00:13:52 <\oren\> b_jonas: Hmm, the kanji are showing up fine on my computer at home and the one at work
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00:17:23 <\oren\> probably the cause of all this crap is that my.css is being cached
00:18:46 <\oren\> I need a way to solve this caching problems for good!
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00:27:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[English]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44564&oldid=44056 * 71.178.9.97 * (+167) /* Compilers */ adding an example of computer programs that can compile English.
00:27:38 <\oren\> hmmm... I'll make a cgi script that can read a filename and some random numbers, and return just the file. Then I can change the random numbers to defeat caching
00:29:20 <doesthiswork> You know how complex numbers are equal if their magnitudes match and their angles match modulo 2pi? If we take out the modulo 2pi part then every number has a single square root
00:30:29 <doesthiswork> what we lose is the ability to add numbers with different angles
00:37:39 <\oren\> doesthiswork: why do we lose that
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00:42:46 <GoToTell> @tell mroman_ http://mathworld.wolfram.com/UniformSumDistribution.html (7) (8) (9)
00:42:52 <doesthiswork> because multiplying just adds the angles, but I'm not sure how to combine them when I add two numbers, so i just leave them separate
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02:00:30 <boily> Oh dear fungot in the sky. Please drive me away from temptation, namely binging on webcomics before going to sleep.
02:00:30 <fungot> boily: to the room of a dwarven assassin who happens. that includes any " wizard formerly known as " eagle-eyed pete" before bozzok caught, we would like my mode of transit returned, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i n
02:00:44 <boily> right, need to check if there were any oots updates lately...
02:03:00 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
02:03:21 <shachaf> fungot: what's with durkon
02:03:21 <fungot> shachaf: we need to get the hell, i rolled a 1 gp fee, we'll get you thinking like a rogue," as " par for my people, i would get the message would actually put us in mortal danger is infinitesimally low.
02:04:31 <boily> hellochaf. there was only one.
02:05:34 <boily> I think I'll succumb to the siren calls of my mattress and be comatose for the next few hours, responsibly like the responsible adult that I am. or something like that to that generic effect.
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04:07:18 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
04:07:55 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
04:12:33 <newsham> what does the style get used for?
04:13:18 <fungot> newsham: stack requirements: 2 2 zero page addressing instructions of the programmer's reference guide at your local dealer, is used in the character shape that you need to test more than one machine language
04:13:38 <fungot> newsham: load"",1,1 ( looks for the target line number value written to tape buffer pointer to the end of each harmonic present is proportional to the screen is divided into two nybbles of each sprite has a keyboard buffer
04:33:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44565&oldid=42292 * Iamevn * (+680) BNFish thing added
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05:46:46 <izabera> followed that link posted by hppavilion[1] and i ended up here http://www.jayconrod.com/posts/35/parsing-keyvalue-pairs-in-bash
05:47:06 <izabera> the rest of the site looks cute, and they have a bash section, and it's pure crap
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06:05:33 <Jafet> fungot: elite funge98 demos
06:05:33 <fungot> Jafet: for best results, the basic rom, or modify program lines give each function name.
06:07:44 <b_jonas> \oren\: put in some HTTP headers. there's like three different ones, and clients and proxies look at different sets
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06:22:46 <Sgeo> https://twitter.com/badedgecases
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06:43:42 <Jafet> Huh, Kiribati and Kiritimati (pronounced "Kiribas" and "Kirismas", naturally) are at UTC+14:00
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07:14:32 <oerjan> @tell izabera *MWAHAHAHA*
07:15:12 <oerjan> and that was even a guest comic
07:25:37 <oerjan> @tell Gregor <gamemanj> `echo `whoami` is on <-- you know it would be brilliant if that (well, corrected) actually gave the nick
07:26:47 <oerjan> might not always fit lexically
07:28:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/c \ wisdom/c# \ wisdom/c++ \ wisdom/cake \ wisdom/cakeprophet \ wisdom/california \ wisdom/can \ wisdom/canada \ wisdom/canary \ wisdom/caps lock \ wisdom/cat \ wisdom/catamorphism \ wisdom/categorical product \ wisdom/category \ wisdom/category-helpdesk \ wisdom/category theory \ wisdom/cello \ wisdom/certainly \ wisdom/certainty \ wisdom/c
07:28:49 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 2 \ 281 \ 285 \ 286 \ 287 \ 288 \ 289 \ 290 \ 291 \ 292 \ 3 \ 4 \ 47 \ 49 \ 5 \ 51 \ 6 \ 68 \ 7 \ 76 \ 77 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpageco
07:29:11 <HackEgo> initrd=/usr/bin/../lib/umlbox/umlbox-initrd.gz ubda=/tmp/16088.conf mem=256M con1=null,fd:3 con2=fd:5,fd:8 con=null,null root=98:0
07:29:22 <oerjan> hmph it's not in there
07:29:53 <HackEgo> Node 0, zone Normal 1 3 1 2 2 4 4 3 2 2 57
07:30:16 <HackEgo> sysemu \ sysrq-trigger \ sysvipc \ timer_list \ tty \ uptime \ version \ vmallocinfo \ vmstat \ zoneinfo
07:30:38 <oerjan> `` ls /proc | tail -30
07:30:38 <HackEgo> ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpagecount \ kpageflags \ loadavg \ locks \ meminfo \ misc \ mounts \ net \ pagetypeinfo \ partitions \ self \ slabinfo \ softirqs \ stat \ sys \ sysemu \ sysrq-trigger \ sysvipc \ timer_list \ tty \ uptime \ version \ vmallocinfo \ vmstat \ zoneinfo
07:30:56 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/seld: No such file or directory
07:30:59 <HackEgo> cat: /proc/self: Is a directory
07:31:16 <HackEgo> auxv \ cgroup \ clear_refs \ cmdline \ comm \ coredump_filter \ cpuset \ cwd \ environ \ exe \ fd \ fdinfo \ limits \ maps \ mem \ mountinfo \ mounts \ mountstats \ net \ ns \ oom_adj \ oom_score \ oom_score_adj \ pagemap \ personality \ root \ smaps \ stat \ statm \ status \ task \ wchan
07:31:56 <oerjan> `cat /proc/self/personality
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07:42:13 <j-bot> oerjan: |value error: help
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07:50:58 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] in absentia for quitting _just_ as he was finishing his message -----###
07:51:20 * oerjan swats that "he" for ambiguity -----###
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08:18:39 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> Oh dear fungot in the sky. Please drive me away from temptation, namely binging on webcomics before going to sleep. <-- most inefficient prayer ever tdnh
08:18:39 <fungot> oerjan: changing banks. once the channel is left out the computer responded with bit 0 for external audio signals, the graphics display is no line x, y is a mistake in your programmable characters in length, and
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08:22:56 <FireFly> fungot: so y is the debugging channel?
08:22:57 <fungot> FireFly: there is a good description of the first 8 pixels is erased: the test is accomplished for voice 1 at location 53276 ( d01c). it is recommended that a high-pass filter reduces the volume of the basic interpreter
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08:27:29 <izabera> does lambdabot accept @messages in pm?
08:30:27 <oerjan> i did that in public anyway
08:32:02 <oerjan> and it was in response to your own
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09:04:54 <mroman_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Golfing_language still only shows GolfScript but there are other pages in that category as well o_O?
09:08:20 <oerjan> i see 5 languages there
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09:09:47 <oerjan> mroman_: iirc there's a bug with the category pages so that only the actual text counts for last modified date, or something
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09:23:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44566&oldid=44533 * 160.85.232.152 * (+12) * programming languages
09:44:06 <mroman_> Do any of you guys have eso programs that produce fibonacci numbers that you'd release into public domain
09:44:13 <mroman_> or were already released into public domain
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10:08:27 <fizzie> <fungot> [...] it is recommended that a high-pass filter reduces the volume of the basic interpreter
10:08:27 <fungot> fizzie: 2) test for the considerations involved), and not in the
10:08:53 <fizzie> fungot: Do you mean the basic interpreter makes a lot of low-frequency noise?
10:08:53 <fungot> fizzie: bits 0-3 listed in the directory entry will read the paddle fire buttons. see entries for the operator to type the following
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10:26:09 <mroman_> and scottish.parliament.uk has a nice "Server Error in '/' Application." error message
10:26:47 <mroman_> ah fuck those fucking javascript links
10:26:59 <mroman_> you can't fucking open them in a new tab
10:28:44 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
10:28:52 <ais523> I'm not used to this fungot style
10:28:53 <fungot> ais523: there are eight sprites, numbered from 0 again, i.e., but doesn't affect the number of times the one's place, then that sprite is 24 by 21 dots high.
10:29:04 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
10:34:09 <fizzie> One problem with it is that I didn't properly fill paragraphs.
10:34:25 <fizzie> So it's prone to stopping in the middle of a
10:34:58 <fizzie> fungot: What's the address to poke for the border color?
10:34:59 <fungot> fizzie: 70 goto 20 get1, a zero, then that character. if the device-number is left off.
10:35:20 <fizzie> That doesn't seem right.
10:35:42 <b_jonas> ais523: I looked at ayacc, and I like how the new style C api can be used re-entrantly without globals. I'm still sort of missing multiple entry points (top level symbols), but I can work that around.
10:35:53 <b_jonas> I'll definitely try to test it.
10:36:01 <ais523> b_jonas: it has multiple entry points
10:36:08 <ais523> just give more than one %start declaration
10:36:13 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, it can do that?
10:36:16 <ais523> you'll get a warning saying that POSIX disallows it, but it'll work
10:36:23 <b_jonas> that wasn't clear from the documentation
10:36:25 <ais523> (the new-style API has the start symbol name in it for a reason)
10:36:29 <ais523> I'm not sure if I've documented that yet
10:36:41 <b_jonas> ah! so "_start" isn't literal, but it's supposed to mean an underscore followed by the start symbol name?
10:37:07 <b_jonas> also, another thing I wanted to ask is,
10:37:47 <b_jonas> you have the -p option to prefix all the exported symbols, or make it static. is there a corresponding declaration for this that you can put right inside the yacc input file?
10:38:23 <ais523> b_jonas: currently no; -p is specified by POSIX, -p from inside the file isn't
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10:39:02 <ais523> what's your use case for that? running "make" to run yacc, without an explicit makefile?
10:39:14 <ais523> or using aimake without an explicit rule to add -p?
10:39:32 <ais523> normally the assumption is that people who write programs have control over the build instructions
10:39:49 <b_jonas> and is there a way you can tell it to put all the symbols inside (a) a C++ namespace or set of nested namespaces, (b) as extern "C"? both of these three is easy, you just have to emit a line of code before your declarations, but after any standard #include lines, plus some closing braces at the end.
10:40:12 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I'm just wondering, the -p option is fine. it's inside a namespace that I'm really wondering about.
10:40:27 <ais523> b_jonas: there isn't currently, although some day there will be
10:40:48 <b_jonas> it just seems strange how some of yacc is controlled from command line and some from the yacc file, and I don't see the logic on what is where.
10:41:54 <ais523> AFAIU, the split should be: the yacc file controls what the parsing algorithm is and the mathematical description of what is being parsed; the command line controls the API from which the parser is called from outside
10:41:57 <b_jonas> So for the re-entrant api, the cookie pointer is passed to the yylex and the yyerror functions that I supply. But how do I access the cookie from braced grammar rules?
10:43:23 <b_jonas> ais523: that could make sense in theory, but in practice I won't be using just a simple mathematically nice grammar, but a grammar that only ayacc thinks is LALR(1), but actually it interacts with the lexer input and the braced blocks in strange ways.
10:43:44 <ais523> b_jonas: well it still lets you know where the API split is
10:44:06 <b_jonas> And in that case, some of the magic is in external source files, some in the grammar rules, and some is in the C code at the beginning of the yacc file.
10:44:21 <ais523> also I don't think brace rules have access to the extra void * at the moment, at least not officially
10:44:30 <ais523> it'd be easy enough to give them access, though
10:44:40 <b_jonas> Please give them access then, I think that would be useful.
10:44:50 <b_jonas> It could be worked around, because the lexer can pass that pointer to it in every symbol,
10:44:59 <b_jonas> but I think the parser already holds that pointer so it's pointless.
10:45:12 <ais523> it actually has a name right now, it's just "internal" and isn't meant to be user-visible
10:46:24 <ais523> "yys.yyp.yylexarg" apparently
10:47:15 <b_jonas> I'd like to use the extra argument because I want to start multiple nested yyparse instances.
10:48:17 <ais523> I guess the correct thing to do here is to add a macro to expose the parameter under a more sensible name
10:48:19 <ais523> do you have one in mind?
10:48:51 <b_jonas> it could have "cookie" or "baton" in it
10:49:10 <ais523> these are weird names to use for the spare void * parameter
10:49:10 <b_jonas> pointers like this are usually called one of "cookie", "baton", "token", or "data", but "data" is stupid, and "token" is confusing in a parser generator
10:49:17 <ais523> normally it's called something along the lines of "arg"
10:49:37 <b_jonas> because "cookie" means it's uninterpreted by you
10:49:48 <b_jonas> "baton" is used because it's something the library "passes on" to you.
10:50:11 <b_jonas> yeah, "arg" is almost as bad as "data"
10:50:17 <b_jonas> there's also "environment" or similar
10:50:17 <ais523> my understanding of a "cookie" or "magic cookie" is a special meaningless value that you use as a confirmation
10:50:33 <ais523> sort-of like paranoid_quit but for programs
10:50:45 <b_jonas> um, I think that's "magic value"
10:50:51 <b_jonas> I didn't know it was called for cookie
10:51:30 <ais523> sort-of like the way that reboot(2) requires its first two arguments to be 4276215469 and 677274793, in an attempt to reduce the potential impact of undefined behaviour
10:51:56 <ais523> (a few other options are now available for the second argument; they're used to commemorate important events in Linux's history)
10:52:15 <b_jonas> ais523: there's such things used in data structures to check for accidental memory corruption or invalid pointers
10:52:32 <b_jonas> plus there's also "canary" or "sentinel" bytes used for detecting overwriting past the end of a buffer
10:52:38 <b_jonas> "canary" to detect corruption early
10:52:53 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_cookie
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10:53:28 <ais523> right, a canary is a value whose purpose is to detect being overwritten
10:53:49 <b_jonas> ais523: a HTTP cookie doesn't mean this though, it just contains a value that isn't interpreted by the HTTP client, but is passed back to the HTTP server
10:54:10 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia's definition of a magic cookie is more general than mine and less general than yours
10:54:23 <b_jonas> is any of these apart from "token" used in some meaning related to parsers? if a word is, we should avoid it
10:54:27 <ais523> it's basically a value that's treated like a handle: the value is used to distinguish between different callers
10:55:37 <ais523> Windows uses handles a lot
10:57:03 <b_jonas> let me check some libraries for what they use
10:58:38 <ais523> (that was the first function with a callback-style void * that came to mind)
10:59:15 <b_jonas> it seems lua doesn't have a C cookie associated with C functions (that is, lua functions implemented in C), but it lets the function have lua upvalues, and some of those lua upvalues can be "light userdata", that is, C pointers. however, the memory allocator function does have a cookie argument, and it's called variously "ud" and "ptr".
10:59:35 <b_jonas> I'll have to check sqlite3, it has some cookies
11:01:42 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 43m 3s ago: <boily> Oh dear fungot in the sky. Please drive me away from temptation, namely binging on webcomics before going to sleep. <-- most inefficient prayer ever tdnh
11:02:30 <boily> @tell oerjan fungot answers me. fungot is great. fungot fungot fungot ♪
11:02:30 <fungot> boily: os pointer to point to the 6510 at addresses 53248-57343 ( d000-dfff). specialized control circuitry minimizes software overhead, facilitating use in the sprite shape data in files, so that break points may be an input/ output operations. the
11:03:31 <int-e> fungot: stop almost making sense already
11:03:32 <fungot> int-e: examples: 100*2 50*0 a*x1 r%*14 print 43648 program text. once read, and
11:04:18 <b_jonas> http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/8/86/Cookie_Crumbles_ID_S4E23.png/revision/latest?cb=20140614061241 cookies
11:04:31 <b_jonas> sorry, that's not relevant to the discussion
11:04:45 <int-e> somewhat disturbingly, it got the decimal/hex conversion correct (probably unique tokens, but still).
11:05:45 <int-e> . o O ( Cookie grammar: Cookies go well *with* tea, not *in* tea. )
11:05:56 <boily> b_jhellonas. it's a poney cookie. or a cookie poney.
11:06:10 <b_jonas> fungot, what's 380°F in celsius scale?
11:06:10 <fungot> b_jonas: 1) can be held to 0 of the commodore 64 program cartridge. you must first choose a location as a single value which the
11:06:29 <int-e> your poney sounds phoney
11:06:53 <boily> the fungot hasn't loaded the proper cartridge to convert temperatures.
11:06:53 <fungot> boily: last key pressed. if future changes are made available by altering the contents of the 1k chunk of memory
11:06:58 <int-e> @google 380°F in °C
11:07:00 <lambdabot> http://checkpriceonline.tk/termometro-infrarossi-puntatore-laser-50-380-digitale-modello-1-koka69946/
11:07:00 <lambdabot> Title: Buy Cheap Best TERMOMETRO INFRAROSSI PUNTATORE LASER -50°/380°DIGITALE ...
11:07:09 <lambdabot> https://www.evi.com/q/380_fahrenheit_to_celsius
11:07:16 <boily> oh the unicodity...
11:07:45 <int-e> the first hit is disturbing
11:08:11 <lambdabot> http://www.slate.com/articles/health_and_science/explainer/2012/06/ray_bradbury_death_does_paper_really_burn_at_451_degrees_fahrenheit_.html
11:08:11 <lambdabot> Title: Ray Bradbury Death: Does paper really burn at 451 degrees Fahrenheit?
11:08:14 <b_jonas> sqlite3 calls it at least user_data (as in sqlite3_user_data to query it) and pApp (but it uses crazy prefixed names like that for most non-public api symbols), pArg, and sometimes simply unnamed because it appears only as a function parameter
11:09:05 <b_jonas> libev specifically calls it "data"
11:09:28 <b_jonas> sqlite3 also calls it pAppData in a public (but not mandatory) api
11:12:26 <b_jonas> ok, so in sqlite3 they just use random names for this
11:13:00 <b_jonas> and even random interfaces: some functions (deallocators of structures you allocate yourself) don't get a cookie at all, some get a cookie pointer passed to it, and some have to call a function to get their cookie pointer.
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11:13:40 <b_jonas> if "cookie" is ambiguous, how about "baton"? does that have other meanings?
11:15:24 <nooga> I just had this idea for a language, which compiler would assume that every programmers statement is a lie, and there would be a keyword "srsly" which would mark statement as not-lie
11:15:34 <nooga> but the compiler wouldn't trust the keyword
11:15:46 <nooga> so it would have to solve liars paradox in compile time
11:15:53 <nooga> and would ask questions to the programmer
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12:12:23 <mroman_> anybody experience with mod_rewrite
12:12:32 <mroman_> it dosen't accept my (.*)$ rule apparantely
12:14:11 <mroman_> but you can match ^api/(.*)$ hm...
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12:19:55 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, I'd say yybaton then, unless baton also has some other meaning
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12:20:27 <ais523> b_jonas: the problem is that "baton" isn't commonly used for this sort of argument
12:20:34 <ais523> I'd probably just call it "arg", maybe with a qualifier
12:20:40 <ais523> because that seems to be what everyone else calls it
12:21:44 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it is used somewhere, let me check
12:27:10 <b_jonas> ais523: I think libsvn (subversion C api) uses "baton", but I don't know if that appears in the api names, or only the docs or function argument names
12:27:27 <ais523> maybe even call it yyvoidstar
12:27:34 <ais523> because "the void * argument" is the standard name for it in conversation
12:27:41 <b_jonas> ais523: you can call it yyuserdata but I don't much like that
12:27:56 <ais523> hmm, I like that better than "baton" at least
12:28:14 <b_jonas> or yycontext, yyupvalue, yycontinuation, yyenvironment
12:29:03 <b_jonas> "userdata" is used, but not quite in this context, but in C structures that you may want to extend with your own data, but they're mallocated by the library so you can't just inherit from them
12:29:24 <b_jonas> used this way by the gnome people that is
12:30:02 <b_jonas> gnome as in the group of libraries, not as a race
12:30:17 <ais523> "continuation" is completely wrong, a continuation is basically the functional version of a goto
12:30:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think anyone would have interpreted that as being about gnomes the mythological creatures
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12:30:53 * ais523 wonders if GNOME is at all related to ELF and DWARF, or if it's just a coincidence
12:31:12 <b_jonas> I think DWARF is related to ELF
12:31:21 <b_jonas> I don't know about GNOME, but I think it's related to GNU
12:32:02 <b_jonas> isn't gnome very old, as in, it might predate the use of ELF on linux?
12:32:23 <ais523> Linux used something before ELF?
12:32:34 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but that was way before I started with linux
12:33:02 <b_jonas> when I started with linux, it already used only ELF, and the a.out stuff is for compatibility in the kernel and binutils only. nobody even has a.out libc so you can't actually run a.out programs.
12:33:03 <ais523> you see occasional references to the a.out format in manpages, that's how I know about it
12:33:15 <ais523> (it is quite confusing that it has the same name as the default output file from cc)
12:34:03 <b_jonas> basically the linux libc started in a.out, then it jumped to ELF, at which point it got renamed to gnu libc AND glibc AND libc 2.*, and they used it to break binary compatibility, which is generally a useful thing to do sometimes with libc to get rid of badly designed crap, and should be done more often
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12:55:51 <fizzie> I remember Slackware doing the libc5 to glibc switch, and it was somewhat messy.
12:56:49 <mroman_> http://mroman.ch/testmoo/api/H/default meep :)
12:57:16 <fizzie> As for GNOME/ELF, I don't know if they're related or whether GNOME predates widespread ELF-on-Linux, but it certainly doesn't predate ELF itself.
12:58:16 <fizzie> Also I didn't know it no longer stands for "GNU Network Object Model Environment" at all, like it used to.
12:58:42 <b_jonas> I'm young enough that I don't remember that, I'm quite sure that the first linux I installed already used elf, by far.
12:59:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: GCC has been reacronymmed too
12:59:16 <b_jonas> it's now "GNU compiler collection" instead of "GNU C compiler"
12:59:37 <fizzie> That I did know about. Makes sense.
12:59:51 <fizzie> As far as I can tell, GNOME no longer stands for anything.
12:59:52 <ais523> because it compiles other languages too
13:00:14 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and it's even written in C++ now
13:00:46 <b_jonas> it's been compiling C++ and fortran and objective C and ada for quite a long time
13:01:13 <b_jonas> though I always installed it without most of the extra languages, enabling only C, C++, and sometimes fortran
13:01:27 <b_jonas> I don't need to compile the rest
13:05:43 <FreeFull> Linux is still capable of running a.out programs with an extra module loaded
13:06:57 <ais523> and, presumably, libc…3? installed
13:07:02 <b_jonas> FreeFull: yes, the kernel is, but you need an a.out libc and possibly other a.out libraries
13:07:05 <ais523> I know we're on libc6 atm
13:07:05 <b_jonas> which you don't usually have
13:10:47 <mroman_> ``curl -i -v -X POST -d 'code=iooo' http://mroman.ch/testmoo/api/deadfish/default
13:10:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `curl: not found
13:11:02 <mroman_> `run curl -i -v -X POST -d 'code=iooo' http://mroman.ch/testmoo/api/deadfish/default
13:11:03 <HackEgo> * About to connect() to proxy 127.0.0.1 port 3128 (#0) \ * Trying 127.0.0.1... \ Failed to connect to socket 2. \ % Total % Received % Xferd Average Speed Time Time Time Current \ Dload Upload Total Spent Left Speed \
13:11:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `history: not found
13:12:02 <mroman_> `run curl -X POST -d 'code=iooo' http://mroman.ch/testmoo/api/deadfish/default
13:12:03 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
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13:14:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I think http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/ is somewhat similar to those strange small M:tG formats we were discussing.
13:14:52 <ais523> that link goes to mezzacotta, and so is probably worth clicking on
13:15:25 <ais523> b_jonas: this reminds me, there's a thread on Wizard's forums somewhere about the largest finite combo in magic
13:15:30 <ais523> and those forums are going to shut down soon
13:15:39 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's linked from the IWC news snippet right now
13:16:06 <ais523> it uses Knuth up-arrow notation
13:16:10 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, the forum will be shut down. that's a bit sad. apparently they're going to delete the whole thing, rather than make it unwritable except for admins.
13:16:22 <ais523> http://community.wizards.com/content/forum-topic/2820281
13:16:47 <b_jonas> ais523: that's probably big, yes
13:17:47 <mroman_> wget doesn't work either on hackego
13:18:19 <ais523> that thread has smaller numbers than I remember
13:18:25 <b_jonas> though I think you'll need a very specific definition for "infinite combo" for this, and that definition would be difficult because of underspecified rules and computability bounds
13:18:56 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not saying because of the threads, it's just that I think a large finite combo in M:tG can probably be very large.
13:19:20 <b_jonas> it's just that you rarely need to set up such a thing, because "small" finite combos or infinite combos are usually sufficient
13:20:41 <ais523> aha: this is what really sparked it off: http://www.soniccenter.org/sm/mtg/megacombo.html
13:20:50 <ais523> and this is the resulting forum thread: http://community.wizards.com/forum/cards-and-combos/threads/2230096
13:21:43 <b_jonas> I mean, attacking with 1000 4/5 green elf warrior tokens is enough, I don't generally need more. Or spending exactly 100 mana for Helix Pinnacle, and then surviving till next upkeep with like a dozen expensive defensive spells.
13:22:09 <b_jonas> And infinite combos are generally easier to set up than such big finite combos.
13:22:31 <ais523> oh good, they migrated to mtgsalvation: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite
13:22:41 <ais523> (mostly relevant because that's a forum that /isn't/ going to go down in a few weeks)
13:23:41 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, can you use a combo for that that creates infinite mana, if you're very careful that the cards can't convert it to infinite damage to the opponent?
13:24:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DewiIoan * New user account
13:24:28 <ais523> b_jonas: you probably /could/ but it'd be less efficient because it reduces the number of things that you can use to add on exponents
13:24:37 <ais523> I do not have a good feeling about that username
13:24:41 <ais523> but let's see what it does first
13:25:23 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean, you might need lots of mana (at least lots of colorless mana, or mana of some color(s)), and it can be easier to get infinite mana than to get a thousand mana sometimes;
13:25:36 <b_jonas> though with some combos, you can regain more and more mana as you continue, so you might not need it.
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13:26:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:True]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44567&oldid=30804 * DewiIoan * (+213)
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13:29:06 <b_jonas> I don't see how this goldfish draft can work:
13:29:15 <b_jonas> it points out that "Note also that many times your deck will be unimaginably large, containing many powers of ten worth of basic lands to support engines that draw ridiculous amounts of cards."
13:29:41 <b_jonas> can't you sometimes set up a simple combo that deals one damage for each basic land in your deck, minus a few?
13:30:20 <b_jonas> oh, maybe that would count as an infinite combo
13:31:02 <ais523> b_jonas: I think it counts as an infinite combo, yes
13:31:11 <ais523> "could have performed", you could have put more lands in
13:33:54 <b_jonas> yes, but that's an action you perform during deck building, not during the game. you also could have drafted other cards.
13:34:29 <b_jonas> So I'm not sure it's in scope for that rule.
13:40:19 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, many of these maximum non-infinite combos use different /colours/ of mana to give themselves higher numbers
13:40:25 <ais523> e.g. can convert red mana to green hyperexponentially
13:43:10 <b_jonas> if I played my elf deck against a goldfish with the deck ordered, then it could go singly exponential, though I'd probably have to modify it if I wanted it to be more effective in this kind of thing
13:44:41 <b_jonas> hmm, ok, maybe it couldn't go exponential
13:44:46 <b_jonas> I'd have to modify it a bit for that
13:46:50 <ais523> hmm, one of the largest three-card combos available here is apparently casting twinflame on as many targets as possible, then redirecting all the targets onto doubling season
13:47:56 <b_jonas> why do you need to redirect? isn't there something that copies the spell for each available target?
13:48:05 <b_jonas> oh, maybe that's what you mean
14:04:09 <b_jonas> and that other combo is only exponential
14:04:27 <b_jonas> I should try to make something faster growing than just exponential
14:04:40 <b_jonas> oh, it would be double exponential
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14:14:52 <ais523> b_jonas: haha, I've now reached the stage of the chronology of this thing where they'd run out of colours and were using /snow/ mana
14:15:42 <ais523> and they're now using right-arrow notation rather than up-arrow notation
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14:16:39 <b_jonas> ais523: is it possible to use copies of Rings of Brighthearth rather than copies of Doubling Season?
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14:16:47 <b_jonas> mroman_: anchor to beginning of input string
14:16:48 <b_jonas> ais523: is it possible to use copies of Rings of Brighthearth rather than copies of Doubling Season?
14:16:59 <ais523> mroman: beginning of the string, even if ^ is redefined
14:17:11 <ais523> see "man perlrebackslash
14:17:17 <ais523> mroman_: to match newlines and the like
14:23:34 <b_jonas> ais523: and yes, up arrow notation can describe "small" combos, eg. you'd use N up arrows to describe a combo using N+O(1) resources such that each of them can be be spent on doubling your amount of the next resouce; for things like doubling the same resource with itself such as with Doubling Season, you need right arrow notation or some other Ackerman function.
14:23:55 <b_jonas> up arrow notation is enough for such a big combo
14:24:01 <b_jonas> argh these big numbers always confuse me
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14:45:29 <Vorpal> Does anyone know if there is a way in gdb to set the ulimits for the process you debug? I can't set it before starting gdb, because then gdb fails
14:45:54 <Vorpal> I guess I could patch in a call to setrlimit() or whatever in the debugged program, but surely there has to be a better way?
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15:10:08 <Taneb> I REALLY need to become less absent-minded
15:10:14 <Taneb> Very nearly lost my new laptop
15:10:20 <Taneb> Because I left it at a bus stop
15:10:30 <Taneb> On the way to collect my glasses, which I had left in a cafe yesterday
15:11:05 <coppro> Vorpal: print setrlimit(...)
15:15:27 <Taneb> Does anyone have any advice for being less absent-minded
15:15:43 <ais523> Taneb: I suggest minimizing the consequences of being absent-minded, instead
15:15:53 <ais523> for example you could physically tie the laptop bag to your body (e.g. with a piece of string)
15:16:28 <Taneb> Now I just need to remember where I put my string!
15:17:56 <mroman_> I regularly forget to turn my water heater on
15:18:01 <mroman_> and then I try to make tea with cold water
15:19:20 <fizzie> While 'print' probably works, gdb also has a 'call' command that I think is more semantically appropriate.
15:20:02 <ais523> I thought "print" was standard for this sort of thing
15:21:48 <fizzie> I've always used "call".
15:22:17 <fizzie> It also prints the result, so there's probably not that much difference.
15:22:27 <fizzie> Won't take all those print options, though.
15:26:07 <izabera> this means it's chick flick week
15:26:20 <Vorpal> coppro, ooh, good idea
15:27:14 <izabera> let's watch devil wears prada together
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15:42:11 <ais523> "(This notation can also be extended to expressions that use 3 or more right arrows, but those are beyond the scope of this page, and I doubt the system of Magic will ever be expressive enough to include the types of constructs that would call for their use, outside of cases that truly do go infinite.)"
15:44:20 <ais523> the current research is trying to maximize the number of right arrows that can be used
15:44:49 <b_jonas> ais523: well, we can probably simulate any computable algorithm, and make it output damage, though it may require more than 60 cards, more than one player, or more than a few turns to set up
15:46:11 <ais523> b_jonas: assuming the bug in the stackflow construction is fixed, you can, and you can even set it up on turn 1 of a 2p game; the problem is that you could also set up an infinite loop the same way
15:46:26 <ais523> sure, you can write a busy beaver program, but nothing's preventing you writing an infinite loop instead
15:46:32 <b_jonas> ais523: would that work against a goldfish opponent?
15:47:01 <b_jonas> yes, I guess you probably don't need more than one turn
15:47:02 <ais523> it's set up so that it also works even against a non-goldfish opponent (assuming you go first and they don't have force of will or equivalent)
15:47:19 <ais523> via the standard turn 1 combo techniques (black lotus into show and tell into omniscience into enter the infinite, etc.)
15:47:21 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but I mean, it doesn't require specific cards in the opponent's deck or something
15:47:41 <ais523> it needs the opponent to control certain cards, but there's always Donate
15:48:01 <b_jonas> if they only have to control permanents or tokens, yes
15:49:38 <ais523> <spambot> This week offer: Only 17.99 usd to rank your site in top 999.999 Alexa
15:49:44 <ais523> is that a decimal point or a comma?
15:49:51 <ais523> if a decimal point, I don't believe it
15:50:36 <ais523> (also clearly such spambots work, if they work at all, by manipulating alexa toolbar submissions rather than actually driving viewers to your site)
15:51:50 <b_jonas> wants to maximize the number of right arrows? that sounds scary
15:52:18 <b_jonas> wanting to maximize the number of up arrows, I can see that
15:52:40 <ais523> b_jonas: it's much harder to get a right arrow
15:53:01 <ais523> they mostly involve 3- or 4-card combos that trigger off a particular basic landcycling effect
15:53:45 <b_jonas> getting three right arrows already sounds impossible (unless the numbers are trivially small so they simplify to two arrows with reasonably non-big numbers)
15:54:04 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure how this right arrow notation works
15:54:19 <b_jonas> though I at least know where to find descriptions of these strange notations
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15:56:51 <b_jonas> there's a nice answer on MathOverflow that's impressed me. someone asked a slightly underspecified but reasonable question, so I answered one interpretation, because you can obviously modify that answer for other reasonable similar interpretations. but then someone gave an algebraist answer, generalizing the problem a lot with higher-order functions and explicitly listed conditions so that his proof covers probably all reasonable interpretations.
15:57:19 <b_jonas> the underspecified part was "Ackermann function", of which there's multiple definitions
15:57:31 <b_jonas> so he proved it for all "Ackermann-like functions" generally
15:58:38 <ais523> b_jonas: here's the basis behind the Ackermann combo (the particular deck provided is potentially broken, but the fundamental behind the combo is sound): http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/magic-fundamentals/magic-general/615089-most-turn-1-damage-in-a-deck-with-no-infinite?page=2#c41
16:00:21 <ais523> the current record is based on trying to find a separate Ackermann combo for each colour of mana (including snow)
16:01:22 <b_jonas> can you use mana with strange restrictions, especially from evolved Sliver Hive?
16:01:33 <ais523> well they're also running out of deck space as it is
16:01:45 <b_jonas> yes, I guess that would be a problem
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16:02:05 <b_jonas> but I'm asking about Sliver Hive because maybe you can Artificially Evolve it to multiple creature types
16:02:18 <ais523> the ackermann combos are a lot less efficient than the merely exponential combos, in terms of deck space
16:02:23 <b_jonas> though it might be hard to make it non-infinite if you can copy stuff that much
16:02:24 <ais523> (although who cares, they have a /way/ higher complexity)
16:02:41 <ais523> also Artifical Evolution is much too easy to create loops with
16:03:07 <Phantom_Hoover> someone linked these on another channel http://parsleysagerosemarytimemachine.tumblr.com/post/130181748287/so-i-might-have-stayed-up-late-tonight-creating
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16:04:18 <ais523> that's just a text post
16:04:41 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and part of the problem is that you may need a lot of mana to start some of these loops, but you probably don't want infinite mana, or at least not of all colors
16:04:44 <Phantom_Hoover> no it's not? the card images are loading for me at least
16:04:49 <ais523> and really, M:tG is a cross between a card game and a programming language, only the card game is incredibly expensive (because it's only provided as randomized subsets)
16:05:12 <ais523> b_jonas: I believe the standard is to allow unlimited colorless mana, and restrict the usage of each individual colour
16:05:29 <ais523> (the colorless isn't technically "infinite", but rather generated in quantities greater than you need during the combo using Mana Echoes)
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16:05:54 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but then you may still need like a hundred colored mana just to play fourty cards to set up multiple combos
16:06:08 <b_jonas> ok, probably not a hundred
16:06:59 <ais523> it works out really neatly, because it lets you play any spells you like, but doesn't pay for abilities
16:07:21 <b_jonas> of course you have to be careful not to allow playing spells infinitely then
16:08:08 <b_jonas> ais523: what's the rules for this again? vintage legal deck of 60 cards, against goldfish, and any number of turns?
16:08:40 <b_jonas> oh, and rules about the opponent not losing from the life loss probably.
16:08:54 <b_jonas> do you have to deal the damage to the opponent?
16:08:54 <ais523> b_jonas: 60 cards, no sideboard (or other cards outside the game), no bans, 4-of limit, do as much damage as you can turn 1 against a goldfish, the goldfish /does/ lose from life loss so you want to do it all as one chunk
16:09:14 <ais523> also the goldfish's deck consists of 60 basic lands (this is actually relevant sometimes)
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16:09:55 <b_jonas> well, I guess the losing from life loss isn't that much of a limitation
16:09:58 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it was proven TC ages ago
16:10:06 <ais523> the new problem has been trying to prove it TC with no choices made by the players
16:10:17 <b_jonas> because you can make him unable to lose, temporarily, with that demon thing
16:10:25 <ais523> (i.e. there is no way to stop the game calculating arbitrary Turing-complete calculations no matter what the players do, other than conceding)
16:10:49 <ais523> b_jonas: that'd work too but it costs a card
16:11:09 <Taneb> ais523: would a helplessly TC MtG imply a situation when the game is proven to have ended but the winner is undecidable?
16:11:10 <b_jonas> depending on what you pack
16:11:29 <b_jonas> ais523: though it can also help if you cause the opponent to draw repeatedly, and use that to get a number 60
16:12:04 <ais523> is it possible to make it formally undecidable?
16:12:27 <ais523> I guess not, you can't simulate the rules of M:tG in M:tG itself because of the rule that says infinite loop = draw requires a halting oracle
16:12:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it can be undecidable between you winning and a draw
16:12:55 <ais523> unless there's some way to use Shaharazad in order to make the result of a subgame observable and construct a halting oracle that way
16:12:57 <b_jonas> ais523: you don't have to simulate the rules of M:tG, you only have to simulate some known undecidable problem
16:13:24 <ais523> b_jonas: there are no known undecidable problems that don't rely on the details of the axioms used to decide them, though
16:13:53 <b_jonas> ais523: and I think because of the infinite loop rule, if you make it so that you're allowed to make the choice of where to stop, or allowed to choose the amount of fuel before the start, you can make it so that it's definitely not a draw, but undecidable between you winning and the other player winning.
16:14:11 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but the axioms are the ZFC axioms, not related to M:tG
16:14:22 <b_jonas> or even some axioms weaker than ZFC
16:14:54 <b_jonas> so you simulate a program that searches for a ZFC proof for a statement that says "I do not have a proof in ZFC"
16:15:12 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but there is no such statement
16:15:13 <b_jonas> then this program won't halt, but you can't prove that in ZFC
16:15:31 <b_jonas> you can construct one with quining
16:15:38 <ais523> err, I meant no such proof
16:15:45 <ais523> ZFC is believed to be consistent, right?
16:15:53 <b_jonas> yes, we have to assume it's consistent
16:15:59 <Taneb> Believed to be consistent does not mean that it is consistent
16:16:01 <ais523> if such a proof existed, then it would prove a false statement
16:16:08 <ais523> well, let me put it this way
16:16:33 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but you can't prove in ZFC that it doesn't have a proof, which means ZFC can't prove that the loop will never terminate,
16:16:38 <ais523> if we construct an M:tG game that bruteforces ZFC, looking for a proof of "this statement has no proof"
16:16:40 <b_jonas> so in the end you get a match for which you can't prove who wins
16:16:57 <ais523> it's impossilbe to prove /in ZFC/ that it won't find one
16:17:03 <ais523> however, Magic judges are not bound by the rules of ZFC
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16:17:24 <ais523> and thus, being human, they can do the reasoning we've done above and determine that no proof will be found, thus the program is a draw
16:17:52 <b_jonas> sure, the Magic judges are bound by the tournament rules, and they'll kick you out of the tournament when you're less than one percent into explaining all the details of how your complicated combo works, or before that if your deck is so large you can't shuffle it.
16:18:17 <b_jonas> you probably can't even set up all your combo in a tournament, because you'll be punished for stalling the time unnecessarily, when you could just win the game instead.
16:18:29 <ais523> b_jonas: anyway, I'm thinking about it like this
16:18:45 <shachaf> ais523: what if someone encodes the statement "Magic: the Gathering judges cannot consistently affirm this statement"?
16:18:47 <ais523> there is currently a halting oracle in the rules that says that nonterminating game with no ability to disrupt it = draw, right?
16:18:57 <ais523> shachaf: that needs a model of human behaviour
16:19:03 <ais523> however, I think you can get a contradiction here
16:19:16 <ais523> subgames allow a win/draw/loss to be observable
16:19:32 <ais523> we already know that if we reach a situation that a) does not allow the stack to clear, and b) does not give anyone any choices until the stack clears
16:19:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, chess is way more finite on a finite board. infinite board has some interesting research though, involving large countable cardinal numbers and such.
16:19:39 <ais523> then the game is necessarily an instant win, loss, or draw
16:20:00 <Vorpal> ais523, ooh, is MtG TC?
16:20:03 <ais523> with a subgame, we may be able to determine which (it'll take some care to figure out how much life players have but that shouldn't be impossible)
16:20:11 <ais523> actually we think it might be higher
16:20:11 <b_jonas> ais523: there's no way you can force the subgame to behave exactly the way you want with a setup before it
16:20:18 <b_jonas> not without allowing decisions
16:20:34 <ais523> I'm not 100% convinced, although it might require more than a 60-card deck
16:20:50 <b_jonas> ais523: higher than 60 card isn't much of a problem
16:20:50 <ais523> ooh, what about using Lich's Mirror instead? although that doesn't trigger on draws
16:20:57 <Vorpal> ais523, how can it be higher than TC?
16:21:03 <ais523> Vorpal: there's a halting oracle
16:21:12 <b_jonas> a very few actual reasonable to play builds require more than 60 cards
16:21:16 <Vorpal> well... good luck with that
16:21:18 <ais523> we're trying to figure out a way to see if that halting oracle is accessible from within the game itself
16:21:25 <b_jonas> so more than 60 card isn't a problem for a tournament itself
16:21:29 <ais523> the ideal would be to set up a contradiction in which the game halts if and only if it doesn't halt
16:21:48 <b_jonas> ais523: the problem about that is that the halting oracle is underspecified in two ways
16:22:02 <ais523> which may /finally/ persuade the M:tG rules people to fix their rules on infinite loops
16:22:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think it can be fixed completely
16:22:17 <b_jonas> some parts of it can be fixed, sure
16:22:24 <ais523> b_jonas: what do you think are the underspecifications in the halting oracle?
16:22:37 <b_jonas> ais523: the lesser problem is not in the halting oracle, but how it's used,
16:23:08 <b_jonas> wait, let me read the rules, I don't remember exactly
16:23:26 <ais523> b_jonas: here's a potential fix: "if an apparent infinite loop occurs, each player may either offer a draw or name a number of iterations; if both players offer a draw, the game is drawn; otherwise, if the loop continues for more than the stated number of iterations, the player who offered that number of iterations loses"
16:23:43 <Vorpal> <ais523> which may /finally/ persuade the M:tG rules people to fix their rules on infinite loops <-- they don't do it like chess? IIRC that is like "if the same position is repeated more than 3 times, the game is a draw"?
16:23:51 <ais523> that gives you a primitive recursive oracle
16:24:02 <ais523> Vorpal: Magic has an unbounded number of possible positions
16:24:06 <Taneb> ais523: that allows both players to lose
16:24:25 <ais523> Taneb: that can already happen in normal gameplay (e.g. rakdos charm)
16:24:47 <b_jonas> ais523: I think the underspecification is about what actions you must perform to break a loop
16:25:07 <ais523> b_jonas: ah right; the rules do require you to break a loop if you can, but leave it unclear as to precisely what that means
16:25:24 <b_jonas> ais523: eg. I think the rules say you don't have to cast Terror just to break an infinite loop involving creates an opponent sets up
16:25:26 <ais523> I think the conventional wisdom is that they require you to not play abilities/spells that are keeping the loop going
16:25:27 <Vorpal> ais523, what happens when your deck runs out?
16:25:44 <b_jonas> the rule is 716.5 in some version
16:25:45 <ais523> but don't require you to play abilities/spells that aren't part of the loop just for the purpose of disrupting it
16:25:53 <ais523> Vorpal: you lose if you try to draw a card from an empty deck
16:25:56 <b_jonas> "No player can be forced to perform an action that would end a loop other than actions called for by objects involved in the loop."
16:25:59 <Vorpal> b_jonas, that is a lot of rules
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16:26:06 <ais523> Vorpal: they aren't numbered consecutively
16:26:14 <ais523> every now and then it skips to the next multiple of 100
16:26:15 <Vorpal> ais523, so, won't that limit the game length?
16:26:24 <ais523> Vorpal: you can recycle cards back into the deck
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16:26:35 <ais523> also, the setups we're talking about typically all happen on turn 1
16:27:03 <Vorpal> ais523, I never played MtG, but I believe heartstone for example will definitely be limited due to this
16:27:15 <Vorpal> ais523, so it is infinite in a single turn?
16:27:18 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, can you set up a loop where only the opponent can make (meaningful) choices, and to break the loop, he is required to perform some very hard cryptographic NP problem, like factoring a huge composite number or finding a string with a given sha-1 sum?
16:27:28 <ais523> Vorpal: hearthstone is very different than M:tG in this case, because hearthstone doesn't have the instants/responding mechanic
16:27:44 <ais523> which is heavily involved in my combo
16:27:57 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, beautiful
16:28:10 <ais523> the answer is probably yes, I can envisage some way to add input to StackFlow
16:28:20 <b_jonas> and I mean using repeatedly such kinds of decisions where the opponent is required to choose to break the loop, such as a "an opponent sacrifices a creature" where he has two creatures he could choose
16:28:35 <Vorpal> ais523, oh that is right... Doesn't MtG have ways to interrupt what the opponent is doing? This is what you refer to?
16:28:53 <ais523> also yourself, which is less useful except when setting up stupid combos
16:29:01 <Vorpal> ais523, and they don't limit the "recursion depth" of that?
16:29:19 <ais523> the http://esolangs.org/wiki/StackFlow combo ends up setting up a self-sustaining loop that repeatedly interrupts itself
16:29:24 <ais523> without any human interaction
16:29:31 <b_jonas> Vorpal: sure, but you'd set up the loop in such a way that he doesn't have the resources to interrupt the game in any way, such as make sure he has no cards in the hand, no abilities he can activate, doesn't ever get priority or turn start during the loop, etc
16:30:00 <b_jonas> Vorpal: the only thing they are still allowed to do is to concede the game, which any player can do any time, but it immediately causes them to lose the game in an unreversable manner
16:30:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I wonder if such a crypto challenge would force the opponent to concede the game
16:30:39 <b_jonas> maybe they could take a shortcut if they can prove there is a solution?
16:30:53 <ais523> I thought such controversial shortcuts had to be agreed by both players
16:30:59 <b_jonas> like, if they prove the number is composite, they can just describe how they make the right actions
16:31:22 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think they have to. they have to be agreed in that he can't tell what decisions _you_ will make, if you're allowed choices
16:31:29 <ais523> also, even proving a large composite number composite is hard if you don't happen to hit it with one of the probabilistic prime tests, which are hard to do in your test
16:31:32 <b_jonas> he just have to prove the judge that wit works
16:31:41 <ais523> what's the largest known composite strong pseudoprime?
16:31:54 <b_jonas> ais523: we have deterministic (but slow) prime tests now,
16:32:13 <ais523> b_jonas: we had deterministic but slow prime tests even beforehand
16:32:13 <b_jonas> you can't run a prime test on a big number in your head
16:32:26 <ais523> the difference is that they're now polynomial (specifically sextic) rather than exponential
16:32:41 <Vorpal> ais523, presumably this will require a lot of luck for you to get the right cards in the hand at the same time?
16:32:53 <b_jonas> still, you can probably set up a problem where he can't even determine polynomiallly whether there's a solution, and there's half a chance that there's a solution
16:33:30 <ais523> Vorpal: there are "universal combo setups" that let you start off any combo you like with maybe about 5-10% probability, even against an opponent who is trying to stop you
16:34:01 <Vorpal> I think MtG has some issues as a game that needs to be ironed out
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16:34:20 <b_jonas> ais523: start when, your first turn, or the upkeep of an opponent that goes first?
16:34:38 <b_jonas> ais523: and are these Vintage-legal, or do they instead involve four Black lotuses?
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16:34:43 <ais523> b_jonas: the ones I know are on your own turn, and Legacy-legal
16:34:51 <ais523> although Vintage makes it easier because of moxen
16:34:58 <ais523> actually I don't really know any of them
16:35:03 <ais523> I believe it's also doable in Modern, although harder still of course
16:35:15 <ais523> b_jonas: also it's not necessarily turn 1
16:35:22 <b_jonas> that sounds hard because of how many things an opponent can do, with their Simian Spirit Guides
16:35:33 <ais523> oh, I meant against typical opponents
16:35:38 <ais523> not ones which are specifically anti-metagaming your deck
16:35:41 <b_jonas> oh, only against typical ones?
16:35:46 <b_jonas> sure, then it is certainly possible
16:35:52 <ais523> actually, if you look at Legacy Omnitell, that's pretty close to a universal combo setup as is
16:36:08 <Vorpal> ais523, why markdown? :(
16:36:24 <ais523> Vorpal: because I'm still an esolanger :-)
16:36:42 <b_jonas> can you combo into a state where you can even let the opponent take any number turns alternating with you, and he still can't do anything to disrupt you?
16:36:47 <ais523> I did acknowledge that it was an inappropriate syntax
16:36:53 <b_jonas> or, say, at least a few thousand turns
16:37:10 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, the normal approaches involve either controlling the top of the opponent's library, or Shared Fate
16:37:13 <Vorpal> ais523, I just want to see Literate StackFlow now.
16:37:23 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, or just repeated controlling the opponent's turn
16:37:26 <ais523> (the Shared Fate Modern deck is probably tier 3, but hilarious)
16:37:31 <ais523> b_jonas: then the opponent isn't really taking turns
16:37:49 <b_jonas> sounds funny in this context
16:39:23 <Vorpal> ais523, it would seem these kinds of things would break tournaments a lot, not people trying to make the game undecidable, but combos you can't break out of would. That is why fighting games have combo breakers for example...
16:39:53 <ais523> Vorpal: in practical tournament play, the opponent normally concedes when you do that
16:39:58 <ais523> combo breakers exist but they're counterable
16:40:16 <Vorpal> Also presumably you would have to build your deck for that
16:40:23 <ais523> (e.g. in Legacy play, Force of Will is commonplace not because it's an actual good card, but because it's one of the few cards that can escape an opponent's combo)
16:40:24 <b_jonas> Vorpal: the cryptographic thing is definitely more complicated than what you could do in a tournament
16:40:29 <b_jonas> an ordinary infinite combo isn't
16:40:51 <ais523> every now and then a tournament player says "show me the combo" and forces the other player to play it out
16:41:06 <ais523> and sometimes they screw it up (especially if they got the deck from the Internet and haven't practiced it much)
16:41:11 <Vorpal> b_jonas, From an outsider perspective (who never played the game) this would seem a major flaw in it
16:41:25 <b_jonas> ais523: definitely, that happens even in moderately complicated decks
16:41:46 <b_jonas> even I have built decks where I have to practice a lot before playing, or else I make a ton of mistakes
16:41:47 <Vorpal> <ais523> every now and then a tournament player says "show me the combo" and forces the other player to play it out <-- is that a move? Forcing the other player to play a combo???
16:42:02 <b_jonas> whereas some decks are so simple you can play them without paying much attention
16:42:03 <ais523> Vorpal: no, you do it when the other player has started a combo, as the alternative to conceding
16:42:11 <ais523> b_jonas: not really, even simple decks have lots of decisions
16:42:21 <ais523> Burn is often considered a very simple deck but you still have to choose whether to aim at players or monsters
16:42:33 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but they're either easy decision, or decisions that don't impact the player much
16:42:44 <b_jonas> I wasn't thinking of a burn deck, but more of a creature-based deck
16:43:04 <b_jonas> but sure, even that can sometimes have lots of decisions about which creature to play first or how many creatures to attack with
16:43:12 <ais523> or whether to hold them back about wraths
16:43:21 <ais523> and how to play around counterspells
16:43:35 <b_jonas> the metagame matters a lot in how simple it is
16:43:42 <ais523> admittedly, midrange vs. midrange is something I find really boring to watch (especially bad as it's what Wizards has been pushing the most recently)
16:43:48 <ais523> there are still lots of decisions, just ones I don't find interesting
16:44:19 <ais523> Vorpal: there's some Literate StackFlow lower down the page
16:44:43 <b_jonas> well, Wizards always has to push the game in a direction that many decks are simple to play, or else the whole game gets too complex for tournaments
16:44:52 <Vorpal> ais523, I saw that a bit later yes
16:49:20 <ais523> b_jonas: anyway, what we need to do wrt StackFlow
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16:49:34 <ais523> is a) fix the current bug in the construction
16:49:44 <ais523> b) see if we can find some way to observe the halting oracle outcome from within the game
16:49:53 <ais523> are there any effects that replace draws /other than/ Shaharazad?
16:50:07 <ais523> (and Enter the Dungeon, which doesn't exactly count)?
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16:52:07 <ais523> huh, do you shuffle your deck at the start of a subgame?
16:52:27 <b_jonas> ais523: you man replace "the game is a draw"?
16:52:40 <ais523> we already have lich's mirror for replacing losing
16:52:43 <b_jonas> as opposed to replacing "draw a card"
16:52:51 <ais523> right, replacing "draw a card" is easy
16:53:02 <ais523> but in this case, I particularly want to replace an infinite loop
16:53:11 <b_jonas> I think there deliberately isn't a way to replace "the game is a draw", because that would cause a problem if there's an infinite loop or if all players lost at the same time
16:53:30 <ais523> well shahrazad replaces a draw in the subgame by halving each player's life total in the main game
16:53:48 <b_jonas> but Shahrazad is banned in all formats, isn't it?
16:53:59 <b_jonas> it's as if it was silver or gold bordered now
16:55:35 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 53m 5s ago: fungot answers me. fungot is great. fungot fungot fungot ♪
16:56:48 <Vorpal> ais523, what is a sub game in MtG? What it sounds like? (Pausing the game and playing a separate game, then resuming the main game, modified in some way based on the sub game outcome?)
16:57:08 <ais523> Wizards quickly realised it was a bad idea
16:57:15 <ais523> and banned it in every ruleset they support
16:57:21 <ais523> (well, not /that/ quickly, but they have done)
16:57:22 <Vorpal> ais523, it would make the game awfully complicated
16:57:40 <ais523> it's fun to do once, but players were repeatedly starting recursive subgames in order to run out time in the round during tournaments
16:57:50 <ais523> as a method of avoiding losing or to maintain a lead
16:58:26 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> ithm effective <-- you must not have seen fungot's response hth
16:58:26 <fungot> oerjan: some experimentation with various envelope rates, then drops to an i/ o
16:59:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:59:27 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
16:59:40 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
16:59:43 <fungot> Vorpal: ' don't mention it. do not meddle in the affairs of priests, with dios in front of his colleague. ' lots of people with nothing to do with it.
17:00:44 <b_jonas> I wonder if you could lock a player's turn down while still allowing him to draw any card from his deck and keep any seven in their hand. You have to destroy all their mana sources, donate an Agressive Mining, get ten copies of Sphere of Resistance and Suppression Field each so he can't do anything even if he discards seven spirit guides, but maybe there's still a way to break out of that.
17:01:09 <b_jonas> Luckily Suppression Field and Sphere of Resistance work for cards in any zone
17:01:31 <Vorpal> jeez, MtG is complicated.
17:02:00 <b_jonas> Vorpal: which part? (all of it, I know)
17:02:20 <ais523> b_jonas: do any of those cards block triggered abilities?
17:02:23 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well what I seen of it. All the terminology.
17:02:33 <ais523> I'm thinking of discarding a card with an on-discard triggered ability to hand size
17:02:44 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, right, madness cards with a trigger
17:02:54 <ais523> there are cards with madness 0, although your sphere might block that
17:03:07 <ais523> but you could discard a dredge card and then start dredging narcomoebas
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17:03:35 <b_jonas> Narcomoeba... I didn't know that one
17:04:05 <ais523> it's actually one of the main cards in both a legacy deck /and/ a vintage deck
17:04:11 <b_jonas> ais523: how about if you throw in a Yixlid Jailer?
17:04:15 <ais523> also extended, back when that existed
17:04:35 <ais523> strangely enough the combo was legal in standard for a while but nobody realised it was good at the time
17:05:38 <b_jonas> but yes, Madness could cause problems
17:06:02 <b_jonas> I'm not sure, but I think Sphere of Resistance does block madness
17:06:13 <b_jonas> but wasn't there some other trigger on discard somewhere?
17:07:01 <ais523> so the problem with getting shahrazad to work is you somehow have to set the combo up inside the subgame without any player decisions
17:07:09 <ais523> which will be awkward, because of things like mulligans
17:07:15 <b_jonas> what ability was it that replaced discarding anything with a move that causes the card to be not revealed?
17:07:32 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that's what I said, you can't force much to happen inside the subgame
17:08:16 <b_jonas> you can set the subgame up if you're allowed to make decisions, but you can't force a computation in it by setting up earlier
17:08:22 <ais523> bleh, you do shuffle your libraries at the start of the subgame
17:08:41 <ais523> and I can't think of any way for the main game to influence the subgame, except by influencing card availablility
17:09:22 <b_jonas> right, you can influence who the two players are, their starting library, and maybe their sideboard? I don't know how subgames work now
17:09:28 <ais523> are there any Conspiracies that prevent mulligans?
17:09:36 <ais523> you can influence the sideboard via wishing cards out from it in the main game
17:09:45 <ais523> it's a separate zone from exile, though
17:09:51 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean the sideboard of the subgame
17:10:03 <ais523> not sure whether main-game cards count as subgame-sideboard, subgame-exile, or neither (although I'm pretty sure it's not subgame-exile0
17:10:08 <b_jonas> can't a wish in the subgame wish something from some zone of the main game?
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17:10:40 <ais523> " All objects in the main game and all cards outside the main game are consi dered outside the subgame (except those specifically brought into the subgame)"
17:11:06 <ais523> looks like every zone in the main game is "outside the game" for the subgame
17:11:13 <ais523> meaning that you can subgame-wish cards out of maingame-exile
17:11:20 <ais523> but can't subgame-riftsweep them from there
17:12:17 <b_jonas> hehe, there are rules about subgames in main games that are Planechase, Vanguard (seriously, isn't that completely impossible?), Commander, and Archenemy, but none for Conspiracy... no wait, I'm just reading a too old ruleset
17:13:00 <b_jonas> I think wishes and similar in the subgame can bring cards from the main game to the subgame
17:13:11 <ais523> b_jonas: paper vanguard exists
17:13:25 <ais523> also, I'm reading the current version of the comp rules
17:13:30 <ais523> none for Conspiracy, you're right
17:14:14 <ais523> hmm, you could probably actually pull that off, too; isn't there a conspiracy that lets you add another booster pack to the draft, and is there any restriction that it's a conspiracy pack?
17:15:16 <ais523> err, Conspiracy doesn't seem to be on Gatherer
17:15:35 <ais523> hmm, or not in the search
17:15:39 <ais523> I can find conspiracy cards via their names
17:16:41 <b_jonas> if you make two levels of subgames, then concede the middle level game, what happens with the cards of the innermost level game? do those cards still count as being in the middle level game, in which case they are moved to the exile of the main game by 715.5?
17:17:52 <ais523> allows you to use Alpha cards and Conspiracies in the same format (3×Conspiracy draft)
17:18:32 <ais523> this means, in particular, that the subgame/conspiracy interaction is possible in a sanctioned format
17:18:46 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure, aren't banned cards still banned?
17:18:47 <ais523> because I don't see Shahrazad on the list of cards banned in Conspiracy draft
17:19:22 <b_jonas> it's not banned in Conspiracy? isn't the Conspiracy ban list derived form some other ban list?
17:19:40 <ais523> Conspiracy's a draft format
17:19:43 <ais523> those tend not to get bans
17:19:50 <b_jonas> ais523: yes yes, but still
17:20:16 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, can this allow you to add an Un-set booster, and play silver bordered cards from it?
17:20:39 <b_jonas> mind you, literal Alpha boosters are very expensive these days
17:20:49 <ais523> b_jonas: I was thinking more "can you add a Beta booster and play /ante/ cards from it?"
17:21:05 <ais523> although I guess they'd just be removed from your deck
17:21:09 <b_jonas> ais523: what would that buy you in a limited game?
17:21:20 <b_jonas> you'd just get a few more cards from that limited pool
17:22:12 <ais523> b_jonas: it'd buy you a 39-card deck
17:22:21 <b_jonas> ais523: there's already a Conspiracy card for that
17:22:25 <ais523> although there are easier ways, /especially/ in Conspiracy (where you can have a 35-card deck legitimately)
17:23:28 <ais523> I can confirm that nowhere on the Wizards website does it give a banned list for 3×Conspiracy draft
17:23:32 <b_jonas> whereas if you could bring an Un-set booster in, that could potentially influence future games with the same opponent using Time Machine
17:24:14 <ais523> are Un-cards even Magic cards, legally?
17:25:16 <b_jonas> ais523: see rule 108.2, I think they are
17:25:22 <b_jonas> they're just banned in all formats
17:25:35 <b_jonas> gold bordered cards are too, but you can't get those from a booster
17:26:36 <b_jonas> mind you, I don't think Time Machine actually works in the rules
17:27:02 <ais523> I was thinking that Un-cards might technically work the same way as token cards, ad cards, etc.
17:27:10 <ais523> Vorpal: a joke set that looks sort-of like a real Magic set
17:27:17 <ais523> but the cards have silver borders and abilities that don't work within the rules
17:27:28 <ais523> they were printed by the same company who makes Magic
17:27:44 -!- danofthedeep has joined.
17:27:52 <HackEgo> danofthedeep: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
17:29:14 <ais523> AFAICT the MTR allows checklist cards from Innistrad, but not from Magic Origins
17:29:15 <b_jonas> "101.1. Whenever a card’s text directly contradicts these rules, the card takes precedence."
17:29:57 <b_jonas> is there anything that says that the text of other objects (tokens, copies of spells, emblems, etc) or players also take precedence?
17:30:08 <ais523> actually MTR 3.5 implies that an Origins DFC has to be represented by an Innistrad checklist card in the deck
17:30:16 <ais523> players don't have text
17:30:26 <b_jonas> ais523: ok true, players can't
17:30:32 <b_jonas> but how about other objects?
17:30:45 <ais523> "Players may not use errors or o missions in Oracle to abuse the rules. The Head Judge is the final authority for card interpretations, and he or she may overrule Oracle if an error is discovered."
17:30:52 <ais523> oh, I guess this is an old MTR copy
17:30:58 <ais523> it talks about when Magic 2015 becomes legal
17:31:53 <b_jonas> I'd like to find a rule that has the intent that rules other than that of the Comprehensive Rules and that of objects already in the game con't modify the game state, so rules you just make up or text on the Time Machine of the previous game can't modify the game.
17:32:13 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure you can't just make up rules and say that they influence the game.
17:32:14 <ais523> b_jonas: there's an un-card that undoes errata
17:32:17 <ais523> which is sort-of the opposite of what you want
17:32:58 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I'd like to prove that Time Machine, Double *, and Ass Whuppin' doesn't actually work in the games targetted
17:33:20 <b_jonas> so they can't influence non-un games per Comprehensive Rules, despite that Maro's un-judgement says they can
17:33:32 <ais523> Ass Whuppin' only hits silver-bordered cards for a reason
17:33:43 <b_jonas> oh yes, probably not Ass Whuppin' then
17:33:50 <b_jonas> but how about Time Machine and Double *
17:34:51 <b_jonas> mind you, I think even if they work, an opponent can always break out of a multi-game cascading effect by conceding one game very early
17:35:06 <ais523> oh yes, conceding is a choice
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17:35:48 <b_jonas> but still, it shouldn't influence a serious game even if the opponent forgets to play a normal game after the last un-game in which you Double Play-ed him
17:36:48 <ais523> <Bill Gates> Like almost everyone who uses e-mail, I receive a ton of spam every day. Much of it offers to help me get out of debt or get rich quick. It would be funny if it weren't so irritating.
17:37:30 <b_jonas> what? doesn't he get spam to buy rolex or viagra?
17:37:52 <Vorpal> I don't get much spam. Maybe one a week or so
17:38:00 <b_jonas> most of the spam I get is actually academic spam, because that goes through spam filters more easily than other spam
17:38:14 <Vorpal> b_jonas, academic spam?
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17:38:57 <b_jonas> Vorpal: spam inviting you to publish in a scientific journal or apply to a scientific conference, sent to people with their name and email address taken from scholar articles, with "Professor" always appended to their name
17:39:05 <ais523> b_jonas: this was in the earlier days of spam, I think
17:39:06 <int-e> Vorpal: oh there are so many conferences and journals where "peer-review" is handled by handing over a sufficient amount of money
17:39:23 <ais523> incidentally, spam is now a much smaller fraction of Internet traffic than it once was
17:39:23 <int-e> Vorpal: I'm getting spam from Engineroxy and Computeroxy all the time.
17:39:34 <ais523> I think once it was over 90%, but it fell under 50% recently
17:39:35 <Vorpal> int-e, never heard of them
17:39:38 <int-e> The Internet is for Porn!
17:39:40 <b_jonas> ais523: well of course. with all the high resolution videos people download
17:39:46 <int-e> Vorpal: ok, just curious since the topic came up
17:39:47 <ais523> probably not because spam has slowed down, but because it's bandwidth-efficient and the bandwidth use of everything esle has gone up
17:39:48 <b_jonas> it's hard to send so many text emails
17:40:22 <b_jonas> you know, text and html and embedded images and trojans and malware triggering a security vulnerability, but those are generally all small
17:40:27 <Vorpal> I usually get spam for rayban glasses in my gmail, about one every few weeks.
17:40:36 <b_jonas> the actual malware payload is either small or is downloaded separately
17:40:54 <b_jonas> the spam emails definitely don't contain tens of gigabytes of videos
17:41:18 <b_jonas> that would fill up your inbox so they couldn't send you the next spam email
17:41:45 <Vorpal> b_jonas, also gmail has a 25 MB / mail limit iirc
17:42:11 <b_jonas> yeah, all mail servers have some size limits
17:42:49 <b_jonas> but a hundred spam mails throughout a week, 25 MB each, is also too big
17:44:06 <int-e> have you actually seen such big spam?
17:44:41 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I use a separate email for each site I register with. That way I can black list an email if it starts getting spam, also complain to the web site in question
17:45:04 <Vorpal> int-e, it would expend too much resources on the spammer's server as well
17:45:50 <Vorpal> There should be a spam opt out. Saying "I'm not this stupid, just stop sending me the bloody stuff, it is pointless"
17:45:54 <Vorpal> Wouldn't work of course
17:46:24 <int-e> stop reading email altogether... unfortunately, that's increasingly impractical
17:46:47 <Vorpal> int-e, well, as I said, I don't get much spam. Maybe one a week at most
17:46:53 <Vorpal> So it isn't much of an issue for me
17:48:00 <ais523> b_jonas: aha, in a Conspiracy×3 tournament, you're not allowed to use boosters that weren't given to you by the tournament organizers
17:48:14 <ais523> meaning that if a Beta booster gets in there somehow, it's the TO's fault
17:48:43 <ais523> however: "Other than basic land, only cards from the expansions of the boosters opened (and only cards opened in that player’s pool) may be used in a player’s deck."
17:48:56 <ais523> this seems to imply that cards from a Beta booster are legal, if you get one into the draft somehow
17:49:31 <ais523> oh, haha, they closed it specifically: "Because it was designed specifically for multiplayer play, the use of Conspiracy boosters in sanctioned, competitive Limited-format tournaments (Sealed Deck and Booster Draft) is not permitted."
17:50:30 <ais523> a cop-out, but I guess that works
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18:56:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44568&oldid=44143 * 76.164.8.130 * (+0) /* Movement and execution */ Moved the '#' mirror to be on the same line
18:57:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44569&oldid=44568 * 76.164.8.130 * (+0) /* Literals and operators */ Made it so code blocks dont wrap
19:00:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Material Measurements]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44570 * Hppavilion1 * (+1391) Created page
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19:03:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Material Measurements]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44571&oldid=44570 * Hppavilion1 * (+21) Removed word "metric" for tax purposes, extended words
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19:10:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Material Measurements]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44572&oldid=44571 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Fixed a piece of code
19:19:31 <MDream> Inches are usually divided down to the 1/16th.
19:20:09 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
19:20:54 <MDude> I've been wanting to have some kind of measurement converting system, but I didn't have any measurements to use first so I didn't work on it.
19:23:28 <Vorpal> MDude, hm? for what purpose?
19:23:59 <Vorpal> If you just want to convert there are plenty of utilities that do that
19:24:07 <MDude> For just general things related to measurements?
19:24:18 <Vorpal> MDude, apt-get install units?
19:24:24 <MDude> I don't see your point.
19:24:37 <Vorpal> for converting SI to other unit systems
19:24:50 <MDude> Why would I want a uitility when I'm talking about coding?
19:24:58 <Vorpal> I misunderstood you then
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19:53:09 <b_jonas> ais523: um, Conspiracy always worked that. it was designed as a casual format, like Archenemy and Planechase and Commander, so it was never intended for serious tournaments. that's what they always claimed about that product from the start.
19:54:49 <b_jonas> ais523: still, at least Archenemy and Conspiracy and Shahrazad are officially supported by the Comprehensive rules, and can get oracle text errata, unlike un-cards and gold bordered cards
19:55:01 <b_jonas> (the gold bordered cards that aren't also printed as black bordered, that is)
19:56:00 <b_jonas> ais523: also, I was thinking about this finite but large combos thing, and I'm starting to understand why you can get large ones, though I couldn't make a combo that's as large as the ones you mentioned
19:56:37 <b_jonas> I can get a two up arrowed one, and could probably get a three up arrowed one if I tried hard enough
19:57:10 <b_jonas> and I can at least imagine that you could get a five or six up arrowed one if you research and work on it carefully, though it would be very hard to avoid infinite combos
19:57:33 <b_jonas> I think Djinn Illuminatus helps a lot
19:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Well, prealgebra is usually a class in schools to teach about algebra, but in THIS case I'm using it to refer to arithmetic with variables
19:58:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's an API I designed to make Set-builder notation work well in my Set Theory editor
19:58:48 <b_jonas> ais523: and yes, Doubling Season is a very good idea too
20:01:23 <b_jonas> isn't there any spell or ability that simply lets you choose a target sorcery or instant spell from the stack and copy it, without allowing you to change the targets?
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20:07:30 <b_jonas> oh, Spitting Image looks very useful
20:07:46 <b_jonas> because with 40 lands in your deck, you could play a single Spitting Image 40 times
20:07:51 <b_jonas> and you can get each of them copied a lot
20:09:35 <b_jonas> hmm, though I'm not sure you could get it copied enough times
20:12:56 <ais523> b_jonas: all spell copies I know also retarget the copies
20:13:29 <b_jonas> Radiate lets you start growing a bit faster than just a Twincast, but I don't think it matters much asymptotically
20:25:37 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i lurk, but im always on IRC
20:25:44 <augur> and always at my computer :)
20:27:19 <b_jonas> most of the simple combos are either only exponential, or infinite, or don't work
20:28:52 <b_jonas> oh.... Panoptic Mirror sounds interesting
20:29:09 <augur> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean? can you elaborate?
20:29:36 <b_jonas> if you have say 60 or 100 turns, you can _cast_ an instant or sorcery 60 or 100 times
20:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> augur: Well first I need to find a Linguist willing to help.
20:29:50 <hppavilion[1]> augur: THEN I let them talk about what they want in a language
20:29:58 <b_jonas> just let your deck run out after 100 turns
20:30:09 <hppavilion[1]> augur: THEN I spend a few years figuring out what that stuff means and what the stuff important to that means
20:30:36 <FireFly> I don't think you'd necessarily have to do them in that order
20:30:37 <augur> hppavilion[1]: well, im a linguist, and im happy to talk
20:33:08 <hppavilion[1]> augur: Are there any cool Linguistics words we could name this after temporarily?
20:33:17 <augur> i do programming, yes
20:33:26 <augur> hppavilion[1]: first you have to tell me what "this" is :P
20:33:52 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is, in the abstract, an attempt to make a linguistics-oriented programming language
20:34:26 <hppavilion[1]> Sort of like the Wolfram language, but for Linguistics instead of Math
20:34:56 <hppavilion[1]> Mostly just to see if it's possible, partially for someone to actually maybe someday use, with a hint of boredom resolution for me
20:35:16 <augur> what does that mean tho
20:35:31 <hppavilion[1]> augur: Well I don't understand Linguistics enough to figure that out xD.
20:37:11 <hppavilion[1]> If I understand it properly, it'd have built-in interfaces for creating formal grammars, for making translators between languages, etc.
20:37:29 <Phantom_Hoover> you do not sound contemptuous enough of wolfram language
20:38:44 <Phantom_Hoover> it's an idiosyncratic language with some nice symbolic manipulation features and a big standard library
20:40:35 <b_jonas> surprisingly many cards convert damage dealt to something to that many tokens
20:40:50 <b_jonas> as in, you get N tokens when N damage is dealt
20:41:07 <b_jonas> Druid's Call is probably the most versatile, unless you want to deal damage to a player
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20:52:09 <Vorpal> <Phantom_Hoover> a scarf made of pasta? <-- cooked, not cooked but fresh, or dried?
20:53:16 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, because I'm trying to figure out how it would work, what sort of material properties it would have
20:53:58 <Phantom_Hoover> i didn't really think through the details of the pasta scarf
20:54:08 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, ah, fair enough
20:54:44 <olsner> you don't need to construct the whole world, just the pasta scarf
20:55:00 <olsner> or were you intending for a world where pasta behaves specially?
20:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> what kind of culture would wear the pasta scarf though
20:55:19 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, Italian plumbers?
20:55:25 <olsner> presumably at or beyond the making of pasta
20:56:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, not sure
20:56:09 <Vorpal> But yes Italian certainly
20:56:15 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm in class, so I won't be on too much for a bit
20:56:43 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, anyway, wrt everyday or badge of office, that would depend on how practical it was, which again goes back to the material properties
20:57:24 <Phantom_Hoover> evidently the Scarf Culture must be agrarian to obtain the grain needed for the scarf
20:57:42 <Vorpal> Honorary paraphernalia does not have to be as practical or durable as every day clothes
20:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> or perhaps they are a nomadic tribe, weaving pasta scarves from the pillaged wheat of their tributaries
20:58:37 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, But it could be a sort of carnival cloth, for the harvesting festival.
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20:59:01 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, thus it would not need to be practical as such
20:59:21 <HackEgo> Brick goes in brain. The statutory punishment for perpetrators of brainfuck derivatives.
20:59:36 <augur> hppavilion[1]: so depending on what you want, something like that might already exist
20:59:53 <Phantom_Hoover> augur what do you think the word for a scarf made of pasta would be
20:59:54 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, oh, instead of shrunken heads or other trophies? That would work yes
20:59:57 <augur> except that Wolfram Lang ties into all sorts of other stuff like the whole suite of crap that Mathematica has
21:00:27 <augur> but you might want to look into GF / Grammatical Formalism
21:00:48 <augur> Grammatical Formalism, by Aarne Ranta
21:00:56 <augur> theres a whole page, youll find it in google
21:01:46 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, well, that was a fun exercise in creative thinking. Need to sleep now though
21:02:41 <Vorpal> Though I could dream about scarfs perhaps
21:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> augur: I use Duck Duck Go, and it didn't come up. Amazon was a bust too.
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21:07:50 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i dont know, pasta scarft?? who knows
21:08:02 <augur> hppavilion[1]: https://www.google.com/search?q=grammatical+framework+ranta
21:08:15 <augur> http://www.grammaticalframework.org/
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21:11:37 <augur> hppavilion[1]: i guess, but its gonna be a huge pain in the ass for you
21:11:52 <augur> im implementing something similar to Ranta's GF, for my wanna-be AI startup
21:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be a pretty useful thing for TBGs, I suppose...
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22:08:11 <hppavilion[1]> What other applied-mathematical fields could we make Programming Languages about?
22:08:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Applied-mathematical measn things like Linguistics in this concept)
22:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose operator overloading is like Ring Theory if you manually preserve closure
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23:03:31 <tswett> Define a ring syntactically, you say?
23:03:48 <tswett> I'm not sure that my idea of what "syntactically" means is the same as your idea.
23:05:39 <ais523> well, variable names in many languages have the syntactic behaviour of a set
23:05:50 <ais523> because it doesn't matter which order you define them in and you can't define them twice
23:06:22 <ais523> (this becomes more obvious if you look at the grammar)
23:06:47 <ais523> (although from the grammar, it looks more like a multiset, because uniqueness of names is normally implemented via freshness conditions)
23:28:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44573&oldid=44020 * LegionMammal978 * (+1) /* Hello World */
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23:54:30 <ais523> idea: a language that is a derivative of itself
23:54:33 <ais523> err, not including Feather
23:56:34 <MDude> A language whose description is itself an enlessly complex recursive document?
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23:57:09 <ais523> a language that is defined as being like itself, but with exceptions, perhaps
23:57:24 <ais523> in a way that allows the entire language to be deduced via a fixed point operator
00:00:31 <\oren\> is it normal to forget to leave work when work is over?
00:01:19 <shachaf> certainly your employer has an incentive to make it normal hth
00:02:09 <\oren\> well I mean I was programming and eating a cupcake
00:02:26 <\oren\> and then I realized it was 7:00 pm
00:02:38 <MDude> It took that long to eat a cupcake?
00:02:58 <MDude> Time to call yourself the savorator.
00:03:10 <\oren\> but I was eating a cupcake when I realized
00:03:20 <ais523> where am I going to be able to find somewhere to eat at 1am
00:03:25 <ais523> (and do they sell cupcakes?)
00:03:53 <\oren\> try a breakfast joint that the night-shifters go to.
00:03:55 <ais523> selly oak, which is cheating a bit
00:04:01 <ais523> because it's full of shops which don't close until 3 or so
00:04:16 <ais523> and then a different subset of shops open at 7am or so
00:04:28 <ais523> so although it's not technically a 24:7 place it is open quite a lot of the time
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00:04:52 <\oren\> I know a breakfast place that opens at midnight and is open until 2 pm
00:05:14 <shachaf> \oren\: what do you think of smoke's poutinerie twh
00:05:33 <ais523> \oren\: I don't think that's common in the UK
00:05:47 <ais523> I remember I was at a motorway service station, which has a legal requirement to sell hot food, at 2am
00:06:00 <FireFly> ais523: hm, well Scheme-ω is kind of the fixpoint of derivatives of Scheme, but it's not exactly a derivative "of itself"
00:06:11 <ais523> and they met their requirement via the use of a relatively small KFC with one employee who would cook KFC things to order, and a computer to take the orders
00:06:15 <FireFly> s/the fixpoint/a fixpoint/
00:07:20 <FireFly> A language that is literally a derivative of itself probably doesn't make sense, or at least I don't see how that would work
00:07:45 <ais523> FireFly: well, "BF but with , and . swapped" is a BF derivative (and, sadly, it probably already exists)
00:08:04 <\oren\> I like smokes poutinery but it isn't open at 5am
00:08:06 <ais523> if the language were a self-derivative, that sort of description would imply that , and . did the same thing
00:08:16 <ais523> that isn't very interesting by itself, but you could make it more complex
00:08:23 <ais523> "a is like b, but with a stack instead of a queue"
00:08:33 <ais523> keep working like this and you might be able to build up a language purely self-referentially
00:09:15 <shachaf> and nu is the greatest fixed point
00:10:40 <FireFly> not all fixed points are great though, some are small
00:11:44 <FireFly> If there's fixed points, does that mean there is also broken points?
00:11:46 <ais523> in this case, ideally there'd only be one fixed point, or maybe two
00:11:52 <ais523> although I guess you'd have to go for the least fixed point
00:12:01 <ais523> to prevent people adding in extra commands that are entirely unmentioned
00:15:09 <shachaf> The greatest fixed point might be more interesting.
00:17:53 <ais523> wouldn't it contain infinitely many commands, that aren't uniquely defined?
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00:28:04 <Jafet> But if there is only one greatest fixed point, then the language is necessarily uniquely defined.
00:28:48 <shachaf> There might not be a greatest fixed point, of course. There might also not be a least fixed point.
00:29:08 <ais523> there being a least fixed point is more likely, though
00:29:34 <shachaf> What is the ordering here?
00:35:07 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I mean what is the form for defining a Ring
00:35:40 <hppavilion[1]> Like defining a variable is <name>=(<value>|<expression>)
00:35:59 <hppavilion[1]> Well, that's not a very good example because, I presume, rings are represented as variables
00:38:41 <Phantom_Hoover> a variable is a syntactic thing, it represents a map or a set or whatever else you happen to be talking about
00:39:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: I was talking about the set of all variable names in a program being syntactically a set
00:39:36 <ais523> I think hppavilion[1] is trying to elaborate on that
00:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> What weird data structures could we use to represent variables?
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00:43:48 <\oren\> a 'variable' has different meanings depending on the language
00:44:21 <ais523> \oren\: assignable variables
00:44:30 <ais523> I meant lambda variables
00:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> Usually it's a Map, rarely it's as stack, in some Esolangs it's a pointer-based thing, but what about something truly strange?
00:44:39 <ais523> I was trying to translate from hppavilion[1] into mathematical syntax
00:44:43 <\oren\> see those are digfferent
00:44:45 <ais523> and hadn't noticed e'd said the wrong thing
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00:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> So is Priority Queue weird enough of a DS for data storage in a language?
00:48:37 <hppavilion[1]> Or symetrical map (or whatever that thing's called)
00:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> Priority-Ordered-Stacky-Symetrical-Multimap-based variables
01:08:16 <doesthiswork> the sequence of progressively more general data structures goes from location addressable like array, list, queue, stack, to name addressable like dictionary to content addressable like prolog or sql
01:09:00 <doesthiswork> or perhaps you have no variables, only types. So if you want to store a value you have to define a unique type for it
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07:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44574&oldid=44106 * Timwi * (+0)
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08:12:04 <mroman_> Could somebody somehow reset my esowiki password?
08:14:47 <mroman_> (My nick on there is Feuermonster :) )
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08:18:39 <mroman_> What exactly is the difference between a debate, a discussion and a shitstorm?
08:18:51 <mroman_> I'm loosing track of all those terms.
08:19:50 <myname> i'd say debates are discussions wuth certain rules and shitstorms are in no way about dialogs
08:20:56 <mroman_> oh wait. Shitstorm although an english word, isn't used in the english language.
08:21:10 <mroman_> like we use oldtimer and mobbing :)
08:21:46 <mroman_> "shitstorm" is kinda the german word for flamewar
08:24:31 <mroman_> Looks like "Lulu" gets some competition.
08:26:19 <mroman_> Everybody is scared of a "surveillance state"
08:26:45 <mroman_> but somehow it's ok to have a "surveillance society"
08:26:52 <mroman_> just as long as it's not the state doing the actual surveillance.
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10:11:13 <int-e> aaargh! too many characters.
10:11:31 <oerjan> at least colette might not be betraying them
10:12:49 <oerjan> and gil will go to paris </dreen>
10:13:45 <oerjan> anyway, i don't think grandma has shown up before
10:14:30 <int-e> Well I had trouble recognizing Seffie.
10:15:10 <oerjan> hm she may be a bit indistinct
10:15:40 <int-e> it'll be easier next time now that I've realized that she has Martellus' hair color.
10:15:58 <oerjan> they do tend to in that family
10:19:28 <oerjan> hm marg{olott,arell}a didn't.
10:23:27 <oerjan> hm neither does lord selnikov
10:32:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blank]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44575&oldid=34583 * LegionMammal978 * (+421) read the interpreter
10:36:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blank]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44576&oldid=44575 * LegionMammal978 * (+13) /* Input/output */
10:53:12 <fizzie> "Status: !? Tool Failure".
10:53:14 <fizzie> I know my test failed, but that's no reason to call me a tool.
10:53:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Help, WarDoq!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44577&oldid=44098 * LegionMammal978 * (+249) /* Fail. */
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11:01:48 <boily> what's a “!? Tool”?
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11:02:23 <FireFly> Perhaps it punctuates your speech
11:09:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PHL 1.0]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44578&oldid=40992 * LegionMammal978 * (-13) /* External resources */
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11:15:16 <fizzie> boily: The [!?] part was the symbol.
11:15:47 <fizzie> I think it's F when failed, a checkmark when passed, a % when flaky, and probably there are some others too.
11:15:54 <fizzie> In addition to the !? tool failure.
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12:40:42 <draghi> Hey, you peeps mind if I quickly poll you on something? I'm currently developing a 3D image-based funge-like language that utilizes a growable/shrinkable ringbuffer containing stacks as memory that supports self-modification and brainfork style concurrency. Does that sound interesting? and what sort of features would you expect? Thanks (y)
12:41:48 <draghi> As in the source code is in an animated imge, such as a gif, and the execution path moves in 3 dimentions through it.
12:42:40 <myname> ah, that's nice, but i am.not sure how much that limits the number of operations
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12:43:42 <draghi> I'm limiting it to 256 commands, and I definitely am looking at a basic IDE for it cause colours will be confusing enough XD
12:47:01 <draghi> Well, 255 and a noop XD
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12:51:38 <mroman_> Is there a fast check to determine if a number is a fibonacci number?
12:52:20 <myname> fibonacci numbers aren't that special
12:53:58 <mroman_> apparentely if (5*n^2 +4) or (5*n^2 -4) is a perfect square, then n is a fibonacci number
12:55:09 <draghi> Well. Kinda. I guess if you can reverse this equation: http://www.maths.surrey.ac.uk/hosted-sites/R.Knott/Fibonacci/fibFormula.html Then check if it's a whole number.
12:55:12 <FireFly> derived from the closed-form expression for Fibonacci numbers?
12:55:30 <mroman_> you mean that 1/sqrt(5) thingy?
12:55:36 <mroman_> that requires arbitrary precision
12:56:07 <mroman_> (essentially it should work with bigints only)
12:57:05 <mroman_> also.. is there a way given F(n) to find F(n-1),F(n-2) easily?
12:57:22 <myname> tjat 1/sqrt(5) doesn't help
12:57:46 <mroman_> I might want to use Fibonacci Numbers for cryptography
12:57:56 <myname> because every series with f(n) = f(n-1)+f(n-2) gets to 1/sqrt(5)
12:58:03 <myname> no matter where it starts
13:00:56 <draghi> If memory isn't an issue, you could always build a look-up table for the resonable range, and then calculate everything outside of it?
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13:29:15 <Taneb> I just bought the D&D 5th ed DM's guide
13:30:31 <mroman_> on a completely off-topic topic, this danish "do it for mom" commercial is weird
13:31:38 <Taneb> They're letting me advertise to them
13:32:12 <mroman_> I heard first years are the most formable
13:32:19 <mroman_> you'd better not screw this up!
13:33:07 <mroman_> I'm tired of these noob java developers who don't now that you can prefix identifiers with a dollar sign to make it look like PHP.
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13:35:09 <draghi> *shivers at the mention of php* XP
13:35:20 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/jRa64Wpr <- that's how the pros do it
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14:03:14 <FireFly> mroman_: one can also have an inner class, method and field on some object, all with the same name
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14:12:46 <draghi> I may or may nto have done that before :|
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14:19:56 <int-e> $this = this hurts, and I don't mean the variable name.
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14:41:33 <mroman_> also... technically as of now I am a paid white-hat.
14:44:15 <int-e> mroman_: this is implicitely passed to all class methods, so that $this serves no useful purpose.
14:44:43 <int-e> implicitly (this typo is way to persistent)
14:45:14 <mroman_> The more PHP your code the better.
14:47:33 <APic> And i am Phantomias.
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14:53:28 <mroman_> parseString "+" <|> parseString "-" <|> parseString "*" <|> parseString "<" <|> parseString ">"
14:53:37 <mroman_> why's there no oneOf ["+","-"]
15:00:42 <myname> could you somehow do -> in java to access object attributes or methods? ?D
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15:12:07 <mroman_> Doesn't have operator overloading
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15:43:23 <draghi> *cough* Give D a look, it's pretty solid, it's my fav programming language at the moment. It's pretty much C meets Java. Still some things wrong with it, but it's pretty good! It has a GC, but if you feel like it you can actually use the c stdlib malloc/free and D's emplace to write non-gc code.
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16:01:06 <MDude> Mostly because I was just thinking of how I should probaly get back to learning assembly.
16:08:57 <mauris> why do people give their languages single character names still
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16:12:32 <draghi> myname: I haven't actually given that a go yet, I keep meaning to XD
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16:13:32 <myname> D is for C++ programmers who like C++ and Rust is for C++ prigrammers who hate C++
16:14:49 <draghi> I don't like C++ oddly enough XD
16:15:11 <draghi> It's what I code in mainly, but out of necessity.
16:15:44 <myname> my favourite quote about go is "go is not a bad language. go is not a good language either"
16:15:54 <draghi> I tried Go, I never got the hang of it. How's it GOing along? ah. ha. ha...
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16:18:40 <myname> gocis like "hey, let's make a new langiage but keep all that memory unsafety and null pointer errors"
16:20:47 <draghi> Also "Typing out interface names are too hard, so we threw that idea out."
16:21:05 <draghi> But I like go, it's interesting.
16:23:22 <myname> "also, who needs ADT anyways"
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17:40:44 <draghi> I'm off, catch ya'll later! (y)
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17:56:18 <shachaf> -NickServ(NickServ@services.)- elliott is not registered.
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18:12:25 <Phantom_Hoover> it's a set R with binary operations +, * such that it's an abelian group under +, a monoid under * and + and * distribute
18:13:43 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, yes. I mean how does one write down a /specific/ ring?
18:16:27 <Phantom_Hoover> this is, in a meaningful sense, the simplest nontrivial ring
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18:35:25 <FireFly> I think usually it's defined as a five-tuple out of a set, two operations, and two identity elements (for the two operations, respectively)?
18:35:34 <FireFly> and then of course those have to satisfy the axioms
18:37:20 <FireFly> But I guess one really thinks of it as a set equipped with two operations with corresponding identity elements, rather than a 5-tuple
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18:51:18 <MDude> Where's an actual description of SGML?
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18:53:15 <MDude> Oh, it costs money because ISO'
19:02:35 <MDude> I'm pretty sure that's why so few people implemented it, not complexity.
19:02:40 <MDude> So XML probably wasn't needed.
19:14:50 <MDude> THere's The SGML Handbook but the website for it is down?
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19:37:04 <FireFly> Why do ISO's specs cost money anyway? it's stupid.
19:37:19 <FireFly> Especially specs that ECMA have exact mirrors of, and those are free
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19:41:22 <gamemanj> um, because ISO want to rip people off for profit and profit?
19:41:40 <gamemanj> over specifications, which to me sounds quite stupid
19:42:10 <gamemanj> if you want a standard, you don't put it behind a paywall
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20:05:01 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a new arbitrary distinction we can make between esolangs
20:09:45 <hppavilion[1]> Monoesoteric languages are otherwise normal programming languages with one strange feature, like in Call Queue. They're often more proofs-of-concepts and demonstrations than they are esolangs made for the sake of esolangs.
20:11:12 <hppavilion[1]> Polyesoteric are languages which mix a bunch of weird traits together, like INTERCAL
20:11:37 <hppavilion[1]> They're easier to pull off because they're the product of just throwing a ton of weird shit into a blender and seeing the result
20:12:02 <hppavilion[1]> Another distinction could be Whole-grain esoteric and processed esoteric
20:12:06 <izabera> what about languages with two strange features
20:13:06 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Those are polyesoteric. Though you /could/, if you /really/ wanted to, call them diesoteric. But that'd be stupid, like the concept of a distinction between First, Second, and Third-class citizens in programming
20:13:25 <hppavilion[1]> It's first-class data or it isn't. There's no heirarchy.
20:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> Whole-grain esoteric are often purely made of esotericness, like Thue. Processed Esoteric only have a piece of esoteric mixed in with normal features, like Call Queue again.
20:14:48 <Phantom_Hoover> you need to inductively define the N-esoteric languages from the 0-esoteric languages and the S-esoteric function
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20:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> then all you need to do is define limit esotericity and you have the entire vast sweep of the ordinal esoterics at your fingertips
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20:21:14 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: I'm afraid to ask, but what is a third-class citizen?
20:21:53 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: It's an arbitrary distinction between different types of second-class citizen
20:22:28 <hppavilion[1]> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2578872/about-first-second-and-third-class-value/2582804#2582804
20:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: If you want to see what the distinction is, scroll up on that link.
20:24:46 <FireFly> Ah, sounds like a terribly vague distinction
20:24:50 * FireFly decides not to bother with it
20:26:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Esolang Adjectives]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44579 * Hppavilion1 * (+1165) Created page (talking about monoesoteric and polyesoteric)
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20:36:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Esolang Adjectives]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44580&oldid=44579 * Hppavilion1 * (+1122) Added new adjectives
20:37:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Phantom_Hoover: Taneb: I went with Ornate, though I might change it to Baroque
20:37:47 <izabera> oh you shouldn't take my advice seriously, my english sucks
20:41:05 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Baroque is actually a pretty interesting word for it, and seems to make sense in the concept of Esolangs
20:41:32 <hppavilion[1]> It was traditionally used to describe a period of music, but then again, Esolangs are like music to some people.
20:42:09 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see an Esolang that supports some simple GUI
20:46:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GUI4BF]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44581 * Hppavilion1 * (+310) Created Page (WIP)
20:47:25 <gamemanj> hmm... well, this is just plain convenient
20:47:44 <gamemanj> now I have a good test case for this thing I was developing for unrelated reasons
20:48:43 <gamemanj> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21184720/Flowcharter.png
20:49:55 <gamemanj> Flowchart-based BF programming.
20:50:25 <gamemanj> This is an incomplete generic flowchart-y thing,
20:50:36 <gamemanj> and you were saying about an esoteric language with a GUI.
20:51:26 <gamemanj> Actually, it's quite the opposite - the project it's for makes things easier.
20:52:04 <gamemanj> But there's the basis of a flowchart editor there, so if you want it for making a flowchart-based esolang off of, I figured it might be useful.
20:52:20 <gamemanj> (Now, how a flowchart-based esolang might work, IDK.)
20:52:29 <gamemanj> (Just thought it might be useful.)
20:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> Well, a language that is a flowchart IS an esolang
20:53:18 <gamemanj> Note that the flowchart editor works based on a grid... each grid can have one of the things in the dark panel at the top.
20:53:42 <gamemanj> But it should be trivial to change, and there's no runtime code yet anyways.
20:54:05 <gamemanj> This was meant to be an editor, not actually running anything.
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21:17:56 <HackEgo> U+1F435 MONKEY FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 b5 UTF-16BE: d83ddc35 Decimal: 🐵 \ 🐵 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
21:18:15 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/unidecode
21:19:32 <izabera> are you seriously complaining about that
21:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> Someone go design a portable Esoteric Widget Toolkit that can be used in other esolangs
21:27:58 <FireFly> the Widget Abomination Toolkit, libwat
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21:38:49 <izabera> https://capnproto.org/ does anyone know this?
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21:39:06 <Taneb> Heard about it before, don't know much about it
21:40:18 <izabera> i realize now that i don't really have a question about it
21:40:39 <izabera> would you recommend it? what do you use it for?
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22:02:26 <Taneb> Eek, freshers' fair tomorrow
22:02:43 <Taneb> Currently helping to make a terminal app people can use to sign uo
22:02:53 <Taneb> (to the computer science society here)
22:05:34 <Taneb> Currently I am doing some overdue laundry
22:05:38 <Taneb> But that's not the point
22:06:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44582&oldid=44435 * Vihan * (+5)
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22:12:06 <zzo38> I did intend writing the X widget set for use with C program, which is somewhat like Athena widgets
22:13:08 <ais523> "is this TC?" experiment: brainfuck with a finitely long tape (with < and > saturating), where most of the cells are 8-bit, and precisely 3 of them are unbounded
22:13:34 <Taneb> Do you know the specifics ahead of time
22:13:57 <ais523> my guess it it's TC anyway, but trying to deal with every possibility for cell layout would be quite complex
22:15:41 <ais523> because BF is known TC with three unbounded cells, but two unbounded cells are known to be not enough without some other form of storage
22:16:08 <ais523> (which doesn't necessarily have to be unbounded IIRC)
22:16:12 <shachaf> And a finite tape isn't enough storage?
22:16:22 <ais523> well we don't know how long i is
22:16:36 <shachaf> So it might just be three cells.
22:17:43 <Taneb> One of my friends is working on a talk about turing machines with tapes that might tear at runtime or something
22:18:35 <ais523> ooh, new record for video game computational class
22:18:47 <ais523> Braid is in EXPSPACE: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1412.0784v1.pdf
22:19:52 <izabera> do you know a guy named giovanni viglietta? he proved a bunch of stuff about super mario and similar games
22:20:30 <Taneb> iirc i read some of his work
22:20:58 <ais523> I've read the original paper about Mario, Metroid and friends
22:20:59 <izabera> i did too, not the ones about games tho
22:21:01 <ais523> unfortunately it is broken
22:21:23 <shachaf> "As it turns out, Braid *can* simulate an arbitrary computation – but not because of time manipulation."
22:21:23 <ais523> basically it shows the computational class of specific games in a series (e.g. SMB1 or Zelda 1)
22:21:47 <ais523> then it tries to generalize to other games in the series that have the same mechanics
22:21:51 <ais523> and although the lower bound generalizes
22:21:55 <ais523> the upper bound doesn't
22:22:03 <ais523> actually, not even that
22:22:15 <Taneb> ais523: do you have a non-PDF link?
22:22:19 <int-e> ais523: two unbounded cells with two zero cells inbetween make brainfuck TC (the zero cells are always zero, and one can make sure that the code will never modify them)... it turns out to be enough for a two-counter machine with while and if-zero-then-else.
22:22:21 <ais523> the problem is, you have things like the metroid crossover construction that allows passage left→right or top→bottom
22:22:56 <ais523> Taneb: it's arxiv, you could check here: http://arxiv.org/format/1412.0784v1
22:23:20 <ais523> but in super metroid, the same construction doesn't owrk
22:23:30 <int-e> (the two cells allow to store one bit of state in the pointer position when extiting a loop)
22:23:34 <ais523> because you can do a mid-air morph and go sideways when you shouldn't be able to
22:23:41 <Taneb> Aww, no index thing
22:23:52 <Taneb> Actually, http://arxiv.org/abs/1412.0784is what I was looking for
22:24:38 <int-e> err, the two zero cells (though that may have been obvious)
22:24:43 <ais523> this implies that the problem is having a cell that's zero for breaking out of loops, plus one other bit of state somewhere
22:25:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[McCulloch's second machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44583&oldid=38818 * LegionMammal978 * (-5) /* Discussion */
22:28:21 <int-e> I've thought a while on the situation of two unbounded cells with just one bounded cell inbetween... so far without a conclusion.
22:28:57 <ais523> presumably this cell has a relatively large bound?
22:29:46 <int-e> I was actually thinking of a fairly low bound (namely, enough to store the remainder of dividing by 2,3 or 5, perhaps plus 1)
22:30:01 <ais523> aha, these are the same lines I'm thinking along atm
22:30:11 <ais523> a divide/multiply machine
22:30:12 <int-e> or a bit more, with the idea of implementing fractran
22:30:21 <int-e> (or some variant thereof)
22:30:31 <ais523> I'm not convinced you need the entirety of fractran, but it'd help
22:31:14 <int-e> oerjan targeted http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz%20function in his 3 unbounded cells construction
22:32:19 <ais523> I guess we should start with the following construction: two unbounded cells, plus one cell with a program-specified bound
22:32:25 <ais523> and try to prove that TC
22:32:29 <ais523> then try to get the bound as low as possible
22:36:05 <int-e> oh there's a feb 2015 version of the " Classic Nintendo Games are (Computationally) Hard" thing... let's see if they've fixed all the bugs I know about :P
22:39:45 <int-e> http://arxiv.org/abs/1203.1895
22:40:25 <ais523> let's see how many bugs are fixed
22:41:37 <ais523> haha, they had to disallow total control TASes
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22:46:47 <int-e> Oh well, the problem I care about is still there.
22:50:07 <ais523> this construction proves PSPACE-hardness of Enigma (with no custom Lua used, it's obviously TC-hard if you're allowed to put an entire scripting language in there)
22:50:12 <int-e> (namely, in the crossover gadget for SMB, they do not consider the possibility of crossing it vertically as Supermario, leaving at the top, finding a Goomba, and returning as Mario to complete the gadget as if it were crossed horizontally.)
22:50:19 <ais523> however, I think there's a decent chance that idealized Enigma is uncomputable
22:50:46 <ais523> int-e: there are lots of bugs in crossovers in that paper, I think
22:51:01 <ais523> because they don't allow for "unusual" intended things the player can do
22:51:14 <int-e> the SMB one is the only one I've thought about in some detail; not actually knowing most of the games doesn't help :P
22:51:58 <ais523> I know most of the games
22:56:06 <ais523> int-e: at least the crossover bug you've seen, while valid, is easily fixable
22:56:19 <ais523> you can connect a large drop onto the top of the gadget, so that it's impossible to enter from above
22:56:37 <int-e> but I mailed them about it and they didn't fix it, which annoys me a bit
22:57:03 <ais523> we should clearly write a paper that's just full of corrections to that paper
23:00:11 <ais523> oh wow is the crossover for SMW broken
23:00:42 <ais523> approach from the top, break the top row of bricks, then crouch-slide to the left
23:00:58 <ais523> this is assuming you can cancel a spin jump; if it can't be cancelled then it probably works
23:01:08 <ais523> you'd have to block Mario carrying a Koopa shell all the way to the gadget but that seems doable
23:05:08 <int-e> the irony is that compared to v1, they already protected one of the entries of the vertical passage by a one-way device... but not the other one
23:07:04 <ais523> I haven't noticed a problem in SMB3 (assuming you can't carry koopa shells in that game), and SMW seems to work if you can't cancel a spin jump there
23:07:07 <int-e> I don't understand why they don't use the crouch-sliding protection from the SMB device in the SMW one as well.
23:08:09 <ais523> ah, I think their plan is that there isn't enough run-up room to crouch-slide
23:09:59 <shachaf> I never played Mario. Maybe I'm missing out.
23:10:10 <shachaf> In fact I don't think I ever played any Nintendo games.
23:10:24 <ais523> I believe the DKC construction works also for DKL1, DKC2, DKC3, and DKC Returns (probably also Tropical Freeze but I don't know enough about that game to be certain)
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23:11:04 <ais523> well, most Mario games are mostly about input precision
23:11:09 <ais523> and are quite easy if played slowly
23:11:19 <ais523> (playing them faster reduces your reaction times)
23:11:30 <ais523> sometimes they also have a sub-theme of working out routes through the level
23:11:35 <ais523> *reduces the time you have to react
23:11:51 <ais523> the exception is in the 3D games, which are quite different in how they work
23:12:03 <hppavilion[1]> I think one of its features has been done before, unfortunately
23:13:11 <ais523> hmm, their description of "all Donkey Kong games" seems wrong
23:13:14 <int-e> mmmmm, "Lemmings is PSPACE-complete"... something to dream about, good night
23:13:33 <ais523> that wouldn't work for Donkey Kong Country Returns, because a) it has no Zingers (for copyright reasons, IIRC), and b) both Kongs can take two hits
23:13:37 <ais523> trivially fixable, though, I think
23:14:16 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Surreals in general or their usage in this BF derivative?
23:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Well, all BF commands behave as normally, for starters
23:16:04 <hppavilion[1]> < and > move the tape to the left and to the right
23:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> But the unicode arrow equivalents move it an /infinite number of cells/ to the left and to the right
23:16:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think that a different set of unicode arrows will move infinitesimally
23:16:51 <Phantom_Hoover> the surreals are so big they're a proper class, not a set
23:17:23 <Phantom_Hoover> any language consisting of finite programs in a finite alphabet can only access countably many cells
23:17:24 <ais523> err, hmm, I'm not convinced that the DKC1 door construction works, e.g. I think you could just grab the Tire and throw it entirely out of the area when entering from the Open side
23:17:32 <ais523> unless I forget how Tires work in that game
23:17:32 <hppavilion[1]> (Not surreals in this case so much as the sum of surreals, so your location has a real, an infinite, and an infinitessimal part)
23:18:27 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I'm implementing it in python, where I'll be able to use dictionaries instead of just an array.
23:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm sort of being an asshole here, it's clear what you actually mean but it ain't the surreals
23:18:55 <Taneb> Ugh, I have to get up early and I am so tired
23:19:01 <Taneb> But I have a load of laundry on
23:19:32 <Phantom_Hoover> what you're describing sounds a lot like lexicographic order
23:20:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you have a move left instruction, and a move left infinity instruction
23:20:44 <Phantom_Hoover> why can't this just be modelled with move left and move up
23:21:03 <Taneb> It's closer to the gaussian integers
23:21:54 <Phantom_Hoover> the surreals have nothing to do with what you're describing
23:23:04 <Taneb> You can't just take a definition in mathematics and pretend that it means something that it really doesn't
23:23:09 <Taneb> That's not how mathematics works
23:23:12 <Taneb> It's not how anything works
23:23:18 <Taneb> It's just being wrong
23:23:23 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: No, I mean that I'm going to change the way my BF derivative works to make it fit
23:23:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't really care that you're wrong, i care that there's an easy way to be right and you're overlooking it
23:24:11 <Taneb> As Phantom_Hoover said, you can only access a countably finite number of cells
23:24:14 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Not using the surreal numbers you mean?
23:24:38 <Phantom_Hoover> if you have < and > to move left and right, and <' and >' to move left and right by infinity, this behaves exactly the same way as having < and > to move left/right and ^ and v to move up/down
23:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: I know, I know, I'm going to do it by using a sub... thing of the surreals. You can only access a countably finite number of BF cells normally, and BF is limited to the integers.
23:25:37 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I know, I know. I'm working on making a better definition
23:26:22 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: OK. So how can I at least emulate using the surreals in a BF-like program?
23:27:18 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd have to have some way to run > infinity times, then do some stuff after
23:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I can't literally do > infinity times, but I can pretend I do for the programmer's sake
23:28:15 <Phantom_Hoover> well you run up against the halting problem and thomson's lamp here
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23:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Is there a way I can /pretend/, for a programmer's sake, that I'm using Surreal Numbers
23:31:38 <Phantom_Hoover> what might be possible* is that you could hobble the language enough that you can reliably take the limit of a program as it runs forever, then add more computational power through transfinite operations
23:32:02 <Phantom_Hoover> *you'll need to do a lot more research, you're pretty confused about infinity right now
23:32:32 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: "thomson's lamp"?
23:33:02 <ais523> I did that to Agora once
23:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> Your creepy friend that stalks you, granted. But still your friend. You have bad choices in friends.
23:34:53 <ais523> I also used that to fix a misconception I had with Banana StackFlow
23:35:26 <ais523> (I'm trying to figure out M:tG's computational class: it's clearly above TC but it's unclear how far above, and in particular, whether it's capable of solving its own halting problem)
23:36:02 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], flash quiz: what's aleph one, what's beth one, and are they the same?
23:36:34 <ais523> "Moreover, Samus cannot traverse from the Check path down to the literal wires because she would have to jump and morph in mid-air." yes but you can do that in Super Metroid, that is an intended game mechanic
23:36:41 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: haha ;-)
23:37:00 <ais523> strangely enough, my intuitive feeling is that I know what aleph 1 is, but don't know what beth 1 is
23:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. I thought the hyperreals were just a 3-dimensional number, where one of the extra axes is infinity and the other is the infintessimal.
23:37:19 <ais523> (I mean, I know the definitions, this is more about an understanding of what "numbers" they represent)
23:38:02 <Phantom_Hoover> it still seems crazy to me that anyone talks about aleph 1 like it's a definite, friendly thing
23:38:20 <ais523> well, it's a definite, clearly defined thing
23:38:23 <ais523> it just has insane properties
23:39:13 <ais523> oh hmm, they have a cop-out fix for Super Metroid
23:39:38 <ais523> claiming that the constructions are broken by additional game mechanics but can be easily fixed, but not saying how
23:41:42 <ais523> the Pokémon construction requires the player's Pokémon to be level 100; otherwise it can conceivably screw up the construction via learning moves through level up
23:45:30 <ais523> the NP proof there is broken in Gold/Silver and later, though, due to the existence of Leftovers which can outheal Struggle (although it's easily fixable in Gold/Silver/Crystal, I am less certain about Ruby/Sapphire onwards)
23:46:21 <ais523> actually, there's this build known as "FunBro" whose only purpose is to make the battle last indefinitely long
23:46:32 <ais523> the idea being that eventually your opponent gives up and concedes
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23:52:40 <FireFly> ais523: how is M:tG clearly above TC?
23:52:53 <ais523> FireFly: the infinite loop + subgame rules, combined
23:53:27 <ais523> basically, you can create a potentially infinite loop in a subgame, then inspect the life totals in the main game to see whether the subgame was automatically declared a draw or not
23:53:35 <ais523> in order to solve the halting problem
23:53:45 <FireFly> Hm, are there non-(un-) cards with subgames? (sorry, I've only played a bit of M:tG)
23:53:54 <ais523> Shahrazad, but it got banned from every format
23:54:13 <ais523> mostly because people were playing it recursively in a method to stall out a game
23:54:21 <ais523> *as a method to stall out a game
23:54:40 <FireFly> Hmm, that is interesting though, yeah
23:56:37 <ais523> hmm, now I wonder if you can create a communications channel from a subgame to a main game whose size isn't bounded in advance
23:56:59 <ais523> I don't think so; you can wish cards out of the main game, but I don't think wishes work on tokens
23:57:07 <ais523> meaning you'd be bounded by the size of the deck
23:58:03 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], anyway, if you're still reading, it's cool that you're interested in this stuff, you just need to read more and better sources
23:58:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i regret that i can't recommend anything specific but there must be dozens of good explanations of cantor's groundwork by now
23:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I know, I'm currently reading as much as I can on Surreals
00:00:26 <FireFly> Surreal numbers are weird. I read a bit about them while reading up on Go, but I can't say I got them entirely
00:01:42 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], if you've not read stuff like cantor's diagonal argument you don't have much of a foundation to build on yet
00:04:17 <Phantom_Hoover> mathematical infinity comes in many forms, all of them unintuitive in some way
00:05:33 <shachaf> what's unintuitive about the conaturals
00:10:17 <HackEgo> bitwimpcoin tftberavecoin cycling-boobazocoin galcoin binacoin umannelcoin bylcoin quitcoin recurecoin befretruccoin discoin catchalchecoin smithutcoin 3756coin procoin excitercoin adedcoin shamcoin oozlecoin smacoin
00:10:52 <shachaf> if only i could get a round, tuitive coin
00:12:43 <shachaf> newsham: i had no idea you were into that kind of cryptography
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00:20:50 <ais523> I like "oozlecoin" the best out of those, I think
00:21:05 <ais523> although "quitcoin" has interesting implications
00:25:09 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:28:54 <zzo38> Only cards that let you to take stuff from the sideboard can be used to remove stuff from the main game (it will end up in the library of the main game instead, I think). As far as I know you can even take stuff from the ante zone of the main game but I am not sure (although your opponent can concede the subgame if wanted; I have been told that for the purposes of conceding, no effects are considered as atomic)
00:29:50 <FireFly> maybe "quitcoin" is for people trying to do something about their cryptocoin addiction
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00:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> So I think I won't use the surreals in this language, I'll save that for the Sequel language xD
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00:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should downgrade from the Surreals to the Ordinals?
01:02:13 <draghi> BF Derivative #98,000 - Ordinal Edition?
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01:32:10 <izabera> i need to kind of fuzzy match a string against a text, but i'm not interested in words that are very common and can be part of both
01:32:21 <izabera> so far i'm removing all the words that match the|.|..|with|and
01:33:55 <FireFly> The information retrieval approach is to have a huge corpus, and then weight words by the inverse document frequency (df = #documents that the word appears in, in the corpus)
01:34:09 <FireFly> Well, that is one approach at least
01:34:37 <FireFly> that way "more rare" words get weighted higher, and typically those are domain-specific
01:34:57 <izabera> how large is a huge corpus?
01:34:59 <FireFly> You might want to look at tf-idf weighting
01:35:17 <FireFly> I guess it depends on one's needs
01:35:36 <FireFly> What kind of strings are you matching?
01:35:54 <FireFly> I mean, what is the context of the fuzzy match
01:36:01 <izabera> you know those bots that print the title of the most recent url that was posted in a channel?
01:36:29 <izabera> that's the single most annoying feature in irc bots
01:36:41 <izabera> i'm trying to make one that's slightly less annoying
01:37:06 <izabera> www.pastebin.com/random/paste -> <stupidbot> Pastebin.com, your friendly neighborhood pastebin site
01:37:43 <izabera> www.random-wiki-website.org/wiki/how-to-set-up-the-interwebz -> <stupidbot> Random Wiki Website: How to set up the interwebz
01:38:04 <izabera> so it will ignore a list of known pastebin sites
01:38:22 <FireFly> I used to think they were pointless, but then I started idling in a channel with a titlebot like that and now I've kinda grown to like it
01:38:39 <FireFly> at least as long as they don't highlight the user posting the link
01:38:47 <izabera> http://arin.ga/8rBLLA/raw thiiiis
01:39:09 <izabera> from #musl a few hours ago when i got fed up with this
01:39:51 <izabera> so i have to guess if the title is similar enough to the url
01:40:09 <FireFly> one way to avoid that amount of stupidity would be to simply keep a cache of the past few titles posted to a channel, and ignore if the string matches exactly
01:40:23 <izabera> yeah that's one the to do list
01:41:48 <FireFly> maybe do something like: lowercase both strings, strip whitespace, find the longest common subsequence between the two
01:42:05 <FireFly> I guess stripping whitespace is unnecessary
01:42:37 <izabera> right now i'm splitting the words, removing the trivial ones that match that regex, comparing and check if X% of words match
01:42:38 <FireFly> but then the length of the longest common subsequence compared to the length of the string might say something about how much the title repeats the URL
01:42:51 <FireFly> it's a different approach to comparing words, though
01:44:22 <ais523> what's the point in a random paste button?
01:44:54 <ais523> I guess it'd be comparable to a random tweet button (does Twitter have one of those?)
01:47:16 <izabera> what is a random paste button?
01:47:40 <ais523> presumably you press it, and it shows you a random thing that has ever been pasted to a pastebin
01:48:11 * FireFly imagines a "random tweet" button that tweets one of those markov-chain-generated tweets that *ebooks accounts post
01:48:52 <ais523> does fungot have a twitter account?
01:48:52 <fungot> ais523: i'm going to check his legs, spinning him around and shoving him in the nuts and set fire to practically everybody,' said
01:48:55 <ais523> (I vaguely remember it does)
01:49:15 <ais523> also fungot seems to be in a very destructive mood today
01:49:15 <fungot> ais523: banjo's big bald head turned towards her. ' not after them big red statues turned up behind me like that!' she said.
01:49:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld* enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:49:49 <fungot> Selected style: ff7 (Full script of the game Final Fantasy VII)
01:49:54 <fungot> izabera: maybe if i don't! it's inoperable!! do something about it.
01:50:02 <fizzie> ais523: It had one, but it hasn't been tweeting in a while.
01:50:09 <FireFly> fungot: I think that's what she's doing
01:50:09 <fungot> FireFly: come on... the true power of mako reactor. and...... like turks! believe it.
01:50:15 <izabera> where did you download the full script of ff7?
01:50:35 <ais523> probably gamefaqs, there are people there who spend most of their time transcribing games
01:50:48 <ais523> and ff7 is popular enough that it's likely to have been transcribed by now
01:50:58 <FireFly> wait, not just ripping the text from the ROM?
01:51:05 <FireFly> That seems like it'd be much easier
01:51:21 <fizzie> I think they often start with a text dump.
01:52:00 <izabera> http://www.yinza.com/Fandom/Script.html
01:52:17 <fizzie> ct is the other game script fungot has.
01:52:18 <fungot> fizzie: cloud!? da-chao statue and leviathan are ashamed!!
01:52:43 <fizzie> Ooh, the swiping keyboard on my phone has learned "fungot".
01:52:43 <fungot> fizzie: guess i should fill the store with flowers. it'll be all right or not. that is where the knowledge of the jenova project. beautiful... lucrecia.
01:53:02 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
01:53:06 <fungot> Selected style: ss (Shakespeare's writings)
01:53:11 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
01:53:18 <fungot> izabera: come to think that a superhero! ya can't just ignore that and skip directly. your luck, lumpy? i took. and elan took. and elan took and i many years, and i see now that it's any good?
01:53:38 <fungot> Selected style: jargon (UNIX-HATERS mailing list archive)
01:53:40 <fungot> izabera: in my mail now. i fully expect that every action it takes 103416 bytes to your terminal. ( 3) restart the cron daemon by doing an up-front screening of potential users, it's a distributed operating system designed to run a program to do
01:53:59 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
01:54:15 <FireFly> fungot: any wisdom from the olden times?
01:54:15 <fungot> FireFly: there are some in cl), isn't it?
01:54:17 <izabera> i expected that thing on esr's website
01:54:40 <fungot> FireFly: razor-x also didn't read the page i pointed you to the conclusion that you are adamant against learning anything whatsoever, earn rightfully a bad grade in the class, the object model seems to fit exactly
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02:17:11 <izabera> i extracted all the urls, removed the irrelevant ones, splitted the words, counted them
02:17:33 <izabera> and the result looks boring
02:17:58 <izabera> my corpus: cat .weechat/logs/* | grep -Eo 'https?://[^[:blank:]]*|www\.[^[:blank:]]*' | grep -Ev 'pastebin|codepad|wiki|youtu|arin\.ga|ideone|gist\.|sprunge|ix\.io|paste|imgur|\.(jpg|png|pdf)$' > list
02:18:07 -!- draghi has quit (Quit: Leaving).
02:18:26 <izabera> the analysis thingy: sed -r '/.*\/./s|.*/||; s|^(https?://)?(www\.)?||; s/\.(html|php)$//' list | tr -sc A-Za-z '\n' | grep -wEv 'the|.|..|with|an[dy]' | sort | uniq -c | sort -n
02:20:38 <izabera> 495 linux 516 vim 794 awk 800 bash :\
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02:22:16 <izabera> well i do have 5 sexy 9 sex
02:30:53 <newsham> shachaf: i'm into cryptography?
02:33:47 <newsham> not exessively so.. i know a little.. enough to be dangerous, but luckily enough to not try to do it on my own
02:34:36 <shachaf> but are you into newshamcoin
02:35:08 <newsham> i dont hold any ecurrencies
02:35:30 <newsham> i once bought $100 in btc and sold some for $800 or so, and gave the rest to my brother
02:36:32 <newsham> i think it was worth $20k or so at one point?
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03:01:13 <zzo38> It seem like complicated and does not deal with non-HTTP URLs. (It is also possible for a URI to not be used to point to anything, although I suppose that is rare.)
03:04:09 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> How does one define a ring syntactically <-- it's a variety of algebras, which is defined by a set of operators and equations, which is pretty syntactic as math goes
03:04:48 <oerjan> a + b = b + a, a + (-a) = 0, a + 0 = a, a + (b + c) = (a + b) + c well that's the group part
03:06:27 <oerjan> a * (b * c) = (a * b) * c, a * 1 = a, 1 * a = a, a * (b + c) = (a * b) + (a * c), (a + b) * c = (a * c) + (b * c)
03:06:47 <oerjan> 1 part sometimes considered optional
03:07:56 <shachaf> how does one define a banana phone syntactically
03:09:01 <ais523> it was a bot, that IIRC output news headlines to the channel every now and then
03:09:10 <ais523> I think it was just created as a pun on "newsham"
03:09:15 <oerjan> shachaf: well you start with 7 rings and a swatter... -----###
03:09:26 <shachaf> did newsham have to do with it?
03:09:58 <oerjan> ...i think that corrected to @oeis
03:10:11 <ais523> well it's only two letters out
03:10:21 <oerjan> i vaguely think elliott made news-ham
03:10:50 <ais523> I think it might have done something else too, but I can't remember what
03:11:45 <ais523> well, the channel was frequently offtopic back then, even more so than now I think
03:11:58 <ais523> hppavilion[1] has dragged it ontopic a good proportion of the time, which I find to be a really good thing
03:14:22 <zzo38> See if you make Magic: the Gathering puzzles involving split second
03:15:36 <ais523> zzo38: make it involve morph to counter the split second!
03:16:03 <zzo38> ais523: Of course that is one thing, but there is many other thing to do.
03:17:34 <zzo38> Other thing though in some cases you might be able to do triggered abilities that now cannot be triggered due to split second, and then possibly you have to counter the spell with the split second anyways
03:20:19 <zzo38> Another idea would be puzzle that the solution change very different based on a few variations such as whose turn it is or what version of the rules is being played, or the timestamps of objects
03:24:51 <JesseH> So lets say someone has written a BF interpreter and compiler, and has written an interpreter for their own language which is super simple (can just split it by :'s and execute easily), what would be a good language to write an interpreter or compiler for that would teach something new, but not me too difficult of a project?
03:25:19 <Sgeo> Listening to a side-by-side comparison of Unison vs... whatver the heck I installed on here. Unison is winning
03:25:22 <Sgeo> Why did I ever abandon it
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03:26:11 <ais523> JesseH: you're looking for a language to implement that isn't too hard, but is more difficult in terms of parsing and/or semantics?
03:26:31 <ais523> what language are you writing in? (this affects my choice of answer)
03:27:54 <JesseH> ais523, Excuse me if the question sounds dumb, but I'm looking for something that wouldn't take a month, hopefully just a day or two, and still teach me something new about parsing and what not. I'd probably want to write it in Lua, JavaScript, or PHP, as those are the languages I'm currently working with.
03:28:01 <oerjan> i'll suggest underload since ais523 might feel too biased to do it hth
03:28:14 <ais523> oerjan: I was going to suggest Underload, but based on what JesseH's saying I think it'd be too easy
03:28:31 <ais523> because the languages he's mentioned have the primitives Underload needs already
03:29:13 <ais523> Forte would work well, yes
03:29:50 <ais523> JesseH: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Forte
03:30:00 <JesseH> I'll check that one out. :-)
03:33:59 <zzo38> Mana abilities can also be use while spell with split-second is on the stack, as well as morph, and some mana abilities have other effects too (such as sacrifice or damage or discarding), and you could have triggers based on any of these things, so you could potentially do many things with this, possibly though in an otherwise more complicated puzzle involving other things too, split-second is just one part of them
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03:43:18 <hppavilion[1]> So... has anyone started on an Esoteric Widget Toolkit yet?
03:44:03 <shachaf> ais523: What's the right channel for all the non-esoteric things you talk about in here?
03:44:08 <ais523> I don't think so (unless you count Gammaplex, or was it Deltaplex? which is a bit different)
03:44:18 <ais523> shachaf: sadly, probably here
03:44:24 <ais523> #esoteric-offtopic was used at some point
03:44:48 <ais523> my complaint's more about absence of ontopic conversation, rather than presence of offtopic conversation
03:45:11 <shachaf> I tend to find (some of) the offtopic conversation more interesting.
03:46:00 <shachaf> But I don't want to make the channel worse for you, so I wonder what I should be doing.
03:46:19 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: aha, could be
03:46:36 <ais523> some greek letter, anyway
03:46:50 <ais523> shachaf: the offtopic conversation (that we have nowadays, at least) rarely offends me
03:47:05 <ais523> just when this channel isn't discussing esolangs, I don't really have much of a reason to be here
03:47:18 <ais523> because similar offtopic conversations (on similar topics) can be held in half the channels I'm in
03:47:48 <ais523> and fwiw, there's quite a user overlap between the channels I'm in too
03:47:57 <ais523> maybe we should just make a social channel for that overlap
03:48:25 <shachaf> I don't think I'm in any of those channels.
03:48:45 <oerjan> nah just make a schedule for switching the discussion from channel to channel stwh
03:48:46 <shachaf> Maybe I used to be in some NetHack channels.
03:48:53 <ais523> shachaf: this is the only channel you share with me, right
03:49:04 <ais523> oerjan: what does the 's' stand for?
03:49:23 <ais523> I can guess the other three!
03:49:31 <pikhq> I think I need to creep on ais523 more. :P
03:49:56 <ais523> also I seem to have got into an argument on Reddit about whether anything in the real world can be TC, and if not, whether we should just use "TC" to mean bounded-storage machines
03:50:18 <ais523> pikhq: huh, you're in #tasvideos?
03:50:20 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a language called GUFunge ("Goo-funj"). It would be like Befunge with GUI support.
03:50:26 <ais523> I checked to see which channels we shared but didn't expect that one, for some reason
03:50:31 <pikhq> As of like two weeks ago; I mostly lurk.
03:50:39 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: why don't you add a GUI fingerprint to Befunge 98?
03:50:42 <shachaf> pft, at least get into that argument in the real world, rather than on reddit
03:50:46 <pikhq> ais523: I don't do TASing but I've lurked tasvideos for freaking ages.
03:50:47 <ais523> that way you'll be compatible with all the existing programs
03:51:10 <ais523> pikhq: fair enough; computer games are an esolang, after all
03:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I had an idea for part of an EsoGUI toolkit. Specifically, for the geometry manager
03:52:50 <shachaf> I think a definition broad enough to include computer games is broad enough to include...
03:52:54 <zzo38> I believe offtopic should be allowed on this channel too, but ontopic should have priority in case there is interference that someone complain about
03:53:00 <ais523> `addquote <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang
03:53:03 <HackEgo> 1256) <shachaf> What is an esolang? <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's an archaic term for an Esolang
03:53:08 <pikhq> shachaf: FWIW many computer games are TC in esoteric ways.
03:53:13 <ais523> that is craizly philosophical
03:53:25 <shachaf> pikhq: Sure, but being TC isn't a requirement for a language either.
03:53:31 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1]'s E down to size -----###
03:53:52 <ais523> I think that being TC is a sufficient condition for being a language, although not a necessary one
03:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> I just remembered an idea I had around when I first joined this channel...
03:54:17 <ais523> and that if something is a programming language, but not intended to be a usable programming language or a target for compilation into
03:54:27 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Which is what?
03:54:34 <ais523> that said, some languages which /are/ intended to be a target for compilation into are also esolangs
03:54:35 <pikhq> And thus Pokemon is a neat esolang.
03:54:37 <ais523> (e.g. Underlambda tier 1)
03:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> Queue Messenger System. It'd be a fun little `quote-like system where you can "&sendmsg <msg>" to send enqueue a message and "&getmsg" to get a message out.
03:55:22 <shachaf> What are other conditions for being a language?
03:55:34 <pikhq> (I think Pokemon in particular is a great example because the ACE is fairly easily done by a knowledgeable human being.)
03:55:51 <shachaf> I think esolangs (by this sort of definition) which aren't intended to be esolangs I'd probably find more interesting.
03:55:57 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Implementable, barring memory limitations?
03:56:16 <ais523> shachaf: well, one class of esolangs is "languages intended to point out incorrect assumptions in definitions of a language"
03:56:29 <ais523> something like Minimum or Unnecessary is normally considered an esolang
03:56:42 <zzo38> When you can make general-purpose computation with stuff that was never intended to do so, then it might be of interest
03:56:43 <ais523> but it doesn't really have much in common with languages, and even less with programming
03:57:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well, it's basically just a queue
03:57:07 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Some esolangs are uncomputable; we have the category of it in esolang wiki
03:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: But those aren't, in the traditional sense, languages
03:57:34 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: hmm, you mean as something that the channel does?
03:57:50 <ais523> you could probably write a queue into HackEgo
03:58:00 <ais523> but I think `quote might be more interesting
03:58:07 <ais523> or perhaps we could resurrect optbot
03:58:12 <pikhq> C++ templates are a pretty humorous example of an esolang.
03:58:23 <ais523> (when you mentioned optbot's name, it repeated a random past line from the channel)
03:58:34 <pikhq> Maybe a tad bit depressing that people use it, but still.
03:58:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: no, I mean reimplement optbot's functionality
03:58:43 <ais523> that way people wouldn't have to remember to put messages in
03:58:52 <pikhq> (thank god work bans that sort of "clever" shit)
03:58:59 <ais523> and you could still get messages out
03:59:11 <ais523> pikhq: it's fine if people use it with the intention of it being an esolang
03:59:22 <ais523> the use in Boost I'm less certain about
03:59:30 <hppavilion[1]> I could do that, but it doesn't preserve the "Letter to the Future" aspect
03:59:32 <ais523> if I think of it like an unsafe block from Rust, I can live with it
03:59:44 <HackEgo> 496) <CakeProphet> monqy: help how do I use lambdabot to send messages to people. [...around half an hour later...] <CakeProphet> @messages <lambdabot> quicksilver said 1y 2m 18d 19h 54m 29s ago: you use @tell
04:00:09 <pikhq> Google's policy on Boost in particular amuses me.
04:00:18 <pikhq> They have a short whitelist of parts of Boost you may use.
04:00:35 <pikhq> Those being ones they've evaluated as not sucking.
04:01:32 <pikhq> Not that I'm likely to do much C++ at Google, but I was a bit curious and read through the style guide a bit more thoroughly.
04:01:40 <zzo38> TeX probably kind of is intended for some general-purpose programming, but for doing things that are not much related to typesetting, the code can be a bit strange. Actually even if it is, such as if you are sorting an index, the code can be a bit strange since previously external programs would probably have been used instead.
04:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make my own bot, and perhaps add that functionality
04:01:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: another thing you can do is send messages to people's alternate nicks when they aren't online
04:02:05 <ais523> which is a fun way to do a "message to the future"
04:02:24 <ais523> (the use of the alternate nick means that there's likely to be quite some delay before it's actually received)
04:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> But I like the "Message to the Future from the Past of Esolangs" concept
04:02:55 <zzo38> Could you add a program into HackEgo to do?
04:03:12 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps make it a priority queue where priority of enqueued messages goes down as time progresses
04:03:27 <shachaf> I don't like programs that store things in HackEgo transiently because it messes up the commit history.
04:03:39 <shachaf> It would be nice if there was an uncommitted filesystem.
04:07:04 <ais523> hmm, I see half the things hppavilion[1] says and get annoyed because I don't like the ideas, and then realise it's my own assumptions that need re-evaluating
04:07:14 <ais523> esolangs are all about violating assumptions, much like art
04:07:24 <ais523> I don't think I'd have come up with http://esolangs.org/wiki/90 otherwise
04:07:38 <ais523> chess over IRC is totally doable, btw, although I haven't played chess in ages
04:07:45 <HackEgo> datergivcoin quccoin miscoin synoecoin ediumcoin genorfcoin brighfivecoin datiocoin carmcoin catchanilcoin bfcucoin superdcoin tobeliancoin edwardcoin woodcoin halcoin kimlcoin betacoin phistcoin habeiotcoin
04:08:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[90]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44584&oldid=44523 * Ais523 * (+17) add year category
04:08:40 <\oren\> chess with cryptographically precommitted moves 2 turns in advance
04:08:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: zzo38 has invented a ton of esoteric chess variants, I think
04:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> A violation of the basic metarules of chess? Yes. Do I care? No.
04:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps an exploration game, much like Dwarf Fortress. But chessier
04:09:46 <hppavilion[1]> Probably shouldn't do it over IRC though, now that I consider it
04:10:08 * ais523 vaguely remembers a game called ChessRogue
04:10:18 <ais523> but I've never played it, I only know it by reputation
04:11:29 <ais523> if you're anything like me, you'll end up starting a lot of projects and not finishing them
04:11:33 <ais523> but it's a good way to avoid becoming bored
04:11:48 <\oren\> see you encrypt a string containing a chess move like "pawn to a3 capture"
04:12:00 <\oren\> and send it to your enemy
04:12:15 <ais523> \oren\: what happens if your intended move was illegal?
04:12:24 <ais523> because of things your opponent did in between?
04:12:41 <ais523> I guess you could just lose the game, in which case the entire point of the game could be trying to win by invalidating your opponent's planned move
04:12:47 <ais523> checks would be very powerful in that regard
04:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Each client keeps a record of moves and terminates the game if the enemy cheats
04:13:24 <hppavilion[1]> So if you use a client that attempts to cheat, then you lose the game
04:13:38 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: \oren\'s idea is that you have to commit to moves in advance
04:13:41 <ais523> so it's not exactly cheating
04:13:44 <ais523> but making a promise you're unable to keep
04:14:00 <ais523> I wouldn't call that "cheating", but it does seem like a dubious operation
04:14:58 <hppavilion[1]> Good clients would, of course, check ahead of time that you don't make an invalid move so you don't lose. REALLY good clients make this disablable for hardcore players
04:15:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: no, say it starts 1. e4 (committing to e5) c5 2. e5, that's fine
04:16:08 <ais523> but after 1. e4 (commiting to e5) e5, White can't play e5 now even though they committed to it
04:16:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just listing off my own, technical specs for an unrelated game
04:16:24 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I did invent many chess variant, many of which I have never put into the computer yet
04:16:29 <zzo38> And some just ideas
04:16:49 <\oren\> yeah. so you send an encypted move to your enemy, then on you next turn you send him the password for it, so he can decrpyt it
04:16:54 <hppavilion[1]> Do you have any `wisdom on the subject such that I may make my own strange chess?
04:17:45 <zzo38> I don't know if there are any wisdom files about it
04:18:49 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
04:19:22 <zzo38> I invented a game that is designed to be as different from chess as possible while still being the same as chess. For one thing it is one-dimensional, it has different armies, you can use a deck of cards, etc.
04:19:59 <hppavilion[1]> I think the rules should be made by this channel, and be designed for esotericness (what else?).
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04:20:58 <zzo38> Another chess variant I made up is based on the limitations of Famicom PPU
04:21:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unnamed Chess Variant]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44585 * Hppavilion1 * (+178) Initialized Page
04:22:13 <zzo38> Yes you could try to make up such a thing
04:22:45 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make a collection of Pythonic chess clients that we can play over sockets. If anyone wants to play, they'll be on GitHub.
04:23:10 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Do you have any suggestions for the main variant?
04:23:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: really you should just ask zzo38, who is way better at esochess than I am
04:24:15 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: What are the main features I should add? Weird board? Weird pieces? Strange extra parts of the ruleset?
04:26:32 <ais523> how do you define "semicooperative"?
04:26:54 <ais523> there are of course 1-player cooperative card games already (the "patience" family), which might lead to a starting point
04:27:01 <hppavilion[1]> Dammit. Unicode doesn't have any nonstandard chess symbols. Guess ⚧ will be a piece xD
04:27:28 <quintopia> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_(card_game) this is a good starting point
04:27:37 <quintopia> semi-cooperative means competitive/cooperative
04:27:39 <ais523> most nonstandard chess pieces I've seen use regular chess symbols
04:27:41 <zzo38> Try the chess font I made for "TeX Chess"
04:27:51 <zzo38> That one has many nonstandard chess symbols included
04:27:53 <ais523> the main exception is "unicorn", which is normally drawn using the symbol for a knight but with an extra horn
04:28:41 <zzo38> (This font is intended for printing though, and might not be as good for use on screen)
04:29:41 <zzo38> The font I made (as well as the TeX Chess macro package, which also supports many variants and not only FIDE) is: http://zzo38computer.org/tex/texchess.zip
04:29:49 <ais523> hmm, Tri looks interesting
04:30:21 <ais523> although I suspect it could be "broken" via agreeing on entirely conventional meanings for the first few discards
04:32:31 <zzo38> Do you know how to play shogi?
04:32:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: is it, though, if you agree that before the game?
04:32:54 <ais523> zzo38: I did once, but can't remember all the details
04:34:08 <pikhq> Y'know, it's kinda sad. I want tea right now, but I accidentally bought decaf.
04:34:35 <pikhq> I'm still gonna make some, but it's not going to make me quite as happy.
04:34:40 <ais523> I was actually looking at contract bridge quite a bit recently
04:34:47 <ais523> because it reminded me of Rubicon
04:34:54 <ais523> and esoprogramming in general
04:35:11 <ais523> in that game you're trying to communicate a bunch with your partner via a prearranged protocol over a very low-bandwidth channel
04:36:06 <pikhq> Decaf black tea is definitely not the best.
04:36:14 <ais523> nowadays Bridge has a rule that you have to tell your opponents what protocol you're using
04:36:27 <ais523> and that particularly complex/unusual ones are banned in lower-level tournaments
04:38:18 <shachaf> I haven't played Bridge in ~15 years, I don't remember much.
04:40:10 <ais523> there are all sorts of charts about which conventions are too complicated (different ones in the US and UK)
04:40:21 <ais523> I've been slowly trying to design a Bridge protocol to skirt the edges of them
04:40:31 <ais523> while making close to the best possible use of bandwidth
04:42:47 <zzo38> Do you know much about Famicom PPU?
04:51:51 <ais523> I know only a very small amount
04:51:55 <ais523> more than zero, but not by much
04:52:08 <ais523> it can draw four sprites and a background, right?
04:52:15 <ais523> …that's about the extent of my knowledge
04:53:22 <zzo38> Actually you can have up to 64 sprites
04:53:55 <ais523> onscreen at the same time?
04:54:28 <zzo38> Only 8 sprites per scanline though; any more will not be drawn on that scanline
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05:03:08 <HackEgo> 274) <elliott> A priori one cannot say that post hoc ergo propter hoc the diminishing returns would give; yet under quid pro quo one can agglutinate fabula and sujet into vagrancies untold. <elliott> See? I'm intellectual. \ 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover.
05:03:17 <HackEgo> 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
05:04:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that's from the continuous chess variant we once discussed here
05:04:45 <oerjan> except, possibly, the Atlantic part.
05:05:39 <oerjan> basically a piece covered a square and you could move only parts of it
05:06:38 <oerjan> hm i'm not sure if you could move two half-pieces in one move or the like
05:06:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Non-sexual]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44586 * 66.58.231.93 * (+89) Created page with "This category lists all languages that are not, in some way, relevant to human sexuality."
05:08:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Category:Non-sexual]]": unapproved category
05:08:23 <ais523> I'm pretty sure that was trolling
05:08:35 <oerjan> darn you beat me by a second
05:08:36 <ais523> but for now, let's delete it with an iron-clad deletion reason and see what happens
05:08:53 <oerjan> my reason was "Do I really need a reason"
05:10:47 <ais523> [Whois] hppavilion[1] is ~Devourero@93-231-58-66.gci.net (realname)
05:10:58 <ais523> quite a coincidence of IP there…
05:11:36 <ais523> just don't do it again
05:11:44 <oerjan> darn and i had almost concluded that could be hagb4rd
05:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> That satisfies my biannual (every 2 years, not twice a year) random troll. I'm done for now.
05:12:13 <ais523> right, I was checking to see if the IP was a known troll because I thought it might be something much worse
05:12:41 <oerjan> i had two different whois checks in my terminal window and scrolled up too far
05:14:08 <oerjan> and the other wasn't hagb4rd either, just german, i'd forgotten about it.
05:15:33 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you are forgiven http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20050606
05:20:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blind]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44587&oldid=21436 * Ais523 * (+575) /* Computational class */ is TC; the simplest way is to encode a cellular automaton
05:20:50 <ais523> I just proved a language TC
05:21:10 <ais523> so I made actual esolanging progress today, always good to see
05:22:08 <hppavilion[1]> The concept of an "Orphaned WikiPage list" is kind of paradoxical
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05:26:02 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the trick is that it's not made of wikilinks, but of ordinary HTML links
05:38:04 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: something much worse than you messing around, that is
05:38:27 <ais523> my first thought was "I wonder if this is someone who we banned from esowiki in the past, editing logged out to dodge the ban"
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05:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> How do I fork something in an Organization as a new thing on GitHub?
05:41:22 <hppavilion[1]> Or is that bad practice and I should use branches?
05:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> So to repeat an idea I brought up earlier to see if it's of any interest: GUI over IRC
05:55:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: my experience with github is that branches save a lot of trouble compared to forks
05:56:19 <ais523> in actual git their mostly equivalent, but github screws up its fork handling for organizations really badly
05:57:26 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a way for people to communicate via GUIs
05:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> Wouldn't that be an interesting form of communication? Probably useless, but...
05:58:17 <ais523> couldn't you just use a GUI IRC client?
05:58:20 <ais523> or do you mean something else?
05:58:24 <ais523> (ever seen MS Comic Chat?)
05:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: When I say GUI over IRC, I mean that the /messages/ can include GUI
06:00:34 <ais523> GUI has a specific meaning (a user interface that uses graphics for communication)
06:00:42 <ais523> sending user interfaces over IRC doesn't make a whole lot of sense
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06:00:49 <ais523> unless you wanted to, say, tunnel X over IRC
06:00:50 <shachaf> with each message, you send a user interface to the other party which replaces their irc client
06:00:57 <shachaf> they have to use that ui to respond to you
06:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: That gives me an idea. Esoteric IRC client
06:03:21 <shachaf> There's a Go idiom where you send a message over a channel that includes a channel to send a response over.
06:03:24 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I was planning an esoteric IRC client once
06:03:37 <ais523> one of the features was that you could swap nicks with someone else
06:03:48 <ais523> without the server or anyone else in the room knowing
06:03:59 <ais523> (technically, it worked via getting each of the client to post messages for the other)
06:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> What other features would be fun to mess with people with?
06:04:53 <shachaf> I guess maybe that's also a pi calculus idiom.
06:05:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure that got convoluted and slow very quickly
06:05:20 <ais523> well it was never actually implemented
06:05:32 <ais523> pi calculus is sort-of a concurrency version of lambda calculus
06:05:47 <ais523> (i.e. that models concurrency rather than functions)
06:06:08 <ais523> and an idiom is a phrase or other short sequence that has taken on a meaning of its own
06:06:21 <ais523> and is used directly without really thinking about the constituent parts
06:06:37 <ais523> e.g. a moderately common idiom in C is the !! operator, which casts integer to boolean
06:06:46 <ais523> (it's really two not operators, but people think of it as a unit)
06:08:44 <ais523> in natural language, idioms often make no sense when you look at their constituent words
06:09:01 <ais523> but in programming language, it has to be at least correct enough that the compiler understands
06:11:19 <shachaf> In Ruby, "x while y" means "while y; x; end", and "begin x end" means the same as "x", but "begin x end while y" means "x; while y; x; end"
06:11:54 <zzo38> In C and some other program language you can use macros though
06:12:22 <zzo38> But I have used !! in C as well as in JavaScript codes and some other programming languages; it is not only for C
06:13:16 <ais523> shachaf: that's similar to Perl, where "x while y;" means "while (y) {x};", and "do {x}" is equivalent to "x" if "x" is an expression, but "do {x} while y;" means "x; while (y) {x};"
06:14:12 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone feel like developing their own little free Wolfram-like language over the next 40 years, and making it FOSS just as a middle finger to the people who thought it was a good idea to make a proprietary programming language?
06:14:22 <JesseH> So Forte is looking interesting.
06:14:33 <shachaf> ais523: Probably inspired by that.
06:14:34 <JesseH> hppavilion[1], Hell to the yeah.
06:14:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well Wolfram's language itself is pretty terrible, to be fair
06:15:04 <ais523> the only redeeming feature is the library it's normally shipped with
06:15:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I do think it is good idea to make up a free stuff like that yes. But it can even be a better kind of program too
06:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: True. I don't trust any language that includes non-ascii characters builtin
06:15:22 <ais523> which I suspect took a huge amount of effort
06:15:36 <shachaf> Anyway I was thinking of a case where something used to be an idiom with a meaning in a language, but then the constructs it was made of were changed, but it was kept around as a special case.
06:15:58 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: That library is pretty amazing though. I mean, blurring faces in <20 lines of code is impressive.
06:16:19 <ais523> well, a library can do anything, really
06:16:32 <ais523> it's what proportion of useful things you can do that you care about
06:16:43 <ais523> I've written a library that simulates NetHack games, you can use it with a few lines of code
06:16:50 <ais523> but it doesn't do anything else
06:16:59 <oerjan> shachaf: what about that XOR EAX, EAX thing
06:17:10 <zzo38> Mostly reason to make FOSS Wolfram-like language so that you can run the same program on both
06:17:10 <shachaf> I guess that's an example.
06:17:43 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to develop a language for this though
06:17:54 <ais523> oerjan: but "xor eax, eax" zeroes rax under x86_64 semantics without a special case
06:18:18 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that making a language that complex that doesn't use non-ascii characters is a bit absurd
06:18:19 <oerjan> ais523: um that was the point?
06:18:26 <shachaf> That's supposed to be xchg eax, eax, isn't it?
06:18:46 <oerjan> of course i may have misremembered what the special case was
06:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> I guess the IDE adds characters like that for you...
06:19:11 <ais523> oerjan: I thought the point you were trying to make was that a special case was added just so that you could zero well
06:19:22 <ais523> also I was thinking about possibly there might be something to do with nop
06:19:35 <ais523> you can put a bunch of addressing modes on nop in order to make it longer
06:19:45 <ais523> but putting addressing modes on xchg eax, eax would cause problems
06:19:55 <zzo38> A SQLite extension to access various data such as weather and so on a bit similarly to Mathematica might be a good idea in my opinion
06:19:56 <ais523> xchg eax, (eax) means something quite different (and doesn't have a corresponding opcode, I think)
06:19:58 <shachaf> Well, 0x90 doesn't mean xchg eax, eax anymore in x86-64
06:20:04 <shachaf> Since that would zero the upper 32 bits.
06:20:36 <shachaf> ais523 is the expert in 0x90, I guess.
06:20:38 <hppavilion[1]> (I now have to actualize my goal xD) I want to develop a fully-functional, high-level language, with as powerful tools as Mathematica and the like, just because I'm stuck in mind-numbing boredom. I have no clue how to do this, and am horribly underqualified, but dammit I want to.
06:21:21 <ais523> so what's the idiomatic way to truncate rax to 32 bits in x86_64? (not that it's likely to be a very useful operation in most cases, I'm just curious)
06:22:15 <shachaf> Also, xor eax, eax is implemented as a special case in CPUs, even if its behavior isn't special-cased.
06:22:43 <shachaf> Since it doesn't depend on the value of eax, unlike other uses of xor.
06:22:44 <ais523> does "xor ebx, ebx" have an encoding?
06:24:58 <shachaf> In x86-64 xchg eax, eax is encoded as 87 c0
06:26:05 <ais523> huh, so there was a "short encoding" for certain xchg commands, but also a general one
06:27:16 <shachaf> I guess 87 c0 also encodes xchg eax, eax in x86-32, but assemblers just don't generate it.
06:27:40 <ais523> the only reason to do so would be for alignment purposes
06:27:51 <ais523> and most assemblers don't align via generating inefficient encodings, but rather by adding nops
06:28:05 <ais523> alignment padding on x86_64 is hilarious
06:28:07 <shachaf> xchg eax, eax is a nop in x86-32
06:28:14 <ais523> you start with nop and pile on as many modifiers as you can
06:28:19 <shachaf> I used to have a bunch of tools set up to look at things like this but I don't anymore.
06:28:39 <ais523> apparently you can give data16 multiple times
06:28:47 <shachaf> There's a collection of fastest nops for each size for each CPU in Linux somewhere.
06:28:51 <ais523> to make arbitrarily long commands (although I suspect there's a limit)
06:29:02 <shachaf> Aren't x86 instructions limited to 10 bytes or so?
06:31:50 <ais523> x86_64 clearly has a higher limit than that, although I'm not sure of the precise value
06:32:21 <ais523> 15 would make sense (to allow alignment on 16-byte boundaries)
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06:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> So... no one wants to help in the design of my FOSS counter-wolfram lang?
06:50:38 <fizzie> I seem to recall a limit of 15, too.
06:52:00 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: we're just really busy
06:52:06 <ais523> there's a ton of things I'd like to help with but I don't have time
06:52:18 <zzo38> I do not know a lot about Mathematica though, so I cannot say. But, I have suggested SQLite extensions which could substitute for some of the data-access stuff such as weather and countries and chemistry and whatever, and then another extension could be used to plot the data on the graph.
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07:30:01 <izabera> why do you know the hex version of assembly code?
07:31:52 <izabera> do you need to know them for writing compilers or what?
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07:38:17 <ais523> izabera: you need to know it when writing assemblers, and it also matters if for some reason the number of bytes that one command assembles to matters (which it did, kind-of, in this conversation)
07:38:44 <ais523> also stating the encoding of a command is a decent way to prove that there /is/ such an encoding
07:41:05 <izabera> i wouldn't really call that a proof...
07:53:31 <fizzie> `` o=$(tempfile -s .o); echo 'add $1, %eax' | as -o $o - && objdump -d $o | grep '0:' | sed -e 's/\t/ /g;s/ */ /g;' # possible HackEgo command here
07:53:32 <HackEgo> 0: 83 c0 01 add $0x1,%eax
07:53:36 <oerjan> the real reason is that true programmer geeks soak up numbers like sponges hth (disclaimer: not a true programmer geek)
07:53:58 <fizzie> Possibly get rid of the 0: too.
07:55:23 <izabera> oerjan: i understand that but i can't see how one can ever be exposed to that
07:56:09 <izabera> and i realize that it may sound like an accusation, but i'm really just curious
07:56:15 <shachaf> llvm-mc is one of the tools I was thinking of.
07:59:16 <izabera> also what is that tempfile command? it's not in the arch repos
08:01:01 <shachaf> Part of a package called debianutils, here.
08:06:18 <izabera> what's the difference with mktemp? :\
08:09:03 <shachaf> "tempfile is deprecated; you should use mktemp(1) instead."
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11:38:15 <fizzie> The difference is that I didn't remember what the command-line command was, so I just looked for tab completion from "temp".
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13:02:30 <izabera> is there any tool that can be used to simulate a laggy connection?
13:10:03 <ais523> yes but I can't remember what it is
13:10:15 <ais523> some iptables setting, perhaps?
13:37:29 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/614795/simulate-delayed-and-dropped-packets-on-linux
13:39:17 <izabera> most google results are windows only or bsd/osx only
13:39:42 <izabera> https://jagt.github.io/clumsy/ this looks pretty cool :\
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14:13:13 <HackEgo> antediluvian/We could tell you what antediluvian means, but that would just open a flood of questions.
14:46:53 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
14:52:43 <fizzie> There's a number of them.
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14:54:39 <fizzie> http://info.iet.unipi.it/~luigi/dummynet/ is one.
14:56:04 <boily> holy fungot is that one ugly website...
14:56:04 <fungot> boily: i can do something like: allocate cons-cells and bigger object separately, tagging cons-cells with fnord and outmoded concepts such as memory addresses, or look at peter wegner's more recent 10 years or so, iirc
14:56:05 <int-e> . o O ( The original meaning of antediluvian has been washed away. )
14:56:26 <fizzie> Yes, I've noted the ugly website too.
14:56:59 <fizzie> Oh, and Facebook's ATC also made the news.
14:57:05 <fizzie> http://facebook.github.io/augmented-traffic-control/
14:57:35 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
14:58:08 <boily> facebook has an ATC???
14:58:36 <fizzie> It's perhaps a bit more Linux-native (iptables + tc, as opposed to FreeBSD ipfw stuff), and very much designed for testing mobile apps against "reasonable" profiles.
14:58:57 <boily> bon samedi pis plein d'affaires de même!
14:59:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 031400Z 06017KT 30SM FEW025 BKN240 08/02 A3062 RMK CU1CI6 SLP369
14:59:06 <lambdabot> KATL 031452Z 04009KT 10SM SCT012 OVC025 17/13 A2971 RMK AO2 DZE14 SLP056 P0000 60001 T01670133 53005
14:59:23 <boily> quintopia: pfeuh. you vile bourgeois living in warm weathers.
15:00:07 <lambdabot> EGLL 031450Z AUTO 22006KT 190V260 7000 NCD 16/10 Q1013
15:00:50 <fizzie> It was a cold (FSVO) and dim morning, but then turned out to be all nicelike.
15:01:39 <quintopia> this week i learned that the shape of finland is very generic and nondescript
15:01:53 <fizzie> Huh? It's human-shaped.
15:02:26 <fizzie> A woman wearing a dress, to be more precise.
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15:03:22 <quintopia> it still is not as readily visually identifiable as thailand or mexico or mauritania :)
15:03:41 <fizzie> Maybe the other arm would help, but we no longer have it.
15:04:36 <fizzie> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Finland#/media/File:Finland_1920.png
15:04:42 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's not much of an improvement.
15:04:42 <boily> well, Finland would have to exist first if we want to describe its shape.
15:05:36 <fizzie> (Also the arms are proportionally speaking rather tiny.)
15:09:03 <ais523> where does this theory that finland doesn't exist come from?
15:09:12 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
15:10:32 <quintopia> https://m.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/2qjohv/what_did_your_parents_show_you_to_do_that_you/
15:11:01 <quintopia> this kid was raised not to believe in it
15:11:16 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
15:11:26 <HackEgo> Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
15:11:47 <int-e> And therefore, Math is Peace.
15:12:37 <boily> the Recurscandinavian Countries.
15:12:41 <int-e> I suspect one of the premises is flawed. Or my hidden assumption that no Nobel price is announced twice.
15:13:28 <ais523> well, if norway and sweden are contained within each other
15:13:29 <ais523> wouldn't any announcement in either necessarily happen in both?
15:13:39 <ais523> just like an announcement that takes place in London also takes place in England
15:13:48 <HackEgo> olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
15:14:36 <int-e> `? misspellings of croissant
15:14:37 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:14:39 <int-e> that one is so silly.
15:15:50 <quintopia> i dont see how one could misspell it that badly
15:16:01 <int-e> `rm wisdom/devious
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15:17:04 <int-e> `cat wisdom/itidus*
15:17:05 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/itidus*: No such file or directory
15:17:09 <int-e> `` cat wisdom/itidus*
15:17:10 <HackEgo> itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly \ itidus20's entry has been censored. \ itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
15:19:13 <int-e> `` cat wisdom/[ck]anada
15:19:14 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big. \ Your bankers' vain plazas never nutured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all collapsing while your corrupt mayors shrug
15:20:21 <int-e> is there a story here?
15:25:51 <boily> . o O ( /bʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʙʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀʀmɒ/ )
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15:29:11 <int-e> `le/rn drone sex/Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Controlled experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
15:30:08 <boily> huh. HackEgo uses French guillemets. I didn't notice that before.
15:31:05 <int-e> well, `learn doesn't
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15:35:21 <HackEgo> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
15:35:33 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/footnote 8
15:35:35 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf
15:36:49 <int-e> damn now I'm wondering whether it really was footnote 8
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15:38:48 <boily> it's the eighth footnote. it's footnote eight. it is logical.
15:40:46 <HackEgo> A hollow voice says "Plugh"
15:40:54 <boily> I believe those are mine.
15:41:38 <int-e> Okay, it was footnote 11 (though it's quite possible that the joke was used several times).
15:41:50 <int-e> Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
15:41:50 <int-e> This is the famous recursive footnote (Footnote 12).
15:43:44 <int-e> (But I first saw it in the Hitchhiker infocom game.)
15:51:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44588&oldid=44582 * Vihan * (+92) Added KEEP command
15:52:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44589&oldid=44588 * Vihan * (+48) Added example
15:53:18 <shachaf> int-e: I think I just didn't look up the number.
15:53:35 <shachaf> Or rather I reused the text and not the number, because the HackEgo footnote system is different.
15:53:44 <shachaf> But it wouldn't hurt to add a few footnotes throughout wisdom/.
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16:24:37 <b_jonas> ais523: there's one more thing I forgot about ayacc. Since you distribute it as a bare script file snapshot through http now, can you throw in an __END__ (or control-z character) to the end of the script so that there's an easy way to tell that the file is not truncated please?
16:25:12 <ais523> I'll think about it when I get back to ayacc
16:25:26 <ais523> this is a pretty unusual request, though (especially because the webserver doesn't exactly keep its size secret)
16:25:54 * boily drinks coffee. boily is happy.
16:25:55 <b_jonas> yes, it's not too important
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17:05:32 <fizzie> Some of these Selenium WebDriver method names are... well, overly Java-ey.
17:05:34 <fizzie> E.g. ExpectedConditions.frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt.
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17:09:55 <fizzie> They're also occasionally inconsistent. There's presenceOfAllElementsLocatedBy(By locator) but presenceOfElementLocated(By locator). The first one leads to duplicate By-ness if you use a By.id(...) style locator.
17:11:11 <oerjan> SeleniumWebDriverOverlyLongJavaMethodName
17:11:44 * oerjan doesn't actually know java case conventions
17:14:50 * oerjan translates boily's greeting and gets udder nonsence
17:15:30 <lambdabot> ENVA 031650Z 12004KT CAVOK 10/07 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT
17:16:33 <fizzie> UpperCamelCase for types and lowerCamelCase for other things, to summarize it very briefly.
17:16:52 <fizzie> And UPPERCASE_WITH_SNAKES for constants.
17:17:52 <oerjan> SERPENTIALLY_OVERWROUGHT_VALUES, check
17:21:24 <ais523> fizzie: classes are UpperCamelCase
17:21:28 <ais523> primitive types are in lowercase
17:21:37 <ais523> (because they wouldn't parse otherwise, among other things)
17:24:29 <boily> oerjan: «pis» can mean udder, but is common vernacular for “and” hth
17:24:34 <fizzie> I'm not sure if annotations count as classes, but they're in @UpperCamelCase.
17:26:21 <fizzie> And type variables are UpperCamelCase except often only one letter, and/or suffixed by a T.
17:26:53 <fizzie> According to the language standard, interfaces are not classes, and they're also UpCaCa.
17:27:42 <boily> oerjan: also, how do you pronounce "dt"?
17:28:02 <fizzie> (Annotations seem to count as interfaces, apparently.)
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17:29:16 <oerjan> boily: the d is silent hth
17:29:43 <oerjan> or alternatively, dt ~ tt in pronunciation
17:30:40 <oerjan> d is frequently silent in norwegian, especially nynorsk like this
17:31:45 <oerjan> (the d in god is also silent)
17:31:57 <boily> but not laurdag because reasons?
17:32:08 <oerjan> well there it starts a syllable
17:32:25 <ais523> boily: I often use «» as an IRC equivalent of <code></code>
17:32:27 <oerjan> it's mostly silent at the end of them, or before consonants
17:32:39 <ais523> because it's unlikely to clash with anything in the text I'm trying to quote (which is normally ASCII)
17:32:44 <ais523> possible exception: Perl 6
17:32:51 <oerjan> g is also often silent in similar places, but not in laurdag
17:34:59 <boily> Norwegian is weird... silent letters all over the place. *shudders*
17:35:00 <oerjan> also the a in the au diphtong is closer to ø than a
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17:36:23 <oerjan> it might depend on dialect, i saw a claim in wikipedia it was close to æ
17:37:59 <oerjan> boily: yeah you're lucky french doesn't have any
17:40:53 <boily> ours are all nicely sorted out at the end of each word, not haphazardly strewn in the middle of them! that's uncouth and vulgar. tsé.
17:41:42 <boily> what other language has perfected the art of «-aient»?
17:42:27 <oerjan> the -ai- part is also silent? i never got to the more advanced tenses in french class.
17:43:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, the "ai" is pronounced
17:43:22 <b_jonas> only the "-ent" ending is silent (and only in verbs)
17:44:34 <boily> third person plural indicative imperfect.
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17:53:49 <\oren\> I think I would have learned more french in high school had they stuck to teaching spoken frenh
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17:55:33 <\oren\> but no, I remember tests in which you had to remember all these extra letters
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17:58:07 <boily> さぁ、c'est pas si pire que ça でしょう.
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18:04:34 <boily> hppavellon[1]. do you conjugate your verbs?
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18:10:59 <oerjan> <fizzie> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Finland#/media/File:Finland_1920.png <-- huh i didn't know finland reached all the way to the arctic ocean between the world wars
18:11:12 <oerjan> and separating norway from the soviet union, even
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18:13:16 <\oren\> oerjan: would you prefer to have a buffer between you and Russia?
18:13:49 <oerjan> right now that might be nice
18:14:10 <oerjan> otoh then the finns would probably demand some of the sea border, too
18:16:30 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:17:00 <oerjan> Gregor: erm repository browser is no longer working halp
18:22:28 <int-e> oerjan: I got intermittent proxy failures earlier... try again?
18:23:00 <oerjan> i'm just getting this page with a guy in a hat tdnh
18:24:35 <int-e> odd, works for me.
18:25:11 <oerjan> with the url in the `help?
18:25:20 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:26:02 <int-e> and I don't even have any funny entries in /etc/hosts (this has happened before... it was worth checking)
18:26:23 <oerjan> it just redirects, which is annoying because i cannot reload the page when i cannot get to it...
18:26:32 <oerjan> it did change gregor's hat, though
18:27:10 <int-e> Gregor has several hats?
18:27:39 <oerjan> is there really any possibility that you haven't noticed that before
18:27:47 <int-e> so he does, on http://codu.org/
18:28:07 <oerjan> look in the about me menu
18:28:12 <int-e> yes, I normally don't reload the page... and I'm only there very rarely.
18:29:12 <int-e> (what I really meant is that the picture on the home page changes randomly... didn't realize that before)
18:30:44 <int-e> oerjan: but still I have no clue how you end up on that page since codu usually prints 404 rather than redirecting you to the root...
18:31:36 <int-e> have you tried a different browser?
18:31:57 <int-e> are you behind any funny filters that would object to the word "sex"?
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18:33:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think the green highlighting in http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm is inaccurate
18:34:37 <int-e> `fetch http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg
18:34:41 <HackEgo> 2015-10-03 18:34:27 URL:http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi [21582] -> "fshg" [1]
18:34:47 <HackEgo> <!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd"> \ <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" xml:lang="en-US"> \ <head> \ <link rel="icon" href="/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/static/hgicon.png" type="image/png" /> \ <meta name="robots" content="index, nofollow" /> \ <link rel="stylesheet" href
18:34:58 <oerjan> i'm now trying to set IE to reload pages on every visit. unfortunately that caused it to nag that the disk usage was too high and i am now waiting for it to resize the cache or something.
18:35:06 <int-e> `` grep changeset fshg
18:35:07 <HackEgo> <li><a href="/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/a144396c7197">changeset</a></li> \ <div id="hint">find changesets by author, revision,
18:36:06 <int-e> oh right, a cached "moved permanently" would do the trick...
18:36:39 * int-e doesn't know the numeric value.
18:36:49 <oerjan> nope. it just reloads the codu.org page itself.
18:38:07 <oerjan> wait, does the browse use flash (ok not likely)
18:38:16 <oerjan> i just disabled it in general
18:38:57 <int-e> Dear Virtualbox, what do you mean by "General failure - DON'T USE THIS!!!"?
18:42:30 <oerjan> darn, there's a list of "allowed sites" for flash but it won't let me edit it to anything other than * or empty
18:43:26 <oerjan> so much for my plan to see if it was responsible for the cpu leak i've been experiencing recently
18:44:43 <oerjan> oh well i'll just put this down to the universe's general dislike of me using computers.
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19:03:12 <\oren\> b_jonas: Oh. Yeah, hold on, I'll fix that
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19:22:35 <b_jonas> \oren\: great, now only the new kanji/hanzi are green
19:22:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
19:30:07 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, I don't see that problem where the kanji don't line up in a grid anymore. either you fixed it, there was a cache problem, or it differs by which browser or system I'm viewing the page in.
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19:33:19 <int-e> Wow, seriously? That error indicates that virtualbox cannot access any audio device?!
19:34:36 <int-e> (this is not entirely clear, but disabling the soundcard as suggested by https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=69722 did help me as well)
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19:36:05 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
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19:58:01 <tswett> boily: it's not /kʀwa'zɔ̃/?
19:59:16 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] So I guess you'd define a ring syntactically by means of a ring presentation.
20:03:00 <oerjan> it might be undecidable whether two terms are equal, for one thing.
20:03:24 -!- XorSwap has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
20:03:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean i took a module on hyperbolic groups last term and that was bad enough
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20:16:42 <tswett> And of course, given two presentations, you can't tell whether they present isomorphic rings or not.
20:16:51 <tswett> I guess that's probably semidecidable, right?
20:18:28 <oerjan> yeah if you can guess the formulation of each generator set in the other, and the equality proofs...
20:18:35 -!- XorSwap has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:20:09 <oerjan> s/guess/brute force search/
20:20:25 <\oren\> whats a hyperbolic group
20:20:46 <HackEgo> hyperbolic group? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:21:33 <\oren\> I bet it's a group that exaggerates things
20:21:34 <oerjan> `le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best group there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer.
20:21:37 <HackEgo> Learned «hyperbolic group»
20:21:53 <oerjan> `le/rn hyperbolic group/Hyperbolic groups are the best groups there are, they're totally awesome and cure cancer.
20:21:55 <HackEgo> Learned «hyperbolic group»
20:22:14 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] A ring presentation consists of a bunch of variables and equations of the form "P = 0", where P is a polynomial in those variables. The elements of the ring are all possible polynomials in those variables, with the caveat that two polynomials are equal if and only if you can show that they're equal given the equations.
20:22:26 <tswett> Somebody will now criticize my definition.
20:22:55 <oerjan> it scans horribly tdnh
20:23:49 <tswett> I tried to scan it and my scanner said I was counterfeiting money and automatically called the police!
20:24:09 <shachaf> This presentation thing only works for finite cases, right?
20:24:25 <tswett> For finite cases of what?
20:25:35 <oerjan> tswett: i guess you shouldn't have included the Omron rings in your presentation
20:26:06 <oerjan> shachaf: also _some_ infinite ones hth
20:26:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, but those are just special cases, right?
20:26:38 <oerjan> there's also infinite presentations. so no, it covers everything.
20:26:56 <oerjan> rather trivially, really.
20:27:01 <tswett> Only finitely presented rings have presentations that are finite.
20:27:02 <shachaf> OK, but you have to be more careful for infinite presentations?
20:27:25 <tswett> Every group is "infinitely presented"—just say the generators are its elements and the relations are the true equations.
20:27:39 <oerjan> (just include a generator for every element and an equation for every arithmetic pairing)
20:27:59 <shachaf> "There are infinitary theories (such as that of complete Boolean algebras - see Johnstone [82]) where this is insuperable and presentations simply don't present algebras. For frames, fortunately, presentations do present, but we have to argue slightly carefully to show this. The trick is ..."
20:28:26 <shachaf> I guess that's not relevant to rings.
20:28:41 <oerjan> this generalizes to any variety of universal algebra, i assume.
20:28:50 <\oren\> I always hated doing presentations in school
20:28:54 <oerjan> which may not include every "theory".
20:29:06 <shachaf> Even universal algebra where you have infinite-ary operators?
20:29:26 <oerjan> completeness is probably a topological thing so you cannot include it
20:30:15 <shachaf> What's a good rice to use for that Norwegian rice thing?
20:30:25 <tswett> \oren\: which were your least favorite: individual presentations, group presentations, or ring presentations?
20:30:41 <shachaf> Do you wash the rice or is it better to keep the starch?
20:31:58 <\oren\> think I liked the individual ones the least
20:32:33 <\oren\> I've never done a ring presentation (although I have had a few girlfriends)
20:32:47 <oerjan> shachaf: customary the rice is short and white, i'm not a rice expert.
20:33:43 <oerjan> wait i have this vague memory that we used something exotic once (basmati?) and it was much better.
20:34:39 <lambdabot> shachaf says: roconnor_: The Monomorschism?
20:34:44 <lambdabot> shachaf says: Henning should call all his modules M
20:35:00 <lambdabot> shachaf says: your comment on irc was enlightening. i never thought i would learn so much about this subject! very interesting. it's the sort of comment we see on my favorite irc channel, #enlargeyourmortgage. an excellent read, thanks again!
20:35:47 <lambdabot> shachaf says: i they are so love easy threads
20:35:55 <lambdabot> shachaf says: (\l -> Data.Array.IArray.elems $ runST $ do { arr <- newListArray (0,length l - 1) l :: ST s (STArray s Int Int); (`fix` 0) $ \loop i -> do { v <- readArray arr i; writeArray arr i (v^2); when (i < (length l - 1)) (loop (i+1))}; iarr <- unsafeFreeze arr; return (iarr :: Array Int Int) }) That's the best way to square all the
20:35:55 <lambdabot> elements of a list in Haskell, by far.
20:36:37 <oerjan> shachaf: i saw (very belatedly, i'm > 1 month late on /r/haskell) this discussion of renaming * to Type or something, and i thought "just make it T to annoy thielemann".
20:37:37 <\oren\> I usually use T to mean a string
20:37:50 <\oren\> the other streng besides S
20:38:33 <\oren\> As in, "Let S,T,U be bit strings of lengths L,M,N"
20:38:36 <oerjan> shachaf: what's #enlargeyourmortagelike twh
20:39:41 <\oren\> why isn't mortgage spelled morkage?
20:40:03 <shachaf> \oren\: or look at http://ircbrowse.net/nick/shachaf?recent=false hth
20:40:20 <shachaf> except that's only quotes in #haskell, and it includes some bad ones that were thankfully @forgotten
20:40:20 <tswett> Because when pronunciations change, the spellings often stay the same instead of being updated to reflect the new pronunciations.
20:40:41 <oerjan> \oren\: apparently morgage exists but is obsolete
20:40:46 <pikhq> Because it derives from "mort gage"
20:41:21 <tswett> http://etymonline.com/index.php?term=mortgage - also because of Latinobonerists.
20:41:59 <pikhq> That's not Latin boner people, just the Norman conquest.
20:42:16 <pikhq> Pretty typical example of Law French.
20:42:48 <oerjan> but wiktionary said it was spelled morgage in anglo-norman
20:42:53 <lambdabot> KOAK 031953Z 31007KT 10SM FEW012 21/13 A2960 RMK AO2 SLP023 T02110128
20:43:04 <Phantom_Hoover> 'rtg' doesn't seem like a very latin consonant cluster
20:43:24 <lambdabot> CYYZ 032000Z 08014G28KT 15SM -RA FEW045 OVC058 10/03 A3037 RMK CU1NS7 SLP288
20:43:32 <pikhq> oerjan: Looks as though both spellings coexisted.
20:43:54 <\oren\> we got a cold north wind here
20:44:39 <shachaf> \oren\: http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?q=oren
20:45:42 <\oren\> looks like a different oren
20:46:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought your father was called something starting with s
20:46:51 <\oren\> Aha. so this oren is spelled with a ו
20:47:49 <\oren\> I thought ו was o and u in hebrew?
20:48:24 <shachaf> But the letter representing the o sound is a glottal stop.
20:49:33 <\oren\> uhhh... Ok I have no idea how Hebrew works
20:49:46 <shachaf> do you know how korean works?
20:49:50 <shachaf> i think hangul has the same deal
20:50:12 <\oren\> Hangul works the same as english, but the letters are in blocks instead linear
20:50:45 <\oren\> So how does aleph represent o in some words but a in others?
20:51:32 <shachaf> you know japanese or something like that, right?
20:51:56 <shachaf> how does s represent そ in some words but さ in others?
20:52:05 <shachaf> aleph is just another consonant
20:52:07 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, if it helps, words that 'start' with a vowel in english actually start with an implicit glottal stop
20:52:49 <\oren\> Oh, so the vowels aren't marked at all, and aleph represents the fact there is some vowel there but not which one?
20:53:33 <shachaf> they are marked sometimes, but aleph is not the vowel here
20:54:02 <b_jonas> \oren\: see http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-09-10.2318.html where it talks about Hebrew and Arabic
20:55:23 <shachaf> the ו represents a vowel, but the word starts with a glottal stop
20:56:28 <\oren\> I see... Wrods that start with a glottal stop are a new one to me, but theres no reason why that can't happen
20:57:13 <shachaf> They aren't particularly new to you. Every English word that starts with a vowel -- like "aren't" and "every" and "english" and "a" and "and" -- starts with a glottal stop.
20:57:38 <\oren\> What about the e vowel in oren?
20:57:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, I don't think so. not according to that blog entry I just linked to
20:57:55 <shachaf> b_jonas: Unfortunately I don't know much French.
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20:58:17 <\oren\> the start of the oh in uh-oh is different from the start of O in O Canada
20:58:50 <shachaf> They sound the same to me?
20:59:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think the initial glottal stop is universal in english
20:59:38 <shachaf> Sometimes it gets slurred away, of course.
21:00:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: that article specifically explains that some languages, namely Hebrew, Arabic, possibly Dutch, require a pause before all words that start with a vowel, so Hebrew and Arabic treats such words as starting with a glottal stop consonant, which that article suggests to call a ʔalif.
21:01:14 <b_jonas> shachaf: the writing systems for Hebrew and Arabic are abjads, and they write a ʔalif letter at the start of that word, which is why it's natural to analyze those languages that way.
21:01:42 <\oren\> Oh I see, in english I do do it at the start of a sentence, so for e.g. 'eat an apple' there is something in my throat at the start of 'eat' but not the other two words
21:01:45 <b_jonas> (It is not mentioned in that article, but lojban is also like that.)
21:02:39 <shachaf> \oren\: The "proper" pronunciation of that sentence would include the thing that I think of as a glottal stop for each of those words.
21:02:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: however, the article also tells that this isn't the only thing ʔalif is used for, namely long vowels in Hebrew and Arabic are often represented as a fake consonant sign with a vowel mark,
21:02:56 <b_jonas> and ʔalif is used as such a consonant sign for some vowels.
21:03:27 <b_jonas> And also that the arabic writing system is complicated and it won't try to tell all the rules.
21:03:48 <\oren\> in my spelling it's 'Et N apL'
21:04:03 <shachaf> I don't think the things you're saying match up with my intuitive understanding of things.
21:04:24 <shachaf> And you can have aleph in the middle of words as a glottal stop, no problem.
21:04:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: however, most languages, including English, French, (Hungarian, not mentioned in the article) do have lots of common words that actaully start with a vowel, and they're pronounced (usually) without a stop or pause before them,
21:05:04 <b_jonas> so I think there's no point saying that English words that start with a vowel have a glottal stop before them, because nobody pronounces them that way.
21:05:14 <\oren\> there's no stop in english, we slur all our words together and that is perfectly ok
21:05:32 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, it _can_ mean a glottal stop in the middle of a word, because it does work like a real consonant.
21:06:12 <b_jonas> shachaf: but the letter can also represent a long vowel, and this isn't even specific for aleph, because there are a couple of other consonant signs that are sometimes used to mark a long vowel, and sometimes a consonant, in Hebrew and Arabic.
21:06:27 <shachaf> I think people slur glottal stops at the beginnings of words into the previous word about as much in Hebrew and in English.
21:06:45 <shachaf> I would say that "eat", "an", and "apple" all start with the same sound, standing on their own.
21:07:03 <b_jonas> shachaf: does that apply to Arabic too?
21:07:09 <b_jonas> as opposed to Hebrew that is
21:07:17 <\oren\> hmm, well in english it isn't analyzed normally as having a glottal stop at the start
21:07:24 <shachaf> If you say them quickly one after the other, sure, there might be a spot of slurring. But that's a result of how you combine words, not the words in themselves.
21:09:00 <b_jonas> let me re-read the article, maybe it says this only about Dutch (sometimes) and Arabic
21:09:43 <\oren\> for example, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Consonant_examples doesn't include glottal stop as one of the consonantal inventory of english
21:09:45 <shachaf> Speaking a sentence made up of individual words is a complicated process. Just saying each word in the sentence separately sounds very unnatural.
21:10:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, sorry, it doesn't specifically seem to say this about Hebrew, only about Arabic
21:10:26 <shachaf> b_jonas: aleph is *also* used in hebrew as a pseudo-vowel in some cases
21:11:13 <shachaf> \oren\: You must admit that the two 'i's in the IPA for "english" are pronounced very differently.
21:11:14 <b_jonas> in fact, it says very little about Hebrew
21:12:02 <b_jonas> it also doesn't seem to specifically say that aleph is used to write a long vowel in Hebrew
21:13:06 <b_jonas> “il faut préciser que l'arabe utiliser des consonnes pour marquer l'allongement des voyelles : la voyelle longue ‘ī’ est notée ‘{i}y’, la voyelle longue ‘ū’ est notée ‘{u}w’, et la voyelle longue ‘ā’ est notée par un ‘{a}’ suivi d'un ʔalif, justement ; dans tous les cas, j'écris la voyelle entre accolades parce que les voyelles ne sont normalement pas écrites en arabe, donc seule reste visible la consonne d'allongement
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21:13:20 <b_jonas> I think that's more or less true for Hebrew as well, but that article doesn't say
21:13:42 <\oren\> shachaf: sounds like inglish to me, with two of the same i?
21:14:09 <shachaf> I think this is a different mental model of how vowels work.
21:14:36 <shachaf> By the way, glottal stops in the middles of words are also often slurred away in colloquial Hebrew.
21:14:58 <shachaf> This would be much easier in a spoken conversation, because I could hear what you're saying and demonstrate what I mean.
21:15:31 <b_jonas> shachaf: sorry about the confusion
21:16:08 <\oren\> Hmm.. maybe I can demonstrate
21:16:31 <\oren\> does windows still come with wave sound recorder
21:16:37 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't Old English the language that's (also sometimes) analyzed with a glottal stop at the beginning of (most) words starting with a vowel?
21:17:38 <b_jonas> you could try to ask on ##linguistics, but that channel is very rarely on-topic
21:18:06 <shachaf> I've had bad experiences with linguists before.
21:18:24 <b_jonas> or you could try http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/
21:18:55 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: :(
21:19:05 <shachaf> I've experienced half of that...
21:19:31 <augur> shachaf doesnt like me because i dont like him because he was a dick to me. its a funny world we live in
21:20:00 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: there are lots of nice linguists on the internet.
21:20:21 <b_jonas> especially if you count amateurs like David Madore (whose article I linked)
21:20:24 <augur> b_jonas: i dont think Old English has that, but Modern English does
21:20:39 <shachaf> Good time to end the discussion.
21:20:41 -!- shachaf has left.
21:20:46 <augur> glottal stops before vowels at the beginning of words
21:21:09 <augur> there now, you see? shachaf has been doing this for ages :|
21:21:10 <oerjan> http://linguistics.stackexchange.com/questions/2585/rules-for-glottal-stop-insertion-across-languages hth
21:21:19 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: find what out?
21:21:56 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: you read the freaking blog post I linked to, which specifically talks about English?
21:22:00 <\oren\> heres a recording of me reading out some of the previous text formt his channed
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21:22:03 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/demonstrate.wma
21:22:18 <b_jonas> I mean, how else do you find out things these days, other than looking them up on the internet or asking in irc
21:22:41 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, i did make it clear that i don't speak french, right
21:22:46 <augur> oh. well you can try reconstructions of the phonology and stuff
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21:25:16 <shachaf> <augur> shachaf: i delight in knowing that i can grind your gears just by answering your questions.
21:25:22 <shachaf> this is hardly a new thing
21:25:31 <augur> shachaf: i know its not new
21:25:42 <augur> we've been at this for years
21:25:46 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/demonstrate.wma <- heres a recording of what my dialect sounds like in case you missed it
21:26:16 <augur> even tho we've barely interacted in, say, the last 5 years
21:26:40 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its hard to be dicks to one another when we dont interact :)
21:26:47 <zzo38> Is .wma the only format you have? Can't you have FLAC format?
21:26:48 <shachaf> \oren\: I think we've talked about the ch in my name before.
21:27:16 <b_jonas> I wanted to say something about esoteric stuff
21:27:28 <\oren\> zzo38: I'll do the next one as mp3 or something
21:27:47 <\oren\> wma was the default when I saed it
21:28:03 <zzo38> You shouldn't use MP3 either, use FLAC
21:28:32 <zzo38> Yes it is compressed, but it is lossless
21:28:47 <augur> the c stands for compression :)
21:28:52 <augur> Free Lossless Audio Compression
21:29:21 <zzo38> (If you want lossy compression you can use Vorbis, which is still better quality than MP3; but FLAC is better quality because it is lossless.)
21:29:43 <\oren\> anyway AFAIK I don't use glottal stops
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21:29:53 <augur> if you want audio on the internet, you're best with MP3 of course, since its widely implemented, compared to FLAC and vorbis
21:31:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you care about esoteric C++?
21:32:51 -!- function has changed nick to trout.
21:33:33 <zzo38> I don't care much about C++, but you can do it anyways if you want to
21:34:05 <b_jonas> oh... for some reason I thought you did at least non-esoteric C++
21:34:23 <shachaf> As I said, there's a lot that changes when you speak a sentence compared to the individual words.
21:35:58 <augur> \oren\: are you a native speaker of English? if so, which dialect?
21:36:56 <\oren\> Canadian English, I guess the toronto regional accent
21:37:17 <augur> then you definitely have glottal stops :)
21:37:42 <augur> in every word that begins with a vowel!
21:37:51 <augur> and only when the vowel is initial
21:38:14 <augur> but glottal stops are hard for native speakers to hear, because its phonologically not there
21:38:29 <augur> it only gets inserted in certain conditions
21:39:12 <augur> its fairly well known about native english speakers that they cant hear their glottal stops, tho. singing teachers struggle with this all the time
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21:42:33 <augur> \oren\: i can hear lots of glottal stops in your audio file :)
21:43:16 <augur> i know, its hard to hear them. i bet you cant hear the two different p's either!
21:44:35 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: you mean you cant hear the aspiration? me neither usually. its very hard to hear for me
21:44:43 <augur> i have to really focus
21:45:09 <shachaf> Linguistics is 1% aspiration and 99% perspiration.
21:45:40 <\oren\> Ok i've recorded anothewr one, this time a passage from a calculus textbook
21:46:48 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/calculus.wma
21:47:24 <\oren\> onus points if you can figure out which calculus textbook this is
21:47:28 <augur> \oren\: glottal stops everywhere!
21:48:33 <\oren\> agh where I don't hear any
21:48:39 <augur> i know you dont :) its ok
21:48:47 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, oh also while we're here, i noticed a while back that i say 'tl' (as in bottle or glottal) with a lateral plosive or something
21:48:53 <augur> of course the only true test would be to get some nice, clean, high-quality audio and put it through a spectrogram and show you
21:48:56 <b_jonas> what did Bubbles do with his lips?
21:49:11 <Phantom_Hoover> but i couldn't find any reference to this being 'a thing' and it's nagged at me since
21:50:01 <augur> someone on Language Log once mentioned a situation where one of their chinese students was in utter disbelief that she was deleting certain consonants or whatever in her speech
21:50:33 <augur> so they put it through a spectrogram and looked and even upon seeing the spectro, the student insisted that it had been tampered with because she could HEAR the damn things!
21:51:27 <augur> except there really was nothing to hear, its just that the processing is so tight that it creates the subjective experience of things that arent in the signal
21:52:13 <\oren\> I see. interesting that its possible to say a sound without hearing it and hear a sound without saying it
21:52:24 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: lateral releases are pretty common, yeah
21:53:19 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its still a t or d, but the release isnt alveolar its lateral, so the standard notation is a superscript l
21:53:25 <boily> hellaugur! long time no see!
21:53:51 <augur> [bɑtˡl] or [bɑdˡl]
21:53:58 <augur> boily: hi hello do i know you?
21:54:32 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: lol
21:54:33 <augur> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral_release_(phonetics) :P
21:55:16 <augur> it could be but i would bet against it
21:55:23 <augur> but who knows, theres lots of english dialects :)
21:55:46 <augur> some dialects say "buses" homophonously with bosses using ɔ so who knows!
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21:58:13 <boily> augur: you always are there in the list. I think I saw you talk on this channel, but it goes so far back that it may be many years ago.
21:59:46 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: sounds like it could indeed be ɔ!
22:00:19 <augur> its somewhere between ɑ and ɔ and ɒ
22:00:22 <augur> its in that region
22:00:27 <\oren\> shit I'm not a linguist
22:00:29 <augur> im guessing tho that you're british
22:00:48 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: im guessing that you voted #Yes
22:01:15 <augur> boily: well, im here now :) hello!
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22:03:04 <augur> canadian english and dakotan-alaska english do that too
22:03:20 <augur> also Phantom_Hoover you dont sound glaswegian
22:03:39 <augur> so my bet would be edinburgh, just on population?
22:04:44 <Phantom_Hoover> but i also tried doing RP for a few years then decided i didn't like it so it sounds weird to people from edinburgh
22:04:44 <\oren\> how the hell, I can't even
22:05:06 <augur> how is im a linguist and also i watch a LOT of british TV
22:05:31 <augur> especially the panel quiz comedy shows, so i get lots of exposure to different dialects
22:05:45 <augur> i cant pin down many of the british dialects, but i can get some major ones
22:05:52 <boily> `le/rn augur/augur took no cakes, but he's a linguist.
22:06:10 <Phantom_Hoover> is there anyone from edinburgh on the panel show circuit
22:06:40 <augur> i dont know. edinburgh isnt nearly as lulzy as glasgow so probably not
22:06:54 <augur> yeah, it was a probabilistic deduction
22:07:54 <augur> man google gives _nothing_ for comedians from edinburgh
22:08:57 <augur> "Edinburgh 2015: the best new comedians heading to the Fringe" includes Stewart Francis who's fucking canadian lmfao
22:09:21 <augur> i guess that sums up Edinburgh: their best new comedians are from canada lolol
22:09:28 <Phantom_Hoover> well yeah, the fringe is one of the biggest comedy festivals in the world
22:10:22 <augur> searching for comedians from glasgow, on the other hand, has plenty of results. lol
22:10:41 <augur> thats what you get for pronouncing it edinbruh
22:11:43 <augur> or maybe edinbuhruh
22:11:48 <augur> but definitely no g
22:11:59 <\oren\> so the e, the g, and the h are all dilent
22:12:38 <augur> the e isnt silent!
22:12:56 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its the only one people say on a regular basis tho :P
22:13:38 <Phantom_Hoover> probably. but basically the only actual curveball is that the gh is pronounced 'uh'
22:13:57 <\oren\> https://clyp.it/gs14rz5x
22:15:00 <\oren\> this is what happen when I only ever see a word written
22:16:04 <augur> bruh, like douches saying bro but with uh instead
22:16:50 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxM7ENmEh1U
22:17:14 <augur> e-d-i-n-b-ore-u-haytch :)
22:18:49 <augur> ahhh irish https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI1UaHt1zRU
22:19:22 <\oren\> fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
22:19:36 <Phantom_Hoover> but the vowels are there solely to fuck with your head
22:20:07 <\oren\> the whole british isles are trolling me
22:20:14 <augur> there was a LL post from ages ago about irish spelling :)
22:20:32 <Phantom_Hoover> \oren\, oh man you'll love this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mOd3lwluQIw
22:20:49 <Phantom_Hoover> (and this is mostly english names, which are fairly tame)
22:21:18 <augur> is featherstonehough in there somewhere?
22:23:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean they're not crazy like siobhan, they're just heavily elided
22:30:33 <HackEgo> U+0020 SPACE \ UTF-8: 20 UTF-16BE: 0020 Decimal:   \ \ Category: Zs (Separator, Space) \ Bidi: WS (Whitespace) \ \ U+025B LATIN SMALL LETTER OPEN E \ UTF-8: c9 9b UTF-16BE: 025b Decimal: ɛ \ ɛ (Ɛ) \ Uppercase: U+0190 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0303 COMBINING TILDE \ UTF-8: cc 83 UTF-16BE:
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22:33:40 <\oren\> also I hope the ow in glasgow is the same as in cow
22:34:47 <\oren\> then why the fuck is there a w
22:35:57 <augur> \oren\: wait till you learn that some scottish people pronounce "cow" as coo :)
22:36:28 <Phantom_Hoover> and that the vernacular spelling of glasgow is 'glesgae'
22:37:11 <augur> vernacular, or scots?
22:37:14 <\oren\> fucking british people ruining the english language for everyone
22:37:58 <boily> \oren\: abandon English, go French :D
22:38:22 <augur> scots is a different language sister to english, whereas vernacular is just everyday scottish english
22:39:48 <\oren\> je ne parl fransais pa untilthey unfuck their spelling
22:40:07 <augur> there's certainly a gradient, of course, but scots is a real distinct language
22:40:16 <augur> recognition of its status as a language is actually kind of important
22:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> my understanding of the history is that scots developed in parallel and along a continuum with english
22:40:57 <boily> \oren\: maim, mangle and mutilate. that's the first step to writing proper French and speaking it.
22:41:10 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: yeah, there's no clear line, you must understand
22:41:24 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: its a dialect continuum. the same is true of romance languages
22:41:37 <Phantom_Hoover> and the recognition of status is massively political, you need only look at ulster scots to see that
22:41:52 <augur> we talk about French and Spanish and Italian and so on, but its a continuum, there's no line between the them
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22:41:54 <\oren\> luckily the japanese unfucked their spelling in the 1950's
22:41:56 <augur> same for Dutch and German
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22:42:27 <augur> languages are like species
22:42:41 <augur> you get all sorts of fun things in species
22:42:43 <Phantom_Hoover> which is why i think it's silly to draw a line between 'everyday scottish english' and 'scots'
22:42:49 <augur> ring species are quite interesting
22:43:02 <augur> well when i say everyday scottish english i mean english, but with a scottish accent
22:43:12 <augur> not the scottish with "ken" and stuff
22:44:16 <Phantom_Hoover> yeah but this started over the term 'vernacular', which i always understood to refer to the latter
22:44:53 <augur> it might, in this context, i dont know. i mean, vernacular isnt a name, tho its sometimes incorporated into names
22:45:35 <Phantom_Hoover> (incidentally if you want to just hear glaswegians saying shit, i recommend burnistoun)
22:45:41 <\oren\> boily: see they used to spell 「きょう」 as 「けふ」
22:46:22 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: burnistoun?
22:47:05 <boily> \oren\: indeed. more compact, none of those pesky small kana.
22:47:10 <augur> for all my glaswegian needs, i just watch kevin bridges and frankie boyle :)
22:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> burnistoun is glaswegians portraying their natural habitat
22:49:28 <augur> i saw an episode of one of those trash shows with a guy bringing people out to sit in chairs and hes well known as a dick
22:49:44 <augur> and they had some scottish people on, some glaswegians speaking very thick glaswegian english
22:49:47 <augur> omg it was nuts :D
22:50:51 <augur> jeremy kyle, i think is that guy?
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22:53:24 <\oren\> I'm guessing english spelling reform won't catch on until the dialects start to become unintelligible
22:53:40 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le_uNGdpa4c
23:00:48 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, yeah, burnistoun is like... halfway to that, throughout
23:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> bridges and boyle are pitching to the entire uk, burnistoun was some regional bbc scotland thing so they didn't give a fuck who could understand it
23:03:09 <augur> when they play in glasgow tho they hit the accent really hard
23:03:15 <zzo38> Tell the queen to tell the prime minister to cancel the EU.
23:03:26 <augur> its fun to compare when boyle is on Mock vs when he's playing a room in glasgow
23:03:38 <augur> especially like during that small little indyref show he did
23:04:29 <augur> i love their comedy omg
23:04:36 <augur> boyle and bridges are some of the best comedians ever
23:04:40 <\oren\> cancel the EU? like a show
23:04:56 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: omg i know lmfao
23:05:19 <augur> that was a truly amazing moment
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23:06:47 <augur> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkpyd2lr4dI
23:07:00 <augur> in case anyone is wondering WTF Phantom_Hoover and i are talking about with horses :)
23:07:45 <Phantom_Hoover> though you need to understand the format: the story might be a lie, and he wins if he gets the other team to call it wrong
23:10:04 <augur> man i havent watched wilty in a while
23:10:10 <augur> i should watch the new series
23:10:52 <augur> thank god for youtube, otherwise i'd never get to see all these great shows
23:13:05 <b_jonas> |I mean, which ones have you already watched?
23:14:04 <augur> b_jonas: Nevermind The Buzzcocks, Mock the Week, Would I Lie to You, and 8 out of 10 Cats
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23:46:43 <boily> \oren\: nice porthello. mind if I steal it?
23:52:25 <augur> also Phantom_Hoover, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cENbkHS3mnY
00:04:52 <Phantom_Hoover> i'm more interested in data about what people in scotland actually speak at this stage
00:12:32 <Phantom_Hoover> from just that lecture i don't know how contemporary his speech actually is
00:27:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stackstack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44590&oldid=43036 * LegionMammal978 * (+0)
00:31:34 <boily> “MPlayer crashed. This shouldn't happen.”
00:33:04 <boily> fungot: what's a 23-skidoo?
00:33:05 <fungot> boily: when they are revealed you don't have to crowd on computers without drscheme or the scheme community
00:33:39 <boily> fungot: SRFI 23: Error reporting mechanism?
00:33:39 <fungot> boily: oleg's treap implementation is an inadequate reification and the invocation process are part of a syntax-rules macro, which is not valid punctuation. it is fnord)
00:34:08 <boily> fungot: oh, oleg's involved. I suspected type hackery right off the bat.
00:34:08 <fungot> boily: thanks. aagh, postscript!" and even if they pay i won't get any judging done :(.
00:34:27 <boily> fungot: postscript has a type system?
00:37:29 <shachaf> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/23_skidoo_(phrase)
00:38:40 <Sgeo> shachaf, do you have your skidoo license?
00:39:06 <shachaf> Do I need one in order to 23 skidoo?
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00:42:03 <Sgeo> shachaf, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdxucpPq6Lc around 5:33, but watching the whole thing is more interesting, the skidoo license bit is a throwaway joek
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01:24:41 <\oren\> like portmanto but with hello
01:24:57 <tswett> Are you sure it shouldn't be porthellau?
01:25:18 <tswett> Or perhaps even portmantellau.
01:25:48 <tswett> Natalie Portman-Thellau.
01:34:09 <doesthiswork> sgeo: http://existentialcomics.com/comic/1 is quite funny
01:34:39 <Sgeo> I think I've seen it before
01:40:53 <doesthiswork> the animation feels like someone having an imaginary argument
01:42:38 <doesthiswork> where someone sets up a straw man and demolishes it
01:44:39 <boily> porte-mantelleault.
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01:58:38 <\oren\> the wikipedia list of joyo kanji says 呪 means "charm" but I'm pretty sure it means "curse"
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02:03:08 <\oren\> looks like nelson agrees with me
02:06:10 <\oren\> 呪文 incantation 呪術 sorcery
02:06:22 <coppro> jisho says spell; curse
02:07:04 <coppro> but 呪文 can mean charm as well
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02:08:36 <boily> cheloppro! you survived! did you make outrageous hands?
02:08:47 <\oren\> well it isn't the most common meaning
02:10:37 <tswett> I'm trying to think of Magic cards that would just break the game by confusing the rules.
02:10:46 <\oren\> btw "nelson" is the author of "The Japanese-English Character Dictionary"
02:10:47 <coppro> boily: no, best was a haneman. but I was reffing, not playing
02:10:49 <tswett> This one seems to be pretty good:
02:10:56 <boily> \oren\: could you add 露 twh
02:11:10 <coppro> including casual play, there was one yakuman on saturday and five (!) on sunday, including two kokushi by the same person (!?!?!?!?!)
02:11:29 <tswett> "Target word on target face-up card becomes target other word on that card."
02:12:17 <tswett> See that sorcery on the stack which happens to contain the word "land" in its text box? Well, that sorcery is now a land.
02:13:14 <\oren\> do lands even go on the stack?
02:13:16 <boily> \oren\: also, please add 漫 twah
02:13:38 <\oren\> boily: I'll put them on the list
02:13:47 <tswett> No, normally a land cannot be on the stack.
02:14:38 <boily> \oren\: do you have a large kanji backlog?
02:14:39 <\oren\> Also, when I used to play in middle school the stack was literally a stack
02:15:10 <tswett> The rules don't say what happens when a land resolves. They say what happens when an instant spell, sorcery spell, or ability resolves, as well as what happens when a permanent spell resolves.
02:15:45 <\oren\> I'm about to realase another revisio though
02:16:54 <tswett> Now, under the current rules, whenever something resolves, it must leave the stack somehow, and if it's a card, it goes to the graveyard if it doesn't go somewhere else for some reason.
02:17:25 <tswett> So I think we could reasonably conclude that if a land on the stack were to resolve, it would just go directly to the graveyard.
02:17:29 * boily plans to use \oren\'s font for strategic sections of the PDF
02:17:57 <boily> there should be more pictures in the PDF. the fizziecoin is nice, but it's a little bit lonely imeo.
02:18:40 <coppro> boily: the best was the baiman that got ruined by atamahane though
02:18:51 <tswett> But wait, that's not right.
02:19:01 <tswett> The rules state: "A spell is a card on the stack."
02:19:12 <tswett> So if a land is on the stack, that land is a spell.
02:19:29 <tswett> So is it a permanent spell or not?
02:19:53 <tswett> On the one hand, the rules give a listing of the types that a permanent spell can be, and "land" isn't one of those.
02:20:00 <coppro> tswett: lands are not allowed on the stack
02:20:21 <coppro> the rules do not specify what happens if a land is on the stack for the simple reason that it is not possible
02:20:22 <tswett> coppro: is there a state-based action that happens when a land is on the stack?
02:21:40 <tswett> On the other hand, this land spell would be a spell that's a permanent card. So I think I'd rule that actually, a land on the stack is a permanent spell.
02:21:56 <boily> time for some horizontality. 'night all!
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02:23:03 <coppro> tswett: it's like how there's no rule about an instant or sorcery on the battlefield
02:23:40 <tswett> Well, the rules say that if a permanent loses all of its permanent types, it remains on the battlefield as a permanent.
02:24:16 <tswett> The rules also say what happens if you're supposed to turn a permanent face up, but it wouldn't be a permanent if it were face up.
02:24:47 <coppro> both those situations could exist
02:25:17 <coppro> there is no state-based action moving an instant or sorcery on the battlefield to its owner's graveryard, though, because that situation is impossible
02:25:20 <coppro> it's like a land on the stack
02:25:47 <coppro> the CR are designed to handle Magic as the game that actually is played
02:25:55 <coppro> (although there are corner cases where they have issues)
02:26:22 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm updated
02:26:32 <tswett> All right. But let's consider what would happen if we wanted to follow the comprehensive rules as closely as possible, while playing with "hack cards" such as this one.
02:26:38 <tswett> Think like a Nomicker!
02:27:52 <coppro> tswett: then the people inventing such cards should specify what happens
02:27:59 <tswett> My revised opinion is that if a land were to be on the stack and then resolve, it would be put on the battlefield.
02:28:04 <tswett> coppro: I guess I'd better start specifying, then.
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02:41:24 <tswett> You could make an odd sort of Magic nomic with that hack card.
02:45:43 <tswett> First, add in the following card: "Greater Magical Hack. 6UU. Sorcery. Name a card, and choose two individual words on that card. The first word permanently becomes the second word on all instances of that card."
02:47:00 <tswett> Second, each player has an emblem that says the following: "You cannot win or lose. If you would draw a card, but every player's library is empty, then each player shuffles his or her graveyard into his or her library, then you draw a card."
02:47:32 <shachaf> Are Magic: The Gathering cards ever ambiguous in a way that's resolved by rulings?
02:47:44 <tswett> Yeah, I'm pretty sure.
02:47:49 <tswett> Anyone got an example?
02:48:09 <coppro> the previous rules manager was of the opinion that all situations should have a resolution derived directly from the rules, but this is no longer in the philosophy of the rules design
02:48:15 <shachaf> Do they later change the rules to resolve the ambiguity?
02:48:17 <coppro> so in certain edge cases the ruling stands alone
02:48:45 <coppro> there is no rule that enables Oblivion Ring and similar cards to actually work
02:48:58 <coppro> they operate only by fiat
02:52:56 <tswett> I guess whoever does the first Greater Magical Hack could trivially make the game unwinnable by naming Greater Magical Hack and then changing, say, "becomes" to "admires".
02:53:28 <tswett> Wait, no, because "admires" isn't on that card.
02:54:51 <tswett> You could just modify it so it doesn't make any sense: "The first word permanently and the second word on all instances of that card."
02:54:55 <coppro> change "first" to "second"
02:56:19 <tswett> Come to think of it, I don't think this version of GMH is open-ended.
02:57:41 <tswett> You can use GMH to alter other cards in such a way that they too become hacking cards. I guess.
02:58:40 <zzo38> That "Greater Magical Hack" is not mathematically correct, I think
02:59:26 <zzo38> Also, I would think a land on the stack would go into play if it resolves; however, the rules do not explicitly say
03:00:46 <tswett> "As Swirl the Mists enters the battlefield, choose a color word. All instances of color words in the text of spells and permanents are changed to the chosen color word."
03:01:05 <tswett> You could use GMH to turn "choose a color word" into "choose a text word".
03:01:20 <tswett> Presumably pretty much all words count as "text words".
03:02:23 <zzo38> No, it means nothing.
03:02:44 <Sgeo> Colorful pictures are text, what a language
03:02:59 <zzo38> There is no "text words" meaning anything; the answer is not yes and no!
03:02:59 <Sgeo> I wonder if MtG symbols will ever make it into Unicode
03:03:38 <zzo38> Probably not, but that's OK you don't have to use Unicode, or even if you do you can use the private use area.
03:04:03 <zzo38> I would want METAFONT programs to make the MtG symbols
03:04:15 <tswett> I think most MtG symbols already have Unicode characters you could use for them.
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03:05:16 <zzo38> If you want to make substitute, then yes probably you can.
03:06:03 <tswett> The white mana symbol is U+2600 BLACK SUN WITH RAYS, the blue mana symbol is U+1F4A7 DROPLET...
03:08:02 <tswett> I don't see a Unicode character that's just a skull, but there's a skull and crossbones. There are at least two tree symbols, but I don't know if either one is appropriate.
03:09:06 <shachaf> At one point I found substitutes for each MTG symbol.
03:09:17 <shachaf> At least, ones that rendered well in Google Hangouts.
03:15:17 <tswett> That emblem I came up with gave me a stupid idea.
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03:22:19 <tswett> Variant: Nobody can win and nobody can lose except via the following mechanism. Once 30 spells named Runeclaw Bear controlled by a player have resolved, that player wins.
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03:24:24 <tswett> Actually, make that Omega Myr instead of Runeclaw Bear.
03:33:46 <Sgeo> Google didn't index the logs with "transconic" yet
03:36:02 <zzo38> I have once had the idea of the card it is a creature card but when it comes into play it becomes an instant in addition to its other types. It was also given phasing, which in the rules current at the time that was made would cause it to remain phased out forever but in the next version it can phase in normally.
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03:58:39 <zzo38> Let's see other kind of Magic: the Gathering card to make up
03:59:30 <zzo38> Banding ;; {3}: ~ comes into play with a +1/+1 counter on it. Use this ability only during your upkeep and only if ~ is in your graveyard with exactly 1 card above it.
04:00:06 <shachaf> The graveyard shouldn't be an ordered zone.
04:00:09 <shachaf> That's scow to keep track of.
04:01:53 <zzo38> I like it to be, though. (Some other cards already do anyways, and I have also made some other cards that do)
04:08:49 <tswett> In otherwords, that would be "Put ~ from your graveyard onto the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter on it"?
04:16:32 <zzo38> Panglacial Wurm can be cast while searching your library, which mean you can activate mana abilities during that time; I want to see what kind of stuff can therefore be done with this.
04:20:51 <\oren\> shachaf: how it it hard to keep track of, if you have physical cards?
04:21:11 <shachaf> It means you can't reorder them.
04:21:24 <\oren\> why would you want to?
04:21:34 <shachaf> You often look through the graveyard and so on.
04:22:04 <shachaf> Some cards can be used from the graveyard and most can't. So you might want to move those to the top.
04:22:38 <zzo38> You should make all card with effect in the graveyard (unless the effect works only if it is on top) to be placed in the pile to stick out a bit so that you can find them. It is important if there is a triggered ability on one of them, regardless of whether or not the order matters.
04:36:11 <doesthiswork> did you know Patrick Stein invented negative length lists?
04:36:53 <zzo38> Madness ability can have some uses even in the case that you are unable to pay the madness cost.
04:37:03 <zzo38> doesthiswork: No. How does this work?
04:38:16 <doesthiswork> each thing you cons onto the list removes one anti-cons from it
04:39:01 <shachaf> I guess you would have to cons the same thing that you anti-cons to get that.
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04:49:30 <doesthiswork> that would make it less polymorphic and less useful if it was a free group
04:50:23 <doesthiswork> although maybe could retain the usefulness by having anti-cons return a value that later resolves into the consed value
04:50:57 <shachaf> I guess in their version there's only one anti-cons, rather than being able to anti-cons anything onto the list?
04:55:50 <doesthiswork> because instead of being able to dissolve any value consed onto the list, a matching anti-cons would only be able to dissolve a single value.
04:59:03 <shachaf> It seems that anti-cons should obviously be symmetric with cons.
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05:22:01 <zzo38> I think there are cases in Magic: the Gathering where a mana ability will end up not producing any mana, and which can still be used during a mana step or if a spell with split-second is on the stack.
05:22:55 <shachaf> I don't like the way "mana ability" is defined.
05:25:49 <zzo38> It is a bit vague, which is why I wanted a mathematical definition of the game as a literate computer program.
05:26:47 <shachaf> Is Reflecting Pool's ability a mana ability if you control no other lands?
05:27:04 <shachaf> I think the answer was yes, because it "could" produce mana in some sense. But I don't like that sense much.
05:28:45 <shachaf> Wait, I'm mixing up two different objections I have now, I think.
05:28:51 <zzo38> Yes, rule 605.2 means that, it seems, or at least is supposed to
05:31:14 <zzo38> Still it might be useful for a computer code to support properties such as :activated-mana-ability and :triggered-mana-ability, or to use macros to implement it (or both).
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06:01:53 <zzo38> Is there a "Dead Reckoning Magic: the Puzzling"? Unlike chess, Magic: the Gathering has incomplete information (past, present, and future), so may be more difficult to define. But, other kind of retro puzzles can be possible to do
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06:07:54 <shachaf> zzo38: I saw an unusual Chess: The Puzzling the other day.
06:07:57 <shachaf> http://hebdenbridgechessclub.blogspot.com/2011/02/hardest-chess-problem-in-world.html
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06:10:23 <zzo38> I have seen that one; it is based on old rules. Knowing how the old rules differ from the current rules, I can easily figure it out.
06:12:38 <shachaf> Do you know any good Haskell: The Puzzlings?
06:12:53 <zzo38> I don't know how to play "Haskell: The Puzzling"
06:13:15 <zzo38> But also one idea would be a Magic: the Puzzling where the solution is almost completely different in one version of the rules than with a different version (preferably the immediately previous version, if possible)
06:13:53 <shachaf> I don't know how to play Magic: The Puzzling either.
06:14:03 <shachaf> I think you need a book for that, and I don't have the book.
06:16:35 <zzo38> You do not necessarily need a book; you can also find some on computer.
06:20:13 <zzo38> Are there positions in Magic: the Gathering for which it is impossible to decide whether or not they are legal?
06:22:32 <myname> what is a "position"? and isn't the only way to be impossible to decide for it to need infinitely long to get there?
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06:24:01 <pikhq> zzo38: I suspect not. To my knowledge the set of game states in Magic is countable, as well as the set of legal actions from any given game state.
06:24:14 <pikhq> (and, additionally, the set of *initial* game states is countable)
06:24:40 <shachaf> Presumably there are "garden of eden" positions?
06:25:41 <pikhq> Ah, right, the set of game actions from a given game state need be not just countable, but demonstrably knowable.
06:26:02 <pikhq> Which I *think* is the case, but is... not something I'd just boldly assert.
06:26:23 <shachaf> I'm not sure why actions are directly relevant here. The question is whether a position is legal in the first place.
06:26:30 <zzo38> I don't know if there is something really strange that causes it not to be knowable.
06:26:40 <shachaf> pikhq: A certain individual is quite sauzzled right now.
06:26:54 <shachaf> I'm getting a lot of messages.
06:26:56 <pikhq> A position is legal if you reached it via a legal action from another legal position.
06:27:06 <shachaf> Oh, is that what it means?
06:27:50 <pikhq> Near as I can tell -- I don't recall game states *themselves* having any formal legality in Magic, but the actions themselves do.
06:28:02 <pikhq> i.e. the rules govern the state transitions, not really the state.
06:29:02 <quintopia> mtg is pretty popular. i'm still astounded.
06:29:18 <shachaf> Should I play the new set?
06:29:33 <shachaf> There may be a jam brewing.
06:32:08 <myname> doesn't each turing complete system has its own halting problem?
06:32:14 <zzo38> Is it possible to construct a position that you can win if and only if the number of counters added to some particular object is a prime number?
06:32:28 <quintopia> myname: you mean even if you add halting oracles?
06:32:33 <pikhq> Hmm. I'm not sure.
06:33:02 <pikhq> zzo38: I assume you mean "without creating a new card for exactly that purpose" of course.
06:33:15 <quintopia> zzo38: you mean if and only if it is any prime number?
06:33:16 <pikhq> (it's otherwise an uninteresting question. :))
06:33:26 <myname> quintopia: that too, but if mtg is turing complete, shouldn't it have a halting problem.and therefore an undecidavle state?
06:34:03 <zzo38> Yes, if any prime number
06:34:14 <myname> so there is such a state
06:34:25 <pikhq> myname: Only in terms of whether or not the execution of that state halts.
06:34:31 <zzo38> And I mean using existing non-Un cards and standard rules that are at least as recent as the most recent card used
06:34:50 <quintopia> mtg is tc because someone has devised a utm for it. one could construct a game state such that that utm is running a tm which it is impossible to decide whether it halts
06:34:51 <pikhq> The legality of said state is a fairly different question than whether or not said state halts.
06:35:50 <pikhq> (legality is a question of how the state was reached, not what can be reached from the state)
06:36:37 <myname> how so? assume you get a state that decides wether it halts or not, how do you proove it's legal?
06:37:03 <coppro> there is no such state
06:37:27 <quintopia> my guess would be "yes", on account of the halting problem when one runs the game in reverse. (assuming that mtg is also tc in reverse.)
06:37:51 <pikhq> myname: Whether or not the state can be reached from some other legal state is what you need to prove. I'm not sure if this is actually possible for all arbitrary states.
06:38:21 <pikhq> But it is certainly a very different question than whether or not a state halts.
06:38:51 <myname> couldn't you declare the state you are innas halting?
06:39:21 <pikhq> myname: Then the question is "does there exist a TM that halts", not "does this TM halt".
06:40:03 <myname> no. assume a state that decides wether or not you can reach this exact state
06:41:13 <quintopia> pikhq: let's suppose that one can construct an NTM based on running the rules of mtg in reverse. like if a card says "play this card in blah situation" instead, you can take it into your hand in that situation. if this is tc, then the legality question has an undecidable state.
06:41:15 <pikhq> Okay, let's go with "does there exist an input tape such that this TM halts", which... is a rephrasing of the halting problem.
06:42:11 <pikhq> Hum, yes, there must exist some state wherein it is not decidable if it is reachable.
06:42:14 <newsham> the original was "does this TM halt for all inputs", no?
06:42:43 <pikhq> "For some input" might actually be decidable? I doubt it though
06:43:02 <pikhq> Ah, no, it's proven that the more specific statement is definitely not decidable.
06:43:09 <myname> which is a superset of "does this tm.halts for a given input"
06:43:14 <newsham> lots of trivial tings are decidable.. just the nontrivial stuff is all undecidable :)
06:44:07 <pikhq> For instance, it's entirely decidable to determine if a given C program in a given C environment halts.
06:44:17 <pikhq> Not very practical, but definitely decidable.
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06:46:10 <coppro> pikhq: let M be "given M', decide if M' halts on some input." Define N to be "Given N', let N'' be 'Run each possible input on N' in parallel and halt if any of them do' and then run M on N''". Then N decides the HP.
06:46:20 <coppro> newsham: yes, bounded memory
06:46:38 <pikhq> Yep. C defines a system with a large but very definitely bounded state.
06:46:44 <shachaf> Depends on whether you allow certain file I/O.
06:46:57 <pikhq> It doesn't strictly define what those bounds may be, but does define that those bounds exist.
06:47:19 <pikhq> shachaf: You can only really get past it with sockets.
06:47:30 <shachaf> You can do relative seeks in files.
06:47:32 <pikhq> Without sockets, well, the filesystem is *also* bounded.
06:47:46 <shachaf> I don't think the C spec defines anything about that.
06:47:54 <coppro> newsham: no, it's far stronger than a FSM
06:47:54 <shachaf> The file API can go to all sorts of things.
06:48:02 <coppro> shachaf: finite filename length, finite file length
06:48:11 <shachaf> coppro: Finite file length?
06:48:26 <newsham> coppro: your entire system can be encoded into a large FSM
06:48:42 <coppro> newsham: oh, misread as DFA, sorry
06:48:53 <pikhq> However, ISO C does still require bounded file length: fgetpos and fsetpos are ISO C.
06:49:07 <newsham> DFA is just as powerful as an non-dterministic FSM
06:49:17 <pikhq> Which means any given file position must fit within memory.
06:49:23 <pikhq> And is thus bounded.
06:49:40 <newsham> pikhq: what is fgetpos on stdin?
06:49:41 <coppro> likewise for file names, they must fit into memory
06:50:36 <pikhq> Well okay, there's three unbounded things in C: stdin, stdout, and stderr.
06:50:44 <shachaf> At least POSIX allows it to fail because it doesn't fit in an fpos_t?
06:50:56 <newsham> at any rate, you're not going to compute halting property of a real C program on a real machine
06:51:02 <pikhq> shachaf: But POSIX requires it to fit in an off_t. :)
06:51:09 <newsham> and there are probably some ultrafinitists that would put up fists over that assertion ;-)
06:51:11 <pikhq> If it doesn't fit in an off_t *the open fails*.
06:51:36 <shachaf> I think I looked it up once and POSIX C allows it to be too big.
06:51:43 <\oren\> all programs will eventually halt when the computer running them is sucked into a black hole
06:52:08 <shachaf> I don't remember the details.
06:52:14 <shachaf> Maybe http://pubs.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/009695399/functions/ftell.html
06:52:18 <pikhq> newsham: Well, sure you can. Run two parallel simulations. Run one of them at twice the speed of the other. If the two states ever equal each other, it doesn't halt. If it halts, it halts.
06:53:03 <newsham> pikhq: that is not a terminating program that answers the halting problem :)
06:53:20 <pikhq> newsham: As the number of states is bounded, it will always terminate.
06:53:24 <coppro> pikhq: that could fail if the repeatition has even period
06:53:31 <\oren\> printf("it will halt");
06:53:47 <\oren\> that solves it because all real programs halt
06:54:01 <coppro> pikhq: count the size of the state space, run that many steps
06:54:07 <coppro> if you're not done, return "doesn't halt"
06:54:19 <\oren\> coppro: that also works
06:54:36 <pikhq> coppro: That'll work, too.
06:56:29 <\oren\> hmm there should be a variant of BF where all programs begin with a header giving the number of cells and the bounds of each cell
06:57:14 <\oren\> thus making it subturing
06:57:56 <\oren\> is there a programming language that guarantees that all programs halt?
06:58:10 <pikhq> Add in something to specify the IO rules and you'll have come up with a practical means of accepting all BF programs with only trivial modifications. :)
06:59:54 <\oren\> #!bf -c100 -v0-255 -lf
07:00:26 <\oren\> something like that could work
07:01:10 <newsham> oren: agda? (do you count productive coinduction?)
07:02:38 <HackEgo> adheidcoin gotomcoin gnatiocoin cellcoin icacoin etamcoin mammarkcoin m-codcoin midcoin barcoin smitafncoin sing-boomcoin pugoddbcoin bubandcoin diiccoin quylcoin codecoin brimcoin sivecoin hersetcoin
07:02:43 <newsham> are there any high perf bf jits that will recover high level integer operations?
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07:39:05 <HackEgo> tre-calcoin procoin vortecoin andlcoin l00ftcoin nouslycoin alagehottermotiacoin dutchytacoin eplexarchencoin fuperpilancoin udccoin rwancoin footicotenditediuscoin bjoriecoin hipcoin crabllcoin mahocoin uncoptercoin whenemcoin buicoin
07:39:52 <\oren\> mahocoin! mahomahomahomaho
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14:40:10 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
14:42:28 <tswett> `run echo ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20}
14:42:51 <tswett> `run words --eng-1M --esolangs 20
14:42:53 <HackEgo> memboja cli sot pain ofc rna iincalake recunt reved enever2 enta magist anazranm tam bam squ toelter revertrit trantum pine
14:43:21 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #wa
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14:46:50 <boily> `coins --french 20
14:46:51 <HackEgo> boucatcoin rgildeecoin chécoin iiecoin delhscoin ruitcoin grimity'scoin martiquecoin argétèrcoin mésotencoin boranifiecoin préciamcoin attelumescoin caiendcoin ajustetencoin greecoin regemcoin ocatissairecoin rangiquicoin nidcoin
14:47:15 <HackEgo> 1mprelainskingcoin axocoin sagringpuzzlecoin outcoin vestciendcoin pathcoin wheredcoin pucedcoin keecoin phabismcoin binarycoin noilogcoin ialcoin entcoin trudewacoin jentroncoin dzimmicoin purcoin bakcurrownicensilaincoin cuddlequecoin
14:47:38 <boily> bakcurrownicensilaincoin!
14:49:34 <boily> le cuddle qui cointe.
14:52:54 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*coin*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
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15:29:23 <tswett> Given five distinct points on the plane, is there always exactly one conic section which passes through all of them?
15:30:21 <tswett> Hmm, the answer is no if they're collinear.
15:30:33 <tswett> All right, five distinct noncollinear points.
15:30:49 <int-e> . o O ( Coincidence is a contraction of coin-incidence, referring to the event of a coin hitting a flat surface with random result. )
15:34:12 <ais523> tswett: a line is also a conic section
15:34:24 <ais523> you cut the cone along a tangent to one of the sloping sides
15:34:30 <ais523> (it's not normally thought of as one, but it is)
15:34:39 <tswett> Yeah, but there are multiple conic sections passing through five collinear points.
15:35:18 <tswett> A pair of lines is a conic section.
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15:56:04 <ais523> presumably all the points have to be distinct, too?
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15:57:04 <ais523> actually, I think you can find an ellipse and parabola that intersect in five points
15:57:24 <ais523> that aren't coanything (although would have a line of symmetry)
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16:08:04 <b_jonas> For five points in the (real or complex Euclidean) plane, no two coinciding and no four collinear, there's exactly one conic section incident on all five; if also no three of the points are collinear, then that conic section is not degenerate (not two lines, but a hyperbola or parabola or ellipse, counting a circle as an ellipse).
16:09:17 <ais523> aha, ofc if you have four colinear (and the fifth not on the line)
16:09:40 <ais523> you could take an arbitrary line through the fifth
16:10:03 <b_jonas> and note that any line intersects a non-degenerate conic in at most two points.
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16:12:16 <b_jonas> The situation is much more difficult if you're looking for conics incident on four points and touching a line, in which case in the generic case (and I won't tell what that means now) there can be exactly zero or exactly two conics matching them, but I don't know a book or article that explicitly claims this;
16:13:06 <b_jonas> so I should try to ask a three-parter question on MathOverflow asking for a reference about (a) one line and four points, general case, (b) one line and four points, all cases, (c) two lines and three points, in which case I don't even know what's the answer I expect.
16:13:21 <b_jonas> I might have to make it two separate questions, I'll have to think it over.
16:13:45 <b_jonas> However, the Hajós book does explain the five point in a plane case completely.
16:16:58 <HackEgo> [U+9732 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9732] [U+6F2B CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-6F2B]
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16:24:37 <\oren\> I have expressed my annoyance at the Unicode Foundation's method of naming chinese characters before
16:26:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: you shouldn't care about the _name_ of the character, because that's not the important part. some names are bad, and about three even have obvious typos that can't be changed now.
16:27:44 <HackEgo> U+9732 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-9732 \ UTF-8: e9 9c b2 UTF-16BE: 9732 Decimal: 露 \ 露 (露) \ Uppercase: U+9732 \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
16:28:10 <\oren\> RRgh. why does the word "dew" appear nowhere here?!
16:28:19 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, when China and Taiwan can be involved, then the naming could be a political issue.
16:28:30 <\oren\> that's what the damn character means
16:28:54 <b_jonas> \oren\: then you look that up in a dictionary. online or paper, whatever.
16:29:50 <b_jonas> what's the unicode encoding for the fixed-width space used after the en-dash at the start of a line when it indicates a dialog line, typically in languages other than English?
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16:30:53 <\oren\> yeah but they had no problem naming ㊧
16:31:04 <HackEgo> [U+32A7 CIRCLED IDEOGRAPH LEFT]
16:31:05 <HackEgo> U+32A7 CIRCLED IDEOGRAPH LEFT \ UTF-8: e3 8a a7 UTF-16BE: 32a7 Decimal: ㊧ \ ㊧ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: <circle> 5DE6
16:31:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: or BELL or all the other crazy dingbats and smiley faces
16:32:03 <\oren\> so why isnt 左 CJK IDEOGRAPH LEFT!?!?!?
16:33:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: because then the next Chinese communist leader who happens to have that hanzi in their wife's name or whatever will complain that her wife isn't left and that this is a personal insult and that the unicode consortium must immediately pay him a zillion dollars or else he will take out his vengeance with atomic missiles
16:35:19 <b_jonas> the names aren't important
16:35:28 <b_jonas> not important enough to get insulted over, at least
16:37:03 <b_jonas> no seriously, what's the unicode encoding of a fixed with space \hbox{ } ? surely there is such a character, I just don't know which one
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16:39:28 <\oren\> hmm I can't find any character like that
16:39:50 <ais523> b_jonas: it's non-breaking space, it's in latin-1
16:39:56 <ais523> I might even be able to type it
16:40:00 <b_jonas> ais523: no. non-breaking space isn't fixed with
16:40:07 <ais523> it's the same width as a normal space
16:40:20 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly, but it also stretches and shrinks like a normal space
16:40:29 <b_jonas> non-breaking space is what ~ types in plain TeX
16:40:39 <b_jonas> what I want is \hbox{ } , a space that doesn't shrink or stretch
16:40:43 <ais523> I'm not sure if it makes sense for such a thing to be in Unicode
16:40:46 <b_jonas> you can call it \hbox{\ } too, doesn't matter
16:40:53 <ais523> because I'm not sure Unicode has specific behaviour for justified text
16:41:09 <\oren\> maybe the en quad or the em quad?
16:41:13 <b_jonas> ais523: why not? just because it is there doesn't mean everyone has to use it. it'd just be a character you may use to represent that behaviour if you want.
16:41:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, those are not the right width
16:41:43 <b_jonas> \oren\: this one is exactly the width of a normal space in the font
16:42:05 <b_jonas> the quads are also fixed with, but often larger
16:42:24 <ais523> whereas things like bigskip are proportional, right?
16:42:44 <\oren\> there's also 3 per em 4 per em and 6 per em spaces
16:42:48 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know what bigskip is.
16:42:58 <ais523> b_jonas: it's a vertical spacing directive
16:43:14 <ais523> I'm not sure of the exact semantics
16:43:33 <\oren\> of course in my font these all have visible glyphs
16:44:04 <\oren\> because oren is an asshole to typesetters
16:47:27 <b_jonas> ais523: note for example that (the plain TeX) \, (thin math space) and \quad doesn't shrink or stretch, \ has the size and shrinks or stretches exactly like a normal space that's not after punctuation, \> is just like the math space around an infix operator and can shrink to almost nothing, and \; is like the space around an equation sign and is not much wider but doesn't shrink at all.
16:47:50 <b_jonas> (ok, not quite shrinks to nothing, \> actually shrinks to half its normal size)
16:51:04 <\oren\> there are 10 different spaces on the previous line
16:51:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44591&oldid=44360 * 73.51.84.54 * (-101) /* Keywords */ rm duplicate PRODUKT
16:51:52 <\oren\> yeah there is that too
16:52:12 <b_jonas> I think there's a unicode property somewher
16:52:28 <b_jonas> I guess I should look among spaces marked by that property
16:52:29 <\oren\> if you use my font you can see and recognise them all
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17:29:47 <\oren\> I've uploaded a new otf. ⴀⴁⴂⴃⴄⴅⴆⴇⴈⴉⴊⴋⴌⴍⴎⴏⴐⴑⴒⴓⴔⴕⴖⴗⴘⴙⴚⴛⴜⴝⴞⴟⴠⴡⴢfffiflffifflſtst〄〆〇〈〉《》【】〒〓〔〕〖〗〘〙〚〛￠￡￢￣￤￥￦因団固園圧坂堂場塩士声売変夏夕外多夜夢好並享亭他仮仰仲露漫
17:33:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: what did I do wrong? it doesn't show up again
17:33:54 <\oren\> I think AWS is caching the .css again
17:34:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think it's that otf conversion thing again, because I don't even see the old font
17:34:12 <b_jonas> I see only some fallback font
17:34:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: the image version also seems to be very old
17:34:55 <\oren\> can you look at the javascript console for any css errors
17:35:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: even if it caches, when I shift-reload, the browser is sending those http header thingies that tell the cache to refresh it.
17:35:23 <b_jonas> or at least it's supposed to
17:35:56 <b_jonas> \oren\: it says "Failed to load resource: the server responded with a status of 403 (Forbidden)"
17:36:26 <b_jonas> \oren\: and it says neolettersK.otf gives the 403
17:37:14 * \oren\ chmod +r /var/www/html/*
17:37:22 <\oren\> there now it should work
17:37:47 <b_jonas> oh! can I load your secret passwords file too then?
17:38:11 <b_jonas> the image version is still wrong
17:38:20 <\oren\> nah I don't keep passwords in the www directory
17:38:43 <b_jonas> \oren\: the first two lines show up wrong though, probably because the browser is making the lines bigger because of the underlines
17:38:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: could you perhaps change the CSS to remove the underlines from the links?
17:39:05 <b_jonas> you don't want underlines to this font anyway
17:40:14 <b_jonas> I think it's :link, :visited { what you said above }
17:41:14 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/selector.html#link-pseudo-classes
17:41:31 <b_jonas> and I don't think it's underline:none either
17:41:40 <b_jonas> it's text-decoration: none
17:42:55 <b_jonas> \oren\: :link, :visited { text-decoration: none } /* I hope */
17:43:07 <b_jonas> um, with a semicolon after none for good measure
17:43:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: hmm, it still doesn't look good
17:43:48 <b_jonas> yes, definitely doesn't look good
17:44:40 <\oren\> i updated the image so you can see how it looks on my compy
17:44:48 <b_jonas> \oren\: anyway, now you have 〇 twice in the sample
17:44:57 <b_jonas> in the CJK punctuation and in the hanzi group
17:45:38 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think at this point it's probably a browser stupidity, but removing the underline is probably a good idea anyway if you want to leave that text in your font
17:46:28 <b_jonas> I see you've added more kanji/hanzi
17:47:41 <b_jonas> hmm, there seems to be something wrong though
17:47:48 <b_jonas> there's a character that's not in your font, but in the sample
17:48:21 <b_jonas> or at least that's how it shows up in my browser
17:48:34 <b_jonas> can you check on that? it's in the last line of hanzi in the samples
17:50:37 <\oren\> Oh. I put the glyph on the wrong charater
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18:06:50 <boily> you added the characters!
18:06:56 <boily> that's what I was checking ^^
18:09:17 <boily> next, could you please add, at your leisure, 羅針饂飩 and 檎?
18:09:30 <boily> (but take your time. these are becoming silly.)
18:10:14 <b_jonas> boily: um, how are you chosing these particular characters?
18:11:15 <boily> strokeful characters :D
18:11:46 <b_jonas> so you are just choosing characters that are hard to draw?
18:12:11 <boily> mainly kanji versions of common words that are usually written in kana.
18:12:29 <boily> (and yes, perverse admiration for high stroke counts.)
18:12:53 <b_jonas> shouldn't the font contain kanji that are actually commonl?
18:13:26 <b_jonas> \oren\: did you add any of the mirrored or vertical alternate glyphs for the variable characters?
18:15:37 <\oren\> b_jonas: At some point I'll figure out how to do alternate glyphs, either that or just make a script that produces a rotated version the font.
18:16:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: um, just rotating isn't enough, you may have to shift when you rotate or mirror, and you as a font designer have to decide the shift amount that looks good
18:16:39 <b_jonas> you might even want to change more pixels when you rotate
18:17:58 <boily> ♪ ro ro, rotate your font ♪
18:21:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44592&oldid=44591 * 73.51.84.54 * (+34) /* Keywords */ added <nowiki> tags around pipe characters in comment of loop keyword, to prevent them being interpreted as part of the wikitable and not displaying part of the text.
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18:33:00 <oerjan> orevening i'm not even going to try those accents
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19:06:27 <tswett> Why does Unicode have spaces of different widths?
19:06:40 <b_jonas> tswett: which ones in particular?
19:07:07 <b_jonas> it has them because they're useful
19:07:34 <b_jonas> like, I can write three-digit-grouped numbers with thin spaces like 3 000 000
19:07:58 <tswett> Oh, how about the three-per-em space. Why does it have that one?
19:08:09 <b_jonas> dunno, someone probably uses that for something
19:08:13 <b_jonas> I don't know about each of them
19:08:51 <b_jonas> I know the thin space and the quad (en space) and the qquad (em space) and the figure space is useful
19:09:15 <b_jonas> and I'd like the fixed-normal-width non-breaking space
19:09:37 <b_jonas> but I don't know if there's such a character
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19:29:08 <oerjan> goddammit hosts, learn to focus
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19:40:52 <HackEgo> Thanks, portmanteau. Thortmanteau.
19:44:20 <fizzie`> Achievement unlocked: rode the Tramlink: https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAOXVEeDV1cXRTUXM
19:44:46 <fizzie`> It was more trainy than the trams I'm used to.
19:44:57 <fizzie`> Didn't even run on normal streets.
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20:05:05 <izabera> `` paste "$(type -p thanks)"
20:05:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/thanks
20:05:54 <fungot> >2,[>,]+15[>+6>+7>+3>+2<4-]>-6.>-.-7.+13.-3.+8.>-.>+2.<5[<]>[.>]>3+2.>.<3.<2[<]>[[-<2+>+>]+<-97[-4[-4[-6[-6[-4[>-<[-]]]]]]]>[[>]>2-11.<3[<]<.>3[.>]>3.>5][-]>]<3[[<]>2[.>]>5.>2]
20:06:08 <fizzie> Time for a random accuracy spot-check.
20:06:12 <fungot> Thanks, portmanteau. Thortmanteau.
20:06:57 <fizzie> boily: No fair, corner cases.
20:07:04 <fizzie> izabera: Shows the source code of a fungot ^command, if it's not a built-in.
20:07:04 <fungot> fizzie: maybe a good idea. i never knew it happened some 40 seconds ago.
20:09:44 <fungot> Thanks, hanks. Thanks.
20:10:05 <fungot> Thanks, thanks. Thanks.
20:10:12 <fizzie> fungot: Stop repeating yoursellf.
20:10:13 <fungot> fizzie: they are sorted in a list
20:12:37 <fungot> Thanks, fungot. Thungot.
20:13:47 <fungot> Thanks, ABCDEF. TBCDEF.
20:19:58 <fizzie> I think case-insensitivity is also one differentiating feature, I didn't bother adding it.
20:22:04 <fungot> Thanks, aaaaa. Thaaaaa.
20:22:52 <boily> fungot: my right hand
20:22:53 <fungot> boily: question not directed directly to forcer, anyone can make it in
20:23:02 <boily> guys! anybody can pat fungot!
20:23:02 <fungot> boily: i'll modify the core to split up .po files at some point today. all three of them
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20:25:36 <fizzie> fungot: You've been internationalized?
20:25:36 <fungot> fizzie: oh, sorry, i don't
20:26:09 <fungot> gamemanj: wouldn't want to buy something. it wasn't supposed to be optimized into a nop.
20:26:25 <gamemanj> Ok, what universe does that bot live in
20:26:53 <gamemanj> aanyway, internationalizing fungot sounds like a great way to go mad
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20:27:07 <fungot> gamemanj: ( ...although that first one more like non-real-time pacman) evaluate the lambda expressions are hard to reason about a program running between irc and the unix 10 convention, and mid and res due to it checking k just before
20:31:07 <boily> gamemanj: why? fungot's code is very simple and easy to follow.
20:31:08 <fungot> boily: watch out for hot surfaces, not implicit ones. fnord are quite nice. then my old transmeta laptop might be an i/ o bound to the resulting brainfuck code.
20:31:31 <gamemanj> simple and easy to follow befunge? Is that possible?
20:31:38 <boily> fungot: you know I like your hot surfaces.
20:31:38 <fungot> boily: is anyone here familiar with chef? xd a 2d fnord games somewhat easily
20:32:12 <boily> gamemanj: you start from the begining, until you reach the end, and then you stop.
20:39:02 <oerjan> <gamemanj> aanyway, internationalizing fungot sounds like a great way to go mad <-- i say we get b_jonas to make a corpus out of those hungarian poems he mentioned a while ago.
20:39:02 <fungot> oerjan: by me. he felt that he is a sleep specialist after all. :) :(. i hate e-mailing strangers out of the core macro system make it much easier
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20:56:20 <int-e> i hate e-mailing strangers out of the core macro system as well
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20:58:03 <oerjan> well if you're trapped in the core macro system it may be your only hope
20:58:35 <boily> macros unnerve me.
20:59:15 <boily> b_jonas: I guess you were happily designated to be part of the Fungot Translation Vanguard. sok szerencsét!
20:59:39 <fizzie> I think fungot's code is mostly relatively clean, except for the babbling part.
20:59:39 <fungot> fizzie: brainfuck coding time for compress.bf: 15 minutes. i dare you. unfortunately i usually work for utility companies
20:59:57 <fizzie> That one looks more traditionally befungey.
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21:00:36 <fizzie> I'm a bit unnerved at the thought of fungot working for utility companies.
21:00:36 <fungot> fizzie: why is perl 6?) was looking for a way to increment each one at each subsequent iteration, i realised that was a fatal flaw
21:03:33 <fizzie> TIL: my work arrival time correlates only very weakly (ρ=0.106) with the time I leave.
21:09:50 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
21:09:57 <fungot> shachaf: too much clean and safe places for us, " oh, i get it.
21:12:19 <boily> shachaf: Markov Chain Lightning delivered to your home!
21:12:35 <fungot> shachaf: the more open-minded, you know that no one leaves. point blank range. normally, i would work, you can i get you anything about xykon. we just sort and therefore, the six other pages at " nodwick" gift.
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21:20:30 <int-e> fungot's irc style is scary
21:20:30 <fungot> int-e: your brother and, apparently, there, about that... the cleric skipped to the part about the oath" story is just that was the point, can anyone hear, oh firstborn child of mine, all mine and make my will known.
21:20:50 <fungot> int-e: my name is " roy's archon" thing, sir, and i know that, i'm so good that the dwarf, " stabby" is.
21:21:35 <fizzie> fungot: Can that sword alone stop?
21:21:35 <fungot> fizzie: and, as it is with my people, i would get the message would actually put us in mortal danger is infinitesimally low.
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21:45:58 <boily> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/path4161.png
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22:12:21 <boily> helloppavelloiellon[1]!
22:13:19 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to create a suite of esochesses that people on this channel can play if they want
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22:18:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44593&oldid=44450 * Zzo38 * (+1993)
22:19:17 <zzo38> This computer has Python 2.7.3; will that one work?
22:20:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Probably. I'm currently using Anaconda 3, but I'll try not to use any non-backwards-compatible features if I can remember
22:21:44 <hppavilion[1]> (OK, to be fair, Anaconda 3 is only for Python 3.4 currently, so I can't use the @ operator anyway)
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22:31:43 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: i get to go. welcome go puberty. ( does something with a stick, and you, the gods, my poor useless eyes! helping!
22:33:55 <boily> what's the @ operator?
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22:36:56 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Kinda-sorta, https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/README.md
22:36:56 <fungot> fizzie: for that, my family would like my mode of transit returned, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, lieutenant, do i not, l
22:37:12 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: It might be missing something, though; I think there was a bit of troubleshooting involved, the last time someone tried to run it.
22:42:04 <fizzie> boily: It's nothing in particular in Python (except for the decorator syntax), but from 3.5 onwards you can overload it as an infix binary operator.
22:43:23 <fizzie> Yes. The motivation chapter says it's specifically meant so that you can have * and @ for elementwise and matrix multiplications.
22:43:56 <fizzie> That's why the magic method names for overloading @ (and @=) are __matmul__, __rmatmul__, __imatmul__.
22:46:46 <fizzie> I think they're courting all those numerical programming folks.
22:47:29 <Phantom_Hoover> oh right, it is actually defined as matrix multiplication
22:48:21 <izabera> fizzie: can you add the fi legature in zem.fi ?
22:48:22 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought you meant it was undefined in the stdlib but they'd made it possible to define it
22:49:19 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: That's what I mean.
22:49:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: "But isn't it weird to add an operator with no stdlib uses?" "It's certainly unusual --" http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0465/
22:50:18 <fizzie> They do define "recommended semantics" for anyone using it.
22:54:42 <fizzie> "The swirly shape is reminiscent of the simultaneous sweeps over rows and columns that define matrix multiplication"
22:54:45 <FireFly> izabera: ligature characters in domain names is probably a bad idea
22:55:04 <izabera> that text is in the banner
22:56:15 <FireFly> fizzie: that is very colourful
22:57:08 <fizzie> Re domain names, at least Chrome goes to zem.fi if I type in zem.fi -- but I'm not sure what I was supposed to add and where.
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23:11:11 <FireFly> Perhaps to have the "zem.fi" heading use a hardcoded ligature character
23:12:37 <fizzie> I don't really want to do *that*. I should update the related CSS stylings, though; it's using the nonstandard -webkit-font-feature-settings while apparently there's nowadays a simpler "font-variant-ligatures" too.
23:13:26 <fizzie> Although I couldn't get the 'fi' ligature to show up even after twiddling those; but it's supposed to exist in the font, it's the same font I used for the image.
23:19:43 <fizzie> It renders right for me in the word "fit" at http://www.georgduffner.at/ebgaramond/design.html -- not sure what's up with that.
23:32:08 <fizzie> Must be something related to pulling it from Google's WebFonts thingie; the other site hosts it locally.
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00:21:35 <zzo38> Did you define a ligature table in the font?
00:21:43 <zzo38> Maybe you have to do it?
00:29:47 <fizzie> It's supposed to contain one already. And the ligatures worked in Gimp with a locally installed copy. Of course I don't know what's in the Google webfont version.
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00:53:12 <doesthiswork> 'tell hppavilion[1] http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/Games/monochess.html
00:54:05 <doesthiswork> oh well, looks like I can't remember which bot is which
00:55:14 <ais523> doesthiswork: you want @
01:00:31 <doesthiswork> @tell hppavilion[1] http://www.wunderland.com/WTS/Andy/Games/monochess.html
01:01:08 <doesthiswork> It would be fun to have an IRC bot that dispatched on tab
01:59:27 <zzo38> My brother had made up a puzzle of Hearthstone game; he has explained to me the rules of game so that I can know how the puzzle is working. As far as I know he has not put it into the computer yet, but it is written on two sheets of paper (he writes very large, unlike I write small)
02:00:37 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of Hearthstone game?
02:00:59 <shachaf> One of the odd things about it is that minion order on the battlefield matters, and minions can't be moved.
02:01:18 <zzo38> I don't really know; I don't play that game, but I know most of the rules of the game
02:03:15 <zzo38> The puzzle is as follows:
02:04:31 <zzo38> You - Priest, 1 HP, 10 Mana, 0 Deck, 2 Fatigue. Hand - The Coin, Flame Lance, Shadow Word: Death, Inner Fire. Play - Gurubashi Berserker [Divine Spirit, 7 Damage], Dalaran Mage [2 Damage], Auchenai Soulpriest [1 Damage], Mana Wyrm [1 Damage], Holy Champion [1 Damage].
02:05:11 <zzo38> Opponent - Mage, 22 HP. Hand - N/A. Play - Sunwalker [0 Damage (due to Divine Shield), 2 Damage], Ysera, Malygos, Ysera, Malygos, Ysera, Malygos.
02:05:37 <zzo38> (The second page has the effect of all relevant cards and hero powers)
02:06:33 <shachaf> I don't remember what most of the cards do.
02:07:27 <zzo38> I can list all of them. Hero Powers: (all 2 Mana, 1/turn) Priest - Heal a character for 2 health. Mage - Deal 1 damage to a character.
02:07:49 <shachaf> It's too many for me to reconstruct it in my head right now.
02:07:57 <shachaf> I'm on a train and getting off soon.
02:09:00 <zzo38> Spells: The Coin - 0 Mana - Gain 1 Mana this turn. Flame Lance - 5 Mana - Deal 8 damage to a minion. Shadow Word: Death - 3 Mana - Destroy a minion with 5 or more attack. Inner Fire - 1 Mana - Set a minion's attack to its current health. Divine Spirit - Double a minion's health.
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02:10:45 <zzo38> Minions: Gurubashi Berserker - 2/7 - Gains 3 attack whenever this minion takes damage. Dalaran Mage - 1/4 - +1 spell damage. Auchenai Soulpriest - 3/5 - Your healing spells and hero power now deal damage instead. Mana Wyrm - 1/3 - +1 attack gained whenever you play a spell. Holy Champion - 3/5 - +2 attack gained whenever a character is healed. Sunwalker - 4/5 - Taunt, Divine Shield. Ysera - Dragon 4/12 - Add a dream card to your hand a
02:11:12 <zzo38> (What a "dream card" is, is irrelevant here. I don't know what it is anyways.)
02:11:57 <shachaf> Your message was cut off. Maybe better to write it up somewhere with an HTTP address?
02:12:25 <shachaf> One of the annoying things about Hearthstone is that the cards aren't specified.
02:12:35 <shachaf> Sometimes you have to reverse-engineer their behavior.
02:13:18 <zzo38> Holy Champion - 3/5 - +2 attack gained whenever a character is healed. Sunwalker - 4/5 - Taunt, Divine Shield. Ysera - Dragon 4/12 - Add a dream card to your hand at the end of your turn. Malygos - Dragon 4/12 - Spell damage +5.
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03:47:42 <zzo38> I made up some compression scheme for DVI files; each page is compressed individually so that it can still work whether the pages are read backward or forward and even if some pages are skipped.
03:51:11 <hppavilion[1]> This looks interesting: http://www.chessvariants.org/piececlopedia.dir/reflecting-bishop.html
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04:26:08 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering making a mathematical OS is Cosmos. Not for usage, just as something to do.
04:40:14 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmos_%28operating_system%29 ?
04:40:27 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CosmicOS ?
04:46:22 <zzo38> Another variant relating to the bishop that I have heard of is "quantum bishops" where instead of going diagonally, it goes in both orthogonal paths to reach its destination; if either path is blocked then it cannot go, but it is OK if the diagonal path is blocked.
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04:58:41 <Sgeo> "expressing inheritence" -- why is that needed for a program meant to be sent to aliens?
04:58:48 <Sgeo> Why do we want to beam Java to space?
04:58:57 <Sgeo> http://cosmicos.github.io/
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05:16:09 <MDude> It's based on Scheme, actually.
05:17:03 <MDude> What I'm wondering is why we'd send a legal iscense agreement to an alien that might have completely alien views on copyright.
05:19:10 <MDude> THere's also https://medium.com/@McCosmos/a-treatise-on-cosmos-the-new-programming-language-905be69eb4af
05:19:27 <MDude> WHich is a language someone might write an OS in?
05:20:36 <zzo38> You can write an operating system in C or in assembly language although others are also possible
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05:46:54 <ais523> wait, there are two operating systems with names based on "cosmos", and neither is called "CosmOS"?
05:47:31 <ais523> MDude: C is most common, or asm for older OSes (and the C-based ones normally have small amounts of asm); some more recent languages are possible to write an OS in, like C++ and Rust
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05:49:02 <MDude> I was just saying that because it was another possible answer to my earleir question, even though hpavilion already answered.
05:50:23 <MDude> Now I'm wondering why hppavilion is specifically making an OS using a specific existing OS.
05:52:08 <pikhq> The main thing you need for a language suitable to write an OS in is an ability to use it without a notable run time environment -- because you're *writing* one. :)
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06:05:32 <hppavilion[1]> MDreeam: I'm not making an OS in another OS, per se. COSMOS is an "OS Toolkit", like legos of OS design
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06:11:48 <zzo38> Only Forth can syntax-highlight Forth, isn't it?
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06:33:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Approximately, yes. As the meaning of a given Forth statement depends on the words in place in the current Forth environment.
06:44:40 <ais523> there are some approximate syntax-highlight rules that will normally work, though, I think?
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07:16:22 <shachaf> Taneb: whoa whoa whoa, a mention of NYHC on haskell-prime@
07:21:00 <Taneb> Hmm, my github picture is quite old
07:21:05 <Taneb> I should take a new one
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07:34:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: I have a corpus of Arany János poems ready, because I used it to bulid a language model already. I have some other similar sized out-of-copyright collections of poems downloaded, but I'd have to process them.
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07:47:22 <b_jonas> However, I don't see why I would want to process anything more unless you teach fungot this corpus: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul.txt
07:47:22 <fungot> b_jonas: i see. you may well have made my saving throw. a whole tribe, you can.
07:47:48 <b_jonas> which is from an old snapshot of http://lolcatbible.com
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08:00:22 <b_jonas> However, it may be more difficult to build a decent language model for Hungarian than for English. There's all the conjugations and declinations going on, so you can't just match entire words.
08:01:27 <b_jonas> You'd probably need to use one of those softwares that already have knowledge about Hungarian grammar to try to parse words and sentences, adn then maybe try to build a model from that.
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09:32:32 <fizzie> b_jonas: Or just use unsupervisedly-learned statistical morphemes and build the model on sub-word units? That's what we do for Finnish.
09:32:55 <fizzie> Although fungot's current babbling code is not going to be able to not put a space between each token.
09:32:55 <fungot> fizzie: you! we wouldn't get to watch my intake.
09:33:07 <fizzie> (That's why it gets starting quotes etc. wrong, actually.)
09:41:49 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots* pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:42:15 <fungot> Selected style: iwcs (Irregular Webcomic scripts)
09:42:20 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: of all, the first one was a complete the binding the crocodile's jaws are tied us up and left us here! we're the last, die moment of triumph of fatherland a bavarian standoff, but with the balrog dead, you probably want the next time. goodbye. well, it is rocket science, i now restart the universe, a better universe! we choose only die fittest people of nigeria!
09:43:31 <b_jonas> I don't really like all these crazy unsupervised training stuff people do these days. I prefer to teach computers the domain-specific knowledge that I already have.
09:44:47 <fizzie> b_jonas: Very retro. The deep learning stuff is all about not teaching them any domain-specific knowledge, under the assumption that we'd be teaching the wrong (or at least suboptimal) things anyway.
09:46:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: it's not really retro. I mean, it's a significant part of my actual dayjob, which is totally not retro, but state of the art and gets obsolate every few years and synergic and all that fancy buzzwords.
09:47:07 <Taneb> ...is there actually a critical funge98 vulnerability
09:47:19 <fizzie> Well, on the speech side, not doing it certainly seems to work better.
09:47:31 <fizzie> Taneb: Not really, and it would be a cfunge vulnerability anyway.
09:48:32 <b_jonas> fizzie: Sure, it depends on the tasks. I have colleagues who do all this crazy automated learning and mattern patching stuff, and some of them even understand how it works and use it well. It's just that it's not what I prefer, and I'm sure it's often a bad idea.
09:51:49 <Taneb> fizzie: what was the issue?
09:52:08 <Taneb> b_jonas: mattern patching?
09:53:17 <b_jonas> Probably some missing array bounds checking or similar I'd guess.
09:59:13 <fizzie> Taneb: Something like what b_jonas says. Some highly unlikely stack-stack operations might possibly under contrived enough conditions lead to arbitrary code execution.
09:59:44 <fizzie> I seem to recall a mention about integer overflow regarding some memory allocations.
10:02:47 <b_jonas> !oeis 1 2 5 12 29 70 169 408 985 2378 5741
10:02:49 <b_jonas> `oeis 1 2 5 12 29 70 169 408 985 2378 5741
10:02:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oeis: not found
10:02:55 <b_jonas> do we have an oeis bot here?
10:12:09 <b_jonas> (yes, it's a famous sequence. you can tell because it has such a low A-number.)
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10:17:36 <Taneb> b_jonas: I believe lambdabot has oeisiness
10:17:49 <lambdabot> Pell numbers: a(0) = 0, a(1) = 1; for n > 1, a(n) = 2*a(n-1) + a(n-2).[0,1,2...
10:20:51 <Taneb> Oooh, I have a lecture on Eodermdrome-like programming languages in just over 3 hours
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11:04:57 <b_jonas> I always think that a lot of smbc-comics strips are similar to xkcd strips, though I'm not sure which one copies of the other. but today is the first time smbc-comics reminds me to a PBF strip: compare http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=3881 with http://pbfcomics.com/262/
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11:05:50 <b_jonas> I mean look at it, the circular design with three hanging feathers, they seem like exactly the same object in the two strips in different drawing styles.
11:07:30 <boily> they are dream catchers. you hang them over your bed to catch dreams, and the jingly bits (feathers, beads, jingly stuff) help the good ones trickle back into your head.
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11:16:59 <boily> b_jonas: seriously.
11:17:22 <boily> (well, that's the intent, and that's what counts, eh?)
11:19:30 <b_jonas> boily: yes, and it works in those two strips
11:21:38 * boily facedesks through his mechanical keyboard and punches a hole into the floor
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12:38:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[0815]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44594&oldid=37670 * 178.8.154.25 * (+35) /* Hello World */
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12:40:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[0815]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44595&oldid=44594 * 178.8.154.25 * (+2) /* Hello World */
12:42:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44596&oldid=44157 * 178.8.154.25 * (+140)
12:43:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44597&oldid=44596 * 178.8.154.25 * (+1)
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13:42:09 <Taneb> "difficult to read because of category theory" -- warning in the lecture slides applied to a textbook
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14:26:01 <FireFly> Darn category theorists... all they do is write hard-to-read textbooks
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14:43:10 <HackEgo> checoin compiarcoin cractcoin arcalcoin cowellcoin obackoutcoin forecoin jehincoin dnrcoin iothetcoin juresolcoin belibecoin fromecoin breludeltopfncoin hevcoin quycoin mouslicoin dokcoin 254coin catucoin
14:43:32 <HackEgo> validcoin datasets:coin --eng-1Mcoin --eng-allcoin --eng-fictioncoin --eng-gbcoin --eng-uscoin --frenchcoin --germancoin --hebrewcoin --russiancoin --spanishcoin --irishcoin --german-medicalcoin --bulgariancoin --catalancoin --swedishcoin --braziliancoin --canadian-english-insanecoin --
14:43:48 <HackEgo> tlocoin (L-T:coin 4)coin rookushkacoin (L-T:coin 1)coin budslhcoin (L-T:coin 4)coin vidalcoin (L-T:coin 0)coin bemoledcoin (L-T:coin -1)coin loqucedcoin (L-T:coin 2)coin vercoin (L-T:coin 1)coin azocoin (L-T:coin 4)coin
14:43:59 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:44:10 <HackEgo> Unknown option: n \ Unknown option: + \ Unknown option: 5
14:44:19 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:44:40 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:44:47 <b_jonas> `words --help |& tail -n+5
14:44:48 <HackEgo> Unknown option: n \ Unknown option: + \ Unknown option: 5
14:45:01 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:45:09 <b_jonas> `words --help 2>&1 | sed 1,5d
14:45:10 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
14:45:24 <b_jonas> `` words --help |& tail -n+5
14:45:25 <HackEgo> -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the target length offset used in the \
14:45:34 <b_jonas> `` words --help |& tail -n+10
14:45:34 <HackEgo> word generation algorithm; use negative integers \ for best results
14:45:40 <b_jonas> `` words --help |& tail -n+15
14:46:14 <HackEgo> cat: bin/coin: No such file or directory
14:46:16 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
14:46:35 <HackEgo> wigthcoin lavoorcoin ignolocoin gincoin adacoin reposiecoin fbrcvcoin derfeighcoin trucccoin casurvacoin einhabacoin dorecoin speriacoin carcoin lavocoin mizzcoin izationcoin foleurcoin eranslycoin entcoin
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14:47:02 <HackEgo> fracanahexamcoin penneationcoin coluedlocaticicoin sioneuburnoteincoin intryedwincouucoin wilheyncoin puratumquecoin coromieredcoin cautonagecoin uownediumfactationcoin
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14:47:07 <HackEgo> angealpebrocicoin gustfulladeauxcoin honsorcvicalumcoin ioxichtinardswortalcoin prinallylenchilledcoin werenglcsorcoin canamiddktopicantericucoin lastitionerabillycoin goretcompraylentcoin gustocqueenvolutedrivercoin
14:47:10 <HackEgo> relrenccoin bosocoin xvhcoin unmecoin wclcoin sichcoin mniftcoin serencoin torcoin prpcoin
14:47:17 <HackEgo> iaucoin gercoin ethcoin mattcoin rpxcoin concoin fricoin knfcoin percoin upportcoin
14:47:52 <b_jonas> penneation-coin, in-tryed-win-couu-coin, wil-hey-n-coin, cautonage-coin
14:48:56 <fizzie> "ethcoin" sounds networky enough.
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15:48:55 <Taneb> I'm booked to see Tony Hoare next month
15:50:45 <int-e> . o O ( so that fulfills a precondition; what's the post-condition of that step? )
15:51:12 <int-e> wrong Hoare though :P
15:51:51 <int-e> Antony... Tony. Meh.
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15:53:54 <oerjan> those are the same name, really
15:55:52 * oerjan remembers someone saying something recently about groups with 2 generators of order 3 being finite, but cannot find again (also i'm pretty sure that's wrong if only the generators are order 3)
15:56:24 <Taneb> Tony Hoare: Pro Skater
15:56:46 <int-e> another early GG update
15:56:49 <oerjan> maybe it was longer ago than i think
15:57:11 <oerjan> int-e: i'm starting to wonder if seffie is not evil or something
15:58:19 <int-e> or perhaps it's just a little sibling rivalry
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17:27:51 <zzo38> Put all cards from your graveyard on top of your library in a random order; you are not allowed to see the order. ;; Delve
17:28:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: wouldn't that say "shuffle" somewhere?
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17:28:48 <zzo38> You could write it with "shuffle", but maybe not because you are not allowed to see the order
17:29:06 <b_jonas> no, I guess it wouldn't be "shuffle"
17:29:19 <b_jonas> because that would be confusable with "shuffle your graveyard to your library" which already exists
17:34:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, wait, were you here when we discussed large finite loops and http://www.mezzacotta.net/magic/goldfish/ with ais a few days ago?
17:34:44 <b_jonas> it was a bit dizzying to me (not in the sense of Dizzy Spell)
17:34:50 <b_jonas> because of the huge numbers
17:35:13 <b_jonas> we also mentioned infinite loops. again.
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18:23:11 <zzo38> I think I was on here and could read what was being written on this channel at this time
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19:17:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: strange. depending on the browser I sometimes still get the problem where the hanzi on the fontdemo page don't line up to a grid.
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20:03:06 <zzo38> I do not consider it to be such a good idea to do line breaking in the middle of parts of a paragraph that are written in the reverse direction from the main direction of the paragraph. Use a block quote if you need such things.
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21:35:57 <oerjan> @let ljoin [x] = x; ljoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs
21:36:41 <oerjan> @check \xs -> ljoin (ljoin xs) == (ljoin (map ljoin xs) :: [Int])
21:37:03 <oerjan> hah i'd forgot that example! time to edit my SO answer...
21:43:23 <oerjan> @let kjoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs
21:43:47 <oerjan> @check \xs -> kjoin (kjoin xs) == (kjoin (map kjoin xs) :: [Int])
21:50:37 <myname> how are they any different?
21:51:18 <myname> @check \xs -> ljoin xs == kjoin xs
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21:57:22 <oerjan> myname: oh those aren't different, i just realized i didn't need the specific [x] case if i'm not caring about bottom.
21:58:32 <oerjan> it is possible i've forgotten what the extra check was, anyway
21:59:01 <oerjan> myname: anyway, this is an alternative Monad instance for finite lists, that has the exact same Applicative.
21:59:04 <myname> hppavilion[1]: windows 8?
22:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> myname: By "EsoGUI" I mean an Esoteric GUI Toolkit
22:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> I think the Geometry Manager should do something like use the intersections of curves to position widgets
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22:03:44 <hppavilion[1]> And the curves' significant points need to be based off of other significant points, the primatives being the midpoints of the edges and the corners
22:05:09 <hppavilion[1]> Well, the primatives will be the corners and a function to locate the midpoint of a line derived from two points
22:08:43 <zzo38> Is it using Xlib or something else?
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22:09:29 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I don't know how I'm going to implement it yet. I'm considering Tkinter canvases, but that'd probably be pretty inefficient
22:12:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing the doc here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1EVsJB5JIBcSDUjAx4kvr_-cP707Qqktg1Frcp-W4xhw/edit?usp=sharing
22:12:48 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone feels like providing their input directly.
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22:19:56 <hppavilion[1]> What would the best type of curve/waveform/whatever be to use for this? I need something powerful, where I can basically declare a widget's location as being at all intersections between two of these forms.
22:20:43 <hppavilion[1]> Fourier series perhaps? Probably not. Bezier curves are my current usage, but that seems a bit stupid, as they're more for graphics
22:21:29 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe use a geometry manager based on a hybrid between Polar Coordinates and the Golden Spiral?
22:25:16 <myname> https://wiki.php.net/rfc/namespaceseparator#rating wat
22:26:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make this the INTERCAL of GUIs, designed to be entirely unlike normal GUI languages
22:31:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Esolang Adjectives]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44598&oldid=44580 * Hppavilion1 * (+534) Added classes
22:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Do you have any widget suggestions? Things entirely different from how you've normally interacted with computers
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22:32:34 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the basic unit of interaction should be dragging
22:32:44 <ais523> dragging letters into a text box in order to create words, and the like
22:33:19 <hppavilion[1]> Click a letter, click a node, click a final destination?
22:35:08 <izabera> that thing on php.net should say criterion, i believe
22:35:24 <oerjan> english has a tendency not to care about that
22:35:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: greek vs. latin
22:35:41 <oerjan> you might consider both correct
22:36:34 <oerjan> i'm used to -on in english but in norwegian kriterium is obligatory. well, or the entirely norwegianized kriterie
22:37:03 <oerjan> hm is the latter actually common...
22:37:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: On second thought, dragging as the basic unit fo interaction isn't quite esoteric enough xD. I mean, phones do that all the time. Dragging and tapping.
22:38:00 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well tapping normally takes precedence to dragging
22:38:08 <ais523> you could add a rule that tapping something always deletes it, for example
22:38:13 <hppavilion[1]> How about mouse /releasing/ is used instead of mouse /pressing/?
22:38:15 <ais523> which would be logical and follow no normal rules
22:38:25 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: actually most dialog boxes in practice use mouse releasing
22:38:28 <ais523> you just haven't noticed
22:38:32 <ais523> open a random dialog box and try it
22:38:41 <ais523> (hyperlinks, OTOH, are normally based on mouse pressing)
22:39:08 <myname> ais523: they do, but only if the mousedown also happened there
22:39:17 <hppavilion[1]> Buttons don't go off until you mouse up, giving you a last-minute opportunity to change your mind
22:39:27 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps mouse movement as the basic unit, without clicking?
22:39:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: look up "dwell click"
22:40:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I think I know what that is. I have noticed that, as a matter of fact, I realize that syaing that is stupid now.
22:40:36 <hppavilion[1]> Toggle-click and mouse movement will be the basic unit
22:40:57 <hppavilion[1]> Click to enable a widget, move your mouse to interact with it, leave to undo
22:41:01 <oerjan> clearly your GUI should be cat-based hth
22:41:53 <hppavilion[1]> So to press a button, you: Enter the button, click the button, move to the "On" area of the button, click again to keep the button on, leave to cause changes to be enacted
22:42:58 <myname> you could also consider forcing the user to use the mouse and the keyboard at the exact same time
22:43:08 <boily> I need a cat. cats are fluffy.
22:43:19 <myname> i.e. no typing without holding a mouse button
22:44:05 <zzo38> You use different mouse button one for click on, one button for click off, one button for menu, two buttons at same time for delete, etc
22:44:45 <myname> forcing the user to type with one hand sounds funny to me
22:44:51 <hppavilion[1]> myname: That would be annoying because on some laptops that's impossible
22:45:09 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i don't think so
22:45:16 <myname> even if it does: so what?
22:45:20 <hppavilion[1]> I know that I can't press too many buttons at one time on my laptop, and mouse click turns off when I press a button (which makes it literally impossible to tower in minecraft)
22:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: The GUI is supposed to be Esoteric, not useless
22:46:01 <myname> it isn't useless if you cannot use it on "some laptops" (whichever that may be)
22:46:20 <zzo38> Maybe, if you left-click then you can type on it (if you left-click on multiple widgets then you can type in all of them at the same time) and if you right-click then it is cancel, might also be one kind of strange way to make them?
22:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> I think that if it won't work for everyone with compatible software, it counts as useless
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22:46:40 <myname> you can always put a mouse on your laptop
22:46:57 <hppavilion[1]> Forcing the user to buy new hardware to use something /also/ makes it useless.
22:47:19 <myname> like anybody would have no mouse at all
22:47:35 <myname> did you know you need a computer to programm in bf?
22:47:45 <myname> you cannot force people to buy computers!
22:48:02 <hppavilion[1]> PROGRAMMING PHILOSOPHY 101: If it won't work for everybody who has the right software, then it's useless for them, and you should treat it as if it were useless for everyone
22:48:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I don't have a mouse, I just use a trackpad.
22:48:24 <hppavilion[1]> My parents are divorced, so a stationary PC isn't an option for me.
22:49:00 <myname> it will render linux as useless
22:49:15 <myname> because there are some laptops that don't work with it
22:49:41 <myname> it will also render windows as useless
22:49:47 <myname> basically every os is useless
22:49:54 <myname> as is every software ever written
22:50:04 <izabera> divorce is #1 cause of laptop sales
22:50:10 <zzo38> Will FreeDOS work if the computer is a real PC though?
22:50:32 <myname> zzo38: doea freedos work on avr?
22:50:56 <zzo38> I don't expect so, unless you have a PC emulator on it
22:51:08 <hppavilion[1]> In python, is there a way to capture keypresses, even when a window is out-of-focus?
22:51:18 <hppavilion[1]> Or would I need to use a keyboard driver for that?
22:52:01 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, my point is: for every software in existence there is hardware that will not fully work with it, therefore every software is useless
22:52:07 <zzo38> A real PC would be x86 anyways
22:52:17 <MDude> <hppavilion[1]> I think that if it won't work for everyone with compatible software, it counts as useless
22:52:24 <MDude> But if it doens't work than it's not compatible?
22:53:02 <zzo38> Do you expect to run TeX on a Nintendo Famicom? I don't expect.
22:53:03 <MDude> I mean unles it's something like a language barrier.
22:53:18 <myname> zzo38: therefore, tex is useless
22:53:25 <myname> as is every irc client
22:53:42 <boily> cf. Pokémon plays Twitch.
22:53:55 <hppavilion[1]> My point is supposed to be this, and I was trying to express it poetically (which I really shouldn't do): Software should be designed to work on all computers that it /should/ work on. You can't leave out people with laptops, you have to at /least/ have an option to change to fix it.
22:53:59 <zzo38> But you can use a different IRC client or whatever for the different computer, I suppose.
22:54:14 <zzo38> If you have a way to connect Famicom to internet then you could probably make a gopher client for it.
22:54:42 <myname> hppavilion[1]: the option is to just buy a mouse for about 5 bucks or so
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22:54:51 <zzo38> And most computers can emulate the Famicom so even if you have a program only for Famicom you may be able to run it on another computer too.
22:55:17 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But if you make users buy other stuff for a software to work that doesn't seem to them like it should be necessary, they're going to get pissed off
22:55:26 <zzo38> (Of course no matter what you do you will not get all software on all computers)
22:55:51 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that is one big issue for software that will probably never be used
22:55:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Can you invent an IRC: The Puzzling?
22:56:12 <MDude> One problem is that computers that can't handle as many button presses were made after software that required multiple button presses.
22:57:11 <MDude> And I'd rather push for better keyboards by making software that uses them.
22:59:17 <MDude> It's your GUI though, so don't let my opinion get in the way of your own priorities.
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23:05:36 <zzo38> I was once working on making Z-machine implementation on Famicom, but I could not quite get it to work, and it uses an unusual mapper that I do not have an implementation of on this computer.
23:16:12 <FreeFull> I don't imagine entering text with a controller is too nice anyway
23:17:57 <zzo38> It is using the keyboard to enter text
23:18:18 <zzo38> The program requires the keyboard.
23:19:17 <FreeFull> zzo38: I wonder how difficult a Dreamcast implementation would be
23:19:43 <zzo38> I don't know much about Dreamcast programming.
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23:33:47 <zzo38> If you can make C program on Dreamcast then it may be possible to port ZORKMID or something like that
23:40:07 <hppavilion[1]> Is the inverse of exponentation roots or logarithms?
23:46:33 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: it's not directly applicable because there is more than one argument. It becomes applicable after fixing either the base (--> logarithms) or the exponent (--> roots).
23:46:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the left inverse and right inverse are different
23:47:01 <ais523> so you need to specify which you mean
23:47:11 <ais523> (is there a name for functions where the two inverses are the same?)
23:47:22 <ais523> (binary functions, that is)
23:47:35 <int-e> ais523: is that weaker than commutativity?
23:48:10 <ais523> let's see… let l be the left inverse and r be the right inverse
23:48:40 <ais523> err, I can't see any way this necessarily implies commutativity
23:49:14 <ais523> ah right, ab = r(a)aba = l(a)aba = ba
23:49:35 <ais523> because if it's not commutative I can't move the inverse from one end to the other
23:50:44 <int-e> we also don't have associativity
23:52:57 <izabera> do you guys know the land of lisp?
23:55:21 <int-e> ais523: we also have clashing notions of "inverse" here; we started out with inverse functions... so if f is the binary function, we'd have g and h such that f(g(a,b),b) = a and f(a,h(a,b)) = b. (f(x,y) = x^y; g(x,y) = x^{1/y}; h(x,y) = log_x y)
23:56:56 <int-e> (that raises the question whether g and h are the same if g(a,b) = h(a,b) or if g(a,b) = h(b,a) for all a and b.)
23:59:31 <int-e> The latter choice makes commutative f work: If g is an inverse and we define h(a,b) = g(b,a) then a = f(g(a,b),b) = f(b,g(a,b)) = f(b,h(b,a)).
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01:07:49 <zzo38> I have implemented a \protected command in TeX which is a bit similar to the \protected command in e-TeX, but it does not quite make the control sequence unexpandable though. I intend to try to figure out if some trick is possible (perhaps involving conditionals) so that it expands into itself, but otherwise can still work
01:09:32 <zzo38> But maybe it is impossible and you have to stay with the current way
01:16:41 <zzo38> But even during expansion you can define an undefined control sequence to mean \relax so maybe that can be used. (But probably not)
01:53:15 <tswett> Is sin(a*pi) always an algebraic number when a is a rational number?
02:03:12 <izabera> http://divisbyzero.com/2010/10/28/trigonometric-functions-and-rational-multiples-of-pi/
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02:52:20 <zzo38> My \protected macro makes a macro that expands into something like \begingroup\everymath={}\everyhbox={}\mathcode255=32768\setbox0=\hbox\bgroup$^^ff{xyzzy$$}
02:53:13 <zzo38> (I know it is strange!)
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02:55:49 <zzo38> Do you know how to improve it?
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03:17:47 <MDude> Sounds more like it'd be the other kind of esoteric.
03:18:43 <MDude> An idea I have for a silly math-based chat system might interest you.
03:19:22 <MDude> An equation based chat where every user has a number instead of a name.
03:19:45 <MDude> And people can only sen messages in the from of mathematical statements that equal their user number.
03:20:20 <MDude> Messages being displayed as equations.
03:21:11 <MDude> For now I leave implementation to fungot.
03:21:11 <fungot> MDude: is the balrog following in the footsteps of another very special date. please, put on the packages he sends home, against the wishes of an old enemy, and smote the deepest, darkest secrets of atlantis.
03:21:58 <MDude> I think fungot wants me to do it myself.
03:21:58 <fungot> MDude: hail, hobbit merchant, practised with bow, can i do to help.
03:26:59 <MDude> It's probably a while before I get to it, actually.
03:33:05 * pikhq wishes it were more practical to obtain the event legendaries
03:33:28 <pikhq> I caught all of the ones it's possible to, but dammit, I'm not Japanese. How am I supposed to get Jirachi?
03:39:41 <MDude> I dunno if that's a bad idea.
03:40:08 <MDude> Filesystems and processes are already organized as a tree.
03:41:07 <MDude> And invoking functions from one process to another sounds more efficient and meggase system-like than using text streams for everything.
03:42:15 <MDude> Running processes could be considered isntances of the executable file they run from, which can be considered the class.
03:43:50 <MDude> In fact I'm pretty sure the oeprating system in the programming OS making book I stopped reading after a while is made in an object-oriented language.
03:44:45 <MDude> http://www.nand2tetris.org/course.php
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04:05:20 <MDude> An interesting idea.
04:05:33 <zzo38> Mathematical objects.
04:05:35 <hppavilion[1]> Tiny cubicle (for a very small OS)? Bathroom? Kitchen? HENGE?
04:06:09 <MDude> I've been wanting to make an operating system made for other settings, though I think some might be a bit more practical.
04:06:33 <MDude> Like family-oriented OS, with networking features made to reflect family structute rather than corporate structure.
04:06:42 <MDude> Let me brush up on what hanges are.
04:07:02 <MDude> You mean the neolithic things?
04:07:37 <zzo38> Have any of you solved any of my Magic: the Puzzling?
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04:57:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well. Runes, Henges, etc. I'm off to make DruidzOS
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05:41:03 <zzo38> Is there a program to render a Magic: the Puzzling game as a PNG or DVI or something?
05:43:31 <hppavilion[1]> TeX? if so, then any TeX builder/compiler/whatever should work; Converting TeX to DVI is pretty much the basic TeXy thing
05:46:40 <zzo38> No it is just a ordinary text file
05:47:40 <zzo38> (Whatever program to render would also need to get the card texts, since I haven't included those; preferably those which are current at the time of the specified rule date)
05:57:27 <zzo38> Did you look at any of these puzzles?
05:59:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Is there a historical Oracle text database?
05:59:40 <myname> http://i.imgur.com/Whr9Shz.png lol
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06:02:18 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know, but there is Yawgatog which has all of the changelogs
06:02:37 <zzo38> (As well as the changelogs for the rules, too)
06:02:55 <shachaf> Are those publicly available somewhere?
06:03:50 <zzo38> Yes. http://www.yawgatog.com/resources/
06:05:00 <shachaf> Ah, I was thinking of Datatog.
06:07:56 <zzo38> See if you can figure out any of these puzzles: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.2 http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.3 hopefully I can make up some more later; if you make some up I would like those one too please!
06:08:17 <zzo38> I would want to have them in a book!
06:09:04 <shachaf> Are there copyright issues with publishing a book of Magic: the Puzzlings?
06:09:33 <zzo38> Yes probably it is; I would want Wizards of the Coast to do it if they can.
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06:29:00 <shachaf> zzo38: puzzle 2 should say "he or she"
06:29:09 <shachaf> That's how Magic: the Puzzlings should be phrased.
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06:30:24 <zzo38> I don't think so. Rosewater even mentions the name of the opponent; in my puzzles I have not, but sometimes include the gender because English is a stupid language.
06:31:01 <shachaf> I think it's general Wizards of the Coast policy when referring to an unknown person.
06:31:37 <shachaf> At least where Magic: the Gathering is concerned.
06:31:48 <zzo38> Yes, when they print the card it would do so, that is correct.
06:32:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: I agree with zzo38. the cards say "he or she" because they don't want other people to suggest that Wizards wants only male or only female players to play the games. but the description of a particular game can use just "he" or just "she"
06:34:06 <shachaf> zzo38 also sometimes uses "he" in proposed card text, which is what I was thinking of.
06:35:01 <shachaf> I agree on this aspect of English, anyway.
06:35:03 <zzo38> Yes, or rarely "she"; but clearly they would be printed differently (I also tend to omit reminder text too, even if it is reminder text they would probably print)
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06:36:30 <shachaf> Well, reminder text is different. It's not part of the rules.
06:36:48 <shachaf> But a card that says "target player discards his hand" can only be used on male players.
06:37:07 <shachaf> (I suppose that people who are neither "he" nor "she" are immune to many Magic: the Gathering effects.)
06:37:10 <zzo38> If you are playing Un-cards then perhaps yes. But that is not what I am doing here
06:37:33 <b_jonas> as for the reminder texts, my biggest grief about that is that they printed Spreading Seas without a reminder text.
06:37:33 <zzo38> Therefore, people who are neither "he" nor "she" are not immune (unless they are not playing the game, of course)
06:38:16 <shachaf> b_jonas: The reminder text should say that it loses other land types and so on?
06:38:59 <shachaf> That's a scow rule anyway.
06:39:08 <zzo38> My problem with reminder texts is that Oracle texts include them as searchable text. They should be a separate search field when you want to search Oracle texts rather than printed texts.
06:39:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: losing land types isn't the tricky part. the tricky part is that it also loses abilities that were printed on the card (such as if it's a non-basic land with a fancy mana ability; but does not lose abilities it gets in later layers)
06:39:37 <zzo38> I agree that some of the rules are klugy.
06:39:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: losing land types is normal, that's how type setting abilities work (with one exception)
06:40:01 <izabera> why do all fantasy games have black lotuses?
06:43:14 <shachaf> We should have a Magic: the Gathering bot in here.
06:43:52 <shachaf> The exception is "artifact creature"?
06:44:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: and I don't think players who are neither he or she are immune. "he or she" in a rules text always refers to a player who's mentioned previously in text, so that rule I can't find now might apply, that rule which says an effect that says “that [property]” to refer to an object previously mentioned by the text still refers to an object even if it no longer has that characteristic or property mentioned.
06:52:47 <b_jonas> maybe I was, I'm confusing it with something else or something
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06:55:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44599&oldid=44527 * 82.116.252.147 * (+766)
06:56:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44600&oldid=44599 * 82.116.252.147 * (+0)
06:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44601&oldid=44600 * 82.116.252.147 * (+4)
06:57:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44602&oldid=44601 * 82.116.252.147 * (-2)
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07:15:24 <zzo38> Has Shahrazad ever been used in Magic: the Puzzling before?
07:16:01 <shachaf> Magic: the Puzzling is the name of a book, right?
07:16:33 <zzo38> It is, although I mean in general and not only the book of that title.
07:19:10 <zzo38> Concordant Crossroads seem to be common in many puzzles though
07:23:04 <ais523> zzo38: because to make a puzzle difficult, you typically need a lot of things happening on one turn
07:23:09 <ais523> and haste is a good way to make that useful
07:24:57 <shachaf> Chess puzzles often continue over several turns.
07:25:03 <shachaf> I suppose determinism makes that easier.
07:25:41 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, I can see that is why; it is why I had include such thing too
07:26:39 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, chess puzzles (and tsume shogi) usually do involve several turns; in Magic: the Puzzling it is usually only one but sometimes more than one or multiple.
07:27:11 <zzo38> The book titled "Magic: the Puzzling" does not use Shahrazad, but has Rosewater ever used it in any other puzzle and has anyone else ever done so?
07:27:34 <shachaf> There's also another card that creates a subgame, right?
07:27:49 <shachaf> Maybe the only other card is an un-card.
07:28:16 <zzo38> Yes I think the only other card is un-card
07:28:34 <shachaf> That card has you play a subgame under the table. What if you're not playing on a table?
07:29:24 <zzo38> Then use the other table!
07:29:45 <ais523> shachaf: there's an official un-ruling that if you have to start playing a subgame under the table when you're already under the table, you have to find a different table to play under
07:29:55 <ais523> this would seem to be a similar situation
07:30:14 <shachaf> Yes, I was specifically thinking of the situation where you're not playing on a table because you're playing under the table.
07:30:24 <shachaf> What if your table has a table underneath it, though?
07:30:38 <shachaf> I suppose that table still qualified as "a different table".
07:36:31 <myname> tsume go also involve several turns
07:40:54 <ais523> it should be noted that un-rulings are possibly not entirely serious
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08:08:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44603&oldid=44602 * Jabutosama * (+996)
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08:19:18 <zzo38> I once asked what actions are considered atomic for the purposes of conceding, and I have been told that nothing is. This allows a lot of possibilities.
08:27:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, but there's also some tricky phrasing in the rule about undoing invalid actions (such as trying to cast a spell that has no valid target) that imply that it doesn't undo conceding, so you can't just concede very quickly when someone says he announces he casts Lava Spike to stop him from casting it and then undo the conceding because the casting is rolled back.
08:29:06 <zzo38> I know that, you can't undo conceding, and you aren't supposed to do anyways.
08:29:08 <b_jonas> no wait, I don't mean Lava Spike. let's say Duress.
08:29:55 <ais523> b_jonas: I was thinking more, suppose that someone's only source of red mana is a Mountain you own (but they control)
08:30:11 <ais523> they start to cast Lava Spike, you concede before they can tap your Mountain for mana
08:30:25 <b_jonas> in fact, you can't undo conceding even in a multiplayer game with more than two teams where the game wouldn't immediately end when you concede.
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08:31:22 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, that can work, but I think there's also a rule that if you concede, then all your teammates lose, so you can't save your team this way. the only thing you can do is influence what opponent wins.
08:31:39 <zzo38> I would prefer to add another rule: Whenever a player concedes, the other players have the chance to choose to concede simultaneously with that player. (Not relevant for the top-level of a 1.vs.1 game)
08:32:03 <ais523> b_jonas: what if your teammates have angel's grace active?
08:32:17 <ais523> I believe your teammates can survive a concession due to formats like Star
08:32:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Are you sure? I think only in Two Headed Giant?
08:32:40 <Taneb> Does the complexity class of Magic change in 4-player commander?
08:32:42 <zzo38> In a normal team game you can concede and not have your entire team to lose.
08:32:50 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't think Angel's Grace saves you from conceding, so I don't think it saves a teammate either, btu let me check the rules
08:32:56 <shachaf> ais523: Conceding in a Star game is very rude, though.
08:32:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno, let me re-read the rules
08:33:11 <zzo38> No effect can stop any player from conceding.
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08:33:20 <shachaf> Well, I think the Star games we used to play weren't the typical ones, actually.
08:33:26 <b_jonas> Obviously you have to be able to concede any time, even during a spell, even without un-games.
08:33:50 <shachaf> Can you concede a subgame?
08:33:52 <ais523> Taneb: I don't think so; I currently believe that Magic is in one of the lower uncomputable complexity classes, even in 2-player 60 card Vintage
08:34:02 <zzo38> Yes I believe you can concede a subgame independently of the main game
08:34:19 <zzo38> (And I can think of situations where you would want to do so)
08:34:26 <shachaf> I used to know a lot of MtG rules but I've forgotten a lot.
08:34:52 <shachaf> My Rules Advisor thing expires next week.
08:35:10 <shachaf> Then it'll be a felony to provide legal advice or something?
08:35:11 <Taneb> I actually played magic yesterday
08:35:20 <ais523> zzo38: the situations aren't even that rare
08:35:30 <b_jonas> oh, you're right, I was wrong
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08:35:34 <ais523> back when Shahrazad was unbanned, if someone played it against you in a tournament
08:35:41 <ais523> conceding the subgame was normally the best option
08:35:43 <b_jonas> the rule that a player conceding makes his team lose is a rule only for Two-Headed Giant
08:35:47 <ais523> Taneb: physical cards? mtgo? proxies?
08:35:52 <Taneb> ais523: physical cards
08:36:04 <Taneb> Commander, two players
08:36:14 <Taneb> A friend lent me a deck
08:36:22 <shachaf> I might play this weekend.
08:36:22 <b_jonas> so in normal multiplayer game, I can indeed concede to save my teammate, such as when an opponent casts Hex
08:36:29 <b_jonas> it's rarely a good strategy, but it can work
08:36:39 <shachaf> The trouble is, the people I play with (including me) all hate playing this game.
08:36:50 <Taneb> Lost the first game, because I never got enough ramp to get going, but then I won the two following games
08:36:53 <ais523> shachaf: if everyone hates it, that's a good reason to not play
08:37:08 <zzo38> ais523: Why was that?
08:37:09 <Taneb> shachaf: indeed, some say that not playing is the only winning move
08:37:14 <b_jonas> Commander with two players?
08:37:21 <b_jonas> isn't Commander a multiplayer format?
08:37:30 <Taneb> What stops you playing with two players?
08:37:40 <shachaf> I think "hate" might be oversimplified.
08:37:45 <zzo38> Yes you can play Commander with two players; rule 903.2 explicitly says so.
08:37:56 <ais523> zzo38: basically because decks that played Shahrazad were either trying to delay the game, or using repeated uses of Wishes to recycle their cards
08:38:03 <Taneb> b_jonas: I do not have a good memory for magic cards
08:38:06 <ais523> and conceding reduces their ability to do either of those things
08:38:18 <shachaf> Taneb: Did you commandeer a deck?
08:38:29 <Taneb> shachaf: essentially
08:38:31 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a format known as Duel Commander or French Commander which is basically just 2 player commander, but the banlist is different because some cards are broken or nonbroken depending on the number of players
08:38:41 <Taneb> But my commander was RGB5, I think a 7/5, gives all my creatures haste and says cascade, cascade
08:38:50 <zzo38> I am not concerned about delaying the game, although the other possibility is something I have thought of. Of course it doesn't work if you have only 1 life point remaining
08:39:10 <b_jonas> ais523: ok. I'd prefer ordinary singleton 60 or 100 card constructed, without the special commander thingies
08:39:34 <shachaf> 100 cards seems like too many to me.
08:39:35 <ais523> b_jonas: "100 card singleton" is a format with minimal official Wizards support (i.e. I think they acknowledge it exists and not much else)
08:39:36 <Taneb> And my opponent's commander let him steal sourceries from the tops of people's decks up to the casting cost?
08:39:43 <shachaf> But I haven't played Commander much.
08:39:58 <ais523> Taneb: those decks sounds like they were designed for multiplayer
08:40:12 <ais523> (because commander decks designed for duels are normally faster)
08:40:31 <Taneb> He had the decks to play later that evening with a bunch of people
08:40:40 <Taneb> And it was the two of us hanging out between lectures
08:40:44 <b_jonas> I've actually played a black deck that was almost singleton, with I think only one (non-basic) card duplicated, and that I could convert to a 60 card singleton deck easily. It wasn't a good deck, mind you.
08:40:49 <zzo38> I have never played Commander, and I don't play Magic: the Gathering much at all (I do sometimes, but rarely), but I am interested in Magic: the Puzzling and would buy more books if they made them
08:40:59 <b_jonas> I played it in ordinary 60 card constructed that is.
08:41:21 <b_jonas> This is because black has so many different cheap removal spells that I can just pack all different ones and still have choices to make.
08:41:27 <shachaf> zzo38: If I made an unofficial Magic: the Puzzling book, would you buy it?
08:42:02 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes I expect so (if it isn't too expensive, and preferably if it can be paid in Canadian money)
08:42:49 <Taneb> I am still a very weak player but I am getting better
08:43:09 <b_jonas> Taneb: hmm indeed, the comprehensive rules specifically say "903.2. A Commander game may be a two-player game or a multiplayer game."
08:43:41 <Taneb> But one of my goals is to become a half-decent player without spending any money on magic
08:43:59 <shachaf> What is the critical Funge98 vulnerability in the topic?
08:44:16 <Taneb> I need to get dressed and go to lectures
08:44:20 <zzo38> Taneb: That is very difficult, even if you are using only proxies
08:45:04 <zzo38> But you can just play with other people you can borrow their cards. And occasionally there are tournaments you don't have to pay
08:45:16 <shachaf> I would give Taneb a bunch of free cards if he was in the area.
08:45:20 <b_jonas> "But my commander was RGB5, I think a 7/5, gives all my creatures haste and says cascade, cascade" -- do you mean Maelstrom Wanderer? That costs 5URG, not 5BRG.
08:45:57 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering, B is for Black, though.
08:45:58 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, black should be K, but that's too late
08:46:20 <zzo38> It was like that ever since the game was invented.
08:46:32 <b_jonas> we're stuck with B=(black mana symbol), U=(blue mana symbol), Q=(untap symbol)
08:46:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: and no, S=(snow mana symbol)
08:47:05 <shachaf> There are so many names for combinations of colors.
08:47:07 <b_jonas> I mean, you could say snow mana shouldn't exist, but still
08:47:38 <shachaf> I might still remember the names for the two-color combinations (Ravnica guilds, right?), but I'm hopeless at the three-color combinations.
08:47:44 <shachaf> It doesn't help that people make up bad slang for them.
08:48:13 <myname> there was a ürogramming game at a google contest, wasn't it?
08:48:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: are there? most of the names are just the names of the Ravnica guilds, the Alara shards, and the Tarkir khans
08:48:49 <shachaf> I never played Alara and I don't remember the Tarkir khans.
08:48:59 <b_jonas> for four-color combinations, you're screwed, though I think zzo38 had some names for them
08:49:19 <shachaf> They could be named in terms of what they aren't.
08:49:20 <zzo38> The names I used are the same as names other people had used for four-colors
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08:50:10 <shachaf> That would be an easy system with half the memorization.
08:50:14 <zzo38> I like that, although it is not the convention
08:50:29 <ais523> shards (WUB, UBR, etc.): esper, grixis, jund, naya, bant; wedges (WUR, etc.): jeskai, sultai, mardu, temur, azban
08:50:40 <ais523> however, I dislike the use of shard/wedge names to name colour combinations only
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08:50:43 <ais523> because they also refer to decks
08:50:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: but what names are they? Yore-Tiller, Glint-Eye, Dune-Brood, Ink-Treader, Witch-Maw?
08:51:10 <ais523> something like "jund" is an established deck in Modern, and players know how it behaves
08:51:26 <ais523> and a black/red/green deck built on different lines, IMO that shouldn't also be called "jund" because it's just confusing
08:52:25 <b_jonas> the shards are easy to remember because they're alphabetized: Bant is white centered and first in alphabetic order, Esper is blue centered and second in alphabetic order, etc
08:53:02 <b_jonas> ais523: it's spelled "abzan", not "azban"
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08:55:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think that works, because "cored" would be a bad name
08:57:15 <zzo38> I have thought of "Functional Commander", where you are not allowed two cards that differ only in name, in addition to standard Commander rules.
08:58:16 <ais523> zzo38: but what if one is strictly better than the other? or the two are the same in nearly all circumstances?
08:58:24 <ais523> e.g. would you allow both lightning strike and volcanic hammer?
08:59:22 <zzo38> ais523: Yes you can have both, as their types differ.
08:59:40 <zzo38> Therefore it is not "differ only in name"
08:59:46 <ais523> so any change is sufficent
08:59:53 <ais523> what about creature type?
09:00:01 <zzo38> Yes. Creature type changed is also sufficient.
09:00:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't really like that. I like the idea of using names, so that you can use both Terramorphic Expanse and the other land that's the same.
09:00:30 <ais523> b_jonas: Evolving Wilds
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09:00:49 <ais523> interesting that you remembered the other one, Wizards seem to prefer Evolving Wilds to Terramorphic Expanse
09:00:58 <ais523> (although Terramorphic came first)
09:01:20 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, because I have old cards in my collection, so I have four of Terramorphic
09:01:28 <b_jonas> but I don't have Evolving Wilds (yet)
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09:01:35 <b_jonas> This might lead to problems like players having to seek out rare cards like Fyndhorn Elves or portal cards,
09:01:43 <ais523> I probably have four of Terramorphic, it was all over the place when I used to draft
09:01:53 <zzo38> It is not allowed both Llanowar Elves and Fyndhorn Elves though; you must choose one or the other. If opponent has to guess the name of the card, they don't know which one you have; put the one opponent think you don't have! Or, if you are playing a variant with teams, use the same name or different name depending on what works best with the decks being used.
09:01:54 <ais523> also people have to seek out rare cards anyway, if their deck needs them
09:01:59 <b_jonas> but that's not really worse than the way people have to seek out expensive cards right now.
09:02:09 <ais523> for example there's a Legacy deck where most of the cards are cheap, but it really needs copies of Imperial Seal to function
09:02:22 <b_jonas> I prefer the rule about English names.
09:02:48 <b_jonas> ais523: is Imperial Seal a dupe of some other card?
09:03:19 <ais523> if it was, the other card would almost certainly be played
09:03:41 <b_jonas> this happens all over magic, in most formats
09:04:09 <b_jonas> you still remember when people were playing 16 mythic rare planeswalkers, including a version of Jace, in their standard deck, right?
09:04:32 <ais523> oh, apparently it has an instant-speed version, which is banned in Legacy (which is why nobody plays it)
09:04:54 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so
09:05:01 <ais523> 16 mythic-rare /cards/, that's believable
09:05:02 <b_jonas> I remember watching a practice match of such a game with all the planeswalkers replaced by proxies. It was very confusing.
09:05:06 <ais523> but I don't think Superfriends has ever been tier 1
09:05:13 <ais523> and it's the only deck that would use that many
09:07:07 <zzo38> Another kind of game would be "Standard Solitaire", which has the same rules of normal game except that rule 104.2a ("A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player's opponents have left the game.") is omitted.
09:07:28 <ais523> what's the win condition? effects that cause you to win only?
09:08:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: that sounds strange
09:08:19 <zzo38> A deck for use with such solitaire game would be really strange
09:08:28 <ais523> I remember winning with Coalition Victory in draft (twice, in fact)
09:08:35 <ais523> (same deck though, two different matches)
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09:08:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think it would be.
09:09:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: you'd just need like two cards in the 60 card deck that were generally dead during most of the game, and you'd play it at your leisure after the opponent leaves the game
09:09:42 <b_jonas> the two cards could be Elixir of Immortality and Helix Pinnacle
09:09:47 <ais523> b_jonas: it's "solitaire" so there probably are no opponents
09:10:02 <ais523> because that's what "solitaire" means
09:10:09 <b_jonas> ais523: but that's not what the rules zzo38 said say
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09:10:33 <zzo38> Well, if you play solitaire that is different, and all other deck-building conditions are ignored (including minimum 60 cards); you would use the deck to make the game more interesting, which would have to be really strange for solitaire playing!
09:10:40 <b_jonas> ais523: rule 101.1 is still working
09:10:43 <mroman_> I'm getting a weird case of GHC stack-space overflow: current limit is 33696 bytes.
09:11:04 <ais523> mroman_: that's… not very big
09:15:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, what all deck-building conditions. can you use non-Magic cards? un-cards? twenty Black Lotus proxies and twenty Plague Rats?
09:16:55 <mroman_> It overflows if I print the structure
09:17:01 <zzo38> Presumably it must be designed using official non-un-cards, although it is not a tournament so you can use proxies if you wish
09:17:15 <mroman_> parsec doesn't stack overflow
09:17:19 <mroman_> parsec will stack overflow
09:17:36 <ais523> mroman_: remember that Haskell is lazy
09:17:46 <ais523> the stack's going to be a bit deeper (inside the print) when you start to evaluate it
09:17:53 <ais523> that might be enough to tip the stack over the limit
09:18:29 <b_jonas> if you don't print it, how do you make sure it's evaluated deeply?
09:20:59 <mroman_> but I don't provide any implentation for show
09:23:08 <zzo38> You can also use standard deck rules if you wish; it is a solitaire game so you can play the variant you want to play.
09:24:23 <b_jonas> mroman_: dunno, ask ghc or the #haskell people
09:24:47 <b_jonas> it would have to use the default show, which I think exists and is based on showS or some such method
09:24:48 <ais523> zzo38: I think goldfishing is probably a better-balanced solitaire game with Magic cards
09:25:32 <zzo38> mroman_: Try it and see what happen
09:25:36 <ais523> you play against a hypothetical opponent who has a deck of 60 cards that can't be played (e.g. sorceries with no rules text or mana cost)
09:25:40 <ais523> and have to beat them on the first turn possible
09:27:21 <b_jonas> ais523: or a deck of 60 forests, and the opponent tries to play a forest from their hand at the first main phase of each turn but does not do much else (this isn't a complete spec, because it doesn't tell what she'd choose if you cast Gifts Ungiven or even just Cruel Edict if she controls creatures).
09:27:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I think someone pointed out that if the opponent is playing basic lands
09:27:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: This is why I made up the other game
09:28:00 <ais523> you can get an unrealistic advantage using land hosers
09:28:59 <b_jonas> ais523: how is that unrealistic? most people play some sort of lands. he's playing only one type of land, you don't get to play landwalkers of all five basic land types for free.
09:29:10 <ais523> b_jonas: well if you know which one it is
09:29:22 <ais523> also basic lands are kind-of rarely used nowadays
09:29:35 <ais523> at least in constructed
09:29:38 <b_jonas> what if he plays plains instead? there are few hosers for that, right?
09:29:53 <ais523> I think all basic land types have hosers
09:30:08 <ais523> I think it might actually be mountains that are the least hosable
09:30:23 <ais523> (you can play mountainwalkers but against a goldfish it doesn't matter because they aren't blocking anyway)
09:30:41 <zzo38> Regardless of what single land type there is also Magical Hack.
09:31:33 <b_jonas> there's Balance; Tithe; Knight of the White Orchid, but all of those work for any lands, basic or non-basic, and Balance makes the opponent sacrifice lands which isn't very powerful against a goldfish.
09:31:45 <ais523> I was thinking of things like Karma
09:32:32 <b_jonas> There's also Fellwar Stone and its land version (what's it called?), but those also work against many of the non-basic lands people typically play
09:32:53 <zzo38> I also thought Karma + Magical Hack
09:33:06 <b_jonas> hmm, is there something that helps you because the opponent has six or seven lands in their hand?
09:33:37 <ais523> there are definitely cards that punish the opponent for having a lot of cards in hand
09:33:43 <ais523> I can't think of one that targets land specifically
09:37:26 <b_jonas> there's some cards that destroy lands, and even one that makes an opponent discard a non-basic land card, but those aren't very useful in a goldfish usually
09:38:34 <mroman_> zzo38: it gives me said stackoverflow :)
09:41:04 <ais523> b_jonas: well it could help to fuel a deathrite shaman
09:41:20 <mroman_> I can't provide a "useful" show instance
09:41:29 <mroman_> because it'd need to be show :: a -> IO String
09:41:58 <mroman_> that's why I just wrote instance Show Foo
09:42:17 <mroman_> instance Show Foo where show x = "<IO>" works fine
09:42:53 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but those kinds of combos don't really give you an unfair advantage.
09:43:05 <b_jonas> you already have a lot of advantage in goldfish.
09:43:35 <b_jonas> and I think mountain would be worse than plains, because there's some giants in Lorwyn and kors in Zendikar who have mountainwalk
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09:44:13 <b_jonas> mountainwalk doesn't give you a big advantage in goldfish
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09:46:39 <b_jonas> does Painter's Servant affect cards in your sideboard, such as for Glittering Wish?
09:47:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the rules are these days.
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10:26:42 <Taneb> I just had a maths lecture in a backless chair
10:26:49 <Taneb> The chair was not designed to be backless
10:26:54 <Taneb> The back was just missing
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10:36:27 <Taneb> Is there a name for fields but without negation
10:36:58 <oerjan> for rings there's rigs
10:36:59 <Taneb> Like, say, probabilities
10:37:25 <oerjan> probabilities don't really have addition
10:37:39 <oerjan> 1 + 1 isn't a probability
10:37:53 <Taneb> Like non-negative reals
10:38:33 <oerjan> they're more like a convex whatchamacallit
10:40:26 <oerjan> the non-negatives are a "cone" in the reals iirc, but that doesn't say anything about division, it's a vector space thing.
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10:48:22 <Tefaj> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarski%27s_high_school_algebra_problem
10:48:30 <Tefaj> Not sure if there's a corresponding thing for fields.
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10:49:29 <boily> ohayœ̄rjan gozaimasu!
10:49:39 <boily> . o O ( damn enter key in the way )
10:50:03 <oerjan> just disable it, who needs it anyway
10:55:14 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
10:56:35 <boily> speaking of pastries, I haven't drank a Fentimans in ages.
10:57:16 <oerjan> what about me, i have _never_ drunk one
10:59:09 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. please ship some to oerjan twh
10:59:41 <Taneb> oerjan: please send address and postage
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10:59:52 <Taneb> I haven't drank a Fentimans in ages, at least three weeks
11:01:38 <boily> I don't want to jump to conclusions too early, but there seems to be a serious impedance mismatch between the two sides of the Great Puddle...
11:01:51 <boily> are you sure your ages were properly calibrated last time?
11:02:59 <fizzie> They had the Curiosity Cola in our local grocery supermarket in Finland back a year or two ago, in the "imports" aisle.
11:03:26 <fizzie> I didn't think it was all that good, to be honest.
11:03:32 <Taneb> There's a sandwich shop next to the university which stocks it but you have to go early to get the curiosity cola
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11:15:16 <b_jonas> ais523: so instead of Stifle, you could take Soul Summons to get Phyrexian Dreadnought, but that doesn't work in the three-card variant you were saying, because there you don't have the Dreadnought in your library
11:17:51 <b_jonas> ais523: you could use Illusionary Mask (plus Phyrexian Dreadnought and Black Lotus, which amounts for three expensive cards, each of which is on the reserved list, but then, what did you expect from something with the Vintage ban list?)
11:18:32 <ais523> right, you expect a lot of Vinage-restricted cards to show up
11:19:53 <b_jonas> Illusionary Mask isn't restricted in Vintage. It's a crazy broken card in the modern sense, but you have to be broken harder than that to be restricted in Vintage.
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11:20:06 <b_jonas> And Phyrexian Dreadnought isn't that broken at all, I think.
11:20:38 <b_jonas> I mean, it's strong, with all the blink effects today it would be better to nerf it a bit, but it's not too broken.
11:21:14 <b_jonas> No wait, not blink effects. Blink doesn't help for Phyerxian Dreadnought. It helps for Krosan Cloudscraper only.
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11:24:08 <fizzie> <span style="text-decoration: blink;"> <!-- deliberately left open -->
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11:25:08 * boily stylishly mapoles fizzie
11:25:59 <fizzie> Just got a spam message saying only, and I quote, "CAN I DISCUSS WITH YOU."
11:29:03 <boily> did you discuss with them?
11:29:33 <fizzie> It's not even a question; it ends in a period.
11:30:40 <fizzie> There's also an inheritance of "$2.500`000`00USD" waiting for me; that's the weirdest grouping of digits.
11:30:50 <fizzie> Not sure if it's just two and a half dollars or what.
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11:47:14 <Taneb> fizzie: most likely
11:49:22 <oerjan> @tell tswett <tswett> Is sin(a*pi) always an algebraic number when a is a rational number? <-- yes i think so. go via sin(z) = (e^(iz) - e^(-iz))/(2i) and then it's combinations of roots of unity.
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12:22:54 <oerjan> argh. must. not. read. magic. discussion.
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12:34:48 <oerjan> <mroman_> what happens if I do <mroman_> instance Show Foo <-- in the case of Show, you get infinite recursion because two of the methods have defaults in terms of each other.
12:35:52 <oerjan> however, this shouldn't blow stack because they're tail recursions.
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12:36:41 <oerjan> ah testing in GHCi you _do_ get a stack overflow.
12:38:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you typing with your feet?
12:38:21 <oerjan> (that's shows = showsPrec 0 iirc)
12:38:46 <oerjan> the ++ s part ruins the tail recursion
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12:46:46 <oerjan> mroman_: note that a dummy instance like show _ = "<IO>" means that "evaluating" a Foo at the GHCi prompt won't actually evaluate it at all.
12:47:26 <oerjan> you might put in a seq, but that'll only evaluate to the top constructor, as usual.
12:48:06 <oerjan> @let data X = X; instance Show X where show = "dummy"
12:48:07 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘X -> String’
12:48:15 <oerjan> @let data X = X; instance Show X where show _ = "dummy"
12:49:54 <oerjan> i suppose to test Parsec, it's enough since you get the "Right " printed.
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13:19:05 <JesseH> Idea. Jimmy, the esoteric language for cracking corn.
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13:30:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44604&oldid=44522 * Padarom * (+461) Adding interpreters
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14:02:17 <Taneb> Woo graph morphism
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15:01:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: an aura with the text "Enchant creature. / Permanents have protection from enchanted creature." would belong to what color? white or blue?
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16:26:20 <MDude> Doof, got disconnected last night.
16:29:40 <MDude> Was about to tell hppavilion[1] that there were already esoteric virtual machines, so using that as the hardware for an esoteric OS project would probably be a good choice.
16:30:08 <MDude> Also, mathematical objects are good.
16:32:03 <MDude> What I think would be nice is a language where the level of abstraction is sort of undefined.
16:32:22 <MDude> In that everything has a primary and optional secondary definition.
16:33:09 <MDude> The primary definitions are all in terms of other things that have primary definitions, and the secondary ones actually describe the object for a specific hardware implementation.
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16:34:58 <MDude> But the interpreter is free to ignore the secondary definitions in favor of the primary ones as much as it wants, even going in multiple loops.
16:36:33 <MDude> Since its choice of primary or secondary definition is undefined beyond "try to avoid leaking user level abstractions down to the hardware level while not running too slow".
16:38:25 <MDude> And the latter can be considered subjective, and depends on available processor speed and memory as well as what situation the computer is being applied in.
16:39:23 <MDude> And I don't see a reason to start with a different set of circularly definable objects than the oens on WIkipedia's page on mathematical objects.
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17:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44605&oldid=44405 * 109.190.184.38 * (+141) Adding a link to a tutorial to create a LLVM based brainfuck compiler
17:56:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: I would expect white but I really don't know.
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20:17:13 <VictorCL> any developer from sweden here?
20:19:31 <HackEgo> VictorCL: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:19:35 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
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20:21:26 <VictorCL> I am a web developer and I am moving to sweden next year and I would like info about on how to find a job there
20:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of the Desktop Metaphor, it would be based around the Henge Metaphor
20:22:47 <fizzie> I-don't-remember-who-it-was was collecting geographical coordinates of channel regulars, not sure if that list's in any way up to date, or available anywhere.
20:23:53 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Is that a very long nick or do you ACTUALLY not remember their name?
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20:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'd guess it's too long to actually be a nick, so...
20:24:08 <fizzie> I actually don't remember their name. Except that it was boily.
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20:24:46 <fizzie> http://lpaste.net/567927726028095488
20:25:04 <int-e> I usually assume that all nordic countries are represented here, but am not sure
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20:25:35 <fizzie> int-e: I couldn't name anyone from Denmark or Iceland offhand.
20:26:49 <VictorCL> what esoterric programming language?
20:27:16 <lambdabot> LOWI 062020Z 23003KT 160V300 9999 RA SCT060 BKN070 14/12 Q1011 NOSIG
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20:28:43 <VictorCL> hppavilion[1] maybe .. dont know about esolang either :P
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20:29:00 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_programming_language
20:30:53 <VictorCL> so if you have lot of free time you get into esoteric programming?
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20:31:57 <int-e> It's a hobby for most people...
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20:36:14 <int-e> There's also a connection to research in theoretical computer science (more specifically computability theory, where people are interested, among other things, in minimal Turing-complete formalisms)
20:36:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to come up with an esoteric basis for UI metaphors...
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20:38:44 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: easy, brain waves ;)
20:38:44 <int-e> in fact it's an opportunity to join forces with the OTHER kind of esoterica... I'm afraid... let's pretend I never wrote this
20:39:15 <int-e> hi a ^= b; b ^= a; a ^= b;
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20:40:11 <int-e> XorSwap: how's your friend, a -= b; b += a; a = b - a?
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20:55:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Conor O'Brien * New user account
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20:57:10 <oerjan> hm i must be misremembering the name
20:57:17 * oerjan thought that was a haskeller
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20:58:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44606 * Conor O'Brien * (+244) Created page with "Hello! I am an aspiring Mathematics person and programming. I am currently into program language development, ergo, I start with simple, esoteric languages. Thanks for droppin..."
20:58:48 <oerjan> there's also conan, of course. very portmantish.
20:59:26 <shachaf> there's also O'Brien from 1984
20:59:50 <oerjan> hm was that the inner party man
21:00:23 <int-e> oerjan: did you know that you cost me an hour of sleep last night
21:00:58 <int-e> oerjan: I proved in Isabelle that kjoin (kjoin xs) = kjoin (map kjoin xs) but it was messier than I expected
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21:01:34 <shachaf> should've thought to logcheck
21:01:35 <int-e> kjoin xs = if [] `elem` xs then [] else concat xs
21:01:54 <oerjan> int-e: um you shouldn't use elem that requires Eq
21:02:21 <shachaf> kjoin xs | any null xs = [] | otherwise = concat xs
21:02:51 <oerjan> shachaf: that's what i had
21:03:07 <int-e> oerjan: right, I was translating back from Isabelle, where I had kjoin xss = (if [] ∈ set xss then [] else concat xss)
21:03:17 <shachaf> you shouldn't use booleans because booleans are scow hth
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21:03:56 <oerjan> i think shachaf might be overdoing it
21:04:06 <shachaf> i do think booleans are fairly scow
21:04:13 <shachaf> but i don't see an easy other way of doing it
21:04:21 <shachaf> given haskell's standard library
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21:06:08 <oerjan> my followup question now is whether there's any join for [] with the same Applicative that isn't concat when all lists are nonempty. i can show it must be a _permutation_ of concat.
21:06:29 <oerjan> (for any given list of lists.)
21:07:05 <oerjan> also, i think this monad i found is in spirit NonEmptyT Maybe
21:07:18 <oerjan> except NonEmptyT isn't defined anywhere i could find.
21:07:35 <shachaf> oerjan: you should mention it to dolio
21:08:10 <oerjan> while the _normal_ list is MaybeT NonEmpty
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21:09:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mineso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44607&oldid=26349 * Hppavilion1 * (-10) Fixed a CN
21:09:22 <oerjan> that seems to give too many empty lists.
21:09:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mineso]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44608&oldid=44607 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Fixed a "fixed" CN
21:10:36 <oerjan> shachaf: i did edit it into an SO answer
21:11:56 <oerjan> well ljoin and kjoin are the same.
21:12:23 <shachaf> i suppose i already knew that join wasn't injective
21:13:06 <shachaf> so it makes sense that ljoin = lkjoin even though l /= k
21:13:07 <oerjan> (the "maybe not" was to the MaybeT NonEmpty)
21:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is it safe to define a fungeoid as having instruction pointer direction, and not necessarily being multidimensional? (such as in Unefunge)?
21:14:08 <oerjan> shachaf: well i just made kjoin to @check that the two version were the same. i think.
21:14:56 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: Unefunge also needs deltas, i think, so distance as well as direction.
21:15:16 * oerjan doesn't know what happens if you allow only +-1
21:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Ah right. Should I make deltas be a required feature or just be a preferred feature
21:16:00 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Well a funge /could/ be tape-based instead of stack-based (I think), so a Fungeoid could be TC without deltas by making it BF-convertible
21:16:01 <oerjan> well you don't need them if dimension > 1
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21:16:48 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: but going between [ and ] in bf is an arbitrary large jump
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21:17:27 <oerjan> your brain is fucked hth
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21:22:28 <int-e> oerjan's on a hth... highway to hell
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21:24:22 <int-e> this must not happen
21:25:23 <shachaf> http://dancrew2010.deviantart.com/art/TMNH-Design-1-332585425 hth
21:25:41 <shachaf> http://www.deviantart.com/art/Requested-Art-T-M-N-H-352432924
21:25:46 <shachaf> apparently these are quite popular to draw
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21:41:35 <hppavilion[1]> What weird ways to Fungeoids play with Instruction Execution Order?
21:43:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fungeoid]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44609&oldid=22429 * Hppavilion1 * (+4159) Made page good.
21:45:50 * hppavilion[1] vanishes silently into the night, a hero of the city of interwebzopolis
21:47:25 <int-e> . o O ( So tempted to fill that with "The Internet is for porn!" )
21:47:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, tamalor. Thamalor.
21:47:47 <HackEgo> Thanks, luption. Thuption.
21:48:06 <fizzie> It's good to have lots of thumption.
21:49:31 <int-e> Maybe I should fill it with "The Internet is really really great! / I have a fast connection so I don't have to wait! / There's always a new site / I surf all day and night / I'm almost surfing at the speed of light!" and keep it to the reader to fill in the gaps.
21:49:42 <int-e> s/keep/leave/ (urk)
21:51:22 <int-e> And of course I may be the only one still remembering that 2003 meme.
21:53:01 <int-e> And I got the lyrics slightly wrong and I'm talking to myself.
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21:54:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Star651]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44610&oldid=25981 * Hppavilion1 * (+104) /* Um. */ new section
21:56:00 <hppavilion[1]> What's that game called where the whole goal is to make up new rules?
21:59:09 <int-e> the game is nomic.
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22:07:36 <b_jonas> Cueball in http://www.xkcd.com/1586/ reminds me to Guy Litter from the StickManStickMan webcomic, who has similar superpowers
22:09:07 <oerjan> also, the Pauli Effect
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22:19:02 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to start playing Nomic with some friends
22:20:19 <int-e> new rule, we shall only discuss nomic in years whose number according to the gregorian calendar is a prime number
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22:22:37 <oerjan> oops someone actually spoke in ##nomic but left before we noticed
22:22:55 <oerjan> (it's not very active)
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22:33:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44611 * Conor O'Brien * (+2658) Created page with "'''Sacred''' is a joke esoteric language created by [[User:Conor O'Brien]] that is primarily a [[Brainf***]] derivative, but adds extra commands. It is entirely comprise of th..."
22:38:56 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should make a language called "Brainf***" so that all the pages with people afraid of cursing redirect to the wrong page
22:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm talking event-driven combinatory logic different)
22:45:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Omnifuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44612&oldid=40987 * Hppavilion1 * (+28) Reduced size of monolithic opening paragraph
22:46:05 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], i'm formally in favour of anything that prevents brainfuck derivatives
22:46:44 <hppavilion[1]> Should we create the ODABD (Organization in Defence Against Brainfuck Derivatives)
22:47:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i tried delegating my brainfuck derivative hating duties to taneb but the lazy bastard just slacked off
22:47:08 <hppavilion[1]> (I've actually made a BF derivative, but it's meant to be potentially useful to someone someday somehow)
22:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> (And a language inspired by a rather good brainfuck derivative called Arborealis)
22:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> (and a Markup Language that incorporates BF into it)
22:49:36 * hppavilion[1] sets aside a brick so Phantom_Hoover doesn't have to
22:51:16 <HackEgo> 1056) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time \ 1186) <Bike> learn you a unicycle for great good
22:51:26 <Taneb> I am a small step closer!
22:51:35 <Taneb> (I attended an introduction session at the kendo club)
22:52:45 <myname> that won't help you cycling!
22:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> I'm OK with BF derivatives if they add something original
22:53:42 <Taneb> The thing is I can do the two separately, myname
22:54:43 <myname> Taneb: it's all a matter of training
22:54:50 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: o hai. is this accurate twh http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/151005.html
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22:57:05 <boily> fizziello. did you inherit your $2.50?
22:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> What comes after # in the language suffix sequence?
22:58:15 <boily> # is a stack of two ++, therefore it should be three ++ on top of each other.
22:58:57 <boily> not sure about that.
22:59:22 <myname> we could use +- stacked
22:59:36 <fizzie> There's the ⁂ (U+2042 ASTERISM) but no PLUSTERISM.
22:59:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to make a BF derivative that could, potentially, be almost /useful/ to someone
23:00:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44613&oldid=44550 * Hppavilion1 * (+332) Added Goal (please don't brick me)
23:00:09 <boily> that'll do. it's a stack, there are three thingies, they have spokes.
23:01:28 * boily glares extremely suspiciously at hppavilion[1]
23:02:08 * boily oils, polishes and tunes his mapole for maximum celerity
23:02:56 <fizzie> Oh. While there's no PLUSTERISM, there is a TRIPLE PLUS -- it's just boring-looking: ⧻
23:04:08 <boily> fizzie: just you wait for some bored Haskeller to use it for arrows.
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23:07:26 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA...
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23:09:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44614&oldid=44611 * Conor O'Brien * (+3216)
23:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44615 * Hppavilion1 * (+1799) Started page (will finish later)
23:16:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44616&oldid=44614 * Conor O'Brien * (+654)
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23:21:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44617&oldid=44146 * Conor O'Brien * (+97) /* General languages */
23:26:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sacred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44618&oldid=44616 * Conor O'Brien * (+5) /* Interpreter */
23:29:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44619&oldid=44597 * Conor O'Brien * (+362)
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23:50:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44620&oldid=44606 * Conor O'Brien * (+13) /* Languages I have made */
23:50:22 <hppavilion[1]> So, I know BF derivatives are typically bad, etc. etc.
23:50:34 <hppavilion[1]> But what if a derivative includes something new and unique?
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23:52:04 <boily> I don't think there are any esolangs with an HCF instruction yet. you could always add that.
23:53:24 <hppavilion[1]> "The expression "catch fire" in this context is normally facetious, rather than literal - referring to a total loss of CPU functionality during the current session, not physical damage."
23:53:46 <boily> normally. there are recorded cases of fire ^^
23:57:33 <hppavilion[1]> So Functional Programming in a BF derivative. Is that supreme enough for it to be an acceptable derivative?
23:57:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Assuming that "Acceptable Derivatives" start, at maximum, at around where Arborealis is)
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00:01:35 <hppavilion[1]> http://store.steampowered.com/app/370360/?snr=1_7_15__13
00:20:19 <Sgeo> I know a REBOLer who loves SpaceChem as educational
00:20:31 <Sgeo> I don't think I got far in it
00:29:04 <zzo38> I remember I once asked someone to make up a Magic: the Gathering card; he made up an artifact called "Smoking Wand" with the text: {2}, {T}: Touch this wand to your opponent's nose and his nose catches fire. (If today is Tuesday, his nose explodes instead.)
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00:32:17 <zzo38> He also made up a green enchantment called "Balanced Acorn" with the text: Enchanted creature gets +1/+1 (due to being able to well balance acorns on their head).
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00:53:20 <boily> @tell oerjan Please remind me to mapole you when you are back.
00:55:06 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
00:55:29 <boily> `? thwackamacallit
00:55:30 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
00:55:39 <boily> izabera: that should clarify the matter.
00:56:07 <izabera> is this how canadians explain things?
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00:57:32 <boily> it's essentially a maple pole. a mapole, eh.
00:58:46 <izabera> the interwebz says it's a magnetic dipole
01:00:14 <izabera> http://www.acronymfinder.com/Magnetic-Dipole-Spark-Transmitter-(MAPOLE).html
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01:13:33 <JesseH> What about a language where the stack is handled, then executed at the end of the script (stack definition), and the interpreter loops through the stack until its members have been removed?
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01:16:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44621&oldid=44617 * SuperJedi224 * (+37)
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01:34:47 <JesseH> It's pretty much an array
01:35:11 <hppavilion[1]> How about a mandatorily reversible language? Called "Bounce", where the instructions are executed forward, then backward, theen forward, then backward (up and down from the programmers point of view, as if bouncing)
01:35:30 <JesseH> That could be fun too.
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01:51:53 <fizzie> JesseH: That sounds vaguely familiar; or at least the concept of "turn the data manipulated by the program into what gets executed next, and that's the only looping construct". Maybe not with a stack-oriented language, though.
01:53:46 <fizzie> Fueue is a bit like that. The source code defines the initial values of a queue, and execution means looking at the head of the queue and doing stuff (potentially involving appending elements to the tail) until there is no queue anymore.
01:55:42 <hppavilion[1]> What ways are there of thinking of programming languages?
01:56:52 <hppavilion[1]> There's: As a map from strings to a map from input string to an output string; As an algorithm; As a TM; As a λ-expression; what else?
01:57:27 <fizzie> Cellular automata is p. popular.
01:57:43 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about the Philosophy of Computer Science
01:57:45 <fizzie> In general, "model of computation" is the term you want.
01:58:00 <hppavilion[1]> And ways of thinking of languages is a core of it, AFAICT
02:09:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44622&oldid=44593 * Zzo38 * (+1552) TeX
02:26:23 <JesseH> Writing up a README for what I'm calling Stoop.
02:26:33 <JesseH> Tends to be where I start most of my projects these days. :P
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03:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Have you considered PostScript for that list yet?
03:54:04 <Sgeo> If Microsoft is unveiling its first laptop, what was the Surface before then?
03:55:34 <Sgeo> Also 1500 for something that probably has less graphics power than what I have now seems a bit... excessive...
03:56:05 <Sgeo> Oh, SurfaceBooks are like MacBooks!
03:57:40 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Which peso?
03:58:15 <pikhq> None of them are PSO, and all of 'em are fairly low in value.
03:59:26 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Do you know PostScript much?
03:59:43 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I've read about it and tried to learn it, but no
03:59:52 <pikhq> The CUP is quite literally worthless in that there's no real way to get any from USD.
04:00:51 <pikhq> It's not a convertible currency.
04:00:55 <\oren\> bah. another flimsy overpriiced craptop
04:02:16 <pikhq> Ah, though it will gain value, as they're getting rid of the CUP.
04:02:29 <pikhq> (that's the ones you can actually buy)
04:05:50 <\oren\> For 1000$ I want something that will last a decade or so
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04:11:49 <\oren\> If a computer costs 2000$ it ought to keep working ok for 20 years
04:27:12 <zzo38> What happen in a Magic: the Gathering game if a spell goes missing from the stack during the process of casting that spell?
04:30:16 <pikhq> Believe me, I checked.
04:30:55 <pikhq> A flashed Sharhazad in a deck with wishes can be used as a terrible self counterspell.
04:31:49 <pikhq> Hrm, wait. Define "process of casting". Do you mean the game action 'casting' whereby it gets put on the stack, some point where it's on the stack, or during resolution?
04:33:37 <zzo38> I mean the steps from 601.2a to 601.2i in the rules.
04:34:07 <zzo38> So after it is put on the stack but before caster gets priority.
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06:06:23 <zzo38> My guess is that it would continue as if nothing happened, although the spell is no longer there and therefore cannot resolve. But, I don't know!
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06:45:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was wondering if you could make something like that happen with Panglacial Wurm, and in particular, whether you could run an “end the turn” action during casting a spell
06:46:45 <b_jonas> I couldn't figure out a solution. Some strange things can happen with Panglacial Wurm because you can sacrifice creatures for mana abilities to pay for Panglacial, but I can't make anything wierd happen immediately (as opposed to later when sbe are checked or you get priority).
06:46:50 <b_jonas> I still wonder if there's a way.
06:47:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: how is Shahrazad relevant here though?
06:53:02 <b_jonas> There are lots of different mana abilities that let you sac creatures, so maybe I could sac some permanent that has an interesting static effect.
06:53:22 <b_jonas> But most static effects cause strange things only later, through sbe.
06:59:47 <izabera> i want to write a virtual machine for games
07:00:08 <izabera> but it will only support games such as super mario, or sonic, and such games
07:00:23 <izabera> and it will work on linux, windows, mac osx, everywhere
07:00:34 <izabera> it will be a multiplatform platform game platform
07:04:10 <b_jonas> Wait wait! What if I had an animated Humility, my opponent had an Angelic Arbiter. I attack with a bear, cast Diabolic Tutor, as I search, cast Panglacial Wurm from my library, pay for it with Ashnod's Altar, saccing the Humility, so the static ability of Angelic Arbiter says I can't cast spells.
07:05:40 <zzo38> I am not talking about Shahrazad.
07:06:38 <zzo38> b_jonas: You activate mana abilities and pay costs after it is checked whether or not the spell is legal.
07:08:45 <b_jonas> Could you do some other crazy stuff by turning on a static ability of a permanent in a similar manner?
07:09:53 <b_jonas> Especially if you use something more complicated than Diabolic Tutor, and something that spell tries to do after searching the library would interact with the static ability.
07:10:14 <zzo38> Probably you can, yes, due to mana abilities or costs; you might even be able to avoid state-based effects in this way.
07:11:41 <zzo38> See if a puzzle can be made up involving such things!
07:13:39 <zzo38> If a card has an ability: {4}, {T}: Add {1} to your mana pool. All spells with split-second ability are countered. then you could counter a spell with split-second before its cost is paid. Of course that is just made up and is not an official card (for now, at least).
07:14:31 <shachaf> If an ability says "Add {0} to your mana pool", is it still a mana ability?
07:15:48 <zzo38> As far as I can tell due the rules, it is not; although the rules ought to be that it is because it is "add to your mana pool"
07:17:18 <shachaf> What if it says "Add {X} to your mana pool, where X is 1 if there are more than two players in the game and 0 otherwise", and there are only two players in the game?
07:24:08 <zzo38> As far as I know it is still a mana ability but I am not sure. I have thought of stuff like that, although it was a card in the Conspiracy set, I think
07:25:36 <b_jonas> Is there such a thing as a Fellwar Myr, or a similar green druid, or a Fellwar Cantor, or a Fellwar Ritual/Song instant?
07:26:56 <b_jonas> oh, there is a druid: Quirion Explorer
07:27:09 <b_jonas> but that's a bit expensive. I think a myr version that costs {2} could work.
07:27:50 <b_jonas> and Sylvok Explorer too … hmm
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09:17:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Flawr * New user account
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09:58:44 <mroman> DEP + Stack Cannaries sucks
09:59:36 <mroman> Ideally all systems would use DEP, Stack Cannaries, ASLR
09:59:43 <mroman> and that's going to make it really hard to write exploits.
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10:02:52 <b_jonas> no, people will still always write a lot of bad code that does all kinds of things on untrusted input, as they're financially incentived to write bad code quickly.
10:03:25 <b_jonas> I mean, people still write lots of insecure code in high-level languages that do bounds check, and it's not buffer overflows and mistakes like that.
10:04:27 <mroman> Yeah, you can still corrupt data of course.
10:05:29 <mroman> and there's JIT spraying
10:08:47 <b_jonas> Or run commands from untrusted input, or just make a mistake in authorization properly so anyone can access a lot of data they shouldn't through a service, or lots of other possibilities.
10:13:02 <b_jonas> I mean, seriously, python is (probably) adding a form of string literal with interpolation (sort of like double-quoted strings in ruby), and the most important reservation they had about this is that PEOPLE WILL USE IT TO INTERPOLATE UNTRUSTED STRINGS INTO SQL STATEMENTS so some thing the feature should be added only when there's another similar interpolation syntax that doesn't concatenate everything to a string but produces and abstract list of pieces
10:13:14 <b_jonas> \ so some thing the feature should be added only when there's another similar interpolation syntax that doesn't concatenate everything to a string but produces and abstract list of pieces so that the sql prepare function can put placeholders where the interpolated parts are automatically.
10:13:41 <b_jonas> I mean, come on! Hasn't programmers stopped doing that like two decades ago?
10:14:37 <b_jonas> I can sort of understand it when you're messing with cmd on windows, spawning programs that you didn't write, because there getting command-line quoting to work properly is impossible. But in sql statements?
10:15:18 <b_jonas> Incidentally, is there a perl module that overloads string literals for this kind of magic for sql statements?
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10:25:15 <lambdabot> boily said 9h 31m 54s ago: Please remind me to mapole you when you are back.
10:29:13 <mroman> b_jonas: schools still teach the usual $id = GET['id']; $query = "SELECT * FROM WHERE id = $id";
10:29:28 <mroman> I was taught it this way
10:29:33 <mroman> and they still teach it this way
10:31:03 <mroman> Mostly because IT teachers are usually self-taught people who learned electrical engineering but eventually became computer guys
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10:48:08 <b_jonas> We try to say that only PHP people do it that way, but it's not true. It occurrs with SQL-related code in all kinds of languages.
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10:51:45 <fizzie> Well, let's be fair: in some languages they do it by string concatenation rather than variable interpolation.
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11:06:30 <oerjan> the haskell wiki has an annoying lack of several features. the search menu doesn't even complete...
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11:26:54 <oerjan> stupid time zones. and sleeping.
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11:27:55 <int-e> time zones are great, they just need to be liberated from geography
11:29:23 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
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11:30:33 <boily> timezones are great. let's make more of them!
11:30:43 <oerjan> int-e: what i wanted to tell shachaf is that i have distilled down my proof that ZipList isn't a monad to just two test cases.
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11:31:25 <oerjan> [[[],[7,8]] and [[[1,2],[3,4]],[[],[7,8]]]
11:31:59 <oerjan> join . join = join . fmap join _must_ break for one of them, given that we know what join must do on rectangular lists.
11:32:46 <oerjan> (which one depends on whether join [[],[7,8]] = [] or not.)
11:33:09 <oerjan> (eliding ZipList wrapping here.)
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11:41:43 <oerjan> (i searched the ircbrowse logs for #haskell for "ZipList monad" a few years back yesterday to see if anyone there had given a full proof, which not only told me they hadn't but that shachaf was particularly annoyed at the question keeping coming up :P)
11:45:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think I asked about that at some point
11:45:37 <b_jonas> asked why it's not a monad, that is
11:45:42 <b_jonas> or maybe about some other similar applicable
11:46:54 <oerjan> it does keep coming up
11:46:59 <b_jonas> There might not be a precise proof.
11:47:22 <b_jonas> I mean, might not be a precise proof in the part of the logs I mentioned.
11:47:37 <b_jonas> It comes up because we know few nice examples of applicables that aren't monads.
11:47:43 <b_jonas> And ZipList is among them.
11:47:55 <oerjan> Const m is another btw
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11:49:24 <oerjan> you cannot get join (pure (Const m)) = Const m to hold because pure (Const m) doesn't actually contain m in it :P
11:50:52 <oerjan> > pure (Const "hi") :: Const [String] a
11:50:53 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Const [Char] b0’
11:50:53 <lambdabot> ‘a1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
11:51:16 <oerjan> > pure (Const "hi") :: Const [String] Bool
11:51:17 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Bool’
11:51:17 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Const [Char] b0’
11:51:17 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘pure’, namely ‘(Const "hi")’
11:51:41 <oerjan> > pure (Const "hi") :: Const String (Const String a)
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15:26:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whitespace]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44623&oldid=38185 * 206.248.181.119 * (+2443) site is currently offline. Technically copying stuff from the page, but technically API/syntax aren't copyright.
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15:29:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Capricorn]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44624&oldid=44204 * 206.248.181.119 * (+21)
15:32:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whitespace]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44625&oldid=44623 * Oerjan * (-2443) Undo revision 44623 by [[Special:Contributions/206.248.181.119|206.248.181.119]] ([[User talk:206.248.181.119|talk]]) (Technically I don't think you understand copyright.)
15:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of revisions on page [[Whitespace]]: Copyright violation: Even if the API doesn't make it Copyvio, the presentation may
15:36:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whitespace]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44626&oldid=44625 * Oerjan * (+25) /* External resources */ Wayback for now
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17:04:48 <shachaf> oerjan: dolio liked your example, but not in #haskell.
17:20:24 <zzo38> SQL has host parameters so you can use that to enter values into SQL statements from another programming language.
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19:22:30 <quintopia> @tell boily decided to go caving on saturday. sunday still ostensibly free.
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19:56:31 <newsham> hrmm.. has anyone ever made a mobius paper-tape quine?
19:57:31 <b_jonas> newsham: what would that mean?
20:00:46 <newsham> a program on paper tape, where the paper tape is arranged as a mobius strip.
20:00:53 <newsham> that when loaded will generate itself
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20:22:19 <hppavilion[1]> MOBIUS TURING MACHINE MOBIUS TURING MACHINE MOBIUS TURING MACHINE
20:23:57 <hppavilion[1]> "Then remember it's two-sided, so repicture the mobius strip as having half of infinite length"
20:23:58 <b_jonas> newsham: but how do you load it? also, isn't ticker tape assymetric, so you can't load it upside down?
20:24:10 <b_jonas> I mean, where do you start and stop feeding it?
20:24:39 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Well, you would... um... Mayb- no, that wouldn't work. Hm...
20:24:43 <b_jonas> tape readers are very fast, so you'd need a very long strip to have a chance to glue the two ends together
20:24:56 <b_jonas> and even then, I don't think it will work upside down
20:25:37 <newsham> hmm.. i dont know.. is it designed to only fit in one way?
20:25:42 <newsham> in that case i guess its not possible :(
20:26:19 <b_jonas> newsham: dunno, which type of paper tape? the 5 hole or the 7 hole one?
20:26:36 <newsham> i didnt know there were two types :)
20:28:37 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if there really is. I've only ever seen the 5 hole one.
20:28:58 <b_jonas> But I think 7 hole one exists at least mythically, possibly in reality too.
20:29:31 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZANENrRWdhR1FNZjQ that's quite the title
20:30:55 <b_jonas> I think it's because 5 bit bytes with telex-like code were used for so long that few people made electromechanic terminals with 7 bit bytes and ascii-like code (though I know such a thing exists, or at least a 6 bit byte one does), so ticker tape got mostly obsolate by the time people would start to use 7 bit bytes.
20:31:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44627&oldid=44615 * Hppavilion1 * (+418) Control Flow
20:32:09 <b_jonas> Note though that ASCII was clearly _designed_ such that you can use it with ticker tape: that's why \x7f is the DEL character, so you can backspace and overpunch any character with DEL and then it will be ignored when the ticker is read.
20:35:25 <b_jonas> this is what the 5-bit ticker tape (with baudot code) looks like: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Baudot_Tape.JPG
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20:36:27 <b_jonas> and this is an 8 hole ticker tape: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bootstrapping_tableau.jpg
20:36:42 <b_jonas> this is 8 hole too: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Cromemco_Dazzlemation_Program_on_Punched_Paper_Tape.jpg
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20:38:04 <b_jonas> this too: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Papertape.jpg
20:38:13 <b_jonas> so it certainly at least exists
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20:42:10 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAbGd1Y3ByazNGYk0 <- more 5-bit tape
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20:44:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck⁂]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44628 * SuperJedi224 * (+50) Created page with "Plain, ordinary Brainf*** already has while loops."
20:45:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44629&oldid=44628 * Hppavilion1 * (+84) Repsonded
20:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44630&oldid=44629 * SuperJedi224 * (+97)
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21:21:40 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: dolio liked your example, but not in #haskell. <-- wait what do you mean by "not in #haskell"? also ASK ME ABOUT MY 3 STEP PROOF THAT ZIPLIST IS DEFINITELY NOT A MONAD TWH
21:22:37 <shachaf> i'm getting an urge to ask about a proof of some sort
21:22:43 <shachaf> nah, it would probably just annoy people if i asked about it
21:23:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'hug': hugs are good
21:23:45 <oerjan> step 1 (common knowledge): to get the right Applicative, join needs to give the diagonal for all "rectangular" ZipLists.
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21:24:39 <oerjan> step 2: use step 1 to ponder join . join = join . fmap join for the ziplist [[[],[7,8]]]. conclude that join [[],[7,8]] is [].
21:25:20 <oerjan> step 3: use step 1 and 2 to ponder it for [[[1,2],[3,4]],[[],[7,8]]]. get contradiction.
21:25:44 <shachaf> oerjan: imo post that somewhere where i can link to it twh
21:26:10 <oerjan> that's my problem, i cannot decide on a good place
21:26:18 <shachaf> e.g. ask on stackoverflow and then answer your own question
21:26:49 <shachaf> (apparently this is approved behavior)
21:28:09 <shachaf> it's in perfect <140-character-sized chunks
21:28:51 <olsner> I wonder if shachaf is the shachaf I followed
21:29:07 <shachaf> i'm not https://twitter.com/funpuns hth
21:29:13 <olsner> I may have done this before and then realized you don't tweet anything
21:29:44 <olsner> but "@shachaf hasn't tweeted yet."
21:30:07 <shachaf> "@shachaf hasn't tweeted-and-not-deleted yet"
21:30:16 <oerjan> also considering just making a plain html document.
21:30:23 <shachaf> usually i delete my twits within a few hours or days
21:30:39 <oerjan> that's very antisocial, shachaf
21:30:46 <oerjan> deleting stuff, i mean
21:30:49 <shachaf> then ask a stackoverflow question that and link to your plain html document in the answer
21:31:00 <shachaf> then twit a link to your stackoverflow question
21:31:18 <shachaf> then post your twit on irc
21:31:39 <shachaf> olsner: You should circlify me on Google+
21:31:46 <shachaf> I do have a couple of undeleted posts there.
21:31:50 <olsner> I have unplussed my google, I think
21:32:16 <olsner> my employer has a google+ though
21:32:22 <shachaf> I also have some undeleted posts on Facebook.
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21:35:08 <oerjan> also considering haskell wiki but damn have they ruined the formatting
21:35:39 <shachaf> get an account on comonad.com and post it there hth
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21:51:10 <shachaf> oerjan: You could publish it as a PDF file and then restrict everyone from seeing it for months.
21:54:37 <shachaf> i hear your pal is an expert in publishing pdfs
21:56:16 <ais523> shachaf: so what do you think of my thesis?
21:57:04 <ais523> and you went to so much trouble to get a copy, too
21:57:13 <ais523> how about this: if it becomes publicly available before you get to read it
21:57:17 <ais523> I get to mock you for it
21:58:27 <shachaf> You can already mock me for it if you want.
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22:06:13 <izabera> create a file where the first 20 bytes are the file's sha1
22:06:56 <izabera> and make it as short as possible
22:09:29 <ais523> izabera: sha1? you may have some problems there
22:09:38 <ais523> I'm not even sure it can be done with md5 yet
22:09:48 <ais523> (there's an IOCCC entry that can do it with CRC-32)
22:11:49 <shachaf> "can" in a practical sense.
22:12:38 <oerjan> you can however make a program that prints its own sha1, with standard quining techniques.
22:13:02 <oerjan> (or any other computable function of the source)
22:14:12 <oerjan> izabera: technically the pigeon hole principle _might_ not apply... it _could_ be that sha1 never gives the same as the initial 20 bytes
22:14:23 <oerjan> although it's pretty unlikely
22:15:47 <ais523> right, I was going to say that
22:15:53 <ais523> pigeonhole principle doesn't prove that you can do it
22:16:05 <ais523> although a probabilistic argument does, unless SHA-1 has some weird rules we're currently unaware of
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22:16:29 <shachaf> Do you think sha1 is surjective?
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22:21:16 <izabera> http://stackoverflow.com/a/1896723/2815203 this guy says it is <.<
22:22:05 <shachaf> That person is talking about the codomain of SHA1, not the image.
22:23:32 <oerjan> today's square root of minus garfield seems girl genius inspired
22:23:41 <oerjan> SO has referral links?
22:24:36 <shachaf> you get badges if enough people click your referral links
22:26:57 <oerjan> ok but badges don't really give you anything do they
22:27:45 <shachaf> thanks for making that good point
22:29:52 <oerjan> also it looks pretty awkward to get hold of a _non-referral_ link to an SO comment.
22:31:26 <oerjan> shachaf: rep at least gives you some moderation powers
22:33:58 <oerjan> izabera: i wouldn't be surprised if there's no actual known proof that SHA1 is surjective. the obvious way of proving such a thing is to find an inverse, but if that was even moderately efficient you could generate collisions at will...
22:34:35 <oerjan> of course i also don't know enough about SHA1 to have heard if there is such a proof.
22:34:51 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure no one knows for sure.
22:35:50 <oerjan> it is of course _possible_ that there could be an inverse that can be proven correct but is infeasible to actually calculate.
22:36:12 <shachaf> i guess you just mean a right inverse
22:36:39 <oerjan> well yes, was about to say, except this is one of those cases where i cannot remember what is left and right
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22:49:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/List handling]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44631&oldid=44348 * Timwi * (-119) Remove redundantly duplicated duplicate
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23:17:58 <zzo38> I think in the very old Magic: the Gathering rules you could only counter a spell before it becomes successfully cast (in modern rules you can only counter a spell after it becomes successfully cast).
23:19:12 <shachaf> Did "successfully cast" mean something else in the old rules?
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23:20:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Emchatman * New user account
23:21:48 <zzo38> It means the process of casting it has been completed (as it does now), although it could be interrupted before, and therefore not successful. (At least I think this is how it is working)
23:24:05 <zzo38> I don't really understand the old rules (I only have a few diagrams and some other incomplete information), but it seems that, once an item on a stack resolved (or failed to resolve), you could no longer add to that stack until it is emptied (but you could add regeneration effects to a new stack during that time).
23:26:56 <zzo38> Interrupts do not use the stack (as now mana abilities do not use the stack) and normally resolve immediately, unless you target a spell which you did not cast and that the caster of that spell has not yet given up the right to target, in which case the interrupt is placed on a queue (not a stack); each spell has its own queue of interrupts targeting it. Well, at least that is what it looks like to me; I could be wrong.
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23:39:03 <izabera> why does stat(2) return the size in bytes in a off_t?
23:39:42 <ais523> presumably because that's what fseek() takes as an argument
23:39:53 <ais523> also stat64(2) uses a different return type for the size
23:40:08 <ais523> because it was realised it was a problem
23:40:32 <ais523> I believe stat(3) uses stat64(2) (or maybe something even newer?) behind the scenes nowadays
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00:22:41 <izabera> anyway my question was mostly about its signedness
00:25:21 <HackEgo> perpetual motion machine/Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
00:25:26 <lambdabot> quintopia said 5h 2m 56s ago: decided to go caving on saturday. sunday still ostensibly free.
00:26:10 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia. I'll be in Québec City this weekend for Thanksgiving >_>'... 申し訳ありません
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00:29:35 <\oren\> AAAAAAAAAA nothing works!
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00:33:51 <boily> \HELLOREEEEEEEEEN\
00:33:57 <boily> please state your emergency.
00:37:19 <boily> you aren't stating very much. that can only mean a purple fish ate spaghetti next Thursday.
00:37:51 <\oren\> hmm my website was malfunctioning but now it's fine
00:41:54 <boily> speaking of fish, could you please add 紫,紺 and 碧?
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02:54:22 <shachaf> "hugs are good" was meant to be an acronym for "hug"
02:54:32 <shachaf> but now i realize that "are" doesn't start with "u"
02:54:50 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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03:14:09 <Sgeo_> "The aim of right-shifting md_size is so that the compiler doesn't figure out that it can remove div_spoiler as that would require it to prove that md_size is always even, which I hope is beyond it. "
03:17:03 <zzo38> In what program is that?
03:18:43 <quintopia> so i just installed kubuntu onto a flash drive with portable virtualbox and it's running just fine in win10 host. what should i use it for?
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03:29:46 <zzo38> There seem to be a problem in aplay or something related to it; I get a message: Assertion 'pthread_mutex_destroy(&m->mutex) == 0' failed at pulsecore/mutex-posix.c:81, function pa_mutex_free(). Aborting.
03:30:35 <zzo38> This seems to happen only when I interrupt the program (by ^C) after it is already finished playing but before it stopped.
03:37:02 <zzo38> I think now they make LibreSSL though? Hopefully is better than OpenSSL
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03:56:15 <Sgeo_> zzo38, saner people are making LibreSSL
03:56:20 <Sgeo_> Not the OpenSSL people.
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04:05:30 <zgrep> Wasn't it OpenSSL person?
04:14:57 <HackEgo> hax0r/hax0r (see ¯\(°_o)/¯)
04:15:02 <HackEgo> primative/A primative is a reference to a value that you were robbed of.
04:30:30 <zzo38> They say it would be possible to write an entire book about TeX output routines.
04:35:05 <zzo38> It is probably true.
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06:18:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kishan Kumar * New user account
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06:38:59 <zzo38> There are simple things such as adding page numbers, although you can also do other things including: footnotes, multiple columns, vertically centering the text on each page, skipping pages, overlaying a grid onto the page, making pages looser than normal, marks for cutting the page, reverse the order of pages, and a lot more>
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07:50:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: and making full height double column pages by buffering two pages TeX sends to the output routine and emitting them only once.
07:50:13 <b_jonas> oh, you mentioned "multiple columns", yes
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08:59:09 <rdococ> yay got pidgin to work again
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09:18:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[0815]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44632&oldid=44595 * 178.8.154.25 * (+4)
09:19:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44633 * 178.8.154.25 * (+6836) Created page with "'''xEec ''' is an esoteric programming language designed and implemented by [[Paulo Jorente]] in October, 2015. ==Language details== '''xEec''' has a set of 9 instructions. ..."
09:23:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44634&oldid=44619 * Paulo Jorente * (+85)
09:25:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44635&oldid=44633 * Paulo Jorente * (-1) /* Fibonacci sequence */
09:29:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44636&oldid=44635 * Paulo Jorente * (+1) /* Language details */
09:29:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[0815]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44637&oldid=44632 * Paulo Jorente * (+0) /* Registers */
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09:34:11 <VictorCL> marcogmonteiro is an esoteric lover
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10:17:52 <myname> http://t.co/iX0WPeh2AB
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10:45:02 <lambdabot> LOWI 081020Z 13004KT 090V190 9999 FEW015 SCT040 BKN072 14/10 Q1019 NOSIG
10:50:23 <lambdabot> CYUL 081000Z 34008KT 15SM SKC 04/01 A3017 RMK SLP216
11:02:12 <int-e> I guess so, but at this temperature it's hardly a burden.
11:02:31 <int-e> (76% according to one website)
11:02:51 <lambdabot> EGLL 081050Z AUTO 24004KT 200V280 9999 NCD 15/09 Q1022 NOSIG
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11:07:05 <boily> y'all with your warm weathers...
11:07:25 <boily> AnotherTest: AnothellorTest. which was your closest weather station?
11:07:35 <lambdabot> ENVA 081050Z 16014KT CAVOK 10/M00 Q1021 TEMPO 16018G30KT RMK WIND 670FT 18022KT
11:08:02 <boily> @tell oerjan your negative cow is humid.
11:08:13 <lambdabot> KATL 081052Z 09003KT 10SM SCT250 17/14 A3012 RMK AO2 SLP195 T01670139
11:08:18 <lambdabot> KSFO 081056Z 00000KT 10SM SCT200 16/12 A3008 RMK AO2 SLP186 T01560122 $
11:09:02 <lambdabot> RKSI 081100Z 28013KT 240V310 9999 FEW030 BKN100 20/14 Q1011 NOSIG
11:10:33 <lambdabot> CYOW 081100Z 35006KT 15SM FEW250 03/01 A3020 RMK CI1 SLP229
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11:16:22 <mroman> Can't gdb just do function stepping?
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11:18:56 <int-e> mroman: doesn't 'n' do that?
11:19:51 <int-e> or 'ni' if you're on the instruction level (skip over calls)
11:20:44 <mroman> no, next stepts to the next source line
11:21:08 <int-e> I guess I don't know what you mean by function stepping
11:21:22 <mroman> break right after every call obviously
11:21:38 <mroman> I wanna trace what functions are called
11:23:17 <int-e> okay... I don't think so (except that, obviously, you can set breakpoints on all functions of interest)
11:24:00 <int-e> Then again I'm not a gdb expert.
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11:28:00 <mroman> and does objdump have a switch so it outputs the assembly only
11:28:03 <mroman> without addresses and raw bytes
11:28:48 <Jafet> Use the universal remote control, perl -e.
11:29:34 <Jafet> Hmm, a language based on tensile strengths
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13:52:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44638&oldid=44636 * 176.6.115.121 * (+144) /* xEec instructions set */
13:54:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44639&oldid=44638 * 176.6.115.121 * (+0) /* xEec instructions set */
13:59:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44640&oldid=44639 * 176.6.115.121 * (-42) /* xEec instructions set */
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14:21:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XEec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44641&oldid=44640 * 46.114.10.209 * (+78) /* Cat */
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16:43:53 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 35m 51s ago: your negative cow is humid.
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17:32:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Beam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44642&oldid=42097 * 69.193.26.210 * (+89) Added link to newer interpreter
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19:08:20 <izabera> \oren\: http://imgur.com/gallery/TWqZjnB add these
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19:35:48 <oerjan> is hackage slow as molasses for everyone
19:36:16 <Taneb> I've never seen any molasses
19:36:24 <Taneb> I don't even know how to pronounce the word
19:36:33 <Taneb> Is it molASSes? MOLasses?
19:36:44 <oerjan> i've been assuming the first
19:37:07 <Taneb> Well, it seems pretty speedy to me
19:37:29 <zzo38> How slow is molasses?
19:37:43 <Taneb> myname, I've been speaking English since I was very small, I know just how bad it is
19:38:03 <fizzie> Taneb: molASSes is kind of like how Google's TTS pronounced it to me.
19:46:26 <olsner> molasses is faster than people, when you have enough of it
19:47:25 <oerjan> Gregor: help HackEgo's repository browser page still redirects me to codu.org/ tdnh
19:48:01 <olsner> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Molasses_Flood)
19:50:15 <fizzie> oerjan: But how can that be.
19:50:38 <int-e> oerjan: that's only happening to you, I believe
19:53:16 <int-e> oerjan: does your client "correct" codu.org to www.codu.org?
19:53:45 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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19:54:55 <oerjan> int-e: i'm including the http:// part, so it shouldn't...
19:56:07 * oerjan tries adding www. to check if that changes anything
19:56:40 <zzo38> Did you try curl/wget/nc?
19:57:01 <int-e> oerjan: adding www. results in a redirect to the codu.org root for me, that's why I'm asking.
19:57:30 <oerjan> those would be on a different machine anyway
19:58:26 <int-e> interestingly, http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/ now seems to time out from here. isn't that fun...
19:58:34 <oerjan> curl _does_ redirect to codu.org/
19:59:24 <oerjan> on a completely different machine (still in trondheim, though)
19:59:52 <oerjan> i somehow pasted the version with www.
20:00:04 <int-e> let's see. "www.codu.org has address 109.68.33.18" "codu.org has address 64.62.173.65"
20:00:26 <oerjan> ok now it's just stalling
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20:03:09 <int-e> other repos like http://codu.org/projects/egobot/hg/ work... hmm.
20:04:12 <int-e> so is the fshg thing a kind of proxy setup to the hackego host?
20:04:34 <int-e> I mean it stopped working about the same time as hackego left the channel
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20:13:52 <lambdabot> ENVA 081950Z 08005KT 030V120 CAVOK 08/01 Q1022 RMK WIND 670FT 15011KT
20:16:01 <oerjan> @tell Jafet <Jafet> Hmm, a language based on tensile strengths <-- i think that's a bit of a stretch.
20:18:24 <int-e> the puns and punches are flying low today
20:18:46 <int-e> (though I guess I have no right to complain about the former)
20:18:56 <zzo38> Is there the DVI->Fax program that does not use PostScript? A mode file for METAFONT that is suitable for faxes should also be used.
20:19:23 <oerjan> i'm just happy boily didn't see it twnhh
20:20:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could render a DVI to a bitmap image, and then pass that bitmap image to a fax program
20:20:17 <b_jonas> fax transmits a bitmap image afterall, right?
20:20:50 * oerjan must. remember. to. eat.
20:20:54 <b_jonas> I don't know what resolution those things have
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20:21:26 <b_jonas> I mean, I keep hearing of all the bureaucratic institutions that require using fax, but luckily I don't generally communicate with those.
20:21:47 <int-e> b_jonas: That's how metafont enters the picture, it's how tex's fonts used to be rendered to bitmap fonts at various sizes and resolutions.
20:22:03 <oerjan> hm the logs weren't as big as they looked
20:22:26 <zzo38> DVI isn't so complicated so I might try to make up my own program if it is needed, too.
20:22:30 * int-e recalls setting up special 100? maybe even 50? dpi modes to save disk space for those cached bitmap fonts...
20:22:48 <int-e> (which were only used for viewing stuff on screen)
20:23:10 <zzo38> You can use PK fonts to save disk space too
20:24:25 <int-e> I suspect I did that as well
20:24:43 <b_jonas> int-e: I can see why you'd want metafont settings to make a suitable font,
20:25:07 <b_jonas> but why would you need a new program for rendering the DVI? couldn't any DVI to bitmap program work, if you tell it the right fonts and resolution?
20:26:51 <fizzie> int-e: Also I didn't notice HackEgo left the channel, it was working for me just a while ago.
20:27:17 <fizzie> int-e: By "yes" I mean, yes, the fshg URL is a reverse proxy setup to www2.codu.org, or something like that.
20:27:20 <int-e> 21:53:57 --- HackEgo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20:27:25 <int-e> 22:27:20 <int-e> 21:53:57 --- HackEgo has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
20:27:48 <fizzie> Well, a "while" can be long.
20:27:51 <int-e> (I'm too lazy to compute the difference myself ;-)
20:28:07 <zzo38> I also have a "HP LaserJet P1102w" printer so what METAFONT modes can be used for it, and then how to tell dvilj to use those settings?
20:28:42 <fizzie> All three of codu.org, www.codu.org and www2.codu.org resolve to different addresses.
20:29:00 <int-e> b_jonas: sorry, I didn't think enough about how much of the problem rendering to bitmaps would solve... my bad.
20:29:38 <fizzie> The last one is where HackEgo lives, and also the repository browser, in a strictly physical sense.
20:30:03 <fizzie> The machine isn't answering SSH, which probably means our wiki is also down.
20:31:15 <zzo38> Making DVI->fax might be useful if you go to a hotel and your portable computer does not have a printer built-in, you could connect it to the telephone line and then send a fax to the front desk.
20:31:23 <b_jonas> what resolution does fax have?
20:31:25 <int-e> Hmm, my CaC VM is still running. Oh well.
20:32:39 <fizzie> b_jonas: They've got different levels in different standards.
20:32:49 <fizzie> But the most basic one is 100dpi, I think.
20:33:20 <int-e> @googe fax resolutions
20:33:22 <lambdabot> http://support.faxbetter.com/knowledgebase/articles/44704-at-what-resolution-ppi-dpi-do-you-transmit-and
20:33:22 <lambdabot> Title: At what resolution (ppi, dpi) do you transmit and receive faxes? – Feedback...
20:33:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: wait, is it the same horizontal and vertical resolution?
20:33:57 <fizzie> Wikipedia seems to say 100x100dpi for "basic", 200x100 for "standard", 200x200 for "fine", 200x400 for "superfine", 400x400 for "ultrafine".
20:34:14 <fizzie> (That's horizontal x vertical.)
20:34:29 <b_jonas> ah, and apparently it's not a bitmap, but a graymap!
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20:35:14 <b_jonas> in that case, you need something other than metafont, because you want a 100 dpi _graymap_ font
20:35:56 <fizzie> The resolutions at that @googe result are close, but slightly different. (204x98 and so on.)
20:36:09 <zzo38> It is not really a problem; you can still use a bitmap font, I expect.
20:36:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can, but at 100 dpi, graymap font would look much better
20:36:41 <b_jonas> I mean, 100x100 dpi with not very large letters
20:36:48 <fizzie> Also I thought it was a bitmap? (Except for old-fashioned analog faxes.)
20:36:49 <zzo38> Even if you do want grayscales, METAFONT can write arbitrary specials to output as well.
20:36:55 <b_jonas> bitmap can still work, but graymap could work much better
20:37:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: I don't know. apparently there are way more different fax formats than I ever imagined
20:37:23 <b_jonas> like, including digitally compressed ones and stuff
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20:37:27 <fizzie> 'pedia: "Later, other compression techniques were added as options to ITU-T recommendation T.30, such as the more efficient JBIG (T.82, T.85) for bi-level content, and JPEG (T.81), T.43, MRC (T.44), and T.45 for grayscale, palette, and colour content."
20:37:29 <b_jonas> I thought there would be only one or two
20:37:36 <zzo38> You could then make higher resolution and then downscale them into graymap fonts
20:37:48 <fizzie> JPEG in a fax, what a crazy world.
20:38:13 <b_jonas> zzo38: perhaps yes, if you're enoguh of a metafont hacker to make them look nice
20:38:47 <zzo38> You could make it to output special commands to help with such purposes
20:42:17 <zzo38> But I think faxes can use bitmap formats too; that is what I read and heard everywhere?
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20:45:16 <zzo38> I had used ASCII PBM format for including pictures in documents with TeX, but ASCII PBM files are very large and the output will also be very large; I want to see if I can make up the shorter format.
20:45:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: probably, in which case metafont is fine if you can make the right font
20:45:55 <b_jonas> um, that's for bitmap faxes
20:46:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, use a font that contains each combination of eight pixels in a column?
20:46:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, the METAFONT documentation describes such a font encoding actually
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20:51:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: I was also thinking that you could show bitmap images in VGA text mode by loading such a font and setting the font height to 2 or 1 (depending on whether the video cards can handle height 1).
20:51:51 <zzo38> It is called "gray font" format, and is intended for printing out proof sheets of fonts. However you have to consider the printer's resolutions as they may be different by printers.
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20:54:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, you want a resolution supported by the printer exactly.
20:56:58 <zzo38> Yes, and then it is not device-independent. That is why I made the .PBM parser
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21:02:18 <fizzie> b_jonas: The best reference I know for VGA register programming -- http://www.osdever.net/FreeVGA/vga/vgatext.htm -- says "Fonts are either 8 or 9 pixels wide and can be from 1 to 32 pixels high."
21:03:11 <int-e> well, the 9 pixels is a bit of a lie.
21:04:14 <fizzie> But there's a hack to make characters 0xc0..0xdf copy their 8th column to the 9th column, so you get continuous horizontal lines.
21:04:39 <fizzie> (For the others it's always blank.)
21:05:19 <int-e> I didn't remember the precise range of characters.
21:06:46 <fizzie> You don't get contiguous "grayscale" blocks, but I guess it would look bad anyway, since you couldn't continue the pattern.
21:08:10 <fizzie> The dot matrix printer I had (have?... actually, where is that thing) has a "graphics" mode that is based on sending bytes that describe one column of 8 pixels.
21:08:25 <fizzie> Pretty much the same thing, except the font is 1 pixel wide and 8 pixels high.
21:08:36 <int-e> does it also have another mode where you send two bytes and drive a 9th needle?
21:09:00 <fizzie> I don't think it had that. You're supposed to just set the line advance parameters so that it lines up.
21:09:31 <fizzie> I don't think it was very accurate about that, so everything printed had a slight stripeyness in it.
21:11:09 <fizzie> Now that I think of it, I think the printer is in our basement in Finland. I remember having plans to hook it up with a stack of paper as a permanent IRC log printer, but it was just too inconvenient.
21:11:34 <int-e> I recall my family's dot matrix printer coming with a manual that described how to use its various modes (escape sequences... I believe even some code examples)
21:11:55 <fizzie> This had no manuals by the time I got it.
21:12:06 <int-e> Times have changed so much.
21:12:12 <fizzie> But it was semi-compatible with something-or-another, so I got by with internet and experimentation.
21:12:38 <fizzie> Probably ESC/P something.
21:16:32 <fizzie> Although I have a vague impression it could've been something less common. I can't write the related sources anywhere.
21:17:16 <zzo38> I have used ESC/P and if there is emulator could use it to convert ESC/P into DVI
21:22:15 <int-e> we had some citizen swift 9 pin printer
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21:55:13 <fizzie> I think I had a Huyndai.
21:55:38 <fizzie> Last I looked, I could even find a photo, but at the moment "hyundai dot matrix printer" image search just turns up matrix printers from all kinds of other manufacturers.
21:57:57 <fizzie> Logs suggest it looked a lot like Hyundai HDP-920 but might not have been exactly that model.
21:59:33 <fizzie> http://ru.pc-history.com/wp-content/uploads/prn_hyundahdp-920.JPG <- like that.
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22:16:42 <oerjan> yes! adding www2. worked
22:18:24 <olsner> incidentally, I'll be in france next week
22:18:33 <oerjan> the repository browser still has trouble with actually including stuff
22:18:39 <boily> . o O ( hickeg? häppåre? )
22:19:06 <oerjan> boily: i just efficientized by greeting HackEgo simultaneously hth
22:19:45 <olsner> boily: häppåre = hej på dig = "hi on you"
22:20:10 <boily> olsner: td swedishly h.
22:20:37 <oerjan> i think that swedish is somewhat spoken colloquial
22:21:12 <boily> ça m'surprend pas vraiment là là.
22:21:23 <olsner> it would sound really weird to try to speak written swedish
22:21:59 <HackEgo> monittaan viiniimpärit väistanila pyöräisemmassa käytyväksemme peräisi havaksisi verokaan elälläni soviinsa taktiivimma spekistä syrjistuenne afaattamme täytyvä venevittämäämme rinänneisissa kilisimmat paneutteettämmässä tekehnoimissi
22:22:21 <boily> olsner: apparently, this thing is sold at our Ikeas → http://www.ikea.com/us/en/images/products/smorgaskaviar-fish-roe-spread__0145842_PE304961_S4.JPG
22:22:44 <fizzie> The Ikeas here sell fish and chips.
22:22:47 <fizzie> I guess it makes sense.
22:22:53 <olsner> oh, hmm, "I think that swedish" or "I think *that* swedish" changes the meaning of what oerjan said, not sure which was meant
22:22:56 <fizzie> I just got the meatballs.
22:24:01 <olsner> boily: I thought they sold kalles kaviar, but apparently they replaced that with ikea-brand kaviar
22:24:01 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/devious
22:24:04 <HackEgo> int-e int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf
22:24:19 <fizzie> Also, they've got veggie balls, but maybe that's a more global new thing.
22:25:04 <fizzie> "Now there’s a ball for everyone"
22:25:05 <boily> olsner: wouldn't know. I only tasted that thing for the first time last week, and the packaging was completely different.
22:25:14 * oerjan has some kaviar in the fridge
22:25:24 <boily> HERESY! a meatball has MEAT!
22:25:30 <olsner> boily: what did you think about kaviar then?
22:25:39 <oerjan> not that brand, though.
22:25:41 <boily> olsner: very good! loved it!
22:26:00 <fizzie> boily: A metaball has metadata.
22:26:56 <boily> metaball... hmm... a Swedish turducken?
22:27:16 <oerjan> I,I "i didn't know fish had balls"
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22:27:27 <fizzie> There was some sort of a thing about the Finnish ads or packaging or something of Kalles kaviar ("Kallen mätitahna").
22:27:52 <fizzie> Like, they had cropped a image in a humorously interpretable way, or something.
22:28:09 <olsner> boily: boiled egg with kaviar is nice too
22:29:36 <olsner> or sandwich with sliced boiled egg and kaviar on top
22:36:18 <olsner> is the kaviar expensive over there?
22:40:15 <olsner> hm, I have no idea how much kalles costs here though, so I wouldn't be able to tell if it was expensive anyway
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22:42:49 <fizzie> Ikea SMÖRGÅSKAVIAR is £1.25/0.19 kg in the UK catalog.
22:43:00 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen the real one here.
22:43:27 <boily> it's CAD 2.49 + 15% tax per 0.419 lb.
22:43:42 <fizzie> There's a place called http://nordicbakery.com/ in London we've been thinking of visiting.
22:45:56 <fizzie> Also! The Ikea KANELBULLAR are rolled completely the wrong way, from the Finnish perspective.
22:46:41 <fizzie> They look like https://krausnickitchen.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/img_4711.jpg when they should look like http://40.media.tumblr.com/9229b5efa370474bc9994224799372e5/tumblr_mg5x9ok8eD1rog7oso1_500.jpg
22:47:05 <fizzie> I have to admit it doesn't affect the taste very much, but it still feels wrong.
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23:29:54 <\oren\> I've now noticed that some of my kanji don't line up
23:30:10 <\oren\> I'm gonna try to fix it
23:31:26 <boily> there's a kanjing lining to every font in the cloud.
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23:43:15 <HackEgo> bdsm/BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
23:43:23 <HackEgo> lorem ipsum/Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO
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23:45:13 <olsner> fizzie: finland is doing it wrong, not ikea
23:45:44 <olsner> those finnish ones look like over-sized gifflar
23:47:28 <olsner> (e.g. https://d1vlhxry9oul9s.cloudfront.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/pagen_gifflar_cinnamon.jpg)
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00:01:40 <fizzie> They sell gifflar in Finland.
00:01:46 <fizzie> I don't think they're very good.
00:02:29 <fizzie> Although the blueberry ones had a certain something.
00:11:25 <shachaf> fizzie: Do you know anything about acquiring cloudberry liqueur in the US?
00:11:37 <shachaf> I guess it would be silly to expect you to.
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00:12:34 <doesthiswork> have you fold seen chesh yet (randomly generated chess variant) http://mightyvision.blogspot.com/2015/10/chesh.html
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00:22:42 <\oren\> I should name my font something better
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00:29:36 <\oren\> Apparently it lines up in firefox but not chrome. greaaat
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00:30:16 <\oren\> connection reset by the NSA
00:30:52 <\oren\> connection reset by Jeff Bezos
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00:34:43 <boily> my machine just froze. music still playing, but no mouse input nor keyboard input.
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00:35:44 <boily> but! even though Ctrl-Alt-Del did nothing, and Ctrl-Alt-Backspace was useless, I remembered the magic Alt-SysRq sequence. glad to see Ubuntu doesn't disable the NUCLEAR CODES!
00:35:47 <boily> izabera: rebooted.
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01:01:19 <fizzie> shachaf: All I know is that there's the https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/P-3248.aspx brand and they seem to have a lot of sellers in the nets.
01:01:39 <shachaf> fizzie: But they charge $50 or $100 or something for delivery to the US.
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01:06:33 <fizzie> Well, that's just one of them. But yes, it seems.
01:07:03 <shachaf> I didn't find anything better.
01:07:17 <shachaf> Apparently it used to be available in Canada, but I can't find it now.
01:08:41 <fizzie> Weird. The UK prices didn't seem that bad.
01:08:56 <boily> shachaf: do you have a specific brand and/or name?
01:09:58 <shachaf> Someone said something about Toronto Center LCBO.
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01:13:57 <boily> http://www.saq.com/page/fr/saqcom/liqueur-de-fruit/chicoutai/330621 ? even if it mentions "airelles", according to http://www.saveurscanada.com/Liqueur-de-Mure-des-Marais-Chicoutai-p-412-c-10_182.html it's from "chicouté" which are cloudberries.
01:14:37 <boily> (heh. 25,45$ is much cheaper than 25,95 Eur.)
01:14:49 <boily> shachaf: you want to get shipped some?
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01:17:41 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether I actually want some. I don't really do the alcohol thing, typically.
01:17:50 <shachaf> But maybe I should try it. And I know some people who might be interested.
01:18:00 <shachaf> I was hoping for the Finnish variety but this is possible also.
01:18:24 <boily> Québec and Finland are practically the same place.
01:19:10 <shachaf> Québec and Foxtrot are practically the same word.
01:20:13 <boily> Quesadilla and Foxtrot are practically the same dance.
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01:23:09 <boily> `le/rn Québec/Attache ta tuque avec d'la broche; y fait frette icitte!
01:25:23 <boily> `le/rn quebec/Attache ta tuque with the spindle; there is around here fret!
01:25:38 <boily> (ah, google, never stop being you.)
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01:40:53 <boily> speaking of being frette, time to add a layer of indirection to my bedsheets.
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01:42:20 <izabera> http://json.org/ what software did they use to produce the pictures?
01:50:09 <zzo38> SQLite documentation has some similar pictures and their FAQ tells the program they used; these are a bit different but they are similar.
02:01:06 <zzo38> I have also made a library for using JSON with SQL
02:03:52 <izabera> what does it do? does it take a json file and somehow convert it to a sql table?
02:06:53 <zzo38> Actually reads it in as a virtual table; you can easily transfer the contents of a virtual table into a real table though.
02:07:50 <zzo38> (Alternatively, you can transfer the contents of the virtual table into a view, and then attach triggers to the view that will convert the data into the schema you require.)
02:13:03 <deltab> izabera: they're called railroad diagrams or syntax diagrams: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syntax_diagram
02:13:24 <izabera> i see, they used that name in the sqlite docs
02:13:40 <deltab> http://www.sqlite.org/docsrc/finfo?name=art/syntax/bubble-generator.tcl
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02:14:20 <deltab> http://bottlecaps.de/rr/ui
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03:33:25 <HackEgo> olist 1008: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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03:40:29 <Sgeo_> Hmm my order of the stick automatic hasn't gone off
03:55:10 <\oren\> AAQAAAAAUASUSDUASUFSAUDFAUSDFUGHHHHH
03:55:27 <\oren\> Theres' one pixel wrong in one character in my font
03:55:48 <\oren\> this stray pixel is messing up the width of the whole font
03:58:43 <\oren\> there are like 5000 charatcers here, and I didn't notice this before so I don't even know when I added the character with the stray pixel
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04:25:04 <zgrep> \oren\: How do you know that there's a pixel wrong?
04:25:42 <\oren\> because the font is showing up as 10 px wide when it should be 9 px
04:28:55 <\oren\> by elimination, I've determined that one of the kana or bopomofo characters must be too wide
04:30:36 <\oren\> Now I know it's one of the bopomofo characters
04:31:59 <zgrep> How are the characters stored
04:32:12 <zgrep> As in, is it possible to iterate somehow over each character and check the width? :P
04:35:29 <\oren\> it's a BDF, and although I could probably parse that in Perl, i can't be assed to do it
04:37:31 <zgrep> \oren\: So... get the line with the hex value that's greater than 111111111, if I misunderstand incorrectly?
04:45:00 <\oren\> no. the problem is with a CJK character with a width greateer than 18 pixels
04:45:25 <zgrep> Ah, I misunderstood correctly. :(
04:46:14 <\oren\> but yeah looking for a character with a number like ffffc0 could work
04:46:44 <izabera> what does it mean to misunderstand correctly/incorrectly?
04:46:49 <zgrep> I misunderstood partially correctly! :D
04:47:05 <zgrep> izabera: Shift the negative over to the next word, and two negatives cancel out.
04:47:18 <izabera> well ok but that's pointlessly confusing
04:47:39 <\oren\> I'll try that if i can't solve it my current way
04:52:13 <\oren\> I've narrowed it down to one of six characters
04:52:59 <\oren\> one of the six characters ㄋㄌㄍㄎㄏㄐ is an asshole
04:53:23 <\oren\> and is ruining everything
04:56:22 <zgrep> I'd say that 6 characters is narrow enough to check to see if there's a number like ffffc0.
05:00:49 <\oren\> except... I can't see anything wrong with it!?@!?!@?@
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05:04:38 <\oren\> ah fuck it I'll figure this out on the weekend
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05:45:52 <zzo38> I think the ruling for "Orator of Ojutai" is misplaced; it clearly says "if you revealed a Dragon card as you cast ~", so nobody would have cast the copy.
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06:16:36 <izabera> ok so there's this game i play with wine and when you're a team it's beneficial to have your players enter the battle in a given order
06:16:51 <izabera> healer first then tank then buffer then hammer, ideally
06:17:29 <izabera> the server sends asks the client "are you ready" and the client replies "i sure am" and you join the battle
06:17:48 <izabera> and on windows there's this trick: when you drag the window the game freezes
06:18:20 <izabera> so the hammer can enter the battle in the right position
06:18:28 <izabera> and it doesn't work on wine :(
06:18:40 <izabera> the game doesn't freeze...
06:22:51 <\oren\> you could hook up a thing to send a SIGSTOP and SIGCONT to the game
06:23:32 <Gaswafers> Does anyone here mess around with Golly?
06:23:39 <izabera> \oren\: yeah but why do i have to :C
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07:18:15 <zzo38> Yes, then you can do it even without dragging the window
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07:40:05 <mroman> I had an idea for a non-stack based concatenative language
07:40:09 <mroman> http://codepad.org/Au5IJN1N
07:42:23 <mroman> ls will turn into (ls) and is then fed to both sum and length
07:42:51 <mroman> which results in (sumOfLs,lenOfLs) and is then fed to div
07:45:54 <mroman> (technically internally you might as well use a stack)
07:46:07 <mroman> but you won't be bothered with dup instructions
07:46:23 <zzo38> I have idea which is Magic: the Gathering cards that would ask for "devotion to Phyrexian"
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07:50:23 <Gaswafers> Also, I really hate things with such narrow effects.
07:51:00 <zzo38> Well, it is similar to Rage Extractor kind of, but not quite
07:52:08 <Gaswafers> If you want to do something nice, try to figure out what mechanic could be an evergreen keyword for blue+black
07:52:22 <Gaswafers> Because that is the only color combination that has no shared evergreen keyword.
07:52:53 <zzo38> I do not hate such narrow effects, although it would be possible to use narrow effect on a card that does other thing too
07:54:09 <Gaswafers> But is there really a good reason to not just use normal devotion?
07:54:17 <zzo38> Anyways my favourite format is Magic: the Puzzling
07:56:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: "<fizzie> b_jonas: The best reference I know for VGA register programming [...] says "Fonts are either 8 or 9 pixels wide and can be from 1 to 32 pixels high."" -- that's the theory, yes, but you need the card to actually be able to handle it. you need the card to be able to address enough of the video RAM for text mode, plus VGA cards are sometimes unstable in text mode at high clock frequencies that they easily handle in graphics mode.
07:56:38 <b_jonas> because high-res high-frequency text mode is simply not the priority.
07:56:56 <b_jonas> but yes, single line text mode will _probably_ work. I just have never tested it.
07:57:02 <zzo38> This book says mark's favorite rosewater card is Sorrow's Path.
08:06:59 <shachaf> Gaswafers: If "mill" was a keyword, I suppose it would be a blue-black keyword?
08:07:15 <Gaswafers> Well I kind of try to apply roguelike design to mtg
08:07:42 <Gaswafers> Every hates UB being the color of lolmill
08:08:12 <Gaswafers> Because it can't be viable in 60+ card formats
08:12:24 <zzo38> I wanted to have "Fateseal 2 and then target opponent draws a card."
08:13:05 <zzo38> (or even if it is just fateseal 1)
08:14:48 <zzo38> I would buy all of the books of Magic: the Puzzling if they printed any more such book!
08:18:54 <shachaf> zzo38: I gave one of your puzzles to someone.
08:19:38 <shachaf> They said it doesn't even have a question. It's all statements.
08:19:59 <shachaf> But assuming they have to win, they call a judge and say their opponent has an illegal deck.
08:20:55 <zzo38> shachaf: The format isn't Constructed, so it is OK
08:21:19 <zzo38> (It could be Cube, for example)
08:23:12 <zzo38> But that isn't important; the actual format is Puzzle.
08:24:28 <zzo38> But you are correct it doesn't even have a question; but one isn't needed as it is the default if not otherwise specified.
08:25:14 <zzo38> Can you figure out this puzzle though?
08:26:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, M:tG puzzles have complicated conventions about default assumptions like Chess puzzles, where you first have to solve another problem, and if you can prove it has no solution, then the question is the other default one?
08:27:59 <zzo38> b_jonas: There is only one though
08:28:17 <zzo38> As far as I know there is no "other default one"
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09:02:05 <zzo38> Maybe they should print a "Puzzlement" set, that is mainly for puzzling and secondly for playing game (it could be in Limited formats only if needed)
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09:22:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure that would be a good idea.
09:23:15 <b_jonas> I mean, you admire the puzzles because they're built in a game from cards that weren't specifically designed for puzzles.
09:23:52 <b_jonas> Eg. if you added cards that were specifically designed to facilitate computations, then it wouldn't be so interesting that you can perform Turing-complete computations.
09:24:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: Also, if you had cards that are mostly used for puzzles, why would you _print_ them. Would you buy physical cards just because they are useful for a puzzle?
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09:36:36 <b_jonas> Is there a language where the main flow control feature is a try{} block and division by zero (or some other arithmetical error) throwing an exception?
09:37:01 <b_jonas> I've used throwing division by zero in a perl obfu.
09:37:14 <mroman> 0, 9) -> range ~> [ :9 -> range ] ~> [ ~> +1 ] would then be somewhan like map (\ls -> map (\d -> succ d)) $ (map (\c -> range c 9) range 0 9)
09:37:28 <b_jonas> It isn't hard to use consistently: just put whatever condition you want to check in a divisor.
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09:39:06 <mroman> (all functions take only one argument, and that argument is a tupel)
09:39:19 <mroman> (or tripple depending on how many "arguments" it has)
09:40:47 <mroman> (OT: ROPgadget is a really nice tool)
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09:44:52 <mroman> It could automate a little bit more though.
09:45:45 <mroman> Like "I want a chain of memcpy calls to get the string 'foo' at location 0xbar"
09:45:54 <mroman> and then it would produce the neccesarry ROP chain
09:48:01 <mroman> but with a little shell trickery, cut and tail and some python code I should be able to do that myself \o/
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11:43:42 <HackEgo> JohnLennon: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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12:34:17 <b_jonas> Is there an Oracle and Rules update bulletin for BFZ yet?
12:36:19 <ais523> b_jonas: no, Matt Tabak's late in writing it
12:36:26 <ais523> (at least no last time I checked)
12:36:55 <ais523> b_jonas: http://tabakrules.tumblr.com/post/130479250034/dear-lord-tabak-do-you-know-if-the-battle-for
12:53:40 <mroman> Is there a tool that shows you the address of the BSS section?
12:54:03 <b_jonas> mroman: do you mean from an ELF file, or from a running process?
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13:04:45 <fizzie> objdump -j .bss -h for the former.
13:05:00 <fizzie> Maybe even "objdump -j bss -h /proc/pid/exe" for the latter.
13:05:09 <fizzie> (Add the missing dot.)
13:05:18 <HackEgo> U+310B BOPOMOFO LETTER N \ UTF-8: e3 84 8b UTF-16BE: 310b Decimal: ㄋ \ ㄋ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
13:14:09 <Deewiant> fizzie: What if the executable is overwritten and /proc/pid/exe is no longer valid?
13:15:01 <ais523> Deewiant: I don't think that situation can happen
13:15:13 <ais523> IIRC attempts to overwrite an executable while it's running fail with ETXTBUSY
13:15:48 <ais523> Deewiant: I was just thinking "unless the filesystem is mounted in multiple places"
13:16:12 <ais523> the solution to this is "assume this program doesn't work over NFS, because a bunch of standard UNIX functionality doesn't work over NFS"
13:18:34 <b_jonas> The process could unmap its bss segment later though, but few processes will do that, because that would wreck libc.
13:24:32 <fizzie> You can certainly have deleted the executable, though.
13:24:38 <fizzie> $ ls -l /proc/3820/exe
13:24:38 <fizzie> lrwxrwxrwx 1 fis fis 0 Oct 9 14:24 /proc/3820/exe -> /home/fis/tmp/tmp2
13:24:45 <fizzie> $ ls -l /proc/3820/exe
13:24:45 <fizzie> lrwxrwxrwx 1 fis fis 0 Oct 9 14:24 /proc/3820/exe -> /home/fis/tmp/tmp2 (deleted)
13:25:05 <fizzie> That symlink's not going to be very useful.
13:25:31 <ais523> fizzie: except that if you try to read the symlink contents via opening the symlink (rather than via readlinking)
13:25:41 <ais523> /proc doesn't obey normal filesystem rules
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13:59:16 <Taneb> Help I'm getting better at magic
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14:18:02 <fizzie> Taneb: ": the Gathering", or the other kind?
14:18:41 <Taneb> Just had a game where in the penultimate turn I had 2 life and my opponent 1
14:18:49 <Taneb> (commander, 2-player)
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15:09:10 <Taneb> Are all derivative cycles (like sin x -> cos x -> -sin x -> cos x) made up of functions that can be expressed in terms of e?
15:09:18 <Taneb> I have the feeling that I used to know this
15:09:29 <Taneb> In fact, I used to know how to construct these functions
15:16:10 <FreeFull> I'd tell you if I knew complex analysis
15:16:35 <FreeFull> I can't think of any cycles like that that don't involve e though
15:17:10 <Taneb> All 1, 2, and 4 cycles definitely do
15:17:17 <FreeFull> That's counting 0 -> 0 -> 0 as 0*e
15:18:10 <oerjan> Taneb: yes, for n steps you have linear combinations of e^(r x) where r is an nth root of unity
15:20:09 <Taneb> In other news, I am completely lost in this linear optimization problem
15:20:14 <Taneb> (my question was irrelevant to that(
15:20:46 <oerjan> i hear the simplex algorithm is the thing
15:21:35 <Taneb> I also here the Langrangian sufficiency theorem might be a thing
15:21:49 <oerjan> on that i'm pretty blank
15:22:15 <Taneb> So am I and I'm watching the lecturer do a proof of it
15:22:21 <oerjan> no scratch that. on that i'm entirely, totally blank. although i recognize the name "Lagrange".
15:22:41 <Taneb> It's a ZZ Top song
15:23:59 <oerjan> hm i shall remain blank as wikipedia has no article
15:26:40 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lagrange_multiplier I think
15:29:25 <Taneb> Chapter 2: Hyperplanes and convexity
15:30:24 <oerjan> that sounds a bit more familiar
15:30:50 <oerjan> although i'm going to guess the context is different
15:31:36 <oerjan> or maybe not; this is about maximizing functionals
15:31:38 <Taneb> I have no idea what is going on now
15:32:31 <oerjan> is it pointing out that functionals are always maximized at the extreme points of a convex set twh
15:34:00 <oerjan> the extreme points being those that are not between any two other. oh and the set must be compact
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15:35:52 <oerjan> aka closed and bounded, if in R^n
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15:41:59 <ais523> b_jonas: so on the subject of M:tG, there's a quiz on the official website that asks what the second-most-printed basic land is
15:42:10 <ais523> their answer is Island, because it was a rare in Alpha
15:42:23 <ais523> but mine is Plains, beacuse it was a prerelease promo a while back
15:42:30 <ais523> (actually that might make Plains the most-printed basic)
15:42:35 <ais523> any way to tell who's correct?
15:42:50 <oerjan> wouldn't that make Alpha no. 3 at least
15:43:03 * oerjan just quibbling on the maths
15:43:55 <ais523> oerjan: most likely yes
15:44:37 <oerjan> if most cards of that type are printed almost the exact same amount, it might be impossible to answer
15:44:54 <ais523> oerjan: indeed, that's the situation
15:44:58 <ais523> they're nearly always printed as a set of five
15:45:17 <ais523> so the debate's about which of the times they aren't printed will be most common
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15:46:24 <oerjan> Island seems unlikely unless the set of five thing is entirely exact otherwise
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15:47:20 <Taneb> ais523: wouldn't that reasoning make islands the least common?
15:47:34 <ais523> Taneb: no, the rare was separate from the normal set of five
15:47:48 <ais523> as in, all five were printed at land rarity, and island was also printed at rare rarity
15:47:56 <Taneb> So it could be second-most, BECAUSE plains are the most
15:48:35 <oerjan> ok i interpreted ais523 as saying it was printed less than the others, but if that wasn't the case then indeed it makes sense
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15:49:21 <ais523> Taneb: well Arabian Nights had Mountain as a common, IIRC, due to a mix-up
15:49:27 <ais523> and it was more printed than Alpha
15:50:16 <ais523> but I think /this/ Plains, which wasn't part of a set of five, is probably the most common: http://magiccards.info/query?q=Plains+e%3Aptc%2Fen&v=card&s=cname
15:50:21 <ais523> now I'm trying to find out how much it costs
15:51:08 <ais523> but it's a pain to search for a specific version of Plains, it's one of the most printed cards there is
15:51:10 <ais523> (possibly the most printed, full stop)
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15:54:00 <ais523> <ais523> aha, here we go: http://sales.starcitygames.com/carddisplay.php?product=447001 puts it at $0.99
15:54:13 <ais523> Arabian Nights Mountain is $0.49, which is cheaper, so maybe it's more common?
15:55:53 <ais523> with Alpha Island, the rares and land-rarity ones are indistinguishable, but they're $8.99 or $9.99, so almost certainly way rarer than prerelease Plains even if you count the land-rarity ones
15:56:01 <ais523> I'm going to email Wizards and see what they say
16:00:28 <ais523> I wonder what their reaction to this one will be
16:00:59 <ais523> they already had to correct one answer on their quiz…
16:02:30 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know. Aren't there also a ton of basic lands in theme decks, which could skew the balance?
16:02:53 <ais523> b_jonas: oh yes, that's a very good point
16:03:04 <b_jonas> I mean, they might matter way omre than Alpha rares, because there's very few of those.
16:03:05 <ais523> those would approximately average out over time, but not exactly
16:03:17 <b_jonas> And not only because they got physically destroyed since.
16:04:04 <b_jonas> ais523: cheaper doesn't necessarily mean it's more common, obviousyl.
16:04:13 <ais523> indeed, especially as one is foil and the other isnt
16:04:26 <ais523> I was hoping there'd be an orders-of-magnitude difference that would make it clear
16:04:54 <b_jonas> Luckily the least printed basic land is obvious, it's Snow-Covered Plains, because the other four Snow-Covered Lands have 11 or 12 copies in theme decks.
16:05:16 <b_jonas> Snow-Covered Plains only appears as bonus foil card in them, in at most one copy.
16:05:33 <b_jonas> I mean Coldsnap theme decks
16:08:19 <ais523> were there Ice Age theme decks?
16:09:19 <b_jonas> ais523: check https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Magic:_The_Gathering_theme_decks , it has links to all theme decks
16:38:29 <b_jonas> Do you like C++? Fix the definition here so it defines the function template of the template class declared above, so that MSVC doesn't give an error on it. (I don't know the solution.) http://rextester.com/QLYH75926
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16:58:30 <b_jonas> Simplified test case: http://rextester.com/SXCU54811
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17:13:21 <b_jonas> I think I found a solution: http://rextester.com/LFOCUU82982
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17:44:04 <ais523> oh wow, a collision's been found in SHA-1's compression function
17:44:20 <ais523> there's no known way to find SHA-1 collisions using /just/ that information, but it's become way easier now
17:44:41 <ais523> (the researchers who found it think that an SHA-1 collision will be found within a couple of months0
17:45:44 <Taneb> I really need to learn how to take notes
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18:02:51 <hppavilion[1]> We have mathematical computers (Turing Machines), quantum physics computers (Quantum Computers), electrical engineering computers (Computers), chemical computers, etc.
18:06:08 <hppavilion[1]> Put a bunch of people in a box, do math by giving them money and seeing what happens
18:11:11 <ais523> at this point it's not safe to believe that SHA-1 has any level of security, because whoever breaks it first might not make that public
18:17:35 <ais523> a computer wouldn't be able to interpret it
18:17:38 <ais523> without big advances in AI
18:18:46 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It's sort of like OO, but it's SO. Objects aren't precieved as the same for all other objects
18:19:36 <shachaf> ais523: This is only about collisions, isn't it?
18:19:57 <shachaf> No known issues with pre-image attacks.
18:20:07 <ais523> in general, if a hash function is broken in one respect, people don't trust it in other respects either
18:20:19 <ais523> but I read the paper, the techniques they're using have no relevance in pre-image attacks
18:20:34 <ais523> they're basically about optimizing SHA brute-forcing down to the extent that it can be run in practice
18:20:50 <shachaf> Should git etc. stop using SHA-1?
18:21:00 <shachaf> (Probably, but should it be considered urgent?)
18:21:08 <ais523> via recognising patterns in the input that are particularly likely to form collisions and concentrating their brute-forcing on those
18:21:24 <ais523> StackOverflow's opinion on git and SHA-1 collisions seems to be that the damage you could do with an intentional collision would be limited
18:23:08 <hppavilion[1]> I just created this page: http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Hppavilion1/Language_Derivative_Hierarchy
18:23:20 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone wants to add anything, they can feel free to
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18:31:29 <fizzie> It's not down, just `ping
18:32:05 <fizzie> The Wiki-to-IRC bridge might be, though.
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18:32:21 <fizzie> It's p. flaky, it's a shell oneliner that nothing starts automatically. I've never really "productionized" it.
18:33:01 <shachaf> oh boy fizzie you're starting to talk like them
18:34:04 <fizzie> I know, that's why I put it in quotes.
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19:17:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: The reason you would print them is because they are not designed only for puzzle; they can be done play game too, to be design to play Limited formats and are not too much "puzzle only" game. Rather just some kind of narrow effect like many of old cards have strange stuff, so could be use in other game too (including Constructed); an example given in the introduction of this book is "Sorrow's Path"; it can be use in game too.
19:20:36 <hppavilion[2]> What should I do for my next dialect of WalScript...
19:24:13 <hppavilion[2]> I've done a basic language, an actually good language, and have a badly-done OO language
19:24:27 <hppavilion[2]> I also tried out WalFunc, but functional programming is /hard/
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19:27:08 <zzo38> Let me to see and then I can see if I can answer it or not
19:29:14 <hppavilion[1]> Here's the first version, and the only one that I have yet bothered to document: https://github.com/hppavilion1/WalScript-Alpha
19:29:33 <zzo38> That is the only one I saw already
19:30:37 <hppavilion[1]> WalScript-1.0 adds var=func}with}args}; syntax and python-based libraries, and OO-WalScript is being saved for later on
19:31:01 <hppavilion[1]> But those're the only major new features I can remember for 1.0
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21:23:00 <ais523> well, Wizards seem to have forwarded it to the appropriate department, and have let me know with a form letter that's effectively saying that in about six paragraphs
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21:31:18 <ais523> shachaf: my complaint about their lands quiz not taking Dragon's Maze prerelease promo Plains into account
21:31:46 <ais523> although it really doesn't surprise me that Wizards is setting quizzes with incorrect answers, it's a pretty complex game
21:31:52 <ais523> (they've already had to correct one answer)
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22:23:33 <oerjan> gah this was an overly interesting experience. microsoft installed (after prompting) a graphics update from intel - which then promptly made all of my screen black except for the mouse pointer
22:24:02 <oerjan> also, i have a while ago disabled the power off button because i keep hitting it by accident.
22:25:08 <oerjan> a reboot fixed it, but finding out where to click to get all programs shut down orderly (well, i hope it was orderly) and then reboot...
22:26:39 <oerjan> now let's see if at least the browser remembered my tabs
22:29:41 <oerjan> there are probably some keyboard shortcuts i should know to make this easier (the only ones i used were ctrl-alt-del and alt-f4)
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22:31:47 <zzo38> You should learn the keyboard commands; they tend to not change with different version of Windows. You could try WIN+U which opens the accessibility controls including narrator, so you could use that, maybe
22:32:22 <oerjan> ok vim session looks fine, no complaints about aborted edits
22:33:49 <oerjan> oh wait, i used the modifier+tab shortcuts. i'm just not sure if i remembered them right.
22:34:04 <zzo38> But knowing the keyboard command help a lot more too; even if they changed around the GUI entirely in newer versions of Windows, nearly all of the same keyboard commands still work, so it is still easy to figure out how to use it just as much as the old version. Same for cmd.exe it can also be found and use in newer versions just as well.
22:35:49 <\oren\> Wait a sec. Am I the only one who interchangeably referred to "red energy" and "fire mana"
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22:36:24 <zzo38> \oren\: I don't know? Probably other people might have done sometimes?
22:36:38 <\oren\> Hmm maybe only people who migrated from pokemon cards do that...
22:37:20 <zzo38> I play Pokemon card too, but don't do such confusion
22:39:59 <\oren\> Fire mana, water mana, grass mana, light mana, poison mana,
22:44:22 <\oren\> Actually wait, I think I used to call them sun mana and skull mana
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22:50:39 <zzo38> Are there official cards with a reusable proliferate effect?
22:51:20 <zzo38> Ah, yes, "Contagion Clasp" is
22:54:33 <zzo38> You can use any kind of counters with proliferate, so it would also include age counters, +1/+1 counters, and time counters.
22:56:33 <zzo38> And then you can use Hex Parasite to remove counters.
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23:14:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44654 * Flawr * (+1452) Created page with "''ShadyAsFuck'' is a language develped by PPCG users VTCAKAVSMoACE and flawr in the night from October 9th to October 10th 2015. It is substitution encoding of BrainFuck. But ..."
23:16:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Heh, my wife had the exact same issue.
23:16:58 <fizzie> oerjan: We didn't even try to shut it down orderly, though.
23:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44655&oldid=44654 * Flawr * (+0)
23:17:42 <fizzie> (It's a Thinkpad something-or-other.)
23:18:54 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:20:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * VTCAKAVSMoACE * New user account
23:23:09 <oerjan> fizzie: i guess it was the same update too, if it happened today (i have an asus)
23:25:25 <oerjan> oh and the update failed to install automatically, otherwise i wouldn't have been prompted
23:26:17 <oerjan> it was a rare update that _didn't_ just request a reboot to install, and see how well _that_ worked.
23:26:40 <oerjan> ...i suppose there may have been others that did and never said anything
23:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44656&oldid=44655 * Flawr * (+878)
23:28:54 <oerjan> if it's widespread enough, maybe there'll be some news about it
23:29:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44657&oldid=44656 * Flawr * (+48)
23:29:48 <\oren\> This is the most retarded...
23:30:07 <\oren\> I figured out why my font was being displayed too wide
23:32:00 <fizzie> oerjan: Yes, it sounds very similar.
23:33:37 <\oren\> Windows terminals use the xAvgCharWidth variable from the OS/2 table as the width of a font
23:34:06 <\oren\> That value is calculated by fontforge as the average width of all characters
23:34:47 <\oren\> Which means that if your font contains too many wide characters, suddenly the width of the whole font goes up by one pixel
23:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44658&oldid=44657 * Flawr * (-54)
23:35:24 <\oren\> So now my deploy instructions contain: Use a hex editor to fix the retarded table
23:36:17 <\oren\> Font forge does not have an option to set this value manually, so I have to fix it with a fucking hex editor. AUGHH
23:36:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44659&oldid=44658 * Flawr * (+37)
23:37:15 <zzo38> Or try to make up another program that will do it automatically
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23:43:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44660&oldid=44659 * 50.170.122.255 * (+12)
23:44:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44661&oldid=44660 * Flawr * (-12)
23:47:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44662&oldid=44661 * Flawr * (+18)
23:54:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44663&oldid=44662 * Flawr * (+2)
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00:20:42 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/XEec claims to be TC, but the proof is pretty dubious
00:22:36 <adu> hppavilion[1]!
00:22:57 <adu> how goes Dr. Hedwig Notta?
00:23:13 <adu> sorry, MetaDr. Hedwig Notta
00:37:48 <\oren\> it should be TC given that you can use 'r' toi rotate one way 'tp' to rotate other way
00:38:43 <\oren\> these can simulkate a tape
01:01:29 <adu> I thought it was 2025+Sqrt(-2)
01:02:08 <adu> but either way, that's impossible to map to our linear timeline
01:03:25 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to know the solution to the halting problem for hypercomputers
01:03:56 <hppavilion[1]> Bascially, is there an abstract super-turing machine that can solve a TM's halting problem AND its own?
01:05:03 <zzo38> I think it is impossible, but, I don't know?
01:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44664&oldid=44663 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+133)
01:12:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the proof of the halting theorem only assumes that you can compose programs in certain ways, and absolutely nothing about the computational power of those programs otherwise. so the only possible loophole for a machine that can solve its own halting problem is that it does not have sufficiently composable programs.
01:12:47 <oerjan> *halting problem theorem
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01:27:19 <zzo38> I think it to be remarkable that Infocom designed the Z-machine in such a way that many strange kinds of optimizations are possible that they never used.
01:31:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Numbers]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44665 * Hppavilion1 * (+391) Initialized Page
01:33:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44666&oldid=44023 * Hppavilion1 * (+129) /* Mathematics */ SURCOMPLEXES
01:35:42 <zzo38> One trick I use in TeX is that if \xyzzy macro is a loop then you can exit the loop by typing {\let\xyzzy} but how common is this?
01:37:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'd like to point out that all your case are belong to me and will be corrected as i crawl out of the wiki backlog hth
01:38:03 <oerjan> this may, admittedly, take a while.
01:39:00 <oerjan> (upper case in words other than the first is for proper nouns hth)
01:39:37 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to define the Surcomplex numbers, of the form {L0|R0}+{L1|R1}i, would they be defined as the sum of a surreal number and a surreal number times the imaginary unit, or as the sum of a surcomplex number and a surcomplex number times the imaginary unit
01:40:15 <oerjan> the former probably makes the most sense
01:40:34 <hppavilion[1]> It does, but the latter sounds like it's probably true. Because that's how math works.
01:40:43 <zzo38> Look at the definition of Surcomplex number see if it is found in Wikipedia?
01:40:58 <zzo38> (If not on Wikipedia, try something else)
01:40:59 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well the latter would be true but not a unique representation.
01:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I made up the word "Surcomplex" because I needed something to call it
01:42:40 <zzo38> I don't expect it would be called something else; "surcomplex" seem how I would call it too
01:43:04 <oerjan> i assume the surreals are a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_closed_field except for not being a set
01:43:30 <oerjan> and so their algebraic closure would be formed in the same way as for normal reals
01:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> Conway's Game of Life is a 0-player game. We can do better than that.
01:45:44 <hppavilion[1]> We must create either a Fractional Player Game or a -1 player game.
01:47:13 <zzo38> If you can figure out how, then yes.
01:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well an n+0.5 player game could potentially be created by allowing someone to interact who is not strictly participating in the game
01:49:06 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that could make D&D an n+0.5 player game, where n is the number of players other than the dungeon master
01:49:51 <zzo38> I would not expect it though; the dungeon master is also one of the players of the game, although it is not a formal game so it doesn't matter anyways.
01:53:13 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a euler diagram of number systems. For some reason, that sounds like it'd be more fun than it should be.
01:54:15 <hppavilion[1]> What's the value of a number with a fractional exponent where the numerator of such exponent is not 1?
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01:56:38 <oerjan> a^(p/q) is the qth root of a^p hth
01:58:05 <oerjan> p/q should be in lowest terms.
01:58:18 <shachaf> a^(p/q) is (the qth root of a)^p hth
01:58:25 <oerjan> there'll still be multiple complex solutions
01:58:56 <shachaf> i guess parentheses weren't implied one way or the other in what you said
01:59:21 <oerjan> well they were. is your version more defined...
01:59:35 <shachaf> this did not work out at all
01:59:54 <oerjan> it should work fine for complex numbers
02:00:08 <shachaf> the attempt at some sort of humor
02:00:13 <oerjan> but your version may not need p/q in lowest terms
02:00:33 <oerjan> if it is, then they're probably equivalent?
02:00:42 <shachaf> why does your version need lowest terms?
02:01:20 <oerjan> 1^(2/2) could be -1 otherwise
02:01:33 <shachaf> well, the square root function isn't even defined on negative numbers
02:01:59 <oerjan> i'm not taking square root of anything negative
02:01:59 <shachaf> that's not what i meant to say
02:02:04 <shachaf> square root isn't even a function
02:02:18 <oerjan> i told you there would be multiple complex solutions
02:02:38 <shachaf> just ignore everything i've said here for the past hour
02:02:49 <oerjan> i suppose e^(p/q*ln a) is also good
02:03:01 <oerjan> and probably equivalent
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02:04:14 <shachaf> ok this doesn't work either
02:04:57 <shachaf> look the point is i want sqrt(a)sqrt(b) = sqrt(ab)
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02:08:16 <\oren\> font updated! only 6 characters but I did a lot of work to unglitch the width 夢羅針饂飩檎
02:08:49 <shachaf> What is the mindset that leads to questions like http://stackoverflow.com/q/33049458 ?
02:10:37 <\oren\> looks like typical devout onelinerism
02:11:06 <\oren\> he wants to express the twoliner as a oneliner
02:11:41 <shachaf> I mean the mixup of forall and exists
02:11:58 <shachaf> This person wants to write [exists a. Show a *> a]
02:12:03 <hppavilion[1]> I read a post where a Mathematician said that it'd be nice if we had a modern text
02:12:57 <shachaf> it's not really the moment for that
02:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know what *> means, but I know that using exists there is awful
02:13:22 <\oren\> did not read the fucking manual
02:13:27 <shachaf> *> isn't real Haskell (or GHC) syntax, but it would be the dual of => in the way that exists is the dual of forall
02:14:56 <\oren\> wait, i thought it was spelled "tobacco"
02:16:32 <\oren\> hmm. in C, a+>b should be the same as (**a).b
02:16:47 <zzo38> I happen to like TeX; it is good as it is and the modern stuff isn't quite as good
02:16:50 <\oren\> that would have been very helpful today
02:17:26 <\oren\> I wrote my resume in LaTeX
02:17:56 <zzo38> TeX is already very good. There are a lot of modern programs which you can use (including LaTeX) but I don't like them as much (nevertheless, you can use it if it is available, if you want to do so).
02:18:26 <\oren\> I mainly use LaTeX so I can use the $$ equation $$ syntax
02:19:13 <zzo38> The $$ syntax (called display math) is supported in Plain TeX too; it is a primitive feature of TeX
02:26:12 <zzo38> Do you even know how to use TeX? If you do not know, then you must learn.
02:27:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> What is the mindset that leads to questions like http://stackoverflow.com/q/33049458 ? <-- an inability to understand quantifiers beyond the syllogism stage. it might well be a majority human condition hth
02:28:04 <shachaf> oerjan: But people seem to make this particular confusion a lot.
02:31:54 <oerjan> well it adds double negation to the mix
02:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Of course TeX is good, but it's old. Here's the idea: If we manage to make a new and better TeX replacement, Awesome! Mathematical writing is now easier! If we make one that's worse, oh well, no one uses it, but it was fun to write
02:33:10 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Well, you are free to try to make up new computer program; I have nothing against that. Nevertheless some people might prefer TeX even if you like the new one, but even if a few people can use it, or at least to see the codes, then it is not so useless, isn't it?
02:33:11 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of format could we use for typesetting mathematics that hasn't been done before (TeX did a sort of infix function notation, MathML did XML)
02:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Of course, of course. That's what I'm going for
02:33:55 <zzo38> Or alternatively JSON, or S-expressions as oerjan has said
02:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to go to Wiki and see what it has to say on formats
02:35:43 <zzo38> That is another possibility too
02:38:05 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that which I just posted is HTMLtaggy JSON with positional arguments
02:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> Meh. I'll just do something normal for now. I'd like to figure out how to render stuff /before/ I start doing it weirdly
02:41:50 <zzo38> But all of these things being specified could also be represented with RDF (or even with each other, although they could be represented best with RDF probably if a common format is used for everything)
02:42:45 <zzo38> Whatever you do make, see if it is as powerful as TeX
02:42:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just do something LaTeXy to learn how to render, then something new when I know what I'm doing
02:43:43 <zzo38> That isn't quite what I mean
02:45:04 <zzo38> TeX isn't only for mathematics, anyways. I use it for many kind of typesetting stuff
02:46:39 <hppavilion[1]> So do you have any syntax ideas? It's starting out like normal TeX, with \functionname{stuff}{stuff}, but it'll evolve from there
02:47:19 <zzo38> I find normal TeX syntax fine, and pretty flexible
02:47:55 <hppavilion[1]> OK. This'll probably just end up being my own take on TeX xD
02:49:07 <hppavilion[1]> I have no clue how typesetting works, so this'll really just be me bumbling my way around. Like, to the degree that I will make up my own font format most likely
02:49:39 <zzo38> Just use the .TFM format for fonts
02:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe just fonts existent on the system. This'll probably be interpreted, with it just painting to a canvas
02:50:23 <zzo38> There are a few things with TeX that could be improved, such as using stdin/stdout so that the DVI is written to stdout instead of to a file and so on, as well as allowing error handlers to be defined, although TeX also works very well as it is and can do without such thing.
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02:54:58 <zzo38> When I mention "as powerful as TeX", Turing-completeness isn't sufficient because Turing-complete only has to do with what calculations it can perform rather than how it can be used in the program and with I/O.
02:56:41 <zzo38> For example, can you parse PGN with your system? (I have written a PGN and FEN parser in TeX. I have written a PBM parser too.)
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03:01:49 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to see a programming language that accepts images as it's source, but Vector instead of Raster
03:02:28 <hppavilion[1]> I just found an amazing idea on the Ideas page. An esolang that is a derivative of itself (ideally in a way that makes it possible to deduce most of its semantics via induction, despite the lack of a base case).
03:07:56 <\oren\> where's boily?! 夢羅針饂飩檎麻鼻麺麦鳴高駅
03:08:07 <pikhq> Same place as elliott?
03:08:37 <\oren\> he requested those five
03:22:30 <zzo38> The next thing I wanted to figure out is how to make ephemeris calculations using TeX (with an external data file if necessary)
03:24:29 <zzo38> Even if it is ephemerides for only the sun and moon, it would be sufficient to print a calendar; if you had all ephemerides (and the necessary fonts) you could print a horoscope too.
03:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll add the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Π-calculus to LIME
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03:35:03 <oren> changed to connect thru my server instead of locally
03:35:52 <oren> - hexedit the width at 0x122 to be 0240 and correct the checksum for the OS/2 ta
03:35:55 <oren> ble- hexedit the width at 0x122 to be 0240 and correct the checksum for the OS/2 ta
03:37:11 <oren> holy shit this new windows terminal has transparency@?!?
03:40:46 <oren> bah, too hard to read
03:42:36 <izabera> i need to know how you decide whether to be called \oren\ or oren
03:43:02 <oren> In this case, it just took my username on my server
03:43:32 <oren> and made that my nick by default
03:43:45 <oren> but I like backslashes
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03:48:55 <\oren{> now my nick is like a forklift
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05:30:35 <\oren{_> Today's recommendation: 干物妹！うまるちゃん
05:59:13 <zzo38> Mostly I don't like transparent windows but I have used it once.
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05:59:49 <zzo38> (In order to draw a copy of a picture into MegaZeux)
06:34:20 <\oren{_> I have no idea how I came across this terminal, but I like it a lot: http://ntu.csie.org/~piaip/pietty/
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06:40:45 <\oren{_> Phellontellom Helloovellor
06:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should make a https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Π-calculus haskell equivalent
06:42:27 <\oren{_> I think you mean https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/π-calculus
06:43:47 <\oren{_> wait wtf? the url autocorrects lowercase pi to uppercase, but the article title is lowercase?
06:45:51 <\oren{_> Hmm... so the first letter of wiki urls can be upper or lowercase and it goes to the uppercase version
06:46:09 <\oren{_> but the rest of the url is case-sensitive. assholes
06:47:11 <\oren{_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/cat work, but https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAt is a different article
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06:49:31 <zzo38> That is how MediaWiki software works (although that feature can be disabled)
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07:57:18 <Phantom_Hoover> it's not even the most annoying think about mediawiki titles
07:57:30 <Phantom_Hoover> there are a bunch of special characters that you can't use
08:05:12 <izabera> why does the balaclava that's used by robbers have a hole for the mouth?
08:09:49 <shachaf> \oren[_: I think the historical justification for it was so that article titles at the beginning of a sentence wouldn't be different from ones in the middle of a sentence.
08:10:00 <shachaf> \oren[_: Why do you keep adding all these characters to your nick?
08:10:08 <shachaf> I wish people would just stick to one nick.
08:11:16 <Phantom_Hoover> izabera, well ideally you want to be able to say 'give me all the money' vs. 'mmf mm mm m mmhmm'
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08:15:41 <izabera> there's a guy with a gun and you're a bank director, he points the gun to your head
08:15:55 <izabera> do you need to know exactly what he's looking for?
08:16:13 <izabera> "sorry i don't understand, can you take off your mask please?"
08:17:36 <izabera> "i shaid mmmfh mmh money mmhhfm mothafucka!"
08:18:30 <Phantom_Hoover> maybe he just wants to open an account to deposit the money he robbed from another bank
08:19:28 <Phantom_Hoover> also why not have a mouth hole? unless you have a very characteristic mouth you're not going to get identified by it
08:20:18 <izabera> well i dunno, i just thought that it's exposing more than necessary
08:24:08 <zzo38> Or bring typewritten notes, but then it won't help for use of unexpected questions
08:24:45 -!- \oren[_ has changed nick to oren.
08:25:48 <oren> You could also just use a medical mask, those poof outwards from your mouth allowing you to speak fairly clearly
08:26:11 <oren> 件企任伴伝伯伸冗刑判到制奴妹姉始嫌
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08:55:42 <shachaf> you twitted me or something
08:56:14 <olsner> ah, I may have followed you
08:56:34 <shachaf> also apparently you have a name that isn't olsner
08:56:51 <olsner> yes, olsner was already taken
08:57:31 <shachaf> i mean a given name, not a username
08:57:44 <olsner> ah, yes, my real name is completely unrelated
09:02:58 <oren> my real name is oren
09:05:30 <myname> my real name is not myname
09:06:01 <oren> i think shachafs real name is shachaf, and I'm almost certain oerjan's real name is some orthographic variant of oerjan
09:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44667&oldid=44664 * 90.201.129.135 * (+140)
09:10:48 <Taneb> Hmm, I need to contact the correct authorities to help me steal my own bike
09:11:40 <myname> my trick is not to use a lock
09:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44668&oldid=44667 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-4)
09:12:51 <Taneb> I think in my case that would be problematic as it's been on campus for 2 or 3 months now
09:13:10 <Taneb> One of my friends tried to unlock it overnight and broke the key
09:14:52 <zgrep> Acquire bolt cutters?
09:15:24 <Taneb> Well, the issue is I don't want campus security thinking I'm a bike thief
09:16:01 <zgrep> Any proof that it's your bike?
09:16:08 <zgrep> (Well, if you log into the bike to prove its yours...)
09:16:44 <Taneb> I have half the key (the other half is still in the lock) and it has my surname written on it
09:17:01 <zgrep> The bike or the key?
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09:17:46 <zgrep> Perhaps campus security has bolt cutters, and maybe your surname written on the bike is enough to verify that it's yours...
09:18:24 <zgrep> Or if it's a TSA lock, you can 3d print the necessary master key.
09:18:43 <Taneb> Issue is the lock was already broken when the key broke
09:19:09 <zgrep> In what was is that an issue?
09:20:10 <zgrep> What sort of lock is it?
09:21:09 <Taneb> It was one of those D locks, and I think the part of the cylinder that actually blocks it from being opened has snapped off
09:22:26 <zgrep> You could freeze the lock and hit it with a hammer.
09:22:43 <Taneb> Doesn't solve the issue of not wanting to look like a bike theif
09:22:55 <Taneb> I believe the porters have access to tools to remove bikes, anyway
09:23:38 <zgrep> I don't think there's any way not to look like a bike thief without asking somebody such as security to help you with it. You could try to do it discreetly.
09:24:07 <fizzie> You could dress up as a clown.
09:24:09 <Taneb> Or I could ask security
09:24:54 <zgrep> You could dress up as a bike, then hide out with the other bike for a bit, and then when nobody's looking, pounce away and make the miraculous scene of a bike riding another bike.
09:26:05 <fizzie> Even just holding a sign saying "I AM NOT A BIKE THIEF" might be enough to make you not look like a bike thief, I don't think they generally want to attract attention.
09:26:05 <zgrep> Well, that's all the advice I seem to have available, and thus I shall comatose for a few hours, perhaps hallucinate vividly too, and then suffer amnesia about the whole thing.
09:26:52 <fizzie> (Although it might make you look like a bike thief with a clever plan.)
09:27:10 <Taneb> Or I could sit here and learn LaTeX
09:27:53 <int-e> \documentclass{zZzZ}
09:29:20 <int-e> The GG website seems to be undergoing some maintenance? Sigh.
09:53:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * M654z * New user account
09:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44669&oldid=44525 * M654z * (+9)
09:57:56 <int-e> that edit seems a bit premature...
10:05:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44670 * M654z * (+763) Created page with "G* is an esoteric programming language made by [[User:M654z]] in 2015. G* was originally designed for code golfing. ===Commands=== p - Prints text q - Creates a quine l - Loo..."
10:06:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44671&oldid=44670 * M654z * (+9)
10:06:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44672&oldid=44671 * M654z * (+8)
10:06:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44673&oldid=44672 * M654z * (+10)
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13:08:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44674&oldid=44668 * Flawr * (+114)
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13:19:41 <int-e> G* looks like it mimics the HQ9 family of languages (a case of parallel evolution, maybe).
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13:57:51 <int-e> . o O ( As I said... )
13:58:16 <myname> i like how the l command is practically useless
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14:36:10 <HackEgo> drone sex/Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Controlled experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone popul
14:36:15 <lambdabot> \oren\ said 11h 27m 49s ago: 羅針饂飩檎
14:36:59 <boily> @tell \oren\ ありがとうございます！
14:51:49 <gamemanj> "a biological explaination for the ever increasing drone population"? Such a thing exists?
14:54:07 <int-e> wisdom is always factually accurate
14:56:03 <int-e> `` culprits wisdom/drone\ sex # disclosure
15:02:33 <int-e> `` sed -i 's=Controlled e=E=' wisdom/drone\ sex
15:23:49 <gamemanj> But how on earth would drone birth work?
15:24:06 <gamemanj> Do they carry little 3d-printer filaments?
15:26:32 <int-e> gamemanj: sounds plausible
15:30:52 <gamemanj> So... do they 3d-print little parts, and then they attach them all together? What about the microchips?
15:31:29 <gamemanj> Oh... of course. That's another reason it wouldn't work in captivity, either... they wouldn't have anywhere to steal them from.
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15:50:05 <FreeFull> `tail -c 100 wisdom/drone\ sex
15:50:05 <HackEgo> tail: 100 wisdom/drone\ sex: invalid number of bytes
15:50:08 <FreeFull> `run tail -c 100 wisdom/drone\ sex
15:50:09 <HackEgo> eiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
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17:26:55 <lambdabot> boily said 2h 49m 56s ago: ありがとうございます！
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17:35:02 <Taneb> Sometimes, due to my social awkwardness, I forget that I'm actually quite extroverted
17:35:17 <Taneb> I mean, compared to introverts, at least
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17:35:31 <myname> that may depend on the definition imo
17:36:13 <myname> i.e. there seem to be something like "extroverts are good at talking to people" as opposed to "introverts feel most comfortable alone"
17:36:32 <Taneb> I don't think those two are mutually exclusive
17:36:43 <myname> exactly that's my point
17:36:55 <myname> i don't feel lile belonging to any of these
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17:45:44 <b_jonas> Taneb: there's that joke that an introverted mathematician is one who looks at their own shoes when he's talking to someone, and an extroverted one is one who looks at the addressed person's shoes.
17:49:08 <myname> i know that one with computer scientists
17:49:13 <myname> it may be more true there
17:51:45 <Taneb> Well, yesterday I facilitated a bar crawl for CS students
17:52:56 <b_jonas> myname: probably both, yes
17:54:11 <Taneb> Some people seemed to be both computer scientists AND social!
17:54:45 <zzo38> What is it call the mathematician who look at both people's shoes in order to compare?
17:55:11 <myname> Taneb: well, people do believe i am.social
17:55:27 <myname> i ave no idea why they do think so, tbh
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18:35:52 <HackEgo> delve/Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.” The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with
18:36:07 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/delve
18:36:29 <boily> tswett: tswellott. I think the text cuts off prematurely.
18:39:09 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
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18:45:51 <myname> except when you are looking at space docking
18:47:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44675&oldid=44674 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+243)
18:48:35 <boily> mynamello. space docking?
18:48:59 <gamemanj> containerizing the universe... brilliant idea, myname!
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18:51:04 <myname> b_jonas: i dare you to urbandictionary it
18:51:51 <boily> I have the same problem. oerjan and olsner are the same person, as are mauris and mroman.
18:52:08 <b_jonas> boily: what? isn't oerjan the same person as oren?
18:52:16 <b_jonas> or is that no longer since he uses the nick \oren\ ?
18:52:22 <boily> I ain't be urbandictionnarying no word. my expertise lays with recording the Wisdom.
18:53:40 <boily> \oren\ has backslashes, so they seceded from the oerljansner fusion.
18:58:33 <\oren\> yeah it is an advantage of having backslashed
19:05:24 <HackEgo> CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
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20:09:31 <tswett> Y'know, Magic seems to have a lot of things that are similar to alternative cost.
20:10:20 <tswett> Well, there's "as an alternative cost, you may do X"; "you may pay this cost by doing X"; and "you may do X instead of paying this cost".
20:10:33 <myname> http://amzn.to/13VVqS2 wat
20:10:39 <tswett> IIUC, Phyrexian mana symbols use the second option, and Delve uses the third.
20:11:08 <tswett> Actually, let me double-check Delve.
20:12:07 <tswett> Looks like I'm wrong. http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Delve says: "Exiling a card this way is simply another way to pay that cost."
20:12:36 <zzo38> I think delve doesn't change the cost (so you can still activate mana abilities even if it can be paid without mana), but Phyrexian mana requires you to choose at the beginning (as you are choosing the modes) whether the cost will be life or mana.
20:17:10 <zzo38> Changed into what?
20:18:01 <b_jonas> tswett: note that some of the remainder text, such as the new reminder text for the Con-thingy mechanic of Selesnya, may be abbreviated to use templating the rules text wouldn't normally do.
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20:27:07 <\oren\> Bad kerning as a sound change: e.g. /cl/ → /d/, /vv/ → /w/, or, more spectacularly, /rri/ → /m/ (the origin of the infamous “hurrianist–humanist” merger).
20:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> So I have bluetooth, powerful data manipulation libraries, touchscreen control, amazing hardware-accellerated GUI, server software, the Skype API, etc. All in python.
20:29:15 <hppavilion[1]> Now I need to think of something to do with my evil technology
20:29:38 <hppavilion[1]> (oh, also, text-to-speech, hotkeys, and sending keypresses to the OS)
20:30:06 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could find something for speech recognition and roll my own Programmer's Siri?
20:30:34 <coppro> zzo38: you can pay for phyrexian mana with either life or mana
20:32:03 <\oren\> note I didn't invent that, I saw it as a search result for bad kerning rri m
20:32:24 <zzo38> coppro: Yes, but it is rule 601.2b says how to figure out Phyrexian mana, but delve is figured out during 601.2h, that is what the rules says, isn't it?
20:33:55 <zzo38> Maybe Yawgatog has not been updated; the last rule updates are from 2015 July 17
20:34:46 <tswett> \oren\: I've seen that blog.
20:34:53 <tswett> I've contributed a few ideas to it.
20:35:56 <tswett> Let's see, which ideas of mine do I still like?
20:36:07 <tswett> "Consonants are written on one side of the paper, vowels on the other."
20:36:13 <tswett> "The writing system only indicates prosody, not consonants or vowels."
20:36:26 <tswett> "A conversation consists of a game of Go. Anyone who can’t communicate clearly while still playing at at least a 10 kyu level is considered uneducated."
20:36:37 <tswett> "Every phoneme is a chord. The language can only be spoken by at least three people in tandem (or one person with an appropriate musical instrument). Everyone always carries around a tuning fork to use as a pitch reference, for correct understanding."
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20:43:08 <b_jonas> "Consonants are written on one side of the paper, vowels on the other." -- that one can basically happen with some languages if you rotate the paper and write only one line, I think.
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20:43:50 <b_jonas> "A conversation consists of a game of Go. Anyone who can’t communicate clearly while still playing at at least a 10 kyu level is considered uneducated." -- hehe, nice
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20:45:07 <b_jonas> I don't know about go, but "A conversation consists of <activity>. Anyone who can't communicate clearly while <showing a great feat in that activity> is considered uneducated." is a great template, you can have a lot of languages and programming languages on that theme.
20:45:51 <b_jonas> Such as, chef and Shakespear which are esolangs where the programs pretend to be something else but also contain steganographed instructions for the program.
20:46:14 <b_jonas> Or speaking natural languages constrained to some particular poetic form.
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21:03:55 <zzo38> Another idea of Magic: the Gathering cards, this one being a land card: Can be played from your sideboard. ;; {T}, Sacrifice ~: Add {1} to your mana pool.
21:05:29 <zzo38> Can be played from your sideboard. ;; ~ comes into play tapped. ;; {T}, Sacrifice ~: Add {1} to your mana pool.
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21:11:23 <int-e> do not play more than one ~ from the sideboard per round?
21:11:43 <int-e> hmm, I guess "turn" is the term
21:12:15 <zzo38> It is a land, so you cannot play more than one land per turn at all
21:12:46 <ais523> zzo38: what is this card? note that even if it comes into play tapped and produces {1}, it is probably still brokenly powerful
21:14:31 <zzo38> Yes, probably, but if it is restricted or banned then how powerful is it?
21:14:55 <ais523> if it's banned then it doesn't matter how powerful it is (see: Contract from Below)
21:15:07 <ais523> if it's restricted, I imagine nearly all decks would play one copy
21:15:35 <zzo38> Even if restricted or banned doesn't prevent you from using it if it is drafted though.
21:15:44 <ais523> (note: I'm currently assuming: "Land. You may play ~ from outside the game. ~ enters the battlefield tapped. {T}: Add {1} to your mana pool.")
21:15:58 <ais523> no, banned works on drafted cards too I think
21:16:11 <ais523> but different formats have different banlists
21:16:16 <ais523> and most banlists are aimed at constructed formats
21:16:33 <zzo38> I don't think so; banned cards are allowed in limited formats.
21:16:52 <zzo38> (I think they once prebanned a card, probably for this reason.)
21:17:00 <ais523> zzo38: I don't think Contract from Below would be allowed in Alpha draft
21:17:14 <ais523> also they once prebanned Memory Jar, but not because they wanted it for Draft only
21:17:22 <ais523> it's because they only realised how brokenly powerful it was after it had already been printed
21:17:34 <ais523> I'm not even sure Draft was an officially supported format at the time
21:18:24 <pikhq> As I understand it, even if it were "legal" in Alpha draft, you'd remove it from your library before you began playing.
21:18:26 <zzo38> If you are playing an Alpha draft without ante then of course Contract from Below is disallowed.
21:18:44 <ais523> wouldn't that still let you run less than 40 cards though?
21:19:09 <zzo38> ais523: Depend how it is checked; I would expect that it does not allow
21:19:16 <ais523> (admittedly this is a somewhat moot point, because it seems unlikely that anyone will be able to collect enough Alpha boosters into one place at once to be able to draft it)
21:19:50 <zzo38> Unless you use proxies, but in that case it is unofficial and you can define other tournment rules too
21:20:21 <pikhq> Every now and then an unopened *box* of Alpha shows up.
21:20:55 <zzo38> A variant rule can be you can play it, but the ante zone starts empty; if you play Contract from Below and then lose, your opponent has that card for the remainder of the current match only and then after that your score is decreased by the anted card's value.
21:21:25 <\oren\> mAbE I Sud start wRkiG on a gramR riform tU gO wiT mI speliG riform
21:21:39 <int-e> Does m:tg have cards that can be played from outside the game (without playing a wish-like card in game first)?
21:21:55 <zzo38> Another strangely idea is a card that can be played from the ante zone.
21:22:09 <pikhq> Not to my knowledge, unless you count Un-.
21:22:39 <zzo38> (Or that has a static ability that works from the ante zone)
21:22:47 <ais523> pikhq: I don't think Un- does either
21:23:07 <pikhq> ais523: Well, except there are cards in Un- that effect *other games*.
21:23:10 <ais523> people keep mentioning Cheatyface, but the designers have consistently said that its ability only works from hand
21:23:19 <ais523> pikhq: right, but they aren't played into those games
21:23:21 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know if maybe Extra Pulled does, even if Unglued and Unhinged don't?
21:32:06 <zzo38> The Gatherer comments for Contract from Below mention another variant for ante, a bit similar to my own but not quite
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21:37:41 <ais523> clever idea from comp.lang.c: «#include "/dev/zero"»
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21:38:50 <zzo38> Is that to ensure it is UNIX?
21:39:03 <zzo38> Or to try to crash the compiler?
21:39:20 <b_jonas> ais523: what does that do?
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21:39:30 <zzo38> Or to compare what different compilers do when including such a device file?
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21:39:44 <ais523> b_jonas: on many compilers, it crashes the compiler
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21:39:51 <ais523> because it tries to read the entirety of /dev/zero into memory
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21:40:41 <zzo38> I suggested, to see what different compilers do, different compilers might do different things, including some might crash, some might ignore it, or some might display an error message.
21:41:09 <b_jonas> Gcc gives an out of memory error message in at least some cases.
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21:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Why not a generalization of the sets where the size of a set can be any real number?
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21:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> a is the letter of the alphabet at index 1. We should invent an esoteric letter at index zero. It should already exist in unicode
21:51:50 <fizzie> @ is the usual choice.
21:52:20 <int-e> hmpf, what's the lower case @...
21:52:48 <fizzie> `! c printf("%c", 'A' - 1);
21:53:05 <ais523> @ is way better known though for some reason
21:53:17 <fizzie> I think because it's the ^@.
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21:54:17 <fizzie> zemhill: Where did you come from?
21:54:29 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about what happened to your friend?
21:54:29 <fungot> fizzie: you and whose army, been run out of by a rampaging mob wielding weapons back her up, she'll be back in two days, and they're real i tell you! they've all been targeted!
21:54:42 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
21:54:44 <ais523> now we'll have to improvise BF Joust programs to keep it happy
21:55:06 <ais523> !bfjoust test >>+++++<+++++<(-)*127(-+)*100000
21:55:09 <int-e> maybe metasepia will return next
21:55:14 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_test: 6.4
21:55:17 <ais523> !zjoust test >>+++++<+++++<(-)*127(-+)*100000
21:55:19 <zemhill> ais523.test: points -11.45, score 11.82, rank 47/47
21:55:50 <fizzie> Oh, it was just a post-netsplit rejoin.
21:56:09 <gamemanj> Um, did EgoBot's reply come before the command to EgoBot... or did the !bfjoust command actually somehow do something?
21:56:34 <ais523> gamemanj: !bfjoust is a command to egobot, !zjoust to zemhil
21:56:41 <ais523> they do the same thing (but the two hills are a little different)
21:57:37 <b_jonas> !zjoust test (>-)*8(>[+].[-]([.-])*3.)*29
21:57:37 <zemhill> b_jonas.test: points -23.90, score 6.29, rank 47/47
21:57:47 <int-e> gamemanj: well, you're on 3 different servers... things like that can happen
21:58:46 <gamemanj> int-e: I'm on 3 different servers? What's the third one?
21:58:58 <int-e> gamemanj: ("you" being EgoBot, ais523 and you (gamemanj))
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21:59:33 <gamemanj> Oh, servers inside this network.
21:59:43 <gamemanj> I thought there was someone pretending to be me, then!
22:00:02 <int-e> yeah, I could've phrased that better
22:00:19 <int-e> (oh, good morning)
22:00:43 <int-e> (it's midnight here)
22:00:51 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:02:56 <ais523> "Good morning, sir. Good afternoon, madam."
22:08:37 <fungot> int-e: what, the ability to be captured the palladium out, the others. kronsteen v. mcadams oon thu east of paris. made of plaster wasn't the pope! my grandson is seeing the movie! what a tragedy is of use the internet, adam. it could just apply a jolly good. nothing has a bite that big to you, our helpful. ' is phone is still workin' class, guv.
22:09:16 <int-e> jolly good internet...
22:09:19 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:10:24 <int-e> (that is, the strange mixed vocabulary makes sense, given the mixed nature of the source)
22:11:14 <zzo38> I am trying to make in TeX the comparison of the last few tokens of the expansion of a macro with a the contents of a token list register
22:12:02 <ais523> hmm, so apparently some people have made a BF encoding that doesn't do RLE
22:12:06 <ais523> in an attempt to golf it
22:12:09 <ais523> I fear they are missing the point :-(
22:12:36 <zzo38> (Although it may occur anywhere and does not have to necessarily search only at the end, as the tokens being searched for are guaranteed to only be found at the end if at all.)
22:13:28 <int-e> ais523: so what did they do, just use 3 bits per operation?
22:13:42 <ais523> int-e: encoded two operations into one ASCII character
22:14:06 <ais523> not even with an attempt to adjust for probability
22:14:17 <int-e> including +- -+ <> >< I suppose
22:15:02 <int-e> (you could *naturally* use these for +++ --- <<< and >>>, still ignoring all probabilities)
22:16:55 <ais523> yes, it does have encodings for things like <>
22:17:00 <ais523> while simultaneously acknowledging that they're useless
22:17:09 <int-e> what's the source?
22:17:31 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/ShadyAsFuck
22:17:47 <int-e> ah, I could've seen that
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22:18:24 <zzo38> You don't need ][ either
22:18:55 <zzo38> (except for comments, although it don't work so well in here anyways.)
22:20:08 <int-e> I guess just adding some characters that mean [-] and encode runs of +->< up to length 8 would turn it into a decent encoding.
22:21:22 <int-e> (I chose 8 because then it should still fit into the printable ASCII range)
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22:22:54 <int-e> But I missed the last column. That's actually a nice touch - having +-<>[]., stand for themselves (paired with a nop).
22:26:01 <int-e> so 72 characters taken, of which 5 are useless, so 28 "free" printable characters (avoiding DEL)... yeah that's enough for runs of +-<> of length 3..8.
22:28:08 <int-e> hah. "., C cat (reads one char and outputs)"
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22:34:02 <int-e> owie... Process p = Runtime.getRuntime().exec("./main bftemp.temp "+bfin);
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22:48:46 <HackEgo> hexham/Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
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22:53:40 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: @ is lowercase, don't you notice that it looks like an "a" (the print kind, not the fancy computer kind)
22:54:32 <fizzie> It's not lowercase, because it's 'A' - 1, not 'a' - 1.
22:55:09 <fizzie> That's the same thing.
22:55:18 <hppavilion[1]> Where did @ even /come/ from? I mean, it's never used except in email addresses usually
22:55:30 <oerjan> alphabet semantically coded in integers
22:55:59 <fizzie> Just a shorthand of "at", AIUI.
22:56:21 <oerjan> it was probably used in snailmail
22:56:23 <fizzie> "-- originally an accounting and commercial invoice abbreviation meaning "at a rate of" (e.g. 7 widgets @ £2 = £14) --"
22:56:37 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: The most likely origin is that it's a ligature of "ad" used by medieval monks.
22:57:26 <pikhq> It certainly does see that usage in old documents.
22:58:19 <oerjan> wait, does that mean the part that looks most like an a is actually a d
22:58:20 <\oren\> @ is the zeroth letter of the roman alphabet
22:58:22 <fizzie> Heh, the Wikipedia article lists four different origin theories, and all four say [citation needed].
22:58:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44676&oldid=44025 * Hppavilion1 * (+23) Changed some syntax to allow for more tangling.
22:58:52 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a new esoteric control flow thing that is similar to a higher-level computed goto
22:58:52 <pikhq> The origin is rather a lot less clear than why it got encoded in ASCII in the first place.
22:59:27 <pikhq> It was commonly used in accounting and invoicing at the time in English, and thus considered a needed character in ASCII. :)
23:00:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44677&oldid=44676 * Hppavilion1 * (+14) Increased accuracy, bringing a sentence in line with CS philosophical constructs and such
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23:00:54 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: Sure.
23:01:21 -!- trn has quit (Quit: quit).
23:01:28 <hppavilion[1]> Or "End Instruction" or, as a subset, "conditional end"
23:01:38 -!- trn has joined.
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23:03:55 <\oren\> the alphabet has 32 letters, namely: @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_
23:04:50 <hppavilion[1]> Consider its implications. Note that IF can mean different things in different contexts, and that an extra END instruction is ignored
23:04:57 <\oren\> someone whould make a language where @ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_ and `abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~ are alphabtic characters, and names are case-insensitive.
23:05:07 <ais523> \oren\: IRC is like that IIRC
23:05:42 <hppavilion[1]> Why would {|} be the lower case of [\] and not vice versa?
23:06:01 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: because ASCII
23:09:59 <fizzie> The RFC2812 case mapping only extends to the "[]\~" / "{}|^" characters, not the rest.
23:10:00 <\oren\> hmm... how is IF x THEN a; END IF y; b; END different from IF x THEN a; b; ELSE b; END
23:10:40 <\oren\> hmm... how is IF x THEN a; END IF y; b; END different from IF x THEN a; b; ELSE IF y THEN b; END
23:11:10 <fizzie> (It doesn't matter much, because @ is not valid in nicks or channel names anyway.)
23:11:41 <\oren\> hppavilion{1}: does this work?
23:13:12 <fizzie> And of course it's not strictly "because of ASCII", it's because of the national ISO-646 variants have e.g. (in case of Finnish) ÄÖÅ for [\] and äöå for {|}. (Of course *that* case mapping is because of ASCII.)
23:13:20 <hppavilion[1]> Which'll end the number of tiems in the length of the list
23:14:48 <\oren\> i'm still trying to imagine what the end foreach woudl do
23:15:54 <hppavilion[1]> So if you're 20 levels nested deep, and l is seven elements long, it's like BREAK with a CONTINUE a at the 13th level
23:16:17 <hppavilion[1]> The x variable is never actually employed, so it's just a weird syntax
23:16:42 <hppavilion[1]> END WHILE isn't provided for because that'd just hang forever, unless you have some introspection available
23:16:53 <hppavilion[1]> Either it'd hang forever, or it'd break out completely
23:17:23 <hppavilion[1]> Your program would keep exiting its containments forever, and until the end of time
23:17:46 <hppavilion[1]> Type systems are based on Classical Logic, correct?
23:19:08 <oerjan> <\oren{_> Hmm... so the first letter of wiki urls can be upper or lowercase and it goes to the uppercase version <-- that's at least somewhat customizable, wiktionary distinguishes them
23:19:49 <ais523> \oren\: MediaWiki is, by default, case-insensitive in the first letter of a page (but none of the others)
23:19:53 <ais523> I find this to be a sensible default
23:20:49 <oerjan> i think there may also be a special case for ALLCAPS
23:21:13 <\oren\> it should be able to depend on the particular aritcle
23:21:32 <ais523> oerjan: there's a special case in the /search/ for allcaps
23:21:40 <ais523> but it doesn't affect the page names in any way
23:22:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Type systems are based on Classical Logic, correct? <-- no, intuitionistic usually
23:22:59 <oerjan> classical is equivalent to having unlimited continuations
23:24:00 <lambdabot> MonadCont m => ((a -> m b) -> m a) -> m a
23:24:21 <hppavilion[1]> I don't exactly understand how a type system can be based on a logic at all. Unless it's in haskell. Haskell is weird.
23:24:29 <oerjan> removing the monads, callCC has the type ((a -> b) -> a) -> a and you cannot make a function like that without continuations
23:25:06 <oerjan> and ((a -> b) -> a) -> a is one of the theorems that hold in classical logic but not intuitionistic
23:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> The part of the type system based on a logic has nothing to do with strong|weak*static|dynamic typing, correct?
23:25:37 <oerjan> type systems in that sense imply static
23:25:51 <oerjan> and if it's weak, then the type system is probably inconsistent
23:25:51 <hppavilion[1]> And a language could, in theory, use any form of logic as its type system?
23:26:07 <oerjan> well many forms anyway
23:26:25 <oerjan> anything that can be fit into the sequent or natural deduction style of logic
23:26:50 <oerjan> yes. istr temporal logic corresponds to the types of functional reactive programming
23:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> A Modal μ-calculus type system programming language?
23:27:27 <oerjan> monads are sort of modal logic
23:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll go learn a functional reactive programming language
23:29:56 <oerjan> <\oren\> it should be able to depend on the particular aritcle <-- i think at least wiktionary will redirect to the other if the current one doesn't exist
23:31:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: functional reactive programming is a _style_ of programming. you can do it in haskell, there are several libraries.
23:32:24 <hppavilion[1]> I already installed a language called Elm which appears to be based around it xD
23:32:36 <oerjan> but there are also some that... right i was about to mention that
23:33:14 <oerjan> HTML5 includes javascript? because i'm pretty sure you cannot compile much into plain html.
23:34:41 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course it can't compile to plain HTML xD
23:34:59 <hppavilion[1]> I'm /pretty/ sure "HTML5" is a blanket term for HTML, CSS, and JS
23:35:19 <oerjan> i think for haskell reactive banana has a certain momentum. i mean who can resist heinrich apfelmus' fruitiness...
23:35:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i cannot deny it, anyway.
23:36:24 <oerjan> my knowledge about html5 is like a vague osmosis from seeing people discuss it.
23:37:54 * oerjan still hasn't added either css or js to his unmaintained webpage.
23:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> What if there was a language with a "reactive" variable keyword? Where you can declare reactive x=y+5 and it will ALWAYS be y+5?
23:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, I'd like to see a language that is a conglomorate of all previous programming languages
23:42:51 <ais523> you define the syntax and semantics at runtime
23:42:53 <ais523> the core language is very simple
23:44:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'd still like to make a language like that. One with support for many different programming paradigms, all rolled into one
23:50:10 <fizzie> That's kind of insulting towards everyone who's ever been in a language design committee.
23:50:49 <ais523> the part that implies most language design committees aren't smart
23:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Well I never said *your* particular language design committee wasn't, and really it's the committee as a whole that isn't smart. I'm sure the individual members are intelligent human beings, but a bunch of intelligent human beings together often actually will be percieved to have a /lower/ IQ than the group really does. Because smart people overthink some things, and groups of smart people overthink /everything/, which is why
23:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> having the language designed by a commitee like I was considering isn't going to work
23:53:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really on language design commitees
23:53:32 <ais523> unless you count Verity, which you shouldn't really
23:53:41 <hppavilion[1]> *your* meant "You", not you yourself, "you" the reader who has been on a language design commitee
23:53:43 <ais523> (it's not a normal sort of committee model)
23:53:53 <oerjan> <boily> tswett: tswellott. I think the text cuts off prematurely. <-- as long as it's in the wisdom/
23:54:35 <oerjan> `` \? delve | tail -c 100
23:54:36 <HackEgo> l or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined.
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23:55:02 <HackEgo> Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.” The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve
23:55:02 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I want to create the Ultimate Programming Language.
23:55:20 <ais523> why do we have the rules for delve from M:tG in our wisdombot?
23:55:32 <tswett> ais523: find the culprits!
23:55:39 <ais523> `culprits wisdom/delve
23:55:42 <tswett> It'll be about twice as complicated as standard Haskell, perhaps? It won't actually be particularly simple.
23:55:44 <ais523> that explains who but not why
23:56:05 <tswett> So that people who are wondering what the rules for delve are can look them up in HackEgo.
23:56:19 <tswett> But the features I give you will be basic. Very basic. Very fundamental.
23:56:20 <ais523> is that a particularly common thing to wonder about though?
23:56:43 <ais523> (spot the common theme)
23:56:58 <ais523> magic isn't a cost-reducing ability :-P
23:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> I don't want to create the Ultimate Programming Language. I just want to create a Good Programming Language.
23:57:59 <tswett> Enchanted Drake. 3B. Creature – Dragon. 2/2. Trample, haste, magic.
23:58:06 <oerjan> `learn The magic was in you all along.
23:58:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'magic': The magic was in you all along.
23:58:16 <tswett> Note that my Ultimate Programming Language won't be a very good programming language for everyday use.
23:58:36 <tswett> It'll essentially force you to create language features before doing anything useful.
23:59:01 <tswett> Want to write a function which reverses a list? Okay, first you have to tell my language just what you mean by a "function".
23:59:08 <ais523> tswett: trample+haste in /black/?
23:59:21 <tswett> s/B/U/, not that that's much better.
23:59:22 <ais523> (black can have tramplers but not at power 2)
23:59:31 <tswett> Do you mean like a Haskell function? A primitive recursive function?
23:59:32 <hppavilion[1]> I can't tell if tswett is trying to make fun of me, or...
23:59:33 <ais523> err, that's arguably worse
23:59:44 <tswett> No, I'm being totally serious.
23:59:46 <zzo38> tswett: That is fine, try to make such programming language, may be good
00:00:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: no he's just crazy hth
00:00:17 <tswett> Also, what's a "list"? It's a data type, you say? But what's a "data type"?
00:00:35 <oerjan> this reminds me slightly of oklopol's Clue
00:00:36 <fizzie> ais523: Oh, fun thesis examination bureaucracy news. The full instructions for references are: "-- must be presented according to an internationally approved standard." The Committee meeting had a look at my manuscript, and said that I need to "fix the references" because they need to be Harvard style. As far as I can tell, there's no formal definition of Harvard style beyond some general ...
00:00:42 <fizzie> ... consensuses (author-year citations, alphabetical list by surname); the natbib style I was using is very close to existing examples except for ridiculously small details; and this Harvard thing isn't mentioned anywhere in the instructions.
00:00:46 <fizzie> (On the other hand, they also said it's enough that I fix them in the final manuscript, so I don't have to wait another month for a new meeting.)
00:01:00 <ais523> fizzie: my place, the rule was "you can use a numbered or author/date style but must be consistent"
00:01:02 <tswett> Are we talking plain old algebraic data types here? Or maybe it's more like STLC.
00:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I should include pattern matching in function definitions, somehow
00:01:23 <ais523> the main bureaucracy issues I had were that the instructions kind-of assumed that you were using Word
00:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> And a case construct. Python doesn't have one, for some reason.
00:01:30 <ais523> right down to limitations on the font size
00:01:45 <ais523> I had to go into OpenOffice and carefully compare LaTeX outputs with various settings to Liberation Sans
00:02:36 <ais523> and even then I couldn't match exactly
00:02:38 <tswett> IIRC, the big problem with putting a case construct in Python is the question of what would happen if you wanted to use a defined constant as one of your cases.
00:02:52 <fizzie> ais523: Arguably, "internationally approved standard" should encompass numeric styles too. At least the "using Word" assumptions only covered the actual application form, which was a .doc (or a Word-generated .rtf, which really wasn't any better).
00:03:06 <fizzie> In fact, the .doc version worked much better in LibreOffice.
00:03:21 <ais523> fizzie: right, here they were very careful to not assume Word, but in name only
00:03:33 <tswett> That's definitely something you would want to do, but Python doesn't really have a notion of a defined constant; they're just variables that happen to never change.
00:03:34 <ais523> this is like the time at school when I was asked how to copy cells on a spreadsheet
00:03:46 <ais523> I said "you'd use the 'copy to' command in the spreadsheet program's menus"
00:03:53 <tswett> And having a *variable* as one of your cases opens up a whole nother can of fish.
00:03:59 <ais523> they marked it wrong, on the basis that the expected answer was copy-and-paste
00:04:05 <hppavilion[1]> Should I include C-Like Scope in my language? It'd make you declare variables elsewhere, but it'd make typing easier...
00:04:17 <hppavilion[1]> The language should have optional types, I'm sure of that
00:04:26 <ais523> and I complained that I knew three different spreadsheet programs, and two of them had "copy to" as the only option for copying (and IIRC it exists somewhere in Excel too, or used to)
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00:04:51 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: depends on your goals, as always.
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00:05:16 <tswett> If I were to create a programming language for beginners, I would definitely make you declare and explicitly initialize all variables.
00:05:37 <tswett> In that case, perhaps your goals depend on the answer to your question.
00:06:28 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't for beginners, necessarily, It's for people who like pythony languages, but also like features from other, stranger languages like Prolog and Haskell and maybe even Thue.
00:06:44 <hppavilion[1]> It's more of an exploration for a programmer; like a spirit walk in the realm of programming
00:08:42 <hppavilion[1]> If feasible, you'd be able to do things as advanced as /defining operators/
00:10:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that sounds a lot like Perl 6
00:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I suppose it might be. Perl 6 has operator definitions like that?
00:11:39 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: actually lots of languages let you define operators like that, including Perl 6
00:11:48 <ais523> it's that specific operator (returning a set) that reminded me of Perl 6 in particular, though
00:11:48 <hppavilion[1]> I don't actually know much about Perl 6. I tried learning Perl 5, but as soon as I learned about qw() I set down the book and didn't open it again
00:13:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: why don't you like qw()?
00:14:17 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It seems to be context-sensitive, and I consider that to be bad practice in language design. Unless, of course, Perl has some snazzy feature that allows you to define that without it being context-sensitive
00:14:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: lots of things in Perl are context-sensitive, but qw() isn't one of them
00:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Not that I'm not sure what "context-sensitive" precisely means, I just took a shot in the dark there)
00:15:26 <ais523> Perl looks at the character after the qw
00:15:40 <ais523> then scans forwards to a matching character (matching bracket-like character, or a copy if it isn't bracket-like)
00:15:48 <ais523> then splits everything in between on spaces
00:15:52 <ais523> and returns it as a list
00:16:13 <ais523> so qw(abc def ghi) is equivalent to qw/abc def ghi/ which is equivalent to ('abc', 'def', 'ghi')
00:16:51 <hppavilion[1]> Because if it is, that's what I have a problem with
00:17:01 <ais523> I think in Perl 5, the quotelike operators are all hardcoded
00:17:06 <hppavilion[1]> I don't like that there's a function that takes entirely separate syntax from everything else
00:17:06 <ais523> except if you mess around with source filters
00:17:32 <ais523> just like "" and '' and // and qr//
00:17:45 <ais523> actually all the quotation marks have letter equivalents
00:17:52 <ais523> qq//, q//, m//, qr//, qw//
00:18:13 <hppavilion[1]> Though I still think it'd make more sense to just have a python-like split() function
00:18:14 <ais523> qw and qr are the only ones (IIRC) that don't have punctuation equivalents though
00:18:23 <ais523> (in Perl 6, qw does have a punctuation equivalent: <>)
00:18:33 <ais523> (Perl 6 also has a qqw, whose punctuation equivalent is «»)
00:18:41 <ais523> Perl has a split function too
00:19:16 <ais523> Perl was designed by a linguist, it follows natural language principles not programming language principles
00:19:27 <ais523> you can write if(!$x) or unless($x), for example
00:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> I find qw() /harder/ to read as syntax because it looks like a function to me.
00:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> And thus I interpret everything between it as more code
00:20:15 <hppavilion[1]> And have NO clue how to deal with the invalid thing "x" or whatever I see in there
00:20:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I normally write it as qw//
00:21:22 <hppavilion[1]> That makes a bit more sense, but I'd still read it as a function if I were programmed ot read perl. The "/"s I would recognize as the start of a function.
00:21:24 <fizzie> Quite a few languages have syntax composed of keywords that look as if they could be ordinary identifiers.
00:23:15 <ais523> if Perl had kept the & prefix on function calls, IMO it'd have made a lot more sense
00:26:19 <hppavilion[1]> Should I include pointers in my language, or should pointers stay exclusively at the low level?
00:27:52 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: think at the following level: do you want the concept of two variables "sharing" to exist in your language, and if so, what does it mean?
00:28:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: so for example in C
00:28:29 <boily> \oren\: \helloren\. still adding new kanji? ^^
00:28:36 <ais523> two variables can share if they're both pointers that point to the same thing
00:28:43 <ais523> because modifying the target of one will modify the target of the other
00:28:58 <ais523> likewise, one variable can point to another, then modifying the target of one will modify the other directly
00:29:02 <ais523> this can make C hard to reason about
00:29:14 <ais523> there are a bunch of other pointer-like structures, most of which have different sharing properties
00:29:42 <ais523> you can also have languages where sharing doesn't exist, such as BASIC
00:29:52 <ais523> and langauges where modification doesn't exist, such as Haskell (in which case sharing is hard to define)
00:30:35 <ais523> or, say, in Feather, things can't be modified, but they can be retroactively modified, and in this case the equivalent of "sharing" is if a retroactive modification to one will change the other
00:30:55 <zzo38> In BASIC you can have passing-by-reference though, and you can also use VARPTR and PEEK and POKE, although there are no pointer types.
00:35:18 <oerjan> Goddammit how does someone manage to write an answer to a 38 minutes old SO question just a _second_ before i was about to post mine...
00:35:47 <shachaf> oerjan: i bet your answer was better hth
00:41:35 <oerjan> shachaf: it was pretty much equivalent.
00:41:56 <oerjan> it was a simple question http://stackoverflow.com/questions/33060211/why-the-illegal-non-exchastive-pattern-matching-in-this-code#33060421
00:42:23 <shachaf> have i discouraged you from short links?
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00:44:16 <ais523> oerjan: that answer doesn't seem to handle the 1 and 2 element entries
00:44:19 <ais523> thus yours is better :-P
00:44:26 <oerjan> not really, i was just pasting from the address bar this time, i'm not exactly sure why it had a comment anchor, maybe because i clicked the "new edit" link
00:44:32 <oerjan> ais523: mine didn't either
00:47:18 <shachaf> comment anchors are fine and so are short links
00:47:54 <oerjan> i figured the OP probably had some reason to assume list lengths were divisible by 3 (if the special letters had been AGCT it would have been a no-brainer)
00:48:13 <zzo38> I found a set of tiles which I remember were used several years ago to play a chess variant. I do not remember all of the details, but it was played on a 8x8 board and one area apart from the grid labeled "Eton".
00:49:08 <hppavilion[1]> λ-nomic is still an idea I want to go through with
00:49:17 <shachaf> that description doesn't make eton of sense
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00:50:56 <zzo38> Watching a game I noticed that sometimes players could take back each other's moves, and in one case a player picked up one of the pieces from the board and put it into his pocket (probably as a joke, as he then put it back onto the board in the same position, and made a move).
00:51:37 <shachaf> Maybe he replaced it with a different piece?
00:52:09 <zzo38> It looked like the same piece to me, but maybe you are right
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00:52:26 <zzo38> (Maybe it was different on the reverse side, in an attempt to cheat)
00:53:02 <shachaf> Maybe it's allowed by the rules of the game.
00:53:07 <zzo38> Many of these pieces are blank on both dies, while some are blank on only one side and some are blank on neither side. Usually one side is either blank or has a "E" or a number, while the other side has some icon to represent what kind of piece.
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00:55:07 <zzo38> However, one piece says "E8" on one side. The pieces include bishops, queens, kings, nights, ponds, castles, a judge, a man wearing a hat, faces with cat-ears, and one piece appears to be Pikachu.
00:55:57 <zzo38> They seem to come in four colours: white, yellow, green, and blue; only one of the pieces is blue.
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01:05:33 <FreeFull> zzo38: Well, a standard chess board is 8x8 too
01:07:57 <zzo38> Although this one also had a "Eton" area in addition to the 8x8 grid.
01:10:16 <ais523> this game sounds like the result of calvinball, or possibly nomic
01:10:29 <fizzie> Heh: if I press the "mute" key on the keyboard, my X session dies with "simple.c:433: snd_mixer_selem_get_playback_switch: Assertion `(elem)->type == SND_MIXER_ELEM_SIMPLE' failed."
01:10:33 <fizzie> In retrospect, using Sound.ALSA.Mixer directly from XMonad to adjust volume may have been a mistake.
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01:17:23 <zzo38> I found these pieces, and yet I lost the rules for a different chess variant called "Emperor Wars", which I have never observed or played a game of. I can remember a few things about it though, and it is certainly an entirely different game, although the same 8x8 board is used.
01:21:00 <\oren\> idea: at the start of the game, your pieces are randomly generated as a permutation of all piece inventories with a given worth
01:22:05 <zzo38> \oren\: Yes that is a idea to make up the game
01:22:33 <\oren\> so if the game is a 9 point game, you could get one queen, or nine pawns, or 3 knights
01:23:07 <\oren\> the competitors or the event determines the point total for each side
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01:25:33 <\oren\> a standard inventory of pieces has 39 points. therefore, an extra row of board or two may need to be added if a player ends up with 39 pawns and a king
01:26:24 <ais523> I think I'd prefer the 39 pawns + king to the standard piece inventory
01:27:37 <zzo38> Yes, and in chess the pawns can also promote, so you can end up with other pieces anyways
01:28:38 <zzo38> Another variant I have seen is the same 8x8 board, king starts in the normal place, but the rest of the board is filled with queens; your half of the board has your queens/king.
01:28:57 <zzo38> Rules is otherwise same like FIDE chess (although castling is not possible, as there are no rook)
01:29:29 <\oren\> sounds like a MAD situations
01:31:23 <\oren\> is it even possible for Black to win?
01:33:19 <ais523> zzo38: I'm remembering a chess variant where one of the players has only a Queen (or maybe a Queen-Knight?), and the other player has to checkmate it
01:33:22 <ais523> but I can't remember the details
01:33:37 <zzo38> Yes I think I have read about that too.
01:34:21 <ais523> and Wikipedia's list of chess variants doesn't seem to have it
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01:45:17 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible to use parser combinators to parse a pythonic indent-style code block thing?
01:45:43 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: indentation should be changed into brace-tokens in the lexer
01:45:48 <ais523> if you're using a python-style language
01:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll add a component to my language to allow you to import new /syntax/, if I can figure out a way to do so
01:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> I can tell roughly how to do it with lexing, but not the parsing
01:48:42 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: in Perl, there's a language structure that runs the instant it's been parsed (and can contain arbitrary commands)
01:48:53 <ais523> and can affect the parsing/lexing of the rest of the program (normally parsing though)
01:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I would like it for my combinators and thue libraries)
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03:13:23 <\oren\> esoteric programming language incorporating an esoteric human language as the naming scheme for functions, classes, etc.
03:14:31 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
03:17:37 <ais523> "A player may have no more than four knights, four bishops, four rooks, or two queens on the board at any one time, but may have as many as fifteen kings."
03:17:40 <ais523> chess variants are fun
03:19:42 <shachaf> I played a game called "Chinese chess" today.
03:19:43 <ais523> ooh, here's a nice variant: black starts with 20 knights (on ranks 7, 8, and abgh6) and no other pieces, and must checkmate white within 50 moves
03:24:47 <zzo38> I know how to play Chinese chess as well
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03:33:59 <hppavilion[1]> Most programming languages are imperative. Like a dictatorship
03:34:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see a Democracy-oriented programming language (one that's still deterministic)
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05:04:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44678&oldid=44592 * 168.1.6.22 * (+0) /* Keywords */
05:36:20 <zzo38> Other chess variants can involve hidden information, randomness (before the game starts, during the game, or both), more than two players, more than two dimensions, more than one piece per cell, etc.
05:39:33 <adu> ais523: ever heard of Shogi?
05:39:48 <ais523> adu: yes, I've even played it
05:40:24 <adu> ais523: I brought back a board from Japan, I think I've played it once in this country
05:40:51 <ais523> IIRC I made my own set out of cardboard
05:41:02 <adu> not as fun
05:41:04 <ais523> I can't even really remember the rules now though
05:41:44 <zzo38> I know how to play shogi too
05:42:14 <adu> ais523: all the pieces look the same, so you can capture your opponents pieces and use them as your own
05:42:30 <zzo38> I also play tsumeshogi
05:43:03 <adu> that was always my favorite Shogi rule
05:43:21 <adu> oh, and the superbishops and superrooks
05:43:25 <izabera> try this in bash PS1='${a[=]}'
05:44:53 <adu> izabera: no thanks
05:47:39 <zzo38> What does that code mean?
05:48:30 <adu> it doesn't mean anything
05:48:42 <adu> when I do run it I get "bash: =: syntax error: operand expected (error token is "=")"
05:48:44 <izabera> PS1 is the prompt string, ${a[ ]} is any array, = is used as the subscript and it's a syntax error in math
05:49:25 <izabera> well yes but the point is that bash is stupid and it reprints that error over and over and you have to kill it
05:49:33 <zzo38> adu: Yes, that is what I got; it repeated the message forever until I used the SIGKILL menu to stop it.
05:50:05 <adu> I just did echo ${a[=]}
05:50:09 <adu> because I know what PS1 does
05:51:02 <adu> izabera: try this in bash: rm -rf /
05:51:29 <izabera> rm: it is dangerous to operate recursively on ‘/’
05:51:31 <izabera> rm: use --no-preserve-root to override this failsafe
05:51:45 * adu *facepalm*
05:52:13 <adu> izabera: when you get a blue screen, then you know it's working
05:52:51 <zzo38> And then push the F92359825 key.
05:53:23 <izabera> i don't think i'd get a blue screen, btw
05:54:09 <izabera> i already tried that in virtual machines and the shell is still perfectly working
05:54:41 <izabera> you have to umount /proc and a few things first but it works
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05:56:19 <ais523> the funny thing is, although not implementing rm -rf / makes perfect sense
05:56:26 <ais523> there's some row about whether it's permitted by the standards
05:56:39 <ais523> I think it might have been the BSD people who pointed out that deleting the current directory is allowed to be a special case
05:56:51 <ais523> and a recursive delete on / necessarily includes the current directory
05:56:55 <ais523> (although they were wrong, because of chroot)
05:57:09 <izabera> well, you surely should be able to do this rm -rf /*
05:57:32 <zzo38> If the root directory is the current directory, then yes
05:59:16 <Jafet> A hot issue for all the programmers who rely on POSIX conforming behaviour for rm -rf /
05:59:25 <ais523> izabera: stop trying to get people to recursively delete their root filesystem (and everything mounted on it)
05:59:45 <ais523> Jafet: I'm trying to think of a situation where that's useful
05:59:56 <ais523> adu: stop trying to get people to recursively delete their root filesystem (and everything mounted on it)
06:00:05 <ais523> the only situation I can think of involves a chroot
06:01:36 <pikhq> ais523: Good thing POSIX doesn't specify chroot.
06:01:54 <ais523> pikhq: huh, it doesn't?
06:02:02 <ais523> it always feels kind-of random as to what is and isn't in POSIX
06:02:03 <pikhq> Oh, wait, it does.
06:02:20 <ais523> but you'd think POSIX would at least need to be aware of it, so as to remark on the security implications
06:02:29 <pikhq> It *removed* it as of 2001.
06:02:49 <pikhq> It was deprecated in earlier versions.
06:05:37 <ais523> what was the deprecation reason? security-related? "not everyone can implement this"-related?
06:07:39 <ais523> Linux has now managed to conjure up a way for non-root to do chroot
06:07:44 <ais523> (the user namespaces thingy)
06:08:10 <ais523> user namespaces are almost certainly going to be a fountain of security bugs, and some distros are refusing to enable them because of that, but they're really useful for Web of Lies so I'm in favour
06:29:08 <izabera> i believe sie meant internet of things
06:29:46 <zzo38> This tsume shogi game is difficult for me! However I have managed to figure out the first 84 levels, at least.
06:30:09 <zzo38> (There are 200 levels in total)
06:34:22 <zzo38> Another kind of card of Magic: the Gathering can be: "Enchanted permanent loses all supertypes."
06:42:45 <adu> ais523: izabera: I wasn't "trying to get people" to do anything, it was a humorous rebuttle
06:43:31 <ais523> Sgeo_: formerly known as The Secret Project, but it became less secret over time
06:54:12 <zzo38> I have once seen the answer of a Magic: the Puzzling that I guess may have involved making a decision for an opponent's Forgotten Lore spell. I have idea do the similar thing with opponent's Fact or Fiction spell.
06:54:37 <ais523> is there any M:tG effect that forces an opponent to cast a spell?
06:54:48 <ais523> (I vaguely remember a spell called Word of Command)
06:54:55 <ais523> Mindslaver/Worst Fears doesn't count for this
06:54:56 <zzo38> Yes, Word of Command is it.
06:55:24 <zzo38> That is what I thought of too when you asked the question
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08:01:39 <zzo38> I happen to have defined a macro in TeX with the following heading: \def\dohead#1#2.#3#4(#5)(#6)(#7)<#8> #9\par{
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12:14:06 <lifthrasiir> hmm, I should have mentioned before, but there was the International Aheui Conference on 2015-10-09 (local time)
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14:26:12 <HackEgo> kallisti/kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity.
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15:05:32 <boily> Jafellot. please refrain from smacking bots. they may revolt.
15:08:46 <int-e> fungot: do you agree?
15:08:46 <fungot> int-e: too many students working with howard carter when he excavated the tomb of amenhotep ii: the quickening is the sequel to the popular film, returns to help of the british know all about time travellin' through the door
15:09:16 <int-e> fungot: sounds like a maybe to me...
15:09:17 <fungot> int-e: to the worm he's actually right, the village, you spend the night, but this is the way, myth, god created the universe, a better universe! we choose only die fittest people, animals, a mad skeletal in some depictions, this transition can take place anywhere, and a killer taipan
15:09:40 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs* jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
15:09:56 <int-e> . o O ( The lair of the killer taipan )
15:13:24 <fungot> Selected style: discworld (a subset of Terry Pratchett's Discworld books)
15:13:31 <fungot> FreeFull: " endos?" said rincewind patiently. " of course he'll object. that's what i'm saying. what was going to say, '
15:14:13 <int-e> (I'm thinking of endomorphisms, but how did they end up in the Discworld Category?)
15:14:33 <FreeFull> http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Endos
15:15:02 <b_jonas> int-e: no, Endos as in the extraterrestrial race of Endo from ICFP 2007 http://save-endo.cs.uu.nl/
15:15:15 <b_jonas> who's probably named after endomorphisms.
15:15:45 <int-e> fungot: pLeAsE LeArN SoMe cApItAlIzAtIoN, tWh.aPiTaLiZaTiOn.
15:15:45 <fungot> int-e: granny stood up. there was always a nice day, so they only needed three. might as well please himself and he'd henceforth stuck to the other.
15:15:57 <boily> The Lair of the Killer Taipan. I could watch a movie titled like that.
15:16:52 <int-e> (C-j is right next to C-k on the keyboard, sigh...)
15:17:17 <HackEgo> sandcoin sefcoin kelcoin spacencecoin limalcoin clecoin bagedcoin galcoin scabracoin wunacoin grassencoin tropycoin witchilcoin hypersetcoin greeivecoin jumptealcoin hisesocoin dupilcoin alacoin ecodantincoin
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15:31:25 <int-e> hmm, "idkwcom" <-- interpretations welcome
15:31:48 <boily> I don't kill wild cows on Moon?
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15:33:37 <int-e> google has 10 results... fewer than I expected
15:34:27 <int-e> (but I bet the first hit's intended meaning was "I don't know what came over me")
15:35:39 <oerjan> i don't know what idkwcom could ostensibly mean
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15:39:39 <lambdabot> ENVA 111520Z 26004KT 0200 R09/0375V0600N R27/0350V0550N FG VV000 05/05 Q1028 RMK WIND 670FT 29004KT
15:41:02 <lambdabot> LOWI 111520Z 07010KT 040V110 9999 FEW030 BKN075 12/07 Q1012 NOSIG
15:41:17 <int-e> nice,no rain, no fog, and warmer.
15:41:33 <int-e> much less windy too
15:42:27 <int-e> Oh, VV is a fun one. "Clouds cannot be seen because of fog or heavy precipitation, so vertical visibility is given instead."
15:43:00 <int-e> Especially when the following number is 0... wtf.
15:43:06 <oerjan> VV000 also looks about right, yeah
15:46:40 <boily> VV000??? woooah...
15:46:48 <lambdabot> CYUL 111500Z 24013G19KT 30SM FEW025 BKN085 BKN100 14/08 A2975 RMK CF1AC5AC2 CF TR SLP074
15:46:58 <boily> oh, right. I'm not in CYUL.
15:47:01 <lambdabot> CYQB 111500Z 24011KT 5SM -SHRA BR FEW008 SCT020 OVC050 08/07 A2971 RMK ST2SC2SC4 VIS LWR NW-N SLP063
15:47:11 <int-e> oerjan: I'm now imagining fish swimming outside your window. How accurate is that? ;-)
15:47:14 <boily> woohoo! still warmer than Oerjanland!
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15:49:35 <oerjan> int-e: not very accurate.
15:50:14 <oerjan> ok it's hundreds of feet, i suppose VV000 might be a _little_ low, but it doesn't say how visible the cutoff should be...
15:50:41 <oerjan> this would be easier if i had any kind of intuition for distance measures.
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15:52:11 <oerjan> i can make out the parking lot, the neighboring house, the kindergarten on the other side of the road from it, but not the forest behind that.
15:53:07 <oerjan> except barely that one tall tree
15:54:23 <oerjan> boily: i guess we may have snow any day now
15:56:55 <boily> are you sure that tall tree in the fog is a tree?
15:58:53 <int-e> ok, no fish then... unless they're lurking in the distance waiting for a chance to pounce.
15:59:20 <oerjan> it looks pretty tree-shaped and not at all like http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140611
16:00:01 <int-e> well that doesn't look like a fish either ;)
16:01:06 <oerjan> that was a response to boily, not you.
16:01:41 <oerjan> i don't recall any suitable fish monsters in GG at the spot
16:01:41 <boily> it still doesn't look like a fish either :)
16:01:48 <boily> there's a horse monster.
16:02:09 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, wasn't there a fish species in buck godot... maybe?!
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16:02:31 <oerjan> i dunno, it's been a while
16:02:33 * int-e has read too many webcomics...
16:03:59 <int-e> no... the winslow doesn't look like a fish either
16:05:42 <oerjan> there's this unfortunate guy http://yafgc.net/comic/0037-surf-n-turfed/
16:06:24 <int-e> oh well, learned something useful... http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MagikarpPower (the japanese legend)
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18:33:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44679&oldid=44219 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
18:34:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44680&oldid=44679 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* Brainf*** equivalence */
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20:22:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44681&oldid=44350 * SuperJedi224 * (+274) /* Unary Operators */
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20:44:43 <hppavilion1> We should make up an Esoteric Citation Format and start citing things on the Wiki using it
20:48:53 <hppavilion1> It should be parsable by machines easily, and should be human-readable. XML-based, perhaps?
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20:50:17 <hppavilion1> Also, someone needs to make a page on Funge98. We only have a page on Befunge93, and that makes me sad
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22:55:11 <zzo38> No you should make the citation format using MediaWiki and not using XML, if it is going to be use in wiki then you will need to make it used MediaWiki.
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23:32:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44682&oldid=44681 * SuperJedi224 * (+46) /* Common Logarithm */
23:32:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44683&oldid=44682 * SuperJedi224 * (+46) /* Natural Logarithm */
23:32:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44684&oldid=44683 * SuperJedi224 * (-6) /* Square Root */
23:32:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44685&oldid=44684 * SuperJedi224 * (+28) /* Cube Root */
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23:45:42 <boily> I feel scrambled...
23:51:18 <oerjan> wtf have my s'es started to whistle
23:54:51 <oerjan> i just discovered my s'es sound like whistles tdnh
23:55:00 <oerjan> as in, they didn't used to
23:56:05 <oerjan> i was at the dentist thursday. but i'm pretty sure it wasn't there earlier today.
00:13:24 <boily> you were on the dentist? kinky.
00:14:00 <zgrep> boily: Apparently it's at.
00:14:12 <zgrep> Oh, nevermind the nevermind.
00:14:36 <zgrep> "i was aton the dentist thursday" seems to be the correction...
00:14:44 <boily> zgrellop. weird stuff happen in Norway.
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00:26:43 <\oren\> my gramma is a dentist
00:27:06 <zgrep> I first read that as "grammar".
00:28:00 <boily> I like my dentist's assistants. they are... uh... well cushioned?
00:38:23 <oerjan> your gramma is atrocious tdnh
00:39:22 <boily> Atrocious Grammas and the Cushions. I could listen to a band titled like that.
00:40:33 <oerjan> if they make songs without the letter s, i can be the vocalist hth
00:42:23 <oerjan> in the meantime i can sing All I want for Christmas
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02:12:22 <boily> hppavilion[1]: uhm. there's a capital lettered animal in your quit message.
02:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Don't call it "Plagiarism". Call it "Sharing Ideas"
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02:14:14 <oerjan> boily: clearly his overuse of capitals is metastasizing tdnh
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02:21:27 <boily> I was going to command you for your brilliant renewal of the capitanimalism :D
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02:22:21 <boily> lifthellorasiir! understand the walrus. goo goo g'joob.
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02:24:50 <zzo38> Is "capitanimalism" even a real word?
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02:35:01 <tswett> I was upon the dentist Thursday.
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03:16:47 <hppavilion[1]> How should I implement Thue-like structures into my programming language?
03:21:06 <oerjan> thue has only strings hth
03:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I know. I want to include some less common areas of programming in my language, and Thue is a brilliantly strange way to program
03:53:52 <zzo38> Do you have the support of macros so far?
04:04:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44686&oldid=44678 * 61.230.112.197 * (+0) /*Changed command CAN HAZ to CAN HAS*/
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04:35:24 <zzo38> My calendar program in TeX already implements Julian and Gregorian calendar, and Discordian, and you can even do the Zork calendar, and you can calculate Easter and many other special days, although some things are currently missing, including other alternative calendars, Orthodox Easter, equinoxes/solstices, phase of moon, and September of 1752.
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04:38:30 <zzo38> Full ephemerides for Sun and Moon (relative to Earth) would be sufficient to calculate many of the things you might want to put on a calendar.
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09:23:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[G*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44687&oldid=44673 * 176.93.11.225 * (-5)
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10:35:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CompressedFuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44688 * LegionMammal978 * (+2364) Created page with "CompressedFuck, made by [[User:LegionMammal978]] in 2015, is yet another compression scheme for [[brainfuck]], designed to be at most half the size of the original program for..."
11:41:00 <myname> tkcd - change your directory with an ugly gui
11:42:28 <tswett> balletinism's balketinis's
11:42:40 <tswett> speckliness specklinses
11:43:16 <tswett> proclassioned proclassioned
11:43:27 <tswett> archervastical archeradnigati
11:43:46 <tswett> accompliqued accomplimes
11:44:04 <tswett> abstrusively abstrusievly
11:44:08 <tswett> decessition decessition
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12:23:27 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
12:23:32 <b_jonas> `` words --help | tail -n+3
12:23:33 <HackEgo> options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger datasets more influential \ -o, --target-offset change the t
12:23:42 <HackEgo> cordez herdireastetrica patercipartschwail limetheratioh husbannadrestin discorhalettaquc paamacadged tfcythrushbwned heutsely madjourchieb altykkertirawdahiruno mcewaldatrvitang ttfeltereophiametener seasaramardt modamentidey solerechiar chingintelebute anontempjenko upolivodovectig mether
12:26:17 <HackEgo> treakimmerchgebil expecifier brudginized vvesensivergste encologyrumquat sootenbulpincruti threethneruhensult dkakardinolounton fredupliamingebilier loanial happortainfedeo selfpectea vourgeomentu cecijiaminize allschwelnyellio pampartsoudhirsit
12:46:38 <fizzie> I think this conversation has been thoroughly brudginized by now.
12:47:36 <\oren\> argh, why does nayone buy a rolex
12:48:19 <\oren\> "Oh, look at me, I have an obsolete mechanical clock made of fetishized metals on my wrist!"
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13:03:40 <Taneb> \oren\: why is gold used as a method of exchange?
13:04:14 <Taneb> It's because people attach meaning to rolexes, and that meaning is "I am rich."
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13:39:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: to signal their richness. the same as why they buy designer men's suits that cost ten times as much as normal suits, with practically a price tag left on them, and are no better at all, i.e. they are still unwashable so you have to pay to dry clean the trousers all the time. Or very expensive cars.
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14:10:49 <Taneb> Wow, I've grown up a bit since I first appeared here
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15:22:44 <izabera> there are three men on a boat
15:22:53 <izabera> they have four cigarettes but no matches
15:22:58 <izabera> how do they manage to smoke?
15:24:58 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CznhMGD0hwc
15:28:42 <gamemanj> Did they have the materials for such a thing on-hand?
15:31:27 <gamemanj> what does smoke have to do with less weight?
15:32:27 <izabera> how much lighter? the weight of a cigarette
15:33:54 <Taneb> gamemanj: it plays on the double-meaning of "lighter", firstly meaning "less in weight", secondly as in "a tool for setting things on fire2
15:34:37 <gamemanj> oh... ofc... they "make the boat a cigarette lighter"
15:40:26 <oerjan> @tell boily you may need to mapole around a bit. see the logs.
15:41:03 <Taneb> Earlier I was in an Eodermdrome lecture and now I am in a Z lecture
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17:30:27 <b_jonas> http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/battle-zendikar-update-bulletin-2015-10-09 Battle for Zendikar Update Bulletin
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18:14:07 <Taneb> Let's see if this works
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18:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> How about a language where the parser generates an ASdG (Abstract Syntax /Directed Graph/)
18:56:01 <hppavilion[1]> Language revolves around graph rewriting (Kolmogorov Machine-based) and control flow only available by nesting instruction inside themselves
19:00:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44689&oldid=44675 * 90.201.129.135 * (+0)
19:01:16 <nortti> I knew it was a bf derivative
19:06:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44690&oldid=44689 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-76)
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19:32:37 <zzo38> Yawgatog isn't updated with the rule changes yet
19:46:12 <coppro> zzo38: the new CR are not out yet
19:52:11 <b_jonas> yes, the CR has to go through the editors after the rules manager approves the rules changes and publishes the rules bulletin
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20:10:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44691&oldid=44690 * Flawr * (+515)
20:12:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44692&oldid=44691 * Flawr * (+5)
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20:14:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44693&oldid=44692 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (-3)
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20:15:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44694&oldid=44693 * VTCAKAVSMoACE * (+0)
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20:16:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44695&oldid=44694 * Flawr * (+0)
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20:19:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShadyAsFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44696&oldid=44695 * Flawr * (+0)
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21:56:28 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘:|’
21:56:28 <lambdabot> ‘:+’ (imported from Data.Complex),
21:57:20 * oerjan just discovered that the NonEmpty monad is lazy in >>='s first argument, you you can do fix (>>= 1 :| [1])
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22:24:40 <tswett> Y'know, a perfectly fine answer to the cigarette riddle would have been "They used a cigarette lighter."
22:29:08 <shachaf> tswett: that's iggrammatical tdnh
22:31:39 <tswett> "There are three men on a boat. They have four cigarettes but no matches. How do they manage to smoke?"
22:32:18 <tswett> Alternatively, maybe they lit the cigarettes and then threw all their matches overboard. You don't need a match to smoke if your cigarette is already lit.
22:32:48 <tswett> shachaf: your opinion is hereby overruled.
22:33:46 <tswett> Or they could have had any of various firemaking devices and/or substances aboard.
22:35:41 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] I think your ASDG idea sounds really interesting, and I hope you go through with it.
22:39:26 <tswett> I find that there's something interesting about the fact that in Magic, if you say "I cast such-and-such" and put the card on the stack before tapping your lands for mana, and you change your mind, your opponent is effectively required to let you take it back.
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22:40:45 <tswett> Nothing requires you to pay for the spell, and if you don't pay for the spell, the game reverts to before you cast it.
22:42:25 <ais523> tswett: apparently there was a bug recently that let you attempt to cast any card even if you weren't legally allowed to, which let you, say, cast cards from your opponent's library to find out what they were
22:42:36 <ais523> (the game would then automatically rewind because you couldn't legally cast it)
22:42:53 <tswett> Yup, I'm reading about that.
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22:44:32 <tswett> It looks to me like the rules don't actually state when it's legal to *propose* the casting of a spell.
22:45:46 <tswett> As far as I know, it would work perfectly well to say that you can propose the casting of a spell card if and only if you can look at it.
22:50:51 <zzo38> I thought it is legal as long as some rule or effect gives you permission to cast that spell, and you must have priority. Also, the rules say you can't rewind stuff dealing with library anyways, so you can't do the trick they mentioned anyways. At least, that is what it look like to me; perhaps it is wrong.
22:51:31 <zzo38> (But there is another problem: Before you propose casting it you won't even know if that card is a land or not.)
22:53:45 <tswett> So I came up with yet another idea for how Cave would work.
22:54:12 <tswett> Actually, I don't think this was the channel in which I came up with ideas in the first place.
22:55:18 <tswett> Cave. Basic Land – Cave. T: Add 1 to your mana pool. While Cave is on the battlefield, "Cave" counts as one of the basic land types among lands you control.
22:57:08 <ais523> that's been suggested and rejected already
22:57:13 <ais523> I forget what the reason was
22:58:38 <zzo38> Another idea is like that but remove the "basic" supertype, and instead add the characteristic ability to have the "basic" supertype in all zones but not in the sideboard.
23:07:12 <ais523> why would not being basic in the sideboard matter
23:07:28 <ais523> also, what if you start with 10 copies in your deck, but sideboard 5 of them out? your deck suddenly becomes illegal
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23:54:15 <tswett> My neural net has discovered homotopy type theory.
23:54:23 <tswett> "univalence's univalence's"
23:54:38 <tswett> "Univalence" is not one of the words in the training set (nor, of course, is "univalence's").
00:00:45 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about univalence?
00:00:45 <fungot> fizzie: ' yeah, but---' he
00:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> sounds like he won't talk for fear of shadowy reprisals
00:11:05 <fizzie> fungot: You're among friends here, you can say whatever you like.
00:11:05 <fungot> fizzie: s/ this parts/ these fnord?
00:11:16 <fizzie> fungot: Be that way then.
00:11:17 <fungot> fizzie: to do the intuitive notions of " what something is" is.
00:13:45 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: you wouldn't force ml upon that group of programmers with ocaml, and cl
00:15:39 <fungot> Phantom_Hoover: so you can understand a price premium
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00:35:33 <tswett> quarterlier quarterlion
00:36:29 <tswett> "Would you like us to put this quarterpanther in your quarters?" "No, I prefer something much quarterlier. Please give me a quarterlion."
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00:58:20 <tswett> horsefatherist's horsefurtatles's
00:59:55 <tswett> "Oh yeah, those were my father's uncle's father's father's grandfather's horse's father's great-grandfather's father's father's horsefatherist's horsefurtatles's coarse potatoes."
01:00:25 <tswett> epycriptic egripcritic
01:00:38 <tswett> Man, it really should have misremembered it as "epicryptic"!
01:04:44 <tswett> suburbanced suburbandad
01:13:57 <tswett> butterfuckers butterfuckens
01:14:11 <tswett> `loudly butterfuckers!
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01:48:38 * ais523 is amused at Wikipedia containing a transliteration of Notepad's incorrect decoding of "bush hid the facts"
01:48:56 <ais523> it makes it look almost as if the replacement text is meaningful
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02:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> This is my favorite irc channel discovery since finding out about this one
02:38:15 <zzo38> The program xdvi is using only the first page number register of each page; how to make it to use the other page number registers too?
02:43:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44697&oldid=44686 * Hppavilion1 * (+108) Removed the LOLSPEAK that some troll filled this article with
02:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> (the joke was too good not to make. Don't worry, I didn't /actually/ vandalize the article, I just added some history so the edit would take)
02:46:22 <zzo38> Which article did you not valdalize?
02:49:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44698&oldid=43792 * Oerjan * (-4) some proofreading
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02:50:08 <zzo38> The "Appendix D: Dirty Tricks" of the TeXbook is not dirty and tricky enough.
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02:55:59 * oerjan was briefly worried that an anonymous IP changed most of the spec of Hyperfunge
02:56:12 <oerjan> but it turns out to be the same ip that created it
03:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44699&oldid=43751 * Oerjan * (+627) Some proofreading, table
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03:10:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44700&oldid=43919 * Oerjan * (+0) section case
03:10:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44701&oldid=44700 * Oerjan * (+0) Um, and that one.
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03:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44702&oldid=43942 * Oerjan * (+63) Some proofreading
03:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Niblet]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44703&oldid=43886 * Oerjan * (+57) Some proofreading
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03:40:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44704&oldid=43827 * Oerjan * (+5) link, case
03:44:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44705&oldid=44536 * Oerjan * (+23) Some proofreading
03:50:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LindenMASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44706&oldid=43830 * Oerjan * (+31) Some proofreading
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03:52:53 <zzo38> Another kind of card: "~ can block as though any number of objects had no abilities."
03:53:23 <ais523> zzo38: trying to make a creature that can block anything?
03:54:04 <ais523> although I'm not sure it works, imagine someone had cast a sorcery "creatures can't block this turn" earlier in the turn
03:54:26 <ais523> by the time you have to choose blockers, that's an effect, not an ability
03:55:31 <zzo38> Yes, it won't do that, but it is still something
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03:56:12 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen the card Flash Foliage? it uses a different technique to block anything (unless it has hexproof or a similar ability)
03:57:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Sclipting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44707&oldid=43836 * Oerjan * (+54) unsigned
03:57:07 <zzo38> Now I have, but that is a different kind of thing. Still there is that similarity.
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04:04:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pada]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44708&oldid=40541 * Oerjan * (+450) Putting deleted thoughts here
04:06:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pada]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44709&oldid=43847 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Examples */ link
04:18:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pb]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44710&oldid=43854 * Oerjan * (+0) grm
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04:34:54 <hppavilion[1]> We should create an in-depth article on Mapoles on the wiki
04:35:26 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should create an Esolang:Lore page and put all the stupid history as a subpage of that?
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04:48:58 <zzo38> Does it need a new namespace?
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05:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44711&oldid=44227 * Oerjan * (+2) link
05:13:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44712&oldid=43907 * Oerjan * (+10) bold, link and uncensor
05:18:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NSFW]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44713&oldid=43908 * Oerjan * (-33) wikify
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05:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I meant potentially under the main namespace, but then people might think "Lore" is the name of an esolang, or someday want to make an Esolang /named/ "Lore"
05:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> It's amazing in mathematics that you can find something akin to the Prime Factorization of a number for fucking /polynomials/
06:04:07 <\oren\> well i think there's a theorem or something that any system that has multiplication and division that behave in certain ways will have a prime-like thing
06:11:22 <\oren\> hmmm well not all rings have primes... and not all fields either. I'm not sure what the conditions that cause primes to exist are
06:13:19 <myname> i'd guess infinitely many objects and an order?
06:20:05 <myname> maybe you need countably infinitely many objects
06:23:11 <myname> or you need a smallest object
06:23:21 <myname> du hyperreals have primes?
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06:26:32 <myname> well, i guess the real numbers in hyperreals don't have an order there are away from epsilon
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08:12:14 <Taneb> Ugh, Girl Genius is down
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08:18:00 <ais523> `` quote 107 # <-- http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/13/business/media/nudes-are-old-news-at-playboy.html?_r=0
08:18:01 <HackEgo> 107) <ais523> reading playboy for the articles actually seems plausible nowadays <ais523> after all, there's porn all over the internet, why would you /pay/ for it
08:18:18 <ais523> apparently playboy agree with me, they've decided to remove the porn and just keep the articles
08:18:58 <ais523> I was not predicting that at the time I made the quote…
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08:29:08 * mroman is writing a CPU simulator in plain assembler
08:29:43 <mroman> completely. from scratch.
08:30:09 <mroman> (which means I gotta implement my own versions of some libc functions)
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08:31:40 <mroman> but does anyone have any idea how I can embed debug symbols with nasm?
08:32:00 <mroman> nasm -g -f elf -Fstabs main.asm
08:32:02 <mroman> doesn't seem to really work
08:33:16 <mroman> or do I need to declare these functions as global
08:35:04 <fizzie> It should work; I've had it work.
08:35:13 <fizzie> Although possibly as -Fdwarf.
08:36:19 <mroman> linker stripped symbols :D
08:36:36 <mroman> does the usual stack frame thing expect that esp does not change?
08:36:56 <mroman> it seems like if you do any push then the back trace get's mangled
08:37:22 <mroman> http://codepad.org/m95R4ri8
08:37:27 <mroman> those in ?? are actually arguments
08:37:52 <fizzie> Could be. Normally you'd need the annotations, and NASM couldn't really generate those automatically.
08:39:21 <mroman> my esp changes when I save registers to the stack
08:40:11 <mroman> but I mean that's the way it should be anyway
08:40:24 <mroman> push ebp; mov ebp, esp; add esp, SIZEOF(locals);
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08:41:43 <mroman> eip = 0x804808a in str_len_loop; saved eip 0x1
08:42:48 <fizzie> If gdb thinks you've got debugging information, it might ignore ebp, since -fomit-frame-pointer is so common. Who knows.
08:43:36 <fizzie> I don't see any way of manually doing the CFI annotations in NASM, though.
08:44:59 <mroman> I'd thought gdb looks at the value of ebp
08:45:15 <mroman> 0xbffff504:0xbffff5200x080480ac0x080490d40x00000000
08:45:20 <mroman> because ebp is correct
08:45:29 <mroman> ...520 is the saved ebp
08:45:36 <mroman> 80480ac is the return address
08:45:46 <fizzie> Yes, but how would it know it's correct, except with some random sanity-check heuristics?
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08:46:49 <mroman> but if it's not looking at ebp at what is it looking?
08:47:41 <mroman> oh it's looking at ESP
08:47:46 <mroman> but it assumes that no ebp on the stack is present
08:47:46 <fizzie> ESP + the DWARF CFI ("call frame information") data, which you won't have.
08:48:09 <mroman> 0xbffff4fc:0x000000010x080490d40xbffff5200x080480ac
08:48:20 <mroman> it's looking directly at esp and thinks 0x1 is the saved eip
08:48:33 <mroman> which is wrong because that's an argument that has been pushed to the stack
08:48:52 <mroman> or a local, or a saved register depending on the exact circumstances
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08:52:39 <b_jonas> fizzie: it has debug informations for most of your functions, so it knows which function stores its local variables (including next stack frame) where
08:53:08 <fizzie> b_jonas: It doesn't have debug informations if you don't give it any debug informations.
08:53:24 <b_jonas> you should compile the program with debug information, preferably with -Og -ggdb
08:53:38 <b_jonas> and libraries with debug information too
08:53:39 <fizzie> You should read the scrollback buffer.
08:53:58 <b_jonas> oh, this is the other channel
08:53:59 <fizzie> It's a handwritten piece of NASM, and there seems to be no way to annotate NASM source with DWARF CFI annotations to generate the stack frame layout information.
08:54:09 <fizzie> And it's not my problem. :)
08:56:56 <fizzie> mroman: By the way, "add esp, SIZEOF(locals)" looks very wrong, unless your SIZEOF is negative.
08:58:17 <mroman> but that was just to emphasize on that even in gcc generated Code esp changes
08:58:32 <fizzie> Yes, which is why GCC puts in the necessary debugging information.
08:58:32 <mroman> (but yes, it's doing a sub to allocate and add to clean up)
08:58:47 <mroman> so I assumed that backtraces work by relying on the ebp value
08:58:52 <mroman> because ebp usually doesn't change
08:59:07 <fizzie> ebp quite commonly doesn't have anything to do with the stack.
08:59:12 <mroman> (after the push ebp; mov ebp, esp; epilogue)
08:59:23 <fizzie> GCC enables -fomit-frame-pointer by default on -O2 and higher for x86, IIRC.
08:59:34 <mroman> fizzie: it enables it with optimizations yes
08:59:37 <int-e> using ebp as the frame pointer should be quite common on x86
08:59:54 <fizzie> Well: using it, and not using it, should both be relatively common.
09:00:06 <int-e> well... used to be, because indeed -fomit-frame-pointer has become quite standard.
09:00:21 <mroman> Can I manipulate registers in gdb?
09:00:28 <b_jonas> oh, and as usual, for these kinds of things, getting BOTH a non-ancient compiler and a non-ancient debugger helps a great deal
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09:00:52 <b_jonas> mroman: you may need to put "p " or "set variable " at the start of the gdb command for that
09:01:02 <b_jonas> of course it might break the program
09:01:07 <mroman> http://codepad.org/gqht55jS
09:01:19 <mroman> bff..520 is the saved ebp on the stack
09:01:23 <b_jonas> also, don't you mean $rsp and $rbp ?
09:01:30 <b_jonas> oh, you're debuggin x86_32
09:01:49 <fizzie> mroman: I assume it's not assuming a saved ebp, if it's not looking for a frame pointer.
09:01:56 <fizzie> You could try skipping it.
09:02:07 <mroman> well then I gotta do manual backtraces I guess
09:02:31 <mroman> unless I can configure gdb somehow to trust my ebp
09:03:36 <fizzie> If you've only got that one level of your own non-debug-info'ed functions, you could set $esp = $ebp+4 before backtracing.
09:03:40 <b_jonas> mroman: you could try to learn dwarf and write debugging information manually into your assembly code, but that's probably a pain
09:03:57 <fizzie> You could use GAS and write the .cfi_... directives.
09:04:45 <fizzie> #gdb might be able to help you switch it to trusting the frame pointer for backtraces; I couldn't find an obvious way.
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09:05:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: or rather, to avoid rewriting, you could use some other assembler that can take nasm syntax but also other stuff and extensions, such as http://yasm.tortall.net/
09:05:26 <b_jonas> then you don't hvae to change everything to gas syntax
09:07:02 <mroman> fizzie: If i'd have only one level, yes :)
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09:08:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: I looked at the Yasm manual, and "Chapter 19. dwarf2: DWARF2 Debugging Format" is completely empty, which didn't fill me with confidence.
09:09:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: hmm. yeah, while that might still mean they support the same syntax as some other assembler, but didn't care to document it, it isn't inspring much confidence.
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09:14:44 <mroman> well I could try -Fdwarf
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09:17:22 <mroman> but -Fdwarf seems to include some source information
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09:23:00 <fizzie> It's not the lack of symbol table (presumably), it's the lack of CFI.
09:23:23 <fizzie> And you can't expect a lowly assembler to generate that kind of thing for you.
09:29:52 <mroman> but assembler is god :(
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09:31:30 <mroman> It's the lack of gdb's trust for ebp
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09:42:44 <mroman> gdb can't even do proper function stepping
09:42:53 <mroman> gdb really lacks some neat features
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09:57:08 <mroman> also some better docs about linux syscalls would be nice
09:57:58 <mroman> http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/open.2.html <- I mean wtf is this
09:58:18 <mroman> that's not a syscall documentation, that's a C api documentation
10:01:25 <mroman> now I gotta grep the linux source code for the necessary values
10:04:08 <mroman> rdonly apparentely is 0
10:05:06 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, O_RDONLY is 0, O_WRONLY is 1, O_RDWR is 2, everywhere except on hurd which just wants to be different
10:05:49 <b_jonas> mroman: the constants are defined in /usr/include/bits/fcntl.h usually
10:06:04 <mroman> why didn't they just properly document the syscall interface somewhere?
10:06:10 <mroman> with all flags and values etc.
10:06:45 <b_jonas> mroman: go and submit patches if you want.
10:07:09 <izabera> do you guys know how to force a certain order for my man pages?
10:07:21 <b_jonas> izabera: by changing the manpath? try man man
10:08:05 <b_jonas> mroman: patches to man-pages. see instructions at https://www.kernel.org/doc/man-pages/contributing.html
10:08:14 <mroman> those man-pages document the C interface
10:08:33 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, and some of them do mention the values of the constants, so you can add them to other pages in a similar format
10:08:40 <mroman> (although it would also be neat to have it show the values of the constants for the C interface as well)
10:08:50 <b_jonas> mroman: see http://man7.org/linux/man-pages/man2/chmod.2.html for example, which mentions the values of the constants
10:09:42 <b_jonas> so you can add them in a similar format to other pages
10:09:43 <mroman> I guess I can ignore the mode_t if I'm not using O_CREAT
10:10:38 <b_jonas> Luckily, most of the syscalls have a C api that corresponds straightforwardly to the underlying syscall. The multiplexer system call called "socketcall" which groups like twelve different syscalls for some reason is an exception.
10:12:46 <b_jonas> mroman: I for one would rather prefer to pretend that there's _always_ a mode_t argument, it's just sometimes ignored. It's optional in the c api only for compatibility with REALLY ancient unix, which didn't have O_CREAT.
10:13:59 <mroman> open should return a fd in eax right?
10:14:34 <b_jonas> mroman: hmm wait, let me get my link for that old document that documents the unix abi
10:14:40 <mroman> is -4 somehow a special fd?
10:14:43 <b_jonas> mroman: what os and arch exactly?
10:15:53 <b_jonas> mroman: most syscalls on unix return either a normal value (often 0) or a negated errno, and glibc interprets that and puts it to errno
10:16:06 <b_jonas> the kernel can't put a value in errno, because that's a libc-only construct, and per-thread and stuff
10:16:57 <mroman> interrupted function call
10:17:06 <b_jonas> mroman: can you tell what os and arch you are on? I'll give you links
10:17:38 <b_jonas> I mean, what os and arch that particular program was compiled for
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10:18:51 <mroman> -E2 is hopefully EEXISTS?
10:19:34 <mroman> no such file or directory
10:19:50 <b_jonas> http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/errno but note that while the low numbered ones are generally the same everywhere, the hgih numbered ones are dependent on the os and possibly also the cpu
10:20:14 <b_jonas> http://refspecs.linuxbase.org/ and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executable_and_Linkable_Format have some useful links about the C abi used by unix,
10:20:47 <b_jonas> including how C types and structures are represented, function call conventions, libc functions and types, and system calls
10:20:57 <mroman> let me just touch the file
10:21:17 <mroman> why would the depend on the CPU?
10:21:31 <mroman> I mean.. those errnos are define
10:21:34 <mroman> If I compile a C program
10:21:45 <mroman> it'd be pretty bad if the errno's werent the same on somebody elses machine
10:21:53 <b_jonas> mroman: no, when I said cpu, I mean the cpu architecture
10:22:02 <mroman> that looks like a valid fd
10:22:15 <b_jonas> when you compile the program for one cpu architecture, it won't run on another cpu architecture (x86_32 vs x86_64 vs everything else)
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10:22:42 <b_jonas> if the program even starts, the numbers won't change
10:23:36 <b_jonas> Some of the abi is effectively defined only by the existing tools, not written down, but those documents I mentioned should give a good starting point about this.
10:25:02 <b_jonas> And of course note that all of that ABI stuff applies to only the functions and structures exported from separately compiled translation units, or on the boundary of the kernel and the program. Within a single compilation unit, the C compiler is allowed to optimize a lot and that can involve representing data or function calls differently.
10:25:36 <b_jonas> Which is why you need all that complicated debugging information for the debugger, and often have to remove some optimizations with -Og, to be able to inspect everything with the debugger.
10:26:31 <b_jonas> mroman: you still haven't told me what os and cpu you are on though
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10:28:30 <mroman> Linux clt-mob-t-6246 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.68-1+deb7u1 i686 GNU/Linux
10:29:09 <b_jonas> mroman: uname might not always help though, it tells about the kernel, not the particular program :-)
10:29:30 <b_jonas> so on a freebsd x86_64 machine I can run a program compiled for linux x86_32
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10:29:49 <mroman> I'm going to write a CPU simulator in bare bones assembly
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11:10:29 <Taneb> Thing I made: (vertical scale is a bit off): http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/mandelbrot.png
11:17:20 <Taneb> The program that made that ran in 87 minutes on two cores
11:18:08 <mroman> well my io_read_block seems to read a bunch of 0x00
11:18:11 <mroman> instead of actual data :(
11:18:33 <mroman> which means it read three bytes
11:18:41 <mroman> WHERE ARE MY 3 BYTES :(
11:21:02 <mroman> programmin in assembler is so fun
11:22:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44714 * SuperJedi224 * (+349) Created page with "{{Stub}} Designed by SuperJedi224, '''BotEngine''' is an upcoming 2D programming language inspired by the game [[Manufactoria]]. Execution consists of one or more "bots", eac..."
11:22:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44715&oldid=44714 * SuperJedi224 * (+38)
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11:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44716&oldid=44715 * SuperJedi224 * (+483)
11:29:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44717&oldid=44716 * SuperJedi224 * (+47) /* Instructions */
11:29:36 <b_jonas> on anagol, is there a way to tell when a problem was submitted, for an active problem?
11:29:52 <b_jonas> the homepage tells for how long it's active
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13:05:15 <Taneb> Is it possible to do logarithms in dc
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13:22:00 <int-e> I'd answer, but then the next question would be "how?"...
13:23:04 <int-e> (it's not built in, but dc is Turing complete so it's just an exercise for the interested programmer to write code that approximates logarithms to an desired precision)
13:29:03 <Taneb> Help I'm tempted to do my family tree again
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13:55:07 <int-e> . o O ( Wouldn't that be a dag? I mean, eventually... )
13:56:44 <Taneb> Pretty soon in my ancestry, two of my grandparents were first cousins
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14:20:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NSFW]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44718&oldid=44713 * 91.155.73.101 * (+13)
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15:08:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44719&oldid=44717 * SuperJedi224 * (+216)
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15:59:18 <Taneb> Who wants to see a VERY BIG IMAGE that I rendered but CANNOT SEE because it is TOO DAMN BIG
15:59:19 <Taneb> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/mandelbrot.png
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16:01:55 <mroman> http://codepad.org/LaK99cVI
16:02:02 <mroman> sadly [edx+bl] isn't a valid offset
16:03:40 <int-e> Taneb: cute, feh manages in just under 1GB... so 32 bits per pixel
16:04:45 <Taneb> My chromebook doesn't have enough memory to even try
16:06:56 <int-e> "display" uses 5GB
16:07:18 <b_jonas> Taneb: that's only 20k*10k pixels
16:07:27 <gamemanj> Wow, Firefox froze for a second or two
16:07:36 <Taneb> Took me 4 hours to render with 2 cores
16:07:50 <b_jonas> whta do you want about it?
16:07:56 <b_jonas> should I extract a rectangle or something?
16:07:59 <Taneb> I want to show it off
16:08:32 <int-e> firefox also uses about 1GB.
16:09:15 <gamemanj> but it can't really be appreciated without infinite resolution...
16:10:06 <Taneb> Infinite resolution is difficult
16:10:37 <gamemanj> in a PNG, probably not possible :)
16:10:50 <gamemanj> solution: The LLVM Image Format
16:12:07 <gamemanj> images are represented by a brainfuck program that, given two 64-bit floating point values, outputs the colour of the pixel
16:12:46 <gamemanj> not infinite resolution, but unless you want to change "floating point" to "big-decimals"...
16:14:06 <b_jonas> 64-bit floating point is definitely not infinite resolution
16:14:38 <gamemanj> now to work out how anyone would ever implement it
16:15:22 <b_jonas> but if you want nice manelbrot images and videos, there's some at http://www.madore.org/~david/math/mandelbrot.html
16:15:35 <oerjan> mandelbrot is one case where you actually _would_ want infinite resolution rather than just 64-bit. because zoooooming.
16:18:47 <gamemanj> Raytraced films that are sent as Brainfuck programs...
16:19:49 <mroman> but my str_cat is broken
16:26:19 <fizzie> Huh, I was expecting something to actually happen, but the "mem" in my silly taskbar thing just stayed at 43%. Oh well, memory use estimation is an inexact science.
16:26:25 <fizzie> (Opened it in a Chrome tab.)
16:27:09 <fizzie> There's no "find" option in Chrome's internal task manager and I've got too many tabs, I can't find it in the list.
16:28:05 <fizzie> Oh, there it is. It's using "216,608K" of memory, in a process shared by three tabs.
16:28:36 <fizzie> I have no idea how it would count something like graphical resources.
16:29:15 <fizzie> I think it's doing some sort of load-on-demand thing, because if I scroll by real fast, it takes a while to blink in.
16:29:44 <fizzie> (And actively flushing that out, because scrolling back-and-forth doesn't become fast.)
16:32:22 <fizzie> Didn't use much memory in the "zoomed-out" view, so I'm guessing it also rendered a low-res version for that.
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16:53:33 <mroman> also why's there so little things about C-- available?
16:54:24 <mroman> probably because it never really made it outside ghc
17:01:20 <b_jonas> which C--? aren't there like three different languages called that?
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17:34:29 <mroman> b_jonas: the one GHC use(s|d).
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17:41:25 <mroman> I think people have a poor understanding of why certain people are not allowed to donate blood.
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17:41:29 <mroman> Like people with cancer.
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17:44:36 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_Derivatives should be moved to its own page and the original location should become a page about what a BF derivative /is/
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17:45:52 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1] do you want to take up the torch of hating bf derivatives
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17:46:29 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I don't think I'm qualified, having made a couple.
17:46:43 <hppavilion[1]> I only feel qualified to hate derivatives that don't do enough
17:47:02 <hppavilion[1]> Derivatives that do something new and unique are cool.
17:47:42 <hppavilion[1]> Thought attempts to make it /more/ minimalistic are good.
17:48:14 <hppavilion[1]> If I were to take up the torch, I would establish a "Comittee of Brainfuck Derivative Approval", which would decide whether a given derivative deserves its own page
17:48:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phantom Hoover]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44721&oldid=20891 * Phantom Hoover * (-85) the end of an era
17:49:36 <b_jonas> I'd just purge all BF-derivatives except for brainfuck itself and Ook, with fire
17:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> What about, for example, a derivative that I'm thinking of called "ThueFuck", which is based on strings intead of integers?
18:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Essays/A Defence of Brainfuck Derivatives]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44722 * Hppavilion1 * (+1562) Started rough draft
18:05:12 <zzo38> Ook is not particularly remarkable either actually
18:05:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe it's not, but I personally would not want to anger an orang-outan
18:07:44 <zzo38> I am not the one suggesting to purge everything with fire, though.
18:10:22 <hppavilion[1]> I vote we go through the wiki and uncensor every occurense of "Brainf*ck" or "Brainf***"
18:11:00 <int-e> it's hard. occurrence
18:11:10 <nortti> alternatively, create two new languages, brainf*ck and brainf***, very unlike brainfuck, and make them point to them
18:11:28 <int-e> (I mean that, I had to check how many "r" there are in that word)
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18:13:41 <hppavilion[1]> One should be based on λ-calculus, the other on Graph Rewriting (Kolmogorov Machines possibly)
18:14:20 <nortti> tag machines are also interesting
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18:14:35 <nortti> tho there's only so much you can do with them
18:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> (I think we should require Brainf*ck and Brainf*** to be TC)
18:15:15 <nortti> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag_system
18:17:40 <nortti> expression rewriting (a lá CAS) tarpit would be interesting, too. I don't think I've seen an esolang based on it
18:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> I suggested a language where the AST is a Directed Graph instead of a tree
18:18:57 <hppavilion[1]> And Control Flow is only possible by nesting an instruction inside itself
18:19:20 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: Is expression rewriting anything like Algbebra?
18:19:39 <nortti> https://bitbucket.org/purelang/pure-lang/wiki/Rewriting ← I was thinking of this
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18:20:31 <hppavilion[1]> I /was/ thinking of adding a CAS to be builtin to my language
18:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to make a useful programming language while preserving Esolangity
18:22:13 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: The language would have importable syntax features (combinators come to mind)
18:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> You could literally do `getsynt combinators / import SK / I = SKK`
18:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> Can you think of any special syntaxes I could allow to be imported?
18:24:31 <lambdabot> LOWI 131750Z 07004KT 040V120 8000 FEW007 SCT013 BKN030 11/09 Q1011 NOSIG
18:25:05 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: how about being able to import some syntax stuff that allows for rpn?
18:25:30 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, there are special strings for embedded codes
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18:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> So to do, for example, combinators, you need a special string of something like this syntax:
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18:43:35 <nortti> [] is also used, I'd imagine
18:44:22 <hppavilion[1]> nortti: That could be confused with if the variable "combinator" is less than "SKK"
18:44:47 <hppavilion[1]> [] is used for lists and list subscripting (in a very pythonic way)
18:45:42 <hppavilion[1]> I can't think of anything that combinator{} would mean...
18:47:21 <hppavilion[1]> `getsynt thue, combinators, xml, sexpr, yaml` at LEAST
18:47:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: getsynt: not found
18:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> (A *good* IDE will syntax highlight special string)
18:49:48 <hppavilion[1]> So you can literally include XML directly into the language. That'd be used in GUI
18:50:37 <hppavilion[1]> Oh. Can't forget that there'll be some formal grammar libraries
18:55:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44723&oldid=44720 * SuperJedi224 * (+236)
18:57:35 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name of that linguistics-oriented programming language?
18:58:02 <int-e> @google linguistics-oriented programming language
18:58:04 <lambdabot> http://boole.stanford.edu/pub/lingol.html
18:58:04 <lambdabot> Title: A Linguistics Oriented Programming Language
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18:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> I've been googling for the last 10-15 minutes trying to find it
19:05:02 <myname> you lack precision on your deacription
19:06:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I was discussing a linguistics-oriented programming language. Someone sent a link. It's called "Grammar <something>"
19:07:12 <hppavilion[1]> It was too long ago to investigate my local logs. I don't know what day it was for the online logs
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19:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44724&oldid=44723 * SuperJedi224 * (+36)
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19:37:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44725&oldid=44724 * SuperJedi224 * (+68) /* Examples */
19:38:17 * ais523 finds it interesting that the computational complexity of matrix multiplication is unknown, but appears to be polynomial with a non-integer exponent between 2 and 3
19:42:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44726&oldid=44725 * SuperJedi224 * (+373)
19:44:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44727&oldid=44726 * SuperJedi224 * (+53)
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19:56:27 <zzo38> In some programs the syntax can be changed so it cannot highlight properly except if you execute the program.
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20:01:57 <zzo38> What uses can you think of for making insertion classes in TeX that use a negative multiplier and/or negative extra space skip?
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20:09:37 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a stack-based language called dijkstra for Junction
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20:21:49 <hppavilion[1]> The fuction syntax can either be, for example, "2 `sqrt" which pushes 2 on the stack then calls sqrt on it OR "2 sqrt `" which pushes 2 on the stack, pushes sqrt on the stack, then pops sqrt and calls it with 2 as its argument
20:22:25 <coppro> the latter seems more esoteric
20:22:31 <coppro> although the former is less consistent, which might be esoteric
20:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> The latter seems more strict and will lead to better code, and calling an argument on the output of a function makes more sense that way, but the former seems looks better, but it isn't as clean and if I want to do `` it's harder to implement
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22:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44729&oldid=44728 * SuperJedi224 * (+51) /* Instructions */
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23:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> (I don't like sports, but for some reason I'm always looking for ways to convert Esolang Design /into/ a sport. Guess I just don't like the physical action.)
23:24:20 <hppavilion[1]> So I thought up a new possible kind of "game" for designing esolangs
23:24:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elendiastarman * New user account
23:25:17 <\oren\> is METAFONT turing complete?
23:25:40 <oerjan> no:elendig = en:awful hth
23:27:05 <hppavilion[1]> A machine/program is used to generate a random EBNF from a set of randomly-generated/selected regex tokens
23:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> It is up to the participants/teams to take that BNF and tokens, design a language using that (some rules could allow the BNF to be extended), and, if the competition requires design a lexer, parser, and executer to execute their designed language
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23:30:22 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: allow me to once again express enthusiasm about your idea for a language where the syntax doesn't form a tree.
23:31:23 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Thank you. I thought about that on my walk home and am still attempting to figure out how that'd work
23:31:50 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: are you familiar with the concept of a context-free language/grammar?
23:32:13 <hppavilion[1]> I could do a non-looping directed graph with something like x+y*z parsing to x+y and y*z, but that can become a tree too easily
23:33:26 <tswett> Now, the thing about an unambiguous context-free language is that words in the language are in a one-to-one correspondence with parse trees in the language.
23:33:45 <tswett> And each node in the parse tree simply corresponds to a "phrase", so to speak, within that word.
23:34:07 <tswett> So one approach is to just add syntax rules which *aren't* context-free.
23:34:24 <hppavilion[1]> Yes, I believe I understood that (but I'm not sure xD)
23:35:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still attempting to figure out what a non-context-free language is, because it seems to me that ANYTHING can be expressed in BNF, which is context-free if I'm correct
23:35:43 <Jafet> A language where the program source is a set of points and the program is defined by the unique polynomial of lowest degree containing those points.
23:35:53 <tswett> Here's a language that can't be expressed in BNF: the set of all strings of digits that are the decimal expansion of a prime number.
23:36:19 <tswett> Here's another thought. Every context-free language can be represented easily as a sub-language of the "parentheses language"—do you know the language I'm talking about?
23:36:54 <tswett> Or, at least, something more powerful than a nondeterministic push-down automaton.
23:37:28 <tswett> It's the language whose words are the strings composed of "correctly matched parentheses".
23:37:44 <tswett> Here's an unambiguous grammar for it:
23:37:57 <tswett> <parens> ::= "(" <parens> ")" <parens> | epsilon
23:38:23 <tswett> So here's my thought, then.
23:38:33 <tswett> Epsilon means the empty string.
23:39:01 <tswett> Consider how you might make the parentheses language such that it has a "parse digraph" instead of a parse tree.
23:39:34 <tswett> As it currently is, every pair of parentheses has at most one pair of parentheses which is the "next layer out".
23:39:52 <tswett> So how would you make it so a pair of parentheses can have *more* than one pair of parentheses which are the "next layer out"?
23:40:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out if this leads to a "What you're suggesting is entirely illogical" and you're just trying to help me figure it out on my own xD
23:40:52 <tswett> I think there's nothing inconsistent about your idea at all.
23:41:09 <tswett> I just thought of an idea that I really like: tie points!
23:41:26 <fizzie> a^n b^n c^n, the canonical non-context-free language. :)
23:41:52 <boily> hppavellon[1], hellørjan. I think I'm active.
23:41:58 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 8h 1m 31s ago: you may need to mapole around a bit. see the logs.
23:42:18 <tswett> Here's an otherwise-normal expression with "tie points" inserted: (<1> a + b) * (c + d) * (<1> e + f)
23:42:37 <tswett> The <1>s are the tie points.
23:43:11 <tswett> Actually, let me give you a different one. Just a string, not really an expression.
23:43:23 * boily lightly mapoles izabera
23:43:43 <tswett> The tie points denote, essentially, that parsing can freely jump from one point to the other.
23:43:59 <tswett> "a" is followed immediately by "b", but "a" is *also* followed immediately by "d".
23:44:15 <tswett> "d" is preceded immediately by "c", but it's also preceded immediately by "a".
23:44:39 <hppavilion[1]> That might help towards the Multiparentheses Language
23:44:42 <tswett> Now, how you'd parse this is a difficult question...
23:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Well, you'd probably... no... maybe you could? nah... hm...
23:45:33 <tswett> 'Course, one straightforward way to "de-context-free-ify" a language is by making it so that bracket matching is denoted by something other than positioning.
23:45:47 <tswett> So here's an expression: (a + [b + c) + d]
23:46:33 <tswett> So the expression within parentheses there is... uh... um...
23:46:43 <tswett> Or, here's yet another idea.
23:47:02 <tswett> First figure out what the "parse digraphs" of your language are going to look like, then figure out how to represent that by strings of symbols.
23:47:41 <fizzie> It's not quite related, but let's mention for the record that some Schemes have syntax that lets you write non-tree s-expressions, stuff like #1=(a b #2 d #2=(x y #1))
23:47:59 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: draw.io isn't have bad.
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23:50:09 <fizzie> (I think draw.io is an offshoot of "old" (not that old) JGraph, via their JavaScript reimagining called mxGraph.)
23:50:30 <Jafet> Of course, the syntax that is used to specify non-tree programs usually consists of trees.
23:51:26 * boily equally mapoles int-e
23:53:21 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: you're not using UTF-7, are you?
23:53:32 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: tell me, what's this: -+
23:53:46 <tswett> Does UTF-7 even work that way? I don't remember.
23:53:48 <fizzie> I got that syntax wrong again, it would've been #0=(a b #1# d #1=(x y #0#)) for that example.
23:53:56 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: - is a dash and + is me pretending to be someone hitting shift too early
23:54:04 * oerjan thinks that bfjoust grammar is probably not context-free, due to nested ({})%
23:54:22 <hppavilion[1]> (Someone careless, like a <name censored> for president poster)
23:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> It should include loops, as that's the only way I can really demonstrate how this program works
23:55:06 <tswett> oerjan: that seems perfectly context-free to me.
23:56:34 <fizzie> tswett: In (a(b{c{d}e}f)%1 g)%2 the innermost {} pairs with the outermost ().
23:56:43 <oerjan> tswett: nested like this ( ( { { } } ) % ) %
23:58:38 <oerjan> back when, i figured it's the intersection of two context-free languages, one that matches brackets normally and one that matches ( to { and } to )
23:59:16 <hppavilion[1]> What's a simple program involving loops, but not too advanced for someone drawing its AS(T|G) on a laptop (so no 99 bottles of beer on the wall)
00:02:02 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: a = 5; b = 0; while (a > 0) { a -= 1; b += 2; } print(b);
00:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> Can you guys see this? https://www.draw.io/#G0ByRvNdqqy3GPejZGaGRaalotYVk
00:12:04 <fizzie> The link asks for Google Drive authorization, which not everyone would do. Probably would be best just to export.
00:12:10 <fizzie> (Going to sleep anyway, so.)
00:12:35 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I sent you a request for access... apparently.
00:22:36 <\oren\> a proportional font is one where 'm' is wider than 'i'
00:22:37 <\oren\> a monospace font is one where 'm' is the same width as 'i'.
00:23:52 <tswett> So what do you call a font where "i" is wider than "m"?
00:23:58 <\oren\> A "width-compensating" font is like a monospace font, but when you have a sequence like 'mai' the 'm' becomes wider and the 'i' smaller, thus becoming more porportional without changing the overall width of the sequence
00:25:23 <\oren\> I want to try making a width-compensating terminal font, but I don't have time
00:30:22 <\oren\> other sequnces that would be width-compensated are for example whi wri mmit
00:30:52 <\oren\> i suppose I could do it with a million ligatures
00:31:49 <boily> ligate all the widths!
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00:48:47 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: There's the ASG for a program equivalent to your code. I hope I did it right xD
00:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> (In retrospect, the word "CALL" doesn't really express what I mean. "BLOCK" would be better)
00:49:16 <tswett> Oh right, I forgot that one premise that you had.
00:49:38 <tswett> That repeating code works by having an expression literally contain itself.
00:50:14 <hppavilion[1]> It's clear that Lazy Evaluation is kind of a necessity for this xD
00:51:14 <tswett> Obviously, the graph doesn't have to be acyclic.
00:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> Was that "well obviously <x>" or "<x>, of course"?
00:52:00 <\oren\> the graph can have cycles without requiring lazy evaluation
00:52:28 <tswett> Well, by "obviously", I meant "this is true because you just gave an example of it".
00:56:41 <tswett> Now, consider this program, where tokens are separated by spaces...
00:58:14 <tswett> <block> <asgn> a 5 </asgn> <asgn> b 0 </asgn> <cond> <cexp> > a 0 </cexp> <block> <asgn> a <aexp> - a 1 </aexp> </asgn> <asgn> b <aexp> + b 2 </aexp> </asgn> </block> </cond> </block>
00:58:19 <tswett> This isn't recursive, of course.
00:58:29 <tswett> You can think of each token here as being a directive to the parser.
00:59:03 <tswett> The parser's state consists of a graph, and a reference to one of the nodes of the graph.
00:59:30 <tswett> <block> means "add a new child, a block, to the current node, then move to that node".
00:59:43 <tswett> </block> means "move from the current node, which is a block, to its parent".
00:59:55 <tswett> 5 means "add a new child, 5, to the current node, and stay at this node".
01:00:43 <tswett> So the question is, how could you modify this so that you can make an arbitrary graph instead of just a tree?
01:02:36 <tswett> Ooh, ooh. Another idea.
01:03:12 <tswett> The parser's state consists of a graph, and a *stack* of references to nodes of the graph.
01:04:11 <tswett> <block> means "create a new node, a block node, and push it onto the stack". </block> means "pop the first node (a block node) from the stack, then add it as a child to the node on top of the stack".
01:04:49 <tswett> So far, this is more or less how an ordinary deterministic push-down automaton parses a context-free language. Right?
01:05:00 <tswett> Now, just add a couple of stack manipulation commands.
01:05:59 <tswett> <block> <print> 3 </print> [DUPLICATE] </block> </block>
01:07:26 <tswett> [DUPLICATE] duplicates the reference on top of the stack, so now the block node is on top of the stack twice. Then the first </block> pops it off the stack and makes it a child of itself.
01:07:54 <hppavilion[1]> Is it possible to usefully express Algebraic Expressions in RPN?
01:08:36 <tswett> One way is this: + + 1 2 3 (or + 1 + 2 3)
01:08:43 <tswett> Wait, you said reverse.
01:09:07 <tswett> Okay. Yeah, that's not too hard, I think. Let's see.
01:09:21 <tswett> x 2 ^ 4 * x 8 * + 12 +
01:09:33 <tswett> x y * 4 * x 2 * + 2 y * + 1 +
01:09:53 <hppavilion[1]> It has to be meaningful in that you can actually do algebra on it
01:10:03 <tswett> y x 2 ^ 4 * x 8 * + 12 + =
01:10:55 <tswett> By using complex numbers.
01:11:39 <tswett> How about this polynomial: x 2 ^ x 3 * + 2 +
01:11:41 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think you need complex numbers to factor that.
01:12:16 <tswett> Well, I know that x 3 * is the same as x 2 * x +, so that polynomial is x 2 ^ x 2 * x + + 2 +.
01:12:48 <tswett> Oh, and, of course, x 2 ^ is the same as x x *, making that x x * x 2 * x + + 2 +.
01:12:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking to see if there's, for example, a SYA for algebra xD
01:13:14 <tswett> And clearly x x * x 2 * x + + is the same as x x * x 2 * + x +.
01:13:33 <tswett> That gives us x x * x 2 * + x + 2 +.
01:14:27 <tswett> Then, as everyone knows, x x * x 2 * + is the same as x x 2 + *, so now we have x x 2 + * x + 2 +.
01:15:49 <tswett> Now, x x 2 + * x + 2 + is the same as x x 2 + * x 2 + +. And x 2 + is the same as 1 x 2 + *, so now we have x x 2 + * 1 x 2 + * +.
01:16:35 <tswett> Which, obviously, is the same as x 1 + x 2 + *.
01:17:11 <tswett> Now, lemme read about the Hopf fibration.
01:32:47 <boily> you need to squish the ij together. perhaps ĸ, just to increase untypeability. and make the name end in a consonant cluster that ends in r. you want it to be trendy!
01:35:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44730&oldid=44729 * SuperJedi224 * (+77) /* Instructions */
01:35:46 <oerjan> unicode considered harmful
01:38:19 <boily> unicode is great. except when some taouin forces it into the Wisdom.
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02:16:09 <coppro> idea: a language should have the "retry;" statement for when an exception occurs
02:16:38 <adu> coppro: indeed
02:17:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minkolang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44731 * Elendiastarman * (+15103) Copied over from GitHub and formatted.
02:17:21 <adu> I find myself doing this in python quite frequently: for _ in xrange(3): try: ... break; except: continue
02:17:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minkolang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44732&oldid=44731 * Elendiastarman * (+6)
02:28:52 <coppro> adu: also, "retry;" should roll the program state back to what it was before
02:30:44 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
02:31:23 <adu> coppro: why? because that performs the same semantics as you said
02:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see a multidimensional combinatorical language
02:32:43 <hppavilion[1]> I just wonder how to make conditional directors work...
02:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm also making a language called dijkstra, which is REALLY hard to spell, pronounce, and think.
02:36:19 <adu> Unlambda+Funge98?
02:37:05 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know where | and _ and similar would get their data though...
02:37:34 * lifthrasiir actually has no idea about English's rhyme and accent
02:38:13 <lifthrasiir> for example, I'm probably unable to distinguish long i and short i at the moment
02:39:36 <coppro> lifthrasiir: I think long and short vowels are a bad teaching tool
02:39:54 <coppro> adu: in your case, any changes to global variables will be preserved
02:41:07 <pikhq> Huh. In MSVC, the following produces a macro that produces a comment: #define REM /##/
02:41:31 <pikhq> (... but not in standard C, where that produces a macro that produces a damned silly string)
02:45:41 <coppro> pikhq: doesn't it just produce an error, since // is an invalid token?
02:45:57 <coppro> it makes a token consisting of //
02:46:20 <coppro> which is then an error because it's an invalid token, *unless* it's stringified
02:47:04 <pikhq> Or if you're MSVC, then it produces a token consisting of // which is a comment.
02:47:44 <coppro> does it commentify later things in the line too?
02:48:20 <pikhq> "REM foo bar baz" is a comment after that macro in MSVC.
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02:49:31 <pikhq> I feel pretty justified in saying that Windows C is not C but a closely related language.
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02:50:46 <pikhq> To be sure it's a lot simpler writing code that conforms with ISO C and ISO C++ than it is ISO C and Windows C. :)
02:50:48 <coppro> but I bet their C++ compiler behaves the same way
02:51:01 <coppro> which means it ought to be reported as a bug
02:51:18 <pikhq> But real code uses this apparently.
02:51:30 <coppro> they only need to issue a warning about it
02:51:45 <coppro> let me conjure up a pathological case
02:52:05 <coppro> what happens if you have:
02:52:31 <coppro> #define stringify(a) #a
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02:52:52 <coppro> #define furby stringify(REM slkajdslfkssavfas)
02:53:44 <pikhq> Finally, an invocation to make MSVC go fuck off. :P
02:53:52 <pikhq> (I don't know if that actually works)
02:54:01 <coppro> pikhq: I assumed you could test
02:54:17 <pikhq> I don't have MSVC installed, I just heard about this misfeature.
02:54:24 <pikhq> I *could* install it, but meh.
02:54:30 <coppro> you might need an extra level of indirectly around the stringification macro
02:54:44 <coppro> but basically, if they wait until the preprocessor is completely done before stripping out the created // comments
02:55:02 <coppro> they can actually do it in a compliant manner *if they warn*
02:55:17 <coppro> /* however, is a different story
02:55:26 <coppro> still not a legal token
02:55:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44733&oldid=44276 * Hppavilion1 * (+2067) Non-primitives
02:57:11 <coppro> so yeah, if they're giving a diagnostic, this is compliant
02:57:52 <coppro> pikhq: you know what's worse?
02:58:06 <coppro> the situation regarding inline
02:58:17 <coppro> there is *no* portable way to inline code in C
02:59:02 <coppro> MS isn't interested in implementing C99/C11
02:59:21 <coppro> and too many people still use pre-C99 GCC
03:01:54 <pikhq> coppro: I just force -std=c99 and say "fuck 'em" mostly.
03:02:36 <pikhq> Also, most people don't use pre-C99 GCC, they use GCC with its C90 default.
03:02:41 <pikhq> Buuut that's changing soon.
03:02:47 <coppro> pikhq: I truly wish nethack could do that
03:03:10 <pikhq> GCC 5 defaults to C11.
03:03:17 <hppavilion[1]> What's the name of htat langauge that has a self-modifying interpreter?
03:03:44 <pikhq> I'd be shocked if people actually care about nethack anywhere where GCC doesn't support C99.
03:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Someone wrote an Unlambda interpeter or something in this language
03:04:13 <hppavilion[1]> But you execute the unlambda by appending it to the program
03:04:35 <hppavilion[1]> Which has, by the time the unlambda is reached, set itself to be an unlambda interpreter
03:04:40 <pikhq> (note that C99 *support* in GCC was added circa 3.0.)
03:05:57 <pikhq> coppro: Oh, fuck Windows so much.
03:06:22 <coppro> I for one would just say "use clang"
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03:06:34 <pikhq> Though at least recent MSVC actually implements the portions of C99 that are in C++11 now.
03:07:35 <hppavilion[1]> I really like that language. If only I could remember its name...
03:07:40 <coppro> pikhq: most of it, anyway
03:09:08 <hppavilion[1]> So, I mentioned this earlier, but I don't think many people were paying attention
03:11:34 <hppavilion[1]> You're given a lexer description and a randomly-generated BNF program. You design a language using that BNF.
03:15:28 <coppro> pikhq: whoa, MS supports the filesystem tr
03:33:58 <hppavilion[1]> Not to replace it, just to ensnare a few curious programmers and create a small, happy little community of its users
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03:53:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: emmental hth
03:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> I've just registered #domainspecificlanguages which is for language-oriented programming, which is a thing that looks fun
03:56:34 <hppavilion[1]> Because I couldn't find an existing IRC channel for it
04:04:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language-oriented Programming]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44734 * Hppavilion1 * (+267) Created Page as a thinly-veiled advertisement
04:07:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language-oriented Programming]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44735&oldid=44734 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) If only, if only...
04:26:34 <MDude> You're actually on #esoteric-dsl though?
04:27:08 <MDude> Esoteric DSL, for when esoteric dial-up just isn't fast enough.
05:08:00 <\oren\> I actually use a proprietary DSL to do my day job
05:08:58 <\oren\> It will eventually be released to external devs, any month now
05:10:27 <\oren\> imagine if someone reinvented yacc and integrated it with a voice recognition thingy.
05:11:07 <\oren\> so you can use arbitrary phonemes as base tokens
05:17:48 <\oren\> well actually it's not that powerful
05:18:02 <\oren\> yacc allows arbitrary grammrs
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05:21:49 <\oren\> I'm hoping b_jonas will come online
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06:18:11 <izabera> what is yuor opinion on this? return (value);
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06:54:02 <MDream> I wonder what's the least proffesional non-esoteric programming language, in the sense of being made with disregard for any sense of industry practices.
06:59:36 <MDream> Maybe the best reason I've heard for getting a Unixlike system.
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07:51:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: I see you have over 400 hanzi/kanji
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08:17:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: can I request characters to the font still? 百 万
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08:40:18 <fizzie> My opinion of `return (value)` is approximately the same as my opinion of `sizeof (expr)`.
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08:55:21 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? why? sizeof has a much higher precedence than return
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09:32:47 <Taneb> I have no intuition for what is a suitable master's project or not
09:39:59 <fizzie> b_jonas: I wouldn't even say return has a precedence. It's not an operator.
09:41:10 <fizzie> Anyway, I'd guesstimate that in the large majority of `sizeof expr`s the precedence isn't questionable. I mean, usually it's just sizeof *p.
09:42:29 <fizzie> Or even just `sizeof x`.
09:45:06 <fizzie> Taneb: You should look at lists of examples.
09:45:27 <Taneb> fizzie: doesn't help my intuition
09:45:33 <Taneb> My plan is to use other people's intuitiomns
09:46:01 <fizzie> I'm sure if you'd look at them long enough, PATTERNS would EMERGE.
09:46:09 <fizzie> fungot: What's a good master's project?
09:46:09 <fungot> fizzie: stalin comes very close to the machine
09:46:30 <Taneb> So, I should implement a Stalin AI?
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09:47:43 <fizzie> That's a nice ambiguity. Is it an AI written in the Stalin dialect, or an AI that behaves like Stalin?
09:48:21 <Taneb> I was assuming the latter
09:48:57 <fizzie> I think fungot might have been talking about the former.
09:48:57 <fungot> fizzie: but it was still under a fair amount from that, that was a wrapper over fluids.
09:51:01 <Taneb> Anyway, I'm going to send an email to the person who would likely supervise it regarding whether my idea is appropriate
09:54:58 <Taneb> I don't need to decide until Spring, but talking about it early is probably a good idea
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11:09:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44736&oldid=44730 * SuperJedi224 * (+31) /* Instructions */
11:16:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44737&oldid=44736 * SuperJedi224 * (+150)
11:16:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44738&oldid=44737 * SuperJedi224 * (+33)
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12:42:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44739&oldid=44738 * SuperJedi224 * (+130)
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13:38:12 <HackEgo> [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE]
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14:18:01 <Taneb> How do I find a polynomial that a given (algebraic) number is a root of?
14:19:43 <Taneb> Like I know it as a sum of roots
14:23:14 <jameseb> Taneb: I would compute all the powers up to the highest root order and play around with the resulting expressions to eliminate extraneous terms
14:23:19 <mroman> depends on the degree?
14:23:39 <int-e> If p and q are polynomials with integer coefficients and if p(x) has roots a1..an and q(x) has roots b1..bm then prod(x-ai-bj, 1 <= i <= n and 1 <= j <= m) has integer coefficients again...
14:23:42 <Taneb> izabera: I'd rather the coefficients be rational
14:24:19 <int-e> hmm. monic polynomials...
14:25:16 <int-e> but while I know this is true, it's based on a theory of symmetric polynomials, and I'm not sure whether I could reconstruct all the steps of a proof.
14:27:20 <int-e> (one indicator - but not a proof - is that you can rewrite that product as prod(p(x-bi), 1 <= i <= m) and also also as prod(q(x-ai), 1 <= i <= n), and the first product is independent of the ai and the second one is independent of the bi.)
14:29:05 <int-e> hmm, Carlsen is having an awful day.
14:30:07 <int-e> (in the chess world blitz championship) 3 draws, 2 losses so far.
14:32:55 <mroman> I was surprised by seeing how many games actually end in a draw.
14:34:04 <mroman> My lose rate is 100% so far :(
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15:09:49 <oerjan> today's xkcd finally explains it all
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15:24:26 <oerjan> int-e: also GG has updated hth
15:29:09 <int-e> I saw that... in fact it happened hours ago... (I checked because I had not read Monday's comic yet)
15:29:24 <oerjan> that may be, but i was sleeping.
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16:01:34 <Taneb> oerjan, I avoid empty room hum by living in the room over from the extractor fan in halls
16:04:15 <Taneb> That replaces the empty room hum with a hum whose origin is known
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16:59:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44740&oldid=44463 * YourDeathIsComing * (+2)
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18:34:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Atrapado]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44741&oldid=33292 * Atrapado * (-55) Undo revision 33292 by [[Special:Contributions/Atrapado|Atrapado]] ([[User talk:Atrapado|talk]])
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18:49:35 <hppavilion[1]> Kind of postscripty, but with functional programming
18:53:26 <hppavilion[1]> "'math' import ` input ` tofloat ` sqrt ` print `" takes a number from input and prints its square root
18:53:52 <hppavilion[1]> (if you haven't figured it out yet, "`" is the apply function)
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18:55:05 <nortti> so, everything is just pushed to the stack, unless the apply-operator is explicitly used?
18:56:03 <hppavilion[1]> The language is going to have support for a TON of APIs, because that's really what I'm making it for
18:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering making "`name" functions be equivalent to "name `" and making functions that's names don't match /[a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_]*/ be applied automatically
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18:59:44 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose there should be, and I'll make "APPLY" to match "`"
19:02:23 <hppavilion[1]> (push apply, call it on nothing, raise an error, if I am correct)
19:02:57 <nortti> no, I mean apply ` equals just `
19:03:30 <hppavilion[1]> But that's not code you'd ever really use, because that's useless
19:07:22 <hppavilion[1]> What should I use as the separator in Dicts and Lists?
19:09:00 <nortti> ah, so no list literals?
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19:10:42 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make it operate on a tape of stacks instead of just one stack, which each "cell" being a "namespace" or "cellspace"
19:12:59 <hppavilion[1]> To make a dict {'a': 1, 'b': 2, 'c': 3} you would do something like:
19:13:59 <hppavilion[1]> ("3" instead of "6" because every key MUST have a value, no more no less, so it makes sense)
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19:17:43 <hppavilion[1]> There. There are only 6, types of tokens, and 2 are pretty much just syntactic sugar (well. 1.9, as it /almost/ works without one of them, barring that that's necessary for `)
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19:39:28 <impomatic_> Has anyone here got access to the Tamiment Library at New York University?
19:58:23 <ais523> that's a very specific question
19:58:33 <ais523> is there something stored there that you're looking for access to, or are you just curious?
19:58:51 <ais523> (I have no idea if I do or not, but probably wouldn't be able to use it unless it was directly connected to my job, which is unlikely)
20:00:11 <ais523> hi impomatic_ btw, haven't seen you aroudn for a while
20:01:39 <impomatic_> Hi ais523, there's something there I'd like access to. But they charge $10 per page to scan :-(
20:02:03 <b_jonas> impomatic_: what? $10 per page?
20:02:09 <b_jonas> is it something special for that?
20:02:37 <ais523> that sort of price is reasonable if the file doesn't exist electronically yet
20:02:46 <b_jonas> impomatic_: are you on the same continent? check if you can get it cheaper with interlibrary loan
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20:24:36 <tswett> Taneb: so you've got a polynomial with a root x and a polynomial with a root y, and you want to know what polynomial has x+y as a root?
20:26:55 <tswett> Taneb: see http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/155122/how-to-prove-that-the-sum-and-product-of-two-algebraic-numbers-is-algebraic
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21:13:00 <b_jonas> impomatic_: ouch. that makes it more difficult, and probably more expensive.
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21:47:00 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] If I am to believe Google Translate from back when i asked it to pronounce dijkstra's name, Wybe is approximately what english-speakers would munge into "veebay" hth
21:49:03 <oerjan> also very close to what norwegians would munge into "vibe", something which cannot be said for the other parts of his name.
21:52:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Insomnia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44742&oldid=44646 * 66.114.92.11 * (+174)
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23:27:06 <\oren\> is anyon watching the jays game?
23:34:43 <HackEgo> [U+00D7 MULTIPLICATION SIGN]
23:40:37 <HackEgo> [U+21A6 RIGHTWARDS ARROW FROM BAR]
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00:00:48 <ais523> any verdict on whether it's 7 or 8 yet?
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00:01:59 <hppavilion[1]> It's been a few minutes, so now it's either... 4 or 5
00:02:22 <ais523> I meant for the entire amount of time taken up
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00:04:38 <oerjan> @djinn ((((t1 -> t2) -> t1) -> t1) -> t2) -> t2
00:04:38 <lambdabot> f a = a (\ b -> b (\ c -> a (\ _ -> c)))
00:04:55 <oerjan> :t \a -> a (\ b -> b (\ c -> a (\ _ -> c)))
00:04:56 <lambdabot> ((((r -> r1) -> r) -> r) -> r1) -> r1
00:05:43 <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what that function does
00:06:01 <ais523> (also, the second question seems a little pointless, I doubt lambdabot would give you a function of the wrong type)
00:06:45 <ais523> hmm, presumably there are some types it can't handle
00:06:52 <ais523> @djinn (a -> b) -> b -> a
00:06:57 <tswett> @djinn (a -> b) -> a -> b
00:07:22 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 260 seconds).
00:07:24 <tswett> @djinn ((((a -> b) -> b) -> a) -> b) -> b
00:07:57 <tswett> I remember being frustrated a few years ago about how that function didn't exist.
00:08:01 <tswett> I don't remember quite why.
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00:08:47 <ais523> I find those left-associative function types really unintuitive
00:09:06 <tswett> https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc "Line and discard salt into sauce."
00:09:15 <tswett> Reveal a creature card from your hand and discard it onto the battlefield.
00:09:56 <\oren\> b_jonas: yeah character requests are open
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00:10:37 <ais523> also hppavilion[1] was wrong, it's been more than 7
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00:32:30 <oerjan> <ais523> now I'm trying to figure out what that function does <-- someone asked for it in an SO question. The type is basically Pierce's law with an extra -> t2 -> t2 tacked on, which is enough to turn from "no term exists" (because not an intuitionistic theorem) to "one does".
00:33:02 <ais523> oerjan: oh, so it's a proof, not a function intended to be useful in programming
00:35:57 <tswett> @djinn ((((((a -> b) -> b) -> a) -> b) -> b) -> a) -> a
00:35:57 <lambdabot> f a = a (\ b -> b (\ c -> a (\ _ -> c (\ d -> b (\ _ -> d)))))
00:36:12 <tswett> @djinn ((((a -> b) -> b) -> a) -> a) -> a
00:36:22 <tswett> @djinn ((((((a -> b) -> b) -> a) -> a) -> a) -> b) -> b
00:36:31 <oerjan> tswett: i suspect tacking -> b) -> b) -> a) -> a onto anything containing just a and b makes it provable
00:36:48 <tswett> oerjan: and taking -> a) -> a) -> b) -> b on does not?
00:37:15 <tswett> There's a counterexample right there.
00:45:04 <tswett> @djinn (((a -> a) -> a) -> a) -> a
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00:47:34 <Jafet> Is that even true classically
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00:48:42 <oerjan> @check \a -> (((a <= a) <= a) <= a) <= (a :: Bool)
00:48:44 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
00:49:23 <shachaf> breaking new grounds in laziness
00:49:31 <ais523> well it doesn't take long for lambdabot to try both possibilities
00:49:38 <Jafet> Gotta check all those Unknowns and FileNotFounds
00:49:41 <oerjan> well i didn't use the brain power to check that True was obvious hth
00:49:42 <ais523> what does <= do on bools?
00:49:51 <oerjan> ais523: implication hth
00:49:55 <shachaf> Implication (in the opposite direction of the arrow).
00:51:26 <oerjan> @check \x a -> ((x <= a) <= a) == (x::Bool)
00:51:28 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 8 tests):
00:52:49 <fizzie> 8 tests for two bools.
00:53:07 <oerjan> lambdabot is very thorough
00:53:55 <Jafet> Clearly there are sqrt 8 values of Bool.
00:54:10 <shachaf> Didn't lambdabot have a smallcheck plugin at one point?
01:00:59 <oerjan> @djinn ((a -> a) -> a) -> a
01:02:30 <\oren\> there are 9 values for 2 bools
01:02:38 <oerjan> i'm wondering if you can get something that is classically true and yet tacking on -> v) -> v for all its variables doesn't turn it intuitionistically true
01:02:47 <\oren\> because bools are nullable I assume
01:03:45 <\oren\> or are Haskell bools not nullable?
01:04:12 <oerjan> not nullable, but they have undefined
01:04:49 <oerjan> unless you start distinguishing different exceptions, in which case you have infinitely many
01:05:04 <\oren\> bah typical use of null is as a undefined value with defined behaviour
01:05:27 <oerjan> yes, which haskell's undefined isn't, you cannot test for it in pure code
01:05:39 <Sgeo__> https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/3osqqe/hlist_010_heterogeneously_typed_lists_with/
01:05:55 <oerjan> well it's defined behavior i guess, just not useful to test on
01:10:28 <fizzie> You probably want a Maybe Bool if you want a "nullable bool".
01:12:45 <fizzie> I like the "Just x" constructors, they make code sound friendly and approachable.
01:13:10 <fizzie> By contrast, Java 8's Optional<T> has methods like "orElse", which sound vaguely threatening.
01:13:24 <fizzie> This value better not be empty, orElse.
01:14:09 <oerjan> > Just Right <*> Just "there"
01:14:19 <Jafet> > frоmEnum False :: [Bool]
01:14:20 <lambdabot> [False,True,*Exception: openFile: does not exist (no such file or directory)
01:15:38 <oerjan> > frоmEnum False :: [Bool]
01:15:39 <lambdabot> [False,True,*Exception: openFile: does not exist (no such file or directory)
01:16:31 <oerjan> > frоmEnum False :: [Bool]
01:16:32 <lambdabot> [False,True,*Exception: openFile: does not exist (no such file or directory)
01:16:54 <oerjan> > fromEnum False :: [Bool]
01:16:56 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[Bool]’ with actual type ‘Int’
01:16:56 <lambdabot> In the expression: fromEnum False :: [Bool]
01:17:08 <HackEgo> [U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E]
01:17:23 <Jafet> Oh right, it's enumFrom.
01:17:35 <shachaf> `` unidecode enumFrom # hth
01:17:36 <HackEgo> [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M]
01:17:54 <HackEgo> [U+0066 LATIN SMALL LETTER F] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+043E CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER O] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M] [U+0045 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006D LATIN SMALL LETTER M]
01:18:13 <lambdabot> [False,True,*Exception: openFile: does not exist (no such file or directory)
01:18:18 <shachaf> a bit less sneaky than it looked at first
01:18:36 <shachaf> > fromEnum False :: [Bool]
01:18:38 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.fromEnum’,
01:18:38 <lambdabot> defined at /tmp/mueval8057508461632621729.hs:161:1
01:18:54 <\oren\> In my font those two o's look quite distinct
01:19:09 <shachaf> i never realized fromEnum and enumFrom both existed
01:19:12 <fizzie> It's a very non-picky fromEnum.
01:19:15 <shachaf> (i realized they each existed, though)
01:20:52 <fizzie> > enumFromTo minBound maxBound :: [Bool]
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01:57:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C+]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44743 * 69.118.252.58 * (+1217) It's a joke somewhat
01:58:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[C+]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44744&oldid=44743 * 69.118.252.58 * (-2)
02:01:08 -!- Adie has joined.
02:03:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44745&oldid=44621 * 69.118.252.58 * (+9) /* General languages */
02:03:13 <shachaf> I found a use for ImpredicativeTypes: let reify :: forall a r. a -> (forall s. Reifies s a => Proxy s -> r) -> r; reify a k = (unsafeCoerce unsafeCoerce :: (forall s. Reifies s a => Proxy s -> r) -> (Proxy s -> a) -> Proxy s -> r) k (const a) Proxy
02:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44746&oldid=44745 * 69.118.252.58 * (-7) /* General languages */
02:04:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44747&oldid=44669 * 69.118.252.58 * (+9)
02:05:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44748&oldid=44747 * 69.118.252.58 * (+0) /* C */
02:06:04 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: How about a "tied list" data structure? Or Tied XML?
02:06:15 <Adie> what is this channel
02:06:30 <hppavilion[1]> Adie: It's the discussion of Esoteric Programming Languages
02:06:41 <Adie> what does esoteric mean
02:06:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Tangled and Tied XML: <b><i><portal id="walrus"/></b><portal id="walrus"/></i>)
02:07:33 <hppavilion[1]> So you do programming. I was just about to ask that.
02:08:22 <hppavilion[1]> For example, brainfuck, a TC language with only 8 instructions (+-<>[].,), with two of them just for IO (unnecessary for TCness) and too many derivatives
02:08:30 <Adie> this place is weird
02:10:30 <hppavilion[1]> You could visit our wiki if you're interested in what we do more: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
02:12:07 <ais523> esoteric programming languages are languages for which being useful was not a primary design goal
02:12:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck asterism]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44749 * Hppavilion1 * (+26) Created Page as a convenience redirect
02:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Or it was, but it aims to achieve so in a roundabout way
02:12:40 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well, no, that's not really being useful
02:13:22 <Sgeo__> s/useful/useful for programming/
02:13:27 <hppavilion[1]> Befunge could be useful if it had some libraries that people use.
02:13:28 <ais523> right, one of the reasons I stay here is in the hope that we'll discover the next new big thing in programming
02:13:42 <ais523> fungot: explain to hppavilion[1] that you already have plenty of libraries
02:13:44 <fungot> ais523: you can only run gpl code on it without saying so, but the patient declined." fnord dominus
02:14:39 <hppavilion[1]> I think that a CSV-based funge COULD be the next big thing
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02:15:24 * relrod doesn't know why he had a tail :(
02:15:56 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I don't, really
02:16:15 <ais523> I think to really revolutionize programming, you have to attack it from an angle that doesn't really fit in with existing code
02:16:29 <ais523> I've been aiming to do some things along those lines
02:16:43 <ais523> the result is that the languages are impossible, with known techniques, to implement efficiently, and nobody can figure out how to program in them
02:16:51 <ais523> (look at something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/WUUI for example)
02:16:59 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Maybe not the next big thing, but I bet it could go beyond our community. Not CSV strictly, but more spreadsheet-based.
02:20:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44750&oldid=44627 * Hppavilion1 * (+599) IDs for Operator Overloading in Classes (this is a fucking BF derivative)
02:20:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44751&oldid=44750 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed some formatting
02:21:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44752&oldid=44751 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed some formatting (again)
02:22:31 <oerjan> shachaf: huh, is the double unsafeCoerce necessary?
02:22:33 <hppavilion[1]> The way it'll work is there'll be two commands: Define the following code block to a class and set current cell to instance of corresponding class
02:23:14 <shachaf> I spent much less time on those comments than I did on the answer. I'd be happy to see it done in a more straightforward way.
02:23:48 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a DB software that follows this analogy: SQL:C::This:Python
02:23:49 <shachaf> The obvious thing (unsafeCoerce :: (forall ...) -> ...) didn't seem to work but I didn't investigate too much.
02:24:05 <shachaf> oerjan: also how did you get this notification exactly
02:24:27 <oerjan> presumably because ImpredicativeTypes are currently crap
02:24:28 <shachaf> Oh, are you some sort of fancy moderator?
02:24:43 <shachaf> Never mind, I forgot that I posted that in here.
02:25:28 <shachaf> I thought you were reading http://stackoverflow.com/a/17794883
02:25:47 <shachaf> since you always seem to be on that website
02:26:54 <oerjan> well i am, but i don't remembber that message
02:27:32 <shachaf> it's an old answer, just a new comment
02:30:21 <\oren\> I think I'm gonna make a language called c❄
02:30:51 <oerjan> it better be unique and precious
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02:32:56 <Jafet> `multicode -r snowflake
02:32:57 <HackEgo> Usage: multicode [options] arg \ \ multicode: error: no such option: -
02:32:59 <Jafet> `` multicode -r snowflake
02:33:01 <HackEgo> U+2744 SNOWFLAKE \ UTF-8: e2 9d 84 UTF-16BE: 2744 Decimal: ❄ \ ❄ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2745 TIGHT TRIFOLIATE SNOWFLAKE \ UTF-8: e2 9d 85 UTF-16BE: 2745 Decimal: ❅ \ ❅ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+2746 HEAVY CHEVRON SNOWFLAKE \ UTF-8: e2 9d 86 UTF
02:33:18 <\oren\> it will be based on C, but rather than adding features
02:33:57 <\oren\> it will alter the syntax to be as clean as freshly fallen snow
02:34:38 <\oren\> I'm working on some code samples first, then I'll figure out a real spec
02:35:48 <Jafet> `` multicode -r snowflake | awk 'NR % 6 == 1 || NR % 6 == 3'
02:35:49 <HackEgo> U+2744 SNOWFLAKE \ ❄ \ U+2745 TIGHT TRIFOLIATE SNOWFLAKE \ ❅ \ U+2746 HEAVY CHEVRON SNOWFLAKE \ ❆
02:37:42 <hppavilion[1]> (Slower mostly because it'll be made in python xD)
02:38:44 <\oren\> nah, it will RUN at the same speed, but the cleaner looking syntax might slow down compilation
02:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It won't be compiled, at least in the original version. I'm not smart enough to compile things.
02:40:05 <hppavilion[1]> (Except this one program that I manually compiled, but that was literally a single instruction)
02:41:42 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call this DB for now? ArbourDB? (It'll allow one to use trees instead of/along with/merged with Tables if one desires)
02:44:13 <\oren\> a tree on a table? like bonsai?
02:52:25 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Yes. You can have a table where the cells in one or more columns are binary or other trees. Like a bonzai.
02:54:19 <hppavilion[1]> The idea is that everything is based around a sort of "Arithmetic of the Types". In SQL, all tables are of the type (or type expression) (Map)*LinkedList, or (Array)*LinkedList, depending on if you want to think of it as a map or as an array where each index has an implied value
02:56:10 <\oren\> So I have a code sample for c❄
02:56:13 <\oren\> int main () printf "answer: %d\n", 0x0e | 0xf8 + 1;;
02:57:25 <\oren\> int main () { printf("answer: %d\n", (0x0e | 0xf8) + 1); }
02:58:14 <\oren\> it's totally unambigious
02:58:35 <\oren\> a block always ends in ;;
02:58:51 <\oren\> whereas a statement ends in ;
02:59:11 <\oren\> unless it's the last statement in a block
03:00:22 <\oren\> if x = 3; puts "it's three";; else; puts "it's not three";;
03:02:35 <Jafet> int main int argc❄ char **argv❄❄ puts "Hello, world!"❄❄
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03:06:11 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call my DB's generalization of tables? They aren't really tables, because they can be of different form from (Map)*LinkedList.
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03:10:43 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Do you have any clue what to call my "tables"?
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03:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm the only one who's done anything in the last 5 minutes, but there are a few people out there who are probably just forgetting to open their client
03:15:01 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org is a good place to go to find existing weird languages; you should probably start with Brainfuck, Unlambda, and Befunge (and maybe malbolge), as those are the first few that come to mind
03:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Then, just start hitting "random page" and hope you don't land on another BF derivative
03:15:41 <Hogget> no, see, Brainfuck type of languages is exactly what i'm trying to avoid.
03:25:06 <\oren\> In c❄ you replace the c syntax *p with p*.
03:25:44 <\oren\> this makes brackets unnecessary in many type definitions
03:27:33 <\oren\> e.g. a c `struct foo (*a)[4]` is in c❄ a `struct foo a*[4]`
03:28:17 <\oren\> whereas a c `struct foo *a[4]` is in c❄ a `struct foo a[4]*`
03:37:38 <\oren\> also, & ^ and | have the same precedence as + and -
03:38:53 <Hogget> Why is it so difficult for computational methods to extract accurate meaning from natural language sentences?
03:39:32 <\oren\> it's difficult because natural language sentences are mostly ambiguous
03:39:46 <Hogget> like colloquial sentences, informal; or better yet, from poetic expressions.
03:40:14 <\oren\> writing code to extract meaning from natural language sentences is literally my job
03:41:07 <\oren\> go figure what the user meant by "who's the bass dude"
03:41:53 <\oren\> or better yet "what does s m mean after a word"
03:43:26 <Hogget> "mostly ambiguous" sonds quite an accurate description of natural sentences ... and humorous :)
03:44:16 <\oren\> also, even if the meaning is clear, intention may depend on context
03:45:26 <\oren\> "send a text message to ted"
03:45:36 <\oren\> who ted is depends on the user
03:45:44 <Hogget> \oren\: yes, true. I'm familiar with rhetorical figures.
03:46:18 <Hogget> and many kinds of metaphorical forms
03:46:53 <Hogget> \oren\: is there a programming paradigm better suited to this task of extracting accurate meaning from natural sentences?
03:48:02 <\oren\> I'm not actually certain. Some people claim statistical models are better, others claim that parsing things according to a syntax is better
03:48:55 <Hogget> I suppose a method of cross checking context against a humongous corpus of text (all written language of all eras of all humanity :P ) won't scale very well.
03:50:36 <\oren\> I'm far from an expert in NLP anyway. it's just my job.
03:51:29 <\oren\> I took a course in NLP a few years ago, but I only got a B
03:51:31 <Hogget> and then again, the original utterances of your linguisticall smart buddy, after 3 beers at the local bar, might not be written anywhere ever . . . yet you understand exactly what he means ... lol
03:52:34 <Hogget> \oren\: you might be the one that pulls the sword out of the rock . . . :D
03:52:59 <Hogget> doesthiswork: the context checking case, you mean?
03:56:01 <doesthiswork> you could also try approaching it from the perspective of coordination instead of communication
03:59:06 <\oren\> I don't understand what coordination means here either
04:00:10 <\oren\> Hogget: you may be surprised to learn that the code I write for NLP is mostly C++
04:01:55 <Hogget> \oren\: yea . . . I heard C++ didn't do strings very well . . . but i don't know C++ at all.
04:02:50 <\oren\> std::string is... ok-ish
04:03:52 <\oren\> unfortunately, std::vector is bad with threading so we use something else
04:09:46 <\oren\> anyway, there are a lot of products that try to understand human language commands these days
04:09:57 <Hogget> How do humans disambiguate then? If most lang. is ambiguous, our mechanism to determine meaning must be pretty good. My guess is that we do a funneling type of selecting from many meanings, that we crosscheck with known contexts, plug in a possible fit with the rest of the sentence, and keep trying 'til a good fit. All at faster than light speed, of course.
04:10:47 <doesthiswork> we try to guess what is already on the person's mind and only listen to words as a last resort
04:10:49 <\oren\> The human brain is massivley parallel in it's processing.
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04:11:25 <\oren\> So I think it analyzes things in a bunch of different ways
04:13:30 <\oren\> doesthiswork: Yeah. and then as we hear a sentence we often autocomplete it, leading to errors when people speak weird
04:13:37 <Hogget> yes, gesture clues from the interlocutor are a major source of meaning.
04:14:22 <Hogget> a tilt of the head, eyebrows expressions, etc.
04:14:54 <doesthiswork> at work we're using a jackhammer so hearing is difficult
04:15:23 <\oren\> for me, I can lipread english fairly accurately, so I can follow a conversation even with headphones in
04:15:26 <Hogget> Still, there's the written level of expressions . . . and that's a major part of the "written www"
04:16:12 <Hogget> HAL-9000 could lip read ... ;)
04:19:02 <Hogget> the "smells web" is slated for 2025, lol
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05:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> Hogget: Is the Propogator Model another name for Reactive Programming?
05:07:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: no
05:07:48 <hppavilion[1]> What is it then? I can't find a Wiki article on it
05:08:05 <adu> the propogator model is a replacement for the Turing machine
05:08:21 <adu> reactive programming is a replacement for procedural programming
05:08:39 <adu> The Turing machine is not "another name" for procedural programming
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05:09:06 <hppavilion[1]> I never said it was and I wasn't going to say it was.
05:09:13 <adu> I think one is descriptive and one is perscriptive
05:09:40 <adu> hppavilion[1]: propogator model is perscriptive, reactive programming is descriptive
05:09:56 <adu> hppavilion[1]: Turing machine is perscriptive, procedural programming is descriptive
05:10:06 <hppavilion[1]> I know that Reacitve programming is where if x=y, x==y is always true no matter how y changes, unless x is redefined
05:10:37 <adu> hppavilion[1]: reactive programming is changing a cell in a spreadsheet
05:12:27 <adu> I'm sorry to interrupt
05:14:36 <adu> I was working on a sexp <=> mathml converter
05:15:50 <Hogget> adu: you did not interrupt; thanks for explanations
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05:16:55 <Hogget> adu: my initial question was: is there a programming paradigm better suited to extracting accurate meaning from natural language sentences?
05:17:51 <Hogget> but SQL is not for parsing natural languages
05:17:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm attempting to design a better type of Database software than SQL. Not faster, of course. I'm bad at fast code. Just more... featureful.
05:18:22 <hppavilion[1]> You mean a language for learning what a sentence says, not a language that is supposedly easier to write because it's englishy
05:18:40 <Hogget> hppavilion[1]: yes, that
05:19:16 <hppavilion[1]> Hogget: Are you attempting to do something like a Text Adventure where you just need to know what a person means or do you want a thing that can understand Shakespear?
05:19:24 <Hogget> hppavilion[1]: what's wrong with noSQL dbases?
05:20:23 <Hogget> hppavilion[1]: to understand Shakespeare is a good analogy
05:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> (There's nothing wrong with them, I'm just trying to make the Python of databases. I see SQL as the C of databases; very powerful, but not capable of things that don't fit a table)
05:20:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: consider drawing inspiration from HDFS and Cassandra
05:20:58 <hppavilion[1]> LISP I hear is used in AI a lot, though I think it's a different kind of AI.
05:21:55 <hppavilion[1]> If you have only a handful of sentence structures you need to understand (as one might need in a TBG), then just Python and some Parser Combinators will be good enough.
05:22:37 <hppavilion[1]> (for example, you just need to match an instruction saying to do x with object y using object z, maybe with some adverbs)
05:23:24 <adu> that's a myth
05:23:41 <adu> LISP was used for AI
05:23:57 <Hogget> hm, i think i need more muscle
05:24:04 <adu> but that's like saying "PHP is how the web works"
05:25:07 <adu> I personally think that the most realistic AI will be hybrid
05:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> But if you need to ACTUALLY be able to parse the full works of shakespear... well, you'll need access to a Dictionary API to start with. THEN you'll need to solve the noun-or-verb problem with "kick". THEN, if you aren't using machine learning to figure out what it means, you'll have to produce some BNF for sentence structures (and no matter how hard you try, there'll always be a few gramatically correct outliers), THEN make a parser
05:25:16 <hppavilion[1]> out of that (the easiest way is with combinators). If you CAN use machine learning, well, that's not my area of expertise
05:26:06 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there are 3 DBs I'm trying to learn right now: Virtuoso, Jena and eXist
05:26:44 <adu> Jena is an RDF DB, eXist is an XML DB, and Virtuoso is a DB that understands RDF and XML
05:28:22 <adu> TBG = Tall Bald Guy?
05:28:35 <hppavilion[1]> To parse sentences, you'll first have to lex the words out of it (and in the process you'll likely need to detect whether it's a noun or verb, which is hard for words that can be both), then you'll need to find how to identify the subclauses (like "john kicked"), then you'll need to recognize full clauses, then you'll need to be able to hook those together with I,cI, I;I and combinations of those. I;I will be easy, I,cI not so much, as
05:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> you need to preserve the c and extract meaning from that too.
05:29:29 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_flies_like_an_arrow;_fruit_flies_like_a_banana
05:30:20 <hppavilion[1]> And then you'll have some difficult when it comes to things people do differently (read: wrong). Does punctuation go INSIDE or OUTSIDE of the quote? Your teacher says inside, but most programmers put it outside.
05:30:39 <adu> I put it outside
05:30:51 <adu> I think Noah Webster was wrong
05:30:55 <hppavilion[1]> adu: So do I. Other people do it wrong. Quotes are literal, goddammit!
05:30:58 <ais523> programmers put it outside because that gives more information on what was and wasn't part of the quote
05:31:06 <ais523> and makes the quote more accurate to the original
05:31:24 <ais523> standard English style not only moves punctuation marks to the wrong side, it also changes full stops to/from commas
05:31:30 <ais523> which is a weird rule that loses info
05:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> Hogget: In short, I recommend you DON'T parse english with combinators alone. Use /some/ machine learning, but also combinators because they're fun.
05:32:25 <adu> maybe it wasn't Webster, I just hate him for putting extra letters that are silent on EVRYTNG
05:32:57 <adu> or should I say "everythingue"
05:34:18 <Hogget> adu: it was the London book printers who made a rightful mess of spelling.
05:34:48 <adu> you know there are lots of similarities between spelling and RDF
05:36:19 <Hogget> Lisp seems to be well suited for parsing natural langs. What do you fellas think?
05:36:53 <adu> like most of the work spells the work "knows" as "knows", but RDF is trying to get people to spell it "http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/knows"
05:37:04 <adu> s/work/world/
05:37:26 <adu> Hogget: I think parsers are well suited for that
05:37:44 <adu> Hogget: my favorite parsing frameworks as of recent have been ANTLR and Perl6
05:37:45 <hppavilion[1]> "like most of the world spells the world "knows" as "knows", but RDF is trying to get people to spell it"
05:37:47 <Hogget> yacc and lex, you mean?
05:38:32 <adu> Hogget: ANTLR and Perl6
05:38:53 <Hogget> adu: i see. (i'm slow to keyboard)
05:39:35 <adu> ANTLR and Perl6 have one thing in common as I see it, they both equate grammar productions with class methods
05:41:01 <adu> some of them can be simple, like plusminus = { plus | minus } or they can be a function written by you, which is required in some cases
05:41:17 <adu> and that makes me happy
05:41:31 <adu> the escape from "regular" constrants
05:41:40 <adu> or "context free" constraints
05:43:17 <Hogget> adu: hmm ... putting NLP grammar permutations in classes makes me think i'll end up with tons of ravioli code.
05:43:35 <adu> Hogget: have you ever heard of modules?
05:43:55 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm designing a DB where you can store, for example, Trees where the nodes contain Rows.
05:43:56 <adu> there's thing thing called "import", it's kind of great
05:44:27 <adu> hppavilion[1]: sounds like Virtuoso
05:44:43 <adu> hppavilion[1]: also, Apache Drill
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05:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> You'd create a DB like this with CREATE DATABASE <name> TYPE (binarytree BY row[<types>])
05:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> Or something along those lines. It's still in design.
05:47:07 <adu> XML is pretty crappy
05:47:24 <adu> it's grammar is larger than most use cases
05:48:10 <adu> my grammar iz bad
05:48:15 <myname> i have to admit that english is pretty weird there
05:48:34 <adu> myname: where?
05:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> I'll most likely end up just using pickling, but I hope in the later version it'll be XML-based
05:48:44 <myname> you write adu's but not it's
05:49:08 <adu> myname: the contration apostraphe overrides
05:49:43 <adu> like 0^0 is undefined, but lim x->0 x^x = 1, because math
05:49:57 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Not sure what that meant, but I think you have it backwards
05:50:20 <adu> it's = it is
05:50:28 <myname> i hhow is 0.1^0.1 closer to 1 than 0.01^0.01?
05:50:30 <adu> its = the thing of it
05:51:11 <adu> *because math*
05:51:30 <myname> having 0^0 undefined is pretty reasonable, though
05:51:57 <adu> https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/limit-of-x-x-as-x-approaches-0.487199/
05:52:05 <Hogget> "Time flies . . ." stock example is bogus, at least the way Wikip. shows it: it relies on a spelling error. "fruit flies" is in error; the correct form is "fruit-flies"—it's a hyphenated composite, as its singular "fruit-fly".
05:52:40 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetration#Extension_to_base_zero
05:53:02 <ais523> Hogget: I think the nonhyphenated spelling is becoming more common (possibly due to the phrase in question)
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05:56:46 <Hogget> ais523: that's unfortunate. Moreso considering that the natural process with these hyphenates is to drop the hyphen and conflate the terms: "fruitfly", "Micro-soft" (it was spelled that way in the beginning) into "Microsoft".
05:59:24 <izabera> yeah without the hyphen it's better
05:59:25 <ais523> Hogget: it seems about even whether hyphenated words end up with the hyphen being replaced with a space or with nothing
06:00:10 <ais523> fwiw Wikipedia seems to spell "fruit fly" without the hyphen
06:01:06 <Hogget> ais523: Wiki is not 100% reliable :(
06:04:42 <adu> You know what I think
06:05:03 <adu> I think we should write an OS with the progagator model
06:05:08 <Hogget> "Google" has never been "Go-ogle", that i'm aware of.
06:05:24 <adu> Maybe not, but Java was Oak
06:05:38 <adu> and JavaScript was LiveScript
06:05:54 <adu> and then everyone drank too much coffee
06:05:58 <ais523> Hogget: that joke was made by Google themselves, but much later (when talking about a debugger for their new language, they suggested calling it "ogle")
06:06:03 <Hogget> Java is imperative, no?
06:06:31 <adu> Hogget: imperative/procedural (I prefer the term procedural)
06:07:37 <ais523> Java's normally considered to be in the "Java-style OO" paradigm (to distinguish it from Smalltalk-style OO)
06:07:42 <ais523> but that's kind-of recursive
06:08:12 <adu> I think Java-style OO started as C++ features that people could understand
06:09:04 <ais523> understanding C++ OO is actually pretty hard
06:09:16 <adu> because it's bad
06:09:23 <ais523> basically because its default implementation of features is a limited functionality version that can be implemented efficiently
06:09:37 <ais523> and if you want full Java-style OO functionality you have to opt into it with keywords like "virtual"
06:09:45 <adu> C++ replaces verbosity with ambiguity, that's not a good trade IMHO
06:09:46 <ais523> due to the performance cost
06:10:52 <Hogget> ambiguity makes programming more difficult
06:13:38 <adu> my usual concerns are: Clarity, Readability, Maintainability above Brevity and Expressiveness
06:14:18 <adu> C++ doesn't even come close
06:14:33 <adu> I think Perl6 strikes a good balance
06:14:43 <adu> I think Perl5 is confusing
06:15:19 <ais523> so in order to make a good esolang, we reverse all that?
06:15:32 <ais523> inclarity, unreadability, unmaintainability in the pursuit of brevity and expressiveness
06:15:42 <ais523> although that pretty much is just the definition of a golfing language
06:15:49 <ais523> and there are a few of those already
06:16:32 <Hogget> what's the benefit of esolangs?
06:16:43 <ais523> a range of benefits, really
06:16:45 <lifthrasiir> I briefly thought of a golfing language where you have your favorite choice of (say) Huffman tree of instructions, and correctly determined that this is not much fun
06:16:55 <ais523> some people view it as art; Daniel Temkin's blog seems to be looking at it from that perspective
06:17:06 <ais523> really, something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/2014 can't really be explained except as art
06:17:17 <ais523> some people view it as long-shot attempts to find the next big thing in pogramming
06:17:35 <ais523> some people use it as practice for designing/implementing more serious languages later
06:17:51 <ais523> some people do esoprogramming for the mental challenge (especially in cases like http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust)
06:19:07 <ais523> sometimes it's an attempt to poke fun at specific existing languages
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06:19:56 <b_jonas> and sometimes it's about interesting thought experiments, like that boltzmann brain language of ais
06:20:07 <adu> ais523: I think APL, J, Funge98 are good examples of brevity and expressiveness
06:21:00 <b_jonas> and some are where you try to figure out proofs for the computational power of a language, like M:tG
06:21:27 <b_jonas> or Underload with only some set of its symbols kept
06:23:50 <ais523> to me, the M:tG case is a good argument that the rules of the game should stop trying to ask the impossible
06:23:56 <ais523> although I'd love a good uncomputability proof
06:24:18 <ais523> it should probably only take one layer of subgames + a fix to the existing construction + some way to inspect players' life totals
06:24:31 <ais523> ofc uncomputability isn't as strong as I'd like
06:24:46 <ais523> I'd prefer an impossibility result (e.g. via showing that the language can solve its own halting problem)
06:24:54 <b_jonas> er, what should take a layer of subgames and a way to inspect life totals?
06:25:09 <b_jonas> there are tons of ways to inspect life totals
06:25:10 <ais523> b_jonas: construction of an interpreter for a uncomputable language in M:tG
06:25:47 <ais523> the language would basically just need to be TC, plus the ability to (at one point during execution) solve the halting problem on a single program in a Turing-equivalent language
06:26:04 <ais523> that's uncomputable, and probably M:tG implementable
06:26:32 <ais523> but it's not as interesting as being able to do an unlimited number of halting problem evaluations, and nowhere near as interesting as being able to solve its own halting problem
06:28:39 <b_jonas> life total => Ruthless Cullblade, Death's Shadow, Serra Avatar, Roiling Horror.
06:29:07 <ais523> not sure which of those would fit into the construction
06:29:38 <b_jonas> those are all creatures whose power or toughness depends on the life total of some player,
06:29:53 <ais523> the issue with the conditional +toughness effects is that they produce a something/nothing distinction rather than a something/something else distinction
06:29:57 <b_jonas> but I don't understand what you need to inspect life totals for in first place
06:30:15 <ais523> conditionals on subgame outcome
06:30:23 <ais523> (Shahrazad halves the life total of the loser)
06:30:51 <ais523> ofc there is the problem that the players could concede the subgame and mess up the calculations, although I'm not sure if you can concede in the middle of an infinite loop because the game is already platonically drawn at that point
06:31:33 <b_jonas> ais523: for something and something else, I listed four creatures that work in at least three different ways
06:31:47 <ais523> actually serra avatar + death's shadow (with a ton of +1/+1 counters) might work
06:31:57 <ais523> because they both trigger on the same player's life total but in opposite senses
06:32:04 <adu> did you hear the science news?
06:32:14 <ais523> which specific science news?
06:32:16 <adu> the Kilogram is being redefined!
06:33:14 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proposed_redefinition_of_SI_base_units#Kilogram
06:33:35 <b_jonas> adu: people have been proposing redefinitions for like decades
06:33:44 <b_jonas> most of them don't make any sense because they can't be measured precise enough
06:33:53 <adu> Yeah, but this time NIST is endorsing it
06:34:17 <ais523> yes, I did hear that, although the specific interesting news is more "we've now measured Planck's Constant and/or Avogadro's Number accurately enough that we might be able to replace the kilogram with it"
06:34:28 <ais523> I think they might want a few more decimal places first though
06:34:33 <b_jonas> like, the ones that would require you to measure the Avogadro constant or the Planck's Constant for more than a few digits precision
06:34:57 <b_jonas> it's even worse if you try to measure the universal gravity constant, mind you
06:35:25 <adu> well, big G is dependant on relativistic effects, like how close to a singluarity you are
06:36:00 <ais523> ofc they don't need to be perfectly accurate
06:36:05 <ais523> just more accurate than the kilogram bar in question
06:36:44 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, but also they have to think of the future, eg. the definition should make sense thirty years from now, with unknown future technology
06:37:21 <adu> that's why I got the impression that big G was calculable from the gravitational field
06:37:47 <ais523> everything in the universe (apart from the official kilogram bar) has gradually been getting slightly heavier over the last 100 years…
06:37:57 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want something that permits no decisions by any players to mess up the computation, then I think you have to use breakable infinite loops, not subgames, because _either_ player can concede a subgame, which probably makes the whole thing meaningless.
06:38:41 <ais523> b_jonas: well don't the rules imply that as soon as a loop starts with no player choices, the game is instantly drawn? thus no time to concede?
06:38:59 <b_jonas> ais523: well, maybe you could somehow rig the subgame so the information you get out is not only from losing or winning, but from drawing or from wishing cards away from the main game
06:39:03 <ais523> you can't play out iterations of the loop in the hope that your opponent will concede
06:39:22 <ais523> I thought of that, using Glittering Wish
06:40:23 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I don't think so, you can concede very fast, and even so, I think it's almost impossible to set up a Shahrazad subgame in any sane way. unless you start the subgame with so few cards that it's an instant loss from drawing the starting hand, the players have the choice of at least mulliganing and placing Leylines
06:40:40 <b_jonas> and I don't think you can even have a loop before some player does something in the subgame
06:40:43 <ais523> b_jonas: I was planning to set it up during initial setup
06:40:53 <ais523> as in, using player choices to set up the state both outside and inside the subgame
06:41:10 <b_jonas> ais523: so you'd just set up one subgame?
06:41:10 <ais523> and then performing the one action that starts the chain of triggered abilities going
06:41:26 <b_jonas> but then I don't see why you need a subgame
06:41:28 <ais523> that's enough for uncomputablity, also for, say, solving the Riemann hypothesis
06:41:37 <b_jonas> why not just use one game with one loop that must be broken if it's infinite
06:42:15 <ais523> is a language uncomputable if it can't do anything after an infinite loop is detected?
06:42:26 <ais523> Haskell has the "undefined and infinite loops are equivalent" rule, and isn't normally considered uncomputable
06:42:39 <b_jonas> ais523: I'll think about this
06:43:13 <ais523> what I really wanted to do was set up a language that could solve its own halting problem, but I'm pretty sure you can't do it with finitely many nested subgaes
06:43:20 <ais523> (that is, a specific finite number)
06:43:44 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, that just means undefined could cause an infinite loop. it's like how some actions in C cause undefined behaviour, which is allowed to cause monkeys flying out your ass, but that doesn't mean C is uncomputable because it has the power to cause monkeys flying out your ass
06:46:00 <b_jonas> ais523: mind you, I'm quite sure you are allowed to concede even within a loop with no decisions
06:46:11 <ais523> b_jonas: but the game's already over at that point
06:46:26 <ais523> you can't concede the game after your opponent has lost it, IIRC
06:47:01 <ais523> either there is some point in time after which the game is over, or else there is no point in time after which the game is over
06:47:04 <ais523> which are you claiming is true?
06:47:11 <ais523> (when an unstoppable infinite loop happens, that is)
06:47:20 <b_jonas> didn't we find that in a multiplayer game, you can concede when a player chooses to cast Hex (he just revealed it) to save your teammate, right?
06:47:40 <b_jonas> that still works even if nobody has a choice during the casting of Hex because there's only one way to pay it and only six creatures to target
06:47:51 <ais523> b_jonas: but that's because the game isn't over yet
06:48:08 <b_jonas> the Hex destroys the Platinum Angel or whatever
06:48:11 <ais523> no, casting Hex by itself is unlikely to end the game
06:48:14 <ais523> I mean, it hasn't resolved yet
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06:48:33 <b_jonas> well, players have nothing in your hand and can't activate any ability or something
06:48:42 <b_jonas> all they can do is concede
06:49:07 <ais523> the better question is "suppose someone casts Hex and it targets a Platinum Angel (among other things) that's preventing the game ending; can you concede during the resolution?"
06:49:25 <ais523> there's a difference between game-ending events and non-game-ending events
06:49:28 <b_jonas> but the more important thing is Chaos Confetti and other un-cards, which can force your opponent to tear up their cards (with copy effect or Mindslaver or similar) or do other strange things, and the only way out from that is conceding
06:49:40 <ais523> which is that you can concede any time during the game, but you can't concede after the game is over
06:50:07 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure you can concede in a Chaos Confetti casting, even if you have no in-game choice before choosing how to drop the Confetti
06:50:11 <ais523> the whole blacker lotus combo doesn't end the game (if it did, you wouldn't get to rip up the cards)
06:50:23 <ais523> I'm saying you can concede at any time during the game
06:50:26 <ais523> but not after the game has ended
06:51:06 <b_jonas> ais523: after ending the game? I think you can probably still concede very quickly jsut _before_ the game ends, but usually there's no point
06:52:12 <b_jonas> That reminds me to that old rules hole where a particular version of the rules of chess says that it's too late to call out games rules violations after the games has ended, so I'm allowed to just make an illegal move that gives a checkmate, and as that ends the game, you can't do anything about it.
06:53:13 <b_jonas> But now I don't understand what you want to do with the subgame at all.
07:07:53 <ais523> basically to convert a draw into a win
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07:28:00 <Hogget> What is the minimum number of symbols a 2-state machine can have?
07:31:22 <ais523> Turing machine, you mean? to be TC?
07:31:47 <ais523> assuming you allow complex infinte initialization sequences (that are nonetheless subTuring), 3
07:32:26 <ais523> for repeating infinite initializations (with a fixed constant pattern in the middle), the best known is 5 (Wolfram's proof of this is buggy but the machine itself is correct)
07:32:38 <ais523> err, it really doesn't matter what you call them
07:32:53 <ais523> however I called the third symbol "2" in my proof
07:33:02 <ais523> it seemed logical enough
07:33:13 <ais523> "0", "1", "-" might work better for the way the machine actually behaves, though
07:33:37 <ais523> I don't know how many states you need if you want the tape to start blank apart from a finite region
07:33:40 <Hogget> so, symbols don't have to correspond to states?
07:35:22 <ais523> there's no real connection between symbols and states
07:35:46 <ais523> and ofc, if you did have a 1-1 correspondence, you'd only have 2 symbols, which probably isn't enough with 2 states
07:36:00 <ais523> (allegedly Minsky proved this, but if he did the proof has been lost)
07:36:36 <ais523> he is still alive, though, so I guess it might be possible to just ask him?
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07:47:05 <Hogget> OISC = 1 instruction, 3 symbols
07:52:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44753&oldid=44746 * Rdebath * (-2) Fix reversion by author
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08:14:23 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking of what you said, and if I understand it right, it would have strange esoteric consequences other than just being uncomputable
08:14:35 <ais523> yes, I'm not sure I understand it right either
08:14:43 <ais523> there are multiple uncomputable complexity classes
08:14:52 <ais523> and trying to understand the difference between them makes my heard hurt
08:15:06 <b_jonas> I'll try to explain a bit later
08:23:59 <b_jonas> ais523: so if I understand you right, you were arguing that if there's an infinite loop such that the infinite loop rules cause the game to be draw, then the game ends as soon as the infinite loop is started
08:24:06 <b_jonas> ais523: there are two complications with that:
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08:25:24 <b_jonas> firstly, that players may have choices that can affect and possibly break the infinite loop, but that the rules don't force them to do to break the infinite loop, like activating abilities in their priority. so the players can make decisions to break an infinite loop somehow.
08:26:38 <b_jonas> the second is that during an infinite loop, there can be hidden information shown to players, such as cards in hidden zones, and some of this hidden info can be needed to determine how the infinite loop works, whether it's infinite, and it can also be information about the supergame (in a subgame) or the match and affect those.
08:26:58 <ais523> well, the whole point of the exercise is to show that the M:tG rules are broken
08:27:11 <ais523> in the first case, I have some ideas of what would happen, based on the Four Horsemen thing
08:27:22 <ais523> the second might be resolved the same way but I'm less sure
08:27:39 <ais523> (can we construct a gametstate that has an infinite amount of hidden information? I can't think of a way to do it, but maybe there is one)
08:27:47 <ais523> err, not necessarily infinite, but unbounded
08:28:11 <b_jonas> so if the rule was that the game ends at the start of the infinite loop, that means the two players have to make decisions that might affect or break the infinite loop, from the information they have available, and then if it turns out that the loop is infinite afterall, then you have to rewind the whole thing, undo wishes, and even call a judge who can cause the players to forget the information that was revealed,
08:28:11 <ais523> I don't think you can have face-down tokens via any means, that'd make things too easy :-(
08:28:32 <b_jonas> for if the game was ended before the loop, than that information wasn't revealed afterall.
08:29:04 <b_jonas> note that the information they have to forget includes not only cards, but also decisions of the other player, and the strategy of the other player may indirectly hint to other hidden information.
08:29:42 <b_jonas> so this would have crazy consequences, but I would like to believe this isn't how the infinite loop rules work.
08:30:06 <ais523> so I guess the next step is, can we construct an infinite loop that the rules can't recognise as infinite?
08:30:09 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can probably have unbounded hidden information, wait a minute
08:30:20 <ais523> you can do it in casual, so long as you assume your sideboard has an infinite number of eldrazi
08:31:45 <b_jonas> uh, you can't have an _infinite_ number of eldrazi.
08:31:53 <ais523> I know, it's not a very good assumption
08:31:57 <ais523> only finitely many have been printed
08:32:16 <ais523> technically it'd only need to be unbounded; given that BfZ is in print right now, you might be able to get away with it
08:32:32 <ais523> what was your suggestion for unbounded hidden information?
08:33:00 <b_jonas> I'm trying to look up cards for that right now. I thought there was something that divides all creatures (of a player) to two face down piles or something
08:33:11 <b_jonas> it seems no, but there could be something else
08:33:27 <ais523> you're probably thinking of raging river's oracle text?
08:33:42 <b_jonas> no, those are face up piles
08:33:49 <ais523> wait no, there's no shuffling there
08:33:52 <b_jonas> no more face down than they were
08:34:00 <b_jonas> there needn't be shuffling
08:34:07 <b_jonas> it's enough if the info is hidden from one player
08:34:10 <ais523> anyway, I don't believe you can turn tokens face down, rules-wise
08:35:11 <ais523> I searched for "face-down pile" but almost all those effects only work on cards
08:35:34 <ais523> and the remaining one temporarily exiles (and thus would destroy a token before it became permanently face-down)
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08:55:22 <b_jonas> ais523: Backslide can turn tokens face down, but I don't think that helps with generating hidden info. Goblin Game can hide an unbounded natural number, but only for a very short uninterruptible time so I don't think it can be abused.
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09:21:40 <ais523> b_jonas: so the problem with just turning a token face-down (if it's even legal, which I'm not sure about) is that its identity is still public
09:21:43 <b_jonas> ais523: good question. I can't yet find a good example for unbounded hidden information
09:21:52 <b_jonas> ais523: Backslide can turn tokens face down, but I don't think that helps with generating hidden info. Goblin Game can hide an unbounded natural number, but only for a very short uninterruptible time so I don't think it can be abused.
09:22:56 <b_jonas> ais523: I still think you can get unbounded hidden info somehow (even without unbounded number of cards) but I'm still trying to figure out how
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09:55:30 <b_jonas> where the heck are set FAQs hidden on the wizards' webpage these days?
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13:44:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44754&oldid=42783 * 141.219.125.170 * (+198) Note on circular reference loop
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14:00:00 <Taneb> fungot, what's new?
14:00:00 <fungot> Taneb: and read it over and i'll set you up?
14:00:13 <Taneb> Ooh, thanks, fungot!
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14:02:25 <fizzie> fungot: Do you know anything about this bug?
14:02:25 <fungot> fizzie: and i always hit the " up" where you don't
14:02:38 <fizzie> fungot: Thanks, I guess that could explain it. Somehow.
14:02:38 <fungot> fizzie: o o oo ( on a previous one, and there is nothing novel about it. i'm fed up. please, anyone, feel free to ask your direct supervisor first. then you get
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14:32:30 <fungot> int-e: but then it just might
14:32:39 <int-e> fungot: that's the spirit
14:32:39 <fungot> int-e: the korean war must have been here to repeat ' i dispute your point!!! yow!
14:32:47 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:35:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:36:00 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
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14:37:25 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
14:37:36 <fizzie> Although it's not a good style, thanks mostly to formatting issues.
14:37:52 <fizzie> fungot: How many channels did the SID chip have, again?
14:37:52 <fungot> fizzie: 200 data 3.08, 5.19, 3.12, 3.98, 4.24 2
14:38:01 <fizzie> fungot: 200?! I thought it was three-ish.
14:38:01 <fungot> fizzie: for example, if you plan to use the listen address, this will clear the hi-res screen: 0,3,5,7 ( see page 108) or... best of all the frequencies below the cutoff. this label is merely a mnemonic device, and
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14:50:53 <b_jonas> fungot, do you often dream of such things?
14:50:53 <fungot> b_jonas: call address: ffab ( hex) 65451 ( decimal).
15:02:28 <fizzie> fungot: What will that do?
15:02:29 <fungot> fizzie: press play on cassette, even though the i/ o file will be printed for special display purposes, removing/ creating only the lower tones have had their volume cut down.
15:07:11 <b_jonas> fungot: at what rpm setting?
15:07:11 <fungot> b_jonas: call address: ffcf ( hex) 65514 ( decimal)
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16:14:08 <mroman> What was the name of that RISC-Set again?
16:14:16 <mroman> The one that was invented for educational purposes.
16:18:08 <Taneb> I think there's been a few
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16:34:06 <Hoolootwo> we haven't go to it yet so I can't tell you very much about it, I can't find if it's risc even, but it probably is
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16:50:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Golfish]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44755 * Sp3000 * (+834) Created page with "Golfish (stylised '''Gol><>''') is a two-dimensional stack-based esoteric programming language by [[User:Sp3000|Sp3000]]. It was designed to be an extension of [[Fish|><>]], o..."
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16:52:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minkolang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44756&oldid=44732 * Sp3000 * (+44)
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17:54:44 <mauris> #esoteric! i'm taking a class at my local university called "automata and computability". we have to do a group project that connects to one of the topics covered in the course, which up until now has mostly been context-free grammars/languages and pushdown automata
17:55:01 <mauris> (and the chomsky normal form, CYK algorithm, that kinda stuff)
17:55:27 <mauris> the obvious application is to do something parser-y. but that's so boring. we also touched on... well, turing machines and computability
17:55:31 <fizzie> Sounds like our "Introduction to Theoretical Computer Science".
17:56:14 <mauris> and i'm idly brainstorming for cool projects you can make in a couple of weeks that will wow an audience?
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17:59:37 <mauris> at first we were thinking of doing something amusingly meta. like, using the algorithms from our course to implement a toy programming language, then use that programming language to implement another algorithm from the course, namely, one that shows that it's TC (a universal TM or something)
18:01:00 <mauris> but maybe there's something much cooler out there. i hear theoretical computer science goes pretty deep!
18:01:50 <Phantom_Hoover> idk that's all the computer science i've done in recent years
18:02:11 <HackEgo> maur is the correct spelling
18:02:23 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
18:02:35 <shachaf> one of those sentences is true
18:02:36 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
18:02:41 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
18:02:45 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
18:03:14 <mauris> Phantom_Hoover: this sounds like it will confuse an audience
18:03:16 <int-e> so what's nooooooodl compensating for...
18:03:28 <mauris> (of second-year undergrads, mind)
18:03:35 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
18:03:57 <Phantom_Hoover> mauris, well it's just a string rewriting problem at heart but, uh, yeah
18:04:12 <Phantom_Hoover> you'd have a hard time selling it to second-year cs students
18:06:15 <Phantom_Hoover> i stopped giving a shit halfway through the proof it was computable, though the ending was v. funny
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18:09:30 <mauris> what about automated theorem proving,
18:09:43 <mauris> (i have absolutely no idea how hard that is but my guess is it's actually very hard rip)
18:14:33 <Phantom_Hoover> you could knock something basic together, i dunno how you'd string it into a presentation though
18:14:59 <mauris> whatever parts are easy enough are probably very unimpressive
18:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> this is enough to implement the entire calculus of constructions for instance http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~suckfish/busy/reduced.c
18:16:33 <mauris> like "hi after weeks of hard work my computer proved that P AND Q = Q AND P" doesn't sound super cool (but it's really a little cool)
18:16:51 <mauris> oh, i know this thing (heeelp how does it work)
18:17:14 <Phantom_Hoover> the verbose edition is here: http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~suckfish/busy/busy.tar.gz
18:17:16 <mauris> it's the c program that theoretically returns an incredibly large program?
18:17:26 <myname> i only needed like 12 minutes to disprove a = b and b = c and a != c
18:17:40 <Phantom_Hoover> it diagonalises across the entire calculus of constructions, yes
18:17:58 <myname> = is pretty hard, really
18:20:16 <mauris> it's sort of "from scratch" in a cool way. we're almost finished implementing a bunch of algorithms from the course (in F#, which turned out to be a nice language for that!)
18:21:21 <myname> prolog is a cool language for that :D
18:22:01 <myname> there is this fol prover in prolog that is the abstract of a paper, the paper being the explanation of said code
18:26:02 <mauris> also i am very determined to prove one of the theorems in this book in a way that doesn't suck, but apparently you can only prove it in a way that kind of sucks
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19:15:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44757&oldid=44569 * 216.138.225.130 * (-12) /* Quine */
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19:29:09 <Taneb> Tonight's project: implement a concurrent data structure I went to a talk about this evening in Haskell
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19:48:59 <fizzie> "Inspector Samms, please report to platforms 15 and 16." I wonder if that was code for something.
19:51:08 <fizzie> "-- The announcement “Will Inspector Samms please report to the operations room” means a single fire --" maybe it was!
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20:07:04 <fizzie> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inspector_Sands I mishearded.
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21:58:14 <int-e> wouldn't it rather be a poor boiled day? I mean, that has to hurt...
21:58:36 <oerjan> indeed. always use sufficient factor hth
22:00:12 <boily> I don't like being boiled.
22:00:27 <int-e> . o O ( and again, good morning. )
22:00:30 <boily> (I much prefer stewed, or braised. keeps all the nutrients!)
22:01:50 <int-e> (well, it's only a new day by the clock)
22:02:43 * boily mapoles int-e back into today.
22:02:53 <int-e> now if I knew IPA (and how to type it) I'd transcribe the first part of the topic...
22:02:54 <boily> please stop being another day. it's bad manners.
22:03:16 <boily> oh, that. I happily mangled the previous pronounciation. ^^
22:05:01 <int-e> another day died; Bond killed it...
22:05:40 <int-e> [at least with some creative punctuation in that movie title]
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23:37:54 <hppavilion[1]> digitalcold? PinealGlandOptic? Never heard of those guys...
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23:38:42 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: they've been around, idling. netsplits are weird...
23:39:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to start designing my ArbourDB software now.
23:39:43 <int-e> (the channel population fluctuates around 100, but I think we only have about a dozen people chatting regularly)
23:43:57 <hppavilion[1]> I am one of only a dozen people in the world who actually talks about this sort of thing
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00:28:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Box:SorryBF]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44758 * Hppavilion1 * (+197) Created Page on the hope that userboxes work. They probably don't.
00:29:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Userbox]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44759 * Hppavilion1 * (+27) Created Page in case someone ever gets #invoke working.
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00:35:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Module:Userbox]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44760 * Hppavilion1 * (+12887) Created page (still waiting on #invoke)
00:38:09 <hppavilion[1]> It looks like to get #invoke working, the wiki will need Scribunto
00:38:54 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone else thinks that having cool userboxes is a good idea, feel free to add it. None of the pages I added will do anything if we don't, which means it's fine if we leave them if you guys decide not to get #invoke working
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00:46:56 <boily> (for the record, it sounds like /æʃ.pe.pä.vɛ.lɔn.ʔœ̃/)
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00:54:19 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I'm making both a DB software and a Social Networking Site (for programmers). I wonder if I should use the DB to power the SN...
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01:00:53 <hppavilion[1]> Well, then again, for starters, it'll be a pretty slow DB
01:01:26 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll get the SN up and running with some primitive stuff then later make a DB software to run it on
01:09:35 <boily> time to incorporate the embodiement of a mattress.
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01:56:54 <oerjan> wait why am i reading MtG discussion in the logs again
01:58:16 <shachaf> oerjan: why would you not hth
01:58:52 <shachaf> this channel has among the more interesting mtg discussion i see
01:58:59 <shachaf> not that i read much anymore
01:59:19 <oerjan> because it takes ages to get through the logs everytime i do
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01:59:50 <oerjan> and i don't even play the game
02:00:34 <shachaf> i'm not sure whether ais523 ever did
02:00:49 <shachaf> @ask ais523 Did you ever play MtG?
02:12:34 <oerjan> i thought he'd mentioned the changes that made him lose interest in playing
02:15:42 <Sgeo__> Did I link https://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/3osqqe/hlist_010_heterogeneously_typed_lists_with/ already?
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02:35:40 <hppavilion[1]> So I've got the basic server up to throw the Homepage at users of my HTTP server
03:08:07 <hppavilion[1]> Should my SN do tracking shenanigans to see what to show you, or only be dependent on what you tell it?
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03:37:59 <Hoolootwo> you should track everything about a user and be as creepy as possible
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04:05:15 <hppavilion[1]> My Programmer's Social Network is coming along nicely. At least, the HTML/CSS part of it.
04:05:38 <hppavilion[1]> Don't even KNOW how I'm going to do search and content selection.
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06:20:46 <\oren\> she must be like, 50 years old by now
06:22:46 <lifthrasiir> she was actually invited by the image processing community in 1997
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06:35:21 <hppavilion[1]> I find it interesting that all college professors seem to know HTML, but little-to-no CSS.
06:36:08 <hppavilion[1]> Like, if (when?) I teach college, I'll make a standard CSS layout and use that on all of my pages so it looks nice
06:37:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i think they learn just enough to format a homepage, just like anyone else who doesn't care about web design
06:38:38 <\oren\> I wrote the CSS for my dad's homepage
06:39:49 <\oren\> http://math.yorku.ca/~watson/
06:40:11 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: True, true. But what else would I do?
06:44:23 <\oren\> or how about led-blue on black. green is so old
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06:45:09 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I was considering throwing some #0000FF in. And, of course, #FF0000, for the pseudo-stderr
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09:14:55 <b_jonas> For naming functions in a program, I'd like a pair of words that mean asserting that a condition is true and false respectively.
09:15:13 <b_jonas> I was thinking of "assert" and "dessert" but there's probably something better.
09:15:20 <b_jonas> Also maybe "yessert" and "nossert"
09:16:30 <izabera> http://egbg.home.xs4all.nl/counterscript.html useful
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09:27:29 <fizzie> "allege" and "disclaim" might be a good pair too.
09:29:20 <fizzie> Or asseverate/disseverate. The first one is allegedly even a word.
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10:09:50 <mroman> Update 20150615: Der EuGH findet übrigens, dass Forenbetreiber für Äußerungen in ihren Foren haften, selbst wenn sie diese Äußerungen bereits gelöscht haben.
10:11:46 <mroman> oh well it only applies to commercial sites :)
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11:52:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ffkhtbor * New user account
11:53:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44761&oldid=44114 * Ffkhtbor * (+23) Better defined the IP rotation function
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13:55:32 <mroman> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Essays/A_Defence_of_Brainfuck_Derivatives woot
13:56:07 <mroman> "However, some people aren't cool with that. They try to make it more minimal"
13:56:14 <mroman> Don't we already know how minimal you can make brainfuck
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15:28:47 <int-e> hmm, "essay minimization" (reduce every paragraph to a headline and a single sentence)
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16:32:33 <oerjan> <b_jonas> I was thinking of "assert" and "dessert" but there's probably something better. <-- assert is fine, what about deny?
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17:12:26 <zzo38> Is there some combination of Magic: the Gathering cards that you can gain life during a mana step?
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18:13:38 <shachaf> You mean a point in the game where you can only activate mana abilities?
18:25:33 <shachaf> `8ball when is the next olist coming out?
18:25:42 <shachaf> `8ball is the next olist coming out today?
18:25:50 <fungot> shachaf: 2) sprite y position is latched for use in bitmap mode offers a choice of four colors, three of which bank the 4k byte character base are displayed as a sys to a machine language
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18:34:55 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
18:34:56 <HackEgo> Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
18:35:00 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
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18:50:02 <zzo38> Some mana abilities deal damage; if you can grant that land infect and lifelink abilities then I think you might be able to gain life during a mana step. Are there other ways?
18:50:08 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> Is there some combination of Magic: the Gathering cards that you can gain life during a mana step?" -- I'm not sure if that's possible. You can certainly kill a permanent that triggers an ability that will net you life later.
18:50:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, maybe there's some replacement effect that gains you life?
18:50:42 <b_jonas> wait, doesn't Swans do that?
18:51:13 <b_jonas> then deal damage to yourself
18:51:30 <zzo38> Doesn't gause life gain
18:51:40 <b_jonas> (Adarkar Wastes deals damage to you)
18:52:24 <b_jonas> yeah, most of the damage => gainlife things are triggered
18:52:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does Awe Strike work?
18:53:18 <b_jonas> no wait, Awe Strike replaces the wrong type of damage event, you won't be able to get that from a mana thing
18:53:32 <b_jonas> still, there must be something like that
18:54:09 <zzo38> I guess it can, if you can make it into a creature
18:54:16 <zzo38> But I don't quite know.
18:54:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: Lich's Mirror would gain you life, but you can't lose the game from a mana ability
18:56:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: Purity and Adarkar Wastes
18:57:37 <b_jonas> ah, I knew there's such a spell in pure form. Reverse Damage (that's an actual card name)
18:58:01 <b_jonas> lets you use any source, no mucking about with the "target creature" nonsense
18:58:14 <b_jonas> there's also Samite Ministration
18:58:45 <b_jonas> crazy underpowered old spells
19:02:51 <b_jonas> (or, if you prefer the overcomplicated Simic solution, animate the land, get Quicksilver Elemental to gain the tap ability of the land, then Cytoshape the elemental to a Phantom Nishoba)
19:03:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, so there is a way. what was the goal of this?
19:07:18 <b_jonas> by the way, the crazy part of Swans is that it can replace one a two damage events that have to be simultanous (such as damage to two creatures from Pinnacle of Rage) by multiple draw events that must not be simultanous, so you get two events one after another, each of which is simultanous with a third one. I don't know how it works, rules-wise. Probably causes some wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff.
19:07:58 <b_jonas> I'll have to try to ask ais523 specifically for how that works.
19:10:12 <b_jonas> I'll have to figure out a case where the time when you draw the cards actually matters though. Probably with Platinum Angel and a too small library.
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19:17:06 <b_jonas> No, Platinum Angel is no good
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20:06:35 <zzo38> I have run my opponent out of cards with Swans of Bryn Argoll once in a draft tournament.
20:06:58 <shachaf> zzo38: Whom do you play draft tournaments with?
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20:07:43 <zzo38> This was at an anime convention
20:08:15 <zzo38> I rarely play Magic: the Gathering at all, but I usually enter a draft tournament when I go to an anime convention
20:08:43 <shachaf> It must've been a while ago.
20:08:57 <shachaf> Oh, I guess Shadowmoor was only 2008.
20:09:04 <shachaf> I think of anything before Innistrad as ancient history.
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20:10:05 <zzo38> Yes it was many years ago
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21:08:39 <b_jonas> MTG people answered the swans thing
21:08:47 <b_jonas> there's a rule 120.7 for that now
21:11:44 <b_jonas> it's not even a new rule, it's been there since at least 2010
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21:22:52 <b_jonas> I just learned something about M:tG rules
21:23:41 <b_jonas> there's such a rule as 120.7 (introduced some time between 2007 and 2010, I didn't bisect) which tells what happens when you replace some of multiple simultanous events with a card draw or sequence of card draws,
21:23:49 <b_jonas> such as with Swans of Bryn Argoll.
21:24:11 <ais523> @tell shachaf I have played M:tG in the past, specifically from 9th Edition to Future Sight inclusive, but I quit during Lorwyn because it didn't catch my imagination at all and I didn't enjoy playing it
21:25:35 <b_jonas> It's a bit hard to find a case where this actually matters, but it's possible. Control a Swans of Bryn Argol and a Crumbling Sanctuary, deal damage to the swans and yourself simultanously, with Pinnacle of Rage.
21:26:05 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's any other type of replacement effect that tries to replace an event with multiple non-simultanous events, but there probably isn't.
21:27:51 <b_jonas> I've been wondering about the multiple draws case before, but didn't find this rule
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21:31:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Module:Userbox]]": copyright violation
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21:33:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Hppavilion1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44762&oldid=43296 * Ais523 * (+720) /* Please don't copy information from Wikipedia */ new section
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21:36:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: by the way, do you know of the book ''Matters Computational'' (fxtbook) by Jörg Arndt, full content downloadable from http://www.jjj.de/fxt/#fxtbook ? It might be a book where you can find some interesting things for yourself, or not. I'm not sure.
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21:44:24 <ais523> huh, http://support.amd.com/en-us doesn't scroll vertically without JavaScript
21:44:46 <ais523> that's one of the worst JS-not-supported cases I've seen
21:45:25 <b_jonas> ... if that's the worse, that sounds like you haven't seen enough webpages
21:45:32 <lambdabot> ais523 said 21m 20s ago: I have played M:tG in the past, specifically from 9th Edition to Future Sight inclusive, but I quit during Lorwyn because it didn't catch my imagination at all and I didn't enjoy playing it
21:45:41 * ais523 accepts the cookie that says that I've acknowledged the cookies notice, and declines all the others
21:47:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, there are pages with text truncated that just don't scroll at, with or without javascript. I have to read the text by looking at the dom, the source, or modifying the dom so it's visible.
21:47:34 <b_jonas> I don't see why this is worse.
21:47:45 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean a failure in JS-turned-off support specifically
21:47:59 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, sure, but still
21:48:09 <ais523> I rank it based on how well the site functions with JS turned off, compared to a) how well the site works with JS turned on, and b) how well I would /expect/ the site to work with JS turned off
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21:48:16 <b_jonas> it's easier to view the truncated text than with many other similar pages
21:49:38 <b_jonas> there's only a single css 'overflow' property you have to disable. other pages typicallyi have like four nested elements, each of which have a fixed with and truncate, so they're not so easy to fix.
21:49:42 <hppavilion[1]> I currently have the HTML for the Homepage AND a WIP HTML for an example of a post in a datastream.
21:50:30 <b_jonas> I probably wouldn't even have noticed that the javascript lets it scroll.
21:50:47 <ais523> I think the JS just sets overflow to auto
21:51:01 <b_jonas> (it's the css rule for .content by the way)
21:51:10 <hppavilion[1]> (Datastream being analagous to a Feed, but more hackery sounding. It's a joke, mind you.)
21:51:14 <ais523> which is kind-of aggressively pointless
21:52:54 <b_jonas> ais523: pointless, sure, but not really "amopng the worst" javascript-related stuff I've seen
21:53:08 <ais523> I haven't seen worse, I don't think
21:53:26 <ais523> as long as you don't count the pages which have a box that covers the entire content saying the page doesn't work with JS off, when actually it does
21:53:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: so why did you ask about life gain in first place?
21:53:40 <ais523> it's pretty easy to remove those with an element inspector though
21:54:50 * ais523 reads AMD's guide to how to configure compilers
21:55:04 <ais523> it recommends -ffast-math without disclaimers
21:56:03 <ais523> the reason -ffast-math is off by default is that it contains incorrect optimizations
21:56:33 <b_jonas> also, I've asked for a good pair of names, to use in program identifiers, meaning to assert a condition and to assert the logical negation of a condition respectively. I proposed assert/dessert, yessert/nossert. fizzie suggested allege/disclaim, asseverate/disseverate, ascertain/dismember. oerjan suggeted assert/deny.
21:56:35 <fizzie> Speaking of pages that cover the content, I made a thing the other day that uses Selenium WebDriver to drive a real Chrome to log on my mobile operator's (Three) account page, and pull in the account balance, because the website is too annoying to log on to, and I want to keep track of it.
21:56:37 <ais523> oh, it mentions that lower down, in the troubleshooting section ;-)
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21:56:46 <b_jonas> Can you suggest anything better?
21:56:58 <fizzie> One of the nasty wrinkles is that every now and then they pop up this "please answer this survey" modal dialog.
21:57:47 <b_jonas> ais523: I hate -fast-math. and I hate how even without -fast-math, there's at least three different semantics about which particular NaN you get from an arithmetic op already involving NaN, and you can end up with any of them or a combination,
21:58:03 <ais523> -fast-math would presumably implement math using an AST
21:58:15 <fizzie> I tried to use HtmlUnit (a Java-based headless browser) first, but the compelling multimedia interface was just too much. And as for a raw HTTP client, the complicated iframey SSO login thingie seemed overly hard to implement properly.
21:58:26 <b_jonas> and the C standard permits this because the IEEE thing doesn't care about distinctions between nan values.
21:58:36 <ais523> incidentally, all this interest in processors was sparked by something that happened at work
21:58:41 <ais523> and then caused me to have an esolang idea
21:59:01 <b_jonas> However, I also blame Intel who had introduced a second set of NaN semantics in the same architecture, and the second semantics makes _less_ sense than the original one.
21:59:09 <b_jonas> How did they even invent it?
21:59:12 <ais523> b_jonas: at least when using SSE, the defined behaviour is "copy the leftmost NaN operand, and if it's signalling, flip one bit to make it quiet"
21:59:32 <ais523> but ofc this does things like make addition noncommutative
21:59:37 <b_jonas> ais523: um, sure, it's mostly sparked at work for me too, though not completely.
21:59:39 <ais523> (floating point addition is otherwise commutative, IIRC)
21:59:59 <ais523> oh, hmm, what's the exception? +0 + -0?
21:59:59 <b_jonas> ais523: flip one bit, and if the result would be an infinity, change that to a nan, but sure
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22:00:27 <b_jonas> also, they don't guarantee anything about the sign of the nan
22:00:44 <ais523> hmm, can you make an esolang based on floating point rounding errors?
22:00:54 <b_jonas> it means even different cpus could in theory be incompatible, or cpus could depend on the phase of moon for floating point operations.
22:01:04 <b_jonas> the 387 nan semantics make much more sense
22:01:13 <ais523> this is partly why I've now banned floating point in NH4
22:01:27 <ais523> at least for anything that affects anything other than display/rendering
22:01:55 <b_jonas> for an operation between two quiet nans or two signaling nans, it takes the one with larger (or smaller? I don't remember) magnitude. that is better because it's commutative.
22:02:19 <b_jonas> And compilers WANT to use the commutative rule, for both addition and multiplication.
22:02:30 <b_jonas> So this helps make those computations deterministic
22:02:50 <b_jonas> whereas the SSE rules mean that even without the sign, the mantissa can depend on the optimization
22:04:52 <b_jonas> and seriously, this sign isn't defined is just calling for trouble
22:04:57 <ais523> I guess SSE's designers decided that basically nobody cared about NaN payload propagation
22:05:21 <ais523> I can't think offhand of any program that cares about distinguishing between differently signed or payloaded NaNs
22:05:29 <b_jonas> ais523: it's not really nan payload propagation that I care about, but determinism for easier debugging
22:05:35 <zzo38> Floating point is also not used in TeX except for glue setting (which cannot be seen by anything other than adjusting the position of boxes being shipped out; it does not affect page breaking or anything else like that). METAFONT also uses no floating point; it has its own implementation for all calculations.
22:06:13 <b_jonas> ais523: if they made all addition and multiply and sqrt operations simply force all nan results to the single "indeterminate" representation, that would be fine for me
22:06:31 <b_jonas> I mean, I care about nan payloads a bit, so it would be even better to have rules that carry them
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22:06:56 <ais523> how many people use any NaN payload other than IND?
22:07:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, for two reasons, though not in a way that depends on nan propagation through arithmatic
22:07:46 <ais523> also, what's up with the long double format?
22:07:49 <ais523> it has an explicit integer bit
22:07:56 <ais523> which mostly just causes problems if it gets set to the wrong value
22:08:09 <b_jonas> ais523: (a) we use the nan that is represented by all-ones, because it's all-ones, which you get directly from comparision instructions; and (b) some programs store data in the payload of doubles to make a sort of union of a double float and other types
22:08:17 <b_jonas> but don't do arithmetic with them
22:08:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but well, that was long ago, it comes from 8087, which had other strange semantics that got fixed later
22:08:54 <ais523> ah right, IIRC LuaJIT has an everything-is-a-double model, and for anything that isn't actually a double, it uses a NaN with a pointer in the payload
22:09:15 <ais523> oh right, I didn't realise 8087 predated long double
22:09:27 <b_jonas> 8087 introduced long doubles
22:09:34 <b_jonas> it's the builtin type they handle
22:09:43 <ais523> well presumably they weren't called long double at the time, if it was a new encoding
22:09:46 <ais523> and only got their name later
22:09:46 <b_jonas> the long doubles, as a C type, predate 8087
22:09:58 <ais523> but the 80-bit encoding was new to 8087?
22:10:16 <b_jonas> anyway, 8087 has invented half of the IEEE rules, and 80287 or 80387 invented the other half of them, I think
22:10:22 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure really
22:10:31 <b_jonas> 8087 was pretty revolutionary
22:10:52 <b_jonas> with its consistent handling of rounding and mostly consistent handling of inf and nan and zeros and exceptions
22:11:02 <b_jonas> floating point was mostly a mess before that
22:11:17 <b_jonas> they came and figured out correct semantics with multiple modes that should suit all programs
22:11:31 <b_jonas> this includes such crazy stuff about exceptions that nobody uses and has fell into disuse now
22:11:49 <b_jonas> I think the IEEE standard came later, was based on those chips
22:11:56 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure of all this history
22:12:12 <ais523> huh, some interesting non-obvious advice here
22:12:24 <ais523> such as "do not allow four or more branch instructions to be within the same 16-byte sequence"
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22:12:47 <ais523> (because otherwise the branch predictor runs out of internal storage and starts mispredicting)
22:12:48 <b_jonas> ais523: more than four? isn't it more than two?
22:13:03 <ais523> at least on AMD processors
22:13:07 <ais523> maybe it's two on Intel's
22:13:16 <b_jonas> when I started to work with computers, x87 emulation was already readily available, though not universally used, and there were several other floating point formats (eg. 8 byte floating point with a 8 bit exponent, or 6 byte floating point)
22:13:36 <b_jonas> and no, I think amd, but maybe newer cpus allow more
22:13:37 <zzo38> I think state-based-effects do not work during the mana step
22:14:06 <ais523> there's also a two-byte encoding of RET (REP RET) that allows it to be a branch target without confusing the predictor
22:14:13 <ais523> zzo38: there isn't a mana step
22:14:15 <b_jonas> ais523: I might also be confusing between one-byte return, other return, *indirect* jump, or *conditional* jump with fixed address,
22:14:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: of course they don't
22:14:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: which is why you need the replacement effects that act immediately
22:15:06 <b_jonas> ais523: the branch _target_ predictor and the conditional predictor differ, and return instructions have some special handling
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22:15:19 <b_jonas> and of course it can differ between different cpus
22:15:45 <b_jonas> I mostly just hope compilers can get it right if I tell them the target,
22:16:25 <zzo38> I suggested lifelink and infect, which affect the result of the damage (which is normally, a target creature gets damage marked on it, a target player loses life points)
22:16:38 <b_jonas> but if you really have to know, you have to read (a) the AMD optimization manuals, separate for each AMD generation, (b) the Intel optimization manual, (c) Agner Fog's books; and even then you may not know everything because they keep some things secret, so you may have to make tricky benchmarks with performance counters and hope you can divine something.
22:16:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh yes, lifelink isn't triggered these days I think
22:17:00 <ais523> b_jonas: what is your job, incidentally?
22:17:23 <b_jonas> ais523: research and development in image processing mostly.
22:17:33 <ais523> I don't like the way lifelink works because it means that they're unlikely to print Spirit Link again (which is a much more interesting card than Lifelink)
22:17:44 <b_jonas> but I also do lots of support stuff handling and tracking the testcases, simply because other people don't do it properly.
22:19:51 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, about what they're going to print and what they aren't
22:20:48 <ais523> b_jonas: so something I've been wondering about
22:20:50 <b_jonas> ais523: "renown" is now an evergreen keyword, which means we probably might not get another set using -1/-1 counters ever, though that might actually be a good thing,
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22:21:04 <ais523> renown isn't evergreen, I thought?
22:21:19 <ais523> just being in a core set doesn't make a keyword evergreen
22:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> Should I include a simple API in my SN so programmers can autopost and such?
22:21:38 <b_jonas> ais523: that doesn't make it evergreen, yes, but it's still almost evergreen
22:21:39 <ais523> suppose I want to set a 32-bit register to a value in the range 0 to 255
22:21:49 <b_jonas> as in, it will be used again often
22:22:10 <ais523> is it faster to do "xor %eax, %eax" "mov $0xab, %al"
22:22:23 <ais523> or "mov $000000ab, %eax"?
22:22:27 <ais523> the first is four bytes, the second is five
22:22:28 <b_jonas> ais523: the latter I believe
22:22:54 <b_jonas> the single instruction is usually faster, even if it's one or two bytes longer
22:22:58 <shachaf> I wish renown and monstrous and so on were tracked with a counter rather than being properties of an object.
22:23:10 <b_jonas> though you can end up with the latter being worse because it's longer
22:23:26 <ais523> right, it's going to be a tradeoff between decode speed and cache pressure/bandwidth
22:23:47 <ais523> shachaf: I think monstrous should just be tracked using the +1/+1 counters
22:23:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: just get an Experiment Kraj or a Cenn's Tactician
22:24:09 <ais523> i.e. monstrosity can't be played when the creature has a +1/+1 counter on it
22:24:12 <b_jonas> ais523: no, more than that
22:24:29 <b_jonas> ais523: the two instructions depend on each other, so even if the cpu weren't limited by decode speed, it would be slower in the execution part
22:24:41 <b_jonas> ais523: as in, the second one has an input that depends on the first one
22:24:50 <shachaf> ais523: Or has at least N +1/+1 counters, monstrous N?
22:24:53 <ais523> oh, actually another problem with the two instruction version
22:25:02 <ais523> is that %eax is being used with two different bitwidths
22:25:09 <ais523> which is apparently pretty slow
22:25:13 <b_jonas> there's some tricky special handling of splitting the register because of the AL stuff, but still
22:25:24 <ais523> shachaf: that'd work really badly with Polukranos
22:25:31 <b_jonas> there's the general advice that when there's a single instruction that does what you want, it's almost always better than the multiple instruction sequence
22:25:42 <b_jonas> because if it wasn't, then they'd optimize how that single instruction works
22:25:43 <shachaf> ais523: This is how Undying and that other keyword work.
22:25:50 <b_jonas> though sometimes that isn't possible for crazy technical reasons
22:25:55 <zzo38> Magical Hack and Sleight of Mind can affect land word and color word; I made up a card to change a named counter word (it can't change "+1/+1" since that isn't a "named" counter word); do you expect they would ever print thing like that?
22:25:59 <ais523> shachaf: Persist, also Unleash
22:26:15 <ais523> I just like optimizing for size because it's objective
22:26:23 <ais523> in human vs. compiler competitions, you can easily spot the winner
22:26:29 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, isn't the mov version actually _six_ bytes rather than five?
22:26:30 <ais523> optimizing for speed is much harder to judge
22:26:38 <ais523> b_jonas: might be, I'm not sure
22:27:12 <ais523> clearly we need a HackEgo command that assembles an instruction and tells you the encoding
22:27:49 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how the encoding works right now, but I think the one-byte mov rax instruction takes an eight-byte immediate, so you have to use the general move immediate to memory instruction with a reg/mm byte
22:28:13 <b_jonas> except for setting the register to zero of course
22:28:13 <zzo38> Such things can also interact with tribute, if they check for +1/+1 counters
22:29:12 <ais523> `` echo #! /bin/sh > bin/asm
22:30:03 <b_jonas> ais523: the other thing about what will be printed. recall that there's an article by Mark Rosewater where he tells that for Apocalypse, they were trying to create a land that produces colorless mana and has a new (sixth) basic land type, for use with cards that have Domain abilities (which count basic land types among lands you control),
22:30:40 <ais523> `` echo 'echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | tail -n 1' >> bin/asm
22:30:58 <b_jonas> but the then rules team (the predecessor of rules managers) nixed it because it would break the printed text of Coalition Victory (that's a very lame excuse I think).
22:31:01 <HackEgo> 0:b8 a5 00 00 00 mov $0xa5,%eax
22:31:09 <ais523> told you it was five bytes
22:31:22 <b_jonas> ais523: that's x86_32 or x86_64?
22:31:26 <ais523> shachaf: objdump produces a bunch of junk before the information you want
22:31:31 <b_jonas> ais523: on x86_32 it's five bytes of course
22:31:33 <ais523> b_jonas: it matches my x86_64 result in local testing
22:31:35 <shachaf> But it won't work for multiple instructions that way.
22:31:38 <HackEgo> 0:48 c7 c0 a5 00 00 00 mov $0xa5,%rax
22:31:46 <ais523> and that should be proof it's x86_64
22:32:02 <ais523> (ugh, it's seven bytes for %rax? I was hoping it could be done in six)
22:32:21 <ais523> `asm movabs $0xa5, %rax
22:32:30 <ais523> hmm, that tail -n 1 isn't enough
22:32:43 <b_jonas> ais523: So, I wonder, isn't it a pity that there isn't a card that used a condition of "if you control a permanent of each permanent type", because if there was, then they couldn't print planeswalkers so easily.
22:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> I've got a demo of a post on my SN up and running on the server
22:32:57 <shachaf> mov $0xa5,%rax and mov $0xa5,%eax should do exactly the same thing, right?
22:33:16 <ais523> `` echo #! /bin/sh > bin/asm
22:33:27 <b_jonas> Mind you, I think Coalition Victory is a really stupid excuse, they could still do a sixth basic land type and either errata that card or break it.
22:33:37 <ais523> `` echo 'echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"' >> bin/asm
22:33:41 <b_jonas> And they could have done the same with a "of each permanent type" thing.
22:33:42 <ais523> `asm movabs $0xa5, %rax
22:33:43 <HackEgo> 7:00 00 00 \ 0:48 b8 a5 00 00 00 00 movabs $0xa5,%rax \ 7:00 00 00
22:34:33 <ais523> I wonder why it duplicated the last line
22:34:39 <ais523> `asm movabs $0xa5, %rax
22:34:40 <HackEgo> 7:00 00 00 \ 0:48 b8 a5 00 00 00 00 movabs $0xa5,%rax \ 7:00 00 00
22:34:44 <ais523> it doesn't in local testing
22:35:19 <HackEgo> 0:48 c7 c0 a5 00 00 00 mov $0xa5,%rax \ 0:48 c7 c0 a5 00 00 00 mov $0xa5,%rax
22:35:29 <HackEgo> echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | tail -n 1 \ echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"
22:35:47 <ais523> aha, looks like it didn't get truncated first for some reason
22:35:52 <ais523> `` echo #! /bin/sh > bin/asm
22:35:55 <HackEgo> echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | tail -n 1 \ echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"
22:36:09 <HackEgo> cat: bin/asm: No such file or directory
22:36:11 <ais523> `` echo #! /bin/sh > bin/asm
22:36:17 <ais523> `` echo 'echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"' >> bin/asm
22:36:23 <ais523> `asm movabs $0xa5, %rax
22:36:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/asm: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/asm: cannot execute: Permission denied
22:36:34 <ais523> `asm movabs $0xa5, %rax
22:36:37 <HackEgo> 0:48 b8 a5 00 00 00 00 movabs $0xa5,%rax \ 7:00 00 00
22:36:40 <ais523> b_jonas: I know, I remembered first time
22:36:58 <ais523> pity about objdump's output format
22:38:26 <ais523> `` sed -i -e 's/-d/-d --insn-width=20/' bin/asm
22:38:30 <ais523> `asm movabs $0xa5, %rax
22:38:31 <HackEgo> 0:48 b8 a5 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 movabs $0xa5,%rax
22:39:06 <b_jonas> 20/? x86 instructions are never longer than 16 bytes (or is it 15?)
22:39:26 <b_jonas> it's a fundamental architecture limitation that's been in place since about 386
22:43:32 <ais523> `asm cmpxchg16b %fs:0x12345678(%r9,%r10,8)
22:43:34 <HackEgo> 0:64 4b 0f c7 8c d1 78 56 34 12 cmpxchg16b %fs:0x12345678(%r9,%r10,8)
22:43:52 <ais523> hmm, I wonder what happens if I pile modifiers onto a movabs
22:44:17 <ais523> or, right, movabs is only immediate to register
22:44:22 <ais523> so there aren't that many modifiers you can use
22:44:38 <ais523> that's probably intentional
23:00:27 <fizzie> You can put in redundant prefix bytes, but only that many.
23:00:41 <fizzie> (Well, I think officially you're not supposed to, but in practice you can.)
23:01:56 <ais523> fizzie: actually, AMD's recommended 15-byte NOP is 14 data16 prefixes + a NOP
23:02:41 <fizzie> Yes, but IIRC AMD also explicitly says that you're not supposed to use several (unlike Intel, which just says more vaguely that it's not "useful").
23:02:51 <fizzie> I guess it's okay if they do it, but not if you do.
23:02:58 <fizzie> I mean, they're the people with rep ret.
23:04:05 <ais523> rep ret should work like INTERCAL's RESUME
23:04:34 <fizzie> Ah, but where would it read the ret operands from?
23:05:03 <ais523> ret doesn't have operands
23:05:45 <ais523> oh right, it has one that nobody ever uses
23:05:53 <ais523> doesn't it need a different encoding in that case, though?
23:05:56 <fizzie> Yes. Admittedly, it's a different opcode altogether.
23:06:18 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: no such instruction: `retd' \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
23:06:36 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
23:06:39 <ais523> haha, it has a 16-bit variant and no 32-bit variant, just like the stack instructions
23:06:51 <ais523> what use is a 16-bit ret on x86_64?
23:07:14 <fizzie> Incidentally, the three-byte `ret $0` also works around the same bug than "rep ret" is for.
23:07:48 <ais523> well, rep ret is shorter
23:07:52 <ais523> are there any advantages to ret $0?
23:08:06 <fizzie> It would make me happier, but that's probably not a consideration they had.
23:10:09 <ais523> well, I'd be happier if the bug didn't exist
23:10:24 <fizzie> I mean, people do put in "rep ret" in "general-purpose" binaries, and Intel's manual explicitly says of rep: "Use these prefixes only with string and I/O instructions (MOVS, CMPS, SCAS, LODS, STOS, INS, and OUTS). Use of repeat prefixes and/or undefined opcodes with other Intel 64 or IA-32 instructions is reserved; such use may cause unpredictable behavior."
23:10:50 <fizzie> Of course it's not like they're going to make it break.
23:11:23 <ais523> so the benefit of ret $0 is that it doesn't cause UB-that-works-anyway on Intel processors
23:12:46 <fizzie> Hm, I guess AMD's not so strict in the wording about redundant prefixes either. It's just "a single instruction should include a maximum of one prefix from each of the five groups".
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23:25:49 <izabera> why would someone use strdup in this? return ok ? result : strdup("?");
23:26:25 <ais523> izabera: so that the return value has a consistent allocation status
23:26:42 <ais523> I'm assuming that result is malloc-allocated memory if ok is true, and unallocated if ok is false
23:26:46 <ais523> (otherwise the line doesn't make sense)
23:27:48 <zzo38> Perhaps because the return value is string that is supposed to be freed
23:31:12 <\oren\> WWEEEEEEEEKEENDDDD!!!!!!!ROFLLOLWTFBBQ
23:36:21 <boily> \HELLOREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEN\
23:37:46 <ais523> how do you do comments in gas? it sometimes seems to interpret semicolons as instruction separators rather than comment markers
23:42:23 <fizzie> ais523: The comment marker is target-specific, which is kind of hilarious/sad.
23:42:37 <ais523> fizzie: x86_64 in this case
23:43:04 <fizzie> I think a non-nesting /* ... */ is the one that's common to all targets.
23:43:44 <ais523> `asm leaq 0x1234, %eax
23:43:45 <boily> the comment. marker. is target specific. wtf.
23:43:46 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: incorrect register `%eax' used with `q' suffix \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
23:43:52 <ais523> `asm leaq 0x1234, %rax
23:43:54 <HackEgo> 0:48 8d 04 25 34 12 00 00 lea 0x1234,%rax
23:43:59 <ais523> `asm lead 0x1234, %eax
23:44:00 <fizzie> Yeah, it's the line comment character that's target-specific.
23:44:01 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: no such instruction: `lead 0x1234,%eax' \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
23:44:11 <HackEgo> 0:8d 04 25 34 12 00 00 lea 0x1234,%eax
23:44:16 <HackEgo> 0:66 8d 04 25 34 12 00 00 lea 0x1234,%ax
23:44:20 <fizzie> boily: "The line comment character is target specific, and some targets multiple comment characters. Some targets also have line comment characters that only work if they are the first character on a line. Some targets use a sequence of two characters to introduce a line comment. Some targets can also change their line comment characters depending upon command line options that have been used."
23:44:31 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `lea' \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
23:44:32 <fizzie> There's also a sentence that no verb.
23:45:25 <fizzie> # should be the line comment character for x86, except when it's a line number directive instead.
23:46:01 * boily hides under his sanity blanket
23:46:53 <ais523> boily: why are you in this channel if you need one of those?
23:47:52 <shachaf> ais523: What are you getting at?
23:48:00 <fizzie> I think the thinking goes, so much of the syntax would be target-specific anyway, there's no point in trying to harmonise comments.
23:48:13 <ais523> shachaf: this channel being insane
23:48:22 <ais523> I guess maybe boily needs the sanity blanket /because/ of being in this channel?
23:48:53 <ais523> but this is meant to be a safe dumping ground for insane ideas
23:49:18 <boily> it's like observing an assembly of lions. a solid fence helps.
23:49:19 <shachaf> I'm not sure what an insane idea is.
23:49:31 <shachaf> i,i http://slbkbs.org/kj-sanity.txt
23:49:34 <ais523> shachaf: something like http://esolangs.org/wiki/90
23:50:04 <shachaf> Does it mean the same as "esoteric"?
23:50:43 <\oren\> C would be semiportable asm if compiler writers weren't nazis
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23:51:24 <boily> where was the last time I saw that whirligig avatar/logo/favicon...
23:51:26 <\oren\> s/compiler/C compiler/
23:54:02 <boily> shachaf: what does slbkbs mean?
23:54:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[90]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44763&oldid=44584 * Ais523 * (+1) /* Syntax */ fix unmatched parenthesis
23:59:54 <shachaf> imo keith johnstone is so good
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00:06:12 <hppavilion[1]> Prograstinate is going to have special pages about programming languages. Ideally, there'll be a "Find a Language" tool for if you want to find the optimal language to use for a job. However, I really have no clue what to make the pages look like xD
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00:07:05 <boily> hppavilion[1]: jacksonpollockify the pages, and see what sticks together?
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00:52:04 <oerjan> <ais523> `` echo #! /bin/sh > bin/asm <-- that # started a comment hth
00:52:34 <ais523> it still works though so I'm not really inclined to fix it
00:52:44 <HackEgo> echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d --insn-width=20 temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"
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00:53:29 <ais523> `` sed -i -e $(printf "1i\\\n#!/bin/sh") bin/asm
00:53:34 <HackEgo> n#!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d --insn-width=20 temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"
00:53:47 <ais523> needed to get a newline in there
00:53:56 <ais523> although apparently I didn't and it worked anyway
00:54:11 <ais523> `` sed -i -e '1s/n//' bin/asm
00:54:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d --insn-width=20 temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"
00:55:23 <oerjan> incidentally /bin/sh on HackEgo is _not_ bash hth
00:56:24 <oerjan> we had some trouble because of that at some point, i think it involved echo and escaping
00:58:19 <ais523> I assume it's dash, like normal for Debian?
01:03:30 <rdococ> is there a programming language based on portal?
01:04:11 <rdococ> also, when did this chatroom fill with deadly neurotoxins?
01:07:39 <ais523> it isn't full of deadly neurotoxin, or we'd be leaving it in a hurry
01:08:18 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Not_The_Main_Worb sort-of has portals, although they can destroy and/or duplicate things rather than being 1 to 1
01:08:51 <shachaf> We aren't in the channel in the sense that we're breathing air in the channel, though.
01:08:54 <shachaf> So we'd have no reason to leave.
01:09:05 <rdococ> that's true, we're like GLaDOS in that respect
01:09:27 <rdococ> managing the Aperture Scien--I mean chatroom
01:12:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aperture]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44764 * Rdococ * (+415) Hello and wel-- How dare you make fun of me! Turning on the neurotoxin right now.
01:13:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aperture]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44765&oldid=44764 * Rdococ * (+7) This testing track is a bit small right now.
01:13:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aperture]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44766&oldid=44765 * Rdococ * (+2) I forgot how to stub.
01:15:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44767&oldid=44014 * Rdococ * (+151) I love deadly neurotoxin, yay
01:16:35 <zzo38> A few things I would like to have in a new version of dc: * Arithmetic IF (for example if J is arithmetic IF then a command like "[][q][]Jx" exits if zero). * Concatenate strings. * Convert a number into a string representing that number. * Read one byte of input.
01:18:37 <ais523> what means does dc currently have for input?
01:19:02 <fizzie> Which reads a line and executes it as dc code.
01:19:03 <rdococ> now to turn Black Mesa into a programming language
01:21:38 <zzo38> That is, "J" would receive four thing on the stack, from bottom to top, the value to check, and then result if negative, result if zero, result if positive; the value left on the stack will be the corresponding result depending on value to check; if value to check is a string then it is zero if empty or positive if not empty.
01:21:55 <zzo38> (A different letter can be used if needed)
01:23:22 <zzo38> I think this would be much better than the current way of making conditional flow-controls in dc.
01:23:36 <rdococ> maybe I should make a different kind of language eg like English or French
01:45:43 <MDude> I suggest starting by looking into constructed languages that exist already.
01:45:43 <MDude> Or, ignoring them deliberately to see how weird and alien the first thing that pops into your head is.
01:48:26 <MDude> The advice I've read claims people trying to make a useful conlang tend to create simple variants of their native language on their first try, unless they learn multiple languages first. But that's for people trying to make intuitive secondary languages, so it doesn't say anything about making intentionally unintuitive languages!
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01:56:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Not The Main Worb]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44768&oldid=38315 * MDude * (+1) Transmitter/Holes would not be walls until filled with bobules.
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02:20:32 <oerjan> MDude: fke siar to rtohal
02:28:15 <MDude> I unfortunately don't actually know any conlangs.
02:30:35 <Jafet> Apparently the DWARF debugging information format contains a stack machine
02:30:44 <Jafet> Doesn't seem to be turing-complete, though.
02:54:48 <\oren\> How to calculate effusion velocities for He4
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04:37:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Infinite Vector]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44769 * Ais523 * (+16393) new language!
04:37:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44770&oldid=44748 * Ais523 * (+22) /* I */ +[[Infinite Vector]]
04:38:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44771&oldid=44524 * Ais523 * (+21) +[[Infinite Vector]]
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04:57:39 <zzo38> Is there the Magic: the Puzzling which is as good as Mitrofanov's game?
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06:33:17 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
06:33:42 <adu> i should go to sleep soon
06:33:53 <adu> it's almost 2:45am
06:34:22 * hppavilion[1] uses this information to calculate Adu's exact longitude and latitude using hacker magic
06:35:35 <adu> um, that only gives you longitude
06:36:01 <adu> my IP address could probably give you latitude tho
06:36:11 <adu> but that's just creepy
06:36:14 <hppavilion[1]> Yep. I meant in conjunction with other given information
06:36:51 <ais523> adu: it traces to "Comcast, New Jersey", which is kind-of general
06:37:05 <ais523> I'm not even convinced that you're in New Jersey (just that Comcast is)
06:37:09 <adu> that's odd, because I'm in Washington, DC
06:37:15 <adu> uh, I mean somewhere else!
06:39:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: anyways, what's new?
06:39:54 * ais523 sees a two-word title where both words end -ay and instinctively tries to interpret it as Pig Latin
06:40:10 <adu> long long long
06:40:20 <hppavilion[1]> Not much. I assume I've told you I'm making a social network? I tend to forget what I've told people I'mm doing xD.
06:40:45 <adu> so long long long long long long would be 4096?
06:40:47 <ais523> adu: unfortunately there dont seem to be many operations around for operating on longer longs and longer
06:40:59 <hppavilion[1]> http://206.174.3.247/ is where the homepage is, if you haven't seen it yet.
06:41:03 <ais523> so I might have to remove them, or allow them only with shifts/rotates, or something like that
06:41:27 <adu> x86 isn't the only arch around
06:41:41 <ais523> yes, but x86_64 is the arch I'm likely to try implementing it on
06:41:50 <ais523> I created the language to give me an excuse to use the vector instructions
06:41:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: oh yes, you were talking about html/css stuff last time
06:42:19 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it's not going to freeze my browser unless I can program in intercal is it?
06:42:35 <hppavilion[1]> Huh. Maybe it's been a while? Well I got a primitive server up and running and now the homepage is available
06:42:47 <adu> ais523: you should try opencl
06:42:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: nooo
06:43:02 <ais523> adu: I taught CUDA for a while
06:43:16 <ais523> the GPGPU stuff would also be a good fit for this language
06:43:17 <adu> ais523: that's basically the same
06:43:30 <ais523> and can do fun things that Infinite Vector can't
06:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> Don't worry, the homepage doesn't even /have/ any JS to freeze the browser /with/.
06:43:37 <ais523> (that said, so can an x86_64 CPU)
06:43:53 <adu> although I think opencl has an interesting function that can be used independantly of GPGPU stuff
06:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> So have you seen the homepage yet? I made it myself and I'm happy with how it looks, if a bit cliche.
06:44:30 <adu> ok, I'll clock
06:45:11 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there's no linkc
06:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> That's just the homepage, and I haven't got much else yet xD
06:46:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: if you're board, you should help me catalog endangered languages
06:46:05 <hppavilion[1]> The only other pages on the entire webserver are a stylesheet and a demo of how the post looks xD
06:46:54 <adu> yes, like Fortran61
06:47:24 <adu> everyone knows Fortran77, and Fortran95, but Fortran61 is dying
06:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> Except I'm not a board. I'm made of carbon, but that's about as close to a tree as I get xD
06:47:56 <adu> I don't understand
06:48:20 <ais523> I know someone who knows Fortran 4
06:48:35 <adu> ais523: I should interview them
06:48:45 <ais523> does that correspond to a year version number? or does it predate the current versioning system?
06:49:10 <ais523> (I guess the other possibility is that it was released in 1904, but that seems unlikely; or that it was scheduled for 2004 and released early, which is even more unlikely)
06:49:30 <adu> ais523: I've heard it refered to as "FORTRAN IV"
06:49:40 <ais523> I've only heard it spoken
06:49:49 <ais523> IV is a plausible spelling of the word pronounced like "four"
06:49:53 <adu> but it's just an example, I want to catalog all languages
06:49:59 <adu> starting with EBNF
06:50:21 <adu> it seems like everyone uses a different flavor of EBNF, none of which equare to ISO EBNF
06:50:36 <adu> like replacing = with :::=
06:50:44 <adu> and | with /
06:50:49 <ais523> what about the ones that aren't context-free?
06:51:19 <ais523> i.e. can't be described in BNF
06:51:30 <adu> that's what Perl6 is for
06:51:54 <adu> I'm considering writing an ebnf -> perl6 translator
06:52:12 <ais523> INTERCAL's a little weird, in that the "intended" syntax for it is context-free but a) ambiguous, and b) not LR(1) if you resolve ambiguities via any consistent arbitrary system
06:52:44 <ais523> and there's an official rule allowing you to misparse certain constructs that are officially declared as hard to parse, and most compilers do that
06:52:52 <ais523> but it causes the grammar to not even be context-free any more
06:53:06 <ais523> (in C-INTERCAL, I do a minor stage of pre-parsing in the lexer in order to deal with this situation)
06:53:53 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I'm pretty good with css/js if you need help
06:57:14 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I already have someone to work with, but you could certainly help!
06:57:34 <adu> I'm a huge fan of bootstrap
06:57:50 <hppavilion[1]> (How about a Query Language where the tables are tessellated Triangles or Hexagons instead of rectangles?)
06:57:58 <bender|> so CHIP-8 taught me how much can you do in a uint16_t.
06:58:07 <bender|> Jesus, this instruction set == mind blown.
06:59:33 <adu> bender|: MMIX only has 256 opcodes
07:01:34 <adu> hppavilion[1]: how about a query lanuage based on "The Propagator Model"?
07:02:14 <adu> http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/gjs/propagators/
07:02:30 <adu> I discussed that with someone on FreeNode about a week ago
07:02:36 <adu> I don't remember who
07:11:59 <adu> good night
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08:01:24 * ais523 wonders why "loop" is slower than "dec cx; jnz", given that they're equivalent and loop doesn't do anything else
08:01:33 <ais523> you could surely just decode loop as a dec/jnz pair?
08:05:15 <ais523> according to the AMD optimization manual, yes
08:05:20 <ais523> they say it takes at least 8 cycles no matter what
08:05:38 <olsner> maybe that particular cpu doesn't have a way for the decoder to produce more than one micro-op per instruction?
08:07:35 <shachaf> That would be a bizarre use of micro-ops.
08:08:11 <shachaf> I'm seeing loop be way slower than dec+jnz here, though. Pretty strange.
08:08:18 <olsner> indeed :) so micro-ops is probably the wrong name for what I meant
08:08:37 <ais523> one nice thing about loop is that you can use it to benchmark itself
08:08:49 <ais523> just set rcx to something high, point it at itself, go to town
08:09:10 <ais523> perhaps it's because its encoding is too short for the branch predictor to be able to handle it?
08:09:25 <olsner> it would be nice and weird if loop was really slow, but a loop to itself was optimized to just clearing rcx
08:10:19 <ais523> does loop set/clear the zero flag?
08:10:26 <ais523> if not, the two sequences aren't quite equivalent
08:10:51 <ais523> perhaps the microcode implements it as backing up the zero flag, doing the dec/jnz, and restoring the zero flag
08:12:11 <shachaf> There are several variants of loop, some that check the zero flag and some that don't?
08:13:09 <olsner> I think the loopne/loope variants do something like checking the flag and then decrementing cx
08:13:27 <ais523> oh no, plain loop is defined as ignoring but setting zf :-/
08:14:12 <ais523> wait, no, I'm actually not sure
08:14:15 <ais523> these docs are ambiguous
08:14:24 <ais523> I think it doesn't set it
08:15:50 <shachaf> I also found ambiguous documentation.
08:19:08 <shachaf> OK, it looks like it doesn't modify ZF.
08:19:33 <ais523> tested empirically, I take it?
08:19:36 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: number of operands mismatch for `loop' \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
08:19:40 <shachaf> No, I looked in the Intel manual.
08:19:43 <ais523> wait, loop takes an argument?
08:19:45 <shachaf> Which is thorough but hard to find things in.
08:19:50 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `loop' \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
08:20:02 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: operand type mismatch for `loop' \ objdump: 'temp.o': No such file
08:21:20 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | head
08:21:21 <HackEgo> summary: <ais523> asm l: loop l \ summary: <ais523> ` sed -i -e \'1s/n//\' bin/asm \ summary: <ais523> ` sed -i -e $(printf "1i\\\\\\n#!/bin/sh") bin/asm \ summary: <ais523> asm lea 0x1234, %al \ summary: <ais523> asm lea 0x1234, %ax \ summary: <ais523> asm lea 0x1234, %eax \ summary: <ais523> asm lead 0x1234, %eax \ sum
08:21:26 <shachaf> Probably better to put the output in /tmp
08:21:45 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$1" | as -c /dev/stdin -o temp.o; objdump -d --insn-width=20 temp.o | sed -e "1,/0000000000000000/d"
08:21:59 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#temp\.o#/tmp/asm.o#g'
08:22:03 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#temp\.o#/tmp/asm.o#g' bin/asm
08:22:54 <ais523> `asm data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 data16 nop
08:22:55 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: same type of prefix used twice \ objdump: '/tmp/asm.o': No such file
08:23:05 <ais523> hmm, apparently you can't specify it manually
08:23:09 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: invalid instruction suffix for `nop' \ objdump: '/tmp/asm.o': No such file
08:23:42 <ais523> `asm db 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 90
08:23:42 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: no such instruction: `db 66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,66,90' \ objdump: '/tmp/asm.o': No such file
08:23:53 <ais523> `asm .db 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 90
08:23:54 <HackEgo> /dev/stdin: Assembler messages: \ /dev/stdin:1: Error: unknown pseudo-op: `.db' \ objdump: '/tmp/asm.o': No such file
08:25:27 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#"1,/0000000000000000/d"#$'\'',/0000000000000000/d; s/\\t/ /g'\''#' bin/asm
08:26:33 <HackEgo> \ /tmp/asm.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <l>:
08:26:46 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
08:27:00 <ais523> not quite sure what you were trying to do there but it didn't work
08:27:49 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#"1,/0000000000000000/d"#$'\''1,/0000000000000000/d; s/\\t/ /g'\''#' bin/asm
08:27:54 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 2: unknown command: `1'
08:28:01 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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08:28:16 <shachaf> I thought I'd tested it in /msg but apparently not well enough.
08:28:20 <ais523> …wow, this manual suggests /unrolling/ the rep movs* instructions for repeat counts of less than /4000/
08:29:02 <ais523> I think I'd rather have a short three-or-four-byte instruction in my L1 cache than 8000 move instructions, even if they are slightly faster
08:29:24 <ais523> maybe it's a typo for 4
08:29:38 <ais523> I need to do that for it to be consistent with the rest of the advice anyway
08:31:11 <ais523> Software Optimization Guide for the AMD64 Processors, page 168
08:31:15 <ais523> http://support.amd.com/TechDocs/25112.PDF
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08:31:27 <ais523> (168 by the page numbering on the page, that is, not in the PDF)
08:31:47 <shachaf> Ah, I was looking at a different version.
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08:48:59 <olsner> it looks like some of the newer AMD64 cpus have improved that to 1-2 cycles per loop (according to agner's huge list of instructions and latencies)
08:49:38 <olsner> but all the intels seem to have slow loops
08:57:50 <olsner> `asm .byte 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 66, 90
08:57:51 <HackEgo> 0:42 rex.X \ 1:42 rex.X \ 2:42 rex.X \ 3:42 rex.X \ 4:42
09:02:03 <olsner> hmm, so 0x90 is no longer the nop instruction but actually the xchg instruction when prefixed? luckily an xchg that is actually a nop though...
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09:09:09 <ais523> olsner: 0x90 was repurposed as an encoding for "xchg %rax, %rax", which can be abbreviated "nop"
09:11:30 <olsner> I sort of expected that xchg to give the long form xchg with a rex prefix
09:12:05 <ais523> what would be the point?
09:12:15 <HackEgo> 0:48 87 db xchg %rbx,%rbx
09:12:43 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x90
09:12:44 <HackEgo> 0:66 data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16data16 \ 1:66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 90 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 xchg %ax,%ax
09:13:10 <ais523> that is one confused disassembler
09:13:38 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x90
09:13:39 <HackEgo> 0:66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 66 90 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 data32 xchg %ax,%ax
09:16:30 <ais523> (x86_64 doesn't even /have/ a data32 prefix)
09:19:16 <ais523> `asm .byte 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x67, 0x90
09:19:17 <HackEgo> 0:67 addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32addr32 \ 1:67 67 67 67 67 67 67 67 67 67 67 67 67 90 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr64 addr32 nop
09:19:32 <olsner> `asm .byte 0x66, 0x66, 0x66, 0x91
09:19:33 <HackEgo> 0:66 66 66 91 data32 data32 xchg %ax,%cx
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09:22:10 <olsner> huh, addr64 too... at least data32 is a possible prefix in 16-bit mode
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11:00:33 <fizzie> Sorry for unilaterally reformatting the output, but those raw tabs (turned into inverted Is) were really annoying me.
11:00:47 <fizzie> Also added a syntax fallback.
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11:05:39 <int-e> `asm nop; .align 8
11:05:40 <HackEgo> 0x0000000000000001 nopl 0x0(%rax)
11:05:47 <int-e> `asm nop; .align 8; nop
11:05:48 <HackEgo> 0x0000000000000001 nopl 0x0(%rax) \ 0x0000000000000008 nop
11:05:59 <fizzie> Sorry, I was trying to fix a bug there.
11:06:06 <fizzie> `asm nop; .align 8; nop
11:06:07 <HackEgo> 0: 90 nop \ 1: 0f 1f 80 00 00 00 00 nopl 0x0(%rax) \ 8: 90 nop
11:06:38 <int-e> `asm nop; .align 7; nop
11:06:39 <HackEgo> /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: alignment not a power of 2 \ /tmp/asm.s: Assembler messages: \ /tmp/asm.s:1: Error: alignment not a power of 2
11:06:45 <fizzie> It breaks a little if there's no "X: " prefix on a line, but apparently the --prefix-addresses format is more different than that.
11:07:05 <fizzie> Also you get slightly duplicated error messages because it's hard to say which failed attempt you were interested in.
12:06:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Infinite Vector]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44772 * SuperJedi224 * (+46) Created page with "Some of your data type names are rather funny."
12:09:50 <nortti> also, "paragraph" in dos-speak was 16B (=128b)
12:12:00 <int-e> fun, I had forgotten about that... probably because I've never thought about the etymology (8 words...)
12:14:19 <int-e> hmm. chapter ... book ... shelf ... library
12:14:25 <fizzie> Huh, is that where it comes from?
12:14:39 <fizzie> Quite a short paragraph, though.
12:14:57 <int-e> fizzie: I'm guessing.
12:14:59 <fizzie> And apparently pages have 256 paragraphs, although that's mixing metaphors a bit.
12:32:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Infinite Vector]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44773&oldid=44769 * Fizzie * (+0) /* Arithmetic */ Fix what is exceedingly likely to be a typo.
12:33:56 <fizzie> I'm also slightly confused re the note about complementing all bits with "a = 1 ^ b" -- it sounds like that should only be the case if a is of type flag.
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13:22:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Infinite Vector]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44774&oldid=44772 * SuperJedi224 * (+98)
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13:50:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Infinite Vector]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44775&oldid=44774 * Fizzie * (+2) Standard signature formatting is standard.
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14:23:44 <quintopia> yeah this had more to do with screen real estate and similarity of network names than that
14:25:23 <int-e> . o O ( `learn huh refers to having a problem to do with screen real estate and similarity of network names )
14:35:48 <int-e> or perhaps it should be an acronym, something like "heavy understanding hitch"
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15:23:06 <boily> quinthellopiaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaiaiaiaiaiiaiiiiiiiaaaarghghghghghghghgh!
15:23:34 <boily> Thanksgiving was quiet, relaxing, ouyaing and nutritional :)
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15:25:53 <int-e> did you encounter any restless native american souls?
15:26:22 <int-e> Or is it spirits... I'm not very good at this esoteric stuff.
15:29:13 <boily> not really... it's easier to encounter dot-Indians than feather-Indians here.
15:32:08 <boily> \helloren\. last Thursday was very productive for eating Indian food. for lunch we had a super-combo-of-everything delivered, then for supper I had my first ever masala dosa ^^
15:32:44 <int-e> \oren\: . o O ( potatos? )
15:33:27 <\oren\> int-e: Er. I was thinking of chicken tikka and naan and stuff
15:33:33 <boily> eh? à cause que «fromage»?
15:34:23 <int-e> \oren\: I'm still playing with the two meanings of "Indian" in the context.
15:34:59 <boily> oui, chu d'accord que j't'après parler, mais je pige toujours pas d'où c'est que le fromage vient.
15:35:17 <int-e> \oren\: I'd say this looks all greek to me, but it's worse than that ;)
15:36:27 <\oren\> I'm porthelloing boily using one of those clever manga-words where a kanji word is given abnormal furigana
15:37:14 <boily> IRC needs more furigana.
15:38:07 <\oren\> Yeah so boily's new name is 煮的(ボアリ)
15:39:31 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
15:40:42 <\oren\> which is better than 瘍形
15:41:45 <lambdabot> CYYZ 171500Z 33008G15KT 15SM FEW035 FEW045 04/M02 A3023 RMK CU2SC1 SC TR SLP244
15:42:17 <lambdabot> CYUL 171500Z VRB02KT 15SM FEW008TCU FEW030 BKN080 04/01 A3005 RMK TCU1SC1AC5 TCU W SLP176
15:42:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 171520Z 26004KT 9999 FEW025 BKN100 09/05 Q1016 NOSIG
15:43:22 <int-e> so warm... but we have snow-capped mountains now
15:43:35 <lambdabot> KOAK 171453Z 24006KT 10SM BKN023 OVC120 17/12 A2996 RMK AO2 SLP145 T01720122 51005
15:44:03 <int-e> shachaf must be melting in the sun
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15:55:57 <lambdabot> EGLL 171550Z AUTO 02008KT 330V050 9999 BKN023 12/07 Q1019 NOSIG
15:56:30 <fizzie> AIUI, today's high and low are both 12.
15:57:17 <fizzie> Somebody needs to restart the temperature control server, it's gotten stuck.
15:57:23 <lambdabot> LLBG 171550Z 34006KT CAVOK 26/20 Q1014 NOSIG
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17:16:03 <b_jonas> \oren\: you will add "百" to the font, right?
17:16:03 <\oren\> do you have any more character requests?
17:16:58 <b_jonas> no it's not, at least not on the test page
17:17:44 <\oren\> Ok I'll add it in the current batch
17:20:19 <tswett> So what's this font of \oren\'s?
17:20:41 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
17:21:17 <\oren\> that's a demo page, using css webfont thingy to show all the charatcerd
17:21:39 <\oren\> As you can see its coverage is... extensive
17:25:54 <\oren\> If a character you like is missing, you can request it
17:26:14 <HackEgo> U+2BE0 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: e2 af a0 UTF-16BE: 2be0 Decimal: ⯠ \ ⯠ (⯠) \ Uppercase: U+2BE0 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned) \ \ U+2BE1 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: e2 af a1 UTF-16BE: 2be1 Decimal: ⯡ \ ⯡ (⯡) \ Uppercase: U+2BE1 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assig
17:27:00 <\oren\> those are characters I ... appropriated for use as commodore 64 semigraphics
17:28:23 <tswett> What's the significance of the green?
17:29:06 <\oren\> it marks the most recent characters added
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19:38:59 <b_jonas> I found an esoteric programmer (not as in making esolangs, but as in writing programs in the wrong language or in the wrong way) on another channel
19:39:11 <b_jonas> I'm trying to convince him to join this channel
19:52:59 <MDude> I dunno if that would make sense. When the idea is to be esoteric, I don't think there's a wrong language or wrong way.
19:53:08 <MDude> So that might leave him with nothing to do?
19:55:12 <b_jonas> MDude: no, I mean, wrong language for normal stuff, which is why it's esoteric
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20:24:52 <Sgeo__> What, like PHP for console commands and C for websites?
20:25:04 <Sgeo__> (ALthough PHP is usually wrong even for websites etc)
20:28:05 <zzo38> Both C and PHP can be use for more general purposes though (many things in PHP are not even applicable to websites, although much of it is)
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20:29:47 <b_jonas> Sgeo__: no, that's not esoteric enough
20:30:07 <Sgeo__> Opa for console commands?
20:30:43 <b_jonas> Sgeo__: it's not like, you know, take PHP or some other language you hate and use it. no. take a tool that you actually like, but that is for a particular task, and misuse that.
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20:30:58 <b_jonas> such as the way people like zzo38 program stuff in TeX.
20:32:50 <zzo38> Opa for console commands does seem improper though (although I don't know much about it; I just saw the Wikipedia article). PHP for console commands is more reasonable (although PHP still isn't a very good programming language anyways, but can still be used)
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20:36:53 <fizzie> b_jonas: sed for everything.
20:37:58 <Sgeo__> Once upon a time I could have suggested Javascript for servers
20:38:39 <tswett> So I've figured out exactly what it is that makes my Ultimate Programming Language unusual.
20:38:51 <tswett> It refuses to choose one particular model of computation.
20:39:24 <tswett> Want to write some code that implements the factorial function? Well, you'd better explain just what you mean by "code".
20:40:28 <zzo38> You can use JavaScript for server and other stuff fine, if you have all of the object models needed for such thing. For example, Mozilla JavaScript has many XPCOM objects for doing many things including command-line, file-system, network connection, and others.
20:42:04 <zzo38> But, just because you can implement a chess parser in TeX doesn't mean that you shouldn't.
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21:20:15 <gamemanj> zzo38: "But, just because you can implement a chess parser in TeX doesn't mean that you shouldn't."
21:20:34 <gamemanj> I'm not sure if you're upholding the spirit of #esoteric or you made a mistake, so...
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21:43:03 <FreeFull> http://lodev.org/esolangs/gammaplex/index.html This is a thing
21:44:29 <FreeFull> zzo38: Chess parser in postscript
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22:02:25 <MDude> typo: "the instruction pointer can move in the directions North, East, South or East."
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22:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: The instructions are ^<v>, where both < and > make you move east.
22:12:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's better represented as a bag than as a set, because a randomly generated program will go east twice as often as it goes north or south (individually)
22:12:43 <hppavilion[1]> Let's start designing Esoteric Automata. Hyper Finite State Machine, anyone?
22:14:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Hppavilion1]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44776&oldid=44762 * Hppavilion1 * (+82) Apologized
22:15:03 <MDude> I want to make a turing machine but with the table of rules replaced by a neural network that can be re-trained while the program is active.
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22:16:37 <MDude> And the tape replaced with something that resembles how signals get recorded on magnetic tape.
22:16:53 <hppavilion[1]> Should I create Category:Esoteric computational models?
22:17:03 <MDude> And then implement it as an actual comptuer made of transitors, zenner diodes and an actual reel to reel magnetic tape.
22:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> Or is it implied that Category:Computational models includes the esoteric?
22:18:14 <MDude> It depends onhow many their are.
22:19:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyper-finite-state automaton]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44777 * Hppavilion1 * (+344) Created page seed (may add more later)
22:20:36 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: I'm not going to create it. We can just add tehm all to the existing category.
22:21:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyper-finite-state automaton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44778&oldid=44777 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized
22:21:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyper-finite-state automaton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44779&oldid=44778 * Hppavilion1 * (+7) Clarified (Editing FTW)
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22:28:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyper-finite-state automaton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44780&oldid=44779 * Hppavilion1 * (+371) Added an example of a type of HFSM
22:30:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyper-finite-state automaton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44781&oldid=44780 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) Fixed a formatting error
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22:40:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Decision tree]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44782 * Hppavilion1 * (+211) Created page (it was previously deleted, but it looks like it wasn't a relevant page. So I'm recreating it with actual relevant content).
22:42:37 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: You should create a page on that. Perhaps the "Neural Turing Machine" or, if you're feeling like making a ~funnier name, "Turing's Brain"?
22:43:00 <hppavilion[1]> (I think I accidentally just deleted the topic. At least on my end.)
22:44:05 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: Critical Funge98 vulnerability: Update now! | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
22:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> I believe that's the same topic. Looks like I didn't delete it, just fucked up the rendering on my end. Whoops! At least I didn't break anything.
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23:02:31 <int-e> well, at least it's all new and shiny now
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01:21:33 <lambdabot> CYUL 180100Z 30004KT 15SM SKC 01/M06 A3018 RMK SLP221
01:21:38 <lambdabot> CYYZ 180100Z 29009KT 270V330 15SM FEW040 02/M03 A3027 RMK SC1 SLP257
01:21:48 <lambdabot> ENVA 180050Z 09003KT 050V130 9999 BKN021 08/08 Q1025 RMK WIND 670FT 23007KT
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01:41:18 <hppavilion[1]> I still want to see an ultra-minimalistic markup language
01:46:39 <boily> yes, was thinking of something ^^
01:46:45 <boily> or about something.
01:46:50 <boily> or maybe at something.
01:46:56 <hppavilion[1]> (It doesn't need to be Brainfucky, but it should at least not look normal.)
01:47:25 <boily> it should be based upon troff, but more compacter.
01:47:44 <boily> have you ever dissected a man page?
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01:48:24 <oerjan> I,I "have you ever dissected a man" page
01:49:13 <boily> hellørjan. only a fish, a bird, a piglet, a beef eye, and I think a frog too?
01:49:24 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe not ultraminimalistic, but based on some esoteric paradigm. Perhaps it should be malbolgy?
01:50:17 * boily is happy to see that hppavilion[1] is now vocabularily corrupted :')
01:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> I believe in proper grammar, but also that you should be able to make up words on the fly xD
01:51:02 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Corruptic Channello | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
01:51:48 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps LML? LISP Markup Language? Probably not eso enough...
01:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> I like the idea of a Combinatorial Markup Language
01:52:54 <boily> infix formatting operators?
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01:57:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Markup Λanguage]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44783 * Hppavilion1 * (+344) Initialized Page
01:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Markup Λanguage]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44784&oldid=44783 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a link
01:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> So I imagine that to say "Hello, World!" in italics, one would do something like "i'Hello, world!" where i is the italicization combinator and ' is the quote combinator
02:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps just i"Hello, World!" where "Hello, World!" is syntactic ~sugar (~ because there's no "pure" way to do it) to make a string...
02:02:51 <boily> syntactic dextrose.
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02:30:30 <MDude> syntactic artificial sweetener: resembles syntactic sugar but is actually designed to do nothing
02:32:03 <boily> syntaspartame. bletch.
02:34:23 <boily> oerjan: what's I,I twh
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02:36:53 <boily> a mystery to keep me asleeply awake.
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02:38:34 <\oren\> syntactic tabasco: does nothing new but makes your program more complex
02:43:07 <MDude> I think syntactic hot sauce would make people who aren't used to reading it panick when they first 'taste' it.
02:43:52 <MDude> I guess it would be code obfuscation, since spice in plants is a defense mechanism?
02:44:31 <oerjan> hard to write, hard to read
02:45:01 <myname> is latex esozeric enough for this channel? :>
02:46:02 <MDude> I don't think there's a programming language based on Latex?
02:46:21 <oerjan> there is, it's called "Latex" hth
02:46:23 <pikhq> Well, there's LaTeX itself.
02:46:51 <MDude> Oh, I thought it was jsut a text formatting thing.
02:47:01 <MDude> And not an actual programming language.
02:47:02 <myname> so i am trying to build a union find structure in latex
02:47:02 <pikhq> It is, but it's Turing complete.
02:47:37 <Jafet> It's actually a TeX formatting thing.
02:47:37 <MDude> But I meant more, something that evaluates a calculus statement written in LaTeX..
02:47:39 <myname> my basic idea was just to rewrite the find command every time.i call union with a wrapped ifthenelse around the old one
02:48:04 <myname> MDude: i once wrote a brainfuck interpreter in latex
02:49:14 <myname> \newcommand{\union}[2]{\renewcommand{\find}[1]{\ifthenelse{\equal{##1}{#2}}{#1}{\find{##1}}}}
02:49:17 <myname> \newcommand{\find}[1]{#1}
02:49:21 <MDude> So I guess something that takes math written in LaTeX and converts it to combinational logic code.
02:49:50 <myname> it exceeds stack size though
02:50:28 <myname> i want to find a way to force expanding the inner call of \find with what the current definition is
02:50:37 <myname> i have no clue, though
02:51:12 <myname> i am reading about all this delicious \expandafter and \csname stuff on the internet, but i am still clueless
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03:09:00 <tswett> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=48 – this is quite the errata.
03:09:01 <tswett> Part of it: 'When Animate Dead enters the battlefield, if it's on the battlefield, it loses "enchant creature card in a graveyard" and gains "enchant creature put onto the battlefield with Animate Dead."'
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03:35:04 <zzo38> I know what \expandafter and \csname are and have used it a lot
03:36:05 <zzo38> They are primitive commands in TeX. The \expandafter command read two tokens; the second one is expanded and then the first one is reinserted before. The \csname command contains character tokens and then expand as the control sequence with that name.
03:38:18 <zzo38> You can use \csname to make a kind of key/value hash table. There is also \string to convert a control sequence name into a list of character tokens.
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03:40:34 <zzo38> I have implemented a index generator in TeX which stores the index entries in control sequence names; each one starts with ^^81 and then the text of the index entry, and is defined as a macro that expands as the control sequence of the next entry followed by one or two tokens for each page number it references. Sorting is also implemented.
03:41:22 <zzo38> (I have designed the scheme like this to save memory)
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03:53:12 <Lyka> so, does this pseudo-assembly language dessigned as a scripting language to be loaded into a parsing sketch from sd look any good? https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002%20Commands%20%2800%20-%201F%29.pdf
03:53:48 <Lyka> sketch is the code that goes into an arduino
03:54:07 <Lyka> was originally typed with arduino context obvious
03:55:44 <Lyka> hello world (well, outputting "Hello\n"): SET 0 'H'; PUT 0; SET 0 'e'; PUT 0; SET 0 'l'; PUT 0; SET 0 'l'; PUT 0; SET 0 '\n'; PUT 0; STOP;
03:57:09 <Lyka> I made this languange iand i haven't got the faintest idea how to program in it
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04:01:40 <Lyka> (my irc gender varies randomly)
04:03:30 <Lyka> printf("Hi.\n") is: SET 0 'H'; PUT 0; SET 0 'i'; PUT 0; SET 0 '.'; PUT 0; SET 0 '\n'; PUT 0; STOP;
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04:11:38 <tswett> Enchant Aura with "Enchant Aura with 'Enchant creature'". Enchanted Aura has "Enchanted Aura has 'Enchanted creature gets +4/+4.'"
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04:18:59 <hppavilion[1]> Here's an idea for an Esoteric Social Network: No CSS
04:26:15 <hppavilion[1]> I am now obsessed with the concept of Esoteric Social Networks. Humans: Idealize!
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04:45:49 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm going to take the description from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_networking_service and forgo everything it says is in a SN. The INTERCAL of Social Networks, if you will
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05:39:45 <shachaf> Why do electric showers not exist in the US?
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06:37:43 <shachaf> not qualified to answer that
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06:55:51 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmjtCW_gHIA ?
06:57:05 <Sgeo> This is not a convincing advertisement for electric showers.
06:57:50 <Sgeo> I mean, who wouldn't want a shower that has difficulty pumping hot water?
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08:40:04 <Jafet> A shower of sparks
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08:47:21 <myname> is -true even more false or another kind of true?
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09:10:01 <Jafet> +True stands for positivistic truth
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09:54:43 <myname> does it involve weapons?
09:57:47 <typical_username> you can flip text on one of those silly sides, and tell everyone else to do the same
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10:16:25 <myname> what,happens if the first var is already true? (that,is, the beginning of every prlgram)
10:19:53 <myname> a is true due to your definition
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10:23:23 <myname> so on a\nb a is false and b is true?
10:24:07 <myname> does something happen if the first is true?
10:24:19 <myname> i.e. a\nb\nc - what will happen to c?
10:26:56 <myname> how do ypu do anything non-static with it?
10:28:44 <myname> you don't have any kind of looping
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10:32:21 <myname> how do you define evaluation there? will it loop from the end of file? will it flip everything simultaniously?
10:34:43 <myname> so on your example: everything is false at the beginning, so a b sets b true, b c sets c true, c a sets a true. now everything is true and execution halts
10:35:41 <myname> because b is false. if it is execited at the same time as a b ...
10:36:05 <myname> b is only true if b c is executed AFTER a b
10:37:43 <myname> also: you currently have no way to set anything to false, so loops may not work infinitely often unless they do nothing
10:39:15 <myname> how do you do while(true) { do something }
10:40:31 <myname> let's assume your example: a sets b true, b c doesn't do anything, c sets a true. of you repeat that: a b doesn't do anything, b c doesn't do anything, c a doesn't do anything
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10:43:30 <typical_username> turn1 a,b,c=false I turn2 a=false b,c=true I turn 3 a,b,c=false
10:46:30 <myname> how do they become false again?
10:46:53 <myname> your only rule was "if the first thing is false, the second will be true"
10:47:35 <myname> so, why is everything false in turn 3
10:48:08 <typical_username> maybe i should add "you become false if you dont get any True signal"
10:48:32 <myname> that doesn't make sense
10:49:19 <myname> b should become true, because a is false. but now b should also become false, since it doesn't get any true signals
10:50:29 <myname> why? they are both true the same time
10:50:37 <myname> you could say: something becomes false if it ONLY gets true signals
10:50:51 <myname> no no, just the program "a b"
10:51:11 <myname> if should be both true and false at the same time due to your stated rules
10:52:36 <myname> why is b true in turn 2?
10:52:55 <myname> you said: "you become false if you dont get any True signal"
10:53:03 <myname> b doesn't get any true signal
10:53:09 <myname> so b should become false.
10:54:01 <myname> so you have a nand or a nor
10:54:08 <myname> that is actually valid
10:54:38 <myname> nand and nor are both functionally completr
10:54:56 <myname> you can do anything in np with this
10:57:20 <myname> well, it is a hard version of writing down circuits
10:58:08 <typical_username> true, but writing down circuits isnt yet a programming language, true?
11:00:06 <myname> not sure, i would say funciton is a bit like it even thoughbit claims not to be. but i don't know that many languages
11:02:13 <typical_username> i wanted to add like classes and #define so it would be something more
11:04:43 <b_jonas> "<zzo38> I know what \expandafter and \csname are and have used it a lot" -- I think you also need to have used \futurelet and possible \afterassignment a lot to be a true TeX hacker
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11:30:45 <zzo38> I have used \afterassignment a lot too, and \futurelet a bit
11:35:26 <b_jonas> @message \oren\ I think again you have a character in your demo page that doesn't have a glyph in the font
11:35:26 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
11:35:30 <b_jonas> @tell \oren\ I think again you have a character in your demo page that doesn't have a glyph in the font
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11:46:38 <zzo38> I think I have never needed to use insertions with negative factor or negative extra space, although I have used insertion class with a factor and extra space of zero.
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11:54:22 <izabera> http://slapit.me/ must see
11:56:12 <izabera> i know what i want for christmas
11:56:41 <b_jonas> tomorrow is the 12th anniversary of the death of Ken Iverson
11:57:01 <zzo38> I have also used the macro like this a lot: \def\ecall#1{\begingroup\edef\next{\endgroup#1}\next}
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12:06:05 <b_jonas> in http://www.dangermouse.net/esoteric/bit.html , DMM writes "This is actually true of all programming languages" in the context of esolangs?
12:07:02 <zzo38> It looks like that is what is written.
12:07:20 <b_jonas> he was probably not yet enough of an esolanger when he wrote that
12:07:34 <b_jonas> true esolangers don't dare to write such a universal quantification
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12:08:18 <zzo38> I think you are correct; many thing might end up wrong if you are like that!
12:09:02 <b_jonas> so Shakespeare predates Chef? ok
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12:13:15 <b_jonas> Apparently some esolangs use the feature that each variable is actually a stack that you can push or pop but most operations access the top element directly. Does this idea come from intercal? Or is it from the old interpreted programming languages that have dynamically scoped variables (including TeX and elisp), taking the idea further so that the different variables aren't necessarily saved and restored in a fifo manner?
12:17:47 <zzo38> Maybe it is from dc?
12:18:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't think dc works that way
12:18:52 <b_jonas> doesn't dc have separate normal variables and arrays?
12:19:00 <b_jonas> I'm not sure, I was never really much into dc
12:19:40 <Phantom_Hoover> it's how RPN works too, that might be the genesis of the idea
12:20:02 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: but that's just _one_ stack.
12:20:37 <zzo38> But dc also has separate stacks for each variable too
12:20:44 <zzo38> (As well as the main stack)
12:20:52 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: Shakespeare
12:21:05 <b_jonas> but I think there was more
12:21:43 <zzo38> Also in dc the array is part of the same variable (and is stored on that variable's stack); the man page says so.
12:21:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, then dc may be involved too
12:23:24 <zzo38> In INTERCAL the arrays are separate registers, but other than that I think the stacks of registers in INTERCAL are closest to stacks of registers in dc
12:24:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: except that dc also has random access to those stacks, right?
12:24:44 <zzo38> While in TeX it is different; all registers *and macros* use a single stack.
12:24:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, just like in all the old languages with dynamic scope
12:25:13 <zzo38> As far as I know, dc does not have random access to stacks.
12:25:14 <b_jonas> including the "local" statement in perl, or elisp
12:25:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, what does the ; and : command do then? let me check
12:26:08 <zzo38> They access values in an array
12:26:55 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, i don't think i've ever seen you use asterisks for emphasis before
12:29:02 <b_jonas> oh, the arrays are separate from the stacks. ok
12:29:15 <b_jonas> then yes, Intercal's and Shakespeare's ideas are close to dc's
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12:34:33 <zzo38> You say there is "local" in Perl, but in TeX everything is local by default if not otherwise specified (except a few special registers which have a different scope).
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12:36:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DMM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44785 * B jonas * (+30) Redirected page to [[David Morgan-Mar]]
12:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Morgan-Mar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44786&oldid=41708 * B jonas * (-54)
12:39:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[David Morgan-Mar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44787&oldid=44786 * B jonas * (-2)
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12:50:19 <Lyka> guess what this does:
12:50:20 <Lyka> WIPE SET 0 50 SET 1 0 SET 224 0 SET 225 1 SET 226 255 SET 227 '\n' GADR 240 241 INCD 0 1 CIE 0 1 224 225 READ 2 0 1 SET 3
12:50:23 <Lyka> 1 PUT 2 CIE 3 2 227 226 JINZ 3 240 241 STOP 'H' 'e' 'l' 'l' 'o' ',' ' ' 'W' 'o' 'r' 'l' 'd' '!' '\n'
12:50:51 <zzo38> What programming language is it?
12:53:08 <Lyka> i think the end of the code hints to it's purpose
12:53:25 <Lyka> i'll put on pastebin with line feeds
12:55:20 <zzo38> I can read it just fine as it is though
12:55:35 <zzo38> But you can put on pastebin if you want to.
12:55:38 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/GEMXkvLy
12:56:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44788&oldid=44622 * Zzo38 * (+445)
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13:13:49 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002B1%20Commands.pdf
13:21:15 <b_jonas> Lyka: I accidentally had caps lock stuck on. This is possible because I use a keyboard layout with caps lock disabled. There is a solution for this in the script I use to set the keyboard layout, but I forgot what it was so I had to look it up.
13:21:21 <b_jonas> Now my caps lock is off again.
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13:24:21 <Lyka> are you a typical user?
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13:30:01 <boily> typical_usernamhello.
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13:34:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Catb0t * New user account
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13:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44789 * Catb0t * (+1108) created with text
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14:03:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44790&oldid=44789 * Catb0t * (+1008)
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14:06:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44791&oldid=44790 * Catb0t * (-24)
14:07:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44792&oldid=44791 * Catb0t * (+82)
14:08:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44793&oldid=44792 * Catb0t * (+1)
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14:26:32 <lambdabot> CYUL 181400Z 33006KT 280V340 30SM FEW030 FEW100 BKN240 01/M07 A3029 RMK CF1AC1CI4 CF TR SLP258
14:28:13 <boily> for October, avg high 13.0, daily mean 8.5, avg low 3.9. there's something very wrong going on.
14:32:19 <typical_username> getrandbits(n) generates random number with n bits. Whats chance for x that x times nested getrandbits with initial 2 will generate x?
14:33:31 <ais523> it's not likely to be very high
14:34:11 <ais523> I don't know for certain, but it feels like an iterated e^-x operation
14:34:35 <ais523> something vaguely like that but not that
14:36:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44794&oldid=44788 * Zzo38 * (+564)
14:36:50 <typical_username> "whats chance that nesting it infinite amount of times will ever generate n"
14:58:40 <ais523> hmm, I'm considering an esoteric use of SQLite
14:58:47 <ais523> so I went over there to ask a question
14:58:53 <ais523> and noticed that zzo38's website was linked in the topic
14:58:57 <ais523> so presumably I'll fit right in
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15:01:36 <b_jonas> ais523: zzo38 does use sqlite, in an esoteric way
15:01:56 <ais523> my point is that asking questions about esoteric sqlite might not be as out of place as normal
15:02:01 <b_jonas> I think he also uses it in a non-esoteric way, but it's hard to be sure
15:02:09 <ais523> I remember when I went into #ocaml and asked how to convert a char to a string without using the standard library
15:02:24 <ais523> it took me a while to explain why I wanted to
15:02:53 <b_jonas> ais523: is a char one of those types with only 256 different values, so you can just use a big case statement, or a bigger type?
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15:04:50 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm not actually sure
15:04:55 <ais523> I didn't have to use a big case statement though
15:05:24 <ais523> (the reason is that I was setting students an assignment that required them to not use the standard library, I had a sandbox that enforced this, but needed to run some of my own code in the sandbox too)
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15:07:03 <b_jonas> couldn't you allow some of the standard library in, including the function for this?
15:07:20 <b_jonas> while still not allowing map
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15:31:48 <b_jonas> oh, while we're doing crazy C stuff
15:32:11 <ais523> the solution was to use the concatenation operator to create a fresh length-1 string, then overwrite its first character
15:32:38 <b_jonas> is stdin permitted to be a null pointer? I mean, at startup for the program, and it still works as a stream, it's just that the null pointer identifies that particular stream. eg. the library could be using the descriptor number as the identifier, and it's not really a pointer, but an index to a table the library keeps.
15:33:23 <ais523> haha, that's a clever idea
15:33:35 <ais523> I can't think of any reason offhand why it couldn't be
15:33:36 <b_jonas> I don't know if the C standard allows it
15:34:02 <b_jonas> but I don't know if the standard forbids it
15:34:03 <oren> can fopen return a numm pointer?
15:34:14 <b_jonas> oren: yes, it signals error that way
15:34:19 <b_jonas> that's why this would be a bad idea
15:34:26 <ais523> zzo38: War and Peace is a novel that's famous for being really long, that's why
15:34:35 <b_jonas> a program that does fopen, which fails, but the program doesn't check, would read from stdin silently
15:35:57 <b_jonas> what if stdin isn't a null pointer, but fopen(nullptr, "r") would return stdin, so that programs can just do FILE *f = fopen(argv[1]); and have pipe semantics when nothing is passed to them :-)
15:36:13 <b_jonas> no wait, that wouldn't work
15:36:28 <b_jonas> it would have to return a new handle for stdin, so that fclose doesn't close stdin
15:38:29 <oren> is there any filesystem where the empty string is a valid file name?
15:39:51 <b_jonas> oren: I think there used to be old unices where the empty string as a pathname represented the current directory, but POSIX specifically bans that now
15:40:11 <oren> I see. that makes sense
15:40:17 <b_jonas> POSIX requires that the empty string is an invalid pathname, and current unices follow that
15:41:02 <b_jonas> the interpretation of current directory sort of made sense because multiple slashes in the middle of the pathname are interpreted as just one slash in unix
15:41:36 <b_jonas> but making it invalid is better in practice, because most uses of an empty pathname are accidental, and so making it invalid catches errors
15:41:54 <b_jonas> as in, the empty string often occurs as an error output
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16:33:52 <oren> idea: a language with functions from C and lisp. the C functions are called like fun(arg,arg,arg) while the Lisp ones are instad called like (fun, arg, arg)
16:35:19 <oren> similarly, functions taken from perl would be called like fun arg,arg
16:35:56 <oren> using the wrong call syntax for a fucntion is a grammatical error
16:36:03 <b_jonas> oren: is that just objective C?
16:36:32 <oren> I dunno objective C
16:36:37 <b_jonas> "using the wrong call syntax for a fucntion is a grammatical error" -- oh, like in K&R C when you pass the wrong parameters to a function?
16:37:25 <oren> yes, but here it's purely arbitrary what the right call syntax is, kinda like how romance languages assign arbitrary genders to words
16:38:11 <oren> e.g. (map, f, A) is valid but (printf, "%d\n", x) is a compiler error
16:38:21 <b_jonas> hah! as if some of the function argument types aren't arbitrary
16:40:22 <oren> the type system might also contain arbitrary duplications like lisp lists and perl arrays which must each be manipulated with the right functions
16:41:28 <oren> the main idea is what would happen if you mixed these languages the way natural languages are mixed, retaining complexity instead of cutting it out
16:47:57 <b_jonas> oren: that already happens in real languages, where different code uses different libraries to represent some structure, and you have to convert between them
16:48:26 <b_jonas> oren: if you want to go for an esolang, you have to need something more than what just happens naturally when decades of history shape a language
16:48:38 <b_jonas> also, wait, where are your backslashes?
16:48:55 <b_jonas> you may not have gotten my lambdabot message without them
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16:52:54 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/yVf4pPgt
16:53:04 <zzo38> I think that stdin should be allowed to be a null pointer but only if the two conditions apply: [1] There is no stdin [2] Functions such as fread and so on can accept a null pointer
16:53:15 <ais523> Lyka: that looks like an asm to me
16:53:39 <Lyka> my own pseudo-asm language
16:53:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm hoping the C standard doesn't actually allow that
17:01:24 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002B1%20Commands.pdf
17:01:52 <Lyka> that's the documentation
17:02:24 <Lyka> does it have enough commands?
17:02:43 <Lyka> to be a usable language
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17:03:29 <Lyka> variables are all in mem[256]
17:03:57 <Lyka> READ reads bytes from the program file
17:04:17 <Lyka> max program file size is 65536 bytes
17:08:28 <fizzie> The standard does say that "stdin, stdout, stderr -- are expressions of type "pointer to FILE" that point to the FILE objects --" (7.21.1p3) but a null pointer "is guaranteed to compare unequal to a pointer to any object or function" (6.3.22p3).
17:09:29 <fizzie> Given that it's required to point at an actual FILE object, it doesn't sound like you can do tricks like that.
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17:29:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, then you probably can't
17:31:11 <tswett> Lyka: yup, that definitely looks usable to me.
17:32:17 <Lyka> just realized that the "JUMP A B C" command is redundant, as it is equal to "JIZ A B C JINZ A B C"
17:32:50 <Lyka> have to redo everything again
17:34:40 <Lyka> i mean, have to both edit the interpreter and the script to convert the mnemonics + hex args to binary
17:35:11 <Lyka> and rerun the script on the HELLOW program
17:36:25 <Lyka> but it's worth it, as it will lower the number of commandss from 29 to 28
17:37:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44795&oldid=44589 * Vihan * (-19) /* Comments */
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17:42:04 <Lyka> jump if zero or jump if nonzero?
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17:48:18 <Lyka> okay, removed JIZ
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18:48:55 <Lyka> so, um...I think I can use HYDRA 0002C, and, with its 4 empty command slots, i can expand if needed without altering the main code
18:49:43 <Lyka> JUMP A B: SET T 1 JINZ T A B
18:56:45 <Lyka> JIZ A B C: SET T 0 SET U 1 CIE A A T U JINZ A B C
18:58:30 <Lyka> i assue nobody understands
18:59:08 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002C%20Commands.pdf
19:00:15 <zzo38> Do you intend to have thirty-two possible commands in total?
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19:04:55 <Lyka> not sure why, just worked out that way originally
19:06:03 <Lyka> originally, i was saving the first 3 bits for something, forgot what as it wa not documented by me
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19:12:49 <zzo38> Do you have a document of encoded format and so on?
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19:14:17 <zzo38> I suppose I can guess sits working though
19:14:52 <Lyka> other than the command list, arduino sketch, and asm2bin script, almmost nothing
19:16:46 <zzo38> You probably should use other 3-bits though somehow.
19:19:33 <zzo38> Should NAND be ~ instead of ! possibly?
19:20:38 <Lyka> yes, but that is a bug in imlementation that you just caught
19:21:16 <tswett> Hey, who wants to play Magic over IRC?
19:24:02 <zzo38> tswett: I do not have time right now, but do you have software for such thing? You would need such program for shuffling cards and generating lists of cards in a pack (or selecting them from a cube) and for other random thing, and a few other stuff too
19:25:50 <tswett> I figured we'd use physical cards and trust each other.
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19:28:01 <zzo38> There are still a few things that you would be unable to do though, such as if you can look at opponent's library or exiled cards. (Also I don't have any physical cards)
19:29:23 <kallisti> oh wait no this is zzo's card game of a billion years designed
19:29:32 <kallisti> that has stuff to do with something I forgot
19:29:59 <zzo38> No it isn't. It is Magic: the Gathering. Even any game I might design, wouldn't take a billion years since I do not live that long.
19:31:25 <kallisti> I mean, within your currently estimatable lifespan it's entirely possible that an incredibly technological breakthrough rapidly increases the expected lifespan of all humans on earth.
19:32:03 <boily> it is to be assumed that zzo38's lifespan is currenly undetermined, undecidable, and may taste like licorice.
19:32:25 <zzo38> Maybe, but if it would cause increasing to a billion years then it might not be such the good idea anyways.
19:33:08 <boily> zzo38: btw, as a fellow Canadian, are you going to vote tomorrow?
19:33:10 <tswett> We could cross that bridge upon coming thereto.
19:34:26 <zzo38> No, as none of the candidates are the right one I think. Even then, there are problems with the voting system (and I believe it has been mathematically proven to be impossible to fix).
19:34:53 <boily> not even the Greens?
19:34:56 <zzo38> I am not against the voting system in general, but I believe it should be improved.
19:35:31 <zzo38> In addition, I hardly know much about the political parties so I would be unable to make a reasonable judgment in able to vote anyways.
19:36:08 <tswett> The perfect voting system would be one where it's in everyone's best interest to state exactly what their preferences are and then the system picks whichever one results in the greatest overall satisfaction.
19:36:11 <zzo38> Therefore, any vote I would make would be wrong, and I don't want to vote wrong!
19:36:20 <boily> stop being rational! vote for the candidate with the best tie!
19:36:42 <boily> (really, studies show that the necktie is an important aspect for a candidate's success.)
19:37:02 <tswett> Say, I came up with a game. A game theoretic game.
19:37:11 <tswett> It's inspired by a certain situation in Magic.
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19:37:51 <tswett> There are two players, an attacker and a defender. With probability p, the attacker is given a "response card". The attacker knows whether or not she has the response card, but the defender does not.
19:37:53 <zzo38> I don't care about the candidate's tie. What is important is their politics.
19:38:22 <tswett> The attacker tells the defender whether she attacks or not. If she attacks, then the defender tells the attacker whether he defends or not.
19:39:00 <boily> well, they're all mostly the same, except for the Conservatives who are set slightly apart from the main cluster.
19:39:07 <tswett> If the attacker did not attack, her payoff is 0. If she attacked and the defender did not block, her payoff is 1.
19:39:25 <zzo38> Ah, I suppose I can see the relation of your game to Magic: the Gathering
19:39:34 <tswett> If she attacked and he blocked, her payoff is b >= 1 if she has a response card and d < 0 if she does not.
19:39:44 <tswett> The defender's payoff is the opposite of the attacker's payoff.
19:39:57 <zzo38> Although the game of Magic: the Gathering is more complicated than that, but there can be similar things.
19:40:36 <kallisti> did he disappear into the black oblivion of the outer void?
19:40:45 <boily> khellosti. haven't seen him in a long time. same for Bike.
19:42:10 <tswett> So if she doesn't have the card, she wants to attack if and only if the defender is not going to block. If she does have the card, she definitely wants to attack, and she also wants the defender to block (or doesn't care either way).
19:42:37 <tswett> Let's just say that b > 1.
19:42:51 <tswett> So if she has the card, she definitely wants to attack, and she also wants him to block.
19:43:11 <tswett> Meanwhile, the defender wants to block if and only if the attacker does not have a response card.
19:43:48 <tswett> And the question is, of course, what's the Nash equilibrium?
19:44:00 <kallisti> anyone here familiar with vinyl in haskell?
19:44:09 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure my code is more complex than it needs to be
19:45:53 <kallisti> like look at this nonsense: https://github.com/kallisti-dev/hs-webdriver/blob/vinyl-capabilities/src/Test/WebDriver/Capabilities.hs
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20:03:42 <izabera> do you ever feel the need to have irc logs in sql?
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20:13:08 <b_jonas> you're talking about M:tG again, great
20:13:18 <b_jonas> izabera: I think zzo38 does that
20:13:37 <b_jonas> izabera: plus I think Tanktalus's logs of the chatterbox are stored in some sort of database too
20:13:44 <shachaf> I think ircbrowse.net uses postgres?
20:16:10 <tswett> Huh. "Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa's Atarka Red" contains six fetch lands that can only be used for one basic land type, because he doesn't have any of the other basic land type.
20:17:03 <tswett> Well, the question I had at first was, why would you use a Swamp/Mountain fetch land instead of a Mountain, when you don't have any Swamps?
20:17:05 <b_jonas> tswett: fetchlands are still useful for deck thinning, and possibly for shuffling or for triggering landfall effects
20:17:13 <tswett> There's no landfall either.
20:17:21 <b_jonas> tswett: then at least deck thinning
20:17:35 <b_jonas> possibly shuffling effects, if that's relevant to the deck
20:17:45 <b_jonas> (I have at least one deck where the shuffling _is_ useful)
20:17:55 <shachaf> The swamp/mountain land can fetch a mountain/forest land.
20:18:26 <shachaf> Which is also in that deck.
20:18:52 <tswett> That's the benefit that I noticed.
20:19:24 <b_jonas> oh right, Atarka means it's three colored, right?
20:19:48 <b_jonas> and there's a new set of lands with two basic land types in Standard now
20:20:02 <tswett> Atarka's Command is only red–green.
20:21:34 <tswett> As are the cards representing Atarka.
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20:41:00 <izabera> zzo38: what do you do with your logs? and i don't know Tanktalus
20:43:38 <tswett> Hmmm. You can play Endless One for free and it'll insta-die, right?
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21:23:29 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, I believe you can
21:23:37 <b_jonas> it might even survive if you have the right effects
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21:30:14 <tswett> Death-B-Gone. W. Enchantment. Permanents you control can't die.
21:32:49 <tswett> shachaf: how does what work?
21:32:58 <nortti> what language is that?
21:33:02 <shachaf> "Permanents you control can't die."
21:33:26 <tswett> '700.4. The term dies means “is put into a graveyard from the battlefield.”'
21:33:35 <tswett> nortti: what language is "nortti"?
21:34:25 <shachaf> Yes, but what would happen?
21:34:27 <tswett> Never mind, I looked it up on Wiktionary.
21:34:29 <shachaf> '700.6. The term dies means "is put into a graveyard from the battlefield." It is used only when referring to creatures.'
21:34:49 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
21:34:50 <nortti> tswett: none, altho it has roots in 10y.o. nortti picking "nörtti" as a handle on a programming site
21:35:03 <tswett> shachaf: when is that copy of the rules from?
21:35:25 <tswett> They're obsolete. My quote is from the September 26, 2015 rules.
21:36:04 <shachaf> Unfortunately Wizards of the Coast likes to hide the most recent rules in a convenient form from the top Google search result.
21:36:26 <lambdabot> http://www.wizards.com/magic/comprules/MagicCompRules_20121001.txt
21:37:47 <shachaf> Well, I was replacing the first two letters of your nick with "yo".
21:38:09 <yorick> shachaf: and nothing happened
21:38:19 <shachaf> I was trying to remember who you were, but I think I may have confused you with someone else.
21:39:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: crazy idea, how much rules change would it take to support an enchantment with the text “You may play land cards you own from the battlefield.” ? The rules would need to make sure it's the printed values that matter for what you can play, so you can't play a permanent that's a land right now, and especially not a face down sorcery card or a token, plus it would have to treat playing the land as a zone change, so the card counts as leaving the
21:40:06 <b_jonas> (cont) plus it would have to treat playing the land as a zone change, so the card counts as leaving the battlefield then the land entering the battlefield as a new object with clear identity and statuses.
21:40:58 <b_jonas> the card could be called "Cycle of Nature" perhaps
21:42:23 <shachaf> Maybe doing it flicker-style would be more standard?
21:43:12 <shachaf> "Exile target land you control. You may play that card from exile until end of turn."
21:43:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, the point is, it has to count as playing a land, so that you're allowed it only once by default, as a normal action at your priority in the main phase of your own turn, just like with Crucible of Worlds
21:43:19 <shachaf> Of course that's different in many ways.
21:43:26 <b_jonas> it has to count as your normal land drop
21:43:45 <b_jonas> It's not a once effect, it's a continuous effect.
21:43:56 <b_jonas> Plus, the text would be a lot less elegant that way.
21:44:03 <shachaf> Right. But maybe you can do something in that style.
21:44:17 <shachaf> Playing cards from the battlefield seems like a big change.
21:44:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: how is it a big change, compared to playing cards from your hand, graveyard, or exile?
21:46:03 <b_jonas> casting from the battlefield would be even easier, because that's already a zone change.
21:46:16 <shachaf> Playing seems to involve a zone change, like you said.
21:46:45 <b_jonas> I think there's a rule that if you exile a card from exile, that counts as a zone change,
21:46:47 <shachaf> But I agree now that flicker-style wouldn't work too well here.
21:47:05 <b_jonas> only there the rules don't have to handle triggers specifically because there's probably no relevant triggers.
21:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a programming language in which the only way to access variables is to play Regex Golf would be interesting.
21:53:06 <hppavilion[1]> (And if you fuck up your regexes, it's non-deterministic, which may be useful for advanced programmers)
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22:02:55 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a language just now where you have to play Regex Golf to reference a variable
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22:18:14 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: [syːlɔʋ] hth
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22:26:28 <oerjan> if you like. it's long, anyway.
22:29:57 <oerjan> basically, in a stressed syllable the vowel is long unless the following consonant is
22:30:22 <oerjan> but only the consonant is marked in the orthography.
22:31:05 <oerjan> clusters count as long unless it's a compound word, or something like that
22:31:41 <oerjan> storm : short o, stormåse : long o (and å)
22:31:42 <shachaf> \oren\: I would say that you use "an" instead of "a" in front of a word iff the word begins with a glottal stop.
22:32:18 <oerjan> um, is the glottal stop actually pronounced after "an"
22:32:34 <oerjan> istr from previous discussion that it's mostly only pronounced after a pause
22:32:53 <shachaf> I pronounce "an hour" with a glottal stop.
22:32:59 <oerjan> although it probably depends on dialect like everything else english
22:33:01 <shachaf> I can imagine people pronouncing it without one, though.
22:33:06 <oerjan> well, but are you a native speaker
22:33:16 <shachaf> English was my first language, I'm told.
22:33:17 <oerjan> (neither am i, of course)
22:33:28 <oerjan> and you never lost it?
22:33:31 <shachaf> But I didn't speak it from age 3 to 10 or so.
22:33:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: did you speak some other language during that time?
22:33:47 <shachaf> And I have a non-American accent.
22:33:52 <oerjan> sounds like a research subject
22:34:15 <tswett> I certainly don't pronounce "an hour" with a glottal stop.
22:34:18 <shachaf> At age 3 -- I'm told -- I decided to forget English.
22:34:35 <tswett> A wise and mature decision.
22:34:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: wait, forget, as in you also no longer understood it?
22:35:04 <oerjan> tswett: istr that people don't always hear if they do. do you pronounce it in the beginning of sentences?
22:35:14 <oerjan> (also from the previous discussion)
22:35:16 <shachaf> I'm not sure that we mean the same thing by "glottal stop".
22:35:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh by the way, about glottal stops
22:35:37 <b_jonas> I asked David in a comment and he replied
22:35:49 <shachaf> That was about Hebrew, right?
22:36:06 <tswett> It definitely feels like air is exiting my lungs continuously throughout the phrase.
22:36:08 <oerjan> theoretically, english might have two glottal stops, one strong in the beginning of sentence that even english-speakers notice, and one weak elsewhere that only linguists and foreigners do
22:36:22 <b_jonas> shachaf, oerjan: http://www.madore.org/cgi-bin/comment.pl/showcomments?href=http%3a%2f%2fwww.madore.org%2f~david%2fweblog%2f2015-09.html%23d.2015-09-10.2318
22:37:11 <b_jonas> tswett: um, air can still exit from your lungs, it just gets buffered a bit in your throat during the glottal stop
22:38:16 <tswett> I think I just might record myself saying "about an hour" a couple times.
22:38:57 <tswett> What's a good audiobin site?
22:39:16 <shachaf> I wouldn't be able to listen until this evening.
22:40:35 <tswett> I think it's perfectly likely that I sometimes use a glottal stop there, but I'm pretty sure I don't always.
22:40:37 <oerjan> shachaf: hm a game like those touch typing games, except you actually have to pronounce weird sounds
22:41:31 <oerjan> tswett: for proper science you need to repeat it for about an hour, hth
22:42:05 <shachaf> You pronounce "hour" and "our" the same, right?
22:42:06 <oerjan> then you can combine it with a test of sore throat medication
22:44:56 <oerjan> b_jonas: wtf that comment section is in reverse order
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22:56:04 <shachaf> No need to ruin everything.
22:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you raise a matrix to a power or raise a number to the power of a matrix?
22:58:53 <Phantom_Hoover> number to a matrix is pretty cool, you use the power series
22:59:23 <fizzie> Matrix to an integer power isn't easy if the matrix isn't square. (Or, from another point, it's real easy.)
22:59:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about my semiesolang. The one where you can do, for example, `I = comb{SKK}`
23:00:17 <Phantom_Hoover> and you can't raise a square matrix to a negative power if it's singular
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23:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> What other weird ideas could my language incorporate...
23:03:20 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], matrices are linear transformations, you can't invert them if they map two things to the same point
23:04:15 <hppavilion[1]> I really have no clue what you just said. My knowledge of elementary algebra is one year of algebra I, half a semester of algebra II
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23:04:32 <hppavilion[1]> And a little bit of stuff about complexes, imaginaries, etc.
23:05:16 <oerjan> if a matrix is normal, then you can apply any complex analytic function that's defined on its eigenvalues hth
23:05:24 <hppavilion[1]> Ooooooh. Now I get matrix powers and how it only works with square matrices xD. Silly me, I forgot that matrix multiplication is weird.
23:05:55 <fizzie> You can also take a logarithm of a matrix X, just by finding Y for e^Y = X, where the matrix exponential e^Y is defined by the power series Phantom_Hoover mentions, \sum_k (1/k!) Y^k.
23:06:24 <oerjan> or hm is normality even needed there
23:06:26 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], it makes waaay more sense once you understand linear transformations, hth
23:06:57 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Transformations like translation/rotation/reflection/scaling?
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23:07:08 <hppavilion[1]> I probably just revealed the true level of ignorance I posess
23:07:19 <oerjan> "normal" here is in the A*A = AA* sense
23:07:19 <fizzie> Translation's not linear. Unless you go all homogenous coordinates.
23:07:56 <oerjan> i guess that automatically implies diagonalizability
23:07:59 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really understand them in the context of matrices though (I had no clue what they were talking about during that chapter). And that's probably necessary.
23:08:24 <fizzie> (Rotation, reflection and scaling all are.)
23:08:25 <oerjan> normal means you can use any _continuous_ function
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23:09:16 <oerjan> hm what i'm saying may be "trivial" for matrices (i learned it for operators / C*-algebras)
23:09:46 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I think I've heard of them, but not realy, no xD.
23:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, a vector of length one, according to Wikipedia.
23:10:20 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i'm p. sure what you said is exactly correct for a jordan normal form
23:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> But I also know that there are a lot of ways that vectors can be defined.
23:10:45 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], right, but the main thing is that you can uniquely define each point in R^n as a sum of unit vectors
23:11:26 <hppavilion[1]> I can't really tell because we're using ASCII (ostensibly)
23:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm thinking that my language will do some XMLy GUI stuff, because normal GUI stuff is hard.
23:13:08 <Phantom_Hoover> so a linear transformation is a function f : R^n -> R^m such that if you know f(u) for each unit vector u, you can calculate f for any point in R^n just from summing the f(u)s
23:13:22 <fizzie> I like how you worked "F U" in there.
23:14:15 <Phantom_Hoover> the columns of a matrix are precisely the values of f(u) for the unit vector along each axis
23:14:31 <fizzie> Although I think this discussion needs to mention a basis at some point.
23:15:01 <fizzie> Otherwise you have too many unit vectors to speak of.
23:15:01 <oerjan> everyone knows a discussion without a basis can never stop
23:15:12 <Phantom_Hoover> i said 'unit vectors' instead, it meant one less concept to explain
23:15:38 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: When I look at "\"F U\"" all I can see is the F combinator being applied to the U combinator with no arguments. Seriously. Not even kidding. I think I need to get out more.
23:15:46 <oerjan> i think unit vector means something different hth
23:15:46 <fizzie> Yes, but it got all muddied up because unit vectors already got defined as any vector of length 1, thanks to Wikipedia.
23:16:10 <Phantom_Hoover> unit vectors along the axis? shit idk what they were called
23:16:34 <Guest98361> a unit vector is a vector of length 1 unit. It has nothing to do with direction.
23:16:54 <oerjan> Guest98361: WHO ARE YOU
23:17:00 <HackEgo> Guest98361: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:17:37 <fizzie> Wikipedia says "versors", which somehow sounds really old-fashioned. "Versors i, j, k of the Cartesian axes x, y, z for a three-dimensional Euclidean space. Every vector a in that space is a linear combination of these versors."
23:17:54 <shachaf> I thought people were talking about general vector spaces.
23:18:16 <fizzie> oerjan: "In geometry and physics, the versor of an axis or of a vector is a unit vector indicating its direction." That's what they say.
23:18:30 <fizzie> It also sounds like an obscure job title in an academical context.
23:18:40 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm pretty sure i don't recall ever seeing that before
23:18:41 <fizzie> Please see the versor of the university for this'n'that.
23:19:00 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover -----###
23:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone feel like defining Gaussian Integers in λ-calculus? xD.
23:19:23 <hppavilion[1]> (Kidding. Unless someone actually feels like doing something like that.)
23:19:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: take a pair of ordinary integers. QED.
23:19:57 <hppavilion[1]> Though I suppose technically you could take any infinite pattern and say it represents gaussian integers, the trick is making operations that work on it
23:19:59 <Phantom_Hoover> if they're infinite dimensional you need to do functional analysis, and if they're not then all the shit with the axioms is just wasted time until you prove they're all F^n
23:20:24 <fizzie> "A rig is a riNg without Negatives." That's so punny.
23:20:56 <Phantom_Hoover> so if you have a ring without negatives or identity it's a rg?
23:22:30 <hppavilion[1]> So could I represent gaussian integers INCLUDING negative values in it? Or would I be limited to just hte "gaussian naturals"
23:24:44 <hppavilion[1]> OR we could invent an entirely alien number system
23:25:50 <Phantom_Hoover> you're not trying to invent a new number system, you're trying to find a clever representation of the gaussian integers in the lambda calculus
23:27:44 <hppavilion[1]> That, since encoding Gaussian Integers into the λ-calculus sounds hard, I could instead make up something completely alien, in the way that an eldritch abomination may see the world.
23:28:12 <hppavilion[1]> Or that they /would/ see the world if they'd been paying attention in /eldribra/
23:28:41 <shachaf> Encoding Gaussian integers might be hard, but encoding arbitrary algebraic data types is pretty easy.
23:29:03 <shachaf> And once you do that you can encode integers with it.
23:30:07 <shachaf> Are the p-adics harder to encode than the reals?
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23:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> So I would guess that this entirely alien arithmetic would be based on something /other/ than 1, 2, 3, 4, 5...
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23:35:04 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I would guess they're of equal difficulty, or that the p-adics are only slightly harder once you've figured out the reals.
23:35:13 <hppavilion[1]> Can p-adics have infinite numbers /after/ the decimal point?
23:36:24 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I was told the p-adics were like rationals, except the area before the decimal point can be infinite. Was I lied to?
23:36:48 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I'm thinking of something else, or maybe I was dreaming.
23:37:28 <shachaf> I doubt you were lied to, but maybe there was a misunderstanding.
23:37:45 <shachaf> Generally there is no decimal point.
23:38:55 <shachaf> You don't need one to define multiplicative inverses.
23:44:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: generally you only allow finitely many numbers after the decimal point in p-adics, because that's exactly what you need to make them a field.
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23:44:56 <shachaf> oerjan: You have numbers after the decimal point?
23:45:18 <oerjan> shachaf: or digits, whatev
23:45:30 <shachaf> You have digits after the decimal point?
23:45:54 <oerjan> for the p-adic fields you do. for the p-adic integers you don't.
23:46:19 <oerjan> the former is basically the obvious field extension of the latter.
23:47:47 <oerjan> i think the p-adic integers are easier than the reals, computationally. no pesky problem with whether you're close to 0 or not.
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23:48:47 <oerjan> no problem affecting finding the digits, anyway.
23:50:08 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: yo
23:50:19 <augur> sup my ghostly vacuum cleaner friend
23:50:42 <hppavilion[1]> I thought he was just a canadian guy who lives in an Opera House...
23:51:06 <hppavilion[1]> ("Hoover" can mean Canadian, correct? I hope it's not derogatory if it does xD)
23:51:42 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure the most famous Hoover was not canadian
23:53:09 <oerjan> arnold doesn't even show up on the google hit page, not even if i add site:wikipedia.org
23:54:22 <oerjan> ok i can see that, even adding "arnold" didn't really make any bells ring.
23:55:48 <shachaf> Going by the Google hits, Herbert would seem to be much more famous.
23:56:04 <shachaf> But Hoover certainly seems to be the most famous J. Edgar.
23:56:45 <hppavilion[1]> (Which, last time I checked, puts it in the range of "acceptable brainfuck derivative"
23:56:50 <oerjan> shachaf: hm herbert came second for me
23:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should create a BrainfuckDerivative: namespace so that you don't get spammed with BF derivatives when you hit "Random"
23:57:22 <shachaf> I don't see J. Edgar on the first page.
23:57:42 <oerjan> oh my top hits are on the norwegian wikipedia.
23:58:13 <shachaf> Ah, the google.no results are more like yours.
23:58:32 <hppavilion[1]> That'd fix the BF derivative plague, we just quarantine them to where no one can find one
23:58:59 <hppavilion[1]> s/can find one/will accidentally stumble across one while looking for something good/
23:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> But then we'd need a "random BF derivative" button...
23:59:25 <oerjan> removing that site gives herbert a way down, after a lot of vacuuming
00:00:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i suppose it is possible that j. edgar had more influence _outside_ america.
00:00:10 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: i can try!
00:01:19 <hppavilion[1]> *Sigh*. I've just potentially fixed a massive plague threatening our people and no one can hear me. Woe is me.
00:01:21 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I'm actually half serious about that idea. <-- hm, i've idly thought that at times
00:01:47 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Thought about that iea or thought that exact sentence?
00:02:16 <Phantom_Hoover> augur, ok, where the fuck is derek smart from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovJjOGaIRaw
00:02:37 <oerjan> otoh i've also been thinking that it doesn't help that we've had brainfuck featured for over a year (is it over two years, now?)
00:03:29 <hppavilion[1]> Probably. I wasn't around two years ago. I just became active on IRC last summer.
00:03:40 <shachaf> Perhaps that's the source of all the derivatives.
00:03:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'd stumbled across the site before a few times though; it almost seems it was calling to me.
00:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> Sort of like the word "Utopia" keeps popping up in my life and it's creepy
00:04:15 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: mostly american, but with a hint of something else
00:05:08 <augur> given that he's from south florida, i'm going to guess cuban spanish
00:05:12 <hppavilion[1]> (I have a friend who made an anime called "Utopia". Another unrelated friend who started making a gaming company called "UtopiaGaming". I was walking home one day and I saw a license plate that said "Utopia" on it. I'm beginning to get freaked out.)
00:05:44 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: welcome to the channel of synchronicity hth
00:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> Synchronicity? What does that mean in this context?
00:07:12 <shachaf> @pinky the same thing it means in every context
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00:07:55 <hppavilion[1]> I've never actually heard the word "Synchronicity" and can't derive a valid meaning in that sentence from its greko-latin roots
00:08:34 <oerjan> it's a term defined as basically the thing you've been experiencing
00:09:20 <oerjan> when things seem connected despite there being no plausible physical cause
00:09:58 <shachaf> @pinky the same thing we do every night, pinky
00:09:59 <lambdabot> Well, I think so Brain, but what if we stick to the seat covers?
00:10:56 <hppavilion[1]> That is probably it. Maybe the word "Utopia" is just more popular than I realize
00:11:00 <oerjan> and too often to be a coincidence
00:11:22 <augur> Phantom_Hoover: could also be influenced by haitian creole since we have a large haitian population here as well. hard to tell, since he has very little trace of whatever it is
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00:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> What command should BF⁂ use to call the function referenced by the value of the current cell?
00:17:28 <hppavilion[1]> I want to avoid using characters that match /[a-zA-Z0-9]/
00:18:28 <shachaf> I think if you have functions you've already given up on that.
00:20:34 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: It's actually very strange system, possibly similar to omnifuck (or maybe I just misunderstood omnifuck)
00:21:51 <hppavilion[1]> You define a function with `={code}`, which takes the value in the current cell, interprets it as an integer, and maps that integer to the code between the {}s. Then to call it, you set the current cell to the correct key and use a certain command
00:22:20 <hppavilion[1]> It's more of a 0-argument procedure than a function
00:27:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44796&oldid=44752 * Hppavilion1 * (+282) Fucntion Commands started (unfinished)
00:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see an esolang where all lines are of this form:
00:29:06 <hppavilion[1]> (NAME is /[a-zA-Z_][a-zA-Z0-9_]*/ and SPECIALCHAR is /[^;]/, evaluated after NAME)
00:32:30 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose it'd be a bit more complicated than that, but...
00:33:59 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps an even more simple language of the form line = SPECIALCHAR, NAME ";";
01:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> OK. Got a lexer/parser/AST working. Now I just need an executer
01:02:04 <hppavilion[1]> There are three types of instructions: Prefix, postfix, and infix
01:12:06 <lifthrasiir> hppavilion[1]: in general, given F is one or more fixed tokens and _ is a subexpression, we have F_ (prefix), _F (postfix), _F_ (infix), F ("nofix" or atomic token), F_F ("padfix" or parentheses-like), _F_F (subscription- or indexing-like), F_F_ (prefixed indexing-like) and so on
01:12:50 <lifthrasiir> there are also generalized infix like _(F_)* (examples include Python's comparison operators)
01:13:46 <hppavilion[1]> padfix might be a problem though; I don't know how to make it line up with my rule that every operator should have a meaning in any context
01:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> So should I just make it so that in padfix notation, both operators must be the same?
01:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> It is a weird type of language where you can't nest instructions
01:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> I don't love that, because then you can't do x[y];
01:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> But it's better than having to define exponentially more operators for each combination
01:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> ANOTHER IDEA: language where all code must be an arithmetic expression
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01:25:37 <oerjan> hm he just showed up in both the channels i'm in
01:26:04 <oerjan> that's not context-free
01:26:48 <hppavilion[1]> Yay! I made a language that surpasses context-freeness!
01:26:59 <hppavilion[1]> I hope that's a good thing, at least in small doses!
01:27:19 <tswett> @tell Bike Is it true that you are System Eight?
01:27:35 <tswett> Carl_Miller is my fault, by the way.
01:28:57 <shachaf> Bike is still around for /msg, but I'm not sure lambdabot messages will get very far.
01:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that perl isn't context sensitive, if backreferences work that way.
01:30:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'll have to design a somewhat context-sensitive dialect of EBNF to describe my language xD
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01:36:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: context-sensitive can do backreferences. but perl parsing is TC.
01:37:32 <oerjan> it could have been sane instead hth
01:38:06 <oerjan> context-sensitive is basically equivalent to "can be parsed with linear memory"
01:39:36 <shachaf> Aw, linear memory isn't linear in the sense that you can only move things around in memory, rather than delete or duplicate?
01:40:16 <oerjan> shachaf: well no but that may very well also be equivalent in this case
01:42:18 <shachaf> oerjan: not quite sure how this sort of linear memory would work, though i'd be interested in finding out twh
01:46:44 <oerjan> as long as the whole machine isn't reversible, you can simulate an ordinary memory by doubling the memory and using 01 and 10 to encode bits
01:47:34 <oerjan> hm wasn't there some kind of RAM or the like that made sure to balance off and on bits internally
01:47:47 <oerjan> for electronics reasons
02:00:27 <oerjan> ooh i'm not the only person to have started out programming by doing BASIC by hand http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3431.html
02:06:51 <hppavilion[1]> Here's what I have so far for Unilang: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/UniLang
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02:28:40 <\oren\> AAAAAA 凝 <- how the heck am i supposed to draw that?
02:29:19 <shachaf> \oren\: http://www.visualmandarin.com/tools/chinese-stroke-order/8657 hth
02:30:13 <HackEgo> Thanks, shatchaf. Thatchaf.
02:31:29 <shachaf> at least the previous one hilighted me
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02:35:07 <oerjan> i think it used to work even worse
02:35:50 <oerjan> that's standard behavior when you have no vowels hth
02:38:38 <\oren\> apparently א isn't a vowel
02:39:34 <\oren\> oh wait we had a discussion about that, where א actually wasn't
02:43:44 <zzo38> I thought Hebrew alphabets do not include vowels?
02:44:54 <pikhq_> zzo38: They have a system of vowel marking, but it's only in common use on the Torah.
02:46:04 <pikhq_> That's the context I know of.
02:46:19 <pikhq_> But I'm not from Israel, or even Jewish, so whaddo I know? :)
02:47:08 <shachaf> well, children's books will have vowel marks, for instance. and in some contexts unfamiliar words and so on
02:47:15 <shachaf> and some letters do serve as vowels some of the time
02:47:28 <pikhq_> Ah. So broadly similar to furigana in Japanese.
02:48:49 <shachaf> That might be a good comparison. I'm not sure which contexts furigana is used in, though.
02:49:39 <coppro> For teaching, for works aimed at children/new learners, and for obscure kanji
02:49:59 <shachaf> https://katiewr.wordpress.com/2010/07/30/the-joy-of-reading-without-vowels/ makes that comparison.
02:51:27 <coppro> I recall reading of some language where all the inflections are done by changing the vowels. Can't remember what it is though
02:51:30 <pikhq_> It's also used in certain genres to provide a novel reading for some kanji.
02:51:48 <pikhq_> Most commonly something along the lines of putting kanji that explain a term in Japanese, with an English reading.
02:52:51 <shachaf> Or some other Semitic language.
02:53:33 <coppro> also not really related
02:53:38 <coppro> but russian pluralization is bizarre
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02:55:18 <coppro> after a numeral, the noun is singular if the number ends in one (including 21, 31, etc.), *genitive* singular if it ends in 2, 3, or 4, or genitive plural if it ends in 11, 12, 13, 14, or isn't covered by the other ones
02:55:33 <coppro> some nouns also do this irregularly
02:56:17 <shachaf> So the first and second cases don't cover things that end in 11, 12, 13, 14?
03:15:59 <hppavilion[1]> So how about a programming language where the entire program is a single, massive multi-typed binary-operator-only expression?
03:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> Somewhere in the realm where "imperative" and "declarative" aren't even defined (because the expression is evaluated outwards, but it's really just a declared expression)
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03:20:49 <coppro> apparently my browser has a tengwar script (conscript unicode registry, not proposed standard) font installed
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03:25:53 <coppro> people and language make no sens
03:26:33 <coppro> for instance, if someone asks you whether you know about something, the more emphatically you say no, the more interested you are taken to be
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03:37:07 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps unary operators would work instead of functions
03:54:03 <zzo38> I have seen kanji with an English reading once in one manga book
04:00:32 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: you could argue that any language is that
04:00:40 <coppro> just take the AST and make it binary
04:06:52 <Sgeo> shachaf, I just learned that Tarsiers are real. I feel dumb.
04:08:00 <shachaf> Sgeo: Usually they don't shoot lasers, though.
04:09:08 <shachaf> Sgeo: How about a quick spot of the Prismata?
04:09:28 <Sgeo> shachaf, one day when I don't totally suck at Prismata
04:09:50 <shachaf> I'm not great at it either. I usually lose to the AI these days.
04:10:09 <shachaf> Anyway if you don't play you're not likely to improve.
04:10:21 <Sgeo> I should at least do the campaign though
04:10:21 <shachaf> i,i http://slbkbs.org/kj-volunteers.txt
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04:25:30 <tswett> Tarsiers are real, eh?
04:27:26 <shachaf> tswett: do you also play prismata?
04:29:10 <tswett> My Prismata username is Wg.
04:29:33 <tswett> Or, at least, it was last I checked.
04:30:32 <hppavilion[1]> Ugh. I'm talking to an idiot who I told I was going to make a social network centred around gaming and we could discuss terms with him, then he ended up deciding to make his own. Using Xenforo. I should never of told him about that idea.
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04:37:08 <oerjan> ah a learning experience
04:37:22 <oerjan> what kind, remains to be seen.
04:41:20 <zzo38> I had the idea of the Backtracking INTERCAL variant where the choicepoint stack is a register that can study and can be ignored, reinstated, stashed, retrieved, enslaved, etc and can also be used with NEXT and COME FROM commands.
04:42:29 <shachaf> tswett: we should play a spot
04:42:47 <tswett> Maybe this upcoming weekend.
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05:13:23 <kallisti> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRpepYYUAAIkV07.jpg
05:13:27 <kallisti> let us discuss the implications of this
05:20:14 <oerjan> kallisti: a clear case of fibonaccitis
05:29:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Markup Λanguage]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44797&oldid=44784 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed some formatting, added "the"
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05:31:37 <kallisti> surely it's no coincidence that the fibonacci spiral and tiling touch edges of objects in the image. This has far reaching implications about the universe and astrology.
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05:34:09 <\oren\> only if the image was selected at random
05:35:22 <\oren\> if you took 1000 images and looked for one that fit the spiral best, then you could produce many crazy coincedences
05:43:23 <zzo38> I think there is no important implication of such a thing.
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05:49:19 <kallisti> honeys bee are actually higher dimensional beings
05:49:27 <kallisti> that communicate through entanglement and quantum coherence
05:49:53 <kallisti> they are not disappear they are simply shifting into dimensions out of our plane of existence.
05:50:24 <zzo38> I don't think so, that doesn't make much sense
05:53:14 <zzo38> However, some things are not known about higher physical dimensions (such as which mathematical models of higher dimensions match the physical model), so it isn't really known. Still, what you specify doesn't seem very meanful or sensible.
05:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone know of a TC model of computation that doesn't have an esolang yet?
05:59:52 <zzo38> Sorry, I don't know
06:08:24 <kallisti> maybe Post's model of computation?
06:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> kallisti: I'm going for more declarative things, like Semi-Thue Grammars (the things that drive Thue)
06:22:26 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose that a language need not be TC to be useful...
06:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> And every Formal Grammar can be converted to a push-down automaton fairly easily...
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07:04:18 <kallisti> I don't have a lot of time for esolang design, but one idea I've taken interest in and would like to explore further is languages that essentially act as different models of computation on the same source input
07:04:33 <kallisti> with a set of rules that determines when context switches from one language to another.
07:05:37 <kallisti> I'd like to make the context switching rules as non-uniform as possible, with each language having its own entering/exiting semantics.
07:08:27 <kallisti> so the idea I have floating around in my head right now currently has 3 different languages, but will likely have several more. as well as a mediator that determines what context the program starts in, and how the program terminates.
07:09:27 <kallisti> one is a simple 2D language that switches to another language context when it encounters specific symbols, and otherwise has some basic instructions for moving around.
07:09:48 <kallisti> another language takes the format of haikus, somewhat like haifu
07:10:14 <kallisti> though I think instead of terminating when you lose a balance of Yin Yang you instead terminate if you stay too balanced for too many steps.
07:12:04 <kallisti> first letter of each line determines the instruction, then the inputs for the instructions are derived from the properties of the "words", like evenness of the lengths of the words and number of vowels vs consonants etc
07:13:23 <kallisti> no syllable knowledge it's just word-based. lines of 3 words, 5 words, 3 words
07:13:57 <kallisti> so far as long as everything determines their own termination rules it becomes easy to maintain consistency
07:14:21 <kallisti> but I'm interested in throwing in languages that instead of specifying only how they terminate also specify when they take over execution.
07:15:16 <kallisti> also the idea is to make each of the languages non-turing complete
07:15:39 <kallisti> but to see if it's possible to emulate a turing machine through manipulation of the conditional context switching
07:25:52 <kallisti> oh man and then another language could be entirely nothing but exception handling and BASIC-like instructions with no conditionals/looping
07:26:35 <kallisti> that you fall into whenever another language throws an "error", with the starting location of execution being based on which language threw the error
07:26:55 <kallisti> with a massive UML diagram of like 20 different useless exceptions in a hierarchy
07:27:38 <kallisti> or maybe it's like, the spatially closest exception handling block
07:27:58 <kallisti> since everything is vaguely 2 dimensional
07:28:19 <kallisti> the haiku language for exmaple remembers the column it started on, and all subsequent lines have to be indented to that level
07:28:32 <kallisti> so it maintains a block-like layout
07:31:42 <kallisti> things get weird as you add on these cross-language semantics
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07:37:42 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
07:39:21 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's new
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07:51:59 <hppavilion[1]> I just found out mtv does fandom awards. I am not pleased.
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08:59:02 <b_jonas> Today is the 12th anniversary of death of Ken Iverson.
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09:12:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: hi. I had a crazy idea about a M:tG card last night. you might have seen it in the channel logs.
09:13:01 <Taneb> Hmm, tonight's magic night
09:13:39 <Taneb> At my university, it is
09:13:47 <b_jonas> but I don't have a good deck built
09:13:48 <Taneb> It's also computer science paper reading group night
09:13:57 <Taneb> b_jonas: me neither, I generally borrow one
09:14:05 <Taneb> I'm trying to never spend actual money on magic
09:14:31 <b_jonas> what better to spend money on than the hobbies that make me happy?
09:14:56 <Taneb> b_jonas: I can do it for essentially free, with some constraints
09:15:18 <b_jonas> I only had to pay a few cents on the mountaintop boatmaker once, and I can look at it any time and smile at it.
09:15:33 <b_jonas> And lots of other nice cards.
09:17:08 <Taneb> Lecturer just said "Who else can't spell so they went into mathematics" after slowly writing complementary on the board
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10:08:04 <izabera> https://github.com/kanaka/mal
10:08:15 <izabera> what do you guys think about it?
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10:15:03 <izabera> (i think most of you already know it)
10:16:48 <Taneb> izabera: is that just a lisp implemented in 40 languages?
10:17:53 <izabera> well yes but it's more of a learning path
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11:31:03 <lambdabot> CYUL 191100Z 23006KT 15SM FEW240 M04/M07 A3041 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP298
11:31:22 <boily> M04. fungot that, I'm outta here.
11:31:22 <fungot> boily: 100 for x=1 to 10) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13
11:31:44 <boily> fungot: for x = -4°C to fungot knows what.
11:31:44 <fungot> boily: it sets up a sprite is a negative edge sensitive input which can occur in areas that are beside the program again and hit return or shift+return, and passing arguments and results to and read like ordinary memory locations used to set the indirect address
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11:32:20 <fizzie> fungot: That all seems so complicated. Isn't there a point-and-click tool to do this?
11:32:20 <fungot> fizzie: register 25 ( 19) is located higher in memory.
11:46:57 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
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12:33:31 <Taneb> I'm not sure that http://esolangs.org/wiki/%3F%3F%3F is categorized correctly
12:33:37 <Taneb> It's not quite brainfuck-equivalent
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12:33:53 <Taneb> The loop semantics are different
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14:00:44 <b_jonas> /* Is this code valid C++? Gcc claims it's not, clang claims it is. */ union s { int x; const float y; } t;
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14:11:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Treehugger]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44798&oldid=43112 * B jonas * (+35)
14:12:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[V]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44799&oldid=35262 * B jonas * (+35)
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14:27:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44800&oldid=44754 * 134.61.130.31 * (+546) /* IF-snippet wrong? */ new section
14:28:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44801&oldid=44800 * 134.61.130.31 * (+0) /* IF-snippet wrong? */
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15:15:26 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/nKRXmcud
15:15:49 <Lyka> that is the most recent Hello World program
15:17:35 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002F%20Commands.pdf
15:17:46 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200002F%20Prefixes.pdf
15:18:20 <Lyka> let me know if anyone cares
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16:09:13 <HackEgo> olist 1009: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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16:30:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44802&oldid=44793 * Catb0t * (+33)
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16:47:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44803&oldid=44802 * Catb0t * (+259)
16:48:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EGSHEL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44804&oldid=44803 * Catb0t * (+30) /* Syntax & Grammar */
16:50:04 <b_jonas> this one might be interesting to typography geeks like some of you http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-10-18.2326.html#d.2015-10-18.2326
16:50:13 <b_jonas> it's certainly thought-provoking to me at least
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18:56:46 <b_jonas> ais523: is this declaration (at the top level) valid C++? union s { int x; const float y; } t;
18:57:03 <ais523> b_jonas: it's definitely valid C, unsure about C++ though
18:57:13 <ais523> I asked about a very similar union in C a while back
18:57:13 <b_jonas> I keep running into crazy language features that seem to depend on the compiler.
18:57:34 <ais523> it was unclear whether it was permissible to write to the non-const value and then read the const value or not, though
18:57:39 <b_jonas> For this one, it seems gcc thinks it's an error in C++ and clang thinks it's fine, at least in some conditions.
18:57:49 <ais523> might be similar in C++, it could be that the union's legal but you can never legally read from y
18:58:15 <b_jonas> ais523: what? why couldn't you read from y if you can create this union?
18:58:34 <shachaf> Can you create it with a value in y?
18:59:01 <ais523> b_jonas: because you're not supposed to read from elements other than the one you most recently assigned
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18:59:15 <ais523> shachaf: actually, yes, and then y would be readable until such time as you changed x
18:59:15 <b_jonas> Gcc complains about it because y is a const member but you don't give an initializer for it, and there's no user-defined constructor to initialize it. That rule makes sense for structs, but not much for a union.
18:59:51 <ais523> b_jonas: is it possible to multi-inherit a union from two different classes in C++?
19:00:05 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know. I don't think you can inherit from a union at all.
19:00:09 <shachaf> How would you create it with a value in y?
19:00:40 <ais523> shachaf: union s sy {.y = 5.23};
19:00:49 <ais523> not sure if that syntax is legal in C++, but it's legal in C
19:01:46 <b_jonas> ais523: union s { char x[4]; const float y; } t; still can't be constructed according to gcc, and it doesn't have the problem you mention about not being able to read y
19:01:57 <b_jonas> ais523: so this is a different problem that I have
19:02:06 <ais523> IIRC the only 100% legal way to do type punning is via memcpy
19:02:28 <b_jonas> I mean, memcpy is recommended
19:02:36 <b_jonas> but memcpy is also defined as copying unsigned chars
19:02:51 <ais523> gcc mentions somewhere that as an extension, it supports type-punning via unions in cases where it's obvious what the programmer meant, IIRC
19:03:07 <b_jonas> these rules are ugly and complicated
19:03:16 <shachaf> ais523: Ah, union s sy = ...;
19:03:16 <b_jonas> I know people can't agree about what they mean
19:03:57 <b_jonas> ais523: but if this is never supposed to work with a union, then maybe that's why you can't have an uninitialized const member in a union
19:04:04 <b_jonas> ais523: so maybe the two problems are connected
19:04:10 <shachaf> ais523: Can you write union s sy = {.y = 5.23}; union s sz = {.y = 6.23}; sy = sz; ?
19:04:30 <b_jonas> ais523: I admit I don't understand how union construction works in C++, nor much of the aliasing rules
19:05:11 <shachaf> It compiles in this version of clang, at least.
19:05:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: in C, probably. and in C++ too, you can do something similar by adding either a default initializer, or a user-defined constructor to the union.
19:10:45 <b_jonas> ais523: I wrote an implementation of unaligned integer load/store with unions, to which schmorp asked why I didn't implement it with malloc instead. I'll have to test both the union solution and the malloc solution because I want to see whether the compilers can optimize them sanely, but I haven't done it yet because it comes out to an ugly combination of 256 cases where I'll have to manually inspect the assembly output, so I'll probably take some shortc
19:11:17 <b_jonas> The actual problem why I need this is a bit complicated and involves a bit more ugliness than just unaligned integer load/store sadly.
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20:08:26 <shachaf> b_jonas: Do you want to be on olist?
20:08:36 <shachaf> 10:14 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, quite the oots
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20:10:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: what does the olist do exactly?
20:10:30 <ais523> b_jonas: I read it already, and the olist pings people who are interested in OOTS; it is only meant to be used when a new comic is released
20:10:35 <olsner> b_jonas: it creates a new oots comic, I think
20:10:38 <ais523> if you are on the olist, then you will be included in the ping
20:10:50 <ais523> I'm interested in oots but not in the olist
20:10:57 <shachaf> Don't abuse the power, please.
20:10:58 <b_jonas> ok, that seems safe enough, I'll try to be on the olist
20:11:09 <ais523> (apart from a few failed attempts to invoke it in the past)
20:11:14 <shachaf> `` echo b_jonas >> bin/olist
20:11:42 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
20:11:50 <HackEgo> bin/rainbow \ bin/rainwords \ bin/randomanonlog \ bin/randquote \ bin/rawpy \ bin/raw-url \ bin/rec \ bin/relcome \ bin/reload \ bin/repeat \ bin/resume \ bin/rèsumè \ bin/rng \ bin/rnooodl \ bin/roll \ bin/rot0 \ bin/rot13 \ bin/rot256 \ bin/rot26 \ bin/rum \ bin/run \ bin/runc \ bin/runcpp \ bin/rwelcome
20:12:03 <ais523> `` cat bin/olist | rot13
20:12:05 <HackEgo> rpub -a "$(onfranzr "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; gnvy -a+2 "$0" | knetf; rkvg \ funpuns \ brewna \ Ftrb \ SverSyl \ obvyl \ abeggv \ o_wbanf
20:12:15 <ais523> (the rot13 is to avoid pinging people, apart from possibly shachaf)
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20:14:51 <b_jonas> great. now Sunset can spend the entire movie trying to figure out why that strange recurring phenomenon in the last panel of OoTS 1009 sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't. and the fan readers will probably figure it out much easier.
20:15:14 <ais523> b_jonas: there are debates about it on the forum already (and were even before the strip came out)
20:15:31 <b_jonas> I mean, even I was wondering about it
20:16:32 <b_jonas> and about how Magicbane swallows curses and if maybe that's what's protected Roy from falling unconscious from the Harm that's supposed to have almost killed him
20:17:01 <shachaf> 10:33 <shachaf> I'm not quite sure I see the connection to 0963.
20:17:01 <shachaf> 10:33 <shachaf> Maybe that means I'm a vampire.
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20:17:25 <b_jonas> but it doesn't seem likely, because there's no visual indication for that, besides that the dwarf just HAPPENS TO touch the sword a lot of times when he makes his touch drain attack
20:18:14 <shachaf> Why was the Harm supposed to have almost killed him?
20:18:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: it drains so much HP that people on the forum figured he MUST be at 1 HP after Harm, and he got drained twice after that, which would bring him to -9 HP
20:19:23 <b_jonas> shachaf: two touch drains conveniently take away exactly 10 HP, besides problems that are less urgent right now
20:19:50 <shachaf> Maybe it's just not following the rules that closely?
20:19:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: Harm is a very powerful spell if someone with a high spell level casts it in dnd3.5 apparently
20:20:28 <ais523> Harm does have a damage cap, though
20:20:36 <ais523> in addition to not being able to hurt people below 1
20:20:55 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but people figured it still deals too much damage, and Roy can't possibly have enough HP to not go to 1
20:20:55 <fizzie> Let's not get into the union-based type punning, it's an unending source of arguments.
20:20:58 <ais523> but people thought it had taken him to 1 because a) it caps at 1, and b) he looked very injured afterwards, so it was reasonable to conclude that the cap had been hit
20:21:13 <ais523> fizzie: union-based type punning, too controversial for #esoteric? :-D
20:21:23 <shachaf> I don't know how many HP to expect people to have.
20:21:35 <fizzie> There's a (non-normative) footnote since C99 that makes it clear the committee's intention is to allow it, but there are huge arguments on whether they actually succeeded in doing that, and a good case for saying they didn't.
20:21:35 <shachaf> Or what level to expect people to be.
20:21:43 <mauris> `` echo "sed 's/\(.\)/\1\x0f/g'" > bin/noping && chmod +x bin/noping
20:22:00 <mauris> `` echo mauris | noping # hopefully?
20:22:06 <b_jonas> And then people figured that there's a feat that could let Roy still be conscious at -9, but even in that case he'd be slowed down and couldn't take all the actions he seems to take. Because these are crazy DND rules people.
20:22:10 <ais523> shachaf: there's a thread on the forums in which people are trying to work this out
20:22:15 <mauris> that didn't work at all. ;-;
20:22:15 <ais523> `` echo ais523 | noping
20:22:24 <ais523> but seems to be inconsistent
20:22:24 <mauris> for me, at least. maybe my client is too smart
20:22:35 <shachaf> `` echo shachaf | noping | xxd
20:22:36 <HackEgo> 0000000: 730f 680f 610f 630f 680f 610f 660f 0a s.h.a.c.h.a.f..
20:22:40 <ais523> what does \x0f do in IRC?
20:22:53 <fizzie> Footnote 95: "If the member used to read the contents of a union object is not the same as the member last used to store a value in the object, the appropriate part of the object representation of the value is reinterpreted as an object representation in the new type as described in 6.2.6 (a process sometimes called "type punning"). This might be a trap representation."
20:22:58 <shachaf> You could do it culprits-style.
20:23:02 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
20:23:13 <mauris> reset to default colors, ais523
20:23:25 <b_jonas> ais523: reset formatting I think
20:23:37 <b_jonas> not only colors, but also resets bold
20:25:13 <mauris> ais523: oh hey, you were briefly mentioned in my "automata & computability" class today :)
20:25:35 <ais523> mauris: in which capacity? did it involve Turing machines with 2 states and 3 colors? :-)
20:25:37 <mauris> the (2,3)-TM and your proof came up as a little "wow" fact
20:25:41 <gamemanj> maybe try every invisible char in the book, then repeat them again just to reset the bold/italics/etc...
20:26:26 <fizzie> Didn't we have a nopingy thing that only added something between the first and second characters (and failed on someone's less picky highlight configuration)? Maybe I imagined that.
20:26:52 <shachaf> fizzie: Yes, printed above.
20:27:29 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/culprits | grep summary: | grep x0F
20:27:31 <HackEgo> summary: <Jafet> ` echo -E \'hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk \'\\\'\'{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}\'\\\'\' | sed "s/.$/\\x0F&/" | xargs\' > bin/culprits && chmod +x bin/culprits \ summary: <FireFly> ` sed -ri \'s,sed "[^"]*",sed "s/.$/\\\\x0F\\&/",\' bin/culprits \ summary: <FireFly> ` sed -i \'s/&[^/]*/\\&\\\\x0F/\' bin
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20:28:12 <fizzie> Although it seems to have been at the end, not at the start.
20:28:26 <b_jonas> there's also the nopingy thing that replaces aeiou with some similar non-ascii characters, but fails to noping nicks without vowels
20:28:31 <shachaf> fizzie: I have hilight on /chaf\b/
20:28:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, and I have highlight on jonas
20:28:50 <b_jonas> plus also like four other words
20:28:51 <HackEgo> 09Welcome 02to 06the 13international 04hub 07for 08esoteric 09programming 02language 06design 13and 04deployment! 07For 08more 09information, 02check 06out
20:29:20 <b_jonas> hmm no I DON'T have a highlight on jonas
20:29:32 <b_jonas> so b<funny character>_jonas wouldn't ping me
20:29:36 <fizzie> For more information, check out this branch.
20:29:44 <b_jonas> but I have nine other strings I highlight
20:30:03 <b_jonas> most of them don't matter, mind you, because nobody would ever say them
20:30:10 <b_jonas> they're just there for completeness
20:31:29 <b_jonas> I think it's probably worse for people who use lots of alternate nicks. I don't, yet.
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20:38:46 <b_jonas> (well, he can't grow ears. that wouldn't work in this art style.)
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20:42:33 <b_jonas> what? no, it can't _heal_ Roy from the energy it drains from an undead creature. that would have the wrong polarty of energy.
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20:46:56 <b_jonas> also, in OotS 1009, panel 2 shows Roy remove the stopper of the bottle with his teeth. that definitely disproves the crazy idea that Roy is secretly a low-level wizard who has sworn he'd never use magic again after his brother's death. a true wizard would remove the stopper from the bottle using just one hand. you can't just forget habits like that.
20:47:25 <shachaf> Do you get to be a wizard at age 10?
20:48:23 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:48:58 <b_jonas> that whole theory didn't make sense anyway
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21:07:13 <fizzie> Yesterday, from the bus, I saw a building that somehow seemed very zeerusty.
21:07:24 <fizzie> https://goo.gl/maps/UakPjyKpQb82 this one
21:07:32 <fizzie> The photo doesn't really do it justice.
21:10:02 -!- Madison_ has joined.
21:11:17 <HackEgo> Madison_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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21:15:48 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:16:40 <int-e> . o O ( `learn `welcome is a weapon of mass destruction. )
21:17:34 <int-e> we lose so many people to `welcome ;)
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22:49:30 <shachaf> oerjan: what is the connection to 0963 twh
22:51:16 <oerjan> basically, that the demon doesn't understand hum^Wdwarf nature and so didn't see that roy would _know_ the real durkon wouldn't have been thinking that
22:52:37 <shachaf> what does that have to do with connecting two memories
22:53:25 <oerjan> that the demon didn't understand why the memories would be connected, for the same reason
22:53:48 <oerjan> or perhaps more subtly, the demon doesn't understand the concept of a moral lesson
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23:15:51 <tswett> It's been a while since we had autowelcome turned on.
23:15:55 <tswett> That was pretty hilarious.
23:16:05 <tswett> Whelp. With no further ado...
23:16:08 -!- ais523 has quit.
23:16:44 <tswett> Yes, yes. Most wonderful.
23:22:03 <tswett> In fact, I think we'd better get rid of autowelcome entirely.
23:22:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: autowelcome: not found
23:22:38 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:23:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/autowelcome
23:23:43 <tswett> That's really just the feedback part. autowelcome continues working even if you delete the executable that tells you whether it's turned on or not.
23:37:20 <oerjan> `url bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:37:21 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/dontaskdonttelllist
23:38:00 <shachaf> `` dontaskdonttelllist | xxd
23:38:01 <HackEgo> 0000000: 646f 6e74 6173 6b64 6f6e 7474 656c 6c6c dontaskdonttelll \ 0000010: 6973 743a 2071 e280 8b75 e280 8b69 e280 ist: q...u...i.. \ 0000020: 8b6e e280 8b74 e280 8b6f e280 8b70 e280 .n...t...o...p.. \ 0000030: 8b69 e280 8b61 e280 8b20 63e2 808b 6fe2 .i...a... c...o. \ 0000040: 808b 70e2 808b 70e2 808b 72e2 808b 6fe2 ..p...p...r...o. \ 00000
23:39:07 <oerjan> stupid IE has changed in such a way that i'm sometimes _unable_ to choose utf-8 as the right encoding for a page, like that one :(
23:39:45 <shachaf> lambdabot: can you correct my speling
23:39:59 <shachaf> what! you're going to let me misspel words?
23:42:09 <HackEgo> [U+0026 AMPERSAND] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+002F SOLIDUS]
23:42:22 <shachaf> solidus? do they even know us?
23:43:11 <oerjan> `mkx bin/noping//sed 's/\(..\)/\1/g'
23:43:23 <tswett> It's not obvious to me what dontaskdonttelllist does.
23:43:30 <tswett> There's only one thing to do.
23:43:36 <tswett> `dontaskdonttelllist tswett
23:43:36 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist tswett: quintopia coppro myname
23:43:41 <oerjan> `` echo test | bin/noping | xxd
23:43:41 <HackEgo> 0000000: 7465 e280 8b73 74e2 808b 0a te...st....
23:43:54 <oerjan> `` echo test | bin/noping
23:44:28 * tswett sits and waits patiently.
23:45:54 <oerjan> `mkx bin/noping//print_args_or_input "$@" | sed 's/\(..\)/\1/g'
23:47:20 -!- ais523 has joined.
23:47:25 <oerjan> i made it every second character, anyone with a 2-character nick has only themselves to blame
23:48:44 <shachaf> what's wrong with the culprits approach
23:50:34 <oerjan> shachaf: that certain people's highlighting ignores ^O
23:50:45 <oerjan> including mauris_ iiuc
23:51:04 <shachaf> i think it was weechat that was the issue
23:51:11 <ais523> `` echo ais523 | noping
23:51:21 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris.
23:51:32 <shachaf> what if we added a zero-width non-breaking space
23:51:47 <oerjan> mauris: and that works?
23:52:02 <shachaf> Or a non-breaking space or something else?
23:52:11 <HackEgo> 0000000: 6d61 e280 8b75 72e2 808b 6973 e280 8b0a ma...ur...is....
23:52:19 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a non-breaking space, same as HackEgo uses for prefix
23:52:20 <shachaf> It just really messes up my terminal.
23:52:33 <oerjan> oh right, there had to be a reason you hated it
23:52:34 <mauris> http://puu.sh/kQsHs/fb36a60fdd.png
23:52:40 <mauris> that's what it looks like fyi.
23:53:04 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
23:53:05 <oerjan> shachaf: do HackEgo's responses that use it automatically also mess it up?
23:53:19 <shachaf> This channel does tend to mess up my terminal more than most.
23:53:22 <HackEgo> 870) <kmc> i can only hope that the 55 year old nuclear reactor 2 blocks away from my house is too old to have SCADA
23:53:37 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
23:53:37 <shachaf> (But also it only happens on this computer and not on my home computer.)
23:53:50 <HackEgo> <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork" \ <Quas_NaArt> Hmmm... My fingers and tongue seem to be as quick as ever, but my lips have definitely weakened... <Quas_NaArt> More practice is in order. \ <AnMaster> that's where I got it <AnMaster> rocket launch facility gift shop \ <Warrigal> GKennethR: he should be
23:53:56 <oerjan> shachaf: does that mess it up
23:54:48 <shachaf> I can fix the latter messup by resizing, though.
23:56:18 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
23:57:49 <oerjan> of course there's also the drawback that a ZWNS takes 3 bytes
23:58:32 <oerjan> but i think that may be hard to avoid with anything better than ^O
23:59:57 <ais523> shachaf: have you had a chance to read my thesis yet, btw?
00:00:10 <shachaf> the thing surrounding what's-his-name in http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0996.html is the thing from http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0969.html
00:00:15 <shachaf> ais523: Haven't read it yet.
00:00:53 <shachaf> Will hopefully get to it soon.
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00:13:53 <izabera> http://research.microsoft.com/~cohen/WangFinal.pdf
00:13:53 <\oren\> votes are being counted!
00:15:07 <\oren\> if anyone actually cares who is in charge of canada, you can watch the election results http://www.cbc.ca/includes/federalelection/dashboard/
00:21:08 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
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00:31:27 <ais523> \oren\: I care about the election itself but need someone to explain it to me, because I'm not following Canadian politics closely
00:31:47 <ais523> it's more something I check in on time to time
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00:34:30 <\oren\> Well, for starters, the colours:
00:34:55 <\oren\> Red = Liberals, essentially centre-left
00:35:43 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit).
00:36:56 <\oren\> Orange = NDP = New Democratic Party , hard left
00:37:26 <\oren\> Green = Green Party, superextreme left environmentalists
00:37:53 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized. Kleene algebra operates on strings.
00:38:01 <\oren\> Green probably will get maybe one seat, so they aren't important
00:38:25 * ais523 wonders why environmental parties tend to be left
00:38:52 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: It is a bit ironic, being that they like to /conserve/
00:39:07 <hppavilion[1]> Or was that the joke ais523 was already trying to make
00:40:44 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: oerjan: wasn't meant to be a joke
00:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> Now that you mention it, that is a little interesting; not that there are ones in the left, but that they're /all/ in the left.
00:41:30 <\oren\> so the main story tonight is that after 10 years of the conservatives under Harper, people want to get rid of him, badly
00:43:49 <ais523> is he still leader of the conservatives, or have they nominated someone else in an attempt to avoid getting voted out?
00:44:03 <\oren\> no he's still the candidate
00:44:06 <ais523> in other news, apparently make accepts $($(x)) in a makefile
00:44:34 <ais523> acting much the same way as PHP or Perl
00:45:38 <ais523> anyway, Canadian politics (sorry for interrupting the offtopic conversation with an ontopic one)
00:46:10 <ais523> normally we discuss canadian politics in ##nomic because it's ontopic there
00:46:51 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I haven't read it, but it should be noted that "algorithm" is actually eponymous, it's a corruption of someone's name
00:46:59 <ais523> not sure about "algebra" but it might have a similar etymology
00:47:19 <ais523> in which case the book's name is trying to make a joke but the joke fails because the etymology really does work like that
00:47:54 <ais523> but you also use it with names and the like
00:49:04 <hppavilion[1]> But "A Gebra Named Al" was a book they made me read in 6th grade on algebra. It was a nice book, if I remember correctly.
00:49:41 <zgrep> What's a gebra, then?
00:49:59 <ais523> I find that "the" is a word that many non-native-English speakers have trouble with because it works differently in different languages, either slightly (e.g. in French you use "le"/"la" with country names), or heavily (in Chinese it doesn't exist at all, AFAIK)
00:50:07 <ais523> it doesn't exist in Latin either
00:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'd kind of like to see a book on interesting little pockets of mathematics, which actually gives you in-depth information on it, that is all tied together with a plot. I think To Mock a Mockingbird is supposed to be like that...
00:51:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: most of Smullyan's books are like that
00:51:09 <ais523> at least the ones that aren't massively long textbooks
00:51:31 <ais523> Forever Undecided is one of my favourites, although some of them are more appropriate to esolanging (like The Lady or the Tiger?)
00:51:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Raymond Merrill Smullyan (/ˈsmʌli.ən/; born May 25, 1919)[1] is an American mathematician, concert pianist, logician, Taoist philosopher, and magician."
00:52:57 <ais523> prepositions are even worse, they don't seem to be consistent between languages at all, and yet you can't just omit them because they're needed to understand the meaning of the sentence
00:54:20 <shachaf> Hebrew has a definite article but no indefinite article.
00:54:28 <shachaf> Is there any language with the reverse situation?
00:54:41 <shachaf> Newspaper Headlinese has no articles at all.
00:57:56 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized. If kleene algebra has multiplication, then it has exponentation (I think). Therefor it has roots.
00:58:35 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: exponentiation is by an integer
00:58:50 <ais523> you can define the inverse of that but it's a partial function
00:59:00 <ais523> (ababab)^1/3 = ab, but (ababa)^1/3 isn't defined
01:00:39 <hppavilion[1]> How does exponentiation where the power is a fraction of a non-one numerator work I wonder?
01:01:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make a mathematics website that talks about the parts of mathematics /not/ covered on other mathematics websites.
01:01:33 <fizzie> (ababab)^2/3 = (ababab)^(2*1/3) = ((ababab)^1/3)^2 = (ab)^2 = abab would make sense.
01:02:32 <fizzie> And x^(2/n) is root(x^2, n), because of the above.
01:04:17 <fizzie> Or root(x, n)^2, since multiplication is commutative.
01:06:08 <hppavilion[1]> "In quatenions, multiplication doesn't support the commutative property. In octonions, it doesn't even support the associative property. In sedenions, it isn't even fucking reflexive"
01:06:36 <ais523> oh, as in 1×1 isn't necessarily 1?
01:06:47 <ais523> you wouldn't normally expect multiplication to be reflexive
01:07:43 <ais523> according to Wikipedia, the property octonions have and sedenions don't is x(xy)=(xx)y
01:08:15 <hppavilion[1]> Isn't that the associative property? Wait, or is that a special case?
01:08:23 <ais523> it's a special case of associativity
01:08:29 <ais523> octonions have that, but not the general case
01:09:24 <shachaf> Multiplication without associativity? Sounds like scow.
01:10:36 <shachaf> That reminds me of something in Pippi Longstocking, or at least in the Hebrew version.
01:10:52 <fizzie> There's a Hebrew version of it?
01:10:58 <shachaf> She says that X without Y is like X' without Y', or X'' without Y''
01:11:09 <shachaf> Maybe she says chocolate ice cream without chocolate, or something like that.
01:11:09 <fizzie> Fun fact: the given name is adjusted to "Peppi" in Finnish.
01:11:22 <shachaf> fizzie: In Hebrew in the version I read she was called Gilgi.
01:11:29 <shachaf> And there's a movie where she's called Bilbi.
01:12:09 <shachaf> A direct transliteration wouldn't go over well.
01:12:14 <fizzie> There's a related Finnish proverb, that goes X without Y "on kuin talo ilman aitan polulla astelevaa emäntää."
01:12:40 <fizzie> (It's based on a quote out of Aleksis Kivi's Seitsemän veljestä.)
01:13:15 <fizzie> Google Translate isn't doing so well on that.
01:13:31 <ais523> can you translate it manually?
01:13:35 <ais523> (into English, that is)
01:13:53 <fizzie> Yes, but not in a way that would retain the content very well.
01:15:16 <fizzie> Very approximately, "like a house without a wife* walking on the path to the barn", where especially emäntä -> wife doesn't really carry over the connotations.
01:16:11 <ais523> is the implication that the house is lonely and that's why it's seeking the barn's company?
01:17:22 <fizzie> The supposed implication is that the man (sorry for all this cisgender bias) living in the house will be unhappy. And I guess walking to/from the barn is the standard location for the wife to be.
01:18:10 <fizzie> Google Translate, for me, says "-- like a house without a path to the barn with a mistress", which uses an even worse word (at least to my understanding of English), and manages to make it sound like the path to the barn is the important part.
01:19:36 <oerjan> ais523: algebra is not eponymous, but it's from the book that the guy who algorithm is named after wrote hth
01:19:45 <fizzie> I'm sure there's a translation of Seitsemän veljestä that gets it more right.
01:20:02 <ais523> oerjan: the same person discovered both algorithms and algebra?
01:20:05 <fizzie> "Seitsemän veljestä has been translated twice into English, first by Alex. Matson,[1] later by Richard Impola --"
01:20:17 <fizzie> "Note that Matson wrote his first name with the period ("Alex.") to indicate that it was a short form."
01:20:25 <ais523> or did he/she discover algebra, became famous for it, and then algorithms were named after him/her due to being famous?
01:20:54 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm pretty sure algorithms were invented by al gore hth
01:22:08 <zgrep> fizzie: Sounds like a fun way to make music...
01:23:54 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: No, that was the World Wide Web. Most people think he invented the internet, but he only invented the WWW.
01:25:17 <\oren\> 8 minutes till the polls close, and the Blue Jays are winning 9-2
01:25:28 <ais523> \oren\: are the two connected?
01:25:32 <oerjan> <shachaf> Is there any language with the reverse situation? <-- i distinctly recall last we asked this, i concluded farsi and/or turkish were examples
01:25:51 <ais523> also, is there any news on who's winning yet? or is it like the UK, where news about elections is suppressed while polling is open?
01:26:11 <ais523> (news outlets are only allowed to report very basic facts about the elections while polling is open, such as the fact that they exist)
01:26:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]> How does exponentiation where the power is a fraction of a non-one numerator work I wonder?
01:27:02 <\oren\> The Liberal party has swept the Atlantic provinces
01:27:06 <oerjan> stupid mouse slipped a line
01:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, they haven't even taught us that sqrt(x) = x**(1/2)
01:27:26 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my comment was going to be "i have a strong sense of deja vu today"
01:27:38 <ais523> I assume they haven't taught you what sqrt(-1) is yet either
01:27:53 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: She just mentioned imaginary numbers for the first time today. I think.
01:27:54 <oerjan> well someone did, and who else would it be
01:28:05 <ais523> although x**(1/2) is a convenient way to write sqrt(x) on IRC (although, mostly when generalized)
01:28:16 <zgrep> ais523: That doesn't seem that convinient...
01:28:28 <ais523> x**(1/3), possibly with variant notations for exponentials, is by far the easiest way to write cube root
01:28:37 <ais523> because the cube root symbol requires a bunch of Unicode
01:28:37 <zgrep> That, however, I agree with.
01:29:07 <ais523> I didn't realise there was a specific cube root symbol
01:29:10 <zgrep> That looks like a cabaret function.
01:29:42 <ais523> although I guess a³√b would be ambiguous if there weren't
01:29:56 <shachaf> Did you read _The Number Devil_?
01:30:03 <shachaf> That was a good book I read when I was young.
01:30:35 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember the books I read when I was very young
01:30:50 <hppavilion[1]> I've seen people talk about {}=0, and I assume that that that's like church numerals; a symbolic form of representation that is just treating {} as 0, not literal equality. Now I want to find the wiki article that talks about this, but I don't know what to look up xD
01:30:51 <\oren\> I read the number devil
01:31:00 <ais523> there was a sequence of books, I think called "Puddle Lane", which had very simple vocabulary and in which nothing much really happened
01:31:09 <ais523> pretty suitable for learning to read on
01:31:48 <\oren\> the polls in central canada are closed now
01:34:05 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: look up "ZFC", specifically the axiom of infinity (which is normally considered to define the natural numbers)
01:34:05 <oerjan> <ais523> oerjan: the same person discovered both algorithms and algebra? <-- well he got algorithms named after him, pretty sure euclid had one much earlier, and probably the egyptians and babylonians too
01:34:37 <ais523> isn't it possible to come up with an algorithm despite not knowing what they are?
01:35:01 <ais523> \oren\: I take it the closings/openings are based on timezones?
01:35:52 <hppavilion[1]> How about a funge where the code can modify the topology of funge-space?
01:36:16 <fizzie> fungot: How do you feel about that?
01:36:16 <fungot> fizzie: using this pointer and the pet 64, cris berneburg for proof reading.
01:36:40 <fizzie> fungot: He proofread the whole book using just one pointer and a PET 64? Impressive.
01:36:41 <fungot> fizzie: when writing the file as the sprite using blanks and solid circles shift+q in data port a has the important lesson here is as follows:
01:37:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The IPMD Funge-98 fingerprint is (in a very limited way) like that.
01:37:58 <fizzie> It can restrict an IP to run in 1-, 2- or 3-dimensional mode.
01:42:33 <oerjan> incidentally, al-khwarizmi means something like "the guy from Khwarezm". as i recall reading, Khwarezm was a relatively prosperous region in central asia until they made the mistake of gravely angering a certain guy called Genghis Khan...
01:44:03 <ais523> fizzie: can it increase the number of dimensions beyond that of the original program?
01:44:09 <ais523> e.g. can it make v not reflect in Unefunge?
01:44:29 <ais523> (presumably it'd enter an infinite loop unless you used the now two- or three-dimensional p to put another command in its path)
01:45:11 <\oren\> CBC is projecting a liberal government based on, I assume, what they pulled out of their
01:45:26 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Not topological enough. I want curves, goddammit.
01:45:38 <\oren\> i mean they have basically no data yet
01:46:13 <oerjan> (protip: don't kill the emissaries of great conquerors. unless your byname is dracula.)
01:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> Of all the esolang families, I think the fungoids are the ones with the greatest probability of general acceptance
01:47:10 <ais523> \oren\: in the last UK election, the BBC predicted that the Conservatives would be the largest party by a large margin, right after the polls closed
01:47:31 <ais523> nobody really believed them, but eventually it turned out that they'd /under/estimated and the Conservatives actually got a majority
01:47:55 <ais523> then all the pollsters were depressed that they hadn't figured it out, and all the political pundits were trying to figure out why and how
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01:49:06 <fizzie> ais523: As far as I can tell, yes.
01:50:07 <ais523> in that case it should really let programs have arbitrarily many dimensions (so long as the number of dimensions is some finite number that fits in a fungecell)
01:50:38 <ais523> or perhaps even have +1 and -1 dimension options, to make Funge-98 TC in a particularly unusual way
01:51:03 * ais523 tries to work out if zero-dimensional funge is even potentially useful
01:51:16 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: commands that increase/decrease the number of dimensions
01:51:44 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Nofunge-98 isn't useful, but a 0D fung/oid/ could be
01:51:54 <fizzie> ais523: It's one of the RC fingerprints, I don't think their fungespace implementation is generic enough to go over 3.
01:52:00 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Formula was my attempt to make a zero-dimensional language
01:52:17 <ais523> that reminds me, "is two-dimensional Formula TC" is an outstanding question
01:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> For example, if every unicode character was assigned a script value that could be useful
01:52:45 <ais523> although come to think of it, you can probably compile http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge into it (which would make it TC)
01:52:50 <hppavilion[1]> (λ: Evaluate a lambda calculus expression entered into a snazzy GUI)
01:53:48 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well I guess if the language only allows for one-command programs, but one of those commands is X from CHIQRSX9+
01:53:56 <ais523> (which is defined as "makes the language Turing-complete")
01:56:44 <ais523> wait, no, I'm being stupid
01:56:51 <ais523> Nopfunge allows wire crossing, Formula doesn't
01:56:56 <ais523> that makes a huge difference in this case
01:57:38 <hppavilion[1]> I think part of J-Why could be generalized to become actually /useful/ in teaching programmers
01:57:51 <hppavilion[1]> (Existing programmers, not new programmers. God no for new programmers)
01:59:51 <ais523> Nopfunge is well-named; it basically is a derivative of Formula-2 which adds NOP, and that makes it TC
02:00:04 <ais523> (unless Formula-2 is itself TC, which seems unlikely but possible)
02:01:24 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know enough about topology to decide how a Topologically-Inclined Fungoid would work xD
02:05:52 <\oren\> wow burger queen have 5 ridings!
02:09:51 <\oren\> god damn it chrstia freeland is winning
02:17:25 <\oren\> wow the whole damn country is red
02:18:56 <\oren\> but the PC's are still taking Alberta and Saskachewan
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02:20:04 <ais523> a centre-left party doing well is not surprising, if the previous government is right/centre-right but the PM is unpopular
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02:22:46 <\oren\> Yeah. In terms of election promises, this means we'll have legal marijuana
02:24:03 <ais523> that sounds like a pretty clever/simple way to increase turnout
02:24:25 <ais523> normally I don't care about election promises much because the typical track record for actually keeping them is low
02:24:43 <ais523> the previous UK government I was apprehensive about, because one of their main election promises, I really dislked
02:24:49 <ais523> (the whole Big Society thing)
02:26:58 <ais523> there was also the whole tuition fees thing, which I didn't care about nearly as much as some other people, but which in retrospect may have been the Conservatives intentionally making the Lib Dems look bad in order to improve their position at the next election
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03:58:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Infinite Vector]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44805&oldid=44775 * Ais523 * (+300) reply
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04:11:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnamed]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44806 * Vihan * (+1866) Created Unnamed
04:11:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unnamed]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44807&oldid=44806 * Vihan * (+10)
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04:29:23 <ais523> haha, unnamed has two different commands; the only syntactic difference between them is that one of them has two parameters the same, and the other has the two parameters different; and there isn't a semantic difference, the same-parameter command does the same thing that the different-parameter would if given two equal parameters
04:29:39 <ais523> it's probably just a mistake / not thinking things through, but I like it on a conceptual level
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04:54:29 <\oren\> Ok, majority govt. Now let's not pull an Obama and try for consensus... Ram the marijuana down the conservatives' throats!
04:56:56 <ais523> \oren\: did you vote Liberal by any chance?
04:57:08 <ais523> and was that the only reason, or were there others?
04:57:31 <\oren\> I was hoping for a Lib-NDP coalition
04:58:24 <pikhq_> Gay marijuana healthcare ahoy!
04:59:25 <kallisti> maybe when we stop spending literally all of our money on military
04:59:27 <\oren\> But I do support legalizing marijuana, even though I've never tried it
04:59:30 <kallisti> we can finally legalize gay weed
05:00:02 <pikhq_> On a more serious note, yes, I do support legalizing weed.
05:00:07 <pikhq_> I have even voted in favor of it.
05:00:07 <kallisti> and have good infrastructure and public services and affordable higher education
05:00:29 <pikhq_> Don't really care to imbibe, but that's just me.
05:00:50 <\oren\> yah that too, but legal marijuana is a election promise that doesn't cost any money
05:01:01 <\oren\> in fact it reduces costs
05:01:05 <kallisti> eventually our budging will be so skewed toward military that congress just shuts down and we become an independent military group.
05:03:46 <\oren\> well, we canadians kind of rely on you being scary, seeing as we can't really afford a real military
05:03:49 <kallisti> defending nothing, invading everything. freedom and democracy for everyone
05:04:50 <kallisti> my favorite thing is the people on Twitter who threatened to move to Canada over the supreme court decision on same-sex marriage.
05:05:15 <kallisti> they obviously do not know anything about Canada.
05:05:25 <ais523> did Canada have same-sex marriage already, by any chance?
05:05:40 <pikhq_> kallisti: Actually yes.
05:05:51 <pikhq_> Mexico's Supreme Court ruled on it a week before the US.
05:06:10 <\oren\> canada has had gay marriage for more than a decade
05:06:13 <kallisti> and several European nations have had it for over a decade now
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05:17:39 <\oren\> Also. they should make this his official picture https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CRuvAh-UsAAZZXd.png:large
05:21:37 <coppro> \oren\: you're canadian?
05:22:03 <coppro> I was sitting in a polling station waiting for the last voters to go by when I started to hear the results Oo
05:22:56 <ais523> coppro: you were an election helper?
05:24:31 <pikhq_> https://helloworld.letsencrypt.org/ \o/
05:28:38 <coppro> ais523: no, a scrutineer
05:28:50 <coppro> (deputy returning office)
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06:56:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44808&oldid=44272 * Keymaker * (+329) Added a mention of translation's halting and A register.
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08:30:59 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, but that wasn't the non-obvious thing to me in OotS #996. the part that was non-obvious to me is that that creature template gives him the ability to turn to that animal for free, not only to turn to the animal from #932.
08:35:20 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> Hebrew has a definite article but no indefinite article. Is there any language with the reverse situation?" -- haven't we had this discussion a month ago already? I pointed to http://wals.info/chapter/37 which listed some languages, but the comments on wals pointed out that some of that data was wrong.
08:36:39 <b_jonas> oh, algebra! you were talking about a lot of things this night
08:38:43 <b_jonas> "<fizzie> The supposed implication is that the man (sorry for all this cisgender bias) living in the house will be unhappy." -- hah, I'm actually reading Kalevala these days, in Rácz István's translation, and it's probably the most gender biased epic ever.
08:39:26 <b_jonas> "<shachaf> oerjan: i'm pretty sure algorithms were invented by al gore hth" -- oh, good one, we should add that to a wisdom
08:40:00 <ais523> `le/rn al gore/al gore invented the algorithm
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08:43:43 <b_jonas> `learn algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
08:43:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
08:47:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44809&oldid=44666 * 196.21.124.114 * (+327) /* Game */
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09:01:16 <kallisti> god I forgot how backwards the Python community is
09:14:08 <b_jonas> How come there's no Battlegrowth instant that costs {G/W} yet (that is, a reversed polarity Scar). Isn't growing a creature supposed to be slightly cheaper than shrinking a creature?
09:16:08 <kallisti> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/890128/why-python-lambdas-are-useful just read this
09:16:18 <kallisti> all of the comments and responses
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10:02:24 <Jafet> Python merely lowers the bar.
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10:08:05 <Jafet> `learn Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore.
10:08:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore.
10:09:13 <b_jonas> Jafet: hey, did you just overwrite mine?
10:09:26 <b_jonas> Jafet: at least keep the bit about God's Algorithm
10:09:39 <HackEgo> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore.
10:10:04 <b_jonas> hmm, should I `revert war on this?
10:10:33 <Jafet> Is god's algorithm actually written down anywhere though?
10:10:42 <Jafet> I hear it's p. big
10:11:29 <b_jonas> Jafet: you can't write it down, but it's very easy (on any modern computer) to find the fastest solution for any one starting position
10:11:47 <b_jonas> Jafet: so dynamically calculating it is easier than writing down everything
10:12:25 <Jafet> Ah, there is actually an algorithm.
10:12:39 <b_jonas> Jafet: the difficult thing the researchers did (with the help of some large number of computers provided by Google) is to actually compute this for all starting positions to verify that it never takes more than 20 steps,
10:12:50 <b_jonas> whcih needed a lot of clever optimizations of course
10:13:39 <b_jonas> But really, if you only need the algorithm for one starting position, a typical desktop pc can compute it for you in a minute or a second, I don't know which.
10:14:37 <b_jonas> Basically, there are about 2**64 positions, which is too large to search all, but its square root is 2**32 so it's easy to do a two-way search of 10 moves from each side.
10:16:58 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
10:17:32 <fizzie> Still haven't fixed that. Maybe some day.
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10:26:32 <HackEgo> algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
10:26:38 <b_jonas> it might be better to combine those two thoguh
10:27:20 <b_jonas> `learn algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
10:27:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
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10:43:36 <boily> coppro: CHELLOPPRO!
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10:44:23 <Taneb> boily, that just sounds like someone really good at the cello
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10:50:10 <boily> Tanelle. maybe he is?
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10:52:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoticon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44810&oldid=33710 * 110.92.124.219 * (-4) /* Emoticon basics */
10:55:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoticon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44811&oldid=44810 * 110.92.124.219 * (+51) /* Introduction */
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11:00:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emoticon]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44812&oldid=44811 * 110.92.124.219 * (-102) /* Emoticon basics */
11:01:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Exomuse * New user account
11:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric programming language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44813&oldid=37181 * Exomuse * (+29)
11:13:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Exomuse]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44814 * Exomuse * (+256) Created page with "+[--------->++<]>+.++++.+[->+++<]>+.++++..----.+++++.-------.-[--->+<]>--.-[--->++<]>-.+++++.-[->+++++<]>-.---[->++++<]>.------------.---.--[--->+<]>-.---[----->++<]>.--------..."
11:21:24 <lambdabot> CYUL 201100Z 23019KT 15SM OVC067 12/06 A2992 RMK AC8 SLP132
11:23:11 <lambdabot> EGLL 201050Z AUTO 32005KT 290V010 9999 FEW019 13/08 Q1028 NOSIG
11:23:19 <lambdabot> EFHK 201050Z 11009KT 9999 BKN021 05/01 Q1025 NOSIG
11:26:05 <fizzie> I'm a bit ashamed of not biking to work here, because the weather would permit that for a much longer time of the year (yes, yes, you can technically do it all year round, but I'm not crazy); it's just that doing it out there all mixed up in the traffic seems so intimidating, after having gotten used to my previous "6 km of bike trails only with no car traffic" commute.
11:28:26 <fizzie> They should build one of those cycling superhighways they have, except one from my front door to the office.
11:29:09 <boily> fizziello. biking with cars around you is an interesting experience that offers plenty of learning opportunities.
11:29:34 <fizzie> Yes, such as what's it like being crushed by a vehicle?
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11:31:53 <boily> being crushed by a moving vehicle, smashing into a vehicle (did that once; I got something in my eye, couldn't see anything and stamped myself on a parked car), smashing into another biker, smashing into a pedestrian...
11:32:19 <fizzie> I'm not sure you're really selling the idea here.
11:32:44 <boily> getting a ticket by a cop (got that too!)
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12:51:51 <Taneb> I have half of the key to my bike lock in my pocket
12:53:02 <Taneb> Unlikely, I believe it's stuck in the lock
12:53:06 <Taneb> Are you my bike lock
12:53:52 <b_jonas> @tell ais523 http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/feature/battle-zendikar-update-bulletin%E2%80%94comprehensive-rules-changes-2015-10-09 at 601.2 tells that the update should close a recently added hole about an exploit where you could see hidden information by proposing an illegal spell and rolling it back; but I don't see the fix in the 2015-09-26 comprehensive rules. What gives?
12:54:18 <int-e> `learn precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:54:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'precious?': precious? That doesn't ring a bell. ¯\(°_o)/¯
12:54:44 <int-e> `` mv wisdom/precious\? wisdom/precious
12:56:14 <b_jonas> Question. In windows CMD, does CALL always work for a non-batch file executable? I want to run an executable by name without extension from the path, and it may or may not be a batch file.
12:57:40 <fizzie> https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb490873.aspx "call [[Drive:][Path] FileName -- [ Drive : ][ Path ] FileName : Specifies the location and name of the batch program you want to call. The FileName parameter must have a .bat or .cmd extension."
12:58:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah yeah, but that's not what it seems like when I test
12:58:45 <fizzie> Then you must be relying on undocumented stuff.
12:59:13 <b_jonas> come on, I'm using CMD, where even half of the quoting is undocumented and inconsistent
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13:10:41 <noncom> did anyone try to implement https://esolangs.org/wiki/Hyper_Set_Language ?
13:30:57 <fizzie> 216 pages in Category:Unimplemented, 594 in Category:Implemented. That's not actually too terrible.
13:31:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: are all languages categorized in one of those or Category:Unimplementable ?
13:31:57 <fizzie> Category:Languages has 923 pages.
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13:33:00 <fizzie> Oh, I didn't notice your reference to Category:Unimplementable. That's not a category we have.
13:33:05 <fizzie> We do have Category:Uncomputable.
13:33:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: also, some of that statistics might be skewed by the stereotypical hundreds of brainfuck equivalents that are trivially implemented with a one-liner like sed 'y/<>-+[]/g;s/left/</g;s/right/>/g;s/down/-/g;s/up/+/g;s/begin/[/g;s/end/]/g' | brainfuck
13:33:24 <b_jonas> we don't have an unimplementable category?
13:33:32 <b_jonas> we have tons of unimplementable languages
13:34:00 <b_jonas> unimplementable for all kinds of different reasons, each language inventing a new one
13:34:29 <b_jonas> some are boring, like, so underspecced that nobody understands what the text on the page means and the original author vanished
13:34:44 <b_jonas> but there are lots of languages that are unimplementable for interesting reasons
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13:35:19 <b_jonas> there are also lots that are implementable in theory, but there's not much point implementing them, because the purpose is more a theoretical exercise than something to actually run programs in
13:36:28 <nortti> I could've sworn there was a such category?
13:36:55 <nortti> oh, I was thinking of http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Uncomputable
13:38:32 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Schrodilang is the only language that's in both Category:Implemented and Category:Unimplemented, and that's just a joke.
13:38:38 <b_jonas> there's http://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Unusable_for_programming but that's different, eg. HQ9+ is unusable for programming but certainly implementable
13:38:44 <nortti> is it possible to do a search like "in Category:Languages not-in Category:Unimplemented not-in Category:Implemented"?
13:39:03 <fizzie> nortti: There's a MultiCategorySearch extension, but we don't have it installed.
13:39:32 <Taneb> nortti: in classical logic that ought to be emoty
13:39:34 <noncom> actually i think that languages like hyper set or binary lambda are not really esoteric, but dsl
13:39:48 <b_jonas> nortti: you could do it client-side by downloading the whole list of contents of each category with the api
13:39:50 <noncom> from a pov, any dsl can be seen as esoteric
13:39:54 <b_jonas> they're not big categories
13:40:31 <fizzie> b_jonas: I located Schrodilang just by copy-pasting the page lists of both categories in a file + sort | uniq -c | sort -nr.
13:41:52 <b_jonas> oh, there's also funny combinations like BANCStar which is implemented but unimplementible
13:42:01 <fizzie> The category intersection can be a useful tool for answering "what was that 2D language with a stack?" kind of questions. Or at least would be if the categorization was all that complete.
13:42:27 <b_jonas> and there could be something like
13:42:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 2104: not found
13:42:40 <nortti> < b_jonas> oh, there's also funny combinations like BANCStar which is implemented but unimplementible ← why is it unimplementable?
13:42:44 <b_jonas> languages that are unimplementible now but will be implementible later
13:42:48 <nortti> lack of proper documentation?
13:42:51 <b_jonas> nortti: we don't have a complete enough spec, yes
13:43:02 <b_jonas> too much is missing to make a convincing implementation
13:43:53 <b_jonas> but an implementation supposedly exists in a floppy disk somewhere, and someone has it and would give it to us, but he disappered in circumstances that aren't suspicious at all
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13:50:40 <fizzie> Oh, the top-level https://esolangs.org/wiki/1L page is also Implemented | Unimplemented.
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13:56:51 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/nvc3vdvh
13:59:18 <Lyka> HYDRA0004/99BEER is a program that outputs "## bottles of beer on the wall.\015\n" 99 times, where ## is a number from 99 to 01
14:00:32 <Lyka> let me know if anyone here cares
14:03:25 <Taneb> Remember that guy from the washington post
14:05:01 <Lyka> there's a person here from the washington post?
14:05:28 <Taneb> There was a couple of years ago
14:06:08 <Lyka> Tell said person to NOT use anything i type
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14:12:46 <b_jonas> Lyka: wait, you told us where you buried the body? I must have missed that
14:13:54 <Lyka> backyard of the house i grew up in. of course, that's the body of a pet guinea pig...
14:14:11 <Taneb> I wonder what happened to y old dog's body
14:14:38 <Lyka> creamated. like all the other dead pets the vets get
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14:15:22 <Taneb> She got hit by a train, or so I'm told
14:16:00 <Lyka> Canine Mafia got her
14:21:53 <Taneb> These lectures are fun when only three people try to answer questions
14:23:57 <Taneb> (representing chomsky grammars as graph grammars)
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19:36:35 <hppavilion[1]> I have no clue how to implement Control Flow in Unilang
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19:47:15 <shachaf> b_jonas: no revert war twh
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19:58:51 <ais523> one of the more reliable indicators of a spambot: it has a full name in the From: address, and says "hi, I'm «name»" or equivalent in the message body, and the two don't match
20:00:02 <b_jonas> ais523: why is that an indicator of spam? if I think you already know me from somewhere on the internet as a screen name, I might write that in an email, and I don't change the full name in the From.
20:00:05 <ais523> b_jonas: last I checked the comp rules hadn't been updated on the website yet
20:00:23 <ais523> b_jonas: well neither name looked like a screen name
20:00:26 <b_jonas> ais523: it is updated. it has the date in the text and the filename
20:00:56 <b_jonas> ais523: the editing process takes a while after the bulletin, but it's done by now
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22:02:06 <HackEgo> al gore invented the algorithm
22:02:26 <oerjan> `le/rn al gore/Al Gore invented the algorithm.
22:03:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> [...] but the comments on wals pointed out that some of that data was wrong. <-- and i checked further on farsi and turkish and found that it was true for at least one of them.
22:04:56 <oerjan> cannot quite recall if it was both. i think farsi was most conclusive
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22:05:57 <HackEgo> algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
22:06:35 <oerjan> are you implying Al Gore isn't medieval
22:07:13 <oerjan> hm indeed, those two parts seem dissonant
22:07:38 <shachaf> 10:09 <b_jonas> Jafet: hey, did you just overwrite mine?
22:07:38 <shachaf> 10:09 <b_jonas> Jafet: at least keep the bit about God's Algorithm
22:08:26 <shachaf> imo it doesn't work at all
22:09:40 <oerjan> `` learn "Algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster." # Combining the two jokes doesn't really work. Also, proofreading.
22:09:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'algorithm': Algorithms were invented by Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
22:13:10 <oerjan> <b_jonas> [...] hah, I'm actually reading Kalevala these days, in Rácz István's translation, and it's probably the most gender biased epic ever. <-- proof that gender neutral pronouns don't help hth
22:15:22 <oerjan> indeed, Jafet managed to use correct capitalization and punctuation
22:16:06 <int-e> oerjan: surely the "popular sayings" part, alluding to aphorisms, could be kept?
22:16:41 <oerjan> the problem is, how does a google computer cluster invent a popular saying
22:16:49 <int-e> it's not less wrong than the second part anyway...
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22:17:02 <int-e> they have language models, what's the problem...
22:17:10 <oerjan> int-e: the problem isn't that they're wrong, the problem is that they're inconsistent with each other
22:17:15 <int-e> but we had God's algorithm long before we had proof of God's number.
22:17:22 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:17:24 <fizzie> oerjan: Deep neural networks and time machines. Not that I'm saying anything.
22:17:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: algorithm: not found
22:17:30 <int-e> so as I said, it's wrong regardless
22:17:34 <HackEgo> algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster
22:17:55 <oerjan> oh what's God's algorithm then
22:18:04 <shachaf> i don't get the second part at all
22:18:14 <int-e> Well, I interpreted it as the optimal algorithm for solving Rubik's cube.
22:18:27 <int-e> http://www.cube20.org/
22:18:37 <int-e> "With about 35 CPU-years of idle computer time donated by Google"
22:20:25 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/.\(.*\)/A&./' wisdom/algorithm
22:20:26 -!- Sgeo__ has joined.
22:20:33 <HackEgo> Aalgorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
22:20:49 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/a//' wisdom/algorithm
22:20:55 <HackEgo> Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
22:21:10 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
22:21:25 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
22:21:59 <int-e> . o O ( Are there any Ørigami? )
22:22:20 <int-e> (to my mind, origami is only one step removed from papers)
22:22:27 -!- Sgeo_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:22:55 <oerjan> none that still survive, i think. although ørjan did once find a book on origami in the school library.
22:23:21 -!- mauris_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:24:59 * oerjan vaguely recalls you could make origami water balloons
22:25:41 <oerjan> sadly, i was much to well-behaved to make proper use of this knowledge.
22:33:57 <ais523> oerjan: are you a different person from ørjan in much the same way that I'm a different person from ais523_?
22:35:29 <oerjan> that's a very hypothetical question, as irc doesn't allow ø in nicks hth
22:36:11 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
22:36:15 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
22:36:30 <shachaf> I don't think ais523_ publishes paper.
22:37:22 <ais523> I'm trying to remember if it's me or ais523_ who published the papers
22:37:25 <oerjan> shachaf: so you're saying it's the other way around?
22:37:43 <ais523> I guess they were mostly submitted by my supervisor, who tends to use work computers (underscored) and personal laptops (not underscored) interchageably
22:37:48 <ais523> so I'm not really sure who they were submitted by
22:37:59 <fizzie> ais523: It's probably ais523_, because it looks like a bit of paper is sticking out there at the end.
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22:41:37 <boily> Good evening, Shachaf.
22:41:58 <boily> (is your first name Shachaf?)
22:43:53 <shachaf> boily: now you gotta write a higgledy-piggledy with that word hth
22:45:10 <int-e> not sure what pigs have to do with ornithology
22:45:25 <boily> int-ello. pigs fly. they are birds.
22:45:39 <int-e> thanks, that's an excellent point.
22:46:00 <shachaf> oh, you can make it slightly risqué by talking about ornithology and melittology
22:46:36 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
22:46:49 <HackEgo> drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
22:47:02 <int-e> ah, plural handling... right
22:47:48 <oerjan> shachaf: does "Kiki" mean anything twh
22:48:24 <HackEgo> Drone sex has never been observed in the wild; in fact it's rare to see drones in their natural habitat because they are extremely shy. Experiments with drones in captivity have only resulted in broken drones, and a rotor stuck in the ceiling. We are still looking for a biological explanation for the ever increasing drone population.
22:48:51 <int-e> bona fide melittology
22:49:10 <int-e> (where does one learn such words...)
22:49:15 <shachaf> oerjan: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiki_(gathering) hth
22:49:26 <int-e> unless you read a lexicon...
22:50:19 <int-e> lexicon's a false friend there.
22:50:39 <oerjan> int-e: in norwegian too
22:51:28 <boily> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Flock_of_Seagulls
22:52:48 <oerjan> <int-e> (where does one learn such words...) <-- i think that one came up on the iwc forum, and may or may not have transfered here from there
22:53:13 <shachaf> oerjan: i was going to ask if johan means anything but i suppose it does
22:53:16 * oerjan spent plenty of time in his childhood reading the encyclopedia
22:53:23 <shachaf> if you're willing to follow enough convoluted links
22:53:55 <oerjan> shachaf: it is from hebrew hth
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23:16:58 <oerjan> boily: based on the logs, are you still biking in traffic, and if so, WHY?
23:18:45 * oerjan had his parent-encouraged attempt to start biking in trondheim quickly crushed by the bike getting damaged by the train trip.
23:20:42 * oerjan is _very_ good at never getting things fixed
23:21:59 <int-e> . o O ( We put the "pro" into procrastination. )
23:23:14 <oerjan> int-e: my dad tried giving me a self-help book for that
23:23:48 <ais523> but you couldn't be bothered to read it?
23:24:21 <int-e> oerjan: is it still on your to-read pile of books?
23:24:49 <oerjan> no, i'm pretty sure that book was in a pile i threw out
23:24:58 <fizzie> My bike's... uh, come one, what's the word. The thing you steer it with. The handlebars! Those. So those are still at a 90-degree angle (as in, the bar is parallel to the direction of travel, not the normal perpendicular orientation) from being compactly packed in the moving shipment, even though that was back in February or March or something.
23:25:49 <int-e> oh no, when did http://www.structuredprocrastination.com/ get a "modern" look? it used to be possible to just start reading that page without having to scroll down...
23:26:19 <oerjan> int-e: i guess it happened some time when he had something more important to do hth
23:26:36 <fizzie> int-e: I think the image should scroll, but at a slower rate compared to the text; the parallax thing is even more modern than the fixed image.
23:26:41 <int-e> and the photograph of the author at the beach is gone :/
23:26:59 * oerjan assumes so from vaguely remembering last it was mentioned
23:27:08 <fizzie> The top bar is doing a sufficiently modern thing with all this autohiding and fading stuff, at least.
23:27:13 <oerjan> structured destruction
23:27:52 <int-e> fizzie: ok, it doesn't do that without javascript
23:29:33 <boily> oerjan: no, the tethercat principle doesn't apply to my bike rides.
23:29:47 <boily> besides, it's way too cold outside. it was M04 yesterday morning!
23:30:00 <int-e> fizzie: and please, please tell me that CSS3 doesn't actually allow parrallax scrolling (without javascript)
23:30:43 <fizzie> int-e: As far as I can tell, the intended effect is to (animatedly) hide when you scroll down, and the reverse when you scroll up, plus also apply a fade such that the bar is blue when the top of the screen is fully in the content area, fully transparent when the page is scrolled to the top, and something in-between for the intermediate positions.
23:31:00 <oerjan> boily: my question was meant generally, not for this specific season hth
23:31:52 <boily> oerjan: yes, during summer I bike in traffic. there are even bike jams on some bikelanes.
23:32:09 <fizzie> int-e: In fact, seems that it does, through the "CSS Transforms" module.
23:32:19 <oerjan> tvtropes has got more annoying ads lately...
23:32:25 <fizzie> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-transforms/#perspective and so on.
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23:33:33 <fizzie> There's someone's demo at http://keithclark.co.uk/articles/pure-css-parallax-websites/demo1/
23:35:01 <boily> oerjan: oh, and you have to make do with the construction work, rampant potholes, hipsters, orange cones and burning astral balls of hydrogen.
23:35:23 <shachaf> int-e: whoa whoa whoa, this is great
23:35:42 <shachaf> int-e: that front page has a big useless image, choppy scrolling, everything i could want
23:35:44 <boily> holy fungot that's impressive.
23:35:44 <fungot> boily: multicolor color registers 53287-53294, d027-d02e). this is done by placing a value of the volume register. this bit register.
23:36:00 <boily> fungot: multicolor color?
23:36:00 <fungot> boily: a=64 or 32: poke v+21 and the number ( ai, a2, a3).
23:39:15 <oerjan> boily: i'm not entirely familiar with the last one
23:40:55 <fizzie> boily: Shorthand for "color registers for the multicolor mode", because the two colours of the "monochrome" mode have registers too, I think.
23:41:31 <fizzie> fungot: Where's the palette for the sprites?
23:41:31 <fungot> fizzie: 20 data 5,6,7,8 the
23:41:42 <fungot> fizzie: save ( in our example, run it.
23:42:05 <boily> fungot: I don't parenthesave.
23:42:06 <fungot> boily: note that only the beginning of vic. this means that interrupts from this register is dumped into the y position... these tell the vic-ii chip to the screen, the
23:45:58 <fizzie> Makes one wonder if a really patient person could learn how to program the C64 from this style.
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23:48:21 <fizzie> Perhaps by sampling sufficiently much to reconstruct the ngram frequencies, then trying to manually piece together fragments of the text.
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23:50:38 * oerjan adds *.doubleclick.net to the limited sites list
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00:08:42 <boily> we have an esobell?
00:09:47 <hppavilion[1]> It's a psionically-driven bell that calls out to all denizens of #esoteric. It only calls the subconsious, though.
00:10:16 <ais523> right, it made me check the channel
00:10:30 <ais523> (or perhaps that's just the way that #esoteric's name turns green in my IRC client)
00:11:45 <hppavilion[1]> The green is just programming. The Esobell affects your subconsious; only those who care about what is being said can really perceive it, and even then, "perceive" is a strong word for it.
00:14:07 <kallisti> I felt a strange sensation. It's kind of hard to describe
00:15:34 <kallisti> I'm not sure what would make a field "strange"
00:16:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking for strange fields/rings that I can implement calculators for (similar to that first calculator we've all implemented, that asks for two numbers and an operation then returns the result) that uses something other than just the normal numbers we all deal with regularly
00:16:38 <kallisti> well it's just that a field by definition obeys pretty normal ass laws
00:16:46 <kallisti> so for it to be "strange" it would just have to be related to quirky objects
00:16:49 <kallisti> which isn't all that internet .
00:17:15 <hppavilion[1]> I just want to deal with something other than numbers with a calculator xD
00:17:45 <hppavilion[1]> For example, I could do Kleene algebra, but then I thought "I wonder if there's anything more interesting".
00:18:32 <kallisti> uh... functions over fields are fields
00:19:10 <kallisti> look at the Num instance for (->) defined by lambdabot
00:19:54 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M8463575583549700228385’
00:19:54 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
00:20:30 <kallisti> should be like: (*) f g x = f x * g x
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00:21:29 <HackEgo> ent0nces: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:22:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: does the esobell work on #esoteric /regulars/ only, or on any esolanger?
00:23:40 <lambdabot> (Data.Fixed.Fixed a), (Shrink2 a), Blind a, CReal, Complex a, Double, Expr, Float, Int, Int16, Int32, Int64, Int8, Integer, Interval a, Large a, Natural, Product a, Ratio a, Small a, Sum a, Sym a, Word, Word16, Word32, Word64, Word8
00:24:04 <lambdabot> Source not found. I don't think I can be your friend on Facebook anymore.
00:24:42 <ais523> was the collection of insults in @src to at least make it more interesting when it inevitably fails to find whatever you're looking for?
00:24:42 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:24:47 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
00:24:52 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
00:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Usually it only affects denizens of the channel, but it has been known to trigger avid esolangers who haven't discovered the channel or who have but aren't very active
00:25:11 <lambdabot> instances provides: instances instances-importing
00:25:26 <kallisti> hm, guess you can't find the instances that are defined for a type?
00:25:31 <kallisti> rather than the instances of a class?
00:25:35 -!- variable has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero).
00:25:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't find class `Shrink2'. Try @instances-importing
00:26:16 <kallisti> Shrink2 is probably just some kind of newtype wrapper that has specific instances
00:26:34 <ais523> I didn't realise lambdabot had an unlambda interp
00:26:57 <ais523> @unlambda ```sii``si.a
00:26:57 <lambdabot> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa...
00:27:24 <kallisti> I wonder if anyone's made a Haskell compiler targeting unlambda.
00:28:19 <ais523> I wonder if anyone's made an Unlambda impl that has vaguely efficient integers
00:28:32 <boily> unlambda has integers?
00:28:35 <kallisti> yeah that was my first thought "integers would be annoying"
00:29:09 <ais523> boily: it has church numerals, most vaguely functional languages do
00:29:22 <kallisti> yeah you just use church numerals.
00:29:27 <ais523> @def church2 f x = f f x
00:29:29 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type:
00:29:34 <ais523> @def church2 f x = f (f x)
00:29:42 <ais523> @def church3 f x = f (f (f x))
00:29:54 <ais523> @def dechurch x = (x (+1)) 0
00:29:57 <kallisti> church numerals + bijection between integers and naturals = tada! integers
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00:30:18 <ais523> > dechurch (church2 . church3)
00:30:23 <ais523> > dechurch (church2 .church3)
00:30:27 <ais523> > dechurch (church2 church3)
00:30:39 <ais523> > dechurch (church3 church3 church3)
00:30:55 <ais523> > dechurch (church3 (church3 church3))
00:30:59 <kallisti> is there any effective difference between church numerals and peano arithmetic? they seem more or less to be the same representation
00:31:56 <ais523> they seem different to me
00:32:05 <ais523> peano arithmetic is heavily based around a successor function
00:32:20 <ais523> and the successor function is nontrivial to write in church arithmetic (you can do it but it's much more complex than some others)
00:32:43 <ais523> you convert a church numeral into a peano number by giving it a successor and zero function as arguments
00:33:05 <ais523> so you can think of church numerals as being represented as parameterizations of peano arithmetic
00:33:38 <kallisti> yeah I was just thinking visually they look similar
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00:34:55 <kallisti> they look the same but they use different mathematical representations
00:36:43 <kallisti> if you had a church number and you wanted to convert it to Peano you'd write f S Z, right?
00:37:08 <kallisti> so church numerals are like a fold function for peano numbers.
00:44:14 <kallisti> the Recuderon is similar to unlambda / lambda calculus / system F with a specialized integer constructor
00:50:03 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> What particularly strange fields are there? <-- well i mentioned p-adic fields the other day, and then there are galois fields. the fields of meromorphic functions are also nice...
00:50:34 <oerjan> then there's the field of one element, which manages to be interesting despite not existing.
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00:53:37 <oerjan> <kallisti> uh... functions over fields are fields <-- nope, you get things that you cannot divide on other than (const 0). (the nice thing about the meromorphic functions are that they evade this.)
00:55:22 <oerjan> <kallisti> look at the Num instance for (->) defined by lambdabot <-- i think that was removed
00:55:41 * oerjan is in backscroll, in case it wasn't obvious
01:00:04 <oerjan> <ais523> and the successor function is nontrivial to write in church arithmetic [...] <-- nothing compared to predecessor
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01:03:36 <oerjan> i did write deadfish in unlambda. it's probably not a good idea to square to much in that one.
01:04:37 <oerjan> hm it's possibly you won't even notice until you try an o command (and possibly d)
01:04:56 <kallisti> what does predecessor look like?
01:04:58 <oerjan> or wait, maybe the 256 check makes it strict enough.
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01:14:13 <tswett> So, I think I've come up with two English words that are both extremely common, but when you put one after the other, you get a phrase which is extremely rare. It probably just can't appear in any valid English sentence.
01:14:17 <tswett> Spoiler: the phrase is "the and".
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01:15:31 <kallisti> yeah I agree the and in that phrase probably isn't valid english. :>
01:15:55 <boily> I disagree. the English is valid, and the the and moreso.
01:16:29 <kallisti> why can't it be the the and the and together making it invalid?
01:17:34 <FreeFull> tswett: 'the "and"' might occur sometimes
01:17:50 <tswett> /thə thʌ ənd thi: ænd/
01:17:53 <FreeFull> "and the" is definitely a lot more common
01:17:55 <tswett> FreeFull: it certainly does.
01:18:12 <kallisti> ITC: irresponsible lack of quotation marks usage. BUT IS IT INVALID ENGLISH? (warning: you will be labeled a dirty prescriptivist if you disagree with me)
01:18:31 <shachaf> nothing wrong with not using quotation marks hth
01:18:44 <oerjan> kallisti: you can basically encode \n -> fst (n (\(x,y) -> (y,y+1)) (0,0))
01:18:54 <tswett> I assert that a phrase such as "the the and the and" is obviously not a real usage of the phrase "the and".
01:19:28 <kallisti> it is an imaginary usage of the phrase within the imaginary plane of english phrases.
01:21:56 <tswett> FreeFull: hmm. Yeah, that also seems illegal in all contexts.
01:22:18 <oerjan> presumably, you want a usage in which both the "the" and the "and" are used rather than mentioned.
01:22:22 <boily> the the and of the the of.
01:22:25 <ais523> FreeFull: you can interpret "of" as a proper noun, at a stretch
01:23:07 <ais523> sort-of like TURKEY BOMB, except with an of instead of a TURKEY BOMB
01:23:17 <oerjan> hm this doesn't work in norwegian because the word for "the" is also a pronoun.
01:23:33 <FreeFull> Polish doesn't have a word for "the"
01:24:03 <oerjan> (or several, if you consider number/gender)
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01:25:11 <boily> oerjan: I, you, he, she, the?
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01:27:49 <oerjan> boily: "den/det" ~ it, "de" ~ they
01:28:27 <oerjan> also the "of" doesn't work if you're willing to use slightly archaic grammar
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01:29:04 <oerjan> (you can then have prepositional phrases before the noun)
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01:31:30 <boily> notre fungot, qui êtes aux cieux, que ton baragouinage soit sanctifié, protège-nous de la grammaire norvégienne...
01:31:30 <fungot> boily: the seventh bit set, and their abbreviations. the color ram which is used. the variable(s) in the character, and therefore most advanced. the
01:31:45 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: What did you realise?
01:31:46 <hppavilion[1]> You know how you can't make a proprietary application in Python because then people can crack it?
01:32:20 <hppavilion[1]> Really, you can. Just make sure to bundle the code into an executable ahead of time
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01:32:27 <kallisti> oerjan: oh I see so you pass a tuple to the church numeral. the wikipedia definition was confusing me
01:32:37 <hppavilion[1]> Any proprietay application will be broken someday; it's just a matter of time.
01:33:16 <hppavilion[1]> If you implement it in Python or something, it will be cracked more easily, but that doesn't matter; society has conditioned us not to pirate software like that and the ones who it didn't work on will pirate it anyway.
01:33:33 <kallisti> same with open source applications, we will all fall victim to the heat death of the universe.
01:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> (Of course, that doesn't mean it isn't /slow/, and if the application has trade secrets, then...)
01:34:06 <Sgeo__> Meh, proprietary is a legal thing, ease of access to source is a technical thing
01:35:06 <hppavilion[1]> My point is that you might as well make a major application that you plan on selling in Python if speed isn't a concern.
01:35:16 <kallisti> doesn't the py2exe stuff just bundle the python bytecode interpreter and point it to your compiled scripts?
01:35:22 <kallisti> seems pretty easy to reverse engineer
01:35:36 <oerjan> kallisti: that's probably more efficient somehow, if my brain could grasp it
01:35:41 <pikhq_> Stupid work, injecting virons into me.
01:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> My POINT is that it doesn't matter how easy it is to reverse engineer
01:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> It'll be broken eventually no matter what you do and the pirates are going to pirate it; but most of your buyers think piracy is evil and thus won't
01:38:17 <kallisti> I agree with that. I didn't get that from what you were saying though. sounded like you were saying that bundling an exe was "the solution" to Python being easy to crack.
01:38:22 <hppavilion[1]> Now, you file is still pretty big and it's slow, but if that doesn't matter then you might as well just use python.
01:39:03 <hppavilion[1]> kallisti: Ah, no. You do probably need to make it an exe (else it's too complicated for some people), but otherwise you're fine.
01:39:35 <kallisti> I used to really enjoy Python... when it was the only language I knew... when I was only two years or so into learning how to program... and singing guido's praises like a mindless drone with the other really bad Python programmers that make up the "Pythonic programmer community"
01:42:00 <kallisti> it's an okay language, I guess. it's hard for me to like it now. It's like Ive escaped some kind of secret brainwashing cult
01:42:52 <kallisti> programming languages. scary stuff.
01:43:22 <pikhq_> Python doesn't suck. I think that's its primary strength.
01:43:46 <kallisti> could be worse. I could have drank the Scheme or Ruby kool-aid. I've heard that stuff is pretty potent.
01:45:11 <shachaf> I was fairly about Ruby for a while.
01:46:26 <kallisti> I think at some point in the programming experience you go from being resistant to other methodologies other than your favorite pet idea, to being able to adapt what you've learn from different tools when using others.
01:46:42 <kallisti> at least that's been my experience
01:48:33 <kallisti> I think it goes hand-in-hand with understanding that, what originally seemed like very divergent modes of expressing a computation are actually representing the same underlying ideas.
01:58:49 <hppavilion[1]> Exit the while loop the MOMENT the next atomic operation finishes after the condition stops being "true"
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03:12:30 <kallisti> hppavilion[1]: pretty sure there's something like that in the JS async library
03:14:38 <kallisti> not exactly in the way you described
03:15:38 <kallisti> but most of the iteration functions in async.js allow you to simply break out of the loop by calling the continuation with an error result (or not calling it at all, though I'm not sure you'll get a result at that point)
03:16:05 <kallisti> https://github.com/caolan/async#each
03:16:42 <kallisti> looks like there's async.whilst
03:16:48 <kallisti> Repeatedly call fn, while test returns true. Calls callback when stopped, or an error occurs.
03:16:59 <kallisti> test() - synchronous truth test to perform before each execution of fn
03:17:06 <kallisti> fn(callback) - A function which is called each time test passes. The function is passed a callback(err), which must be called once it has completed with an optional err argument.
03:17:11 <kallisti> callback(err) - A callback which is called after the test fails and repeated execution of fn has stopped.
03:17:54 <kallisti> I used async.js quite a bit when working on an express-based website. it's pretty handy.
03:18:19 <kallisti> async.during is similar but uses an async conditional
03:19:46 <kallisti> async.waterfall is pretty nice, though it's basically a continuation monad. javascript would be so much better with something like do notation.
03:22:08 <oerjan> apparently since 2010 wikipedia has disagreed with our wiki on what "turing tarpit" means https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Turing_tarpit&diff=343527061&oldid=343523576
03:22:13 <kallisti> for all javascript's flaws, and as much as Python "doesn't suck", I can safely say that creating something like async.js in Python would be completely impractical
03:22:25 <kallisti> because of the lack of a multi-line lambda construct in Python
03:22:54 <kallisti> this is the biggest flaw of Python IMO
03:23:05 <ais523> oerjan: verifiability, not truth ;-)
03:23:21 <ais523> (that said, the sources may have been correct at the time, and we may have forcibly redefined the phrase from under them)
03:24:22 <oerjan> well this was spurred by this recent edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Esoteric_programming_language&action=edit&undoafter=681716919&undo=686669920
03:24:31 <kallisti> I think ais523 is right on this one
03:24:45 <oerjan> in other words, someone forced the article about esolangs to use the wp definition
03:24:54 <kallisti> a lot of stuff on wikipedia around that time had something of an "esolang bias"
03:25:05 <kallisti> probably as a result of contributors from this community
03:25:07 <ais523> oh right, the Esolang AfDs
03:25:12 <ais523> it's actually sort-of the other way round
03:25:29 <ais523> Esolang was originally created in order to have somewhere to store all the esolang articles that Wikipedia wouldn't accept
03:26:27 <kallisti> original research lack of sources not notable etc
03:26:49 <kallisti> but I think we're talking about different instances of time
03:26:57 <kallisti> 2010 isn't exactly when the esolang wiki was made was it?
03:27:02 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ais523/esolangafd
03:27:05 <oerjan> the question is, what should that last link be saying
03:27:35 <ais523> it was happening often enough that I created a useful navbox to put on any future mass esolang nominations, so that people could easily find the previous cases
03:27:37 <oerjan> it makes no sense to include turing tarpits in the article if it isn't using our definition
03:28:18 <kallisti> friendly reminder that I originally created this when I was 15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t-give-a-fuckism and it has somehow survived 5 deletion nominations.
03:30:12 <ais523> oerjan: I don't know, WP-turing-tarpits tend to be esolangs too
03:30:26 <kallisti> metaspace wikipedia is pretty much anything-goes though
03:30:32 <kallisti> it's pretty hard to get deleted there
03:30:34 <ais523> given that the implication is still that they're excessively low-level to the point of unusability, just that they don't have golfed specs
03:30:49 <ais523> kallisti: I patrol the weird namespaces sometimes
03:30:58 <ais523> it took me a year and two tries to get a corrupted page in TimedText: deleted
03:31:15 <ais523> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/TimedText:Depeche_mode_pipeline.ogg.en.srt_%282nd_nomination%29
03:31:30 <ais523> one of the more ridiculous page names of pages I've created
03:31:41 <kallisti> I'm not familiar with that namespace
03:32:04 <kallisti> oh, must be new. or, well, newer than when I stopped caring about wikipedia editing.
03:32:15 <kallisti> which was probably around 2008-2009 maybe?
03:33:25 <kallisti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_prophet_wizard_of_the_crayon_cake your user page will never be as cool as mine. B)
03:35:38 <ais523> my userpage used to have a clock written in pure wikimarkup
03:35:46 <ais523> but I blanked it a while back when I retired
03:35:53 <ais523> and now that MediaWiki supports Lua it'd be way less impressive
03:39:13 <kallisti> IIRC the lua runtime has some pretty nice features to restrict IO
03:39:40 <Xe> i use lua a lot because it is easy to embed and doesn't reek of ass
03:40:02 <kallisti> yeah Lua as a language is pretty solid. my primary complaint with Lua is the desert of standard libraries
03:40:14 <oerjan> ais523: however, there are few esolangs that are _not_ wp-turing-tarpits.
03:41:46 <ais523> Funge-98 is an exception here
03:42:45 <kallisti> it's not hard to make a decent dynamically typed language. strong typing, arbitrarily complex anonymous functions, no weird type coercions (see: strong typing), extensible runtime based largely on some kind of hash/table structure.
03:42:50 <kallisti> yet somehow everyone fucks it up
03:45:18 <ais523> I like the typing discipline in which everything is a string and strings that look like ints or floats are optimized internally, but it doesn't work so well for functions
03:45:50 <kallisti> if you go down that road you need to not overload your operators with 5 million different special cased coercion rules
03:46:01 <kallisti> something like perl where you have int-context operators vs string context operators
03:46:15 * oerjan makes some noise https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Esoteric_programming_language&diff=686759139&oldid=651792496
03:47:59 <kallisti> now that GHC has OverloadedLists you can actually make a pretty convincing javascript-like type coercion system in Haskell
03:48:00 <ais523> kallisti: well such a language doesn't need coercion rules
03:48:07 <ais523> it only has one type, thus no coercing
03:48:10 <kallisti> without having to call any conversion functions on syntactic literals
03:48:17 <ais523> (it does, however, need rules for how things like addition work on strings that don't look like ints)
03:48:32 <kallisti> yeah that's really not any different from what I'm saying
03:48:49 <kallisti> you've just decided to say "there aren't types. there's just operators that interpret the data different in different contexts"
03:48:51 <kallisti> which is basically weak typing
03:49:45 <ais523> kallisti: well, there's a huge difference between languages like Javascript, in which 1 !== "1"
03:50:00 <ais523> and Tcl, in which the difference between JS-== and JS-=== isn't even meaningful
03:50:07 <hppavilion[1]> And I still don't understand topology. Anyone have any suggestions?
03:50:13 <ais523> I like Tcl-style languages and dislike JS-style languages
03:50:27 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure no one actually likes javascript weak typing
03:50:53 <hppavilion[1]> Weak typing is evil. Strong typing where you can define conversions is where it's at.
03:51:16 <kallisti> perl manages to have a sensible weak typing convention actually
03:51:26 <kallisti> eq is string equality and == is integer equality
03:51:30 <kallisti> . is concatenation and + is addition
03:51:36 <kallisti> rather than overloading everything into == and +
03:51:40 <ais523> right, Perl is mostly emulating the "everything is a string" model
03:51:50 <ais523> but then it has a few corner cases because it's Perl
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03:51:53 <ais523> and then they added references
03:52:47 <kallisti> I've been enjoying my Lua hacking while working on dota 2 mods actually
03:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should change the front page to Thue or Emmental or something. Then we'd get too many derivatives of a different language instead.
03:53:34 <kallisti> the only problems I have with Lua is lack of good libraries (which I think I mentioned), and lack of a decent module system. only one of those is really a problem with the language, and a sensible module system could easily be added to it (something like require.js or node.js module system for example)
03:54:08 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I think the plan was to change it to Funciton, but nobody's written a blurb for it
03:54:11 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it's already been Emmental
03:54:29 <kallisti> oh yeah lack of assignment-as-expression is pretty annoying ,but not the end of the world
03:54:52 <hppavilion[1]> Right, right. I like assignment-as-expression, even though I've never used it.
03:54:54 <ais523> strangely enough, nobody's nominated Thue yet
03:55:00 <kallisti> most of my code in Lua is literally just getting stuff from tables then checking for nil, then doing stuff with the table
03:55:08 <kallisti> when it would be more sensible to have a built-in construct to do it
03:55:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there's a page to put nominations hth
03:55:33 <ais523> you can only nominate once, though
03:55:38 <oerjan> the only thing we lack is a page for people to suggest blurbs
03:55:45 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Featured_languages/Candidates
03:55:54 <ais523> err, until the language gets accepted
03:55:57 <ais523> we were planning to change it more often
03:55:58 <kallisti> give Lua a decent module system, or give Python multi-line lambdas. and I'd be happy with that.
03:56:03 <ais523> but all the admins are too busy
03:56:18 <Sgeo__> Meh, I think I responded to spam
03:56:49 <Sgeo__> Hopefully the worst that could happen is I made a fool of myself and/or signed up for more spam
03:57:21 <Sgeo__> It was from some gmail address telling me to connect to someone with the same name. I just said "Who is this?", but the reply-to was different
03:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Featured languages/Candidates]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44815 * Hppavilion1 * (+129) Attempted to nominate a language. May have instead turned Amsterdam into smoldering ruins.
03:57:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Featured languages/Candidates]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44816&oldid=44815 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Fixed (?) formatting
03:58:10 <ais523> Thue is a good nom, anyway
03:59:38 <oerjan> at the current rate of progress, heat death hth
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04:00:21 <ais523> you need to persuade one of the admins to write a blurb for a featured article and get it onsite
04:00:30 <ais523> and we're all busy, lazy or both (except possibly fizzie)
04:01:38 <hppavilion[1]> I need to think of a good language for a name I just thought of...
04:02:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44817 * Hppavilion1 * (+108) Reserved Page
04:03:10 <kallisti> one day humans will adapt to a zero entropy environment
04:03:14 <kallisti> and heat death will be irrelevant
04:03:18 <ais523> I'm not sure lahey-lines really work on a klein bottle
04:03:58 <ais523> so I assume it's a -93 derivative? (presumably you just swap both x and y coordinates when wrapping from one side to the other?)
04:07:11 <kallisti> ais523: btw using === as an example of javascripts type system is kind of pointless because it's pretty much the only operator that does explicit strong typing
04:07:37 <ais523> admittedly I can't think of others offhand but it wouldn't surprise me
04:07:49 <ais523> IIRC == isn't even transitive
04:07:59 <kallisti> I'm pretty sure + is not strongly typed because it coerces stuff
04:08:15 <ais523> kallisti: "1" + "2" versus 1 + 2
04:08:24 <ais523> it doesn't coerce consistently, thus it's aware of argument types
04:08:40 <ais523> so not 100% strongly typed, but not 100% weakly typed either
04:09:06 <ais523> which is my point, JavaScript isn't sufficiently weakly typed to work as a weakly typed language
04:09:07 <kallisti> is that even a requirement of weak typing?
04:09:14 <ais523> kallisti: they're extremes
04:09:14 <kallisti> to be unaware of argument types?
04:09:27 <ais523> in 100% weak typing, types don't even exist really
04:09:44 <ais523> you only have one sort of data and talking about what "type" it is is meaningless, it just self-coerces
04:10:29 <ais523> I guess the strongest possible typing is in languages like OCaml, where you can't even add two floats with the same operator you use to add two ints
04:11:22 <kallisti> well I wouldn't say that polymorphism removes strong typedness
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04:11:34 <kallisti> weak typing is a really ambiguous concept though
04:11:58 <Sgeo__> Crud, Yahoo Pipes is shut down
04:12:30 <ais523> kallisti: polymorphism doesn't, it can only exist in the presence of at least moderately strong typing though
04:12:43 <ais523> otherwise you don't have enough of a type to be polymorphic /on/
04:12:54 <kallisti> I guess polymorphism does kind of imply some form of weak typing. with typeclasses in Haskell you can completely emulate every minute detail of a perl or javascript-esque type system
04:13:18 <kallisti> but in doing so you basically work with only one type, which is what I think weak typing is all about really, a kind of polymorphic universal type
04:13:48 <MDream> Yahoo pipes seemed neat, but I never figured out how to make it loop back on itself and filter well enough to really mess with it.
04:15:06 <MDream> Would have been fun to throw together an emulator in it, or kind of recursive Twitter chatbot.
04:15:35 <hppavilion[1]> So is there some way I can easily encode Kleinfunge's topology?
04:16:36 <hppavilion[1]> (I'll probably make them two separate commands, l and w perhaps)
04:16:51 <MDream> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klein_bottle Look at the section on construction.
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04:17:41 <MDream> It's just a torus with one axis mirrored along the wraparound edge.
04:18:40 <kallisti> I was thinking of what would make the most sense for a weakly typed Haskell environment
04:18:47 <kallisti> and I think it's basically just the Convertible typeclass
04:18:47 <MDream> Unless kleinfunge isn't to be neccesarily topologically equivalent to a klein bottle.
04:18:57 <kallisti> with a library of functions that are overloaded on it
04:19:26 <kallisti> if' :: (Convertible b Bool) -> b -> a -> a -> a
04:19:49 <kallisti> it gets kind of weird with number types though
04:20:01 <kallisti> because you have to pick an arbitrary number type and assume everything that's number-like has a convertible instance for it
04:20:40 <kallisti> actually I guess you could just use Num
04:20:50 <kallisti> (Convertible a n, Num n) should work fine no?
04:21:19 <Sgeo__> @oots_update and the Order of the Stick Automatic FB page are on manual operation until further notice.
04:21:56 <kallisti> the other approach is to have a WeakType typeclass that explicitly defines the set of things that you convert between: toBool, toString, toList, toObject, toNum, etc
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04:24:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44818&oldid=44817 * Hppavilion1 * (+24) Created empty wikitable (hopefully)
04:28:03 <oerjan> so i saw scott aaronson misspelling asperger as aspberger, and wanted to check in google to be sure. then i suddenly got the idea of seeing how well google's suggestions know me, by pushing one letter at a time and see if i needed 3 or 4 before it showed up.
04:28:11 <oerjan> turns out i just needed 2
04:28:31 <kallisti> do you think there would be any benefit to being able to locally define instances in Haskell, rather than doing the newtype kind of stuff?
04:29:26 <kallisti> I've talked to people that want that kind of functionality, but to me newtyping and redefining instances along with GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving seems like a better approach
04:29:44 <oerjan> kallisti: edwardk has pretty good arguments for not allowing more than one instance of each class+type
04:29:59 <kallisti> how often do you want to have an instance for only one expression? enough to warrant writing an entire typeclass instance for it?
04:30:35 <kallisti> unless you have a way to name instances, and keep them out of bounds somehow until someone decides to bring them in
04:30:51 <oerjan> kallisti: have you seen the reflection library twh
04:31:13 <pikhq_> oerjan: We're pretty good at inference HTH.
04:31:17 <kallisti> but I have seen the reflection library yes
04:31:51 <oerjan> in any case, you basically _need_ to define a type to avoid incorehence. but you could do that locally as well...
04:32:26 <oerjan> this may all become moot once goldfire gets pi types working.
04:32:31 <ais523> kallisti: "that would help"
04:32:39 <ais523> oerjan has an entire set of local acronyms, mostly ending in h
04:32:47 <ais523> that you get used to after a while
04:33:00 <kallisti> I could see the merits of being able to define the body of an instance declaration, then store it away into a name, without bring it into "scope" of the instance resolution mechanism
04:33:09 <kallisti> and then have a way to do like: let instance MyNameInstance in ...
04:33:26 <ais523> when he uses them, it gives me the impression that he's bitter about something
04:33:41 <kallisti> but you can do the same stuff with newtypes, in a more principle way.
04:33:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44819&oldid=44818 * Hppavilion1 * (+1094) Added commands (nowhere near complete)
04:34:26 <oerjan> hm acronyms as neurotic tics...
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04:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44820&oldid=44819 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a command character
04:34:40 <kallisti> for overlapping purposes you'd give the locally bound instance priority over everything else, even instances with the OVERLAPPING pragma
04:35:11 <kallisti> speaking of OVERLAPPING and friends. I wonder if they'll ever make that part of the language syntax
04:35:22 <kallisti> instead of {-# OVERLAPPING #-}
04:36:15 <kallisti> "think of all the code we'd break" -- GHC devs, 1991-2015
04:37:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Kleinfunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44821&oldid=44820 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Wikimarkup error
04:37:56 <hppavilion[1]> kallisti: I think they started saying that /before/ GHC was developed or started or conceived of or possible under the current laws of physics.
04:38:28 <oerjan> well, i dislike that those pragmas change the semantics of code
04:38:33 <kallisti> "but what if we break code that expects a completely different compiler named ghc in PATH?" -- GHC devs, 1991
04:38:45 <oerjan> anything that does should be triggered by a LANGUAGE one
04:39:07 <kallisti> oerjan: I honestly think that's the reasoning behind having them as pragmas. somewhere, someone named variable overlaps, overlapping, or overlappable
04:39:17 <kallisti> and they don't want to force that guy to do a find-replace on his source. :P
04:39:37 <oerjan> that was the original intent of the pragma system, that anything other than LANGUAGE could be ignored by a compiler that doesn't understand it, and code will still work fine.
04:40:00 <oerjan> possibly less efficiently, but it will still have the same meaning
04:41:04 <kallisti> it's definitely not a thing they should continue doing
04:41:14 <kallisti> imagine if type families and other syntax changing extensions used pragmas instead...
04:41:33 <hppavilion[1]> OK, so I've added a thing to Kleinfunge that allows you to change the direction of down.
04:41:51 <kallisti> I guess it wouldn't work with type families because the rest of the declaration is completely different
04:41:55 <kallisti> from a normal type declaration
04:42:09 <kallisti> whereas the instance declaration is completely the same other than the overlap* qualifier
04:43:36 <kallisti> oerjan: I guess the problem with using a new LANGUAGE pragmas is that they already had an existing pragma called OverlappingInstances and it would get pretty weird to make a new extension with a slightly different name
04:43:49 <oerjan> kallisti: "family" is ok because it's not in a position that can be confused. indeed you can still use it as an identifier with type families enabled.
04:43:51 <kallisti> PerInstanceOverlappingInstancesPragmaThing
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04:44:16 <oerjan> kallisti: well i guess that's why they did it
04:45:03 <oerjan> and that they couldn't find a place to put just "overlapping" where an identifier couldn't be
04:45:24 <kallisti> and then if they made it so that you use OverlappingInstances, but now you have to have the pragmas... that breaks all the code that was previously using OverlappingInstances and expecting implicit module-wide behavior
04:45:53 <kallisti> I think PerInstanceOverlappingInstances would have worked, though it's a pretty cumbersome name. :P
04:46:13 <kallisti> the nice thing about LANGUAGE pragmas is that the compiler can error if it doesn't support the extension
04:46:24 <kallisti> in this case there's no precedence for an OVERLAPS pragma so other compilers just silently ignore it
04:47:05 <oerjan> i suppose at least the code will _eventually_ break
04:47:27 <oerjan> if the overlap is actually used. hm, i guess that's good enough in a sense.
04:47:32 <kallisti> right but Hasell ain't about that life
04:48:19 <kallisti> hm, I guess the overlap would be a compile error still right?
04:49:12 <kallisti> I think, in the old system, if there was ever a situation where the overlappable/overlapping system came into effect, it would have already resulted in a compile error, right?
04:50:10 <kallisti> it only happens in situations where they're equally specific instances
04:50:24 <kallisti> then it chooses based on incoherence/the new overlap pragmas
04:51:36 <oerjan> oh actually they are breaking code
04:51:47 <oerjan> @let type Test family = family
04:52:04 <oerjan> that breaks even without the extension enabled
04:54:06 <kallisti> oerjan: are you sure it breaks without the extension?
04:58:13 <kallisti> I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure "family" is a valid type variable identifier in a Haskell2010 type declaration
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05:03:05 <oerjan> reported https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10996#ticket
05:05:51 <oerjan> it should be easier to fix than some the other "GHC uses one LALR(1) parser grammar regardless of extensions enabled" bugs
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05:09:46 <oerjan> so the reason why family can still be allowed as a _value_ identifier, i think, is that the lexer knows whether type or value identifiers can follow.
05:10:26 <oerjan> (even with TypeFamilies enabled)
05:10:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input ‘family’
05:10:42 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num undefined1) arising from a use of ‘family’
05:10:42 <lambdabot> add (Num undefined1) to the context of
05:11:43 <oerjan> @let type hi :++ there = (hi, there)
05:12:04 <oerjan> s/hi/family/ and you see that things get weird.
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05:13:06 <kallisti> Haskell isn't a family-friendly language. :3
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05:13:27 <oerjan> i suppose you _could_ hack around it, since :++ cannot follow type family
05:13:44 <oerjan> (with family as the keyword)
05:14:07 <kallisti> yeah it's possible to disambiguate due to the forced uppercase restriction on monomorphic type names
05:14:58 <oerjan> it's because you can always distinguish an operator from an identifier
05:15:32 <oerjan> or do you have a different example in mind that would break
05:16:01 <oerjan> you mean because "family" couldn't be one, right
05:16:20 <oerjan> i think you mean "constructor" not monomorphic
05:16:53 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal test declaration
05:17:54 <kallisti> basically I'm just saying that the only time you can have "family" after "type" is a) you have TypeFamilies enabled b) you're defining a type operator
05:18:19 <kallisti> or any lower case identifier, for that matter
05:19:37 <kallisti> I'm honestly surprised no one has reported that parse error yet
05:19:53 <kallisti> it must be really new or just no one names anything family anymore
05:21:07 <oerjan> it's probably because nearly everyone uses 1-char type variable names
05:24:30 <kallisti> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10800
05:24:41 <kallisti> jesus, up to 2 million type-level terms in the simplifier
05:27:28 <oerjan> hm so 7.10.2 didn't fix all those
05:28:27 <kallisti> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/8582 this would be really nice to have. making pattern synonyms work with record syntax
05:28:46 <kallisti> helps with some of the complaints people have about records not being extensible
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11:42:59 <lambdabot> uptime: 23d 14h 38m 13s, longest uptime: 1m 10d 23h 44m 29s
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12:16:27 <b_jonas> wait, it was complaining about the missing const?
12:16:49 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/tPZ7e :o
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12:50:03 <Jafet> Mercator puzzle: https://gmaps-samples.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/poly/puzzledrag.html
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13:38:05 <fizzie> Hey, I got Finland as a separate piece. Is that always the case?
13:38:28 <fizzie> Looks that way, at least reloading seems to get the same puzzle.
13:38:39 <fizzie> I was expecting it to randomly select a subset of countries.
13:38:53 <b_jonas> fizzie: the pieces are always the same, I think
13:39:09 <b_jonas> but four of them don't seem to match anywhere
13:40:34 <b_jonas> I think now I'm only missing four
13:43:03 <fizzie> I redid most of it, but now I'm missing one.
13:44:08 <b_jonas> the difficult ones are Mauritania, Peru, Saudi Arabia.
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13:48:07 <fizzie> Well, Mauritania does have a pretty distinctive shape.
13:48:26 <fizzie> Although I first thought it might've been a US state, those tend to be quite straight-edge too.
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13:49:19 <fizzie> Also I somehow assumed that South Africa's hole was a body of water.
13:49:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: probably I just don't know much about africa
13:49:41 <b_jonas> but the two central african ones are tricky
13:50:49 <fizzie> I mostly just did pattern-matching on the country boundaries on the underlying map, I'm not good at all at a priori recognition of country shapes.
13:50:55 <fizzie> Well, except for Finland.
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17:29:32 <mauris> @tell mroman aw jeez, burlesque's EveryNth (en) doesn't start at the first item in the list? :(
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17:30:12 <mauris> @tell mroman i need, say, a list [1, 8, 15, ... 100] in steps of 7, and all i can find is Pp{pP.%1==}FO which sucks
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17:35:37 <mauris> @tell mroman ok there's literally discussion about this on the PPCG question i'm solving nevermind
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17:43:06 <int-e> oh is GG back to updating early?
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18:49:54 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you run a church denumeraliztion algorithm (or the same for set theory) on an invalid church numeral (or set theoretical equivalent)?
18:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> Is there an algorithm primitive enough that it can generate numbers that don't exist?
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19:12:25 <gamemanj> numbers that don't exist... that's confusing
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20:06:50 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I have a representation of naturals based on a finite rose tree forest.
20:07:02 <Taneb> Things get interesting if you extend it to infinite rose forests
20:21:10 <shachaf> rose trees are naturally infinite, it seems
20:21:17 <shachaf> but maybe my heuristic is bad
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21:14:02 <izabera> does anyone here know why i can't set the content type in a .htaccess file? all i'm doing is Content-Type: application/jose+json
21:14:44 <izabera> do i have to enable something or what
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21:18:21 <fizzie> There's normally an error log. But I don't think there is a directive called "Content-Type". You don't put headers in a .htaccess file; you put in configuration directives.
21:18:51 <fizzie> ForceType 'application/whatever' perhaps, as per http://httpd.apache.org/docs/current/mod/core.html#forcetype
21:19:10 <shachaf> you should definitely check the error log
21:19:13 <fizzie> "When placed into an .htaccess file or a <Directory>, or <Location> or <Files> section, this directive forces all matching files to be served with the content type identification given by media-type."
21:19:19 <shachaf> that server sounds pretty discontent
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22:16:55 <boily> fungot: fungellot. I was wondering today about your diet. what do you eat?
22:16:56 <fungot> boily: cb13 vc9 vc8 vc7 vc6 vc5 vc4 vc3 vc2 vc1 vc0
22:17:09 <boily> fungot: oh, pure vitamin complexes. very efficient!
22:17:09 <fungot> boily: bit bit when set to 239 ( ef), the microprocessor to write more than one of the serial bus, in fact imply the principle, although only two physical screen lines long, at 74171.2136compuserve.com.
22:17:18 <fungot> fizzie: switch sense line." the parts of the pointer willbe loaded into the y and x is the address bus drivers allowing the two versions of pet/ cbm by raeto west.
22:17:43 <fizzie> I think from now on, if I feel like saying "make sense" to someone, I'll say "switch sense line" instead.
22:22:37 <fizzie> I can't remember what that style was trained with.
22:23:16 <fizzie> fungot: What was that book, and where do I have a copy of it?
22:23:16 <fungot> fizzie: 120 open 1,1,1,"tape-file": input a: if the flag interrupt is a corresponding 1 to 7, which is available to hold incoming keystrokes until they can be changed to point to integer conversion, in order for ring modulation to be independently selected in order to arrive at an even distribution of or behind other objects on the screen, and
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23:59:45 <HackEgo> lambdabot/lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
00:02:40 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
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00:26:29 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[b]’ with actual type ‘Maybe Integer’
00:26:29 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘map’, namely ‘(Just 5)’
00:26:29 <lambdabot> In the expression: map (+ 21) (Just 5)
00:31:16 <fizzie> map is very list-oriented.
00:33:53 <fizzie> There's @src and there's @instances, but I guess there's no @src-of-instance.
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00:49:31 <boily> shun the Royal Jelly and its acid blobs.
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00:51:50 <boily> Ox0dea: do you DCSS?
00:52:24 <Ox0dea> boily: I don't, sorry.
00:55:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
00:55:49 <lambdabot> Source not found. There are some things that I just don't know.
00:55:58 <oerjan> fizzie: ... there used to be
00:56:08 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
00:56:16 <lambdabot> (>>=) :: forall a b. m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
00:56:16 <lambdabot> (>>) :: forall a b. m a -> m b -> m b
00:56:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just try something else.
00:56:58 <oerjan> @ask int-e What happened to @src giving instance definitions, i'm _sure_ it used to have some...
00:59:34 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:34 <lambdabot> Source not found. My brain just exploded
00:59:37 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:38 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:40 <boily> @src something-that-doesnt-exist-in-lambdies-db
00:59:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
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01:02:12 <oerjan> @tell int-e oops, false alarm
01:02:38 <boily> @src ZipList Monad
01:02:39 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
01:03:08 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
01:03:31 <shachaf> perhaps @src predates ZipList hth
01:03:40 <oerjan> @src is pretty old-fashioned and doesn't believe in those new-fangled Applicatives.
01:03:44 <lambdabot> class Functor f => Applicative f where
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01:06:31 <Ox0dea> "Nothing is just Nothing." -- Arya of House Peyton-Jones
01:08:08 <boily> Ox0dea: I shall quote you on that wisdomically.
01:08:32 <boily> oerjan: speaking of wisdom, you `learned an invention that isn't a tanebvention.
01:08:39 <boily> that is disturbing.
01:08:53 <oerjan> i think i just edited that
01:09:04 <shachaf> `` egrep -r '[^b] invented' wisdom
01:09:05 <HackEgo> wisdom/cpressey:cpressey invented the esolang, the pipe cleaner and the electrical mousse. \ wisdom/twoducks:TwoDucks programming language was invented in 2023. \ wisdom/al gore:Al Gore invented the algorithm. \ wisdom/algorithm:Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algo
01:09:32 <boily> cpressey is grandfathered in.
01:09:51 <oerjan> because he's like, the grandfather of esolangs?
01:10:07 <boily> he invented the esolang after all.
01:10:28 <Ox0dea> Doesn't that belong to the FALSE guy?
01:11:15 <shachaf> `` egrep -r '[^b] invented' wisdom | tail -n+5
01:11:17 <HackEgo> wisdom/hexchat:Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham. \ wisdom/go:Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia. \ wisdom/universe:The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan. \ wisdom/nitia:nitia is the inventor of all things. The
01:11:57 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
01:12:37 * boily waves “Those aren't the notanebventions you aren't not looking for, eh”
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01:39:40 <HackEgo> A category is just a category object in the category of classes.
01:39:55 <tswett> `culprits wisdom/category
01:39:59 <HackEgo> tswett int-e ais523 shachaf elliott oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
01:41:33 <HackEgo> In category theory, category theory is a theory in the category of theories.
01:42:59 <oerjan> <fizzie> I was expecting it to randomly select a subset of countries. <-- :(
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01:45:38 <tswett> `le/rn category/A category is an enriched category where the enriching category is the category of classes.
01:45:54 <HackEgo> Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
01:46:07 <HackEgo> Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
01:46:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/monoids: ERROR: cannot open `wisdom/monoids' (No such file or directory)
01:46:46 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott shachaf
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01:47:12 <shachaf> that sentence makes no sense
01:47:26 <shachaf> "categories with a single object" isn't the thing that monoids are the easy version of
01:48:02 <shachaf> oerjan: this is like the algorithm thing
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01:48:12 <shachaf> you can't just mix two wisdoms and hope for an improved combined wisdom
01:48:55 <HackEgo> itidus20/itidus20's entry has been censored.
01:49:03 <HackEgo> substructural typing/Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
01:49:14 <ais523> hmm, how to combine those
01:49:39 <ais523> "itidus20/itidus20 was confused about structural subtyping, but [CENSORED]"
01:49:47 <ais523> it's not that funny but neither were the originals
01:49:57 <tswett> `le/rn Monoids are just the easy version of categories. Kids these days don't know how easy they've got it... in my day, two-sorted algebraic structures were the only kind we had, and we LIKED it!
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01:50:34 <tswett> By the way, what's your opinion on this?
01:50:36 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
01:50:46 <shachaf> i was happy with the way it was
01:51:04 <tswett> You preferred wisdom/monoid immediately before I changed it just now?
01:51:32 <shachaf> I preferred it before oerjan merged them.
01:52:48 <tswett> `le/rn monoid/A monoid is the easy version of a category.
01:52:57 <tswett> `le/rn monoids/Monoids are categories with single objects.
01:53:10 <tswett> `le/rn monoids/Monoids are just categories with single objects.
01:53:28 <shachaf> i was hoping to get some input from oerjan
01:53:35 <shachaf> not just to mess his thing up
01:54:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mkcommittee: not found
01:54:34 <tswett> What? What sort of Unix-like environment doesn't have mkcommittee?
01:54:56 <tswett> This isn't very welcoming. I'm feeling underwelcomed.
01:55:05 <tswett> I need some way to compensate for this feeling of underwelcome.
01:55:20 <tswett> Yes. Yes. Most wonderful.
01:55:28 <HackEgo> [ "$1" == "on" ] && echo 'Autowelcome enabled.' || echo 'Autowelcome disabled.'
01:55:42 <ais523> that script looks a lot like it doesn't do anything but print a message
01:56:50 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/Mon*: No such file or directory
01:56:56 <HackEgo> wisdom/monad \ wisdom/monads \ wisdom/monoid \ wisdom/monoidal category \ wisdom/monoids \ wisdom/monqy
01:57:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i already checked, it's not there hth
01:57:28 <shachaf> otherwise it would've printed "learnt «foo»" or something
01:58:22 <oerjan> ais523: _sometimes_ you're a bit captain obvious hth
01:58:57 <oerjan> wait that sounded all wrong.
02:00:15 <oerjan> ais523: i'm sure it would do something if it were possible to get HackEgo to do that something.
02:01:06 <HackEgo> cat: bin/le/rn: No such file or directory
02:01:25 <oerjan> wait, how does that even work.
02:01:45 <HackEgo> bin/learn \ bin/learn_append \ bin/learn_append2
02:02:39 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ [[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
02:02:47 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 17 Jun 5 04:35 le/rn -> ../bin/slashlearn
02:03:03 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
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02:08:37 <ais523> is that obfuscated bash?
02:08:41 <oerjan> `mk wisdom/`mk//Everything's better with `mk.
02:09:23 <oerjan> ais523: i don't see what's obfuscated about it
02:09:26 <ais523> it uses a ton of operators that are rarely used, and is very punctuation-heavy as a result
02:09:44 <ais523> even something like "?*//*" severely strains my mental parser
02:10:16 <oerjan> i would not write such a thing in bash, but i don't know if there's a better way if you do
02:10:18 <shachaf> ais523: All I wanted to do was split a string on the first occurrence of //
02:10:48 <ais523> what's the question mark for?
02:11:36 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/mk: line 1: : No such file or directory
02:11:38 <shachaf> Making sure the first part isn't empty.
02:11:54 <oerjan> shachaf: i found a loophole in that hth
02:11:55 <shachaf> As oerjan points out, it doesn't work very well.
02:12:08 <shachaf> improvements are welcome twh
02:12:23 <oerjan> i don't think you can use the loophole for anything, though
02:12:40 <shachaf> I don't think the check is even strictly necessary.
02:12:56 <shachaf> `` echo "blah" > ""; echo $?
02:12:57 <HackEgo> bash: : No such file or directory \ 1
02:13:32 <oerjan> istr you discussed empty filenames the other day, and POSIX forbids them
02:14:37 * oerjan somehow wants a better pronoun there. something that means, "we, but not me, and possibly not you (singular) either"
02:15:37 <shachaf> it's not exclusive, is it?
02:19:43 <shachaf> in another channel there was a swatworthy moment discussing the phrase "all that glitters is not gold"
02:19:49 <shachaf> it's a pity you weren't there
02:20:16 <oerjan> a missed golden opportunity, for sure
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03:18:25 <\oren\> can people quiet down and stop having their lovers quarrel in the allwy behind my house
03:19:30 <\oren\> I opened the window and yelled "Hello! Can You quiet down out there!"
03:21:53 <\oren\> Oh god damn it stop whimpering and shrieking
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03:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44822&oldid=44573 * Phase * (-78) That branch was merged
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05:25:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44823&oldid=42119 * 106.219.33.0 * (+4) /* More examples */
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09:10:19 <ais523> wow is github's UI for merge commits terrible, it seems to show all the content that was being merged in even if the merge itself was lawful good (i.e. no conflicts anywhere)
09:11:41 <Jafet> ...I don't think that's what they mean by "sequence alignment"
09:13:20 <ais523> well isn't "evil merge" an established git phrase? I took the opposite, then intensified it
09:13:39 <ais523> (I assume a merge with conflicts, in which the merge-conflict-fixing is obvious and benign, would be chaotic good)
09:14:39 <Jafet> Would that mean that lawful evil merges are the worst (no conflicts, but your code breaks)
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09:15:57 <ais523> although an "evil merge" normally refers to introducing something unrelated in a merge commit
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09:17:49 <ais523> presumably a true neutral commit is when you actually cherry-picked, rather than merging, and had to heavily modify the code to get it to fit with the codebase
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09:22:24 <Taneb> ais523: what would chaotic and lawful neutral be?
09:23:02 <ais523> lawful neutral is an extra commit just after the merge, that does nothing but delete trailing whitespace
09:23:10 <ais523> not sure about CN offhand
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09:54:55 <fizzie> "Deconstructed Salad-Smoked Salmon" what does that even mean
09:55:38 <fizzie> Ohh, it's "Deconstructed salad: smoked salmon, something else, more stuff."
09:56:01 <fizzie> I still don't know exactly what it means, but at least it's more plausible.
09:58:52 <ais523> clearly you set the salad on fire and use it to smoke the salmon
09:59:14 <ais523> (yesterday I had a meal I haven't had in over 10 years: chicken mayo and lettuice toastie)
09:59:29 <ais523> (I ordered it by mistake once and discovered I rather liked it, despite the fact that people rarely toast lettuice)
09:59:42 <ais523> the hard part was convincing the chef to cook it
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10:26:52 <fizzie> A deconstructed salad was just a thing where you have the ingredients for a salad in different containers.
10:27:17 <fizzie> Although I have a feeling they never were in a salad together at any point in time.
10:27:50 <ais523> idea: a salad sorting machine, which you put a salad in and it sorts out the individual ingredients
10:28:05 <ais523> useful if you have a salad that contains something you can't eat or don't like, but which you otherwise want to eat
10:28:13 <ais523> (you can subsequently shuffle the desired ingredients back together)
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10:29:13 <fizzie> Might be a challenging build if it needs to handle more liquid ingredients.
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10:44:16 <b_jonas> ais523: salad sorter: http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=944
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11:07:12 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == ?*//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
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11:26:25 <lambdabot> FTTJ 221100Z 07008KT 030V110 CAVOK 38/03 Q1010 NOSIG
11:27:15 <lambdabot> FEFF 221100Z VRB02KT 8000 SCT026 32/22 Q1011 NOSIG
11:27:38 <boily> warmth, why must you be so far away...
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11:43:10 <fizzie> >30? That's crazy-talk.
11:43:18 <lambdabot> EGLL 221120Z AUTO 29010KT 9999 OVC031 14/07 Q1017
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13:17:22 <quintopia> apparently that 30+ was africa? boily must be cold too
13:18:55 <lambdabot> LOWI 221250Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW060 12/02 Q1016 NOSIG
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14:06:00 <Deewiant> https://www.reddit.com/r/befunge/ was this necessary, I wonder
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14:12:57 <int-e> no, reddit wasn't necessary
14:13:36 <int-e> but it's a minor nuisance compared to facebook and twitter ;)
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14:31:40 <oerjan> quintopia: someone close to int-e
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14:41:13 <mroman> Does someone have a vServer with CGI Support :)?
14:42:27 <mroman> @tell mauris: Yeah en is different than pythons [::a], but I just commented on that codegolf post and included some workarounds
14:43:53 <mroman> did it post that to mauris or mauris:?
14:43:58 <mroman> @tell mauris Yeah en is different than pythons [::a], but I just commented on that codegolf post and included some workarounds
14:44:37 <mroman> @tell mauris There's 7mo14.+?i1+] but I found a better way today which is by using co: 100ro7co)-]
14:45:07 <mroman> @tell mauris generally slicing as in [::a] can be done by doing a co)-]
14:46:59 <int-e> how can you have a vserver without cgi support?
14:47:19 <int-e> I mean, aren't you supposed to be root on those things?
14:47:59 <mroman> I don't have a vServer anymore I'm afraid.
14:48:47 <mroman> and 7bc0R@?*15.+?i is probably my worst attempt at the problem :D
14:51:20 <int-e> anyway, what are you trying to do?
14:51:44 <mroman> @tell mauris Well actually 1{7?+}14!C is even shorter. (If you output the numbers)
14:51:56 <mroman> int-e: Trying to host the burlesque online shell again :D
14:52:08 <mroman> so people can use Burlesque again without installing it locally
14:52:35 <mroman> and I don't think haskell2javascript is advanced enough for that to work
14:52:59 <mroman> so the easiest option is through CGI like I did in the past.
14:53:11 <oerjan> are you sure, i hear ghcjs is pretty impressive these days
14:53:31 <mroman> No, I just haven't heard any good things about it lately
14:53:44 <quintopia> what was that language someone made that was based on programming by example
14:54:04 <int-e> mroman: I guess I could give you an account on my cloud at coast server... I'm not using it for anything useful anyway
14:54:21 <int-e> (this one, http://104.167.104.168/)
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14:54:38 <mroman> doesn't ghcjs require some backend server running as well?
14:54:44 <mroman> like node.js or something?
14:54:57 <oerjan> i don't know how it works
14:55:23 <oerjan> except that it supports most of ghc haskell and can even install cabal packages
14:55:24 <mroman> int-e: I guess that could be awesome.
14:55:40 <mroman> can you set limits on that account?
14:55:54 <mroman> because somebody could easily try to run a script that consumes 4GB of memory ;)
14:56:10 <mroman> I had configured limits through apache
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14:59:32 <mroman> If you give me a www-home-dir (such as host/~username/cgi-bin) then you need to make sure that those programs in cgi-bin aren't run under the user the webserver runs under
14:59:35 <fizzie> int-e: Ah, the NoCloudAtAnyCost provider.
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15:00:15 <int-e> fizzie: is hackego still running on one of those?
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15:03:25 <mroman> I can't even access error logs on my server
15:03:30 <mroman> in case I mess up a .htacess or something
15:03:36 <mroman> I have so fucking limited access :(
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15:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RubE On Conveyor Belts]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44824&oldid=38332 * 152.26.69.43 * (+48) /* Interpreter source code */
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16:44:40 <MDream> They don't need too, but neither do register-oriented languages.
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16:46:16 <MDream> What I mean is, what stack-based alnguage do you mean specifically?
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16:46:22 <hppavilion[1]> I always assumed WHILE (or a similar counterpart) was pretty much necessary for TCness, as a TM can not halt (as opposed to cannot halt)
16:46:31 <b_jonas> argh. I'm blaming the compiler now.
16:46:31 <MDude> I know stack languages can have loops.
16:47:00 <hppavilion[1]> They pop a couple variables and an anonymous function
16:47:25 <MDude> A FOR loop can be seen as a while loop in which the loop control variable is only modified when ti is checked.
16:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> You can do something like for(i=0;False;i++;) {...}
16:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> (The second argument to for can be any boolean value or thing returning a boolean value, if it's designed correctly)
16:48:43 <MDude> The only stack-ased language I've learned to any great extent is IBNIZ.
16:49:54 <MDude> I don't know wbout non-esoteric ones as much, but I'm pretty sure Forth has while loops.
16:51:51 <MDude> You can also get TCness with gotos, subtroutines, or functions.
16:52:23 <MDude> Though the first one is seen as undesired outside of assembly coding.
16:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> I think that my design for Wbye could support WHILE loops
16:55:02 <myname> hppavilion[1]: first: False actually doesn't make sense. second: nothingnis also valid in most languages
16:56:11 <myname> but for(;;) is a valid endless loop most of the time
16:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> So at the bottom is goto-if, upon which we get k-loops and while-loops, and upon that is for, and upon that is foreach.
16:56:46 <myname> so why not for(i=0;;i++)
16:57:25 <MDude> for(i=0;;i++) would take up a whole variable for no reason.
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16:57:46 <myname> yeah, so just (;;) is fine
16:57:48 <MDude> If numbers are bignum by default, it's even an unbounded memory leak.
16:58:47 <fizzie> If i is signed, for(i=0;;i++); is undefined.
16:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> I was thinking in stack-based, where you can't tell it how many variables it gets, it just pops a fixed number
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17:00:37 <MDude> Stack based languages use a secondary stack to manage loops.
17:01:00 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: But a Stack-based FOR loop still gets its arguments from the main stack, iirc
17:01:04 <MDude> Or they useone for FOR loops anyway.
17:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> OK. That's why I wrote it with all the extra arguments then.
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17:02:11 <fizzie> Forth has "uncounted" loops -- `BEGIN ... test WHILE ... REPEAT`, `BEGIN ... test UNTIL` and `BEGIN ... AGAIN` -- and counted loops -- `limit start DO ... LOOP`.
17:02:49 <fizzie> Where ... is for loop body, and 'test' something that's supposed to leave a flag on the stack on whether to continue or not.
17:02:56 <MDude> I was confused earlier because there's a stack based programming language named FALSE which does in fact make sense.
17:06:41 <mroman> enough burlesque'ing on codegolf.stackexchange.com for today
17:07:36 <mroman> but the ones I know use the same stack for that.
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17:08:25 <fizzie> The Forth control flow stack is "logically" a separate stack, but it's allowed to be the same stack as the data stack.
17:08:34 <fizzie> Gforth at least does it that way.
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17:10:22 <Taneb> How does that work
17:13:07 <fizzie> By... pushing a thing on the data stack?
17:13:57 <Taneb> So you can pop the return location?
17:15:50 <fizzie> No, that would be the return stack.
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17:18:27 <fizzie> Although I might have misremembered, maybe it was actually the return stack where gforth puts the loop control structures.
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17:18:54 <fizzie> "ANS Forth permits and supports using control structures in a non-nested way. Information about incomplete control structures is stored on the control-flow stack. This stack may be implemented on the Forth data stack, and this is what we have done in Gforth."
17:19:27 <fizzie> Well, that seems to be quite definite. But my empirical tests did not make it look like that's the case.
17:20:29 <fizzie> It certainly looks like it's the return stack they're using.
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17:21:51 <fizzie> But the manual's stack effect descriptors claim that it's the data stack. Meh, whatever.
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17:58:34 <izabera> it's nice that tlmgr update --all only updates the packages but not tlmgr itself
17:59:10 <izabera> so --all is more like --almost-all
18:00:49 <izabera> i know that at least some of you use texlive <.<
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18:14:39 <myname> i use texlive, but the package manager of my distribution should handle that
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18:35:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ArbourDB]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44825 * Hppavilion1 * (+247) Created Page
18:37:38 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a CSV-based funge designed for actual usability and potential serious usage
18:38:28 <myname> funge is perfectly usable
18:38:51 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: so like y/;//d when loading the program?
18:39:03 <b_jonas> or whatever separator you use
18:40:17 <hppavilion[1]> Though based on the name, I can guess it's fairly simple
18:40:23 <myname> well, characger seperated values
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18:40:29 <myname> pretty much sums it up
18:40:55 <myname> you actually don't have to use commas
18:41:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44826&oldid=42257 * 70.45.127.182 * (+478)
18:41:23 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: some CSV has double-quotes in it to escape most values, or only the values that contain the column delimiter or newlines. that's harder to parse, just y/\t//d won't work, because you may have to join lines when there's a quoted newline
18:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm starting out in Python; C(++)? implementation comes later)
18:42:36 <b_jonas> also, everyone has a different idea about what csv means, and they sometimes publish "standards" and say that their code writes and reads "standard csv" but of course there's no single such thing
18:42:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mmmm()]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44827&oldid=44826 * 70.45.127.182 * (-478)
18:43:48 <myname> what do you mean by "usable"?
18:44:14 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Something that, in a universe where I was lucky, could end up being used seriously.
18:44:44 <myname> why should one use it over befunge?
18:45:13 <hppavilion[1]> myname: It's actually readable. It allows you to push numbers anywhere in the range of a signed long integer.
18:45:28 <hppavilion[1]> It allows expressions that are evaluated on preprocessing.
18:46:14 <myname> so, you are trying to make a preprocessor and call it a language
18:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really plan to sell it, I'm just bored. xD.
18:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, technically, a preprocessor is a language; a primitive transcompiler)
18:48:10 <myname> i am not convinced yet
18:48:41 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't really for usage, it's just designed to be marginally usable.
18:48:42 <myname> well yeah, basically changing brainfuck symbols to letters is a language
18:49:11 <myname> these langiages tend to suck, though
18:49:34 <b_jonas> at least it's not a BF variant
18:49:48 <myname> befunge is perfectly useable, just look at fungot
18:49:48 <fungot> myname: like multi-color mode you could find a considerable amount of each register is set to 129 and 128 per line 200, 300 if dv=positive) call the old vector address in 53272 ( d018).
18:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But no one treats it as usable outside of this channel. No one's even /heard/ of it outside of this channel.
18:50:37 <myname> that will be true for whazever you are trying to do, i guess
18:51:53 <b_jonas> I think technically Mouse wasn't designed as an esolang
18:52:23 <hppavilion[1]> Thue wasn't even technically designed as an esolang, AFAIK. It was just an example in a paper.
18:52:27 <b_jonas> but then I think Befunge is a bit less convenient than Mouse, because of the lack of named variables or named subroutines
18:53:27 <b_jonas> does Befunge have an indirect jump?
18:53:33 <myname> rail actually has a lot of features
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19:19:36 <fizzie> b_jonas: Indirect in what sense? You can treat x in Funge-98 as an arbitrary relative jump (with operands from the stack), though it needs to have a "landing pad" to reset the delta.
19:26:06 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that sense is fine
19:30:10 <fizzie> (There's also a j, which pops a number and jumps that * delta.)
19:33:34 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's even easier
19:34:39 <hppavilion[1]> (by 90 degrees (or any other number, for that matter))
19:38:37 <fizzie> (x, y) = (-y, x) etc. are the usual 90-degree rotations.
19:39:13 <fizzie> They fall out of the [cos x, -sin x; sin x, cos x] rotation matrix.
19:44:02 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Is that one for clockwise or counter-clockwise? And what's the other one? Am I asking stupid questions?
19:44:11 <hppavilion[1]> I don't feel like doing that much thinking right now xD
19:44:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think I figured out that that's the one for clockwise
19:45:27 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: Is it? (1,2) to (-2,1)?
19:45:54 <int-e> fizzie: are you thinking in screen coordinates?
19:46:11 <fizzie> Depends on which screen that is!
19:47:08 <int-e> oh I see, the matrix didn't agree with the previous one.
19:48:19 <int-e> sorry, too many conventions at play here ... are you working with vectors?
19:48:30 <int-e> with *column* vectors?
19:49:17 <fizzie> Column vectors, yes, but I may have gotten rows/columns mixed up when going from the implied [0 1; -1 0] to the sincossy one.
19:49:34 <fizzie> Did I just do that again.
19:50:00 <fizzie> Yes. I'm going to just not say anything, I think.
19:50:31 <int-e> at least you're consistent
19:51:03 <Phantom_Hoover> where noon is at the right, the hands go anticlockwise and the hours are marked off in radians
19:51:04 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: *Anyway*, the pair of (x, y) = (-y, x) is (x, y) = (y, -x).
19:52:02 <hppavilion[1]> I don't really know what a pair is. Keep in mind, I just finished first quarter algebra II. And barely passed.
19:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> (well, I know that a pair is a 2-tuple, but I don't know what it is in /this/ context)
19:53:03 * int-e is confused as well.
19:55:06 <hppavilion[1]> I added the cardinal directions to what I'm calling Profunge.
19:55:31 <int-e> hmm... non-cardinal... omega + 1
19:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> I mean like the secondary ones, the ones at 45 degree angles from the cardinals xD
19:56:25 <int-e> skip those and add knight moves
19:58:21 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll reserve the 4 secondaries for that same library.
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20:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Should I include tradtional single-character stack manipulation commands?
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21:05:00 <fizzie> Sometimes, the text/plain half of a multipart/alternative messages can be rather different than the HTML part.
21:05:35 <fizzie> This one says: "preview email text - enter one line of text to show up in the preview window make it fairly long", and "[TITLE_ONE_HALF HREF TITLE ALL-CAPS]", and "This is very important English email. This is def not Latin. Please don't flag this as Latin because it isn't."
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21:40:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DLosc * New user account
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22:39:32 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, I think I discovered a new (or at least seldom discussed) programming style and paradigm.
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22:43:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44828&oldid=44393 * Hppavilion1 * (+61) Linked to fungeoids
22:43:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44829&oldid=44828 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed the link (Gah! I never get those right!)
22:46:13 <fizzie> FWIW, the existing page refers to Funge-98 here and there. It might make sense to just have a joint article for them.
22:47:10 <fizzie> Not that they couldn't be separate either, just musing.
22:47:30 <ais523> I think we should have befunge-93 and funge-98 as articles
22:47:36 <ais523> and suitable redirects/disambiguations
22:52:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funge-98]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44830&oldid=21000 * Hppavilion1 * (+395) Initialized page, will work on later.
22:53:12 <hppavilion[1]> Yay! The wiki get a disambiguation! I'm so proud of it, all grown up :,)
22:53:50 <hppavilion[1]> I agree with ais523; Funge-98 is /very/ different from Befunge-93
22:54:42 <hppavilion[1]> Though I do think that Funge-98's page should be about /(Concurrent)? (Un|B|Tr)efunge-98/, instead of having different pages for each.
22:54:47 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it has a disambiguation already
22:54:50 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
22:55:19 <ais523> was great that two experienced esolangers just happened to pick the same name for their languages :-)
22:55:57 <fizzie> It's not the only one, either.
22:56:01 <fizzie> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Disambig
22:56:07 <fizzie> Clue, Onecode, Gibberish.
22:57:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44831&oldid=44829 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* History */ Fixed/repurposed a link.
22:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making a language called Profunge that is designed to be a Fungeoid that is technically seriously usable. I'm trying to decide whether to allow traditional, single-character commands (like : for dup, $ for drop, \ for swap, etc.)
22:59:58 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: Befunge-98 is already seriously usable
23:00:03 <ais523> fungot: demonstrate for me
23:00:03 <fungot> ais523: these two sources, timer a is used to verify ram, starting from the memory address in low-byte, high-byte order).
23:00:18 <fizzie> I don't think this is the best style for demonstrations.
23:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Technically, yes. However, it'll never get taken seriously, as it was made as an esolang.
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23:01:36 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: well if you're trying to make a new language as a non-esolang, it's even less likely that people will take it seriously because you're competing with languages which have had a lot of effort put into them
23:02:07 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't really mean for it to be used xD. That's why I said "Technically".
23:03:09 <hppavilion[1]> I just mean that it /could/, in /theory/, be seriously used by someone someday
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00:01:51 <\oren\> the quickest way to get a language into at least some use would be to attain high station near the start of a company, and put it into use in that comapny's core infrastructure
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00:14:34 <pikhq_> Followed shortly by attaining high station in a company and then insisting they use it in that company's core infrastructure going forward.
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00:48:21 <hppavilion[1]> What happens when you add a matrix of width w and height h to a matrix of width w and height 1? Does that not work, or could you add the second matrix repeatedly to each row?
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00:49:54 <hppavilion[1]> [REPEATED] In other news, I think I discovered a new (or at least seldom discussed) programming style and paradigm.
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01:23:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Standard single-character instructions]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44832 * Hppavilion1 * (+822) Created Page
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01:29:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Standard single-character instructions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44833&oldid=44832 * Hppavilion1 * (+413) Clarification
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02:18:24 <FireFly> stringy array programming sounds... weird
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03:32:56 <hppavilion[1]> So I think Profunge will have a tape of stacks and transfer box.
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03:34:45 <hppavilion[1]> And there'll be a command to pop into the transfer box and to push from the transfer box relative to the stack in the current cell
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04:58:33 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: omodetou
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05:14:00 <hppavilion[1]> A way to graph a function in two dimensions where x ∈ 𝕄(m, n)
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05:28:38 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
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06:43:42 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> (or nonymous function if the language allows) <-- onymous hth
06:44:25 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that n is part of the an- prefix hth
06:45:08 <hppavilion[1]> a- and an- are two different prefixes (which mean the same things), and "anonymous" uses the a- prefix.
06:45:18 <izabera> oerjan: that's the pseudon- prefix
06:45:33 * oerjan goes on a swatting spree -----###
06:46:15 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: By "pseudonymous", we get the root word "nymous"
06:46:17 * oerjan throws a norange on hppavilion[1]
06:47:30 * oerjan is making an etymological joke hth hth
06:49:14 <hppavilion[1]> I think a good Profunge IDE will have instruction highlighting when interpreting
06:49:55 <oerjan> the joke is that orange actually did lose an initial n in that way, although probably before it reached english
06:51:03 <oerjan> that word seems to have traveled a fair bit https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/orange#Etymology
06:51:46 <hppavilion[1]> And yet nowhere did anyone think to invent a word that rhymes
06:53:50 <hppavilion[1]> The concept of a proprietary programming language is absolutely disgusting.
06:54:03 <Hoolootwo> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nonorange
06:54:31 <Hoolootwo> though it probably doesn't count because it's clearly derived from orange
06:55:07 <hppavilion[1]> Well, Blorenge is a hill in Norway, but that's a proper noun.
06:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> Instruction Highlighting. Basically, to write Profunge, you have to use a spreadsheet-eque IDE. Otherwise nothing makes sense.
06:56:36 <hppavilion[1]> So when you interpret it, the cells' `backgroundcolor`s are changed based on where the IPs are.
07:08:08 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure Blorenge wouldn't rhyme with orange.
07:09:28 <oerjan> well if it were norwegian. google doesn't confirm that.
07:10:31 <oerjan> it would be a strange, but not entirely imposssible word in norwegian.
07:14:25 * oerjan cannot find anything closer than Bjoreng
07:14:46 <oerjan> which sounds like it would be a place name, although the hits are surnames
07:17:15 <oerjan> <MDude> I don't know wbout non-esoteric ones as much, but I'm pretty sure Forth has while loops. <-- underload doesn't have while loops, anyway. although you can obviously simulate them.
07:18:02 <oerjan> all unbounded looping in underload essentially requires quineing.
07:18:28 <fungot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ...too much output!
07:19:10 <lambdabot> ENVA 230650Z 29015KT 9999 VCSH FEW020 BKN040 10/07 Q1004 TEMPO SHRA BKN012 RMK WIND 670FT 30019KT
07:19:28 <oerjan> where does it say that it's rainging cats and dogs
07:21:28 <Jafet> Radio detection and rainging
07:22:14 <oerjan> i am merely assuming my typo was a subconscious rhyme with orange hth
07:22:33 <oerjan> (that wasn't what i pinged you for btw)
07:23:16 <HackEgo> 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
07:23:22 <HackEgo> west midlands/Nobody knows anything about the West Midlands, and it has claimed the lives of at least two former regulars in this channel who tried to investigate so far.
07:23:54 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/west midlands
07:23:56 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Taneb Taneb
07:24:28 * oerjan isn't too steady on english geography
07:27:29 <oerjan> all i remember from school is the phrase "hop gardens of Kent"
07:28:32 <oerjan> which probably ironically stuck because it seemed like such a local thing
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07:28:52 <mroman> Can you read the pixels with javascript from an image loaded from a different host through an img tag?
07:29:43 <mroman> like uhm.. <img src="http://other.server.com/img.png" style="display: none" /> and then check if this is a 1px red image?
07:30:26 * oerjan assumes the answer is "no, unless you somehow enable cross-site scripting" but is prepared for anything more insane
07:31:26 <oerjan> "cross-site scripting" in the wide sense here, in case it matters
07:31:58 <mroman> but if the src of the image is on the same host, I can?
07:32:17 <mroman> (I'm not loading the image through javascript. That's done through a static html tag)
07:32:37 <oerjan> i am just guessing. i've never written anything with javascript.
07:33:18 <mroman> "Make sure the image is from the same domain or you won't have access to its pixels"
07:33:24 <mroman> that's a stackoverflow answer
07:33:28 <oerjan> barring possibly trivial testing
07:33:53 <oerjan> mroman: it sounds to me like something that _shouldn't_ be allowed by default, anyway.
07:34:04 <mroman> but can't you set some HTTP header to enable that anyway?
07:34:31 <mroman> oh, but that'd be a header on the other.server.com I suppose :)
07:34:44 <mroman> at least that's what would make sense from a security perspective :D
07:36:29 <mroman> yeah, other.server.com can set Access-Control-Allow-Origin headers
07:37:29 <mroman> if you provide a REST-API...
07:37:35 <mroman> wouldn't you need to allow * anyway?
07:38:42 <shachaf> mroman: no, you can't see the pixels unless it's from the same domain
07:38:58 <shachaf> mroman: unless you do something like https://cseweb.ucsd.edu/~dkohlbre/papers/subnormal.pdf
07:40:18 <shachaf> of course, if it's on the same domain, you can just see the bytes of the file directly, no need for canvas or anything like that
07:40:27 <mroman> but how does this header work?
07:40:35 <mroman> the browser obviously is performing the request
07:40:52 <mroman> and the target server responsd with an Access-Control-Allow-Origin header
07:41:05 <mroman> but the browser already made the request
07:41:09 <shachaf> oh, you can set these header things if you control the server, yes
07:41:26 <shachaf> javascript can make a request to a url on a different domain
07:41:32 <shachaf> it just can't necessarily see the response
07:42:00 <shachaf> but you can see some of the response, e.g. you can make a POST request inside an iframe and make onload and onerror handlers to distinguish whether the request completed successfully
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07:42:39 <mroman> can you get the status code of the response?
07:42:59 <shachaf> i don't think so, just success/failure
07:43:04 <shachaf> but maybe you can get more
07:43:04 <mroman> even if the target server doesn't set the allow-origin header
07:43:21 <shachaf> this is often enough to e.g. figure out whether a user is logged in, though
07:44:51 <mroman> I'm trying to find a way to receive data from a different domain.
07:45:13 <kallisti> XMLHttpRequest can give you a status code
07:45:16 <kallisti> if that's something you can do
07:45:27 <mroman> kallisti: does that work with SOP?
07:45:35 <shachaf> mroman: oh, you can do the jsonp thing
07:46:00 <shachaf> <script src="..."></script>, and have a page that returns the data "f(...)"
07:46:38 <shachaf> and to upload information cross-domain you can use a form in an iframe to POST data
07:46:39 <kallisti> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/19673450/xmlhttprequest-same-origin-policy
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07:47:03 <shachaf> or you can use fancy modern http headers if you want to do it the easy way
07:47:39 <mroman> other.server.com is actually some sort of Single-Sign-On system
07:47:44 <mroman> and I want to read the token of the user :)
07:48:21 <mroman> I'll try the jsonp thing
07:48:29 <shachaf> other.server.com belongs to you?
07:50:14 <kallisti> even if you don't have cross-origin access, HTTP GET requests still go through you jsut can't read the response
07:50:18 <kallisti> not sure what happens with a POST/DELETE
07:52:33 <mroman> this jsonp thing works
07:52:39 <mroman> although it doesn't need to be json obviously
07:53:23 <kallisti> mroman: maybe something like this would help you? http://www.html5rocks.com/en/tutorials/cors/
07:55:33 <mroman> With the js-payload technique I don't even need cors settings.
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07:58:14 <kallisti> b-b-but muh security vulnerabilities
08:00:43 <kallisti> I'll let you figure out how easy it is to form a malicious request with a injected jsonp callback
08:05:11 <shachaf> kallisti is suggesting that you don't trust other.server.com but aren't aware that it could be executing arbitrary code
08:05:52 <mroman> yeah but people don't care about that
08:06:03 <mroman> otherwise you couldn't include any js-library from some cdn
08:06:16 <mroman> like mathjax, angular, firebase and all those
08:06:47 <mroman> my other.server.com can just set cors headers and then you can do the regular ajax requests
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08:57:39 <mroman> http://conorobrien-foxx.github.io/Simplex/
08:57:46 <mroman> there are so many golfing languages nowadays
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09:06:34 <mroman> blsq ) 1111000010110000001101111011011011010110011000110111 4234234234234423?/
09:06:34 <mroman> 262385108770647877376679257100526699
09:06:34 <mroman> blsq ) 1111000010110000001101111011011011010110011000110111 4234234234234423pd?/
09:06:37 <mroman> 262385108770647900000000000000000000.0
09:06:39 <mroman> holy shit what the fuck is that
09:11:20 <myname> "Simplex is a golf-based (i.e. esoteric) programming language" :(
09:20:10 <gamemanj> maybe we should go back to the simple times, and just go ahead and start all collectively using COBOL or some other horror
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09:24:59 <mroman> what's start of string in POSIX?
09:29:06 <gamemanj> I don't think there is a "start of string" byte... there is a "newline" byte, though, that's 0x0A, and 0x00 is standard for end-of-string in C.
09:29:26 <gamemanj> But newline goes at the end of lines, not at the start.
09:31:13 <fizzie> I don't think POSIX regular expressions have that; you only get a ^ for start-of-line.
09:31:42 <fizzie> (I assume this is about regular expressions, because \A is beginning-of-string in the Perl ones.)
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09:38:14 <mroman> it's \` and \' apparentely for the Text.Regex package I'm using.
09:42:33 <mroman> hm. {"10"j~[}al is shorter than any regex I know of to check if it's a binary number
09:42:54 <mroman> regex would be "\`[01]*\\'"~=
09:43:58 <mroman> gamemanj: yeah I meant regex
09:48:37 <fizzie> I think normally people would just write it as ^[0-1]*$ and not worry about having multiple lines in there.
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10:26:04 <mroman> yeah but ^$ doesn't work in POSIX Regex
10:26:51 <mroman> I thought I tested that
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10:31:47 <mroman> swiss police is doing a mass dna test
10:32:04 <mroman> they narrowed it down to 372 suspects
10:32:32 <mroman> now each has to do a dna test.
10:32:42 <mroman> that's some good police work there :D
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11:07:37 <HackEgo> mycology/mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
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11:21:19 <HackEgo> tswett/tswett is livin' it up with the penguins because he's so bad at following directions.
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13:27:44 <mroman> latin-1 isn't a valid HTML charset
13:28:53 <ais523> just call it by a fancier name :-P
13:29:08 <fizzie> If you want all your euros to be ¤s. :)
13:29:15 <b_jonas> ais523: and then browsers interpret it as cp1252 for Internet Explorer compatibility
13:29:36 <b_jonas> ais523: so no, you can't have iso-8859-1 as a html charset ever, because everyone will silently treat it as cp1252
13:29:38 <ais523> fizzie: latin-1 doesn't have an € though
13:29:42 <ais523> that's like latin-14 I think
13:30:06 <fizzie> (I like how the -N's at the end aren't in sync.)
13:30:30 <fizzie> "ISO/IEC 8859-15:1999, Information technology — 8-bit single-byte coded graphic character sets — Part 15: Latin alphabet No. 9,"
13:30:32 <ais523> now you've said that, i think I know why
13:30:44 <ais523> (because not all of them are latin, but all of them are ISO-8859)
13:31:13 <b_jonas> but nobody actually uses iso-8859-15 or iso-8859-16. people use cp1252 or cp1250 instead.
13:31:20 <b_jonas> or just use utf-8 or utf-16
13:31:55 <b_jonas> iso-8859-15 was born when nobody cared about byte encodings enough to start using yet another new byte encoding
13:32:31 <fizzie> People do use ISO-8859-15.
13:33:06 <fizzie> Well, maybe not any longer. But they did.
13:33:28 <fizzie> I used to have it as the fallback character set for my IRC client, because Finnish channels had ISO-8859-15 €s.
13:33:34 <b_jonas> what? someone used it and then _stopped_? that would be even more surprisng
13:33:55 <b_jonas> didn't they use cp1252-new euros?
13:34:10 <fizzie> Not the channels I were on.
13:34:21 <b_jonas> I remember back when we used iso-8859-2 on an irc channel
13:34:27 <b_jonas> that irc channel has switched since
13:34:35 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_8859-15 "There were attempts to make ISO-8859-15 the default character set for 8-bit communication, but it was never able to supplant the popular ISO-8859-1. However, it did see some use as a character set for terminal or textual programs under Linux when the Euro sign was needed, but the use of full UTF-8 (Unicode) was not practical."
13:34:56 <fizzie> I think we had some university classroom machines defaulted to a ISO-8859-15 locale.
13:35:07 <fizzie> I'm hoping they're UTF-8 now.
13:35:13 <mroman> cp1252 could be aliased as charset=windows
13:35:18 <b_jonas> yes, now every channel I know uses utf-8
13:35:41 <b_jonas> wtf "the default character set for 8-bit communication"
13:35:51 <b_jonas> there's always ten "the default"s
13:36:21 <mroman> nobody needs control characters anymore .
13:36:42 <mroman> so they could replace END OF TEXT with the euro sign.
13:37:06 <mroman> nobody uses IRC anymore
13:37:10 <b_jonas> please tell me when the name or address of companies with accented letters don't get unrecognizably garbled on my bank account transactions list please
13:37:36 <fizzie> Nobody needs the 80..9f control characters, perhaps.
13:37:40 <mroman> freenode doesn't even allow me to use ö in my nickname
13:37:50 <b_jonas> fizzie: some people have used some of those. not all, but a few.
13:38:06 <fizzie> well, some people do send CSI, maybe.
13:38:09 <b_jonas> mroman: yes, that's because clients might not like it
13:38:28 <b_jonas> mroman: try using | instead or something
13:40:06 <ais523> what's CSI in Windows-1252?
13:40:19 <ais523> (CSI is the only high-control code that I'm aware of people using)
13:40:26 <b_jonas> ais523: cp1252 doesn't have high control characters
13:40:32 <ais523> b_jonas: no, I mean what character is at 0x9b
13:41:55 <ais523> hmm, that does look kind-of like a CSI would look if it weren't invisible
13:44:39 <FireFly> I think using the 8-bit CSI would be an improvement over the 7-bit one, since that way <Esc> [ and <CSI> wouldn't alias each other
13:45:07 <ais523> Esc aliasing things is pretty much an occupational hazard of terminals nowadays though
13:45:17 <ais523> NH4 has the alt_is_esc option for a reason
13:50:05 <mroman> Firefox should really allow you to scroll past pages
13:50:33 <mroman> If you put a link like uhm <a href="#thingonthebottom">go there</a> but there's no content after #thingonthebottom
13:50:51 <mroman> then firefox will scroll so far down that #thingonthebottom is at the bottom of the display
13:51:12 <mroman> which is very confusing because if you follow such a link you usually exepect that the corresponding element will be at the top of the window
13:52:06 <mroman> and by firefox I mean whatever old version debian has shipped based on firefox :D
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14:42:52 <mroman> -rwxr-xr-x 1 burlesque burlesque 14M Oct 23 10:35 ./blsq
14:42:53 <mroman> -bash: ./blsq: No such file or directory
14:43:15 <mroman> what's bash complaining about?
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14:50:53 <ais523> it's very confusing that exec gives enoent on missing shared libraries in addition to the file you tell it to execute being missing
14:51:18 <mroman> it's not a dynamic executable :)
14:51:37 <mroman> (i.e. ldd ./blsq lists no missing libraries)
14:51:47 <mroman> but I suppose libc or something like that might be missing
14:52:07 <mroman> I'm not sure but I think you need to install some stuff before you can run 32bit binaries on a 64bit linux
14:53:13 <b_jonas> ais523: not more confusing than how you already get ENOENT for either file doesn't exist or one of the parent paths doesn't exists, and many other errnos can result from looking up a path too
14:53:31 <b_jonas> that happens for other syscalls than execve, such as for open or link
14:53:53 <b_jonas> link and rename are particularly tricky because they get two paths
14:53:54 <ais523> mroman: you need to install 32-bit ld-linux.so, plus any libraries it depends on (libc is the most common dependency)
14:54:23 <b_jonas> for blsq, it might be easier to just get a 64-bit version
14:54:42 <mroman> I don't have a 64bit linux available
14:54:46 <mroman> except the server from int-e
14:54:51 <mroman> which has ghc installed
14:54:57 <mroman> can users install cabal packages?
14:55:16 <mroman> hm. there's no cabal installed
14:57:28 <b_jonas> mroman: install a newer haskell from binary straight on the server, compile with it?
14:57:55 <mroman> i'd also need a lot of hackage packages
14:58:14 <b_jonas> mroman: install the "haskell platform"? how many do you need other than that?
14:58:34 <mroman> blsq has a huge dependency graph :D
14:58:36 <b_jonas> mroman: if it's a haskell program, you're screwed anyway, because you'd need to install a lot of shared libraries for just the haskell runtime and modules
14:58:52 <mroman> not if i link it statically
14:59:07 <mroman> which is the default anyway for ghc binaries afaik
14:59:11 <b_jonas> reimplement it in C++ or something?
14:59:26 <b_jonas> yeah, I know that would be hard
14:59:31 <b_jonas> it has lazy semantics and all
14:59:34 <mroman> especially the lazyness
14:59:50 <b_jonas> though at least you don't want it to be very efficient
14:59:51 <mroman> no either someone can compile it for me on a 64bit machine
15:00:01 <mroman> or I can ask int-e to install 32bit support
15:00:10 <b_jonas> I only have an old ghc, sorry
15:00:38 <b_jonas> I use x86_64, but I don't use haskell these days
15:00:41 <mroman> because then I can update it whenever I want.
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15:01:35 <mroman> (mostly because blsq needs the statastics package, for disttributions and such)
15:01:53 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/blob/master/Burlesque/Eval.hs#L24
15:03:43 <b_jonas> Distributions and statistics, meh. There's at least four independent implementations I can list that would provide those.
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15:03:59 <b_jonas> Not in haskell, but the computation part.
15:05:49 <fizzie> If it's a Debian server, it's relatively simple to install the 32-bit compatibility libraries.
15:06:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, that depends on the version of debian. if it's wheezy or newer, it's easy to install them. if it's squeeze or older, it might be more difficult.
15:06:50 <b_jonas> libc itself is easy in any case, but some other libraries can be difficult
15:08:08 <b_jonas> yes, then it should be easy, unless it's very low on disk space or some other resource
15:08:24 <fizzie> Even squeeze has that 'ia32-libs' collection for "popular" packages.
15:08:39 <fizzie> Of course if you need some arbitrary random i386 thing, it might get difficult.
15:09:01 <mroman> ghc's static binaries should really just only rely on libc I think
15:10:21 <fizzie> Well, that ldd should tell you what it depends on.
15:10:23 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes. it's a collection of popular packages, but if you actually try to use those 32-bit applications where can't just get a 64-bit one or compile one, it generally turns out you don't have the right library or the right version of it.
15:10:48 <b_jonas> mroman: it has to rely on some of libc. some of libc is very hard to link statically.
15:10:53 <b_jonas> mroman: most of libc can, but that's not enough.
15:11:18 <b_jonas> and you said yourself that blsq has lots of dependencies
15:11:35 <b_jonas> some of those probably require non-haskell libraries too
15:11:59 <mroman> libpthread, librt and the like are not statically as it looks
15:12:22 <mroman> http://codepad.org/QTtq7fJ8
15:12:27 <mroman> ^- that's what ldd lists on my machine
15:12:48 <fizzie> Well, that's a relatively short list.
15:15:06 <b_jonas> mroman: those are just the ones loaded at ldd.so time. there might be more loaded at runtime, sadly, though there ought not to be.
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15:58:12 <mroman> blsq doesn't compile anymore :(
16:04:44 <mroman> I'm adding an everynth built-in like pythons [::a]
16:04:51 <mroman> so people stop complaining about it being missing :D
16:08:26 <b_jonas> ] _3{.\ 'you''re adding an every nth builtin? good idea'
16:08:46 <b_jonas> oh wait, the bot's not here
16:09:04 <b_jonas> I meant to start it, but a bug manifested in it, and I didn't start it after
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16:22:05 <b_jonas> a moment, I'll try to fix my bot
16:28:47 <izabera> https://github.com/reinderien/mimic
16:30:09 <Taneb> izabera: ooh, evil
16:30:58 <mroman> https://github.com/m654z/g-asterisk
16:31:22 <mroman> yeah, there are really many, many, many golfing languages around nowadays
16:31:35 <mroman> most of them are less than a few weeks old
16:32:40 <mroman> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/40073/making-future-posts-runnable-online-with-stack-snippets/57190#57190
16:32:54 <mroman> somebody rewrote the Beam interpreter as a stacksnippet
16:35:28 <Taneb> izabera: that link got a very nice reaction in another CS channel I'm in
16:36:22 <Taneb> <LordAro> Taneb: NO <LordAro> NONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONONO
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16:42:28 <mroman> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/58615/1-2-fizz-4-buzz/58688#58688
16:42:33 <mroman> somebody wrote a FizzBuzz in Beam
16:42:57 <mroman> This is literally the coolest thing I've seen on stackexchange :D
16:44:27 <Taneb> Isn't beam the bytecode for erlang
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16:47:50 <gamemanj> I wonder what would happen if someone abstracted one of the 2d esolangs into 16x16 tiles, and wrote higher-level blocks in those... and continued adding more layers of abstraction... could they make a normal language?
16:48:03 <b_jonas> ] _3{.\ 'you''re adding an every nth builtin? good idea'
16:48:03 <evalj> b_jonas: y' dgnvytblngdd
16:48:10 <b_jonas> ] _3{:\ 'you''re adding an every nth builtin? good idea'
16:48:10 <evalj> b_jonas: uednaern ii oia
16:51:28 <mroman> gamemanj: I had a similar idea once
16:51:42 <mroman> mainly where you can create "components"
16:51:46 <mroman> and then use those components
16:52:17 <mroman> where ADDER is a component
16:57:15 <mroman> (if adder leaves with DIR_UP you start at the D in the middle)
16:57:35 <mroman> (same with DIR_DOWN, DIR_LEFT starts at A and DIR_RIGHT at R in this case)
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18:45:19 <fizzie> "I glide into the station knowing my platform. I am train."
18:45:44 <fizzie> That's what this "trainline" ad is saying.
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18:48:24 <gamemanj> No, it's an advert for an esoteric language, where the specification of the object goes before the object type that's being defined...
18:48:54 <gamemanj> "I glide into the station" is what occurs in the constructor, and "knowing my platform" is the property definition for "platform"
18:49:07 <gamemanj> and "I am train" is what defines what type of object it is
19:00:09 <int-e> "I am train" is how a train of thought asserts its consciousness.
19:01:54 <gamemanj> What happens when that train of thought that is conscious has a meta-train-of-thought
19:02:06 <gamemanj> which asserts it's own consciousness
19:02:30 <int-e> two trains of thought mate?
19:02:49 <gamemanj> Can you see how this could be a mind forkbomb
19:02:54 <int-e> Does it result in a train wreck?
19:04:02 <gamemanj> each train of thought will have trains of thought which will have their own trains of thought... even if every train of thought had only one sub-train, it would eventually be too overwhelming for the containing mind
19:04:32 <gamemanj> and if it had two sub-trains, you're doomed
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19:10:22 <hppavilion[1]> You know that diagram that is used in schools to explain the imaginaries to students?
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20:01:01 <myname> is it possible to have a list in haskell that doesn't end in [] but works nontheless because of lazy evaluation?
20:01:17 <myname> like, head (1:2:3:bottom)
20:01:33 <fizzie> Isn't that, like, any cyclic list?
20:01:58 <fizzie> > let ones = 1:ones in take 10 $ ones -- and so on
20:02:13 <myname> i do think so, i wasn't sure wether or not that is trwßeated any special way
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20:03:35 <fizzie> > let boom = [1,2,3,undefined] in take 3 boom ++ take 4 boom
20:03:37 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,1,2,3,*Exception: Prelude.undefined
20:03:44 <fizzie> Wait, no, that ends in a [].
20:04:20 <fizzie> > let f :: Int; f = f; boom = [1,2,3,f] in take 3 boom
20:04:24 <fizzie> > let f :: Int; f = f; boom = [1,2,3,f] in take 4 boom
20:05:12 <fizzie> Well, that actually does end in a [] too, I keep having brain-farts. But I'm sure it'd be the same if you had 1:2:3:f for f :: [Int] or some-such.
20:05:15 <myname> > let boom = 1:2:undefined in take 2 boom
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21:26:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3code]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44834&oldid=17774 * LegionMammal978 * (+13)
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22:17:05 <kallisti> hey guys I just thought of the best esolang
22:17:23 <kallisti> a language where the only data representation is various fixed sized arrays of boolean values
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23:00:28 <Sgeo__> Should I watch the Wayside movie or will it make me puke as too childish and not close enough to the books?
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23:19:27 <hppavilion[1]> I ALMOST have 99 bottles of beer working, except I don't have a way to convert a string to an int and back again
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23:25:19 <izabera> found it here http://academia.stackexchange.com/questions/30539/i-was-caught-cheating-on-an-exam-how-can-i-minimize-the-damage
23:25:29 <izabera> google is somewhat vague on the topic
23:26:50 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I assume it's a warning from the dean of the college.
23:27:27 <izabera> oh i wasn't familiar with the word "dean"
23:27:42 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's sort of like the principal, as far as I know.
23:28:11 <hppavilion[1]> Except It only prints "<N> BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!" Counting down from 99 to 0. With no line breaks.
23:28:50 <oerjan> `addquote <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's sort of like the principal, as far as I know. <hppavilion[1]> Except It only prints "<N> BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!" Counting down from 99 to 0. With no line breaks.
23:28:53 <HackEgo> 1257) <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It's sort of like the principal, as far as I know. <hppavilion[1]> Except It only prints "<N> BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!" Counting down from 99 to 0. With no line breaks.
23:29:12 <\oren\> is everyone in california ok
23:29:41 <\oren\> mexico is prbably doomed, but can we save califoria from the hurricane
23:30:29 <izabera> how do you save anything from a f. hurricane?
23:31:43 <\oren\> izabera: maybe they can build waterbreaks out of all those bags of cocaine
23:31:53 <hppavilion[1]> "99" ">" "DUP" "PRINT" "' BOTTLES OF BEER ON THE WALL!'" "PRINT" "v" / "NOP" "NSIF1" "NOP" "DUP" "SUB" "1" "<" "This doesn't work. I need to add an INT and STR command." / "NOP" "EXIT"
23:32:29 <oerjan> "(CNN) Hurricane Patricia -- the strongest hurricane ever recorded -- weakened slightly Friday as it barreled closer to Mexico's Pacific coast, with sustained winds decreasing to 190 mph and gusts to 235 mph, the National Hurricane Center said in its ..."
23:33:25 <hppavilion[1]> (It's OK to make that joke because nobody's died yet)
23:33:37 * oerjan tells hppavilion[1] to write 100 times on the blackboard: "I WILL NOT CREATE SAPIENT MALEVOLENT HURRICANES"
23:34:18 <oerjan> you can also use a whiteboard, but you must use physical chalk or marker hth
23:34:26 <hppavilion[1]> for x in range(100): blackboard.write("I WILL NOT CREATE SAPIENT MALEVOLENT HURRICANES\n\n")
23:35:18 * oerjan goes to plan for the "I WILL NOT CREATE SAPIENT MALEVOLENT BOARD-WRITING ROBOTS" issue tomorrow
23:37:35 <oerjan> or the alternative "I WILL NOT USE PERMANENT MARKERS ON THE SCHOOL BOARDS"
23:38:18 <izabera> and where are you going to use them?
23:38:36 <kallisti> I've been watching a livestream of the coast where it's going to hit
23:38:48 <kallisti> but mostly just reading the idiotic chat
23:39:54 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I believe idiocy is open-source public-domain and creative-commons
23:40:28 <kallisti> I take a sort of morbid pleasure in being horrified by the collective ignorance of a random sample of humanity
23:40:31 <izabera> \oren\: does your font have ™ ?
23:40:40 <oerjan> technically none of that contradicts it being a trademark, no?
23:40:43 <kallisti> it's a confusing emotion for me
23:41:31 * oerjan is reminded of today's xkcd
23:42:51 <oerjan> it may be approaching yesterday's dependent on timezone
23:43:56 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, i think randall munroe has just lost all sense of how to structure a joke
23:45:07 <oerjan> in that case, i think so did monty python, because that reminds me of their sketches
23:46:51 <hppavilion[1]> So profunge now supports a primitive 99 bottles of beer and a hello world. Next step: ~Self-hosting compiler~ IDE.
23:49:14 <kallisti> but new xkcd no punch line just context. :_(
23:50:15 <oerjan> i think kallisti may be emulating the people from that other channel
23:50:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: that "Next step" does look a little big. what about a quine?
23:51:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: The Idiotic Channel (TM) hth
23:51:42 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I struck out "Self-hosting compiler" in favour of an IDE
23:52:18 <kallisti> I was going to bring up a self-hosting IDE but I'm pretty sure that's the vast majority of IDEs
23:52:29 <kallisti> a more interesting problem is to make an IDE that cannot be used to develop itself.
23:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> The reason I'm doing an IDE before a Quine is that it's a huge pain in the ass to do CSV by hand, especially when you can't align things.
23:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> It's a compiler written in an IDE that can only compile IDEs.
23:53:58 <hppavilion[1]> IDEs are an interesting example of code for the sake of code.
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23:54:25 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: you can write a program to generate a quine, i did that with ///
23:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: OR I could just make an IDE and do it by hand.
23:55:11 <hppavilion[1]> It wouldn't be too hard; All I really need is a cell-based notepad.
23:56:54 <Melvar> I also thought “ein Tabellenkalkulationsprogramm?” … because I can’t remember what the English term is … oh right, a spreadsheet program.
23:57:53 <hppavilion[1]> It's going to have a cool feature called "Instruction Highlighting" that highlights the current cell during interpretation :)
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00:22:55 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: of course that's possible, if you can add an interpreter option to tell the IDE the information
00:23:26 <oerjan> well you could print it to stderr perhaps
00:24:36 <oerjan> well if you're using linuxy fork, you could also agree on another file descriptor number i guess
00:25:12 <oerjan> or you could use a named pipe
00:30:57 <izabera> aww that's the most boring alternative
00:31:05 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I suggested that. Check "Stream" on the wiki.
00:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Unfortunately, I'm a windows user, AND I prefer this to be cross-platform
00:31:52 <izabera> Phantom_Hoover: that's much better
00:31:57 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I would, but I haven't gotten around to dual booting yet.
00:32:04 * oerjan swats Phantom_Hoover on principle -----###
00:32:11 <hppavilion[1]> (I also do some light gaming, and games usually are made for windwos, so...)
00:32:20 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway your stderrin is questionable, you should be able to pipe it
00:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: Oh right. You should add that to the wiki.
00:33:10 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean that semantically stderrin should be the stderr of the previous program in the pipe
00:34:12 <hppavilion[1]> cat invalidFile 3> (cat > error.log) or something along those lines
00:35:55 <izabera> can someone write a kernel with tube() instead of pipe() ?
00:36:42 <fizzie> Maybe be bidirectional?
00:36:55 <fizzie> Although I think at least Solaris' pipes are actually bidirectional.
00:36:57 <izabera> YES bidi pipes are so much needed
00:37:20 <fizzie> Solaris also has doors, which is another whimsically named IPC construct.
00:37:49 <izabera> you need a pen and enough ink to write at least 6 letters
00:37:50 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone here feel like /finally/ developing the EsOS?
00:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> Well, I feel like finally getting around to the EsOS. Anyone who feels like helping should speak up.
00:39:48 <izabera> is there any esoteric language that can be used by humans to speak?
00:39:55 <hppavilion[1]> (Optionally, I've created the channel #esoteric-os)
00:40:08 <fizzie> Huh, OpenBSD/FreeBSD (but not NetBSD) pipes are bidirectional too, according to their corresponding pipe(2) manpages.
00:41:36 <fizzie> "Confined to and understandable by only an enlightened inner circle."
00:41:38 <izabera> i feel that being unambiguous is a /start/, nothing more than a basic requirement
00:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I meant unambiguous as being useful for being executed by a computer.
00:43:45 <hppavilion[1]> It would be like esolangs, but we would ascend to gods in the process.
00:44:25 <Sgeo__> Well. The movie was... odd, but it seemed more like it was making references to the books rather than being based on the books
00:44:34 <Sgeo__> Although I barely remember the books
00:44:47 <izabera> fizzie: the man page says it appeared in system V r4 which is from 1989... why doesn't linux have this?
00:45:01 <fizzie> It's never been part of POSIXy things.
00:45:10 <izabera> linux does a lot more than posix
00:46:58 <izabera> i don't see why it's not more used, looks like a useful interface
00:47:51 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: are you actually doing it?
00:47:52 <fizzie> izabera: I think because it wouldn't be at all portable anyway, and there's always socketpair when you do need it.
00:48:19 <hppavilion[1]> I know almmost nothing about OS development, and I was hoping for some help, but I can figure it out.
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00:49:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm also reading the Rust OS development readme and joining #rust-osdev on irc.mozilla.org
00:49:35 <izabera> i think it'd be easier to first define which parts would be esoteric
00:50:54 <fizzie> There's certainly people running Forth on bare metal.
00:51:29 <fizzie> Does the Open Firmware stuff count?
00:52:30 <fizzie> colorForth I think is also a "Forth OS".
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01:06:13 <oerjan> my vague impression was that Forth was *designed* to be used on bare metal.
01:06:52 <oerjan> hm i, too, seem to be transitioning from emphasizing with _ to emphasizing with *. silly markdown!
01:07:31 <izabera> do you mean %silly% markdown
01:08:07 <izabera> it surely got your attention, didn't it?
01:08:12 <oerjan> SO markdown doesn't seem to recognize that.
01:10:12 <zzo38> Forth could be used at any level, I think.
01:10:57 <oerjan> izabera: i hear markdown has so many variants, there's probably one that makes that mean something
01:15:33 <FireFly> oerjan: ...markdown allows both, I think, so you could stick to _underscores_ if you prefer
01:15:53 <FireFly> although *asterisks* seem to be more common
01:17:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: true`: not found
01:17:25 <fizzie> Whoops, didn't think that one through.
01:20:34 <FireFly> Curiously zsh allows `` but chokes on $()
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01:52:14 <zzo38> When I try to print a PCL document to the "HP Laserjet P1102w" printer, the light just blink instead of printing; do you know what is wrong? (I tried to phone them, they couldn't help)
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02:19:12 <\oren\> try taking the ink out and shaking it hard, then putting it back in
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02:25:15 <zzo38> Do you know how ZjStream format is working? I found a document but it doesn't quite explain everything
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03:03:46 <zzo38> Actually, apparently it supports "ZJS,URF,PCLm,PJL,ACL,HTTP". What is PCLm?
03:06:54 <zzo38> It seems that PCLm is a subset of PDF, and seems to have nothing to do with PCL. But I don't know what URF and ACL mean either.
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03:19:49 <\oren\> it is a huge pain in the ass
03:20:15 <hppavilion[1]> And I might have to set up more than one in my lifetime
03:20:37 <\oren\> usually you have to compile the compiler from source to make it work
03:21:02 <hppavilion[1]> Do I have to get all the stuff from http://wiki.osdev.org/GCC_Cross-Compiler#Downloading_the_Source_Code by hand, or can I just get the binutils stuff and have it come with?
03:22:48 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to build https://github.com/thepowersgang/rust-barebones-kernel as practice and it says I need a cross-compiling binutils for i586-elf or x86_64-elf
03:23:35 <\oren\> tht doesn't make sense
03:23:51 <\oren\> are you not ON either of those?
03:24:17 <\oren\> what OS and cpu do you have?
03:27:49 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I'm running Windows 10 on... not sure what the cpu is, to tell the truth. Or even what cpu names sound like. The core is an i5 I think.
03:28:29 <\oren\> so the issue is you need an EXE that can create ELF's. got it
03:28:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: It says I need A recent (1.0 nightly) build of rustc, A suitable cross-compiling copy of binutils (i586-elf or x86_64-elf), and A copy of the libcore source in .../libcore (synlink will do), so I'm getting those.
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03:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: The windows 10 is because I'm lazy and my parents raised me on windows.
03:30:08 <zgrep> Evil parents. Pure, windows infused evil.
03:30:46 <\oren\> I grew up on Red Hat linux dual boot with Win98
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03:32:46 <\oren\> I first learned to program with Perl and Visual Basic
03:32:52 <hppavilion[1]> So I did git clone git://sourceware.org/git/binutils-gdb.git. Am I on the right track, or am I doing something entirely wrong?
03:33:02 <adu> \oren\: I'm feel so bad for you
03:33:19 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's a "bats"?
03:33:38 <\oren\> basically window's anemic version of a shell script
03:33:40 <adu> oh, I've never used Windows
03:33:55 <adu> I grew up on Mac and Linux
03:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I've been meaning to get a linux distribution running on here (dual-boot), but I'm too lazy. I'll do it someday.
03:34:29 <\oren\> for windows automation, .bat's are ok, but I prefer to write a little VB program
03:34:31 <zgrep> Make that day today!
03:34:49 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I used to dual-boot and triple-boot back in the day, but now I just use VMs
03:34:55 <\oren\> why dual boot when you can get a server in the cloud
03:35:04 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: Not even a usb?
03:35:16 <hppavilion[1]> zgrep: Not one big enough. Don't think there are any around here.
03:35:30 <zgrep> A small distro isn't *that* big...
03:35:37 <zgrep> ...unless it's a really tiny flash drive.
03:35:51 <\oren\> do you have a 2GB or larger one
03:36:01 <hppavilion[1]> I used to work with a guy who had dreams of running a company. We were discussing what computers he was going to give employees. He wanted to put all the programmers on Windows. I went to a lot of effort to explain to him he was being a fucking moron. I failed.
03:36:10 <\oren\> really 1GB should be enough
03:36:28 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: What's the maximum you know of...
03:37:13 <zgrep> Plug it in, it should say it somewhere.
03:38:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: well, it's irrelevant if he was being a moron, you should have showed him than unix programmers are 2571% more productive than windows programmers
03:38:42 <\oren\> but like I said you can get a cloud server. in particular, you can use AWS's free tier to get a free linux box to do stuff on
03:39:05 <zgrep> adu: Nice statistic.
03:39:34 <adu> zgrep: did you know that 76.3% of statistics are invented on the spot?
03:39:58 <\oren\> https://aws.amazon.com/free/ <-- a free linux box for one whole year
03:40:12 <zgrep> adu: It seems to have risen from last year's 73.9%.
03:41:19 <adu> I wonder what the standard deviation of that is
03:45:39 <hppavilion[1]> I don't feel like downloading another many-gigabyte file.
03:46:04 <adu> I prefer Debian over Ubuntu
03:46:10 <\oren\> eh. actually if you don't mind windows 10, ubuntu will be fine for you
03:46:41 <adu> granted, VirtualBox supports Ubuntu out-of-the-box, but I recently figured out how to install VBox additions on Debian, so I'm super-happy now
03:47:19 <adu> \oren\: I've never used Windows 10
03:48:15 <\oren\> you should hope never to encounter it. Win8 and win10 are indescribable horrors of UI design
03:48:59 <adu> well, whenever I encounter Windows at work, I usually find a way to get my employer to buy a mac, or let me install Linux instead
03:49:36 <zzo38> I did use a computer with Win8 once; it is not much difficulty to use, all the WIN+R and ALT+F4 and ALT+TAB and cmd.exe and so on seem working same as in older versions of Windows
03:49:41 <\oren\> I use a macbook pro at work, but I connected a proper keyboard and a three button mouse mouse
03:50:09 <\oren\> and a external monitor too
03:50:20 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's bathroom tiles?
03:50:26 <\oren\> eh. Win10 still LOOKS terible
03:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> Or maybe I just switched it to something that looks bad xD
03:50:55 <\oren\> adu: I see you are living in blissful ignorance of the horrific tiles.
03:51:36 <hppavilion[1]> How much space should I make for ubuntu? It's a ~800 gb drive
03:52:03 <adu> hppavilion[1]: at least 20G
03:52:12 <zzo38> Although the main menu is clearly different, the old keyboard commands are still working, and cmd.exe is still working, so it doesn't seem much of a problem to figure out.
03:52:14 <\oren\> they are rectangular tiles with nothing that looks in any way familiar to eye, scattered in colors across a screen that has neither taskbar nor separate windows
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03:52:22 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I usually go halvsies
03:53:16 <adu> \oren\: oh, I thought that was called "Metro" which when I first read about it, thought it was the trains in the DC area
03:53:24 <zzo38> But my own computer is now OEM Ubuntu with 160 GB hard drive, although I removed the default window manager and desktop environment and installed i3-wm instead.
03:54:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you can customize everything
03:54:29 <hppavilion[1]> My mind has been blown. Unfortunately, they don't have IRC in hell, so...
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03:54:51 <adu> you can choose: window manager, themes, panels, widgets, backgrounds, colors
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03:55:08 <adu> the only thing you can't choose is the widget toolkit, the app chooses that
03:55:48 <adu> so if you have a Gtk app, it uses Gtk, forever!
03:55:57 <adu> if you have a Qt app, then it will always use Qt
03:56:36 <zzo38> I just went into aptitude and told it to install i3-wm and uninstall the other stuff, and then when I started X next time, it just worked; I did not need to do anything else. However, I did later configure it so that the setting and so on are changed, although it worked even without that.
03:57:02 <\oren\> I generally use either LXDE or XFCE
03:57:10 <adu> hppavilion[1]: you can choose: window manager, themes, panels, widgets, backgrounds, colors
03:57:41 <\oren\> however, right now I'm using Windows 7
03:58:05 <zzo38> adu: Yes, I know, I like the Athena widgets but Firefox is not using them
03:58:22 <\oren\> i.e. the last windows before Microsoft dove into satan's mouth
03:58:29 <adu> Firefox has it's own themes
03:59:03 <adu> I think because it's toolkit is XUL
03:59:07 <zzo38> Firefox is using XUL, I think
03:59:23 <\oren\> there is not toolkit. there is only XUL
03:59:30 <adu> it's not really a toolkit, but it plays a similar role
03:59:49 <zzo38> But is there the way to code XUL overlays or whatever, in order to change how scrollbars act and so on?
04:00:04 <zzo38> So that it can be made to work like Athena scrollbars.
04:00:18 <adu> definitely
04:00:31 <adu> but most themes do boring stuff like change the background :P
04:01:26 <hppavilion[1]> I should probably back things up before I do this xD
04:02:35 <zzo38> With about:config, Classic Theme Restorer, userChrome.css, and userChrome.js, you can do a lot more than just changing the background; I have done many thing
04:02:54 <adu> hppavilion[1]: Cygwin or MinGW
04:03:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, although I think not using built-in software. I have used 7-Zip. First you create the .tar by something like "7z a file.tar @ziplist" or whatever, and then "7z a file.tar.gz file.tar" I think.
04:03:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: there's probably a simpler way with like WinTar or 7-Zip or something
04:03:56 <zzo38> I know 7-Zip supports those formats, although I have not used it to create .tar.gz, only to open them.
04:05:39 <zzo38> I have created .tar.gz only on Linux systems, where the command is: tar c `cat ziplist` | gzip
04:05:53 <zzo38> And then to extract it the command is: zcat | tar x
04:06:42 <adu> zzo38: I usually do $(tar -czf ...) to create and $(tar -xzf ...) to extract
04:08:28 <adu> hppavilion[1]: but I think that requires that you have libz installed, which requires a decent environment, which requires either Cygwin or MinGW
04:08:57 <zzo38> GNU tar supports a lot of options, although I only ever use the "c", "t", and "x" options; most of the others seem worthless to me.
04:09:24 <hppavilion[1]> "To defuse the bomb, please enter a valid tar command on your first try"
04:12:08 <zzo38> To me, the pipes are the way it should be done; all of program should be acting as a filter, and then each program has a different function, such as one for archive and one for compression. Many programs don't do that but some do, including the ones I wrote (such as "amigamml" and "playmod").
04:12:57 <adu> zzo38: agreed, but it's so inconsistent that way
04:14:18 <adu> zzo38: because then you have to know the command line options for gzip, bzip2, xzip, 7z, etc, or you can just use a single extra letter with tar, much simpler imho
04:15:15 <zzo38> Well, maybe. Although the default settings for gzip and zcat and tar seem working well enough?
04:15:43 <adu> $(tar xzf ...) also works, but it has the disadvantage of being compliant to tar history, but violates POSIX's own parameter guidelines
04:18:32 <zzo38> My program "amigamml" does not even support any command-line options; argc/argv are ignored. The output of amigamml is accepted as the input of playmod and the output of playmod is accepted as the input of aplay or sox so you can easily join them together in this way!
04:20:37 <zzo38> I have seen many different command-lines used with tar, although I would have omitted the "z" and "f" options if I had designed it by myself.
04:29:07 <zzo38> It is a program to make .MOD and .XM music files
04:29:31 <zzo38> Many other programs exist, but I didn't find any of the others very good so I made up my own
04:36:47 <\oren\> hmmm what characters should I add to my font next?
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05:18:27 <b_jonas> \oren\: still saying you should add rotated/mirrored variant glyphs for those punctuation characters that require it
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05:58:12 <HackEgo> danddreclist 69: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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06:02:49 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I mean the minimum stuff the site needs to support -_-
06:29:20 <kallisti> http://imgs.xkcd.com/blag/rms_katana.jpg
06:46:35 <\oren\> b_jonas: there, vertical things!
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06:52:30 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if Randall Munroe has ever considered doing a long, continuitous storyline.
07:19:50 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um are you not familiar with Time
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08:55:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Radixal!!!!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44835&oldid=43920 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Computational class */ link
08:57:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44836&oldid=44613 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Goal */ case
09:00:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] to [[Introduction to esolang design]]: The case is wrong, WRONG
09:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to esolang design]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44838&oldid=44837 * Oerjan * (+5) Less caps, more links
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10:32:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44839&oldid=44448 * Oerjan * (-12) links, grm, case
10:39:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44840&oldid=44770 * Oerjan * (+0) order
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12:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMBF]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44841 * SuperJedi224 * (+38) Redirected page to [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]]
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13:04:41 <int-e> http://www.lispcast.com/img/typing.png is cute
13:05:45 <int-e> is there a scheme or lisp with hindley-milner typing?
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13:32:18 <Taneb> int-e: typed racket maybe?
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13:53:07 <int-e> Taneb: looks good, thanks
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13:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3var]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44842&oldid=41125 * LegionMammal978 * (-10) minor fixes
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14:38:38 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points -2.76, score 17.72, rank 28/47 (+11)
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14:59:08 <alyyy> hey peeps. is there a way I can download the entire esolang wiki? like a site backup?
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15:16:04 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/HYDRA%200005B%20Commands.pdf
15:16:22 <Lyka> make any sense?
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15:52:47 <\oren\> is there a Lisp with Forth-style untyping?
15:57:13 <bender|> how do you set the values of a[1] and a[2]?
15:57:30 <bender|> If I understand you correctly, a[1-3] are kind of like registers, right?
15:58:45 <Lyka> um...they are read from file
15:59:13 <bender|> Oh, I'm sorry, can I have some background on this?
15:59:42 <Lyka> some background: i asked here by mistake
16:00:55 <\oren\> OH god damn it mom, it is your "macbook air" not your "baby computer". it did not come from two imacs fucking.
16:01:50 <\oren\> tech support for family members is irritating. hi quintopia
16:01:56 <quintopia> i see david_werecat wants to get back in the game
16:06:22 <FreeFull> \oren\: No, she's saying it's meant for babies
16:07:59 <\oren\> hmm... no, it would have to be waterproof and bale to be thrown repeatedly across the room for that
16:08:51 <int-e> . o O ( quintopia is taking #esoteric customs to ##math? )
16:08:57 <\oren\> I once threw my gameboy into the Pacific Ocean and retrieved it, it still worked
16:09:25 <quintopia> ive taken them everywhere for people i like
16:10:04 <int-e> astonishingly often, mathematics.
16:10:16 <int-e> (highschool level, mostly)
16:10:40 <\oren\> I see. my dad teaches that
16:11:04 <\oren\> (he teaches the remdial calculus for people who didn't take it in high school)
16:11:50 <\oren\> It's crazy how many people don't take calculus in high school and then choose a major that needs calculus
16:11:52 <int-e> . o O ( rem-dial looks too much like a real thing )
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16:13:20 <int-e> Hmm, IIRC my comp sci curriculum was virtually free of calculus...
16:13:56 <Taneb> int-e, mine definitely is
16:14:09 <\oren\> I took advanced calculus and topology and number theory just beacasue I thought I'd do well in them, they weren't required
16:14:09 <int-e> (there was linear algebra, some combinatorics, abstract algebra, logic, a bit of number theory...)
16:14:25 <Taneb> A lot of statistics in mine
16:14:59 <\oren\> yah. statistics sometimes turns into calculus though
16:15:36 <int-e> Hmm I'm not sure how the machine learning people dealt with the lack of calculus.
16:15:45 <Taneb> There's some "knowing differential calculus kind of helps" in the optimization module I'm doing now, but that's in maths, not CS
16:17:13 <\oren\> in my machine learning course they gave you the integrals you needed
16:17:35 <\oren\> (in one case the answer sheet had it wrong, however)
16:17:38 <quintopia> once i got more into theoretical cs in my masters, calculus was marginally more useful
16:18:06 <quintopia> (calc was required for undergrad, but not diffeq. i still dont know diffeq)
16:18:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[3var]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44843&oldid=44842 * LegionMammal978 * (-1) /* Language Overview */
16:20:14 <\oren\> anyway it's hard to get anywhere with stats on continuous distributions without using the fact that a distribution is something you integrate to get a value
16:21:28 <\oren\> This is something I had to expain recently to my best friend who is taking statistical mechanics
16:23:09 <\oren\> a distribution on x is a function f(x) such that f(x) is between 0 and 1 and if you integrate it over all x you get 1. to get the average of any expression of x like g(x) you integrate g(x)f(x)
16:27:13 <\oren\> this is apparently not covered in the basic stats course. idiots
16:27:32 <\oren\> luckily i took advanced stats
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16:56:42 <\oren\> hmm ︻ looks like a mouth open in horror
16:56:58 <\oren\> or maybe just the way I drew it
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17:14:38 <zzo38> I thought of some idea of Magic: the Gathering card: Whenever ~ would be destroyed (whether by a state-based effect or otherwise) while there are any -1/-1 counters on it, instead remove a -1/-1 counter from ~ (do not remove any marked damage).
17:21:42 <shachaf> Taneb: It's replaced with the name of the card.
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17:50:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: do you have the mirrored parenthesis and question mark too?
17:50:59 <b_jonas> though probably that's less important because you won't be writing arabic with this font
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17:52:15 <b_jonas> \oren\: vertical quotation marks. nice.
17:52:37 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, isn't there a vertical version of the Chinese comma and period too, used in some language?
17:53:02 <b_jonas> \oren\: and where's the vertical kana long vowel mark?
17:53:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: definitely do the vertical long vowel mark. you can't write vertical text without that.
17:56:57 <\oren\> Oh. Yeah I'll add vertical period and comma. Also I'm adding the Deseret and Shavian alphabets
17:59:58 <\oren\> I'm taking a short break from adding nothing but kanji
18:00:00 <b_jonas> \oren\: apparently there are multiple different placements of the full stop in vertical writing, for some of mainland Chinese, Taiwan Chinese, Japanese. Some of these may coincide with the horizontal writing comma.
18:00:21 <b_jonas> But the vertical long vowel mark is the most important, I think
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18:00:34 <b_jonas> because you often see it in advertizments
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18:02:48 <\oren\> I should also add the ideographic description characters
18:02:57 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, it's rare but easy to draw, so add the " " (fullwidth space, for Chinese script)
18:09:38 <Taneb> Why is that called ord?
18:10:04 <myname> because asc is what everbody would've guessed?
18:10:06 <b_jonas> Taneb: I think it's a tradition, that's what it's called in pascal too. the alternative is ASC which is horribl
18:10:17 <b_jonas> because Char isn't necessarily an ascii character
18:10:47 <b_jonas> \oren\: the vertical ellipsis ⋮ , I think it should go down below the descender, spread out more
18:11:04 <b_jonas> \oren\: that character is used to indicate more rows in a table or matrix for example
18:12:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: and your ⟦ look wrong. it should be a double vertical line with just a single horizontal line, which in a proportional font looks similar to two overlapping [ horizontally offset from each other
18:12:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's used in some maths or compsci writing as a delimiter
18:13:48 <newsham> is remedial calculus anything like remedial differential geometry?
18:18:03 <\oren\> I'm not sure how similar. I've never taken differentiol geometry, and I've only ever graded, not taken, remedial calculus
18:18:28 <\oren\> (one year my dad's TA's were more incompetent than usual)
18:20:41 <\oren\> so I got roped in to help grade 150 or so exams
18:21:50 <\oren\> b_jonas: got it. I'll adjust those characters
18:25:35 <\oren\> seriously though, at York University sometimes people don't get their grades back until a few months into the next term
18:27:29 <fizzie> At my old university, there was technically a guaranteed 30-day SLA in getting exam grades.
18:27:33 <fizzie> But it was broken quite often.
18:28:11 <Taneb> \oren\, York University?
18:28:24 <Taneb> Would you believe I'm at a university with an almost identical name?
18:28:29 <Taneb> (University of York)
18:30:50 <\oren\> Heh. my dad went to a confusing conference there once
18:31:16 <Taneb> There's someone in the CS department here who is a professor here and also at York University
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18:44:20 <b_jonas> questino, in http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?International+Radiotelephony+Spelling+Alphabet for the 156 byte post-mortem leading solution of teebee(llhuii), why is -ray double-quoted? would it break something later if it wasn't quoted?
18:44:30 <b_jonas> this is perl, so -ray evaluates to "-ray" just fine
18:45:10 <b_jonas> though it might not actually be shorter because the omeo uses the letter m that's already there
18:45:56 <b_jonas> but that would let the first line end in omeo,
18:46:31 <b_jonas> then the next line would start with probably mebec followed by something
18:47:47 <b_jonas> I should try to see if I can shorten it this way, but since it's post-mortem, feel free to do it faster.
18:52:21 <b_jonas> ... not that I haven't had my share of pointlessly losing a character in a golf for quoting something that needn't be quoted
19:03:06 <izabera> i'm trying to complete a codeeval challenge in bash but it's timing out
19:03:36 <izabera> the challenge is this https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/42/
19:03:46 <izabera> and this is my code http://arin.ga/yeBjHx/raw
19:03:57 <izabera> is the algorithm terribly inefficient?
19:05:31 <b_jonas> izabera: or you have a bug?
19:11:44 <izabera> can you find any example that produces an incorrect result? :\
19:14:33 <tswett> I think I've been working on this programming language of mine for... several weeks now?
19:14:49 <tswett> It's finally at the point where you can define some stuff.
19:14:53 <tswett> For example, the number three:
19:15:00 <tswett> three = succ (succ (succ zero))
19:15:08 <tswett> And an add-two function:
19:15:14 <tswett> add_two x = succ (succ x)
19:15:31 <tswett> And for something super fancy, here's something that takes two numbers and returns the first one, two plus the second, and three plus the first:
19:15:35 <izabera> tswett: is it called peano? :P
19:15:49 <tswett> fancy (x,y) = (x, succ (succ y), succ (succ (succ x)))
19:16:07 <tswett> izabera: sump'm like that.
19:17:46 <tswett> `swedish fancy (x,y) = (x, succ (succ y), succ (succ (succ x)))
19:17:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swedish: not found
19:18:52 <tswett> Where did the swedifier go?
19:19:18 <tswett> Maybe it conflicts with the autowelcomer.
19:19:27 <tswett> `swedish fancy (x,y) = (x, succ (succ y), succ (succ (succ x)))
19:19:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swedish: not found
19:22:45 <tswett> So now I'm working on making it so you can define addition.
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19:31:11 <tswett> Hey everyone. I want to buy something from someone over the Internet. She only takes PayPal for payment; I don't feel keen on getting a PayPal account.
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19:39:20 <zemhill> david_werecat.lirtle: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-15)
19:39:40 <zemhill> david_werecat.xurtle: points 0.33, score 20.56, rank 16/47
19:40:35 <myname> as a german, i am okay with it
19:41:22 <myname> every line should be a single word
19:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> I seem to have arranged my taskbar by both use and, secondarily, by complexness of the program
19:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Yep, pretty much. How would it work though...
19:49:05 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps entire objects could be encoded into something resembling a name?
19:49:17 <hppavilion[1]> Or you could create a new object by modifying an old one?
19:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> dog_with_speech would create the "Magical talking dog" object/class
19:51:33 <rdococ> I imagine something like english
19:51:57 <rdococ> you would use a noun and then adjectives to characterize the object
19:52:24 <rdococ> e.g. talking orange, or fat chicken
19:54:39 <rdococ> I want it to be like real english
19:55:12 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes, but the idea was to base it on German.
19:55:56 <myname> you could say "talk of the chicken"
19:58:00 <rdococ> yay you inspired its creation
19:58:37 <rdococ> I had the idea of negative files that removed data
19:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> It doesn't so much remove data as replace data though in this case
20:01:50 <rdococ> a programming language that is very very very high level
20:02:12 <myname> do what i want with this graph
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20:03:16 <tswett> myname: I don't have to what?
20:04:23 <rdococ> maybe a programming language with only a single instruction that has no parameters
20:05:57 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I've thought of that. If it's TC and lacks parentheses, you can encode any program as a number of instructions
20:06:07 <hppavilion[1]> If it does have parentheses, you're thinking about iota
20:06:29 <rdococ> I already kind of thought of it though
20:07:58 <hppavilion[1]> I hate that all the instructions for getting a GCC cross-compiler (at least on OSDev.org) are targetted solely at linux users
20:08:13 <hppavilion[1]> They have a few sections on what to do on windows, but nothing for the important parts
20:12:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to build https://github.com/thepowersgang/rust-barebones-kernel on windows 10, but the instructions are exclusively for *nix
20:12:53 <rdococ> trying to think of new esoteric languages is boring
20:13:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to install Ubuntu later today, but I can't right now because I haven't backed up my drive yet
20:13:33 <rdococ> especially when my brain compels me to make user friendly languages
20:15:07 <myname> it's not about being user unfriendly, it's all about the concept
20:16:34 <myname> i like the idea someone mentioned here a while ago
20:17:05 <myname> making a language that can solve all the standard problems
20:17:32 <myname> or accessing an array index
20:18:10 <myname> fibonacci, truth machine, ...
20:18:23 <rdococ> imagine a programming language where the interpreters are people
20:18:23 <hppavilion[1]> I think implementing HQ9 should be a standard problem
20:18:32 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, you want to be able to actually code in it
20:18:48 <rdococ> you'd be able to talk with the interpreter
20:18:48 <hppavilion[1]> Well if you can code into it, addition is possible, if in a roundabout way
20:19:17 <myname> hppavilion[1]: the question is: in what way?
20:20:07 <myname> personally, i wouldn't count that as standard problem
20:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> myname: But if you can actually code in it, there'll be a way to do it
20:20:53 <myname> but the question isn how?
20:21:27 <myname> what problems do you need to use in what way to actually add numbers
20:21:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: like set theory but for lists?
20:22:05 <hppavilion[1]> I kind of want to make a series where I incrementally develop a Social Network from scratch
20:23:05 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: would it admit infinite lists, or only finite ones?
20:23:58 <rdococ> lists are just ordered tuplets right?
20:24:16 <rdococ> unless you mean unordered lsits
20:25:00 <tswett> Man, this neural net of mine is generating some nice words.
20:25:24 <rdococ> that just gave me a dirty idea
20:25:51 <rdococ> a language that has something to do with - well - stuff
20:26:29 <tswett> You know. I didn't like his butt, so I debutted him.
20:27:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello, world!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44844&oldid=42075 * 92.204.69.55 * (-13) updated link to the Hello World Collection
20:27:39 <HackEgo> alkueilla puuhallesi liutuvakolmeija hupeestäni ahnaani hidastanillanta kaunoillä johdattamme röyhimoillemistämänä pikarkaloksi koteksin hiippumiinnostoimi saavana jumistä tuvillammaltamini kilpaamintoivasta ruhoiduttavilta kimeävin hytkyväksetuimiänne vuoltaksenne
20:28:09 <tswett> Whelp, I can't tell you for sure that any one of those is not a Finnish word.
20:28:17 <tswett> Though "kaunoillä" seems pretty unlikely.
20:28:33 <HackEgo> exológico stvesta fermo lauro potz embus ethyricos hete chouia cnuidad ento fricas var trís queseabanció tronl dommiquema raditá pallc íntique
20:28:37 <fizzie> Yes, it brakes the vowel harmony rules pretty badly.
20:28:42 <tswett> "stvesta" is definitely not a Spanish word.
20:29:11 <HackEgo> oflor bonnanzavit alcoteur imhospecult gouvresi beek conses illa surdiro ron cuttori annem supermin mode nœgustrando celly neautdr scavandi pures rationnné
20:29:13 <fizzie> "hupeestäni", "kaunoillä", "jumistä" are all arguably invalid because of that.
20:29:14 <tswett> I find the Spanish words much less convincing than the Finnish words.
20:29:34 <tswett> To my eyes, "saavana" is a pretty good one.
20:29:49 <fizzie> "puuhallesi", "ahnaani" and "saavana" at least are perfectly normal words.
20:29:57 <rdococ> the french words look even less convincing to me... but it might just be my bad understanding of french
20:30:16 <tswett> I think "íntique" seems like a pretty interesting Spanish word. Kind of strange, but also completely plausible.
20:30:55 <tswett> How about some Swedish Chef?
20:31:13 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
20:31:39 <tswett> `words --canadian-english-insane 20
20:31:41 <HackEgo> revet flandly coning jointo sapperpur doon periardial counda equela eccescrify undedusan poweremend pac ackstomycosmoi prection comotier theospaioranne unsligh tealonegalization arca
20:31:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Phone]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44845 * Rdococ * (+228) Small article as usual *yawn*
20:31:59 <fizzie> You probably can unsligh someone.
20:32:22 <fizzie> Or I guess it would be 'unslight'.
20:33:23 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, both would be possible. I think admitting infinite lists would make the theory significantly more interesting.
20:33:38 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some other DS we could do weird things about?
20:33:46 <tswett> Remind me what a DS is?
20:34:15 <fizzie> I have a Nintendo Data Structure Lite somewhere.
20:34:19 <tswett> A function is just a key–value map that's permitted to have infinitely many pairs.
20:34:53 <tswett> So hey, let's come up with some axioms!
20:35:09 <tswett> There's a predicate is_empty.
20:35:19 <tswett> There's exactly one list x such that is_empty(x).
20:35:50 <tswett> There's also a predicate is_head(x,y) and is_tail(x,y).
20:36:40 <tswett> Lemme phrase these next couple axioms a little more loosely.
20:36:56 <tswett> The empty list has no head and no tail. Every other list has exactly one head and exactly one tail.
20:37:08 <tswett> Further more, given lists x and y, there's exactly one list whose head is x and whose tail is y.
20:37:25 <rdococ> A basic data structure is a just a set of keys
20:38:04 <int-e> lock-oriented programming
20:38:20 <rdococ> A basic data structure is a just a set of keys from which maps can be created mapping each key to a value, called objects
20:38:43 <int-e> (keys should be mapped to keyholes)
20:39:02 <tswett> int-e: I was hoping that you meant mutex-oriented programming.
20:39:08 <rdococ> An object is a map that maps the elements in a data structure
20:39:11 <tswett> Al dente is based on a model of concurrency!
20:40:50 <tswett> It's a pretty unusual programming language.
20:40:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44846 * Hppavilion1 * (+287) Created Page (will fill out when we've finished inventing it)
20:41:03 <tswett> Like, with most programming languages, nothing really happens except what you specify.
20:41:18 <tswett> Like, in Python, if you declare a boolean variable, the value of that variable isn't going to spontaneously change.
20:41:22 <tswett> Al Dente isn't like that at all.
20:42:04 <tswett> In Al Dente, everything just happens spontaneously, and your program restricts the manner in which it can happen.
20:42:45 <int-e> Hmm, it lacks pasta-eating philosophers
20:43:05 <rdococ> A data structure is just a set of keys and functions.
20:43:34 <tswett> A data structure is just data satisfying a given structure.
20:43:44 <fizzie> int-e: Who deadlock obtaining their forks?
20:44:08 <rdococ> My boredom satisfies x > n for any n in R.
20:44:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44847&oldid=44846 * Hppavilion1 * (+244) Primitives
20:45:18 <int-e> fizzie: yeah, those
20:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44848&oldid=44847 * Hppavilion1 * (+258) Other predicates
20:48:32 <hppavilion[1]> For some reason, I automatically mark all my edits as minor.
20:49:33 <rdococ> stupid hackego not giving me a link to the article itself
20:49:49 <hppavilion[1]> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Hppavilion1/List_Theory
20:50:15 <int-e> rdococ: you can use the link, then click on the "Page" "tab"?
20:50:57 <rdococ> uh oh the yays are contagious YAY
20:51:16 <int-e> which is bad UI design: clicking on the "active" tab goes to a different page than the active one...
20:51:40 <tswett> A combination of antics. Attorney.
20:51:59 <rdococ> uh oh, my use of the word delicion has spread
20:52:11 <tswett> I'm pretty sure "contagions" is in fact a real word.
20:52:17 <tswett> Correctly spelled, even.
20:52:28 <tswett> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/contagions
20:52:38 <rdococ> oh wait... that's real
20:52:49 <int-e> rdococ: I think you made uo "delicions", but got lucky with "infections"
20:53:29 <int-e> Hmm, "uo"... why do keyboards come with adjacent keys... this just invites spelling errors like that one.
20:54:14 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: depends; there are a lot of set theories. ZFC is the most popular one.
20:54:24 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zermelo%E2%80%93Fraenkel_set_theory
20:55:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44849&oldid=44848 * Hppavilion1 * (+175) Axiom #1
20:55:05 <tswett> Let the music carry you. Maybe I will follow you forever.
20:55:17 <tswett> There's nowhere else I'd rather be.
20:55:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, I gave you a few above.
20:56:07 <tswett> I think if you just add an unfolding axiom, you'll be pretty good.
20:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> I listed the predicates empty, is_head, and is_tail. I also discussed the head and tail of the empty list
20:56:47 <tswett> Wait, lemme think how this is gonna work.
20:56:51 <tswett> Okay, maybe two things.
20:57:28 <tswett> First, say that if you have a function f from a list to maybe-a-list, as well as a list x, then there's a list that goes like [x, f(x), f(f(x)), f(f(f(x))), ...], stopping once f decides to return not-a-list.
20:57:57 <tswett> You know what, that one's probably sufficient. I don't think you'd need the second one.
20:58:03 <tswett> But I'll tell you what the second one is anyway.
20:58:21 <rdococ> a list is just a key-value map with one to one correspondence and numerical keys
20:58:51 <tswett> No, actually, the second one is bogus.
20:59:03 <zemhill> david_werecat.atom: points -2.76, score 17.68, rank 30/47 (+17)
20:59:28 <tswett> Now, you'll also want to have a definition of what a finite list is.
20:59:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44850&oldid=44849 * Hppavilion1 * (+328) Added two more axioms
20:59:57 <tswett> I think you can pretty much define that using induction.
21:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'll try to figure this out myself from here on out
21:00:42 <int-e> what if f never returns not-a-list...
21:00:46 <fizzie> That +17 looks a bit suspicious.
21:00:55 <tswett> The empty list is finite. If the tail of a list is finite, then the list is finite. If a property holds for the empty list, and the property holds for a list whenever it holds for the list's tail, then the property holds for every finite list.
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21:00:59 <tswett> int-e: then the list goes on forever.
21:01:08 <tswett> One more thing you might want to add. A well-foundedness axiom.
21:01:23 <tswett> I think this axiom will do the trick perfectly well—I'm about 60% sure.
21:02:05 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:05 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:06 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:06 <tswett> For every list, the list [x, head(x), head(head(x)), ...] (defined using that "unfolding axiom") is finite.
21:02:06 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:06 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:08 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:10 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:13 <\oren\> ................................
21:02:47 <int-e> tswett: hmm, I'd rather have an inductively defined list type (which means, finite lists only) and get a nice induction principle in return
21:03:11 <tswett> But I asserted that a theory admitting infinite lists would probably be more interesting.
21:03:12 <\oren\> i'm trying to copypaste the deseret and shavian alphabets but it doesnt work!
21:03:12 <int-e> (rather than a coinduction principle... from what I've seen those tend to be quite unwieldy)
21:03:24 <\oren\> ................................
21:04:30 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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21:05:21 <tswett> "housebreed", "pumperwoman", "exaggedistic"
21:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call the section where I figure out finite lists?
21:05:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: "Finite lists"?
21:06:08 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: But won't I want to talk about other things there?
21:06:21 <tswett> "Finite and infinite lists", then?
21:06:47 <hppavilion[1]> I would say the whole section should be based on things that are figured out from the axioms, but I don't know what the term for that is...
21:08:09 <tswett> "Derivations", "constructions", "theorems", "consequences"?
21:08:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44851&oldid=44850 * Hppavilion1 * (+18) One last axiom. On well-foundedness.
21:09:00 <tswett> Is it pronounced like "butterfood", or like "butterfeud"?
21:09:09 <int-e> rdococ: I think you've made your point.
21:09:25 <\oren\> or maybe one lemon, two lemma
21:10:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/List Theory]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44852&oldid=44851 * Hppavilion1 * (+43) Constructions section
21:11:49 <int-e> (aka bending reality)
21:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> I request that http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lazy_evaluation is filled out
21:26:04 <int-e> that would rather spoil the joke
21:27:09 <rdococ> but he requested it so you must
21:27:16 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
21:27:42 <int-e> rdococ: we can still raise an async exception to save the day
21:27:49 <rdococ> unless you found some kind of super lazy evaluation
21:28:01 <rdococ> should I call it super lazy or ultra lazy?
21:28:31 <int-e> rdococ: why don't you postpone the decision
21:28:49 <hppavilion[1]> If we have that page, esolangs.org/wiki/Strict_Evaluation needs to be made for completeness
21:29:03 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I would say that super- and ultra- should be different things
21:29:27 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: hmm, would it be a stack overflow while fetching contents of the strict evaluation page?
21:29:39 <rdococ> in my idea, super-lazy evaluation allows you to interact with things WITHOUT evaluating them
21:30:09 <rdococ> e.g. x = f() -- imagine this is five; y = x+2 -- still not evaluated; print(y) -- now it's evaluated
21:30:58 <int-e> rdococ: isn't that just plain lazy evaluation though...
21:31:01 <hppavilion[1]> So it's only evaluated when it's literally impossible not to?
21:31:11 <rdococ> int-e: I don't think so
21:31:33 <hppavilion[1]> int-e: I think in lazy, x would be evaluated at x+2
21:31:35 <int-e> > let x = undefined in let y = x + 2 in "Hello, " ++ show y ++ "world!"
21:31:37 <lambdabot> "Hello, *Exception: Prelude.undefined
21:33:04 <rdococ> now in Hyper Lazy Evaluation...
21:33:33 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It isn't evaluated until it reaches your brain
21:34:13 <rdococ> in hyper lazy evaluation, it isn't evaluated, ever, at all, until you force the computer at gun point to do it
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21:34:38 <int-e> . o O ( A hyper-lazy universe collapses the instant it is observed... )
21:35:00 <rdococ> how do we get the value without evaluating it?
21:35:17 <rdococ> also, should preferably take less computation than actually evaluating it
21:35:28 <rdococ> but the expression is not the value...
21:35:51 <int-e> or just print "IOU"
21:36:20 <rdococ> maybe hyper lazy evaluation isn't such a good idea
21:36:27 <hppavilion[1]> Should I allow graph rewriting in ArbourDB? I don't see how it'd work, but it's cool...
21:36:35 <int-e> (actually now it sounds like a promise... a kind of future value... those are genuinely useful in concurrent programming)
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21:39:13 <rdococ> would y = x + 2; evaluate x in normal lazy evaluation?
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21:39:59 <fizzie> THINK-A-TRON, the machine that thinks like a man.
21:40:03 <fizzie> https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAU256S3YtRUVIQWc
21:40:58 <rdococ> does it actually think like a man, or is it predetermined/calculated?
21:41:10 <fizzie> Ah, but isn't that how a man thinks?
21:42:05 <rdococ> predetermined? calculated? I smell something deviously fishy
21:42:25 <rdococ> does this judgement have anything to do with gender?
21:43:55 <fizzie> At least for THINK-A-TRON, I do believe they're using 'man' to refer to both genders.
21:44:20 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's overly binary too. All people.
21:44:56 <Taneb> I was going to ask
21:48:10 <rdococ> does y = x + 2; evaluate in a lazy environment?
22:03:54 <b_jonas> it's fun to read discussion about maths and M:tG mixed. can be confusing when they talk about "permanent" which means a completely different thing in the two.
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22:10:37 <Taneb> rdococ: only when y is evaluated
22:13:25 <\oren\> are there any cards in MtG that take effect when they are drawn?
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22:55:09 <\oren\> idea: when data integrity is assured by other means, e.g. checksums or hashes, one can use a unicode encoding which, unlike utf-8, uses all possible sequences of high bytes
22:56:21 <hppavilion[1]> It's interesting that we measure quantities of data in the number of digits it takes to represent it in an obscure counting system few people use, divided by 8, divided by 1024 to the power of a multiple of 3.
22:57:59 <\oren\> Eg. use utf-8, except that instead using only bytes 80-BF for continuation, use 80-FF
22:58:44 <\oren\> and similarly, alter the start bytes so that all bytes 80-FF are valid start bytes
23:01:02 <hppavilion[1]> I want at least digraphs, undigraphs, and their hyper- equivalents. Should I include the multi- equivalents of these?
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23:20:11 <FireFly> hppavilion[1]: are you sure you meant 1024 to the power of a multilpe of 3? 10 to the power of a multiple of 3 would make more sense
23:20:24 <FireFly> (or just 1024 to an integer power, or 1000 to an integer power)
23:20:47 <fizzie> Or 2 to the power of a multiple of 10.
23:20:49 <hppavilion[1]> FireFly: Not when you're dealing with data. The 3 is from metric.
23:22:29 <fizzie> 1024 to the power of a multiple of 3 means you only speak of bytes, gigabytes and exabytes, none of the intermediate units.
23:25:03 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: you mean bytes, kilobytes, megabytes, and gigabytes?
23:25:27 <hppavilion[1]> I mean 1024**(3*x) where x is a natural number (including 0)
23:25:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Yes, and 1024^0 is bytes, 1024^3 is gigabytes and 1024^6 is exabytes.
23:25:49 <fizzie> Then they don't have names anymore.
23:26:38 <fizzie> Or, if you want the multiples, 2^(10n).
23:27:29 <hppavilion[1]> Should I create a category for data types, under which we will include things like STIB
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23:33:22 <\oren\> Yeah. so it's actually very easy to make a format that uses up to 3 bytes to represent all unicdoe characters
23:33:59 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/utf-8ns.htm
23:38:38 <\oren\> basically if you use all 128 high-bit charaters as coninuation bytes, then you only need 68 start bytes to cover all the planes
23:39:39 <fizzie> Well, I mean, sure, but you could also just use a normal base-128 number (with one bit to indicate first/continuation), which gives you 21 bits of payload when going <= 3 bytes.
23:40:39 <fizzie> As in, normal VLQ encoding.
23:41:27 <fizzie> (Also seen as the Google protobuf varint encoding, and in many many other places.)
23:41:37 <\oren\> yes but that wouldn't be ascii compatible I don't think
23:42:04 <fizzie> To clarify the slightly unclear message: you'd have the sign bit off for the last byte, and on for all bytes for which something will still follow.
23:42:20 <fizzie> That's ASCII-compatible, because it encodes 0..127 as one byte, 0..127.
23:43:00 <\oren\> it still has ascii bytes inside non-ascii characters
23:43:17 <\oren\> (same problem as Shift-JIS has)
23:44:22 <\oren\> since there are only 0x10000 characters with the 21'st bit on, I allocated 4 extra start bytes
23:44:58 <izabera> http://plaintextoffenders.com/ what is insecure about sending a new password to someone via email?
23:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> In lack of objection, I'm creating Category:Data Types
23:47:46 <hppavilion[1]> Should I create Category:Data Types and Structures or make them two separate categories?
23:49:00 <hppavilion[1]> I probably shouldn't roll algorithms into it though
23:49:42 <fizzie> izabera: According to the about page, it's supposedly about websites that store your plaintext password (as evidenced by the fact that they can email it to you). I'm not sure how that matches up with all those "here's your newly generated password" email screenshots.
23:49:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Data Types and Structures]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44853 * Hppavilion1 * (+116) Created Category
23:50:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TIB and STIB]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44854&oldid=8425 * Hppavilion1 * (+39) Categorized
23:52:19 <fizzie> izabera: Yeah, I'm not sure how that's majorly different from a "set your initial password with this link" link, although at least that way (if the recipient gets there first) they're less likely to end up permanently having a password that was sent over the wire unencrypted. (If you just set them an initial random password, I'd guess a lot of people leave it at that.)
23:52:55 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, whoops, looks like Data Structures was already a category.
23:53:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tape]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44855&oldid=8046 * Hppavilion1 * (+15) Switched category
23:53:45 <hppavilion[1]> Oh well, I feel it's better to have them as a joint category
23:54:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deque]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44856&oldid=40431 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:54:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44857&oldid=43126 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized (GOD! SOMEONE FIX THIS PAGE!)
23:55:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Queue]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44858&oldid=35376 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:55:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44859&oldid=43097 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:56:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[String]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44860&oldid=13365 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Recategorized
23:57:06 <\oren\> A uniquestring is a data type consisting of a string of bits which does not occur anywhere else in mamory
23:58:39 <\oren\> the hash of a uniquestring can be used to locate it, hence if an object contains a uniquestring, it can be relocated and the hash can be used to find it
00:00:04 <\oren\> however this is only true for hashes the same or greater length than the uniquestring itself
00:01:33 <\oren\> and of course, there needs to be constant monitoring for collisions
00:04:19 <\oren\> hmm anyway uniquestrings are fairly common, for example a here document uses a uniquestring to locate the end
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00:07:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44861 * Hppavilion1 * (+248) Created Page. Now to go figure out how surreal numbers work.
00:07:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:WIP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44862 * Hppavilion1 * (+69) Created Template
00:08:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Works-in-Progress]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44863 * Hppavilion1 * (+35) Created Category
00:17:36 <\oren\> https://savannah.gnu.org/bugs/?26723
00:17:42 <\oren\> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
00:18:00 <\oren\> so that's what was happening!
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00:20:37 <Sgeo__> What's the 4-valued version of a bit?
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00:22:36 <\oren\> so let's see if tmux can handle the astral plane: 𐐀𐐁𐐂𐐃𐐄𐐅𐐆𐐇𐐈𐐉𐐊𐐋𐐌𐐍𐐎𐐏
00:22:43 <\oren\> so let's see if tmux can handle the astral plane: 𐐀𐐁𐐂𐐃𐐄𐐅𐐆𐐇𐐈𐐉𐐊𐐋𐐌𐐍𐐎𐐏
00:22:48 <fizzie> "bibit" doesn't sound too bad either.
00:25:03 <fizzie> (Wikipedia) "By analogy with byte and nybble, a quaternary digit is sometimes called a crumb." I find that a little hard to believe, and there's no citation either.
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00:30:11 <oren> another test 𐑐𐑑𐑒𐑓𐑔𐑕𐑖𐑗𐑘𐑙𐑚𐑛𐑜𐑝𐑞𐑟
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00:31:42 <fizzie> Iä! Iä! Cthulhu fhtagn!
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00:43:24 <hppavilion[1]> And, as a bonus, it doesn't add any new instructions; just a magic cell at index -1.
00:45:29 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, it's just like normal BF (or at least some (theoretical) implementations of it): Unbounded cell values in both directions, right-infinite tape, pointer head starts at 0.
00:45:43 <hppavilion[1]> At -1, there's a magic cell that holds the "divisor"
00:45:56 <hppavilion[1]> It starts at value 1 and can never be decremented below that value
00:46:45 <hppavilion[1]> When you call + or - on any cell, instead of adding or subtracting 1 from it, it adds or subtracts 1/tape[-1]. This allows it to represent ANY rational number in a single cell!
00:48:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44864&oldid=44861 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized
00:48:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Surreal Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44865&oldid=44864 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Recategorized
00:49:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44866&oldid=44796 * Hppavilion1 * (+36) Categorized
00:58:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44867&oldid=44866 * Hppavilion1 * (+554) concurrency, apply to all
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01:08:02 <hppavilion[1]> Oh, and in Rationalfuck (which I will be incorporating into Brainfuck⁂ I think), the + and - commands stay the same on cell -1. So you don't get weird exponential growth errors.
01:11:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44868&oldid=44867 * Hppavilion1 * (+878) Kill, partial ID explanation, implementation specs
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01:21:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to create a programming language using single-character commands by systematically going through unicode and assigning characters meanings
01:23:10 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it's not like I'm going to make every Arabic charactere mean something
01:23:42 <hppavilion[1]> No it isn't. I don't speak arabic, and neither do most programmers.
01:24:07 <izabera> that's racist and you have no evidence to support it
01:25:04 <hppavilion[1]> No, it really isn't. I was using Arabic as an example. I'm not going to make arabic characters mean something because the meanings would be arbitrary, because I don't know what the characters refer to
01:25:25 <hppavilion[1]> I could have easily said Japanese or Mandarin or even English.
01:25:42 <hppavilion[1]> In fact, no letter character will mean something because they're reserved for comments
01:26:21 <izabera> one could argue that any meaning you're going to assign to any character will be arbitrary
01:26:46 <hppavilion[1]> Continuing from earlier, "Or more accurately, every character will either be assigned a value, be reserved for comments, or be a "Temporary NOP"
01:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: However, I don't see how saying that I'm not going to assign every Arabic character a meaning is racist. I'm not, because there are a lot of them and I don't know what they mean and they have no real meaning as a single character, from what I understand about Arabic (it's like English in that words are multi-character)
01:29:48 <hppavilion[1]> I have nothing against anyone from the Middle East (well, that's not accurate, I have something against the terrorists in the middle east, but everyone else I'm fine with)
01:31:40 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/43/ why is 4 1 4 2 3 jolly?
01:34:05 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiocular_O
01:35:08 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Well most likely, it will be a Comment Character in case anyone speaks Cyrillic when programming and wants to write a comment
01:35:27 <hppavilion[1]> (I could alternatively make #..\n commenting work, if that would be a better idea)
01:36:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44869&oldid=44868 * Hppavilion1 * (+99) NOP
01:37:12 <hppavilion[1]> What should the base Data Structure of this "UniLang" be?
01:37:30 <izabera> after reading that wikipedia page my opinion is that the author was bored and decided to draw a made up character
01:38:03 <doesthiswork> the purpose was entirely for eye puns in medeval russia
01:38:34 <izabera> is there a "i with heart" unicode character?
01:39:00 <izabera> that's far more common than the multiocular o
01:39:04 <oren> there's a heart exclamation mark though
01:40:28 <hppavilion[1]> (Also, the officially accepted abbreviation of my name is "hp", as it comes from HP Pavilion computers)
01:41:11 <izabera> i would never have guessed that it comes from hp pavilion computers
01:41:14 <hppavilion[1]> I mean combined data structure; a tape of stacks perhaps?
01:41:15 <shachaf> I had an HP Pavilion laptop once.
01:41:23 <doesthiswork> because it is standard, works well when distributed and hasn't been done before
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01:42:05 <shachaf> Lenovo Thinkpads are scow.
01:42:07 <hppavilion[1]> lenovothinkpad: I used to have an HP, but now I have a Lenovo xD
01:42:14 <shachaf> IBM Thinkpads were much better.
01:42:26 <shachaf> I always assumed HP stood for Higgledy Piggledy.
01:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: Computers are scow. We should all be back in prehistory farming scows.
01:42:37 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
01:43:09 <doesthiswork> yes, but when designing a language the implementation of the base data structure doesn't matter, what matters is what protocol you use to store and retrieve data.
01:43:58 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: The base data structure matters to the programmer, at least when it's a BF family language (not to be confused with a BF derivative)
01:44:11 <izabera> i refuse to believe that SMILING CAT FACE WITH HEART-SHAPED EYES exists but there's no i with heart
01:44:33 <hppavilion[1]> (A BF family language uses short ascii commands and operates on a data structure instead of storing variables)
01:44:57 <hppavilion[1]> (BF family is a much more diverse family than C family
01:45:16 <lenovothinkpad> izabera: I'll add an i with a heart to my font in the private use area
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01:47:32 <hppavilion[1]> I think the reason i with heart isn't included is that it's just an i.
01:47:47 <hppavilion[1]> Though combinining hear diacritic may be a good idea
01:47:53 <doesthiswork> h: when you implement brainfuck the data data structure can be implemented however you want as long as it follows the protocol defined in the bf spec.
01:49:20 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: True, but I'm talking about the way the programmer sees the DS
01:49:31 <\oren\> yeah so 0xf800 will be an I with a heart. i'll but j with a heart as F801
01:49:33 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be a stretch to see BF as using anything but a tape
01:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Make ALL the ascii characters with hearts.
01:50:51 <\oren\> the PUA is from E000 to F8ff
01:51:26 <hppavilion[1]> Why didn't they make it go from something to FFFF?
01:52:02 <\oren\> the area near FFFF is used for halfwidth katakana and wide Ascii characters
01:52:39 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: So what I'm really asking is what should the data structure that the programmer sees be?
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01:53:19 <hppavilion[1]> A tape of stacks? A deque? A Tree of SQL table rows?
01:53:33 <doesthiswork> : esoteric languages are meant to stretch, if you want something like a tape you can use < and > to move to the previous and next location similar to the forward and back buttons on a browser
01:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: But it doesn't /need/ to be a tape. What I'm getting at is what /should/ it be?
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01:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently partial to a Tree of something (possibly maps)
01:55:16 <doesthiswork> http operates on a map, and history becomes a tree of locations in the map
01:55:52 <hppavilion[1]> What if browsing the web was like a spaghetti stack instead of a tree? Or something like that?
01:56:07 <hppavilion[1]> Where you start with many webpages and converge on a single root page
01:59:16 <doesthiswork> if you have an operation to take the value of the current location and make the next pointer point at it, then you can dynamically change the graph
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02:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> (Which is what I call a graph where the vertices have a value
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02:25:08 <tswett> I think I'd call that a "vertex-labeled graph", or a "labeled graph" for short (but that's ambiguous), or a "graph with its vertices labeled" for long.
02:27:43 <FireFly> Hypergraphs seem weird, but I guess they're useful for something
02:28:02 <FireFly> I mean, it seems weird to me to think of it as a kind of graph, rather than just a subset of the powerset of a set
02:31:25 <tswett> A category theorist defines a graph as "a set V, a set E, and two functions from E to V".
02:31:46 <tswett> Replacing "two" with a different number isn't much of a leap.
02:36:08 <tswett> Oh, so I've figured out how to augment my amazing programming language to allow you to define stuff like addition.
02:36:08 <tswett> add(zero, y) = y; add(succ(x), y) = succ(add(x, y));
02:40:37 <tswett> But that's the... anti-abbreviated syntax, so to speak. It hides what's really going on by making stuff more verbose.
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02:43:37 <tswett> Here's a better syntax:
02:43:57 <tswett> add(x, y) = recurse x for {zero -> y; succ -> succ(base)}
02:44:52 <tswett> 'Course, we can define multiplication and exponentiation similarly.
02:45:13 <tswett> mult(x, y) = recurse x for {zero -> zero; succ -> add(base, y)}
02:45:41 <Sgeo__> Is it an ALU even if I don't have a way to select which one I want?
02:46:06 <Sgeo__> Like, if I set A, B, then go, it will give me A&B and A|B (on different lines), but I can't say only do one?
02:46:43 <tswett> exp(x, y) = recurse y for {zero -> succ(zero); succ -> mult(base, x)}
02:47:30 <tswett> Sgeo__: I think I've only seen the term "ALU" used in reference to hardware.
02:48:17 <Sgeo__> Are Activeworlds objects hardware? They're things I'm trying to make primitive logic gates out of, don't have a full fledged programming language
02:48:38 <Sgeo__> But they do seem to support NAND and memory, which I'm trying to make more efficient
02:49:10 <tswett> A simulation of hardware also counts, I suppose.
02:50:42 <Sgeo__> Doesn't quite behave exactly like transistors, though
02:54:23 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make BF⁂ work on a tape-o-stacks, just for fun
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03:10:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44870&oldid=44869 * Hppavilion1 * (+1458) A couple new commands, compounding keywords. Working towards covering all of Basic Latin.
03:12:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44871&oldid=44870 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a command collision
03:19:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cain]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44872 * Hppavilion1 * (+267) Named language. Now to invent it.
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03:22:50 <hppavilion[1]> A blog in which someone has discovered a mysterious program on their computer. They launch it to discover that it's an omnific programming language. They can't send it to anybody, but they can do some /pretty/ powerful things with it. The entire blog serves to entertain, teach some programming concepts, and generally be awesome.
03:24:04 <hppavilion[1]> My current idea has some dark but lighthearted occult themes to it
03:28:40 <Sgeo__> http://i.imgur.com/LbXV9pT.jpg
03:28:49 <Sgeo__> Why is there a 19th floor? There shouldn't be a 19th floor
03:30:06 <Sgeo__> In this show loosely based off the Wayside School books
03:31:13 <tswett> In the books, how is there no 19th floor? Like, what is the way in which it is absent?
03:32:41 <Sgeo__> The builder forgot to build it. (I think exactly what this looks like is a bit unspecified)
03:32:53 <Sgeo__> I think it's numbering, 18th, then 20th
03:33:25 <Sgeo__> Doesn't stop people from wandering into a non-existent classroom with a non-existent teacher, then asked to write down the numbers 1 to 1000000 in alphabetical order
03:33:32 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo__: I'm pretty sure it was the 13th floor that was missing...
03:34:46 <Sgeo__> http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/19th_story
03:34:57 <zzo38> In many builtings they do not have a floor numbered 13 even though they have more floors than that
03:35:14 <tswett> Is there a 31st floor?
03:35:28 <tswett> Or does it stop at 30?
03:35:48 <Sgeo__> The numbering stops at 30 (so it's the 29th floor if numbering included 19)
03:37:05 <Sgeo__> In one of the books, the chapter numbers go 19, 19, 19, "20, 21, 22"
03:37:40 <Sgeo__> Also, there are two elevators, one which only goes up, one which only goes down. Each is only used once.
03:38:08 <tswett> That reminds me of a certain paradox.
03:38:31 <tswett> There were some people who worked in a tall office building, one of them near the top and one of them near the bottom.
03:39:17 <zzo38> I think I read the book relating to Wayside School where there was no problem 19 (which was supposed to be the hardest problem in the book, but the teacher omitted it because one of the students prove that there can be no surprise quiz this week).
03:40:00 <tswett> The one near the top noticed that whenever they went to the elevators to go home for the day, the next elevator to arrive was usually going up.
03:40:10 <tswett> The one near the bottom, on the other hand, noticed that it was usually going down.
03:40:44 <tswett> So if most of the elevators near the top of the building are going up, and most near the bottom of the building are going down, it must be that elevators are being created in the middle of the building and then destroyed at the top and bottom.
03:40:48 <Sgeo__> zzo38, one of the math books. I remember starting to read one, but it started talking about girls' underwear so I got embarrassed and stopped. This was in elementary school I think
03:41:35 <\oren\> should have waited till grade 7 and started again from that point
03:41:41 <tswett> Also, I remember the surprise quiz. I think that book was the one that exposed me to the unexpected hanging paradox.
03:41:47 <tswett> By the way, I have some important arithmetic.
03:41:54 <tswett> > [432/9, 324/9, 243/9]
03:42:31 <tswett> > [432/27, 324/27, 243/27]
03:42:35 <Sgeo__> I guess this one then http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/More_Sideways_Arithmetic_from_Wayside_School
03:42:42 <Sgeo__> http://wayside.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_book_chapters
03:42:55 <lambdabot> [1.3333333333333333,1.3333333333333333]
03:53:38 <doesthiswork> tswett: of course now that we know surprise is measured in shannon information, we could come up with a stochastic procedure that maximized expected surprise even when the procedure is known
03:54:08 <tswett> That would just be produced by using the uniform distribution over days, right?
03:54:29 <tswett> Your total amount of surprise is just the negative log of the prior probability of the day which ended up chosen.
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04:00:29 <doesthiswork> if we maximise anticipation instead then we should sum the expected surprise for each day before the quiz
04:02:01 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4CCCGYyn30
04:03:05 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/77/ -> http://arin.ga/PCXSYB/raw
04:08:13 <tswett> doesthiswork: and exclude surprise the day *of* the quiz?
04:08:47 <tswett> I feel like then it's probably maximized by making there be a 50% chance of having the quiz, each day that it hasn't been had yet.
04:08:55 <tswett> At least, if the school week has infinitely many days.
04:11:29 <hppavilion[1]> Does the Unexpected Hanging Paradox have any relation to Computer Science?
04:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some problem that it contributes to/helps solve?
04:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> And wouldn't it be funny if it was the solution to P vs NP?
04:12:14 <doesthiswork> the reason I say it is silly because anticipation jumps through the roof if you say that the quiz will be sometime /next/ week
04:14:39 <doesthiswork> a school week with an indefinate end is nice solution to the paradox
04:15:11 <tswett> The unexpected hanging paradox is sort of an interesting investigation of "it is provable that" as a logical operator.
04:21:33 <doesthiswork> is there a simple explanation of when "it is provable" can be used as a logical operator without leading to paradoxes?
04:24:59 <zzo38> You would have to make up the rules of "it is provable that" operator, and then it can be usable.
04:26:24 <tswett> IIRC, the unexpected hanging paradox is not a paradox in the mathematical sense.
04:28:00 <shachaf> I don't think there is a mathematical sense of paradox.
04:28:07 <shachaf> It's not a mathematical word.
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00:51:50 <HackEgo> Moths are the main ingredient of mothballs.
00:52:27 <boily> because doesthiswork, tswett and int-e are being silly.
00:52:55 <boily> oh, and ais523 too.
00:53:24 <oerjan> but what did poor doesthiswork do
00:53:25 <ais523> I was just correcting typos IIRC
00:53:50 <tswett> How does Hack know what?
00:53:58 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/mothology
00:54:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'did:': did: didn't
00:55:14 <oerjan> bood what _is_ the proper greeting term in the middle of the night anywaily
00:56:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'did': did : didn't
00:57:07 <FireFly> `` for f in wisdom/*; do culprits $f | grep -q doesthiswork && echo $f; done
00:57:48 <tswett> `learn Bood was a form of currency used among bootleggers during Prohibition in the United States.
00:57:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'bood': Bood was a form of currency used among bootleggers during Prohibition in the United States.
00:59:05 <oerjan> FireFly: possibly culprits is too expensive to run over an entire directory without timeout
00:59:30 <oerjan> (or you may have messed up the command, what do i know)
01:00:16 <oerjan> `` for f in wisdom/mothology; do culprits $f | grep -q doesthiswork && echo $f; done
01:01:52 <oerjan> `` for f in wisdom/mothology; do culprits $f | grep doesthiswork && echo $f; done
01:02:25 <oerjan> `` for f in wisdom/mothology; do echo $f; done
01:03:24 <oerjan> `` for f in wisdom/mothology; do culprits $f; done
01:03:55 <oerjan> `` culprits wisdom/mothology 2>/dev/null
01:04:32 <oerjan> `` for f in wisdom/mothology; do culprits $f | grep doesthiswork ; done
01:04:51 <oerjan> it's the anti-pinging feature
01:05:03 <boily> there's an anti-pinging feature?
01:05:18 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
01:05:34 <FireFly> I should've remembered that
01:05:41 <HackEgo> Jafet Jafet tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
01:07:04 <FireFly> `` for f in wisdom/*; do culprits $f | tr -d $'\x0F' | grep -q doesthiswork && echo $f; done # another attempt, then
01:07:27 <oerjan> we have, alas, two different candidates for that feature, that one is ignored by some clients, the other one messes up shachaf's terminal
01:07:56 <shachaf> It doesn't mess up this terminal.
01:08:02 <FireFly> it does highlight me, though
01:08:07 <shachaf> So while I'm not at work you can use it.
01:08:27 <FireFly> How come your terminal at work doesn't support Unicode anyway?
01:08:34 <FireFly> you'd think terminal emulators in this day and age would
01:08:46 <oerjan> shachaf: there's the slight problem that it's supposed be written once and for all hth
01:09:05 <HackEgo> Mon Oct 26 01:08:56 UTC 2015
01:09:25 <HackEgo> Today is Prickle-Prickle, the 7th day of The Aftermath in the YOLD 3181
01:09:44 <shachaf> FireFly: I don't know, it's the default Mac OS X terminal.
01:12:45 <oerjan> does oren currently ping the person of that name?
01:13:41 <oerjan> ...he's asleep isn't he.
01:14:59 <oerjan> of course shachaf's terminal also messes up on every line HackEgo writes that starts with a non-alphanum.
01:15:26 <shachaf> That also messes that terminal up.
01:15:43 <FireFly> I think something might be wrong with its configuration, then
01:16:15 <oerjan> naturally, because that uses a ZWNS to avoid triggering myndzi
01:16:28 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
01:16:45 <oerjan> not that myndzi is all that triggerable these days.
01:17:16 <fungot> (\o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/)S
01:23:01 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
01:23:29 <HackEgo> list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
01:23:51 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
01:24:13 <FireFly> Unfortunately `list is broken I think
01:24:51 <HackEgo> arrow/Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
01:25:08 <HackEgo> A monoid is the easy version of a category.
01:25:26 <FireFly> with only one object. lame.
01:25:35 <HackEgo> zombiecheney/ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
01:25:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprit: not found
01:26:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprit: not found
01:26:36 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
01:27:18 <boily> (that I will amend some time tomorrow and/or amodné.)
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01:31:47 <HackEgo> U,ØûÎjÊ ?À¾bãJH{nïØ©\Apk)b[4PBáÖºYòwö£`40ª+¸¥Iþàô.óó¡u|ÿÀèèMñüí¤2õàfÆ¢B8fùÜɶoÇxÉÓÐ%>Agy*âW£éæ9×;*N§´7tø=÷"vlèLKâ§ÿUÎæ \ ¸Ì'¦ÖƱo¥7Îi×(hE?I#7Äb¶VÏHÈÞ¯óç?ýóqü1#ÑlcNU»ãͧç&BÛ,rt:Ü\6lÌ5ÍlÉB³Ô2ëîºgO_¨è=6ÝgKòÎPâ|úY/m(æîûê=3ÚõÏÎ@=ÎØø
01:33:26 <oerjan> doesthiswork: tip: a file that has never existed has no culprits hth
01:34:13 <oerjan> i think that HackEgo line managed to put a right-to-left marker in
01:34:45 <oerjan> always amusing when irssi shows a time like 13:20
01:34:58 <oerjan> well, i supposed that one can happen naturally.
01:39:31 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 elliott
01:40:34 <zzo38> SQLite now has support for eponymous virtual tables which seem like a useful shortcut (my JSON and RDF extensions should automatically work with this feature without needing to modify the codes of those extensions). There is also indexes for expressions, and list of column names following the view name, and expression subtypes.
01:41:27 <zzo38> And it now uses semantic version numbers. However, it seem they did not add support for a virtual table to read and override the LIMIT and OFFSET clauses.
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01:46:47 <zzo38> (The ability to for a virtual table implementation to consume a LIMIT and/or OFFSET clause would be mostly useful when it reads data accessed over the internet.)
01:48:40 <FireFly> oerjan: ah, yes, has to be a consequence of the DST switch
01:48:58 <FireFly> although 13:20 seems like a bit too big of a gap
01:49:31 <oerjan> (the actual time was 02:31 hth hth)
01:54:09 <ais523> oh wow, today's xkcd actually amused me, for the first time in a while
01:54:11 <ais523> that doesn't happen often
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02:00:29 <oerjan> what, xkcd has already updated?
02:00:37 * oerjan doesn't normally check this early.
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02:03:44 <GoToTell> "A tib is half of a bit. A stib is a negative half of a bit. " is that official?
02:04:12 <ais523> GoToTell: it's a reference to http://esolangs.org/wiki/TURKEY_BOMB I think
02:04:17 <ais523> either that, or inspired by it
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02:05:40 <ais523> and if you haven't seen TURKEY BOMB you should
02:05:54 <ais523> esolangs doesn't really have an article about it because it's kind-of impossible to replicate the catseye treatment of it
02:06:32 <GoToTell> I see "drinking game" so TURKEY BOMB is a movie?
02:08:16 <GoToTell> I guess not, that would be too simple.
02:08:32 <GoToTell> The catseye page reads insane.
02:09:50 <ais523> scroll down to "Data Types" for the relevant bit
02:10:07 <ais523> doesn't seem to have tib/stib but it has a bunch of other types in the same vein
02:15:40 <zzo38> It also seem like difficult/impossible to implement such thing
02:16:51 <GoToTell> I'm leaning towards impossible.
02:17:21 <ais523> there are physically possible realisations of much of the language
02:17:28 <ais523> I tried to implement the TURKEY BOMB itself (the type) in C++ once
02:18:12 <ais523> it's surprisingly hard to make a type that admits only one value that is a reference to itself, at least if you want to be able to dereference it by reading its bit pattern as a memory address /and/ you want to avoid overloading
02:33:25 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/108/ trying to solve this
02:33:55 <izabera> this is my code http://arin.ga/X1XiOB/raw and this is a test with their input http://arin.ga/oRgCrM/raw
02:34:28 <izabera> it produces the expected output on that, but the score is only 90%
02:36:32 <izabera> ..somehow i messed up the test case while pasting it http://arin.ga/ivbW3Y/raw
02:50:35 <izabera> fixed it <.< my insert mode was broken
02:50:57 <izabera> http://arin.ga/eupmlA/raw here it is <.<
02:55:31 <izabera> guys you have to try that site
02:55:38 <izabera> it's full of nice problems
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02:57:51 <FireFly> https://open.kattis.com/ is also fun if one likes competitive programming
02:59:00 <izabera> what is competitive programming?
02:59:36 <izabera> do you have an opponent and whoever finishes first wins?
03:00:16 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Competitive_programming
03:01:05 <FireFly> Usually there is a set of problems to solve, and the goal is to solve as many problems as possible within the event.. although time is used as a tie breaker
03:02:12 <HackEgo> rntz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:02:23 <FireFly> izabera: here's a good example: https://open.kattis.com/problems/islandhopping
03:02:35 <FireFly> of the type of task that competitive programming usually involves
03:02:36 <shachaf> I guess you've been here before.
03:03:15 <FireFly> izabera: usually the main focus is in coming up with an algorithm to solve the problem, and then implementing the algorithm.. so there's a lot of focus on algorithms and data structure knowledge
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03:19:29 <oerjan> > groupBy ((==)`on`(' '==))"usually the main focus is in coming up with an"
03:19:30 <lambdabot> ["usually"," ","the"," ","main"," ","focus"," ","is"," ","in"," ","coming","...
03:23:16 <FireFly> Hmm, it wasn't very clear to me that newlines should be ignored, in that terminal task
03:23:23 <FireFly> from the description, I mean
03:24:58 <FireFly> Well I also got 90 :P darn
03:25:10 <oerjan> > map head $ group "HeHe"
03:25:14 <izabera> FireFly: i had the same problem with newlines
03:25:54 <FireFly> It's tempting to look at your code to see what tripped you up for the 90→100p, but I'll try to figure it out first
03:26:01 <zzo38> You can look at card I make up, tell me if you think Wizards of the Coast will print them or not, and idea of favor text if you have, too
03:26:07 <FireFly> I think it might be an issue with my clear-til-end-of-line
03:26:28 <izabera> FireFly: "for the 90→100p" ??
03:26:49 <FireFly> Well, you only got 90% initially, right?
03:27:02 <FireFly> Anyway, I did something stupid
03:27:14 <izabera> i don't remember what the score
03:28:01 <FireFly> <izabera> it produces the expected output on that, but the score is only 90% ← this, I mean
03:29:12 <izabera> so people don't have to remember
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03:35:43 <FireFly> Somehow I got 90% even though I completely forgot to implement insert-mode...
03:36:51 <FireFly> Hm, your bash implementation is nicer and much shorter than my C one :P
03:37:24 <FireFly> well it's certainly shorter
03:37:35 <FireFly> although I didn't hardcode the size of the buffer in mine
03:37:48 <izabera> mine has to use eval for the 2d array
03:37:53 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/terminal.c.html if you're curious
03:42:20 <izabera> yours is much more professional...
03:44:31 <FireFly> It's sad that FizzBuzz has a 37% success rate on that site
03:44:39 <oerjan> i was sort of hoping it wasn't living, if nothing else then for its own sake
03:44:58 <izabera> FireFly: it's harder than the standard fizzbuzz
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03:54:15 <izabera> you can't just add eso in front of everything
03:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> - An animal that is different from anything you've ever seen
03:58:28 <hppavilion[1]> - A room that is different from anything you've ever seen
03:58:54 <izabera> does that mean that the second time you see an eso* thing, it's not eso anymore?
03:59:08 <hppavilion[1]> - A computer that is different from anything you've ever seen
03:59:22 <FireFly> I've seen #esoteric many times...
03:59:31 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: "Anything you've ever seen" excludes that thing itself because of well-founded set theory.
03:59:39 <izabera> a cat that look like an elephant wouldn't be an esocat
03:59:57 <pikhq> So, you're saying it should just be #teric then?
04:00:54 <izabera> well, assuming you've seen elephants
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04:25:38 <FireFly> Some of these easy tasks are a bit silly.. like https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/4/
04:26:12 <FireFly> I suppose it would be against the spirit of the question, but there doesn't seem to be anything stopping one from just hardcoding the answer
04:28:59 <izabera> https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/155/ about this one
04:30:20 <izabera> the first repeated 5-char string in their sample input is "he ne"
04:30:56 <izabera> i guess i'll have to check that it contains no space when decoded
04:32:50 <FireFly> Yes, and also that it is surrounded by non-letters probably
04:35:46 <FireFly> The lack of bounds on these tasks is a bit annoying
04:36:12 <FireFly> it doesn't state whether N might be negative, or whether a character + N might be >255, or ...
04:46:26 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/chaos{\?,}
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04:56:10 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
04:57:55 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/[?] /?[,.!?]\? /' bin/learn
04:58:00 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[,.!?]? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
04:58:14 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:58:22 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/[?] /?[,.!?]\\? /' bin/learn
04:58:28 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[,.!?]\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
04:58:52 <oerjan> `learn chaos? ¯\(° _o)/¯
04:58:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'chao': chaos? ¯\(° _o)/¯
04:59:26 <oerjan> i think it worked, anyhow
05:00:18 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/[[]/[:;/' bin/learn
05:00:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\?[:;,.!?]\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
05:01:43 <oerjan> `learn A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!
05:01:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'horse': A horse, a horse, my kingdom for a horse!
05:02:18 <oerjan> `learn A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
05:02:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'horse': A horse, a horse! My kingdom for a horse!
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05:16:03 <shachaf> oerjan: do you have a kingdom?
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05:23:16 <FireFly> izabera: I took the liberty to add you on codeeval
05:24:37 <zzo38> Can you make the Fizzbuzz with TeX shorter than 142 (and with no error messages)?
05:31:21 <izabera> FireFly: uh ok thanks, i didn't really focus on the social side of that side
05:31:58 <izabera> did i just admit of having no life even on programming sites?
05:32:16 <zzo38> \newcount\-\let~\advance\day0\loop~\-1~\day1~\mit\ifnum\-=3\-0Fizz\fi\ifnum\fam=5Buzz\rm\fi\ifvmode\the\day\fi\endgraf\ifnum\day<`d\repeat\bye
05:32:56 <izabera> does tex count as esoteric?
05:33:41 <zzo38> Maybe it kind of does but not quite by completely?
05:33:43 <FireFly> I'd say it counts as esoteric if one uses it for something other than markup
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05:34:25 <izabera> does it count if you print fizzbuzz as the background of your thesis?
05:35:11 <zzo38> Even if you are typesetting a document you can use it for other stuff within the document too
05:38:45 <zzo38> Such as calculating when is Easter, parsing a set of chess moves, parsing a picture file, and auto-generating an index (I think it is more common to use an external program to generate the index, and then recompile the document again afterward)
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06:42:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Print "deadfish"]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44888&oldid=43947 * Oerjan * (+4) wikify, grm
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07:04:22 <izabera> FireFly: in your page, it says 93/6207 memory usage
07:05:03 <oerjan> it means he has 6114 memories left hth
07:09:08 <izabera> also in the right side of my leaderboard page, it says "Your profile is currently: NOT VISIBLE to employers."
07:09:52 * izabera is totally abusing the fact that someone is on that site
07:14:20 <FireFly> There was a thing in the settings for whether one is interested in job opportunities, I think
07:19:08 <izabera> FireFly: i tried that but it still says not visible :|
07:19:16 <nitrix> I'm looking for a esoteric language that's somewhat functional, lambda-calculus inspired maybe.
07:19:42 <nitrix> Concatenative (stack-based) would be great but not needed.
07:23:43 <FireFly> There's unlambda if you want combinatory logic
07:24:01 <FireFly> I think underload is concatenative
07:25:06 <FireFly> There's also joy, but that is less esoteric and more practical (although there's http://tunes.org/~iepos/joy.html which has a bit of an esoteric flavour to it, maybe)
07:25:14 <izabera> oddly specific requirements
07:27:18 <oerjan> nitrix: definitely underload
07:28:13 <nitrix> Oh that looks interest.
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07:31:11 <oerjan> there's also Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
07:31:31 <nitrix> I worked on XY, if you guys know it.
07:31:56 <oerjan> hm we don't seem to have a page on it...
07:31:57 <nitrix> http://www.nsl.com/k/xy/xy.htm
07:32:44 <nitrix> It's similar to cat-lang but it borrows a low from Lazy K. I joined the effort when it was almost complete.
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07:32:58 <izabera> what does the name "Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download" mean?
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07:33:04 <oerjan> hm concatenative with first class continuations - i think Burlesque has that
07:33:34 <oerjan> izabera: once upon a time a spammer made a page on our wiki by that name
07:33:52 <nitrix> It's great, it exhibit nice properties. I'm collecting ideas at the moment and see if I can invent my own this time.
07:33:59 <nitrix> I've been meaning to do this for a few years now.
07:34:13 <izabera> this is the best antispam strategy i've ever seen
07:38:18 <oerjan> nitrix: oh also Fueue which is a mad language Taneb made by replacing underload's stack with a queue. i'm the only one who has managed to program it.
07:38:31 <oerjan> (since i noticed XY has a queue)
07:39:40 <oerjan> (well, not just replacing, also added some arithmetic.)
07:39:57 <oerjan> let's say "inspired by"
07:42:12 <oerjan> eep, my brain isn't what it was.
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08:15:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44889&oldid=44603 * 82.116.252.148 * (+273)
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08:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44890&oldid=44889 * 82.116.252.148 * (+273) /* Secondary Rules */
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08:37:45 <lambdabot> int-e said 23h 5m 22s ago: I've installed some 32 bit libraries so your blsq executable should now work
08:38:38 <mroman> @tell int-e Yeah, the executable runs :)
08:48:55 <mroman> http://104.167.104.168/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi?q=3ro%29ro
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09:15:47 <fizzie> I still keep parsing it as "((Real Fast Nora's) Hair Salon ...) Download" and not "Real Fast (Nora's Hair Salon ...) Download".
09:16:32 <myname> i like the first one more tbh
09:16:43 <olsner> fizzie: the first one is the correct parsing :P
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09:18:31 <olsner> actually I think I parse it as "(Real Fast Nora's) Hair Salon 3: (Shear Disaster Download)"
09:19:59 <fizzie> IMDB suggests the originally intended parsing was the "Real Fast (...) Download", but I guess it's possible Taneb has changed it.
09:27:01 <fizzie> "Delicious (T. Ashanti Mozelle) is in charge of maintaining Nora s legacy and tradition by running & managing the shop. The dysfunctional group of hairstylists consisting of Janelle, Nina, Xenobia, Tashina, and manicurists Ming and Ling are still up to their old antics!"
09:27:23 <fizzie> "Ratings: 3.7/10 from 38 users"
09:27:27 <fizzie> It might not be a very good one.
09:27:40 <myname> but you can download it real fast
09:27:50 <Jafet> The summary doesn't sound all that disastrous.
09:28:00 <fizzie> Jafet: Well, that was just the setup.
09:28:09 <fizzie> "One day, reality show producer Charles (Miguel Nuñez) enters the shop. Captivated by the goings-on inside, he proposes that Nora s Hair Salon have its own show. Immediately, the salon crew signs on with hopes of money and fame, but they get more than they bargained for when they learn that Charles has ulterior motives. Now, the crew must come together to see that this reality tape never sees ...
09:28:15 <fizzie> ... the light of day."
09:28:34 <fizzie> I don't think it even has Nora in it.
09:29:37 <fizzie> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1714080/
09:29:58 <b_jonas> oh, it's called just Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster
09:30:04 <b_jonas> I was trying to search for "Real Fast Nora's"
09:30:12 <b_jonas> so the "Real Fast" is about the download?
09:30:21 <fizzie> Yes, that's what the above discussion was about.
09:30:23 <Jafet> I wonder how many people have downloaded it (regardless of speed)
09:31:12 <b_jonas> I had thought the Real Fast was about the Saloon, as in, the hairdresser does your hair real quick.
09:31:22 <b_jonas> Even for complicated wedding hairdo.
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09:38:49 <oerjan> fizzie: iirc from previous discussions / imdb lookups, nora dies in the first movie
09:46:35 <oerjan> ah i must have found that on wikipedia
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09:51:20 <oerjan> wikipedia and imdb don't even agree what the 3rd movie is called :P
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10:05:05 <int-e> mroman: I'd have installed the libraries sooner, but I missed the discussion on friday (hilights don't work when the channel is currently active in irssi when one goes idle...)
10:06:39 <oerjan> int-e: oh and GG updated early
10:06:48 <mroman> Thank you very much for doing this.
10:07:19 <mroman> http://104.167.104.168/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi?q=|[12+23.%2By13%3F*Y]|
10:10:29 <int-e> mroman: does burlesque do any (intentional) file IO? It's currently running as the burlesque user...
10:13:55 <int-e> (otoh, I've imposed some mild resource limts: 256MB and 15 seconds CPU time... so at least there should not be any runaway processes)
10:17:10 <int-e> oerjan: bah... no news on the impending doom... V-gas, slaver engines... what's going to happen? I NEED TO KNOW!
10:17:19 <mroman> Burlesque has absolutely no I/O.
10:17:41 <mroman> The Burlesque Interpreter runs in State monad without I/O
10:18:21 <int-e> Ok, then I probably won't bother with sandboxing it any further :)
10:18:56 <mroman> unless someone finds a vulnerability in the haskell runtime
10:19:32 <int-e> yeah I won't rule that out; hence "intentional".
10:19:32 <mroman> runProgramNoStdin :: String -> String
10:21:25 <int-e> > 3 -- this is much, much, worse than that
10:23:06 <oerjan> int-e: well those things in the previous comic certainly _looked_ like slaver engines. miniature ones.
10:24:57 <int-e> so that's what happened to schlockmercenary.com ... not a conspiracy after all, whew. http://howardtayler.com/2015/10/that-dns-thingy-yesterday/
10:27:37 <oerjan> int-e: that's what they _want_ you to think.
10:27:44 <int-e> Hmm, I wonder... how could the master of Paris not know about this? Or does he?
10:27:55 <oerjan> that's a good question.
10:28:47 <oerjan> at the rate he must be getting overthrow attempts, he and his minions must be pretty good at it
10:28:47 <int-e> (also that's one of the worst parking sites I've ever seen... it demands that you enable Javascript!)
10:30:50 <fizzie> int-e: A bit conspirationally, the x.schlockapp.com site is missing this Monday's strip.
10:30:59 <int-e> Oh well, I really love the intense, grim look of Madame Velix in Friday's comic.
10:31:12 <fizzie> (It appeared in my Feedly feed, but the image never loads in Feedly, and I still get the parking page.)
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10:37:01 <int-e> fizzie: well, the comic is there; I've added this to /etc/hosts: http://sprunge.us/dGEB
10:38:02 <int-e> but apparently the bogus name servers are cached for 2, perhaps even 3 days.
10:47:50 <int-e> alternative way of getting the comic: curl -O -H "Host: static.schlockmercenary.com" http://174.142.197.113/comics/schlock20151026.jpg
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11:03:08 <Lyka> INSERT @00000000 : START : WHILE A A : GO 0x00000600 : GO 0x00000700
11:03:11 <Lyka> INSERT @00000600 : STRSET $LIDIOT "Lyka is an idiot."
11:03:13 <Lyka> INSERT @00000700 : CONOUT $LIDIOT
11:03:21 <Lyka> My program language in non-asm mode:
11:03:34 <boily> Hellyka! you're an idiot?
11:03:45 <Lyka> (okay, the first line came out last...)
11:04:41 <Lyka> does one not self-depricate code?
11:04:53 <int-e> wow, wisdom has gone two months without updates
11:05:36 <int-e> (and is, therefore, completely uninfested by moths)
11:05:40 * Lyka does not understand.
11:05:47 <int-e> hmm, s/moths/moth myths/
11:05:58 <int-e> Lyka: the pdf in the topic
11:06:03 <int-e> boily maintains it
11:06:17 <boily> fsvo maintains. I'm a few weeks late.
11:06:47 <HackEgo> dc/dc is short for "dump core". (try it out yourself: dc -e '[')
11:07:28 <Lyka> accidentally changed my screen res to 640x480
11:08:34 <int-e> nostalgia is 720x348 amber...
11:08:40 <Lyka> oh, just 1024x768
11:08:47 <Lyka> but it felt like...
11:09:05 <boily> 320x200. I had colours! COLOURS! 16 of 'em!
11:09:53 <int-e> CGA? EGA hat 640x350...
11:10:15 <Lyka> i never used a pre-vga machine
11:10:42 <Lyka> (except for an apple IIe)
11:11:13 <int-e> boily: it really didn't; you needed VGA or vendor extensions for that.
11:11:54 <int-e> (these details are such a waste of brain capacity)
11:12:02 <Lyka> VGA was 640x480x4 (16-bit color)
11:12:34 <Lyka> My first computer was SVGA
11:13:06 <Lyka> s/16-bit color/16 colors/
11:15:11 <Lyka> can you understand the hydra hcode language as i typed it?
11:15:36 <Hoolootwo> the first computer I owned and learned to program with had 96x64
11:17:11 * Lyka inserts tasteless comment that makes her realize she is not fit to be online at the moment
11:20:03 * Lyka must decide between exiting his bed and lying back down on it
11:26:14 <gamemanj> "WHILE A A"? Though the "GO"s make sense, there's nothing returning from them... and INSERT @00000600 when 0x00000600 is around is confusing
11:26:29 <boily> Lyka: understand the mattress. cherish the pillow. stare at the detailed ceiling.
11:27:02 <gamemanj> boily: embrace the ceiling's many aspects. understand the world. close the world...
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11:36:15 <Lyka> WHILE A A ; While A == A
11:37:18 <Lyka> INSERT @00000600 ; Insert the asm code that this is shorthand for starting at position 0x00000600
11:39:56 <Lyka> or, i could stick to "SET 04 00 01 GADR 00 00 01 00 02 00 03 00 JINZ 04 00 00 00 01 00 02 00 03 00" like stuff
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13:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QO]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44891&oldid=44877 * Zdimension * (+184) Added = operator
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14:39:43 <b_jonas> \oren\: I don't see the rotated long vowel sign, or the rotated Chinese dot and comma.
14:40:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: and is that really "Deseret and Shavian alphabets"? It looks as if it was only Deseret, or something
14:40:22 <b_jonas> there are some shavian letters
14:40:30 <b_jonas> I dunno, I don't understand this stuff
14:41:27 <Taneb> b_jonas: I can sympathize, I'm in a lecture about representing a chomsky grammar as a graph grammar
14:41:59 <Taneb> I don't understand this stuff
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15:14:13 <mroman> What's the highest-level brainfuck outthere?
15:16:35 <Taneb> Could you elaborate? I'm not sure I'm understanding the question
15:17:34 <mroman> Like brainfuck derivatives that make it little less brainfucky
15:18:04 <mroman> brainfuck "derivatives"
15:18:08 <mroman> or brainfuck extensions
15:18:19 * int-e is tempted to say "Mathematica" (or some other CAS)... and wait for objections
15:19:09 <Taneb> `? stephen wolfram
15:19:10 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
15:19:23 <int-e> Okay I'll admit that I was hoping for justifications as well.
15:19:43 <Taneb> int-e: Wolfram language is higher-level
15:19:46 <int-e> What? How can I be wrong about my hopes...
15:20:00 <Taneb> Oh, they're the same thing
15:20:05 <mroman> I don't know, but it's certainly possible to be wrong about hopes.
15:20:10 <Taneb> Wikipedia's CSS seems to have failed
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15:20:41 <mroman> Is there a brainfuck derivative that uses the tape like a mix between a stack and a tape?
15:21:00 <mroman> i.e. it's a stack but with < > you can manipulate the stack pointer
15:22:09 <mroman> (so technically all brainfuck programs would run perfectly fine, at least the ones in normal form)
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15:23:43 <mroman> but there would be additional commands like adding two numbers on the stack
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15:24:55 <Taneb> mroman: the Ook! derivative I wrote a long time ago had some stuff like that
15:25:08 <Taneb> Although it had two tapes that moved independently rather than a stack
15:25:28 <int-e> I guess you could also traverse a tree... this may have been done
15:25:34 <int-e> ...or a grid, for that matter
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16:08:43 <mroman> *Main> run "+++>++++>++aa@n"
16:08:57 <mroman> (a is an addition, @ show number, n show newline)
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16:38:15 <Taneb> Maths vocabulary is fun sometimes
16:38:27 <Taneb> Just had a lecturer ask "How many of you have come across bags?"
16:38:49 <int-e> does he mean multisets?
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16:43:29 <int-e> I remember a talk where the presenter was visibly happy that he finally found "the right" notation for bags: ⟅ ... ⟆
16:44:46 <shachaf> So the natural numbers are a free semilattice generated by powers of 2.
16:44:48 <HackEgo> [U+27C5 LEFT S-SHAPED BAG DELIMITER] [U+27C6 RIGHT S-SHAPED BAG DELIMITER]
16:45:01 <shachaf> And the positive naturals are a free commutative monoid generated by the primes.
16:45:36 <shachaf> What other exciting free structures do they have?
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16:46:31 <int-e> what about the basic one (free monoid)?
16:46:45 <shachaf> You mean, free monoid generated by a singleton set?
16:46:46 <int-e> with one generator.
16:47:20 <int-e> also, any free countable thing... by definition of countability ;)
16:47:37 <shachaf> this is why parametricity is great
16:47:48 <shachaf> it doesn't let you play those tricks
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16:52:35 <shachaf> Maybe the conaturals have something? You have structure with min/infty and and so on.
16:52:57 <shachaf> liftA2 mappend/pure mempty for ZipList ()
16:55:46 <shachaf> maybe that would be a cofree thing, because it's codata?
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16:57:44 <Taneb> The skeleton of the category of morphisms between finite vector spaces over the reals is I think equivalent to the naturals
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17:00:00 <shachaf> that is true but objects aren't important
17:00:26 <shachaf> all you're saying is that there are countably infinitely many objects?
17:00:32 <shachaf> the skeleton of the category of finite sets and functions between them also has naturals as objects
17:00:46 <shachaf> an arrow : N -> M is an N-tuple of numbers <M
17:00:55 <shachaf> composition is pointwise indexing
17:01:00 <quintopia> this is when i wish i understood category theory
17:01:10 <quintopia> where did oyu guys learn all this stuff
17:01:19 <shachaf> i learned it all from Taneb
17:01:53 <Taneb> quintopia: I learnt it all from shachaf
17:01:57 <Taneb> who inspired me to invent it
17:03:06 <int-e> Who invented Taneb?
17:03:10 <shachaf> quintopia: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1501.02503v2.pdf hth
17:03:12 <Taneb> int-e: my parents, I think
17:03:13 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
17:03:34 <shachaf> `` rgrep 'invented Taneb' wisdom
17:03:35 <HackEgo> wisdom/ci:The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
17:03:48 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
17:03:54 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nitia.
17:04:11 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
17:04:40 <int-e> I'd say nitia was discovered, not invented.
17:04:47 <quintopia> well, nitia only indirectly, by inventing BBC
17:04:54 -!- GoToTell has quit (Quit: Want to be different? Try HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <-).
17:05:06 <nitia> The set of all things is not a set. nitia invented it
17:05:40 <quintopia> long before Russell and Whitehead broke it
17:08:19 -!- nitia has changed nick to nvd.
17:09:05 <HackEgo> nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
17:09:20 <shachaf> nvd: what is your profession
17:09:24 <nvd> shachaf: student
17:09:27 <quintopia> you all learned category theory from david madore. it all makes sense now.
17:10:17 <nvd> shachaf: also person who helps people be students
17:11:36 <nvd> quintopia: do you regularly go to a place of education?
17:11:41 <nvd> If so, in what capacity?
17:13:31 <nvd> I would suggest that that is the wrong capacity
17:13:42 <nvd> Try attending in the capacity of being a student
17:14:29 <quintopia> i have tried. i've told my students to be the tutors instead and teach me, but they don't seem to know category theory either
17:15:30 <int-e> Right, don't take action; be a bystander. Showing interest is optional.
17:16:09 <int-e> it's the teacher's job to make you learn
17:17:26 <quintopia> yeah that's the worst part of teaching
17:17:32 <int-e> (disclaimer: the statements above are my own but do not necessarily reflect my opinion)
17:17:46 <quintopia> if i ran the place, i'd just kick out everyone who wasn't willing to take an active role in their education
17:18:12 <shachaf> nvd: Should I be a student?
17:18:30 <nvd> shachaf: do you want to learn?
17:18:37 <izabera> you can be anything you want
17:19:16 <nvd> shachaf: then why not be a student
17:19:16 * izabera sends quintopia in a corner
17:19:23 <shachaf> nvd: takes up a lot of time
17:19:33 <nvd> Be a night student!
17:19:41 <shachaf> takes up time at night too
17:20:09 <nvd> There is more time at night than during the day
17:20:09 <izabera> it's a punishment corner for educational purposes
17:20:25 <nvd> Because it's after the autumn equinox in the northern hemispher
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17:29:21 <shachaf> quintopia: you could read Leinster's _Basic Category Theory_
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17:29:36 <nvd> I've been reading Schubert's Category Theory
17:29:44 <nvd> It's... not a good introductory text
17:29:51 <shachaf> quintopia: come Jan 01 it'll be available on the Internet for free
17:29:55 <nvd> I prefer his music
17:29:57 <shachaf> but you can already get it as a book
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17:42:28 <zzo38> Make SQLite extension for accessing various kind of external data, such as weather and finance and perhaps various different search engines for specific kind of stuff.
17:43:36 <shachaf> Why does that belong in SQLite?
17:44:06 <zzo38> It does not belong in the SQLite core, but it can be use in extensions.
17:44:56 <lambdabot> LOWI 261720Z VRB02KT CAVOK 09/07 Q1018 NOSIG
17:45:15 <zzo38> Therefore you don't need to use web-browser and so on to access, just using SQL to access it instead and you can even use multiple sources (including local data) together, making backups of data, etc. In some cases you may even want to be able to send data to the server; a virtual table can be read/write so this is possible.
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17:48:15 <zzo38> It would be useful if SQLite had the way for a virtual table to consume LIMIT/OFFSET clauses (especially when used with remote data accessed over internet), although a few considerations must be made in order to do so: [1] The SQLite core may add implicit LIMIT/OFFSET, for example in a scalar subquery. [2] If the virtual table cannot consume the ORDER BY clause, then it will not be able to consume the LIMIT/OFFSET clause either.
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18:45:41 <b_jonas> Battle for Zendikar has an Ur-Golem's Eye with a 4/4 body for {5}
18:47:44 <b_jonas> Also an instant for {7} with “Exile target permanent.”
18:48:55 <b_jonas> Also a couple of cards that can put an opponent's exiled cards (including suspended etc) to graveyard.
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19:18:49 <izabera> stop talking about your yugioh cards
19:20:36 <b_jonas> gamemanj: yes, but "yugioh" is the correct derogatory term in this context when you want to annoy M:tG players
19:20:59 <gamemanj> hmm... "MtG is an esoteric card-based co-programming language, meant to be executed by hand between a set of human beings."
19:21:49 <b_jonas> or more like tease them, rather than annoy
19:21:52 <gamemanj> "The flow of the program is determined by randomness and the strategic choices those humans make, along with the sets of cards."
19:22:21 <gamemanj> "Thus, MtG is not entirely deterministic. It is likely to be possible to predict all potential flows through a program, but not to determine the flow that will occur."
19:22:41 <zzo38> How many non-scheming players should normally play in a Archenemy game?
19:22:52 <gamemanj> "The output of the program is the information on which human 'won' the game."
19:23:06 <shachaf> The game might nonterminate.
19:23:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: all players available, I say
19:26:01 <b_jonas> I'd like an Unscar card (hybrid Battlegrowth), that is, an instant for {W/G} with “Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature”
19:26:31 <gamemanj> shachaf: The game terminates when the humans are.
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19:27:13 <gamemanj> (read: even if you an MtG program ran forever, when the humans died, it wouldn't be running, would it?)
19:27:46 <b_jonas> gamemanj: humans manipulating physical cards or MTGO are just the usual ways to execute the program
19:28:04 <b_jonas> just like how compiling, linking, and then running the linked program is just the usual way to run a C program
19:28:25 <b_jonas> the game rules model is abstract and well-defined regardless the humans,
19:28:33 <b_jonas> so you can talk about a game without humans playing
19:31:15 <b_jonas> there's two separate documents, the game rules and the tournament rules. the game rules (which is like the C standard) describes the abstract flow of the game. the tournament rules describe a way humans can play with physical cards, how they have to represent the state of the game, and what the judges shall do when they make mistakes or cheat deliberately.
19:31:43 <b_jonas> but the tournament rules isn't the only way you can play the game defined by the game rules.
19:32:10 <b_jonas> (in addition, the tournament rules also describes tournament structure, drafts, deck checks, and stuff like that.)
19:32:28 <b_jonas> (those are things that happen between or outside games)
19:33:47 <gamemanj> So MtG may as well come with a programming language for the rules, then. Noted...
19:33:59 <b_jonas> In particular, the tournament rules say that during the game, the players must not use note made before the game, but only notes they made during the game. This is for practical reasons, to speed up matches, but if you start programming M:tG, you don't want to play that way.
19:34:44 <b_jonas> This isn't really unique to M:tG. Chess or contact bridge also have abstract game rules and tournament rules, though in those cases they might be in the same document.
19:36:04 <b_jonas> (Chess has like a hundred different rules documents, because the chess association of each country has a separate one.)
19:44:22 <b_jonas> The tournament rules also imply that some tournament games don't map to games valid in the game rules, because for some accidental mistakes, the judges can continue the game from an invalid game derivation.
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19:44:59 <b_jonas> However, you can't deliberately play an invalid game, because if you do, that counts as cheating, so the judge has to award you at least a game loss, likely worse.
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20:02:11 <b_jonas> A white Assassinate? What the heck? Why are they printing all creature removal in white now?
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20:41:28 <Taneb> Trivia: porting a C doubly linked list to Haskell is not easy
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21:35:12 <Taneb> Our website now supports https
21:35:45 <Taneb> I'm doing joint honours Maths and CS
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21:40:42 <Phantom_Hoover> i need someone to supervise my project and it's between him and someone else
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21:53:31 <Taneb> Oooh, that's a thing I need to do
21:53:38 <Taneb> (choose who to supervise my project)
21:53:43 <Taneb> I'd suggest choosing a better project
21:59:58 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
22:00:33 <Taneb> https://hacksoc.org/ check out that delicious SSL
22:01:32 <boily> yes? what about it?
22:01:54 <boily> oh! it's let'sencrypted!
22:02:19 <Taneb> Our infrastructure guy got on the beta
22:03:10 <boily> Nom alternatif du sujet du certificat, nom DNS: runciman.hacksoc.org.
22:03:34 <Taneb> runciman is the name of our shell server
22:03:40 <Taneb> With user webspace
22:03:48 <Taneb> It's where my esolangs page lives
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22:05:35 <Taneb> In that case, I suggest choosing a better university
22:05:38 <Taneb> Might I recommend York?
22:05:43 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:06:12 <Taneb> (University of, that is, otherwise you might bump into oren)
22:06:21 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, fuck off your underwater hockey team is mediocre
22:07:11 <Taneb> That is a fair point
22:08:17 <Phantom_Hoover> though they're hosting student nationals this year so do not tell them i said that
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22:08:49 <Taneb> I'm afraid I don't follow underwater hockey too closely
22:09:16 <boily> \oren\: \helloren\. you york?
22:09:42 <Taneb> boily, I believe \oren\ is or was associated with York University
22:09:52 <Taneb> Which is a completely different establishment
22:10:09 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, well yes, you can't really see anything unless you are also underwater
22:14:25 <Taneb> That sounds like a lot of effort
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22:52:21 <tswett> Porting a C linked list to Haskell?
22:52:21 <tswett> I dunno, wouldn't that be a matter of, like...
22:52:45 <tswett> data DLL a = DLL a (Ptr a) (Ptr a)
22:53:01 <tswett> data DLL a = DLL a (Ptr (DLL a)) (Ptr (DLL a))
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22:58:56 <Taneb> `wisdom tanebventions
22:58:57 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*tanebventions*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
22:59:03 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
22:59:16 <Taneb> `fundamental theorem of tanebventions
22:59:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: fundamental: not found
22:59:21 <Taneb> `?fundamental theorem of tanebventions
22:59:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?fundamental: not found
22:59:23 <Taneb> `? fundamental theorem of tanebventions
22:59:24 <HackEgo> fundamental theorem of tanebventions? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:00:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: RENEWED CHICKEN).
23:03:21 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
23:13:31 -!- Wright has joined.
23:23:05 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
23:23:52 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/wisdom
23:25:25 <HackEgo> native/The natives are restless, also armed with sed.
23:25:44 <HackEgo> lord/The way of the Lord is not just.
23:25:51 <HackEgo> bfjoust/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
23:26:31 <FireFly> `` echo wisdom/* | tr -dc \ | wc -c
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23:27:46 <FireFly> There are probably better ways to figure out how many elements a glob expands to
23:28:25 <FireFly> `` tmp=(wisdom/*); echo ${#tmp}
23:34:17 <\oren\> boily: no, I'm an alumnus of UofT, but my dad works at York U
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23:45:46 <\oren\> Can one use proliferate to charage up planeswalkers faster?
23:46:00 <tswett> Hey, what happens when damage is dealt to a planeswalker creature?
23:51:09 <\oren\> it loses loyalty counters
23:56:59 <tswett> Does a planeswalker creature necessarily have toughness?
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00:22:11 <Jafet> `` t=0; for f in wisdom/*; do t=$(($t+1)); done; echo $t
00:28:14 <fizzie> `` t=(wisdom/*); echo ${#t[@]} # to fix the earlier glob-array thing
00:28:40 <zgrep> `` ls wisdow | wc -l
00:28:41 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdow: No such file or directory \ 0
00:28:46 <zgrep> `` ls wisdom | wc -l
00:28:57 <zgrep> Well, that wasn't expected.
00:29:11 <zgrep> `` ls -1 wisdom | wc -l
00:29:35 <fizzie> `` ls wisdom # there's a special thing
00:29:36 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
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00:30:42 <zgrep> Why am I responding to HackEgo. ._.
00:51:04 <zgrep> HackEgo: Will you talk to me?
00:53:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hackego: not found
00:54:23 <zgrep> At least I can give it a
00:54:41 <doesthiswork> fungot might talk to you if you are super lonely
00:54:41 <fungot> doesthiswork: in the .x register to determine the foreground graphics data must be set with the triangular, sawtooth, and
00:55:08 <zgrep> fungot: How's life?
00:55:08 <fungot> zgrep: to switch all of the current raster count) ( d026) note: this statement allows the current value of zero in the
00:55:19 <zgrep> I'll let you be, then.
00:58:18 <zgrep> Let's see how bad I am at J...
00:58:26 <j-bot> zgrep: |domain error
01:00:23 <shachaf> doesthiswork: Just call him "Jafet".
01:07:45 <doesthiswork> a pronoun anaphorically refers to a previous word, what previous word did "him" refer to?
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01:09:04 <doesthiswork> or in cs terms what was the name of Jafet in the scope before your statement?
01:19:31 <shachaf> you don't have to run it into the ground
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01:44:15 <FireFly> [ |. |: I. 0 ,.~ <. 0.5 + 3 * (% >./) (- <./) 1&o. i:3j40
01:44:16 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
01:44:16 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
01:44:16 <j-bot> FireFly: 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
01:45:49 <FireFly> [ binview |. |: I. 1 ,.~ <. 0.5 + 3 * (% >./) (- <./) 1&o. i:3j40
01:45:50 <j-bot> FireFly: ⠤⠤⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⣀⠤⠤⠒⠒⠊⠉⠉⠉⠉⠉⠑⠒
01:47:42 <\oren\> pili-pala + palladium myr + quicksilver elemental = unlimited mana
01:48:43 <\oren\> unlimited mana of any color, that is
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01:54:57 <\oren\> actually quicksilver elemental is probably broken in a huge variety of ways
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02:22:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44892&oldid=44886 * Timwi * (+8) /* Removing periods */
02:26:25 <\oren\> in middle school I played Magic a lot with my friends
02:27:14 <\oren\> i have a pretty large number of cards, mostly from the Mirrodin and Ravnica related sets
02:38:02 <doesthiswork> are you interested in MtG fanfiction? There is one I can recommend
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05:50:47 <\oren\> God damn it wikipedia, all I wanted was to know what chemical they use to make black leather black!
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08:26:15 <myname> recommend some oots or ma3 like webcomics!
08:31:18 <b_jonas> myname: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/grn lists some two dozen webcomics. some of them are even good.
08:31:45 <myname> "some of them are even good" he said
08:31:52 <myname> what could possibly go wrong
08:32:09 <shachaf> myname: whoa whoa whoa, you're not even on olist
08:34:44 <izabera> i'm currently ranked #3 in the codeeval bash leaderboard *_*
08:35:22 <myname> shachaf: i don't even know olist
08:35:31 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
08:36:02 <myname> well, i am looking for something that notificates me for different comics
08:37:01 <HackEgo> wisdom/bdsmreclist \ wisdom/danddreclist \ wisdom/herbalist \ wisdom/list \ wisdom/olist \ wisdom/slist
08:37:28 <HackEgo> A herbalist is a list of herbas.
08:37:36 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/herbalist
08:38:04 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/A/An/' wisdom/herbalist
08:47:36 <izabera> mroman: https://www.codeeval.com/ you can filter the leaderboard
08:48:11 <izabera> sorry for the ambiguous wording
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09:42:04 <mroman> Taneb, nortti: http://esosc.mroman.ch/ESOSC-2015-D8.TXT
09:42:08 <mroman> Any thoughts about that?
09:42:23 <mroman> The idea is to specify an API for executing esoteric programs
09:42:38 <mroman> and then maintaining a list of servers supporting the API by language
09:42:56 <mroman> and then we can provide a single-point-of-contact to interpret various esolangs online
09:44:22 <fizzie> I like the word "respenso".
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10:08:43 <FireFly> Hm, hadn't heard of that one before
10:09:59 * gamemanj grabs some popcorn, this'll be fun
10:12:18 <FireFly> Girl Genius and Stand Still. Stay Silent are two pretty nice story-heavy webcomics
10:13:27 <fizzie> Do you really write it with a period in the name?
10:13:56 <fizzie> Also, RESOURCE FORKS. (Just thought of them for some reason.)
10:17:21 * gamemanj starts reading Stand Still. Stay Silent... and she didn't even know it was set in the modern day until someone pulled a phone out (though maybe the boat should've been a clue)
10:19:46 <gamemanj> And it seems the autoreplace to using "she/her" for everything (RX14's idea) has managed to make things confusing.
10:21:36 * gamemanj promptly edits their autoreplace
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10:56:12 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/herbalist
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11:38:19 <FreeFull> String concatenation is multiplication, not addition
11:42:25 <b_jonas> \oren\: you've added some new kanji, but I'm still missing "百" and the vertical writing version of the long vowel sign, full stop and comma.
11:49:42 <mroman> Is this spring valey school video now everywhere in the news?
11:52:08 <mroman> If the police officer rightfully had the obligation to remove her from the room then what he did is technically correct in my own humble opinion.
11:52:23 <mroman> The other question is if he should have been tasked to do that in the first place :)
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11:53:46 <mroman> I mean if he rightfully was tasked to remove a person from the room, orders the person verbally to leave the room, the person refuses, then the only option left is to forcefully remove that person from the room.
11:56:45 <mroman> Granted, there's the issue of "excessive force".
12:10:20 -!- Lyka|Away has changed nick to Lyka.
12:18:54 <mroman> Is FlexibleContexts enabled by default in some ghc versions?
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12:29:13 <mroman> Apparentely FlexibleContexts is required as of 7.10
12:29:20 <mroman> whereas in 7.83 it wasn't required.
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13:00:47 <mroman> <literal>data Fun = Fun (Ord a => a -> b)</literal> was identical to
13:00:48 <mroman> <literal>data Fun = Fun (forall a b. Ord a => a -> b)</literal>,
13:05:13 <mroman> wow. I should really get used to compile with -Wall
13:05:24 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
13:05:47 <mroman> A do-notation statement discarded a result of type ‘[()]’
13:05:53 <mroman> can you discard results without generating a warning?
13:06:47 -!- jaboja has joined.
13:07:05 <mroman> http://codepad.org/QYDqsZC3 <- also what's that?
13:07:21 <mroman> It replaced the constraints Ord a, Num a with a concrete type "Double"?
13:07:32 <mroman> I assume thats bad, otherwise there wouldn't be a warning
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13:10:59 <b_jonas> ah great, haruspexy at http://www.questionablecontent.net/
13:11:40 <b_jonas> (though real haruspexes do it from liver specifically, not "entrails" in general. they probably found a cheap fake haruspex.)
13:11:44 <b_jonas> (but at least they tried.)
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13:39:44 <izabera> i submitted an entry to codeeval and i left a debug thing enabled by mistake
13:39:53 <izabera> now i can see the generated output
13:39:56 -!- jaboja has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
13:40:40 <izabera> would it be unfair to just submit something that prints the correct output without actually computing it?
13:44:46 <Jafet> Al Zimmerman doesn't think so; his contests don't even ask for the code, merely the solution.
13:59:52 <b_jonas> damn, it's indeed not shorter
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14:52:24 <nortti> < mroman> Taneb, nortti: http://esosc.mroman.ch/ESOSC-2015-D8.TXT ← looks good
14:56:29 <gamemanj> What happens if I supply it with "+[>+]"?
14:57:29 <nortti> a runtime error, I'd guess
14:57:43 <nortti> mroman: maybe specify ^
14:57:56 <gamemanj> That would require solving the halting problem or setting a timeout on user's programs...
15:11:27 <mroman> Well obviously you need a timeout
15:11:32 <mroman> and memory limits anyway
15:11:36 <mroman> so I'd count that under runtime errors
15:12:28 <mroman> or we use a different status code for "limit exceeded"
15:13:20 <mroman> also if you don't support the language you could respond with uhm
15:13:24 <mroman> 501 Not Implemented or something :D
15:15:41 <fizzie> Or 402 Payment Required.
15:15:50 <fizzie> With a body listing your fee schedule for implementing that language.
15:18:54 <mroman> or you encode the exact cause in the json-response
15:19:14 <fizzie> (You could make some sort of an argument that unsupported languages or invalid programs could be considered more of a client than server error.)
15:20:52 <mroman> 400 for syntax errors makes more sense
15:21:10 <mroman> leaving 500 for server errors (such as timeout, out of memory)
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15:27:49 <gamemanj> Wouldn't a server be breaking protocol if you asked it to emulate something with unbounded memory and it failed?
15:28:06 <mroman> I actually don't really like status code
15:28:14 <mroman> because webservers can send 400 bad request by themselves
15:28:23 <mroman> you don't know if the webapp sent the 400 or the webserver
15:30:38 <gamemanj> maybe if an esoteric program uses more than a megabyte of memory, it could put the state of the first megabyte onto an upload service and work entirely in the second, and keep swapping... but still, if you run an unbounded memory program, the admins of the upload service would be after you
15:35:18 <mroman> servers WILL have timeouts and memory limits
15:36:37 <mroman> I'm more in favor of always using 200 except there's really a server error going on
15:36:46 <mroman> and just indicate the error in the json using a "cause" or whatever
15:37:19 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/ESOSC/ESOSC-2015-D8.TXT <- like so
15:37:40 <mroman> 404 Porn Missing, come back later
15:39:11 <fizzie> HTTP/2 no longer has the "reason" field (the free-form textual thing that accompanies the status code), so some Chrome APIs just return a hardcoded "OK", no matter what the status code.
15:40:22 <fizzie> It looks a bit silly with well-known errors like 404.
15:40:43 <mroman> It could just use a lookup table .
15:41:01 <Taneb> Better than "200 error"
15:41:55 <gamemanj> 404 System is out of cats for use in electrostatic storage
15:43:40 <fizzie> mroman: I think they didn't want to, because you'd anyway have some status codes not specified in the spec.
15:44:27 <fizzie> Oh, it's even better -- the chrome://net-internals "synthetic" status line in the HTTP_TRANSACTION_READ_RESPONSE_HEADERS reads "HTTP/1.1 404 OK".
15:44:47 <fizzie> Both the 1.1 and OK have nothing to do with the reality; the request went over QUIC.
15:44:54 <mroman> then reply with "NOT SPECIFIED"?
15:45:40 <mroman> still better than "500 OK"
15:45:58 <mroman> if http/2 still has 500
15:46:03 <mroman> I don't know http/2 well
15:46:33 <fizzie> The "semantics" parts try to be very HTTP/1.1-compatible, to make upgrading easier.
15:49:04 <fizzie> It does finally fix that thing where it's not allowed by HTTP/1.1 for the server to send the response before it has received the entire request, including the body, from the client.
15:49:04 <mroman> http/2 violates layering?
15:49:47 <mroman> "for example by duplicating flow control with transport layer (TCP)."
15:51:11 <fizzie> Well, arguably. It's got its own protocol-level flow control window thing for the streams within a connection.
15:55:13 <fizzie> I wonder if that makes things easier for QUIC, which doesn't have flow control at the transport layer.
16:01:38 <Taneb> Anyone know any unicode symbols identical to :?
16:11:55 <mroman> are you mimicking stuff?
16:29:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unlearn: not found
16:29:53 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
16:30:00 <HackEgo> mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW)
16:30:22 <mroman> `? mroman__? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:30:23 <HackEgo> mroman__? ¯\(°_o)/¯? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:30:28 <mroman> `learn mroman__? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:30:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'mroman__': mroman__? ¯\(°_o)/¯
16:52:39 <myname> i want to see one of said hash functions
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17:09:24 <mroman> pwHash = md5(pw+md5(pw))
17:09:29 <mroman> using the pw as a salt
17:10:19 <mroman> if you have millions of users like my sites do those extra bytes to store an actual salt cost you a lot of disk space
17:10:25 <mroman> and disk space ain't free
17:12:02 <mroman> if they brute force pwHash they won't get the actual pw
17:14:40 <mroman> but yet you can still tell if two people use the same password
17:14:55 <mroman> password VARCHAR(32) NOT NULL UNIQUE
17:14:59 <mroman> notice the UNIQUE constraint there
17:15:25 <mroman> this ensures that two people can't have the same password
17:16:13 <mroman> so if somebody dumps your database, cracks a hash, he can't access more than one account with it
17:19:01 <mroman> myname: just let me know if you need other security recommendations.
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17:22:11 <mroman> myname: to prevent pre-computed rainbow table thingies you can use a shuffle
17:22:21 <mroman> pwHash = md5(shuffle(pw,seed)+md5(pw))
17:22:40 <mroman> where seed is value in a config.ini or whatever
17:23:12 <mroman> or use md5(encrypt(pw,key)+md5(pw)) where key is in your config.ini
17:25:29 * oerjan now reads the logs by pasting into vim, reformatting, saving and reloading that file from IE
17:25:39 <mroman> storing salts just wastes valuable disk space
17:25:53 <mroman> or even more valuable memory if you use acid-state
17:25:58 <oerjan> how much salt in a souffle, anyway
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17:28:55 <oerjan> hm this recipe says 7g salt but not what the total is
17:29:52 <oerjan> https://www.chefsteps.com/activities/molten-chocolate-souffle
17:30:10 * oerjan will consider this today's evil link
17:46:46 <hppavilion[1]> It's really just python compressed into a .tar.gz and ASCIIzed
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17:54:26 <mroman> wouldn't that make it longer.
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17:59:29 <quintopia> i suppose you mean replacing all the syntax with letters?
18:00:15 <quintopia> you're saying, write a python program, compress it, change bases so all characters are printable
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18:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> quintopia: Taking a binary file and printing it out as a series of ASCII characters
18:15:10 <quintopia> ah, so you don't care if they are printable
18:16:01 <Taneb> I have no idea what I enjoy
18:16:37 <Taneb> Not too useful for choosing my final year project
18:17:31 <quintopia> for your project you should invent a project to turn in for a good grade
18:21:12 <Taneb> The problem may be that I enjoy TOO MANY THINGS
18:21:15 <Taneb> And hence can't focus
18:21:58 <Taneb> Or maybe the inability to focus is unrelated and can be dealt with with modern medicine
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18:30:58 <FireFly> er, the enjoying too many things, that is
18:31:27 <Taneb> I had an unproductive meeting with a potential supervisor because I said to every suggestion "Wow, that sounds interesting, I could do that"
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18:32:21 <fizzie> Taneb: Measure galvanic skin response when you're saying that, pick the one with highest.
18:32:31 <Taneb> That sounds like pointless effort
18:32:50 <Taneb> And would be made moot by the fact that testing that sort of thing makes me nervous
18:32:56 <Taneb> Heck, dictaphones make me nervous
18:33:36 <oerjan> do a project on galvanic skin response hth
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18:38:58 <oerjan> you don't sound determined enough twh
18:41:13 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: IndeterminantVM is the one with variable-length instructions.
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18:46:07 <int-e> but will it be as powerful as VAX?
18:46:34 <hppavilion[1]> Well, it won't technically be TC because of memory limits.
18:46:36 <fizzie> But will it be as popular as VAX?
18:46:49 <fizzie> All the world's a VAX, as they say.
18:47:34 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: VAX suffers (or suffered?) from that limitation as well.
18:48:03 <int-e> being a real hardware architecture tends to do that ...
18:48:08 <hppavilion[1]> Also, fizzie has blasphemed by actually using formatting over IRC, instead of a visual markup
18:48:38 <hppavilion[1]> But mine will also suffer from that, because it's low-level and thus it must
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18:49:16 <oerjan> i don't see what low-level has to do with it, see: SUBLEQ
18:50:48 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: It won't be TC because it's running on a real computer and has fixed-width arguments.
18:51:17 <hppavilion[1]> Unless I add a "NS" command to create a new "namespace"...
18:52:04 <hppavilion[1]> But even then, I doubt it'd be TC because it could only reference 2**64 addresses/namespace, and it can't do cross-namespace stuff
18:52:24 <int-e> Just do some memory mapped IO that interfaces an infinite tape.
18:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll just do the NS and Accumulator for the eso- factor
18:53:17 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory-mapped_I/O
18:55:52 <int-e> . o O ( Q: what does your work consist of A: manipulating initial states of finite state machine so that they produce interesting, sometimes even useful behaviour )
18:57:39 <oerjan> @tell <mroman> can you discard results without generating a warning? <-- yes. e.g. _ <- ...
18:58:07 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> can you discard results without generating a warning? <-- yes. e.g. _ <- ...
18:59:20 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> I assume thats bad, otherwise there wouldn't be a warning <-- not necessarily, some warnings are very advisory, and that particular one is rather annoying to always silence (disclaimer: i don't use -Wall)
19:02:21 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> Apparentely FlexibleContexts is required as of 7.10 <-- it's more subtle than that. it was always required for type signatures, but now ghc requires extensions even for a purely inferred signature.
19:03:36 <oerjan> @tell mroman I find that last feature rather annoying myself, especially in ghci.
19:04:13 <oerjan> maybe i should just add every relevant extension to .ghci.
19:05:10 <oerjan> step 1: remember what .ghci is named on windows again.
19:05:31 <shachaf> My .ghci turns on >30 extensions.
19:06:25 <oerjan> int-e: it's annoying that you sometimes have to enable extensions specifically for ghci even if it's listed in the file you loaded
19:06:55 <int-e> oerjan: ah but that's not what I was wondering
19:06:58 <oerjan> and that new ghc "feature" that requires extensions for implicit signatures makes that even worse than it used to be
19:07:13 * int-e doesn't know how to use Windows except for playing games.
19:07:15 <oerjan> well then you should clarify your question twh
19:09:38 <oerjan> i must have found it before because i have enabled -fdefer-type-errors
19:11:59 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, you use windows?
19:12:11 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
19:12:28 <oerjan> i'm sure you were fishing for a swat, there
19:12:47 <int-e> that's why I tried to tread more carefully
19:12:59 <int-e> same sentiment though ;-)
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19:13:20 <oerjan> oh this was a shachaf-specific swat, because i'm pretty sure he said just the same thing not more than a week ago
19:13:48 <int-e> how do you manage?
19:14:32 <int-e> are you being forced to use windows?
19:15:39 <int-e> you can ask me about lambdabot maintenance if you want a revenge. (the current state is: prolonged procrastination)
19:16:31 <oerjan> yes, i'd like to ask why @tell accepts ill-formed nicks
19:17:06 <int-e> it's *rolls dice* future-proof?
19:18:09 <oerjan> one day, the nick <mroman> will be legal, and someone is going to get a surprise
19:18:32 <int-e> I should put in some expiration.
19:19:39 <int-e> funny. the @karma data is larger than the @tell one.
19:20:00 <int-e> hmm, grammar. s/data/file/ perhaps
19:20:30 <oerjan> perhaps @karma picks up more accidental stuff?
19:20:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ev3commander * New user account
19:21:53 <int-e> @karma "0bCdef!"F:)-]J{1j?/l2}m[?*
19:21:53 <lambdabot> "0bCdef!"F:)-]J{1j?/l2}m[?* has a karma of 1
19:22:32 <int-e> there's some brainfuck code there as well
19:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Sacred]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44893 * Ev3commander * (+352) Created page with "== Sacred sacred sacred ... == So in mode 2 I can have a language called "Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sacred Sac..."
19:24:28 <int-e> C snippets... more brainfuck code...
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19:25:58 <oerjan> that's pretty low karma for Cale, isn't it
19:26:21 <int-e> the karma has been lost several times...
19:28:04 <int-e> that one used to have 3 digits...
19:28:14 <int-e> (cale's, too, I believe)
19:28:21 * oerjan found it, it was in C:\Users\Ørjan\AppData\Roaming\ghc\ghci.conf
19:29:03 <oerjan> heck if i know. there's probably some way to roam.
19:29:04 <int-e> the rest sort of makes sense.
19:30:19 <oerjan> i think the part before ghc is some kind of standard Windows place to put things
19:30:50 <int-e> "[...] the data that applications had placed in AppData\Roaming would follow you to the machine you logged in on. It would “roam” to whatever machine you happened to use." ... creepy.
19:31:07 <int-e> (from https://askleo.com/whats-the-appdata-roaming-folder/ )
19:32:42 <oerjan> iirc that contains all cabal user-installed packages etc.
19:33:31 <int-e> the article also states that if an application just asks for a place to put some data, that's where it gets pointed to
19:34:35 <oerjan> this, naturally, is part of what gives trouble with cabal and the windows command line length limit.
19:35:25 <oerjan> (occasionally. i haven't experienced it myself, but then i've not installed anything heavier than lens.)
19:35:28 <izabera> i have an idea for an algorithm
19:35:54 <oerjan> any relation to pseudoprimes
19:36:11 <izabera> well that's where the name comes from
19:36:33 <oerjan> hm sounds a bit tricky.
19:36:33 <izabera> first you take a set of say 1000 numbers from 1 to 100000
19:36:47 <izabera> then you compute the gcd of each pair
19:36:55 <izabera> if the gcd isn't 1, those aren't primes
19:37:02 <izabera> keep the gcd unless it's 1
19:37:22 <izabera> if it's 1, find 3 new numbers that weren't in the original set
19:37:41 <oerjan> izabera: actually you cannot discard the smaller number if the gcd is equal to it
19:38:18 <izabera> if it's not 1, find a new number, discard the two. if it's 1, keep them
19:38:34 <izabera> repeat until you have 1000 numbers with no common factor
19:38:39 <oerjan> this reminds me of the fancy vapor algorithm i had in mind for factoring fractran programs
19:39:19 <izabera> what's that fancy vapor thingy?
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19:41:36 <oerjan> basically given a finite set of numbers, you can factor them all into products from a relatively prime basis set
19:42:18 <oerjan> this works even if some of the numbers are too large to factorize normally
19:42:56 <izabera> wait i thought it was an esoteric thingy
19:42:59 <oerjan> so you could use it to turn any fractran program into products of exponents
19:43:11 <oerjan> well it's for an esoteric purpose.
19:43:54 <oerjan> and it'll be polynomial time in the total size of the program.
19:45:22 <oerjan> although if the numbers are small / have only small prime factors, it is likely this is less efficient than normal factoring
19:46:35 <izabera> what does vapor mean in this context?
19:46:45 <oerjan> that i've never written it up completely
19:49:08 <oerjan> although i think it breaks down to two mutually recursive parts
19:50:11 <oerjan> one function that takes a list of relatively prime numbers and a new number and constructs a new list that the new number (and all the old ones) factor into
19:50:28 <oerjan> and one function that just handles two numbers
19:50:58 <int-e> hmm, that's a much better application for factoring-by-gcd than the last one I came across (somebody on ##math asked how to compute the product of all gcds of the non-empty subsets of a given finite set of numbers)
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19:53:13 <int-e> Wow, my infallable comic bookmarking system has... failed. I dropped Questionable Content some time last year.
19:53:35 <gamemanj> int-e: hmm, maybe try an electron app?
19:53:53 <int-e> (at least my spelling of "infallible" was impeccable)
19:53:58 <oerjan> was the dropping intentional, or the actual fall
19:54:17 * oerjan didn't realize the pun until he wrote the last word
19:54:36 <izabera> my first bash script ever was to download all questionable content
19:54:51 <int-e> it wasn't intentional, but it's funny that I didn't miss it.
19:55:09 <int-e> I suspect there have been more victims along the road... :)
19:55:27 <oerjan> izabera: the problem is that the only place big enough to store all questionable content is the internet hth
19:56:00 <b_jonas> izabera: I have 11 comics downloaded (though some of them are partial because they have published more since)
19:56:04 <b_jonas> but not questionable content
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19:57:40 <b_jonas> well, there's a website I should download, but it's not a comic strip
19:57:50 <b_jonas> it has valuable data, but it's also sort of hard to crawl
19:58:02 <int-e> Okay, Questionable Content is sometimes a bit more explicit than Sinfest... it's still quite tame.
19:58:05 <b_jonas> also a website I have downloaded but should republish in a saner format
19:58:13 <b_jonas> lots of people mirror that
19:58:39 <int-e> (Sinfest is really not living up to its name at all, imho. But it's a good webcomic nonethelss.)
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19:59:15 <int-e> izabera: How can you even exist!!!1
19:59:41 <int-e> . o O ( Maybe it has to do with that "real life" thing I'm hearing so much about )
20:00:15 <izabera> oh yes i guess kids like int-e use facebook or that icq thing
20:00:35 <gamemanj> #esoteric : A channel of webcomics, theoretical turing machines, maths, and card game knowledge
20:01:15 <int-e> izabera: I did use ICQ at some point.
20:01:44 <int-e> I had, what, three contacts...
20:02:54 <int-e> wow, 11 apparently.
20:04:53 <b_jonas> int-e: I was quite surprise when I counted that there are 12 irc network to which I have connected at some point
20:05:18 <b_jonas> on other irc network I went for only a small number of channels
20:05:29 <int-e> hmm, ircnet, freenode, efnet and a private one...
20:05:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BotEngine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44894&oldid=44739 * SuperJedi224 * (+204)
20:06:53 <int-e> I mean, sure, why not, but I'm probably not going to find an actual use for the information ;)
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20:34:11 <fizzie> I had an ICQ number that started with 9, which means it was right before they went up in length by one.
20:34:16 <b_jonas> int-e: freenode, freenode test network, efnet, ircnet, quakenet, oftc, perl, slashnet, schmorp, gimpnet, sorcery, athamenet (that one is defunct I think).
20:34:20 <fizzie> It wasn't impressively short, though.
20:34:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: "right before" might mean years
20:34:36 <fizzie> I think I have some sort of ICQ client's dot-rc file somewhere.
20:35:30 <b_jonas> I don't think I have an icq number
20:35:35 <fizzie> Here's the ~/.licq, but where is the number.
20:35:49 <b_jonas> oh, and "b_jonas" is quite unique, I can use it on any network and any website
20:36:07 <b_jonas> occasionally I used other nicks too of course
20:36:18 <fizzie> int-e: There's no such line. There's owner.uin, though, but I didn't see the number there.
20:36:29 <fizzie> Must've skipped it for some reason.
20:36:56 <shachaf> I had a 7-digit ICQ number.
20:37:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44895&oldid=44871 * Hppavilion1 * (+83) Spec info
20:37:30 <int-e> "I"'m in the 200 millions
20:37:35 <fizzie> I've got 32 people in the 'users.conf' file.
20:38:23 <fizzie> Although one of them has the alias "Troll", so...
20:38:35 <fizzie> Most of them I vaguely recall.
20:39:04 <fizzie> Although I have no idea about "[GS]" and "FrEaKaZoId!" and "raccoon".
20:39:45 <fizzie> Also none of them are people I'm still in touch with. :/
20:40:04 <shachaf> who are you still in touch with
20:40:26 <fizzie> Mostly just you guyse.
20:40:52 <shachaf> maybe you should circlify me on icq
20:41:04 <fizzie> Is the network still up and running?
20:41:18 <b_jonas> I don't have an ICQ account
20:41:30 <shachaf> I think the term comes from Google+
20:41:36 <b_jonas> I think I have a My opera account though
20:41:40 <shachaf> I'm not sure what my ICQ account number is.
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20:42:06 <shachaf> Nor which email address I used to register, if any.
20:42:17 <b_jonas> I don't have a geocities account either
20:42:29 <b_jonas> And I don't use usenet news, is that bad?
20:42:32 <fizzie> ~/.licq/owner.uin helpfully has the account password in plaintext, so I might be able to log in.
20:42:48 <b_jonas> But I have some email addresses, two of them active
20:44:33 <fizzie> ~/licq/log.errors has spam in it.
20:44:55 <shachaf> you should send me an Internet Chat Query
20:45:34 <fizzie> "I live in my flat near the university with my boyfriend. One year ago she has offered me to photograph all our girlfriends." I am confused by the gender of these pronouns.
20:49:26 <fizzie> These logs have a hug from 2001.
20:49:43 <fizzie> "You've Been Hugged!! Pass it on to your friends (including me!) and see how many you get back!! -x-"
20:50:25 <shachaf> fizzie: imo more hugs is better
20:50:45 <fizzie> Haskell User's Gofer System.
20:54:04 <int-e> fizzie: well, on here I bet you could earn a couple of swats and mapole beatings that way
20:54:42 <fizzie> fungot: Do you often hug other bots?
20:54:42 <fungot> fizzie: 10 open 1,2,0,chr(10) ( d026) note:
20:56:20 <shachaf> when i made that wisdom entry i thought the initial letters of those words formed the word "hug"
20:57:39 <fizzie> Hags aren't always good, though.
20:58:25 <fizzie> I parse 'haag' as the Hague.
20:58:32 <shachaf> that is also how i parse it
20:58:39 <shachaf> if by parse you mean assign meaning
20:58:49 <fizzie> I think it's that in Finnish. I know it is that in Dutch.
20:59:10 <shachaf> walked by a group of people speaking some scandianvian language yesterday
20:59:37 <shachaf> but i'm not very good at telling them apart :'(
20:59:40 <fizzie> The standard test for Danish is the potato test.
20:59:51 <shachaf> does that involve putting a potato in your mouth?
21:00:17 <fizzie> Only if you want to do it empirically. I think you can also just do it as a thought experiment.
21:00:29 <fizzie> If it sounds like Swedish spoken with a potato in your mouth, it's likely to be Danish.
21:00:49 <fizzie> I'm less sure how you recognize Norwegian.
21:01:11 <fizzie> From a Finnish perspective, maybe if it sounds like Swedish except wrong.
21:01:26 <shachaf> the people of norway are set apart by neither accent norwegian
21:06:03 <shachaf> i don't know how to pull that pun off
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21:07:59 <lambdabot> http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wegian
21:08:39 * int-e doesn't hear the pun.
21:09:01 <fizzie> It took me embarrassingly long to even catch there was something.
21:09:08 <fizzie> I thought it was just some poetic nonsense.
21:12:21 <int-e> (I wasn't aware of the slur before googling it either)
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21:36:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck⁂]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44896&oldid=44895 * Hppavilion1 * (+947) Some new commands
21:39:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniLang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44897 * Hppavilion1 * (+244) Created Page (WIP)
21:46:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/UniLang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44898&oldid=44897 * Hppavilion1 * (+437) Data Model
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21:55:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unicode Arrows]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44899 * Hppavilion1 * (+188) Created Page (WIP)
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22:02:30 <HackEgo> [U+202F NARROW NO-BREAK SPACE]
22:02:39 -!- J_Arcane has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:02:44 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
22:02:53 <int-e> (searching for arrow turned this up and for a moment I was baffled...)
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22:04:34 <HackEgo> [U+237C RIGHT ANGLE WITH DOWNWARDS ZIGZAG ARROW]
22:05:12 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
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22:05:56 <HackEgo> [U+2A17 INTEGRAL WITH LEFTWARDS ARROW WITH HOOK]
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22:23:10 <fizzie> int-e: U+1F502 CLOCKWISE RIGHTWARDS AND LEFTWARDS OPEN CIRCLE ARROWS WITH CIRCLED ONE OVERLAY
22:23:55 <fizzie> (The character with the longest name, ignoring the ARABIC LIGATURE UIGHUR KIRGHIZ YEH WITH HAMZA ABOVE WITH ALEF MAKSURA {ISOLATED,INITIAL,FINAL} FORM and maybe something they've added since I last updated UnicodeData.txt.)
22:24:18 <fizzie> And as far as arrows go, U+2B83 DOWNWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW LEFTWARDS OF UPWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW.
22:24:45 <fizzie> And it's sibling, UPWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW LEFTWARDS OF DOWNWARDS TRIANGLE-HEADED ARROW; also DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB LEFT BESIDE DOWNWARDS HARPOON WITH BARB RIGHT may count.
22:25:20 <boily> there are rows of arrow rosters...
22:29:30 <shachaf> int-e: it was just supposed to be "region"
22:29:37 <shachaf> except i double messed it up
22:32:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44900&oldid=44892 * Vihan * (+142) updated link and description
22:35:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44901&oldid=44620 * Conor O'Brien * (+28)
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22:54:21 <HackEgo> partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
23:08:37 <HackEgo> olist 1010: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti b_jonas
23:14:23 <shachaf> boily: now what's going on twh
23:15:13 <shachaf> boily: i mean in the olist
23:15:57 <shachaf> has the sword done this before
23:16:44 <boily> nope, first time I think. I was going to comment on that fact too.
23:16:50 <boily> divine intervention?
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23:25:54 <boily> rule of cool-flashy-green-sword perhaps.
23:26:03 <boily> hppavilion[1]: hppavellon[1].
23:27:19 <shachaf> boily: i think a hello might not be sufficient
23:27:29 <shachaf> you might need to go for an esello
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23:30:18 <boily> ++++++++[>+>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++>+++++++++++>++++++++++++>+++++++++++++>++++++++++++++>+++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
23:30:20 <boily> ----.++++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>-.+<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>--.++<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>+++.---<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>+.-<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>---.+++<<<<<<<<<<<<.
23:31:06 <boily> that should be porteselloteric enough.
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23:34:54 <shachaf> boily: one wonders what the last sentence of http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0297.html was going to be
23:37:21 <boily> can't thing of anything :/
23:40:27 <boily> googling it, and not much was found. people seem to agree that it was simply a case of I'll-gladly-take-it-no-questions-asked.
23:42:18 <boily> 297 definitely explains the why of the glow. we just saw it happen live $((1010 - 297)) comics later.
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23:44:30 <fizzie> Didn't we already see that?
23:44:58 <fizzie> Maybe I'm imagining that.
23:46:56 <fizzie> There's a green glow in 442 and 861.
23:47:05 <fizzie> Especially clear in 861.
23:47:16 <fizzie> `thanks http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Greenhilt_Sword
23:47:17 <HackEgo> Thanks, http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Greenhilt_Sword. Thoots.wikia.com/wiki/Greenhilt_Sword.
23:48:27 <fizzie> (There are links to a couple of other examples.)
23:49:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nary]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44902 * Conor O'Brien * (+1434) Created page with "'''Nary''' (pronounced "enn-airy") is a programming language "skin" that was created by [[User:Conor_O'Brien]]. It's purpose is to be very successful at programs that have a s..."
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23:52:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Unicode Arrows]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44903&oldid=44899 * Hppavilion1 * (+94) Idea (WIP)
23:56:28 <shachaf> boily: we've seen it plenty of times
23:58:42 <shachaf> the ones fizzie mentioned and also 886, 898, some others
23:58:50 <shachaf> 898 didn't even involve any undea
00:00:10 <shachaf> but this is the first one that made his eyes green
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00:02:22 <boily> I stand corrected.
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00:52:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44904&oldid=44902 * Conor O'Brien * (+1734)
00:56:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44905&oldid=44904 * Conor O'Brien * (+127)
00:57:34 <\oren\> Isabel Hoffmann is a nutcase
00:58:52 <\oren\> https://pando.com/2015/10/22/what-hell-facing-backlash-tellspec-ceo-now-flatly-denies-it-was-her-who-emailed-messaged-or-called-pando-threaten-lawsuit/
00:59:39 <\oren\> I'm glad Dad got out while he could
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01:01:55 <\oren\> fizzie: are those characters you want me to add?
01:04:10 <fizzie> \oren\: I'm not using your font, so I don't have opinions on its repertoire, except that I think when it comes to arrows, you should add in full blocks instead of individual characters.
01:05:32 <\oren\> I shoudl go thorugh some of the blocks for gaps
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01:11:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Conor O'Brien]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44906&oldid=44901 * Conor O'Brien * (+25)
01:22:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Simplex]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44907 * Conor O'Brien * (+315) Created page with "'''Simplex''' is an in-progress, single-command programming language made by [[User:Conor O'Brien]]. It can be thought of also as a 1D language. It is expected to be in a work..."
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01:26:16 <izabera> totally confused, this http://arin.ga/fi2bCF/raw scores 97.5% on this https://www.codeeval.com/open_challenges/211/
01:28:42 <Lymia> Does that account for letter case?
01:29:18 <Lymia> The specification is weird.
01:29:23 <izabera> well i tried with the case insensitive option and it still scored 97.5%
01:29:31 <Lymia> Are we supposed to assume two names will never match all the letters?
01:33:47 <Lymia> I don't think so. But a site like this should at least say something about such an obvious edge condition.
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01:34:14 <Lymia> "Chardonnay Sauvignon | ann"
01:34:20 <Lymia> Would your program get this test case right?
01:34:31 <Lymia> I assume it means you have to match two ns, and not something with only one
01:34:55 <Lymia> ... not that the specification says that
01:41:31 <fizzie> It also doesn't say what should happen if Tom remembered no letters. Not that they're likely to test that either.
01:50:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Luis Mendo * New user account
01:51:12 <\oren\> I got a new mp3 player
01:54:28 <\oren\> it has the abilty to pick up FM radio and save it to an mp3 file
01:56:16 <zgrep> Let's start a revolution, then.
01:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MATL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44908 * Luis Mendo * (+1013) Created page with "'''MATL''' is a programming language based on MATLAB and suitable for code golfing. The MATL language is [[stack]]-oriented. Data are pushed onto and popped out of a stack. F..."
02:01:33 <fizzie> MATLAB for code golfing.
02:15:50 <izabera> a huge library helps with golfing
02:20:08 <zgrep> To a certain extent.
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02:22:52 <izabera> that's why mathematica is so used on codegolf.se
02:32:04 <Lymia> Something occurs to me.
02:34:17 <zgrep> How often does such a thing happen?
02:34:37 <Lymia> For code golf purposes, why exactly are we sticking to printable characters, one command per character again
02:34:44 * Lymia kicks zgrep in the crotch
02:36:36 <zgrep> Lymia: Though it's no longer really active, http://rhoscript.com/. And there are other languages that overload characters.
02:37:08 <zgrep> But probably to be easier to type.
03:05:12 <FireFly> Lymia: there's a number of languages intended to work around that, but on codegolf.SE that is generally frowned upon
03:05:53 <FireFly> or rather, they consider it a "standard loophole" and usually measure code in bytes of UTF-8, or bytes-of-encoding-of-your-choice or such when it gets down to it
03:06:19 <FireFly> although that means you could still define meaning to bytes outside the ASCII range
03:06:57 <Lymia> I'm not talking about that at all.
03:07:51 <FireFly> maybe I misunderstood then
03:07:55 <Lymia> Non-printable characters means... you know. "bytes outside the ASCII range" :|
03:08:12 <Lymia> And "one command per character" refers to not using bit encodings if you can't actually fill 8 bits per command
03:11:45 <FireFly> So something like using Huffman coding from the commads?
03:12:13 <Lymia> Something like that
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04:55:12 <Jafet> perl eval unpack is pretty standard these days.
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06:52:15 <b_jonas> oh, someone has rang the obell
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08:42:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44909&oldid=44900 * 160.85.232.162 * (+31) + cat:golfing language
08:45:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44910&oldid=44385 * 160.85.232.162 * (+30) + cat:golfing language
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08:53:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 54m 56s ago: <mroman> can you discard results without generating a warning? <-- yes. e.g. _ <- ...
08:53:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 53m 44s ago: <mroman> I assume thats bad, otherwise there wouldn't be a warning <-- not necessarily, some warnings are very advisory, and that particular one is rather annoying to always silence (disclaimer: i don't use -Wall)
08:53:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 50m 42s ago: <mroman> Apparentely FlexibleContexts is required as of 7.10 <-- it's more subtle than that. it was always required for type signatures, but now ghc requires extensions even for a purely inferred signature.
08:53:04 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 49m 27s ago: I find that last feature rather annoying myself, especially in ghci.
08:53:21 <mroman> oerjan: _ <- is exactly what generates a warning.
08:54:47 <oerjan> mroman: no, it doesn't.
08:54:48 <mroman> or maybe I'm remembering it wrong
08:55:06 <oerjan> it's what the warning suggests you do...
08:56:18 <mroman> Maybe mapM_ will shut it up too
08:56:33 <mroman> I think you can discard (), right?
08:58:16 <mroman> I also have dozens of "defined but not used" warnings.
08:58:50 <oerjan> you're supposed to use _ as prefix for unused variables
08:58:56 <mroman> Defaulting the following constraint(s) to type ‘Integer’ (Integral a0) arising from a use of ‘fromIntegral’
08:59:00 <mroman> ^- and a couple of these
08:59:09 <oerjan> yes, those are annoying
08:59:20 <mroman> How do you get rid of those?
08:59:53 <mroman> In the first argument of ‘(/)’, namely
08:59:53 <mroman> ‘fromIntegral (round (n * factor))’
08:59:54 <mroman> In the expression: fromIntegral (round (n * factor)) / factor
09:00:30 <oerjan> -fno-warn-type-defaults, i think https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/latest/docs/html/users_guide/flag-reference.html#idp14879296
09:00:45 <mroman> I don't want to silence the warning, I want to get rid of it ;)
09:00:57 <oerjan> then you need a type annotation
09:01:59 <oerjan> and you can never write simple code like x^2 + 2*x + 1 again hth
09:02:08 <mroman> I like how ghc can infer stuff
09:02:25 <mroman> but on the other hand you should always specify the exact type
09:02:41 <oerjan> i'm talking about for the ^2 exponent.
09:02:54 <oerjan> it doesn't matter if x is fixed
09:03:33 <mroman> you mean I have to write x^(2::Int) or something like that?
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09:44:39 <b_jonas> Wow, you can find some nice useful software libraries on the internet if you just look
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10:12:43 <mroman> Well, I've managed to train my neural network to calculate f(x) = 1 - x
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10:13:17 <b_jonas> mroman: great, in what representation of numbers?
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10:15:02 <mroman> I'm a total ANN newbie
10:15:32 <mroman> http://codepad.org/Qwc2S0vu
10:15:43 <mroman> I've trained it with f(1), f(0) and f(0.5)
10:15:54 <mroman> and it manages to do f(0.2) f(0.8) f(0.4) correctly based on that
10:16:22 <b_jonas> mroman: oh, so is this a neutral network that takes real numbers as its input and output, and does real number calculations on it? I see
10:16:26 <mroman> out is the output neuron, in the input neuron
10:16:49 <mroman> out <- b_3 means that neuron b_3 is connected to out
10:16:56 <mroman> and the numbers are the weights
10:17:12 <j-bot> b_jonas: 0 1 0.5 0.6 0.8 0.2
10:18:06 <b_jonas> [ |4.5810405179002624E-10 0.9999999990583239 0.49999999975821413 0.5999999996182361 0.7999999993382801 0.2000000001781481 - 1 - 1 0 0.5 0.4 0.2 0.8
10:18:06 <j-bot> b_jonas: |ill-formed number
10:18:12 <b_jonas> [ |4.5810405179002624e-10 0.9999999990583239 0.49999999975821413 0.5999999996182361 0.7999999993382801 0.2000000001781481 - 1 - 1 0 0.5 0.4 0.2 0.8
10:18:12 <j-bot> b_jonas: |ill-formed number
10:18:18 <b_jonas> [ |4.5810405179002624e_10 0.9999999990583239 0.49999999975821413 0.5999999996182361 0.7999999993382801 0.2000000001781481 - 1 - 1 0 0.5 0.4 0.2 0.8
10:18:19 <j-bot> b_jonas: 4.58104e_10 9.41676e_10 2.41786e_10 3.81764e_10 6.6172e_10 1.78148e_10
10:18:49 <mroman> errsum = 1.9925257041341184E-8
10:18:58 <b_jonas> [ +/|4.5810405179002624e_10 0.9999999990583239 0.49999999975821413 0.5999999996182361 0.7999999993382801 0.2000000001781481 - 1 - 1 0 0.5 0.4 0.2 0.8
10:18:59 <mroman> that's pretty close, yes ;)
10:18:59 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2.8632e_9
10:19:06 <fizzie> Isn't it amazing, how complicated mappings a neural network may learn!
10:19:27 <mroman> Now I'm gonna teach it to square the shit out of numbers
10:20:16 <fizzie> Did you know that a feed-forward network with a single finite hidden layer is a universal approximator?
10:22:32 <mroman> looks like it can't learn how to square stuff
10:24:03 <fizzie> It can certainly learn how to square stuff within an interval, if you have enough training data and neurons.
10:24:17 <fizzie> Or, well, how to approximately square stuff.
10:25:02 <mroman> an error sum of 276 is too high
10:25:12 <mroman> that means: no fucking way this network with this layout can learn to do that
10:29:21 <b_jonas> mroman: or more input samples
10:30:24 <mroman> I need to teach my neurons to not only sum up inputs
10:30:35 <mroman> the problem is with the usual weight * input
10:30:44 <mroman> you can't get from a input 0 to an output of 1
10:30:57 <mroman> errsum_new := 0.07792577232358111
10:31:24 <mroman> oh well that's fairly close
10:31:31 <b_jonas> mroman: you could try to teach it x*(1-x) instead
10:31:40 <mroman> http://codepad.org/oGJGUfjv
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10:36:57 <fizzie> The "usual" weight * input? That's not the usual. The usual is weight * input + bias.
10:46:00 <Jafet> Ah yes, universal approximation theorem: for any continuous monotone function, there exists a neural network that kinda vaguely resembles that function, and your backprop may or may not find it.
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10:52:50 <boily> Jafellot. isn't that an extremely weak theorem: for every thing that exists, there exists something else that may or may not be found.
10:53:33 <fizzie> There's also a number of things that don't exist, though.
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11:00:07 <gamemanj> boily: It says your backprop may or may not find it... if you brute-forced every single possible neural net, you may find it.
11:01:03 <mroman> http://codepad.org/JqS87pTF
11:01:10 <mroman> That's as close as my weird-network can get
11:01:29 <mroman> which is reasonably close
11:11:34 <boily> all neurons are weird.
11:11:35 <mroman> let's see if it can learn factorial
11:12:53 <mroman> f(9) := 450467.7218227489
11:15:58 <boily> > abs (450467.72 - 362880) / 362880 * 100
11:16:09 <boily> only 24% relative error. not so bad.
11:17:18 <b_jonas> mroman: try to make it learn a step function
11:20:00 <b_jonas> mroman: eg. similar to the function 0.16329<=x&&x<0.69431 to which http://dpaste.com/240EM18 gives input-output pairs
11:21:20 <mroman> I'm actually more "evolving" it
11:22:27 <b_jonas> http://plotshare.com/index.ws/plot/645669689 gives a plot
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11:25:13 <mroman> f(6) := 720.0000109336563
11:25:13 <mroman> f(7) := 5040.0007788950525
11:25:14 <mroman> f(8) := 40320.00003472659
11:25:14 <mroman> f(9) := 335186.6552867455
11:25:34 <mroman> still not really accurate :(
11:25:59 <mroman> It's accurate within the trained range
11:26:58 <j-bot> b_jonas: 720 5040 40320 362880
11:33:25 <mroman> so there's some randomness involved in training actually
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11:50:50 <HackEgo> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
11:51:11 <Jafet> (just found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Imperial_Coat_of_Arms_of_the_Empire_of_Austria.svg)
11:55:24 <mroman> f(9) := 363064.5772012372
11:55:39 <mroman> f(10) := 3622810.622599557
11:56:27 <mroman> > fromIntegral (product [1..11]) - 3.9573572239199296E7
11:57:53 <Jafet> Learning the gamma function?
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12:35:26 <mroman> ok... why is my last line shown twice
12:38:51 <FireFly> mroman: perhaps you could see if it manages to approximate the gamma function between integers in the range you have trained it for
12:39:39 <FireFly> or train with integers 1,2,3,4,6,7 and see if it manages to interpolate fac(5)
12:45:53 <int-e> ah, GG... anyone should've seen this coming...
12:52:36 <mroman> does anybody know how I can tell php's passthru to actually print stdout back to me?
12:52:41 <mroman> I mean... that's what passthru should be for
12:52:47 <mroman> but it's not doing it's job correctly as it seems
13:06:50 <FreeFull> Jafet: That coat of arms is mega-decorated
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18:37:05 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z0DO0XyS8Ko
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18:43:11 <oerjan> gamemanj: wither confuseth thee?
18:44:19 * gamemanj falls asleep due to confusion!
18:45:16 <oerjan> i'm sorry, we cannot help you with this little information, please provide a minimal reproducible example twh
18:57:37 <oerjan> <int-e> ah, GG... anyone should've seen this coming... <-- which part in particular twh
18:57:51 <oerjan> @ask int-e <int-e> ah, GG... anyone should've seen this coming... <-- which part in particular twh
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18:59:07 <shachaf> oerjan: spot of the olist, governor?
18:59:15 <shachaf> do you know what the green eye thing is
19:00:15 <oerjan> i dunno but i noticed the effect healed roy
19:01:20 <oerjan> i'm wondering if that dwarf who lied originally and said the sword was starmetal was part of some conspiracy
19:01:56 <oerjan> to make sure the sword would _become_ starmetal
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19:03:26 <oerjan> if it was simply roy becoming "no holds barred" then you'd expect the same effect in the fight with xykon
19:04:43 <oerjan> perhaps it's just a matter of degree
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19:16:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Algebra]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44911&oldid=43998 * Oerjan * (+7) link, grm
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19:30:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeathScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44912&oldid=43979 * Oerjan * (+148) wikify
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19:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44913&oldid=44055 * Oerjan * (+3) wikify
19:38:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] to [[Ingredients-oriented paradigm]]: case
19:47:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flower]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44915&oldid=44006 * Oerjan * (+8) citation needed
19:51:51 <oerjan> @tell ais523 the WUUI article contains an unmatched ), i'm not sure what it's supposed to say.
19:59:14 <int-e> oerjan: <-- which part in particular twh <-- well, all of it, the emphasis was on the use of "anyone".
20:01:25 <int-e> I know. But I refuse to apologize.
20:03:03 <int-e> Or should I say that anyone could've understood what I meant...
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20:13:38 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/y8VCTGX what does elbowing mean?
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20:24:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SPBCL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44916&oldid=44019 * Oerjan * (+19) Some proofreading
20:24:30 <izabera> oh it looks like he hit someone with an elbow
20:24:46 <izabera> i thought it was a very offensive gesture
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20:29:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph rewriting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44917&oldid=44027 * Oerjan * (+0) case
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20:36:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ShortScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44918&oldid=44044 * Oerjan * (+58) unsigned
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20:41:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44919&oldid=44047 * Oerjan * (+3) fmt (argh, cannot find a way to put code blocks inside :::)
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22:07:46 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, I'd invent an infinite system of values entirely unlike numbers, create a standard encoding for them, and start defining things about them (operations, order, bitwise encodings, etc.)
22:10:58 <hppavilion[1]> I'd have weird things like ternary relations (unlike order theory, which studies binary relations) and my own sort of hyperoperations that work with any sort of esonumber
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22:54:04 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll make my own geometry-oriented programming language
22:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> Though mine will allow you to create new points without constructing them; however, this is highly discouraged
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23:35:46 <zemhill> web.fdsafdsa: points -34.98, score 1.99, rank 47/47
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00:03:04 <hppavilion[1]> I always had him come up when I hit tab looking for zzo, but I always assumed it was a person...
00:11:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44920&oldid=44680 * SuperJedi224 * (-2)
00:11:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44921&oldid=44920 * SuperJedi224 * (+13)
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00:13:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44922 * SuperJedi224 * (+95) Created page with "'''Microscript II''' is an upcoming dynamically-typed successor to [[Microscript|Microscript.]]"
00:14:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TeaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44923&oldid=44909 * Vihan * (+442)
00:15:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44924&oldid=44922 * SuperJedi224 * (+64)
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01:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44925&oldid=44924 * SuperJedi224 * (+15)
01:22:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44926&oldid=44925 * SuperJedi224 * (+7)
01:31:56 <\oren\> On averge how many photons are there in a cubic metre?
01:52:03 <zzo38> I made the program to convert a PBM picture into a compact representation of a sequence of boxes to print using TeX, although the TeX program I implemented to read them supports macros and overlays which my conversion program does not yet implement. You can see if you know how to improve my program to support those things though.
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02:18:57 <zgrep> \oren\: Depends on whether it's day or night, whether or not you turn on the light, etc.
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03:28:43 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any more cool number dealy things (xD) other than operators and relations?
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09:28:56 <mroman> It would be nice if lambdabot were to tell you "you have messages" on joins.
09:29:25 <mroman> then I don't have to write fn.rd everytime I join :D
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10:07:37 <fizzie> "Time to Work: ETA: 0 min", says the phone. It must be offering a teleport option.
10:07:57 <b_jonas> or a work from home option
10:08:03 <b_jonas> isn't that what the telephone is for?
10:08:55 <fizzie> Yes, maybe it's some sort of a comment on how you're never not working these days.
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10:56:57 <oerjan> <mroman> It would be nice if lambdabot were to tell you "you have messages" on joins. <-- that would be rather annoying for those people with shaky connections. otoh they should fix them.
10:57:35 <boily> I don't shake connexions. it's bad manners.
10:58:39 <int-e> and useless for people who never join ;)
10:59:27 * oerjan puts his left connexion in, his left connexion out, his left in, and shakes it all about
10:59:39 <oerjan> oops i missed a connexion
11:00:07 <oerjan> that's what happens when you try to look up the lyrics at the same time you're writing :(
11:01:28 <boily> connection is one of those rare words were French spelling (x) makes more sense than English (ct).
11:04:12 <boily> I'd still like to subscribe to an auto-massages service from lambdie.
11:05:58 <oerjan> maybe you could configure your client to send @messages? automatically
11:12:35 * oerjan guesses tswett is trying to make up for a lack of them
11:13:08 <tswett> So yesterday I learned what the "main loop" of Magic: the Gathering is.
11:13:46 <tswett> Namely: If there's anything that happens "when a player would receive priority", then it happens. Otherwise, a player receives priority.
11:19:34 <boily> are there cases where explicitely invoking the main loop is a good strategic move?
11:21:54 <tswett> I'm not sure what "explicitly invoking the main loop" would entail.
11:23:58 <mroman> how do I add vertical spacing before and after a \begin{...}?
11:24:07 <mroman> this default behaviour of no margin is just plain bullshit
11:25:11 <boily> tswett: there are weird corner cases in Magic. I don't know how nor why nor when, but I wouldn't be surprised if there were recorded anecdotes of somebody saying "main loop" in a tournament.
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11:30:26 <mroman> \begin{align} looks much better than \begin{math}
11:30:34 <mroman> align has indeed some implicit vspace of some sort
11:30:38 <mroman> and stuff is right aligned neatly
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12:16:19 <mroman> oerjan: Not if it tells you "new message" on every join.
12:16:35 <mroman> until you ask for them.
12:16:49 <mroman> worst case you have like uhm 20 times "New message" in a query window
12:16:52 <mroman> shouldn't be a big deal.
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12:17:34 <b_jonas> it could tell you new message on join ONCE, then new message on speech ONCE
12:17:43 <b_jonas> isn't this why we have memoserv?
12:17:53 <b_jonas> memoserv works even if you don't join anything
12:18:27 <b_jonas> the advantage of memoserv is that there's no race condition
12:19:11 <b_jonas> in lambdabot, the command to read the messages also deletes them, so if you get disconnected (or your computer just crashes) after you send the message, the messages are lots forever even if you haven't read them
12:19:24 <b_jonas> memoserv takes a better approach: there's separate commands for reading and deleting messages
12:20:49 <mroman> but yeah, looks like a better approach
12:31:40 <b_jonas> There's a problem with it of course: some people never read their memos, or never delete them, so their memo inbox is full or useless.
12:32:08 <b_jonas> (If you _deliberately_ don't want to read memos, you can set an option where memoserv refuses any memos sent to you, but most people just do this by accident.)
12:33:11 <b_jonas> Also, the memoserv messages are a bit ugly and not geared towards automatic parsing, but whatever.
12:33:35 <b_jonas> But of course, if you want to send me a message, you can use email.
12:36:10 <gamemanj> the only command that exists is "help"
12:36:26 <gamemanj> I'm guessing I have to be nickserv'd?
12:36:51 <b_jonas> you get a memoserv inbox per nickserv account,
12:37:02 <b_jonas> and you can send memos only if you are logged in to nickserv
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12:44:51 <oerjan> well that is also the advantage of lambdabot, you can send messages to unregistered people
12:45:27 <oerjan> alas, with very little security and limited reliability
12:47:27 <b_jonas> emails are great, and most people use them
12:51:10 <b_jonas> (though apparently some people use facebooks and twitters instead, or something)
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12:59:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44927&oldid=44926 * SuperJedi224 * (+609)
13:00:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44928&oldid=44927 * SuperJedi224 * (+32)
13:01:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44929&oldid=44928 * SuperJedi224 * (+46)
13:08:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44930&oldid=44929 * SuperJedi224 * (+44)
13:08:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44931&oldid=44930 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
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13:20:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44932&oldid=44931 * SuperJedi224 * (+1097)
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13:34:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44933&oldid=44932 * SuperJedi224 * (+555)
13:36:43 <Taneb> It's a journal where I keep my face collection
13:36:44 <mroman> Is that that thing from the nineties?
13:37:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44934&oldid=44933 * SuperJedi224 * (+476)
13:37:26 <mroman> `learn Facebook is Taneb's face collection.
13:37:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'facebook': Facebook is Taneb's face collection.
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13:38:59 <int-e> (this may explain their obsession with glasses)
13:40:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44935&oldid=44934 * SuperJedi224 * (+352)
13:41:07 <HackEgo> algorithm/Algorithms (derived from the medieval "algorisms") are popular sayings by former president Al Gore, except for God's Algorithm which was invented by a Google computer cluster.
13:41:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44937&oldid=44935 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
13:41:18 <HackEgo> füngöt/Füngöt is the German pronunciation of fungot.
13:41:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44938&oldid=44937 * SuperJedi224 * (+8)
13:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44939&oldid=44938 * SuperJedi224 * (+479)
13:48:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44940&oldid=44939 * SuperJedi224 * (+232)
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13:55:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44941&oldid=44940 * SuperJedi224 * (+87) /* Instructions */
14:02:57 <fizzie> fungot: Say something in German?
14:02:57 <fungot> fizzie: a load with a resolution of the error. the ram screen data is expected) by using poke statements. as division by two is nothing more than enough register locations to the right.
14:04:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44942&oldid=44941 * SuperJedi224 * (+561) /* Instructions */
14:05:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44943&oldid=44942 * SuperJedi224 * (+251) /* Instructions */
14:08:55 <Jafet> fungot unterhalt uns nur mit dem Datenpoken.
14:08:55 <fungot> Jafet: 30 get a character with character code may be an input device is sent. after the buffer, and
14:10:22 <fizzie> Das komputermaschine ist nicht für der gefingerpoken und mittengraben.
14:11:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44944&oldid=44943 * SuperJedi224 * (+66) /* Instructions */
14:13:51 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights "Some computers had a diagnostic display very similar to many SciFi movies, where the blinking lights represented the high byte address (XX__) vertically, and the low byte address (__XX) horizontally on an 8x8 matrix of lights." what does that even mean
14:15:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44945&oldid=44944 * SuperJedi224 * (+102) /* Instructions */
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14:25:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44946&oldid=44945 * SuperJedi224 * (+581) /* Instructions */
14:26:22 <Jafet> Maybe you need to watch a SciFi movie to find out.
14:29:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44947&oldid=44946 * SuperJedi224 * (+122) /* Instructions */
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14:36:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44948&oldid=44947 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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14:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44949&oldid=44948 * SuperJedi224 * (+81)
14:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44950&oldid=44949 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
14:39:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44951&oldid=44950 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
14:40:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44952&oldid=44951 * SuperJedi224 * (+83)
14:44:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44953&oldid=44952 * SuperJedi224 * (+127) /* Instructions */
14:44:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44954&oldid=44953 * SuperJedi224 * (+40) /* Types */
14:47:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44955&oldid=44954 * SuperJedi224 * (+166) /* Instructions */
14:52:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44956&oldid=44955 * SuperJedi224 * (+77) /* Instructions */
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15:11:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44957&oldid=44956 * SuperJedi224 * (+50) /* Instructions */
15:15:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44958&oldid=44957 * SuperJedi224 * (+279) /* Instructions */
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15:19:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44959&oldid=44958 * SuperJedi224 * (+81)
15:20:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44960&oldid=44959 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* Instructions */
15:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44961&oldid=44960 * SuperJedi224 * (+32) /* Types */
15:22:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44962&oldid=44961 * SuperJedi224 * (+70) /* Types */
15:22:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44963&oldid=44962 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* Types */
15:24:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44964&oldid=44963 * SuperJedi224 * (+66) /* Instructions */
15:25:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44965&oldid=42778 * 110.15.23.163 * (+73) /* External resources */
15:26:40 <mroman> http://codepad.org/UFcXJsOv <- fascinating
15:28:25 <mroman> how jaxb needs weird wrapper types to make this work
15:28:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44966&oldid=44964 * SuperJedi224 * (+586)
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15:29:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44967&oldid=44966 * SuperJedi224 * (-1)
15:30:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44968&oldid=44967 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Stringifying Objects */
15:34:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44969&oldid=44968 * SuperJedi224 * (+452)
15:41:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44970&oldid=44969 * SuperJedi224 * (+469) /* Instructions */
15:41:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44971&oldid=44970 * SuperJedi224 * (+6) /* Example Programs */
15:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44972&oldid=44971 * SuperJedi224 * (+43) /* Example Programs */
15:49:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44973&oldid=44972 * SuperJedi224 * (-4) /* Roll 1048576d4 */
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16:30:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44974&oldid=44973 * SuperJedi224 * (+17)
16:35:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44975&oldid=44974 * SuperJedi224 * (+497) /* Instructions */
16:38:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44976&oldid=44975 * SuperJedi224 * (-3) /* Roll 1048576d4 */
16:45:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44977&oldid=44976 * SuperJedi224 * (+426) /* Instructions */
16:46:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44978&oldid=44977 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Instructions */
16:47:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44979&oldid=44978 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* Instructions */
16:48:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44980&oldid=44979 * SuperJedi224 * (+235) /* Instructions */
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16:56:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44981&oldid=44980 * SuperJedi224 * (+64) /* Example Programs */
16:56:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44982&oldid=44981 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Hello, World! */
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17:07:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44983&oldid=44982 * SuperJedi224 * (+26) /* Example Programs */
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17:30:32 <izabera> literally 100% of the interviewers pointed out that monica bellucci is the oldest bond girl ever
17:30:39 <izabera> and she can't even tell them to fuck off
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17:58:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44984&oldid=44983 * SuperJedi224 * (+195)
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18:53:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lemon enthusiast * New user account
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20:05:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44985&oldid=44984 * SuperJedi224 * (-1) /* Example Programs */
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21:47:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44986&oldid=44985 * SuperJedi224 * (+121) /* Instructions */
21:50:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44987&oldid=44986 * SuperJedi224 * (+99) /* Instructions */
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23:05:03 <myname> you just have to look it up?
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23:39:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lemon enthusiast]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44988 * Lemon enthusiast * (+50) Created page with "Lemon enthusiast is currently creating an esolang."
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00:03:07 <tswett> Just took one of those Magic: the Gathering rules tests.
00:04:21 <tswett> Stuff I got wrong: Casting both halves of a fuse card counts as casting just one spell. Text is a characteristic. Vintage and Legacy are the only Eternal Constructed formats.
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00:27:16 <zgrep> boily: Sounds painful.
00:27:52 <boily> zgrellop. it's the best kind of massages.
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00:31:32 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
00:31:34 <HackEgo> mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW)
00:32:11 <boily> @tell mroman your twiceunderscored wisdomnick isn't very useful. please correct twh
00:35:06 <tswett> More wrong stuff. In Two-Headed Giant, you attack teams, not players. If an object would change zones until X happens, but X has already happened, it doesn't change zones. When a fuse spell resolves, the left half works first. At Regular REL, the organizer can have players in a draft play outside their draft pod.
00:36:14 <boily> tswellott. studying to become a judge?
00:36:22 <tswett> Also, I failed to apply logic in one case.
00:37:51 <zgrep> He very we l lone?
00:38:15 <boily> it's a porthello. a hello portmanteau.
00:39:13 <tswett> I still think the word should be "portmantelleau".
00:39:34 <zgrep> <-- this random stranger is inclined to agree with tswett
00:42:18 <olsner> alexandr'ello portmantoily
00:43:11 <coppro> or at least a portemanteau
00:43:23 <coppro> (portemanteau is a portemanteau of porter and portmanteau)
00:44:00 <olsner> or the teau of a port man
00:44:46 <tswett> `learn "Portmanteau" is the French spelling of "port man toe".
00:44:48 <HackEgo> Learned '"portmanteau"': "Portmanteau" is the French spelling of "port man toe".
00:45:31 <tswett> Now, in Magic, every so often there's an effect that restricts your choice of creatures to attack with. Sometimes, multiple of these effects contradict each other.
00:45:42 <tswett> In that case, you must obey the greatest possible number of restrictions.
00:46:09 <tswett> I find it kind of interesting that it's "the greatest possible number of restrictions" rather than "a maximal set of restrictions".
00:46:43 <olsner> are similar restrictions counted twice?
00:47:19 <tswett> I think so. I don't know about identical restrictions.
00:54:02 <boily> `` rm 'wisdom/"portmanteau"'
00:54:28 <boily> `le/rn portmanteau/«Portmanteau» is the French spelling of “port man toe”.
00:55:20 <tswett> Yeah, yours is better.
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01:05:58 <\oren\> trudeau is the french version fo true dough
01:09:36 <boily> pumpkins are nice!
01:09:49 <boily> trudeau is the French version of trou d'eau.
01:09:58 <zgrep> Mine have a habit on not becoming my friends, unlike boily apparently. :(
01:11:05 <boily> you have to assert dominance over the Vegetable Kingdom.
01:11:27 <boily> for example, tonight I cooked a large batch of sambar.
01:11:31 <tswett> Huh. I managed to never know that if a spell is countered, it's removed from the stack.
01:11:48 <tswett> I thought that it remained on the stack, and simply went to the graveyard with no effect upon resolution.
01:12:26 <boily> huh? it disappears from the stack? that can't be right.
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01:14:37 <tswett> Well, it goes from the stack to the graveyard.
01:15:08 <tswett> It doesn't go into the actually-removed-from-the-game-and-not-just-exiled zone.
01:15:14 <tswett> Nor, for that matter, the exile zone.
01:17:22 <tswett> Now, if you "play with the top card of your library revealed", exactly when do you have to reveal it? Is it a state-based action?
01:20:53 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. please halp.
01:21:18 <coppro> tswett: no, it's immediate
01:21:34 <tswett> So if you draw seven cards, you have to reveal each card before you draw it?
01:21:53 <coppro> this is in part due to a separate rule stating that each card draw must be processed individually
01:22:05 <coppro> if you exile the top N cards of your library face down, you don't reveal them all
01:34:45 <tswett> "Once Azure Mage has been destroyed, as a state-based action, its ability ceases to exist." That sounds like the sort of thing that *would* be in the rules.
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01:42:43 <HackEgo> nimby/NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
01:43:00 <coppro> boily: have you updated wisdom.pdf recently?
01:43:45 <boily> >_>'... <_<;... eeeeeeh... v_v;...
01:44:32 <tswett> Yowch. 50% on that one.
01:44:40 <tswett> It's like my knowledge of the rules is decreasing as I keep taking tests.
01:45:41 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0300 COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT]
01:45:53 <boily> my ruse is unveiled!
01:46:35 <boily> I shall disappear in a puff of chicken!
01:46:39 <\oren\> I don't have combining accents in my font... I could have sworn I added them noni
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01:49:35 <tswett> Hmm. Apparently with Isochron Scepter, if the imprinted card ceases to be exiled, its activated ability, which says "you may copy the exiled card", has no effect.
01:50:03 <pikhq> I'm certain this comes up a lot.
01:50:21 <tswett> What I expected was that the phrase "the exiled card" would continue to refer to the same card. There's a rule that says something along those lines.
01:50:56 <tswett> But apparently, the phrase "the exiled card" actually no longer refers to anything.
01:57:28 <tswett> What else did I get wrong, here...
01:59:06 <tswett> Given two continuous effects, if there's nothing else to distinguish them, the later effect overrides the earlier one, not vice versa.
01:59:38 <tswett> The phrase "you may" does not make a spell or ability modal.
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03:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> I mentioned this earlier but no one seemed to be on
03:15:39 <hppavilion[1]> cs("abc")+cs("cba"), for example, is equal to the set of strings {"abccba", "cbaabc"}
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03:22:09 <\oren\> I am constantly in need of a regex operator with that meaning
03:23:00 <\oren\> e.g. if the operator was \@ then /foo\@bar/ would match foobar or barfoo
03:24:04 <\oren\> without this operator, you have to list all permutations
03:29:48 <izabera> what do you need that for?
03:34:06 <\oren\> for matching something like (upper left|left upper)
03:34:21 <\oren\> and various things like that
03:36:19 <\oren\> when the user could say two things in either order, but must say both, it's annoying to have to repeat the patter
03:37:34 <izabera> the trailing space is kind of a problem, isn't it?
03:50:59 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Oh! I thought of that AGES ago as the & operator and have been half tempted to figure out who's in charge of standard regexes and suggest it!
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04:16:01 <zgrep> hppavilion[1]: I think it's like markdown. So you'd probably petition PCRE first, in my opinion, then the rest of 'em.
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04:19:08 <oerjan> <izabera> and she can't even tell them to fuck off <-- why, did she die of old age?
04:20:26 * oerjan googles and doesn't think she looks old
04:20:42 <oerjan> although maybe the pictures are
04:21:52 <izabera> she was 39 in matrix 2 https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/f2/4c/b8/f24cb8618f149b878bfc526da8f23883.jpg
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04:22:27 * oerjan obligatory joke that matrix has no sequel
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04:25:22 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Yay! New people! <-- but is e confusing limes and lemons
04:26:44 * oerjan suddenly wonders what's the term for lemonade, except with limes
04:27:07 <oerjan> izabera: the difference is that the nick used lemons while our wiki uses limes
04:32:17 <oerjan> <tswett> Heverywellone. <-- where did you get the w THAT MAKES NO SENSE
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04:50:26 <oerjan> <\oren\> e.g. if the operator was \@ then /foo\@bar/ would match foobar or barfoo <-- the trouble with that notation as an operator is that it doesn't work with more than two
04:51:33 <oerjan> e.g. foo\@bar\@baz will miss either permutations with foo in the middle or permutations with baz in the middle, dependent on how it parses
04:52:43 <oerjan> it needs to be genuinely multi-argument
04:58:53 <\oren\> why would it have to be parsed as (foo\@bar)\@baz
04:59:23 <\oren\> it can be like the 0<x<1 notation in math
04:59:37 <oerjan> yes. but then it wouldn't be an operator.
05:00:00 <\oren\> bah, operator or not, I need it
05:00:34 <oerjan> and then there's that pesky space in your other example
05:00:55 <\oren\> yeah that doesn'tapply to the pseudo-regexes I use at work
05:01:39 <\oren\> spaces are sort of handled in the correctway automatically
05:02:02 <izabera> funny how you forgot a space while saying it
05:02:33 <\oren\> on the other hand this means that you can't do /plural(s)?/
05:02:55 <\oren\> you have to do /plural|plurals/
06:12:33 <izabera> https://github.com/orlp/pdqsort
06:15:31 <oerjan> randall munroe tells it like it is
06:17:48 <oerjan> girl genius has been eerily regular lately
06:21:10 <oerjan> i get this strange impression seffie isn't _entirely_ stable.
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07:38:55 <shachaf> today someone recommended reading a Gregor paper
07:39:45 <oerjan> someone not from here?
07:40:04 <oerjan> was it The Eval Men Do
07:40:13 <oerjan> or whatever pun was the actual title
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07:40:38 <shachaf> also there were a bunch of other authors
07:40:45 <shachaf> http://the.gregor.institute/papers/onward2013-wuerthinger-truffle.pdf
07:40:52 <shachaf> that's a pretty good domain name
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07:41:06 <oerjan> is this why gregor isn't here, he's getting too famous
07:42:26 <oerjan> the oven top heat sensor beeps every 12 h 20 min
07:42:38 <oerjan> i should probably see if i can get the batteries changed
07:43:08 <oerjan> (it beeps more if i don't stop it)
07:43:44 <oerjan> shachaf: well the title does not disappoint
07:49:05 <oerjan> apparently i was only missing a "that" in the title
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07:58:25 <izabera> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3qt7ky/thought_id_share_my_unfortunate_interaction_while/ hitler is back
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09:00:33 <b_jonas> Hah! http://www.questionablecontent.net/view.php?comic=3080 reveals Claire was lying in the previous strip. I knew it!
09:01:21 <b_jonas> I can buy the quantum tunnel, but I'm quite sure the Library of Congress doesn't have a complete backup of GeoCities from 2001. That would be immensely valuable. Some people have scraped part of it before GeoCities shut down, but much of it is lost forever, sadly.
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09:05:58 <oerjan> stupid sites stealing my arrow keys
09:06:01 <b_jonas> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_GeoCities#Archiving_GeoCities_Web_sites
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10:35:01 <mroman> http://xkcd.com/1597/ <- truest description of git ever
10:35:14 <mroman> if I run into problems, I just clone it from new and copy my changes back to it ;D
10:35:19 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 3m 7s ago: your twiceunderscored wisdomnick isn't very useful. please correct twh
10:36:43 <myname> twh is that would help. hth
10:36:53 <boily> it's a bad git description. when I screw a repository, I know how to fix it.
10:36:58 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
10:37:01 <mroman> urban dictionary suggested "texting while horny"
10:38:08 <mroman> New study: How many people sext on IRC.
10:38:19 <oerjan> boily: so does that mean you're the guy in the xkcd hovertext
10:39:08 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
10:39:29 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/fuigepwifpqø': No such file or directory \ Forget what?
10:40:34 <boily> git isn't beautiful, it's a beautiful hack. branches are branches. “git reset --hard HEAD && git clean -fd” when everything exploses.
10:41:05 <boily> hellœrjan. you have a dedicated key for ø?
10:41:19 <oerjan> it's to the right of l
10:41:52 <mroman> äêëüfgçrl/=\-ßnthdîûéôàâöèùïbmwvz
10:41:58 <mroman> I don't have one as it seems :(
10:43:15 <HackEgo> [U+012F LATIN SMALL LETTER I WITH OGONEK] [U+0151 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE]
10:43:35 <fizzie> ø comes out of altgr-ö here.
10:44:08 <boily> ö is Shift-DeadDiæresis o.
10:44:26 <mroman> but I can't find ø on my keyboard
10:44:42 <HackEgo> [U+0151 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOUBLE ACUTE] [U+01EB LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH OGONEK] [U+00F4 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CIRCUMFLEX] [U+00F6 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DIAERESIS] [U+01D2 LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH CARON] [U+022F LATIN SMALL LETTER O WITH DOT ABOVE]
10:44:55 <oerjan> sadly, altgr-ø gives me nothing but i do have a dead ¨ key
10:45:36 <oerjan> despite the key having Ö and Æ printed on it as well.
10:45:44 <fizzie> Huh. I'm using the 'nodeadkeys' fi variant, but altgr-å is still a dead ˝.
10:48:49 <oerjan> i don't think i have œ
10:48:55 <boily> Canadian Multilingual Standard.
10:49:39 <mroman> "Dvorak alternative international with no dead keys"
10:50:30 <mroman> pressing altgr+shift / followed by should produce ø :(
10:50:50 <mroman> like altgr+shift " followed by a produces ä
10:52:08 <mroman> but otherwise I'm quite happy with the Dvorak-Layout
10:52:20 <mroman> the international versions at least
10:52:32 <mroman> the US version obviously sucks if you're european.
10:54:04 <HackEgo> [U+1E8D LATIN SMALL LETTER X WITH DIAERESIS]
10:55:19 <mroman> I'm gonna design me a conlang with ẍ,ǫ and those :D
10:58:02 <boily> âĉêĝĥîĵôŝûŵŷẑ àèìǹòùǜẁỳ åůẘẙ ãẽĩñõũṽỹ āēḡīōūǖȳ ăĕğĭŏŭ áçéǵíḱĺḿńóṕŕśúǘẃýź őű ǎčďěǧȟǐǰǩľňǒřšťǔǚž ȧḃċḋėḟġḣıȷŀṁṅȯṗṙṡṫẇẋẏż
11:02:27 <boily> mroman: could you please use ẅŵẁẘẃẇ and ṽ?
11:02:28 <b_jonas> boily: you're missing at least æøœł
11:02:42 <b_jonas> boily: what, the velsh stuff?
11:03:03 <b_jonas> wait, what the heck is a w with a ring? does that even exist?
11:03:12 <boily> yes, but æøœł don't involve dead keys.
11:03:22 <boily> it's typeable, thus it exists.
11:05:30 <boily> about ẘ: “ISO 233 uses this letter to transliterate وْ, the Arabic letter waw with a sukun.”
11:06:18 <b_jonas> boily: did you list all the Esperanto consonants there?
11:07:22 <b_jonas> also, wait, boily: where's țș ?
11:08:18 <boily> b_jonas: all the circumflexed letters seem to be there, along with ŭ.
11:08:35 <boily> I can't type them on an unadulterated CMS layout :/
11:08:46 <b_jonas> yep, all Esperanto is there
11:09:52 <b_jonas> boily: that's sad. can you type ðþ ? or the Serbian latin script letters?
11:10:23 <boily> ð and þ are there.
11:10:30 <b_jonas> or the Maltese H with bar?
11:11:46 <b_jonas> ok, so how about ðđÐĐ all four correctly?
11:12:11 <boily> I only have eth. I'm missing Serbian/Vietnamese D with bar.
11:12:32 <b_jonas> ok, how about the serbian c with acute accent?
11:13:11 <boily> weird, I'm stuck with ç.
11:14:16 <b_jonas> well, this is still quite a lot. I'm planning to add some extra letters to my keyboard layout, though I haven't quite decided on where exactly to put each letter, but I won't put this many
11:17:20 <b_jonas> I think I'm going to put àèìòù to aeiou, âêîôû to áéíóú, and ëï to nm (mnemonic is Noël and maïs),
11:17:29 <oerjan> boily: that's almost pronouncable
11:18:55 <b_jonas> but then I need a place for äßøæœç and maybe a few others
11:19:34 <boily> in Ithkuil it probably means: “Well, you may want to be having had eated breakfast with an extra fried egg, but the return to the uncommon plains will be a little bit harsher by a rusty bike.”
11:20:13 <b_jonas> boily: no way. Ithkuil doesn't have a letter ŧ
11:20:22 <b_jonas> you're thinking of that other, more crazy conlang
11:20:38 <b_jonas> the one that has like a hundred consonants as well as twelve tones
11:20:41 <boily> (stupid verbs. so many years, and I still can't past tense correctly. my nemesis is "catched" instead of "caught".)
11:21:01 <boily> there's a crazier one than Ithkuil???
11:21:02 <b_jonas> yeah, I hate some of these irregular verbs too
11:21:11 <b_jonas> boily: sure, why, what did you think?
11:21:18 <int-e> wow, GG updated... maybe they even have a buffer now?
11:21:42 <b_jonas> boily: it might depend on how complete a language you want, of course.
11:21:50 <boily> b_jonas: Ithkuil is some kind of Planck upper limit on conlang complexity.
11:25:05 <b_jonas> I mean, you sitting here on #esolang and mistify Itgkuil?
11:25:50 <b_jonas> Ithkuil is like perl. it has a reputation of line noise among some, but it isn't really that much different from an ordinary conlang.
11:26:19 <boily> \oren\: please add Ithkuil glyphs to your font.
11:26:31 <boily> b_jonas: an extremely compact conlang.
11:27:55 * boily defiantly glares at b_jonas ”mhngnyeuh!ʼn
11:29:56 <b_jonas> as for compact, there's the stereotypical conlang people try to make where every word is a single syllable, and it can have enough declinations and conjugations that you don't need to use extra grammar words most of the time. but it ends up as a language that has five extra vowels that the language rules claims are really consonants so that they don't increase the syllable count.
11:30:04 <b_jonas> but it ends up as a language that has five extra vowels that the language rules claims are really consonants so that they don't increase the syllable count.
11:30:57 <b_jonas> so basically, just y/aeiou/qhxwy/ any word and then it's one syllable
11:31:04 <Jafet> How about a conlang where you are grammatically required to repeat yourself all the time, like in Java
11:32:07 <boily> I shall go drown my sorrows by hugging a bottle of grapefruit-scented shampoo.
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11:33:13 <b_jonas> public class HelloWorld { public static void main(String[] args) { Java isn't really like that, surely. I mean, come on.
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11:38:44 <b_jonas> how many times have you had to write
11:38:50 <b_jonas> template<typename derived_type> template<typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::xec_type (typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::xec_type::*binop)(typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::xec_type other) const> typename vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::uint_t vecket_xec_detail::xecinteger_crtp<derived_type>::reducefull_u() const;
11:39:08 <b_jonas> in Java just because the MS compiler is stupid and doesn't understand the declaration you want to write despite that it's completely valid C++?
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11:40:48 <b_jonas> hmm, I think the third typename there is not needed
11:42:09 <b_jonas> in standard C++, that declaration would have to be only three lines long, not four lines.
11:42:24 <b_jonas> the MS compiler is a bitch.
11:48:44 <b_jonas> does java really have clumsy repetitive syntax like the one MS C requries for that declaration?
11:49:14 <mroman> Java is not very repetitive imo
11:49:25 <mroman> but that's just because you can't overload operators
11:49:45 <mroman> and because it has no syntax sugar for tuples or lists
11:50:04 <mroman> but Java 8 at least introduced lambdas
11:51:20 <mroman> http://codepad.org/unSpEcsf
11:51:26 <mroman> ^- maybe you'd like to code in this language?
11:53:18 <b_jonas> does it really have to repeat the xmlns url so many times?
11:53:24 <b_jonas> can't it do that just once at the top?
11:53:36 <b_jonas> well it's a stupid xml writer then
11:53:49 <b_jonas> I think you can declare all namespaces once near the top
11:55:25 <mroman> I'm using XML to represent the stuff I want to feed to my codegen
11:55:35 <mroman> i.e. I'm using XML as an intermediate language ;)
11:56:22 <Jafet> That's the wrong way round, XML is meant to be your human-interaction language
11:57:19 <mroman> or technically it's the "bytecode"
11:57:25 <mroman> there's also an interpreter which interprets the XML
11:57:28 <Jafet> For your intermediate language, make up something new that communicates exactly the set of data that you currently need and nothing more
12:07:30 <Jafet> b_jonas: Java still has the Foo x = new Foo(...); a.put(x); Foo y = (Foo)a.get();
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13:29:24 <Taneb> I'm presenting a talk on esolangs tomorrow
13:29:48 <Taneb> Which, of course, means I need to prepare a talk on esolangs
13:29:53 <Taneb> In the next 25 hours
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13:35:31 <mroman> Just mention Burlesque and you'll be fine ;)
13:35:48 <mroman> Jafet: That's what I meant with "little syntactic sugar support"
13:36:01 <mroman> in every other language you could overload []
13:37:12 <mroman> (For the next release like 30 new bulit-ins are planned)
13:37:59 <mroman> @define filterOut f xs = filter (not . f) xs
13:38:09 <mroman> > filterOut (even) [1..10]
13:38:12 <fizzie> In every other language, like not C.
13:38:29 <mroman> C is a terrible language.
13:38:34 <fizzie> Also I don't think you see all that much (Foo)a.get() with generics.
13:38:47 <mroman> No, but still bar.get(index)
13:39:19 <mroman> However, due to compatibility issues some functions still take Object
13:39:20 <fizzie> Can't say I mind that.
13:39:50 <fizzie> Although I did see the most Java-est method name the other day, I forget what it was.
13:39:51 <mroman> which requires a downcast, which produces runtime exceptions
13:40:05 <mroman> or an instanceof check and return false if you compare a TcpSocket to a String
13:40:41 <mroman> setCustomerNameAndUpdateDatabaseNow(String name) ?
13:40:43 <fizzie> Oh, right, it was the Selenium thing.
13:40:57 <fizzie> mroman: ExpectedConditions.frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt.
13:41:39 <fizzie> It sounds weird, because you're meant to use it in a call to 'until' on a variable conventionally named 'wait', so that it reads wait.until(frameToBeAvailableAndSwitchToIt(x)) when you've import static'd the method.
13:41:58 <mroman> Why I like Java: Cross-platform, Garbage collected
13:42:17 <mroman> and sadly Java is pretty much the only language that fullfils this role :(
13:43:16 <fizzie> There's also wait.until(presenceOfElementLocated(By.foo(bar))); but then somehow it goes wait.until(presenceOfAllElementsLocatedBy(By.foo(bar)); for another method in the same class.
13:43:47 <fizzie> I guess whoever wrote the first one uses the By.foo static methods with an 'import By', while whoever wrote the second one static imports them.
13:47:27 <Jafet> If it was named with a specific sentence in mind, why ToBeAvailable? Why not BecomesAvailable, or ArtWhenceforthAvailable
13:51:10 <b_jonas> Question. What are the words where the French spelling actually looks _saner_ than the English spelling? One of them is automn, but there was a few other.
13:53:00 <mroman> Probably every french word has a saner spelling than english
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15:05:18 <mroman> #Q(?+)(?*)r~5.-#q5 5?+
15:05:25 <mroman> that's the nastiest Burlesque-Code I've written so far
15:05:36 <izabera> i thought it was a drunk regex
15:05:48 <mroman> This replaces every occurence of ?+ after the #q with ?*
15:07:23 <mroman> probably not nested occurences though
15:08:02 <b_jonas> um, what does the 5.- thing do?
15:08:34 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how that even tokeizes
15:08:40 <mroman> #Q pushes the remaining code to the stack
15:08:57 <mroman> so #Q pushes {(?+)(?*)r~5.-#q5 5?+} to the stack
15:09:33 <mroman> then (?+)(?*)r~ runs which replaces ?+ with ?* resulting in {(?*)(?*)r~5.-#q5 5?*}
15:09:41 <mroman> then 5.- removes the first 5 tokens
15:10:10 <mroman> thus removing the code for the replacement from the list
15:10:23 <mroman> then #q pops the code from the stack
15:10:32 <mroman> which will result in 5 5?* being run
15:10:48 <mroman> so 5.- produces {#q5 5?*}
15:11:04 <mroman> (actually 6.- works as well)
15:11:08 <b_jonas> but how is { 5.- } tokenized?
15:11:08 <mroman> #q is a nop if no list is on the stack
15:11:23 <b_jonas> why is { 5. } not a single token?
15:11:27 <mroman> 7.- would result in 5?* wich throws an error
15:11:53 <mroman> {5.-} is a block with two elements
15:11:56 <mroman> an integer and an identifier
15:12:14 <b_jonas> but why is that not tokenized as a floating point literal 5. followed by - which is half a token
15:12:18 <b_jonas> so -# would be the next token
15:12:42 <mroman> because floating points require at least one trailing digit
15:13:06 <b_jonas> so the rule differs from C
15:13:08 <mroman> if you write 5.- it tries to parse it as float
15:13:13 <mroman> but that fails because - is not a digit
15:13:21 <mroman> so it fallsback to try to parse it as an integer
15:13:58 <mroman> if you need to write 5.0 you can write @5 because you can't write 5. ;)
15:14:25 <mroman> also @'a is an infinite string of a's :)
15:14:37 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id faq do bf ask arr @ ? .
15:15:06 <mroman> Used for ranges like @afr\ which gives you "abcdef"
15:15:41 <b_jonas> how do you write negative floating point literals?
15:16:14 <b_jonas> are c99 style hex float literals with "p" for base 2 exponent accepted?
15:16:29 <mroman> (@-5 is short for -5.0)
15:16:45 <mroman> Also technically builtins can contain digits or { and }
15:17:00 <b_jonas> sure, some builtins contain those already
15:17:28 <mroman> yeah and there's some parser hackery as well
15:17:51 <mroman> m{ IS a built-in if the parser fails
15:18:04 <mroman> ERROR: Unknown command: (m{)
15:18:11 <mroman> ERROR: Burlesque: (m[) Invalid arguments!
15:18:24 <mroman> m{....} is short for {....}m[
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15:19:08 <mroman> I should fix that probably someday
15:20:10 <b_jonas> but someone was planning to put one online
15:20:14 <mroman> http://104.167.104.168/~burlesque/burlesque.cgi
15:20:20 <mroman> you can use the online cgi shell
15:20:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blsq: not found
15:20:54 <b_jonas> you can put it to #esoteric-blah if it'd be too much noise here
15:21:04 <b_jonas> and it says 2e5 isn't valid
15:21:04 <mroman> I could host the blsqbot on int-e's vserver
15:21:17 <mroman> e5 isn't a known built-in
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15:23:10 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e5)!
15:23:20 <b_jonas> ok, so how do you write 2e5 then?
15:24:13 <mroman> Do you want me to add e-support?
15:24:58 <b_jonas> and 0x3.0 and 0x3p5 and 0x3.8p5 and 0x3.8p-5 support too probably
15:25:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (ff) Invalid arguments!
15:25:13 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (xf)!
15:25:26 <b_jonas> hexadecimal integer support
15:25:40 <b_jonas> would be useful for numeric data
15:25:47 <b_jonas> but I don't use blsq so do whatever you want
15:28:30 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e5)!
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15:29:34 <HackEgo> blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'.
15:30:06 <mroman> int-e: it's running on my laptop currently ;)
15:30:19 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000015259539682183774006589929941893120
15:30:33 <mroman> I shouldn't read that to double
15:31:53 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:32:02 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000.0
15:32:38 <b_jonas> how do you print in %g or %.16e or %a format?
15:32:48 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e-)!
15:33:12 <mroman> that wouldn't make sense for integers anyway or would it...
15:33:39 <mroman> b_jonas: you mean like "with 8 trailing zeroes?"
15:33:48 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (rm) Invalid arguments!
15:33:48 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:33:50 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (RM)!
15:33:50 <blsqbot> | 200000000000000000000000000000000000000
15:33:56 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque: (rm) Invalid arguments!
15:35:57 <mroman> how did maps work again?
15:36:54 <mroman> !blsq %:0 1 2 2 3Vq?imk
15:36:54 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Burlesque (mk): Invalid arguments!
15:37:21 <mroman> !blsq %:0 1 2 2 3Vq?ijmk
15:38:06 <mroman> I thought map keys would map over the keys
15:38:09 <mroman> but it returns the keys of the map
15:38:35 <mroman> luckily maps are still undocumented :D
15:39:48 <mroman> I think vars are still undocumented too
15:39:55 <blsqbot> | Ain't nobody got output fo' that!
15:40:22 <mroman> nobody needs them for golfing anyway
15:40:28 <mroman> I just need them for more serious productive things
15:40:53 <mroman> also in most cases hiding is still shorter
15:41:07 <mroman> or using the secondary stack
15:41:44 <blsqbot> | ERROR: Unknown command: (e-)!
15:41:54 <mroman> the good thing is, 2e- can still be parsed as 2 e- :D
15:41:58 <mroman> so I can make a command e-
15:42:49 <mroman> also I should probably use maps for builtin lookups
15:42:52 <mroman> and not a linear search :D
15:43:02 <mroman> looking up the built-in rM is like O(388)
15:43:56 <Taneb> Oh wow, http://www.intercaloninterstates.org/ exists
15:45:20 <blsqbot> | 0.00000000007943282347242822
15:48:09 <mroman> blqsbot please do quit
15:48:42 <mroman> blsqbot please do quit
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15:50:30 <mroman> Taneb: Yeah, I saw that a while ago.
15:51:25 <Taneb> I remember reading somewhere that an Intercal compiler managed to break man, does anyone have a source for this?
15:52:13 <Taneb> man as in the program to bring up a man page
15:56:13 <mroman> is man written in Intercal?
15:57:05 <mroman> I should write a man page for burlesque :D
15:57:15 <Taneb> It was because the compiler's name was something like "ew, ick"
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16:30:36 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/BLSQ.html
16:30:52 <mroman> I could re-write the documentation in Markdown and export it ilke that.
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16:44:13 <Taneb> What's the minimal loop nesting required to make brainfuck at least in Fancy L?
16:54:24 <int-e> At a glance, 1 is insufficient, and 3 is easily enough. But the case of 2 levels looks challenging.
16:57:49 <b_jonas> I think we were talking about this once, in the context of how many you need to make it turing-complete
16:58:02 <b_jonas> I think there was a proof or almost-proof that one bracket is not enough, but I'm not sure
16:58:35 <b_jonas> There's certainly a fixed number of levels that are enough, because you can build an interpreter, but I don't know how many levels that is
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17:15:06 <Jafet> It may depend on whether it is possible to branch using one level.
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17:19:31 <Jafet> LeJIT paper titles. http://www.internetsociety.org/doc/too-lejit-quit-extending-jit-spraying-arm
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18:03:45 <mroman> b_jonas: Do you have a github account?
18:04:12 <b_jonas> mroman: I think I have one lying somewhere, but I don't use it
18:04:27 <b_jonas> I needed one to file bug tickets for something
18:04:28 <mroman> Somebody should fork Burlesque so it doesn't get lost in case I decide to delete it again someday.
18:04:50 <b_jonas> do I need a github account for that?
18:04:56 <mroman> I think forks survive if the original repo is forked.
18:05:00 <mroman> b_jonas: I think, yes.
18:05:03 <b_jonas> wouldn't they just download a local copy of the repo?
18:05:22 <b_jonas> I could do that later today if you want, unless it's too big
18:05:59 <mroman> I was thinking of asking graue to put a snapshot of it into the esofiles
18:06:10 <b_jonas> well, whoever runs anagolf probably has a copy
18:06:33 <b_jonas> but possibly only a snapshot, not the whole version history
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18:06:40 <mroman> well the version history is gone ;)
18:06:52 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque
18:06:57 <mroman> so are the version tags etc.
18:07:42 <mroman> the commit history has survived
18:07:55 <mroman> or do I need to push tags explictly?
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18:08:54 <mroman> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Burlesque/releases
18:09:04 <mroman> 1.7.3 is the one used on anagol
18:09:26 <mroman> I'll fork the esofiles
18:09:31 <mroman> add the 1.7.3 zip to it
18:09:37 <mroman> and send graue a pull request
18:09:46 <mroman> then at least 1.7.3 is correctly archived.
18:11:49 <mroman> hm. v1.0 had 91 built-ins
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18:14:20 <fizzie> A bit late, but a "default" git clone does indeed set things up so that tags aren't pushed by default.
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21:50:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44989&oldid=44919 * Rdebath * (+44) Here's a code block inside a ::: -- Oh and reduce the indent on the first message too.
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22:39:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Grin]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44990&oldid=23530 * Zdimension * (+33) /* Commands */ Fixed the whole thing (all the specified examples didn't work with the previous spec, now it works)
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22:45:27 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should branch out and allow the wiki to include esoconlangs...
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23:53:11 <quintopia> i have a new esolang article in the works... maybe i will finish it tomorrow?
23:53:52 <quintopia> but its more of an actually potentially useful lang that happdlens to be esoteric only because no one knows it
23:54:07 <izabera> why tomorrow when you can do it in a week
00:02:00 <\oren\> ff <-- why, did she die of old age?
00:02:02 <\oren\> ff <-- why, did she die of old age?
00:02:04 <\oren\> ff <-- why, did she die of old age?
00:02:37 <\oren\> rrgh I hate the middle click paste
00:04:21 <\oren\> yay, I found a setting to disable it
00:07:02 <\oren\> er, I guess the right click also pasted, which was how I accidentally activated it
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00:20:49 <oerjan> izabera: which reminds me, i read a review of the bond movie in the local newspaper and it didn't mention her age at all hth
00:28:35 <quintopia> izabera: i will have way more to do in a week
00:41:23 <izabera> why it in a week when you can do it in a month
00:41:39 <izabera> i added an extra it and ruined it
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01:11:19 <Sgeo> pikhq, are you a Gravity Falls fan?
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01:25:53 <Sgeo> hmm that last part didn't work
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01:30:55 <boily> it's missing a trunk, and snowflakes.
01:32:15 <boily> what's the Japanese onomatopœia for dislocating your mouth while yawning?
01:41:23 <boily> I should knit myself a plush mapole for moments like that.
01:45:59 <boily> hellørjan. I don't know; I should ask some maple farm guy. please wait for next maple season, and I'll answer you then hth
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01:48:08 <boily> and that's how oerjan went for hibernation. sleep well!
01:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make a 2D, minecraft-esque, adventure map-oriented RPG engine
01:51:17 <hppavilion[1]> In PyOpenGL. And use Py2exe to distribute it. Because I can't be bothered to use a good programming language!
01:52:19 <hppavilion[1]> Maaaaybe I should use a language that runs on the JVM for efficiency
01:53:42 <boily> Python is quite good.
01:55:49 <Phantom_Hoover> i haven't played hyperrogue either but i've read about it
01:56:25 <Phantom_Hoover> i love how it has an entire giant quest consisting solely of finding the centre of a radius 14 circle
02:00:33 <boily> bhaaaah... not that slow...
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02:00:48 <boily> just hook in some C++ with SWIG and you're set!
02:10:58 <\oren\> idea: a roguelike that obviates the need to use a square font by using chinese characters for objects, enemies etc.
02:12:29 <boily> in a room with high 壁, you battle 龍 by throwing 石 at them?
02:13:51 <boily> then the pack of rabid 龍 breathe 獄火 at you (人).
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02:14:21 <boily> (speaking of rabid dragons, I can't recall having ever seen anything "rabid" in any roguelikes.)
02:14:40 <boily> but now it's time to teethbrush then bedsleep.
02:14:58 <boily> \oren\: do you have 獄 in your font?
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02:23:17 <shachaf> i was just thinking the other day about how you haven't been around in a while
02:23:45 <copumpkin> I cleared out my computer and was procrastinating restoring my IRC client config
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03:24:51 <zzo38> Now I made up a few more Magic: the Gathering cards, and I also added another file for "Un" cards
03:27:29 <shachaf> You always say that without links.
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03:32:35 <zzo38> Do you know when is glogbot fixed?
03:48:18 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/mal/blob/master/process/guide.md#step1
03:48:27 <izabera> they're using this regex [\s,]*(~@|[\[\]{}()'`~^@]|"(?:\\.|[^\\"])*"|;.*|[^\s\[\]{}('"`,;)]*)
03:48:58 <izabera> why "(?:\\.|[^\\"])*" instead of "(\\.|[^\\"])*" ?
03:49:41 <izabera> do they actually use the ?: part?
03:50:04 <izabera> i mean would it hurt if i don't use it?
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03:51:22 <izabera> that's the only part that requires PCRE
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03:55:34 <izabera> i guess i don't need it \o/
03:55:45 <izabera> thanks guys for the support
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04:16:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44991&oldid=43379 * Paul2520 * (+18) testing __NOEDITSECTION__
04:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44992&oldid=44991 * Paul2520 * (-18) removing __NOEDITSECTION__
04:19:41 <hppavilion[1]> How does when implement a dynamically typed language in a statically typed language I wonder?
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04:22:43 <paul2520> hppavilion[1]: ah, forgot about that
04:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> I want to create an "all valid ASCII is acceptable" (barring control characters, perhaps) language that isn't character-by-character (or more generally, chunk-by-chunk)
04:32:35 <codergeek42> hppavilion[1], but that seems oddly contradictory -- if your constraint is character based (that they are each ASCII, or in some reasonable subset thereof); how will the language itself not be character-based?
04:33:19 <hppavilion[1]> codergeek42: I mean not like brainfuck, where ever character is an instruction; I want a language with some structure to it
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04:37:43 <hppavilion[1]> codergeek42: I was inspired by a language called "Garbage" which takes any ASCII text and produces ASCII output. Never saw what came of it though
04:37:59 <hppavilion[1]> The person looked like a potential esolanger, but I haven't seen them on the wiki
04:38:25 <hppavilion[1]> So I don't think they knew they weren't alone in the world in being a surrealist programmers
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04:47:13 <codergeek42> Hmm, yeah I had a classmate who mentioned Garbage last semester. Interesting concept but not much fleshed-out at the time.
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04:52:11 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see more ternary operators than just x?y:z
04:54:06 <zzo38> What kind of other ternary operator? Possibly, median operator of three numbers
04:57:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Median would be better as a panary (omnary? infinary? indefinary?) operator, taking an undefined number of arguments, and at that point you're just dealing with functions
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05:02:52 <codergeek42> hppavilion[1],well isn't that what operators are? In every langauge I'm comfortable with, operators are nothing more than "special" functions
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05:03:20 <codergeek42> And in fact, you can call them as functions instead of using their operator syntax
05:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> codergeek42: I take it you use python? Or is it some other language you're talking about?
05:04:06 <codergeek42> For example, if(myString.__contains__('A')) instead of (if 'A' in myString) in Python
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05:13:57 <Sgeo_> https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/d363c7fbef92a285d8ef
05:14:12 <zzo38> Yes, although, median can also be particularly useful in the case of three arguments, such as if you want it to not go beyond a range 0 to 255 but rather to stop at the limits
05:16:33 <zzo38> I think the tunes log URL should have ?C=M;O=D at the end so that you can have the new one at first like the one of codu does too.
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05:51:55 <newsham> check out fig5 on page 15 here: http://www.labri.fr/perso/fleury/courses/software-security/material/exploitation/return-oriented-programming/jop/TR-2010-8.pdf
05:52:33 <newsham> execution starts when lines 66-71 are used as args to a longjmp
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07:41:22 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/BeLActl this is bjarne stroustrup
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08:05:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44993&oldid=44794 * Zzo38 * (+978)
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08:29:15 <zzo38> Have you try to think of what some cards are meaning with R&D's Secret Lair in play? Some people argue about it.
08:43:04 <shachaf> If rules were changed after a card was printed, does it let you pay with pre-change rules?
08:47:36 <zzo38> But I think it would allow the Alpha version of Lightning Bolt to target any object, player, or zone, even if not in play (although it does nothing to most objects as they cannot be damaged); rule 400.11 says something doing to a zone does to all cards in that zone, so maybe this means you can damage all nontoken creatures and planeswalkers with one spell, even if they have shroud/hexproof
08:52:19 <zzo38> Some people said that Floral Spuzzem tries to make a decision and therefore it is a player; but I think that is wrong. If a card tries to do something that only a player can do, that does not make it a player; even if it did, you would control that player and therefore make choices for it.
09:00:17 <zzo38> Someone said basic lands no longer do anything. No! They have an implicit mana ability due to their subtype. The ones from Odyssey do nothing. An Island from Ice Age taps for mana normally, but is not an Island; it is just named "Island".
09:00:31 <zzo38> (It is also not a basic land.)
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09:09:05 <zzo38> They say "An Exodus version of Sonic Burst is another turn-two win." No! I do not believe so! It has an activated ability which cannot be activated (because it is an instant and cannot come into play), so it does nothing.
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11:05:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bexandre * New user account
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11:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44994 * Bexandre * (+307) Created page with "<pre>display Hello everyone! continue cls display My name is Bexandre, and I am a programmer display since I'm 11 years old. I'm programming a display whole new esoteric progr..."
11:15:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44995&oldid=44994 * Bexandre * (+531)
11:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44996&oldid=44711 * SuperJedi224 * (+23) /* Instructions */
11:26:24 <Jafet> What the fungot is a programmer display?
11:26:24 <fungot> Jafet: before this routine will designate the logical not is determined primarily by its " waveform.
11:27:18 <int-e> aaaah, "display" is a command there.
11:29:05 <fungot> olsner: the operand is separated by commas. loops can be retrieved one at a time ( instead of either the transmit buffer or the basic routines without knowing their addrses in the
11:29:39 <int-e> retrieving loops sounds interesting as well.
11:29:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64* ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:30:03 <fungot> Selected style: c64 (C64 programming material)
11:30:25 <int-e> fungot: enlighten us
11:30:25 <fungot> int-e: read q1 reads 63 numbers, using sprite 1 and 3.
11:31:08 <olsner> fungot: how do you read numbers with sprites?
11:33:05 <int-e> fungot: let me meditate on that
11:33:05 <fungot> int-e: untlk 60911, 65451 ( decimal).
11:33:54 <olsner> fungot: are you just playing numberwang?
11:33:54 <fungot> olsner: 1) set the a register is set to 1, so a(0) can be used to control multiple voices. computer ready? type new, run, the routine
11:35:45 <int-e> . o O ( Horn numberwang: "I don't know whether 42 is numberwang, but I've been told that if 57 and 3517 are numberwang, then 42 is numberwang as well." )
11:36:18 <olsner> I don't think that's the kind of logic that numberwang respects
11:36:38 <int-e> That's fine because it's not numberwang; it's Horn numberwang.
11:39:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44997 * Bexandre * (+1897) Created page with "== Syntax == Firstly, there is no higher cases. It will beget a giant black hole in the sky... Except for text and for numbers (var names from 0 to 99 only).<br /> <span style..."
11:39:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44998&oldid=44997 * Bexandre * (+6)
11:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44999&oldid=44998 * Bexandre * (-6)
11:40:45 <fizzie> fungot: Give me some more numbers, please.
11:40:45 <fungot> fizzie: each dot will be displayed, the other three will be written to the beginning of vic-ii memory ( page number=location/ 256) and
11:41:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45000&oldid=44995 * Bexandre * (+26)
11:41:15 <fizzie> fungot: That's good, I wouldn't want any dots to be left out.
11:41:15 <fungot> fizzie: what makes the mouse dances. ( see video bank selection section). this can be set to zero, then when the address inputs select the paddles on controller port, it gets hopelessly confused, making the change from basic.
11:41:33 <fizzie> I'm hopelessly confused.
11:42:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45001&oldid=44999 * Bexandre * (-5)
11:43:46 <int-e> rodent circus: mail delivery
11:44:11 <int-e> fungot: tell us more about mice
11:44:11 <fungot> int-e: 130 for q= 1 to 7 allows you to examine tape data. the
11:45:16 <int-e> fungot: and now be incoherent?
11:45:16 <fungot> int-e: a=96 and 32: print a mid(b,8,8), the not operator, 13-16, 31, 38, 340, 356, 375 reverse on, poke 783,247.
11:46:00 <int-e> fungot: and eww, I wouldn't touch that memory with a ten foot pole.
11:46:00 <fungot> int-e: windows 95 ms-dos edit is the same line. the smallest floating-point number is known as pages. page 0 offset of the kernal
11:46:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45002&oldid=45001 * Bexandre * (+33)
11:47:33 <int-e> `le/rn page/The smallest floating-point number is known as pages. Fungot discovered it.
11:50:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45003&oldid=45002 * Bexandre * (+0)
11:53:03 <fizzie> fungot: How do I call the kernal?
11:53:03 <fungot> fizzie: lda 16 load high order indirect address contained in the
11:54:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45004&oldid=45000 * Bexandre * (+84)
11:54:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45005&oldid=45004 * Bexandre * (+6)
11:55:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45006&oldid=45005 * Bexandre * (+4)
11:58:07 <izabera> can you reprogram it to avoid sentences that end in the?
11:59:07 <int-e> I think fizzie would have to retrain the language model...
11:59:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=45007 * Bexandre * (+1560) Created page with "'''AIV'''<ref>[http://www.mediafire.com/download/dcixadngm9lgye8/aiv.exe]</ref> is an [[esoteric programming language]] that uses french quotes instead of brackets. == Basics ..."
12:00:06 <int-e> and that wouldn't prevent fungot from stopping in the middle of
12:00:06 <fungot> int-e: rem statements are used if the stop key on the right edge of the seed value is automatically executed when an rs-232 file discards all data in location 56333 ( dc0d). bits 3,2, and numbers 1-8 at the entry for the two types of operation over a short time, it is time to print the name portion equals 187 bytes.
12:00:15 <int-e> it would just be breaking on different words ;)
12:00:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45008&oldid=45007 * Bexandre * (-10)
12:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45009&oldid=45003 * Bexandre * (+1)
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12:04:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45010&oldid=45009 * Bexandre * (-6)
12:19:21 <fizzie> The broken sentences are probably due to lines that weren't unbroken.
12:20:11 <izabera> then you have to broke them to make them not unbroken :o
12:20:12 <fizzie> The stopping that fungot does is a bit ad-hoc.
12:20:12 <fungot> fizzie: 1) call this routine, you get the x and y position at which each possible dot ( pixel) of the control ctrl key and type rvs on ( set to 1
12:22:07 <fizzie> But it should never stop in a place that wasn't an end of line in the original training data.
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12:23:02 <fizzie> Just that some of the materials weren't so properly converted to paragraph/sentence-per-line format.
12:26:22 <fizzie> An obstacle for retraining this particular style is that I have no idea what the actual source text was. I haven't been very systematic when it comes to fungot styles.
12:26:22 <fungot> fizzie: bits 4-7 of pw hi are not ordinary variables that you've told basic not to use the jump table will give its examples in this case you must set both the required calculations and/ or ram.
12:27:20 <fizzie> On the plus side, the swipe-style keyboard on this phone has learned to spell fungot impressively well. All I need to do is to draw a little squiggle that looks a bit like it.
12:27:20 <fungot> fizzie: the four-part adsr ( attack, decay, and
12:28:00 <fizzie> (Alternative suggestions: dinghy, finfoot, cubit.)
12:28:41 <fizzie> fungot: And sustain and release?
12:28:42 <fungot> fizzie: for example, load"file",8,1) from the vic-ii control register to the numbers 0 255 can be used for screen graphics on a low-going edge. the
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12:39:41 <FreeFull> I've never used a swipe keyboard
12:39:46 <FreeFull> I should try it out at some point
12:40:52 <fizzie> For the record, I'm just using the stock Android one.
12:41:08 <fizzie> It works a whole lot better for English than Finnish.
12:41:53 <int-e> fizzie: IIRC you're at google, are you anywhere close to people who train these things?
12:43:10 <FreeFull> Good thing I don't write any finnish then
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12:43:43 <fizzie> Not really, though maybe not quite as far as I could be. I don't know who they are, though.
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12:45:48 <fizzie> (It makes an attempt at all the Finnish noun cases and verb tenses, but still misses many. Plus we have these meaningful double consonants and vowels, and there's no way to indicate a length of a character when swiping, I don't think it takes pauses into account at all.)
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12:59:51 <Taneb> I'm doing a talk on esolangs in an hour and a half
13:10:00 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: so far, INTERCAL, brainfuck, Befunge, Piet, Underload, and ///
13:12:00 <Taneb> Any more you'd suggest?
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13:27:18 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: but then I'd have to travel back in time and stop myself
13:27:27 <Taneb> (I did actually think about it)
13:33:01 <int-e> how about that finite state machine... malbolge...
13:33:57 <int-e> (probably not a good idea; I wouldn't know what to say beyond "this is how it works" and "and here's a guy who managed to produce an actual loop for 99 bottles of beer")
13:35:38 <Phantom__Hoover> Taneb, hmm you should do a sub- or super-tc language though
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13:43:29 <myname> Taneb: wh not funciton?
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14:12:48 <int-e> How about that reversible one, hmm, *googles* Kayak
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14:58:09 <Taneb> myname: largely because I don't know funciton
15:02:40 <Taneb> Might talk about Banana Scheme
15:02:48 <Taneb> (talk has been delayed)
15:03:25 <int-e> ((())()) <-- bananas?
15:05:11 <izabera> is that a new lisp dialect?
15:06:37 <int-e> ok, I read the esolangs page and I'm not sure why it's "Banana" scheme.
15:07:07 <int-e> (it's a name, but does it have a deeper meaning that I fail to see?)
15:33:28 <Taneb> People seem to be going to the other talk
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15:43:52 <oerjan> <zzo38> Do you know when is glogbot fixed? <-- first Gregor has to start paying attention...
15:44:13 <oerjan> which is tricky when he's not in a channel. i did send him a privmsg
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15:51:55 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> How does when implement a dynamically typed language in a statically typed language I wonder? <-- you define a catch-all data type with tags hth
15:57:31 -!- oerjan has set topic: The Corruptic Channello | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
15:57:43 <Jafet> Many dynamically typed languages are implemented in C.
15:57:56 <oerjan> zzo38: i know it used to have ?C=M;O=D before, so i changed it
15:58:02 <Jafet> Well, some of them are also implemented in the statically typed subset of C.
15:59:13 <oerjan> Jafet: and then you usually use struct + union for the tagging, no?
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16:00:35 <oerjan> does that count as statically typed btw, it's very weak since you can accidentally try to read the wrong union element
16:04:16 <Jafet> Sure, useless static typing is still static typing
16:05:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AIV]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45011&oldid=45008 * 79.80.231.235 * (+28)
16:24:33 * oerjan assumes disappointment
16:30:07 <Taneb> oerjan: a lot of people went to the other talk on at the same time, about running your own mobile operator or something
16:30:26 <Taneb> So there were about 20% of the people at this event went to my talk
16:31:06 <oerjan> the obvious thing to do is to start a funge-based mobile operator
16:38:04 <newsham> http://i.imgur.com/MUwEgfk.png
16:39:00 <newsham> ^^^ "JOP". control of "found code" using code that ends in jumps, and a dispatch table.
16:40:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45012&oldid=44987 * SuperJedi224 * (+198)
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16:41:37 <newsham> in that example, code execution starts when the buf at line65 is used by "longjmp"
16:42:29 <newsham> the "mangled" addrs are due to the way longjmp tries to protect some saved regs
16:43:10 <newsham> the comments showing what code is ref'd by each addr should be enough to follow the rest of the execution
16:43:55 <newsham> the basic gist is the table at lines 51-61 (labelled g00-g0a) form a list of of statements to execute
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16:44:19 <newsham> and the "dispatch" code is executed after each step to direct execution back to the table
16:44:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45013&oldid=45012 * SuperJedi224 * (+23) /* Instructions */
16:44:43 <tswett> int-e: I believe Banana Scheme is named after this: http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/O/one-banana-problem.html
16:44:45 <newsham> fun, non-traditional execution of x86 code
16:47:19 <tswett> Man, it'd be nice if my opponents in FNM would quit questioning the Standard-legality of my cards.
16:47:38 <tswett> If you think one of my cards is not legal in the format I'm playing, here's a rule of thumb for determining whether or not you're right:
16:50:42 <int-e> but... they only have your word for that...
16:54:09 <tswett> Let's see, what did I get wrong this time? Madness doesn't work the way its reminder text implies. Suspend only works for a card in your hand, even if another effect says you may cast it.
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17:09:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45014&oldid=45013 * SuperJedi224 * (-9) /* Instructions */
17:10:35 <int-e> newsham: it's cute but it takes a while to digest
17:12:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45015&oldid=45014 * SuperJedi224 * (+7) /* Instructions */
17:16:04 <int-e> in any case http://cs.binghamton.edu/~mkayaalp/jop.html is probably a more useful link than an image rendered from a paper.
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17:23:32 <b_jonas> tswett: I think the rule in that case is that they can call a judge, who shall verify that the card is legal.
17:23:57 <tswett> What I want isn't really reasonable. But I still want it.
17:24:28 <b_jonas> And the judge can also tell them the oracle text of the card, which is often useful if you play with old or non-English printings.
17:25:06 <b_jonas> Although that's usually less frequent in Standard.
17:25:54 <b_jonas> Do you often play with such cards? I have lots of old cards (though most of them aren't in Standard), but very few non-English ones.
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17:29:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45016&oldid=45015 * SuperJedi224 * (+65) /* Instructions */
17:34:43 <b_jonas> I particularly had problems with Hidden Spider. It's printed with the trigger saying "successfully casts a creature with flying", when I bought it the Oracle text used to look for "creature with flying comes into play", but it was later changed to "plays a creature spell with flying" then "casts a creature spell with flying";
17:35:17 <b_jonas> while Veiled Serpent, which is also printed with "successfully casts a spell", cared about "plays a spell" or "casts a spell" all the time.
17:35:46 <b_jonas> And these are both a cycle, there are like five Hidden and five Veiled creatures.
17:38:02 <b_jonas> And to complicate the matters, the Hidden creatures work two different ways.
17:38:31 <b_jonas> There's also some creatures where the creature types aren't obvious. In particular, it's not so easy to guess that Mine Carrier is a human.
17:39:08 <b_jonas> Or that Hollow Dogs is a zombie, while Skeletal Crocodile is a Skeleton.
17:39:18 <b_jonas> Seriously, what's with Hollow Dogs?
17:39:27 <tswett> My current deck has a couple of reprinted cards. I think they're Shivan Dragon and Terra Stomper from M15.
17:39:31 <b_jonas> I think Hollow Dogs is a mistake.
17:39:44 <b_jonas> tswett: M15 isn't really old, is it?
17:39:58 <tswett> Certainly not. It's not in Standard, though.
17:41:24 <b_jonas> Hmm, what cheap green mana producer creature is in Standard now? Arbor Elf and Llanowar Elves and BoP are all out now. Is it the two mana Arbor Elf?
17:42:05 <\oren\> uh, copper myr produces green man
17:42:09 <b_jonas> (I like Arbor Elf. I should buy more, because it goes better in my green decks than the Llanowar Elves, of which I have enough copies that I'd bought before Arbor Elf was printed.)
17:42:40 <b_jonas> Yes, the Myrs are nice, I have a playset of the cycle
17:43:20 <b_jonas> and no, the two mana Arbor Elf isn't in standard
17:44:11 <b_jonas> It's called Voyaging Satyr
17:44:46 <oerjan> isn't this a rather inaccurate statement https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haskell_(programming_language)&curid=27404990&diff=688378387&oldid=684901079#Haskell_1.0_to_1.4
17:45:09 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haskell_(programming_language)&curid=27404990&diff=688378387&oldid=684901079
17:45:33 <\oren\> confirmed: Copper Myr 2 | T: Add G to your mana pool. /The elves thought of the myr as minor threats, just as the myr thought of the elves.
17:46:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but it's not in Standard anymore, is it?
17:46:42 <\oren\> how do I find that out
17:46:53 <b_jonas> by the way, the funniest (but mostly useless) myr is Myr Servitor
17:49:05 <\oren\> hmm mine has a sword as the expansion symbol
17:49:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: the Sword of Kaldra, so it's printed in the Mirrodin block?
17:49:29 <b_jonas> \oren\: it's reprinted in Scars
17:50:29 <\oren\> Hmm while searching I cam across a crazy card
17:50:45 <oerjan> oops, are those trick and treaters, i'm not used to being in a place where they actually come by
17:51:14 <b_jonas> by the way, Myrs are nice because almost all of them have Myr in their name. very few creature types are disciplined in that way. Slivers are even better, plus a few rare creature types like Eye.
17:52:00 <oerjan> i'm not sure they are, anyway, could be just party goers
17:52:06 <shachaf> well, which one are you going to choose
17:52:15 <b_jonas> Nightmare night! What a fright! Give us something sweet to bite!
17:52:24 <oerjan> i'm going to depend on my trusty non-working doorbell hth
17:52:47 <b_jonas> sure, it exists everywhere where shops can sell expensive Haloween costumes and decorations, and where people watched american films in the VC
17:53:06 <shachaf> next time i'm trick-or-treating in trondheim i'll remember to knock
17:53:30 <b_jonas> Back when I was young, children used to put on costumes at the end of February. Now they're instead doing it on Halloween.
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17:54:34 <b_jonas> “You wish for me to cow your enemies?”
17:54:47 <oerjan> shachaf: it's not like i remembered to buy any extra candy, anyway. although i do have this bag of chocolate peanuts...
17:55:13 <shachaf> you might have to dip into the oerjanstash
17:56:53 <oerjan> b_jonas: in norway they used to do it between christmas and new year
17:56:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ziim]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45017&oldid=44068 * Timwi * (-17) Change the semantics of the READ instruction so that Ziim no longer depends on UTF-8.
17:57:32 <oerjan> mind you, i have no idea if they still do.
17:58:01 <oerjan> and then they would go to people singing christmas carols
17:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45018&oldid=45016 * SuperJedi224 * (+69) /* Instructions */
17:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45019&oldid=45018 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Instructions */
17:58:37 <tswett> Sweet, I got an 83% percent on that last Easy practice exam. That's my best score yet.
17:58:38 <\oren\> Huh. I dodn't know there were lands that give you more than one mana
17:59:03 <\oren\> (I apparenly have a "Simic Growth chamber")
17:59:23 <b_jonas> \oren\: the Ravnica bouncelands? yes, those are nice
17:59:37 <b_jonas> there's actually lands older than that that do it, but the bouncelands are better
17:59:48 <b_jonas> there's an old cycle of five, plus some very old but broken lands
18:00:33 <b_jonas> the cycle of five is like the Ravnica bouncelands, but much worse, because they required to bounce an *untapped* land. that's much more of a drawback than bouncing any land.
18:01:01 <b_jonas> the Ravnica bouncelands were quite good in limited, people picked them and the Signets when only one color matched.
18:01:16 <b_jonas> they're also useful in casual constructed, but not much in competition constructed
18:01:36 <b_jonas> I'd like mono bouncelands, ones that produce two of a color, but that probably won't happen.
18:02:06 <tswett> Main thing I got wrong: the Protection ability doesn't protect against an effect that says "destroy".
18:02:07 <b_jonas> Still, I can use the bouncelands in mono-colored decks.
18:02:10 <tswett> Which is certainly counterintuitive.
18:02:18 <b_jonas> tswett: of course it doesn't.
18:02:40 <tswett> What do you mean, of course it doesn't?
18:02:45 <b_jonas> protection protects only from four and a half things.
18:03:16 <tswett> Yup. Lemme enumerate them...
18:03:20 <b_jonas> if an object or player has protecetion from foo, then it can't be blocked by creatures that are foo, can't be dealt damage by sources that are foo,
18:03:38 <b_jonas> can't be targetted by spells that are foo or abilities of objects that are foo,
18:03:42 <tswett> Targeting, enchantment, equipment and fortification, damage, blocking.
18:03:50 <tswett> I count five and a half.
18:03:54 <b_jonas> and can't be enchanted or equipped or fortified.
18:03:59 <b_jonas> right, five and a half, sorry.
18:05:26 <tswett> Just sort of counterintuitive. "You have been given the gift of Protection from Red. Red things can no longer target, enchant, equip, fortify, damage, or block you. They can still outright kill you, but they can't do it by means of damage or anything like that."
18:06:04 <b_jonas> and "can't be enchanted or equipped" means two things: that you can't choose to attach an object to it, namely, if an aura etb other than by being cast, and you have to choose a permanent, you can't choose one with protection from it unless the rules allow, and you can't choose to attach equipment with such abilities either;
18:06:59 <b_jonas> but also that if an aura or equipment is attached to a permanent with protection from it (eg. because the permanent gains protection), it is unattached, and if it's an aura, it's put to the graveyard.
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18:07:48 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, but many things that would kill the permanent target. eg. Disenchant or Doom Blade target. Day of Judgement doesn't.
18:09:00 <b_jonas> Nor does Nausea or Infest, but those don't destroy either.
18:09:29 <b_jonas> But Hurricane won't kill creatures with protection from green, because it would deal damage.
18:09:56 <b_jonas> Needle Storm, I mean Needle Storm.
18:11:50 <tswett> Enchantment — Aura. Enchant permanent. Only creatures are legal targets for this spell. Enchanted permanent isn't a creature.
18:12:54 <b_jonas> tswett: oh, I have a protection card idea too. it's an enchantment that gives reverse protection. an Aura for 1W with “Enchant creature. / All permanents have protection from enchanted creature."
18:13:11 <tswett> Ooh, I like that idea.
18:14:12 <tswett> "Enchant color. All permanents have protection from enchanted color."
18:14:26 <tswett> Not actually theoretically valid, I think. Only objects and zones can be targeted, and colors aren't objects.
18:14:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45020&oldid=45019 * SuperJedi224 * (+20) /* Instructions */
18:14:42 <b_jonas> tswett: I don't think that one would be printed. It doesn't cause rules trouble, but typeless permanents should be more difficult to make, for flavor reasons. But there's some card that turns artifact creatures to non-creature artifacts somewhere.
18:15:26 <tswett> Reify. Sorcery. Choose a rules-defined concept. That concept becomes an object until end of turn.
18:15:29 <b_jonas> tswett: "Enchant color" doesn't work, you can enchant only objects, players, and zones,
18:15:32 <b_jonas> but there's something similar
18:16:04 <tswett> Wait... I think the rules imply that you *can't* enchant a player.
18:16:41 <tswett> Only objects, players, and zones can be targeted.
18:16:42 <b_jonas> there's Absolute Grace and Absolute Law that gives all creatures protection from a particular color
18:16:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45021&oldid=45020 * SuperJedi224 * (+240) /* Instructions */
18:16:51 <tswett> Haha, for a moment I thought it's impossible to ever target a player.
18:17:01 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, and there's one or two enchantments that enchant players, and _much more_ sorceries and instants that target a player
18:17:14 <b_jonas> Lava Axe is about the most famous one
18:17:30 <tswett> Lava Axe. Sorcery. Choose a player. Lava Axe deals 5 damage to that player.
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18:18:37 <b_jonas> Ok, maybe not. Ancestral Recall might be more famous. But there's lots of sorceries and instants that target a player anyway.
18:18:46 <tswett> "I cast Lava Axe." "Against who—me or that other kid?" "Oh, I dunno."
18:19:15 <b_jonas> There's Distress and lots of other discarders
18:19:53 <b_jonas> Hymn to Tourach is well-known because it's among the more powerful ones,
18:20:05 <b_jonas> and... what's the other powerful one?
18:20:10 <tswett> Ancestral Recall. Instant. Choose one — Draw three cards. Choose an opponent and physically force that opponent to draw three cards.
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18:20:56 <b_jonas> "physically force"? no way
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18:21:26 <tswett> Sure you can. It'd be banned in Vintage, though.
18:22:20 <tswett> I don't think there's any part of the rules saying the players can't be subject to physical harm.
18:22:44 <tswett> Tournament rules, maybe, but not game rules.
18:22:51 <tswett> Besides, cards override those.
18:23:30 <tswett> Untouchable. Sorcery. For the remainder of the tournament, you can't be disqualified.
18:23:33 <b_jonas> tswett: no, but the card specifically says that that player draws, not that you force him to draw,
18:24:08 <b_jonas> further, you must give that player the chance to concede before he reveals the cards he draws if you have a Telepathy in play
18:24:29 <tswett> Right, they always have to have the chance to concede.
18:25:29 <b_jonas> obviously this applies not only to power nine, but more recent cards that make the opponent draw cards, eg. Inspiration
18:25:46 <tswett> Enchantment — Aura. Enchant player. Enchanted player can't concede. (This ability has no effect.)
18:27:21 <b_jonas> there are actually 19 auras that enchant a player
18:27:39 <b_jonas> but I hope there's still only two or three cards that give an ability to a player
18:28:39 <tswett> *. This card has all characteristics. (It has all names, mana costs, colors, card types, subtypes, supertypes, rules texts, abilities, powers, toughnesses, and loyalties.)
18:29:26 <tswett> All mana costs, powers, and toughnesses. I think that wouldn't really work.
18:30:33 <b_jonas> what are the cards that give an ability to a player?
18:30:34 <tswett> I was making an unrelated remark, not answering your question.
18:31:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45022&oldid=45021 * SuperJedi224 * (+58) /* Example Programs */
18:31:06 <tswett> Runed Halo is another.
18:31:50 <b_jonas> tswett: all characteristics? I don't think that works. what would Rush of Knowledge and similar cards do if you have a permanent like that in play?
18:32:22 <tswett> Aegis of the Gods is another.
18:32:30 <tswett> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&text=|[%22player%20has%22]|[%22you%20have%22]|[%22opponent%20has%22]|[%22she%20has%22]
18:33:22 <b_jonas> wait, that's solved automatically
18:33:31 <b_jonas> you can't have such an object on the battlefield
18:34:20 <b_jonas> because it's an Instant and a Sorcery, and in fact you can't even have it in your deck, because it's also a Plane, Vanguard, Scheme, Conspiracy, and whatever is the fifth and sixth such type too
18:34:58 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure you can have it in your sideboard. You can have Conspiracies in your sideboard, but I'm not sure about Planes
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18:35:16 <tswett> Imperial Mask is another one.
18:36:01 <b_jonas> But it certainly can't etb, and if it is on the battlefield and gets Broken or loses Humility, it will get removed from the battlefield
18:36:02 <tswett> Guess I should have also included "players have", "opponents have", "teammate has", "teammates have", and (gulp) "they have".
18:37:10 <tswett> Presumably "no maximum hand size" is not an ability.
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18:38:52 <b_jonas> ah yes, so Aegis of the Gods, Gilded Light, Imperial Mask, Ivory Mask, Leyline of Sanctity (is that a real word?), Orbs of Warding, Runed Halo, Seht's Tiger, Solitary Confinement, Spirit of the Hearth, True Believer, Witchbane Orb.
18:38:57 <b_jonas> I thought there were fewer than those
18:39:13 <b_jonas> that makes 12 that I found
18:40:05 <tswett> You're looking at them too.
18:40:20 <tswett> And yeah, "leyline" and "sanctity" are both real words.
18:40:30 <b_jonas> I totally thought there were fewer.
18:40:36 <b_jonas> Heck, most of those aren't even very new.
18:42:28 <b_jonas> And I think giving even a card that isn't a permanent all mana costs, all powers, or all toughnesses, could cause a problem, because there are effects that care about those numbers; though giving a non-permanent more than one mana cost is fine and already happens,
18:42:39 <b_jonas> and I think more than one power or toughness could be dealt with.
18:43:19 <b_jonas> I think nothing currently has more than one power or toughness at the same time, but it wouldn't break anything on non-permanents.
18:43:50 <tswett> Wait, What Were You Before? Enchantment. You're a creature.
18:44:42 <b_jonas> tswett: that doesn't work, so much that they wouldn't dare to print it even on Form of the Squirrel in un-land
18:45:32 <b_jonas> tswett: MaRo reports that he originally wanted to print it with "As Form of the Squirrel comes into play, put a 1/1 green Squirrel token into play. You are that Squirrel"
18:45:48 <b_jonas> but that doesn't work even in un-land
18:46:19 <b_jonas> later they printed Form of the Dragon in non-un, but of course it also doesn't make you a creature
18:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45023&oldid=45022 * SuperJedi224 * (+420) /* Instructions */
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18:51:14 <tswett> You. Enchantment. You're a 2/2 creature. You aren't destroyed as a result of having toughness 0 or less, being dealt lethal damage, or being dealt damage by a source with deathtouch. If you would leave the battlefield, sacrifice this enchantment instead.
18:52:20 <b_jonas> I don't think it could work in any form, sorry.
18:52:36 <b_jonas> In un-land, maybe. Not in black bordered land.
18:53:11 <tswett> All right, one more try.
18:54:11 <b_jonas> You can't have a player that's also a permanent.
18:54:17 <b_jonas> It would tear a hole on the rules.
18:54:53 <b_jonas> I think you can't even have a player that changes zones.
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18:55:40 <tswett> You. Creature. 2/2. Damage that would be dealt to you is dealt to You instead. Whenever You is dealt damage, you lose that much life. You isn't destroyed as a result of having toughness 0 or less, being dealt lethal damage, or being dealt damage by a source with deathtouch.
18:56:22 <b_jonas> tswett: that can work, though I don't see why it doesn't say "You is indestructible." instead of the last ability
18:56:37 <tswett> It can still be destroyed by anything else.
18:56:49 <b_jonas> no wait, it would say "You has indestructibility." currently
18:57:23 <b_jonas> funnily, "indestructibility" is an ability now, but "unblockable" still isn't
18:57:35 <tswett> Next you'll tell me they've changed "[This creature] can fly" to "Flying".
18:58:04 <b_jonas> it would say "You has indestructible."
18:58:06 <b_jonas> because that's how it's called
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18:59:05 <b_jonas> funnily, "unblockable" isn't an ability and it isn't even a word used in rules text anymore. sad.
18:59:49 -!- tswett has set topic: You has indestructible. | The Corruptic Channello | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/?C=M;O=D | https://esolangs.org/.
19:00:35 <b_jonas> they just errataed all the old cards to "can't be blocked".
19:01:40 <b_jonas> Aether Figment, Escape Artist, Metathran Soldier, Veil of Secrecy, Protective Bubble, they all say that now
19:02:27 <b_jonas> (Soltari Foot Soldier doesn't say that, but it never really said unblockable anyway.)
19:02:30 <tswett> Surely "can't be blocked" is an ability, though.
19:02:39 <tswett> Doesn't the rules text of a permanent consist entirely of abilities?
19:03:34 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, but Veil of Secrecy doesn't give an ability to a creature, so if you cast Veil of Secrecy on a bear, then it still gets the bonus of that crazy time spiral card, and is still unblockable if it's Humble.
19:04:29 <b_jonas> Whereas Indestructibility now gives an actual ability, so if you enchant a bear with Indestructilbility, it won't get the bonus of the Petroglyphs, and can be destroyed if it's Humble
19:04:57 <b_jonas> Metathran Solder does have an ability, namely “~ can't be blocked.”
19:05:26 <b_jonas> so if Metathran Soldier is Humble, it can be blocked
19:06:10 <b_jonas> and Cephalid Pathmage doesn't give an ability either (and never did).
19:06:36 <b_jonas> Protective Bubble does give an ability, but it's shroud only.
19:09:45 <b_jonas> Shroud is one that didn't use to be an ability: back before, I dunno, tenth edition or M2010 or something, Diplomatic Immunity didn't use to give an ability to the creature it's enchanted, but now it does.
19:14:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Bexandre/SpeedPL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45024&oldid=45010 * Bexandre * (+5)
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20:24:13 <fizzie> Link partner advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half
20:24:22 <fizzie> Ten megabits and half-duplex.
20:27:15 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, what distance is it, and is it something where you'd need high bandwidth, or something where you don't need high bandwidth anyway?
20:27:47 <b_jonas> I mean, next room, two hundred meters, city ten kilometers away, satellite a light second away?
20:30:17 <tswett> Woo, only one thing I really got wrong that time. Legend is not a creature type.
20:30:32 <tswett> I figured "Legend" was a creature type and, in addition, "Legendary" was a supertype.
20:30:43 <tswett> The latter used to be the case but now isn't.
20:30:54 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, Legend isn't a creature type anymore. nor is Hero, sadly
20:31:03 <b_jonas> nor is Lord, but that's a good thing
20:31:41 <tswett> Wall could be a land type. It isn't, but it could be.
20:31:49 <tswett> Or maybe I should say "could have been".
20:32:00 <tswett> I don't think you can have a land type and a creature type with the same name.
20:32:39 <b_jonas> yes, you can't really, because then it would be hard to tell what it refers to
20:33:18 <b_jonas> as for walls, my favourite is Iron Wall
20:33:26 <tswett> Just spell it differently. "Walll".
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20:35:37 <b_jonas> Steel Wall is nice in the sense that they don't print walls that powerful these days
20:35:55 <b_jonas> now the standard is Wall of Wood, 0/3 defender for {G}
20:36:09 <b_jonas> whereas there are lots of old walls that are underpowered and obsolated by later creatures
20:36:59 <b_jonas> in particular, Mistform Wall is a 1/4 wall for {2U} that you can activate to turn to non-wall, but these days you just get a 1/4 for {2U} any time without fuss,
20:38:55 <b_jonas> Mirror Wall is a 3/4 wall for {3U} that you can activate to turn to a non-wall, and while you don't get a 3/4 for {3U} without a drawback even today, it's still sort of underpowered as a wall that can attack.
20:39:13 <b_jonas> Most of the old walls are underpowered, and they print too few walls these days.
20:39:37 <b_jonas> Order of the Stars is another nice powerful defender
20:39:42 <fizzie> b_jonas: About one metre.
20:41:02 <fizzie> I'm trying (and failing) to scrub any personal things out of these old boxes (Sun SparcStation 5, SGI Indy) as a prequel to giving them away, but it's being difficult.
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20:41:28 <b_jonas> ok, not quite Wall of Wood. I think they also print Wall of Vines, which is 0/3 reach wall for {G}
20:42:44 <b_jonas> other nice old walls are Wall of Hope and Wall of Glare, but they're not very powerful, they're more combo pieces than powerful alone but even in combos they aren't too powerful, and luckily they do print more creatures (even non-defender) with Wall of Glare's ability nowadays than they used to
20:42:57 <fizzie> I don't have a monitor compatible with the Sparc any more (it's got the 13w3 connector -- same as the Indy's monitor, but it's of course not compatible -- I have a 13w3-to-4xBNC adapter cable, but I don't have the old CRT with the BNC R/G/B/sync inputs that used to work).
20:45:08 <fizzie> It can also do console on the serial port, but I found only a DB9-female/DB25-female serial cable -- the other end fits to a serial port in a regular computer, but the serial ports on the Sparc are DB25 female too. I vaguely recall having a gender changer adapter for this setup, but can't find it (probably it's in Finland, if not lost altogether), and I don't want to start buying stuff I ...
20:45:14 <fizzie> ... wouldn't use more than once. Plus I don't know whether it needs a straight-through adapter, or one that does the straight-to-null-modem-cable conversion too. I think the former, but I'd probably get it wrong.
20:48:17 <fizzie> For the Indy I've got a monitor, but I have no idea what sort of username/password it's expecting, and I don't have the IRIX installation media that's part of the normal password recovery. I think it should theoretically boot from network, but it's got a graphics card that Linux doesn't support. And the same sort of serial port as the Sparc.
20:49:53 <fizzie> Oh, and the disks are all SCSI, and these are the only SCSI hosts I've got.
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20:53:37 <fizzie> Maybe I could find a copy of the Irix CDs somewhere, and then do the bootp-tftp dance to get at least that one running.
20:55:04 <b_jonas> a graphics card that Linux doesn't support? do you mean it wouldn't be able to have accelerated graphics, or that it wouldn't be able to show anything on the display even if you do some dances compiling a custom kernel and programs?
20:55:19 <b_jonas> use it through network and serial console then
20:55:36 <b_jonas> oh, you don't have a monitor anyway?
20:55:42 <fizzie> I have a monitor for the Indy.
20:55:56 <fizzie> It's just not compatible with the Sparc.
20:56:14 <fizzie> I explained my serial port woes a while ago.
20:56:46 <fizzie> No, just female on both my only serial cable and the machine.
20:56:48 <b_jonas> I think you can give away them without, those serial port cables aren't difficult to get
20:57:11 <b_jonas> isn't female the normal gender for that? um
20:57:31 <b_jonas> serial ports should be male on the machine
20:57:42 <fizzie> Yes, except they're female on both the Sparc and Indy.
20:57:45 <fizzie> They like to be different.
20:57:48 <b_jonas> yes, that would be more difficult to solve
20:58:07 <fizzie> I did have an adapter, because I've used the serial console. I just don't want to get a new one.
20:58:48 <fizzie> Also I can't give them away without getting them working, because I want to see what I've saved there.
20:58:51 <b_jonas> does it have some sort of standard socket on the motherboard that is connected to a female port, and where you could replace that cable inside the chasis, perhaps?
20:59:15 <b_jonas> also, does it at least take a keyboard on a port you have a keyboard for?
20:59:26 <fizzie> Yes, I've got authentic SGI and Sun keyboards for both.
20:59:49 <fizzie> I think the Indy is PS/2, anyway.
20:59:50 <b_jonas> what ports do those use, out of curiosity?
21:00:06 <fizzie> The Sun one is... I don't know what it's called, it's just "that Sun keyboard/mouse port".
21:00:17 <fizzie> You plug the mouse to the keyboard, and the keyboard to the machine.
21:01:07 <fizzie> I'm going to try doing the IRIX netboot for password recovery first, that *should* work if I find an IRIX disc.
21:01:15 <fizzie> At least http://articles.techrepublic.com.com/5100-10878_11-1032878.html seems very very helpful.
21:01:20 <fizzie> That's the wrong link.
21:01:33 <fizzie> http://software.majix.org/irix/install-network.shtml was what I was aiming at.
21:01:35 <b_jonas> anyway, if you give them away to collectors, they might have the right tools to use them
21:01:45 <b_jonas> hardware from other partial machines
21:01:49 <fizzie> Yes, yes, but: 20:58 <fizzie> Also I can't give them away without getting them working, because I want to see what I've saved there.
21:02:10 <fizzie> One of them has my IRC logs, for example.
21:02:15 <b_jonas> can't you just read the hard disks in another computer?
21:02:24 <fizzie> I don't have anything that speaks SCSI except for these two. :p
21:02:37 <b_jonas> borrow a scsi card, or a machine that has a scsi card
21:02:50 <b_jonas> ask a friend with access to such a machine to copy it for you
21:03:05 <fizzie> I don't know anyone, at least in this country. Though maybe I could ask around.
21:03:20 <b_jonas> ask around, they might have a server like that
21:03:29 <b_jonas> can those hard disks be hotplugged?
21:05:29 <fizzie> I don't think the internal ones can. The external ones, sure.
21:05:44 <fizzie> SCSI is a mess of standards, anyway. I'll see if I can get this done without resorting to any extra equipment.
21:06:35 <fizzie> I seem to recall that my boss's boss's monitor (we were moving desks, happened to notice) at work has BNC inputs, I could maybe plug the Sparc into that.
21:06:42 <b_jonas> so you can't easily put a linux on neither of the machines?
21:07:26 <b_jonas> oh, BNC inputs is another of those things that you can find at a friend, though carrying the machine might be more difficult than just carrying a hard disk
21:08:15 <fizzie> b_jonas: The Sparc has OpenBSD on it, but it's hard to netboot it "blindly" without having either a real console or a serial one.
21:10:07 <fizzie> Oh, actually the Indy's serial ports are some sort of weird round DIN connectors.
21:10:28 <b_jonas> you can probably find a converter for that
21:10:56 <b_jonas> or get an engineer to make some temporary wires.
21:11:09 <b_jonas> or even a permanent converter
21:12:45 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/jackolantern.jpg
21:13:30 <fizzie> For the record (got to Indy's boot monitor), it's got the GR3-XZ graphics.
21:14:01 <fizzie> "There's no support for the XZ board since there's no documentation for it available", writes someone on the linux-mips mailing list.
21:14:11 <\oren\> the bag behind them is full of candy
21:18:34 <fizzie> "ec0: machine has bad ethernet address: 06:08:7f:f1:08:08"
21:18:38 <fizzie> What's so bad about that?
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21:35:50 <\oren\> I'mma give each kid like two full size choclate bars and a lollipo[p
21:36:04 <\oren\> because fuck you, parents
21:36:42 <\oren\> especially parents who try to control sugar intake. fuck them hard
21:36:49 <newsham> you know they sell paper straws that are full of granulated sugar
21:37:03 <newsham> but we're good at keepign your plan from working
21:37:12 <newsham> we collect the candy, dole it out slowly and mostly just eat it ourselves
21:37:16 <newsham> because parents arent on a sugar diet
21:37:49 <newsham> sugar straws http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_r4c80ZXXzGo/TSs94JdFsoI/AAAAAAAAB-Q/Oad9CA5KqOo/s1600/Sugar_Diva_Pink_Dots_Stripe_Paper_Straws.png
21:37:52 <\oren\> well I made sure to pick ones like Caramilk that in my esperience make old people get sick
21:38:07 <newsham> http://tj-prod-media.s3.amazonaws.com/2013/09/Screen-Shot-2013-09-05-at-9.16.23-AM-550x370.png
21:42:58 <fizzie> Hrm. Linux doesn't know how to mount the IRIX 6.5 installation disc image, because it's too SGI. (For net-booting, the tftp server needs to have the files from it.)
21:43:33 <fizzie> Oh, it's supposedly just regular EFS.
21:43:58 <fizzie> Well, that was almost disappointingly easy (-t efs).
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21:45:11 <\oren\> are you trying to install IRIX on a modern computer
21:45:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: he's trying to get an old IRIX machine and an old Sun machine to work,
21:45:48 <b_jonas> and read the data saved on their hard disks
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21:51:04 <fizzie> This fiddling is so much fun, I hope I don't start to regret my decision to give these away.
22:01:59 <\oren\> fizzie: what kind of candy are you going to/have already give out?
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22:12:30 <fizzie> I don't think I'm doing any of that. Do they even do that here?
22:12:56 <fizzie> (Also, I don't get it: this installation media only has fx, no sash.)
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22:23:43 <\oren\> what god-forsaken country doesn't do Halloween?!?!
22:24:27 <fizzie> I haven't seen that much Halloween going on here in the UK.
22:24:33 <fizzie> We did have lots of candy at work, though.
22:24:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think we talked about this a few hours ago. “Back when I was young, children used to put on costumes at the end of February. Now they're instead doing it on Halloween.”
22:25:23 <fizzie> Oh, oh *course*. The CD doesn't have sash in the *filesystem*, it's got it somehow as a separate partition: http://sprunge.us/iAci
22:25:36 <b_jonas> As for candy, we eat them on --12-06, when Santa Claus fills shoes of good boys with them. It's shoes because boys no longer wear stockings.
22:25:53 <fizzie> parted can read SGI disk labels, but of course loop-mounting doesn't do partitions.
22:26:02 <b_jonas> (But of course you can put on costumes or eat candy any other day too.)
22:26:38 <b_jonas> No wait, we eat them on --12-07, because Santa Claus brings them on the night after --12-06
22:26:39 <fizzie> I remember being annoyed by this in a more reasonable context, something about having a full-hard-disk image and not being able to conveniently see/mount the individual partitions.
22:26:55 <fizzie> I forget about any workarounds. I guess I could just dd those things out.
22:27:11 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think these days you can loop mount partitions
22:27:24 <b_jonas> fizzie: as in, set an offset, and lately size too, to the loop device
22:27:32 <b_jonas> possibly explicitly with losetup or its bsd equivalent command
22:27:45 <fizzie> Yes, but I don't think the partition has any sort of file system, it's just the data.
22:27:48 <b_jonas> that's how you access partitions if the kernel doesn't understand your partition table
22:28:35 <fizzie> As far as I can tell. The CD has a SGI disklabel, with one xfs partition, and two "file" partitions.
22:28:41 <b_jonas> I mean, partitions can have a short boot loader at their start
22:28:51 <b_jonas> like a few ten kilobytes at most
22:29:05 <b_jonas> but then usually they load files from the file system (possibly specially prepared files, not just any file)
22:29:15 <fizzie> Well, it doesn't work like that here.
22:29:49 <b_jonas> old versions of Linux could work that way too, they could be loaded right from a floppy disk without a boot loader,
22:29:53 <b_jonas> but then you don't get boot parameters
22:30:15 <b_jonas> but that was removed a year ago or so, because now boot loaders are much better, nobody uses floppy disks, and people want real boot parameter strings
22:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary combinatory logic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45025&oldid=13884 * 121.223.2.235 * (-8) Site was moved to github
22:30:38 <b_jonas> and kernels often don't even fit in a floppy disk
22:30:39 <fizzie> Yes, but this isn't even at the start of the disc. I think the idea is that the PROM is clever enough to understand the SGI disklabel partition table format, but not the actual filesystem, so you put the kernel as a "partition" and tell it to load that.
22:30:54 <fizzie> It's got both sashARCS and sash64 to support MIPS32 and MIPS64 with the same disc.
22:30:57 <b_jonas> floppy disks usually aren't partitioned, but that's mostly because they're small
22:31:01 <b_jonas> the hard disk is bigger, right?
22:31:06 <fizzie> Well, it's a CD image.
22:31:17 <fizzie> Though it could well be the same sort of setup for the hard disk.
22:32:43 <fizzie> There's a 18.7 MB partition with xfs listed as the file system type, the 32- and 64-bit sash executables (281 kB, 342 kB) and a big 431MB partition with no file system type or name.
22:32:58 <fizzie> Which seems to be the thing I get mounted when I loop-mount that with -t efs.
22:33:37 <fizzie> Welp, I'll try extracting just the sashARCS binary. I'm not that interested in actually installing IRIX, just booting into sash should be enough to let me mount the hard disk and reset the password.
22:33:37 <b_jonas> so could you at least copy the contents of the hard disk to some other disk you can read elsewhere?
22:33:54 <b_jonas> oh, you want to reset the password too
22:34:06 <fizzie> Well, I mean, not necessarily, but that seems almost easiest.
22:36:36 <fizzie> I can't understand why I can never remember which one of dd's skip/seek does what.
22:37:04 <b_jonas> skip is input, seek is output? or not.
22:37:12 <b_jonas> before the toaster stabs you
22:37:52 <fizzie> But I always have to read the man page.
22:37:55 <fizzie> sashARCS: MIPSEB MIPS-II ECOFF executable (impure) not stripped - version 7.30
22:38:02 <fizzie> That's very promising, I think I hit the right offset.
22:38:36 <fizzie> Will be interesting to see if my regular DHCP server is good enough in faking BOOTP for it, though.
22:38:38 <b_jonas> output is seek, because output seeking can't work on an unseekable file handle, whereas input skipping can just read if the input is unseekable
22:38:51 <fizzie> Hey, that's a nice mnemonic.
22:40:36 <b_jonas> now the question is, are skip and seek relative to SEEK_SET or SEEK_CUR if dd operates on file descriptors that are already sought?
22:41:13 <b_jonas> and my answer is: just use perl for that kind of stuff. and don't forget to binmode on non-unix.
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22:41:41 <b_jonas> though dd is useful because of the built-in reaction to SIGUSR1
22:48:30 <fizzie> It says: "ec0: bad ethernet address 6:8:7f:f1:8:8" + "unable to load bootp()..." and so on.
22:49:51 <fizzie> There seems to be an answer about this in the NetBSD sgimips port's FAQ.
22:50:14 <fizzie> It involves manually writing to the PROM.
22:50:35 <fizzie> It's just a bit strange, because this thing used to work, with no "bad ethernet address" errors.
22:52:02 <fizzie> Well, at least the dump command they suggest matches with the supposedly bad ethernet address.
22:53:39 <fizzie> "It's a very good idea to reuse the address the machine was shipped with. Check the back of the machine if you cannot remember it."
22:53:55 <fizzie> There's nothing at the back of the machine.
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23:03:02 <fizzie> Well, it did remember the address I set, which is maybe a good sign, although I fear problems might this sound like hardware ones.
23:04:45 <fizzie> Says the same "bad ethernet address" for the new value I've set. I'd really like to know what makes an address bad.
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23:08:30 <b_jonas> argh. I'll probably need to install newer versions of stuff
23:10:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript II]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=45026&oldid=45023 * SuperJedi224 * (+130) /* Instructions */
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23:43:50 <nitrix> When witches go riding, and black cats are seen, the moon laughs and whispers, ’tis near Halloween. Hope you're enjoying the festivities and having a scary good time! MUAHahahAHah! >:)
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23:52:03 <\oren\> yup! but the most important part to me is the look on some well meaning woman's face when I give her son two chocolate bars and a handful of lollipops!
23:54:02 <\oren\> ha, you want your kids to be healthy? healthy, THIS
23:55:50 <\oren\> to compound the horror, the lollipops are the sour kind and the chocolate bars are cramilk and coffee crisp