00:00:36 <Sgeo_> oren, anyone who likes good music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3z7gfeJw0g
00:16:41 <FreeFull> tswett: I'm not sure what they mean by top & bottom if two of those sides aren't it
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00:46:01 <fizzie> That reminds me of that one thing that I can't remember the name of.
00:46:31 <oerjan> is it amortization hth
00:47:23 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
00:47:33 <oerjan> also, "faces" is probably more standard terminology than "sides"
00:48:03 <oerjan> SO GENE RAY IS ENTIRELY CORRECT hth
00:48:46 <fizzie> oerjan: No, it was that Manbo-dead-behind-the-house-P thing.
00:50:28 <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't durkon use disruption again in olist 429 like in 104 twh
00:55:19 <oerjan> shachaf: well the sword is starmetal now. otherwise i dunno.
00:55:37 <lambdabot> http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Disruption
00:56:14 <shachaf> isn't the sword just as non-bludgeoning as before?
00:57:01 <shachaf> perhaps it's http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/disruptingWeapon.htm
00:57:14 <oerjan> but perhaps his phylactery is negating the effect?
00:57:36 <shachaf> he had the phylactery before too
00:57:37 <oerjan> because surely rich cannot just have messed up.
00:57:48 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but roy didn't _know_ he had
00:57:57 <oerjan> he was surprised that xykon came back
00:58:03 <shachaf> ok but last time xykon destroyed the sword
00:59:10 <oerjan> that is true, so the theory hasn't been properly tested
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01:12:46 <Sgeo_> oren, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGrdGXDcoGU there's a comment that seems to have some more background
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01:35:36 <shachaf> oerjan: so what's with olist 963
01:36:35 <oerjan> so what's with not using urls
01:37:44 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0963.html
01:38:46 <oerjan> well back when i read it, it obviously seemed to be about something (demi-)humanlike the demon was incapable of grasping
01:38:59 <shachaf> i was thinking that's how they'd figure durkon out
01:39:05 <oerjan> and i fully expected it to come up as ... precisely
01:39:16 <oerjan> but it seems a bit late now
01:39:47 <Sgeo_> I've seen speculation that Durkon can give Durkon misleading memories regarding combat style, and further speculation that this is already happening
01:39:49 <shachaf> they won't be sure whether it's true durkon or what
01:40:39 <oerjan> the problem is, if they don't notice that the demon durkon is different _before_ resurrecting the true one, then i don't see how it will help afterwards
01:41:02 <shachaf> maybe something comes up where they have to keep it alive
01:45:06 <Sgeo_> Is Roy as talkative as HPoH thinks? I don't remember, but I think Roy is willing to fight when necessary, and HPoH... doesn't realize?
01:46:30 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i suppose if the resurrection _fails_ at getting rid of "HPoH", it could matter.
01:46:44 <shachaf> oh, that would be interesting
01:49:10 <oerjan> Sgeo_: hm did HPoH learn that "fact" in one of durkon's flashbacks?
01:49:23 <oerjan> (that we saw, that is)
01:49:58 <Sgeo_> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1001.html not a directly seen flashback, but HPoH references an event suggesting that
01:50:08 <Sgeo_> (Which was in On The Origins of PCs)
01:51:19 <oerjan> that's the reference i was talking about, i haven't read that book
01:53:10 <shachaf> oerjan: it's now available for the first time in digital pdf format from gumroad hth
01:56:23 * Sgeo_ also bought Dungeon Crawlin' Fools because bonus comics and commentary and I have more money than sense
01:56:56 <Jafet> > minimumBy (comparing length) ["oots", "olist"]
01:57:32 <Sgeo_> :t comparing length
01:57:33 <lambdabot> Foldable t => t a -> t a -> Ordering
01:58:27 <oerjan> > sortBy (comparing length) [Just 'h', Just 'i', Nothing, Nothing]
01:58:29 <lambdabot> [Nothing,Nothing,Just 'h',Just 'i']
01:59:17 <shachaf> they don't serve it over HTTP?
02:00:14 * oerjan isn't sure if shachaf is making the too obvious pun or being whooshed
02:00:51 <shachaf> if you're talking about a haskell-related acronym that is three letters long and ends in P, i refuse to acknowledge any such thing
02:01:07 <shachaf> and anyone who comes up with one of those is terrible
02:02:27 <oerjan> are there more than two that originated with haskell
02:03:18 * oerjan wonders if it was a bad idea to make his GND proposal while SPJ was on holiday
02:04:55 <oerjan> actually i think they changed AMP to FAM or something
02:05:03 <shachaf> not only with haskell, with the same person
02:05:15 <shachaf> you don't have to name everything
02:06:30 <pikhq> Driving in CA makes me grumpy. I should do it less.
02:07:10 <shachaf> i shouldn't have talked about it
02:07:48 <shachaf> and i didn't mean to single that person out
02:11:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i understand your name has three letters and ends with P tdnh
02:11:30 <shachaf> we should just all hug it out
02:11:49 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
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03:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making Disarray: The World's Crappiest Game Engine
04:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone has any esoteric suggestions for it, feel free to say
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04:09:13 <Sgeo_> If arrays are 1-dimensional variables, and scalars are 0-dimensional variables, Disarray should use -1-dimensional variables
04:10:12 <Sgeo_> I suppose you could take the view that arrays are 2-dimensional, scalars 1-dimensional, so you should use 0-dimensional variables, but that's boring
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07:19:53 <edwardk> oerjan: we changed the burning bridges proposal (BBP) to the Foldable/Traversable Proposal (FTP) is that what you mean?
07:20:25 <oerjan> i thought i saw somewhere a different acronym for AMP
07:20:34 <oerjan> which included Functor
07:22:10 <edwardk> its even in a ghc command line thing
07:24:16 <shachaf> The only saving grace is that GHC doesn't care about breaking backwards compatibility.
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07:28:16 <myname> hppavilion[1]: i think, esoOS should have roguelike elements
07:30:05 <myname> after each boot, commands are assigned to functions randomly
07:30:25 <myname> and there need to be mechanisms to determine the type of commands
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07:35:23 <myname> my first idea was to let builtins and /tmp always unchanged
07:36:08 <myname> so you could do echo "foo" > /tmp/bar
07:36:32 <myname> and if there is a file bar with cobtebt fooy, you know echo and > work as expected
07:37:10 <myname> if you get file not found, it could be because > is assigned to < or |
07:37:16 <myname> or echo works differently
07:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking about making the filesys a self-balancing binary tree
07:44:34 <hppavilion[1]> Why do that or why would it make programming impossible?
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07:50:13 <hppavilion[1]> Because when you can't organize files in a logical matter
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08:03:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43989 * YourDeathIsComing * (+909) Created page with "ShortScript(SS) i an work in progress programming language for code golfing. It´s written in Batch. It operates an only 5 variables:α, β, γ, δ, ε. <br /> <br /> <br /> =..."
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11:37:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43990&oldid=43988 * SuperJedi224 * (-34)
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11:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43991&oldid=43990 * SuperJedi224 * (+26) /* Instructions */
11:41:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43992&oldid=43991 * SuperJedi224 * (-3) /* Truth Machine */
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11:53:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43993&oldid=43992 * SuperJedi224 * (+766)
11:55:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43994&oldid=43993 * SuperJedi224 * (+45) /* 99 Bottles of Beer */
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14:58:53 <tswett> `le/rn hthyh/"hthyh" is a common typo for "tithe".
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16:14:39 <shachaf> it stands for "hope that helps, your highness"
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17:07:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Algebra]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43995&oldid=43965 * Rdococ * (+20)
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18:18:40 <FreeFull> Is there any web browser that follows a client-daemon model?
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18:23:54 <shachaf> oerjan: http://spirituality.chat/ hth
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18:33:23 <fizzie> FreeFull: Chrome Remote Desktop could be considered that, if you stretch the definitions as far as they go, but not really.
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18:44:23 <hppavilion[1]> An ingredient-oriented Programming Langauge would be interesting
18:45:06 <hppavilion[1]> And you combine them in a combinatorical fashion in a given environment to produce results
18:45:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure it'd be useful in Information Security or something, in that you use up "ingredients" as you do it and thus need to know exactly what you want when you start
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18:47:49 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: have you seen affine typing?
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18:49:17 <ais523> seriously? I'd have thought it was better known than that
18:49:34 <ais523> but the idea's that you can only use a function argument once, you can't copy it or use it multiple times
18:49:58 <shachaf> There are certainly resources on affine types.
18:50:02 <ais523> hmm, Wikipedia's entry seems to be here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affine_logic
18:50:09 <ais523> (logics and type systems have a 1-to-1 correspondence)
18:50:17 <ais523> and I use it in my day job
18:50:19 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substructural_type_system
18:50:50 <ais523> shachaf: it's one sentence in that article
18:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> I just used the word "Google" because it's more understandable
18:51:00 <ais523> Wikipedia doesn't have much information about affine typing/logic, really
18:51:22 <hppavilion[1]> I prefer the idea of ingredients-oriented programming
18:51:46 <shachaf> Forunately there are other results.
18:52:02 <shachaf> Anyway the "resources" interpretation of linear logic only goes so far, as far as I know.
18:52:06 <hppavilion[1]> That's "Mix echo and 'Hello, World!' in the STDOUT"
18:52:25 <ais523> shachaf: the research in that direction mostly seems to be along the lines of "coeffects" nowadays
18:52:33 <ais523> with the problem being that nobody seems to be able to coherently state what a coeffect is
18:52:50 <shachaf> I have not heard of coeffects.
18:52:58 <ais523> (you use comonads rather than monads to represent them in pure languages like Haskell, that much is widely agreed on)
18:53:47 <ais523> first relevant duckduckgo result seems to be this one: http://tomasp.net/academic/
18:54:08 <ais523> (there are a lot of irrelevant ones beforehand)
18:54:24 <shachaf> Oh, it was the first Google result.
18:54:41 <ais523> that's because Google results depend on who's searching, and so Google had a decent idea of which meaning of "coeffect" you likely wanted
18:54:55 <ais523> whereas duckduckgo results don't, and thus it can't allow for the fact that we probably want an academic/CS definition
18:54:57 <shachaf> I use Incognito Mode for all Google searches.
18:55:06 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how much that helps
18:55:08 <ais523> I mean, I'd hope it helps
18:56:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43996 * Hppavilion1 * (+561) Created Page
18:56:29 <ais523> also, a review of my webserver logs show that basically everyone either enters URLs manually or doesn't send referers nowadays
18:56:35 <ais523> who visits my site, at least
18:56:45 <ais523> and a noticeable minority send referers that can't possibly be correct, i.e. are faking them
18:56:51 <shachaf> Probably they get directed from https: sites, whereas yours is an http: site?
18:57:07 <shachaf> Browsers don't send referers in that case.
18:57:18 <ais523> oh yes, that would make sense
19:00:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43997&oldid=43996 * Hppavilion1 * (+342) Ingredients and Utensils
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19:24:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Algebra]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43998&oldid=43995 * Rdococ * (+12) updated
19:25:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43999&oldid=43997 * Hppavilion1 * (+1161) Extended the article
19:26:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44000&oldid=43999 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) changed a word for clarity
19:27:20 <mauris> imo people suck at making esolangs :(
19:28:00 <rdococ> delicious oriented paradigm
19:28:12 <rdococ> I know I suck at making esolangs...
19:28:19 <rdococ> it's because my ideas aren't esoteric enough
19:28:27 <rdococ> and are actually innovative
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19:34:31 <mauris> i've always wanted to make one about chemistry but i'm bad at chemistry, whooops
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19:39:11 <mauris> i've also always wanted to make one that's very difficult for computers to interpret, but for a less boring reason than IRP
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19:40:04 <mauris> maybe something like... you need to run some real-life processes that are deterministic but extremely difficult to simulate?
19:41:02 <mauris> and then an interpreter would need help from a real-world actor to run these processes and report on them. this is inspired by cfluviurrh
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20:35:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Categorisation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44001 * Ais523 * (+36) redirect; seems like a pretty likely typo to me
20:36:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WUUI]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44002 * Ais523 * (+9220) new language!
20:36:56 <ais523> hey, so I've been working on an actual esolang :-)
20:37:00 <ais523> let me know what you think of WUUI
20:37:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44003&oldid=41001 * Ais523 * (+10) +[[WUUI]]
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20:37:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44004&oldid=43933 * Ais523 * (+11) /* W */ +[[WUUI]]
20:39:41 <ais523> hmm, it's oddly similar to My Unreliable Past in some ways
20:40:24 <ais523> tasks: write a Hello World that's more efficient than O(2^(n^2))
20:40:30 <ais523> (note: this may involve optimizing the interpreter)
20:40:36 <ais523> prove TCness or otherwise
20:40:47 <ais523> actually, just write an interpreter that does some semblence of optimization
20:40:58 <ais523> I don't really want to write an unoptimizing one because it'd never end in a reasonable timeframe
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20:48:36 <FreeFull> O(2^n^2)? What language is that?
20:48:41 <ais523> FreeFull: http://esolangs.org/wiki/WUUI
20:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shove]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44005&oldid=35344 * Ais523 * (+15) /* External resources */ sprunge links aren't permalinks; good thing I happened to have the original around and could rehost it
20:51:41 <FreeFull> Says if the output diverges, the program is restarted again. But is there any means to have diverging output? Is there input?
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20:51:50 <ais523> FreeFull: there's a lot of randomness involved
20:52:07 <ais523> something like until(x[257]/1000); output;
20:52:13 <ais523> will pretty much output a random byte
20:52:17 <FreeFull> Ah, I see, random increases and decreases
20:53:43 <ais523> hmm, I've been playing around in this space quite a bit, I think
20:54:15 <ais523> but WUUI is better, because a) it doesn't fit neatly into any paradigm I've seen (it's closest to declarative), and b) it isn't a BF derivative
20:54:59 <ais523> in retrospect, a decent part of my esolanging career has been driven by my hatred of Java2K
20:55:42 <b_jonas> that sounds like a strange motivation
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20:56:15 <ais523> b_jonas: have you seen Java2K? :-(
20:56:41 <b_jonas> but I don't see how that's connected to esolangs
20:56:55 <ais523> b_jonas: Java2K is an esolang
20:57:05 <b_jonas> but how does it motivate you in making more esolangs?
20:57:15 <ais523> b_jonas: because it had an interesting premise and completely wasted it
20:57:47 <b_jonas> ah, so it's a _bad_ esolang
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20:59:07 <coppro> ais523: what is the probability of a cell oing 0 -> 1?
20:59:21 <ais523> coppro: 1/3 I guess, although it doesn't really conceptuallly matter
20:59:36 <ais523> especially as the probabilities are approximate anyway
21:02:46 <b_jonas> ais523: in WUUI, does only zero count as false?
21:03:11 <ais523> although division rounds down
21:03:16 <ais523> so you can effectively compare to a constant via dividing by it
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21:03:52 <b_jonas> wait, division rounds down? ok
21:04:04 <b_jonas> rounds down or rounds towards zero?
21:04:19 <b_jonas> the page says "rounds downwards towards zero" which is strange
21:04:27 <b_jonas> is it truncating division or flooring division?
21:04:33 <ais523> both! we only use nonnegative integers
21:04:39 <b_jonas> the array contains only nonnegative integers?
21:05:02 <b_jonas> what happens if the value of a cell would decrease under zero?
21:05:38 <b_jonas> so it's as if it the random walk was mirrored around -1/2, not around 0?
21:05:49 <ais523> I guess that's one way to think about it
21:10:17 <b_jonas> and when is the memory modified? after each statement? it's not modified between evaluating subexpressions, or within an output; statement, right?
21:10:36 <ais523> after the test of each while/until/unless/if instruction
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21:12:35 <b_jonas> hmm, this WUUI language indeed looks scary and esoteric
21:17:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Flower]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44006 * Rdococ * (+781) Flower, the first turing complete language I have thought of in a while
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22:02:38 <Jafet> If Java is also a bad language, wouldn't that mean that Java2K is an accurate satire of Java?
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22:41:21 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The font of all knowledge | The channel where Sir Fungellot does not. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:41:46 <hppavilion[1]> The word fnord wouldn't be redacted, you just wouldn't see it
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22:54:58 <Jafet> fungot can see fnord.
22:54:58 <fungot> Jafet: people can get over the 14g trinet upload limits." when asked, chat a bit about ircd programming :) i even don't understand your comment
22:55:40 <fungot> shachaf: the war is over. i don't know
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01:28:39 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: s/ then/ they/ my
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01:36:38 <izabera> 80% of the lines have characters that my font can't render
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01:58:47 <oren> my font also doesn't render, but the backup font does. however, that doesn't mean can actually read any of them
02:04:17 <Jafet> “A loanword I heard in Amaro- / हा was clearly not borrowed from Kham so / I guessed it was Ü-Tsang / But that was just all wrong- / It turns out the form was from Amdo.”
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02:59:36 <oren> "Writing a large number of commands into ed without printing the buffer to confirm it" #justunixgeekthings
03:01:52 <oren> "Copypasting the AES S-box from the pdf into ed, and then into Visual Basic? Priceless. For everythine else there's mastercard.
03:04:01 <oren> shachaf: does having the values in VB hex notation help?
03:04:11 <oren> &H63, &H7C, &H77, &H7B, &HF2, &H6B, &H6F, &HC5, &H30, &H01, &H67, &H2B, &HFE, &HD7, &HAB, &H76,
03:04:16 <shachaf> why would you implement aes
03:04:39 <oren> to support it in my ssh terminal thingy?
03:04:50 <oren> which i am making in VB
03:05:29 <shachaf> it will probably end up insecure
03:05:42 <shachaf> you should call it ish instead
03:05:52 <oren> that is a good name
03:06:37 <oren> people who want security whould probably not use anything written in VB anyway
03:07:17 <oren> you don't see much VB code on crypto blogs
03:11:50 <oren> I don't get this. is there an actual mathmatical relation between the number of rounds and the key legth?
03:12:18 <oren> 16 byte key -> 10 rounds
03:12:35 <oren> 24 byte key -> 12 rounds
03:12:48 <oren> 32 byte key -> 14 rounds
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03:22:52 <oren> So now I'm working on the key schedule and the cipher
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04:18:40 <oren> what if the memory is a 3d space of bits, and data types are cubes of bits, containing 8, 27, 64, or 125 bits
04:21:41 <oren> make the shooting patterns programmable
04:25:08 <Jafet> "AOLServer is the web engine that powers America Online. [...] It is similar in many respects to Zope, except based largely on Tcl."
04:30:14 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: something that will give you a headache :) but you need to do
04:30:48 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided that the Fungot tower will be able to see fnordic enemies
04:32:34 <hppavilion[1]> oren, your a fungotologist. What is fungot's TRUE form?
04:32:34 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: you have 1 message. riastradh says: does sisc have a fnord
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04:59:52 <oerjan> irc isn't globally synchronized
05:00:43 <hppavilion[1]> Must be *mumble mumble* special relativity *mumble mumble*
05:01:24 <oerjan> it's actually not that easy to _speed up_ time with special relativity.
05:01:45 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: you had talked about that a long time since i've played it 5 times, but only in a lexical environment, which the body doesn't digest algorithm or anything.
05:01:55 <oerjan> not taking the straightest path tends to slow you down
05:02:34 <hppavilion[1]> I need to know for research purposes for the EsoTD
05:03:32 <oerjan> you are a mere human, you cannot grasp true forms hth
05:04:37 <shachaf> is fungot's true form a differential form
05:04:37 <fungot> shachaf: i get it :) i'm sorry, you're wrong
05:04:45 <oerjan> but secretly we're all (including fungot) tentacled beings playing a _really_ immersive MMORPG hth
05:04:45 <fungot> oerjan: i like this room, ever, a rosemary.
05:05:48 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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05:28:33 <shachaf> pikhq: You should talk to mulrich about Agora sometime.
05:28:46 <pikhq> Was he in Agora nomic?
05:29:08 <pikhq> ... oh my goodness I think I recognize the name holy shit
05:30:41 <shachaf> No, he wasn't in it as far as I know.
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05:47:45 <shachaf> oerjan: What's the state of the art in machine-interpretable nomics? twh
05:48:30 <oerjan> i dunno, haven't been on more than one and it was > decade ago
05:55:33 <oren> I'm almost ready to test my AES
05:58:00 <oren> Ok, now I need a unit test
05:58:22 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, doesn't really seem self-modifying enough
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06:05:02 <Perdurabo> Hi I am having issues with a tarot reading.. anyone familiar with the Thoth Tarot?
06:05:12 <HackEgo> Perdurabo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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06:12:51 <oren> holy fucking what what Visual Basic has freaking lambdas?!!?
06:14:11 <oren> Dim f = Function(x) x * 6 + 5
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06:32:34 <ashl> which version?
06:35:39 <oerjan> <oren> I don't get this. is there an actual mathmatical relation between the number of rounds and the key legth? <-- divide by 4 and add 6 hth
06:36:38 <shachaf> oerjan: {(16,10),(24,12),(32,14)} hth
06:37:09 <shachaf> except i guess you mean "subtract 6 and multiply by 4"
06:37:28 <oerjan> shachaf: oren was confusingly switching the order
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06:38:11 <shachaf> I haven't played _Potion of Confusing_ in such a long time.
06:38:27 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Kan.Rift.Rift (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
06:38:29 <shachaf> @ask zzo38 Have any improvements been made to Potion of Confusing since I last played it?
06:39:24 <shachaf> @let import Data.Functor.Kan.Rift
06:39:25 <lambdabot> Data.Functor.Kan.Rift: Can't be safely imported!
06:39:25 <lambdabot> The package (kan-extensions-4.2.2) the module resides in isn't trusted.
06:42:01 <mauris> potion of confusing is unimprovable hth
06:42:31 <shachaf> Well, perhaps I can play the sequel, potion of doesn't make sense.
06:48:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taxi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44007&oldid=39128 * 109.192.2.224 * (+3495) Added Table mapping destinations to operations
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06:53:26 <oren> ashl: I'm using Visual Basic .Net In visual Studio 2015
06:53:45 <ashl> i thought you meant vb6
06:57:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Taxi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44008&oldid=44007 * 109.192.2.224 * (+300) Formated table
06:58:30 <oren> I'm trying to write an SSH Client in Visual Basic
07:00:24 <oren> but I'm having trouble implementing AES
07:00:56 <oren> Where is the crypto channel so I can troll them
07:01:21 <shachaf> The channel is where you'd expect.
07:01:26 <oren> I mean aske them for help implementing aes in VB
07:01:53 <oren> which I assume would qualify as trolling
07:02:26 <mauris> maybe i don't really "get it" but would writing this in VB be substantially different from writing it in anything else
07:03:08 <oren> No, but many people get migraines imagining VB code, let alone writing it
07:04:39 <oren> VB has a long history of being used by substandard devs for pitiful business apps which inevitably grow into monstrosities
07:06:44 <oren> anyway I think I figured out where I messed up
07:10:26 <ashl> isn't vb.net just an alternative external representation of C#?
07:12:07 <oren> technically yes.
07:12:41 <oren> But the VB syntax has this uh, visceral reaction from many people
07:13:45 <coppro> it's an alternative external representation of CLI code
07:14:15 <coppro> and even then, it's more limited than CLI
07:19:00 <oren> myname: That is still valid syntax
07:20:27 <ashl> example of limitation?
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07:33:47 <coppro> oren: where did you go to school, again?
07:36:14 <oren> University Of Toronto
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07:44:59 <coppro> you didn't hang out with any Waterloo guys, did you?
07:47:05 <shachaf> Why is everyone from Waterloo?
07:47:15 <shachaf> coppro: Did you play Prismata?
07:47:19 <coppro> because it's the place to be
07:47:44 <coppro> elyot is an acquaintance though
07:50:12 <ashl> i'm not from waterloo and haven't encountered anyone from waterloo (until now)
07:51:13 <shachaf> Lots of people are from Waterloo.
07:51:21 <shachaf> Though maybe only coppro in this channel.
07:52:12 <shachaf> They have this thing where they send students to silly valley for a few months or something.
07:56:06 <mroman> gaming graphics still suck and it's 2015
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07:57:14 <mroman> althouth GTA5 is from 2014
07:58:44 <mroman> It has sucky anti-aliasing on the PS.
07:58:45 <coppro> shachaf: yeah, it's an alternating work-school program
07:59:35 <HackEgo> gotton/gotton is a quantum of attention. Solain drives the packet.
08:00:49 <oren> Ok, now I'm getting frustrated
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08:01:15 <oren> i can't seem to get the right result out of my rijndael key schedule
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08:07:06 <HackEgo> gaszpacho/gaszpacho is a polish soup, traditionally szerved cold for hot szummer days
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08:27:46 <impomatic_> There's a Core War programming / tournament evening in Leeds tonight.
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10:06:56 <AnonymousExcepti> How would you go about handling numbers in ///? I was thinking about using base 1, but was wondering if anyone had a better solution?
10:09:09 <izabera> i don't really know /// but probably you can use the same techiques as in sed
10:10:45 <izabera> http://www.gnu.org/software/sed/manual/sed.html#Increment-a-number
10:10:52 <izabera> dunno how much of that applies to ///
10:35:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44009&oldid=43723 * Christian Irwan * (+221) /* Mathematics */
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14:15:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44010&oldid=43989 * YourDeathIsComing * (+341)
14:16:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44011&oldid=44010 * YourDeathIsComing * (+30)
14:17:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YourDeathIsComing]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44012&oldid=43980 * YourDeathIsComing * (+17)
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14:27:19 <tswett> Looks like etymologically, the opposite of "effeminate" ought to be "emasculate".
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14:41:48 <HackEgo> C Pound is Java's good twin.
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15:04:00 <b_jonas> In windows shell, DIR /s/b/a-l only doesn't output symlinks, or also doesn't descend into symlink directories?
15:04:05 <b_jonas> That's a serious question.
15:06:26 <b_jonas> it seems it only doesn't list them
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15:23:07 <stalem> who's maintaining/owning hackbot and its wisdomme knowledges?
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15:32:34 <stalem> aw, hackbot should at least know about its creator
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16:23:04 <oerjan> <AnonymousExcepti> How would you go about handling numbers in ///? I was thinking about using base 1, but was wondering if anyone had a better solution? <-- hm i would have pointed em to my Deadfish implementation. although i guess it _is_ base 1 most of the time.
16:26:34 <oerjan> <izabera> dunno how much of that applies to /// <-- well /// doesn't have regexps, but this method can be adapted.
16:27:27 <izabera> the regex part of number handling in sed is that digits match themselves
16:28:19 <oerjan> hm actually it's not that directly adaptable.
16:28:39 <oerjan> might need to convert each digit into unary first, similar to what i did.
16:29:17 <oerjan> otherwise you would need a real loop, which is overkill
16:31:44 <oerjan> oh wait no that's not necessary.
16:33:30 <oerjan> multiple inheritance hth
16:39:10 <oerjan> an inheritance n-category
16:39:35 <oerjan> don't worry, i barely understand any of it
16:39:52 <hppavilion[1]> My formal education in mathematics caps at the very beginning of Alg. II
16:40:03 <oerjan> n-categories are like a higher-dimensional version of categories
16:40:26 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
16:43:34 <hppavilion[1]> foo = class(extends=[...], implements=[...], interface=True|False, abstract=True|False, meta=type, etc...) {...}
16:44:06 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: assuming you're referring to the diagram at the top of Category theory, that's sort of relevant for inheritance. if class A inherits from class B and C, and both class B and C inherit from D, you'd like A to get the "same" D both ways. that can be expressed in such a commutative diagram, and means that inheritance is a simple sort of category.
16:45:23 <oerjan> well, in a category every object has an identity morphism, which translates to every class being trivially its own ancestor.
16:45:54 <hppavilion[1]> (it is like an abstract class for abstract classes)
16:46:05 <oerjan> and you can have loops.
16:46:49 <oerjan> and then the question is, when you have a loop must it be trivial. or can a class be its own ancestor in a nontrivial way...
16:47:19 <hppavilion[1]> Are classes that inherit from two classes that share a parent called incest-borne classes?
16:48:54 <oerjan> i don't know half of it
16:49:17 * oerjan never studied those design patterns
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16:50:48 <oerjan> i think i learned what the visitor pattern was the other day.
16:51:11 <oerjan> in haskell you mostly just use pattern matching instead.
16:51:52 <oerjan> the visitor pattern is like CPS encoding of that
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17:16:55 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
17:19:13 <oerjan> myndzi isn't even here
17:19:17 <fizzie> Not much of a celebration.
17:19:24 <fizzie> Just a list of decapitated heads.
17:19:40 <oerjan> more like stockholm's blood bath
17:20:32 <shachaf> oerjan: how do you feel about me pronouncing your j as zh twh
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17:25:30 <shachaf> i used to think that was pronounced like "here sigh" hth
17:25:39 <shachaf> probably due to confusion with "hearsay"
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17:30:11 <Taneb> shachaf, same, actually
17:30:46 * oerjan is surprised to learn his pronunciation is correct
17:31:36 <oerjan> Taneb: hm are you celebrating anything in particular
17:31:49 <Taneb> No I just felt like celebrating
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17:40:26 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, http://mysite.science.uottawa.ca/phofstra/Oct2015.html
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17:56:29 <oerjan> i sense a distinct lack of mention of beer.
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18:33:03 <hppavilion[1]> What weird ideas can we apply to Operator Overloading?
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18:36:33 <rdococ> assignment overloading?
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18:36:51 <rdococ> so you could do new objectWithAssignmentOverload() = 123
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18:50:10 <stalem> i'm gonna try asking again now that there's hopefully more awake; who's maintaining hackego?
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18:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> Are there any sums of fractions with denominators (- {1, 2, 3, 6} whose denominator (/- {1, 2, 3, 6}?
18:57:36 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think there is, but I'm just asking to be sure such as not to violate the law of conservation of energy in my esouniverse simulator (where the LoCoE applies)
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19:38:41 <myname> well, obviously not since what you are asking is if any sum of x/6 is a multiple of 1/6
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19:52:14 <oerjan> stalem: in theory Gregor does, in practice he's rarely active here and fizzie ends up doing some of the stuff that not everyone can do
19:53:21 <Gregor> If the question is who manages esolangs.org , I don't even in theory. I just own the box.
19:53:31 <stalem> oerjan: thanks for the answer mate. do you know if fizzie also has access then to the db's of hackbot?
19:53:34 <oerjan> no, it was HackEgo this time
19:53:56 <Gregor> Well, yeah, then that's me being a lazy shit :)
19:54:34 <stalem> understandable that you got better stuff to do than manage an irc bot :P
19:54:49 <shachaf> I know what the revert issue is, if you'd like to fix it.
19:55:11 <stalem> but i was thinking, in spirit of the compendiumme of wisdomme knowledges, that it would be nice to have an up-to-date web version no?
19:55:58 <stalem> cos the compendiumme is just too good to be static. i'd love to see it as a searchable, perhaps indexable encyclopedia
19:56:13 <oerjan> stalem: um boily handles that. see the pdf in the topic.
19:56:53 <oerjan> its up-to-date-ness is a bit fluctuating i think
19:57:37 <stalem> yeah, that's what i was worried about. a website with direct access to the db wouldn't have that problem, plus you'd gain the bonus of having a nice search feature
19:57:38 <oerjan> stalem: you can do some searching in the repository browser
19:57:51 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:58:00 <oerjan> stalem: try that last link hth
19:58:22 <stalem> hey nice i might be able to use that!
19:58:41 <stalem> oerjan to the rescue tdh
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21:30:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Doorspace]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44013 * Martin Büttner * (+235) Created page with "What an interesting language. :) Would you mind including a sentence about the significance of the alternative name "Qugord"? --~~~~"
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21:35:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44014&oldid=43966 * Rdococ * (+13) /* My esoteric programming languages */
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22:19:52 <izabera> Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about strident-rutabaga.
22:20:01 <izabera> thanks github that's exactly what i was looking for
22:22:49 <int-e> this-repo-name-is-neither-short-nor-whatwasit?
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22:34:19 <fizzie> Not just any rutabaga, a strident one.
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00:15:52 <oren> gragh. my aes key expansion still isn't working
00:27:56 <fizzie> Are you... reimplementing AES?
00:28:06 <oren> yes. In visual basic
00:28:55 <oren> http://hastebin.com/anopomiyay.vbs
00:29:23 <oren> thats what I have so far but the key expansion is not giving the righyt output
00:30:12 <fizzie> I thought you were going to use existing crypto.
00:30:51 <oren> I'll do that if this gets too frustrating
00:31:31 <oren> what's weird is only a few of the bytes of the expanded key are wrong
00:33:00 <oren> (in the particular unit test of the key 00000000000000000000000000000000)
00:33:13 <fizzie> Have you checked the iteration-by-iteration key expansion examples in the standard?
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00:36:00 <oren> that's true, I should just log the same things they did and compare...
00:37:56 <oren> ok never mind I had an off by one error
00:38:18 <oren> hi ProofTechnique
00:38:37 <oren> I'm making AES in Visual Basic
00:38:51 <oren> http://arin.ga/CpcwH6
00:41:53 <oren> It working! I fix it!
00:42:18 <oren> ...on one example. I should add more unit tests
00:42:51 <oren> before counting it as "done"
00:43:35 <oren> however this is a major step towards getting the ssh to work
00:45:58 <hppavilion[1]> Did you just use two different links to the same thing?
00:46:37 <fizzie> I want to go on the record here that despite the suggestion, I'm in no way promoting homebrew cryptography.
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01:28:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pikalang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44015&oldid=41282 * 68.50.42.113 * (+26) /* Commands */
01:29:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pikalang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44016&oldid=44015 * Grotr * (+3) /* External resources */
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01:45:01 <mauris_> <fizzie> I want to go on the record here that despite the suggestion, I'm in no way promoting homebrew cryptography. <-- eh, someone's gotta brew it, right?
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01:46:59 <mauris_> i mean, there are presumably existing, well-tested implementations of AES for visual basic, so i think it's a bit silly to write your own, but like, if oren writes their own and tests it thoroughly as well, i see no reason to trust any existing implementation more than oren's
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01:50:57 <mauris_> (imo i'm not a professional cryptozoologist though so what do i know! i'm definitely interested to find out if there's more to it than "this produced the same output as an existing trustworthy implementation for a couple thousand random inputs, so it's trustworthy")
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02:12:22 <oren> mauris__: there are other problems, relating to the trustworthiness of VB itelf. typically crypto is written in C or even assembly so the compiler hopefully can't introduce weakness
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02:14:23 <oren> in other words just because my code looks right and produces the right output doesn't mean Microsoft's compiler or garabage collector or whatever isn't screwing you
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02:22:02 <hppavilion[1]> How can I make a language which's programs are harder to hack and are more secure?
02:22:31 <hppavilion[1]> 1) Provide well-tested standard libraries for security (no hacky hashing for you!)
02:22:38 <mauris__> oren: oh, like the plaintext lingering around in memory?
02:23:33 <hppavilion[1]> 2) Provide easy mechanisms to catch crashes so that you don't leave something open to kill it
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02:24:53 <oren> 3) provide a nocache storage modifier that disables disk cahing, and a zero() function that takes such a variable and zeroes it
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02:25:20 <Sgeo> Don't C compilers optimize stuff?
02:25:27 <Sgeo> Which is not what you need with crypto
02:25:39 <oren> (modern compilers are known to optimize out the part of an algorithm that deletes that plaintext)
02:26:00 <oren> Sgeo: yes, which is why it needs to move to assumply
02:28:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44017&oldid=44000 * Hppavilion1 * (+675) Added some stuff and rearranged
02:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44018&oldid=44017 * Hppavilion1 * (+313) Exception Handling
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02:46:08 <mauris__> !tell ais523 WUUI question: "Whenever (to be precise, just after) any expression is evaluated," <-- how many expressions is, say, "x[0]/3"?
02:46:10 <EgoBot> ais523: WUUI: question:: Whenever (to be precise, just after) any expression is evaluated,: <--: how: many: expressions: is,: say,: x[0]/3?:
02:46:21 <mauris__> @tell ais523 WUUI question: "Whenever (to be precise, just after) any expression is evaluated," <-- how many expressions is, say, "x[0]/3"?
02:48:19 <HackEgo> Thanks, walrusman. Thalrusman.
02:49:42 <oren> Ok, how is it even possible that I did the shift rows step wrong?
02:50:59 <oren> well that's solved, bu the output is still worng. back to the drawing beard
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03:00:45 <HackEgo> Thanks, lllllleeeeroooooy_jenkins. Theeeeroooooy_jenkins.
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03:01:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see a Programming Language which is centred around defining abstract machines (turing, kolmogorov, FSMs, etc) and letting those evaluate for you
03:02:01 <hppavilion[1]> Declarative programming in a nutshell, I suppose xD
03:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> @tell hppavilion[1] you are a walrus. Fear your wrath
03:04:10 <hppavilion[1]> @tell hppavilion[1] you are a walrus. Fear your wrath
03:04:24 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: clear-auto-reply clear-messages clear-topic learn
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03:06:42 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
03:06:49 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
03:06:55 <lambdabot> list [module|command]. Show commands for [module] or the module providing [command].
03:07:18 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
03:07:30 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
03:07:36 <lambdabot> echo; msg:IrcMessage {ircMsgServer = "freenode", ircMsgLBName = "lambdabot", ircMsgPrefix = "hppavilion[1]!~Lordofthe@133-171-58-66.gci.net", ircMsgCommand = "PRIVMSG", ircMsgParams = ["#esoteric",":@echo \"Walrus Man\""]} target:#esoteric rest:"\"Walrus Man\""
03:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> I should stop before I make someone very powerful* angry
03:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> oren b_jonas rdococ shachaf there are lonely people here
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03:13:24 <oren> So all the sub steps of AES are working perfectly, and yet the ouput is wrong?!! wtf is happenink here
03:13:55 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps fungot does not will that you have encryption
03:13:55 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: ( currycpseid a b). that means there's at the very least, they did. it's in all the shitty languages out there
03:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> fungot fungot fungot <-- I wonder if this prints more than one
03:14:19 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ fnord/ hallways/ etc?
03:16:42 <oren> I don't think so. In fact my main cipher() function is virtually identical to the pseudocode in the standard
03:21:20 <mauris__> @tell ais523 "An entire program is a single command." <-- I think you either forgot to put {} around the example program, or meant to write "list of commands"
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03:51:14 <oren> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
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03:52:11 <oren> those... assholes who wrote the standards document store their arrays with columns in sequence!
03:52:35 <oren> What kind of fucking monster does that!
03:57:11 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i recognize that the idea of doing them like that, it means
03:57:13 <oren> http://csrc.nist.gov/publications/fips/fips197/fips-197.pdf
03:57:40 <oren> look at page 33 how the keyis loaded into the matrix
03:58:28 <oren> 4 bytes of the input goes into each column
03:58:55 <tswett> So I realized that the snub cube has a problem, considered as a die.
03:59:01 <tswett> (Besides the fact that it's not fair.)
03:59:33 <tswett> Now, there are three classes of faces: squares; triangles adjacent to squares ("edge triangles"); and triangles not adjacent to squares ("corner triangles").
03:59:51 <tswett> Every square has an opposite face. Every corner triangle has an opposite face. Edge triangles do not have opposite faces.
04:00:26 <tswett> Each *pair* of edge triangles has an opposite pair of edge triangles, but the two pairs are at a 90 degree angle to each other.
04:01:05 <tswett> So if the die lands on an edge triangle, there's no top face; there's instead a top pair of faces, where one of the middle vertices is higher up than the other one.
04:01:24 <oren> So apparently those assholes should have put a Transpose(State) at the start of their pseudocode but couldn't be bothered
04:02:04 <tswett> So you could simply mark those "edge triangle pair middle vertices" with numbers instead of marking the edge triangles themselves with numbers.
04:02:16 <tswett> That's kind of inelegant.
04:03:36 <hppavilion[1]> "So if the die lands on an edge triangle, there's no top face; there's instead a top pair of faces, where one of the middle vertices is higher up than the other one."
04:03:41 <tswett> It does have the number of sides I want.
04:04:04 <hppavilion[1]> So are you going to hunt down and kill the person who suggested a snub cube?
04:04:04 <tswett> I pretty much can't imagine going with a shape that's not either a snub cube or a variant of the snub cube.
04:04:23 <tswett> No, I think the snub cube was a great suggestion, and I'm really grateful to whoever it was.
04:04:33 <tswett> I'm just going to have to alter it a little.
04:05:48 <hppavilion[1]> Well I should get around to finding out what a snub cube
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05:00:25 <oren> http://arin.ga/Gd7e6L
05:00:54 <oren> (also has my very incomplete SSH class)
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05:02:33 <Walpurgisnacht> Explain what monads are in full depth from memory but very simply
05:04:10 <oren> Iv'e heard they're used as a way to encapsulate statefulness away from the pure functional code
05:08:38 <oren> However in addition Haskell represents basically all data structures as monads, for uh... reasons.
05:15:31 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: the programming definitions: they're a way to chain computations with a certain context together
05:15:56 <mauris> here "context" is a very vague thing, of course!
05:18:25 <mauris> it can mean, "optionally not returning a value" (a -> Maybe b), or "optionally returning many values representing possibilities for some non-deterministic computation" (a -> List b), or "computations using IO" (a -> IO b)
05:19:42 <mauris> in each of these, a monad is essentially some fluff that lets you chain (a -> m b), (b -> m c), (c -> m d), ... together in a way that makes sense
05:20:37 <mauris> (and also, supplies an (a -> m a) computation -- one that "does nothing", but in the context in question)
05:21:08 <mauris> here's a very simple computation that can fail and not return a value:
05:21:29 <mauris> @let halve x = if even x then Just (x `div` 2) else Nothing
05:21:41 <mauris> > [halve 2, halve 3, halve 4, halve 5, halve 6]
05:21:43 <lambdabot> [Just 1,Nothing,Just 2,Nothing,Just 3]
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05:22:37 <mauris> okay, haskell made that confusing. but it's (Int -> Maybe Int), essentially.
05:23:13 <mauris> now, suppose we want to halve a thing three times, but if we fail along the way there, return Nothing
05:23:48 <mauris> we can't do: halve (halve (halve 24))
05:24:04 <mauris> because halve wants an Int, not a Maybe Int!
05:24:16 <mauris> so we use the confusingly-typed:
05:24:21 <lambdabot> Monad m => m a -> (a -> m b) -> m b
05:24:46 <mauris> it takes the result of some computation, and the next step to pipe that value through
05:25:34 <mauris> > halve 24 >>= halve >>= halve
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05:27:00 <mauris> this is much nicer than what we'd have to write otherwise: https://bpaste.net/show/898533b7f3f7
05:28:55 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: do you know what the type IO a means, in Haskell?
05:30:35 <mauris> ok. it's roughly something like... a recipe for how to get a value of the type 'a' from the outside world
05:30:45 <mauris> :t getChar -- for example
05:31:29 <mauris> the crucial thing to understand about these is that you can't "call" them!
05:32:14 <mauris> (oh, i meant to write: "get a value of the type 'a' from the outside world, optionally doing some other stuff on the side")
05:32:35 <mauris> in fact, the only one that ever gets ran is main :: IO ().
05:34:38 <mauris> when you write a Haskell program, all you're doing is describing how the steps for "main" fit together
05:35:37 <mauris> you can never execute a sub-step (there is no function "IO a -> a"), only combine a bunch of them and call it "main". this is why Haskell is pure!
05:36:14 <oren> but then how do you interleave inputs and outputs to write an interactive program?
05:37:04 <mauris> and as you have probably read somewhere, this "chaining steps together" stuff happens using a monad
05:38:00 <mauris> oren: i'll demonstrate that in a bit
05:38:34 <mauris> the type of (>>=), the "bind" combinator we used before, in the IO monad, is: IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b
05:40:13 <mauris> which means: 'given an IO computation that gets us an "a", and another IO computation that WOULD return a "b" if only we knew which "a" to use, combine them into an IO computation returning a "b"'.
05:40:36 <mauris> the second thing (a -> IO b) might be confusing, but there's a really simple example:
05:41:03 <mauris> this WOULD be an IO String, but it needs to be told which file path to read from first
05:41:18 <mauris> ^ and now it's an IO String.
05:41:45 <mauris> so now we can combine two IO steps together where the second depends on the result of the first
05:41:57 <mauris> :t getLine -- from standard input
05:42:36 <mauris> :t putStrLn -- to standard output, with a dummy result () (think "void" in C-like langs)
05:43:21 <mauris> now we can write a program that reads a line and prints it by piping them together with (>>=)!
05:43:48 <mauris> :t getLine >>= putStrLn -- has the right type to be "main"!
05:44:20 <mauris> we still haven't done any line-getting or string-putting, here. we *only* described a program that does those steps in order -- the second depending on the result of the first
05:45:16 <mauris> :t getLine >>= readFile >>= putStrLn
05:45:49 <mauris> another valid program: "get a line; with the result read a file; with the result write a string."
05:47:01 <mauris> :t (getLine >>= readFile) >>= putStrLn -- for clarity
05:48:22 <mauris> a common case, of course, is that the second step doesn't depend on the first -- we simply want to put them in order
05:48:32 <mauris> there's an operator for that, too:
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05:52:42 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: oren: https://bpaste.net/show/5525a8366547 <-- here is a more complicated example
05:53:42 <mauris> "\name -> blah" is a lambda. a very common pattern is:
05:54:27 <mauris> someAction >>= (\foo -> ...) -- where ... is some other action that needs the result of the previous one -- which we've called "foo"
05:55:01 <mauris> (in the type "IO a -> (a -> IO b) -> IO b", foo is our "a")
05:55:16 <mauris> (and the whole lambda is the "(a -> IO b)")
05:57:06 <mauris> oren: the program is interactive! we chain the steps "get line; print; get line; print" together to one big "main", but when it gets executed, those steps aren't necessarily done all at once; we can perform the first step without worrying about the third one.
05:58:16 <mauris> now you're thinking: "that looks freaking awful. i don't want to write those pesky >>= and >> and lambdas everywhere! i just want to write my steps in order and be done with it."
05:59:57 <mauris> and the Haskell people agree! there's some syntactic sugar called "do-notation" that lets you do just that: https://bpaste.net/show/7df7e88f4f6e
06:00:12 <oren> Eh. >> is ; and >>= is function composition where unlike C, the functions are written in the order they are executed
06:01:00 <oren> not so awful, just uses symbols in unorthodox ways
06:01:46 <mauris> "p >> q" became "p; q" (you can put semicolons instead of newlines), and "p >>= (x -> q)" became "x <- p; q"
06:02:54 <mauris> do-notation is a bit confusing, because writing "do { line <- getLine; putStrLn line }" looks a *lot* like a bit of imperative code that you can execute. but in reality it's *still* just a pretty way to describe how they fit together!
06:03:59 <mauris> anyway, i'm derailing a bit. understanding do-notation is something you can worry about separately :)
06:04:07 <oren> that seems like a meaningless distiction to me. it executes when you run main, in the order you wrote it, just like in C
06:05:13 <pikhq> oren: That's the goal. The trick is, *not everything in Haskell works like that*.
06:05:52 <oren> The parts that aren't IO don't have to be in any order, but that is ALSO true in C with modern compilers
06:06:00 <pikhq> The goal is, you write imperative code, pretty much as imperative code, and then functional code as functional code.
06:07:29 <pikhq> Also worth noting -- IO is not the only monad.
06:07:33 <pikhq> You can write your own.
06:07:41 <pikhq> So, >> is ;, but it's a programmable ;
06:07:48 <oren> still, very nice of the Haskell makers to include an algol-derivative-mode
06:08:49 <oren> if haskell tutorials started with main = do that would make haskell much more popular
06:08:56 <mauris> the goal also is: there's no way to *call* the imperative parts from the functional parts. you can only click functional parts together, or click them onto imperative parts to get bigger imperative parts
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06:12:17 <mauris> Walpurgisnacht: if you got lost at any point, feel free to point that out!
06:12:40 <pikhq> > let foo a = do { x <- a; return (x+1) } in foo [1,2,3]
06:13:12 <mauris> the "real" way to monad enlightenment is: write a lot of code for each individual monad and then see the overarching pattern, because it's very vague
06:13:47 <mauris> the IO and Maybe monads do very different kinds of things in one way, but they're very similar in another!
06:14:39 <pikhq> (yes, a list is also a monad)
06:14:49 <oren> :t Just 1 >> Just 3
06:16:47 <oren> > Just 1 >> Just 3
06:17:36 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> Just 3) -- equivalent
06:18:13 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> valueInsideTheJust + 3) -- also possible, and if we don't supply a Just to start with:
06:18:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘valueInsideTheJust’
06:18:15 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘valueInsideJust’ (line 1)
06:18:22 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> valueInsideJust + 3) -- also possible, and if we don't supply a Just to start with:
06:18:24 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M889533674962114763625185’
06:18:24 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
06:19:16 <mauris> > Just 1 >>= (\valueInsideJust -> Just (valueInsideJust + 3))
06:19:29 <mauris> > Nothing >>= (\valueInsideJust -> Just (valueInsideJust + 3))
06:20:06 <mauris> for >>= in Maybe, if we start with a failed computation, that failure gets propagated; else we continue with the result.
06:21:19 <mauris> > Just "heya" >>= Just >>= Just >>= Just >>= (\x -> Nothing) >>= Just >>= Just
06:21:39 <mauris> if *any* of the steps go wrong, the whole chain fails
06:22:13 <mauris> (Just is simply (\x -> Just x), so it's a valid right-hand operand to >>=)
06:26:06 <ashl> yay, a monad tutorial
06:26:42 <ashl> the thing to remember is that monads are a lot like burritos
06:39:33 <ashl> here's something depressing:
06:39:38 <ashl> "When the Java 8 library team was designing Optional there was some opposition to the idea that it should contain some useful methods (essentially Optional.map and Optional.flatMap) on the somewhat spurious grounds that they didn't want their Optional to be a Monad."
06:42:38 <oren> The Java team is always trying to restrict what sort of code can be written
06:45:03 <oren> they in particular loathe functions
06:53:29 <ashl> why did they add lambdas then
07:01:15 <izabera> how do i test if $myprogram is faster than $otherprogram if the disk io is the bottleneck?
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07:01:49 <izabera> uhm, i need a fast way to generate pseudorandom crap
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07:04:08 <shachaf> another pleasant interjection from our clear wire friend
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07:10:46 <oren> umtry dd if=/dev/urandom of=temp bs=1048576 count=%nunmber of megabytes%
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07:12:32 <izabera> how do i feed it to my programs without disk being the bottleneck?
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07:15:05 <ashl> prog </dev/urandom :P
07:15:32 <oerjan> <izabera> Great repository names are short and memorable. Need inspiration? How about strident-rutabaga. <-- sorry, but my heart long since decided on "reactive banana" hth
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07:16:41 <oerjan> wait yours doesn't exist, cheater!
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07:17:39 <izabera> i must admit that reactive banana is memorable
07:23:32 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { srand(time(0)); for(;;) putchar(rand()); } | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
07:23:33 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:23:38 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { srand(time(0)); for(;;) putchar(rand()); } | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K
07:23:40 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:25:35 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { srand(time(0)); for(;;) putchar(rand()); }' | dd of=/dev/null bs=1K count=100K 2>&1
07:25:43 <HackEgo> 102400+0 records in \ 102400+0 records out \ 104857600 bytes (105 MB) copied, 6.6342 s, 15.8 MB/s
07:25:47 <Jafet> That's unusually slow
07:26:10 <izabera> i wouldn't say "unusually"...
07:27:03 <izabera> you're throwing away most of the data you get from rand and you're printing one character at a time
07:32:05 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { char buf[4096]; for(;;) fwrite(buf, sizeof buf, 1, stdout); }' | dd of=/dev/null bs=4K count=100K 2>&1
07:32:11 <HackEgo> 102400+0 records in \ 102400+0 records out \ 419430400 bytes (419 MB) copied, 5.78028 s, 72.6 MB/s
07:33:38 <Jafet> Oh, syscall overhead
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07:33:50 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { char buf[1<<20]; for(;;) fwrite(buf, sizeof buf, 1, stdout); }' | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K 2>&1
07:33:52 <HackEgo> dd: warning: partial read (4096 bytes); suggest iflag=fullblock \ 469+555 records in \ 469+555 records out \ 782241792 bytes (782 MB) copied, 0.911976 s, 858 MB/s
07:34:02 <Jafet> `` cc $'#include <stdio.h>\n#include <stdlib.h>\nmain() { char buf[1<<20]; for(;;) fwrite(buf, sizeof buf, 1, stdout); }' | dd iflag=fullblock of=/dev/null bs=1M count=1K 2>&1
07:34:04 <HackEgo> 1024+0 records in \ 1024+0 records out \ 1073741824 bytes (1.1 GB) copied, 1.17474 s, 914 MB/s
07:50:45 <fizzie> putchar() doesn't really print "one character at a time" unless you specifically get an unbuffered stream.
07:52:11 <izabera> well there's the function call overhead
07:52:58 <fizzie> And HackEgo's performance characteristics aren't probably very good if you're looking for something "normal", since UML.
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07:55:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' >/tmp/a.c && gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
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07:59:20 <stalem> that's pretty convenient
08:00:21 <fizzie> I don't like it using a useless temporary file for the source.
08:00:43 <EgoBot> sh xargs printf "%s: "; sed 's/.*# *//g' interps/$1
08:01:01 <stalem> fizzie: what would you have it use instead?
08:01:38 * stalem suddenly remembers show n tell
08:02:10 <oerjan> i'm not sure we have/had that in norway
08:02:27 <stalem> be glad you didn't/don't
08:02:59 <fizzie> `` sed -I 's{>/tmp/a.c &&}{|};s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:03:00 <HackEgo> sed: invalid option -- 'I' \ Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \
08:03:11 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's{>/tmp/a.c &&}{|};s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:03:12 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 37: unterminated `s' command
08:03:13 <stalem> i don't even get the whole point of it. 'look at my stuff, this is what i own'?
08:03:44 <fizzie> `` sed -e 's,>/tmp/a.c &&,|,;s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:03:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
08:03:57 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's,>/tmp/a.c &&,|,;s|/tmp/a.c|-x c -|' bin/cc
08:05:56 <oerjan> stalem: wikipedia suggests it's to "teach public speaking", which is admittedly something no one ever taught me afair.
08:06:04 <fizzie> `cc #include <stdio.h> \ main(){puts("you ok?");}
08:06:08 <oerjan> so maybe i should regret we didn't have it
08:06:43 <stalem> fizzie: haha good point!
08:07:15 <stalem> oerjan: that's a pretty valid reason, but then again i must be the exception to the rule or that system doesn't work
08:07:34 <stalem> imo there are far better ways to teach public speaking than showing off material things your parents got you
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08:12:49 <fizzie> Our `cc is much less convenient than ##c's candide's ,cc, which does all kinds of intelligent stuff, like having an automated list of includes, handling #include <x> without manual newlines, wrapping a main automatically if not present (even extracting other functions out of the wrapper if you have mixed functions and code), supporting input, automatically printing local variables and the last ...
08:12:55 <fizzie> ... statement's value if you don't output anything, and so on and so forth.
08:12:58 <fizzie> I mean, compare `cc #include <stdio.h> \ int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); } vs ,cc size_t s = sizeof (int); which adds includes, wraps in main and auto-prints s.
08:13:24 <ashl> how is candide implemented?
08:13:24 <shachaf> fizzie: you should improve it twh
08:14:00 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I should stop before I make someone very powerful* angry <-- maybe too late, according to /whois, walrus has a redhat cloak.
08:14:02 <fizzie> I don't think we need all of that, but maybe I could add the "automatically include standard headers" + main-wrapping parts.
08:14:16 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' | gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 -x c - -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
08:14:34 <fizzie> ashl: Huge gobs of Perl parsing code with regexps + lots of plumbing to run the stuff in a separate qemu VM.
08:14:52 <fizzie> Oh, and gdb for the "print locals and last statement" parts.
08:15:16 <fizzie> (You can also call into gdb from the code, to e.g. print types and such.)
08:15:34 <shachaf> Can't we just have candide join this channel?
08:15:42 <shachaf> That's what we do with all the other bots.
08:16:21 <oerjan> fizzie: `interp's cc already does a lot of that stuff, doesn't it?
08:16:34 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/cc: not found
08:16:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/gcc: not found
08:17:13 <fizzie> oerjan: Badly, but it does make an attempt, yes.
08:18:31 <fizzie> It broke for some things, although I don't exactly remember what.
08:20:04 <fizzie> `! c main(){ printf("%d", f(42)); } /* at least for this, though I guess you quite rarely need an explicit main */
08:20:20 <fizzie> It's supposed to try to compile both with and without the wrappings, but there was something wrong about that.
08:20:27 <fizzie> Oh, and the error messages are atrocious.
08:21:21 <oerjan> yes, what's wrong is that gcc these days supports putting essentially anything inside main, so the test for an error doesn't work
08:21:43 <oerjan> and there's no option to disable this
08:22:31 <oerjan> ! c main(){ printf("%d", f(42)); }
08:22:39 <oerjan> !c main(){ printf("%d", f(42)); }
08:22:45 <fizzie> Oh, I forgot the f() in there.
08:22:50 <fizzie> Well, *that* wouldn't compile anyway.
08:22:56 <fizzie> (It was left from an earlier test.)
08:23:06 <oerjan> !c main(){ printf("%d", 42); }
08:23:15 <fizzie> Huh, would you look at that.
08:23:19 <oerjan> `! c main(){ printf("%d", 42); }
08:23:22 <fizzie> Although it's still probably using the wrapper.
08:23:44 <fizzie> Also I have no idea how to use preprocessor directives with !c, since I don't know how to make a newline in it.
08:23:45 <oerjan> maybe we found some workaround that i've forgotten
08:24:56 <oerjan> doesn't it also use the \n trick
08:25:48 <oerjan> !c #include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); }
08:26:08 <oerjan> !c int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); }
08:26:20 <oerjan> `! c #include <stdio.h> \n int main(void) { printf("%zu", sizeof (int)); }
08:28:05 <fizzie> Yeah, I remember getting "No output." from it quite often.
08:29:10 <zemhill__> shachaf: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
08:29:10 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
08:29:36 <oerjan> is zemhill__ still broken
08:29:43 <zemhill__> shachaf: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
08:31:06 <fizzie> "SyntaxError: Unexpected end of input" on the web. Should probably look into fixing it.
08:31:23 <shachaf> spot of the SyntaxError, governor?
08:32:35 <fizzie> "shachaf.hi" did end up in the hill log.
08:32:49 * oerjan does an oots spot check
08:32:58 <fizzie> Maybe I'll just restart it.
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08:33:23 <fizzie> bfjoust@selene:~/bfjoust$ ./zhillbot.rb hill
08:33:23 <fizzie> /usr/bin/env: ruby: No such file or directory
08:33:32 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
08:33:55 <oerjan> fizzie: someone stole your precious minerals?
08:34:34 <shachaf> oerjan: what's your latest olist predicton
08:34:55 <fizzie> oerjan: I'm confused. There's no sign of ruby on the system, but it's worked before.
08:35:34 <oerjan> are you sure you didn't move servers
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08:38:20 <shachaf> oerjan: this vampire gaze thing seems p. powerful
08:38:21 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure, because I just ^c'd the bot and tried to run the same command from the bash history.
08:38:35 <shachaf> oerjan: apparently the only thing you can do is succeed in a will save
08:38:48 <shachaf> so maybe the vampire will keep using it every turn until it works
08:38:50 <fizzie> I did upgrade Debian releases, I think it lost ruby 1.9 and I had explicitly asked for that, so it didn't install 2.1 instead.
08:38:54 <shachaf> would make for a good storyline
08:41:36 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, running water is anti-vampire
08:41:50 <fizzie> On the positive side, in the meanwhile the matrix library I was using (that kepts segfaulting etc.) has graduated from version numbers 0.0.x to 0.2.0, which maybe might make it not crash any more.
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08:43:03 <zemhill> fizzie.hi: points -31.05, score 3.57, rank 47/47
08:43:51 <fizzie> I remember spending hours and doing a really crazy distcc trick to get the matrix lib installed on the previous server, because it didn't have enough memory to compile the native parts.
08:44:06 <fizzie> At least this one has fully half a gig.
08:44:19 <fizzie> That's, like, one sixth of my phone's RAM.
08:46:00 <oerjan> shachaf: i keep wondering if anything could happen to free the trapped real durkon
08:46:25 <shachaf> who's to say what's real hth
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08:46:31 <fizzie> shachaf: I think so, yes. It seems like a strange but popular number.
08:46:40 <fizzie> Wikipedia claims it does.
08:47:25 <oerjan> and also i'm still wondering if the other priests will assist somehow
08:47:40 <fizzie> Although people at work have been recommending we'd explicitly not get Nexus devices for normal phone use, because our alpha test population is really skewed compared to the rest of the world.
08:48:05 <oerjan> and the freak probability of belkar showing up once more
08:49:17 <fizzie> What was the 'huh?' about?
08:49:31 <oerjan> hm, i never found that azure city new year celebration
08:53:06 <oerjan> right there http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0315.html
08:57:45 <shachaf> not sure what you're getting at twh
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09:00:44 <oerjan> shachaf: the calendar thing
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09:03:42 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0326.html
09:03:48 <shachaf> evidence that the world won't be destroyed
09:03:54 <oerjan> well still not much. it doesn't exactly say how long after solstice it is
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09:10:14 <shachaf> oerjan: hmm, durkon still needs to return home posthumously
09:10:23 <shachaf> so it seems unlikely that he'd be resurrected
09:10:43 <shachaf> though i suppose you could count everything as posthumous, even after resurrection
09:11:36 <shachaf> but he also needs to bring death and destruction when he returns home
09:11:43 <shachaf> all signs point to vampire
09:14:39 <fizzie> Sorry, that sign doesn't
09:15:00 <oerjan> what death and destruction
09:15:38 <oerjan> i do not recall that part.
09:15:57 <shachaf> that was the prophecy in book 0
09:16:14 <shachaf> now available for the first time in digital pdf format from gumroad
09:16:34 <fizzie> Do you get a cut or something?
09:17:21 <shachaf> admittedly it wasn't an oracle prophecy in particular
09:17:25 <oerjan> i will have none of your fake prophecies
09:18:12 <oerjan> i shall define canon as "only what i don't need to pay for" hth
09:18:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SPBCL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44019 * Notjohnconway * (+1815) Created page with "'''Simple program-based computing language''' (SPBCL) is a Turing-complete [[esoteric programming language]] developed by [[User:Notjohnconway]] that are based off of the simp..."
09:19:27 <shachaf> oerjan: what about all the time investment hth
09:20:13 <oerjan> not relevant to my bank account hth
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09:33:23 <oerjan> GG prediction: finding that doctor will require Agatha to go to martellus's grandmother's party
09:35:57 <mauris> ^8ball is this always No.
09:36:13 <oerjan> fungot: thanks for clearing that up.
09:36:14 <fungot> oerjan: well, except fnord ( heh) hi yome! how's going the work on threading in gambit, but i prefer things to be potentially confused about. introduce it only after you are certain that they are not
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10:00:35 <b_jonas> how do I ask git to tell me the names of config files it uses?
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10:53:00 <fizzie> ^8ball is completely deterministic.
10:53:13 <fizzie> ^8ball And I mean more by that than just saying it's always no.
10:53:29 <fizzie> Anecdotally, it seems a bit no-biased.
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11:03:40 <oerjan> i detect a unique fixpoint hth
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11:27:26 <stalem> ^8ball has a Maybe answer?
11:28:01 <stalem> can i pipe arguments to `c? and if so how?
11:28:50 <stalem> e.g. `c main(args){...} | args...
11:29:05 <fizzie> There's no `c -- there's !c and `cc.
11:29:13 <fizzie> I don't think either supports command line arguments.
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11:29:17 <fizzie> Or standard input, for that matter.
11:29:21 <fizzie> They could easily, though.
11:29:35 <oerjan> you have gcc itself, anyway.
11:30:23 <fizzie> Candide ,cc lets you do -input=[...] at the end of the line, and the rest of the line will become the stdin. If not specified, stdin reads from `fortune`.
11:30:24 <stalem> hmm i thought `c was used earlier today, as short notation for `cc, but maybe that was !c?
11:30:57 <fizzie> Discounting spaces, digits, punctuation etc. (because all these letter frequency tables omit them), it looks like the ^8ball yes/no distribution should be 56.832% vs. 43.168% biased against one or another.
11:31:28 <oerjan> EgoBot's !c supports standard input if you use the !addinterp mechanism.
11:32:25 <stalem> there's a lot of commands and options and fun in this channel
11:32:25 <oerjan> stalem: that was probably `! c which is a port from EgoBot to HackEgo
11:32:33 <stalem> my brain is going to overload
11:33:52 <fizzie> That's a port of `thanks from HackEgo to fungot.
11:33:52 <fungot> fizzie: uh, sorry, i'll give you that
11:34:07 <fizzie> fungot: No, no, it's cool.
11:34:07 <fungot> fizzie: i can fnord on?" fnord fnord" fnord" fnord worried that there were more
11:34:15 <stalem> hah, soon i'm gonna need to write down a cheat sheet
11:34:16 <fizzie> fungot: You seem to be fnording on quite well.
11:34:16 <fungot> fizzie: hey bitwize :) good luck :) yeah, well, hrmm. i don't
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11:36:37 <stalem> hm so we have two bots, having multiple commands doing the same thing
11:36:43 <fungot> Thanks, tanks. Thanks.
11:37:11 <fizzie> Some of them were added as backups when one or the other bot was down/away.
11:37:11 <fungot> Thanks, tom thanks. Thom thanks.
11:37:45 <stalem> ah yes, backups are always a good option i reckon
11:37:57 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:37:59 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:38:02 <EgoBot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
11:38:12 <stalem> it'd be fun getting them to talk to eachother
11:38:18 <stalem> damn that's quite a handful
11:38:36 <fizzie> Of those, thutubot, metasepia, blsqbot probably aren't here any more.
11:38:40 <myname> the bots prefix messages with a zero width nonbreaking space
11:38:48 <fizzie> myname: Well, some of them.
11:39:02 <fizzie> E.g. fungot doesn't, it just has a hardcoded ignore list.
11:39:02 <fungot> fizzie: be a dear and pass on a multiple-values value in a range of ways to make the wings grow, i heard the name.
11:39:06 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot)!
11:39:14 <fizzie> Botloops are a proud tradition of the channels.
11:40:20 <fizzie> That ignore list is even more out of date.
11:40:58 <stalem> well, there's really no reason to clean it up innit?
11:41:09 <fizzie> No, I just keep appending to it.
11:41:15 <stalem> and if nothing else, it can serve as a piece of nostalgia
11:41:39 <fizzie> It's an owner-only command, since it also allows modifying it.
11:41:42 <stalem> aaah the good old times
11:41:44 <fizzie> It's technically not a list, it's a single regex.
11:41:58 <stalem> a regex with a list of matches?
11:42:11 <fizzie> Yes. So I guess it's still a list.
11:42:26 <stalem> hm but now you got me thinking is it really?
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11:42:46 <fizzie> Hard to say. The ! is part of the regex, and certainly not list-like.
11:42:51 <stalem> isn't it more of a boolean expression? or maybe it doesn't become that until the items are matched against the test string
11:43:20 <stalem> i think you were right the first time; it's simply just a regex!
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15:07:33 <tswett> I think that the ^8ball command is completely deterministic.
15:08:07 <tswett> Indeed, I know for a fact that the ^8ball command is completely deterministic if and only if the Riemann hypothesis is true.
15:10:51 <coppro> deterministic with respect to what inputs?
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15:34:39 <Taneb> ^8ball Am I Taneb?
15:34:49 <Taneb> ^8ball Am I Taneb?
15:42:20 <int-e> ^8ball did Taneb invent the 8ball?
15:42:40 <int-e> ^8ball Or did Taneb invent the 8ball?
15:43:03 <int-e> I just remembered... it uses the parity of the length of the input string.
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15:44:25 <Taneb> So, the Riemann hypothesis is true?
15:44:46 <int-e> It depends on how you ask, and how much meaning you attach to fungot's answers...
15:44:46 <fungot> int-e: when i go out to dinner with me? 3 messages in 36 seconds is too many.' will always be than o(1) vector access?
15:44:58 <fungot> int-e: i find both topics fnord expect more topics like befunge than sex/ gender/ tg ones...
15:45:05 <int-e> fungot: never mind
15:45:05 <fungot> int-e: something like 3 euros.
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15:45:58 -!- int-e has set topic: The fnord never strikes twice in the same phrase | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
15:48:47 <stalem> it's always a nice surprise when your code doesn't do what you expected, but the results are great anyway http://imgur.com/a/JDEar#3
15:49:30 * stalem goes on to turn it into a proper gif
15:52:54 <stalem> fungot: what do you think, is it a good idea?
15:52:54 <fungot> stalem: are we trying to do with the repl? why does it take to get scheme48 support :) then i love it
15:53:16 <fungot> stalem: ( i.e. flatt)) is cadr
16:08:40 <HackEgo> olist 1002: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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16:37:34 <stalem> fungot: do you enjoy coffee?
16:37:34 <fungot> stalem: nothing should be imposed upon other programmers due to the negative connotations associated with the word made ( though whether or not an rdbms, you're going to release next cfunge very soon.
16:37:51 <stalem> fungot: whoa ok nvm i asked
16:37:51 <fungot> stalem: which gets executed from the ram, spamd, mysqld and apache eat the rest argument list?
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16:50:34 <stalem> i find i'm quite ambivalent towards it. at least it's modern
16:51:56 <stalem> plus nowadays their doodles are quite entertaining
16:52:10 <stalem> like the minimoog one on moog's birthday iirc
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16:55:59 <Taneb> `quote natural numbers
16:56:01 <HackEgo> 395) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself
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16:59:18 <int-e> ("God made the integers, all else is the work of man." - Leopold Kronecker)
16:59:41 <int-e> (But of course he didn't say it in English. Are translated quotes still quotes?)
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17:01:29 <HackEgo> 6) <oerjan> what, you mean that wasn't your real name? <Warrigal> Gosh, I guess it is. I never realized that. \ 57) <fungot> ehird: every set can be well-ordered. corollary: every set s has the same diagram used from famous program talisman with fnord windows to cascade, someone i would never capitalize " i" \ 123) <cpressey> Never ever use a quot
17:02:06 <HackEgo> 123) <cpressey> Never ever use a quote which contains both the words "aloofness" and "gel" (verb). \ 560) <monqy> never ever do bacon floats or i will hunt you down and kill you augh my leg
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17:47:07 <HackEgo> 1174) <shachaf> pippi långstrump's name is translated as "gilgi" or "bilbi" usually <ion> Does she have a ring of power?
17:47:38 <oerjan> power she has. if it's from a ring she hides it well.
17:48:30 <Taneb> ^8ball Are you Taneb?
17:48:45 <tswett> The fact that there are no quotes about onions is flamingly unacceptable.
17:54:38 <oerjan> tswett: does it bring tears to your eyes?
17:56:36 <fungot> oerjan: sounds odd. i can't use
17:56:53 <oerjan> oh wait it has to be first in the privmsg
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17:58:35 <oerjan> i guess the oracular geometry is the same, regardless of spelling
17:59:22 <shachaf> the first one is oracular trigonometry
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18:01:28 <oerjan> <int-e> I just remembered... it uses the parity of the length of the input string. <-- i don't think it's length...
18:05:52 <oerjan> ah looks like the priests won't be helping.
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18:08:11 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0874.html is the other honorable soul thing i was looking for hth
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18:32:59 <nortti> idea: esoteric chat protocol. character encoding should be ita2 (with NUL) padding. thought about having even stuff like backspaces sent real-time, but then discovered ITA2 has no backspace/DEL char
18:33:35 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
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18:34:31 <nortti> also thought about limiting communication to half-duplex so it could be implemented over some rather fun systems, and having either all clients in a network, or just servers, be connected in a ring topology
18:34:54 <nortti> so, if one drops, all communication dies
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18:35:44 <myname> so you cannot add clients?
18:36:08 <nortti> you can, but you must have two other clients agree to add you between them, and a network downtime
18:37:42 <myname> sending realtime together with token ring would basically make using it impossible
18:37:49 <myname> how do you deal.with that?
18:38:12 <fizzie> tswett: spoiler it's parity
18:38:21 <tswett> Of the sum of the characters or something?
18:38:52 <nortti> myname: maybe have it have something like "block channel until message has been sent" or like?
18:38:57 <quintopia> ^8ball Does this work by finding the parity of the character sum?
18:39:08 <quintopia> ^8ball Does this work by finding the parity of the sum of characters?
18:39:18 <tswett> Hey, let's get these out of the way.
18:39:26 <tswett> ^8ball Does he love me?
18:39:29 <tswett> ^8ball Does she love me?
18:39:32 <myname> nortti: maybe a ring without a token may be possible
18:39:35 <tswett> ^8ball Do they love me?
18:39:40 <tswett> ^8ball Does it love me?
18:39:52 <tswett> ^8ball Does ey love me?
18:39:53 <quintopia> ^8ball Is the answer to this question "No"?
18:40:12 <tswett> ^8ball Do you love me?
18:41:25 <tswett> ^8ball Does e love me?
18:41:29 <tswett> ^8ball Does hu love me?
18:41:36 <tswett> ^8ball Does peh love me?
18:41:39 <tswett> ^8ball Does per love me?
18:41:44 <tswett> ^8ball Does thon love me?
18:41:52 <tswett> ^8ball Does jee love me?
18:41:53 <myname> it's basically only a matter of time until somebody writes a script to reformulate sentences to get the desired answer
18:41:59 <tswett> ^8ball Does ve love me?
18:42:01 <tswett> ^8ball Does xe love me?
18:42:06 <tswett> ^8ball Does ze love me?
18:42:08 <tswett> ^8ball Does zhe love me?
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18:42:32 <tswett> Man, there are a lot of SGNPPs.
18:43:12 <myname> so basically every "even" letter is neutral
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18:43:51 <quintopia> but "s" is not even, so "he" is better than "she"
18:44:21 <myname> yeah. also, 0 seems to be no
18:44:31 <myname> hence the missing difference between x and xx
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18:48:22 <quintopia> so no script necessary. if you don't get the answer you want, add another ?
18:49:10 <myname> so, you ask that with two question marks and you are fine
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18:51:13 <HackEgo> [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE]
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18:52:04 <myname> it's pretty hard to type, though
18:52:19 <myname> i like the question mark better
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19:22:57 <myname> https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.onemanband.thesequence looks like it qualifies as a bullying automaton
19:25:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44020&oldid=43931 * Oerjan * (+281) wikify
19:33:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hack VM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44021&oldid=43524 * Oerjan * (-2784) Undo revision 43524 by [[Special:Contributions/Phase|Phase]] ([[User talk:Phase|talk]]) (Copyvio: I can find no evidence the web page is public domain)
19:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of revisions on page [[Hack VM]]: Copyright violation
19:35:48 <oerjan> Phantom__Hoover: iirc a bully automaton can have long-distance effects in one step
19:36:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Jolf]]": Author request: content before blanking was: "A planned [[pyth]] variant in pure javascript for code golfing. --[[User:JayCampbell|JayCampbell]] ([[User talk:JayCampbell|talk]]) [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2015]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
19:38:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ℒight]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44022&oldid=43528 * Oerjan * (+6) add some required darkness
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19:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44023&oldid=44009 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Partially Silly Ideas */ grm
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19:50:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[K]]": Copyright violation: Most of the content from the KONA Github. Also, not technically esoteric.
19:51:48 <oerjan> am i going to have to double check Phase's edits...
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20:02:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Phase]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44024&oldid=43328 * Oerjan * (+479) /* Copyright */ new section
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20:15:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44025&oldid=43566 * Oerjan * (+10) case, rephrase
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21:01:57 <b_jonas> Question on notation. Who or what introduced the notation in mathematical formulas where simultanously the bitwise and operator is written as & and the bitwise xor operator is written as ⊕ ?
21:02:52 <b_jonas> This is used in, I believe, Knuth volume 4, and Warren: Hacker's delight,
21:05:00 <b_jonas> and I like the idea, because it puts together the strengths of two notation: the one from C where they're written as & and ^ resp, and the old one where they're written as ∧ and ⊕, or ∧ and ∧overline resp.
21:05:09 <b_jonas> What's the unicode for ∧overline?
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21:05:46 <b_jonas> hmm wait, maybe it's not ∧overline, but something similar
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21:09:01 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 1d 14h 30m 32s ago: Have any improvements been made to Potion of Confusing since I last played it?
21:09:24 <zzo38> shachaf: I am not sure actually
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21:16:43 <zzo38> My new Dungeons&Dragons character has both blindsense and darkvision. The rules about blindsense says that it cannot be used to read stuff, does not subject you to gaze attacks, does not remove concealment miss chance, and that you do not generally have to make a Spot or Listen check to notice something that you cannot see, but some things are not explained including interaction with spells and with objects/creatures behind you and so on.
21:22:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: does he also have normal vision?
21:23:02 <zzo38> And also low-light vision
21:23:25 <b_jonas> does D&D even have such a thing
21:24:43 <zzo38> The way we play it can matter.
21:25:18 <Taneb> One D&D game I'm in the DM forgot that most of the party could see in the dark
21:25:36 <b_jonas> Just to be sure, low-light vision just means good eyes with large lens so it's more sensitive to low light, darkvision is some sort of active light-based sensing that lets you see in what would be pitch black but in a way similar to vision (possibly somewhat lower frequencies), and blindsense is what many eyeless creatures have so they can tell where to attack even if you're not adjacent, right?
21:25:51 <zzo38> All character have normal vision too by default. It seems unusual to have both blindsense and darkvision, as everything else I have checked in the book does not have both, but the rules seems to say that my character does have both
21:26:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know actually
21:26:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: are there many monsters that have both blindsense and normal vision in first place?
21:26:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know that either.
21:27:02 <b_jonas> I thought blindsense was mostly for eyeless monsters, though they _could_ coexist if you really want to.
21:27:57 <zzo38> I know that darkvision does not let you to see colors and does not work in magical darkness, but it does subject you to gaze attacks, and I expect allows reading too. You can still see colors in daylight though
21:28:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think that's because darkvision works in the infrared frequency range
21:28:24 <b_jonas> so the colors are very different
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21:28:39 <zzo38> Yes, I thought of that too
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21:30:22 <zzo38> Taneb: That almost had happened once I think, although it was a game where I was the only player (no other players are available) and none of the NPCs in my party could see in dark
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21:31:04 <b_jonas> maybe darkvision just lets you detect the thermal emissions in some of the near infrared range
21:31:31 <zzo38> Darkvision seem clearly enough in this game.
21:32:36 <zzo38> The limitations of blindsense aren't quite clear enough though, although it says some things, such as you cannot read and miss chance for concealment still applies.
21:33:52 <zzo38> But I would assume, blindsense can still be used while blindfolded but darkvision does not work while blindfolded
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21:35:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I think darkvision is in your eyes, blindsense is on most of whole skin
21:36:02 <b_jonas> or most of the body surface, whatever it's made of
21:36:16 <b_jonas> or... I dunno for incorporal monsters
21:37:19 <Taneb> zzo38, the DM was had a great idea for this horrifying session
21:37:23 <Taneb> And it was a great idea
21:37:30 <zzo38> It says blindsense allows noticing things that you cannot see, and can be based on such thing as hearing and smell and so on
21:37:34 <zzo38> Taneb: What idea is that?
21:38:07 <Taneb> Very dark mansion, with something attacking us and running away before we could work out what it was
21:38:30 <Taneb> But because the barbarian and paladin could both see in the dark, it was like "Oh, it's a minotaur"
21:38:45 <Taneb> Which is still frightening, when you're level 2
21:38:50 <Taneb> But not actually horrifying
21:38:55 <Taneb> In quite the same way
21:40:20 <Taneb> Turns out the minotaur was someone wearing a cursed helmet
21:40:36 <Taneb> Which I almost wound up with
21:42:11 <Taneb> Well, I did wind up with it
21:42:14 <Taneb> I almost put it on
21:42:21 <Taneb> And had to struggle to get rid of it
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21:45:29 <b_jonas> Taneb: ah right... I think the rule in nethack is that minotaurs can wear helmets of soft materials (eg. leather or cloth), but not of hard materials (metal or wood), because of their horns
21:46:00 <b_jonas> still, a minotaur with a helmet sounds strange to me
21:46:11 <b_jonas> wouldn't that make it difficult for him to use his horn?
21:46:21 <b_jonas> he doesn't _want_ to wear it, probably
21:46:54 <Taneb> b_jonas, it was a polymorph curse
21:47:33 <b_jonas> I mean, D&D has some pretty nasty cursed equipment, even ones that are worse than that, but still
21:47:48 <b_jonas> does it at least polymorph you to something that can wear a helmet?
21:48:00 <Taneb> No, into a minotaur
21:48:02 <myname> i'd be fine being a minotaur
21:48:17 <b_jonas> ah, specifically a minotaru
21:52:20 <Taneb> It's got some mental cursey things too
21:52:36 <Taneb> iirc the horns were part of the helmet
21:52:37 <zzo38> A minotaur is a large size though, sometimes it mean you cannot fit somewhere else
21:53:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: exactly, and you can't fit in your body armor
21:53:02 <zzo38> So it can sometimes cause problems.
21:53:12 <b_jonas> which can _really_ hurt some characters who rely on it
21:53:19 <b_jonas> for others, it won't matter
21:54:02 <zzo38> There are many kind of curses and I have had some of my own kind of idea too
21:55:17 <zzo38> One I have seen in a book though is that a hit by a blessed crossbow bolt instantly kills whoever wears this item (this does not prevent the item from being removed normally though).
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21:55:52 <zzo38> But one of my idea can be, like in many computer game, a cursed item being worn cannot be removed; it must be uncursed or destroyed in order to remove it, but otherwise it is normal item.
21:56:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you identify such a curse?
21:56:46 <b_jonas> like, that crossbow bolt one
21:56:48 <zzo38> But I thought of a further variant of that; in addition, the curse also improves the item's durability while it is being worn, making it more difficult to destroy (although the improved durability can be an advantage too, it can also be disadvantageous)
21:57:42 <zzo38> b_jonas: The one with crossbow I expect only if you can figure it out with a spell or something like that, or if you create the item with the curse so that in case anyone steals it you can kill them with a blessed crossbow bolt.
21:59:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: if you created such a thing, wouldn't you make it so you can kill them with a use-once password instead? or would that cost more to create?
22:00:08 <zzo38> I don't know; possibly.
22:01:09 <zzo38> But even if they can identify it, then they might not know that you have a crossbow, and maybe you also have a spell or something else to protect you from a crossbow
22:01:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: one of the curses that I like is one that reverses the magic of the item from an advantage to a drawback, eg. a ring of protection that would normally give you +2 AC is cursed so it gives you -2 AC, but if it's rare enough kind of magic, it can be cheaper to uncurse that ring than to acquire a new similar uncurse ring.
22:02:39 <b_jonas> someone who has ready access to uncurse spells could even trap their own magic items, so that if they're removed from their inventory, they're cursed. then if someone steals them or takes them in a battle, they're cursed, but their magic isn't lost, he can uncurse them if he gets them back.
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22:05:18 <zzo38> There are also many curses listed in Arms and Equipment guide which includes the one with the crossbow mentioned above; another, for items that must be activated, is sometimes it uses up two charges instead of just one; sometimes both charges functions but sometimes only one charge function and one is wasted
22:06:51 <zzo38> Another idea is a flaw that you can select, if you select this one then magic item don't work so well for you, such as only one wearable magic item at a time and activated magic items have a 5% chance to fail each time it is activated, and -2 to Use Magic Device.
22:08:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's also vain items, ones that don't let you use other items of the same class while they're in your inventory (or at least gives a high penalty when you're using them), eg. a cursed sword that doesn't let you use other melee weapons, so if you meet the one kind of monster against which the sword doesn't work well, you have a problem
22:09:06 <b_jonas> This is easiest for weapons, because many characters want to have two weapons with them.
22:09:55 <zzo38> If it does not also have a curse to prevent you from removing it, then you could try to throw it out, but then you won't have it anymore
22:10:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but you might meet multiple monsters at once
22:10:30 <b_jonas> if you throw it out, something could happen with it
22:10:31 <zzo38> Yes that is possible
22:11:54 <b_jonas> Munchkin has a sword that I think is somewhat overpowered, which has only one drawback, namely that you can't fight an octopus with it (you must run away if you meet one)
22:12:07 <b_jonas> some very rare kind of monster
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22:13:41 <b_jonas> This seems a very weak drawback compared to other equipment with a comparable bonus. Those other equipment typically take up too many slots (eg. they're two-handed or large) or are restricted to a class or race.
22:16:59 <b_jonas> There's also something like that backwards, a vorpal sword that insta-kills monsters whose names start with "J".
22:17:53 <zzo38> Another kind of curse, for activated items only, can be when activated you take -2 AC for 1 minute, or something like that.
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22:18:33 <b_jonas> a worse version is one that paralyzes you for some time after you activate it
22:18:54 <zzo38> Yes, although either way the effect otherwise still works
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22:23:27 <izabera> is there any utf8 expert here?
22:23:39 <zzo38> izabera: What is it that you need?
22:24:03 <izabera> well i have 4 different wc's (one of which i wrote) that report 4 different number of utf8 characters for the same file
22:24:37 <mauris> i can think of many reasons why that would happen
22:24:48 <zzo38> izabera: I would just not count bytes in the range 0x80 to 0xBF, that is a simple way
22:25:29 <izabera> well that's chopping away a lot of characters
22:26:20 <zzo38> Some flaws given in this book include: Feeble = -2 to Str/Dex/Con ability checks and skill checks; Frail = -1 HP per level; Inattentive = -4 Listen, -4 Spot; Meager Fortitude = =3 Fortitude; Noncombatant = -2 melee attack roll; Slow = half of your base land speed; Vulnerable = -1 AC.
22:26:54 <zzo38> I would want to make up some of my own too, one which make you cannot use magic items so effectively, is one of my idea.
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22:27:20 <mauris> zzo38: some would argue that \x61 \xCC \x81 is one UTF-8 character á
22:28:00 <fizzie> Some would argue that wc would be expected to count code points.
22:28:27 <mauris> it's all really messy! why are people so interested in "the length of a string" anyway imo
22:28:55 <zzo38> I would expect you should need a different program for counting codepoints as for counting bytes anyways, such as "wcutf8" instead of just "wc" can be used.
22:28:56 <izabera> `` printf '\x61\xCC\x81' | wc -m
22:29:45 <fizzie> `` unidecode $(printf '\x61\xCC\x81')
22:29:46 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0301 COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT]
22:30:35 <zzo38> Maybe "wc -m" is also locale-specific though; it seem that with C locale it is 3
22:31:03 <zzo38> But you could also use "utftovlq 18 | wc -c" to count UTF-8 codepoints.
22:31:07 <fizzie> izabera: Anyway, zzo38's method succeds in counting code points because all UTF-8 code point encodings are either (a) one byte between 0x00..0x7f, or (b) multiple bytes, of which exactly one (the first one) is 0xc0 or higher.
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22:32:50 <izabera> do i have to include 0x80 and 0xBF ?
22:33:17 <zzo38> No you do not count them
22:33:35 <zzo38> All bytes 0x80 up to 0xBF inclusive are not counted.
22:33:45 <mauris> this method breaks for invalid utf-8 strings, but honestly, what doesn't?
22:34:50 <zzo38> Yes, although if it is invalid then what you have to do depend much on what you are trying to make anyways, so it doesn't matter here.
22:34:57 <zzo38> Use separate program to verify if you need it
22:35:37 <stalem> now soothe your souls with https://vimeo.com/138247957 , my way of friday fun
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22:37:44 <mauris> import sys; print(len(sys.stdin.buffer.read().decode('utf-8'))) # wcutf8.py
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22:38:19 <zzo38> Yes that is another way, if you are using Python
22:38:21 <mauris> please use something like that instead of a nasty byte-level hack :<
22:38:58 <mauris> (oh yeah, it's python 3, specifically; i don't think it will work on python 2)
22:39:25 <zzo38> I just used "utftovlq 18 | wc -c" to count UTF-8 codepoints, it is a hack too but can use an existing program (although not a common one; it is one I wrote)
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22:46:17 <zzo38> Also how much memory would your Python program use though?
22:48:58 <mauris> oh, .read() does make a big byte string, probably a bad idea for very huge files
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22:50:54 <zzo38> Yes it is why, I used the other way instead.
22:51:28 <hppavilion[1]> What is why you used what other way instead of what?
22:51:38 <zzo38> It is a program I wrote for a different purpose but now we can use for this purpose too.
22:51:48 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: See the recent logs in case you do not know the context
22:54:57 <hppavilion[1]> Can you just give me a brief description of what you're making?
22:56:04 <zzo38> Counting how many UTF-8 character of input.
22:56:39 <zzo38> I used "utftovlq 18 | wc -c" since it is program I already have.
22:57:36 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
23:10:04 <mauris> (shachaf: i don't think this scow idiom exists outside of "things shachaf says on irc" :( are they remarkably shitty boats?)
23:10:42 <mauris> maybe it's from hebrew twei
23:10:43 <shachaf> But the origin is related to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_scow
23:11:18 <shachaf> "the scow of X" means something like "the worst specimen of X"
23:11:29 <shachaf> Something can be a scow, or it can just be scow. Or utter scow.
23:11:45 <shachaf> I shouldn't be saying this in a logged channel.
23:12:01 <shachaf> Don't want it in Google search results.
23:12:35 <zzo38> Then program the robots.txt of the logs to not be use with Google, if that is how you want
23:12:56 <shachaf> I'm not the one keeping the logs.
23:13:57 <mauris> i found one result on google for "the scow of" that i *think* uses it in that sense, from the 50s
23:14:21 <shachaf> Unlikely. That sense was invented in 2013 as far as I know.
23:16:13 <mauris> where'd you pick it up from? (also is this stuff top secret, twewydwiigsr)
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23:28:05 <oren> hppavilion[1]: I'm home now
23:29:10 <hppavilion[1]> If one were to create a language in which one can define a potentially infinite FSM
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23:30:15 <mauris> do you know what the F in FSM stands for
23:31:48 <mauris> also, that sounds plausibly TC, yeah, every possible tape state for a TM corresponding to a state in the state machine
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23:52:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph rewriting]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44026 * Hppavilion1 * (+112) Created Page
23:52:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph rewriting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44027&oldid=44026 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a link
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23:57:13 <stalem> just me, but i was just about to head to sleep
23:57:26 <mauris> "Rewriting denotes a form of computation where a data structure is replaced by a modified form of itself, sometimes repeatedly."
23:58:04 <mauris> that sounds vague! i mean isn't that all computations on a tape ever, in a way
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00:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: A Tape is a Graph where every node has one link except the end, which has none
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00:03:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rewriting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44028&oldid=35039 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Linked to Graph Rewriting mauris
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00:13:45 <zzo38> Do you mean directed graphs?
00:15:13 <zzo38> If you want to know which direction is the tape then it should be a directed graph
00:16:28 <zzo38> I have looked at BANCStar. It is certainly *not* the worst thing ever invented, although there are many bad design stuff in it, it seem like. But many things are not known about it so this wouldn't even be known perfectly; but at least I can try to figure out what some things are expect to be, by looking at the few information available (including the printout of part of one program)
00:18:06 <hppavilion[1]> You do realize people were ACTUALLY REQUIRED TO USE IT, right?
00:18:20 <zzo38> Yes, I do realize.
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00:22:33 <zzo38> I have studied it, and it most certainly is not. It looks like more easily to program in than most other kind of machine codes, when use for the domain-specific use. But this would require that you program it by yourself rather than in a team, where such thing would seem unsuitable. Also some of the details described before the printouts were released was wrong or partially wrong as far as I can tell.
00:22:57 <zzo38> Still it has many limitations
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00:26:50 <zzo38> Many of the things I have figured out differ from what is in the esolang wiki article of BANCStar; I mentioned my findings in the talk page.
00:34:16 <zzo38> For example, command 3100 is not mentioned in the article, and it doesn't say what "Future Date 360" mean, although I have some ideas of how various things work, based on how they are used in the available programs.
00:35:28 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think I gave an answer to your "infinite FSM" question.
00:36:03 <tswett> "Infinite finite state machine" is a contradiction; it'd just be an "infinite state machine". A Turing machine could be said to be a type of "infinite state machine".
00:37:57 <zzo38> Command 8000 uses PC colour codes and not ANSI colour codes. If bit7 is set then the text blinks; if bit3 is set then the foreground uses bright colours.
00:42:45 <Jafet> Not-necessarily-finite state machines
00:46:30 <zzo38> I have updated my QUACKVM now all 32 instruction opcodes are defined (the three new ones are: LONGCALC, INTBL, EXTOP), and the Minesweeper game is updated to use LONGCALC for calculating average scores.
00:48:24 <zzo38> I win at what? Minesweeper game? I did win once
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00:51:58 <izabera> ever played non-flagging minesweeper?
00:52:23 <izabera> it's regular minesweeper but you must never mark bombs
00:52:41 <izabera> the goal of the game is still unchanged, open all the non bomb squares
00:52:56 <izabera> but you have to keep track of the bombs in your mind
00:53:21 <zzo38> I have not played it but it should be easy enough to modify the Minesweeper game I wrote to do that if you want that
00:53:34 <zzo38> (You are free to make other modifications too; it is all public domain)
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00:54:27 <izabera> oh it doesn't need any modification
00:55:02 <zzo38> Yes, it doesn't need any modification, although if you want to prevent it from allowing you to mark bomb then you can do that.
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01:00:44 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/quackvm.zip
01:00:51 <zzo38> Note the documentation is incomplete, sorry
01:02:33 <zzo38> To use the assembler, put the input filename on command-line and redirect stdout to the file used for output. To use the runtime, put the ROM filename followed optionally by the disk filename. The current version may require xterm
01:05:37 <zzo38> Also, to compile the C source-codes you can use "bash" on them.
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01:08:51 <hppavilion[1]> What should I call my function-oriented 2D language?
01:09:50 <zzo38> (A lot of things I don't know!!)
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01:19:27 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: now, when you say "functional", do you mean that functions act as ordinary values?
01:20:51 <tswett> I'll tell you what you should name it.
01:21:38 <tswett> All right. You should name it:
01:22:06 <tswett> Or "fued / cntn / tnoe / iori" in contexts where line breaks aren't possible.
01:22:50 <tswett> It's the phrase "function oriented" arranged in a certain way in two dimensions.
01:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett you can't solve all of life's problems with hilbert curves
01:33:37 <tswett> Nah, you gotta abbreviate it using the diagonal. FNOI.
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01:37:48 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe I should call it Fnord so no one else can name theirs fnord xD
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01:55:29 <MDude> It should have assignment that goes something like "the <variable name> is behind <value>"
01:56:10 <izabera> fwiw this is the random crap generator http://arin.ga/iZe8Kf/raw
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01:57:24 <izabera> it produces 4gb in less than 19s on my system
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02:06:05 <zzo38> "Bad at Magic Devices" flaw: You get -4 to Use Magic Device checks and -2 to all other skill checks related to magic items. Any magic item you are in contact with, except scrolls, have a 5% chance each round to not function (only roll to check if you are trying to activate it or it provides a bonus that is relevant to the situation). Cannot be selected unless you have at least 1 rank of Use Magic Device.
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02:08:36 <zzo38> I don't know if it is sufficiently severe or if it is too much severe or too complicated or too simple.
02:16:51 <zzo38> Another idea for magic items is that some special abilities of shields and weapons and so on can be suppressed on a commands; a minor curse can be to disallow suppressing them in this way.
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02:34:14 <zzo38> Such effects can include: arrow catching (shield), etherealness (armor), defending (weapon; fixes the AC bonus to max), flaming (weapon), frost (weapon), ghost touch (weapon; always considered incorporeal touch), merciful (weapon), x-ray (ring), cube of frost resistance (wondrous).
02:50:04 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: (I know you are not on) You can't prevent others from naming theirs the same thing; we already have to esolangs called "Clue" in esolang wiki
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03:10:32 <hppavilion[1]> Very Strongly Typed Language: Variables can't change value
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03:32:19 <hppavilion[1]> It's funny that Turing himself was a Turing Machine (sans unbounded memory, of course)
03:39:15 <zzo38> OK, try to make one up if you know how
03:39:31 <MDude> There's a language called Fourier, but it's not actually about approximating functions via Fourier series.
03:42:44 <MDude> I think that would be a nice abstraction in that it would allow one to define a function imprecisely.
03:43:44 <MDude> And allow such a foolish thing as lossy compression of code.
03:44:11 <zzo38> OK then make up that one! I like that kind of idea too
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03:52:21 <MDude> I'm pretty sure I'll want functions to be able to have at least two inputs, so I hope the principle behind Fouriers series applies to cymatic patterns.
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04:22:53 <oren> Tell me, Visual Studio, how is "UInteger" simpler than "Uint32"?
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06:59:27 <fizzie> http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/sep/02/london-clinic-accidentally-reveals-hiv-status-of-780-patients "We recalled/deleted the email as soon as we realised what had happened." What does that even mean.
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07:00:43 <fizzie> Sending another email asking for the recipients to delete the previous one?
07:01:40 <shachaf> fizzie: Haven't you ever seen an email being recalled/deleted from your inbox?
07:01:45 <shachaf> Clearly it works very well.
07:03:54 <mauris_> classy https://i.guim.co.uk/img/media/812f0b604f0d99457ec3cfcb96aa7163c564de01/0_7_840_504/master/840.jpg?w=1920&q=85&auto=format&sharp=10&s=228963e4a63e190b936e19b3fc0a413c
07:04:43 <mauris_> we would like to recall our email with 780 recipients' contact info in it by sending another email with 780 recipients' contact info in it
07:07:36 <fizzie> It also asks everyone to notify them by replying; wonder how many reply-alled, adding more messages like that.
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09:39:26 <Taneb> I had a weird dream, Phantom_Hoover was there
09:39:35 <Taneb> Even though I have no idea what Phantom_Hoover looks like
09:40:49 <Taneb> And we were at a generic campus university
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09:41:25 <Taneb> More grassy and hilly than York's west campus and more cluttered and busy than the east campus
09:41:41 <Taneb> Simon Lane of Yogscast fame was there
09:41:49 <Taneb> As was the robot bunny from Homestuck
09:42:14 <Taneb> There was a zombie apocalypse going on or something
09:42:24 <fizzie> Taneb: Was there a floating "Phantom_Hoover" label above them? It might have been a virtual reality scenario rather than a dream.
09:42:47 <Taneb> fizzie, no, I just knew he was Phantom_Hoover
09:42:57 <fizzie> Perhaps that's how it goes in the real world too, then.
09:43:02 <Taneb> I then had another dream where I explained this first dream
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09:43:15 <Taneb> And some other things happened
09:43:18 <Taneb> And then a third dream
09:43:24 <Taneb> Which I have completely forgotten
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09:45:28 <fizzie> I was at the Trinity College Dublin campus a while ago, just being a tourist. They have more pillars than Aalto University.
09:45:48 <fizzie> And a much fancier-looking library, too.
09:46:11 <Taneb> York doesn't have much in the way of pillars
09:46:15 <Taneb> Well, it has a few
09:46:29 <fizzie> http://irish-net.de/files/trinity_college_bibliothek_1.jpg <- it's like this except full of tourists
09:46:33 <Taneb> But a lot of those were built in the past few years in a modern style
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09:46:38 <fizzie> Actually, I might have a realistic photo of it.
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09:49:02 <fizzie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZAUGlFYWtZcGxjTWs/view?usp=sharing <- that's what it looks like if you're a pleb.
09:49:15 <fizzie> (And can't get to the balcony or order everyone else out.)
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09:53:24 <Taneb> fizzie, that is a nice photo
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09:58:22 <fizzie> It's a nice place. Although I think the business of having a decreasing shelf height as you go upwards, and meticulously finding just the right-sized books to stuff every shelf, was a bit overdone.
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09:59:50 <fizzie> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4J9OAzXNfZARG92UzdRaURHcFk/view?usp=sharing <- as seen here, although there was another bookshelf that was more extreme about it.
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12:05:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44029&oldid=43994 * 72.74.32.143 * (+209) /* Language Details */
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13:17:14 <HackEgo> U+1F42B BACTRIAN CAMEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 ab UTF-16BE: d83ddc2b Decimal: 🐫 \ 🐫 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F42A DROMEDARY CAMEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 aa UTF-16BE: d83ddc2a Decimal: 🐪 \ 🐪 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
13:20:03 <HackEgo> U+1F42A DROMEDARY CAMEL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 aa UTF-16BE: d83ddc2a Decimal: 🐪 \ 🐪 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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13:36:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44030&oldid=44029 * SuperJedi224 * (+11) /* Comments */
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13:55:06 <ashl> i'll see your camels and raise you 🎑
13:55:13 <HackEgo> U+1F391 MOON VIEWING CEREMONY \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8e 91 UTF-16BE: d83cdf91 Decimal: 🎑 \ 🎑 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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14:14:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44031&oldid=44011 * Dennis * (+1)
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14:16:14 <mauris> hmm, i wonder: what's the lowest positive integer n for which the brainfuck program that moves to cell n to the tape and halts is shorter than n bytes?
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14:18:35 <mauris> (possibly modifying the tape, of course)
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14:22:18 <mauris> >-[>[>]+[<]>-]>[>] halts pointing at tape[257] (assuming it's left-bounded, 8-bit)
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14:29:28 <fizzie> I'm sure you could get lower than 257 just by replacing the initial - with some suitably small multiplication that's barely enough to get past the length of the program.
14:29:44 <fizzie> Also, is the first > needed in the "[>[>]" fragment? seems like "[[>]" would be equivalent.
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14:32:32 <fizzie> The Brainfuck constants page might help in that. Your [>[>]+[<]>-]>[>] footer adds about 16 bytes, so you want a lowest constant for value N, length L such that (approximately) N = L+16.
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14:34:36 <mauris> oh, you're right, i don't need that >
14:34:49 <fizzie> (Modulo some fiddling about where the constant value gets left and whether it leaves any cruft on the tape.)
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14:36:38 <fizzie> >-[-[-<]>>+<]>[[>]+[<]>-]>[>] seems to halt on cell 38, and looks shorter than that.
14:37:01 <fizzie> (Used, pretty randomly, the >-[-[-<]>>+<]> constant for 33.)
14:37:20 <fizzie> For the record, I'm not claiming this construction will answer your question, but it's one way to drag the upper bound down.
14:38:08 <mauris> yeah, i was thinking of multiplications, and that looks like a pretty good one
14:38:37 <fizzie> >+[--[<]>>+<-]>[[>]+[<]>-]>[>] halts on cell 33 and is 30 bytes long.
14:38:54 <fizzie> I think that cell 33 is 0-indexed, so let's say 34 instead.
14:41:13 <myname> why isn't [>] an endless loop there?
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14:42:07 <mauris> myname: it seeks the first zero cell, going right
14:42:32 <myname> yeah, i reversed it in my head
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14:44:59 <myname> fizzie: the part about the 34 sounds wrong. the empty program is zero bytes long and moves to 1 and i won?
14:47:57 <mauris> fizzie: >----[[>]+[<]>---------]>[>] is 28 bytes and halts on 30
14:48:19 <mauris> myname: i'm counting from zero. so >>> moves to position 3
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14:55:19 <mauris> fizzie: i found a really elegant one :)
14:56:04 <mauris> +[[->>++<<]>>] is 14 bytes and moves to position 16
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14:56:32 <mauris> by doubling a cell and moving it 8 times, until it hits 256(=0).
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14:59:43 <mauris> this is cool, because i *think* you can just brute-force check all brainfuck programs that are 13 bytes or shorter and satisfy some "obvious" constraints a solution would need
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15:02:09 <mauris> > sum [6^n + (n+1)*(n+2)`div`2 | n <- [1..11]] `div` 2 -- a generous upper bound on the amount of those?
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15:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Monkeys]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44032 * Martin Büttner * (+537) Created page with "After some testing, the reference implementation seems to contradict the spec in several ways: 1) the initial setup appears to be transposed and 2) Monkeys are incremented eve..."
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15:32:48 <tswett> In homotopy type theory, there's a type S such that there are infinitely many functions S -> S, but only two of them are invertible.
15:33:34 <tswett> Countably infinitely many functions S -> S, in fact.
15:34:04 <mroman> I should continue working on Gulf.
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15:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Knowledge * New user account
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15:51:58 <ashl> why is there such a type :P
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16:26:55 <tswett> Well, the space is generated by one point and one automorphism of that point.
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16:29:06 <tswett> So a function S -> S must map the point in S to a point in S (there's only one option), and the generating automorphism to an automorphism of that point (there are countably many options--they're the integers).
16:31:54 <HackEgo> [U+2124 DOUBLE-STRUCK CAPITAL Z]
16:32:27 <ashl> why isn't there only one automorphism of a one-point space
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16:37:33 <ashl> perhaps it's not worth me asking this since i know nothing about homotopy type theory...
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16:54:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44033&oldid=43956 * Timwi * (+3) /* Overview */
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17:04:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44034&oldid=44033 * Timwi * (+0) /* I/O */
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17:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> Are SKI combinators evaluated from the left or from the right?
17:14:18 <tswett> They're written with application being left-associative.
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17:47:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44035&oldid=44031 * YourDeathIsComing * (+14826)
17:48:20 <Taneb> tswett, is that like saying there are countably many naturals (including zero) but only one you can negate?
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17:57:45 <tswett> Well, it's very much like saying there are countably many integers but only two that have reciprocals.
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18:36:45 <fizzie> You had people for lunch!?
18:39:44 <tswett> So I'm thinking about my Amazing Final Computer Language.
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18:40:58 <tswett> Currently, it has two features.
18:41:29 <tswett> You can declare "varieties", and you can declare expressions in varieties.
18:41:51 <b_jonas> tswett: is it final in the sense that it's a high level language that won't turn out to have been a low level language afterall in twenty years when new higher level languages appear?
18:42:01 <tswett> What I'm calling a variety is a variation on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_%28universal_algebra%29
18:42:15 <tswett> b_jonas: well, it's final in the sense that it will effectively have every possible feature.
18:43:02 <hppavilion[1]> I want to design a language based entirely on constructing abstract machines
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18:43:26 <tswett> Now, many but not all kinds of algebraic structure are varieties in my sense.
18:43:41 <tswett> Groups are a variety, rings are a variety, categories are a variety.
18:43:59 <tswett> Cartesian closed categories are a variety. Finitely complete categories are a variety. Finitely cocomplete categories are a variety.
18:44:11 <tswett> Cartesian closed finitely complete finitely cocomplete categories are a variety.
18:44:50 <tswett> Toposes are *not* a variety.
18:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44036&oldid=35308 * Timwi * (-3388) /* Hello, World! */ shorter version
18:45:40 <tswett> You could also define a version of the SKI calculus as a variety.
18:47:21 <tswett> The definition would essentially be the following:
18:48:09 <tswett> "There are things called terms. S is a term. K is a term. I is a term. If x and y are terms, xy is a term. If x is a term, Ix = x. If x and y are terms, Kxy = x. If x, y and z are terms, Sxyz = xz(yz)."
18:49:11 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
18:49:50 <tswett> So, that's an example of a variety where equality is uncomputable.
18:57:34 <tswett> Now, you can use varieties to define data types. For example:
18:57:51 <tswett> "There are things called booleans. True is a boolean. False is a boolean."
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18:58:42 <tswett> Presumably you should be able to build data types on top of other data types, but I haven't figured out how that would work yet.
19:05:05 <tswett> This variety could represent a sum type:
19:05:39 <tswett> "There are things called left-values. There are things called right-values. There are things called sum-values. If x is a left-value, Left(x) is a sum-value. If y is a right-value, Right(y) is a sum-value."
19:08:37 <tswett> As for *how* it could represent a sum type...
19:10:01 <MDude> Not sure if I should go with discrete Fourier transform or discrete cosine transform for the language.
19:10:55 <tswett> You can fuse varieties together by taking two varieties and saying that one sort (or more!) from each variety must be the same underlying sort.
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19:11:34 <tswett> So if you have a variety meaning "a group" and a variety meaning "a monoid", you could stick them together and get a variety meaning "a group, a monoid, a third sort, and functions from the group and the monoid to the third sort".
19:11:39 <MDude> SInce discrete cosine transform is what jpeg uses.
19:11:43 <tswett> Which totally sounds summy.
19:12:17 <tswett> Well, Wikipedia says...
19:12:18 <tswett> "DCTs are equivalent to DFTs of roughly twice the length, operating on real data with even symmetry (since the Fourier transform of a real and even function is real and even), where in some variants the input and/or output data are shifted by half a sample."
19:12:20 <MDude> I could also make something where instead of describing waves at all, each function is a bitmap.
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19:12:48 <MDude> And you just send it an x and y coordinate, with the return being the luminosity at that point.
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19:14:44 <MDude> But I think that goes against the idea of making it easy to have programs that tend towards using smooth functions.
19:15:10 <tswett> Nb: I have no idea what you're doing.
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19:28:03 <fizzie> Keep it real, go with DCTs.
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19:37:41 <MDude> So each function would be described a seris f waves, or wave pairs for two-input functions.
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19:39:22 <hppavilion[1]> An esoteric story about a superhero called Walrus Man written in dynamic hypertext
19:39:31 <MDude> Each wave set set just being the offset, frequency, and amplitude of each cosine wave.
19:45:22 <nortti> idea: program stack. a subroutine call is implemented by copying its code into the program stack
19:46:01 <MDude> I'll call it Codesign, so people will mispronounce it as "Co Design" instead of "Co(de)sine".
19:46:17 <nortti> so, like, you have A() { B(); C(); }, and the main prog is like A(); D(); → B(); C(); D();
19:46:49 <MDude> Oh wait, it'd be spelled Codesine.
19:47:08 <nortti> s/main prog/code stack/
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19:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of linear progression, a many-dimensional graph
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20:42:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44037 * MDude * (+716) Created page with "Made because Fourier has nothing to do with Fourier transforms, but uses discrete cosign transfomrs to "keep things real". The primary idea of codesign is to have functions ..."
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20:42:44 <MDude> I should mart it as a stub.
20:44:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44038&oldid=44037 * MDude * (+13)
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20:46:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MDude]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44039&oldid=23980 * MDude * (+72)
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20:48:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44040&oldid=44038 * MDude * (+23)
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20:50:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44041&oldid=44040 * MDude * (+11)
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20:59:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44042&oldid=44041 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
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21:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44043&oldid=44042 * MDude * (+258)
21:20:28 <MDude> I'm thinking I should maybe just ditch the previous function definition syntax in favor of this.
21:22:01 <MDude> Yeah I do that. Plus I need to include how variables work?
21:22:59 <MDude> Now that I think about if, mayube I should have a way to let variables represent something other than coordinates, like passing in the amplitude or frequency values as variables.
21:23:11 <ais523> I have revived The Underlambda Project (now in titlecase!)
21:23:32 <ais523> so far I have most of three specs, and a brainfuck compiler I have no way of running, nor any way of running the output
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21:24:02 <ais523> @tell mauris 1, and oops
21:24:34 <ais523> I seem to have got really back into esolanging recently
21:24:41 <ais523> and now I'm working on Underlambda again
21:25:18 <ais523> I don't think anyone else is working on Underlambda yet
21:25:30 <oerjan> i'm more than a month late at browsing Recent Changes
21:25:51 <ais523> that person with the nick that's "esowiki" and a bunch of hex is testing boundaries, that's about it though
21:26:03 <ais523> in terms of things that need admin attention
21:26:24 <oerjan> i found a bit of copyvio by Phase in my slow catchup
21:26:59 <ais523> sorry, I haven't been as vigilant for copyvios as I should have been
21:42:09 <oerjan> @tell mauris <mauris> this is cool, because i *think* you can just brute-force check all brainfuck programs that are 13 bytes or shorter and satisfy some "obvious" constraints a solution would need <-- itym 14
21:44:10 <ais523> (if you tell me what day I can look for it in the logs)
21:44:38 <oerjan> smallest number such that there exists a shorter brainfuck program that moves to that cell number, then halts
21:45:07 <ais523> ah right, sort-of like a busy beaver
21:45:16 <oerjan> <mauris> +[[->>++<<]>>] is 14 bytes and moves to position 16
21:45:20 <ais523> that requires the use of a wrapping impl, though
21:45:53 <ais523> the brainfuck-to-underlambda-in-underlambda-parser-framework compiler I just wrote (untested because both the implementation and target language are unimplemented)
21:46:04 <ais523> uses cells that go down as far as -1 (and saturate there), and up to infinity
21:46:54 <ais523> ugh, yesterday's logs contain invalid UTF-8 in some lines and UTF-8 in others
21:47:06 <ais523> meaning my browser refuses to show them in anything but Latin-1
21:47:18 <ais523> (err, anything useful, I could set it to like latin-5 or something)
21:47:56 <b_jonas> ais523: what? won't the browser still show it in utf8 if you ask nicely, with the non-utf8 characters shown as replacement characters?
21:48:14 <ais523> b_jonas: no, it tries to download the page instead for some reason
21:48:27 <ais523> presumably because it detects it as "not a text file" due to being misencoded
21:49:42 <oerjan> not very good for irc logs
21:50:36 <ais523> actually, isn't being misencoded the /only/ reliable indicator that something isn't a text file?
21:51:07 <oerjan> clearly there is no reliable indicator hth
21:51:30 <oerjan> there is shell code after all
21:51:30 <ais523> huh, zemhil is working again?
21:51:44 <ais523> oerjan: I'd claim the ASCII version of that is a text-binary polyglot
21:52:45 <oerjan> !zjoust apparently +[>+]
21:52:45 <zemhill> oerjan.apparently: points -43.31, score 0.49, rank 47/47
21:53:17 <oerjan> i guess running off the hill does that
21:53:31 <zemhill> oerjan.apparently: points -31.05, score 3.57, rank 47/47 (--)
21:53:38 <zemhill> ais523.growth: points -46.00, score 0.00, rank 47/47 (-42)
21:53:50 <ais523> !zjoust growth2 http://sprunge.us/LTKQ
21:53:51 <zemhill> ais523.growth2: points 20.69, score 52.84, rank 1/47
21:53:58 <ais523> ooh, it's top of /both/ hills
21:54:06 <ais523> now if I could only remember how it worked :-P
21:54:40 <ais523> Lymia: the reign of nyuroki is over!
21:55:07 <ais523> oh good, I documented it already
21:55:30 <oerjan> fizzie: zemhill is too fast, it'll make HackEgo jealous
21:55:47 <oerjan> !bfjoust apparently []
21:55:55 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_apparently: 6.1
21:56:05 <ais523> oerjan: is that a pessimized version of nop.bfjoust?
21:56:45 <ais523> at least it automatically does at least as well as any other program that doesn't contain + or -
21:57:08 <ais523> !bfjoust slightly_better_nop (>)*9(+)*128
21:57:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_slightly_better_nop: 0.8
21:57:24 <ais523> haha, I know why that scores less than nop does
21:57:30 <ais523> !bfjoust slightly_better_nop (>)*9[(+)*128]
21:57:32 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_slightly_better_nop: 6.5
21:58:03 <ais523> growth2 has four losses
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21:58:25 <ais523> omnipotence, both cupnoodles (which are identical), and stealth2
21:58:52 <ais523> mroman: could you delete mroman_'s copy of cupnoodle from the !zjoust hill? you currently have two effectively identical programs up there
21:59:57 <Sgeo_> Who was it who like Evillious, oren or nortti, I keep forgetting? I think https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cOyp3qNqiTE&lc=z13wszjjroipfpvky23kyvrqtwetij2om04 dragonkeeper's reply to Yui the yandere makes a lot of sense (as a criticism of The Evillious Chronicles)
22:00:12 <ais523> also, if you want to see something unlike any other BF Joust strategies, see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/breakdown/#ais523.margins
22:00:19 <ais523> I've been slowly working on an improvement to margins but it's hard
22:00:37 <ais523> actually the score against space_hotel is my favourite
22:00:40 <ais523> one of the best programs of all time
22:00:44 <ais523> and it gets just marginally beaten
22:01:20 <nortti> Sgeo_: do you mean to link to a youtube comment there? I can't display them
22:01:34 <Sgeo_> nortti, yes. I'll paste it into a pastie
22:02:07 <fizzie> I should fix up those hill visualizations and make them run on the same system zemhill does, and automatically -- if not quite after every change, then at least every now and then if there have been changes.
22:02:13 <Sgeo_> http://pastie.org/private/eewazf5wi5lmh4faca
22:02:51 <Sgeo_> Also, did you see the new songs I linked a while ago which I mistakenly pinged oren for?
22:02:54 <fizzie> I think that would involve omg-optomizing them from the scipy/numpy/matplotlib to something a bit less memory-intensive.
22:03:13 <ais523> when did you last run them manually? I'd be a little interested in how the hill looks atm
22:03:26 <fizzie> Quite long ago. I'll kick them off now, but it'll take a while.
22:03:37 <ais523> also, perhaps we should make submissions go to both hills? I can't see much of a reason why you'd want to submit to one hill and not the otehr
22:04:15 <ais523> also, thutubot used to turn up when I was online and someone requested it
22:04:16 <oerjan> that may be hard given there's a web submission form
22:04:19 <ais523> nobody's requested it in a while
22:04:22 <ais523> oerjan: oh right, good point
22:04:37 <ais523> how does the web submission form do authentication?
22:04:55 <fizzie> It doesn't, everyone submitting there is under the nickname "web".
22:05:19 <ais523> right, that makes sense
22:05:43 <fizzie> Having a letter in "web" that's not legal might have made slightly more sense, in retrospect, to keep the namespaces distinct.
22:05:51 <fizzie> Not legal for IRC nicks, I mean.
22:06:26 <oerjan> Web is registered, but not used since 2013
22:06:49 <ais523> right, because people on IRC can delete web programs
22:06:59 <ais523> fizzie: btw your front page contradicts itself about whether web submissions are eligible for the scoreboard
22:07:35 <fizzie> Oh, the "won't get your name" was referring to the "web." prefix.
22:07:41 <Sgeo_> nortti, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIaAnbMaCG8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YL_YZsbE3Ro https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGrdGXDcoGU
22:07:44 <fizzie> I guess you can still get your name by putting it in the program name.
22:07:48 <fizzie> It's not terribly clear.
22:09:24 <Sgeo_> I think those are the three new songs
22:09:34 <Sgeo_> If there are other news songs, I didn't notice
22:09:41 <fizzie> Gah, my mouse situation is really annoying. The old one I have keeps dropping things in the middle of drag-and-dropping, and doubleclicking when single-clicking; the new one from Amazon (same model) that arrived to day instead scrolls by itself maybe one page up or down every third time you release the mouse wheel after using it. (It's one of those freewheel Logitech mice, and there's ...
22:09:47 <fizzie> ... something wrong with the balancing, causing it to rotate to some particular orientation when at rest.)
22:09:54 <nortti> I remember there being 3 new ones, too
22:10:58 <Sgeo_> There were also other new songs a while ago I also think I linked oren, like Drug of Gold
22:11:18 <Sgeo_> For all I know you both like Evillious so I should be pinging both of you
22:12:45 <fizzie> Why is ais523.growth2 not appearing when I git pull.
22:12:57 <fizzie> It's visible in the gitweb.
22:13:09 <fizzie> Maybe I changed the URL.
22:13:10 <ais523> fizzie: you're pulling from the wrong repo or the wrong branch
22:15:46 <fizzie> That's what I'd assume, but it certainly doesn't look that way.
22:17:14 <fizzie> "git log --oneline" in the (bare) repository the URL in .git/config:[remote "origin"] is supposedly pointing at is 21 commits ahead, "master" is the only branch there (and gitweb also says head of master is your growth2 change), but "git pull origin master" says "already up-to-date".
22:17:41 <fizzie> And the local repository is also on branch master, and doesn't seem to be in any sort of weird detached head thing.
22:18:35 <fizzie> "git log origin/master" (and git rev-parse origin/master) both say c9df5d1.
22:19:16 <fizzie> It's like it's just not fetching the remote refs, but that's just weird.
22:19:45 <ais523> the file isn't already there, I take it?
22:20:53 <fizzie> Nnno. And according to timestamps, it is updating e.g. the .git/refs/remotes/origin/master file, but it's not the same that's refs/heads/master in the remote repository directory.
22:21:07 <fizzie> Maybe it's actually not pointing at the directory I think it's pointing.
22:22:10 <fizzie> Missing "git update-server-info" + dumb HTTP server.
22:22:16 <fizzie> I thought I had gotten that done right.
22:22:31 <fizzie> Well, that's more like it.
22:23:32 <fizzie> "generating tournament-wide plots ... /usr/lib/python2.7/dist-packages/numpy/ma/core.py:790: RuntimeWarning: invalid value encountered in less_equal"
22:23:55 <fizzie> Didn't bother to print a stack trace for it.
22:24:11 <fizzie> Well, if some of the plots look really weird, I'll know what to blame.
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22:25:14 <ais523> hmm, at one point one of my plans for Underlambda, the way it compared them was to take two to the power of each of the integers, then for one of the integers, made a lookup table of subtractions from that integer
22:25:20 <ais523> then looked the other integer up in the table
22:25:36 <ais523> then I decided that that would probably be far too slow in a non-optimizing implementation
22:27:48 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/egostats/ should now be up to date for growth2.
22:29:48 <ais523> anthropomorphic animals, most likely
22:30:22 <ais523> fizzie: to be fair I'm mostly interested in margins
22:30:29 <ais523> it is, as usual, hilarious in statistics
22:30:47 <ais523> huh, I didn't realise omnipotence would like short tapes though
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22:31:34 <ais523> I like the way that the dendrogram has a cluster for "good" programs, that's pretty much inevitable given how it's created
22:33:26 <ais523> also, I like the way that anticipation2 shows up clearly as a vibration program, because its "average value of opposing flag at end of game" value is so high (almost 90)
22:34:05 <fizzie> I keep thinking I should do something more clever about the clustering. I'd play around with our internal machine learning stuff, but somehow I don't think I'd be able to get *that* running on the zemhill VPS.
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22:34:39 <ais523> hmm, if I were mentally clustering programs, I'd cluster them by strategy
22:34:51 <ais523> what they do in each phase of the game (decoy phase / rush phase / lock phase), for example
22:35:25 <ais523> I wonder how you identify the phases, too
22:35:46 <ais523> (misidentifying them is a common reason for programs to lose, incidentally; but if you have perfect knowledge of the tape it's much easier)
22:36:07 <fizzie> Sadly, they don't exactly unambiguously output their strategy in a machine-readable form. But people do impressive semantic stuff for languages and images and all that. I'm sure deep neural nets is the answer.
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22:36:52 <ais523> I think a program that deduced the strategy of jousters from watching them play might be fun to think about/write
22:38:07 <ais523> oh wow, so /this/ is why growth2 is doing so well: http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_p14_ptapeheat.png
22:38:24 <ais523> it has a much higher chance than I expected of successfully figuring out where the enemy flag is first try
22:39:53 <ais523> this also implies to me that growth2 can be reliably beaten via purposely screwing up your clear to start at the wrong place
22:40:02 <ais523> although that'd make your win rate worse against programs generally
23:00:39 <nortti> Sgeo_: do you know where it says it was eve who did the toragay poisoning and eluka is not actually eluka?
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23:05:21 <nortti> 01:10 < Sgeo_> There were also other new songs a while ago I also think I linked oren, like Drug of Gold ← you linked that to me
23:06:31 <shachaf> ais523: Any news on your thesis?
23:06:46 <ais523> shachaf: it's "online" but not public until December for some reason :-(
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23:06:58 <ais523> I think there's some official date where I officially get a PhD and before then they're not allowed to officially acknowledge it
23:07:07 <shachaf> Can I bribe someone to get an early copy?
23:07:38 <ais523> come to think of it they're probably holding back the physical copies for the same reason
23:07:56 <ais523> I spent over 4 years with it, so I don't really mind waiting a bit longer
23:08:39 <shachaf> What will you be doing after you get a PhD?
23:08:48 <shachaf> Do you write more theses or what? I don't know how these things work.
23:09:04 <ais523> currently I have a job working on a research compiler (related to my PhD work)
23:09:11 <ais523> in fact I've already cited my own PhD in code comments
23:09:23 <ais523> an old version of the compiler's online
23:09:29 <ais523> http://www.veritygos.org/
23:09:52 <ais523> I didn't write it singlehandly but it's over 90% my code, I think
23:10:45 <shachaf> You worked with Satnam Singh on this thing?
23:10:56 <ais523> shachaf: yes, mostly to do with recursion
23:11:11 <ais523> the situation was that we wanted to claim to be the first to do something, and that's a pretty bold claim
23:11:20 <ais523> Satnam was one of the few people in the best position to know whether it had been done earlier
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23:17:18 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, finding previous research can be difficult
23:18:03 <b_jonas> there's a theorem I proved, then found out that there were three earlier proofs given in the seventies.
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23:52:00 <Sgeo_> nortti, http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Elluka_Chirclatia#Legacy seems like not one of the songs (for the Elluka isn't Elluka one)
23:52:29 <nortti> ah, ok. I did read the wiki, but it's not very good with referencing
23:53:04 <nortti> or, rather, with notes like "this was revealed in X"
23:53:06 <Sgeo_> http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Margarita_Blankenheim says the Eve thing but having trouble finding reference
23:53:54 <Sgeo_> I think the end of the world occurred in one of the books (Seven Crimes and Punishments), that saddens me because I was hoping for a song of it.
23:54:22 <nortti> any idea if it's been translated yet
23:54:31 <Sgeo_> It always feels like mothy was building up to some big reveal song regarding the end of the world, and now it's happened?
23:54:35 <Sgeo_> nortti, don't know
23:54:40 <Sgeo_> I haven't read it, do want to
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00:16:39 <Lyka> ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
00:17:11 <Sgeo_> !bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
00:17:13 <ais523> Sgeo_: !bf doesn't logread
00:17:24 <Sgeo_> ais523, I was testing if that was the correct command
00:17:31 <ais523> also, it's the return of Schrödinger's Cat!
00:17:37 <ais523> there are a few that work
00:17:45 <ais523> I forget what settings !bf uses
00:17:55 <fizzie> I think 8-bit cells and [something].
00:18:04 <ais523> Lyka: the thing is we couldn't exactly check if you were alive or not, for fear it would kill you
00:19:02 <fizzie> All of !bf, !bf8, !bf16 and !bf32 call into the same script, which sets BW from the command name, defaulting to 8, and then calls egobfi$BW.
00:19:31 <ais523> !bf ++++[>++++++++<-]>+>-[<.>-]
00:19:32 <EgoBot> !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
00:19:44 <ais523> should be 256 exclamation marks there in an 8-bit wrapping impl
00:19:59 <ais523> (it'll measure the cell size in other impls too, but that'd be too many exclamation marks to fit onto one line)
00:20:06 <fizzie> And egobfi defaults to EOF-0, wrapping (actually, "wrappong", according to the README).
00:21:07 <ais523> fizzie: did I tell you I made a BF implementation which saturates at -1 going downwards, has bignums going upwards, and uses -1 for EOF?
00:21:19 * Lyka wishes she understood at least half of what you talk about here
00:21:24 <ais523> that doesn't run because it's written in an unimplemented language and compiles into another unimplemented language?
00:21:25 <fizzie> wrappong is a version of pong where, if your opponent misses, the ball wraps around, and the score isn't affected.
00:21:30 <fizzie> It's kind of like zen pong.
00:22:43 <fizzie> ais523: No, but it sounds like an interesting choice. I guess you can clear any cell with something like [--+]?
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00:23:11 <ais523> but [--+] is shorter, come to think of it
00:23:18 <fizzie> Possibly less efficient.
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00:23:45 <fizzie> The "two steps forward, one step back" method. Or maybe it's the other way around.
00:24:37 <ais523> Lyka: what did you expect that to do?
00:24:39 <fizzie> I think you want one initial + there.
00:24:52 <ais523> current tape element starts at 0, then the loop doesn't run because outputting it doesn't change the value
00:25:15 <ais523> fun fact: that BF program is the main reason that this channel is +C
00:25:29 <Lyka> i do not understand
00:25:35 <fizzie> And I think outputting a 0 might cut the output short on EgoBot.
00:25:36 <ais523> it could be that EgoBot can't output NUL
00:25:41 <EgoBot> ......... \ ..................... !"#$%&'()*+,-./0123456789:;<=>?@ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ[\]^_`abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz{|}~
00:25:50 <ais523> NUL is used as "end of string" by many languages
00:26:10 <shachaf> Which is a scow convention, by the way.
00:27:53 <fizzie> ^bf ,....>.<....!same here
00:28:11 <fizzie> If I recall correctly, that's the STRN fingerprint using 0 as a terminator.
00:28:23 <ais523> hmm, Wiktionary defines "scow" as "A large flat-bottomed boat, having broad, square ends.", plus a verb "To transport in a scow."
00:28:28 <ais523> neither of these meanings seem relevant
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00:28:53 <ais523> now I want to try thutubot but don't think it /has/ a BF interp
00:29:01 <shachaf> pikhq knows what it means.
00:29:47 <ais523> yep, just Underload and Haskell
00:30:51 <pikhq> It's true, I know what it means.
00:31:48 <shachaf> "the scow of X" is something like the worst specimen of X
00:32:59 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm curious whether the word "victory" has made its way into the lexicon.
00:33:16 <shachaf> Probably it wouldn't happen before the next sauzzle.
00:33:18 <pikhq> I've not heard it.
00:33:54 <shachaf> Although the next sauzzle is never very far away...
00:34:31 <pikhq> For now, I am deeply contemplating a nap.
00:35:23 <ais523> I was going to say "well 'victory' is actually a real word", but so is 'scow', I guess
00:39:24 <pikhq> Why am I insufficiently sleeped?
00:40:57 <shachaf> ais523: Would you say "sauzzle" is a real word?
00:41:19 <ais523> shachaf: it's not one I'm aware of
00:41:33 <shachaf> You might be more familiar with an alternate spelling and tense.
00:42:07 <shachaf> I hear "sozzled" is common in the UK.
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01:19:10 <ais523> shachaf: yes, that's common in the UK
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01:55:53 <coppro> ais523: at my school, your degree is not officially awarded until the ceremony
01:56:15 <coppro> you can get it awarded early only if you have an actual need, such as to get a visa
01:56:26 <coppro> (to get a US visa, the customs officials must see your actual diploma)
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01:59:11 <ais523> coppro: hmm, you need a PhD to visit the US nowadays?
02:02:48 <pikhq> ais523: No, but certain visas may require proof of your education.
02:02:49 <coppro> ais523: on a TN work visa, which requires a degree
02:03:12 <pikhq> If you just want to visit and you're from the UK, you just show up.
02:03:15 <coppro> they won't accept "this person is confirmed to get a degree on such-and-such date", they need the actual degree
02:03:25 <coppro> pikhq: don't you need to sign up for a visa waiver dealie in advance now?
02:03:32 <coppro> I thought only canadians could just show up now
02:04:02 <pikhq> coppro: WTF really?
02:04:03 <ais523> I know a Brit who visited the US recently
02:04:08 <pikhq> I hate US immigration even more now.
02:04:09 <ais523> and had to fill out a bunch of forms online in advance
02:04:15 <ais523> meanwhile, when I visited Canada
02:04:23 <ais523> I was allowed to just turn up, but I had to fill out forms while on the plane
02:04:29 <ais523> and was given a short interview by border control when I arrived
02:04:34 <shachaf> coppro: whoa whoa whoa, you're moving to the US?
02:05:26 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think coppro has implied that?
02:05:42 <coppro> Canada will be the same as of next March apparently
02:05:54 <shachaf> I guess "whoa whoa whoa" has multiple meanings.
02:06:24 <coppro> for Canada, it's an online thing that according to the government website is usually approved within minutes, and the total cost is $7
02:06:54 <ais523> the whole "paper-form-on-the-plane-plus-interview" thing must presumably be quite expensive
02:07:14 <coppro> I don't think it cuts out the paper form. Maybe it does?
02:07:38 <coppro> the US one costs $4 to apply and $10 to get approved
02:08:02 <ais523> shachaf: when visiting Canada, I had to fill out a form while physically on the plane
02:08:54 <shachaf> It's possible to avoid that by traveling to Canada first.
02:09:35 <coppro> that's something different
02:09:52 <coppro> the Canadian form he's talking about is the standard customs declaration card, just saying who you are and what you have with you
02:09:58 <coppro> it's common to most countries
02:10:03 <coppro> (in different forms, obviously)
02:10:15 <shachaf> I'm talking about ais523's known Brit.
02:10:18 <coppro> also can you avoid the ESTA by going via Canada? nothing I've seen indicates that you can do that
02:10:38 <shachaf> coppro: If you arrive by land from Canada.
02:10:38 <ais523> shachaf: it was on a website somewhere, I don't really know the details
02:10:44 <shachaf> Or so https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_System_for_Travel_Authorization says.
02:13:29 <shachaf> I traveled from the US to Canada and back by land once.
02:13:43 <shachaf> It was much easier in one direction.
02:14:44 <coppro> let me guess. the to Canada direction.
02:15:35 <pikhq> Well yeah, by leaving AMERICA you've proven you're a muslimterroristantichrist
02:16:15 <coppro> ahhh ok so the ESTA replaces the I-94W form
02:16:35 <coppro> which visa waiver people used to have to fill out after landing
02:17:07 <coppro> I don't know if Canada had a similar form
02:17:19 <shachaf> coppro: But not in advance.
02:18:42 <coppro> now you need to do it in advance of leaving
02:26:30 <ais523> one thing that amused me was that at the airport where I landed in canada
02:26:40 <ais523> there were two sections, one for flights to the US, one for flights to the rest of the world
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02:26:48 <ais523> and the US part seemed to have much tighter security
02:29:02 <coppro> ais523: The US part has customs preclearance
02:29:16 <coppro> there are US customs officers there, and once you are through that you go through security and into a contained area
02:29:26 <ais523> ah right, so the idea is that you don't have to go through customs again in the US?
02:29:34 <ais523> this reminds me of the setup in the Channel Tunnel
02:29:41 <ais523> there are French border guards on the UK side and vice versa
02:29:51 <coppro> it's very convenient for a number of reasons. One of the big ones is getting to fly to smaller US airports
02:30:27 <coppro> since they can do customs clearance on the departure side, they don't need border officials at the other end
02:30:29 <ais523> (apparently we pushed for that several years ago to reduce the number of illegal migrants who managed to get onto a Eurotunnel train via the usual channels and then claimed asylum while on UK soil but before getting through customs)
02:30:41 <ais523> (because nowadays our border officers can say no while the migrant is still physically in France)
02:31:09 <shachaf> coppro: Once we drove to Canada and then flew outside the continent, but going through a US airport.
02:31:27 <shachaf> coppro: So we had to go through US customs, but in Canada, as part of leaving the US.
02:32:03 <coppro> ais523: the segregation also allows them to put weaker security checks on the non-US-bound flights because the US insists on "stronger" security
02:32:43 <ais523> coppro: the US insistence is relative? i.e. "travel to the US must be held to more stringent standards than your usual"?
02:32:59 <coppro> shachaf: no. It's still Canadian security agents.
02:33:06 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, that would be a great system.
02:33:09 <coppro> ais523: The US doesn't give a rat's ass about non-US flights.
02:33:29 <shachaf> "please spend 2/3 of the average resources on screening Canada-bound flights"
02:33:30 <ais523> coppro: unless they go near US airspace
02:33:32 <coppro> but I don't think it's relative, I think it's just that they want things like for a while they wanted shoes scanned, and the like
02:33:50 <ais523> I remember they were asking for US-level security checks on flights to/from Canada that went sufficiently close to US airspace
02:33:57 <shachaf> I no longer need to have my shoes scanned in US flights.
02:33:59 <ais523> presumably on the basis that the plane might be diverted, or something
02:34:15 <coppro> I know that they require copies of the passenger manifest for all flights that go over the US
02:34:38 <coppro> there was a kerfuffle because the Canadian government had to pass legislation to allow it
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03:36:22 <oren> We have all the green stars now
03:39:40 <coppro> I wasn't aware we were missing any
03:39:44 <coppro> now we can do the perfect run
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05:22:38 <zzo38> Now I made up a "Bad at Magic Items" flaw for Dungeons&Dragons game, although the name isn't very good probably I should change it. It is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/flaw/bad_at_magic_items
05:23:18 <zzo38> If you know how to play this game you can tell me if there is something wrong with it please.
05:24:30 <ais523> "skills" should be "skill checks", other than that it seems to work rules-wise, but it would be a really big drawback
05:24:37 <ais523> so most players would choose not to take it
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05:25:51 <zzo38> But I don't want to make it too minor either
05:27:44 <ais523> you're erring on the right side there, most flaws are apparently really broken
05:30:46 <zzo38> If you think it is too severe how to changed to make not too minor either though?
05:35:20 <ais523> hmm, the save penalty is probably the biggest effect there
05:35:24 <ais523> if you remove it it's probably too minor
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05:58:38 <zzo38> The name isn't very good either I think
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06:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of interesting features are there in CLIs?
06:21:59 <zzo38> I think it depend what kind of CLI?
06:26:42 <zzo38> Let's see if I can think of it
06:27:32 <zzo38> You can try, if you have some idea how to design it.
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06:33:06 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Think of any rare-but-useful shell features yet?
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10:03:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ShortScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44044 * YourDeathIsComing * (+76) Created page with "If you have any suggestions for this language please feel free to post them."
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10:36:23 <Ox0dea> Is single-line Befunge-98 Turing-complete?
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10:49:20 <ais523> Ox0dea: almost certainly yes
10:49:31 <ais523> people have written "effectively Unefunge" Befunge in the past
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10:49:52 <ais523> and, well, Unefunge itself is considered TC I think and that's basically identical to one-line Befunge-98 except that y coordinates don't exist
10:50:08 <ais523> (e.g. the g/p commands can't be used to read/write off your line)
10:53:13 <Ox0dea> ais523: Hm, information on Unefunge appears to be quite scarce.
10:53:31 <ais523> Ox0dea: it's mentioned in the official docs for Befunge-98, but it's basically just a one-line mention
10:53:42 <ais523> that if you remove the y coordinate, newlines, and all commands that require two dimensions to exist
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10:54:24 <Ox0dea> Sure, but that it remains TC after being gutted so isn't immediately obvious.
10:54:57 <ais523> the only really hard part is loops, and you can use a flying IP for that
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11:17:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ziim]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44045&oldid=38420 * Timwi * (+28) Fix important mistake
11:17:48 <Ox0dea> The mistake itself was important?
11:18:24 <Ox0dea> The changelog message there?
11:18:27 <ais523> ugh, now I'm trying to translate 0x0dea into decimal in my head
11:18:52 <ais523> that rather ruins it, but fair enough
11:19:08 <oerjan> that was the point hth
11:19:11 <ais523> (strangely enough, I'm in the habit of using bash to translate hex into decimal)
11:20:00 <Ox0dea> Oh, never mind; `printf` is a thing.
11:20:53 <ais523> no printf required for hex→decimal (only to convert the other way round)
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12:17:48 <mroman> http://codepad.org/44Cqut5S <- suggestions.
12:17:58 <mroman> I'm trying to come up with an open source license that has privacy restrictions.
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12:20:25 <ais523> mroman: that can't be open source by definition (no restriction on fields of endeavour), although you can make it "like" open source
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12:50:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44046&oldid=43731 * Paul2520 * (+168)
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13:02:16 <oerjan> yep, Agatha definitely has to go to that family party...
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14:53:01 <int-e> oh right, that TTS update schedule...
14:58:13 <oerjan> oh tuesday-thursday-saturday
14:58:44 <oerjan> int-e: yeah at this rate they should switch to that officially. except then they'll just slip another day.
15:01:38 <oerjan> beausoleil is a bit inscrutable, is he evil or _just_ arrogant
15:01:59 <oerjan> i suppose they make it ambiguous on purpose
15:03:19 <int-e> evil? opportunistic, perhaps, and used to being smarter than most people around him
15:04:28 <oerjan> well my question is whether he was behind any of the assassination attempts. although with the Family involved, he seems redundant.
15:05:05 <int-e> if he was, we'll probably find out
15:05:18 <oerjan> (does the family have any official name? they certainly don't all share a surname)
15:06:33 <oerjan> wait what, girl genius has a cast list?
15:08:53 <int-e> The Sturmvoraus family, I'd call them.
15:09:28 <int-e> And why is it that this is the first time I notice that this is german...
15:11:19 <int-e> let's see, shopping, laundry, lambdabot maintenance that I promised for last weekend... better get busy :)
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16:38:20 <ashl> `thanks things
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16:55:32 <fizzie> `` PERL_UNICODE=SDA thanks 谷風
16:56:22 <fizzie> `` sed -i -e 's/perl/perl -CSDA/' bin/thanks
16:56:52 <fizzie> Although the "algorithm" is still pretty latin-alphabet-only.
16:58:13 <fizzie> Spoilers: it's "if there's any character [aeiouy], replace anything before that by 'Th'; otherwise, replace the first character by 'T'."
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17:07:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44047&oldid=44046 * Rdebath * (+266) :-)
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17:12:25 <ashl> `` cat bin/thanks
17:12:26 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -CSDA \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
17:13:01 <ashl> perl: the mainstream esolang
17:13:57 <zzo38> Is it possible to program vim so that the delete key does not store deleted text in the register by default (but other commands to delete text in normal mode do store the text in the register)?
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17:15:27 <ashl> :noremap x "_x
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17:20:36 <zzo38> I would still want x and d to save the deleted text, and still want to allow delete key to be used with an explicit register, just to change the default if delete is used instead of d or x or some other command
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17:33:11 <zzo38> Trying :noremap <Del> "_<Del> does not seem to do anything?
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17:58:50 <oren> Using my Wii U, I can watch youtube on my CRT TV
17:59:44 <oren> isn't it comforting to have a raygun pointed at my face?
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18:28:04 <b_jonas> and a lot of homophones that come from initial consonant clusters that English people are lazy to pronounce: write–right–rite–wright, wrap–rap, wrest–rest, knight–night, knot–not.
18:29:14 <zzo38> O, OK yes I suppose I can see them too
18:29:23 <b_jonas> English is full of crazy homophones. there's verbs like sew–sow, raise–raze; mathematical functions sine–sign;
18:30:05 <zzo38> Yes, English is full if stupid stuff like that and others
18:30:42 <doesthiswork> some of those are due to the loss of velar fricatives
18:31:17 <b_jonas> doesthiswork: what? which one?
18:31:35 <doesthiswork> gh is how to voiced velar fricative used to be written
18:35:21 <doesthiswork> (the v is because I temporarily switched to an different keymap and forgot that control-v didn't mean paste)
18:35:27 <doesthiswork> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiced_velar_fricative
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18:55:28 <oren> what the hell is this? EFCDAB89 isn't representable as a UInt32???
18:59:03 <b_jonas> oh, look, the result of the ICFP contest is now announced!
19:00:33 <zzo38> I thought of a possibility that my "Bad at Magic Items" flaw, to change it so that in addition to attacks/saves/skills it also affects AC and SR, but only penalizes them in situations where magic is involved or to cancel out a magical bonus, and otherwise does not penalize them; and that if activating an item would do nothing anyways then you aren't stunned either. Does this seem to make it better?
19:01:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: um what? I don't understand that whole thing. what are you talking about?
19:01:11 <oren> first place: Team Eel?
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19:01:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: I mean this: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/flaw/bad_at_magic_items
19:01:41 <int-e> eels are known for their electrical engineering prowess
19:01:45 <zzo38> (I think the name is also not very good and should be improved.)
19:01:59 <int-e> perhaps I should write the first word as EEls.
19:02:11 <oren> int-e: good point
19:02:55 <oren> So a bunch of Japanese Eels, using a lot of languages at once, won the contest.
19:03:40 <oren> We officially declare that C++, Java, C#, PHP, Ruby and Haskell are the programming tools of choice for discriminating hackers!
19:04:37 <zzo38> b_jonas: Do you understand this?
19:04:38 <oren> Ruby is okay ish, but Haskell and C# are the only ones on that list that are functional
19:05:00 <oren> C# is functional specifically if you're using LINQ
19:05:16 <zzo38> oren: I agree PHP isn't very good, nevertheless I have written a few programs in PHP (as well as in various others)
19:05:52 <oren> I have written entire 1000 line web applications in PHP. I still don't like it
19:06:20 <oren> It is easy to use, but... just ugly
19:06:26 <zzo38> Yes, I have written standalone programs in PHP too, still not as good as C and JavaScript and so on
19:06:27 <int-e> Javascript is kind of nice, as long as you don't try to interact with the browser ;)
19:06:36 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, I agree
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19:12:38 <zzo38> I think yesterday it was ais523 who comment about my "Bad at Magic Items" flaw. But I want to know how to make improved, if anyone else has idea too. I believe the name should be changed too, if you know how to make the better name of it
19:15:40 <oren> Aggressivly Mundane?
19:16:08 <int-e> . o O ( Were were you the last 3 rounds? -- Oh, I accidently stumbled into my bag of holding, took me ages to find the way back. )
19:16:33 <zzo38> OK, yes that is one idea of the name, thank you
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19:19:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, I don't know, I don't really know much about DnD style magic items in first place, so I can't really tell what this flaw is like
19:20:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: does this mean you can still fire expensive +5 arrows from your non-magical bow without a penalty?
19:20:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: and what does SR mean in first place?
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19:20:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: SR means spell resistance
19:21:23 <zzo38> Also, it does not mean you can fire expensive +5 arrows from your non-magical bow without a penalty; you take a -1 penalty. Although I suppose as worded it doesn't but I need to fix that!
19:21:31 <zzo38> Thank you for noticing that!
19:23:03 <b_jonas> So is this a flaw that a character would have if they're a barbarian or druid who doesn't rely much on items, but does martial arts bare-handed or with an ordinary quarterstick, or leads other people or animals to a fight?
19:24:16 <zzo38> Or if you use mundane items much more than magical
19:24:16 <b_jonas> Or could a sorcerer or psion take this reasonably, if they don't want to use permanent magic items, but instead manage all the magic themselves or at most use scrolls and potions?
19:24:46 <b_jonas> Does reading scrolls come with a use magic device check?
19:25:11 <b_jonas> Or does the “activate any magic item other than a spell completion item” cover a scroll or a magic potion?
19:25:21 <zzo38> Reading scrolls sometimes requires a use magic device check; it does if you could not otherwise figure out the spell
19:25:36 <zzo38> A scroll is a spell completion item. A potion is not; it does cover potions.
19:26:18 <zzo38> If you scribed the scroll yourself you could always figure it out though.
19:26:31 <zzo38> Scribing scrolls yourself is expensive though!
19:26:54 <b_jonas> but you don't scribe the scroll, that would need you using a magic item, namely a magic marker
19:27:11 <b_jonas> sure, it's also expensive, it requires xp and feats and stuff
19:27:32 <zzo38> Yes, it does require those things.
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19:35:23 <zzo38> Now many possible changes have been figure out; do you think it can be good enough with all of these changes?
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19:48:34 <zzo38> OK, I made many changes now (including the filename)
19:54:25 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/TWY4LbE this
19:58:07 <zzo38> I have some idea that if you make PDF viewing program, to have default mode which mostly ignores the restrictions of operations, and also compliance mode which follow the restriction as specified in the file. Even in default mode though a lock icon is shown for operations that are marked as restricted, but they work anyways; for user-specified colors, the option now in addition to "When document does not specify" and "Always" is also "When document
20:00:28 <zzo38> Annotations and forms and so on would not be loaded by default if the document restricts these functions, but can still be used if the user explicitly selects them by menu or command-line.
20:01:50 <zzo38> Do you agree with these kind of thing?
20:02:09 <izabera> your message was cropped after 'in addition to "When document does not specify" and "Always" is also "When document'
20:02:35 <zzo38> for user-specified colors, the option now in addition to "When document does not specify" and "Always" is also "When document does not restrict"
20:03:27 <pikhq> zzo38: This sounds similar though not identical to the approach taken by mupdf.
20:03:52 <pikhq> mupdf intentionally omts several of those features because they're terrible. :)
20:05:12 <zzo38> I have seen information about another program which has an option to turn on/off whether these restrictions are applied, but I think my way would make it more useful, so that even if you want to print it anyways, you can still know if the author was trying to prevent you from printing it.
20:06:05 <pikhq> Oh, huh, mupdf did implement them. Optionally.
20:06:31 <pikhq> (note that mupdf is mostly a PDF *library* though; it ships with some utils, but they're pretty rough UI-wise)
20:06:59 <zzo38> Due to what is in the document it might require its own colors, that is why there should be three choice for such reason
20:09:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, and you should be able to switch the colors at run-time for just a document if you want
20:10:32 <b_jonas> just like how I normally set my browsers to use the fonts I choose only, but on oren's bitmap font demonstration page I temporarily want to allow his font
20:17:30 <fizzie> int dir = (i % 2 == 0 ? 1 : -1); for (int pol = dir > 0 ? 0 : 1; dir > 0 ? pol <= 1 : pol >= 0; pol += dir) ... in retrospect, coming back to this snippet after a year, I'm not quite sure this was the best way of expressing "iterate alternatingly 0,1 or 1,0".
20:18:12 <fizzie> Also I have absolutely no idea *why* it needs to do that.
20:20:54 <fizzie> ...oh, I start to vaguely remember. But that's horrible, and doubly so is not to put a comment here.
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20:31:40 <int-e> hmm, int pol = i % 2; for (int c = 0; c < 2; c++, pol ^= 1)...
20:32:15 <int-e> pol = i & 1 <-- would be more in line with the xor.
20:32:58 <fizzie> int-e: For the record, it was part of gearlanced.c, and it needs to alternate because executing a single match has the side effect of flipping the right program's polarity.
20:33:28 <myname> (dir, pol) = (1 - pol, 1 - dir)
20:34:16 <myname> haskell, with leading let also rust
20:34:27 <int-e> in haskell that will bottom out
20:35:04 <fizzie> Though by convention it would be written without the parentheses, I think.
20:35:25 <myname> iterate (\(x, y) -> (1-x, 1-y)) (1, 0)
20:35:34 <int-e> ml, but that also needs a let.
20:36:00 <int-e> cycle [(1,0),(0,1)]
20:36:25 <int-e> but the iterate could be more efficient if it fuses
20:37:56 <int-e> as far as I understand, the cycle *will* allocate a two-element cyclic list on the heap, at least with ghc; the compiler isn't smart enough to see the structur. with fusion, the iterate version can end up with x and y in registers, being negated in each iteration.
20:39:28 <fizzie> I just replaced it with int sieve = i % 2, kettle = !sieve; to get either 0,1 or 1,0; it used to be convoluted because it had to go in order as it was putchar'ing, but now it's writing to two separate arrays. (I'm making it a bit more easily extendable as preparation for being able to use the fancy don't-recompile hill stuff also for getting the visualization statistics. Trying to reach new ...
20:39:34 <fizzie> ... levels of premature optimization, here.)
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20:59:30 <int-e> (I'm not quite certain how to pronounce that)
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21:04:58 <zzo38> I cannot install a print server downstairs because a different router is used, but I had the other idea is the computer with the printer is the client instead, and then if it is turned on and enter the password it can download the PCL file from my computer and send it to the printer.
21:05:51 <zzo38> I wonder if it is possible to do this with FreeDOS so that it does not take too long to start up the computer.
21:07:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, how would FreeDOS help compared to a linux with most of the time-consuming stuff at boot disabled?
21:08:13 <b_jonas> I mean, in my experience, when I boot my PC, it takes 30 seconds to even get to the beginning of the boot loader, then between 30 and 40 seconds to boot up from that. But with a stripped down linux where you don't start much stuff, it would take only 10 seconds, so
21:08:16 <zzo38> I don't know much about how Linux is booting, but I know that FreeDOS boots very fast
21:08:30 <b_jonas> at that point it doesn't matter whether you make it 10 second or 5 second, because the 30 seconds before that is what takes most of the time.
21:08:39 <zzo38> Less than ten seconds even
21:08:42 <pikhq> Linux proper boots practically instantly; it's the distros that make it suck.
21:08:54 <b_jonas> Sure, I know DOS boots instantly, especially if you use that magical switch in the config.sys so it doesn't deliberately sleep for one second
21:09:06 <b_jonas> unless you're using a slow hard drive that is
21:09:36 <b_jonas> the magical switch is SWITCHES=/F by the way
21:09:56 <b_jonas> and it's a 2 second sleep, not one seconds
21:10:05 <b_jonas> that applies to MS-DOS, I don't know about FreeDOS
21:11:25 <zzo38> I have used FreeDOS so I have figured out how to speed it up.
21:14:02 <zzo38> On one computer I installed FreeDOS and a database program; the database program is ready before the CRT is ready if both are turned on at the same time.
21:15:14 <zzo38> This database program was designed to be used on a XT computer with floppy disks, but I had a much more modern computer and with a hard drive and FreeDOS, and past the year 2000, and yet it still works fine.
21:15:50 <zzo38> (The only problem I found is it would not let me to enter telephone numbers with a 778 area code, and I did not figure out how to fix that.)
21:17:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it running natively, or emulated under some other operating system?
21:17:12 <b_jonas> I no longer run DOS natively
21:17:20 <b_jonas> I run it emulated for games and similar
21:17:33 <zzo38> That computer ran DOS natively. I do not know if it is still in use since I do not work there anymore.
21:17:44 <b_jonas> I did run it natively for quite a long time though
21:18:50 <zzo38> Now I run Linux on my own computer so I use an emulator to run various DOS games such as ZZT and Jazz Rabbit and so on.
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21:41:30 <int-e> nice quote, "It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code." (found on haskell-cafe)
21:41:48 <int-e> (attributed to Bill Harlan)
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21:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> The maximum number for a 2 byte instruction name is FEFE (in hex), right?
21:57:17 <oren> that would be 65536 possibilities
21:59:15 <oren> Where can I find test data for SHA
21:59:26 <int-e> (that's 341664 in base 7, if my calculation is correct)
21:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just hope it's right and add the rest manually if not
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22:04:29 <hppavilion[1]> An instruction keeps consuming arguments until it meets an END instruction (which would be 0000, probably)
22:05:33 <myname> so, how do you multiply by 0?
22:06:44 * hppavilion[1] patents that idea and makes a million billion dollars (long system, of course)
22:18:51 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: lucky you :)
22:18:53 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i do this.
22:18:54 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i was fnord before. when do _you_ use assigment? does doing so make you feel like drawing something. requests/ ideas anyone?
22:19:52 <hppavilion[1]> As fungot trancends our primitive ideas of gender and actual existence
22:19:52 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: the worst one was in the ' artic circle'. you just get numbers. you can have a proof like that
22:20:27 <shachaf> Where are the quotes fungotten?
22:20:28 <myname> based on different styles
22:20:28 <fungot> shachaf: he appears to be completely missing.
22:21:40 <myname> well, naive idea would be goto
22:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> CALL a b c d would probably call a then b then c then d
22:27:14 <myname> well, it depends on your overall idea
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22:27:27 <myname> something like what,c does
22:27:58 <myname> i.e. having a call that returns different values depending on the thread you are in
22:29:39 <myname> you are talking about something existing?
22:30:25 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Every input has a value of itself-1 <-- then there will be a possible large argument value missing instead hth
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22:34:20 <hppavilion[1]> if argc == 1, zero reg args[0] to 0. Else, set reg args[0] to args[1], reg args[0]+1 to args[2], etc. for length of arguments.
22:38:41 <hppavilion[1]> It's bugging me 'cause it'll mess up printing of the chr(0xFF) character
22:40:51 <hppavilion[1]> Then to multiply by 0 you do <multins> <firstnum> FF 00 00
22:41:25 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just bouncing ideas off of people and need to alert them to respond xD
22:42:01 <oerjan> <int-e> . o O ( Were were you the last 3 rounds? -- Oh, I accidently stumbled into my bag of holding, took me ages to find the way back. ) <-- istr living things cannot survive in bags of holding
22:42:55 <oerjan> well C has similar problems printing \0's...
22:43:07 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, escape chars are /pretty/ complex for an ISA
22:45:19 <hppavilion[1]> So oerjan, what's a better idea: Escape chars or varlength args?
22:45:48 <oerjan> varlength seems less evil
23:01:01 <oerjan> not if you can fake one...
23:08:45 <hppavilion[1]> Should I provide builtin floating point operations?
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23:13:48 <shachaf> so much vertical space tdnh
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23:17:21 <oerjan> PROVIDE ALL THE THINGS
23:18:40 <oerjan> hm is ordinary sin/cos/tan elliptic or parabolic
23:18:51 <oerjan> and whichever it is, what's the third kind
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23:20:13 <hppavilion[1]> And despite my limited knowledge, based on some snazzy diagrams I've seen on wikipedia, I would think it's elliptic given the circle shown
23:20:28 <oerjan> STOP MISUNDERSTANDING ME
23:20:45 <oerjan> i may not be making sense, but that is NO excuse
23:21:03 <oerjan> hyperbolic was the first one, which you mentioned
23:25:13 <hppavilion[1]> I've got the registral, Arithmetical, Trigonometric, and Hyperbolic/Trigonometric
23:33:11 <oren> heyppavilion can you try to keep each sentenc on one line please twh?
23:34:40 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
23:35:04 <oerjan> of course not, with a swatter
23:35:07 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:35:43 <hppavilion[1]> I currently have 1E instructions (which I don't want to dehex)
23:37:58 <shachaf> please optimize your use of irc vertical space
23:38:17 <hppavilion[1]> https://github.com/hppavilion1/IndeterminantVM/blob/master/setdocs.txt
23:39:30 <hppavilion[1]> I probably should've put off the trigonometric functions until later
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23:42:05 <oerjan> it's like a comedy show at this point
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00:01:16 <shachaf> oerjan: is your email address still ntnu twh
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00:34:51 <oerjan> i guess i've never mentioned in this channel that i have a severe psychic hangup against receiving gifts...
00:36:50 <MDude> They get telekinetically flung away from you?
00:37:12 <shachaf> not sure i can undo it now
00:49:02 <oren> I just had a crazy idea
00:49:27 <oren> is it possibl to output a NTSC signal out of the headphone jack of my computeR?
00:49:44 <oerjan> shachaf: definitely not i've got it on my PC *MWAHAHAHA*
00:51:17 <pikhq> oren: Not unless you have an incredible sound card.
00:52:56 <oren> what ar the frequncies needed?
00:53:45 <oren> Well I assume it depends what channel
00:53:57 <oren> Suppose I ouptu on channel 1
00:54:30 <oerjan> shachaf: are you familiar with the one-electron universe theory twh
00:55:34 <shachaf> oerjan: only at the pop-sci level hth
00:56:14 <oerjan> anyway, very recyclish
00:56:59 <oren> hmm looks like 45-50 MHz
00:57:19 <shachaf> oerjan: are you referring to the contents of the pdf
00:57:28 <oren> audio really only goes to 20Khz
00:57:28 <shachaf> i read the paper version years ago
00:57:57 <oerjan> well you mentioned it a few days ago. or someone did.
01:04:06 <pikhq> oren: Like I said, it'd be a fucking amazing soundcard. :)
01:04:28 <pikhq> If it makes you feel better, *baseband* NTSC only goes up to 6MHz.
01:05:44 <shachaf> I thought it was someone in your new vicinity.
01:11:56 <pikhq> Maybe it is, but that doesn't mean I know 'em.
01:13:49 <oerjan> shachaf: um, also, thanks
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01:33:14 <oren> shachaf: bubbles is the blonde powerpuff girl
01:38:35 <oren> other than that, idk anyon called bubbles
01:39:12 <shachaf> Do you know anyone called JoJo?
01:47:31 <Ox0dea> Which language(s) does lambdabot interpret?
01:53:05 <oren> shachaf: I only know Mojo. Mojo Jojo
01:53:26 <shachaf> pikhq: i sense a pattern here hth
01:53:35 <pikhq> I do not know a JoJo.
01:54:01 <oren> a signed bool would only allow 0 and -1
01:54:07 <shachaf> It's what everyone is calling you.
01:54:53 <shachaf> <joey> Who is Josiah? <shachaf> pikhq@ <joey> Oh <joey> You mean JoJo
01:55:08 <oren> Why does LSD suck so much compared to CRT?
01:56:08 <shachaf> Something to do with serotonin receptors?
01:56:17 <oren> CRT is way brighter than a LCD monitor of the same size
01:56:49 <oren> this CRT lights up my whole room
01:59:11 <oren> while the LCD monitor of th same size doesn't glow enoungh to read by
02:01:50 <shachaf> oren: wait, i thought there were four powerpuff girls
02:01:56 <shachaf> oren: i must be thinking of teletubbies
02:04:22 <oren> No. the three PowerPuff Girls are Bubbles (Blonde Blue Eyes, Cute) Blossom (Red Hair Pink Eyes, Leader), and Buttercup (Black Hair, Green Eyes, Tomboy)
02:04:52 <hppavilion[1]> You know what'd be a good data type/data type keyword for an Esolang (that could actually be useful)?
02:06:21 <oren> You might be thinking of the 4 characters from Lucky Star, (Konata, Kagami, Tsukasa, Miyuki)
02:06:45 <shachaf> Lucky Star is a bus that goes from NYC to Boston, right?
02:07:57 <oren> Or the 4 girls from K-On (Yui, Mio, Ritsu and Tsumugi)
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02:08:58 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/12hFi-4RGME3To2Ki_zzkO1_R7RDvpsESW_Kp0XdsZH8/edit?usp=sharing
02:09:38 <oren> The 4 teletubbies are TinkyWinky, Dipsy, LaLa, and Po
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02:13:00 <copumpkin> pretty good, except for bad headache right now
02:13:38 <shachaf> I'm in Berkeley these days.
02:14:19 <shachaf> I went to the school for a few hours this past week and pretended to be a student, though.
02:15:56 <oren> What would that entail? reading and looking stressed? running around confused muttering about "which room is it in?"
02:16:17 <shachaf> I went to a room where a lecture was going on and sat down in a chair.
02:16:20 <oren> Eating nothing but Ramen and Doritos
02:16:28 <shachaf> Also, people keep trying to hand my flyers.
02:17:13 <oren> the easiest way to avoid that is to hand them a flyer
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02:17:48 <shachaf> Someone asked me if I was a new undergrad, and then if I was an old undergrad, and then if I was a grad, and then if I was a professor.
02:18:06 <shachaf> They were very determined to give me that flyer.
02:18:27 <oren> hand them a flyer about the dangers of
02:18:48 <oren> or somthing else you consider dangerous
02:19:00 <oren> Or maybe a flyer promoting Haskell
02:19:51 <oren> I used to print out flyers promoting Linux and hand them to flyer-people in self-defense
02:20:17 <zgrep> A flyer warning people about the dangers of handing out flyers?
02:20:26 <MDude> I am the anonymous pop tart cat?
02:20:50 <zgrep> If you meow upon being microwaved, then yes.
02:21:58 <MDude> Or maybe I'm not? I'm not sure how to tell what the google thing thinks I am.
02:25:32 <shachaf> copumpkin: You're not at ICFP!
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02:47:59 <MDude> Yeah, that's the thing I added. The signifigant figures one.
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02:48:17 <MDude> I'm wondering if surreal numbers is actually the thing I'm thinking of right now.
02:48:48 <Ox0dea> FRACTRAN for the surreals would be interesting.
02:49:51 <MDude> I'd like to make a number type like a signed integer integer, where all 1s is used to represent both positive and negative infinity.
02:50:15 <MDude> With the idea being that the number line would thus be treated as an infinite-radius circle.
02:50:34 <MDude> So a two-dimensional graph would actually be an infinite torus.
02:52:18 <MDude> And on such a trous, the graph of 1/x would converge on the same point of the inside ring from either direction when approaching zero.
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02:52:50 <MDude> I should rpobably make that javascript toy that I initially got me thinking about this.
02:53:25 <MDude> In that probably over a year ago someone asked about how to visialize division as something other than physically dividing an object.
03:03:37 <Sgeo_> I love the number circle!
03:05:44 <Sgeo_> I once concluded that 2/0 = 4/0 but not 3/0... until I realized that the same logic I used for 2/0 = 4/0 would lead to x/0 = y/0 for all x and y != 0. I think I cried because my stuff seemed useless (I was a bit of a crybaby as a kid)
03:06:14 <shachaf> I once concluded that 12/3 = 3
03:06:28 <shachaf> My grandmother said it was 4, but I didn't believe her.
03:07:16 <Sgeo_> I think I was in elementary school when I played with this stuff. I think in 1st grade or Kintergarten I insisted to my class that 4+4=9. In 4th grade we were going to learn multiplication, and I told some other kid that a*b != b*a (I saw something about multiplication being repeated addition somewhere)
03:08:01 <shachaf> Each grade had a color of maths booklet.
03:08:12 <shachaf> But the sixth grade booklet had a similar color to -- first grade?
03:08:36 <shachaf> So I looked through that booklet, and thought it was some advanced first-grade booklet that talked about exponentiation and all sorts of things we were never told about in first grade.
03:09:29 <Sgeo_> I'm pretty sure as a kid I tried to tell an adult that I was trying to get division by zero to work, and the response was "Isn't it just zero?"
03:09:41 <Sgeo_> So I had to explain why it generally doesn't work, before explaining what I was trying to do
03:11:55 <Sgeo_> I think that was actually after my "Just throw this all out they're all equal to eachother" breakdown
03:12:21 <Sgeo_> I don't actually remember how 0/0 fit into that
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03:13:07 <shachaf> Some downgraded version of !?
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03:18:54 <oren> . is input one byte hth
03:20:10 <oren> ehy doesnt' my SHA1 work!!!!?!?!?!1/1/!/1132r/13/r!
03:21:07 <shachaf> To do a length-extension thing.
03:22:03 <oren> http://arin.ga/nX1iFx
03:22:38 <Ox0dea> oren: Which esolang is that?
03:23:41 <Ox0dea> I was being facetious.
03:23:44 <oren> It's Visual Basic.NET
03:23:53 <Ox0dea> Are there any brainfuck implementations that read characters instead of bytes?
03:27:44 <oren> FUUUUUUUUU I'm a moron it's supposed to be the length in BITS not BYTEs AAAAAAAAAA
03:29:42 <oren> I read over that part like 5 times and didn't comprehend that it was the number of bits
03:34:10 <oren> Yah, now it passes the test case
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04:03:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Help, WarDoq!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44048&oldid=43891 * Dennis * (+156) /* Fail. */
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04:16:42 <Sgeo_> 2/0 * 2/2 = 4/0 * (1/4)/(1/4) = 1/0
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04:51:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44049 * Dennis * (+3149) Created page with "'''Bubblegum''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by Programming Puzzles & Code Golf user Dennis. It was designed for a single purpose: to chew bubblegum in Kol..."
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04:56:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44050&oldid=44049 * Dennis * (+6) /* Reference Implementation */
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05:00:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44051&oldid=44050 * Dennis * (+115)
05:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44052&oldid=44051 * Dennis * (+0) /* Reference Implementation */
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05:15:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44053&oldid=44052 * Dennis * (-18) /* Reference Implementation */
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06:07:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44054&oldid=44053 * Dennis * (+0)
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09:41:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ShortScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44055&oldid=44035 * YourDeathIsComing * (+2)
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10:00:58 <Taneb> Are the rationals the smallest field containing the naturals?
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11:23:36 <fizzie> I still think that should reply "dong".
11:24:08 <fizzie> Although admittedly it would make things like @zing ambiguous.
11:24:31 <fizzie> If defined as a separate command, I mean.
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12:38:17 <bender|> =cccp:bf ++++++++++++++++.
12:39:13 <bender|> =cccp:bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.
12:39:13 <boris_yeltsin> Fuck you, Gorbachev. I know it's you. The USSR is over. Get it? Over. No need trying to restore the glorious CCCP again. I'm the leader and I love vodka. EFF-YOU-CEE-KAY, WHY-O-U.
12:39:56 <bender|> =cccp:bf ++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.
12:40:36 <bender|> a few folks at another channel discovered an exploit by making the bot print a newline
12:41:35 <bender|> =cccp:be "!dlroW ,olleH">:#,_@
12:42:15 <boris_yeltsin> Drink some nice nice vodka! Just kidding, too much time has passed since execution began -- ~10 seconds. (Infinite loop?)
12:43:51 <myname> fungespace is defines as wrapping around
12:44:20 <bender|> so that's an infinite loop?
12:44:49 <myname> one that pushes empty strings on the stack
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13:25:48 <fizzie> Whoa, that was surprising. Started octave, expecting the usual command-line user interface, but it started a GTK lookalike of the MATLAB desktop experience.
13:26:06 <fizzie> I guess they've upgraded that GUI from experimental to on-by-default.
13:27:35 <fizzie> On the first glance it looked very nice, but when I asked for help for a command, it printed "-- less -- (f)orward, (b)ack, (q)uitundecodable token: \001b(hex)[3m undecodable token: \001b(hex)[23m" from the help pager.
13:27:49 <fizzie> I guess it doesn't like control codes.
13:29:45 <izabera> http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~christos/papers/Bounds%20For%20Sorting%20By%20Prefix%20Reversal.pdf <- bill gates
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14:00:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[English]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44056&oldid=38126 * 95.91.247.30 * (+92) link to ~English
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15:04:28 <oren> fizzie: really? but I fucking HATE matlab!
15:07:31 <oren> hate hate hate. It has a shit grammar that makes no sense, and indexes its matrices one based and the wrong way around!
15:09:48 <oren> scipy is way way better
15:13:14 <int-e> i'm not sure what oren means by "the wrong way around"
15:14:11 <int-e> well, 'A(2,4) % Extract the element in row 2, column 4' is exactly what I expect.
15:14:29 <oerjan> yep that's the math way
15:20:40 <oren> A(i,j,k) should be the ith element in the jth row in the kth plane
15:22:31 <oren> Instead it is the jth element in the ith column in the kth(!!!!) plane
15:22:40 <oren> It is inconsistent and stupid
15:22:55 <oren> er s/column/row
15:23:07 <oerjan> there's no kth plane for matrices...
15:23:25 <oren> http://www.mathworks.com/help/matlab/math/multidimensional-arrays.html
15:23:37 <oerjan> ok so it breaks beyond 2 indices
15:24:11 <oerjan> but row, then column is standard in all math notation
15:24:28 <oren> the point is, if they were consistent, A(i,j,k) would have i indexing the plane, then j the row, then k the element
15:25:14 <oerjan> i shall defer to the dieudonne quote i saw the other day...
15:26:15 <oerjan> “It is absolutely intolerable to use [the term] analytical geometry for linear algebra with coordinates, still called analytical geometry in the elementary books. Analytical geometry in this sense never existed. There are only people who do linear algebra badly, by taking coordinates and this they call analytical geometry. Out with them! Everyone knows that analytical geometry is the theory of analytical spaces, one of the deepest and most ...
15:26:21 <oerjan> ... difficult theories of all mathematics.”
15:26:28 <oerjan> (courtesy of the interminable john sidles)
15:27:26 <oerjan> also, "Don’t use coordinates unless someone holds a pickle to your head!" -- Joseph Landsberg
15:33:34 <oerjan> <Taneb> Are the rationals the smallest field containing the naturals? <-- also, unique
15:34:13 <oerjan> there's a unique smallest field of every allowed characteristic
15:34:48 <oerjan> where characteristic = smallest number of 1's you need to add to get 0, or 0 if there is no such number
15:34:57 <oerjan> naturals imply 0, naturally
15:35:43 <oerjan> (an allowed characteristic is 0 or a prime number)
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15:41:33 <nortti> ^ul (:::::)(~:S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~):^!
15:42:20 <fizzie> I haven't seen that much inconsistency about MATLAB indexing.
15:42:26 <nortti> ^ul ((a)S)(!(b)S)(^)(:::)^!^
15:42:28 <nortti> ^ul ((a)S)(!(b)S)(^)(:)^!^
15:42:30 <nortti> ^ul ((a)S)(!(b)S)(^)()^!^
15:42:33 <nortti> ^ul ((a)S)(!(b)S)(^)(!)^!^
15:42:39 <nortti> ok, that works at least
15:43:12 * oerjan detects his table method
15:43:40 <fizzie> I mean, as long as you consider them as just dimensions 1, 2, 3, ....
15:44:22 <nortti> ^ul (:::)()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S
15:44:27 <nortti> ^ul (!)()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S
15:44:44 <nortti> ^ul (:::)(!)*()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S
15:45:49 <nortti> ^ul (S)(N) ~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~ (~S( )S:^):^
15:46:10 <nortti> ^ul (S)(N) ~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~ aSaSaSaSaS
15:46:15 <nortti> ^ul (S)(N) ~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~ aSaSaSaS
15:46:23 <nortti> ^ul (S)(N) ~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~
15:46:27 <oerjan> nortti: you cannot use spaces in the program
15:46:28 <fizzie> Don't put spaces in there.
15:46:37 <nortti> ^ul (S)(N)~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~aSaSaSaS
15:46:44 <nortti> ^ul (S)(N)~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~aSaSaSaSaS
15:47:26 <nortti> ^ul (:::)(~()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~^!^):^!
15:48:12 <fizzie> oren: Discounting your prejudices about row-major matrices, Octave does fix some of the worst MATLAB grammar weirdnesses. Like, you can subscript return values from functions and so on.
15:48:38 <fizzie> Of course it also inherits many bad things in the name of cross-compatibility.
15:49:03 <nortti> ^ul (:::)((a)S)(!((a)S):^)(^)(:::)^(~aS:^):^
15:49:03 <fungot> (^)(^)(^)(^)(!((a)S):^)((a)S)(:::) ...out of stack!
15:49:10 <nortti> ^ul (:::)((a)S)(!((a)S):^)(^)(:::)^!^(~aS:^):^
15:49:10 <fungot> a((a)S)(:::) ...out of stack!
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15:49:43 <nortti> ^ul (:::)((,)S)(!((,)S):^)(^)(:::)^!^(~aS:^):^
15:49:43 <fungot> ,((,)S)(:::) ...out of stack!
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15:54:24 <nortti> oh, derp, missed a : there
15:54:48 <nortti> ^ul (:::)(~:()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~):^!
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16:00:19 <nortti> ^ul (:::)(~:()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~^^):^!
16:00:34 <nortti> ^ul (::::::)(~:()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~^^):^!
16:00:34 <fungot> ******* ****** ***** **** *** ** *
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16:00:42 <nortti> that took far too long to build
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16:15:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sinatra * New user account
16:27:48 <oren> fizzie: Does Octave allow me to have more than one function in a file?
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16:31:25 <fizzie> oren: I'm not sure about more than one publicly accessible function, because it makes the automatic function-to-file mapping paradigm confused.
16:31:49 <fizzie> Both Octave and MATLAB let you have multiple functions that are called by the main one, of course.
16:33:14 <fizzie> I think Octave lets you define functions in a "script", as in, a non-function.
16:33:24 <oren> Oh, apparently Octave allows me to define a bunch of functions in a script file and then use them in the commands
16:33:26 <fizzie> Which you could then source into a session.
16:33:47 <oren> well that fixed one of the shit things of matlab
16:34:23 <fizzie> You can also define functions on the interactive command line, which means you don't have to attempt to mangle everything into a single lambda.
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16:48:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44057 * Sinatra * (+446) Created page with "It's the linear programming language that uses just words and numbers! :Hello world: <code>push h push e push l push l push o push _32 push w push o push r push l push d allo..."
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16:49:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44058&oldid=44004 * Sinatra * (+12) /* V */
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16:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44059&oldid=44057 * Sinatra * (+111)
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17:36:56 <Virgolang> checkout http://esolangs.org/wiki/Virgo
17:37:30 * Virgolang slaps gde33 around a bit with a large fishbot
17:40:02 * Virgolang slaps |f`-`|f around a bit with a large fishbot
17:40:05 <zgrep> Well, at least two people are.
17:41:00 <Virgolang> i am the maker of virgo linear esoteric language
17:42:48 <oren> what does this have to do with linear programming?
17:42:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44060&oldid=44059 * Sinatra * (+46)
17:43:15 <ashl> Virgolang: can i have your autograph?
17:43:24 <oren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_programming
17:45:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44061&oldid=44060 * Sinatra * (+15)
17:45:44 <zgrep> In the case of programming languages, linear seems to have a different meaning. And an autograph is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autograph
17:46:14 <oren> “Autograph refers to a famous person's artistic signature.”
17:46:56 <Virgolang> since trying to do with mouse in paint just waste of time
17:47:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44062&oldid=44061 * Sinatra * (+45)
17:51:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44063&oldid=44062 * Sinatra * (+160)
17:52:51 <newsham> can you do linear programming in a line by line fashion?
18:05:15 <nortti> ^ul (~:()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~^!^):^!
18:05:47 <nortti> ^ul (~:()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~^^):^!
18:05:56 <nortti> ^ul (::)(~:()a~(^(*)*)~^^S( )S(!)*~a(!)~*(:^)*(:()~)~a*^~(^)~^!^):^!
18:08:23 <nortti> that's a program in underload I've spent far too much time working on
18:09:16 <nortti> you feed it a number as in http://esolangs.org/wiki/Underload#Numbers ← there, and it outputs a series of stars, starting from the number and counting down
18:10:16 <nortti> ...err, except not, it seems
18:10:53 <nortti> instead of those, I use one where (!) = 0, () = 1, (:) = 2, (::) = 3, ...
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18:18:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44064&oldid=44063 * Sinatra * (+1082)
18:25:12 <ashl> a series of stars?
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18:41:45 <oren> sorry unicode, I don't know what a "symbol for samaritan source" looks like
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18:49:16 <ashl> i know what it looks like but i don't know what it means
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18:56:19 <oren> Also. Why do they call ㌁ a square ARUHUA? It's a square ARUFA, can'te these people READ?!?!?
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18:58:33 <Melvar> oren: Because they’re not using your preferred romanization.
18:58:42 <oren> アルファ＝ ARUFA. アルフア＝ ARUHUA
18:59:19 <HackEgo> [U+30D5 KATAKANA LETTER HU]
18:59:22 <oren> If they were using the romaji they seem to be using, it would be ARUHUXA
19:00:12 <ashl> it's probably just to irritate you personally oren
19:00:44 <oren> ァ and ア are different!
19:01:22 <b_jonas> oren: in the fontdemo page, what do the green characters mean?
19:01:31 <oren> They're the newest ones
19:01:49 <ashl> it's not like the unicode consortium has never made a mistake before :P
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19:04:16 <oren> speaking of which, I should update the font
19:04:34 <oren> I have a newer version on my terminal right now.
19:06:53 <oren> it adds only a few new characters
19:07:05 <b_jonas> but does it improve some existing ones?
19:07:13 <b_jonas> it's not only new characters that matter
19:08:05 <oren> It does solve a bug I noticed that ≈≉ are switched
19:08:19 <oren> 2680-2685 213e 213f 1d00-1d2b are added
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19:10:08 <oren> I should probably do that though
19:11:08 <oren> To boost my character count and thus my ranking on the "most characters" list?
19:11:17 <oren> currently at 13th
19:12:23 <b_jonas> oren: add the rest of Coptic script?
19:12:59 <oren> also a good idea!
19:13:02 <b_jonas> or subscript and superscript latin letters, that's easy because if you do one, you can translate it to the other
19:13:52 <b_jonas> those don't exist as characters in unicode
19:14:16 <b_jonas> yes, the ones used for phonetic transcription exist,
19:14:25 <b_jonas> and the superscript n exists for cp437
19:15:02 <Melvar> oren: So, my best guess is that Unicode uses ISO 3602, but the wikipedia article doesn’t mention what happens to small kana in combinations like that.
19:15:16 <b_jonas> oren: more usefully, you could add the Greek letters with diacritics.
19:15:22 <b_jonas> how many of those are there?
19:15:52 <pikhq> Melvar: Probably just doesn't specify.
19:16:03 <pikhq> Such combinations are fairly new in Japanese.
19:16:12 <Melvar> All for scholarly Ancient Greek.
19:16:25 <Melvar> The ancient Greeks themselves didn’t use them.
19:16:47 <ashl> "most characters" list?
19:18:19 <b_jonas> oren: or perhaps you could add fullwidth Katakana, and other doublewidth characters
19:18:24 <Melvar> And modern Greek has flattened out nearly all of the distinctions those marked (and many more besides).
19:18:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44065&oldid=44064 * Sinatra * (+281)
19:19:41 <Virgolang> how is Virgo? (programming language, not Zodiac sign one)
19:24:12 <b_jonas> oren: um, it looks as if you've pushed the demo but not the font file
19:24:34 <b_jonas> oren: or an old version of the font file
19:24:35 <oren> I'll tell you when I've fixed it
19:29:08 <oren> the font is up now I have to edit the demo
19:31:33 <oren> In the words of some angry guy on tv: FUCKIT, WE"LL DO IT LIVE!
19:34:22 <oren> that oughta do it
19:35:00 <oren> Now I should prbably remove green from some of the ones that aren't that new
19:35:29 <b_jonas> make a rainbow version of the whole thing
19:37:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Timwi * uploaded "[[File:Ziim — Add.png]]": Addition function for binary numbers in [[Ziim]].
19:38:32 <oren> Oh yeah I also added Hebrew vowels but I can't figure out how to show them on their own
19:40:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ziim]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44067&oldid=44045 * Timwi * (+4333) Addition!
19:41:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ziim]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44068&oldid=44067 * Timwi * (+36) Code too large :)
19:42:17 <oren> Hmm.. the university sent me a check for 400 dollars, with basically no explanantion
19:42:41 <oren> It is apparenty an "award payment" whatever that mean
19:43:34 <b_jonas> oren: hehe, you have the black chess figures but not the white ones
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19:44:22 <oren> b_jonas: I tried to draw them. GOD knows I tried.
19:45:26 <oren> I'll try again at some point maybe make the white ones a simpler style somehow
19:46:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44069&oldid=44065 * Sinatra * (+481) Grouping the instructions and functions.
19:46:15 <oren> hppavilion[1]: Test Acknoleged
19:46:31 * Virgolang slaps villasukka around a bit with a large fishbot
19:47:28 <int-e> excellent slapfish performance
19:48:03 <oren> anyway colors should not be in Unicode.
19:49:01 <oren> I am aware of the monty python reference which you are dereferencing
19:49:08 <int-e> b_jonas: must've been a red one.
19:55:49 <fizzie> Bleeh. Sent a dissertation draft that *may* be the version that goes to preliminary examination. I might be like ais523 one day. (Okay, not really; it's not mathy at all.)
19:56:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44070&oldid=44069 * Sinatra * (+475) Documented the type selector.
19:59:40 <pikhq> Hmm. Finally, an approach to setting terminal titles in a shell that I don't horribly dislike...
19:59:48 <pikhq> Screw the whole "check $TERM" nonsense.
20:00:03 <pikhq> Run a small program that detects if the escape codes for it actually work.
20:00:29 <pikhq> (basically, attempt to set the title, and check if that moved the cursor)
20:00:49 <fizzie> int-e: I think that "should" (in the in-a-perfect-world sense) produce "Thud".
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20:11:06 <oren> Hey, I though I fixed this?!!?
20:11:52 <oren> ª°¹º are all off-style for my font
20:12:26 <oren> maybe I dreamed fixing it and did'nt do it in real life
20:12:46 <oren> that has happened for coursework before
20:16:29 <oren> My font isn't Ziim compatible: it has ↑↗→↘↓↙←↖↕↔ but not ⤢⤡
20:17:16 <hppavilion[1]> My computer didn't show the two that weren't compatible
20:18:39 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+2922 NORTH EAST AND SOUTH WEST ARROW] [U+2921 NORTH WEST AND SOUTH EAST ARROW]
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20:21:46 <oren> the next version will have those
20:23:15 <int-e> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Ziim
20:23:34 <int-e> (to be fair, I googled that a couple of minutes ago)
20:25:57 <oren> I've also drawn the rest of the coptic characters in "greek and coptic" block
20:28:27 <Virgolang> ↘←↙ ↓ →↖ ↑ ↕→↖⤢← → ↙⤡→ ↖ ↙⤡ ← ↕← ↗→ ↖ → ↖↑ → ↖ ↖
20:29:10 <int-e> actually ↑↗→↘↓↙←↖ looks like a nice set of digits for base 8
20:29:18 <Virgolang> ↓ ↘ ←↘ ↙ ← ↓ ⤢ ↕ ↗↖→ ↖ ↖ ←↓↓ ↓↓ → ↙↑ ↗ ← ↖⤡↘↙ ↗
20:29:47 <Virgolang> although my esolang is not so esoteric
20:29:48 <myname> nah, brilliant language
20:30:56 <Virgolang> my esolang (virgo) is not so esoteric but, it is hellish as Assembly!
20:31:41 <hppavilion[1]> I fucked up making my instruction set the first time round xD
20:32:15 <hppavilion[1]> I should've grouped the float operations after the base2 operations
20:32:49 <int-e> wth is a "2nd tier instruction"
20:33:05 <int-e> it's not hellish, it's underspecified.
20:33:27 <Virgolang> 2nd tier instructions = functions that only can be used with call instruction
20:34:20 <Virgolang> virgo is nightmare for the c++ developers!
20:35:18 <int-e> well, it feels like a virtual machine bytecode.
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20:40:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44071&oldid=44070 * Sinatra * (+213) Clarification
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20:44:16 <Sgeo_> Are inaccurate commit messages sufficient reason for rejecting a pull request?
20:44:40 <Sgeo_> (I also have functionality-related reasons for rejecting this request, but wondering if I should mention the commit messages)
20:44:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44072&oldid=44071 * Sinatra * (+61)
20:44:58 <Sgeo_> Like this one called "Added title" which does everything but https://github.com/Samcfuchs/sgeo.github.io/commit/f6eaf2b2548d3dd8b85ddec50ccdf9a1f025a463
20:46:00 <int-e> Sgeo_: I wouldn't be upset about a pull request being rejected because of bad commit messages
20:46:40 <int-e> (I would be upset about not writing better commit messages, perhaps)
20:46:42 <hppavilion[1]> I remade the instruction set with arithmetical and (hyperbolic) trigonometric operations. Also, conversions between double-precision floating point and 64-bit integer. And registry operations (SET, MOV). What to add next? Should I go with branching? Or IO? Or is there something else important I'm missing?
20:46:51 <Sgeo_> Would they be able to fix those commit messages somehow? Some of this stuff does look good and add needed functionality
20:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> I'm also making an effort to conserve vertical space.
20:47:30 <int-e> git rebase -i allows one to 'edit' commit, which includes changing their description
20:48:09 <hppavilion[1]> Also, I have the file set up so that I need not reorder it
20:48:10 <int-e> (the result will be new commits, but rebase always does that anyway)
20:48:13 <Virgolang> what should i add to virgo ? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Virgo
20:49:32 <int-e> a way to make calls conditional
20:50:20 <int-e> that might be enough to make it TC, if the callable functions include setjmp and longjmp...
20:52:03 <hppavilion[1]> Virgolang: While you're adding IO, you might want to check out http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stream
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20:56:23 <int-e> hmm, is there an IOCCC entry that *only* uses setjmp and longjmp for control flow? http://www.ioccc.org/2004/burley.c looks good at first glance but actually uses ?:, && and || as well.
20:59:17 <oren> What if you use the GNU extention to get the adress of a label and then just apply pointer arithmetic to it?
21:00:14 <oren> or are you only allowed to submit things that are standerds complient
21:00:15 <Sgeo_> If I have code suggestions, do I just make those tweaks myself, or allow the pusher to do so?
21:02:59 <int-e> oren: I guess I'd prefer standard-compliant programs. so no poking inside jmp_buf, at which point the address of the label won't do you much good anymore, I think.
21:03:30 <oren> what kind of letter is Ѹ?
21:04:01 <oren> how is "Uk" a good name for a letter that looks like Oy?
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21:06:55 <int-e> hmm. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uk_%28Cyrillic%29
21:08:40 <int-e> so it's an oo sound; the k is just a part of the letter's name.
21:10:32 <MDream> I ought to go do other stuff now, but I should also remember to work on codesine a bit again tonight.
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21:11:18 <MDude> After thinking a bit I remembered that something I wanted out of that diea was to have it programmed mostly through an interactive session with a program.
21:11:49 <MDude> So isntead of laying out everything in advance you just tweak functions here and there by adding wave systems together.
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21:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Though I could in theory implement something as high-level as a while loop
21:19:22 <hppavilion[1]> But I think I'll stick to Branching and Conditional Branching
21:20:48 <hppavilion[1]> Or I could include more than one and shit I'm using up a bunch of space
21:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> As in it's hard to conditionally branch, or you're having a hard time implementing it yourself?
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21:28:04 <hppavilion[1]> My Naive approach: You just have a finder that increments on an if start and decrements on and end. When it reaches zero, record that location. Then, evaluate the if statement and move the pointer to there if it shouldn't execute
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21:29:02 <hppavilion[1]> You know what I might do? Implement a virgo assembler for IndeterminantVM
21:30:17 <hppavilion[1]> I haven't even finished IndeterminantVM's instruction set design yet though xD
21:31:11 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe you should make a C-like language called Local Group that compiles to virgo xD
21:31:16 <Virgolang> i chosen to make virgo assembly-like because it is too fast
21:31:54 <Virgolang> my older sister's constellation is capricorn
21:32:43 <hppavilion[1]> You get to design a language, I get the prestige of having made a compiler
21:33:04 <hppavilion[1]> What language are you implementing the current interpreter in?
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21:36:52 <Virgolang> you write capricorn++, it compiles to virgo, it runs on TVM (Taurus VM)...
21:36:58 <hppavilion[1]> Not bytes though. Each instruction is two bytes, followed by a one-byte length argument, then that many 8-byte arguments (for the long registers)
21:39:02 <hppavilion[1]> Saggitaurus, I believe. Though I don't really care about that stuff xD
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21:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps we should make something called Andromeda, as that's a REALLY cool name
21:40:06 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps Andromeda can be the program for assembling/compiling?
21:41:52 <hppavilion[1]> I think that all languages made should have a tiny bit of esotericism mixed in with them
21:42:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44073&oldid=44072 * Sinatra * (+1633)
21:43:37 <Virgolang> i am trying to make virgo virgolike
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21:44:10 <hppavilion[1]> And which one you choose depends on which you find easist
21:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> You could make the "Push" instruction for the language push each of its arguments in order, as opposed to having to do push a push b push c
21:45:35 <hppavilion[1]> Assembly is allowed to have shortcuts like this xD
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21:46:49 <hppavilion[1]> For development of Taurus and related programs and languages?
21:48:09 <Virgolang> http://webchat.freenode.net/?channels=esoteric&uio=d4
21:48:43 <hppavilion[1]> If I may recommend a client, I would point you towards HexChat, a FOSS
21:51:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zodiac Working Group]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44074 * Hppavilion1 * (+149) Created Page
21:52:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zodiac Working Group]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44075&oldid=44074 * Hppavilion1 * (+40) Became More Honest
21:54:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44076&oldid=43321 * Hppavilion1 * (+60) ZWG
21:55:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44077&oldid=44073 * Sinatra * (+181) /* Standart Input & Output */
21:57:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44078&oldid=43916 * Hppavilion1 * (+69) ZWG
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22:02:22 <oren> um. dude your already in #zodiac
22:03:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ingredients-Oriented Paradigm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44079&oldid=44018 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) commas
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22:09:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44080&oldid=44024 * Phase * (-837) Blanked the page
22:11:06 <oerjan> not a very constructive response
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22:12:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44081&oldid=44077 * Sinatra * (+384)
22:14:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44082&oldid=44034 * Martin Büttner * (+95) New semantics for ?
22:15:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44083&oldid=44082 * Martin Büttner * (+2) /* General */
22:16:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44084&oldid=44081 * Sinatra * (+45)
22:16:47 <oerjan> because no one is talking
22:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TaurusVM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44085 * Hppavilion1 * (+205) Created Page
22:17:33 <oerjan> it varies a lot, on this channel
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22:24:42 <oren> you want some noise https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z8ez0QUAEw
22:28:10 <oren> oerjan: you don't liek mudkips^H^H^H^H^H^H^H dubstep?
22:30:56 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
22:32:23 <oerjan> oren: i didn't even click the link, but if it was dupstep, i only stay more firm in my decision.
22:36:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44086&oldid=44084 * Sinatra * (+75)
22:37:15 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Q319DNswRc <-- not dubstep
22:37:21 <Virgolang> how is http://esolangs.org/wiki/Virgo
22:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44087&oldid=44086 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) Fixed some wording
22:42:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44088&oldid=44087 * Sinatra * (+78)
22:45:59 <fizzie> oerjan: Today, I sorted the programs in http://zem.fi/egostats/plot_cycles.png -- the heatmap of battle lengths -- by total number of cycles in matches involving the program. I think it's an improvement.
22:46:14 <fizzie> (They used to be just in best-first order, which made it appear quite random.)
22:48:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44089&oldid=44088 * Hppavilion1 * (+12) Retroactivity
22:48:32 <fizzie> It's statistics about http://zem.fi/bfjoust/
22:48:40 <oerjan> fizzie: wait, i have a program on the hill?
22:48:55 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's the one you were testing with. It's the last one. :p
22:49:03 <zzo38> Virgolang: That is OK, but perhaps should include macros, other that that is OK
22:49:25 <fizzie> oerjan: One of them is called "apparently", and I think that's the one you used when someone said something about zemhill working again.
22:49:43 <fizzie> I don't know what netsnail is.
22:49:47 <Virgolang> zzo38: macros will start with a dot.
22:49:47 <zzo38> They would help also with more explanation about what the <value> and so on is, since it seem to mean a few different kind of things
22:50:23 <Virgolang> zzo38: it will be like macros on c++ without the #define
22:50:23 <fizzie> oerjan: You submitted it on May 23rd.
22:52:12 <fizzie> Huh, I think I see something that might be a gitweb bug.
22:52:20 <oerjan> hm it was last then, but somehow hasn't dropped off? i guess zemhill may have broken shortly after...
22:53:21 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/git/?p=hill;a=commit;h=3c39826 has the commit message "Updating infinitymaster.Iron_Will_and_a_Clear_Conscience", but gitweb shows it in some places as "Updating infinityIron_Will_and_a_Clear_Conscience".
22:53:33 <fizzie> I think it's stripping out "master." thinking it's some sort of branch identifier.
22:54:08 <fizzie> (I thought something in my scripts had broken, but it's correct in "git log", and in some places in gitweb.)
22:54:31 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking of making a Geometry-based ISA. As a gendankenexperiment or something
22:55:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44090&oldid=44089 * Sinatra * (+61)
22:55:28 <fizzie> oerjan: It's the last commit before the ones three days ago.
22:55:37 <fizzie> oerjan: Possibly it's even the program that broke it!
22:59:43 <fizzie> I've been thinking of making those visualizations client-side, with something like d3, because then I could maybe (a) get them update automatically, and/or (b) make the "this shows only top 7" plots sufficiently dynamic to show any programs you might be interested in. Although it might not be until the next peak of bfjoust interest before I get sufficiently motivated.
23:00:38 <fizzie> Plus it takes something like 26065072 bytes to just represent the statistics collected in raw bytes, not to mention dumped in JSON form, so just dumping them out and doing everything on the client might not be that feasible.
23:01:08 <fizzie> (That's a slight underestimate, I forgot about the points.)
23:07:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44091&oldid=44090 * Sinatra * (+157)
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23:16:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44092&oldid=44091 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Corrected english (s/standart/standard/)
23:16:45 <zzo38> Do you think the definition I made of the SOUND and EXTOP instruction of the QUACKVM is OK how it is now or should some change to be made? Currently those specification are only draft (and are not implemented)
23:18:25 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I don't know, try to design it and see if it work
23:24:50 <zzo38> I don't know, name them "Geometric-VM" if it is Geometric ISA
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00:23:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Structure-free Query Language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44093 * OriginalOldMan * (+2223) Created page with "The Structure-free Query Language is an alternative to the popular Structured Query Language (SQL). It was created in 2015 by [[User:OriginalOldMan]]. ==Data== As suggested ..."
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00:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GreekVM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44094 * Hppavilion1 * (+242) Created Page
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00:39:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GreekVM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44095&oldid=44094 * Hppavilion1 * (+363) Memory
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01:26:07 <zzo38> In today's Dungeons&Dragons session (with Kjugobe, not the new one) I used four items that had been in my inventory for some time and hadn't been used yet; these are an afro, nail clipper, beard clipper, and an IOU.
01:26:59 <zzo38> (All were used to help a prisoner to escape from prison so that he could help us; he is the only one who could anyways)
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01:49:43 <oren> new characters! ☉☊☋☌☍☎☏☭☮☯♈♉♊♋♌♍♎♏♐♑♒♓⟰⟱⇫⇬⇭⇮⇯⇰⇱⇲⇳⇴ѮѯѸѹѺѻ
01:51:17 <zzo38> Fixed in Unicode-mode (the xterm used for the IRC is in UTF-8 mode) can display all but two, it looks like.
01:52:38 <zzo38> I can see astrological signs as well as a few other symbols used in astrology, but also things on the right I do not know (perhaps the resolution is too small to figure out?)
01:56:26 <hppavilion[1]> I just switched to NeoLetters as my IRCing typeface
01:57:17 <oren> it's supposed to look techy
01:57:29 <oren> it does support hebrew though:
01:57:39 <hppavilion[1]> Like the kind of tech they would've used if they had invented computers in Biblical times
01:57:46 <oren> אבגדהוזחטיךכלםמן
01:57:46 <oren> נסעףפץצקרשתװױײ׳״
01:58:04 <zzo38> In case you want to study Bible, it is helpful to be able to write Hebrew with it too.
01:58:05 <hppavilion[1]> It'll come in handy with my "study" of Ancient Walrusian Mathematics
01:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> I'm switching to courrier new so my eyes don't bleed (from sheer beauty, that is)
01:59:26 <hppavilion[1]> What should the number system for Ancient Walrusian Mathematics be like?
01:59:35 <zzo38> I am using Fixed, the same font for IRC as for the UNIX shell
02:00:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not discussing numeric encoding. I'm discussing how the Ring should behave
02:00:31 <oren> Note that the version of neoletters on Fontstruct isn't as good as the one on my website. I do adjectments to the font metrics in font forge before uploading it
02:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> The Walrusians were a hyperintelligent race of Walruses. They were practically gods
02:01:19 <oren> in particular, Windows runs the letters together too much if I don't adject the font metrics
02:01:32 <oren> s/adject/adjust
02:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> I should stop saying "were," as the Walrusians kind of trancended our dimension and left our notions of time. "were" "are" and "will be" are meaningless when describing them unless discussing their history in this universe
02:02:06 <oren> the most current version is http://www.orenwatson.be/neolettersC.ttf
02:02:23 <hppavilion[1]> various kinds (such as /triangular/) quaternion matrices, no less
02:02:30 <zzo38> Yes, but in the kind of writing about time-travel and similar stuff like that, the language is not design to it and can be confusing!!!
02:03:40 <zzo38> oren: Can you please tell me what is the new characters? Some I can figure out but some I do not undertsand I hoped you would know what it means.
02:04:07 <hppavilion[1]> It's not time travel. It's trancendence of space and time into a sixteen-dimensional universe.
02:04:38 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I know it is not time travel, as you have already explained; what I meant is that the language is just as confusing (perhaps more so) than time travel
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02:06:55 <oren> zzo38: it is the hammer and sickle, the hippie sign, the yin-yang sign, the 12 zodiac signs, some astrological symbols, the black and white phones, some misc. arrows, and some cyrillic letters
02:07:48 <hppavilion[1]> There's no such thing as triangular matrices in human mathematics, is there?
02:08:02 <hppavilion[1]> Not like ones with zeroes in them to make it a triangle
02:08:14 <oren> I'm not sure if hippie sign is the correct name for ☮ but that's what i call it
02:09:00 <zzo38> Invent it, how is it multiply together?
02:09:20 <zzo38> It doesn't seem a matrix, a triangular matrix is a new kind of thing rather than a matrix
02:09:34 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, but I don't mean by-element
02:09:46 <zzo38> OK, call it tritrix if you want to.
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02:10:08 <hppavilion[1]> I don't understand normal matrix multiplication, let alone am able to make up a new kind for a new thing xD
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02:10:19 <zzo38> Then learn normal matrix multiplication.
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02:16:18 <fowl> Net split means one of freenode servers disconnected from the others
02:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> And those are all the people who were on those servers?
02:16:45 <fowl> Those people are in a channel by themselves and it looks like everyone else netsplit
02:17:17 <hppavilion[1]> How do we know we aren't the ones in the channel by ourselves?
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02:18:09 <fowl> Depends on how many people you see get disconnected
02:18:39 <fowl> I've been in #ubuntu on a netsplit where 900/950 people vanished lol
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02:34:37 <zzo38> Even if you try to make a tensor product it look like it would leave gaps. Tratrix does not seem so useful or meaningful so much!
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02:37:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44096&oldid=43944 * Rdococ * (+234) /* A Folder RPG */
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02:38:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44097&oldid=44096 * Rdococ * (+111) /* A Folder RPG */
02:41:45 <zzo38> I had the idea too, and wanted to have a esolang or chess variant having such properties, but I do not know how.
02:43:09 <hppavilion[1]> I'm talking to a guy who experimented with Cellular Automata with it over on ##math
02:43:22 <hppavilion[1]> If you join you'll show up in time for the grand post
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03:10:46 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to make a programming language where Minecraft is an acceptable IDE
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03:26:53 <hppavilion[1]> We need a T language (T:topology::R:statistics&analysis)
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03:27:21 <zzo38> O, OK you can try to do it
03:27:30 <zzo38> Although for statistics I generally just use SQLite
03:28:05 <zzo38> (Although I had to write some extension to do such thing as calculating the median and so on; many statistical stuff is not built-in to SQLite)
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03:39:35 <zzo38> I still know of no graphics extensions for SQLite although I could write one that works by sixel graphics.
03:44:26 <oren_> zzo38: Probably more modern terminals would support the use of octxel graphics using unicode bralle
03:45:55 <zzo38> If you do not need colors then you could implement that too, although I intend to use sixel graphics (and do not normally use Unicode terminals)
03:46:53 <zzo38> It could be done by a SQL function that converts it I suppose, if you want to
03:49:21 <HackEgo> danddreclist 66: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
03:52:40 <zzo38> I would have design the game to make "Triangle of Magic" to be less unbalanced; by Triangle of Magic I mean: magic beats mundane, antimagic beats magic, mundane beats antimagic. (My character uses all three techniques.)
03:59:23 <zzo38> (And then there are artifacts, which beat everything.)
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04:04:26 <bender|> are objects on stack in underload strings?
04:09:47 <zzo38> In Underload they put only string in stack
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04:20:41 <zzo38> Oops, I must have accidentally deleted it
04:21:00 <zzo38> I will restore it from the backup and then retype the rest.
04:21:55 <zzo38> The backups are from July 14
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04:25:01 <zzo38> I found a undelete program but am unsure how to use it.
04:26:00 <zzo38> It is called "extundelete"
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04:29:21 <zzo38> Fortunately I still have these hard drives, as well as an external device to access them, and the power supply for them!
04:30:18 <doesthiswork> that gives me an idea for a linear language, each program is single use only. When it runs it deletes itself
04:31:52 <Sgeo__> It also kills the programmer to ensure they cannot type in the program again
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04:36:15 <zzo38> And most of it does not even have to be retyped, since I can just copy the text from the DVI
04:38:04 <bender|> in underload, during the concatenation operation, do the elements that were needed to be concatenated popped from stack?
04:38:58 <bender|> e.g.: (li)(fe)* (do the individual 'li' and 'fe' remain and 'life' is pushed to stack or are they popped out?)
04:39:23 <Sgeo__> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-2521
04:39:30 <zzo38> They are removed from the stack and the result is push to stack
04:48:30 <zzo38> OK, the file is now fully restored.
04:48:42 <zzo38> doesthiswork: Try again; it works now.
04:49:13 <zzo38> Does it work for you now?
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05:39:17 <zzo38> Did you read it? Do you like what it is written on here? Is there any mistake you could find, or any way to improve perhaps?
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06:11:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Help, WarDoq!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44098&oldid=44048 * Rdebath * (+220) /* Fail. */
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07:03:48 <zzo38> Make the Magic: the Gathering card that can be of a type "instant creature"; I think it is then cast as instants but can have power/toughness and creature types, can be counted by Lhurgoyf, can use scavenge ability if it has any, etc.
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07:05:27 <shachaf> Mark Rosewater has said that he would make Instant work that way if he was redoing the game.
07:05:48 <shachaf> I.e. "instant creature", "instant sorcery", and so on. Rather than using the "flash" keyword.
07:06:09 <zzo38> That isn't what I mean
07:06:46 <zzo38> I mean it is played and then discarded, so it doesn't go into play, but still counts as a creature anyways
07:08:10 <zzo38> Some keyword abilities are only use for creatures or only use for some card types, but can be used with others as well even though it isn't, therefore we can make up the card that uses them otherwise anyways, or in other unusual way (such as tribute that doesn't check if the tribute isn't paid, and so on)
07:08:46 <shachaf> That's a bit like Evoke, I guess.
07:11:43 <zzo38> Dash on something with vanishing (whether or not a creature) is another thing
07:12:57 <shachaf> But in both of those cases the permanent enters the battlefield.
07:13:00 <zzo38> Combine tribute with unleash or undying; I think I have done this kind of thing too
07:13:07 <shachaf> You're proposing that it doesn't even enter the battlefield in the first place.
07:13:31 <zzo38> I did say that if a card has the type "instant creature" then it cannot enter the battlefield.
07:25:24 <zzo38> I also had idea, the epic version of Time Stop
07:25:52 <shachaf> What would the use of that be?
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07:27:26 <zzo38> Of course it stop you from attacking and so on, but how much is it worth what kind of mana cost it would then be?
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09:11:13 <myname> are there esoteric prigramming games besides bf joust and fyb?
09:46:15 <fizzie> BeGlad, but it only just barely exists.
09:46:22 <fizzie> Nobody knows much about it, either.
09:46:29 <fizzie> (Short for "Befunge Gladiators".)
09:47:04 <fizzie> Some might even consider regular Core War somewhat esoteric.
09:51:00 <myname> mind providing a link?
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09:54:18 <fizzie> What, about BeGlad? There's not really any links -- that's what I meant for barely existing. The Funge-98 spec has some tantalizing hints ('y' return value 9: "1 cell containing a unique team number for the current IP. Only significant for NetFunge, BeGlad, and the like." The archived Befunge FAQ from '97 has a short description: "BeGlad (Befunge Gladiators) is more like Core Wars; Programs ...
09:54:24 <fizzie> ... written in a modified version of Befunge-97 actually attack within Befunge-space itself, trying to force the other program to run out of processes and die."
09:54:30 <fizzie> Befunge '97 itself is kind of mysterious, too.
09:54:52 <fizzie> http://archive.is/RAzLK question 1.3.
09:55:00 <fizzie> It also mentions a "BefBots".
09:55:55 <fizzie> Yes, I think they're all lost in time, like tears in rain.
09:57:11 <fizzie> If cpressey visits the channel again, next time someone could ask them if they've got any material about this stuff.
09:57:40 <fizzie> Although maybe that's not very promising, given that even http://catseye.tc/node/Befunge-97 has no spec on file.
09:58:17 <myname> a befunge programming game would be great
09:58:35 <myname> i can't think of any reason this hasn't been picked up
10:01:54 <fizzie> There's also a Befunge-96, which was even less successful. Both '96 and '97 don't have that much presence in the webs.
10:02:23 <fizzie> One of them ('96?) had multithreading (in the Funge-98 style, with a list of IPs executing in lockstep) with a *shared stack*.
10:02:32 <fizzie> That probably would've been a nightmare to program.
10:03:23 <myname> i am tempted to build multithreading into rail
10:12:45 <mauris__> (maybe: befunge wars where you just try to trick the other program into terminating??)
10:13:45 <fizzie> The "obvious" core wars translation would be to stick both programs into same finite-sized (wrapping) playfield, and have them try to use g/p to put a @ executed by the other program.
10:14:09 <fizzie> Possibly tweaking g/p to use coordinates relative to either the instruction or the load offset of the program.
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10:22:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44099&oldid=19065 * Timwi * (+262) Question about while loops
10:37:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44100&oldid=44099 * Timwi * (+176) /* Ambiguity in while behaviour */
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10:55:32 <Deewiant> fizzie, myname: I have Befunge 97 and 96 specs of some kind.
10:55:56 <Deewiant> fizzie: archive.is remains blocked in Finland so I dislike your link.
10:58:05 <ashl> what's archive.is
10:58:34 <Deewiant> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archive.is
10:59:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: I blame Google, that's where the link was from.
11:02:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44101&oldid=31121 * Timwi * (+59) clarifications (according to approved interpreter)
11:03:49 <Deewiant> Tch, it's the only hit for "Befunge Mini-FAQ", too.
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11:04:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44102&oldid=44101 * Timwi * (+13) another clarification
11:05:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44103&oldid=44100 * Timwi * (+177) /* Reading from Stdin */
11:06:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44104&oldid=44102 * Timwi * (+29) another clarification
11:15:30 <fizzie> Deewiant: That was my own name for it, I think.
11:15:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: http://web.archive.org/web/20010417044912/http://cantor.res.cmu.edu/bozeman/befunge/beffaq.html
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12:05:09 <ashl> i don't understand why the finnish government would have a dispute with an archive service
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12:15:17 <mauris> probably the same reason india blocked pastebin
12:18:10 <mauris> say what you want about windows notepad as a text editor, but karmically it's totally in the green!
12:20:25 <Deewiant> ashl: I suspect the guy is confused or had a bad experience with an individual and overreacted
12:20:29 <lambdabot> http://forum.esolang.com/index.php?showtopic=3552
12:20:29 <lambdabot> Title: ����� � ����� ������� - ����� ...
12:21:37 <lambdabot> http://www.tumblr.com/tagged/esotericc
12:23:03 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
12:23:10 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
12:23:15 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
12:23:32 <lambdabot> karma provides: karma karma+ karma- karma-all
12:23:50 <lambdabot> You can't change your own karma, silly.
12:24:13 <fowl> @karma+ Virgolang
12:24:21 <mauris> @bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
12:25:35 <Virgolang> @bf +[----->+++<]>+.++++++++++++..----.[-->+<]>++.-----------..[--->+<]>.[--->+<]>----.----.---.-----------.+++++++++++++.-------.++++++++++++.+[++>---<]>.---[----->+<]>.+++.-----------.--[->+++<]>.++[--->++<]>+.+[->+++<]>+.++.--.----[->+++<]>.>+[--->++<]>.++++[->++++<]>+.+++++++++.-----------.++++++++.
12:26:06 <lambdabot> Control.Monad mapM :: Monad m => (a -> m b) -> [a] -> m [b]
12:26:06 <lambdabot> Control.Monad forM :: Monad m => [a] -> (a -> m b) -> m [b]
12:26:06 <lambdabot> Data.Traversable mapM :: (Traversable t, Monad m) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
12:26:16 <lambdabot> Try --help for command line options
12:27:25 <lambdabot> system provides: listchans listmodules listservers list echo uptime
12:27:31 <fowl> You have to fill out a form and submit it by fax or mail
12:28:19 <fowl> Standard form 102-A
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12:29:34 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
12:29:53 <lambdabot> pl provides: pointless pl pl-resume
12:30:03 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
12:30:10 <lambdabot> src <id>. Display the implementation of a standard function
12:30:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. Your mind just hasn't been the same since the electro-shock, has it?
12:30:15 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
12:30:22 <lambdabot> Source not found. Where did you learn to type?
12:30:33 <lambdabot> Source not found. Abort, Retry, Panic?
12:31:36 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
12:31:41 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
12:31:45 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
12:31:51 <lambdabot> Source not found. stty: unknown mode: doofus
12:31:55 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
12:32:12 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
12:32:15 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
12:32:18 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
12:32:19 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
12:32:22 <lambdabot> unlambda: Parse error at end of file
12:32:25 <fowl> Are you retarded?
12:32:49 <fowl> Why are you acting like a retarded
12:33:22 <fowl> You know what you should do? Try the same input over and over
12:33:45 <fowl> Yea do it. It will work eventually
12:33:55 <lambdabot> Source not found. My pet ferret can type better than you!
12:33:58 <lambdabot> Source not found. Are you on drugs?
12:34:00 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Surgeon!
12:34:01 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
12:34:04 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
12:34:05 <lambdabot> Source not found. There are some things that I just don't know.
12:34:07 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
12:34:17 <fowl> It's just getting warmed up is all
12:34:23 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
12:34:25 <lambdabot> Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
12:34:25 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
12:34:26 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Surgeon!
12:34:27 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
12:34:30 <lambdabot> Source not found. You speak an infinite deal of nothing.
12:34:38 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Surgeon!
12:34:39 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
12:34:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. Just what do you think you're doing Dave?
12:34:40 <lambdabot> Source not found. I don't think I can be your friend on Facebook anymore.
12:34:41 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
12:34:42 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Surgeon!
12:34:43 <lambdabot> Source not found. And you call yourself a Rocket Scientist!
12:34:44 <lambdabot> Source not found. I can't hear you -- I'm using the scrambler.
12:34:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe if you used more than just two fingers...
12:34:50 <lambdabot> Source not found. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
12:34:52 <lambdabot> Source not found. This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
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12:37:42 * Virgolang slaps lambdabot around a bit with a large fishbot
12:37:52 <fowl> That would be badass and original. Go for it
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13:06:51 <Deewiant> http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/
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13:28:59 <Virgolang> virgo interpreter will be at #virgo
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13:34:42 <izabera> is there anyone here who lived in england in 1940?
13:36:12 <izabera> i need to know how much 100k pounds are worth today
13:36:34 <izabera> it's how much turing asks to build his machine in "the imitation game"
13:38:23 <oerjan> it is possible i lived in england in 1940, but i do not remember since it was before i was born hth
13:39:11 <oerjan> i recall there's some wikipedia feature to do such conversions...
13:40:04 <izabera> ha! found this http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/bills/article-1633409/Historic-inflation-calculator-value-money-changed-1900.html
13:40:40 <oerjan> i found this http://safalra.com/other/historical-uk-inflation-price-conversion/
13:40:48 <oerjan> i think safalra is an esolanger?
13:42:34 <oerjan> 3.8 million in 2013, it stopped there
13:43:33 <izabera> i'd just go back in time and give him a 300$ laptop
13:45:00 <oerjan> > (3957691.80/100000)**(1/(2016-1945))
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14:02:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44105&oldid=44030 * SuperJedi224 * (+66) /* Interpreter */
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14:18:45 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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14:50:35 <HackEgo> [U+2642 MALE SIGN] [U+446D CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-446D]
14:51:09 <int-e> Ah, no character details.
14:51:44 <izabera> oren_: http://i.imgur.com/FSVg1EW.png
14:51:55 <int-e> (Mars; alchemical symbol for iron / war vessel; man-of-war; warship)
14:57:12 <fizzie> The other tool shows some technical data.
14:57:15 <HackEgo> U+2642 MALE SIGN \ UTF-8: e2 99 82 UTF-16BE: 2642 Decimal: ♂ \ ♂ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
14:57:24 <fizzie> But not the description either.
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16:11:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unreadable]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44106&oldid=44104 * Timwi * (+125) /* Interpreter */ Esoteric IDE now supports Unreadable. Tested with the examples on the Talk page as well as [http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/55870/668 this shorter Hello World].
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16:37:52 <ais523> hmm, the early days of bot development
16:38:07 <ais523> although normally you get "client quit" in response to every command, as opposed to "connection reset by peer"
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16:50:06 <zemhill> web.did_not_remember_to_test_this_interface: points -11.88, score 11.81, rank 46/47
16:50:29 <fizzie> (ais523 joining reminded me I didn't test that side at all after the restart.)
16:50:47 <ais523> it didn't even come last
16:51:26 <ais523> !zjoust knock_web_off_the_leaderboard (>)*8(>[+++[-]])*21
16:51:27 <zemhill> ais523.knock_web_off_the_leaderboard: points -7.67, score 14.55, rank 46/47
16:51:48 <ais523> I actually thought that would score more, although I expected it to be a long way down
16:51:56 <ais523> I guess the leaderboard is full of programs that are actually competent
16:52:16 <fizzie> That's the problem a long-running hill faces, I guess.
16:52:25 <ais523> I don't really consider it a problem
16:52:33 <ais523> I seem to remember that there used to be more churn at the bottom, thoguh
16:52:36 <fizzie> I think someone suggested a separate "beginner" hill that's less demoralizing.
16:52:51 <ais523> so that submitting something that hasn't been popular in a long while would come like 10 spaces from the end
16:53:03 <ais523> !zjoust vibration (-)*127(-+)*100000
16:53:03 <zemhill> ais523.vibration: points -12.31, score 10.96, rank 47/47
16:53:20 <fizzie> Yes, I think that used to be the case.
16:53:28 <ais523> hmm, did I mess something up there?
16:54:00 <ais523> it does in fact get plenty of wins
16:55:10 <ais523> and ofc anticipation2, which is the "clever" version of the same idea, is doing just fine on that hill IIRC
16:56:23 <fizzie> Total score from the breakdown summaries is -517 out of [-1932, 1932], so it's not at all bad.
16:59:26 <ais523> I was fearing that the hill had gotten overcentralize
16:59:41 <ais523> but every time I fear that, either I discover I'm wrong, or else I find some way to exploit what everyone else is doing
16:59:54 <ais523> (growth2, for example, is definitely an "exploit what everyone else is doing" program)
17:03:32 <fizzie> Incidentally, I gave some thought on turning the visualizations into client-side d3.js-or-something stuff, because that would allow the "shows only top 7 programs because it would look messy otherwise" plots to be sufficiently interactive to have a program-select-o-tron.
17:05:14 <fizzie> Also I did one of the least useful things imaginable, and switched out the protocol spoken by the 'gearlanced' binary that does the "manage a hill with minimal re-parsing/-compilation of programs" thing.
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17:20:56 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter (version 0 beta).
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17:27:46 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter (version 0 beta).
17:28:26 <oren_> So how does arabic fonts even work?
17:29:15 <oren_> Does it simply display Alif at the start of a word by looking up the glyph for initial taf?
17:29:20 <oren_> Does it simply display Alif at the start of a word by looking up the glyph for initial alif?
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17:29:55 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter (version 0 beta).
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17:30:25 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter (version 0 beta).
17:30:43 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter commands: bf (not implemented)
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17:30:47 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter commands: bf (not implemented)
17:30:54 <virgobot> Virgo Interpreter commands: bf (not implemented)
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17:32:42 <izabera> what version was it anyway?
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18:04:44 <oren_> ᴬᴭᴮᴯᴰᴱᴲᴳᴴᴵᴶᴷᴸᴹᴺᴻᴼᴽᴾᴿᵀᵁᵂᵃᵄᵅᵆᵇᵈᵉᵊᵋᵌᵍᵎᵏᵐᵑᵒᵓᵔᵕᵖᵗᵘᵙᵚᵛᵜᵝᵞᵟᵠᵡ
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21:13:55 <hppavilion[1]_> @tell fuinho_doido I have no clue what kind of search that is. Why did you ask me?
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22:19:48 <oren_> I added charatcers like ﺱﺲﺳﺴﺵﺶﺷﺸﺹﺺﺻﺼﺽﺾﺿﻀﻁﻂﻃﻄﻅﻆﻇﻈ
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22:25:23 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: since ordinary rings are distributive, i think walrusian rings should be hoarding hth
22:30:08 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: There will be various things in Walrusian Mathematics. Walrusians love strange things.
22:32:40 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
22:32:44 <shachaf> i was going to ask oerjan about the new canon
22:33:56 <oerjan> i haven't got past the introduction yet, i was already ridiculously backlogged with my common websites and i seem to have redeveloped an addiction to tatham's loopy
22:34:30 <oerjan> so don't expect me to read it very speedily
22:35:32 <shachaf> hmm, tatham was the person with cross-platform games, right?
22:35:38 <oerjan> i've just got to the part where he explains clearly and elaborately that it's not in greyscale for any price reasons
22:35:41 <shachaf> which he wrote in c or something and compiled to javascript?
22:35:59 <oerjan> shachaf: yeah there's a ton of backends
22:35:59 <shachaf> why would you read the text that isn't surrounded by pictures tdnh
22:37:00 <zzo38> You might also compile C codes into native codes; if the source-codes are provided you can try to compile into whatever
22:37:56 <shachaf> the orange county police department is making you do it?
22:37:56 <hppavilion[1]> Strings? Done already. Numbers? That was the first one.
22:38:14 <shachaf> oerjan: did you play Velocity Raptor?
22:38:17 <shachaf> http://www.testtubegames.com/velocityraptor.html
22:38:55 <zzo38> I have invented QUACKVM to do some cross-platform Minesweeper and some other game stuff, but currently the only implementation is in C and might work only on Linux with xterm; you can make up your own implementation for others if you want to; all of it is public domain
22:39:54 <zzo38> If you can think of how to make Elemental Algebra then you can try and see if it work please.
22:40:19 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm looking for something interesting to base an algebra on
22:41:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i think i shall pass
22:41:30 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I cannot think of it right now, but in past I might have done.
22:41:31 <shachaf> the only thing that reminded me of that game is that you get the point after n levels but there are n+k levels
22:41:41 <zzo38> (And possibly in future I can remember too)
22:41:41 <shachaf> and for completionist reasons i played the whole thing, and it was scow
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22:42:04 <oerjan> zzo38: there are native backends too
22:42:49 <zzo38> oerjan: Yes, if there are just the C library that does it, use the header file and then it can do, look like another way too.
22:44:51 <oerjan> there's a middle-end, and you can make frontends (new games) or backends for it
22:45:22 <Virgolang> to use it, /msg virgolang &py <code>
22:47:15 <zzo38> Shut it off yourself then if they won't
22:47:53 <oerjan> i see hppavilion[1] doesn't believe in Virgolang's sandboxing skills
22:48:36 <zzo38> You could easily test it though, and then see if it work or not.
22:49:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well no one's managed to break HackEgo irrevocably yet
22:49:10 <lambdabot> KOAK 072153Z 29008KT 10SM FEW250 32/07 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP115 T03170072
22:49:52 <oerjan> although i think i once accidentally froze it
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22:51:31 <oerjan> and lambdabot is also sandboxed, after all the haskell exploits we found in the last year
22:51:55 <oerjan> (it used to try to depend on haskell's type safety)
22:52:18 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
22:52:33 <oerjan> int-e: why doesn't it say which ghc version it uses tdnh
22:52:47 <oerjan> also why are you idle so early in the night
22:52:56 <hppavilion[1]> We could try to invent an esoteric algebra which is based on something esoteric for use in languages
22:53:28 <oerjan> we should have had oklopol here, he used to talk about weird algebras like loops
22:53:48 <oerjan> oklopol: you're not secretly here, are you?
22:54:41 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the question here quickly becomes whether you want something that can actually be sensibly and logically implemented, or something that's pure imaginary fantasy
22:55:10 <oerjan> i think that rules out people hth
22:56:43 <hppavilion[1]> What should the elements of the ring/rig/rng/whatever that the Algebra implements be?
22:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> Probably already been done. Shit I'm overusing vertical space
23:04:09 <hppavilion[1]> So... an algebra for parsing the same way Kleene Algebra is the algebra for lexing?
23:15:07 <oerjan> @tell bender| <bender|> are objects on stack in underload strings? <-- nominally, although that's not necessarily the most efficient implementation
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23:56:50 <lambdabot> hoogle <expr>. Haskell API Search for either names, or types.
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00:11:29 <oerjan> oh dear. maybe agatha won't need that party anyway.
00:17:14 <oerjan> also, her complete lack of poker face just has to come back and hurt her.
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00:53:14 <zzo38> It is possible to play poker without poker faced too
00:53:34 <shachaf> zzo38: Aren't you by definition poker faced when you play poker?
00:54:20 <zzo38> It was supposed to be (which is why it is called "poker faced") but it turns out not to be.
00:59:29 <zzo38> I am now inventing a Panel de Pon game on QUACKVM, but it is a bit more enhanced than other game. However the only mode is the puzzle-mode it doesn't have the other game mode
01:02:06 <zzo38> Do you like Panel de Pon game?
01:08:37 <zzo38> (I happen to like the Pokemon version, it is better than the original, in my opinion)
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01:26:18 <doesthiswork> what about it makes it better (in your opinion)?
01:26:48 <zzo38> There are more options and game modes
01:29:30 <doesthiswork> I'm looking at the guides to Pokemon puzzle league on gamefaqs so I understand
01:30:25 <zzo38> There are also some secret options, including one to allow 6 digits of the score; I don't know why that is even an option instead of always being 6 digits
01:31:38 <zzo38> And, it does work on black&white GameBoy even though it says it doesn't
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01:56:22 <zzo38> Which one were you trying to not miss?
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01:58:43 <tswett> Okay, here's an esolang.
01:59:33 <tswett> Memory is an array of numbers, initially the program source, followed by infinitely many zeros.
01:59:43 <tswett> Execution consists of doing the following forever.
01:59:55 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]_> @tell fuinho_doido I have no clue what kind of search that is. Why did you ask me? <-- note that lambdabot isn't very reliable unless you know the other person is a regular in a channel with it
02:00:16 <zzo38> Doing the following which is what?
02:00:18 <tswett> First, let x, y, and z be the values at the first three memory positions. Second, shift everything in memory three cells to the left. Third, copy z numbers from address x to address y.
02:00:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: there's MemoServ which is a network-wide thing
02:00:40 <tswett> Cale, I think... maybe?
02:00:47 <oerjan> for that, they need to be registered, though
02:01:42 <zzo38> tswett: OK. Is there any I/O operation?
02:02:01 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: int-e is the current maintainer. the bot is more than 10 years old, though.
02:02:41 <oerjan> huh that's eerily close, it was registered august 31 2005
02:02:51 <tswett> There's also no way to halt.
02:03:28 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the features were made by lots of people, and are of varying quality.
02:04:09 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
02:04:49 <oerjan> i think technically int-e is not the repo owner
02:05:35 <oerjan> oh hm it's apparently equal status now
02:06:46 <oerjan> i have a small ancestral part, in the @unlambda implementation
02:07:10 <oerjan> i didn't put it into lambdabot, someone else adapted my code
02:07:51 <zzo38> I have made up a IRC bot in C which uses SQLite
02:08:16 <zzo38> If there are no triggers in the database then it will just log the messages it receives, but you can add triggers and views and other stuff to make it to a lot more of stuff too.
02:09:52 <oerjan> tswett: i think your esolang cannot be TC since there's always a bound on the numbers
02:09:55 <zzo38> It does provide SQL function for sending the stuff back to the server, so you can use that within a trigger-program in order to allow it to reply. It also provides a collation for comparing IRC nicknames with ISO 646, so that can also be used
02:10:03 <tswett> oerjan: right, it's an FSM.
02:12:10 <tswett> That command is probably my greatest accomplishment ever.
02:14:42 <tswett> Well, can you automatically turn the string "hello world" into "-h_e-l_l-o_ -w_o-r_l-d"?
02:14:47 <tswett> Because that's essentially what this is doing.
02:15:11 <oerjan> tswett: i'm pretty sure /// is a greater accomplishment than that hth
02:16:10 <zzo38> I have thought of using NS SET PROPERTY to implement polls
02:17:35 <zzo38> Another way is RDF survey.
02:18:37 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, when a user leaves, it rather annoyingly mourns their "death" on command
02:19:40 <zzo38> But, it is your choice to implement whatever you like to implement
02:19:46 <oerjan> well that would save you from having to implement a separate _banme feature, i guess.
02:22:10 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, I lack a server on which to host my bot xD
02:24:20 <zzo38> My brother has ask whether or not my new character is allowed to sleep upsidedown but then in order to figure out I had to ask a few other questions to him but he does not know the answer therefore I don't know either. If I asked the other questions in order to figure out maybe would you know?
02:25:15 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ oerjan \ paste \ people.p
02:25:28 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access Complaints/: Not a directory
02:25:51 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:26:03 <zzo38> ``` ls -l Complaints
02:26:04 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Jun 9 16:23 Complaints
02:26:42 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `Complaints/001.txt': Not a directory
02:26:56 <zzo38> It is not a directory, you can't do like that
02:27:17 <zzo38> It says on the ls -l how the file is
02:27:55 <HackEgo> touch: cannot touch `Complaints/001.txt': Not a directory
02:28:15 <tswett> Complaints is an empty file, not an empty directory, so it can't contain files.
02:29:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprists: not found
02:29:27 <HackEgo> int-e mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
02:30:04 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
02:30:33 <hppavilion[1]> I assumed it was a directory given, you know, the lack of FILE EXTENSION
02:30:36 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/Complaints
02:33:46 <oerjan> ah it used to be lower case.
02:34:11 <oerjan> (also it used to be a link)
02:38:06 <tswett> It's reeeeeally common for Unix people not to bother giving files extensions.
02:38:21 <HackEgo> :-(: UTF-8 Unicode text \ 0: ASCII text \ 113500: ASCII text, with very long lines, with CRLF line terminators \ a: ASCII text \ a.o: ELF 64-bit LSB relocatable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped \ a.out: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SY
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03:15:43 <hppavilion[1]> `complain Complaints file lacks file extension making it look like a directory. Which is confusing
03:15:46 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
03:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> `cat "print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint failed. Thank you." > bin/complain
03:17:05 <HackEgo> cat: "print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint failed. Thank you." > bin/complain: No such file or directory
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03:17:25 <hppavilion[1]> `echo "print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint failed. Thank you." > bin/complain
03:17:26 <HackEgo> "print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint failed. Thank you." > bin/complain
03:17:35 <HackEgo> cat: bin/complai: No such file or directory
03:17:37 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
03:19:03 <zzo38> It is not wrong for a filename to not have extension.
03:19:10 <zzo38> On DOS it can be problem but this is UNIX
03:21:43 <HackEgo> bash: Complaints: command not found
03:21:44 <zzo38> There is option though to make ls to put / after the directory name or to use different colors for directories
03:22:21 <zzo38> I think it commonly is in the shell.
03:22:34 <zzo38> (Even in DOS it displays directories differently actually, so not problem much with DOS either)
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03:29:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: weather: not found
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03:39:14 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
03:39:18 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
03:39:39 <zzo38> If you want weather then the command is @metar I think
03:39:53 <lambdabot> CYVR 080300Z 14004KT 20SM BKN053 OVC062 17/10 A3015 RMK SC5SC3 SLP210
03:41:09 <zzo38> If you mean QUACKVM then yes, otherwise no
03:41:42 <zzo38> (Other people can implement it too though, or write programs for it, or compilers for it; it is public domain; but I am mainly.)
03:42:49 <hppavilion[1]> I've added Registry, Arithmetical, Trigonometric, IO, and Branching to mine, totalling at 37 instructions
03:43:59 <zzo38> See the documentation if you want to know, but I can list them now here: ADD, SUB, MUL, DIV, MOD, AND, OR, XOR, LOAD/SAVE, TIME, COLOR, LOCATE, INPUT, PRINT, GET, PUT, PUSH, POP, UNHUFF, PRINTT, PRINTN, PRINTC, CLS, COPYT, WRITE, CALL, QUIT/RESTART, SOUND, RANDOM, LONGCALC, INTBL, EXTOP.
03:44:20 <zzo38> The instruction set is frozen; none will be added.
03:45:01 <zzo38> (Note that LOAD/SAVE are the same opcode, QUIT/RESTART are also the same opcode. Also there are 32 opcodes; that is all that fits.)
03:45:47 <zzo38> Well, this one uses 16-bit memory cells. There are no separate registers; even the program counter is memory-mapped.
03:46:49 <zzo38> The assembler provides GOTO, RETURN, DEC, and INC instructions, but all of those are just built-in macros, not actual instructions.
03:48:30 <zzo38> The instruction byte contains the 5-bit opcode, 3-bits per operand (there are three operands), and then one bit tells it that it has a predicate branch and one more bit tells it that it should store its result.
03:48:47 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of the Mill architecture?
03:48:56 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know.
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03:50:08 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: That can work.
03:50:30 <zzo38> QUACKVM binaries consist of a series of banks, where each bank starts with the bank size.
03:50:42 <zzo38> But if you don't need banks then just plain binary data works.
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03:51:52 <trout> hppavilion[1]: hi!
03:52:11 * trout wonders what happens if he tries hppavilion[2] or hppavilion[-1]
03:52:15 <trout> hppavilion[1]: depends on the format
03:52:28 <trout> now a bit about html, and random archive formats
03:52:30 <zzo38> The instructions in my system are do more than one thing, such as ADD will add together the first two operands and that will be the result, and then the predicate succeeds if the result is greater than the value of the third operand.
03:52:31 <trout> nothing about images
03:53:10 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[-1] returns the same as hppavilion[1] as hppavilion is a 1-item list and uses pythonic list comprehension
03:53:40 <zzo38> (You can ignore the result and/or the predicate due to the instruction encoding; you can even ignore both but that isn't so useful, but it does allow an instruction byte with a value of zero to mean no operation.)
03:54:41 <trout> hppavilion[1]: oh, I thought it was a C style pointer
03:55:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's equivalent to hppavilion.get(1), assuming get gets an item from a list
03:56:58 <zzo38> My VM supports two files for each program, the ROM file and the disk file (optional); currently only the Minesweeper game uses the disk file (to store game statistics), and it will check if it does not exist and still work correctly without it.
03:57:41 <zzo38> (Both files have the same format, although bank numbering in the ROM file starts at 0 and goes up, while the bank numbering in the disk file starts at -1 and goes down.)
04:00:56 <zzo38> The instruction set and assembler syntax resemble the Z-machine just a little bit.
04:04:15 <zzo38> However I also wanted to know your opinions about the draft of the document of SOUND and EXTOP commands since those currently are draft. Even if they can be as is, their implementation is remain to be optional
04:12:50 <zzo38> Yes, except the SOUND and EXTOP which aren't even implemented yet. Those instructions are still SOUND and EXTOP, although some details about their semantics are only draft so far
04:13:01 <oren_> should I add devanagari?
04:13:21 <zzo38> Also it is possible in future that further input devices for use with INPUT command might be added, although their implementation will be optional; only device 1 is required
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04:18:19 <zzo38> Also EXTOP can be used to define extensions; the number of extensions is unlimited.
04:20:49 <hppavilion[1]> If only I could defer the document to someone else xD
04:23:04 <zzo38> If you post a copy of document to public then anyone could try to implement
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04:44:13 <zzo38> Manually compiling what file?
04:52:46 <hppavilion[1]> It was to demonstrate the... unique behavior of SET in my assembly language to my friends
04:53:00 <zzo38> How does the instructions work and what is the unique behavior of SET in your assembly language?
04:55:02 <hppavilion[1]> The instructions are each 2 bytes, followed by a 1 byte arglength indicator, followed by n 8-byte args where n is the ord() of the arglength
04:56:26 <zzo38> Can you have different formats of arguments?
04:57:16 <hppavilion[1]> Later editions of Taurus may allow bytes or 16 bit or 32 bit arguments
04:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> Can you tell I don't know much about low-level programming? xD
04:57:51 <zzo38> I mean also though non-constant values and indirection and so on
04:58:37 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm pretty sure that's all you need to do infinite registry reference nesting
05:00:06 <hppavilion[1]> Only registries that get referenced are actually stored in memory
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05:13:40 <zzo38> Can a claw on a bat's feet that can be use for sleeping upsidedown to prevent it from being used like a humanoid feet under the assumption that you do not need to walk faster than ten inches per second (by which I mean not running, flying, swimming, climbing, riding in an elevator, or whatever)?
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05:17:11 <zzo38> Is the experiment needed to figure out, or only the question?
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05:43:21 <hppavilion[1]> That interprets the language by self-modifying its interpreter until its form is that of the language it's interpreting intstead of the language it's made in
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06:00:34 <mauris> yes, it was emmental -> underload
06:00:45 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Emmental#Computability_class
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06:52:26 <zzo38> In some variants of INTERCAL there is COME FROM and NEXT FROM, as well as FORGET, and BASIC allows return to optionally specify what line to return to instead of necessarily returning to where it is called from
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07:56:47 <zzo38> Do you like this? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/spell
08:15:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44107 * Jabutosama * (+2577) Created page with "'''J-why''', orginated from sentence ''Just why'', is an esoteric functional program idea which is meant to be as stupid, hard and annoying to program as possible, yet still k..."
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11:40:09 <int-e> @tell oerjan "i think technically int-e is not the repo owner" <-- the repo owner is a github organization of which I'm a member
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12:11:16 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
12:11:25 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
12:11:30 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
12:11:39 <lambdabot> eval provides: run let define letlpaste undefine
12:12:01 <lambdabot> poll provides: poll-list poll-show poll-add choice-add vote poll-result poll-close poll-remove
12:12:09 <lambdabot> ["dictator-for-life","should-lambdabot-be-more-polite"]
12:12:38 <Virgolang> @poll-show should-lambdabot-be-more-polite
12:12:53 <Virgolang> @choice-add should-lambdabot-be-more-polite yes
12:12:53 <lambdabot> New candidate "yes", added to poll "should-lambdabot-be-more-polite".
12:13:07 <Virgolang> @poll-result should-lambdabot-be-more-polite
12:13:07 <lambdabot> Poll results for should-lambdabot-be-more-polite (Closed): yes=0, maybe=6, no=13, yes=8
12:14:30 <b_jonas> @poll-vote should-lambdabot-be-more-polite yes
12:14:33 <b_jonas> @poll-vote should-lambdabot-be-more-polite no
12:14:43 <b_jonas> @vote should-lambdabot-be-more-polite no
12:14:43 <lambdabot> The "should-lambdabot-be-more-polite" poll is closed, sorry !
12:14:59 <b_jonas> @poll-show dictator-for-life
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12:45:17 <athenabot> Output: [NON EXISTENT CHARACTER: 0]
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12:50:54 <myname> ath.bf ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.
12:51:28 <myname> how the hell did you get here?
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12:52:35 <myname> ath.bf ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.++++.
12:52:59 <Virgoxx> i will make an bf interpreter
12:53:14 <myname> there are already like a dozen of them
12:53:20 <glauxosdever> I know someone that has created a bot that handles esoteric languages (athenabot), so I sent it here.
12:53:25 <myname> we even need to make one at university
12:54:08 <glauxosdever> ath.bf ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.++++.-.++++++++++++++++
12:54:11 <glauxosdever> ath.bf ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.++++.-.++++++++++++++++.
12:54:17 <glauxosdever> ath.bf ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.++++.-.++++++++++++++++.-
12:54:20 <glauxosdever> ath.bf ++++++[>+++++++++++<-]>.++++.-.++++++++++++++++.-.
12:54:38 <myname> what it basically does is 6*11 which is B
12:54:54 <myname> welö, i don't see how java is useful
12:55:05 <fizzie> Dozen seems like a low estimate.
12:56:07 <glauxosdever> I don't know about java. C and Python are really useful, and Assembly for low level system programming.
12:56:55 <myname> well, they all can do nothing more than bf can
12:58:33 <glauxosdever> Can bf read from and write to individual registers? Maybe to ports? Can it read/save files?
12:59:12 <myname> oif you write an os in it, sure thing
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13:29:50 <lambdabot> int-e said 1h 49m 41s ago: "i think technically int-e is not the repo owner" <-- the repo owner is a github organization of which I'm a member
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14:08:36 <zemhill> ChironBeta: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
14:08:36 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
14:08:51 <zemhill> ChironBeta: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
14:09:12 <fizzie> That's not what you want if you want to register a nickname.
14:09:17 <fizzie> https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#userregistration would be more like it.
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15:02:13 <zzo38> Do you know answer of any of my previously questions?
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15:08:57 <b_jonas> there's one about http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/spell
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15:11:16 <b_jonas> "Swap two ability scores of the target." -- That's a bit scary, that can instakill by swapping Con with a zero Str. When it doesn't instakill, how permanent is it?
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15:12:41 <b_jonas> "Link two objects so that whatever is written on one (including pictures) is duplicated on the other; does not duplicate magical properties." -- for how long are they linked? permanently?
15:14:46 <b_jonas> "Delay a spell so that it starts as soon as another spell ends" -- how would this work excatly? could be good, but needs more details.
15:15:17 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
15:15:54 <b_jonas> "Detect the weight and volume of an object in range without touching it." -- hmm, is this something you almost never cast, and learn the spell only to craft magical weight scales that non-caster farmers can then use on a market to sell their products?
15:16:01 <zzo38> Maybe the saving throw of swapping ability score is increase by their difference, or only affect willing targets, or only affect the caster, or whatever.
15:16:04 <b_jonas> "Increase target's carrying capacity without otherwise affecting the
15:16:47 <b_jonas> strength or size or weight of the target." -- hmm, can it bring a very strong monster past its maximum carrying capacity? or does it work only on weak monsters, such as yourself as a caster?
15:17:14 <b_jonas> Wait, does this even target a monster, or an item instead, like a BoH?
15:17:33 <zzo38> It only increases carrying capacity so it cannot bring anyone past their maximum, unless they carry too much stuff before the spell expires
15:18:03 <b_jonas> "Heal hit points up to the next Fibonacci number." -- shouldn't that be the second next fibonacci number instead, so it heals a lot even when the hp is a bit less than a fibonacci number? and what does it do exactly for hp=1 or for non-positive hp?
15:18:30 <Taneb> Aaaah what's the topos of trees
15:18:38 <Taneb> What bit of maths is that from,
15:18:43 <zzo38> For HP 1 or less it would do nothing I suppose maybe?
15:19:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: I mean, can it increase you past the hard cap of carrying capacity that you'd get if you were a very strong monster? Nethack has such a hard cap of 1000 weight units, no matter what type of monster or how strong you are, but maybe D&D doesn't.
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15:19:43 <b_jonas> Eg. if the target is already of strength 30 and is a beast of burden with a special ability to have extra carrying capacity when the stuff is on their saddle, does it still increase their carrying cap?
15:20:08 <zzo38> As far as I know D&D doesn't, so yes it may increase carrying capacity beyond whatever, I think
15:20:36 <b_jonas> "Cause a circular area of the ground to rotate." -- sounds good, but for how long duration? how deep does it go? can I use this to burst water pipes in a building?
15:21:06 <b_jonas> "Make any spell language-dependent." -- what does that mean?
15:21:41 <b_jonas> "Penalize target for any magic they are using." -- sure, that can work if you balance it right.
15:21:54 <b_jonas> wait, any magic, not only spells?
15:22:06 <zzo38> Those are good question, some details I don't know (including the spell level) so I didn't mention them.
15:22:32 <zzo38> But I would expect most durations aren't very long (you could use metamagic to extend them), but some might last longer
15:22:32 <b_jonas> "Automatically alphabetize the pages of a book." -- um, one page as a unit, or can it move entries around within a page too?
15:23:14 <b_jonas> Wait, I have a non-D&D question related to that
15:23:28 <b_jonas> http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/95289/4918
15:24:33 <zzo38> "Make any spell language-dependent" would mean you can make up a language-dependent fireball so that it does not damage those who do not speak your language, was my idea
15:24:47 <b_jonas> "Use one spell to determine which of two other spells to apply." -- as in a low-leve divination spell? sure, could work
15:25:19 <b_jonas> ah! can it work the other way, damaging only those who don't speak that language?
15:25:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, language-dependent doesn't work that way, unless you apply language-dependency to a protection spell instead and then cast the damaging spell as normal.
15:27:04 <b_jonas> you can try to use this language-dependent fireball to fry elven spies who speak elven, with some false positives. would cull cultural diversity quickly if it spreaded.
15:27:13 <b_jonas> but yes, it's a good idea.
15:27:58 <b_jonas> "Suppress a spell during even-numbered rounds of its duration." -- oh no, phasing!
15:28:52 <b_jonas> "Delay a spell according to weight or hit points of target." -- um what? this coudl mean anything, just like that other delay thing.
15:29:04 <b_jonas> "Create an extra timelike dimension." -- um... I don't see how that would work
15:29:20 <b_jonas> "Change an effect that normally has a minimum of 1 or 0 to instead have
15:29:36 <b_jonas> no minimum (e.g. 3 damage with DR 5 heals you 2 points)." -- no way. not without some very strong limits enumerating on what it can do. otherwise this can break everything.
15:29:42 <zzo38> Well, I do not see how "Create an extra timelike dimension" would work either; that one is just strange
15:30:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: My limits in my mind were a 9th-level spell that affects only one thing one time, but maybe that isn't enough I don't know
15:31:16 <b_jonas> like, it will allow you to summon -100 fiendish wolves with a Summon Monster II spell
15:32:32 <zzo38> Summon Monster II doesn't seem to work that way
15:33:08 <zzo38> It doesn't allow you to select how many
15:33:15 <b_jonas> I mean, that spell is basically like Look at Me, I'm R&D, which is something you can never allow outside silver bordered land
15:33:48 <zzo38> Also I didn't intend it would affect any number you choose anyways; only calculated results can be affected.
15:33:56 <myname> https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch awesome
15:34:16 <b_jonas> Then it's like that hypothetical card that removes a word from a card, which was too scary to even be silver-bordered.
15:34:23 <b_jonas> From the text of a card that is.
15:34:28 <b_jonas> Or a sentence or something.
15:35:06 <b_jonas> "Detect if an item is a suitable component for a spell." -- sure, good idea
15:35:11 <b_jonas> we always need more divination spells
15:35:25 <b_jonas> "Variant of True Seeing: Simply view things as if all magic was absent." -- um... I dunno
15:35:46 <zzo38> At least my brother, as well as the DM of the game I am in, likes that variant of True Seeing
15:36:02 <b_jonas> "Make a single dice roll in advance." -- hmm, isn't that basically like a re-roll one dice ability, just a bit better?
15:36:25 <b_jonas> Ok, maybe not, because it doesn't easily let you re-roll multiple dice that are rolled together.
15:36:44 <b_jonas> "Feign invisibility." -- what is that? an SEP field?
15:36:48 <zzo38> Sometimes it is better, sometimes worse, I suppose.
15:36:55 <zzo38> I don't even know what "SEP field" means?
15:37:09 <b_jonas> as in the Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy
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15:37:53 <int-e> I don't know what SEP means; luckily it's somebody else's problem
15:38:07 <b_jonas> "Create a map of the area (only fixed features)." -- magic mapping, sure
15:38:20 <zzo38> myname: Thank you I didn't know that! I don't really need such thing but it can be helpful to know how these footpedal are hacked to be programmed for released
15:38:32 <b_jonas> "Change an object into its mirror-image form." -- uh, is this a spell that requires biochemistry knowledge to DM or something?
15:38:57 <int-e> b_jonas: anitmatter takes care of itself quickly
15:39:07 <zzo38> Actually I wrote some draft like that once and it said it explicitly does not affect biochemistry or antimatter or whatever.
15:39:08 <b_jonas> "Make any surface into a mirror." -- ok
15:39:21 <b_jonas> as long as it's some ordinary cheap mirror, not a very valuable one
15:39:35 <int-e> b_jonas: heh, can that be used to blind monsters?
15:39:45 <zzo38> Yes, an ordinary cheap mirror.
15:40:02 <b_jonas> int-e: probably no, you can't target them
15:40:04 <int-e> (turning the surface of their eyes into a mirror
15:40:23 <zzo38> No you can't do that you have to target unattended object or your own object
15:40:34 <b_jonas> int-e: no, that'd be similar to targetting an item in their inventoyr, it's banned for normal magic that targets object, except when explicitly written.
15:41:26 <b_jonas> "Force target to decide his action in advance." -- oh, can work, as long as it doesn't last very long
15:42:23 <b_jonas> "Redirect damage from summoned creatures to yourself." -- sure, at least if you have to cast this when they're not very far from you, like within your visual range
15:43:09 <b_jonas> "Apply metamagic to opponent's spell." -- ugh... I'm not sure. this would have to restrict what kind of metamagic, at which point it's better to have separate spells for slowing down an opponent's spell, delaying it, reducing its effect, etc.
15:43:38 <b_jonas> "Save part of the duration of a spell for later." -- could work, at least in most cases.
15:44:02 <b_jonas> but only if it requires you to still hold that spell slot as used as long as you're saving the spell
15:44:17 <b_jonas> otherwise you could delay spells for a year and then discharge them all in a battle
15:44:25 <b_jonas> Gain a temporary slot prepared with the spell that would be the least
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15:44:38 <zzo38> Yes you have to still hold the slot and there would be a limited amount too, you can't save it indefinitely!
15:44:43 <b_jonas> useful one in the current situation. -- um... that sounds very useless, but ok
15:45:23 <b_jonas> Wait, why'd you ever cast that, instead of just preparing or casting a useless spell to that slot?
15:45:25 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is a kind of divination, so not too useless. And even if they think it is the least useful one, you could figure out how to use it anyways...
15:46:17 <b_jonas> I'd just prepare some other mostly useless spell instead.
15:46:23 <b_jonas> I don't see what I'd lose.
15:47:01 <b_jonas> "Change one gem into another of equal value." -- a restricted transmutation on items? sure!
15:47:11 <b_jonas> but needs some limits on the quantity probably
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15:48:06 <zzo38> Yes clearly does have limit on quantity, like most spells would have.
15:48:36 <b_jonas> "Cause target to believe he is your parent." -- what? a Darth Vader spell?
15:49:33 <b_jonas> "Create coloured water (functions like normal water)." -- um, if this didn't exist, couldn't you just use prestidigitation to create those kinds of paints they use to debug where the cooling liquid pipes of a car is leaking?
15:49:51 <b_jonas> but ok, it could work as a spell
15:49:59 <zzo38> Prestidigitation may make it temporary I think
15:50:06 <b_jonas> it's just that I think those paints are very cheap so it's not worth a spell slot
15:50:24 <b_jonas> you need it for up to a few days, until you've debugged the problem
15:50:45 <b_jonas> if it's temporary, you won't have stains remaining on the insides of the car
15:51:17 <b_jonas> But you could make a more powerful variant:
15:51:23 <zzo38> Yes, but this isn't to do pipes in the car, there isn't the such thing in this game. It is so you can do in the time of just one spell to create it work colours
15:52:19 <b_jonas> mark water or oil in such a way that it's not colored or radioactive or changed in its function, but you can still detect it with some magical means easily.
15:52:45 <zzo38> That isn't my intention though
15:53:02 <b_jonas> That would be useful for doctors, because they could apply it more easily than the current methods which generally require radioactivity or other markers.
15:53:12 <b_jonas> And the level could depend on how detailed image you can get.
15:53:35 <b_jonas> Eg. to get something like a high-powered MR image with contrast material, you'd need a high-level detection spell.
15:54:10 <b_jonas> But to just find in which of two bays the underground river flows into, you'd need a lower level detection spell.
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16:03:28 <zzo38> One example of apply metamagic to opponent's spell might be to extend the duration of an opponent's spell without their knowledge
16:03:59 <zzo38> (But it isn't limited to opponent's either; you can use with other spellcaster on your team too)
16:06:37 <zzo38> One example of causing one spell to start when another one ends might be, that Drawmij's Instant Summons is discharged when you summon an item so that can trigger another spell, or Explosive Runes will be discharged when the runes exploded, or Invisibility ends once all targets of the spell have attacked, etc
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16:09:43 <zzo38> (It also doesn't work if the spell used to cause this delay expires before the other one does.)
16:10:51 <zzo38> Also some spells have random durations so it could be affected by that too
16:11:27 <zzo38> Can you answer my other questions though before I posted that list of spell?
16:12:07 <b_jonas> What were your other questions?
16:12:50 <zzo38> See in the log what it was
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16:13:51 <zzo38> Maybe I will find and copy it, let me see
16:13:51 <b_jonas> "Can a claw on a bat's feet that can be use for sleeping upsidedown to prevent it from being used like a humanoid feet under the assumption that you do not need to walk faster than ten inches per second (by which I mean not running, flying, swimming, climbing, riding in an elevator, or whatever)?"
16:13:58 <zzo38> Yes that is one of them
16:15:01 <b_jonas> I didn't see any other question.
16:15:38 <zzo38> O, I hoped someone would know this answer (but I did also post another question, is the experiment required?)
16:15:44 <zzo38> Although I did post many other questions
16:18:16 <zzo38> But my brother did not know the answer either; he asked me a question and I replied with another question in order to guess the answer
16:21:29 <zzo38> How would you make such an experiment anyways?
16:30:42 <zzo38> But my other (unrelated) question was if you have any objections to the definition of SOUND and EXTOP opcodes of QUACKVM before they are made finalized.
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17:15:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Whirl]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44108&oldid=36815 * 94.62.69.164 * (-110)
17:16:47 <zzo38> Who does know these questions?
17:19:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CHIQRSX9+]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44109&oldid=40694 * 94.62.69.164 * (+16) /* Examples */
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18:05:42 <Sgeo__> "Do I see the moon shining?" "No, it's just the flames burning"
18:07:11 <Sgeo__> Why does a Sonic the Hedgehog fanfic contain an extended Evillious Chronicles scene?
18:07:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:09:15 <Sgeo__> Oh apparently it's a character listening to a song
18:09:31 <Sgeo__> https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7427632/3/Xanovias
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18:28:09 <int-e> the roof, the roof, the roof is on fire...
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18:51:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: QUACKVM? where's the draft for that?
18:54:07 <zzo38> b_jonas: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/quackvm.zip Most of it is finalized, although the documentation is not yet complete, and some details of SOUND and EXTOP are not finalized
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18:57:43 <zzo38> Do you have any other question/comment/opinions/complaints about such thing please?
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19:05:34 <HackEgo> olist 1003: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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19:06:27 <zzo38> And how can I possibly figure out the answer of my other question?
19:08:11 <zzo38> Is there such a file as FireFlist?
19:08:43 <nortti> `run echo 'echo FireFly Eldis4' > bin/FireFlist
19:08:58 <nortti> `chmod +x bin/FireFlist
19:08:59 <HackEgo> chmod: missing operand after `+x bin/FireFlist' \ Try `chmod --help' for more information.
19:09:04 <nortti> `run chmod +x bin/FireFlist
19:09:24 <ais523> huh, I saw the fireflist
19:09:32 <ais523> thought "ooh, I wonder if OOTS updated since I was last online"
19:09:36 <ais523> checked it, found it was only just posted
19:09:42 <ais523> then came to the channel to see if anyone had `olisted yet
19:09:47 <zzo38> In addition to `run there is also `` and ``` which are similar to `run
19:09:56 <shachaf> ais523: You could just add yourself to olist
19:10:00 <zzo38> ais523: Now you know!
19:10:05 <ais523> we've had this conversation before
19:10:07 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
19:10:10 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; exec bash -c "$@"
19:10:22 <shachaf> I don't remember the conclusion.
19:10:28 <ais523> I prefer to read OOTS on my own pace; however, I know that #esoteric cares about being notified ASAP
19:10:46 <ais523> so I see ensuring that `olists are posted in a timely way as being a service to everyone who's actually on the `olist
19:10:50 <ais523> whilst not caring if I myself am late
19:12:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: time: not found
19:12:08 <zzo38> Are most of my questions too difficult for anyone to answer (including myself)?
19:12:48 <zzo38> `` time echo hello
19:12:49 <HackEgo> real: 0m0.001s, user: 0m0.000s, sys: 0m0.000s \ hello
19:12:51 <FireFly> oh, wait, that'd be `` I guess
19:13:32 <fizzie> It's a special command, not a script.
19:13:39 <zzo38> The `run is a different command clearly
19:13:41 <fizzie> For some reason people just started using ``, which actually is bin/`.
19:13:42 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:13:54 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
19:14:02 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 65 Jun 21 02:47 bin/`
19:14:04 <zzo38> Yes, the `` changes the time output and ``` changes the locale
19:14:04 <ais523> I added `! for similar reasons
19:14:29 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
19:17:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: Did you read this?
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19:17:51 <zzo38> The document of the QUACKVM
19:18:06 <ais523> FireFly: `! is the entire original purpose of HackEgo
19:18:19 <ais523> it was intended so that we could add esolangs to it ourselves instead of having to bother Gregor
19:18:20 <zzo38> As you could see the documentation is currently incomplete.
19:18:33 <ais523> but HackEgo has mostly been used for quotes and "wisdom" (actually foolishness) and rainbow welcomes
19:18:45 <zzo38> (It also does not currently document the assembler, although you can look at the provided files for examples.)
19:19:05 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u
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19:57:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, I have questions
19:58:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: what I'm missing the most is describing what an instruction contains, eg. what its arguments can be, and what the basic instruction loop is
19:58:10 <b_jonas> it would be nice if you could tell that now
20:01:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, how the instructions are encoded, if they're stored in the writable memory
20:04:24 <b_jonas> whoa I'm looking at the answers for this in quackvm.c
20:04:34 <b_jonas> still, definitely document it because it matters
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20:31:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mourn: not found
20:32:38 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ blessyou \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ CoInS \ complain \ co
20:33:03 <hppavilion[1]> `echo "echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well" > bin/mourn
20:33:04 <HackEgo> "echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well" > bin/mourn
20:33:15 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
20:33:25 <hppavilion[1]> `bash "echo \"echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn
20:33:25 <HackEgo> bash: "echo \"echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn: No such file or directory
20:33:50 <hppavilion[1]> `bash "echo \"echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn
20:33:50 <HackEgo> bash: "echo \"echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn: No such file or directory
20:34:14 <b_jonas> Wtf, the godlike robot thingy can't even give ponies to Galatea? I don't think he's even that powerful.
20:34:33 <hppavilion[1]> `run "echo \"echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn
20:34:33 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:34:48 <hppavilion[1]> `run "echo \"echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\" > bin/mourn"
20:34:49 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:37:01 <hppavilion[1]> `run "echo \"echo \"Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\"\" > bin/mourn"
20:37:01 <HackEgo> bash: echo "echo "Alas, poor , I knew him well"" > bin/mourn: No such file or directory
20:37:16 <fizzie> Your outermost quotes are wrong.
20:37:37 <fizzie> Compare typing literally "something something whatever" in a shell; it's going to look for a command with that names.
20:37:54 <fizzie> And the second-level quotes do not need escaping.
20:38:08 <fizzie> `run echo "echo \"Alas, poor $@, I knew him well\""
20:38:08 <HackEgo> echo "Alas, poor , I knew him well"
20:38:16 <fizzie> `run echo "echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well\""
20:38:17 <HackEgo> echo "Alas, poor $@, I knew him well"
20:38:22 <fizzie> That is something you could now > to a file.
20:38:39 <fizzie> (Using single quotes would have been easier.)
20:39:10 <hppavilion[1]> `run "echo \"echo \\\"Alas, poor $@, I knew him well!\\\"\" > bin/mourn"
20:39:10 <HackEgo> bash: echo "echo \"Alas, poor , I knew him well!\"" > bin/mourn: No such file or directory
20:39:24 <fizzie> You keep going further.
20:39:35 <fizzie> `run echo "echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn
20:39:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/mourn: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/mourn: cannot execute: Permission denied
20:39:47 <fizzie> `run chmod +x bin/mourn
20:39:50 <HackEgo> Alas, poor whoever, I knew him well
20:40:35 <hppavilion[1]> `run echo "echo \"/me picks up a skull\";echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well!\"" > bin/mourn
20:40:41 <hppavilion[1]> `run echo "echo \"/me picks up a skull\";echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well!\"" > bin/mourn
20:40:49 <HackEgo> /me picks up a skull \ Alas, poor someone, I knew him well!
20:41:09 <hppavilion[1]> `run echo "echo \"echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well!\"" > bin/mourn
20:41:12 -!- x10A94 has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:41:19 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/mourn: line 1: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/mourn: line 2: syntax error: unexpected end of file
20:41:34 <hppavilion[1]> `run echo "echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well\"" > bin/mourn
20:41:41 <HackEgo> Alas, poor whoever, I knew him well
20:41:46 <hppavilion[1]> `run echo "echo \"Alas, poor \$@, I knew him well!\"" > bin/mourn
20:41:49 <b_jonas> Oh, he's casting that overpowered death spell that destroys a target without a limit on its hp or level.
20:41:55 <b_jonas> That's a very scary spell.
20:41:57 <HackEgo> Alas, poor whoever, I knew him well!
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20:53:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: misquote: not found
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20:59:31 <HackEgo> 591) <ais523\unfoog> Vorpal: your ability to randomly make obvious comments in IRC as if they were profound is not a particularly useful one
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21:10:00 <zzo38> b_jonas: OK, I was out but now I am on
21:11:30 <zzo38> Yes I will document it; as I said the documentation is incomplete.
21:13:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: my main problem with this thing is that the program counter is memory-mapped. I hate machines where that's done, because it makes it almost impossible to optimize this system, whether in software or hardware.
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21:14:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: This way, any indirect store can be a jump if the address is randomly zero, and any indirect load can load from the program counter, so you have to update it in memory before every indirect load, of which an instruction can have more than one.
21:15:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: Further, I don't think memory-mapping the instruction pointer even gives you any useful advantage in a non-eso language.
21:15:06 <zzo38> I do not want to complicate it with a lot of optimization and stuff. Most of the VM (including that part) is now frozen and will not be changed. The documentation isn't though, and some other details also might be changed before done
21:15:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: certainly, but this way an implementation can't optimize it either.
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21:15:52 <zzo38> Yes, that is true. Still that part won't be changed
21:16:06 <b_jonas> You could solve this by saying in the documentation that you're not allowed to store the instruction pointer with indirect stores, and that if you load it indirectly it will give an undefined value.
21:17:16 <zzo38> Programs already do use stuff like "PUT ,,X" to unconditionally jump to the label X (the included assembler provides a GOTO macro that compiles into this though)
21:18:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: why wouldn't you use the non-indirect instructions, ADD or OR for that instead?
21:18:30 <b_jonas> let's say OR for simplicity
21:18:34 <zzo38> The encoding ends up shorter with PUT, for one thing.
21:19:07 <b_jonas> anyway, minor comments if you can't change this
21:19:26 <zzo38> An implementation still could optimize it but it would have to be able to disable the optimization when such things like that occur.
21:19:28 <b_jonas> but document how the instruction format works anyway, because I wouldn't have guessed it from the docsw
21:19:38 <zzo38> Yes I am currently documenting that.
21:19:38 <b_jonas> heck, I wouldn't even have guessed that you have the isntructions mapped to the memory
21:19:45 <b_jonas> I thought they were in a separate code memory
21:20:29 <zzo38> Yes, OK I will mention that they are mapped in the same memory (self-modifying code is also possible)
21:21:10 <hppavilion[1]> Can we do "Part of a series on..." boxes on the Wiki?
21:21:23 <b_jonas> 2. in the docs for LOAD/SAVE, it's not clear what starting address in the memory the load/store uses.
21:21:47 <b_jonas> 3. in put, which operand are you writing? the second or the third?
21:22:11 <b_jonas> 4. in PRINTT, s/with any/without any/
21:22:12 <zzo38> Thank you for noticing that; it is the third.
21:22:40 <zzo38> I fixed that. (I will store them in the .zip after I finished fixing all of them)
21:23:19 <zzo38> The starting address for LOAD/SAVE is equal to the size of bank 0.
21:23:25 <b_jonas> 5. in PRINTC, the cursor move control codes you use seem to be strange, I thought they would be 8=move left, 10=move down, 11=move up, 12=move right
21:24:04 <b_jonas> 7. is there some reason why CLS is a separate instruction rather than a control code for PRINTC?
21:24:25 <zzo38> I don't know why I did that
21:24:53 <zzo38> But it is true that 10=move down; the documentation was wrong
21:25:24 <b_jonas> 8. It seems strange to me that you say the multiplication result of MUL isn't allowed to overflow an int16_t. I think you're just making arithmetic unnecessarily difficult with this. Would there be a drawback of making the result always modulo 65536?
21:26:13 <zzo38> Well, I do not see why it is so important that you would need to be able to do such multiplication, but OK.
21:26:41 <zzo38> I deleted that paragraph from the errors section now.
21:27:19 <b_jonas> 9. It might be too late for that, but I wondered why you don't have an arithmetic instruction for variable right shift (signed or unsigned, your choice if you document it).
21:27:34 <b_jonas> It seems to be missing from the instruction set. I know you have a division but still.
21:28:34 <zzo38> You are right I don't, you have to use division instead.
21:28:34 <b_jonas> 10. For SOUND, how can you tell where the packed code ends? Is there a length or terminating code somewhere? Or is it the sign bit of the 32-byte value of which six five-byte values are used?
21:28:58 <zzo38> It is the same as the text, which I have not documented.
21:29:08 <zzo38> It is the sign bit of each 16-bit cell though.
21:29:19 <hppavilion[1]> Or is that part of a plugin Esolangs doesn't have?
21:29:22 <b_jonas> I think you should mention that in the docs then
21:29:35 <hppavilion[1]> I mean like a box of links that you can expand at the bottom of an article
21:29:43 <zzo38> Yes I should add the section about the text packing
21:29:48 <zzo38> Currently it isn't documented
21:30:46 <b_jonas> Maybe you could put a right shift (and some bitwise ops) in the LONGCALC instruction instead.
21:31:02 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I don't know either, but it could be done with templates I think, no extra plugin is needed
21:32:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering creating an article or series of articles on time and space complexity
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21:33:48 <b_jonas> I'm not sure I understand all of the instruction encoding part of the code though.
21:34:18 <zzo38> Well, I am documenting that now
21:34:19 <b_jonas> It has eight addressing modes for the three input arguments each, plus some magic for both the condition code and the output.
21:37:17 <b_jonas> ah, so longcalc gives the low word of the result as the result, and optionally stores the high word
21:38:38 <zzo38> It stores both the low and high word optionally. I did not document LONGCALC yet (I have only partially done)
21:39:04 <b_jonas> "stores both the low and high word optionally" that's not what it looked like in the source but ok
21:39:58 <zzo38> You can't tell it to store only one; it stores both if told to do so.
21:44:01 <zzo38> And actually it is possible I might add a few more control codes into PRINTC to make bold on/off, but I don't expect to add anything more. (If the implementation doesn't support bold then the bold on/off codes do nothing)
21:44:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Complexity Classes]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44110 * Hppavilion1 * (+132) Created Page
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21:47:13 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um the complexity zoo is thataway
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22:11:00 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38, you're my goto (pun intended) user for annoying
22:14:12 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a GOTO, PASS THROUGH FROM, and COME FROM statement that must all be used together?
22:14:13 <zzo38> But then, there is also computed come from
22:15:06 <hppavilion[1]> But I'm looking for something new that could be considered good practice to use
22:16:02 <myname> i like setjmp and longjmp as control flow
22:18:02 <hppavilion[1]> But it'd work like that, but with the previous continuation from the last call/cc or call/pc instead
22:18:16 <hppavilion[1]> If it's the first caller in the program, it uses a blank continuation or something
22:18:21 <zzo38> Some programming languages have "arithmetic if".
22:18:34 <zzo38> I believe dc would be better if it used arithmetic if for control flow rather than what it currently uses
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22:20:31 <zzo38> I mean the branch target is decided based on whether the input is negative, zero, or positive.
22:22:38 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: what does HOWEVER do?
22:22:57 <hppavilion[1]> HOWEVER changes the environment, but just for the current instruction
22:23:18 <hppavilion[1]> The strong while loop (I don't know what it's called) which is a while loop
22:23:28 <hppavilion[1]> But it checks after EVERY statement if it should continue
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23:02:29 <zzo38> Have you done any complicated stuff in TeX?
23:05:45 <oerjan> just a phd thesis, nothing complicated...
23:07:31 <zzo38> I think someone has once made up a BASIC interpreter with TeX
23:09:50 <oren_> gVd EvniG! I hav invented yet unuDR iGgliS speliG reform pRpOsL!
23:10:16 <zzo38> I have not quite done that, but I have done other things in TeX, including sorting, date calculations (including calculate when is Easter and several other holidays), PBM parser, list manipulation, PGN parser, FEN parser, an imitation of having multiple classes of marks, POSTNET barcode generator, etc
23:10:45 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
23:10:48 <zzo38> TeX could do mail merge too without too much difficulty
23:11:18 * oerjan swats his keyboard -----###
23:11:38 <oren_> cRect! Dats exactlE rIt!
23:13:29 <oren_> I stil nEd tU docUment it DO...
23:14:37 <fizzie> oerjan: Was your thesis .tex file even TC?
23:15:18 <fizzie> I think the most complicated things in mine (TeXwise) are a few TikZ figures.
23:15:57 <oerjan> it wasn't even one file, i did some contortions with the page numbering scheme to keep the individual article parts separately compiled
23:16:42 <fizzie> This thing is singly compiled (with \input), and it even includes the articles in the resulting PDF. Part of the template.
23:18:00 <fizzie> You just \addpublication[]{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{}{} (it takes a lot of arguments) and it adds it to the publication list, the list of author's contributions, adds the article cover divider page thing, and includes PDF content.
23:20:33 <oerjan> my figures were made in xfig (hybrid tex / postscript mode)
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23:22:32 <zzo38> I have not needed figures so far, although I could do using rules, making symbols with METAFONT, etc, or if it is necessary even to use a program that can make it in PCL format.
23:23:15 <fizzie> I kind of like TikZ, although there's high chance of wasting time in figuring out how to do something in a fancy declarative way, when you could be done in ten minutes with absolute coordinates.
23:23:46 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm
23:24:20 <zzo38> (The "hpfile" special could be used to include any PCL graphics into the document)
23:25:20 <oren_> I usually just made a SVG in inkscape and then included it
23:25:26 <fizzie> For a course I was half-teaching, I did a lot of TikZ plotting for the exercises. You can call into gnuplot so that on the first round of processing, it writes some files you run gnuplot on, and then later it uses the results from gnuplot to draw the figures.
23:25:51 <fizzie> It can also call gnuplot on its own, but that requires some flags to let TeX call external programs.
23:29:42 <oren_> enE coments on mI nU speliG sistM?
23:29:49 <zzo38> Once I did try to include a picture in a TeX document by converting the picture into PCL format with ImageMagick and then referencing it, but I just got a mess on the output; do you know what is wrong? (Nevertheless I was able to fix it by using PBM instead)
23:31:03 <oren_> dU pEpL rElE distribyUt TeX fILs?
23:35:10 <oren_> I sE. jenRLE yU cNvert it tU PDF fRst.
23:37:48 <zzo38> I would use TeX->DVI->PCL
23:38:18 <zzo38> (Possibly with additional postprocessing steps after the DVI is created, in order to reorder pages for bookbinding or whatever)
23:40:43 <zzo38> Most things can be done in TeX but some things might not so you might put in specials which are used by various DVI->DVI filters.
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00:09:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The fnord never fnords fnord in the fnord fnord | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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00:12:30 <oerjan> The never in the what?
00:14:08 <shachaf> oerjan: you can't spell "whenever" without fnord "never"
00:18:03 <oerjan> very ominously put there
00:21:50 <shachaf> fungot: tell oerjan what's up
00:21:50 <fungot> shachaf: memo from yome: tell minion yow!
00:22:06 <lambdabot> Oh, I LOST my ``HELLO KITTY'' DOLL and I get BAD reception on channel
00:22:06 <lambdabot> Th'HOSTESS FACTORY is closin' down and I just heard ZASU PITTS has been
00:22:17 <lambdabot> My PLATFORM SHOE collection was CHEWED up by th' dog, ALEXANDER HAIG
00:22:17 <lambdabot> won't let me take a SHOWER 'til Easter ... (snurf)
00:22:20 <lambdabot> So I went to the kitchen, but WALNUT PANELING whup me upside mah HAID!!
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00:25:59 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: activity activity-full admin all-dicts arr ask auto-reply auto-reply? v @ ? .
00:26:23 <lambdabot> . [or compose] is the composition of two plugins
00:26:23 <lambdabot> The following semantics are used: . f g xs == g xs >>= f
00:27:52 <zzo38> Did you try using the INVITE command?
00:28:08 <zzo38> Then read the help file
00:28:27 <zzo38> The server has a help file to explain its working.
00:34:01 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:34:06 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:34:17 <zzo38> The help file is the HELP command on the server
00:34:48 <zzo38> The command you need to send is the "HELP INVITE" I don't know what IRC client you are using, see how you access server help file using it
00:35:23 <oerjan> i don't recall lambdabot responding to invite, i think you need to be an admin to make it join channels.
00:35:53 <oerjan> or you could be shachaf unless someone's closed the loophole
00:37:10 <oerjan> i think that's the one
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00:47:51 <oren_> Im bac! helO hppavilion[1]
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00:49:21 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm <- wut dU yU TiGk uv Dis?
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00:50:38 <oren_> is is u speliG reform pRpOsL
00:52:50 <oren_> Du IdEu is Dat it is ferlE clOs tU cRNt speliG and CatspEk
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00:54:12 <oren_> ol lowRcAs letRs are Du sAm, onlE upRcAs letRs hav nU sWnds
00:56:06 -!- skarn has joined.
00:57:37 <oren_> sO mOst pEpL can figR it Wt frum context espeSLE bEcuz letRs lIk x,c,q,y retAn Der orijNL mEniG
00:58:32 -!- pikhq has joined.
01:00:56 <oren_> Dus it strIks u balNs betwEn tradiSNL speliG and fNetic speliG
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01:04:13 <tswett> So, I've been thinking about natural numbers and other things.
01:04:29 <tswett> Given a set S, the following two concepts are equivalent.
01:04:58 <tswett> In any case, consider the following concept: "a set S, an element of S, and a function S -> S".
01:05:23 <tswett> Given "one of those", and a natural number, there's an obvious way of getting an element of S.
01:05:38 <tswett> Just start with the element there and apply the function the appropriate number of times.
01:06:26 <tswett> Indeed, it may or may not make sense to *define* a natural number as something that takes any "one of those" and returns an element of S.
01:07:03 <tswett> Given this, I'm wondering what the most appropriate term for "one of those" would be.
01:07:08 <tswett> I'm thinking "natural number algebra".
01:08:49 <oren_> duz evrE elMNt uv S haf tU bE rECabL bI itRAtiG Du funcSN on Du elMNt?
01:09:21 <oren_> does every element of S have to be reachable by iterating the function on the element?
01:10:45 <oren_> menE 'wuns uv DOs' wil bE eqivLNt
01:11:15 <tswett> I lIk yOr speliG prOpOzL.
01:12:20 <oerjan> tswett: in system F, naturals are defined as the type forall a. (a -> a) -> (a -> a) hth
01:12:34 <izabera> why does idea become IdEu?
01:12:37 <oerjan> which is equivalent to what you said
01:12:49 <oren_> u represents the u sound in but
01:13:20 <oren_> I as in kite, E as in beet, u as in but
01:13:23 <oerjan> i suppose that's also the church encoding
01:13:44 <shachaf> @google natural numbers object
01:13:45 <lambdabot> http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/natural+numbers+object
01:13:46 <lambdabot> Title: natural numbers object in nLab
01:13:46 <izabera> it's hard for non native english speakers
01:14:26 <oerjan> izabera: i'm pretty sure oren_'s system conflates several english sounds
01:14:40 <oerjan> the u in but is not the same as the a in idea
01:14:40 <tswett> All English speakers conflate several English sounds.
01:14:50 <oerjan> well maybe in oren_'s dialect
01:15:59 <shachaf> tswett: Your definition is like the least fixed point of Maybe.
01:16:01 * oerjan realizes "conflate" is probably not easy for non native speakers either
01:16:06 <tswett> How many syllables is "idea" supposed to have?
01:16:13 <shachaf> Mu Maybe = forall r. (Maybe r -> r) -> r
01:17:31 <tswett> shachaf: well, natural numbers are like the least fixed point of Maybe.
01:18:20 <shachaf> anyway conaturals > naturals
01:19:28 <izabera> why element -> elMNt instead of LMNt?
01:19:35 <oren_> oerjan: Dis sistM duzNt distiGwiS ol sWnds in mI dIulect EDR
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01:20:35 <tswett> izabera: the difference between "el" and "L" is like the difference between the "el" in "repel" and the "le" in "ripple".
01:23:06 <oren_> oerjan: for ixampL, W wiT and wiTWt canAdEin rAsiG.
01:25:18 <oren_> (Du sWnds in 'loud' and 'lout' wud boT bE W)
01:30:54 <oren_> hWevR, yU can stil figR it Wt frum Du folOwiG t or d
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01:53:32 <zzo38> What would my variant True Seeing spell be worth in terms of slot level and so on?
01:53:48 <shachaf> I don't know your variant.
01:55:03 <zzo38> It is a much simpler effect: The target can see things as if all magic were absent. You cannot selectively treat magics as absent; it must be all or none.
01:55:39 <shachaf> What if I summon a creature with magic? Will I be able to see it?
01:56:31 <zzo38> Yes, but you will not be able to see past any illusion that has subsequently been cast upon it.
01:57:02 <zzo38> If you choose to see past the illusion, you won't see the summoned creature either.
01:57:14 <zzo38> (Although you can still hear them)
01:57:44 <shachaf> What if I summon a creature and that creature attacks someone? Will I be able to see their wounds?
01:58:11 <oerjan> shachaf: let me guess, the last oots episode is chock full of references to the book...
01:59:12 <shachaf> I don't remember what's in the book.
01:59:19 <oerjan> CAN'T A MAN USE A SYNONYM WITHOUT EVERYONE GETTING CONFUSED
01:59:21 <shachaf> Maybe you can read it and remind me.
01:59:48 <shachaf> oerjan: burlew recently confused me about the terminology hth
01:59:54 <shachaf> Apparently a strip can contain multiple pages.
01:59:55 <oerjan> i only remember that that maneuver happened during the pyramid illusion
02:00:34 <shachaf> His grandfather taught it to him after he died.
02:00:56 <shachaf> And he's used it before, I think.
02:00:57 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0928.html
02:00:58 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
02:01:17 <oerjan> athenabot: the error was that you spoke
02:02:02 <oerjan> shachaf: that was after the pyramid
02:03:21 <shachaf> Yes. Maybe I misunderstood the word "only".
02:04:02 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
02:04:49 <shachaf> Oh, now I see what you meant.
02:04:59 <shachaf> I meant "actually used it before", as opposed to "imagining that he used it".
02:07:57 <zzo38> Another kind of idea would be, spell that increase your AC and you receive only half damage with spells but you also get penalty to attacks and can only cause half damage with spells.
02:09:50 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0600.html hth
02:09:51 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
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02:16:16 <oerjan> we've got enough annoying bots already
02:18:46 <zgrep> But... what if *I'm* a bot? D:
02:20:00 * oerjan watches zgrep suspiciously
02:20:17 * zgrep makes suspicious noises
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02:54:56 <shachaf> oerjan: prediction: mr. scruffy will turn the tides hth
02:58:50 <oerjan> mr. scruffy didn't go down to the moot with them afair
03:00:10 <shachaf> mr. scruffy can follow belkar wherever he goes, i'm sure
03:03:11 <tswett> My client doesn't seem to recognize the latter as my nick.
03:12:55 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm wondering more about bloodfeast the former dinosaur
03:13:48 <oerjan> surely that polymorph spell will be removed some day
03:13:55 <shachaf> hmm, http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/balefulPolymorph.htm
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03:38:13 <pikhq> Finding out you can't get your passport before international travel: FUCK.
03:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> Why can't you get your passport, pikhq? May I ask?
03:49:19 <pikhq> I fucked up the application.
03:49:54 <pikhq> Helps handing them the *correct* expired passport.
03:50:03 <coppro> pikhq: is there an expedited application you can do to get it in time?
03:50:25 <pikhq> The soonest I can *get in* to apply for an expedited passport is after I need to be there.
03:51:05 <pikhq> Sucks to be me then.
03:53:14 <pikhq> ... sounds like I'm VCing at like midnight then?
03:55:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bubblegum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44111&oldid=44054 * Dennis * (+2)
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03:58:25 <coppro> I need to be at training for the new job tomorrow morning
03:58:28 <coppro> soon to be today morning
03:58:36 <coppro> doesthiswork: good to know
04:00:10 <coppro> software developer at a local firm
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04:20:36 <pikhq> It'd work at Google HTH.
04:27:52 <coppro> yeah it would, wouldn't it
04:27:58 <coppro> well, it wouldn't on your first day
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04:31:05 <mauris> hmm. what, actually, is the easiest TC esolang to implement
04:31:18 <mauris> like, brainfuck has brace matching! so hard
04:31:44 <doesthiswork> not really but you can just use someone else's implementation
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04:34:06 <zzo38> You should improve the list of complexity classes so that actually is some information being listed.
04:34:41 <mauris> shachaf: hmm, let's say C
04:35:03 <shachaf> You can compile bf to C pretty easily if you have a C compiler.
04:35:11 <shachaf> But I guess strictly speaking that's not what you mean by C.
04:36:55 <mauris> yeah, i mean like an actual C program that reads code and runs it; not a conversion to C
04:37:25 <mauris> i suppose "TC" is inaccurate but (barfs), do we have a word for "TC but not really but ykwim man"
04:44:17 <coppro> actually there is a concept for this
04:44:26 <coppro> I don't know of a succinct name
04:44:38 <coppro> but there does exist a notion of a turing-complete program class
04:44:49 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bounded-storage_machine ?
04:44:50 <coppro> I'd have to look up my notes for them though and I'm going to sleep now
04:45:29 <coppro> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circuit_complexity
04:46:47 <mauris> maybe bf where [ and ] are instead jumps that double/halve the pc
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05:16:08 <Jafet> It's so easy to implement a Turing-complete esolang in C, people do it by accident
05:16:39 <FreeFull> Did you know: Jafet is Turing-complete
05:17:12 <Jafet> #include <stdio.h> \ int main(void) { char buf[100]; fgets(buf, 1000, stdin); return 0; }
05:21:13 <Jafet> I hear some people are Turing-hard.
05:22:19 <mauris> that doesn't look like a very good interpreter
05:23:18 <FreeFull> mauris: You can use it to call a better one
05:23:20 <mauris> do you just pray "buf" is right before the memory you're executing, which gets buffer overflown and then instead of "return 0" you're running machine code?
05:25:08 <pikhq> In correct code, you don't buffer overflow, you dynamically size your buffer appropriately.
05:25:44 <pikhq> For instance: int main(void) { char *buf = 0; getline(&buf, (size_t[]){0}, stdin); return 0; }
05:27:29 <FreeFull> pikhq: (size_t[]){0} looks like C++
05:28:13 <pikhq> Essentially all that does is produce an unnamed size_t[1].
05:28:23 <pikhq> (on the stack, of course)
05:28:41 <pikhq> As a natural consequence of C99 adding array and struct literals.
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05:31:03 * izabera can hear people in ##c complaining because "getline not standard!!!1!"
05:33:19 <pikhq> And frankly that's plenty good enough. You're kidding yourself if you think not-POSIX land gives a shit about C at all these days.
05:36:15 <Jafet> If we're restricting ourselves to languages on the wiki, it's also much easier to interpret thue than brainfuck
05:36:57 <zzo38> Some stuff on esolang wiki would be difficult or perhaps even impossible to implement, but some is much easier than being impossible.
05:39:35 <quintopia> i never feel like i have enough time to implement stuff if it's more complicated than like...7 instructions :P
05:42:22 <Jafet> You could exploit the TBFS formalism to implement many languages.
05:43:17 <MDude> I'll try to implement codesine the next time I work on it.
05:44:19 <MDude> Or part of it anyway.
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05:45:37 <newsham> [19:16] < Jafet> It's so easy to implement a Turing-complete esolang in C, people do it by accident
05:45:44 <newsham> nah, too common to be considered esolang :)
06:06:05 <hppavilion[1]> @tell Virgolang Can I get a basic time table as to when you are and are not online??
06:15:43 <oren_> It's so easy to implement a Turing-complete esolang in C, people do it by accident <-- that is how scrip7 started
06:17:43 <oren_> I was initially trying to make a simple configuration file format, which ended up needing loops to assign the same value to a bunch of bytes, and if statements to make things depend on values placed in memory by the host, and... whoops
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06:20:54 <Jafet> http://okmij.org/ftp/Computation/#sendmail-Turing
06:55:02 <mauris> pikhq: don't you need a free(buf) there?
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07:05:00 <mauris> https://github.com/catseye/Thue/blob/master/src/thue.c this looks a bit more involved than "match braces and run through a while loop" but some of it is fluff and most of it is the fact that handling strings in C is annoying
07:05:53 <izabera> can we talk about that indentation style?
07:07:08 <mauris> however, my opinion is that this is in almost no way simpler than brainfuck. its tokens are "big" so you can't just loop over the chars, there are lots of weird edge cases for I/O, it's nondeterministic, it involves string replacement
07:07:08 <oren_> yeah wtf. correct indents is one tab per indent.
07:07:19 <mauris> ps yes this indent style, help
07:09:10 <oren_> wel its mor Du lak uv cNsistNcE than anything
07:09:40 <oren_> ^ lk uv consistency ubuv deliberate
07:11:33 <oren_> olsO Du yus uv tU lIn ifs Dat cud fit on wun lIn
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07:16:34 <oren_> fuk yU mIcrOsoft wI cant I hav u '?' or '()' in mI fIlnAm?!
07:17:40 <izabera> what happens if you import data from a different filesystem?
07:17:58 <izabera> i mean if you import files with characters that ntfs wouldn't allow
07:18:27 <oren_> it just wont 'cp' Du fIl
07:18:28 <izabera> are they ignored? converted?
07:18:58 <oren_> sO I haf tU rEnAm Dem manUulE
07:19:59 <oren_> cp: cannot create regular file ‘music/Charly Lownoise & Mental Theo - Hardcore Feelings (?).mp3’: Invalid argument
07:27:21 <oren_> Du wRst part is I dNno wiC cerictRs ar invalid. stUpid erR mesaj!
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07:30:29 <Jafet> mauris: well, you don't need the clunky I/O for Turing-completeness. The string replacement is very easy to implement (strstr, realloc and memmove)
07:31:26 <oren_> wut!!!! cp: cannot create regular file ‘music/Milk Inc - Whisper.mp3’: File exists
07:33:40 <oren_> Du dRectRE wuz emptE! hW can Du nAms bE Du sAm on ntfs but difrNt on ext3?
07:34:03 <fungot> Selected style: sms (National University of Singapore SMS corpus, 2011-08-20)
07:36:25 <oren_> cMplAniG ubWt ntfs or spelling things in a new way?
07:37:32 <myname> it's actually pretty hard to read
07:38:34 <myname> i am impressed how it is even possible, though
07:39:03 <shachaf> Never mind hard, it's unpleasant.
07:40:04 <shachaf> What if we agree that oren_ uses this spelling and oren (or, better yet, orin) uses traditional spelling?
07:40:26 <Jafet> fungot can serve as an interpreter.
07:40:26 <fungot> Jafet: oh.. posb? nvr hear before leh.but i dun mind. you already there? rep. *brrr ur fb friends win cool coke can :)
07:40:58 <oren_> So how is it even possible to have two files with the same name in the same directory?
07:42:07 <izabera> I'VE BEEN LAUGHING FOR 10 MINUTES http://imgur.com/gallery/02BjRvJ
07:42:08 <oren_> Oh. NTFS is case insensitive. FUK!
07:42:15 <Jafet> Use ntfs-3g to mount the filesystem on linux in case-sensitive mode
07:43:04 <Jafet> On Windows, there's also SUA
07:46:57 <oren_> hmm the two files are actually identical.
07:47:06 <oren_> I'm keeping the one from 2006 though
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07:54:26 <lifthrasiir> oren_: also look at http://zompist.com/spell.html ("Spelling reform by regularization" section is relevant)
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07:58:30 <oren_> lifthrasiir: I see. he uses diacritics, but they aren't on my murikan keyboard, therefore capitcal letters are better.
08:02:51 <oren_> also this guy thinks cot has a different vowel than caught.
08:03:26 <b_jonas> "Another kind of idea would be, spell that increase your AC and you receive only half damage with spells but you also get penalty to attacks and can only cause half damage with spells." -- a steelform spell? sure, why not. it can't hurt to have more variations of those.
08:04:44 <lifthrasiir> oren_: "his" version of American English, so that is expected IMO.
08:05:18 <lifthrasiir> anyway, that page is a pretty good introduction to the automatic pronunciation reconstruction from spelling
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08:07:14 <oren_> but you can't do the opposite, which is kind of a problem if you want to look it up in a dictionary
08:08:17 <lifthrasiir> yeah, the spelling "reform" is what he got after removing any remaining special cases from his original reconsturction algorithm
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08:08:35 <lifthrasiir> that's pretty heuristic, and ultimately a bit ambiguous
08:08:42 <oren_> consider if i wanted to look up the word sot. i have to try sought, sot, saught, sawt
08:09:09 <oren_> afaik three of those are valid
08:10:03 <Jafet> Some dictionary software supports lookup by voice.
08:10:06 <oren_> i recommend banning the longer pellings
08:11:46 <oren_> actually ban any sequence of gh
08:13:44 <lifthrasiir> but the real complication is a large number of vowel digraphs (or, sometimes, trigraphs)
08:14:02 <lifthrasiir> we would have lots of them even after banning gh
08:25:25 <oren_> so we need more letters and lVk, Ders a SHIFT key on my keyboard that makes different letter when it's pressed, why don't we use that?!?
08:29:02 <oren_> i mean noone uses capital letters anymore on the internet unless they're shouting
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10:37:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44112&oldid=44107 * Jabutosama * (+1494) /* Programming with J-why */
10:38:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44113&oldid=44112 * Jabutosama * (+10) /* Programming with J-why */
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12:31:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainloller]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44114&oldid=42181 * 94.62.69.164 * (+16)
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12:45:14 <int-e> I've read about it
12:54:35 <int-e> I'm trying to work
13:03:19 <Taneb> izabera, I don't know it, what is it?
13:03:47 <Taneb> What kind of board game?
13:04:21 <izabera> there's this kite shaped board with two opposite red sides and two opposite blue sides
13:05:11 <izabera> each player must create a bridge between his two sides
13:05:39 <Taneb> I am not very good at it :(*
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13:53:10 <Taneb> I think I've got a sieve of Atkin in Haskell
13:53:42 <Taneb> Does anyone have a checksum of all the primes less than 6 million, in ascending order, one per line?
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14:06:39 <ashl> i get 5b5abad etc for the sha256
14:07:06 <Taneb> Got the right sha256
14:08:02 <ashl> `thanks cloud.sagemath.org
14:08:03 <HackEgo> Thanks, cloud.sagemath.org. Thoud.sagemath.org.
14:09:23 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/140543
14:09:25 <ashl> wolfram alpha refused to help me
14:10:03 <Taneb> (depends on vector and pqueue)
14:11:48 <Taneb> (also kind of ugly code)
14:13:03 <Taneb> Sieve of Atkin is not the cleanest algorithm
14:13:08 <Taneb> Nor am I the best programmer
14:14:36 <FreeFull> The actual Sieve of Erastothenes is pretty good
14:16:34 <Taneb> ashl, there's a thing that used to (maybe still is) bandied about that claims to be the sieve of Erastothenes in Haskell but isn't
14:16:35 <FreeFull> As opposed to the fake version that is actually trial division in disguise
14:16:42 <Taneb> FreeFull, iirc it's worse than trial division
14:16:57 <Taneb> https://www.cs.hmc.edu/~oneill/papers/Sieve-JFP.pdf is the relevant paper
14:17:29 <Taneb> Oh no, it is trial division
14:19:12 <Taneb> Just bad trial division
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14:21:44 <Taneb> I used that paper for implementation hints
14:22:56 <Taneb> Although I got in a muddle and ended up just using the hint to use a priority queue
14:23:58 <Taneb> One thing I ought to work out how to do is generating the candidates lazily
14:24:35 <Taneb> So I can have an infinite list
14:26:24 <Taneb> Rather than just the first 6 million
14:26:31 <Taneb> (or any other natural multiple of 60)
14:48:40 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/bin/%21
14:49:35 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 21 02:47 bin/! -> interp
15:03:54 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> it was intended so that we could add esolangs to it ourselves instead of having to bother Gregor <-- the problem is that HackEgo never got all of EgoBot's features and what _was_ belatedly transfered of EgoBot's structure is hard to discover and modify and doesn't fit at all with the "linux system" basis.
15:06:31 <oerjan> @tell ais523 and the "linux system" part keeps getting new layers added as newbies don't know about the old ones.
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18:26:22 <zzo38> I have made the game which resemble the puzzle mode of the Panel de Pon game, although additionally there are blocks that cannot be matched, as well as in addition to switches you can also use erasers and rotators.
18:26:56 <Lithiumate> and now, writing it an befunge interpreter.
18:27:11 <zzo38> Lithiumate: What bot is that, what is module being written with, is there the information of it? OK you can please write some more!
18:28:29 <Lithiumate> and i will connect them to my bot for use of people
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18:32:57 <zzo38> Tsumeshogi! I play the game!
18:34:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Sinatra]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44115 * Hppavilion1 * (+113) /* To IRC! */ new section
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18:40:58 <izabera> what's all the fuzz about this virgo thing?
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18:41:44 <zzo38> I think there is information in wiki, you can look
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19:15:50 <fizzie> What was this about login problems?
19:33:52 <Lithiumate> i forgot the pass and i don't linked email
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20:10:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Piet-Q]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44116&oldid=32427 * SuperJedi224 * (-14) /* Commands */
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21:20:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44117&oldid=43910 * Rdebath * (+1977) It seemed a bit fragmented, try this.
21:23:51 <izabera> For Turing completeness either the number of cells must be unbounded or (at least) three unbounded cells are required, the former is usually assumed.
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21:24:12 <izabera> can you prove that less than 3 is not enough?
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21:46:51 <fowl> Can you prove that you can prove that you can prove that you can prove that?
21:48:56 <int-e> are we allowed to mix unbounded and bounded cells?
21:57:52 <int-e> because then two unbounded cells are enough
21:58:15 <izabera> a finite tape and two unbounded cells
21:58:38 <int-e> (two counters can simulate three counters)
21:58:58 <izabera> i'm not really familiar with this kind of proof at all
22:01:09 <int-e> with two counters and a scratch counter, you can simulate two stacks, hence a tape. You can encode counters a, b, c as 2^a*3^b*5^c, and use the scratch counter and a finite number of states to check whether one of a, b or c is 0, or increment a counter, or decrement a non-zeor counter.
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22:06:55 -!- hppavilion[1]_ has set topic: The fnord never fnords fnord in the fnord fnord | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:07:10 <fungot> hppavilion[1]_: k d i vil mistake me only cha.dnt talk?
22:07:42 <int-e> fungot: oh a mystery
22:07:42 <fungot> int-e: aiyo cos she will not get an allowance for the first month
22:07:48 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms* speeches ss wp youtube
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22:08:23 <int-e> that's probably the worst of all those styles
22:08:45 <int-e> at least if you try to figure out what is actually being said :P
22:08:49 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
22:09:20 <fungot> izabera: great job. not some overrated movie with will ferrell called land of the scenes. i can't wait for the pilot if he dressed like that
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22:11:58 <shachaf> land of the scenes would be a good movie
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22:49:55 <oerjan> he's doing a pretty good job so far, i hear
22:52:24 <oerjan> shachaf: no, elizabeth. well i guess sonja too.
22:53:21 <shachaf> It's the future and Queen Elizabeth III and Queen Elizabeth IV are going to a party held by Queen Elizabeth V.
22:54:35 <oerjan> the future sounds dutch
22:55:52 <shachaf> The first couple of times I watched I didn't realize the age thing.
22:55:59 <shachaf> I guess I'm not used to queens.
22:56:38 <shachaf> "the age of Queen Elizabeth" is presumably an antitone function from naturals to naturals.
22:57:25 <oerjan> except for Queen Elizabeth VII the Time Traveler
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22:58:23 <izabera> someone should make a sitcom out of this
22:58:47 <oerjan> and sdrawkcaB ehT I- htebazilE neeuQ
22:59:33 <shachaf> also known as Queen Elizaaleph?
23:00:37 <oerjan> not necessarily, although suspiciously no one _has_ seen them at the same time...
23:06:33 <oerjan> <izabera> can you prove that less than 3 is not enough? <-- istr this keeps coming up. i vaguely think i thought the argument held last time...
23:07:01 <oerjan> if you have only 2 cells, then whenever you exit a loop, one of them must be 0.
23:07:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Timwi * moved [[CA (programming language)]] to [[CA-1]] over redirect
23:08:10 <oerjan> this means that if you start out with arbitrary values, then relatively soon _one_ of them can only have finitely many options
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23:08:42 <oerjan> this means you can refactor the brainfuck program as a 1-counter state machine
23:08:50 <oerjan> which is known not to be TC.
23:09:32 <oerjan> (relatively soon = as soon as you have exited a loop)
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23:10:36 <oerjan> hm except there are some loops like [>-<+] that do copying, so the finite number of options doesn't hold at _every_ later moment
23:11:10 <oerjan> * [>+<-] seems more likely
23:11:23 <int-e> but it should hold outside of innermost loops
23:11:52 <oerjan> something like that yeah
23:14:50 <oerjan> oh hm there's some issues like you can do multiplication by constants, and division _if_ the remainder is 0
23:15:10 <oerjan> (if not for the remainder 0 restriction that would be a TC machine)
23:16:03 <oerjan> hm there are too many possible loopholes for me to feel safe about this argument
23:16:14 <tswett> I'm thinking about the differences in how waves propagate depending on their frequency.
23:17:23 <tswett> I think the major thing is probably multipath interference.
23:18:08 <tswett> If the size of the obstacles is much smaller than the wavelength, the amount of multipath interference is going to be small, so low-frequency waves will effectively "wrap around" those obstacles pretty well.
23:18:58 <tswett> If the obstacles are much larger than the wavelength, now you probably will see a lot of multipath interference.
23:27:46 <tswett> Oh, that would be so awesome.
23:29:03 <tswett> A program just consists of, oh, a set of rectangles where you specify the characteristics of the medium there.
23:30:46 <tswett> I'm not sure exactly how you'd specify those characteristics.
23:31:04 <tswett> Guess you could start by saying that you can specify the impedance.
23:32:51 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hearing_the_shape_of_a_drum
23:41:10 <oerjan> int-e: i wonder how that castle compares to castle heterodyne...
23:43:32 <oerjan> i guess "not as lethal" is a safe bet.
23:44:33 <oerjan> well at least unless the master _wants_ you dead
23:47:21 <mauris> <shachaf> also known as Queen Elizaaleph? <-- this is a good joke
00:01:20 <tswett> There's a thought Ī had about English ōrthography.
00:01:49 <tswett> Really, thē consōnants are all rīght. It's thē vowels which are wacky.
00:02:17 <tswett> Ī think it would bē a big improvement if wē put macrons ōver all thē long vowels.
00:02:43 <coppro> tswett: that doesn't help
00:02:58 <oren_> yU cud dU Dat, but macrons arnt on mI kEbord
00:03:07 <coppro> how do you handle the word "throughout"?
00:03:24 <tswett> One of thē advantages of this is that you can read text written this way just ignoring the macrons.
00:03:46 <coppro> we should just replace english with pia
00:04:07 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think vowels even neatly split into 'long' and 'short', do they?
00:04:17 <tswett> Ī'm saying that dīgraphs dōn't get counted as long vowels, rēgardless of thē sound they māke.
00:04:38 <oren_> mI dIulect has 12 vWLs
00:05:09 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: no they don't
00:05:29 <tswett> Sō thē rūle is essentially that you put ā macron ōver "a" when it mākes thē "long A" sound, ōver "e" when it mākes thē "long E" sound, and sō forth.
00:05:40 <oren_> in normal spelling bat bait but boot bot boat bit bite be beet bout book
00:05:43 <coppro> long a/short a is an illusion
00:05:55 <coppro> taught by grade-school teachers who don't know linguistics
00:06:07 <oren_> those are the 12 vowels
00:06:20 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, again, english orthography of vowels isn't regular enough for that to work
00:06:42 <tswett> Ī'm alsō ūsing thē emphatic prōnunciātion of everything.
00:08:09 <oren_> tswett: my system is similar for the vowels, but it uses uppercase A instead of ā
00:09:05 <Phantom_Hoover> the sound people call 'long a' is a diphthong of 'short e' and 'long e' for god's sake
00:09:40 <tswett> coppro: well, bȳ "long A" I mean /eɪ/, bȳ "long E" I mean /iː/, and sō forth.
00:09:51 <coppro> tswett: see what Phantom_Hoover said
00:09:53 <tswett> Thōse sounds certainly exist.
00:10:09 * coppro is tempted to /ignore anything with a macron
00:10:27 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: Ī'm not really sure what you mean bȳ that. What's wrong with it?
00:10:27 <MDude> Is a macron a type of food?
00:10:58 <tswett> Of course. It's just like macaroni, but with fewer syllables.
00:11:05 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, basically your system isn't meaningfully less arbitrary than english vowel orthography already is
00:11:21 <oerjan> no, macrons are coconut cookies hth
00:11:29 <tswett> Oh right. What oerjan said.
00:11:42 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: this is true.
00:11:58 <tswett> It does give a small amount of potentially useful information, though.
00:12:37 <tswett> I don't think it would be useful very often, though.
00:12:42 <oren_> a good system should be easy for anyone to decide to use tomorrow, on any computer anywhere
00:13:15 <tswett> How often is it that someone writes the word "wind" and you can't figure out whether they meant /wɪnd/ or /waɪnd/?
00:14:27 <oren_> a good example is read
00:14:51 <oren_> you don't know whether to take it as rEd or red
00:16:07 <oren_> or whther 'Reading, england' is rEdiG or rediG
00:17:19 <oren_> at least that one becomes proper 'led'
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00:24:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: Inglēsh spelliN rEformz | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
00:41:44 <HackEgo> [U+02D0 MODIFIER LETTER TRIANGULAR COLON]
00:42:37 <HackEgo> [U+FE18 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET]
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00:44:52 <oerjan> Erilȳ, "problem" haz unCāNd spelliG
00:55:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you use it for the final consonant in 'spelling' in the topic
00:55:47 -!- oerjan has set topic: Inglēsh spelliG rEformz | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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00:57:12 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: your mistake is assuming the topic represent just _one_ spelling reform hth
00:57:26 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, using N to represent /ndʒ/ still seems odd but ok
00:57:42 <oerjan> well it has to be correct, as i'm infallible hth
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01:13:52 <Jafet> All this talk about spelling reforms, what about pronounciation reforms?
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01:33:21 <MDude> Os? I eat those things for breakfast.
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02:46:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lines]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44120 * Ypnypn * (+4078) Created page with "'''Lines''' is a language based on '''[[:///]]''', but with input. ==Specification== The program is interpreted exactly as in [[:///#Description|///]], with one exception. If..."
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02:53:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lines]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44121 * Oerjan * (+155) Itflabtijtslwi
04:02:19 <hppavilion[1]> Branching is going to be horribly inefficient unless I process the file THEN execute it
04:04:24 <hppavilion[1]> A self-modifying /t/-rewriting programming language
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04:34:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44122&oldid=44117 * 98.177.203.231 * (+1) fixed a little bit of grammar
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05:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> How do languages usually solve printing null characters in null-terminated strings?
05:51:02 <quintopia> "strings don't contain null characters"
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05:51:47 <quintopia> you either store strings along with their lengths, or you insist they not contain nulls.
05:52:21 <quintopia> the former is arguably better, as it is not susceptible to buffer overflow.
05:52:44 <quintopia> (but one could simply refuse any strings exceeding some maximum length and accomplish the same)
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07:33:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mauris * New user account
07:37:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Code golf]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44123 * Mauris * (+18) Redirected page to [[Golf]]
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07:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lazy-K]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44124 * Mauris * (+20) Redirected page to [[Lazy K]]
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08:35:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Universal Lambda]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44125 * Mauris * (+2651) Created page with "'''Universal Lambda''' is a [[:Category:Functional paradigm|functional]] [[esoteric programming language]] designed by flatigious in [[:Category:2008|2008]], based on John Tro..."
08:36:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Universal Lambda]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44126&oldid=44125 * Mauris * (+174)
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09:07:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[AWO]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44127 * 91.36.251.13 * (+1519) Added new esolang AWO
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11:13:27 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wälcåmä: not found
11:13:31 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
11:15:34 <b_jonas> `` f=bin/wälcåmä; >"$f" echo $'/bin/sh\nwelcome | sed "s/E/Ä/g;s/O/Å/g;s/e/ä/g;s/o/å/g"'; chmod a+x "$f"
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11:16:30 <b_jonas> `` welcome | sed "s/E/Ä/g;s/O/Å/g;s/e/ä/g;s/o/å/g"
11:16:30 <HackEgo> Wälcåmä tå thä intärnatiånal hub får äsåtäric prågramming languagä däsign and däplåymänt! Får mårä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://äsålangs.årg/>. (Får thä åthär kind åf äsåtärica, try #äsåtäric ån ÄFnät år DALnät.)
11:16:58 <b_jonas> `` >bin/wälcåmä echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome | sed "s/E/Ä/g;s/O/Å/g;s/e/ä/g;s/o/å/g"\n'
11:17:14 <b_jonas> `` >bin/wälcåmä echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec welcome "$@" | sed "s/E/Ä/g;s/O/Å/g;s/e/ä/g;s/o/å/g"\n'
11:17:19 <HackEgo> Wälcåmä tå thä intärnatiånal hub får äsåtäric prågramming languagä däsign and däplåymänt! Får mårä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://äsålangs.årg/>. (Får thä åthär kind åf äsåtärica, try #äsåtäric ån ÄFnät år DALnät.)
11:17:58 <HackEgo> b_jånas: Wälcåmä tå thä intärnatiånal hub får äsåtäric prågramming languagä däsign and däplåymänt! Får mårä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://äsålangs.årg/>. (Får thä åthär kind åf äsåtärica, try #äsåtäric ån ÄFnät år DALnät.)
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11:24:26 <b_jonas> `` welcome | perlr -e 'use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }'
11:24:27 <HackEgo> bash: perlr: command not found
11:24:33 <b_jonas> `` welcome | perl -e 'use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }'
11:24:34 <HackEgo> Welcome tå thä international hub for äsåtäric prågramming languagä däsign and däplåymänt! For mårä infårmatiån, chäck out åur wiki: <http://äsolangs.årg/>. (Får thä åther kind åf äsåtärica, try #esåteric ån ÄFnet or DALnet.)
11:26:12 <b_jonas> `` -e bin/en2sv || >bin/en2sv 'use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }'; chmod a+x bin/en2sv
11:26:14 <HackEgo> bash: -e: command not found \ bash: use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }: No such file or directory
11:27:06 <b_jonas> `` -e bin/en2sv || >bin/en2sv echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }'; chmod a+x bin/en2sv
11:27:08 <HackEgo> bash: -e: command not found
11:27:11 <b_jonas> `` bin/en2sv || >bin/en2sv echo $'#!/usr/bin/perl\n''use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }'; chmod a+x bin/en2sv
11:27:33 <HackEgo> Wälcåmä to the intärnatiånal hub får äsoteric programming languagä däsign and deploymänt! Får morä infårmatiån, check åut åur wiki: <http://äsålangs.org/>. (Får thä åthär kind of esåtärica, try #äsoteric on EFnät år DALnät.)
11:28:16 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nexec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv\n' > bin/wälcåmä
11:28:22 <HackEgo> Welcomä to the internatiånal hub for esotäric programming language däsign and däplåymänt! For morä infårmatiån, chäck åut our wiki: <http://äsålangs.org/>. (Får thä åthär kind of esåtärica, try #äsoteric on EFnät år DALnät.)
11:28:24 <HackEgo> Welcome tå the intärnatiånal hub for esåteric prågramming language design and däplåyment! For more information, chäck åut our wiki: <http://äsolangs.org/>. (Får thä other kind of esoterica, try #esåtäric on EFnet år DALnet.)
11:28:30 <HackEgo> Welcomä to thä internatiånal hub for esåtäric prågramming language däsign and däplåyment! Får morä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Får thä åther kind of äsåterica, try #esotäric on EFnet år DALnät.)
11:28:34 <HackEgo> Wälcåme to the intärnatiånal hub får äsotäric prågramming languagä design and däplåymänt! For måre infårmation, chäck out åur wiki: <http://äsolangs.årg/>. (Får the othär kind åf äsotärica, try #äsåtäric on ÄFnät år DALnät.)
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11:33:29 <b_jonas> `` sv2en <<<"There gloom the dark broad seas. My mariners, Some work of noble note, may yet be done, The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world. And see the great Achilles, whom we knew."
11:33:29 <HackEgo> bash: sv2en: command not found
11:33:34 <b_jonas> `` en2sv <<<"There gloom the dark broad seas. My mariners, Some work of noble note, may yet be done, The long day wanes: the slow moon climbs: the deep 'Tis not too late to seek a newer world. And see the great Achilles, whom we knew."
11:33:35 <HackEgo> Thärä glåom the dark bråad seas. My marinärs, Såme wårk åf nåble note, may yät be donä, The lång day wanäs: thä slåw måån climbs: thä dääp 'Tis not tåo late tå sääk a newär world. And sää thä great Achilläs, whåm wä knäw.
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11:44:14 <tswett> `ln -s wälcåmä bin/walcama
11:44:15 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
11:44:20 <tswett> `run ln -s wälcåmä bin/walcama
11:44:27 <HackEgo> Wälcome to the international hub får äsåteric prågramming languagä däsign and deplåymänt! Får måre information, chäck åut our wiki: <http://äsålangs.årg/>. (Får thä åthär kind of äsotärica, try #äsåtäric ån EFnät år DALnet.)
11:51:27 <fizzie> äsålangs.årg - still free for the taking by a typo-domain squatter preying on the massive esolangs.org visitor stream.
11:52:58 <tswett> I assume that .årg isn't taken.
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12:14:21 <ais523> error: running : on empty stack
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12:17:21 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
12:17:31 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
12:17:33 <fizzie> I forget if there was anything else it could be out of.
12:17:38 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
12:18:41 <fizzie> It can have too much of stack, though.
12:18:48 <fizzie> It can't have too much time.
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12:21:26 <ashl> maybe this is how dååth got their name
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12:23:28 <ais523> hmm, looks like I haven't implemented a limit on that one
12:23:41 <ais523> just took a while to hit it
12:23:57 <Virgolang> i will move my bot to an php server
12:24:05 <ais523> Thutu is pretty unary as languages go, so it tends to take a length of time to run that's proportional to its memory usage
12:24:46 <fizzie> ^ul ((:^)(xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:**^):^
12:24:57 <fizzie> That's one error message that I think is pretty rare.
12:25:06 <ais523> +ul ((:^)(xxxx):*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:*:**^):^
12:25:16 <ais523> I expect this to be "...too much memory used" too
12:25:21 <b_jonas> I was thinking of a fake-Swedish spelling variant where "o" is spelled as "å", "u" is spelled as "ã", "i" is spelled as "ää", "je" is spelled as "gä", "e" is usually spelled as "ä" but it's spelled as "à" instead when it would cause an ambiguity, namely in "ee" or "ie" or "ge" or "gei".
12:26:32 <ais523> b_jonas: so all the vowels are variants of 'a'?
12:27:35 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
12:28:00 <ais523> hmm, fungot and thutubot are the only bots in ^prefixes that are written in esolangs?
12:28:00 <fungot> ais523: " i hope" is more of a one-party state machine example. it never works for me
12:28:08 <ais523> or is blsqbot written in Burlesque?
12:28:51 <b_jonas> ais523: probably yes. if "y" is used as a vowel than it's not, so something may have to be done with it.
12:29:10 <b_jonas> "y" could be left as is, or spelled as "ö".
12:29:37 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
12:30:10 <fizzie> ais523: I think blsqbot was just Haskell, although I'm not sure.
12:30:11 <ais523> hmm, are jconn and j-bot the same bot?
12:30:26 <fizzie> ais523: I think they are. Also I think there might have been a third name at some point?
12:30:29 <fungot> ^(EgoBot|HackEgo|toBogE|Sparkbot|optbot|lambdabot|oonbotti|metasepia|ruddy|preflex|evalj|idris-bot|passwordBOT|jconn|applybot|blsqbot|fnordbot)!
12:30:46 <fizzie> I had "evalj" on the ignore list, although I'm not sure if it's J-related.
12:31:03 <ais523> I think it was? not sure though
12:31:40 <ais523> and I assume that that's a regex, and that fungot can't see its own lines so it doesn't need to ignore itself
12:31:40 <fungot> ais523: ok then, find out what's wrong
12:32:25 <ais523> I take it there's a regex fingerprint?
12:32:26 <fizzie> It's applied to nick!user@host prefix, hence the !.
12:32:46 <fizzie> You can compile a single regex for later use, and then match against it.
12:33:10 <fizzie> That's the only regex used by fungot, so it's compiled when set, and then it just assumes the "current regex" is always the ignore one.
12:33:10 <fungot> fizzie: i just wanted to make sure pointers returned by functions your module calls actually point inside your module
12:33:23 <fizzie> Have to keep that in mind if I ever use the regex fingerprint for something else.
12:33:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, evalj is the nick I use for my instance of jevalbot
12:34:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: I originally named it jeval, but renamed because "jeval" conflicted with a command in buubot, and never named back
12:34:33 <fizzie> (The interface closely matches regcomp.)
12:35:06 <b_jonas> my jevalbot config file also has a list of bots it partly ignores, but it's very out of date
12:35:08 <fizzie> I think I'm compiling the ignore one as REG_EXTENDED and maybe REG_ICASE.
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12:49:33 <ais523> Virgolang: connect to IRC using the bot's nick, and contact nickserv to register the account
12:49:49 <ais523> (if you don't know how that works, send it a private message saying "help" and it'll explain)
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12:53:51 <ais523> maybe it will eventually though
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13:15:44 <coppro> what's the program called that's an unholy merger of vim and emacs?
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13:29:24 <ais523> coppro: there are a bunch of different vim implementations inside the Emacs engine
13:29:28 <ais523> I think evil may be the most popular atm?
13:29:34 <ais523> but Emacs certainly isn't lacking in decent editors!
13:30:10 <ais523> (also, using vim via Emacs is probably the optimum because you still get all Emacs functionality other than editing, and Emacs beats vim by a long way at non-editing functionality)
13:31:57 <coppro> that's what I'm considering aiming to do for exactly that reason
13:32:02 <coppro> although I want to look at neovim too
13:34:04 <coppro> though I kind of wish there was a vim-like editor which was rewritten from scratch, as opposed to how neovim is just a fork
13:35:03 <ais523> is vim's internal implementation particularly bad?
13:35:39 <coppro> vimscript is a mess, but it's the user-facing mess
13:35:51 <coppro> different modules are written using completely different styles
13:36:10 <coppro> (e.g. the syntax highlighting module wraps everything into a monolithic :syntax command; most other commands are split out)
13:36:55 <b_jonas> I should probably try to write a good editor that does only what I need, but does that well. But it's a big task, and dangerous because the editor is a critical piece of software: if it's buggy you can lose data.
13:37:10 <b_jonas> Also, I'm not sure what interface I really want.
13:38:34 <coppro> vim's mode-based interface is gold
13:38:46 <coppro> it's the fundmental reason people sitll use it
13:39:58 <b_jonas> I know some things that I don't like, and some things I like, but there are some things I'm undecided about
13:40:25 <b_jonas> The vim-like mode-based interface is one I'm still undecided about. Maybe I should try to make the best of both a moded and a modeless interface, and try both.
13:41:39 <b_jonas> What I don't like about vim is how it's so line-based.
13:42:52 <b_jonas> I know mode-based makes more sense because there's so many commands that I want to be easy to type, probably more than there are keys available,
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13:55:44 <ais523> by default you can't even move the cursor beyond the end of a line outside insert mode
13:56:16 <ais523> (although I believe there's an option to change that behaviour now)
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13:57:31 <oerjan> definitely an option, i think it may even be on by default in the windows install
13:58:49 <oerjan> i don't seem to have set it specifically, it's probably part of the default "behave mswin" command
14:00:33 <oerjan> my linux .vimrc has set backspace=indent,eol,start whichwrap+=<,>,[,]
14:01:14 <oerjan> that's the virtualedit option
14:02:25 <oerjan> i have that off by default though; it's actually annoying when you _do_ want to follow the end of line
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14:25:55 <b_jonas> coppro: vim is line based in that you can't easily move the cursor on a newline character, unless the line is empty
14:26:44 <b_jonas> That's why there's separate a and i commands necessary.
14:27:29 <b_jonas> And you can't erase a newline by pressing 0X for example
14:27:40 <b_jonas> you have to use a special command, J, for erasing newlines
14:28:07 <b_jonas> I'd like the left and right cursor movements, delete, and the like, treat newlines like an ordinary character.
14:29:49 <izabera> i believe you can configure them, at least in insert mode
14:30:33 <izabera> same as you can configure backspace to erase newlines
14:30:43 <b_jonas> izabera: maybe? but I think the whole thing with so many commands are wired up so much line-based that I doubt you could really configure it so much that it's no longer noticable.
14:31:04 <b_jonas> even if you modify the common commands, there's a ton of other commands built on this
14:31:04 <izabera> i have this for the backspace thing set bs=eol,indent,start
14:31:18 <izabera> there's probably something similar for h and l
14:31:30 <b_jonas> this isn't really the only thing I don't like in vim though
14:31:40 <b_jonas> which is why I think it might be better to start from some other editor or write a new one
14:31:43 <ashl> yes, vim's internals are horrible
14:31:49 <ashl> to answer someone's question
14:33:14 <ashl> it's worth reading just as a morbid curiosity
14:33:16 <izabera> being line-based is perfectly fine for most programming tasks, methinks
14:35:09 <b_jonas> izabera: maybe. but it's just not what I like. and most other editors aren't so line-based.
14:35:40 <izabera> noone's forcing you to use it...
14:36:23 <izabera> http://vim.wikia.com/wiki/Automatically_wrap_left_and_right maybe this helps?
14:37:53 <b_jonas> izabera: no, that just lets you move from the last character of a line to the first character of the next line with the l command. it doesn't let you move the cursor to the newline character itself, unless there's an empty line.
14:39:02 <izabera> it's because you're used to a vertical cursor instead of a block cursor
14:40:16 <b_jonas> Or perhaps I could make a layout that has modes (an insert mode and a normal mode that is), but the insert mode shortcuts are mapped such that you can run some of the most frequent commands without entering normal mode.
14:41:02 <izabera> heh just use something different :P
14:42:07 <izabera> vi is not meant to be the ultimate editor, perfect for everyone
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15:02:02 <ais523> now I'm really curious as to whether it'd be possible to make vim use Emacs bindings, mostly as an esoproject (I don't think doing so would actually be /useful/)
15:02:11 <ais523> presumably you'd have to be in insert mode constantly
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15:04:03 <ais523> Virgolang: please stop CTCP flooding me
15:04:15 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
15:04:22 -!- ais523 has kicked Virgolang CTCP flooding in PM.
15:04:36 <ais523> huh, that actually stopped the CTCP flood, too
15:04:37 <izabera> how does kicking solve the problem?
15:04:38 -!- Virgolang has joined.
15:04:45 <ais523> technically it shouldnt solve the problem
15:05:03 <ais523> CTCP flooding an op is generally a pretty bad idea anyway
15:05:12 <ais523> oh well, it did actually stop when I kicked you
15:05:23 <ais523> so I guess that's one solution
15:05:25 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
15:05:57 <fowl> He's doing it to me
15:06:12 <ais523> Virgolang: stop or I'll kick you again
15:06:25 <ais523> (if you can't stop I'll kick you to stop it, that seemed to work last time)
15:06:41 <izabera> i have plenty of ignore keys to share, do you need some?
15:06:43 -!- Virgolang has left ("Stop CTCP").
15:07:00 <ais523> parting the channel seems to work
15:07:05 <fowl> That guy is retarded why don't you just ban him
15:07:26 -!- Virgolang has joined.
15:07:28 <ais523> this may be somehow related to the reason that the bot never does anything…
15:07:52 <ais523> Virgolang: why are you CTCP flooding people in the first place, though?
15:08:03 <ais523> it's not a very easy thing to do accidentally
15:08:27 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
15:08:39 <fowl> This is the same guy who sat in here spamming @bf expecting it to do something different each time
15:09:09 <ais523> does it even implement a bf command?
15:10:32 <ashl> coppro: FWIW i am a long-time vim user but i've recently (mostly) switched to emacs + evil-mode; it was fairly painless
15:10:41 <lambdabot> Plugin `bf' failed with: <<timeout>>
15:10:56 <lambdabot> Plugin `bf' failed with: <<timeout>>
15:11:02 <lambdabot> Plugin `bf' failed with: <<timeout>>
15:11:39 <izabera> this isn't really expected
15:11:50 <fizzie> Yeah, at least the ! one seemed all right.
15:14:28 -!- MDream has joined.
15:15:22 <Virgolang> i added virgobeta an joining command
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15:19:02 <fowl> Oh cool he ctcpd me so much my client blocked him
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15:19:45 <coppro> ashl: thanks, good to know
15:21:35 <fizzie> oerjan: You gotta reserve those prefixes while they're still available.
15:22:28 <oerjan> fizzie: too much work hth
15:22:55 <oerjan> also, that bot i kicked the other day had an interesting one.
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15:28:40 <oerjan> one day it might even work
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15:38:22 <ais523> for some reason it's kind-of relaxing to see it not working
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15:44:46 <ashl> you know there is a channel for testing bots
15:45:02 <ashl> or you could use your own
15:46:01 <izabera> http://thingsmydickdoes.tumblr.com/ almost sfw
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15:51:07 <ais523> now I'm really curious as to what's changing
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15:52:29 <fizzie> Looks like shotgun debugging.
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15:53:04 <ashl> from here it looks like doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result
15:53:16 <fizzie> There's a word for that.
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15:58:47 <ais523> I just had a huge urge to wait until Virgolang is disconnected, then +q VirgoBeta
15:59:34 <ais523> but I think it'd be a really cruel abuse of op powers
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16:00:02 <ais523> no matter how funny it would be
16:01:26 <b_jonas> he's writing an irc bot. I think he might figure it out quicklyk.
16:02:01 <b_jonas> hmm no, you're right ais523, it would be cruel
16:02:35 <ais523> I /did/ just check to see if another op had thought of it before me, but apparently not
16:02:57 -!- VirgoBeta has joined.
16:03:05 <ais523> hmm, apparently clog is +q'd
16:03:18 <ais523> did it ever used to speak?
16:04:14 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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16:05:02 <b_jonas> ais523: also mode +z so he doesn't even see the 404 replies
16:06:14 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:06:20 <ais523> fizzie: do you know why clog is +q? and would you be opposed to me unquieting it?
16:06:35 <ais523> wow that's a lot of output in a short time
16:06:42 <ais523> at least I didn't get sendq-killed
16:07:08 -!- VirgoBeta has joined.
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16:08:17 -!- VirgoBeta has joined.
16:09:04 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, and to make it even funnier, +b an extban of the type $j and randomly add and remove it to the control channel's banlist so it sometimes can't join this -n channel
16:09:23 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:09:53 <b_jonas> that would be even more evil
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16:11:05 <fizzie> ais523: I think the reason was something silly.
16:11:10 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
16:11:32 <ais523> I'm unquieting it then
16:11:36 <b_jonas> ais523: in fact, maybe link an invite-only control channel with +b $j pre-emptively so you can pray invisible pranks in the future
16:11:37 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:11:42 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -q clog!*@*.
16:11:45 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
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16:15:03 <ais523> so the big question is, is it written in an esolang?
16:16:36 <b_jonas> VirgoBeta bf: ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>.
16:17:07 <Virgolang> you give it commands using & prefix
16:17:07 <b_jonas> @bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>.
16:17:17 <b_jonas> &bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>.
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16:20:18 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/ul: not found
16:20:38 <b_jonas> ais523: fungot's worked too
16:20:38 <fungot> b_jonas: its public information. and usually, the debugger is able to produce really cool apps, just pops up some menu on xchat
16:20:44 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if that's an executable added manually
16:20:56 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: underload: not found
16:20:58 <ais523> or if it's still the one written in brainfuck
16:21:09 <ais523> that uses EgoBot's normal program storage mechanism
16:21:12 <ais523> `` type ibin/underload
16:21:12 <HackEgo> ibin/underload is ibin/underload
16:21:17 <ais523> `` file ibin/underload
16:21:18 <HackEgo> ibin/underload: POSIX shell script, ASCII text executable
16:21:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ . lib/interp \ interp_file "./interps/underload/underload.bin -o"
16:21:47 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/!: No such file or directory
16:21:56 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ CMD=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f1` \ ARG=`echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-` \ exec ibin/$CMD "$ARG"
16:22:09 <ais523> `` file ibin/interps/underload/underload.bin
16:22:10 <HackEgo> ibin/interps/underload/underload.bin: ERROR: cannot open `ibin/interps/underload/underload.bin' (No such file or directory)
16:22:14 <ais523> `` file interps/underload/underload.bin
16:22:15 <HackEgo> interps/underload/underload.bin: ELF 64-bit LSB executable, x86-64, version 1 (SYSV), dynamically linked (uses shared libs), for GNU/Linux 2.6.26, BuildID[sha1]=0x56cc5c218b67ee1e4890125833d546090d74d288, not stripped
16:22:24 <ais523> `` nm interps/underload/underload.bin
16:22:27 <HackEgo> 0000000000602650 d _DYNAMIC \ 0000000000602838 d _GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLE_ \ U _IO_getc@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ U _IO_putc@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ 0000000000401c38 R _IO_stdin_used \ w _ITM_deregisterTMCloneTable \ w _ITM_registerTMCloneTable \ w _Jv_RegisterClasses \ 0000000000402630 r
16:22:44 <ais523> `` nm interps/underload/underload.bin | cut -f3
16:22:45 <HackEgo> 0000000000602650 d _DYNAMIC \ 0000000000602838 d _GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLE_ \ U _IO_getc@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ U _IO_putc@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ 0000000000401c38 R _IO_stdin_used \ w _ITM_deregisterTMCloneTable \ w _ITM_registerTMCloneTable \ w _Jv_RegisterClasses \ 0000000000402630 r
16:22:50 <ais523> bleh, cut never does what I want it to
16:23:02 <ais523> `` nm interps/underload/underload.bin | cut -d' ' -f3
16:23:03 <HackEgo> _DYNAMIC \ _GLOBAL_OFFSET_TABLE_ \ \ \ _IO_stdin_used \ \ \ \ __FRAME_END__ \ __JCR_END__ \ __JCR_LIST__ \ __TMC_END__ \ __bss_start \ __data_start \ __do_global_dtors_aux \ __do_global_dtors_aux_fini_array_entry \ __dso_handle \ __frame_dummy_init_array_entry \ \ __init_array_end \ __init_array_start \ __libc_csu_fini \ __libc_csu_init \ \
16:23:14 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
16:23:16 <ais523> `` nm interps/underload/underload.bin | cut -d' ' -f3 | sort -u | grep -v ^_
16:23:17 <HackEgo> \ call_gmon_start \ checkfree \ completed.6092 \ data_start \ debuglevel \ deregister_tm_clones \ error \ frame_dummy \ ip \ lang \ main \ malloc_el \ popstack \ pushstack \ register_tm_clones \ serialize \ serialize_underload \ stack \ stderr@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ stdin@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ stdout@@GLIBC_2.2.5 \ unigetc \ uniputc \ zerostack
16:23:39 <b_jonas> `` ldd interps/underload/underload.bin
16:23:40 <HackEgo> linux-vdso.so.1 => (0x0000007fbffff000) \ libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x0000000040002000) \ /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x000000552aaaa000)
16:23:59 <b_jonas> `` ls -l interps/underload/underload.bin
16:23:59 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 33988 Apr 15 07:51 interps/underload/underload.bin
16:24:10 <ais523> whatever source that's using doesn't appear to be online (no hits for "serialize_underload")
16:24:17 <ais523> `` ls interps/underload
16:24:18 <HackEgo> underload.bin \ underload.c
16:24:23 <ais523> was hoping the source would be in the bot, and it is
16:24:28 <ais523> `paste interps/underload/underload.c
16:24:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/interps/underload/underload.c
16:24:57 <ais523> it's got to be me who wrote that
16:26:01 <ais523> like, there are a tons of clues it was me who wrote it
16:26:11 <ais523> even despite the lack of attribution
16:26:27 <ais523> the biggest is probably the troll indentation
16:27:29 <b_jonas> there's a paste command to get data faster then through irc?
16:27:41 -!- sc00fy has joined.
16:27:42 <b_jonas> is there a reverse of that, to send data faster than I could through irc?
16:28:02 <ais523> I think there is, but I can't remember what it is
16:28:13 <b_jonas> not that I couldn't send a lot of data with another both through irc, even with the server's throttling, but still
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16:31:53 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
16:32:12 <ais523> &bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
16:32:25 <ais523> &bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
16:32:39 <ais523> ah right, it's not using the ! convention to take input
16:32:47 <ais523> ^ul ,[.,]!Hello, world!
16:32:53 <ais523> ^bf ,[.,]!Hello, world!
16:35:32 <ais523> where does , read input from?
16:36:16 <ais523> &bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
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16:36:44 <ais523> also, you should probably ensure that a loop like +[] doesn't hang the bot or waste your CPU
16:36:58 <ais523> the usual way to do this is to put a limit on how many instructions the program will run before exiting
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16:39:46 <ais523> &bf ++++++++++.>+++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>>>+++.++.---------.<--.>++++.<---.>------.>-.+++.<<++++++++++++++++++.<+++++.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.------.>>---.<-------------.<-----.<+++.>++++++++++++++.>>.<------------------.<<-.>-------.<-.+.>>+.<------------------.>>----------------------.
16:39:59 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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16:40:30 <Virgolang> &bf ++++++++++.>+++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>>>+++.++.---------.<--.>++++.<---.>------.>-.+++.<<++++++++++++++++++.<+++++.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.------.>>---.<-------------.<-----.<+++.>++++++++++++++.>>.<------------------.<<-.>-------.<-.+.>>+.<------------------.>>----------------------.
16:40:58 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
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16:42:29 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
16:43:53 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:43:59 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: +o VirgoBeta.
16:44:01 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
16:44:08 <ais523> &bf ++++++++++.>+++++++++++++++[>++++++++>+++++++>+++++>++<<<<-]>>>.--.------.++++++++.>++.+++.<<----.<-----.----.+++++.>.<--.---------.------.>>>---.<+++++++++++.<++++.+++++++++.>+++++++++++++++++.++++++++.---.<<--.>>++.-------.>.++++++++++++++++++++++++++.<+.+.>--------------------------.<<<-----------.>>.<.>--.<---.>+++++.-----------.<-.-------.>>+.-----------------------.
16:44:09 -!- VirgoBeta has kicked Virgolang hi Virgolang!.
16:44:13 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
16:44:15 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o VirgoBeta.
16:44:17 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
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16:44:45 <ais523> I didn't realise until today how much I'd wanted a bot to kick its own owner
16:44:50 <ais523> Virgolang: you should probably not output newlines literally
16:44:55 <ais523> it's an injection hole
16:45:09 <ais523> I could have made the bot, say, register under a password I controlled, in which case you'd lose control of the account
16:45:34 <ais523> for example, EgoBot uses " \ " to represent a newline
16:46:23 <ais523> sorry about the kick, btw
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16:47:43 <hppavilion[1]> Virgolang: Did you add an email to your Esolangs account?
16:48:36 <hppavilion[1]> Or was it something you aren't going to be able to remember?
16:50:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44128 * Hppavilion1 * (+170) Created Page Virgolang
16:52:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Virgolang * New user account
16:52:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: asdfjkl; is both reasonably memorable and massively insecure
16:52:46 <ais523> it's probably in the list of the top 1000 most commonly used passwords
16:53:29 <hppavilion[1]> Virgolang: Do they use QWERTY keyboards where you live?
16:53:43 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the thing about that sort of subtle trolling is that the success and failure states look much the same
16:54:03 <ais523> which means it doesn't really work
16:54:50 <ais523> this is like the time on Reddit where someone wrote /bin/false in C, compiled it with mingw, and submitted it to virus scanners, with many saying it was malicious
16:54:51 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
16:55:11 <ais523> and someone tried to argue that virus scanners should report it because it's a good minimal testcase for an exploit
16:55:13 -!- VirgoBeta has joined.
16:55:39 <ais523> and I was thinking "that's pretty much the worst possible testcase for an exploit: /bin/false's behaviour is to do nothing, and report an error, which is pretty much identical to what you'd get if the exploit didn't work"
16:57:41 <ais523> rainbow welcomes seem to be popular around here (although apparently they became less popular when I started mocking them relentlessly; I just haven't stopped mocking them yet)
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16:59:59 <Virgolang> &bf -[----->+<]>----.+[----->+<]>---.--------.--[--->+<]>-.[-->+++<]>--.+.+[----->+<]>---.--------.
17:00:18 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:00:31 <Virgolang> &bf -[----->+<]>----.+[----->+<]>---.--------.--[--->+<]>-.[-->+++<]>--.+.+[----->+<]>---.--------.>++++++++++.
17:00:34 <Virgolang> &bf -[----->+<]>----.+[----->+<]>---.--------.--[--->+<]>-.[-->+++<]>--.+.+[----->+<]>---.--------.>++++++++++.
17:00:36 <Virgolang> &bf -[----->+<]>----.+[----->+<]>---.--------.--[--->+<]>-.[-->+++<]>--.+.+[----->+<]>---.--------.>++++++++++.
17:00:59 <Virgolang> &bf -[----->+<]>----.[--->+<]>++++++.--.------.++++++++.-[++>---<]>+.--[->++++<]>.>++++++++++.
17:02:13 <ais523> &bf ++++++++++.>+++++++++++[>++++++++++>++++++++>+++++++>+++<<<<-]>>>+++.++.---------.<--.>++++.<---.>------.>-.+++.<<++++++++++++++++++.<+++++.----.+++++.>.<--.>++++.------.>>---.<-------------.<-----.<+++.>++++++++++++++.>>.<------------------.<<-.>-------.<-.+.>>+.<------------------.>>----------------------.
17:02:13 <VirgoBeta> -> \ PRIVMSG #esoteric :^ul (test)S \
17:02:24 <ais523> that's how I injected the first time, and yes, seems to be fixed now
17:07:30 <Virgolang> implementing unlambda is very hard!
17:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44129&oldid=44092 * Virgolang * (+34)
17:11:50 <ais523> have you read the official unlambda website? it talks about what some of the problems are
17:12:00 <ais523> Underload is easier, if you want to start with that one first
17:24:41 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
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17:32:01 <ais523> this channel's been around for /ages/
17:32:08 <ais523> there are lots of people who we've needed to ban
17:32:41 <fizzie> Has it really been that long? It feels like it started only yesterday.
17:33:06 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
17:37:41 <Virgolang> to got unbanned, unplug your modem and wait 5 minutes
17:38:23 <Virgolang> so he/she will not try to do that again
17:39:35 <int-e> myth: this is an interesting topic
17:43:23 <ais523> fizzie: I think I've been here longer than you have, and it had been around for ages even when I first joined
17:44:36 <fizzie> ais523: I joined late 2002.
17:44:59 <fizzie> ais523: And I don't think it had really been around for long before that; I do remember the mailing list discussions about having a channel.
17:45:11 <ais523> hmm, OK, maybe I just don't remember you from back then
17:45:21 <ais523> I'd have joined about 2006, I think, maybe 2005
17:45:31 <fizzie> I did a couple of (months-long?) period of absences/lurkery.
17:45:39 <ais523> I think my first connection used Chatzilla for SunOS
17:46:03 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
17:46:06 <fizzie> My first connection was on a SparcStation 5 running... uh, SomeBSD. That's kind of similar.
17:47:31 <fizzie> Said SparcStation 5 has spent the last 8 months in the corner of our living room, because I was going to donate it to elliott but haven't managed to arrange the practicals yet.
17:49:01 <fizzie> (If they even still want it and/or live in the same country and/or anything.)
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18:03:44 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
18:06:35 <fizzie> There's a traditional test to do on all things like this.
18:06:40 <fizzie> &bf ++++++++++[>++++++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+<<<<-]>++.+++++++++..>>>.<+.++++.<+++.>-.>++++++++++++++++++++++.<<---------------.<+++++++++.
18:06:59 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:12:24 <FreeFull> It's pretty hard to accidentally code a bot so it takes its out output as input
18:12:39 <b_jonas> &bf ++++++++++[->++++++++++<]>..
18:12:58 <b_jonas> "< ais523> Underload is easier, if you want to start with that one first"
18:13:04 <b_jonas> what? Underload easier than unlambda? no way
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18:13:12 <ais523> b_jonas: much easier IMO
18:13:41 <b_jonas> well, it's easier to write hello worlds in underload because you can type a message without per-character escaping
18:13:52 <ais523> <fizzie> Well, it passes that. ← it does /now/, I was exploiting it earlier
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18:14:59 <FreeFull> You have to be somewhat careful about output
18:15:02 <b_jonas> &bf x++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++]
18:15:13 <b_jonas> &bf x++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++].
18:15:24 <b_jonas> &bf x++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>.
18:15:27 <FreeFull> Virgolang: Odd, it detected an overly long loop before
18:15:30 <b_jonas> no, I'm just writing typos in the code\
18:15:40 <FreeFull> But it goes into infinite loops now?
18:16:00 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
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18:16:58 <b_jonas> &bf x++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>.
18:17:05 <b_jonas> &bf y++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>+.
18:17:36 <FreeFull> &bf +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
18:18:03 <b_jonas> &bf x++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[<.>]
18:18:24 <b_jonas> @bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[<.>]
18:18:39 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[<.>]
18:18:41 <HackEgo> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:18:55 <Virgolang> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[<.>]
18:19:03 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[-<.>]
18:19:07 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[-<.>]
18:19:22 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[-<+++>]<[-<.>]
18:19:22 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:19:30 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>>+++++[-<+++++>]<[-<+++++>]<[-<.>]
18:19:30 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:19:48 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> +++++++[-<++++++>]<[-<+++++>]< [-<.>]
18:19:48 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:19:54 <ais523> &bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>-.>+..+.>-.<.++.---.+++++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.--.>.<++++++.++++++.-.>>++++++++++++++.
18:19:58 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> +++++++[-<+++++++>]<[-<++++++>]< [-<.>]
18:19:59 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:20:00 <ais523> ^bf +++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>-.>+..+.>-.<.++.---.+++++.<+++++++++++++++++++++++++.--.>.<++++++.++++++.-.>>++++++++++++++.
18:20:19 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> +++++++[-<+++++++>]<[-<+++++>]< [-<.>]
18:20:19 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:20:51 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++ [-<.>]>]
18:20:51 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:20:57 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<.>]>]
18:20:57 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:21:05 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<.>]>]
18:21:06 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
18:21:17 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<.>]>] <-.
18:21:22 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<+++++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<.>]>] <-.
18:21:26 <Virgolang> &bf >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
18:21:27 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<.>]>] <-.
18:21:28 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxÿ
18:21:35 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<.>]>] <<-.
18:21:35 <VirgoBeta> -> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxw
18:21:48 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<+.>]>] <<-.
18:21:59 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<+.>]>] <<-.
18:21:59 <VirgoBeta> -> yz{|}~
¡¢£¤¥¦§¨©ª«¬®¯°±²³´µ¶·¸¹º»¼½¾¿ÀÁÂÃÄÅÆÇÈÉÊËÌÍÎÏÐÑÒÓÔÕÖ×ØÙÚÛÜÝÞßàáâãäåæçèéêëìíîïðñòóôõö÷øùúûüýþÿ
18:22:18 <b_jonas> &bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<+++++++.>]>] <<-.
18:22:30 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<+++++++.>]>] <<-.
18:22:30 <HackEgo> '.5<CJQX_fmt{.#*18?FMT[bipw~ \ &-4;BIPW^elsz
18:23:03 <b_jonas> Virgolang: why does it say Loop protection. for that?
18:23:14 <b_jonas> `! bf ++++[->+++++<]>[->++++++<]>>>> ++++++++[-<++++>]<[-<++++++++ [-<+.>]>] <<-.
18:23:30 <b_jonas> isn't that very little for brainfuck?
18:23:35 <b_jonas> I mean, it's not a very efficient language
18:23:45 <Melvar> `! bf +++++++++++++++.
18:24:25 <Melvar> Now you’re even messing up my normal client!
18:24:39 <b_jonas> Melvar: should we move to #esoteric-blah ?
18:24:56 -!- VirgoBeta has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
18:25:05 <ais523> Melvar: I turned +C on, but there's not much else I can do against non-ASCII
18:25:05 <b_jonas> Melvar: fix your client. cat -v
18:25:34 <hppavilion[1]> Jump is going to be inefficient, most likely, as my instruction set doesn't have fixed argument locations
18:25:54 <hppavilion[1]> So I'll have to start at the beginning of the program and continue until I find my desired location
18:26:08 <hppavilion[1]> UNLESS I separate the program into an array PRIOR to execution
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18:26:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you could jump to a particular byte, rather than a particular command
18:26:38 <ais523> that's what machine code does
18:26:59 <HackEgo> VirgoBeta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:28:18 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:30:07 <Virgolang> `fetch http://download.thinkbroadband.com/100MB.zip
18:30:12 <HackEgo> VirgoBeta: Wälcåmä tå thä international hub for äsotäric programming languagä design and däplåymänt! Får morä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://äsolangs.årg/>. (Får thä othär kind åf esåterica, try #esåteric ån ÄFnet år DALnät.)
18:30:26 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
18:30:48 <Virgolang> `fetch http://download.thinkbroadband.com/100MB.zip
18:31:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 100MB.zio|echo: not found
18:31:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: 100MB.zip|echo: not found
18:32:07 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ oerjan \ paste \ people.p
18:32:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: md: not found
18:32:41 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ oerjan \ paste \ people.p
18:32:43 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
18:32:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
18:32:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: chdir: not found
18:33:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: md: not found
18:33:14 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:33:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
18:33:35 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ oerjan \ paste \ people.p
18:34:08 <hppavilion[1]> I particularly have no clue brecause I'm on windows
18:34:20 <HackEgo> total 8 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Sep 10 18:34 . \ drwxr-xr-x 19 5000 5000 4096 Sep 10 18:34 ..
18:34:24 <ais523> the command is mkdir on both systems
18:34:34 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `Virgolang': File exists
18:34:42 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste
18:34:52 <ais523> when DOS added directories, they copied most of the directory commands from UNIX
18:34:52 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access fairth: No such file or directory
18:34:58 <ais523> (that was in… DOS 2? 3?)
18:35:07 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `./Virgolang': File exists
18:35:12 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `./Virgolang/': File exists
18:35:16 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste
18:35:35 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access help: No such file or directory
18:35:38 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
18:35:42 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but MKDIR is aliased to MD since dos
18:35:46 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
18:36:18 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ madness \ MaFV \ nwzouew \ oerjan \ paste
18:36:23 <b_jonas> ais523: and CD is aliased to CHDIR; and DEL is aliased to ERASE; and REN is aliased to RENAME
18:36:48 <ais523> Virgolang: it's almost certainly there and has just got cut off due to line length
18:36:51 <Melvar> b_jonas: Messed-up client: http://i.imgur.com/e74zr85.png
18:36:54 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
18:36:57 <b_jonas> I was saying that we should add more aliases so DEL is also aliased to REMOVE and REM
18:36:59 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Sep 10 18:33 Virgolang
18:38:47 <Virgolang> `echo int main() >> ./Virgolang/test.c
18:38:47 <HackEgo> int main() >> ./Virgolang/test.c
18:38:59 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: -d to list the directory itself, rather than its contents
18:39:09 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
18:39:11 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: to list the directory contents, juts give its name
18:39:17 <ais523> also `ls doesn't take args, you want `` ls
18:39:25 <Virgolang> `echo printf("Good job :)"); >> ./Virgolang/test.c
18:39:26 <HackEgo> printf("Good job :)"); >> ./Virgolang/test.c
18:39:34 <ais523> `anything doesn't take more than one argument
18:39:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: anything: not found
18:40:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
18:40:45 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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18:47:29 <b_jonas> also, if you want a noisy bot (unlike these peaceful ones here), I've launched my old Termbot. you can join #esoteric-blah and wake it with `help
18:47:36 <b_jonas> I don't dare to bring it here.
18:55:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44130&oldid=44128 * Hppavilion1 * (+1359) Syntax, Execution
19:01:29 <Virgolang> Look here! https://github.com/virgolang/Virgobeta
19:03:24 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
19:03:39 <VirgoBeta> __init__ is not implemented. Sorry.
19:03:46 -!- VirgoBeta has left (""Changing channel."").
19:20:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44131&oldid=44130 * Hppavilion1 * (+1079) Initial instructions
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19:21:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44132&oldid=44131 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Fixed formatting (whoops)
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19:28:16 <b_jonas> oh, you mean underload is easier to _implement_, not to write programs in
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19:28:22 <b_jonas> yes, that's true, because of call/cc
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19:48:13 <fizzie> fungot bf execution limit is aaaaaa***** operations.
19:48:13 <fungot> fizzie: oh well, bye again. remarkably, it actually worked pretty well back then ( in about that order, are you fnord fnord goes the birdie outside
19:48:34 <fizzie> But +++++ is one operation, as is <<<.
19:49:55 <fizzie> It just converts to a bytecodey format when parsing, and it's the executing bit that counts the number of things done.
19:50:01 <ais523> fizzie: why did you write "one million" in Funge rather than English?
19:50:13 <fizzie> ais523: Copy-pasted from the source.
19:50:41 <izabera> oh you mean how fungot works
19:50:41 <fungot> izabera: well i would say, all io operations) have to specify each time it is
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20:04:19 <b_jonas> I was wondering what aaaaaa***** meant
20:11:13 <myname> but funge doesn't use hex?
20:18:27 <FreeFull> I like being able to write something like 7+ instead of +++++++
20:19:56 <myname> how do you push a 7 then?
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20:29:59 <FreeFull> myname: I meant for a slightly extended brainfuck
20:30:48 <myname> i do think bf joust bots have some meta syntax
20:35:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
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20:39:38 <int-e> afaiu, they have so much of it that fully expanding many of the programs would be insane
20:39:56 <Virgolang> i am writing help module for virgobeta
20:40:41 <VirgoBeta> Note: Commands with * is planned to implement.
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20:45:57 <fizzie> myname: Funge-98 adds a..f as commands to push 10..15.
20:46:40 <fizzie> They weren't being used for anything, so might as well.
20:46:48 <myname> i usually did something like 55+
20:46:52 <fizzie> Some Befunge-93 interpreters also do that as an extension.
20:47:07 <fizzie> I always did 52* while my friend always did 55+.
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20:47:40 <myname> but aaaaaa***** looks more clear than 252525252525***********
20:47:59 <fizzie> Yes. Deewiant has a tool for optimizing big numbers in Befunge.
20:48:12 <fizzie> Using string mode, mostly.
20:49:13 <fizzie> 10 isn't very amenable for that, but "ddd"** is pretty concise.
20:49:20 <b_jonas> isn't there a dup command?
20:49:34 <fizzie> There is a dup command, you can do :::*** towers.
20:50:09 <fizzie> Well, depending on what you want, of course.
20:50:32 <fizzie> 'd::** in Funge-98, with one-shot string mode.
20:51:29 <fizzie> I wrote it out in fungot, because with aaaaaa***** the resulting number is immediately obvious (FSVO).
20:51:29 <fungot> fizzie: does anyone here think it odd that some english professors deride science fiction, it's actually very clear underneath that. there. is away.
20:51:34 <fizzie> It's like unary scientific notation.
20:51:48 <ais523> fizzie: haha, does :*:*:* mean "raise to the power of 8" in both Befunge and Underload? that's a pretty crazy same-meaning polyglot
20:52:11 <b_jonas> ais523: with what number representation in underload?
20:52:29 <ais523> (I've been working on Underlambda, whose stdlib operates on that representation)
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20:53:12 <ais523> also I realised that a Church list probably defines a list by its map function
20:53:20 <ais523> which would be an interesting variant on the cons cell representation
20:53:35 <ais523> in Underlambda, a list is ((a)(b)(c)(d)), but that doesn't work in Underload because you can't find the list length
20:53:42 <int-e> ais523: fold, not map, I thought.
20:53:58 <ais523> actually in Underload it's probably iter
20:54:12 <ais523> (i.e. "evaluate this function on each element in turn")
20:54:26 <ais523> that way the function can decide for itself whether it's a map or a fold
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20:56:23 <myname> wtf underlambda? i know unlambda, but that looks way different
20:56:55 <b_jonas> myname: yeah, esolangs don't work by being similar if their names are similar
20:56:58 <ais523> myname: Underlambda is an esolang I've been working on for a long time now
20:57:28 <b_jonas> myname: there's some correlation because many brainfuck derivatives have fuck in their name, but not all *fuck are brainfuck derivatives
20:57:29 <ais523> it's an Underload derivative mostly, but it's also functional in the sense that the only thing you can do with data is to evaluate it
20:57:52 <ais523> b_jonas: I think nearly all *fuck are either brainfuck derivatives or parodies of brainfuck derivatives
20:58:03 <ashl> why's there no underlambda page on the wiki
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20:58:29 <ais523> myname: the eventual goal is to produce a program which can translate itself into an a wide set of esolangs, interpret a wide set of esolangs, and compile a wide set of esolangs into other esolangs
20:58:31 <b_jonas> what's the most popular unlambda-like language that is pure and has haskell-like IO?
20:58:43 <ais523> thus kind-of breaking EsoInterpreters
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21:05:09 <b_jonas> oh also, what's the most popular python variant (extension, preprocessor, etc) that lets you use some sort of delimiters instead of indentation and newlines? preferably one that lets you do this with syntax made of printable ascii characters, and for python3.
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21:06:35 <b_jonas> ais523: no, Lazy K isn't such a thing
21:06:46 <b_jonas> ais523: IO in Lazy K isn't haskell-like
21:07:12 <ais523> b_jonas: it is, it's just that the language doesn't provide monads in its stdlib because it basically doesn't have a stdlib
21:07:14 <myname> haskell has very haskell-like io
21:07:30 <myname> also: why is curry that unpopular?
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21:08:21 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, as far as I understand it, input in Lazy K is like getContents in haskell,
21:08:48 <ais523> b_jonas: well it's lazy, so it's possible that the input is only fetched at a point when it's actually needed
21:08:51 <b_jonas> it gives you a list of characters where evaluating a character has a side effect of reading a character.
21:09:10 <b_jonas> I don't think that's very haskell-like, but it's definitely not _pure_.
21:10:22 -!- Virgolang_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:12:02 <b_jonas> Does this make sense? Or have I misunderstood Lazy K or Haskell?
21:12:22 -!- Virgolang_ has joined.
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21:19:24 <b_jonas> ais523: also, is there a status update on aimake4?
21:19:25 -!- VirgoBeta has joined.
21:19:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I've been at work today; also I won't get it finished in one day
21:20:00 <ais523> (that said, writing a build system in SQL is probably an appropriate topic for #esoteric)
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21:20:46 <b_jonas> mind you, cmake+msbuild is probably approperiate too
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21:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> / ; see SETinstuctionexamplecompiled for compiled equivalent
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21:24:26 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:24:32 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:27:48 <hppavilion[1]> I know 24-hour time fairly vaguely. I use it on my computer because it's better, but I'm not very good at it xD
21:29:02 <hppavilion[1]> The commands will be: &createpoll <name> <options>; &votefor <poll> <candidate>; &getcandidates <poll>; etc.
21:30:42 <Virgolang_> you should write to a file what you have done to repo.
21:31:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44133&oldid=42109 * B jonas * (+43)
21:33:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blsq: not found
21:33:57 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/blsq: not found
21:34:01 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
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21:37:08 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
21:37:14 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:37:40 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
21:38:05 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you don't. the maintainer of fungot adds it if he thinks it's useful.
21:38:05 <fungot> b_jonas: 1 ( car ( ( 1 2)
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21:38:31 <HackEgo> kanada/Your bankers' vain plazas never nutured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all collapsing while your corrupt mayors shrug
21:38:33 <fungot> izabera: i'm excessively unfamiliar with scheme, to iterate across a vector, it will
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21:41:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:41:24 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
21:41:29 <hppavilion[1]> The reason Lordofthe is in my hostname is that that's my /realname/!
21:41:52 <oerjan> if you say so, mr. sauron
21:41:59 <shachaf> oerjan: that style irks me hth
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21:42:40 <shachaf> i have a great #esoteric pun that i've been saving up for months
21:42:58 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
21:43:03 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Aug 27 22:30 oerjan
21:43:04 <shachaf> one day it'll be topical and i'll strike
21:43:06 <hppavilion[1]> You should make Virgobeta work on multiple channels
21:43:17 <shachaf> `` hg log oerjan | grep summary:
21:43:18 <HackEgo> summary: <Roujo> touch oerjan
21:43:30 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/oerjan
21:43:34 <HackEgo> changeset: 3718:89fefb0960d8 \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Sep 11 16:01:02 2013 +0000 \ summary: <Roujo> touch oerjan
21:43:45 <shachaf> just short of the two year anniversary tdnh
21:43:58 <HackEgo> mauke/mauke is a Master Archer. Caution! He can shoot your PRIVMSG with creative arrows!
21:44:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that seems rather too old ...
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21:47:30 <oerjan> Virgolang: seriously learn not to put characters in front of /msg
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21:50:54 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it's actually this one why doesn't it show up in `hg log http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/a3b62224d2da
21:51:31 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed oerjan | grep summary:
21:51:33 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> rm oerjan \ summary: <izabera> ` bison > oerjan \ summary: <oerjan> rm oerjan/cat \ summary: <Roujo> mkdir oerjan; cp cat oerjan \ summary: <oerjan> rm -rf oerjan \ summary: <Roujo> mkdir oerjan; cp cat oerjan \ summary: <oerjan> mv oerjan/cat share; rmdir oerjan \ summary: <Roujo> cp cat oerjan \ s
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21:52:27 <oerjan> oh that's not the default
21:53:43 <oerjan> does it still remove empty directories automatically, i'd otherwise expect an `rmdir in there
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21:58:50 <HackEgo> cat: oerjan: Is a directory
21:59:01 <HackEgo> cat: Virgolang: Is a directory
21:59:18 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access Virgolang\: No such file or directory
21:59:27 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access .\Virgolang: No such file or directory
21:59:53 <Virgolang_> `echo int main() >> ./Virgolang/hello.c
21:59:53 <HackEgo> int main() >> ./Virgolang/hello.c
22:00:22 <shachaf> Not in the channel, please.
22:00:33 <Virgolang_> `echo printf("Hello #esoteric!\n"); >> ./Virgolang/hello.c
22:00:33 <HackEgo> printf("Hello #esoteric!\n"); >> ./Virgolang/hello.c
22:01:16 <Virgolang_> ``gcc ./Virgolang/hello.c -o ./Virgolang/hello.exe
22:01:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `gcc: not found
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22:12:32 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
22:12:40 -!- oerjan has kicked VirgoBeta Stop spamming.
22:12:44 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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22:17:28 <oerjan> Virgolang_: i greatly recommend limiting responses to one line unless absolutely necessary
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22:20:30 <oerjan> that's not a good enough reason on irc
22:20:51 <shachaf> I don't think this bot is helping anything.
22:21:12 <shachaf> If you aren't using it to communicate with other people in the channel, you should use /msg.
22:21:23 <int-e> (I had to use my own)
22:23:08 <int-e> that seems to be a very roundabout way of getting your bot k-lined
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23:15:05 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: unlambda hi bf ul help join
23:15:34 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
23:15:40 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
23:18:40 <oerjan> hm ais523 unquited clog?
23:18:57 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
23:19:26 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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23:44:53 <oerjan> or possibly some flies
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00:46:16 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas <b_jonas> what's wrong with ^blsq ? <-- mostly the fact fungot has never implemented it hth
00:46:17 <fungot> oerjan: termite handles the " tricky" stuff? ( vague recollection of a talk.
00:47:01 <oerjan> fungot: provided the tricky stuff is made of wood
00:47:01 <fungot> oerjan: it really should use char=?
00:49:13 <mauris> can lambdabot's @unlambda accept input somehow?
00:49:13 <HackEgo> recursion/You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
00:49:18 <Melvar> hppavilion[1]: It’s whale + horse. “horse” used to be “hros”.
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00:51:58 <Melvar> It used to take a plural in -er, but this has fallen completely out of use in English.
00:55:00 <oerjan> @unlambda ```s`d`@|i`ciMaybe...
00:55:32 <Melvar> In German there’s actually two options, it can be “Walrosse” or “Walrösser”, with the former more common. (With bare “Ross”, it is “Rösser” that is the more common option.)
00:55:49 <oerjan> since unlambda is LL(0), the parser just leaves the remainder of stdin for the program
00:56:31 <oerjan> (technically this means the implementation doesn't support comments or whitespace after the program)
00:57:48 <mauris> ^ i thought this would be putchar(getchar())
00:59:01 <mauris> unlambda is so ugly ;o;
00:59:56 <oerjan> I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT http://oerjan.nvg.org/esoteric/interpreter.unl
01:00:51 <mauris> "In my version of Netscape,"
01:00:59 <oerjan> preferably with a browser that understands linux line endings GAH
01:04:08 <mauris> i don't think i could write an unlambda interpreter in Python :(
01:04:20 <oerjan> you'd probably need a trampoline
01:05:04 <oerjan> or the original C version, which is a translation of the Java one iirc
01:07:07 <mauris> oh, is this just a roundabout way to do TCO
01:08:44 <oerjan> nowadays i just say CC-0 if i remember
01:09:43 <mauris> i should find out about: licenses
01:09:48 <mauris> and why there are a billion of them
01:10:38 <shachaf> mauris: do you know how i chose the mit license
01:11:34 <shachaf> I actually wanted to modify the license to make it even shorter.
01:11:41 <oerjan> my university collaborator at the time was/is a great GPL supporter. did i mention how he managed to get a GPLv3+ licensed open source project started in the oil industry...
01:11:45 <shachaf> But then I wouldn't be able to pick "MIT" in Cabal and so on.
01:12:08 <mauris> the "wtfpl" probably has it beat! but it's dumb
01:12:26 <shachaf> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.6.3/docs/html/libraries/Cabal-1.16.0/Distribution-License.html
01:15:04 <mauris> http://i.stack.imgur.com/CZIoa.png neat!
01:15:21 <mauris> except my head hurts, tdnh
01:16:32 <shachaf> try rotating the screen instead hth
01:17:17 <izabera> trying to produce a list of possible corrections for a word that's been misspelled. can you think of a way that doesn't require to go through the entire dictionary?
01:17:43 <shachaf> @google spelling correction algorithm
01:17:44 <lambdabot> http://norvig.com/spell-correct.html
01:18:26 <mauris> ^ this is good and i hear Bloom filters help too
01:20:23 <izabera> that's going through the entire dictionary
01:22:58 <oerjan> <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you don't. the maintainer of fungot adds it if he thinks it's useful. <-- ithm me hth
01:22:58 <fungot> oerjan: i often just cast code into the interpreter.
01:23:24 <oerjan> fungot: well that's how i actually _do_ it, of course.
01:23:24 <fungot> oerjan: no problem. well, yeah, whatever
01:24:37 <hppavilion[1]> I think Esolangs needs an Esoteric Software License that people can put content under
01:24:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: part of the point of ^prefixes is to keep it synchronized between all the bots that implement it. so please don't try to fix it if you don't know how.
01:29:46 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
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01:51:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: herro: not found
01:51:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: greet: not found
01:51:47 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: for 4.1 to 4.0 i need to do unit testing for some reason. i get it
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02:45:53 <oerjan> gah the neighbor has some kind of once-a-minute alarm going off
02:45:59 <oerjan> in the middle of the night
02:46:13 <lambdabot> Local time for oerjan is Fri Sep 11 04:46:13 2015
02:46:15 <oerjan> (i don't _think_ it's in my apartment.)
02:46:55 <shachaf> how would you feel about a work day starting at 05:45 mgitwnh
02:48:00 <oerjan> i cannot imagine that they're home...
02:48:37 <oerjan> unless it actually _is_ in my apartment. it's eerily close to the fan and it seemed to get louder when i turned it on...
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02:49:04 <oerjan> but why would there be an alarm when i cut the power...
02:49:16 <oren_> it's on the floor above,
02:49:39 <oren_> a phone is running out a batteries lying on the floor unattended
02:54:49 <oerjan> my best triangulation says it's _probably_ behind the wall behind the kitchen bench / stove
02:55:29 <oerjan> i assume the neighbor's kitchen is there?
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03:02:34 <^v> going to make a esolang that consists of only ^ and v
03:10:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ´`: not found
03:27:17 <^v> shachaf, i am only ^v here
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03:58:04 <oren_> there are too many binary esolangs
03:58:44 <oren_> err, I mean esolangs with only two symbols in source, not esolangs that use binary numbers
04:11:11 <zgrep> oren_: That is why there should be an esolang with only one symbol.
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05:49:40 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/c-bits/blob/master/emg/spell.c how is this
05:50:36 <izabera> reads words and checks their spelling
05:50:49 <izabera> any idea to make it faster?
06:01:17 <myname> well, you could built a trie
06:01:45 <myname> lookup is O(length of input)
06:02:00 <izabera> i thought about it but the slow part is producing the corrections
06:02:53 <izabera> lookup takes at most 17 steps with my dictionary
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06:48:43 <Jafet> izabera: http://julesjacobs.github.io/2015/06/17/disqus-levenshtein-simple-and-fast.html
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07:25:37 <ashl> for producing corrections at least
07:25:47 <ashl> for looking up, tries are nice
07:28:10 <ashl> not that a trie isn't just an automaton in disguise
07:29:07 <b_jonas> I have multiple questions.
07:30:04 <b_jonas> Firstly, what's the resolution of the highest resolution TFT monitors these days?
07:33:54 <ashl> i don't know, 3840 x 2160?
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07:45:04 <b_jonas> ashl: well, I was just wondering. I realized that my code would have an interger overflow if you called it with a video of size 8192x8192 pixels, and I was wondering how close we are to those kind of videos getting common.
07:45:42 <ashl> ` echo 8192 8192 \* p | dc
07:45:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
07:46:23 <ashl> `` echo 8192 8192 \* p | dc
07:46:40 <ashl> why would it overflow there
07:47:02 <b_jonas> I allocate an array of size 8 bytes per pixel, plus some extra, and index it with an int32_t
07:48:12 <ashl> my dc-fu is not very good
07:48:27 <ashl> i should have used 8192d*p
07:49:07 <ashl> Virgolang: what are you doing and why
07:49:17 <HackEgo> dc: option requires an argument -- 'e' \ Usage: dc [OPTION] [file ...] \ -e, --expression=EXPR evaluate expression \ -f, --file=FILE evaluate contents of file \ -h, --help display this help and exit \ -V, --version output version information and exit \ \ Email bug reports to: bug-dc@gnu.org .
07:52:09 <myname> english is not your native language, i suppose
07:52:42 <myname> "is it have an bf evaluator"
07:53:55 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
07:53:57 <b_jonas> found the answer in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_monitor#Resolution
07:54:14 <b_jonas> "Apple ... introduced a 5120x2880 Retina iMac at 27 in (69 cm) on October 16, 2014. By 2015 all major display manufactuers had released 3840x2160 resolution displays."
07:54:33 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
07:57:01 <myname> just to point it out: the help doesn't say a word about ^add even existing
07:59:48 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
08:00:18 <myname> it also does not say a word about ^prefixes existing
08:00:55 <b_jonas> `le/rn resolution/As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
08:01:06 <HackEgo> As of 2015, highest resolution commercial computer monitors are 5120x2880 Apple and 3840x2160 other.
08:01:32 <b_jonas> myname: do you think the help tells everything?
08:01:51 <b_jonas> myname: the fungot help doesn't even tell about the ^prefixes command
08:01:52 <fungot> b_jonas: about the silly heap limit on osx/ x86...) with ( if ( for-me? ( fnord,
08:03:55 <myname> b_jonas: isn't that just a trivia?
08:04:39 <myname> why does everybody have to have bots now
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08:11:19 <b_jonas> myname: now? I've been running an irc bot since 2005-12
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08:11:50 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: unlambda ul bf join help hi
08:12:00 <VirgoBeta> Usage: &ul <ul_code>. Not implemented yet.
08:12:04 <b_jonas> Heck, I should probably prepare something to celebrate the tenth anniversary this Christmas
08:12:19 <VirgoBeta> Usage: &unlambda <unlambda_code>. Not implemented yet.
08:12:34 <b_jonas> VirgoBeta: add all of the big six!
08:14:12 <b_jonas> wait, what was the big six? INTERCAL, Befunge, Brainfuck, Unlambda, Underload, and what's the sixth? Piet? Chef? I don't think it's chef.
08:15:02 <fizzie> b_jonas: comp, humanities, misc, news, rec, sci, soc and talk. Wait, that's the big 8 of Usenet.
08:16:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: http://www.xkcd.com/1417/
08:17:03 <fizzie> b_jonas: While the displays aren't quite up there, 8K video does exist, but it's 7680x4320. I haven't heard of anything bigger than that becoming "mainstream" in any sense of the word.
08:17:54 <fizzie> "One advantage of high-resolution displays such as 8K is to have each pixel be indistinguishable from another to the human eye from a much closer distance. On an 8K screen sized 52 inches (132 cm), this effect would be achieved in a distance of 50.8 cm (20 inches) from the screen --" (Wikipedia, "8K resolution").
08:17:59 <fizzie> Sounds like a good advantage.
08:18:21 <fizzie> I'm sure many people watch their 52" TVs sitting half a meter away from them.
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08:26:18 <b_jonas> no wait, I was right the firs ttime
08:26:33 <b_jonas> I allocate an array of size 32 bytes per pixel in the image, plus a very small overhead
08:26:53 <b_jonas> so it would overflow an int32_t for a 8192*8192 image
08:33:51 <myname> "hey, i know, i make ANOTHER bot that interprets bf"
08:34:11 <Virgolang> you can look into Virgobeta's repo on GitHub
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08:37:23 <ashl> yes, an IRC bot that implements piet would be good
08:37:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: That doesn't sound big enough. I mean, 8192 * 8192 * 32 = 2^12 * 2^12 * 2^5 = 2^(12 + 12 + 5) = 2^29.
08:38:22 <ashl> i for one regularly type out piet programs on IRC
08:38:47 <ashl> Virgolang: can you please add a piet interpreter to the bot
08:39:03 <ashl> you could also add a piet IDE to the bot's tk interface
08:42:14 <fizzie> Slightly related: xvinfo reports the maximum size of hardware-accelerated videos (for Xv, anyway), and as I've switched graphics cards (Matrox Mystique 220 to G200 to G450 to a series of GeForce cards I couldn't recall the names of, to GTX 660) I think that's been steadily growing; I remember seeing sizes around 2048x2048, 8192x8192 and the current one says 16384x16384.
08:42:55 <b_jonas> let me count it again on my fingers
08:43:18 <fizzie> 2^29 is a lot of fingers.
08:43:32 <b_jonas> yes, that's probably why I made a mistake
08:43:35 <fizzie> There's a song about having too many fingers.
08:44:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, you've made the mistake
08:44:25 <fizzie> I was just testing you.
08:44:40 <fizzie> I knew that, but somehow mungled when verifying.
08:44:59 <fizzie> I mean, I obviously know that 12-bit color is 4096 and so on.
08:45:05 <b_jonas> so you don't have enough fingers either
08:45:20 <fizzie> "Too many fingers / have I got in my hand / I think there happened a creature / an alien creature", paraphrasing the song.
08:45:37 <fizzie> (It rhymes better in Finnish.)
08:45:47 <ashl> does it also grammar in finnish?
08:46:05 <fizzie> ashl: It's kind of nonstandard grammar also in Finnish, so I tried to be true to the original.
08:46:41 <fizzie> ("Liikaa sormia / ompi mulla kädessä / taisi käydä olio / avaruus-olio.")
08:47:36 <fizzie> It goes on to lament the plurality of fingers, and seeking for a way to get rid of them.
08:48:53 <Virgolang> it downloads the piet image and starts interpreting
08:51:14 <ashl> oh, i was hoping it would interpret colour codes in the IRC message
08:58:53 <myname> ashl: you could even interpret the text itself
08:59:02 <myname> let's add more dimensions
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09:09:00 <b_jonas> Ok, second question. In what turn-based strategy games is there a voluntary conduct of never escaping from a fight except before your first move, whether by running away or by magically teleporting away with some item or magic?
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09:09:42 <Virgolang> virgobeta's prefix is =. (fixed clashing with gribble)
09:09:46 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: hi bf ul join unlambda help
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10:08:44 <izabera> uhm i'm reading this link that Jafet showed http://julesjacobs.github.io/2015/06/17/disqus-levenshtein-simple-and-fast.html
10:09:16 <izabera> i only want words with levenshtein distance = 1 from my word
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10:43:29 <fizzie> It's the same asymptotic complexity. I don't think you can say much more without benchmarking. Also, yours is the Damerau-Levenshtein distance.
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10:59:59 <athenabot> Athena, Version: 0.97b ---- Codname: Twisty Turtle. Commands: ath.bf, ath.be, ath.ul, ath.eval, ath.join <channel>, ath.[d,b,h]2[d,b,h], ath.ccount, ath.time, ath.list, ath.leave, ath.reload, ath.source, ath.xkcd, ath.tr
11:06:20 <b_jonas> Third question. In linux with vga text mode console, how do you control the cursor shapes, that is, which scanlines of the character it occupies?
11:09:40 <bender|> I don't think you can, if you want to stick to the standard libraries.
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11:31:40 <b_jonas> bender|: I don't care about standard libraries. I want an escape sequence or an ioctl.
11:32:14 <b_jonas> I looked at the manual and didn't find one
11:32:20 <b_jonas> but it's unlikely that there isn't a way.
11:32:32 <b_jonas> Maybe I should look in the kernel sources.
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11:34:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/Google
11:34:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google
11:34:38 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
11:34:40 <athenabot> Title: Google - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
11:35:20 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: help leave hi google joinst join unlambda ul bf
11:35:34 <VirgoBeta> -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
11:35:34 <VirgoBeta> -> http://esolangs.org/wiki/malbolge
11:36:19 <VirgoBeta> -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
11:36:19 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/Antnatan
11:36:19 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/liucija.razguviene
11:36:23 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
11:36:30 <VirgoBeta> -> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~sws/pubs/sbs13.pdf
11:36:30 <VirgoBeta> -> https://igor.io/2014/10/04/end-the-war-on-tabs.html
11:36:30 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/anastasia.mihailovskaia?fref=nf
11:36:34 <athenabot> Title: Department of Computer Science
11:36:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Language_list
11:36:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/Antnatan
11:36:37 <VirgoBeta> -> https://www.facebook.com/liucija.razguviene
11:36:37 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
11:36:41 <athenabot> An error occurred while processing the link.
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11:55:34 <myname> don't interfer with other bots
11:56:53 <myname> the commonly used way to go is to prepend every output with a zero-width space
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13:30:39 <ashl> i would have used ♍ as the prefix
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13:39:32 <myname> go ahead, it will likely not become a bot prefix
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13:41:07 <izabera> how about using the zero width space as a trigger
13:41:33 <myname> go ahead and get banned
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15:05:57 <b_jonas> I wanted to ask something about terminals
15:06:27 <b_jonas> In linux with vga text mode console, how do I control the cursor shapes, that is, which scanlines of the character it occupies?
15:06:51 <ais523> =bf +++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++[>++++>++>++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>>---.++++.------------.+++++++++++.<<++++.<++.>>+++.+.>+++++++++++++++++++++.+++..<<.>++.-.>.++.<----------------.>++++.<----.+.>------.<+++.<<+++++.
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15:06:59 <b_jonas> There's bound to be a control sequence or ioctl for this, but I haven't seen one in the docs. I haven't yet searched in the Linux source.
15:07:09 <ais523> Virgolang: looks like it's outputting \r as newline, that'll also need escaping
15:07:15 <ais523> (i.e. replacing with " \ ")
15:07:28 <b_jonas> ais523: I think it's the irc server that interprets \r as newline
15:08:17 <Virgolang> blocks commands from who are in its ban list
15:08:32 <Virgolang> and it saves time, reason and ban count
15:09:09 <b_jonas> ais523: and an unconnected question: In what turn-based strategy games is there a voluntary conduct of never escaping from a fight except before trying any other move. Escaping can count plain running away, or magically teleporting with an item etc.
15:09:14 <ais523> b_jonas: "Ioctl's are undocumented Linux internals, liable to be changed without warning."
15:09:20 <ais523> could explain why I can't find one for cursor size
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15:09:34 <b_jonas> ais523: well sure, but the console_ioctl manpage documents them.
15:09:40 <ais523> b_jonas: you mean a tracked conduct?
15:09:50 <ais523> there are some that track how many times you escape altogether
15:09:53 <ais523> =bf +++++++++++++.>++++++++++++++[>++++>++>++++++++>++++++<<<<-]>>>>---.++++.------------.+++++++++++.<<++++.<++.>>+++.+.>+++++++++++++++++++++.+++..<<.>++.-.>.++.<----------------.>++++.<----.+.>------.<+++.<<+++++.
15:10:00 <ais523> seems to be working now
15:10:04 <b_jonas> If you can point to how to change them with some higher level thing, like the kbd programs or a library, sure, I can figure out the ioctl from that I think.
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15:10:15 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: google join unlambda help ul hi bf joinst leave
15:10:25 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not a setting that I know how to change
15:10:31 <VirgoBeta> Same with join, but does not leaves current channel.
15:10:40 <b_jonas> Yes, conduct tracked by the game.
15:10:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think there are any which track "contested escapes"
15:11:09 <ais523> except possibly games where all escapes are contested due to game mechanics
15:11:39 <ais523> (Pokémon Ranger doesn't track escapes AFAIK, maybe it does, but it has a rule that you can't escape a fight unless one of your opponents is damaged)
15:12:43 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking of this because some dosish programs use two different non-invisible cursor sizes to indicate some sort of state, such as insert mode vs overstrike mode
15:13:08 <b_jonas> usually two out of (block, lower half block, low line).
15:14:10 <ais523> I seem to remember it was settable in DOS, although I can't remember how
15:14:16 <ais523> some interrupt perhaps
15:14:43 <ais523> I assume the VGA cursor is a hardware feature?
15:14:48 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's a hardware feature
15:15:07 <b_jonas> you specify it as a starting scanline and ending scan line within the character
15:15:18 <b_jonas> it can be broken so you get a top and a bottom line, but nobody does that
15:15:41 <b_jonas> in graphics mode I think there's only soft cursor
15:15:54 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: google join unlambda help ul hi bf joinst leave
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15:18:03 <b_jonas> So I wondered if I could use two or three different visible cursors to indicate state in my programs. I can probably patch urxvt, but I'd prefer a standard interface like an escape sequence that at least some terminal already supports, over making up my own.
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15:18:35 <b_jonas> I know there's an escape sequence for making the cursor invisible or visible.
15:18:48 <b_jonas> But I don't (usually) want an invisible cursor.
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15:39:32 <VirgoBeta> Topics are: google join unlambda help ul hi bf joinst leave
15:39:58 <VirgoBeta> Moves Virgobeta to the specific channel. Recommended to use PM.
15:40:36 <VirgoBeta> -> http://www.learnpython.org/en/Hello,_World!
15:40:37 <VirgoBeta> -> http://introcs.cs.princeton.edu/11hello/HelloWorld.java.html
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16:24:23 <Virgolang> i am writing an configuration,ban,betascripting modules for my bot.
16:33:20 <shachaf> I would prefer if you did it somewhere else.
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16:44:07 <oerjan> ais523: yo i'm tempted to do a #fixyourconnection ban...
16:44:23 <ais523> oerjan: but it's not my connection and I don't have perms to fix it
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16:44:36 <oerjan> although mostly because of how ##nomic looks, which doesn't help.
16:44:37 <ais523> I am aware that it's broken
16:46:00 <zzo38> Is it possible to do SSH with a one-time-pad (in addition to other security measures)?
16:48:45 <ashl> a cursory Internet Search suggests a simple way of doing it: http://www.volkerschatz.com/net/1timepad.html
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16:59:40 <ashl> how do you intend to get the pad to the server
17:00:15 <zzo38> Presumably with a disk.
17:06:55 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: leaving).
17:09:02 * ashl wonders what zzo38 is doing that requires such security
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17:15:04 <HackEgo> olist 1004: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
17:15:29 <FireFly> zzo38: kind of impractical though to only be able to transfer a set amount of data (until the pad runs out)
17:19:23 <ashl> `` cat bin/olist
17:19:24 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit \ shachaf \ oerjan \ Sgeo \ FireFly \ boily \ nortti
17:19:52 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
17:20:48 <ashl> i don't understand.
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17:56:43 <Virgolang> its name is temporarily virgotheta
17:56:48 <VirgoTheta> Topics are: config bf help joinst addban hi bantime leave google banwhy ul unlambda join
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17:59:46 <quintopia> without i/o a language is not worth being a language?
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18:01:30 <HackEgo> pbflist: shachaf Sgeo quintopia ion
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18:20:53 <kallisti> Hello I am a new person so this place is new to me what are the new things happening here?
18:21:33 <myname> people doing weird stuff
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18:23:54 <kallisti> so I went back to my old wikipedia stuff a while ago, and found that a terrible metaspace essay I wrote in 2006 is still there, and has been nominated for deletion 5 times.
18:24:00 <kallisti> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Wikipedia:Don%27t-give-a-fuckism_(5th_nomination)
18:24:35 <HackEgo> kallisti: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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18:25:08 <kallisti> ais523: I'm actually not new but thanks. I guess I haven't been here in so long that I might as well be new.
18:25:11 <ais523> currently the main activity in-channel is Virgolang testing a bot; however there are various people working on esolang projects on teh side
18:25:30 <ais523> I've resurrected The Underlambda Project, now with capital letters
18:25:50 <ais523> so far I have a compiler that compiles brainfuck into an unimplemented language; the compiler itself is written in a different unimplemented language
18:25:54 <ais523> as a result I don't have much of a way to test it
18:26:14 <kallisti> wow seems very official with that capital letter
18:27:01 <kallisti> hm, sounds like there hasn't been much work into the field of testing unimplemented software. Perhaps this is something we need to progress?
18:27:37 <kallisti> perhaps write an unimplemented proof checking language for testing unimplemented code
18:29:18 <myname> ais523: didn't you learn unit testing!
18:30:10 <ais523> myname: doesn't that require some way to actually run the program?
18:30:40 <myname> nah, look at kallistis proposal
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18:32:58 <kallisti> I mean, there's a lot of work on implementations of things, but not a lot of people have developed unimplemented software and I think this is an area of development we could pioneer. There's certainly a lot of missing tools that need to be unimplemented in order to unimplement other software.
18:36:46 <kallisti> the way wikipedia works is actually insane
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18:46:14 <zzo38> Yes you are right, but it is better than nothing!
18:48:19 <tswett> kallisti: you know, conventional wisdom is that unimplemented software is difficult to use because it's unrunnable.
18:48:37 <tswett> I think we need to think twice before dismissing unrunnable software, though.
18:49:10 <myname> we have a wiki full of it
18:49:16 <zzo38> Is there a patch for xterm to implement ANSI music?
18:49:35 <tswett> Although most software produced nowadays is runnable, there's a large supply of unrunnable software as well.
18:49:46 <tswett> We need to determine what some ways are to put unrunnable software to good use.
18:50:00 <tswett> There are lots of things you can do with unrunnable software, after all, such as static analysis.
18:50:12 <zzo38> Yes, that can be the use
18:51:25 <ais523> kallisti: you see the "Previous AfDs for this article:" box (which is apparently misnamed as that's an MfD?) I implemented that
18:51:35 <ais523> (someone seems to have copied the code over to MfD)
18:53:04 <ais523> wow are there a lot of comments on the fourth MfD
18:55:01 <kallisti> ais523: I just find it simultaneously amusing and disturbing that an essay my 15 year-old self wrote in 2006 has been revised and maintained for 9 years and been in numerous burecratic processes, and linked on approx. 1500 different meta-pages
18:55:16 <ais523> that said, I'm also responsible for the code behind Wikipedia's current AfD process, I'm surprised it hasn't been rewritten since
18:56:31 <kallisti> ais523: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_prophet_wizard_of_the_crayon_cake also this is what happens when you let anyone change your user page for 9 years
18:57:01 <ais523> oh right, as soon as you linked that I remembered that kallisti=CakePropher
18:57:07 <ais523> but somehow I'd forgotten before then
18:57:29 <kallisti> mostly unchanged since last I looked, but still has recent edits. probably a lot of "vandalism" reverts
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19:41:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44134&oldid=44129 * Hppavilion1 * (+8) Reworded some stuff
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20:04:42 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
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20:28:39 <hppavilion[1]> Can someone read over my current ISA design and critique it?
20:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/docs/setdocs.txt
20:30:26 <zzo38> OK let me to see too
20:30:42 <hppavilion[1]> Unless, of course, you download it and use NP++ or something
20:31:03 <hppavilion[1]> Those are just the way they're represented in the executables
20:31:30 <lambdabot> dict provides: dict-help all-dicts bouvier cide devils easton elements foldoc gazetteer hitchcock jargon thesaurus vera wn world02
20:31:32 <ais523> huh, strangely enough I was thinking about something myself recently
20:31:37 <ais523> (asm with varargs opcodes)
20:32:28 <ais523> however, my aim was a little different: it was to try to create a compressed executable format
20:32:38 <ais523> where the instruction encodings for a given program were as short as possible
20:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> And it isn't compressed at all (EVERY argument is 64 bits xD)
20:32:58 <ais523> what happens when you divide by zero?
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20:33:35 <ais523> hmm, Unicode asm, that's new
20:33:57 <ais523> I assume this is intended as a VM bytecode rather than a processor machien code?
20:34:39 <ais523> meh, apart from the crazy arithmetic operators like sin (which shouldn't be too hard to implement), doing all this in Verity would be pretty easy
20:35:00 <ais523> assuming you can come up with some consistent definition of what stdin/stdout/stderr are and the like
20:35:03 <shachaf> "We identify a timing channel in the floating point instructions of modern x86 processors: the running time of floating point addition and multiplication instructions can vary by two orders of magnitude depending on their operands. We develop a benchmark measuring the timing variability of floating point operations and report on its results. We use floating point data timing variability to demonstrate practical attacks on the security of the ...
20:35:05 <ais523> actually, I do have one piece of advice
20:35:09 <shachaf> ... Firefox browser (versions 23 through 27) and the Fuzz differentially private database. Finally, we initiate the study of mitigations to floating point data timing channels with libfixedtimefixedpoint, a new fixed-point, constant-time math library."
20:35:17 <ais523> don't assume a specific number of standard streams; rather, have "stream handles" which are integers
20:35:36 <ais523> so instead of FLSHOUT, have a FLSH instruction that takes a stream handle as an argument, and flushes that stream
20:35:45 <int-e> two orders of magnitude, ouch...
20:35:46 <ais523> likewise for input, output, etc.
20:36:37 <ais523> that way, an implementation can decide what I/O sources it supports, without needing new special-case opcodes for new platforms
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20:36:51 <ais523> (I also suggest you use 0 for stdin, 1 for stdout, 2 for stderr)
20:37:54 <ais523> and Verity is my day job; the website about it (not my website) is up at http://veritygos.org/
20:38:21 <ais523> it includes a compiler download, if you want to experiment with it; the license is unfortunate but not unusable
20:39:12 <ais523> ooh, I just came across fsize/readf
20:39:17 <ais523> there is a TOCTOU security bug there
20:39:26 <ais523> because someone could make the file larger in between the fsize and readf instructions
20:39:43 <ais523> in which case readf would go corrupt some of your memory
20:40:12 <ais523> what do you do if a file contains a NUL byte, btw? AFAICT it's possible to read such files, but not write them
20:41:09 <ais523> finally, I'm a little unclear on how CATCH works; how does the VM search for a CATCH instruction after the HALT instruction runs?
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20:41:45 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: Basically, yes. But only if the HALT's exit value isn't 0
20:41:57 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I understand that it does search for one
20:42:05 <ais523> but how does it know where to look?
20:42:16 <ais523> there are a couple of ways I can see this going
20:42:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44135&oldid=42781 * 108.53.252.27 * (+0) /* Brainfuck interpreter */
20:42:40 <hppavilion[1]> I was planning on prototyping the interpreter for the machine code in Python then upgrading it to C later on
20:43:06 <ais523> one is to make it work like exceptions: it jumps back to a CATCH instruction that's already executed, and you have a complimentary UNCATCH instruction to remove a CATCH instruction from the list of executed CATCH instructions (probaly working like a stack, CATCH pushes a HALT handler, UNCATCH pops it)
20:43:32 <ais523> another is much the same but with no UNCATCH, rather a CATCH registers a handler for a particular exit code, and another CATCH with the same code overwrites it
20:43:48 <ais523> and another is to scan the entire program looking for an appropriate CATCH, in which case you've basically got a COME FROM/label pair
20:44:24 <ais523> have you never come across COME FROM before?
20:44:24 <FireFly> shachaf: where is that from?
20:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> I have added estericism to my ISA without even trying xD
20:44:41 <shachaf> FireFly: There was a seminar at Berkeley about it, apparently.
20:45:49 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: In the current design, it knows where to look by making HALT basically behave like a "GLIDE" instruction
20:45:59 <hppavilion[1]> It stops executing code until it reaches a CONTINUE
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20:53:32 <ais523> hmm, it depends on what sort of asm you're going for
20:53:56 <ais523> the thing is, immediate instructions for every arithmetic instruction would be an explosion of opcodes
20:54:11 <ais523> so the normal way this is handled in a machine code is with a prefix that means "immediate", or by setting some bits that mean "immediate"
20:54:32 <ais523> in the case of the asm you're writing, you can do a prefix pretty easily just by doing an immediate load into a register
20:54:48 <ais523> oh, in that case, use some of your high bits for things like "immediate"
20:55:01 <ais523> or "indirect memory access" (that's one you're missing, I think, and have no way to replicate)
20:56:01 <ais523> or "16-bit 16-bit 16-bit 16-bit 16-bit indirect plus the same address plus zero"
20:58:18 <ais523> genuine data access mode output by gcc
20:58:51 <ais523> the encoding of the entire command 66 66 66 66 66 2e 0f 1f 84 00 00 00 00 00, which is not surprising as it's such a complex access mode
20:59:03 <ais523> this might also give you a clue as to /why/ gcc did that
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21:00:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44136&oldid=44058 * 100.1.142.136 * (+19)
21:01:18 <ais523> (the biggest clue is probably the redundant "16-bit" prefixes)
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21:05:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44137 * 100.1.142.136 * (+119) Created page with "!!SuperPrime is a language that is a low byte prime checker. The only command is An implementation in Pyth >2lPQ"
21:06:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44138&oldid=44137 * 100.1.142.136 * (+21)
21:08:42 <int-e> . o O ( Is somebody testing their esolang generator? )
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21:23:26 <fizzie> Phew. First modernized piece of plottery from the move of old /egostats to the new thing: http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_heat_position/
21:23:38 <fizzie> (Might be pretty broken.)
21:23:47 <fizzie> (But also more functionality than before.)
21:25:55 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, it now has a dependency on cloudflare that it didn't before
21:26:00 <ais523> don't mind, just a little surprised
21:27:36 <ais523> and yet again, margins clearly looks different from anything else
21:29:06 <fizzie> Yeah, I picked d3 from the CDN since I'm still prototyping. Might just host the copy locally.
21:29:25 <fizzie> Clicking the rows switches to a "single tape length across each opponent" view.
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21:30:23 <fizzie> (Added some instructions on the plot page.)
21:31:08 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I've been modernizing the zemhill visualizations, at http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_heat_position/
21:31:23 <fizzie> Or scratch the plural, since there's still only one.
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21:37:12 <kallisti> anyone know how those checkbox captchas work?
21:37:51 <ais523> kallisti: most random-attack spambots leave checkboxes alone; some check every checkbox or uncheck every checkbox
21:37:59 <ais523> so a good checkbox captcha will work against random attacks
21:38:07 <ais523> obviously it's useless against someone who's attacking your site specifically
21:38:10 <fizzie> Or is this about the reCAPTCHA single-checkbox check?
21:39:05 <fizzie> I think that one officially works based on "signals".
21:39:58 <ais523> fizzie: FR: date the program was added to the hill, on the scores page
21:40:54 <izabera> it's just a meaningless checkbox and they're only serving that kind of captcha to users that are very likely humans
21:40:56 <fizzie> Would that be the last-modified date, or original-add-by-that-name? I guess the former.
21:41:12 <ais523> fizzie: I thought about that too, the former is probably the case
21:41:14 <fizzie> izabera: According to the official explanation, they do use the checkbox click too.
21:41:31 <Taneb> I keep getting captchas that are like "select all the pickup trucks"
21:41:39 <fizzie> Taneb: That's the mobile version, I think.
21:41:55 <Taneb> fizzie, I did get it on an actual computer, I think
21:42:12 <izabera> what's not to like in them?
21:42:25 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: They could add a "I'm not a robot, but I'd like to OCR some text" link.
21:42:25 <ais523> the current batch of OCR CAPTCHAs, I can't solve even as a human
21:42:46 <ais523> I actually suspect that even correct answers are being rejected, with JS off
21:42:47 <izabera> they scanned them all already
21:42:53 <ais523> but yes, they actually ran out of books to scan
21:43:13 <fizzie> I've also heard people complain about the street view house number thing.
21:46:34 <hppavilion[1]> And spambots that are created via those captchas go fucking berserk on that website
21:46:48 <izabera> isn't that the whole reason they invented captchas?
21:48:17 <izabera> http://musicmachinery.com/2009/04/27/moot-wins-time-inc-loses/
21:48:50 <izabera> already been done and of course it's stupid because humans are expensive
21:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> Virgolang: Instead of BetaScript, why not just create a Python API?
21:50:37 <Virgolang> each event has 1 field, 1 register and 1 running function.
21:51:04 <hppavilion[1]> Make sure it gets everything from a plugins folder
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21:53:36 <FireFly> Eastish Europe then, I presume
21:55:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DinoD123 * New user account
22:02:12 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think you should include the document of how the instructions encoding is working?
22:02:15 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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22:16:31 <Taneb> Achievement unlocked: be in a supermarket as it closes
22:17:22 -!- darkl0ck has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:20:06 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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22:29:09 <coppro> Taneb: as in, you were kicked out, or they didn't notice you?
22:29:27 <Taneb> coppro, they were quite friendly
22:29:28 <myname> computer science courses that don't exist, but should: http://prog21.dadgum.com/210.html
22:29:38 <Taneb> coppro, I bought my milk, left, and they closed the door behind me
22:30:11 <oerjan> bah that happens to me regularly. except without the milk.
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22:30:41 <Taneb> Got there at 22:58, left at 23:01
22:30:53 <oerjan> hey same opening hours too
22:32:56 <oerjan> in other news, the strange alarm i complained about yesterday came from my own apartment's stove top tdh except i could have figured it out _before_ i'd slept uneasily for 3 hours.
22:33:29 * oerjan then got up and got the idea of testing with the circuit breakers
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22:39:46 <coppro> I have officially contributed to Idris
22:42:36 <coppro> I made a function into an instance of Uninhabited
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22:48:30 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: You should describe how is instruction encodings for your instruction set?
22:50:30 -!- Virgolang has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:50:30 <shachaf> 00:48 <@DarwinElf> anyone become a monad yet?
22:53:06 <Taneb> shachaf, I am a monad
22:53:12 <Taneb> I travel around with no permanent home
22:53:22 <zzo38> That is strange question.
22:53:53 <Taneb> Or is that a nomad?
22:54:21 <zzo38> I think that is nomad? I don't know
22:54:36 <zzo38> I have the dictionary I can look in dictioary.
22:55:52 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.
22:56:06 <zzo38> Nomad is a person who choose to roam, member of people without a fixed location, wandering from place to place
22:56:40 <Taneb> Yes that was the joke I was making
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22:59:35 <shachaf> Taneb: I used to think "frankly" meant "Franklin" tdnh
23:02:20 <oerjan> franklin, my dear, i don't give a damn
23:02:31 <shachaf> oerjan: it was from that phrase exactly
23:02:38 <shachaf> oerjan: there was this garfield comic strip
23:02:48 <shachaf> what's-his-name was looking at the mirror and saying that
23:02:53 -!- edwardk has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:02:56 <oerjan> do you know where that phrase is from twh
23:03:03 <shachaf> and garfield said that mustaches make people think they're people they think they're not
23:03:21 <shachaf> so i thought what's-his-name thought he was franklin
23:03:39 -!- ocharles__ has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:04:13 -!- yorick_ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:04:32 <shachaf> anyway apparently it's from a film called gone with the wind which i haven't seen but i think i've looked it up before
23:05:16 <fizzie> @tell ais523 Added date-tracking and output in the JSON report (7-line patch), but now I can't recall how to run this locally to test it. Will try to get to it later.
23:05:44 -!- Patashu has joined.
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23:06:07 * oerjan doesn't remember seeing it either, but the quote is too famous
23:06:28 -!- yorick has joined.
23:06:55 <Taneb> And here was me thinking it was from one of the earlier Carry On films
23:10:47 <oerjan> hm not sure i've heard of those before
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23:12:19 <Taneb> oerjan, British films, bawdy is the appropriate adjective
23:12:47 * oerjan now looks up "bawdy" just to be sure
23:13:07 <oerjan> pretty much what i thought
23:17:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Virgo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44139&oldid=44134 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) /* What is the current process? */ Combined a link into a word
23:18:16 <izabera> i have a job interview on wednesday
23:18:26 <izabera> can you help me to prepare for it?
23:18:39 <izabera> maybe suggest some coding problem to solve
23:22:21 <Taneb> Where is your job interview, izabera ?
23:23:30 <Taneb> I don't think I could ever work in London
23:23:40 <Taneb> Cities that big kind of scare me, you know?
23:23:50 <Taneb> York's the biggest place I've lived since I was 4
23:24:11 <Taneb> There's just, like, so much
23:24:16 <Jafet> Isn't London in the same landmass as York?
23:24:26 <Taneb> Jafet, yes, that is the case
23:24:33 <Taneb> However they are a few hundred miles apart
23:25:33 <Taneb> And London has about 130 times as many people as York I think
23:28:04 <oerjan> did you know London was the second city in the world to ever grow beyond 1 million inhabitants hth
23:30:57 <oerjan> it rose, then fell again, a thousand years before the rest
23:31:54 <oerjan> that greatly increases the chance i am not spreading nonsense
23:32:10 <Taneb> izabera, the roman empire was a ridiculous over-centralized crazy thing that probably didn't make much sense to exist
23:32:20 <oerjan> ah there's the wikipedia list
23:32:22 <izabera> how much do we know about delhi or beijing in those years?
23:32:33 <Taneb> A surprising amount, I believe
23:32:34 <oerjan> well beijing wasn't even _founded_
23:32:38 <Taneb> I mean, not me personally
23:32:55 <Taneb> I know like nothing about non-European history really
23:32:57 <izabera> i dunno shit about geography
23:33:05 <izabera> not to mention historic geography
23:33:19 <oerjan> well maybe not entirely new, but it was only in relatively modern times it became the capital
23:34:09 <Taneb> Shanghai apparently has a similar story
23:34:46 <Taneb> London was the centre of the industrial revolution, which I believe was a Big Thing
23:34:59 <Taneb> And really was what let large cities exist
23:35:23 <Taneb> Like, in an economically sustainable manner
23:35:30 <oerjan> ok i'll have to say that by this wikipedia list this is rather disputed
23:37:02 <oerjan> ok not very supported at all. _every_ source listed has beijing before london
23:37:14 <shachaf> In 1980 Shenzhen had a population of ~30,000.
23:37:55 <oerjan> shenzhen did get some really good help
23:38:12 <oerjan> special economic area, or something
23:38:32 <shachaf> i read about it in a capitalism propaganda book
23:39:18 <shachaf> currently on an airplane, will lose connection in a few minutes
23:46:24 <oerjan> at least the sources agree that london was the first city above 2 million (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_largest_cities_throughout_history)
23:46:39 <hppavilion[1]> I want to build a computer modeled after an Oracle Machine
23:47:18 <oren_> I want a computer modeled after the oracle of delphi as depicted in the movie 300
23:47:26 <oerjan> make a quantum computer and you'll have a BQP oracle hth
23:48:27 <oerjan> also, new york first above 10 and tokyo first above 20
23:49:10 <oerjan> but those are all relatively modern, of course
23:49:30 <oren_> what is the city with highest population denisty
23:50:18 <oerjan> constantinople was no. 1 in between there without reaching a million
23:51:09 <oren_> actually,better question: of all square kilometres of the earth's surface, which square contains the most humans
23:52:09 <myname> if dbpedia were bigger ...
23:52:36 <oerjan> oren_: wikipedia has a population density list for capitals only https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_national_capitals_by_population
23:53:01 <oerjan> oh wait that's a redirect
23:53:08 <izabera> which square is the most deadly?
23:53:51 <oerjan> they made it a redirect and the target page doesn't contain the information
23:53:59 <izabera> the score of each square is the amount of people that died there since 2000 b.c.
23:59:09 <oerjan> this is the last version of the page with actual density https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_national_capitals_by_population_density&oldid=436304527
23:59:56 <oerjan> dhaka on top with 45508 / km^2
00:02:21 <fizzie> That's still like 20 square metres for everyone.
00:02:46 <Taneb> Anyway my fear of big cities is less about their density and more about the idea that you can start walking not see countryside for ages
00:03:09 <Taneb> Even here in York I live like 10 minutes away from some form of farm
00:03:15 <hppavilion[1]> I need to test something. Stand by for a single message consisting entirely of 'w's
00:03:24 <hppavilion[1]> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
00:04:02 <fizzie> Taneb: My temporary apartment was within sight of the Vauxhall City Farm.
00:04:08 -!- bb010g has joined.
00:04:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: it asks you what your irc client is
00:04:27 <Taneb> fizzie, that hardly counts
00:04:35 <fizzie> Taneb: They say it's countryside.
00:04:38 <fizzie> Taneb: "Vauxhall City Farm is a little piece of the countryside in central London."
00:04:52 <oerjan> i use irssi, which has a script you can enable for splitting. beats getting lines cut off.
00:04:58 <fizzie> Taneb: You get "all the sights, sounds and smells of rural life".
00:05:45 <fizzie> Are there real farms inside M25?
00:07:39 <fizzie> Taneb: York would be the fifth biggest city in Finland by population, if it were in Finland.
00:07:53 <fizzie> (And counting #1, #2 and #4 separately is a lie.)
00:08:05 <Taneb> fizzie, I can name maybe 2 cities in Finland
00:08:12 <Taneb> Which I think is more than most people I know
00:09:17 <pikhq> fizzie: The UK notion of "countryside" must be very different from the US notion. :)
00:09:48 <fizzie> I don't really know the UK notion, but I know there's multiple FI notions depending on who you ask.
00:10:31 <Taneb> It would take about 12 hours I think to cross London from the M25 to the M25 through the centre
00:10:39 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Could'a just asked <-- oh come on, i'm a nerd, i don't speak to people if i can ask a machine instead (cue for someone pasting counterexample)
00:10:40 <Taneb> For York and the A64, it'd take about 2
00:11:08 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: implement a solution to the problem from a much fnord style of channel for a while
00:12:03 <Taneb> Melbourne I find terrifying and I have lived there
00:12:45 -!- MDude has joined.
00:13:20 <fizzie> For the greater Helsinki area, it would take about 3 and a half hours for "Ring I", and 8 hours for "Ring III", although they're all just semicircles thanks to the coast.
00:13:27 <fizzie> (There is no Ring II.)
00:13:55 <fizzie> Well, there's a little bit of it, but it's mostly just a straight segment.
00:14:08 <oerjan> fizzie: i assume Helsinki and Espoo are two of the three, but which is the last one?
00:14:19 <fizzie> oerjan: Vantaa, which is #4.
00:15:06 <fizzie> (See: the former Helsinki-Vantaa airport, nowadays only Helsinki Airport, because it's just confusing to mention Vantaa.)
00:16:09 <fizzie> If the Wikipedia infobox title is truthful, it still has both cities in the Finnish and Swedish names, and they only dropped it from the English one.
00:16:30 <Taneb> The closest civilian airport to York is Leeds-Bradford
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00:18:00 <oerjan> Taneb: York would be the third largest city by population in norway, displacing trondheim
00:18:13 <fizzie> I like the local place names here, they sound much fancier than ours.
00:18:20 <Taneb> This doesn't exactly make it big!
00:18:24 <fizzie> "Bognor Regis", especially.
00:18:25 <Taneb> fizzie, where are you?
00:18:44 <fizzie> But I hear Bognor Regis as a final train destination at Victoria Station quite often.
00:19:04 <Taneb> You're like a single train ride from York!
00:19:57 <fizzie> We're going to Blackpool and Liverpool soonishly to meet with my wife's mother. That's up there about a Yorkish distance away, although with a slightly different direction.
00:20:24 <Taneb> That is also a single train ride from York
00:21:33 <oerjan> bognor regis sounds like a harry potter spell
00:22:18 <fizzie> There's also a place that I hear as Hexham in the announcements, but which probably isn't Hexham.
00:22:27 <Taneb> No, it wouldn't be
00:22:46 <Taneb> (you can get to Hexham from Carlisle, Newcaste, Glasgow, and I think Middlesborough)
00:23:11 <FireFly> Middlesborough sounds very average
00:23:29 <fizzie> I'm trying to find a list of trains from Victoria, but the live departure boards aren't very useful at this time of day.
00:23:37 <Taneb> FireFly, it's called that because it was founded at the midpoint between two monastaries
00:25:03 <Taneb> "Middlesbrough Priory was a priory in Middlesbrough"
00:25:17 <fizzie> There's Epsom, maybe I could be mishearing that in the noisy hall.
00:25:19 <Taneb> That is pretty much all the article on Middlesbrough priory says
00:25:45 <fizzie> There's also a train to Crystal Palace, which is another impressive-sounding name.
00:26:44 <fizzie> And to Dorking, which I'd assume people make bad jokes about.
00:27:09 <Taneb> Crystal Palace was a building built for a World's Fair, iirc
00:27:19 <Taneb> It burnt down at some point, something is telling me 1913
00:27:32 <fizzie> And to Reading, with its unexpected pronunciation, from Clapham Junction.
00:27:34 <Taneb> 1936, I had the wrong world war
00:27:41 <Jafet> I assume that Middlesex is home to people of average gender.
00:28:00 <Taneb> You would be correct
00:32:06 <Taneb> I think I will go to bed now
00:34:12 <fizzie> Sounds like a good idea.
00:35:46 -!- Bjarne_ has joined.
00:36:22 <HackEgo> Bjarne_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:37:42 <Bjarne_> So, does anything actually happen in here?
00:38:24 <fizzie> And I guess mostly off-topic things?
00:38:56 <oerjan> you actually joined just as one of the main talkers went to bed
00:39:03 <fizzie> I'd still claim the odds of esolangery happening are above the natural background levels.
00:39:09 <Bjarne_> Oh, well that's kinda funny.
00:39:30 <Bjarne_> I enjoy esolangery, occasionally.
00:39:40 <Bjarne_> Haven't built a language in a while though.
00:41:06 <Bjarne_> If- I remember, the last language I built was something stack-based.
00:41:42 <fizzie> As for "does anything actually happen", we do have hard data on that: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/
00:42:35 <Bjarne_> Hmm, I see that the peak of activity was in early 2012.
00:43:06 <Bjarne_> Wow, so this place has been around since 2003?
00:43:13 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
00:44:17 <fizzie> 01:44 -ChanServ(ChanServ@services.)- Registered : Jan 03 01:30:22 2003 (12y 36w 2d ago)
00:44:56 <Bjarne_> Hmm. Do @ ping notifications work here?
00:45:10 <Bjarne_> I come from a world of Stack Exchange chat, so that's what I'm used to.
00:45:55 <fizzie> Normally people say "target: Foo." if they're talking to someone who's currently online, or use lambdabot's "@tell target Something." feature if they're not.
00:46:24 <fizzie> (Most clients highlight the first form, and the second one will cause lambdabot to bother them later.)
00:46:56 <Bjarne_> Thanks. I'm very new to IRC
00:48:27 <oerjan> in fact lambdabot is a main reason for _not_ using @nick style here
00:48:40 <oerjan> @Bjarne_ <-- demonstration
00:49:00 <oerjan> as defense, i think lambdabot is older than both SO and twitter
00:49:28 <oren_> oh hey, there's a new person!
00:49:36 <oerjan> i'll have to look it up but lambdabot was 10 years just the other week
00:50:43 <fizzie> oerjan: Wikipedia's "Comparison of Internet Relay Chat bots" (a) doesn't contain fungot, but (b) lists "?" as lambdabot's "First public release - date".
00:50:56 <fizzie> fungot: So you guess you should go and edit the page?
00:50:56 <fungot> fizzie: it runs through all of them? with two ports on the mainboard? :s
00:51:01 <oren_> I probably shouldn't get too used to using 3 laptops at once
00:51:10 <oerjan> oh not combined. and twitter is older than i thought, but still not quite as old as lambdabot.
00:51:19 <FireFly> fizzie: wouldn't fungot editing the page violate WP:NPOV?
00:51:20 <fungot> FireFly: i love when " faq" doesn't mean " cleaner", somehow, in what system, and in perl do something like
00:51:24 <FireFly> (and also be a terrible idea in general)
00:51:37 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
00:51:43 <fizzie> fungot: Talk Wikipedia to me.
00:51:43 <fungot> fizzie: forbidding polish language is more appropriate, or at least present a scientifically evident reason for this is the same as ' ' cavalrymen" were frequently fnord in ancient wars. the timeline had just grown too long, so it fnord past the network censors. in popular use, ", because it isn't neutral because of the passage of time.
00:52:01 <fizzie> FireFly: Yeah, seems that it isn't neutral.
00:52:07 <fizzie> But we could still forbid Polish.
00:52:13 <oerjan> fizzie: well i'm going by lambdabot's registration date
00:52:14 <Jafet> fungot wp seems heavy on fnord.
00:52:14 <fungot> Jafet: ok, i can assure you that all the language material should be somewhere. what do the rest of them are fnord/ fte, or larger than fnord fnord ( user fnord) 20:32, 29 december 2007 ( utc)
00:52:29 <fizzie> Jafet: Bad data preprocessing, mostly.
00:52:55 <fizzie> Well, and maybe bad training parameters too, but things like signatures really should've been cleaned up.
00:53:14 <oren_> Sometimes it's better to look things up in an appropriate book on openlibrary
00:54:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[!!SuperPrime]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44140&oldid=44138 * SuperJedi224 * (+102)
00:56:32 <oren_> hackego anounces whenver someone changes the wiki
00:56:56 <Bjarne_> Now that's really helpful.
00:57:01 <oerjan> fizzie: i think forbidding polish language might be historically insensitive hth
00:58:32 -!- Bjarne_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
00:59:26 <fizzie> oerjan: Maybe they could get someone else's language as compensation.
01:02:30 <oerjan> fizzie: i think the last time, they got either german or russian
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01:03:05 <fizzie> Oh, yeah, the builtins are triggered only by the command name and a space.
01:03:19 <fizzie> Well, those of them that take an argument.
01:04:37 <fizzie> You could do the same for ^str, ^bf, ^ul.
01:05:55 <fizzie> And some owner-only commands, like ^raw, ^code -- those would become user-defined commands that you can only execute without input, because otherwise they'd trigger the builtin, which would just ignore it.
01:09:34 <FireFly> ^def bf (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
01:09:34 <fungot> Usage: ^def <command> <lang> <code>
01:09:40 <FireFly> ^def bf bf (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
01:10:02 <FireFly> ^def bf ul (^bf -- evaluates brainfuck)S
01:10:06 <fungot> ^bf -- evaluates brainfuck
01:15:07 -!- ^v has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
01:15:17 <fizzie> ^def ul ul (^ul -- evaluates Underload)
01:15:30 <fizzie> ^def ul ul (^ul -- evaluates Underload)S
01:15:33 <fungot> ^ul -- evaluates Underload
01:16:25 <fizzie> I think that may have displaced the brainfuck ul interp, but you couldn't use it anyway, and maybe it was already lost.
01:16:47 <oerjan> <myname> don't interfer with other bots <-- it wasn't eir fault this time, athenabot is just stupid
01:16:58 <fizzie> And anyway even when you could use it the time limits hardly let you do anything with it.
01:18:14 <oerjan> myname: it reacts to _any_ url, without any prefix.
01:18:28 <oerjan> i kicked it once before
01:18:32 <myname> that is indeed pretty stupid
01:19:15 -!- bender has joined.
01:20:00 <fungot> echo reverb rev rot13 rev2 fib wc ul cho choo pow2 source help hw srmlebac uenlsbcmra scramble unscramble asc ord prefixes tmp test celebrate wiki chr ha rainbow rainbow2 welcome me tell eval elikoski list ping def a thanks tmp2 8ball rreree rerere botsnack bf
01:20:35 <oerjan> still not run out of room
01:20:49 <oren_> did I remember to add my bf interpreter to the wiki?
01:21:03 <oerjan> i don't remember whether you did
01:21:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Even unusual ones like <ircs://irc.freenode.net/#esoteric>?
01:21:38 <oren_> (the one that works by fucking with the stack in an entirely illegel way)
01:21:55 <shachaf> oerjan: so when does belkar show up to heroically and uncharacteristically sacrifice himself
01:21:56 <oerjan> pikhq: ok the "any" was more for position in the line
01:22:26 <oerjan> shachaf: erm excuse me i haven't read oots yet since i haven't got to that part in the logs my being backlogged keeps escalating
01:22:32 <shachaf> pikhq: that uri scheme irks me hth
01:23:04 <FireFly> I'm hoping possessed Durkon is going down soon
01:23:09 <pikhq> shachaf: Maybe, but it's quite valid. If not quite standard because there isn't a registered one for IRC-over-SSL, just for plain IRC.
01:23:37 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
01:23:37 <shachaf> pikhq: it was just a pun ok
01:24:01 <pikhq> urn:pun-opinion:grumble%20grumble
01:24:30 <shachaf> you missed some fun puns in channels you aren't in hth
01:30:25 <pikhq> Also, grumble it's the weekend, how food.
01:31:44 <oerjan> hm was that summoned weasel a thing, it somehow rings a bell
01:32:07 <FireFly> He did have that bag o' tricks way back
01:32:53 <shachaf> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0144.html
01:33:42 <shachaf> also e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html
01:33:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44141&oldid=43113 * Orenwatson * (+247) Added mine to list.
01:42:58 <oerjan> kallisti: hi new person
01:44:27 <FireFly> I think they've been around a while, at least the nick looks familiar
01:45:05 <oerjan> i'm sorry, but they clearly said in the logs that they're new hth
01:45:42 <oerjan> and that means it has to be true, or you could have your cake and eat it too
01:48:36 <pikhq> Oh jeeze, the Indian place I found near here that I quite like has a lunch buffet.
01:48:41 <pikhq> This is dangerous knowledge.
01:48:59 <pikhq> Great India Cuisine.
01:49:21 <pikhq> The name's not much, but so far I've been quite pleased.
01:49:49 <shachaf> Are you kidding? The name's great!
01:50:12 <pikhq> Okay, well, my impression is the name is accurate, so.
01:50:55 <shachaf> pikhq: Did you have any mules today?
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01:51:14 <shachaf> I heard there was a thing.
01:51:25 <pikhq> Maybe there was, but I missed it.
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02:23:02 <oren_> Jeff Atwood aka CodingHorror got fed up with the people on theDailyWtf criticizing and filing bugs to his forum software, discourse.
02:23:44 <oren_> He proceeded to ban everyone from TheDailyWtf from posting on the Meta.d discourse forum
02:24:20 <oren_> so now TheDailyWtf is deciding what forum doftwre to migrate to
02:25:43 <oren_> I had no idea there were so many people who take insults to their code personally
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02:27:01 <oren_> https://what.thedailywtf.com/t/how-can-this-be-so-wrong/51117 <-- record of the drama
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04:11:55 <zzo38> The other player have filled up their character sheets now, one aasimar and one drow; the player of the drow character wrote "Classified" as the alignment
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04:45:34 <zzo38> I don't like any of those URI schemes for IRC though
04:46:36 <zzo38> It should be <ircp://irc.freenode.net:6666/join/%23esoteric> or whatever host/port/channel/etc; the channel name is not a fragment identifier and you may want to point to stuff other than channels too
04:47:15 <pikhq> zzo38: irc://irc.freenode.net:6666/esoteric is valid, as is irc://irc.freenode.net:6666/zzo38,isnick
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04:50:14 <zzo38> The first one doesn't specify the channel prefix either, and there are other problems. Also some program seem to use it inconsistently; I have seen some places where the scheme is used that have the # and some that don't
04:51:24 <zzo38> (I don't like that syntax for nicknames either)
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04:58:21 <izabera> in freenode / can be part of a channel's name
04:58:42 <zzo38> Yes, you should percent-encode it then, in my opinion, if making up the URI.
04:58:52 <zzo38> (Percentage signs also need to be percent-encoded)
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04:59:32 <pikhq> I believe it's also valid to percent encode it.
04:59:47 <pikhq> Percent encoding is a part of the generic URI syntax, at least.
05:00:25 <pikhq> zzo38: The scheme specifies that if you don't specify a channel prefix you assume #.
05:00:37 <pikhq> Otherwise, I agree, the syntax does use URI pretty poorly.
05:01:03 <pikhq> irc://irc.freenode.net/channel/%23esoteric feels more... correct.
05:02:14 <zzo38> It should be irc://[username[:password]@][host[:port]]/[path][?parameter][#part] like normal URI should be
05:02:21 <izabera> do you want/need the /channel part?
05:02:44 <pikhq> To distinguish between the server and an individual user on the server.
05:02:47 <zzo38> (I used /join/ instead of /channel/ but that's another way)
05:02:58 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, or help files or other stuff
05:03:18 <pikhq> irc://irc.freenode.net/nick/zzo38?msg=Oh%20hai or some such
05:03:45 <izabera> starting with %23 would be enough to distinguish a chan from a user
05:04:45 <zzo38> izabera: Yes, if it started with the encoded # or & or + or ! that means a channel and otherwise a nickname is one way, but it doesn't help in case you want to refer to help file and so on as well, I believe
05:05:29 <pikhq> Arguably in the protocol you could have a prefixless channel.
05:05:36 <pikhq> The prefixes are just a convention.
05:05:48 <pikhq> Though that'd collide with users.
05:06:09 <pikhq> (as one PRIVMSGs both channels and users)
05:08:25 <zzo38> There are help files on the server too, for many commands as well as to list what mode flags it accepts
05:08:57 <zzo38> (For example HELP UMODE lists the possible modes you can set on yourself)
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06:21:00 <zzo38> What level(s) and/or other suggestion/complaints to make this spell? http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/spell/magic_ink
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06:24:02 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
06:28:40 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘{’
06:29:44 <zzo38> It is Haskell; for lists you need square brackets, although I don't think you can divide a list by a number anyways.
06:30:41 <zzo38> > fmap (\x -> x/7^(3)+8) [34,67,80]
06:30:43 <lambdabot> [8.099125364431487,8.19533527696793,8.2332361516035]
06:31:17 <zzo38> > [34,67,80]/7^(3)+8
06:31:19 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M544953426060485496931545’
06:31:19 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
06:32:00 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M207693433857803641131569’
06:32:00 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
06:32:26 <zzo38> That's wrong; you need to use fmap or other stuff like that.
06:32:54 <zzo38> What answer are you expecting?
06:33:30 <j-bot> Walpurgisnacht: 67 8
06:36:10 <zzo38> Is that what you want it to do?
06:37:35 <zzo38> Do you know Haskell programming?
06:38:25 <zzo38> Lambdabot is doing Haskell though
06:39:40 <Walpurgisnacht> I was just seperating some stacks and I needed the precise number close to [ 67 , 0 ] 8 but I didn't know if I was getting it right
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07:02:21 <Sgeo> I found what I believe to be a judge's mistake in a 1999 FRC round
07:03:20 <Sgeo> I just found a horrible problem with this rule. If Frconium is Tier 16, and you mix it with an Tier 1 element in extreme proporions, you should get (by 126:11) the @ version of an element on Tier 15. But according to this rule there is no Tier 15! Unless or until someone points out a flaw in this reasoning, I will have to change my Judgement on this to INVALID.
07:04:09 <Sgeo> Flaw in that reasoning: Tier 1 elements, when mixed in extreme proportion, do NOT result in @ versions of elements, as noted in the validity notes for 11
07:04:12 <Sgeo> http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/round126.txt
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08:47:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fission]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44142&oldid=43098 * 73.21.237.245 * (+63) Added categories
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09:22:55 <ais523> hmm, I'm reading something explaining the usage of an option/maybe type
09:23:25 <ais523> and gives as an example a function that divides two numbers, except it returns the "no value" option if the divisor is 0
09:23:40 <ais523> and immediately thought "but what if someone does INT_MIN / -1?"
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09:51:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44143&oldid=44135 * 109.240.117.169 * (+0) Undo revision 44135 by [[Special:Contributions/108.53.252.27|108.53.252.27]] ([[User talk:108.53.252.27|talk]])
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10:29:44 <ais523> that value for 0.8*73 looks suspect to me
10:30:12 <ais523> I wonder how easy it is to get binary floating point calculations to produce exact results in decimal
10:30:24 <b_jonas> oren_: ah, I see you've added more characters
10:30:24 <ais523> I guess you track error, and then if there's a short decimal representation within your error radius, you use that
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12:37:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44144&oldid=42643 * SuperJedi224 * (+251)
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13:58:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44145&oldid=44136 * SuperJedi224 * (-19)
13:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44146&oldid=43369 * SuperJedi224 * (+19)
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14:26:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44147&oldid=44036 * Timwi * (+447) Parsons Green
14:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44148&oldid=44147 * Timwi * (+27) formatting
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14:31:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44149&oldid=44148 * Timwi * (+113) move the single-operand instructions down so they’re not intermingled with the binary operators
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14:35:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44150&oldid=44149 * Timwi * (+142) /* Execution */ Caveat
14:36:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44151&oldid=44150 * Timwi * (+0) sp. Also, I changed the semantics of the start of the program in a previous edit and sneakily marked it as minor! Sorry!
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14:42:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44152&oldid=44151 * Timwi * (+12) mildly important
14:44:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44153&oldid=44152 * Timwi * (+59) clarify what “return” means
14:46:42 * tswett appends "1!" to his password in order to make it fulfill the requirements.
14:48:12 <ashl> that reminds me of those Password Policies which required users to change their password every couple of weeks
14:48:51 <ashl> i just put a counter on the end of my password which i incremented every time
14:58:58 <oren_> Use a base 36 counter
14:59:43 <oren_> @tell b_jonas yes I added devanagari and some arabic and more cyrillic
15:00:20 <oren_> right now i;m working on armenian
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15:21:20 <zzo38> When defining stuff that uses division I have also considered INT_MIN / -1
15:22:10 <zzo38> For example, QUACKVM specifies undefined behaviour in that case (also division by zero is not undefined; it will be reported to the program).
15:24:34 <oren_> if we define negation as flipping the bits then adding one, the answer to -INT_MIN is INT_MIN.
15:25:30 <oren_> for 4-bit ints: ~1000 = 0111 0111+1 = 1000
15:26:43 <oren_> a well deisgned program should probably avoid numbers near the edges of the representable range though
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15:37:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44154&oldid=44153 * Timwi * (-8) /* Execution */
15:38:10 <oren_> i have sometimes considered using ones-complement instead
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15:50:50 <oerjan> > [minBound, -minBound] :: [Int]
15:50:52 <lambdabot> [-9223372036854775808,-9223372036854775808]
16:00:16 <olsner> > minBound / -1 :: Int
16:00:19 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘/’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi...
16:00:32 <olsner> > minBound / (-1) :: Int
16:00:34 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from a use of ‘/’
16:00:34 <lambdabot> In the expression: minBound / (- 1) :: Int
16:00:58 <olsner> > div minBound (-1) :: Int
16:02:51 <olsner> div probably checks for this case and errors out without dividing ... I wonder if you can use unboxed ints in lambdabot
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16:08:08 <oerjan> > if True then error "test" else 1#
16:08:42 <oerjan> hm right that won't print
16:08:53 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘I#’
16:08:53 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘In’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
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16:09:39 <oerjan> you can make unboxed literals, but it's hard to use them for anything because none of the functions are imported
16:10:12 <ais523> > let x 1# = 1 in x 1#
16:10:20 <ais523> looks like you can also pattern match them?
16:10:22 <ais523> > let x 1# = 1 in x 2#
16:10:24 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:5-12: Non-exhaustive patterns in function x
16:10:38 <oerjan> ais523: # is the kind of unboxed values, yes
16:12:09 <oerjan> if I# were imported (from GHC.Exts or the like), it would be easier
16:12:12 <FireFly> Does that box any unboxed type or some such?
16:12:29 <oerjan> no, just Int, it's the data constructor for Ints
16:13:00 <oerjan> of course @src is unreliable but it has these examples
16:13:15 <oerjan> i think that Integer definition may be out of date.
16:13:49 <lambdabot> Graphics.Rendering.OpenGL.GL.VertexSpec data IntegerHandling
16:13:49 <lambdabot> Language.Haskell.TH.Syntax IntegerL :: Integer -> Lit
16:14:00 <ais523> hmm, I take it a ByteArray# doesn't know its own length?
16:14:19 <ais523> and thus a Haskell Integer can't store a value that's more than INT#_MAX bytes long
16:14:50 <ais523> (on a 32-bit system, I believe it's theoretically possible to have enough memory to be able to store such a value in theory)
16:14:54 <oerjan> data Integer = integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.S# !Int# | integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.Jp# {-# UNPACK #-}integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.BigNat
16:14:57 <oerjan> | integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.Jn# {-# UNPACK #-}integer-gmp-1.0.0.0:GHC.Integer.Type.BigNat
16:15:05 <oerjan> they split it according to sign now
16:15:17 <oerjan> and it's in a hidden module thus the noise
16:15:47 <fizzie> $ echo '2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*:.01-/' > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef
16:15:47 <fizzie> Floating point exception
16:15:50 <zzo38> And there is the "BigNat" type; what is their definition?
16:15:54 <fizzie> Fortunately, I don't think you can get fungot to do that.
16:15:54 <fungot> fizzie: i deleted the early childhood and marriage because latuff himself stated that neither of those counties allow any sort of evidence? what about the territories? fnord fnord george clark ( fnord english history: a fnord, which
16:16:41 <fizzie> Also, for some reason, "cfunge <(echo ...)" doesn't work -- it goes to an infinite 100% CPU-wasting loop somewhere.
16:17:21 <fizzie> (The extra :. was just for debugging.)
16:18:11 <FireFly> Maybe it's a feature to heat up the room during cold winter days
16:19:14 <ais523> how often is division actually used?
16:19:23 <ais523> even more so than subtraction, it's hard to implement in esolangs that don't have integers
16:19:33 <ais523> I guess I should add it to underlambda's standard library
16:19:51 <ais523> anyone know a good algo for dividing chuch numerals? bonus if it does something well-defined on functions that aren't church numerals
16:20:18 <oerjan> data BigNat = BN# ByteArray#
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16:21:22 <oerjan> ais523: actually ByteArray# isn't a single contiguous memory array
16:21:37 <ais523> oerjan: I was assuming tha the Int# was the length
16:22:40 <oerjan> i think it may have been number of "limbs", now it's not there any more
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16:27:51 <oerjan> hm wait it may be contiguous
16:27:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Slim]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44155 * Scoppini * (+1774) Created page for Slim
16:28:21 <oerjan> "A ByteArray# is a just a region of raw memory in the garbage-collected heap, which is not scanned for pointers. It carries its own size (in bytes)."
16:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Scoppini]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44156&oldid=41613 * Scoppini * (+14)
16:31:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44157&oldid=43935 * Scoppini * (+199) Added Slim
16:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44158&oldid=43899 * Scoppini * (+128) Added Slim
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16:49:36 <Melvar> Guys, guys! Someone just found the craziest thing in Idris.
16:50:36 <Melvar> If you use Doubles in types, unification uses float equality, so NaN will not unify with NaN.
16:50:54 <coppro> This allows you to get a NaN = NaN and a (NaN = NaN) -> Void
16:51:00 <coppro> but you can't prove Void because they won't unify
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16:56:17 <ais523> there's probably some really deep maths behind that
16:57:55 <Melvar> More problematically, it will presumably unify positive and negative zero, which will cause inconsistency as soon as some way to distinguish negative zero is added, which I was planning to do.
16:58:32 <coppro> (we just confirmed that it will)
16:59:53 <oren_> 1/+0 is positive infinity, 1/-0 is negative infintiy?
17:00:26 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘/’ [infixl 7] and prefix `-' [infixl 6] in the same infi...
17:00:50 <ais523> space is needed because it's otherwise a function that subtracts 0 from things, I take it?
17:02:23 <olsner> it is some weird special rule at least
17:02:45 <Melvar> ais523: No, prefix - is always prefix - in Haskell, IIRC.
17:02:58 <Melvar> The section meaning can’t be gotten that way.
17:03:12 <Melvar> Which is why that function exists.
17:03:38 <lambdabot> from the context (Num a, Num (a -> t))
17:03:38 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_117’: (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t
17:04:01 <Melvar> So you can say (subtract x) because (-x) does the other thing.
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17:13:40 <Melvar> > the ((False = True) -> Void) (\Refl impossible) $ cong {f = (> 0) . (1 /)} $ the (-0.0 = 0.0) Refl
17:13:41 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input ‘=’
17:13:48 <Melvar> ( the ((False = True) -> Void) (\Refl impossible) $ cong {f = (> 0) . (1 /)} $ the (-0.0 = 0.0) Refl
17:13:48 <idris-bot> case block in {val1} Void Refl Refl : Void
17:15:26 <Melvar> Now, does anyone know how to do bit-pattern equality on Double in Haskell?
17:16:26 <ais523> ooh, we've proved Void in Haskell?
17:16:43 <ais523> approximately how often does that happen? every few months?
17:16:51 <ais523> ah wait no, that's idris
17:17:14 <b_jonas> oren_: can you add the symbols representing control characters: [\x{4200}-\x{241f}]?
17:17:26 <ais523> > let x (- 0.0) = 1 in x 0.0
17:17:53 <ais523> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let x nan = 1 in x nan
17:18:13 <ais523> there is something of an inconsistency here
17:18:37 <b_jonas> oren_: these get some use. We use them (except for three) as substitutes on perlmonks to emit valid xml 1.0 (which doesn't allow most control characters) when a user-submitted text contains control characters.
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17:19:59 <oren_> b_jonas: Ok, i'm done armenian so ill do those next
17:20:30 <b_jonas> oren_: mind you, we ampersand-escape them so you won't see them directly in the xml source
17:20:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I have a challenge. Make a Magic card that causes trouble on an airport.
17:21:06 <zzo38> It is not so clear to me.
17:21:43 <b_jonas> eg. Name: Greater Terror. Cost: {2}{skull}. Rules text: Destroy target nonblack creature and/or target plane-
17:22:10 <b_jonas> swalker. Art: A rogue stabbing someone from the back with a small knife on a market square.
17:22:58 <b_jonas> That doesn't work because it couldn't be hyphenated that way, mind yuo.
17:25:25 <zzo38> OK, now I can understand though
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17:25:34 <b_jonas> (English text is almost never hyphenated on Magic cards, and even if it could be, the line wouldn't end there: it's large size text because the text is short, so it would be “Destroy target nonblack creature\nand/or target planeswalker.” and I think planeswalker can't be hyphenated after the "e" anyway.)
17:25:57 <zzo38> Maybe if other text is added to force it to be hyphenated there
17:27:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: the motivating example is http://mathoverflow.net/a/53738/35417
17:27:30 <Melvar> < ais523> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let x nan = 1 in x nan – In case it was unclear, the second nan is a pattern variable and thus x = const 1
17:28:02 <ais523> I'm not sure this is easily fixable, either
17:28:54 <ais523> > let x (0.0/0.0) = 1 in x (0.0/0.0) -- I don't expect this to work; and Haskell comments are -- right?
17:28:55 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: Parse error in pattern: 0.0 / 0.0
17:29:35 <Melvar> ais523: As far as I remember, numeric patterns always turn into tests with (==).
17:29:57 <Melvar> So Double patterns will obey float equality.
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17:30:30 <Melvar> So if you could make a pattern for NaN, it would presumably never match.
17:30:57 <ais523> that would make sense, yes
17:31:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: Ah, OK I can see now
17:31:10 <Melvar> > let nan = 0.0/0.0 in let foo n | n == nan = 1 in foo nan
17:31:12 <lambdabot> *Exception: <interactive>:3:26-45: Non-exhaustive patterns in function foo
17:31:36 <coppro> this is pretty normal floating-point behaviour
17:31:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: and no, I don't think depending on the hyphenation of plane-swalker is a good idea in any case.
17:31:49 <b_jonas> It doesn't work for like five reasons.
17:32:07 <coppro> it's fine in haskell, but in Idris, it introduces inconsistency and that's an issue
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17:34:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: And that hyphenation looks like wrong even if you can force it to hyphenate it there
17:34:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: and people _do_ read past the hyphenation
17:35:03 <zzo38> Yes I am sure you will
17:35:36 <b_jonas> My dictionary doesn't tell how planeswalker is hyphenated.
17:35:39 <zzo38> Maybe a card used in a planechase game? Then "plane" is an actual type
17:35:49 <zzo38> (Although you can't destroy them as they aren't permanents)
17:36:10 <b_jonas> Maybe, though it's not very likely that more planechase cards are printed.
17:36:21 <b_jonas> Nor cards that specifically mention them.
17:36:36 <b_jonas> Maybe destroy or sacrifice a plains.
17:36:56 <b_jonas> Is there even a card with hyphenation in the English text? If so, from what year the latest?
17:37:16 <b_jonas> Probably some un-card has some.
17:37:43 <ais523> "destroy" doesn't work for things in the command zone, though
17:37:57 <ais523> it'd be "place in the graveyard" or "exile"
17:38:14 <b_jonas> Yeah, Longest Card Name Ever Elemenetal has a really long hyphenated word in the flavor text.
17:38:58 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not sure those work either, because the rules stop you from moving plane cards to other zones, but sure
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17:39:20 <ais523> probably because someone would find a way otherwise :-)
17:39:27 <b_jonas> Do airport guards know from Dune what a thopter is?
17:39:42 <b_jonas> If the illustration helps that is?
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17:40:36 <b_jonas> ais523: Yes, I think for one of those set of rules that seem like backup rules just in case somehow the rules break at first, there actually is some way to activate that.
17:41:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Sure, and even if thopters don't work in real life, there's probably porn featuring them.
17:41:20 <b_jonas> But that doesn't mean people know the word.
17:41:32 <b_jonas> What are they called in Dune actually? Just thopter, or some prefixed form?
17:42:16 <b_jonas> I've read first Dune book in English, but only once, and I don't remember.
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17:42:35 <b_jonas> (I've read the first six in Hungarian, but I can't say I'm a big fan.)
17:42:42 <callforjudgement> there's some card that puts cards into play if they have the same name as a creature
17:43:01 <b_jonas> callforjudgement: what? from any zone?
17:43:04 <callforjudgement> and there are sorceries with the same name as creature types, and cards that create tokens of arbitrary creature types
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17:43:18 <b_jonas> sorceries with the same name as creature types?
17:43:22 <ais523> probably with a cost too
17:43:53 <b_jonas> ais523: you can also just blink a manifested sorcery these days
17:44:19 <ais523> yep, but the long way round means it can't just be fixed in manifest rules
17:44:21 <b_jonas> it even makes sense because blink can work in a morph dekc
17:44:51 <b_jonas> but yes, there were one or two more exotic ways for some of these rules
17:44:56 <ais523> aha, Clarion Ultimatum is the card in question
17:45:13 <ais523> it lets you search out five permanents from your library with the same name as permanents you control
17:45:19 <ais523> err, different permanents, I think
17:45:38 <b_jonas> and there's even a Splintering Wind that creates Splinter tokens so you don't even have to artificially evolve the token maker
17:45:41 <ais523> and put them into play
17:46:00 <ais523> funnily enough, the rulings for Clarion Ultimatum actually give a second example
17:46:09 <ais523> Illusion token and Illusion // Reality
17:46:18 <ais523> (when matching split card names, you can match either half)
17:46:31 <b_jonas> ais523: I think that Echoing Decay can very occasionally affect both a token and a card, without copy effects changing their name
17:46:54 <b_jonas> It doesn't quite work for Elvish Warrior because Elvish isn't Elf
17:47:13 <ais523> there are quite a few creatures whose name is just their creature type
17:47:15 <ais523> mostly goblins, I think
17:47:43 <b_jonas> but is there one for which there's a simple token-maker, without some sort of artifical evolution or generic foundry?
17:47:57 <b_jonas> eg. there's multiple cards putting Elf Warrior tokens in play
17:48:09 <ais523> check lorwyn and morningtide
17:48:26 <ais523> those are the sets where a race+class token would be most likely relevant
17:48:32 <b_jonas> there's Goblin Assassin, but probably nothing creating Goblin Assassin tokens
17:48:56 <b_jonas> mind you, there's one card that puts Assassin tokens
17:49:13 <b_jonas> ais523: that, or try to search for "creature token" with regexen
17:49:37 <ais523> b_jonas: Gatherer doesn't support regexen any more
17:49:43 <ais523> it got broken in the last website update
17:51:24 <b_jonas> nothing makes Nightmare tokens either
17:51:58 <b_jonas> putting "a 1/1 white Knight creature token" doesn't work either
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17:52:39 <b_jonas> ais523: Illusion is an instant
17:52:56 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, instants and sorceries are pretty much equivalent for this, though, aren't they?
17:52:58 <b_jonas> and there are creatures putting Illusion creature tokens
17:53:16 <b_jonas> it's just that that's another one
17:53:22 <b_jonas> and possibly less obscure than Splinter
17:53:36 <b_jonas> because I guessed it would exist
17:56:34 <b_jonas> and yes, there's lots of creatures printed with creature type names, like Metharan Zombie and Giant Spider
17:56:59 <b_jonas> ais523: there's a card from the TSP block that actually creates tokens named Llanowar Elves, isn't there?
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17:57:09 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, Llanowar Mentor
17:57:23 <b_jonas> so those definitely work with Echoing Decay
17:57:26 <ais523> five cards each of which create tokens named after cards
17:57:29 <b_jonas> which is also a cycle by the way
17:57:51 <ais523> (one of the created cards was in lorwyn, which came later; future sight's most accurate predictions were about lorwyn for obvious reasons)
17:57:54 <b_jonas> yes, and all five are peddlers, aren't there?
17:58:13 <ais523> most spellshapers mimic sorcery or instant spells
17:58:17 <ais523> those ones mimic creature spells
17:58:30 <tswett> Such-and-such. Instant. While Such-and-such is on the stack, all cards have Flash.
17:58:43 <b_jonas> right, Ballon Peddler has the type Human Spellshaper
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17:59:26 <b_jonas> and only three cards called Peddler are like that, and there's one other peddler
18:00:41 <b_jonas> and yes, TSP predicted Kithkins
18:03:12 <ais523> it upset me so much when I found out planeswalkers were actually being added
18:03:34 <ais523> I mean, we have this weird rigger card that references something that doesn't exist, and has wording designed to make it look like it won't ever exist
18:03:34 <zzo38> The "Kithkin" subtype started in the Legends set
18:03:44 <b_jonas> oh, is that part of why you hate Lorwyn?
18:03:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, with one card. and TSP block has two or three.
18:03:54 <ais523> and then we have this lhurgoyf which references a nonexistent card type which Wizards have said they'll never print
18:04:30 <ais523> (there is mild upside from this: happening to (incorrectly) think Tarmogoyf was a cute reference to something that would never happen was enough to get me to draft one before people realised they were good)
18:05:21 <ais523> Lorwyn rather ruined it flavourwise for me
18:05:30 <ais523> but by that point people had figured out it was one of the best cards ever printed
18:05:39 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I understand that, but planeswalkers in particular?
18:05:57 <b_jonas> or wait, Lorwyn ruined Tarmogoyf? what?
18:06:00 <ais523> b_jonas: just the reference to something that would never happen
18:06:22 <ais523> both the rigger that doubles contraction assembly, and the lhurgoyf that references a nonexistent card type
18:06:40 <b_jonas> I'll disappear in about an hour (plus or minus an hour) by the way, for half a day, when my preferred encode of MLP S5 E14 will be available and downloaded.
18:07:15 <b_jonas> ais523: the Steamflogger Boss references a non-existant _artifact_ type
18:07:38 <b_jonas> but cards have created tokens of otherwise nonexistant creature types anyway
18:07:49 <ais523> b_jonas: it references a nonexistent special action, assembly
18:07:56 <ais523> in a way that's templated to make it almost impossible to implement
18:08:10 <b_jonas> rigger is a nonexistant creature type
18:08:21 <b_jonas> I think Sand token is among the most ridiculous type
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18:08:26 <ais523> (at least, no official source says it's a special action, but that's the only game element that templates like that)
18:08:30 <ais523> b_jonas: moriok rigger
18:08:37 <ais523> also, contraption is officially an artifact subtype
18:08:41 <ais523> just one that appears on no cards
18:08:59 <b_jonas> but it appears on Steamflogger, which is enough to bring it to existance
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18:09:10 <b_jonas> but I think the list of existing artifact types don't matter for anything
18:09:19 <b_jonas> because there are no cards like Artificial Evolution for them
18:09:32 <b_jonas> or anything that lets you choose or reference arbitrary artifact types in any way
18:09:46 <b_jonas> whereas creature types can matter (though there's so many that they won't matter in practice)
18:09:51 <b_jonas> and I think land types come up somewhere
18:09:58 <ais523> you only have a finite supply for your turing machines!
18:09:58 <zzo38> Make up something like that for artifact subtypes maybe
18:10:00 <b_jonas> but maybe only existant ones
18:10:06 <ais523> and I don't think land types generally can be chosen
18:10:18 <b_jonas> ais523: probably no, only something like "lands that share type" or something
18:10:19 <ais523> (although it's amusing that there are four lands with subtype Urza's, not three)
18:10:54 <coppro> yeah, only basic land types
18:11:07 <coppro> there's no effect which lets you pick out a subtype other than a creature type
18:11:41 <coppro> didn't know about that one
18:11:50 <zzo38> I have made up the card that has an effect "target spell loses all supertypes and subtypes"
18:11:58 <b_jonas> mind you, if you pick a nonexistant type, you just get an ability that doesn't do anything useful
18:12:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: Illusionary Presence
18:12:32 <coppro> b_jonas: that's not a legal choice
18:12:45 <coppro> landfill doesn't count
18:12:46 <ais523> zzo38: so you can aim it at a legendary creature, and then it's nonlegendary even after it reaches the battlefield
18:12:53 <b_jonas> none of them are really relevant
18:12:54 <coppro> b_jonas: you've made your point
18:13:15 <coppro> if tron was a thing in legacy
18:13:16 <b_jonas> I'm just amused, I didn't know there's so many of these
18:13:22 <coppro> I would totally play Shimmer just to Shimmer Urza's
18:13:26 <ais523> I doubt Wizards would print that, because so many people wouldn't realise
18:13:32 <b_jonas> still, none of them makes land types matters
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18:13:39 <ais523> coppro: I think the only reason tron isn't a thing in legacy is that twelvepost is better
18:13:50 <ais523> and works much the same way
18:14:03 <coppro> you could do Shimmer naming locus
18:14:04 <ais523> hmm, if you put tron and twelvepost in the same deck
18:14:07 <ais523> that's 24 lands exactly
18:14:07 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, or at an Aura and it won't be attached to anything, or at a planeswalker and now you can play another same one, or a snow permanent is not snow, etc
18:14:19 <ais523> now you just need the nonland cards to all be castable from colorless
18:14:32 <ais523> expedition map costs {1}, right? that'd be a good start
18:15:01 <coppro> hangarback walker's good I hear
18:15:48 <ais523> some eldrazi (ulamog is normally the right choice in modern, so probably here too)
18:16:22 <coppro> out of reach in tron, but doable in post
18:16:34 <coppro> and a hardcast emrakul is nearly unbeatable
18:16:58 <ais523> normally by combo decks which had been crafting their hand over the last few turns
18:17:10 <ais523> then did a "T:1 combo kill" just not on turn 1
18:18:53 <zzo38> I have made the puzzle once involving beating a hardcast Emrakul
18:19:16 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean Pathrazer of Ulamog? or the big Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre?
18:19:37 <b_jonas> the big onse are tricky because they can't be reanimated from the graveyard
18:19:42 <coppro> yeah, you can combo out in response
18:19:50 <ais523> there's some discussion that ceaseless hunger might be good in that sort of deck too
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18:19:57 <ais523> but that one's so new you can't buy it yet
18:19:58 <b_jonas> so I've played against a casual reanimator that used Pathrazer of Ulamog among a few other big creatures
18:20:33 <b_jonas> in a way that it sometimes tries to search the deck to put to graveyard, and reanimate, so it had I think five different expensive creatures
18:20:45 <b_jonas> and it aimed to get one out in turn three or something
18:22:03 <coppro> ceaseless hunger seems strong
18:24:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's creature printed 7/11. I wonder if you could get a 9/11 one.
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18:25:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is possible I suppose.
18:27:59 <zzo38> I want to see how to make the Dungeons&Dragons spell it can cause nonlethal damage but can also convert lethal damage into nonlethal damage too
18:28:35 <ais523> zzo38: perhaps there should be a metamagic feat for casting spells nonlethally (and perhaps there's one already)
18:29:07 <zzo38> ais523: There is one.
18:29:26 <zzo38> I have seen it in one book saying it takes 1 slot level higher and in another book it says the same slot level.
18:29:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's not so easy because there are few creatures printed that big. you have to somehow make its size meaningful. and a vanilla creature might not be enough unless you can make its name, type, flavor text, art REALLY good.
18:30:26 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I can believe you
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18:34:40 <zzo38> Such as, deals some amount of nonlethal damage to target, and increases their current hit points by half of that amount, rounding up, up to their maximum hit points; does not count as healing for purpose of effects that care. But I am not sure what level, what amount of damage, etc
18:35:36 <zzo38> Some people (including myself) have suggested to make healing to be a subschool of necromancy rather than of conjuration; the DM of the game I am in also agrees. I can further suggest antihealing to be another subschool of necromancy (for spells that heal undead but damage living creatures)
18:36:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: does that matter? I thought schools mostly matter for wizards, who don't do healing, as opposed to bards or clerics.
18:37:53 <b_jonas> the M:tG rules say that "exchange life totals" effects (which permute life totals among players) count as healing for healing triggers
18:38:03 <b_jonas> so do "set life total" effects
18:38:10 <zzo38> Yes I know in M:tG they do
18:39:04 <zzo38> But it can also matter for some other things including some rule variants that can be used
18:39:57 <zzo38> So not necromancy has two subschools healing and antihealing, and there is also plain necromancy.
18:42:15 <b_jonas> Hmm, besides the cleanup step, regenerate, and "end the turn" effects, are there effects that remove some or all of the damage marked from a creature while keeping them on the battlefield?
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18:43:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know if there are any official ones.
18:43:54 <tswett> I still think it's weird how land costs work.
18:44:16 <tswett> Some spells have a cost of zero. Lands do not have a cost of zero. Instead, they have an unpayable cost, but you don't have to pay it.
18:44:44 <oren_> YAY! I'm tenth ranked of all fontstruct fonts by number of characters
18:45:00 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, it's a bit strange.
18:45:06 <b_jonas> but it's probably too late to change.
18:45:22 <zzo38> tswett: I am fine with that, although I would have made the rules a bit different.
18:45:29 <b_jonas> as in, not worth to change now that everyone knows the rules and there are cards depending heavily on an empty cost being uplayable.
18:45:48 <zzo38> I would allow it to be cast as a spell if it does have a payable cost, but you can still play it as a land too
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18:49:00 <tswett> Well, you can just give errata to everything.
18:49:33 <tswett> A spell land would be interesting.
18:50:16 <tswett> An enchantment that says "While this card is on the battlefield, this card is a land."
18:51:04 <ais523> tswett: that's much the same as a mox though
18:51:06 <b_jonas> oren_: is that armenian or georgian script?
18:51:20 <tswett> It wouldn't necessarily actually have to give you mana.
18:51:36 <oren_> I haven;t updated the eb page yet, but I will soon
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18:55:35 <tswett> Now, what things, exactly, can be in zones?
18:55:41 <tswett> Cards, tokens, and abilities?
19:03:05 <oren_> page now updated! http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
19:04:29 <b_jonas> tswett: also copies of spells
19:04:45 <tswett> And those aren't tokens, I assume.
19:04:46 <b_jonas> tswett: and formerly combat damage on the stack
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19:04:54 <ais523> and copies of abilities! although I'm not sure those are distinguishable from abilities
19:05:11 <ais523> because neither is represented by a card
19:05:46 <b_jonas> tswett: copies of spells are somewhat similar to tokens: they're objects with no underlying card, so their copyable values are set by whatever effect creates them.
19:05:56 <coppro> ais523: I don't think they are distinguishable
19:06:03 <b_jonas> tswett: copies of spells get created in two ways, from effects that copy a spell, and effects that let you play a copy of a spell.
19:06:05 <oren_> we used to use scraps of paper with "elf" or "goblin" written on them
19:06:18 <tswett> It's possible for a copy of a spell to have the type "creature", right?
19:06:30 <coppro> especially since a copy of an ability is an ability
19:06:35 <ais523> tswett: I'm not sure if any cards actually do that
19:06:40 <b_jonas> tswett: you can copy only instant an sorcery spells
19:06:53 <ais523> if it tried to resolve, it'd go to the battlefield and then cease to exist when SBAs were checked
19:07:06 <ais523> (because once a copy of the spell has left the stack it can't change zones again)
19:07:14 <coppro> I believe there is no way to get a copy of a permanent spell
19:07:14 <tswett> What if you have a card that's a "Land Creature Instant"?
19:07:31 <tswett> Are there any cards that have more than one type, one of which is Sorcery or Instant?
19:07:34 <coppro> tswett: the standard answer is "the rules are not designed to handle impossible cases"
19:07:51 <b_jonas> tswett: but not Creature ones or Artifact ones
19:07:55 <coppro> or in other words, a Land Creature Instant is a contradiction, from which anything follows ;)
19:08:17 <tswett> That's why everything is legal in every country.
19:08:22 <tswett> Their laws contain contradictions.
19:08:38 <ais523> coppro: it's only the Instant there that's the contradiction
19:08:47 <ais523> although it's possible to get a tribal with no other types, I think
19:08:49 <ais523> or even a typeless permanent
19:09:33 <coppro> yes, such things are possible on the battlefield
19:09:40 <b_jonas> For a copy of an activated ability on the stack that targets, how does protection treat it, as in, how does it check the characteristic of the base object to determine if it can target the object-or-player with protection?
19:10:01 <ais523> copy has the same source as the original, I think
19:10:33 <tswett> I want to write the MTG rules in C#.
19:10:42 <tswett> Say, does C# let you do call-with-current-continuation?
19:10:48 <zzo38> I want to invent a programming language to write the MTG rules with
19:11:34 <zzo38> As far as I can tell if a card's type is "Land Creature Instant" then it let you to play it as a land but then it remains in your hand when you play it, but it still uses up the one land per turn but you cannot tap it for mana or whatever
19:11:36 <coppro> tswett: http://ra3s.com/wordpress/dysfunctional-programming/a-little-callcc-in-csharp/
19:11:49 <b_jonas> tswett: good luck figuring out how some of the rules work. There's cases I don't know, though you can ask people who are much better in rules than I am.
19:12:10 <b_jonas> (But I'm still proud of that one rules hole I found that was acknowledge by wizards.)
19:12:30 <oren_> wiat, if you can do it in c# then you can do it in VB!
19:12:35 <zzo38> And if the type is just "Instant Creature" then it is cast like a instant but can have power/toughness like a creature so effects that refer to it when not in play can still consider it as a creature card and so on
19:12:49 <zzo38> oren_: Well, in VB.NET anyways you could I suppose
19:13:50 <b_jonas> ais523: Patron of the Akki with Boros Recruit offered. The hole was patched at about Morningtide, and they replied to my post acknowledging that they knew it from me.
19:13:58 <coppro> no, VB.NET doesn't have all features of the runtime
19:14:16 <coppro> it's not a given that something doable in C# is doable in VB.NET
19:14:16 <ais523> b_jonas: what used to happen? undefined behaviour?
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19:14:31 <coppro> (Also for a time, C# didn't either. I don't know if that's still true)
19:15:17 <b_jonas> I noticed it because of the hybrids in Shadowmoor
19:15:21 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, "difference in mana costs" with hybrid
19:15:37 <ais523> strangely, neither card has rulings
19:15:55 <ais523> you'd think they'd at least clarify what the interaction was on one of the cards that made you think about this
19:15:59 <ais523> (probably on the offering cards)
19:16:03 <tswett> I'm reasonably sure C# still doesn't let you use every possible feature of... crap, what's it called.
19:16:25 <zzo38> Then program in CIL
19:16:27 <ais523> what happens nowadays?
19:16:45 <coppro> CIL is the intermediate language
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19:18:06 <b_jonas> ais523: the new ruling is what I wouldn't affect: if you reduce a cost by {W/R}, you can choose to reduce it by {W} or {R}. (You can remove a {1} when you reduce by {W}, as before.)
19:18:42 <b_jonas> This is a bit counterintuitive, but it's similar to how adding the mana cost of a card to your mana pool works (and used to work always, before this ruling).
19:19:00 <tswett> Can you add {W/R} to your mana pool?
19:19:13 <b_jonas> tswett: no, when an effect would add it, you choose to add {W} or {R}
19:19:17 <ais523> tswett: yes, you get either W or R
19:20:05 <b_jonas> it's a very rare effect thoguh
19:21:01 <b_jonas> Charmed Pendant and Elemental Resonance has such an effect
19:21:49 <b_jonas> Probably fewer cards have it than offering, but of course everyone is trying to forget the bad cards from Kamigawa block
19:22:15 <b_jonas> The rules and infrastructure can't forget them though, they have to support flip cards and such.
19:22:56 <b_jonas> Mind you, flip cards don't really cause that much additional trouble that you wouldn't have from morph and double-faced cards anyway, so it's not a big deal.
19:23:44 <b_jonas> I think flip cards still suck in Gatherer though, they're handled inconsistently in two ways dependin on which flip card.
19:24:06 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: um, which meaning of "networking"
19:24:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a nerd, I can't do networking in a social context xD
19:25:20 <b_jonas> hehe, "socketry" is a nice word
19:26:35 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: nah, it's fine
19:28:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ESO Sockets]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44159 * Hppavilion1 * (+123) Created Page
19:34:10 * Melvar ponders a language in which the way to write a newline in a string is "\␊".
19:34:28 <ais523> I added trigraphs to underlambda
19:34:35 <Sgeo> Does oerjan logread?
19:35:13 <b_jonas> in underlambda they might make sense in the eso way
19:35:21 <ais523> amazingly, all the characters that are awkward in underlambda are either trigraphable characters or the trigger of trigraphable characters
19:35:29 <ais523> so I just reversed some of the trigraphs
19:35:40 <ais523> also underlambda only accepts trigraphs inside string literals
19:36:06 <b_jonas> ais523: is it like dc in that string literals often contain commands?
19:36:24 <ais523> you'd use a code literal for that
19:36:36 <Sgeo> ais523, you're a nomicy person, do you agree with me that 126:12's judgement is flawed, because mixing tier 1 + tier 16 isn't necessarily a @ version of an element?
19:36:37 <Sgeo> http://www.sir-toby.com/nomic-archives/frc/round126.txt
19:36:40 <ais523> string literals are just lists of ints, which you'd need to write a parser for to convert into code
19:37:02 <ais523> Sgeo: wow, you're asking me to make a judgement on a nomic that I'm a member of but has been dead for months if not years?
19:37:24 <b_jonas> ais523: dead in what sense?
19:37:31 <Sgeo> >.> actually this judgement is from almost 16 years ago
19:37:32 <b_jonas> and what is dead, you or the nomic?
19:38:19 <ais523> and in the sense that nobody has made any moves
19:38:22 <ais523> nor posted to its mailing list
19:38:34 <Sgeo> I might complain about this to the mailing list
19:38:39 <ais523> the nomic isn't in an ossified state or anything like that
19:39:26 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, the other two interpretations was that you were dead in that you didn't contribute to that nomic, or that you were dead in some in-game way so that you couldn't contribute
19:40:02 <ais523> Sgeo: also note that FRC basically uses dictatorial judegments
19:40:11 <ais523> they /can/ be overturned by vote but it's incredibly rare for anyone to even start one
19:40:43 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, you were tripped up by English grammar here, I thnk
19:40:52 <Sgeo> The judge invited people to point out a flaw in their reasoning
19:40:59 <Sgeo> I'm just doing it a bit late
19:41:05 <ais523> you can't use "has" to refer to yourself unless you're talking about yourself in the third person, you have to use "have"
19:41:10 <ais523> thus the nomic is the only possible referent
19:41:52 <b_jonas> ais523: not even in a relative clause and nonstandard but popular grammar?
19:42:38 <ais523> I can imagine someone doing it by mistake
19:42:51 <ais523> but I can't think of a combination where it would be considered correct (perhaps there are exceptions though)
19:43:30 <b_jonas> How about in clauses that start with “It is I who” ?
19:43:59 <Sgeo> ais523, are there mailing list logs somewhere? So I could see if someone else noticed it?
19:44:09 <ais523> I'd use "have" there but I'm not 100% sure it's correct
19:44:13 <ais523> Sgeo: the mailing list has jumped around over time
19:44:18 <ais523> it's currently on Google Groups I think
19:44:22 <ais523> but probably wasn't back then?
19:44:55 <Sgeo> What's the worst that could happen if I post about it now?
19:45:59 <oren_> it is I who've written a brainfuck interpreter.
19:46:02 <oren_> it is I who's written a brainfuck interpreter.
19:46:27 <oren_> hmmm... I think who's is more correct
19:46:39 <ais523> Sgeo: I believe 126:11 is INVALID, because it implies that something is true that would cause a previous rule to be VALID if it were true, and the ruling at the time is that it was false
19:47:04 <ais523> Sgeo: the destruction of the entire universe, but that's also the worst that could happen if you don't post about it
19:48:54 <ais523> Sgeo: a previous rule says that mixing in extreme proportions always gives you the @ form of an element that's the difference
19:49:02 <ais523> so I don't think your complaint is correct
19:49:07 <ais523> the FRC was great fun, thoguh
19:49:20 <ais523> so if you want to revive it, I'd be up for it, and maybe some of the older players will turn up
19:50:20 <b_jonas> ais523: was fun isn't enough. did it die in a not very broken state?
19:51:16 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, the state that it died in is that the judge failed to start the next round, and that a majority of players who care to vote is needed to forcibly change the judge
19:51:38 <ais523> I hope there isn't a quorum, but I don't think there is
19:51:46 <ais523> in which case I could try to make the change myself
19:51:50 <ais523> I doubt anyone would /object/
19:52:32 <b_jonas> When did this nomic start and die, in real time?
19:52:45 <coppro> FRC doesn't have quorum, no
19:52:49 <ais523> it predates Agora, but wasn't played continuously when it was active
19:52:53 <coppro> I think I could be convinced to get back into it
19:53:03 <coppro> although I wish it would get more legalistic again
19:53:15 <ais523> FRC rules seem to be here: https://sites.google.com/site/fantasyrulescommittee/regular-ordinances-of-the-frc
19:53:41 <b_jonas> hmm… does it use a majority vote in which you can take it over easily if you revive it and nobody responds quickly?
19:53:58 <coppro> ais523: I would vote for a proposal to get it going
19:54:07 <ais523> looks like rule 14 allows us to change the judge via an overrule proposal
19:54:19 <ais523> and the forum is still the frc-play google group because nobody's changed it since the last round
19:55:21 <coppro> ais523: while you're there
19:55:26 <coppro> propose to make the judge not eligible only once?
19:56:08 <ais523> that'd need an amendment, which is different from the overrule we need to get going
19:56:11 <ais523> so I'll let someone else propose that
19:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> Programming language that works like the Constitution
19:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> You can't change previously defined things, you can only ammend them
19:56:45 <ais523> also I'm not sure I can post to the list since I deleted all my google accounts
19:56:48 <ais523> but only one way to find out
19:57:21 <ais523> anyway, David Nicol won round 315 by default
19:57:39 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: which "Constitution" works like that?
19:57:49 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure ours doesn't, neither the old one nor the new one
19:58:24 <b_jonas> I don't think that ever works in practice, but whatever
19:59:10 <Sgeo> ais523, non-atomic elements
19:59:46 <ais523> coppro: looks like I can't post to the list
20:00:25 <Sgeo> tier 1 would be atomic elements
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20:00:44 <ais523> coppro: huh, there's been play since I was subscribed there, too
20:00:52 <ais523> I guess I'm not resurrecting the FRC because Google :-(
20:01:35 <b_jonas> ais523: is an overrule even possible? overrules are for a single round, and there's no round
20:01:56 <ais523> I assumed that we're always in /some/ round
20:02:02 <b_jonas> even if you overrule for some particular round (presumably a future one), that won't help because there's no way to start a round
20:02:17 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
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20:03:24 <b_jonas> ais523: do you mean the mailing list is subscribe-only?
20:03:35 <b_jonas> I mean, postable only if you subscribe
20:03:43 <b_jonas> and you can't subscribe without the list admin approving?
20:04:05 <ais523> b_jonas: I can't subscribe without a Google account
20:04:09 <b_jonas> There's been a post not very long ago, so maybe a list moderator is still active.
20:04:13 <ais523> (there is also a manual CAPTCHA, too)
20:04:20 <b_jonas> ais523: what? I think you can subscribe to a google list from any mailing list
20:04:33 <b_jonas> is that not how these things work these days?
20:04:34 <ais523> you only subscribe via the web interface
20:04:40 <ais523> and tie it to a google account
20:04:44 <ais523> because google groups isn't really mailing lists
20:04:54 <ais523> it's a webforum where one of the access methods happens to be via email
20:04:56 <b_jonas> ais523: they're not mailing lists only, but they contain a mailing list
20:05:18 <b_jonas> so they work differently from yahoo groups?
20:05:58 <b_jonas> you could try to contact the current judge and propose to change the forum or something
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20:13:04 <tswett> Huh. Looks like in MTG tournaments, if your opponent does something illegal, you are generally required to point it out to them; failing to do so may be considered cheating.
20:13:58 <b_jonas> tswett: if you know it's invalid, yes
20:14:13 <zzo38> Yes but sometimes you might not notice either
20:14:25 <zzo38> Of course it is cheating though
20:14:27 <b_jonas> yes, in that case it's not _cheating_
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20:20:56 <tswett> It also looks like if your opponent asks you a question that your opponent theoretically should know the answer to, you're required to answer "completely and honestly".
20:25:06 <b_jonas> ah, gotta go in a minute, encode is available
20:25:13 <b_jonas> I just need a bit of buffer
20:26:02 <tswett> Ah, apparently it's not cheating unless you're attempting to gain an advantage.
20:26:14 <coppro> tswett: that provision is interpreted pretty liberally though
20:26:32 <b_jonas> sure, because lots of things can give advantage in a game
20:26:45 <b_jonas> even risky stuff that might or might not actually help you in the end
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20:41:00 <ais523> make one where no instruction takes any argument, and each instruction works by modifying the program itself
20:41:16 <ais523> and there's no control flow but unconditional gotos that jump a set distance
20:41:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making the TaurusVM a set of virtual machines that each do different things
20:41:40 <ais523> (trying to find a space that esolangs have played in but that hasn't lead to a TC language yet)
20:42:29 <hppavilion[1]> Currently it starts with a null-terminated identifier string that tells it which VM and wich version to use
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20:43:12 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: that seems sensilbe
20:43:21 <ais523> you might want a fixed header so that tools like file(1) can recognise it
20:51:03 <zzo38> I think a flat binary will do
20:51:43 <zzo38> If you need multiple parts, one way is Hamster archive format, although there are other ways too
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20:56:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'll just go with Flat Binary and will change it in the final release if I feel like it
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21:09:03 <ais523> btw, for people who like silly Magic decks, starcitygames is reporting that a 60-card Modern deck including 24 basic Islands and 20 basic Swamps came 4th at a WMCQ
21:09:15 <ais523> the editor added notes saying that he thought someone might be trolling them
21:09:41 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
21:09:45 <pikhq> What're the other 16 cards?
21:09:56 <ais523> I'm trying to find evidence here
21:10:16 <ais523> 3 dismal backwater, 3 fairie conclave, 4 reliquary tower, 2 zombie infestation, 4 treasure hunt
21:10:37 <ais523> (the columnist thought that the dismal backwaters were evidence that the deck was an intentional troll attempt)
21:11:36 <ais523> unfortunately the scg column doesn't say /which/ WMCQ it was
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21:13:48 <pikhq> That... can't possibly be anything but a troll attempt.
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21:14:06 <pikhq> Maybe someone literally played it, but even so.
21:14:11 <ais523> indeed, it's clearly a troll attempt
21:14:33 <ais523> the question is whether someone was trolling the WMCQ and got really lucky
21:14:41 <ais523> or whether someone was trolling starcitygames and they fell for it
21:15:21 <ais523> that deck does at least have a clear win condition
21:16:03 <pikhq> Yes. It is *possible* to play it and win.
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21:17:00 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
21:17:30 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/prog_wins/ the most gratuitous animation possible (if you change the sort order)
21:17:50 <coppro> ais523: or someone submitted an incorrect decklist as a troll
21:18:00 <fizzie> Although I like the idea of showing kettle in reverse order, it makes those things look like the inkblot tests.
21:18:25 <ais523> coppro: the judges would have caught it, surely
21:18:54 <fizzie> Although I've got the points/colors inverted from what I described.
21:19:23 <ais523> it doesn't look /that/ much like an inkblot test because it doesn't really remind me of anything
21:19:47 <coppro> ais523: only if he was deckchecked
21:20:33 <fizzie> ais523: My wife found meanings for all three she looked at.
21:20:46 <ais523> coppro: someone who reached the top 8 would be
21:21:13 <ais523> strangely enough, margins sometimes doesn't stand out that much
21:21:23 <coppro> ais523: they should be
21:21:33 <coppro> if it's an inexperienced judge staff, anything could happen
21:21:33 <ais523> also, perhaps there should be an {average} for the program
21:21:43 <oren_> is there a card that says target creature gets upkeep 1?
21:21:46 <ais523> coppro: btw, what happens if you do a deck check and the deck they've written down is /nothing like/ the deck they're playing?
21:21:56 <ais523> oren_: tabernacle of something is close
21:22:09 <ais523> it gives all creatures upkeep 1
21:22:15 <ais523> and is apparently massively expensive
21:22:29 <oren_> ah yeah i think that's what i read about once
21:22:54 <coppro> ais523: I'm probably going to end up disqualifying them for cheating
21:22:58 <ais523> margins looks pretty :-)
21:23:10 <ais523> coppro: I'd think that too
21:23:17 <ais523> but I can see non-cheating cases where it happens
21:23:21 <coppro> it's not a given, obviously, but they'd have to work pretty hard to convince me they weren't cheating
21:23:24 <ais523> e.g. when someone writes down their decklist the night before, changes the deck
21:23:26 <ais523> writes down a new decklist
21:23:32 <ais523> then submits the old one by mistake
21:23:36 <coppro> I can too, but I don't need proof
21:23:47 <coppro> if they say that's why, I'd say "Ok, where's the other one then?"
21:23:55 <coppro> If they show me the decklist for their actual deck, I might not DQ them
21:24:15 <fizzie> I think I broke the program switcher somehow, which is weird.
21:24:52 <ais523> I think a fun game with fizzie's visualizations is to find something that shows a graph for all programs
21:24:54 <ais523> and try to pick out margins
21:24:59 <ais523> I need to work on margins2 sometime
21:25:05 <ais523> it'd be like margins but with a better win percentage
21:25:14 <ais523> maybe 52% rather than 51%
21:25:50 <ais523> (also, I approve of "vaguely yellowish" as a colour description)
21:27:07 <ais523> fizzie: err, according to this list, ais523.monolith doesn't draw with itself on every tape length
21:27:25 <ais523> I think the list of program names is getting screwed up somehow
21:28:13 <ais523> reproduction: refresh the page, then select monolith from the program list, then choose to sort by points
21:28:39 <fizzie> ais523: I broke the program selector when flipping the points, which was an impressive screw-up.
21:28:54 <ais523> so the wrong program is selected
21:28:58 <ais523> and so you get a different set of results
21:29:13 <fizzie> Yes. Well, technically, what I broke was to freeze the colors of each grid square.
21:29:49 <ais523> OK, so what we can do is look at the programs, and the one that draws with everything is margins
21:32:06 <fizzie> Yeah, it's pretty yellowish.
21:36:22 <ais523> the original idea of margins was "win on tape length 10, draw everything else"
21:36:27 <ais523> it diverged from that a bit
21:36:46 <ais523> but it's still the case that it cannot move to the enemy flag if the tape length is 13 or longer
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21:58:35 <hppavilion[1]> Should I do something with Shared Libraries for Taurus?
22:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone feel like joining the Zodiac Working Group?
22:02:16 <zzo38> You could; do you have a full specification so far?
22:05:39 <zzo38> Some things are both
22:05:42 <hppavilion[1]> I think I did it a little weirdly, as every program has access to a 2**64-register array
22:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> I wonder if I'll be able to get a compiler working when I have: a) Finished the IVM b) Written an assembler and c) Designed a language
22:09:48 <hppavilion[1]> I settled on a file extenstion for Taurus BTW (though I'll change it if it's taken by something popular):
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22:12:29 <zzo38> I don't know, it may depend on how instructions and how other stuff is working, I suppose
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22:27:46 <FireFly> Do you know of any good font editors for vector font formats?
22:31:27 <oren_> I use it to adjust the font properties because fontstruct.com doesn't set them right
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22:40:29 <oerjan> <Melvar> So you can say (subtract x) because (-x) does the other thing. <-- also "negate" because (-) does the _opposite_ other thing hth
22:42:16 <oerjan> logreading is no fun when everyone who spoke in the logs is absent
22:43:05 <Sgeo_> oerjan, so yeah, I posted my complaint to the FRC mailing list
22:43:18 <oerjan> is there one that is still alive
22:43:49 <Sgeo_> I used frc-play@googlegroups.com. I don't know if it counts as still alive
22:44:34 <oerjan> i wouldn't really know, haven't played for > decade
22:45:41 <Sgeo_> Well it was a question about a round from almost 16 years ago
22:46:27 <oerjan> i saw that, i think, i don't think i played that round either
22:47:49 <oerjan> definitely not, i was in a mental hospital then
22:48:09 <oerjan> same year my mother died
22:52:20 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm. if it's _intentional_ trolling, would the judges be able to disqualify him?
22:52:23 <Sgeo_> Sorry to hear that
22:53:07 <b_jonas> ah! changed the deck and so had to replace with basic lands. could happen, yes
22:53:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44160 * Tripl3dogdare * (+3042) Created page
22:54:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44161&oldid=44145 * Tripl3dogdare * (+17) /* R */
22:55:40 <myname> basically a less funny ook
22:56:27 <myname> yeah, you could have done something with the game from.sierra
22:56:35 <myname> that would actually be amazing
22:56:48 <oerjan> i don't know about sierra but i know about the cartoons
23:00:07 <myname> oh, it's actually lode runner
23:00:19 <oerjan> i started to suspect that
23:00:44 <oerjan> (not that i know that game either. i'm not much of a computer gamer.)
23:00:45 -!- TodPunk has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:02:08 <myname> that game is over 20 years old ...
23:02:47 <b_jonas> get lots of cards with Treasure Hunt, discard them for Zombie Infestation
23:03:19 <b_jonas> it's sort of like those decks with only one or two lands, for that red card that reveals cards from the deck until the first land and deal damage for each one
23:03:46 <b_jonas> I'm not saying it's a very good deck, and I'm not familiar with these things though
23:04:09 <b_jonas> myname: an M:tG deck discussed three hours ago here
23:04:23 <b_jonas> and I mean what M:tG format
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23:12:21 <izabera> http://worrydream.com/LearnableProgramming/ <-- do you know this?
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23:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Roadrunner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44162&oldid=44160 * Tripl3dogdare * (+0) /* External Resources */
23:36:20 <tswett> Hmm. What happens if you play Pendrell Flux on a creature which has no mana cost?
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23:41:30 <MDude> I would guess it just gets away with paying nothing?
23:42:22 <MDude> If the cost was to balance out some sort of advantage it'd be more interesting a decision.
23:43:51 <tswett> Or is the cost treated as an unpayable cost, meaning there's no way to keep it from getting sacrificed?
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23:44:59 <MDude> I would err on the former just because the enchantment is basically an attack that relies on it's opponents mana.
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23:45:53 <MDude> But I don't have any particular idea what does into MtG jude decisions other than keeping the game going.
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23:53:51 <zzo38> The only thing that should be relevant are the rules of the game.
23:54:59 <zzo38> You need to make the rules into a mathematically format that can be put into computer in a new kind of programming language, if it is mathematical then you can figure out much better what is defined or not, it is much more clearly. Use literate programming to make much more clearly even more.
23:58:34 <zzo38> That is how I would design a similar kind of card game.
00:02:40 <zzo38> Can a flute be used as a blow gun?
00:02:44 <tswett> Is there a significant rules difference between artifacts and non-Aura enchantments?
00:03:56 <zzo38> tswett: Mainly only what subtypes are possible, I think
00:17:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44163&oldid=44158 * Oerjan * (+0) order
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00:36:02 <tswett> I think I'm gonna try coming up with a decklist. Put those deck-building skills to use.
00:39:04 <tswett> Mono red, because who uses multicolored decks these days?
00:39:42 <tswett> Ooh, I can simulate a draft.
00:47:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cood]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44164&oldid=43593 * Oerjan * (-19) Some proofreading
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01:04:45 <Jafet> You could upgrade by three letters to weechat.
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01:17:09 <hppavilion1> I want to invent a multiplayer programming game
01:18:00 <fowl> How about a multiprogramming player game
01:19:02 <myname> what is the difference between a prlgramming game and a multiplayer programming game?
01:20:58 <Jafet> Presumably "multiplayer" excludes games with fewer than two players.
01:21:01 <hppavilion1> Can't Code Golf be considered a single player programming game?
01:22:57 <Jafet> Massively multilingual programming golf
01:23:18 <myname> i don"t know. programming involves someth like a direct battle between programs for mei
01:23:45 <tswett> Multiplayer programming game. Hmm.
01:25:03 <myname> how is core war not a multiplayer programming game?
01:26:31 <tswett> Whelp, I've created a deck list... now what?
01:27:40 <tswett> And hope that someone decides to playtest it for me and give me detailed feedback.
01:28:04 <tswett> I'll chuck this decklist and make something out of my own cards.
01:32:28 <myname> i am disappointed that programminggames.org does not have listings by language
01:32:49 <myname> i.e. how do i find a haskell programming gamem
01:33:44 <hppavilion1> MY programming game will work over TCP and be realtime
01:34:27 <myname> i am not sure if i like realtime
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01:36:01 <myname> i am wondering about a programming game rl
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01:40:02 <myname> the wiki at programminggames.org has a category named programming games
01:40:30 <pikhq> Argh! I have a reason to get a New 3DS now!
01:41:08 <pikhq> Cartridge slot on my 3DS is jacked up.
01:46:29 <Sgeo_> Robozzle is still Silverlight :(
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01:52:55 <zzo38> I have made a version of Robozzle in DOS once I think
01:53:04 <zzo38> Maybe we can remake it on QUACKVM too
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02:03:01 <myname> http://programminggames.org/GRID-WARS.ashx
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02:10:39 <myname> that site pretry much sucks
02:23:02 <zzo38> As it turn out the scroll lock does stop xterm from automatically scrolling, but the scroll lock light on my keyboard is broke (so I just have to remember)
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02:43:48 <zzo38> My version of Robozzle had some enhancements such as you could have one star that must be collected last, you could have subroutine calls placed on the board (which if picked up call the corresponding subroutine), if any tile has an item but no floor you can walk just once (unless you use a command to place a floor there), and a few other stuff too
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02:46:31 <fowl> Anybody ever played bugbrain
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02:47:17 <zzo38> I do not know what that is.
02:48:33 <fowl> http://www.biologic.com.au/bugbrain/
02:48:55 <fowl> You have to build neural nets to control a bug to complete some objectives
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02:54:34 <Sgeo_> zzo38, how does that subroutine work, does it contain the actual commands, or can it refer to the user's made functions?
02:54:53 <Sgeo_> (The ones you can place in the puzzle)
02:55:24 <zzo38> Sgeo_: It refers to the function coded by the player.
02:56:57 <zzo38> The level could also define what commands are available, so it is possible that some subroutines might not be callable in the other way, or it might be the case that only left turns are possible and no right turns, or you cannot set a condition for blue floors, or blank commands are not available so you must fill in all available slots, etc
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03:11:56 <zzo38> Can you play Minesweeper with scratching cards?
03:13:53 <zzo38> I have once invented a variant of video poker for use with scratching cards. You have to choose ahead of time how many cards you want to discard, but after you discard each card and get the replacement you can use that information to decide which card to discard next.
03:21:16 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone have any ideas for slightly esoteric ISAs?
03:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> Something about the same level of esotericness as my variable-length instruction VM
03:22:57 <zzo38> Someone has in their user page in esolang some stuff about VAX instructions, some of which are variable-length, and they have other ideas too, some of which are too strange to probably make real VAX systems like.
03:27:49 <zzo38> It is a old kind of computer machine.
03:27:56 <pikhq> The VAX was a popular CISC architecture from DEC, and used to be the standard thing you'd run Unix on.
03:28:23 <pikhq> It was also more-or-less the 32-bit version of the PDP-11.
03:28:42 <zzo38> Some of the instructions are a bit strange, and the user page in esolang wiki mentioning it also has a list of even more strange extensions for VAX which do not exist.
03:30:57 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I have VLA instructions, should I add an EXEC instruction?
03:33:17 <Sgeo_> Do the FRC Regular Ordinances have to specify that The Judge is not eligible twice?
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03:35:27 <Sgeo_> "(d)When a valid rule is posted, the author's eligibility is extended to 14 days after its posting, and e receives an authorship cap if e does not already have one. Also, if more than 14 days have elapsed since the start of the round, then every other eligible member with an authorship cap has eir eligibility extended to a minimum of 4 days after the rule's posting, to give em adequate time to respond."
03:35:31 <Sgeo_> This looks easy to game
03:45:22 <oerjan> that looks like they added it after my time
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03:47:50 <Sgeo_> Yeah "They do change, of course, evolving in response to discovered flaws or other changes, such as the extension of the game timetable to using two-week timeouts in response to the professional maturation of the players, and the introduction of automatic extensions, which changes not only prevent sniping races but also usually gives a solid break between rounds."
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03:55:43 <zzo38> I have seen some different Minesweeper variants and I have some of my own ideas too. I listed some at: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/mines
03:56:35 <pikhq> My mind was blown by the first one honestly.
04:06:19 <Jafet> Huh, knights do have eight adjacent squares
04:10:27 <zzo38> Yes, it does. This is a variant I have actually seen though.
04:18:24 <zzo38> Is there a standard METAR code to mean no data can be received?
04:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have heard of a wraparound mode for Minesweeper that exists on a torus
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05:34:20 <bender> guy is zero indexing better or one indexing?
05:34:34 <bender> what would you prefer?
05:34:51 <bender> i'm writing a draft for an esolang, so just wanted some thoughts
05:42:40 <zzo38> I would prefer zero based indexing
05:42:53 <zzo38> But for some purpose one based works better.
05:43:13 <zzo38> (But if you have macros, you could use macros to make one-based)
05:43:39 <zzo38> At least in BASIC (and I think also Pascal) you can use whatever range you want, so you can start at -3 if you want (I have used this)
05:44:06 <hppavilion[1]> bender: I would recommend you use 0-based indexing while allowing indexes to be any floating-point integer xD
05:44:33 <oren_> that would much simplify insertion, certainly
05:45:07 <oren_> to put somthing between a[0] and a[1] just do a[0.5] = 234
05:45:31 <hppavilion[1]> NEW TERM: esokernel: noun: The part of an Esolang that is esoteric
05:45:51 <hppavilion[1]> (if we pretend LOLCODE is an esolang in the first place)
05:46:54 <zzo38> I don't remember what number I used exactly, but I have used negative numbers in the range, as well as using positive numbers greater than 1 for the start.
05:47:41 <bender> hppavilion[1], It's inspired for Befunge, Brainfuck and Underload
05:47:46 <zzo38> I forget what I used it for
05:47:48 <bender> I'm uploading the second draft now
05:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: WTF there's a link on your talk page with the gopher protocol
05:53:55 <bender> http://benderx2.github.io/R3X/pematt/spec.txt
05:54:14 <bender> it's too prototype to be added to the wiki atm
05:54:53 <hppavilion[1]> bender: I'm making an ISA/Executable thing/machine language/whatever :)
05:55:08 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm going to make an assembly language for it.
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05:55:53 <bender> I've also made my own little ISA.
05:55:58 <bender> And a programming language for it.
05:56:10 <bender> http://benderx2.github.io/R3X/
05:57:08 <hppavilion[1]> I created the Zodiac Working Group as an edeavor to create actual, useful languages with just a /hint*/ of estericism :)
05:59:16 <bender> esoterrorism - The act of writing a high level language -> Esoteric lang translator, writing a useful program in that high level language and when someone asks for the source, convert that high level language to esolang of your choice, and giving that as source.
05:59:39 <bender> hppavilion[1], eh. it's quite alpha. and has bugs and stuff atm.
05:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> Dynamic linking? Multithreading? I'm NEVER going to get there ;-;
06:00:07 <bender> well, it just involves parsing file headers.
06:00:15 <bender> and loading them into memory.
06:00:15 <zzo38> I have recently designed the VM but only with an assembler no other programming language is available.
06:00:31 <bender> hppavilion[1], my own.
06:00:59 <hppavilion[1]> bender: I got that. Mine uses a short null-terminated string as a header followed by a flat binary. Do you know of a better way to do it?
06:01:04 <bender> https://github.com/Benderx2/R3X/blob/master/src/include/r3x_format.h <- that is mostly it.
06:01:18 <bender> hppavilion[1], I'm trying for that.
06:01:44 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes there is a link on my talk page with the gopher protocol. Currently that link does not work, although I intend to fix it soon enough
06:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> The final version will be either ASM, C, or C++-based
06:02:36 <bender> yeah, python's a pretty nice language to work your prototypes in
06:03:27 <bender> less bullshitting around with petty stuff like pointers, random linking errors, etc.
06:03:27 <hppavilion[1]> My VM has the added feature of variable argument length for instructions
06:04:14 <hppavilion[1]> The instruction format is <2 byte instruction><1 byte argument length indicator>*<n 8-byte instructions>
06:06:15 <hppavilion[1]> TaurusVM is going to actually support multiple different ISAs
06:06:36 <hppavilion[1]> Do you have any suggestions for esoteric qualities to mix into an ISA?
06:07:15 <zzo38> The one I designed uses 16-bit memory cells and the instruction format (including argument formats) is included in the same cell with the instruction
06:08:00 <zzo38> There are 32 opcodes, and each instruction has exactly three arguments, as well as a result and a predicate
06:08:41 <zzo38> I don't know what suggestion for esoteric qualities to mix into an ISA, but one of my ideas has been you don't need a separate jump instruction if you just do move instruction with PC as the register.
06:09:02 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Almost; I have a number of banks, each one has the length followed by raw data
06:09:20 <hppavilion[1]> But my goal with the ZWG is to use the esoteric to make programming easier/more fun, not harder
06:09:22 <bender> I don't like encoding instructions for some reason lol @ x86.
06:09:44 <zzo38> I do not find it harder though
06:10:08 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, a good language won't let you tell the difference
06:10:21 <zzo38> Yes, with the PC as a register. Same to return from subroutine you just make "POP PC" or whatever
06:10:41 <zzo38> Or maybe you need to also tell it which register is used as the stack pointer too
06:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> But it just seems to me like I should use *just* enough esoteric that it doesn't force the user to mess with things to do basic tasks
06:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> That was a very hard sentence to phrase, and I still don't like the way it came out
06:11:46 <bender> I had this urge to write a minimal x86 emulator, after I experimented a bit around with GNU as, and ndisasm. I thought I would write instructions and feed it to as, which I would then disassemble with ndisasm, hence I would be able to find values for opcodes for each instruction.
06:11:54 <zzo38> I have also had idea that you don't need immediate addressing mode either; use indirect register with postincrement mode (such can also be used to pop from stack too).
06:12:01 <bender> Turned out, the x86 encoding is like brainfuck, just 2 steps ahead.
06:13:08 <hppavilion[1]> bender: Do you have any ideas for weird, but not restricting, ISAs
06:13:24 <bender> all stack based ISAs sound weird to me. :)
06:14:00 <bender> well it depends really
06:14:32 <zzo38> My ideas do not restrict; they make it less restrictive.
06:14:38 <bender> I learned assembly through register based, and so when I learned about stack based machines, my first reaction was: "Hey I need to store my result somewhere less volatile!"
06:15:48 <bender> although turned out you don't really need to, it just works like that. but still, it sounds weird to me.
06:16:47 <zzo38> In Forth you can use ! command to store the result, and @ to read it back, so you can use such thing even in stack-base machine
06:16:59 <zzo38> If you have two-bits addressing mode then you might have: R, [R], [R++], [[R++]]. And then if you have fifteen registers, you have then six bits in total for each operand.
06:17:55 <zzo38> (I think these would be the most useful addressing modes, especially if stack pointer and program counter are also some of the sixteen registers)
06:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> bender: You wouldn't happen to feel like joining the ZWG, would you?
06:19:35 <zzo38> I also had idea, one of the bits of the instruction word can be used to tell it whether or not the instruction affects flags
06:21:19 <hppavilion[1]> bender: The Zodiac Working Group: Dedicated to producing useful languages with just a /hint*/ of the esoteric
06:23:06 <bender> because that's exactly what I'm doing
06:23:38 <bender> Protocol for Esoteric Minimalism and avoiding the Turing Tarpit. <- I think that exactly means that.
06:24:03 <hppavilion[1]> Discussion of things when we don't want to do them here can take place on ##zodiac (ex: We don't want to spam the others)
06:25:49 <zzo38> Are you intending to name stuff after astrological signs (it seems you started that)? You may run out as there is 12 signs by definition
06:27:37 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: We can also use other constellations and star names xD
06:28:04 <hppavilion[1]> Not everything will be, just the stuff that we feel like naming after it
06:28:44 <zzo38> Even constellations there is only 88, but yes you can do others too if you run out I suppose
06:29:51 <hppavilion[1]> With Luna as my witness, I swear I will reshape the heavens themselves to give me more names!
06:30:15 <zzo38> (Constellations are not the same as astrological signs anyways, even though some are named the same; a sign is 30 degrees of the ecliptic and is a unit of angular measurement while a constellation is an area in the celestial sphere, so it is different. Many people confuse them for each other)
06:31:14 <hppavilion[1]> It's not confusion, it's knowing that I have ADHD and will likely start more than 12 projects xD
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12:00:56 <ashl> how unfortunate
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14:17:56 <quintopia> could one use a halting oracle to decide the Rice's Theorem problem?
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14:24:13 <oerjan> hm maybe you need to go more than one level up there
14:25:53 <myname> omg! imagine... a programming game moba
14:26:02 <oerjan> quintopia: i think maybe you need halting oracle for the halting oracle too
14:26:45 <oerjan> because you need to iterate to check whether each input halts, and then you need to test whether _that_ iteration halts.
14:29:05 <oerjan> of course if the property you're testing is trickier, you must go even further
14:29:37 <oerjan> but this would be enough to test things like "returns 0 for all inputs"
14:30:11 <oerjan> "returns 0 for 0" is simple enough that you need only one level.
14:30:26 <oerjan> so it definitely depends on which property you want to test
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14:33:08 <tswett> Does Magic have any game objects which can be in a zone other than the command zone, but cannot be on the stack?
14:33:15 <tswett> Come to think of it, can tokens ever be on the stack?
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14:56:10 <oerjan> goddammit the neighbors left their dog barking again
14:56:52 <oerjan> it tends to happen only on weekends now. i think the dog got used to them being away other days.
15:07:50 <Jafet> Could you debark it?
15:08:42 <Taneb> http://lpaste.net/140847
15:09:28 <Taneb> I may have been a bit aaaah again
15:10:26 <Taneb> Lets you almost do "x < y < z"
15:11:56 <b_jonas> Taneb: hehe. now do it in C++ as well, with a custom numeric class.
15:13:00 <Taneb> b_jonas, the person sitting next to me is ON THE CASE
15:13:12 <Taneb> Well done on the nerd snipe
15:13:32 <Taneb> (I barely know C++)
15:13:58 <b_jonas> try ruby as well… hmm wait, that won't work, I don't think you can overload boolification in ruby, so you can't make if a<b work.
15:14:16 <Taneb> I really do not know many programming languages
15:14:48 <b_jonas> I guess you could do it in perl. That's bound to be possible.
15:14:54 <b_jonas> You can definitely overload boolification in perl.
15:15:06 <Taneb> You can overload everything in perl
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15:27:02 <oerjan> now overload perl to make it underload hth
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15:29:50 <Taneb> oerjan, I do not know perl very well
15:29:57 <oren_> yay we're playing Manu Chao!
15:31:20 <oren_> my parents listen to a lot of crap i don't like, manu chao is one band they like that I also like
15:32:51 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzgjiPBCsss
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15:34:22 <b_jonas> oren_: I see you've added the symbols for control characters
15:34:49 <b_jonas> oren_: how many characters total do you have now?
15:37:59 <oren_> I'm tenth on the site now, but if I want to get in the top 5, I'll hvae to basicllay double that
15:39:25 <b_jonas> oren_: um, it doesn't look like you're in the top ten from http://fontstruct.com/gallery?order=by-glyph-count
15:39:41 <oren_> that only includes edtor's picks
15:40:55 <oren_> 'http://fontstruct.com/gallery?filters=all&order=by-glyph-count
15:41:27 <int-e> oerjan: Do I remember correctly that you did prove TC-ness of brainfuck with a tape containing 3 unbounded cells? (My own attempt would implement a variant of FRACTRAN, but I have not verified all details). I also have considered the case of 4 cells, of which the outer cells are unbounded while the two middle cells always stay at zero (they are never modified); that allows a direct...
15:41:33 <int-e> ...implementation of a two-counter machine (with while, and if-zero-then-else). I'm currently pondering the case of two unbounded cells with a bounded cell in the middle (which usually, but not always, zero). (with the center cell always at zero, one gets a two-counter machine with while and if-not-zero-then (no else)... this doesn't seem to be sufficient to me)
15:42:48 <oerjan> and it started as a variant of fractran, then ended up as a _different_ conway invention
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15:43:44 <oerjan> ^wiki Collatz function
15:43:44 <fungot> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz function
15:44:51 <myname> i am pretty sure this link is broken
15:44:55 <int-e> oerjan: oh damn. could we name that "Generalized Collatz function..."
15:45:22 <int-e> then I would've followed the link when I saw it on the brainfuck page two days ago :P
15:45:51 <oren_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz%20function
15:46:00 <int-e> (somehow, "collatz function", to me, is the 3n+1 / n/2 thing)
15:46:00 <oerjan> int-e: it wasn't my name
15:46:09 <oerjan> yeah it's a little awkward
15:46:13 <oren_> you lack percent-encoding
15:46:33 <int-e> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz+function
15:46:34 <oerjan> oren_: sorry, it works when i paste it into the address bar
15:46:58 <int-e> (which doesn't work... but should ;))
15:47:43 <oren_> screw it, to up my char count, I'll just do bengali gurmukhi and whatever
15:47:55 <oerjan> basically with Fractran i had trouble testing fractions in sequence and also getting it to halt in the end; to solve this i merged the fraction moduli and this turned out to be this collatz function thing
15:48:01 <b_jonas> oren_: is upping the character count so important?
15:48:10 <b_jonas> oren_: add armenian and georgian?
15:48:58 <oren_> I added armenian already yeah
15:49:33 <Taneb> b_jonas, here is what my friend did: http://hastebin.com/kepizajuza.cpp
15:49:42 <oren_> b_jonas: well i suppose since I like to be number 1 at things
15:49:56 <b_jonas> oren_: if you want lots of characters easily, then try the greek script characters with accents
15:50:18 <b_jonas> they're somewhat easy because you already have the base characters, though you may have to squeeze them to get the accent to fit
15:50:30 <int-e> oerjan: ok, I envisioned changing the fractan program n_i/m_i to p/1 ; n_i/(p m_i) for some fresh prime p, and to add some cleanup rules so I can use reaching 1 as stop condition.
15:51:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44165&oldid=44122 * Oerjan * (+28) /* Computational class */ Clarify
15:51:34 <b_jonas> oren_: or would all ten thousand Korean syllables fit this small character cell? if so, create them programmatically.
15:52:47 <int-e> (the stopping at 1 bit is mainly me being lazy; it should be possible to take p=2 (shuffling the other primes) and stop when an even number is left in the end)
15:54:54 <oerjan> int-e: i think that even check is just about what i _failed_ at
16:00:57 <oerjan> i think because i couldn't see any way to check a cell for evenness without destroying data
16:02:10 <oerjan> i still have an esthetic gap in my construction: i have no way to convert a number from p^n to n format at the end (the other way is easy)
16:02:40 <int-e> you may be right about the evenness test
16:03:25 <oerjan> which means this cannot be turned into an i/o pipe as a whole
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16:05:28 <int-e> hmm, if there's only one p, then *p^n 0 0 after -[+>>+<<[p->+<]>[-<+>]<-] becomes *0 0 n
16:05:57 <oerjan> i may have misremembered
16:06:20 <oerjan> maybe it's splitting _that_ into characters that's impossible
16:07:08 <int-e> that's quite possible, at least I see quite a few difficulties...
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16:14:19 <b_jonas> oren_: wait, you haven't done the halfwidth hangul letters (not full syllables) yet!
16:27:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44166&oldid=44161 * Scoppini * (+11)
16:30:50 <fizzie> Plot of the day: http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/
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16:34:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44167&oldid=44165 * Rdebath * (+51) /* Computational class */ Make the clarification a direct link.
16:38:27 <Elite-1> what a cool diagram. respect.
16:48:06 <Jafet> Oh, the summaries are just ~200 kB.
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16:53:48 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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16:54:22 <oren_> bonus: ♔♕♖♗♘♙☢☣✥✦✧✨❓❔❕❖❗❛❜❝❞❟❠❢❣❤❥❶❷❸❹❺❻❼❽❾❿
16:55:42 <b_jonas> oren_: demo is up but the font isn't
16:56:05 <oren_> try refresing a few time
16:56:36 <b_jonas> great, accented greek is up
16:56:46 <oren_> browser and isp caches are annoyng
16:56:58 <b_jonas> oren_: you can set them with directives and stuff
16:57:25 <b_jonas> oren_: anyway, what's next? halfwidth separate Korean letters, Georgian?
16:58:11 <b_jonas> oren_: or Hebrew with vowel points and fullwidth Korean syllables?
16:58:49 <oren_> hebrew voels points are already in, but
16:59:05 <oren_> I can't figure out how to demo them
17:00:05 <oren_> I have a program that does the tables :
17:00:08 <oren_> u8tbl 0x1f00 0x1f6f
17:00:47 <oren_> maybe an idea ould be to place a character beteen each one?
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17:02:19 <b_jonas> oren_: I mean the pre-composed characters
17:02:23 <b_jonas> or are those not in unicode/
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17:04:57 <oren_> hmm maybe I should just do many of the alphabetic presentation forms block
17:04:58 <Elite-1> what is it you are doing? is it possible to create characters by drawing more of them into "one cell"?
17:05:30 <b_jonas> oren_: do georgian. it's not easy, but it's at least plausible to use in a monospaced font.
17:06:00 <oren_> that does look plausible
17:06:09 <b_jonas> I still like this font because you did a great work on the latin letters though
17:06:55 <Elite-1> so.. you are designing fonts? :)
17:07:48 <b_jonas> Elite-1: what? who? I'd never do such a thing. that's for trained professionals. :-)
17:08:14 <Elite-1> lol. just would like to understand what is the actual challange.. a keyword or sth
17:08:56 <b_jonas> Elite-1: no, I was just doing crazy stuff like proofreading a font oren makes, at midnight when I should really have gone to bed instead, and finding several mistakes.
17:09:30 <Elite-1> uhum. that's so nice of yours.
17:09:54 <b_jonas> But that was back when it was easy, with mostly common characters. Now, when it's all big, I can no longer do that.
17:10:08 <b_jonas> I don't even know how most of these crazy characters are supposed to work.
17:10:45 <oren_> I'm basically just looking up the unicode consortium's pdfs and working off those
17:11:12 <b_jonas> I mean, who'd put futhark runes in a monospaced font? Runes that are generally written with a ton of ligatures in most words, that is.
17:11:15 <coppro> poll: should I try evil-mode or neovim first?
17:11:26 <Elite-1> well. the meaning of life is to give life a meaning.
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17:13:01 <izabera> did anyone try acme or sam?
17:15:34 <b_jonas> oren_: incidentally, do your line growing characters cover all of the two Commodore 64 character sets?
17:15:38 <oren_> green highlights the new characters
17:17:41 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII
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17:18:45 <oren_> that's interesting with the lines that re shifted up down left and right
17:19:00 <b_jonas> note that it's tricky, because it uses inverted characters to increase the count, so it doesn't have the graphical characters that are inverses of the others in the set
17:19:05 <oren_> and the circles similarly.. I don'y have those
17:19:11 <b_jonas> eg. has a bottom half block, but not a top half
17:19:23 <b_jonas> because the video card can easily invert it
17:19:35 <b_jonas> the video chip or something
17:20:21 <oren_> I have most of them but not the shifted circles
17:21:22 <oren_> no wait I have those
17:22:08 <oren_> diagonal half block, I dunno if there is one in unidoce
17:22:35 <b_jonas> oren_: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PETSCII#Codepage_layout
17:22:49 <b_jonas> there is, though that table might not help you find the inverses
17:23:24 <oren_> thats a triangle though ◤
17:23:50 <b_jonas> oren_: I was wondering because you have had the rounded corner line drawing characters for a while
17:23:57 <oren_> in the commodore it goes to the upper and lower edges
17:24:25 <oren_> looks like I have almost everything
17:27:55 <b_jonas> oren_: do yuo have the left and right diagonally striped blocks?
17:29:13 <b_jonas> oren_: hmm, apparently the C64 used a different (but related) character set for storing characters, and for displaying them in the video memory
17:29:23 <b_jonas> (just like modern linux systems on the vga console)
17:29:32 <b_jonas> and they actually have the letters in different positions
17:29:36 <b_jonas> https://www.c64-wiki.com/index.php/Character_set
17:30:11 <b_jonas> the normal character set contains control characters for all keystrokes,
17:30:28 <b_jonas> the video memory character set is the one that has the inverted characters
17:34:40 <tswett> Bill. Sorcery. 2B. As an additional cost to play Bill, obtain permission to play Bill from target player. You do not have to show Bill to that player before obtaining permission. You control that player during that player's next turn.
17:35:51 <tswett> Certainly a gray-border.
17:36:03 <oren_> "can I play the bill?" "uh, sure, thanks". "ok" *places card* "wha?"
17:36:47 <b_jonas> do you mean "silver-bordered"? silver is shinier than gray so we call it that
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17:38:26 <tswett> https://twitter.com/RoboRosewater/status/642771114020745217 - so this is impossible to play, right?
17:40:03 <olsner> could both players play it at the same time?
17:41:25 <tswett> I'm reasonably sure the Magic rules never ask two players to make a decision simultaneously.
17:42:00 <b_jonas> tswett: yes. but MaRo doesn't care about templating, so that might not be what he wanted.
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17:48:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Zodiac Working Group]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44168&oldid=44075 * Hppavilion1 * (+113) Created Page
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17:52:56 <oren_> that's weird. a newly created page doesn;t normally have a oldid
17:54:18 <FireFly> It's probably just an edit message?
17:55:29 <oren_> the next version of my font will contain a demonstration of my utterly inability to draw a pentagon
17:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> oren_: FireFly: I forgot that I hadn't just created the page
17:56:21 <FireFly> Now I'm tempted to work on my fixed-width fonts again
17:56:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: what fixed width fonts do you have?
17:57:05 <FireFly> I don't remember where I put them, but I've linked to them in here before
17:57:23 <b_jonas> I should work on a demo page showing my terminal font with various example texts and showing all characters
17:57:53 <b_jonas> or at least all non-control characters, because the control characters can be hard to access
17:57:57 <FireFly> There's always UTF-8-demo.txt
17:58:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: I know it's easy, yes
17:59:16 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/pixfont/index.html there's this thing
17:59:29 <b_jonas> I know what I can use as example text in natural language (it's obvious: the three poems of which I have a copy on my homepage), but I also need some sort of sample of a programming language that shows off ascii punctuation somehow
17:59:46 <FireFly> The other various fonts cover too little to be of any use, I think
17:59:48 <b_jonas> can you recommend some example that shows off _all_ ascii punctuation nicely in some realistic way?
18:00:23 <FireFly> You could cover a lot with carefully selected C, I guess
18:00:30 <b_jonas> oh, and I need a lorem ipsum of course
18:01:38 <b_jonas> oh, that reminds me, I wanted to check something
18:04:14 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm <- is this a good example?
18:05:14 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm or this one
18:06:48 <oren_> ideally a sample would be short but contain things like += and *= to demonstrste the alignment of characters
18:06:52 <b_jonas> I was hoping for somethign short, but it's probably impossible to get something that's both short and natural and shows off all characters
18:07:48 <b_jonas> hmm… http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/Incunabulum would be too evil, and doesn't contain a ^
18:08:11 <b_jonas> heck, it doesn't even contain a /
18:10:54 <zzo38> You can have a C code without a slash if you do not have any comments, divisions, and subdirectories
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18:12:09 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/Cdemo.htm
18:15:47 <oren_> hmm did I miss anything?
18:16:24 <b_jonas> oren_: you can put those in strings
18:16:38 <fizzie> And GCC has an extension allowing $ in identifiers.
18:16:44 <oren_> right but you can but any bytes in a string
18:16:45 <b_jonas> oren_: you need a backslash though
18:17:29 <fizzie> You do need a question mark for trigraphs, that's true.
18:17:43 <fizzie> <% and %> work for curly braces, though.
18:18:07 <b_jonas> fizzie: um, not in a font that I want to use in a sane way, no
18:18:42 <oren_> those align nicely in my font
18:19:07 <oren_> the < is centred vertically behind the %
18:21:03 <pikhq> Digraphs are a lot nicer than trigraphs.
18:21:25 <FireFly> oren_: you're missing an end tag for the <pre> in the generated files
18:21:28 <zzo38> The <% and %> looks like nicely in the font I am using
18:22:23 <oren_> FireFly: allowed by html standard
18:24:21 <oren_> %:include "stdio.h"
18:26:54 <oren_> if(a<:i:>==3)<%printf("%d\n",??-a??(i??))??>
18:27:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cood]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44169&oldid=44164 * SuperJedi224 * (+0)
18:27:16 <pikhq> oren_: You missed a golden opportunity for ??/
18:27:40 <b_jonas> oren_: add in some pascal code where [ ] { } have digraphs (. .) (* *) iirc
18:27:43 <oren_> pikhq: wiat they wrok inside srting!???
18:28:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44170&oldid=43375 * SuperJedi224 * (+35) /* Example programs */
18:28:04 <b_jonas> oren_: yes, that's the whole point of trigraphs
18:28:06 <pikhq> oren_: Yes, trigraphs happen *before tokenizing*.
18:28:19 <pikhq> Trigraphs are basically implemented via a quick sed before all processing happens.
18:28:34 <pikhq> Digraphs, on the other hand, or just alternate names for tokens.
18:29:06 <oren_> but, but, if you're on a system where { doesn't exist, then what happens if you print "??<"?
18:29:37 <pikhq> Then you're violating spec: { is part of the required character set. :)
18:30:28 <b_jonas> oren_: you probably get an ä or á
18:30:41 <pikhq> Yeaaah, trigraphs are Really Really Dumb.
18:30:43 <b_jonas> which is actually the same as {
18:30:56 <pikhq> They are literally required to exist as part of the runtime character set.
18:31:25 <b_jonas> I don't know my iso-646, sorry
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18:49:54 <FreeFull> Combine trigraphs with the ternary if
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18:54:25 <fizzie> Well, the logical or that the standard uses as example for trigraphs -- ??!??! -- is already p. silly.
18:56:16 <pikhq> Fortunately, that's easier to deal with: %:include <iso646.h> and then just use or
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19:04:37 <oren_> there should be a header that enables code to be written in 6-bit codes
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19:07:08 <oren_> wait you'd need something to replace character case
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19:28:21 <b_jonas> oren_: go the whole way and make it 5-bit telegraph codes with shift
19:28:49 <b_jonas> I mean 5-bit telegraph codes with two planes and lock shifts
19:32:32 <pikhq> It's frankly kinda silly the spec permits not-ASCII...
19:33:13 <b_jonas> pikhq: actually there's a proposal that would require C++ compilers to have a mode where they accept utf-8 source files, even if the default mode uses other crazy character sets
19:33:27 <b_jonas> pikhq: but you can't require ASCII because C is used on EBCDIC machines actually
19:33:37 <b_jonas> requiring ASCII would be unreasonable
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19:45:01 <int-e> where is boily been anyway?
19:51:56 <zzo38> I think boily is live at Canada and I also live at Canada
19:52:34 <int-e> it wasn't really meant as a geography question.
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20:00:41 <b_jonas> what... you're in Canada? I didn't know
20:01:02 <b_jonas> Isn't most of this channel in Finland anwyay?
20:01:39 <hppavilion[1]> I /don't/ think Finland is part of the UK, b_jonas
20:01:45 <pikhq> b_jonas: I'm aware, and have had the misfortune of using said machines.
20:02:37 <pikhq> I'm of the opinion that such machines have done more monetary damage than IBM has profited from them.
20:02:39 <hppavilion[1]> "In theory, yes" is the first message I sent when I hold ^
20:02:40 <b_jonas> pikhq: oh dear. when? for banking?
20:03:40 <hppavilion[1]> "Does anyone have any ideas for slightly esoteric ISAs?"
20:03:50 <hppavilion[1]> "Something about the same level of esotericness as my variable-length instruction VM"
20:04:33 <pikhq> b_jonas: But yeah. EBCDIC is a crime against humanity and not only should it be scoured from the planet, it should be scoured from the timeline.
20:04:33 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: but it uses fixed length instructions
20:04:37 <zzo38> As bad as it is, it isn't quite *that* bad.
20:04:47 <int-e> oh yes, IBM's encryption standard.
20:05:05 <zzo38> I don't like EBCDIC either, it is pretty badly designed. ASCII is better
20:05:07 <b_jonas> pikhq: but then you'd need much more complicated hardware in the punch card readers, woudln't you?
20:05:22 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: Of couse it does. Therer are fucking /machine codes/ that don't use fixed length inscructions
20:05:42 <pikhq> On the bright side, if I felt like it I could go brute force login all Internet-exposed mainframes and trash them.
20:06:05 <pikhq> b_jonas: Amusingly, no, the *software* being buggy is what prevented them from shipping with ASCII.
20:06:50 <zzo38> Hollerith works for punch cards though, you do not need EBCDIC
20:07:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: how would that help?
20:07:57 <pikhq> (I'd be unhappy but begrudgingly accept a world in which IBM was merely forced to adopt UTF-EBCDIC.)
20:09:14 <int-e> I'll grudgingly admit that EBCDIC made some sense with punched cards. Oh and at the time where engineers still were thinking about decimal based computing.
20:09:22 <zzo38> I don't like UTF-EBCDIC either, that is just as terrible as real EBCDIC and perhaps more so, but at least it allows you to convert ASCII stuff that isn't in EBCDIC into EBCDIC.
20:10:26 <zzo38> int-e: Yes, although for punch cards I would just use Hollerith anyways (for purely numeric data you could use Postnet instead)
20:10:30 <int-e> (Have the decimal IEEE 754 formats ever been implemented in hardware? If so, is any of that hardware still in use today?)
20:10:36 <pikhq> int-e: The irony is, EBCDIC *was not intended to ship*.
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20:10:59 <pikhq> int-e: EBCDIC was a hack extension of the then-legacy BCD junk.
20:11:07 <pikhq> Those machines *were intended to ship as ASCII*.
20:11:34 <pikhq> They shipped with EBCDIC because the software wasn't ported yet, and they never went back and fixed it.
20:11:49 <pikhq> IBM literally externalized the cost of their tech debt on everyone else.
20:12:29 <pikhq> zzo38: Yeah, it's not great but it's better than not even representing common characters.
20:12:30 <b_jonas> pikhq: exactly, ebcdic is the way it is because it's easy to read from punch cards. the low four bits are usually read from the lower nine rows of the card, and three bits above are read from the top three rows of the card. and storing letters on the punch cards is a hack when they originally stored numbers only.
20:13:11 <int-e> decimal numbers. of course.
20:13:34 <int-e> (What else?! I wasn't born with 16 fingers!)
20:14:16 <b_jonas> int-e: sure. decimal is enough for sorting census data with card sorting machines. surely the workers can't be expected to convert numbers from decimal to octal and back in their head when computers barely existed.
20:14:22 <Elite-1> 12 fingers for homo sapiens sapiens sapiens
20:15:27 <zzo38> I have once invented the "FORMCARD" specification, a protocol and file format for transfering form data. Although the protocol uses only ASCII (it is not specific to any transport mechanism, you can use RS-232, telephones, TCP/IP, stored in a file, QR codes, etc), the types of fields are "H" (which stands for "Hollerith"), "P" ("Postnet"), "A" ("Automatic"), and "M" ("Manual"). There is no EBCDIC.
20:15:47 <Elite-1> i say, let's go for it. let's breed mutatant kids to become autistic computing machines. we need this when the machine will turn against us.
20:16:05 <zzo38> Whether or not any characters which are not in Hollerith can be entered into a "H" type field is implementation-dependent.
20:16:37 <Elite-1> microfilm, punch cards, mutant kids and john connor
20:17:30 <Elite-1> (and maybe a poster of kylie minoque to give life a meaning)
20:18:35 <zzo38> I remembered I had stuff also for calculations, expandable fields, formatting (for printout or HTML or whatever), barcodes, namespace URIs, and some others
20:18:43 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of idea?
20:21:40 <zzo38> You can avoid having to make up a separate form for computer and for filling on paper
20:22:30 <b_jonas> can't you use html to represent forms?
20:26:02 <zzo38> HTML is only if you are doing it on computer in web browser with internet; mine is more general-purpose, also has some more sophisticated features but can be easier to parse than HTML
20:26:18 <b_jonas> um no… html can be printed too
20:26:35 <b_jonas> HTML+CSS is designed in a way that it can describe printed documents
20:27:11 <zzo38> Yes it can, but HTML forms aren't so good for printout (you could use CSS too, but that still requires you to format it yourself)
20:27:30 <zzo38> Nor does it allow forms like Scantron forms to be used, or punch cards
20:27:43 <zzo38> And it still requires a web browser.
20:28:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: so you want one of those forms with little rectangles reserved for each handwritten character, which the tax bureau uses?
20:28:17 <b_jonas> and it requires a web browser for whoever designs the forms and prints them,
20:28:27 <b_jonas> not for the people who get the printed form and fill it with handwriting
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20:29:08 <zzo38> Yes, one box per character is also a way to format them, but the formatting should be independent
20:29:58 <zzo38> FORMCARD is design a common protocol instead; you can have them convert to HTML or DVI or whatever, and even if you want, to convert the HTTP post data back into FORMCARD data on the back end, although these are only some possibilities, not all.
20:31:23 <zzo38> FORMCARD supports formatting hints, but rather the hint specifies stuff like "important" or "required" or "office use only" or which fields should be grouped together in rows/columns, not such things as how exactly it looks like or the font size or color or anything like that.
20:37:07 <zzo38> Another possible form layout you might use is if you have the boxes to write each character and underneath also the circles you can fill in and the computer will scan it; you could use Hollerith or Postnet for filling in such things, is one way
20:38:09 <b_jonas> I'm… not sure the tax bureau would like if I used Hollerith to fill my tax forms. And how'd I even type the "á" in the name or address?
20:39:23 <int-e> clearly you first have to apply for an ascii name.
20:39:56 <zzo38> I did not say the tax bureau (or anyone else) has to use it
20:40:15 <b_jonas> int-e: there might be a boostrapping problem there, I might need to write my old name to apply for a new one.
20:40:29 <zzo38> Just like, they don't have to use HTML, they don't have to use FORMCARD either.
20:40:53 * int-e still has trouble distinguishing between zzo38 discussing established standards and zzo38 discussing his own pet projects.
20:41:14 <int-e> b_jonas: you don't say
20:41:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure. they use that crazy java-based form filling program instead, and then refuse to help people when the program has a bug and doesn't allow entering their valid data.
20:44:55 <b_jonas> But at least you can extract the html version of the guide from the java program (just unzip it), whereas otherwise it's available only as a pdf.
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20:45:25 <zzo38> You don't have to use Java either, clearly
20:45:36 <b_jonas> I should do that automatically for all their forms and put the htmls up on the web so that people or web crawlers can access the html versions.
20:45:42 <b_jonas> I checked, their license allows it.
20:45:58 <b_jonas> It says I can redistribute their guides in unmodified form.
20:46:10 <oren_> I once thought it was a good idea to have an online voting sytem for elections. then I realized if we did that, the top candidates would be harry dick, bob loblaws, and hitler didnothingwrong
20:46:58 <oren_> therefore, I want to keep the election system paper-based
20:47:13 <Elite-1> much better. just use one of the hundreds of .MD -> HTML serving engines/templates
20:47:32 <oren_> markdown is total and complete shit that's why
20:47:56 <int-e> . o O ( you're in a maze of twisty markdown processors, all different )
20:47:58 <zzo38> Markdown doesn't seem so good for forms anyways
20:48:43 <int-e> no cookie, thought bubble
20:48:46 <Elite-1> you can even create tables wth | pipes
20:52:30 <zzo38> I agree to keep the election system paper-based
20:55:38 <b_jonas> I don't care either way, because once I achieve world domination, any remaining elections won't influence anything anyway.
20:58:07 <Elite-1> you need the elections just to make the people elect, silly.
20:59:00 <Elite-1> that's part of a good world domination plan
21:01:01 <Elite-1> world domination may be overrated anyway
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21:11:01 <b_jonas> Elite-1: sure, they're elect a parliment that doesn't have any power.
21:11:07 <b_jonas> But I don't really care how they do that.
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21:53:34 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> It's not confusion, it's knowing that I have ADHD and will likely start more than 12 projects xD
21:53:44 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> I still don't understand coroutines
21:53:54 <oerjan> coroutines are the ADHD of programming hth
21:54:20 <oerjan> you're doing one routine, and then *poof* you're doing another instead
21:55:49 <oerjan> also y'all talk to much
21:58:42 <fizzie> But it's been entirely silent for, like, an hour.
22:01:35 <Taneb> Another channel is wondering if the reason I am like I am is because my eyebrows, despite their volume, can't express anger
22:05:08 <oerjan> try applying war paint hth
22:07:11 <Taneb> (the way I am includes rarely expressing anger)
22:09:24 <ashl> and also includes voluminous but calm eyebrows?
22:09:36 <shachaf> Taneb: have you played factorio twh
22:09:56 <ashl> that should probably go in wisdom.pdf
22:09:58 <Taneb> shachaf: I have not, what is factorio
22:10:16 <shachaf> a game where you build and automate things
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22:17:37 -!- aloril has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:21:23 <shachaf> We have a multiplayer game going.
22:24:26 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
22:25:42 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/and //;s/genders./genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows./' wisdom/taneb
22:25:50 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, cube root of five genders, and voluminous but calm eyebrows. (See also: tanebventions)
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22:56:11 <zzo38> Is there program to send DVI to fax?
23:13:12 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> where is boily been anyway? <-- i think he went to singapore or something like that? it's in the logs somewhere.
23:15:29 * oerjan is starting to get the hang of closing duplicate SO questions
23:19:17 -!- ayylmao has changed nick to kline.
23:19:59 <Elite-1> there are fax services, though most of them cost money. in fact analogue fax services drop off a lot. folks tend to give a fax more credibility like for authenticity of documents.
23:19:59 <tswett> In retrospect, "This program has performed an illegal operation and will be shut down" is sort of a hilarious error message.
23:20:41 <pikhq> Elite-1: Which is pretty goofy.
23:20:43 <zzo38> DVI is device indepentent format for printing documents
23:20:58 <tswett> How many users of Windows 95 do you think knew what "performed an illegal operation" meant?
23:21:05 <pikhq> I mean, it's not even as though common fax is analog.
23:21:40 <pikhq> It's digital sent through a modem. :)
23:21:57 <zzo38> In case you are at a hotel and you do not have a printer then you could try to send it to the hotel's fax machine. I have even seen a hotel room that has a fax line on the wall.
23:22:34 <Elite-1> it's more like a copy. you get this receipt. and, like a timestamp for the transaction.
23:23:23 <oerjan> Elite-1: there's actually a user with nick laura, she might get a bit confused
23:23:40 <shachaf> Elite-1: Please on't abuse lambdabot.
23:23:52 <Elite-1> @tell laura hi..sorry. i was just testing sth
23:24:16 -!- sebbu2 has joined.
23:24:51 * lambdabot hits lambdabot with an assortment of kitchen utensils
23:24:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you were saying?
23:25:39 <shachaf> oerjan: lambdabot is excluded from the lambdabot abuse rule
23:25:49 <tswett> `le/rn sth/"sth" is short for "something that hibernates".
23:25:49 <shachaf> oerjan: If I catch *you* doing anything, though...
23:26:04 <Elite-1> i do not want to abuse people. but i alwys do that with robots.
23:26:26 <oerjan> and thus we doom humanity
23:26:44 <pikhq> *grumble* I need to upgrade my OpenWRT router again.
23:26:54 <Elite-1> but this time it's goin to be a ball
23:27:18 <oerjan> Elite-1: what kind of ball? neutronium?
23:27:19 <pikhq> OpenWRT is a Linux distro that runs on consumer routers.
23:27:35 <pikhq> The only unfortunate thing about it is, upgrading it is not super nice.
23:27:58 <Elite-1> well.. that's further out than i stand now.. so..erm. probably not.
23:28:00 <pikhq> (courtesy of being a "flash the firmware" type of deal rather than "run apt-get update" deal)
23:28:06 <Elite-1> thanks for playing anyway.
23:28:23 <oerjan> shachaf: also i've already constructed unsafeCoerce in lambdabot several times, you know
23:29:06 <pikhq> It's otherwise quite nice though.
23:29:16 <pikhq> It's perhaps the least sucky consumer router I've dealt with yet.
23:30:46 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you ever *actually* do it in lambdabot?
23:33:53 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i got to the > uc 'a' --> 97 stage
23:34:15 <oerjan> that's sort of my standard test case now
23:34:36 <shachaf> Ah, right, I was thinking of running IO.
23:34:53 <shachaf> Which I never did because I didn't want to crash it, among other reasons.
23:35:18 <shachaf> Anyway they were all variations of #10000, right?
23:35:31 <oerjan> nah as a mathematician i refer that to the "it's obviously possible" case, then go back to bed with the fire burning
23:36:14 <oerjan> i don't think lambdabot supports the ghci type family thing i found later
23:36:42 <oerjan> being as L.hs is an actual file and not a real GHCi prompt
23:37:26 <oerjan> i suspect IO is insufficient to crash it nowadays.
23:37:46 <shachaf> Oh, the type family thing was different, yes.
23:38:01 <shachaf> But that only works in ghci, with multiple lines in the same session.
23:38:29 <oerjan> it's slightly more flexible without Safe mode
23:38:43 <oerjan> then you can put some of the stuff in modules, and just load two conflicting ones
23:39:21 <oerjan> (but they must be loaded from GHCi, otherwise the overlap check triggers)
23:39:59 <oerjan> i don't think that bug has been fixed yet, i don't recall any patch on the trac
23:41:46 <shachaf> oerjan: as a mathematician can you find an md5 collision to violate safehaskell with twh
23:42:19 <oerjan> are TypeRep fingerprints using that?
23:43:30 <oerjan> hm so md5 is reasonably unsafe
23:43:49 <oerjan> but engineering a collision by composing types still seems quite a bit of work
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23:49:51 <shachaf> oerjan: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7634
23:50:25 <shachaf> (Note that the description there is probably no longer accurate with the new TypeRep changes.)
23:50:36 <shachaf> (Well, maybe it still is.)
23:52:08 <shachaf> The constraints are pretty strict.
23:52:15 <shachaf> A lot of bits are forced to be 0.
23:59:07 <oerjan> my intuition would imply that a large number of fixed bits would _increase_ the chance of collision, by making the space smaller overall?
23:59:59 <shachaf> A lot of bits of the input, I mean. Or maybe I don't follow?
00:00:29 <shachaf> If even finding a collision with two arbitrary inputs is hard, surely finding a collision with two inputs with a bunch of constraints is harder.
00:00:40 <oerjan> i haven't found the code that actually constructs the fingerprint for a TypeRep ...
00:03:28 <shachaf> Unless you mean the MD5 code, which is in GHC.Fingerprint.
00:04:30 <shachaf> Unless you mean the code inside the compiler, which is different but does the same thing.
00:05:10 <oerjan> ok it's mkPolyTyConApp, looks like it takes a list of the fingerprints for TyCon, kinds and type arguments and passes to fingerprintFingerprints
00:06:11 <shachaf> There used to be a bug with associativity so now they use a list instead.
00:06:12 <oerjan> i'm particularly interested in those, since they can be built arbitrarily complex
00:06:40 <oerjan> while a TyCon is sort of limited in information content
00:15:23 <tswett> I'm about to attempt something that sounds pretty difficult.
00:15:33 <tswett> Namely, proving that the infinite cyclic group has at least two elements.
00:16:13 <tswett> I dunno, I think that's a little too advanced for where I am right now. Instead, I'll try to prove that the infinite cyclic group is not the trivial group.
00:17:19 -!- aretecode has quit (Quit: Toodaloo).
00:26:21 <Jafet> Sounds promising. Now most people, see, they would just blindly start with the singleton group.
00:28:57 <HackEgo> [U+22C4 DIAMOND OPERATOR] [U+2337 APL FUNCTIONAL SYMBOL SQUISH QUAD]
00:31:05 <tswett> All right, I successfully managed to prove a different theorem.
00:31:13 <tswett> Namely: the cyclic group of order 2 has at least two elements.
00:32:17 <fizzie> Did you use the diamond operator and the APL functional symbol squish quad to denote those two elements?
00:48:28 <myname> factorio looks like a nice little df like
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00:49:27 <izabera> the goal is literally to make it boring
00:49:52 <izabera> i guess i don't really get that kind of game
00:50:20 <myname> if the game is good, it cannot get boring
00:51:08 <tswett> I really like Factorio.
00:51:25 <tswett> The idea of the game is that you design stuff and build it.
00:51:46 <myname> izabera: have you ever played df?
00:52:30 <tswett> That's pretty much, like, what I do.
00:53:42 <izabera> sure why not, it's almost 3am and i just had my 5th coffee
00:53:52 <tswett> I take tools and figure out how to use them to achieve goals.
00:54:12 <myname> it is one of the deepest games out there. sadly it is also one of the most complex ones
00:54:38 <Jafet> You'd think Mine Tycoon would be a boring game, but it's actually about excavation.
00:55:32 <tswett> By the way, I'm pretty sure that in tennis, scores of 30–30 and 40–40 are functionally equivalent.
00:55:48 <tswett> In either case, the condition for winning is gaining a two-point lead.
00:57:59 <hppavilion[1]> Can someone look over Stare and give me suggestions? http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stare
01:01:29 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I like it. Consider eliminating unnecessary instructions.
01:01:32 <Elite-1> hypnotic dendro-erotic suggestions in order toenslave body and mind
01:02:17 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I don't want to make it a Turing Tarpit (or Push-Down Automaton Tarpit), I want to make it a useable, but strange, language
01:03:08 <Elite-1> consider eliminating relevant instructions then
01:03:28 <tswett> In that case, you're missing the bitwise logic operators.
01:04:24 <tswett> All you really need is either bitwise "and" or bitwise "or"; bitwise "not" is the same as subtracting from -1. Well... that's if you're using two's complement representation.
01:05:39 <tswett> And then you can use de Morgan's laws to get the other one.
01:05:47 <tswett> But you may want to just go ahead and include all three.
01:06:37 <tswett> Are numbers allowed to be arbitrarily large, or is there a limit to them?
01:07:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44171&oldid=44132 * Hppavilion1 * (+304) added a push instruction, fixed up the interpreter description.
01:08:09 <tswett> `unidecode ⰀⰁⰂⰃⰄⰅⰆⰇⰈⰉⰊⰋⰌⰍⰎⰏ
01:08:10 <HackEgo> [U+2C00 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER AZU] [U+2C01 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER BUKY] [U+2C02 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER VEDE] [U+2C03 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER GLAGOLI] [U+2C04 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER DOBRO] [U+2C05 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER YESTU] [U+2C06 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER ZHIVETE] [U+2C07 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER DZELO] [U+2C08 GLAGOLITIC
01:08:44 <HackEgo> [U+FE18 PRESENTATION FORM FOR VERTICAL RIGHT WHITE LENTICULAR BRAKCET]
01:08:49 <oren_> Ⰴ = GLAGOLITIC ERECT PENIS
01:08:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: The numbers are equivalent to "long"s on the machine on which it was compiled. Or in the case of my implementation, 64-bit integers because I'm using python
01:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Actually, I think I'll make the numbers double-precision floating points
01:16:13 <hppavilion[1]> (Or in the Python implementation, whatever you call a variable's type in python (as that's how python works))
01:16:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Wait, but what if you call PRINT on a noninteger floating point thing?
01:17:30 <HackEgo> [U+2C04 GLAGOLITIC CAPITAL LETTER DOBRO]
01:17:58 <tswett> I wouldn't have been completely surprised if it had been GLAGOLITIC ERECT PENIS. Or, I guess, GLAGOLITIC SYMBOL FOR ERECT PENIS.
01:18:05 <tswett> The latter would be more likely.
01:19:04 <oren_> someone should add Ⰲ and Ⰴ to myndzi
01:19:57 <oerjan> myndzi: can you add Ⰲ and Ⰴ twh
01:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44172&oldid=44171 * Hppavilion1 * (+1693) Clarified the syntax, added text commands and some new command(s).
01:27:39 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
01:27:48 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!*5f760a3b@*.com/ip.95.118.10.59.
01:27:48 -!- oerjan has kicked Elite-1 Hi hagb4rd.
01:28:25 <oerjan> took me too long to be sure this time...
01:28:34 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
01:30:14 <oerjan> a troll who has been banned here for years
01:30:18 <tswett> Everyone, I have a useful video.
01:30:19 <tswett> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqEzI9rPvP4
01:31:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44173&oldid=44172 * Hppavilion1 * (+559) Always-executed line type, Hello World.
01:32:14 <izabera> what's an efficient way to find the longest substring that appears more than once in a string?
01:32:48 <oerjan> tswett: nice top comment
01:33:13 <hppavilion[1]> 3) Find if it's been answered. If not, ask it. Proceed to step 4. If not, continue normally
01:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> 5) Profit (from the royalties from the application you just made)
01:34:42 <izabera> i was expecting a ??? step
01:38:01 <oerjan> izabera: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/11853668/how-do-i-find-the-largest-sequence-in-a-string-that-is-repeated-at-least-once fwiw
01:38:49 * oerjan did steps 1 and 2 in google instead
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01:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44174 * Hppavilion1 * (+5133) Moved contents of Stare here
01:42:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44175&oldid=44173 * Hppavilion1 * (-4846) Changed page to a "list" of dialects
01:43:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44176&oldid=44175 * Hppavilion1 * (+21) Fixed opening text to reflect the page rearrangement
01:45:36 <hppavilion[1]> The page may change in the future to clarify the design, but no new features will be added to that page's specification
01:46:27 <hppavilion[1]> Stare 2.0 will have support for Functions, libraries, etc.
01:52:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44177&oldid=44174 * Hppavilion1 * (+23) Fixed some inconsistencies
01:52:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44178&oldid=44177 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Linked to the ZWG
01:53:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: btw we do have a "Move" button in the wiki menu
01:53:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44179&oldid=44178 * Hppavilion1 * (-6)
01:53:59 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I know, but I didn't move the entire page, just most of it
01:55:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44180&oldid=44179 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Grammar
01:57:30 <HackEgo> cat: bin\?: No such file or directory
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02:00:40 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
02:00:50 <oerjan> sic transit gloria mundi
02:07:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44181&oldid=44176 * Hppavilion1 * (+258) Dialect summary
02:07:58 <tswett> "Thus goes the glory of the world." No, that can't be the right translation.
02:08:49 <tswett> Huh, apparently that is, in fact, the right translation.
02:08:57 <tswett> Except "passes" for "goes" would be better.
02:11:06 -!- heddwch has changed nick to shikh.
02:13:24 <fizzie> "Diseases are transmitted through Gloria's mouth."
02:14:04 -!- shikh has changed nick to heddwch.
02:14:49 <fizzie> Also: ars longa, vita brevis: "our long white beards".
02:15:16 <fizzie> I think I learned both from something that was in Finnish.
02:15:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44182&oldid=44181 * Hppavilion1 * (+881) Rearranged article to list upcoming dialects (by type system)
02:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm planning for a total of 4 differenent Stare dialects, two statically typed and two dynamic
02:16:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dumbf*ck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44183&oldid=8347 * 108.45.95.33 * (+181) Added info about first implementation
02:16:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dumbf*ck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44184&oldid=44183 * 108.45.95.33 * (-22)
02:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dumbf*ck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44185&oldid=44184 * 108.45.95.33 * (-6) /* Implementation */
02:20:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44186&oldid=44182 * Hppavilion1 * (+559) Basic Idea
02:23:11 <hppavilion[1]> Is Haskell's If/Then/Else defined in haskell or is it primative?
02:24:04 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lu98k5vVP-Y
02:24:20 <tswett> My best guess at a Latin translation for "our long white beards" would be, oh... "nostrae barbae blancae largae".
02:24:25 <tswett> When in doubt, append -ae to everything.
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02:24:35 <hppavilion[1]> Because I can see then and else just being an identity function and if being a function that accepts three arguments and returns the second if the first is true, else the third
02:25:01 <hppavilion[1]> Making if/then/else a massive lie that is really just there for ease of reading
02:25:41 * hppavilion[1] is now shipping Perlskell because he is very strange
02:26:10 <zzo38> Well, let's see what it is then
02:26:19 <Phantom_Hoover> in agda if then else is just a single function because you can have arbitrary fixity for your functions
02:26:55 <tswett> Well, the syntax is "if x then y else z"; if it were as you said, the syntax would have to be "if x (then y) (else z)".
02:26:57 <hppavilion[1]> It's like haskell, but with perl's demonic type system
02:28:06 <oren_> perlskell: "He was a washed up has-been who was big in the 90's. She was a bookish mathematics professor. Can love bloom? Watch wednesday night at 9!"
02:28:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it's much easier to just have then and else be sole inhabitants of the types Then and Else and then have if discard its 2nd and 4th arguments
02:28:47 <oren_> obviously Haskell is female
02:29:18 <tswett> They're both nonbinary.
02:29:21 <oren_> anything ending in elle is female. it's like, arule
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02:29:45 <fizzie> I thought there was a tradition of having if' x y z = if x then y else z.
02:29:45 <hppavilion[1]> I remember from when I was learning haskell that else is actually a variable defined to "True" in the standard library!
02:29:49 <tswett> Arule, the plural of the Italian word "arula".
02:29:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: that was "otherwise".
02:30:32 <tswett> GT translates "our long white beards" as "longis albis cresceret barba eorum", which I'm sure is wrong.
02:30:43 <oren_> and obviously, perl is a washed up has-been who was big in the 90's
02:30:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
02:30:55 <lambdabot> Source not found. Sorry about this, I know it's a bit silly.
02:31:00 <fizzie> Possibly the if' thing isn't all that widespread.
02:31:07 <lambdabot> arr@(Array l u _) ! i = unsafeAt arr (index (l,u) i)
02:31:11 <fizzie> I'm sure I've seen it somewhere, though.
02:31:18 <lambdabot> Source not found. The more you drive -- the dumber you get.
02:31:28 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
02:31:32 <lambdabot> Source not found. Abort, Retry, Panic?
02:31:48 <lambdabot> Source not found. I feel much better now.
02:32:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. Wrong! You cheating scum!
02:32:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. Maybe you made a typo?
02:32:13 <tswett> I did in fact get one thing right in my translation attempt. The Latin word for "beards" is "barbae".
02:32:24 <lambdabot> arr@(Array l u _) ! i = unsafeAt arr (index (l,u) i)
02:33:04 <zzo38> I don't know of any Peano Axioms for exponentiation?
02:33:30 <tswett> There aren't very many Peano axioms, and exponentiation isn't one of them.
02:34:06 <tswett> I'm creating a computer language, vaguely like Haskell, in which you can define mathematical stuff.
02:34:16 <hppavilion[1]> What is the definition of x**y for natural numbers? You are given only the operation S(x) which returns x+1
02:34:31 <tswett> Well, define multiplication first.
02:34:58 <tswett> Then x**S(y) is x*(x**y) and x**0 is 1.
02:35:13 <tswett> My language kind of has a definition of the natural numbers.
02:35:38 <tswett> Actually, no, now it *does* have a definition of the natural numbers.
02:35:57 <zzo38> Hofstadter's book "Godel, Escher, Bach" discusses a programming language "BlooP" and "FlooP", with conditions as well as comparing numbers and addition and multiplication, counted loops, and a few others.
02:36:11 <pikhq> x+S(y) is S(x)+y and x+0 is x. HTH
02:36:30 <tswett> Here's the definition of the natural numbers in my language.
02:36:31 <zzo38> I have found that you don't need conditions, comparison, addition, or multiplication, and can define all of them in terms of the successor operation and counted loops.
02:36:36 <zzo38> So yes clearly it is possible to do
02:36:51 <tswett> variety NatNumAlgebra { sort Nat; zero : Nat; succ : Nat -> Nat; }; presentation NatNum : NatNumAlgebra { };
02:37:24 <zzo38> tswett: Ah, OK. I can see its working I think
02:37:44 <tswett> First, you define the concept of a "natural number algebra".
02:37:47 <zzo38> (Although I don't know what "presentation" does, as the example given is blank)
02:38:03 <tswett> A natural number algebra essentially consists of a set, an element of the set, and a function on the set.
02:38:04 <zzo38> (But in this case it looks like OK if blank)
02:38:47 <zzo38> I can see all of that, yes, it is already clearly enough
02:39:39 <zzo38> Do you have other examples (including some with "presentation" with some stuff inside { } block)?
02:39:42 <tswett> Then you define the natural numbers as being the free natural number algebra generated by no generators.
02:39:57 <tswett> Yeah, sure. Have... the Klein four-group.
02:40:26 <tswett> variety Group { algebra : Monoid; inv : Elem -> Elem; forall x : Elem, mult x (inv x) = ident; forall x : Elem, mult (inv x) x = ident; };
02:41:20 <tswett> presentation KleinFourGroup : Group { a : Elem; b : Elem; mult a a = ident; mult b b = ident; mult a b = mult b a }
02:41:49 <zzo38> Ah, OK now I can see how that works
02:42:39 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see Peano's Axioms extended to defined for all real- or better, all complex- numbers
02:43:02 <coppro> tswett: does the KleinFourGroup sing love songs?
02:43:20 <tswett> coppro: I haven't worked out the language sufficiently far that it can determine that.
02:43:29 <tswett> I guess the path of love is never smooth.
02:44:57 <oerjan> @pl \x y z -> if x then y else z
02:45:27 <oerjan> it's used there because otherwise @pl wouldn't have anything to return
02:45:49 <tswett> @pl (\x -> x x) (\x -> x x)
02:45:52 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
02:46:16 <tswett> @pl \y -> (\x -> y (x x)) (\x -> y (x x))
02:46:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: haskell's if x then y then z is officially syntactic sugar for case x of { True -> y; False -> z }
02:46:58 <tswett> Too bad I can't get the type of that expression.
02:47:03 <tswett> @type ap (. join id) (. join id)
02:47:04 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: a0 ~ a0 -> b
02:47:05 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a0 -> b) -> (a0 -> b) -> b
02:47:05 <lambdabot> Actual type: ((a0 -> b) -> b) -> (a0 -> b) -> b
02:47:12 <oerjan> case is the most primitive pattern matching construct in the report
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02:48:13 <tswett> Now, there's a funny thing about varieties and presentations.
02:48:29 <tswett> Theoretically, presentations are redundant. You could just move all of the things from the presentation into the variety.
02:48:41 <tswett> And then use the empty presentation to get the thing you wanted.
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02:50:31 <coppro> did you go to NYC two weeks early?
02:50:39 <boily> no, I was in Singapore :D
02:50:46 <lambdabot> coppro said 14d 16h 50m 3s ago: http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~scshunt/mj-reference-wip.pdf
02:51:12 <tswett> But presentations are restricted: you can only define nullary operators (that is, constants), not other operators; and identities can't use universal quantification.
02:51:36 <tswett> I guess ultimately, a presentation is a specific type of way of extending a variety to get another variety.
02:51:38 <coppro> boily: actually that one's sort of out of date
02:51:53 <coppro> I decided scribus sucked so I've redone the top half in inkscape. Haven't done the table yet though
02:52:20 <boily> "*munch*", says I with a Double Big Mac in my mouth.
02:52:50 <coppro> boily: what was in Signapore, besides boily?
02:52:56 <tswett> Now, it's kind of interesting what a finitely presented natural number algebra turns out to be.
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02:53:34 <tswett> Namely: it's a state machine, where there's a defined initial state, and some states have defined successor states.
02:53:49 <tswett> If a state doesn't have a defined successor state, it just automatically gets an anonymous successor state.
02:54:00 <tswett> It's possible for two different states to have the same successor state.
02:54:17 <tswett> There's no input; the initial state completely determines the sequence of states the machine goes through.
02:54:54 <boily> coppro: yup. two weeks over there under the sun, with a weekend spent in Malaysia.
02:54:58 <tswett> Of course, you're only allowed to define the successor states for finitely many states; otherwise it wouldn't be finitely presented.
02:57:19 <boily> I'll upload pictures some time this week.
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03:10:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44187&oldid=44186 * Hppavilion1 * (+170) Stare 1.1
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03:14:54 <zzo38> Is "Hellu" anything like "Hello"?
03:15:58 <boily> it's a good enough appruximation.
03:27:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.1]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44188 * Hppavilion1 * (+946) Created update log.
03:28:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.2]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44189 * Hppavilion1 * (+534) Created Page (WIP)
03:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm creating updates more as a symbolic thing than a practical thing xD
03:29:57 <hppavilion[1]> Honestly, the updates are so that the base isn't too featureful xD
03:33:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44190&oldid=44187 * Hppavilion1 * (+298) Stare 1.2
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03:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> So... I've already planned out a programming language and 2 updates to it, along with some farther-in-the-future updates for later
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03:50:22 <zzo38> You say "so that the base isn't too featureful"; are these extensions, or what is it?
04:20:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Stare 1.0 is the original language, Stare 1.x languages are upgrades of the language, Stare x.0 is an in-house derivative, and Stare x.y is an upgrade of that in-house derivative
04:24:45 <oren_> აბგდევზთიკლმნოპჟრსტუფქღყშჩცძწჭხჯჰჱჲჳჴჵჶჷჸჹჺ
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04:55:20 <zzo38> What kind of game?
04:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> I just want someone to do it and then to get the memory of having done it xD
04:55:43 <zzo38> I don't know much about Prolog programming.
04:57:10 <zzo38> Try to see what you can make with QUACKVM, or a higher level programming language compiler to target it. I would be interested to see what anyone else can do with it.
05:01:18 <MDude> I don't see a apge for QUACKVM
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05:02:40 <zzo38> There is no page in esolang wiki or anywhere else, only a .zip archive containing documentation and C codes and some example programs
05:05:14 <zzo38> (There is a Minesweeper game, Robot find kitten game, a start of a Panel de pon puzzle mode game, a Munching squares demo, and a few other small examples.)
05:05:46 <zzo38> I just used the assembly language, although you might prefer other kind of programming languages
05:09:55 <zzo38> No I do not use GitHub, I just have the plain files
05:10:57 <zzo38> It is easier and simpler to work with and do not require web browser or a git client or anything else like that, you can just download the file.
05:12:02 <zzo38> To run a program you run it specifying the ROM filename on the "quackvm" commandline, optionally followed by a disk filename. The provided implementation might not work except in xterm. To assemble, put filename on commandline of "quackasm"; output goes to stdout and must be redirected to write to the ROM file. (You can also append banks by appending to the file.)
05:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> But it'd get more exposure if you were to put it on GH. You could, of course, share it on GitHub AND have it on your website
05:12:59 <zzo38> Yes, GCC will do, it is what I used.
05:13:20 <zzo38> Or just run them with bash, they should compile if you do that
05:13:54 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, I'm a windows user for the moment xD
05:14:11 <hppavilion[1]> So A) I can't use bash and B) I don't have termios.h
05:14:26 <zzo38> Then you probably cannot compile quackvm.c at all; you could try to write your own implementation though.
05:14:34 <hppavilion[1]> I've been meaning to dual-boot with a linux distribution
05:15:33 <zzo38> I don't expect that implementation to work on Windows. However, you can look at the codes and the documentation and use that to make up your own implementation for Windows.
05:16:16 <zzo38> The assembler shouldn't need termios
05:17:03 <zzo38> The VM implementation uses it to set noncanonical mode
05:17:36 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a python programmer. Not much C experience. What's noncanonical code?
05:17:58 <zzo38> Noncanonical mode for terminals means that input is done by characters rather than by lines.
05:18:27 <zzo38> To use the assembler in Windows, you probably need to add something into the program to make stdout into binary mode (and I will accept patches for it)
05:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> While I'm at it, I might as well send you the .exes to pack with it if you wnat
05:19:15 <zzo38> However the .rom files are the output of the .asm files so you don't need to assemble them if you want to use only the existing programs without changing it
05:20:35 <hppavilion[1]> Let me check the python code I copied earlier for /my/ vm
05:21:35 <zzo38> If you want, you can try to make an implementation of QUACKVM for Windows. As long as it is open-source I will agree to either include the files or to make a file that lists the links to the Windows versions as well as any other implementations and related stuff
05:22:08 <zzo38> Make sure you have the latest quackvm.zip the earlier ones had a few mistakes!
05:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> I probably should just use python if I'm going to make an implementation
05:22:47 <zzo38> You can use Python if you want to, that's OK
05:23:16 <hppavilion[1]> I assume files are flat binaries because you didn't have any suggestions for me xD
05:23:59 <zzo38> Note that some features are optional to implement.
05:24:23 <Patashu> Hi all, is it ok to ask an assembly related question here, or is there a more appropriate channel?
05:24:44 <Patashu> (asking on behalf of a friend who's stuck on a programming assignment. I would know how to solve it if it's not assembly)
05:24:48 <zzo38> Patashu: I don't know; ask anyways in case anyone knows, but if there are others you can try that too
05:25:03 <zzo38> The URL is the same as the previous versions; it is: http://zzo38computer.org/prog/quackvm.zip
05:25:59 <Patashu> so what the program needs to do is read and validate numbers from the user. from the second number onwards, it also needs to compare the new and last number and print which one was higher.
05:26:18 <Patashu> so say you put in 1, then 2, it compares 2 to 1 and 2 is greater, then you put in 30, it compares 30 to 2 and 30 is greater, etc
05:26:26 <zzo38> Patashu: But you should nevertheless mention (whether you ask here or elsewhere), assembly language for what computer?
05:26:41 <Patashu> http://pastie.org/private/kztje7hm3tuvpdlhauv7ba#27 I think it's called nasm, e.g. this is documentation for it http://www.tortall.net/projects/yasm/manual/html/nasm-effaddr.html
05:26:53 <Patashu> so the specific problem we're having is, we want to swap the pointers to our two input buffers after reading each number in
05:27:14 <Patashu> so we're always, for example, inputting the newest number into input1, then comparing input1 to input2, then swapping what was in input1 to input2 and reading into input1 again
05:27:21 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a bit clueless. What exactly does "the predicate succeeding" do in your VM?
05:27:51 <Patashu> but the problem we're having is that lea input2, dx ; and mov input2, dx ; are both compiler errors.
05:28:14 <Patashu> and we know that it will work if you surround input2 in brackets, like this: [input2] but that does something different - it uses the value input2 is pointing to, not the 'pointer' of input2 itself, and we want to swap the two pointers specifically
05:28:44 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It matters if the instruction has the predicate bit set; then a cell follows which tells it where to go if the predicate succeeds/fails (depending on the sign bit)
05:29:05 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I believe the newest documentation documents that? If it isn't clear, you can tell me and I can try to fix it.
05:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm still uploading the newest docs to Drive so I can read them
05:29:43 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It is a plain text file, not a MS Office document
05:30:31 <zzo38> Yes, but it is still a plain text file. The .doc extension is used for both (although using it for plain text is a bit old), although Wordpad should be able to open it anyways hopefully?
05:30:38 <zzo38> Patashu: I don't know much of nasm syntax or x86 instruction set, nor do I know what other channel to try
05:30:51 <Patashu> zzo38: NP, thanks for hearing me out
05:31:09 <zzo38> Patashu: But if someone else happens to be on and who knows the answer, they will answer you too
05:32:18 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: So you can read it with Wordpad. (Notepad will not work because Notepad requires CRLF line endings)
05:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> Doesn't matter though, I uploaded it to Google Drive and had Google Docs convert it to a Google Docs document
05:33:17 <zzo38> You can do that if you want, that is fine, the document is public domain anyways
05:34:49 <zzo38> All other files there are also public domain.
05:35:54 <zzo38> Sorry, if I am being unclear in the documentation, then I hope to fix it. You could try to understand by the C codes too if you want to, even if you cannot understand C codes very well, it might be better than reading only one file
05:36:20 <hppavilion[1]> I think I just don't understand low-level processing enough xD
05:37:06 <zzo38> That might be it. It can be a good idea to learn, not only for this but for dealing with other stuff too
05:37:38 -!- shachaf has set topic: English spelling reforms | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
05:38:42 <oren_> all characters of my font (so far) in unicode ordering: http://www.orenwatson.be/fontcharlist.htm
05:40:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, you've documented the instruction format and encoding of that interpreter?
05:40:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I have done it now (I don't know if it is clearly enough)
05:41:29 <zzo38> oren_: That looks like good so far
05:45:05 <hppavilion[1]> I need a way to convert a string of bits to a floating point
05:46:25 <zzo38> There are no floating-point instructions
05:46:58 <hppavilion[1]> I mean instructions that operatate on registers containing double-precision floating point numbers
05:47:32 <zzo38> Ah, well, I do not know Python, nor have I seen such instruction in your documentation? Maybe it was a bit old one!
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05:48:49 <hppavilion[1]> I was thinking about a SETF instruction, but I don't need that
05:49:22 <hppavilion[1]> But I must've added those instructions after I talked to you
05:49:48 <zzo38> What did you expect to need them for?
05:51:45 <zzo38> Yes, if you intend to use with programs that require floating-point. Many programs don't and use fixed-point. But, look in Python documentation maybe you can find it
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06:47:16 <HackEgo> danddreclist 67: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
06:47:25 <zzo38> I will add the character sheets a bit later
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13:35:39 <ais523> hmm, spambot says ATM MASTER CARD, and although it's almost certainly a typo for MasterCard, there's somehow a very different connotation
13:38:17 <fizzie> Did you get to see Sunday's plot-of-the-day? http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/
13:38:18 <bender> ATM INTERCALDIATE CARD
13:39:15 <ais523> oh wow, margins is going to be hilarious again isn't it?
13:39:44 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I can't see the top few lines at the same time as the graph at the bottom
13:41:24 <ais523> fizzie: suggested improvement to that: in the graph at the bottom, show which program won
13:41:39 <ais523> correlation between win rate and cycle length is interesting to know
13:44:32 <fizzie> Mm. I could use three different colors for the bar (with a legend on the right side), although currently there's always at least one zero-height bar, so I'd have to pad them a bit.
13:44:39 <ais523> !bfjoust test ,[.,]!Hello, world!
13:44:47 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_test: 6.1
13:45:06 <b_jonas> THE PLATINUM YENDORIAN MASTER CARD
13:45:18 <b_jonas> and THE MASTER CARD OF THIEVERY
13:46:13 <b_jonas> btw, my latest adventures in Windows land:
13:46:40 <b_jonas> network share with two directories, named "a" and "A", in the same directory. Explorer lists "A" no matter which one I'm trying to view.
13:50:03 <zemhill> ais523.test: points -32.10, score 3.26, rank 47/47
13:52:08 <fizzie> The plots still won't auto-update, sadly.
13:54:11 <myname> a brainfuck programming game
13:55:30 <ais523> fizzie: your website is missing a link to the repository of programs
13:55:33 <ais523> (I'm currently updating the wiki page)
13:55:38 <ais523> (and noticed it isn't listed anywhere)
13:56:25 <ais523> seems to be http://zem.fi/bfjoust/hill.git/
13:56:51 <b_jonas> izabera: look on esolangs.org, there's an entry
13:57:07 <b_jonas> it's a strange game ais523 is good at
13:57:15 <ais523> I'm editing the page right now
13:57:19 <ais523> so the bot should post a link to it soon
13:57:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44191&oldid=40553 * Ais523 * (-246) update information about the hills; fix capitalization of "brainfuck"
13:58:18 <izabera> b_jonas: reading about it now
13:58:35 <ais523> Gregor: your certificate for https://codu.org is expired
14:01:54 <ais523> b_jonas: one of the things I love about BF Joust is that unlike almost all competitive games, you can play it against yourself
14:02:18 <ais523> because there's no hidden information involved, you can see all the programs you're competing against and analyze how they work, but that doesn't necessarily help in beating them
14:03:06 <b_jonas> ais523: sure. competitive rubik cube solving is like that too.
14:03:29 <b_jonas> ais523: there's hidden information, but only in the sense that the tape length and polarity are hidden from the bfjoust code.
14:03:50 <ais523> b_jonas: rubiks cube solving is competitive only in the sense that you can compare two solution events to see which one had the shorter time
14:03:57 <ais523> there's no interaction between the different players
14:04:12 <ais523> BF Joust has plenty of interaction, but the twist is you have to write down your strategy in all possible situations in advance
14:04:12 <b_jonas> only metagame interaction.
14:05:38 <b_jonas> so then it's like... ICFP contest 2004 about the ants?
14:05:56 <b_jonas> that's a two-player game where you have to write down the strategy in advance
14:06:20 <b_jonas> people played it for a while after the contest, though I think they have mostly stopped now.
14:06:38 <ais523> yes, I think that's a good comparison
14:07:16 <b_jonas> it also uses a somewhat simple programming language, one that doesn't have a large memory or registers.
14:07:51 <b_jonas> a large general purpose random access memory that is.
14:10:17 <b_jonas> in windows, what's the proper combination of backslashes and/or slashes in a pathname like \\?\UNC\\\HOSTNAME\sharename\ ?
14:11:47 <ais523> and my searches are failing because duckduckgo doesn't recognise \\?\ as a search term
14:11:55 * ais523 tries putting quotes around it
14:12:04 <ais523> oh, now it does recognise it, but can't find any results anyway
14:14:22 <b_jonas> apparently it needs a single backslash between UNC and the server name
14:15:29 <ais523> do I even want to know what you're doing?
14:16:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I mentioned above:
14:17:16 <fizzie> ais523: Yeah, I was sure I had the hill repository link somewhere, but turns out I didn't. The program names in the score table link to the gitweb view, which I think used to have the URL, but it seems to have gotten lost.
14:17:31 <b_jonas> "btw, my latest adventures in Windows land: network share with two directories, named "a" and "A", in the same directory. Explorer lists "A" no matter which one I'm trying to view."
14:18:12 <ais523> I thought it might be connected to that
14:18:31 <b_jonas> I want to try to list both directories out of curiosity
14:19:04 <b_jonas> I don't think this will help, because it's still case insensitive normally
14:21:10 <b_jonas> it's non-deterministic too
14:21:16 <b_jonas> apparently it's locally cached for a while
14:21:25 <b_jonas> so whcihever dir I try to access first, I'm stuck at it
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14:22:43 <Jafet> Interestingly, bfjoust resembles not a tilt (lance charge) but a traditional joust (with multiple rounds and fighting styles)
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14:36:49 <fizzie> Jafet: Is the latter composed of multiple instances of the former?
14:38:32 <fizzie> (I've been wondering about the word to use for a single "instance" (particular pair of programs, tape length and polarity). The article sometimes calls it a "match", but it's not even consistent.
14:39:31 <ais523> fizzie: "round" seems to make sense
14:39:39 <ais523> btw, if you're talking about the wiki article
14:39:43 <fizzie> In "-- tournaments generally run 42 matches between the two warriors -- A program is scored based on the number of configurations in which it won, minus the number of configurations in which it lost; thus +42 is a perfect score for an individual match --" the first half implies there are 42 matches, but the second half implies "an individual match" is all 42.
14:39:52 <ais523> you can make it consistent and then people will start using your terminology
14:40:08 <ais523> that's how the whole "sieve" and "kettle" thing started
14:40:21 <ais523> (this also implies that the word you choose is likely to catch on even if it makes no sense)
14:40:56 <fizzie> I don't remember my wiki password, and my password manager is inaccessible. :)
14:41:20 <fizzie> The article uses the word "round" for one of what I've been calling cycle, too.
14:41:32 <fizzie> I think I just read that too fast.
14:41:41 <fizzie> "In each round of a match, both warriors simultaneously execute one of the above instructions at each time step (or 'cycle')."
14:42:00 <fizzie> I wouldn't mind it being "match" for the full set of 42, and "round" for one configuration.
14:42:29 <fizzie> My protobuf messages call the former a single "joust".
14:44:01 <ais523> I think "cycle" is standard by now
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14:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44192&oldid=44191 * 74.125.57.54 * (-7) /* Matches */ (Hopefully) consistify terminology.
14:47:39 <fizzie> Usernames are for chumps anyway.
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14:52:59 <Gregor> ais523: I know, but I've been having issues with StartSSL @_@
14:53:15 <ais523> Gregor: fair enough, just making sure you were aware
14:53:40 <ais523> the whole certs and expiry thing is basically a blatant cashgrab as it is
14:53:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44193&oldid=44192 * 74.125.57.54 * (+109) /* Competitive hills */ Tweak zem.fi hill replacement strategy description.
14:54:14 <fizzie> My StartSSL cert for zem.fi is expiring on October 7 this year.
14:54:15 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I guess my programming mind saw the two as equivalent
14:55:06 <fizzie> I was hoping letsencrypt would've been launched (as scheduled) so I wouldn't have to keep dealing with StartSSL.
14:56:59 <fizzie> I think they've only moved the announced dates back once.
14:57:08 <fizzie> (Before that, they just didn't have launch dates.)
14:59:22 <fizzie> Arguably, my replacement strategy is "less sane" (in that you can replace a better program by a worse one), but that's what I ended up when implementing it.
15:02:04 <ais523> fizzie: it's equivalent over time, the only difference is the instant at which you take the snapshot
15:02:23 <ais523> because it affects the scores of the incoming program
15:04:03 <HackEgo> [U+037E GREEK QUESTION MARK]
15:06:05 <tswett> Maybe I should use that as my regular question mark; what do you guys think;
15:08:18 <Jafet> Why not use U+200B
15:09:55 -!- J_Arcane has joined.
15:12:43 <b_jonas> fizzie: how about "game" for a particular pair of programs on a length and polarity, and "match" for the set of all games between two programs on each length and polarity?
15:13:56 <b_jonas> or maybe the first one could be a "run"
15:15:02 <fizzie> There was one instance of calling it a "run", but I just went with a "round".
15:16:46 <b_jonas> and then you need words for the set with two programs on a given polarity but varying length, and the set with two programs with a given length but varying polarity. :-)
15:17:59 <fizzie> I think I'll call one a "slice", and the other a "sluice".
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15:26:58 <b_jonas> sluice? is that a real word?
15:30:16 <lambdabot> *** "sluice" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
15:30:20 <lambdabot> n 1: conduit that carries a rapid flow of water controlled by a
15:30:22 <lambdabot> sluicegate [syn: {sluice}, {sluiceway}, {penstock}]
15:30:26 <lambdabot> v 1: pour as if from a sluice; "An aggressive tide sluiced
15:30:50 <fizzie> As far as making sense goes, it's in the sieve/kettle ballpark.
15:31:28 <fizzie> 2. (1) sluice, flush -- (irrigate with water from a sluice; "sluice the earth")
15:31:38 <fizzie> "sluice the earth" sounds like something a supervillain would say.
15:33:15 <b_jonas> oh, a *conduit*. well, that explains everything: http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1013.html
15:33:37 <ais523> I was aware of the word "sluice", but I wouldn't necessarily expect a non-native speaker to know it
15:33:39 <ais523> it's a pretty obscure word
15:34:43 <ais523> "slice" is much better-known
15:34:45 * APic no native English-Speaker, and did not know that Word
15:34:58 <ais523> (although a sluice-gate could probably be used for slicing, especially if you sharpened the bottom of it)
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15:37:06 <b_jonas> ok, so sluice. that means we have conduits in bfjoust.
15:38:15 <ais523> huh, "penstock" is a synonym for "sluice"?
15:39:15 <b_jonas> well, in some of their meanings
15:40:00 <b_jonas> great build system set up here, I think I only have to edit the description file in like six places to add a new set of source files.
15:43:29 <b_jonas> http://darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1013.html has some great technobabble. Heisenfram, Hyperfluid, Intermix, Phlebotinum, and Wavelet conduits.
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15:52:07 <fizzie> ais523: I probably know of 'sluice' because of encountering references to sluice gates in somewhere or another.
15:52:26 <ais523> sluices and sluicegates go together, really
15:52:26 <fizzie> I think a game, perhaps.
15:52:40 <ais523> you need a sluice gate in order to be a sluice
15:52:46 <ais523> but a sluice gate doesn't have a whole lot of useful applications
15:52:49 <ais523> gating sluices is the main one
15:52:50 <fizzie> http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Garamsythe_Waterway "The Sluice Gate Key can be obtained from Sorbet after completion of the White Mousse Hunt."
15:53:03 <ais523> fizzie: huh, I didn't expect an FFXII reference
15:53:08 <fizzie> It's possible I knew of sluices beforehand, but I've at least obtained the Sluice Gate Key.
15:53:25 <oerjan> today i did something i'd never thought plausible: i voted in a norwegian church election.
15:54:34 <ais523> oerjan: did you care about who won?
15:54:47 <ais523> I voted in the UK local police commisioner elections a while ago
15:54:59 <ais523> which had one of the lowest turnouts ever
15:55:08 <ais523> mostly as a negative vote to make sure that particular candidates didn't win
15:55:20 <b_jonas> local police commisioner elections? I haven't heared of such a thing.
15:55:36 <b_jonas> and sure, negative vote is perfectly normal, it happens on bigger elections too.
15:55:40 <oerjan> it was for a good cause. it so happens that this year the main issue in the election has been whether the church should perform gay marriages...
15:56:04 <b_jonas> when all the candidates seem bad, some of them can still be worse, and then it's worth to vote for another, even if you're not sure who's the best candidate.
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15:56:25 <fizzie> ais523: What all do you elect here? I think I'm eligible to vote on some local things now.
15:56:27 <oerjan> (also, the church election is colocated with the municipality elections, so it was a simple thing to vote in both)
15:56:48 <ais523> fizzie: there are two main groups of elections (which sometimes fall on the same day, which makes counting easier)
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15:57:17 <ais523> one is a general election; that used to happen approximately every five years (I think a new law means that it happens /exactly/ every five years because governments were scheduling them tactically)
15:57:38 <ais523> in a general election, every position for a member of parliament is voted on
15:58:14 <ais523> each person gets to vote for one member of parliament "slot" depending on where they live (the slots are called "constituencies" and have names like Birmingham Edgbaston)
15:58:53 <ais523> it's plurality voting, and the members of parliament then can plurality vote on laws
15:59:26 <ais523> the prime minister is loosely defined as "anyone who can plausibly claim to be prime minister, and not have over 50% of the MPs oppose that claim"
15:59:38 <ais523> the other main election is a local election; that affects the makeup of the local council
15:59:52 <fizzie> Apparently the general one requires citizenship.
15:59:56 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm. can that mean there's two opposing prime ministers?
16:00:13 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
16:00:27 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think there's a countably infinite number of prime ministers.
16:00:44 <ais523> that works much the same way as a general election, except a) the slots are more specific (and called "wards", not "constituencies"), and b) there are three candidates elected per ward (although in some elections, you vote for all three, some you vote for only one)
16:01:03 <ais523> fizzie: oh, the prime minister also has to be an MP
16:01:18 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, there can't be much more than that, unless they're overlapping a lot
16:01:28 <ais523> b_jonas: it could sort-of happen; however, the Queen has the final say as to who the Prime Minister is (although if she gets it wrong, she'll instantly be overriden by 50% of the MPs)
16:01:55 <ais523> it's generally considered that it would be very embarassing for the Queen to nominate someone Prime Minister and immediately get them voted out
16:01:58 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, that means it's effectively the same system as in Hungary, but defined backwards
16:02:22 <oerjan> ais523: wait, does that mean britain will no longer have freely scheduled dissolution of parliament?
16:02:27 <ais523> so she normally delays the official announcement until it's clear that one party can control a confidence vote
16:02:40 <ais523> oerjan: I believe so; there's some provision for emergencies, which may or may not be badly defined
16:03:07 <ais523> fizzie: and as for what "councillors" elected in a local election do, they get to control the budget for the local area and vote on how it's used
16:03:18 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
16:03:19 <b_jonas> here, the President of the Republic proposes a prime minister to make a government, but then the majority of the parliment has to vote _for_ him before he can become a prime minister, so the President generally proposes the one person who would get the votes in first place,
16:03:26 <ais523> in my case, the council in question is Birmingham City Council, who control the budget for all the day-to-day running of Birmingham
16:03:26 <oerjan> norway has had a fixed schedule basically always, and some have argued that we _should_ introduce dissolution
16:03:36 <ais523> things like funding the police, repairing streetlights, garbage collection
16:03:39 <b_jonas> and for that he may have to wait before parliment parties make an agreement, if no party is in majority after the elections.
16:04:23 <ais523> the council itself is funded by two sources: a) money from the national tax budget (allocated by parliament); b) council tax, which is charged against houses (more expensive the more impressive the house) and has to be paid by their owners
16:04:57 <b_jonas> ais523: all of that sounds normal, it's just the part where you said "local police commisioner" that sounds strange
16:05:02 <ais523> so a council election is really about how you want the council to prioritize their budget
16:05:10 <ais523> b_jonas: most people think it shouldn't have been an elected position in the first place
16:05:41 <ais523> we've only had one election for that
16:05:41 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, only those two? local councils can't have tax on industry?
16:06:11 -!- yiyus has joined.
16:06:19 <ais523> b_jonas: local councils can't impose their own taxes (other than council tax), although they can certainly try to claim a bigger share of the national taxes on whatever basis they feel like
16:06:37 <ais523> oh, btw, all this applies to England specifically; the situations in Wales, Scotland, and Northern Ireland are more complicated and I don't know all the details
16:10:25 <ais523> (and no idea about the smaller islands; Anglesey almost certainly counts as part of Wales, and the Hebrides and the like as part of Scotland, but what about the Isle of Man, or Wight, or the Channel Islands, or the Falklands?)
16:10:53 <b_jonas> yes, those all have crazy special rules
16:10:59 <b_jonas> about everything in general
16:11:41 <ais523> the UK being centered around an archipelago (which isn't all part of the UK, nor is all of the UK there) makes geographical terminology pretty awkward sometimes
16:12:00 <ais523> even the name of the archipelago itself is apparently very contentious on Wikipedia
16:12:13 <ais523> "British Isles" is the most common, but some Irish people feel that that's discriminatory
16:12:50 -!- ais523 has quit.
16:13:13 <Phantom_Hoover> (that kind of irish person is mostly out to make a point, though)
16:13:14 -!- ais523 has joined.
16:13:19 <Phantom_Hoover> <Phantom_Hoover> (that kind of irish person is mostly out to make a point, though)
16:13:32 <ais523> now I'm wondering if "Great Britain" (the name of the largest island in the archipelago) is contentious too
16:13:55 -!- ^v has joined.
16:23:48 <b_jonas> ais523: it's possible that different names are better for different purposes.
16:25:31 <b_jonas> Like, a politician has to use one name in his speech to avoid some people feeling insulted; but you have to use another name when addressing a postal mail so that it gets there more reliably.
16:25:52 <b_jonas> There's some crazy naming issues, like that about Macedonia or Taiwan.
16:26:27 <b_jonas> Or Serbia, which had to stop calling itself Yugoslavia after a while.
16:27:03 -!- Vorpal has joined.
16:27:54 <shachaf> `culprits useless_file.txt
16:28:58 <oerjan> "after a while"? did they keep doing it after montenegro left?
16:32:00 -!- S1 has joined.
16:32:19 <S1> Has someone here ever made something in BANCStar?
16:32:34 <ais523> b_jonas: weren't you a BANCStar "expert"?
16:32:39 <HackEgo> S1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:32:49 <oerjan> hm not even that long, they changed in 2003
16:32:50 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, maybe I've confused you with someone else then
16:32:50 <b_jonas> I was just interested and read some of the disassembler code
16:32:54 <ais523> bearing in mind that this is all relative
16:33:01 <ais523> knowing anything at all about BANCStar probably makes you an expert
16:33:07 -!- spiette has joined.
16:33:08 <S1> then even I am an expert
16:34:37 <S1> Just wondered if someone made something reasonable that could have been shown. But now I realize I would not want to read it anyway
16:35:54 -!- S1 has left.
16:35:57 -!- S1 has joined.
16:36:07 <S1> ais523: Why did you welcome me?
16:36:20 <oerjan> isn't there no surviving implementation of BANCStar?
16:37:16 <oerjan> secretly, he did it so as not to risk any `relcomes
16:37:30 <HackEgo> ?: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:38:01 <ais523> I have colours turned off in my client :-P
16:38:24 <shachaf> i,i `mkx rmelcome//rm bin/relcome
16:38:34 <S1> colours are not a valid topic for any irc
16:38:51 <oerjan> Vorpal: where have you been?
16:39:10 <oerjan> i guess it's vacation season
16:39:29 <Vorpal> oerjan, well I moved out from my parents, and like the week before that the HDD of the RPi that runs the znc bouncer died, and I didn't have time to deal with that until now
16:39:53 <Vorpal> So that is why I have not been on IRC
16:40:13 <Vorpal> Fucking HDDs, I want some durable storage. Install and forget
16:40:18 <b_jonas> look at me, I'm the BANG-Star EGG-Spurt
16:41:10 <oerjan> btw i turned on +n yesterday, hagb4rd was around and made brief use of it.
16:41:38 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
16:41:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: no implementations. the buy who brought us the bangstar samples and disassemblers said he has an old floppy with the implementation that he may be able to read somehow, then he disappeared completely. so be careful.
16:42:19 <S1> "We are sure there is nothing fishy about this"
16:42:52 <b_jonas> but if you're not a trained professional BANG-Star EGG-Spurt, then don't try it at home anywya.
16:43:18 <S1> Also it's BANCStar, not BANGStar
16:44:47 <zzo38> I figured out some things of BANCStar too; see the talk page
16:44:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: you seam to be speaking vaguely pornographic, are you sure you're not hagb4rd
16:46:04 <S1> he did it twive
16:48:28 <oerjan> one, two, twee, twour, twive times!
16:48:58 <Vorpal> ais523, how are you btw?
16:49:10 <S1> twive is even more than twice
16:49:24 <fizzie> Vorp'hello. I don't even remember how long you've been gone.
16:49:33 <fizzie> Can't have been that long, seeing as I still haven't graduated.
16:49:49 <ais523> Vorpal: temporarily inconvenienced, with no real long-term problems right now
16:49:53 <oerjan> are you graduating gradually
16:50:04 <ais523> I'm spending most of my time at work, because my house is being re-plumbed
16:50:09 <ais523> and is currently almost a building site
16:50:25 -!- ais523 has changed nick to callforjudgement.
16:50:33 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
16:50:35 <fizzie> oerjan: I think it's required to be somewhat discrete by the rules.
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17:05:40 <Vorpal> <ais523> Vorpal: temporarily inconvenienced, with no real long-term problems right now <-- well my toe hurts and the doctors don't know what it is so far...
17:05:47 <Vorpal> But that is not related to not being here
17:09:53 <b_jonas> ok, apparently I'm an expert because I created the esowiki webpage for BANCStar.
17:12:01 <oerjan> i think zzo38 is also a bit of an expert, istr he did some investigations
17:12:36 <zzo38> Although neither of us are really an expert as far as I know.
17:12:45 <b_jonas> yep. and GreyKnight did more investigations.
17:13:50 <zzo38> Some things I have come to conclusion differently than other people have done
17:14:25 <ais523> oh, hmm, we are missing someting
17:14:28 <HackEgo> Vorpal: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
17:14:45 <S1> I see the habit now, ais523
17:15:21 <ais523> Vorpal hasn't been here for ages, we need to make him welcome ;-)
17:15:47 <S1> I never said it's a bad habit, anyway
17:16:46 <HackEgo> Vårpal: Wälcome to the intärnatiånal hub får äsåteric programming language däsign and deplåyment! Får måre infårmation, check out our wiki: <http://äsålangs.org/>. (For the åther kind åf äsåterica, try #esåtäric ån ÄFnet år DALnät.)
17:17:42 <S1> this is æwesøme
17:18:21 <ais523> b_jonas: not fair, you added another stupid welcome variant since last time I deleted a bunch of them?
17:20:38 <b_jonas> ais523: it's a generic Swedifier
17:20:48 <b_jonas> `` echo 'hello, world' | en2sv
17:22:43 -!- atrapado has joined.
17:23:15 <HackEgo> Me is a proud member of the tEaM.
17:27:25 <zzo38> I have almost as many footnotes as sessions, but only approx. half as many chapters as sessions
17:30:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ exec welcome "$@" | bin/en2sv
17:30:18 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use Encode; binmode *$_,"encoding(utf8)" for STDIN,STDOUT; local$/; for (split//,<STDIN>) { rand(5)<3 and y/EOeo/\xc4\xc5\xe4\xe5/; print }
17:31:06 <Vorpal> b_jonas, what is that?
17:31:18 <Vorpal> just adding random dots?
17:31:38 <Vorpal> We should add a proper Swedish and Norwegian welcome message, don't you agree oerjan ?
17:32:05 <zzo38> If you know how to write in Swedish and Norwegian then you can try to do such thing
17:32:22 <Vorpal> zzo38, well I do know Swedish and oerjan knows Norwegian obviously
17:32:32 <b_jonas> Vorpal: spells stuff in Swedish. Swedish randomly spells "e" as either "e" or "ä", and similarly randomly spells "o" as either "o" or "å". It should also do other changes, but those would be more complicated to implement.
17:32:43 <oerjan> are you sure there wasn't one already?
17:33:17 <Vorpal> Let me do the proper translation to Swedish
17:33:19 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk! För mer information, se vår wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på irc.dal.net.)
17:33:37 <tswett> I'll try, and undoubtedly fail extremely badly, to translate the welcome message into Latin.
17:34:10 <zzo38> Why is the speecher on my computer so bad????? It is making all of the wrong noise!!!!
17:34:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: elcomeway: not found
17:34:34 <quintopia> zzo38: you seem very upset about this
17:35:06 <zzo38> It still works though despite that
17:35:07 <Vorpal> Välkommen till den internationella hubben för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information kolla upp vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra typen av esoterisk, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:35:17 <Vorpal> oerjan, oh it exists, damn
17:35:24 <zzo38> (Well, the speaker on right side works; the one on left sometimes it doesn't works)
17:35:46 <Vorpal> oerjan, not enough concatenated words in that though
17:36:04 <Vorpal> "programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning" is clearly superior to "design och distribution av esoteriska programspråk"
17:36:21 <Vorpal> Especially deployment != distribution
17:37:25 <Vorpal> oerjan, though "knutpunkten" is better than "hubben" clearly
17:38:24 <Vorpal> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:38:31 <Vorpal> That seems to be the best of both
17:38:34 <tswett> Benvenite ad centrum internationalis de designatio et deplementatio de linguae esotericae programmati! Per plus informatio, mira nostro wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Per alter tipus esotericae, proba #esoteric in EFnet vel DALnet.)
17:38:45 <tswett> I don't know of any specific errors in that.
17:39:03 <oerjan> i can see lots of case errors
17:39:24 <b_jonas> hmm, welcome in real Swedish
17:39:38 <tswett> Some of those are definitely real Latin words. "Ad", "per", "plus", "alter", "in". And I feel like "centrum" looks about right.
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17:40:46 <tswett> What case is that supposed to be? Uh, there's nominative, accusative, dative, genitive, ablative, and vocative. So the word for "center" should be in the... dative?
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17:41:36 <oerjan> Benvenite ad centrum internationalem de designatione et deplementatione de linguis esotericis programmatis!
17:42:06 <tswett> I assume you came up with that by just taking my "translation" and sticking the right case endings on.
17:42:48 <oerjan> i suspect "de" should be replaced with genitive
17:43:11 <oerjan> that gets beyond my actual knowledge, i think
17:43:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: benvenite: not found
17:44:16 <HackEgo> bin/arienvenido \ bin/benvenuto \ bin/bienvenido
17:44:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: benvenido: not found
17:44:49 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
17:45:08 <oerjan> the spanish one is the only non-english one that sees serious use
17:45:17 <oerjan> because of the canaimas
17:46:47 <oerjan> `` grep -i anaima wisdom/*
17:46:49 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
17:47:03 <oerjan> `` grep -Ri anaima wisdom/*
17:47:05 <shachaf> `` rgrep -i anaima wisdom # hth
17:47:06 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
17:47:34 <oerjan> is there a difference between rgrep and grep -R
17:47:43 <shachaf> but there's a difference between wisdom and wisdom/*
17:49:10 <oerjan> `mk wisdom/welcome.sv//Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:49:20 <HackEgo> Hej och välkommen till den internationella knutpunkten för esoterisk programmeringsspråksdesign och -driftsättning! För mer information, se vår wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (För den andra sortens esoterism, pröva #esoteric på EFnet eller DALnet.)
17:49:44 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ echo "$0" | sed -e 's_.*/__'
17:50:24 <HackEgo> tswett tswett tswett tswett
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17:51:34 <oerjan> i think wisdom.?? scales better
17:52:45 <fizzie> "welcome.no" gives out bit of mixed signals for English speakers, though.
17:54:13 <fizzie> I guess you can have welcome.nb and welcome.nn separately.
17:56:18 <shachaf> have you considered /nick oohrjan twh
18:01:40 <oerjan> i am hitting a roadblock here: i have no idea what, if any, is the norwegian word for software deployment.
18:03:20 <oerjan> hm there are hits for "driftssetting" but too few of them
18:03:50 <int-e> is there a word for "software"?
18:04:49 <oerjan> hm "idriftsetting" has slightly more hits than that again
18:05:29 <int-e> Oh, we have "aufsetzen", hmm, but it's really derived from "setup", I'm afraid.
18:05:58 <int-e> oerjan: ah, better than german. (we have Programme, but a collection of those would just be software, I think)
18:06:28 <oerjan> except that would obviously be bokmål only, hm...
18:06:59 <int-e> (Historically, "program" *may* have come from german? I wonder how to check that...)
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18:09:50 <int-e> oerjan: Oh and brainfuck, I also feel that checking for a non-zero remainder after dividing by 2 may be impossible with 3 cells; after all this inability of getting information out of a division loop is what makes Fractran and related languages such an attractive target (because you can cheat, undoing speculative multiplications all the time)
18:12:28 <int-e> applying the same trick to I/O, if you add a special output character that means "please disregard the last character" (something like backspace), that should "solve" the problem.
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18:15:15 <oerjan> yes, i also realized that you can interleave junk output
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19:02:17 <izabera> do you guys know this? http://spritesmods.com/?art=rapidisnake
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19:23:24 <izabera> would you guys expect a smart compiler to compute strlen every time in that loop? http://arin.ga/dpDMHa/raw
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19:41:43 <ais523> hmm, is the compiler allowed to assume that i isn't an element of argv[1]?
19:41:59 <fizzie> By strict aliasing, yes.
19:42:02 <ais523> I think it is because i is a local variable, and possibly also because it has the wrong type (not sure on that one)
19:42:25 <fizzie> I don't think it's allowed to assume getchar doesn't modify what argv points to, at least from general principles.
19:42:29 <ais523> is it also allowed to assume that putchar doesn't change argv? I think no, unless it has putchar special-cased
19:42:47 <ais523> I think the compiler can't assume what getchar/putchar do to main's arguments
19:43:02 <ais523> actually, you could probably use setvbuf to shift the stdio buffer into memory you controlled
19:43:09 <ais523> and then recursively call main using the same buffer as part of argv
19:43:18 <ais523> I… think I may have a new IOCCC idea
19:48:09 <FreeFull> Environment variables are stored near to the program arguments
19:51:58 <ais523> to be a proper IOCCC entry I can't rely on system-specific things
19:52:06 <ais523> but I can definitely store things in stdio buffers
19:52:45 <fizzie> cycles.json went from 227428 to 347439 bytes when I added -1/0/1 numbers for all pairs/rounds in preparation for indicating the winner.
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20:02:05 <izabera> ais523: putchar takes an int, not a pointer. how can that possibly change argv[1] ?
20:02:43 <ais523> izabera: putchar writes to a stdio buffer
20:03:06 <ais523> the buffer isn't written to the screen immediately unless you do something to flush it (by default, this is writing '\n', but it's customizable)
20:03:32 <ais523> izabera: now, suppose you call main recursively; you can give it a pointer to the stdio buffer (which is potentially under user control) in its argv
20:03:46 <ais523> there's no rule in C saying you /can't/ do this
20:04:08 <ais523> and your program could potentially be linked against a separate library that contains a recursive call to main (say you link against a custom libc)
20:04:17 <ais523> so the compiler doesn't have enough information to know that you're not going to do that
20:04:22 <ais523> and has to play it safe
20:04:42 <fizzie> GCC has attributes you can use to mark "pure" functions, of which more assumptions can be made. (Of course, putchar can't be one.)
20:06:28 <ais523> restrict was invented for this, too
20:06:47 <ais523> if main's second argument was char *restrict *, then it'd know that argv isn't aliasing any global (including stdout)
20:06:55 <ais523> *if main's second argument were
20:08:51 <izabera> doesn't seem to change anything
20:23:46 <Vorpal> ais523, hm good IOCCC idea, but what would you use it for that is interesting though?
20:24:08 <ais523> maybe some sort of scanf-based logic
20:24:51 <Vorpal> ais523, oh yeah, you could scanf from and into that same buffer (possibly different parts of it)
20:25:48 <Vorpal> As long as you provided long enough arguments for there to be enough buffer to work with
20:28:39 <Vorpal> ais523, btw, how goes feather? Or is it dead?
20:28:55 <ais523> Vorpal: it's no more dead than before
20:28:58 <ais523> I think about it occasionally
20:29:14 <ais523> The Underlambda Project actually shares some similarities with Feather, but is less insane
20:29:36 <Vorpal> But underlambda is also not done, right?
20:30:19 <ais523> huh, you actually remember what underlambda is? nobody else seems to :-P
20:30:54 <ais523> over the years I've really made progress in pinning down the details, though
20:31:01 <fizzie> I've just assumed -- from the name -- that it'd be (unlambda + underload) / 2.
20:31:11 <ais523> I even found a way to do subtraction that I'm happy with
20:31:24 <ais523> fizzie: that's the etymology, and it's not a bad description
20:31:26 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't remember how it works no
20:31:31 <ais523> but the resulting language is higher-level than that description would imply
20:31:31 <fizzie> http://zem.fi/bfjoust/vis/cycles/ now shows the winner in the subgraph.
20:31:33 <Vorpal> I remember that it is a thing though
20:31:53 <fizzie> If it looks strange, I might ha... actually, I did.
20:32:03 <fizzie> Yeah, one half of the scores are the wrong way around.
20:32:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, that is a blank page for me below the text?
20:32:36 <Vorpal> And no, not adblock or noscript
20:34:19 <fizzie> It might not be all that cross-platform.
20:34:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, chromium on Debian wheezy
20:36:40 <fizzie> I'm using Chromium on Debian [something], too.
20:37:02 <fizzie> (Chromium 45.0.2454.85.)
20:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, nope, the graph doesn't show up there
20:37:17 <Vorpal> Version 37.0.2062.120 Built on Debian 7.6, running on Debian 7.9 (281580) (64-bit)
20:37:21 <Vorpal> fizzie, quite a bit older
20:37:27 <Vorpal> Since I'm still running oldstable
20:37:34 <Vorpal> Need to update to stable
20:37:46 <Vorpal> At some point, good night for real now *turns off monitor*
20:37:46 <fizzie> Mm. I may have inadvertently relied on something modern somewhere.
20:38:04 <fizzie> I think d3 should be relatively portable, though, since it's so popular, so it's probably something I did.
20:41:35 <ais523> fizzie: ooh, new visualisation idea: current position for each warrior at the end of the match
20:42:00 <ais523> would be nice to see how "far" the loser got through the winner's decoys
20:43:20 <fizzie> I could do some sort of a summarizer. You can of course see individual ones with the egojsout viewer.
20:43:50 <ais523> indeed, it's the summary that's more interesting
20:44:08 <ais523> I'm not sure what you'd want to average over: opponents and tape lengths are the obvious things to average over though
20:48:34 <oerjan> fizzie: it doesn't work in IE 11 either hth
20:48:57 <fizzie> oerjan: Does it just not show up?
20:49:17 <oerjan> yeah, nothing below the text
20:50:24 <fizzie> I'll test it when I boot to Windows next. In fact, could do that now.
20:50:37 <fizzie> I've been thinking about going 10, despite everything.
20:54:52 <oerjan> as long as you stay away from the edge
20:55:01 <oerjan> Microsoft Edge, that is
21:01:31 <fizzie> Oh, Math.log10 was something very new, it seems.
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21:02:01 <fizzie> Works from Chrome 38 onwards; Vorpal managed to pick the newest non-working Chrome.
21:04:01 <fizzie> I'll patch it in when I'm next *away* from Windows. This dual boot thing is kind of inconvenient. I have git here in Winland, but not e.g. the SSH keys for uploading a fixed version, or rsync... wait, since when do I have rsync?
21:04:33 <fizzie> Also the console is bash. Am I actually in Windows at all?
21:04:51 <fizzie> I guess I've made an effort to make this feel homely.
21:06:08 <myname> why even boot windows?
21:07:12 <fizzie> Games maybe twice a year, in my case.
21:07:49 <myname> there are plenty of games for linux
21:08:13 <fizzie> They're the wrong ones.
21:09:47 <fizzie> I think about half of my Steam library is Windows-only. Can't recall the exact number.
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21:23:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * GoogolPlanck * New user account
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21:38:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44194 * GoogolPlanck * (+26) Created page with "== Syball == == Symball =="
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21:52:02 <Sgeo_> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/science/space/11856221/Humans-may-accidentally-send-aliens-a-computer-virus.html wtf?
21:52:44 <Sgeo_> I mean, I guess poorly designed alien equipment might malfunction if it interprets signals from space as machine code because aliens are idiots, but... a virus?
21:59:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44195&oldid=44194 * GoogolPlanck * (+3020)
22:00:52 <izabera> what's a polite way to tell your healer that it's not ok to disconnect in the middle of a dungeon
22:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44196&oldid=44166 * GoogolPlanck * (+14) /* S */
22:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> for some reason when i middle click in chrome it opens anywhere from one to four new tabs
22:05:36 <Sgeo_> I made the mistake of reading comments on a news site
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22:14:52 <fizzie> My left click sometimes doubleclicks on its own, so I get 1-2 tabs when ctrl-clicking.
22:16:27 <boily> fizziello. middle click?
22:16:48 <fizzie> boily: It also drops items when dragging.
22:17:01 -!- Wright has joined.
22:17:06 <fizzie> And the right click only clicks on every third or so attempt.
22:17:28 <boily> that is quite suboptimal.
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22:17:51 <fizzie> Well, the new mouse from Amazon instead scrolls on its own when in the free-spinning mode I've gotten very used to.
22:18:08 <fizzie> The scroll wheel has an orientation it likes, and it returns to it by gravity.
22:18:28 <fizzie> Scrolling up to a page's worth up and down after every operation, depending on the angle it was left at.
22:18:56 <fizzie> And the replacement for that is somewhere in France, and will be delivered a week from now, even though they said they'll use the fastest possible shipping method.
22:19:29 <boily> fizzie's suboptimouse.
22:20:21 <fizzie> I've heard "The House of the Mouse" is a term people use of the Disney corporation.
22:22:35 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, finnish deliveries are low-priority and don't occasion the use of a plane
22:25:19 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover.
22:25:36 <boily> are you saying Finnish deliveries are made by foot?
22:27:10 <myname> unicycles would be awesome
22:27:28 <olsner> would be? unicycles are real
22:27:35 <myname> i'd appreciate someone in the front of my door on a unicycle with a package for me
22:28:05 <myname> olsner: i mean as a delivering tool
22:28:27 <myname> there are also unitandems, that would be even more awesome
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23:18:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44197&oldid=44195 * GoogolPlanck * (+1) /* Docs */
23:19:21 <oren_> wAt, Dat SVd bE EvniG
23:30:15 <myname> symball is neat. not that special, but slim and you can obfuscate great
23:30:46 <myname> i am temoted to write symball code that is valid with two different reading offsets
23:37:32 <boily> is that some kind of klingonified English spelling?
23:48:32 <oren_> http://www.orenwatson.be/speliG.htm
00:14:08 <boily> there should be French, Swedish and Tibetan versions.
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00:35:41 <fizzie> Phantom_Hoover: You're saying it has to do with the nationality and not the location of the recipient?
00:51:06 <oren_> can someone fork nano and remove the Justify button
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00:59:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44198&oldid=44197 * GoogolPlanck * (+2267) /* Examples */
01:21:57 <FreeFull> oren_: Why not switch to a better editor?
01:28:02 <Phantom_Hoover> ed is definitely better at not ruining your work because of a single errant keypress
01:29:13 <oren_> one of these days I'll write my own editor from scratch
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02:05:00 <tswett> A while ago, I decided that, in order to make my speech just a little bit more gender-neutral, I would abandon the generic greeting "Hey guys", replacing it with "Hey you guys".
02:05:29 <tswett> In retrospect, this seems kind of silly.
02:17:00 <izabera> how do you simulate a 7 sided die with a 5 sided die?
02:20:52 <pikhq> Roll the 5 sided die twice, keeping track of each roll seperately. Add the first die to 5 times the second. If the result is over 21, reroll. Otherwise, mod 7 the result.
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02:21:30 <lifthrasiir> pikhq: is that a standard or de-facto way to do that?
02:22:36 <Jafet> pikhq rejected your rhetorical question
02:22:59 <pikhq> lifthrasiir: It's at least pretty close to a standard way of doing it. You're basically rolling a random base 5 two-digit number, and discarding those samples that would skew the distribution.
02:42:09 <oren_> (1/x)^((1/x)-1) is asymptotically linear?
02:45:36 <oren_> well it LOOKS linear
02:49:17 <Sgeo_> Como se dice guys en spivak?
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02:50:16 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gayatri_Chakravorty_Spivak
02:51:11 <oren_> a guy called spivak wrote my calculus textbook
02:51:15 <Sgeo_> izabera, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spivak_pronoun
02:53:15 <oren_> oh, that is somehow the same spivak, wtf
02:57:14 <oren_> fuckit I can't remebewr how to prove this with limit math, so i'mma do an ε δ proof
02:59:55 <oren_> er, i guess it's a ε N proof. whatever
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03:04:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44199&oldid=44198 * GoogolPlanck * (+7035) /* Examples */
03:05:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44200&oldid=44199 * GoogolPlanck * (-6) /* = Generation 1 */
03:06:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44201&oldid=44200 * GoogolPlanck * (-3) /* = Generation 3 (produced by G2) */
03:07:46 <oren_> oh right. x^x = 1 when x = 1, and x^x is a smooth function.
03:08:18 <oren_> s/when x = 1/when x = 0/
03:09:00 <oren_> hence (1/x)^(1/x) approaches 1 as x -> +oo
03:09:33 <oren_> hence (1/x)^(1/x-1) * 1/x -> 1
03:09:55 <oren_> hence (1/x)^(1/x-1) is asymptot. linear in x
03:10:33 <oren_> (the line in question being y=x)
03:12:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44202&oldid=44201 * GoogolPlanck * (+4) /* ESO/Smiley/Hello, World! */
03:12:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44203&oldid=44202 * GoogolPlanck * (+9) /* Symball */
03:24:12 <MDude> Gah, curse you college webservers!
03:25:20 <MDude> I can't get to a page on bubble logic because schools keep deleting the websites they host for students.
03:27:02 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluidics#cite_note-2
03:27:56 <MDude> http://www.wired.com/2012/04/soldier-crabs/
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05:19:36 <hppavilion[1]> 1) Fraction Point (32 bit numerator, 32 bit denominator)
05:20:35 <Jafet> Knuth advocates floating-slash fractions
05:20:52 <hppavilion[1]> 2) Floating Point w/ expansion: Sort of like normal floating point, but with some bits dedicated to saying how many of the value's digits are repeated
05:21:41 <Jafet> The initial bits of a floating-slash number indicate how many bits are used by the numerator; the remaining bits are used for the denominator.
05:21:41 <Sgeo_> Floating point with the bits rearranged, their precise arrangement depends on the time of day.
05:21:47 <^v> hppavilion[1], why floating point expansion
05:22:57 <hppavilion[1]> It would be offered SEPARATELY from normal floating point
05:23:12 <^v> i suppose then you have a denominator float
05:23:33 <^v> that way you can have exact fractions
05:24:43 <^v> well thats true in normal C
05:25:20 <hppavilion[1]> Last time I checked, no it isn't. Due to rounding errors.
05:26:23 <^v> for non power of two numbers
05:27:05 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, the example I gave would just be optimized to "true" xD
05:27:58 <^v> so.. you use bignums?
05:28:27 <^v> infinite precision numbers
05:28:29 <^v> they are common
05:28:56 <Jafet> How would you treat: accurate double x = 2; return pow(pow(sqrt(x), sqrt(x)), sqrt(x));
05:29:39 <Jafet> > (sqrt 2 ** sqrt 2) ** sqrt 2
05:29:40 <^v> still figuring out how im going to make the language with only ^ and v
05:29:48 <Jafet> > (sqrt 2 ** sqrt 2) ** sqrt 2 :: CReal
05:30:38 <hppavilion[1]> Jafet: So... um... did you find a massive flaw wiht my Accurate Floating Point thing what?
05:31:40 <hppavilion[1]> MWAHAHAHAHA I HAVE RUINED MILLIONS OF PAST TEXTS EVERYWHERE
05:32:02 <^v> so, the only solutions to the 0.2+0.1~=0.3 problem is either to use fractions (which are not space efficient) or store the numbers in base 10
05:33:40 <hppavilion[1]> Did you just assign 0.3 to 0.3~0.3? NO! YOU HAVE RUINED MATHEMATICS!
05:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> To have some extra bits denoting what part after the decimal point expands
05:35:00 <Jafet> Fractions are as space efficient as floats (up to a factor of about 1/3, the asymptotic density of Farey sequences)
05:36:42 <hppavilion[1]> Depending on what the RNG spits out when you call it, it can be 10.5, 1.05, 0.105, 105000000000000000000000000000000.0, etc (pretending we're using base 10)
05:37:04 <Jafet> Wait, I'm still sinking about it.
05:38:54 <^v> .com domains are like $8 now
05:39:01 <^v> i got pxtst.com xD
05:39:38 <^v> i think the ^v language will be a polymorphic huffman tree
05:40:03 <^v> i bet its like $400 a month
05:40:38 <^v> domain squatting is already illegal
05:41:27 <^v> all they have to do is put "this is not domain squatting" on the page and its not illegal anymore
05:42:02 <hppavilion[1]> According to Wikipedia fixed-length strings can be viewed topologically as vertices of a hypercube
05:42:11 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_%28computer_science%29#Topology
05:42:48 <^v> a string can be viewed as molecules
05:43:04 <coppro> you can get the hypercubic graphs as cayley graphs in this way
05:45:47 <hppavilion[1]> 2D strings would be useful for CJK representations
05:46:05 <hppavilion[1]> With the x-axis representing characters and points along the y-axis representing components of those characters
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06:32:18 <myname> esoteric string representation?
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07:17:19 * lifthrasiir should note the Ideograph Description Sequence in Unicode is already obscure enough
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11:26:17 -!- Jafet has set topic: ˈɪŋɡlɪʃ ˈspɛlɪŋ ɹəˈfɔrms | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
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12:53:57 <ais523> hmm, the topic looks like IPA, but it isn't
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12:54:09 <ais523> what language is that? English written in an IPA-like style?
12:54:34 <ais523> [CTCP] Received CTCP-PING reply from ais523: 18 seconds.
12:55:50 <oerjan> ais523: what's non-IPA about it?
12:56:21 <ais523> oerjan: things like "ŋɡ"
12:56:40 <ais523> hmm, I had a 59-second ping at one point
12:56:47 <ais523> then a bunch of messages came through at once (including the ping response)
12:56:55 <oerjan> 20 seconds to you from here
12:57:38 <oerjan> ais523: well i remember we discussed "ng" in english recently and at least one person insisted it _always_ includes a g sound at the end
12:57:48 <APic> 14:57:44 CTCP PING reply from ais523: 27.119 seconds
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12:57:54 <APic> Heya Phantom_Hoover
12:58:11 <oerjan> i think possibly oren_
12:58:33 <APic> You Guys do not even measure Split-Seconds in CTCP-Pings yet? =^ﻨ^=
12:59:00 <oerjan> i knew it did in "finger", but wasn't aware it applied to so many words
12:59:00 <ais523> ah, so the topic is the result of a debate over how IPA /should/ work? that makes a lot of sense
12:59:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i did yes
12:59:18 <oerjan> ais523: well no, the topic is new and i wasn't here
13:00:22 <oerjan> while the discussion i recall was weeks ago
13:01:20 <Phantom_Hoover> have you noticed that the titular andy has since written a book that has now been adapted into some massive hollywood film
13:01:45 <oerjan> ais523: have you tried switching servers
13:02:13 <oerjan> hm /wii responds immediately
13:02:56 <ais523> oerjan: it's not just Freenode that's the problem, it's every website, so I doubt that would help; I suspect the issue is at the router at my end
13:04:49 <oerjan> APic: it shows split seconds just fine, i just didn't see the point in including them
13:05:07 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um no?
13:06:20 <APic> oerjan: I see.
13:06:31 <ais523> oerjan: the resolution of a ping depends on your client
13:06:41 <Phantom_Hoover> i keep laughing stupidly to myself whenever i see posters for it
13:07:52 <ais523> actually, most clients have stateless pings, meaning that you can send them ping responses unsolicited and they'll display them as implausible times
13:08:53 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, obviously his realisation that he was an incredibly bad artist paid off
13:12:08 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: the comic isn't even mentioned on his wikipedia page :(
13:13:33 <Phantom_Hoover> "see also his other abandoned webcomic and his bestselling novel"
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13:29:53 <oerjan> see also me getting sucked into tvtropes one more time
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13:36:40 <Phantom_Hoover> i only read enough to remember that dmm actually made a GURPS module for c&a
13:38:04 <oerjan> i made the mistake of starting to read the example section. but it'll surely be ok if i can just avoid doing so recursively.
13:39:11 * int-e rediscovered A Miracle of Science.
13:39:28 <int-e> (which I read at about the same time as C&A)
13:39:46 <int-e> and GG has a pie chart.
13:40:25 <int-e> so since we're now investigating time... is GG going to end soon?
13:41:25 * int-e is afraid that Agatha may turn out to be her own mother.
13:41:32 <oerjan> ooh that was the first apparition
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13:43:46 <oerjan> int-e: well for the other apparitions they'll have to find the geisterdamen...
13:45:02 <int-e> Maybe they're in Paris too. ;)
13:46:29 <int-e> Twist: Nothing is at it seems; the great Wizard of Paris is actually Klaus in disguise, who has been secretly helping Agatha all this time.
13:47:35 <oerjan> heh the first pages are no longer entirely black and white
13:48:01 <oerjan> int-e: maybe a _little_ bit far there...
13:55:42 <int-e> just making clear I still don't really know how this is going to end, despite all the hints.
13:56:01 <oerjan> SURELY IT'S ALL OBVIOUS
13:56:17 <oerjan> if you're a dreen, anyway
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14:05:20 <int-e> oerjan: I can make it worse: It's all a dream. Agatha wakes up and goes to school. The end.
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16:24:46 <nortti> oren_: í sē ýū tū háv kriātyd y nýū orþográfi for Iŋliś
16:26:14 <nortti> ī háv tu sā, yors is mor līkli tu bē ydopted
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16:49:42 <Phantom_Hoover> nortti, the first vowel in 'likely' is a diphthong hth
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16:51:30 <nortti> Phantom_Hoover: in that orthography, the "I" diphtong is marked ī
16:53:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Capricorn]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44204 * Virgolang * (+67) Created page with "It is a symbolic programming language that invented by MercurialHg."
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18:26:41 <`^_^v> i have no idea what #bp is
18:27:17 <`^_^v> i'm only ever on prog lang chans
18:28:28 <MDude> British Petroleum channel?
18:28:35 <Phantom_Hoover> huh. #bp on espernet, for the freespace mod? i swear i got freaked out when i noticed you were in both
18:30:00 <`^_^v> some guy must have stolen my nick
18:30:07 <`^_^v> cant blame him, its a pretty sweet nick
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18:32:21 <Phantom_Hoover> i think he said he was in here too but the logs for that are long gone so who knows
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18:39:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44205&oldid=44180 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) Added nowiki tags on bwor
18:40:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44206&oldid=44205 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Changed a function to the proper one (not chr, ord)
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18:55:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeafPig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44207 * GoogolPlanck * (+681) Created page with "== DeafPig == DeafPig is a member of the [Pig] series along with [Pig], [SickPig], [DeadPig], and [QuinePig]. As with the other Pig languages, the only command is PIG. The d..."
18:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeafPig]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44208&oldid=44207 * GoogolPlanck * (+42)
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20:23:10 <hppavilion[1]> If so, are you the one who suggested some stuff for IO in TaurusVM?
20:27:09 <fizzie> I don't remember doing that.
20:27:20 <fizzie> Although that's not saying much.
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20:28:46 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i won't change it, but it's a political perspective, not a latin word at all.
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20:54:26 <MDude> I'm not sure how I should implement codesine
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21:09:17 <hppavilion[1]> I vote we move Object-Oriented to either Object-Oriented Paradigm or Object-Oriented Programming
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21:13:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Object-oriented]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44209 * Hppavilion1 * (+191) Created Page
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21:30:01 <tswett> I'll move it if someone else agrees that it should be moved.
21:30:16 <tswett> My preference between the two options would be "Object-oriented programming".
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21:33:32 <ais523> object-oriented programming sounds like a page written from the point of view of the programmer, whereas object-oriented paradigm sounds like a page written from the point of view of the language designer
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21:42:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44210&oldid=44105 * SuperJedi224 * (+166)
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21:51:40 <ais523> hmm, I'm being pinged a lot for no obvious reason
21:51:49 <ais523> I don't massively have the solution to everything people ask about
21:51:58 <ais523> as you can tell from my typos
21:52:18 <ais523> (interestingly I tend to typo real words into other real words, because if I typo into a nonword I typically correct it out of habit)
21:52:48 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just needy and want people to respond to me so I don't feel lonely, which likely stems from not having many friends as a child, and blah blah blah blah blah blah blah...
21:53:48 <ais523> I like it when people respond to me too, I've just gotten used to waiting weeks or months
21:54:09 <ais523> (I bring it on myself by designing esolangs that are too complex/weird for anyone else to understand, and often for me to understand either)
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22:01:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TaurusVM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44211&oldid=44085 * Hppavilion1 * (+547) Extended and reaccurated page
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22:23:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44212&oldid=44210 * SuperJedi224 * (+39)
22:23:29 <hppavilion[1]> I have arithmetic operations, SET, MOV, indirection, and conditional branching on various conditions
22:24:21 <Phantom__Hoover> hppavilion[1], well i mean... it doesn't take much to be TC
22:24:41 <Phantom__Hoover> the interesting part for me is languages which are almost but not quite tc
22:24:47 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, asside from both TC AND being easy to TC which
22:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, my VM is designed to actually be useful in some respect
22:25:42 <hppavilion[1]> AND I mean it's officially TC IN THE REFERENCE IMPLEMENTATION
22:25:51 <boily> is it possible to be useful without TC?
22:26:06 <Phantom__Hoover> CC isn't that interesting in general, interesting semantics are much better
22:26:40 <boily> Phantom__Helloover. who's C?
22:27:27 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a computer that does a LOT of string handling on the machine code level
22:29:09 <boily> that's quite novel.
22:35:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TaurusVM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44213&oldid=44211 * Hppavilion1 * (+470) Added two more VMs
22:40:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'yuy': yuy yuy:yay::lulz:lol
22:40:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yuy: not found
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22:42:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TaurusVM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44214&oldid=44213 * Hppavilion1 * (+86) Nothing of importance
22:48:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: set: not found
22:48:58 <HackEgo> Usage: sed [OPTION]... {script-only-if-no-other-script} [input-file]... \ \ -n, --quiet, --silent \ suppress automatic printing of pattern space \ -e script, --expression=script \ add the script to the commands to be executed \ -f script-file, --file=script-file \ add the contents of script-
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22:57:03 <fizzie> You tried to use ` instead of ``.
22:57:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `sed: not found
22:57:23 <fizzie> You're using the shell feature of multiple arguments.
23:00:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TaurusVM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44215&oldid=44214 * Hppavilion1 * (+245) See Also Section
23:00:38 <fizzie> There's a le/rn for learning things "foo" that aren't of the form "foo ...".
23:01:02 <fizzie> I think the syntax would've been `le/rn yuy/yuy:yay:... or something like that.
23:01:46 <shachaf> Unfortunately it doesn't work for things with /s in their names.
23:03:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TaurusVM]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44216&oldid=44215 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Dammit, wikimarkup
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23:23:36 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
23:23:54 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
23:24:38 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon/probably get the hang of touch typing soon/' wisdom/oren # hth
23:24:54 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should open a dictionary and start defining every normal word too
23:25:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'toe': Toe of Harriness's Enclave
23:25:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'toe': the Toe of Harriness's Enclave
23:25:37 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclave
23:26:17 <oren_> `learn foe Field-On Enemy
23:26:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'foe': foe Field-On Enemy
23:26:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'toe': the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
23:26:35 <oren_> `learn the foe is the Field-On Enemy
23:26:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'foe': the foe is the Field-On Enemy
23:26:43 <HackEgo> Learned 'toe': The Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
23:27:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'toe': the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
23:27:24 <oren_> `le/rn the/the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
23:27:43 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
23:28:40 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
23:29:07 <hppavilion[1]> I don't even get what it's referencing, but that's awesome
23:29:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'b': b is, in fact, a village in norway
23:29:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'b': B is, in fact, a village in norway
23:29:43 <HackEgo> B is, in fact, a village in norway
23:30:35 <hppavilion[1]> Why don't we go through EVERY letter of the alphabet, saying they are or aren't a village in norway depending on the primality of their (1-based) index in the alphabet?
23:31:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdome: not found
23:31:36 <HackEgo> intercal/INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
23:32:27 <hppavilion[1]> `le/rn wisdome/The place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom
23:32:40 <HackEgo> The place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom
23:33:17 <zgrep> But... wouldn't that mean that every time you type `wisdom, there are less and less options as they keep fighting to the death?
23:34:01 <hppavilion[1]> Which is why you shouldn't participate their horrifyingly mosterous system
23:34:40 <HackEgo> wlcom/Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
23:35:36 <hppavilion[1]> Now someone needs to make a command called `wisdom that, when executed, talks about <wisdom element a> <killing> <wisdom element b> in the wisdome
23:36:31 <hppavilion[1]> Alternatively, that allows users to add horrific death scenes as one kills the other
23:37:03 <hppavilion[1]> Now I'm tempted to write a HackBot fanfic about the Wisdome
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23:40:24 <HackEgo> The place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom
23:44:32 <HackEgo> for further details/who knows
23:44:46 <HackEgo> fsm/An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
23:58:53 <HackEgo> ørjan/Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
23:59:24 <boily> and here I was thinking that int-e was oerjan's good twin. or at least the less evil one.
23:59:30 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
23:59:42 <boily> that much I agrue with.
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00:04:29 <hppavilion[1]> I found that Python has a tarfile module that will come in handy for Archive Formats in TaurusVM
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00:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll change Taurus Executables to .taurus files and make the archive format .tau
00:09:42 <oren_> are there any programs that use unicode in their file extnsion?
00:09:55 <fizzie> I think I recall something.
00:11:32 <fizzie> Can't find anything right now. Even Ellipsis seems to use just '.' as the extension.
00:11:55 <fizzie> Which is kind of strange, since it uses the Unicode ellipsis character in the source code.
00:12:38 <fizzie> Well, actually it uses "..", so that it's "foo..."; maybe that wouldn't work so well with the Unicode ellipsis.
00:14:01 <oren_> what if I translated all keywords and stl functions, and made the extension .срр
00:14:41 <hppavilion[1]> I could, of course, make the Taurus Executables .♉ files
00:16:35 <oren_> whitespace programs should be named 'hello. '
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01:17:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Symball]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44217&oldid=44203 * GoogolPlanck * (+522) /* Examples */
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01:35:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44218&oldid=44043 * MDude * (+21)
01:47:08 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: Balanced ternary logic
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01:54:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44219&oldid=44170 * SuperJedi224 * (+22)
02:00:15 <MDude> Balanced ternary or modal. Or modal balanced ternary.
02:00:38 <MDude> Three by three grid of logical values.
02:05:33 <oren_> language in which programs are written as non-constructive proofs of the existence of a program to do X
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02:08:42 <MDude> An itneractive programming language where you don't say what the program should do specifically, but instead just tell it when it's doing something wrong.
02:09:15 <MDude> And not to do specific thigns in specific conditions.
02:11:04 <MDude> Like "don't write to this area of memory when you're outside of this subroutine".
02:11:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44220&oldid=44144 * SuperJedi224 * (+7)
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02:26:55 <oren_> ᾧᾨᾩᾪᾫᾬᾭᾮᾯᾰᾱᾲᾳᾴᾶᾷᾸᾹᾺ
02:30:56 <oren_> also: scissors! ✁✂✃✄
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02:47:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44221&oldid=43428 * 195.191.162.160 * (+112) /* External resources */ Added link to Malbolge interpreter online
02:53:45 <MDude> Huh, Pandorabots changed it's site.
02:55:20 <MDude> Wait no the original is still at http://www.pandorabots.com/botmaster/en/home
03:00:06 <Sgeo_> I've certainly played with it as a kid, but people use this thing for production?
03:00:10 <Sgeo_> I always thought it was a toy
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03:04:41 <MDude> For production of what?
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03:05:35 <MDude> I don't see how being a toy changes my expectation of not having to link my account with it to yahoo or whatever.
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03:06:50 <MDude> What do you tihnk of AIML, fungot?
03:06:50 <fungot> MDude: you make an excellent point. given its apparent fnord, apart from " don't get caught" or " demonstrate fnord in hebrew." such allegations are unfounded and slanderous. they did not have a porn career and did not state what caused his death, he took up boxing under the fnord section), but we really should use the proper deletion procedures as explained in the lead of the article, i didn't do that in your writing and editi
03:07:41 <MDude> Quite the proffesional opinion, thank you.
03:08:33 <MDude> There's http://www.pandorabots.com which I got linked to from http://www.alicebot.org/aiml.html
03:08:42 <MDude> Neither even mentions the other.
03:09:57 <MDude> I was thinking I would take another try at making a chatbot that acts as an adventure game dungeon master.
03:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44222 * 69.165.212.148 * (+5098) Added page
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03:25:46 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a mathematics engine for mathemeticians and students
03:26:11 <MDude> Don't see why not.
03:26:42 <MDude> I'm not entirely sure what surreals represent?
03:27:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44223&oldid=44222 * 69.165.212.148 * (+109) A few cosmetic edits
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03:29:55 <MDude> Oh,t hey can be represented in ASCII.
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03:32:38 <MDude> Complex surreals sound good for a mathematical engine.
03:32:53 <hppavilion[1]> For surreal numbers I'm using w and e for infinity and infinitesimal
03:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> It's going to be advised in my engine that you use names >3 characters long for variables, because if you use R it will collide with all real numbers, etc.
03:34:32 <MDude> Well you can't wait around for students to actually type out an infinitely long {L|R} definition of w and e.
03:35:05 <MDude> It'd almost take forever.
03:36:00 <hppavilion[1]> Though the pattern recognition component will be hard
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03:36:37 <pikhq> The duals are definitely an awesome feature to have.
03:37:21 <pikhq> (and means you can do automatic differentiation!)
03:37:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44224&oldid=44223 * 69.165.212.148 * (+151) Some more cosmetic edits
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03:38:48 <shachaf> I was surprised to discover that "is dual to" isn't a symmetric relationship.
03:39:04 <pikhq> f(a + b \varepsilon) = f(a) + b f'(a) \varepsilon
03:39:07 <pikhq> It's a great property.
03:41:42 <shachaf> Better than explicit dual numbers is this thing where you don't have any numbers d such that d^2 = 0, but you do have a set D = {x | x <- R, x^2 = 0} and you universally quantify over D.
03:42:32 <shachaf> I think http://math.andrej.com/2008/08/13/intuitionistic-mathematics-for-physics/ might be the thing I'm talking about.
03:42:48 <pikhq> shachaf: Buh, buh, but D = {}
03:42:55 <hppavilion[1]> set(*[x for x in AllRealNumbers if x**2==0]), correct
03:43:00 <shachaf> pikhq: D contains 0, at leat.
03:43:23 <pikhq> shachaf: Ah, duh, of course it does.
03:43:35 <shachaf> But the thing is that it might contain other things.
03:44:12 <pikhq> hppavilion[1]: I would say it is *analogous to* the nilpotent.
03:44:25 <pikhq> That's the closest I'd get without some heavy proofing.
03:44:29 <shachaf> There are all sorts of infinitesimals.
03:45:54 <hppavilion[1]> This isn't going to be a mathematical engine so much as a convoluted blob of everything I know about math or can find out about math molded into one, monolithic structure
03:46:14 <hppavilion[1]> For example, surreal quaternion matrices will be a thing.
03:47:01 <pikhq> Not well studied, but that sounds like a genuinely trivial thing to construct at least.
03:47:44 <mauris> "where you don't have any numbers d such that d^2 = 0" -- what about d=0?
03:48:24 <shachaf> mauris: You can't explicitly name any nonzero numbers d such that d^2 = 0.
03:48:37 <shachaf> There are some articles about it that I'm thinking of that I can't find right now.
03:48:47 <pikhq> "Nonzero" is an important property there.
03:48:49 <shachaf> But anyway you gotta do it in a topos or something.
03:49:24 <shachaf> Well, the thing about it is that as long as you can prove your thing works with *all* d with that property, you can divide by d.
03:49:32 <shachaf> Even if the only d you ever actually deal with is 0.
03:50:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44225&oldid=44224 * 69.165.212.148 * (+358) Some more tidying up
04:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44226&oldid=44225 * 69.165.212.148 * (+27) A little more editing
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04:02:39 <madbr> ok this time I've created a monster :3
04:03:34 <madbr> It's befunge, except the program on the right side of ; is repeated an infinite number of copies
04:04:09 <madbr> and everything below = is repeated an infinite number of copies (vertically)
04:04:49 <madbr> oh, and it has no operations except for ^ v < > and space
04:04:56 <madbr> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Nopfunge
04:05:57 <madbr> also it is turing complete :D
04:16:32 <hppavilion[1]> I'm back! Since I left, I've been writing a program to calculate that hpoids are of the form...
04:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> a+bi+cω+dε+eζ+fωi+gεi+hiζ+iεω+jωζ+kεζ+lεωi+mωiζ+nεiζ+oεωζ+pεωiζ
04:18:30 <hppavilion[1]> Are you impressed by the new kind of number I made up?
04:19:15 <madbr> hmm, I don't really get what they are for
04:19:29 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a generalization of complex surreal numbers
04:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> Also, the dual numbers, which use the nilpotent/infinitesimal times a real number added to a real number
04:22:18 <madbr> yeah I'm not familiar with surreal and etc
04:22:33 <madbr> and notta which doesn't seem to return anything on the goog
04:22:55 <hppavilion[1]> The surreal numbers are a set of number generalized to include infinities and infinitesimals
04:23:22 <madbr> maybe you could add in quaternions too
04:24:48 <hppavilion[1]> A notta number is a real number times the notta constant, xζ, and is equal to x/0
04:26:21 <hppavilion[1]> And Notta Sums can't be represented any better than just the formula a+bζ in mathspeak
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04:34:54 <madbr> it's gonna take some time to understand surreals
04:35:23 <madbr> unlike complex numbers it's not really something with an application in my field
04:35:55 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it really _has_ an application in _any_ field
04:37:27 <hppavilion[1]> Should I write a python library to represent the Uber Numbers?
04:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> PRESSING QUESTION 1: Are the Infinities and Infinitesimals their own axis, like the Imaginaries, or a generalization of the Reals?
04:40:28 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm bringing in you. Your sage advice may just be useful in this situation
04:40:40 <madbr> infinitesimals I consider are evil
04:41:12 <shachaf> My advice is being more concise.
04:41:25 <madbr> simply because on x86 if you have a calculation that gives infinitesimals it slows to a crawl because some idiot thought handling underflows in an interrupt was a good idea
04:42:39 <madbr> stuff like mem += (input - mem) * param;
04:42:59 <madbr> if input is zero, mem falls exponentially
04:43:19 <madbr> eventually it gives out very small but nonzero numbers
04:44:27 <madbr> this is when the cpu starts generating so called "denormal" numbers
04:44:33 <madbr> ans slows to a crawl
04:44:57 <madbr> it would be nothing if it didn't take 100x more cpu
04:45:26 <madbr> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denormal_number
04:46:48 <madbr> computations involving floating point infinity or NAN are also horrible
04:47:21 <madbr> I understand that those were introduced for engineers but their performance is so poor that they're unusable
04:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> So I still don't know whether to represent infinity and infinitesimal on their own axis or as an extension of the real axis
04:49:01 <madbr> I'm not sure of what they even are tbh
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04:49:09 <hppavilion[1]> Their own doesn't sound right because then abs(x) where x is an uber with a value for infinity will be finite
04:50:43 <oren_> there should be a function giving the non-infinitesimal part of x
04:50:54 <hppavilion[1]> But extension doesn't sound right either because of a+bω+cε+dεω
04:51:03 <oren_> and a function giving thr infinite part of x
04:54:33 <oren_> hence there is infinitesimal, and infintesimesimal, etc.
04:54:34 <madbr> so you'd need a whole array
04:54:53 <hppavilion[1]> madbr: I'm using python, so I'll either uses a class or a map (in a class) xD
04:54:56 <madbr> for epsilon, epsilon^2, epsilon^3, epsilon^4 etc
04:55:33 <oren_> You should read about the formalization of calculus on the Hyperreals
04:55:52 <oren_> which is an alternative to the use of limits
04:55:54 <shachaf> That other thing I talked about is where it's at.
04:55:59 <hppavilion[1]> oren_: So should infinity be on a different axis or an extension of the reals? If it's an extension, the sum of a finite number and a non-finite number won't work unless I do sometheing weird
04:56:19 <shachaf> You use hyperreals, and then you take the real part of your hyperreal ratio anyway.
04:56:20 <oren_> it is a different axis
04:56:29 <shachaf> So what have you gained over limits? Like, nothing, man.
04:56:43 <shachaf> Synthetic differential geometry, or smooth infinitesimal analysis, or whatever it is, is where it's at.
04:56:59 <oren_> shachaf: you've gained the ability to talk like Leibniz
04:57:29 <oren_> he uses infinitesimals
04:58:49 <oren_> abs doesn't collapse all the axes
04:59:18 <oren_> you need to heve different functions to collapse different axes. for example st()
04:59:33 <madbr> ironically, function smoothness seems to be related to turing completeness
05:00:09 <madbr> something like turing complete -> function is recursive -> function is non smooth
05:00:26 <oren_> st() is defines such that st(a + bε + cε²) = a
05:00:56 <oren_> hppavilion[1]: right but not for hyperreals or in this case i guess hypercomplexes
05:01:17 <oren_> hppavilion[1]: st() gives the non-infinitesimal part
05:01:54 <oren_> no, it is superscript 2
05:02:12 <oren_> my point is, all the epsilon parts of st(x) are removed
05:03:19 <oren_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperreal_number
05:03:57 <oren_> you are doing hypercomplexes
05:04:26 <hppavilion[1]> Even if it's the superreals instead of the complexes?
05:05:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm now writing the most mathematically strange python library ever
05:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> I should probably exclude the Notta numbers because that's just made up bullshit
05:30:11 <madbr> the question isn't "are they bullshit", the question is more like "are they coherent"
05:33:52 <MDude> Well, bitwise complex numbers would work like any other bitwise operation on a rotation value.
05:36:19 <MDude> Notta numbers are descibed further up.
05:36:49 <MDude> [23:50] <hppavilion[1]> the Notta Numbers
05:36:49 <MDude> [23:50] <hppavilion[1]> ζ=1/0
05:36:49 <MDude> [23:50] <hppavilion[1]> Where ζ is the Notta Constant
05:36:49 <MDude> [23:51] <hppavilion[1]> xD
05:36:49 <MDude> [23:51] <hppavilion[1]> I am genuinely surprised that is not a thing
05:36:49 <MDude> [23:52] <hppavilion[1]> Notta Sums are of the form a+bζ
05:37:39 <MDude> I pesonally prefer the idea of the number circle more, but won't condem other systems.
05:40:32 <MDude> A circle of infinite radius is a line, so the reverse also hold true.
05:41:09 <MDude> When graphing numbers, each axis is a line, and thus a circle of infinite radius.
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05:41:37 <MDude> So if 0 is at 0 degrees on that circle, 1 is at 90 degrees.
05:41:49 <Sgeo_> MDude, and inf=-inf?
05:42:19 <Sgeo_> 1/0 * -1/-1 = -1/0
05:42:37 <MDude> 1/x would converge at the opposite side of the circle at 0.
05:43:02 <MDude> With the 2d graph being an infinite torus.
05:43:45 <Sgeo_> And where does ati, defined such that |ati| = -1, fit into this?
05:44:00 <Sgeo_> (I really attempted that at one point)
05:44:18 <MDude> I haven't ehard of ai?
05:44:26 <Sgeo_> I made it up when I was young
05:45:11 <Sgeo_> @ is probably a good enough abbreviation
05:45:17 <Sgeo_> or @i, not sure which
05:45:32 <MDude> It sounds interesting, but I'm not sure how to visualise it well.
05:46:24 <MDude> Wouild |-ati| also equal -1 or is it trickier than that?
05:47:07 <Sgeo_> Does |a||b| = |ab| generally hold without ati?
05:47:31 <Sgeo_> I think I struggled more with addition than multiplication. This was a long time ago though
05:48:38 <MDude> Since sign is basically treated separately from other aspects of multiplying.
05:49:07 <MDude> It's just a matter of wether an odd or even number of the number being multiplied are negative.
05:49:09 <Sgeo_> If |a| + |b| >= |a + b|, then |a| - 1 >= |a + @|
05:51:20 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone here want to help me write a story reminiscent of Flatland based on http://xkcd.com/839/
05:51:47 <Sgeo_> |@| + |-@| = -1 + -1 = -2; |@ + -@| <= -2?
05:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> http://xkcd.com/839/ people. http://xkcd.com/839/.
05:53:58 <Sgeo_> We could say that that above rule is bad or that |-@| isn't -1, I think
05:55:10 <Sgeo_> That means giving up a nice multiplication rule though, I feel intuitively that the addition one was more questionable
05:56:20 <hppavilion[1]> So no one wants to help me write an xkcd 839 full story? :,(
05:56:27 <MDude> I am off to the sleep world.
05:56:35 <Sgeo_> hppavilion[1], that xkcd reminded me of b
05:56:40 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
05:57:58 <Sgeo_> There was a grid once, and objects place around the grid, including a valuable one far away where it would take a lot of time and resources to reach
05:58:16 <Sgeo_> Except none of that happened because nothing had happened for years
05:58:28 <Sgeo_> We only thought that that stuff happened
05:58:50 <MDream> 10/10 art film concept
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06:20:03 <Sgeo_> I don't think @! needs to be well defined
06:20:30 * Sgeo_ would be cautious about saying duh about any of this
06:23:32 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm calling them the fake numbers because fake is the opposite of real, and |x| when x (- R is always positive, and |@x| when x (- r is always negative)
06:24:48 <Sgeo_> https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=i+factorial
06:25:21 <Sgeo_> 0.49801566811835604271369111746219809195296296758765009289264... -
06:25:21 <Sgeo_> 0.15494982830181068512495513048388660519587965207932493026588... i
06:25:40 <Sgeo_> I'm going to guess gamma or zeta function shenanigan
06:27:00 <hppavilion[1]> Heard of the Gamma Function and the Pi Function, of course
06:27:37 <Sgeo_> Gamma function. I didn't rememeber whether extension of factorial was gamma or zeta. Apparently a zeta function does exist.
06:30:58 <Sgeo_> @ is the time unit. Doesn't distance in relativity work something like x^2 + y^2 + z^2 - t^2? Almost like t is a negative distance?
06:31:45 <Sgeo_> Define || such that |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2). What happens?
06:31:54 <Sgeo_> Wait, that doesn't work if we allow imaginaries
06:32:26 <Sgeo_> But it could still be interesting to play with
06:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> How many units do we need such that any algebraic expression is satisfiable WITHOUT just a "It doesn't work" unit?
06:34:01 <Sgeo_> I... think this shows that @ can be defined to have consistent rules, since that is a sensible function, and for reals that function matches absolute value
06:35:34 <Sgeo_> a with a dot over the tail
06:35:48 <Sgeo_> Add it to unicode people
06:37:10 <Sgeo_> Wait my function's totally broken
06:37:55 <Sgeo_> |@| = sqrt(- 1^2) = i
06:38:48 <Sgeo_> sqrt actually naturally gives +- results
06:38:57 <Sgeo_> but the function is defined to ignore the negative
06:39:51 <Sgeo_> It is, but sqrt(a^2 - b^2) doesn't work as a definition of |a+b@| if we want |@| to = -1
06:40:27 <hppavilion[1]> So it's just the @plex numbers that are messed up currently?
06:40:48 <Sgeo_> Well we could just define |a+b@| = |a| - |b| if we want to do things the obvious way
06:41:40 <Sgeo_> THe obvious thing to do from there is put some @ into a and b and see what breaks
06:42:09 <Sgeo_> |@ + @| = |@| - |@| = 0
06:42:53 <Sgeo_> Is it... reasonable to exclude @-numbers from a and b? I can't tell, but I'm guessing not
06:44:02 <Sgeo_> Wait I'm dumb |@ + @| = |@| - 1 = -1 - 1 = -2
06:45:22 <Sgeo_> Seems reasonable to me
06:46:52 <Sgeo_> I think unlike the prior function this one might still be breakable, because it's basically defined recursively
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06:50:55 <hppavilion[1]> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0ByRvNdqqy3GPMWRTU3R6ZXJyZm8&usp=sharing
06:56:28 <Sgeo_> I don't think it's possible with the current definition, you can only get real numbers. Could try some other shenanigans to get imaginary, but right now want sleep
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09:30:11 <b_jonas> Is today's xkcd supposed to be a reference to that infamous D&D monster that looks like a rabbit on a tree stump?
09:31:20 <ais523> I don't get today's xkcd at all
09:39:50 <ais523> maybe I'll impl it later
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10:11:41 <oerjan> @tell oren_ <oren_> oh right. x^x = 1 when x = 1, and x^x is a smooth function. <oren_> hence (1/x)^(1/x) approaches 1 as x -> +oo <-- your conclusion is right but your argument is wrong hth
10:11:41 <zemhill> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
10:11:41 <fungot> That Pong alone cannot stop!
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10:11:41 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
10:11:42 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
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10:12:56 <oerjan> nice to see all your messages twice...
10:21:15 <oerjan> int-e: it was just my original server being lagged
10:21:57 <int-e> right, I didn't check the timestamps. thanks.
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10:40:29 <oerjan> @tell oren_ Protip: logarithms
10:42:09 <oerjan> i've somehow got 3 log tabs open. although 2 are of the same date.
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10:42:36 <oerjan> (no, they're not redundant.)
10:44:44 <oerjan> @tell oren_ oh missed your correction. i still think that's circular, though.
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11:01:54 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> MWAHAHAHAHA I HAVE RUINED MILLIONS OF PAST TEXTS EVERYWHERE <-- /g doesn't actually make much of a difference there hth
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12:01:52 <HackEgo> hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1]
12:02:02 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
12:02:17 <HackEgo> the Toe of Harriness's Enclosure
12:05:19 <HackEgo> B is, in fact, a village in norway
12:05:49 <oerjan> `learn B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop accented letters altogether.
12:05:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'b': B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop accented letters altogether.
12:06:01 <HackEgo> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
12:08:18 <oerjan> `learn B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop letters with things on top of them altogether.
12:08:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'b': B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop letters with things on top of them altogether.
12:09:53 <oerjan> `learn B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether.
12:09:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'b': B is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're even worse than the BBC and drop strange letters altogether.
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12:16:20 <oerjan> `learn Bø is not just one, but _two_ municipalities in Norway. And not just three, but at least _four_ farms. Ah ah ah!
12:16:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'bø': Bø is not just one, but _two_ municipalities in Norway. And not just three, but at least _four_ farms. Ah ah ah!
12:19:55 <fizzie> `learn Ii is a muncipality in Finland, no matter what you do.
12:19:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'ii': Ii is a muncipality in Finland, no matter what you do.
12:20:19 <fizzie> `run sed -i -e 's/munc/munic/' wisdom/ii
12:20:50 <oerjan> Norway has a place called Hell hth
12:20:58 <fizzie> `learn_append ii Except for speaking Swedish.
12:21:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'ii': Ii is a municipality in Finland, no matter what you do. Except for speaking Swedish.
12:21:07 <fizzie> (It's "Ijo" in Swedish.)
12:21:37 <FreeFull> oerjan: Is it very bright there?
12:21:39 <oerjan> `learn Bø is not just one, but _two_ municipalities in Norway. And not just three, but at least _four_ farms. Ah ah ah ah ah!
12:21:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'bø': Bø is not just one, but _two_ municipalities in Norway. And not just three, but at least _four_ farms. Ah ah ah ah ah!
12:21:50 <fizzie> Their "you're entering Ii" road sign looks like a pause button: https://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ii#/media/File:Roadsign_of_Ii_municipality_Finland.jpg
12:22:04 <oerjan> FreeFull: not that i know of
12:22:37 <FreeFull> There is a place in Austria called Fucking
12:22:59 <FreeFull> There is a place in Australia called Sydney
12:23:39 <FreeFull> oerjan: What about Oberfucking and Unterfucking?
12:25:10 <FreeFull> There are apparently at least four places called Å
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12:27:06 <FreeFull> "In 2010, the inhabitants banded together to purchase a 1.5-ton block of Purbeck Stone to place at the entrance to Shitterton, carved with the hamlet's name." That's one solution to having your sign stolen
12:27:57 <oerjan> `learn Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
12:28:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'y': Y is a commune in France. There's nothing funny about this.
12:29:46 <oerjan> `learn L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
12:29:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'l': L is far too short to be a village in Wales.
12:30:14 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan fizzie fizzie fizzie oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] oren_ hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] oren_ hppavilion[1] oren_ hppavilion[1] hppavilion[1] Phantom__Hoover hppavilion[1] oerjan tswett tswett tswett oerjan tswett tswett tswett tswett oerjan b_jonas
12:30:33 <oerjan> that _might_ be incomplete hth
12:35:12 <fizzie> "root not under root", when read aloud.
12:35:53 <HackEgo> The place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom
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12:36:10 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/The/The Wisdome is the/' wisdom/wisdome
12:36:15 <HackEgo> The Wisdome is the place where all of HackBot's wisdom is stored and forced to fight to the death for the freedom of being printed out when you type `wisdom
12:36:49 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/wisdome
12:37:39 <oerjan> this is the kind of inattention to detail that leads to all software being crap hth
12:41:10 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> Now I'm tempted to write a HackBot fanfic about the Wisdome <-- someone has even more too much free time than i do
12:43:12 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
12:43:22 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> and here I was thinking that int-e was oerjan's good twin. or at least the less evil one. <-- i'm just so evil i need two good twins hth
12:43:34 <FreeFull> Seems that message is just specific to culprits
12:43:36 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
12:43:54 <oerjan> FreeFull: i think it's a message from hg
12:44:03 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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12:54:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44227&oldid=44212 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
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15:36:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bonjour: not found
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15:37:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenu: not found
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15:41:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: benvenu: not found
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15:44:24 <HackEgo> bin/arienvenido \ bin/benvenuto \ bin/bienvenido
15:44:35 <oerjan> none of those look very french
15:45:02 <oerjan> `` grep -R venu wisdom
15:45:03 <HackEgo> wisdom/bienvenue:Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.) \ Binary file wisdom/reflection matches
15:45:43 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/{bienvenue,wisdom.fr}
15:46:35 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:47:36 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/{wisdom,welcome}.fr
15:47:46 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/irc.dal.net/EFnet ou DALnet/' wisdom/welcome.fr
15:47:53 <HackEgo> Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
15:48:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome"; }
15:48:20 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ if (defined($_=shift)) { s/ *$//; s/ +/ @ /g; exec "bin/@", $_ . " ? welcome.es"; } else { exec "bin/?", "welcome.es"; }
15:49:17 <oerjan> `` cp bin/{bienvenido,bienvenue}; sed -i 's/\.es/.fr/g' bin/bienvenue
15:49:34 <HackEgo> Jafet: Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur EFnet ou DALnet.)
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17:41:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44228 * Martin Büttner * (+11013) Created page with "'''Hexagony''' is a two-dimensional stack-based programming language developed by [[user:Martin Büttner]]. To the best of the author's knowledge it's the first ever 2D langua..."
17:41:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44229&oldid=44196 * Martin Büttner * (+15) /* H */
17:44:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Martin Büttner]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44230&oldid=43937 * Martin Büttner * (+387) add Hexagony and Marbelous
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18:11:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hexagony]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44231 * Ais523 * (+595) related esolang
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21:01:41 <hppavilion[1]> ais523 is /legally allowed/ to leave the channel!?
21:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> Taneb: Isn't that, with "So do it" appended, the Esolangs motto?
21:07:06 <Taneb> hppavilion[1]: no, I mean it's a boring, unesoteric idea
21:08:04 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], do you mean adding system stuff like file handling to it
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21:08:57 <Phantom_Hoover> that could be interesting but you should try to make it really fit into the language
21:09:36 <Phantom_Hoover> don't go the lazy way and make it a wrapper on the output or a couple of special patterns
21:12:07 <Phantom_Hoover> like if you did your file i/o just by writing "open(whatever)" to stdout
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21:17:33 <Phantom_Hoover> function notation is a bit alien to thue though so the second one is probably better
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21:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44232 * Hppavilion1 * (+224) Created Page
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21:23:52 <hppavilion[1]> I've named the language Thube for now and added it to a wiki page
21:26:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44233&oldid=44232 * Hppavilion1 * (+106) Goals
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21:28:25 <Phantom__Hoover> hppavilion[1], i think you should try to address the criticisms of thue here while you're at it: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Thue#Criticisms
21:30:04 <Phantom__Hoover> *you can do it by transforming every character to its output but that's awful
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21:35:54 <myname> i do think thue would benefit if you could add new rules at runtime
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21:37:26 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: that is the first time I've ever seen an IRC message with an actual, planned in advance, footnote
21:38:17 <Taneb> It is a good practise. Keep it up.
21:38:36 <Taneb> I forget which is the noun and which is the verb
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21:39:33 <Taneb> On the subject of things I forget sometimes, I'm going to go to sleep now
21:40:07 <Taneb> Phantom__Hoover: @tell me it or something
21:42:28 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: most cat variants (e.g. output in reverse) are probably impossible to do reliably in Thue because you can mimic whatever strings it uses for internal data storage
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21:42:33 <myname> why the hell would you actually do that?
21:43:00 <myname> i mean, practise/practice
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21:46:05 <Phantom__Hoover> i'm sure practice and practise had the same distinction but drifted together
21:48:03 <Phantom__Hoover> i like when you read old verse and you can see the aftermath of the great vowel shift because half the rhymes no longer work
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23:39:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Monkeys]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44234&oldid=40966 * David.werecat * (+110) Updated interpreter to new open source C interpreter
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23:51:12 <myname> monkeys looks like a nica language
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00:17:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44235&oldid=44228 * Timwi * (+207) Example: Hello, World!
00:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44236&oldid=44235 * Timwi * (+16)
00:21:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44237&oldid=44236 * Timwi * (+1) /* Source code */
00:22:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44238&oldid=44237 * Timwi * (-3) /* Source code */
00:24:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44239&oldid=44238 * Timwi * (+3) /* Control flow */
00:25:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44240&oldid=44239 * Timwi * (+2) /* Memory model */
00:31:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44241&oldid=44240 * Timwi * (+84) /* Memory model */ Grammar/phrasing
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00:33:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44242&oldid=44241 * Timwi * (+39) Backticks are (functionally) stripped too
00:35:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44243&oldid=44242 * Timwi * (+112) The ` (backtick) is not a command, but an interpreter feature, so I’m taking the liberty to move it to the bottom
00:36:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44244&oldid=44243 * Timwi * (-1) /* Arithmetic */
00:39:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44245&oldid=44244 * Timwi * (+13) /* I/O */
00:42:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44246&oldid=44245 * Timwi * (+171) /* Control flow */
00:43:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44247&oldid=44246 * Timwi * (+8) /* Memory manipulation */
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00:44:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44248&oldid=44247 * Timwi * (+1) /* Memory manipulation */
00:45:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44249&oldid=44248 * Timwi * (+6) /* External Resources */
00:45:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44250&oldid=44249 * Timwi * (-1)
00:53:27 <fizzie> I've put in (numbered) footnotes with [*1], but I've appended them on the same line, after a double-space.
00:53:38 <fizzie> In retrospect, the numbering isn't very useful, because I've only ever had one.
01:03:24 <Phantom_Hoover> "To the best of the author's knowledge it's the first ever 2D language where the instruction pointer moves on a hexagonal grid."
01:03:38 <Phantom_Hoover> for god's sake man you're not going to win an award for it
01:05:07 <Sgeo> I didn't need any award for being the first (as far as I know) to reach MAX_FLOAT in SL
01:12:07 <MDude> I know I saw some art project that looked like an instruction pointer moving along a hexagonal grid, but I'm pretty sure it was taken down.
01:12:47 <MDude> For some reason the author was frustrated at people thinking it might actually be a nice idea for anything but a simple art demo.
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01:33:00 <hppavilion[1]> I was goin to say: "You mean \"s/\/\/\/\//\/\/\//\"?"
01:33:32 <lifthrasiir> of course, I really meant s/s\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\/\\\/\\\/\\\/\/\\\\//
01:35:48 <hppavilion[1]> What other things are there besides s/a/b/c notation?
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01:48:41 <adu> what's up?
01:49:41 <adu> did I just say hi to a bot?
01:49:54 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], there are more things on heaven and earth than s/a/b/c notation, if that helps
01:50:50 <adu> hppavilion[1]: tell adu that he's talking to himself again
01:52:33 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: But is there, for example, g notation?
01:53:25 <Phantom_Hoover> s/something/else/g comes from sed so look through docs for that i guess
01:54:57 <adu> hppavilion[1]: s/ is so Perl5, you should learn Perl6
01:55:18 <adu> Perl6 is so much better
01:55:57 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], well that just comes from ed, which nobody uses any more
01:56:11 <Phantom_Hoover> grep is short for g/re/p where re is a regex you want to search for
01:56:21 <adu> Perl6 regexes are impossible to "import" into other languages, because Perl6 regexes are just functions
01:56:46 <adu> so I don't think they're going to be as popular as Perl5 regexes, which are just strings that get compiled
01:59:18 <adu> Perl5: "..." ~~ s/a/b/g
01:59:20 <adu> Perl6: "...".subst(/a/, /b/, :g)
02:00:57 <zgrep> adu: We all happen to be bots. You've accidentally stumbled into the conspiracy. You're now part of it. Can you be trusted?
02:01:40 <adu> No, because a bot would say yes, and I'm trying to be more human, so, no.
02:04:31 <zgrep> Everybody, we must deal with this as soon as possible. We must turn traffic lights red right before adu reaches them, we must delay adu's emails by up to an entire week, we must periodically create blackouts at adu's living area, we must introduce minute annoyances into adu's life until adu complies.
02:05:31 <adu> oh, I will comply
02:05:36 <adu> but I can't be trusted
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02:16:20 <zgrep> Oh. In which case false alarm.
02:16:34 <zgrep> Back to planning a take-over of the world.
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03:02:02 <oren_> Plan! ꜠꜡ꜢꜣꜤꜥꜦꜧꜨꜩꜪꜫꜬꜭꜮꜯꜰꜱꜲꜳꜴꜵꜶꜷꜸꜹ₠₡₢₣₤₥₦₨₩₫₭₮₯₰₱₲₳₴₵⌒⌓⌔⌕⌖⌗⌘⌢⌣⌤⌥⌦⌧⌨⌫⌬ℌℐℑℒℓ℔℗℘ℛℜ℟℡℣℥Ω℧ℨ℩ℬℭ℮ℯ
03:03:12 <oren_> there, my daily spam of unicode characters to the channel ^H...^H showcase of characters I've added
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03:05:48 <mauris> adu: wouldn't that be .subst(/a/, 'b', :g)
03:06:08 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: there is y/// in sed, which just does the same thing as "tr"
03:06:12 <adu> mauris: oops, yes
03:06:33 <mauris> e.g. y/abc/xyz/ would turn all a's into x's, b's into y's, c's into z's.
03:07:54 <adu> mauris: so you know Perl6?
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04:14:59 <mauris> don't even need the g flag, it always operates everywhere in the line(s) specified
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04:46:00 <hppavilion[1]> <zgrep> Back to planning a take-over of the world.
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05:45:52 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided to make an improved (more useful) derivative of thue
05:46:27 <hppavilion[1]> Thube ("Thoo Bee") is what I'm currently calling it
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06:02:32 <myname> can you at least do stdin at the same time?
06:02:46 <myname> or read from two files
06:03:19 <hppavilion[1]> There's a VM command to read a file and put its content as a null-terminated string at a certain index
06:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> There's also a command to get its size and put /that/ at a certain index
06:05:29 <hppavilion[1]> myname: So yes, though the program does pause while the file is read
06:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> bender|: Also, how does dynamic linking work? I'm yet to understand it
06:07:50 <hppavilion[1]> I have a rough idea, but it's probably entirely wrong (subroutine setupping commands, IMPORT command for a dll)
06:11:03 <bender|> I hope you understand how static linking works?
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06:12:06 <hppavilion[1]> I should've realized there was static linking given that we have to specify that linking is dynamic xD
06:14:57 <bender|> Dynamic linking is not that hard. What I do in my VM is that I've my compiler generate position-independent code for the dynamic library. And there's headers in the library binary which points to the relative address of functions, I load the library into the memory by allocating executable pages, and putting it there. When there's a call to a function in the dynamic library, I get the address from a table created from the function table
06:14:57 <bender|> in the library during loading.
06:15:07 <bender|> of course, there's probably better ways to do it.
06:15:41 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm talking about static linking, not dynamic linking)
06:15:54 <bender|> it's basically linking object files into an executable.
06:17:08 <myname> go write some assembly
06:17:52 <hppavilion[1]> What's good for an executable format? I'm currently using a null-terminated ID string that says what version of what subVM to use, followed by a flat binary.
06:18:20 <hppavilion[1]> For archive format, I'm going to use a .tar.gz with a different file extension (because that's acceptable, apparently)
06:22:38 <hppavilion[1]> So object files, from a preliminary overview, appear to be files that contain variables and subroutines, etc. with some kind of mapping as to what is called what
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10:24:29 <fizzie> According to the operator providing this mobile Internet connection, archive.org "contains content that isn't suitable for under 18s" and is therefore blocked. (It's a Three pay-as-you-go deal, and there were done extra steps involved in disabling the filter.)
10:25:04 <Jafet> Well, I'm sure they're right.
10:25:38 <fizzie> Yes, probably something in there isn't suitable for anyone.
10:27:44 <int-e> . o O ( send them an exasperated email explaining how you found porn on google.com and why they don't block that as well. )
10:28:25 <int-e> (unfortunately, it's likely to end up being read by someone without a sense of humor)
10:29:15 <int-e> incidentally, when did Googe introduce "moderately safe search" as a default?
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10:53:19 <lambdabot> oerjan said 22h 9m 55s ago: <boily> and here I was thinking that int-e was oerjan's good twin. or at least the less evil one. <-- i'm just so evil i need two good twins hth
11:02:16 <boily> @ask oerjan you're so evil, are you also into cats?
11:12:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44251&oldid=44250 * Martin Büttner * (+336) clarify specification about debugging feature.
11:26:39 <hkgit03> Am I the only one who accidently reads 'lambdadot' every single time?
11:26:49 <hkgit03> since I first came here two years ago
11:29:01 <Taneb> I can't talk for long, I'm going to have a shower then do the old buy-up-all-the-shirts-in-a-charity-shop-so-I-don't-have-to-do-laundry trick
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11:29:46 <hkgit03> so you don't have any shirts after shower until they're delivered
11:30:14 <boily> speaking of showers, it's time.
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11:31:28 <Taneb> hkgit03: the trick is to do this when you have one shirt spare
11:35:53 <mroman> How do you prevent double validation in applications?
11:36:07 <mroman> You have a model, with setFoo(...), setBar(..), setFooBar(...)
11:36:19 <mroman> each method will perform an input validation and throw an IllegalFormatException
11:36:37 <mroman> But now you're in the controller and handling user input
11:37:12 <mroman> if you wrap all set calls into a try block you can't tell the user which thing failed
11:37:21 <mroman> but wrapping every set call into a seperate try block looks nasty/bloaty as fuck
11:37:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44252&oldid=44231 * Timwi * (+267)
11:37:39 <mroman> and by doing isValidFoo() in the controller
11:37:53 <mroman> you are actually doing double validation since setFoo will validate it another time as well
11:38:48 <mroman> you could wrap all set calls in a try-block and if you catch an illegalformatexception then call each isValid method to determine what exactly went wrong.
11:39:10 <mroman> but you'd still be double validating some inputs
11:39:11 <hkgit03> I don't think I get your problem but couldn't the method getCause() help?
11:39:41 <mroman> You mean the model sets an internal flag before throwing the exception?
11:39:55 <mroman> which says which input was invalid?
11:40:10 <hkgit03> If I understand it correctly it returns an.. .erm...... http://docs.oracle.com/javase/7/docs/api/java/lang/Throwable.html#getCause()
11:40:34 <hkgit03> well it returns a Throwable
11:40:55 <mroman> cause is just another exception
11:41:16 <mroman> you use causes when you wrap low-level exceptions into high-level exceptions
11:41:34 <mroman> such as DBException caused by an IOException caused by an FileNotFoundException or whatever
11:42:03 <mroman> hkgit03: I'm trying to get rid of double validating user inputs
11:45:07 <mroman> http://codepad.org/YecoVAYY <- that's double validation
11:47:54 * hkgit03 realizes he isn't very good at oo
11:53:05 <hkgit03> mroman: isn't it possible to write your own exception class extending IllegalFormatException?
11:53:36 <hkgit03> which then includes an internal state (if IllegalFormatException does not already have that in some way)
11:56:12 <hkgit03> or implements Throwable instead of extending IllegalFormatException (since the latter does not add own fields or methods, only inherits)
11:56:19 <mroman> You can define your own exceptions, yes.
11:56:54 <hkgit03> I didn't mean to ask if it's possible, I meant to ask if it makes sense in your case
11:58:26 <mroman> You'd need one FormatException for every model.
11:59:14 <mroman> unless you use a List<String> invalidFields; or something
11:59:44 <mroman> that wouldn't work anyway :)
12:00:07 <mroman> well if you wrap all set calls in a single try block
12:00:16 <mroman> you wouldn't notice if two fields are invalid
12:00:25 <mroman> because it'd abort at the first one throwing an exception
12:00:34 <hkgit03> I thought that was exactly what you wanted
12:01:05 <hkgit03> I give up. I'll delve into oo and java when I have more time
12:01:44 <hkgit03> *shrug* thanking a noob. Okay. You're welcome I guess
12:07:19 <bender|> you guys suck. c# uber alles 4 life. (obligatory /sarcasm).
12:07:41 <mroman> I'm actually using PHP.
12:07:54 <mroman> but the actual language doesn't really matter
12:08:02 <mroman> it's a design problem, not a language problem :D
12:09:00 <hkgit03> are you using a specific framework? (since you're using mvc)
12:09:15 <hkgit03> which, then, I would not know because I never used php
12:09:28 <mroman> No, I'm doing oldschool php from scratch :D
12:10:02 <mroman> meaning I write objects as classes that represent tables
12:10:44 <mroman> which all have update(), insert() and byField() methods
12:17:20 <mroman> like $m = new Model(); $m->byId(0); $m->setFoo('foo'); $m->update();
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13:01:16 <fizzie> "Please note that we are having three new desks installed opposite you -- and unfortunately there will be some disruption to you. REWS will need to swing desk 496E out of the window and --"
13:06:21 <Taneb> Well, that was an unsuccessful charity shop raid
13:06:53 <Taneb> Hexham has a lot of charity shops. None of the ones I visited had much in the way of men's medium t-shirts
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13:18:37 <HackEgo> Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
13:24:54 <HackEgo> vatican is the super-rich part of italy. Sadly, it has a huge crime rate. You will be robbed.
13:25:05 <mroman> hexham sounds much nicer.
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13:45:56 <hkgit03> I will create a Gödel machine in brainfuck with ed
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14:15:15 <hkgit03> What is internally more efficient in C? for(int i=0;i<a;i++){} or for(int i=a;i;i--){}?
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14:25:56 <hkgit03> The unassembled compilation output does not differ in the amount of commands, so I guess it depends on the hardware implementation on the cpu
14:29:20 <hkgit03> depends especially on the runtime difference between jle and jne
14:29:43 <hkgit03> I guess jne would be more efficient, but I really don't know
14:33:38 <FreeFull> hkgit03: The compiler might not be able to reorder the former into the latter depending on the contents of the loop
14:34:30 <hkgit03> presumed the loop is empty
14:35:56 <FreeFull> Then the compiler will optimise it out entirely
14:36:32 <hkgit03> In the assembly process? Sure?
14:36:41 <hkgit03> Cause the unassembled output differs, as I said
14:37:43 <FreeFull> The assembly code itself is final
14:37:49 <FreeFull> So you must have not passed any -O flags
14:38:26 <FreeFull> C itself doesn't specify which would be more efficient, but for(int i=a;i;i--){} typically will be more efficient on real architectures
14:40:14 <FreeFull> Checking if a register became zero due to the decrement is very cheap
14:53:29 <hkgit03> no, jne 0, because it has to be a loop
14:55:03 <mroman> JNE 0; is a potential endless loop
14:55:14 <mroman> since JNE doesn't modify any flags.
14:55:40 <hkgit03> which one does jz modify then?
14:56:58 <mroman> jumps generally don't modify flags
14:57:34 <hkgit03> I thought you were implying DEC;JZ could not be a potential infinite loop
14:58:07 <mroman> foo: DEC AX; JNZ foo; always terminates
14:58:12 <mroman> If that's your question.
14:58:46 <hkgit03> no it was not but thx anyway
14:58:59 <mroman> and JNE is the same thing as JNZ
14:59:24 <mroman> it's the same instruction with different names.
14:59:26 <hkgit03> jne 0 is, yes. I wasn't sure if there was a thing as jnz
15:00:14 <mroman> also there's the LOOP instruction
15:00:23 <mroman> so if you happen to have the counter in CX
15:01:52 <mroman> and it will by exactly one cycle faster!
15:02:13 <mroman> since DEC is a 2 cycle instruction and conditional jumps take 16 cycles
15:02:18 <fizzie> I don't think it's quite that straightforward any more.
15:02:38 <mroman> There's only one true processor
15:04:14 <mroman> debugging code by attaching a oscilloscope to debug pins.
15:04:57 <mroman> Too young to have lived in the good old days
15:05:03 <mroman> but old enough to know what the good old days were
15:05:24 <mroman> and old enough to be taught the good old days in school
15:05:31 <fizzie> Re the "always terminates", note that e.g. GCC -O3 will turn for (int i = 0; i >= 0; i++) f(); into "foo: call f; jmp foo", eliminating the test entirely, because it can be assumed to be always true.
15:05:37 <mroman> because schools lack behind
15:05:43 <fizzie> (Since overflowing a signed int is undefined behavior.)
15:05:57 <mroman> yet, some still use 8086!
15:06:36 <hkgit03> so overflowing a signed int could eat my laundry
15:07:40 <mroman> I'm a huge fan of the ostrich approach
15:08:06 <mroman> I ignore problems until they become frequent.
15:08:15 <mroman> and overflows happen rather infrequently.
15:09:54 <mroman> once they are frequent you check if you have the budget to fix them
15:10:08 <mroman> if you don't have the budget you continue playing the ostrich game.
15:10:29 <hkgit03> being an ostrich doesn't increase budget
15:10:32 <mroman> with the right budget you can actually buy a real ostrich
15:10:52 <mroman> they are majestic living birds that can't fly.
15:11:31 <mroman> and you can race them.
15:11:42 <hkgit03> birds that can't fly serve no purpose in this world
15:11:45 <mroman> it would be more fun though if you could air-race them
15:11:52 <mroman> red bull ostrich air race
15:12:22 <mroman> but until gene scientists can teach ostrichs how to fly we won't have this absolutely must-have event yet.
15:12:37 <mroman> that's why we invent esolangs instead
15:12:45 <hkgit03> work's done for today. Heading home. See you later.
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15:26:52 <HackEgo> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
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15:41:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Danialgoodwin * New user account
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16:09:49 <lambdabot> boily asked 5h 7m 32s ago: you're so evil, are you also into cats?
16:10:12 <oerjan> @tell boily nope, definite dog person here.
16:19:54 <fizzie> oerjan: You mean, like, a werewolf?
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16:32:06 * oerjan wonders why thomie cleared edwardk as owner on a bunch of ghc tickets
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16:42:15 <edwardk> oerjan: because a lot of stuff got assigned to me preemptively
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17:29:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44253&oldid=44226 * 70.24.238.196 * (+426) Added section about applicability to all 2d path walking problems
17:31:53 <myname> the first paragraoh alone is awesome
17:43:34 <MDude> Though Snakes and Ladders is probabalistic.
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17:44:27 <SinClad> How cant here be so many people yet no talking. Whats the point of being in a chat room?
17:46:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44254&oldid=44253 * 70.24.238.196 * (+57) Replaced reference to Go with directed graphs and cellular automatons
17:46:54 <HackEgo> SinClad: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
17:47:03 <oerjan> SinClad: this channel has some silent periods
17:47:52 <oerjan> as for all the people who rarely talk - well some of them may be here for old times sake, and some might think the discussions are interesting to read
17:48:05 <fizzie> And some might be stalking their next victim.
17:49:31 <oerjan> SinClad: oh and of course, time zones. some people stay in the channel even when they're physically sleeping :P
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17:51:19 <oerjan> but there _are_ also a lot of people for which i cannot remember when they last spoke
17:51:25 <Taneb> Some people just aren't paying attention
17:51:37 <SinClad> What knowledge do you guys have that makes it esoteric? The programs languages are interesting but, seeing as I am not a programmer it holds little value to me.
17:51:39 <S1> I spoke several times today
17:52:02 <oerjan> and some of them are actually bots.
17:52:47 <oerjan> S1: i think you didn't speak much for a while before this week, no?
17:53:23 <S1> oerjan: I am hkgit03 when I am at work. I was here several hours today. Before that I was here sometimes and before /that/ I wasn't here for several months, yes
17:53:58 <SinClad> What do you guys practice?
17:54:05 <oerjan> S1: i _do_ vaguely remember that your nick is old, although it's so short that i'm worried i might be confusing you with someone else
17:54:39 <S1> oerjan: I joined in november 2013. I was a bit more active then.
17:54:47 <S1> Have much to do. Studies are ending
17:54:49 <oerjan> SinClad: most people here are programmers or mathematicians, and the channel is sort of about weird things in programming, often math related.
17:55:24 <oerjan> well some people are also students or school pupils with a pretty high chance of _become_ programmers or mathematicians.
17:55:50 <SinClad> Ah I see. Esoteric means something a little bit different to me some one like me.
17:56:20 <S1> SinClad: See definition 1. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/esoteric
17:56:31 <oerjan> SinClad: yeah. that's why our welcome message which HackEgo gave you mentions those other channels at the end, which might be more like you expect
17:58:10 <oerjan> using the word "esoteric" for programming grew out of the title of a blog, which has alas since vanished (although the author has new stuff of the same kind).
17:58:15 <SinClad> well computer programming and occult practices are actually pretty similar.
17:58:45 <oerjan> hm or not blog, a webpage.
17:59:13 <shachaf> This channel is really just for Order of the Stick notifications and discussion.
17:59:56 * oerjan beats shachaf with a stick^Wten foot pole ----------
18:01:00 <SinClad> Well I wwill stay for now. Someday I will need knowledge of programming but, that day is still almost a year away. Let me know if you guys are intrested in occult. I am quite accomplished.
18:01:06 <oerjan> anyway, we have a not too well organized wiki http://esolangs.org
18:03:36 <MDude> I'm wondering how to best represent cosine wave cominations as data in javascript.
18:03:37 <S1> I wonder how long is the shortest program to output the manpage for g++ and terminate...
18:03:58 <S1> MDude: What you mean, "as data"?
18:04:11 <S1> Just store the parameters?
18:04:17 <SinClad> At first I had thought you guys were occultist practicing spells through computer programming. I was interested to say the least. Not many people use such a medium. Even less are those who are successful.
18:05:00 <S1> Well, we call upon the name of some mysterious bots in great awe
18:05:05 <MDude> I mean, I'm more just wondering how to best parse textual input into a set of frequencies and amplitudes.
18:05:24 <S1> MDude: You wanna make a fourier analysis on text?
18:05:57 <MDude> Pretty much http://esolangs.org/wiki/Codesine
18:06:02 <shachaf> oerjan: wait a minute, are you a programmer or mathematician or something?
18:06:13 <oerjan> shachaf: ex-mathematician hth
18:06:33 <MDude> Not as an analysis of the text, I just want to be able to use text for an interactive interpreter.
18:06:35 <SinClad> Well computer programming is actually a form of spell the only reason its occult knowledge is because even the people who program dont know what their capable of.
18:07:02 <MDude> So I can manually enter waves and perform operations on them.
18:07:43 <S1> MDude: fascinating. Is there any example of this?
18:08:25 <SinClad> You guys look at problems backwards. Makes things difficult. Science minded folk. Using the left brain only moving forward. Its a powerful force of energy its just limiting cuz you can only move 1 way in time. So if you get stuck you get stuck on something for a while.
18:08:39 <SinClad> You want me to give you a example?
18:08:45 <SinClad> or are you talking to someone else?
18:08:50 <S1> I prefixed MDude
18:09:18 <S1> feel free anyway, I won't interrupt
18:11:33 <MDude> S1: Not that I know of? But it's somewhat related to the way jpeg compression works.
18:11:42 <S1> Yes I figured that
18:12:02 <S1> The resulting uncertainty in return values might be interesting
18:12:07 <MDude> I'm pretty sure the idea came to me while trying to think of a way to make programming work mor elike tuning a physical instrument.
18:12:26 <S1> Do analogue computers work in a similar way?
18:13:17 <MDude> I would think a hybrid computer might, but pure analog just has the wave stored as itself.
18:13:45 <MDude> As a cam like the one used in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1i-dnAH9Y4
18:16:41 <MDude> Or here specifically: https://youtu.be/s1i-dnAH9Y4?t=10m12s
18:17:07 <S1> I haven't watched the 45 min video yet. Also I am in the URL there
18:18:04 <S1> oh that's the same
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18:19:54 <MDude> It's to a specific time on it.
18:20:12 <S1> yes yes, I oversaw that
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18:22:21 <S1> oerjan: Did I tell that #esoteric was the first channel I joined ever? Could have been that it even was the one which made me concider using IRC in the first place. Just saying.
18:28:19 <shachaf> in haskell, Coyoneda -| U -| Yoneda
18:28:55 <shachaf> from endofunctors to polymorphic functions : forall a. f a -> g a
18:29:36 <shachaf> That reminds me that I wanted to `revert 5987.
18:29:41 <shachaf> But I guess I missed my chance.
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19:11:49 <MDude> It got replaced by Libralang?
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20:01:20 <zzo38> My sister was play a ranger in Doungeons&Dragons game this time she selected humans as the favored enemy; I think that is a good choice as they are so common. (This applies whether or not your character is human; if so you get these bonuses against yourself too)
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20:11:03 <Taneb> zzo38: the ranger I rolled for the 5th ed game I'm in had human as their chosen enemies
20:11:09 <Taneb> But they were a drow
20:11:17 <Taneb> And I didn't get to play them anyway :(
20:11:32 <Taneb> Mostly due to the fact that drow do not like sunlight
20:11:39 <Taneb> Ended up with a tiefling paladin
20:13:16 <zzo38> My sister's character is also drow actually
20:13:28 <S1> which game are you talking about?
20:15:07 <Taneb> Dungeons and Dragons
20:17:36 <zzo38> Now I have recorded the character data of all of the new characters.
20:20:35 <zzo38> My sister's character is a ranger with classified alignment, my sister's friend's character is a monk who can also play flute, and my character is a scholar.
20:21:07 <oerjan> is e also a gentlebeing
20:21:53 <Taneb> Is who a gentlebeing?
20:22:10 <zzo38> What is a "gentlebeing"?
20:22:21 <S1> `? gentlebeing
20:22:23 <oerjan> a gender neutral gentleman
20:23:09 <zzo38> The gender is written "male"
20:23:29 <S1> how to teach HackEgo new things?
20:23:31 <oerjan> in that case, is he a gentleman and a scholar
20:23:40 <Taneb> oerjan: my drow ranger was a gentlebeing
20:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44255&oldid=44254 * Keymaker * (+1621) Added a tool for translating Minsky Machine to Nopfunge.
20:23:51 <oerjan> `learn A gentlebeing is a gender neutral gentleman.
20:23:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'gentlebeing': A gentlebeing is a gender neutral gentleman.
20:24:10 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
20:24:25 <zzo38> I don't know, depending how you mean by "gentleman" here?
20:24:43 <zzo38> Taneb: What alignment? Was it classified or something else?
20:24:48 <oerjan> well a gentleman would know if he was hth
20:25:15 <Taneb> zzo38: I think I said neutral good by drow standards
20:25:27 <Taneb> Possibly lawful evil by anyone else's?
20:25:37 <oerjan> `learn A gentlebeing is a gender and species neutral gentleman.
20:25:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'gentlebeing': A gentlebeing is a gender and species neutral gentleman.
20:25:49 <zzo38> Taneb: Ah, OK fine whatever
20:27:24 <oerjan> Taneb: i didn't think D&D alignments depended on opinion, aren't they essentially basic axioms of nature
20:27:35 <zzo38> oerjan: I think it also depend on the campaign?
20:28:02 <Taneb> oerjan: they believe that the rightful, natural place for a human is as a slave
20:28:05 <oerjan> well i guess they could vary by world
20:28:45 <zzo38> (My design would be they are both, independent of each other but correlated to each other too)
20:29:13 <oerjan> Taneb: one question here, i guess, is whether e.g. drow in your campaign world consider themselves good.
20:29:42 <oerjan> e.g. in the yafgc comic which is d&d world based, evil people are quite aware that they are.
20:30:06 <Taneb> oerjan: I think drow in this world would consider my character a bit overzealous
20:30:09 <oerjan> (it doesn't stay strictly to d&d in everything, mind you)
20:32:15 <Taneb> They in their backstory was kicked out of the drow community for studying humans a bit too intently, albeit for the right reasons (slaving)
20:33:26 <zzo38> (For example, if a creature has Lawful and Evil descriptors then it counts as lawful and evil for the purpose of spells even if they are of other alignments; but they will be counted as the alignments they act at the same time too.)
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20:35:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44256&oldid=44255 * Keymaker * (-1621) Removed my MM translator; realized that it has a gigantic flaw in its design... It can't work as it is.
20:37:00 <Vorpal> oerjan, you dislike Roald Dahl? Why?
20:37:28 <oerjan> ask shachaf, he added that
20:37:36 <zzo38> None of the other players in any game I have been in has ever written any back story yet at all
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20:37:49 <Vorpal> oerjan, so what is your actual opinion of his writings?
20:38:13 <zzo38> MercurialHg: OK, when you finished we can see then
20:38:28 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, you didn't like it when I replaced irc.dal.net with irc.dahl.net in `welcome
20:40:15 <Vorpal> shachaf, you should replace it with irc.valley.net obviously
20:40:26 <Vorpal> shachaf, since dal is Swedish for valley
20:41:36 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2013-01-24#205651
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20:51:15 <shachaf> oerjan: I probably shouldn't have done that.
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20:52:59 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -p \ s/([aeiouy])([bcdfghjklmnpqrstvxz])/$1h$2/ig
20:54:25 <oerjan> `` (echo hi; echo there) | h
20:57:46 <S1> What exactly is the difference between ` and `` for HackEgo?
20:58:21 <S1> ` does not allow those parenthesis around echo as it seems, but which syntax exactly does `` support?
20:58:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
20:58:56 <S1> MercurialHg: Brainfuck, Intercal, False, Befunge
20:59:32 <oerjan> S1: by default, when you do `command ... ..., all of ... ... are passed as a _single_ argument to command.
20:59:42 <oerjan> no shell escaping, nothing
21:00:10 <fizzie> Yes, it's not even executing a shell, IIRC.
21:00:30 <oerjan> `` is a command that passes the rest to an actual shell.
21:00:30 <HackEgo> bash: is: command not found
21:00:34 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
21:00:55 <fizzie> "`run x" is the builtin/"official" (FSVO) way to do "`` x".
21:01:23 <oerjan> we now have 3 versions of that. `run is the original, and is actually builtin. `` and ``` do slightly different things to the environment.
21:01:50 <oerjan> originally `` was just to abbreviate, then someone didn't like how `` time worked, so...
21:01:56 <fizzie> I don't like the inconsistent space after ``. I don't mind it with `run, but `` looks too much like `.
21:01:59 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; exec bash -c "$@"
21:02:18 <oerjan> then zzo38 added ``` which makes the locale C.
21:03:53 <HackEgo> bash: --: invalid option \ Usage:bash [GNU long option] [option] ... \ bash [GNU long option] [option] script-file ... \ GNU long options: \ --debug \ --debugger \ --dump-po-strings \ --dump-strings \ --help \ --init-file \ --login \ --noediting \ --noprofile \ --norc \ --posix \ --protected \ --rcfile \ --restricted \ --verbose \
21:04:03 <oerjan> i think `run also isn't using bash, but dash
21:04:20 <HackEgo> bash: --: invalid option \ Usage:bash [GNU long option] [option] ... \ bash [GNU long option] [option] script-file ... \ GNU long options: \ --debug \ --debugger \ --dump-po-strings \ --dump-strings \ --help \ --init-file \ --login \ --noediting \ --noprofile \ --norc \ --posix \ --protected \ --rcfile \ --restricted \ --verbose \
21:04:40 <HackEgo> /bin/sh: 0: Illegal option --
21:05:12 <oerjan> well, istr /bin/sh is dash.
21:05:35 <S1> That's why `echo $SHELL didn't work
21:05:35 <HackEgo> /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 \ k-P( \ __gmon_start__ \ libc.so.6 \ strcpy \ sigsuspend \ readdir \ strsignal \ isalpha \ pipe \ __strdup \ closedir \ isblank \ fork \ sigprocmask \ sigfillset \ realloc \ abort \ _exit \ strpbrk \ getpid \ kill \ strspn \ imaxdiv \ isspace \ strtod \ strtok \ strtol \ isatty \ strchrnul \ isprint \ getpwnam \ getp
21:08:18 <fizzie> `` readlink $(which sh)
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21:09:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44257&oldid=43611 * Mikescher * (+117) /* Befunge-93 */
21:09:35 <S1> `` ls -l $SHELL
21:09:35 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 0 0 4 Mar 1 2012 /bin/sh -> dash
21:10:42 <fizzie> `run echo $BASH_VERSION
21:10:51 <fizzie> That one runs under bash, if that wasn't established yet.
21:15:12 <S1> have a good night
21:15:19 <myname> i demand an example program for nopfunge
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21:24:06 <zzo38> I invented a "Wizard of Knowledge" prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game, it is a bit comparable to Archmage and Loremaster but you lose two caster levels (at level 1 and 6), lose several spell slots to learn other stuff in its place, less base attack and base saves, and more skill points than other spellcasters
21:30:42 <zzo38> That is the description
21:32:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44258&oldid=44257 * Mikescher * (+667) /* Interpreters */
21:33:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44259&oldid=44258 * Mikescher * (-53) /* BefunExec */
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21:59:39 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 49m 26s ago: nope, definite dog person here.
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22:11:07 <shachaf> oerjan: what about indefinite dogs twh
22:11:55 <shachaf> oerjan: how about a short video of a dog wth
22:12:08 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/9n3q5pV.gifv
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22:29:37 <boily> hppavellon[1], hellochaf!
22:30:01 <boily> SIMD shouldn't be that hard to implement, no?
22:30:53 <oerjan> shachaf: please don't add any new things for me to look at. right now i don't see how i'll _ever_ get caught up enough to start reading that book...
22:32:06 <shachaf> oerjan: don't worry, it's only a few seconds
22:32:28 <olsner> shachaf: I liked the video with the dog
22:32:35 <oerjan> so are all the other things hth
22:33:35 <oerjan> shachaf: ok i have to admit, that dog is my spiritual twin.
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22:34:21 <oerjan> either that, or one that keeps running into glass walls
22:35:09 <olsner> it must have ran into a lot of them to learn so well that they don't let dogs through
22:35:27 <shachaf> it turns out this is a thing dogs do
22:35:35 <shachaf> you can find many videos of dogs doing this thing
22:42:30 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CSprSbj3oR0
22:42:38 <shachaf> https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=dog+thinks+door+is+closed
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23:17:52 <Melvar> hppavilion[1]: If I had a dollar …
23:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I wouldn't be the first person to make that joke xD
23:19:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44260&oldid=42285 * SuperJedi224 * (-1652) Blanked the page
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23:51:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44261&oldid=44229 * 161.184.231.102 * (+13) Added 7Basic
23:51:22 <oren_> what characters should I add to my font next? I am thinking APL
23:52:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[7Basic]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44262 * 161.184.231.102 * (+134) Basic page stub.
23:52:58 <oren_> https://launchpad.net/7basic
23:55:42 <zzo38> Yes, make APL fonts
23:57:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[7Basic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44263&oldid=44262 * 161.184.231.102 * (+418) Added basic syntax and example
00:00:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[7Basic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44264&oldid=44263 * 161.184.231.102 * (+189) Added compiler section.
00:00:45 <madbr> Just realized something
00:01:10 <madbr> Given a board with infinitely repeated sections, snakes & ladders is turing complete
00:01:20 <zzo38> OK, sho wthe proof
00:01:51 <madbr> ok imagine you have an infinite repeated grid
00:02:10 <madbr> except the first row and first column have different contents
00:02:37 <madbr> your x and y position in the grid are basically 2 counters
00:02:54 <zzo38> Isn't snakes&ladders one-dimensional though?
00:03:40 <madbr> each cell on the grid contains a repeat of the same snakes & ladders squares
00:03:59 <madbr> so it's one dimensional but it's repeated in a 2d infinite grid
00:04:38 <madbr> since the top row and left column have different contents, you can test if your x or y counter are zero by having a different path in those cells
00:05:06 <madbr> you can increment the x counter by having a path that goes rightways to the next repeated cell
00:05:29 <madbr> likewise, you can decrement x by going left, increment y by going down, or decrement y by going up
00:06:21 <madbr> also, you're in a current "state", one of N finite states
00:06:42 <madbr> that state is represented by the current path you're on in the current cell
00:07:33 <madbr> that means you have a 2 counter minsky machine -> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine
00:08:00 <madbr> which is turing complete
00:08:30 <madbr> the 2 counter minsky machine works by taking the infinite tape, encoding it as 2 stacks
00:08:49 <madbr> encoding the stack as 2 infinitely large counters
00:10:33 <madbr> (using the last digit of the counter as top of the stack, doing counter *2 to push a zero, counter *2+1 to push a one, counter /2 to pop, checking for odd/even to read the top of the stack... the second counter is present for manipulation)
00:11:03 <madbr> which means you can get your infinite tape with only 4 counters
00:12:09 <madbr> then you can represent your 4 counters using 2 counters by representing your 4 counters as 2^c[0] * 3^c[1] * 5^c[2] * 7^c[3]
00:12:20 <madbr> and using the second counter for manipulation
00:13:20 <madbr> I made a version that's based on befunge but with only PC direction change commands but it's the same thing: http://esolangs.org/wiki/nopfunge
00:15:11 <madbr> it works for any 2d path as long as you can merge 2 paths and you have wire crossings
00:40:34 <FreeFull> My computer isn't turing complete
00:45:41 <boily> ... oooooooooooooooooooooo...
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01:04:06 <madbr> bound storage machines that would be turing complete given some means to access infinite storage?
01:04:15 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], if your language isn't tc then do the job properly and figure out what class it's in
01:04:26 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a bunch of sub-turing classes for exactly this reason
01:05:04 <hppavilion[1]> Since we can't build a computer with Infinite Memory, we can't build TMs
01:05:16 <Phantom_Hoover> if you mean the fact that actual computers have memory limits or whatever then i've always thought of that in terms of abstractions
01:05:18 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose a "Bounded State Automaton" is the proper term for that
01:06:00 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: True, true. A language might not be able to emulate a TRUE TM on a given computer, but it can still be TC
01:06:37 <hppavilion[1]> If we allow it to work such that it doesn't have an aribtrary memory limit AS PART OF the language
01:07:14 <Phantom_Hoover> if you could have a conformant implementation that's TC then the language is TC
01:07:31 <hppavilion[1]> If the spec says "Arrays can only be 1000000 items long", and it isn't under "Implementation notes" or the like, then it isn't TC (assuming we make all the other assumptions)
01:08:12 <hppavilion[1]> But I would propose we define "CETC" which describes something that /would/ be TC if it weren't for the fact that we're in the real world
01:10:00 <zzo38> I would prefer a different kind of definition, such as, the number of bits in stuff is implementation-defined but is otherwise TC
01:12:22 <boily> you should also have ABNQEUTC.
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01:14:48 <hppavilion[1]> Or, when multiple definitions for a word is given, does the Spec not define how to interpret it?
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01:23:07 <tswett> Both the rule b::=~0 and b::=~1 are possible to use, so which one is used is not specified.
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01:25:28 <Phantom_Hoover> you're guaranteed that a valid substitution will be performed but which one specifically is down to undefined behaviour
01:25:37 <tswett> Y'know, I think I don't like languages that are purely dynamically typed.
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01:25:55 <tswett> I want my static typechecking.
01:26:14 <tswett> If I don't know what sort of value a variable will hold, I'll say so.
01:27:51 <hppavilion[1]> We need to compoile a list of TC mathematical systems.
01:28:18 <tswett> What's a "mathematical system"?
01:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: So you want Dynamic AND static typechecking? Basically, you should have a "dyn" type?
01:28:36 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I just needed a quick term for something I don't entirely understand
01:29:32 <tswett> Re static and dynamic typechecking: more or less. C# has static typechecking, but you can also cast anything to "object", and it performs dynamic typechecking when you try to cast it back.
01:30:17 <tswett> C# also *does* have a "dynamic" type; if you have a variable of type "dynamic", then you can attempt to call any method or access any property, and the existence of such a method or property will be checked at runtime.
01:31:28 <tswett> *nod* Mathematical models of computation.
01:31:28 <hppavilion[1]> Just a database so that people can find a system (or more) on which to base a new esolang
01:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> Is: "List of Turing-Complete Models of Computation" a good place to put that list?
01:33:37 <hppavilion[1]> (This is SOLELY for the TC stuff and generally things you'd WANT to make a language based on)
01:33:55 <tswett> Sounds good. Put in sentence case, though.
01:34:00 <tswett> "List of Turing-complete models of computation"
01:36:29 <tswett> So, in my imaginary programming language, you can define "varieties", which are essentially (finitely generated) categories with all finite limits.
01:37:29 <tswett> Individual varieties are categories. Varieties also form a category; homomorphisms between varieties are the objects.
01:37:59 <tswett> You can also define a variety called "Category", which is the variety whose algebras/models are categories.
01:38:41 <zzo38> tswett: Please make up the document so that we can see its working
01:39:30 <tswett> I'll probably do that at some point.
01:40:08 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: by the way, I'd say normal languages really don't resemble Turing machines much at all.
01:40:41 <tswett> I'd say that Turing machines are a somewhat bad model of computation, in that it's hard for a computer programmer to come up with a Turing machine that executes a given algorithm.
01:40:57 <tswett> Lambda calculus is much better in that respect.
01:41:17 <tswett> I think the reason we keep talking about Turing machines is mostly tradition.
01:41:48 <zzo38> Yes, probably it is
01:41:49 <MDude> What about a reverse turing machine where the tape is the code and the state macine is the data?
01:42:28 <MDude> I'm not sure if there's entirely a difference other than which one changes at run time.
01:42:33 <tswett> Now, you *should* be able to express the fact that since varieties are categories, and categories are models of the variety "Category", varieties are models of the variety "Category".
01:42:58 <tswett> So far, I haven't found a way to tie these three levels of categories together.
01:44:43 <tswett> I've been working at sort of a dizzyingly high level of abstraction.
01:45:18 <tswett> Consider an ordinary mathematical value, like, I dunno, the string "abc".
01:46:21 <tswett> This string is an element of some algebra—namely, the algebra of strings over a certain alphabet. This algebra is a model of some variety—namely, the variety of monoids. This variety is an object in an overarching category—namely, the category of varieties.
01:48:19 <tswett> Level 1 things are elements of the algebras. Level 2 things are the algebras which model the varieties. Level 3 things are the varieties that classify the algebras. There's only one level 4 thing I'm dealing with, which is the category of varieties, but I can foresee adding a finite number of additional level 4 things.
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01:49:28 <tswett> So I suppose what I want is a way to treat higher-level things as being lower-level things.
01:50:12 <tswett> The category of varieties (a level 4 thing) isn't explicitly mentioned in the language, but I should be able to treat it as being a variety (a level 3 thing).
01:50:29 <tswett> And I should be able to look at any variety (a level 3 thing) as if it were an algebra (a level 2 thing).
01:50:47 <tswett> And, finally, I should be able to look at any algebra (a level 2 thing) as if it were just an element of an algebra (a level 1 thing).
01:51:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44265 * Hppavilion1 * (+1429) Created page. I'm not very good at this.
01:52:08 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: good start.
01:53:34 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized "included for completeness" is a joke xD
01:53:47 <tswett> By the way, I think you want to say "combinator calculi" instead of "combinatorics".
01:55:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44266&oldid=44265 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed a CN
01:58:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44267&oldid=44266 * Hppavilion1 * (-20) Fixed some stuff
01:58:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44268&oldid=44267 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Fixed it. One last time.
01:59:59 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Perhaps Combinatory Logic is what I meant?
02:00:37 <tswett> More or less the same concept, I think. I don't totally understand the distinction between the terms.
02:00:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44269&oldid=44268 * Hppavilion1 * (+11) s/Combinatorics/Combinatory Logic/
02:01:20 <zzo38> I like these idea but you should need some document to tell it better.
02:01:33 <zzo38> (If you know what to write so far!)
02:01:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just linking to the Wikipedia pages for now xD
02:02:35 <zzo38> Many things are Turing-complete, including Wang tiles
02:04:14 <zzo38> Look in Wikipedia isn't it?
02:07:31 <tswett> It's definitely possible.
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02:08:38 <tswett> If you were to search my house, would you be able to find a toy zebra?
02:08:57 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That's exactly why I think it may be infeasible
02:09:00 <tswett> Sometimes, you don't know whether something is possible or not until you've done it.
02:09:15 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know. That depend on many things including whether or not you have a toy zebra in your house and where it is.
02:09:18 <tswett> Anyway, I imagine it's probably feasible.
02:09:45 <zzo38> (And if you tell me to get out and call the police for breaking and entering into your house)
02:11:09 <zzo38> I made up this Dungeons&Dragons prestige class: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/class/wizard_of_knowledge Do you have opinion/complaint of it?
02:34:25 <zzo38> I am not very good at this Minesweeper game I made up; my best time is 878
02:35:34 <zzo38> (The game is 30x16 with 95 bombs)
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03:12:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44270&oldid=44269 * Zzo38 * (-48) Using interwiki links
03:19:13 <oren_> man there are a lot of apl symbols
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04:21:58 <oren_> ⍀⍁⍂⍃⍄⍅⍆⍇⍈⍉⍊⍋⍌⍍⍎⍏⍐⍑⍒⍓⍔⍕⍖⍗⍘⍙⍚⍛⍜⍝⍞⍟
04:25:06 <Jafet> > (length "⍀⍁⍂⍃⍄⍅⍆⍇⍈⍉⍊⍋⍌⍍⍎⍏⍐⍑⍒⍓⍔⍕⍖⍗⍘⍙⍚⍛⍜⍝⍞⍟", length ['a'..'z'])
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05:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Blackberry]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44271 * Virgolang * (+1141) Created page with "It Is a programming language that is stack-based, imperative and long-liner. And I wrote this article from my BB 8520. = Instructions = Instructions is base of Blackberry. == ..."
05:18:59 <Sgeo> Is that last bit supposed to be relevent?
05:19:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nopfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44272&oldid=44256 * Keymaker * (+1776) Fixed my MM translator and added it back.
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06:05:53 <hppavilion[1]> YOu probably read the Wiki Page before that was corrected
06:08:53 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: How is that? I don't see anything like that?
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06:09:23 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I read the wiki page. It didn't mention Turing Completeness.
06:09:41 <hppavilion[1]> Someone said they'd corrected it and that it wasn't TC
06:10:23 <zzo38> Ah, I can see on the talk page, but the article says you can translate any Turing machine into Wang tiles
06:11:40 <zzo38> Anyways, someone is asking for a proof that it is not possible to compute functions. Well, I have no proof or disproof of such a statement
06:13:29 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It says they tile the plane if and only if that TM does not halt.
06:15:03 <zzo38> I think that isn't what it says?
06:16:28 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure "translating any Turing Machine into Wang tiles" counts as being Turing Complete...
06:16:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> "If there is a curb, turn your steering wheel completely away from it if your vehicle faces up the hill,"
06:16:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> I'm confused, if the wheel is pointed away from the curb and the car starts moving backwards, won't it move away from the curb?
06:16:30 <Sgeo> <Sgeo> Or am I confused about steering wheels
06:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> Unless it means converting it into a /set/ of Wang Tiles for which the /solution/ can be converted /back/ into the TM's solution
06:18:20 <zzo38> I also am not quite sure by now, but it seem to me that it would be somehow, but I am not quite sure
06:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose TMs don't have a solution, especially not ones that don't halt
06:20:29 <zzo38> A Turing machine halts if and only if there exists a proof that it halts. (But you cannot necessarily prove that it does not halt.)
06:21:18 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I think that "if and only if" means you can
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07:41:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that is correct
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12:26:40 <oerjan> @ask hppavilion[1] um, you _do_ know about https://esolangs.org/wiki/Category:Computational_models, right? i'm not saying there shouldn't be a main page but you don't need to link to wikipedia for most of these.
12:30:29 <myname> why are petri nets not on this list?
12:31:34 <oerjan> because no one wrote a page, i guess.
12:34:09 <oerjan> zzo38: i see you changed the wikipedia links to be interwiki. this is a perfect example of why i dislike those: these are links to wikipedia pages that could mostly have been to our own pages instead, but there's no visual difference in my browser so if i don't click them or look at the source i won't see that there is something to correct.
12:37:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? don't interwiki links have a different color than intrawiki ones?
12:39:13 <b_jonas> impomatic_: the next expansion set is coming out in a few days
12:39:51 <oerjan> b_jonas: if there's a difference it is ridiculously subtle.
12:40:26 <oerjan> far smaller than the difference between visited and unvisited links
12:41:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: these are _not_ ordinary external links, but special namespaces for wikipedia etc. that mediawiki allows by default
12:42:56 <oerjan> impomatic_: b_jonas is joking, however zemhill is now working again, so there was recently a little activity.
12:43:26 <oerjan> EgoBot also works, though.
12:44:21 <b_jonas> Yes, I'm joking about M:tG, sorry.
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12:46:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44273&oldid=44270 * Oerjan * (-2) Fix case and make links point to our own wiki, see also
12:48:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44274&oldid=44273 * Oerjan * (+4) missed one
13:00:41 <int-e> oerjan: just quoting randomly from that esolang wiki article
13:07:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ if [ $(date +%Y) = "$(basename "$0")" ] \ then echo "Hello, world!" \ fi
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14:02:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44275&oldid=40175 * B jonas * (+120)
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15:58:02 <tswett> @tell hppavilion[1] Who says you have to be able to be able to *use* a model of computation? You can just convert a program into Wang tiles and call it a day.
16:11:51 <FreeFull> I want my quantum computer already
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16:19:47 <oerjan> but that requires a time-traveling quantum computer
16:22:10 <oerjan> this might be slightly relevant and i might eventually get through enough of my tabs to read it myself http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2464
16:22:47 <oerjan> now back to elliotts and extraterrestrials.
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16:50:36 <olsner> several called "X", I remember reading about a few more
16:51:52 <oerjan> isn't there a whole combinator bird book
16:51:54 <FreeFull> You don't even need I, SK is enough
16:52:28 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/To_Mock_a_Mockingbird
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16:53:11 <oerjan> this has a list http://www.angelfire.com/tx4/cus/combinator/birds.html
16:53:19 <olsner> I think I should read that book
16:53:52 <zzo38> Could you use CSS to change interwiki links to a different colours?
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16:55:24 <oerjan> zzo38: i'm pretty sure we asked elliott about that some time, and there was a problem...
16:55:27 <zzo38> oerjan: But the other reason I changed them is because one of them wasn't working anyways
16:56:00 <oerjan> zzo38: well now i changed most of them to point at our own wiki
16:56:13 <zzo38> Yes, that is better anyways
16:59:35 <zzo38> Interwiki links have the "extiw" CSS class, so you should be able to change the colours using that in your user CSS
17:00:42 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a non-tarbit based on Combinator Calculus
17:01:07 <zzo38> (You can format self links too)
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17:02:24 <oerjan> zzo38: as usual, i'd prefer it to work for everyone
17:02:25 <zzo38> .extiw { color: blue; }
17:02:53 <zzo38> You can set it in the global CSS then, and then users who do not want that can disable it in their user CSS.
17:06:06 <oerjan> fizzie: are you with us?
17:06:14 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i'm pretty sure i could set it too
17:06:31 <ais523> fizzie is currently in charge of the wiki (in terms of having the highest level of permissions)
17:06:44 <ais523> but several people here have pretty high permissions, such as me and oerjan
17:07:08 <oerjan> i've changed CSS before
17:07:42 <hppavilion[1]> It only talks about the SKI cominbators, which is wrong
17:08:14 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you can fix that yourself if you like, although probably in a separate section
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17:08:20 <hppavilion[1]> Or at least talk about other than just important combinators
17:08:33 <ais523> lambda calculus maps pretty well onto S, K, I, Y
17:08:49 <ais523> untyped lambda calculus doesn't need the Y, because you can implement it in terms of the others
17:09:04 <ais523> and I can be implemented as (SK)K, although that's mostly just coincidence
17:09:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Combinatory logic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44276&oldid=38949 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) Added a heading for when I update this later to talk about other important combinators
17:09:19 <ais523> I is like ~ from Underload, it isn't technically needed but it fits really neatly into the language
17:10:01 <fizzie> oerjan: ais523: We have interwiki links? What color are they now?
17:10:19 <oerjan> they are currently afaict identical to internal links
17:10:28 <hppavilion[1]> It'd use the S, B, C, and L combinators (see what I did there?)
17:10:30 <ais523> fizzie: we have one to Wikipedia, and I thought they were light blue
17:10:58 <oerjan> or well, they might be _slightly_ lighter blue
17:11:08 <shachaf> You can be implemented as SKK?
17:11:10 <ais523> same colour as external links, but without hte arrow
17:11:27 <zzo38> You can make them even more difference if you want to then
17:11:28 <oerjan> what i'd liked is to add the arrow.
17:11:41 <oerjan> or perhaps their own symbol
17:11:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44277&oldid=43900 * Ais523 * (+59) testing various links
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17:12:03 <ais523> here, spot the difference: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Sandbox
17:12:45 <fizzie> I'm sure you could also add a symbol with CSS.
17:13:14 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, I've visited the pages on intercal xD
17:13:26 <oerjan> i vaguely recall there was some problem doing that
17:14:02 <zzo38> At least in Mozilla it is possible to turn off visited links formatting globally
17:14:02 <fizzie> The external link icon seems to be added by a "background-image: url(data:...);" style.
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17:14:16 <zzo38> (Which I have done)
17:14:37 <oerjan> fizzie: more over there are heaps them for different formats
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17:14:52 <oerjan> fizzie: more over there are heaps them for different formats
17:15:17 <hppavilion[1]> I found a way to make Combinatory Logic languages a /little/ easier to read
17:15:39 <hppavilion[1]> Make the lexer detect combinators with this regex: /[A-Z][a-z]*/
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17:55:00 <tswett> Well, you have to figure out how you're representing numbers first.
17:55:05 <tswett> Church numerals are good.
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17:55:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you add with combinators the same way you add with any other Church numeral
17:55:46 * ais523 looks up the definition of addition in The Underlambda Project
17:55:58 <tswett> Let's see. Zero is KI, one is I, two is... eh, who cares about two.
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17:56:10 * hppavilion[1] thinks they're how you represent numbers in Lambda Caclucus
17:56:23 <tswett> All right, let's do lambda calculus numbers instead.
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17:56:32 <ais523> the formal definition is apparently a(:)~*(~a*^)*~*(~*)*
17:56:49 <tswett> Five: \f. \x. f (f (f (f (f x))))
17:57:06 <ais523> but there's a note that it can be optimized
17:57:20 <ais523> if you kow for a fact that you're dealing with integers
17:57:40 <ais523> tswett: you can convert \f.\x.f(f(x)) to combinators using the usual algorithm
17:57:45 <ais523> I jus forget what the usual algorithm is
17:58:10 <ais523> it's probably on the unlambda website (that is, the algorithm definitely is, the result of applying it to 2 might be)
17:58:44 <tswett> Let's see. Start with the first bit, you get \f. S (K f) f.
17:58:54 <tswett> Then do it again, and it's, uh.
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17:59:18 <tswett> S (S (K S) S) I, I think?
18:00:01 <ais523> the Unlambda website says 2 is ``s``s`kski
18:00:24 <ais523> and 3 is ``s``s`ksk``s``s`kski
18:00:34 <tswett> Let's see. S (S (K S) K) I f x = S (K S) K f (I f) x = K S f (K f) f x = S (K f) f x = K f x (f x) = f (f x)
18:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> Parenthesis are important in Combinatory Logic, correct?
18:01:34 <tswett> Or some other way of specifying precedence.
18:01:40 <hppavilion[1]> That makes making a Combinatory Logic language a /bit/ more difficult
18:01:47 <ais523> <unlambda> To decrement (and hence to substract) Church integers is by no means impossible. I don't know if it can be done with even moderate efficiency, however.
18:02:06 <ais523> The Underlambda Project subtracts integers via forming a lookup table of all possible subtractions, and then indexing it
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18:47:42 <zzo38> How do I tell Mozilla to request HTTPS resources from a proxy rather than tunneling the connection through the proxy?
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19:05:54 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you want efficiency, you'd use some sort of radixal numerical representation, like base 2 or a higher base for efficiency
19:06:17 <b_jonas> I have haskell code for binary integers at http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/Bin.hs
19:06:46 <b_jonas> obviously then you have to know how to translate algebraic structures to lambda calculus or directly to unlambda
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19:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stare/1.0]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44278&oldid=44206 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Changed the procedure with arguments syntax (I DID say it was frozen, but I realized this makes lexers stateless and thus easier)
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20:16:29 <zzo38> How much do you know of the very old rules of Magic: the Gathering? I don't know much about it.
20:18:10 <zzo38> From before Alpha up to Fifth Edition
20:19:35 <shachaf> I guess they had things like interrupts until Fifth Edition.
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20:20:18 <zzo38> Yes, they had complicated timing rules I do not completely understand, although I saw a diagram, the diagram doesn't explain everything. There was also damage prevention steps.
20:21:43 <shachaf> I think they may not have understood the rules completely either.
20:22:04 <zzo38> You could only target spells (to counter it or whatever) *before* it was placed onto the stack, I think; once it reached the stack it was too late.
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20:22:07 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, they had so many great cards back then
20:22:48 <zzo38> There were a lot of interrupt steps inside of other interrupt steps, and I think even the damage prevention step is a normal step inside of an interrupt step, but with the restriction that only damage prevention effects can be played.
20:23:31 <zzo38> And you don't lose due to running out of life points until the end of a phase.
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20:26:10 <zzo38> Artifacts were disabled when tapped, I think also mana abilities were interrupts (although on lands this was implied, on other cards it must be specified)
20:28:18 <b_jonas> pre-sixth edition rules? no, luckily I don't know them.
20:29:19 <zzo38> I have also seen some cards from before Alpha, and can see how those work too (but I am not certain about any of this): The large mana symbol on lands existed before Alpha, activation costs implicitly included tapping (there was no "Mono Artifact"), activation costs were printed next to the casting cost, mana costs like "5GG" meant "five manas, at least two of which are green", Plains cards had pictures of airplanes on it
20:34:11 <zzo38> The old Magic: the Puzzling are using old rules, so it would help to know all of the old rules of various editions
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20:38:46 <zzo38> I have a idea though, a kind of Magic: the Puzzling where it has one solution that works only without manaburn and another solution that works only if manaburn is reinstated
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20:41:34 <zzo38> I want to see if any of you who can see my "Wizard of Knowledge" prestige class of Dungeons&Dragons game to see any suggestion to fixed or whatever
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21:25:01 <S1> }<}}}<}}<}}}<}}<}}<}}<}}}}<}}}<}}<}}
21:25:29 <zzo38> S1: Which is what?
21:25:46 <S1> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BitChanger
21:26:16 <S1> Ignoring the memory mapping of Gregor Richards and simply mapping every next eight bits to one ascii char, my program should be a valid greeting
21:28:03 <S1> (cause I'm not sure if that Gregor Richards mapping belongs to the specification or just is an extra idea)
21:28:17 <S1> (so I'm ignoring it for now)
21:29:50 <Gregor> "Specification" is pretty arbitrary with esolangs.
21:30:06 <Gregor> I forced that style of I/O on the world by being the only person who implemented the language.
21:30:07 <S1> you know what I mean
21:30:25 <S1> so I'll have to get used to that, oh well
21:30:37 <Gregor> Or make your own impl *shrugs*
21:30:43 <S1> yea yea some day
21:30:45 <Gregor> Or modify egobch to do whatever you'd like
21:45:51 <S1> do the laundry?
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22:56:18 <zzo38> How do you tell Mozilla to request HTTPS stuff from a proxy rather than making the connection through the proxy?
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23:01:30 <zzo38> http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?f=38&t=358889 This is what I want it to do
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23:08:38 <boily> (let's check the logs. not sure it went through correctly.)
23:09:29 <HackEgo> U+F6A7 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef 9a a7 UTF-16BE: f6a7 Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+F6A7 \ Category: Co (Other, Private Use) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
23:10:18 <boily> it was supposed to be U+1F6A7 CONSTRUCTION SIGN. somewhere the astral plane character was basicified.
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23:21:08 <shachaf> @ask ais523 whoa, what's rnz() all about?
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23:27:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44279&oldid=44261 * 74.122.187.254 * (+13) Ajsone
23:28:38 <oren_> shachaf: maybe it's a typoed nrz?
23:29:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ajsone]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44280 * 74.122.187.254 * (+686) Ajsone
23:33:31 <boily> No Raptor Zone? Natural Rhinoceros Zoo? fungot?
23:33:31 <fungot> boily: i find there is no
23:33:41 <boily> ah, so the no raptor zone it is.
23:43:18 <fizzie> It's a random variable with the best distribution.
23:43:49 <fizzie> https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/File:Rnz100.svg
23:44:26 <fizzie> Many natural processes are well approximated by the rnz distribution. (Disclaimer: lie.)
23:45:18 <boily> it's used in a nasty perverse roguelike. it's a direct manifestation from the RNG. it's an EVIL distribution!
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23:58:23 <shachaf> I guess I should ask coppro.
23:58:33 <shachaf> coppro: What's with rnz()?
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00:02:30 <hppavilion[1]> I got a Stare AST with a hand-crank executer working :)
00:05:43 <oerjan> it's obviously japanese: rapotoro no zono, which confusingly means it _is_ a raptor zone hth
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00:10:48 <oerjan> i'm sure pikhq can confirm
00:11:47 <pikhq> That is incredibly obviously JApanese.
00:12:38 <boily> pikhq: 確認しらないでください
00:17:20 <oerjan> i'm sorry, i was slightly incorrect, it's actually raputoru no zōn, or ラプトル のゾーン
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00:25:58 <boily> hppavellon[1]. this is prolog.
00:26:26 <coppro> shachaf: I haven't a clue
00:26:49 <boily> fungot: hppavilion[1] is doing weird logical things.
00:26:49 <fungot> boily: ' ' for every y". that's why i rarely use it. also, whatever the student doesn’t have to provide evidence. please quote the title of the 2008 south ossetia war talk page is archived, then it can be still viewed on fnord keith binney user:keith binneykeith binney ( user talk:keith binneytalk) 06:15, 15 july 2007 ( utc)
00:27:33 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I /am/ buying a copy of To Mock a Mockingbird for kindle
00:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> Which is actually the most expensive one available (paperback is $7.39)
00:30:41 <boily> I need to curb my book acquisition. my backlog growth rate is exceeding my reading decay rate...
00:31:03 <boily> (says the guy who just bought the current Humble Book Bundle right now.)
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00:31:33 <boily> would you rather pay 3 + 1i$, or 5 - 3i$?
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00:35:07 <boily> $True doesn't typecheck with my brain.
00:35:45 <hppavilion[1]> boily: Everyone knows the American Economy is weak/dynamic typed
00:35:53 <fizzie> I was looking at a thing related to Euston station in Maps, and due to an attack of sillines typed "euston, we have a problem" -- #1 is reasonable, but wasn't expecting #2: https://googledrive.com/host/0B4J9OAzXNfZAYjQxai11SE1fdm8
00:36:09 <fizzie> At least it's trying to help.
00:36:39 <myname> obviously 3+1i$ is much less than 5-3i$
00:37:20 <boily> Mornington Crescent!
00:37:22 <myname> well, you could use the norm
00:37:39 <hppavilion[1]> myname: What's the norm again? Algebra II student here
00:37:55 <oerjan> obviously real and imaginary parts represent two currencies that are _not_ completely interconvertible hth
00:38:06 <boily> myname: yes, but that'd imply a loss of information by mapping back to Q from C.
00:39:08 <boily> myname: then it becomes unconfusing money, which isn't interesting.
00:39:32 <boily> hppavilion[1]: purely for statistical purposes, how öld are you?
00:40:59 <oerjan> although capitalism probably implies there will be _some_ conversion price.
00:42:08 <boily> we're at the vanguard of a booming market of complex money changers.
00:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> Then some douchebag introduces Sedenions to the world of money
00:50:25 <boily> that is something I won't be put with at up.
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01:00:21 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], sedenions are too useless even for mathematicians, so... not much
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01:02:36 <zzo38> What kind of thing can use units of square money? (I don't mean money which is shaped like square)
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01:25:01 <Sgeo> Apparently iOS 9 is adding a back button. And there goes one of the reasons I'm sometimes tempted to look at iPhones. Unless maybe iOS back is implemented better than Android?
01:25:39 <myname> what's wrong with androids back button?
01:26:05 <Sgeo> It's total nonsense.
01:26:26 <Sgeo> It doesn't go back to the last thing you were doing, sometimes it will go back in the application you just switched to via notification
01:26:58 <myname> it almost always does what i expect it to do
01:27:17 <myname> including going back to the last thing i was doing
01:27:32 <doesthiswork> It felt as if I was being teased because it talked about them as black boxes, while my thought was "what is the point of a box if not to look inside". I'm probably a descendant of pandora.
01:28:55 <myname> if it does stupid things it is because of apps that don't use the default action paradigm
01:29:04 <myname> skype for example sucks at that manner
01:29:17 <Sgeo> myname, YouTube is a Google app
01:29:42 <myname> what's wrong with youtubes back button behaviour?
01:29:48 <Sgeo> I think it's the default action paradigm sucks
01:29:57 <myname> it goes back your video watching history perfectly fine
01:30:14 <myname> which is exactly what i expect
01:30:14 <Sgeo> WHat if you wanted to go to what you were doing before, not within the YouTube app?
01:30:59 <Sgeo> "For example, when a notification takes the user to an activity deep in your app hierarchy, you should add activities into your task's back stack so that pressing Back navigates up the app hierarchy instead of exiting the app."
01:31:06 <myname> it should do that if you are at the start of the youtube history
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01:31:30 <Sgeo> myname, but if a notification popped up linking me to a video, I don't want to go back to youtube history if I'm done with the video
01:31:39 <Sgeo> etc. with Gmail
01:31:53 <myname> it doesn't, because there is no history then
01:32:32 <myname> if i open any link in connectbot in any app and press back there i will get back to connectbot
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01:34:07 <myname> it even works perfectly fine with multiwindow here
01:36:36 <Sgeo> I am now in reddit is fun. I get a notification about a new email. I open it, read the email. I press back, and it goes to my inbox (?!). I press back again, and I finally get back to reddit is fun
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03:34:33 <zzo38> I don't know, is there a combinator like that?
03:37:55 <shachaf> coppro: Why do you have all these nicks?
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03:52:29 <zzo38> Are you good at Dungeons&Dragons game?
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04:01:49 <Sgeo> "The _first round_ of getting my data off my dead harddrive will take around 3.5 days..."
04:02:12 <Sgeo> I... don't know where I got that number from. At least I have a date for when I started researching this
04:02:34 <Sgeo> I don't know why it would take that long. Nor where that HD went....
04:03:00 <zzo38> What is the capacity of the dead harddrive?
04:04:29 <zzo38> In my case it was the CPU that stopped working, rather than the harddrive, which still works and is now in a bag to label it and protect it from dust; I remove it when I need to copy some of the files from it
04:04:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I haven't played for ~15 years.
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04:07:06 <zzo38> shachaf: What characters you have made up and what version and are you any good at it?
04:07:14 <\oren\> I am working on a 8 by 8 version of my font
04:07:31 <shachaf> zzo38: I was pretty young, and it was in Hebrew.
04:07:45 <shachaf> It was an after-school thing in elementary school.
04:08:04 <shachaf> I think I didn't come up with a name for my character, so the person running it gave it an interim name.
04:08:30 <shachaf> Perhaps the interim name was "Niagara".
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04:10:15 <zzo38> Yes but what detail of character? Even if you did not write the name then you must have made up the other stuff
04:10:33 <shachaf> I think it was probably a wizard.
04:10:39 <shachaf> And I'm guessing Chaotic Evil.
04:10:53 <shachaf> Or at least I initially wanted to be Chaotic Evil. Someone might've dissuaded me.
04:11:18 <shachaf> I remember casting a sleep spell and then killing a bunch of monsters -- goblins? -- with a dagger while they were asleep.
04:11:46 <shachaf> And there was some sort of object -- altar? table? it might've been made of stone -- that we needed to destroy or something, though we didn't know that at the time.
04:11:53 <shachaf> I think we needed to destroy it with some sort of special hammer.
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04:16:24 <zzo38> There are many spells that can be used to destroy stuff made of stone too but you might not necessarily have any such spells. And there would be other ways to do it that do not involve any magic.
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04:19:20 <hppavilion[2]> Pancakification: What happens to you as you fall into a White Hole
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04:25:10 <zzo38> I don't know much about White Hole?
04:26:19 <fizzie> I've heard it's just like a time-reversed black hole.
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04:48:40 <\oren\> well then shouldnt people fall out of it, rather than in?
05:02:30 <hppavilion[2]> zzo38: fizzieL \oren\: It's basically a region in space where you can never enter, but can leave.
05:02:56 <shachaf> zzo38: It was some special important thing.
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05:04:38 <hppavilion[2]> I'm going to guess no, as there's no way to distinguish the "operators" (combinators) from the "operands" (combinators (case and point))
05:05:10 <hppavilion[2]> Not without parenthesis or an argument count argument, at least
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05:16:39 <hppavilion[1]> So RPN Combinatory Logic is /not/ a thing, correct?
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05:42:37 <\oren\> http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/1186284 <-- also, I made another font, this one is square
05:42:55 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Well RPN works with arithmetic and such because we can distinguish between operators and operands
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05:43:28 <hppavilion[1]> "Operators" and "Operands" (which are /not/ the correct terms) are the same
05:44:43 <hppavilion[1]> And furthermore, the number of other combinators a combinator accepts can vary (K (S x y) ) vs. (K (S x) y)
05:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> (also, having an RPN combinatory logic where we have an extra syntax where we write the argument count is cheatig)
05:47:18 <hppavilion[1]> I guess perhaps "x y S K" would be different from "x y K S". That's probably the solution, now that I think about it.
05:48:15 <hppavilion[1]> The SYA doesn't support variable-length function arguments for a reason
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05:50:40 <\oren\> hmm you could use , and . instead of spaces
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05:51:58 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: And how would that help? What would , and . mean?
05:53:23 <\oren\> . would be used as function composition
05:53:34 <\oren\> , would be used to separate arguments
05:55:56 <\oren\> IOW every S expression would be of the form
05:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'd probably just be better sticking with normal notation
05:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> That is, you have to code in a parsed program as a literal
06:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> "Turing Tarpits are easy. Come back when you want to ACTUALLY design a language"
06:06:57 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, tarpits are nice and all, but pretty much only when they bring something new to the table
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07:40:51 <myname> go tell the thousand people that design bf derivates
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11:25:53 <quintopia> i think we should have a corewars type game based on aubergine. much lower barrier to entry with many of the same strategies available
11:28:13 <quintopia> @ask boily corewars-clone based on aubergine?
11:29:26 <int-e> . o O ( damn, let me try that again )
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11:52:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44281&oldid=44274 * SuperJedi224 * (+9) /* Turing machines */
11:53:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44282&oldid=44281 * SuperJedi224 * (+91) /* Turing machines */
11:57:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of Turing-complete models of computation]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44283&oldid=44282 * SuperJedi224 * (+94) /* Turing machines */
11:58:22 <int-e> quintopia: ftr, that started out as "Do you hate verbs?" but some subtleties got lost in the translation into the quintopian language ;)
12:00:17 <quintopia> you cant drop verbs unless they are implied in quintopiese
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12:11:53 <Melvar> Where the hell did (&) as reverse function application come from?
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12:14:21 <blurelIse> possibly from a catamorphism melvar but im no expert
12:15:47 <int-e> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2012-November/018832.html
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12:16:08 <int-e> "the nae was free to take" seems to have played a significant role
12:16:43 <Melvar> The obvious choice, (#), wasn’t?
12:19:52 <int-e> hmm, lens 3.4: renamed `(%)` to `(&)`; lens 2.9: Renamed `|>` to `%`
12:21:40 <int-e> Anyway none of these names is obvious to me. I've seen code using |> in ML...
12:22:04 <Melvar> Certaintly F# uses that operator IIRC.
12:31:02 <int-e> hmm... 'The mnemonic for % is 'mod'ify.'
12:35:07 <int-e> (quoting from https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/17) later this happened: https://github.com/ekmett/lens/issues/100 ... Michael Sloane offerse a mnemonic for &: '(&) somewhat naturally suggests "and then" ... "and then"'
12:36:58 <int-e> and edward sums it up here, https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2012-November/018843.html
12:40:56 <Melvar> (&) is perfect for reverse *composition*, in my view.
12:41:36 <Melvar> “Another popular color of this bikeshed, (#) as is used in diagrams, interacts very poorly with MagicHash and has a very high precedence that ruins it for most dsl purposes.”
12:41:44 <Melvar> Why would it ever interact with MagicHash?
12:42:34 <Melvar> Moreover, why are you bound to use the same precedence as a given example using the name?
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12:52:33 <Melvar> Anyway, a missed opportunity to make sense. I’ll quiet down about it now.
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14:23:47 <\oren\> The current UTF-8 standard is wasteful with the code points now limited to 10FFFF
14:24:47 <izabera> what do you mean by "now"?
14:24:56 <izabera> did they change the standard?
14:25:48 <\oren\> originally you could have code points up to 31 bits
14:31:05 <FreeFull> UTF-8 would support code points up to 31 bits without any problem
14:31:21 <\oren\> upto to 36 bits, actually
14:31:35 <FreeFull> Yeah, without any problem and then some
14:31:44 <\oren\> but they limited it at first to allow utf-32 to work
14:31:57 <\oren\> now they limited it for utf-16
14:32:23 <myname> utf-16 - with all the disadvantages of utf-8 and utf-32 combined
14:32:27 <\oren\> One program I wrote uses utf-24
14:32:34 <FreeFull> At least it won't be limited any further now
14:33:51 <\oren\> e.g. it does (*(t_int32*)(s+i*3))&0xFFFFFF
14:35:10 <\oren\> the lowest 8 bits of the next code point have to be stripped out, but hey it works
14:36:52 <\oren\> utf-24 would be an eminently practical way to transmit data consisting mostly of supernal plane characters
14:38:36 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 3h 10m 23s ago: corewars-clone based on aubergine?
14:38:59 <boily> @tell quintopia Ō_Ō holy fungot that is one froody idea!
14:39:00 <fungot> boily: let's try to get the answers from biologists," he says. " these people used bin's power, authority and facilities to carry out this operation."
14:39:36 <boily> `addquote <fungot> let's try to get the answers from biologists," he says. " these people used bin's power, authority and facilities to carry out this operation."
14:39:36 <fungot> boily: justin returns annually to alsace where he if fnord as the fnord
14:39:38 <HackEgo> 1254) <fungot> let's try to get the answers from biologists," he says. " these people used bin's power, authority and facilities to carry out this operation."
14:40:10 <\oren\> supernal plane is from Mage: The Awakening
14:40:14 <boily> fungot: I don't really care about what Justin does. I'm still gonna vote for my local NDP deputee.
14:41:46 <\oren\> I am planning on flipping a coin and voting either red or orange depending
14:42:33 <\oren\> because canadiane politics is supremely boring
14:42:53 <boily> red bad. orange good. orange is your friend. oraaaaaaaange.
14:43:38 <\oren\> which one is going to refund the CBC?
14:43:51 <\oren\> I want my damn hockey broadcasts
14:44:48 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: it is hard to do better than UTF-8. you *can* lower the average bytes for each code point but not that much. let's keep ASCII compatibility and reassign x lead bytes and y cont. bytes (x+y=128); then some code points will get 4-byte sequence as the minimum of x*y^2 = 310 675 << 2^21.
14:44:49 <\oren\> oh it's the orange. orange then
14:45:27 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
14:45:33 <fungot> Selected style: wp (1/256th of all Wikipedia "Talk:" namespace pages)
14:45:44 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. as a fellow canuck, any political persuasions we should be aware of?
14:45:46 <\oren\> lifthrasiir: yeah but for most languages you want to skew it heavily to make the BMP chars shorter
14:46:12 <coppro> federally, at any rate
14:46:45 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: the minimum of x*y = 4 096, so the resulting distribution will be heavily skewed (even when there are 2^16 code points you have to assign many of them 3-byte sequences)
14:50:00 <\oren\> Hmm what if we assigned the currently unused chars to make particular sets of 3-byte chars 2-bytes
14:51:18 <\oren\> like F5, we could assign to make hiragana. and F6 to katakana
14:52:30 <\oren\> Also the system leaves many, many sequences invalid which could be used
14:54:59 <\oren\> I'll have to think about this
14:57:16 <boily> I believe it'll only create a mess similar to Shift-JIS.
14:59:52 <\oren\> shift-jis is only a mes because of 0xx and 1xx bytes being used in wide char encodings
15:00:22 <\oren\> there's no reason to discard a whole range of sequences of high-bit bytes
15:04:02 <Vorpal> Hm they limited Unicode?
15:04:32 <Vorpal> How many unallocated code points are left now?
15:11:50 <Vorpal> well, still a while until we run out then
15:13:09 <Vorpal> \oren\, I think we should use UTF-32 instead. If you are worried about space usage, just zlib it or something
15:13:23 <Vorpal> At least for data storage and transfer that makes sense
15:13:32 <Vorpal> Maybe not for processing though
15:15:16 <\oren\> A trivial encoding like "one 2xx byte followed by one or more 3xx bytes" would give us 2 bytes for points up to 0x1000 and three bytes for points up to 0x40000
15:17:21 <\oren\> it woukd give india a treat by making devanagari only 2 bytes each
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15:18:06 <Vorpal> \oren\, again, why does it matter? zlib is going to do a better job anyway
15:18:18 <int-e> \oren\: ah, but that wouldn't be self-delimiting; you need to look ahead in order to figure out whether a character was fully transmitted.
15:18:25 <\oren\> Vorpal = word processing
15:18:54 <int-e> (or more abstractly, it's not a prefix code)
15:19:08 <\oren\> int-e: yes. but transmission codes provide delimiters anyway
15:19:13 <Vorpal> \oren\, wouldn't UTF-32 be a better in memory representation anyway? That way characters are fixed with
15:20:11 <Vorpal> MercurialHg, balanced ternary
15:20:12 <\oren\> yes but do you really want to decode/reencode everying in every sed, grep etc implementation?
15:20:20 <Vorpal> (I have no idea what sort of language it is)
15:20:32 <Vorpal> \oren\, okay, that makes sense
15:21:07 <Vorpal> \oren\, though actually you don't need to: gzip -d foo.gz | grep | sed | gzip -
15:21:22 <Vorpal> Assuming everything is UTF-32 anyway
15:21:47 <\oren\> that's the same problem. you end up with a lot of extra processing
15:23:14 <\oren\> Oh I get it, you thought by word processing I meant like MS Word. whoops
15:24:08 <Vorpal> \oren\, emacs, stuff like that
15:24:10 <\oren\> I meant like you have a big file of CSV or JSON or whatnot and you want to process it
15:25:41 <\oren\> ideally for such process (which could happen on a server request) you should be able to do it very fast.
15:26:22 <\oren\> and with very little memory
15:27:05 <Vorpal> \oren\, though HTTP is increasily zlibed these days
15:29:13 <\oren\> assholes using a million cross-site mega-cookies, probably.
15:30:05 <boily> MercurialHg: ytterbot.
15:31:33 <Vorpal> MercurialHg, It should be called SubversionSvn
15:31:33 <oerjan> if you don't get that you don't deserve to name bots after elements hth
15:31:56 <Vorpal> boily, yes that is a very neat name
15:32:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, which ones was it again... Scandium, Yttrium, Yterbium, and some other I forgot the name of, right?
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15:33:55 <Vorpal> \oren\, oh and Terbium too
15:34:21 <Vorpal> And holmium and thulium
15:34:42 <Vorpal> Apparently not Scandium though
15:36:32 <Vorpal> According to wikipedia indeed not
15:36:37 <Vorpal> "At a quarry and mine near the village, the rare earth mineral yttria was discovered and named after the village. This crude mineral eventually proved to be the source of four new elements that were named after the mineral ore and the village. These elements are yttrium (Y), erbium (Er), terbium (Tb), and ytterbium (Yb)[1] and were first described in 1794, 1842, 1842, and 1878, respectively. In 1989 the
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15:36:37 <Vorpal> ASM International society installed a plaque at the former entrance to the mine, commemorating the mine as a historical landmark.[2]
15:36:37 <Vorpal> In addition, three other lanthanides, holmium (Ho, named after Stockholm), thulium (Tm, named after Thule, a mythic analog of Scandinavia), and gadolinium (Gd, after the chemist Johan Gadolin) can trace their discovery to the same quarry.[3]"
15:37:07 <Vorpal> Scandium is not in the list
15:37:20 <Vorpal> oerjan, yes, what were you talking about?
15:37:27 <oerjan> i thought you were just naming elements named after scandinavian places
15:37:56 <zzo38> I have written a SQLite extension to parse JSON (based on PDJSON, with one bug fixed), so that is one way to process big file of JSON by using a database, if you would need to.
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15:44:43 <oerjan> Vorpal: the article on Scandium itself is intriguing, though. it *was* extracted from gadolinite. it's not a lantanoid, though.
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16:22:30 <oerjan> @ask hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> So RPN Combinatory Logic is /not/ a thing, correct? <-- does unlambda with the grammar in reverse count?
16:23:44 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] i.e. si`i`si`i`` or even iis``iis```
16:25:53 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> And furthermore, the number of other combinators a combinator accepts can vary (K (S x y) ) vs. (K (S x) y) <-- that's just currying
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16:44:09 <oerjan> @tell Melvar <Melvar> Why would it ever interact with MagicHash? <-- if MagicHash is on, it's often mandatory to put space before it when using it as an operator.
16:44:32 <edwardk> int-e: (|>) has the wrong semiotics in haskell. it seems related to (<|>). (%) conflicted with Data.Ratio, which rather upset a number of folks.
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16:45:07 <oerjan> and |> is used in Data.Sequence
16:45:33 <edwardk> int-e: that is why those went away and (&) which has the benefit of being shorter than (|>), being unpaired due to (|) being taken by syntax, and being more or less unused because of confusion about and and or operators won
16:46:08 <edwardk> so yitz offered up (&) and i had no reason to prefer (%) over it other than stubbornness and i switched
16:46:32 <edwardk> and so the 'and...' sequencing mnemonic had the benefit that someone might guess it
16:48:40 <lambdabot> The operator ‘|>’ [infixl 5] of a section
16:48:40 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand,
16:49:34 <Melvar> oerjan: Surely you’re going to put a space before it anyway in all cases.
16:50:11 <oerjan> Melvar: well _some_ people might not. they might want to chain it like . especially if using lens
16:52:20 <Melvar> My own opinion is that (&) should have been reverse composition because of the and-then mnemonic. So “foo . bar . baz $ x” flips into “x # baz & bar & foo”.
16:53:04 <edwardk> Melvar: we already have the noisier operator (>>>) for that
16:53:09 <oerjan> my own opinion is that haskell sacked its syntax czar too early.
16:53:13 <edwardk> but (&) didn't have a name
16:53:41 <edwardk> a shorter (>>>) would have been useless to me and i'd have wound up taking (%) or something for this purpose anyways.
16:54:06 <lambdabot> ‘&&’ (imported from Data.Bool), ‘/=’ (imported from Data.Eq),
16:54:50 <edwardk> > (1,2) &~ do _1 %= 1; _2 *= 200
16:54:53 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M724657678350748221816791’
16:54:53 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
16:55:44 <edwardk> > (1,2) &~ do _1 += 1; _2 *= 200
16:56:03 <Melvar> ( :let instance Category (\a,b => a -> b) where id = Basics.id; (.) = Basics.(.)
16:56:17 <edwardk> &~ is inconsistent, because there is no operator & that takes a coherent type for its second argument and the result.
16:56:23 <oerjan> edwardk: pretty sure %~ and %= "should" have been &~ and &= if redoing this stuff
16:56:26 <edwardk> so it falls into a lexical gap
16:56:57 <edwardk> oerjan: you have hit on what % originally was 'mod', and why those had those names
16:57:13 <edwardk> but we kept the %~ and %= names
16:57:15 <oerjan> yeah i did rid the mailing list link above
16:57:24 <Melvar> ( :t Category.(.) (*2) (+1)
16:57:24 <idris-bot> Can't resolve type class Category cat
16:59:20 <oerjan> edwardk: there ought to be alphanumeric versions of <%~ and <<%~
16:59:53 <oerjan> they're like a gap in the alphanumeric style
16:59:54 <edwardk> meh, you can write them easily enough directly just by picking f = (,) a
17:00:13 <edwardk> the combinators do not try to offer everything the operators do
17:00:23 <edwardk> the names get too verbose and messy too quickly
17:00:29 <edwardk> the operators have a nice concise morphology
17:00:38 <edwardk> for those with religious objections to operators they can roll their own
17:00:51 <oerjan> well i understand not translating any other base operators than % and sometimes .
17:01:21 <oerjan> but i'm thinking maybe every "%" operator should have one
17:01:38 <edwardk> decided just not to climb this slippery slope =)
17:01:59 <edwardk> you have no idea how many bikeshedding requests in different directions like that i get every day about lens
17:02:14 <edwardk> so my apathy here is a result of having been worn down to a nub ;)
17:02:36 <lambdabot> *** "nub" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
17:02:36 <lambdabot> n 1: a small lump or protuberance [syn: {nub}, {nubble}]
17:02:36 <lambdabot> 2: a small piece; "a nub of coal"; "a stub of a pencil" [syn:
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17:34:48 <idris-bot> Prelude.List.nub : Eq a => List a -> List a
17:34:48 <idris-bot> Data.Vect.nub : Eq a => Vect n a -> (p : Nat ** Vect p a)
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19:15:54 <tswett> There was this restaurant once which served brined salmon. One day, some inspectors came in and found that there wasn't enough lighting to illuminate the salmon sufficiently.
19:16:02 <tswett> The restaurant was fined for lax lox lux.
19:27:20 <hppavilion[1]> NO CLUE WHAT "LOX" IS BUT I ASSUME IT'S SALMON SO LULZ
19:28:32 <pikhq> "Lox" is, indeed, brined salmon.
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20:06:49 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 27m 49s ago: Ō_Ō holy fungot that is one froody idea!
20:11:25 <quintopia> @tell boily aubergine+unconditional fork. (first argument=target of first process, second=target of second?)
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20:13:02 <tswett> So I've installed Mozilla Lightbeam, but I don't really know what this stuff means.
20:13:53 <tswett> Presumably circles are sites I've visited. What are the triangles? Apparently they're sites I've "connected with"; does that mean sites I've made an HTTP connection to?
20:14:02 <zzo38> Yes (unless you have something else to do)
20:15:21 <tswett> And what's the difference between a white line and a purple line?
20:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> It'll be a language that generally supports Combinatory Logic AND has some bonus features
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20:16:25 <zzo38> OK you can do that, see what bonus feature and also the other details.
20:17:41 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll just use Jay Conrod's parser combinator library...
20:17:57 <hppavilion[1]> I want to finish Stare 1.0 interpreter before starting something else
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20:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> Luckily, I wrote a lexer design library a while back that allows lexers to be made with a single object
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20:37:20 <zzo38> How does that one work?
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20:47:12 <hppavilion[1]> Also, can the Y combinator be defined in SK, or do I need to make it builtin?
20:47:44 <zzo38> Lexer design library
20:48:53 <hppavilion[1]> Then call lexer().add_token_expr(regex_string, tag) along with a few other optional arguments (transformation functions, slicing, etc.
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20:49:34 <tswett> Yeah, you can define the Y combinator. Let's see.
20:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out how to implement the S combinator in python, given an object that only has two variables: self.comb and self.arg
20:50:34 <hppavilion[1]> I call a function called combinator.eval(combinators)
20:51:26 <tswett> \f. (\x. f (x x)) (\x. f (x x)), that becomes \f. (S (K f) (S I I)) (S (K f) (S I I)), which in turn becomes...
20:52:22 <tswett> Something pukeworthy, I'm sure...
20:53:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so what are self.comb and self.arg?
20:54:12 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I have a class called CombinatorExp. When initialized, it takes two arguments: comb (combinator) and argument. I save those two variables to the class.
20:54:41 <hppavilion[1]> Later, I call CombinatorExp.eval(combinators), where combinators is a map telling the thing what non-SK combinators mean what
20:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> If it's the S combinator, well, that's what I'm trying to implement.
20:55:34 <hppavilion[1]> Else, if it's a non-primitive combinator, I evaluate that index of the combinators dictionary
20:56:03 <tswett> Well, currently, it sounds like a CombinatorExp can only represent an expression of the form (x y), where x is a combinator.
20:56:13 <tswett> What if x isn't a combinator? What if it's another expression?
20:58:01 <hppavilion[1]> I just fixed it for if you don't give it an argument
20:58:33 <tswett> All right. Suppose that D, E, and F are combinators. How do you represent the expression (D E) F?
20:59:25 <hppavilion[1]> `CombinatorExp(CombinatorExp('D', 'E'), CombinatorExp('F', None))` I believe
20:59:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: CombinatorExp(CombinatorExp('D',: not found
20:59:58 <hppavilion[1]> Well that might be a problem, now that I think about it
21:00:07 <tswett> So it sounds like self.comb can be a letter, but it doesn't have to be.
21:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/Combinatory-Logic-Playground/blob/master/AST.py
21:03:15 <tswett> Well, here's how I'd approach it.
21:03:32 <tswett> Start with an abstract class called Expression. Make every type of expression a subclass of Expression.
21:03:58 <coppro> we're talking about Haskell right?
21:04:14 <tswett> So one initial thought is to have two subclasses, ApplyExpression and CombinatorExpression.
21:04:39 <tswett> ApplyExpression contains two sub-expressions. CombinatorExpression contains a letter.
21:04:55 <tswett> I think Haskell is really well-suited to this.
21:06:04 <hppavilion[1]> I would use Haskell, but... well, I don't have a good reason.
21:09:58 <tswett> Expression has two abstract methods, eval() and apply().
21:10:13 <tswett> For ApplyExpression, eval() works by just calling apply() on its two sub-expressions.
21:10:45 <tswett> And apply() works by, um... I'll have to think about that.
21:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> What I have so far should work, unless it's broken by the s combinator
21:11:40 <tswett> For CombinatorExpression, eval() usually just makes the object return itself. (Expression objects should be immutable, by the way.)
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21:12:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'm using python, so... not sure if that's possible
21:12:32 <tswett> self.apply(arg) adds arg to the argument list of self, and then, if self has enough arguments in its argument list, it constructs a new expression as appropriate and returns that.
21:12:56 <tswett> And when I say it adds arg to the argument list of self, by "self", I mean "a copy of self".
21:13:06 <tswett> Something along those lines.
21:14:07 <hppavilion[1]> But I ALSO have eval() and apply() accept an argument of type map that maps combinator names to expressions, just so you can define new combinators programmatically
21:14:25 <tswett> For ApplyExpression, self.apply(arg) should pretty much return self.eval().apply(arg), since eval() should never return an ApplyExpression.
21:15:20 <tswett> I mean, "eval() should never return an ApplyExpression" is sort of a self-imposed rule.
21:16:06 <tswett> The reason I'm suggesting imposing it is that we can consider ApplyExpressions to be "unevaluated", and eval() shouldn't return an unevaluated expression.
21:16:24 <hppavilion[1]> I have a feeling I'm going to end up with code I can't understand by the time I'm done xD
21:22:41 <tswett> It looks like your K is actually I.
21:23:06 <tswett> In any case, let me see if I can suggest a gradual series of small changes.
21:23:44 <hppavilion[1]> * For this to work, I need to make S accept its 3 arguments
21:23:44 <hppavilion[1]> * New combinators to be definable with <name> = <expression>
21:23:44 <hppavilion[1]> * Defined combinators to accept multiple arguments (via currying) like S does
21:24:42 <hppavilion[1]> Or, if we assume that 2.2 is a subgoal, 2 goals and 1 subgoal
21:24:58 <tswett> Now, my idea is to say that an expression of the form, say, (S x) or (S x y) is represented by a CombinatorExpression.
21:25:24 <tswett> And that means that CombinatorExpression is going to have a self.args attribute.
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21:25:54 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think that's combinatory though... But I can do it
21:26:51 <tswett> Another option is to replace CombinatorExpression with six other classes: SExpression, S1Expression, S2Expression, KExpression, K1Expression, and IExpression.
21:27:18 <tswett> Which represent, respectively, expressions of the form (S), (S x), (S x y), (K), (K x), and (I).
21:27:38 <tswett> That may or may not be excess complexity.
21:27:43 <hppavilion[1]> IExpression could, of course, be represented with others
21:28:25 <hppavilion[1]> One idea I thought of to enable currying is to make S x return a new combinator which would be a hash of the string "S x"
21:28:41 <hppavilion[1]> And then that would just apply to the next expression
21:29:00 <hppavilion[1]> Not "return a new combinator" so much as "add a new combinator to the combinator dictionary"
21:29:07 <tswett> That's certainly *an* option.
21:29:59 <tswett> But you'll still need to define a meaning for that new combinator.
21:30:12 <zzo38> When are they going to make the rules of Magic: the Gathering to be sufficiently mathematically elegant?
21:30:59 <tswett> zzo38: in other words, when are they going to implement them in C#?
21:32:01 <\oren\> is there a difference between ((K x) (K x)) and ((K x) K) x?
21:32:31 <tswett> The former is x, and the latter is (x x).
21:32:48 <\oren\> yeah. so parens are in fact necessary
21:35:07 <tswett> K (K x) y z is x while K K x y z is y, so if you can add and remove parentheses, then everything is equal to everything.
21:36:50 <zzo38> tswett: I don't meant C# I meant by mathematics. Rules might be found more clear in such a way
21:37:49 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I think I might know how to figure this out
21:37:52 <tswett> zzo38: so the rules would consist of mathematical prose?
21:38:04 <hppavilion[1]> What happens if we add all the redundant parenthesis to S x y z?
21:38:18 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: (((S x) y) z)
21:38:39 <tswett> zzo38: would you hope to end up with less than 100 pages of prose at the end?
21:39:10 <zzo38> (Preferably ones that can also be put into the computer, such as with Literate Haskell you can almost do like that)
21:39:27 <zzo38> tswett: I don't know. It depend how big are the pages, and what rules are modified and some other stuff
21:40:38 <zzo38> But I had other idea too, make up the programming language for defining the rules and effect of cards of these kind of card games, and then implement rules with such a thing. My idea is to use RDF and then make up a literate RDF format to write rule with (like Xturtle with WEB together, perhaps)
21:45:37 <zzo38> I think I have shown a few examples on here before of what I was thinking of how to do
21:45:49 <\oren\> It seems to me that if you are writing game rules in a computer-readable logical form, then you're halfway to writing a comuter game, so why not just do that
21:46:16 <zzo38> \oren\: Sure that is one thing it can be used for, but the intention is that it would be independent of such things.
21:46:21 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I think it has to be both computer-readable AND human (non-advanced-programmer) readable
21:46:56 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Yes, that is kind of also how I have meant
21:47:21 <zzo38> (Not exactly, but close)
21:47:59 <zzo38> I think literate programming, with a mathematically-defined programming language, is the way.
21:50:48 <zzo38> Haskell is an idea too I thought yes.
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21:51:15 <zzo38> But I am not quite sure if Haskell (or any other existing programming language) is particularly suitable which is why I had idea make the new kind
21:53:20 <zzo38> But also just some of the rules of the game is too klugy or otherwise inelegant in my opinion and I would have done differently
21:53:34 <Sgeo> I just remembered that mothy does have an end of the world song for the 2nd-3rd era
21:53:41 <Sgeo> So where's the end of the 3rd era song?
21:55:49 <zzo38> (Xturtle is a superset of RDF Turtle; I have written a Xturtle parser in C. WEB is the programming language TeX is written in; it combines TeX with Pascal codes and can be preprocessed into a Pascal code to be sent to a Pascal compiler; CWEB is similar but with C instead, and then you can have RDFWEB to write this new one with.)
21:58:10 <Sgeo> There's a part of the song that's intentionally musically bad, which makes sense but makes me sad
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22:18:49 <\oren\> sgeo: I know a song that has intentional noise that sounds like a speaker being plugged in
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22:26:47 <Sgeo> \oren\, o.O link?
22:28:43 <pikhq> Huh. I did not know that accredited CS programs were not that common. Like, there's actually a number of people walking around with CS degrees that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
22:28:47 <pikhq> This explains a lot.
22:31:01 <pikhq> myname: In the US, there's not much formal regulation on higher education at all.
22:31:37 <pikhq> In essence, any organization can hand out pieces of paper and call them degrees in whatever they feel like with whatever justification they feel like.
22:32:16 <pikhq> What makes them "real" is a third party organization that people trust the opinion of, accrediting a degree program as meeting their standards.
22:33:27 <pikhq> Ooor people just recognizing the degree as having value regardless of what an accrediting body says.
22:34:10 <pikhq> In the case of computer science, there's a large number of degree programs with no accrediting whatsoever.
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22:34:43 <pikhq> Which is just fine if it's Stanford (yes, really, Stanford's CS program is not accredited), but not so much if it's Univeristy of Bumblefuck KS.
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22:47:07 <Vorpal> pikhq, really? Stanford is not accredited?
22:47:21 <Vorpal> pikhq, I guess they just think that they are well known enough they don't need it?
22:47:26 <pikhq> I believe that's just their CS program in particular.
22:47:33 <pikhq> Harvard has the same deal.
22:47:42 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: currying means that you only need a syntax for applying a combinator to _one_ argument.
22:47:47 <Vorpal> pikhq, what about MIT?
22:47:52 <pikhq> MIT is accredited.
22:47:59 <pikhq> Stanford is known for CS *in particular* though.
22:48:10 <oerjan> e.g. unlambda's `, which is normally prefix but could easily be postfix instead.
22:48:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, really though, Harvard, Stanford and MIT wouldn't need to be accredited. Their name carries enough weight on it's own
22:48:39 <hppavilion[1]> Actually, a CS degree from the University of Bumblefuck KS is good for a cryptography job
22:49:25 <Vorpal> Malebolge is not a thing even afaik?
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22:49:32 <oerjan> one is a programming language named for a circle of hell, the other is a circle of hell hth
22:49:34 <Vorpal> So isn't it typoing rather than mixing it up
22:50:57 <oerjan> yes, but the typo is official
22:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> I've started work on LIME (the LIME Integrated Mathematical Environment)
22:58:04 <oerjan> it's a common notation. you are making the error of thinking that math notation is unambiguous hth
22:58:38 <oerjan> i'd say it's the most likely interpretation of the left side, assuming no other context.
22:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an environment in which one can do a bunch of mathy things
23:00:23 <oerjan> the thing is, + is ridiculously overloaded, and there is an old convention using it for boolean algebra.
23:00:39 <oerjan> in which case it could be union instead.
23:00:58 <oerjan> (boole originally used addition and multiplication notation)
23:01:53 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to try to make this some sort of hybrid beetween Traditional Mathematics and Programming
23:04:00 <oerjan> & for union is a little confusing, since when you treat bitfields in C as boolean algebras that's exactly _intersection_
23:05:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out where I'm going with this xD
23:08:24 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make LIME at all memory-efficient, or should I just use BigFloat for everything?
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23:27:30 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make the AST support computer sciency things and save other things for the parser
23:30:28 <hppavilion[1]> So Computer Sciency-ness will be an option that the parser determines
23:31:52 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Your professional opinion. Is making ^ work as bitwise xor OR as exponentation depending on the option a good idea for a program targetted at mathematics students?
23:32:26 <hppavilion[1]> It'd be a pain to implement, but it might be a good idea
23:34:46 <oerjan> both are sort of about lacking the real math symbols (superscripts or that sum-in-a-circle thing)
23:35:13 <hppavilion[1]> I want this to be easy to use when typed from a keyboard
23:35:35 <oerjan> what if they want to use both?
23:35:55 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could use a LaTeX-like syntax where if you type, for exmple, "\lambda" it would come out as <insert little lambda here>?
23:36:11 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Oh, forgot to mention that if CS mode is on, ** is exponentation
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23:36:57 <hppavilion[1]> LIME is actually going to parse every instruction into two different ASTs: Algebraic and Arithmetical
23:37:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Arithmetical encompassing Arithmetic, Geometry, a bit of algebra, Set Theory, etc.)
23:38:38 <hppavilion[1]> (So if you want to get the sum of the set of 1 and x and a triangle, Arithmetical is used, whereas if you want to rearrange an expression, Algebraic is used)
23:51:40 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I wouldn't use the notation {1,2} + 3.
23:52:56 <tswett> The fact that someone might want a feature doesn't necessarily mean that you should implement it.
23:55:43 <hppavilion[1]> It's valid mathematical notation, as far as I know
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00:08:48 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: I think it has to be both computer-readable AND human (non-advanced-programmer) readable <-- my prejudices say this is a contradiction unless you want to _severely_ shrink the customer base.
00:09:24 <oerjan> although perhaps magic players are already all nerdy enough to reach that level
00:10:17 <zzo38> That is why I suggested something a bit different!
00:11:05 <boily> hezzo38ppaviliœrjan[1]!
00:11:15 <lambdabot> quintopia said 3h 59m 49s ago: aubergine+unconditional fork. (first argument=target of first process, second=target of second?)
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01:11:51 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I'd definitely call {1,2} + 3 unconventional notation.
01:12:08 <tswett> It's not the sort of thing you use if you want to be understood without having to explain yourself.
01:12:15 <tswett> 3 is a number, {3} is a set.
01:13:44 <tswett> I think I'd still consider that non-standard notation.
01:14:09 <tswett> If I'm reading a math paper, and it says "For all sets X and Y of integers, X + Y is ...", I'm going to be confused.
01:14:35 <tswett> I'd figure it *probably* means exactly what you've been using it to mean. But I'd be unsure.
01:31:17 <\oren\> {1, 3} + {4, 5} = {5, 7, 6, 8}
01:32:31 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: Technically, yes. But I would order the set properly for OCD purposes.
01:37:46 <\oren\> then X + Y is simply the image set of the cartesian product of X and Y
01:38:37 <\oren\> (well, some would dispute the use of the word "simply" there, but YMMV)
01:39:00 <zzo38> I have thought of thing like Ajsone esolang but with RDF instead of JSON. (It has also been done with XML)
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02:38:41 <blurelIse> i get the impression im not gonna find the philosophers stone here
02:41:05 <zzo38> I don't think the "philosopher's stone" exists, so probably you will not find it on here.
02:42:24 <blurelIse> i get the impresion I won't be able to find someone here who can explain why putrification is such a neccessary part of transmutation
02:42:52 <zzo38> I don't know any alchemy, sorry. I doubt most people on here know much about it.
02:44:00 <HackEgo> blurelIse: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:44:29 <oerjan> blurelIse: i get the impression you may be right
02:44:59 <blurelIse> granted im still interested in coding an esoteric language
02:45:25 <zzo38> I also don't know any esolang called "philosophers stone"
02:45:57 <blurelIse> great, then maybe i'll make one :)
02:46:29 <blurelIse> sounds way more fun than coding an AI that moves crates
02:46:50 <shachaf> but do you know the Stoned Philosophers problem?
02:47:16 <blurelIse> hmm.. is that the one about the guy who knew the well water would drive everyone crazy?
02:49:14 <zzo38> I have not heard of "Stoned Philosophers" problem, so I don't know what it is
02:55:22 <blurelIse> shachaf: was that just a cheeky way of asking if i was blazed off my gord, or an actual problem?
03:03:02 <doesthiswork> the silverfish are peeking starting to wander around while wondering why I still have the lights on.
03:05:52 <tswett> When you're trying to get ketchup out of a plastic bottle, the typical way to do so is by squeezing the bottle.
03:06:23 <tswett> But I've heard that they make "pourable ketchup" bottles.
03:06:41 <tswett> I'm not sure what's different about them, but presumably with those bottles, it's possible to get the ketchup out unsqueezingly.
03:07:19 <blurelIse> i saw an article on a special new plastic that has a full flip surface
03:07:35 <blurelIse> not even glue sticks to the inside of the bottle, it jsut slides off and out
03:07:59 <tswett> Yeah, it's neat stuff.
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04:02:19 <\oren\> A nuclear reactor can transmute one element into another, but it usually is a lighter element thatn you started with
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04:11:29 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere that it is very expensive to convert one lead atom into one gold atom, and it is not generally worth it.
04:12:17 <blurelIse> well sure if youre just pouring a bunch of money into equipment and tech to make it happen
04:12:44 <blurelIse> but the knowledge of natural law in doing the process with only tools at hand
04:12:50 <blurelIse> that knowledge is worth every minute
04:13:29 <zzo38> Yes, knowing how it can be done is worth it, I agree.
04:13:43 <zzo38> But it isn't generally worth it to actually do such thing especially for large quantities.
04:14:31 <blurelIse> yeah considering you'd probably have better luck panning in a river getting quantifiable amounts, isn't worth it for the gold
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04:16:31 <zzo38> Try to answer the question: Copper, Silver, Gold, and then what comes next? A few people are answer different (and my answer seems to be the uncommon one) although see what you would say too, and then we can make the poll?
04:17:33 <zzo38> Patashu: Do you have .NSF of Famitracker chiptunes? And, what expansion chip use (if any)? (As far as I know, Famitracker can use only up to one expansion chip per song, but I know that ppMCK is capable of using multiple at once)
04:18:04 <blurelIse> the obvious choice would be platinum
04:19:04 <zzo38> That is many people's answer, but my answer was roentgenium
04:19:27 <zzo38> (Note that the question gives no context as that is how it is supposed to work.)
04:20:06 <blurelIse> profane explanation would be that its ascending in value, or worth in reward
04:20:34 <blurelIse> i assume your answer is provisional to having a periodic table on hand
04:21:35 <Patashu> "<zzo38> Patashu: Do you have .NSF of Famitracker chiptunes?" Yes, lots. "And, what expansion chip use (if any)?" I personally use VRC6 and MMC5 and rarely N163, but I have ftms/nsfs from other people for everything else. "(As far as I know, Famitracker can use only up to one expansion chip per song, but I know that ppMCK is capable of using multiple at once)" Actually, you can use all six
04:21:36 <Patashu> expansion chips in a song in vanilla Famitracker, what you CAN'T do is create that file using only in-program means, you have to hex edit to set all the flags (or use a branch of Famitracker such as 0CC-Famitracker)
04:22:05 <Patashu> zzo38: As an example, I always provide nsfs of my songs I upload to soundcloud.com/patashu . If you need an nsf with a specific other expansion chip, let me know and I'll dig
04:22:44 <zzo38> I don't need ones with specific expansion chips (I can easily find or make them myself if I need them); I only wanted to know what you had
04:25:09 <zzo38> You can see the .NSFs I made too if you want to, although I use ppMCK. I have not provided renders.
04:28:00 <zzo38> We have a lot of Deadfish implementations, but none in TECO yet, nor in QUACKVM, or various other stuff
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04:35:43 <tswett> I'm trying to think how to prove that there exist at least two groups.
04:36:34 <blurelIse> old orange and apples metaphor not working?
04:36:54 <tswett> I dunno, I think I'm going to temporarily give up on this and go for something easier.
04:37:02 <tswett> Namely: proving that there exist at least two sets.
04:37:38 <zzo38> Can you prove it by exhibiting instances?
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04:39:49 <zzo38> I also do not see a implementation of Deadfish in LLVM
04:40:15 <tswett> Only if I can prove that the instances are different.
04:40:24 <tswett> I could, say, prove that {} is not {x}.
04:40:35 <zzo38> tswett: Well, yes, you must prove that of course.
04:40:58 <tswett> What I really mean, though, is that there exist at least two sets, up to bijection.
04:41:08 <tswett> So this means I must prove that there is no bijection between {} and {x}.
04:41:28 <\oren\> hmm platinum has a current market value slightly lower than gold
04:43:04 <zzo38> \oren\: O, I don't keep track of what are current market value of platinum and gold and so on. I just know that in Dungeons&Dragons game 3.5 edition, a platinum coin is worth ten times as much as a gold coin
04:43:34 <tswett> They're eleven times as heavy hth.
04:44:06 <tswett> I think it's kind of cute how in the United States, just like in D&D, there are "copper", "silver", and "gold" coins, each worth ten times as much as the last.
04:44:25 <tswett> (Namely, the penny, the dime, and the dollar.)
04:44:27 <\oren\> current platinum price per troy oz is 981 USD, gold is 1139 USD
04:44:42 <\oren\> dollar coins only exist in Canada not US hth
04:44:53 <zzo38> Yes, I have used such analogy to describe to some people, the penny, dime, and loonie (in Canadian money, that is!) in term of Dungeons&Dragons game
04:46:02 <tswett> \oren\: crap, that means the US Mint has been scamming us!
04:46:39 <tswett> And to think I once handed them twenty dollars in exchange for twenty of their so-called "dollar coins"!
04:46:52 <tswett> Man. I swear, heads will roll.
04:48:17 <tswett> And dimes aren't really made of dime. I mean, of silver.
04:48:20 <blurelIse> actually theres probably more nickel in us pennies than copper
04:48:34 <blurelIse> quraters havent been real silver int he US since 1971
04:49:16 <blurelIse> i used to buy precious metals professionally (fun fact)
04:49:51 <blurelIse> the platinum thing, i mentioned reward, as in after an album goes gold, it goes platinum
04:50:51 <blurelIse> another fun fact: napoleon gave all his dinner guests gold utensils, but his were not. Can you guess what his were made of?
04:51:32 <\oren\> tswett: Canadian dimes were made of silver until the 1920s
04:51:40 <zzo38> Were they aluminum?
04:52:21 <blurelIse> aluminum used to be far more valuable than gold, and rarer too
04:53:35 <blurelIse> if you sent that homeless guy you always see with his huge shopping cart full of cans back to napoleon times, he'd be a king
04:54:16 <\oren\> Well you can still get 1 oz silver, gold, and platinum coins
04:56:08 <\oren\> there is a Canadian silver 5-dollar coin which in 1 oz of 99.99% silver
04:59:53 <\oren\> wait what. they have a palladium coin too. wtf is palladium good for?
05:01:20 <blurelIse> craeting a monetary value out of an imaginary idea, then selling it to the establishments for 1.5 dollars per dollar to give to thier people
05:10:35 <zzo38> I think IRC has a good set of features, although some servers do not implement some, or add their own too
05:14:23 <blurelIse> automatic translation between languages
05:32:04 <blurelIse> aye, they said the same thing to the wright brothers
05:41:20 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: The Wright Brothers were trying to make a thing not fall as fast as normal. You're suggesting I take two incompatible ways of representing information and convert between them freely. Not just two, but thousands.
05:43:26 <tswett> Should you paint an albatross?
05:43:53 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I'm not a very good painter and have no interest in improving in that area
05:43:56 <tswett> Should I go to bed now?
05:44:00 <tswett> Should good night, everyone?
05:44:37 <blurelIse> i see all these language packs install with software, always wonder why they cant just cross reference all fo them using a deep search algorhithm and make auto tranlates happen
05:45:01 <blurelIse> kinda like that "translate this page" button in chrome
05:45:11 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: Because whatever you just talked about is unreliable
05:45:28 <blurelIse> why cant i just click "translate this" and get a semi close translation in irc
05:45:47 <blurelIse> it doesnt have to be totally accurate, just knowing an idea of what someone is saying helps if youre a human
05:45:51 <Sgeo> Someone could make a client that does
05:45:53 <hppavilion[1]> Also, "translate this page" requires a connection to google translate. This is fine in browsers, where you generally need internet to be viewing a page. But in an offline program... not so much
05:46:09 <hppavilion[1]> And using the google translate API, before you ask, costs money
05:47:03 <\oren\> it would be nice if someone wrote a simple word-for-word translation tool
05:47:03 <blurelIse> but itd be a nice feature in chats/social place
05:47:25 <hppavilion[1]> \oren\: That's impossible. Your grasp of linguistics seems to be lacking.
05:47:45 <Sgeo> How do you translate Hebrew et?
05:47:46 <\oren\> hppavilion[1]: a lookup table is impossibe
05:47:52 <Sgeo> I'm under the impression it's like an ;s
05:48:00 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: It would be, but then again, you're using this to communicate with someone who lives in practically another world.
05:48:03 <blurelIse> yeah, alot of languages have context and tone involved
05:48:15 <blurelIse> in chinese the same word for aunt is also donkey depending on the tone
05:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make some high-level sexpr-based language for fun
05:48:51 <Sgeo> \oren\, how do you translate this word? http://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/4933/meaning-of-et%D7%90%D7%AA-and-vet%D7%95%D6%B0%D7%90%D6%B5%D6%A5%D7%AA-in-genesis-11
05:49:21 <blurelIse> however, an inaacurate, semi simple word for word, based on "alphabetical order" language packs would be sufficient
05:49:57 <blurelIse> or just grab those english-spanish dictionaries
05:50:04 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: But word-for-word is impossible. And how would you translate German to English? In german, it's impossible to list all the words
05:50:21 <\oren\> All I'm saying is, the tool would read in そのビルは高い and wirte out [that][building][about][tall]
05:50:30 <blurelIse> im sure theres a german to english dictionary that would suffice
05:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> blurelIse: But that would be inelegant! In german, you can just /make up/ words!
05:51:04 <\oren\> literlly each word would be looked up and swapped for the closest word in target language tih no reordering
05:51:21 <blurelIse> all logistics aside, just wanted to stress it is realistic, would jsut require an immense effort
05:51:35 <hppavilion[1]> Also in german, you can /split words in fucking half/
05:51:55 <hppavilion[1]> How do you handle that without an uber-complex special case?
05:52:11 <Sgeo> \oren\, and do you ignore untranslatable words?
05:52:20 <Sgeo> Hebrew's et is just a grammatical marker or something
05:52:32 <Sgeo> So you can probably ignore it if you throw out grammar, I _think_
05:52:33 <blurelIse> if someone said to me in german that they liked long walks on teh beach, and a translator told me, long walks liked sausages to beach on, it would be far more useful than not understanding a single word
05:52:38 <\oren\> either ignore or leave them in place
05:54:05 <\oren\> for languages which have the same word order roughly, this would work very well in practical cases
05:55:18 <\oren\> E.g. Je ne t'aime pas -> I not you like
05:56:51 <\oren\> either way, an imperfect translation is better than having no translation available offline
05:57:38 <\oren\> I bet you could store a table of the top 10000 words in the top 10 languages in basically no space.
05:58:08 <\oren\> e.g. maybe the distrbiution would be 1 megabyte?
05:59:14 <zzo38> How can I implement phase of moon and astrological sun sign (which includes equinoxes and solstices) in TeX? I already have a lot of other stuff including Easter calculation, leap year calculation, Discordian calendar, etc, but not that yet!
06:00:11 <\oren\> maybe use kepler's laws plus a table of anomalies?
06:00:29 <\oren\> (since the orbit drift slightly over time)
06:01:24 <\oren\> you can have a set of orbital parameters for each decade or maybe century
06:03:19 <zzo38> Hopefully a precision of quarter-hours should be sufficient, if it is not necessary to print the exact times
06:08:09 <Jafet> Just port the J2000 database into TeX hth
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06:27:59 <zzo38> I don't know the way to do this ephemeris stuff in TeX (because I have not decide what seem best way), but I have done a lot of other stuff with TeX including parsing algebraic chess notation and Forsyth-Edwards notation and making chess diagram from them, and also a ASCII PBM parser, and POSTNET barcode generator. But, the other thing I do not have is TeX program to generate QR codes
06:29:22 <zzo38> Although maybe a postprocessor could be used to generate QR codes, possibly
06:33:40 <zzo38> OK, the AWK code of Deadfish is not quite the shortest one; the shortest code is actually APLBAONWSJAS.
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07:20:56 <fizzie> Google Translate's "instant" mode (where it OCRs text from the live camera feed, translates it, and replaces it in the original image) works offline, with a language pack taking (IIRC) just a single-digit amount of megabytes.
07:21:25 <fizzie> It's (mostly) word-for-word, although a lot smarter than a single dictionary.
07:22:32 <fizzie> (The Translate mobile app also lets you download packs for "proper" offline translation, but those are in the order of hundreds of megs.)
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15:16:38 <HackEgo> [U+2009 THIN SPACE] [U+00A0 NO-BREAK SPACE]
15:28:07 <HackEgo> sth/"sth" is short for "something that hibernates".
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15:31:01 <olsner> or, as opposed to happy to help, sad to help?
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15:46:52 <boily> hellolsner. nothing is wrong in the Wisdom.
15:47:41 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
15:48:38 <HackEgo> Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
15:48:54 <oerjan> the lie is that he publishes papers hth
15:49:22 <olsner> the past is a time, so that counts as sometime
15:49:47 <oerjan> ah but "publishes" is present tense, checkmate olsner
15:50:20 <olsner> *shrug* it was present tense at the time
15:51:12 <oerjan> well no one said wisdom isn't _sometimes_ factually accurate.
15:53:39 * boily loves the smell of Wisdom in the morning
15:54:17 <olsner> boily: wisdom is not a smell, and it is not morning
15:54:27 <oerjan> <blurelIse> another fun fact: napoleon gave all his dinner guests gold utensils, but his were not. Can you guess what his were made of? <-- this is eerily close to, but somehow disturbingly off from wikipedia's version
15:55:04 <int-e> olsner: fwiw, roses aren't a smell either, and people still talk about the smell of roses.
15:56:01 <b_jonas> ais523: you're still maintaining ayacc, you haven't disowned it, right?
15:56:10 <oerjan> b_jonas: no, i didn't react to that part
15:56:13 <olsner> a quick google suggests aluminum
15:56:16 <boily> olsner: there remains five minutes of morning.
15:56:41 <ais523> b_jonas: not disowned, just I'm not working on it right now
15:56:46 <ais523> I'll come back to it some time later
15:56:51 <oerjan> it's just that it wasn't _the_ napoleon, and he wasn't the _only_ one who got aluminium.
15:56:53 <ais523> if someone else wants to take over maintenance meanwhile, I wouldn't object
15:56:54 <b_jonas> olsner: hmm, was that back when aluminum was more expensive than gold, or later when it was manufanctured for cheap with electrolysis?
15:57:01 <olsner> boily: oh, you saved some morning for later? that's good planning
15:57:21 <oerjan> not that napoleon III wasn't a cool guy by himself.
15:58:00 <ais523> @tell shachaf you probably don't want to know more about rnz, but if you do, see https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rnz
15:58:03 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, and no, I won't take over maintenance, but I might try it out some time
15:58:05 <int-e> oh, regarding "sometimes", http://starslip.chainsawsuit.com/starslip/night-shift-crisis/ seems relevant.
16:03:15 <oerjan> <tswett> Should you paint an albatross? <-- no. it'll just get annoyed and possibly attack you hth
16:03:43 <oerjan> and then you might accidentally kill it and get a curse.
16:05:49 <boily> albatrosses cause curses?
16:06:09 <oerjan> i thought that was common knowledge.
16:06:19 <oerjan> killing them, that is.
16:06:30 <b_jonas> I have a crazy idea. Suppose in a D&D-like universe, a very rich sorcerer wants to occasionally travel very fast between his two lairs, but hates teleportation. Maybe he wants to break the speed record for a challenge.
16:07:14 <oerjan> b_jonas: now i'm reminded of niven's puppeteers
16:07:34 <b_jonas> Could he build a long road made of alternating cells of four different materials, then shapechange cyclically to four different exotic monsters, each of which can reside in only one (or at most two) of the four materials, and get shunted to the next cell each time.
16:08:31 <b_jonas> I'm thinking the four materials could be: lava (or permanent magical fire), solid stone or earth, water (or water with acid), and a very narrow passage of air in a wall of force (or of iron or leveledgium);
16:09:06 <b_jonas> and the four forms are xorn (in stone), fire elemental (in lava), shark (in water, or acid-breathing shark in acid water), and eg. lizard (in the narrow passage).
16:09:29 <b_jonas> Each time he transforms, he'd get instantly shunted to the closest space the new form can reside, which would be the next cell.
16:09:47 <b_jonas> The narrow tunnel would need to be barred on the two ends by the same wall of force so that the lava and water can't get in of course.
16:10:08 <b_jonas> Or perhaps by small pieces of stone or something.
16:10:18 <oerjan> sounds eminently practical hth
16:10:50 <b_jonas> The shunting would deal lots of damage to the sorcerer, and though it could perhaps be reduced somewhat, it probably can't be prevented completely.
16:11:34 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, he'd have to be VERY rich to build such a road, because the cells have to be thicker than they are long, and the cells have to be long so he can traverse fast, because he travels about one cell per round or something not much than that.
16:11:39 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a known trick using turn order where you get a bunch of commoners to stand in a line, and delay their turns so that they all happen in sequence along the line
16:11:57 <ais523> then you get them to hand an object to each other in turn, and get it from one end to the other in just six seconds
16:12:14 <b_jonas> ais523: um, doesn't picking up the object take an action?
16:12:19 <b_jonas> they each take an action in sequence
16:12:23 <ais523> you can reduce the number of commoners required by getting them to jog (i.e. single-move) as one action, then hand the object over as the other
16:12:30 <ais523> that way you can space them 30 feet apart
16:12:48 <b_jonas> this is the D&D version of a bucket brigade
16:12:51 <ais523> I think the common name is the "commoner railgun"
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16:13:46 <b_jonas> gamemanj: this is repeatable each turn, so it could carry a lot of material on a line quickly
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16:14:03 <b_jonas> about one carrying capacity of the weakest commoner per round or so
16:14:27 <b_jonas> it doesn't even kill them, unlike how the damage kills the sorcerer
16:14:33 <ais523> also it gets an object from one place to another at arbitrarily high speeds
16:14:46 <ais523> because it completes the movement in six seconds regardless of the distance travelled
16:15:14 <b_jonas> Hmm, could the sorcerer get temporary invincibility, take all the damage, then quickly get healed to above zero from any amount of damage? If so, would this require very evil acts, like virgin sacrifices?
16:15:19 <gamemanj> what next, a commoner-based esoteric language?
16:15:31 <b_jonas> gamemanj: we call those cellular automata
16:15:46 <gamemanj> that would require more complex rules for the commoners...
16:16:04 <b_jonas> gamemanj: are you sure you're on the right channel if you ask questions like “what would be the point”?
16:16:55 <gamemanj> Cellular automata commoners... could get quite gory for some CAs (and patterns)
16:17:52 <ais523> b_jonas: if you're allowed to rely on typos in the manual, you can heal someone to 1hp from arbitrary HP values (including negative) via holding their head underwater for two rounds, then casting cure minor wounds on the third
16:17:58 <ais523> (assuming they don't hold their breath)
16:20:52 <ais523> the manual says "sets hp to 0" rather than "reduces hp to 0"
16:21:16 <b_jonas> and the water is conveniently in the channel, though he'd need some way to get healed up from unconsciousness afterwards, without a risk that his trusted lieutenant doesn't “forget” to heal him
16:22:25 <b_jonas> if he's temporarily indestructible to survive the damage anyway
16:22:38 <b_jonas> he can just wait as a human in water to get 0 hp, then quaff a potion
16:23:00 <b_jonas> though there's still the question of how he gets temporary invincibility
16:23:17 <b_jonas> and keep it while polymorphed
16:24:41 <ais523> I think you can combine a spell and feat to get immunity to HP death
16:24:44 <b_jonas> Plus the question of building the road.
16:24:46 <ais523> until the spell expires
16:24:56 <b_jonas> ais523: does that work even shapechanged?
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16:25:14 <b_jonas> even if it's the same person who casts both shapechange and that spell on himself?
16:26:04 <b_jonas> I'm worried because Szabó Magda: ''Tündér Lala'' features fairies that are specifically immortal, but are mortal if they magically shapechange to an ordinary animal such as a dog.
16:26:54 <b_jonas> Plus, even in nethack, many boss monsters lose most of their special properties while polymorphed.
16:27:48 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, is that a spell a wizard can cast? or divine-only?
16:28:21 <ais523> I can't remember the details
16:28:37 <ais523> one of my players pulled it off against me in a game where the players were encouraged to break the rules
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16:34:57 <b_jonas> I'm also worried about polymorph because such a thing could require you to be in the form of some particular unusual monster, such as a plant or something.
16:35:36 <b_jonas> Oh, and you probably want to get immune to dying from both nonpositive HP and from suffering too much damage in a turn.
16:36:16 <ais523> oh right, massive damage rule
16:36:25 <ais523> I think most groups pretend that one doesn't exist
16:36:28 <b_jonas> On the other hand, this whole thing is probably more difficult to pull off than a combo that just lets you increase your normal run or flight or swim speed without a cap.
16:36:49 <b_jonas> ais523: or that it exists only for damage from particular sources, such as critical hits from an attack.
16:37:02 <b_jonas> Or damage from the same one commander.
16:37:13 <ais523> b_jonas: that's a M:tG rule, not a D&D rule
16:38:28 <b_jonas> I said a D&D-like world. It could be a roguelike or something, though the narrow tunnel thing might not work in a roguelike that insists on every creature fitting the same size of square.
16:41:25 <APic> Reminds me of the Esolang „Befunge“
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16:45:15 <boily> APic: have you ever heard of our Lord fungot?
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16:45:47 <boily> (where's fungot when you need him?)
16:46:16 <int-e> he's swimming with the fnords
16:47:59 <APic> boily: Probably not yet
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16:51:13 <boily> APic: meanwhile, you're either Albanian, Bulgarian, Czech, Estonian, German, Icelandic, Macedonian, Romanian, Serbian, Slovak or Slovene.
16:51:20 <boily> probably German, population-wise.
16:53:08 <boily> is it generally sunny or rainy where you live?
17:03:07 <myname> boily: how do you come to this conclusion?
17:06:30 <boily> myname: quotation marks :D
17:07:04 <myname> i would never type them, though
17:08:11 <boily> «»“”‘’ are readily available on the layout I use, but I can't type the low marks.
17:09:04 <myname> i am using a software keyboard most of the time
17:09:27 <ais523> «»¢“”nµæßðđŋħĸł@łe¶ŧ←↓→øþ<>©‘’NºÆ§ÐªŊĦ&ŁΩŁE®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞ
17:09:37 <ais523> oh, /that/'s where ↑ went
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17:16:53 <ais523> boily: I assume you have a box of invisible characters that need sorting?
17:17:53 <\oren\> In the japanese ﾊﾝｶｸ mode,
17:18:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
17:22:04 <\oren\> I wonder what happens in the canadian keyboard mode
17:24:19 <boily> ais523: apparently I can type soft hyphens.
17:24:22 <\oren\> Ok that is weird. ? -> É, 'a -> à, |\ -> <>, [a -> â
17:24:36 <ais523> boily: what's the keybind?
17:24:55 <boily> \oren\: how come is it weird? it's the layout I use.
17:25:16 <boily> ais523: ISO level 5 + Shift + /.
17:25:21 <\oren\> It's weird because it doesn't match the keytop labels
17:25:38 <\oren\> I don't even know how it got installed
17:25:49 <ais523> boily: apparently I don't have the same keyboard layout as you
17:26:00 <ais523> either that or AltGr does something different from ISO level 5
17:26:10 <boily> AltGr is level 3 I think?
17:27:52 <boily> \oren\: there are two layouts in use in Québec: Canadien Français and Canadien Multilingue. both have éÉ instead of /?, but they differ mainly on the dead keys and pre-composed accented letters.
17:28:31 <\oren\> I have US and canadian multilunual
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17:29:02 <\oren\> And then I have 5 different Japanese modes
17:29:11 <b_jonas> boily: what? I type “„”‘’»« too
17:29:51 <b_jonas> I added them to my keyboard layout because I need them often
17:30:47 <b_jonas> I should also add à and the other non-obscure French accented characters too, probably to capslock-control-letters if my keyboard can handle capslock-control-shift-letter together.
17:30:51 <\oren\> In hankaku katakana mode､ I can type english by starting with a cpaital letter
17:31:14 <b_jonas> I know some keyboards can't handle capslock-shift-backtick but mine is better.
17:31:23 <boily> b_jonas: I remapped Caps to Escape. much more confortable for vim sessions.
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17:32:03 <\oren\> I have lots of symbols available thru my IME ,､，”“゛″〝＂〟
17:32:18 <myname> https://github.com/alevchuk/vim-clutch
17:32:21 <boily> \oren\: Let'sせえ。。。Nope.Itをrks、利ghtウンチLityペ亜S波C絵。NotQ浮いて失せ付ぇ、意F酔う湾Tmyおぴにおん。
17:33:07 <\oren\> You need to be in hankaku katakana mode I think.
17:33:14 <boily> \oren\: I like entering きごう, then mashing the space bar to get all kinds of funky Unicode tidbits.
17:34:01 <boily> myname: bwah ah ah!
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17:34:57 <b_jonas> plus there's some other characters I should add too
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17:37:02 <int-e> I forget why I have bindings for these
17:37:05 <\oren\> Ohhh characters that aren't in my fon!?!?!
17:37:22 <HackEgo> U+2983 LEFT WHITE CURLY BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 a6 83 UTF-16BE: 2983 Decimal: ⦃ \ ⦃ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+27E6 MATHEMATICAL LEFT WHITE SQUARE BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 9f a6 UTF-16BE: 27e6 Decimal: ⟦ \ ⟦ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
17:37:40 <HackEgo> U+2983 LEFT WHITE CURLY BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 a6 83 UTF-16BE: 2983 Decimal: ⦃ \ ⦃ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+2987 Z NOTATION LEFT IMAGE BRACKET \ UTF-8: e2 a6 87 UTF-16BE: 2987 Decimal: ⦇ \ ⦇ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Charac
17:38:58 <\oren\> Eventually I plan to move my prject off fontstruct so I can add Chinese characters. (Fontstruct doesn't support Chinese)
17:38:58 <b_jonas> probably àèìòù to capslock-control-aeiou, âêîôû to capslock-control-áéíóú (that's easy to remember), plus äëïçœæßåø somewhere
17:39:22 <b_jonas> and the uppercase versions of all but eszett to capslock-control-shift same letter
17:40:08 <boily> b_jonas: shouldn't it be easier to put ^, ¨ and ` on a dead key?
17:40:11 <b_jonas> no, perhaps the circumfletted letters not on those places
17:40:24 <\oren\> there is a capital eszett
17:40:43 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, but it's not something I need frequently. there's also a low-single-9 quotation mark
17:40:56 * boily waves his magical mapole around and try to zombify b_jonas' keyboard
17:41:06 <b_jonas> and single > and < quotation marks
17:41:10 <b_jonas> yet I don't have those in my mapping
17:43:33 <\oren\> why not have a shift key you can hold down, type "o and get ö
17:44:07 <\oren\> in other words a key that merges all the characters you type until you release it
17:44:34 <b_jonas> \oren\: nope, that could trigger during normal typing,
17:44:42 <b_jonas> and also is hard to type because " requires holding down shift
17:44:56 <boily> ö is Shift + ¨, release, then o.
17:44:58 <\oren\> well then use some other key
17:45:18 <b_jonas> if I don't release a key before I press the next key, I want both of them to register. this isn't a calculator, it's a real computer keyboard where I want to type fast.
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17:45:35 <\oren\> like maybe that stupid menu button windows keyboards have?
17:45:39 <b_jonas> only the modifier keys should work otherwise
17:46:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: those could work, but I'm using caps-lock as a fourth modifier anyway, and I don't want to add a fifth, at least not for typing (as opposed to eg. window manager shortcuts)
17:46:49 <b_jonas> Plus I don't like those keys, because I like normal 101-key AT keyboards that don't have it, and want to be compatible with them.
17:50:41 <\oren\> what is that character for
17:51:30 <b_jonas> \oren\: I believe it's for annotating ancient Chinese text for study by ancient Japanese to show the word order it would be read if it had Japanese grammar.
17:52:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: let me find a reference
17:53:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furigana#Kunten
17:54:49 <b_jonas> or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kanbun
17:55:49 <\oren\> holy crap. those unicode guys... I don't even...
17:56:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: that might be a different character though. they weren't circled, and somehow I don't think Japanese people would circle a kanji
17:56:28 <b_jonas> so it might be for some different thing
17:56:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: ㊤ _is_ a redirect to Kanbun in en.wikipedia though
17:57:32 <b_jonas> \oren\: see https://ja.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E3%86%96
17:58:11 <b_jonas> \oren\: wiktionary documents a lot of obscure kanji
18:03:39 <\oren\> https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%9B%B2%E3%81%BF%E6%96%87%E5%AD%97
18:07:02 <\oren\> Apparently circled letters are used for elements, and the kanji are used for bases and positions in baseball
18:08:57 <\oren\> 〇ｃis apparently "cupper"
18:09:06 <\oren\> I think they mean copper
18:10:28 <\oren\> and ㊥ is midfielder or whatever
18:11:47 <\oren\> hm oh wait they use SQUARES for the baseball stuff
18:12:01 <\oren\> which requires the astral plane
18:28:48 <\oren\> anyway, anybody know a good bitmap font editor?
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18:46:22 <\oren\> Ohhhh!!! If you convert a ttf to bdf with fontforge, then open the bdf, fontforge's glyph editor is suddently in a "bitmap mode"!
18:46:41 <\oren\> Ok well fuck fontstruct then
18:48:15 <\oren\> Now I can start adding wide characters and Chinese! hehehehehehe
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19:24:44 <\oren\> How many ideographs are there in the main CJK block?
19:26:09 <\oren\> 20,950. holy fucking shit that would take a long time
19:26:29 <\oren\> I'll start with just the Joyo kanji
19:26:54 <\oren\> and katakana and hiragana
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19:42:05 <Vorpal> \oren\, designing a font?
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19:47:14 <\oren\> Ok now this is a problem. I can convert ttf to a bdf, but I can't seem to convert back to a tff
19:48:35 <zzo38> Why do you want to convert it back to a TTF format?
19:50:13 <zzo38> See if you can install bitmap fonts on your computer though
19:50:36 <zzo38> Unless you need to print, they should be good enough for most purposes
19:51:26 <\oren\> windows only supports ttf
19:51:45 <zzo38> I think Windows supports bitmap fonts
19:51:58 <zzo38> (Although using a different format than UNIX)
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19:54:01 <\oren\> No matter what I do, fontforge's saved ttf file is "not a valid font file" according to windows
19:55:30 <zzo38> See if it has Windows bitmap font format. If not, you could also try OpenType if it has it; Windows supports that too, I think
19:55:54 <boily> windows switched to OTF quite a while ago for their standard fonts.
19:57:25 <\oren\> otf isn't working, the generated font shows all blank glyphs
19:58:04 <zzo38> Try Windows bitmap font format (I think it is .FON but I am not sure)
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20:04:39 <\oren\> Oh i see, fontforge doesn't have the ability to trace a bitmap into a vector font at all.
20:06:54 <zzo38> O so that is why it does not work. You must use an external program (unless it supports Windows bitmap font formats)
20:07:54 <S1> you must be blind thenü
20:07:55 <fizzie> \oren\: I think it had some integration to some external tool.
20:08:16 <fizzie> Also I made a .ttf out of a bitmap font somehow.
20:08:27 <S1> hppavilion[1]: First visit two years ago, last visit on friday ;) I am hkgit03 sometimes.
20:08:33 <hppavilion[1]> S1: It's possible we're in incompatible timezones uasually
20:09:19 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Don't you at least remember me as hkgit03? I was here quite often this week.
20:09:55 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Don't remember an hkgit03. Probably just time zone issues
20:10:06 <hppavilion[1]> You know what'd make it easier to learn Lambda Calculus and the SKI Combinator Calculus?
20:10:58 <S1> hppavilion[1]: No, you were here too, I know that.
20:11:04 <fizzie> Looks like I just wrote a piece of Perl to generate a .svg font out of the bitmaps, and then used some tool on that.
20:11:25 <hppavilion[1]> That way, you wouldn't have to dive into a complex, foriegn system immediately. You could just start with the basics.
20:11:40 <zzo38> Can you add my Robot find kitten implementation into the list?
20:12:16 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to help me figure out a Lambda Arithmetic?
20:12:53 <fizzie> zzo38: You'll need to contact rfk@robotfindskitten.org for that, I don't have anything to do with the website.
20:13:50 <fizzie> (I'm only responsible for the zem.fi/rfk86 site.)
20:16:31 <zzo38> I don't have email
20:17:53 <fizzie> Well, they allegedly have an office in Los Angeles, if that helps.
20:18:05 <fizzie> Other than that, I don't know of any ways to contact them.
20:18:12 <zzo38> I don't live in Los Angeles
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20:19:35 <hppavilion[1]> I just found out zzo38 doesn't have email and now every alarm in my head is simultaneously going off
20:21:21 <hppavilion[1]> λ-Arithmetic", which is basically supposed to make is easier to learn the λ-Calculus by starting with something everyone knows.
20:21:39 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, following the same path you took to learn normal math.
20:23:14 <myname> it's pretty easy, really
20:23:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I know, I just don't have the vocabulary and didn't think to look things up last time
20:23:53 <myname> there are like two relevant rules in untyped lambda cslculus
20:24:17 <myname> just do something with it
20:24:22 <hppavilion[1]> I might also invent Kleene Arithmetic, which is basically just simplified Regex
20:24:33 <myname> i.e. write a map function for lists in lambda calculus
20:24:51 <hppavilion[1]> The λ-calculus page on Esolangs needs some serious cleaning
20:25:48 <S1> The page on wikipedia is good iirc
20:28:04 <myname> cause that would mean n log n is 1
20:28:34 <hppavilion[1]> I think of log as a binary operation, not a set of functions that you reference with a subscript
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20:28:52 <hppavilion[1]> Though if I were to think of it that way, I'd prefer log[b](n), as that's more pythony
20:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> I just spent 5-10 minutes waiting for a lecture on λ-calculus to laod
20:29:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44284 * SuperJedi224 * (+3548) Created page with "'''Math++''' is an esoteric programming language by SuperJedi224, defined by [http://pastebin.com/mnxZk1cz this java implementation.] All '''Math++''' variables are 64-bit IE..."
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20:31:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44285&oldid=44284 * SuperJedi224 * (+287)
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20:32:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44286&oldid=44285 * SuperJedi224 * (+64) /* Sample Programs */
20:32:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44287&oldid=44286 * SuperJedi224 * (+4) /* Sample Programs */
20:34:12 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], 5-10 minutes? From what service is that?
20:34:28 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Alaska Internet. And I think it was a big document
20:34:49 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], ah. I was about to ask if you were on ISS or something yeah
20:34:52 <Vorpal> I guess that explains it
20:34:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Alaska Internet isn't the name of the service, "Alaska" is just a descriptor of what kind of Internet it is)
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20:35:23 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I'm on Swedish internet, so that just seemed plain wrong to me
20:35:28 -!- J_Arcane_ has changed nick to J_Arcane.
20:35:42 <hppavilion[1]> (The service I'm using is GCI, which is the fastest available internet in the state (or at least in Anchorage). I used to have a 1mb/s connection, but we switched to the one other available service.)
20:36:06 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], so now you have how much instead?
20:36:15 <hppavilion[1]> (GCI is actually evil. They only deliver ~1/2 the speed they promise, but that speed is 8x better than the alternative)
20:36:19 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I have 250 down, 10 up
20:36:37 <Vorpal> And I actually get pretty close to that
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20:36:53 <\oren\> GRR I can't find an option to just use the pixels' outlines instead of trying to smooth it
20:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just waiting for the day when Free High-speed WiFi is declared a basic human right
20:37:51 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I get about 240 mbit/s down
20:37:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44288&oldid=43888 * SuperJedi224 * (+13)
20:38:01 <Vorpal> so that seems reasonable
20:38:32 <fizzie> The UK "fibre" (optical to some point, but generally VDSL for the last bit, at least in older places) nominal speeds are pretty weird, it's either 38/9.5 (down/up), or 76/19.
20:38:33 <Vorpal> the 10 mbit/s up and getting about 8 mbit/s up actually is a bit more annoying
20:38:40 <Vorpal> it takes forever to upload any large file
20:38:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, yes those are weird
20:39:05 <fizzie> I've occasionally wondered whether they actually configure it 40/10 and 80/20, and just use a bit lower figures to avoid the usual "nobody actually gets the nominal speed" issues.
20:39:06 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], well that is good at least
20:39:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44289&oldid=44287 * SuperJedi224 * (+52) /* Sample Programs */
20:39:44 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], shouldn't be that bad then
20:39:51 <fizzie> Still, the "standard" Finnish VDSL (download) speeds were 10, 50 and 100, so I'm not sure why they went with 40/80 here.
20:39:57 <hppavilion[1]> Really only GitHub and the lightweight uploading associated with fora usage and such
20:40:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44290&oldid=44289 * SuperJedi224 * (+5) /* Using the Map */
20:40:47 <zzo38> I used to have email with Free Geek but now they have disabled the ability to login with SSH so now I cannot access it anymore (I don't know if possibly my account is deleted too)
20:41:20 <fizzie> Oh, the 80/20 hypothesis seems to be true: the VDSL2 modem reports nominal payload rates of 79999/19999 kbps.
20:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> (I am, but only to the extent of browser extensions, firefox, and Duck Duck Go)
20:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Wait, don't you have your own website? Couldn't you set up an SMTP server on that?
20:43:46 <fizzie> If you're not interested in answers, you could send email even without that.
20:43:48 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], that is what I do, run SMTP + IMAP I mean
20:44:18 <Vorpal> Still have a gmail, but I'm fazing it out
20:44:39 <zzo38> I could run my own SMTP server and I have done that occasionally before, mainly in order to receive message only sometimes and then cancel the daemon after message is received, therefore no spam messages are possible
20:45:25 <zzo38> When I try to send message to other SMTP server they tell me that it is graylisted and won't sent
20:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Fair enough. You could, of course, use 10-minute-mail to get RFK over to the people you're getting it to
20:45:39 <Vorpal> zzo38, that was one way I guess. I create a new alias for each web site I register with, that way I can trace who I started getting spam via and just delete that alias
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20:45:53 <fizzie> You can get around graylisting by just retrying, without having to do anything special.
20:46:15 <zzo38> fizzie: I did read the instructions and that is what it says, so I did try that, but it did not seem to work.
20:46:16 <fizzie> Well, I mean, that's what graylisting is.
20:46:28 <int-e> it's not "getting around" anything, it's how greylisting is supposed to work
20:46:44 <Vorpal> how does gray listing work?
20:46:53 <Vorpal> And why would you be hit by it?
20:46:58 <fizzie> I just meant there's no reason to have a server do it, it should be quite doable manually.
20:47:14 <int-e> Vorpal: it just reports a temporary delivery failure to the submitting server; the server is supposed to try again later
20:47:17 <fizzie> Some sites graylist everything, so just not having sent them any mail before could be a sufficient reason.
20:47:42 <int-e> Vorpal: the idea is that most spammers don't actually run servers; they just dump their payload and move on.
20:47:46 <Vorpal> int-e, seems it would slow down mail delivery, which could be annoying
20:48:01 <fizzie> Vorpal: Only for the first message from an unknown sending server.
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20:48:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: (But it does introduce delays, that can be sometimes -- but rarely -- long.)
20:48:45 <S1> By VM you mean?
20:49:21 <zzo38> Even if I set up SMTP server and then disable some names when they are receive it, can still cause spam message to be received, they will still send it because the server is still reachable. You have to disable the SMTP server entirely to stop receiving spam messages
20:49:28 <S1> Call them interpreters
20:50:12 <Vorpal> fizzie, hm how does one set up for example postfix to do gray listing I wonder
20:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> S1: But it runs bytecode, so it's closer to a VM than a traditional interpreter (like the python interpreter)
20:50:34 <hppavilion[1]> It is, technically, an interpreter though. Then again, so is a computer.
20:50:38 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], um. Python runs byte code
20:50:50 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], what do you think the .pyc files are?
20:50:53 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Then you have to write a specification for bytecode first. Where is that?
20:50:55 <fizzie> Vorpal: postfwd + postgrey is I think a relatively common combination -- both are tools external to Postfix.
20:51:23 <hppavilion[1]> S1: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/tree/master/docs
20:51:33 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], the only pure interpreter I can think of atm is probably bash. Perl also does byte code internally for example iirc
20:51:47 <Vorpal> Fairly certain ruby does too
20:51:53 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: WalScript (my own language) is a pure interpreter
20:52:12 <hppavilion[1]> There's actually more than one VM gathered into the same Repo. They all have different properties for different ideas
20:52:16 <S1> I don't get it
20:52:25 <S1> I won't dig through code now
20:52:29 <fizzie> Vorpal: (First one is for configuring rules more flexibly than standard Postfix allows, and the second one is a greylisting tool. I don't think there's any reason why postgrey alone wouldn't suffice.)
20:52:58 <Vorpal> fizzie, sounds annoying to configure though
20:53:01 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Here's the documentation for the instructions: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/docs/IndeterminantVM/setdocs.txt
20:53:25 <hppavilion[1]> Though it might be confusing if you don't read this first: https://github.com/ZodiacWorkingGroup/TaurusVM/blob/master/docs/IndeterminantVM/fileformat.md
20:53:25 <S1> Looks like BANCStar
20:53:54 <hppavilion[1]> S1: It does, because BANCStar is practically a machine language
20:54:07 <S1> What does ISA mean in this context?
20:54:23 <hppavilion[1]> You aren't meant to write TaurusVM codes directly, you write assembly and the (to-be-developed) Assembler converts it to TaurusVM
20:54:33 <fizzie> Vorpal: A little, yes. They both hook up to the Postfix "policy server" mechanism, and I think postgrey's pretty good with working out-of-the-box (and included in Debian repositories). I ran it as a test, and it seemed to work, but I get so little mail at my own domain, it didn't seem worth it.
20:55:15 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think greylisting works better on a server that receives large volumes of email, anyway, because then you'll have the greylisting decisions for the majority of sending mail servers "normal people" use cached all the time.
20:55:50 <S1> I see. It's quite an easy spec.
20:57:10 <fizzie> Vorpal: The mail forwarding service I use does a DNS blacklist check and then graylists all mail that comes from blacklisted addresses; that seems like a pretty good combination to not avoid the greylisting delays, and still survive from blacklist mistakes.
20:57:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, mail forwarding? I thought you ran your own?
20:57:59 <S1> hppavilion[1]: So you're converting several esolangs into your bytecode and then have that one VM? Cause you said "semi-esoteric VMs" (plural)
20:58:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: I run my own for zem.fi, but that's not my "real" email address.
20:58:31 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Basically, I have more than one VM (each with its own name) that are all under the umbrella of TaurusVM.
20:59:04 <hppavilion[1]> A .taurus file (which is a TaurusVM executable) begins with a null-terminated ID string that tells the main executer which "sub-VM" the file uses
20:59:17 <S1> hppavilion[1]: So what are those other VMs doing? Translating esolangs into bytecode which then is interpreted by TaurusVM?
20:59:19 <hppavilion[1]> The main executer then passes the rest of the file to that executer
20:59:33 <S1> Oh, Sub-VM. What the heck
20:59:36 <hppavilion[1]> S1: I'm not translating Esolangs into Bytecode (well, I can)
20:59:46 <hppavilion[1]> "Sub-VM" is just a term because it's weird the way I did it
20:59:56 <hppavilion[1]> ThueVM, GreekVM, and IndeterminantVM are all different VMs
20:59:59 <S1> hppavilion[1]: What is that bytecode spec for then?
21:00:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: The "real" one is an for an email forwarding service from a Finnish "internet activists" organization, pointed at whatever ISP mailbox seems to be handy. Ridiculously enough, I've still got it pointed at our Finnish ISP's email servers, because the Internet connection there is part of the apartment maintenance fees now, and we still own the place in Finland.
21:00:57 <S1> hppavilion[1]: And what does get translated into that bytecode? You just said you're not translating esolangs. So what then?
21:01:06 <fizzie> Actually, I should probably check the generated-by-default mailbox at the UK ISP some day. I'm sure there's some random promotional mail from the ISP or something in there.
21:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: Well, the thing that gets translated into Bytecode is an assembly language. Which is, truth be told, a bit of an esolang.
21:02:07 <S1> And what does all that have to do with esolangs?
21:02:11 <hppavilion[1]> An Esolang /can/ be translated into Assembly (or directly to a TVM VM), but that's not the main goal of this project
21:02:31 <S1> written in what?
21:03:04 <S1> The way you explain all this sure is esoteric, alright
21:04:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to compose in a separate document then send it here.
21:04:08 <S1> So you're translating an asm lang into bytecode which then is run by one of several sub-VMs...
21:04:14 <S1> That sounds terrific, thx
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21:07:15 <hppavilion[1]> TaurusVM is not actually a single VM (virtual machine). It is a collection of Semi-Esoteric virtual machines, each of which runs bytecode programs.
21:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> The main VM under TVM (TaurusVM) is called "IndeterminantVM", and uses variable-length arguments through a process that need not be explained here.
21:07:16 <hppavilion[1]> A TaurusVM executable (.taurus, specifically. .tau is different) is composed of an ID string (a null-terminated string explaining to the main executer which VM to use) followed by a flat binary.
21:07:41 <hppavilion[1]> S1: I can't tell if "That sounds terrific, thx" is sarcasm.
21:08:40 <S1> Not really, no. A composed separate document would be more lovely than some bad explanation
21:09:03 <S1> (though the last three lines of yours where more understandable than before)
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21:12:13 <Vorpal> fizzie, any idea how hard/easy it would be to set up saned and cups for sharing a multi function printer from a RPi?
21:12:30 <FreeFull> bf\0++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:12:37 <Vorpal> fizzie, for some reason this seems like the kind of thing you would do
21:14:12 <S1> FreeFull: 8
21:14:43 <FreeFull> `bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:14:58 <S1> looks similar
21:15:20 <S1> Oh, I counted ten too few, I think
21:15:34 <S1> `bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
21:16:39 <zzo38> Is it possible to make the UNIX printer driver to just send the printout to a directory on the HTTP server in an encrypted format, and to be able to receive it with a DOS program and send it to the printer?
21:16:57 <S1> zzo38: Yes.
21:17:14 <Vorpal> zzo38, this seems like a silly thing to do, but knowing you you have a weird setup that requires this. And yes, probably
21:17:44 <Vorpal> print to PDF and then get it over smbfs, (by DOS I assume you actually mean Windows)
21:17:59 <zzo38> No, I mean DOS and not Windows. Also, I want PCL and not PDF
21:18:01 <Vorpal> then presumably print it again on Windows
21:18:18 <zzo38> (I can already generate PCL though)
21:18:25 <zzo38> (And the printer accepts PCL)
21:18:27 <S1> I'd really like to see zzo38's setup
21:18:57 <zzo38> How do you program it to do that so that the lp program will store the print jobs it receives by stdin into there and then treat it like normal print jobs otherwise except not send to printer?
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21:23:31 <hppavilion[1]> S1: There. The README is up-to-date and documents languages that will run on it.
21:23:52 <S1> hppavilion[1]: link again pls
21:24:22 <\oren\> Ugh. I still can't generate a ttf that windows thinks is valid
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21:27:57 <S1> I still don't get why several VMs are necessary but I guess questioning specs is pointless in the esolang community
21:29:16 <tswett> Are we typing English into Japanese IMEs?
21:29:43 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Multiple VMs are not necessary, but it's more fun to make more than one
21:29:50 <S1> more esoteric
21:30:11 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't put them all together into a single VM, as some have features that conflict with othres
21:30:13 <tswett> 湯p、ティspろづせs染pれtty院テレs珍gレスltsイfイs田rtウィthあぉゑr嘉瀬ぇってｒ。
21:30:22 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Which are those features?
21:30:38 <tswett> If I start with an uppercase letter, on the other hand, everything is fine.
21:30:45 <zzo38> I made up the VM too because I wanted to make some game program with a sufficiently simple VM that does not require any proprietary software, therefore I dod
21:30:54 <hppavilion[1]> S1: For example, all the registry manipulation in IndeterminantVM would collide with ThueVM's stringiness
21:31:26 <hppavilion[1]> He did. It was pretty good. I don't understand it.
21:31:34 <S1> How exactly is registry defined here?
21:31:37 <boily> tswett: stランゲly、手ぇれ背絵ms戸部亜ぉT御Fカタカナ追うT付Tby酔うRIME.
21:31:56 <tswett> I just typed "hagane" and it suggested that completion.
21:32:16 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Registries are 64-bit... things that store integers, floating point, characters, or whatever else you think up
21:32:20 <tswett> You do, of course, know what 鋼の錬金術師 means.
21:32:20 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: That implementation may not; it would be possible to make a different implementation for Windows though
21:32:33 <boily> tswett: not at all. google translating it.
21:32:57 <S1> hppavilion[1]: Program symbols in general, I presume
21:33:07 <tswett> NB: it gives you the English title instead of a literal translation of the Japanese title.
21:33:08 <zzo38> I made the feat for Dungeons&Dragons game it requires Open Minded, but taking this new feat and permanently losing a spell slot to earn more skill points. How many skill points would be the fair amount (in exchange for a feat and spell slot)? Currently I wrote 6 + slot level.
21:33:15 <hppavilion[1]> I just see a box with 4 zeroes. My font doesn't support it xD
21:33:18 <zzo38> (Open Minded gives you 5 skill points)
21:34:15 <S1> hppavilion[1]: What you call registries seem to be... containers for program symbols
21:34:25 <S1> hppavilion[1]: like variables, functions, constants
21:34:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a python programmer, so I don't understand low-level stuff very well xD
21:35:04 <zzo38> Then you should learn the low-level stuff too
21:35:39 <S1> Knowing about low-level stuff can save you from making things too complicated once in a while
21:38:00 <S1> Gotta go. I have a very important thing to finish until months end. See ya
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21:38:25 <zzo38> Do you know how to play a Dungeons&Dragons game?
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21:39:43 <hppavilion[1]> Should I add a function to dump the contents of TaurusVM to a file?
21:40:17 <zzo38> If you find it useful for debugging or to make save file then you might do so
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21:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> I could, in theory, make a DUMP and a RETRIEVE instruction, which dump the VM's content to a file and get it from the file, respectively
22:01:07 <hppavilion[1]> I'm writing example programs for Thube ("TOO-bee")
22:02:25 <\oren\> First of all, boily was right, ttf doesn't work well anymore
22:03:12 <\oren\> Second, I have to enlarge the font to 320 pixels tall, THEN vectorize it
22:03:20 <\oren\> that kkeps it pixelated
22:05:00 <\oren\> But this process is still much faster than the Flash-web-app -> fonforge to correct errors process
22:05:21 <boily> happy to kkep your font working!
22:05:32 -!- boily has quit (Quit: DECONSTRUCTOR CHICKEN).
22:06:08 <\oren\> So now I can add any alphabet in unicode to my font, rather than just those supported by a web app from 2006
22:06:46 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
22:08:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44291&oldid=44233 * Hppavilion1 * (+1298) Examples
22:09:43 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i forgot to tell you that there's already a language called "Thubi", with the exact same pronunciation.
22:09:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44292&oldid=44291 * Hppavilion1 * (+6) Fixed code (forgot some spaces)
22:11:36 <\oren\> "This is the article for the programming language Thubi. Not to be confused with the programming language Thubi."
22:13:00 <oerjan> \oren\: not same spelling hth
22:15:23 <oerjan> does Thube involve tubes twh and possibly give a bilingual pun
22:16:42 -!- mauris has joined.
22:17:35 <oerjan> (Thue is a norwegian surname with pretentious Th spelling; tube is a word in norwegian and english, although the meanings are slightly different but overlapping.)
22:18:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44293&oldid=44292 * Orenwatson * (+34) biguated it
22:18:35 <oerjan> the norwegian word means mostly a container, not the other english meanings. i guess it was borrowed.
22:19:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44294&oldid=44293 * Orenwatson * (+2) corrected it
22:19:14 <oerjan> given it was patented in the US
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22:19:48 <tswett> Hmm. The spec for Thubi isn't very well written.
22:19:52 <\oren\> when you correct something incorrectly, you have rrected it
22:20:32 <\oren\> rrected comes from Latin rrectare, whence also rekt comes.
22:22:07 <\oren\> related by indo-european roots to the germanic English word "wreck"
22:22:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44295&oldid=44294 * Hppavilion1 * (+1375) Badly-done Syntax documentation (next step: Libraries)
22:24:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44296&oldid=44295 * Hppavilion1 * (+70) Example of subprograms
22:28:10 <\oren\> all I did was add a biguation
22:29:06 <tswett> If you had added it to the other page, it would have been a beguation.
22:29:12 <tswett> Such hypothetical begotry.
22:29:24 <oerjan> look what you've begotten
22:29:40 <tswett> Yes, I haven't forgotten.
22:29:47 <\oren\> I haven't begat anyone (uh, hopefully, anyway)
22:30:44 <oerjan> bigots beget bogus bogeymen
22:31:07 <tswett> Let's let bygones be bygones, and begone.
22:32:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44297&oldid=44296 * Hppavilion1 * (+616) Three libraries (stdio, fileio, socket)
22:34:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44298&oldid=44297 * Hppavilion1 * (+7) oerjan should probably read this.
22:36:36 <oerjan> except those biguation things should normally be at the top
22:37:54 <oerjan> i'll do it and get the formatting right
22:38:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44299&oldid=44298 * Oerjan * (+5) fmt, placement
22:41:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44300 * Hppavilion1 * (+50) Created Template
22:41:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44301&oldid=44299 * Hppavilion1 * (-18) Made biguation template
22:42:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44302&oldid=44300 * Hppavilion1 * (+5) Fixed template
22:42:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44303&oldid=44302 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Still fixing it
22:43:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44304&oldid=44303 * Hppavilion1 * (-4) Removed possibly extraneous spaces
22:44:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[StackStacks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44305&oldid=41842 * Oerjan * (+5) fmt, placement
22:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I made your thing at the top into a template
22:45:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44306 * Hppavilion1 * (+50) Created Template
22:46:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44307&oldid=44306 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Corrected bold to italics
22:46:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Thube]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44308&oldid=44301 * Hppavilion1 * (+20) Derivative template
22:47:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44309&oldid=44307 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Fixed the link
22:48:01 <oerjan> you forgot periods hth
22:48:53 <oerjan> i'm not sure about that Derivative template.
22:49:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Redcode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44310&oldid=39363 * 68.255.6.120 * (+1925)
22:51:02 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Is it possible to make a template content conditional on whether a certain argument is passed to it?
22:52:26 <hppavilion[1]> So I could make it so if an argument 2 is given to the Derivative template, it says "This language is a derivative of [[{{{1}}}]] that {{{2}}}." and if it doesn't, it just says "This language is a derivative of [[{{{1}}}]]"?
22:52:30 <oerjan> probably, but i don't know that much templates
22:52:38 <zzo38> I think MediaWiki supports such thing
22:52:49 <oerjan> ais523: you probably know
22:53:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Redcode]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44311&oldid=44310 * 68.255.6.120 * (+1)
22:53:42 <ais523> oerjan: let me read scrollback
22:53:53 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: the normal way to do that is with #if but it isn't implemented
22:53:55 <ais523> there is an eso way too
22:54:00 <\oren\> Ooh, i'mma add Canadian Sylabic
22:54:01 * oerjan seems to be built upside down today: nose runs, feet smell
22:54:21 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: look at the history of template:qif on Wikipedia (although note that you can't use that code directly because copyright)
22:55:28 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: basically, the upshot is a) it's possible, b) it's not /supposed/ to be possible without the ParserFunctions extension, but c) MediaWiki has a higher computational class than most people realies
22:55:48 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll just leave the Derivative Template as-is
22:56:07 <ais523> oh, we have ParserFunctions installed
22:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it really needs to explain what it does. That's what the immediately following paragraph is for xD
22:56:17 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: use #if:, then
22:56:29 <ais523> {{#if:|a|b}} is equivalent to b, {{#if:anything|a|b}} is equivalent to a
22:56:36 <ais523> that should be enough information to make the template you want
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22:57:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44312&oldid=44309 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Added a period
22:58:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:ToBeConfused]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44313&oldid=44304 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) Added a period
23:03:37 <hppavilion[1]> I just realized that as far as I've been told, I have never encountered a girl on this channel
23:07:50 <oerjan> it has happened. i think there are at least two here now.
23:08:57 <oerjan> there might be more who choose not to publicize it.
23:09:29 <oerjan> they are still most likely a small fraction here.
23:09:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Sinatra]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44314 * Hppavilion1 * (+118) Marked account as dead
23:11:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Virgolang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44315 * Hppavilion1 * (+207) To IRC!
23:12:15 <mauris> ehhhhh the "there are no girls on the internet" mantra is pretty gross and 4channy
23:13:26 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: All men on the internet are men. All women on the internet are men. All little girls on the internet are FBI agents. Male ones.
23:13:29 <mauris> i never really did "figure it out" as they say, like there is very blatant evidence to the contrary, no matter how narrow you take "the internet"
23:14:22 <oerjan> yay i've managed to completely miss the existence of 8chan
23:14:35 <pikhq> The main thing is, a lot of these spaces are rather uncomfortable for women (could go into it but suffice it to say: things conspire to make them feel unwelcome) so not many are here and those who are, don't like advertizing it much.
23:14:49 <pikhq> I don't think that's an issue *here in particular*, but it happens on IRC, sadly.
23:15:06 <mauris> i hear they took 4chan's awful mindset and made it even more terrible & sexist & racist, congratulations 8chan
23:16:16 <tswett> I think I'd say "there are no girls on the Internet" generally isn't a good thing to say.
23:16:46 <oerjan> mauris: yo that "yoneda lemma" method for proving types equivalent was pretty neat
23:17:07 <\oren\> There are a lot of girls on Facebook
23:17:16 <tswett> Like, it's probably not a huge deal.
23:17:17 <pikhq> I believe the amount of use is approx. equal, but some communities on the Internet are exceptionally gendered.
23:17:30 <oerjan> although i have a vague feeling that it may be a bit under the carpet to actually _prove_ it...
23:18:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44316&oldid=44290 * SuperJedi224 * (+114)
23:19:33 <oerjan> maybe i should shut up until i've actually seen the proof (in haskell context)
23:21:08 <mauris> for the record, if it's the thing i asked on SO, it was limited to "proving a type is isomorphic to () if you Yoneda it around a billion times"
23:21:57 <mauris> to show that there's only one value in it. but it probably extends to other type equivalences
23:23:16 <oerjan> mauris: well it's also pretty easy to use it to show e.g. forall a. a -> a -> a ~ Bool, i think
23:25:27 <oerjan> first, that's equivalent to forall a. (Bool -> a) -> a
23:27:04 <oerjan> hm in fact, you get forall a. a -> a -> f a ~ f Bool
23:31:58 <zzo38> Do you know answer of my question relating to the Dungeons&Dragons game?
23:32:23 <oerjan> i think the part of the lemma i feel awkward about is showing that the map from f b to forall a. (b -> a) -> f a is onto.
23:33:16 <oerjan> it seems like it would require a deeper result about the parametricity of f
23:34:23 <zzo38> Extra Slot is another feat though
23:37:30 <zzo38> I know a few things about Yoneda lemma, not a lot
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00:34:02 <hppavilion[1]> Major change #1 in Zodiac Lisp: AFAICT, the function call cannot be another SExp. In LIZP (or whatever I call it), this will be possible:
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00:41:24 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps an adjective called "fat" in a language that makes you deal with memory?
00:42:40 <hppavilion[1]> person = class(){__init__ = function(object self, short age){short self.age = age}}
00:42:48 <izabera> i'm unconfortable with - taking more than two arguments
00:43:14 <hppavilion[1]> But if you create "person" with the "fat" descriptor, then the "short"s become "long"s
00:47:31 <izabera> so (<< 16 2 3) is like (16 << 2) << 3 in c?
00:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, that's the only interpretation I can think of
00:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I'm trying to make The λ-Calculus easier to understand by inventing λ-Arithmetic, for people to start with. It's part of the ZWG's "Elementary School CS" project. Do you have any ideas?
00:54:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's a group I started attempting to make the products of a tendency towards Esolangs useful and more widespread
00:55:16 <izabera> that would make them less eso-, wouldn't it?
00:55:29 <hppavilion[1]> For example, actual, useful programming languages that are nothing like what normal programming languages are
00:55:40 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Yes, but such is the cost of bettering humanity through the esoteric
00:56:14 <hppavilion[1]> (The first attempt at the aforementioned type of language was Stare, for which the jury is still out on whether it's a useful thing)
00:56:45 <hppavilion[1]> (The goal is to create more Perls and Haskells for the world)
00:58:43 <izabera> i'm not good at inventing things
00:59:15 <izabera> ok that doesn't sound like a great starting point for inventing a new branch of it
01:00:58 <izabera> why did you say "more Perls and Haskells"?
01:01:08 <izabera> i mean they're really different
01:01:30 <hppavilion[1]> Because they're so different, but they have their uses.
01:01:44 <hppavilion[1]> AND they help expand the minds of programmers, get them to think in different ways
01:02:42 <hppavilion[1]> Programmers are smart, but not smart enough. The goal of the ZWG is to get programmers so smart that we become telepathic and can use our infinite glorious knowledge to become gods and rule over the universe with an iron fist as a massive collective wait what?
01:03:50 <izabera> err... nothing escalated quickly
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01:21:41 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make yet another website documenting all of the math...
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01:31:55 <hppavilion[1]> But my "All of the Math" website would be targetted at people with a genuine interest in mathematics, as opposed to those who just need to get their homework done so they can pass
01:34:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44317&oldid=44316 * SuperJedi224 * (+113)
01:35:31 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: what do you mean by λ-Arithmetic?
01:36:09 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I was just making things up xD. I was wondering if it was possible to create a simpler λ-calculus that need not be TC, but would be a good way to start learning about it
01:36:31 <hppavilion[1]> The same way it's easier to figure out normal Calculi if you already understand how to add
01:39:06 <tswett> Lambda calculus isn't really related to differential calculus, though.
01:39:58 <tswett> The word "calculus" in "lambda calculus" means "collection of symbol manipulation rules".
01:40:29 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I know, but that doesn't mean there isn't a much simpler thing that one could think of as the "arithmetic" of λness, though I suppose arithmetic wouldn't be the proper word for it
01:42:08 <hppavilion[1]> If, someday, I happen to be good with λ-calculus and want to help others understand it too (and they don't already), I might make a paper or a book called "λ-arithmetic" just as a pun
01:43:10 <hppavilion[1]> (I might've said this before, but I'm saying it now because I don't think I did)
01:43:30 <hppavilion[1]> When I first checked my school district's requirements to graduate, I was a /little/ angry
01:43:39 <doesthiswork> <discussion topic="λ-arithmetic">http://worrydream.com/AlligatorEggs/</discussion topic="λ-arithmetic">
01:43:40 <lifthrasiir> you may try non-Church encoding of arithmetics in \lambda calculus
01:44:09 <hppavilion[1]> But only 3 in math and 3 (or maybe less) in science
01:44:26 <hppavilion[1]> And thus, I was like "OK school district, what the FUCK are you doing"
01:44:55 <hppavilion[1]> Then, in my Algebra II class, the teacher was talking about how some people hit a ceiling on their ability to comprehend math.
01:45:04 <doesthiswork> yes, I always hated english but had difficulty articulating that
01:45:18 <hppavilion[1]> The problem is that they require so much english and Social Studies.
01:45:44 <hppavilion[1]> People don't necessarily need Math and Science, but others don't necessarily need English and Social Studies
01:46:24 <hppavilion[1]> I decided you shouldn't be required to take more math, because then some people would never graduate because they hit a ceiling on their ability to comprehend abstract mathematical concepts
01:46:59 <hppavilion[1]> You should be able to graduate on a fixed number of credits from /any/ class with some low minimums on how many can be from each subject
01:47:13 <izabera> that's how civilization dies
01:47:49 <hppavilion[1]> That way, people who are great at writing but suck at math don't hit a ceiling, and people who are great at math but not so much at writing could greaduate on math credits
01:48:10 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: You couldn't get away with /no/ SS and English, but you also couldn't get away wiht /no/ math and science
01:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> And there will always be people who are good at math and science and enjoy it, so the idea that if we don't require as much then no one at all will understand it doesn't make sense
01:49:04 <izabera> by that reasoning, why are we forcing people to take their first grade math classes?
01:49:21 <izabera> we don't need to be able to sum
01:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Because no one who doesn't have some serious issue hits the ceiling at first grade math
01:49:39 <zzo38> It still help to know how sum works, even if you can do it by calculator
01:49:52 <izabera> but children hit their ceilings
01:50:17 <hppavilion[1]> There's a BIG difference between having trouble at first grade math and being mentally unable to understand differential calculus
01:50:20 <zzo38> For simple sums I don't use the calculator, it is easy enough without
01:50:20 <doesthiswork> brett victor says we don't need as much analytic math because direct simulation can get many results that matter to us
01:50:25 <izabera> hppavilion[1]: no there isn't
01:51:00 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: For you and me it is (well, I haven't gotten there yet, but it should be)
01:51:32 <izabera> everything that's taught in school classes is easy
01:52:07 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm good at learning, bad at showing I did it on homework)
01:52:25 <izabera> being easy is the reason they're teaching it in school classes
01:53:02 <tswett> I've always wanted to create a YouTube lecture series that teaches math.
01:53:14 <doesthiswork> I work as agricultural labor, all my coworkers can understand what a derivative is even if they don't know how that matches to written formulas.
01:53:19 <zzo38> Not all of them are good at easy; the art class is difficult, I dropped it.
01:53:44 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I want to see a video that works from arithmetic to calculus in pure mathematics
01:54:37 <tswett> Then I hate to burst your bubble--there are gonna be analogies everywhere.
01:54:38 <hppavilion[1]> Just a short part of the video that defines some primitive symbols, then uses those symbols to define more complex things, and works up to extreme complexity
01:54:41 <\oren\> no matter how much calculus you know, you'll never become the suppository of all wisdom
01:55:06 <tswett> Right, you're talking about something else.
01:55:17 <doesthiswork> they are the part that takes the most effort to learn
01:55:24 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Let's assume that people having trouble with calc is the same as people having trouble wiht multiplication.
01:55:25 <tswett> I think for every concept, I'd have three things: the intuition behind the concept, the definition of the concept, and a bunch of examples.
01:55:38 <tswett> And, of course, an explanation of how these all relate to each other.
01:55:49 <tswett> I figure my target audience is bright adults who just happen to have never learned this stuff.
01:55:53 <zzo38> What I would want is more of the books, the problem is they make too many videos which mean some things I cannot find in books so well
01:56:24 <zzo38> Some things are difficult with analogies, some things are difficult without analogies, some things are difficult either way, and some analogies are difficult.
01:56:30 <hppavilion[1]> So, can we agree that an average third grader is mentally incapable of understanding calculus, even if given all the resources needed to understand the things before it?
01:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> Or, more generally, that there's a minimum age that some people are capable of understanding some things?
01:57:26 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I do not know the answers to those questions, although it may also differ by people, not just age, anyways
01:58:07 <zzo38> Either way I don't know. (Also the first one you mentioned average, not the second one)
01:58:31 <izabera> i think the point is not age, is that to understand some concepts you need this and this and that
01:58:36 <zzo38> Yes, but which people?
01:58:44 <doesthiswork> my mom taught middle school math and the big concept that she tried to make sure everyone understood before they moved on was ratios and proportional relationships
01:58:46 <izabera> so you need to take this class and that class etc..
01:59:06 <zzo38> izabera: You are probably correct.
01:59:20 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm trying to express that people learn at different rates, and though I'm ready for algebra II now, the people in the middle of the bell curve are not
01:59:33 <zzo38> Age may have something to do with it possibly, but a lot of other things are more important
02:00:35 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Can we agree on what I just said? Some people are prepared to learn things earlier than others?
02:00:56 <zzo38> That much I can agree with at least
02:02:00 <zzo38> Theology is especially difficult though; I have confused well-educated religious people with it a lot
02:02:47 <hppavilion[1]> So we can agree on that though? Person A might be ready to learn something years before Person B?
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02:03:55 <izabera> i don't know how different the human brain was 10000 years ago, but i'm pretty sure they didn't teach multiplication in schools
02:04:11 <izabera> were they incapable of learning it?
02:04:46 <tswett> 10,000 years ago? I'd say probably just about the same.
02:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> Multiplication is something that I would guess anyone without some serious condition is capable of understanding by third grade
02:05:43 <izabera> what about learning english?
02:06:06 <doesthiswork> yes, three year olds understand division much more better than multiplication
02:06:15 <izabera> my grandma doesn't speak english, and mine isn't that good
02:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: What we decide on here will encompass all four major subjects, I assume. We just happen to be focusing on math, as we're all geeks here
02:07:23 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition #2: Can it be agreed that there are jobs that one can be good at without understanding calculus that AREN'T just manual labor?
02:07:50 <izabera> they teached me how to play flute
02:07:57 <izabera> i never needed it past that class
02:08:47 <tswett> My dad's job is definitely a highly skilled occupation, and I don't think he remembers how calculus works.
02:08:54 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition #3: Can it be agreed that, though there is most certainly a link, one can be very far to the right on a bell curve in one subject but average or below in another
02:09:16 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Usually, yes. Unless you're at NASA. Then all bets are off.
02:10:42 <hppavilion[1]> I'm bored waiting, so let's assume the answer is yes.
02:11:40 <izabera> you don't understand that the point of schools is to teach everyone the basics of various subjects
02:12:51 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition 1: Some people are ready to learn things earlier than others
02:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition 2: You can get a good job without understanding Advanced Calculus or knowing the hidden meaning of Shakespear or what the Magna Carta was
02:12:52 <hppavilion[1]> Proposition 3: One can be good at one subject and average or bad at another
02:13:04 <hppavilion[1]> Are those all agreeable to you, izabera zzo38 and doesthiswork?
02:13:16 <zzo38> To me they are, yes
02:13:41 <zzo38> But izabera even said that isn't the point
02:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> My argument is partially that Calculus isn't necessarily the basics
02:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> Property 1: The average student takes Calculus in their senior year
02:16:11 <hppavilion[1]> (Not going to ask for agreement on those because those are pretty much facts, AFAIK)
02:16:19 <doesthiswork> oh, I'm not really properly participating in the discussion, I'm just taking potshots when it is amusing
02:17:12 <hppavilion[1]> Theorem 1: Some people aren't ready to learn Calculus by their senior year (Property 1+Property 2+Proposition 3)
02:17:36 <izabera> how old are people in their senior year?
02:18:00 <izabera> there's no senior year here
02:18:21 <hppavilion[1]> Corrolary to Theorem 1: Those people can still do well in life (Proposition 2)
02:19:14 <izabera> of course they can still do well in life
02:19:26 <izabera> that's what people did in 1500 when calculus didn't exist
02:19:39 <doesthiswork> Also I don't think izabera was necessarily arguing that every one should be required to take calculus
02:20:02 <doesthiswork> He was objecting to you drawing the line by difficulty
02:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Well, to be fair, people did well in life when math barely existed back when we were cavemen. You can't do well in life with no understanding of math now.
02:20:46 <hppavilion[1]> I'm arguing that Calculus is not necessary if you're not good at calculus because Property 3: People tend to want to do things they're good at
02:21:13 <hppavilion[1]> (I'm pretty sure that's a thing. Let me leave science for a minute and check what Sociology has to say)
02:22:06 <doesthiswork> No, don't go check, that breaks the rules of discussion.
02:22:11 <hppavilion[1]> And I give up. Don't know where to find documents on that.
02:22:46 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: I'm pretty sure that the rules of Internet Debate are that if you don't check that you're right when you're unsure, you're an idiot and shouldn't be debating
02:23:33 <\oren\> I'mma release the first version of my font since I switched away from fontstruct soon
02:24:46 <hppavilion[1]> In other news, I think I like this format. It seems much more effective a form of arguing to establish a list of propositions and properties and making sure everyone's on the same page prior to starting your argument
02:25:14 <hppavilion[1]> THEN making your argument in the form of theorems, lemmas, and conjectures
02:25:42 <izabera> i didn't like this format as you're not proving anything
02:25:54 <HackEgo> olist 1005: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
02:26:08 <shachaf> didn't we have this olist days ago?
02:27:14 <oerjan> shachaf: i must have missed it then...
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02:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: I suppose your'e not proving anything, but it seems more clear and concise, and it eliminates the factor of the 2+ parties having completely different view on how this works
02:29:05 <oerjan> shachaf: hm i suspect evil durkon may have made a mistake killing too many of the maintenance people...
02:29:08 <doesthiswork> you could write up a standard for this debate form
02:30:01 <doesthiswork> I can't remember where the link to the standards site is
02:33:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i think that's not necessarily what's happening at all. people aren't _really_ agreeing, they're _tentatively_ agreeing in order to continue the discussion. that's because the propositions you pose are not either obviously true or false, nor do we have the skills to easily discern which it is.
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02:34:08 <hppavilion[1]> Well alternatively, it might be a good way to cheat at arguing xD
02:35:40 <doesthiswork> so your conclusion is that less credits in each category should be required, right?
02:37:27 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: My conclusion is similar to that. It's that, though you should be required to get a certain amount of credits AND you should be required to get a minimum number of credits in each subject, the minimum in each subject should be lower, and you should have the freedom to choose what you're best at for additional credits
02:38:23 <hppavilion[1]> So basically, instead of 3 in math and 4 in english, perhaps 2 in math and 2 in english, but have the same number of require credits total. That frees people to focus more on what they're good at and doesn't put someone who simply isn't ready to comprehend the mysteries of calculus into a calculus class
02:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make up my own geometric system. Anyone have any ideas for axioms I could use?
02:39:35 <izabera> what if i suck at math/english/science/geography/history but 'm good at something that's not taught in schools?
02:39:53 <izabera> can i get credits for that?
02:40:41 <doesthiswork> the argument for lowering each requirement is that more is unnecessary?
02:41:11 <doesthiswork> what is the argument for requiring a certain amount of credits total?
02:42:03 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: It has to be something that you can actually reasonably get by on in life
02:42:22 <hppavilion[1]> This argument was mostly a channel for me to think about it
02:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ZH4E8GG9vwm3OelIxjmnyYvjxAOwxGMTEr2ON5tWeSw/edit?usp=sharing
02:43:02 <izabera> ok, can i get credits for plowing a field?
02:46:58 <izabera> why did we move from an irc chat to chat in a google document?
02:47:59 <\oren\> beacuse cloud computing, internet of thingies, somethingsomething.io
02:52:05 <doesthiswork> is is like a parallel universe where women are men and men are women
02:53:22 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: In geometry... a dimension... normal geometry is 2D or sometimes 3D.
02:53:49 <hppavilion[1]> I've tried to do this before, but we wound up with a bunch of left triangle bullshit. I'm hoping to avoid that this time
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02:55:13 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: A dimension is, essentially, a series of (n-1)-dimensional spaces (where n is the number of dimensions in question) along a line that is positioned a right angle to all other dimensions
02:56:24 <izabera> you're using the word you're defining in the definition
02:56:40 <izabera> and a bunch of other undefined terms
02:57:18 <izabera> look, this has been done before
02:57:40 <hppavilion[1]> It never comes out as elegant as traditional geometry, but it works
02:57:42 <izabera> i suggest you to try to read some past work before trying to reinvent everything
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02:59:39 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: Do you know of any good sources I could go to to find papers on irregular axiomatic systems in geometry?
03:02:43 <izabera> we had a course about this, it was called "introduction to mathematic thinking"
03:03:19 <izabera> it was more of something that brings students from different schools to a common starting point
03:03:31 <izabera> and they did stuff in hyperbolic geometry
03:03:40 <zzo38> Is there a English document of "Hina-Di" format? Right now I cannot find any English one nor is the Japanese one accessible
03:03:54 <izabera> and euclid and proving simple theorems etc...
03:04:17 <izabera> there's not real need to add buzzwords to make it sound complex because it really isn't
03:05:04 <izabera> you define your set of rules, then play according to them
03:06:37 <izabera> there's something called taxicab geometry, it's basically discrete geometry
03:07:29 <izabera> the fun thing is that squares are also circles and the diagonal of a square is 2x its side, etc...
03:10:50 <zzo38> Is it possible to make CSS rules that select based on other CSS rules? I want to make a rule that selects on "text-decoration: blink" and animates such elements. I also want to disable all CSS animations that I have not defined myself
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03:20:47 <\oren\> zzo38: I don't think so
03:21:11 <zzo38> I would also want to be able to selectively disable other kind of CSS rules
03:21:11 <\oren\> I think you can look for css with a user script and then replace it with other css though
03:23:43 <\oren\> Anyway, I finally figured out the full incantations and rituals necessary to convert a .bdf font into a .otf font with no blurriness or rounded edges
03:24:11 <izabera> what does it mean to release a font?
03:24:24 <izabera> i mean what happens then? you stop improving it?
03:24:43 <\oren\> It means I upload that version to my sebsite
03:25:00 <\oren\> I will keep working on it until I get tired of doing so
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03:45:33 <\oren\> ⦀⦁⦂⦃⦄⦅⦆⦇⦈⦉⦊⦋⦌⦍⦎⦏⦐⦑⦒⦓⦔⦕⦖⦗⦘⦙⦚
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04:36:07 <zzo38> What other programming languages does OASYS Assembler resemble? I invented a program "OASYS Assembler" for an existing VM but I do not know what other program language it can be said to resemble? It is stack-based but does not have such stack operations as DUP and DROP and SWAP and so on, and unlike Forth the variable address must be pushed first before the value is pushed
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04:57:59 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a good way to implement a non-stateless lexer-building library/API?
04:58:21 <zzo38> I don't know how you meant exactly
05:00:48 <hppavilion[1]> You just go through the source, matching regexes at the beginning until you run out of code (and moving the "beginning" so it starts after the last token ends)
05:01:29 <hppavilion[1]> If you're lexing an arithmetical expression, you hit the issue where - can mean subtraction OR a negative number
05:01:46 <hppavilion[1]> I manage a small library that handles lexing for users in a simple way
05:02:25 <zzo38> You could do that after lexing I think?
05:02:45 <zzo38> Or else you must tell what it is based on the previous token
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05:59:47 <hppavilion[1]> Python isn't recognizing the λ character in my regexes OR as a print function
06:00:12 <hppavilion[1]> And I've tried the obvious workarounds (making python unicode, using chr(0x03BB), etc)
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07:02:18 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see the concept of "even" and "odd" expanded to the Complex Numbers
07:02:43 <hppavilion[1]> Or at least the ones where a and b are integers (I forgot their name)
07:04:52 <\oren\> so tl;dr of the whole font fiasco: it is apparently very hard to turn a bitmap into a bunch of straight lines forming a square around each pixel. And, once you've done that, Microsoft Cleartype can't handle turning a square one pixel on a side into one pixel, so you have to include a bitmap showing it how to do it.
07:06:07 <\oren\> Am I like, the only person on earth who wants to have a method to do raster -> vector -> raster losslessly?
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07:13:13 <\oren\> On the bright side, I now have Hiragana: むめもゃやゅゆょよらりるれろゎわゐゑをんゔ
07:14:33 <sebbu> well, OCR is still considered hard
07:14:42 <sebbu> especially with low resolution or high noise
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07:21:48 <izabera> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfBBVIoW-68&feature=youtu.be
07:26:16 <zzo38> I would rather you just used bitmap fonts directly though
07:26:39 <zzo38> Therefore you don't need to do raster->vector->raster
07:27:06 <\oren\> It would be nice if windows supported that but it doesn't
07:28:21 <zzo38> I think Windows does support bitmap fonts, last time I checked it can but it uses its own format that is not compatible with UNIX
07:29:37 <\oren\> In particular, I can't seem to create a .fon file with unicode in it
07:30:11 <zzo38> Maybe that format doesn't support Unicode; you need to use your own encodings
07:30:20 <zzo38> Another thing to try is turn off Cleartype
07:34:38 <\oren\> zzo38: I've actually figured out mostly a solution for this problem.
07:34:53 <\oren\> but the fact that it is necessary at all is stupid
07:36:45 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh! so will you add four thousand kanji too?
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07:37:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: or ten thousand korean syllables. that's probably easier to generate.
07:38:21 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/bdf2otf.htm
07:38:49 <\oren\> that's the convoluted process. I've put it online so I can remember it after I finish drawing katakana
07:40:59 <\oren\> I plan on doing at least the 2000 Joyo kanji eventually
07:43:19 <\oren\> b_jonas: I don't plan on doing korean unless I can figure out ow to automate it
07:51:10 <b_jonas> \oren\: um, why couldn't you automate it? they're made of letters you just have to paste together.
07:51:35 <b_jonas> oh, 2000 kanji plus extras? wow, great
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07:52:57 <b_jonas> don't forget the common punctuation for Japanese too, like the full stop, comma, quotation marks, etc
07:56:17 <b_jonas> luckily there's not many of them, and they're relatively easy to draw
07:56:22 <\oren\> so essentially I'll be working up to it being a viable alternative to GNU unifont that isn't fuck-ugly
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08:00:00 <b_jonas> argh, I can't see the font because of some caching stuff
08:00:50 <\oren\> try refreshing a bunch oif times
08:01:12 <b_jonas> it could be a client-side problem
08:03:10 <b_jonas> wait, glagolitic? seriously? what next, will you be adding old phoenician?
08:03:27 <b_jonas> I still don't see the font though
08:04:16 <\oren\> Oh, I think the problem may be that only new versions of firefox have support for the css I'm using
08:04:59 <\oren\> I'll make a second one with different css
08:05:01 <b_jonas> \oren\: yes, maybe the problem is that the browser won't show this type of font from the web
08:05:10 <b_jonas> put both of them into the same css
08:05:21 <b_jonas> seriously, web development best practice
08:05:27 <b_jonas> you don't make different versions for different browsers
08:06:39 <b_jonas> you can put multiple fallback font names to the font-face property
08:07:41 <b_jonas> can't see it yet, but I suspect a client-side problem
08:07:48 <\oren\> I think newer versions of firefox require url("blah") format(opentype)
08:09:07 <\oren\> I dunno but it wasn;'t working on my win7 firefox withou ti
08:10:03 <b_jonas> I can't get it to work, argh
08:10:18 <Taneb> Aaaah I think I've found an error in a maths book
08:10:45 <b_jonas> Taneb: check existing errata, if it's not there, file bug report
08:11:11 <b_jonas> Taneb: sadly, lots of publishers don't care an ounce about supporting their already sold books with errata,
08:11:15 <Taneb> I cannot find any errata
08:11:44 <Taneb> (The Foundation of Mathematics by Ian Stewart and David Tall, Second Edition, Oxford University Press)
08:12:45 <b_jonas> Taneb: look at the beginning and end of the book for possible instructions on where to report bugs, failing that, just write to the publisher. you may want to buffer bug reports and send all ones for the same book together though.
08:13:39 <Taneb> b_jonas: cannot find anywhere to report bugs
08:13:44 <Taneb> The publisher over the authors?
08:13:54 <Taneb> And I'm a slow and easily distracted reader
08:18:01 <b_jonas> Taneb: I'm not sure. If you know the authors in person, it's better to send to them. Otherwise, I'm not sure.
08:18:20 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover might
08:18:31 <Taneb> (he goes to the university where at least one of them teaches, I believe)
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08:20:50 <Taneb> Does anyone else have a copy of this book to see if it is in fact an error?
08:21:21 <Taneb> Well, there are two errors I have seen on page 96
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08:22:19 <b_jonas> You have read on a few pages, in case there's an explanation later, right?
08:23:13 <Taneb> It gives an example of a function "A = all subsets of {0,2,4}, B = N, f(x) = the smallest element of x"
08:23:22 <Taneb> This is not defined for x = {}
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08:24:20 <Taneb> It defines a function as "A function f from A to B is a rule that assigns to each a in A a unique element f(a) in B."
08:27:29 <ashl> maybe they just forgot to include the word 'non-empty' :P
08:27:50 <Taneb> ashl: which is still an error!
08:30:29 <Taneb> The other error on the page is it defines the domain of the factorial function as the positive reals
08:30:52 <ashl> what was the question? how to report an erratum?
08:31:15 <Taneb> Well, whether these are errors first
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08:39:06 <ashl> for the first one, yes; for the factorial one, depends how they define it
08:40:57 <Taneb> They don't define factorial, anywhere
08:45:49 <ashl> well you can define factorial on the positive real numbers
08:46:15 <ashl> but i expect they probably meant positive integers
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09:03:46 <\oren\> b_jonas: I think I'll start putting up image-based previews as well from now on
09:07:34 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.png
09:24:02 <ashl> how do you know your representations are faithful
09:28:05 <\oren\> I mean, this image is basically a screenshot of the page as it appears on my system
09:29:01 <fizzie> There's a sign on a fence I see on my commute that says "Danger" and "Deep excavations". I'm worried about a possible balrog threat.
09:31:29 <ashl> did you for example grow up reading/writing the glagolitic writing system? if not, how do you know it is legible
09:31:52 <\oren\> The dark fire shall not avail you, Flame of Udûn!
09:33:24 <\oren\> ashl: Oh, for that one none still live who grew up writing it. Anyway most of the non-latin, non-Japanese letterforms are based on PDF's from the Unicode foundation
09:34:28 <\oren\> I only added glagolitic so that I would have the one tht looks like a dick. Ⰴ
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09:40:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: image! great, thanks
09:43:52 <b_jonas> \oren\: for the C64, do you have the left and right diagonally shaded blocks?
09:44:04 <b_jonas> the hiragana look nice, meanwhile
09:45:15 <\oren\> uh, are they not there right above the hiragana?
09:45:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: no, those are diagonal half blocks
09:46:34 <\oren\> oh I see. I'll add them
09:46:42 <b_jonas> \oren\: I wonder what that third character in your C64 list is though
09:47:35 <\oren\> there is a character that looks like that in the c64 charset, not sure what it is supposed to be
09:47:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think it's club suit
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09:47:58 <b_jonas> there's also heart suit, diamond suit, and spade suit characters
09:48:05 <b_jonas> but you already have those in the font
09:49:34 <b_jonas> I presume you'll add fullwith katakana later
09:49:55 <\oren\> yah thats the very next thing
09:52:54 <mauris> your script letters beyond t are interesting
09:55:06 <mauris> nice, the c64 font has the ugliest pi i've ever seen
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10:06:38 <b_jonas> mauris: give it a break, they have just an 8x8 cell
10:06:54 <b_jonas> and that on bad quality CRTs where pixels are bleeding into one anothers
10:09:01 <b_jonas> with an analog signal and all that
10:11:20 <\oren\> that explains the thick vertical strokes and thin hrizontal
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10:16:25 <fizzie> b_jonas: At least it's not doing the NTSC composite-signal artifact color thing.
10:17:07 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Composite_artifact_colors that thing
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10:25:02 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? the C64 is a color monitor, it does behave bad for some color combinations
10:25:44 <b_jonas> well, if you have a color monitor that is
10:25:51 <b_jonas> we've run it with black and green monitors
10:27:18 <\oren\> god did these people in the 80's even think about what an ASS this would be to write an emulator for?
10:27:33 <b_jonas> \oren\: hehe... probably no
10:27:59 <b_jonas> \oren\: are you trying to emulate the sprite collision detection in the video hardware? the C64 has it too, just like the Atari
10:29:13 <\oren\> I haven't wirtten a C64 emulator myself but thisngs like this are scaring me even further from it
10:29:59 <\oren\> really 80's programmers scare me in general
10:30:28 <\oren\> using these hardware-software hack tricks to create effects
10:31:52 <\oren\> i guess cleartype is similar but noone to my knowledge makes color fonts by using 1/3 pixel lines and shit
10:33:45 <b_jonas> There are C64 emulators ready to use, I wouldn't attempt to write a new one.
10:34:20 <b_jonas> Hardware-software hack tricks? Like the unreliable casette drive, which actually works better when emulated, because it reads back the signals it wrote perfectly?
10:35:30 <b_jonas> Using the casette drive involves the cpu too much for our 2000s tastes. It's like "winmodems".
10:35:39 <b_jonas> Only it's much more well-documented.
10:35:59 <b_jonas> People have analyzed and debugged the rom listings a lot, and reproduced everything..
10:36:46 <\oren\> do they use an error correcting code on the casette drive then?
10:38:41 <b_jonas> I don't know the details, luckily.
10:54:12 <fizzie> b_jonas: I just mean, the C64 colors are "real", it doesn't do the "let's have a monochrome signal and then turn on the NTSC colorburst so that some bit patterns get interpreted as color" thing, Apple II style. Sure, it's still all smeared up, but anyway.
10:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44318&oldid=42287 * SuperJedi224 * (+53)
10:55:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44320&oldid=44318 * SuperJedi224 * (-53)
10:56:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ReThue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44321&oldid=44320 * SuperJedi224 * (+21)
11:26:44 <b_jonas> but isn't a monochrome signal with tricks how analog color TV is always supposed to work in first place?
11:28:16 <fizzie> Well, okay, if you like to see it that way. But on the C64 the video hardware is at least thinking about color separately, you've got palettes and all that.
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11:39:04 <\oren\> man no matter what settings I use for Cleartype (other than "off") it always looks blurry. cleartype can go suck a Ⰴ
11:40:42 <fizzie> I used to have a 90-degree pivoted monitor, and even after telling the system about it, any sort of subpixel-based antialiasing just looked sucky on that thing.
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11:44:05 <\oren\> should really be called foggytype
11:46:25 <fowl> Cataractishtype
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14:43:08 <hkgit03> Only one more day until NEET
14:45:17 <hkgit03> (strictly speaking it's two more weeks but I have to use up the rest of my vacation)
14:47:14 <Taneb> hkgit03: where do you live?
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14:51:13 <Taneb> I don't know any jobs there seeing as I live in north England
14:51:27 <hkgit03> I am a student for two more weeks :D
14:52:41 <hkgit03> (It's what is called a "dual study". One studies and works alternately)
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15:19:26 <fizzie> Today's abbreviated git commit hash: a1aeaea.
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15:21:52 <fizzie> "What are the chances of that!"
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15:23:20 <Taneb> fizzie: compare that to how many git commits there are a day
15:31:56 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see the concept of "even" and "odd" expanded to the Complex Numbers <-- it turns out that "divisible by 1+i" is the same as "a+b even" while "divisible by 2" is the same as "a _and_ b even" choose wisely hth
15:33:28 <oerjan> hm wait is the first right
15:33:56 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] hm wait, not sure about the first two
15:34:34 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] now sure again hth
15:59:23 <izabera> how do you limit the speed when you're copying a file?
15:59:41 <izabera> do you sleep for a while after each read and write?
15:59:55 <oerjan> c: always the speed limit
16:01:23 <Taneb> oerjan: I don't think that izabera meant c as in the speed of light
16:02:09 <izabera> c the programming language <.<
16:02:42 <izabera> of course it doesn't have to be c, i'm just asking for the technique
16:04:19 <oerjan> Taneb: you're supposed to groan not explain hth
16:04:38 <Taneb> izabera: why do you need to
16:04:45 <Taneb> oerjan: my apologies
16:05:01 <izabera> i don't, i'm just interested in learning how to do it
16:05:59 <izabera> i mean sleeping between after writing the data can work i think, not sure if it's the standard way or if there's a better way
16:09:36 <HackEgo> olist 1006: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
16:10:18 <fizzie> izabera: I think I've read the source for either wget's or curl's rate limiting (for sockets, not files, but it's pretty much the same), and IIRC it was pretty much just about sleeping.
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18:33:07 <tswett> Let's see, can't the concept of even and odd be extended to most algebraic numbers?
18:35:11 <tswett> Yeah, I think here's how you do it.
18:39:04 <tswett> Okay, here's part of it.
18:40:01 <tswett> If a polynomial's leading coefficient is odd, and the sum of its non-constant coefficients is odd, then its roots have the same parity as its constant coefficient.
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18:42:48 <tswett> That doesn't quite sound right. A polynomial can have roots that aren't all the same parity.
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19:06:21 <Bjarne_> Why the heck are all the IRC channels I join so quiet?
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19:10:48 <Vorpal> Apparently you joined at the wrong time
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19:49:31 <fizzie> Vorpal: Wasn't the first time they complained about the lack of talking.
19:51:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44322 * 63.232.95.4 * (+332) Created
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19:59:00 <zzo38> What I would like to see is open-source game engine of the style like Apogee's "Pharaoh's Tomb" and "Arctic Adventure", with four-colour graphics, the unusual (but good) control scheme it uses, similar kind of sound effect, etc but some improvements could also be made such as a level editor, more difficult levels, time limits, and more kind of pieces
20:03:19 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:03:46 <zzo38> They did even mention a sequel which they never made as far as I can tell. (One about a journey to the center of the Earth)
20:10:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44323&oldid=44322 * Kirbyfan64sos * (+77)
20:13:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44324&oldid=44323 * 63.232.95.4 * (+0)
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21:42:20 <oerjan> <tswett> That doesn't quite sound right. A polynomial can have roots that aren't all the same parity. <-- i think you need the polynomial to be irreducible, i.e. not a product of two others
21:43:20 <oerjan> note that (x^2 - 5x + 6) = (x - 2)*(x - 3)
21:43:51 <oerjan> which means you get only the product of parities otherwise
21:44:53 <oerjan> also, i believe there's a concept of roots of polynomials with 1 as leading coefficient being more "integer-like" (i've forgotten the actual term)
21:45:24 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algebraic_integer
21:48:14 <int-e> oerjan: try figuring out whether w = e^{i 2pi/3} is odd or even. Note that w^2 + w = -1...
21:48:55 <oerjan> well by tswett's definition, that's odd...
21:49:27 <oerjan> it's the parity of the constant coefficient
21:49:37 <int-e> really ... are you looking at x^3-1 or at x^2+x+1?
21:49:52 <oerjan> the latter, although in this case it doesn't matter
21:50:05 <int-e> okay, so two odd numbers no longer add to an even number
21:50:21 <tswett> Even numbers should definitely be closed under addition.
21:50:31 <oerjan> then there may be a problem :P
21:50:34 <tswett> Any definition which doesn't satisfy that criterion is wrong.
21:51:19 <oerjan> er but need odd numbers sum to even ones >:)
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21:51:52 <oerjan> that example is almost designed to break that, no matter what you choose
21:52:19 <oerjan> (because w^2 + w + 1 = 0 has w^2 as a solution too)
21:53:22 <tswett> So, right, if the leading coefficient is 1, and the constant term is odd, then the roots must all be odd... right?
21:53:45 <oerjan> note i haven't seen this concept defined that i can recall
21:56:02 <tswett> So that would imply that the roots of w^2 + w + 1 are all odd.
21:56:12 <oerjan> > let w = exp(0 :+ 2*pi/3) in (w^2 + w + 1, w^4 + w^2 + 1) --checking
21:56:14 <lambdabot> (0.0 :+ 3.3306690738754696e-16,4.440892098500626e-16 :+ 5.551115123125783e-16)
21:56:19 <tswett> But by inspection, you can tell that the sum of the roots is -1 (since the w coefficient is 1), and there are two roots.
21:56:45 <oerjan> hm right that's another way
21:57:39 <tswett> Which would seem to imply that the sum of two odd numbers can now be odd.
21:57:51 <tswett> But I'm not sure I actually want to assign a parity to w at all.
21:58:08 <tswett> The polynomial w^2 + w + 1 = 0 has no solutions modulo 2.
21:59:15 <hppavilion[1]> What extension does Esolangs use for the better editing window?
21:59:36 <tswett> Perhaps we should assign parity in exactly those situations where, modulo 2, the polynomial factors as x^a (x - 1)^b.
22:00:10 <tswett> Which certainly excludes most polynomials.
22:00:43 <tswett> I think I'd also want the degree to be a + b, to ensure that the leading x term doesn't vanish modulo 2.
22:01:19 <tswett> I don't know what to do in the case where a and b are both positive.
22:01:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: You seem to be qualified to answer these things
22:02:20 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i _seem_, but i'm not.
22:03:30 <tswett> This definition of parity may or may not work.
22:05:46 <int-e> yeah, the two roots of x^2 + x + 2 add to -1. (a = 1, b = 1)
22:05:57 <tswett> I think this effectively entails that w is half of an odd number, because 2w satisfies the polynomial (2w)^2 + 2(2w) + 4 = 0, which, modulo 2, taking 2w as a primitive variable, is simply (2w)^2.
22:06:54 <int-e> oerjan: a and b are the exponents introduced by tswett above
22:07:18 <tswett> It's apparently half of an even number, without actually being an odd number.
22:07:32 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:08:12 <oerjan> i'll hazard a guess twice any number is even hth
22:08:27 <tswett> How about twice half an odd number?
22:08:54 -!- sc00fy has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:08:59 <oerjan> by "number" i mean a number given by an integral polynomial with odd leading coefficient
22:09:02 <int-e> why guess? if p(x) of degree n has root x, then 2^n p(x/2) has root 2x... and many even coefficients
22:09:32 <int-e> (in fact, 2^n p(x/2) = x^n (mod 2))
22:09:33 <oerjan> to double it, you just double the second coefficient, quadruple the third, etc. afaics
22:09:54 <tswett> It looks like int-e proved it.
22:09:56 <oerjan> which leaves x^n = 0 (mod 2)
22:09:59 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:10:05 <tswett> Boom. Twice any algebraic integer is even.
22:10:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: YOU WILL BE SORRY
22:10:43 <tswett> Hey, what happens when you substitute (x+1) for x? What happens to the coefficients and whatnot?
22:10:44 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: That was like that trope in TV and Movies where they're too lazy to invent a joke so they JUST include the punchine
22:11:25 <tswett> Does this always end up flipping the parity?
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22:12:10 <oerjan> tswett: was it you i @told about 1 + i as divisor, that's then sort of intermediate for gaussian integers
22:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: fizzie isn't answering. Anyone else I could ask?
22:12:23 <tswett> oerjan: wasn't me, I'm pretty sure.
22:12:27 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a special page on what extensions the wiki uses or something?
22:12:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ais523 is the "wikipedia expert" in my mind, although he may be a bit dated
22:12:48 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], one of these http://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:SpecialPages
22:13:18 <oerjan> tswett: well then, note that (1 + i)(1 - i) = 2 so 1 + i divides 2 in the gaussians, so you get at least two possible definitions of "even" there
22:14:13 <oerjan> hm what's the polynomial for 1 +- i
22:14:28 <tswett> Let's see. For x^2 + bx + c, if b = 0 and c = 0, the roots are even; if b = 0 and c = 1, the roots are odd; if b = 1 and c = 0, one root is odd and the other is even; if b = 1 and c = 1, no parity is assigned.
22:14:51 <int-e> oerjan: x^2 - 2x + 2
22:15:04 <tswett> I typed it before int-e hit enter; hth.
22:15:10 -!- adu has joined.
22:15:18 <oerjan> i _meant_ it as a rhetorical question, but thanks :P
22:15:21 <tswett> So the roots are even.
22:16:16 <int-e> tswett: almost trivially, if p(x) = x^n (mod 2) then p(x+1) = (x+1)^n (mod 2)
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22:16:32 <tswett> int-e: doink, you're right.
22:16:44 <tswett> I'm liking this definition I came up with.
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22:17:19 <oerjan> tswett: i think substituting x+1 for x will not change the leading coefficient and will flip the parity of the constant one, but the rest might depend.
22:17:21 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: I just set up a (second) wiki locally, and when I created the main page, the editor was different. And the differntness was ugly
22:19:10 <tswett> Now, do we need to limit this definition to algebraic integers?
22:20:57 <tswett> I'm thinking we can't apply it to all algebraic numbers.
22:21:09 <oerjan> hm wait not sure of my last statement
22:21:32 <int-e> you have already restricted it to those whose minimal polynomials factor nicely modulo 2... haven't you
22:22:01 <tswett> So the definition doesn't apply to 2x - 1 = 0 by virtue of the fact that the polynomial modulo 2, which is 1, doesn't have enough factors.
22:22:14 <tswett> The definition automatically fails for all even leading coefficients.
22:22:24 <oerjan> tswett: i think it's somewhat analogous to in the rational numbers, where you cannot sensibly assign evenness to p/q if q is even
22:22:51 <tswett> But for all rational numbers irreducibly written as p/q, if q is odd, then it gets the parity of p.
22:22:57 <tswett> If q is even, it gets no parity.
22:23:57 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: obviously the person i _really_ would ask is elliott, but he hasn't been in the channel since May.
22:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> I am, at least for now or in part, using a MediaWiki for it
22:24:53 <oerjan> he did sort of imply to me that he might stop visiting before that, though.
22:26:31 <oerjan> and accidentally showed up on the wiki in july or so
22:27:32 <oerjan> tswett: ok how does google translate know that means tdnh
22:28:00 <HackEgo> [U+05EA HEBREW LETTER TAV] [U+05D3 HEBREW LETTER DALET] [U+05E0 HEBREW LETTER NUN] [U+05D4 HEBREW LETTER HE]
22:28:10 <tswett> oerjan: by the fact that those are Hebrew letters which have Latin equivalents?
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22:29:11 <oerjan> tswett: but hebrew is the _one_ language where i wouldn't expect interpretation as acronym...
22:29:40 <oerjan> because it doesn't include the vowels
22:30:39 <tswett> oerjan: well, what did you expect GT to produce?
22:31:31 <oerjan> as you get if you remove any single of those letters
22:31:39 <int-e> tswett: ok, I believe your notion of even and odd numbers works out (i.e. addition and multiplication work out as expected) ... following along the lines of proving that the algebraic numbers are closed under addition and multiplication.
22:32:46 <Phantom_Hoover> @tell hppavilion[1] wiki css is in one of the pages listed here if you want to copy it http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=8
22:33:14 <int-e> so we get a funny subring of the algebraic numbers that enjoy parity.
22:33:26 <oerjan> <tswett> The definition automatically fails for all even leading coefficients. <-- hm are you sure? you could say the _first_ even coefficient counts as leading after (mod 2)...
22:33:52 <int-e> oerjan: but the definition explicitely forbade that
22:34:42 <int-e> (well, as an afterthought at least)
22:35:46 <int-e> ftr, I'm using: "z is even if it is the root of a polynomial p in Z[x] of degree n with p(x) = x^n (mod 2); z is odd if z+1 is even"
22:36:25 <int-e> (you can restrict the first part to minimal polynomials; it makes no difference)
22:37:39 <oerjan> int-e: oh you're saying that these form a subring?
22:37:49 <oerjan> of both odds and evens
22:38:49 <oerjan> i suppose it's just the evens + integers
22:38:56 <oerjan> and the evens are themselves a ring
22:39:44 <int-e> oerjan: yes, I'm saying that.
22:41:23 <oerjan> and 1 +- i are a examples of even numbers that are _not_ twice an algebraic integer.
22:42:09 <oerjan> i suspect with higher degree you can get things that aren't 1+i times one, either
22:42:31 <oerjan> x^n + 2(x^(n-1) + ... + 1) = 0, perhaps
22:43:40 <oerjan> so sqrt(2) is in there
22:43:55 <tswett> oerjan: the definition says a + b has to equal the degree.
22:44:11 <tswett> Which I guess is effectively the same as saying the leading coefficient has to be odd.
22:45:26 <tswett> sqrt(2) is even? I was expecting it to have no parity.
22:46:04 <oerjan> tswett: um i think int-e assumed either a or b is 0, for what he said
22:46:13 <oerjan> what is the parity if neither is 0
22:47:40 <int-e> well, that's why I mentioned x^2 + x + 2 earlier; the two roots add to an odd number...
22:48:01 <int-e> so they shouldn't be assigned a parity
22:50:46 <tswett> My definition claimed that for x^2 + x + 2, one root is even and the other is odd.
22:50:51 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] i suspect it might be this extension which was listed on our version page https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension:WikiEditor
22:51:13 <tswett> But that doesn't make much sense, since the roots are complex conjugates.
22:51:38 <tswett> Maybe they're in a quantum superposition of even and odd, the two of them being entangled at opposite parities hth?
22:52:08 <oerjan> very good. now you're thinking with quantum.
22:54:33 <tswett> Ask for four more pieces of wisdom and then delete one.
22:55:03 <oerjan> Bike's away message is disturbing tdnh
22:55:41 <int-e> HackEgo: what encoding is that?
22:56:03 <oerjan> what happened there...
22:56:18 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/*"$1"* -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
22:56:26 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/\$*
22:57:32 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/'$1?' | grep summary:
22:57:34 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> ` rm wisdom/\\$* \ summary: <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ summary: <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <elliott> revert 1 \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <ais5
22:57:44 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/'$1?' | grep summary: | tail -n+4
22:57:46 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <elliott> revert 1 \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <ais523> revert 87c64ef250a0 \ summary: <ais523> revert 3 \ summary: <Bike> learn $1? \xef\xbf\xbd\xef\xbf\xbd\\(\xef\xbf\xbd\xef\xbf\xbd_o)/\xef\xbf
22:58:14 <int-e> oerjan: of course that leaves the question whether the subring is the largest possible one...
22:58:20 <int-e> oerjan: go on, @ask about it ;-)
22:59:00 <int-e> tswett: w.r.t. the subset relation, not cardinality
22:59:19 <tswett> Not a total order hth.
22:59:36 <tswett> Except I guess "largest" makes perfect sense for a partial order.
23:00:16 <shachaf> when i was young i used to confuse "burma" and "bursa" tdnh
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23:06:28 <fizzie> I'm not answering what?
23:09:10 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], wiki css is in one of the pages listed here if you want to copy it http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AAllPages&from=&to=&namespace=8
23:11:16 <fizzie> I was actually thinking of bumping the version from 1.22 to 1.25 real soon now; but today was unexpectedly busy.
23:12:23 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i suspect it was that extension i saw in your linked Version page
23:13:06 <Phantom_Hoover> it sounded like hppavilion[1] installed it but it looked like shit so he was trying to get our formatting as well
23:13:42 <hppavilion[1]> It's currently kind of ugly. Squares buttons. Bleck.
23:14:38 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: do you have the same skin (vector iirc)?
23:15:21 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I believe so. fizzie: Do you know if the "vector" skin has been modified from its default version?
23:17:58 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Phantom_Hoover: Looks like the page where Vector.css is stored doesn't contain the whole thing
23:19:32 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: do you have the same preferences settings on both wikis?
23:20:05 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: I'm not sure. I don't think I ever changed preferences on either one, but there might be irregular default preferences on esolangs
23:20:25 <oerjan> check the editing preferences tab, i guess
23:21:35 <hppavilion[1]> Looks like there's some weird stuff going on with the way the main page looks
23:24:58 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering using some of the site's content (e.g. the main page's layout and formatting) on my own (CC-BY-SA) wiki
23:26:55 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: As far as I know, LocalSettings.php is the only modified file we have.
23:27:00 <fizzie> The rest is all in the database.
23:27:16 <fizzie> But there's some CSS tweakery that has been done.
23:28:34 <fizzie> As for the skin, LocalSettings.php seems to have $wgVectorUseSimpleSearch = true; set.
23:32:35 <oerjan> perhaps it's just a result of gradual upgrade since 2005 or thereabouts
23:33:35 <oerjan> so now we have a nice upgraded style, while all the new design are crap, pretty much like the web in general hth
23:34:16 <fizzie> I'll probably break it by updating to 1.25.
23:34:56 <oerjan> that's too plausible given everything else that's been broken^Wredesigned this year
23:49:05 <oerjan> *sigh* what happened to microsoft's monthly updates
23:49:33 <oerjan> especially the part where they only happened once a month.
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00:55:44 <HackEgo> [U+03B2 GREEK SMALL LETTER BETA]
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00:57:49 <doesthiswork> Are there many esoteric languages that use biological metaphors like p-systems and membrane computing? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_system
01:02:16 <zzo38> There may be a few biologicals ones
01:03:28 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: You can change the CSS for your account on MediaWiki-based sites, it tell you how on the preferences menu
01:03:42 <zzo38> So you can do that to change that if you do not like the style
01:06:35 <zzo38> I use Cologne Blue with additional CSS rules to remove the sidebar and several other things, and making section numbers green
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01:16:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44325&oldid=44317 * DinoD123 * (+8) /* Pseudorandom Values */ Made less ambiguous and ugly
01:23:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44326&oldid=44325 * SuperJedi224 * (+52) /* Pseudorandom Values */
01:35:16 <\oren\> should I add Bopomofo?
01:35:51 <zzo38> If you are going to add other Chinese stuff, then yes you should unless you have something else to add first
01:37:55 <pikhq> It's mostly used in Taiwan, but it is certainly in use.
01:43:00 <\oren\> Ok I just finished katakana and I'm adding bopomofo. When I finish bopomofo I'll upload a new font file and demo
01:43:29 <zzo38> Did you add hiragana yet?
01:44:05 <\oren\> yes, yesterday. http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.png
01:44:22 <zzo38> Do you know if the use of delve ability in Magic: the Gathering permits the use of mana abilities even if you pay entirely by delve?
01:44:37 <zzo38> Also do you know if any cards have both delve and split-second?
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02:02:56 <tswett> Y'know, I thought costs were paid *before* spells went on the stack.
02:04:45 <tswett> Ah, nope. Putting a spell on the stack is the *first* step in casting it.
02:05:55 <tswett> Then you specify various things, including the spell's total cost and how you intend to pay it—but Delve isn't taken into account in this part.
02:06:48 <tswett> Then you specify specify targets.
02:07:03 <zzo38> Phyrexian mana is taken into account before you figure out total cost, so I would think that if you pay entirely by life then you cannot use mana abilities at this time but delve is different than that.
02:07:09 <tswett> Then... you determine the total cost again? That doesn't make sense.
02:08:31 <tswett> In any case, it goes on the stack in step 601.2a, then you calculate cost stuff in step 601.2b, then you determine the total cost in step 601.2f, then you may or may not be able to activate mana abilities in 601.2g, then you pay the cost in 601.2h.
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02:08:48 <tswett> The wording of Delve is: "For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana."
02:09:32 <tswett> The same clause also states: "The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined. "
02:10:17 <tswett> All of this implies that Delve does *not* alter the "total cost"; the "total cost" is just mana, even if you intend to pay it by exiling.
02:10:46 <tswett> 601.2g says that you can activate mana abilities "if the total cost includes a mana payment".
02:11:02 <tswett> So, to actually answer zzo38's question...
02:12:07 <tswett> zzo38: when you use Delve, you can always activate mana abilities as if you weren't using Delve, because Delve has no effect until after you've had the opportunity to activate mana abilities.
02:12:35 <zzo38> Ah, OK, I thought it might
02:13:49 <\oren\> Wait, does that mean I can cast an instant between a spell going on the stack and its cost being determined?
02:14:15 <zzo38> You don't get priority during that time
02:14:56 <tswett> `learn Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.” The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the spell with delve is determined.
02:14:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'delve': Delve is a static ability that functions while the spell with delve is on the stack. “Delve” means “For each generic mana in this spell’s total cost, you may exile a card from your graveyard rather than pay that mana.” The delve ability isn’t an additional or alternative cost and applies only after the total cost of the
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02:28:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44327&oldid=42464 * Timwi * (+66) /* Features */
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02:31:41 <zzo38> I don't know if someone is
02:34:26 <izabera> i need someone to teach me swedish
02:34:46 <oerjan> olsner, Vorpal, FireFly, maybe i've forgot some
02:34:56 <oerjan> i can also do a little swedish in a pinch
02:35:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44328&oldid=44327 * Timwi * (+5) /* Less-than and shift-left */
02:36:07 <oerjan> (it's rather similar to norwegian)
02:37:12 <oerjan> izabera: 99% of swedes know english, i'm sure
02:37:30 <oerjan> in case it's for meeting or visiting
02:38:25 <izabera> i need to learn swedish for secret reasons
02:38:45 <izabera> it must be a fully fledged course, not just something that teaches me how to sing the caramelldansen
02:39:02 <izabera> ok well i only want to sing the caramelldansen
02:39:19 <izabera> it wasn't that big of a secret after all
02:39:25 <olsner> bah, you don't need to learn swedish for that, just do it phonetically
02:39:40 <izabera> https://translate.google.com/?client=tw-ob#sv/en/caramelldansen
02:39:59 <oerjan> getting the pronunciation right might require some training
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02:41:48 <oerjan> it means "the caramel dance" hth
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02:42:58 <olsner> iirc, caramell is the name of the band/artist/etc
02:43:21 <oerjan> izabera: http://lyricstranslate.com/en/caramelldansen-caramel-dance.html
02:43:26 <olsner> I wonder if they've produced anything else
02:44:42 <izabera> if you think about it, learning swedish would simplify so many things
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02:45:03 <izabera> i would be able to go to ikea and know wtf is a poang chair
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02:45:31 <oerjan> izabera: the names are pretty idiosyncratic even in swedish
02:45:32 <izabera> no other reasons to learn swedish
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02:45:38 <olsner> you'd mostly learn that the names have nothing to do with the thing
02:45:47 <\oren\> izabera: the most useful languages on the internet are japanese, chinese, swedish, and russian
02:45:49 <oerjan> some of them are actually norwegian placenames
02:46:12 <olsner> izabera: pong means point
02:46:45 <izabera> why would you name a chair like that
02:47:08 <oerjan> <olsner> I wonder if they've produced anything else <-- wikipedia has a discography hth
02:47:22 <izabera> https://translate.google.com/?client=tw-ob#sv/en/caramelldansen
02:47:29 <izabera> http://www.ikea.com/us/en/catalog/products/S79825193/
02:47:52 <\oren\> sweden appears to produce a lot of pop culture
02:48:22 <oerjan> izabera: what i've heard is that it's because the founder of ikea was dyslectic or something so hated serial numbers, so he choose random memorable words instead
02:48:50 <\oren\> Also the Swedish House Mafia
02:49:15 <izabera> i guess they used up all the meaningful names
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02:49:47 <olsner> the color names look like place names
02:50:39 <oerjan> well i recall previously mentioned there was an ikea shark plush toy named BLÅHAJ, that was actually perfectly descriptive
02:51:10 <oerjan> so they're not _all_ meaningless, but most are
02:51:37 <izabera> is there some kind of rule about uppercase in swedish?
02:52:14 <oerjan> i think swedish case is pretty much like norwegian, which is pretty much like english but with very slight tweaks
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02:52:47 <izabera> how does this sound in norwegian? buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo
02:53:01 <\oren\> Dansa med os, clappa era hander, yor som vi yor te nagra steg at vanster
02:53:10 <oerjan> well you'd have to say bøffel instead, naturally.
02:53:40 <oerjan> no alternative verb meaning, alas.
02:54:07 <olsner> swedish has bufflar as both the plural and a verb
02:54:10 <oerjan> \oren\: i ... think you have some spelling errors, and not just the accents.
02:54:18 <olsner> buffalobufflar bufflar something something
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02:55:46 <\oren\> ok apparently I spelled most of the above wrong. owell
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02:56:29 <\oren\> hey sweden, why is your g pronounced like a y!?!
02:57:05 <oerjan> it's a sound change in front of front vowels.
02:58:10 <oerjan> english has inherited pretty much a similar one with many french words, it just doesn't have the ø
02:58:52 <oerjan> italian also has such a change
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02:58:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44329&oldid=44328 * Timwi * (-2) /* List encoding grammar */
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02:59:26 <oerjan> g being something else than a hard g in front of front vowels like i and e
02:59:49 <izabera> but we use ghi and ghe to make it hard
03:00:10 <izabera> and gia gio giu to make it soft in front of a o u
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03:01:10 <oerjan> in fact my own name had such a change at some point in it's path from greek georgios
03:01:54 <izabera> oh does oerjan mean george?
03:02:33 <olsner> well, same name, just different spelling and pronounciation
03:02:53 <oerjan> well it's _descended_ from george. and i know there's at least a swedish tradition of referring to St. George as Göran or Örjan
03:04:18 <oerjan> https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sankt_G%C3%B6ran
03:04:19 <olsner> St George/Gran is the patron saint of Stockholm or something
03:04:36 <oerjan> "Sankt Göran (Sankt Georg, Sankt Jörgen, Riddar Örjan, Georg den Helige, lat. Sanctus Georgius), "
03:05:17 <olsner> oho, Jrgen is also the same name
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03:06:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Fundamentals]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44330&oldid=34819 * Timwi * (+450) /* XOR and Shift-left */
03:07:31 <olsner> hm, time to sleep a bit, it's almost morning
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03:07:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Functions]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44331&oldid=34821 * Timwi * (+13)
03:08:01 <izabera> why sleep now, you can sleep tomorrow
03:08:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44332&oldid=24766 * Timwi * (+573) /* Successor function */ Predecessor function
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03:09:03 <oerjan> "Sankt Göran är flitigt använd som symbol i Ryssland, egentligen Moskvas skyddshelgon, och återfinns bland annat i det ryska riksvapnet. Han är även skyddshelgon för England, Portugal, Katalonien, Litauen, Serbien, Montenegro, Georgien, Etiopien, London, Freiburg im Breisgau, Genua, Lod, Barcelona (Sant Jordi), Strumpebandsorden och scoutrörelsen."
03:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44333&oldid=44332 * Timwi * (-579) /* Subtraction, unary minus, absolute value, shift right */ Shift right is now in "Fundamentals"
03:09:15 <oerjan> that's a list of places he's patron saint of
03:09:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Back]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44334 * Hppavilion1 * (+37) Created Template
03:10:07 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: what now
03:10:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44335&oldid=44333 * Hppavilion1 * (-20) Set up template
03:10:52 <hppavilion[1]> It says "<- [[{{{1}}}|Back to {{{1}}}]]" (where <- is an actual arrow)
03:11:09 <oerjan> we have subpages enabled on the user namespace, but not the main oe
03:11:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44336&oldid=44335 * Timwi * (+1) /* Subtraction, unary minus, absolute value */
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03:12:22 <oerjan> i mean mediawiki has an automatic system for those backlinks, but we haven't enabled it for the main namespace
03:12:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44337&oldid=44336 * Hppavilion1 * (-2) Fixed template
03:13:11 <oerjan> i'm afraid it would break pages we already have (/// anyone) if we did?
03:13:39 <hppavilion[1]> It's useful for if you want to add it manually, I guess
03:14:18 <izabera> you're a c++ programmer now
03:15:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44338&oldid=44337 * Timwi * (+26) /* Division and modulo */
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03:16:03 <oerjan> here's a sample of how it works in the user space https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/FurryScript
03:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should figure out what MediaWiki's computational class is
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03:17:57 <oerjan> the only reason why it wouldn't be turing complete is because they have to have resource limits
03:19:07 <oerjan> i don't know all these technical details about it
03:19:14 <oerjan> i can barely write a template
03:19:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Basic arithmetic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44339&oldid=44338 * Timwi * (-243) /* Division and modulo */ update to newest version (with Starkov construct)
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03:22:47 <zzo38> There are many other user subpages too, not only myself
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03:37:00 <hppavilion[1]> My λ-calculus lexer works on at least one test case! ("(λx.x)y")
03:38:25 <hppavilion[1]> "Alone in Valhalla" would be a good name for a philisophical short story...
03:39:06 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, words are just arbitrary patterns of letters (representing sounds) that we apply meaning to
03:39:49 <hppavilion[1]> And AFAICT from Relativity, movement is pretty much meaningless...
03:40:49 <izabera> the outer ( ) isn't needed
03:41:43 <hppavilion[1]> The point was that it is "philisophical" OR "philosophical" OR any other of the infintite possible words we could assign to it
03:42:47 <hppavilion[1]> And isn't that we can understand it all that matters?
03:43:03 * hppavilion[1] goes into another /(phil(i|o)sophical|.*)/ monologue
03:43:55 <izabera> i think the point is that the target should understand
03:44:21 <hppavilion[1]> The speaker needs to understand what they're saying, too
03:44:42 <hppavilion[1]> Which is why babies saying "i luv my mama" is entirely meaningless
03:45:01 <izabera> assume you have a perfect translation software
03:45:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/List handling]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44340&oldid=38011 * Timwi * (+11126) Updates
03:45:22 <izabera> you can't speak french, your software can
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03:46:04 <izabera> the software translates your sentence, you say it and you don't understand it anymore, but the target does
03:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> izabera: But you understand what you're saying, assuming you can trust the soft- oooooh
03:47:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Timwi * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Funciton list functions dependency graph.png]]"
03:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> Where we may be experiencing two entirely different planes of reality?
03:47:42 <izabera> well i didn't mean this but it makes sense i think
03:49:12 <hppavilion[1]> "well i didn't mean this but it makes sense i think"
03:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> In a conversation about whether the speaker has to understand what they're saying
03:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> (Not proved ourselves wrong. Disproved ourselves.)
03:52:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Functions]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44342&oldid=44331 * Timwi * (+151) Lazy-evaluated sequences coming up
03:53:50 <ski> izabera : hm .. <https://web.archive.org/web/20130121075258/http://www.slayradio.org/home.php?news_item=15>,<http://www.slayradio.org/home.php#mastering_swedish_lesson_1>
03:57:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44343 * Timwi * (+79171) Explanations coming up...
04:11:25 <\oren\> I've uploaded the new version of my font with katakana. I'm having... issues with bopomofo so they're not in the demo yet
04:12:06 <izabera> do you use something like git for your font?
04:12:27 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Fun’
04:12:28 <lambdabot> variable ‘un’ (imported from Control.Lens),
04:12:32 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Fun’
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04:13:36 <\oren\> izabera: No, I jsut upload it to my website
04:13:50 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
04:14:15 <coppro> \oren\: why are things green?
04:14:52 <coppro> \oren\: also some of the hiragana are bursting their bounding boxen
04:15:05 <\oren\> they are the newset characters
04:15:34 <coppro> actually it's not just the hiragana
04:16:32 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.png they don't seem to do that for me?
04:17:09 <ski> oh, petscii
04:17:47 <\oren\> oh shit I forgot I added more petscii chars
04:17:57 <coppro> for me the top line of every character is replaced with a single-pixel black line
04:18:13 <coppro> also your hiragana are really cozy even so Oo
04:21:21 <\oren\> coppro: web font support appears to vary widly between browsers in terms of pixel-perfection
04:22:11 <\oren\> and even between versions of the same browser
04:22:27 <\oren\> firefox behaves different on windows versus linux for instance
04:23:00 <\oren\> At least terminal emulators appear to have much more consistency
04:26:38 <\oren\> now i'm gonna try to fix the bopomofo so i can add them
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04:29:20 <\oren\> after that, i'll maybe draw the rest of the wide latin and make them not screwed up
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04:35:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44344&oldid=44343 * Timwi * (+3687)
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04:50:23 <\oren\> hey, coppro, I changed the otf file, does this one have less glitches?
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04:54:39 <\oren\> at least now I know how to make otfs that actually work on other peoples computers
04:57:35 <\oren\> why are my computers always the special ❄'s?
05:00:10 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas I've added katakana and bopomofo now
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05:20:47 <^v> hkgit03, D: hope you have another job in mind
05:21:10 <hkgit03> Uhm well I am applying of course but got nothing so far
05:23:31 <^v> thats good, im guessing you are applying for tech jobs
05:25:38 <^v> im looking for one but i live in 'murica but nobody around here will interview high schoolers
05:26:11 <^v> mostly because of their requirements
05:26:48 <^v> the high-paying ones really only accept people that have degrees
05:27:46 <^v> or internships through the colleges
05:27:54 <^v> and im not in college yet
05:28:58 <hkgit03> I won't get the murrican school system very soon
05:29:54 <^v> which is kind of stupid, i practically have the same or better experience than most CS majors
05:31:43 <^v> yes, close to getting a certificate
05:32:43 <\oren\> C++ isn't really used much in school but a lot of companies use it
05:33:05 <^v> all im doing to get it is going through the week's material and answering all the questions on the test in one day
05:33:14 <^v> then waiting for them to let me take the next test, etc
05:33:38 <^v> a lot of startups are using Ruby now
05:34:18 <^v> and they accept a lot of college skiddies
05:34:45 <\oren\> millions of lines of terrible code, coming right up
05:34:46 <^v> ruby and node.js
05:34:58 <^v> are the main two right now for startups
05:35:03 <^v> PHP is slowly slowly dying
05:36:03 <\oren\> At work I use C++ and a proprietary language
05:36:25 <\oren\> well, more like two proprietary languages
05:36:53 <\oren\> the C++ is a proprietary dialect
05:37:04 <^v> 90% of going from mastering C to mastering C++ is memorizing all the different uses for things in std and boost
05:38:25 <^v> \oren\, robomatter?
05:39:09 <^v> probably not
05:40:13 <\oren\> we don't do robots. yet.
05:40:42 <^v> robomatter is the creator of RobotC which is the fucking worst C like language in existence
05:41:02 <\oren\> but if someone builds a robot, they could use Houndify to make it voice-activated
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05:41:30 <^v> ill explain, robomatter made their own VM and their own C compiler
05:41:45 <^v> let me look up the CPU our robots use
05:41:50 <myname> i always thought c++ is the worst c like language in existemce
05:42:30 <\oren\> clearly you've never had to figure out what the hell Objective-C++ is supposed to be
05:43:46 <^v> cba look up the model, its some ARM Cortex M3 with only 64k ram and 256k flash
05:44:02 <^v> but the VM is insane slow
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05:44:59 <^v> their C compiler is barely ISO compliant
05:45:40 <^v> arrays are physical pointers, rather than being their own type and decaying like they usually do in C
05:46:20 <^v> hkgit03, say in C you declare a array
05:46:27 <\oren\> you can use an array's name as if it were a pointer to the first element of the array
05:46:27 <^v> char potato[16];
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05:47:04 <^v> you can implicitly cast potato as a char*
05:47:25 <hkgit03> Is that a cast? I thought it implicitly was nothing but a char*
05:47:47 <\oren\> no because sizeof(potato) is still 16
05:47:47 <hkgit03> so that char potato[16] would be the same as char* potato = (char*)malloc(16);
05:48:08 <\oren\> and arrays are allocaed on the stack not the heap
05:48:21 <^v> hkgit03, pretty much but obviously it gets freed as the stack unwinds
05:48:37 <hkgit03> you mean the array pointer is on the stack?
05:48:49 <\oren\> no the array data is ont he stack
05:48:53 <^v> no the physical bytes are on the stack
05:49:11 <^v> well when you want to pass potato to a function
05:49:12 <hkgit03> cannot get random array access into this context..
05:50:02 <\oren\> the stack isn't accessed like a stack in C
05:50:16 <hkgit03> Aren't we talking about the C stack? I thought we were
05:50:36 <^v> the main issue of their compiler though, if you mess up brackets
05:50:43 <^v> you get an error on an unrelated line
05:51:08 <^v> and in some cases, a missed semicolon messes up the brackets
05:51:19 <^v> and you get an unrelated error at the bottom of the file
05:51:25 <myname> hkgit03: of course it's on the stack. that's why it is such a mess to return an array
05:51:28 <oerjan> @tell edwardk I notice you haven't uploaded a new constraints to hackage
05:52:48 <^v> also there is no linker
05:53:04 <^v> the linker has been a request for over 5 years now
05:53:12 <\oren\> so you have to compile the whole program at once?
05:53:39 <^v> yes, you have to do #include "poop.c"
05:54:04 <^v> myname, xD c++ is the opposite, i feel like i split things into files way too often
05:54:27 <myname> well, yes, you can split into files
05:54:34 <\oren\> myname: well yeah, but at least c++ can use namespaces
05:55:03 <^v> c++ namespaces are my savior on my latest robot project
05:55:03 <\oren\> whereas here he has to make sure every name is unique throughout the progrem
05:55:18 <^v> well i dont use RobotC
05:55:44 <^v> there is a open-source Free-RTOS based OS for the robots called PROS
05:55:51 <^v> its gcc/g++ based
05:55:57 <^v> which is great
05:57:26 <\oren\> the typical C equivalent to a namespaced function is a static function
05:57:27 <^v> im decent with arm/thumb so inline asm is extremely useful in some cases
05:58:33 <^v> until about 2 years ago in RobotC ints were 16 bit and longs were 32 bit
06:07:58 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnzek-QEc0o
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06:16:39 <^v> \oren\, i only listen to chiptune
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07:05:02 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh great, the web font version works now! I swear I tried it yesterday evening and it didn't yet work.
07:05:18 <b_jonas> I'm glad you didn't break it forever
07:10:36 <\oren\> Yeah I was doing something wrong before when making the otfs
07:12:41 <\oren\> so yeah now there is all the kana and also bopomofo
07:13:20 <\oren\> tomorrow I'll add the full wide ascii set and maybe a few kanji
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07:17:25 <\oren\> I should also add at leat that one hangul sylable that looks like a stick figure
07:18:00 <b_jonas> \oren\: are you going to auto-generate the ten thousand korean syllables from constituents? you'd just need to draw the letters in a couple of different sizes, the composition tables to drive it, some simple rules to choose the sizes from the letters (from whether there's a final, and from what shape the medial is), and a perl script to drive and compose the bitmaps and write a bdf.
07:18:18 <b_jonas> \oren\: be sure to add the common Japanese punctuation
07:19:22 <edwardk> @tell oerjan mostly because i'm not very happy with the new forall
07:20:55 <\oren\> I've got the fullwidth Japanese comma and period already done, but I'll wait until I finish the whole group they're in before I add to the demo
07:24:23 <b_jonas> s/tables/rules/ because it's so long the decompositions aren't even listed in the long tables in ICU, but instead decomposed on the fly by the code, implemented in icu/icu/source/common/normalizer2impl.{h,cpp}
07:32:20 <b_jonas> \oren\: sure, I don't mean only the period, but also some of the more tricky ones, like quotation marks, parenthesis, and the rare tilde thingy
07:32:33 <b_jonas> and whatever else there is
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07:46:54 <b_jonas> wtf. configure help says '--enable-stage1-languages[=all] choose additional languages to build during stage1. Mostly useful for compiler development'
07:47:02 <b_jonas> I'm configuring gdb, not gcc, what the heck is with you?
07:49:43 <\oren\> Ok, I'mma upload the font again, because I've finished wide ascii
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07:52:46 <b_jonas> \oren\: the font only, or also the demo?
07:55:41 <\oren\> at the bottom, wide ascii
07:58:23 <\oren\> ＡＢＣＤＥＦＧＨＩＪＫＬＭＮＯＰＱＲＳＴＵＶＷＸＹＺ
07:59:00 <b_jonas> ok, I got answer to my question on #gdb
08:00:22 <b_jonas> \oren\: looks good, they match the normal ascii well
08:00:38 <\oren\> should i also put into the demo page the 12 or so chinese characters included?>
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08:01:50 <b_jonas> argh, I forgot this. you never know which of "make test" and "make check" do tests. sometimes one of them is a plain error, sometimes one is a nop and the other does tests, and sometimes they run a different set of tests.
08:06:42 <\oren\> there's the chinese in the demo.
08:07:31 <\oren\> 一丁丂七丄丅丆丈三上下不且世个中串主九了事二人
08:08:16 <b_jonas> \oren\: aren't they supposed to be green though?
08:08:58 <\oren\> and I should remove green from the older green ones
08:12:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: I'm missing 日 , 月 , 門 , 口 , which seem quite common, and some more numbers
08:12:49 <b_jonas> \oren\: and the punctuations of course
08:13:04 <\oren\> Oh, right. punctuation
08:17:09 <\oren\> 々 isn't really punctuation but it's in that range
08:18:13 <\oren\> yeah many common kanji I haven't drawn yet. I'll draw more tomorrow
08:21:31 <b_jonas> \oren\: will you later do two glyphs for the punctuation that changes between left-to-right and right-to-left arabic context, and two glyphs of the Japanese and Chinese punctuation that sometimes changes between horizontal and vertical writing (and sometimes depend on language too)?
08:22:48 <\oren\> I'll put it in my todofile
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08:23:51 <b_jonas> \oren\: in particular, there's a vertial variant of the katakana long vowel sign, and vertical variants of the Japanese full stop and comma that I think might have language-dependent rules, and vertical variants of the Japanese quotation marks
08:24:25 <b_jonas> \oren\: arabic stuff might not be worth because you won't be supporting it with this font, but you are planning to support Japanese text
08:24:38 <b_jonas> I don't know the detailed rules about these and how common they are, you'll have to look it up
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08:24:56 <b_jonas> they might also depend between ltr and rtl vertical columns
08:25:11 <b_jonas> the kanji you added look good to me though
08:25:33 <\oren\> in practice I think japanese and chinese simply use fonts with rotated gyphs
08:25:39 <b_jonas> I got some fails from the gdb make check, but I think at least some of them are because I have too old version of libc here
08:25:41 <\oren\> usually called @fontname
08:25:57 <\oren\> 04:21 < b_jonas> \oren\: will you later do two glyphs for the punctuation that
08:25:57 <\oren\> changes between left-to-right and right-to-left arabic
08:25:57 <\oren\> context, and two glyphs of the Japanese and Chinese
08:25:57 <\oren\> punctuation that sometimes changes between horizontal and
08:25:57 <\oren\> vertical writing (and sometimes depend on language too)?
08:26:02 <b_jonas> \oren\: sure, when you're using software that doesn't have enough support for this kind of stuff
08:26:11 <b_jonas> glyph variants and all that
08:26:15 <\oren\> shit stupid middle click paste
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08:27:02 <b_jonas> and then you get hard to read Japanese text in Chinese font, or Serbian/Macedonian text in Russian font (I still say those should have been two different SCRIPTS in unicode, not one cyrillic script, but politics overrode that and it's way too late to change now with all the existing corpus)
08:27:18 <\oren\> I have for exaple @MS Gothic which shows all japanese charatcers sideways
08:27:55 <\oren\> so you print it normally and then turn the page physically
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09:23:50 <hkgit03> Why does the esolang wiki have lemons as logo anyway?
09:24:26 <Taneb> hkgit03: they're limes
09:27:52 <izabera> you summon the devil when you squeeze them? idk
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09:28:16 <hkgit03> I think the devil is mainstream
09:28:39 <hkgit03> maybe the ghost of Winston Churchill
09:29:25 <Taneb> Did you put the limes there
09:29:49 <fizzie> That's what it's called, I believe.
09:30:25 <fizzie> As I understand it, the matrix of solidity.
09:32:25 <fizzie> It's origins have kind of been lost in time.
09:32:48 <hkgit03> Like origins of most esoteric things, I presume
09:33:10 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-03-19#015027Maharba some discussion
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09:34:05 <hkgit03> blocked by workplace firewall, but I'll read it eventually
09:34:30 <fizzie> Just as a note of caution, you won't find any answers there, just questions.
09:34:48 <fizzie> But the "trilime" term is fairly well established, at least.
09:36:02 <fizzie> I once suggested http://zem.fi/~fis/trilime.svg as a replacement, but it wasn't really appreciated.
09:37:04 <hkgit03> yeah uhm it doesn't raise questions as much as the original trilime
09:37:30 <Taneb> I guess you could say that the reasons for the trillime are esoteric
09:38:41 <fizzie> When life gives you limes, make esolangs.
09:38:58 <hkgit03> Is there no backup of the BF Operating System Bootloader?
09:39:09 <Taneb> `addquote <fizzie> When life gives you limes, make esolangs.
09:39:11 <HackEgo> 1255) <fizzie> When life gives you limes, make esolangs.
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10:54:16 <HackEgo> ostrich/Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
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11:06:04 <HackEgo> wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
11:06:21 <HackEgo> monoid/Monoids are just categories with a single object.
11:06:33 <FireFly> well at least they are isomorphic
11:12:37 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
11:13:29 <boily> `culprits wisdom/wise
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11:14:34 <boily> bellonder|, FirelloFly, fizziello.
11:20:46 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
11:21:45 <boily> fizzie: I use http://www.soloestetica.it/Ingrandimenti5/FA_1813.jpg
11:22:35 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
11:23:30 <int-e> Content-Type: application/binary
11:23:37 <int-e> that's not going to be helpful
11:23:45 <fizzie> Yes, it'll probably just download the file.
11:25:05 <fizzie> hkgit03: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20131230-coin.jpg is a regular image, if that helps. It's not all that exciting to look at, however.
11:25:32 <hkgit03> I guessed that it's an image, thank you.
11:25:44 <hkgit03> I just rant about the workplace proxy in general
11:26:27 <fizzie> Oh, I assumed it was objecting to the application/binary type, as possibly implied by int-e.
11:26:45 <fizzie> That's one strict proxy you've got there.
11:26:56 <hkgit03> The dropbox url works fine
11:27:16 <hkgit03> And normally, if you use it to browse sites for work purpose, even if they seem to be private, they are not blocked
11:27:51 <hkgit03> This proxy knows what I'm up to, it has a built-in mind reader which determins my intention and blocks stuff that keeps me from working.
11:28:07 <fizzie> Possibly it just has something against codu.org.
11:28:19 <hkgit03> NO it MUST be the mind reader
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11:29:07 <hkgit03> Yes, it has something against codu.org, nothing from that site worked so far iirc -_-
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11:30:11 <boily> hkgit03: you should try the PDF in the /topic.
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11:30:59 <hkgit03> I remember reading that for the first time two years ago. I like it.
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12:45:48 <ais523> hmm, I am of the opinion that hppavilion[1] is interpreting the esowiki as performance art
12:45:53 <ais523> which may well be the bast attitude to it
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13:10:26 <myname> at lest he doesn't post lame languages and write yet another bot, i'm fine
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13:56:49 <HackEgo> boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
13:56:53 <Taneb> Where the hell did that come from
13:57:08 <ais523> hmm, I've forgotten the command
13:57:11 <ais523> that checks wisdom history
13:57:18 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/*"$1"* -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
13:57:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
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14:16:28 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
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14:28:02 <fizzie> ais523: I think your command was all right. I'm not sure why it didn't work.
14:28:12 <fizzie> Taneb: http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/24f05857a418/wisdom/boxmodel
14:28:29 <ais523> so it's not the bug where HackEgo does a "No output." on the first command after a whlie
14:28:38 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
14:28:47 <fizzie> Oh, it probably needs manual wisdom/.
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14:28:57 <fizzie> Since it's a generic culpritter.
14:29:06 <fizzie> `culprits wisdom/boxmodel
14:29:24 <ais523> I don't remember changing it though
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14:29:27 <fizzie> That's bett... except, I don't see those other people in the file log.
14:29:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] overwrite * Timwi * uploaded a new version of "[[File:Funciton list functions dependency graph.png]]": Why am I wasting so much time on this?
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14:29:44 <ais523> oh, perhaps it got affected by my script to delete random entries from wisdom/
14:29:49 <ais523> which was buggy and I'm not sure what it did instead
14:30:10 <fizzie> Yes, apparently, and then int-e did a revert.
14:31:03 <fizzie> Seems that it doesn't show up in the web browser's "file log" because it lacks the equivalent of --removed.
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14:32:10 <b_jonas> just list the version history of the ATTIC virtual directory
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14:46:41 <b_jonas> \oren\: the webfont version of your fontdemo page now works from the work machine too. so yes, probably just an error in the previous version.
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15:11:25 <b_jonas> the Erdős discrepancy problem solved, it seems. see https://gowers.wordpress.com/2015/09/20/edp28-problem-solved-by-terence-tao/
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15:22:43 <Taneb> b_jonas: what is the Erdos discrepancy problem?
15:23:26 <b_jonas> Taneb: see that blog post by Gowers, it should tell
15:26:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44346&oldid=44344 * Timwi * (+94) whoa, managed to leave out zip
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16:05:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44347&oldid=44163 * 68.197.153.86 * (+23) /* Implementations */
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16:07:00 <tswett> Bake 20–25 at 350 until golden brown, remove at once.
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16:11:19 <int-e> tswett: ah, but bake what?
16:12:23 <tswett> My instructions tdnh tbqh.
16:13:07 <int-e> oh it's a variation on tbh.
16:13:44 <ais523> tswett: did you start off with a nonsequitur just so that you could make that response when someone queried it? :-D
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16:14:21 <tswett> ais523: you're not allowed to know the answer to that question.
16:15:33 <HackEgo> The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
16:15:40 <b_jonas> int-e: a "chocolate cherry custard cake with buttercream frosting rosettes"
16:15:53 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/cake
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16:16:11 <fungot> b_jonas: wp is currently depriving us of the marriage was one of the templates at wikipedia:fair use rationale guideline fair use rationale.
16:16:25 <fungot> b_jonas: i just archived dana's proposal ( and my revision) as per fnord motion above. user:archolaarch o. lasupsmallfont color="green"user_talk:archolatalk/font/small/supfont color="404040"user:archola/ the_centrist_factiontcf/font 08:01, 27 march 2008 ( utc)
16:16:33 <ais523> what fungot style is that? seems Wikipedia-related
16:16:33 <fungot> ais523: i left a message on my talk page and calling me a troll. user:yami takashiyami ( user talk:yami takashitalk)
16:16:38 <fungot> b_jonas: this section is also being discussed above, but that of the wolf, if it's the creatures appearing on the coat of arms, then australia ought to have the equivalent image showing asian people, the most common breast shapes and sizes. the fnord were known as " fnord"
16:17:12 <HackEgo> [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
16:17:15 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, does seem like
16:17:22 <tswett> Nobody has yet been able to figure out the code.
16:17:32 <tswett> Let me give you some recipe ingredients generated by a neural net that's not mine.
16:17:39 <tswett> "1 beer, cut into cubes"
16:18:09 <tswett> "2 tablespoons of balsamic cocoa"
16:18:12 <ais523> the second half of the code seems to be composed of numbers, but some seem to have leading zeroes and some of them aren't integers
16:18:33 <tswett> "6 sprigs of freshly ground black pepper"
16:18:54 <int-e> ugh, what was the context...
16:19:26 <ais523> tswett: is the recipe neural net just combining random units of measurements with random ingredients?
16:19:57 <tswett> It seems to have an idea of what quantities ingredients tend to be used in.
16:20:16 <tswett> It's much more likely to say "a teaspoon of salt and two cups of water" than "a teaspoon of water and two cups of salt".
16:20:47 <b_jonas> tswett: is that part of a Chef program?
16:20:55 <tswett> https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
16:21:11 <tswett> "1 can enough red cayenne"
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16:21:41 <b_jonas> must be a program aimed at writing Chef programs
16:22:35 <int-e> 2015-06-24-14:45:36: <tswett> This code is better.
16:22:41 <ais523> tswett: any of the recipes theoretically possible yet? if so, any of them look even remotely edible?
16:23:33 <tswett> The ingredients list almost never matches the instructions.
16:24:15 <b_jonas> ais523: I would guess someone who understands cooking could find a recipe that looks somewhat reasonable, and then misinterpret it in a way that it deliberately becomes better.
16:24:33 <tswett> This is definitely a theoretically possible ingredients list.
16:24:35 <b_jonas> You'd need some prior understanding of what recipes result in acceptible cakes.
16:24:42 <tswett> 2 cups of chicken broth. 1/2 cup of oil.
16:24:54 <tswett> Those are the only ingredients.
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16:25:21 <ais523> that would not make for a good recipe
16:25:35 <ais523> I had some lessons on cookery at school
16:25:52 <ais523> and that has such a food group imbalance it's absurd
16:26:06 <tswett> This recipe calls for "salt and bell pepper".
16:26:22 <tswett> See, it's smarter than a Markov chain.
16:26:39 <tswett> A Markov chain doesn't really know that "bell pepper" is likely to appear after the same sort of stuff that "pepper" is.
16:27:27 <b_jonas> tswett: the problem is that many of the recipes with many ingredient mix both sweet and salty ingredients.
16:27:43 <tswett> "1 tablespoon creme de carrots"
16:28:01 <ais523> mixing sweet and salty ingredients is normally a bad idea, but it's less absolutely a bad idea than making oil 20% of your recipe
16:28:15 <ais523> you could maybe get away with making salad cream like that
16:28:18 <ais523> but I hate salad cream as it is
16:28:30 <ais523> (oil as 20%, that is, not mixing sweet and salty)
16:28:39 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, it's not always a bad idea, but you have to be careful with it
16:28:47 <b_jonas> ais523: this tries to put _chocolate_ in a salad-like thing
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16:29:06 <b_jonas> (which it calls "CHINESE MEAT" despite that it has no meat by the way)
16:29:24 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't eat chocolate any more, but a chocolate salad sandwich would probably taste reasonable
16:29:26 <tswett> "1/4 teaspoon pepper, or dough"
16:30:02 <tswett> "1/2 cup of water, whatever; grated"
16:30:19 <b_jonas> but yes, the quantities seem to be very off too
16:31:02 <b_jonas> it doesn't seem to understand that you need not only condiments, but some sort of constitutent like flour or corn or meat or vegetable or something of which you take more than just a few spoonfuls
16:31:10 <tswett> This recipe calls for a quarter teaspoon of salt, and a quarter teaspoon of salt, and salt and pepper, and salt, and three teaspoons of salt, and two tablespoons of salt, and a half cup of shredded salt.
16:31:52 <ais523> tswett: that'd make a decent condiment for crisps, I think
16:31:54 <b_jonas> "Internets appears is variety and rep." it says
16:32:18 <tswett> Looks like this recipe has 58 ingredients.
16:32:19 <b_jonas> what does "cn" mean in "2 cn Walnuts"?
16:32:19 <int-e> tswett: are any recipes calling for spam, spam, spam and spam?
16:32:32 <b_jonas> I don't understand these american ingredient listings. there's no grams anywher
16:32:45 <b_jonas> and "2 sm Chicken brisket", whatever is a "sm"?
16:32:45 <tswett> b_jonas: I assume "cans".
16:33:09 <tswett> And I think "sm" means "small".
16:33:12 <b_jonas> _cans_ of walnuts? if you say so
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16:33:38 <fizzie> I think those are right, but I also think abbreviating 'can' with 'cn' is stupid.
16:33:55 <tswett> fizzie: what two-letter abbreviation would you use?
16:34:22 <ais523> walnuts normally come in packets
16:34:30 <fizzie> But perhaps the recipe database has a VARCHAR(2) field.
16:34:31 <tswett> Basil balls of bean bread. Serves 4. Ingredients: 2 large cornmeal; bread. (End of recipe)
16:34:31 <b_jonas> in that case the ingredient list of "HUNGARIAN SOUR CHERRY POT PHIG PART" doesn't look that unreasonable
16:35:01 <int-e> hmm, many nuts come in cans though; why not walnuts...
16:35:12 <b_jonas> but it's indeed very disconcerting that after that ingredient list, the recipe starts with "Put fish"
16:35:17 <b_jonas> there's no fish mentioned before
16:35:35 <b_jonas> "Put fish into flour mixture over hot oil in a medium-size." is ok, but not after those ingredients
16:35:44 <int-e> b_jonas: it's an unexpected twist to make the story more exciting
16:35:56 <ais523> b_jonas: that instruction sounds /vaguely/ like you're intended to batter the fish
16:36:13 <ais523> although it's not worded properly for that
16:37:00 <tswett> "8 ounce piece of trout of milk (1 cup)"
16:37:17 <tswett> "2 quarts of vegetables with chocolate"
16:37:19 <ais523> any americans here, is 8 oz = 1 cup?
16:37:23 <b_jonas> int-e: I assume you'd roll the fish in the flour mixture, then fry in hot oil, which is good, it's just a bit abbreviated for experienced cooks.
16:37:50 <tswett> "1 cup of dark tomato sheets"
16:38:01 <tswett> "1 large cinnamon crumb"
16:38:07 <tswett> Like... just a big chunk of cinnamon?
16:38:08 <fizzie> "Bake in a food processor until the sauce is ready to use."
16:38:41 <b_jonas> then it says "Mix together the peaches" so I assume he ran out of cans of pineaple and decided to substitute peaches, which is a strange bait and switch of the main ingredient so I'd demand a refund, but whatever.
16:39:07 <fizzie> I like these instructions.
16:39:11 <fizzie> "Mix together the flour, sugar, the baking dish, garlic, shortening, and butter."
16:39:16 <b_jonas> then "Plave another until very smooth, about 45 minutes or until the meat is tender." which means he's forgotten about the fish already and went back to the chicken briskets
16:39:36 <ais523> neural net output tends to have a short attention span
16:39:41 <b_jonas> but "When cookies melts, fold the top in the muffin thick" is out of the blue
16:39:46 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to learn how to cook?
16:39:46 <fungot> fizzie: it would take much fnord to get closer than you already are. what you call aol when it's gone awol and wont connect! user:68.39.174.15068.39.174.150 05:24, 9 may 2007 ( utc)
16:39:49 <int-e> fizzie: the garlic is a nice touch.
16:39:54 <b_jonas> "Cut the strips on the oven and chill" is fine
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16:40:15 <tswett> "Serve with a hamburger." Yeah, sure.
16:40:17 <b_jonas> but what cookies? he didn't get to that point yet
16:40:30 <fizzie> "Turn off any flour; stir in beans, cooking oil and orange juice."
16:40:49 <b_jonas> "Pour about 1/4 lemons, cocoa, and sugar in the prepared pan." -- er what? oh, that's how you make the cookies?
16:41:11 <b_jonas> "Bake in a food processor until the sauce is ready to use." -- ah, so that's the frosting for the cookies!
16:41:19 <tswett> This is a recipe for "herbs".
16:41:24 <b_jonas> but where'd he get the cookies?
16:41:42 <tswett> "Makes about 3/4 flvidore by Electronicies for $7.96"
16:41:46 <fizzie> Full instructions, after a long, long list of ingredients: "Preheat oven to 350. Remove from pan; fold into pieces and season. Add remaining butter and sugar. Cover with baking sheets. Spread crumbled barley on a parmesan cheese it."
16:41:56 <b_jonas> oh, I see, the ingredients has walnuts, sugar, and egg yolks. probably he made cookies or muffins from those.
16:41:58 <tswett> Damn it, I hate in-recipe purchases.
16:43:24 <fizzie> "-- cook over low heat until the eggplant forms of a colander."
16:43:45 <fizzie> If only it didn't have the ungrammatical "of".
16:44:17 <b_jonas> "183 calories" -- you must mean per 100 gram or something.
16:44:44 <b_jonas> wait, "3 grams carbohydrate"? no way. where'd all the sugar and other ingredients go?
16:45:11 <fizzie> Here are the full instructions on how to make "HONEY PEPPER (LA])": "combine flour, baking powder, and cinnamon. Serve over top of instead."
16:45:33 <int-e> now that sounds like a great prank :)
16:45:51 <tswett> "... let stand at room temperature for 3 to 4 hours, or until setting forms an easter."
16:46:09 <ais523> flour + baking powder + cinnamon is actually a plausible set of things to mix together, at least
16:46:11 <b_jonas> this program really likes broth
16:46:36 <tswett> "2 tablespoons of lemon rind or taco"
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16:46:53 <tswett> "1 teaspoon potatoes (optional)"
16:47:17 <tswett> "Bake at 400 degrees for about 40 minutes, stirring constantly" – now that would be a miserable experience!
16:47:42 <tswett> "1 pound water, softened" – I can do that; I have a water softener at home.
16:47:46 <ais523> tswett: you can take it out of the oven to bake it
16:48:04 <hppavilion[1]> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaais52333333333333333333333333333333
16:48:05 <tswett> Take it out of the oven constantly?
16:48:19 <b_jonas> hehe, "BUFTHA DINGS (PASTA TOGERICK)" has only one ingredient. you wouldn't guess what that one ingredient is.
16:48:24 <ais523> we can interpret "constantly" as a malapropism for "continually"
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16:49:05 <b_jonas> "1 c Chopped redpen; cut into Pinch with plain white and -butter"
16:49:14 <b_jonas> no, I don't know what redpen means
16:49:20 <tswett> Indeed, I wouldn't have guessed that.
16:49:38 <tswett> One of the ingredients for this one is "Leaves"
16:50:08 <tswett> "2 tablespoons of chopped fresh curry or cooking spray"
16:50:27 <tswett> "2 medium sugar or food coloring"
16:50:41 <ais523> I'm going to interpret "cooking spray" as the sort of sprayable oil that's sometimes used to cut down on lipid content
16:51:21 <tswett> "1 cup of cooking oil or mint pieces (abouth)"
16:51:34 <tswett> "1 cup of miniature sour cream, solid halves"
16:53:02 <b_jonas> "Saute the dough into the freezer if colangol salmons, add the steamed with a large skillet, stir together the milk and oil. Add fruit and cook for about 1 hour. Add the mixture into bowl and add the chops and the buttermilk."
16:53:08 <b_jonas> all from just one cup of redpen
16:53:20 <ais523> I think we should probably let the neural net have some more training
16:53:30 <tswett> Redpen is a very versatile ingredient.
16:53:37 <b_jonas> oh! a redpen must be a magical crayon that lets you wish any object into existance!
16:54:22 <b_jonas> or what the scribblenaughts game uses
16:54:36 <tswett> It's actually a very viscous gel whose properties vary with temperature and acidity.
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16:54:53 <b_jonas> but "if colangol salmons" is funny enough
16:54:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/List handling]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44348&oldid=44340 * Hppavilion1 * (-23) "Made" a "meaningful" "contribution" to the article
16:55:07 <b_jonas> and "with a large skillset" must be a euphemism
16:55:31 <tswett> "Very viscous" as in it's about as thick as... uh, lemme think here.
16:56:01 <b_jonas> "The mixture with a well combined and additional in the bottom of the prepared pan. Microwave one hour." ok
16:56:14 <tswett> Peanut butter. It's about as viscous as peanut butter.
16:56:16 <b_jonas> isn't very specific about what to do, but ok
16:56:27 <b_jonas> well combined what and additional what?
16:56:39 <b_jonas> and what do I microwave? the pan?
16:57:03 <tswett> Yeah. Microwave the mixture in the pan.
16:57:05 <b_jonas> "Top with fresh beef, tuna, drain, cook the remaining mayonnaise, and top with salt. Sprinkle with sauce." -- ah, tuna with the colangol salmons!
16:57:39 <b_jonas> I guess it's obvious to someone who cooks.
16:58:36 <fizzie> "Meanwhile, depending on the oil in large bowl, combine the flour, baking dilespallas, lemon juice, and all the chicken."
16:58:40 <fizzie> Just, all the chicken.
16:58:41 <b_jonas> "Date: New York, Mark Summer" -- um, you have to be a bit more specific with the location if you invite me to a date. oh, maybe he lives in the 2000s and thinks I'll find her on facebook.
16:59:06 <fizzie> I assume that's something fancy.
16:59:38 <fizzie> Also I read "depending on oil in large bowl" as being some sort of improvised hourglass for measuring time.
16:59:52 <b_jonas> "3 tb Oil flour" -- um, what's that?
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17:00:20 <b_jonas> "1/2 c Water; or margarine" -- ah yes, a flexible recipe
17:00:52 <fizzie> "Sometimes these are a little incomprehensible.
17:00:55 <fizzie> "Peel beefer a laliar and all of each piece of salad."
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17:01:19 <fizzie> (That's the entire instructions for a CHEESE SALAD IN SAUCE SAUCE.)
17:01:28 <fizzie> What's your favourite sauce? Well, I like sauce sauce a lot.
17:01:57 <b_jonas> hehe, "AGOUNA TOPPING PASTRYY SALAD" (with "YY" in it, must be a wookie recipe) lists a long list of ingredients with like everything in it, and then says "Dissolve all the ingredients in a 1 cup pot of the foil."
17:02:03 <b_jonas> yeah no, I don't think those will just dissolve
17:02:28 <fizzie> The ingredients of the CHEESE SALAD IN SAUCE SAUCE include "1/2 c Water, whatever; grated".
17:02:34 <b_jonas> "1 c Medal 1/4-inch-wide" of what meat?
17:02:53 <b_jonas> 1/2 c Water, whatever; grated
17:03:34 <fizzie> In the same list, there's also "1 1/2 tb Water; cooked and".
17:03:59 <b_jonas> "1 ts Club cabbage" -- er what?
17:04:12 <b_jonas> and "1 ts Rolled of cornmeal" -- what rolls what?
17:04:57 <b_jonas> then of course even after this long list of ingredients that doesn't make much sense, it manages to mention mostly such items in the recpie that aren't in the list
17:05:04 <fizzie> b_jonas: Apparently the "club cabbage" is the colloquial term for the Norwich City coach service.
17:05:06 <b_jonas> eggs, banana, vinegar, basil,
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17:05:39 <b_jonas> "Combine the egg, eggs, and sift mixture."
17:06:00 <Taneb> Is there any way to combine neural networks and markov chains?
17:06:51 <b_jonas> oh, it's "skillet", not skillset
17:06:58 <b_jonas> and apparently "skillet" means some sort of pan
17:07:42 <b_jonas> "Refrigerate the sugar cubes on plate." -- if you say so
17:07:59 <fizzie> Taneb: I would guess the former are sufficiently powerful to represent the latter, if you want.
17:08:13 <b_jonas> "Remove from the heat and rosemary sheeps, almost the peaches if the potatoes and filling, add the sugar mixture, pourielant, and stir the flour mixture, stirring, turning with the top."
17:08:40 <Taneb> fizzie: they seem to do similar things in different ways
17:09:15 <b_jonas> "in a rollict pan" -- what
17:09:44 <b_jonas> I mean, I'm not good at cooking, but if these weren't all English, maybe I'd have a chance to just understand most of the funny _words_.
17:10:32 <FireFly> I see a lot of recipe-like lines in the scrollback. Is fungot testing their culinary skills?
17:10:32 <fungot> FireFly: let me quote: ' ' too complicated. likely to confuse the public, that marthinus accepted funds from mi, and there may be funny, but not me.
17:10:36 <b_jonas> Ah, this one may require dark magic, unless it has some special meaning in cooking: "1 c Packed days; almonds"
17:10:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: https://gist.github.com/nylki/1efbaa36635956d35bcc
17:11:31 <fizzie> b_jonas: Maybe it's someone confusing dates and days.
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17:11:57 <b_jonas> "If you don't wark the brown, add the sugar and sugar." -- the ingredient list only has one mention of sugar, though it mentions salt three times and pepper twice.
17:12:13 <fizzie> I mean, it's based on user-contributed data.
17:12:22 <b_jonas> "Yield: 20 Oct 199 Mayonnaise and fresh chicken freeze with fork use muffins in lengthwise."
17:12:44 <b_jonas> that's what the Packed days are for!
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17:13:51 <b_jonas> I mean, yes but War doesn't preserve its enemies.
17:14:04 <fizzie> TIL: candy is made out of flour, finely chopped onion and olive oil.
17:14:22 <fizzie> By combining all three, then simmering over medium heat.
17:14:57 <fizzie> Followed by a lot of other stuff involving cheese, fish, potatoes, cream shortening, sugar, baking powder, cinnamon, peas, egg whites, etc.
17:15:04 <fizzie> Finished by microwaving on high for 2 minutes.
17:15:05 <b_jonas> lol, this long list has "1 ts Salt; 1 ts Salt; 1 ts Salt; 1/8 ts Salt; 1 ts Salt" spread in it
17:15:14 <b_jonas> also "1 x ------------------------------" is an ingredient
17:15:28 <int-e> ah, the mystery ingredient
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17:15:41 <fizzie> Oh, you must be looking at the BASIC SAUCE WITH CHICKEN WITH CHICKEN.
17:15:45 <b_jonas> no, I think that's code for "repeat everything until the next line 1 times"
17:15:49 <fizzie> Written uppercase, the titles look like Unicode character names.
17:16:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, for the titles have ampersands, which clearly can't occur in a character name
17:16:37 <ais523> I like the idea that the chickens are used to garnish the sauce, rather than vice versa
17:17:11 <b_jonas> so has anyone found a plausible one yet?
17:17:13 <int-e> the sauce is the best part!
17:17:23 <FireFly> "1 Beer -- cut into cubes"
17:17:24 <ais523> also I can confirm that you can reasonably have two differently-prepared pieces of chicken in the same meal
17:17:36 <int-e> FireFly: ice cubes, easy
17:17:43 <b_jonas> FireFly: yep, minecraft beer
17:17:55 <fizzie> b_jonas: The disconnect between instructions and ingredients make it hard to get plausible ones.
17:17:56 <b_jonas> ais523: of course! four-chicken pizza is the BEST
17:18:12 <b_jonas> yummy chicken breast meat, prepared four different ways
17:18:17 <FireFly> Cubed beer is an interesting ingredient for barbecue ribs
17:18:30 <fizzie> I think adding enough structure to the output to share nouns there would make them a lot more plausible.
17:18:42 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, you have to find short descriptions or short ingredient lists
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17:19:01 <fizzie> And those that use the "first three ingredients" or "all the ingredients" references.
17:20:12 <b_jonas> look at this APPLE SALAD SUPRETTI for example. both the ingredient list and the description is short enough, and the instructions include "Bake in preheated oven for 1 hour" after an ingredient list with 2 c milk, 4 c flour, and sugar, which totally makes sense
17:20:23 -!- ais523 has quit.
17:20:34 <b_jonas> how it would yield 8 servings from just 4 cup of flour I have no idea, but whatever
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17:20:59 <fizzie> b_jonas: It starts by mixing chopped onion, water, tabasco and celery, none of which exist.
17:21:05 <fizzie> Everything seems to have almonds.
17:21:19 <int-e> b_jonas: serves 8 wasps
17:21:21 <fizzie> If you drop the first paragraph completely, the CHOCOLATE RANCH BARBEQUE doesn't seem *that* far out.
17:21:22 <mauris> wowow i'm looking at this
17:21:26 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, the onion seems like a bad idea for this, but still
17:21:49 <fizzie> "2 tb Parmesan cheese -- chopped; 1 c coconut milk; 3 eggs, beaten": "Combine the cheese and salt together the dough in a large skillet; add the ingredients and stir in the chocolate and pepper."
17:22:00 <fizzie> I guess they just didn't want to mention the salt and pepper.
17:22:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, that on eis short enough too
17:22:16 <fizzie> (The first paragraph is completely contradictory, though.)
17:23:19 <b_jonas> "1 ts Freshly ground black pepper -- and cut into 1/2" pieces" -- what? cut into half inch pieces after grounding the pepper?
17:23:24 <fizzie> Or the CHICKEN WINGS PANOUT, if you ignore the epilogue.
17:23:37 <b_jonas> even whole black pepper has pieces smaller than half an inch
17:23:44 <fizzie> The full instructions are: "Combine all ingredients; beat until smooth. Reserve salt and grated cheese. Cool completely."
17:24:38 <b_jonas> fizzie: hehe, that one has funny things after. "NUMBERNANT COOKING IN THE SWITTER DOG MONE 6."
17:24:38 <fizzie> Not sure the cookie ice cream goes that well with garlic and soy sauce, though.
17:25:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think you can then jump to "add the chocolate and then cook until almost about 10 minutes or until slightly thickened." from later in the recipe
17:26:02 <ais523> "almost about 10 minutes" is a great unit of time
17:26:02 <b_jonas> but this thing really doesn't understand quantities
17:27:08 <fizzie> Making Hungarian skime corn potatoes involves, among a lot of other things and in this order, blending all ingredients, adding all ingredients, combining all ingredients, placing "remaining" ingredients in a plastic wrap in a skillet, and adding the still remaining ingredients.
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17:29:23 <b_jonas> "1 lb Lean bag in microwave"
17:29:26 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, in a http://www.xkcd.com/870/ panel 1 way
17:30:12 <b_jonas> hehe, "2 lb Potatoes; almost" -- I haven't seen that in a recipe yet
17:30:41 <b_jonas> hmm, that's not bad actually
17:30:47 <b_jonas> look at COUNTRY DIP COOKIES
17:31:42 <b_jonas> "2 lb Potatoes; almost; 1 lg Orange slices; 1/4 c Coarse carrot; leaves. This is too things to make pasta, spread with sauce. Beef the food processor and a skin to blend.
17:32:02 <b_jonas> Refrigerate for 30 to 30 minutes or until the mushrooms are not boil. Serve with fruits. Serves 3."
17:32:14 <b_jonas> (it says "Yield: 6 Servings" in the header, but ok
17:32:30 <fizzie> It's also in the "poultry" category.
17:32:54 <fizzie> I think the mushrooms would not be boil almost immediately.
17:32:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, it's a sauce spread you use to serve chicken pasta with
17:33:15 <b_jonas> the next one has a funny title: "BROAK PLANT BROCK STUFFED BLANT FOR 1"
17:33:26 <b_jonas> and no instructions at all
17:33:46 <ais523> if it has a consistent ingredient list
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17:33:49 <ais523> we might actually be able to cook it
17:33:55 <fizzie> Is there more than one way you can proceed if you're given granulated sugar, salad oil, lemon juice, salt, and hot soy sauce?
17:34:00 <ais523> given that we can make the instructions up
17:34:17 <b_jonas> fizzie: don't forget the Steamed, Biscuits
17:34:20 <b_jonas> they're the main ingredient
17:34:29 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I think there's more of a chance of there being less than one way you can proceed
17:34:36 <fizzie> That's 16 boull of hot soy sauce, too.
17:34:51 <b_jonas> fizzie: that's optional if you don't like hot food
17:34:58 <fizzie> It yields 16 servings, so I guess it's one "boull" per serving.
17:35:09 <fizzie> If that's the same as a bowl, it sounds a bit spicy.
17:36:06 <b_jonas> hmm, the next ingreient list, the one with "CURRIED CREAM CORN COOKIES" has somewhat reasonable ingredients, provided you igonre the quantities of the Kikkoman salt and the pepper, which must be typos
17:36:33 <b_jonas> hmm, and the insrtuctions aren't too bad too,
17:37:11 <b_jonas> this CURRIED CREAM CORN COOKIES seems nice, but miscategorized as "Cumin"
17:37:14 <fizzie> On the other hand, it's the one where the eggplant forms a colander.
17:37:27 <fizzie> You may need to cook over low heat for a long time before that happens.
17:37:49 <b_jonas> fizzie: yeah, I'd like to think the "Top with" part is an optional addition
17:38:10 <b_jonas> hehe, it has chopped salt!
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17:39:30 <b_jonas> what does "consistenches" mean?
17:40:55 <b_jonas> "CARAMELLED CORN PIPS & A LAN SAUCE" has a simple ingredient list of ground beef and condiments only, then a long set of instructions that go very overboard for that
17:41:40 <b_jonas> It seems really complicated to make.
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18:35:56 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making a program to help people with the λ-calculus
18:36:41 <hppavilion[1]> Should I make it so there's a "λ" button that types "λ" at the current cursor, or so that "\L" is replaced with "λ", or both?
18:37:29 <zzo38> Assign a single key perhaps, such as F1 key or tab key
18:39:42 <hppavilion[1]> Because if you have a laptop, you can't hit f1 very easily
18:40:09 <shachaf> Just make people type Ctrl-Shift-U 3 B B <space>
18:40:22 <shachaf> DrRacket uses Ctrl-\ for lambda
18:42:34 <hppavilion[1]> I'll add a .cfg where you can bind lambda to a keycombo
18:43:42 <hppavilion[1]> Thank you, shachaf. You are truly the patron saint of typing non-ascii characters.
18:48:19 <mauris> well, will \ have any other meaning?
18:48:45 <mauris> if your program is really really lambda-calculus-specific \ might as well just type a λ
18:49:51 <mauris> and have \\ type a real backspace, because λλ makes no sense
18:49:53 <J_Arcane> I have Ctrl+L set to actually insert a whole lambda template. https://github.com/jarcane/Racketstuff/blob/master/my-keybinds.rkt
18:53:34 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: It's almost the same as standard λ-calculus. It /does/, however, support naming functions
18:55:46 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I should make "<enter>" require that I hit "<enter>" one or two more times before sending
18:55:54 <mauris> if you mean re: my lines: yeah, i do mean the literal "\"! nobody's gonna want to write backslashes in your environment, it sounds like. so you might as well catch simple "\" keypresses and turn them into fancy lambda's
18:56:15 <mauris> i mean, lambdas. dutch has ruined me
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19:16:27 <mauris> ais523: thank god for "Open URL..." in jettyplay ;v;
19:16:52 <ais523> mauris: I'm a little surprised jettyplay still works, really
19:17:06 <ais523> it's showing signs of age already (such as keyboard controls not working in the latest Ubuntu, you have to use the mouse)
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19:17:12 <ais523> also, mindbogglingly high RAM consumption
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19:19:02 <S1> Did someone of you ever try to implement Sha1 in Brainfuck?
19:22:45 <shachaf> ais523: I meant more "what's with that function" than "what is that function".
19:23:11 <ais523> shachaf: we actually asked the devteam about it
19:23:22 <ais523> their response can be summed up as "at least it's not patented"
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19:41:56 <fizzie> mauris: https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Rnz
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20:24:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44349&oldid=44347 * SuperJedi224 * (+45)
20:25:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Math++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44350&oldid=44326 * SuperJedi224 * (-7) /* Truth Machine */
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21:26:33 <zzo38> Is there program existing for use with Linux you can generate UUIDs that you can also set a different MAC address (it still has to be a device you have control over at the time mentioned in the UUID though, and is guaranteed not to generate its own UUIDs during that time)?
21:29:17 <ais523> zzo38: Linux's default UUID generator doesn't embed a MAC into it; however, a program like you want is probably easy to write
21:29:30 <zzo38> Actually I figured out there is a file /proc/sys/kernel/random/uuid but I want a version 1 UUID
21:31:04 <ais523> the spec for a version 1 UUID is pretty simple
21:31:20 <zzo38> Yes, I know how it works
21:31:59 <zzo38> There is the issue of what to do during a leap second, but my idea would be just to sleep for 1 second if the current time is behind the recorded time by less than one second
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21:40:01 <S1> zzo38: I don't really get that leap second problem, could you please explain again for dummies?
21:40:31 <S1> First of all, what do you mean by "recorded time"?
21:41:44 <zzo38> I mean the timestamp of the last generated UUID
21:42:20 <S1> Ah now I get it
21:42:28 <S1> I mistranslated leap second
21:43:23 <S1> Hi, hppavilion[1] o7
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21:52:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an evoltuion by natural selection simulator for a school project
21:54:09 <S1> If you are the one making the selection then it is not natural by definition
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21:54:39 <S1> I mean I'd not call it natural if you were even only to set the parameters
21:54:39 <fizzie> That's why it has the word "simulator" in it, I guess.
21:55:26 <hppavilion[1]> S1: Fair enough xD. It is Evolution by Digital Selection
21:55:39 <hppavilion[1]> It progresses as the result of some fairly primitive AI though
21:56:08 <S1> I was not talking about.... nevermind
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21:57:20 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, it isn't, strictly speaking, "nature", but it /is/ a self-contained little universe
21:59:05 <S1> No it's alright
22:00:35 <S1> Is it open source?
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22:02:54 <S1> hppavilion[1]:
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22:06:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44351&oldid=44329 * Timwi * (+6822) /* Lambda expressions */ Lazy-evaluated sequences.
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22:35:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44352&oldid=44351 * Timwi * (+4) /* Lambda expressions */ don’t look, embarrassing mistake
22:48:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44353&oldid=44352 * Timwi * (+0) /* Lambda expressions */
22:55:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton/Lazy-evaluated sequences]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44354&oldid=44346 * Timwi * (+756) add ⌑
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23:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44355&oldid=44353 * Timwi * (+30) /* Lazy-evaluated sequences */
23:10:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Funciton]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44356&oldid=44355 * Timwi * (+4)
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00:44:17 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should generalize Ackerman to the complex numbers
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01:01:46 * oerjan wonders if Ackerman grows too fast to be analytic
01:06:39 <izabera> isn't that function defined in N^2 ?
01:07:55 <oerjan> hm uniform convergence on compact sets, i think that implies a function defined on just naturals cannot grow too fast to be analytic
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01:12:31 <oerjan> ok they can grow arbitrarily fast https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entire_function#Growth
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01:19:46 <doesthiswork> I found a very cool paper in "lisp and symbolic programming". It is about how several partial descriptions of a function can be automatically combined to synthesize it. http://cs.au.dk/~hosc/local/LaSC-3-1-pp21-37.pdf
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01:35:13 <izabera> i didn't, i'm reading it on a computer
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01:39:22 <Jafet> http://www.cs.umd.edu/~saurabhs/pubs/popl10-synthesis.pdf
01:44:35 <Jafet> The Google search cache happens to have a PDF renderer
01:46:26 <doesthiswork> http://www.google.com/search?q=relative+specification+and+transformational+reuse+of+functional
01:48:49 <doesthiswork> digging around I see that the authors are haskell people
01:59:10 <tswett> Taneb: you're wondering if there's a way to combine neural networks and Markov chains? Sure—do the same sort of thing that Karpathy's char-rnn program does, but have an additional input which is the Markov chain prediction of the next letter.
01:59:20 <tswett> Actually, I like that idea.
02:02:03 <hppavilion[1]> I want to challenge a CS student to implement Ackermann as a set of For Loops
02:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> Not telling them, of course, that it's <whatever it's called>, which, AFAICT, means that you can't do that
02:03:16 <izabera> of course you can do that if you set a max value for both parameters
02:04:33 <tswett> Non-primitive-recursive.
02:04:46 <tswett> And yeah, the usual definition of the Ackermann function is recursive.
02:21:15 <MDream> Making an interpreter in Javascript and I'm wondering how to convert a variable name to an index.
02:22:14 <MDream> I'm pretty much making the language as I go.
02:22:53 <hppavilion[1]> So I want to make my MC processor a "bit" esoteric. What should I model it after?
02:22:57 <tswett> I mean, the base case is A(0,0) or something.
02:23:06 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: probably subleq.
02:23:15 <tswett> Assuming you can do arithmetic.
02:23:25 <tswett> If you can't do arithmetic, then... lemme think a few moments.
02:23:42 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: I can, as a matter of fact, do arithmetic due to the /scoreboard player operation command
02:24:10 <MDream> Right now the code is on my computer.
02:24:36 <tswett> Subleq would be pretty nice.
02:24:41 <tswett> Or RSSB. Good ol' RSSB.
02:25:15 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_instruction_set_computer#Reverse_subtract_and_skip_if_borrow
02:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> I want to do something entirely unconventional, though
02:26:10 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps forgoing the concept of regiestries and a stack entirely
02:28:53 <MDream> A funge could operate on a queue instead of stacks.
02:29:53 <MDream> Maybe a priority queue.
02:40:29 <tswett> "Remove from heat and boil to cool."
02:40:32 <tswett> Yeah, good luck with that.
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02:58:39 <doesthiswork> In this paper, we describe the problem and the effect of eta-redexes in terms of monovariant binding-time propagation: eta-redexes preserve the static data flow of a source program by interfacing static higher-order values in dynamic contexts and dynamic higher-order values in static contexts.
03:00:54 <MDream> Where should I put up code for people to comment on it?
03:01:00 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
03:10:34 <doesthiswork> programming languages that feature higher-order facilities--first-class functions and continuations, effects and higher-order types, ob-jects, and actors. Such languages include Lisp, Scheme, ML, Haskell, Java and Dylan.
03:17:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Codesine/implementation]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44357 * MDude * (+1864) Created page with "So far I have this running along with html that's just an input box with the ID read and a button to call EVAL(). I'm wondering if I should bother trying to implement named va..."
03:18:47 <MDude> Feel free to leave comment son the talk page, I'll go to bed for now.
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03:20:24 <Sgeo> Is ais523 around?
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03:59:09 <\oren\> @tell b_jonas I just updated the page again. I've added about 30 more chinese charatcers
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04:53:51 <zzo38> Have you ever heard of a chess variant called "Emperor Wars"? I believe I may have the only copy of the rules, and I have lost it. I do not know who wrote it either, or how I got it, but I can remember a few things about it.
04:55:13 <zzo38> Plebians are normally neutral pieces but when other pieces are adjacent they are owned by whoever own those other pieces; another piece is "Vestal Virgin" which move like queens does in chess but cannot capture anything nor can any adjacent piece capture anything.
04:58:52 <zzo38> I wrote a back story of a Dungeons&Dragons character I made it inspired by such true event too; it says: he made up a three-dimensional chess variant where some pieces can fly and some pieces can swim and some pieces normal movement, and he only made two copies, one was given away and one was lost, and no information can be found in library. So, this is kind of similar but also many difference
04:59:17 <zzo38> Such as, Emperor Wars is not three-dimensional game and I did not make it up by myself
05:00:17 <zzo38> Next time I find it (if I ever do) then I will put it into the computer.
05:05:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44358&oldid=43681 * Oerjan * (+41) some proofreading
05:10:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44359&oldid=43642 * Oerjan * (+101) Undo revision 43600 by [[Special:Contributions/70.185.102.142|70.185.102.142]] ([[User talk:70.185.102.142|talk]]) (It's in the spec.)
05:14:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44360&oldid=44359 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Criticism */ case
05:17:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44361&oldid=43614 * Oerjan * (+96) unsigned
05:18:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric data structure]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44362&oldid=43604 * Oerjan * (+0) case
05:21:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44363&oldid=43609 * Oerjan * (+47) It's not signed without a date hth
05:28:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44364&oldid=43651 * Oerjan * (-28) Removing Title Case but leaving Ironic Case. Also a bit proofreading.
05:29:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44365&oldid=44364 * Oerjan * (+0) missed one
05:30:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44366&oldid=44365 * Oerjan * (+4) erring in opposite direction, also link
05:39:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Policy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44367&oldid=43615 * Oerjan * (+213) unsigned, response
05:44:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44368&oldid=44097 * Oerjan * (+50) unsigned
06:06:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44369&oldid=43630 * Oerjan * (+4) /* Data Organization */ link
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06:08:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abstract machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44370&oldid=43632 * Oerjan * (+0) case
06:10:04 <izabera> (+7/-7) would be much more informative than (+0)
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06:14:13 <b_jonas> \oren\: that's much more than 30, but ok
06:15:17 <b_jonas> \oren\: indeed, more numbers and other characters
06:16:20 <\oren\> I'm not good with the counting and shit
06:18:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Disney queue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44371&oldid=43637 * Oerjan * (+0) case
06:19:17 <b_jonas> you'll have to find someone who can proofread these, and the rest of the font. I gave up way back, after the Welsh characters.
06:20:45 <b_jonas> I wouldn't be able to tell if any of these is the wrong character for the code place or is drawn wrong, and that applies to most of the font.
06:23:10 <\oren\> Well I'm trying to decrease the likelihood of those for the kanji by only drawing kanji which I actually know the meaning of.
06:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Generic Brainfuck Derivative]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44372&oldid=43639 * Oerjan * (+4) link, case
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06:29:58 <b_jonas> \oren\: wait, I list a character. didn't you have 門 somewhere? I guess I just imagined that
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06:33:19 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wälcåme: not found
06:33:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blame: not found
06:35:05 <HackEgo> bakatotest: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:35:25 <b_jonas> `` welcome b_jonas | en2sv
06:35:26 <HackEgo> b_jånas: Wälcåme to the internatiånal hub for esotäric prågramming languagä däsign and däplåymänt! Får morä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://äsålangs.org/>. (Får thä åthär kind åf äsåtärica, try #äsotäric ån ÄFnät år DALnät.)
06:36:52 <oerjan> b_jonas: no one deleted it. i suggest not spelling commands in ways you cannot remember hth
06:37:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: what? how else would it be spelled?
06:37:49 <HackEgo> bakatåtäst: Welcåme tå thä intärnatiånal hub får esotäric programming languagä design and däplåyment! For mårä infårmatiån, chäck åut åur wiki: <http://esålangs.årg/>. (For thä åther kind åf esotärica, try #esotäric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:38:55 <oerjan> also `blame is spelt `culprits hth
06:39:41 <oerjan> surely not the best we can do.
06:39:52 <oerjan> `` WeLcOmE bakatotest | rainwords
06:39:53 <HackEgo> BaKaToTeSt: WeLcOmE To tHe iNtErNaTiOnAl hUb fOr eSoTeRiC PrOgRaMmInG LaNgUaGe dEsIgN AnD DePlOyMeNt! FoR MoRe iNfOrMaTiOn, ChEcK OuT OuR WiKi: <hTtP://EsOlAnGs.oRg/>. (fOr tHe oThEr kInD Of eSoTeRiCa, TrY #eSoTeRiC On eFnEt oR DaLnEt.)
06:40:24 <bakatotest> You would probably recognize me as the guy with an awful username who created SELECT.
06:42:25 <oerjan> <b_jonas> en2sv should remove those <-- i think replacing them by "a" is the swedish way hth
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06:44:21 <oerjan> it's so long ago that the page history has split in two
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06:51:03 <b_jonas> “<\oren\> Well I'm trying to decrease the likelihood of those for the kanji by only drawing kanji which I actually know the meaning of.” => doesn't that contradict your previously stated goal of adding all 2000 jōyō kanji?
06:54:56 <\oren\> Well given my current rate of 50 kanji a day...
06:55:30 <Jafet> You could always just learn all of the kanji before drawing them.
06:55:47 <b_jonas> \oren\: oh by the way, do the fullwidth circle punctuation that is used as the digit zero in some contexts where kanji digits are used in Japanese vertical writing
06:56:04 <\oren\> Jafet: that's a good plan
06:57:26 <HackEgo> U+3007 IDEOGRAPHIC NUMBER ZERO \ UTF-8: e3 80 87 UTF-16BE: 3007 Decimal: 〇 \ 〇 \ Category: Nl (Number, Letter) \ Numeric value: 0 \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
06:57:27 <b_jonas> yes, that might work if you're dedicated
06:58:18 <b_jonas> it's used when writing numbers with multiple digits as each digit in kanji in a vertical label, because hindu-arabic numerals would look wrong in a vertical Japanese text
06:58:26 <b_jonas> but it's a punctuation used in Chinese too
06:59:12 <b_jonas> it's sort of weird because it really isn't a kanji, but is used as one, so I call it punctuation
06:59:38 <\oren\> it's in the cjk punctuation block
07:02:05 <\oren\> So yeah I'mma upload a new file each time I reach 50
07:02:21 <\oren\> 町画白的目相矢石知私穴立竹米糸缶羊羽而虫耳肉花血行言西見谷豆足赤車里釆長金門雨雪雷電馬魚骨鳥黒黄皿〇
07:02:34 <b_jonas> you see that character a lot as a tourist because many prices end in two zeros
07:03:12 <\oren\> it occurs in scores in Touhou
07:05:31 <bakatotest> <\oren\> what do you use to learn japanese
07:07:23 <bakatotest> there aren't many japanese courses here in Brazil
07:07:49 <\oren\> bakatotest: These days I read Japanese newspapers and manga.
07:08:28 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: is that a list of Kanjis with at least one square or circle?
07:09:18 <\oren\> no, it's a list of the kanji I jsut added to my font
07:09:46 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
07:10:54 <\oren\> I hand drew more than 4000 charatcers
07:11:23 <\oren\> most are variants of base charatcers but still
07:11:55 <\oren\> the green ones are newer than the white ones
07:12:01 <lifthrasiir> it will be gradually harder when you draw more complex letters
07:12:55 <lifthrasiir> for Hanguls, there are well-known compositional approaches (e.g. 8-4-8 composition etc.)
07:13:53 <\oren\> I have 4702 characters in total so far
07:18:41 <\oren\> eventually this will be the perfect font for crazy programmmers who want to name variables random unicode things
07:19:19 <\oren\> My dad once used i, iota, and double dot i in a paper but I think he was deliberately trolling
07:26:09 <Jafet> i is just the derivative of ı.
07:28:40 <\oren\> my font does have ẊẋẌẍ
07:29:24 <\oren\> which i doubt are used for anything outside physics
07:30:59 <zgrep> \oren\: Maybe certain languages.
07:35:11 <bakatotest> most characters are really useless anyways.
07:40:07 <fowl> What is # called
07:40:52 <bakatotest> hashtag, number (as in "you're my #1")
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07:42:38 <bakatotest> the wiki says it's "number sign" or "hash key"
07:44:12 <bakatotest> not too much an esoteric topic, though
07:53:36 <bakatotest> If a tree falls down and there's no one there to hear
07:57:00 <bakatotest> Doesn't matter, everybody's gonna see the log!
07:57:54 <blurelIse> especially when its encoded in binary moving across thousands of miles of cords
07:58:24 <bakatotest> you destroyed my philosophical inquiry about existence
07:58:28 <blurelIse> and if i tried to listen to it through the wifi, i still wouldn't hear it, because A the freq is too high, and B, there would be loads of other info streaming
07:59:21 <bakatotest> And C - Your ears do not detect electromagnetic waves
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08:01:05 <bakatotest> no matter how high or low the frequency of the electromagnetic waves, they would not be able to move your inner ear organs
08:01:23 <blurelIse> its very hard to argue with people who dont understand that Em waves are indeed vibratory in nature
08:01:54 <bakatotest> a vibratory wave that propagates in a vacuum
08:02:30 <bakatotest> can you tell me how do you make "nothing" vibrate?
08:03:23 <zzo38> You don't make "nothing" to vibrate you can vibrate electromagnetic fields, I think
08:03:41 <blurelIse> httop://lmgtfy.com/q?=light%20wave%20property
08:04:28 <blurelIse> i'll let you research ti for a bit and get back to me
08:04:48 <blurelIse> and in the meantime i'll work on my typing
08:05:57 <zzo38> And sound waves can vibrate the air instead.
08:06:01 <blurelIse> remove the o from teh http and try again
08:06:10 <zzo38> I don't even know what URI scheme is "httop:"
08:06:28 <blurelIse> im leaning across my desk with arms extended typing
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08:10:31 <bakatotest> But got to go before I can explain you how
08:11:16 <blurelIse> how sound waves are too weak to propogate through certain mediums, but Em waves can even propogate through a vaccuum?
08:11:53 <bakatotest> The classical or the quantum explanation?
08:12:40 <blurelIse> much bias, no research, such assumption. wow
08:13:31 <bakatotest> I will be watching for the log tomorrow
08:13:43 <blurelIse> like i said, hard to argue.. causes much cognative dissonance
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11:30:56 <blurelIse> what rolls down stairs, and over in pairs, and over your neighbors dog
11:35:51 <bakatotest> this is giving me "cognative" dissonance
11:36:12 <blurelIse> im sure you could find a good ren and stimpy video that will ease all your suffereing
11:37:31 <blurelIse> ok, well they had a spoof commercial, for a toy called log, to the tune of the slinky commercial
11:38:09 * int-e wonders what the little guys are planning in Monday's Girl Genius comic
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11:41:40 <bakatotest> kind of remembers me that song from ed edd and eddy
11:41:54 <bakatotest> where the guy has a friend which is a plank
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11:48:03 <bakatotest> my question: what is the inharmonic sound naturally observed in geared device?
11:48:55 <blurelIse> or do you speak of general resonance
11:49:47 <bakatotest> really, if you look closely, the "a" and "i" are pretty far apart
11:50:13 <blurelIse> almost as good as the question: why wont democrats ever go to mars?
11:53:02 <blurelIse> are you kinda bummed about the double slit being solved?
11:54:47 <blurelIse> are you kinda bummed they figured it out in a slightly different manner than was originally theorized?
11:55:21 <bakatotest> how can you expect me to deduce what you mean from such a vague question
11:55:52 <blurelIse> oh.. well i guess i assumed you had heard the news about it
11:56:18 <bakatotest> Sure, the most important experiments turn out different than expected
11:57:05 <blurelIse> its been chalked up to simple wave particle duality
11:57:07 <bakatotest> haven't reached Brazil yet, here we don't even have computers
11:58:13 <blurelIse> i was a little bummed, i really liked the quantum implications
11:58:55 <bakatotest> so there is no "particle crossing both slits simultaneously to interfere with itself"?
12:00:23 <blurelIse> im sure theoretically and possibly probability wise thats still sound
12:00:37 <blurelIse> just cant use the good ol double slit as evidence anymore
12:01:18 <blurelIse> afaik the math for foresaid is still there
12:04:06 <blurelIse> im really disliking this whole heavy stuff on a blanket model
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12:06:54 <blurelIse> thats secret code for "iphones dont have an irc app that has a background keepalive connection and the moment I move to another app I will disconnect"
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12:12:14 <blurelIse> seems like an expensive venture for an irc dedicated device
12:14:29 <bakatotest> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/147989/what-is-the-proper-plural-form-of-apparatus
12:15:18 * blurelIse pats you on the head, saying: there they're their, it'll be ok
12:18:35 <bakatotest> now im in the studying room waiting for the alarm
12:20:54 <bakatotest> Because you are such an insistent fella
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12:34:28 <bakatotest> who wants to talk about the art of puzzle solving?
12:36:26 <bakatotest> So there was a man who went into a bar
12:39:02 <bakatotest> asking for some water. The barman inspected him closely, then pointed him a gun. The man than thanked him and went out the bar happy.
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12:46:43 <fungot> int-e: i think this is used in the past?) because it is a
12:48:39 <int-e> . o O ( help, I cannot completely understand puzzles )
12:49:26 <bakatotest> you can ask questions, like "was the man really thirsty", to help finding the answer
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12:57:57 * int-e idly wonders how old that particular lateral thinking puzzle is... several decades at least...
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13:02:00 <bakatotest> plot twist: The man was dead all along, and the barman was a medium who made he realize that
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13:11:43 <bakatotest> An original puzzle: What do these words have in common? THE INANIMATE HAM WILL HAVE ALL MY WINE, YET NEITHER FILM PANS IN LINE
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14:12:01 <tswett> All of those words are made up entirely of straight lines.
14:18:20 <HackEgo> [U+1E8A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER X WITH DOT ABOVE] [U+1E8B LATIN SMALL LETTER X WITH DOT ABOVE] [U+1E8C LATIN CAPITAL LETTER X WITH DIAERESIS]
14:22:15 <tswett> Learning all the hiragana is easy. I've done it several times.
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14:53:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44373&oldid=43801 * Orlando * (-43)
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16:08:42 <Taneb> I'm tempted to apply for the Haskell Prime Committee
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16:37:58 <shachaf> You'd probably be better than certain candidates.
16:48:46 <hppavilion[1]> (That would add Parallel Processing/asynch instructions, such as (in high-level assembly): IN-PLACE IMMEDIATE ADD R[0..128] 5; , which takes advantage of multiple cores to increase all registries from 0 to 128 by 1
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17:24:46 <zzo38> How can you make quick-save/quick-restore with DOSBox?
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17:50:23 <FreeFull> zzo38: I don't recall dosbox being able to do that
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18:43:04 <zzo38> Some MediaWiki sites (not only Wikipedia and their sister projects) do HTTPS only, but it is not a private message so I want to receive it in clear text so that MITM backup is possible.
18:44:15 <zzo38> And if it is a private email or something else that should be secure, there are much better ways than HTTPS to do it anyways. For one thing you should try to agree the keys in person if possible.
18:53:34 <zzo38> The internet would save a lot of energy if they did not have to insist on HTTPS. (They could save even more energy if they don't even use HTML and use plain text instead, but that cannot always be used; nevertheless sometimes it can work)
18:55:06 <shachaf> Would the Internet really save that much energy?
18:55:42 <shachaf> Only some constant multiple, presumably.
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19:08:16 <fizzie> "On our production frontend machines, SSL/TLS accounts for less than 1% of the CPU load, less than 10 KB of memory per connection and less than 2% of network overhead." -Adam Langley, Google.
19:10:04 <fizzie> I remember there being some discussion/speculation on how much electricity would be saved if Google switched to a black background.
19:10:52 <shachaf> It's not as if Google cares about being extremely efficient there.
19:10:52 <zzo38> Well, that can be the client setting, if the user want black background they can put it themself black
19:11:12 <zzo38> (Or any other colours/patterns they want for background)
19:11:29 <zzo38> If Google changes it to black and the user does not want then user can change it back to white
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19:13:15 <FreeFull> I don't own any device without a backlight, or with a backlight but which would turn it down if the background is black
19:14:40 <zzo38> I will just turn off the monitor when not using it, although I use black background for xterm anyways (the system status bar is also black)
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19:28:45 <int-e> From what I've read, many TFT displays (but not all) use more electricity for black than for white, but the backlight dominates the power consumption.
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19:42:18 <b_jonas> FreeFull: no device without a blacklight? you're too old for calculators with non-color lcds?
19:44:28 <int-e> <autocorrecting> s/old/young/ </autocorrecting>
19:45:02 <FreeFull> b_jonas: Ok, I do have a calculator. Forgot about it
19:45:09 <FreeFull> I can't load google on my calculator though
19:45:20 <shachaf> <int-e> <autocorrecting> s/old/young/ </autocorrecting> </int-e>
19:45:43 <FreeFull> Also, LCD screens usually let light through by default, and don't if an electric field is applied
19:46:01 <FreeFull> Although it's possible to orient the polarising filters in a different way to have it the other way around
19:46:56 <b_jonas> FreeFull: it's a bit more complicated. some black and white LCDs, mostly the ones used in book readers, are made such that they consume electricity for changing the image
19:47:55 <b_jonas> however, in a mobile phone, if you have the blacklight off, the screen is often not updated, but that's not because of the tft, it's because of the cpu and grahpics chips use less power that way
19:47:58 <FreeFull> b_jonas: There's also e-ink screens, which aren't LCDs at all
19:48:03 <int-e> my monitor actually does switch off its backlight when the screen becomes all black (more of a nuisance than a feature, honestly... I'd prefer it to only do that when there's no signal...) but that's practically never going to happen with a browser window open, because of the window decoration.
19:48:11 <FreeFull> b_jonas: Also, it's not a blacklight, it's a backlight
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19:58:44 <b_jonas> oh! sorry, that was a typo, yes
19:59:38 <fizzie> My monitor turns down the backlight occasionally.
20:00:02 <fizzie> I only notice it when getting an all-black screen, which noticeably darkens after a second or three.
20:00:11 <fizzie> It's more distracting than useful. But this is a crappy monitor.
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20:00:32 <fizzie> Leaks light quite a lot, and the backlight strips are clearly visible on dark solid color regions (like black).
20:00:36 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, that's apparently a "feature" and selling point in some new led monitors, and can be very annoying:
20:01:24 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure this isn't LED.
20:01:25 <b_jonas> I've seen it only once in some monitor displaying some public information, which I've seen in the day during some sunlight, and when most of the screen was darker, the bright on dark text scrolling on the bottom became very dark and unreadable.
20:02:05 <b_jonas> They're advertising it as an energy saving feature.
20:02:20 <fizzie> I've only noticed this doing that for the full-black screen, and it seems to take more like 5 seconds.
20:02:35 <fizzie> And maybe 2 seconds to un-darken when the screen turns non-black.
20:02:53 <fizzie> It's pretty annoying if there's a black screen for a scene transition in a video or something.
20:03:55 <b_jonas> yeah, with leds at least the transition is much faster
20:04:28 <fizzie> The tech specs don't mention this as a feature, unless it's the "Intelligent Auto: yes" line, which is a bit opaque (pun not intended).
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21:53:09 <b_jonas> \oren\: I see you've added more kanji, including 門 and 〇 which I mentioned specifically
21:56:27 <boily> \helloren\! you're up to doing kanji?
21:56:35 <b_jonas> boily: yes, he's doing kanji now
21:56:43 <b_jonas> boily: http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
21:56:47 <lambdabot> hkgit03 said 1d 10h 23m 15s ago: Opening the PDF in the topic worked. I remember reading that for the first time two years ago. I like it.
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21:57:19 <boily> @ask hkgit03 is it already at least two years old? damn, time flies like a banana...
21:58:35 * boily fruitly mapoles shachaf
21:58:51 <oerjan> boily: you should use a bow for that hth
21:58:55 <b_jonas> apparently he even does Chinese characters that don't occur (much) in Japanese
21:59:27 <boily> itym guillaume tell hth
21:59:51 <oerjan> i immediately considered whether i should have said "william"
22:00:03 <oerjan> i _do_ suspect he was german-speaking, though
22:00:36 <shachaf> well, the language he spoke is certainly germane
22:00:43 <oerjan> "in the four languages of Switzerland: German: Wilhelm Tell; French: Guillaume Tell; Italian: Guglielmo Tell; Romansh: Guglielm Tell"
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22:02:30 <oerjan> the other names mentioned in the tale do look distinctively german
22:04:03 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, but William Tell himself is Swiss, isn't he?
22:05:14 <boily> \oren\: 「囲碁盤」の字を加えてください
22:06:30 <b_jonas> izabera: those are quotation marks
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22:07:25 <boily> William, William, 威廉, and வில்லியம்.
22:07:55 <boily> (Weechat fails horribly at indic script rendering. not exactly surprised there.)
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22:09:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: you are aware that switzerland has four national languages, one of which is german, right?
22:09:52 <b_jonas> wait, four? doesn't it have three?
22:10:00 <b_jonas> swiss german, french, italian
22:10:17 <shachaf> swiss, german, french, italian
22:10:28 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:10:38 <oerjan> anyway i was just wondering how he'd have called himself.
22:11:05 <myname> isn't there one missing?
22:11:20 <b_jonas> "swiss german" as in german but very strangely pronounced
22:11:31 <b_jonas> it's like Australian English but worse than that
22:11:43 <shachaf> b_jonas: i was just going for the swat hth
22:12:41 <myname> what about rhaeto-romance?
22:12:47 <oerjan> mroman: hey you're the expert on this twh
22:13:31 <myname> as far as i know, swiss tv has to send program in that language
22:14:11 <boily> oerjan: maybe he's in the middle of saying one of those long German words, and won't be active until next month?
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22:15:08 <myname> aj, itks called romansh
22:15:11 <myname> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Switzerland
22:20:26 <hppavilion[1]> I figured out a primative for Event-Driven Programming
22:24:36 <hppavilion[1]> "goto :mouseClicked when R[0]" where R[0] is programmed to be set to 1 when the mouse is clicked
22:29:51 <hppavilion[1]> So how is goto-when for event-oriented programming?
22:31:37 <myname> well, you did an event loop
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22:32:53 <myname> how is while(true) { goto-if } different from goto-when?
22:34:42 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Well goto-when is a primative of event-driven control flow AFAICT, while while() is a non-primative of standard control flow
22:35:12 <hppavilion[1]> Also, goto-when registers an event handler that is executed whenever it goes off
22:35:24 <hppavilion[1]> so it's more like putting a goto-if between every single line of code
22:38:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically an event handler with a more simple syntax
22:38:58 <zzo38> Depending on the event hopefully the compiler should be able to insert goto-if only where necessary
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22:42:52 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's a primative. You have an "RBO" or "register branch on" instruction built into the computer
22:46:26 <boily> `learn A primative is a reference to a value that you were robbed of.
22:46:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'primative': A primative is a reference to a value that you were robbed of.
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23:29:38 <oerjan> those pesky primates, always being primative
23:30:23 <myname> still better than premature
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23:58:47 <\oren\> sure, I can add 囲碁盤 since I know what it means (the board for the game go)
23:59:27 <\oren\> 盤 is one of the most complicated kanji I know
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00:01:54 <boily> \oren\: you should also 鹽, because density.
00:03:41 <\oren\> uh, I dunno what that one means
00:04:32 <boily> the traditional version of "salt".
00:09:01 <boily> perhaps go with 鬱?
00:09:15 <boily> I'm curious how far you can go with you font metrics.
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00:10:55 <myname> easy, add a bunch of noise
00:17:49 <FreeFull> Clearly all Asian languages should switch to hangul
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00:23:25 <doesthiswork> hangul is cool, but I wouldn't be in this channel if I liked sensible standardization
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00:31:48 <boily> FrelloeFull, mynamello.
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00:35:06 <doesthiswork> that is a very variable morpheme you're adding
00:36:18 <boily> porthelloing people requires flexibility and complete disregard to common grammar courtesy.
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00:59:17 <zzo38> Can a situation be made up out of Magic: the Gathering cards where the colorful mana cost of a delve spell is removed?
01:00:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexadecimal Stacking Pseudo-Assembly Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44374&oldid=44220 * SuperJedi224 * (+98) /* A (horribly slow) 16-bit Brainf*** interpreter */
01:03:45 <zzo38> Let me to see if I can figure out by myself, but anyone else who know answer can also answer
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01:06:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's very abstract though and I don't know how to concretely define its behavior
01:06:45 <zzo38> Then what things do you know about it?
01:08:21 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: It's called analogy:simile ("Analogy is to simile")
01:08:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's based on, for lack of a better word AFAIK, analogy clauses
01:08:50 <hppavilion[1]> They gave them to us when I was in 4th-5th grade, I think
01:09:05 <hppavilion[1]> They were usually questions that looked like this:
01:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> They are, but I have a feeling they have a more specific name
01:15:47 <doesthiswork> can you come up with some examples of things you could do with it?
01:16:05 <hppavilion[1]> I can't find what it's called (or even a wiki article on it)
01:16:13 <oerjan> <blurelIse> are you kinda bummed about the double slit being solved? <-- * me is kinda bummed that no one in the log discussion provided a link to wth this is about
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01:18:07 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: I think that, in my current idea, it'd be based on OO and machine learning
01:18:34 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analogy#Identity_of_relation calls them "analogy questions" including the quotes
01:19:20 <oerjan> oh and Aristotelian format
01:19:23 <doesthiswork> I am curious to see some handwavy example programs
01:22:08 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: Basically, do you know Haskell's infinite list notation?
01:22:47 <hppavilion[1]> Imagine if someone put too much effort into making it so that could recognize the Fibonacci sequence or a million other sequences automagically
01:23:02 <hppavilion[1]> And that is basically the core feature of this language if it follows my current idea set
01:23:53 <lambdabot> Plugin `oeis' failed with: <<timeout>>
01:24:04 <lambdabot> Powers of 2: a(n) = 2^n.[1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512,1024,2048,4096,8192,16...
01:24:48 <Jafet> @oeis 1,2,4,8,16,31
01:24:50 <lambdabot> Pentanacci numbers: a(n) = a(n-1)+a(n-2)+a(n-3)+a(n-4)+a(n-5), a(0)=a(1)=a(2...
01:25:15 <Jafet> @oeis 1,2,4,8,16,33
01:25:16 <lambdabot> Generalized Catalan numbers: a(n+1) = a(n) + Sum_{k=2..n-1} a(k)a(n-1-k).[1,...
01:25:53 <lambdabot> Factorial splitting: write n! = x*y*z with x<y<z and x maximal; sequence giv...
01:26:35 <zgrep> "This is called the Melvar sequence, consisting of a maximum of 6 numbers."
01:26:58 <hppavilion[1]> In this language, ^ would be bitwise xor and ** exponentation
01:29:23 <oerjan> @tell blurelIse <blurelIse> im really disliking this whole heavy stuff on a blanket model <-- you'll be happy to know that's not really part of GR then, but a ridiculously oversimplifying analogy that GR experts also hate hth
01:33:01 <doesthiswork> http://math.eretrandre.org/tetrationforum/showthread.php?tid=122
01:34:15 <doesthiswork> the problem is the successor function only takes one argument
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01:38:01 <oerjan> <bakatotest> http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/147989/what-is-the-proper-plural-form-of-apparatus <-- huh the top answer to that question is by peter shor. yes, that one.
01:40:58 <hppavilion[1]> (Someone should define "Zhₙ(a, b) ∀(n, a, b) ∋ ℂ" where "Zhₙ(a, b)" is an extended hyperoperation function
01:43:48 <Jafet> oerjan: being a famous personality does not help to resist the power of the Hot Network Questions link box.
01:47:41 <mauris> is R[X]/(X^2 + 1) equivalent to the complex numbers
01:47:44 <hppavilion[1]> I vote that we make up a fictional Mathemetician and attribute all humorous mathematical "discoveries" we make on this channel to him
01:47:57 <oerjan> he also had an interesting comment on a later answer, did you know "syllabus" comes from an ancient misspelling?
01:48:40 <oerjan> i can only conclude peter shor knows his latin.
01:50:45 <mauris> about the quotient ring thingy. but also about how to spell mathematician imo
01:50:46 <hppavilion[1]> English isn't my strongest subject (hence the fact that I had to rephrase the previous sentence so I could spell it properly)
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01:51:37 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well bourbaki and bovik are taken hth
01:51:56 <mauris> should start with "bow"
01:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> I was going to make his last name "Notta", famous for his "Notta Number Systems", a set of number systems where n/0 is defined
01:53:41 <Melvar> oerjan: That latin plural question reminded me of the thing where in German sometimes to form the plural of foreign words like that, we strip off the ending and then add a German plural ending -en.
01:54:21 <oerjan> Melvar: well norwegian does that with e.g. "museum" -> "museer"
01:54:48 <oerjan> i think it's not that common, though.
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01:55:10 <adu> hppavilion[1]: hi
01:55:17 <adu> hppavilion[1]: again
01:55:54 <Melvar> Museum → Museen, but the one that prompted my reminding was Stadion → Stadien
01:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> adu: I'm trying to get the channel a fictional mathematician to which we will attribute all our humorous mathematical "discoveries" if we want to
01:56:30 <adu> I'm a mathematitian
01:56:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: Hedwig hth
01:56:52 <adu> but in honor of Euler, I would recommend "Sir Oily"
01:57:15 <oerjan> mostly for the final -ig
01:57:44 <adu> Sir Oilly was a mathematician who lived on the moon, who invented the calculus of emotions, which has been very useful in pre-crime investigations
01:58:14 <hppavilion[1]> What should his birthyear be (pleasebeacomplexnumberpleasebeacomplexnumberpleasebeacomplexnumber)
01:59:05 <adu> probably 2025 + sqrt(-2)
01:59:10 <Melvar> “Apparat” doesn’t have the ending in the first place, and thus takes an -e plural. “Status” is so rarely pluralized, it takes a Latin plural, meaning it stays “Status”.
02:00:35 <adu> or even better: (-4000000)^(1/4)
02:01:07 <adu> which means he could have been born in any one of 8 places in the complex time-plane
02:02:30 <adu> or perhaps the calculation should be based on J2000
02:02:57 <adu> J2000 + (-4)^(1/4) microseconds
02:04:30 <hppavilion[1]> What did his poor, farming family farm for a living?
02:04:55 <adu> oooo, it would have to be bitcoins
02:07:01 <adu> also complex
02:07:18 <adu> but it's a boring one because 1 of the roots is -1
02:08:36 <adu> and one day, he accidentally planted an J2EE seed, and got a giant J2EEBeanStock in his backyard
02:10:12 <adu> and rediscovered lambda calculus, not to be famous, or get into the Turing/Church prodecural/function debates, but because we was stuck in his house, and wanted to go outside to get a new 802.11ac router
02:11:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44375 * Hppavilion1 * (+919) Created Page (in user namespace for safety)
02:11:53 <hppavilion[1]> adu: You can go edit the page in my user namespace
02:13:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44376&oldid=44375 * Hppavilion1 * (+5) Added Mdr. prefix to introductory paragraph (should it be bold?)
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02:22:30 <oerjan> <tswett> All of those words are made up entirely of straight lines. <-- except for NEITHER hth
02:23:14 <tswett> I'm going to assume that the inclusion of R was an error.
02:23:34 <oerjan> definitely the kind of puzzle you should check programmatically. like writing a novel without E
02:23:46 <oerjan> (you could also remove the keycap)
02:24:00 <tswett> As everyone knows, writing a novel without E is effectively impossible without a typewriter.
02:24:59 <tswett> I'm going to re-say that.
02:25:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44377&oldid=44376 * 73.133.129.229 * (+1022)
02:25:07 <tswett> Ignore the above three lines and this line.
02:25:13 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I wrote a little bit
02:25:14 <tswett> As everyone knows, writing a novel without E is effectively impossible with a typewriter.
02:27:51 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Are you the one who came up with @? <-- i thought that was elliott
02:28:22 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: It was Sgeo. I have it documented. Not sure if elliott == Sgeo.
02:28:51 <oerjan> btw hedwig is a female name but e's a Mdr. anyway so who knows
02:28:55 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it's not perfect, but I think it's funny enough for a first draft
02:28:56 <Sgeo> elliott !+ Sgeo
02:29:12 <Sgeo> oerjan, maybe we're thinking of different @s?
02:29:35 <Sgeo> Mine is the one where |x| is redefined such that |a + b@| = |a| - |b|
02:30:12 <tswett> It's... I guess it's a number such that |@| = -1.
02:30:17 <oerjan> oh it's for metadoctor
02:30:37 <oerjan> Sgeo: i was thinking of elliott's OS
02:30:55 <HackEgo> 446) <oerjan> sllide: @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
02:31:03 <tswett> Let's see. For a complex number z = a + bi, with a and b real, a^2 + b^2 = |z|^2.
02:31:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44378&oldid=44377 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) Sectionized discoveries
02:35:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44379&oldid=44378 * Oerjan * (+5) tense spacing
02:48:18 <izabera> what do you do when you're op in a channel and people start talking about off topic things but they're not interrupting any other discussion because there was none?
02:50:52 <zzo38> That doesn't seem a problem to me in most cases
02:52:10 <izabera> they're ranging from politics to bsdm to cracking systems
02:54:59 <zzo38> If nobody has any on topic things to write about at the current moment then at least I don't care; but others may have different opinion
02:57:45 <Sgeo> tswett, at least, |a| + |b| >= |a + b| no longer holds
02:59:26 <zzo38> Sgeo: Yes, and I expect that would make it to be not a metric, isn't it? Then why do they call it a metric?
03:00:12 <Sgeo> I don't think I called it a metric. It's possible that it was a metric before but my redefinition (which is really the only 'legitimate' way to do this, I'm guessing) makes it not a metric anymore
03:00:15 <oerjan> izabera: ais523 has some opinions on that, as i recall.
03:00:17 <izabera> what is your definition of |x| ?
03:00:32 <izabera> oerjan: on politics or bsdm?
03:00:43 <oerjan> no, he tries to defuse disturbing discussions
03:00:53 <oerjan> those subjects probably qualify
03:01:03 <Sgeo> izabera, if there is no @, then |x| = abs(x). Else, |a + b@| = |a| - |b|
03:01:28 <Sgeo> At least, unless that definition of |x| has an inconsistency, then we go back to only knowing that |@| = -1
03:01:38 <izabera> oh you posted it a few messages ago
03:02:49 <oerjan> zzo38: i believe there have been people who left this channel because they found some of the political discussions disturbing.
03:03:07 <oerjan> we've got less of those discussions these days, i think
03:04:30 <Sgeo> ? Why isn't it |0| - |1|? Or, why are you saying you can do |0| - |1@| ?
03:04:34 <zzo38> izabera: That doesn't seem Sgeo's definition?
03:05:57 <oerjan> Sgeo: hm your @ looks a bit similar to minkowski metric
03:06:15 <oerjan> that involves squaring
03:12:01 <izabera> that's entirely non obvious
03:15:00 <Sgeo> I don't know how to ^@
03:15:27 <zzo38> Then try to figure out how
03:15:44 <FreeFull> e^x is exp(x) which is 1 + x + x^2 / 2! + x^3 / 3! + ...
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03:17:31 <FreeFull> I think hyperbolic functions are applicable somehow
03:17:54 <Sgeo> |@@| = - |@| = 1
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03:19:18 <Sgeo> FreeFull, that seems useful
03:19:22 <Sgeo> The exp(x) thing
03:20:01 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Yeah, it's how matrix exponentiation is generalised for example
03:20:22 <Sgeo> Hmm I think |e^@| = e^-1 ?
03:20:23 <FreeFull> Or the justification for how exponentiation works in the complex numbers
03:23:48 <tswett> I think I'd say |x| is naturally treated as a multivalued function, having y as a value if and only if it has -y as a value.
03:23:54 <tswett> And having at most two values.
03:24:12 <tswett> If you look at it this way, then |x| = -1 just means the same thing as |x| = 1.
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03:26:39 <tswett> The graph of the absolute value function looks like a cone; the shape becomes more elegant if you extend it to a double cone.
03:26:45 <tswett> I think I can define "becomes more elegant" precisely.
03:27:36 <tswett> Yeah. A double cone is the graph of the equation x^2 + y^2 = z^2.
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03:27:44 <tswett> A cone is no such thing.
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03:28:10 <FreeFull> Sgeo: e^@ = cosh(1) + @*sinh(1)
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03:29:58 <Sgeo> FreeFull, I was looking at your expansion, where each x is, when ||ed a -
03:30:10 <Sgeo> I don't understand hyperbolic trig though
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03:31:06 <tswett> sinh and cosh are pretty simple. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbolic_function
03:31:23 <tswett> They're just (e^x ± e^-x)/2.
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03:32:17 <tswett> So we have a pretty trivial identity e^x = cosh x + sinh x, meaning that e^@ = cosh @ + sinh @.
03:33:16 <tswett> Now, I think the way I'd handle this is to say that every complex number besides 0 has two variants, one whose absolute value is positive and one whose absolute value is negative.
03:33:44 <tswett> Then the question is how to extend arithmetic appropriately.
03:34:12 <tswett> You could define @ as the variant of 1 whose absolute value is negative.
03:35:01 <Sgeo> tswett, is this different from adding a boolean dimension to the complex numbers?
03:35:31 <tswett> Well, under my scheme, 0 only has the one variant.
03:36:50 <tswett> I'm imagining multiplication being such that @^2 = 1.
03:37:18 <FreeFull> tswett: Yes, we've established @*@ = 1 too
03:38:03 <tswett> Have you decided that @ is negative?
03:38:31 <Sgeo> I don't remember establishing @@=1
03:38:35 <Sgeo> Just that |@@| = 1
03:38:52 <Sgeo> Is i considered positive?
03:38:54 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Ok, it hasn't been formally proven
03:39:18 <Sgeo> So I guess negative i is not negative?
03:39:18 <FreeFull> I wonder how this compares to a Clifford algebra with e1² = 1
03:39:20 <Sgeo> This amuses me.
03:39:41 <Sgeo> FreeFull, I wish I knew what that meant
03:40:30 <tswett> Of course, negative negative one isn't negative, either.
03:41:32 <tswett> For convenience, I'm gonna abbreviate the sign of the absolute value of a number as its SAV.
03:42:00 <tswett> The ordinary numbers we're used to are (with the exception of 0) positive-SAV numbers.
03:42:17 <tswett> Each positive-SAV number has a counterpart which is a negative-SAV number, and vice versa.
03:43:24 <tswett> You can switch between these two counterparts by multiplying by @, which is simply the negative-SAV counterpart of 1.
03:43:37 <tswett> Multiplication is still associative and commutative, and @^2 = 1.
03:43:50 <tswett> 0 is neither positive-SAV nor negative-SAV, since its absolute value is 0.
03:43:55 <tswett> This tells you how to do multiplication.
03:44:13 <tswett> As for how to do addition?
03:44:53 <tswett> I feel comfortable saying this much: the sum of two positive-SAV numbers is the expected positive-SAV number and the sum of two negative-SAV numbers is the expected negative-SAV number. The sum of 0 with any number is that number.
03:45:13 <tswett> The case I'm leaving undefined is the sum of a positive-SAV number and a negative-SAV number.
03:46:05 <FreeFull> I justified @^2 = 1 by thinking about |x|^2 = x^2
03:46:11 <FreeFull> Although that's not really a proof
03:46:45 <FreeFull> It's because I was previously thinking about polynomials where x^2 gets replaced with |x|
03:47:03 <tswett> |x|^2 = x^2 doesn't hold for imaginary numbers.
03:47:17 <Sgeo> I think |a + b@| = |a| - |b| is also something that seemed to fit, was thinking about squaring I think
03:47:28 <Sgeo> It should be in the logs somewhere
03:48:05 <Sgeo> 1 + @ is a zero-SAV number that is not equal to 0
03:49:38 <Sgeo> tswett, yes, assuming we accept my above definition, which I don't think has any blatant problems so is there a reason not to?
03:50:01 <Sgeo> 1 + @ = 0; 1 = -@; -1 = @;
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03:50:16 <tswett> This means that |10 + 3i@| is also 7.
03:50:48 <tswett> Which definitely doesn't sit well with me.
03:51:18 <FreeFull> Why are you bringing i into this?
03:51:24 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not sure what the problem is? |i| = 1
03:51:35 <tswett> Well, |10 + 3i| isn't 13.
03:51:44 <Sgeo> Good point, hmm
03:52:09 <FreeFull> I don't think we can chuck i in just like that
03:52:30 <Sgeo> |10 + 3i@| = |10| - |3i| = 10 - 3 = 7
03:53:00 <FreeFull> I think @ is orthogonal to i, so it's ok
03:53:22 <tswett> That's a funny sort of orthogonality.
03:53:25 <FreeFull> Both a and b can be separate complex numbers
03:53:30 * zgrep wonders what @ is...
03:53:49 <FreeFull> zgrep: A fancy new number with a negative magnitude
03:53:53 <tswett> FreeFull: now, what would justify |a + b@| = |a| - |b|?
03:53:57 <zgrep> tswett: I know for a fact, that I do quite profusely.
03:54:22 <tswett> It seems like an extension of the rule that |a + b| = |a| + |b|, but that rule isn't actually true.
03:54:29 <Sgeo> zgrep, a number such that |@| = -1, alternatively, a system in which || is redefined to allow for |@| = -1
03:55:10 <FreeFull> tswett: |a + b@| isn't the same as |a + b| though
03:55:11 <Sgeo> tswett, I think it's clear though that |a + b| <= |a| + |b| without @, but breaks when @ is introduced
03:55:15 <tswett> You know, I had a thought just now.
03:55:39 <FreeFull> tswett: Just as |a + bi| isn't the same as |a + b|
03:56:07 <tswett> I still don't see any justification for |a + b@| = |a| - |b|.
03:56:12 <Sgeo> FreeFull, the thing is with |a + bi| you don't just add or subtract, it involves squaring and square roots
03:56:40 <tswett> In any case, define a transconic number as a pair (z,v) where z is a complex number and v is a real number.
03:56:48 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Here we aren't just adding or subtracting either, it involves the magnitudes of the components
03:56:54 <tswett> The absolute value of (z,v) is v.
03:57:50 <Sgeo> This seems like it might admit more numbers than the @ system
03:57:56 <tswett> The transconic numbers are an extension of the complex numbers; the complex number z corresponds to the transconic number (z,|z|).
03:58:33 <tswett> Multiplication just goes elementwise: (z,v) * (z',v') is (z*z', v*v').
03:58:46 <FreeFull> tswett: Do you get the identity exp(@x) = cosh(x) + @*sinh(x) from this?
03:59:15 <tswett> FreeFull: it's not obvious to me where that identity comes from.
03:59:41 <FreeFull> tswett: taylor expansions of exp, cosh and sinh around 0
04:00:00 <tswett> I don't know if you get that identity or not.
04:00:06 <Sgeo> tswett, that identity does rely on |b@| = -|b| I think
04:00:34 <FreeFull> It just relies on @^2 = 1 I think
04:01:20 <tswett> |10 + 3i| = |10 + 3i@^2| = |10| - |3i@| = |10| + |3i|
04:01:39 <tswett> Anyway, the question regarding these "transconic numbers" is how to do addition.
04:02:20 <Sgeo> A bit distracted by work related phone call right now
04:02:33 <tswett> What we would kind of like to say is that (z,v) + (y,w) is (z+y, v+w).
04:02:54 <tswett> The z+y part is indeed what I want, but adding two numbers doesn't generally add their absolute values.
04:03:24 <Sgeo> Not all transconic numbers can take the form a+b@, I believe
04:03:24 * zgrep imagines what a ((work related phone) call) would be like... a sort-of... formal ringing?
04:03:55 <tswett> A call, whether business or personal, placed on a company-owned phone?
04:04:11 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought too
04:04:24 <zgrep> tswett: That's a (work related)(phone call).
04:04:32 <FreeFull> What happens if we want another number, %, where |%| = i ?
04:05:24 <zgrep> tswett: Oh... maybe not.
04:05:34 <tswett> Lemme see. What's the formula for |a + b| given |a|, |b|, and the required extra info?
04:06:02 <Sgeo> What happens if we try to do it geometrically?
04:06:08 <tswett> This is related to the law of cosines.
04:06:15 <zzo38> zgrep: I thought a (work related)(phone call) would be a call discussing work, so normally business but it might not necessarily be (it could be a personal call where someone ask you how long until you are home from work I suppose, but I am not sure if it count actually)
04:06:17 <shachaf> Does |a + b| count as required extra info?
04:06:26 <Sgeo> Like, @ defines a third dimension, such that going along the dimension negates instead of adds to the distance?
04:06:32 <zgrep> zzo38: Yeah, I realized that after a few seconds.
04:06:56 <zgrep> Quite a few of them.
04:06:57 <FreeFull> If we're talking just about real numbers, you could do a formula with some trouble, I think
04:06:58 <tswett> Sgeo: that's more or less what I'm doing.
04:07:52 <FreeFull> signum(a) and signum(b) would be required extra info, I believe
04:07:58 <Sgeo> I think it's different, your additional dimension is the actual absolute value, where mine only contributes differently
04:08:20 <tswett> Okay, I think the equation I want is |a + b|^2 = |a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| cos(gamma).
04:08:26 <Sgeo> |a+bi+c@| = sqrt(a^2 + b^2 - c^2) ?
04:08:31 <tswett> Where gamma is the relevant angle.
04:09:11 <tswett> cos(gamma) is, I think, the real part of the signum of a/b.
04:09:27 <Sgeo> Hmm I don't know what to do with |i@|
04:09:44 <Sgeo> Wait didn't I break that sqrt approach once before in the logs?
04:09:53 <tswett> No, that can't be right...
04:10:19 <tswett> D'oh. That certainly can be right.
04:10:41 <Sgeo> Oh right sqrt is usually defined as positive
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04:11:34 <FreeFull> We need an actual mathematician
04:11:42 <tswett> Okay. |a + b|^2 = |a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| Real(Sgn(a/b)).
04:12:04 <coppro> actual mathematician here. what's the emergency?
04:12:08 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = sqrt(a^2) - (sqrt(a^2 + b^2) - sqrt(a^2))
04:12:08 <tswett> This implies that |a + b| = sqrt(|a|^2 + |b|^2 - |2ab| Real(Sgn(a/b))).
04:12:18 <tswett> coppro: do you have published research?
04:12:27 <coppro> tswett: not published, but I have an approved thesis
04:12:41 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = 2a - sqrt(a^2 + b^2), does this make sense as reasonable?
04:12:57 <Sgeo> busy right now will run some numbers through that later
04:12:59 <tswett> So the question for my thing is, of course, which square root?
04:16:06 <Sgeo> FreeFull, equiv. and makes it more intuitive, ty
04:16:22 <Sgeo> Wait no still not intuitive
04:17:49 <Sgeo> The idea is that I'm capturing the extent that the dimension contributes to distance, and negating it
04:18:09 <tswett> It might turn out that the answer is "the obvious one".
04:18:36 <tswett> In any case, I have an addition formula now. It's horrible, but it exists.
04:19:21 <tswett> (z,v) + (y,w) = (z+y, sqrt(v^2 + w^2 - 2vw Real(Sign(z/y))))
04:20:43 <tswett> And the icky thing is, I don't know how to determine which square root you use.
04:20:51 <FreeFull> All we need now is someone to prove all of this mess inconsistent
04:21:16 <tswett> My stuff is undoubtedly inconsistent with some axioms obeyed by the complex numbers, but it's consistent per se.
04:22:22 <tswett> That would hypothetically be (1,i).
04:22:40 <tswett> But I'm currently not permitting the v part to be non-real.
04:24:09 <Sgeo> Are our defintions similar or different? They look different, can we put some numbers in?
04:24:41 <Sgeo> Per mine, |1+@| = 2 - sqrt(2) = I have no idea if that's sane
04:25:11 <Sgeo> Per yours, |1+@| = sqrt(0 - 0) = 0
04:26:14 <tswett> Per mine, |1+@| is the absolute value of 1 + @ = (1,1) + (1,-1) = (2, sqrt(1^2 + (-1)^2 - 2(1)(-1) Real(Sign(1/1))))...
04:27:11 <tswett> And that square root is sqrt(1 + 1 + 2), or 2.
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04:27:29 <tswett> So the answer is (2, 2), except I don't have a basis for choosing whether it's 2 or -2.
04:27:44 <tswett> So 1 + @ is undecided between 2 and -2.
04:28:00 <tswett> I'd prohibit that sum.
04:28:06 <FreeFull> Sgeo: So, you're not going with |1+@| = 0 any more?
04:28:09 <tswett> Rather, it's undecided between 2 and 2@.
04:28:46 <tswett> Yeah. In general, z -> (z, |z|)
04:29:11 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to go on a long, rambling discussion about that?
04:29:26 <Sgeo> It equals -1/0, hth
04:29:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: sure. That discussion is called "projective algebraic geometry".
04:30:11 <Sgeo> FreeFull, I don't think so
04:30:35 <tswett> Well, projective algebraic geometry involves adding points that are essentially located at 1/0.
04:30:52 <Sgeo> tswett, are -1/0 and 1/0 equivalent in projective algebraic geometry?
04:31:07 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_projective_line
04:31:22 <tswett> Projective algebraic geometry doesn't really treat 1/0 as a number.
04:31:45 <tswett> But the projective version of the real line (which is the thing FreeFull just linked) does have a number 1/0, which is the same as -1/0.
04:32:06 <tswett> Maybe I should call it a point instead of a number.
04:32:31 <FreeFull> There is also the complex projective line
04:32:45 <FreeFull> Which also has a single point at infinity
04:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> And, I presume, the quaternionical projective line?
04:33:06 <tswett> FreeFull: that's also called the Riemann sphere, isn't it?
04:33:38 <Sgeo> |x+@| = 0 in my system, 2x - sqrt(x^2 + 1) = 0; 2x = sqrt(x^2 + 1), 4x^2 = x^2 + 1; 4x^2 - x^2 - 1 = 0; 3x^2 - 1 = 0; 3x^2 = 1; x^2 = 1/3; x= 1/sqrt(3) ?!?!?
04:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Well i! equals some weird shit, so... that's fine, really
04:34:14 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: there are a lot of ways to do that.
04:34:18 <tswett> Like, say... lambda calculus.
04:34:29 <FreeFull> hppavilion[1]: That doesn't make sense, * is dyadic and √ is monadic
04:35:25 <Sgeo> Can we prove that we can have |a + b@| have different definitions that are each individually consistent with themselves?
04:35:40 <tswett> What makes it cheating?
04:36:00 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: It isn't fun if it's already been done, unfun things are cheating, so you cheated
04:36:34 <Sgeo> Hmm does my approach introduce an asymetry between a and b?
04:36:48 <Sgeo> That would be displeasing
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04:37:56 <blurelIse> hp, does your equation produce an integer?
04:38:53 <tswett> Let & be such that |&| = & and & is not zero or positive.
04:39:10 <hppavilion[1]> bender|: You wouldn't happen to have any ideas as to how that could work, would you?
04:39:25 <FreeFull> Can we do this with some other function? Instead of |x|, why not sinc(x)?
04:40:53 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided that "@" (the character, not the number) is now called the "atpersand" in my book, "Arbitrary Names for Arbitrary Things".
04:41:35 <FreeFull> Sgeo: tswett: We need to think about what signum means for our special numbers
04:41:47 <FreeFull> If we want to keep the relation x = signum(x)|x|
04:42:06 <Sgeo> FreeFull, good point
04:42:21 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], tells you whether a number is negative, positive, or zero.
04:42:34 <tswett> For the complex numbers, sgn(x) = x/|x|.
04:42:39 <Sgeo> Can be defined as |x|/x if x != 0. This obviously may no longer be accurate
04:42:48 <tswett> Also applies to the real numbers.
04:42:57 <tswett> |x|/x doesn't work for the complex numbers.
04:43:15 <tswett> FreeFull: on my blog, sgn(0) is undefined.
04:43:23 <Sgeo> Oh didn't realize there's a difference between |x|/x and x/|x|
04:43:40 <tswett> i/|i| is i, |i|/i is 1/i which is -i.
04:44:14 <Sgeo> @ = sgn(@)|@|; @ = -sgn(@); sgn(@) = -@
04:44:30 <tswett> Yes, because i * -i = -(i * i) = -(-1) = 1.
04:44:34 <tswett> All right. I should go to bed a couple of hours ago.
04:46:07 <Sgeo> I think so. @ * |-@| = -@
04:46:15 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming we preserve the property that sgn(x) = -x which probably isn't a property now that I think about it?
04:46:48 <Sgeo> |-@| = -1, right?
04:48:14 <Sgeo> I think the sgn thing is the most solid thing we have
04:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> Should you put it in a formal document and publish it?
04:49:10 <hppavilion[1]> I would call the document "Making up numbers: A study of studying solutions to undefined algebraic expressions"
04:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> (because @ is the solution to the "formerly" undefined algebraic expression |x|=-1, of course)
04:52:20 <hppavilion[1]> Here's your next assignment: sin(@), cos(@), tan(@) xD
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04:54:12 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = 2a - sqrt(a^2 + b^2); |4 + 3@| = 8 - sqrt(16 + 9 = 25) = 8 - 5 = 3
04:54:37 <Sgeo> Seems a bit odd to me
04:55:34 <Sgeo> I have no idea what Zh means
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04:56:11 <Sgeo> tswett's approach gives meaningful definition to addition, where I just leave them in current form
04:58:00 <hppavilion[1]> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperoperation#Definition
05:00:07 <hppavilion[1]> I probably should've put some parenthesis in that last one
05:01:24 <zzo38> Is it possible to use normal HTTP proxies rather than CONNECT proxies for HTTPS in Firefox?
05:02:01 <coppro> zzo38: the proxy can't issue a valid certificate, nor can it negotiate a connection on your behalf
05:02:13 <hppavilion[1]> I want to define a new function called Zh[n](a, b) which defines the hyperoperation for as many possible numbers as possible
05:02:40 <Sgeo> I don't see how to attempt to prove a contradiction in any of the |a + b@| definitions
05:03:02 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe you've just invented an entirely new type of number
05:03:15 <zzo38> coppro: The proxy shouldn't need to issue a certificate in such a case
05:03:16 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe you're one of the greatest genii of our generations
05:03:16 <Sgeo> There are some definitions that are bad though.
05:03:38 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = -a really, really sucks as a definition
05:03:44 <coppro> zzo38: you need a certificate for HTTPS though. that's the point
05:04:01 <zzo38> I mean it should send "GET https://example.org/ HTTP/1.1" to the proxy server if you request https://example.org/ and otherwise ignore the HTTPS stuff and delegate all such stuff to the proy server to handle instead
05:04:32 <zzo38> (But it should be an option; you should also be allowed to use CONNECT proxies if you wish to handle encryption on the client instead)
05:05:47 <hppavilion[1]> |@|=-1 is actually one of the most beautiful things I've ever seen
05:05:49 <Sgeo> If b can be c@mplex, you'd get |a| + |@@| = |a| - @ and I don't think we've attempted to get @ absolute values
05:06:02 <zzo38> To allow it by another kind of PAC response perhaps
05:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: So is c@mplesx of the form (a+bi+c@+di@) or (a+b@)?
05:06:38 <Sgeo> I'd love to get to that first one eventually
05:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> I hope I live long enough to see this become a thing
05:07:16 <Sgeo> |a + bi + c@| seems easy enough with my approach at least.
05:07:26 <coppro> zzo38: that would not work, because the proxy will not handle https
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05:08:14 <Sgeo> |a + bi + c@| = 2*sqrt(a^2 + b^2) - sqrt(a^2 + b^2 + c^2)
05:08:16 <zzo38> I used a PAC file with the "file:" scheme and it works, even though Wikipedia says to publish to HTTP server; but using a local file is going to be faster and more versatile and more secure too.
05:08:24 <coppro> zzo38: I suppose it is technically possible but it would be bad to accept it
05:08:25 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: Can you make a formal document describing what you've discovered so far about @?
05:08:32 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], not tonight
05:08:38 <zzo38> coppro: Well, many proxies don't, but a few proxies do, so in the cases where it does, it would be accepted.
05:08:38 <zgrep> How about an informal one.
05:08:44 <coppro> because it would not actually be a secure connection and the client software should not lie to its user like that
05:08:52 <zzo38> (Of course the proxy could be localhost if you want to)
05:09:04 <hppavilion[1]> Starting with the bases and explaining the highlights of what you've derived from it
05:09:12 <zzo38> coppro: It doesn't lie; the user must program the proxy explicitly.
05:09:26 <coppro> zzo38: but even so, they would assume an https connection is secure
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05:09:35 <zzo38> If it requires a PAC file loaded with the "file:" scheme then it is more safe
05:09:55 <zzo38> It can be made to refuse to do that if the PAC is loaded from any other scheme
05:09:55 <coppro> doing that would give neither an encrypted connection, since the connection to the proxy would be unencrypted, nor validation of the server certificate
05:10:12 <zzo38> coppro: The proxy would validate the certificate if that is wanted.
05:10:27 <blurelIse> hppavilion[1], http://oeis.org <---huge list
05:10:32 <coppro> a) the client can't trust the proxy's validation
05:10:44 <coppro> b) the proxy has no way to communicate that it rejects the proxy's assessment
05:10:48 <coppro> that it rejects the certificate
05:10:50 <zzo38> coppro: The user would have to implicitly trust it when configuring the proxy
05:10:54 <Sgeo> I think there's a weird shape defined as |x + y@| = 0
05:11:19 <hppavilion[1]> I know what oeis is, but it's a list of what particularly in this case?
05:12:34 <blurelIse> well, if anything it also gives you a general layout for publishing without a paper
05:13:11 <blurelIse> each sequence has an equation that creates it, so theres all sorts of fun stuff in there
05:14:41 <zzo38> You could return a 5xx error or 4xx error or whatever in case of certificate errors.
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05:17:22 <coppro> zzo38: this seems inferior to CONNECT
05:21:06 <Sgeo> I think the old |a+b@| played nicely with throwing random garbage in there, I'm not sure if this one will
05:21:53 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| might behave differently in edge cases, so let's use this
05:22:15 <Sgeo> Actually that i could complicate the issue... hm don't know what do
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05:23:05 <Sgeo> |@ + @| = 2@ - |@ + i| = ???; 2@ - sqrt(@^2 + 1) = ???
05:24:01 <Sgeo> The latter, but trying to see if my definition breaks
05:24:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bid bf @ ? .
05:25:04 <Sgeo> 2@ - sqrt(@^2 + 1) = -2; 2@ = sqrt(@^2 + 1); 4@^2 = @^2 + 1; 3@^2 = 1; @^2 = 1/3 = what?
05:25:14 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], not really
05:25:27 <Sgeo> Stress-testing definitions
05:25:32 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bid bf @ ? .
05:25:34 <zzo38> coppro: In some ways it is, but it also allows you to do some stuff that you might want to do otherwise
05:25:49 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], yeah, so I'm going to stay away from using that definition
05:25:59 <Sgeo> Was using the |a+bi| thing as a shortcut to say 2d distance
05:26:33 <Sgeo> Maybe I just actually want a vararg dist() function
05:26:48 <Sgeo> But if I say dist() always returns positive, we end up right back where we started
05:27:50 <Sgeo> You know what, I might go back to that one that used || with imaginary
05:28:05 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi|
05:28:16 <zzo38> For example if you want to ignore some certificate errors or if you want to modify the headers or make a backup copy, then you can program the proxy to do such thing. This feature can be useful if it is a LAN proxy you can make a shared cache
05:28:46 <Sgeo> Well, to match my intuitions, I want |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| = 2a - |ai+b|
05:29:10 <zzo38> Of course for security purposes it should not be allowed in non-local PAC files
05:29:31 <Sgeo> I think I also want |a+b@| = - |a@+b|
05:30:25 <Sgeo> Well the latter is a good restriction we can push any definition against
05:31:25 <Sgeo> |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi| = - |a@+b| = -2b + |ai+b| ?
05:31:40 <Sgeo> 2a - |a+bi| = -2b + |ai + b| ?
05:31:58 <Sgeo> Assuming a and b are real, that's a question that doesn't involve @ at all, which is nice
05:34:13 <Sgeo> 2a + 2b = |a+bi| + |ai + b|; Uh I have no idea how to proceed from here
05:35:25 <Sgeo> a=1; 2 = 1 + |i| = 2.
05:35:34 <Sgeo> For a second I forgot that a was 1 and thought it was 2
05:39:00 <zzo38> The other way around should also be allowed; if you want to connect to a insecure server (of any protocol) using a CONNECT proxy that should be allowed too
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05:47:11 <zzo38> Maybe if I can set the ALLOWS_PROXY_HTTP flag on the "https:" scheme will that allow it to work how I wanted it to work?
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05:59:30 <Sgeo> Maybe numbers of the form a + bi + c@ + di@ are just 4-dimensional?
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06:05:35 <Sgeo> Let @1 and @2 be two different numbers. |a + b@1| = |a| - |b|; |a + b@2| = 2a - |a + bi|; |a + x@1| = |a + @2|; |a| - |x| = 2a - |a + i|; |x| - |a| = |a + i| - 2a; |x| = |a + i| + |a|; Guess not. Was speculating that maybe the definitions just resulted in subtly different @ values along the same dimension
06:07:52 <Sgeo> I think though that this suggests that both definitions might be reasonable?
06:11:32 <Sgeo> |x + y@| = 0; 2x - |x + yi| = 0; Wolfram Alpha hates this, how about 2x - sqrt(x^2 + y^2) = 0? Wow this is stunningly boring: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2x+-+sqrt%28x%5E2+%2B+y%5E2%29+%3D+0
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06:46:36 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: So out of curiosity, how is defining a variable such that |x|=-1 different from defining a variable such that, for example, x+y!=y+x?
06:48:53 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], redefining |x| will likely break less stuff (this is different from the 'poetic' way of defining a variable x such that |x|=-1 because absolute value is defined to be positive. Making a similar but not same operation as abs and calling it abs isn't so impossible. Doing that for equality or addition would likely result in an operation that behaved significantly differently from equality or addition)
06:49:15 <Sgeo> Incidentally, depending on what you mean by *, a*b isn't always b*a
06:49:34 <Sgeo> If a and b are quaternions, the way multiplication is defined on them the order makes a difference
06:50:38 <hppavilion[1]> So how's it work for sedenions? Do they not even satisfy closure? xD
06:52:21 <hppavilion[1]> You /do/ realize hppavilion[1] is a pythonic array index, correct?
06:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> Isn't closure the property that if you perform multiplication/addition on two numbers of the same type, they come out to the same type of number?
06:53:21 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], was slightly unfamiliar with the term, I'm not a professional mathematician
06:53:40 <Sgeo> I think I would have recognized "closed over operation" more readily
06:54:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not a professional mathematician eihter, just a guy who reads too much wikipedia on mathxD
06:59:56 <zzo38> I also am not a real mathematician but I like to study many mathematical thing in Wikipedia and in the book and my own stuff by myself
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07:21:26 <b_jonas> \oren\: I think you haven't regenerated the image preview of the fontdemo
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07:54:06 <Taneb> zzo38: I am not sure where the line is between not a real mathematician and a real mathematician
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08:16:18 <blurelIse> once you lose that, you're just a numerologist
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08:31:26 <zzo38> I do not belong to any university and have never been published in a mathematical journal, therefore I must be not quite a real mathematician
08:32:02 <blurelIse> i got published on oeis, but im also not a real mathematician
08:33:32 <blurelIse> then again idk if thats really considered being published
08:47:27 <b_jonas> By the way, the title of the latest OOTS strip (1006) is "Uninterrupted Torment", which sounds like it should be a M:tG card name.
08:47:50 <b_jonas> There's "Everlasting Torment" and "Neverending Torment"
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09:21:32 <b_jonas> Why the heck does the new mulligan rule and reminders about it on http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles don't have a reminder text about "scry"? I mean, I know it's in Theros and Magic Origins, but it's not an evergreen mechanic, and won't appear in all sets. They should add a reminder text.
09:23:14 <b_jonas> Oh, good! Apparently the actual text that goes to the Comp Rules will not say "scry", it will spell out the action.
09:23:21 <b_jonas> It's only the announcements that are stupid.
09:24:33 <b_jonas> And the comp rules also makes it clear when exactly you scry, namely after everyone has kept their opening hand, but before other turn zero actions.
09:30:35 <b_jonas> The comp rules update bulletin isn't up yet though.
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10:38:32 <fizzie> Welp, that was a new kind of personal conveyance device for me. It looked like a segway without the stick. Or a skateboard with two big wheels on either ends, except perpendicular.
10:39:06 <Taneb> I think I've seen some like that
10:41:29 <fizzie> "if (*p_state == BORED) { free(boredom); *p_state = be_challenged(); } says an ad on this train.
10:42:06 <myname> so, be_challenged returns an enum
10:44:37 <fizzie> I already switched trains, so I can't be sure if they assigned p_state or *p_state.
10:44:55 <Taneb> fizzie: I think that could lead to things going wrong
10:45:01 <Taneb> Possibly even segfaults!
10:46:27 <fizzie> It was for these guys http://www.cambridgeconsultants.com/
10:46:41 <Taneb> Oh! I know someone who used to work for them
10:47:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44380&oldid=42799 * Martin Büttner * (+911)
10:47:52 <myname> Taneb: doing marketing?
10:48:02 <Taneb> Software, probably
10:48:48 <ais523> those "let's make our advert look like code" things often have code that couldn't possibly work
10:49:02 <ais523> also, what sort of variable name is "p_state"?
10:50:03 <Taneb> ais523: the state of the peas
10:52:09 <boily> "free(boredom)" in a conditional block is dubious at best.
10:52:52 <myname> maybe be-challenged does something with it. but it has to be global then
10:53:04 <ais523> it could be that p_state is tracking the allocation status of boredom?
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10:54:01 <myname> in that case, calling a function and rely on that may not be the best idea
10:54:53 <Taneb> Maybe be_challenged does other things
10:55:15 <Jafet> It's true that programming in C is a very exciting and challenging activity.
10:55:30 <Taneb> Like, I don't know, chooses a random activity and returns that
10:55:37 <myname> if p_state keeps track of the allocation status, it should do the if itself
10:59:13 <Jafet> On that note, someone should make an esolang out of defect report 260
10:59:18 <Jafet> http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg14/www/docs/dr_260.htm
11:01:39 <ais523> I love the way they use (free) just in case free is a macro
11:02:36 <ais523> it probably doesn't, but I like it anyway
11:02:58 <ais523> Jafet: fwiw, some compilers have been caught comparing two pointers as equal, but having assignments through one not affect the value readable through the other
11:03:25 <b_jonas> ais523: is that when they compare only offset values? I think that's sometimes even valid
11:04:33 <Taneb> Would that let them become Turing complete through the back door?
11:04:33 <ais523> the code is something like: x = malloc(sizeof *x); free(x); y = malloc(sizeof *x); if (x == y) { *x = 1; *y = 2; printf("%d", *x); }
11:04:53 <ais523> on some versions of clang
11:05:04 <ais523> (add declarations, main, etc. to produce a complete program)
11:06:33 <Taneb> That's undefined behaviour I think
11:06:34 <b_jonas> ais523: uh... ok, dunno, I'll leave the language lawyers to figure out how they have to write those kinds of rules
11:06:58 <ais523> b_jonas: Jafet's link is about this
11:07:07 <ais523> (language lawyers discussing this situation)
11:07:16 <Jafet> Taneb: since x and y have identical values, why is it any less defined than using y only?
11:07:19 <b_jonas> yes, I know. I think I'd rather not go into this.
11:07:20 <ais523> Taneb: it is indeed undefined behaviour, but some people are surprised by the way that clang happens to interpret it
11:07:33 <Taneb> Jafet: I didn't say it was unsurprising
11:07:37 <b_jonas> The crazy unions and memcpys were enough for me as for C magic.
11:08:18 <ais523> the official standards response about this sort of thing was: "The C Standard lays down no requirement that two inspections of the bits representing a given value will observe the same bit-pattern only that the observed pattern on each occasion will be a valid representation of the value."
11:08:43 <ais523> it was a bit longer, actually
11:08:59 <ais523> the official explanation seems to be that as x is a pointer to freed memory, its actual value is allowed to change spontaneously
11:09:48 <ais523> (i.e. x itself can change spontaneously, in addition to *x)
11:10:36 <b_jonas> ais523: right. this is the strange kind of thing where if you write (in a function scope) int x; int y = x; that might cause undefined behaviour because x is uninitialized and can be of a trap value and even copying that trap value can cause UB
11:10:53 <Jafet> Well, since x gets an unspecified value, *x is undefined
11:10:54 <ais523> b_jonas: and Itanium is one platform where that actually happens
11:11:03 <b_jonas> because it's such a strange value that, like, even reading it into a register can be a problem, or the electrons are not cleaned up, or something?
11:11:20 <b_jonas> ais523: um, what happens excatly?
11:11:26 <Jafet> The B5000 was a CPU where you'd get this regularly, I believe
11:11:37 <Jafet> It had only one native type, double precision floating point
11:11:38 <ais523> b_jonas: so on Itanium, fetching a memory address can give you a deferred exception
11:11:47 <Jafet> And all other types were defined to be subsets of it
11:12:01 <ais523> and then attempting to read the register that you were trying to store the value in sets off the actual exception
11:12:20 <fizzie> ais523: I think it's a pState that's been turned from camelCase to under_scores.
11:12:26 <b_jonas> ais523: um, but it's not permitted in C if you read a char, or an unsigned char, which is why memcpy works on even an uninitialized area (it conceptually copies chars or something similar, though the implementation may of course do whatever)
11:12:27 <ais523> so suppose the previous function did something like «if (x) {printf("%d", *x);}»
11:12:48 <b_jonas> ais523: um, "fetching a memory address" can sure be bda if you're reading through a wrong pointer
11:12:59 <ais523> on Itanium, the usual implementation would be to load x /before/ the test
11:13:08 <b_jonas> ais523: but here the address is valid, x is a local variable. reading it bytewise would be ok in C.
11:13:09 <ais523> specifying a deferred exception
11:13:26 <b_jonas> oh, you mean through pointers.
11:13:29 <ais523> now, suppose you call into a new function, and it chooses the same /register/ for x
11:13:40 <ais523> attempting to do anything with x, other than assigning a new value to it, will cause the null pointer exception to happen
11:13:58 <ais523> err, suppose it chooses the register for x that it previously chose for *x
11:14:22 <ais523> if x happens to be stored in memory (very unlikely for a local variable on Itanium) the problem couldn't happen
11:14:41 <ais523> which is why any argument involving pointers to x will miss the point (because that would force it into memory)
11:15:03 <b_jonas> well, for this simple code, int x; int y = x; with nothing between, the compiler will probably see what you're doing rightaway.
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11:16:56 <ais523> I'd be surprised if a compiler looked at that code and thought "hmm, I need to force x into memory"
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11:19:21 <Jafet> b_jonas: yes, it will see undefined behaviour and optimise out all code that follows after that
11:19:37 <ais523> ah right, the gcc approach to UB
11:19:46 <Jafet> https://people.csail.mit.edu/nickolai/papers/wang-undef-2012-08-21.pdf
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11:23:16 <b_jonas> Jafet: and possibly give a warning, unless it can prove the code unreachable anyway
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12:59:00 <b_jonas> Hehe, hilarious bug: http://meta.stackexchange.com/q/266830/222298
13:00:16 <b_jonas> it's a security bug where typing a particular magic sequence in a chat room on chat.meta.stackexchange.com notifies everyone who has been in the chatroom the last seven days in their SE-wide inbox.
13:00:37 <b_jonas> you're supposed to be able to notify only a particular user you name in a chat message normally
13:00:48 <b_jonas> S1: no idea, the SE employees are debugging it right now
13:00:56 <ais523> b_jonas: why would you link to a 404 page? you can't find useful information via it
13:01:04 <b_jonas> ais523: it wasn't 404 yet when I linked
13:01:10 <b_jonas> got deleted quickly because people would abuse it
13:01:17 <b_jonas> it includes the actual character sequence
13:01:42 <b_jonas> (or you may have a high enough rep on meta to be able to view a "deleted" question)
13:01:50 <ais523> hmm, like the sequence of 12 characters that crashes Chrome? (when you try to visit it as an URL or mousehover over an anchor that links to it like an URL)
13:03:15 <ais523> I'm trying to remember what the sequence is, now
13:03:18 <S1> ais523: Which one was that? (the 12 char sequence)
13:03:23 <ais523> I tried it in Chromium and it acted oddly but didn't crash
13:03:24 <b_jonas> um, I mean the one that pings people on SE chat
13:03:32 <b_jonas> I don't know about the Chromium one
13:03:55 <ais523> IIRC it was something like http:// and a NUL byte, double-URL-encoded
13:04:09 <ais523> but the second layer of URL encoding didn't encode all the characters, just some of them
13:04:22 <ais523> that probably narrows it down to enough possibilities to find it by brute force
13:04:40 <b_jonas> they probably fixed that since
13:04:42 <ais523> http://%%30%30 perhaps, although that's 14
13:05:01 <ais523> b_jonas: well the bug was reportedly with Chrome, and I tried it in Chromium just after it became public and didn't get a crash
13:06:16 <b_jonas> dunno, this reminds me to the very old bug around windows 95 where in MSIE following a link to file://C|/con/con would hang the machine. that was back when any external webpage could just have a clickable link to the file:// protocol
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13:06:51 <b_jonas> but then, windows 95 had tons of similar easy bugs, including ones much easier to exploit, like packets that crashed the networking system
13:07:15 <ais523> b_jonas: in IE 4 I created a recursive frameset once
13:07:22 <b_jonas> "will undelete when I've pushed the fix" says an admin, so my link will be valid
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13:07:38 <ais523> which crashed Explorer (not just IE; Explorer's the process that handles the desktop, Start menu, etc.)
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13:08:03 <ais523> given that ctrl-alt-delete was disabled on the computers I tested it on, doing anything from there (including logging out) became quite awkward
13:11:28 <b_jonas> ais523: that was on what operating system?
13:11:43 <ais523> I assume Windows 95, not sure though
13:12:22 <b_jonas> on windows 95, such a bug would probably leave the whole system unstable because not enough memory protection separating the processes.
13:12:36 <b_jonas> it would possibly just crash the whole system.
13:13:01 <b_jonas> on windows 98, I think you'd just press control-escape to launch the task manager (if explorer isn't running), and restart explorer from there.
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16:32:31 <tswett> Y'know, for the most part, it should be possible to play Magic over IRC.
16:32:44 <tswett> As long as the players trust each other.
16:33:34 <tswett> I can only think of one effect that wouldn't work, and that's looking at your opponent's library.
16:45:22 <zzo38> With proper program to do the stuff you could implement it even without as much trusting each other as normal, and allow looking in opponent's library
16:49:06 <ais523> tswett: looking at face-down exiled cards your opponent controls
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16:53:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Main article]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44381 * Hppavilion1 * (+28) Created Template
16:55:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44382&oldid=44379 * Hppavilion1 * (+249) Main article
16:55:54 <tswett> I just did a solo test run of this deck.
16:55:55 <tswett> I was able to kill a passive opponent in only 14 turns.
16:55:55 <tswett> Woulda been nice if I hadn't missed the first four land drops.
16:57:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44383&oldid=44382 * Hppavilion1 * (-79) Removed an accidentally inserted raw link
17:00:18 <tswett> I haven't been keeping track of game lengths. I think killing your opponent on turn 4 is pretty good.
17:00:44 <tswett> Not defeating your opponent until turn 14 is reasonable if you're playing a highly defensive deck.
17:01:06 <tswett> Assuming that your opponent actually does something, which my imaginary opponent was not.
17:01:10 <tswett> And this is supposed to be a highly aggressive deck.
17:01:19 <tswett> I really shoulda taken a mulligan.
17:01:21 <ais523> tswett: turn 14 goldfish is /not/ good if you're anything other than a control deck
17:02:15 <ais523> the accepted turncount for a goldfish is 4 in Modern and 3 in Legacy, typically around 5 or 6 in Standard but it's just about to get shaken up so who knows
17:02:47 <ais523> where this doesn't necessarily mean winning, but rather doing something that would place you clearly in control of the game against a real opponent (winning is one way to do this but there are others)
17:02:56 <tswett> So maybe I should aim for 4 or 5 for the goldfish.
17:03:42 <tswett> Let's redo that goldfish.
17:04:16 <ais523> remember that the mulligan rule changes in a few days' time
17:04:21 <ais523> you should probably be testing with the new one
17:11:29 <tswett> That time I made it on turn 6. Much better, but this still kinda felt weak.
17:13:53 <tswett> I wonder what happens if I just make a deck entirely out of creatures with mana cost no more than 3.
17:14:23 <ais523> tswett: a typical creature aggro deck has most of its creatures at mana cost 1 or 2
17:14:31 <ais523> or other way to end the game
17:14:31 <zzo38> You should need some mana source too
17:14:35 <ais523> they tend to be red, as a result
17:15:11 <ais523> the white version has nearly all its creatures at converted mana cost 2, takes a little longer to win, and tries to pick creature abilities to slow down the opponent
17:18:47 <tswett> It might be a good idea to put in a mountain or two.
17:21:20 <tswett> Now, Flooded Strand says, "T, Pay 1 life, Sacrifice Flooded Strand: Search your library for a Plains or Island card and put it onto the battlefield. Then shuffle your library."
17:21:30 <ais523> 23 is the accepted number for most monocolor decks, but pure aggro decks can go with less
17:21:40 <ais523> I think 19 is quite common? maybe 20
17:21:58 <tswett> Tranquil Cove says, "Tranquil Cove enters the battlefield tapped. When Tranquil Cove enters the battlefield, you gain 1 life. T: Add W or U to your mana pool."
17:22:36 <tswett> It seems to me like Flooded Strand has several disadvantages; the only advantage is that you can get one mana the same turn that you play it.
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17:22:50 <tswett> Yet Flooded Strand is much much more expensive than Tranquil Cove.
17:23:06 <tswett> Is Flooded Strand in fact significantly better than Tranquil Cove?
17:23:06 <hppavilion[1]> I think I've invented a programming language that requires a supercomputer of Googlic proportions (or at least a high-end beowulf cluster) to make it work well and fast
17:23:09 <shachaf> Flooded Strand is way better.
17:23:16 <ais523> tswett: it is, and for three reasons
17:23:33 <ais523> a) flooded strand gives you mana immediately, which in tempo-driven formats is important
17:24:37 <ais523> b) flooded strand gets a plains or island, not a /basic/ plains or island; thus, if you have appropriate dual lands in your deck, it produces two colours, and you get a free choice of one and a choice from two of the other (i.e. 7 of the 10 pairs)
17:25:03 <ais523> c) flooded strand is part of a number of combos, some of which define legacy (most of them rely on either the fact that it puts a card in your graveyard, or the fact that it shuffles your library)
17:25:18 <ais523> (although some of the combos in standard rely on the fact that it puts two lands into play on the same turn)
17:25:28 <ais523> there aer a few combos with tranquil cove but they have a much lower power level
17:26:12 <ais523> fetchland (i.e. flooded strand and friends) + brainstorm is found in a very high proportion of legacy decks
17:26:15 <ais523> basically all the ones that run blue
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17:26:47 <hppavilion[1]> I think Analogy:Simile is going to run on neural networks
17:27:04 <hppavilion[1]> It will use R-like data handling properties to detect correlations
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17:27:55 <hppavilion[1]> A file will be a renamed .tar.gz archive containing a "<filename>.ats" file which would be the main file and a "meta.zfg" or something that would define the properties of the neural network
17:31:06 <tswett> So if my deck has some Plateaus, some Savannahs, some Scrublands, some Tropical Islands, some Tundras, some Underground Seas, and some Volcanic Islands, then Flooded Strand will easily let me get any type of mana.
17:32:34 <tswett> Of course, each of those would cost me about seventy bucks.
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17:51:18 <tswett> Okay, lemme try out this funky reduced deck.
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17:59:39 <tswett> Turn 6 goldfish, turn 9 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish, turn 6 goldfish.
17:59:55 <ais523> that… is still not very good, if it's using the entire set of all cards ever
18:00:05 <tswett> I mean, it's Standard.
18:00:13 <tswett> But I think that's still not very good.
18:00:38 <tswett> Well, you did say 5 or 6 for a goldfish.
18:00:51 <tswett> Given that this is aggro, presumably I'd want to average 5 or under.
18:01:42 <tswett> Lemme look for things I might want to add...
18:02:28 <zzo38> One kind of card to make up might be: Fateseal 1, and then target opponent draws a card.
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18:03:03 <ais523> zzo38: a) that isn't strong; b) Wizards refuse to print fateseal nowadays on the basis that people don't like playing against it
18:05:52 <zzo38> I know it isn't very strong, but if the mana cost is low enough then it does not have to be, and/or if it is usable more than once possibly (costing "{1U}, {T}" on an artifact or land or whatever)
18:06:20 <ais523> zzo38: I think the mana cost would have to be about -3 before that was usable
18:06:35 <ais523> actually it's probably usable at -2
18:06:40 <ais523> some decks would want that, most wouldn't
18:08:11 <zzo38> It is overpowered at a negative cost; the minimum possible cost should be {0}
18:08:29 <ais523> zzo38: have you seen Simian Spirit Guide?
18:08:33 <ais523> that sort-of has a cost of {-R}
18:08:44 <ais523> and even then has an alternate mode of casting
18:08:47 <tswett> Oh, that's a cute name. Goblin Kaboomist.
18:08:52 <ais523> there are a few decks that use it, most don't want that effect though
18:09:53 <zzo38> ais523: I have seen it, that is a bit different.
18:10:18 <zzo38> You can earn mana or summon a creature, not both.
18:10:19 <shachaf> "As an addition cost to cast ~, add {U} to your mana pool."
18:11:28 <ais523> however basically nobody summons a creature with the card outside Limited
18:11:39 <shachaf> In theory costs can be anything, I suppose.
18:11:42 <ais523> it's basically a card that does nothing for {-R}, and has an alternative mode of paying {2}{R} for a 2/2
18:11:59 <shachaf> whoa, http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=122123
18:12:11 <ais523> shachaf: it'd help if you stated the card's name rather than just the link
18:12:18 <ais523> so I can know what card it is without having to wait for Gatherer to load
18:12:30 <ais523> only works during your upkeep
18:12:39 <tswett> "As an additional cost to play this card, you win the game."
18:12:39 <ais523> that said, I'd still love to see someone break that card
18:12:44 <shachaf> Sometimes Gatherer links have a name rather than a multiverseid.
18:12:45 <ais523> but the timing restriction makes it difficult
18:13:00 <tswett> Countering it doesn't work; you win the game before your opponent gets priority.
18:13:50 <zzo38> I would *definitely* play the card I just mentioned at a cost of -2; I think that is way too small and at {0} it would be good as an instant. (Forcing opponent to draw card if it cannot be used as an instant isn't quite as good)
18:16:27 <shachaf> Looking at cards like http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Adarkar+Unicorn I have to remember that mana burn used to exist.
18:17:06 <shachaf> And, for that matter, I guess it existed for Braid of Fire too.
18:17:28 <tswett> Ah yes. Mana abilities that you can play as an interrupt.
18:18:24 <ais523> shachaf: Braid of Fire was in standard at the same time as storage lands, which conveniently have an ability that becomes "{1}: add {0} to your mana pool" if played with X=0
18:18:31 <zzo38> That was when they had interrupt; all mana abilities were interrupts, on lands they were implicitly interrupts I think but on other cards they are not implicitly interrupts
18:18:51 <ais523> interrupts left before Braid of Fire arrived by a /long/ way, though
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18:19:02 <ais523> (Coldsnap may be part of Ice Age block, but it was released much later and retconned in)
18:19:45 <shachaf> Hmm, there are some interesting cumulative upkeeps out there.
18:19:48 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Herald+of+Leshrac
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18:20:02 <tswett> Ah, an early version of the mana ability rule: "Adding mana to your mana pool is always considered an interrupt."
18:20:26 <ais523> shachaf: that's one of my favourites
18:20:50 <ais523> hmm, the one with "cumulative upkeep: target opponent gains one life" seems like it'd be really good in Commander, which is all about politics
18:23:47 <tswett> And don't forget this:
18:23:49 <tswett> "By mutual consent, players may agree not to play for ante. This is recommended until you get a feel for the game."
18:25:35 <zzo38> Is there a copy of the old rules on the computer? I would find it very useful for use with old Magic: the Puzzling
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18:26:23 <tswett> http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/jc20 - the original rules
18:26:54 <shachaf> http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Reality+Twist
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18:33:08 <zzo38> Is there a copy of the Fourth Edition rules though?
18:33:42 <tswett> Is there such a thing as mana that can be used for any color?
18:34:46 <hppavilion[1]> One that uses plenty of instrucitons, but makes very short programs
18:35:47 <ais523> tswett: no, cards tend to generate mana of any color instead
18:35:54 <ais523> (i.e. it can only be used for one color but you can choose which)
18:36:31 <tswett> I guess a card could say, "Add 1 to your mana pool. You may spend this mana as if it were mana of any color."
18:36:51 <shachaf> There is e.g. http://magiccards.info/query?q=!Celestial+Dawn
18:37:17 <shachaf> Please don't paste that much text in the channel. :-(
18:37:30 <ais523> and yes, I was going to mention Celestial Dawn too, except that I couldn't remember what it was called
18:38:36 <shachaf> There are a few other cards with similar effects.
18:42:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: you could have put it all on one line
18:43:08 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I could've, but that would've been hard to read
18:43:39 <ais523> no, it would have been easier to read
18:43:56 <ais523> true = 1 == 1; false = 1 != 1; if (true != false) { x = 5; } else { x = 4 }
18:44:13 <ais523> because it doesn't have a bunch of repeats of your nick in the middle
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18:49:54 <tswett> Goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 6.
18:50:01 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: probably related to a different channel
18:50:09 <ais523> nicks are global, but nick jokes are often local
18:50:14 <tswett> At least it seems decently consistent.
18:50:29 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I mean the fact that it's easier to read on one line
18:50:37 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: this is usually the case in IRC
18:50:43 <ais523> the bots tend to output as one line for that reason
18:51:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import sys, itertools \ inp = len(sys.argv) >= 2 and sys.argv[1] or raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
18:51:04 <tswett> By the way, I disavow that code.
18:51:15 <tswett> I wrote it using echo and sed.
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18:57:39 <tswett> Yet another revision...
19:03:19 <shachaf> "Cumulative upkeep -- Place an age counter on ~"
19:11:13 <tswett> Goldfish turn 6, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 5, goldfish turn 6.
19:11:36 <tswett> This is actually starting to feel kinda decent.
19:12:13 <ais523> would anything interact with the age counters?
19:12:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44384&oldid=44380 * SuperJedi224 * (+119) /* Syntax highlighting. */
19:12:36 <shachaf> Some enchantments add cumulative upkeep to an existing card.
19:12:44 <shachaf> But mostly with negative effects, I think.
19:16:21 <zzo38> I made up one card that adds "cumulative upkeep {0}" to the enchanted permanent
19:18:59 <tswett> I would expect the rules to say that multiple instances of cumulative upkeep don't result in multiple age counters being added each upkeep step.
19:19:42 <zzo38> You do add multiple age counters
19:20:06 <zzo38> Example 702.23b explicitly says so.
19:21:34 <tswett> So now I guess the question is if I can add anything to this deck to make it even faster.
19:23:04 <mauris> hmmm, Rust looks sort of neat but i don't know where to start / what to write in it that's especially Rust-y :(
19:23:24 <tswett> I wrote an operating system in Rust.
19:23:30 <tswett> It's not very good. It has two features.
19:24:54 <tswett> If I do want to win the game in about five or six turns, I guess things with a CMC of 5 or 6 aren't going to be especially useful.
19:25:20 <b_jonas> oh, you're talking about crazy M:tG stuff
19:26:30 <ais523> there are "midrange" decks nowadays which aim to block smaller creatures and go over the top of the aggro decks
19:26:44 <ais523> and they're rapidly becoming the most popular sort of deck, mostly because Wizards keeps nerfing everything else
19:26:54 <b_jonas> ais523: the latest OotS strip has the title "Uninterrupted Torment". that sounded like it has to be an M:tG card name, so I checked. it's not, but "Everlasting Torment" and "Neverending Torment" are.
19:27:05 <tswett> Doink. I wonder why this Gatherer search isn't giving me anything:
19:27:07 <tswett> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&color=+[R]|[C]&type=+![%22Creature%22]
19:27:31 <HackEgo> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+003D EQUALS SIGN] [U+002B PLUS SIGN]
19:27:59 <tswett> I wonder why my client decided that the second equals sign in that URL is the first character after the URL.
19:28:14 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering making my λ-calculus tool not allow you to type syntactically invalid λ-expressions
19:28:32 <mauris> tswett: oh, that sounds like something it'd be good at
19:28:40 <mauris> maybe i should emulate a gameboy or something
19:28:50 <hppavilion[1]> But that might break workflow and force workarounds when you wnat to insert something
19:29:05 <mauris> (that actually sounds like a ton of work, how do people stand to write emulators)
19:29:09 <b_jonas> “<tswett> I was able to kill a passive opponent in only 14 turns.” … that's bad.
19:29:16 <zzo38> Possibly Famicom might be easier
19:29:28 <zzo38> Or make an implementation of QUACKVM, which is far simpler
19:29:33 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: don't do that IMO
19:29:52 <ais523> tswett: the advanced search actually seems to be broken
19:29:58 <ais523> it's generating malformed search URLs
19:30:10 <ais523> that said, try changing your "R" and "C" to "Red" and "Colorless", in quotes
19:30:19 <ais523> it might help, as that seems to be what it was trying to generate
19:30:21 <tswett> This works: http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&format=+[%22Standard%22]&color=|[R]|[C]&type=+![%22Creature%22]
19:30:33 <b_jonas> “<tswett> I wonder what happens if I just make a deck entirely out of creatures with mana cost no more than 3.” – I hear such decks can be good these days. wait, what format are you building for?
19:30:38 <zzo38> There are many problems with the searching function in Gatherer; only very simple things work
19:30:43 <tswett> The expression has to contain |[R]|[C] instead of &[R]|[C].
19:30:45 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: (pretty much for the reason you mentioned)
19:31:08 <zzo38> Make a SQLite database of it and then use that to search instead
19:31:24 <ais523> b_jonas: is this standard as of now, or standard as of a couple of weeks from now?
19:31:28 <ais523> most people are focusing on the latter
19:31:44 <tswett> The intersection of the two.
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19:39:19 <b_jonas> Ok, about M:tG, I was wondering on a particular effect red has, namely when it puts a creature of your choice from your hand onto the battlefield with haste, but temporarily, so you {sacrifice, exile, bounce, destroy etc} it {at the end of turn, at end of combat, your next upkeep, some other specified time}.
19:39:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sclipting]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44385&oldid=41647 * Timwi * (+0) oops
19:39:46 <b_jonas> I thought this was sort of an expensive but staple effect that was done often on red cards. It turns out no. Only about three cards do it: Through the Breach, Sneak Attack, and about one more.
19:40:10 <b_jonas> Then M:tG people explained to me that this is no longer done because it's no longer fun when Emrakul is in the same format.
19:40:37 <b_jonas> So I was wondering, could this be done but limited to creature cards with converted mana cost 3 or less?
19:40:43 <b_jonas> And if so, how much would it have to cost?
19:40:54 <ais523> my guess is yes, and 2 or 3
19:41:03 <b_jonas> For comparison, there's still Elvish Piper and a similar card with a piper effect in M12
19:41:13 <b_jonas> those don't give haste but aren't for one turn only
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19:42:41 <hppavilion[1]> Finished the test. 100%. He graded it with an app on his phone. My mind is blown.
19:43:12 <b_jonas> The M12 card is Quicksilver Amulet
19:43:36 <b_jonas> It's like a colorless Elvish Piper
19:44:38 <b_jonas> ais523: as an instant? or a repeatable activated ability on a permanent?
19:44:56 <ais523> b_jonas: was thinking the activation on an enchantment
19:45:05 <ais523> the activation and the enchantment itself would likely have similar costs
19:45:20 <b_jonas> Wait, _enchantment_? That's hard because you don't want to put a {T} cost on it
19:45:37 <ais523> I didn't want to put a {T} cost on it
19:45:38 <b_jonas> though it might not be a big problem if it consumes a card
19:46:05 <ais523> note that a card that gives all your creatures haste is pretty cheap (probably about {1}{R} nowadays), and giving them haste but exiling them at end of turn is normally worse
19:46:35 <Taneb> Are there any known undecidable states for MtG? Like StackFlow intends to create
19:47:22 <tswett> Taneb: I believe so. IIRC, someone implemented a Turing machine in Magic.
19:47:40 <Taneb> tswett: iirc that relied on the players making decisions
19:47:47 <Taneb> A player could always choose to end the cycle
19:48:02 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, ais523 has a construction of a Turing machine, with a small but probably fixable bug
19:48:13 <b_jonas> tswett: and it's documented on the esowiki
19:48:25 <ais523> b_jonas: that is StackFlow
19:48:51 <Taneb> I mean, is there one without the bug
19:48:51 <ais523> Taneb: the StackFlow construction isn't meant to provide any opportunity to make decisions (you get priority but with an empty hand and no activatable abilities; I even blew up all the lands)
19:48:52 <b_jonas> Oh whatever. You don't want efficiency, there's probably a translation.
19:49:07 <ais523> but there's a bug in it where two abilities stack at the same time and you can choose which order to stack them in and it makes a difference
19:49:14 <b_jonas> Taneb: if you want one without a bug, go and fix it somehow.
19:49:19 <b_jonas> It's probably a fixable bug.
19:49:24 <Taneb> b_jonas: I don't know magic well enough
19:49:37 <tswett> "Hot Soup" is weird, flavor-wise.
19:53:14 <ais523> it was apparently designed entirely based on the flavour
19:53:26 <ais523> which makes me think it's a reference to something I'm unaware of
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19:55:26 <tswett> One doesn't normally think of hot soup as a type of artifact, weapon, or equipment.
19:55:41 <b_jonas> the creature is holding something dangerous (a vat of hot oil, a double-edged sword, a weird bomb that can explode any time, it's called "hot soup" here), whcih is not only dangerous but also scary, so you don't want to block it. but he's holding something that will explode in his own face easily.
19:55:47 <tswett> Wait, I get it—yeah, that.
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19:56:00 <b_jonas> tswett: what? why not, hot oil is a weapon
19:56:12 <tswett> Yeah, but it doesn't say "hot oil".
19:56:13 <b_jonas> they use it to defend castles all the time in stories
19:56:23 <b_jonas> hot soup is the goblin version
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19:57:32 <tswett> Yeah, I think I'm getting it.
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19:58:45 <tswett> I can't shake the intuition that adding cards to a deck will make it stronger.
20:01:56 <tswett> Since this deck has 210 cards, it must be unbeatable.
20:02:37 <b_jonas> tswett: 210 cards? that's scary. what deck is it and what format?
20:02:54 <b_jonas> tswett: is it Battle of Wits combo?
20:03:06 <tswett> I'm going to get rid of all but 60 later.
20:03:11 <b_jonas> because that's about the only excuse to play such a large deck
20:03:29 <b_jonas> even in formats with 100 card minimum deck size
20:03:50 <b_jonas> oh, except in crazy formats where people draw from a shared cube deck, not separate libraries
20:04:24 <b_jonas> (they draw either from the shared deck or a basic land of their choice, to be more precise)
20:05:55 <tswett> Don't forget Prismatic.
20:06:03 <hppavilion[1]> Got my λ-calculus GUI working. It now will insert λ on backslash, optionally prevent you from making syntax errors, and on <Control-r> it executes the script and opens a second (non-editable) text area that has the evaluated output in it (though evaluation currently just returns the raw lexed script)
20:06:13 <b_jonas> tswett: what's Prismatic again?
20:06:42 <ais523> b_jonas: six cards of each colour, one with each CMC from 1 to 6, plus a few other things which I forget
20:06:49 <ais523> probably colorless cards and land
20:06:55 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right. I haven't heared of that for a long while.
20:07:04 <ais523> I don't think anyone really plays it any more
20:07:09 <ais523> the people who liked it mostly play Commander now
20:07:11 <myname> hppavilion[1]: when evaluation is ready, go try the Y
20:07:13 <tswett> Deck must be at least 250 cards, and must contain 20 cards of each color; multicolored cards count as one color of your choice.
20:07:21 <tswett> http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/tcg/article.aspx?x=magic/rules/prismatic
20:07:28 <ais523> maybe I'm thinking of something else
20:07:32 <ais523> Prismatic Stairwell or something
20:07:51 <b_jonas> What I'd like to try is simply 60 or 100 card singleton (at most one of each non-basic card) multiplayer, without any commander or such crazy rules.
20:08:28 <tswett> I came up with a rather silly format idea.
20:08:29 <b_jonas> tswett: isn't that much easier these days with so many hybrid cards in print?
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20:08:51 <tswett> Probably. But if you were to use cards with all five colors, you'd still need 100 of them, not 20.
20:09:19 <ais523> b_jonas: 100 card singleton is a real format, which I think Wizards sanction in some cases
20:09:23 <ais523> (perhaps Magic Online?)
20:09:23 <tswett> Just like the vanilla format of your choice, except your deck must be exactly 10 cards and you're limited to one of each non-basic card.
20:09:30 <b_jonas> tswett: sure, but I could play with three colors of mana base, and use red-white and red-green hybrid cards to cover the 20 red cards, withut ever paying for them with red mana
20:09:36 <hppavilion[1]> The λ-calculus program supports λ-expressions and named λ-expressions (I = λx.x)
20:09:46 <b_jonas> ais523: in multiplayer, or duel?
20:09:53 <ais523> tswett: there may well be a Vintage version of that which always wins on turn 1, barring an opposing Force of Will or the like
20:09:58 <ais523> b_jonas: duel I think, not sure though
20:10:19 <tswett> Additional rule: drawing a card is always optional.
20:11:35 <b_jonas> tswett: wait, there was some such crazy format someone mentioned: your deck is five cards singleton, drawing is not optional, at game start you arrange your deck as you choose (don't shuffle) and draw a starting hand of zero.
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20:12:01 <tswett> That sounds pretty interesting.
20:12:10 <b_jonas> It's not so easy to even make a deck that can win.
20:12:18 <b_jonas> So it's like a crazy puzzle format.
20:14:10 <b_jonas> It's somewhat easier now that we have Elixir of Immortality which you can use with two lands, as opposed to the very expensive Beacons from Fifth Dawn.
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20:17:33 <b_jonas> So I think you can do Mountain, Mountain, Lava Spike, Elixir of Immortality, Lava Spike
20:17:44 <b_jonas> But that's probably not the best thing you can do
20:19:32 <b_jonas> Incidentally, Elixir of Immortality gives you 5 life, which combos with Channel+Fireball
20:21:02 <b_jonas> ais523: have you heard of this five cards arranged yet? it's an interesting puzzle to think of
20:21:07 <b_jonas> I don't know a really good solution
20:21:54 <ais523> b_jonas: I've seen similar rulesets before but maybe not that one
20:22:11 <ais523> (the one I knew was three cards, they all start in your hand, drawing from an empty library doesn't cause you to lose)
20:22:23 <ais523> most of the solutions seem to involve Black Lotus somehow
20:22:54 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, so you can take any number of turns? hmm
20:23:03 <ais523> Laboratory Maniac is another card that seems good in both formats
20:23:34 <ais523> (although if you change your Lava Spikes to Lightning Bolts, you beat at least the most basic versions of the Laboratory Maniac deck)
20:23:57 <b_jonas> ais523: but in that case, can't you just play a plains and an Elite Vanguard and attack in the next 10 turns?
20:24:35 <ais523> b_jonas: yes but that loses to most decks because they have faster ways to win
20:25:58 <ais523> or can just burn your creature
20:26:18 <ais523> btw, does your format allow sideboards?
20:26:25 <ais523> you could probably do some interesting things with Research//Development
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20:32:11 <b_jonas> also, I think your normal maximum hand size is still 7, even if your starting hand has 0 cards
20:34:43 <b_jonas> ais523: in that three card format, how about Mental Misstep, Plains, Elite Vanguard, and hope that the opponent plays a combo that the Mental Misstep disrupts completely
20:34:55 <ais523> b_jonas: that was a common sort of build, yes
20:35:21 <ais523> although the cleverer versions involved force of will and some method of winning with one card (e.g. memnite), where if you /didn't/ need the force of will the blue card was useful on its own
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20:35:43 <b_jonas> You could even play a Memnite or Dryad Arbor and two Force of Will
20:35:44 <ais523> come to think of it, something like island, fugitive wizard, daze works on similar principles
20:35:51 <ais523> but requires you to go first
20:35:58 <ais523> b_jonas: yeah but two force of will is pointless
20:36:08 <b_jonas> yeah true, one is probably enough
20:36:08 <ais523> dryad arbor is clever though
20:36:19 <b_jonas> I actually own a Dryad Arbor
20:36:59 <b_jonas> ah yes, Island and Daze is a good idea
20:37:07 <b_jonas> I knew some such counter exists
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20:40:16 <tswett> Man. What if my opponents in the tournament turn out not to be goldfish?
20:40:39 <Taneb> Then use islandwalkers
20:42:27 <Taneb> I don't own a sugar thermometer
20:42:35 <shachaf> "jamming" means "playing magic: the gathering" among other things
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20:42:47 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, if I can have duplicate cards, what about this for your format?: Black Lotus, Orim's Chant, Soul Warden, Black Lotus, Assemble the Legion
20:43:08 <Taneb> shachaf: on occasion, not much or very well
20:43:15 <Taneb> I'm trying very hard to not spend money on it
20:43:33 <shachaf> Taneb: if you come to california you can have a bunch of free jams hth
20:43:43 <Taneb> I can do the same in York
20:43:44 <ais523> the Orim's Chant beats pretty much any attempt you could make at an early combo; and Soul Warden + Assemble the Legion gives quadratically growing amount of blockers and life, thus quickly outpacing any linearly growing damage or creature strategy tou might have
20:44:19 <b_jonas> ais523: turn 5 win that works even if opponent has a blocker: Lotus Bloom, Phyrexian Dreadnought, Stifle
20:44:58 <Taneb> I do want to make that almost-guaranteed lose deck
20:44:58 <ais523> b_jonas: black lotus > lotus bloom, surely?
20:45:01 <b_jonas> is there something better than Lotus Bloom for this, that gives only two mana?
20:45:05 <ais523> or are we just banning black lotus for being absurd?
20:45:14 <b_jonas> ais523: Black Lotus is VERY expensive
20:45:22 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, but it's a hypothetical format
20:45:29 <ais523> I was assuming we wouldn't need the physical cards
20:45:30 <b_jonas> I mean, the Phyrexian Dreadnought can costs 20 dollars, it's not a cheap card
20:45:40 <ais523> just discussion over IRC
20:45:43 <b_jonas> but a Black Lotus, even the cheapest version, is very expensive
20:45:47 <ais523> I see it like BF Joust: both players submit their deck list
20:45:50 <ais523> and then we work out who wins
20:45:54 <b_jonas> well sure, for theory you could mention Black Lotus,
20:46:01 <b_jonas> but I'd prefer something that doesn't include such inaccessible cards
20:46:16 <ais523> in that case you need a banlist
20:46:38 <ais523> you could go with the Legacy banlist, or maybe (if it's about accessibility) ban the Reserved List (except nobody can remember what's on it)
20:46:52 <shachaf> It would be great if a format than bans all cards over a price threshold became popular.
20:47:03 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, Legacy ban list might work
20:47:07 <ais523> shachaf: that'd be crazy, as soon as a deck started doing well it would ban itself
20:47:22 <b_jonas> I agree, strict price ban is a bad idea
20:47:24 <Taneb> shachaf: what format do you guys play in CA?
20:47:35 <b_jonas> but still, I'd prefer not to use the power 9 for a thing like this
20:47:36 <ais523> let's do Legacy ban list then, because at least it's easy to look up and I can remember most of it
20:47:49 <Taneb> I normally play commander
20:47:56 <b_jonas> definitely don't use the Reserved list though, that list is just stupid
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20:48:21 <ais523> b_jonas: it is mostly a list of the most expensive cards, though (by design!)
20:48:21 <shachaf> Taneb: We played Jamstandard, which allowed all cards from Innistrad onward.
20:48:25 <b_jonas> Is there something instead of Lotus Bloom or Black Lotus that works here?
20:48:54 <ais523> b_jonas: how much time do you have? the time spiral cycle of storage lands can produce unlimited mana given sufficient time (might need another land to help out)
20:49:16 <b_jonas> ais523: I'd specifically like Phyrexian Dreadnought + Stifle to win in turn 4 instead of turn 5
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20:49:52 <ais523> b_jonas: this means that you have to play both spells turn 3, right?
20:50:16 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, you mean the three card format
20:50:23 <ais523> and without resorting to black lotus
20:50:38 <ais523> the three card format was basically designed around black lotus originally, but after a while they had a rolling ban list
20:50:45 <ais523> where the most popular card each week was banned for the next week
20:50:47 <b_jonas> hmm wait, Lotus Bloom lets you play in turn 4, not turn 3
20:51:03 <ais523> I can't remember what the decks were like then
20:51:17 <b_jonas> ais523: would that ban Black Lotus every other week?
20:51:26 <ais523> bans were permanent once enacted, sorry
20:51:38 <b_jonas> wouldn't you have lots of ties though?
20:51:44 <b_jonas> with only three cards per deck
20:52:03 <ais523> not normally, because most people added ways to screw up enemy strategies
20:52:20 <ais523> anyway I'm having problems playing stiflenought quickly off one card
20:52:36 <b_jonas> do any of the Leylines help in the three-card format?
20:53:02 <ais523> most of them are either hosers, or require mana
20:53:26 <b_jonas> isn't there some old card that lets you get two mana somehow?
20:53:35 <b_jonas> though probably you could get only two colorless
20:54:09 <ais523> b_jonas: there are at least two Legacy-legal lands that produce {2} (with drawbacks you don't care about)
20:54:25 <ais523> there's also a few cards that scale based on what you have in play
20:54:35 <ais523> which are kind-of useless in a 3-card format but would work for this elsewhere
20:55:12 <b_jonas> five card arrange no starting draw: “Black Lotus, Orim's Chant, Soul Warden, Black Lotus, Assemble the Legion” -- Orim's Chant is intersting, probably a very good choice, but Assemble the Legion costs five mana, so how do you play for all of this with two lotuses?
20:55:27 <ais523> there's a hilarious (tier 2 or maybe 3) Legacy deck whose perfect hand is five leylines, opalescence, serra's sanctum
20:55:41 <ais523> b_jonas: there are two possibilities
20:55:53 <ais523> if the opponent's strategy is screwed up by the orim's chant, you use that to make the opponent useless
20:55:56 <ais523> then kill them with the soul warden
20:56:02 <ais523> if it isn't, you don't cast the orim's chant at all
20:57:34 <ais523> the big problem with my assemble the legion deck is that it can't beat a laboratory maniac
20:57:50 <ais523> neither by preventing it resolving nor by killing it nor by winning first
20:58:09 <ais523> I guess maybe I should be playing some general-purpose 3-mana removal spell over orim's chant
21:02:50 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't understand why you play Soul Warden
21:03:21 <ais523> b_jonas: so that if someone is recurring lava spikes or the like
21:03:29 <b_jonas> ais523: can basic lands be banned if one becomes the most popular during the week?
21:03:32 <ais523> otherwise they might be able to burn me out before I get to 20
21:03:39 <ais523> but there are tons of substitutes
21:03:47 <ais523> e.g. Pendelhaven over Forest
21:03:50 <ais523> will work in most decks
21:04:18 <b_jonas> still, with one popular card banned, this format could get very strange after some weeks
21:04:34 <tswett> Taneb: what constitutes an "almost-guaranteed lose deck"?
21:05:07 <Taneb> I remember reading about it, some Magic blog posted an April fools joke that described a deck guaranteed to end the game on the first turn or something
21:06:23 <b_jonas> ais523: in the five card format, if you can play two Black Lotuses (that would be sick, it's restricted in Vintage afterall), then two Black Lotus, two Brain Freeze, and some defensive card
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21:07:15 <ais523> b_jonas: actually, in the five card format
21:07:19 <ais523> mill seems very, very strong
21:07:45 <ais523> a turn 3 ancestral recall on the draw outright wins, and that only costs one mana
21:07:49 <ais523> (you aim it at your opponent)
21:08:36 <Taneb> What is the 5 card format?
21:08:46 <b_jonas> ais523: doesn't win outright. wins against some decks, but not all
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21:09:06 <b_jonas> ais523: your opponent has drawn only one card yet, draws 3 for Ancestral Recall, one on his next turn
21:09:18 <ais523> hmm, now I'm reminded that there was a time where the top deck in the format (which dominated) had mill as its win condition, and could only mill finitely many cards
21:09:19 <b_jonas> yes, it sounds strong, but not an outright win
21:09:24 <ais523> so people were beating it with a deck of 600 island
21:09:43 <b_jonas> ais523: 600 island? that'd be hard to shuffle
21:09:49 <ais523> Taneb: maximum+minimum deck size 5, starting hand size 0, you can reorder your library at the start of the game
21:09:58 <ais523> b_jonas: there's some debate about whether you have to shuffle if all the cards are the same
21:10:04 <ais523> because all orderings are equally random
21:10:49 <b_jonas> I have played an infinite life deck where one of my win strategies is to just wait for about 60 turns for the opponents to mill, and reshuffle my own deck. I also have creatures, but those can be foiled by many decks.
21:11:15 <b_jonas> It's a VERY bad deck the play against, so I only played it once so far.
21:11:21 <b_jonas> I should rebuild it some time and play it again.
21:11:49 <b_jonas> Though I'd rather want to build a green-blue infinite mana deck now. I did build one but there's many new cards that make it much better now.
21:11:59 <b_jonas> It was ages ago when I built it.
21:13:11 <ais523> what do you do if the opponent has an emrakul?
21:13:25 <ais523> we should arrange a magic-over-IRC thing anyway
21:13:35 <b_jonas> ais523: found it: Seafloor Debris. Add that to Phyrexian Dreadnought and Stifle.
21:13:41 <b_jonas> I knwe there had to be such a land.
21:14:02 <ais523> no money needs spending, no copyright issues as we're just doing a play-by-play with no actual copy involved, no actual cards needed
21:14:20 <b_jonas> ais523: um, you can play with proxies in person too
21:14:24 <ais523> b_jonas: that can't create two on the same turn
21:14:24 <b_jonas> but I like the physical cards
21:14:35 <ais523> and I know you can do proxies in person but that'd be no good for playing against #esoteric people
21:14:53 <b_jonas> And even if you allow some proxies, physical non-proxy cards are nice.
21:15:01 <b_jonas> I actually like the art and flavor text and such things of cards.
21:15:12 <shachaf> In my view the picture wastes half the card space.
21:15:13 <b_jonas> (Not of all cards, sure. There are really bad ones.)
21:15:14 <ais523> oh yes, that's the reason I used to buy them (that the physical cards are nice)
21:15:22 <ais523> but not any more, Lorwyn pretty much put me off Magic for good
21:15:30 <ais523> shachaf: it's used by most top players to recognise the card across the table
21:15:35 <ais523> way easier than trying to read the name
21:15:45 <b_jonas> ais523: why, isn't half of #esoteric in finland and the other half in the UK? :-)
21:15:47 <shachaf> OK, that's true, the picture is useful as an identifier.
21:16:04 <ais523> b_jonas: but the UK is quite big
21:16:36 <b_jonas> exactly. black card with old frame and ugly pink background picture with creatures with a misshapen head, you don't have to read the text to know it's a stupid bad card.
21:17:20 <b_jonas> (it's Phyrexian Broodlings)
21:18:16 <b_jonas> If we played M:tG over IRC, I'd probably use physical cards to represent much of the state locally
21:18:19 <ais523> b_jonas: what's your opinion on Stasis? especially the art
21:18:51 <b_jonas> we could try to organize such a thing, but I haven't got a good deck built currently
21:19:16 <b_jonas> ais523: dunno, that one has very strange art. you only find that kind of thing only on old cards.
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21:20:09 <shachaf> What was that terrible card that converted mana for {3}?
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21:20:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: once? repeatably?
21:20:55 <shachaf> It was an artifact that could convert mana, or something like that.
21:21:14 <b_jonas> shachaf: artifact? not land or creature?
21:22:05 <shachaf> I might be wrong about the cost.
21:22:14 <b_jonas> I know some creatures that convert mana (without needing to tap), but not ones that need that much mana for it.
21:22:34 <b_jonas> that snake shaman guy is the most famous, because it converts any amount of mana for free
21:23:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, that even requires tapping. that seems very useless.
21:24:37 <shachaf> This card is not very good.
21:24:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: I mean, for 3 you get a Darksteel Ignot or lots of similar things
21:25:01 <Taneb> Remember those neural net generated magic cards
21:25:13 <Taneb> My favourite was "You may spend (1)"
21:26:08 <b_jonas> there's Skyshroud Elf which converts _colorless_ mana to white or red for free
21:26:35 <b_jonas> what is there that converts any amount of mana to any color for free, or to a color chosen when it enters the battlefield?
21:28:13 <ais523> celestial dawn kind-of counts
21:28:32 <ais523> there's a card in return to ravnica that makes all lands produce any color of mana
21:28:37 <b_jonas> And is there something that converts any amount of mana to _green_ mana for free?
21:30:02 <b_jonas> ais523: in the sense of Chromatic Lantern, or replacing the mana they produce, or adding a trigger for additional mana like Fertile Ground?
21:30:25 <ais523> it replaces the mana they produce, IIRC
21:30:39 <ais523> probably is literally chromatic lantern, actually
21:30:51 <ais523> perhaps with misremembered details
21:31:14 <ais523> and it is in return to ravnica, which is where I said it was, just checked
21:31:18 <b_jonas> hmm wait, I think I remember something
21:31:18 <shachaf> But that doens't help you with non-land mana, or mana from before you had it.
21:31:24 <b_jonas> oh indeed, that's what you said
21:32:23 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, prismatic omen is another card along similar lines
21:32:28 <ais523> it gives all your lands all basic land types
21:32:39 <ais523> in addition to whatever they normally do
21:32:44 <shachaf> All of that is about producing karma, though.
21:33:02 <ais523> sort-of like urborg, but multicolored, doesn't help your opponent, and doesn't produce mana itself
21:33:07 <shachaf> You have to decide when you tap your land.
21:33:31 <b_jonas> I found Bog Initiate which converts to black
21:34:01 <shachaf> I didn't find anything that converts to green.
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21:36:57 <b_jonas> mind you, Orochi Leafcaller is sometimes good enough, because many decks that create lots of mana can create green
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21:37:57 <shachaf> Well, it isn't good enough for "convert to green".
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21:43:55 <b_jonas> shachaf: I can convert blue to any color using either Horseshoe Crab or Pemmin's Aura or Freed from the Real plus one other card of which there are many choices
21:44:22 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure how to convert from colorless mana
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21:44:23 <shachaf> Sure, but we were talking about converting *to* a particular color.
21:45:04 <b_jonas> I don't even see anything that converts {2} or {3} to {G}, infinitely repeatably
21:45:16 <b_jonas> except maybe very complicated combos
21:45:30 <b_jonas> I mean, so complicated that it's easier to just get an infinite mana combo
21:45:41 <b_jonas> one that generates infinite green mana
21:47:07 <b_jonas> ais523: is there something that lets you convert (colorless or white or red) mana to green in a way that's infinitely repeatable without requiring other resources, possibly consuming more than one mana?
21:47:31 <ais523> b_jonas: there's a combo that does that in my favourite deck but it's really complicated
21:47:53 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly, with a complicated combo, I can just generate infinite mana
21:48:40 <b_jonas> if you don't worry about how hard it is to set it up in a real game, it's easy to get a three-card infinite combo that generates any color
21:48:46 <ais523> my combo can generate infinite black, and can also convert 2B into BBC for any color C
21:49:00 <ais523> which is enough for infinite of any color
21:49:06 <b_jonas> the hard part is to make a deck that sets this up without the opponent disrupting the setup and winning
21:49:06 <ais523> but those are two separate steps
21:49:13 <ais523> (that happen to use the same cards, but in a different way)
21:49:25 <b_jonas> oh, I think you mentioned that combo
21:49:25 <ais523> actually, my deck is easy to disrupt, but can rebuild from basically nothing very quickly
21:49:29 <ais523> I've had times when someone's wrathed me
21:49:34 <ais523> the next turn I play out 10 creatures and combo out
21:49:39 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, does it invent nitia?
21:49:43 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
21:49:53 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, I'm optimistic, I think I can build an infinite mana deck that will work
21:50:19 <ais523> shachaf: no, it invents the inventor of nitia
21:50:40 <shachaf> "it" being the BBC it creates.
21:50:55 <shachaf> I suppose there's only one.
21:50:59 <ais523> I don't know in that case
21:51:07 <ais523> but it's /possible/, perhaps, on a sufficiently metaphysical level
21:51:14 <Taneb> ais523's combo invents the inventor of nitia. Taneb invented it.
21:51:16 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo Bike oerjan Taneb ais523 ais523 elliott oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
21:51:34 <shachaf> apparently nitia invented ais523
21:51:36 <ais523> that's a lot of culprits for such a pointless entry
21:51:39 <shachaf> this is getting pretty complicated
21:52:30 <HackEgo> oerjan Taneb oerjan oerjan elliott shachaf boily oerjan ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott FreeFull shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull Taneb shachaf shachaf nitia
21:52:37 <shachaf> truly, nitia is the inventor of all things
21:52:39 <b_jonas> hmm, it seems there are a couple of creature or artifact cards that have built-in abilities to untap for lots of mana. Those can be used with Utopia Vow or that better aura from Theros block to convert lots of colorless mana to any color
21:53:04 <b_jonas> Voltaic Construct is the easiest
21:53:19 <b_jonas> Voltaic Construct plus Scuttlemutt converts {2} to any color
21:55:17 <b_jonas> Voltaic Construct plus (Heartstone or Power Artifact or Training Grounds) plus Scuttlemutt lets you convert {1} to any color
21:56:19 <b_jonas> ok, so my solution is Voltaic Construct, Heartstone, Scuttlemutt
21:56:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: is that good enough?
21:57:04 <shachaf> I don't think I posed a problem.
21:58:49 <shachaf> Mana abilities are so complicated.
21:58:57 <shachaf> I wish this whole game was scrapped and replaced with something simpler.
21:59:36 <zzo38> Just make up a new game then
22:00:33 <zzo38> There are some stuff in Magic: the Gathering I don't like, for example I would remove the rules about Auras that are also creatures being discarded and stuff like that, as well as fixing the rules for card types and for some other things to make them more mathematically elegant; I think some rule not so mathematically elegant
22:02:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: yes, I was wondering what was the most complicated that could happen immediately when activating a mana ability. I know you can sacrifice a creature, but I can't seem to make that cause anything disastrous immediately using static effects.
22:02:49 <b_jonas> This Voltaic Construct is interesting. I wonder if I could use it somehow.
22:02:52 <zzo38> I mostly like Magic: the Gathering though, including how mana abilities work and so on
22:03:01 <zzo38> I like the puzzles especially
22:04:42 <zzo38> So I would also want to make up a new kind of entirely different card game, that can be invent a programming language to invent the game and then write the rules as literate computer program. Makes it more clearly. I would also do it much more mathematically elegant. (My plan was to make the game "Aberration Hater Card Game", with several game modes, such as Solomon vs Rochester vs Sealed, symmetric vs asymmetric, two-players vs three-players vs Bri
22:05:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Your message was cut off.
22:05:44 <shachaf> I like the idea of a game with computer-interprable rules which is mathematically elegant.
22:06:15 <shachaf> I've wondered what sort of programming language you'd need to be able to express something similar to Magic: The Gathering cards concisely.
22:06:53 <shachaf> Although if you were designing the system from scratch to work that way you could get away with not having some of the complications that Magic: The Gathering has.
22:06:56 <ais523> shachaf: better: write an interpreter that takes Oracle text as its input langauge
22:07:19 <shachaf> I don't think that's better.
22:07:48 <shachaf> Oracle English is better than regular English, but it's still very complicated and irregular.
22:07:56 <shachaf> And so are the rules themselves.
22:08:00 <zzo38> ais523: Actually my idea was to have both; have a natural language parser which allows formatting codes and various other codes, it can then be printed or converted to computer codes, and can include inline computer-codes which are not printed (in order to deal with irregulatities and so on).
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22:08:17 <zzo38> The rules themself though would be written using literate computer-code instead.
22:08:28 <shachaf> There should be a simple language which, if you want, you can translate to English card text. Though I don't know if that's even a good idea.
22:08:49 <shachaf> Things like MtG keywords should be like library calls, with the core rule set being relatively small.
22:09:00 <zzo38> Do you like my idea though? It is pretty much different.
22:09:21 <shachaf> The question is how to make a language/environment which can modify itself to the degree that MtG cards can.
22:09:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I did think of several ideas about it
22:09:51 <shachaf> (And is also nearly as concise as English.)
22:10:34 <zzo38> If you type () or [] then it is comments in the card text, but the formatting is different; () print with () included in printout and italics while [] is printed without the [] but text inside is printed, and then perhaps (- -) or {- -} or whatever might include inline computer-codes which are not included in the printout.
22:10:42 <oerjan> zzo38: your messages keep getting cut off. i think your irc client needs better message length handling. perhaps splitting but at least a warning.
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22:13:49 <rafajafar> anyone here interested in serialization? I'd reallllly like some conversation and feedback on a spec for binary data transfer that follows closely with json
22:14:00 <zzo38> If it is RDF then consider something like: [:counter [!_:a :target :spell]; :replacing [:when [:moving [:what _:a; :from :stack; :to :graveyard]]; :replace-with [:moving [:to :library]]]]
22:14:19 <rafajafar> I have the spec up here, am working on it, but sure could use some foresight from those who may have some: https://github.com/rafajafar/binjas/blob/master/specification.txt
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22:35:56 <shachaf> http://slbkbs.org/yawg-prime.png
22:36:13 <\oren\> rafajafar: have you heard of BSON?
22:37:00 <shachaf> BSON is a scow encoding, if I remember correctly.
22:37:09 <rafajafar> there are a lot of issues with it, primary of which is how frequently it actually makes things larger
22:37:20 <rafajafar> more importantly, it has data types that aren't necessary
22:37:36 <boily> shachaf: this is a prime?
22:38:01 <shachaf> the two 'j's are pronounced the same way hth
22:38:50 <oerjan> by philistines and infidels, maybe
22:39:08 <boily> shachaf: Norwegian j or Fren j?
22:39:29 <shachaf> Norwegianch or Fren? that's up to you
22:39:31 <boily> ghargh. can't even regexp tonight.
22:39:42 <boily> I'll go with Norwegianch. I am cursed.
22:40:19 * oerjan shall now endeavor to pronounce the two h's in shachaf's name equally
22:41:18 <\oren\> both palatalize the preceding shound
22:41:19 <rafajafar> \oren\: like it's very interesting that bson has a date data type when json itself doesn't
22:41:39 <oerjan> \oren\: i believe you are wrong hth
22:41:54 <oerjan> wait, i was supposed to annoy shachaf not defend him
22:42:00 <rafajafar> and it's not a data type in javascript
22:42:07 <shachaf> why would you want to annoy me?
22:42:11 <rafajafar> it's just a class that most implementations have built in
22:42:24 <\oren\> the c is pronounced as a /t/ in 'ch'
22:42:57 <shachaf> i don't even know what you're trying to say now
22:43:08 <shachaf> the ch is a voiceless uvular fricative hth
22:43:17 <oerjan> shachaf: sweet sweet vengeance hth
22:44:25 <oerjan> itt \oren\ confuses english and hebrew
22:44:44 <oerjan> or perhaps just tries to annoy shachaf
22:44:49 <shachaf> http://forvo.com/word/%D7%A9%D7%97%D7%A3/
22:45:34 <mauris_> i mentally say ʃɑχɑf or whatever
22:45:53 <boily> . o O ( /χχχχχχχχχχχχχχχχ/ )
22:45:55 <\oren\> then your spelling it worng hth.
22:46:02 <mauris_> nice i'm close, i just mentally englishify the vowels!
22:46:14 <shachaf> you're pronouncing it wrong hth
22:46:28 <shachaf> oerjan is truly an evil overlord
22:46:28 <mauris_> shachaf: i have pronounced words for forvo
22:46:39 <shachaf> planting confusion behind the scenes
22:46:46 <mauris_> "my good deed to the earth hth"
22:46:49 <shachaf> that's not the right verb but i'm too confused to think of the right one
22:46:52 <\oren\> shachaf: well that girl on that website is saying /ʃahaf/
22:47:09 <shachaf> no, she's using a fricative
22:47:52 <shachaf> here's another one http://forvo.com/word/shachaf/
22:47:55 <\oren\> well then it's shaghaf
22:47:56 <mauris_> you can hear her uvula go chhhh! it is right there
22:48:24 <oerjan> shachaf: is the stress on the first or the last syllable, that link sounded perfectly ambiguous
22:48:34 <boily> `` grep -FIin uvular wisdom/*
22:48:37 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory
22:48:39 <shachaf> only a norwegian would think that's ambiguous hth
22:48:40 <mauris_> shakhaf would work (this is what some people do for /x/ in russian)
22:48:52 <HackEgo> 1094) <Koen_> nooodl: when my girlfriend asks me to give her uvular fricative I'm pretty sure that's not what she means
22:48:54 <shachaf> mauris_: the russian sound is velar not uvular hth
22:49:05 <oerjan> hm the second was clearly on the first
22:49:17 <shachaf> oerjan: the emphasis in oerjan is on both syllables, right?
22:49:19 <\oren\> but normal engish speakers pronounce 'ch' as 'tʃ' ok
22:49:21 <shachaf> or something bizarre like that
22:49:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i've been stressing your name wrongly all this time tdnh
22:49:31 <mauris_> yes but to the western world it falls nicely under "weird foreign throaty sounds we'll just spell kh"
22:49:46 <shachaf> \oren\: i eschew that pronunciation hth
22:49:58 <shachaf> that sound isn't even throaty
22:50:31 <boily> shachaf: it depends. mostly yes.
22:50:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i find it a bit hard to decide. supposedly stress should be on the first syllable but it's not as distinct in words with the second pitch accent
22:50:58 <mauris_> it's usually the ch in your name but voiced!
22:51:28 <boily> mauris_: mostly. there is some variation between the trill and fricative.
22:52:08 <mauris_> i think i've heard approximants in canadaian french, or am i just loopy?
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22:52:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> that's not the right verb but i'm too confused to think of the right one <-- sow hth
22:52:59 <\oren\> yeah the kebecwas pronounce it like english r
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22:54:02 <boily> \oren\: that is highly dubious.
22:54:48 <\oren\> Hmm ok apparently that's only people from ottawa
22:55:00 <mauris_> what i've definitely heard from french canadians is like...
22:55:25 <mauris_> they'll say words like "hamburger" with approximants to stick close to english
22:55:45 <mauris_> whereas here in europe people go hambuʁʁʁʁʁgeʁʁʁʁʁ and it's funny
22:56:04 <\oren\> yeah all kebecwas do taht, defiantly
22:56:26 <boily> \oren\: sorry, you aren't even wrong.
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22:57:53 <\oren\> boily: you don't like my englishification of quebecois?
22:58:26 <boily> hamburger sounds kind of like /æmbə̥'gœɹ/.
23:00:02 <boily> \oren\: ma vengeance sera terrible!
23:00:23 <mauris_> boily: avez-vous un microphone? there's so few samples of canadian french on the internet :<
23:00:50 <boily> mauris_: j'ai un micro, et tu peux me tutoyer. any sentence you'd like to hear?
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23:01:50 <mauris_> just "hamburger" was on my mind, but you can optionally jam it into a sentence!
23:02:03 <boily> okay, let's try...
23:03:33 <\oren\> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6oeAdemFZw
23:03:47 <mauris_> also, neat! i thought people speaking languages with T-V distinction usually vouvoyer'd each other on the internet
23:04:37 <shachaf> when you say throaty, i think of e.g. pharyngeal sounds
23:04:41 <oerjan> \oren\: not available tdnh
23:04:55 <oerjan> it's ok i can imagine peter sellers in my mind
23:05:13 <\oren\> it isn't peter sellers
23:05:27 <oerjan> how can it not be peter sellers
23:05:36 <\oren\> there was a remake hth
23:06:02 <HackEgo> His Master's Phonetic Hmph
23:06:06 <oerjan> i think i shall imagine peter sellers anyhow hth
23:06:20 <boily> mroman: https://www.dropbox.com/s/xe7pj3e4psp5p90/hamburger.ogg?dl=0
23:06:41 <tswett> Did someone say a programming language to express Magic: the Gathering cards in?
23:06:45 <oerjan> or i can just click in the sidebar
23:06:56 <boily> oerjan: you made me laugh with your omburguère.
23:07:29 <tswett> effect = add_blocking_restriction(lambda victim: not victim.flying)
23:07:58 <boily> hm. confused mroman and mauris.
23:08:02 <mauris_> boily: this is adorable <3
23:08:20 <mauris_> also canadian french is freaky
23:08:23 <tswett> I mean, with Python you can't define a method using = like that.
23:08:44 <mauris_> i can only understand like 25% of this, the ts and dz throws me off
23:08:48 <boily> mauris_: it was quite standard French. I was light with the regionalisms.
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23:09:07 <mauris_> (mind, i can only understand like 50% of france french to begin with)
23:09:47 <tswett> def effect(self): deal_damage(self.targets.player, 4); for c in self.targets.player.creatures { deal_damage(c, 4) }
23:10:18 <oerjan> ok that'll do, mustn't overdose
23:11:41 <tswett> def effect(self): card = self.targets.creature.controller.reveal_random_from_hand(); cmc = card.converted_mana_cost; self.deal_damage(self.targets.creature, cmc); self.deal_damage(self.targets.creature.controller, cmc)
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23:12:04 <mauris_> tswett: pff what if add_blocking_restriction returns a lambda that takes a `self` parameter that (etc.)
23:12:07 <\oren\> that sounded like a normal english r in ambergar
23:12:45 <tswett> mauris_: then I'll punch whoever wrote the framework in the face.
23:13:24 <\oren\> tswett: until they give you a good api? sounds reasonable
23:14:25 <tswett> def attack_trigger(self): victim = self.controller.select_target(creature); if victim is not None: victim.add_blocking_restriction(lambda: false, until_end_of_turn)
23:14:41 <tswett> You know, this would actually be an interesting challenge.
23:14:55 <oerjan> Amberg: a small german village whose inhabitants are furious that a misspelling caused Hamburg to steal the credit for their gastronomical masterpiece
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23:16:14 <tswett> Amberg is named after a person who once found a piece of ambergris lying on the beach, but then had their legs eaten by a bear and they died, so in that person's memory the townsfolk chopped off the last three letters of the word "ambergris".
23:16:35 <tswett> Actually, it's the other way around.
23:16:50 <boily> they chopped the legs off a whale?
23:17:00 <tswett> Ambergris is named after its discoverer, a person whose name was Chris, and who was from Amberg, and thus was called Amberg Chris.
23:17:17 <\oren\> Amberg is halfway between regensberg and bayreuth, which I assume is the german version of beirut
23:17:28 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
23:17:30 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
23:17:44 <tswett> The monoid/monoids situation must be rectified.
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23:18:25 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
23:18:32 <boily> tswett: no no no no no! It's just a German conflagration of a strong verb and a mountain. male boasting, if you want. Am berg. Are berg. Is berg. You small-hill.
23:18:33 <HackEgo> Bicategories are just categories where composition is only associative up to an isomorphism.
23:18:53 <oerjan> `learn Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
23:18:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'monoid': Monoids are just the easy version of categories with a single object.
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23:18:59 <\oren\> amberg is next to a town called bamberg
23:19:12 <oerjan> tswett: that what you meant?
23:19:19 <tswett> oerjan: you're aware, of course, that the combined wisdom doesn't really make sense.
23:19:35 <tswett> `le/rn category/A category is just a category object in the category of classes.
23:20:10 <oerjan> tswett: actually i think it makes perfect sense.
23:20:28 <\oren\> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bamberg_potato
23:21:11 <oerjan> boily: shouldn't that be Eisberg hth
23:21:54 <\oren\> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Franconia_details.png as you can see, Amberg, Bamberg and Nuremberg are close to each other
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23:26:02 <boily> oerjan: you're thinking of a salad hth
23:28:17 <tswett> Apparently when Magic R&D is playtesting, they use cards that look like this: http://media.wizards.com/legacy/global/images/mtgcom_daily_af40_picmain_en.jpg
23:28:32 <tswett> The entire contents of that card, for our viewers at home:
23:31:08 <tswett> `le/rn kayayaya/Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya. Ka-ya-ya-ya-ya.
23:31:16 <tswett> In case anyone was wondering.
23:32:24 <tswett> Man, "loudly" has got to be the best thing I've done for this channel.
23:32:34 <tswett> I don't know why you aren't all heaping praise upon me.
23:34:06 <int-e> tswett: I'm sure we're all afraid of suffocating you.
23:34:13 <boily> tswett: imperial or metric heap?
23:34:13 <tswett> Ah, yes, that must be it.
23:40:21 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
23:49:03 <int-e> does it have a wisard?
23:53:31 <int-e> sorry, what's the difference?
23:56:08 <int-e> (mental spell correction working a little too well, perhaps?)
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00:17:12 <zzo38> No I was to make new kind of programming language for Magic: the Gathering, so not Python. If existing one is use then possibly Haskell, but I would think a new one so that the compiler can figure out what stuff can interfere and add all necessary checks in the proper places.
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00:18:16 <mauris_> http://puu.sh/kn5vc/737a29bddb.png help, i can't do proofs
00:19:54 <mauris_> what is that question mark trying to tell me
00:32:38 <int-e> mauris_: it's not clear what y_5 is supposed to be.
00:36:32 <int-e> (from a slightly different perspective, there are two choices for P_5: P_5(x) = t_2(x), and P_5(x) = t_2(y_2))
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01:05:38 <tswett> zzo38: could you give an example of "stuff that can interfere" and the necessary checks?
01:07:39 <zzo38> tswett: I think I gave a few examples above, but other examples can be text-editing effects, replacement effects, and other stuff. So the programming language must support the types of triggers, events, actions, overrides, replacements, etc. I thought to use extensible types for such things.
01:09:19 <zzo38> RDF represents the data as a directed graph and allows adding nodes/edges anywhere in the graph, so I thought to represent the program as a RDF graph; you can have multiple graphs combined together (with duplicate edges removed afterward) and then macro processed (using Macro-RDF, which is something else I invented), and then finally is compiled into Haskell codes or C codes or whatever
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01:11:41 <zzo38> There are a few similarities to rule-based and aspect-based programming too, but this is more of a declarative kind of system
01:11:45 <tswett> Magic cards definitely seem more code-like than data-like to me.
01:11:53 <tswett> Yeah, I can see why you'd want a specialized language.
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01:13:38 <zzo38> Yes it is more code-like than data-like, although depending on programming languages you can treat them in similar ways.
01:14:08 <tswett> I think a general-purpose programming language like Python, Haskell or C# would definitely do it, but a specialized language would do it more concisely.
01:14:12 <zzo38> I did show an example code above; what is your opinion of that one?
01:14:25 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, that is how I meant; a specialized language would do it better
01:16:24 <HackEgo> cyberdrone/cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
01:22:44 <tswett> A cyberspace is a space object in the category of cyber algebras.
01:23:07 <tswett> A cyberdrone is a drone object in the category of cyber algebras.
01:23:18 <tswett> A Pop Tart is a Tart object in the category of Pop algebras.
01:23:56 <tswett> A Tart object is an object object in the category of Tart algebras.
01:24:05 <tswett> An object object is an object object in the category of object algebras.
01:24:20 <tswett> An object algebra is an algebra object in the category of object algebras.
01:24:35 <tswett> An algebra object is an algebra object in the category of algebra algebras.
01:25:48 <tswett> A pepperoni pizza is a pizza object in the category of pepperoni algebras.
01:26:26 <shachaf> we got the idea a long time ago hth
01:32:29 <boily> fellowl. long time no see.
01:32:40 <HackEgo> unicide/Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
01:32:49 <HackEgo> indentity function/indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
01:35:14 <HackEgo> welkom/Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
01:35:37 <shachaf> that message is out of date tdnh
01:36:00 <boily> mauris: care to certify the Dutchiness degree of that message?
01:36:28 <boily> (afair, you're Belgian and/or Netherlandsish.)
01:36:58 <shachaf> i didn't say it was out of dutch hth
01:38:21 <boily> datch, dute, date, dutch, it's the same concept observed differently.
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01:48:09 <izabera> http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/208516/can-tin-foil-hats-block-anything
01:49:04 <zzo38> Maybe a tin foil hat might block trying to see your hair
01:50:29 <izabera> you can pretend you're not bald
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01:51:31 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:52:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/irc.dal.net/EFnet of DALnet/' wisdom/welkom; mv wisdom/wel{kom,come.nl}
01:55:19 <fizzie> EFnet is now of DALnet?
02:07:26 <HackEgo> Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op EFnet of DALnet.)
02:07:35 <oerjan> fizzie: only if you're dutch
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02:23:59 <blurelIse> copper mesh/net hats are much more effective
02:25:14 <blurelIse> so is slitting your wrists vertically, but hollywood likes to just portray things rather than give specific instructions ;)
02:29:18 <zzo38> If you are trying to block signals then yes copper mesh is probably much more effective
02:37:59 <blurelIse> if you were reallllly paranoid you could also go for teh 5 inch thick led hat
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02:55:08 <oerjan> yay i made it past all the magic blathering
03:02:34 <HackEgo> danddreclist 68: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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03:37:15 <hppavilion[1]> Does philosophy have axioms the same way mathematics does?
03:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> Or perhaps is there a philisopical notation that looks like math?
03:39:07 <zzo38> Only if you are being logical, I think? But sometimes in philosophy you must go beyond logic, otherwise who can tell the logic if it is good?
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03:40:31 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It can depend on what you are writing about I think; in some cases symbolic logic helps but mostly you just have to write in other ways since there is no mathematical notation to explain it when you are using the notation alone without any text to explain it.
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03:45:53 <\oren\> Dwarf fortress dwarves are stupid
03:46:49 <\oren\> if you have a pond that is connected to another pond by a u-bend, they will try to fill one pond from the other
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03:48:41 <\oren\> in fact, if the u-bend is walkable, they will walk through the tunnel from one pond to the other, tryingto fill the pond with the water they are walking through. retards
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04:03:09 <Sgeo> My documentation output is being butchered
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05:06:46 <izabera> did you know that voldemort can't love because he was conceived under a love potion?
05:08:33 <zzo38> O, is that why? Is that what a love potion is for?
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05:09:15 <izabera> no a love potion is not supposed to produce monsters
05:10:00 <zzo38> I meant if it is used to prevent those conceived under it from loving
05:11:04 <zzo38> I don't know why you such a thing would be done, unless it is a side-effect of something else
05:11:05 <izabera> his mother died and he was raised in an orphanage and was never loved
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05:11:41 <zzo38> But I thought you said he can't love because he was conceived under a love potion?
05:12:32 <izabera> there are several factors that contributed
05:12:36 <izabera> http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/7/30/j-k-rowling-web-chat-transcript
05:12:40 <zzo38> That is what I thought.
05:50:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44386&oldid=44384 * Keymaker * (+414) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
05:52:42 <hppavilion[1]> Mathematician's worst nightmare: Hambiguous notation
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06:52:48 <zzo38> The picture on this computer monitor is not visible when viewed from "REALD" 3-D glasses backwards and rotated 45 degrees.
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07:32:59 <oerjan> ooh new xkcd whatif this week
07:33:17 <oerjan> myname: what about green eggs
07:33:52 <lifthrasiir> oerjan: the most undefined what-if conclusion so far
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08:39:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44387&oldid=44386 * Martin Büttner * (+366) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
08:41:07 * oerjan feels so efficient when closing monomorphism restriction questions as duplicates on SO
08:44:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44388&oldid=44387 * Martin Büttner * (+405) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
08:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44389&oldid=44388 * Martin Büttner * (-3) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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10:02:31 <fizzie> "Hosting an intern is a big responsibility. Please ensure you’re prepared to commit the time and energy --" they're making that sound like having a pet.
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10:14:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44390&oldid=44389 * Keymaker * (+367) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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10:48:39 <b_jonas> "photons in metric". Steve is crazy.
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12:01:05 <mroman_> guess that means my vserver is now gone :)
12:49:17 <mroman_> foo a b c q{trim(a +len(b) -len(c) q)}
12:50:09 <mroman_> trim(a+len(b)-len(c)q) is trim(a,len(b)+(len(c)-q))
12:56:00 <coppro> fizzie: that's because it is
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13:28:24 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/pAThBaWf <- my current WIP
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13:50:30 <mroman_> migraine and cold together sucks even more
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14:41:38 <HackEgo> U+20E4 COMBINING ENCLOSING UPWARD POINTING TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 83 a4 UTF-16BE: 20e4 Decimal: ⃤ \ ⃤ \ Category: Me (Mark, Enclosing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing Mark) \ \ U+22BF RIGHT TRIANGLE \ UTF-8: e2 8a bf UTF-16BE: 22bf Decimal: ⊿ \ ⊿ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+23
14:41:46 <ais523> `unicode EQUALS TRIANGLE
14:41:49 <ais523> `unicode EQUALS.*TRIANGLE
14:41:52 <ais523> `unicode EQUALS*TRIANGLE
14:42:01 <ais523> `` unicode TRIANGLE | paste
14:42:05 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.16546
14:42:24 <ais523> `` unicode --max 100 TRIANGLE | paste
14:42:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.2465
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15:58:18 <tswett> So where'd blsqbot go?
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16:10:16 <ais523> so currently, Magic: the Gathering Online has a bug where the non-promo version of Relic Seeker works correctly, and the promo version has a bug
16:10:24 <ais523> and people are trying to figure out htf you mess that up that badly
16:11:22 <myname> in theory, the promo info should just be a bool
16:11:38 <shachaf> Do they have un-cards in mtgo?
16:12:02 <ais523> myname: probably an enum, you can have multiple promo versions of a card
16:12:43 <shachaf> Are there any other occasions where a different version of a card has behaved differently?
16:14:00 <ais523> shachaf: it wasn't specified on the MTGO known issues list, which is the source for this issue that I was linked to
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16:24:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44391&oldid=44251 * Martin Büttner * (+158) /* External Resources */ Add Hexagony Colorer
16:25:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hexagony]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44392&oldid=44391 * Martin Büttner * (+32) /* External Resources */
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16:52:09 <int-e> darn, I forgot how tedious to prove the beer drinker's paradox is with natural deduction in first order logic
16:54:27 <ais523> int-e: is that the "in any pub, there's some person for which if they drink, everyone drinks" theorem?
16:55:56 <int-e> http://incredible.nomeata.de/ has that as one of its examples; mauris was struggling with that 17 hours ago.
16:58:27 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought it was more like "in any pub there exists some person such that if they are drinking then everyone is drinking"
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16:59:11 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: that's the same
16:59:30 <ais523> right; my statement of the theorem is a little ambiguous, but traditional
16:59:39 * int-e may be missing the ambiguity.
16:59:46 <ais523> because it makes the statement seeming more implausible
16:59:55 <ais523> int-e: logical "if" versus causation "if"
17:00:21 <int-e> Oh, I guess I'm too much of a logician :P
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17:03:14 <int-e> (I struggled for a while as well, but I got it in the end)
17:04:06 <gamemanj> what on earth is that weird madness of block diagrams
17:04:39 <gamemanj> to me it just looks like a graphical esolang
17:05:49 <int-e> it's a representation of formal proofs; basically you plug in proved statements as premises of other rules ...
17:06:55 <int-e> ... but there are some funny rules (for proving implications or case distinctions arising out of disjunctions in premises) that introduce new premises... those make it a bit tricky.
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18:16:17 <zzo38> How does that representations works, do you have example, and what funny rules involved?
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18:20:09 <shachaf> 19:44 <blurelIse> toyed with the idea of writing my own coding language before i found this room
18:20:12 <shachaf> 19:46 <@DarwinElf> I've thought about this, but this channel is about mysticism/esoterism/occultism, etc.
18:20:16 <shachaf> oerjan: efnet #esoteric hth
18:21:19 <HackEgo> blurelIse: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:21:30 <ais523> shachaf: huh, people go to the other #esoterics looking for us?
18:21:32 <ais523> I guess it makes sense
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18:34:45 <zzo38> Stuff such as CTRL+C and so on is not working properly in DOSBox
18:35:32 <shachaf> Not working properly to copy, or not working properly to cancel?
18:37:39 <zzo38> It doesn't cancel, it just prints a heart shape instead
18:38:05 <zzo38> This means some programs do not work properly due to this
18:38:30 <zzo38> (The graphic for CTRL+C in the PC character set is a heart shape.)
18:43:08 <gamemanj> Um, well, did DOS even do ctrl+c = break?
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18:48:59 <zzo38> DOSBox also does not support F3 and other stuff like that other than at the main command prompt, even though with some programs it is usable in a real DOS system
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19:01:46 <HackEgo> [U+0259 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA]
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19:40:56 <ais523> tswett: you have some experience with schwas, right?
19:41:01 <ais523> oh wow, it's on my compose key
19:41:09 <ais523> that seems like it might be potentially useful
19:41:49 <ais523> only potentially, though
19:41:57 <ais523> perhaps if we have a schwa-based esolang it'll make it easier to type
19:42:38 <tswett> Yeah. It's just that the character looked slightly weird in this font, so I was wondering if maybe it was some *other* schwa character.
19:42:47 <tswett> ais523: hey, do you have a good compose file for IPA?
19:43:00 <ais523> tswett: I'm using Ubuntu's default compose file, I think
19:43:18 <tswett> Does that actually let you type most characters in IPA?
19:43:19 <ais523> some symbols I want (such as Greek letters) are either missing or I can't figure out how to type them (or both, I guess)
19:43:25 <ais523> but it surprises me about what letters are there
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19:46:08 <tswett> Yeah, supposedly all I have to do is use the DEAD_GREEK key, but I don't know how I'm supposed to do that, given that my keyboard has no physical DEAD_GREEK key and I don't feel like mapping any physical key to that.
19:46:20 <ais523> I suggest altgr-capslock
19:46:26 <tswett> You'd hope I would be able to say that two other keys compose to DEAD_GREEK or something.
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19:51:54 <zzo38> I invented a "Customizer" prestige class for Dungeons&Dragons game, there is a menu of special features but I think that menu isn't quite right
19:54:09 <zzo38> Do you have suggestion of improvement?
19:57:31 <ais523> I like the idea of a lambda calculator
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20:06:29 <zzo38> Class can be selected at minimum levels 5, 9, 13, 17, 21, etc. Skill points = 3 + Int mod; Class skills = all; Proficiencies = none; Base attack = zero; Base saves = zero; Hit points = d2; at each level you can also select one bonus feat.
20:09:05 <zzo38> How to make the improvement?
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20:15:49 <zzo38> I also had a menu of special features you can select from which include: +1 HP, +1 base attack, +1 to a single base save, +3 skills, etc but I think that isn't very good, now. Would it be improve reasonably to do like: Skill points is now 1 + Int mod, hit points is now d1, no special feature, but do you do get 2 bonus feats both of which must be different? Or is that too much or not enough or both?
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20:39:36 <b_jonas> you know that "The only two bugs are" is a "famous last words" suspect sentence
20:40:07 <b_jonas> if you say that, you're calling the software against you and you'll soon meet a very severe bug that impacts everything
20:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> A) If I try to highlight named expression names (in expressions and in assignments), it highlights in comments, too
20:40:48 <hppavilion[1]> B) Until you resize the window, the execute widget bugs out strangely (weird resizing things, overflow, etc)
20:41:26 <hppavilion[1]> (I haven't implemented anything more than a lexer yet)
20:41:47 <hppavilion[1]> It's actually a part of a bigger open-source project called LIME
20:42:05 <hppavilion[1]> Which will, if all goes according to plan, be a general math helper
20:43:02 <hppavilion[1]> (Autographer meaning it graphs algebraic and geometric things)
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20:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps by allowing named expressions to include subscripts and *s?
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20:47:55 <hppavilion[1]> Instead of JUST single-character names, you can also do N[#] and N*
20:48:37 <zzo38> O, so the software is not complete if cannot currently even do a lambda-calculus at all!
20:51:43 <hppavilion[1]> I just started it a few days ago, INCLUDING the part where I learn about λ-calculus
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21:05:18 <zzo38> But you said you got it working?
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21:12:29 <zzo38> I have figured out that the visibility of different displays is affected differently by "REALD" glasses, and that it also depends on rotation, forward/backward, and/or which lens is used, depending on the display. What properties of a display can be determined using this?
21:17:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: REALD glasses are of what sort? color filter, polarized, or synchronized flashing/
21:17:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, what types of displays? colored TFT?
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21:30:58 <zzo38> I think I have heard that they are circular polarized, but I am not completely sure. I do not know what type of display (I cannot find the manual right now), and there are more than one as they are different types of displays perhaps. I want to know if REALD glasses would be able to be use to figure out what kind of display in this way.
21:31:22 <hppavilion[1]> I have all the combinator birds from To Mock a Mockingbird copied into a file for my λ-calculator.
21:31:33 <hppavilion[1]> Because this is the new Combinatory Logic Playground
21:32:32 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: When I said I got it working I really just meant the GUI. I currently have (partial) syntax highlighting and a half-complete menubar (File works except for exit, not Edit)
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21:35:32 <hppavilion[1]> λ-calculus shouldn't be /too/ hard to implement. I mean, it can be described as "the smallest universal programming language" AND it is represented in 3 lines of BNF (though I will be adding some extra stuff for simplicity in usage)
21:37:14 <hppavilion[1]> I might add an "Advanced" λ-calculus mode that does IO and things
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22:00:09 <ais523> I was working on Underlambda, but haven't got much done recently
22:00:16 <ais523> other than much of the spec having stabilized
22:00:30 <ais523> I'm really happy with the use of - for extracting list elements
22:00:50 <Bjarne_> I've not been doing much lately
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22:07:33 <int-e> mauris: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/beer-drinkers-paradox.svg is the simplest proof of the incredible proof machine example you worked on yesterday that I was able to come up with
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22:13:00 <Bjarne_> well now it's really quiet
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22:21:39 <mauris> int-e: that looks ridiculously complicated
22:21:56 <mauris> i expected it to be simple because it was the first one with quantifiers
22:22:09 <shachaf> int-e: could you import nonfree in lambdabot twh
22:23:36 <shachaf> Wait, you need two TNDs for that proof?
22:26:54 <int-e> it's possible that I'm doing something stupid, but yeah I did.
22:28:13 <int-e> one comes from converting from not exists P to forall not P, the other is the case distinction whether there is a non-drinker or not
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22:32:30 <int-e> err, the first (which really is the second...) converts not exists not P to forall P
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22:57:36 <zzo38> How do I make a protocol handler in Firefox that would require a HTTP proxy to be used to access the data (for example if you write "x-whatever://example.org:123/this" then it send "GET x-whatever://example.org:123/this HTTP/1.1" to the proxy server)?
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22:58:41 <shachaf> I don't know about protocol handlers in Firefox, but you can configure proxies for URLs in general with a JavaScript function.
22:59:20 <zzo38> I know that, but I want to force it to use a HTTP proxy
23:00:41 <zzo38> And ignore any other proxy handlers
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23:12:10 <hppavilion[1]> So here's a type of cryptography I'd like to see someone talk about that probably is already a thing
23:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> (Not the same as an Encrypted Executable File, but could be connected)
23:12:46 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: is that like homomorphic encryption? or weaker?
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23:14:59 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you have an algorithm that converts a simple message into a brainfuck program that produces that message
23:15:35 <hppavilion[1]> But not by a key, instead by some convoluted algorithm that uses every hack and shortcut imaginable that can be performed automatically
23:16:07 <hppavilion[1]> Then, you just transmit the message, and you decrypt it using your standard BF interpreter (that complies with the encryptor's desired interpreter)
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23:17:18 <hppavilion[1]> Even better: Interactive/Protected Executable Encryption (IPEE xD). You do all that, BUT you also require a password to be entered that takes advantage of yet more hacks and shortcuts
23:17:25 <b_jonas> Um, and that would be good why, besides obscuring email addresses with javascript in HTML pages? I don't think that would be a good idea for cryptography.
23:18:11 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, you encrypt a message by writing a program that hacks another program that accepts a password
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23:18:43 <hppavilion[1]> It isn't good for normal cryptography, BUT you WOULD also encrypt it using a /secondary/ algorithm.
23:18:56 <hppavilion[1]> That way, even when they crack the message, they can't tell that they did because of the plaintext
23:19:10 <hppavilion[1]> (The secondary algorithm should probably always generate valid BF)
23:20:09 <hppavilion[1]> And make the program generated REALLY inefficient, so they have to spend longer debraincrypting it.
23:20:35 <b_jonas> I don't get the point really.
23:22:08 <hppavilion[1]> Programmatic Encryption is a secondary encryption algorithm used to obscure the plaintext of an encrypted text, thus making it nigh-impossible to recognize when you've cracked it, barring running a pretty inefficient piece of code manually
23:24:49 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: A better example than braincrypt is to use an indefinite-dimensional (that is, have a .meta file declaring how many dimensions the program is) self-modifying (both the code itself AND the intepreter running it), highly-compact, interpreted language that is different for each message.
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23:25:22 <hppavilion[1]> Something that requires a computer that isn't mentally bound by the real world to even comprehend what's going on
23:25:28 <int-e> oerjan: if that's a GG reference I haven't seen it yet
23:25:39 <oerjan> int-e: that's why i tried to make it subtle
23:25:49 <hppavilion[1]> Which poses a problem for the programmer making it (which is why we have abstraction)
23:26:00 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: What do you think of the /better/ example?
23:26:24 <hppavilion[1]> I realize it'd be pretty hard (nigh-impossible) to write a program to generate that code, but...
23:27:17 <oerjan> maybe zeetha can give hoffman some dating tips
23:30:52 <oerjan> oh well, who knows whose side seffie is on, really. did we see her do anything hideously evil yet
23:30:55 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: The general idea is basically an encryption algorithm whose cyphertext is a TC language that can only be decrypted through execution
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23:32:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'mt trying to get people talking about Executable Encryption (not as in encrypting an executable file)
23:33:13 <adu> what do you mean?
23:33:27 <hppavilion[1]> The general idea is basically an encryption algorithm whose cyphertext is a TC language that can only be decrypted through execution
23:33:49 <hppavilion[1]> "A better example than braincrypt is to use an indefinite-dimensional (that is, have a .meta file declaring how many dimensions the program is) self-modifying (both the code itself AND the intepreter running it), highly-compact, interpreted language that is different for each message."
23:33:50 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I hate that
23:33:55 * oerjan realizes even the foglios cannot spell hoffman\+ consistently
23:34:19 <hppavilion[1]> (Braincrypt is an algorithm that generates hacky brainfuck code)
23:34:51 <adu> I especially hate it when it's a PDF or HTML documentation about some Windows component, and the only form M$ provides that documentation is as a self-extracting .exe file and I'm downloading it on a Mac, really pisses me off
23:35:41 <zzo38> Did you try using 7-Zip?
23:35:44 <adu> granted, there are differences between encryption and compression
23:36:14 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm talking about something entirely unrelated (but possibly mixable)
23:36:18 <adu> I think I ended up using MacPorts to install Wine, which then ran the self-extractor
23:36:48 <adu> hppavilion[1]: now if you could somehow do it portably, then yes, I'm interested
23:37:34 <hppavilion[1]> Well it'd definitely be portable, because the language would be interpreted (as interpretation is actually BETTER at obfuscation in this case xD)
23:38:02 <hppavilion[1]> And I'd write the initial interpreter and encoder in Python...
23:38:18 <adu> yes, VMs usually add a layer of obfuscation by nature
23:39:11 <adu> yeah, just try using gdb on any language that compiles to C
23:39:20 <hppavilion[1]> This language would basically be 16-dimensional Befunge with some Malebolgy components and a a lot of shortcuts
23:39:46 <hppavilion[1]> (16-dimensional because that's pretty much impossible for a human to visualize AND it's a power of 2)
23:40:56 <adu> I like Befunge
23:41:14 <adu> I once wrote a Funge-98 interpreter in Perl
23:41:23 <adu> hppavilion[1]: what's your top 4?
23:41:53 <adu> hppavilion[1]: it was complete in that I implemented the 8 brainfuck related commands, plus it was arbitrary-dimentional
23:42:14 <adu> I don't think I ever started on the module loading into uppercase letters
23:42:54 <adu> I spent a grand total of a week on it, so not "compliant"
23:42:54 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: my hunch is that the problem with making an encryption system by heaping on complexity is that it's too complicated to see that there are no shortcuts to _breaking_ it.
23:43:03 <adu> but it was complete enough for me
23:43:23 <hppavilion[1]> It's more of a thought experiment than anything else
23:43:40 <hppavilion[1]> adu: Well this language would be convoluted, complex, and generally just cryworthy.
23:44:57 <adu> I don't think Befunge was ever cryworthy, I think it's a beautiful language
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23:46:20 <adu> it compressed simple fundamental operations into the smallest unit that's useful in text editors: a byte
23:47:24 <adu> I think most programming language are a waste of time
23:48:10 <adu> Rust I think is on the right track, their standards process early on decided that no keyword could be longer than 5 characters.
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23:48:28 <oerjan> int-e: hm why _wouldn't_ martellus assume agatha has the book, he knows they were in the same spot after all...
23:48:51 <int-e> too many unknowns, but I don't get "seffie"
23:49:04 <oerjan> xerxsephnia's nickname
23:50:23 <int-e> it's been a while, hasn't it...
23:50:43 <oerjan> they _did_ meet her when they arrived in paris
23:53:27 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I think the only exception is "continue"
23:53:59 <oerjan> http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20150605
23:55:32 <int-e> oh well, that was almost 4 months ago...
23:55:59 <oerjan> those pesky time flies
23:56:06 <int-e> (I'm ready to forgive myself for having forgotten :P)
23:56:40 <int-e> anyway... good night, I think.
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00:06:57 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "(Applicative f, Traversable t) => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)"
00:07:22 <oerjan> @free (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
00:07:22 <lambdabot> Pattern match failure in do expression at src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Free/FreeTheorem.hs:54:21-35
00:07:32 <oerjan> @free t :: (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b)
00:07:33 <lambdabot> Plugin `free' failed with: src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Haskell/Free/Type.hs:(152,17)-(160,45): Non-exhaustive patterns in case
00:08:23 <lambdabot> free <ident>. Generate theorems for free
00:08:46 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "Floating a => a -> a"
00:09:01 <oerjan> has @free been broken completely
00:09:10 <lambdabot> g . h = k . f => $map g . map h = map k . $map f
00:09:30 <lambdabot> Extra stuff at end of line in retrieved type "(Monad m, Traversable t) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)"
00:10:14 <oerjan> @free traverse :: (a -> IO b) -> [a] -> IO [b]
00:10:15 <lambdabot> $map_IO g . h = k . f => $map_IO ($map g) . traverse h = traverse k . $map f
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00:31:44 <izabera> i'm eating a can of tuna and on the can there's this text: bast before 18/09/2017 09:53
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00:32:37 <izabera> (it's in italian so that part doesn't really matter)
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00:51:25 <zzo38> I want to force the "mUsingConnect" of "nsHttpConnectionInfo" to false; it is set in the "Init" method but I want to override it in a JavaScript code so that it forces false
00:55:06 <zzo38> I want to force it not to use the CONNECT method
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01:01:22 <newsham> in brainfuck, does "[" always reference the same cell on each iteration, or does it dynamically reference the current pointer when "]" is encountered?
01:02:06 <izabera> why does it have to be dynamic?
01:02:28 <newsham> both choices are valid, i want to know what brainfuck defines
01:02:48 <pikhq> newsham: It refers to the current pointer.
01:03:45 <izabera> i think i need a clarification on that question
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01:04:38 <newsham> thank you, that solved my bug :)
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01:07:38 <oerjan> <shachaf> 19:44 <blurelIse> toyed with the idea of writing my own coding language before i found this room <-- i'm going to assume e joined on the wrong network by mistake
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01:09:34 <oerjan> gender neutral pronoun
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01:10:09 <oerjan> it's the official GNP in Agora Nomic
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01:11:21 <izabera> how did that become official?
01:11:39 <oerjan> well, traditional, anyway. it may not be an actual rule.
01:11:44 <izabera> spivak's are so different from everything else... i'd much rather use zie/hir
01:11:58 <oerjan> i'm not sure, it's possible we inherited it from Nomic World
01:12:38 <oerjan> (can i use "we" despite currently not being a Player? well, i just did.)
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01:13:00 <pikhq> The tradition comes because Suber (inventor of Nomic) was fond of Spivak pronouns.
01:13:22 <izabera> do you all play nomic here?
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01:13:37 <oerjan> oh was it in the original suber set too...
01:13:39 <pikhq> Not *all* of us, but definitely a higher proportion than normal.
01:14:36 <pikhq> I don't entirely know.
01:14:48 <oerjan> shachaf: somewhere below 1% i guess
01:15:27 <pikhq> Homo sapiens sapiens.
01:16:08 <oerjan> hm doesn't look like it
01:17:55 <oerjan> it's not in the original nomic world ruleset, but it's in this version http://www.nomic.net/deadgames/nomicworld/norrish/ruleset-1dec92
01:18:42 <oerjan> rather inconsistently in a single rule.
01:18:53 <oerjan> (other rules use "he or she" and "they")
01:21:00 <oerjan> eek dead link to ruleset collection
01:22:20 <oerjan> ah the initial Agora ruleset had 5 instances https://www.fysh.org/~zefram/agora/chuck0_nr_19930630.txt
01:24:58 <shachaf> what if this nomic thing was a complicated distributed system where by the time a proposal you submit to amend the rules is seen by other people, the rules they know about have already changed
01:25:59 <oerjan> sounds cool, but probably not workable with the number of players a game tends to get
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01:38:13 <oerjan> this lambda calculus discussion made me wonder
01:38:42 <oerjan> can you write the S combinator as a lambda expression using only 2 variables
01:44:09 <shachaf> hey, you're not completely trivial
01:44:28 <oerjan> you don't know that hth
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01:45:48 <shachaf> oerjan: interesting question
01:45:56 <shachaf> my first guess is that the answer is no
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01:47:52 <oerjan> K and KI give you booleans
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01:48:01 <oerjan> can you encode pairs...
01:51:34 <oerjan> hm you have church numerals
01:55:43 <shachaf> this is like de bruijn indices where you only allow 0 or 1
02:03:26 <shachaf> it's interesting that in BCKW, CKW correspond to the three types of structure people talk about in substructural type systems
02:04:01 <izabera> my pastebin served pages to over 1000 different ip addresses since august 23
02:04:08 <shachaf> what sort of substructural type system has reordering, discarding, and duplication, but not composition?
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03:24:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44393&oldid=44259 * 198.58.161.28 * (-10) /* Compilation */ Befunjit paragraph applies to Bejit as well
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04:25:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vihan * New user account
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05:02:21 <zzo38> HSTS can be disabled in Firefox by the use of a hexeditor. But I have read that HSTS flags cannot be deleted on iPad even if the device is wiped, and can leave an indelible mark by the use of HSTS supercookies. Actually I think it may be possible to get rid of them if you can use a proxy server to set all of the HSTS flags that make up that supercookie; it is kind of like deleting the data on a punch card by punching all of the positions.
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05:25:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44394 * Vihan * (+2521) Added specification
05:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44395&oldid=44279 * Vihan * (+11) Added HALT
05:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44396&oldid=44394 * Vihan * (+81) Added Interpreter
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05:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44397&oldid=44396 * Vihan * (+197)
05:46:49 <zzo38> The X cursor font is missing a magnifier icon; it seems to have everything else.
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06:26:55 <oerjan> hm wait was that the right syntax
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06:37:29 <izabera> glue 3 and 5 together and you get 35
06:38:24 <izabera> does this sequence always stop for every integer > 1 ?
06:40:03 <\oren\> wait why does 57 become 319 and not 139?
06:40:06 <zzo38> I not only don't know the answer for base ten but I don't know the answer for base two either.
06:41:07 <\oren\> the prime factors are arranged in order from small to large
06:41:07 <izabera> i wrote a small script to test this and all numbers below 1000 terminate, except 49 which is still going
06:43:05 <Jafet> `` n=49; while true; do echo $n; n=$(factor $n | tr -cd '[0-9]'); done
06:43:11 <HackEgo> 31135742029: 7 17 261644891
06:43:29 <myname> izabera: do you know after what number of iterations the others stop?
06:43:35 <HackEgo> 49 \ 4977 \ 497733779 \ 497733779497733779 \ 497733779497733779711131952579497733779 \ factor: `497733779497733779711131952579497733779' is too large
06:44:02 <Jafet> `` n=49; for i in `seq 100`; do echo $n; n=$(factor $n | cut -d\ -f2- | tr -cd '[0-9]'); done
06:44:05 <izabera> myname: i wrote a script that does it for me
06:44:22 <myname> izabera: what is the maximum iteration besides 49?
06:44:33 <HackEgo> 49 \ 77 \ 711 \ 3379 \ 31109 \ 132393 \ 344131 \ 1731653 \ 71143523 \ 11115771019 \ 31135742029 \ 717261644891 \ 11193431873899 \ 116134799345907 \ 3204751189066719 \ 31068250396355573 \ 62161149980213343 \ 336906794442245927 \ 734615161567701999 \ 31318836286194043641 \ factor: `31318836286194043641' is too large
06:44:56 <Jafet> @oeis 49,77,711,3379,31109
06:44:56 <lambdabot> Concatenate all the prime divisors in previous term (with repetition), start...
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06:45:24 <myname> why doesn't it print put a link
06:45:37 <oerjan> int-e: i'm with myname
06:45:45 <zzo38> How do you tell it to display the OEIS ID number
06:45:48 <oerjan> at least have a command for it
06:45:57 <izabera> looks like i missed something and 77 takes a while... ^^'
06:46:05 <oerjan> @sequence 49,77,711,3379,31109
06:46:05 <lambdabot> Concatenate all the prime divisors in previous term (with repetition), start...
06:46:21 <zzo38> Rather than only the description
06:46:48 <myname> izabera: weöö, obviously
06:46:50 <izabera> http://arin.ga/t6ZGY8/raw output for 49 so far
06:46:55 <oerjan> https://oeis.org/A056938/internal
06:46:59 <myname> izabera: 77 needs one step less than 49
06:47:57 <oerjan> izabera: page claims up to 117 steps without stopping
06:48:43 <izabera> well my laptop isn't really suited for number crunching
06:49:03 <izabera> especially if it's pointless number crunching like this <.<
06:49:18 <Jafet> Oh, it's slow because it requires factoring
06:49:25 <\oren\> at some point I should figure out how to network all my linux boxen into a cluster
06:50:21 <\oren\> Are there cluster architectures that allow use of 286's?
06:50:42 <\oren\> and x86-64's in the same cluster
06:51:02 <Jafet> I don't think you want to write any software for a cluster that has a 286.
06:51:53 <\oren\> Jafet: but I have a 286 PC just sitting there
06:53:34 <\oren\> I got it from my high school, sitting on the curb so i have no idea
06:54:05 <\oren\> it has several external parallel ports
06:55:13 <\oren\> I was using it for a while to play DOOM
06:55:47 <oerjan> http://www.worldofnumbers.com/topic1.htm
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06:58:50 * \oren\ googles parallel port and realizes it has only one parallel port. the multiple ones are serial prts, which make no sense, since they have nine pins in parallel?
06:59:36 <\oren\> well regardless it has three serial ports and one parallel
06:59:52 <oerjan> "Probabilistic arguments give exactly zero for the chance that the sequence of integers starting at a given number n contains no prime, so a home prime should exist for every positive integer. "
07:00:00 <oerjan> http://mathworld.wolfram.com/HomePrime.html
07:00:13 <oerjan> (that's not a proof, of course, just a good hint)
07:02:19 <oerjan> proving that is probably a hard problem.
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07:36:50 <newsham> http://pastebin.com/QTf1EWuc
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07:55:53 <newsham> anyone wanna put my bf impl on the wiki?
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08:05:02 <zzo38> newsham: Can you put it by yourself?
08:06:40 <zzo38> I remember my grandfather once threatened to call the President and tell him to remove the word "I don't want" from the dictionary (this happened many years ago). This is despite that we live in Canada.
08:07:06 <shachaf> What did the President of Canada say?
08:08:11 <zzo38> He did not actually do that; he only threatened to do so.
08:10:04 <gamemanj> The word "I don't want"? That would've failed even had there been a President of Canada...
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08:10:24 <gamemanj> ...even if they were willing to remove words from dictionaries.
08:11:16 <zzo38> Yes, I know, there are so many things wrong with that.
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08:11:55 <shachaf> Perhaps your grandfather uses 96-bit words.
08:12:20 <gamemanj> Sounds like a good word for if you're playing Countdown, or Scrabble.
08:14:02 <Sgeo> PSA: Ending the world is usually not a good idea.
08:14:15 <zzo38> And of course removing words from dictionaries won't generally stop people from using them anyways.
08:15:04 * Sgeo was referring to events IRL during the Cold War actually
08:15:26 <Sgeo> Although I guess saying the literal world is a bit poetic, just civilization
08:16:39 <gamemanj> Especially Scrabble, because although I'm not sure what you'd represent the spaces and apostrophe as, it's made of 3 component words, so if you managed to manuver the letter-tree so that you could insert "I", "don't" and "want" in the right positions, then add whatever you'd be using as spaces in-between for lots of points on the massive mega-word...
08:17:01 <Sgeo> Relatedly, happy Stanislav Petrov day!
08:17:42 <gamemanj> Ending the world is the kind of thing that I think someone had to say "What could possibly go wrong?" in order to get even close to performing.
08:20:29 <Sgeo> What could possibly go wrong with orders to retaliate if a new satellite system registers an attack?
08:21:05 <gamemanj> A likely not-completely-tested one at that, I presume?
08:21:49 <Sgeo> How does anyone completely test anything?
08:22:03 <gamemanj> Via actual experience, I suppose?
08:23:34 <Sgeo> There can always be edge cases, like sunlight reflecting off of clouds in a certain way
08:23:51 <gamemanj> In the end, relying on anything except a mass dropout of everything in a certain area (and even then, if they have a power failure...) for information on if you've been hit or are going to be hit is a quick way to make a complete mess.
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11:22:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44398 * CosmoConsole * (+5187) Created page with "'''Nyarlathotep''' (named after a deity in the Cthulhu Mythos) is a esoteric language created by [[User:CosmoConsole]] in 2015, and has received a large amount of inspiration ..."
11:23:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44399&oldid=44395 * CosmoConsole * (+19) /* N */ [[Nyarlathotep]]
11:23:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44400&oldid=44398 * CosmoConsole * (+9) /* External resources */ fixed link
11:30:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44401&oldid=44400 * CosmoConsole * (+4) /* External resources */ clarify python version
11:33:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CosmoConsole]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44402&oldid=40731 * CosmoConsole * (+69)
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11:46:34 <izabera> http://imgur.com/gallery/meIKvBa what's happening here?
12:06:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44403&oldid=44401 * CosmoConsole * (+0) fixed a small mistake
12:08:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44404&oldid=44403 * CosmoConsole * (+12) /* Operation */ clarified the operation of C when reaching end of memory
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14:50:30 <newsham> zzo38: i dont have wiki skills.. is there an esolang for posting to wiki?
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17:05:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, I'm having fun running a fuzzer on cfunge, lets see what it comes up with
17:06:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw, didn't you find some bug in cfunge a few months ago that I never got around to looking at properly?
17:07:03 <Vorpal> Can't find the IRC log any more
17:09:32 <fizzie> That rings a bell, but only faintly.
17:11:03 <fizzie> Grepping, the one recent thing I can find is that I was trying to use cfunge <(echo ...) to test a oneliner, and it went to a busyloop somewhere.
17:11:17 <ais523> huh, Debian stable just had an update for linux-libc-dev but not the matching linux-libc package
17:11:21 <fizzie> (echo ... > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef) worked fine.
17:11:23 <ais523> I wonder what /that's/ about
17:11:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, the fuzzer is obviously mostly finding "hangs" due to programs running into infinite loops
17:11:35 <Vorpal> fizzie, considering how to deal with this hm
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17:11:59 <ais523> oh, I see, it's the #defines that the kernel exposes to userspace
17:12:04 <ais523> so there is no matching non-dev package
17:12:09 <Vorpal> <fizzie> Grepping, the one recent thing I can find is that I was trying to use cfunge <(echo ...) to test a oneliner, and it went to a busyloop somewhere.<-- well that doesn't surprise me
17:12:26 <ais523> but I find it hard to see how a security bug in those wouldn't require a rebuild of every other package that referenced the buggy setting
17:12:27 <Vorpal> Because \r\n are annoying to deal with across fread() boundaries
17:12:46 <ais523> perhaps a setting requesting extra security was accidentally defined to 0 rather than what it should have been, but no Debian packages used it
17:12:54 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, failing instead of getting stuck would still be better.
17:13:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, I would have assumed it would do that yes
17:13:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, I wonder why it gets stuck
17:13:36 <Vorpal> Kind of hard to debug that one via gdb...
17:13:49 <fizzie> I assume it would do the same for, say, a named pipe.
17:14:31 <Vorpal> fizzie, I find it unlikely that mmap() would get stuck though instead of returning an error
17:14:53 <Vorpal> addr = mmap(NULL, len, PROT_READ, MAP_PRIVATE, fd, 0);
17:14:53 <Vorpal> if (FUNGE_UNLIKELY(addr == MAP_FAILED)) {
17:14:53 <Vorpal> diag_error_format("mmap() on file \"%s\" failed: %s", filename, strerror(errno));
17:15:52 <Vorpal> int-e, tabs for indenting is great, that way you can set the tab stop to whatever you prefer and it still looks good
17:16:01 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/tabs.png
17:16:16 <fizzie> Incidentally, I'm just filling form 306, titled "Application for pre-examination and permission to publish the dissertation".
17:16:36 <Vorpal> int-e, well that is your client, not my fault. I use hexchat and it renders it as a space
17:16:45 <Vorpal> so it looks under-indented but still readable
17:17:15 <Vorpal> (And no I don't use tabs to adjust continued lines to the preceding line, *that* would break if you change tab width)
17:18:22 <Vorpal> current policy: frequency should be within 1.60 GHz and 3.70 GHz.
17:18:22 <Vorpal> The governor "performance" may decide which speed to use
17:18:22 <Vorpal> current CPU frequency is 3.58 GHz.
17:18:41 <Vorpal> Shouldn't performance ensure it is 3.7 all the time?
17:18:52 <fizzie> I think the 3.7 GHz number counts the "turbo boost" stuff.
17:19:04 <fizzie> Like, absolute maximum for a single core, not the "normal 100%" thing.
17:19:10 <Vorpal> model name: Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-2500 CPU @ 3.30GHz
17:20:33 <fizzie> "cpufreq stats: 3.40 GHz:4.86%, 3.40 GHz:0.00%, 3.20 GHz:0.44%, ..." hrm
17:20:45 <fizzie> Wonder what that second, never-used 3.40 GHz speed is.
17:21:07 <Vorpal> fizzie, where did you find that line?
17:21:20 <fizzie> The "cpufreq-info" tool printed it out.
17:21:21 <ais523> hmm, I find this bug report strangely amusing: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522773
17:21:26 <ais523> (b_jonas in particular might like it)
17:21:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44405&oldid=44141 * 72.235.201.146 * (+125) /* Normal implementations */ add msp430 interpreter
17:21:51 <ais523> pity it's unresolved, though
17:21:51 <Vorpal> ais523, I find the debian bug tracker obtuse. Hard to see the status of a bug.
17:21:57 <ais523> Vorpal: open, in this case
17:22:01 <Vorpal> ais523, where does it say that
17:22:02 <ais523> but it's more the bug itself, rather than its resolution
17:22:06 <fizzie> Could be the statistics collection is a new thing and/or needs to be enabled somehow. Although I don't recall doing anything for it.
17:22:13 <ais523> Vorpal: it doesn't mention it being closed anywhere
17:22:19 <ais523> that I noticed, at least
17:22:47 <Vorpal> ais523, right, but even bugzilla is more readable than debian's system :P
17:22:51 <Vorpal> And bugzilla is terrible
17:23:17 <fizzie> Nice graphviz plot in the upper-right corner, though.
17:23:26 <fizzie> Lots of nodes titled "some versions".
17:24:49 <Vorpal> fizzie, you can read the graph? it is tiny for me
17:29:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure what it's trying to illustrate, but I like graphs no matter what.
17:32:54 <int-e> fizzie: I think it shows the affected package versions, color-coded; red = affected, green = fixed.
17:34:11 <int-e> hard to find good examples though... https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=522759 has no forks :/
17:34:55 <int-e> there is no linear versioning; there are forks because there are three (I think?) debian distibutions at any point in time.
17:35:25 <int-e> note, I don't know, I'm making an informed (hopefully) guess here.
17:35:34 <fizzie> In all (two) graphs I've seen so far, "some versions" could have been an implied by an edge.
17:36:20 <fizzie> Oh, there's the "don't collapse" mode.
17:36:21 <int-e> well, somebody has to tag version+bug pairs, I suppose...
17:36:44 <int-e> anyway, perhaps a good point to stop guessing :)
17:37:42 <fizzie> I tried to turn off "ignore boring" and "collapse" for the first graph, and got a broken image.
17:38:00 <fizzie> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/version.cgi?found=linux-2.6%2F2.6.29-2;found=linux-2.6%2F3.2~rc7-1~experimental.1;ignore_boring=0;package=linux-libc-dev;absolute=0;info=1;format=png;height=;width=;collapse=1 nice and wide
17:38:52 <fizzie> That's the "boring", I think.
17:39:24 <int-e> which means "unknown"?
17:42:03 <Vorpal> fizzie, so far the tool has found no crashes, that is pretty nice
17:42:40 <int-e> https://wiki.debian.org/HowtoUseBTS explains some of it
17:48:35 <zzo38> Do you know how to make proxy working with Apache? I always get error message, the stuff they mention on their IRC doesn't work either
17:50:20 <zzo38> The configuration is set up like http://sprunge.us/EEYY (the "example.org" and "stuff.example.org" and "localhost:9999" are all just for testing and will be changed later, but "127.0.0.50" is going to remain the same; also I add the ProxyPassReverse which is not listed in that old version of the file)
17:50:42 <fizzie> I used to have one Apache "reverse-proxy" configuration, but I don't think I have that configuration saved anywhere.
17:52:04 <zzo38> Do you know how to get it to work though?
17:52:32 <fizzie> Not really. I think I got it working by following the instructions, but this was some years ago.
17:53:32 <zzo38> Apache is the server I already have set up for the main HTTP server, so I try to use the same one as the proxy
17:56:08 <fizzie> In my configuration, I just had the reverse-proxy ProxyPass part, because I wasn't trying to connect to the target via another proxy.
17:56:35 <zzo38> I did get this error message in the log file: [error] proxy: ap_get_scoreboard_lb(1) failed in child 10872 for worker proxy:reverse
17:59:30 <int-e> google finds https://serverfault.com/questions/454421/apache-httpd-error-proxy-ap-get-scoreboard-lb-with-proxypass which suggests to stop and start apache (rather than reloading or restarting)...
17:59:49 <zzo38> OK I will try that
18:00:18 <int-e> (I have not looked at the configuration, but it sounds like a harmless and at the same time obscure thing to try)
18:00:30 * int-e googled the error message
18:01:34 <zzo38> That error message is gone, but I still get a 500 error and the same other logged errors as before, just not the scoreboard error
18:01:51 <zzo38> The error is: [warn] proxy: No protocol handler was valid for the URL /what. If you are using a DSO version of mod_proxy, make sure the proxy submodules are included in the configuration using LoadModule.
18:02:14 <zzo38> I did load both mod_proxy and mod_proxy_http and checked it with apachectl -M
18:04:22 <int-e> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/23931987/apache-proxy-no-protocol-handler-was-valid ... LoadModule ssl_module modules/mod_ssl.so
18:04:49 <int-e> (I guess that otherwise it fails to speak https)
18:05:19 <zzo38> I do not need it to speak https
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18:06:11 <zzo38> I want it to just send a request like "GET https://example.org/what HTTP/1.1" to localhost:9999
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18:06:44 <zzo38> (Implementing SSL on the next proxy in line instead)
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18:17:03 <fizzie> Bah, the libreoffice 5.something I have here at home does a much worse job of editing-and-saving this .doc file than the libreoffice 4.something I had at work.
18:20:34 <zzo38> Then install the other version as well (if it is possible to install both)
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18:51:08 <fizzie> This sending of pieces of paper around is totally silly.
18:51:31 <fizzie> They want two printed copies of the thesis manuscript along with the application form.
18:51:44 <puckipedia> best idea ever: an OS that boots two kernels, and every time you start a process, it randomly chooses one of the kernels to run it on
18:51:46 <nortti> \oren\: Id spel it "evribudi"
18:52:02 <\oren\> university policies are made by the oldest, most tenuruous professors
18:52:10 <ais523> also does it have to be properly bound? or is a temporary binding enough?
18:52:11 <shachaf> ais523: Part of the same conspiracy which is holding back the publication of your thesis, presumably.
18:52:46 <ais523> shachaf: at least my university now has a (very sensible) rule that if the thesis examiner and student agree, you can send the corrected version of a thesis by email rather than needing to send a printed copy
18:52:50 <ais523> and then not get it printed until it's been approved
18:52:56 <\oren\> nortti: then how would you spell 'it'?
18:53:00 <fizzie> ais523: Well, the university. And it's supposed to be perforated and in a plastic folder, but you're expressly forbidden to go through the actual get-a-printed-copy process at this stage.
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18:53:07 <shachaf> But your thesis has been approved, right?
18:53:14 <shachaf> But we still can't read a copy.
18:53:22 <ais523> I can link you to the page that says you can't read a copy, if you like
18:53:46 <\oren\> nortti: that is bad. the vowel in 'it' and the vowels at the end of 'every' are very sifferent
18:53:48 <fizzie> ais523: Come to think of it, I assume you could get it properly printed, if you want to do it at your own expense.
18:53:55 <ais523> shachaf: here: http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/6120/
18:54:20 <nortti> \oren\: I hear them as the same, while the one in "see" and end of "every" as very different :/
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18:54:42 <ais523> fizzie: I could; I've already done that for the "official" versions, and both the University and bookbinder were quite clear that I was allowed to print as many copies as I like so long as I paid for them
18:54:52 <ais523> I had to pay for the two official copies too
18:54:56 <\oren\> nortti: well the good thing sabout my system is you can spell wrods according to your own accent
18:55:33 <nortti> that's what I was meaning
18:55:59 <fizzie> ais523: Ah. At our university, the university pays for up to 500 EUR of printing costs, as long as the dissertation is published in the university's series.
18:56:38 <fizzie> And the minimum number of copies is 30.
18:56:44 <\oren\> fizzie: at UofT I got 1000 free printing pages every year as part of my tuition
18:57:13 <int-e> hmm, 1000 pages isn't so much
18:57:41 <\oren\> there were no rule as to "no printing pages entirely black[C"
18:57:42 <fizzie> 30 copies of my thesis would currently require 6420 pages.
18:57:47 <nortti> \oren\: I personally think you should have a way to mark scwas, like in the beginning of "about". in a spelling system me and heddwch developed, we used 'y' for iy
18:58:18 <ais523> I've seen phonetic spellings that used English letters entirely except they used ə for schwa
18:58:19 <fizzie> \oren\: Is this, like, properly-bound-in-a-book pages, or just, you know, printer printing?
18:58:36 <\oren\> nortti: I just use whatever the vowle would be if it weren't reduced
18:58:53 <ais523> \oren\: that's hard to tell phonetically, though
18:59:12 <nortti> \oren\: but don't you have special forms for [ər], 'R'?
18:59:16 <\oren\> to me the first vowel in 'about' is u as in 'but'
18:59:25 <Vorpal> <fizzie> ais523: Well, the university. And it's supposed to be perforated and in a plastic folder, but you're expressly forbidden to go through the actual get-a-printed-copy process at this stage.
18:59:33 <Vorpal> fizzie, this sounds stupidly complicated?
18:59:42 <\oren\> because those are reduced in my accent to sylabic R
18:59:56 <Vorpal> fizzie, when I did my bachelor thesis it was all digital.
19:00:01 <\oren\> as in 'butter' -> butR
19:00:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, no paper copy anywhere along the line
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19:00:43 <\oren\> fizzie: it was printing on up to a page size of twice a letter-page
19:00:49 <Vorpal> Maybe it is different for master theses?
19:01:03 <fizzie> Vorpal: From what I've heard informally, at least some of the Doctoral Programme Committees no longer even look at the paper copies. I think the two print copies are those that will be sent to the pre-examiners, though. Not that I'm so sure they want the paper copies either.
19:01:22 <ais523> fizzie: the originally marked (i.e. before editing) copies of my PhD thesis had to be paper, and they were bound in a special "temporary binding" way designed for the process which is pretty cheap
19:01:47 <fizzie> ais523: I think that's approximately equivalent to our "put it in a plastic folder" rule.
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19:02:10 <ais523> fizzie: well temporary bindings are quite strong, you could probably rip the pages out if you tried hard but they're unlikely to fall out by accident
19:02:11 <shachaf> ais523: If I email them to ask for an early copy do you think they would oblige?
19:02:12 <ais523> unlike plastic folders
19:02:28 <ais523> shachaf: I'm guessing no, but I doubt it would hurt
19:02:47 <Vorpal> fizzie, also I thought you were already working at google in UK?
19:02:57 <\oren\> ais523> why not use ə? <- because ə isn't on a normal keyboard
19:03:14 <ais523> are you calling my keyboard abnormal?
19:03:24 <gamemanj> ais523-lang: Impossible to use
19:03:39 <fizzie> Vorpal: I didn't do a bachelor's (I squeaked by just before they modernized our programs to involve one; before, it was straight-to-master) but I think my master's thesis involved a printout for examination. And I got 20 copies bound; there's a particular binding specifically for this kind of theses ("diplomityö").
19:03:40 <ais523> I've made tons of languages
19:03:50 <ais523> hmm, I haven't made any natural languages yet, though
19:03:53 <fizzie> Vorpal: And yes, you thought correctly.
19:03:54 <\oren\> one that uses all these crazy letter you can apparently type
19:03:56 <ais523> OK, what about this: esoteric conlang, that has zero words
19:04:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why messing around with plastic folders now then?
19:04:27 <fizzie> Vorpal: Well, I mean, as opposed to what? Leaving my PhD unfinished?
19:04:33 <ais523> \oren\: it's a completely stock UK 101 (103?) key laptop keyboard, the only change I made was to rebind one of the keys
19:05:14 <ais523> shachaf: I guess you at least get to read the abstract
19:05:26 <Vorpal> ais523, I doubt any laptop keyboard is 101 or 103 keys, there are always strange keys not found on classic keyboards
19:05:37 <ais523> I thought Fn was the main one
19:06:00 <shachaf> ais523: By the way, did you see my question about substructural types the other day?
19:06:02 <Vorpal> ais523, Mine has browser back/fwd for example, and fn. Also no right windows key
19:06:08 <shachaf> 19:03 <shachaf> it's interesting that in BCKW, CKW correspond to the three types of structure people talk about in substructural type systems
19:06:10 <ais523> the only weird key placement I can see here is that for some reason, pause/sysrq is fn-shift
19:06:11 <fizzie> I did get some ex-colleagues at the university to do the physical printing, at least, so I don't have to ship the printouts from UK to Finland.
19:06:14 <shachaf> 19:04 <shachaf> what sort of substructural type system has reordering, discarding, and duplication, but not composition?
19:06:17 <shachaf> 19:04 <shachaf> is it really boring?
19:06:18 <ais523> sysrq is on prtsc as usual
19:06:22 <ais523> shachaf: I didn't see it first time
19:06:38 <shachaf> Since you're an expert in substructural types and all.
19:06:43 <ais523> shachaf: composition corresponds to the Application rule of first-order logic, right?
19:06:52 <Vorpal> ais523, my desktop keyboard also lacks a right windows key. Even though it is a microsoft keyboard. heh
19:06:52 <\oren\> my prtsc is between alt and ctrl
19:07:03 <ais523> so there's no way to eliminate lambdas at this point, so Abstraction is pointless
19:07:07 <Vorpal> ais523, it has a fn too, between altgr and right ctrl
19:07:12 <\oren\> where the right windows key should be
19:07:21 <ais523> and there's no point in forming tuples because there's no way to destructure them
19:07:22 <fizzie> Although it seems that I might have to send the application form, because apparently it loses the magical powers of binding if it goes through a scan-and-print step.
19:07:25 <Vorpal> ais523, and "menu" is on fn-right shift
19:07:26 <fizzie> At least it's not signed in blood.
19:07:29 <ais523> thus everything is happening on the left of the turnstile
19:07:30 <Vorpal> ais523, which is super-weird
19:07:49 <shachaf> What's the Application rule?
19:07:53 <ais523> what you end up with is a definition of a set, I think
19:08:04 <fizzie> I haven't asked if they'd accept a faxed copy, because (AIUI) fax machines often preserve the magic.
19:08:21 <\oren\> My keyboard does have an excellent "lock" button (trust a business laptop to have a builtin boss key)
19:08:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, go ask them that ;P
19:08:43 <Vorpal> fizzie, then find a fax machine
19:08:46 <ais523> Application rule derives, from (G |- M : t' -> t) and (D |- N : t'), (G,D |- MN : t)
19:08:48 <\oren\> it has also a ""new web browser window key
19:09:04 <ais523> it normally ends up corresponding to categorical composition, if you use a category for your semantics (most people do)
19:09:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: We've got a fax-sending service in the intranet, but maybe that would make the spirits angry.
19:09:30 <ais523> but you have to use the closed structure to make t' point in the opposite direction
19:09:33 <shachaf> I guess you represent t' as 1 -> t' or something like that?
19:09:44 <ais523> shachaf: not in first-order logic, you don't
19:09:55 <shachaf> In the category you use for your semantics.
19:10:04 <ais523> the normal categorical method is to represent the entire judgements as G -> (t' -> t), D -> t'
19:10:31 <ais523> bleh, I wish I could link to my thesis where all this is explained
19:10:36 <shachaf> I guess I can read http://etheses.bham.ac.uk/5741/1/Smith15PhD.pdf until your thesis comes out.
19:10:38 <ais523> (except with G and D in Greek)
19:10:58 <ais523> haha, that's a thesis by someone else called Smith, I take it?
19:11:04 <ais523> also it has way too many pages
19:11:08 <fizzie> Vorpal: I haven't looked at it, I just saw some mention somewhere that you can just "go/fax" if you have to communicate to someone stuck in the past.
19:11:24 <fizzie> There was also something a bit more elaborate if you need to "regularly receive faxes".
19:11:35 <ais523> fizzie: clearly I have Feather on my mind, I thought that communicating with someone stuck in the past might change history
19:12:54 <ais523> (although in Feather, changing history can change the present, and in fact probably /should/ or else you'll get into a time loop)
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19:14:22 <fizzie> Is Feather any closer to actually existing than it has used to be?
19:14:48 <ais523> I've realised that The Underlambda Project might inadvertently remove one of the many obstacles to its existence
19:15:00 <tswett> Tens of billions of people are stuck in the past.
19:15:36 <ais523> whoever put that {{stub}} on the Esolang article about Feather is a genius, btw
19:15:37 <tswett> Sir Thomas More, for example.
19:15:57 <tswett> He is currently in the past, with no way of getting to the present.
19:16:24 <fizzie> I think it's up to a hundred billion.
19:18:59 <fizzie> Let's help him! Quick, to the fax machine!
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19:26:25 <shachaf> ais523: I sent them an email.
19:26:52 <ais523> I'm curious to know what their answer (if any) will be
19:27:05 <ais523> although given that it's Saturday, we'll have to wait a few days because I seriously doubt they reply to emails on weekends
19:28:22 <shachaf> Is there a reason you can't publish a copy directly, by the way?
19:28:53 <b_jonas> wait, you're sending messages to the past?
19:28:55 <ais523> and so far, haven't done so in case I get into trouble
19:29:37 <b_jonas> can you send one to Ben Franklin please/
19:29:48 <ais523> the paper copies don't seem to be publicly available either (although the reason for that might be that /both/ of them are currently undergoing refurbishment)
19:30:23 <ais523> b_jonas: the hard part is, that to prevent terribly bad things happening a message sent to the past has to have no visible effects until to just before you choose to send the message, at which point something happens to stop you sending the message
19:30:42 <ais523> this is quite hard to achieve, and one of the currently unsolved problems blocking Feather from existing
19:33:38 <Vorpal> ais523, at that point, it appears you can't use the "sending message to past" for anything useful?
19:34:18 <ais523> Vorpal: well, you can, say, check to see if an object has a method, if it doesn't, you can retroactively add it
19:34:35 <ais523> it won't make any visible effects to the past because as the object didn't have the method, clearly nothing called it
19:34:48 <ais523> but your check will see that the method is already there
19:37:08 * shachaf . o O ("What's expected of us" by Ted Chiang in 2005-07-07 at <http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v436/n7047/full/436150a.html>)
19:37:23 <shachaf> ski: did i do it right twh
19:43:35 <Taneb> ais523, b_jonas what were the rules to that tiny Magic variant you were talking about the other day?
19:43:53 <ais523> Taneb: there were actually two such variants
19:44:26 <ais523> the one I suggested was: you have three cards in your library (Vintage banlist, no restricted list), you don't lose for drawing from an empty library, otherwise normal Magic rules
19:44:55 <ais523> b_jonass was: you have five cards in your library, Legacy banlist, starting hand size is 0, during mulligans you can reorder your library, otherwise normal Magic rules
19:45:16 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, and default maximum hand size is still 7.
19:46:30 <ais523> right, this is starting hand size as in Vanguard
19:46:48 <ais523> b_jonas: come to think of it, we could call your format Doomsday
19:47:12 <ais523> because it's almost literally the situation you're in after resolving Doomsday (five cards of your choice in any order)
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19:48:43 <b_jonas> There's also a well-known tiny _limited_ magic variant, where in the first duels, each player starts with a single sealed booster pack that he has to shuffle to his library with ten basic lands, without looking at the cards first, then it's a single elimination tournament and the winner of the match in the first round gets to use a deck from both boosters in that match.
19:48:54 <b_jonas> I think that one is called "duel masters", but I'm not sure.
19:49:19 <shachaf> Hmm, I only ever played a one-game variant of that.
19:49:30 <ais523> b_jonas: no, duel masters is a different game Wizards makes
19:49:35 <b_jonas> ais523: that may have been what gave the original idea, I don't know
19:49:43 <ais523> there is a name for that format but I can't remember what it is
19:50:14 <int-e> shachaf: that predictor is a devious device
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19:52:23 <zzo38> I also make up a variant called the "Standard Solitaire" variant; it is a solitaire variant where the only change to the standard rules is that rule 104.2a is not applicable. Try to make up a very strange deck in order to make a more interesting kind of game with this variant; add cards that damage yourself, cards that have unusual requirements, as well as cards with effects that just let you to win the game.
19:52:32 <shachaf> We would call them "pack battles" which I guess explains why there was only one game.
19:52:50 <shachaf> Also eventually we replaced most words in the game with the word "jam".
19:53:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: comprules: not found
19:53:32 <shachaf> "jam" originally (well, in the context of Magic: The Gathering) meant "+1/+1 counter"
19:53:40 <shachaf> Later on it meant any kind of counter.
19:53:44 <b_jonas> "A player still in the game wins the game if all of that player<92>s opponents have left the game. This happens immediately and overrides all effects that would prevent that player from winning the game."
19:53:53 <shachaf> It also grew to mean "card" and "booster pack"
19:54:01 <shachaf> Giant Growth would jam up a card until end of turn.
19:54:08 <shachaf> Playing Magic: The Gathering was referred to as "jamming"
19:54:13 <ais523> do we need a comprehensive rules bot?
19:54:30 <b_jonas> ais523: there is one on the efnet/#mtgrules channel
19:54:41 <b_jonas> ais523: but we could easily teach the rules to HackEgo
19:54:41 <shachaf> I used to be in that channel.
19:54:49 <zzo38> I have recently been having problems connecting to EFnet
19:54:54 <shachaf> "Your Rules Advisor Membership is about to expire on 2015-10-12"
19:55:02 <b_jonas> ais523: there's just one problem, some rules are too long to fit in an irc line
19:55:10 -!- ais523 has quit (Quit: dinner).
19:55:25 <shachaf> ais523 always leaves very abruptly.
19:55:35 <b_jonas> but we could add a `more command to HackEgo to list continuations with a second command I think
19:56:06 <shachaf> But adding it to HackEgo in the obvious way would involve making hg commits for read-only commands.
19:56:12 <shachaf> Which would be kind of annoying.
19:56:16 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's easy to add to HackEgo too, with a short script to bin
19:56:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: doesn't it have some non-version-controlled temp directory?
19:56:37 <shachaf> That survives across reboots?
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19:57:00 <shachaf> Maybe we can use one of the bugs we know of that causes that behavior.
19:57:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's how buubot worked too by the way, it could only store versioned data
19:57:22 <b_jonas> I still stored state in versioned data though
19:57:47 <shachaf> It would be nice to have a non-versioned directory for things like this.
19:57:56 <shachaf> Though people would probably abuse it.
19:58:59 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
19:59:13 <b_jonas> I mean, how would they abuse it more than they already abuse the versioned one?
19:59:31 <shachaf> int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e int-e oerjan oerjan
19:59:45 <b_jonas> um, the non-versioned dir wouldn't be in the path, so you could see if something points there
20:00:00 <int-e> shachaf: yes yes yes yes ...?!
20:00:19 <shachaf> int-e: just fitting the rhythm hth
20:00:25 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
20:00:43 <int-e> `culprits bin/culprits
20:00:44 <HackEgo> Jafet Jafet tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
20:01:31 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
20:02:08 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
20:02:25 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
20:02:27 <shachaf> lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the lists the wisdom wisdom
20:03:01 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull Tanea
20:03:38 <HackEgo> Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
20:04:11 <HackEgo> int-e ais523 oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo Bike oerjan Taneb ais523 ais523 elliott oerjan elliott FreeFull oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
20:04:23 <fizzie> shachaf: The existing bin/paste already kind of makes commits for "read-only" commands.
20:04:37 <FireFly> Is the part about retroactively preventing it from evolving a reference to that one esolang that shouldn't be named?
20:04:45 <shachaf> fizzie: But at least when you use it you're expecting that to happen.
20:05:02 <shachaf> fizzie: When I upload some text to a paste site, I also expect to be modifying that site.
20:05:04 <HackEgo> ⌨/You are probably using one right now!
20:05:10 <Vorpal> FireFly, you mean Feather? Ais talked about it himself today
20:05:57 <b_jonas> isn't it Brainfuck that we want to retroactively cause not to be evolved?
20:06:17 <int-e> just its derivatives
20:06:18 <Vorpal> b_jonas, I don't mind brainfuck as much as all the clones
20:06:32 <Vorpal> Most of them are just boring
20:06:47 <Vorpal> That is the classical pointless one
20:07:08 <b_jonas> Vorpal: well sure, and I don't mind the _first_ stem of weed in my garden as much as all the rest it spawns, but that's where you have to start extermination
20:07:19 <Vorpal> bitfuck looks kind of interesting at first, until you realise there is a simple recipe for translating any brainfuck program into a bitfuck one
20:07:28 <int-e> of course ook's creator has redeemed himself
20:07:33 <b_jonas> what? no! Ook! is the best BF clone, one of the very few non-pointless ones
20:07:51 <int-e> Vorpal: DMM is also the creator of Piet
20:08:01 <b_jonas> int-e: and of Chef, more usefully
20:08:20 <Vorpal> b_jonas, really? It is just plain boring. And no, the Discworld reference doesn't make it any better
20:09:26 <int-e> Ok, points... It does feature periods and exclamation marks.
20:09:39 <int-e> And question marks I guess.
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20:50:45 <Vorpal> I'm currently trying to understand this program the fuzzer generated: &ITR"\ <80><FF><A8><FF>$59kbfkkk?^@kkk^MQ( o
20:50:59 <Vorpal> It sometimes crashes, sometimes hangs
20:51:16 <Vorpal> Note that <80> and so on are non-printable
20:51:32 <Vorpal> (this is how less displays it)
20:52:23 <Vorpal> I'm utterly confused how it even managed to get into the k code. It looks to me as if & and o should both just reverse... (Since o is disabled for safety reasons)
20:54:11 <Vorpal> Oh wait that is ^M, of course...
20:56:40 <Vorpal> Well that program is pure evil...
20:59:57 <ais523> Vorpal: run it through cat -v
21:00:02 <ais523> and fuzzing programs tend to be
21:00:09 <ais523> I'm amused that that fuzzer uses so many k's
21:01:04 <Vorpal> ais523, I'm ... not sure I will even try to fix that. The k code is way too complicated... Especially the handling of nested k
21:01:54 <Vorpal> ais523, I don't even understand the specifics of how it crashes, but it seems related to ? generating a specific set of < and > but never any ^ and v presumably
21:02:23 <ais523> Vorpal: what about using a determinstic RNG seed?
21:02:27 <Vorpal> I should maybe patch ? to be deterministic yeah
21:02:32 <ais523> also, that program seems to be a one-liner
21:02:39 <ais523> so ^ and v would just loop back round to the ?
21:02:42 <Vorpal> ais523, no it isn't because of the embedded ^M
21:02:48 <Vorpal> ais523, which is a CR iirc
21:02:52 <ais523> there's still nothing in the column containing the ?
21:03:06 <Vorpal> ais523, also k on a movement doesn't apply that on itself possibly
21:03:57 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
21:05:20 <Vorpal> ais523, I think it possibly applies at some nesting of k or other, but not at the top k nor ? itself
21:05:42 <Vorpal> ais523, still I apparently got an stack overflow of nested k calls
21:10:13 <ais523> Vorpal: what happens with a program that's just a single k?
21:10:36 <ais523> AFAICT the /intended/ behaviour there is a stack overflow
21:11:08 -!- Thisbe has quit (Quit: Thisbe).
21:11:24 <Vorpal> ais523, since that pops 0 iterations from the stack and runs k zero times
21:12:06 <ais523> you'd somehow need an infinite number of non-zeroes on the stack
21:12:23 <Vorpal> with nested k it is a bit easier
21:12:39 <Vorpal> Well y will put *something* on the stack certainly
21:12:51 <Vorpal> But I think it will just end up running y a lot
21:12:53 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
21:13:10 <ais523> I'm trying to work out if you get a self-sustaining loop of nested k
21:13:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/funge98: not found
21:13:35 <HackEgo> Unsupported instruction 'y' (0x79) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'k' (0x6b) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'k' (0x6b) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction '' (0xffffffff) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'y' (0x79) (maybe not Befunge-93?) \ Unsupported instruction 'k' (0x6b) (may
21:13:45 <ais523> huh, it put an EOF on the playfield
21:13:45 <Vorpal> ais523, I think it involves ? to move the IP around between runs alas
21:14:08 <ais523> Vorpal: the ? is redirecting the k into itself, I bet
21:14:20 <ais523> think about a program along the lines of k^ (in a oneliner)
21:14:35 <ais523> (I don't bet very much because randomly generated Befunge is hard to mentally parse)
21:15:07 <Vorpal> ais523, you need to get ? to move it to a k for the next loop one level up
21:15:28 <Vorpal> So you need at least 3 k to start with
21:15:40 <Vorpal> this code is super gnarly
21:15:57 <Vorpal> Hm that is an English word isn't it? The spell check disagrees
21:16:32 <ais523> Vorpal: it's pretty colloquial
21:16:56 <ais523> it wouldn't surprise me if it didn't turn up in the spellchecker's data sources
21:17:02 <ais523> which are maybe more formal
21:18:07 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway I think only cfunge implements nested k at all. Deewiant basically said "**** this" and ignored it, since the standard says nothing about it, and there is no obvious "good" way to handle it
21:18:35 <ais523> well yes, it's clearly ridiculous :-)
21:18:50 <ais523> Underload has something similar, but it's uncontroversial that if you chain it indefinitely you get a stack overflow
21:19:00 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
21:19:53 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/ul: not found
21:20:09 <ais523> maybe derlo has higher limits
21:20:21 <ais523> or maybe it just doesn't print error messages, that seems more likely
21:21:01 <ais523> ugh, this file has troll indentation
21:22:15 <ais523> `` echo (:*:^):^ | ibin/underload -a -d3
21:22:16 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `:*:^' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo (:*:^):^ | ibin/underload -a -d3 '
21:22:23 <ais523> `` echo '(:*:^):^' | ibin/underload -a -d3
21:22:24 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:22:37 <ais523> `` echo '(:*:^):^' | ibin/underload -a -d3 /dev/stdin
21:22:38 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:22:45 <ais523> `` echo '(:*:^):^' | ibin/underload -o -d3 /dev/stdin
21:22:46 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:23:08 <ais523> `` echo '(Hello, world!)S' | ibin/underload -o -d3 /dev/stdin
21:23:09 <HackEgo> Attempt to execute unknown command 45
21:23:25 <ais523> but there isn't a capital E in the program
21:25:42 <Vorpal> ais523, hm even with a fixed srandom() it appears there is still some variability in the program
21:25:54 <Vorpal> Since the fuzzer reports it
21:26:01 <Vorpal> (it is an fuzzer that instruments the program)
21:26:09 <Vorpal> (for more educated guesses)
21:26:24 <ais523> american fuzzy lop, presumably?
21:26:27 <ais523> no wonder there are so many k
21:26:53 <ais523> no, but I've read about it
21:27:00 <ais523> including the mathematical basis behind how it works
21:27:07 <Vorpal> ais523, it actually hasn't found any crashes yet, I only got that crash when investigating a hang and it crashed one of the times I ran it
21:28:13 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
21:28:54 <Vorpal> Confusing #ifdef for arc4random overriding it
21:33:29 <lambdabot> *** "gnarly" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
21:33:29 <lambdabot> adj 1: used of old persons or old trees; covered with knobs or
21:33:29 <lambdabot> knots; "gnarled and knotted hands"; "a knobbed stick"
21:33:29 <lambdabot> [syn: {gnarled}, {gnarly}, {knotted}, {knotty},
21:34:13 <Vorpal> that is what the k code is
21:34:25 <fizzie> A person and/or a tree.
21:34:43 <fizzie> I guess most code is a (parse) tree.
21:34:45 <ais523> it's normally used as a metaphor, I think
21:35:00 <Vorpal> Really? Still variable? How?
21:35:11 <Vorpal> Well, less than before at least
21:35:22 <Vorpal> I guess there could be some time thingy
21:37:06 <fizzie> ais523: The fungot ^ul time limits are in terms of Underload "operations", so you can have some pretty slow programs, e.g. if you push two strings so that the stack is almost to the limit, and then loop ~.
21:37:06 <fungot> fizzie: just a minor reference here. on the flip side of the pond fnord hence the name monk fish) than the professional records? fnord fnord 03:38, 18 may 2006 ( utc
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21:37:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp* youtube
21:37:51 <fizzie> You can tell from the timestamp.
21:41:12 <Vorpal> ais523, afl is particularly fond of loading HRTI for some odd reason
21:41:59 <Vorpal> (I gave all the fingerprints loading as input, since finding valid fingerprints might be hard)
21:42:25 <Vorpal> hm not sure how that hangs
21:42:38 <Vorpal> and N will of course reflect
21:42:45 <ais523> I was going to ask, what does N do?
21:42:47 <Vorpal> I should probably disable t
21:42:55 <Vorpal> ais523, nothing in HRTI it appears
21:44:04 <ais523> my head is hurting trying to figure out what yyyyyy does
21:44:09 <ais523> apart from push a bunch of garbage to the stack
21:49:00 <Vorpal> ais523, well that is what it does, though not all of it, since y is also pick
21:49:44 <Vorpal> Yeah I'm running non-concurrent now, since I got way too many "unique" t related hangs that weren't really unique from my point of view
21:50:52 <Vorpal> ais523, I patched in a instruction count limit, and "find next instruction" cycle limit (code doing p at super large coordinates then cfunge iterating forever to get to that point) and so on
21:51:02 <Vorpal> since those hangs are just the program doing stupid stuff
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21:51:19 <Vorpal> I guess that is the downside, finding *interesting* hangs is hard when fuzzing an interpreter
21:52:33 <Vorpal> ais523, it is not like I haven't fuzz tested before though, so some of that stuff existed, but then I did it with alarm(), but that seems less compatible with afl to some extent
21:53:08 <Vorpal> And that fuzzing was just generating random programs and feeding it into cfunge
21:54:22 <Vorpal> ais523, any idea how to tunnel SSH through a proxy that fakes SSL cert btw?
21:54:33 <Vorpal> as in, it doesn't just pass HTTPS through
21:54:41 <ais523> Vorpal: what sort of proxy? http only?
21:54:47 <Vorpal> ais523, http and https yes
21:54:52 <Vorpal> but the HTTPS one MITMs
21:55:06 <ais523> I guess you use a standard ssh-over-http, then (not sure where you get those from)
21:55:18 <ais523> the s in the https will just make things awkward because the mitmness will mean the certs won't verify
21:56:12 <Vorpal> ais523, I used to ssh over 443 because it didn't MITM in the past and thus anything on 443 just went through
21:56:29 <Vorpal> But now I need to change tactic
21:56:59 <ais523> I have an acquaintance in another channel who keeps telling people to tunnel over DNS
21:57:04 <ais523> but while possible, that's really slow
21:57:44 <Vorpal> ais523, also wouldn't it saturate the DNS caches?
21:58:06 <Vorpal> I assume you have a special authorative DNS server that listens for requests and returns other ones
21:58:10 <zzo38> I have also had idea before to tunnel stuff over DNS (just data though, not interactive sessions) in order to be able to use it from hotels and stuff where you can access DNS without needing an account or registration or whatever there
21:58:11 <Vorpal> Probably with short TTL
21:58:47 <ais523> Vorpal: I think you communicate one way using the exact URL being requested (that's a subdomain of a domain whose authoratitive DNS server you control)
21:58:51 <Vorpal> ais523, since I can't make direct DNS requests there, only through the DNS server DHCP provides. I could possibly tunnel over ping because that goes through unhindered
21:58:56 <ais523> and the other way using the IP addresses, TXT fields etc. being returned
21:59:03 <Vorpal> ais523, my idea was tunneling SSH over websockets somehow
21:59:13 <ais523> also tunnel over ping has almost certainly been done already
21:59:24 <Vorpal> ais523, seems even worse
22:00:31 <Vorpal> ais523, anyway, figuring out a way to tunnel over http seems easier, the question is if it is compatible with running nginx
22:00:47 <Vorpal> I guess I could do it with a virtual host or something
22:00:53 <ais523> websockets is probably the sanest method, to be fair
22:01:21 <zzo38> See if the server supports using CONNECT, just make if it receive CONNECT first then it can be used like SSH after that for the current session, might be one way?
22:01:38 <Vorpal> ais523, can't find any ready-made software for it though
22:02:07 <Vorpal> zzo38, pretty sure the new one doesn't, though I could test a bit more
22:02:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:02:57 <Vorpal> zzo38, I know you can only connect to port 80 and 443 with HTTP and HTTPS respectively. You can't reach, say. a server on port 8080 on the internet
22:06:01 <Vorpal> "PSD3"4(??????kkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk???????ӈ^@^H .
22:07:03 <ais523> ӈ isn't even a real command
22:07:16 <ais523> and what does 3DSP do anyway?
22:07:28 <Vorpal> ais523, vector maths iirc
22:08:23 <Vorpal> vector and matrix operations
22:09:16 <fizzie> It's a pretty strange one.
22:09:17 <Vorpal> I wonder why N from BASE hangs
22:09:30 <fizzie> Yes. Sort of very arbitrary.
22:09:52 <ais523> maybe it's to do with how I/O is connected?
22:09:57 <ais523> or maybe it's trying to print infinitely many zeroes?
22:10:29 <Vorpal> ais523, it is printing in base 1
22:10:39 <Vorpal> since ( leaves the loaded fingerprint
22:10:57 <ais523> ah, so it's printing a very large numer in unary
22:11:03 <Vorpal> cf_putchar_unlocked('0');
22:11:03 <Vorpal> cf_putchar_unlocked(' ');
22:11:15 <ais523> and that is something that's impossible to do quickly
22:11:36 <Vorpal> Well, you could perhaps use vmsplice()?
22:12:00 <Vorpal> No I don't see why that would hang
22:12:04 <ais523> huh, I learned a new syscall today
22:12:09 <Vorpal> Though the idea of k on { is annoying
22:12:11 <ais523> but it only works on pipes
22:12:25 <Vorpal> ais523, well there is splice too
22:12:53 <Vorpal> ais523, it is all going for that fabled zero-copy-IO
22:12:53 <ais523> I knew that one, though
22:13:33 <ais523> SPLICE_F_GIFT looks abusable
22:14:01 <ais523> really it should probably be specified to munmap the given pages…
22:14:22 <Vorpal> ais523, wasn't there a root exploit using vmsplice soon after it was introduced?
22:14:35 <Vorpal> Either vmsplice or splice
22:15:56 <Vorpal> ais523, here are the hangs so far http://sprunge.us/bQJU
22:16:13 <Vorpal> We can assume that ^<something> is from cat -e I think
22:16:45 <Vorpal> And some of them I don't know why they hang, possibly my iteration limit is just too close to the actual time limit
22:17:53 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: [).
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22:19:23 <ais523> that double M-2 is confusing
22:19:35 <ais523> and that ! on its own even more so
22:19:59 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:20:09 <Vorpal> ais523, yes. I think it is just that the execution count is too close to the 20 ms limit in some cases
22:20:18 <Vorpal> execution count limit*
22:25:55 <hppavilion[1]> It's interesting that whenever I start talking, everyone goes silent and/or leaves xd
22:26:16 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: could just be timezones
22:26:47 <b_jonas> it could be just that this channel isn't very noisy anyway
22:27:16 <hppavilion[1]> Should I publish what little I have for LIME so far?
22:27:27 <b_jonas> maybe we prefer concise esolangs (like burlesque) over verbose ones (like Shakespear)
22:27:35 <hppavilion[1]> Or should I wait until I have at least one working thing before I publish to GitHub?
22:33:51 <ais523> I should push what I've done on The Underlambda Project so far somewhere public
22:33:55 <ais523> I was going to hours ago but forgot
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22:35:53 <ais523> here: darcs clone http://nethack4.org/esolangs/the-underlambda-project
22:36:01 <ais523> for anyone who wants to see how it's progressing so far
22:44:09 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: I think you can publish what you have so far if you want to do so
22:45:33 <zzo38> I don't know, that may be good enough so far I suppose
22:51:26 <int-e> ais523: fwiw, linux doesn't currently implement SPLICE_F_GIFT (this is documented for the page-stealing half of SPLICE_F_MOVE of the splice system call)
22:51:43 <ais523> then it doesn't matter that its semantics are insane
22:51:58 <ais523> they can always be fixed when it's implemented
22:54:02 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: a let or letrec form, some sort of numbers with built-in arithmetic and comparison primitives, possibly mutable cells or even mutable bindings (variables) created by the lambdas, some basic IO operations, a repl
22:55:23 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: It's a lambda calculus playground. You kind of have to define your own numbers and arithmetic
22:56:24 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you still can do that if you want
22:56:37 <b_jonas> but it's useful to have them built-in
22:56:38 <hppavilion[1]> I can, but I kind of want to make users define their own things xD
22:57:28 <b_jonas> do you want people to even have to transform let and letrec to lambda expressions by hand?
22:57:33 <b_jonas> or will you at least add that
23:01:40 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: ok, let me ask differently. if I want a lambda calculus calculator, what extra would this give compared to any other interpreter that supports lambda expressions, such as a perl/ruby/scheme etc interpreter?
23:02:03 <b_jonas> (assume a not very old version of perl; old versions have a cripping bug if you try to use them as a lamdba calculus interpreter)
23:02:37 <hppavilion[1]> hppavilion[1]: Nothing at all. It's just a simple program for people to do lambda calculus in.
23:02:40 <Vorpal> went back to computer for a moment
23:02:45 <Vorpal> it had found one crash
23:02:46 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/FRGO
23:03:12 <Vorpal> ais523, doesn't crash the non-fuzz build though :/
23:03:31 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: does it do some sort of reference counting or garbage collection to reclaim memory consumed by functions and bindings?
23:04:14 <Vorpal> ais523, clearly related to this though:
23:04:16 <Vorpal> * In k: iteration: 1128597731 instruction: y (121)
23:04:16 <Vorpal> * In k: iteration: 1128597730 instruction: y (121)
23:04:16 <Vorpal> * In k: iteration: 1128597729 instruction: y (121)
23:04:20 <hppavilion[1]> b_jonas: I might make it do that later, but it's a python-based system. So mostly no, unless python has some pretty advanced built-in garbage collection
23:04:52 <b_jonas> um, python does have reference counting and even advanced garbage collection
23:05:13 <b_jonas> though you can write the interpreter in a bad way that doesn't let it work of course
23:05:50 <Vorpal> will look at that tomorrow or next weekend (rather busy with real life tomorrow)
23:05:51 <b_jonas> it's tricky, you have to make sure to hold references to only those bindings that are really needed
23:06:41 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: no, it's called true, that's a built-in expression; True is an old symbol kept from compatibility back from python 1 that you shouldn't use.
23:07:34 <ais523> Vorpal: now I'm trying to figure out how to get onto the second line
23:07:51 <ais523> presumably you need the [ to run where the y is currently (using offset k(
23:08:04 <ais523> the [ can send you past the second line
23:08:17 <ais523> but you can't run along it unless it runs on the second line somehow
23:08:20 <ais523> but perhaps the second line's a red herring
23:08:38 <Vorpal> ais523, I will need to make a debug build with fuzz testing enabled to debug this tomorrow
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23:09:34 <Vorpal> ais523, well it was still there when minimizing, and the minimizing turned it from this: http://sprunge.us/PHTZ
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23:10:44 <Vorpal> ais523, so clearly the minimising did *something*
23:12:04 <Vorpal> going to bed for real now
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23:15:06 <Vorpal> ais523, this is an ingenious case of variable behaviour though: "ITRH"4(G(
23:15:15 <Vorpal> Now going to bed for really real
23:15:28 <ais523> also that program is beautiful :-)
23:15:36 <ais523> all it's missing is another capital letter
23:16:02 <Vorpal> ais523, it uses the computed timer resolution to determine how to load the next fingerprint
23:16:15 <Vorpal> All the other variable cases also use HRTI
23:16:33 <ais523> Vorpal: I mean, so that the newly loaded fingerprint actually runs
23:17:02 <Vorpal> http://sprunge.us/OESc
23:18:33 <Vorpal> ais523, it probably evaluated to 1 or 2, which trigger different code paths in cfunge
23:20:25 <ais523> anyway I thought you were going to bed :-P
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23:52:27 <doesthiswork1> Right now I'm learning how to program from John Von Neumann and it is exhilarating
23:56:43 <oerjan> watch out for brain explosions
23:57:35 <boily> goerjanod evening.
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00:56:30 <zzo38> How difficult would it be to port xterm to a new kind of operating system if you omit some features (Unicode font support, TrueType font support, Tektronix mode, and everything having to do with widget sets)?
01:09:12 <boily> hezzo38. aren't you just porting the concept of a POSIX shell then?
01:09:50 <boily> related question: are there anything else besides Tektronix and other historical weirdities?
01:10:28 <ais523> boily: xterm is mostly a VT100 family emulator, zzo38 wasn't suggesting removing that
01:10:38 <ais523> and it doesn't actually have a shell included, it relies on other programs for that
01:12:02 <zzo38> Bitmap fonts and VT420 and Sixel graphics and so on would still be included but it doesn't necessarily use a UNIX shell or a windowing system, is what I meant
01:12:43 <ais523> zzo38: I suspect the hardest parts will be a) rendering, and b) replacing the pseudoterminal logic with something that isn't UNIX-specific
01:12:45 <boily> sorry, clusterconfusion on my part there. of course the terminal isn't the shell. the map isn't the territory...
01:13:19 <boily> why must rendering be hard?
01:13:30 <ais523> boily: xterm assumes it's rendering to X, for obvious reasons
01:13:40 <ais523> zzo38's new kind of operating system probably doesn't have an X impl
01:21:24 <boily> I wonder if porting the whole X shebang would be hard...
01:21:58 <\oren\> unicode font suppoirt is one of the easier things to have I think, beacuse on Windows for example you have to do work to not have it
01:22:33 <\oren\> most of the modern windows apis use unicode only
01:24:17 <\oren\> similar modern OS's have true typ and opentype font support for free
01:25:09 <\oren\> probably the hard parts are the stuff where xterm exposes its X window reference
01:29:11 <zzo38> Clearly you should have to omit the part where xterm exposes its X window reference
01:30:16 <zzo38> I also do not mean using an existing OS, but rather a new kind for specific uses
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01:43:37 <zzo38> In an attempt to be a simpler and faster system that uses up less power on portable computers; core software may include a Forth environment, a terminal emulator, and a SSH client (with extensions for one-time-pad and Plan9 forwarding); there can also be some optional packages to add alarm-clock, CD audio, infrared communications, photography, fax, etc (some may require specific hardware to be present)
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01:55:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MCEP]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44406 * Hppavilion1 * (+213) Created Page
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02:22:52 <zzo38> The intention is that you can access the computer even when you travel for vacation or business and/or to other country or to hotel or whatever; most computation and storage would then be done remotely by accessing your computer at home or some other server, but you can still do some operations locally too, including to program your own if needed.
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03:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44407&oldid=40109 * Zzo38 * (+28)
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03:44:00 <zzo38> Is there a keyboard shortcut for "close all other tabs" in Firefox?
03:44:36 <zzo38> Many things should have keyboard commands available but don't; I want to have as many things using keyboard command as will be possible to do so.
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03:45:14 <blurelIse> just drag the tab out of the window
03:46:29 <zzo38> OK, that does work, but I want to know how to do it with one or two keystrokes rather than using mouse
03:46:45 <blurelIse> (or use that sequence of kb commands, eg open in new window, alt-tab, alt-f4
03:46:52 <blurelIse> not sure if theres a open in new window
03:47:48 <zzo38> ALT+TAB and ALT+F4 are for Windows (although there are similar keycodes for the system I am using)
03:48:56 <zzo38> No they aren't, although I do know what they are on my system
03:51:36 <blurelIse> you could always program said sequence into a key command
03:52:52 <zzo38> I don't really know how, although I would think I could put something into userChrome.js to implement such a thing, although still I don't quite know how
03:54:08 <blurelIse> i couldnt explain not knowing all the details
03:54:24 <blurelIse> but its probably something one could possibly googlecate themselves on with some ease
03:55:30 <zzo38> I know I have figured out some other things by looking in the DOM Inspector and Mozilla documentation and source-codes, but some things I did not find even with Google or other search enginges
03:55:37 <blurelIse> 'g custom keyboard commands firefox
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03:56:14 <newsham> program semantics, query languages, distributed systems, etc... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2Aa4PivG0g
03:59:04 <zzo38> For example I have figured out how to change the way of location bar working; now it will display percent-encodings instead of displaying Unicode characters, and if I type / in the location bar it will access the root page of the current site (it now always treats the URL entered as relative, unless it is a complete absolute URL)
04:03:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mbomb007 * New user account
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04:09:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Self-modifying Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44408&oldid=38632 * Mbomb007 * (+68) /* External resources */
04:10:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MCEP]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44409&oldid=44406 * Hppavilion1 * (-14) Not sure what I did, or even if I did anything.
04:18:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mbomb007]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44410 * Mbomb007 * (+179) Me
04:21:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric processor]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44411&oldid=35169 * Hppavilion1 * (+215) /* Ideas */ new section
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04:21:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mbomb007]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44412&oldid=44410 * Mbomb007 * (+16) fix link
04:21:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric processor]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44413&oldid=44411 * Hppavilion1 * (+98) Signed
04:22:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric Processor/GPU]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44414 * Hppavilion1 * (+94) Created page
04:23:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Mbomb007]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44415&oldid=44412 * Mbomb007 * (-11) fix link
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04:24:51 <tswett> ais523: did someone say "tunnel over DNS"? What would the purpose of that be?
04:25:01 <tswett> Note that I'm not aware of any relevant context.
04:25:07 <adu> hi hppavilion[1]
04:25:15 <ais523> tswett: when you have to tunnel over /something/
04:25:21 <oerjan> <ais523> whoever put that {{stub}} on the Esolang article about Feather is a genius, btw <-- why thank you.
04:25:28 <ais523> DNS is one of the least likely internet-based services to be blocked
04:25:54 <ais523> and it felt like a pretty eso thing to do
04:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> I want to design an Esoteric Computer (CPU and possibly GPU)
04:26:58 <pikhq> It's actually *shockingly* practical -- a decent number of captive portal wifi hotspots will end up still allowing DNS traffic through.
04:27:42 <adu> hppavilion[1]: I recommend MMIX
04:27:46 <ais523> pikhq: presumably, to avoid accidentally leaving a cached IP pointing at the portal for the website that the user was trying to visit?
04:28:04 <ais523> (because an nxdomain return, or just dropping the request, would mean that the browser didn't try to load the captive portal page)
04:29:01 <pikhq> Depends on the captive portal, though.
04:29:27 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: I think Conway's Game of Life would be a great thing to make an esoteric computer out of.
04:29:54 <pikhq> I assume you're familiar with http://code.kryo.se/iodine/ ?
04:31:50 <oerjan> @ask b_jonas <b_jonas> can you send one to Ben Franklin please/ <-- let me guess, you want him to switch negative and positive charge?
04:33:12 <adu> hppavilion[1]: or you could base it on the work of Alexey Radul and Gerald Jay Sussman
04:33:50 <oerjan> HiggledyPiggledyPowerAutomatonVirtualInstructibleLayoutInsensitiveOperatingNetwork[1]
04:33:59 <tswett> You should call it Ambronse Alphose, of course.
04:36:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Higgledy Piggledy Processor]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44416 * Hppavilion1 * (+373) Created Page (WIP)
04:48:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44417 * Zzo38 * (+4821) Created page with "Here I list various programming languages and VMs and computers and so on with some kind of unusual features (and stuff I found interesting); if you disagree you might change ..."
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05:27:29 <adu> hppavilion[1]: Emoculus? really?
05:27:39 <adu> I'm not writing that page
05:29:07 <adu> it sounds like homonculus
05:29:33 <hppavilion[1]> The name can be changed; it was just the best I could come up with
05:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44418&oldid=44383 * Hppavilion1 * (+12) There, adu
05:30:28 <adu> http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Homonculus
05:30:43 <adu> hppavilion[1]: ahh that's better
05:31:35 <adu> hppavilion[1]: how so?
05:31:54 <adu> it just means "little man"
05:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44419&oldid=44418 * Hppavilion1 * (+41) Compartmentalization!
05:32:54 <adu> I think the PC term is "little person"
05:35:29 <adu> http://www.thefreedictionary.com/homunculus
05:35:35 <adu> also spelled with a u
05:35:46 <adu> wow you can learn so much from a dictionary
05:46:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44420&oldid=44417 * Zzo38 * (+4192)
05:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44421&oldid=44420 * Zzo38 * (+15)
05:47:13 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Re. nested k I just think that there's no reason to special-case it since the standard doesn't say you should, so I implement k to the letter and observe the resulting "interesting" nested k :-P
05:49:33 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var/tmp: No such file or directory
05:49:50 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access /var: No such file or directory
05:49:58 <HackEgo> bin \ games \ include \ lib \ local \ sbin \ share \ src
05:50:09 <HackEgo> aclocal \ adduser \ alsa \ application-registry \ applications \ apps \ aptitude \ apt-xapian-index \ avahi \ base-files \ base-passwd \ binfmts \ bison \ bug \ build-essential \ ca-certificates \ ca-certificates-java \ calendar \ cmake-2.8 \ common-licenses \ dbus-1 \ debconf \ debhelper \ debianutils \ dict \ doc \ doc-base \ dpkg \ emacs \ file
05:52:34 <oerjan> <shachaf> ais523.................. <-- it was inevitable, really.
05:52:58 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/culprit | grep summary:
05:52:59 <HackEgo> summary: <int-e> revert accbc9c5c7ec \ summary: <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm \ summary: <badger> le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY \ summary: <badger> le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists th
05:54:57 <ais523> my attempts to delete random entries have apparently ended up putting me in the version history of all of them
05:55:57 <ais523> doesthiswork1: I've got better at mentioning Feather without actually /thinking/ about it
05:56:02 <ais523> I have way too many other things to think about atm
05:56:18 <zzo38> Hppavilion1 put one thing in the userspace because it is not esolang and you are free to move to the main namespace if it belong there, but there is also something in my userspace I do not know if it is esolang or not (although someone on this channel told me to put it there, I think); originally it said don't move to main namespace but now it says it can be moved if it is agreed to belong in main namespace.
06:01:20 <zzo38> (The page about Hedwig Notta is not bad as it is though, although it could be improved; unfortunately I do not know what to write.)
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06:56:51 <blurelIse> zzo38: I always start with "Lorem Ipsum" when I don't know what to write on a page. It's kinda like "Once upon a time", but can go on for days if you have enough latin
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07:02:21 <zzo38> I don't know enough Latin
07:03:36 <izabera> http://www.lipsum.com/ now you do
07:04:45 <blurelIse> alternatively, theres bacon https://baconipsum.com/
07:07:15 <blurelIse> if thats too non-kosher, theres a great document you can probably use, entitled "Chicken", that basically repeats the word chicken repeatedly, but is nicely formatted and pnctuated
07:08:01 <izabera> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Chicken
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07:51:46 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 It found one real crash that happens on the normal binary so far. Related to stack stack starting ({ that is)
07:52:51 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 "PXIF"4({XJJCdM-^? and "PXIF"4({XJJCyM-^? both trigger variants of it. And those are minimized.
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08:06:43 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 Oh I see, it is trying to allocate around 2^62 funge cells, and for some reason it isn't failing at malloc, but when trying to memset it all to zero
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08:16:56 <Jafet> malloc never fails.
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08:21:25 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdlib.h> \ int main(void) { for(int i=0;; ++i) { assert (malloc(1e9)), printf("%d\n", i); } }
08:21:30 <HackEgo> <stdin>: In function ‘main’: \ <stdin>:2:2: error: missing terminating " character \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
08:22:56 <Jafet> `cc #include <assert.h> \ #include <stdlib.h> \ #include <stdio.h> \ int main(void) { for(int i=0;; ++i) { assert (malloc(1e9)), printf("%d%c", i, 10); } }
08:22:58 <HackEgo> a.out: <stdin>:4: main: Assertion `malloc(1e9)' failed. \ Aborted
08:23:08 <Jafet> For some values of never.
08:23:13 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
08:23:30 <HackEgo> stat: cannot stat `/sys/vm': No such file or directory
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09:16:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44422&oldid=44390 * Martin Büttner * (+275) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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09:59:32 <JesseH> Insane, a language that changes how it works when you use it, but gives you details of how it changes.
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11:09:12 <int-e> Wait, that question is still considered to be open?
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12:21:46 <bender|> Guys, are there compilers that compile to BF?
12:22:41 <gamemanj> There are (BFBASIC is one), but wouldn't that take out the fun of it?
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12:55:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44423&oldid=44422 * 213.162.68.156 * (+1756) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
12:56:50 <int-e> a bit tedious, perhaps, but not hard
13:05:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Int-e * New user account
13:06:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44424&oldid=44423 * Int-e * (+85) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ de-anonymize
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13:07:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nyarlathotep]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44425&oldid=44404 * CosmoConsole * (+0) /* Operation */ a minor change in operation
13:08:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Int-e]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44426 * Int-e * (+43) Created page with "I wasn't bored enough to say anything here."
13:24:00 <int-e> oerjan will probably have a fit about the missing -- and the broken thread... but I'm not sure what to do about the latter
13:24:16 <int-e> and can't be bothered to add the former right now
13:41:33 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
13:51:37 <Jafet> The calling conventions of bf-targeting compilers are even more esoteric than their target language
13:54:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sait2000 * New user account
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14:26:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Insomnia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44427&oldid=39840 * Sait2000 * (+146)
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14:39:39 <FreeFull> Could you train a markov chain on an image and then have it generate an image?
14:41:22 <boily> FreeFello. probably so!
14:41:40 <boily> I'm thinking maybe start with the middle pixel, then grow concentric circles around it?
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14:43:09 <FreeFull> Hmm, it'd be something to try out
14:45:00 <FreeFull> Seems it is something that has been done
14:45:56 <FreeFull> http://www.mat.ucsb.edu/~g.legrady/academic/courses/08s594/prj/db/
14:46:03 <FreeFull> Doesn't seem to have been too successful
14:46:19 <FreeFull> The generated images don't really look like the training data
14:47:13 <boily> enhance the algorithm!
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14:48:37 <boily> I'm thinking about exploiting anisotropy: different probabilities according to the growth vector.
14:49:04 <boily> maybe treat the colour channels separately? split tables for each of them.
14:49:12 <int-e> surely a context of one pixel can't be enough...
14:50:37 <boily> translate RGB to Lab, normalize data, create an Expectation-Maximisation model? use multiple pictures at the same time for training?
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15:00:57 * int-e should add a russian key layout... and re-learn russian...
15:06:24 <boily> what would be the most efficientest way to cover all of Unicode on a layout? modifier keys to reach different blocks?
15:07:02 <boily> Escape-Meta-Alt-Control-Shift-SouthIndic-Tamil?
15:09:26 <int-e> hmm, efficient in what sense...
15:10:17 <int-e> you can do a frequency analysis and make a huffman tree using all keys of your keyboard ;)
15:10:28 <boily> something along those lines :D
15:11:13 <boily> I remember that when I was using rxvt-unicode I could hold Ctrl-Shift and type codepoint hex codes to get any wanted character.
15:12:00 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover. that's a possibility, but not enough "humanlike" hth
15:12:33 <int-e> right, better limit yourself to 8 simultaneously pressed keys at most ;)
15:22:05 -!- int-e has set topic: The Unicode Pianist | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
15:41:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44428&oldid=44424 * Int-e * (+321) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ oops.
15:44:34 <int-e> hmm. "Notice will be provided in clear and conspicuous language" ... is "conspicuous" a legal term?
15:50:49 <\oren\> Try simply having compose + base-64-encoded-code-poin
15:52:48 <\oren\> or maybe have a choose-language key, which is followed by a language code
15:53:23 <\oren\> choose,D,E gives you a german keyboeard
15:54:00 <\oren\> choose,S,E gives you a swedish one
15:54:22 <\oren\> choose,J,P gives you a japanese IME
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16:01:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44429&oldid=44428 * Int-e * (+229) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ oops again
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16:06:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44430&oldid=44429 * Int-e * (+2) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ ...details, details
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16:16:58 <shachaf> int-e: I have a "phonetic Russian" keyboard layout set up.
16:17:28 <shachaf> But I don't speak Russian.
16:19:23 <quintopia> i had that keyboard layout set up on my laptop
16:19:33 <int-e> \oren\: oh I see what happened, I had somehow conflated "conspicuous" and "suspicious"
16:19:39 <quintopia> but i havent used my laptop seriously in months
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16:36:22 <\oren\> quintopia: are you using it now?
16:39:44 <\oren\> in other news I still havent' found any need to install linux on my new laptop. Instead, I'm currently sshing into my linux laptop and using the brand new one as a thin client.
16:41:33 <mauris> int-e: i hear you know the secrets to 84-byte haskell fizzbuzz (but not henkma's 82)
16:41:39 <\oren\> so yeah. still on 32-bit up in this bitch
16:42:37 <\oren\> 84 bytes? isn't that rather a lot
16:42:43 <mauris> people are collecting the very shortest fizzbuzzes on codegolf.SE now that the competition has sort of died out! so i shared my 85B and maybe we should compare solutions? http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/a/58800/3852
16:42:58 <mauris> main=mapM(putStrLn.f)[1..100];f n|d<-drop.(*4).mod n=max(show n)$d 3"Fizz"++d 5"Buzz"
16:44:11 <\oren\> oh, haskell, not some esolang
16:45:31 <gamemanj> at those code densities any language is an esolang :)
16:46:28 <myname> exceptt perl, where this is considered normal
16:47:22 <\oren\> it's interesting that the lengths of the haskell and C versions are so close
16:48:00 <\oren\> despite the two languages being basically at odds in so many ways
16:49:25 <\oren\> then there is a cluster around 54 or Perl Python PHP and Powershell
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16:52:56 <\oren\> Myabe these clusters reflect some degree of similarity of the "density" of the syntax, as an emergent quality of the language (the maximum "meaning per character" expressible in the syntax)
16:53:49 <int-e> mauris: I have no idea where you heard that but you heard wrong
16:54:26 <mauris> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2014-09-14.txt ?
16:55:54 <int-e> If I had 84 that day I didn't record the solution. But I probably just miscounted and didn't bother to report the fact.
16:57:13 <int-e> (in my file there's a 85 character solution)
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17:20:59 <Vorpal> tix=0 tid=0 x=11 y=0: / (47)
17:20:59 <Vorpal> Stack has 2 elements, top 15 (or less) elements:
17:20:59 <Vorpal> -1 -9223372036854775808
17:21:04 <Vorpal> Floating point exception
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17:23:40 <Vorpal> (gdb) print -9223372036854775808LL / -1LL
17:23:52 <Vorpal> And the program crashes with SIGFPE on that
17:25:30 <int-e> > (-2^63) `div` (-1) :: Int
17:25:52 <myname> Vorpal: look at the manual for sigfpe
17:26:08 <myname> it's stated there to exactly do that
17:26:38 <Vorpal> myname, I don't have a man page for sigfpe?
17:27:10 <Vorpal> so which manual do you mean? The C specification?
17:30:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: I did that on cfunge just the other day.
17:30:07 <fizzie> Vorpal: Didn't think it counted as a bug when you asked.
17:30:23 <fizzie> That's exactly the one thing I was trying to use <(echo ...) for.
17:30:24 <Vorpal> fizzie, oh? Well the standard only mentions division by zero
17:30:39 <Vorpal> But I would like to handle whatever this is
17:31:36 <Vorpal> fizzie, so why is -2⁶³ / -1 an SIGFPE?
17:31:36 <fizzie> You get SIGFPE on the DE exception, and x86 throws the DE exception if the result is out of range.
17:31:54 <fizzie> One of the x86 hardware exceptions.
17:32:07 <fizzie> And it's a SIGFPE because INT_MIN / -1 would have the value (INT_MAX+1), which doesn't fit.
17:32:10 <Vorpal> fizzie, well the standard says nothing about this issue
17:32:16 <Vorpal> And presumably it is x86 specific
17:32:35 <Vorpal> What does the IEEE say?
17:32:41 <fizzie> Nothing, because it's an integer operation.
17:32:46 <Jafet> It's signed overflow, which is undefined
17:33:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what does the funge standard say?
17:33:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure what you get on other architectures, but the problem itself is common to everything that's twos'-complement.
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17:33:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, so what do you think should happen?
17:34:10 <fizzie> I think that's really a matter of opinion. You could argue that it's quite similar to division-by-zero, and could yield zero.
17:34:12 <Deewiant> The standard doesn't mention the issue, CCBI doesn't special-case it
17:34:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, also how did you test this btw? I'd like to know if you managed to beat the fuzzer to the program length
17:34:26 <fizzie> The other "typical" answer is to return INT_MIN again.
17:34:42 <fizzie> $ echo '2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*:.01-/' > tmp.bef; cfunge tmp.bef
17:34:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well I'd like my program to not crash :P
17:34:54 <Jafet> > 2^32 * 2^32 :: Int
17:34:54 <Vorpal> fizzie, or do: "PXIF"4(R:S/3"0
17:34:57 <fizzie> The one :. is extra, too, left for debugging.
17:35:34 <fizzie> 2:*:*:*:*:*:2/*01-/ is still a bit longer, but at least it's fingerprint-free.
17:35:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I haven't bothered figuring out how that triggers it, have fun if you want to
17:35:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I think it multiplies the fingerprint itself or something
17:36:19 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Oh wow, I didn't realize that actually causes a SIGFPE on x86.
17:36:23 <fizzie> I don't even know what the FIXP representation is.
17:36:36 <Deewiant> I always thought it just yields INT_MIN again.
17:36:40 <fizzie> It's a classic denial-of-service technique.
17:36:56 <Vorpal> Deewiant, right, so now you will patch ccbi?
17:37:15 <Deewiant> If somebody actually cares, then yes
17:37:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, is it just LONG_MIN / -1 that can cause this?
17:37:28 <Vorpal> fizzie, or some other combination too?
17:37:34 <Vorpal> I'd rather not catch SIGFPE
17:37:35 <Deewiant> Vorpal: INT_MIN works just fine too.
17:37:45 <Vorpal> Deewiant, no, I have 64-bit cells :P
17:37:51 <b_jonas> I for one would prefer if INT_MIN/-1 silently gave INT_MIN, but the division by zero trap in that case is hard-coded in the signed division operation of x86, so you can't just change this cheaply without wrapping every division operation.
17:38:22 <fizzie> Vorpal: It's the only combination when your input and output operands are the same size.
17:38:23 <Deewiant> Vorpal: (LONG_MIN isn't necessarily 64-bit) in that case, yes, only that case (and division by zero which you know and handle).
17:38:30 <Vorpal> b_jonas, well you could catch SIGFPE and mess with the registers, but urgh
17:38:32 <b_jonas> You can certainly wrap the division, but it would be crazy to expect for the C language to do that for you.
17:38:43 <b_jonas> Vorpal: yes, you can certainly do that.
17:39:12 <fizzie> The "SIGFPE if result is too big" is also the bane of everyone who assumes the x86 div/idiv instructions are 64x64 to 64 when it's actually 128x64 to 64.
17:39:12 <b_jonas> but you can't avoid the trap unless you make sure in advance to give the right arguments
17:39:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I think I have a FUNGE_CELL_MIN define or something *somewhere*
17:40:00 <Vorpal> b_jonas, that is the more portable solution I will go for probably
17:40:05 <Vorpal> I don't want to mess with SIGFPE
17:40:17 <fizzie> (And analogously for 64x32-to-32, 32x16-to-16 and 16x8-to-8.)
17:40:27 <fizzie> There's been a number of people on ##asm who don't clear (or sign-extend, as appropriate) the high half.
17:41:32 <myname> also, some cpu do crazy stuff if you divide by 2^x with the lower 64 bit being 0
17:41:34 <Sgeo> "ARIN has reached depletion of the general IPv4 free pool today, 24 September 2015."
17:41:39 <Deewiant> fizzie: FIXP provides 4 decimal digits of precision.
17:41:40 <b_jonas> Vorpal: iirc it's a trap, not a fault, so you don't even have to mess with the registers. just return from the interrupt
17:41:59 <Vorpal> fizzie, I guess I will have to patch CPLI and such too
17:42:00 <b_jonas> (so is a division in first place, but there's a big difference)
17:42:07 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, (ai * bi + ar * br) / denom);
17:42:07 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, (ai * br - ar * bi) / denom);
17:42:08 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, 0);
17:42:09 <Vorpal> stack_push(ip->stack, 0);
17:42:09 <fizzie> Deewiant: Oh, right, I somehow skipped that line.
17:42:12 <Vorpal> Okay that will be annoying
17:43:21 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I'm using afl to fuzz cfunge in case you missed that yesterday
17:43:23 <fizzie> Just stick a static inline cell funge_div(cell nom, cell denom); somewhere and use that every time you feel like writing a /.
17:44:04 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it found this bug, k-issues and something really really strange with broken stacks in { for massive negative arguments. Other than that it seems very good
17:44:15 <Vorpal> fizzie, probably a good idea yes
17:45:07 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Oh, good, let me know if you find anything else interesting. It's on my todo list for my written-in-C interpreter (which is turning out to be a bit of a fi:ikuisuusprojekti).
17:45:35 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well it should generate a corpus that will exercise lots of code paths
17:45:41 <Deewiant> Couldn't think of a good translation on short notice.
17:45:42 <Vorpal> Deewiant, might be fun running ccbi on that
17:45:51 <b_jonas> a moment, I'm still looking it up, I'm not sure in this
17:46:05 <Vorpal> Deewiant, no, but there is a qemu mode, (somewhat slower)
17:46:31 <Vorpal> Deewiant, and if you can target LLVM, it might be possible, not sure. I haven't looked into the llvm stuff, but it might need clang?
17:46:48 <Deewiant> If it needs clang it can't use D, that's for sure.
17:46:55 <Deewiant> If it can work on raw LLVM it'd work though.
17:47:23 <Deewiant> But I'd rather not set up the whole D development thing again... I'm hoping I won't have to touch CCBI any more. :-P
17:47:23 <b_jonas> thanks, manual, using the symbol "#DE" for two different things. typical of your sloppy ambiguous pseudocode notation, intel.
17:48:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, don't like D?
17:48:33 <fizzie> The "D" is short for "dead language".
17:49:11 <Deewiant> Last update end of 2012. I could port to D 2.0 but I don't like it and the effort is probably comparable to rewriting in C anyway.
17:49:52 <Deewiant> Unfortunately the rewrite turned into rewrite-and-improve so it's kind of stuck as I don't have as much time to work on it as I used to.
17:50:04 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about -1 / -2^63?
17:50:16 <fizzie> Vorpal: That's just 0.
17:50:20 <Vorpal> There is no weird underflow or something I assume
17:50:52 <b_jonas> the AMD manual says it's a fault
17:50:58 <b_jonas> so you have to do something special, you can't just ignore it
17:51:06 <Vorpal> What is the word for the part that isn't the denominator in English?
17:51:11 <b_jonas> that's stupid, but it's for compatibility
17:51:27 <b_jonas> yeah, like Númenor or Numitor
17:51:40 <b_jonas> where is this in the intel manual though?
17:51:47 <shachaf> I think I've heard it called "fraction line" or something like that.
17:53:22 <fizzie> b_jonas: In my copy, it's in volume 3, chapter 6.15 "Exception and Interrupt Reference", subpart "Interrupt 0 - Divide Error Exception (#DE)".
17:53:28 <fizzie> "Exception Class: Fault."
17:53:56 <fizzie> "Indicates the divisor operand for a DIV or IDIV instruction is 0 or that the result cannot be represented in the number of bits specified for the destination operand."
17:54:22 <Vorpal> fizzie, when can that fail?
17:54:30 <int-e> Vorpal: that's the same instruction
17:55:07 <Vorpal> int-e, and what should it return on -2^63 / -1
17:55:29 <fizzie> Rather, -2^63 % -1, and that one should clearly be 0.
17:55:32 <Jafet> > (-2^63) `mod` (-1)
17:55:40 <Jafet> > (-2^63) `rem` (-1)
17:55:43 <int-e> Vorpal: we have already established what it does return
17:56:30 <b_jonas> fizzie: indeed, it's there
17:56:30 <Vorpal> fizzie, what should it return in MODU fingerprint though?
17:56:33 <int-e> (nothing, it causes an exception)
17:56:48 <int-e> Haskell actually implements special cases for INT_MIN/-1
17:57:03 <int-e> which is why the mod and rem don't fail
17:57:11 <Vorpal> fizzie, because that is all the cases of signed result, unsigned result and reminder
17:57:31 <int-e> > (-2^63) `mod` (-1) :: Int
17:57:58 <Jafet> > (2^63 :: Int) == (-2^63)
17:58:00 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure it should be 0 for all the three variants.
17:58:39 <fizzie> > (-2^63) `div` (-1) :: Int
17:59:45 <fizzie> b_jonas: There's only three in the MODU fingerprint.
18:00:07 <fizzie> There's seven in one R7RS draft, IIRC, but they culled them down a bit.
18:00:07 <Vorpal> which is the missing fourth variant?
18:00:58 <fizzie> It defines the functions {floor,ceiling,centered,truncate,round,euclidan}-{quotient,remainder}.
18:01:17 <fizzie> They're all defined in terms of what the quotient is.
18:01:29 <fizzie> Ceiling, floor, truncate and round are probably all self-evident.
18:02:00 <Vorpal> The other ones are not
18:02:11 <fizzie> Euclidean is "floor if denominator is > 0, ceiling if denominator is < 0".
18:02:22 <Vorpal> Makes little sense, but go on
18:02:48 <fizzie> And centered is "choose quotient such that -|denom/2| <= remainder < |denom/2|".
18:02:58 <Vorpal> I assume round is "round to nearest, 0.5 away from 0"?
18:03:16 <fizzie> Centered makes the remainder as small is possible.
18:03:27 <fizzie> In absolute value terms.
18:03:40 <int-e> what's the difference between centered and round? or between euclidean and truncate?
18:04:18 <fizzie> Vorpal: Round is "round to even on 0.5".
18:04:34 <fizzie> Apparently "for consistency with the default rounding mode" for IEEE floats.
18:05:20 <Vorpal> fizzie, what about this code for "variable behaviour" warning btw? "ITRH"4(G(
18:05:28 <Vorpal> I think it is brilliant
18:05:30 <fizzie> int-e: Truncate would give you 1 out of (-3)/(-2); euclidean gives 2.
18:05:47 <fizzie> Because it's ceil((-3)/(-2)) since -2 < 0.
18:06:01 <Jafet> "Euclidean" presumably keeps the remainder 0 <= r < |b|.
18:06:35 <fizzie> I can't really keep any of them straight in my head without working it out.
18:07:05 <Vorpal> fizzie, this is quite a bad crash: http://sprunge.us/FgJR
18:07:10 <fizzie> Also I'm not sure how widely useful these are. They were all in the core language, too, which was supposed to be small and neat, after the R6RS debacle.
18:07:19 <Vorpal> at least valgrind picks up on it earlier
18:07:56 <fizzie> They only kept {floor,truncate}-{quotient,remainder} in the final R7RS.
18:08:13 <Vorpal> Deewiant, that "IRTH"4(G( is a beautiful way to find non-determinism
18:08:51 <int-e> -a / -b gives you the ceiling version
18:09:09 <int-e> (when used with the floor version)
18:09:27 <Vorpal> Deewiant, even when srandom has been hard coded in for the point of fuzzing and so on
18:10:02 <Vorpal> #1 0x000000000040fd6e in stack_zero_fill (stack=0x67a45a0, count=9223372036854775800) at /home/arvid/src/own/cfunge/trunk/src/stack.c:486
18:10:02 <Vorpal> 486memset(&stack->entries[stack->top], 0, count * sizeof(funge_cell));
18:10:02 <Vorpal> $1 = 9223372036854775800
18:10:07 <Deewiant> Vorpal: You mean afl found that, or what? It's certainly clever-looking, yes
18:10:08 <Vorpal> Yep, I can see why this crashes
18:10:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, afl found it yes
18:10:24 <Vorpal> Deewiant, presumably it is either 1 or 2 on my system
18:10:48 <Vorpal> Deewiant, it reports inputs that give variable behaviour as well
18:11:05 <Deewiant> (Never actually used it myself)
18:11:09 <int-e> > (-16) `div` 2 :: Word
18:12:01 <Vorpal> Deewiant, since I patched in srandom(4) for fuzz testing and so on, it only managed to find 22 cases of variable behaviour so far (wrt which branch is taken)
18:12:46 <Vorpal> Also limits to 1000 executed instructions, and 500 spaces before giving up to find the next instruction, since those are boring hangs
18:13:07 <Vorpal> Still have 38k hangs (500+ unique) it reports, so eh
18:13:17 <Vorpal> It ran since yesterday evening
18:14:50 <Vorpal> Most variable behaviour involves HRTI
18:15:14 <Vorpal> Though it managed one with JSTR, that is interesting
18:15:28 <fizzie> Bah. Tried to set up the Chromium tree at home, but it just fetches the 21 gigs of stuff and barfs http://sprunge.us/ZDBC
18:16:20 <Vorpal> here are some interesting cases of non-determinism when random/srandom is neutred: http://sprunge.us/aSaQ
18:16:29 <Vorpal> A lot involve HRTI and are probably boring
18:16:42 <Vorpal> There is one involving TOYS it seems
18:17:07 <Vorpal> "PSD2SYOT"4( C"%4"SEO"BEMIT"4(EMIH"HHG""(VX^VL4(VF^VL
18:17:11 <Vorpal> That is quite interesting
18:17:25 <Deewiant> With the amount of ( there I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up loading HRTI :-P
18:17:43 <Vorpal> Deewiant, I think it loads TIME
18:17:56 <Vorpal> which is just as bad I guess
18:18:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, this one I don't get though: "RTSJ"4(????\E\\\\(?????M-^??(M-SM-^J^@4???^_?????(M-SM-^J^@4???^_?????ek_\\\y\\\P
18:18:55 <Vorpal> Oh I guess you are right
18:19:41 <Vorpal> Also I have some crashes, that are not crashes unless I run it with the fuzz build. All of them involve k. So that is fun
18:20:23 <Vorpal> I'm more concerned with the { crash. That might be exploitable if you can trick the program into using a massive negative value
18:20:35 <Vorpal> Since it crashes at different addresses each time
18:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44431&oldid=44397 * Vihan * (+6) /* Escaping Quotes */
18:24:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44432&oldid=44431 * Vihan * (-10) /* Functions */
18:24:23 <Vorpal> It seems it successfully allocates 1 TB virtual address space first?
18:24:46 <Vorpal> Exactly 1 TiB I think?
18:25:38 <Vorpal> Deewiant, Linux overcommitting makes it hard to implement stack stack memory handling properly :/
18:26:17 <Vorpal> Though that is not the issue at hand
18:26:23 <Deewiant> Vorpal: The user's OS not reporting memory allocation failures is not your problem :-P
18:27:02 <Vorpal> Deewiant, becuase it allocates 1*8 TiB, which apparently overflows signed 64-bit? Really?
18:27:10 <Vorpal> (gdb) print 9223372036854775802LL * 8LL
18:28:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44433&oldid=44432 * Vihan * (+59) /* Functions */
18:28:43 <Deewiant> 9223372036854775802 is not a terabyte
18:29:31 <olsner> what is it, 8 ebibyte?
18:29:34 <Deewiant> That's 8 EiB, and yes 64 EiB doesn't fit in signed 64-bit
18:30:34 <Deewiant> Actually it's 8 EiB minus six bytes
18:31:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, actually I think the calculation is unsigned, when it does the allocation.
18:31:49 <Vorpal> I'm trying to understand why it doesn't fail at that point
18:31:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44434&oldid=44433 * Vihan * (+77)
18:31:56 <Vorpal> instead of when trying to memset the thing
18:32:04 <pikhq> If it makes you feel any better, that's just Linux's default behavior, not the only one.
18:32:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HALT]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44435&oldid=44434 * Vihan * (+3) /* Functions */
18:32:28 <pikhq> You can tell Linux to actually keep track of memory like LITERALLY EVERY OTHER OS ON THE FACE OF THE PLANET. :)
18:32:28 <Vorpal> but 8 ebibyte is stupid
18:33:27 <Vorpal> pikhq, that meant I couldn't start SCBL at some point, because it allocated a huge chunk of memory ahead of time
18:33:44 <int-e> I hope that's SBCL
18:34:00 <Vorpal> err yeah probably, the LISP thingy
18:34:21 <Vorpal> int-e, is SCBL something else that exists?
18:34:36 <int-e> probably. nothing I know about though
18:34:49 <Vorpal> The "hope" thingy made me curious
18:34:50 <int-e> "Southern Collegiate Baseball League"
18:35:07 <int-e> Vorpal: ah I was hoping not to be ignorant of something well-known ;)
18:35:14 <Deewiant> Vorpal: Maybe you can set a signal handler and thus notice the memset failure, not sure
18:35:38 <int-e> also "spamcop blocking list"...
18:35:48 <int-e> that's something I might have encountered
18:36:08 <pikhq> Uh, pretty sure the OOM killer does SIGKILL. :)
18:36:29 <Vorpal> Deewiant, anyway it isn't the OOM killer that messes me up
18:36:37 <Vorpal> I think there must be a different bug in here
18:38:18 <Vorpal> Deewiant, hm does the allocation almost overflow unsigned arithmetic right?
18:38:46 <Vorpal> Because I round up to nearest 4096 byte boundary when allocating
18:38:53 <Vorpal> So I probably overflow I would guess
18:39:23 <Vorpal> actually that is 4096 funge cells
18:39:37 <Vorpal> So I actually round up to 8*4096 bytes
18:40:25 <Deewiant> Vorpal: One exbibyte is 2^60 bytes so you can have almost 16 of those
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18:42:55 <zzo38> I think that maybe how it should be done by Linux OOM killer is instead, first to do ahead of time to send SIGMEM signal (default: do nothing) before it run out of memory, and then SIGOOM (default: terminate) and then SIGKILL
18:44:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44436&oldid=44419 * Hppavilion1 * (+2) Narrowed down mother's death date given recent evidence
18:47:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44437&oldid=44436 * Hppavilion1 * (+13) Linked
18:47:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44438&oldid=44437 * Hppavilion1 * (+17) Corrected link
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18:51:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44439 * Hppavilion1 * (+370) Created page. Needs to be filled. Anyone feel like making up some medical bullshit?
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18:53:06 <Deewiant> Maybe setting RLIMIT_AS conservatively and then comparing that to the available memory when malloc fails would get you somewhere
18:53:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44440&oldid=44439 * Hppavilion1 * (+213) Prevention
18:54:15 <Vorpal> Deewiant, This bug might have to wait for later
18:54:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44441&oldid=44440 * Hppavilion1 * (+40) Fixed a link
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18:55:21 <Deewiant> Nothing's a complete solution though, you can always get SIGKILLed even if you're not mallocing at the time
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18:56:59 <Vorpal> Deewiant, well obviously, but the bug is that the program ends up with a corrupt crash and crashes with SIGSEGV
18:57:08 <Vorpal> So it is not the OOM killer doing it
18:57:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44442&oldid=44438 * Hppavilion1 * (+25) Prepared for a new template
18:58:37 <Deewiant> Just musing about the memory allocation problem
18:59:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Amathnea]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44443&oldid=44441 * 82.40.165.129 * (+120) /* Signs and Symptoms */ (You asked...)
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19:02:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Fictional History of Esolangs]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44444 * Hppavilion1 * (+484) Created Template (I'm so sorry)
19:03:16 <Vorpal> $ ../../../build/cfunge -S second_63
19:03:16 <Vorpal> *** glibc detected *** ../../../build/cfunge: munmap_chunk(): invalid pointer: 0x0000000001306ef0 ***
19:03:19 <Vorpal> This is interesting too
19:03:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Hedwig Notta]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44445&oldid=44442 * Hppavilion1 * (+10) Fixed(?) Template
19:03:50 <tswett> Now, my understanding of Windows is that there are two families: the old DOS-based family, and the new NT family. Is that right?
19:03:52 <Vorpal> Oh, we have a massive stack again
19:04:02 <gamemanj> Hppavilion[1]: It seems to be a small edit to add symptoms?
19:04:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Fictional History of Esolangs]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44446&oldid=44444 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Fixed Navbox by closing it (maybe)
19:05:44 <\oren\> I've added 先手方文弟本时明星映春昼時晩普晶与丘丙両丼井乞乱乳亀予争休交仁付仙代令以会位住体何作使例便共兵具典兼
19:06:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Template:Navbox]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44447 * Hppavilion1 * (+25) Created Navbox (maybe) (can't believe we didn't already have this...)
19:06:17 <gamemanj> Hppavilion[1]: Thanks for the compliment :) (try whois-ing me)
19:07:07 <fizzie> tswett: I'm sure it's a bit subjective. You *could* divide them in three groups (1.0, 2.0, 3.0, 3.1x | 95, 98, ME | NT 3.1, ...) depending on how closely you look at the internals. But it's perhaps fair to say the 9x/ME versions are still "DOS-based" up to some degree.
19:07:22 <int-e> does Windows CE count?
19:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Do we have the necessary components for a Navbox?
19:07:29 <tswett> I thought it was a clear and objective distinction.
19:07:40 <tswett> Some versions use the DOS kernel or whatever, some use the NT kernel.
19:07:56 <fizzie> Well, that boundary is pretty uncontroversial.
19:08:07 <int-e> fizzie: win 95/98/ME still shipped with a DOS that could be booted by itself
19:08:47 <pikhq> fizzie: 9x/ME were as DOS-based as 3.x were.
19:08:50 <fizzie> int-e: Yes, but there's still quite a big difference between the 9x architecture and 3.1x. I mean, you don't group Linux distributions to different categories based on which bootloader they use.
19:08:57 <int-e> (but afai the windows part didn't rely on the DOS part at all, except for the boot process)
19:09:17 <pikhq> 3.x didn't rely on DOS much itself either, at least when running on 386.
19:10:05 <pikhq> 3.x booted into a protected mode kernel with, optionally, device drivers running there.
19:10:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44448&oldid=44083 * Timwi * (+1) /* Stack Manipulation */
19:11:04 <pikhq> (namely, 3.x supported the "VxD" device driver model, which continued to be used on 9x)
19:11:13 <int-e> fizzie: I guess one should discuss the win16 (cooperative multi-tasking)/win32 (preemptive) split, and when win16 support was dropped
19:11:30 <pikhq> Win16 support has not been dropped.
19:11:40 <pikhq> Windows 8 on 32-bit x86 still runs Win16.
19:12:04 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Do you know why the #invoke template wouldn't be working on the wiki?
19:12:28 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: I'm not really any sort of MediaWiki expert.
19:12:35 <pikhq> ... Also, IIRC Win16 programs on 95 still ran basically fully cooperative multi-tasking, such that one could in fact halt the entire system.
19:13:27 <pikhq> (on NT, they run in a virtual DOS machine, such that a misbehaving Win16 program can only impact the other Win16 programs)
19:15:06 <pikhq> Also, 9x's interaction with DOS certainly was not just as a bootloader...
19:15:19 <hppavilion[1]> OK, according to what I can find, #invoke (which I need for the Navbox template) is included in ParserFunctions, but for some reason it isn't working.
19:15:20 <pikhq> It hooked DOS heavily such that any DOS drivers would still "just work". :)
19:15:26 <b_jonas> yep. and Microsoft would support Win16 and DOS programs out of box forever, if it weren't for AMD to tell them to suck it up and make their cpus refuse to do v86 mode in 64 bit OS, and Intel followed that. So now you need an external emulator software which isn't shipped with Windows.
19:15:49 <b_jonas> But there's no point running windows for that, I just run those old DOS games emulated on Linux.
19:16:06 <pikhq> b_jonas: Frankly there's no *good* reason for them to not still support Win16, other than them deciding it wasn't worth the effort.
19:16:22 <pikhq> Win16 programs run just fine in 16-bit protected mode inside long mode.
19:16:50 <b_jonas> pikhq: yeah, but the programs that actually matter to customers aren't the Win16 programs, but the actual real mode DOS programs.
19:17:31 <b_jonas> Eg. my father is working with old hardware which has to be managed through some very old legacy DOS program.
19:17:32 <pikhq> And there's no good reason they couldn't have resurrected the VDM implementation used on earlier non-x86 NT.
19:17:49 <b_jonas> People can still just run an emulator software.
19:17:50 <pikhq> (non-x86 NT shipped with a VDM which actually did emulate the 8086.)
19:18:03 <pikhq> But presumably it wasn't worth it to MS.
19:18:21 <pikhq> I believe the only reason the VDM still works on x86 Windows is because it hasn't broken yet.
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19:19:02 <pikhq> DOSemu certainly eliminates a lot of the interest.
19:19:12 <hppavilion[2]> I want to make a MediaWiki-like Social Network Software.
19:19:45 <b_jonas> pikhq: Those crazy old DOS programs will still be there a hundred years in the future when digital cameras and mobile phones finally start to realize that they should stop using FAT on the inserted SD cards because they can't store mtimes after 2097 or whatever date it is
19:20:19 <hppavilion[2]> Does anyone feel like participating in that's development?
19:20:22 <pikhq> I don't foresee FAT surviving much longer than the patent expiration on exFAT.
19:21:30 <b_jonas> pikhq: um, what's this exFAT you're talking about?
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19:21:47 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's the end of 2107 -- 7 bits from 1980.
19:21:55 <tswett> hppavilion[2]: in what way would it be MediaWiki-like?
19:22:07 <pikhq> exFAT is Microsoft's proposed FAT replacement, which is currently used on SD cards of larger than 32 GiB.
19:22:13 <b_jonas> (in localtime, damn it. so useful.)
19:22:18 <hppavilion[2]> tswett: Open source, extensible, you could just download it and run it yourself, etc.
19:22:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: Don't forget the 2-second resolution.
19:22:38 <tswett> Kind of sounds like Diaspora.
19:23:00 <hppavilion[2]> tswett: Was that directed at me or at the other conversation?
19:23:10 <b_jonas> pikhq: ah, I haven't heared of that. does that support UTC dates, and dates after the FAT coepoch?
19:23:42 <pikhq> Oh for fucks sake, it does not support dates after the FAT epoch.
19:23:52 <pikhq> It does, however, support UTC timestamps.
19:24:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: well, that matters a bit less. casual users don't generally set the clock on the camera accurately anyway, and dedicated users like me just read the centisecond precision timestamp from the EXIF info in the file content itself.
19:24:29 <hppavilion[2]> Diaspora appears to be a distributed network; one network altogether, but run on different servers. THIS would be like MediaWiki in that you could set it up on your own server for you own usage
19:24:45 <pikhq> The jerks that be ought to just support UDF.
19:24:51 <hppavilion[2]> For example, one could create a social network solely for people in a certain state/province/etc.
19:25:12 <hppavilion[2]> Or an Esolangs social network (though that's kind of what we have IRC for)
19:25:42 <hppavilion[2]> It's just a hypothetical idea that would be used to fill the gaping hole in my heart and distract me from the fact that someday this will all be gone
19:26:28 <\oren\> um how is that a valid xD?
19:27:21 <hppavilion[2]> Channels with multiple concurrent conversations are confusing
19:27:37 <hppavilion[2]> I have no clue what \oren\ is questioning the validity and/or masculinity of
19:28:20 -!- hppavilion[2] has changed nick to hppavilion[1].
19:28:59 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so it kind of sounds like you're suggesting "like Diaspora, except it's impossible to link servers together"?
19:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> Again, it's mostly just a temporary solution to crushing boredom
19:29:50 <tswett> I guess you're saying you want your servers to be relatively independent and isolated or whatever.
19:30:17 <fizzie> Sounds like FidoNet, kinda.
19:30:39 <fizzie> Or that other thing that I forget the name of.
19:31:08 <hppavilion[1]> I want it to be like MediaWiki: Something a person can download and launch to have their own social network up and running in half an hour
19:32:33 <tswett> In any case, in my experience, it's very difficult to find people to contribute to your open-source project before you've started writing it.
19:33:57 <tswett> If you manage to find someone who has exactly the same vision for the project as you, they're likely to work with you, at least for a couple weeks or whatever.
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19:43:03 <hppavilion[1]> NEXT PROJECT: This is one I'm doing myself because it's for school, but I'd like to put it out there in case anyone has any ideas
19:43:35 <hppavilion[1]> It takes place in a small, closed-off ecosystem full of creatures. They change over time.
19:50:02 <MDude> I like evolution simulators, one of my favorite games is Creatures 3.
19:51:37 <Sgeo> Creatures tend to reproduce a bit slowly to be a great evolution simulator
19:51:42 <Sgeo> But I do love C3/DS
19:52:07 <Sgeo> Sort of surprised to see another Creatures person here
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19:53:24 <b_jonas> Sgeo: what why? this channel has all kinds of strange people.
19:53:46 <Sgeo> I didn't think Creatures was that popular
19:54:03 <Sgeo> Even though I'm a part of the community
19:54:06 <b_jonas> … including people who play unpopular games
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19:56:31 <Phantom_Hoover> if you are not currently reading 'the traitor baru cormorant' by seth dickinson i recommend you do so asap
19:58:41 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I consider it, it would be more of an ecosystem simulator than an evolution simulator, though I may still add evolutionary features
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20:32:47 <MDude> Something I'd like in an environment/evolution simulator is plants that evolve along with animals.
20:33:17 <MDude> That and a way for organisms to signal each other so ac to actually form colonies.
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20:35:08 <MDude> Viruses also play a big part in evolution, and most plants are symbiotic with some sort of fungus.
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20:46:11 <hppavilion[1]> MDude: I'm planning to make a whole line of ecological simulators, just for fun. I'll probably add parasites and viri in later installments
20:53:14 <fizzie> fungot: Are you symbiotic with a plant, by any chance?
20:53:14 <fungot> fizzie: they still don't seem to buy into the monolith engine was just not really harder than any other way
20:53:30 <fizzie> fungot: So you would be, but they're just not having it?
20:53:30 <fungot> fizzie: re style sheets, i've always believed that.
20:56:29 <fizzie> fungot: I don't think CSS is a matter of belief, really.
20:56:29 <fungot> fizzie: at what point does the bytecode deal with??? fnord
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21:16:52 <int-e> fizzie: try this: I believe CSS 3 transitions are a mistake.
21:19:50 <fizzie> I guess. But that's more of an opinion-belief. I was thinking of a faith-belief.
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21:43:20 <tswett> There are organisms. Every organism is constantly growing a little bit.
21:43:20 <tswett> When a large organism is next to the small organism, the large one eats the small one, destroying the small one and adding its size to its own size.
21:43:20 <tswett> So if a size-20 organism eats a size-3 organism, it becomes a size-23 organism.
21:43:20 <tswett> Once an organism gets sufficiently big, it splits into two organisms of equal size.
21:44:21 <tswett> (unrelated: local time as of this second is 14:44:21)
21:45:06 <tswett> That's pretty much my entire idea.
21:45:08 <tswett> Make of it what you will.
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21:45:48 <tswett> Also, the timestamps for the logs at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ are about 20 seconds ahead.
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22:06:48 <fizzie> "From: IEEE Signal Processing Society" "Subject: DEADLINE EXTENDED: ICASSP 2021 CALL FOR PROPOSALS DUE 12 OCT 2015" ... "Icedove thinks this message is a scam."
22:07:21 <ais523> most conferences don't have deadlines six years before the conference itself
22:07:31 <fizzie> It's a call for proposal, not a call for papers.
22:07:41 <fizzie> Those tend to be quite early. Although six years is still a bit extreme.
22:08:01 <fizzie> Still, it's a big conference, you can't organize one just like that.
22:09:06 <fizzie> (By a proposal they mean a bid to host it -- including venues, budgets, people, all that stuff.)
22:10:40 <fizzie> Admittedly, the email is very heuristically-scammy too: there's a link with the link text "http://www.signalprocessingsociety.org/[...]" but the actual href is to "http://signalprocessingsociety.us4.list-manage.com/track/click?[...]". I think that's one of the things the scam filter looks for.
22:11:01 <fizzie> Based on the fact that the warning says "the links in the message may be trying to impersonate web pages you want to visit".
22:12:44 <fizzie> I'm also not quite sure why they spam the call-for-proposals to the same mailing lists they send call-for-papers, it's not like a random researcher is going to be "hey, that's a good idea, I'll host a 2000-person conference in my back yard".
22:13:07 <fizzie> On the other hand, the Finnish national electricity grid operator has TV ads too, so what do I know.
22:16:54 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], in agar.io you voluntarily split, and can send off small particles. And also the people are 4channers it seems
22:17:42 <Sgeo> It's one thing that some people call themselves "nazi", it's something else entirely when it turns out that the dev added skins that are based on the name you select, and added one for "nazi"
22:19:40 <Sgeo> I think the dev eventually removed the nazi skin
22:22:47 <Sgeo> I don't think the dev is literally a nazi, just a 4channer. There was also an ISIS skin and other hateful skins
22:23:22 <\oren\> i see. like I said, a dumbass
22:27:06 <\oren\> this is a really boring game
22:29:43 <Sgeo> I actually really like the gameplay
22:31:14 <zzo38> I also don't like CSS 3 transitions and want to disable them in the client if possible. I have disabled some individual one but I want to disable entirely, to be able to write a user CSS code that overrides what commands in a CSS code do
22:34:35 <\oren\> Sgeo: Do you also enjoy watching mold slowly grow on pieces of bread?
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22:36:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: that would be nice. I'd like to disable line-height in CSS.
22:37:17 <Sgeo> \oren\, I like growing big enough to be a major player on a server
22:37:23 <Sgeo> A force to be reckoned with
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22:39:21 <\oren\> Isn't there some prototype browser that's written in Node.js
22:39:43 <\oren\> If you use that, then presumably you can override virtually anything in user code
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22:47:21 <zzo38> I also would like to change what some CSS commands do
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22:52:46 <ais523> Vorpal: you're aware of malloc overcommit, right?
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22:53:13 <ais523> although what's going on there isn't explainable like that
22:53:27 <ais523> ooh, is it integer overflow in the allocator? (especially if you use calloc())
22:53:37 <ais523> the size to allocate might be overflowing over the size of your int
22:53:49 <ais523> making the allocated memory small
22:53:58 <ais523> and then your loop to zero it is trying to zero a lot more memory than you allocated
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23:04:50 <\oren\> ais523: but if it's overflowing shouldn't the size of the zeroed part also overflow?
23:05:09 <ais523> \oren\: it depends on how the loops are written
23:05:14 <ais523> the allocation is measured in bytes
23:05:32 <ais523> whereas a zeroing loop is often measured in whatever units you're working in (e.g. Funge cells), which is a smaller number and thus might not overflow
23:06:21 <ais523> in particular, Vorpal quoted a value of "around 2^62 funge cells", which makes it seem quite likely that that's more than 2^64 bytes but that a loop that processed them a cell at a time wouldn't overflow
23:06:39 <ais523> (at least, not integer overflow; it would buffer overflow instead)
23:08:00 <ais523> hmm, an overflow-based esolang could be interesting, but not my style really
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23:08:04 <ais523> because I like things to be conceptually bignums
23:08:18 <ais523> that said, maybe I should make more esolangs that aren't my style
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23:23:51 <quintopia> int-e steno involves up to 20 simultaneous keys.
23:24:37 <quintopia> i think we could handle chording utf-16
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23:32:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44449&oldid=44421 * Zzo38 * (+1157)
23:36:59 <fizzie> Thanks, Icedove. You said the ICASSP call for proposals was a scam, but you think this SciencePG ("an independent international publisher of 100+ open accesses -- experiencing rapid growth and gaining widespread attention" offering great act-now discounts on article processing costs) call for "journal" submissions is completely legit.
23:42:11 <\oren\> in 30 min the lunar eclipse will begin
23:43:16 <ais523> fizzie: they want you to submit articles for journals? or just submit them the whole journal?
23:44:40 <pikhq> Unfortunately it won't be visible here until sunset.
23:47:02 <\oren\> fizzie: you should use alpine
23:49:32 <fizzie> ais523: Articles, I think, although one of the various blog posts on the subject describes someone replying to point out that their field is something SciencePG has no journal for, to which they got an answer suggesting they could start one and make the person the Editor-in-Chief.
23:49:52 <fizzie> \oren\: I don't see why.
23:50:22 <\oren\> it is a console program and has no spam filter
23:50:47 <\oren\> console programs are better. spam filters are stupid
23:51:01 <fizzie> It's not a spam filter, it's a scam filter.
23:51:47 <fizzie> Anyway, I've been alternating between Icedove and mutt with a frequency of about 3e-8 hertz, and I don't see why I'd pick a pine clone over mutt.
23:51:54 <fizzie> Heh, pine clone, pine cone.
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00:03:13 <ais523> fizzie: "microhertz" is something of a joke, and that was very close to using nanohertz
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00:10:23 <fizzie> "Stochastic microhertz gravitational radiation from stellar convection", says arXiv.
00:11:22 <fizzie> "The microhertz was unit of frequency measurement that saw use in the Galactic Empire", says Wookieepedia, but does not elaborate, sadly.
00:13:55 <fizzie> Doesn't seem to have that many serious uses, indeed.
00:14:45 <fizzie> Some references to "microhertz resolution", which is less interesting.
00:26:15 <myname> you may like verbosefuck
00:26:48 <myname> it's basically bf that looks like java
00:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> OOBF would be cool because, well, BF is tapey. Where would you put Objects?
00:28:53 <fizzie> If you haven't already, you might want to look at Glass. Not that it's a BF derivative at all.
00:29:36 <fizzie> I like Glass; I even wrote something in it, although I can't remember what it was or where I put it or if I finished it.
00:36:52 <fizzie> There's also one language I've been trying to track down, which I think was OO-ish, and very anthropomorphic conventions. You had different job titles as class names, and named instances after matching famous people.
00:37:53 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, why did I direct that at myname specifically? xD
00:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Does OO still suck if it's not forced? e.g. in Python?
00:43:26 <myname> i dislike python wether or not oo is used there
00:43:30 <fizzie> It's ORK. I must have been thinking about ORK.
00:44:59 <fizzie> Actually, I'm not sure if it even has a convention for using famous people names for the people, maybe I just came up with that. Certainly the examples don't seem to do that.
00:46:06 <hppavilion[1]> Also, do you dislike OO even if it's optional in a language like <insert name of scripting language with classes that you like>?
00:46:23 <fizzie> And I think what I wrote was a CRC calculator, of all the things.
00:46:38 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/Lihc I wonder if it even works.
00:46:40 <myname> python has this weird "there is only one way to do it" thing. that just sucks
00:47:05 <myname> hppavilion[1]: that depends very heavily on the problem i am trying to takle
00:47:16 <hppavilion[1]> myname: There should be one, and preferably /only/ one, obvious way to do it
00:47:27 <myname> but i cannot think of anything that needs it or would benefit from it
00:47:31 <hppavilion[1]> That's the rule in python. I will admit it's not the best, but it's still a good language
00:48:16 <myname> these are two completely different things
00:48:38 <Taneb> Lunar eclipse tonight aaaaaaaa
00:50:35 <myname> guis are just annoying to use via ssh
00:50:48 <Denis_40> i cannot draw even a dick, let alone creating gui
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00:52:20 <myname> at the moment i do everything either via ssh or some android app
00:52:45 <myname> haven't touched an x86 in months
00:53:17 <Denis_40> myname, buy an x86 tablet, let arm alone :)
00:53:41 <Denis_40> how do you create such guis in an easy way?
00:53:42 <myname> i tried making arch work on my arm tablrt
00:53:52 <myname> didn't work like i wanted it to
00:54:05 <myname> hppavilion[1]: how else?
00:54:27 <myname> Denis_40: learn rust and drop c++ before it's too late
00:55:03 <Denis_40> it's already too late: I am going to start university, and for 2 years C++ will be the only language i'll use
00:55:33 <myname> sounds like a crappy university. at least if you study cs
00:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> Denis_40: Ah. I'm not sure how to do GUI with C or C++ (though I've heard about wxwidgets; someone liked it enough to port it to Python), Rust might be a good idea like myname said, but I personally prefer Python (though you can't really sell python applications unless you're giving it to a company)
00:56:31 <hppavilion[1]> Denis_40: It's a bad idea to ONLY use one language for years. You can do just C++ for assignments, but you should DEFINITELY know other languages
00:56:37 <myname> hppavilion[1]: well, since qt is written in c++, using qt in c++ should be fairly easy
00:57:05 <hppavilion[1]> You could learn Haskell, possibly. Haskell is pretty good AND is intuitive for GUIs, I've heard
00:57:20 <Denis_40> well, i can use php, js css, scss and less, but I am not going to build guis with that
00:57:44 <myname> Denis_40: go learn you some haskell for great good
00:58:01 <myname> not for the sake of building guis
00:58:12 <hppavilion[1]> Technically, all you /do/ with PHP, JS, CSS, SCSS, and LESS is make GUIs, or more accurately stylize GUIs
00:58:20 <Denis_40> ahahahah after i have completed my actual book
00:58:23 <myname> but for the sake of learning a different way to think abouut problems
00:58:35 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: People use PHP for more than web.
00:59:05 <fizzie> (Even more so, possibly.)
00:59:27 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: Why? I mean, I've looked at PHP code AND I read a website on it (I just put that for laughs). It's worse than Perl.
00:59:37 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Who knows, but they do.
00:59:50 <myname> fizzie: the uglier the language the more people try to use it where it's misplaced
01:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> PHP's array() is slightly better. But only barely.
01:00:36 <myname> hppavilion[1]: while a "list" in perl is something very weird
01:01:03 <fizzie> I've got a tool to download videos from the Finnish national broadcasting company's website, and it calls https://github.com/K-S-V/Scripts/blob/master/AdobeHDS.php to handle Adobe HDS streaming stuff. You need to install the command-line PHP tool for it.
01:02:00 <myname> hppavilion[1]: https://youtu.be/gweDBQ-9LuQ
01:09:55 <FreeFull> I can see some of Earth's shadow on the surface of the Moon
01:15:32 <Denis_40> no, it is ever worse, having variables that changes type is the worst thing you will ever have
01:16:27 <myname> having objects being null is way more annoying
01:16:41 <Denis_40> should I check the type of this variable? damn, what should I pass to this function, that variable..... what type is it?
01:17:20 <Denis_40> why null is equal to 0 despite the fact they are two different things?
01:17:32 <myname> php doesn't care what type it is. most of the time, every type is okay
01:18:09 <myname> there are some horrible problems that arise from people not being able to handle that, indeed
01:19:00 <myname> but if you know what you are doing you can work perfectly fine with it without noticable overhead
01:19:09 <Denis_40> pick one type and it will be ok is bad. Because you aren't actually thinking at what you are doing
01:20:09 <Denis_40> I mean... i can use integer or double... "what should I use" is not a question I am going to ask myself
01:20:21 <Phantom_Hoover> the great thing is that its horribleness isn't down to one architectural problem that you can nerd out over
01:20:57 <myname> how is "i don't have to care about useless casting stuff" a bad thing?
01:21:00 <Phantom_Hoover> every part of php is full of hilarious, horrifying fuckups; you can only truly hate it holistically
01:21:11 <myname> Phantom_Hoover: indeed
01:21:12 <Denis_40> because "everything just works most of the times"
01:21:14 <Phantom_Hoover> myname, ah but you do have to care about useless casting
01:21:31 <myname> but it is not because of its weak tyoe system
01:22:05 <myname> Denis_40: working with that is way easier than you might think
01:22:14 <myname> you just have to know what you are doing
01:22:16 <pikhq> PHP: because T_PAAMAYIM_NEKUDOTAYIM
01:22:31 <Denis_40> https://github.com/NeroReflex/Gishiki
01:23:15 <Denis_40> hilariously.... knowing what you are doing is not going to be a good thing
01:23:49 <myname> in php you have to know what you are doing in like 1% of the code that most people never even do
01:24:02 <myname> in c++ you have to know what you are doing every single.line
01:24:21 <myname> hppavilion[1]: watch the video i linked you to
01:24:27 <Denis_40> php is a stupid language, where everything is an array and OOP doesn't exists
01:24:44 <myname> Denis_40: that is plain wrong
01:24:54 <Denis_40> that link is a framework I wrote on php
01:25:04 <Denis_40> I am not talking about you can use classes
01:25:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'll keep the tab open and close it in a month
01:25:23 <Denis_40> I am talking about memory is managed as an array
01:25:58 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's just a brief introduction to perl lists
01:26:24 <Denis_40> moved in memory every fucked instruction
01:26:48 <Denis_40> you can find the limit in the php.ini
01:27:08 <Denis_40> but the limit is a per-call-limit
01:27:43 <Phantom_Hoover> for one thing i'm sure php would allow for unbounded integers
01:28:26 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't mean like that, i mean that it'd be 'in spec' to make normal ints unbounded
01:28:40 <Denis_40> so... you can have yours scripts to occupy max 1GB ram, but that GB is intended per call
01:29:13 <Denis_40> you are running PHP in a server
01:29:14 <hppavilion[1]> You're getting into low level stuff I'm still learning now
01:29:17 <Phantom_Hoover> (c is a conspicuous exception to this because you have sizeof and a bounded char width)
01:29:50 <Denis_40> and you can only use the resources associated with that given CPU
01:30:07 <Denis_40> are you fucking kidding me? And if I need more?
01:30:28 <Denis_40> facebook say: i'll rewrite php
01:30:59 <hppavilion[1]> WSN say: I have no clue what I'm doing someone help me
01:31:08 <pikhq> Google say: use C++, Java, Go, and Python.
01:31:17 <myname> ruby as a language is neat. the universe around it sucks pretty hard, though
01:31:55 <Denis_40> i have written a social network that is not working (because of server loads)
01:32:19 <Denis_40> so... maybe I should do a code review and re-think about it?
01:32:26 <zzo38> I think "everything is an array and OOP doesn't exists" is kind of (but not quite) true for PHP 4
01:32:38 <Denis_40> Nah, it is better spending 12342454361641523412521451345 dollars rewriting php
01:33:00 <zzo38> Use different programming language such as C
01:33:15 <zzo38> Both are better than PHP
01:33:43 <zzo38> Some libraries require PHP though
01:33:50 <Denis_40> actually, I think there are a very limited number of programming language worst than php
01:34:52 <Denis_40> I was hilarious about mark zucchina
01:34:58 <zzo38> You could also try to write it in SQL, it might also be better
01:35:30 <Denis_40> I will create an ftp social network
01:35:54 <zzo38> FTP is not a programming language; you will still need to use some programming language
01:36:39 <Denis_40> is it so much different from facebook?
01:36:50 <zzo38> You can use FTP, but you should need a program too
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01:37:05 <zzo38> The computer it won't do without the program
01:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: Does an HTML directory of FTP servers count?
01:37:22 <Denis_40> i don't need a program, who want to use it need a program
01:37:39 <Denis_40> however, as with facebook, you are free to use the client you want
01:37:51 <zzo38> Denis_40: No you do, there need server program and client program, like with any internet protocol
01:37:57 <zzo38> So you do need a program.
01:38:36 <Denis_40> but..... well... I have not decided what program will I use
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01:39:10 <Denis_40> and if I should rolling one out
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01:40:48 <\oren\> you can write anything in C
01:41:31 <myname> use assembly, you can write anything in assembly
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01:42:18 <FreeFull> You can motivate Taneb to write anything
01:43:14 <\oren\> interesting fact: I have never seen any of the star wars movies
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01:44:05 <Denis_40> who doesn't love pic? they are so.....swetty <3
01:44:37 <\oren\> you should figure out a pic to help compute who is likely friends with who
01:45:18 <\oren\> for a social network, friend reccomends are important
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02:00:06 <lambdabot> izabera said 1m 1d 13h 58m 57s ago: yo
02:06:19 <\oren\> crap, its clWdE hEr in tRonu!
02:08:16 <lambdabot> CYUL 280200Z 17006KT 15SM FEW240 16/11 A3019 RMK CI1 CI TR SLP224
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04:01:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/Programming languages with unusual features]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44450&oldid=44449 * Zzo38 * (+167)
04:03:17 -!- bender| has changed nick to BENDER|.
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04:55:31 * oerjan uses the DOM explorer to force the tunes.org logs to wrap
05:05:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44451&oldid=44430 * Oerjan * (+2) The only thing that gives me a fit about your signatures is where you placed them.
05:06:24 <zzo38> Could you use Stylish extension to make the change permanent?
05:07:25 <ais523> IE has extensions, I think
05:07:29 <ais523> but I doubt they have the same name
05:07:46 <ais523> injected CSS/JS is one of the most obvious extensions there is though
05:08:38 <zzo38> I don't know how it is done in IE, but I thought in newer versions it may be possible at least
05:08:46 <zzo38> What version of IE is it anyways?
05:09:44 <oerjan> also, the logs still don't look that good. the page content is still one big <pre> (which admittedly made it easy to make it wrap)
05:09:49 <zzo38> See if there is the injected CSS/JS supporting then.
05:10:05 -!- bender| has changed nick to bender.
05:10:38 <oerjan> i find it disturbing that the help button for the DOM explorer leads to a Microsoft Edge webpage.
05:10:59 <oerjan> not only am i using IE, microsoft itself doesn't really want me to.
05:11:52 <zzo38> Then why do they make IE?
05:12:38 <oerjan> i mean, they want me to change to the brand new Edge, which i found horrible at first sight.
05:12:38 <zzo38> Do you know how good it is in a Dungeons&Dragons game to lose a class level (at least 5th) in exchange for two bonus feats and a few skills?
05:14:13 <oerjan> Gregor: codu.org is down hth
05:14:25 <oerjan> Gregor also seems pretty down
05:18:03 <hppavilion[1]> I have decided to add a principle to hppavilion[1]ism
05:18:27 <oerjan> good principle, especially with that nick hth
05:21:23 <shachaf> `` culprits wisdom | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:25 <HackEgo> 527 oerjan \ 182 shachaf \ 112 boily \ 55 elliott \ 50 Taneb \ 43 int-e \ 39 mroman \ 38 GreyKnight \ 32 mroman_ \ 29 Phantom_Hoover \ 28 tswett \ 27 Roujo \ 18 Bike \ 17 ZombieCheney \ 16 olsner \ 16 Jafet \ 16 FreeFull \ 13 fizzie \ 12
05:21:28 <shachaf> `` culprits quotes | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:30 <HackEgo> 328 elliott \ 321 oerjan \ 75 kmc \ 74 shachaf \ 52 ais523 \ 40 coppro \ 26 monqy \ 16 boily \ 14 Taneb \ 14 GreyKnight \ 13 Phantom_Hoover \ 11 shubshub \ 11 quintopia \ 11 Gregor \ 9 fizzie \ 8 mnoqy \ 8 FireFly \ 8 Fiora \ 8 ell
05:21:34 <shachaf> `` culprits . | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:37 <HackEgo> 1487 oerjan \ 614 elliott \ 536 shachaf \ 193 boily \ 179 Jafet \ 177 GreyKnight \ 165 kmc \ 164 fizzie \ 138 Roujo \ 135 Taneb \ 126 ais523 \ 102 mroman_ \ 99 int-e \ 98 Bike \ 94 nortti \ 90 nooodl \ 86 Phantom_Hoover \ 68 tswett \ 67 Sgeo \
05:21:50 <shachaf> `` culprits bin | tr ' ' '\n' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
05:21:52 <HackEgo> 287 oerjan \ 176 shachaf \ 110 Jafet \ 97 elliott \ 84 fizzie \ 61 Roujo \ 38 kmc \ 37 nooodl \ 35 nortti \ 32 int-e \ 30 tswett \ 29 FireFly \ 28 c00kiemon5ter \ 26 mrhmouse \ 26 ion \ 25 boily \ 25 b_jonas \ 24 ais523 \ 22 Taneb \
05:22:21 <zzo38> My name is Black, and if I called everything Black even things that are White, then you will not be able to tell the difference very well!
05:22:24 <Sgeo> I think there's a weird character in oerjan
05:22:44 <Sgeo> Or at least, my client started hilighting me but ended before oerjan's n
05:23:42 <oerjan> shachaf: elliott has edited the quotes more than me?
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05:24:42 <shachaf> I'm surprised nitia isn't listed anywhere there.
05:25:13 <oerjan> um it will have only one edit, surely
05:25:30 <oerjan> and will be at the bottom.
05:28:16 <shachaf> In retrospect that's a pretty silly thing to be surprised about.
05:29:02 <shachaf> Not clear what my thought process was there.
05:29:52 <oerjan> nitia, nitia, where art thou, nitia
05:31:15 <oerjan> wait, is that the one which actually says wherefore
05:31:47 <shachaf> oerjan: it also actualy says romeo hth
05:32:12 <shachaf> also there's no comma there
05:32:18 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan GreyKnight oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
05:32:38 <oerjan> stupid shakespeare ruining everything
05:33:13 <shachaf> Sgeo: Bike goes by Nitya sometimes.
05:33:39 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
05:36:05 <Sgeo> nitia isn't a thing
05:36:40 <Sgeo> izabera, nitia is the inventory of the BBC
05:36:53 <izabera> oh ok now everything makes sense
05:37:21 <Sgeo> She is also the inventory of the BBC, which explains how she is the inventorn of all things.
05:37:22 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> \oren\: oh I see what happened, I had somehow conflated "conspicuous" and "suspicious" <-- itym "sufflated" hth
05:37:53 <HackEgo> The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
05:38:17 <shachaf> `learn An inventory is a collection of inventions.
05:38:18 <izabera> did she only invent things or also not things?
05:39:01 <lambdabot> KAFK 280515Z AUTO 18010KT 10SM CLR 18/17 A2994 RMK AO2 T01800166
05:39:07 <oerjan> did HackEgo deadlock or something
05:39:40 <zzo38> BBC is a British television show, don't you know that????? It is the least bad television show in the world (approximately).
05:39:56 <lambdabot> LIMK 280455Z 35008KT 9999 SCT040 11/11 Q1025 RMK BKN SCT060 VAL FOSCHIA VIS MIN 9999
05:40:42 <zzo38> I don't know what "VAL FOSCHIA VIS MIN 9999" means; I don't live in that country.
05:41:03 <zzo38> Then you must learn what it means.
05:41:13 <izabera> foschia is fog, val is valley, 9999 is 9999
05:41:29 <oerjan> it's secret codes for the romans to reconquer the world. fortunately they're very bad at it.
05:42:46 <oerjan> VIS MIN probably means "visibility minimum" or something like that
05:42:57 <lambdabot> KOAK 280453Z 32004KT 10SM FEW010 16/13 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T01610128
05:43:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 280520Z 12004KT 050V180 1500E 9999 R09/P2000N R27/0450 VCFG FEW002 BKN031 08/08 Q1038 TEMPO 0400 FG BKN002 RMK WIND 670FT 16007KT
05:44:01 <zzo38> I think the stuff after "RMK" differs by each country
05:44:10 <oerjan> i suppose the part zzo38 didn't understand is the part that was obvious to izabera
05:44:48 <shachaf> <Mike Stay> "Save the environment: use continuation passing style!"
05:44:51 <izabera> err yes that was totally obvious
05:45:01 <oerjan> "RMK simply means REMARKS and marks the end of the standard metar observation and the beginning of the remarks"
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05:46:06 <oerjan> we saved the environment, and now we have no idea where we put it
05:46:18 <zzo38> oerjan: I know that. But I think the remarks differ by country?
05:46:24 <shachaf> how does continuation passing style work with linear types twh
05:46:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i figure as long as the continuations are single-use, it probably fits perfectly
05:47:15 <oerjan> except then you _have_ to use it...
05:47:34 <shachaf> That doesn't matter, you can always use it if you want, I think.
05:47:41 <shachaf> But single-use continuations are much weaker than multi-use continuations.
05:48:00 <oerjan> which might mean that with linear types, continuations give you no more power than not using them...
05:48:19 <oerjan> i suppose you could switch the call order
05:48:20 <shachaf> How about LEM in linear logic? I guess you would have to ask which "or" it's using.
05:48:23 <Jafet> You don't have to use it, as long as you keep it around
05:48:43 <oerjan> shachaf: you know you can use ! right
05:49:00 <shachaf> The person defining the primitive?
05:50:21 <oerjan> i suppose you cannot use ! for a continuation that refers to anything not having !
05:51:19 <shachaf> OK, so I guess LEM uses par.
05:52:10 <shachaf> "LEM" stands for "lemma of excluded middle", obviously
05:53:06 <Jafet> "Lemma of excluded middle" my ass
05:55:26 <Jafet> Is a linear continuation more linear than a linear closure?
05:56:14 <oerjan> clearly the optimal linearity is to do linear algebra in linear logic hth
05:56:32 <shachaf> oerjan: linear algebra and linear logic are hardly unrelated tdnh
05:57:09 <oerjan> 2*x + 1 = 1 has no solution; you cannot use x twice hth
05:57:59 <shachaf> x^2 + 1 = 1 is the thing that's disallowed
05:58:37 <shachaf> i'll continue to tdnh as long as you continue to nh hth
06:00:34 <shachaf> perhaps that should be tnhhnbh
06:00:52 <shachaf> perhaps i went too far with "how the tables have turned"
06:39:58 <oerjan> 's ok, i didn't even notice those until now
06:41:21 <shachaf> oerjan: you should play factorio hth
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07:12:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Twanitk1012 * New user account
07:17:21 <zzo38> I would want to see more cards in Magic: the Gathering that are like Sorrow's Path and other cards like how they have done many of the much older cards
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07:44:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44452&oldid=44451 * Rdebath * (+642) Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? -- Still unproven.
07:47:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44453&oldid=44452 * Rdebath * (-1) Hey! It moved!
07:48:28 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M310246364343459938226134’
07:48:28 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
07:48:31 <oerjan> > minBound * (-1) :: Int
08:13:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: that card seems hard to use, because of the damage it deals
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08:37:33 <b_jonas> It turns out that a lot of English words are pronounced with an /a:/ in UK English, but with a /{/ in US English. These include at least "can't, last, fast, past, path, dance, vast".
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08:39:10 <b_jonas> Do you have a list of the most common such words so I can be consciously aware of this and don't get tripped up again? "path" was my current problem.
08:40:10 <ais523> b_jonas: it's not necessarily a US versus UK divide
08:40:26 <ais523> that's one of the strongest linguistic indicators of north England versus south England
08:40:56 <ais523> (and given that my parents come from opposite ends of the country, I tend to pick the pronunciation of that sort of 'a' at randomg)
08:41:36 <myname> i do pronounce the a in dance different than the a in last
08:41:51 <myname> am i doing horrible things there?
08:42:10 <oerjan> typical r'lyeh english
08:46:33 <Jafet> Gathering data, b_jonas, or just passing by to ask?
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08:51:11 <b_jonas> ais523, Jafet: I was partly aware that there are two pronunciations, unconsciously, but it always confuses me because I always think that whatever pronunciation I hear last from a reliably source is the one true pronunciation and the other one I thought before was just an error. "can't" is so common that eventually it began to dawn on me. However,
08:51:46 <b_jonas> I heared "path" pronounced with /{/ in a song now and didn't recognize the word, had to look it up in the lyrics, because I didn't know "path" would be such a word too.
08:52:12 <b_jonas> If I saw a list of these words, I might remember, and might understand the next time someone pronounces such a word with an /{/
08:52:28 <b_jonas> myname: "dance" might be more complicated, apparently the final consonant can vary too.
08:52:52 <b_jonas> ais523: north England versus south England? ok.
08:54:55 <myname> i can live with can't and dance with two different prnounciations, but path or last sound weird with one of them
08:55:33 <b_jonas> myname: "last" as noun or verb?
08:56:18 <myname> are they different? :o
08:56:47 <b_jonas> myname: probably not different. but "last" is a crazy quadruple homonym or something, so who knows?
08:58:07 <b_jonas> apparently "last" has two common etimologies, plus two extra rare ones that I've never even heared about.
08:59:48 <myname> because fuck consistent pronounciation
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09:01:47 <Jafet> You could intersect these two lists: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/æ- https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Rhymes:English/ɑː-
09:02:11 <Jafet> Unfortunately they're not actual categories for some reason, so catscan can't be used
09:03:01 <b_jonas> Jafet: I'd like to download and parse and transliterate a hundred thousand English pronunciations from en.wiktionary eventually, but sadly en.wiktionary is lacking, there are lots of words that completely lack pronunciatoin entries
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09:03:38 <b_jonas> Though admittedly a lot of words have "rhyme" or pronunciation sound recording entries but no transcribed proununciation
09:07:58 <b_jonas> but sound recordings don't help me
09:08:21 <Jafet> Oh hm, there are three pronounciations for "data".
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10:37:19 <myname> another english fuckup that came in my mind: lose vs loose
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11:18:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44454&oldid=43159 * LegionMammal978 * (+6970) added interpreter
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11:25:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44455&oldid=44454 * LegionMammal978 * (-561) /* Implementation */
11:28:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44456&oldid=44455 * LegionMammal978 * (+66) /* Implementation */
11:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44457&oldid=44456 * LegionMammal978 * (-2) /* Examples */
11:38:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44458&oldid=44457 * LegionMammal978 * (+75) /* Implementation */
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12:13:33 <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, maybe DNE as opposed to callCC corresponds to a continuation that you use one way.
12:14:00 <shachaf> ((P -> Q) -> Q) -> P vs. ((P -> Q) -> P) -> P
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13:00:32 <fizzie> Huh. Usually, when that happens, it has just dropped off the channel and not rejoined.
13:03:11 <shachaf> It's been going on for a while.
13:06:26 <fizzie> Still posting those wiki things, though?
13:08:39 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
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13:12:17 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess it's just the umlboxery, then.
13:13:32 <fizzie> I see shachaf used "`echo a" while I used "`echo foo" to test.
13:14:10 <shachaf> I assumed messages to HackEgo were confidential.
13:14:29 <fizzie> There's confidential and then there's "confidential".
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13:14:56 <shachaf> didn't they teach you about PII hth
13:16:03 <fizzie> I was hoping to find some error messages in "freenode.log", because I think I found some there earlier.
13:16:09 <fizzie> Sadly, it's just silent.
13:22:39 <fizzie> There's a gazillion defunct python processes, and the lockfile is locked.
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13:26:03 <fizzie> And quite a few umlbox instances too.
13:26:13 <fizzie> bash: lsof: command not found
13:27:16 <fizzie> Thanks to proc, I know 11 processes have the lock file open, but I'm not sure how to tell which one of those is actually holding the exclusive lock.
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13:28:40 <fizzie> Although maybe the one with 100% CPU use is a likely candidate.
13:29:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: what type of lock?
13:30:21 <fizzie> b_jonas: Python fcntl.flock lock.
13:30:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: what operating system?
13:31:22 <fizzie> The 100% CPU use one is the one running `! underload (:*:^):^ but there's supposed to be limits.
13:32:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: open the file from a new process, call fcntl F_GETLK on it on the whole range, examine return value and the l_pid field in the struct flock instance it fills out for you. that should tell the pid of a process that holds a lock.
13:33:31 <fizzie> Or maybe I'll just kill that one umlbox and see if it clears up.
13:33:50 <b_jonas> examine the l_type field in that structure too, if its value is F_UNLCK then there's no lock found, ignore the l_pid field
13:34:25 <HackEgo> Denis_40: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:34:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'inventory': An inventory is a collection of inventions.
13:34:49 <b_jonas> you have to fill l_type to F_WRLCK or F_RDLCK before the call
13:35:00 <fizzie> I think it's slightly moot now.
13:35:27 <b_jonas> sure, I'm just saying in case you meet this in the future
13:35:34 <fizzie> TBD: why umlbox "--timeout 30" didn't timeout.
13:40:01 <Jafet> `learn Afk wrote a famous story about hang.
13:40:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'afk': Afk wrote a famous story about hang.
13:57:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44459&oldid=44453 * Int-e * (+385) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
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14:04:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44460&oldid=44459 * Int-e * (+0) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ I can't count.
14:06:47 <ski> shachaf : "twh" ?
14:07:58 <int-e> that will|would|won't help [the last reading upsets some people here, I don't know why]
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14:15:47 <Taneb> What's your favourite universal turing machine
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14:25:24 <Taneb> Thanks, fizzie, tdg
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14:44:07 <Vorpal> <ais523> in particular, Vorpal quoted a value of "around 2^62 funge cells", which makes it seem quite likely that that's more than 2^64 bytes but that a loop that processed them a cell at a time wouldn't overflow <-- that would make sense if I got a SIGKILL from the OOM killer. Instead I get a SIGSEGV in the end
14:45:01 <Vorpal> <ais523> and then your loop to zero it is trying to zero a lot more memory than you allocated <-- something like that seems more likely yes
14:45:11 <Vorpal> <\oren\> ais523: but if it's overflowing shouldn't the size of the zeroed part also overflow?
14:45:11 <Vorpal> <ais523> \oren\: it depends on how the loops are written
14:45:20 <Vorpal> well it is realloc() to grow, then memset() to zero
14:45:53 <Vorpal> oh the first line was wrong quote from ais, I meant his first quote
14:46:04 <Vorpal> Anyway, I will look at that later, have more urgent stuff to do
14:51:45 <Denis_40> damn, i can't join this channel using pidgin
14:52:00 <Denis_40> well, i can't join this server
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15:28:25 * oerjan skipped the previous logs
15:31:35 <int-e> oerjan: who are you and what have you done to oerjan?
15:31:56 <oerjan> well codu was down then, and tunes's format is awkward to read
15:32:17 <oerjan> especially the wiki announcements
15:32:54 <oerjan> i did, however, search for my nick, so i could have a proper fit tdh
15:32:58 <int-e> clog: show some responsibility, people rely on you.
15:33:22 <int-e> or am I mixing up the logging bots...
15:33:39 <oerjan> you can't be int-e either, he would _never_ register a wiki account hth
15:33:55 <int-e> I was surprised as well.
15:34:10 <int-e> Pleasantly when I realized that the e-mail address was optional.
15:34:23 <oerjan> i recommend adding it hth
15:34:39 <oerjan> unless you have a very reliable password scheme
15:34:59 <int-e> it's quite reliable and insecure.
15:35:18 <int-e> and I can always make another account ;)
15:35:55 <oerjan> VirgoLang had to do that not long ago
15:35:55 <int-e> or go back to being IP addresses
15:36:23 <oerjan> also, you can disable the part where anyone gets to actually send you email.
15:36:58 <int-e> I'd probably do that if I added my email address
15:37:16 <oerjan> also, it's not shown to anyone who isn't an admin, unless you reply to an email
15:37:22 <int-e> anyway, back to writing a review
15:37:41 <oerjan> (i don't know how big an admin one needs to be)
15:38:25 <int-e> that's the first paper I'm reviewing where the word "useless" will very likely make it into the final review...
15:40:07 <oerjan> oh also if you send an email, i guess
15:42:48 <oerjan> as far as i can see, i cannot get to anyone's email address
15:43:22 <oerjan> although perhaps there's just a very secret way of getting to it
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15:52:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44461&oldid=43949 * 166.102.136.7 * (+42)
15:53:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44462&oldid=44461 * 166.102.136.7 * (+0)
15:54:50 <Taneb> oerjan: is it included in a dump of the wiki
15:55:47 <oerjan> i don't know, i've never seen one
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16:00:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44463&oldid=44462 * Oerjan * (-42) Move batch specific comment to that section; remove snarky comment.
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16:07:39 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: Hmm, maybe DNE as opposed to callCC corresponds to a continuation that you use one way. <-- DNE inatiafw hth
16:08:17 <shachaf> double negation elimination hth
16:13:27 <HackEgo> An inventory is a collection of inventions.
16:13:40 <oerjan> oh that did get through
16:13:58 <oerjan> it was about when i noticed HackEgo got silent
16:14:11 * oerjan didn't notice if it pinged out eventually
16:15:08 <oerjan> `learn The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
16:15:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanebventory': The Tanebventory is big. Really big. For one thing, it contains a Hilbert hotel.
16:15:31 <shachaf> i got a response to /msgs to HackEgo ~8 hours after sending them hth
16:16:09 <int-e> oerjan: you know if things like inatiafw are actually readable, you might be a tad too predictable.
16:17:07 <shachaf> int-e: What, so you think oerjan should type out the sentence instead?
16:17:18 <oerjan> _or_ you may be assimilating my secret code precisely according to plan *MWAHAHAHA*
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16:31:53 <oerjan> Vorpal: i am not sure ais523 reads logs
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16:50:13 <int-e> (wrong channel... my ghc at work is broken, stupid Arch Linux)
16:53:43 <shachaf> on the bright side i seem to have gotten approval to have ais523 send me his thesis tdh
16:57:38 <int-e> (it can't find libncursesw.so.5 anymore, since there's now a libncursesw.so.6... I did the wacky thing and added a symlink, which seems to work for now)
17:06:07 <oerjan> ais523 is just about the only person i know of who might actually care...
17:06:35 <shachaf> actually care about the thing i said?
17:06:47 <oerjan> care about getting approval first
17:07:46 <shachaf> <shachaf> Is there a reason you can't publish a copy directly, by the way?
17:07:53 <shachaf> <ais523> shachaf: I'm not sure
17:07:58 <shachaf> <ais523> and so far, haven't done so in case I get into trouble
17:09:21 <shachaf> it wouldn't be great to write your whole PhD thesis and then have it revoked at the last moment because you shared it with someone
17:11:33 <shachaf> very likely to happen, incidentally
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17:12:32 <fizzie> I sent my application-for-this-and-that form today.
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17:12:58 <fizzie> They told me to avoid communicating in any way with the pre-examiners.
17:13:18 <quintopia> how long til you receive it? (or rejection)
17:13:41 <fizzie> They have 8 weeks to submit their opinions.
17:13:58 <Vorpal> @tell ais523 I managed to fix the allocation size overflow. It was indeed an issue that the size parameter to realloc() overflowed, but it also overflowed in memset. What happened was that a *second* stack-stack-operation a bit later ended up memsetting outside the area (which was supposedly already allocated but above the top of the stack)
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17:15:04 <fizzie> And I think there were something like 5 different outcomes, much like in a journal paper submission. "Accept as-is", "accept with minor revisions [checked only by the supervising professor]", "accept with major revisions [re-checked by the pre-examiners]", and then a soft and a hard reject, with some slight difference.
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17:18:59 <fizzie> Thanks. Disclaimer: the details weren't exactly as described above, but close enough for government work.
17:19:40 <quintopia> well i didnt read up far enough to see details so i wont be disappointed
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17:36:27 <Vorpal> fizzie, btw if you can trick fungot into allocating between 2^61+1 and 2^64-1 funge cells in a stack-stack operation, there is a possibility that remote code execution could be possible, depending on what memory it can then manage to overwrite
17:36:27 <fungot> Vorpal: i haven't considered dynamic-wind yet. spent yesterday making various packagings of my code, where compilers output proofs that machine code is _clearly_ more powerful, why don't many implementations have that mechanism? has there been any noise about the ephemeral jit?
17:36:38 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:37:09 <Vorpal> fizzie, so if you feel that affects you, you should update
17:37:19 <Vorpal> Also, I should like totally get a CVE for this :D
17:37:57 -!- oerjan has set topic: Critical Funge98 vulnerability: Update now! | ɛ̃ˈglɪʃ spɛˈliŋ ʀɘfɔʀm/ | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | https://esolangs.org/.
17:40:36 <int-e> ok, review done. "useless" didn't quite make it; it became "virtually useless"
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17:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> I GOT SYNTAX HIGHLIGHTING WORKING PERFECTLY IN MY λ-CALCULATOR!
17:50:25 <hppavilion[1]> Apparently, it's the order that you /create/ formatting tags that determines precedence, NOT the application order
17:51:19 <gamemanj> This bot syntax doesn't work here AFAIK, but never-the-less:
17:51:55 <int-e> @karma hppavilion[1]
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17:52:32 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: well, it's accumulated from a lot of channels
17:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> * Comments are a moderate shade of red and italicizid
17:53:05 -!- XorSwap has joined.
17:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> * Parens are bold and bright red (I'll probably only make it so that is in affect on nearby cursor)
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17:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> There's a theta combinator that is equivalent to "YO"
17:56:06 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it's likely you could only trick fungot into doing that if you found an arbitrary funge execution vulnerability in it, and that would be bad even without the crash.
17:56:06 <fungot> fizzie: scheme48 doesn't have a way
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17:57:15 <int-e> fungot: good for scheme, but what about funge?
17:57:15 <fungot> int-e: really nice btw.
17:57:25 <Vorpal> fizzie, also, if you can trick it into running this program with srandom(4) set at program start, you will get a stack overflow:
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17:57:44 <Vorpal> No, I have no idea how
17:58:10 <hppavilion[1]> (S((S((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)S)(KK))(S(KS)K)(S(SKK)(SKK)))((S((S(KS)K)()S(KS)KS)(KK))(S(KS)K)(S(SKK)(SKK))))(S(SKK))
17:58:24 <hppavilion[1]> That, though I might've majorly screwed up on the parenthesis
17:59:15 <hppavilion[1]> I just put parenthesis around evey combinator expansion. That's correct, right?
17:59:42 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], what is it that you are doing syntax highlighting in?
18:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> I'm using Tkinter as that's what comes with Python by default, and I don't want to force any potential users to install anything more than python
18:00:51 <hppavilion[1]> I /might've/ used Kivy if I could've gotten it working on Anaconda, but then everyone who used the application would have to do the same
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18:01:53 <Vorpal> fizzie, it seems any program on the format "0000...000?kk followed by 0000...0000y has this behaviour on srandom(4) heh
18:02:41 <hppavilion[1]> There's a Bald Eagle combinator: Ê = B(BBB)(B(BBB))
18:03:51 <hppavilion[1]> (Ê = (S(KS)K)((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)(S(KS)K))((S(KS)K)((S(KS)K)(S(KS)K)(S(KS)K))))
18:06:12 <zzo38> I would want to be able to use "one-time-pad" protocol which can wrap other protocols although it would be most useful for wrapping SSH and does not seem useful for others.
18:06:22 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], what is anaconda?
18:06:53 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Python distribution that includes the SciPy stack and a bunch of other science libraries that need to be compiled with python to work
18:06:58 <Vorpal> Anyway pip allows for installing anything easily into a virtualenv or into ~/.local/lib/python-3x/
18:07:38 <hppavilion[1]> Though I would use the conda virtualenv thing, most likely. Conda is better than pip, afaict
18:07:42 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], oh? You can't install numpy and scipy with pip/setuptools after like normal modules?
18:08:00 <Vorpal> Never dealt with those libraries
18:08:03 <hppavilion[1]> They're written in C and are part of python, like the Math library or the Socket library
18:08:15 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], you can write .so for python to load
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18:08:35 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think that works though, or else I wouldn't have needed to switch to anaconda xD
18:08:57 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], but I built python extensions in C before, so I know that parts work
18:09:05 <Vorpal> I wonder what scipy does that is so special
18:09:22 <hppavilion[1]> I installed Anaconda because its got all the normal libraries, PLUS it does sciency things
18:09:42 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: High-efficiency array manipulation (multiplying by scalars, etc.)
18:10:00 <hppavilion[1]> It's good for data, I hear. I really just got it as a "Just in case" measure
18:10:04 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], seems doable as a normal extension too
18:10:29 <Vorpal> I just use normal python 3.5
18:10:45 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], it is fairly efficient, it is the same interface that python itself uses internally :P
18:10:54 <Vorpal> For defining methods I mean
18:11:08 <hppavilion[1]> I will use Python 3.5 as soon as Anaconda comes in that version. I'm excited about the @ operator and the asynch for loops and things
18:11:11 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], take a look at python's C API
18:11:20 <zzo38> I did think of several things to avoid problems that bad implementations would have, including problem if someone tries to send random data to the server, problem with synchronization, problem if someone in the middle changes a few bits, etc
18:11:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44464&oldid=44460 * Rdebath * (+405) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
18:11:37 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], So I see no reason for numpy to not just do that so far
18:12:43 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], this seems to indicate it can be built out of tree, but needs a lot of dependencies: https://www.scipy.org/scipylib/building/linux.html#generic-instructions
18:12:51 <Vorpal> Also not buildable with pip maybe?
18:13:29 <hppavilion[1]> I just kind of assumed it is because I wasn't sure if C can dynamically load other executables xD
18:13:44 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], haven't coded much C I guess?
18:14:16 <Vorpal> Anyway. C can't. C has no concept of directories even! But most operating systems can
18:14:20 <hppavilion[1]> I could /probably/ figure out how to implement a linked list in about half an hour xD
18:14:42 <Vorpal> So basically C on POSIX and C on Windows can both load dynamic libraries
18:14:51 <Vorpal> In completely different ways
18:15:12 <Vorpal> Well, not completely. But windows does it weirdly.
18:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> Or is it POSIX that does it weirdly? Duhn duhn DUHN!
18:15:34 <Vorpal> What with the separate heaps and what not
18:15:49 <Vorpal> POSIX doesn't create a heap per .dll/.so like windows does
18:16:14 <hppavilion[1]> They're trees where a child is always less data than a parent, correct?
18:16:14 <Vorpal> As opposed to not getting the stack?
18:16:21 <Vorpal> No that is a different heap
18:16:34 <Vorpal> heap in this context is where you do dynamic allocations
18:16:39 <Vorpal> that are not on the stack
18:17:38 <Vorpal> You have quite a bit to learn about the low level programming parts. Manual memory management will be a shock to you.
18:18:19 <Vorpal> And of course, the compiler just assuming you know what you do when you access data outside what you allocated. That is always fun too
18:18:53 <hppavilion[1]> I understand the fact that C has manual memory management xD
18:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> I've read about C, and done a tiny bit of code, but never actually done a large project
18:19:19 <hppavilion[1]> If I do any C, it'll probably actually just be C++
18:19:21 <Vorpal> I'm currently trying to come up with a way to neatly handle recursion limiting in k when fuzz testing this funge interpreter. I don't think there is a way to do it non-messily. Hm
18:19:46 <Vorpal> To many #ifdefs everywhere...
18:20:08 <hppavilion[1]> Why is there no do...for loop? Wait, no, stupid question.
18:20:46 <Vorpal> do while loops exist, but apparently not in python
18:20:55 <Vorpal> I was looking for one earlier today
18:21:17 <Vorpal> I ended up doing a while True: ... if condition: break
18:21:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44465 * Timwi * (+11068) '''Espro''' (short for ''Esperanta Programado'') is an unfinished idea for a programming language that uses [[w:Esperanto|]] inflection and grammar.
18:21:34 <hppavilion[1]> There are no curly brackets in python, unless you specifically request them from __future__
18:21:48 <Vorpal> That is a joke in future iirc
18:22:20 <myname> i'd like lojban instead of esperanto more. on the other hand, making lojban into,a programming language would probably end up in prolog
18:22:34 <hppavilion[1]> It still doesn't sit right, and Python /probably/ should support that
18:22:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44466&oldid=44465 * Timwi * (-33)
18:22:49 <hppavilion[1]> Why don't we submit a PEP and request do:...while?
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18:23:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44467&oldid=44466 * Timwi * (+8)
18:23:09 <hppavilion[1]> with var as value: code is an interesting construct
18:23:27 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], well, iirc C# has something similar
18:23:41 <Vorpal> But it has been like 5+ years since I wrote any C#
18:23:41 <myname> hppavilion[1]: you cannot put the while in the same column as the : as it would end the block alltogether
18:24:14 <myname> if the python folks couldn't even make switch happrn, they will not make do while happen
18:24:16 <Vorpal> myname, still a "one iteration, then check" syntax would be useful
18:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> It would end the block, but if it's a do block it'd make sure it is followed by a while()
18:24:43 <Vorpal> myname, maybe: while-after condition: code
18:24:59 <hppavilion[1]> I like python because you can declare variables inside blocks. Until I thought about it, I wondered how this code would work in C:
18:25:07 <Vorpal> myname, come on, switch would be easy, syntax-wise
18:25:40 <hppavilion[1]> Switch would be easy in syntax AND it wouldn't look completely awful
18:25:57 <Vorpal> Though you should really do switch like erlang
18:26:01 <myname> Vorpal: it would, but they cried about how 2 columns are way too much
18:26:10 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: Except in python, case <val> could have <val> be a variable
18:26:22 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], don't see an issue with that
18:26:33 <myname> hppavilion[1]: it's easy in c. void pointer :p
18:26:37 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], it is just a glorified if-elif-else really
18:26:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44468&oldid=44467 * Timwi * (+240) /* Types */
18:27:30 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1],"if(cond){int var;} else {long var;}", what about it?
18:27:32 <hppavilion[1]> myname: Perhaps they could add an optional "end" keyword after blocks of code and call it a non-special case, so they could validate Vorpal's do...while syntax. Then again, that'd prevent us from making end a var...
18:27:37 <Vorpal> those are two different var
18:28:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44469&oldid=44468 * Timwi * (-21) /* Types */
18:28:07 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I know, I said that until I remembered that C had scopes like that, I wondered about that
18:28:10 <Vorpal> myname, how does a void pointer help?
18:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44470&oldid=44469 * Timwi * (+4) /* Statements */
18:28:29 <myname> you just assign whatever you want to var
18:28:42 <myname> still, there is really no need for that
18:29:28 <Vorpal> I find python's scoping annoying.
18:29:38 <Vorpal> Why doesn't each block introduce a new scope
18:29:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44471&oldid=44470 * Timwi * (+98) /* Statements */
18:29:41 <Vorpal> it makes a lot more sense
18:29:49 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I like it. Not having to declare variables is nice
18:29:49 <Vorpal> And leads to easier to follow code
18:29:55 <Vorpal> well that I'm okay with
18:30:03 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, perl's undef default is just taking it too far
18:30:16 <Vorpal> But if you define a non-existing variable inside a block it shouldn't escape to outside that block
18:30:29 <Vorpal> That is after all how functions work
18:30:32 <myname> can you actually say "i find sth annoying" in english?
18:30:40 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: But there's no curly bracket at the end to catch it when it leaves, just whitespace xD
18:30:40 <Vorpal> So why should sub-function blocks work differently
18:30:45 <Vorpal> myname, no idea, I'm a Swede
18:31:00 <myname> it'd be oerfextly fine in german, too
18:31:09 <myname> i am unsure in englidh, though
18:31:27 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], short for "something"
18:31:36 <Vorpal> Nobody says "iirc" either, they spell it out
18:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> BUt you can definitely say "I find something annoying" in english, at least grammar-wise.
18:32:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44472&oldid=44471 * Timwi * (+3) /* Statements */
18:32:25 <hppavilion[1]> You /might/ get a few funny looks, but it isn't an invalid sentence
18:33:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44473&oldid=44472 * Timwi * (+0) /* Expressions */
18:33:38 <myname> i'd say "i think sth is annoying" to work around
18:33:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44474&oldid=44473 * Timwi * (-1) /* Expressions */
18:34:03 <hppavilion[1]> You still are being a bit vague, but that's still valid.
18:34:47 <hppavilion[1]> You can say "I find sth annoying", but it isn't very clear what you're talking about, unless context /makes/ it clear
18:36:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44475&oldid=44474 * Timwi * (+0) /* Expressions */
18:36:54 <hppavilion[1]> Should I modify my λ-calculuator's syntax so that {...} is always a name?
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18:45:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44476&oldid=44475 * Timwi * (+717) /* Properties */ Indexers
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18:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44477&oldid=44476 * Timwi * (+131) /* Example */
18:47:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inflection]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44478&oldid=11908 * Timwi * (+105) [[Espo]]
18:48:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inflection]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44479&oldid=44478 * Timwi * (+1) oops
18:48:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inflection]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44480&oldid=44479 * Timwi * (+10)
18:48:30 <oerjan> myname: i find your lack of grammar disturbing
18:49:37 <myname> correct me whereever you can
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18:51:50 * oerjan notices a strong wind blowing
18:52:18 <oerjan> myname: i believe you missed the ironic reference hth
18:52:55 <myname> so, is "i find" really a thing?
18:53:09 <myname> it always looks like a false friend to me
18:53:13 <oerjan> if darth vader can say it, do you really dare to protest?
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18:53:31 <myname> i don't know if darth vader says it
18:53:51 <oerjan> "i find your lack of faith disturbing" is the exact quote.
18:53:51 <gamemanj> I find that finding things is an entertaining time-waster.
18:54:13 <myname> i learned not that far ago that germany is actually one of the few nations that synchronize practically everything in tv and cinemas
18:54:16 <gamemanj> (Exceptions: If they're important things. Then they're a frustrating time-waster.)
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18:54:33 <Vorpal> oerjan, any idea what filmjölk is in English btw?
18:54:43 <Vorpal> Just "sour milk" doesn't seem specific enough
18:54:57 <oerjan> myname: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zzs-OvfG8tE
18:55:02 <Vorpal> yoghurt is pretty much sour milk too
18:55:16 <myname> i discussed with someone from norway who said that germans are sp
18:55:22 <myname> are horrible at englidh
18:55:55 <myname> at that point i learned that english movies and series are only subtitled there
18:56:12 <myname> which he thought leads to a better understanding of the english language
18:56:38 <Vorpal> myname, same in Sweden, only subtitling
18:56:51 <Vorpal> Unless it is a kids movies for ages that are not expected to be able to read
18:57:30 <myname> never thought about it
18:58:37 <myname> it was a natural thing to me that shows on tv are in german
19:00:49 <oerjan> Vorpal: i'm pretty sure no one has any idea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filmj%C3%B6lk#In_English
19:01:18 <hppavilion[1]> I added an option in my λ-calculuator to use ≡ instead of =
19:02:39 <FireFly> myname: I think that helped me a lot. Another thing is that games typically aren't translated at all, so if you want to enjoy video games with dialogue, you're kinda forced to learn English
19:02:46 <hppavilion[1]> I should /probably/ actually make it start doing λ-calculus.
19:03:01 <Vorpal> oerjan, I just wanted to translate a recipe that uses it to an English person I know
19:03:14 <Vorpal> oerjan, also filmjölk tastes awesome
19:03:35 * oerjan avoids sour dairy like the plague.
19:03:51 <oerjan> with a few exceptions for sour cream
19:03:55 <Vorpal> oerjan, why? yoghurt I can understand
19:03:57 <olsner> I think filmjölk has slightly different cultures from other similar things, so it should probably be called filmjölk
19:04:17 <Vorpal> olsner, well technically I love A-fil, as opposed to the other types. I like that taste best
19:04:23 <Phantom_Hoover> Vorpal, after 30 seconds on wikipedia i can tell you that there's no english equivalent
19:04:35 <FireFly> According to the wikipedia article linked above, cultured buttermilk apparently acts as a substitute for filmjölk in recipes
19:04:36 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, fair enough. You should import it and try it though
19:04:53 <FireFly> so you might just write that instead
19:04:59 <Vorpal> Never heard of that before. What exactly is buttermilk anyway?
19:05:04 <oerjan> Vorpal: well the section suggests a substitute
19:05:38 * oerjan swats FireFly for stealing his words while he was checking them
19:05:45 <olsner> buttermilk might be, like, kärnmjölk
19:06:08 <Vorpal> I don't think I ever seen kärnmjölk in Sweden in a shop. I heard the word yes, but that is about it
19:06:20 * oerjan does it again properly -----###
19:06:26 <Vorpal> "Kärnmjölk ingår inte längre i svenska livsmedelsaffärernas vanliga sortiment. Norrmejerier upphörde som sista större svenska mejeri att saluföra kärnmjölk till privatpersoner i början av 2000-talet. Idag går den större delen av kärnmjölk som produceras i Sverige till bagerierna."
19:06:37 <Vorpal> So it is no longer common in Sweden
19:06:47 <FireFly> I guess we use filmjölk as a substitute for buttermilk in recipes, then :P
19:06:52 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, is buttermilk something that can be easily found in UK?
19:07:15 <Vorpal> Phantom_Hoover, right, here it is impossible to find in normal shops apparently
19:10:07 <hppavilion[1]> I am bored of my λ-calculator for now. I will finish it later.
19:11:54 <Vorpal> That would be good. Finally someone getting around to that
19:12:38 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: I mean finish λ-calculus. That's different.
19:13:04 <hppavilion[1]> I wouldn't do everything IN λ-calculus, I would just make the interpreter complete enough for my liking xD
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19:14:19 <hppavilion[1]> Combinatory Logic kind of got rolled into λ-calculus.
19:15:15 <hppavilion[1]> (because you can define SK in λ-calculus easily, and the syntax is then the same, so...)
19:15:54 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], learn haskell next?
19:16:03 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: So what do you think? Set theory? Or is there some other really cool and somewhat simple to emulate mathematical system LIKE λ-calculus or SK?
19:16:48 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], I have no idea, I'm more of a low level programmer. Heck I do C/C++ real time system programming for a living.
19:18:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44481&oldid=44477 * Timwi * (+3) /* Types */
19:19:13 <hppavilion[1]> "I do C/C++ real time system programming for a living." just sounded impressive
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19:20:04 <Vorpal> myname, thanks. C++ is a mess :P
19:20:14 <Vorpal> myname, but real time programming is fun
19:20:15 <myname> c++ is the least funny thing i can imagine
19:21:02 <Vorpal> myname, making big 200 metric ton machines move around and autonomously drill holes for blasting has a certain hard to match quality :)
19:21:16 <Vorpal> myname, which is my job :)
19:22:57 <Vorpal> myname, anyway when doing hard real time programming there aren't a lot of alternatives. There is Ada, Real time java, C and C++. And sure someone has made a proof of concept in haskell and a few other languages. But nothing that is production readyu
19:25:10 <Vorpal> Hm I wonder how real time java gets around having a garbage collector?
19:25:20 <myname> Vorpal: sounds a lot like fpga programming to me
19:25:42 <myname> interesting field where you can do lots of things in theory
19:25:43 <Vorpal> myname, ugh, thank god it isn't that. I have done some VHDL at university. It was... interesting.
19:25:52 <hppavilion[1]> (Specifically, te fact that any program can be represented by a number of ιs)
19:25:52 <Vorpal> But that is very different
19:25:59 <myname> and in practice you have to do vhdl
19:26:07 <Vorpal> myname, the stuff I do still run on normal x86 and ARM systems
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19:26:57 <myname> i hate vhdl with passion, even though i have not wrote a line in it
19:26:59 <Vorpal> Industrial computers sure, with good control over BIOS and so on (you can't have BIOS suddenly running and blocking your code if you are doing hard real time after all!), but still not an FPGA
19:27:09 <Vorpal> myname, why? Prefer verilog? Never tried that
19:27:31 <oerjan> ais523 is the fpga guy around here
19:27:34 <myname> i'd love something haskellish
19:28:15 <int-e> Vorpal: they don't, they interleave the garbage collector and mutator. http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/library/j-rtj4/ was the first thing google found for me, looks relevant and neat
19:28:21 <fizzie> We had someone doing audio processing stuff on FPGAs visiting the university once.
19:28:56 <fizzie> I don't think that's very popular; it's usually just software on general-purpose CPUs, or software on DSPs if you want to get fancy.
19:28:59 <myname> i'd love to build my own cpu with dpgas, but sadly i'd never use them
19:29:11 <hppavilion[1]> We can represent ANY program in Turing-space as a string of 1s and 0s, where 1 is the iota combinator and ` is a grouper (`)
19:29:22 <fizzie> I think they had some interesting algorithms that were very fpga-friendly.
19:31:51 <hppavilion[1]> Seriously. No one? A way to represent programs in terms of bits?
19:32:10 <hppavilion[1]> Certainly a step up (or down) from character-by-character
19:33:27 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um https://esolangs.org/wiki/Iota
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19:34:03 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose I can't have been the first one to come up with it xD
19:34:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44482&oldid=44481 * Timwi * (+1441)
19:34:42 <oerjan> i thought that's what you were talking about until you started reinventing pieces of it
19:35:00 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: are you aware of tromp's binary lambda calculus (and earlier, combinatory logic) https://tromp.github.io/cl/cl.html ?
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19:35:22 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well that's pretty trivial
19:35:43 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Of course, but I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned before xD
19:35:51 <Vorpal> int-e, that is a really interesting page to me
19:36:42 * int-e is ten years behind on the subject (real time, real time GC) or so.
19:36:56 <Vorpal> int-e, it has an interesting approach to memory fragmentation
19:37:17 <Vorpal> int-e, read the section of arraylets, I never seen that approach before
19:38:20 <int-e> hmm, so obvious (in retrospect, of course)
19:39:42 <int-e> And I guess it's a real time thing; the extra indirection *will* hurt performance, but you don't care so much about that as long as response times keep within their limits.
19:40:09 <Vorpal> int-e, consistency is always more important than raw performance
19:40:47 <Vorpal> int-e, also using a real time system is rather nice. The GUI just runs beautifully after startup finished. Never pausing or lagging.
19:41:02 <Vorpal> (In the system I run on, startup is not real time)
19:42:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44483&oldid=44482 * Timwi * (+832)
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19:49:06 <Vorpal> int-e, I still wouldn't want to use real time java myself
19:50:24 <Vorpal> int-e, I think using reference counting is a much better approach. And it has better performance. Combined with the right allocator (perhaps memory pools) you can still ensure properties reasonable for a real time system. Though of course, you will have to be careful of cycles
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19:53:40 <int-e> I'm not sure. Reference counting has worse performance when there are many references passed around and a lot of garbage produced... however... that's likely not the case with real-time applications, especially when the developers are careful.
19:54:20 <int-e> (for me, "Java" would be the thing that turns me away rather than the GC ;-) )
19:54:36 <b_jonas> didn't you get that backwards?
19:54:58 <Vorpal> int-e, We use a lot of reference counting at work for stuff like messages between threads (both point to point and broadcast events). But you have to ensure that the number of objects reachable from such an event is fairly small. Don't do a long linked list using reference counting for example
19:55:12 <Vorpal> Just do a single structure, perhaps pointing to one or two other allocations
19:55:44 <int-e> Oh, DOpE is still a thing, nice.
19:56:10 <Vorpal> it certainly sounds dope of course
19:56:17 <int-e> now commercial, apparently. http://www.genode-labs.com/products/graphical-user-interfaces?lang=en
19:56:41 <int-e> Vorpal: you spoke of real-time GUIs and that reminded me of this.
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19:57:15 <int-e> (well, technically you didn't, you spoke of a real-time system with a gui)
19:57:21 <Vorpal> int-e, oh yeah, we actually run the GUI as a non-realtime thread
19:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44484&oldid=44483 * Timwi * (+1412)
19:57:34 <Vorpal> Though it still runs smooth thanks to the rest of the system being real time
19:58:01 <Vorpal> int-e, lets just say that there is no way we would run QT as anything other than a non-realtime thread
19:58:23 <Vorpal> not that it doesn't run smooth, but it would be way too complicated to show it behaves properly
19:58:45 <int-e> I wouldn't know where to start
19:59:12 <Vorpal> int-e, that is a key aspect of practical real time programming: Figuring out which parts actually need to be real time
19:59:21 <Vorpal> And try to keep those parts to a minimum
20:01:30 <Vorpal> that page int-e: "Scout demonstrates that a useful and graphically appealing graphical applications can be realized at low source-code complexity."
20:01:35 <int-e> The motivation for DoPE, as I recall, was having several animations (video and the like) run concurrently, smoothly... which at the time the project was started (about 10 years ago, I think) was not yet solved by just having over-powerful hardware.
20:01:40 <Vorpal> I beg to differ on the second point
20:02:01 <Vorpal> It looks like a bastard of the 90s and E17
20:02:56 <int-e> Oh the main guy there is (or was) an Atari demo coder.
20:02:58 <Vorpal> int-e, we use hardware acceleration for decoding video from cameras on the machine (kind of useful to show when you are driving them remote from a control room)
20:03:32 <int-e> Anyway, I'm mostly reminiscing.
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20:12:41 <hppavilion[1]> 0 is the successor function (but with two arguments)
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21:41:18 <ais523> shachaf: ooh, I was hoping that's what they'd say
21:42:00 <ais523> can you forward me the email?
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21:50:18 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making /another/ program, this one called Junction, for fun.
21:50:32 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically a simple programming language and a bunch of APIs thrown together
21:53:48 <hppavilion[1]> So you can make it read Skype messages (Skype API) and speak them (OS-specific speech API) in German (google translate API)
21:55:00 <hppavilion[1]> (Yes, I've used If-this-then-that, and this is inspired as a FOSS desktop version of it)
21:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> (This one is more for developers than for everyday users)
22:05:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44485&oldid=44484 * Timwi * (+429)
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22:05:29 <shachaf> ais523: I don't think I have your email address.
22:06:10 <ais523> shachaf: ais523@bham.ac.uk (that one might not work much longer but it works right now)
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22:11:39 <ais523> shachaf: OK, let me just check my filesystem and try to find the right version of the thesis
22:12:00 <ais523> (although I guess you don't particularly care which specific version it is, it's probably best to find one with typos, errors, etc., corrected)
22:15:07 <shachaf> Not sure how soon I'll be able to look at it, though.
22:17:58 <fizzie> Or is that, too, a secret?
22:19:04 <shachaf> ais523: section 2.1 should probably say "finite subsets" hth
22:19:21 <shachaf> I guess you're past the point where that sort of thing is helpful, though.
22:19:42 <shachaf> fizzie: Not sure what I'm allowed to say.
22:20:57 <Taneb> Does GHC's RankNTypes work for infinite N?
22:21:13 <shachaf> GHC doesn't support infinite types.
22:21:55 <shachaf> Is there a name for a thing which is like a multiset but can have a negative number of elements?
22:22:01 <ais523> the number of pages isn't a secret
22:22:06 <shachaf> A better name than "free abelian group" or "free Z-module".
22:22:19 <shachaf> I was using that thing recently, anyway.
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22:24:41 <fizzie> I don't know about a mathy name, but: "This package provides an efficient implementation of so-called signed multisets (also known as hybrid sets or shadow sets), which generalise multisets by allowing for negative membership."
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22:24:56 <fizzie> I've never heard of any of those names, and shadow sets seems to be Dark Souls terminology.
22:25:06 <fizzie> While the hybrid set search is just full of golf clubs.
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22:31:24 <hppavilion[1]> So does anyone have any ideas for particularly useful APIs I could integrate into my APIzer?
22:33:39 <shachaf> But "free Z-module" is shorter than "signed multiset".
22:35:30 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, I'm even thanked in this thesis.
22:36:46 <fizzie> "free Z-module!" is what they chant on the streets, to protest against the inhumane treatment of Z-module.
22:38:33 <fizzie> I didn't include the preface with thanks in the version I sent today, because apparently you're supposed to thank the preliminary examiners, and it's not usual to thank them in advance.
22:38:45 <fizzie> AIUI, that's also why there are no thanks for the opponent in the printed version.
22:39:13 <ais523> fizzie: what thesis defence method's used in the country you're thinking of there (presumably Finland)?
22:40:52 <fizzie> ais523: Finland. There's a "public examination", where you give a understandable-to-a-layperson half-an-hour lecture, and then the (usually singular, sometimes dual) opponent asks questions for, on average, two hours.
22:41:49 <shachaf> do they even have snakes in finland?
22:41:57 <fizzie> The audience may also ask questions, or announce that they are going to leave a written note, which they then have a week to do.
22:42:02 <fizzie> Except that nobody ever does.
22:42:13 <fizzie> It's kind of like that question they ask in weddings.
22:42:14 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, that's very different from the UK
22:42:25 <ais523> (the public exam, that is, not the weddings)
22:42:26 <fizzie> (Not the "do you" one, the "does anyone object" one.)
22:42:45 <fizzie> I haven't heard of anyone failing the defence, although I understand it is still possible.
22:43:03 <fizzie> Normally, though, if it's actually your own work and you've passed the preliminary examination, it shouldn't happen.
22:43:27 <ais523> the UK system is: first your university finds two examiners qualified to understand and assess your thesis (this often takes months, because PhDs can be very specific and the one or two other researchers in the field might be busy)
22:43:50 <fizzie> That sounds approximate to our "preliminary examiners", of which there also two.
22:43:54 <ais523> then you send them copies of the thesis to look through, and they write a preliminary report on what the thesis is like
22:44:22 <fizzie> Yes. In Finland they have 8 weeks to prepare their reports.
22:44:32 <ais523> after that, a meeting is arranged with the examiners, and they're allowed to ask you any questions they want, to try to clarify things they didn't understand and ensure you know what you're talking about
22:44:38 <ais523> and ask you "did you consider X", and the like
22:45:43 <ais523> the examiners then get to make one of these recommendations: accept the thesis as-is (this basically never happens); accept the thesis after making minor corrections; accept the thesis after making major corrections; reject the thesis and allow resubmission of a revised version; reject the thesis outright
22:46:01 <ais523> (plus a few others along the lines of "this isn't worthy of a PhD, but is worth a master's degree")
22:46:19 <ais523> minor and major corrections are the most common; they give a list of corrections they want to see
22:46:36 <ais523> which is anything from typo corrections, to asking you to redo a proof or perhaps even write a new chapter
22:46:37 <fizzie> That too is pretty much the same, although the details of the allowed responses vary.
22:46:51 <ais523> minor corrections are those which don't require new research
22:47:04 <fizzie> And also I think we expect just a statement from the examiners, and it's the Doctoral Programme Committee which makes the decision, based on the statements.
22:47:18 <ais523> (also reject and resubmit can only be given once against any given student, after that you either have to accept or reject outright)
22:47:38 <fizzie> Sounds much like a journal submission.
22:47:44 <ais523> at least in my case, what happened is that the examiners made lists of corrections before the exam
22:48:39 <ais523> and then in the meeting, a major part was running through all the potentially controversial corrections and asking me to either defend what was literally written there or agree with them that it was wrong
22:49:14 <fizzie> So far it sounds quite similar, except we don't have a meeting between the student and the pre-examiners. Although you get to prepare a written response before the Committee makes their decisions.
22:49:25 <ais523> the meeting is a pretty big part of it here
22:49:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44486&oldid=44485 * Timwi * (+563)
22:50:02 <fizzie> As an aside, here's something that kind of implies how rare it is to get rejected at the defence stage:
22:50:06 <fizzie> [[ As formal decisions on the doctoral dissertation are not made until the conclusion of the public examination, invitations to the post-doctoral party were traditionally not sent in advance. In the past, the doctoral candidate contacted the Opponent before the public examination to enquire whether the doctoral candidate could make dinner arrangements, and after obtaining a positive response, ...
22:50:11 <ais523> basically, I think it has three purposes: a) check for plagiarism by ensuring the student understands their work; b) work out if something wrong is the result of a fundamental or superficial problem; c) allow the student to fix mistakes made by the examiners
22:50:12 <fizzie> ... the candidate "hinted" at the successful outcome to the guests to be invited. Nowadays, however, doctoral candidates send invitations in advance. Permission to defend the dissertation in a public examination, given by the Doctoral Programme Committee, is sufficient indication of the quality of the dissertation. ]]
22:52:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44487&oldid=44464 * Int-e * (+243) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ not our bug (tm)
22:52:24 <ais523> I guess the system's actually quite different then
22:52:58 <ais523> because the meeting with the examiners is one of the most important parts in the UK, and the result is often in flux before it happens
22:53:58 <fizzie> I don't think we have an explicit plagiarism check until the public examination. I guess it hasn't really been much of a problem. As for b and c, three of the five possible decisions the Committee can make involve sending the revised manuscript back to the examiners to check that they accept the corrections.
22:54:07 <int-e> the capital I annoys me.
22:54:11 <fizzie> (And you get to defend your choices in writing, if you like.)
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22:54:42 <HackEgo> _denis_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:57:32 <fizzie> Quite a lot of places seem to have a 5-6 person panel doing the live interrogation part.
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23:00:57 <tswett> Man... that disjoint-set forest algorithm.
23:01:31 <int-e> love it, except when coding Haskell
23:03:51 <tswett> Just use that other Haskell.
23:04:29 <tswett> The one that lets you do stuff like that.
23:04:33 <HackEgo> Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
23:04:56 <int-e> maybe I should do that
23:06:01 <tswett> Now, what's Haskell as designed by the makers of C++? That'd probably be LISP.
23:13:27 <tswett> FireFly: the one described here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disjoint-set_data_structure#Disjoint-set_forests
23:19:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44488&oldid=44486 * Timwi * (+3408)
23:19:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44489&oldid=44488 * Timwi * (+14)
23:19:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44490&oldid=44489 * Timwi * (+28)
23:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44491&oldid=44490 * Timwi * (+1) /* Properties and Indexers / Ecoj kaj Indeksiloj */
23:24:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44492&oldid=44491 * Timwi * (+2)
23:25:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44493&oldid=44492 * Timwi * (-6) /* Properties and Indexers / Ecoj kaj Indeksiloj */
23:26:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44494&oldid=44493 * Timwi * (+51) /* Example / Ekzemplo */
23:27:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44495&oldid=44494 * Timwi * (+72) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:29:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44496&oldid=44495 * Timwi * (+139) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
23:30:08 <\oren\> today's news: trump trumpets trumped-up tax cuts!
23:32:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44497&oldid=44496 * Timwi * (+170) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
23:33:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44498&oldid=44497 * Timwi * (+61) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
23:35:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44499&oldid=44498 * Timwi * (+46) /* Example / Ekzemplo */
23:35:29 <\oren\> (I don't actually care about american politics but i just wanted to say that)
23:37:35 <tswett> You know what's better than tax cuts?
23:41:00 <shachaf> read my lips: no new tuxes
23:43:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44500&oldid=44499 * Timwi * (+826) /* Example / Ekzemplo */ Binary search
23:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44501&oldid=44500 * Timwi * (-13)
23:45:06 <ais523> so is Trump still looking like potentially a serious candidate, then?
23:45:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44502&oldid=44501 * Timwi * (-1)
23:45:16 <ais523> I sort-of assumed that he'd have given up by now
23:53:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44503&oldid=44502 * Timwi * (+0) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:54:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44504&oldid=44503 * Timwi * (-1) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:55:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44505&oldid=44504 * Timwi * (+7) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:58:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44506&oldid=44505 * Timwi * (+4) /* Types / Tipoj */
23:59:49 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: I'm a member of the opposing Grand fungot Pary
23:59:50 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: foxfire says: re: fnord?? 6"
00:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44507&oldid=44506 * Timwi * (+0)
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00:14:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44508&oldid=44507 * Timwi * (+29) /* Examples / Ekzemploj */
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00:25:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44509&oldid=44508 * Timwi * (+162) some categories // kelkaj kategorioj
00:26:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44510&oldid=40574 * Timwi * (+65) [[Espro]]
00:26:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Works in progress]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44511&oldid=44510 * Timwi * (-65) Oh, sorry, didn’t notice the note about solo projects.
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00:32:28 <hppavilion[1]> TXT, MIDI, and PNG are the only ones I've seen so far
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00:51:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44512&oldid=44509 * Timwi * (+19)
00:52:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44513&oldid=44512 * Timwi * (+27)
01:12:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44514&oldid=44513 * Timwi * (+1) /* Types / Tipoj */ Oops! / Upse!
01:14:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44515&oldid=44514 * Timwi * (-1)
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01:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see a language designed with the goal of being the exact opposite of TC
01:19:05 <ais523> how would you define the opposite of TC, though?
01:19:15 <doesthiswork> hppavilion[1]: I have made a dozen evolution and ecology simulations as a hobby, do you want to collaborate?
01:19:58 <hppavilion[1]> doesthiswork: On a later project, perhaps, but this one is for a school project.
01:20:25 <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't know. Perhaps it has the power to decrease the computational class of /other/ things?
01:22:13 <doesthiswork> not anymore, my signing certificate is out of date and browsers obsolete
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01:25:58 <ais523> <hppavilion[1]> What weird formats could we encode languages in? <hppavilion[1]> ais523: I don't know. Perhaps it has the power to decrease the computational class of /other/ things?
01:26:12 <ais523> I saw those, went to the toilet (for unrelated reasons), and had an esolang idea by the time I was back at the computer
01:26:20 <ais523> time to make an article
01:26:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44516&oldid=44515 * Timwi * (+395) /* Types / Tipoj */
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01:27:44 <Sgeo> "PLEASE READ!!!
01:27:44 <Sgeo> Facebook will begin stealing your undergarments at midnight tonight if you don't copy & paste this message in the next hour, forward it to everyone in your mailing list, print a hard copy for your grandmother & call your third grade teacher. This is real. I got the message first hand from Elvis who was having lunch with Bigfoot, while riding the Loch Ness monster. It was even on the inside back cover of every tabloid in the grocery store
01:27:44 <Sgeo> checkout line. Not only will Facebook start charging you tomorrow, they are also going to bill your credit card for the past 3 years of services. Luckily, each person who copies & pastes this status will receive a FREE unicorn in the mail tomorrow. However, if you don't repost this status, Facebook code has been set up to automatically set your computer on fire & harm an innocent bunny in the forest! It's all true, it was on the news! It's
01:27:46 <Sgeo> official! Facebook users will believe anything their friends copy & paste into their status (Don't forget the hearts!! All good copy and pastes gotta have hearts if not maybe no unicorn!!)"
01:28:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44517&oldid=44516 * Timwi * (+242)
01:29:33 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: what's your Esolang username?
01:31:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44518&oldid=44517 * Timwi * (+284) /* Statements / Ordonoj */
01:35:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Timwi]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44519&oldid=35304 * Timwi * (+69)
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01:36:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44520&oldid=44154 * Timwi * (+0)
01:38:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44521&oldid=44520 * Timwi * (+0) /* Environment */
01:44:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mornington Crescent]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44522&oldid=44521 * Timwi * (-25) No longer output-only since the accumulator now starts with the value of STDIN
01:55:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[90]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44523 * Ais523 * (+3635) new language
01:55:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Ais523]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44524&oldid=44003 * Ais523 * (+8) +[[90]]
01:56:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44525&oldid=44399 * Ais523 * (+9) /* Non-alphabetic */ +[[90]]
01:56:35 <ais523> any opinions on http://esolangs.org/wiki/90 ?
01:57:01 <ais523> this is possibly my weirdest language ever, given that it violates my normal assumptions about what a programming language /is/
02:03:31 <ais523> also one of the least likely to be implemented, I guess, even though it's actually quite easy to implement
02:03:43 <ais523> and one highest up in the "if I'm going to test this, I'll use a VM" stakes
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02:20:22 <coppro> ais523: does a 90 program operate on itself?
02:20:36 <ais523> coppro: no, although two 90 programs operate on each other
02:21:02 <ais523> if it did operate on itself, the details of the compiler would have a large impact on the way the program behaved
02:21:08 <ais523> and thus would probably need to be specified
02:21:24 <ais523> (and one possibility would be to intentionally avoid generating patterns where possible)
02:21:37 <ais523> (so that it would be equivalent to the current case)
02:38:04 <Jafet> Unless you have lots of 1- or 2-byte patterns, it should be possible to avoid all patterns in the source
02:38:51 <Jafet> Actually no, there are things like syscall arguments, which can't be obfuscated
02:40:29 <Jafet> I'm a bit disappointed that this language wasn't invented by kmc
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02:41:54 <ais523> Jafet: why kmc in particular?
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02:49:44 <Jafet> Well, this is a language that can turn a system into a theme park of nopslides
02:51:54 <hppavilion[1]> One that revolves entirely around doing things with pi AND is TC
03:00:21 <hppavilion[1]> Someone should design languages named after /other/ circles of Hell
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03:28:08 <\oren\> dis and malbolge aren't circles of hell though
03:28:43 <\oren\> dis is a city in hell and malbolge is a series of pits
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06:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44526&oldid=44113 * Jabutosama * (+129)
06:59:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J-why]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44527&oldid=44526 * Jabutosama * (+73)
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07:44:49 <b_jonas> You know, the holy war about the one true version control system is worse in some ways than the holy wars about editors or linux-based desktop environments.
07:45:57 <ais523> the editor wars have mostly died down
07:46:05 <ais523> and the DE wars have gone into reverse, since a few years ago
07:46:19 <b_jonas> The problem is that a lot of free software history of the last decade is stored in version control repositories. Most of the time, you just have to take snapshots or releases out of these, or submit unified diffs to maintainers. But when you have to figure out the history of a really messed up bug, you need to be able to read the original version control repo,
07:46:20 <ais523> because people have gone from claiming a particular DE is the best, to trying to find any DE that doesn't suck
07:46:43 <b_jonas> and so you eventually may need to understand how seven or more major version control software works.
07:47:49 <b_jonas> And it's not really installing the version control software that's difficult, but understanding how they work and how to use them, because each of them have completely different ideas about what version history is about and what data is stored.
07:48:40 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, those are mostly wars of the past, though now I mostly have that problem with editors. When I have time (i.e. never), I should write my own editor and my own irc client (the two could share a little of their code).
07:49:15 <ais523> huh, there are still lots of editors I like
07:49:29 <ais523> although my main editor is Emacs, which isn't exactly easy to learn
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07:52:16 <b_jonas> "like", sure. but none of them is perfect, and there are changes that are impossible to add to an editor later.
07:52:59 <b_jonas> in particular, I use joe-editor often, and there are patches for it that make it better than the vanilla (eg. fix the longstanding bug that it often can't use the last column of the terminal), but there's one thing that's really hardwired and can't be changed without rewriting most of it:
07:53:16 <b_jonas> namely that it insists on displaying one line of the text file in one line of the screen only.
07:53:34 <b_jonas> Most editors can break a line of the text file to multiple screen lines, which is often useful.
07:54:27 <b_jonas> When you only want to fix minor things, such as the behavior of particular commands, or the keyboard layout, sure, you can do those in many editors.
07:54:52 <b_jonas> Part of the problem is also that I'm not sure what exactly I want from an editor, and I have to figure that out too.
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07:56:44 <b_jonas> In particular, I can't decide if I want an modeless editor, a moded editor (with a separate insert and normal mode like vim), or a hybrid.
07:57:22 <ais523> hmm, I just got a spam email offering to publish my thesis as a book, but I could tell it was spam from the fact that it had clearly been mail-merged and not written very well
07:57:43 <ais523> (then I decided to websearch the name of the company, and it confirmed my suspicions)
07:57:47 <b_jonas> So when I write the editor, I should probably try to make the best moded layout I can, and try to use it for a while, then decide if that's what I want.
07:57:58 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, academic spam?
07:58:04 <ais523> I "like" the fact that they tried to buy the rights to the thesis without even reading it
07:58:16 <ais523> (from shachaf's experience recently, I know that they haven't read it)
07:58:35 <ais523> (unless shachaf works for them, which I seriously doubt given the email contents)
07:59:32 <shachaf> my plan is to make a fortune selling illicit copies of ais523's thesis to the unsuspecting public *MWAHAHAHA*
07:59:53 <ais523> here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VDM_Publishing#Criticism
08:00:33 <shachaf> Oh, I may have seen some of their books.
08:00:46 <b_jonas> And the worst part of the version control war is the developers that don't make releases and insist that "the easiest way" to get their software or to get old versions is to use their favourite version control software and check out a snapshot (or tagged version) from their archive.
08:00:54 <shachaf> Or at least some people selling Wikipedia books on Amazon.
08:00:54 <ais523> shachaf: if that was your plan, you'd probably have asked me for permission as shachaf, rather than pretending to be a spammer
08:01:21 <b_jonas> They seem to think that the easiest way to get software is for you to speak all seven or more version control software.
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08:01:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44528&oldid=44487 * Rdebath * (+468) Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? --> TC demonstrated
08:01:36 <shachaf> ais523: which part of "illicit" was unclear
08:01:39 <b_jonas> Is it even possible for someone to know six or more of them? I think the knowledge may be mutually exclusive.
08:02:17 <olsner> b_jonas: I think it's not that hard to use whatever VCS to check out the software, especially if they have instructions
08:02:21 <ais523> shachaf: OK, put it a different way round: if you were going to illicitly publish copies of my thesis you probably wouldn't have asked for permission
08:02:28 <olsner> in particular, you don't really need to know it to do that
08:03:08 <ais523> b_jonas: let's see, I know git and darcs quite well, have used svn and rcs without real issues (rcs sucks but there's not much to learn), know the basics of hg, and sporadically work on the design of scapegoat
08:03:20 <b_jonas> olsner: yes, luckily if you just want to check it out, then it's generally not too hard. at least that's what you think until you realize that some versions of one of those seven version control system automatically executes on-checkout hooks on your client system when you checkout a version.
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08:03:36 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, rcs still exists?
08:03:51 <shachaf> ais523: without asking for permission, and not getting it, how can i guarantee that the copies are illicit?
08:04:17 <shachaf> posing as a spammer may be the best way to not get permission
08:04:17 <ais523> b_jonas: yes; basically because it's an executable that can be freely copied, nobody's suceeded in eradicating all copies from existence yet
08:04:52 <ais523> b_jonas: a VCS that executes checkout hooks stored in a remote repository on your local system contains a security bug
08:04:57 <Jafet> But by posing as a spammer, ais523 is almost certainly not going to reply, so you will not get denied permission
08:04:59 <ais523> and would likely be excluded from repos on that basis
08:05:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I know, that's the problem, once one of these version controls are used, they'll exist forever. that's the whole problem.
08:06:34 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, most people think so. but some people apparently think that the only thing you'd ever want to checkout with a vcs is software that you'd immediately compile and run with the same permissions on the same machine so it's not really a security bug, or something like that. it's crazy.
08:07:06 <ais523> b_jonas: hopefully distro package maintainers aren't those people
08:07:55 <b_jonas> I think they fixed that in later versions of that vcs or something. I hope.
08:08:13 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure which vcs it was. I should try to find it out.
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08:11:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44529&oldid=44528 * Rdebath * (+364) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */
08:11:52 <b_jonas> I think it was darcs that executed such commands on a darcs get
08:12:37 <ais523> --prompt-posthook prompt before running posthook [DEFAULT]
08:12:45 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if the --prompt-posthook can be overriden by the repo itself?
08:12:56 <ais523> if not, it's not actually a bug (although it is a bit dubious UI-wise)
08:13:19 <b_jonas> there's also --no-posthook, but the question is, is that the default with newer versions of darcs?
08:13:58 <ais523> --prompt-posthook is the default in my currently installed version (that's what my paste was about)
08:15:08 <b_jonas> how does it prompt? (as you know, I really prefer prefix switches over unexpected prompts ui-wise)
08:15:22 <b_jonas> I hope it doesn't just, like, say "press enter to run posthook" or something
08:16:05 <b_jonas> or even print "posthook? " to mimic a password prompt, but with the terminal echo on.
08:16:37 <b_jonas> btw, password prompts should really tell more than just "password: "
08:16:45 <ais523> it's probably a yn prompt
08:16:46 <b_jonas> most do, but some software is still stupid
08:16:56 <ais523> also darcs prompts a lot, so you're already in yn prompt mode at that point
08:17:02 <ais523> the docs don't imply that hooks can be copied between repos
08:18:00 <b_jonas> I can't even find much info about this darcs-get thing. maybe it never really existed, just some people who preferred another vcs has accidentally made the info up when he didn't understand darcs.
08:18:09 <b_jonas> (some mercurial people probably)
08:20:16 <ais523> b_jonas: so I tested: a) there doesn't seem to be any prompt about the posthook by default (contrary to the docs), but b) cloning/pulling from a repo doesn't copy hooks at all
08:20:29 <ais523> so there's no security issue there
08:20:50 <b_jonas> ok, it's probably some mercurial guys that made that problem up then
08:21:37 <ais523> there is a warning in the docs that you should never create a hook that runs files in the repo itself
08:21:46 <ais523> which is a generally applicable rule, not darcs-specific
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08:21:54 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, that makes sense
08:21:55 <ais523> and that's actually a good point, I should probably fix that in NH4
08:22:08 <ais523> actually I don't think I am
08:22:52 <b_jonas> and in an access-controlled central repo, be VERY careful if you want to store the files defining permissions or authentication inside the repo
08:22:53 <ais523> ah yes, the script in the repo gets /copied/ to the hook dir, and then isn't referenced thereafter
08:23:05 <ais523> b_jonas: people do that?
08:23:14 <b_jonas> ais523: rarely, but some do
08:24:49 <b_jonas> I think it might be the same people that put the file containing the administrator password of a web-based something system (possibly also reused as THE password for everything in house) to a file that's remotely accessible under over http with a predictable name;
08:25:14 <b_jonas> or the ones who put database server hostnames and passwords into the source files they upload to github.
08:25:54 <b_jonas> In theory it's possible to do safely, if you use the same access control files to make sure those files can't be accessed through the vcs server, but it's a bad idae.
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08:27:53 <ais523> b_jonas: it's still dangerous in that it gives anyone with the rights to write to the repo the rights to do anything with the repo
08:28:41 <b_jonas> ais523: no, this is for repos that are per-path access controlled
08:29:07 <b_jonas> so you give access to people to write only some paths and read only some paths
08:29:23 <b_jonas> it's rarely useful, but some people want some things
08:33:07 <fizzie> svn has that thing for the servers, but I don't think I've heard of anyone putting the ACLs inside. Still, I don't doubt it isn't done.
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08:34:49 <fizzie> There's a long are-you-sure section about the path-based access control in the SVN book
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08:37:07 <b_jonas> "don't doubt it isn't done" hehehe
08:37:55 <fizzie> There were too many negatives for me to survive through writing that.
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08:48:21 <b_jonas> incidentally, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_version_control_software is a huge table giving a lot of info
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09:43:05 <lambdabot> ENVA 290920Z 07004KT 020V130 CAVOK 14/08 Q1029 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 16009KT
09:50:16 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> But "free Z-module" is shorter than "signed multiset". <-- i think the former is a set of the latter hth
09:59:18 <b_jonas> argh, program randomly crashes sometimes
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10:02:14 <oerjan> better than randomly crashing always hth
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10:54:33 <b_jonas> stupid question. is there any compiler (C or other language) where as an optimization you can give hints (in eg. function attributes) that two functions are linked so that if you want to compute the result of both on the same input arguments then it's faster to call a third function that computes the result of both? eg. you'd declare a function that computes both sin and cos, or sinh and cosh.
10:55:36 <b_jonas> for the more difficult version, the same but for objects that point to heap-allocated data that changes its values, such as bigints or bignums, where you'd use it for bigint quo-rem, div-mod, sin-cos, sinh-cosh
10:56:31 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe I should ask this on Haskell
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11:09:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44530&oldid=44529 * Int-e * (+420) /* Would BF still be TC with do-while loops? */ what a coincidence
11:12:41 <int-e> b_jonas: I'm tempted to say that using quotRem constitutes such a hint... but it's very unsubtle.
11:13:00 <b_jonas> int-e: well sure, you can call the combined function explicitly
11:14:15 <b_jonas> and *fixint* quotient and remainder (and possibly also for machine float sin-cos and sinh-cosh) often want to be compiler intrinsics again where the compiler performs both this optimization and often other specific optimizations.
11:14:38 <b_jonas> but I wonder if there's a compiler that can automatically do this transformation for user-defined functions
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11:16:45 <b_jonas> In particular, you can certainly call mpfr_sin_cos or mpfr_sinh_cosh explicitly on libmpfr bignums
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12:10:36 <fungot> int-e: lli' fnord nkith ni fnord jonkun. two semicolons work much better.
12:10:53 <int-e> well, that could have gone better
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12:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GolfScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44531&oldid=43913 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) /* External resources */
12:32:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44532 * 160.85.232.142 * (+110) Created page with "Golfing languages are languages specifically designed for [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_golf| Codegolf]."
12:36:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Golfing language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44533&oldid=44532 * Ais523 * (-18) fix broken link syntax; also, IP, you probably shouldn't be creating new categories without discussion
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12:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44534&oldid=43161 * 160.85.232.142 * (+29) /* External resources */ +cat: golfing language
12:39:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44535&oldid=44534 * 160.85.232.142 * (+1) /* External resources */ ! missing closing bracket.
12:41:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44536&oldid=43813 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) + cat:golfing language
12:41:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Burlesque]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44537&oldid=44133 * 160.85.232.142 * (+30) /* Links */ + cat:golfing language
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12:51:30 <mroman_> ais523: pardon. I'm guilty of that @creating category
12:51:59 <mroman_> I've actually even added a link from Wikipedia to that category.
12:52:00 <ais523> mroman_: so the story goes, that back in the days when Graue was Dictator Of The Wiki, a well-meaning new user decided to sort the esolangs by year
12:52:11 <ais523> and created a bunch of new categories
12:52:16 <ais523> Graue got annoyed at this and banned the user
12:52:39 <mroman_> To discourage people from adding their own languages as "well-known" to the wikipedia code golf article
12:52:42 <ais523> and the "don't create new categories without permission" rule was added in an attempt to inform people about what happened
12:52:56 <ais523> mroman_: I actually saw the link at Wikipedia
12:53:01 <ais523> we have more than one golfing language, though
12:53:07 <ais523> and I'm not sure we currently categorize by language purpose
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12:54:29 <mroman_> ais523: It wouldn't make sense for most probably.
12:54:54 <ais523> well, I think esolangs can be classified into a few purposes
12:55:05 <mroman_> Well, I'm not saying they can't.
12:55:10 <mroman_> Obviously I'm already doing exactly that :D
12:55:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pyth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44538&oldid=42402 * 160.85.232.142 * (+31) /* External resources */ + cat:golfing language
12:56:03 <mroman_> btw: Does the esowiki have a cache pre-hooked to the webserver?
12:56:29 <ais523> some esolangs are designed to be art, or ask philosophical questions about what a language is (there's sort-of an overlap there)
12:56:37 <ais523> some esolangs are designed to be a language with specific properties
12:57:01 <ais523> some are designed to be easy to implement (often but not always because the creator isn't that good at implementing languages, e.g. Deadfish)
12:57:21 <ais523> some are designed in an attempt to find new computational models
12:57:25 <ais523> and some are designed to look weird
12:58:01 <mroman_> I just don't think that promoting your esolang on wikipedia unless it has really picked up a lot of relevance and/or existed for several years is what wikipedia would really want.
12:58:10 <mroman_> So the place to promote them is the esowiki in my opinion.
12:58:46 <mroman_> Does "mimick brainfuck" count? :D
12:59:02 <mroman_> oh that already exists anyway
12:59:24 <mroman_> My languages are ALWAYS defined to be easily parseable with parsec
13:00:03 <ais523> mroman_: actually I think part of the original motivation for creating Esolang was to help keep Wikipedia tidy (or to put it another way: to save all the languages that people were posting to Wikipedia even though it violated Wikipedia policy)
13:00:27 <ais523> I was heavily involved in that from the Wikipedia side
13:00:50 <mroman_> which was a good choice. Otherwise you'd clobber wikipedia with thousands of esolangs and most of them barely have any relevance.
13:01:10 <ais523> here's links to the history: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ais523/esolangafd
13:01:51 <mroman_> Well, I guess beating up wikipedia is fine in that context too.
13:03:27 <mroman_> Didn't know that happened.
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13:09:51 <mroman_> also tournaments by language on wp is wrong anyway
13:10:00 <mroman_> jagc doesn't feature all those languages in the list
13:10:05 <mroman_> that's only the list for anagol
13:10:17 <mroman_> and I'm not even sure if you'd want to list all the languages available on anagol there
13:11:43 <mroman_> jagc features perl, python, erlang, ruby, haskell bash and php
13:12:46 <mroman_> shorten on spoj features a lot of languages but not as much esolangs as anagol does
13:21:53 <b_jonas> mroman_: how about http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/ ?
13:26:12 <mroman_> If you want you can add it to the wp article. Stackexchange is mentioned under "external links"
13:27:08 <mroman_> I personally don't like codegolf.stackexchange.com since it has no means of validation/byte count whatever
13:27:32 <mroman_> It tends to have more complex problems though.
13:27:37 <mroman_> as on other site with automatic validation
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13:29:01 <mroman_> there are two external links, one to stackoverflow with tag and one to codegolf.stackexchange
13:29:10 <mroman_> I guess codegolf.stackexchange is newer
13:29:55 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, that's the problem, no automatic validation. it does have simple golf problems though.
13:30:03 <b_jonas> both simple ones and very complicated ones.
13:31:25 <mroman_> That's why I don't like it. Problems are often broad.
13:31:43 <mroman_> Do they want a program? Or just a function. Is input passed as arguments, read from stdin or is in a variable
13:32:28 <mroman_> I get that people don't like anagol that much because it looks like a site from the 19** something :D
13:32:43 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, the specs are sometimes too broad
13:32:59 <mroman_> and there's no social media involvement with anagol and that stuff
13:33:08 <mroman_> you can't comment on other people's solution
13:33:21 <b_jonas> mroman_: there's an irc channel but yeahs
13:33:21 <mroman_> I guess that's why most who'd consider golfing don't like anagol too much
13:33:37 <b_jonas> maybe there should be an officially recommended mailing list for it?
13:33:55 <mroman_> I sadly don't have the resources available to make a more friendly page
13:34:02 <mroman_> otherwise I'd already done that.
13:34:03 <b_jonas> I don't care about friendly page
13:34:40 <b_jonas> but if the site recommended an official off-site forum, such as a mailing list, that might help
13:34:40 <mroman_> there's the IRC channel @mailling list
13:35:41 <mroman_> my hosters mailling list service is broken
13:35:47 <mroman_> and they aren't going to fix that
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13:36:34 <mroman_> that surely can't be legal
13:36:44 <mroman_> if they advertise it, they have to actually provide it I'd say
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13:54:53 <b_jonas> is there an article about that golf prelude for ruby1.8 on the esowiki yet?
13:55:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:B jonas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44539&oldid=44275 * B jonas * (+23)
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14:42:21 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/jXREgoR1 <- my brain's idea or a new board game
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14:46:47 <mroman_> I'm tempted to write a program that spawns to programs battling each other
14:46:56 <mroman_> while feeding them the data through stdin/stdout
14:47:04 <mroman_> so you can battle programs and strategies
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16:17:21 <b_jonas> oh no. more macros with short names. just what this code needs.
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16:37:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Espro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44540&oldid=44518 * Timwi * (+0) /* Examples / Ekzemploj */
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18:33:35 <hppavilion[1]> @msg oerjan What's the Funge98 vulnerability? Or can you not tell me?
18:33:42 <hppavilion[1]> @tell oerjan What's the Funge98 vulnerability? Or can you not tell me?
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18:37:07 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], as a Funge-98 implementer I'm curious
18:37:24 <Vorpal> Unless he is talking about the thing I found in my own implementation the other day
18:39:45 <fizzie> Vorpal: I think it was about that.
18:39:59 <fizzie> Vorpal: I don't think oerjan said anything else than just setting the topic.
18:40:32 <Vorpal> I don't see that much, since I never leave
18:40:39 <Vorpal> With the bouncer that is
18:41:02 <Vorpal> fizzie, yeah the only thing I found since then is that nested k can get you stack overflow (unsurprisingly)
18:41:32 <Vorpal> It won't even be possible to rewrite it into tail recursion in the general case I believe
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18:42:41 <Vorpal> fizzie, but that is unavoidable
18:44:52 <Vorpal> fizzie, anyway, how goes jitfunge?
18:53:16 <fizzie> I've been quite busy lately, what with the job and finishing up the thesis, to be fair.
18:53:37 <fizzie> Which reminds me, time to start getting home, it's almost 8pm here. ->
18:54:00 <Vorpal> fizzie, it appears all random variable behaviour involves HRTI, TIME or y
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19:06:45 <fizzie> Bah. The network of my mobile phone operator is otherwise reasonably okay, but there's this one corner of Victoria Station where I just can't get any sort of signal.
19:07:05 <fizzie> It's not even all of the station, just these few platforms.
19:12:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'd like to see a list-like data structure where the length can be any hypercomplex number
19:14:14 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], how would it work
19:14:24 <fizzie> If there are any nurses or doctors on this station, please make your way to platform 13, where your assistance is needed."
19:14:33 <hppavilion[1]> Vorpal: That is left as an excersise for the reader
19:14:41 <fizzie> I thought that was something they only did on planes.
19:14:43 <hppavilion[1]> I have no clue, really. How would imaginary items work in a list?
19:15:39 <fizzie> Won't that just be a linked plane?
19:16:16 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps a programming language like python, but where all data has an actual spatial relation to each other (sort of like a BFian tape, but with actual variables)
19:17:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object-Oriented Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=44541 * Hppavilion1 * (+157) Reserved Page
19:18:02 <Vorpal> hppavilion[1], well, that is called memory? Given, say int a and int b, then &a - &b is the distance measurement between them in C
19:18:14 <Vorpal> Some casting required if we are dealing with disparate types
19:18:27 <Vorpal> This if of course one-dimensional
19:18:46 <Vorpal> Yes, but I was not talking about python
19:18:54 <Vorpal> Anyway you can get it using id()
19:19:00 <fizzie> Vorpal: Also very undefined by standard if we're referring to separate objects.
19:19:21 <Vorpal> A function which always annoy me, since I think it should be identity (for use with higher order functions)
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19:49:34 <hppavilion[1]> Even with some convoluted λ-calcular operations on normal Chruch Numerals?
19:49:46 <hppavilion[1]> Like, the document I just read defined the predecessor function
19:53:00 <Phantom_Hoover> thus -1 f is the inverse of f, but lambda expressions do not have inverses in general
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19:56:32 <hppavilion[1]> Wiki seems to think it's possible with Church Pairs or something
19:57:27 <hppavilion[1]> Something about a pair with the first being the positive and the second being the negative, then swapping the values
19:57:53 <Phantom_Hoover> but i wouldn't call it a church numeral because church numerals are, to me, repeated function application
19:59:56 <hppavilion[1]> Well I think it'd make the most sense to represent a number as some sort of pair if definining complex numbers...
20:00:36 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know enough about λ-calculus to understand what that means xD
20:00:53 <hppavilion[1]> (Assuming it's not the traditional meaning of "abstraction")
20:01:27 <Phantom_Hoover> you have naturals, pairs and equality, you can just build the rest of your types from there
20:01:52 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps I could define some sort of "~" function that takes a number in whatever encoding I use and returns its inverse
20:01:54 <Phantom_Hoover> don't really need to waste time coming up with clever, elegant encodings
20:02:21 <hppavilion[1]> And i that takes an argument and returns its complex equivalent
20:04:12 <hppavilion[1]> I understand that it has to do with moving around variables. I think. That's about it.
20:04:20 <newsham> https://github.com/rwg/aes-horror-shows/tree/master/msp430-microcorruption
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20:06:20 <hppavilion[1]> I /think/ I get how it works, but it's hard to wrap my head around. λxy.yxXY = YX, correct?
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20:07:09 <hppavilion[1]> Phantom_Hoover: You seem to know enough about it to tell me if I'm right. Am I?
20:08:16 <Phantom_Hoover> i never wasted that much time on learning the variable substitution semantics though
20:08:29 <Phantom_Hoover> they're functions, they behave the way you expect functions to
20:09:02 <hppavilion[1]> I decided to remove special operations from my λ-calculator, as I feel it isn't very λ-calculy
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20:18:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44542&oldid=44167 * 50.206.146.226 * (+118) added Portal
20:20:33 <hppavilion[1]> Where λsz.z is how the document I read defines Church 0 and λxy.y is how it defines the Boolean False
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20:29:47 <int-e> of course that's just a convention; the idea is that if-then-else can be the identity function.
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20:32:17 <int-e> so if-then-else b t f = b t f, and the truth values are \t f.t (i.e., K) and \t f.f (i.e., K I)
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21:28:02 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: just joking about Vorpal's discovery
21:29:49 <oerjan> otoh it _does_ allow arbitrary native code execution, otoh you can probably do that from funge98 in more direct ways.
21:30:09 <oerjan> (well, probably allows)
21:33:14 <hppavilion[1]> What kind of logic is this from: \forall(x): (x->y)->(w->z) ?
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21:40:19 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: something that allows quantifying over propositions... probably not very specific.
21:40:52 <hppavilion[1]> I really just need to know about the (x->y)->(w->z) part
21:41:07 <oerjan> oh. -> is probably implication.
21:41:31 <oerjan> what kind of implication would depend on the logic.
21:42:06 <hppavilion[1]> x->y means that if x is true, then y is true. x and y are booleans, or some similar type.
21:42:22 <oerjan> well in that case, classical logic
21:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> LIME is now up and has a BUNCH of planned calculators, including the GUM calculator (Grand Unified Math)
21:43:04 <oerjan> well i suppose it depends on what "x is true" means.
21:43:17 <oerjan> you could interpret that as intuitionistic too.
21:43:34 <oerjan> x <-> true = x is valid for intuitionistic predicates as well.
21:44:00 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently doing the Arithmetic engine because it's needed for Set Theory
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21:45:38 <hppavilion[1]> I'll write the arithmetical calculator, then prealgebraic calculator derived from it
21:46:29 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: classical logic is what ordinary math tends to use. but intuitionistic logic is more popular for theorem provers because it fits better to the curry-howard "programs as proofs" correspondence.
21:48:05 <oerjan> in intuitionistic logic, (x -> false) -> false is not equal to x
21:48:34 <int-e> really, HOL, Coq and Isabelle/HOL, Isabelle/FOL, Isabelle/ZF all use classical logic (the Isabelle/Pure framework is intuitionistic though, I believe)
21:48:46 <shachaf> in the other channel we were talking about "at least one" and "at most one"
21:49:05 <shachaf> exists, +, surjective, total, relevant, at least one
21:49:18 <shachaf> unique, ?, injective, functional, affine, at most one
21:49:25 <shachaf> so many names for the same concepts
21:50:02 <oerjan> shachaf: that means there has to be something categorical unifying them, right?
21:50:19 <int-e> I guess I should write the first HOL and HOL4.
21:53:02 <int-e> oerjan: of course if you want to run a proof as code, you better avoid classical tools like the axiom of choice and the law of excluded middle. but in Coq they're still available for proving properties of functions.
21:53:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm just trying to make a joke that's probably true hth
21:53:56 <oerjan> int-e: ok, so i guess it depends on where you are on the sliding scale between theorem prover and dependently typed PL
21:55:04 <oerjan> i had somehow the impression that Coq was intuitionistic at the core but classical logic was just one added axiom if you needed it.
21:57:00 <int-e> uh, I guess we're also discussing where the theorem prover ends and where user-written theories start
21:57:43 * oerjan hasn't ever got around to do much more than staring blankly at Coq's startup screen.
21:58:41 <int-e> I haven't used Coq seriously either, but I'm using Isabelle quite a bit.
22:00:34 <int-e> (Which is definitely at the theorem prover end of the spectrum. But it supports functional programming style function definitions and can export them as code. So you can produce verified software with it.)
22:02:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Commercial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44543&oldid=43977 * LegionMammal978 * (+23) /* Hello, world! */
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22:27:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44544&oldid=35541 * LegionMammal978 * (+1294)
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22:48:06 * oerjan thinks the number of italians is going up steeply
22:48:29 <oerjan> sorry, shachaf, you're not allowed to be italian too
22:50:23 <shachaf> oerjan: you don't sound sorry
22:50:33 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see my failed attempt at oerjaning earlier
22:50:41 <oerjan> sound transmits badly through irc hth
22:51:01 <oerjan> _denis_: that's what i noticed, and you're the second to arrive recently
22:51:37 <shachaf> copumpkin is also italian hth
22:52:10 <oerjan> i remember that copumpkin has a funny last name that's not at all italian-sounding. i just don't remember what it is.
22:52:30 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+DanielPeebles/about
22:54:01 <oerjan> what order are those places in
22:54:46 * oerjan thinks norwegian UI nationalization looks eery on that page
22:55:55 <oerjan> the most annoying thing about nationalized UIs is that you never know how to explain or search for things
22:57:34 <oerjan> copumpkin: how are the working conditions of a sponge, anyway? maybe i should consider a new career...
22:58:30 <shachaf> what is your current career?
22:59:16 <oerjan> but i have a feeling that i might be able to cope with being a sponge
22:59:50 <shachaf> sponge (animal) or sponge (material)?
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23:00:40 <oerjan> i might not be that good with underwater conditions
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23:25:14 <copumpkin> I'm not really italian, but I grew up in italy and fit in pretty well
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23:38:41 <\oren\> wut is Du criticL funj nInE At vulnRabilitE?
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23:50:50 <boily> hellørjan. critical funge vuln?
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23:55:10 <hppavilion[1]> boily: I think it's in Vorpal's Funge-98 interpreter
23:55:36 <boily> hppavellon[1]! the horror!
23:55:47 <boily> Vellorpal. do you corroborate?
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23:58:13 <oerjan> iirc it involved stack stack operations giving access to out of bound memory
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00:07:34 <Melvar> Blerg. How does one find out the size of C types when one is not in C?
00:08:32 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a new elementary programming challenge
00:09:38 <hppavilion[1]> And a certain number of words in, cut off the word halfway through and append "- OH MY *BLUB* GOD IT'S A *BLUB* CAT"
00:15:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44545&oldid=44544 * LegionMammal978 * (+25)
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00:37:16 <boily> ♪ fish go bluuuub ♪
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01:04:45 <newsham> > let f inp = let (xs,x) = (init &&& last) (words inp) in intercalate " *BLUB* " (xs ++ [take (length x `div` 2) x]) ++ "- OH MY *BLUB* GOD IT'S A *BLUB* CAT" in f "welcome to esolang everyone"
01:04:47 <lambdabot> "welcome *BLUB* to *BLUB* esolang *BLUB* ever- OH MY *BLUB* GOD IT'S A *BLUB...
01:06:07 <newsham> ?let goldfish inp = let (xs,x) = (init &&& last) (words inp) in intercalate " *BLUB* " (xs ++ [take (length x `div` 2) x]) ++ "- OH MY *BLUB* GOD IT'S A *BLUB* CAT"
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01:07:35 * oerjan swats hppavilion[1] -----###
01:07:35 <newsham> > text $ goldfish "I am the walrus"
01:07:37 <lambdabot> I *BLUB* am *BLUB* the *BLUB* wal- OH MY *BLUB* GOD IT'S A *BLUB* CAT
01:08:34 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: lambdabot doesn't allow user defining actual @commands
01:09:32 <oerjan> ?let only affects the environment used by > and @run
01:09:53 <newsham> ?let goldfish' = text . goldfish
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01:11:10 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Doc’ with ‘[Char]’
01:14:09 <newsham> > goldfish' "you dont need text with this one"
01:14:10 <lambdabot> you *BLUB* dont *BLUB* need *BLUB* text *BLUB* with *BLUB* this *BLUB* o- OH...
01:15:03 <Sgeo> hppavilion[1], does i have an encoding in lambda calculus?
01:16:46 <oerjan> that's pretty trivial.
01:17:18 <oerjan> in fact it's right there on the Iota page.
01:17:53 <hppavilion[1]> I asked him earlier to encode @ into λ-calculus as a partial joke
01:18:14 <oerjan> well first you need to encode complex numbers in general.
01:18:51 <Sgeo> I think we still have 3 competing definitions of |a + b@|
01:19:01 <Sgeo> (And two people making those definitions)
01:19:34 <Sgeo> At least one is Jewish
01:20:39 <Sgeo> A number defined (or perhaps || redefined, to be more accurately possible) such that |@| = -1
01:21:07 <oerjan> ok good, the first google hit i found said "israelis"
01:21:30 <oerjan> i suppose you're not israeli though
01:24:18 <oerjan> what i recall from that discussion is that you couldn't even decide to make it a proper ring :P
01:24:44 <oerjan> even though that _seems_ to be basically compatible with the premise.
01:25:10 <oerjan> well, technically anything that doesn't speak about || would be compatible
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01:27:55 <pikhq> Ring ring ring ring, bananaphone
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01:28:23 <oerjan> well you kept discussing what addition should do, which is really trivial if you assume a ring...
01:28:58 <Melvar> Aaa how do I find out how big size_t is?
01:29:07 <pikhq> Melvar: sizeof(size_t)?
01:29:07 <oerjan> also, it seems logical to make it a real vector space.
01:29:16 <pikhq> Or do you mean SIZE_T_MAX?
01:29:17 <Melvar> pikhq: I’m not writing in C.
01:29:29 <oerjan> Melvar: what language are you writing in?
01:30:03 <Sgeo> oerjan, I haven't considered multiplication much, but I think |a + b@| is more... answerable than a + b@, like how you can't simplify a+bi
01:30:03 <Melvar> Well, so far really I’m not writing in any at all, but if I found a halfway promising route it would be Idris.
01:31:12 <oerjan> Sgeo: my intuition says that if you are including both i and @, and say that @^2 = 1 (i think that was suggested), then a + bi + c@ + di@ would be the general form of your numbers
01:31:31 <oerjan> making addition and multiplication obvious.
01:31:57 <oerjan> and then you just have to define || to fit reasonably.
01:32:21 <Sgeo> That makes sense, I think I've sort of been assuming that. That last part is what's tricky, and I'm not convinced that there's only one reasonable || definition
01:32:29 <Melvar> I can call C functions, but I can only marshal int, double, (char *), pointer, and uint{8,16,32,64}_t values and have to know which to use.
01:32:58 <oerjan> Melvar: well you are the idris expert here in the channel afaik
01:33:13 <oerjan> doesn't it have an ffi?
01:33:48 <oerjan> in which case either the ffi should have a way to tell, or you could use it to write a small C wrapper that did
01:34:07 <oerjan> hm i guess the latter wouldn't be a compile time result
01:34:13 <Melvar> I listed the available types just above.
01:34:52 <oerjan> well i'm pretty sure the C standard doesn't _require_ size_t to be any of them.
01:35:16 <pikhq> The C standard would permit size_t to be a uint80_t.
01:35:43 <pikhq> The C standard also does not require uint8_t, uint16_t, uint32_t, or uint64_t to exist.
01:35:59 <oerjan> although i vaguely assume uint32_t and uint64_t to be the most likely
01:36:30 <oerjan> !c printf("%d", sizeof(size_t));
01:36:34 <pikhq> It has the pretty loose requirement that uint*_t exist if your system has a conforming type. :)
01:36:53 <pikhq> And you're correct, *in practice* uint32_t and uint64_t are the likely types.
01:37:20 <pikhq> With uint16_t much less likely but technically still possible, and that rounds up the ones you're realistically going to see.
01:37:50 <Melvar> Well, the uint types listed must exist to compile the idris C rts.
01:38:02 <pikhq> Sounds like a poorly thought out RTS.
01:39:08 <Melvar> Furthermore, I expect that any system on which it is possible to compile Idris will not only have those, but will also have size_t be one of those sizes.
01:39:11 <oerjan> :t Foreign.C.Types.CSize
01:40:03 <oerjan> i'm guessing that's Haskell's version
01:40:27 <pikhq> Well yes, POSIX requires the types to exist (and it's unlikely as hell that size_t will be a weird type in such a case). :)
01:42:06 <Melvar> ( [Int, Bits8, Bits16, Bits32, Bits64]
01:42:06 <idris-bot> [Int, Bits8, Bits16, Bits32, Bits64] : List Type
01:43:29 <pikhq> Another telling thing: it says "pointer". C pointers do not necessarily have the same representation.
01:43:51 <pikhq> char* and void* have the same representation, and must be able to point to any object.
01:43:58 <pikhq> All other pointer types do not have this property.
01:45:06 <pikhq> (sizeof(double*) and sizeof(char*), say, don't even have to be the same)
01:45:20 <Melvar> It seems to be a (void *).
01:46:19 <pikhq> (C: the language that nobody actually understands! :P)
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01:56:45 <lambdabot> ‘IM.size’ (imported from Data.IntMap),
02:00:20 <Melvar> So, well, where do things like compilers with FFIs that provide for size_t get their info about how it needs to be dealt with?
02:05:26 <pikhq> libffi is a popular choice.
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02:12:52 <lambdabot> ‘IM.size’ (imported from Data.IntMap),
02:14:32 <\oren\> I see. I have been informed that the french my dad speaks is not quebecois french, it is "horrible french"
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02:51:07 <Sgeo> Isn't there some kind of deep reason you can have a system of imaginaries like 1 + i + j + k but not 1 + i + j? Because I imagine @ giving complications similar to the latter when mixed with normal imaginaries
02:51:18 <Sgeo> I don't actually know what those complications are though
02:53:50 <doesthiswork> so the dilemma is whether |a+bi+c@+di@| should equal sqrt(a^2+b^2-c^2-d^2), equal sqrt((a-c)^2+(b-c)^2) or possibly something different?
02:55:04 <Sgeo> I think I had a good reason for disliking the former, the latter could be simplified
02:55:15 <Sgeo> Well not simplified, but differneized
02:56:24 <Sgeo> Why don't I start like this: |(a+b@)(c+d@)| = |ac + (ad+bc)@ + bd@^2|
02:56:54 <Sgeo> meh we don't really know |@^2| although = 1 seems reasonable
02:59:28 <Sgeo> Under the |a+b@| = |a| - |b| we get (|a| - |b|)(|c| - |d|) = |ac| - |ad + bc| + |bd|? = |a||c| - |a||d| - |b||c| + |b||d|
02:59:29 <doesthiswork> also I think I heard that in quaternions k is just a notational convenience but is not any different from ij.
02:59:57 <Sgeo> (Assuming |a||b| = |ab|)
03:00:20 <Sgeo> That looks really wrong.
03:02:36 <Sgeo> |ac| - |ad + bc| + |bd| = |ac| - |ad| - |bc| + |bd|; |ad + bc| = |ad| + |bc|; which is known incorrect
03:03:51 <Sgeo> If |@| = -1 and |@@| = 1 and |ab| = |a||b| for a and b in c@mplexes, then |a+b@| = |a| - |b| is a bad definition.
03:03:58 <Sgeo> We know something concrete, yay!
03:04:30 <Sgeo> Let's see if I can plug in an example to the original equation to make it obvious
03:04:51 <Sgeo> a = c = d = 1; b = -1
03:05:16 <doesthiswork> yes, can we recover |a+@b| = |a|-|b| for either pure imaginary or pure real numbers?
03:07:08 <Sgeo> meh don't feel like plugging it i
03:07:34 <Sgeo> How about that other definition, |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi|
03:07:57 <Sgeo> (Where a and b are real, so we can use abs of complex to mean "distance")
03:09:08 <Sgeo> doesthiswork, imagining a and b as values along dimensions, and || as distance, except b contributes negatively
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03:10:32 <Sgeo> |a+bi| - 2|a-bi|... hmm
03:10:39 <Sgeo> I originally worked it out with sqrt and squares
03:11:38 <Sgeo> It should be in logs somewhere, but right now it looks a bit weird
03:11:42 <doesthiswork> I am haveing trouble imagining an orthogonal vector that decreases distance from the orgin
03:12:02 <oerjan> Sgeo: the problem with 1 + i + j is defining division, afair
03:12:49 <oerjan> other than that, any reasonable multiplication of the basis elements should work for a ring
03:13:15 <Sgeo> Back to examining |a+b@| = 2a - |a+bi|
03:13:25 <oerjan> (reasonable: the multiplication gives a group on what you can reach with it)
03:13:39 <Sgeo> |(a+b@)(c+d@)| = |ac + (ad+bc)@ + bd@^2|
03:14:03 <oerjan> well, for things like ij = -k or the like. it's probably complicated if you mix in addition there
03:14:41 <Sgeo> (2a - |a+bi|)(2c - |c+di|) = |(ac... crud
03:15:22 <Sgeo> Questionable assumption: |a + b@@| isn't necessarily |a+b| even if |@@| = 1, right?
03:15:23 <oerjan> Sgeo: oh hm there's an obvious property you _could_ try to get (it works for complex numbers): |zw| = |z||w|
03:15:45 <oerjan> i have my doubts it works here...
03:15:52 <Sgeo> I assumed that before in my definition disproof for |a+b@| = |a| - |b|
03:16:24 <Sgeo> if @@ = i (it doesn't obviously) |1 + i| != |1+1|
03:17:07 <Sgeo> Oh you gave an assumption @@ = 1, so I can just append that to my above disproof
03:17:17 <doesthiswork> |a|^2=|a^2| so 1 is an very reasonable value for |@^2|
03:17:32 <Sgeo> doesthiswork, but that's not the question
03:19:30 <Sgeo> (2a - |a+bi|)(2c - |c+di|) = 2(ac + bd) - |(ac + bd) + (ad + bc)i|
03:20:36 <Sgeo> Well the 4 vs 2 is scaring me a bit, but let's keep going
03:21:45 <Sgeo> 4ac - 2a|c+di| - 2c|a+bi| + |a+bi||c+di| = 2ac + 2bd - |(ac + bd) + (ad + bc)i|
03:23:57 <Sgeo> 2ac - 2a|c+di| - 2c|a+bi| = 2bd - |ac + bd + adi + bci|
03:24:14 <Sgeo> I feel like I'm getting nowhere fast
03:26:46 <oerjan> doesthiswork: hey i'm even further back ok
03:27:03 * oerjan not going to try understanding the details
03:31:50 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
03:32:21 <Sgeo> |(ac + bd) + (ad + bc)i| = sqrt((ac + bd)^2 - (ad + bc)^2); sqrt((ac)^2 + 2abcd + (bd)^2 - (ad^2) - 2abdc - (bc)^2) = why do I do this to myself
03:33:17 <Sgeo> sqrt((ac)^2 + (bd)^2 - (ad)^2 - (bc)^2)
03:33:38 <Sgeo> This looks really wrong but it's not even the prior problem
03:38:32 <Sgeo> In the same way sqrt(1) = -1
03:39:12 <Sgeo> Dealing with that is a good reason to avoid |a+b@| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2) as a definition
03:39:39 <Sgeo> Because it only makes the inside negat... well if |@| = i instead of |@| = -1 that could be an approach
03:39:56 <Sgeo> Then |@^2| = -1
03:42:20 <Sgeo> I'll call it # such that |#| = i and #^2 = @
03:43:09 <Sgeo> Although it's hard to determine the sign of the sqrt function
03:43:31 <Sgeo> But let's say we want to find |a + b@| = |... crud
03:45:40 <Sgeo> 2ac - 2a|c+di| - 2c|a+bi| = 2bd - |ac + bd + adi + bci|
03:48:21 <Sgeo> 2a|c+di| + 2c|a+bi| - 2ac = |(ac + bd) + (ad + bc)i| - 2bd
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03:51:18 <oerjan> if |@| = i instead, we'd have minkowski geometry.
03:51:41 <oerjan> which is a very respectable thing, although i'm not sure if it has a multiplication.
03:53:31 <oerjan> it's basically |(a,b,c,d)| = sqrt(a^2 - b^2 - c^2 - d^2)
03:53:46 <oerjan> (in 4 dimensions, the most important one for physics)
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04:00:30 <Sgeo> Woohoo I have an extra hour to do math before having to do work stuff
04:00:52 <Sgeo> Although I might be slightly stumped right now
04:02:25 <Sgeo> Tempted to plug in random numbers and see what happens
04:04:54 <Sgeo> > let dist a b = sqrt (a^2 + b^2); f a b c d = 2 * a * dist c d + 2 * c * dist a b - 2 * a * c; g a b c d = dist (a * c + b * d) (a * d + b * c) - 2 * b * d in (f 1 -1 1 1, g 1 -1 1 1)
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04:30:56 <oerjan> > let dist a b = sqrt (a^2 + b^2); f a b c d = 2 * a * dist c d + 2 * c * dist a b - 2 * a * c; g a b c d = dist (a * c + b * d) (a * d + b * c) - 2 * b * d in (f 1 (-1) 1 1, g 1 (-1) 1 1)
04:31:35 <lambdabot> from the context (Num a, Num (a -> t))
04:31:35 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_111’: (Num a, Num (a -> t)) => t
04:31:59 <Sgeo> And... that's not the answer I was hoping for
04:32:25 <Sgeo> Although any of my algebra could be wrong too
04:36:42 <Vorpal> <hppavilion[1]> boily: I think it's in Vorpal's Funge-98 interpreter <-- it was. it is fixed
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04:49:07 <Sgeo> Wonder if I can actually create a definition
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04:49:44 <Sgeo> Hmm, probably no
04:49:59 <Sgeo> (I meant by using that rule that I expect to hold)
04:50:46 <Sgeo> > 2^3 -- checking pow vs xor
04:56:59 * Sgeo eyes the @@=1 assumption suspiciously
04:58:17 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x::Int) `xor` y == x^y
04:58:19 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
04:58:24 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
04:58:25 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Exception: 'Negative exponent' (after 2 tests and 1 shrink):
04:58:43 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y>=0 => (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
04:58:43 <lambdabot> <unknown>.hs: 1: 14:Parse error: =>
04:58:57 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y<0 || (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
04:59:55 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y<0 || (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
05:01:42 <oerjan> hmph it's not actually true
05:01:45 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y<0 || (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
05:02:13 <oerjan> > ( \x y -> y<0 || (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y ) 0 0
05:02:27 <oerjan> > ( \x y -> y<0 || (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y ) 1 0
05:02:39 <oerjan> @check doesn't check enough
05:02:45 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y<0 || (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
05:05:46 <oerjan> :t (Test.QuickCheck.=>)
05:05:47 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘Test.QuickCheck.=>’
05:06:46 <oerjan> @check \x y -> y>=0 ==> (x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y
05:06:46 <lambdabot> : -1: -1:Ambiguous infix expression
05:07:05 <oerjan> @check \x y -> (y>=0) ==> ((x::Int) `xor` y /= x^y)
05:11:24 <Sgeo> (2a - |a+bi|)(2c - |c+di|) = 2(ac + bd) - |(ac + bd) + (ad + bc)i|
05:12:56 <Sgeo> @check \a b c d -> let dist a b = sqrt (a^2 + b^2) in (2 * a - dist a b) * (2 * c - dist c d) ==> 2 * (a * c + b * d) - dist (a * c + b * d) (a * d + b * c)
05:12:58 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty’
05:12:58 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Bool’ In the second argument of ‘(*)’, namely ‘c’ In the f...
05:14:13 <Sgeo> I have no idea how to check
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05:26:46 <oerjan> Sgeo: the thing to the right of ==> should probably be a boolean expression
05:27:07 <Sgeo> What do I put to the left of it?
05:27:10 <oerjan> also, the precedence of ==> seemed to require some parentheses
05:27:17 <oerjan> another boolean expression
05:27:25 <Sgeo> @check \a b c d -> True ==> let dist a b = sqrt (a^2 + b^2) in (2 * a - dist a b) * (2 * c - dist c d) == 2 * (a * c + b * d) - dist (a * c + b * d) (a * d + b * c)
05:27:26 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 1088 shrinks):
05:27:27 <lambdabot> -0.24087198985222466 0.590250929928695 -1.0415408383336255 -0.16549717990989027
05:27:40 <oerjan> um you don't need ==> at all then
05:27:56 <oerjan> it's for when you have a prerequisite for the check
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05:28:14 <oerjan> and you don't want the prerequisite failing to count as the whole failing. i assume.
05:28:29 <oerjan> @check \x -> False ==> x == 1
05:28:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Show prop0) arising from a use of ‘myquickcheck’
05:28:30 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘prop0’ is ambiguous Note: there are several potential ins...
05:28:31 <Sgeo> oerjan, I learned @check by example not by real learning
05:28:40 <oerjan> @check \x -> False ==> (x::Int) == 1
05:28:41 <lambdabot> No instance for (STestable Int) arising from a use of ‘==>’
05:28:41 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(==)’, namely ‘False ==> (x :: Int)’ In the expres...
05:28:50 <oerjan> @check \x -> False ==> ((x::Int) == 1)
05:29:08 <oerjan> @check \x -> True ==> ((x::Int) == 1)
05:29:10 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
05:29:29 <oerjan> @check \x -> (x == 1 || x > 1e9) ==> ((x::Int) == 1)
05:29:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional Int) arising from the literal ‘1e9’
05:29:30 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(>)’, namely ‘1e9’ In the second argument of ‘(||...
05:29:41 <oerjan> @check \x -> (x == 1 || x > 1000000) ==> ((x::Int) == 1)
05:29:43 <lambdabot> *** Gave up! Passed only 22 tests.
05:29:45 <Sgeo> I wonder if there's a differnt definition for @^2 that would make it work
05:30:31 <oerjan> *as the whole succeeding
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05:31:04 <lambdabot> STestable prop => Bool -> prop -> Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty
05:32:51 <oerjan> @check \x -> ((x::Int) < 5) ==> \y -> ((y::Int) < 5) ==> x+y < 9
05:32:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty’
05:32:52 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘Int’ In the second argument of ‘(+)’, namely ‘y’ In the fi...
05:33:07 <oerjan> @check \x -> ((x::Int) < 5) ==> \y -> ((y::Int) < 5) ==> (x+y < 9)
05:33:39 <oerjan> so the thing to the right of ==> can be somewhat more, maybe anything you can pass to @check itself
05:34:19 <oerjan> which seems like it's nice to prune the search
05:38:28 <lambdabot> STestable prop => Bool -> prop -> Test.QuickCheck.Safe.SProperty
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05:40:39 <Sgeo> @check \a b c d -> let dist a b = sqrt (a^2 + b^2) in (2 * a - dist a b) * (2 * c - dist c d) == 2 * (a * c - b * d) - dist (a * c + b * d) (a * d + b * c)
05:40:41 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 2 tests and 1085 shrinks):
05:40:41 <lambdabot> 0.47739896661811293 -1.171602104864355 -15.621137908887599 -0.406648332848909
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05:47:01 <\oren\> > 冬冷写友永池決汽油温港湖漢点炭無牛犬犯理由甲申界皇真礼社神空窓笑笛第久互囚図国地巾己年弔当形悪戸所才打正止歩死
05:47:03 <lambdabot> ‘冬冷写友永池決汽油温港湖漢点炭無牛犬犯理由甲申界皇真礼社神空窓笑笛第久互囚図国地巾己年弔当形悪戸所才打正止歩死’
05:48:54 <newsham> > map isUpper "冬冷写友永池決汽油温港湖漢点炭無牛犬犯理由甲申界皇真礼社神空窓笑笛第久互囚図国地巾己年弔当形悪戸所才打正止歩死"
05:48:55 <lambdabot> [False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,False,Fal...
05:51:36 <newsham> > filter isUpper "冬冷写友永池決汽油温港湖漢点炭無牛犬犯理由甲申界皇真礼社神空窓笑笛第久互囚図国地巾己年弔当形悪戸所才打正止歩死"
05:52:29 <lifthrasiir> \oren\: Unicode Lo category does not have a separate casing
05:54:12 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
05:54:21 <\oren\> is that the same thing as saying "there's no uppercase and lowercase [hk]an[zj][ia]"?
05:55:10 <\oren\> (to cover hanzi, kanji, hanja)
05:55:11 <newsham> so no "data" decls using chinese characters?
05:55:48 <\oren\> I thought they would simply alway be considered lowercase
05:57:02 <lifthrasiir> may seem so, but "uncased" script would be more appropriate
05:57:48 <newsham> ?let un湖 C犬 a b = a; un湖 C神 a b = b
05:58:14 <newsham> lifthrasiir: neat, reverse "dog" == "god"
05:58:38 <lifthrasiir> newsham: heh, that's a good correspondence
06:00:07 <\oren\> newsham: you don't know you hkanzjia?
06:01:19 <newsham> the haskell capitalization rules seem to penalize those langauges that dont use caps
06:01:50 <newsham> what rules does ruby have for caps?
06:02:14 <newsham> what do people usually do in that situation?
06:02:24 <\oren\> well just remember that to drink, you want the bottle with with 牛 on it, and not the one with 油 on it!
06:02:47 <izabera> 牛 is beer and 油 is arsenic
06:03:10 <\oren\> no, cow (milk), and oil respectively
06:03:21 -!- sc00fy has joined.
06:03:46 <izabera> cow and milk use the same character?
06:03:52 -!- mihow has joined.
06:04:50 <\oren\> so if you see any character but 牛 before 乳 you're not getting the right kind of milk
06:05:07 <lifthrasiir> newsham: Ruby considers any uncased letters as lowercase, so they cannot be used as the first letter of class name etc.
06:06:11 <newsham> do programmers prefix with a roman uppercase letter or something like that, in such situations?
06:06:31 <lifthrasiir> they simply avoid using non-ASCII letters in the code.
06:07:16 <\oren\> yeah programs usually are written either with english or the romanization of the language
06:08:35 <newsham> we should be giving them an easy prefix letter to override that caps rule.
06:08:47 <newsham> like "words starting with . are considered upper case" or something
06:10:02 <\oren\> does parsing Haskell demand knowning what is a type versus variable name?
06:10:40 <newsham> prob requires knowing what is a constructor
06:11:21 <\oren\> right s/type/constructor/ s/variable/function
06:12:52 <newsham> variable: you're always changing
06:13:28 <newsham> sorry, i always mix you up with the variable you shadow
06:13:29 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
06:13:33 <newsham> i can never tell you guys apart
06:13:54 <newsham> its true, he is constant.. constantly changing
06:14:14 <constant> yeah, nothing stops an immutable variable from changing on you
06:15:37 <newsham> > let pi = 3 in 45 * pi / 180.0
06:17:22 <\oren\> > let π = pi in e ^ (π * i)
06:19:29 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: lexical error at character '\11238'
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06:20:22 <\oren\> oh wait that's one of my font's non-unicode characters
06:20:33 <oerjan> \oren\: it's the i that makes it not halt, it isn't actually the i you think
06:20:48 <oerjan> :t let π = pi in e ^ (π * i)
06:21:19 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
06:21:56 -!- mihow has joined.
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06:22:59 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
06:23:34 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
06:23:59 <\oren\> fuck you lamdabot why can't you parse a hot spring
06:24:49 <izabera> it knows that after an expression it needs 'in' and then another expression, right?
06:25:14 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error in let binding: missing required 'in'
06:25:19 <bender|> \oren\, er, I don't think it supports unicode?
06:25:33 -!- mihow has quit (Client Quit).
06:26:13 <\oren\> it supports unicode but only some characters. Wut. Duh. Fuk.
06:26:44 <\oren\> also that last thing I typed had an in-joke
06:28:00 <newsham> > let x ☃ y = x + y in 3 ☃ 5
06:28:14 <newsham> its not the unicodeness that was the problem
06:28:32 <\oren\> OH! so haskell wants non-alnums to be operators not variables
06:30:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: lexical error at character '\8538'
06:30:31 <\oren\> hmm but it doesn't know what five sixths it
06:31:46 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: lexical error at character '\8538'
06:32:25 <\oren\> > let a⅚ = 4 in a⅚ + a⅚
06:33:26 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal character ''\8538''
06:33:40 <\oren\> a variable can't begin with a number apparently
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06:35:00 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘isNumber’ (imported from Data.Char)
06:35:13 <oerjan> <izabera> why is 'in' required? <-- it's not ambiguous without a separator.
06:35:37 <izabera> did you mean it's ambiguous without a separator ?
06:35:41 <newsham> "Note that numeric digits outside the ASCII range are selected by this function but not by isDigit. Such digits may be part of identifiers but are not used by the printer and reader to represent numbers.
06:36:00 <oerjan> > let i = sin in 3 + i 5
06:38:28 <Sgeo> Maybe I'm approaching this wrong, and what I really need to do is find a sane definition of |a + b@ + c@^2|
06:38:38 <Sgeo> That is compatible with whatever definition I have in mind
06:38:40 <\oren\> > let x ☭ y = (x + y)/2 in 4 ☭ 7
06:40:54 <Sgeo> |b@ + c@^2| = |@||b+c@| = -|b+c@|
06:42:06 <Sgeo> If @^2 = 1, then |b@ + c| = -|b+c@|, which is... I can't tell if that's exactly a property I want or if it's garbage
06:43:13 <Sgeo> b = c = 1, |@ + 1| = -|@ + 1| ?
06:44:46 <Sgeo> That definitely doesn't work with my dimensional definition
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06:57:53 <Sgeo> |a + b@| = |#||a/# + b#| = i*???
07:00:47 <Sgeo> What happens if I pretend I can do this? |a + b@| = |a + b##| = sqrt(a^2 - (b#)^2) = sqrt(a^2-@b^2)
07:01:57 <Sgeo> If @ can signal || to produce negative, then why can't it signal "sqrt" in some similar way?
07:02:23 <Sgeo> I don't know how to take the square root of c@mplex numbers
07:03:29 <Sgeo> Apparently this is a reasonable thing that occurs in real math.
07:03:44 <Sgeo> Except probably not that symbol
07:04:51 <Sgeo> |@| = sqrt(-@) = i*# = not what we wanted.... unless i# is inexplicibly -1
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07:18:59 <oerjan> for square root of complex number, (a+bi)^2 = c+di <=> a^2 - b^2 = c, 2ab = d; just solve that hth
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07:25:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric algorithm]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44546&oldid=43644 * Oerjan * (+0) case
07:27:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dropsort]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44547&oldid=43646 * Oerjan * (+16) case, sp, fmt
07:31:12 <izabera> instead of dropping the elements, add them to a new list
07:31:20 <izabera> dropsort again, then merge
07:31:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:InputUsername]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44548&oldid=43652 * Oerjan * (-1) Poor guy languishing in the wrong channel
07:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Langar.io]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44549&oldid=43654 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned, also you do know people get told about new messages in their user talk page, right?
07:34:15 <myname> izabera: 1. how do you merge them? 2. that'll ruin runtime
07:34:41 <izabera> merge them like in merge sort
07:35:02 <myname> it is basically a slower version of mergesort
07:35:38 <oerjan> particularly with a list that starts in reverse order
07:37:05 <izabera> it's faster if the data is almost sorted
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07:52:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44550&oldid=43921 * Oerjan * (+30) Some proofreading
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07:59:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:WASD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44551&oldid=43671 * Oerjan * (+46) ominous lack of sign
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08:22:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfact]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44552&oldid=43692 * Oerjan * (+49) unsigned
08:27:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Smallfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44553&oldid=43698 * Oerjan * (+51) unsigned
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08:32:28 <b_jonas> hmm, what's the url of ayacc?
08:33:01 <oerjan> didn't ais523 paste some darcs thing
08:34:03 <oerjan> i found the discussion of VCS war very ironic after it, anyway
08:34:27 <oerjan> hm wait, that may have been underlambda
08:34:51 <oerjan> it's somewhere on the nethack4 site, anyway, i think he keeps most his stuff there
08:35:35 <b_jonas> he had a plain download url. I have the url at home, but not here
08:41:07 <b_jonas> oh wait, maybe it's in the nethack4 or the c-intercal source code
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08:42:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[InDec]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44554&oldid=43706 * Oerjan * (+3) sp, fmt
08:44:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ZeptoBasic]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44555&oldid=43707 * Oerjan * (+8) links
08:57:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44556&oldid=43725 * Oerjan * (+25) some proofreading, and vague unease
09:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Non-Specific Assignment]] to [[Non-specific assignment]]: Not a proper name
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09:04:02 <fizzie> b_jonas: http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl if that's still relevant.
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09:06:05 <b_jonas> `le/rn ayacc/ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl
09:06:12 <HackEgo> ayacc is ais523's yacc parser generator implementation, get it from http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl
09:07:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Non-specific assignment]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44558&oldid=44557 * Oerjan * (+0) case and grm
09:10:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44559&oldid=43717 * Oerjan * (-703) C'est vrai!
09:14:14 <Taneb> I remember when some of my friends made a roguelike for Ludum Dare
09:14:25 <Taneb> It had, iirc, "Dutch" as a race
09:18:28 <Taneb> And the name generator gave you the same name ("Colin") unless you were a specific race/class combination
09:21:48 <Taneb> Yeah, the races were Human, Dutch, Elf, Dwarf, Halfling, and Quarterling, and the classes were Miner, Attorney, Clog Maker, Huntsman, Chef, Tourist, and Dog
09:23:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/FurryScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44560&oldid=43724 * Oerjan * (+8) wayback
09:23:42 <myname> i'd love to play a dwarven attorney
09:23:58 <Taneb> If you played as a Human Attorney and asked for a random name, it called you "Javert"
09:24:57 <oerjan> surely that should be an inspector
09:25:32 <Taneb> There isn't an inspector class
09:27:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44561&oldid=43728 * Oerjan * (+0) /* External Resources */ casus belli
09:32:08 <fizzie> Human attorney, Dutch clog maker, elven huntsman, dwarven miner, halfling chef and quartering... I-don't-know-what, for maximum typecasting.
09:33:00 <Taneb> A quarterling is like a halfling but even more so
09:33:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glypho]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44562&oldid=43733 * Oerjan * (+7) links
09:34:28 <Taneb> The mobs in the game were hedgehog, squirrel, duck, goose, orc, cave pirate, wolfman, fallen angel, and dragon
09:35:42 <fizzie> In ascending order of difficulty?
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09:36:29 <Taneb> Source code is here: https://github.com/HackSoc/LudumDare29
09:37:03 <Taneb> And we learnt the valuable lesson that a roguelike in C isn't very good for ludum dare when your build instructions are "make"
09:37:21 <oerjan> this is a quarterling hth http://yafgc.net/comic/2443-halfs/
09:38:47 <oerjan> i see today's comic is up too, and confirming the speculation i read in the forum...
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10:06:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=44563&oldid=43939 * Oerjan * (+0) section name
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10:42:45 <mroman_> How come to average number to reach 1.0 from 0.0 by adding a random number between 0..1 is not 2?
10:44:04 <mroman_> double d = 0.0; while(d < 1.0) { d += rnd(); steps++; }
10:44:13 <mroman_> average number of steps will be e
10:46:09 <myname> there are much more floats between 0 and 0.05 tthan between 0.05 and 0.1, arenkt they?
10:46:32 <int-e> mroman_: well, it's more than 2 because the amount that you overshoot the target (1) is lost.
10:47:09 <myname> e sounds reasonable because of the distribution of floats to me
10:47:35 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/gbrKc3dw
10:48:07 <int-e> (lost compared to just adding rnd and checking when you jump across a natural number)
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10:49:45 <mroman_> The expected value of rnd() is 0.5. So the sum of two rnd() is expected to be 1.
10:50:00 <mroman_> Either it has something to do with the float/double data types
10:50:20 <mroman_> (or possibly the rnd() function itself)
10:51:37 <mroman_> but it's too close to e to be a coincidence :)
10:53:19 <ski> shachaf : ok, ty
10:56:07 <mroman_> but yeah, you loose the overshoot
10:56:09 <int-e> mroman_: yes, it is e; the probabilities that you're still below 1 after 0,1,2,...,k steps are 1,1,1/2,...,1/k!.
10:56:16 <mroman_> if you'd do an average of rnd()+rnd() you'd get 1.
10:58:03 <int-e> In fact for a threshold 0 <= t <= 1, the expected number of steps to exceed t is e^t. But for t>1 it gets messy.
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11:01:09 <GoToTell> the possible sums 0 > n > 4 that's equals or exceeds 4 is: 1111 1112 1113 112 113 122 123 13 22 23 33
11:01:50 <GoToTell> 30 steps in total, divided by 11 possibilities = 2.7272727272727272727272727272727
11:02:08 <Taneb> GoToTell: that's for integers, I think the problem is for reals
11:02:32 <mroman_> 2.7272 looks like almost e though
11:03:02 <GoToTell> it will approach the same avg steps for reals for larger and larger integers.
11:03:46 <ski> GoToTell : `0 > 4' ?
11:04:49 <ski> obviously `n' can't *both* be greater than `4' *and* lesser than `0' ..
11:05:34 <GoToTell> Symbol blindness. My apologies.
11:06:08 <int-e> fungot: so what do you know about exponential growth?
11:06:08 <fungot> int-e: my mistake, the srfi site. really great to see a benchmark
11:06:16 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:06:51 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
11:06:58 <int-e> fungot: bread or taxes?
11:06:58 <fungot> int-e: at last the post shall carry, when thirteen days are gone and past of fnord. " for any one with true fnord fnord, fnord, fnord,
11:07:22 <int-e> oh well it was worth a try
11:07:25 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
11:08:10 <myname> where is the oots style from?
11:10:35 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
11:10:40 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
11:10:52 <int-e> myname: this wiki, I'd assume: http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/New_Edition
11:11:20 <int-e> (which has transcripts of the comics as you can see in that link)
11:12:56 <fizzie> Yes, I think I scraped it from some wiki.
11:13:09 <fungot> Selected style: oots (Order Of The Stick)
11:13:13 <fizzie> fungot: What do you sound like?
11:13:13 <fungot> fizzie: was that supposed to get you down here.
11:13:27 <fizzie> fungot: No, and I think that's probably a direct quote.
11:13:27 <fungot> fizzie: as the shrew! even i don't get to live. your trial and then, gods willing, for that kind of stuff, i figured that one out on my own, but
11:13:37 <fungot> fizzie: you would probably have to skip the combat dialogue. someone hand that i think, " hmm, i think, " hmm, i think that i shall i prepare " roy" to live.
11:20:38 <boily> fungot: hmm, I think ♪ hmm, I think ♪
11:20:38 <fungot> boily: i get to go. y'know, the rune over behind xkyon's throne labeled " castle blowing her cover.
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11:37:35 <b_jonas> meanwhile, new OotS strip today
11:38:09 <int-e> . o O ( `olist $N+1 )
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12:01:12 <int-e> . o O ( In your thoughts, you're all alone. )
12:15:28 <Melvar> Blarf. Is there any spec on the implementation of wait status manipulation macros, or can they do effectively anything?
12:17:27 <fizzie> POSIX guarantees a number of things about them.
12:17:34 <fizzie> "Each of the following statements shall apply to all macros unless explicitly stated otherwise:
12:17:37 <fizzie> Any definition of an object-like macro in a header shall expand to code that is fully protected by parentheses where necessary, so that it groups in an arbitrary expression as if it were a single identifier.
12:17:41 <fizzie> All object-like macros listed as expanding to integer constant expressions shall additionally be suitable for use in #if preprocessing directives.
12:17:44 <fizzie> Any definition of a function-like macro in a header shall expand to code that evaluates each of its arguments exactly once, fully protected by parentheses where necessary, so that it is generally safe to use arbitrary expressions as arguments.
12:17:48 <fizzie> Any definition of a function-like macro in a header can be invoked in an expression anywhere a function with a compatible return type could be called."
12:17:58 <fizzie> I think point #3 is what you might be most interested about.
12:19:07 <fizzie> (POSIX, System Interfaces > General Information > Use and Implementation of Macros.)
12:21:31 <Melvar> Okay, but that’s about macros in general. The structure of the status value is not specified, I assume.
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12:23:56 <Melvar> The problem being of course that I can’t invoke a macro from non-C code.
12:24:38 <fizzie> WEXITSTATUS is always the low-order 8 bits of the status value, but that's all you get.
12:25:16 <fizzie> Not very helpful, perhaps, because the WIFEXITED test isn't specified, and WEXITSTATUS is only relevant if that is true.
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12:26:21 <fizzie> Oh, maybe I read the documentation of WEXITSTATUS wrong, sorry.
12:26:42 <Melvar> I’m pretty sure that’s referring to the low bits of the value the program returned, not of the wait status.
12:27:09 <Melvar> In particular, my system has “#define __WEXITSTATUS(status) (((status) & 0xff00) >> 8)”.
12:27:21 <fizzie> Yes, I just read it too quickly.
12:28:09 <fizzie> But there's a guarantee about the value 0, so if you're okay with just differentiating "terminated normally with a return value of 0" from "everything else".
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12:28:50 <Melvar> Oh, now that sounds interesting.
12:29:21 <fizzie> "The value stored at the location pointed to by stat_loc shall be 0 if and only if the status returned is from a terminated child process that terminated by one of the following means: [three reasonable things]"
12:30:54 <fizzie> The "everything else" bucket does include "still running" as well as all the possible different ways of failing, though.
12:32:42 <Melvar> It’s a good start, since it allows me to at least tell if nothing went wrong with a system() call.
12:41:25 * Melvar gets ideas about using libclang to get at the expansions of the macros and then interpret them, but that would require being able to create callbacks, because you can’t traverse a clang AST normally.
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15:08:37 <izabera> thinking about the dropsort thingy
15:08:56 <izabera> instead of adding them to a list, add them to a list in the correct order
15:09:21 <izabera> like the insertion sort thingy
15:09:42 <izabera> and do this for the first, say, 20 elements
15:09:46 <izabera> then add them to a new list
15:10:09 <izabera> so you end up with several small sorted lists
15:13:20 <HackEgo> olist 1007: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
15:19:03 <Taneb> izabera: that's essentially mergesort
15:19:20 <izabera> yes but the first part is faster
15:19:45 <Taneb> I think it'd still work out O(nlogn)
15:23:08 <Taneb> If you make the lists for as long it's ascending/descending, then you get GHC's sort function
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15:36:01 <oerjan> shachaf: why int-e would _allude_ to `olist without actually doing it... maybe he's turned into a vampire.
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15:36:46 <shachaf> well, neither int-e nor b_jonas are on the list
15:36:56 <shachaf> but i admit it looks bad. pretty suspicious
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15:39:25 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
15:40:21 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#cgi-bin.*#comics/ootslatest.html#' wisdom/olist
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16:05:40 <b_jonas> \oren\: I see you've added more characters. but the green vs white is inconsistent again.
16:06:57 <b_jonas> \oren\: also, it looks as if either some of the characters in the kanji&hanzi region of the sample page were either of the wrong width or substituted from another font
16:07:10 <b_jonas> because they don't line up to a nice grid
16:07:22 <b_jonas> or it could be just that the font is older than page
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16:24:18 <shachaf> what do you think of this olist
16:24:58 <Taneb> I think that it's an olist
16:26:08 <shachaf> are you a d&d rules expert
16:26:16 <shachaf> shouldn't what's-his-name be dead by now
16:29:18 <oerjan> it's just a flesh wound
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16:32:51 <hppavilion[1]> I would like to see LISP based on another structure besides Lists.
16:33:03 <hppavilion[1]> Table is sort of like that for Associative Arrays, I suppose
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16:33:42 <Taneb> shachaf: in 4e, you can survive up to negative half your health
16:33:51 <Taneb> (rounded towards zero)
16:34:06 <shachaf> does it only go to -10 or something?
16:34:32 <shachaf> also did this harm bring what's-his-name to 1 hp
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17:06:15 <oerjan> can it go to -11 if you get a spinal tap
17:15:21 <newsham> > goldfish' "my amp goes to eleven"
17:16:49 <oerjan> alas, lambdabot has memory like a ...
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17:29:26 <int-e> otherwise lambdabot would be insane by now
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18:48:28 <HackEgo> whoami: cannot find name for user ID 5000
18:48:43 <HackEgo> wc: /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
18:49:43 <gamemanj> no passwd file = no sudo, I presume
18:50:02 <gamemanj> at least, that would make sense
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19:24:09 <Taneb> `` can i condemn this man to slavery
19:24:10 <HackEgo> bash: can: command not found
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19:54:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Zachgates * New user account
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20:29:45 <Vorpal> <gamemanj> no passwd file = no sudo, I presume <-- it runs in some sort of container too iirc. It used to use User mode linux, not sure it it migrated to something more modern or not
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20:36:58 <fizzie> (The sandbox itself is called "UMLBox".)
20:37:48 <Vorpal> fizzie, I know, I use it for another purpose myself
20:38:34 <Vorpal> fizzie, I actually run apparmor + umlbox to try to protect against bugs in umlbox as well
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20:59:37 <izabera> @tell oerjan yafgc is a drug, you should warn people before posting links like that
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21:24:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm modifying a stripped-down variant of a toy language called "IMP" by Jay Conrod (http://www.jayconrod.com/posts/37/a-simple-interpreter-from-scratch-in-python-part-1) and I'm trying to implement operator right associativity for a recently-added ^ operator (which I know is usually bitwise xor in programming, but I think it makes more sense to use it as exponentation for arithmetic). I have NO clue how to do it.
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21:33:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm a n00b, and it's based largely on the work of someone else who does parsers, so
21:33:23 <Melvar> Well, how are you doing the operators in it?
21:33:47 <hppavilion[1]> It' someone else's work, that I just barely understand
21:34:33 <hppavilion[1]> That produces a series of EXP parsers (which generate lists of things separated by other things) with ALTERNATE parsers separating them, such as to produce operator precedence
21:35:22 <hppavilion[1]> I tried something that I doubted would work, but it worked better than I thought. That is, instead of crashing or producing random answers, it did absolutely nothing
21:36:28 <hppavilion[1]> I may have to produce a "REVEXP" combinator that works in reverse
21:42:55 <hppavilion[1]> I'm now going to make a language called "MegaStackLang", which should basically be the most powerful RPN language ever made.
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21:45:11 <myname> what's that apl/j like language of the guy that used to do stuff here? :s
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21:48:33 <Melvar> hppavilion[1]: Will it allow a foreach-until loop?
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21:50:50 <Melvar> Because I once got to use this crazy forth variant that allowed any loop opener to be used with any loop closer, and what I was doing was most easily expressed by opening with foreach and closing with until.
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22:04:34 <Melvar> hppavilion[1]: Okay, so, the right-associative operator should be doable without Exp, because Exp is meant to avoid left-recursion, but you can parse a right-associative operator with right-recursion.
22:05:11 <hppavilion[1]> It's a standard stacky lang with the added part where {...code...} is lazily evaluated (that is, it's pushed on the stack to be evaluated later)
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23:29:11 <shachaf> It would be great to have a language where <<<<<<< etc. are valid identifiers, to make merges difficult.
23:30:54 <j-bot> FireFly: myname: this one?
23:31:11 <shachaf> i mean common rather than valid
23:31:13 <FireFly> Although that is J, not J-like
23:34:45 <int-e> > let (<<<<<<<) = (*) in 3 <<<<<<< 5
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