00:21:03 <zzo38> How many people using vi/vim is using control and [ instead of escape key because it can be easier to reach while typing other stuff? I am one
00:23:59 <boily> I don't. Caps Lock is gleefully remapped to Escape on every keyboard I touch.
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00:41:20 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
00:41:43 <HackEgo> glumgot/glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
00:41:54 <HackEgo> catamorphism/A catamorphism is when you recurse too greedily and too deep.
00:42:02 <boily> fungot: oren glumgot catamorphism?
00:42:02 <fungot> boily: yes. that basic level is hardly very useful, though; i tested it
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00:42:44 <boily> `relcome codergeek42
00:42:47 <HackEgo> codergeek42: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:43:34 * boily does an interpretative welcome dance
00:43:59 <boily> what brings you here? what's your stance about roast beef?
00:48:07 <boily> my reef's so totally better than yours.
00:50:57 <egrep> boily: Not true! My reef's so good, it elevated itself to a small, floating reef-garden!
00:51:16 <egrep> (Maybe those balloons helped a bit...)
00:52:11 <oerjan> little known fact: the hanging gardens of babylon were also a reef
00:52:48 <boily> hellegrep. uh... are you somebody else I know, or are you the one who is who you are?
00:53:14 <oerjan> i'm sure he's a regular
00:53:48 <boily> well, Koen_ seems to be the nearest match.
00:53:56 * oerjan was expecting a mapole
00:54:18 <boily> I'm oiling and shining it for better ærodynamism.
00:54:28 <egrep> I'm a regular nuisance, according to egrep.
00:55:03 * boily *THWACKS* egrep with a half-reversed doublespin southpaw Hyper Mega Drive mapole
00:55:43 <egrep> boily: I am the one who was who I will have been and will be and am.
00:55:54 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure you forgot a ™
00:56:58 <egrep> I lost all of mine a few days ago.
00:57:24 <egrep> My theory is that it was a extreme-stealth mugging that I didn't notice.
00:58:07 * egrep flop to the ground from boily's *THWACK*
01:00:27 * boily pickpockets egrep, exchanges his royal steaks, then moves a pineapple
01:01:07 <oren> Its the weekend!
01:01:23 <lambdabot> CYYZ 010000Z CCA 29014KT 15SM FEW055TCU FEW090 BKN130 BKN270 26/13 A2976 RMK TCU1AC1AC5CI1 TCU TR CI TR CB DIST E SLP076 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
01:01:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 010000Z 23011KT 30SM FEW060 SCT090 BKN140 BKN240 25/16 A2969 RMK SC1AC4AC2CI1 SC TR SLP054 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
01:02:15 <oren> I'm gonna work on my new esolang
01:02:58 <oren> It's the sucessor to scrip7. it will be compiled
01:03:12 * egrep moves the pineapple back
01:03:48 <oren> I was just at the fruit market. I bought bananas but I should have bought ananas
01:06:12 <oren> Effectively most of the basic syntax will be the same as scrip7
01:06:37 <oren> but jumps and conditionals will be made so that they make sense
01:08:54 <oren> also, the g and h registers will be different and the _ pseudo register will be removed
01:10:13 <oren> jumps will simply use labels
01:10:51 <oren> rather than the crazy way it works in scrip7 which was badly implemented[C
01:11:00 <boily> if it's simpler than scrip7, shouldn't it be scrip6?
01:11:24 <oren> I was thinking scr1p7
01:12:50 <oren> eh scrip8 is fine
01:13:20 <oren> it's not entirely simpler, since it adds a preprocessor stage (which does the labels)
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02:08:54 <zzo38> Why does xterm disable national character sets unless you enable it first (by setting the corresponding DEC private mode)?
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02:36:35 * oerjan learns about the third homomorphism theorem
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02:52:14 <oerjan> the font/rendering of this paper is unbearable
03:07:22 <pikhq> Guys, do you think it would be wise for me to try and eat my salary in cheese?
03:07:55 <pikhq> (important fact: this is *free* cheese, at the office)
03:08:10 <pikhq> (important fact #2: this would sadly be 25lbs of cheese a day.)
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03:15:03 <egrep> pikhq: Not particularly.
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03:36:13 <oerjan> it would at least be cheesy
03:43:01 <shachaf> if it's free cheese, it would be ∞ lbs cheese/day hth
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03:45:07 <oren> all the pop songs of 2013 in 10 min https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEcKDfMS_jY
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03:55:05 <pikhq> shachaf: Well, free-to-me. It has a market rate.
03:55:46 <pikhq> I suspect I'd get fired if I tried to engage in arbitrage against this, though.
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04:03:27 <shachaf> There's some rule about that.
04:09:25 <Jafet> So your employer has instituted an export embargo against the worldwide cheese market?
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04:11:02 <pikhq> Yes, but I'm still free to disrupt the worldwide bit market.
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04:39:29 <shachaf> pikhq: Which team are you on?
04:42:28 <oren> Hmm I can't seem to find code to input WTF-8-CP-1252
04:43:13 <oren> (E.g. inputing UTF-8, allowing surrogate pairs and treating all errors by diverting to CP-1252)
04:43:58 <pikhq> shachaf: It's bizarre. I'm on a team that is currently being spun up, which means that I'm about as clueful as everyone else.
04:44:20 <pikhq> m on dasher SRE, in practice I'm doing random bits and pieces of calendar.
04:44:43 <pikhq> (for no other reason than that I sit next to them)
04:46:11 <oren> Hmm.. I guess I'll roll my own exceptionless UTF-8 decoder
04:47:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Are you working with mhan?
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04:50:05 <pikhq> Not that I know of.
04:50:15 <oren> I mean is it that hard for people to be "liberal in what you accept, conservative in what you produce"
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04:50:58 <pikhq> Yeah, he's in SFO on Gmail these days.
04:51:07 <zzo38> I do have a new version of utftovlq
04:51:27 <pikhq> I do work with dinabetser though
04:51:32 <shachaf> pikhq: Maybe you're near Gracenotes? He used to be in this channel.
04:52:02 <oerjan> oren: well irssi has that feature...
04:52:22 <oerjan> well not sure about surrogate pairs
04:52:58 <pikhq> I'm yet to meet him, but he's in the same building.
04:53:02 <pikhq> Different floor though.
04:53:06 <zzo38> Which currently doesn't really do anything properly with invalid UTF-8 byte sequences at all, but it does allow surrogates, overlong encodings, and any codepoints up to 36-bits long.
04:53:10 <pikhq> Maybe I'll just randomly show up.
04:53:35 <zzo38> Some even more new version could add option to decode invalid byte sequences somehow too.
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05:13:40 <oren> Actually, for web use it now makes more sense to use CP 1251 as the backup encoding
05:13:55 <oren> Or maybe a mix?
05:14:41 <oren> yah. I'll treat some of the characters as 1252 and some as 1251
05:16:41 <oren> Eh screw it, I already have 1252
05:18:58 <pikhq> Or you could heuristic it.
05:19:40 <pikhq> Oh, for purposes of IRC it's probably best to fall back to either a configured choice or a choice based on the language.
05:20:04 <shachaf> Backup encodings are scow.
05:20:19 <oren> AH! russian text in CP1251 would have consecutive high bytes, whereas text in european languages would mostly have high low hih low
05:21:05 <oren> hence, if a utf-8 invalid sequence is consecutive high bytes, I'll treat it as 1251, else as 1252
05:21:53 <pikhq> There's a few different libs for heuristic detecting a charset based on a language model which might be a better approach.
05:22:01 <oren> shachaf: but they do decrease the amount of bytes needed to hold a given text
05:23:08 <pikhq> Unfortunately, I don't know of any of 'em that are in a super easy to use state. Might be nice to grab Mozilla's code and port it to C or somethin'.
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05:28:57 <zzo38> For IRC you could have just set based on what screen you are on, if you have multiple screen, or based on what channel, etc
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07:06:09 <oren> BLAH! ncurses is mangling my utf-8
07:10:09 <oren> screw this. back to termios
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12:09:03 <mauris> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley%E2%80%93Milner_type_system#Syntax <-- isn't let x=e1 in e2 just (\x.e2)e1
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14:28:50 <Jafet> > let f = \x->x in (f 1, f "mauris")
14:29:05 <Jafet> > (\f-> (f 1, f "mauris")) (\x->x)
14:29:06 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num [Char]) arising from the literal ‘1’
14:29:06 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘f’, namely ‘1’
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14:29:55 <Jafet> (... or scroll down to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindley–Milner_type_system#Let-polymorphism)
14:33:57 <Melvar> ( (\f : {a : Type} -> a -> a => (f 1, f "foo")) (\x => x)
14:34:03 <idris-bot> \a1 => \x => x is not a numeric type
14:35:18 <Melvar> ( (\f : ({a : Type} -> a -> a) => (f 1, f "foo")) (\x => x)
14:35:18 <idris-bot> \a1 => \x => x is not a numeric type
14:35:49 <Melvar> ( (\f : ({a : Type} -> a -> a) => (f (the Integer 1), f "foo")) (\x => x)
14:38:37 <Melvar> ( (\f : ({a : Type} -> Show a => a -> a) => (f (the Integer 1), f "foo")) (\x => x)
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16:14:18 <Jafet> Portmanteau of the day: http://help.fdos.org/en/hhstndrd/cnfigsys/switchar.htm
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16:49:54 <oren> I'm writing my own ncurses-alternative
16:50:14 <oren> I didn't mean to, it just happened
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16:58:30 <oren> ncurses doesn't handle utf-8 properly, and I'm too lazy to diagnose the issue, so I wrote my own which handles it.
16:58:44 <oren> well, handles it my not handling it
16:59:23 <Melvar> So it’s going to bulge out the right sides of things if there are wide chars?
16:59:48 <oren> nah, see all wide chars are at least 2 bytes in utf-8
17:00:29 <oren> so the only problem will be things being too short
17:01:02 <Melvar> What was the original problem again?
17:01:27 <oren> utf8 is corrupted when I pass it to addstr
17:02:22 <oren> it comes out as a bunch of ?
17:03:20 <Melvar> And you’re using a UTF-8 locale?
17:04:14 <Melvar> Hm. Well, not gonna try to remotely diagnose this, so carry on I guess …
17:04:56 <oren> another issue I've now solved is that ncurses' handling of colors is stupid
17:06:02 <oren> I just have a setcolors(int,int) which takes the FG and BG colors from 0 to 20
17:07:56 <oren> tbf ncurses is easier than using termios and ANSI sequences directly
17:09:17 <oren> now I'm working on getting sigwinch to handle correctly
17:13:04 <oren> Ok, cutting a UTF-8 character in half to make the string fit makes it have a ?? but at least the whole thing isn't being corrupter
17:13:42 <oren> thank you, UTF-8 self-synchronization
17:18:07 <oren> but this method would have worked a lot better for an EUC-XX encoding
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18:08:00 <FreeFull> oren: What if people want to use 256-colour terminals?
18:10:22 <zzo38> Unicode is especially terrible for terminal encodings
18:11:17 <FreeFull> I know terminals completely ignore the Right To Left override character
18:12:06 <zzo38> To change text direction should be a escape sequence if anything
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18:13:51 <Melvar> Then that would suddenly only work in terminals, instead of in everything that implements a standards-compliant text layout algorithm.
18:14:31 <Melvar> There is at least one terminal that does implement bidi, it was one of the mac ones.
18:15:04 <zzo38> You should not use Unicode for terminals. For typesetting it can work but all of these stuff should be implemented in the font metric file instead; the font metric file decides what the nicode Right-to-left override character does.
18:16:47 <zzo38> Font metric file format used can support include files, so that you can have include files for various versions of Unicode. If the font is not Unicode, then you don't include any of them.
18:16:58 <Melvar> That would essentially require the font metric file to be able to execute arbitrary code inside your layout engine.
18:18:16 <zzo38> No, it is a kind of VM code, not native code, and it is a limited VM code for this purpose only.
18:19:17 <zzo38> Command can include registers, ligatures, kerning, subroutine calls, and vertical adjustments.
18:19:45 <zzo38> (It does not have to support loops)
18:20:13 <Melvar> Also, how would I avoid unicode in my terminal? No reasonable amount of text consists only of ASCII …
18:21:08 <zzo38> What is "reasonable amount of text" here?
18:22:55 <Melvar> That sentence, if you had cared to type it correctly.
18:24:18 <zzo38> No you should use only ASCII
18:24:23 <zzo38> It is simpler and more sensible.
18:25:23 <Melvar> I’m afraid my language doesn’t fit inside it either.
18:25:25 <oren> For one of my unfinished games I stored Greek and Cyrillic text as ASCII then printed it with a special font
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18:26:02 <zzo38> oren: Well, it is one way. I tend to just use the PC character set, so there may be some Greek letters but no Cyrillic
18:26:47 <oren> Well my point is that's sort of like your font metrics approach.
18:27:25 <oren> the font had a glyph for a that was an alpha, a glyph for b as beta and so on
18:28:29 <zzo38> Yes, OK, in portable terminals I can use VT100 instead of PC characters
18:28:54 <zzo38> In the VT100 you might have two fonts, so one is used for line drawing and so on.
18:29:26 <zzo38> Although in the most recent versions of xterm you can even draw pictures
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18:34:34 <oren> So my program has puttoscreen(X,Y,"[ari[a",CYRILLIC); and it writes царица to the screen
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18:39:57 <oren> My game didn't have any arabic. It had some chinese as images.
18:42:59 <oren> The font for Cyrillic somewhat resembled KOI7
18:56:41 <FreeFull> What if you're making a text editor?
18:57:02 <FreeFull> And you don't really have a standard way to get graphics in terminals right now
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18:57:50 <myname> oren: what is this game about?
19:06:06 <zzo38> You get graphics in terminals using Sixel format
19:06:50 <zzo38> (Still not all terminals will support it, but some VT terminals did and xterm does, although xterm supports Tektronix graphics as well.)
19:08:37 <fizzie> I used to have a VT510, I think it didn't support the fancy graphics stuff (that being the main difference between VT510 and VT520).
19:08:44 <FreeFull> I don't think libvte terminals support sixels
19:09:01 <fizzie> After it caught fire, it no longer supported even text.
19:09:14 <FreeFull> Sixels have limited bit depth too, because they were originally designed for line printers
19:15:30 <FreeFull> xterm doesn't display sixels without the --enable-sixel-graphics option
19:20:33 <FreeFull> I can't figure out how to make xterm display sixels
19:21:21 <FreeFull> Oh, it has to be compiled with sixel support
19:22:12 <oren> just use a font that supports braille
19:26:04 <oren> meh, it's DWIT
19:26:57 <oren> http://thedailywtf.com/articles/FrontAhead-Design
19:35:41 <FreeFull> Melvar: https://i.imgur.com/44lP0FH.png
19:35:46 <FreeFull> That's what it looks like in my terminal
19:37:34 <FreeFull> Hmm, it's the fault of bitstream vera sans mono, it seems
19:37:40 <FreeFull> It displays the empty spaces as empty circles
19:37:46 <FreeFull> Which looks bad at small font sizes
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19:39:57 <Melvar> FreeFull: It comes out similarly on my terminal except slightly better because maybe my font size is a bit bigger? It seems to pick FreeMono for me.
19:40:11 <FreeFull> Oh, DejaVu Sans Mono does the same thing
19:40:46 <Melvar> FreeFull: I’m pretty sure DejaVu doesn’t have them, some other font gets picked to fill in.
19:40:56 <FreeFull> Melvar: The problem is that I have DejaVu Sans Mono set as my font, and it provides its own symbols for those, which look bad
19:41:17 <FreeFull> Oh, seems DejaVu Sans Mono doesn't have them
19:41:27 <FreeFull> And it's using the FreeMono ones
19:41:48 <Melvar> Ah, indeed, DejaVu Sans non-mono does have its own.
19:42:31 <zzo38> I am just using the standard "fixed" bitmap font
19:42:53 <FreeFull> I'm going to see which package provides FreeMono and remove it
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19:44:35 <tswett> > let the⠀news = 3 in the⠀news
19:44:36 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘the’Not in scope: ‘news’
19:44:54 <tswett> > let the news = 3 in the []
19:45:47 <HackEgo> [U+2800 BRAILLE PATTERN BLANK]
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19:47:41 <Melvar> > let the⠀news = 3 in some⠀words
19:47:43 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Alternative f0) arising from a use of ‘some’
19:47:43 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at Top level
19:48:06 <Melvar> > let the⠀news = 3 in any⠀words
19:48:08 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Foldable t0) arising from a use of ‘any’
19:48:08 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at Top level
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20:59:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43678&oldid=43677 * Rdebath * (-268) These eight wrappers are the same length as very simple two cell wrappers. I see no point keeping them.
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21:12:08 <zzo38> Is there a resource in xterm that causes it to send the contents of that resource to itself when it starts or is reset? Such a thing can be used to change some settings that aren't available with other resources.
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21:14:58 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
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22:38:46 <lambdabot> CYUL 012237Z 29013G18KT 15SM -SHRA FEW007 FEW025CB BKN050 BKN075 19/16 A2975 RMK SF1CB2SC4AC1 SF TR PRESRR SLP073 DENSITY ALT 800FT
22:46:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 012220Z VRB02KT CAVOK 10/06 Q1012 RMK WIND 670FT 07004KT
22:48:32 <boily> it's not the size that counts, it's the relative humidity.
22:50:10 <oerjan> i guess today was indeed relatively dry
22:50:20 <oerjan> also it started out warmer
22:52:19 <oren> I need a command to eliminate duplicates in my bash history
22:53:27 <boily> sort .bash_history | uniq >bash_history_copy && mv bash_history_copy .bash_history
22:54:48 <oerjan> oren: include ignoredups or erasedups in the HISTCONTROL variable hth
23:00:39 <oren> boilty: that worked
23:00:58 <oerjan> there should be a version of uniq that doesn't require sorting
23:01:27 <oerjan> oren: my suggestion is for keeping it that way hth
23:01:54 <oren> although now my history is in alphabetical order from bash --version to xxd
23:02:21 <oerjan> as i said, there should have been a uniq version that worked without sorting
23:02:55 <oren> hmm what would be an efficieant algorithm for that?
23:03:32 <oerjan> with shell, probably you could use nl first to prepend line numbers
23:03:43 <oren> ah yeah that would work
23:04:10 <oerjan> and then whatever options to sort and uniq make them ignore the line numbers, and then a sort on the line numbers at the end
23:10:16 <boily> oretn: it's a known side-effect that sorting sorts data.
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23:58:39 <boily> damned Prera. that thing is unwashable.
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00:09:59 <oerjan> the one time i forgot a pen in the laundry went surprisingly well. it even wrote afterward.
00:10:23 <oerjan> i have, however, no intention of repeating such a mistake.
00:11:31 <oerjan> well i _think_ it wrote. my memory is a little vague.
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00:18:15 <oren> oil based ballpoint probably would not cuase problems in the laundry
00:24:17 * boily keeps his pens away from his washing machine and oerjan
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00:37:36 <zzo38> The DEC technical character set doesn't seem to work in this version of xterm
00:39:40 <boily> that's one bigass sum symbol... http://www.vt100.net/charsets/dec-technical-vt420-green.png
00:41:02 <boily> if I want to display nonunicode characters in a terminal, are there any magical escape sequences for that?
00:41:15 <ais523> boily: yes, but it depends on what you mean by "nonunicode"
00:41:20 <ais523> boily: what encoding are they in?
00:43:58 <zzo38> I want to use a different kind of character set that you can select subsets of, which can include all characters in: PC character set, all DEC character sets, Commodore 64, Apple MouseText, up to 256 user-defined characters, and probably also some more.
00:44:35 <ais523> zzo38: I think all those are in Unicode?
00:44:57 <zzo38> No, not all of them are.
00:45:08 <zzo38> Neither is Infocom character graphics, the other one I missed
00:45:33 <zzo38> Some characters from some of these sets are, including the entire PC character set, but not all of the others
00:45:48 <ais523> the "up to 256 user-defined characters" are
00:45:54 <boily> ais523: anything outside of unicode. mainly obscure platform-specific glyphs.
00:46:11 <boily> incidentally, probably what zzo38 is looking for at.
00:46:17 <ais523> there aren't any /standard/ codes for that because such a thing would have to be highly nonstandard
00:46:42 <boily> hmm... otoh, can I address individual pixels in a modern terminal and plot arbitrary data in it?
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00:47:06 <ais523> boily: unless it's xterm, no
00:47:08 <zzo38> boily: You can use Sixel, but you have to start at a tile
00:47:20 <ais523> xterm can emulate more than one terminal, and one of them is graphical
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00:47:31 <ais523> but it has codes that are nothing like a vt100
00:47:40 <boily> scow. too lazy to launch xterm.
00:48:03 <zzo38> Yes, it has codes from later DEC terminals as well, as well as several of its own codes.
00:49:47 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> Bool) -> t a -> Bool
00:54:22 <Sgeo> Left "hi" is Either String a
00:54:31 <Sgeo> So... uh... Num a implies having a zero?
00:55:09 <oerjan> also, defaulting to Integer
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00:55:27 <boily> not having anything implies having a nothing.
00:56:23 <boily> LA LA LA CAN'T SEE ANYTHING LA LA LA ♪
00:58:17 <oerjan> > foldr (-) 0 (Just 1)
01:00:59 <lambdabot> Foldable t => (a -> b -> b) -> b -> t a -> b
01:01:46 <oerjan> basically, most of the list functions got generalized
01:02:50 <boily> which is nice. but also stuff.
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04:34:28 <pikhq> Hoorah, I have met shachaf in meatspacde.
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04:36:55 <oerjan> does he look like his SO profile picture
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04:37:26 <oerjan> shachaf: this is outrageous!
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05:40:33 <Sgeo> Attempting to watch a TOS episode
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05:40:39 <Sgeo> The effects are so... bad
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05:42:08 <pikhq> By the standards of the day they were quite good.
05:42:21 <pikhq> Wait til you see contemporary Dr Who episodes.
05:44:47 <Sgeo> I'm only watching this episode because I've seen multiple references to it and suggestions that it's really good
05:46:23 <Sgeo> So I'm not sure what Dr Who episodes would be contemporary
05:54:19 <Sgeo> And there's some stutter like the Rift gets if fps is too low
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06:03:45 <Sgeo> Oh crap I recognize this name from fanfiction :(
06:05:36 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I've said that even if it wasn't me now you know...
06:07:15 <Sgeo> The name of a character in this episode
06:07:48 <Sgeo> Also predicting atomic power would require more than "speculation" if you're not a physicist, so guessing "speculation" is a bad guess
06:09:01 <Sgeo> Sorry for any spoilers for anyone who hasn't seen it yet
06:10:50 <Sgeo> Star Trek The Original Series "City on the Edge of Forever"
06:10:57 <Sgeo> And now I will stop looking at this channel
06:15:46 <Sgeo> What's with "6" in front of lyrics in the closed captions?
06:20:39 <shachaf> oerjan: pikhq must be confused.
06:21:27 <shachaf> i look a lot more like that picture than you do like http://stackoverflow.com/users/1088108/%C3%98rjan-johansen , i'm sure
06:21:41 <shachaf> and anyway who's to confirm i even met pikhq
06:24:02 <oerjan> clearly pikhq must have met an imposter, then
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09:41:35 <b_jonas> another stupid webpage that gives only some stupid unusable javascript map for searching their shops, instead of a usable LIST
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10:03:18 <b_jonas> mroman: ok wait, let me explain. FooCorp is a very big faceless corporation that not only has a webpage, but also lots of real life buildings where clients can walk in and use their services.
10:04:01 <b_jonas> As there's many such buildings, even within Budapest, I want to know which one to go to. This depends on the location, the opening hours, the services available there, and some other stuff.
10:04:45 <b_jonas> FooCorp should put a list of their buildings on there homepage, in plain HTML format, giving the address, opening hour, and list of services, for each building.
10:05:44 <b_jonas> They don't do that. Instead they have some unusable fancy combined server side and javascript search page, where you first have to specify in the search form which district you want shops in (so you can't just list all, but have to try all 20 possibilities), and then give some crazy javascript map page that I can't use, instead of a list of matches.
10:05:52 <b_jonas> This is true for at least two values of FooCorp.
10:06:29 <b_jonas> Their homepage is so unusable that I have to ask about the sites on phone or in person.
10:08:31 <mroman> It'd be easier to grep a text file .
10:08:49 <b_jonas> Yes, at least as an alternative.
10:11:15 <b_jonas> For at least one value of FooCorp, I had actually asked by phone, and then just found out that they gave an incorrect answer (unless it's changed recently).
10:12:46 <b_jonas> For another value of FooCorp, I'm not sure what to call by phone, because they don't generally do business by phone, and don't seem to have a general information phone line as far as I'm aware (maybe they do, but I can't find that from their homepage).
10:13:55 <b_jonas> And when I said "faceless", I mean the individual workers I meet often don't know more than what's necessary for their job, so in person they usually can't tell me about the other sites.
10:15:39 <b_jonas> I don't know whether if I call them by phone they have to use the same stupid javascript thingy (which however may actually work slightly better on their work machines) or they have something better.
10:15:59 <b_jonas> This may depend on the value of FooCorp and my question.
10:19:04 <b_jonas> Information like this changes quickly enough that lists made by third parties are usually obsolate.
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13:26:11 <HackEgo> copumpkin/copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
13:27:22 <boily> @tell copumpkin come back here you vile cocucurbitaceæ!
13:30:25 <HackEgo> justice/Justice is just behavior or treatment.
13:30:44 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/output
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15:23:23 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
15:23:24 <tswett> 01:00:02: <zzo38> I don't know. There's a program on the different commands and a constant thing that aren't the same as a human function that is the same as a language to get a specific article.
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15:31:30 <fizzie> fungot: Wisdom from the n-gram synthesis?
15:31:30 <fungot> fizzie: for example, write a glass interpreter in c. code has no memory model. all models are wrong.
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15:45:32 <b_jonas> I just learnt that M:tG isn't the only game with a flaming horse. There's a flaming horse pokémon too.
15:52:19 <b_jonas> I guess fire, ice, and water versions of every popular animal exists in fiction
15:54:29 <b_jonas> also dire and celestial and giant versions, plus miniature versions of every animal that isn't already small or smaller
16:02:45 <oren> Wait wtf?! unicode includes a ㋼ but no circled ン?
16:03:12 <oren> who even uses a ヰ let alone a circled one?!?!
16:05:00 <b_jonas> how are Pokémons in different generation Pokémon games so similar?
16:05:49 <b_jonas> oren: why would you need a circled n?
16:06:18 <b_jonas> aren't these for bullet headings or things like that?
16:06:39 <oren> I though they were for trademarks?
16:07:26 <oren> Like some store might but each kana of their name in a circle?
16:08:40 <b_jonas> oren: um... I don't see how that would work. you could use a circled single kana as a trade mark, but it would be a logo, not a character.
16:09:30 <b_jonas> I don't see why you'd do it for every character in a name though, unless you somehow associate a different product with each of them, like one for coke, one for fruit juice, one for ginger ale, one for tonic
16:11:46 <oren> One of the first results searching for ㋐ is a japanese forum where someone is asking why the character exists
16:12:17 <b_jonas> I can see that, but I still don't see why you'd need a circled n character
16:12:36 <oren> For completeness
16:13:12 <oren> If you're going to have wi, which isn't even used much anymore, you should have n, which is.
16:13:57 <b_jonas> wi isn't used in words, but it's still known to exist in the series of kana, so I imagine someone might use it if he starts numbering passages with letters
16:14:39 <b_jonas> eg. in a hungarian book or law, if points are marked with letters of the alphabet starting with a, b, c; it will use "q" eventually in a long enough list even though "q" doesn't usually appear in Hungarian words
16:14:55 <oren> that makes sense
16:15:31 <b_jonas> I don't know whether a list marked with kana would use wi, and it may depend
16:16:57 <b_jonas> btw, these lists get horribly inconsistent when they need just a few more items than there are letters in the alphabet
16:17:33 <b_jonas> most of the time they're used only when they need between 2 and about 13 items only
16:18:53 <oren> For lists in English texts I've seen numbers, letters, roman numbers, lowercase roman numbers, and in one case greek letters.
16:20:15 <oren> I think Excel goes A...Z,AA,AB,...AZ,BA
16:22:17 <oren> What numbering schemes does HTML support?
16:23:09 <b_jonas> oren: quite a few, check the css documents
16:24:02 <oren> the AA thing apparently works with type="a"
16:24:25 <b_jonas> oren: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/list-style-type
16:26:06 <b_jonas> apparently css even allows you to create new list numbering styles
16:26:10 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-counter-styles-3/#counter-style
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16:29:09 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css-counter-styles-3/#predefined-counters lists the predefined styles
16:35:15 <b_jonas> apparently the CSS standard draft guys are perfectionists
16:47:21 <oren> counter-style cjk-earthly-branch
16:50:02 <oren> OH! they didn't include circled ン because ン doesn't appear in the iroha
16:52:43 <oren> and thus when things are numbered by the iroha you don't need it
16:56:42 <b_jonas> oren: why is ン considered a "real" kana in first place when ー isn't?
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17:04:33 <oren> b_jonas: not sure
17:07:41 <oren> Well I mean it was introduced later than the other kana.
17:12:05 <oren> but then, the letters w and v are newer
17:13:17 <oren> is å counted as a letter?
17:13:50 <b_jonas> oren: it's certainly a letter, the question is whether it's considered an accented version of a or a separate letter
17:14:11 <b_jonas> but I'm not sure I care about those distinctions
17:14:26 <b_jonas> it's like when people discuss which digraphs count as letters
17:14:49 <b_jonas> the actually relevant points are how stuff are sorted in which traditional alphabetic order,
17:15:00 <b_jonas> and there's like a separate order per language, or sometimes two or three of them,
17:15:08 <b_jonas> plus what letters count as the same in crossword puzzles.
17:15:27 <oren> But I guess the question is if Excel had been invented in Norway would å be a column head?
17:15:50 <b_jonas> oren: oh, there's that too, yes
17:16:13 <b_jonas> oren: I'm quite sure that ö is never used in any of the listings for Hungarian,
17:16:32 <b_jonas> though a few use "sz" or "zs" or other digraphs, but those are rare too, they mostly come up when they run out of letters
17:16:52 <b_jonas> the most important actual variation is actually whether they include only "i" or only "j" or both "i" and "j"
17:17:01 <b_jonas> there are conflicting traditions on that
17:18:06 <b_jonas> there's also some variations on how strings with spaces are sorted
17:20:06 <b_jonas> luckily how strings without spaces are sorted is quite fixed in Hungarian, there's only one order
17:20:39 <b_jonas> (technically, how dzs is sorted may have changed around the 80s when they turned it officially to a letter, but I don't think that ever comes up as a difference in any list of real strings)
17:21:31 <b_jonas> (you'd basically need a string that can be continued with both "dzs" and "dzú" or something, and "dz" is a pretty rare letter in the first place)
17:21:52 <mauris> is "dzs" one square in a crossword puzzle
17:24:08 <b_jonas> mauris: no. even "sz" is two squares
17:24:12 <b_jonas> crosswords have their own crazy rules
17:24:23 <b_jonas> however, "sz" is one square in Scrabble
17:26:07 <b_jonas> where crosswords differ is whether some vowels are allowed to be considered the same (so the horizontal word can contain one vowel but the vertical word a different one), and I think it's sort of an implementation quality thing in crosswords, as in, a crossword is "better" if it considers each 14 vowels different
17:32:24 <Melvar> In German, crosswords universally require äöüß to be written as ae, oe, ue, ss.
17:33:01 <b_jonas> Melvar: wow, I didn't know that
17:33:08 <b_jonas> I wouldn't have guessed about ae oe ue
17:33:22 <b_jonas> Writing ß as ss makes sense of course
17:33:49 <b_jonas> the only time vowels are written as two vowels are very old telegram/telex messages.
17:38:16 <Melvar> < b_jonas> how are Pokémons in different generation Pokémon games so similar? – Could you be more specific? Do you mean the ones that obviously occupy similar ecological niches in different regions?
17:39:31 <Melvar> (And similar niches regarding players and npcs.)
17:40:58 <b_jonas> Melvar: no, I mean most pokémons from generation 1 pokémon seem to exist in all later generations with the same name and type and generally the same proeprties or very similar properties
17:42:01 <b_jonas> despite that there's been decades of the consoles and games improving tech wise
17:42:17 <Melvar> Oh. They’re the same ones. AFAIK Pokémon have never been removed from the national dex, only added.
17:43:20 <Melvar> I’m not sure what you mean by why there. It’s all the same world, canonically.
17:43:24 <oren> well some have been given new types
17:43:32 <b_jonas> the same world, so the pokémons exist in the story
17:43:51 <b_jonas> the strange part is that they're all (or most of them) still in the game and catchable and playable
17:43:58 <oren> electrode was pure electric in earlier games and became electric/steel
17:44:09 <b_jonas> and the properties that matter in play, such as moves or how they evolve, are very similar too
17:44:16 <Melvar> oren: You’re thinking of the magnemite line, not electrode.
17:45:12 <oren> I mostly stopped playing after silver. (I beat a few of the newer games, but stopped playing after I beat them)
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17:45:29 <Melvar> b_jonas: Generally they keep getting new moves as moves are added, but they generally keep being able to learn all the ones they could in earlier generations.
17:45:44 <Melvar> I’m just not sure what you find strange about it.
17:46:27 <b_jonas> Melvar: dunno, are there any other series of games where the games are two decades apart, and have actually using two decades newer technology, but are so similar to each other?
17:47:08 <oren> Hmmm... what about the handheld 2D Zelda games
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17:47:45 <oren> compare the gameplay of Links awakening to misih cap
17:48:07 <b_jonas> Well, I can think of one example, tetris games are somewhat similar until you start to do crazy tricks
17:48:57 <oren> Hmm... the PC Touhou series started in 2002
17:49:04 <oren> So that's one decade
17:49:16 <Melvar> There are a bunch of subtleties with mechanics being added and changed that make the later games play somewhat differently in some respects. So matchups might have quite different results.
17:49:36 <oren> and no characters have been removed from the Touhou universe
17:49:51 <oren> (since the PC era anyway)
17:50:08 <b_jonas> well, some tetris games. not all.
17:50:55 <Melvar> b_jonas: If you have all the right hardware and software versions and stuff, you can probably still transfer a third-generation pokemon over all the way to the sixth. Also between the first and second, but between second and third there is no connectivity.
17:52:17 <oren> Street Fighter! AFAIK most characters from the original are in the most recent one
17:52:28 <b_jonas> Melvar: yes, that makes it even more amazing.
17:52:45 <b_jonas> oren: oh true, there's Mortal Kombat too
17:52:58 <b_jonas> which has lots of common characters
17:53:11 <b_jonas> some characters are removed in some later games, but still
17:54:19 <Melvar> b_jonas: Basically, most of the times they were like “transfer pokémon from the previous generation!” So necessarily everything needed to support the previous stuff.
17:56:03 <b_jonas> M:tG is sort of an example, with two decades of support of strange old cards on paper, and one decade in video games
17:57:19 <Melvar> Whether that’s the actual reason, I don’t know. It may well also have been a highly successful strategy to lure people from one generation to the next.
17:57:44 <Melvar> Also there’s the remakes.
17:58:32 <oren> Nintendo knows that I will buy a game over and over again
17:58:32 <b_jonas> wait, Panglacial Wurm is from Coldsnap?
17:58:43 <Melvar> (Gen 3 included remakes of the main Gen 1 games, Gen 4 of Gen 2, Gen 6 of Gen 3.)
17:58:44 <b_jonas> I thought it was an old card
17:58:52 <b_jonas> which would explain why it has such a strange ability
17:59:02 <b_jonas> but it's a new one, printed _knowing_ it's a strange ability
17:59:35 <b_jonas> did that strange mechanic exist on an older card?
17:59:43 * Melvar is currently playing a Gen 3 pokémon game … emulated on his phone.
18:00:10 <oren> I don't feel guilty emulating nintendo games that I've bought three times
18:00:31 <pikhq> To be sure, shachaf looks more like SO shachaf than oerjan looks like SO oerjan, I'm sure.
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18:05:00 <oren> I'm not on StackOverflow
18:05:24 <oren> I should put a picture of myself on my website...
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18:18:51 <zzo38> Conservapedia says that Wikipedia's article about Riemann "contains little discussion of Riemann's faith and tries to downplay his fundamentalism as though it were merely a passing interest as a teenager". I have looked; it seems to contain a reasonable amount of discussion to me, and the other criticisms Conservapedia makes are also invalid, although perhaps this information could be made easier to find; currently information about his religious be
18:28:35 <zzo38> Conservapedia also seems to misunderstand what the word "mythology" even means.
18:39:07 <b_jonas> Hmm, I'm actually using two pinned windows now. Maybe I should reinstate the keyboard shortcut for pinning a window when I rework my window manager configuration.
18:39:13 <b_jonas> I didn't use to use pinned windows much
18:46:27 <zzo38> What window manager is that?
18:47:00 <b_jonas> pinned means it stays on the screen when I switch between "virtual desktops"
18:48:17 <b_jonas> and I'll want to rework the window manager configuration a bit anyway, though I won't change anything really significant, but I want to set it up so I can control two nested instances (such as inside and outside vnc) so there's two variations of the wm config with the more important keyboard shortcuts duplicated in some consistent manner (eg. with or without shift)
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18:57:56 <zzo38> I also don't know of other cards with Panglacial Wurm's special ability
18:59:26 <zzo38> It does mean you can use mana abilities while searching your library; see which cases it helps with
19:00:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, and I was wondering if a mana ability could somehow cause to end your turn during searching your library, and what would happen then with the rest of the effects on the spell you're resolving
19:00:40 <b_jonas> eg. at what step would you put the land you searched for into play
19:01:00 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too, but I don't know of any mana abilities that end your turn immediately
19:01:05 <b_jonas> or whether there's some multiplayer shenenigans
19:01:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: not immediately, but as some multi-step consequence of say sacrificing permanents
19:01:42 <b_jonas> but it's hard because most of the tricky things don't happen immediately, but only as triggers or state-based effects
19:01:59 <zzo38> Yes that is what I thought.
19:02:19 <b_jonas> the rulings mention that you can mill your library while searching using Panglacial
19:02:24 <zzo38> But it can be of interest if a puzzle is made up that involves this using the mana abilities while searching your library.
19:03:15 <zzo38> Yes, you can know what the top card of your library is and use this to determine whether or not you want to discard it due to Millikin
19:03:46 <b_jonas> sure, but that's not really breaking anything
19:03:52 <b_jonas> there are easier ways to know what's in your library
19:04:47 <b_jonas> I was wondering if there's some way to search your library but not shuffle afterwards, but it's probably both impossible and wouldn't be interesting, because the rules don't actually permit you to rearrange your library when searching technically
19:04:58 <zzo38> Yes, although it is still one way, such as if that is all you have available
19:05:20 <b_jonas> (except that you can lose the game, but then your library won't be interesting anymore)_
19:08:16 <b_jonas> Unrelated to Panglacial, there's one rules thing that I don't understand.
19:09:33 <b_jonas> There are actions in the rules that are supposed to happen "at the same time", and this can involve putting multiple cards onto the battlefield, and that happens fast enough that the Ally trigger on each of them happens.
19:10:05 <b_jonas> But consider Land Equilibrium. This has a replacement ability that can replace putting a card onto the battlefield with two events that aren't supposed to happen at the same time.
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19:10:20 <b_jonas> What happens when Land Equilibrium replaces putting one of multiple cards onto the battlefield?
19:10:34 <b_jonas> In what order and speed do the events happen then?
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19:11:27 <zzo38> I don't know, maybe if you read the rules you can figure out
19:11:33 <b_jonas> Uh, irc server shut down. How much did I get through?
19:11:40 <b_jonas> What happens when Land Equilibrium replaces putting one of multiple cards onto the battlefield?
19:11:46 <b_jonas> In what order and speed do the events happen then?
19:12:01 <b_jonas> Obviously I don't believe that "at the same time" actually means at the same time, it's just fast enough that some things aren't checked in between by the rules.
19:12:16 <b_jonas> But still, I don't know what happens with a replace like this, and I haven't seen a relevant rule.
19:12:52 <b_jonas> Luckily such replacement effects seem to be rare.
19:13:14 <b_jonas> Sheltered Valley has another one.
19:13:37 <b_jonas> But Land Equilibrium is probably the best.
19:15:39 <zzo38> There is one of my own card that has a mana ability that counters all spells with split-second ability
19:17:52 <b_jonas> which card is that? I don't see it in http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/cards.txt
19:18:07 <b_jonas> and can it counter a spell during paying its cost?
19:20:26 <zzo38> It is a mana ability, so it can work even while spells with split-second are on the stack, and when you can use mana abilities (such as with Panglacial Wurm)
19:20:57 <zzo38> It is "Stone of Interruption"
19:22:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: great, I think you can use that during paying for a Stone of Interruption that you started to cast
19:23:24 <b_jonas> Is it also possible to somehow use it to counter a split second spell while it's resolving? I don't remember what split second spells there are
19:23:31 <zzo38> I also have "Kjugobe's Psychic Control" which grants another spell a split second ability
19:24:51 <zzo38> Also I think you can still face morph cards when spells with split second are on the stack
19:25:00 <b_jonas> I was thinking of an instant with "Turn target spell face down.", let's call this Pongify Spell. How much would that break the rules, now that we can manifest sorceries?
19:26:24 <b_jonas> wow, you've made a lot of new cards. I'll have to look at them later.
19:26:27 <zzo38> I don't quite know, although I did make a card that has "Manifest target spell"
19:27:11 <b_jonas> What? "Manifest target spell"? what does that do if that spell isn't a card (but a copy of a spell)?
19:28:18 <zzo38> I don't know, although I have made up a rule that makes spells that aren't represented as cards to come into play as tokens
19:28:50 <zzo38> Possibly studying the other rules, can figure out more
19:28:51 <oren> UVC, or Unicode Vernacular C, is a dialect of C in which certain unicode characters may be used in place of certain sequences of ASCII characters.
19:30:12 <b_jonas> Spells that come into play as tokens, such as when they resolve? Now that's scary.
19:30:53 <zzo38> Yes, such as if you make a copy of an enchantment spell or creature spell or whatever
19:31:00 <b_jonas> That'd need a careful modification of that tricky rule that gives all the exceptions of when an effect can follow an object moving through zones.
19:31:06 <oren> for example, ≥ ≤ and ≡ may be used instead of <= >= == respectively
19:31:43 <b_jonas> oren: there seems to be something like that for Haskell, used in all kinds of articles printing haskell code
19:32:07 <b_jonas> I don't think I've seen it with C yet
19:33:42 <b_jonas> eg. for haskell, there are characters representing each of ++ -> <- ::
19:33:56 <b_jonas> and more symbol combinations that I don't remember right now
19:38:32 <oren> for completeness for C++, we need characters for >= <= == != << >> ++ -- // /* */ && || :: ->
19:44:31 <b_jonas> oren: and possibly for /= *= += -= <<= >>= &= ^= |=
19:44:48 <b_jonas> also possibly for [[ and ]] which aren't really digraphs
19:45:26 <b_jonas> also definitely for -> .* ->*
19:47:25 <oren> for logical and and or ∧ ∨ would make sense
19:47:36 <b_jonas> oren: I wouldn't like that, no
19:48:02 <oren> well obviously we would not use ^ for that
19:48:12 <b_jonas> apparently the better convention is to use & | circledplus for bitwise ops
19:48:30 <b_jonas> and forget abut vee and wedge in that context
19:49:01 <b_jonas> I actually have that in my font
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21:00:03 <zzo38> Accept = backspace / or / backspace = as an alternative to != then
21:06:06 <tswett> Ooh, we're talking about Magic.
21:07:13 <tswett> Are spell permanents, and spell cards in hand, actually spells?
21:07:26 <zzo38> Only on the stack count as spells
21:07:59 <zzo38> When you target a spell, you can only target a spell on the stack.
21:08:45 <tswett> So "turn target spell face down" would necessarily act on a spell on the stack.
21:12:35 <tswett> Then the rules say it would "have no characteristics other than those listed by" the thing that let you turn it face down. So if the instant just said to turn it face down, it would end up with no characteristics at all.
21:13:17 <b_jonas> tswett: what zzo38 says, except note that "spell" is used in a different meaning in the phrase "spell type".
21:13:45 <b_jonas> tswett: what? wouldn't it still be a 2/2 creature
21:14:03 <zzo38> I thought it might be a 2/2 creature with a mana cost of {3} and nothing else
21:14:05 <b_jonas> maybe not while on the stack
21:14:12 <tswett> b_jonas: that only applies to permanents turned face down, not spells.
21:14:23 <zzo38> (Although you don't have to pay the mana cost in this case anyways)
21:14:33 <tswett> Also, apparently if a permanent is turned face down, it has no mana cost.
21:14:42 <b_jonas> oh wait, does Nix works on a face down spell?
21:14:48 <b_jonas> one cast with morph specifically?
21:14:57 <zzo38> b_jonas: I would think it works on any spell cast without paying any mana.
21:15:00 <b_jonas> Nix doesn't work like that
21:15:09 <b_jonas> yeah, Nix doesn't care about the mana cost or converted mana cost
21:15:09 <zzo38> A spell cast with morph was paid with three mana, so it can't be used
21:15:16 <b_jonas> which conterspells care about that?
21:15:46 <tswett> So what happens when a spell with no characteristics and no text resolves?
21:15:48 <zzo38> And then, there is my "Phyrexian Nix" variant
21:16:17 <tswett> Does it go to the graveyard, and thus get turned face up again?
21:16:23 <zzo38> tswett: I would do, it just comes into play; if for some reason it cannot, it goes to the graveyard instead.
21:16:43 <b_jonas> so how does Dispersal Shield work with a spell cast face down using morph?
21:16:50 <tswett> But what do the rules say happens?
21:16:52 <b_jonas> (I knew I had such a counterspell)
21:17:26 <b_jonas> tswett: it should come to play face down as part of resolving, without getting turned face up, I think
21:17:28 <zzo38> I don't know; what does that card say?
21:17:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: Dispersal Shield is an Instant with "Counter target spell if its converted mana cost is less than or equal to the highest converted mana cost among permanents you control."
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21:18:52 <b_jonas> it's one of those multiple cards from the Onslaught block that care about Scornful Egoist
21:25:55 <b_jonas> There's a lot of other counterspells that care about cmc, including Disdainful Stroke; Disrupting Shoal; Induce Paranoia; Overwhelming Intellect; Prohibit; Rethink; Spell Burst; Spell Blast (wow, it has remainder text for cmc, they're finally starting to put SANE remainder text on cards, great!); Thoughtbind.
21:26:34 <b_jonas> The most famous such counterspell is probably Mana Drain.
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21:58:06 <oren> huge thuderstorm here. my power's probably going to go out
21:58:43 <oren> those bloody incompetents at toronto hydro can't waterproof anything
21:59:03 <lambdabot> CYYZ 022151Z 22013G51KT 210V300 5SM +TSRA FEW009 BKN026CB OVC250 18/14 A2976 RMK SF2CB4CI2 FRQ LTGIC ALQDS WSHFT 2143 PRESFR SLP078 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
21:59:35 <oren> gusting 51 knots! crazy
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22:00:34 <Taneb> oren, the highest the weather station I use has ever seen was 62 knots
22:00:43 <Taneb> And that was... last year
22:03:36 <oren> it has settleed down a little
22:04:06 <oren> yeah it's down to a drizzle.
22:06:31 <oren> but my power could still go out, when the water sinks into the earth and fucks up the cables
22:06:51 <oerjan> hm i haven't looked at the blitzersomething site in a while
22:08:29 <oerjan> oh they have a world map now
22:09:14 <oerjan> something's definitely happening in the lakes area
22:09:23 <Taneb> Oh, the thundermap thing
22:20:25 <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
22:20:59 <oren> fuck I can't spell that bullshit
22:22:43 <oerjan> `addquote <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
22:22:49 <HackEgo> 1251) <oren> I'm making a new font. I'm up to the capital E with diarhea
22:23:39 <oerjan> let this be a warning to other fontomaniacs
22:24:31 <shachaf> I'm not sure what the distinction is between SO shachaf and shachaf.
22:24:38 <shachaf> they're the same person hth
22:25:11 <oerjan> you're just shachaf. the other one is SO shachaf. hth.
22:25:12 <shachaf> Also http://slbkbs.org/sb/1.png is my picture almost everywhere. I'm not sure why you picked SO.
22:25:13 <Taneb> shachaf, SO shachaf is unbelievably shachaf. He is so shachaf I can't even handle how shachaf he is
22:25:43 <oerjan> shachaf: easiest to find at a moment's notice?
22:25:46 <oren> the number 8 should formally be decomposable as o with ring above
22:26:00 <shachaf> I use http://slbkbs.org/yawg-prime.png at work so I don't confuse different accounts.
22:26:52 <shachaf> It's a bit more professional.
22:27:40 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't see why
22:27:46 <Taneb> That is a really professional picture
22:28:10 <oerjan> i think it's a bit spotty
22:28:44 <Taneb> Anyway I am going to go to bed now
22:31:00 <Taneb> oerjan, the monster quit a while back due to unworkable conditions
22:32:33 <Taneb> Which really days tell me that I ought to tidy my room
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22:41:04 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/output | grep Summary
22:41:14 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/output
22:41:15 <HackEgo> changeset: 3516:086a7a03de20 \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Aug 28 21:11:30 2013 +0000 \ summary: <olsner> touch wisdom/output
22:41:20 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/output | grep summary
22:41:22 <HackEgo> summary: <olsner> touch wisdom/output
22:42:45 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
22:43:46 <oerjan> much of the wisdom is not `wisdom-compatible
22:44:54 <shachaf> I thought it was a trap set for oerjan that prints "No output." when you rm it.
22:45:37 * pikhq sits down and attempts not to explode
22:45:59 <oerjan> pikhq: too much nitroglycerin?
22:46:48 <shachaf> spot of the nitroglycerin, governor?
22:51:38 <oerjan> i see you're going boom or bust with your meme
22:52:07 <shachaf> please don't call it that tdnh
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23:01:30 <olsner> now why would I touch wisdom/output
23:06:58 <oerjan> ...why have i never thought of that one.
23:07:44 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-06-30#225319oerjan
23:10:38 <oerjan> must have been an impersonator
23:12:37 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:12:44 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:12:51 <HackEgo> hand/A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
23:12:58 <HackEgo> phantom__________hoover/OK you got me there.
23:13:13 <oerjan> see? another non-`wisdom compatible one.
23:15:12 -!- wqe23 has joined.
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23:17:57 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 1 3`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:17:59 <HackEgo> 1: Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. \ 2: Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is. \ 3: Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
23:18:01 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 4 6`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:18:02 <HackEgo> 4: phantom____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 5: phantom_____hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 6: phantom______hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:18:05 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 7 9`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:18:07 <HackEgo> 7: It doesn't get any better than this. \ 8: phantom________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 9: phantom_________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:18:08 <shachaf> `` for n in `seq 10 12`; do u="$(perl -e "print '_' x $n")"; echo -n "$n: "; \? phantom${u}hoover; done
23:18:10 <HackEgo> 10: OK you got me there. \ 11: phantom___________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ 12: phantom____________hoover? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:20:37 <oren> So now I have the characters from ASCII and Latin-1
23:21:03 <oren> I think I'll take a break, then add Greek and Katakana
23:21:19 <oren> Oh, and all the DF characters
23:23:55 <oren> yeah gotta get cp-437 as soon as possible
23:24:25 <b_jonas> oren: you have those characters in what?
23:24:30 <b_jonas> oren: are you making a font?
23:24:49 <oren> hold on I'll screenshot
23:24:55 <b_jonas> I already have all of cp-437 and iso-8859-1 in my font, those were in my original goal
23:26:42 <b_jonas> I also have all of iso-8859-2, cp-1252 (new version), cp-1250 (new version), and I think I also might have all of iso-8859-4, iso-8859-15, iso-8859-16 (which is actually covered by a union of the previous ones) but I'm not quite sure
23:27:20 <b_jonas> I even have glyphs for all the control characters in iso-8859-1, though those don't display in terminal windows :-)
23:27:35 <b_jonas> however, I only have a few of greek, and no Katakana
23:27:55 <b_jonas> and the greek is very ugly, I added it only to see maths formulas a bit
23:29:01 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/screen1.png
23:29:22 <oerjan> when you do greek, make sure to be able to spell διάῤῥοια properly twh
23:30:22 <oren> seems I have all of latin-1 but not all of Windows-1252
23:30:23 <b_jonas> wow, that looks nice. can you also show a screenshot with some longer text in a natural language?
23:30:50 <oren> yeah hold on I'll screenshot this
23:31:40 <b_jonas> is that all printable cp-1252 characters shown?
23:31:56 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/screen3.png
23:32:06 <oren> yeah but I'm apparently missing a lot
23:32:23 <b_jonas> nice and of distinguishable characters
23:33:27 <oren> 7 has a stroke and 1 has a tick, the way I write them
23:34:08 <b_jonas> I should put up a sane screenshot of my font and link it
23:34:15 <b_jonas> currently all I have is http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/fecupboard20-cp437.png
23:35:04 <b_jonas> (and http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/stickfont-screenshot0.png of a different old font, one that's for crazy decorative headings rather than for body text)
23:35:08 <oren> I made a compromise by shrinking the capitals to make room for their accents
23:35:33 <oren> blackboard bold, nice
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23:38:05 <b_jonas> ok, so what should I put in the screenshot(s)? I'll certainly put http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/versw , then maybe http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/verst and its English original so there's English text too. But I also need some way to list many characters, such as all cp437 or all cp1250 etc. What encodings? Should I show literally all glyphs in unicode order?
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23:38:56 <b_jonas> And I might want to show some program code too. What's a good example of C code I can show?
23:39:15 <hppavilion[1]> I have developed a spontaneous interest in quantum computing
23:39:41 <hppavilion[1]> After I figure out how the hell quantum physics works
23:40:06 <oren> I recommend reading some books on the subject
23:40:21 <oren> I have not done so, however, so...
23:40:31 <oren> I don't know anything about it
23:40:37 <hppavilion[1]> I figured out that this non-esolang I started designing a while back would be particularly useful in QC
23:41:01 <b_jonas> oren: I don't think I like the "ð" in your font
23:41:23 <hppavilion[1]> So one could make an easy operation for quantum logic gates
23:41:26 <b_jonas> though I'm not saying I know how to improve it
23:42:00 <b_jonas> oren: this one looks more like a reversed delta to me
23:42:18 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i predict that your talk will not be able to stay coherent hth
23:42:24 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: oren is, http://www.orenwatson.be/screen3.png http://www.orenwatson.be/screen1.png
23:42:41 <b_jonas> hehe, that's a HORRIBLE pun
23:44:57 <b_jonas> oren: is "—" from your font or substituted? it looks too similar to "-"
23:45:43 <oren> Maybe I should shorten my hyphen-minus
23:46:30 <oren> yeah then it wouldn't look the same as my em-dash
23:47:13 <b_jonas> I consider "-" the most important (mostly because it occurs a lot in program code), so I don't make compromises about it. I have a bulge under "–" and two bulges under "—". "‐" is short but two pixels thick.
23:48:40 <b_jonas> I also have distinguishable glyphs for "‒" and "−" and ""
23:49:09 <b_jonas> I for one think "-" should be long, but it's your choice of course.
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23:50:11 <oren> hmm bumps would work
23:50:25 <oren> or maybe I'll just change the height slightly
23:50:46 <b_jonas> also, I find your "¼½¾" hard to read. what if you made the slash thinner or removed it entirely to allow for the digits to be bigger?
23:51:14 <b_jonas> I think I also have a glyphs that's a hyphen with a dot over or under it, but I don't recall which character it was. Let me check.
23:52:11 <oerjan> @let type S = (Num n) => State n
23:52:12 <lambdabot> Expecting one more argument to ‘State n’
23:52:12 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘State n’ has kind ‘* -> *’
23:52:45 <oerjan> oh it wasn't the library type
23:52:56 <oerjan> @let type S = (Num n) => [n]
23:52:57 <lambdabot> Variable ‘n’ is implicitly quantified due to a context
23:52:57 <lambdabot> Use explicit forall syntax instead.
23:53:08 <oerjan> ok it's just a warning
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23:53:25 <b_jonas> hmm no, I don't have just a glyph. maybe I had one in a previous version.
23:55:25 <b_jonas> I guess I could show all characters in my font in rows of 16 unicode characters, with the code before each row. that would identify each character (except possibly missing characters, which I'll have to mark somehow, maybe with a blue middle dot or something).
23:58:05 <b_jonas> Oh well, I'll figure this screenshot thing out later. Good night for now.
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23:58:48 <b_jonas> And good luck with your font, oren.
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01:06:56 <zzo38> I would want a variant of the "fixed" font that is also including the DEC technical characters, and preferably also support for PC character set and PETSCII, and possibly also the Infocom character graphics
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01:24:50 <zzo38> A new kind of Magic: the Gathering card: "At the beginning of each combat damage step, the active player chooses and taps a land he controls, and then if it is not your turn the active player draws a card."
01:28:37 <zzo38> s/taps a land/taps an untapped land/
01:33:51 <shachaf> zzo38: A real Magic: The Gathering card would say "a land he or she controls"
01:35:32 <shachaf> zzo38: I'm not sure I follow that card.
01:35:42 <shachaf> "active player" is the same as "the player whose turn it is", right?
01:36:22 <zzo38> Yes. For the card drawing effect, it must be your teammate or your opponent, but the other effect includes everyone (unless that player controls no untapped lands)
01:36:47 <shachaf> So the card helps everyone except you?
01:37:01 <shachaf> I must be missing something.
01:37:02 <zzo38> If you have a card that lets you draw cad instead of opponent, then you will draw a card, but it still doesn't work during your own turn.
01:37:50 <zzo38> And if you have Underworld Dreams, then opponent will both draw a card and lose 1 life point.
01:39:58 <zzo38> (You can also donate it to allow you to draw a card, or steal such a card from opponent to prevent yourself from drawing a card.)
01:40:51 <shachaf> Drawing a card and losing a life is almost always beneficial for your opponent, isn't it?
01:41:17 <shachaf> I'm not sure whether there are any cards that have negative effects and require Donate to be useful.
01:41:36 <zzo38> Clearly it depends on the circumstances, such as their current life points, how many cards remain in their library, and effects that depend on how many cards are in some player's hand.
01:42:29 <shachaf> There are things like Demonic Pact.
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01:51:34 <zzo38> OK, I can see that now too
02:01:23 <oren> Now I have all of cp-437
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02:05:24 <oren> Later I'll go back and increase coverage to entire unicode blocks
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02:18:02 <oren> LATIN EXTENDED A is done
02:19:36 <oren> Ok apparently there is Latin-1 then Latin-A then Latin-B. WTF
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03:17:36 <oerjan> i sense a bit of a cognitive dissonance. i think i switched every single configuration toggle in the setup.
03:19:16 <shachaf> I hear the start menu is back.
03:20:25 <oerjan> shachaf: everything suggesting sending information to microsoft and/or sharing data with/between apps
03:21:43 <oerjan> also, IE seems replaced with something new and edgy, i wonder if i can find my tabs again...
03:25:14 <oerjan> ok this is unacceptable hm...
03:26:11 <Jafet> Windows should really come with a dessert menu
03:27:43 <Sgeo> "There must be no space between the #` and the opening bracket character. (There may be the visual appearance of space for some double-wide characters, however, such as the corner quotes above.)
03:27:51 <Sgeo> That's surprisingly acknowleding of Unicodeness
03:28:02 <oerjan> hm typing into putty is annoyingly slow
03:28:06 <Sgeo> But I think if Perl6 has any strengths at all, Unicode is looking like one
03:28:27 <Sgeo> I'm thinking vararg handling might be another, but not sure yet
03:34:24 * oerjan vaguely suspect this upgrade was a mistake. oh well.
03:34:47 <shachaf> oerjan: I've stopped being able to boot to Windows so I don't have to worry about this problem.
03:35:01 <oerjan> more seriously, my touchpad driver menu has disappeared again and the usual method to fix it doesn't seem to be working.
03:39:47 <oren> YEAH! now I have everything from the first 3 unicode blocks
03:40:29 <oren> Now maybe I'll do Latin B
03:43:40 <oren> why does ʼn exist?
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03:45:33 <HackEgo> [U+0149 LATIN SMALL LETTER N PRECEDED BY APOSTROPHE] [U+0020 SPACE]
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03:53:51 <oerjan> the touchpad scroll actually works, but in the opposite direction.
03:54:09 <shachaf> oerjan: Oh no, they copied Apple on that evil change?
03:55:01 <oerjan> well i assume it's connected to the loss of my driver menu, which i've always sort of suspected competed with MS's setup
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03:56:31 <oerjan> perhaps that has been removed as not working in W10, in which case i guess i need to find the actual windows menu for it...
04:07:17 * pikhq wonders if RC4 is ever going to die.
04:07:49 <pikhq> I mean, it *should*, but it's not already dead and there's attacks on it on the order of "individual researchers can do decryption on it in the span of a couple days".
04:08:33 <zzo38> It is not always used for encryption though, and even if it is sometimes various improved versions are used
04:09:39 <Sgeo> Found another typo in a Perl 6 design doc, someone else fixed
04:10:11 <pikhq> It's really bad for RNG use too -- the RC4 random bit stream can be identified and in some cases predicted.
04:11:26 <pikhq> It's worth noting that the "arc4random" function is not necessarily using the RC4 algorithm, contrary to the name. :)
04:14:03 <zzo38> It can work if you don't need it to be so unpredictable and that stuff.
04:14:32 <pikhq> But then you may as well use a Mersenne twister.
04:16:58 <oren> Should I do Latin B next or complete the coverage of Greek?
04:32:33 * oerjan finds a touchpad upgrade download but it's horribly slow
04:33:06 <oerjan> oh well, at least it's progressing. shave ->
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04:51:40 <Sgeo> "And yes, an int1 can store only -1 or 0. I'm sure someone'll think of a use for it...
04:53:36 <zzo38> There is a 1-bit integer type in LLVM, although I think it is commonly consder unsigned
04:56:29 <Sgeo> "someone the other day made the mistake of saying the specs are specifications. I quickly corrected them of that nonsense; they're speculations."
04:58:01 <oren> All of Windows 1252 is now supported
04:58:54 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: perfectly usable for BASIC combined boolean-logical arithmetics.
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05:00:16 <zzo38> Yes, in BASIC, as well as in Forth, it is commonly use -1 for true and 0 for false, so that you don't need separate bitwise and logical AND and OR operators. Although, at least Forth has a 0= operator.
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05:39:59 <oerjan> finally scroll works in the right direction again.
05:41:59 * oerjan optimistically checks out girl genius. hey it's already updated!
05:42:24 <shachaf> can you make olist update twh
05:43:26 <oerjan> sorry, just used up that spell slot
05:46:38 <shachaf> spot of the spot check, governor?
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07:33:08 <Sgeo> "„I know!”, a gemstone-fascinated person would say, „We can monkey-patch IO::Socket::INET”. And then we have two problems. "
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08:13:21 <oren> my font now supports all the block elements
08:13:37 <oren> and most of the geometric shapes
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08:17:51 <Taneb> You still come across as kinda flat
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08:35:47 <oren> 750 characters!
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08:43:54 <oren> well I'm done for today, i'll do more tomorrow
08:43:57 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/neoletters.ttf
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08:47:23 <hppavilion[1]> It's impossible for know for certain if a file exists
08:51:10 <Aearnus> It'd be easy to find files with small identifiers but harder to find files with large ones
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08:56:26 <hooplavilion[1]> And the more files you have, the less certain you can be when it si
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08:59:48 <mroman> Windows 10 Solitaire has Ads.
08:59:59 <fizzie> mroman: Don't worry, you can pay to get rid of them.
09:00:25 <mroman> fizzie: Well, that's fair then.
09:00:28 <fizzie> It's a "freemium" operating system.
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09:00:56 <mroman> Seriously, this ad bullshit has to stop.
09:01:25 <Aearnus> mroman: what a great way for a poor corporation to get money, though
09:02:10 <mroman> "An ad-free internet would cost each user at least £140 a year – a sum that the vast majority of UK web users say they would never pay, according to new research. "
09:02:13 <mroman> I call bullshit on that.
09:03:28 <Aearnus> Practically, where would the money go? To the ISP? Where would the ISP send that money?
09:03:53 <Aearnus> Pay-per-view internet? ;-;
09:03:56 <mroman> Websites could just use paypal or something.
09:04:02 <mroman> or pay-per-view through micro-payment services
09:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Someone will make a free and better version of Windows Solitare without ads because that's a humanitarian effort obviously
09:04:15 <mroman> hppavilion[1]: There probably are already
09:05:06 <mroman> net neutrality doesn't prohibit you from collecting money.
09:05:16 <mroman> A youtube account will cost 10$ a year.
09:05:36 <Aearnus> I mean, there are already websites behind paywalls
09:06:48 <Jafet> Does that mean people in the UK are giving up £140 each year to ads?
09:07:06 <Jafet> (Make that ~£200, after overheads.)
09:07:25 <mroman> I think they just calculated how much ad companies pay to show their ads.
09:07:34 <mroman> and then divided that by the number of UK citizens
09:08:07 <Aearnus> Because no UK citizens use ad block, of course
09:08:22 <Jafet> Well, the ads are either worth the expense (in which case the above is true) or they're not (in which case the number is meaningless)
09:08:41 <mroman> I'd say if the ad companies pay that much money they are worth it
09:08:44 <hppavilion[1]> There's an assigned scientific variable called Ukc which stands for "Number of Citizens of the United Kindom of Great Britain and Blah Blah Blah"
09:08:57 <mroman> I'm pretty sure the ad companies aim for profit.
09:09:14 <mroman> they will probably make more money than what they pay
09:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> They don't pay for users who would never click their ads
09:09:50 <mroman> I haven't yet intentionally clicked on any ad
09:10:08 <mroman> only google search results.
09:10:16 <hppavilion[1]> I don't click on ads becasue it is technologically impossible for me to do so :P
09:10:21 <mroman> which might be skewed as well...
09:10:35 <Jafet> Now, it's plausible that good analytics for an affluent country like the UK can be worth £200 per person per year)
09:14:11 <mroman> I've heard ad companies pay ad block money to not block them :)
09:14:25 <mroman> or at least that's still a conspiracy theory.
09:14:55 <hppavilion[1]> Is someone who uses adblock _ever_ going to click on an ad, even without adblock?
09:15:28 <mroman> https://adblockplus.org/acceptable-ads-agreements
09:15:42 <Aearnus> Unless it's one of those tricky "download now" ads
09:16:07 <mroman> they get paid for the acceptable ads :)
09:17:50 <Jafet> Ad networks don't actually care about the minuscule expense of serving ads to users. They even use HTTPS now, so that the ads are harder to filter.
09:20:46 <Jafet> (Amusingly, those ads can now also take much longer to load, due to the TLS handshake.)
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11:09:15 <boily> that's not very wisdommy.
11:10:55 <boily> `le/rn hockey/Hockey is okey, but parsley is gharsley.
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11:26:03 <HackEgo> el camino real/There is no royal road to analytic geometry.
11:26:50 <boily> strange. I expected Taneb to have invented it.
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11:31:09 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
11:31:29 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*Rust*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
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11:37:35 <HackEgo> irrelevant info/KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
11:38:05 <APic> b_jonas: Did You get a Level-Up and can increase Stats now?
11:38:27 <APic> Had not seen the Backlog. B)
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12:06:57 <mroman> `learn fisdom is the domination by the feder inspection station.
12:07:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'fisdom': fisdom is the domination by the feder inspection station.
12:07:05 <mroman> `learn fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
12:07:07 <HackEgo> Learned 'fisdom': fisdom is the domination by the federal inspection station.
12:17:18 <Jafet> tswett: how big is the RNN you've been training on the logs?
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12:45:14 <mroman> fungot: Why would you want to do that?
12:45:14 <fungot> mroman: train goes soon. in a more or less anything at random in esoteric. no sir!
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13:36:52 <mroman> fungot: train to where?
13:36:52 <fungot> mroman: including baby fnord. if not, will you? i chat with people on the comittee that decided that i'm not i shall rape you into submission!!!
13:37:13 <mroman> It rapes you into submission
13:38:03 <mroman> fungot: are you a RSO?
13:38:03 <fungot> mroman: he was banned from haskell over a year ago
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14:09:55 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:12:46 <Jafet> Rape submission officer, presumably
14:13:35 <mroman> registered sex offender
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14:22:01 <fizzie> I wonder which channel that gem is from.
14:22:29 <fizzie> Okay, #esoteric. Big surprise there.
14:23:14 <fizzie> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2008-06-04#204157GregorR
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14:42:42 <mroman> "The breakthrough is unlikely to see people losing their jobs to software-creating computers, Harman explains. "We want to free programmers from their shackles, not to make them redundant," he says. Instead, it will free programmers up from boring tasks."
14:42:47 <mroman> that's complete bullshit
14:43:30 <mroman> every automation will eventually cause someone's job.
14:44:53 <mroman> If you make something automatic, someone can't work the same hours he used to.
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14:46:13 <mroman> If something can be done more efficiently, you don't need as much workers
14:46:21 <mroman> or if you keep the same amount of workers, you need more work.
14:46:47 <|f`-`|f> with increased productivity
14:46:54 <|f`-`|f> you can keep the same amount of workers
14:47:10 <|f`-`|f> and have them do elective/voluntary projects
14:47:11 <mroman> yeah, which means less pay for the worker usually.
14:47:21 <mroman> unless they also pay you more per hour.
14:47:28 <|f`-`|f> you can thank the corporate tax and benefits system for that
14:47:38 <|f`-`|f> it's why burn rates are high for small businesses
14:48:01 <|f`-`|f> and when I mean benefits I mean the "employee "benefits""
14:48:09 <mroman> technically if your productivity is up, you should earn more
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14:48:13 <mroman> and if you earn more, you can pay more
14:48:43 <mroman> but in general I think you will loose jobs.
14:48:43 <|f`-`|f> the issue is that unions eat 30% employee income
14:48:57 <|f`-`|f> and payroll taxes on top of beneifts, and employee taxes
14:49:14 <|f`-`|f> just bleeds money the more you make due to regression in the graduate taxes
14:49:44 <mroman> although if you make certain tasks so easy, they can be done by uneducated humans
14:49:50 <mroman> you actually make the more educated humans jobless
14:50:02 <mroman> while the uneducated get more "factory jobs" :)
14:50:06 <|f`-`|f> You can pay more, much like you can by raising the minimum wage, but that moves everyone on minimum wage to a new tax bracket where they get screwed
14:50:38 * mroman imagines a time where programming apps is 95% factory work where you just click things together
14:50:51 <mroman> and the other 5% writes modules the factory worker can put together :D
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14:52:45 <mroman> put yeah, a lot of programming is just doing the same things over and over again
14:52:58 <mroman> like writing UI for stuff
14:53:28 <mroman> they should be semi-auto-generatable from some existing source code or description
14:53:41 <|f`-`|f> Which is why pressing programming into math is helpful
14:54:47 <|f`-`|f> (Auto derivation, machine proofs, etc)
14:56:45 <mroman> but it'll cost me my job.
14:57:17 <mroman> I'm the one that does these boring repetitive things
14:57:28 <mroman> if you automate does I have nothing left to do.
14:58:19 <tswett> Jafet: IIRC, it's 3 layers, size 700.
14:58:38 <mroman> That's why one should be happy to have a boring job. Because boring pays.
14:59:46 <mroman> If you do research about how to make humans useless you should also do research what to do with the useless humans :P
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15:30:51 <coppro> how come whenever I write haskell code I feel dirty?
15:31:23 <myname> haskell is pure beauty
15:32:27 <coppro> myname: I feel like my code isn't beauty enough
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17:31:12 <tromp_> haskell is a work of art, but you can still write ugly Haskell code:(
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17:42:00 <shachaf> What you're saying is that you can write (ugly (Haskell code)), but not ((ugly Haskell) code)?
17:48:39 <ais523> ugly Haskell is an esolang
17:48:51 <ais523> in much the same way that compile-time C++ is
17:51:00 <shachaf> Can you make sense of the following Magic: The Gathering card that zzo38 proposed yesterday?: "At the beginning of each combat damage step, the active player chooses and taps an untapped land he or she controls, and then if it is not your turn the active player draws a card."
17:56:59 <shachaf> When would it be a good idea to play?
17:57:40 <ais523> oh wow that card is bad
17:58:13 <coppro> whyyy did I nuke my code directory
17:58:33 <ais523> also that's templated in correctly, ", and then" should just be "."
17:58:46 <ais523> coppro: restore from backup?
17:59:09 <coppro> ais523: I just wrote it today
17:59:23 <ais523> recovering a day of work isn't normally too bad
17:59:26 <shachaf> I understand the mechanical interpretation but not why you would ever play that card.
17:59:58 <ais523> shachaf: it's zzo38, there probably isn't a reason
18:00:11 <ais523> he's more interested in what is possible than what is useful
18:00:44 <shachaf> In the past zzo38 suggested cards that I didn't understand the point of at first but did eventually.
18:00:51 <shachaf> But I guess this isn't one of those.
18:02:02 <ais523> actually I guess it wouldn't be so bad a card in Commander
18:02:18 <ais523> any card that lets everyone else draw cards tends to be good there because it makes people less inclined to kill you
18:03:07 <zzo38> It lets your teammates draw cards too, not only your opponents, is another thing. (That assumes you have any teammates)
18:05:03 <ais523> zzo38: ah right, it's probably a useful card in archenemy? howling mine effects are pretty good there
18:05:48 <zzo38> But there are also various combos including Underworld Dreams, and if someone has cards with first strike then there are two combat damage steps
18:06:06 <shachaf> Howling Mine looks pretty odd with modern rules.
18:06:21 <shachaf> But I vaguely remember something about artifacts being tapped in the good old days.
18:06:43 <zzo38> In old rules, abilities of tapped artifacts stop working (including poly artifacts)
18:08:22 <ais523> right, when the rules changed so that tapping an artifact didn't blank its rules text any more
18:08:32 <ais523> some artifacts got erratad to say "as long as CARDNAME is untapped,…"
18:09:01 <shachaf> You also used to be able to tap artifacts without a {T} ability, or something like that?
18:09:16 <zzo38> shachaf: If they are mono artifacts, then you have to tap it to pay its activation cost
18:09:38 <zzo38> There are no longer "mono artifacts", any one that requires tapping says {T}
18:12:22 <zzo38> I think mono artifacts and poly artifacts were actually added in Alpha (and then removed later); before Alpha the type was just "artifact", the activation cost was listed next to the mana cost, and all activation costs required tapping unless it specified otherwise.
18:15:49 <zzo38> Also the modern lands with only the mana symbol in the text box was actually the original way before Alpha was released. Mana costs originally had "3RR" meaning "three manas, at least two of which are red".
18:16:02 <zzo38> And the Plains cards before Alpha had pictures of airplanes on them.
18:16:14 <shachaf> zzo38: I think that's a better system.
18:16:33 <shachaf> Maybe even better is to take mana apart so that {R} is a linear combination of one colorless mana and one red.
18:17:44 <zzo38> I have thought of a kind of "algebraic system" where it would be written as "2r+1"
18:17:53 <shachaf> I don't know if that system is actually better.
18:18:22 <shachaf> Prismata has five resources: gold, green, blue, red, and energy
18:18:35 <shachaf> Gold and green persist past end of turn, the rest don't.
18:18:52 <shachaf> Usually something costs some amount of gold and one or more of green, blue, red.
18:19:21 <shachaf> But I was thinking of this system before I ever played Prismata.
18:20:03 <shachaf> By the way, if y'all're interested, I think I have a couple of beta invitation codes left.
18:20:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: that'd get ugly when you get to mana with restrictions, such as the mana from the second ability of Sliver Hive
18:20:26 <shachaf> Yes, mtg has other things like that.
18:20:39 <shachaf> It also has mana that gives a creature haste if it's used to cast it.
18:21:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know of thing like that, I wouldn't use my system in Magic: the Gathering anyways; just idea for other kind of game to use something
18:21:44 <HackEgo> U+274E NEGATIVE SQUARED CROSS MARK \ UTF-8: e2 9d 8e UTF-16BE: 274e Decimal: ❎ \ ❎ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
18:21:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: eg. if a Forest produces a colorless mana and a green color, you can't spend the colorless mana to Imperiosaur, and the green color (together with some colorless mana produced by Sol Ring) to a Giant Growth
18:22:03 <tswett> Someone in Agora Nomic just voted ❎❎❎❎❎ a proposal.
18:22:09 <b_jonas> they're intrinsically fused
18:23:02 <tswett> I conclude that this vote is insufficiently clear to be effective.
18:23:27 <coppro> feel free to CFJ the eventual resolution
18:23:39 <tswett> If it matters, I probably will.
18:23:40 <b_jonas> There is some crazy mana magic in M:tG. The craziest is probably Celestial Dawn.
18:23:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: I don't think this system is good for representing Magic: The Gathering mana.
18:23:44 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know those kind of thing, but that is different from my own idea
18:23:49 <tswett> That vote could easily mean either FOR or AGAINST.
18:23:50 <shachaf> b_jonas: I think it might be good for another game.
18:24:24 <tswett> A cross mark tends to mean "no", but a cross mark in a box tends to mean "this one".
18:24:48 <b_jonas> (and False Dawn and Sunglasses of Urza. how do they even invent such cards outside of un-sets?)
18:25:07 <b_jonas> (I don't want to even know how those combine)
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18:27:17 <b_jonas> (Why don't they just stick to cards that change what mana is produced, like Naked Singularity, or cards that actually recolor mana, such as Orochi Leafcaller)
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18:27:59 <tswett> So, I'm thinking about tensor products of mana systems.
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18:28:14 <tswett> IIRC, there are six types of mana: colorless, white, blue, black, red, green.
18:28:33 <tswett> The mana pool always contains some natural number (including zero) of each of these types.
18:28:44 <b_jonas> (I think the relevant rule is 609.4.)
18:28:48 <coppro> some mana has additional characteristics attached
18:28:52 <shachaf> tswett: A natural number isn't enough, though.
18:29:03 <tswett> Right, mana isn't necessarily fungible.
18:29:03 <shachaf> Because each individual mana can have additional jams.
18:29:11 <coppro> such as whether it's snow, any spending restrictions, and special effects
18:29:14 <shachaf> fungot: are you necessarily fungible
18:29:14 <fungot> shachaf: and impose limit on output size
18:29:17 <tswett> So I'm pretty sure that under the tensor square of this system, each mana would simply have an ordered pair of these types.
18:29:41 <coppro> although technically none of that is intrinsic to the mana
18:30:03 <b_jonas> coppro: oh, I asked about how Imperiosaur works, as in, it checks the characteristics of the object that's produced the mana at what time (what the characteristics are when you pay, when the mana was produced, etc), but I don't remember the answer.
18:30:03 <shachaf> What is the dual of a constraint?
18:30:08 <shachaf> ski suggested "endowment" once.
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18:30:30 <coppro> b_jonas: it is not that the mana has the property "produced by basic land"
18:30:38 <coppro> but that the game rules look at the history of the mana to figure out what applies to it
18:30:50 <shachaf> coppro: What is the effective difference here?
18:31:15 <b_jonas> coppro: yes, but when does the object have to be a basic land? what if the object changes to a basic land or to no longer a basic land by the time I pay with the mana?
18:31:27 <coppro> ah. don't know that one off hand
18:31:37 <coppro> the same applies to snow mana
18:31:50 <b_jonas> There's now two cards that change how mana empties from your mana pool.
18:31:59 <zzo38> The rules should be written as a literate computer program in order to make it more clearly.
18:32:00 <b_jonas> There used to be more, but they affected only mana burn, which doesn't exist now.
18:36:34 <zzo38> It is what I would do if I invented the card game, I think. If you don't understand some circumstance, put it into the computer and it will automatically calculate the answer.
18:46:06 <zzo38> (Although it can work even if you do not have a computer)
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18:59:22 <tswett> Suppose I have a sorcery that says, "Tap target creature. You gain 1 life."
18:59:36 <tswett> Can I cast this and gain 1 life from it if there are no creatures on the battlefield?
19:00:07 <tswett> Is this because it's impossible to cast a spell if it calls for a target and there isn't a legal one?
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19:00:44 <zzo38> No, there is no valid target
19:00:47 <hppavilion[1]> "If Evil were Midichlorians, this moose would be equal to THREE Darth Vaders"
19:01:03 <b_jonas> tswett: an example for a card like that is Vicious Hunger. a more extreme example is Hex.
19:01:07 <zzo38> But it will work if there are creaturse but only tapped creatures in play, then you can target one that is already tapped, I think
19:03:22 <b_jonas> zzo38: some cards require tapping creatures as a _cost_ for an activated ability, such as Springleaf Drum, those helpfully say "tap an untapped" though I think just "tap" would work technically if it's in a cost
19:03:43 <b_jonas> because invalid actions are ignored, but invalid costs cannot be payed
19:03:51 <zzo38> If it is a cost then it has to be untapped at first
19:03:56 <tswett> By the way, it looks like if you somehow had a card with no characteristics, and you cast it, it would essentially behave as a sorcery.
19:04:02 <zzo38> But costs don't target anything
19:04:18 <shachaf> An annoying thing about Magic: The Gathering is that some cards let you target zero or more things.
19:04:19 <tswett> A spell only enters the battlefield upon resolution if it's an artifact, creature, enchantment, or planeswalker.
19:04:45 <shachaf> But if you target a nonzero number of things, and then they all become invalid targets, the whole spell fizzles.
19:04:52 <shachaf> Even though you could have targeted nothing in the first place.
19:05:00 <tswett> I don't know if its mana cost would be zero or unpayable.
19:05:02 <shachaf> That's a scow interaction of rules if you ask.
19:05:12 <b_jonas> tswett: no, I don't think so. I think it would behave as an enchantment. but I don't think you can get a card with no type in the stack in any way. you can only get cards with no types as permanents, or as hidden cards.
19:05:28 <tswett> b_jonas: why do you think it would behave as an enchantment?
19:05:37 <b_jonas> tswett: as in, it would resolve
19:05:52 <zzo38> At least I would have it come into play and do nothing
19:05:59 <zzo38> But the rules don't seem to really specify
19:06:28 <b_jonas> tswett: well, probably the rules don't really say, but the rules do say that Sorceries and Instants can't enter the battlefield
19:06:30 <zzo38> It would try to come into play, and since it isn't an instant or sorcery, it would succeed, I think
19:06:52 <tswett> I think the rules do really say.
19:07:29 <tswett> 608.3. "If the object that’s resolving is a permanent spell, its resolution involves a single step (unless it’s an Aura). The spell card becomes a permanent and is put onto the battlefield under the control of the spell’s controller."
19:07:37 <b_jonas> tswett: I definitely think you can get typeless cards only as permanents (where you can do it by taking away types) or as hidden objects (cards in a library, hand, exiled face down, or just drawn while you're casting a spell)
19:08:13 <b_jonas> tswett: but I think the typeless permanents (which are actually possible) sort of make a precendent,
19:08:30 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see an esolang that can physically manipulate reality
19:09:00 <b_jonas> tswett: also note how all effects that copy spells specifically allow you to copy only sorceries and instants, and that nothing can add or remove sorcery or instant type on an object except by turning it face down or making it hidden or unhidden
19:09:19 <zzo38> tswett: I think rule 608.3 isn't really answering this strange question, because it doesn't tell you if it is a "permanent spell" or not
19:09:29 <tswett> zzo38: typeless spells are by definition not permanent spells.
19:09:36 <tswett> By the definition of "permanent spell", that is.
19:09:45 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, but you can't get such a spell so it's not a problem
19:09:48 <tswett> I guess the rules don't give a resolution effect for typeless cards, so my assumption would be that they don't have any resolution effect at all.
19:10:04 <b_jonas> tswett: they'll fix the rules when there becomes a way to get such a spell
19:10:18 <zzo38> Then I suppose they would just act like sorceries, since they would have to get discarded
19:10:22 <tswett> b_jonas: can you give me an example of how a typeless permanent would come about?
19:10:27 <zzo38> Or possibly they would get exiled instead, I don't know?
19:11:08 <zzo38> But I would have avoided these problems by writing the rules as a literate computer program
19:12:01 <b_jonas> tswett: a way is to temporarily animate an artifact with March of the Machines, make it no longer an artifact with Neurok Transmuter, then unanimate it by removing March of the Machines
19:12:20 <b_jonas> tswett: there's other ways involving taking away some type, but this is the easiest to see
19:12:28 <b_jonas> I don't think any of them are significantly different
19:13:16 <tswett> Huh. I think March of the Machines would mean that artifact lands are no longer lands.
19:13:44 <b_jonas> tswett: no, there's a separate rule for "is an artifact creature" that makes it not so
19:14:02 <b_jonas> 205.1b (in some version of the rules)
19:14:11 <shachaf> On leap years, February of the Machines
19:14:33 <zzo38> I have made up the card that can remove all supertypes and subtypes of a spell
19:14:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm... that would be strange. let me check what are all supertypes and subtypes these days.
19:15:25 <b_jonas> Supertypes are: basic, legendary, ongoing, snow, and world.
19:16:03 <zzo38> These include (but are not limited to): World, Legendary, Snow, Aura, and creature types.
19:16:32 <zzo38> (As well as planeswalker subtypes)
19:17:44 <b_jonas> Subtypes are: tons of creature types, a few dozen planeswalker types, three artifact types (Contraption, Equipment, Fortification), enchantment types (Aura, Curse, Shrine), land types (five basic land types plus currently Desert, Gate, Lair, Locus (hi land mirror thingy), Mine, Power-Plant (Urza-tron), Tower, Urza's), and spell types (Arcane and Trap).
19:17:49 <b_jonas> I think that's exhaustive.
19:17:54 <tswett> I wonder what's the simplest card that would just break the game.
19:18:07 <tswett> That would be pretty breaky.
19:18:08 <b_jonas> Oh no it's not, there's also plane types.
19:18:10 <zzo38> Well, you cannot target rules
19:18:18 <zzo38> But other than that, yes it break the game
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19:19:07 <zzo38> The rules don't make rules a valid target; a target can be a player, object, or zone, I think.
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19:19:24 <tswett> Well, then, "Choose a rule and delete it."
19:19:49 <zzo38> Yes, that would break the game completely
19:20:00 <b_jonas> tswett: the simplest card that breaks the game is Little Girl I think
19:20:14 <tswett> "All cards become their own controllers." Except maybe cards can't be controllers.
19:21:04 <zzo38> Cards can't control stuff, except with my variant rule where planeswalkers can control stuff other than planeswalkers or players.
19:21:15 <b_jonas> that breaks either the game or a card (the Chaos Confetti way) if you try to measure its Soul's Majesty
19:21:47 <b_jonas> no really, there's tons of fun un-cards that break the rule in lots of interesting ways
19:21:54 <tswett> "Put all cards on the battlefield."
19:22:07 <zzo38> "Play all cards as written. Ignore all errata."
19:22:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, was that an un-card?
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19:22:40 <tswett> zzo38: maybe even better would be "Every card's flavor text is part of its rule text."
19:22:56 <tswett> Anyway, I gotta go see about networking.
19:23:18 <zzo38> I had idea about the programming language to define the effect of the cards with.
19:23:18 <b_jonas> tswett: I don't see how that's simpler than Little Girl
19:24:06 <zzo38> Some stuff such as Chaos Confetti and "Choose a rule and delete it" are probably not possible to define with this programming language.
19:24:43 <shachaf> zzo38: Which programming language is this?
19:24:59 <shachaf> I wanted to invent a programming language for something like Magic: The Gathering cards, but then I decided that it was too complicated.
19:25:05 <zzo38> Some that isn't quite invented yet
19:25:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't see Chaos Confetti as really that bad, compared to some other un-cards
19:26:37 <b_jonas> though there's some un-cards where I'm not sure how bad they really are, like B.F.M. and S.N.O.T.
19:27:11 <zzo38> You could do Chaos Confetti if it has explicit rule support, which would require a host function macro (the function does not actually have to be implemented, but you must be able to identify it)
19:28:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: there's two ugly parts of Chaos Confetti: the Chaos Orb part which requires manual dexterity and requires that nobody moves cards on the table after it's cast, and the Blacker part which requires to destroy the underlying card
19:29:04 <b_jonas> both of those are bad from the perspective of what kind of game M:tG wants to be (Chaos Orb is banned), but they're not really that bad rules-wise I think
19:29:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, that is why I say, in order to implement with this programming language to make it mathematically defined, you must make a "external host function reference"
19:29:48 <shachaf> I wish they updated the Oracle text of un-cards.
19:30:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: for the Chaos Orb part, yes. for the Blacker part, possibly no, if you implement ownership of cards in the same system as the rules, which can be done in MtgO
19:30:51 <zzo38> I would prefer that they deleted the Oracle text of many un-cards (keeping only the copy of the printed text); and update the Oracle text of the ones that can be use with normal game.
19:30:56 <zzo38> (Even though they are banned)
19:31:05 <b_jonas> shachaf: the un-rules manager who puts out un-rules faqs and makes un-rulings of the highest levels is Marc Rosewater, and he's very bad with templating, so if they updated Oracle text, they'd be crazy bad
19:31:29 <shachaf> I just want them to say "enter the battlefield" instead of "come into play" and so on.
19:31:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: why would _that_ help?
19:32:04 <shachaf> For consistency with modern cards and rules.
19:32:19 <zzo38> b_jonas: Actually for ownership of cards, well, it doesn't have to MtgO, just it is remove from the sideboard too, so you cannot use it in multiple game of the match.
19:32:52 <shachaf> Oh, what happens with Blacker Lotus if you play a multi-game match and you tear it up in the first game?
19:32:57 <zzo38> (Rule support for that function is still required though)
19:32:58 <shachaf> You can't play a second game with a 59-card deck.
19:33:11 <zzo38> shachaf: Take a card from your sideboard to replace it.
19:33:18 <shachaf> What if your sideboard is empty?
19:33:29 <zzo38> Then I suppose you have to concede before the game is started
19:34:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it has to be more than the match. it's the whole tournament, because you often have to use the same deck and sideboard for the whole tournament of multiple matches.
19:34:22 <zzo38> Yes, there is that too, so you may have to concede the entire tournament
19:34:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: Wouldn't your deck be restored to the original list of cards between matches?
19:35:08 <shachaf> For instance at the beginning of a new match you can't sideboard, you have to start with the cards that were in your deck originally.
19:35:21 <shachaf> Maybe that means that your whole deck resets, Blacker Lotuses included.
19:35:26 <zzo38> It depends on the tournament format I think
19:35:29 <b_jonas> maybe you replace it with a basic land?
19:36:26 <zzo38> In some Limited formats you do not have to register the deck, and in that case it is allowed to sideboard at the beginning of a new match, I think
19:36:49 <b_jonas> I'd say replace it with a basic land in your deck or sideboard before the start of the next game or something
19:36:56 <b_jonas> (but don't replace it during a game)
19:37:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: Hmm, I guess the same question might come up for ante cards.
19:37:35 <ais523> shachaf: the ante cards are all banned because of that
19:37:50 <ais523> shachaf: there's a ruling for Un sets that after destroying blacker lotus, you get to continue with the 59-card deck
19:37:54 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's some rule about how to "play without ante" and what ante cards do in that case I think
19:38:00 <b_jonas> but sure, they're banned, just like un-cards are
19:39:12 <b_jonas> well, there's Advantageous Proclamation that shows the game rules can handle smaller decks, 60 cards in constructed (40 cards in limited, 100 cards in some formats) is just the default minimum
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19:40:03 <b_jonas> however, making a deck of 40 Blacker Lotuses, destroying them in the first game against an easy opponent, and then winning with a 20 card deck would be too easy, so the rules should stop that
19:40:25 <b_jonas> which is why I'd say you have to replace them with basic lands before starting the next game
19:40:52 <shachaf> Contract from Below is TG.
19:41:46 <b_jonas> we should play without ante
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19:55:52 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/birkenfeld/rick
19:57:48 <zzo38> You can play with ante if you want to, returning the cards to whoever you borrowed them from after a match. If one player borrowed a deck from his opponent, then all cards you must give back to opponent afterward anyways.
19:58:13 <zzo38> But before that you can compare the cards you start with, with the cards you end with, to make up a score
20:00:55 <zzo38> It is a new kind of way to play with ante, even in Limited formats. You can also make it game/set/match so that card are sometimes return in the middle of a match too but not always
20:06:14 <zzo38> But if I had made up the rules I would want them to be more mathematically elegant
20:06:41 <Taneb> York's university challenge team are VERY good
20:07:26 <shachaf> b_jonas: It sounds like you're not pro-ante.
20:08:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'm not. It's not a good mechanic, and the cards aren't good either. They're like old bad cards that make the game worse, sort of like Divine Intervention.
20:08:20 <Taneb> shachaf, are you advocating upping the ante
20:08:31 <b_jonas> Ante simply isn't a good idea in M:tG.
20:08:41 <shachaf> I really just wanted to say it because it sounded like "pro-anti".
20:09:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: sorry, English puns don't always work on me, I have partial resistance.
20:09:13 <b_jonas> I don't know enough English to appreciate them.
20:10:00 <b_jonas> It's not perfect resistance, some of them do work quite well, such as the "bore" pun in http://www.darthsanddroids.net/episodes/1227.html
20:12:12 <shachaf> What cards should I put in my Bearer of the Heavens deck?
20:13:20 <shachaf> I'm not sure Island really fits.
20:13:20 <b_jonas> shachaf: Reknit, Boar Umbra, etc
20:13:21 <Taneb> You can make it work
20:13:37 <b_jonas> shachaf: regenerate a few key permanents that let you kill the opponent when he's defenseless
20:13:41 <Taneb> (those were the only cards I could remember)
20:13:44 <b_jonas> or make them indestructible, but that's harder
20:13:57 <shachaf> Other permanents, not the Bearer.
20:14:05 <shachaf> I had things like Boros Charm in my old deck.
20:14:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: Bearer of the Heavens destroys most permanents, including lands, that can leave the opponent pretty defenseless if you prepare well
20:14:20 <shachaf> (Which was made with Innistrad-and-onward cards.)
20:14:52 <shachaf> Gift of Immortality has an interesting interaction with BotH.
20:15:11 <b_jonas> also, you may need some defense against cards like Unmake or Swords to Plowshares that exile Bearer of Heavens
20:15:19 <shachaf> And a bunch of reanimation cards.
20:15:36 <shachaf> Right, I guess there are a lot more of those in Modern.
20:15:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: plus I guess you need some tricks to accelerate into Bearer of the Heavens and some extra spells quickly enough
20:15:54 <shachaf> My old deck had a bunch of reanimation.
20:16:10 <shachaf> Including Rescue from the Underworld, which works pretty well if you can get enough creatures for it.
20:16:28 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh, you'll reanimate it rather than pay for it? that can work too
20:16:49 <b_jonas> it might work even better if you can put it to play for just one turn... can that be done these days?
20:16:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: what format and what kind of environment is this?
20:17:34 <shachaf> The environment is all sorts of strange decks, probably not too competitive in general.
20:17:51 <b_jonas> you should probably decide the format first, before you build the deck
20:19:12 <shachaf> But I don't really know much about pre-Innistrad Modern.
20:19:54 <b_jonas> hmm... what's in the ban list of Modern? is Darksteel Citadel allowed?
20:20:09 <ais523> b_jonas: IIRC darksteel citadel is allowed but not the other artifact lands
20:20:24 <b_jonas> oh, Boros Charm? that sounds like a really good idea
20:21:18 <b_jonas> there's apparently Terra Eternal
20:21:25 <b_jonas> that won't work, it helps the opponent
20:21:31 <shachaf> I also had Tymaret, the Murder King.
20:21:33 <b_jonas> stick to Boros Charm and maybe some regeneration
20:21:44 <shachaf> And some other things, I don't remember.
20:21:57 <shachaf> There's a reanimation card with Flashback.
20:22:04 <b_jonas> shachaf: so what are the plans for getting Bearer of Heavens into play? how quickly do you want to do that?
20:22:17 <shachaf> In my previous deck it took a while.
20:22:21 <shachaf> But maybe Modern has more options.
20:24:25 <b_jonas> I wonder if there's some red card that puts it onto the battlefield then destroys it
20:24:43 <shachaf> Oh, I remember a card like that.
20:24:54 <shachaf> Was it in the most recent set?
20:25:14 <shachaf> Or maybe I'm confusing it with the keyword ability that some cards have.
20:26:03 <b_jonas> wait, could you use some card that lets you sacrifice your permanents as paying for dealing damage to the opponent?
20:26:28 <b_jonas> though it might be hard to do with your lands
20:26:30 <shachaf> Sure, assuming you can get it out onto the battlefield.
20:27:08 <b_jonas> that would both let you fling your goats before you get everything destroyed, and sacrifice Bearer itself
20:27:17 <shachaf> I think a card like that would be TG.
20:27:31 <shachaf> If it let you turn lands into damage.
20:27:38 <b_jonas> shachaf: sure, it can't be one card
20:27:45 <b_jonas> animating all lands might not be worth
20:27:50 <shachaf> Oh, you mean a bunch of flings, or something.
20:28:02 <b_jonas> but you could still fling your creatures, assuming you have some other creatures that are useful
20:28:07 <shachaf> I kind of want to put Gift of Immortality in just because it keeps destroying all permanents every turn.
20:28:36 <b_jonas> shachaf: Goblin Bombardment
20:28:46 <ais523> shachaf: do you get to attack during all this?
20:28:48 <b_jonas> there's some others if you're willing to pay mana
20:29:03 <shachaf> b_jonas: Hmm, interesting.
20:29:11 <ais523> also, the reanimation card with flashback is Dread Return, which is banned in Modern and one of the most important cards in top-tier decks in both Legacy and Vintage
20:29:15 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, _after_ the bearer dies, with some other creature you regenerate
20:29:18 <ais523> shachaf: the recursive Gift of Immortality loop
20:29:26 <ais523> I mean, attacking with the Bearer itself
20:29:38 <shachaf> ais523: Yes, it enters the battlefield before the beginning of your turn.
20:30:04 <shachaf> ais523: No, not Dread Return.
20:30:20 <b_jonas> you could also use Otherworldly Journey rather than regenerating creatures
20:30:47 <b_jonas> but yeah, Boros Charm sounds like the best
20:31:21 <ais523> shachaf: well if the opponent can't ever play anything that costs more than one mana, can't keep permanents around for a turn, and you get to attack every turn
20:31:32 <ais523> that sounds pretty much like a win to me unless they're running Erase or something similarly specific
20:32:45 <b_jonas> oh, Dread Return sounds nice
20:33:19 <b_jonas> no, probably not Dread Return
20:36:50 <shachaf> b_jonas: There are also creatures like Obzedat, Ghost Council.
20:36:52 <b_jonas> shachaf: try to search for existing deck lists with Bearer for ideas
20:37:36 <b_jonas> hmm, it seems most cards that put something into play for one turn are careful and _exile_ it
20:37:56 <b_jonas> some aren't, but they're harder to use, eg. Imprompty Raid
20:39:15 <shachaf> Oh, the card I was thinking of was Flameshadow Conjuring.
20:39:30 <shachaf> And it makes a copy anyway.
20:39:45 <b_jonas> shachaf: it costs tons of mana, but there's Kiki-Jiki which sacrifices a copy of your Bearer
20:40:06 <b_jonas> you can save the original by eg. regenerating it or journeying it, and then you attack with it
20:40:19 <b_jonas> regenerating is better because you get to attack immediately
20:40:38 <b_jonas> but of course the regenerated one will just get Doom Bladed
20:40:42 <shachaf> b_jonas: Kiki-Jiki also sacrifices it at end of turn, which means my opponent gets an extra turn before their permanents are destroyed.
20:41:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: they get an extra turn _after_ their permanents are destroyed, but before you get to attack
20:41:41 <b_jonas> which is much less of a problem
20:41:47 <shachaf> Kiki-Jiki sacrifices the copy of Bearer of the Heavens in the end step.
20:41:59 <shachaf> So its ability only destroys everything in the next end step.
20:42:13 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a protocol called Extensible Internet Chat (XIC) :)
20:43:00 <zzo38> IRC works fine, but OK you can try other stuff too
20:44:33 <hppavilion[1]> It's an open protocol that, in my imagination, would replace IRC as a better chat. Probably won't, but I'm allowed to dream :P
20:44:44 <shachaf> Dreaming isn't allowed on IRC.
20:44:59 <hppavilion[1]> It's designed to introduce the IRC interface to the newer generation
20:45:15 <hppavilion[1]> It's like IRC, but less complicated and allowing File Transfers and such
20:46:07 <b_jonas> there's Through the Breach which is like Kiki-Jiki
20:46:33 <shachaf> Hmm, Through the Breach is interesting.
20:46:38 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: IRC already allows file transfers
20:46:48 <ais523> although in practice, getting a DCC through a firewall can be hard
20:46:51 <b_jonas> shachaf: it has the same problems as Kiki-Jiki. expensive, works in enx of turn.
20:47:02 <shachaf> But it has the same disadvantage as -- yes.
20:47:14 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: Since about 1991.
20:47:31 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's expensive but it doesn't require a Bearer to be on the battlefield already.
20:47:34 <fizzie> Although you can argue on whether DCC is part of IRC.
20:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> Well MY file transfers don't need anything more than the ability to encode a file to Base64
20:47:53 <shachaf> b_jonas: And CMC 5 isn't so bad. It's the same as an average reanimation spell.
20:48:05 <b_jonas> ais523: meh, just tunnel the file through a channel instead of a separate socket. it's ugly because you have to base-253 encode it and split it to lines and add headers before each line so it grows a lot, but still.
20:48:29 <b_jonas> shachaf: yeah, but now you need a way to put it to the battlefield, though that isn't too hard
20:48:50 <zzo38> IRC is simple and powerful enough as it is, I think. Most other protocols (such as XMPP) and so on tend to be very complicated
20:48:56 <shachaf> b_jonas: Through the Breach puts it from your hand onto the battlefield.
20:49:23 <fizzie> Also I don't see any good reason why to base64 if you're *not* trying to put something through a legacy thing not designed for it.
20:49:48 <shachaf> b_jonas: My old strategy was putting it in the graveyeard and reanimating it.
20:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Probably a newline problem when transmitting text files
20:50:02 <shachaf> I played Faithless Looting and cards like that.
20:50:07 <b_jonas> shachaf: is that something that can work in Modern?
20:50:22 <shachaf> Through the Breach is probably no worse than that strategy, though.
20:50:56 <fizzie> An XDCC bot with an esolang-related file archive is something we're sorely missing, but it's maybe a decare or two too late for that.
20:51:10 <fizzie> Decare is like a decade, but it cares more.
20:51:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: isn't this something that you _don't_ want to reanimate in turn 3, because then you won't have enough resources to keep stuff from getting destroyed, and your opponent will be able to recover better than you?
20:51:32 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how this should work
20:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> Another reason I'm making this protocol: IRC has entered a declien
20:52:03 <shachaf> b_jonas: Reanimating it isn't so bad. You still have a 10/10 that your opponent doesn't want to destroy.
20:52:21 <shachaf> But maybe in Modern there's a lot more exile.
20:52:48 <b_jonas> but he'll just chump block it forever
20:53:03 <shachaf> Sure, your opponent can bus.
20:53:29 <shachaf> But it's not a terrible position, and as soon as you draw Boros Charm or Gift of Immortality or something you can use it.
20:54:09 <b_jonas> had you mentioned that earlier and I missed it?
20:55:06 <shachaf> It's great. You get the Bearer back every turn.
20:57:58 <b_jonas> ok, really stupid question, what if you regenerate Barren Glory? nope, too many combo pieces, too much mana, too easy to disrupt.
20:58:20 <ais523> b_jonas: not to mention that you need a convoluted mess to regenerate an enchantment in the first place
20:58:38 <ais523> would be easier to make it indestructable; I think there's a single card that does that
20:58:40 <b_jonas> ais523: convoluted mess? isn't there like Reknit? let me check that
20:58:55 <zzo38> "Target player chooses any number not greater than X, loses that much life, draws that many cards, and then exiles the top Y cards of his/her library where Y is X minus the chosen number."
20:59:23 <shachaf> Oh, that's an interesting strategy.
20:59:26 <ais523> zzo38: without overload, that's broken at XB and strictly worse than an existing card at XBB
20:59:33 <shachaf> But seems tricky to pull off.
21:00:01 <zzo38> ais523: I know that it is broken at XB but I was intending to be XBB, and with an overload ability too
21:00:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't think it works. it needs like three cards and a ton of mana, and disrupted very easily by any destroyer or countere. at that point you should have won ages ago.
21:00:12 <ais523> at XBB overload 0 it still isn't very good, because you'd basically never overload it unless the opponent was low on life
21:00:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: also like two colors or three
21:00:35 <b_jonas> ok, two colors doesn't really matter if you have nine mana to spend a turn
21:00:37 <shachaf> b_jonas: It's two colors but so is Boros Charm or Gift of Immortality.
21:00:38 <ais523> in which case you'd still prefer the existing XBB card because it would outright kill them
21:00:47 <ais523> so yes, that's broken at XB (target yourself), and just pointless at XBB overload 0
21:00:53 <zzo38> I think overload 0 is too low, it should be at least X
21:00:55 <ais523> maybe if it was XBB overload draw a card ;-)
21:01:14 <ais523> zzo38: overloading the card actually makes it worse, though
21:01:16 <b_jonas> what's this with overload?
21:01:28 <ais523> because exiling the top X cards of your library is not a very major effect unless X is very large
21:01:47 <zzo38> Overload draw a card? Maybe...
21:01:53 <ais523> and your opponent gets some amount of "lose 1 life and draw a card" effects of their choice, which is normally a good ability
21:02:10 <ais523> and which can't be used to kill them because they can choose not to take them
21:02:11 <zzo38> Yes, unless X is very large
21:02:38 <ais523> I think that card would be better as "each player draws X cards and loses X life" for XB
21:02:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is another kind of card
21:02:58 <ais523> zzo38: if X is very large, though, you don't bother overloading it, you just aim it at your opponent
21:03:12 <ais523> the existing XBB card outright kills them in that situation
21:03:16 <zzo38> ais523: Yes I know
21:05:03 <b_jonas> right, just Fireball them for 20
21:05:52 <zzo38> Fireball is red card though
21:06:13 <zzo38> And if they have a lot of life points, it isn't working
21:06:30 <zzo38> Even then, depending on the cube you are playing, some cards might not even be available
21:06:52 <zzo38> b_jonas: Clearly which card you choose depend on blue or black.
21:07:04 <b_jonas> do we have an oracle text and rules quoting bot on this channel?
21:07:08 <zzo38> (Or, red, green, white)
21:07:14 <zzo38> Not on this channel, I think
21:07:54 <b_jonas> where does HackEgo listen other than on this channel?
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21:08:25 <zzo38> You can still send private messages although I don't know if there are any other channels that it does.
21:08:39 <b_jonas> it listens to private messages? that changes EVERYTHING
21:09:13 <zzo38> Any writes to filesystem made by private messages are still logged though, but as far as I know reads aren't logged.
21:09:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's no problem is messages are logged
21:10:00 <b_jonas> I could upload a compressed oracle text database through private message in a few hours I think
21:10:08 <b_jonas> or can it download straight from web?
21:11:48 <zzo38> I don't know. But even the existing database they use some non-ASCII characters, and still includes reminder text, so for those reasons it isn't as good as it should be (actually there are some other problems with the text too)
21:12:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: what's the problem with non-ascii characters?
21:12:57 <b_jonas> I have more problem with flip cards and split cards and double-faced cards which they keep messing up inconsistently
21:13:46 <b_jonas> though my main problem is that I still haven't made my scripts work with the new new Gatherer, so my only source of up to date Oracle text is from Yawgatog's, which is actually quite consistent and fixes all the flip cards somehow
21:14:12 <b_jonas> I should fix it but I'm lazy
21:14:19 <b_jonas> the new new Gatherer is just very stupid
21:14:50 <coppro> b_jonas: yawgatog maintains one
21:14:59 <b_jonas> do some of you download the full oracle text database from a source independent of yawgatog?
21:15:04 <b_jonas> coppro: yes, and that's my only source right now
21:15:31 <b_jonas> coppro: before they created the new new Gatherer, I could use the new gatherer to download every card in a single page, and then parse it
21:15:50 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if the new new gatherer allows that, but even if it does, I have to rewrite my scripts because they changed the format
21:16:10 <b_jonas> I don't shy away from downloading hundreds of pages, I do that all the time, but I'm not interested enough about M:tG to do it these days
21:16:12 <zzo38> Yes, but even Yawgatog's has reminder text and stuff. I would prefer the format: Always {} for symbols, ~ when the card name refers to "this card", and only ASCII characters.
21:16:34 <zzo38> I also found a JSON version, which has the same problems.
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21:17:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: why "~" for "this card"? doesn't it already use {} for mana symbols and tap symbols, and [] for loyalty?
21:17:22 <coppro> zzo38: reminder text is a part of the Oracle text
21:17:22 <zzo38> But, if you do use the JSON version you can use a SQLite extension that I made up for reading JSON files
21:17:35 <b_jonas> I don't recall if they fixed flip cards, but I think they haven't
21:17:36 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I know it is, but my opinion it shouldn't be
21:17:44 <coppro> ASCII is not correct, because the card names do not use exclusively ASCII
21:18:12 <zzo38> Yes, but you can translate the card names into ASCII in a standardized format
21:18:19 <coppro> yes, but you shouldn't need to
21:18:25 <coppro> get out of the 20th century
21:19:27 <zzo38> You should use ASCII when possible.
21:20:02 <coppro> you should use UTF-8 when possible
21:20:27 <b_jonas> coppro: exactly. Scéance; Æther Figment; Ærathi Berserker (probably the craziest one); Looter <i>il</i>-Kor (or is it Looter <i>il-</i>Kor?); Kongming, “Sleeping Dragon”; “Ach! Hans, Run!”
21:20:49 <b_jonas> the craziest is when flavor text contains unitalicized parts
21:21:11 <zzo38> No I believe you are wrong, you should use ASCII when possible, also converting the italics to normal texts.
21:21:33 <coppro> the italics I don't mind
21:21:33 <zzo38> If ASCII won't do then you can use UTF-8 and other formats, but you should try to use ASCII
21:21:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: what would be the ascii for all of those card names above?
21:21:39 <coppro> but I don't know why you would prefer ascii
21:21:45 <coppro> especially when ascii is demonstrably unfit for the task
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21:22:17 <zzo38> Replace the ligature with "AE", the accented with no accents, quotation marks straight, and italic letters straightened. For foreign card names you should not use ASCII of course.
21:23:56 <b_jonas> the fun part of en- and il- is that they're printed in italic in text boxes everywhere and in title bars of modern frame cards, but as upright in title bars of old frames
21:24:22 <b_jonas> so it's possible that it's not actually a significant part of the card name
21:25:29 <b_jonas> besides en-<tribe> and il-<tribe>, what other cards get italicized text in their names?
21:26:15 <zzo38> I think maybe a few Un-cards might, you should check
21:26:16 <coppro> I believe there is at least one
21:26:18 <b_jonas> I guess the italicization of en- and il- is probably a design detail you should ignore, like the black and white mana symbols in Mirrodin text boxes
21:26:37 <b_jonas> as in, the italic has no rules significance, and you don't have to reproduce the italic when naming a card
21:27:08 <zzo38> The deck format I use requires that all card names are written in ASCII format, too
21:27:50 <zzo38> (They also must use the English names, even if you have foreign cards in your deck)
21:28:10 <b_jonas> also, the Gatherer doesn't show italic in the card name or card text in the Oracle text, which shows it probably doesn't matter
21:28:47 <coppro> there's also Erase (Not the Urza's Legacy One)
21:28:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: how do you asciify Ærathi Berserker? with or without the Æ?
21:29:11 <zzo38> By replacing it with "AE"
21:29:12 <coppro> which has the parenthetical typset smaller in the title box, but not the text box, and the name /Urza's Legacy/ italicized in the text box, but not the title box
21:29:29 <zzo38> (Although it is also case-insensitive, at least for unquoted text)
21:29:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, with AE? not with Ae or nothing?
21:29:59 <zzo38> "Ae" is also valid, as it is case-insensitive.
21:30:35 <zzo38> (And actually "Ae" is what I have used, but it doesn't matter as it is defined to be case-insensitive)
21:30:54 <b_jonas> Then there's Our Market Research
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21:31:50 <b_jonas> coppro: yeah... the full name does fit in an irc line
21:31:52 <b_jonas> Our Market Research Shows That Players Like Really Long Card Names So We Made this Card to Have the Absolute Longest Card Name Ever Elemental
21:37:21 <b_jonas> although there's at least one card with rules text so long it doesn't fit in a single irc line
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21:37:33 <b_jonas> so a bot would have to know how to split to multiple lines
21:38:15 <b_jonas> Dance of the Dead and Master of the Hunt have quite long texts
21:39:00 <coppro> AFAIK Ice Cauldron still holds the record
21:39:22 <b_jonas> coppro: probably depends on how you turn to character sequences
21:39:29 <b_jonas> it's shorter in my version
21:39:47 <shachaf> Are you counting Oracle text or printed text?
21:39:55 <zzo38> I think that making a RVTP server and RVTP client would help. (The server does not have to be SQLite, although it might be easier if it is. If the client is SQLite that probably also makes it easier)
21:39:59 <coppro> Ice Cauldron's oracle text is too long to be printed
21:40:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: oracle, but in my old dump that's a bit reformatted
21:40:22 <b_jonas> coppro: Dance of the Dead's too probably
21:40:24 <shachaf> I think Illusionary Mask's Oracle text is longer?
21:41:22 <zzo38> (But SQLite does not yet support virtual table modules that can read LIMIT and OFFSET clauses)
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21:41:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: my dump favors Dance of the Dead unfairly because I turn newlines to three characters
21:42:10 <b_jonas> Dance of the Dead has three
21:42:17 <b_jonas> also it's old, I think Illu Mask has changed since
21:42:27 <shachaf> It's probably fair as far as space utilization on the card goes.
21:42:29 <b_jonas> how you treat mana symbols and such might also change stuff
21:43:12 <b_jonas> Ice Cauldron may have changed since too
21:44:39 <b_jonas> Camouflage (which has remainder text) and Riftmarked Knight and Tombstone Stairwell are also somewhat long
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22:03:57 <tswett> !bfjoust neuralnet (>(+)*20>(-)*6)*5(>)*6([(+)*0[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(++++++-)*4[-]]>)*5([(+)*6[-]]>)*3([(+)*6[-]]>)*-1
22:04:11 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_neuralnet: 6.6
22:04:20 <tswett> So... how good is that?
22:04:58 <tswett> Aha, here it is. http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/report.txt
22:05:59 <boily> wow. haven't seen jousting in a loooong time.
22:07:15 <tswett> So, growth2 and preparation both win the great majority of the time. There is no program that beats both.
22:07:45 <tswett> Oh, what an interesting NN URL.
22:07:45 <tswett> http://www.unicode: esolangs.org/list
22:09:09 <tswett> This one's pretty interesting too: http://www./nick.com/8018/19/100/00621
22:11:29 -!- |f`-`|f has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:11:58 <boily> I highly suspect that those aren't quite valid URLs...
22:11:59 <oerjan> <Aearnus> http://ideone.com/ZqytvO <-- not that i particularly suspect you, but if you want people to visit your links, it's a good idea to speak enough to prove you're not a spammer
22:12:09 -!- |f`-`|f has joined.
22:12:34 <Aearnus> I just thought it was weird and wanted to share it
22:12:53 <oerjan> ok i didn't notice you had spoken before i joined.
22:13:01 <boily> Aearnus: isn't that the top link from /r/lolphp today?
22:13:15 <Aearnus> From today? Not sure, I was looking through all time
22:13:32 <Aearnus> Also I used to hang around here under a different name, CrazyM4n
22:14:49 <Aearnus> http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:CrazyM4n
22:15:02 <boily> looks like we never weren't there at the same time and/or spacetime combination.
22:15:44 <oerjan> Gregor has such an incredibly stable idleness
22:15:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:CrazyM4n]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43679&oldid=41432 * CrazyM4n * (+71)
22:18:53 <oerjan> Aearnus: aha, welcome back
22:19:30 <oerjan> there's a small formatting bug in the codu logs: the nickname field isn't _quite_ wide enough if someone maxes it out
22:19:56 <oerjan> which doesn't happen that often, but happened today
22:20:33 <oerjan> and then it line wraps
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22:22:54 <tswett> Yeah, when's the last time Gregor spoke?
22:23:21 <oerjan> a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away
22:23:50 <oerjan> the 17 days whois gives _might_ be correct, or not.
22:25:34 <oerjan> he changed nick on the 17th of july
22:26:11 <oerjan> the next day i nagged him about codu's clock, which has since been fixed
22:26:32 <oerjan> but no actual speaking was involved.
22:27:07 <boily> shellochaf. please be aware that that was a horrible pun.
22:27:53 <oerjan> that pun was definitely fishy
22:28:26 * boily mapoles shachaf and then oerjan on the rebound
22:29:41 <tswett> Is a mapole a maypole?
22:29:53 * oerjan counts this as a great success
22:30:00 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
22:30:47 <tswett> And then if you keep looking at the definitions, you end up getting thrown for a loop.
22:30:59 <oerjan> the spork and corkscrew would certainly be appropriate for festivities
22:31:31 <boily> If I ever open up a café or something, I'm very tempted to call it “The Spork & Corkscrew”.
22:32:16 <shachaf> Really, you wouldn't call it the Sporkscrew?
22:32:18 <oerjan> will it have a whistling moose figure
22:32:23 <shachaf> i find that difficult to believe hth
22:32:57 <oerjan> sporkscrews are hard to hold properly tdnh
22:35:17 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/*acallit | xargs -1 \?
22:35:19 <HackEgo> xargs: invalid option -- '1' \ Usage: xargs [-0prtx] [--interactive] [--null] [-d|--delimiter=delim] \ [-E eof-str] [-e[eof-str]] [--eof[=eof-str]] \ [-L max-lines] [-l[max-lines]] [--max-lines[=max-lines]] \ [-I replace-str] [-i[replace-str]] [--replace[=replace-str]] \ [-n max-args] [--max-args=max-args] \ [-s
22:35:32 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/*acallit | xargs -n 1 \?
22:35:33 <HackEgo> wisdom/thwackamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ wisdom/whatchamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:36:18 <oerjan> `` cat wisdom/*acallit
22:36:19 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole. \ A whatchamacallit is like a thwackamacallit, but less painful.
22:36:42 <boily> (probably going to have to call the place with a French name: «La cuillourchette et le tire-bouchon»)
22:37:07 <boily> uh, anybody know how to call a spork in French?
22:40:01 <oerjan> https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuill%C3%A8re-fourchette hth
22:41:38 <boily> I prefer cuillourchette :D
22:43:39 <oerjan> from wikipedia's list, it appears that romance languages have portmanteauphobia
22:44:13 <boily> PORTMANTONS TOUTES LES CHOSES!
22:46:35 <oerjan> otoh i cannot recall a norwegian word for it, by analogy with swedish/icelandic it should be skjaffel
22:46:58 * boily is scared by the "skj"
22:47:46 * boily thwackamacalls shachaf
22:48:17 <oerjan> boily: it's pronounced approximately like english sh, although possibly more retroflex
22:48:58 <oerjan> it might depend a lot on dialect
22:49:48 <oerjan> as i mentioned earlier, wikipedia cannot agree with itself on which sh-like sound it is
22:50:01 <boily> that still haven't been resolved yet?
22:50:18 <oerjan> well i didn't bring it up
22:50:28 <oerjan> i'm not enough of a phonologist to make a decision
22:50:34 <shachaf> boily: oerjan doesn't like it when you bring up wikipedia issues to him hth
22:50:52 <oerjan> also it's on 3 different articles
22:50:54 <boily> I'll unbring the issue then.
22:51:39 <oerjan> i suspect it may differ between the dialects that have r-dental retroflex merging and those that have uvular r with no merging
22:52:09 <boily> time for me to saturate what passes as my brains with doubtful things and a good wash of ethylic liquefaction.
22:52:26 <oerjan> (the former may or may not consistently pronounce "rs" as the same sound. i cannot quite convince myself whether or not my own dialect does.)
22:52:26 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA *THWACK* AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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22:52:59 <oerjan> mostly due to the difficulty of finding any minimal pairs between sj and rs
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22:54:03 <oerjan> (the former only happen at the beginning of syllables, except when used as a forced spelling on loanwords. the latter only happens at the end of syllables.)
22:55:21 <b_jonas> oerjan: can there be a minimal pair involving two adjacent words/
22:55:23 <oerjan> hm wait the first part isn't quite true
22:55:56 <b_jonas> like, foo sjbar versus foors bar
22:56:14 <Sgeo> Perl 6 keeps putting me in mind of lenses
22:57:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: that was what i was trying to think of. Mosjøen vs. Morsjøen, except it's not really rs in the latter
22:57:50 <oerjan> i think that might be as close as you get. and i cannot convince myself whether i really pronounce them differently.
22:58:27 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's also no convincing minimal pair between "t" and "ty" in Hungarian. the best I have is "Nagyatád" vs "nagyatyád" but I'm not sure the latter is a word
22:59:40 <b_jonas> that's basically because "ty" is very rare
23:02:18 <oerjan> i recall reading that h vs. ng also have no minimal pairs, possibly goes for both english and norwegian
23:02:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, in what language?
23:03:03 <b_jonas> is that because ng goes only before a g, but h never goes before a g?
23:03:05 <oerjan> um i just mentioned two hth
23:03:23 <oerjan> it's because ng never starts a syllable and h always does
23:03:43 <oerjan> probably there's some compound exception there too
23:04:39 <b_jonas> oh, that's how "h" works in English? ok
23:05:00 <oerjan> hm well when actually pronounced
23:05:18 <b_jonas> I've no idea when "h" is actually pronounced in English. it seems random.
23:05:32 <oerjan> i guess it goes better for norwegian, then
23:05:44 <b_jonas> but I'm quite sure "h" doesn't have to start a syllable in Hungarian (though it often does)
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23:06:51 <b_jonas> that said, a minimal pair between h and ng might be difficult still because you'd have to find a word with "hk" or "hg" which is somewhat rare
23:07:00 <oerjan> we don't use it to form digraphs, either
23:07:19 <b_jonas> and it's especially rare if you don't want it in a boundary of a compound where it would be very hard to put an ng sound
23:08:28 <b_jonas> um, "h" is used to form digraphs in Hungarian, namely "ch" and "kh" exclusively in borrowings (mostly from ancient Greek or German) and "th" (in old traditional fancy spelling of noble family names)
23:09:06 <oerjan> i suppose we have that old fancy th too. (viz. Thue)
23:09:33 <b_jonas> even though "ch" and "kh" appear only in borrowings but is permanent in the sense that it is kept forever no matter how hungarianized the borrowing becomes, so they're effectively real digraphs
23:09:47 <oerjan> in normalized spelling, ch/kh -> k, anyway
23:11:10 <b_jonas> "th" is not used productively, but kept in well-known old names including "Kossuth" and "Batthyány"
23:14:44 <b_jonas> also, "h" is supposedly silent in some words where it appears at the end of the syllable, but nobody knows which words they are, basically it's silent when it'd be hard to pronounce (or by tradition or something) but that differs for everyone
23:17:55 <b_jonas> I think the random silent "h" is a rule made up by teachers to screw with students who have to learn it
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23:21:05 <tswett> Do we Anglophones have a lot of silent Hs?
23:22:13 <b_jonas> tswett: supposedly yes, but at _start_ of words, where Hungarian doesn't have any
23:22:32 <b_jonas> and it seems totally random
23:22:38 <b_jonas> I think "honor" has a silent "h"
23:23:00 <tswett> And then there's the word "herb".
23:23:02 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think English has crazier fahncy noble family names
23:23:02 <oerjan> it's because it's mostly in words inherited from french
23:24:01 <b_jonas> English has something for silent consonants at start of words, I never understood it
23:24:30 <b_jonas> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/User:B_jonas#Silent_initial_consonants has a partial list with written consonant clusters where the first letter is silent
23:24:51 <b_jonas> but _those_ are at least consistent in that it either always happens for a letter pair or never
23:25:03 <b_jonas> the initial "h" is apparently random, or at least I don't know the logi
23:25:23 <oerjan> the logic is that it's silent if it was borrowed from french that way hth
23:25:44 <b_jonas> ah yes, the most famous English one is I think Featherstonehaugh
23:25:44 <oerjan> which might depend on _when_ it was borrowed, i guess.
23:25:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, and French has random logic for initial "h" too
23:26:42 <oerjan> i think that's because french lost it, regained it, then lost it again, or something?
23:27:12 <b_jonas> there's also "ch", which in French is pronounced as /S/ most of the time, but sometimes as /k/ when it's borrowed from greek or something.
23:27:40 <b_jonas> English does that worse, because it has both "th" and "ch" which are sometimes pronounced as /t/ or /k/ when borrowed from greek
23:28:08 <b_jonas> and "chthonic" is the absolute most riddiculous combination of all that
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23:29:29 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, it's pronounced with a /T/ or /kT/, not with a /t/
23:29:57 <b_jonas> I think "th" is pronounced as a /t/ when it's borrowed from latin or french, not when it's borrowed from greek, or something
23:30:16 <b_jonas> whereas "ch" is pronounced as /k/ when it's borrowed from greek?
23:30:26 <b_jonas> I think you just have to learn the individual words
23:30:56 <oerjan> i know that greek changed its pronunciation from /t/ to /T/
23:31:03 <oerjan> so it might depend on time again
23:31:21 <oerjan> (technically, _aspirated_ /t/)
23:31:37 <oerjan> which is of course the usual for germanic languages
23:32:29 <oerjan> and not for hungarian afair
23:33:25 <oerjan> (germanic sound change was /t/ -> /t^h/ and /t^h/ -> /T/)
23:35:44 <oerjan> /d/ -> /t^h/ and /t/ -> /T/, i mean
23:35:56 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimm%27s_law
23:36:31 <oren> th in english is pronounced as a voiceless interdental fricative, except in a very limited set of words where it is voiced
23:36:42 <oerjan> norwegian since turned the /T/ back into /t^h/
23:37:28 <b_jonas> some relevant words with the rarer pronunciation are: Thomas, echo, chameleon, chaos, character, chemistry, choir, cholera, chronic/chronicle/chronology/chronometer
23:37:46 <oren> "the", "this", "their", "then", "there", "that" are all voiced
23:37:51 <oerjan> or sometimes, if it had been voiced, /d/ or //, iirc
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23:38:59 <oerjan> b_jonas: i don't have any trouble with the ch ones, but i was pretty old until i fully realized the th exceptions even existed
23:40:21 <oerjan> southern, northern, but not in south or north
23:40:22 <shachaf> oerjan: you probably pronounce "chronicles" with "ik" rather than "ike"
23:40:49 <shachaf> that's certainly how i pronounced it until i had to learn the english pronunciations of the books of the bible
23:41:26 <oerjan> shachaf: argh wiktionary doesn't have the pronunciation of that
23:41:52 <oren> shachaf: I think that most english speakers say kron ik lls
23:42:06 <oren> where ll is a sylabic L
23:42:13 <shachaf> i used to be among those english speakers
23:43:06 <oren> etymylocially it should be kron eek lls
23:44:13 <oerjan> oren: that's not very convincing, you have to consider the great vowel shift
23:44:21 <oerjan> if you are doing actual etymology
23:44:46 <oren> well my oxford english dictionary has a short i
23:44:57 <oren> for "chronicle"
23:45:03 <shachaf> maybe that's how they pronounce it in oxford
23:45:16 * oerjan notes that google translate uses short i in its pronunciation
23:45:35 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=define:chronicle hth
23:46:13 <oren> that reminds me I need to add IPA to my font
23:46:15 <quintopia> oerjan: what do you think is the probability that a random TM is universal as states and/or symbols goes to infinity?
23:46:29 <oerjan> shachaf: did you know that define: doesn't work if you're using google with norwegian settings tdnh
23:46:51 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?hl=en&q=define:chronicle hth
23:47:35 <oerjan> shachaf: well that's definitely not the "ike" sound
23:47:35 <zzo38> I have partially fixed my gopher service now; not all files are available yet, but the server works
23:47:49 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, i was pulling your leg
23:48:10 <b_jonas> what are the most common exceptions for "th"? besides Thomas, there's apparently Thames, Esther, Mathias, Mathilda, plus a few words where the th is apparently simply silent because Englishman are lazy to pronounce consonant clusters
23:48:12 <oerjan> shachaf: pulling my leg is scow tdnh
23:48:29 <b_jonas> where Mathilda is some obsolate spelling of Matilda
23:48:38 <shachaf> oerjan: I went through the books of the bible and kept laughing at how ridiculous the translations to English were.
23:48:55 <shachaf> I wouldn't be surprised if it was pronounced "chronicles" instead of "chronicles", I said.
23:49:10 <shachaf> And since then I've been pronouncing it that way.
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23:49:38 <shachaf> (Actually my last sentence is the only thing I said on this topic that wasn't completely true.)
23:52:48 <oerjan> only because you just hinted at implications rather than outright stating them, i guess
23:53:43 <shachaf> one might say that you were pulling your own leg
23:54:06 <oerjan> "I used to do drugs. I still do, but I used to, too."
23:54:35 <shachaf> I did stop myself from typing that last part.
23:55:04 <quintopia> oh okay. it's quote mitch hedberg hour. i approve. carry on.
23:56:23 <zzo38> I have a dictionary too it says with the short sound
23:57:13 <zzo38> (The dictionary I have on my shelf is Webster though)
23:57:59 <oerjan> quintopia: i don't really know him so i cannot quote any more. btw i'm not sure of that probability, and it might be different for states and symbols...
23:58:26 <HackEgo> Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
23:58:37 <shachaf> http://chu.stanford.edu/live/#7
23:58:52 <zzo38> I thought it is IV hour
23:59:07 <zzo38> (Almost is V hour)
23:59:12 <shachaf> I would say that it's XVI hour.
23:59:19 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, it is
23:59:48 <zzo38> You aren't supposed to use more than 12 hours with roman numbers
00:00:29 <zzo38> (Actually for the clock hours it is IIII not IV for four o'clock)
00:00:44 <shachaf> zzo38: Got any Romans to back you up on that?
00:01:13 <zzo38> Unfortunately I do not have.
00:01:45 <quintopia> zzo38: actually the romans used both spellings interchangeably throughout much of their reign
00:02:27 <zzo38> For the clock it is IIII though
00:03:18 <oerjan> quintopia: my hunch is that it might be 1, _assuming_ there is no simple reason why a TM might always get stuck in a subgraph.
00:03:54 <oerjan> whose probabilty doesn't shrink to 0 as symbols and/or states grow.
00:04:50 <quintopia> oerjan: i thought 1 as well, because i was thinking that there should be a subgraph in which you COULD get stuck, given a particular encoding, which was universal
00:05:23 <oerjan> is there an official answer (or at least 0, 1, or neither)
00:05:54 <quintopia> it seems like a difficult question
00:06:04 <quintopia> i wouldn't expect an answer yet anyway
00:08:16 <oerjan> quintopia: actually my hunch is a combination of both. if it's low, it might be _either_ from getting stuck in something small non-TC, or from getting lost in a large graph with no TC sub-component
00:08:55 <quintopia> so...you think it's zero? or you think those two things are both unlikely?
00:09:14 <oerjan> i think that those two things are more than my brain can tackle at this time
00:09:32 <oerjan> they depend on graph stuff
00:10:24 <oerjan> and birthday-paradox things to ensure small subgraphs exist
00:10:50 <oerjan> hm maybe even ramsey numbers.
00:11:19 <shachaf> given a pair o' docs, what's the likelihood that they share the same birthday?
00:11:33 <shachaf> what's the likelihood that they share different birthdays?
00:12:41 <quintopia> then maybe they'll decide to share birthdays
00:12:53 <quintopia> i would if I were that good of a friend
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00:13:24 <quintopia> actually, i might even swap birthdays with a random stranger just for kicks
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00:14:06 <shachaf> if they weren't friends, why would we call them a pair o' docs?
00:14:12 <shachaf> i guess they could be business partners or something
00:14:17 <shachaf> but no, they're good friends
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00:25:21 <oren> Ok now I have most of IPA and all the Hebrew letters
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00:31:52 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
00:31:55 <tswett> 15:18:53: <kmc> high on a subset of English instance policy?
00:32:14 <tswett> Man, I don't understand why subsets of English instance policy haven't been banned. They're a gateway drug.
00:32:36 <Gregor> oerjan, tswett: Idling is zen.
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00:37:46 <oerjan> Gregor: did you see my point about the logs? i think one more character width for the nickname might be nice
00:39:11 <oerjan> or whatever it takes to make http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-08-03#085542hooplavilion1 not wrap
00:39:29 <Gregor> It doesn't wrap for me...
00:39:48 <shachaf> Gregor: There's a small problem with `revert that could be fixed with a small patch.
00:40:26 <Gregor> Gregor: Just give me the patch then ;)
00:40:38 <shachaf> shachaf: I think fizzie has it.
00:40:41 <oerjan> Gregor: just the last > for me, although for the <hppavilion[1][0]> above it wraps before the [0]>
00:42:00 <Gregor> Well there's yer problem
00:42:16 <Gregor> How does it look in equally-useful Netscape Navigator 3?
00:42:28 <oerjan> i have no idea, since i do not have that installed.
00:42:47 <shachaf> is the joke "microsoft products are scow"?
00:43:01 <oerjan> i could try with Microsoft Edge ith
00:43:07 <Gregor> If "scow" is meant to be "shit", then yes?
00:43:23 <Gregor> scow (n): a wide-beamed sailing dinghy.
00:43:42 <shachaf> that is another meaning of the word
00:43:55 <shachaf> for example a garbage scow is a scow in that sense
00:44:53 <Gregor> It would be unusual to haul garbage on a dinghy.
00:44:59 <oerjan> shachaf: do you also think Gregor is being uncooperative today tdnh
00:45:16 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garbage_scow
00:45:30 <shachaf> http://www.trekcc.org/1e/cardimages/errata/Radioactive-Garbage-Scow.jpg
00:59:25 <oerjan> Gregor: ok after seeing width: 10em in your style sheet i'm now wondering how it ever displays as much as it _does_. clearly i don't understand css...
01:01:38 <shachaf> no one understands css hth
01:05:51 <oren> Now I have all the IPA letters
01:06:37 <oren> what unicode block should I do next
01:06:51 <oren> (must be fixed-width)
01:13:23 <shachaf> what are your hebrew letters like
01:16:27 * oerjan thinks IE feels zippier now after upgrading to windows 10. also dehibernation seems faster.
01:16:51 <oerjan> which is good because yesterday other things seemed slow
01:17:40 <oren> shachaf: hold on I'll get a screenshot
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01:24:13 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/pic.png
01:25:20 <oren> that took some time because I had to write a program to output arbitrary unicode ranges in utf-8 first
01:26:58 <Aearnus> Is that what you were working on
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01:29:43 <oren> I have ASCII, Latin-1, Latin-A, IPA, Hebrew, Greek, Cyrillic, Box Drawing, some Arrows and Math Symbols, all the Block Elements, and all the Geometric Shapes
01:30:01 <notfowl> oren thats a movie hacker font right thete
01:30:33 <oren> I iz teh HAXXXORZ doesn't even look like a joke in this font
01:30:42 <HackEgo> U+1F473 MAN WITH TURBAN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 b3 UTF-16BE: d83ddc73 Decimal: 👳 \ 👳 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F472 MAN WITH GUA PI MAO \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 b2 UTF-16BE: d83ddc72 Decimal: 👲 \ 👲 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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01:31:23 <oren> ah, the Offensive Japanese Stereotype of Indian and Chinese
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01:33:54 <oren> I'm getting another screenshot showing more of the coverage
01:35:18 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/latin.png
01:35:42 <oren> is that enough accents!!!?!?!?!!?!/
01:36:59 <oren> or does some crazy european language need Latin-B too
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01:43:15 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/greekipacyrnotdone.png
01:43:36 <oren> the coverage of ipa is basically done, but greek and cyrillic need work
01:46:58 <oren> but the next on my list is hankaku katakana
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02:06:49 <Aearnus> So, have you guys used m4 before
02:07:36 <oren> I seem to recall using it for... something... a long time ago
02:09:00 * oren reloads youtube
02:09:06 <oren> FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
02:09:37 <oren> YOU BLEW IT UP, YOU MANIACS!
02:10:46 <shachaf> oren: that's going in the wrong direction hth
02:10:59 <shachaf> please draw RIGHT-TO-LEFT OVERRIDE next
02:12:00 <oren> FUCK, STOP RUINING EVERYTHING WITH TRANSPARENT BULLSHIT
02:12:44 <oren> I WANT THE INTERNAT BACK THE WAY IT WAS IN 2002
02:20:05 <oren> IS IT TOO MUCH TO ASK THAT PEOPLE KEEP THINGS THE WAY THEYARE
02:20:42 <Aearnus> I like my left aligned, white background courier new damnit!
02:25:48 <oren> Aearnus: that's the internet from 1994 about avtually
02:26:44 <oren> 2002 had CSS, it just didn't have all these pointless effects that hinder usablity
02:26:50 <Aearnus> oren: although honestly, with nice spacing and alignment, that courier new website can look perfectly fine
02:27:49 <oren> One site that has kept its usablity, with no bullshit, all these years is newgrounds.com
02:27:50 <Aearnus> The only time I've ever used illiterate CSS (as I've taken to calling it) is when I made an icon wobble when you mouse over it on for fun
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02:37:20 <oren> anyone on this channel who works for google: tell the youtube team to give me a "switch to the old player" button
02:42:11 <oren> I have html5 disabled. flash is great, it is mature
02:42:37 <oren> Flash has wroked fine for me since 1998
02:44:57 <oren> I remember when it was always called Shockwave Flash
02:46:24 <oren> .swf files were a mainstay of animation and gaming throughout my adolescence. I won't hear anybody badmouth it!
02:46:50 <shachaf> I wish this channel had a bit less yelling.
02:47:14 <pikhq> WOULD YOU PREFER IT IF I YELL
02:47:38 <oren> Windows XP! Shockwave Flash! Table Layouts! IFrames!
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02:48:58 <oren> There was nothing wrong with any of those from a USER's point of view. But they must be replaces becuase some shitwizards decided for us.
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02:49:57 <pikhq> The main reason that SWF in particular is dying is because it's a pile of insecure crap that Adobe can't be assed to fix.
02:51:23 <pikhq> Table layouts and iframes are just out of vogue. They're still perfectly valid HTML.
02:51:26 <oren> They could solve it easily by having a user-whitelist of urls that embedded SWFs can come from.
02:51:43 <pikhq> Yes, and Firefox has it.
02:51:55 <pikhq> I whitelist Flash on: Youtube
02:52:20 <pikhq> But, yeah, Adobe is basically trying to kill SWF.
02:52:46 <pikhq> Officially it isn't, but they're only begrudgingly doing any sort of improvements on it.
02:52:59 <oren> I should contribute to an effort to write a open-source swf player
02:53:36 <oren> assuming there is one
02:54:19 <pikhq> I believe the furthest along one is Shumway, which is a Mozilla project.
02:54:52 <oren> I'm too busy to actually write code, but do they have a patreon on something?
02:54:55 <pikhq> Shumway's kinda neat in that it's actually implementing SWF on top of HTML5 and Javascript.
02:55:31 <oren> So long as SWF's I downloaded in 2007 still play
02:55:59 <pikhq> The goal is to get it to do just that. Basically passing SWFs to it instead of a plugin.
02:56:22 <pikhq> (ATM it does that, but it's not at all the default and such)
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03:02:23 <coppro> the other, better, goal is to kill swfs
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03:22:20 <Sgeo> So Homestuck will keep working?
03:23:16 <oren> you know what, fuck this. I'm gonna watch my videos through vlc from now on, until youtube's player isn't shit
03:26:57 <oren> show the fucking progress bar while the video is playing, assholes
03:31:58 <oren> they don't, you have to keep moving your mouse
03:32:11 <oren> otherwise it disappears
03:32:41 <oren> also the progress bar no longer shows the runtime.
03:33:08 <oren> well in HTML5 anyway
03:33:34 <oren> luckily I know how to disable that
03:34:42 <oren> about:config, you turn off webm
03:35:17 <oren> presto, the better, but still ruined, youtube flah player
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03:41:11 <Aearnus> DID SOMEONE SAY TABLE LAYOUTS
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04:11:47 <oren> Hmm... where can I get a big zipfile full of all the ceritficate authorities' pems
04:16:59 <pikhq> I'd be happy to give you one containing all of them including mine if you give me a minute.
04:17:59 <pikhq> "Honest pikhq's Certificate Authority! Certificates right away, no questions asked or your money back!"
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04:20:58 <oren> shachaf: sure. See, this program doesn't let me specify not to verify the stupid https.
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04:22:01 <oren> but it does let me specify one or more pems to use as authorities
04:22:44 <oren> so if I have all the authorities, then that should let me connect to the damn thing
04:23:58 <oren> security may allow freedom of speech, but all I want right now is the freedom to NOt be secure
04:24:24 <pikhq> What distro are you on?
04:24:48 <oren> puppy linux. I am trying to use vlc to watch an internet stream
04:24:59 <pikhq> They typically have trusted roots somewhere in /etc...
04:25:18 <pikhq> Oh, that's made out of Ubuntu these days, isn't it?
04:25:57 <oren> I have an empty folder called /etc/ssl/certs. so now where do I download all the certs!?!?!
04:26:07 <pikhq> For fucks sake, it's empty?!?
04:26:54 <oren> can I torrent the cets from somewhere maybe
04:28:36 <oren> ok I found some pem files but I probably need a few hundred since I don't know which one I need
04:31:03 <oren> googled torrent ssl certs .pem files doesn't give me anything. shit. back when I needed .dlls that would have given me everything I needed!
04:32:11 <oren> ssl certs pem files collection rar did not give me a damn thing
04:33:50 <oren> Ooh I found a command to download the certificate for any url
04:35:27 <Sgeo> If that works the way I imagine that works, better not be MITMed when you do it
04:35:40 <Sgeo> Although first-connect MITM is always a risk anyway
04:35:53 <Sgeo> Oh, for a different reason
04:36:13 <Sgeo> (forcing http. But doing what you're doing can get you fake https)
04:39:11 <oren> fake https, real https, I want my damn videos
04:41:59 <oren> yeah this works. I first use the command to get the pem for the video link, then trust it directly with the vlc --http-ca
04:42:38 <oren> If I see the right video, then I haven't been MITMed
04:44:10 <shachaf> what if a few pixels are off
04:44:26 <shachaf> what if someone has subtly altered your reality
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04:46:07 <zzo38> If you want proper security you should agree the codes in person
04:47:12 <zzo38> Some webpages refuse to display without scripts on (sometimes to try to stop you from copying stuff to the clipboard or saving pictures or whatever), but Stylish can be used to fix this (the "Inspector" command can also be used to help with such thing)
05:01:04 <oren> ok I found a better mothod
05:01:44 <oren> you take http://curl.haxx.se/ca/cacert.pem and put it in .local/share/vlc/ssl/certs/
05:03:57 <oren> I need to remember where to find this megacert file in case I need it again
05:06:05 <Aearnus> http://prntscr.com/80lpzg cinnamon is good(tm)
05:09:21 <Aearnus> i illegally acquired my linux
05:16:15 <Hoolootwo> whatever it is, it's not cinnamon's fault unless it's doing something extraordinarily dumb
05:17:46 <Aearnus> it's probably the vm it's running in for some reason or another
05:21:49 <zzo38> What window managers any of you people who use Linux are using, and is it with a desktop environment too?
05:29:27 <Aearnus> zzo38: using xfce but I rather dislike it because gtk2 is meh
05:30:31 <zzo38> Aearnus: Maybe you should change it?
05:30:47 <zzo38> I removed the one that came with my computer and replaced it
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05:46:45 <Aearnus> zzo38: well, I installed xfce
05:47:04 <Aearnus> it's not bad, just not my favorite
05:48:23 <oren> I now have all the halfwidth katakana
05:53:45 <zzo38> You said because of gtk2, what way would you prefer?
05:54:01 <Aearnus> zzo38: well I'd like gtk3 support but w/e honestly
05:54:17 <Aearnus> I need a WM that works well on a laptop
05:54:28 <Aearnus> (maybe even one that works well with a touchscreen)
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05:57:17 <zzo38> What is the difference of gtk2 with gtk3?
05:57:46 <Aearnus> zzo38: gtk2 is just deprecated, that's all
05:58:52 <zzo38> I would prefer Athena widgets
06:11:12 <Aearnus> alright, I'm trying MATE, LXDE, and IceWM
06:14:32 <Aearnus> iceWM crashed my laptop, promising
06:15:48 <zzo38> I am using i3-wm, so that is another thing to try (although I am not using all of the other programs that commonly come with it, just the window manager and a custom status bar)
06:16:58 <zzo38> But do you have the other information of it?
06:18:01 <Aearnus> I'm not a fan of tiling WMs
06:18:09 <Aearnus> but maybe I should be, on my small screen space
06:18:19 <Aearnus> are there any that have emacs-esq keybinds?
06:20:57 <Aearnus> maybe I'll try catwm https://github.com/pyknite/catwm
06:24:26 <Aearnus> alright, i'll also try pekwm, fluxbox, openbox, i3, and awesome
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06:26:02 <myname> herbstluft can make empty frames. that works a lot better for me than what i3 does
06:27:40 <myname> i used pek before switching to tiling
06:30:30 <Aearnus> i guess i'll try herbsluft too
06:31:52 <Aearnus> ugh, i really don't like icewm
06:37:38 <Aearnus> pekwm is okay, it doesn't use the system menu which is frustrating though
06:39:23 <zzo38> I just load programs with the xterm (except for the xterm itself I can push Win+Enter to load it), so no menu is needed
06:40:25 <Aearnus> fluxbox is okay - better than pekwm, but it acts weird with my mouse
06:43:17 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
06:44:40 <Aearnus> oren: it looks a little blurry on windows
06:45:15 <Aearnus> http://prntscr.com/80mbc2 like, look at the @ sign
06:45:43 <oren> Ok wtf. That is some weird shit
06:46:04 <oren> I'm on linux, it doesn't look like that...
06:47:11 <oren> I should fuse the page to an image for people who don't have CSS3 fonts turned on
06:49:50 <Aearnus> i3 freezes on start, promising
06:54:34 <Aearnus> alright, right now, the listing is, from worst to best: icewm, fluxbox, pekwm, i3, openbox, lxde
07:01:01 <mroman> Lol. people doing "self-experiments" and try to live without a smartphone
07:01:33 <mroman> Obviously you can live without a smartphone. That's how we used to live 10 years ago.
07:01:55 <mroman> and only few people died 10 years ago because they had no smartphone
07:02:17 <zzo38> I do not have a smartphone
07:02:30 <myname> mroman: i guess you underestimate that
07:02:37 <mroman> myname: underestimate what?
07:03:12 <myname> it changes things a lot
07:03:24 <mroman> I bought my first smartphone not even a year ago
07:04:18 <mroman> and I usually leave it at home when I leave the house.
07:04:41 <mroman> I mean.. Smartphones are cool
07:04:43 <mroman> they have nice features.
07:04:54 <mroman> You can use the internet from the smartphone on your laptop
07:04:57 <mroman> which is mainly why I bought it
07:04:58 <myname> without it, it'd be bored to hell
07:05:11 <mroman> because in my new flat room there was no internet.
07:05:15 <zzo38> I don't like touchscreen either
07:05:26 <mroman> so I bought it with an internet subscription mainly for that purpose :)
07:05:29 <myname> well, my laptop practically doesn't work without a power plug
07:06:08 <mroman> a Smartphone has two good features
07:06:15 <myname> reading manga on android is just so comfortable <3
07:06:18 <mroman> Mobile Hot Spot/Tethering and google maps
07:06:41 <mroman> Google maps for navigation, yeah
07:06:54 <mroman> I have a stereo for playing music :)
07:07:15 <myname> won't help you if you're not at home
07:07:27 <mroman> why would I listen to music if I'm not at home?
07:07:39 <mroman> Why would you want to do that? :p
07:08:06 <mroman> If I'm at work I can listen music on my workplace laptop + headphones
07:08:27 <mroman> If I'm at home I can listen on my stereo
07:08:37 <mroman> the only thing left is "when travelling from home to work"
07:08:47 <zzo38> For music I have radio, CD, and computer. If I go to somewhere else, if they have radio then I can listen to the CBC radio. As it turns out I can also get music from my VCR, even when the TV is not turned on
07:09:24 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.png
07:09:34 <oren> it is supposed to look like that
07:09:39 <myname> i'd like to hear music or podcasts while riding my bike, for example
07:10:36 <zzo38> Also, the CBC radio isn't only music, anyways
07:11:40 <mroman> but yeah... smartphones are pretty practical.
07:12:01 <Aearnus> the two best DE's in my opinion are lxde < xfce < mate
07:12:16 <mroman> I usually take it with when doing parkour
07:12:24 <mroman> mostly so I can call someone if I happen to have an accident :)
07:14:10 <myname> i'd use a dumbphone for that purpose
07:16:01 <mroman> In case it gets stolen?
07:17:21 <oren> parkour sounds like asking for a broken screen
07:17:51 <myname> it is cheaper in case it breaks during actions, it is less likely to break, the battery lasts way longer
07:20:09 <oren> I should use those characters to make an animation module for ncurses vlc
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07:21:57 <myname> i thought of making a ncurses chess using the chess figures in unicode
07:22:00 <oren> you know, like bars that go up and down to the music
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07:22:52 <oren> I need to improve symbol support in my font
07:23:14 <oren> I don't have chess only the four suits
07:24:48 <mroman> oren: you keep it in a backpack.
07:24:56 <myname> i guess you could make nice simulation games with unicode symbols
07:25:07 <myname> or something like sim city
07:25:12 <mroman> which you just put down somewhere near.
07:25:20 <mroman> It'd be pretty easy to steal.
07:25:54 <myname> mroman: so, in case of emergency yo crawl over rooftops to your backpack and call an ambulance?
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07:33:23 <Aearnus> after extensive testing, i've concluded
07:33:26 <Aearnus> that i want to go back to xfce
07:44:02 <mroman> It'd be pretty much illegal to jump over someone else's rooftop
07:44:22 <mroman> also most practitioners don't do rooftop things btw.
07:44:42 <mroman> also flat rooftops are rare in switzerland for example
07:45:43 <mroman> (Parkour itself is somewhat in a gray area)
07:46:13 <mroman> Technically you're only allowed to train on your own or public property.
07:46:23 <mroman> (or on someone else's with his permission)
07:47:01 <mroman> However, you will be frequently shooed away from public property by police or some government employee
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07:48:01 <mroman> if you fall on someones property, the owner is accountable
07:48:10 <mroman> which is the government for public properties
07:50:09 <mroman> and it looks like some US cities have a general ban on doing parkour o_O
07:50:29 <mroman> "Though no injuries have been reported, the city’s attorney is worried that someone will get hurt and the city will get sued."
07:50:40 <mroman> yeah, that's number one reason they don't want you to train on public property.
07:55:08 <mroman> and you obviously destroy public property
07:56:25 <mroman> handrails aren't usually designed to withstand too much horizontal force although thank god most are stable enough but in the long run you destroy them
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08:00:31 <oren> I have reached 1000 glyphs
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08:38:07 <mroman> if you travel into a country
08:38:13 <mroman> and step on a landmine
08:38:28 <mroman> health insurance won't pay :)
08:38:35 <Taneb> What if you glue the landmine to your foo
08:38:49 <mroman> also if you get hurt during an earthquake
08:39:02 <Taneb> Is this health insurance or travel insurance
08:39:34 <mroman> they also won't pay if a nuclear plant explodes
08:39:54 <mroman> they don't pay for damage caused by ionizing radiation
08:40:05 <Taneb> What about travel insurance
08:40:25 <mroman> Isn't that so you can get your money back if war breaks out in some country
08:40:49 <mroman> like if you book a year in advance, you can insure yourself in case you actually can't go on that vacation for some important reason
08:41:46 <fizzie> All travel insurances I've had have had a medical expenses component.
08:44:20 <mroman> Yeah I think the obligotary health insurance doesn't pay for stuff that happens in a foreign country
08:44:25 <oren> don't go to countries with landmines
08:44:27 <mroman> if you have to visit a hospital there you're fucked
08:46:11 <fizzie> The travel insurance provided by my employer also covers personal travel (and my wife, although only if she's travelling with me), but it's kind of limited to only cover medical/health stuff, not so much cancellation costs or lost luggage or that kind of stuff.
08:47:13 <mroman> ideally you have a better insurance than just the obligatory one
08:47:33 <mroman> if you go missing on a hike and they have to search you you're fucked with the regular one :D
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08:50:17 <mroman> I don't know this looks suspicious
08:50:48 <mroman> they list things under complementary insurances that should already be covered by the obligatory one.
08:53:32 <mroman> This is a legal jungle and information is spread across miles!
08:56:12 <mroman> law is good to fuck people over
08:56:19 <mroman> because it's totally asynchronous information
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08:56:52 <mroman> you can rely on people not knowing everything because they really don't know everything they should.
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09:06:18 <mroman> https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/anti-social-behaviour-crime-and-police-bill
09:07:41 <Taneb> mroman, that seems like it ought to be at least two different acts
09:11:02 <mroman> I can't find the actual law text anyway
09:11:17 <mroman> just 70 pages long documents with "impact assessments" "fact sheets" and stuff like that
09:11:30 <Taneb> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2014/12/contents/enacted/data.htm
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09:14:46 <mroman> "surrender of property"
09:15:03 <mroman> they can take away your smartphone for 48 hours :D
09:18:13 <mroman> "conduct that has caused, or is likely to cause, harassment, alarm or distress to any person,"
09:18:19 <mroman> that's a very broad definition.
09:19:11 <mroman> although I wouldn't know how to define it otherwise
09:20:55 <mroman> Taneb is causing me alarm.
09:21:09 <mroman> He invents weird things.
09:21:18 <Taneb> mroman, your accusation distresses and alarms me
09:22:23 <mroman> Isn't littering against the law anyway?
09:22:33 <mroman> I mean most of the stuff is probably already covered by some other law
09:22:46 <mroman> at least here. Littering is illegal.
09:23:14 <mroman> there are legally defined rest periods and things like that
09:23:57 <Taneb> I am not sure whether littering is illegal here
09:24:15 <mroman> Rather than making such a broad law you could just make a few specific laws
09:24:23 <mroman> such as prohibiting littering, prohibit noise after 10pm
09:25:46 <fizzie> "Anti-social behaviour" is a common sight in the UK per-neighbourhood crime maps https://www.police.uk/ has.
09:25:50 <mroman> if teens go on a vandalism streak that surely is already covered by some "you may not damage an other one's property"-law
09:26:18 <mroman> "Find your neighbourhood"
09:26:34 <mroman> "Gosforth and great park"
09:27:03 <fizzie> It lags by a few months.
09:27:12 <fizzie> "Bicycle theft (1): Includes the taking without consent or theft of a pedal cycle"
09:27:34 <mroman> 101 were anti-social behaviour
09:27:59 <Taneb> mroman, I think I used to live in Gosforth
09:28:01 <mroman> that's a lot of sex offences for a month though
09:28:17 <fizzie> "Sex offences", IIRC, include things like domestic violence.
09:28:34 <Taneb> mroman, the Gosforth in Newcastle that is
09:29:03 <mroman> I lived there for two weeks :p
09:30:06 <Taneb> mroman, you realise that it is dangerously (25 miles) close to Hexham?
09:30:55 <mroman> Why is that dangerous?
09:31:31 <Taneb> Because one day you might go out for a drive and wind up in Hexham
09:31:48 <mroman> I don't think I'll ever be back in gosforth
09:31:55 <mroman> It was a two week language stay
09:32:22 <Taneb> Currently I am in "York City and East"
09:32:35 <fizzie> Two weeks, and you're already sure you'll never be back? Must be a horrible place.
09:33:06 <Taneb> mroman, when I was very small my gran used to push me around Gosforth Park
09:33:38 <mroman> fizzie: I mean I'm pretty certain I'll never leave switzerland ever again.
09:33:59 <mroman> but it's very unlikely that I wind up in Gosforth again
09:34:01 <Taneb> I won't leave Switzerland for a very long time
09:34:12 <Taneb> Largely because I am not in Switzerland and have little reason to visit
09:34:27 <fizzie> I think I've left Switzerland twice already.
09:34:36 <mroman> We have Cities in Switzerland.
09:34:44 <mroman> like any other country :D
09:35:00 <Taneb> I don't think, eg, the Vatican has cities plural
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09:35:24 <mroman> Vatican isn't a real country *blasphemy*
09:35:39 <mroman> and it has a huge crime rate
09:36:19 <mroman> it has the highest crime rate in the world
09:37:22 <myname> http://qz.com/333313/milliions-of-facebook-users-have-no-idea-theyre-using-the-internet/
09:37:22 <mroman> and the monarch is some guy that speaks to some other imaginative guy
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10:24:30 <Taneb> Union-Find data structure is really interesting
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11:02:29 <mroman> final int i = Interpreter.builtins.get(s);
11:02:36 <mroman> how can this throw nullpointerexception?
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11:07:02 <myname> in java, everything can throw a nullpointer exception
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11:09:21 <mroman> only if you dereference a NullPointer
11:09:52 <mroman> get() usually doesn't throw NullPointerException
11:10:07 <mroman> however, unboxing a NullPointer will
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12:46:15 <oren> I'm getting quite adept at copypasting video links into VLC
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13:01:53 <oren> seems like Latin B is mostly more IPA
13:04:44 <b_jonas> I just got an internal error that's supposed to be really impossible
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13:25:26 <Taneb> My spellchecker doesn't recognize the word "underdocumented"
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13:30:31 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's probably set to some language other than English
13:30:47 <Taneb> It seems to recognize every word in this sentence
13:31:23 <Taneb> So I suspect it is set to English, just is missing a few words, and counts ' as a wordbreak
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14:09:40 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monad_crap
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14:32:20 <Melvar> ( filter [| fst == snd |] [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
14:32:21 <idris-bot> [(42, 42)] : List (Integer, Integer)
14:34:00 <Melvar> ( filter (do !fst == 42) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
14:34:00 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate since no name has a suitable type:
14:34:00 <idris-bot> Prelude.List.filter, Data.VectType.Vect.filter
14:34:15 <Melvar> ( List.filter (do !fst == 42) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
14:34:15 <idris-bot> When checking an application of function Prelude.List.filter:
14:34:15 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate since no name has a suitable type:
14:34:15 <idris-bot> Effects.>>=, BotPrelude.LiftEq.>>=, Prelude.Monad.>>=
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15:07:35 <Melvar> ( filter (do !fst == 42) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
15:07:35 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate since no name has a suitable type:
15:07:35 <idris-bot> Prelude.List.filter, Data.VectType.Vect.filter
15:07:42 <Melvar> ( List.filter (do !fst == 42) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
15:07:42 <idris-bot> When checking an application of function Prelude.List.filter:
15:07:42 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate since no name has a suitable type:
15:07:42 <idris-bot> Effects.>>=, BotPrelude.LiftEq.>>=, Prelude.Monad.>>=
15:08:15 <Melvar> ( filter (do pure $ !fst == 42) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
15:08:15 <idris-bot> [(42, 42)] : List (Integer, Integer)
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15:12:35 <myname> i don't get why you are doing do in the first place
15:23:20 <Melvar> ( filter (pure $ !fst == 42) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
15:23:20 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate since no name has a suitable type:
15:23:20 <idris-bot> Effects.>>=, BotPrelude.LiftEq.>>=, Prelude.Monad.>>=
15:23:39 <Melvar> myname: I need it to anchor the !.
15:24:08 <Melvar> Because I’m having fun.
15:24:18 <myname> it just looks too much like haskell
15:24:33 <Melvar> ( filter ((==42) . fst) [(1,2), (5,7), (42,42), (1000,10000)]
15:24:33 <idris-bot> [(42, 42)] : List (Integer, Integer)
15:25:05 <myname> but it doesn't use monads
15:25:17 <myname> that may be a downside, depending on what you like
15:25:26 <Melvar> myname: So anyway, with bang bindings the “do x” ≡ “x” rule no longer holds.
15:27:12 <Melvar> A nice example is that “forever (putStrLn !getLine)” is a yes program, and “forever (do putStrLn !getLine)” is a cat program.
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15:32:53 <Melvar> ( [| sum / (cast . length) |] [1,4,6]
15:34:37 <Melvar> myname: I recently added the unwrapped reader monad to my BotPrelude, and am now having fun with ways to abuse it.
15:35:08 <myname> i don't really know idris :/
15:35:41 <Melvar> [| |] are idiom brackets, which do an applicative application (they add pure and (<*>)).
15:36:28 <Melvar> So “[| sum / (cast . length) |]” desugars to “pure (/) <*> sum <*> (cast . length)”.
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18:48:51 <Filystyn> helo i need help with brainfuk
18:49:37 <Filystyn> brainfuck on this site http://esoteric.sange.fi/brainfuck/impl/interp/i.html?b=&i=123&o= blocks in inf loop when i ,[>,-]<.
18:51:24 <Slereah__> You always switch to the next cell
18:51:33 <ais523> the loop should end if you get ASCII 1 as input
18:51:38 <ais523> because you do ,- just before the end of the loop
18:51:48 <ais523> probably you haven't been giving any code 1 as input
18:51:59 <ais523> Slereah__: on most browsers, you can't
18:52:21 <Filystyn> stop ok i see you are going to help
18:52:21 <fizzie> For the record, the implementation is an EOF == 0 one.
18:52:52 <ais523> well, what are you trying to do at a larger level
18:53:13 <Filystyn> i want to read chars untill i find char with value 10
18:53:16 <ais523> I'm finding it hard to help because you seem to have a mental model of what's going wrong, but I don't know what that model is
18:53:46 <ais523> so you'd want something like ,----------[>,----------] for the read loop
18:53:53 <ais523> to test for 10, you have to subtract 10 then test against 0
18:54:12 <ais523> what do you want to do after you get your newline? (I'm assuming this is an implementation where newline = 10, it normally is)
18:54:28 <Filystyn> basicly go back and read last char i think i see the problem now
18:55:01 <Filystyn> ok i seem to get what i was doing wrong
18:57:15 <Filystyn> i accualy had working code but i thought that if i decrement zero it stays zero so i did not make new line but simply assumed that at end of output it will stop
18:58:41 <ais523> decrementing zero gives you -1, which on many implementations is equivalent to 255 (implementations which work like that are called "8-bit wrapping")
18:59:04 <ais523> but hardly any implementations adjust -1 to 0
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19:29:55 <Melvar> The usual brainfucks don’t have any runtime errors to speak of, do they?
19:30:15 <ais523> Melvar: < off the LHS of the tape is sometimes considered a runtime error
19:30:25 <ais523> although in some implementations, it extends the tape to the left
19:30:54 <Melvar> Oh right, there’s ones with non-bidirectionally-infinite tapes.
19:31:24 <ais523> !bf8 <+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.
19:52:34 <tswett> Why haven't I created that Haskell EDSL for brainfuck yet?
19:53:40 <tswett> Maybe it's because I have lots of better things to do.
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20:23:05 <b_jonas> hehe. a free software source readme describes what you need to build from source. it says “a reasonable C compiler (gcc, Visual Studio, etc.)”
20:23:22 <b_jonas> they apparently count Visual Studio as a reasonable C compiler.
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20:23:45 <b_jonas> I'd say “a reasonable C compiler (gcc, etc.) or Visual Studio
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20:32:14 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
20:32:16 <tswett> 09:59:42: <lambdabot> CYUL 231320Z 07006KT ESCABON SCT069 BKN022 B00/27 M19/M09 Q1000 RMK SC1SC0AC2 SCT038 BKN042 14/04 Q1005 RMK SCT000 M02/M00 Q1096 RMK BIN019 SCT000 03/03 Q1020 RMK R00 NOSIG
20:32:46 <tswett> b_jonas: what do you find unreasonable about VS?
20:34:56 <MDude> I tried using VS once and got it to go into some weird state where it was automatcially routing stdout to a file for no reason.
20:35:35 <ais523> VS has so much persistent configuration, it makes configuring it very hard
20:35:53 <ais523> I prefer the mechanism whereby you use command-line options every time (normally automated via shellscripts or makefiles)
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21:05:24 <zzo38> I would have prefer to write something like "a C compiler (known to work with: GCC, Visual Studio)"
21:06:48 <MDude> "requires: an unreasonable C compiler (must put empty cartons back in the freezer)"
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21:07:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, that may be nicer
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21:52:12 <oerjan> <mroman> damn I hate this. <-- clearly the only insurance worth having is one that insures you against not having the right insurances.
21:52:56 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> damn I hate this. <-- clearly the only insurance worth having is one that insures you against not having the right insurances.
21:53:18 <oerjan> like in this case, an insurance against swatting due to obnoxious idleness
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21:56:13 <Melvar> ( [| sum / (cast . length) |]
21:56:14 <idris-bot> prim__divFloat (Prelude.List.List instance of Prelude.Foldable.Foldable, method foldr (\meth => \meth => prim__addFloat meth meth) 0.0 r)
21:56:14 <idris-bot> (prim__toFloatBigInt (toIntegerNat (length r))) : List Double -> Double
21:56:41 <Melvar> ( [| sum / (cast . length) |] [1,3,6,8]
21:58:07 <Melvar> The prims sometimes have ridiculous names.
21:58:45 <fizzie> Oh, it's like (toFloat)(BigInt).
21:58:49 <shachaf> oerjan: can i buy swatting insurance twhib
21:58:59 <fizzie> Not (something else)to(FloatBigInt).
21:59:39 <Melvar> Furthermore, only the float and string conversions are named like that. The ones among integertypes are {sext,zext,trunc}$typeA_$typeB .
22:00:30 <Melvar> But for float and string you have {to,from}{Float,Str}$othertype .
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22:02:29 <Melvar> This is related to the way they’re automatically generated; on the compiler-internal type there’s an algebraic data type representing these, and some constructors take IntTy or ArithTy arguments, and the float and string conversions are other constructors than the conversions among integers.
22:02:36 <shachaf> `le/rn twhib/the world holds its breath
22:03:26 <Melvar> On the other hand, toIntegerNat is not a prim, and I can’t fathom the thought process that went into its name.
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22:19:20 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know, i'm not in the insurance business
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22:28:14 <b_jonas> ICFP contest starts in 2.5 days
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23:03:20 <HackEgo> pineapple/Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
23:03:32 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
23:03:50 <boily> I can't decide which one is my favourite.
23:05:38 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/therefore//' wisdom/pineapple
23:06:28 <boily> I think chess is better, don't you think so?
23:08:19 <shachaf> WHEREAS, pineapple is a hybrid species descended from multiple ancestors; WHEREAS, these ancestors include spinach and wild ivy; NOW, THEREFORE, pineapple is declared to be a class 6 vegetable.
23:08:37 <shachaf> boily: what do you think about diplomacy twhib
23:08:46 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, making it a class 6 vegetable.
23:09:07 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/pineapple # thoerjan
23:10:04 <oerjan> shachaf: you were saved from a swat only by my network disconnecting hth
23:10:40 <shachaf> oerjan: A swat for forgetting to remove a space?
23:11:01 <shachaf> spot of the tyranny, governor?
23:18:33 <boily> what kind of diplomacy? and wherefore so much hate for the there therefore?
23:19:30 <shachaf> and i don't know why oerjan is such a h8r hth
23:19:32 <boily> never played, definitely in an advantageous position on my gaming checklist.
23:19:43 * boily tries to ungrump oerjan
23:20:03 * boily applies ancient Chinese techniques on oerjan
23:20:12 <boily> *gasp*! he has updated?
23:20:36 <shachaf> i'm playing diplomacy online with some folks
23:20:56 <boily> gghghghghbhg flblblblblblbl...
23:32:11 <oerjan> shachaf: betray everyone hth
23:34:45 <oerjan> boily: actually, i don't see anything that's significantly more broken, once i got rid of that Edge thing. and it starts up much faster after hibernation.
23:35:31 <oerjan> oh and i had to redownload a touchpad driver
23:35:43 <oerjan> that was annoying, but it was annoying before anyway
23:35:52 <shachaf> spot of the hibernation, governor?
23:36:00 <oerjan> with some luck it will now work properly.
23:36:02 <shachaf> I have no idea if it works.
23:36:19 <oerjan> shachaf: i do it all the time. also _ordinary_ reboot definitely got a bit slower now.
23:36:43 <oerjan> (er my 2nd last comment was about the touchpad driver)
23:37:25 <oerjan> i've had no problems with hibernation itself in a long time. maybe not since my previous laptop.
23:37:32 <shachaf> You redownload your touchpad driver all the time?
23:37:54 <oerjan> no, but it had a tendency of dying on unsuspending
23:38:17 <oerjan> hm i guess that technically was a hibernation problem
23:38:49 <oerjan> it got less annoying when i found out how to reset it without rebooting.
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00:26:31 <oerjan> <tswett> Why haven't I created that Haskell EDSL for brainfuck yet? <-- because BF syntax and haskell syntax aren't very compatible hth
00:27:58 <oerjan> i don't think e.g. [>,] will ever parse as haskell
00:28:10 <tswett> loop (right `then` input)
00:29:15 <oerjan> also that should clearly be loop $ do right; input
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00:35:05 <shachaf> oerjan: why make it a monad if every action returns () twhib
00:36:10 <HackEgo> the world holds its breath
00:36:59 <oerjan> hm i think ` just became a dead key in putty. let me see if that means they've started working in google...
00:40:44 <oerjan> hm it's possible gvim also treats ` more sanely now
00:41:40 <oerjan> shachaf: does *ib mean what i suspect it means twhib
00:42:03 <shachaf> what do you suspect it means twhib
00:42:14 <oerjan> that would be telling tdnhib
00:42:52 <shachaf> when you say it it means just what you want it to mean hth
00:43:39 * oerjan actually has two guesses but this one is funnier
00:43:52 <shachaf> I had a meaning for it earlier but I forgot.
00:44:10 <oerjan> my boring guess was "i bet"
00:48:42 <oren> I have 1151 characters
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01:04:20 <oerjan> hm i wonder if gamma got reset to the wrong value
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01:08:10 <oerjan> for my screen, when updating to windows 10
01:08:29 <oerjan> it was set back to 1.0, which is ridiculously dark
01:08:53 <oerjan> if i could remember what value i put it at last time...
01:09:03 <oren> no, why did you upgrade, didn't you read in the Register about how shit it is?
01:10:00 <oerjan> nope, i'm pretty sure uk newspapers are no authority on shit
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01:11:21 <oerjan> why is it shit btw, it is quite possible i disabled a lot of those things
01:11:59 <oren> It collects all your private data and sends it to the cloud
01:12:13 <shachaf> Everything does that these days.
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01:13:19 <oerjan> oren: sounds like most of the toggles i changed (i changed _all_ the toggles in the install setup)
01:13:42 <oren> Oh. then you just have to worry about the next update changing them back
01:14:56 <oren> I recently bought a XP disk
01:15:55 <oren> I'm gonna use it on my new laptop when I buy one
01:15:59 <oerjan> i found the log discussion from last time i looked at the gamma, let's see if i was wise enough to mention the final settings
01:16:24 <oren> so I can dual boot Debian and Windows XP
01:16:47 <oerjan> nope, i guess i should try the calibration site linked
01:17:40 <oren> I have some 32-bit games that don't work in Win7
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01:18:40 <oren> Is it possible to tri-boot Win7, XP and Debian?
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01:39:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Skrundz * New user account
01:45:24 <oren> I was going to post a long message on facebook, until I realized I should put it on my website instead
01:50:35 * oerjan concludes with R:1.3, G:1.3, B:1.2
01:51:07 <zzo38> You don't need to make it a monad if every action returns () just make a monoid instead. If you do need a monad you can then use it with a writer monad, to make the monad.
01:52:39 <oerjan> (that test requires turning off the lights)
01:53:50 <oerjan> the problem with a laptop monitor is that it doesn't have half the settings that test suggests adjusting, and some of those it does have are software fakes. but at least it has gamma settings.
01:54:41 <oerjan> istr i concluded the same last time, and adjusted only the gamma. that sharpness thing looked horribly off though, but i see no setting for it.
01:55:01 <oren> I have never adjusted the gamma on anything
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01:55:40 <oerjan> oren: then you may or may not be getting a lousy view
01:56:02 <oerjan> i adjusted it (both times) because dark pictures look too dark otherwise
01:56:32 <oren> How far away should I be from the screen to adjutst it with these patterns
01:58:09 <oerjan> oh. it probably says somewhere, i didn't pay that much attention this time
01:58:33 <oerjan> it's not like the settings menu is tremendously accurate
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01:58:48 <oren> fuck now everything is almost white
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01:59:28 <oerjan> i guess something went wrong then
02:00:08 <oerjan> oh btw i used the patterns on http://www.lagom.nl/lcd-test/gamma_calibration.php
02:00:25 <oerjan> i noticed that windows has some patterns itself
02:00:37 <oren> something went worng alright. I'm putting it bakc the way it was. I can see dark images by tliting the screen anyway.
02:01:13 <oerjan> you're supposed to do the previous tests first, i sort of ended up ignoring them
02:01:43 <oerjan> (i have no real contrast setting)
02:02:37 <oren> Looks like the defaults settings were basically perfect
02:03:43 <oerjan> i guess if you have a monitor which actually _supports_ the standards, it would do that...
02:05:27 <coppro> for me it really depends on the vertical angle
02:05:30 <oren> this is a laptop monitor from 2006. I dunno
02:05:31 <oerjan> btw my gamma adjustment was just with 2-3 points from the default.
02:05:31 <coppro> I can make it have any value I want
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02:06:19 <oerjan> oren: that's about as old as that site is...
02:06:40 <oerjan> presumably physics hasn't changed much in that time.
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02:07:29 <oerjan> `` yes | nl | head -10 | shuf
02:07:30 <HackEgo> 9y \ 4y \ 7y \ 6y \ 1y \ 10y \ 2y \ 8y \ 5y \ 3y
02:07:51 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: aka shuffle hth
02:09:50 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan: Yes. Shuffle, but we care about time complexity
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02:10:30 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: fisher-yates is O(n) hth
02:13:47 <oren> right. but can we reduce time complexity in line with reducing possible permutions?
02:15:26 <oerjan> not by more than a small constant
02:15:58 <oerjan> you mean by making it _not_ a perfect shuffle?
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02:20:53 <hppavilion[1]> That'd just be a sorting algorithm with a non-traditional issorted()
02:23:43 <oren> what about making n^0.75 swaps?
02:26:52 <Sgeo> Perl 6 keeps putting me in mind of lenses, though it's missing things
02:27:06 <Sgeo> At least I think it's missing things, I feel not well-versed in lenses to say for sure
02:27:18 <Sgeo> More that... it allows for similar expressivity
02:29:02 <oren> or n^(some constant near 1) anyway
02:31:39 <oren> suppose you have some ζ near 1. perform fisher-yates shuffle but skip some steps so that you only perform N^ζ swaps. For example, skip at 1/(N-N^ζ) intervals.
02:32:19 <oren> that gives you a continuous range of worse and worse shuffles
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02:54:34 <oren> An amusing consequence of O notation
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02:56:13 <oren> the algorithm, 'skip n random swaps from fisher-yates shuffle' seems to have worse time complexity than fisher yates itself.
02:56:43 <oren> an amusing consequence of the way time complexity is defined rather
02:58:20 <zzo38> The DM has told me that I am the only person he knows who will win the Dungeons&Dragons game by administrative chaos.
02:59:29 <oren> administrative chaos ｯﾃ ﾅﾆ?
03:16:53 <zzo38> I am not exactly sure really how he means, but it may be explained by examples, perhaps. It does seem to me, that is how you win the war, you win the war by administrative chaos; fighting might not help so much.
03:21:27 <zzo38> As they say, the pen is mightier than the sword.
03:22:38 <oren> 1197 characters. All Latin-B, Number Forms.
03:23:41 <oren> zzo38: I see. that's roleplaying!
03:32:44 <oren> what maniacs go around putting cedillas on E's?!
03:33:00 <zzo38> I don't know? Maybe it depend what language you are writing
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03:50:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43680&oldid=43597 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) /* Nonstandard Streams */ Corrected "roll" to "role"
03:52:11 <hppavilion1> I still think "stdyay" should be a standard stream
03:54:43 <oren> oerjan: that figures.
03:55:44 <oren> based on the names of poles I know, they stick random shit on all their letters
03:56:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43681&oldid=43680 * Hppavilion1 * (+102) /* #Esoteric Extended Standard Streams */ Clarified STDYAYIN usages
03:59:12 <zzo38> Brazil? I don't live at Brazil.
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04:00:06 <shachaf> oerjan: what's the secret meaning twhib
04:00:51 <shachaf> it might help in norway too
04:01:04 <oren> I wonder if it's possible to change my legal name to a Zalgo version of itself
04:01:36 <shachaf> I'm not sure that "zalgo" thing has a fixed point.
04:04:56 <oerjan> the fixed point is when all the universe has been absorbed into it hth
04:10:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43682&oldid=40286 * Quintopia * (+314)
04:11:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43683&oldid=43682 * Quintopia * (+38) /* Cleanup */
04:11:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43684&oldid=43683 * Quintopia * (+2) /* BF Constants Cleanup */
04:13:00 -!- Aearnus|IRCCloud has changed nick to Aearnus_.
04:13:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43685&oldid=43678 * Quintopia * (-59) Rdebath finished this task
04:16:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unlambda]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43686&oldid=41015 * Esowiki201529A * (+70) /* Palindromes */
04:23:41 <oren> I now cover a continuous range from U+A0 to U+2AF
04:27:25 <oerjan> shachaf: hint: fortune cookies
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04:29:36 <oren> ȠȡȢȣȤȥȦȧȨȩȪȫȬȭȮȯ
04:29:37 <oren> ȰȱȲȳȴȵȶȷȸȹȺȻȼȽȾȿ
04:29:37 <oren> ɀɁɂɃɄɅɆɇɈɉɊɋɌɍɎɏ
04:38:33 <Sgeo> Superosity's breaking the fourth wall
04:44:37 <zzo38> But did they manage to break the fifth and sixth wall yet?
04:53:39 <HackEgo> U+1F409 DRAGON \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 89 UTF-16BE: d83ddc09 Decimal: 🐉 \ 🐉 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F432 DRAGON FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 b2 UTF-16BE: d83ddc32 Decimal: 🐲 \ 🐲 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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05:00:09 <zzo38> What are your suggestions/complaints/questions about my "playmod" program (and my other programs)?
05:03:46 <oren> how to defeat caching?
05:04:00 <zzo38> What are you trying to defeat the caching of?
05:05:53 <oren> clearing my cache didn't work
05:06:11 <oren> so it is caching somewhere between me and the werver
05:06:32 <oren> Hmm what if I rename the file
05:07:13 <shachaf> zzo38: What is your "playmod" program?
05:07:28 <oren> Heh that worked
05:07:59 <zzo38> It is a program to play MOD/S3M/IT/XM and many other formats, taking the music file from stdin and write raw audio data to stdout.
05:08:22 -!- shachaf has set topic: The channel where "is not a legitimate question" is not a legitimate sentence fragment | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
05:10:03 <oren> zzo38: raw audio data in what format?
05:10:37 <zzo38> You can specify mono or stereo, and you can specify 11025 Hz or 22050 Hz or 44100 Hz, and you can specify unsigned 8-bits or signed 16-bits or signed 32-bits.
05:11:17 <zzo38> (The output may be infinite, so you might have to interrupt it)
05:14:28 <zzo38> You can push ^C to interrupt it like you can interrupt other program, although depending what you are sending the output to you might also use SIGPIPE
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05:14:55 <zzo38> (And you can also push ^Z to pause; these are same like any other programs.)
05:14:55 <shachaf> Will that always end it at a proper point?
05:15:47 <zzo38> No, it is not guaranteed. You can turn off looping though, so that it will not be infinite; still the point it ends might not necessarily be the proper point (it depends what music file you are trying to play).
05:16:05 <shachaf> But will it always stop correctly?
05:16:21 <shachaf> Maybe with raw audio it's OK.
05:16:35 <zzo38> Yes, it will always stop correctly.
05:17:13 <zzo38> It won't stop in the middle of a 16-bit or 32-bit number being output.
05:23:42 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel where "The channel where is surrounding its own quotation" is surrounding its own quotation | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
05:37:21 <zzo38> When TeX displays "1507 multiletter control sequences out of 15000+50000", why is it "15000+50000"; what is the significance of like this with the plus sign?
05:38:44 <zzo38> It is not a standard feature of TeX.
05:49:26 <zzo38> I like the Athena scroll bars, do you like that?
05:57:46 <HackEgo> danddreclist 65: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
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06:17:19 <hppavilion[1]> There wouldn't happen to be a channel about language design that isn't necessarily esoteric, is there?
06:26:13 <oerjan> what a silly idea. i remember someone mentioning #osdev which is about os'es...
06:27:34 * oerjan recalls lambda the ultimate but that's not irc/chat
06:31:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43687&oldid=43685 * Rdebath * (+1839) Now it's finished, probably. Brute forced to 16 instructions, most of the way through 17 and 100000 steps. 1000000 steps is running, nothing for this page yet.
06:31:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43688&oldid=43684 * Rdebath * (+780) /* BF Constants Cleanup */
06:44:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43689&oldid=43343 * Rdebath * (+609350) Please don't break ...
06:56:32 <oerjan> did it break, i'm scared to check
06:57:50 <b_jonas> Do I understand it right that the Apache Portable Runtime at http://apr.apache.org/ is a sort of portable basic operations library similar to libglib, and that it's broken to two packages in such a way that apr contains the algorithm stuff and apr-util contains the system-dependent stuff?
06:58:30 <b_jonas> Except it seems to be a bit newer in the design than glib.
06:59:39 <b_jonas> also, it uses longer prefixes for its symbols, apr_* and APR_* instead of g* and G*
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07:13:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload/Numbers]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43690&oldid=43028 * Esowiki201529A * (+46)
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07:18:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43691&oldid=43689 * Rdebath * (+2689) And the edit ? That works too ?!?!?
07:22:43 <b_jonas> wow, I think I just got spam in Vietnamese language, for possibly the first time
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08:05:25 <shachaf> oerjan: are you in the mood for a spot of type trickery
08:05:58 <oerjan> the timing is somewhat atrocious
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08:09:47 <shachaf> well, i'll just give you the idea
08:10:01 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]_: There's a #proglangdesign with 37 people on it.
08:10:11 <oerjan> half the point is that if i start thinking about it, i might not get to sleep
08:10:14 <fizzie> "Programming Language Design - discussing programming languages designs, especially new/radical ideas and new/lesser known languages. Old topics: type systems, memory management, parallel programming, concurrency, and implementation issues. Discussed: Python, Scala, Clojure, F#, Haskell/Clean/CAL, Go, Rust, or <insert your favorite language>"
08:10:26 <fizzie> I won't, because I'm not.
08:10:29 <fizzie> I just see the number.
08:10:46 <oerjan> (the other half is that this is one of those days where i'm having trouble deciding whether i _should_ try to sleep soon)
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08:11:09 <shachaf> > run $ plus minus minus plus
08:12:00 <shachaf> > run $ L.loop (plus minus plus) minus
08:12:23 <shachaf> trying to figure out how to make loops work (they don't really work yet)
08:12:31 <shachaf> ideally you could use [] syntax, maybe with OverloadedLists or something
08:12:58 <shachaf> oerjan: by the way, i'm currently trying to decide whether to get to sleep, so something is way off in your time zone
08:13:05 <shachaf> maybe it's your sleeping schedule hth
08:13:52 <shachaf> International Baccalaureate®
08:13:58 <oerjan> shachaf: um my sleeping schedule is off 90% of the time
08:14:15 <shachaf> good, so you can figure out this haskell thing
08:14:52 <oerjan> also, i've lately been annoyed by people trying to make decisions for me.
08:16:45 <shachaf> anyway this is pertaining to a discussion earlier today
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08:29:06 <lambdabot> oerjan said 10h 36m 10s ago: <mroman> damn I hate this. <-- clearly the only insurance worth having is one that insures you against not having the right insurances.
08:29:50 <myname> that'd be nice, because if it wouldn't pay you out, it has to pay you out
08:30:07 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, are you in a coöperative mood
08:30:15 <shachaf> in the mood for a hug, perhaps
08:30:53 <myname> were there ever #esoteric channel meetings?
08:31:17 <oerjan> i think shachaf has met a few people from here
08:31:38 <shachaf> Let's have a meeting right now.
08:31:49 <shachaf> point of order: too many meetings
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08:32:17 <shachaf> spot of the too many meetings, governor?
08:32:37 <shachaf> the meeting has been adjourned
08:33:21 <Taneb> shachaf, you forgot Any Other Business!
08:33:33 <shachaf> Taneb: Oops. You'd better call another meeting.
08:33:44 <Taneb> I'm not on the committee
08:33:55 <shachaf> which means you're on the mmittee
08:34:02 <shachaf> which is just what you need for a mmitteeng
08:34:37 <shachaf> oerjan: I don't even remember who's from here, but there have been a few.
08:34:56 <shachaf> Sometimes people end up around here.
08:35:00 <shachaf> Probably because the bay area is the best area.
08:35:20 <Taneb> I have not anyone who was in this channel before I met them
08:35:20 <oerjan> i think it might have the greatest concentration?
08:38:35 <shachaf> Taneb: what did you think of my haskell puzzle
08:38:44 <Taneb> Which Haskell puzzle
08:38:55 <shachaf> making loops work in the haskell bf dsl
08:39:04 <shachaf> maybe with overloaded lists or just with a function called loop
08:39:22 <shachaf> > run $ plus minus minus plus plus -- magic
08:43:52 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
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08:44:18 <shachaf> oerjan: also pikhq and i were independently invited to the same event hth
08:44:24 <mroman> haven't done Haskell in a while
08:44:35 <oerjan> shachaf: synchronicity!
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08:45:20 <oerjan> did any of you know what the other looked like
08:45:59 <shachaf> well, there's a picture of me on my stackoverflow page hth
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08:48:26 <oerjan> wait is this bf thing your type question
08:49:54 <oerjan> this weather forecast is too rainy
08:51:01 <oerjan> what was wrong with your L.loop
08:51:09 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘b0 -> BF’ with actual type ‘[t0]’
08:51:09 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘L.loop’, namely ‘[]’
08:51:09 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely ‘L.loop []’
08:51:29 <oerjan> > run $ plus L.loop plus
08:51:30 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘(BF -> BF) -> BF -> c0’ with ‘BF’
08:51:31 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely ‘plus L.loop plus’
08:51:31 <lambdabot> In the expression: run $ plus L.loop plus
08:53:13 <lambdabot> (B c, B b) => (b -> BF) -> BF -> c
08:54:11 <shachaf> apparently the forecast is not only rainy but icy
08:54:53 <oerjan> i cannot understand that without its methods
08:55:15 <shachaf> class B a where { tob :: BF -> a; frb :: a -> BF }
08:55:39 <shachaf> look this solution is suboptimal, that's why i was hoping you'd invent something better
08:56:22 <shachaf> by the way an earlier version sort of worked without run, but you had to annotate it :: String, and it didn't work as well in other ways
08:56:56 <shachaf> also this BF is unnecessary, you can just use String
08:57:19 <shachaf> i was trying to make something work with lists so i didn't want something that overlapped with [a] but that didn't work anyway
08:58:19 <shachaf> you might go with TeX-style "run $ plus (loop plus minus plus) minus" if you can make it work
08:58:30 <shachaf> anyway i was planning to wake up in ~6 hours
08:58:37 <oerjan> oh, i was thinking that might be easier
08:58:59 <oerjan> in fact, why isn't that already working?
08:59:18 <shachaf> > run $ plus (L.loop plus minus plus) minus
08:59:29 <oerjan> :t tob :: BF -> (BF -> BF)
09:00:34 <shachaf> you can probably make something work
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09:01:32 <lambdabot> ‘tob’ (line 164), ‘to’ (imported from Control.Lens)
09:01:38 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘a -> b’ with ‘BF’
09:03:27 <oerjan> :t toB `asTypeOf` \_ _ -> _
09:03:28 <lambdabot> ‘tob’ (line 164), ‘to’ (imported from Control.Lens)
09:03:35 <oerjan> :t tob `asTypeOf` \_ _ -> _
09:03:36 <lambdabot> Where: ‘t1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
09:03:36 <lambdabot> the inferred type of it :: BF -> t -> t1 at Top level
09:03:48 <oerjan> :t tob `asTypeOf` \_ _ -> undefined
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09:07:44 <lambdabot> (B c, B b) => (b -> BF) -> BF -> c
09:08:47 <izabera> ssh whoami.filippo.io <- OHSHIT
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09:20:55 <Taneb> shachaf, I think I have it
09:21:05 <Taneb> I'm not testing it right
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10:20:37 <oerjan> @tell shachaf I sense that all the suggested syntaxes have some trouble with programs like [[]+]
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10:42:49 <mroman> Wasn't there a google search prefix that shows you sites that link to another one?
10:44:12 <mroman> link:wikipedia.org yields NO search results
10:44:55 <mroman> must be broken this feature
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11:01:03 <fizzie> https://support.google.com/websearch/answer/2466433?hl=en claims it still exists, but it looks a bit dubious. "link:youtube.com" finds, like, 7k results.
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11:02:24 <mroman> It does still show some results for some sites
11:02:42 <mroman> however it shows none for some sites that clearly should have links to them
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11:05:07 <mroman> well I said "This article was not helpful." :)
11:07:28 <mroman> J_A_Work: Apartment hunting sucks.
11:10:26 <J_A_Work> mroman: Yes it does, but how did you know I’m looking for an apartment? XD
11:10:35 <mroman> also vertical center div should totally be possible
11:10:41 <mroman> it was possible back in the ugly css days
11:10:48 <mroman> and now you can even do calculations
11:10:57 <mroman> J_A_Work: I'm a stalker.
11:11:21 <mroman> No, I was doing some site analyzes
11:11:30 <mroman> and I stumbled upon your tweet about output.html
11:11:37 <mroman> and then I went on reading your twitter feed
11:12:17 <J_A_Work> I don’t even think I remember that tweet. I grumble a lot about web dev when I’m doing it (which somehow seems to be always)
11:14:48 <mroman> I SHOULD NOT have followed that patent link
11:17:43 <mroman> Why would you want to do that?
11:17:49 <fizzie> mroman: You can do a search for "info:wikipedia.org", and then there's a "find web pages that link to wikipedia.org" link, which uses a search term with some hash -- link:FtttyIEMjRYJ:https://www.wikipedia.org/ for me -- but it also doesn't work any better (no matches).
11:26:29 <mroman> border-radius with dashed border looks weird
11:26:34 <mroman> because around the border it's not dashed
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11:57:07 <b_jonas> fungot: You can do a search for "info:wikipedia.org", and then there's a "find web pages that link to wikipedia.org" link, which uses a search term with some hash -- link:FtttyIEMjRYJ:https://www.wikipedia.org/ for me -- but it also doesn't work any better (no matches).
12:01:05 <mroman> goddamnit fungot stop leaving this channel
12:18:40 <mroman> http://jacquesmattheij.com/the-fastest-blog-in-the-world
12:21:02 <Taneb> mroman, is your blog accessible by gopher
12:22:10 <mroman> it's not even accesible by https I think
12:22:32 <mroman> hoster doesn't support it
12:22:41 <mroman> It's a 1CHF a month hoster
12:23:27 <mroman> presumingly mathjax and googlefonts are the largest part of it
12:24:25 <mroman> if you need css for different screens
12:24:28 <mroman> you're doing something wrong.
12:25:04 <mroman> If you need a mobile version of your site you're doing something wrong
12:26:00 <Taneb> Where is your blog?
12:40:37 <mroman> I like simple, clean designs ;)
12:40:42 <mroman> I don't really like The Burlesque Page
12:40:50 <mroman> but I made it like that so it looks like other fancy crappy sites ;)
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12:41:09 <Taneb> I should start a blog
12:41:25 <Taneb> Should I follow mroman's URL scheme and buy taneb.uk?
12:41:48 <fizzie> Buy taneb.co.uk, for your corporate personality.
12:42:51 <mroman> I've also put disqus behind this click-protection
12:42:54 <fizzie> Can you even get a taneb.uk, or does it have to be taneb.me.uk or some-such?
12:43:01 <Taneb> fizzie, you can get taneb.uk
12:43:03 <mroman> so that no data is transfered to/from disqus for users just visiting the page
12:43:22 <Taneb> I have the almost entirely unused haskellhero.uk, on the suggestion of a friend
12:43:33 <mroman> you own haskellhero.uk?
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12:43:53 <mroman> so you're real name is Nathan
12:44:24 <Taneb> mroman, it's in my whois information on IRC
12:44:31 <Taneb> Real name: Nathan van Doorn
12:44:41 <Taneb> It's on my article on the wiki!
12:44:48 <fizzie> Taneb: You should somehow get the kerning trick in the IRC whois too.
12:45:02 <oren> my username IS my real name
12:45:11 <Taneb> Now, should I buy Taneb.me
12:45:48 <Taneb> I am not... belorussian?
12:46:14 <oren> I have orenwatson.be and I'm canadian
12:46:24 <olsner> Taneb: that reminds me, some movie I saw recently had a villain called van Doom, made me think of you
12:46:32 <Taneb> olsner, Fantastic Four?
12:46:45 <mroman> my real name is partially my username
12:47:00 <olsner> Taneb: hmm, I think so, yes
12:47:15 <mroman> and my user is partially a real person
12:51:41 <fizzie> Huh. Starting from September 5th, 2016, anyone can apply for a .fi domain, even non-Finnish people.
12:52:54 <oren> quick. grab sci.fi!
12:53:29 <fizzie> I used to have a sci.fi address, though; they were my ISP.
12:53:36 <fizzie> I thought about zzie.fi when getting my .fi.
12:54:09 <fizzie> Anyway, it used to be so that you dealt directly with the Finnish Communications Regulatory Authority, and they had age and locality rules, but they're moving to the "we only handle the registry, and you deal with a random shady registrar" model.
12:54:20 <mroman> the ie stands for internet explorer
12:54:25 <mroman> because you explore the internet
12:55:57 <fizzie> I wonder if they're opening up .ax too.
12:56:15 <fizzie> Currently it's been even more strict than .fi, which isn't a surprise.
12:56:42 <fizzie> (It's a TLD for the Åland Islands.)
12:58:21 <Deewiant> fizzie: What happens to old registrations?
12:58:33 <b_jonas> fizzie: is it more strict than .hu used to be before it got opened?
12:58:38 <fizzie> Deewiant: You can't renew after that date except via a registrar ("välittäjä").
12:59:16 <b_jonas> oren: what's the status of your font?
12:59:24 <Deewiant> fizzie: And currently one can only register for a year at a time, I guess?
12:59:55 <mroman> "Saunalahti claims that according to the "law," I have to live here for 3 years to get a 4G subscription, or else pay a 300€ deposit"
13:00:14 <fizzie> Deewiant: Maybe? I don't know if they've changed that; you used to be able to register for up to five, I think.
13:00:27 <Phantom_Hoover> mroman, you might leave the country with all the data if they didn't, after all
13:01:34 <Deewiant> fizzie: Right, it does say 5 years. So one could postpone the registrar-obtaining for that long if one registers on September 4th.
13:02:29 <fizzie> I wonder if you can renew whenever, or only when you're close to expiring. My current expiration date seems to be March 10, 2017.
13:03:19 <fizzie> "Fi-verkkotunnuksen voi uusia aikaisintaan kuusi kuukautta ennen voimassaoloajan päättymistä."
13:04:17 <fizzie> So I can't do it until... September 10th, 2016? That's some good timing right there.
13:13:07 <mroman> Taneb: you could blog about Haskell stuff .
13:13:22 <Taneb> mroman, that was the intention with haskellhero
13:13:28 <Taneb> Just never actually bothered
13:14:07 <oren> maybe I'll eventually put some actual writing on my website (prose, rather than data). right now I can't be bothered
13:14:17 <mroman> That's not very hero-like :(
13:15:48 <oren> b_jonas: I have all the Latin-1 -A -B, and all IPA now
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13:16:07 <oren> the one on my website has 1200 chars roughtly
13:16:16 <oren> I am adding more in the editor
13:16:39 <mroman> so. removed google fonts.
13:16:45 <mroman> Don't want google tracking my visitors
13:16:52 <mroman> now the thing left is mathjax
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13:17:57 <mroman> but I can't host mathjax myself
13:18:05 <mroman> I don't have a lot of webspace
13:19:33 <oren> generate the images once then host them
13:20:19 <mroman> how many browsers support mathml?
13:21:42 <mroman> I might just use MathML
13:22:03 <oren> Firefox apparently has the most complete support
13:23:09 <oren> Ok, time for me to go to work.
13:23:53 <Taneb> mroman, Chrome does not, apparently
13:24:29 <fizzie> I like mathjax, but I just pulled it from their CDN. It's not like my website has users to worry about.
13:25:47 <Taneb> mroman, I've gone off the colour scheme for my esolangs page
13:26:47 <mroman> it's just that if you embed someone's javascript you leak the whole webpage content to them
13:27:43 <Jafet> Google already knows what your webpage looks like, anyway
13:28:08 <mroman> it's no problem unless you're a site that has a protected area
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13:28:25 <mroman> *your site has a protected area
13:28:44 <Jafet> I know a place, a place named fungot
13:28:45 <fungot> Jafet: i was thinking more the shirt depicted in the image file. it cheats.): resemblance of an application of something i wrote for making python-style generators. i needed the case fan was even the wrong size, they color
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13:29:46 <fizzie> Well, you do also leak knowledge of who's visiting your site.
13:29:46 <Jafet> I don't remember mathjax being 30MB, but if it's that large then using the CDN is a good idea (since people will only need to download it once).
13:30:22 <fizzie> Jafet: It's mostly the images.
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13:30:51 <mroman> the latest distribution zip is +30MB
13:31:15 <mroman> fizzie: True @leak who visits
13:31:24 <mroman> that is, if you have not disabled referrers
13:31:35 <fizzie> There's a hash-based URI scheme proposal, but it's not really implemented by anyone, I think.
13:31:38 <fizzie> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc6920
13:31:47 <mroman> although the js could send information back as well
13:31:57 <mroman> basically it's risky to embed third-party javascript
13:33:19 <mroman> Don't some webpages do that to protect against csrf
13:33:26 <mroman> they generate links on the fly with one-time identifiers
13:33:30 <mroman> and then map it internally
13:33:33 <fizzie> Yes, but that's not what that is.
13:36:02 <fizzie> The RFC is pretty vague, but one thing it's been suggested to be used for is references to content that never changes.
13:38:03 <mroman> "never" is such a strong word
13:38:11 <mroman> what content on the internet literally never changes?
13:38:21 <fizzie> Well, I mean, if it's identified by a hash, it can't change.
13:38:45 <fizzie> You can of course change the place linking to it to point at something else.
13:38:54 <fizzie> If everyone referred to, say, JQuery version X as /.well-known/ni/sha-256/[hash], then browsers could in theory avoid retrieving it without having to pull it from some third-party place.
13:39:20 <mroman> browsers could cache it then locally
13:39:42 <fizzie> There was some talk of this on the Chrome mailing lists, but the general response was kind of negative.
13:40:42 <mroman> could you embed cache infos into the url?
13:40:54 <mroman> cache://example.com/documentThatNeverChanges
13:42:00 <mroman> instead of using the cache http means
13:42:48 <mroman> no that'd be stupid :(
13:43:27 <fizzie> There's an alternative proposal for addressing just the "you never know what the CDN will return" case, which would allow for something like <script src="https://some.cdn/whatever.js" integrity="sha256-[hash]"></script> and then the browser would only run it if the hash matches.
13:43:34 <fizzie> https://w3c.github.io/webappsec/specs/subresourceintegrity/
13:43:55 <mroman> that's definitely a nice thing to have
13:44:15 <mroman> same thing for images or the like
13:44:22 <mroman> actually every external resource should have that
13:44:56 <mroman> but this is probably tricky
13:45:04 <mroman> since js usually injects dependencies
13:45:58 <Jafet> Presumably, you would audit that version of the script completely before using it
13:46:41 <mroman> Jafet: still, javascript can load further resources as it pleases
13:46:54 <fizzie> Well, you'd verify that the script has integrity="..." checks on all dependencies it pulls in, of course.
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13:47:49 <mroman> but you wouldn't do that
13:48:19 <fizzie> Or possibly you'd just be pragmatic and say "this is probably all good this time, I just don't want it to change", the way people do with SSH keys.
13:48:31 <fizzie> s/keys/host fingerprints/ whatever.
13:49:38 <Jafet> mroman: yes, you'd audit those too.
13:50:51 <Jafet> I guess you'd need the hashed-URI thing to load those reliably
13:50:58 <mroman> but it'd be a nice feature still.
13:52:22 <mroman> 5.3 Cross-origin data leakage
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13:54:35 <fizzie> Everything always has corner cases like that. :/
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13:55:54 <fizzie> There was the BREACH thing about just compressing with gzip, I think that was pretty nasty.
13:56:02 <fizzie> http://breachattack.com/resources/BREACH%20-%20SSL,%20gone%20in%2030%20seconds.pdf
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14:28:59 <b_jonas> oh great. code has a reformatting change that affects every function, so I can't just diff to see the real changes.
14:29:58 <b_jonas> I have to do a trickier diffing procedure
14:30:12 <b_jonas> oh great, it doesn't actually affect _every_ function
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15:33:04 <zzo38> You can make the kind of URI scheme that you can make integrity:<hashtype>-<hashcode>:<document-url>
15:34:02 <zzo38> Also the user should be allowed to add their own integrity checks as well as override ones specified by the page, but the page should also be allow to specify integrity checks too
15:34:54 <zzo38> (The user can override such as if they don't want additional scripts they add later on to run until the user has approved them, but continue to let the approved scripts to run.)
15:36:11 <zzo38> (If the user specifies integrity checks they can be applied to inline scripts too though)
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17:43:18 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/j < if anyone is interested
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17:52:18 <coppro> izabera: I think you forgot "uses bash as a scripting language" in "bugs"
17:53:05 <izabera> bash is fine if you know what you're doing
17:53:28 <izabera> i mean it has all kind of problems but which language doesnt
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18:08:30 <Phantom_Hoover> izabera, other, better scripting languages generally have fewer problems
18:09:26 <izabera> which problems are you thinking of?
18:09:41 <Taneb> izabera, an extra space can delete your entire file system
18:10:06 <izabera> there are two kind of problems: the "i don't know how to use bash so bash must be the worst language ever"
18:11:04 <coppro> Taneb: what extra space is that? prior to a / in rm -rf foo/*?
18:11:29 <Phantom_Hoover> other, better scripting languages don't make you hate them if you try to write a program in them without being familiar
18:12:24 <coppro> I always feel smarter when something works
18:12:31 <coppro> where I just feel dumber
18:12:36 <Taneb> coppro, yeah, that one, it came up in the steam linux client among others
18:12:45 <shachaf> Taneb: how did your solution to the haskell loop puzzle go
18:12:45 <izabera> from my understanding there's something called ghci
18:12:57 <Phantom_Hoover> http://www.vgmemes.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/son-this-is-bait.png
18:13:07 <Taneb> shachaf, I had a crazy idea involving existential constraints
18:14:19 <coppro> yeah that was ... a fun bug
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19:22:42 <HackEgo> [U+0259 LATIN SMALL LETTER SCHWA]
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21:08:36 <b_jonas> `? weighted companion cube
21:08:37 <HackEgo> weighted companion cube? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:08:42 <HackEgo> companion cube? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:11:10 <HackEgo> weighted companion? ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:24:26 <nortti> `run \? wisdom | rainbow
21:24:27 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ?
21:26:05 <fizzie> Yay for cut-in-the-middle UTF-8.
21:26:48 * puckipedia notes that HackEgo also uses ZWSP protocol
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21:39:47 <b_jonas> you're just not wise enough, HackEgo
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21:55:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Mathboy601 * New user account
21:59:19 <int-e> promising nickname...
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22:05:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfact]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43692&oldid=36748 * Mathboy601 * (+448) /* Just ><++ for brainf*** equivalence? */ new section
22:07:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfact]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43693&oldid=36759 * Mathboy601 * (+0) +++ makes 6, @ jumps to the 6!th character; 6! = 720
22:17:01 <HackEgo> hax0r/hax0r (see ¯\(°_o)/¯)
22:17:51 <shachaf> spot of the boily, governor?
22:18:57 * boily tries to porthello shachaf with that idiom, but to no avail
22:19:35 <boily> shachafellot of the myself? governachaf? spot shachof the still me?
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22:41:20 <oren> www.youtu.be/UgD5ZAKcIIE
22:42:59 <oren> (I copied that out of the filename. are youtu.be links permalinks?)
22:43:44 <boily> I believe you want the wwwless version. this link doesn't resolve.
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23:54:45 <HackEgo> 1/The 1 is just for disambiguation.
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23:58:18 <boily> it's doubly oerjany.
23:58:44 <shachaf> spot of the spot of the oerjan, governor?, governor?
00:00:03 <tswett> In some grand corruption of the hash incrementation on the ESOP headless point to the fuck for extension?
00:00:14 <boily> I know a man who saw a man who saw a spot of the spot of oerjan's governor's governor's bear.
00:00:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43694&oldid=42978 * 123.151.153.35 * (+14) /* Quine */
00:01:05 <tswett> I think I want to use a script of same existing registers dependent on the data to the pointer, and not sentible programming.
00:01:28 <tswett> Although I also have the point in lists that I have a particular rule, and it is faster, but they have to count a thing that things that must be inverted in the picture did people using the colors meaning an expected bits. I think.
00:01:53 <tswett> And of a difference for such a real position that means to do it to the talk of places of concats of the constructor, and compile and system machine...
00:04:05 <tswett> 02:54:26: <lambdabot> Sounds like that time i lambdabot :p
00:06:36 <boily> fungot: stop leaking your sentience onto other bots twh
00:06:37 <fungot> boily: or the cdr of each lst and do the sensible thing: he hasn't got a clock that beeps until you get ' out of memory.
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00:20:07 <fizzie> It just keeps beeping.
00:20:31 <fizzie> I had this foldable alarm clock, one day it just started beeping and would. not. stop.
00:20:45 <fizzie> It didn't have an easily removable battery.
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00:30:41 <oren> exactly WHO is in the middle that I need to worry about a MITM attack from?
00:32:34 <oerjan> mahmoud ahmadinejad hth
00:33:11 <oren> is he in control of a server between me and California?
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00:39:01 <oerjan> ok my type family uc in ghci still works in 7.10.2...
00:46:32 <boily> hellørjan. still coercing innocent types together?
00:48:19 <oerjan> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7102#comment:4
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00:50:53 <shachaf> once you got a taste of fame, you just couldn't stop
00:52:05 <oerjan> hm actually there's no need to have separate uc and fro, after the new instance is defined fro works directly.
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00:58:50 <boily> `` grep -FIi 'evil overlord' wisdom/*
00:58:55 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/oerjan:Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
01:02:40 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, this is ghci-only
01:03:24 <oren> 1371 characters!
01:05:39 <oerjan> at the end, it's really unsafeCoerce
01:06:09 <oren> oh. so it's a haskell pointer cast
01:06:51 <fizzie> Is there a "safeCoerce"?
01:07:09 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Contravariant f) => f a -> f b
01:07:23 <oren> Can you define the specific coercion from ieee double to int64_t
01:07:33 <oren> in a typesafe manner?
01:08:06 <oerjan> :t GHC.Coercible.coerce
01:08:07 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘GHC.Coercible.coerce’
01:08:33 <oren> :t GHC.Coercable.coerce
01:08:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘GHC.Coercable.coerce’
01:08:39 <oren> :t Coercable.coerce
01:08:56 <shachaf> one of you is spamming the channel here
01:08:56 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘GHC’
01:09:15 <oerjan> oren: don't be silly, no one can guess GHC module names hth
01:09:16 <shachaf> not naming any names, but his name starts with o and ends with n
01:09:30 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:10:14 <oerjan> i don't think lambdabot imports that one...
01:10:25 <oren> So the kind Coercible contains types that have known binary representations?
01:10:44 <oerjan> fizzie: the safeCoerce only works for wrapping and unwrapping newtype stuff
01:11:13 <oerjan> oren: *typeclass, nominally
01:11:14 <fizzie> "This class does not have regular instances; instead they are created on-the-fly during type-checking. Trying to manually declare an instance of Coercible is an error."
01:12:33 <oerjan> oren: it's not that general, coerce is a do-nothing cast
01:13:35 <oerjan> as is unsafeCoerce, the difference is coerce only works when the types are safely interchangeable
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01:14:58 <oerjan> which is partly representation, partly a semantic thing
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01:17:26 <oerjan> (e.g. Map key1 v and Map key2 v are not interchangeable even if the key types are, because they might have different sort orders and Map is a binary search tree)
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01:18:50 <oren> well yeah I would not expect complex data structures to work with a pointer cast, only things like that stupid float sqrt trick.
01:19:11 <oerjan> this is ensured by Map having a "role annotation"
01:19:26 <oerjan> oren: um complex data structures work just fine
01:19:38 <oerjan> list types can be converted this way
01:19:55 <oerjan> and float vs. int _cannot_ be
01:20:06 <oerjan> (Double vs. Int, presumably)
01:20:23 <shachaf> haskell has a Float type hth
01:20:36 <oerjan> shachaf: yeah but it is scow
01:20:46 <oerjan> and Maps can be converted on the _result_ type
01:21:08 <shachaf> What Every Computer Scientist Should Know About Floating Point Arithmetic:
01:22:02 <oerjan> > M.fromList [(0,'a'),(0/0,'b'),(1,'c')]
01:22:04 <lambdabot> fromList [(0.0,'a'),(NaN,'b'),(1.0,'c')]
01:22:27 <oerjan> > M.fromList [(0,'a'),(0/0,'b'),(1,'c'),(0/0,'d')]
01:22:28 <lambdabot> fromList [(0.0,'a'),(NaN,'b'),(1.0,'c'),(NaN,'d')]
01:23:32 <oerjan> > M.fromList [(0,'a'),(0/0,'b'),(1,'c'),(0/0,'d'),(-1,'e')]
01:23:33 <lambdabot> <no location info>: can't find file: L.hs
01:23:36 <oerjan> > M.fromList [(0,'a'),(0/0,'b'),(1,'c'),(0/0,'d'),(-1,'e')]
01:23:38 <lambdabot> fromList [(0.0,'a'),(NaN,'b'),(1.0,'c'),(NaN,'d'),(-1.0,'e')]
01:24:07 <shachaf> not sure what you're going for there
01:24:12 <shachaf> perhaps it's nan of my business
01:24:32 <oerjan> basically that NaN breaks as Map key
01:24:39 <oerjan> and ruins the rest of the map
01:25:21 <oerjan> but somehow they all seemed to end up in the order i inserted them
01:25:42 <shachaf> ok i'm giving up on this palindrome thing
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01:26:21 <shachaf> oerjan: did you figure out the loops thing twhib
01:26:23 <oerjan> shachaf: btw i realized the [[]+] problem can be solved by abusing (), in theory
01:26:43 <oerjan> so loop (loop ()) plus
01:26:44 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, i already had an instance B () for that
01:26:48 <oren> is it clear that (n_n) is happy and (u_u) is sad
01:26:59 <shachaf> oerjan: but it's tricky to make it work
01:27:19 <oerjan> shachaf: my idea was, when in doubt CPS
01:27:41 <shachaf> or triple cps, or however many levels
01:28:43 <shachaf> This reminds me of that RPN thing I saw years ago.
01:28:58 <shachaf> Where you could write "x y add z mult" and so on.
01:30:01 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that's not legal dc syntax hth
01:30:11 <oerjan> at least not with the intended meaning
01:31:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i had this idea that only the top function in each subexpression should be a -> type
01:31:35 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/csv
01:31:46 * boily unicodely mapoles oren
01:34:17 <oerjan> i also think i decided () should _not_ be a B type because that'd mess up inference
01:34:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:34:31 <HackEgo> CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
01:35:03 <oerjan> i was too tired to think then, and i'm not sure if i'm awake enough now
01:35:04 <shachaf> laughing at your own joke like that is poor form hth
01:35:25 <oren> I had my land behind my head anime style
01:35:49 <oerjan> land behind my head, MtG style
01:37:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm not sure you've played MtG hth
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01:38:51 <oerjan> true. i had an opportunity once but didn't. i just know it has lands
01:39:37 <oren> 16i[laPlbdP1+ddsbC0>cCO!>d]sc[80sbla1+dsaln>c]sdA0sbC2saCAsnlcx
01:39:59 <shachaf> oerjan: you said "true", but then you made my statement false tdnh
01:40:24 <oerjan> you mean now you're sure i haven't?
01:40:45 <oerjan> don't worry, it was not an eternal, unchanging condition hth
01:43:29 <zzo38> But did you read the rules of MtG game?
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01:44:13 <oerjan> i don't find this kind of game attractive.
01:44:24 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/fnord\ am
01:44:38 <shachaf> oerjan: what kind of game do you find attractive
01:45:00 <oerjan> games where i don't have to plan too much
01:45:03 <zzo38> What I like more than the playing of Magic: the Gathering is the puzzles (Magic: the Puzzling)
01:46:50 <oerjan> i think it's not the kind of puzzle i like, either
01:46:59 <oerjan> it's that old PSPACE vs. NP thing
01:47:07 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. have you ever played Judge Tower?
01:49:18 <zzo38> How can I read Windows help files on Linux (converting to man pages, plain text, or DVI is also fine)
01:51:37 <zzo38> No, the older .HLP format
01:56:21 <oren> aha! I can watch youtube through vlc in lower resolution by adding &fmt=18 to the url
01:56:28 <boily> now that's a format I haven't heard of in a long time.
01:59:43 <oren> Should I make the braille pattern block be oxel graphics?
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02:38:13 <pikhq> How is it that meeting new people is so very tiring?
02:39:46 <oren> All the braille characters are now in my font.
02:40:24 <oren> 1637 characters
02:40:35 <oren> is the new total
02:41:27 <shachaf> maybe you should make `flist and update interested parties using that
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02:54:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: flist: not found
02:54:15 <oren> shachaf: how do I do that?
02:54:45 <oren> `makelist flist
02:55:04 <shachaf> now people can subscribe using `` echo name >> bin/flist
02:56:22 <zzo38> Even the hardest mode ("V-HARD") of Pokemon de Panepon is too easy, also should add "X-HARD" level even more!!!
02:56:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[WARP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43695&oldid=40980 * 210.86.83.200 * (+5) Conform user name to site policy
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03:39:01 <oerjan> `learn Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape.
03:39:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'cube': Cubes come in all sizes, colors and materials, but only one shape.
03:42:34 <oerjan> <boily> shachafellot of the myself? governachaf? spot shachof the still me? <-- shachaf, please stop breaking boily twh
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04:16:33 <zzo38> What is your prediction what can happen next in "level20.tex" story, and how much would you bet on it?
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04:26:01 <Sgeo> I haven't read level20.tex
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04:35:30 <shachaf> zzo38: I predict that the story will get longer.
04:35:53 <pikhq> I predict there may or may not be events.
04:35:58 <shachaf> and i'd probably bet a reasonable amount on it, but not with you as my counterparty hth
04:38:19 <zzo38> I mean to be more specific
04:40:10 <shachaf> zzo38: I predict that Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe will die, and I also predict that Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe will live.
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04:40:38 <shachaf> I'll bet a reasonable amount at the right odds.
04:42:04 <zzo38> What kind of reasonable amount?
04:42:58 <shachaf> Whatever amounts balance the book.
04:44:56 <zzo38> Are you trying to earn comp bonuses by betting on both sides and losing?
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04:47:51 <zzo38> Allows you to get a discount at a hotel if you gamble there a lot.
04:51:50 <Hoolootwo> honestly most hotels where you can also gamble have very low prices afaik
04:53:25 <izabera> yay 5 people starred my micro json parser on github
04:53:40 <izabera> i'm most popular than ever
04:53:59 <izabera> is that correct english? i meant i've never been as popular
04:54:33 <Hoolootwo> I'm not sure if it's proper but I didn
04:54:50 <Hoolootwo> didn't look twice at it when I read it, so it's proper enough to be American English
04:54:50 <zzo38> What is your micro json parser on github?
04:54:58 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/j this
04:55:21 <zzo38> I found PDJSON also in Github, and made it into a SQLite extension as well as fixed a bug that made it fail to support empty arrays.
04:55:50 <zzo38> Your program can be good if you want it in shell-scripts I suppose.
04:56:42 <izabera> https://github.com/skeeto/pdjson '[...] crappy software license (GPL or "do no evil"). [...]'
04:57:20 <zzo38> I am fine with GPL, but mostly I write program as public domain most recently.
04:57:47 <lifthrasiir> I use GPL or PD with a reason, and MIT without a reason.
04:58:01 <zzo38> I prefer public domain mostly though
05:00:54 <zzo38> I put LANG=C in my .profile as otherwise it seems to want to use en_US.UTF-8 or en_CA.UTF-8 but I would rather to set the system's default locale to C
05:07:10 <izabera> that would cause all kind of weird problems with readline
05:07:47 <izabera> you can type multibyte characters, but then you have to press backspace several times to delete them, and the cursor may be misplaced, etc...
05:08:55 <zzo38> No it doesn't because also the terminal is set without multibyte character
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06:03:02 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of cards with abilities like bloodrush or Tymaret's second ability?
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07:02:55 <mroman> zzo38: I like that URI scheme
07:04:55 <Sgeo> I think my language ADD has reached a point where I only look at unreleased languages
07:05:04 <Sgeo> I was fascinated by Rust right up until 1.0
07:08:30 <oerjan> soon you'll only be able to look at unimplemented ones
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07:18:08 <mroman> and then uninvented ones.
07:18:30 <Jafet> Fortunately, we seem to have a good supply of those
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07:23:58 <HackEgo> smlist: shachaf monqy elliott mnoqy
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07:56:09 <b_jonas> oh look, it's finally released!
07:56:35 <b_jonas> Apache Subversion 1.9.0 released: http://svn.haxx.se/dev/archive-2015-08/0026.shtml
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08:16:26 <izabera> https://www.fsf.org/blogs/community/user-liberation-watch-and-share-our-new-video
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09:13:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Smallfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43696&oldid=20026 * 123.113.49.39 * (+40) /* Binary counter */ new section
09:13:33 <izabera> http://www.virtualglitter.com/
09:13:44 <izabera> can i keep on spamming stuff here?
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09:45:23 <mroman> fungot: Hit the floor!
09:45:23 <fungot> mroman: will do. thanks. :) but... it's fnord long
09:47:03 <mroman> Win a free trip with fungot to the land of the Fnords.
09:47:03 <fungot> mroman: now you know, the part after the decimal, by the way), would be to create a scheme job
09:58:25 <mroman> I need to do some testing
10:00:44 <b_jonas> argh windows is such a pain
10:00:58 <b_jonas> why can't we just use unices like I'm used to
10:11:41 <fizzie> Good old 12-bit color, I think there were a number of handheld consoles with that.
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10:13:48 <mroman> I need a test image that is public domain
10:14:25 <fizzie> `thanks list of monochrome and RGB palettes
10:14:27 <HackEgo> Thanks, list of monochrome and RGB palettes. Thist of monochrome and RGB palettes.
10:17:52 <Taneb> mroman, do you need public domain, or do you just need available to use (eg, some creative commons licenses)
10:23:15 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/colordepth.html
10:23:20 <mroman> Found one through wikimedia
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10:28:07 <mroman> For small images you can easily remove 3 bit of color information per color component without suffering quality
10:28:40 <mroman> which reduces the image size roughly 50%
10:30:39 <mroman> You could even write some heuristic that removes information just on r, g or b (or combinations of that)
10:33:37 <mroman> I wish I still had my color correction python script
10:49:43 <mroman> Somebody put up a bounty for a Mario 64 glitch
10:54:39 <fizzie> Quite a few el-cheapo monitors at least used to only have 6 bits of color depth, and do dithering.
10:54:49 <fizzie> Not sure how common that is these days.
10:55:18 <fizzie> [[ Also, most TN panels represent colors using only six bits per RGB color, or 18 bit in total, and are unable to display the 16.7 million color shades (24-bit truecolor) that are available from graphics cards. Instead, these panels display interpolated 24-bit color using a dithering method that combines adjacent pixels to simulate the desired shade. They can also use a form of temporal ...
10:55:24 <fizzie> ... dithering called Frame Rate Control (FRC), which cycles between different shades with each new frame to simulate an intermediate shade. Such 18 bit panels with dithering are sometimes advertised as having "16.2 million colors". ]]
10:55:24 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/konami\ code
10:55:33 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/konami
10:55:52 <boily> oren: ... Y U NICODE?
10:57:24 <HackEgo> The konami code is ㊤㊤㊦㊦㊧㊨㊧㊨Ⓑ Ⓐ [START]
10:58:01 <boily> `` sed -i 's/START/SELECT] [START/' wisdom/konami
10:58:07 <HackEgo> The konami code is ㊤㊤㊦㊦㊧㊨㊧㊨Ⓑ Ⓐ [SELECT] [START]
11:04:22 <oren> I'm going to North bay now. logging out.
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11:05:22 <boily> @tell oren My mapole is waiting for you.
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11:39:53 <HackEgo> nooooooooodl/nooodl is the correct spelling
11:40:02 <HackEgo> impomatic/impomatic never did anything weird enough to get into this database.
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11:50:22 <mroman> (That's right. I just recently watched Taxi Driver for the first time)
11:51:06 <HackEgo> monoidal category/Monoidal categories are just 2-categories with a single object.
11:52:56 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
11:53:31 <mroman> that last sentence is new?
11:54:16 <Taneb> mroman, someone added an invention (either sex or BDSM, I can't quite recall) which I was uncomfortable with the idea of having invented
11:55:03 <Taneb> I stated such and the tanebvention wisdom was edited into the form you see now
11:55:12 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
11:55:44 <Taneb> Password hashes that are worse than the identity function in what sense?
11:56:09 <mroman> hash = password + date_of_birth
11:56:21 <mroman> that'd be worse than hash = password (the identity function)
11:56:27 <mroman> but I can't quite remember what it was.
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12:04:13 <mroman> But in general it is recommended to do a high-pass filter and then a low-pass filter on the password before hashing.
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13:01:18 <fizzie> "... limit 20;" "108 rows in result set"
13:01:31 <fizzie> I guess it's an order-of-magnitude limit.
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13:22:46 <mroman> It's scientific notation
13:27:08 <fizzie> Turns out it was just a confused fizzie.
13:27:25 <fizzie> Well, or arguably confusing output formatting.
13:51:50 <HackEgo> FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
13:53:46 <quintopia> what is the gift finland gives the world?
13:56:41 <quintopia> why would i be sad if finland vanished overnight?
13:56:59 <fizzie> You'd lose the prime source of mämmi in the world.
13:57:23 <Taneb> quintopia, it'd cause pretty nasty tsunamis
13:59:44 <Taneb> Because suddenly there would be a lot of nothing where land used to be
13:59:51 <Taneb> And the sea would try to rush into that space
14:00:13 <Taneb> This could be devestating to much of North, Central, and East Europe
14:00:54 <FreeFull> Taneb: What if just all the people vanished?
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14:01:24 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean legally finland has sovereignty over all the rock underneath it, right?
14:01:32 <quintopia> it doesnt vanish into vacuum. it vanishes as a culture. the landmass exists as a part of sweden
14:01:38 <Taneb> FreeFull, then it'd most likely be colonized by Russia, which would change the geopolitics of the world
14:02:09 <quintopia> i like fizzies answer. mammi looks delicious.
14:02:39 <Phantom_Hoover> "Originally mämmi was eaten during lent. Its laxative properties were associated with purification and purging."
14:03:27 <quintopia> binge eat. mammi purge. binge eat some more. best holiday.
14:03:33 <FreeFull> Taneb: Any person who tries to enter past the borders would disappear too
14:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> at that stage it's become a serious and troubling scientific anomaly
14:04:10 <FreeFull> Any animals, machines, etc are not affected
14:04:41 <Phantom_Hoover> so i think that's probably going to be the primary effect it has?
14:04:53 <Taneb> Does that include people flying through the airspace
14:08:23 <Phantom_Hoover> basically our thought experiment to determine the value of finland is 'if finland was annihilated and replaced with some crazy lacanian scar on the face of the world, would anyone really notice?'
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16:14:42 <HackEgo> olist 996: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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18:22:16 <hppavilion[1]> Not necessarily one for generating parser generators for other langs
18:24:47 <Slereah__> Isn't that basically what Thue is?
18:26:12 <hppavilion[1]> Slereah__: So no, I'm pretty sure Thue isn't an ECC
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18:53:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43697&oldid=43559 * Rdebath * (+125) Lots of cats
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19:10:44 <oerjan> @let type BF = String; newtype X a b = X ((BF -> a) -> b); class B f a where {fromB :: BF -> f a}; instance a ~ b => B (X a) b where {fromB bf = X ($ bf)}; instance (b ~ X (f a) c, B f a) => B ((->) b) c where {fromB bf (X f) = f (fromB . (bf ++))}; class L a where {loop :: a}; instance (B f a1, b ~ f a1, L (X b (a -> b))) => L (a -> b) where loop = fromB "" (loop :: X b (a -> b))
19:10:46 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.loop’, defined at .L.hs:158:9
19:11:10 <ais523> wait, is this an "either" over a set of one element?
19:11:36 <oerjan> @let type BF = String; newtype X a b = X ((BF -> a) -> b); class B f a where {fromB :: BF -> f a}; instance a ~ b => B (X a) b where {fromB bf = X ($ bf)}; instance (b ~ X (f a) c, B f a) => B ((->) b) c where {fromB bf (X f) = f (fromB . (bf ++))}; class L a where {lopp :: a}; instance (B f a1, b ~ f a1, L (X b (a -> b))) => L (a -> b) where lopp = fromB "" (lopp :: X b (a -> b))
19:11:46 <oerjan> @let instance a ~ b => L (X a (() -> b)) where {lopp = X $ \c () -> c "[]"}; instance f b ~ X a c => L (X a (f b -> c)) where {lopp = X $ \c (X f) -> f $ c . ('[':) . (++"]")}; plus = fromB "+"; minus = fromB "-"; run :: X BF BF -> BF; run (X f) = f id
19:12:29 <oerjan> hm this might actually be a 7.10.1 bug
19:12:40 <oerjan> and i've finally upgraded
19:13:02 <oerjan> @let instance a ~ b => L (X a (() -> b)) where {lopp = X $ \c () -> c "[]"}; instance f ~ X a, b ~ c => L (X a (f b -> c)) where {lopp = X $ \c (X f) -> f $ c . ('[':) . (++"]")}; plus = fromB "+"; minus = fromB "-"; run :: X BF BF -> BF; run (X f) = f id
19:13:02 <lambdabot> Parse failed: Illegal instance declaration
19:13:22 <oerjan> @let instance a ~ b => L (X a (() -> b)) where {lopp = X $ \c () -> c "[]"}; instance (f ~ X a, b ~ c) => L (X a (f b -> c)) where {lopp = X $ \c (X f) -> f $ c . ('[':) . (++"]")}; plus = fromB "+"; minus = fromB "-"; run :: X BF BF -> BF; run (X f) = f id
19:13:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 8h 53m 5s ago: I sense that all the suggested syntaxes have some trouble with programs like [[]+]
19:13:51 <oerjan> > run $ loop () loop (plus loop () minus) plus
19:13:52 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(a0 (b0, d1) (c0, d1) -> a0 b0 c0,
19:14:08 <oerjan> this works perfectly well in ghci
19:15:09 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M76052192180943569186544’
19:15:09 <lambdabot> The type variables ‘f0’, ‘a0’ are ambiguous
19:15:23 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘X (BF, d0) (BF, d0)’
19:15:23 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘loop’, namely ‘()’
19:15:51 <shachaf> spot of the not believing you, governor?
19:16:41 <shachaf> > run $ lopp () lopp (plus lopp () minux) plus
19:16:43 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘minus’ (line 169)
19:16:45 <shachaf> > run $ lopp () lopp (plus lopp () minus) plus
19:16:47 <lambdabot> No instance for (B f a) arising from a use of ‘lopp’
19:16:47 <lambdabot> The type variables ‘f’, ‘a’ are ambiguous
19:16:47 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
19:17:05 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M41538240618094895006637’
19:17:05 <lambdabot> The type variables ‘f0’, ‘a10’ are ambiguous
19:17:19 <lambdabot> No instance for (L (X (X BF BF) (f0 a0 -> X BF BF)))
19:17:19 <lambdabot> (maybe you haven't applied enough arguments to a function?)
19:18:19 <lambdabot> forall (k :: BOX) (k1 :: BOX) (f :: k -> *) (a :: k) (f1 :: k1 -> *) (a1 :: k1). (L (X (f1 a1) (f a -> f1 a1)), B f a, B f1 a1) => f1 a1
19:18:31 <shachaf> your version is so much more complicated
19:18:42 <oerjan> wait, did you solve it too
19:19:01 <shachaf> more complicated than the version that didn't support lopps
19:19:29 <shachaf> well, this version doesn't support lopps either as far as i can tell hth
19:19:48 <oerjan> it works in ghci 7.10.2 ;_;
19:21:02 <shachaf> spot of the unportability?
19:21:27 <oerjan> i assume it's one of the bugs that was fixed
19:22:42 <shachaf> This reminds me of https://hackage.haskell.org/package/HoleyMonoid-0.1.1/docs/Data-HoleyMonoid.html
19:22:44 <oerjan> imagine if they'd included the right release notes
19:23:05 <shachaf> Which I'm listed in the authors list of for some reason.
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19:23:59 <shachaf> That's probably because X = HoleyMonoid BF
19:28:11 <oerjan> > run $ plus loop plus
19:28:13 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘a0 (b0, d0) (c0, d0) -> a0 b0 c0’
19:28:13 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely ‘plus loop plus’
19:28:25 <oerjan> > run $ plus lopp plus
19:28:27 <lambdabot> No instance for (B f a) arising from a use of ‘plus’
19:28:27 <lambdabot> The type variables ‘f’, ‘a’ are ambiguous
19:28:27 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
19:29:00 <oerjan> maybe it's about that thing where it doesn't follow instances right
19:31:09 <oerjan> > run $ plus lopp () minus
19:31:21 <oerjan> so the empty case seems to work, hm
19:32:12 <oerjan> ok, that leaves maybe just one instance with problems
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19:34:50 <oerjan> > run $ plus lopp minus
19:34:51 <lambdabot> No instance for (B f a) arising from a use of ‘plus’
19:34:52 <lambdabot> The type variables ‘f’, ‘a’ are ambiguous
19:34:52 <lambdabot> Note: there are several potential instances:
19:42:23 <oerjan> type BF = String; newtype X a b = X ((BF -> a) -> b); class B f (a :: *) where {fromB :: BF -> f a}; instance a ~ b => B (X a) b where {fromB bf = X ($ bf)}; instance (b ~ X (f a) c, B f a) => B ((->) b) c where {fromB bf (X f) = f (fromB . (bf ++))}; class L a where {lopp :: a}; instance (B f a1, b ~ f a1, L (X b (a -> b))) => L (a -> b) where lopp = fromB "" (lopp :: X b (a -> b))
19:42:31 <oerjan> @let type BF = String; newtype X a b = X ((BF -> a) -> b); class B f (a :: *) where {fromB :: BF -> f a}; instance a ~ b => B (X a) b where {fromB bf = X ($ bf)}; instance (b ~ X (f a) c, B f a) => B ((->) b) c where {fromB bf (X f) = f (fromB . (bf ++))}; class L a where {lopp :: a}; instance (B f a1, b ~ f a1, L (X b (a -> b))) => L (a -> b) where lopp = fromB "" (lopp :: X b (a -> b))
19:42:45 <oerjan> @let instance a ~ b => L (X a (() -> b)) where {lopp = X $ \c () -> c "[]"}; instance f b ~ X a c => L (X a (f b -> c)) where {lopp = X $ \c (X f) -> f $ c . ('[':) . (++"]")}; plus = fromB "+"; minus = fromB "-"; run :: X BF BF -> BF; run (X f) = f id
19:43:13 <oerjan> @let instance a ~ b => L (X a (() -> b)) where {lopp = X $ \c () -> c "[]"}; instance (f ~ X a, b ~ c) => L (X a (f b -> c)) where {lopp = X $ \c (X f) -> f $ c . ('[':) . (++"]")}; plus = fromB "+"; minus = fromB "-"; run :: X BF BF -> BF; run (X f) = f id
19:43:45 <oerjan> > run $ loop () loop (plus loop () minus) plus
19:43:46 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(a0 (b0, d1) (c0, d1) -> a0 b0 c0,
19:44:11 <oerjan> > run $ lopp () lopp (plus lopp () minus) plus
19:44:27 <oerjan> it was PolyKinds messing things up
19:44:32 <shachaf> now make it work with OverloadedLists twh
19:45:02 <oerjan> except for one little detail, that context i had to split
19:45:52 <shachaf> oh, and how do you represent the empty program? twh
19:47:47 <oerjan> shachaf: just make run a class method then you can use (), i think
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19:50:02 <oerjan> <ais523> wait, is this an "either" over a set of one element? <-- no it just got cut off, the other is from Control.Arrow, i think
19:50:51 <shachaf> Oh, that's what ais523 meant.
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19:57:31 <shachaf> oerjan: does "shouldn't bother funding his IRA" mean "will die and not be resurrected"?
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20:10:15 <MDream> Also, [16:08] <MDude> What's IRA?
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20:12:02 <Taneb> MDream, somehow I don't think it's the terrorist group
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20:12:50 <MDream> But is it what Pixiv tags that translate to "thanks for your IRA" are reffering to?
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20:15:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Smallfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43698&oldid=43696 * Rdebath * (+267) /* Binary counter */
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20:35:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Brandt * New user account
20:36:06 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't remember the IRA part, but i remember the oracle's worthing as "last breath _ever_".
20:38:42 <oerjan> also, this was supposed to be just a short break because i couldn't sleep once i had the haskell idea ->
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20:40:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43699&oldid=43472 * Brandt * (+282) Add Hodor per example at http://www.hodor-lang.org
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20:58:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Krobb * New user account
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21:06:50 <shachaf> oerjan: i suppose that could mean being a vampire and so on
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21:17:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43700&oldid=43595 * Krobb * (+446) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */ Added an idea for an esolang based on "the penis game" (Bottom of page)
21:18:24 <ais523> do I even want to look at this edit?
21:18:52 <ais523> OK, it's terrible in a different way to the way I expected
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21:36:22 <Sgeo> Every piece of Perl 6 code I've seen so far has been mostly readable, but that could be because only sane people currently care about Perl 6, if it gets popular will it get unreadable?
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21:37:24 <b_jonas> apparently robot heads in Questionable Content can work separate from the robot body, just like in Star Wars, and they can be reattached to the body easily
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21:59:27 <lambdabot> CYYB 062100Z 34006KT 30SM SCT065 BKN200 21/10 A2998 RMK CU3CI3 SLP157 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
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22:28:53 <lambdabot> KATL 062152Z 30010KT 10SM FEW030TCU SCT120 BKN150 OVC200 28/21 A2990 RMK AO2 RAB39E48 SLP114 CB DSNT S-SW TCU VC SW SHRA SE-SW P0000 T02780211
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23:49:51 <oren> ╀╁╂╃╄╅╆╇╈╉╊╋┼┽┾┿
23:57:57 <oren> ⅠⅡⅢⅣⅤⅥⅦⅧⅨⅩⅪⅫⅬⅭⅮⅯ
23:58:05 <oren> ⅐⅑⅒⅓⅔⅕⅖⅗⅘⅙⅚⅛⅜⅝⅞⅟
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02:03:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43701&oldid=43688 * Quintopia * (+817) /* BF Constants Cleanup */
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04:42:44 <Aearnus_> 'COBOL was intended to a be a highly portable, "common" language. However, by 2001, around 300 dialects had been created.'
04:52:52 <Hoolootwo> that's true of many, many languages
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05:53:09 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: i suppose that could mean being a vampire and so on <-- i think we've clearly established vampires aren't the same people as the originals.
05:53:28 <shachaf> oerjan: ok, well, some other kind of undead thing
05:53:36 <shachaf> not sure why vampires were on my mind
05:53:52 <oerjan> maybe a golem like crystal was
05:54:09 <oerjan> although apparently her keeping her personality was unusual.
05:54:25 <shachaf> maybe it wasn't her personality but a clone of it
05:54:36 <shachaf> i,i http://themindi.blogspot.com/2007/02/chapter-23-unfortunate-dualist.html
05:59:13 <oerjan> reminds me of a story about the buddha i read in tezuka's manga
05:59:39 <oerjan> he resurrected a dead girl, but he did it by return an essentially _random_ soul into her body
06:00:24 <oerjan> because souls had no individuality preserved once they left the body
06:03:44 <shachaf> There was the theory in that book that there's just one global soul that zips back and forth between everyone zillions of times a second.
06:04:29 <oerjan> i have thought similar ideas
06:04:57 <oerjan> as in, if continuous identity is an illusion
06:05:15 <oerjan> and we really are a random person each moment
06:05:37 <int-e> mmm. Thief of Time.
06:06:28 <shachaf> oerjan: those books by smullyan talk about all sorts of things along those lines
06:06:29 * oerjan hasn't read that, but is now reminded of michael ende's momo
06:06:44 <int-e> momo is nice, too.
06:06:53 <shachaf> not very well known around here
06:07:15 <shachaf> i read all sorts of german children's books
06:07:57 <shachaf> It's very difficult to get a copy of Jim Knopf in English around here. :-(
06:08:29 <shachaf> There was one printing decades ago or something.
06:08:44 <shachaf> Nowadays the copies that are floating around cost hundreds or thousands of dollars.
06:12:50 <shachaf> Remember _The 35th of May_?
06:13:41 <shachaf> how about _The Flying Classroom_
06:14:20 <shachaf> how about _Emil and the Detectives_
06:17:53 <shachaf> http://www.amazon.com/Locomotive-trip-Complete-Works-button/dp/4000920413
06:18:07 <shachaf> i'm feeling slightly suspicious about this product for some reason
06:25:45 <shachaf> "Englisch Lernen mit Jim Knopf und Lukas dem Lokomotiv-Führer 1 by Michael Ende"
06:44:54 <mroman> how can I tell browser to cache my css
06:51:09 <mroman> Dosen't look like my hoster supports mod_headers or mod_expires
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07:28:45 <oerjan> mroman: see shachaf's line
07:38:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43702&oldid=43687 * Rdebath * (+103) Fix the >255 examples too.
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07:44:17 <mroman> http://www.finanzmonitor.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/vergleich-kosten-franchisen-4k.gif
07:47:41 <mroman> only the 300 and 2.5k Franchise are actually useful
07:48:02 <mroman> the other ones don't really need to even exist
07:58:08 <mroman> also the Go Pro Chest-Harness Angle totally sucks
07:58:16 <mroman> it's like filming the floor
08:06:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43703&oldid=43701 * Rdebath * (+752) /* BF Constants Cleanup */
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08:12:11 <mroman> What moron uses sprintf %s for queries
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08:15:31 <mroman> Poorly secured backdoor user that compromises all security measurements. This user is located in file '/db/valid.users' and has user name '****__DO_NOT_REMOVE_THIS_ENTRY__****'.
08:15:35 <mroman> That's a good username though.
08:16:00 <mroman> password = 'nohalp' #DO NOT CHANGE THIS
08:21:14 <b_jonas> Everyone, the ICFP contest starts in a few hours.
08:29:48 <int-e> no time... traveling
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08:52:42 <oerjan> pressed q by accident in one of tatham's puzzles again
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09:06:07 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/html.html
09:06:10 <mroman> single best page on the web .
09:11:11 <int-e> http://cl-informatik.uibk.ac.at/users/bf3/tmp/bot/b/IMG_1161.JPG
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09:12:55 <int-e> (I think that's prettier)
09:12:59 <Jafet> Sergeant Atham's puzzles.
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09:44:18 <mroman> fungot: Do you know füngöt?
09:44:18 <fungot> mroman: how do you represent an expression and an environment, a compiler will error if you add loops. the c/ c++
09:44:30 <mroman> fungot: That's not a good compiler then.
09:44:30 <fungot> mroman: i can initialize an accumulator at the first
09:44:57 <mroman> `learn füngöt is the french pronunciation of fungot.
09:45:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'füngöt': füngöt is the french pronunciation of fungot.
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09:59:25 <mroman> although this new algorithm can't remove reflections from a single image
09:59:40 <mroman> but requires a serious of images with different angles
09:59:46 <mroman> it's still very impressive though.
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11:02:36 <boily> `le/rn füngöt/Füngöt is the French pronunciation of fungot.
11:02:36 <fungot> boily: quite tired even though slept at least seven hours. ping. but! the soon-to-come new, shiny version will be run on
11:02:51 <boily> fungot: you are füngöt.
11:02:51 <fungot> boily: mine isn't that elegant, i guess.
11:03:49 <boily> mroman: mrelloman. wouldn't «fûngôt» be frenchier than the diæresed version?
11:04:11 <b_jonas> yeah, füngöt is the German pronunciation
11:04:30 <b_jonas> fun-goat is the English pronunciation
11:05:54 <boily> b_jellonas. what about fűngőt?
11:16:59 <mroman> füngöt uses german letters to describe how stereotypical french people would pronounce it ;P
11:17:13 <mroman> well.. how german thinks they would pronounce it
11:17:24 <mroman> no data of an actual french speaker is yet available
11:17:56 <boily> I think I'm a French speaker.
11:19:17 <boily> /fʌn'gʌt/ is pretty close to how I say it.
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11:19:53 <fungot> boily: i know the basics
11:20:09 <fizzie> fungot: Basics of French?
11:20:10 <fungot> fizzie: would be cool. i looked up web 2.0" me, earlier today i used ' globally' loosely ther
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11:28:31 <Skin> Ah yes the zora queen is here
11:28:39 <Skin> from linkbetweenworlds
11:29:15 <fungot> b_jonas: phew. got the prob.
11:29:30 <b_jonas> fungot: yeah, me to, me to, but it will end in a week
11:29:30 <fungot> b_jonas: yeah. just that it turns fnord operators into fnord and then nickname
11:29:59 <Skin> Fungot is replying like a human
11:31:11 <oren> fungot is a sentient robot with one flaw: fungot only responds when mentioned
11:31:11 <fungot> oren: i hope sarahbot has restraint built in on those evals))
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12:08:41 <TieSoul> wow, fungot's replies are oddly relevant
12:08:41 <fungot> TieSoul: the compilation is well-typed? you run two, one after another, like soldiers marching into the sea.... xd
12:09:05 <TieSoul> does it use Markov chains?
12:09:10 <b_jonas> fungot: lemmings. they're lemmings, not soldiers.
12:09:10 <fungot> b_jonas: the same line numbers any more power than simple transfers etc.
12:09:18 <fungot> b_jonas: i like the fact that it's the most i've seen of frtime and flapjax they actually use dataflow to only update things when needed as opposed to
12:09:29 <b_jonas> fungot: that's actually a different layer.
12:09:30 <fungot> b_jonas: i don't really feel like wgetting a video, opening up xine and deleting a file just to see if the c-intercal install works. i don't
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12:14:07 <b_jonas> is it some sort of tetris?
12:19:21 <oren> i'm spending the morning feeding a cute tiny dog bits of chicken
12:20:50 <TieSoul> https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/3b123c4ec05a95dd4b09 I just thought up a simple stack-based language, not sure if it's turing complete
12:21:08 <TieSoul> it's pretty annoying to write in though
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12:22:09 <oren> def not. needs some sort of loop either recursive or jumping
12:22:44 <oren> oh it has a loop
12:23:09 <oren> ok then it probably is
12:24:13 <TieSoul> there's still one instruction I want to add, but I don't know what to have HELP do
12:24:22 <TieSoul> maybe HELP would get a number from input?
12:24:42 <TieSoul> but there's no numeric output so that doesn't make too much sense
12:24:58 <oren> you need another memory other than the stack
12:25:19 <oren> right now this is a PushDownAutomatorn
12:25:54 <oren> (a rotate-stack instruction could also work)
12:27:40 <TieSoul> maybe HELP can rotate the entire stack by 1
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12:54:53 <Jafet> That would indeed give a lot of help.
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12:58:10 <Jafet> Looking at the test programs, you might want to rename I to OH, and WITH to MAN.
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14:26:00 <mroman> Is there a VB.NET Parser in Haskell?
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14:40:40 <mroman> I could do something horrific
14:40:44 <mroman> like compiling Lisp to VBS!
14:40:55 <mroman> Where's your fungod now!
14:46:20 <mroman> Prelude Data.RLON> validateAgainst "main ::= (def #NAME [(args {#NAME})])" "(def main)"
14:46:27 <mroman> crap. My RLON validator has a bug?
14:47:37 <oren> Visual Basic isn't as bad as PHP.
14:48:19 <oren> Visual basic has consistency, even if it's the consistency of vomit
14:49:13 <mroman> *Data.RLON> validateAgainst "main ::= (def #NAME {(args {#NAME})})" "(def main)"
14:49:21 <mroman> this should be True as well o_O
14:51:38 <mroman> https://github.engineering.zhaw.ch/munt/RLON/blob/master/src/Data/RLON.hs#L63
14:51:42 <mroman> looks like that is the issue
14:58:06 <mroman> v:vs probably does not match empty lists
15:04:06 <mroman> matches_t m (RLON_T_Object key ((RLON_T_Optional a):vs)) (RLON_Object key' []) = True should fix that
15:12:21 <mroman> {[$arg]} and [{$arg}] aren't really working
15:13:45 <mroman> [{$arg}] and {[$arg]} are the same thing as {$arg} anyway
15:17:09 <mroman> http://codepad.org/fYyWA8kr <- ok that works now
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15:17:59 <mroman> except 'exp' will also match invalid ifs
15:19:11 <mroman> ok my validation language isn't powerful enough to check lisp programs :(
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15:40:33 <HackEgo> Füngöt is the French pronunciation of fungot.
15:41:17 <oerjan> `` run sed -i 's/French/German/' wisdom/füngöt
15:41:25 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/French/German/' wisdom/füngöt
15:41:46 <oerjan> mroman: please show some linguistic plausibility twh
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15:58:38 * oerjan learns that each ghci line with a declaration is its own module
15:59:00 <oerjan> named GhciN where N is the line number
16:01:29 <shachaf> each line of output is also its own module, named GhcouT
16:02:29 * oerjan pats his swatter. "This is below your dignity."
16:02:49 <shachaf> i did not realize it was possible to stoop so low
16:03:17 <shachaf> swat of the FireFly, governor?
16:04:38 <oerjan> btw here's how to see it: data A = A\nlet x = A\ndata A = A\n:t x
16:05:59 * oerjan was of course testing if there were any other way to confuse ghci about the identity of entities, or their TypeReps. looks pretty safe so far.
16:06:32 <shachaf> oerjan: by the way someone else made a different version of the bf thing
16:06:41 <oerjan> ghci lines and loaded (non-package) modules get thrown into package interactive and main, respectively.
16:08:29 <oerjan> i suppose this is all written somewhere.
16:09:11 <oerjan> shachaf: that doth look simpler
16:10:07 <shachaf> thou dost look simpler hth
16:12:16 <shachaf> it cleaned the code up as surely as i clean windows, and boily doth wisdom.pdf, and thou dost dust
16:12:50 <oerjan> hm that's with the (loop' ...) syntax rather than loop (...)
16:13:31 <oerjan> shachaf: i think that has the [[]+] problem
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16:17:29 <oerjan> what _is_ with people pasting code and leaving out all the pragmas
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16:18:24 <TieSoul> https://gist.github.com/TieSoul/3b123c4ec05a95dd4b09 I have now included the interpreter, made sure to use bad programming conventions while programming it.
16:18:40 <TieSoul> also swapped OH with AM and MAN with WITH
16:19:42 <oerjan> *Main> run $ loop' plus
16:20:04 <oerjan> shachaf: now how do you get []+
16:20:15 <TieSoul> for those unaware this is based on http://www.reddit.com/r/ooer
16:20:46 <oerjan> on the bright side, it should only break at the top level
16:22:11 <TieSoul> now to try again for a hello world program lol
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16:41:23 <oerjan> AAAAA boily's chickens are turning japanese
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16:48:18 <oren> idea: create a C++ object called _ such that you can take a bf program, place _ all over it, and prepend #include "bf.hpp" and it will comile and run
16:49:01 <oren> [+] becomes _[_+_]
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16:52:11 <oren> [-]+++[>++<+] becomes _[_-_]_+++_[_>_++_<_+_]
16:52:49 <oren> (or any other series like that that fits c++ grammar)
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17:07:59 <TieSoul> I don't think _++_ is lega?
17:08:21 <FreeFull> I know there is a C++ template version of brainfuck
17:15:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Iisu * New user account
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19:05:13 <b_jonas> `perl -emy$f=1103515245;my$t=12345;my$s=17;for my$k(0..9){ print+((($s>>16)&((1<<15)-1))),", "; $s=(($s*$f+$t)&((1<<32)-1)); }
19:05:37 <HackEgo> 0, 24107, 16552, 12125, 9427, 13152, 21440, 3383, 6873, 16117,
19:08:14 <ais523> b_jonas: is that the example implementation of rand() in the C standard, but translated to Perl?
19:09:18 <b_jonas> ais523: a random generator, I don't know if it's the one in the C standard or not, but it's the linear congruence random generator used in ICFP 2015, and the seed and output sequence given in the specs so you can verify your implementation of it.
19:09:39 <ais523> b_jonas: I think it's the one in the C standard
19:09:46 <ais523> also, when is ICFP 2015? has it already happened?
19:09:54 <ais523> I'm not in a mood to participate but I'm curious about what the challenge is
19:10:21 <b_jonas> ais523: http://icfpcontest.org/
19:10:31 <ais523> huh, they have their own website now?
19:10:38 <ais523> they used to use random pages on universities' servers
19:10:58 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, it's indeed a well-known random generator sequence, called gsl_rng_rand in libgsl, and let me check if the C++ standard or boost has it too
19:11:04 <ais523> hmm, started 8 hours ago
19:11:38 <b_jonas> ais523: they have had that domain name for a few years now, which is sad, because it means last year's website isn't accessible now, and for three years they haven't bothered to link to the websites of previous years' contests
19:12:08 <b_jonas> I have links for the 2013 and 2012 contests, and to a list of the previous ones, though some of the older ones' websites are not accessible anymore
19:12:12 <b_jonas> I don't have them archived though
19:12:31 <b_jonas> http://icfpc2013.cloudapp.net/ , http://icfpcontest2012.wordpress.com/ , http://icfpcontest2012.wordpress.com/previous-contests/
19:13:11 <b_jonas> ais523: also, on freenode, at least #icfp-contest and #haskell-blah has some discussion about the contest
19:17:39 <b_jonas> nope, C++ standard doesn't have that particular random generator predefined, and in fact, std::linear_congruential_engine can't even be parametrized in a way that it gives exactly that
19:21:34 <b_jonas> I think the C++ standard and boost doesn't have an implementation for this particular rng, only gsl does, but of course you can implement it in like one short line (shorter than what I gave above, that one has way too many parenthesis and operations)
19:22:38 <ais523> this sounds like a golf contest
19:22:44 <ais523> although some joker would probably win it just by using rand()
19:23:34 <b_jonas> anyway, ICFP 2004 has used a similar linear congruence generator in the specs, but not exactly this one
19:25:26 <b_jonas> they use one that might be using a multiplier origianl to them
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19:30:03 <b_jonas> `perl -emy$f=22695477;my$t=1;my$s=12345;for my$k(0..39){ 3<$k and print $s>>16&(1<<14)-1,", "; $s= $s*$f+$t&(1<<32)-1; } # ICFP 2004 random generator
19:30:08 <HackEgo> 7193, 2932, 10386, 5575, 100, 15976, 430, 9740, 9449, 1636, 11030, 9848, 13965, 16051, 14483, 6708, 5184, 15931, 7014, 461, 11371, 5856, 2136, 9139, 1684, 15900, 10236, 13297, 1364, 6876, 15687, 14127, 11387, 13469, 11860, 15589,
19:30:43 <b_jonas> and no, not original to them, it's the generator used in the borland C compiler library
19:31:34 <b_jonas> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_congruential_generator#Parameters_in_common_use which lists both of these
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19:40:58 <J_A_Work> are there any esolangs in clojure or rust besides brainfuck implementations yet?
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19:53:50 <Aearnus_> J_A_Work: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Deadfish#Rust
19:55:06 <ais523> deadfish doesn't really count
19:55:43 <myname> make an implementation of eodermdrome
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20:00:22 <Taneb> Make in implementation of Eodermdrome in Rust's macro system
20:14:03 <J_A_Work> i thought about doing some kind of really irritating stack based language
20:15:05 <Taneb> Or FALSE, or Underload...
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20:35:12 <shachaf> Taneb: flying to new york today
20:35:21 <shachaf> Taneb: can i expect to find any haskell compilers
20:35:30 <Taneb> shachaf, you've misunderstood the name
20:35:40 <Taneb> It's the New (York Haskell Compiler)
20:36:14 <shachaf> Oh, I thought it was a compiler that compiled New (York Haskell)
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20:42:53 <Taneb> That is a common misunderstanding
20:43:32 <b_jonas> wait what? wasn't it compiled in Glasgow?
20:43:38 <fizzie> I thought it compiled "New Haskell", and the York was an infix operator.
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20:48:13 <J_A_Work> Aearnus_: that was so gonna be my joke but then i got distracted.
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21:01:19 <b_jonas> ais523: it turns out a regular haskeller you might have seen in #haskell is an organizer of ICFP 2015, just like how dcoutts was last year.
21:01:27 <b_jonas> ais523: we just didn't know that because he was sleeping or something
21:01:35 <ais523> b_jonas: I hardly ever visit #haskell
21:01:47 <ais523> believe it or not, being in #esoteric doesn't automatically make you a Haskell fanatic :-)
21:02:01 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not a fanatic either. but I know you visit multiple channels, so you may have seen him.
21:02:07 <ais523> given that I use OCaml for my day job, I may be contractually obliged to frame-war you now?
21:02:10 <b_jonas> And if you haven't, other people here may have.
21:02:28 <b_jonas> ais523: what? I don't have to be a fanatic of haskell to join the channel
21:02:39 <b_jonas> shachaf: join #icfp-contest and find out
21:02:56 <shachaf> I'm not going to be able to participate in the contest.
21:03:11 <b_jonas> shachaf: you don't have to participate the contest to join a channel
21:03:11 <shachaf> I'll be flying to New York when it starts.
21:03:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's already started
21:04:13 <b_jonas> and I'm going to be on vacation in Sweden when it ends, flying during the contest
21:05:03 <shachaf> b_jonas: Joining the channel hasn't answered my question.
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21:05:31 <Taneb> shachaf, it was ME! (it was not me)
21:05:49 <b_jonas> shachaf: the four nicks starting with galois_ (plus galois_yav who is quit now) are organizers
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21:08:12 <shachaf> b_jonas: Oh, one of the galois_ folks is an impostor.
21:08:13 <Taneb> Maybe next year I will not accidentally be doing other things during ICFP contest
21:08:21 <shachaf> Not non-Galois, but non-organizer.
21:08:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, though it's hard to tell
21:08:27 <shachaf> https://twitter.com/ICFPContest2015/status/629719239381811201
21:08:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: I asked, and another organizer confirmed him as an organizer in irc
21:08:54 <b_jonas> they should put that to their homepage
21:12:40 <b_jonas> Oh! The ICFP contest homepage now says “The unpredictability of the eldritch forces involved makes it impossible for us to provide precise information on time and memory resource availability during the time of final judgement. However, we can guarantee that sufficient resources will be available to accommodate the overhead of any earthly programming language or runtime system.”
21:12:46 <b_jonas> that sounds like a challenge for esolangers
21:13:06 <shachaf> i feel like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_Diplomacy#Backstabbr doesn't quite live up to the usual wikipedia standards
21:13:08 <b_jonas> do you guys have an implemented earthly esolang runtime system with LOTS of resource requirement?
21:13:30 <shachaf> "purely a product of passion"?
21:13:39 <ais523> shachaf: you can always remove it and see if anyone puts it back
21:14:05 <shachaf> I think it's reasonable for the entry to exist, but it's phrased in a very biased way.
21:14:13 <shachaf> I'm not good at Wikipedia phrasing, though.
21:14:19 <b_jonas> I mean, not the kind that needs a second to just start up, because the bytecode loader that loads the library is so big, nor like Java which requires tons of memory because it doesn't share anything between processes; but something that REALLY requires lots of resources.
21:14:21 <shachaf> But I guess I should clarify that I wasn't asking anyone else to fix it.
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05:49:37 <zzo38> There is Gweled game package, but I prefer the Gameboy Advance game "gemini" (look on pdroms and elsewhere; the ROM image is freely available) under mednafen
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07:13:04 <zzo38> I am on, do you have any questions or complaints please?
07:14:24 <Aearnus_> would / be reciprocal or something?
07:17:24 <Sgeo> Can I complain about Perl6's questionable decision to have truthy/falsey non-Bool items in 'when' and other implicitly smartmatched places to be likely to do the wrong thing?
07:19:36 <Aearnus_> perl6 as a whole is a questionable decision
07:19:52 <Sgeo> Aearnus_, how so?
07:20:56 <Aearnus_> perl5 is a good enough language itself
07:21:12 <Aearnus_> it's like the transition from python2 -> python3 but without the incentive of moving to python3
07:21:40 <Sgeo> I can't stand looking at Perl5 but Perl6 fascinates me
07:21:55 <Aearnus_> it's definitely nice as a standalone langauge
07:22:02 <Aearnus_> but it's no successor to perl5
07:22:10 <zgrep> No. It's a completely different language.
07:22:19 <zgrep> Well, "completely".
07:36:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ZOWIE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43704&oldid=34572 * Rdebath * (+856) /* Turing completeness */ new section
07:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants/Crunchfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43705&oldid=33103 * Rdebath * (+14307) Finalise.
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10:37:34 <boily> @tell oerjan ヘロリュアン
10:48:06 <boily> I may not be exactly at maximum mental abilities. it will get worse during the day.
10:48:18 <boily> no alcohol is involved, only a convention.
10:48:39 <boily> http://www.otakuthon.com/2015/home/
10:49:30 <b_jonas> oh, there's an anime convention too?
10:49:41 <b_jonas> I guess it's summer and convention session
10:50:18 <b_jonas> in here the Sziget fesztivál is about to start, just when I leave for vacation
10:50:45 <b_jonas> so I think I'll leave lots of people arriving on the airport when I'm leaving
10:50:50 <b_jonas> there might be lots of chaos
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11:03:39 <zzo38> This year I did not go to anime convention but maybe next year I might
11:04:29 <b_jonas> there's also apparently a My Little Pony convention going on right now in US-MD
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11:42:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you going to ICFP?
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11:46:32 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/maur
11:48:05 <boily> oh. missing two letters. nothing wrong here.
11:49:35 <zzo38> shachaf: I haven't registered; is that necessary?
11:57:31 <shachaf> zzo38: Yes, and there's a fee.
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12:19:49 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*idris*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
12:20:13 <Melvar> (Whoops, got confused about the commands.)
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12:28:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[InDec]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43706&oldid=38237 * Rdebath * (-29) Language is not Turing complete as there is no way to add memory (eg: tape, stack, linked lists or arrays)
12:32:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ZeptoBasic]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43707&oldid=35145 * Rdebath * (+29) Add TC category
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12:46:40 <b_jonas> Oh, an important question,
12:46:57 <b_jonas> can you point me to a good description of how to make and work with partial clones in git?
12:47:29 <b_jonas> It's supposed to be possible, but the git high-level interfaces are crazy, and I have trouble with even simpler commands than this.
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14:03:33 <Jafet> Please, fungot, sing to me a song
14:03:34 <fungot> Jafet: that is, if the jump is not the problem :p
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14:05:02 <Jafet> The char-rnn code seems to be quite delicate. One training pass can increase the validation error from 2 to 50.
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16:50:46 <oerjan> steal a technique from Shachaf and Edward Kmett and adapt it to the current
16:50:48 <oerjan> (rather clean) setting.
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17:08:37 <oerjan> wtf is github running a ridiculously heavy script when i'm trying to browse sources
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18:25:04 <shachaf> oerjan: help what are you stealing
18:28:54 <oerjan> shachaf: the #. operator hth
18:29:15 <oerjan> technically, ghc stole it
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18:30:30 <oerjan> https://downloads.haskell.org/~ghc/7.10.2/docs/html/libraries/base-4.8.1.0/src/Data-Foldable.html#line-447
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18:57:28 <oerjan> edwardk: btw is there some reason why ghc can't have rank n constraints?
18:59:12 <oerjan> oh found an SO question i hadn't seen about it
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19:02:37 <oerjan> (which you've answered, naturally)
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19:26:58 <oerjan> infixl 1 \\ -- required comment
19:27:09 <oerjan> is that only required because the module uses CPP?
19:27:29 <oerjan> and so the final \ might be confused with line continuation
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19:28:37 <oerjan> http://hackage.haskell.org/package/constraints-0.4.1.3/docs/src/Data-Constraint.html#%5C%5C
19:32:06 <oerjan> CPP definitely triggers an error without it...
19:36:34 <edwardk> oerjan that is exactly why it is required =)
19:54:41 <oerjan> edwardk: why in the world did they make it so you can deduce () has the kind Constraint without doing the same for (,) ...
19:55:27 <Taneb> oerjan, because (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint! Not Constraint! :P
19:56:30 <oerjan> there's an obvious answer, but it's not a good one.
19:56:53 <oerjan> (there are no constraint arguments in (), so they couldn't use the same hack)
20:00:37 <Taneb> Yay now I have two websites I am not using
20:05:40 <Sgeo> I wonder what lens-like stuff can be replicated in Perl6 and what can't
20:06:26 <Sgeo> Perl 6 has Proxies which when bound to a variable can change the meaning of assignment to and reading from that variable. Currently it seems to be FETCH/STORE, so I don't think a Setter can be made
20:07:16 <Sgeo> Perl 6 method call syntax does not rely on the invocant actually knowing about the called method, e.g. $foo.&say will call the say function that is in scope on $foo
20:07:36 <Sgeo> (WHereas $foo.say would look up say in terms of what $foo can do, or something)
20:09:39 <shachaf> oerjan: sigh, i wish that person would stop interacting with me
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20:47:48 <oerjan> @tell edwardk instance {-# OVERLAPPING #-} (f (Eq()) (Eq()) ~ (Eq(),Eq())) => Test f --
20:48:27 <oerjan> he narrowly avoided a hth there
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20:49:58 <oerjan> that's the best way i've thought of to define an instance for it
20:50:18 <oerjan> i think it might even work, sort of
20:51:24 <oerjan> (well it worked in a trivial test)
20:52:33 <oerjan> @tell edwardk oops, * {-# OVERLAPPABLE #-}
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22:21:48 <edwardk> oerjan: i mentioned the superkind tricks for fixing (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint right?
22:22:33 <edwardk> sadly given that it interacts weirdly with things like eisenberg's efforts to get us dependent types i don't see it happening
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22:31:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43708 * Iisu * (+2922) Language overview
22:34:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43709&oldid=43708 * Iisu * (-52)
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23:24:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43710&oldid=43709 * Iisu * (+9)
23:25:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43711&oldid=43710 * Iisu * (-9) Fixed logical error in the description of respect.
23:26:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43712&oldid=43711 * Iisu * (+9)
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05:14:51 <zzo38> How do I make a backslash in a .IP command in a man page?
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05:58:04 <zzo38> I tried that and it does not work; I get a blank space
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06:25:11 <Deewiant> https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/3gakuy/if_the_answer_is_church_integer_42_which_lambda/
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07:21:13 <oerjan> @tell edwardk <edwardk> oerjan: i mentioned the superkind tricks for fixing (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint right? <-- yes. but even with the current system, it should be possible to at least export a type synonym for it.
07:21:56 <edwardk> class (p,q) => p & q; instance (p,q) => p & q
07:22:09 <edwardk> now you can work with (&) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint
07:22:14 <edwardk> it can be partially applied, etc.
07:22:22 <oerjan> i mean one that you can actually make instances for (,) with, of course
07:24:30 <oerjan> (oh and that evil code i @told you earlier was a trick for making an instance that applies to just (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint)
07:25:09 <oerjan> you can't make the head right, but you can restrict it with the context
07:26:03 <oerjan> also, you can define a type that evaluates to exactly (,), but alas through a type family.
07:26:55 <oerjan> type family Hack (c :: Constraint) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint
07:27:08 <oerjan> type instance (f a b) = f
07:27:24 <oerjan> * type instance Hack (f a b) = f
07:27:36 <oerjan> type C = Hack (Eq Int, Eq Int)
07:28:27 <oerjan> hm Hack ((),()) also works.
07:29:53 <oerjan> unfortunately, ghc makes no attempt to allow instances for type families, even fully applied.
07:40:30 <oerjan> <edwardk> sadly given that it interacts weirdly with things like eisenberg's efforts to get us dependent types i don't see it happening <-- the problem would be that it would make his * a compound kind expression? (i am thinking of conor mc bride's formulation that used two kind parameters to combine all of *, Constraint and #)
07:43:53 <oerjan> oh wait it was you, why did i think it was mcbride
07:44:47 <oerjan> i think my brain made a faulty ermine/epigram connection.
07:45:19 <edwardk> i think mostly because it complicates the story for kinds/sorts a great deal once you have * in *
07:45:43 <edwardk> since it'd be something like Sort T T in Sort T T -- or something like that
07:48:44 <oerjan> and because of DataKinds, there's nothing other than * that can be the end of the road like that
07:50:56 <oerjan> edwardk: i just had an evil idea. could you make Sort a type family?
07:51:24 <edwardk> sadly no, because you need the inference to flow back to the arguments
07:51:31 <edwardk> 'injective type family' perhaps
07:51:50 <edwardk> you need f a ~ f b to imply a ~ b
07:53:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43713&oldid=43211 * Rdebath * (+11) /* Current Languages to go back to. */
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08:34:29 <hppavilion[1]> I'm putting it in the retroactive category of "Esoteric Computer Science"
08:36:24 <hppavilion[1]> I may have to write a computer program to generate parts of the article for me :P
08:36:38 <hppavilion[1]> Because the augmented operators include things like <<>
08:37:08 <hppavilion[1]> (Assign rhs to rhs to all values less than rhs << lhs)
08:39:53 <hppavilion[1]> oerjan (referencing you because you appear to be the only one paying attention)?
08:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to call it an "Esoteric Abstract Concept in Esoteric Programming" unless there's a better term
08:42:53 <hppavilion[1]> And I'm going to make a subpage containing an autogenerated table of EVERY SINGLE operator
08:43:35 <oerjan> let's not go completely overboard with pages
08:44:27 <hppavilion[1]> Sure, it wouldn't add much educational value because you can probably guess its contents :P
08:45:49 <hppavilion[1]> I don't think it'd be humanly possible to create a page for all of them with educational content
08:48:47 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: you can't easily create a page for each operator, because if you try to put the spelling of the operator in the title, you often get an invalid title for mediawiki
08:49:36 <hppavilion[1]> Which is why I'm just going to create one subpage with an auto-generated table
08:50:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to make a program to generate a list of string tuples containing operators and an autogenerated description
08:50:24 <hppavilion[1]> Then run a program with a for loop to convert that to a table
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08:59:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Iag]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43714&oldid=31799 * Rdebath * (+34) /* External resources */
09:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Non-Specific Assignment]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43715 * Hppavilion1 * (+1701) Created Page
09:01:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Non-Specific Assignment]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43716&oldid=43715 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) Added colons
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10:23:37 <oerjan> <Deewiant> https://www.reddit.com/r/esolangs/comments/3gakuy/if_the_answer_is_church_integer_42_which_lambda/ <-- that prose is harder to understand than unlambda itself...
10:24:55 <Slereah> Isn't there a list of short Church integers somewhere anyway
10:26:21 <Slereah> I remember making one for combinators
10:33:13 <oerjan> it's not very active, but occasionally.
10:40:04 <Slereah> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/19940612/Church%206.txt
10:40:15 <Slereah> Pretty hard to condense them when they are not powers of 2
10:40:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: m`m``sbi: not found
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10:48:07 <oerjan> (\6 f x.(\6.6(6 f)(6 f x)))(\f x.f(f(f(f(f(f x))))))
10:50:08 <Slereah> I should tidy up the page on Lazy Bird
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14:20:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43717&oldid=14360 * Rdebath * (+708) Hello World!
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17:15:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Nest]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43718&oldid=40221 * 75.36.136.61 * (-1) /* Orthostructs */
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18:04:17 <oerjan> if i weren't so lazy, i should make the worst lens package ever and call it pestilens
18:06:03 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see lens issue 552
18:06:38 <oerjan> i don't have lens issues on my daily web schedule, so probably not
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18:07:21 <shachaf> you missed out on a class-E scow hth
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18:10:59 <oerjan> shachaf: wait how does your scow class system work
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18:21:41 <shachaf> classification of finite simple scows
18:29:52 <oerjan> shachaf: i have so far deduced the classes Dumb, E, Fnord, Zalgo and HTH
18:30:13 <oerjan> i hope this clears things up
18:30:55 <oerjan> those are in order from lousy to worst hth
18:34:00 <Jafet> Within minutes, gentleman scholar and help expert oerjan correctly identified the class of hth scows, the scow of scows.
18:48:48 <pikhq> That's a scow scow.
18:53:58 <Taneb> scow is an anagram of cows
18:54:11 <HackEgo> 400) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 988) <olsner> metar lead to canada, more metar and cows \ 994) <Bike> man at least job applications in biosciences are just like "you are willing to put your arms through a cow" <kmc> Bike: please send us a link to your CowHub profile o
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20:05:08 <oerjan> edwardk: hi i managed to write unsafeCoerce with Data.Constraint.Forallin in Safe mode hth
20:05:25 <oerjan> wth did my terminal just do
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20:07:11 <oerjan> http://lpaste.net/138354
20:09:19 <oerjan> basically i derived a contradiction from Forall's assumption that there are only two types in the universe...
20:12:24 <oerjan> come to think of it i didn't need ConstraintKinds enabled, i just assumed it from the outset.
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23:00:01 <shachaf> oerjan: now i'm confused hth
23:21:57 <shachaf> oerjan: about scow classes, i mean
23:22:43 <shachaf> but edwardk doesn't see messages in this channel unless you mention his name or lens or a few other things
23:23:26 <shachaf> The Forall thing looks interesting, will look when I'm back at a computer.
23:25:24 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/constraints/issues/10
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00:09:43 <zzo38> Can other programs that use Motif widgets and so on be changed to use Athena widgets?
00:10:02 <pikhq> I don't see why not, though perhaps not *easily*.
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01:42:02 <oren_> Oren Watson is back in Town!
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01:52:00 <tswett> Is the category of scow finitely cocomplete?
01:52:44 <tswett> I had an idea the other day. The (philosophical) "category of occurrents", where an "occurrent" is something with examples or instances.
01:53:09 <tswett> Redness is an occurrent; there are examples and instances of redness.
01:53:56 <tswett> Oh, and then a morphism is any "natural" way of mapping instances of one occurrent to instances of another occurrent.
01:54:10 <tswett> "Natural" isn't explicitly defined.
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03:59:27 <zzo38> What should be a first sentence of a "level20.tex" story? Currently I have an "Introduction" chapter that starts with: After his disease of coughing has been cured, he suddenly disappeared and this resulted in a lot of events occuring (the ``butterfly effect''), as described in this text. But I am not sure if it should be better to delete everything before "It is now morning."
04:01:07 <zzo38> The first sentence cited has nothing to do with the story anyways; I was just trying to make the beginning a bit more strangely...?
04:01:45 <zzo38> Also the introduction is an actual chapter and I am not sure if it should be.
04:04:44 <zzo38> I am sure it is possible to do better with a lot of these thing, some of these paragraph could be fixed a bit to improved. One sentence already has been at someone else's suggestion
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04:16:40 <shachaf> zzo38: Why is it called level20.tex?
04:17:37 <zzo38> Because it is from a Dungeons&Dragons game where we started as level 20 (and also with no possessions) and is typeset with TeX.
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04:18:39 <zzo38> So it is just the filename I gave it.
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13:03:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43719&oldid=40030 * 83.251.36.35 * (+2) It -> It's
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13:25:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Stalem * New user account
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13:53:04 <mroman> there oughta be a lower bound
13:53:08 <mroman> a machine that can't solve anything
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13:53:43 <mroman> What's the name for a machine that can't solve anything?
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14:02:23 <GoToTell> Machine that's can't solve anything? "My Brain."
14:18:53 <mroman> the human mind as a machine would be inherentely flawed
14:19:47 <mroman> unless you can recreate mental illnesses in neuronal networks as well given some stimuli.
14:20:03 <GoToTell> So would be the machine located at your lower bound.
14:20:15 <mroman> the machine that can't do anything would be the lower bound
14:22:31 <GoToTell> I think it's impossible for a machine to metaphysically do nothing.
14:30:26 <mroman> Let's say there's a decision problem D
14:30:50 <mroman> and a machine D that either answers yes,no,can't solve
14:31:04 <mroman> the useless machine will always answer with can't solve ;D
14:33:28 <coppro> just evaluate everything to _|_
14:42:21 <mroman> then there are the Las Vegas Machines
14:42:36 <mroman> they either report yes,no or fail
14:43:20 <GoToTell> Feed it it's own schematics and ask how it a machine built like that would respond if giving 'this' problem.
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15:32:44 <myname> at http://www.madore.org/~david/programs/unlambda/ there is a passage that doesn't make sense to me
15:33:12 <myname> "^x^y`$x$y (i.e. i) and ^y^x`$y$x (i.e. ``s`k`sik)."
15:33:50 <myname> i guess it was meant to be ^x^y`$y$x
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16:28:40 <HackEgo> olist 997: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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17:02:25 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you read olist?
17:04:52 <tswett> ````s`k`sikxy = ` ```s `k`si k x y = ` `` `k`si x `k x y = `` ``k `si x `kxy = `` `si `kxy = ```s i `kx y = `` i y ` `kx y = ` `i y ``k x y = ` y x = `yx
17:04:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ```s`k`sikxy: not found
17:05:18 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
17:05:59 <tswett> myname: so yeah, it should be ^x^y`$y$x
17:06:24 <tswett> @type ap (const (ap it)) const
17:06:25 <lambdabot> ‘id’ (imported from Data.Function),
17:06:29 <tswett> @type ap (const (ap id)) const
17:08:40 <tswett> I should have just done that.
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17:52:09 <oerjan> edwardk: shachaf: i realized the "at most 2 elements in the universe" idea could be replaced by something much simpler http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/Forall/UC2.hs
17:52:34 <shachaf> oerjan: Did you see the bug edwardk linked to?
17:52:40 <oerjan> also, i definitely should start browsing githubs, i didn't know there were issues pointing out already
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17:52:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i did, so the module is broken in at least two different ways
17:53:35 <oerjan> but both amount to how even unexported data types leak too much information to be used as skolems
17:55:28 <oerjan> ah he's added another issue
17:55:50 <edwardk> ok, this is basically dead since the introduction of closed type families
17:56:16 <oerjan> edwardk: i _think_ the 2 for 3 version could be made without having them closed
17:56:23 <edwardk> the code was written before they existed
17:56:57 <edwardk> well i always stated it ruled out the only obvious attack, now the problem is the less obvious attacks are mounting ;)
17:57:28 <edwardk> i can still make a version that does reflectiony tricks, but that would preclude you being able to infer Forall Foo
17:57:55 <edwardk> the thing that kills it dead is Typeble though
17:58:37 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/constraints/issues/10
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17:59:04 <edwardk> that version requires almost nothing to execute the attack
18:00:00 <oerjan> only open family: http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/Forall/UC3.hs
18:00:45 <Xavo> !ztest test_123 (>)*9([-]>)*99
18:00:57 <oerjan> edwardk: i don't think Typeable kills a reflectiony version, the Typeable instance generator can only give known types
18:01:10 <edwardk> oerjan: look closely at what is being generated there
18:01:24 <edwardk> its using the Typeable A and TYpeable B that get autogenerated
18:01:48 <edwardk> and then its able to cast because they'll agree on being 'A'
18:02:07 <oerjan> ...i assumed you wouldn't use A and B in a reflectiony version, but a made-up-of-thin-air type like reflection does?
18:02:09 <edwardk> because we just cast the dictionary
18:02:22 <edwardk> i just mean the current version
18:02:29 <edwardk> this is a pretty effective attack on the current version
18:02:37 <edwardk> it gives you unsafeCoerce in about 5 lines of code
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18:03:19 <edwardk> so i think this basically rules out all skolem based approaches
18:05:15 <oerjan> i was thinking whether it would be possible to use an impredicative type like forall a. C a => a
18:05:26 <oerjan> with an unexported class C
18:05:54 <oerjan> but i should assume that won't work well, like anything impredicative
18:06:30 <shachaf> oerjan: Why isn't this conversation in #-lens, anyway?
18:06:41 <oerjan> no lenses involved hth
18:09:43 <edwardk> unexported classes are Typeable too
18:10:26 <oerjan> um sure, but i don't see the relevance...
18:11:11 <oerjan> the class is just to try and make sure the user cannot cast it to a known type
18:11:32 <oerjan> it was just an idea, anyway
18:11:58 <oerjan> i meant to replace A and B by such a type (or several if that helps...)
18:12:45 <edwardk> any idea how to make that work?
18:13:23 <oerjan> well i haven't actually tried it...
18:14:06 <oerjan> i don't have any Forall-using programs to test, anyway. well except the exploit.
18:19:57 <oerjan> huh apparently that fails with no suggestion of repair when it gets to the Forall definition
18:21:01 <oerjan> edwardk: i guess even with ImpredicativeTypes, you're not allowed to apply a type variable to an impredicative type. alas.
18:24:19 <edwardk> https://github.com/ekmett/constraints/commit/522e9da30410898895f7d13194ea8ac50910a01c
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18:42:43 <olsner> I've heard that scow is oerjanspeak for something
18:43:50 <shachaf> `addquote <olsner> I've heard that scow is oerjanspeak for something
18:43:53 <HackEgo> 1252) <olsner> I've heard that scow is oerjanspeak for something
18:44:59 <olsner> hogwash, is that scow?
18:45:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i'll sue you for libel by proxy hth
18:46:53 <oerjan> but first i'll have to sue microsoft and asus for nagging me about the same thing twice
18:47:26 <olsner> did they nag together twice, once each, or in total four times?
18:47:56 <olsner> that's a lot of nagging
18:48:11 <oerjan> or well, microsoft seems to want me to enable its spyware^Wsmartscreen
18:48:29 <oerjan> and asus refuses to remember my touchpad settings.
18:48:54 <oerjan> come to think of it, it used to forget them before, until i gently kicked it
18:51:33 <oerjan> oh well, it seems to have settled down. while waking up from suspend is faster, actual reboot is annoyingly slow.
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19:00:34 <hppavilion[1]> When upgrading to WX, I actually did custom settings and disabled all tracking
19:00:59 <hppavilion[1]> And I've told my mom she isn't allowed to install windows 10 on her own, because I'm going to disable them for her, too
19:01:13 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, her computer won't install updates for some reason
19:01:31 <shachaf> ais523: I know you're not on `olist, but did you see the new olist?
19:01:45 <shachaf> Oh, you only read them in bursts.
19:05:15 <ais523> shachaf: OK, that's quite the plot twist
19:06:18 <ais523> oh, hmm, the page online for my thesis has finally been created, but apparently it's restricted distribution until 1 December for some reason
19:06:25 <ais523> I assume that's the date on which I "officially" get the PhD
19:12:54 <oerjan> i'm afraid that's the wrong way hth
19:13:13 <shachaf> ais523: I was going to ask about that.
19:13:19 <shachaf> ais523: Restricted to whom?
19:13:31 <ais523> shachaf: the staff hosting the site, apparently
19:13:35 <shachaf> Can I read it if I'm mentioned in it?
19:13:37 <ais523> at least /I/ don't have access and it's my thesis :-(
19:21:49 <shachaf> Maybe Elsevier will sell you a copy.
19:22:14 <fizzie> My former department's bibtex-based webified publication list infrastructure had this concept of "internal pdf".
19:22:44 <fizzie> Adding an "internal pdf" to a publication put a link that would 403 to the publication entry on the web page.
19:22:57 <ais523> shachaf: anyway, it will be free public access once the 1 December deadline's passed, unless someting really incompetent happens
19:23:02 <fizzie> Also when accessed from my "internal" workstation.
19:23:12 <ais523> fizzie: heh, the "link" to it on the web page in my case is actually just some underlined text
19:23:15 <ais523> it doesn't do anything when you click on it
19:23:19 <fizzie> You could access them via the NFS share, but I'm not sure what the link was for.
19:23:33 <fizzie> Maybe it used to be an IP-based restriction and someone renumbered the networks or something.
19:24:16 <fizzie> I wonder what our library does, I know they make the dissertations available, but I don't know at what point in the process.
19:25:55 <fizzie> Huh, they have a new system.
19:26:08 <fizzie> https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/ v. fancy.
19:26:41 <fizzie> I don't think the non-thesis categories are very comprehensive.
19:26:58 <shachaf> they should have a branch in paalo aalto
19:27:36 <fizzie> shachaf: They organized a cruise ship conference thing, and called it "Aalto on Waves".
19:27:47 <fizzie> http://www.aaltoonwaves.com/
19:28:20 <fizzie> Although I think it's named after Alvar Aalto.
19:28:38 <shachaf> whoa, i can read all of fizzie's secrets
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19:29:11 <shachaf> Oh, these are people who cited fizzie, and people who were advised by fizzie.
19:29:20 <fizzie> Yes, apparently my master's thesis isn't in there.
19:29:37 <fizzie> I graduated just before Helsinki University of Technology became Aalto University, I guess this new thing only has Aalto-stuff.
19:30:05 <shachaf> What does it take to get some fizzie advice?
19:30:53 <fizzie> Hah, and the old thesis database isn't available externally.
19:31:10 <fizzie> "A user licence is required to the databases Tkkbooks, Tkkserials, Tali and Inssi from other than Aalto University users."
19:31:25 <fizzie> The text "A user license" is a link to a 404 page.
19:34:13 <fizzie> Searching by my surname, there was a bachelor's thesis on lighting; tried to download it: "You do not have the credentials to access the restricted bitstream".
19:37:34 <fizzie> As far as I can determine, my master's thesis is not freely electronically available. :/
19:37:40 <fizzie> Oh well. It wasn't very good anyway.
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19:54:07 <fizzie> I hope you noticed oerjan's hth comment.
19:54:40 <shachaf> fizzie: I'm afraid that doesn't disambiguate very much.
19:55:08 <fizzie> The one about reduction to BF being the wrong way around.
19:55:53 <hppavilion[1]> Because you can write a program in this language that is essentially Trivial Brainfuck Substitution
19:55:56 <fizzie> If you go by the usual meanings of the word. If you implemented BF in your language, that's reducing BF to your thing, and that's the right way around.
19:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> But if you were so inclined, you could use the tree as a tape
19:56:20 <fizzie> In that case, it's probably right.
19:56:51 <fizzie> Reduction of A to B conventionally means a way to solve A using a known solution of B.
19:57:44 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, my language has a way to move from node to node, a way to increment or decrement the current node while 1, and a way to loop a block of code while nonzero
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19:59:02 <fizzie> That sounds a lot like http://esolangs.org/wiki/Treehugger
19:59:11 <fizzie> Although maybe your tree isn't binary.
20:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> It's basically exactly treehugger, but more legible
20:01:27 <shachaf> strictly speaking it's a weirdlang
20:01:34 <hppavilion[1]> It's an esolang the same way Postscript is an esolang
20:01:36 <fizzie> In the same family, there's also the more elaborate https://esolangs.org/wiki/Arborealis
20:01:51 <shachaf> (the joke is that weirdlang isn't the technical term)
20:02:33 <hppavilion[1]> It's inspired by arborealis to the degree of just being called Arbour-Lang currently
20:02:59 <fizzie> If I type "esolangs.org foo" in my browser, it does a search using http://fail.esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&search=foo
20:03:05 <fizzie> Because fail.esolangs.org fails.
20:03:18 <fizzie> Wonder where that has come from.
20:04:12 <fizzie> Really strange. I have an "esolangs.org" search using fail.esolangs.org, and a "fail.esolangs.org" search using esolangs.org.
20:04:36 <fizzie> And also two other "Esolang (en)" search engines from various temporary things, but that's more reasonable.
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20:07:25 <hppavilion[1]> fizzie: One might even call your searching quirks... esoteric
20:14:35 <fizzie> It sounds like just dequeue-enqueue.
20:14:58 <tswett> Hmm. Here's an esolang.
20:15:14 <fizzie> "Practical" queue types tend to have an "is empty" test, and maybe a peek operation for the front.
20:15:20 <tswett> Of nonnegative integers.
20:15:49 <tswett> You pop a number; call it n. Then you peek the next n numbers and reenqueue them.
20:17:00 <tswett> So "3 3 2 2 1 1" would become "3 2 2 1 1 3 2 2", then "2 2 1 1 3 2 2 2 2", then "2 1 1 3 2 2 2 2 2 1", then "1 1 3 2 2 2 2 2 1 1 1", and so forth.
20:17:23 <tswett> Sounds Turing-complete.
20:17:42 <hppavilion[1]> Somehow, I just noticed the name collison between dequeue the operation and dequeue the double-ended queue
20:17:45 <ais523> tswett: reminds me of resplicate
20:17:49 <ais523> although it's not quite the same
20:17:59 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: The double-ended queue is generally just a "deque".
20:18:08 <fizzie> Pronounced 'deck', I think.
20:18:09 <ais523> it also reminds me of xigxag, though, which is suspected to not be TC
20:18:21 <fizzie> (Because like a deck of cards, you can access both ends.)
20:19:44 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided to obey the made up philosophy of RSRJ (Right Shell for the Right Job)
20:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm going to invent a host of alternative shells that all have special purposes
20:20:31 <hppavilion[1]> Not to replace the Bourne-Again SHell, but as alternatives for specific tasks
20:20:48 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: there's git shell, already
20:21:28 <ais523> if you want an object-oriented shell, look at Powershell
20:22:10 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to integrate them into this cool interface called the UtopiaUI
20:22:25 <fizzie> Sometimes I wonder if there are actual scsh users anywhere. I've never heard of anyone.
20:22:52 <hppavilion[1]> Its basic form will be a command prompy mixed with a file explorer
20:23:14 <hppavilion[1]> And the file explorer you're using switches to the "dir" directory
20:23:22 <hppavilion[1]> So you don't need to type "ls" to see all the files
20:23:30 <hppavilion[1]> And you can see what you're doing much more awesomely
20:24:13 <hppavilion[1]> Or, if you double click (or single click, depending on your OS's settings) on the "dir" directory
20:24:27 <fizzie> That sounds somewhat like NC and its ilk.
20:24:55 <hppavilion[1]> And the shell is DIRECTLY connected in-window to that file system
20:25:08 <tswett> I love graphical software that has a command line.
20:25:14 <tswett> I mean, I don't think I've ever used such software.
20:25:22 <tswett> But in my imagination, I love it.
20:25:52 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norton_Commander#/media/File:Norton_Commander_5.51.png -- IIRC, the prompt at the bottom and the file manager filling the rest of the screen are quite synchronized.
20:25:58 <fizzie> (It's not graphical, of course.)
20:26:55 <fizzie> tswett: MATLAB is kind of a graphical software with a command line.
20:26:58 <fizzie> If you squint, at least.
20:27:26 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: UUI sounds a lot like an IDE.
20:27:27 <hppavilion[1]> Sans a full-fledged IDE, such that the user can use their own preferred one
20:28:09 <hppavilion[1]> You use the UUI when you want to browse files without an eyestrain
20:28:51 <hppavilion[1]> I'm sure I'll find a place for it in the world of programming :P
20:30:02 <tswett> Are you going to create your own file browser, or integrate this with an existing one?
20:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> I have a personal project perpetually going to create a software suite called UtopiaOffice
20:31:49 <hppavilion[1]> Strangely, the company I'm developing it under (and likely the one to distribute it if all goes according to my ~evil~ plan) is actually a GAMING company
20:33:26 <hppavilion[1]> It's designed to be usable for programmers and mathematicians as well as mere mortals
20:34:01 <hppavilion[1]> So, for example, it has a calculator called Godel that will, if I can figure it out, do calculus.
20:34:42 <hppavilion[1]> But to answer your question, it will /probably/ use a custom-made filebrowser
20:35:13 <hppavilion[1]> And be designed to look pretty so it doesn't strain your eyes
20:40:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing that OO shell... but my tendency towards Esolangs is directing me to make BF scripting possible in it
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22:08:57 <boily> you're on the East Coast?
22:09:15 <shachaf> looj this "shello" thing doesn't make any sense
22:09:25 <shachaf> that h isn't an independent sound
22:09:33 <shachaf> you can't make "hello" out of it
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22:20:20 <shachaf> Mr. Shellophane / Shoulda been my name
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00:46:35 <oren> I just spent 20 minutes searching for the one letter in my font that I accidentally made 1 pixel too high
00:47:08 <oren> Now my font is once again 16x9 pixels
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01:25:10 <oren> hello danofthedeep
01:25:42 <HackEgo> onëliner/onëliners are pairs of unfathomable vectors in the category of exponential distance.
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01:44:29 <HackEgo> tmyk/tmyk the more overfilled your brain gets.
01:44:39 <HackEgo> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
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02:29:26 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcZUPDMXzJ8
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02:59:08 <hppavilion[1]_> I think I left myself logged into IRC at work and it didn't log me off
03:00:45 <ais523> hppavilion[1]_: do you have your nick registered?
03:00:59 <ais523> one of the main reasons to register your nick is to log off other remote copies of yourself,
03:01:22 <ais523> hppavilion[1]_: /msg nickserv ghost hppavilion[1] password
03:01:28 <ais523> you don't need the password if you're logged in right now
03:01:40 <ais523> (ideally send that in a different tab so that we don't see your password if you typo the / at the start)
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03:02:09 <hppavilion[1]_> ais523: Yes, I figured out that I should do that when identifying a while ago
03:02:29 <ais523> now that nickserv's disconnected your ghost
03:02:37 <ais523> you can just /nick to take over the name you want
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03:14:20 <\oren\> WTF?!!? So they sold Google to a brand new company called alphabet run by the same people?
03:16:03 <ais523> ofc, if you own a company, you can sell it, and you can also sell it to yourself
03:16:16 <ais523> so there's nothing legally that weird about it
03:18:04 <ais523> the theory I've seen is that they want to narrow what the word "google" refers to
03:18:19 <ais523> although whether it's going to be search or advertising (or both but nothing else) is rather up in the air
03:18:32 <ais523> IMO it'd be a terrible move for them to actually rename the search engine, but maybe they will?
03:21:03 <ais523> it's hard to see how they would
03:21:17 <ais523> although anecdotal evidence is that the general public don't really understand the distinction between a browser and a search engine
03:21:28 <ais523> (and URL bars that pipe to a search engine are not helping)
03:21:42 <coppro> I thought it was their blog post, but apparently not
03:22:02 <coppro> ais523: anecdotal evidence suggests there are people who don't understand the distinction between a browser and the internet
03:29:20 <Aearnus_> it seems like they're also trying to bring attention to their other subsidaries
03:30:01 <Aearnus_> like http://www.calicolabs.com/
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03:33:24 <MDream> There are people who don't know Facebook coutns as "using the itnernet".
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03:33:59 <MDude> But yeah, they specifically said Alphabet's just meant to act as a holding company.
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03:34:45 <MDude> It won't make anything itself, it's more to solve the problem of them buying up companies that work on their own and then dealing with people wondering why it's not integrated with search.
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03:35:17 <coppro> when did google neuter their calculator features :(
03:44:01 <ais523> possibly related to wolfram|alpha?
03:44:12 <\oren\> use dc command for calculator!
03:44:33 <coppro> I used to use it for dimensional calculations
03:44:39 <coppro> now w|a will be my goto I guess
03:45:13 <\oren\> idea: programming language with units on every amount
03:46:00 <\oren\> x = 10m; y = x / 2s; print y; >>> 5m/s
03:48:16 <\oren\> km/h = 3.6m/s; y = 5m/s; print (km/h)y; >>> 1.388888
03:49:29 <\oren\> hmm... you could do something quite like this with C++11 custom literals
03:49:56 <\oren\> unfortunately, c++ is scow
03:51:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: scow: not found
03:51:24 <coppro> \oren\: not ony can you do that with C++ custom literals
04:07:43 <izabera> https://github.com/ainfosec/crema/ why is this not turing complete?
04:09:23 <coppro> izabera: my guess is recursion isn't allowed
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04:10:06 <izabera> there's no mention of such restriction
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04:10:53 <coppro> but if you disallow (mutual) recursion, it's sub-TC
04:11:02 <coppro> if you don't, pretty sure it is TC
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05:29:19 <\oren\> ⅒ seems to be missing from a lot of fonts for some reason
05:29:48 <\oren\> it's even missing from GNU unifont
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05:30:46 <coppro> \oren\: the ascii letter?
05:32:39 <HackEgo> [U+2152 VULGAR FRACTION ONE TENTH]
05:33:14 <\oren\> it is supposed to be like -
05:36:42 <\oren\> ͰͱͲͳ are also missing from GNU unifont for unknowable reasons
05:39:56 <\oren\> Is this the result of newer unicode standards adding those characters?
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06:17:25 <\oren\> Well i've figured out how to configure unicode font fallback
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06:49:38 <coppro> does using the list monad make me terrible?
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06:52:25 <ais523> coppro: depends on how you use it
06:52:29 <ais523> if you use it for its intended purpose, no
06:56:14 <Sgeo> So in Perl and many other languages, there's a truthy/falsey dimension, but now Perl 6 has a defined/undefined dimension
06:56:59 <ais523> Perl 5 has a defined/undefined dimension too
06:56:59 <Sgeo> And a `with` statement which is like `if` except for definedness
06:57:37 <Sgeo> ais523, how many undefined values are there in Perl 5? Perl 6 types and Failures are considered undefined
06:58:06 <Sgeo> http://design.perl6.org/S04.html#The_with_and_without_statements
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06:58:53 <ais523> Sgeo: ah right, I can only think of one, arguably two depending on how you look at it
06:58:58 <ais523> read-only undef and read-write undef
06:59:10 <ais523> only read-only undef is more of a container than a value
06:59:31 <coppro> and a computation a -> m b
06:59:55 <Sgeo> Perl 6 doesn't have undef, but lets you use the type to represent an undefined value of that type. I'm not convinced that that's much better than Java null, but for some reason they are
07:00:18 <coppro> is there an easy combinator which will give me mzero if the maybe is Nothing and the result of the computation otherwise?
07:02:38 <coppro> ah mfromMaybe is close enough
07:22:58 <oerjan> coppro: asum . traverse f
07:24:24 <coppro> oerjan: figured it out
07:24:40 <oerjan> mfromMaybe isn't standard, is it
07:25:05 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Foldable t) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m ()
07:25:13 <oerjan> it doesn't give results
07:25:48 <coppro> in this case I don't care about results, but yes
07:26:21 <coppro> some sort of fold would do if I did
07:28:05 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Foldable t) => (b -> a -> m b) -> b -> t a -> m ()
07:28:23 <oerjan> ais523: anything with _ at the end will generally discard results
07:28:27 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Traversable t) => (a -> m b) -> t a -> m (t b)
07:28:48 <ais523> oerjan: ah right, I was confusing it with the fold1 and the like
07:32:08 <ais523> come to think of it, how do you generally disregard results in Haskell
07:32:09 <Sgeo> I think it's interesting to contrast with Ruby and some similar languages, where both nil and false are falsey... if something returns a lack of value, and if something returns an actual false, are indistinguishable by merely a truthy check
07:32:28 <ais523> the obvious \x -> () doesn't work because then x isn't evaluated
07:32:32 <ais523> can you lift it somehow?
07:32:48 <ais523> Sgeo: well Perl 5 has separate defined and truthy checks, although undef is falsey
07:33:03 <Sgeo> \a -> a; return ()
07:33:14 <oerjan> :t \f -> asum . fmap f
07:33:15 <lambdabot> ‘F.asum’ (imported from Data.Foldable),
07:33:25 <oerjan> :t \f -> F.asum . fmap f
07:33:26 <lambdabot> (Functor t, Foldable t, Alternative f) => (a1 -> f a) -> t a1 -> f a
07:34:09 <oerjan> int-e: i'm not sure Data.Foldable needs to be imported qualified any longer
07:34:33 <oerjan> @tell int-e for lambdabot, i'm not sure Data.Foldable needs to be imported qualified any longer
07:34:52 <oerjan> everything that name clashed has been unified
07:36:43 <ais523> now I'm wondering if that has a simple definition
07:37:04 <oerjan> that's for inside Monads and the like
07:37:10 <lambdabot> Source not found. You type like i drive.
07:37:24 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
07:38:03 <oerjan> ais523: nowadays it'd be void x = () <* a
07:38:09 <lambdabot> Applicative f => f a -> f b -> f a
07:38:52 <oerjan> which also is a way of discarding a result, replacing it by whatever
07:41:08 <oerjan> ais523: also, there's seq
07:41:23 <oerjan> it discards, but evaluates first
07:41:59 <myname> seq and performUnsafeIO are one hell of a combo
07:42:28 <ais523> how many layers does a get unpacked?
07:42:39 <ais523> I think it's just checked for not-infinite-loop-ness?
07:42:45 <ais523> or does it also unpack the outermost constructor?
07:43:04 <oerjan> it evaluates enough to know that it _has_ an outermost constructor.
07:43:27 <oerjan> "weak head normal form" is the technical term
07:43:43 <oerjan> and for functions, until you get a lambda
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07:44:01 <ais523> I take it this needs compiler magic in order to work, then?
07:44:36 <oerjan> well that's the semantic definition. ghc of course tries to optimize.
07:45:05 <ais523> I mean, not just optimizatoin
07:45:08 <ais523> but to even be able to define it
07:45:10 <oerjan> ais523: "evaluating a thunk to head normal form" is like one of ghc's primitive operations.
07:45:46 <oerjan> or as they call it, "entering a thunk"
07:46:27 <oerjan> and it's the basic operation performed first by ghc core language's case expression
07:47:29 <oerjan> except that somehow, function types cannot be entered, but can still be seq'ed, i'm not exactly sure how that works.
07:49:12 <oerjan> there's some difference in how ghc handles function types and ADT types, that means unsafeCoercing one to the other can crash things, even if you don't actually _use_ the result as an ADT value
07:49:52 <oerjan> ADT types are the ones with genuine constructors
07:50:52 <oerjan> i suppose this is precisely the difference between types where evaluating has to "unwrap a constructor", which then crashes for values which don't have any.
07:52:24 <oerjan> ais523: because normally, _without_ seq, you never evaluate an ADT value except because you want to test / unwrap its constructor, or a function except to apply it.
07:52:51 <ais523> oerjan: right, which is why I thought extra magic would be needed for seq
07:53:03 <oerjan> hm maybe you are right
07:53:15 <ais523> i.e. seq isn't something I'd expect you to be able to implement in standard Haskell, except in terms of itself
07:53:30 <ais523> (or other functions of a similar nature)
07:53:37 <oerjan> also, it has to be general, because you can call seq on a polymorphic value that isn't known to be ADT or function
07:55:18 <oerjan> ais523: yeah. for any specific ADT type, you can implement it by matching on an arbitrary construction, but there's no way to do it for functions.
07:55:56 <ais523> hmm, "case x when _ -> ()" sort-of feels like a one-level unwrap
07:56:09 <ais523> but I suspect it doesn't wrap at all, and doesn't even marginally evaluate x as a result
07:56:25 <oerjan> it does if that's the core language
07:56:42 <oerjan> but not if it's haskell (and you mean of, not when)
07:57:21 <oerjan> > case undefined of _ -> "hi"
07:57:45 <ais523> oerjan: sorry, working in OCaml in the day job, I find Haskell syntax easy to forget
07:57:59 <oerjan> _ is an "irrefutable pattern", which means it evaluates nothing
07:59:02 <oerjan> variables are also irrefutable, as is unwrapping a _newtype_ constructor (which are entirely at the type-level)
07:59:35 <oerjan> > case undefined of Identity x -> "hi"
08:00:09 <oerjan> > case undefined of Just x -> "hi"
08:00:31 <oerjan> @let data A x = A x; newtype B x = B x
08:00:41 <oerjan> > case undefined of A x -> "hi"
08:00:45 <oerjan> > case undefined of B x -> "hi"
08:01:13 <oerjan> @let data C x = C !x -- data with strict constructor
08:01:18 <oerjan> > case undefined of C x -> "hi"
08:02:02 <oerjan> ais523: this behavior for pattern matching is the _only_ semantic difference between a newtype and a datatype with a single constructor with a single strict field
08:02:50 <oerjan> i think possibly GHC even implements them identically internally by default nowadays
08:03:00 <oerjan> (not quite sure about that)
08:03:17 <ais523> and the only reason those are similar is the existence of strict fields
08:03:33 <ais523> otherwise you could have a thunk with a known constructor but lazy internals that bottomed out
08:04:12 <oerjan> > case A undefined of A x -> "hi"
08:04:23 <oerjan> > case B undefined of B x -> "hi"
08:04:32 <oerjan> > case C undefined of C x -> "hi"
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08:05:07 <oerjan> and this shows the case where C is the odd one out
08:07:32 <oerjan> hm is there an example where B is the odd one out
08:10:07 <oerjan> > case A undefined of !x -> "hi"
08:10:13 <oerjan> > case B undefined of !x -> "hi"
08:10:18 <oerjan> > case C undefined of !x -> "hi"
08:11:25 <ais523> oh hmm, how does that strictness on the case work?
08:11:43 <ais523> note that I'm tired enough that I have to look at your comments twice to see whether they're in italic
08:11:48 <oerjan> basically that's equivalent to A undefined `seq` "hi"
08:12:25 <ais523> ah, forces a one-level unwrap
08:15:09 <oerjan> with the caveat that a newtype constructor doesn't count as a level
08:15:36 <ais523> right, it's just a label really
08:15:43 <oerjan> and that unwrapping a data constructor also unwraps its strict fields
08:15:52 <ais523> can a newtype have more than one constructor? IIRC it can't?
08:16:12 <ais523> in which case I'd expect a newtype to be implemented identically to whatever it's wrapping
08:16:23 <oerjan> yep, that's precisely the use case
08:16:39 <oerjan> to avoid runtime overhead but still have a distinct type
08:18:24 <oerjan> and making conversion have no overhead the other way is why the special treatment in patterns
08:20:19 <oerjan> but even with that, there are still cases where conversion is not without overhead, so ghc recently introduced a Coercible class to handle more
08:20:35 <oerjan> (people were previously using unsafeCoerce)
08:20:59 <oerjan> > coerce [Identity (3 :: Int)] :: [Int]
08:21:00 <lambdabot> No instance for (Contravariant []) arising from a use of ‘coerce’
08:21:00 <lambdabot> In the expression: coerce [Identity (3 :: Int)] :: [Int]
08:21:13 <oerjan> of course lambdabot imports a completely different coerce
08:21:30 <oerjan> from one of edwardk's packages, i bet
08:22:07 <ais523> hmm, OCaml has the (:>) operator that seems to match that particular coerce
08:22:13 <ais523> that lambdabot just found
08:22:40 <oerjan> anyway, the thing is that [Identity Int] _is_ identically represented to [Int] but without coerce you still need to go through map
08:23:37 <oerjan> (Identity is like the silliest newtype ever, it wraps anything in the trivial Monad)
08:24:04 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Contravariant f) => f a -> f b
08:24:22 <oerjan> i'd be a bit surprised if Ocaml has that :P
08:24:47 <oerjan> oh :> is for object subtyping, isn't it?
08:25:34 <oerjan> which i guess involves variance too
08:26:44 <oerjan> that btw is edwardk's supergeneral way of expressing that f is a functor that ignores its wrapped type, i.e. essentially Const a b = Const a
08:28:01 <oerjan> somehow haskell has ended up with two competing types like that, although there seems to be a movement to get rid of Constant
08:28:14 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Constant’
08:28:14 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘Constraint’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
08:28:44 <oerjan> :k Control.Functor.Constant.Constant
08:28:46 <lambdabot> type constructor or class ‘Control.Functor.Constant.Constant’
08:28:53 <oerjan> :k Control.Functor.Trans.Constant.Constant
08:28:54 <lambdabot> type constructor or class ‘Control.Functor.Trans.Constant.Constant’
08:29:44 * oerjan learns that there exists a Control.Monad.Trans.Conts module
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08:30:24 <oerjan> hm ghci was surprisingly helpful with suggesting module names
08:30:32 <oerjan> :k Data.Functor.Constant.Constant
08:32:15 <oerjan> i wish it would suggest language options that way too
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08:35:36 <oerjan> hmph turns out it _does_ if you use ghci from the terminal instead of winghci. *sigh*.
08:36:29 <oerjan> or well, then it has proper tab completion.
08:37:15 <Taneb> One of my friends is resitting an exam this morning and I am a little worried
08:39:52 <Taneb> I am mostly worried because I helped him revise for it
08:41:05 <Taneb> So if he doesn't do well enough it's sort of on me
08:41:08 <Taneb> Is that selfish of me?
08:42:06 <ais523> well, it's not altruistic, but being selfish sort-of implies it's at the cost of someone else
08:42:27 <ais523> whereas your friend doing well in the exam doesn't hurt anyone, and indeed is a benefit to the world in general
08:42:32 <ais523> so I don't think it fits the definition of being selfish either
08:42:38 <ais523> it's one of those instances where everyone's interest aligns
08:44:59 <Taneb> I think next academic year we're both gonna have to stay a bit more on top of things
08:46:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Chinese]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43720&oldid=38656 * Rdebath * (+70) /* ASCII only */
08:50:42 * oerjan suspects that guy in GG to actually have _planned_ that agatha would mess up the other guy's plans
08:51:09 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm not sure, if that were the case why'd he offer to bathe her and take her to his chambers?
08:51:47 <oerjan> i wouldn't be entirely surprised if he's working for the real Master
08:52:15 <oerjan> or even, perhaps, _is_ the real master working through a clank body
08:53:41 <Taneb> Hmm, rereading the last few, you might be righ
08:56:07 <oerjan> or perhaps this is a test of her, and they're _both_ in on it.
08:56:18 <int-e> yay for semi-public wlan...
08:56:29 <Taneb> oerjan, that'd be more surprising
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08:58:03 <oerjan> Taneb: if you were the master and a very powerful spark of unknown character entered your domain, wouldn't _you_ want to give them a few tests before meeting them openly?
08:58:24 <Taneb> I probably would do it more subtly than kidnapping her
08:58:38 <fizzie> ais523: The theory I've seen (the official one) claims it's to align "Google" better with the official mission statement: "to organize the world’s information and make it universally accessible and useful".
08:58:40 <oerjan> well he _does_ have a devilish sense of humor :P
09:00:43 <oerjan> in any case, i fully expect him to be a master manipulator aware of most plots against him
09:01:07 <Taneb> oerjan, it could be that the true master subtly manipulated this conspiracy into being
09:02:37 <Taneb> I'd be willing to bet there's a number of conspiracies centred around a "master" of Paris
09:02:58 <Taneb> Which a) lets others take the fall for threats
09:03:07 <ais523> Taneb: have you read the Foundation series by Asimov?
09:03:07 <oerjan> i've considered the possibility there's no actual master
09:03:08 <Taneb> And b) ties up potential rivals into administrating Paris
09:03:14 <Taneb> ais523, everything but the prequels
09:03:16 <ais523> it has a truly surprising number of nested conspiracies
09:03:26 <ais523> ah right, the prequels don't add much to the conspiracy count
09:03:36 <ais523> just explain the origins of at least two of them
09:03:43 <lambdabot> ‘F.foldlM’ (imported from Data.Foldable),
09:03:48 <lambdabot> (maybe you haven't applied enough arguments to a function?)
09:03:48 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M139423655219615691610827’
09:04:16 <ais523> they're more character-driven, really
09:04:24 <oerjan> i've read enough to know of three levels. hm if the trantor empire itself was one it could be four.
09:05:47 <Taneb> Solarians weren't really a conspiracy as much as a warning of what would be down a particular path
09:06:16 <oerjan> yes, but it's left _very_ open whether they ended up winning
09:06:52 <ais523> and yes, I'm trying to avoid spoilers by not talking about specifics
09:07:06 <Taneb> I need to reread them...
09:07:10 <ais523> I don't count the solarians as part of the "critical path", though
09:07:42 <nflix> off-topic here (sorry): http://hastebin.com/ugiduroqeb.coffee
09:08:11 <ais523> nflix: are you a spambot?
09:08:17 <nflix> looking for ideas for how i can complete that poem..
09:08:28 <oerjan> int-e: this might apply to Data.Traversable too btw
09:08:30 <ais523> but saying "hi", then not responding
09:08:38 <ais523> and then later posting an unsolicited link
09:08:47 <ais523> that you admit is offtopic
09:08:55 <nflix> hahaha sori, was observing the chat...
09:08:55 <ais523> is within the normal bounds for spambot behaviour
09:09:20 <nflix> like the atmosphere here, but very new to talk anything too technical
09:09:50 <ais523> I guess I'm just confused
09:09:56 <ais523> this channel's sort-of offtopic much of the time
09:10:08 <ais523> I guess Haskell is almost ontopic but it somehow manages to be too mainstream to really fit
09:10:59 <oerjan> ramp up the type functions
09:11:06 <nflix> so, any creative ideas ^above
09:11:24 <int-e> oerjan: fortunately this is rather easy to test :)
09:12:27 <int-e> (ghci's :browse qualifies ambgiguous names)
09:13:25 <Taneb> int-e, I did not know that was a thing
09:19:20 <oerjan> int-e: i'm pretty sure one of the mentioned goals of FTP was "no name clashes in base", although i'm also pretty sure they didn't get that far ((.) and id)
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09:19:53 <oerjan> i see you have the Prelude versions
09:20:12 <Taneb> Does C.Category mess up lens?
09:20:37 <Taneb> That's the place I can think of most likely to cause a problem
09:20:39 <lambdabot> forall (k :: BOX) (cat :: k -> k -> *) (b :: k) (c :: k) (a :: k). Category cat => cat b c -> cat a b -> cat a c
09:20:49 <Taneb> That's certainly a type signature
09:21:15 <int-e> I could go Cale's route and let (.) = fmap by way of a compromise.
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09:22:33 <oerjan> > Just ("Hi", 0) & _Just C.. _1 %. "Ho"
09:22:34 <lambdabot> ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function),
09:22:50 <Taneb> int-e, have it be liftA just to confuse everyone
09:23:06 <oerjan> > Just ("Hi", 0) & _Just C.. _1 .~ "Ho"
09:23:16 <oerjan> Taneb: well that didn't hurt
09:23:20 <int-e> or I could just stick to the prelude version
09:23:39 <oerjan> > Just ("Hi", 0) & fmap _Just _1 .~ "Ho"
09:23:49 <oerjan> fmap doesn't hurt either
09:24:30 <lambdabot> Applicative f => (a -> b) -> f a -> f b
09:25:03 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘Control.Lens.uncons’,
09:25:03 <lambdabot> imported from ‘Control.Lens’ at /home/lambda/.lambdabot/State/L.hs:51:1-43
09:25:34 <int-e> (it's also a function in Data.List)
09:25:40 <Taneb> > Just [1,2,3] & _Just C.. traversed %@~ const
09:28:27 <oerjan> ♫ when you wanna get up, up on your feet, caffeine ♫
09:29:06 <lambdabot> Associativity -> Int -> String -> Expr -> Expr -> Expr
09:29:09 <lambdabot> Wrapped s => (Unwrapped s -> s) -> s -> Unwrapped s
09:29:31 <Taneb> > Lens.op (getSum) 10
09:29:33 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Unwrapped s0 ~ Sum s)
09:29:33 <lambdabot> from the context (Num s, Wrapped s, Unwrapped s ~ Sum s)
09:29:33 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_110’:
09:29:58 <Taneb> > Lens.op Sum (Sum 10)
09:30:58 <oerjan> :t Lens.op Sum (Sum 10)
09:31:08 <oerjan> > Lens.op Sum (Sum 10)
09:31:13 <oerjan> > Lens.op Sum (Sum 10) :: Int
09:31:32 <int-e> > reduction (1+2+3)
09:31:49 <Taneb> type Unwrapped (Sum a) = a
09:32:57 <oerjan> int-e: oh the other op is the one used for building Expr operators
09:33:26 <oerjan> now what is Associativity...
09:33:38 <int-e> yeah, I'm in the process of hiding it :P
09:33:47 <Taneb> oerjan, associativity means that (a o b) o c = a o (b o c) hth
09:33:53 <oerjan> Taneb: i mean the type
09:34:32 <Taneb> When I spent a significant portion of yesterday helping someone with a ring theory exam, certain things get in my head
09:35:03 <lambdabot> ‘Control.Lens.op’ (imported from Control.Lens),
09:35:13 <int-e> :t Debug.SimpleReflect.op
09:35:14 <lambdabot> Debug.SimpleReflect.Associativity -> Int -> String -> Expr -> Expr -> Expr
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09:37:17 <Taneb> :t let (£) = op InfixL 3 in reduction (1 £ 2 £ 3)
09:37:18 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘InfixL’
09:37:19 <lambdabot> ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.InfixL’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
09:37:21 <Taneb> > let (£) = op InfixL 3 in reduction (1 £ 2 £ 3)
09:37:27 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘InfixL’
09:37:27 <lambdabot> ‘Debug.SimpleReflect.InfixL’ (imported from Debug.SimpleReflect),
09:37:40 <Taneb> > let (£) = op Debug.SimpleReflect.InfixL 3 in reduction (1 £ 2 £ 3)
09:37:43 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Unwrapped s’
09:37:43 <lambdabot> NB: ‘Unwrapped’ is a type function, and may not be injective
09:38:04 <Taneb> WHERE IS UNWRAPPED GETTING INTO THAT
09:38:15 <lambdabot> Wrapped s => (Unwrapped s -> s) -> s -> Unwrapped s
09:38:30 <Taneb> > let (£) = Debug.SimpleReflect.op Debug.SimpleReflect.InfixL 3 in reduction (1 £ 2 £ 3)
09:38:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Expr -> Expr’ with ‘[Char]’
09:38:49 <Taneb> > let (£) = Debug.SimpleReflect.op Debug.SimpleReflect.InfixL 3 "£" in reduction (1 £ 2 £ 3)
09:39:31 <Taneb> Sorry, I need more sleep
09:46:37 <oerjan> > ["hi","there"] & traversed <<%~ length
09:47:00 <oerjan> hm not what i was aiming for
09:47:15 <Taneb> What were you aiming for
09:47:30 <oerjan> [("hi",2),("there",5)]
09:48:17 <Taneb> > ["hi", "there"] & traverse %~ id <<%~ length
09:48:28 <Taneb> Not very good, I'll see if I can come up with something better
09:48:54 <oerjan> i was sort of hoping that i'd discovered <<%~ to be more powerful than i thought
09:50:39 <oerjan> also, i noticed a discussion somewhere suggesting that <%~ and <<%~ need non-operator names
09:50:50 <oerjan> (but none actually suggested)
09:52:34 <ais523> <<%~ is a worse name than some of the ones in Feather
09:52:45 <oerjan> there are names in Feather?
09:53:18 <Taneb> oerjan, there exists a name in Feather, n, such that n is a better name than "<<%~"
09:53:49 <lambdabot> Optical (Indexed i) q ((,) a) s t a b -> (i -> a -> b) -> q s (a, t)
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09:54:16 <lambdabot> ‘<<<>~’ (imported from Control.Lens),
09:54:24 <Taneb> (<<</>~) :: Optical' (->) q ((,) FilePath) s FilePath -> FilePath -> q s (FilePath, s)
09:56:43 <oerjan> ais523: the thing is lens operators have morphological grammar, and despite Taneb's et al's best efforts it _still_ doesn't define every possible combination.
09:57:17 <ais523> perhaps you need some sort of metaoperator that takes operator components as arguments?
09:57:18 <Taneb> I was doing well, then someone added indexed variants :(
09:57:41 <ais523> oerjan: Feather operators are mostly combinations of punctuation marks following this sort of operator component pattern
09:57:48 <ais523> fortunately for my sanity, I no longer remember most of them
09:57:52 <oerjan> Taneb: i see (<<%=) now exists, i don't recall that from before
09:58:04 <Taneb> oerjan, that has existed for a long time
09:58:08 <APic> ,o0(Your Mind turns into a Pretzel)
09:58:11 <Taneb> Before I went on my operator rampage
09:58:13 <lambdabot> ‘<<%=’ (imported from Control.Lens),
09:58:14 <ais523> there was a symbol that was reasonably consistently used for "unboxed", it may even have been #
09:58:22 <ais523> in which case I claim that Haskell is stealing ideas from me
09:58:46 <int-e> . o O ( import qualified Control.Lens as AbandonAllSanityYeWhoEnterHere )
09:59:10 <Taneb> oerjan, now I'm gonna have to add <<</>@= :(
09:59:24 <Taneb> Or would it be <<@</>= ?
10:00:01 <ais523> oerjan: although in Feather, boxing something makes gain an identity, once something's boxed you can retroactively assign to the box contents
10:00:18 <ais523> whereas if something's unboxed you can't necessarily retroactively assign to it at all, and if you can, it's only because you can somehow find a box inside it
10:00:18 <oerjan> Taneb: do indices makes sense for filepaths
10:01:12 <Taneb> I went on my operator rampage because I needed <<+=
10:01:20 <ais523> actually, I guess the Primary Rule of Feather is this: retroactively assigning to a box changes the value that was placed inside the box at the time of its creation, and all actions since are recalculated
10:01:45 <Taneb> ais523, does feather have first class functions
10:02:05 <ais523> Taneb: yes, also closures
10:02:29 <Taneb> I can see why this'd drive someone insane
10:02:38 <ais523> this is at least partly because my latest plans for producing a Feather interpreter were based on continuously morphing a lambda-calculus-plus-call/cc language into it
10:03:16 <ais523> and then I sort-of got stuck because my plans required an eigenratio of 1
10:03:42 <ais523> eventually you can do it via an eval operator that's defined in terms of itself
10:03:45 <oerjan> i have a combinator interpreter with an eigenration 1 hth
10:03:48 <ais523> but the in-between bits are rather harder to figure out
10:03:58 <ais523> oerjan: actually it might help, I didn't think of using combinators
10:04:07 <ais523> now is not the time to think of Feather :-D
10:04:35 <oerjan> Feather is outside time, now is as good as any hth
10:04:50 <Taneb> oerjan, hence no time is the time to think of Feather
10:06:49 <ais523> oerjan: well, a Feather interpretation does actually have a begin point in time
10:06:54 <ais523> just from outside it, you can't see that point
10:07:04 <ais523> because it retroactively pushes itself further back into history if you try to find out where it is
10:08:30 <oerjan> you need a heap with revision control
10:09:39 <ais523> oerjan: for your eigenratio-1 interp? or for feather generally?
10:09:56 <ais523> it does have the problem that retroactive modifications tend to form infinite loops without some sort of mitigation
10:10:02 <oerjan> my interp was for unlambda, it only needs refcounting
10:10:28 <ais523> wait, this was an unlambda self-interp, that just happened to be eigenratio 1 on top of that?
10:10:54 <ais523> unlambda's actually not a terrible language to implement feather in
10:11:05 <ais523> it has most of the required features, its main issue is that it's ridiculous
10:11:08 <oerjan> i made it way back, and then when that eigenratio guy started blogging i thought of it, and figured it disproved his hypothesis
10:12:20 <ais523> my plans for eigenratio 1 mostly involved the sort of evaluation orders that screw up weak normalization proofs
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10:45:19 <boily> apparently, scow is oerjanspeak. I thought it was shachafspeech.
10:47:22 <oerjan> i think this acknowledgement is scow
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11:11:25 <boily> 18/18. scow scow scow.
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11:26:34 <lambdabot> EGLL 111120Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW032 20/11 Q1021 NOSIG
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11:54:12 <fizzie> "failedfailed to create file", says a tool.
11:54:20 <fizzie> I guess it just means it failed twice as badly.
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12:23:13 <Jafet> Maybe the file creation API returned two failures.
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12:24:50 <Jafet> (Is there any APIs that generally returns multiple failures?)
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12:25:23 <Jafet> Uh, that replacement doesn't work
12:27:30 <Jafet> Hm, X.509 validation libraries (are supposed to) return multiple failures
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12:39:00 <Taneb> If every category has a skeleton then the axiom of choice
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13:51:52 <mroman> I disagree with John Oliver that "What's twitter?" isn't a valid question .
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14:01:22 <mroman> and I like how he makes fun of a wheather guy not knowing what "transgender" means
14:01:29 <mroman> and then he explains sexual orientation wrong
14:01:54 <mroman> looks like he can't keep up himself.
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14:37:08 <mroman> throw new RuntimeException() | new IOException();
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16:25:00 <oerjan> @ask boily <boily> 18/18. scow scow scow. <-- does that mean you're actually floating
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16:30:35 <Hoolootwo> new language idea: exactly like z80 assembly but with only the a and r registers
16:32:43 <Hoolootwo> the r register is for dram refresh and increments every instruction fetch
16:33:01 <lambdabot> ENVA 111620Z 21007KT 180V260 9999 TS VCSH BKN030CB 23/11 Q1008 TEMPO 26025G35KT 4000 TSRAGR BKN012CB RMK WIND 670FT 22010KT
16:33:42 <oerjan> always refresh with a dram, ye hear
16:36:19 <oerjan> it pours down, but _still_ the sun manages to shine too strongly in here
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16:44:13 <fizzie> Just started to rain here.
16:44:15 <lambdabot> EGLL 111620Z 30004KT 260V350 9999 -RA FEW026 20/12 Q1021 NOSIG
16:44:37 <fizzie> All hail the sun god, -RA, -RA, -RA.
16:44:45 <fizzie> Supposedly it'll rain more later.
16:45:21 <fizzie> Your TSRAGR sounds quite impressive.
16:45:35 <fizzie> Thunderstorms, rain, hail. Proper summer weather.
16:50:41 <oerjan> i haven't noticed any thunder or hail yet
16:51:05 <oerjan> and the really bad weather forecast was only for 1 hour
16:51:49 <oerjan> now it says sunny, but 5-6 degrees colder
16:52:16 <oerjan> hm make that 10 compared to the metar
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23:17:54 <fizzie> It's all good until it says CHEMTRAILS.
23:21:59 <boily> I appreciate well-calligraphied chemtrails.
23:22:06 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 6h 57m 5s ago: <boily> 18/18. scow scow scow. <-- does that mean you're actually floating
23:22:44 <lambdabot> CYUL 112300Z 01007KT 15SM FEW015 SCT120 BKN240 21/18 A2970 RMK CU1AC4CI1 CU TR SLP055 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
23:22:58 <boily> yé, humidity is slowly decreasing...
23:23:19 <boily> coppro: chelloppro! was it raining like fungot today?
23:23:19 <fungot> boily: so the takes a monad and a getvalue function, but a real cooler would be one
23:31:37 <boily> @tell oerjan ah. floating. not quite, but a floatation device of some sort wouldn't have been completely useless.
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00:02:04 <mauris> boily: i'm 7000 km away from my usual location!
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00:07:51 <boily> mauris: hellooodl.
00:08:18 <boily> (meanwhile, ascended Shattered Pixel Dungeon! woot!)
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00:46:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Inline]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43721&oldid=34200 * Hppavilion1 * (-7) Fixed name
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01:02:35 <hppavilion[1]> I think that "Call Queue" should be moved to "Call Queue (language)" and a new page be created in its place
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01:19:58 <Hoolootwo> hmm I bet z80 assembly with just register loads and jumps is turing complete
01:20:11 <Hoolootwo> even without any immediate loads and arithmetic
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05:43:51 <jakesyl> hey guys I'm trying to write a JVM in brainfuck. Where do I get started?
05:48:20 <fowl> First you need to find an infinite chasm and gaze into it until you achieve ego death
05:48:51 <myname> that's one hell of a project
05:49:30 <myname> i'd say read rhe jvm specs and start running hello world or the like
05:49:44 <myname> gui programs would be a problem
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05:51:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:()]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43722 * 97.33.132.241 * (+280) Created page with "This gives no information on the way the language works. I'm not very fluent in JS or Scheme. This should be expanded to include at least a brief description of converting (..."
05:59:39 <Jafet> @let ego = const; superego = ap
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07:01:12 <lambdabot> boily said 7h 29m 35s ago: ah. floating. not quite, but a floatation device of some sort wouldn't have been completely useless.
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10:50:46 <boily> hellørjan. we don't have to float today here!
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11:45:04 <oerjan> wtf windows rebooted without my permission
11:45:59 <oerjan> ...and forgot my open tabs.
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11:48:06 <oerjan> come to think of it, one of the reasons it resumes faster is that it no longer goes through that screen that told me when there _is_ a restart planned...
11:50:28 <oerjan> ok there was an option for it. why anyone in their right mind would make that the default boggles my mind...
11:51:25 <oerjan> it's like no one has managed to get it into their thick skulls that rebooting windows is _not_ an operation that can be assumed harmless...
12:04:37 <oerjan> ah there's the scheduled downpour
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12:14:14 <oerjan> it didn't do that before i upgraded to 10
12:14:36 <oerjan> i may of course simply have forgotten how i made it stop on a previous occasion.
12:30:11 <fizzie> Ten does what ten wants.
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13:55:54 <stalem> hello folks! i'll make myself quick; as my current understanding of ResPlicate, based on the series on its page, x and y are popped from the top of the stack, and the resulting sequence is pushed from the bottom?
14:03:33 <stalem> because even if that were so, the sequence of the example output of the python interpreter doesn't follow those rules
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14:08:10 <fizzie> Could you point out a particular step that is against the rules?
14:09:01 <fizzie> I only looked at the first one (6 2 8 1 6 2 8 1 -> 8 1 6 2 8 1 8 1 6 2 8 1) which seemed all right.
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14:10:05 <stalem> no, jeez im sorry my morning coffee prob didn't kick in until a few minutes ago
14:10:42 <stalem> i was thinking very wrongly, but yes, the sequences are right, so off i go then to write an interpreter :P
14:11:07 <stalem> i was thinking however, that maybe the article needs to be clarified that it pops from the top, but pushes to the bottom?
14:13:54 <fizzie> Well, it does say "queue", that's how queues work. Not that I'd object to clarification.
14:16:37 <tswett> How do we know it doesn't pop from the bottom and push to the top?
14:17:03 <stalem> well, i don't know which is more common so it might be a common generalization, but doesn't there exist FIFO and LIFO queues? or am i mixing them up with stacks?
14:19:59 <stalem> at closer inspection I quess a queue would be defined as a FIFO collection, whereas a stack is a LIFO collection
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14:22:11 <stalem> mh. my brain has turned to moosh it seems
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16:40:09 <Taneb> Things to do this weekend:
16:40:18 <Taneb> * Try to ride unicycle again
16:40:38 <HackEgo> 1056) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time \ 1186) <Bike> learn you a unicycle for great good
16:41:07 <Taneb> Oooh, I didn't remember 1186
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17:03:31 <HackEgo> Thanks, unicycle. Thunicycle.
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17:10:46 <quintopia> what is the appeal of a unicycle. i mean if you arent riding it across a tightrope while juggling, that is
17:11:17 <Taneb> quintopia, it's a decent way to get around
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17:14:32 <quintopia> doesnt seem like it. you cant coast, like on a bike or skate board. you have to constantly propel unlike a drifting board. now if you are including airwheel and friends under the unicycle heading, i can understand.
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17:15:59 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
17:16:20 <quintopia> and if you goal is exercise, walking seems superior in all respects
17:17:33 <mauris_> that's a good hidden feature of bin/thanks
17:17:38 <Taneb> Bear in mind I am the kind of person who wears a brightly coloured tie atop a hoodie
17:17:48 <HackEgo> Thanks, nigrischation. Thigrischation.
17:18:27 <HackEgo> nooodle/Noooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
17:18:37 <HackEgo> nooooooodl/noooooodl is the correct spelling
17:19:05 <quintopia> so you are saying that you be learning for clowning and or signalling purposes. this i can understand
17:20:29 <Taneb> Mostly because I like attention
17:21:38 <quintopia> have you already got the juggling part nailed?
17:22:16 <quintopia> like the dude who solved three rubiks cubes while juggling them the whole time?
17:23:29 <Taneb> I cannot juggle nor can I solve rubik's cubes
17:25:08 <quintopia> solving rubiks cubes while juggling them while unicycling while balancing a baseball bat on your head would get you attention. and possibly a steady income busking
17:27:08 <Taneb> I don't know, York has some pretty impressive buskers
17:27:26 <Taneb> Saw someone at the weekend juggling the audience
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17:35:52 <ais523> what's "next line of a matrix" in LaTeX?
17:36:01 <ais523> I assumed it was \\, but apparently not
17:36:30 <mauris_> huh. it should be \\ i think
17:37:08 <ais523> \matrix{a \\ b} is identical to \matrix{a b} in terms of output
17:39:16 <ais523> aha, I need \begin{matrix} ... \end{matrix}
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18:33:30 * oerjan finally understands why RankNConstraints are really awkward to implement
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18:35:32 <oerjan> basically once you make them slightly complicated, they make it necessary to backtrack when resolving contexts, and (as spj said in a trac comment) it's entirely non-obvious how to infer types
18:37:41 <oerjan> example: f :: (forall x. Num x => C (a x), forall x. Ord x => C (a x)) => ...
18:38:13 <oerjan> now, imagine trying to deduce C (a t) for a type which is not a priori known whether it is Num, Ord, or both
18:38:51 <oerjan> shachaf: well i thought of it while away from the computer...
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18:39:54 <oerjan> the compiler cannot decide just from the head C (a x) which instance to use (also, one of the instances might be from global scope instead)
18:42:16 <oerjan> for a less contrived case, imagine a class like class (forall x. Ord x => SetLike t x) => Containery t where ...
18:42:44 <oerjan> and then imagine that not all SetLike containers need an Ord constraint
18:43:33 <oerjan> and then accidentally * SetLike (t x)
18:43:48 <oerjan> and then accidentally i kept typing instead of erasing the line first
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18:45:19 <oerjan> actually, s/Ord/Unbox/ and you can probably make something with Vector fit even better
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19:15:13 <FreeFull> How does copying a cell work in brainfuck?
19:16:32 <fungot> FreeFull: between the ants and yow... ask zippy...!")
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20:29:46 <lambdabot> All I can think of is a platter of organic PRUNE CRISPS being trampled
20:29:46 <lambdabot> by an army of swarthy, Italian LOUNGE SINGERS ...
20:37:52 <HackEgo> arothmorphise/arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry.
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23:39:05 <ais523> `run ls wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm
23:39:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/categorical': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `product': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/braid': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `theory': No such file or directory
23:39:21 <ais523> `run echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm
23:39:27 <HackEgo> xargs: unmatched single quote; by default quotes are special to xargs unless you use the -0 option \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/': Is a directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/ wisdom/☃': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/all': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `the': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `tro
23:39:31 <ais523> and still doesn't work because it's all one line
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23:40:58 <lambdabot> CYUL 122300Z 29011G17KT 15SM BKN028 BKN130 20/15 A2984 RMK SC7AC1 AC TR TCU EMBD NE SLP106 DENSITY ALT 800FT
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23:44:38 <nvd> I think I'll nvd for a bit
23:46:28 <nvd> Hey, boily
23:46:33 <nvd> I am afraid it is time for me to go to bed
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00:24:02 <\oren\> hmm these earbuds have better reproduction... I don't like it.
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00:29:10 <boily> \oren\: mating earphones together to breed new untanglable pairs?
00:30:11 <\oren\> nah, theyseem to have too much treble and too little bass
00:30:42 <Jafet> You can mate bass together to get more bass.
00:36:53 * boily borrows oerjan's swatter and straps it to my mapole
00:37:21 <boily> @tell oerjan IOU one swatter
00:39:53 <\oren\> If I use putty to block the airholes in the headphones it inhibits the super loud treble
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08:26:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43723&oldid=43700 * 109.240.83.158 * (+209) /* Partially Silly Ideas */
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10:05:27 <int-e> hmm. let's see how lambdabot likes ghc-7.10.2 (I intend to update today...)
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10:24:39 <int-e> That's a fancy Haskell extension ;-)
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10:50:50 <boily> uhm... how do we revert to before ais523 went Jack Nicholson through a bathroom door on the wisdom?
10:52:42 <Phantom_Hoover> (in any case you use the mercurial commands, though i don't know how)
10:53:26 <boily> 11 hours ago HackBot <ais523> echo wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rmdefault tip
10:53:28 <boily> 11 hours ago HackBot <ais523> ls wisdom/* | shuf | head -n 10 | xargs rm
10:54:21 <boily> the 'echo' one went nuclear.
10:54:52 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented it.
10:55:08 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
11:00:36 <boily> going to apply something grabbed from http://stackoverflow.com/a/2565996
11:00:49 <boily> 'hg revert --all --rev 38' in the example.
11:01:19 <boily> `` hg revert --all --rev 5893
11:01:21 <HackEgo> abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system
11:02:29 <boily> it seems to have worked.
11:04:01 <boily> I'm there. http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/accbc9c5c7ec/wisdom is the latest revision.
11:05:01 <boily> Gregor: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
11:07:25 <boily> `le/rn to-be-deleted/to-be-deleted
11:07:46 <int-e> what are you doing...
11:09:13 <boily> trying to revert the wisdom to what it was. nearly all 'a*' entries are dead. no 'b*' entries, except 'braid theory'. 'c*', 'd*' and 'e*' have been hit hard.
11:09:14 <int-e> ais523 played Russian roulette with bullets in all the chambers
11:09:40 <boily> it's more to the expanse of the old USSR, with a few ICBMs thrown in.
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11:10:04 <int-e> it was a big revolver, one chamber for each file in wisdom?
11:10:14 * int-e may be stretching the analogy too far
11:10:38 <int-e> . o O ( I need a bigger gun )
11:10:42 <boily> wisdom entries stretched and ripped asunder by a pack of horses.
11:10:54 <boily> . o O ( Atomic horses in bullet chambers )
11:11:06 <int-e> does `revert accept commit ids? like... accbc9c5c7ec
11:11:14 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
11:11:25 <int-e> `revert accbc9c5c7ec
11:11:32 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:11:48 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
11:13:38 <int-e> oh "commit id" <-- I guess I just gave away the fact that I'm more of a git user.
11:17:56 <int-e> <ais523> and still doesn't work because it's all one line
11:18:15 <int-e> a bit of an understatement, there
11:19:32 <boily> git reset --hard HEAD^^ ← even git itself is happy to just scrounge away double-barreled commits.
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11:32:05 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:33:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:34:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access frotz xyzzy: No such file or directory
11:34:46 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access frotz: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access xyzzy: No such file or directory
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11:43:50 <int-e> the behavior of `revert is strange.
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12:55:24 <lambdabot> [1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24,25,26,27,28,...
12:56:52 <oerjan> let me guess, ais523's rampage broke all the symbolic links in wisdom/ again
12:57:08 <ais523> oerjan: it was intended to delete entries in wisdom/ at random
12:57:16 <ais523> it may or may not have done something else instead
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12:58:08 <oerjan> @tell ais523 so instead of one thing i don't approve of, it did something far worse, check.
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12:59:08 <int-e> lambdabot: prepare to be recompiled!
13:00:06 <int-e> I didn't have time for this when ghc-7.10.2 was released.
13:00:10 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 86 Jun 18 05:10 wisdom/real
13:00:34 <\oren\> if angluar js allows me to use made-up tags, can I use <dⅳ> </dⅳ> tags?
13:00:52 <HackEgo> The reals are an overt complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
13:01:15 <HackEgo> java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
13:01:17 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 86 Jun 18 05:10 wisdom/real
13:02:00 <oerjan> oh. the repository browser lies even more thoroughly.
13:02:31 <\oren\> does someone own the .js TLD yet?
13:03:29 <int-e> \oren\: I thought the two-letter tlds were reserved for countries
13:03:45 <\oren\> Jahangir Siddiqui, a PAkistani finance company. lame
13:04:18 <int-e> joint statement, joining sequences
13:04:54 <oerjan> today, i saw i vague possibility of the start of a period of relative tranquility in my life. and sure, just as i returned from the dentist, i find carpenters starting to rearrange the outside of the building because they _still_ haven't managed to repair that leak that was here when i moved in two years ago.
13:05:03 <int-e> juggling skunk (code-name for ubuntu 83)
13:05:13 * oerjan also saw a vague possibility of spelling that line right.
13:06:04 <\oren\> i don't see a spelling mistake
13:06:28 <oerjan> this time, one of them claimed they'd actually _found_ the leak, which i guess is progress.
13:06:43 <oerjan> \oren\: it's a small word
13:07:26 <int-e> It's hidden among the mis-capitalized I's.
13:08:04 <\oren\> Ⅰ is the bast miscapitalized I.
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13:08:29 <ais523> oerjan: sorry about what I did to wisdom/
13:08:31 <ais523> I was just really annoyed
13:08:44 <ais523> I guess I'm upset about what this channel has become
13:08:51 <oerjan> int-e: the repository browser claimed to have restored wisdom/real listing the original symbolic link target, but it just copied the contents
13:08:52 <ais523> I tolerate the quotes because at least they're often actually funny
13:09:24 <ais523> I was also assuming that `revert would work and thus it couldn't do real damage, but perhaps I was wrong
13:09:58 <int-e> ais523: `revert is ... somewhat unpredictable.
13:10:21 <int-e> (at least to me; maybe oerjan or Gregor actually understand it)
13:10:22 * oerjan thinks he may have had a bit too much painkiller, he cannot think straight
13:11:59 <HackEgo> [U+2160 ROMAN NUMERAL ONE]
13:14:21 <int-e> `` rm canary wisdom/real
13:14:27 <int-e> `` ls -la wisdom/real
13:14:29 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 86 Aug 13 13:14 wisdom/real
13:16:50 <int-e> `` ls -la wisdom/the\ reals
13:16:51 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 4 Jun 6 16:18 wisdom/the reals -> real
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13:18:14 <lambdabot> mueval-core: GhcException "cannot satisfy -package comonad\n (use -v for ...
13:18:35 <lambdabot> mueval-core: GhcException "cannot satisfy -package comonad\n (use -v for ...
13:18:37 <oerjan> you cannot do arithmetic without comonads, obvious fact.
13:19:22 <int-e> oh. I should've backed up that other file, too
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13:22:27 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 45m 5s ago: IOU one swatter
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13:26:54 <\oren\> I've added black chess pieces. if you want white ones, use a white color.
13:28:02 <\oren\> that applies to all symbols. there aren't enough pixels in my font to draw an outline for all these
13:29:01 <ais523> oerjan: if you've actually had more painkiller than the maximum shown on the packet, you should consult a doctor or pharmacist immediately
13:29:17 <ais523> if it's within the bounds on the packet but it's preventing you thinking straight anyway, you should probably reduce the dose in future
13:29:27 <oerjan> i didn't, but i had both my own painkillers + 2 shots from the dentist
13:29:41 <ais523> err, hmm, that could be a problem in its own right
13:29:51 <ais523> did the dentist say which painkiller was in use?
13:29:54 <\oren\> Ooh... drug interactions.
13:30:26 <oerjan> it's listed on the receipt, i could check
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13:31:08 <int-e> gah, why does ghc-7.10.2 ship with vector-0.11.0.0 (7.10.1 shipped with 0.10.12.2)...
13:31:43 <oerjan> in any case, i didn't have problem on previous dentist visits, but this time he did two teeths at once in different parts of the mouth
13:32:08 <ais523> I have no idea about the drug reactions in this case
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13:35:36 <oerjan> i found a web page which lists interaction with some antidepressants; nothing relevant.
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13:36:02 * oerjan is not overly worried anyhow
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13:37:30 <oerjan> \oren\: the thing about chess pieces is that you need to be able to show _both_ colors of chess piece on _both_ colors of chess square...
13:38:14 <oerjan> so just reverting colors won't be enough
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13:44:32 <mauris> chess variant where one player owns all the pieces on white squares etc.
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13:48:40 <impomatic_> Masked images for the chess pieces. They you can just reverse the colour (and the mask if you wish)
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13:55:18 <TieSoul> mauris: that chess variant sounds interesting
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14:00:43 <lambdabot> mueval-core: GhcException "cannot satisfy -package lens\n (use -v for mor...
14:02:56 <int-e> yeah, that's what I meant. I keep forgetting that package on updates
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14:49:03 <int-e> sigh. https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/freenode/patches/dlist-0.7.1.1.patch
14:50:44 <int-e> somebody (tm) should work on https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9724
14:51:32 <int-e> anyway, I haven't had lunch yet... later
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17:33:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/FurryScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43724&oldid=36882 * Zzo38 * (+17) Broken link
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19:04:59 <oerjan> ah that explains how my SO answer got so many upvotes
19:05:07 <oerjan> (the question got reddited)
19:07:18 <oerjan> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3grgya/how_atomic_are_ghcs_thunks/
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19:09:32 <ais523> 28 isn't that many upvotes, really
19:09:51 <oerjan> well it's more than i usually get
19:10:09 <shachaf> that's why oerjan is fishing for those premium #esoteric upvotes hth
19:10:33 <shachaf> i would upvote you if i was logged in
19:10:43 <shachaf> but i'm using the wrong computer
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19:10:52 <Taneb> I can't even remember my account details
19:11:00 <ais523> I don't have a StackOverflow account
19:11:06 <oerjan> good, good, because that's _not_ why i mentioned it.
19:11:11 <shachaf> i should go upvote kmc instead for writing that post
19:11:17 <shachaf> where by upvote i mean hug
19:11:42 <oerjan> you're still within hug distance of kmc?
19:12:12 <Taneb> I do not think I am within hug distance of anyone in this channel
19:12:33 <shachaf> oerjan: no, i'm in new york
19:12:42 <shachaf> home of the new york haskell compiler
19:12:50 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
19:13:10 <oerjan> that means you're within hug distance of Taneb hth
19:13:17 <Taneb> oerjan, can you go on a viking raid or something so I am within hug distance of someone
19:13:33 <shachaf> Taneb: why don't you come to new york instead
19:13:37 <shachaf> it's only three letters away
19:13:45 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm an old-fashioned kind of guy
19:13:46 <shachaf> but hurry because i'm leaving in two days
19:13:53 <Taneb> I even wear a tie in my day to day life sometimes
19:14:28 <oerjan> shachaf: it's the intermediate space that's the problem hth
19:15:09 <ais523> Taneb: I still wear a tie whenever I wear a suit
19:15:11 <shachaf> Taneb: well how will i hug you then
19:15:15 <ais523> even though my boss thinks that that's a bad idea for some reason
19:15:22 <mauris_> what's the pair of place names with the highest (geographical distance / edit distance)
19:15:22 <ais523> I told him it'd be weird wearing a suit if I wasn't wearing a tie
19:15:28 <oerjan> Taneb: do you ever wear a bowtie outside your hoodie twh
19:15:41 <Taneb> oerjan, yes, on occasion
19:15:42 <ais523> mauris_: there are tons of duplicated place names, which each manage +inf on that scale
19:15:52 <Taneb> I am afraid it is a velcro bow tie rather than a proper one
19:15:57 <Taneb> Because I don't know how to tie them
19:16:06 <oerjan> you should ask spj hth
19:16:08 <Taneb> I prefer wearing a tie, though
19:16:44 * int-e growls at oerjan for linking to reddit rather than the original source
19:17:21 <ais523> the Hollywood in Birmingham, UK is much less glitzy than the US place witht the same name
19:17:53 <Taneb> I have never been to either, to my memory
19:18:10 <ais523> you'd be unlikely to go via the one in Birmingham because it now has a bypass
19:18:25 <ais523> so the only reason to go there would be if it were an endpoint of your journey, which is statistically unlikely because it's so small
19:18:28 <Taneb> I am not often in that end of the country
19:18:49 <Taneb> Birmingham's kind of out of the way for someone who mostly spends my time in the North East and Yorkshire
19:19:07 <oerjan> ignoring infinities, to beat south pole vs. north pole, you need two places with 1 edit distance more than half the globe apart
19:19:08 <Taneb> I went up to Edinburgh sometimes too
19:19:23 <ais523> Taneb: Birminghm isn't in an end of the country, it's in the middle (at least if you interpret "country" = "England" and not "UK")
19:19:35 <Taneb> I was using end in a more figurative sense
19:19:53 <ais523> apparently, to a Londoner, even Birmingham is "up north"
19:20:08 <ais523> so I'm unsurprised a resident of York considers it to be excessively south
19:20:10 <Taneb> ais523, I consider York to be "down south"
19:20:40 <Taneb> But when I'm being more serious I do admit the midlands are a place that exist
19:20:59 <ais523> you're already doing better than most people, then :-(
19:21:21 <Taneb> I think I even went to them once
19:21:55 <ais523> most country-wide transport companies (buses, trains, etc.) are headquartered in Birmingham, because it's one of the most convenient places to get to and from
19:22:05 <oerjan> int-e: i did it on the same principle according to which i wouldn't link to an arxiv pdf: the other option does not include a link to the first
19:22:06 <int-e> oerjan: here's a contender: nil river [guatemala] to nile river [india]
19:22:30 <Taneb> ais523, York is about as convenient, I think, but somewhat smaller, and further from London
19:23:02 <ais523> Taneb: well it's hard to get to from anywhere in the south of the country
19:23:26 <Taneb> Direct trains to London like every 15 minutes during the day
19:23:35 <ais523> whereas Birmingham is a good place if you want to reduce average journey times to random places in England (and even if you count the whole UK, it isn't terrible if you weight by population)
19:23:39 <Taneb> And Reading, and Southampton
19:23:50 <ais523> we have three competing train operators all doing frequent direct trains to London
19:24:03 <Taneb> But I think I am biased to the north
19:24:07 <shachaf> Taneb: the real question is when are we going to hug it out twh
19:24:09 <int-e> oerjan: but there must be something better; I was curious whether a 'nil river' exists at all and got lucky :)
19:24:10 <oerjan> <Taneb> I was using end in a more figurative sense <-- like asimov? (explaining this further would be a spoiler)
19:24:25 <Taneb> oerjan, not that figurative
19:24:41 <ais523> Taneb: well I'm one of the people who's happy to admit that the North exists and is relevant
19:24:53 <ais523> even if I personally haven't been north of Sheffield (at least, not since I've been old enough to remember)
19:25:12 <int-e> oerjan: also, perhaps pairs of longer names with the same edit distance should score better.
19:25:17 <Taneb> I haven't been south of Leeds since December, when I went to Australia
19:26:06 <Taneb> But almost all my train journeys are between Hexham, Newcastle, and York
19:26:18 <Taneb> Anyway I am going to go now
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20:32:45 <ais523> has anyone done `olist yet?
20:32:53 <ais523> if not they probably should
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20:39:32 <mauris_> hmm, it's interesting to think about stuff like balls and circles under edit distance
20:40:43 <myname> how do you edit a circle?
20:41:36 <mauris_> i mean like: a circle around a word, under the metric formed by edit distance
20:42:09 <mauris_> C(cat, 1) = {ca, ct, at, aat, bat, ...}
20:43:16 <mauris_> i wonder if you can "circumscribe" every set of words, i.e. find a word that has equal edit distance to all of them
20:48:47 <myname> i guess you just need to know how often words of what length occur
20:49:19 <myname> mauris_: the challenge is the smallest distance at that
20:49:42 <myname> i can find a word for every set if the dostance is as large as the largest word
20:52:01 <mauris_> i suppose it's trivially impossible if you have a one-character alphabet, rip
20:52:17 <mauris_> like "a" and "aa" and "aaaa" can't share a center
20:54:52 <myname> oh, yeah, didn't tjought of a limited alphabet
20:55:58 <ais523> if you have an infinitely large alphabet
20:56:11 <ais523> you can do it using a word that's longer than any of the other words and has no characters in common
20:58:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ultimate Programming Language to Take Over a Prison, Then He World]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43725&oldid=43712 * Iisu * (+1354) Minor fixes, added multiplication, added a Hello world program
20:58:33 <myname> you could try minimizing that by building a trie or the like
21:00:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43726&oldid=43648 * Iisu * (+73) /* U */
21:00:36 <Taneb> ais523, I felt like playing CKII for a bit
21:00:52 <ais523> hmm, how far south is that?
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21:03:47 <Taneb> Which apparently is in the Petty Kingdom of Strathclyde
21:03:56 <ais523> I like the name "petty kingdom"
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21:09:19 <oerjan> `` olist 998 # nope, i didn't see no one do nothing
21:09:29 <HackEgo> olist 998: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
21:12:20 <Taneb> Actually, in my CKII game, the Petty Kingdom of Strathclyde is *only* York
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21:31:03 <oerjan> oots prediction: durkon's presence swings the vote.
21:32:58 <oerjan> towards the most dangerous option...
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21:37:53 <shachaf> oerjan: and there i was thinking his presence would be insignificant
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21:50:26 <oerjan> shachaf: you don't say.
21:51:01 <oerjan> well ok the real twist is that it's the option roy just tried to argue for.
21:54:50 <Taneb> Hmm, I seem to be doing the thing where I forget to do everything again
21:55:35 <Taneb> Eating is a bit harder
21:55:45 <shachaf> Taneb: did the latest olist take your breath away
21:55:56 <Taneb> It might, if I read Order of the Stick
21:56:35 <Taneb> I have not, however, so it does not
21:56:51 <shachaf> another thing on the list of things you're forgetting to do
21:57:34 <Taneb> I am going to deal with other ones first
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22:47:08 <boily> I swear, every time I update the wisdom for some reason or another, there's a new Tanebvention.
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22:51:22 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
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22:52:03 <\oren\> uh, the universe involves a lot of sex...
22:53:31 <HackEgo> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan.
23:03:14 <MDude> Sex runs a few layers of abstraction running above that of the universe.
23:04:57 <MDude> I guess his inventions perform plasmid exchange instead.
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23:11:33 <boily> Taneb: Tanelle. do you exchange plasmids regularly? if so, you may be an unicellular creature.
23:12:07 <boily> (for the record, I got nothing against unicellular protists. they're as thwackable as anything else.)
23:13:38 <boily> also, ♪ fresh new PDF version with about all the alphabet covered, and some more ♪
23:13:45 <boily> I still need to update the quotes.
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23:37:02 <coppro> why did google bring back underlines
23:38:20 <oerjan> the underlings demanded it
23:38:34 <boily> cheloppro. it's to support their links hth
23:38:47 <boily> hellørjan. Sgello. hellochaf, and MDudello.
23:43:46 <\oren\> I want to start a mutual fund where the manager is literally a chimpanzee.
23:45:32 <\oren\> or maybe a gorilla or a bonboo or somthing
23:47:33 * oerjan steals boily's mapole and *THWACKS* MDude
23:47:58 <\oren\> my point is we will buy the companies that the monkey throws the least shit at
23:48:28 <boily> right, I own you a swatter.
23:48:37 <MDude> Instead of just logos, there should be live feeds of news on each company.
23:49:02 * boily gives oerjan a nice mahogany/carballoy swatter and grabs back his trusty mapole
23:49:28 <oerjan> um this is not The Swatter
23:49:43 * oerjan rummages in boily's drawers
23:51:06 * oerjan makes sounds like a fly
23:51:16 <boily> it's taped to my mapole.
23:52:03 <\oren\> "Our Chimpanzee-based investing strategy gives you exposure to primate-friendly markets with a range of yields."
23:53:58 <boily> you won't get me alive!
23:54:03 * boily hides behind a moose
23:54:26 * oerjan uses his trusty moose whistle to start a stampede
23:54:51 * oerjan quickly swaps the swatters in the confusion
23:56:59 <oerjan> i'm sorry but it's definitely _not_ noon, but more than an hour after midnight
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00:12:49 <lambdabot> (Functor f, Field2 s t a b) => s -> (a -> f b) -> f t
00:15:06 <shachaf> mauris_: looj i invented s t a b
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00:22:12 <mauris_> shachaf, a.k.a. Looj the First
00:22:28 <shachaf> i was not the first person to use it
00:22:33 <shachaf> but probably i shouldn't even be using it in here
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00:27:41 <boily> shachaf is royalty?
00:28:03 <boily> and how does one pronounce the “j” in looj?
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00:44:34 <\oren\> Hmm. I'mma make a variant of my font where \ and ¥ are swapped, for nefarious purposes
00:51:07 <Sgeo> What's wrong with login_name@server ?
00:54:13 <Sgeo> Well, I guess if you're using ssh in an automated fashion it could be useful
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01:02:45 <\oren\> what if your username has @ in it
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01:19:14 <boily> \oren\: that is unacceptable!
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02:15:30 <\oren\> I just finished Runic, which unicode block should I do next?
02:22:13 <mauris_> \oren\: are you making a font
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04:29:50 <\oren\> ᚠᚡᚢᚣᚤᚥᚦᚧᚨᚩᚪᚫᚬᚭᚮᚯᚰᚱᚲᚳᚴᚵᚶᚷᚸᚹᚺᚻᚼᚽᚾᚿ
04:31:28 <\oren\> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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05:05:31 <\oren\> myname: which symbols should I add next?
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05:07:23 <Skin> Can someone tell me what language this is https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/Paws.c/blob/Master/Source/Nuketypes/execution/Script.c
05:07:33 <myname> that's a good question
05:07:44 <Skin> Someone sent this to me out of no where and I'm honestly confused
05:10:57 <Hoolootwo> yes that is C, one of the oldest languages still in use today
05:11:48 <Hoolootwo> also there's this thing https://github.com/ELLIOTTCABLE/Paws.c/search?l=c
05:14:10 <\oren\> it's C but formatted in a screwy manner
05:14:46 <Hoolootwo> C is basically meant to be formatted screwily
05:17:34 <\oren\> no. there are standard ways to format C code so it can be read fluently
05:19:21 <myname> the .c at the end could have been a clue
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05:50:25 * ashl tries to remember something which was written in a bizarre dialect of C where they had ifdef'd return to R and so on
05:54:40 <ashl> don't think so... this is going to drive me nuts.
05:55:15 <shachaf> http://www.nsl.com/papers/origins.htm
05:55:55 <ashl> how did you find that
05:56:13 <shachaf> I've worked through most of that implementation with someone before.
05:56:22 <shachaf> Though I don't remember much about it now.
05:56:27 <shachaf> Something about boxes being strange.
05:56:40 <ashl> i was thinking 'it was something to do with APL' but that's nowhere near enough to actually google it :P
05:57:33 <HackEgo> ashl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
06:00:22 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=apl+%22define+r+return%22
06:00:54 <shachaf> I guess that trick doesn't work if you're expecting ifdef.
06:01:16 <ashl> yeah i have no idea where ifdef came from
06:01:40 <myname> apl ascii is also a good choice to find J iirc
06:02:14 <ashl> well, it came from having just woken up and not having had any coffee yet
06:02:20 <ashl> so i'm going to make some coffee.
06:05:50 <shachaf> myname: Sure, but presumably they weren't looking for J but for some strange C program vaguely related to APL.
06:05:57 <\oren\> I often #define ei else if
06:06:33 <\oren\> and #define bcase break;case
06:12:12 <ashl> makes sense i guess
06:21:06 <myname> i often avoid writing c
06:21:31 <ashl> makes sense i guess
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07:05:31 <FreeFull> https://github.com/kevinlawler/kona/ This does similar things too ashl
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07:13:39 <ashl> synthesis of APL and lisp heh
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12:18:41 <int-e> "stack" is going on my nerves... when will people stop naming their stuff by common words...
12:20:24 <int-e> . o O ( Go swift, stack! )
12:20:53 <shachaf> int-e: all the uncommon words are taken hth
12:22:29 <int-e> . o O ( The vacuum containers cabal strikes again. )
12:31:52 <oerjan> int-e: they tried to suggest a renaming, but it was refused...
12:32:15 <Deewiant> https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/3d3e95/please_rename_stack_to_haystack/
12:32:55 <int-e> oh that would be a rather nice name.
12:35:40 <int-e> Deewiant: thanks for the link
12:41:11 <\oren\> is "salmon" acceptable?
12:44:36 <int-e> \oren\: as long as you're not using it for some kind of food, cutlery or dishes...
12:44:42 <int-e> (that isn't salmon)
12:46:58 <\oren\> "salmon" is the language some of my work is done in. http://rosettacode.org/wiki/Category:Salmon
12:48:29 <Taneb> For the first time ever I have solved a Rubik's Cube!
12:50:01 <oerjan> did you use group theory
12:50:10 <Taneb> For this, I did not
12:50:16 <Taneb> I followed a tutorial I found on the internet
12:50:30 <Taneb> Although I can definitely see how group theory could be used
12:52:29 <int-e> Taneb: One can explain conjugate elements on a Rubik's cube :)
12:52:43 * oerjan notes that Hacker News's font size is so awkward to adjust right that it's become the first site he turns off CSS entirely for
12:54:10 <int-e> [if you have a combination that swaps three particular edge pieces, but you want to swap three different edge pieces, you can first make some moves to adjust their positions, then use the combination, then undo the moves you performed initially; algebraically: A C A^-1, A = adjustment; C = combination)
12:55:01 <int-e> oops, sorry, I disturbed the natural balance. (]
12:55:05 <Taneb> You can do a lot of group theory with a rubik's cube
12:55:30 <oerjan> someone should make a puzzle whose group is the monster
12:55:37 <int-e> it's just that I like the conjugate explanation best.
12:55:39 <Taneb> Like, if you mess up a rubik's cube, then keep messing it up IN EXACTLY THE SAME WAY, you eventually get back to the start position
12:55:47 <oerjan> i suppose that might be a bit hard to solve
12:56:33 <int-e> and the larger cubes are actually a (permutation) group acting on the cube's surface, because they have indistinguishable pieces.
12:58:16 <oerjan> Taneb: i've done that with the "rotate one face, then rotate the whole cube" operation. i think it took somewhere between 1000 and 2000 repetitions.
12:58:42 <oerjan> rotate one face 180 degrees too, that's much faster and has pretty patterns
12:59:50 * oerjan briefly wonders if the no. of repetitions for 90 degrees + whole cube depends on which directions you choose
13:00:16 <oerjan> well, the two nontrivial options
13:01:33 <int-e> Taneb: oh and there's also a use for commutators, though mainly because they tend to result in very short cycles.
13:02:18 <int-e> (try (r u r' u')^3)
13:02:23 <Phantom_Hoover> because i can see why conjugates would, but not commutators
13:03:41 <oerjan> i vaguely thought commutators are useful for getting combinations that avoid moving certain cubelets
13:04:31 <oerjan> because anything that's left untouched by one of the two elements doesn't move overall
13:09:36 * oerjan concludes the two nontrivial ways of "rotating 90 degrees first a face, then the whole cube in a nonparallel direction" are conjugate
13:10:13 <oerjan> through 180 degree parallel rotation
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14:06:26 <int-e> > foldl lcm 1 [1,4,1,3,12,9,10,14]
14:06:44 <int-e> somewhere between 1000 and 2000 indeed.
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14:32:18 <oerjan> i may have looked up that number sometime
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14:54:36 * mroman is watching last week tonight
14:55:16 <mroman> All these shows make me think that america is actually very poor.
14:55:29 <mroman> the people there at least.
14:56:20 <mroman> a woman can't pay a 41$ fee
14:57:03 <Taneb> America, to my knowledge, is a country with a lot of money in a few bank accounts
14:57:41 <mroman> Well I feel really rich now :)
14:58:05 <mroman> I could pay 250 of those each month and I wouldn't give a shit about it.
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14:58:26 <mroman> I wouldn't even notice that
14:59:26 <mroman> I could pay 250 of those
14:59:35 <mroman> but only every year :)
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14:59:53 <mroman> I FEEL LESS RICH NOW THX TANEB
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15:00:10 <mroman> but still rich enough :p
15:00:31 <mroman> "Taneb: Making you feel less rich since 1970"
15:00:48 <Taneb> Seeing as I was born in 1994 that is quite impressive
15:00:58 <Taneb> In 1970 both my parents turned 7
15:01:01 <mroman> You're so bad you did evil even before you were born.
15:01:11 <Taneb> I think my mum was living in Pakistan, and my dad was in Australia
15:01:37 <mroman> I thought you were older.
15:02:10 <Taneb> Just I've been hanging out in here since I was 15 or so
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16:16:43 <Taneb> Random trivia: I can sort of run backwards
16:18:02 <ashl> do you mean you can moonwalk quickly
16:18:19 <Taneb> No, I can't moonwalk at all
16:18:25 <Taneb> But I can run backwards
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16:23:23 <HackEgo> 1137) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
16:24:45 <HackEgo> 944) * fungot has joined #esoteric <boily> woohoo! the one and only fungot is back! <fungot> boily: damn your mother! <boily> ok. never saw that one coming.
16:25:03 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.8487
16:27:59 <ashl> 'U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O'
16:33:59 <int-e> ashl: it's one of the more popular unicode codepoints around here
16:35:26 <ashl> has it made it into any esolangs
16:35:46 <int-e> diligent, too... always watching
16:37:27 <int-e> somehow, making the same mistake over and over again makes it really hard to solve some puzzles...
16:39:21 <int-e> ( http://nikoli.com/swf/sl.swf?loadUrl=/nfp/sl-1269.nfp&lang=1 ... finally got it. )
16:39:22 <idris-bot> http://nikoli.com/swf/sl.swf?loadUrl=/nfp/sl-1269.nfp&lang=1 ... finally got i>
16:39:46 <ashl> idris-bot: a little eager perhaps?
16:40:15 <int-e> (sorry, I should've put some non-space after the opening parenthesis)
16:41:48 <int-e> > http://nikoli.com/swf/sl.swf?loadUrl=/nfp/sl-1269.nfp&lang=1
16:41:50 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:59: parse error on input ‘=’
16:42:00 <int-e> hmm, a tad less verbose in this case :)
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18:08:16 <zzo38> Yesterday I was on the ifMUD and I had a 69105-dimensional mapping tool, and I was also reading the dreaming channel. And then I was updating my "dream.txt" file, and then when I saved it I noticed that the file is exactly 69105 bytes long!
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19:27:05 <ashl> |f`-`|f: not a fan of 69105-dimensional mapping?
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19:58:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43727&oldid=42649 * 4D enthusiast * (-33) /* stdtime */ altered behaviour of pause and ms commands
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20:05:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Object oriented thue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43728&oldid=43727 * 4D enthusiast * (+0) Added link to an interpreter
20:10:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:4D enthusiast]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43729&oldid=34256 * 4D enthusiast * (+146)
20:12:09 <zzo38> A "JazzJackrabbit" game has .PSM files it seems to be music files is there a document of format of such file?
20:12:44 <zzo38> Well, libmodplug seem to be able to play it, whatever it is.
20:13:05 <shachaf> zzo38: http://justsolve.archiveteam.org/wiki/Epic_Megagames_MASI
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21:19:33 <oerjan> <int-e> ( http://nikoli.com/swf/sl.swf?loadUrl=/nfp/sl-1269.nfp&lang=1 ... finally got it. ) <-- argh what are the rules
21:19:47 <oerjan> also, i hate timer on puzzles.
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23:11:02 <\oren\> quote 489) is the moment #esoteric became the dwarf fortress channel
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23:15:05 <HackEgo> 489) <Phantom_Hoover> FFS, building a perpetual motion machine should not be this hard.
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23:46:42 <HackEgo> 577) <Phantom_Hoover> http://i.imgur.com/dosYw.png <Phantom_Hoover> WELCOME TO FUCKING STEELROMANCED
23:51:18 <HackEgo> 527) <Taneb> Mayor says we need to make aluminum items <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, PH says you need to make lava items.
23:51:43 <Taneb> `quote pointy steel
23:51:43 <HackEgo> 466) <Taneb> Maybe if you try diplomacy. <Taneb> Pointy steel diplomacy
23:51:49 <Taneb> I think that was DF
23:52:17 <Taneb> Anyway I am going to bed now
23:54:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[POGAACK]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43730&oldid=42648 * Xavo * (-4)
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00:13:18 <\oren\> In my font I encoded 7-segment display numbers as ①②③④⑤⑥⑦⑧⑨⑩⑪⑫⑬⑭⑮⑯⑰⑱⑲⑳
00:20:33 <\oren\> I think I'll make up random uses for the other useless unicode characters
00:25:49 <zzo38> There is also the private areas if they are needed. And then if you need even more, you can also use the codes outside of Unicode range, although this is not guaranteed to work with all programs if you do that!
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02:15:15 <oerjan> silentsparrow: http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/?comic=29
02:15:18 <zzo38> I do not understand
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02:17:09 <silentsparrow> zzo38: "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" .. -> "In his house at R'lyeh, dead Cthulhu waits dreaming."
02:20:30 <\oren\> So you are waiting and dreaming?
02:23:23 <silentsparrow> ..but you're right. it's just another pointless pop-cultural reference whispered into the void
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02:31:51 <\oren\> have you watched haiyore! nyarko-san?
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02:42:26 <silentsparrow> i read it's been "inspired" by lovecraft's myth as well
02:51:28 <silentsparrow> the pen & paper game was kinda cool. unlike in all the other rpgs your character does not gain skills, but continuously loses his sanity
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07:08:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43731&oldid=43001 * Rdebath * (+700) Add compiler to replace lost external
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07:15:33 <zzo38> I think some people using TeX will use external programs to make the index, sorting, bibliography, etc although I generally do these things within TeX (although running them on the older computers TeX was originally designed for may run it slowly or run out of memory)
07:39:33 <zzo38> The capacities of the TeX I am using are much larger than those in Computers & Typesetting volumes A and B (and the ones on page 383 of volume A are already "fairly large"); however even level20.tex does not seem to need more than the large TeX used in the example.
07:40:20 <zzo38> (But it is getting close, unlike the example where there is a lot more free!)
07:48:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Poison]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43732&oldid=37185 * Shubshub * (+92) Updated Download Link
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10:18:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Glypho]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43733&oldid=19903 * Rdebath * (+904) Simple Turing completeness proof
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12:51:33 <int-e> fungot: are you a traitorous heap of bytes?
12:51:33 <fungot> int-e: did you see my laml elucidation of the subject. my brain probably can't cope with any fiction worth reading at the moment
12:51:51 <int-e> I'll take that as a yes.
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12:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ProgramFOX * New user account
12:58:40 <int-e> ashl: http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20150814 might help
12:59:19 <int-e> also I have a complicated relationship with fungot ;)
12:59:19 <fungot> int-e: what is preventing you from doing something cool. we'll find a way to solve that. making bfirc getting stuck on kinda simple things
12:59:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43734 * Martin Büttner * (+393) Created page with "'''Retina''' is a regex-based programming language. The main design goal of Retina is to be able to use regular expressions with as little boilerplate code as possible. It is ..."
13:00:25 <int-e> especially its IRC style; it has an infuriating tendency of almost making sense
13:01:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43735&oldid=43734 * Martin Büttner * (+96)
13:02:01 <ashl> i see what you mean
13:02:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43736&oldid=43726 * Martin Büttner * (+35)
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13:05:13 <ashl> it never occurred to me you could write a bot in funge
13:05:20 <ashl> an IRC bot i mean
13:05:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Marbelous]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43737&oldid=43194 * ProgramFOX * (+2) "Stack Exchange" has to be spelled with a space
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13:50:40 <HackEgo> füngöt/Füngöt is the German pronunciation of fungot.
13:58:43 <ashl> i can't think of a way to turn boily into a greeting, sorry :P
14:00:24 <boily> there are multiple accepted pormanthelloes for my name. I think 'bohily' is canonical, but I always appreciate a French touch.
14:01:41 <boily> have you perused the PDF in the /topic?
14:02:01 <ashl> to be honest, i don't know how to scroll the topic in this client :P
14:04:23 <boily> → https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf ←
14:06:30 <int-e> ashl: you can also use /topic to query the topic, I suspect
14:06:45 <oerjan> i don't know how to scroll the topic in mine either, although it's usually in the top of the channel window backscroll
14:09:12 <ashl> /topic works, thanks.
15:15:45 <\oren\> ok apparently I didn't know either the pronounciation or the mean of the word "poignant"
15:16:36 <\oren\> it is poynyant, not poyg-nant
15:18:31 <boily> hell\oren\! learning French?
15:28:31 <oerjan> the people who thought of that pronunciation should be thrown in gaol
15:30:51 * oerjan spots someone writing "space leek"
15:31:10 <oerjan> the Space Leek, Haskellman's nemesis
15:32:57 <boily> `wisdom space leek
15:32:58 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*space leek*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
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16:42:08 <boily> for my defense, I'm having lunch.
16:42:22 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAA!
16:44:20 <Taneb> quintopia, I had breakfast at 3PM
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16:44:31 <Taneb> But I think I am in a different time zone to you
16:45:02 <boily> Tanelle. you live in UTC.
16:45:15 <boily> (Universal Taneb Compendium)
16:45:57 <boily> quintopia: you live in boilyzone, with almost certainly the same DST rules.
16:46:19 <Taneb> boily, currently I'm in BST (Big Summer Taneb)
16:46:38 <quintopia> im glad you are more familiar with us time zones and geography than i am with canadian
16:46:39 <\oren\> I'm adding cursive to my font. the useless circled letter characters will be cursive.
16:47:02 <quintopia> where does canadian central time start
16:47:09 <coppro> quintopia: saskatchewn
16:47:34 <Taneb> Saskatchewan, I think
16:47:45 <coppro> it ends somewhere in ontario
16:47:49 <\oren\> because circled characters don't work in a 9x16 form facter
16:48:23 <\oren\> it is 9 pixel wide and 16 high
16:50:04 <\oren\> http://www.timetemperature.com/canada/catzmap.gif
16:50:20 <quintopia> sskchwn seems too far west to still be central.
16:50:41 <quintopia> what are the eastern and western central borders
16:51:41 <quintopia> i'll guess alberta is mountain and BC is pacific and yukon is the next one before pacific
16:51:43 <coppro> quintopia: sk doesn't use daylight savings
16:52:01 <coppro> Ontario uses Central west of the 90 degree W meridian
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16:52:46 <coppro> time is local jurisdiction
16:52:58 <coppro> bits of BC also don't use DST
16:53:10 <coppro> most of BC is pacific, except for that zone and a few areas near Alberta that are on Mountain
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16:54:29 <quintopia> why is all of nwt in mountain. the eastern reaches look more central
16:54:43 <\oren\> essentially time can be decided by an individual town
16:54:50 <quintopia> i guess those parts are relatively uninhabited anyway
16:55:21 <\oren\> most of canada is uninhabited
16:55:22 <coppro> quintopia: the whole thing is off
16:56:10 <coppro> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2572317/Are-YOU-living-sync-Amazing-map-reveals-manmade-timezones-countries-false-sense-sun-rises.html
16:56:49 <boily> most of Canada doesn't exist.
16:57:17 <coppro> boily: got a sanbai the other day!
16:57:18 <quintopia> oren: i suspect all of cansda is uninhabited. self-proclaimed "canadians" are just americans who dont want the rest of the world to associate them with their fellow countrymen, whom they look down on
16:57:33 <coppro> http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015081302gm-0089-0000-a0731060&tw=1&ts=2
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16:59:06 <boily> coppro: was your sambai outrageous?
16:59:15 <quintopia> boily: good news! i'm canadian too!
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17:00:31 <\oren\> Hmm... Japan's time zone is in sync in Oosaka
17:02:02 <boily> quintopia: I'm not exactly sure it quite works like that. did you pledge your allegiance to HM the Queen?
17:02:08 <\oren\> which makes Tokyo actually have sunrise ahead of schedule
17:08:37 <\oren\> Oh, I get it. Japan time is Kyoto time!
17:09:05 <\oren\> maybe in Canada we should standardize on Ottawa time.
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17:09:56 <\oren\> that way, the people in Vancouver will have the sun rise at noon!
17:11:28 <boily> credible. she's Queen of enough places in the world so I can't see why not.
17:11:48 <quintopia> just like any true canadian, i can pretend there are still monarchies in the 21st century
17:12:40 <boily> I think \oren\ is canadianer than me...
17:12:50 <\oren\> Our money says Elizabeth II D. G. Regina.
17:13:44 * quintopia takes a sharpie to his monopoly set
17:13:52 <\oren\> = "Elizabeth the Second, by the grace of God, Queen"
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21:46:27 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
21:46:43 <boily> @tell hppavilion[1] I'm here.
21:47:56 <boily> now that's a name I'm not used to see here.
21:48:07 * oerjan suddenly realizes boily has no adequate reply to it
21:48:35 <oerjan> boily: i see it frequently in /r/friends hth
21:50:12 <oerjan> i note that montreal bagel opinions are fierce
21:53:22 <Taneb> Trivia: I have ONLY ONCE had a bagel
21:54:13 <oerjan> i suppose i haven't had that many. there once was a place called "bagel & juice" in the city center, though
21:54:34 <Taneb> I'm not particularly keen on them, and my family never bought them as long as I can remember
22:04:14 <boily> I wonder how low my comment went...
22:05:05 <boily> oh, -4. not so bad.
22:12:00 <shachaf> Taneb: http://www.seriouseats.com/2015/05/what-makes-a-good-bagel-bad-bagel-kenji-opinion-untoasted.html hth
22:12:07 <Taneb> I think it had egg and bacon on it
22:14:41 <Taneb> Thinking about it I think it was toasted
22:22:50 <Taneb> This was a couple of years ago now
22:28:34 <Taneb> I was wearing an Iron Man costume
22:28:47 <Taneb> Somewhere in the hills to the west of Hexham
22:33:24 <boily> was it a fetish society?
22:34:01 <Taneb> No, that was a few months later
22:34:23 <Taneb> `quote fetish society
22:34:24 <HackEgo> 1123) <Taneb> kmc, I was trying to go to a sci-fi and fantasy society social, and I went to the wrong bar <Taneb> Wound up at my university's fetish society <Taneb> Didn't realise for an hour and a half
22:36:32 <boily> ashl: I haven't asked you the The Question yet: what are you approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
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22:39:19 <ashl> approximately 52° 9′ N, 4° 29′ E and i don't know
22:41:30 <Taneb> ashl, you can borrow my body weight if you want
22:41:46 <Taneb> Although I wouldn't recommend having simultaneously my body weight and height
22:41:59 <ashl> what height would you recommend
22:42:22 <Taneb> I'm 5'11.5" which makes me a little underweight
22:42:30 <ashl> ok, boily: i'll go with 5'10 and Taneb's weight
22:42:37 <ashl> oh, you didn't ask for heigh.
22:42:55 <boily> it's customary to drop the last t, when refering to the The Question.
22:42:56 <ashl> Taneb's weight / 5'10 * Taneb's height
22:43:15 <boily> Taneb: you're taller than me. that is unforgivable!
22:43:26 <ashl> was it correct?
22:43:32 <Taneb> boily, I didn't mean to!
22:43:38 <Taneb> ashl, you're in the Netherlands?
22:44:27 <boily> if I'm not mistaken, he/she is our first Dutchänneller!
22:44:35 <oerjan> what would we do without google maps
22:44:46 <Taneb> ashl, my dad's family originally comes from near Utrecht
22:46:15 * boily clears his throat. "uuuuh... hallo? hoe gaat het met jou? mijn luchtkussenboot zit vol paling!"
22:47:48 <ashl> how unfortunate :P
22:48:04 <oerjan> my dutch is better than i thought, despite being nonexistent
22:48:20 <oerjan> got the last sentence without help
22:48:33 <Taneb> ashl, although his parents moved to Australia and my dad himself to the UK which is where I live
22:50:00 <ashl> Taneb: wait, he moved from utrecht to australia then to the UK?
22:50:22 <Taneb> ashl, no, my dad's parents moved when they were children to Australia
22:50:45 <Taneb> Then my dad moved to the UK to work for a few years, then met my mum and got married and moved here permanently
22:51:10 <ashl> boily: i hope you are making notes on Taneb's family tree for your document
22:52:09 <Taneb> ashl, my dad's mum's family name is completely traced! If you ever meet anyone with the unlikely name of Wolswinkel, they will be related to me
22:52:19 <Taneb> Moreover, one of my great uncles will know how
22:52:59 <ashl> i will bear that in mind!
22:54:00 <Taneb> Or any variants of the name, like Wolfswinkel and van Wolfswinkel and van Wolswinkel
22:54:13 <boily> Taneb is doomed to being met.
22:54:54 <Taneb> boily, I've never met anyone in this channel whom I hadn't already met when they joined
22:55:39 <ashl> i don't believe we've met :P
22:57:12 <Taneb> I shouldn't expect so
22:57:17 <Taneb> There are a lot of people in the world
22:57:56 <ashl> oh, did you mean meet in person
22:58:34 <Taneb> Anyway I will go to bed now
23:01:19 <ashl> boily: what are your coordinates and weigh then
23:04:08 <boily> coördinates: FN35EM; weigh: about 160 lbs.
23:04:26 <boily> (I gained weight since... I should drop the weekly poutine.)
23:08:43 <boily> yup. and the weird part of it.
23:09:21 <ashl> you mean the french part?
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23:11:20 <\oren\> how can my friend's brand new 8gb ram, 64-bit laptop have worse performance than my 2006 laptop?!?!?!?
23:11:45 <\oren\> windws 8 is utter fail
23:17:49 * boily lightly mapoles ashl
23:18:17 <boily> do you happen to speak French? your accents are strangely purposeful.
23:22:21 <oerjan> Pârlëz-võús fràn darn i don't know how to make a cedille
23:22:46 <ashl> do you speak any french? or just québécois :)
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23:23:07 * oerjan puts on goggles for better mapole view
23:23:40 <ashl> i don't know what that means
23:23:46 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
23:23:57 <boily> ashl: it's a maple pole. a mapole.
23:24:15 <oerjan> i cannot fathom why ais523 doesn't think the wisdom/ isn't useful
23:24:23 * boily mapoles oerjan with elegance
23:25:11 <boily> the infamous nasal-vowels-sentence.
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23:26:33 <oerjan> what's mapole in québécois anyway
23:33:00 <oerjan> that _could_ be a norwegian word, but i can find no use that isn't a typo.
23:33:13 <oerjan> a rather unlikely one, mind
23:35:58 <boily> everything is a Norwegian word in disguise.
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23:59:45 <boily> helloppavilion[1]!
00:04:14 <tswett> Which convex 38-hedron, with only triangular and quadrilateral faces, has the smallest number of symmetry orbits for its faces, besides the 19-gonal bipyramid?
00:15:05 <tswett> Y'see, I'm thinking of ways to make a d38.
00:15:38 <tswett> This is definitely the leading contender for the shape: http://www-wales.ch.cam.ac.uk/~wales/CCD/Thomson/gif/38.gif
00:16:58 <tswett> But that consists entirely of hexagons and pentagons. I'd like a shape that has faces with fewer edges, while still having few face symmetry orbits.
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00:19:15 <boily> tswellott. you'd like to build a d38 with only one kind of face?
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00:25:25 <tswett> The only way to do that is by making a top-shaped die. I want a ball-shaped one instead, so I'll have to settle for having multiple kinds of faces.
00:32:31 <tswett> Let's see. I want to come up with a 38-hedron which is as symmetrical as possible and has as few vertices as possible.
00:32:59 <tswett> I find the dual problem easier to visualize: coming up with a polyhedron with 38 vertices, which is as symmetrical as possible and has as few faces as possible.
00:34:17 <tswett> I should probably start by figuring out what kind of symmetry I want.
00:42:50 <tswett> It must be ball-shaped.
00:42:54 <hppavilion[1]> Is this just a thought experiment or does it have a practical application
00:42:58 <\oren\> Why use dice at all? use a RNG
00:43:43 <\oren\> because someone else already registered the nick oren
00:43:56 -!- \oren\ has changed nick to oren.
00:44:08 <hppavilion[1]> You could always use a pyramid-shaped die with a rounded bottom :P
00:44:13 <oren> Well they aren't logged in right now whoever they are
00:44:45 <hppavilion[1]> Quick, oren! Build a machine with the soul purpose of cracking IRC NickServ passwords!
00:45:54 <tswett> The practical application is that it will be impressive.
00:46:31 <hppavilion[1]> And to you need to geometrically prove that it is the optimal die?
00:47:15 <Hoolootwo> take a sphere, and cut 38 faces evenly distributed along a great circle. It will roll until it lands on one
00:47:47 <oren> I ahve played D&D exactly twice
00:48:13 <hppavilion[1]> Hoolootwo: And if you make the sides triangles, that gives you a total of...
00:48:23 * hppavilion[1] mumbles to himself and messes with his hands for a moment
00:49:09 <tswett> It doesn't need to be optimal, but I want it to be pretty good.
00:49:18 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming a sphere has 1 as opposed to infinitely many as a layman might think
00:49:31 <tswett> The number of vertices of a sphere?
00:49:42 <Hoolootwo> it really depends on what you classify as optimal
00:49:53 <tswett> Hmm... yes, I think I'd say a sphere has one vertex, no edges, and one face.
00:50:21 <tswett> Well, I guess you could either demand that there be a vertex or not.
00:50:24 <Hoolootwo> for the purposes of dice, it has none of those features
00:50:25 <hppavilion[1]> What's a smart, creative, programmer with an enthusiasm for strangeness gotta do to keep his standard a' livin' now-a-days
00:50:58 <tswett> Wait, lemme think about that sphere thing.
00:51:20 <tswett> What's that formula. Edges = vertices + faces + 2?
00:51:36 <tswett> No, how about edges = vertices + faces - 2?
00:52:03 * hppavilion[1] picks up his magic, perfect sphere from beside his bed and investigates it
00:52:23 <tswett> Now, I think a sphere definitely has no edges and one face. So the formula would be 0 = vertices + 1 - 2.
00:52:41 <tswett> One vertex, if you want a sphere to be like a polyhedron.
00:52:44 <Hoolootwo> well it depends on what you call a face
00:53:00 <Hoolootwo> I would classify round things as not faces
00:53:10 <Hoolootwo> because dice aren't supposed to land on round things
00:53:41 <tswett> Anyway, what was I doing.
00:54:15 <tswett> Apparently this shape has 38 vertices: http://www-wales.ch.cam.ac.uk/~wales/CCD/Thomson/gif/21.gif
00:54:20 <hppavilion[1]> I believe you were attempting to square the circle
00:54:26 <tswett> Well... it's likely to have 38 vertices.
00:54:53 <tswett> Of course, doubling the cube has a much lower impossibility level than squaring the circle.
00:55:44 <hppavilion[1]> And you were planning to finish trisecting the angle in the morning
00:55:45 <tswett> But I can't see the entire shape at the link there.
00:56:32 <tswett> Looking at the shape and extrapolating, it seems like it has eight hexagons and twelve pentagons.
00:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> Then, of course, dealing with cubes again, you were going to octuple one
00:56:44 <tswett> But that's only 20 faces. It definitely has 21 faces, so there must be an extra face somewhere.
00:57:21 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, even you doubted the possiblity of that
00:58:02 <tswett> Maybe one of the edges is replaced with a quadrilateral. (Rectangle, even.)
00:58:05 <Hoolootwo> is the information available to construct that gif?
00:58:39 <tswett> Yeah. Got something that'll render an XYZ file?
00:59:12 <tswett> The shape-it-seems-to-be has 20 faces and 36 vertices. Replacing an edge with a quadrilateral will turn that into 21 faces and 38 vertices.
00:59:25 <boily> tswett: http://threejs.org/editor/
00:59:49 <tswett> boily: will that take XYZ files?
01:00:03 <boily> it doesn't? bleh :/
01:01:41 <tswett> Let's see. Maybe I can have a dual polyhedron consisting entirely of pentagons, hexagons, and vertices with exactly 3 edges.
01:02:33 <boily> hppavilion[1]: what kind of unholy file extension is that?
01:02:51 <oerjan> oren: Last seen : Sep 01 08:19:40 2014 (49w 5d 16h ago)
01:02:54 <tswett> 38 vertices means 57 edges, so... 57 = 38 + faces - 2, so faces = 57 - 38 + 2, or... 21?
01:03:00 <tswett> 9 hexagons, 12 pentagons?
01:03:02 <oerjan> you can take over that nick if you want
01:03:12 <tswett> Hmm. That could be workable.
01:03:21 <oerjan> that's _way_ over the expiry limit
01:03:42 <hppavilion[1]> The Catholic Church's standard file extensions consist of a CJK character, an Emoji, and a 8x8 px 4-frame GIF file
01:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> The time duration of the GIF matters to the file extension
01:05:21 <Hoolootwo> hmm I'm not even sure that file contains the edges
01:06:07 <tswett> You'd have to add those manually.
01:06:11 <tswett> Or add those automatically, if you can.
01:06:39 <hppavilion[1]> So one of the things I'm working on is a program to do geometry for people
01:06:41 <boily> Holy fungot in the Heavenly Bit Bucket, please have mercy on hppavilion[1]'s soul, amen(1).
01:06:41 <fungot> boily: fnord fnord fnord. fnord
01:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to add an easter egg where if you enter some code, it starts doing Sacred Geometry to troll the New Agers?
01:07:57 <tswett> I might be able to make this thing work, here. If I want 3-fold rotational symmetry, I can do that by putting vertices at the poles. Then I'll have 3 lunes, each containing 3 hexagons and 4 pentagons.
01:08:56 <tswett> I could also have symmetry across the equator, meaning I have 6 half-lunes, each containing 1.5 hexagons and 2 pentagons.
01:09:40 <boily> hppavilion[1]: please note that fungot is sentient enough by itself to evolve that feature. fnord.
01:09:40 <fungot> boily: true geeks will also celebrate 2048, of course
01:12:12 <hppavilion[1]> Just thinking about implementing that program gives me a headache
01:13:46 <Hoolootwo> seems like that would be better than whatever that thing was
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01:14:33 <tswett> Hoolootwo: ...dude, that's wonderful.
01:15:12 <tswett> It's frickin' perfect.
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01:21:52 <boily> why would snubbing cubes be useful? aren't we meant to like polyhedra, instead of rejecting them?
01:26:05 <tswett> I am very enthusiastic about this snub cube.
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02:32:42 <oren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongated_pentagonal_gyrocupolarotunda
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02:44:34 <oren> Is it correct to say that every fair die should be the dual to a uniform polyhedron?
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02:47:03 <oren> I think because the above implies that the centres of each face are sort of equally spaced
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03:12:48 <zzo38> I play and record Dungeons&Dragons game. But, the d10 dice is not the Platonic solid
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03:19:12 <zzo38> I have added the solo channel mode into playmod but will then add other stuff too such as support for .XI files
03:26:08 <oren> the d10 is the dual to the 10-antiprism
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10:14:00 <int-e> why does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finitary_operation refer to "Garbage in, garbage out"...
10:17:51 <ashl> i... have no idea
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15:17:03 <ashl> i can't believe how much memory it takes to link the chromium binary
15:28:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43738&oldid=43398 * Rdebath * (+13883) Add whitespace
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17:29:07 <tswett> oren_: I think fair dice only have to be dual to a vertex-transitive polyhedron, i.e. fair dice have to be face-transitive.
17:32:08 <Phantom__Hoover> i think henry segerman has a series of videos where he shows every possible face-transitive die
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17:58:40 <oren_> tswett: Hmmm... yah that makes sense
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18:38:17 <oren> idea: a wargame where the game world is a poincare disk
18:40:03 <oren> er, i guess the game world is a hyperbolic plane. the VIEW on the game world is a poincare disk
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19:49:45 <quintopia> oren: so its hyperrogue but an RTS instead?
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20:07:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Sacchan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43739&oldid=39904 * Sacchan * (-89)
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20:28:56 <oerjan> <oren> idea: a wargame where the game world is a poincare disk <-- hm, exponentially growing empires...
20:31:30 <Phantom__Hoover> there's no native equivalent of cartesian coordinates, after all
20:32:51 <oerjan> hm are there fractal - no, _reverse_ fractal ones?
20:33:05 <oren> use 3d points on a hyperboloid?
20:33:23 <oerjan> oh right, there's embeddings into R^3
20:34:35 <oerjan> well true, e.g. the poincare disk mentioned
20:34:40 <Taneb> Windows on SSD and Linux on HDD or other way round
20:35:04 <Phantom__Hoover> the hyperboloid method works pretty well i guess in that you have an easy metric to compute
20:35:19 <coppro> Taneb: depends, what are you using them for?
20:35:27 <coppro> or why not both on one?
20:36:42 <Taneb> coppro, Windows mostly for gaming and when I need to run Windows only software, Linux for browsing internet and programming
20:36:47 <oren> both OS on ssd, put your mutable data on the HDD
20:38:07 <oren> the good thing about the hyperboloid model is you can use the lorentz transforms
20:38:53 <coppro> Taneb: also probably your best bet
20:39:10 <coppro> you can avoid a lot of futzing with bootloaders if so
20:39:14 <Taneb> Second hand machine
20:39:32 <Taneb> https://gist.github.com/alanbriolat/e2e3e5f4969840d18bae is some info if it helps
20:41:36 <Taneb> What counts a mutable data
20:41:51 <fizzie> The spec tab of the motherboard link on that page does say "ASUS UEFI BIOS EZ Mode featuring friendly graphics user interface".
20:42:02 <Taneb> So I guess I have UEFI
20:42:37 <fizzie> You'll probably need to fiddle around in the "BIOS" setup page to turn it on.
20:43:27 <zzo38> A command such as echo $'#EXTENDED\n#DIVISIONS 32\n@0="COSMO.xi"\nA @0c1\n' | amigamml | playmod f=44100 c=1 b=16 v=190 | aplay -r 44100 -c 1 -t raw -f S16_LE can be used to play back a .XI file, although I try to make playmod to directly play back .XI file too if possible
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20:44:26 <zzo38> Although currently it does not work.
20:44:51 <zzo38> (I mean playmod currently does not play back .XI file; the long piped command does work, but it requires AmigaMML, clearly)
20:45:14 <fizzie> And when I was last installing a Windows, it was kind of picky about what sort of installation media you could do an UEFI install from.
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20:47:08 <fizzie> I suppose if you can boot whatever you're trying to install it from with the boot settings set to "UEFI only", it's likely to work.
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22:13:55 * Sgeo wonders if the Prismata campaign has improved/become more tutorially lately
22:17:23 <shachaf> You already know how to play, don't know?
22:18:27 <Sgeo> I know the mechanics, or did. Not really how to play well
22:20:13 <shachaf> We should jam when I get back home.
22:20:36 <Sgeo> I haven't played in a long time, I'm sure you only improved. I think we can already declare you the winner
22:21:10 <shachaf> I only play against the computer.
22:38:44 <Sgeo> Not if it takes more than 20 minutes, I usually head out to eat 7 eastern
22:38:57 <shachaf> We can set it to a quick clock.
22:39:58 <Sgeo> Which will make me lose even harder, but we can play again after I eat
22:41:17 <shachaf> OK, I'll admit that opening move was suboptimal.
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22:50:45 <Sgeo> I was horrible
22:57:11 <zzo38> Do you like this example of how amigamml and playmod programs are working? I don't know of any similar programs for dealing with tracker music formats!
22:57:20 <shachaf> Sgeo: Usually people start out by building something that generates gold.
22:57:32 <shachaf> I suppose you consider yourself exempt.
22:58:11 <Sgeo> shachaf, engineers help build drones to generate gold, or did you mean something else?
22:58:30 <shachaf> Well, your first turn you just clicked all your drones and did nothing.
22:58:42 <shachaf> Usually you would QDD or something.
22:59:11 <Sgeo> shachaf, I consider myself as having barely remembered a thing
22:59:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tripl3dogdare * New user account
22:59:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43740 * Tripl3dogdare * (+4172) Created page with "'''MagiStack''' is a [[stack]]-based [[esoteric programming language]] created by Connor Scialdone. It is based loosely on Unefunge (a one-dimensional offshoot of [[Befunge]])..."
22:59:54 <shachaf> I was really just talking about your name, though.
23:03:11 <Sgeo> I don't get it
23:08:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43741&oldid=43740 * Tripl3dogdare * (+39)
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23:27:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43742&oldid=43741 * Tripl3dogdare * (+110)
23:28:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43743&oldid=43736 * Tripl3dogdare * (+16) /* M */
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23:42:47 <izabera> https://github.com/lukego/blog cool idea
23:49:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lhooq]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43744&oldid=36245 * Tripl3dogdare * (+28)
23:49:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lhooq]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43745&oldid=43744 * Tripl3dogdare * (+2)
23:49:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lhooq]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43746&oldid=43745 * Tripl3dogdare * (-30)
23:55:56 <HackEgo> 1137) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
23:56:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43747&oldid=43742 * Tripl3dogdare * (-7)
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00:35:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43748&oldid=39856 * 69.165.212.148 * (+787)
00:36:59 <doesthiswork> I don't have ꙮ in my font but it is probably a nasal ingressive voiceless velar trill
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00:56:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43749&oldid=43748 * 69.165.212.148 * (+238)
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01:01:49 * boily pokes coppro in the haneman
01:06:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43750&oldid=43749 * 69.165.212.148 * (+338)
01:10:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hyperfunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43751&oldid=43750 * 69.165.212.148 * (-7)
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01:11:57 <madbr> oh man, I've created a monster
01:12:01 <madbr> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hyperfunge
01:12:11 <madbr> hyperbolic geometry version of befunge
01:12:18 <madbr> it's aboslutely hideous :D
01:13:21 <ais523> a hyperbolic geometry befunge sounds excellently eso :-)
01:14:24 <ais523> I'm not sure I understand the directions in which you can execute code, though
01:14:41 <ais523> a picture would be helpful (that projects onto a euclidean space via the use of scaling)
01:16:44 <boily> madbr: hey! long time no see!
01:17:06 <boily> btw, you have no right creating hyperbolic esolangs on Sundays late at night.
01:19:04 <madbr> true, it would need a picture
01:19:31 <madbr> and yeah well... these things happen :o
01:20:04 <coppro> boily: ow that was rude
01:21:16 <madbr> I kinda wanted to incorporate the expansion properties of hyperbolic space into the language more but just gave up :D
01:23:11 <boily> we definitely need some kind of picture/example/synæsthetic experience for that.
01:23:44 <madbr> ok but not on sunday late at night :D
01:24:52 <boily> coppro: sorry. I only got tenpai on a closed chinitsu today. I couldn't achieve outrageousness.
01:27:27 <madbr> one idea I've had would've been to have a program with an infinitely tiled portion
01:28:15 <madbr> to store data independently from the stack you'd use the index of the tile respective to the non-tiled portion
01:30:11 <Phantom__Hoover> i feel like a square tiling would be better than a pentagonal one?
01:31:16 <Phantom__Hoover> you could translate befunge semantics a lot more naturally then
01:33:11 <mauris> madbr, is this the grid: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/44/Uniform_tiling_552-t1.png
01:34:21 <coppro> boily: it's ok. I haven't been doing well since that game
01:37:19 <mauris> i don't see where to draw the middle line
01:37:45 <madbr> I'm not sure it's the best grid for a hyperbolic fungeroid but I like the pentagonal thing going on
01:38:13 <madbr> mauris : the line at the left of the center pentagon looks like it'd work
01:39:16 <Phantom__Hoover> the problem with using pentagons is that you have no notion of opposite sides so you can't define a line on the tiling
01:40:07 <madbr> I guess it's more an edge
01:40:48 <madbr> it also has the catch that there are really two versions of each of the 5 directions you can move in
01:40:54 <Phantom__Hoover> if you're following an edge then that's the same as using the square tiling
01:41:59 <mauris> i feel like "sprialing out from the center" would be a more natural way to store the instructions?
01:42:01 <madbr> like, moving leftwards, you can either move leftwards in a way that undoes a right-up move, or in a way that undoes a right-down move...
01:42:23 <madbr> leading to the same pentagon except the IP is not in the same orientation
01:42:45 <madbr> mauris : yeah that's the other option
01:42:58 <madbr> mauris : or a sierpinsky type grid
01:45:15 <madbr> you can either start with a middle point (going to 5 edges and 5 corners), or a central equator with edges on both sides (the solution here), or a line of pentagons each with 1 edge leading downwards and 2 edges 1 corner upwards
01:47:21 <madbr> or a middle corner touching 4 pentagons
01:47:28 <mauris> you should draw some crude pictures about how the PC moves, mapping 1abcXYZdefghUVW etc.
01:47:50 <madbr> sure but tonight I can't be bothered :3
01:48:00 <mauris> maybe i have weak hyperbolic geometry skillz but this is basically impossible to read and imagine :(
01:48:20 <madbr> no hyperbolic geometry is impossible for everybody :o
01:48:27 <madbr> which is the point actually
01:49:25 <mauris> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Hi%5Cn help, i'm clicking through random pages and finding horrible languages
01:51:00 <boily> also, goodrjanight!
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01:51:47 <izabera> how did you even find that
01:52:54 <ais523> izabera: "random page", probably
01:53:07 <ais523> I invented the BF Derivative Random Page Game
01:53:14 <ais523> but stopped playing it because it was too depressing
01:53:35 <ais523> (the rules: keep pressing Random Page until you find a language you designed, your score is minus the number of BF derivatives you find on the way)
01:54:21 <ais523> hmm, Hi\n isn't as bad as some I've seen
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01:54:33 <ais523> HQ9+ does similar space better, though, I think
01:54:59 <ais523> that language appears to have been invented independently, though, and does one of HQ9+'s jokes better while missing the others
01:56:44 <ais523> oh dear, I've been clicking on random pages
01:56:58 <ais523> and this BF derivative is probably the second-worst I've seen: http://esolangs.org/wiki/And_then
01:57:10 <ais523> (the worst involved doing something that prevented loops working)
01:58:02 <mauris> this is certainly something
01:58:41 <ais523> really there's absolutely no reason for it to be based on brainfuck
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02:12:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43752&oldid=43747 * Tripl3dogdare * (+0)
02:17:02 <mauris> i found an actually good language and wrote an interpreter!
02:19:52 <mauris> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimum -> http://lpaste.net/138992
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02:20:31 <ais523> I like that use of absurd
02:21:08 <mauris> yes, especially absurd :: Void -> IO ()!
02:21:50 <mauris> and of course the parser failing for all finite strings. i'm proud
02:23:47 <madbr> I still have to figure out how to garbage collect one particularly crazy language I've come up with
02:24:18 <ais523> madbr: does the behaviour of the garbage collector change the language semantics?
02:25:12 <madbr> hmm, only if it changes which programs leak and which ones dont
02:25:17 <madbr> which... I think it does
02:25:42 <ais523> madbr: oh, my suggestion was going to be "just leak and use boehm-gc" if it doesn't change the semantics
02:25:59 <ais523> there are definitely languages, like Perl, where the GC behaviour is observable from inside the language itself though
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02:27:23 <madbr> the problem is that since the already computed data is immutable, computation must generate ever more data
02:27:49 <madbr> and it's hard to define when previously computed data becomes irrelevant and can be dumped
02:28:19 <oerjan> i don't like that eval.
02:29:21 <madbr> though I guess that due to the semantics of the language it can regenerate data that it dumped
02:29:31 <madbr> if it turns out it really needed it
02:29:38 <mauris> oerjan: how would you have written it?
02:30:17 <Jafet> ais523: referring to http://www.nntp.perl.org/group/perl.golf/2002/07/msg1289.html?
02:31:03 <ais523> Jafet: was actually refering to Scalar::Util::weaken; the description of Scalar::Util is as a place to put things that are effectively part of the base language, but aren't used enough to be in the language core
02:31:47 <ais523> but that thing is genius :-)
02:31:53 <ais523> pity it doesn't work on graphs with loops in
02:33:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimum]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43753&oldid=13038 * Nooodl * (+657)
02:34:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Minimum]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43754&oldid=43753 * Nooodl * (+18) add a header for this i guess
02:40:48 <madbr> I guess it could just randomly dump data when reaching the data limit
02:41:12 <madbr> which means that with a real randomness source it would have to reach the solution...EVENTUALLY :3
02:43:48 <Jafet> On the other hand, it is also simultaneously possible that it never reaches the solution
02:44:49 <madbr> also I think the execution time would grow exponentially with each extra byte over the gc limit :o
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02:49:37 <oerjan> mauris: http://lpaste.net/138992#a138993
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03:38:27 <Wright> is there a nickname for a group of three binary bits? I thought it was 'trit' but that's apparently a single ternary digit
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03:39:02 <Wright> Ooh, wikipedia says it's a triad or triade
03:44:49 <myname> trit doesn't make sense. a bit would need to be two digits then
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03:48:14 <madbr> "3/8ths of a byte"
03:48:58 <madbr> it's not a very popular bit grouping due to not fitting very well in bytes
03:49:52 <myname> octal is not very popular, either
03:53:34 <madbr> you could call it an "octal-digit"
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04:16:50 <oren> octet, therefore tertet.
04:17:54 <oren> quatet would be 4 bits or one hex digit
04:18:41 <oren> pentet is one base 32 digit. sextet is one base64 digit
04:18:59 <oren> s/quatet/quartet/
04:19:33 <zzo38> I have used "nybble" before to mean one hex digit or four bits, this is also sometimes used elsewhere.
04:20:35 <zzo38> I use "octet" generally when defining a VM or something else that has memory cells larger than eight bits and are addressable by the longer cells instead of by octets.
04:20:49 <zzo38> So, that mean "octet" always means 8-bits regardless of the size of memory cells
04:23:30 <oren> yeah. and then we can also use hexdecet for unambigously a 16 bit word
04:24:08 <oren> bitrigintet is 32 bits
04:25:23 <oren> quattrisexagintet is a 64 bit unit
04:27:06 <oren> centioctovigintet is 128 bits
04:53:35 <ais523> myname: you feel the need to say that in /this/ channel? :-D
04:56:50 <oren> what's thon thon?
04:58:07 <myname> ais523: it's best suited here, isn't it?
05:00:37 <|f`-`|f> http://i.4cdn.org/wsg/1439678080638.webm
05:00:54 <|f`-`|f> Turn yourselves in peacefully terrorists
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05:10:58 <zzo38> The description of e-TeX says they added classes of marks since it seem like a good idea; however I have been able to do classes of marks without e-TeX, using only standard TeX operations.
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05:51:17 <ashl> is that chris morris
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06:02:40 <izabera> http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=275318 this is mildly interesting but not enough to pay 15$, can someone provide it for free? >.>
06:03:08 <zzo38> What is that one about?
06:03:53 <zzo38> I do not have a copy to provide for free anyways (as far as I know)
06:04:17 <Hoolootwo> is that English the natural language or English the computer language?
06:04:28 <izabera> i believe the natural language
06:04:57 <Hoolootwo> yeah natural language according to the references
06:06:16 <ais523> izabera: it's probably a bad idea to ask people to pirate academic papers for you, after what happened to aaron schwartz
06:06:37 <ais523> I'd recommend checking the author's/authors' website, though
06:06:47 <Hoolootwo> it's possible that someone is a part of the ACM
06:07:07 <ais523> often it has a preprint (basically, the same paper before proofreading/peer review), which the author's allowed to post publicly
06:07:11 <Hoolootwo> and has the ability to download copies and share maybe one copy, I haven't read any fine text but I could see that
06:07:45 <ais523> I can't remember how draconian the ACM is
06:08:03 <ais523> one of the major places has a guest access thing where you can look at (but not download) something like four papers per month
06:09:47 <Hoolootwo> go to 'Request Permissions' maybe, it appears as if that's for non-members
06:14:16 <Jafet> Actually, what happened to Schwartz was controversial because people are used to pirating academic papers.
06:14:45 <Jafet> This particular paper should be worth the $15 though. That's only $5 per page!
06:15:09 <izabera> that's 5$ per page more than what i'm going to spend <.<
06:16:51 <ais523> the thing that gets me about academic paper charging is that the charge for individual papers is always utterly overblown
06:16:59 <Jafet> “© 1998 ACM l-58113-030-9/98/0004 $3.50”
06:17:04 <ais523> if they price were reduced, there's a chance that people might actually spend it sometimes
06:17:21 <ais523> also the ACM's papers always have a price on the copyright line IIRC, and I have no idea what it refers to
06:23:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43755 * 50.170.122.255 * (+192) Created page with "??? is an esoteric programming language created by Stack Exchange users Alex A. and BrainSteel. It uses the punctuation within a literary work to perform operations akin to th..."
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06:24:43 <Jafet> We need a separate wiki to catalogue the rapidly developing field of brainfuck derivatives
06:28:02 <Sgeo> How about a brainfuck derivative with the exact syntax and semantics of Python
06:30:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43756&oldid=43755 * 50.170.122.255 * (+173)
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06:33:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43757&oldid=43756 * 50.170.122.255 * (+10)
06:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43758&oldid=43752 * Rdebath * (+72) Probably NOT TC
06:34:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43759&oldid=43758 * Rdebath * (+33)
06:40:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43760&oldid=43759 * Rdebath * (+5) Humm, OTOH branching doesn't look good enough for a PDA; is it ?
06:51:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43761&oldid=43757 * Rdebath * (+112) Definitely not TC
06:52:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43762&oldid=43761 * 50.170.122.255 * (+1155)
06:56:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43763&oldid=43762 * 50.170.122.255 * (+35)
07:05:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:???]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43764 * Martin Büttner * (+105) Created page with ""it is not Turing complete due to the loss of nested loops." I don't see why you can't have nested loops."
07:05:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43765&oldid=43764 * Martin Büttner * (+106)
07:06:42 <ais523> fwiw I agree with the talk page post
07:07:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43766&oldid=43765 * Ais523 * (+310) agree
07:09:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43767&oldid=43766 * Martin Büttner * (+193)
07:10:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43768&oldid=43763 * Ais523 * (+114) is TC; clarify what ' does
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07:59:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43769&oldid=43767 * Rdebath * (+250)
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08:05:49 <ais523> could someone here on Linux > 3.8 run "unshare -Ur true" as not-root and let me know if it produces an error? (this relates to weboflies 2)
08:06:40 <ais523> or, really, anywhere, but I thought I'd ask here because this channel a) is often responsive to bizarre requests, and b) is vaguely aware of weboflies
08:07:12 <izabera> unshare: unshare failed: Invalid argument
08:07:42 <izabera> with unshare from util-linux 2.26.2
08:08:02 <ais523> I'm confused, because that is a /different/ error from the one I'm getting
08:08:21 <ais523> and yet it should succeed, given that that's the simplest possible valid use of the -r option
08:08:30 <ais523> the reason I ask is that I suspect there might be a kernel bug
08:08:55 <ais523> unshare: write failed /proc/self/gid_map: Operation not permitted
08:09:15 <ais523> izabera: oh, probably you have unshare compiled out in your kernel
08:09:30 <ais523> err, unshare user namespaces
08:09:50 <ais523> that'd explain the symptoms you're seeing, it isn't very useful for me to know if the bug's fixed though
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08:12:27 <izabera> i didn't compile my kernel
08:12:36 <izabera> and i honestly don't know much about this
08:13:32 <ais523> fair enough, I wasn't necessarily expecting people to understand what the command did (it is harmless, though)
08:14:01 <ais523> it can be surprising to see what it does without the "true" at the end (which makes it a no-op), if you aren't prepared for it, although it doesn't actually break security
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09:37:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mov]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43770&oldid=43287 * 194.19.70.9 * (+10) mov is not 'esoteric' in any meaning of the word
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10:22:07 <Taneb> Well, I have made progress today
10:24:07 <int-e> `learn Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
10:24:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'progres': Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
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10:47:04 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
10:47:06 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
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10:52:27 <boily> `` sed -i 's/the reals,/the reals, progress,/' wisdom/tanebvention
10:54:11 <Taneb> You know, I ought to be more careful about what I say just in case it becomes a tanebvention
10:55:46 <boily> the way I see it, everything already is a tanebvention. except those things which are explicitely not, therefore they are.
10:58:30 <boily> we're highlighting the most egregious ones, I think. like weetoflakes.
10:58:43 <Taneb> Which is the only one I actually invented
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11:26:44 <int-e> damn, I missed the plural thing
11:27:07 <int-e> `rm wisdom/progres
11:27:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:27:38 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
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12:30:34 <ais523> hmm, now a different set of people is online
12:31:14 <ais523> <ais523> could someone here on Linux > 3.8 run "unshare -Ur true" as not-root and let me know if it produces an error? (this relates to weboflies 2)
12:31:30 <ais523> one person already tried but I think the relevant kernel config option was disabled
12:33:15 <APic> ais523: unshare: unshare failed: Die Operation ist nicht erlaubt
12:33:34 <ais523> hmm, I guess it isn't enabled on your kernel either :-(
12:33:41 <APic> Linux Ant 4.1.0-1-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 4.1.3-1 (2015-08-03) x86_64 GNU/Linux
12:34:59 <ais523> the relevant feature is user namespaces
12:35:12 <ais523> but they seem to be broken with respect to GIDs (UIDs work correctly)
12:35:20 <ais523> either that or both me and unshare(1) are using them incorrectly
12:35:54 <APic> On my UserModeLinux-VM it fails too
12:36:28 <ais523> `run unshare --version
12:36:29 <HackEgo> unshare: unrecognized option '--version' \ \ Usage: \ unshare [options] <program> [args...] \ \ Options: \ -h, --help usage information (this) \ -m, --mount unshare mounts namespace \ -u, --uts unshare UTS namespace (hostname etc) \ -i, --ipc unshare System V IPC namespace \ -n, --net unshare network nam
12:36:38 <ais523> I can believe it would fail in UML
12:36:45 <HackEgo> unshare: invalid option -- 'U' \ \ Usage: \ unshare [options] <program> [args...] \ \ Options: \ -h, --help usage information (this) \ -m, --mount unshare mounts namespace \ -u, --uts unshare UTS namespace (hostname etc) \ -i, --ipc unshare System V IPC namespace \ -n, --net unshare network namespace \
12:36:53 <ais523> oh wow, that's an old version of unshare
12:37:05 <ais523> that doesn't support "--version", for some reason
12:37:11 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
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12:42:15 <Taneb> ais523, I get invalid option U
12:42:25 <Taneb> But mine doesn't have --version either
12:42:33 <Taneb> This is Ubuntu 14.04
12:42:46 <ais523> right, I think that predates Linux 3.8?
12:42:54 <ais523> or at least the matching util-linux release
12:43:09 <ais523> it probably took a while for new Linux functionality to be implemented in util-linux
12:43:46 <ais523> hmm, I hope that distros don't disable user namespaces by default
12:43:50 <ais523> or nobody will be able to run weboflies
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12:44:42 <Taneb> ais523, invalid argument on Arch with kernel 4.0.5-ARCH
12:44:54 <Taneb> What is web o' flies?
12:45:04 <ais523> Taneb: formerly known as the Secret Project
12:45:51 <ais523> could you do "cat /lib/modules/$(uname -r)/build/.config | grep USER_NS"
12:46:21 <ais523> and, umm, it's quite hard to explain what it does, but it involves intercepting system calls and replacing them with different ones
12:46:44 <ProofTechnique> Taneb: http://stealthcatproductions.blogspot.com/2008/11/web-o-flies.html HTHeth
12:47:19 <ais523> ProofTechnique: I doubt it's been discussed much outside #esoteric
12:47:24 <Taneb> ais523, file does not exist
12:47:30 <ais523> I only came here for help with it because it's a) ridiculous, b) hard to explain what you're doing
12:47:41 <Taneb> This is a server I don't control
12:47:45 <ais523> I take it /proc/config.gz doesn't exist either?
12:47:56 <Taneb> No, that does exist
12:48:07 <ais523> zgrep for USER_NS in that, then
12:48:22 <ais523> (the two files should have the same content, just one is usermode and one is kernelmode)
12:48:33 <Taneb> # CONFIG_USER_NS is not set
12:48:40 <ais523> that's the option that I'm trying to test
12:48:48 <ais523> but apparently it's disabled in whatever distro that server's using
12:50:07 <Taneb> I think my laptop (with Ubuntu LTS) has it enabled
12:50:14 <Taneb> Just an old version of unshare
12:50:20 <ais523> I can believe Arch, on the basis that multiple people have reported the same outcome with kernel versions in the 4s
12:52:12 <ais523> so it has to be some rolling-release distro that's widely used
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13:02:28 <int-e> same here with Arch
13:02:46 <ais523> hmm, I guess this is going to be really hard to test then
13:02:56 <ais523> also, I guess unshare(1) isn't widely used
13:03:07 <ais523> I didn't see any relevant results from a web search on the error message
13:03:17 * int-e switched to a kvm host for lambdabot to get namespace support
13:04:14 <int-e> (the evaluation part runs as a seaparate user and with unshare(CLONE_NEWIPC | CLONE_NEWNET | CLONE_NEWNS) )
13:07:09 <ais523> hmm, secure boot may end up preventing people turning all these great kernel features on
13:07:32 <ais523> on the other hand, it may force distros to turn them all on on the basis that people literally can't compile the kernel themself any more
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13:08:21 <int-e> Well, Docker is becoming quite popular and relies on namespace support. Also systemd has plans in that direction, I believe.
13:08:49 <int-e> I'm actually surprised that Arch doesn't enable namespaces by default.
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13:13:11 <int-e> https://bugs.archlinux.org/task/36969?project=1 tells a bit of the story; apparently the namespace feature is still suffering from holes.
13:13:29 <ais523> this does not surprise me
13:13:43 <ais523> being able to run a command as non-root and gain /all/ capabilities is crazy
13:13:50 <ais523> even if most of them don't actually do anything
13:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Vioz- * New user account
13:15:04 <int-e> Oh, I mixed this up. I need namespaces (CONFIG_*_NS), but not for arbitrary users (CONFIG_USER_NS). So never mind.
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13:16:34 <int-e> (lambdabot uses a suid program to do the namespace setup)
13:16:34 <fizzie> ais523: Reports from here: no '-U' in unshare at work desktop (distribution derived from Ubuntu 14.04); "unshare failed: Operation not permitted" on home desktop (Debian something); "unshare failed: Invalid argument" on VPS (Debian 8.1).
13:16:44 <fizzie> Aw, just a little bit late.
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13:17:18 <fizzie> ais523: Reports from here: no '-U' in unshare at work desktop (distribution derived from Ubuntu 14.04); "unshare failed: Operation not permitted" on home desktop (Debian something); "unshare failed: Invalid argument" on VPS (Debian 8.1).
13:17:54 <ais523> huh, that EPERM on unshare is interesting (the second one)
13:18:22 <ais523> must have hit the narrow version range where it was root-only, or the somewhat less narrow range where certain distros restricted it to root only as a mitigation for potential security holes
13:18:35 <ais523> on my Ubuntu 15.04, the unshare works, and setting uid_map works, but setting gid_map doesn't
13:18:45 <ais523> which is so bizarrely asymmetric that it makes me suspect a bug
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13:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43771 * Vioz- * (+218) initial submission.
13:19:55 <fizzie> It's got 4.1.0-1-amd64 installed too, but I haven't had a chance to reboot lately.
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13:28:56 <ais523> aha, I think I found the cause of my problem
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13:29:08 <ais523> https://git.kernel.org/cgit/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux.git/commit/?id=87c31b39abcb6fb6bd7d111200c9627a594bf6a9 talks about "/proc/self/setgroups" which I've never heard of
13:29:25 <ais523> and it isn't documented
13:29:29 <ais523> but it seems very relevant
13:29:36 <ais523> also I love the security hole it's there to work around
13:30:07 <ais523> (you can have group permission lower than other permission on a file, thus dropping group membership via gid_map can give you higher perms on a file)
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13:36:47 <ais523> drwxrwxr-x 4 root root 4096 Aug 16 16:04 test
13:37:15 <ais523> int-e: thanks for the bug report link, I found out what I was missing by chasing links from there
13:37:23 <ais523> the solution is to write "deny" to /proc/self/setgroups
13:38:52 <ais523> and here it is, my unshare -mUr replacement: http://sprunge.us/GRST
13:42:01 <Taneb> Hang on, what have you done
13:42:32 <ais523> Taneb: have you tried running it yet?
13:43:29 <ais523> it's not weboflies itself, just a test file to play around with some of the features it needs
13:43:32 <ais523> and it doesn't need root
13:44:18 <ais523> what it does is /gives/ you root, but a restricted sort of root that isn't actually able to do anything malicious (in theory)
13:46:06 <ais523> I've been trying to mount filesystems using it
13:46:19 <ais523> but loop mounts don't work because I can't read or write any of the loop devices
13:46:27 <ais523> bind mounts work, mounting a new tmpfs works
13:46:37 <ais523> mounting a physical block device doesn't work for obvious reasons
13:48:10 <fizzie> I think I did run across some context where group permissions were being used to "exclude" a group (as in, more bits for other than group), but it seemed highly nonstandard.
13:49:59 <ais523> cygwin has an article about implementing permissions like that on Windows
13:50:23 <ais523> it turns out that it's possible, but the configuration you have to use is so unusual that even just viewing the permissions in Explorer changes them to something semantically different
13:50:37 <fizzie> I think you linked to it before.
13:51:22 <ais523> I can't remember where it is though
13:51:45 <ais523> probably here?: http://cygwin.com/cygwin-ug-net/ntsec.html
13:52:05 <fizzie> Under the "File permissions" heading.
13:53:09 <Taneb> ais523, how risky is this exploit?
13:53:56 <ais523> Taneb: it's not an exploit, it's an intended feature
13:54:25 <Taneb> Being able to become root is an intended feature?
13:54:25 <ais523> although based on the discussion in this channel, it's one with more security holes in than you'd expect from a typical intended Linux feature
13:55:15 <ais523> because you can't do anything you couldn't do with your own account
13:55:26 <ais523> at least, shouldn't be able to
13:55:50 <ais523> also you can't interact with any user /but/ root (which is secretly your own account), e.g. su won't work
13:56:09 <Taneb> So it just makes me look like root or something?
13:56:55 <ais523> it's sort-of like kernel fakeroot
13:57:09 <ais523> however it does let you do various things you can't normally do as a user, that are meant to be safe when sandboxed
13:57:57 <Taneb> Can I chroot to a directory I can't otherwise access?
13:58:12 <fizzie> ais523: Out of curiosity, if you "rootify" yourself like that, can you connect to a Unix domain socket in the non-unshared network namespace, and if you can, what would using SO_PASSCRED/SCM_CREDENTIALS report to the other end?
13:58:39 <ais523> fizzie: I remember reading the answer to this but can't remember what it was
13:58:42 <ais523> let me try to find it again
13:59:20 <ais523> fizzie: you can, the only UID you can send is root (because it's the only one you can access), and the other end sees your own actual UID
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14:04:07 <ais523> Taneb: anyway, you are getting just a tiny taste of what WEB OF LIES does
14:04:22 <ais523> basically, imagine this sort of shenanigans going on except for everything
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14:05:10 <Taneb> So, nothing is the user it seems it is, or something?
14:05:25 <ais523> name had to come from somewhere
14:05:36 <ais523> but the hope is that everything the user sees is actually internally consistent
14:06:44 <ais523> I should probably not play around with nsfakeroot as much as I do
14:06:59 <ais523> maybe some day I'll /actually/ have root but mistake it for just another nsfakeroot
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14:10:32 <Jafet> That's when you wake up from the dream into another dream
14:10:40 <fizzie> What's Debian's fakeroot built on, LD_PRELOAD trickery on the syscall wrappers?
14:11:04 <ais523> fizzie: yes, it's pretty fragile
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16:06:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43772&oldid=43771 * 72.38.29.19 * (+1632) added commands for math function.
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16:07:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43773&oldid=43772 * Vioz- * (+0) /* Overview */
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16:30:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43774&oldid=43773 * Vioz- * (+1838) /* Overview */
16:32:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43775&oldid=43774 * Vioz- * (+98)
16:33:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43776&oldid=43775 * Vioz- * (+119) /* Overview */
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17:10:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43777&oldid=43760 * Tripl3dogdare * (+910)
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17:14:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43778&oldid=43777 * Tripl3dogdare * (+177)
17:15:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43779&oldid=43778 * Tripl3dogdare * (-46)
17:38:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43780&oldid=43779 * Tripl3dogdare * (-5)
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18:28:07 <tswett> The way I'm writing this operating system kernel, it'll allow you to do something hilarious.
18:28:17 <tswett> So, right now I'm implementing dynamic memory allocation.
18:29:02 <tswett> Dynamic memory allocators are going to be objects. You could, in principle, have a bunch of them, each with its own heap.
18:29:37 <tswett> In practice, I don't see needing more than one.
18:30:27 <tswett> Memory that's been allocated isn't actually associated with the heap any more, in any way.
18:30:58 <tswett> And what this means is that if you have multiple dynamic memory allocators, you can allocate memory from one and "free" the memory using another one.
18:31:12 <tswett> The result is that this section of memory will actually be moved between the heaps.
18:32:57 <tswett> It's like a library system that doesn't care where you return books.
18:33:21 <tswett> And libraries gain and lose books when people return them to different libraries.
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19:52:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43781&oldid=43776 * Vioz- * (+4096)
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20:59:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * DigitalCannon * New user account
21:03:01 <oerjan> the wiki seems to be under attack
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21:17:23 <oerjan> fizzie: with a cannon hth
21:18:57 <oerjan> edwardk: i think you would be the person to know the answer to this http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32059754/are-there-useful-applications-for-the-divisible-type-class
21:22:49 <oerjan> hm Control.Lens doesn't seem to use it, what is this?
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21:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Niblet]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43782 * DigitalCannon * (+3297) Created page with "'''niblet''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] where nibbles are used to store data. Cat: ,<.<[[ Hello World: ++++<<<<v< ---<<<v<. -<v< ----<<<<v<. ----<<<<<v<..."
21:28:20 <edwardk> oerjan: bookmarked to answer
21:28:25 <edwardk> oerjan: discrimination uses it heavily
21:29:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43783&oldid=43743 * DigitalCannon * (+13)
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21:40:36 <oerjan> edwardk: hm the new fancy hackage source browsing seems to break anchors http://hackage.haskell.org/package/discrimination-0.1/docs/src/Data-Discrimination-Grouping.html#Grouping
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21:43:32 <edwardk> oerjan: you should mention that to hvr
21:43:44 <edwardk> i think he was responsible in some way for the hackage source browsing
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21:50:07 <fizzie> oerjan: That's pretty strange, the anchor on the "class Grouping a ..." line is <a name="Group"> -- the same as for "newtype Group", so it's there twice.
21:51:03 <fizzie> (Ditto for "class Grouping1".)
21:51:31 <oerjan> there was a github issue about duplicated anchors, maybe this is known then.
21:52:43 <oerjan> except it was supposed to be fixed before that package was uploaded
21:53:38 <fizzie> If you mean https://github.com/haskell/hackage-server/issues/319 that seems to talk only about the line number anchors.
21:54:01 * oerjan doesn't have a github account.
21:54:15 <fizzie> The hscolour 1.21 fix it mentions just says "ensure that line-number anchors do not reset in literate code fragments".
21:54:31 <fizzie> But there's a 1.23 change "bugfix for anchor-generation for instance decls".
21:55:30 <fizzie> It's not exactly an instance declaration, though, so maybe that's not related.
21:56:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43784&oldid=43780 * Tripl3dogdare * (+103) /* Hello, world! */
21:56:45 <fizzie> If you're feeling really enthusiastic, maybe you could run the source through the newest hscolour and see if it's fixed or not.
21:57:18 <fizzie> That's reasonable. I wouldn't, either.
21:58:11 <oerjan> oh hscolour uses darcs, no wonder i couldn't find it
22:02:03 <oerjan> fizzie: that hscolour version is also older than the discrimination version
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22:08:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43785&oldid=43638 * Stalem * (+2951) Conjecture and interpreter source
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00:01:47 <HackEgo> [U+0063 LATIN SMALL LETTER C] [U+0323 COMBINING DOT BELOW]
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00:09:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43786&oldid=43781 * Vioz- * (+490)
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00:53:27 <zzo38> Do you know what typesetting system can use codes like this? @b"PRINTT bytes:tbl,width:int,@u(height:int),@u(skip:int) EXT:254 X"
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01:11:31 <hppavilion[1]> So there are various[citation needed] networking models
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01:22:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43787&oldid=43784 * Tripl3dogdare * (+952) v1.2 released!
01:24:00 <zzo38> I don't know of other models though
01:30:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43788&oldid=43787 * Tripl3dogdare * (+1) /* Computational class */
01:33:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43789&oldid=43788 * Tripl3dogdare * (-23) /* Commands */
01:35:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43790&oldid=43789 * Tripl3dogdare * (+11) /* Commands */
01:47:25 <Sgeo> nortti, new Evillious songs
01:47:47 <Sgeo> Actually hmm not sure if any are new http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Original_Sin_Story:_Complete_Edition
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02:12:28 <oren> which special characters can be in a linux password?
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02:14:02 <zzo38> I don't know if there are any limits; maybe everything is allowed, or maybe null characters are not allowed, I don't know
02:14:52 <oren> esoteric netwroking: ephemeral server. Instead of having a server on all the time, the client program logs onto AWS and creates a virtual server.
02:15:26 <oren> (or replace AWS by azure or whatever)
02:15:50 <oren> my point is, the server is created by the client whenever it needs one
02:17:42 <oren> if two clients need to communicate, they instead tell the servers to communicate
02:19:06 <oren> etc. you can extrapolate all kinds of wtfy things from this architecture
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02:50:26 <zzo38> I played a "rotris.gba" game and I made 79 lines. It is a variant of a tetris game where the more lines you made, the more the picture is spinning.
02:56:46 <zzo38> (Also the ROM image is only 4288 bytes long in total (I believe it was made as part of a contest to make small GBA programs) and even includes music)
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03:05:55 <zzo38> Yes I am on by now
03:06:34 <hppavilion[1]> Would an INTERNATIONAL ESOLANG DESIGN COMPETITION be a cool idea?
03:08:02 <zzo38> Maybe. Something like that might have been done before, I don't really know for sure
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03:13:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43791&oldid=43790 * Tripl3dogdare * (-33)
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03:16:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MagiStack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43792&oldid=43791 * Tripl3dogdare * (-203) /* Computational class */
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03:44:33 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: moreover with a large body of them. i suppose writing programs is not the
03:44:42 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: i think cast can have just two exits for a while to come up with the way chicken builds?
03:45:46 <fungot> izabera: did i just join ml, ocaml, etc?
04:01:31 <hppavilion[1]> Does anyone want to participate in/judge an Esolang Design Competiton?
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04:26:07 <izabera> did you know that over 60kb in lostkng.b are perfectly pointless?
04:27:54 <izabera> i wrote a simple cleaner that removes stuff like >< +- and loops that are never executed, the size was 2189420 bytes and the output is 2128155 bytes
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04:33:51 <izabera> oh...... it looks like my cleaner only removed 2kb and the rest were just \r\n...
04:34:05 <izabera> still, 2kb of useless code!
04:35:45 <oren> I think C should interpret \A as \001, \B as \002 etc
04:38:05 <oren> because then \A would equal the keystroke ctrl-A, etc.
04:39:30 <oren> convenience and correspondence to ASCII. \n for linefeed, \a for bell etc are too arbitrary.
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04:41:01 <izabera> \n Newline \r carriage Return \b Backspace \e Escape \f Form feed \v Vertical thingy
04:43:20 <izabera> i mean they kinda make sense
04:44:54 <oren> \G bel \H backspace \I tab \J linefeed \K vert.tab \L formfeed \M carriage return
04:45:35 <oren> you can enter these chars at any terminal using the buttons or the corresponding ctrl-letter there is no difference.
04:45:50 <izabera> who ever used ^L for anything
04:46:11 <izabera> also who ever liked that damn bell
04:47:51 <oren> bell is good for notifications but some asshole programs bell when you enter a wrong character... so most poeple disable audible bell
04:48:17 <izabera> everyone who needs to keep some level of sanity
04:48:48 <izabera> vim also has the idiotc _visible_ bell
04:48:56 <izabera> in which the screen flashes
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04:49:10 <oren> bash is the main culprit, it beeps every time you try to autocomplete a wrong name
04:50:03 <izabera> to disable it for all the readline programs, put this in your .inputrc: set bell-style none
04:50:33 <oren> oh so it's readline's problem? those assholes
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04:50:57 <izabera> readline is developed by the same author of bash
04:51:02 <izabera> and it's shipped as part of bash
04:52:11 <oren> form feed should clear the screen but it doesn't?
04:53:02 <izabera> ^L by default is bound to clear-screen in emacs mode
04:54:10 <izabera> so it should clear it unless you messed with something
04:56:35 <oren> I mean on output.
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04:59:07 <zzo38> I enabled audible bell, it was disabled by default at first
04:59:48 <zzo38> Do you mean why I enabled it, why it was disabled at first, or both?
05:01:09 <zzo38> So that the bell can be use! But I had to create a sound file to do so I just used SoX to create a square-wave sound and used that as the X bell sound.
05:31:00 <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19 hth
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05:39:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43793&oldid=43783 * 50.170.122.255 * (+10) /* Non-alphabetic */
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05:41:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43794 * 50.170.122.255 * (+249) Created page with "'''Snowman''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by Stack Exchange user Doorknob. ==External Resources== * https://github.com/KeyboardFire/snowman-lang Interp..."
05:42:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43795&oldid=43794 * 50.170.122.255 * (-2) /* External Resources */
05:43:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43796&oldid=43793 * 50.170.122.255 * (+14) /* S */
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05:54:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43797&oldid=43735 * 50.170.122.255 * (+243)
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07:37:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43798&oldid=43795 * 86.6.211.224 * (+85) /* External Resources */ added link to Doorknob's tutorial.
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07:43:58 <myname> i like the idea behind snowman
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09:48:36 <izabera> https://github.com/SirCmpwn/bf-irc-bot
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10:13:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Orlando * New user account
10:21:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43799 * Orlando * (+131) Created page with "Hi! I haven't created any esoteric programming language yet, but I am working on a new one. It will be a stack-oriented language."
10:22:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43800&oldid=43799 * Orlando * (+4)
10:22:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orlando]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43801&oldid=43800 * Orlando * (+4)
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10:42:49 <fungot> boily: the former species is more robust: if you start inserting from the ends of lists so many times
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10:43:22 <boily> mauris: fnellord to you too.
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13:34:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43802&oldid=43699 * Vioz- * (+31) added Stuck
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13:35:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43803&oldid=43802 * Vioz- * (+29) /* Stuck */
13:35:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43804&oldid=43803 * Vioz- * (-1) /* Stuck */
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13:49:17 <nortti> Sgeo: seems queen of the glass, barisol's child is only a child and a song I heard somewhere are new
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13:55:45 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19 hth <-- thx tmhh
14:14:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43805&oldid=43691 * Rdebath * (+152) TOC --->
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15:23:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43806&oldid=43786 * 72.38.29.19 * (+833)
15:24:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43807&oldid=43806 * 72.38.29.19 * (+0) /* Overview */
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15:27:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43808&oldid=43807 * 72.38.29.19 * (+233)
15:31:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43809&oldid=43808 * 72.38.29.19 * (+61) /* Examples */
15:36:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43810&oldid=43809 * 72.38.29.19 * (+35) /* Examples */
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15:39:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43811&oldid=43810 * 72.38.29.19 * (+29) /* Examples */
15:42:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43812&oldid=43811 * Vioz- * (+179) /* Overview */
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16:43:58 <coppro> google now in the wifi business
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16:50:52 <fizzie> Taneb: https://on.google.com/hub/
16:52:14 <Taneb> The top of that router looks like a showerhead
16:52:32 <fizzie> I thought the whole thing looked suspiciously like Amazon Echo.
16:52:45 <shachaf> Taneb: is it true they have something called "electric shower" in the uk
16:52:50 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 57m 5s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=8569129&postcount=19 hth <-- thx tmhh
16:53:06 <fizzie> shachaf: I have an electric shower.
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16:53:27 <Taneb> shachaf, it is different to an electricity shower
16:53:45 <shachaf> what does it do and how can i get one
16:53:56 <fizzie> It heats up your water on-line.
16:54:24 <fizzie> You just plug it in a cold water supply, and it heats it up while the water's passing through.
16:55:06 <shachaf> I heard y'all maybe also have showers where you set the temperature, instead of the hot and cold pressures?
16:56:11 <Taneb> There are showers with hot and cold pressures?
16:56:21 <fizzie> That's a bizarre thought.
16:56:41 <fizzie> UK has a number of taps with separate cold/hot controls (sometimes even separate taps), which is something you never see in Finland.
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16:56:43 <Taneb> This one of the things like "Using a microwave to boil water for tea"
16:56:53 <mauris> http://www.sakabe.nuie.nagoya-u.ac.jp/Malbolge/ this is too many papers about malbolge
16:57:01 <fizzie> I don't think I've seen it much in showers though.
16:57:18 <Taneb> fizzie, that dates back to when there was a boiler in the attic which could get contaminated
16:57:30 <Taneb> Cold water was potable, hot water was not necessarily
16:57:55 <fizzie> For my cheap electric shower, you set one three-state toggle between "cold / hot / even hotter" (determines the heating power), and then adjust a "temperature slider" which actually adjusts the flow rate. The "hot end" passes less water through, and the cold end more.
16:59:03 <fizzie> Thanks to the low-granularity heating power switch, if the tap water cools down enough so that the lower heating setting isn't enough, you'll start to waste both electricity *and* water, because you have to turn the heating up to max, and then compensate by also increasing the water flow.
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17:07:42 <zzo38> How do I change the autocompletion of some programs with bash? By default it uses any filename, but with some programs it can know to do it differently; how is this and how to put in your own customizations?
17:08:56 <FreeFull> zzo38: Look at the Programmable Completion part of the bash manpage
17:10:31 <tswett> Whelp. Theoretically, my OS kernel has dynamic memory allocation now.
17:11:21 <tswett> What sort of algorithm should I implement in order to test it out?
17:15:36 <tswett> I could... reverse a linked list!
17:15:47 <tswett> Yes, that sounds best.
17:16:44 <FreeFull> tswett: Flip a tree upside down
17:17:03 <fizzie> I just wrote a bash completion thing the other day.
17:17:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CJam]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43813&oldid=40310 * Nooodl * (+646) expand stub
17:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43814&oldid=43588 * Nooodl * (+27)
17:17:59 <fizzie> I think generally you just write a shell function that looks at and sets some magic "COMP*" variables, and then call "complete -F _function_name command" to make tabbing after 'command' to call that function to generate the completions.
17:18:22 <tswett> data Branch a (AntiTree a) (AntiTree a) | Leaf = AntiTree a
17:18:28 <zzo38> In my case I want to get the results from a SQL query
17:20:54 <fizzie> What I wrote lets you write "command X Y", and X is tab-completed based on a longish list of words from a file, while Y is completed from a hardcoded list of 7 words.
17:21:03 <shachaf> fizzie: I guess that's the opposite of what I was describing.
17:22:07 <fizzie> It looks like http://sprunge.us/ROQc
17:24:32 <FreeFull> I think it's just data AntiTree a = Root a | Node a (AntiTree a)
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17:26:02 <zzo38> I want to know such answer too please
17:26:50 <shachaf> I remember reading about GC with antiroots.
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17:39:06 <mauris> FreeFull: that looks a lot like a non-empty list
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18:18:12 <FreeFull> mauris: Consider that each AntiTree will be shared by two Nodes
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18:25:11 <tswett> Hmm. I could come up with the linear logic dual of a Tree.
18:25:53 <tswett> Tree(a) = (a * Tree(a) * Tree(a)) + 1
18:27:24 <tswett> Eert(a) = (a ⅋ Eert(a) ⅋ Eert(a)) & ⊥
18:27:46 <tswett> Which is a little weird, I know.
18:28:29 <tswett> The thing about ⅋ is that it's hard to interpret.
18:29:42 <tswett> `learn Rust is the Haskell version of C.
18:29:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'rust': Rust is the Haskell version of C.
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18:36:01 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/C/C++/' wisdom/rust
18:36:11 <shachaf> It's probably more like the ML version of C++, anyway.
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18:51:00 <tswett> Maybe we can compromise.
18:51:28 <tswett> `le/rn rust/C++ is the Java version of C. Rust is the Haskell version of C.
18:51:36 <HackEgo> C++ is the Java version of C. Rust is the Haskell version of C.
18:51:45 <tswett> Or maybe Rust is the Scala version of C?
18:52:10 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
18:52:21 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
18:53:01 <shachaf> tswett: No, those are all wrong.
18:54:20 <tswett> Hey, I have a great idea.
18:55:49 <tswett> `learn Rust is what Haskell would be if it were C++.
18:55:51 <HackEgo> Learned 'rust': Rust is what Haskell would be if it were C++.
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18:59:27 <tswett> `learn Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
18:59:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'rust': Rust is C++ as designed by the makers of Haskell.
19:01:07 <shachaf> int-e: when's the next olist twhib
19:01:56 <shachaf> oh, you might be the wrong person to ask
19:01:57 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
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19:20:49 <zzo38> What did you require?
19:21:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to figure out the best way to interface with a tree for an OO Data Structure-Based shell I'm designing
19:21:56 <zzo38> I do not completely understand what you are making
19:22:38 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/18PNux6Q2niEapkoeMVcrB6gJRVkPOaD6O2nKJos_LE0/edit?usp=sharing
19:22:49 <zzo38> Do you have the one that isn't Google Docs?
19:23:22 <zzo38> About tracking what?
19:23:41 <hppavilion[1]> I could just give you a brief overview if you like
19:23:43 <zzo38> I just don't like Google Docs; it is terrible.
19:24:00 <hppavilion[1]> It's pretty good if you can't stay on one computer all the time
19:25:08 <hppavilion[1]> It starts with an object reference (object.command)
19:25:28 <hppavilion[1]> The objects you can reference are data structures (linked lists, bloom filters, binary trees, etc)
19:25:44 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to decide how the semantics for the trees should work
19:26:01 <hppavilion[1]> The way I was going to do it is with a pointer head that's over a node and can be moved with a MOVE command
19:26:44 <zzo38> Make the object to have the property of the children node and parent node, may be also some way?
19:27:10 <hppavilion[1]> Can you provide an example of the syntax for that?
19:27:46 <zzo38> It depend on the exact format of the tree, I think
19:28:08 <hppavilion[1]> How would I set the value of the left child of the right child of the root node to n
19:29:05 <zzo38> Something such as t.right.left=n is I would suppose? You could though have MOVE command to select them too, like you use CHDIR and stuff in DOS and Windows
19:29:43 <zzo38> Yes that is also the way
19:31:00 <zzo38> For working file if you aren't always on one computer all the time, for me using vi over ssh works fine (or use emacs if you prefer emacs), or a wiki can be used too, but SSH is better
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19:32:01 <zzo38> If you have a server with UNIX, it can still be connected using Windows, by using a program such as PuTTY
19:32:51 <zzo38> (Although it will be more difficult to use the GUI programs unless you have a X server for Windows too. Stuff such as vi and so on won't need the GUI though)
19:34:01 <zzo38> You can edit Markdown too with vi or emacs or whatever, but you will need the program that can then render it or convert it.
19:34:19 <zzo38> WYSIWYG is I don't like it much
19:34:38 <hppavilion[1]> But it's OK for writing docs that the masses can understand
19:36:36 <hppavilion[1]> What other ways could the user interact with a tree?
19:37:05 <zzo38> Possibly, execute command for each node, I suppose
19:37:20 <hppavilion[1]> Because t.left.right.right.left.right.left.left.... gets exhausting pretty quickly
19:37:56 <zzo38> Something like t."lrrlrll" maybe can be shortcut too
19:40:29 <zzo38> OK, but couldn't you have something like "CHDIR" instead, if you are at t.left.right and then you can type .right.left.right.left.left.set n and it uses relative by the dot at first.
19:42:52 <zzo38> I don't know, if you need rose-tree
19:43:28 <Taneb> Rain is not, as I had assumed, an optical illusion
19:44:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Vioz- * uploaded "[[File:N6FractalTree.png]]": n=6 fractal tree
19:45:30 <zzo38> I don't know; you can decide what you want to use
19:45:44 <zzo38> I would probably prefer C, but you use what you like
19:45:48 <hppavilion[1]> And I can't find any resources on making a DT language in a ST language
19:46:49 <zzo38> It shouldn't be too difficult; I have done it before too
19:47:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Vioz- * uploaded "[[File:N12DragonCurve.png]]": n=12 dragon curve
19:47:39 <hppavilion[1]> Having a map where the values are other DSes in C or C++
19:48:03 <zzo38> If you look at the codes of some other programs (such as METAFONT and SQLite) for some other examples of a few things.
19:48:07 <hppavilion[1]> And if anyone out there finds it interesting they can reimplement it in the language of their choice
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19:48:54 <hppavilion[1]> And I'll probably just use trees with a RW head for now, as that seems like the simplest option and best for people
19:52:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LindenMASM]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43817 * Vioz- * (+2564) initial submission.
19:55:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LindenMASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43818&oldid=43817 * Vioz- * (+4) /* External Resources */
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20:26:48 <coppro> what's the best windows shell?
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21:28:19 <Taneb> Trivia: one of my friends defines a macro to add a "do not" block to his C++
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21:29:15 <shachaf> Aren't there at least two sources for logs?
21:30:53 <oerjan> yes, and one of them was missing parts hth
21:31:29 <shachaf> oerjan: so what do you make of this southern calendar thing
21:34:10 <oerjan> it would have been cooler if the calendar had new year at solstice. otoh do we have proof that it doesn't.
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21:50:42 <mauris> god probably the thing i google the most is "ascii table"
21:51:47 <shachaf> Why limit yourself to ASCII?
21:52:25 <shachaf> I have a keyboard shortcut that opens a terminal window with less unic.txt, where unic.txt is http://slbkbs.org/unic.txt
21:55:01 <fowl> Froze my phone
21:56:33 <mauris> shachaf: usually I only need an overview over all of ASCII, as this mostly tends to be for code golf stuff
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21:57:07 <lambdabot> CYUL 182100Z 15008KT 15SM FEW030TCU FEW150 BKN210 29/22 A2991 RMK TCU1AC1CI6 TCU TR SLP128 DENSITY ALT 1800FT
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22:00:04 <mauris> depending on how nice man ascii looks, that might be a good solution, though
22:01:05 <mauris> http://www.asciitable.com/index/asciifull.gif this table (the first google result) is pretty nice, but i don't use the octal/html columns
22:01:25 <mauris> both windows and unixy stuff
22:01:44 <mauris> (heck, i spend a lot of time in cygwin shells, so sure, maybe i can get `man ascii` to work on there)
22:02:25 <mauris> i'm not sure what the purpose of the html column is. it's just &#decimal; except sometimes it doesn't exist
22:03:09 <mauris> i wonder what other fascinating tables lookuptables.com has to offer??
22:04:49 <mauris> ebcdic?! i--ibm scan codes
22:06:31 <mauris> i love ascii \x00 through x\1f. who still uses things like 'FIELD SEPARATOR'
22:06:40 <zzo38> I sometimes use it
22:07:35 <zzo38> Yes, I sometimes use it
22:08:38 <mauris> zzo38: in programs you wrote yourself?
22:09:13 <zzo38> Although I use the RECORD SEPARATOR and UNIT SEPARATOR more often, although other control codes also are sometime use, not very often though.
22:09:48 <shachaf> who uses 0x01 START OF HEADING?
22:10:42 <boily> I do, when I'm using codepage 437.
22:10:45 <zzo38> I have use that one too. "ASCII Records Format" which is a data format I invented uses START OF HEADING and some of the other controls for delimiting data
22:11:06 <shachaf> answer: this one scow protocol used for exchanging financial information
22:11:45 <boily> tswett: tswellott. you seem undecided about rust. would you like to become the Maintainer of the Wisdom Entry in the PDF?
22:16:45 <shachaf> int-e: What happened to lambdabot's @read command?
22:16:53 <shachaf> Could we have it back? It was great.
22:20:04 <oerjan> was it the opposite of that
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22:21:11 <oerjan> so @read is somewhat redundant
22:22:08 <oerjan> @@ @show @run var @show @run var "hi"
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22:23:42 <oerjan> @@ @show @run var @show @run var " hi"
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22:40:58 <hppavilion[1]> I'm considering hosting an International Esolang Design Competition
22:41:26 <oerjan> i recall the last one rather fizzled out...
22:41:41 <boily> where would it be? will there be Chinese and/or Vietnamese food nearby?
22:41:47 <boily> hellørjan. there was one?
22:41:56 <oerjan> or was that a collaborative one...
22:42:19 <hppavilion[1]> boily: So if you want to be somewhere near Chinese and/or Vietnamese food when you are designing
22:42:30 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Adjudicated_Blind_Collaborative_Design_Esolang_Factory
22:42:47 <oerjan> before that, there were the Essies, some of which actually had results
22:43:04 <oerjan> (back in the mailing list days)
22:44:04 <boily> mailing list? today is a learning day.
22:45:34 <oerjan> there were 5 Essies, only the first two of which have any interesting results, and only the first of which has a known winner
22:46:14 <fizzie> We've got them listed at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Esoteric_Awards
22:46:16 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the mailing list died because people stopped using it. there's just no market.
22:46:27 <oerjan> that's what i was looking at.
22:46:51 <boily> I wouldn't be surprised if there were more people using gopher than mailing lists.
22:46:56 <fizzie> "2003: It is not known if the Essies were held in 2003." I think you could say that for more years.
22:46:57 <oerjan> i might technically still be subscribed to the list, in receive-no-mail mode...
22:47:20 <oerjan> oh. 4 known Essies then.
22:47:22 <hppavilion[1]> I was just trying to see if anyone wanted to restart it for the retro value :P
22:48:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SumaMoito]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43819&oldid=36437 * Atrapado * (+311) reference the incomplete implementation project in github.
22:49:07 <oerjan> Kayak and LazyK are the languages that stuck in my mind. i would say sorted! but it seems to have unstuck again.
22:49:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[International Esolang Design Competition]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43820 * Hppavilion1 * (+263) Did the same thing over and over again and expected different results.
22:51:37 <oerjan> boily: well Agora still works by mailing list, and the haskell community has several that are reasonably alive...
22:52:47 <oerjan> although many people, like me, might be following the latter via some site other than their personal mailbox
22:54:05 <oerjan> the original mailing list for Agora just died in the last year, it was still officially a backup
22:54:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SumaMoito]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43821&oldid=43819 * Atrapado * (+1) /* Implementation */ fix typo.
23:03:50 <boily> oerjan: indeed. I follow GHC and other announcements on /r/haskell.
23:04:08 <boily> the best way to enjoy agoring is through irc, imho, hth.
23:05:16 <zzo38> Actually I think the FORMCARD protocol I have designed once even uses the SYNCHRONOUS IDLE control code (although for some kinds of underlying transfer protocols it will not be needed).
23:05:24 <oerjan> i also follow /r/haskell, of course, but that's not what i meant: i follow some of the mailing lists just by browsing the haskell.org/pipermail archives
23:05:43 <oerjan> did you know spj's messages look horrible when converted to plain text
23:06:12 <boily> today is definitely a learning day.
23:06:23 <zzo38> (Although it is designed to use ASCII, it is possible to implement it using other character sets too, such as EBCDIC or ISO646 or Unicode)
23:06:49 <oerjan> boily: the irc channel is, afaict, not an Agora Public Forum, or even publically archived. but then neither of us is a Player at present.
23:07:47 <oerjan> also technically it's not even limited to Agora, but other nomics aren't that often discussed.
23:09:38 <shachaf> oerjan: is /r/haskell terrible these days
23:09:43 <shachaf> i stopped following it a while ago
23:10:35 <zzo38> It is the protocol for defining and transfering forms, independently of the way it is displayed and filled in (for example it can be a HTML form, it could be a block terminal, it could be filled in on paper and scanned into the computer, or it could be filled in on paper and then the operator manually enters the data into the computer)
23:10:46 <oerjan> hm ##nomic actually _is_ an official Agora discussion forum.
23:11:58 <oerjan> shachaf: well the people blaming Stack/FPComplete for dividing the community are a bit tiring.
23:12:30 <oerjan> there seems to be some hope for more productive interchange lately, though
23:12:36 <shachaf> especially for someone who's entirely interested in the theoretical aspects of haskell?
23:13:19 <oerjan> oh i wouldn't know, too much theory at once liquifies my brain
23:13:37 <boily> oren: helloren. back to the unslashed version of yourself?
23:16:05 <oerjan> also i tend to skip a lot of posts rehashing old discussions
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23:41:44 <hppavilion[1]> boily: r/haskell/ ? Is that anything like s/haskell/whatever/ ?
23:42:20 * boily expressively mapoles hppavilion[1]
23:43:09 <boily> nothing beats a mapole for karmic realignment.
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23:46:45 <oerjan> r/haskell/ would seem to attempt to read a directory named /haskell/ , i'm not sure that's a legal use of the command.
23:47:23 * boily realigns hppavilion[1]
23:47:33 <oerjan> `` touch test; sed -i 'r/haskell/' test
23:48:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to take something as stupid as possible and write something almost half decent
23:48:27 * oerjan is reminded of that oglaf thing
23:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> Decent in the "good" sense of the word, not the "appropriate" sense of the word
23:50:21 <oerjan> `` touch test; sed -i 'rwisdom/' test
23:52:07 <shachaf> `` echo $'a\nb' | sed 'rwisdom/hth'
23:52:07 <HackEgo> a \ hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous. \ b \ hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:53:38 <oerjan> `` echo a | sed rwisdom/
23:53:38 <HackEgo> sed: read error on wisdom/: Is a directory \ a
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00:07:47 <boily> fungot: welcome back! (and don't insult my mom.)
00:07:53 <boily> fungot: yes I have.
00:07:53 <fungot> boily: what do you mean? did you really need to get to your point? can you watch flv?
00:08:05 <boily> fungot: I have it, tsé. yes, and yes.
00:09:23 <oerjan> fungot: you seem left out
00:09:23 <fungot> oerjan: but if you evaluate something like ' fnord'." case matters." and " typos"? must be.
00:09:39 <boily> a typo in the botsnack command. understandable.
00:09:43 <fizzie> fungot: Thanks for reverting back to insensibility.
00:09:43 <fungot> fizzie: 5 minutes have passed control on to a guy who loves you for shutting up to love me.
00:09:52 <oerjan> ^def botsnack ul (Oh nom nom nom!)S
00:10:09 <fungot> boily: no he's gonna patrol fnord/ fnord that, r2q2. i have neither had the opportunity to discover all of this
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00:49:56 <MDude> Randian Algorithmic Methods, the objectivist-oriented programming language
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01:02:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43822&oldid=43804 * 206.174.179.24 * (+2) Renaming APL to AnyPL because APL is not an esoteric language (despite appearances).
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01:12:20 <Sgeo> nortti, are translated versions out?
01:19:58 <oren> Machine-Base-32: digits are @ thru _
01:21:11 <oren> e.g. hex 127 = mb32 C_
01:22:56 <oren> yeah. it goes well with machine hex, which uses digits 0 thru ?
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01:24:17 <mauris_> oren: huh, i can imagine how that works / why that exists, but i can't find any source that uses it
01:24:39 <oren> It doesn't exist to my knowlefge
01:24:47 <oren> I just invented them
01:25:14 <lifthrasiir> Machine-Alphabets: upper case A thru Z, lower case [ thru t
01:27:19 <oren> machine hex prevents problematic numbers like B16B00B5 from occurring
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01:29:30 <lifthrasiir> oren: I assume you haven't translated 0xCDD8 into machine hex.
01:30:23 <oren> AAAAA you ruined everything
01:31:54 <oren> Well, machine-32 makes SHIT and FUCK perfectly valid 20-bit integers
01:33:18 <oren> actually that fits well with unicode
01:34:30 <oren> hmm, well if you don't count the last plane
01:35:35 <oren> in hex most unicode is five digits. in base 32 it would be 4 didigts
01:36:37 <lifthrasiir> oren: allow ` and a as the first digit and you will be fine
01:36:56 <oren> yeah that would work
01:45:29 <zzo38> But also some other codes are not valid Unicode characters, such as surrogates and 0xFFFE and 0xFFFF (although you can still represent them in UTF-8 anyways if you want to)
01:48:13 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: U+FFFE/FFFF is a "noncharacter" and it is fully valid.
01:49:20 <zzo38> It isn't a character though. It can be encoded with UTF-16 but you can't detect the byte order properly with that
01:49:22 <mauris_> i think some programs use FFFE to detect byte order? so while you can embed them into files they break things in some encodings
01:49:29 <zzo38> Also some other program don't accept it
01:49:53 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: they are special in one kind but ultimately valid.
01:50:23 <zzo38> XML and RDF cannot use it either, and you should avoid it for portable Unicode data
01:50:53 <fizzie> "Noncharacters are in a sense a kind of private-use character, because they are reserved for internal (private) use. However, that internal use is intended as a "super" private use, not normally interchanged with other users. Their allocation status in Unicode differs from that of ordinary private-use characters. They are considered unassigned to any abstract character, and they share the ...
01:50:59 <fizzie> ... General_Category value Cn (Unassigned) with unassigned reserved code points in the standard. In this sense they are "less a character" than most characters in Unicode, and the moniker "noncharacter" seemed appropriate to the UTC to express that unique aspect of their identity."
01:51:05 <lifthrasiir> mauris_: only the first occurrence will be affected, so a redundant BOM will be sufficient.
01:51:29 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: yup, I just want to say that they are not "invalid" in normal sense; they are less usable than others, obviously.
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01:52:42 <zzo38> Yes, it is a kind of "very private", I suppose
01:56:09 <zzo38> In portable data you should not use surrogates either (except as proper pairs in UTF-16 data), since if a program convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 then it will cause problems!
01:59:06 <zzo38> Some program that use RDF might expect all ASCII, but even then if the implementation is to be complete, the RDF Turtle parser still has to for example to be able to tell if two nodes are he same even if one time a character is mentioned with \u and other time with the canonical UTF-8 representation.
01:59:08 <oren> the BOM in Machine-32 would be A_S_
02:01:22 <oren> FFFF would be A___ and FFFE would be A__^
02:13:55 <oren> wait, couldn't you use FFFE to switch byte orders in the middle of a utf16 string?
02:15:46 <pikhq> Not in normal UTF-16; semantically it's basically a zero-width non breaking space in the middle of a string.
02:15:58 <zzo38> I think it would depend on the implementation; normally you can't!
02:27:02 <Sgeo> Is The Elements of Computing Systems a good book?
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03:23:24 <Sgeo> "The result of this elaborate translation process, known as compilation, will be yet another text file, containing machine-level code"
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04:29:32 <oren> FUCK. how do I make mod_rewrite do something, anything?Q?!?
04:30:06 <oren> RewriteRule "^foo$" "index.html"
04:30:13 <oren> doesn't do jack shit
04:31:25 <coppro> make sure it's a virgin
04:31:48 <coppro> read the binary code in the blood and translate that as a brainfuck program
04:31:55 <coppro> execute the brainfuck program
04:32:11 <coppro> add the RewriteBlackMagic "key" directive, where "key" is repalced by the output of the brainfuck program
04:32:42 <izabera> what if the program never terminates
04:33:00 <izabera> oren: ^foo$ without quotes
04:35:30 <oren> Ok I changed that. http://www.orenwatson.be/foo still 404s
04:38:03 <izabera> is mod_rewrite enabled? what's in your .htaccess?
04:38:48 <oren> I don't have .htaccess.
04:39:00 <oren> I just have apache2.conf
04:40:29 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/partialconf
04:40:38 <oren> the rest is comments
04:41:45 <izabera> is apache trying to load a file named <quote>index.html<quote> ?
04:42:02 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/foo
04:42:59 <oren> doesn't seem to have changed anythign
04:56:01 <oren> FUCK why does it suddenly work?!?!
04:56:24 <oren> whoever wrote the docs for this stuff is an ass
05:17:57 <oren> Ok so essentially: the thing that the regex tries to match is the part of the FILENAME (WTF) after the directory tag's direcotry.
05:18:26 <oren> so ^foo$ won't work. it has to be ^html/foo$
05:19:21 <oren> becasue the directory is /var/www and the file is in /var/www/html
05:19:42 <oren> even hough html isn't in the url...
05:20:48 <oren> at least now I can autogenerate html versions of plaintext files instead of duplicating everything
05:23:27 <oren> when in doubt pkill -9 plugin-container; pkill -9 firefox;
05:23:49 <oren> pkill -9 pulseaudio; pkill -9 blueman
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05:25:30 <oren> oh, he was using the web irc thing. whoops
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05:44:18 <nortti> < Sgeo> nortti, are translated versions out? ← didn't seem so
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06:05:11 <oren> Is there a better procedure for viewing ansi-escaped files than telnetting in and GET /file.ans ?
06:10:23 <Hoolootwo> I guess it may depend on your terminal
06:12:34 <oren> oh, never mind, you can use less -R, I already documented that
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08:47:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kslkgh * New user account
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11:01:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43823&oldid=43798 * Kslkgh * (+50)
11:07:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43824&oldid=43822 * Kslkgh * (+39) added snowman hello world example
11:18:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43825&oldid=43823 * Kslkgh * (+929)
11:24:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43826&oldid=43825 * Kslkgh * (+3032)
11:26:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Snowman]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43827&oldid=43826 * Kslkgh * (-3629)
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11:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43828&oldid=43796 * 107.1.152.193 * (+14) Added Hello++
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12:34:10 <oren> if you talk to apache and say GET /cp437 with no 1.1 at the end, it ouputs only the file with no http header
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12:54:45 <fizzie> That's good old HTTP 0.9.
12:55:04 <fizzie> http://www.w3.org/Protocols/HTTP/AsImplemented.html
12:57:17 <oren> that makes it easy to dump to a file.
12:57:38 <fizzie> The original HTTP/1.1 RFCs -- like https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616 -- had 0.9 support as "expected".
12:58:23 <fizzie> Of course that was in 1996.
12:59:03 <fizzie> The current one has removed that bit.
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12:59:36 <oren> i think the ability to nc www.orenwatson.be 80 <<<$'GET /cp437' >cp437 is a good thing
13:01:15 <oren> t really understand mod_rewrite but at least I got the autohtmlification working
13:02:41 <oren> I have only the file cp437.txt on my server. Asking for a file with no extension gives you a txt if it exists. asking for the same file with .htm gives you a htmlified version
13:04:59 <oren> (unless the same filename with .htm actually exists, in which case I had converted it manually)
13:07:27 <nortti> a list of s/regex/something
13:07:44 <nortti> +/ replacements that are repeated until no match is turing complete
13:08:46 <nortti> but can just one s/regex/something/ (repeated until no longer matches) simulate a turing machine? I thought about rule-110, but I can only condense it down to two replacement rules
13:09:39 <nortti> (either one for 1 and one for 0, or one for both using some funny encoding and one for clenup)
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13:18:01 <fizzie> Is that allowing for backrefs in the 'something'?
13:20:32 <fizzie> I wouldn't be surprised if it could, but that's just a hunch. What do your existing rules look like?
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13:24:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LindenMASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43829&oldid=43818 * Vioz- * (+3) /* Commands */
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13:26:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LindenMASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43830&oldid=43829 * Vioz- * (+0)
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13:46:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43831&oldid=43812 * Vioz- * (+1) /* Examples */
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14:12:57 <nortti> fizzie: turns out the method I tried was faulty, it didn't actually simulate a rule-110
14:16:09 <oerjan> ^ul (^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^)()~((())~:a~*):a~*~^!(~((!())(!:^(^)*)(!!:^(!^)*))~*^!!^):^(~((()())(:a~*:(*(!^)(:)S)~*~(!*(^)(^)S)~*):a~**((!^)~^!^)(!(^)~^^))~*^( )S!!a:(*)*~(~*)**^~*(()()(!)()(!)(:a~*:(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(^)*)))~*~(!^(!^((!^)*)(!(^)*))(!^((^)*)(!(!^)*)))~*):^)~*^!!!!!!~:^):^
14:16:10 <fungot> ^^:^^^:^^^^^:^^^^^^:::^^^^^^^^:::^^^:^^^^::^ :^^^:^^^:::^^^::::^::^^::::::^::^^:^^^::^:^^ ^^:^^^:^::^^:^:::^^:^^^:::::^^:^^^^^:^:^^^^^ :^^^:^^^:^^^^^::^^^^^:^::::^^^^^:::^^^^^:::: ^^:^^^:^^^:::^:^^:::^^^:::^^:::^::^^:::^:::: ^^^^:^^^:^::^^^^^::^^:^::^^^::^^:^^^::^^:::^ :::^^^:^^^:^^:::^:^^^^^:^^:^:^^^^^:^:^^^::^^ ::^^:^^^: ...too much output!
14:17:19 <oerjan> best viewed in a terminal that's narrow enough to wrap on the spaces
14:25:58 <oerjan> nortti: btw you know the universality proof for r110 requires an infinite cell setup, right?
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14:29:16 <oerjan> the setup is mostly a leftwards and a rightwards repeating part, though
14:30:03 <oerjan> which _could_ be handled with regexes, although doesn't make it easier to condense down to 1...
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14:34:25 <fizzie> /(0)([01]*)(-)[01]([01]*)|(1)([01])([01]*)(-)([01]*)/\2\1\3\4\7\5\6\8\9\6/ looks borderline passable for a BCT. With a [program]-[data string] encoding.
14:36:33 <fizzie> `run perl -e '$s = "00111-101"; while (1) { print "$s\n"; $s =~ s/(0)([01]*)(-)[01]([01]*)|(1)([01])([01]*)(-)([01]*)/\2\1\3\4\7\5\6\8\9\6/; }' | head
14:36:34 <HackEgo> 00111-101 \ 01110-01 \ 11100-1 \ 10011-11 \ 01110-110 \ 11100-10 \ 10011-101 \ 01110-1010 \ 11100-010 \ 10011-0101
14:37:16 <fizzie> That matched the "Example" run at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag up to the second-last line.
14:38:20 <fizzie> I think the example is just wrong. It says that for command 11, data 010 the next data is again 010 and not 0101.
14:40:07 <fizzie> Oh, I'm missing the copy condition completely.
14:40:12 <fizzie> Yeah, will need to add that.
14:41:00 <fizzie> Well, that should be easy.
14:44:05 <fizzie> Repeating s/(0)([01]*)(-)[01]([01]*)|(1)([01])([01]*)(-)(0)([01]*)|(1)([01])([01]*)(-)(1)([01]*)/$2$1$3$4$7$5$6$8$9$10$13$11$12$14$15$16$12/; in Perl seems to exactly match the example.
14:44:18 <fizzie> Had to switch from \n to $n due to going double digits.
14:45:41 <fizzie> `run perl -e '$s = "00111-101"; while (1) { $s =~ /-([01]*)/; print "$1\n"; $s =~ s/(0)([01]*)(-)[01]([01]*)|(1)([01])([01]*)(-)(0)([01]*)|(1)([01])([01]*)(-)(1)([01]*)/$2$1$3$4$7$5$6$8$9$10$13$11$12$14$15$16$12/; }' | head -n 12 # "proof"
14:45:42 <HackEgo> 101 \ 01 \ 1 \ 11 \ 110 \ 10 \ 101 \ 1010 \ 010 \ 010 \ 010 \ 10
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15:58:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dom111 * New user account
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16:00:35 <HackEgo> dom111: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:01:12 <dom111> hey there, just snooping mostly :)
16:02:00 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, you described me as nosy once
16:02:13 <oerjan> except when shachaf is doing it hth
16:03:19 <dom111> hah, I guess I should hope I don't go too far then!
16:04:20 <dom111> It's ok, I'm not snooping on people, just wanted to see what goes on here really! I've checked out the wiki a lot lately and wondered if I could contribute somehow.
16:04:25 <shachaf> the described nosiness has its benefits
16:04:43 <shachaf> dom111: Most of what goes on here isn't related to esoteric languages.
16:05:04 <dom111> Just general snooping?
16:05:58 <dom111> I see, I didn't properly look at the channel name to be honest ...
16:06:39 <shachaf> dom111: E.g. http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/736x/d0/b0/14/d0b014bd22206e0cd62de10b493354ae.jpg
16:07:05 <oerjan> let's not get carried away, it's _supposed_ to be about esolangs.
16:07:36 <dom111> So a bit more like this: http://i.imgur.com/DwR4aOE.png
16:07:58 <shachaf> dom111: that looks like regular snoopy
16:08:02 <shachaf> my link was general snoopy
16:08:51 <shachaf> oerjan didn't swat me for some reason
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16:09:26 <oerjan> probably because of my headache
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16:31:03 <tswett> So I'm trying to build this project, and ld is complaining, and I don't know why.
16:31:07 <tswett> Here's the deets: https://pastebin.mozilla.org/8843222
16:31:31 <tswett> ld says: "/home/tswett/sandwichos/src/kernel.rs:42: undefined reference to `heap'"
16:31:53 <tswett> Well, "heap" is right there in build/multiboot.o, isn't it? Can't ld see that?
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17:10:58 <ashl> does ld not actually look for _heap
17:12:50 <fizzie> tswett: bind == LOCAL for the symbol 'heap' in multiboot.o.
17:13:30 <fizzie> (I'm not sure if that's the same concept as visibility, though; haven't used readelf much.)
17:14:13 <fizzie> Hm, there's "vis: DEFAULT" too. Maybe it doesn't mean what I thought it meant.
17:15:28 <fizzie> Okay, I guess a symbol needs to be both STB_GLOBAL and STV_DEFAULT in order to be visible.
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18:29:21 <stalem> anyone here enjoy reading shitty first-time attempts at a proof? :D
18:30:03 <shachaf> a proof proof, in other words?
18:31:02 <stalem> a proof-reading proof? proof proof. it's starting to lose its meaning
18:31:36 <stalem> it's the sound a really large inflated floppy baloon makes when you release it
18:33:52 <stalem> but yeah what do you mean by proof proof exactly? :P
18:40:01 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galley_proof hth
18:57:41 <stalem> heck what do i know i have no education or knowledge in this. for all i know it might not even be called an attempt
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19:00:18 <stalem> either way i just tried to prove that the only type of quines in resplicate are made of 2's size four or greater
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21:05:09 <Ox0dea> Which is the optimal compression algorithm for Whitespace programs?
21:06:08 <Ox0dea> Printing them out is optimal, but I haven't figured out how to undo it.
21:08:20 <shachaf> I'm sure you can do better than printing them out.
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21:09:15 <Ox0dea> shachaf: How do I create a file of negative size?
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22:05:54 <zzo38> What filesystem supports files with negative sizes?
22:07:35 <Ox0dea> shachaf suggested that printing them out is not the most effective way to compress Whitespace programs.
22:07:59 <oerjan> _not_ printing them out would seem even more efficient hth
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22:08:33 <Ox0dea> oerjan: How is that a form of compression, though?
22:08:40 <myname> compress: Whitespaceprogram -> {0}
22:08:52 <Ox0dea> Right, how to do better than that?
22:08:58 <oerjan> Ox0dea: it compresses to 0 bytes hth
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22:16:52 <oerjan> hm curious internet failure
22:17:16 <oerjan> it says i have no internet connection. my browser agrees, but not putty.
22:17:49 <Ox0dea> oerjan: It looks like your connection is down from here as well.
22:20:04 <Ox0dea> oerjan: Well, I would expect to see messages from you if your connection was good.
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22:30:38 <oerjan> at least i have several already open tabs
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22:36:43 <oerjan> @tell stalem <stalem> either way i just tried to prove that the only type of quines in resplicate are made of 2's size four or greater <-- i find that unlikely, the language is turing-complete.
22:43:06 <oerjan> of course this had to happen just after midnight, there might not even be anyone noticing it
22:43:50 <oerjan> that's paid to, that is
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23:00:25 <oren> A file could be of negative actual size on a compressed file system if its existence causes the compression efficiency to icrease
23:01:06 <oren> I don't know how possible that is though
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23:09:40 <oren> idea for a stream cipher: compress the input and a predetermined other data using the same dictionary-based compression. Then decompress the input using the dictionary of the predetermined data.
23:10:02 <oren> the other side does the reverse
23:11:11 <oren> this isn't a very good cipher....
23:12:01 <oren> it only screws up the data when it is compressible
23:12:10 <Ox0dea> Converting Whitespace programs to PNGs actually compresses them better than xz.
23:12:14 <Ox0dea> Not gzip or bzip2, though.
23:12:35 <oren> try a naive run length encoding
23:12:49 <Ox0dea> oren: It wouldn't be all that great, I don't think.
23:13:30 <oren> try RLE compounded by gzip,xz, etc.
23:14:11 <oren> eg. replace 10 spaces by '10s' replace 2 tabs by '2t'
23:15:48 <Ox0dea> oren: Yes, alternation happens way too frequently for it to be useful.
23:16:11 <oren> what about something like 3st
23:18:36 <oren> hmm actually, what about first converting to binary with space with 1 and tab with 0
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23:24:16 <Ox0dea> oren: Did you mean ternary?
23:24:22 <boily> oren: helloren. I think you found the Elusive Porthello of Ais523. thanks.
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23:24:23 <Ox0dea> Translating " \t\n" to "012" on my biggest Whitespace program results in a ternary number of 1749 bits, which rounds to 219 bytes, which is indeed better than gzip or bzip2.
23:24:24 <ais523> oren: my advice would be to take the individual Whitespace commands (rather than space/tab/newline) and form a Huffman dictionary out of them
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23:41:03 <boily> Scandinavian tech support: http://i.imgur.com/i9ZBC.jpg
23:41:14 <boily> (I believe this is Swedish. olsner?)
23:41:26 <fizzie> It looks Swedish to me.
23:42:02 <fizzie> Andreas Hedlund has gone through (as in, thought of/tested) all possible ("thinkable") software problems.
23:44:24 <fizzie> Now he's deduced it's a hardware issue, to paraphrase a bit. I don't think "Modermodemet" is anything at all. But apparently it's the heart of the hard disk, and it's not working.
23:45:03 <oren> mivrocontroller maybe?
23:45:14 <boily> the Modem's Mother?
23:45:15 <fizzie> It's, like, "mothermodem".
23:45:30 <fizzie> Moderkort(et) would be a valid term for a motherboard.
23:45:44 <fizzie> Not sure if it's applicable to the controller board of a disk drive in Swedish, maybe.
23:47:20 <fizzie> I don't see a hard disk anywhere in the photo, anyway.
00:11:31 <shachaf> Ox0dea: printing them out doesn't compress newlines very well at all hth
00:17:38 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover. what makes you say that?
00:21:04 <oren> maybe his bag of bones hands?
00:22:23 <Ox0dea> shachaf: You're right, but A4 paper can fit 842 lines at 1pt.
00:22:46 <Ox0dea> My largest Whitespace program only contains 211 lines.
00:23:19 <mauris__> hey, is there some way to download the entire wiki?
00:23:49 <Ox0dea> mauris__: https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Exporting_all_the_files_of_a_wiki
00:24:55 <oren> also his baggy eyes
00:26:08 <oren> although baggy eyes are also common among slavs
00:26:08 <mauris__> fizzie, whence the 'u' in 'mjukvaruproblem'?
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00:30:07 <boily> helooodl. you're Swedish?
00:30:57 <oren> in general though that dude is pale and thin and looks like he's never had a tan. so he has to be from somewhere up north...
00:32:10 <boily> oerjan: as an Up North person, do you corroborate oren's assertion?
00:33:01 <boily> fizzie: I'd ask you, but I fear you're an Even More Up North Like Really North You Wouldn't Believe How Far North person.
00:35:01 <mauris> boily: jag har b?rjat l?ra mig lite svenska, men inte v?ldigt allvarligt.
00:36:15 <mauris> it's a pretty language! i like the rhythm. i have absolutely no connection to sweden
00:36:15 <boily> you ain't Swedish! your question marks lack umlauts!
00:39:05 <fizzie> AIUI, oerjan was north of me even back when I was living in Finland.
00:39:18 <mauris> ais523: i guess to make a really good Huffman dictionary, you need a large corpus of which commands are most common
00:40:00 <Ox0dea> mauris: That doesn't seem like the sort of thing you'd need a heuristic for, though.
00:40:02 <ais523> but even a reasonably bad Huffman dictionary is still often decent
00:40:09 <ais523> or you can use some sort of adaptive huffman
00:42:29 <ais523> haha, I love the edit summary on http://esolangs.org/wiki/International_Esolang_Design_Competition
00:42:35 <ais523> can we keep this page around just for the history
00:42:53 <mauris> i originally wanted to do something like this for gs2. currently all commands are a byte, but i was planning on like, having some of them be 5 bits, some 10, etc
00:43:12 <mauris> however i didn't feel comfortable just making up numbers for the frequencies :(
00:43:24 <mauris> plus huffman codes don't look very easily extendable?
00:48:35 <fizzie> mauris: I don't speak Swedish all that much/well. But I think the special noun forms (including last-vowel elision/mutation) used as "modifiers" are probably remnants from something or other. At any rate, it happens. vara -> varuhus, hälsa -> hälsofarlighet.
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00:49:33 <oerjan> <mauris__> fizzie, whence the 'u' in 'mjukvaruproblem'? <-- swedish seems to do that when forming compounds with -a nouns (originally weak feminine ones), i think it's from the old norse genitive, see e.g. the more well-preserved icelandic declension https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vara#Noun_5
00:51:34 <oerjan> <boily> oerjan: as an Up North person, do you corroborate oren's assertion? <-- only for geeks i think, everyone else seems to have a tan these days. in my youth i occasionally tried, sometimes with catastrophic results.
00:51:45 <fizzie> oerjan: Sometimes they drop the vowel. ficka -> ficktjuv.
00:52:11 <oren> Hmm.. the furthest north place I've been in Canada is RouynNoranda which has the same latitude as, like, Paris. Europe's climate is bullshit
00:55:11 <boily> oren: AAAAAAAAAAAH!
00:55:19 <boily> what the fungot where you doing in Rouin?
00:55:19 <fungot> boily: no wonder you're a bored college guy, you know
00:55:37 <boily> fungot: I don't go to college anymore. I got bored.
00:55:37 <fungot> boily: last time i checked lisppaste is at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ results/ fnord this year and i might
00:55:47 * oerjan cannot look at the word "varuhus" without thinking about Karl-Bertil Jonssons julafton
00:56:18 <oren> boily: I was wtching fireworks wiht my dad and my uncle?
00:57:05 <oren> I don't really remember the reasons we were there
00:57:23 <oren> other than my dad grew up there
00:57:23 <oerjan> ("Jag har skänkt lite glädje åt dessa olyckliga som inte äger något varuhus")
00:57:53 <boily> oren: good reason. so you're half Québécois?
00:58:07 <fizzie> http://goo.gl/maps/X8BWi is probably about the northest I've been. I don't recall where exactly we went on another Lapland trip.
00:58:14 <oren> more like a quarter.
00:58:34 <oren> my grandma is from Enlgand
00:59:01 <oerjan> fizzie: i suppose i have no real idea why norwegian sometimes inserts an -s- (old genitive too) and sometimes doesn't.
01:00:05 <boily> a quarterbécois, then.
01:00:09 * oerjan laughs and points at oren from the gulf stream
01:01:27 <izabera> have you guys ever used lex/yacc?
01:02:07 * oerjan has looked at it, but possibly not used...
01:02:16 <ais523> and know quite a lot about yacc
01:02:30 <oerjan> ah yes ais523 is writing a replacement
01:02:45 <oren> hmm myndzi has a bigger dick in my font
01:03:06 <izabera> i'd rather not receive dicks from myndzi anymore -_-
01:03:16 <izabera> ok i need help to parse something like this
01:03:35 <ais523> izabera: with escape syntax and all that?
01:03:37 <izabera> "inside strings we can embed brackets( )"
01:03:56 <izabera> (do you call those parentheses or brackets?)
01:04:10 <ais523> ( and ) are normally called parentheses, to distinguish them from [ and ]
01:04:25 <ais523> although all of ( ) [ ] can probably legitimately be called brackets
01:04:38 <ais523> you normally see "parenthesis" or "paren" among programmers for disambiguation purposes
01:04:47 <ais523> (with "square bracket" used for [ and ] if it needs to be unambiguous)
01:04:53 <oren> I call () round brackets, [] square brackets, {} curly brackets
01:05:04 <izabera> "the part inside these (parentheses) is a different quoting context"
01:05:20 <izabera> so i can have something like this: "foo ( "bar baz" ) bat"
01:05:45 <izabera> and inside parenteses you can have other nested parentheses
01:05:52 <oren> so you have to match "foo( )bar( )baz"
01:06:06 <oren> so start by mtahing "foo"
01:06:15 <oren> then match "bar(
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01:06:40 <oren> each as separate tokens
01:06:44 <izabera> it's kinda hard, i'm a beginner
01:07:03 <izabera> ah it looks like $( ) in shell script
01:07:19 <izabera> not sure if you know what i mean
01:07:58 <oren> so parse "foo( )baz" as a STRING_ENDING_IN_ROUND_BRACKET followed by a STRING_STARTING_WITH_ROUND_BRACKET
01:08:31 <ais523> oh, I actually like oren's solution
01:08:47 <ais523> also because terminals in yacc are uppercase by convention
01:08:49 <oren> TOKEN_NAMES_ARE_IN_SNAKE_CPAS_BY_CONVENTION
01:09:54 <izabera> ok lemme try and i'll report back my progresses
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01:20:33 <Ox0dea> izabera: Are you trying to use regular expressions to parse a recursive grammar?
01:21:17 <izabera> i'm trying to parse a recursive grammar, yes
01:21:58 <izabera> i know the limitations of regex
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01:24:28 <oren> that's why the "foo( "bar" )baz" each have to be separate tokens
01:27:45 <ais523> Ox0dea: we're trying to parse a recursive grammar using tools that are intended to parse recursive grammars
01:28:01 <ais523> the problem is that it's one that doesn't have a simple lexing/parsing divide
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01:49:01 <mauris> oerjan, wow i see you found my SO question
01:49:43 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/q/32106435 ?
01:51:02 <mauris> i should go hack at that some more. maybe i can bring out the -XTypeSynonymInstances or something terrifying like that
01:53:19 <mauris> wowowow, -XNewtypeDeriving??
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02:00:03 <oerjan> you mean GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving
02:00:38 <mauris> yes, this is even more magic
02:01:07 <mauris> so now i just try to list every typeclass that exists on earth in this `deriving (...)`??
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02:06:03 <oerjan> shachaf: i think mauris's SO picture beats us both in lifelikeness hth
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02:07:56 <oren> Ok I changed my cgi script to ouput a mtime so that things will be cached
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02:08:53 <mauris> deriving (Bounded, Enum, Eq, Foldable, Fractional, Functor, Integral, Monoid, Num, Ord, Read, Real, RealFrac, Show, Traversable)
02:10:11 <mauris> this is silly. i want to derive (*)
02:10:12 <oerjan> don't forget Applicative hth
02:10:40 <mauris> sadly i need to write that one myself because it has fancy constraints
02:11:00 <oerjan> shachaf: mauris thinks Monoid is fancy
02:11:32 <ais523> are options for "deriving" pluggable? or do they have to be built into the compiler?
02:11:47 <shachaf> mauris: monoids are so easy hth
02:11:58 <oerjan> ais523: they're pluggable with the new DeriveAnyClass extension
02:12:12 <shachaf> You're pretty limited in the instances you can derive with that.
02:12:40 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
02:12:48 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
02:14:07 * oerjan thinks shopping is harder
02:14:22 <Ox0dea> Shopping is hard. Let's go mathing.
02:15:30 <oerjan> edwardk: do you have anything equivalent to newtype Const3 a b c = Const3 { getConst3 :: a } , twh
02:15:38 <mauris> Const3 is reducing basically every instance to monoids
02:16:21 <mauris> instance Monoid m => Category (Const3 m) where
02:16:22 <mauris> Const3 x . Const3 y = Const3 (mappend x y)
02:16:52 <mauris> what is hard though: checking applicative laws
02:16:54 <shachaf> That's not the "category with one object" thing, though.
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02:18:06 <mauris> hmmm, i guess it isn't
02:18:07 <oerjan> shachaf: well it's equivalent to it, maybe
02:18:19 <oerjan> if you take the skeleton
02:18:20 <shachaf> oerjan: well, it has a whole bunch of different objects
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02:18:44 <shachaf> oh, equivalent in that sense
02:19:21 <shachaf> what are the arrows between two different objects?
02:19:23 <Ox0dea> oerjan: Taking skeletons is illegal in many jurisdictions.
02:19:32 <oerjan> mauris: you have Applicative and Category, so you should have Arrow hth
02:20:41 <mauris> yes i'm looking for more (k -> k -> *) -> Constraint thingies, arrow sounds easy
02:21:06 <oerjan> oh hm i'm wondering...
02:21:29 <oerjan> :k Kleisli (Writer Int)
02:26:29 <oerjan> hm my search seems to have hit one of zzo38's haskell packages
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02:26:57 <shachaf> it's too late to back out now
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02:27:49 <oerjan> no it isn't, also it doesn't seem relevant. https://hackage.haskell.org/package/monoidplus-0.1.0.1/docs/Data-Monoid-Plus.html
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02:43:54 <mauris> Profunctor is one thing
02:49:33 <oerjan> they're phantom parameters, so they're both co- and contravariant all ways
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04:01:53 <ais523> hmm, if something is both covariant and contravariant
04:01:57 <ais523> doesn't that imply it isn't used at all?
04:02:02 <ais523> (sort of the opposite of being invariant)
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05:58:14 <oren> I just bought a laptap based primarily on it being the only one I could find over 2Kg
06:02:42 * Sgeo_ built an ALU :) (not IRL. Using a hardware description language)
06:02:54 <Sgeo_> Also it conforms to specs someone else made
06:02:54 <oren> Sgeo_: Niiice!
06:04:55 <oren> 2.7 kilograms of laptop. because fuck you, macbook-air-using weaklings
06:05:58 <Sgeo_> Just noticed a typo. Tests did not catch it.
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06:31:34 <oren> which operations does you alu support?
06:34:02 <Sgeo_> & and +, with some modifiers on input and output that allow for -, |, and some other stuff
06:35:09 <Sgeo_> So, it's &, +, with options to zero out the inputs, bitwise negate the inputs and bitwise negate the output.
06:35:37 <izabera> my bf interpreter returns 0 on EOF, what's wrong with this line? +[>,----------]+[<++++++++++.]
06:35:43 <izabera> i want to read a line and reverse it
06:36:33 <ais523> izabera: you're running off the end of the tape going leftwards
06:36:43 <Sgeo_> oren, http://nand2tetris-questions-and-answers-forum.32033.n3.nabble.com/file/n95834/alu_worksheet.pdf
06:36:54 <ais523> !bf >,[>,]<[.<]!reverse
06:36:55 <izabera> ais523: aaah dammit, i see
06:36:59 <ais523> ^bf >,[>,]<[.<]!reverse
06:37:08 <izabera> yes but that doesn't stop on \n <.<
06:37:21 <ais523> I know, but the important thing is to look at where the < signs are
06:37:38 <ais523> you need the > at the start to give you an extra 0 at the leftmost end to stop on
06:37:42 <izabera> fixed it ----------[>,----------]+[<++++++++++.]
06:37:44 <ais523> and you need the < at the end of the loop
06:38:06 <ais523> otherwise you're outputting a NUL just before the program ends
06:38:09 <ais523> which looks a bit messy
06:38:22 <Sgeo_> http://nand2tetris-questions-and-answers-forum.32033.n3.nabble.com/Is-the-method-used-to-make-the-Hack-ALU-an-exception-or-the-rule-td4026896.html
06:39:36 <ais523> Sgeo_: that's quite some URL
06:39:54 <oren> hmm, that seems to be a good approach iirc that's how the 6502 ALU works (with the ALU control bits coming from some logic on the opcode)
06:40:58 <shachaf> http://www.5z8.info/how-to-build-a-bomb_a2k7om_myspace-of-sex hth
06:41:04 <Sgeo_> It does mean that there's redundant functions, e.g. two ways to get x out (x&-1 and x+0)
06:42:03 <ais523> shachaf: do you have that URL just saved up as an example of an amusing URL?
06:42:10 <ais523> (unsurprisingly I am not following it)
06:42:19 <shachaf> No, I got it from http://www.shadyurl.com/
06:42:20 <ais523> Sgeo_: I doubt that can be helped, really
06:42:29 <shachaf> It's a short link version of Sgeo_'s URL.
06:42:36 <ais523> shachaf: ah right, you have an amusing URL generator memorized instead
06:42:49 <ais523> Sgeo_'s is more informative, though, I think
06:42:52 <shachaf> I have the existence of one memorized.
06:43:17 <shachaf> @google amusing url generator
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06:43:18 <lambdabot> Title: ShadyURL - Don't just shorten your URL, make it suspicious and frightening.
06:43:36 <oren> cool. I should do all my bookmarks with that
06:43:59 <ais523> in this case, the URL is indeed shorter
06:45:20 <oren> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B00WBXG6ZM
06:46:13 <izabera> did you mean http://www.5z8.info/-php-deactivate_phishing_filter-48-_b9d7ac_nazi
06:47:11 <ais523> the previous shady URL was better
06:47:18 <ais523> that one just doesn't make any sense
06:47:18 <oren> anyway do you like the look of that laptop?
06:47:27 <ais523> (also, is the bit before and after the hex string actually relevant?)
06:47:41 <ais523> it seems to me that such a site would be better if the hex string wasn't part of it
06:48:06 <izabera> the look of the laptop is the same as any thinkpad...
06:49:19 <shachaf> ais523: That reminds me of when I was wondering what the best way to convert some data (say, a private key, maybe a few thousand bits?) to a form which can be memorized relatively easily.
06:49:30 <oren> it isn't the same as this flimsy thing:
06:49:32 <oren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad#/media/File:Lenovo_ThinkPad_X1_Ultrabook.jpg
06:49:43 <shachaf> Or even just a secret key, 128 or 256 bits, would be a good start.
06:50:33 <ais523> shachaf: well, the people who have memorization world records start by having a code for the individual things you're encoding (say nybbles in this case), mapping them onto reasonably general concepts that are distinct and memorizing that mapping
06:51:28 <ais523> and then they form a story which uses the concepts in the sequence that they're trying to memorize, preferably an amusing one because that's more memorable
06:51:56 <izabera> that's the just a basic method of loci...
06:52:17 <ais523> izabera: I'm not claiming that this is some big secret or whatever
06:52:35 <izabera> i used to be decent at this a few years ago...
06:53:01 <shachaf> I'd rather transform the data into a form which is easy for people to remember than transform people into a form which is well-suited for memorizing data.
06:53:04 <izabera> in 2009 i had a national record for multiple blindfolded rubiks cube solving
06:53:56 <izabera> oh look my memory is so good that i had to check and it was 2010
06:55:10 <ais523> I, um, was top 8 in the UK at the Pokémon video game championships in 2011? that's some sort of achievement
06:56:02 <ais523> I think doing multiple rubik's cubes blindfolded is more impressive
06:56:19 <ais523> there's a bunch of memorization and strategy in both, but in Pokémon, what you have to memorize doesn't change much from game to game
06:56:32 <ais523> (other than things you've observed the opponent do earlier in the game, and I often forget that…)
06:57:44 <izabera> it was only 5 cubes and it took me 43 *minutes*
06:57:54 <izabera> by today's standards it's crap
07:03:25 <ais523> but at least they ended up in the right arrangement?
07:03:34 <ais523> I doubt I'd be able to keep track of just the one cube while blindfolded
07:04:00 <izabera> oh it's not that hard, can you solve it?
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07:04:41 <ais523> there are a couple of situations that I keep forgetting the solutions to
07:04:47 <ais523> (one of which is fairly common)
07:04:55 <ais523> but I used to be able to solve it pretty reliably
07:05:08 <ais523> I don't know what "t perm" stands for / refers to, it's possible I know the concept but not by that name
07:05:29 <izabera> it's just a permutation that swaps two edges and two corners
07:06:02 <ais523> oh, in that case I remember seeing it but don't use it
07:06:31 <ais523> I've seen multiple notations but they all use much the same language
07:06:37 <ais523> RLFBUD is one I know, yes
07:06:56 <izabera> the t perm swaps the RU and LU edges, and the RFU and RBU corners
07:07:15 <izabera> you can use that to solve the whole cube
07:07:45 <ais523> oh, and that's why it took 43 minutes :-)
07:07:54 <izabera> no solving is relatively fast
07:08:40 <izabera> e.g.: let's solve an edge 3-cycle
07:09:06 <izabera> just random edges, doesn't matter
07:09:09 <ais523> do you do edges first, corners first, or a bit of both?
07:09:24 <izabera> edges first, eventual parity, corners
07:10:20 <ais523> my "current" (as in last time I solved it) approach to parity is "try to solve most of the cube, if the parity is wrong do a sequence to fix it", but that's slow
07:11:05 <izabera> anyway, to solve that cycle: move BL to UL without messing with UR, URF or URB (this is called a setup move), then tperm, then invert the setup move
07:11:18 <izabera> then setup DR to UL, tperm, anti-setup
07:11:27 <izabera> then setup FU to UL, tperm, anti-setup
07:11:28 <ais523> right, I use setup moves for top corners
07:11:35 <ais523> but then my technique is from an old guide
07:11:43 <ais523> which does top edges, top corners, middle edges, bottom corners, bottom edges
07:11:58 <izabera> that's not a good method for blindfolded solving
07:12:17 <ais523> it's not a good method for any other purpose eitehr
07:12:18 <shachaf> Something like two edges being flipped?
07:12:24 <ais523> other than feeling like you're making progress
07:12:42 <izabera> no, it's when you have both an odd permutation in edges and corners
07:12:42 <ais523> shachaf: well flipping two edges has patterns that fix it, but it's quite long
07:12:53 <izabera> i mean, both edges and corners have an odd permutation
07:13:17 <shachaf> I think I solved it top corners, top edges, middle edges, bottom corners, bottom edges.
07:13:35 <izabera> yes but you need to keep track of the state of the cube
07:13:46 <shachaf> Not good for blindfolded solving.
07:13:56 <izabera> blindfolded methods do this by solving one or two pieces at a time and leaving the rest as it is
07:14:37 <shachaf> To some degree you could use the bottom edge/corner methods for the top edges and corners.
07:15:08 <izabera> well i think most people use the fridrich method...
07:15:25 <izabera> basically the first two layers are built intuitively, then oll and pll with fast algorithms
07:16:43 <izabera> aka "complete the yellow face" and "complete the yellow layer"
07:17:01 <shachaf> It's been probably more than ten years since I last thought about this.
07:17:52 <shachaf> I remember that I liked how you could use the same method that you use for rotating/flipping top corners/edges for the bottom layer, as long as you did it twice, one of them in reverse.
07:18:42 <izabera> well yes that's fun but a bit slow <.<
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07:46:53 <shachaf> Oh, "intuitive" has a technical meaning here.
07:48:12 <izabera> all f2l "algorithms" can be derived easily with a little practice
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08:49:30 <ashl> i derived mine using GAP (http://www.gap-system.org/) ._.
08:50:00 <ashl> now i can't remember them or find the code
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09:53:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Undergroundmonorail * New user account
10:03:34 <ais523> that probably isn't a spambot
10:03:45 <ais523> more of an esoteric transport system
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10:27:09 <izabera> i assume all of you have seen ex machina
10:27:16 <izabera> suppose you become a billionaire for some reason
10:27:26 <izabera> and buy this really large house with a huge garden
10:27:39 <izabera> well that's not even close to ex machina but that's the idea
10:28:00 <izabera> how do i stop phone companies to provide cell phone coverage on that area?
10:28:32 <ais523> izabera: well whether you get coverage depends mostly on whether you have line of sight to a cellphone mast
10:28:41 <ais523> (range also matters but not nearly as much)
10:29:19 <ais523> so I guess you'd need to figure out which cellphone masts are visible, then find new locations for them that cover the same areas except not your garden
10:29:43 <izabera> that's easier than i thought
10:29:46 <ais523> and then somehow convince the people who own the land where the new locations would be to let you build cellphone masts there
10:29:51 <int-e> izabera: afair it was in the mountains, and the property was huge (wasm"we've been flying over his property for a few hours now"?)
10:30:07 <int-e> s/wasm/wasn't there a line like... /
10:30:09 <ais523> alternatively you could build a big metal wall around your garden to block the signals
10:30:15 <izabera> yeah the helycopter guy said something like that
10:30:34 <izabera> a big metal wall would ruin the view
10:31:25 <ais523> well it depends on whether the view you care about is the entire surrounding countryside, or just your garden
10:31:36 <ais523> if the garden is big enough you wouldn't even really be able to see the wall
10:31:59 <izabera> that'd mean to live in a prison -_-
10:32:11 <izabera> a large prison is still a prison
10:32:33 <ais523> well, are you keeping yourself in, or the world out
10:32:41 <ais523> it'd probably be you who had the keys to any gates in it
10:32:42 <izabera> wait, i got it. i could build a wall around everything else
10:33:12 <izabera> i'd laugh about people being caged
10:34:06 <ais523> isn't that equivalent?
10:34:18 <ais523> the wall's in the same place either way :-)
10:34:43 <int-e> Mmm. Reminds me of Aeon Flux
10:34:46 <izabera> of course it is physically equivalent but my version is much more satisfying
10:35:01 <int-e> (not people being caged, I'm still on the "big garden" thread)
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10:50:17 <fizzie> How about satellite phone coverage?
10:50:49 <ais523> you'd need to block LOS to the satellite, or disable the satellite somehow
10:52:06 <fizzie> Completely unrelated, but might be of interest to some: someone told me the SIGGRAPH 2015 proceedings are available for downloading (without any ACM subscription) for a limited time ("maybe a week") at http://dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=2809654&_sm_au_=iVV25TfRTPr0jbK6
10:54:38 <ais523> there's such a weird scale of journal publishers
10:55:03 <ais523> all the way from "outright evil" to "aware they probably shouldn't be that evil but it's a habit right now" to "gives the impression of genuinely trying to do the right thing, just sucks at it"
10:57:39 <boily> on a scale from one to Elsevier, where would you put the ACM?
11:00:34 <fizzie> A paper I was involved was just published under SpringerOpen. I don't know where that fits, because it's all open-access, but it's still a part of the Springer conglomerate.
11:00:57 <ais523> boily: probably somewhere in the middle
11:01:30 <ais523> (also, I like the way that we both instinctively identified Elsevier as the most evil end of the scale, even if I didn' t say it)
11:01:34 <fizzie> They've got an "open access waiver fund" that covers the open access fees for authors in countries "classified by the World Bank as Low-income economies or Lower-middle-income economies as of September 2014, and which have a 2013 gross domestic product of less than 200 billion US dollars". I guess it's a good thing, but it's still a bit arbitrary.
11:02:24 <ais523> fizzie: AFAICT the "typical" way for large conglomerates to do open-access is to work out how much people in total are willing to pay to make any given paper open access
11:02:30 <ais523> then charge that, regardless of the actual cost
11:02:45 <ais523> I've heard rumours that it's in the thousands of dollars range
11:03:02 <fizzie> It was something with four digits for an IEEE journal.
11:03:18 <ais523> (ACM actually called some other journals out for doing this and then charging for the open-access stuff as part of a subscription bundle anyway)
11:04:53 <fizzie> I kind of like that SpringerOpen just wants you to apply a CC-Attribution license to your paper instead of signing some custom dozen-page legal thing that does whatever.
11:05:32 <ais523> well, isn't creative commons' entire purpose to come up with correctly legally worded licenses for some specific common special licensing cases?
11:05:52 <ais523> not taking advantage of that is basically arrogance, you're claiming that you have better lawyers than creative commons
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11:06:41 <fizzie> Apparently the SpringerOpen journal "my" paper is in charges $1105 (or EUR 900, or £705) per article.
11:07:27 <ais523> OK, that's less than I thought but nonetheless ridiculously high
11:07:43 <ais523> the cost of editing and reformatting is nonzero but not that large
11:08:03 <ais523> the cost of proofreading and peer review is effectively zero because they make academics do it for no pay
11:08:36 <ais523> (I remember there was a movement a while back to boycott publishing in the shadier-business-practice journals; IMO that doesn't make sense, the correct thing to do is to boycott peer review for them as they're basically profiting off your unpaid work)
11:09:41 <boily> there's always Arxiv...
11:10:53 <ais523> arxiv is a good solution to some of these problems
11:11:11 <ais523> (it's only allowed the pre-peer-review versions of the papers, though, which normally contain errors because they haven't been peer reviewed yet)
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13:22:15 <oren> if arxiv added a comment and rating system, limited to academics, then would we need peer review?
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13:28:33 <ais523> oren: you'd still need to encourage people to review, I think
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13:28:46 <ais523> also that would sort-of miss the reality of how conferences work (but maybe not journals)
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20:46:25 <olsner> @tell boily ah, the mother modem, that is swedish and hilariously wrong
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21:11:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43832 * Undergroundmonorail * (+127) Created page with "I'm undergroundmonorail and I'm deeply disturbed by the fact that I can't get rid of the uppercase U in the title of this page."
21:12:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43833&oldid=43832 * Undergroundmonorail * (+7) clarity
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21:30:26 <fizzie> olsner: Apparently it's a kind of a Thing in Swedish computery forums.
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21:56:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43834&oldid=43833 * Oerjan * (+14) EMERGENCY LIFESAVING USERPAGE EDIT
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00:23:31 <oerjan> top of the night to you!
00:24:02 <shachaf> oerjan: shocking prediction: hel's vote will be in the direction of a tie hth
00:24:28 <oerjan> it _would_ be rather useless to show up otherwise
00:24:41 <shachaf> stories have so much selection bias :'(
00:24:50 <oerjan> my far out prediction obviously failed
00:25:15 <oerjan> now we may wonder what happens with a tie.
00:25:37 <oerjan> given they were an odd number without Hel, it's probably not common.
00:26:10 <shachaf> presumably the twelve gods run into that more frequently
00:26:21 <oerjan> another thought: we haven't seen belkar's body, which means by ancient trope we cannot assume he's dead yet.
00:27:00 <oerjan> perhaps he shows up in the next comic to get blasted into atoms
00:27:41 <oerjan> i guess there are atoms, given redcloak's chemisty knowledge
00:28:34 <oerjan> oots _does_ have pretty explicit narrative causality
00:28:57 <oerjan> so "selection bias" is not unexpected
00:31:08 <oerjan> shachaf: interestingly, they might have been in better shape if they _hadn't_ given veldrina a lift
00:31:34 <oerjan> because the western p. voted yes
00:32:38 <oerjan> although narrative causality would probably have messed up any attempt to make her get too late
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00:33:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 210000Z 15013KT 15SM BKN085 BKN150 28/19 A2983 RMK AC6AC1 SLP100 DENSITY ALT 1700FT
00:33:22 <oerjan> my far out prediction btw was that hel _wanted_ a no result and would swing it that way
00:33:41 <oerjan> because it had a better chance of _total_ disaster
00:34:01 <shachaf> oerjan: how does chemistry work in olistworld anyway twh
00:34:21 <oerjan> shachaf: well you have titanium elementals...
00:34:42 <shachaf> 296 refers to an ideal gas
00:34:50 <shachaf> but maybe that's in the same spirit as "nuking from orbit"
00:34:56 <shachaf> presumably there's no orbit in oland?
00:34:58 <oren> and chlorine elementals
00:34:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Grocery List]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43835&oldid=37037 * Nooodl * (+201) add interpreter
00:35:36 <mauris> i love implementing boring languages
00:35:41 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure it's established the world is actually flat
00:36:34 <oerjan> in fact wasn't it shown as round in some of the snarl story
00:37:10 <oerjan> http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html
00:37:36 <oren> yay my laptop is on the way
00:37:38 <shachaf> and the world within the world was also round
00:39:31 <oerjan> actually the comment there about the snarl not grasping the plan could point to destroying the world again maybe being more dangerous if it's got smarter...
00:39:50 * oerjan wonders if that line is parseable by humans
00:40:26 <boily> hellørjan. speaking in tongues? harbouring the Spirit of Fungot?
00:40:33 <lambdabot> olsner said 3h 54m 6s ago: ah, the mother modem, that is swedish and hilariously wrong
00:40:50 <oerjan> *actually the comment there, about the snarl not grasping the plan, could mean that destroying the world _again_ could be more dangerous, if it's got smarter...
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00:44:16 <boily> like the Old Chinese Proverb says, "oic".
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01:00:48 <boily> there are vodka TLDs now?
01:01:10 <boily> and I always manage to typo your porthello some way or another. sorry.
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01:16:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Sclipting]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43836 * 218.102.194.114 * (+40) Created page with "==Issues== What about Kana and Bopomofo?"
01:16:09 <oren> ooh, my new credit card is going to be black. who decides whcih colors are better anyway
01:16:49 <oren> They should make credit cards in FF00FF
01:19:19 <oren> Or transparent! yah. they should make semitransparent purple credit cards like the GBA
01:27:33 <izabera> what does this piece of assembly do? test cl, cl jne label
01:34:53 <izabera> challenge of the night: write a program that takes two strings and outputs a brainfuck program that replaces str1 with str2
01:42:29 <oren> jne means jump if ZF is 0
01:42:55 <oren> test sets ZF to 1 iff the two argumnets ANDed is 0
01:43:18 <oren> hence this would jump iff cl is zero
01:43:47 <izabera> thank you, i didn't know the and part
02:04:11 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/lu9wz7i.png
02:05:37 <oren> stop watching mietek?
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02:42:19 <zzo38> I found some webpage that tries to analyze your writing style and tell you what author you are writing like but it isn't very consistent and keep telling different answer. How would you classify my writing styles though?
02:42:46 <zzo38> (I pasted in several chapters from level20.tex and got many different answers.)
02:43:11 <izabera> same input same output, at least?
02:44:53 <zzo38> Yes, if the same input is given several times, it does give the same output each time too.
02:45:28 <izabera> are you a native english speaker?
02:45:58 <zzo38> Yes, but it is Canadian English
03:06:02 <mauris> zzo38: lots of your sentences are subtly ungrammatical, so your writing style is very recognizable to me.
03:08:23 <mauris> for example, in that line of yours, i think most english speakers would write: "tell you" -> "tells you", "keep telling different answer" -> "keeps telling different answers"; and consider your versions incorrect
03:11:57 <oren> i assumed that zzo38 was a second-generation immigrant, e.g. taught english by non-native speakers
03:15:48 <zzo38> No I was born in British Columbia and lived here all of my lifetime so far (although I have occasionally been to a few other places). Apparently they spoke to me in other languages too but now I forgot, and I speak and write English instead.
03:17:23 <oerjan> i don't think zzo38's grammar was wrong in that line; the "tries to" can scope over all the verbs, which means they can be infinitives
03:18:07 <mauris> oerjan, either way "*different answer" needs either an article or a plural though
03:18:08 <oerjan> the "tell" works, but not the "keep"
03:18:17 <mauris> but yeah, the "tell" does work!
03:18:43 <oren> Right, but your parents are from another country correct? You have a "residual accent".
03:19:41 <zzo38> My grandparents are from other countries
03:22:28 <oren> hmm, I haven't heard of an accent goig down three generations before. interesting
03:24:36 <oren> you tend to skip plurals and verb agreement basically
03:24:46 <mauris> i don't think zzo38's manner of writing is an ESL-related thing!
03:25:21 <oerjan> i don't want to assume too much
03:26:39 <oren> One of my friends' parents are from russia and because of that he has verb agreement and plurals, but he never puts in any articles when he talks
03:27:38 <oerjan> however, i've seen some evidence that zzo38's writing used to be a _lot_ weirder, years ago (before he came to this channel)
03:28:00 <oren> so basically zzo38 has a residue from a language with articles (or at least a similar distinction), but no verb agreement or plural?
03:28:47 <oerjan> his spelling used to be weird too, not any more
03:31:01 <mauris> zzo38: do you remember why you used to spell the way you did?
03:32:00 <zzo38> mauris: I don't know. But what I do know is that much of that stuff (whether or not it is spelled properly) is full of imposters or confusing someone with someone else, but not all of it is (some is authentic) and I do not know why; sorry.
03:32:41 <mauris> yeah, i always wondered if it was in error, or if you were advocating some kind of phonetic spelling of English
03:33:11 <zzo38> Well, sorry I just do not know! Although it is true that English has not very good spelling compared to other languages
03:33:22 <zzo38> If you have read my level20.tex and other stuff then how would it be called as the writing style I write with, compare to other author's writing, etc?
03:35:21 <mauris> zzo38: could you render the current level20.tex to pdf and upload it somewhere? i don't have a TeX renderer on hand, and reading raw .tex code is confusing sometimes :(
03:37:13 <zzo38> I could; I think this computer has dvi to pdf converter (it comes with TeX), so I will just put it in the same directory as the .tex and .dvi files I suppose.
03:39:39 <zzo38> OK, I have done that
03:40:09 <mauris> cool! can you link the file?
03:41:33 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex the .dvi and .pdf are also in the same directory (if you want the source files, you also need dungeonsrecording.tex in the same directory)
03:43:40 <zzo38> (There is also level20.trope in the same directory, although it may not be very good; it and the corresponding All The Tropes article could both be improved; actually level20.tex itself could even be improved too)
03:44:10 <mauris> i can't help but wonder how to pronounce Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe
03:46:09 <zzo38> I don't know either, but I tried anyways and can do nearly approximately. (Note that this is mentioned in the tropes article/RDF too)
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05:00:23 <zzo38> Is it possible to make blinking text with CSS animations? And then I could add a global CSS rule to fix the <BLINK> command?
05:09:03 <Sgeo> This architecture has a 16-bit A (used for memory addresses and loading constants) register. The instruction set allows for setting A directly with 15-bit numbers (16-bit instruction set, MSB=0 means put the rest of the instruction into A), and memory chips in this have 14-bit addresses (I think)
05:10:51 <Sgeo> Haven't actually assembled CPU so maybe they'll surprise me and use two RAM16Ks, but it would have been easier to build a RAM32K (which I'm not being asked to do)
05:12:54 <zzo38> What instruction set is that?
05:14:49 <Sgeo> The Hack CPU defined by The Elements of Computing Systems, http://nand2tetris.org/chapters/chapter%2004.pdf
05:15:06 <Sgeo> Start reading from 4.2.2
05:15:23 <Sgeo> page 8 of the PDF
05:22:08 <Sgeo> Oh probably for memory-mapped IO
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06:25:33 <int-e> `learn Soap is the main ingredient for the iridiscent visions that internet startups sell to investors.
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06:26:08 <int-e> (it's cheap. see also: bubble -- but I have no good definition for the latter yet)
06:28:19 <int-e> `` sed -i s/iridiscent/iridescent/ wisdom/soap # *sigh*
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06:29:13 <int-e> hackego is online, but not here...
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06:32:43 <stalem> you guys know how often oerjan is around?
06:33:20 <Walpurgisnacht> haven't been on in awhile so id say for myself he's on pretTy regularly
06:33:55 <int-e> Every day, but he has a fairly unpredictable sleep schedule.
06:34:20 <int-e> he was there 3 hours ago
06:34:52 <stalem> 3 hrs ago? is he a bat?
06:35:20 <int-e> I did write "unpredictable sleep schedule" for a reason.
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06:36:16 <stalem> true, it's just i live a time zone hour before him and being up at that time. not that i should be talking tho
06:36:57 <stalem> mastering the 20 minute nap would be convenient however
06:38:08 <int-e> Oh well, I used to follow an approximate 26 hour rhythm when I was a student...
06:38:49 <myname> stalem: afaik it is horrible if you delay one sleep time for even 15 minutes
06:39:37 <Flonk> I tried uberman for a month
06:39:38 <stalem> that's pretty much what i do now and i don't seem to be able to get rid of it. it's like i'm pavloved into a noncircadian rhythm. how did you get out of it?
06:39:56 <stalem> myname: yeah you wake up feeling all mushy
06:40:44 <int-e> stalem: external pressure (i.e., a job).
06:41:45 <stalem> int-e: in time then! maybe it's just me but i do find it somewhat a challenge even applying for jobs when you're not following a 24hr schedule
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07:31:32 <zzo38> I fixed the <BLINK> command in the new version of Firefox by writing the userContent.css file to fix it.
07:32:39 <zzo38> blink { animation: __blink 1s infinite; } @keyframes __blink { from {} 50% {visibility: hidden;} to {visibility: hidden;} }
07:37:37 <myname> by fixed you meant disabled?
07:38:20 <zzo38> But "text-decoration: blink" still doesn't work. How do you make CSS selectors to select based on the styles that have been applied to an element?
07:39:04 <zzo38> myname: I mean I fixed it so that the text will blink if inside of <blink>...</blink>
07:40:15 <zzo38> Anyone who want to use also can easily customize the blinking speed, currently it is set to 1 second
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09:34:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pada]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43837&oldid=17354 * Martin Büttner * (-225) Minor language change after email conversation with the original author. Commands will no longer be pipelined through the system but processed one at a time.
09:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pada]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43838&oldid=43837 * Martin Büttner * (-26)
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11:17:09 <boily> int-e: int-ello! the soap is documented and online.
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12:56:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Undergroundmonorail * uploaded "[[File:Rainbow-pb.png]]": An example input/output of rainbow.pb.
13:00:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pb]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43840 * Undergroundmonorail * (+5928) page created
13:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43841&oldid=43828 * Undergroundmonorail * (+9) added pb
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13:31:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pada]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43842&oldid=43838 * Martin Büttner * (+125)
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15:11:12 * oerjan snores in stalem's general direction
15:12:07 <oerjan> stalem: i'm a little unsure exactly how you define quine
15:12:10 <stalem> lemme just do the dishes and i'll be back in 10
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15:14:31 <oerjan> oh wait you mean never changes from step to step?
15:14:43 <stalem> i was just about to write it :P
15:14:53 <oerjan> hm then the TC objection doesn't hold
15:15:06 <oerjan> that was more for, "returns back to the same eventually"
15:15:25 <stalem> yeah that much i know it does, but iirc they were called oscillators
15:15:44 <stalem> imho that would be a program that generates a program that eventually generates the original program (a cool idea btw)
15:16:23 <oerjan> iterated quines are a thing
15:16:59 <stalem> i see. well in any case i meant a sequence that doesn't change from step to step. an unmodified yet modified sequence
15:17:56 <stalem> by iterated quines, do you mean code that generates sources in other languages which eventually comes back or does just using one language count?
15:18:14 <oerjan> i think one language counts, although polyglots are cooler...
15:18:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43843&oldid=43785 * Stalem * (+19) clarification
15:21:26 <stalem> i must say i agree. by any chance would you mind taking a look at my thoughts on the 2 2 ... 2 sequences?
15:21:28 <oerjan> > let f n s=var$s++show(succ n`mod`3)++show s in f"let f n s=var$s++show(succ n`mod`3)++show s in f"0
15:21:30 <lambdabot> No instance for (Integral [Char]) arising from a use of ‘f’
15:21:30 <lambdabot> f "let f n s=var$s++show(succ n`mod`3)++show s in f" 0
15:22:50 <oerjan> > let f s n=var$s++show s++show(succ n`mod`3) in f"let f s n=var$s++show s++show(succ n`mod`3) in f"0
15:22:52 <lambdabot> let f s n=var$s++show s++show(succ n`mod`3) in f"let f s n=var$s++show s++sh...
15:23:42 <stalem> i'll leave you two to it while i fetch some food :P
15:24:20 <oerjan> damn i cannot use lambda because string escape
15:24:55 <oerjan> > (\s n->var$s++show s++show(succ n`mod`3))"(\\s n->var$s++show s++show(succ n`mod`3))"0
15:24:57 <lambdabot> (\s n->var$s++show s++show(succ n`mod`3))"(\\s n->var$s++show s++show(succ n...
15:25:33 <oerjan> int-e: lambdabot is far too succinct these days
15:29:00 <stalem> owell, i think i got your point anyway :P
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15:41:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43844&oldid=43843 * Quintopia * (-187) The rest of this section has been treating the all-twos period 1 oscillator as a known and obvious fact.
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15:47:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43845&oldid=43844 * Quintopia * (+135)
15:48:09 <quintopia> oerjan: i just read the proof and it actually proves these are the only period 1 oscillators. Which is interesting. i'm leaving the link.,
15:48:21 <oerjan> @tell stalem the interesting part is that those are the only ones
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15:53:25 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure skipping the 0 \/ part is _quite_ that easy to justify
15:53:32 <oerjan> but it's probably right, anyway
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16:06:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43846&oldid=43845 * Stalem * (-97) dead link
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16:33:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pada]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43847&oldid=43842 * Martin Büttner * (+5) Add newline to Hello World
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18:01:14 <zzo38> Hello, what do you want please?
18:01:35 <Typical> i just wanted to check the channel
18:02:31 <Typical> i have idea of esoteric programming language
18:02:37 <zzo38> OK. What idea is it?
18:03:29 <Typical> to have only one symbol, count symbols, convert from unary to binary and do something like chicken
18:03:38 <Typical> but i saw this page um wait
18:03:47 <Typical> this http://esolangs.org/wiki/OISC
18:04:11 <Typical> but it was unclear for me and i dont know if its the same or not
18:06:16 <zzo38> I think it is not the same
18:06:46 <zzo38> OISC is a instruction set with one instruction (usually with one or more operands), but what you describe is different
18:07:42 <Typical> thanks, so i will try to write what i described
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18:22:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Typical Username * New user account
18:24:17 <Typical> to prevent stealing my probably not that awesome idea
18:24:21 <quintopia> Please do not write a clone of Unary. Or Ook. Or AAAAAAA!!! or whatever. Make yours stand out somehow.
18:25:23 <Typical> i have to check what is unary
18:26:57 <Typical> nooooooo, its i as i guessed before before
18:28:40 <Typical> someone invented my idea before
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18:29:24 <Typical> thanks @quintopia , at least i didnt not waste my time
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18:33:02 <quintopia> not everything has been done before
18:36:52 <Typical> not everything has been done before but most of the things that i can and want have
18:38:03 <quintopia> did you look at the list of ideas? none of them interest you?
18:49:34 <Typical> could you tell me where i can find this list?
18:52:24 <quintopia> there is a link on the wiki's front page
19:04:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Undergroundmonorail]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43848&oldid=43834 * Undergroundmonorail * (+63)
19:05:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pb]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43849&oldid=43840 * Undergroundmonorail * (+14) lowercase title
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20:33:36 <zzo38> How to make a break signal with xterm?
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20:34:28 <ais523> zzo38: I'm not convinced that a pseudoterminal, which is how xterm implements its terminal, has a break signal
20:34:39 <ais523> the ioctl says that it only works on a serial terminal
20:34:56 <ais523> however, by default the terminal settings are set up so that a break sends SIGINT and control-C also sends SIGINT
20:35:10 <ais523> so if the terminal configuration is at its default, pressing control-C will do the same thing as a break
20:37:05 <zzo38> I am using a program that I have to change it though
20:45:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pb]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43850 * Rdebath * (+328) /* Visibility as it's running. */ new section
20:46:47 <zzo38> Actually I fixed my program now
20:47:08 <zzo38> But still why it shouldn't be allow with pseudoterminals?
20:48:13 <ais523> zzo38: it's because a break is basically the name for mis-encoded data on a serial wire
20:48:24 <ais523> so according to the ioctl docs, it only works on serial terminals
20:48:41 <ais523> it doesn't work on the ctrl-alt-f1 terminal or pseudoterminals, because those aren't using serial communications internally, and so can't have misencoded data
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21:05:56 <zzo38> It looks to me that all features of Z-machine other than sounds and joystick can be implemented using xterm and termios functions; even some of the functions of xterm would help much with it; but many of these are newer features of xterm than had existed in Infocom's times (did xterm even exist at all in their time?)
21:12:08 <fizzie> xterm: "Initial release: 1984; 31 years ago"; Infocom: "Founded: MIT (June 22, 1979); Defunct: May 5, 1989".
21:20:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43851&oldid=43850 * Undergroundmonorail * (+347)
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21:44:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43852&oldid=43851 * Undergroundmonorail * (+313)
21:46:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43853&oldid=43852 * Undergroundmonorail * (+0)
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22:34:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Pb]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43854&oldid=43849 * Undergroundmonorail * (+6) formatting
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23:02:04 <shachaf> when's the new olist coming out
23:02:25 <boily> as in, the list itself is changing?
23:03:02 <oerjan> shachaf: did you get 999 twh
23:04:00 <fizzie> `run perl -MData::Dumper -e 'print Dumper([ "" =~ /()|()/g ]);' # it makes perfect sense, but somehow I wasn't expecting it
23:04:37 <oerjan> fizzie: annoying, isn't it?
23:05:03 <shachaf> oerjan: have you forgotten my shocking prediction
23:05:25 <boily> fizziello. what does that perl do?
23:06:13 <oerjan> fizzie: what you need to do is implement a command so anyone can make HackEgo rejoin twh
23:06:30 -!- HackEgo has joined.
23:06:47 <shachaf> what you need to do is implement a command so anyone can run arbitrary code as root on the machine HackEgo is running on twh
23:07:01 <fizzie> `run perl -MData::Dumper -e 'print Dumper([ "" =~ /()|()/g ]);'
23:07:05 <HackEgo> $VAR1 = [ \ '', \ undef \ ];
23:07:19 <fizzie> I mean, it couldn't be anything else. But I still somehow expected both to be ''.
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23:07:55 <shachaf> I don't know enough Perl to know the meaning here.
23:08:30 <oerjan> more shocking prediction: the tie causes all the gods to start fighting, creating a new rift that swallows belkar hth
23:10:14 <oerjan> most shocking prediction: rich burlew ends oots next strip.
23:10:29 <oerjan> "WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU DIDN'T EXPECT IT"
23:11:06 <oerjan> "I GOT THE IDEA FROM MY FRIEND TAILSTEAK"
23:11:20 <fizzie> shachaf: It's just saying that matching ()|() to an empty string and then asking for the captured groups gives an empty string for the first group, and an undef for the second.
23:11:48 <shachaf> http://rlv.zcache.co.uk/svc/view?design=a9643add-8fab-453e-b62d-7a38397bd220&max_dim=512
23:12:22 <oerjan> yep, that's clearly the kind of tie being gone for here
23:13:13 <shachaf> fizzie: OK, so that's like matchin "a" with /^(a)|(a)$/ ?
23:13:33 <shachaf> Or is it only surprising with empty strings?
23:15:05 <shachaf> oerjan: well, we already got a happy ending
23:15:24 <shachaf> oerjan: so at this point olist is superfluous
23:15:44 * oerjan suddenly realizes two of the webcomics he follows are drawn by richs
23:15:47 <shachaf> not merely fluous like it was before 887
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23:16:18 <oerjan> shachaf: are there any oracle predictions not fulfilled yet...
23:16:38 <shachaf> oerjan: but how many of them got >$1e7 for their comics
23:18:20 <fizzie> shachaf: It only surprised me with empty strings, because I was expecting the unmatched groups to return empty strings.
23:25:21 <oerjan> does the place they're in now count as durkon's dwarven homelands? if not, that part hasn't been fulfilled.
23:25:41 <oerjan> he's posthumous, but in the wrong place.
23:28:14 <shachaf> oerjan: there was also that other prophecy
23:28:53 <ais523> shachaf: the one about belkar
23:29:03 <ais523> hasn't been fulfilled on-camera yet
23:29:12 <ais523> and elan's happy ending cannot happen until the end, by definition
23:29:25 <shachaf> ais523: We've already had a happy ending.
23:29:35 <ais523> shachaf: I don't think that one counts
23:29:46 <shachaf> ais523: It's titled "Happy Ending"
23:29:58 <shachaf> Anyway, I was talking about the prophecy where Durkon "would bring death and destruction upon his people"
23:30:02 <ais523> shachaf: that one definitely doesn't count, because (spoilers) it didn't actually happen
23:30:14 <ais523> shachaf: that one wasn't an oracle prophecy
23:30:18 <shachaf> ais523: It happened from Elan's perspective.
23:30:32 <ais523> no it didn't, in fact Elan realised it wasn't real
23:30:33 <shachaf> ais523: Oh, right, oerjan did specify "oracle".
23:30:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vioz-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43855 * Vioz- * (+111) Created page with "I'm a guy who enjoys code golfing. [http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/users/38417/vioz Here's my PPCG profile]."
23:30:49 <shachaf> None of this comic strip is real.
23:31:07 <ais523> i.e. wasn't real from an in-story perspective
23:31:31 <shachaf> It was real from the perspective of Elan. Later he realized that it wasn't "real" from outside the phantasm, but he still experienced it.
23:31:42 <shachaf> He got everything he wanted.
23:32:10 <shachaf> I don't really buy the whole "real" and "not real" business.
23:33:23 <shachaf> Smullyan talks about this in one of his books. I think _5000 B.C._
00:22:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43856 * SuperJedi224 * (+704) Created page with "'''Loader''' is an upcoming esolang by SuperJedi224, where recursive module loading is the principal mode of recursion and iteration. A load statement loads a module on a cop..."
00:29:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43857&oldid=43856 * SuperJedi224 * (-24)
00:38:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43858&oldid=43857 * SuperJedi224 * (+346)
00:38:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43859&oldid=43858 * SuperJedi224 * (-36)
00:42:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43860&oldid=43859 * SuperJedi224 * (+16)
00:43:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43861&oldid=43860 * SuperJedi224 * (+62)
00:45:23 <oerjan> "I have time enough to drag you down to meet Nergal with me!!"
00:46:15 <oerjan> it occurs to me that malack clearly expected to go to some afterlife. which means he didn't simply stop existing entirely.
00:46:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43862&oldid=43861 * SuperJedi224 * (+4) /* Count down from 10 */
00:47:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43863&oldid=43862 * SuperJedi224 * (+121) /* Example Programs */
00:47:46 <oerjan> which leads to another shocking prediction: he might show up to help durkon one last time.
00:48:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43864&oldid=43863 * SuperJedi224 * (-127)
00:52:27 <zzo38> The caps lock and num lock light on my computer is broken; how can I make it to display on the screen instead?
00:53:13 <boily> hezzo38. what kind of OS/WM/DE/GUI are you using?
00:53:15 <zzo38> There is the program "xkbvleds" but I want to put in the status bar where it is displayed the time and system load
00:53:58 <zzo38> I am using OEM Ubuntu Linux, with i3-wm, a custom status bar program, and no desktop environment.
00:55:40 <boily> sounds like the sort of custom status bar program you can pipe in stuff from scripts.
00:56:47 <zzo38> It is; I wrote the C program to output the JSON data which i3 uses to display the status bar.
01:03:21 <zzo38> But how can I put the keyboard status display on there?
01:07:23 <boily> `unicode UPWARDS WHITE ARROW FROM BAR WITH HORIZONTAL BAR
01:09:14 <boily> zzo38: something like that, or am I completely misunderstanding your problem?
01:09:43 <zzo38> No I mean how to put it on there. I can use ASCII characters just fine, I mean how to make it even display it there!
01:10:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43865&oldid=43864 * SuperJedi224 * (-138) /* "Hello, World!" */
01:12:52 <boily> there's 'xset q' that you can grep for caps/num/scroll lock status?
01:13:18 * boily feels like there's some vital information he's not grasping at all
01:16:41 <zzo38> I hope to do it without making it to execute other programs, because I want to do it per second, or preferably, when the key is pushed only.
01:18:53 <boily> http://stackoverflow.com/a/8429021 ?
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01:28:12 <edtoast_46> please try joining #edtoast .I would greatly appreciate it
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01:53:06 <oerjan> edtoast_46: i hope you're not advertising that everywhere or your channel may soon be ... you know what.
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01:54:03 <shachaf> where's that swatter when you need it twh
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01:55:23 <oerjan> shachaf: you're around. is e spamming generally?
01:55:39 <shachaf> I'm less around than I used to be.
01:55:48 <shachaf> But I haven't seen them elsewhere.
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02:18:37 <zzo38> I made up a simple kind of virtual machine and this is one example code that can be used with it: http://sprunge.us/SSbY
02:43:15 <izabera> is there any valid regex that has no possible match?
02:43:37 <ais523> izabera: depends on what regex operators you allow
02:44:11 <ais523> I'm inclined to say no if you're restricted to the usual set, because you can recursively build up a string that matches via taking the first possible option with each operator
02:44:20 <ais523> but in various sorts of extended regexes it's easy
02:44:34 <izabera> let's start with the basics
02:44:37 <ais523> e.g. if you have lookahead or lookbehind you can easily place two contradictory assertions on the same character
02:44:50 <ais523> all such regexes have a match
02:45:06 <ais523> replace all x* and x? with the null string, x+ with x, x{a,b} with a copies of x, and (a|b) with a
02:45:51 <ais523> depends on the regex parser, I think
02:46:09 <ais523> many would allow "a^" with no matches
02:49:24 <shachaf> I wish regular expressions supported intersection and complement.
02:51:09 <izabera> your shell supports extended globs, they're a different flavour of regular expressions
02:52:08 <izabera> !(a|b) not a nor b @(a|b) a or b +(a) 1 or more a *(a) zero or more a ?(a) zero or one a
02:52:41 <shachaf> What's the complement of /ab/ expressed as a regex?
02:53:24 <izabera> oh sorry i misunderstood the question
02:53:41 <izabera> there's no complement of /ab/ in the classic regex
02:53:50 <izabera> there's that lookahead thing
02:53:54 <shachaf> It's just awkward to write it.
02:54:07 <izabera> ^(?:ab)*$ something like this
02:54:36 <shachaf> OK, I shouldn't say "sure". I think there most likely is.
02:54:38 <izabera> there's no complement in BRE or ERE
02:54:49 <oren> /([^ab]|a[^b]|b)+/
02:54:50 <shachaf> There's no operator, but you can manually compute the complement.
02:55:08 <oren> /([^ab]|a[^b]|b)*/
02:55:21 <ais523> well, if you're allowing [^]
02:55:27 <oren> actually simpler
02:55:30 <ais523> you could just do a character class containing every single character
02:55:34 <oren> /([^a]|a[^b])*/
02:55:40 <shachaf> [^] doesn't give you anything, does it?
02:55:57 <shachaf> Oh, you're still talking about that. Yes.
02:56:01 <ais523> (Perl syntax, other regexes use slightly different escape syntaxes)
02:56:10 <shachaf> What about /[]/ -- is that valid?
02:56:16 <shachaf> ais523 is talking about the previous question.
02:56:26 <oren> /([^a]|a[^b])*a?/
02:56:42 <ais523> in terms of negating regexes, I believe it's always possible but often blows them up exponentially
02:57:01 <ais523> proof: convert regex to state machine; negate state machine (via swapping the success and failure states); convert state machine to regex
02:57:01 <shachaf> I think it might even be double-exponential.
02:57:28 <shachaf> Oh, maybe just exponential. Not sure.
02:58:10 <ais523> my guess is just exponential
02:58:24 <oren> well the most basic case is /abcdef/ in which you have
02:58:41 <oren> [^abcdef]|a[^bcdef]....
02:58:57 <ais523> it gets way harder if the regex isn't anchored
02:59:28 <ais523> (this came up in #esoteric a few months/years ago, there were tons of attempts at it and they were nearly all wrong)
02:59:34 <oren> isn't that the same as /abc/ in terms of what matches?
02:59:54 <ais523> I was just making the lack of anchors clearer
03:00:52 <oren> I once tried to write a regex match function that didn't build a state machine
03:01:09 <ais523> backtracking is easier to write than the state machine version
03:01:14 <ais523> but less efficient worst-case
03:01:27 <shachaf> My regular expression was a full match.
03:01:33 <oren> no, no data structure at all
03:01:38 <shachaf> ais523: That depends on the worst case.
03:01:56 <oren> I mean it simply went character by character through the two strings
03:02:04 <ais523> I'm not sure which method is more efficient average-case
03:02:11 <ais523> oren: how does it handle regexes like aab|aac?
03:02:15 <shachaf> Backtracking can handle things like (([ab]{99}){99}){99} better, someone mentioned.
03:02:33 <shachaf> oren: Well, that's the same as the state machine approach.
03:02:40 <shachaf> Assuming you have multiple "cursors" in the regex.
03:02:51 <shachaf> And you split when you see | and so on.
03:03:00 <shachaf> OK, then it sounds like backtracking. :-)
03:03:24 <oren> yeah except way more inefficient than most implementations
03:03:26 <shachaf> I feel like "backtracking vs. NFA" is a continuüm, not a choice of one of the other.
03:04:06 <ais523> ooh, correctly used diaeresis
03:05:23 <shachaf> The NFA approach to regular expressions is like dynamic programming. You have a graph that you walk one step in each time you see a character, but when two paths through the graph reach the same node, you collapse them.
03:05:49 <shachaf> The backtracking approach keeps the full path, which means you can use backreferences and so on.
03:07:31 <shachaf> But maybe you can keep some amount of state associated with a node, but still not have it be the full path used to reach that node.
03:08:26 <mauris> <ais523> try negating .*abc.* <-- your approach (convert to state machine, negate, convert back) would work fine, wouldn't it?
03:08:42 <ais523> mauris: yes, but it's really hard to do in your head
03:08:54 <ais523> I'm not claiming it's impossible (it's definitely possible)
03:09:04 <ais523> just that nearly all the attempts at it in practice get it wrong
03:09:21 <ais523> I think I eventually came up with a correct solution, but after something like ten failures
03:09:40 <shachaf> OK, I think regexes that support intersection and complement need an double-exponential number of states.
03:09:57 <shachaf> As opposed to just exponential, for regregexes.
03:10:43 <shachaf> But it would be so useful that I'm annoyed that there are hardly any implementations around.
03:10:58 <ais523> shachaf: regex inversion, or regex-to-DFA?
03:11:28 <ais523> hmm, I wonder if anyone's build a regex impl using yacc
03:11:35 <ais523> regexes are a special case of context-free grammars, after all
03:11:37 <shachaf> The problem is that (P&Q) is multiplicative rather than additive.
03:17:48 <mauris> isn't P|Q also multiplicative, in the general case? (you mean in # of DFA states, right?)
03:20:13 <shachaf> It's additive in the number of NFA states.
03:21:37 <HackEgo> maur is the correct spelling
03:22:22 <mauris> i said that three lines ago too, help am i a robot??
03:24:23 <mauris> relatedly i'm TAing a class on finite automata and regular expressions, and i get to come up with multiple choice questions for the exam!
03:24:43 <shachaf> They have multiple choice questions in .be?
03:24:54 <shachaf> I thought those only existed here.
03:26:13 <mauris> super easy to grade, i guess
03:26:23 <mauris> ("so easy a DFA could do it")
03:27:17 <shachaf> mauris: Does your class talk about how to implement intersection and complement efficiently?
03:30:44 <shachaf> mauris: are you a deterministic finite robot
03:31:21 <shachaf> `learn Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
03:31:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'robot': Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
03:31:50 <izabera> can you help meh? ;-; http://arin.ga/R4N7lx/raw why does this not match a(b|c)d ?
03:32:20 <izabera> i'm trying to match regex with regex
03:33:16 <ais523> izabera: the regex language you're using is insufficiently powerful to nest parens
03:33:31 <ais523> so I already know that whatever you've come up with is wrong
03:33:50 <izabera> thanks for the hint, i know that
03:34:04 <izabera> i don't plan to match recursively only with regex
03:37:06 <izabera> it needed an extra group (\|x|y) -> (\|(x|y))
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03:49:47 <shachaf> oerjan: 20:46 -!- edtoast_46 [~Brandon@2602:306:3876:370:9dbe:f358:9656:99fc] has joined #haskell
03:51:44 <oerjan> did e mention eir channel
03:52:09 <shachaf> a different channel with a certain five-character substring hth
03:53:08 <dramforever> I'm trying to design a code golf PL using Chinese characters
03:53:10 <HackEgo> dramforever: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:53:41 <dramforever> but I'm kinda having fun reinvening the wheel
03:54:01 <oerjan> just as long as you don't make it a round wheel, they're so old hat
03:54:23 <shachaf> i've never heard of a round wheel being used as an old hat hthib
03:54:38 <dramforever> I'm pretty sure some common unicode symbols + Chinese could beat APL easily
03:56:14 <izabera> how many characters are there?
03:56:59 <oerjan> > maxBound :: Char -- hth
03:58:03 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plane_%28Unicode%29 wtf
03:58:06 <oerjan> shachaf: apparently "wheel hat" is a disappointingly unrelated thing.
04:00:25 <izabera> ok so there are 1,114,112 valid characters
04:00:30 <dramforever> looks like the majority of the BMP is Unified CJK Han
04:01:18 <dramforever> Chinese characters are so sophisticated that a character is basically a word
04:01:21 <izabera> build a huge lookup table with as many combiantions as possible of these: ><+-.,[]
04:01:57 <dramforever> izabera: why don't you just code in brain***k and 7z your code or something
04:03:08 <shachaf> No, there aren't 1114112 code points in Unicode.
04:03:43 <izabera> "The 17 planes can accommodate 1,114,112 code points[...]" from that page
04:04:11 <shachaf> Maybe they could, but they don't.
04:04:20 <shachaf> Not every number between 0 and 1114111 corresponds to a code point.
04:05:23 <shachaf> For example 0xD800 - 0xDFFF
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04:09:49 <ais523> ooh, it's our first -n spam
04:10:42 <ais523> shachaf: channel mode that lets people not in the channel send to it
04:10:48 <ais523> (look at the timing of the part versus the message)
04:11:03 <ais523> we had a debate a while back about whether -n would increase the amount of spam we got
04:11:22 <shachaf> -n is great because it confuses you about whether HackEgo is in the channel.
04:11:32 <ais523> that was months ago, this is the first spam we've got
04:19:50 <Sgeo> (Warning: nand2tetris spoilers) my assembly code could probably be clearer, maybe some newlines: http://pastie.org/private/lbxz7yz6d5fqe2kavpgq
04:20:05 <ais523> nan2dtetris has spoilers?
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04:20:23 <Sgeo> If you consider project solutions to be spoilers
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04:21:00 <izabera> http://arin.ga/DFEDo3/raw uhm can you try to run this? what am i doing wrong? in the second example i want to keep b\|c together
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04:22:16 <izabera> there's this satan.spawn() function in the idris standard library
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04:41:37 <shachaf> whoa, there are all sorts of different types of grapes
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04:53:14 <mauris> <shachaf> mauris: Does your class talk about how to implement intersection and complement efficiently? <-- sadly, no; it talks about making the DFAs you end up with efficient through state elimination but the algorithms to get there are all naive
04:53:49 <shachaf> if you want to make ais523 ooh or aah, you can say naïve hth
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05:15:50 <oren> you'd have to ask a wine-lover about grapes
05:16:19 <oren> apparently they make wine with grapes that taste like other fruit or something
05:20:11 <shachaf> These grapes taste like delicious grapes.
06:20:27 <zzo38> You discuss whether -n would increase the amount of spam you got. Although you got the spam with the -n it still doesn't make much difference because they did join anyways! So, it is a bit strange kind of a example, kind of.
06:21:17 <ais523> yes, it's not the sort of -n spam I expected
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06:21:27 <ais523> they joined, then parted, then sent the message
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06:23:01 <shachaf> Well, how else would they know that the channel is -n?
06:23:14 <zzo38> With the MODE command
06:24:04 <zzo38> There is no even #ToastIRC channel as far as I can see (MODE tells me no such channel)
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06:44:55 <zzo38> Remember: Make every program a filter!
06:46:03 <shachaf> even if i 'ardly know 'er?
06:47:15 <zzo38> A UNIX-style-filter, where it uses stdin/stdout so you can use it with pipes and redirection and so on.
06:47:40 <ais523> zzo38: what's your opinion of NetHack, in that respect?
06:47:41 <zzo38> A lot of modern programs don't, but ought to, in my opinion.
06:47:46 <ais523> it takes input from stdin and produces output on stdout
06:48:03 <ais523> but it also uses other files of its own, and generates and loads save files
06:48:15 <ais523> and if stdin (or maybe stdout?) is not a terminal it refuses to run
06:48:16 <zzo38> Well, it is reasonable to do that in that case, to use stdin/stdout and various files
06:48:30 <zzo38> Although it ought to work even if they are not a terminal
06:48:39 <shachaf> What's your opinion of programs that seek in stdin, or mmap it?
06:48:45 <zzo38> So that you can use filters to make macros and character conversion and so on
06:49:08 <zzo38> shachaf: Normally it shouldn't, you should try to avoid it. But sometimes it seems like necessary anyways
06:50:12 <zzo38> But you could just use a file and make a `...` to capture a temporary filename perhaps, in the command-line argument, then it won't be a problem to be seeked even if it is a pipe.
06:50:15 <shachaf> zzo38: I think that shells shouldn't have < and >
06:50:22 <shachaf> Instead, there should be commands to read from files and write to files.
06:50:32 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, you could do it without; use cat to read and make another program to write
06:50:37 <ais523> shachaf: there's ready a command for reading from a file
06:50:39 <shachaf> You would use readfile f | filter | writefile g instead of filter < f > g
06:50:49 <ais523> also, tee can be used to write to a file but it also copies output to stdout
06:50:51 <shachaf> ais523: I didn't say there wasn't.
06:51:03 <ais523> shachaf: I know, I'm trying to help you implement your idea
06:51:19 <shachaf> The other issue is that going through a pipe can be inefficient.
06:51:24 <shachaf> I'm not sure how to solve that.
06:52:27 <zzo38> If they are shell-builtins, that might solve it
06:52:36 <shachaf> The point is that they aren't shell builtins.
06:52:53 <shachaf> But maybe a different API would let you attach a file descriptor directly to a pipe.
06:53:41 <zzo38> Yes, I know it isn't, but if they are just shell-builtin command called < and > then it can still be use with syntax of pipe to be consistent even though it isn't
06:53:43 <ais523> this reminds me of revcat
06:53:53 <ais523> which I'm not sure I ever got working
06:53:56 <ais523> it pipes its stdout to its stdin
06:54:01 <shachaf> I also want it to be easy to write to the network and so on.
06:54:13 <shachaf> Right now bash implements TCP sockets as a shell builtin or something, which is ridiculous.
06:54:24 <ais523> so you can do revcat < a.txt | revcat | revcat >> b.txt, and it copies b.txt to a.txt
06:54:38 <shachaf> You can also write | tee (> nc ...) | ... in bash, or somehting along those lines.
06:54:39 <ais523> also I think bash implements TCP sockets as a fake device file
06:54:56 <zzo38> For TCP connect you could use netcat, it probably shouldn't be a shell built-in
06:54:57 <shachaf> ais523: Another command that writes stdin to a file is sponge.
06:55:13 <zzo38> But I think sponge does it delayed? Sometimes this is useful though
06:55:17 <shachaf> I think sponge's behavior should just be an option to the command that writes a file. And so should tee's behavior.
06:55:46 <zzo38> But not so good if you want to write immediately, such as may be useful if you are writing to a device.
06:55:59 <shachaf> The point of sponge is that it's delayed, because people rely on the shell when they don't want it delayed.
06:56:31 <ais523> hmm, /me looks at sponge
06:56:39 <ais523> there are some other interesting-looking programs in the same package
06:56:47 <zzo38> Yes, I know, it is the point sometimes is useful for delayed but sometimes when it isn't.
06:57:04 <shachaf> Yes, that package has all sorts of jams.
06:57:53 <ais523> oh, sponge seems to be designed for atomic output
06:58:00 <shachaf> Yes, that's the point of sponge.
06:58:11 <shachaf> cat file | sed ... | sponge file
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07:00:32 <zzo38> It can be useful for use with hamarc too I suppose, if you want to delete a lump from a Hamster archive for example
07:00:58 <izabera> sponge is a terrible idea...
07:01:34 <shachaf> The people who invented cat apparently think that concatenating files is its main use and displaying them is secondary.
07:02:14 <izabera> x | y | z <- z starts writing when it receives EOF, which means that y is not writing anymore to the pipe, but x can still be active and doing stuff with that file
07:02:52 <zzo38> shachaf: I think they are both primary (although the -v option still ought to be a separate program in my opinion)
07:03:24 <zzo38> The primary feature is to copy zero or more files, and possibly stdin, to stdout.
07:04:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Should grep mmap stdin if it's a file?
07:05:05 <izabera> https://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2010-August/019310.html
07:07:30 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you think programs should check if stdout is a terminal and behave differently?
07:08:53 <zzo38> shachaf: Depends on the program I suppose, but even then probably there should be the way to override it (even if it is a different program which is used to override it; for example cat changes it into a non-terminal, and perhaps another program could be made to do the opposite)
07:18:58 <zzo38> Many of my program I have written is filter, including "hamarc", "bamtovgm", "amigamml", "playmod", "xisynth", "utftovlq", and others.
07:20:03 <zzo38> (You can even do a "echo | amigamml | playmod | aplay" pipeline in order to preview a .XI file, although the .XI already has to be in a (seekable) file for this to work.)
07:23:01 <zzo38> I would want also .NSF player that is acting as a filter program, but one program execute the .NSF and puts the register writes to stdout (although it still has to process some registers internally due to the .NSF program can read status of some registers), and another program will process the register write data into audio, and then you use a third program to output the audio to the speaker (or compress it into Vorbis or whatever).
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07:35:32 <zzo38> Therefore you can replace the parts easily with other stuff, such as instead of rendering the register writes to audio you can make it convert to .VGM or speed up or slow down or transpose the music or replace the renderer with an experimental one or wire it to an actual Famicom cartridge or put a program that tries to make up a optimized .NSF that produces the same output, or something else.
07:39:20 <zzo38> You could also replace the first part with netcat or with the reverse conversion of .VGM or some other format, or to read MIDI input, etc. Even, the last part you can add special effects, write to a compressed file, etc
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07:46:54 <zzo38> Do you like this? At least I believe it is good idea
07:47:27 <shachaf> I don't know about NSF or VGM formats.
07:50:12 <zzo38> The NSF format is a file that contains a 6502 program to write registers for various sound chips used with Famicom. VGM is one format that is used to record the register writes for many different kind of sound chips.
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09:43:52 <izabera> https://github.com/izabera/reggen/blob/master/reggen first attempt at regex parsing with regex... for those who said that it's not possible...
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09:54:27 <ashl> i don't understand :P
09:54:55 <izabera> it takes a regex and prints a string that matches it
09:55:09 <ashl> ok, and who said that was impossible?
09:56:39 <izabera> ais523 | izabera: the regex language you're using is insufficiently powerful to nest parens
09:56:41 <izabera> ais523 | so I already know that whatever you've come up with is wrong
09:57:10 <ashl> that sounds like a different problem
09:57:16 <ais523> I guess the difference is that you're running a regex in a loop, so it's not a regex any more?
09:58:08 <ashl> the usual way of writing down regular expressions is not a regular language
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10:51:17 <boily> `` sed -i 's/the reals,/the reals, robots,/' wisdom/tanebventions
10:51:26 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/tanebventions: No such file or directory
10:51:48 <boily> `` ls wisdom/*anebv*
10:51:53 <boily> `` sed -i 's/the reals,/the reals, robots,/' wisdom/tanebvention
10:52:16 <HackEgo> Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
10:59:07 <boily> I moved the tanebventions over to a new chapter.
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11:44:13 <ashl> it allows arbitrary commands? :/
11:47:02 <nortti> yea, but it's sandboxed and under version control
11:47:08 <zzo38> That is how it works yes (although there are limits and sandbox and so on)
11:47:34 <ashl> what kind of sandbox ooi
11:51:13 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
12:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43866&oldid=43865 * SuperJedi224 * (-4)
12:13:39 <oren> Linux puppypc1015 3.9.11 #1 SMP Sat Jul 27 19:40:54 GMT-8 2013 i686 i686 i386 GNU/Linux
12:14:42 <oren> or at least until purolator decides to deliver my damn computer
12:15:07 <int-e> sorry, but 4GB address space simply aren't enough.
12:15:23 <oren> mine has only 2GB
12:15:52 <int-e> (and the kernel takes between 0.5 and 2GB of that address space away for itself...)
12:16:50 <oren> if linux gets too bloated maybe I'll get minix or freebsd
12:17:55 <oren> actually I have no clue whether the freebsd kernel is bigger or smaller
12:18:44 <zzo38> Is it possible to get gzip(5) manual page, or is only gzip(1) available?
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12:20:40 <ashl> you're saying you want to know about the file format?
12:21:03 <zzo38> Yes, I would want the man page of the file format
12:21:20 <Trioxin> how the hell did i wind up here
12:21:42 <izabera> http://www.redblobgames.com/articles/visibility/ cool thingy
12:21:46 <ashl> Trioxin: a series of bad life choices
12:22:12 <zzo38> Trioxin: Just because it does; that's all.
12:22:21 <oren> presumably you wanted to write unnecessarily complex solutions to simple problems for the sake of fun?
12:22:22 <int-e> I guess you could convert RFC 1952 to a manpage
12:22:35 <Trioxin> so brainfuck stands at the pinnacle of these languages?
12:22:55 <int-e> brainfuck is too simple
12:23:24 <Trioxin> which (if any) are actually useful?
12:23:39 <zzo38> Trioxin: Useful for what? That is what it need to depend on!
12:23:40 <int-e> fungot: are you useful?
12:23:40 <fungot> int-e: ( i'm not familiar with the repl, but
12:23:43 <oren> brainfuck, befunge-98, dc, and funciton are my favorites
12:24:08 <oren> fungot is written in befunge
12:24:08 <fungot> oren: little kids should not be reached" etc. is that where your family is too?) and there i have to admit
12:24:29 <izabera> it just vomits random quotes <.<
12:24:29 <ashl> oren: dc the calculator?
12:24:38 <int-e> they're not quotes
12:24:43 <int-e> (most of the time)
12:24:52 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
12:24:55 <izabera> ok it just vomits something that looks like random quotes
12:24:57 <oren> (fungot is a bot who normally responds when spoken of but seems to be offline right now)
12:24:57 <fungot> oren: i don't know how to switch keyboard leds in c? _o.
12:25:09 <int-e> ^rerere and fungot does other things as well
12:25:09 <fungot> anadna dnf duf nufgnuogntog tod tod eodseo seo sto htoehtreh ret rht ihtnihgnisgn sga ssa saw sew lewllelll
12:25:31 <oren> anyway also i use dc at my work on a regular basis for calculating bitfields
12:26:21 <izabera> does ed count as an esoteric language?
12:26:23 <myname> oren: i am surprised by brainfuck
12:26:24 <zzo38> I sometimes use dc to calculate stuff
12:26:37 <oren> so befunge-98, dc are both actually useful
12:26:38 <zzo38> izabera: I don't know, maybe TECO does instead?
12:27:19 <izabera> zzo38: i wrote this yesterday to delete the trailing empty lines: ?.?+,$d is it esoteric? <.<
12:28:26 <izabera> it's not turing complete... :C
12:28:29 <zzo38> Is it possible to make vim to not use the alternate screen buffer when it is in ex mode, and use alternate screen only for vi mode?
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12:29:26 <fungot> izabera: why does. have a happy one then :) seems ok
12:29:54 <zzo38> Some things may be disputed and argue if it is esoteric programming, including dc and FurryScript and a few others?
12:30:16 <Trioxin> wow there are a ton of these langs. are any actually suitable for making any manor of general purpose applications?
12:30:18 <oren> i dunno dc is pretty much line noise
12:30:39 <oren> Trioxin: befunge-98 definitely is
12:30:52 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
12:31:09 <oren> that's the source of fungot in befunge-98
12:31:09 <fungot> oren: x1 x2 x3) instead of ( truncate 1.1) i want it
12:31:54 <zzo38> I still like dc for a kind of desk calculator I suppose like
12:32:05 <izabera> Trioxin: well someone wrote an irc bot in brainfuck, not sure if that counts... https://github.com/SirCmpwn/bf-irc-bot/blob/master/irc-bot.bf
12:33:51 <zzo38> Yes, such things are possible.
12:34:00 <Trioxin> lol befunge-98 looks like something already processed
12:35:49 <Trioxin> well, I can say that this is the first time since I was 9 that I looked at a programming language and saw gibberish
12:36:00 <oren> Trioxin: it's a two-dimensional language with one-character commands. control flow proceeds across the text in any direction
12:36:11 <myname> did you ever saw malbolge code?
12:37:49 <oren> there should be a category on the wiki for languages with file and network IO capabilities
12:37:53 <zzo38> Other ideas can be like befunge but different kind of geometry or different number of dimensions; there are some other multidimensional esolangs too
12:37:56 <myname> is funcitonnfeatured yet?
12:38:17 <zzo38> oren: Yes maybe it should be, in case of any ones.
12:38:41 <oren> funciton is a good one to feature
12:38:44 <Trioxin> i actually came here after searching around considering a new programming paradigm to learn
12:39:13 <Trioxin> out of curiosity. i don't think I would use any of these
12:39:58 <oren> another good one to learn is assembler
12:40:14 <HackEgo> MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
12:40:36 <zzo38> I know 6502 assembly programming
12:41:08 <myname> i know enough nasm to actually write stuff
12:41:44 <zzo38> Do you know Forth programming?
12:41:50 <int-e> x86 (outdated), AVR...
12:41:56 <zzo38> Do you know 6502 assembly language programming?
12:42:08 <ashl> i've not seen funciton before
12:42:35 <int-e> I don't. I mean I've read a bit of code, but I need an instruction reference to do that.
12:42:36 <myname> i want to write a compiler for it
12:43:37 <Trioxin> I use mostly procedural, oop, and some functional if you count c# and c++. I've been considering things like haskell, lisp, python. sometimes it's difficult to group languages into paradigms. some hybrid would be nice
12:43:52 <Trioxin> well, oop doesn't have to be procedural
12:44:25 <myname> how the hell is c# or c++ functional?
12:44:50 <myname> also: rust is a nice serious language
12:45:17 <Trioxin> they have some functional attributes
12:45:43 <int-e> template programming has been sort-of-functional all these years
12:46:53 <Trioxin> i thought a new paradigm or some hybrid might excite my imagination in machine learning applications
12:47:18 <Trioxin> or help me write less code
12:48:03 <myname> how come haskell is much more popular than curry?
12:48:24 <Trioxin> for instance functions/code being treated as a data type
12:48:41 <Trioxin> i know there's always eval functions but still
12:48:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43867&oldid=43866 * SuperJedi224 * (+41)
12:49:02 <myname> Trioxin: prolog or lisp?
12:49:08 <Trioxin> or easier ways of inference
12:49:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43868&oldid=43867 * SuperJedi224 * (-41)
12:49:48 <Trioxin> prolog seems a bit antiquated. lisp is old but still has a lot of contribution
12:49:54 <Trioxin> and idk what to make of python
12:50:24 <Trioxin> i tried to get into D but there's just not enough code out there to play with
12:50:38 <zzo38> I have used many different programming languages including BASIC, SQL, Forth, TI-92, and others including ones I invented by myself for various purposes
12:50:44 <myname> there is a saying in the rust channel
12:51:11 <myname> D is for C++ developers that like C++ and Rust is for C++ programmers that hate C++
12:52:52 <oren> sometimes though, I yearn for the simple days of Visual Basic 6
12:53:16 <zzo38> I have used VB6 as well
12:53:29 <myname> i didn't like it, though
12:53:30 <ashl> it's interesting how everyone got by without libraries in the olden days
12:53:50 <myname> the only nice thing about vb is the with keyword
12:54:16 <oren> they should make a IDE like VB for Python tk
12:54:38 <myname> and i do think the most hilarious one is "ON ERROR RESUME NEXT"
12:54:50 <oren> where you can drag and drop to create dialogues
12:55:32 <oren> that IDE made it simpler to write a GUI than a CLI
12:56:31 <fizzie> There's that generalised variant of "ON ERROR RESUME NEXT" where you register a segfault/etc handlers that just skip the faulting instruction, maybe setting some result registers to zero.
12:57:13 <Trioxin> these days I make cross platform programs in HTML5 (node-webkit) and do backend heavy lifting in native languages where necessary
12:57:27 <zzo38> Once (in year 2000 actually) I made a program in GWBASIC to allow making program in GWBASIC without line numbers, but you can add line labels into some lines.
12:57:40 <zzo38> But mostly these days I prefer to write program in C
12:58:00 <Trioxin> that way I can port lots of code to mobile via cordova/phonegap
12:58:48 <zzo38> I generally write command-line programs though; they are generally better than GUI
12:59:10 <oren> command line is good. ncurses is better
12:59:14 <Trioxin> i write a lot of CLI as well but mostly for server-side
12:59:29 <zzo38> That's why I wrote AmigaMML; I couldn't find any better program to make .MOD/.XM musics
12:59:40 <myname> server with command line and ncurses clients is best
13:00:16 <Trioxin> i usually make web interfaces
13:00:53 <zzo38> I prefer to use command-line for both server and clients (as well as the standalone programs which don't use a server and client, which would be most of them)
13:02:23 <Trioxin> I'm talking about programs for consumers. i've only rolled one for sale that was CLI
13:03:05 <oren> for users the best option these days is indeed usually a web service,
13:03:36 <Trioxin> yeah. even when I make a desktop app I always do most of the work server-side. no stealing
13:03:44 <oren> but only because Java is such a painful language to use
13:03:45 <zzo38> Wrappers with GUI or whatever can be done, but better computer programming design should be with command-line program in the general
13:04:09 <ashl> no stealing...
13:04:09 <oren> and python/perl don't really work on windows
13:05:22 <Trioxin> i don't code in it but i've seen windowing apps in it
13:05:24 <oren> Trioxin: how many people have python installed though
13:05:32 <zzo38> I prefer to make it local, it is faster, it can be use even if you do not have internet connection on that computer, and you can modify the program if needed to, and also privacy if that is also what you wanted
13:05:38 <Trioxin> they don't have to have py installed
13:06:04 <zzo38> Some programs is useful to use by internet, such as email for example, but most don't
13:06:05 <Trioxin> there are bundlers you could call compilers
13:06:17 <oren> oh? is there a .py compiler for win64 I don't know about
13:06:47 <oren> oh just a bundler. lame
13:07:03 <Trioxin> there's a PHP compiler for .net
13:07:19 <oren> PHP?!! NOOOOOOOOOO
13:07:48 <oren> PHP is cancer in the bones of the internet
13:08:12 <Trioxin> php is fine these days whereas it used to be a disaster
13:08:28 <zzo38> I did write this IRC client in PHP, and also wrote FurryScript in PHP, but later may redo them in C possibly
13:09:07 <oren> oh it's fine... if you like horrible inconsistency and type autoconversions
13:09:31 <Trioxin> a lot of languages have type casting
13:09:44 <oren> type casting is one thing
13:09:58 <oren> autoconversions are something very different
13:09:58 <zzo38> Actually there is many bad thing with PHP; I don't like it much
13:10:06 <Trioxin> auto somevar = "sfsdfs"; in D
13:10:42 <Trioxin> there are some bad things but the security concerns of old are no longer present as far as I'm aware
13:10:51 <oren> I'm talking about when you pass a string to a function expecting a number, and it converts it
13:11:00 <oren> rather than throwing an error
13:12:03 <zzo38> PHIRC and FurryScript aren't even webapps (although FurryScript supports being wrapped with another PHP file that is used on a webpage)
13:12:07 <Trioxin> treat it as a string, its a string
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13:12:07 <myname> in php, $a == $b && $b == $c && $a != $c is possibly
13:13:12 <oren> At my previous job that could happen in prod
13:13:31 <oren> caused hard-to-find bugs
13:14:15 <oren> Trioxin: yes, the solution was to replace a lot of == and != with === and !== respectively
13:14:15 <myname> the question is: why is == and != even there?
13:14:40 <myname> the answer is of cojrse shitty legacy code
13:15:16 <oren> At least Perl has separate string and number compares, as does Bash
13:15:44 <Trioxin> error_reporting(E_STRICT|E_ALL);
13:16:19 <Trioxin> but I won't go far into defending php. it's useful to me though
13:16:39 <oren> oh it is useful
13:17:05 <int-e> https://blog.whitehatsec.com/magic-hashes/ -- I like the term "magic hash"
13:17:07 <zzo38> I prefer programming in C and SQL though, if it can be used
13:17:21 <zzo38> oren: Yes, I think so
13:17:35 <oren> I wrote the CGI code in my website in bash and C
13:18:52 <Trioxin> horrible is a bit of an overstatement depending on use-case. I've written thousands of lines in a project with no problems. Javascript seems to be expanding enormously to try to do everything now though and I find myself writing a lot of it. I still refuse to use node server-side though.
13:19:47 <zzo38> I find JavaScript is better programming language than PHP, although I don't like using it for webpages
13:19:52 <Trioxin> which sounds terrible (writing desktop apps in javascript) but it's really not with things like webgl, webcl, webrtc
13:20:30 <Trioxin> and like I said when I use nw.js if I need heavy lifting on the backend of the app just write some native code
13:21:14 <oren> javascript is better but still bad. the fact that you need all these libraries that get downloaded over and over again from every website is proof of crappiness
13:21:25 <Trioxin> nothing is easier for a GUI. you basically make a responsive web site in the style of a program and you've got both a desktop and mobile app
13:22:16 <Trioxin> oren, libraries downloaded over and over?
13:22:59 <Trioxin> libraries are downloaded once with npm and executed locally
13:23:09 <zzo38> I generally prefer to make command-line program though; it is a much better way of working the computer, especially if it is the UNIX command-line rather than the Windows command-line.
13:23:15 <oren> yes. Jquery, jquery-ui, angular-js etc. each one, each programmer puts a minifd version of it on their own server, which is independent of the copied on every other server
13:24:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[REGXY]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43869&oldid=41343 * 190.23.223.48 * (-19) The generated source code of the implementation reads form STDIN and prints to STDOUT.
13:24:22 <oren> so hundreds of identical jquery.min.js files end up being downloaded
13:24:47 <oren> which is why I use a javascript whitelist
13:25:09 <Trioxin> that's the nature of using a library
13:25:28 <Trioxin> unless you want to blame the browser
13:25:40 <oren> the nature of using a library (in normal languages) is that the same .so file is used by many programs
13:25:53 <oren> (or .dll on windows)
13:25:57 <zzo38> Even with command-line program you can do the programs over the internet, such as with nc and curl and ssh
13:26:53 <Trioxin> download jquery, include in project, get's executed in implementation
13:27:26 <zzo38> I use sprunge for pastebin service since it can be use by command-line and doesn't need to use web-browser (although it can be used with web-browser too)
13:27:29 <Trioxin> zzo38, I've done that before
13:27:31 <oren> but on the user's system, he has 50 jquery.min.js files in the broswer cache
13:28:22 <Trioxin> oren, I suppose that's true and the fault of the browser if it isn't hashing the cache and reusing the files but I'm talking about JS for desktop and mobile apps
13:28:38 <oren> whereas he only has one, for example zlib.so
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13:29:59 <oren> Trioxin: if a user has several apps made by you, do you reuse the same jquery.js file for all of them
13:30:04 <Trioxin> oren, that is one thing that I don't like about browser implementations of javascript. some libs are so used they should probably be distributed with the browser but the browser cache can be hashed as to not redownload the same files
13:30:15 <zzo38> Synchronet door programs can also be written in JavaScript (it also supports door programs written in DOS for compatibility)
13:31:14 <oren> ideally there should be a browser extension for chrome or mozilla that has a tag like <>
13:31:47 <zzo38> Trioxin: No, the real problem is that webpages use a lot of JavaScripts and other stuff
13:32:07 <Trioxin> would be extra coding for something of little consequence in terms of a desktop app
13:33:05 <oren> <script "common-libraries://jquery.min.js"
13:33:15 <Trioxin> zzo38, they use what they need. You don't have to distribute the entirety of a library. I think jquery and others even have builders where you can specify what you want in them
13:33:18 <oren> that would help
13:33:52 <myname> oren: and then every hipster js dev would want his file as a common library
13:34:14 <Trioxin> that's what I was just talking about
13:34:17 <oren> right. but at least you could install them like an addon
13:34:49 <oren> similar to the way the current chrom and mozilla addons work
13:35:11 <Trioxin> i think a more sane solution would just be to hash the files in the cache. that's probably already being done. ISPs do it. I'm not sure about the browsers
13:35:57 <Trioxin> i'd be surprised if browser caches didn't use hashing
13:36:15 <zzo38> <script src="..." common-script="..."> that is another possibility (the "common-script" part would be a URI to identify the script (it can also be a UUID); if the user installs a script with that ID then the "src" is ignored; this occurs even if the user modifies the script so that it uses his own script instead of the one the server specified)
13:36:40 <Trioxin> oh wait nvm they have no way of receiving the hash unless it's in the modern http implementations
13:37:29 <Trioxin> so we just need an HTTP header to specify the hashes of the files we're about to serve
13:38:50 <Trioxin> or common-libraries:// sort of thing. javascript files don't take up a lot of space
13:38:55 <oren> zzo38: I like that
13:39:51 <Trioxin> zzo38, nobody but computer geeks would install such an addon
13:40:27 <Trioxin> best if browsers just kept up to date script versions
13:40:29 <oren> my browser cahache currently contains 30 copies of jquery
13:40:32 <zzo38> I am not suggesting a new kind of URI scheme, nor am I suggesting it has to be specific to scripts; it can also be use with CSS, pictures, documents, etc
13:40:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43870&oldid=43868 * SuperJedi224 * (+1886)
13:41:07 <Trioxin> zzo38, in that case, my hash header would be a better solution
13:41:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43871&oldid=43870 * SuperJedi224 * (+19)
13:41:41 <oren> wait, no only 10. 9 copies of jquery ui and a few other unidentified things
13:41:46 <zzo38> You could avoid having to install such addon if it is made the setting to make automatic installing and/or to have some preinstalled, and then user can override it.
13:41:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43872&oldid=43871 * SuperJedi224 * (+22)
13:42:00 <izabera> oren: total size in bytes?
13:42:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43873&oldid=43872 * SuperJedi224 * (+17)
13:42:43 <oren> each copy is 33000 bytes, so I guess 330000 bytes?
13:42:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43874&oldid=43873 * SuperJedi224 * (+2) /* Special Expressions */
13:42:59 <Trioxin> hashing is more practical and easier to implement by browser manufacturers
13:43:01 <zzo38> So, stuff with a "src" or "href" attribute can also have "common-id" attribute to specify to use a local version if it exists
13:43:02 <izabera> that's allot for the 1970s
13:43:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43875&oldid=43874 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* Instructions */
13:43:30 <oren> no. 1000 bytes was a lot in 1970
13:43:51 <izabera> are you seriously complaining about downloading 330k?
13:43:55 <myname> it's not about the size ...
13:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43876&oldid=43875 * SuperJedi224 * (+10) /* Instructions */
13:44:31 <oren> its about the amount of waste. I cleared my cache yesterday.
13:44:43 <zzo38> Rather than requesting the file from the server anyways (even if only the hashcode is needed)
13:44:51 <oren> multiply this by hundreds of people without js whitelists
13:45:23 <myname> 33k is actually a lot of text
13:45:34 <izabera> jquery does actually a lot of things
13:45:34 <oren> and millions of websites each with their own independent copy of jquery
13:45:50 <myname> most of them is unwanted by me
13:45:55 <Trioxin> I'm surprised the browsers aren't at least using hashes to not store duplicates
13:45:58 <oren> it adds up to billions of dollars wasted
13:46:00 <izabera> myname: then disable your js engine
13:46:26 <oren> (ove rthe course of history)
13:46:37 <myname> i do, but there are sites that actually load just fine, put a white iframe over everything and remove that with js
13:46:48 <izabera> Mozilla is not big because it's full of useless crap. Mozilla is big because your needs are big. Your needs are big because the Internet is big. -- http://www.jwz.org/doc/easter-eggs.html
13:47:07 <Trioxin> i use noscript so I hardly ever even download scripts unless I absolutely have to to view the content
13:47:11 <zzo38> myname: For those things I override the CSS
13:47:40 <myname> zzo38: i would do that if i intend to jse that sites regularly
13:48:01 <zzo38> The inspector can be used to temporarily change it, and Stylish can be used to make them permanent.
13:48:10 <oren> right. but no one is going to make js whitelists SOP
13:48:43 <Trioxin> oh yeah and my cache and cookies (As well as flash and other persistent crap) is deleted each time I leave a site not on my whitelist (a different addon)
13:49:00 <zzo38> Although I also use Stylish to get rid of large margins and so on
13:50:17 <zzo38> Or making fonts smaller, or reducing spacing between things, making icons smaller, etc
13:50:25 <oren> The problem I have isn't particular to do with my own problems. it has to do with the current SOP being harmful. Sort of like how microsoft screwed up big time by having macros enabled by default in Office
13:50:39 <Trioxin> firefox is best browser for mitigating waste and attack vectors with addons
13:51:18 <myname> firefox also has pentadactyl
13:51:22 <Trioxin> even FF mobile which can now use all the desktop addons
13:51:49 <Trioxin> which I have synced to my desktop with a private key
13:51:53 <zzo38> And removing useless headings and useless sidebars and stuff
13:52:22 <myname> zzo38: have you considered print css as your default?
13:53:28 <zzo38> myname: Is that possible? But, no because I would sometimes use forms and so on, and the width of the screen may change and may not be the same as that of the paper, etc
13:54:10 <oren> microsoft should have had a big red warnable button that you had to click before any macros would run.
13:54:14 <zzo38> For MediaWiki sites I can just use the built-in feature to customize the CSS and scripts, but for other things I can use client-side functions.
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13:58:19 <zzo38> Many things that are the default in Firefox aren't very good, so I had to change them by userChromeJS, Classic Theme Restorer, Status-4-Evar, Stylish, CookieKeeper, Policeman, other extensions, userChrome.css, userContent.css, about:config settings, removing toolbar buttons, modifying permissions and SQL schemas of files, and even hexediting libxul.so.
13:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43877&oldid=43876 * SuperJedi224 * (+262)
14:04:02 <zzo38> For example: if(location=="chrome://browser/content/browser.xul") window.losslessDecodeURI=function(aURI){return aURI.spec;};
14:04:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43878&oldid=43877 * SuperJedi224 * (+44)
14:08:02 <zzo38> Hexediting seemed the easiest way to get rid of HSTS
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14:17:12 <zzo38> Even I added the following SQL code: CREATE TRIGGER no_cfduid before insert on moz_cookies when new.name = '__cfduid' begin select raise(ignore); end;
14:19:00 <zzo38> Do you know how to program in SQL?
14:20:04 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
14:20:16 <myname> do you have a ressource?
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14:21:43 <myname> misstype on software keyboard
14:22:14 <zzo38> Information about SQL programming can be found in SQLite documentation
14:23:19 <zzo38> Even the Mandelbrot can be made with SQL.
14:25:53 <zzo38> Many stuff can be access only by webpages but I would want to be able to access it from within SQLite, with a SQLite extension; but unfortunately a virtual table cannot consume the OFFSET and LIMIT clauses like it can with WHERE and ORDER BY clauses.
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14:50:53 <oren> myname: are you using a tablet?
14:59:16 <oren> ah that explains it
15:00:09 <oren> Yeah. I find tablet keyboards hard to type on because I can't feel them
15:01:18 <oren> like you can't run your fingers over the keyboard without pressing buttons
15:01:20 <myname> longpressing annoys me way more
15:02:31 <oren> they should make a touchpad that senses how hard you're pressing
15:03:01 <myname> they should make modern laptops with trackpoints and a good resolution
15:04:42 <myname> i am using a sony vaio p and i love it. it's just too old
15:06:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43879&oldid=43878 * SuperJedi224 * (+188)
15:06:21 <oren> My new laptop has 1366x768 but it has a VGA port which I'll attach my big monitor to
15:06:39 <oren> http://shop.lenovo.com/ca/en/laptops/thinkpad/t-series/t540p
15:06:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43880&oldid=43879 * SuperJedi224 * (+60)
15:07:01 <myname> i do have 1600x768 and that's pretty fine
15:07:22 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
15:08:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43881&oldid=43880 * SuperJedi224 * (+146)
15:09:09 <oren> 'm especially looking forward to having a full-sized keyboard on the go again
15:09:30 <myname> i thought about buying a jorno
15:09:59 <myname> also, i like stuff that folds into compact dimensions
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15:26:53 <Hoolootwo> I have one of those palm foldables and it's kinda crappy
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16:56:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Dennis * New user account
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18:55:02 <mauris_> well it is a programming language
18:55:04 <Melvar> I would say yes, but the tone of that question makes me think you have some specific universe in mind to quantify “anything” over.
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18:56:58 <mauris_> uh i think i killed it trying to find an interesting idris one-liner in /query D:
18:57:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43882&oldid=43621 * Rdococ * (+128) /* Computational class up for debate */
18:58:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43883&oldid=42408 * Rdococ * (+70) /* Structure */
18:59:13 <pikhq> Deewiant: Also, hi Deewiant.
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19:01:29 <Melvar> mauris_: Please don’t try evaluating diverging computations in idris-bot.
19:02:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43884&oldid=43883 * Rdococ * (+20)
19:02:37 <Melvar> Walpurgisnacht: Also sorry if I came off a bit aggressive, I got confused and thought this was in #idris, where that question would have been odder.
19:05:06 <mauris_> Melvar: eh, i would call that a pretty huge flaw in idris-bot. can't you make them time out?
19:05:18 <mauris_> (i'm assuming it's your bot)
19:05:19 <int-e> ( http://last.time.it.was.a.URL
19:05:19 <idris-bot> http://last.time.it.was.a.URL<EOF>
19:05:25 <Melvar> mauris_: It does. Its reaction to the timeout is to kill itself.
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19:06:10 <int-e> sorry, did I do that?
19:06:32 <Melvar> No, I just remembered I forgot to set its memory limit.
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19:07:57 <Melvar> mauris_: I’ve never gotten around to abstracting its repl-connection enough that it could create a new one. It’s not entirely trivial because it sets up a sandbox.
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19:37:52 <oren> on a scale of zero to dr.evil, how evil is this
19:37:55 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm
19:38:49 <oren> representative line:
19:38:51 <oren> if(*g≥‘a’&&*g≤‘f’)*d←*g-‘a’,*dt←TY_INT8;
19:39:58 <oren> not just the font. It's also in my new "display C"
19:40:30 <oren> where == is ≡. and it has smart quotes
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19:42:08 <Melvar> I hope not actually “smart quotes”. Just typographical quotes.
19:42:37 <oren> well the original file is processed by a sed script to generate the htm file
19:42:43 <oren> so sort of smart
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19:45:10 <oren> maybe I should also mangle some of the other operators?
19:46:22 <oren> like I could replace ** with ⁑
19:47:33 <oren> and even [0] with ₀
19:49:58 <oren> or maybe this is a terrible idea
19:50:53 <oren> unless I can somehow make copypaste give the orginal code?
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20:19:26 <zzo38> CWEB will do some things like that for printout but the source file is the same original ASCII format so you can copy/paste it properly.
20:19:47 <zzo38> The fancy format is only if you print it out on the printer
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20:34:44 <oren> I abandoned the non-ascii and jsut put in highlighting
20:38:13 <boily> “... the fruit is believed to be a cure for a wide range of ailments, from rheumatism, snakebites, evil spirits, syphilis, and even tornadoes...”
20:38:47 <int-e> maybe it kills butterflies
20:40:12 <int-e> dang, now I'm wondering which Discworld novel has the butterfly with the fractal wings
20:41:26 <boily> that's a good one.
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20:42:26 <int-e> ah. http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Quantum_weather_butterflies
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20:47:50 <ashl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jtU9BbReQk
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20:53:11 <oren> finally! stuid css
20:54:13 <oren> I figured out an ok hack to mean "spans with a class that aren't inside a span"
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21:06:29 <zzo38> What kind of hack is that?
21:07:23 <oren> pre > span.m91
21:08:28 <oren> pre > span.m31
21:08:37 <oren> {color:maroon;}
21:10:50 <oren> the point is, in ansi to turn something red, you do ^[[91m. in my html, you do </span><span class='m91'>
21:11:44 <oren> but here with nested spans only the outermost should apply
21:12:04 <oren> so that keywords are not colored inside comments or strings
21:14:03 <oren> Ok I think I'm done adjusting the regexes
21:14:44 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/c2htm.sed
21:17:42 <zzo38> Just using regular expression to check for keyword and so on doesn't seem a best way you should tokenize it properly by starting from the beginning and figure out each token.
21:18:10 <oren> right but, see, that would be work
21:18:26 <oren> it works fine like this
21:18:28 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/scrip77.htm
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21:35:46 <mauris> your font is rather bad :(
21:36:07 <oren> which cahracters in particular?
21:36:24 <mauris> i think mostly that lowercase s is very harsh on the eyes
21:37:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Help, WarDoq!]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43885 * Dennis * (+3568) Created page with "'''Help, WarDoq!''' is an [[esoteric programming language]] created by Programming Puzzles & Code Golf user Dennis. It was designed to address the plentiful shortcomings of [..."
21:37:26 <oren> Ah. that's the way my handwritten s looks
21:37:27 <mauris> most other things are probably up to personal taste, but i'd definitely give that one more of a defined s shape
21:38:13 <oren> I used to write s as a backwards z all the time
21:38:32 <oren> I think my current s is overcorrection
21:39:14 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
21:40:00 <oren> that's all the characters I have.
21:41:39 <oren> As you can see the different shape helps a lot to distictify ŚśŜŝŞş
21:43:10 <mauris> what's your font-making tool of choice?
21:43:43 <oren> I made this one using fontstruct.com
21:44:02 <oren> (a website, not a DOS executable)
21:45:10 <zzo38> A DOS program probably you will not put ten letters anyways
21:45:54 <oren> it would have to be fntstrct.com
21:46:08 <boily> I miss the days of FONTST~1.COM names.
21:47:07 <oren> If you ever recover files off a typical flash dirive, you can go back to 8.3 names
21:48:24 <Sgeo> How do you have a three-tenth of a name?
21:49:39 * boily fractionally mapoles Sgeo
21:51:45 <FireFly> oren: hm, why not have the empty braille character be actually empty?
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21:52:31 <oren> eh, then it would be the same as space and nbsp
21:52:54 <FireFly> It would, yes, but otherwise you need to special-case the empty character when you want to use braille as pseudo-pixels
21:53:03 <FireFly> which, given the design of the braille characters, I guess is the intention here
21:53:32 <oren> maybe I should just have them be the same...
21:53:46 <FireFly> I'm not sure what the use of your current glyph for that would be
21:55:13 <oren> god fontstruct takes a long time to load 2000 characters
21:55:49 <oren> at least it's flash and not js
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21:59:21 <zzo38> I prefer METAFONT for printer font designing
22:00:15 <izabera> metafont sucks but nobody wants to admit it because they love knuth
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22:00:59 <zzo38> No, METAFONT is good
22:01:10 -!- hppavilion[1] has joined.
22:01:29 <izabera> i found it pretty unusable
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22:02:12 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: well izabera is trying to start a fight with zzo38, does that count?
22:02:41 <izabera> i'm not trying, i already succeeded
22:02:54 <oerjan> yes, but you're still doomed imo hth
22:03:37 <izabera> tex and derivatives are literally the only programs in the world that use type 1 fonts
22:03:45 <oren> JS is fine by itself but using JS+CSS+the DOM to do anything is completely fail
22:03:47 <izabera> they're incompatible with everything else
22:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> I want it to be more than just stylization (mostly because I can't art)
22:04:23 <izabera> and to design fonts you need a gui, not metafont
22:05:21 <oren> to design fonts all I really need is something like paint where I can set each pixel to on or off and drag the width around, but noooo....
22:05:28 <zzo38> METAFONT does support the online display too
22:05:54 <zzo38> That's for printer fonts though. For screen fonts I prefer a tile editor
22:06:13 <oren> instead apparently most programs for fonts instead make you draw curves??!?
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22:06:38 <hppavilion[1]> And all my friends at the programming company I work for are offline
22:06:41 <izabera> drawing curves is infinitely better than writing code to draw curves
22:07:03 <hppavilion[1]> Thus preventing me from asking for help with design
22:08:11 <oren> izabera: well yes, it is better to draw curves that program curves, but I just want to decide whether each pixel is on or off
22:08:26 <oren> which metafont also doesn't support
22:08:28 <izabera> that's even more infinitely better
22:08:59 <zzo38> Actually METAFONT does support pixel on/off too
22:09:20 <zzo38> As well as both brush strokes and outlines (some people also say METAFONT does not support outlines, but they are wrong)
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22:09:51 <zzo38> Just turning individual pixels on/off isn't very good for printer fonts though
22:09:55 -!- Owner_ has changed nick to Guest34673.
22:10:08 <zzo38> But such thing is good for screen fonts.
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22:11:18 <ashl> wonder why hppavilion
22:11:50 <izabera> macbook was probably taken
22:12:17 <ashl> what has that got to do with models of computer
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22:12:38 <zzo38> A standalone client is certainly going to be better than WebChat
22:14:21 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: nope what
22:14:42 <hppavilion[1]> I cleared the window so I don't know what you're talking about
22:15:27 <oerjan> i see. don't use that window clear command again hth
22:16:11 <oerjan> i haven't needed that in a long time
22:16:46 <oerjan> or maybe i would, if redrawing actually fixed anything
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22:28:15 <boily> hppavellon[1]. why the [1]?
22:28:42 <oren> I've updated my font. With more liquid crystal numbers and with new cursive letters!
22:29:19 <oren> ⓐⓑⓒⓓⓔⓕⓖⓗⓘⓙⓚⓛⓜⓝⓞⓟⓠⓡⓢⓣⓤⓥⓦⓧⓨⓩ are assigned as cursive letters
22:30:17 <mauris> oren: U+1D434 etc. exist!
22:30:25 <hppavilion[1]> And... my browser won't render oren's cursive letter message
22:30:42 <oerjan> `learn hppavilion[1] is described in the footnotes.
22:30:44 <mauris> (that's a weird little unicode block.)
22:30:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion[1]': hppavilion[1] is described in the footnotes.
22:31:03 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
22:31:29 <oerjan> wait, he didn't always use the brackets?
22:32:05 <hppavilion[1]> the [1] is exclusively an IRC thing (and maybe later an other programmer thing thing)
22:32:25 -!- hppavilion[1] has set topic: The channel where "The channel where is surrounding its own quotation" is surrounding its own quotation | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esangs.org/.
22:32:37 <mauris> do you have an (i'm afraid to ask) hp pavilion
22:32:49 <mauris> esangs.org good url shortener
22:33:07 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: A) I used to have one B) I didn't realize that'd happen. I'm using a new client
22:33:18 -!- oren has changed nick to DellLatitudeD620.
22:33:21 -!- mauris has set topic: The channel where "The channel where is surrounding its own quotation" is surrounding its own quotation | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> And since when have I had permission to change the subject?
22:33:33 <boily> `learn hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
22:33:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion[1]': hppavilion[1] se describe en las notas al pie. ¿Porqué no los dos? Nadie lo sabe.
22:33:55 <hppavilion[1]> I wouldn't think that'd be a permission we'd be trusted with
22:34:17 <oerjan> "Although porque, por qué, por que, and porqué have related meanings, they are not interchangeable." ARGH
22:34:28 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaurgh.
22:34:29 <hppavilion[1]> The 1 is actually just from my MC account when my original standard username, hppavilion, was taken
22:34:46 <boily> why don't we have a Venezuelan in the chännel when we need them...
22:34:48 -!- mauris has set topic: The channel where "The channel where \"The channel where \\\"The channel where \\\\\\\" | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
22:36:56 <olsner> boily: why a venezuelan in particular?
22:38:44 <boily> olsner: because we usually get visited by mislead Venezuelans. sometimes Colombians, too.
22:38:55 <HackEgo> [U+FF2F FULLWIDTH LATIN CAPITAL LETTER O] [U+FF2B FULLWIDTH LATIN CAPITAL LETTER K]
22:38:58 <mauris> hppavilion[1], characters your font can't handle
22:39:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Niblet]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43886&oldid=43782 * DigitalCannon * (+75)
22:39:10 <olsner> boily: weird, are they looking for the other kind of esoterica?
22:39:18 <olsner> maybe that's big there
22:40:12 <olsner> hmm, if esoterica is really big, wouldn't that make it unesoteric
22:40:20 <boily> olsner: no, they browse channels that start with #es*.
22:40:33 <oerjan> olsner: there's a venezuelan linux distribution known as canaima. somehow our channel is in their list of chats.
22:40:55 <olsner> this must be the channel for oteric in spanish
22:41:18 <oerjan> olsner: no, that's #oteric.es, i thought i'd made that clear once.
22:41:28 <olsner> not to me you haven't, but ok
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22:41:44 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure i put it in the topic.
22:42:24 <oerjan> boily: i'm not entirely sure of that #es* explanation, since i've never actually seen where in the canaima menus or whatever they find us.
22:43:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43887&oldid=43882 * Hppavilion1 * (+388) Posed my counterargument
22:44:33 <boily> oerjan: it's thausible.
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22:49:18 <tswett> `le/rn os/Operating system.
22:54:03 * oerjan finds that wisdom disturbing.
22:55:05 <mauris> `le/rn os/The accusative plural of us.
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22:56:35 <oerjan> `learn FurryScript is the hairiest of all esoteric languages.
22:56:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'furryscript': FurryScript is the hairiest of all esoteric languages.
22:56:50 <HackEgo> Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
22:58:20 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
22:58:40 <oerjan> mauris: your version is also somewhat wrong. the wisdom should normally make sense without the key.
22:58:57 <oerjan> of course you then managed to find one of the exceptions, bah
23:00:06 <mauris> "os is the accusative plural of us." would be good, but hackego commands are scary, and i won't mapole them with a 10-foot mapole
23:00:24 <oerjan> i feel that `le/rn instead of `learn is subtly eroding the wisdom format.
23:00:31 <zzo38> Then use a 10 metre mapole instead
23:00:38 <oerjan> `le/rn os/os is the accusative plural of us.
23:01:02 <oerjan> of course since it ends in -s, `learn is not quite appropriate there.
23:01:28 <oerjan> boily: i don't think we've ever established the length of the mapole
23:01:49 <oerjan> what is the mapole's lengt and body weigh
23:02:05 <mauris> clearly os is also the plural of o, and o is the ablative of us, and the diagram commutes.
23:02:24 <oerjan> but the ablative of os is is
23:02:55 <oerjan> and the plural of is is es
23:03:13 <oerjan> and the ablative of es is ibus hth
23:04:12 <oerjan> hm actually os isn't the plural of o unless you switch language
23:04:14 <zzo38> I had idea of a kind of program language that you can define rules and cards of Magic: the Gathering and of other card games, possibly you might define the card like: _:Counterspell a :CardDef; :name "Counterspell"; m:cost "UU"; :type :instant; :text "Counter target spell."; :spell-ability [:counter [:target :spell]].
23:04:22 <zzo38> Or maybe a bit different
23:04:39 <mauris> oerjan: that was my bad joke htdnh
23:04:42 <oerjan> the plural of o is [oi]nes
23:05:54 <oerjan> commutatis commutandis
23:08:26 <boily> oerjan: a regulatory mapole mesures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:09:42 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
23:10:13 <oerjan> `learn_append mapole A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
23:10:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'mapole': A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
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23:30:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43888&oldid=42927 * SuperJedi224 * (+13)
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02:01:15 <zzo38> Do you like tsume shogi?
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02:20:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Help, WarDoq!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43889&oldid=43885 * Dennis * (+1)
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02:41:56 <oren> I recently got the angre video game nerd video game for WiiU
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04:36:18 <pikhq> Oh for the love of fuck WHAT IS GOING ON. LANG is somehow getting explicitly set to "C" somewhere between my profile getting loaded and my X session getting loaded.
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05:03:51 <zzo38> I am making a robotfindskitten game with the new VM that I had recently invented; please tell me if you have some more idea what not-kitten message to add
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05:06:52 <Hoolootwo> you should add all of the not-kitten messages from the standard game, plus suggestions
05:07:37 <zgrep> zzo38: http://lpaste.net/raw/139475
05:08:43 <zgrep> Seems to also be here? https://github.com/oriontransfer/RobotFindsKitten-python/blob/master/messages.rfk
05:09:40 <zzo38> I have some of my own to add too though. But, I intend to put mine in alphabetical order, and also to put them in uppercase due to the way that the text packing of this VM is working, and limit the text length since this VM uses a screen size of only 80x25 tiles (the rest of the screen is not used by this VM)
05:10:07 <zzo38> That's OK though I have started to add them
05:10:59 <zgrep> "It's cute and furry, but not kitten."
05:11:50 <zgrep> "'Meow', says the office chair and it rolls around."
05:12:35 <zzo38> The pieces don't move in this game
06:04:31 <zzo38> This is the program so far: http://sprunge.us/TIDA
06:25:06 <zzo38> [:counter [!_:a :target :spell]; :replacing [:match [:zone-change [:to :graveyard]]; :if-reason [:counter _:a]; :replace [:zone-change [:to :library; :who [:owner-of _:a]; :position :top]]] # Or maybe not quite like that
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07:30:44 <myname> why did you invent a vm?
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09:25:13 <zzo38> What should be the distribution of the line, char, and byte offset numbers in the error message of "isutf8 /dev/urandom"?
09:42:22 <zzo38> zgrep: I did add "It's cute and furry, but not kitten." though, but the second one I don't want to because the pieces won't move other than the main robot
09:43:40 <zzo38> O, for some reason the first time I run this VM after xterm opens the margins don't get set properly but afterward it works.
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11:54:15 <fizzie> "Alas, the customer fell into one of the common gotchas when writing p/invoke: They confused BOOLEAN and BOOL. BOOL is a 32-bit integer, whereas BOOLEAN is an 8-bit integer." But of course.
11:58:46 <fizzie> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2015/08/17/10635549.aspx
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12:09:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43890&oldid=43769 * Rdebath * (+333) Reduce apostrophes?
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12:56:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Help, WarDoq!]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43891 * Rdebath * (+181) /* Fail. */ new section
12:58:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Pb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43892&oldid=43853 * Rdebath * (+90) /* Visibility as it's running. */
13:05:26 * ashl wonders if boily has highlights for those greetings
13:07:26 <quintopia> if he doesnt by now, its a major oversight
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13:46:46 <boily> I'd like to, but I don't know how.
13:48:16 <boily> I should breakfast too. had coffee, did laundry, time to eat.
13:50:34 <quintopia> weechat seems hard to find documentation for
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14:31:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[.box]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43893&oldid=14509 * 174.93.62.143 * (-1)
14:43:20 <izabera> https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck/blob/master/bitwidth.b how long is this supposed to take on an interpreter with 8bit cells?
14:44:05 <izabera> mine displays the text pretty quickly, then sleeps for a while, then prints the newline and exits
14:48:13 <quintopia> wow. no one has ever successfully run that program to completion before!
14:49:03 <quintopia> (i'm kidding. are you using the fastest interpreter according to rdebath's table?)
14:50:52 <izabera> i'm using one i wrote myself
14:51:49 <quintopia> then it takes how long it took! but probably longer than the optimized interpreters
14:52:41 <fizzie> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Rdebath#Performance_Matrix
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15:07:50 <ashl> izabera: is yours written in bash
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15:32:00 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/philipl/pifs
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16:13:54 <tswett> Hey all y'everyone. I came up with a cryptic crossword clue.
16:14:08 <tswett> Job description: Endless mixed investigations (6).
16:14:55 <tswett> Oh crap, that doesn't work. Lemme release a bug fix.
16:15:29 <tswett> Job description: A variety of endless investigations (6).
16:19:27 <oren> holy shit I actually beat a level!
16:22:13 <oren> izabera: how optimized is it, and what language?
16:30:04 <ashl> a level of what?
16:34:19 <oren> the AVGN video game
16:39:15 <oren> Maybe I should fix up my bf interpreter so it works and test it
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17:00:07 <izabera> ashl: yes oren: it reduces: ++[-]++ to 1 instruction, >>--++<< to nothing, [->+>++>+++<<<] to 1 instruction, [>+<[-]] to an if
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17:07:26 <izabera> (1 instruction in bash can assign more than a variable)
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17:19:51 <ashl> izabera: you seem to be fond of bash
17:20:46 <int-e> oren: what kind of level did you beat?
17:25:47 <izabera> did you know that 10 to the 12th power microphones = 1 megaphone
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17:36:56 <boily> quintopia: QUNTHELLOPIA!
17:37:09 <oren> "blizzard of balls" level
17:39:30 <boily> quintopia: security upgrading my laptop. will be available tantôt.
17:39:41 <boily> helloren. that sounds squishy and painful.
17:39:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43894&oldid=43887 * Hppavilion1 * (+130) /* A Folder RPG */ new section
17:40:40 <mauris> tswett, i'm thinking "synonym for investigation -> chop off final letter -> pluralize -> anagram" and it's a 6-letter job description?
17:41:10 <tswett> mauris: you're very much on the right track.
17:41:18 <mauris> so without the plural -s or -es, it's 4 or 5 letters, and then with the final letter, the original word is 5 or 6 -- probe, search?
17:42:17 <tswett> I could tell you the actual interpretation.
17:43:01 <mauris> "searcs" doesn't seem to anagram to anything. eh maybe give me a push in the right direction
17:44:14 <mauris> (cryptic crosswords are kind of bullshit imo. it's like word games crossed with mind reading)
17:44:30 <boily> obiously it's an "acress": a woman who acres.
17:49:45 <mauris> tswett, i feel like "chop off final letter" needs to be before "pluralize" or they'll just cancel each other out, and "-> ... -> ... -> plural" doesn't work or else the answer is a plural... hm
17:50:49 <tswett> They don't always cancel out. If you take "acress", then pluralize and chop off the last letter, you'll end up with "acresse".
17:51:59 <mauris> yeah, earlier i was looking at "study" -> "studies" -> "studie"... -> "duties"?
17:52:36 <mauris> that's almost a job description, in a very abstract way
17:53:22 <mauris> maybe, of course, the word i need isn't on here: http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/investigation?s=t
17:53:55 <ais523> tswett: how do you know what the plural of "acress" is, given that it isn't a real word?
17:54:34 <tswett> mauris: that's the answer. DUTIES.
17:54:56 <tswett> ais523: I assume "acress" is pronounced as I would expect and pluralizes regularly.
17:55:13 <mauris> ais523, clearly tswett passes the Wug Test
17:56:10 <boily> quintopia: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH. "Could not connect to the Steam Network."
17:56:49 <boily> tswellott. "acress" is a made up word that I made up on the spot of making it up.
17:56:55 <b_jonas> an acress is an actress without a tee
17:57:20 <boily> b_jhellonas. I wouldn't be surprised if you were dictionarily right. English is weird.
17:58:13 <boily> quintopia: huh. just had to insist and be intimidating. it logge in.
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18:02:53 <int-e> boily: I get that a lot, too; it takes me two or three time to finally connect, typically. Which means I have to look up the password because the stupid client "forgets" it the first time connection fails.
18:03:21 <int-e> s/"forgets"/discards/
18:08:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Beta-Decay * New user account
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18:18:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43895 * Beta-Decay * (+2000) First post
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18:27:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43896&oldid=43895 * Beta-Decay * (+280)
18:28:30 <oren> Oh, now it work!
18:29:40 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm
18:31:45 <izabera> also what's the advantage of using loop{ }
18:31:54 <oren> looks better to me
18:32:38 <oren> this interpreter for brainfuck uses space below the call stack as code, loop stack and data space
18:32:51 <izabera> which compiler uses #include "" for its core libraries?
18:32:52 <zgrep> My eyes seem to avert themselves from that font...
18:33:22 <oren> uh... all of them
18:33:36 <oren> well it comiles
18:33:41 <ais523> izabera: although #include includes header files, not libraries
18:33:47 <ais523> the libraries are linked by seeing which functions you actually use
18:33:53 <fizzie> "(char*)&c-1000" I'm weirded out.
18:33:55 <ais523> this means that if you declare the functions yourself, and use no header files
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18:34:10 <ais523> it'll still work as long as the declarations are correct
18:34:14 <b_jonas> oren: though there's a problem with the font as used there, at least one my side:
18:34:27 <oren> i mean there are way worse things going on here than bad includes
18:34:29 <izabera> at least highlight loop and ei
18:34:46 <b_jonas> oren: it's subpixel anti-aliased, probably because the whole thing is shifted a non-integer number of pixels horizontally
18:34:52 <ais523> fizzie: return (void *)(uintptr_t)(offset + __builtin_offsetof(struct user, regs));
18:35:07 <b_jonas> oren: it's visible only on the white letters
18:35:15 <b_jonas> oren: is there something you can do to fix that?
18:35:37 <oren> I don't know. the font is set to 12px
18:35:42 <b_jonas> oren: as for style, the equal sign glyph looks strange, the two bars are too far from each other
18:35:50 <fizzie> ais523: Well, okay, but presumably you know what you're pointing at. This is just a regular int c;.
18:35:53 <ais523> tbf that's a little less insane than it looks, because it's dealing with values in registers
18:35:57 <izabera> did you forget to implement , ?
18:36:07 <ais523> yeah that's ridiculous (and also violates the standard)
18:36:30 <b_jonas> izabera: loop{} looks like a rubyism to me
18:36:30 <ais523> fizzie: the pointer doesn't actually point at anything really, it typically comes out to a small integral void * value
18:36:56 <ais523> but this is because there are a ton of different address spaces involved (at least three of them), plus the code doesn't have enough information to know what's integers and what's pointers
18:37:00 <oren> b_jonas: really? I don't know ruby
18:37:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43897&oldid=43896 * Beta-Decay * (+49)
18:37:36 <b_jonas> oren: in ruby, the standard library has a function called loop, so you can write infinite loops as loop { puts "hello, world"; };
18:38:29 <b_jonas> (you can use a while loop instead, of course)
18:40:06 <izabera> how does that allocate memory?
18:40:08 <oren> anyway the main conceit of this is to take the address of sthg on the stack, subtract 1000, then use the memory below that as we please
18:40:15 <quintopia> boily: ok. had to reboot and install updates ,but i'm connected again
18:40:33 <b_jonas> oren: as for the font, it also looks a bit vertically crowded for me, that is, there's too few space between lines
18:40:56 <oren> izabera: what what
18:41:23 <b_jonas> oren: also, isn't the dot and comma to similar, and the comma and semicolon too simialr?
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18:41:59 <oren> on my screen , looks twice the size of .
18:42:22 <b_jonas> oren: well, the comma is seven pixels and the dot is four
18:42:25 <b_jonas> so there is some difference
18:42:28 <b_jonas> but I'm used to a bit more
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18:43:03 <oren> my font, and also the bf interpreter I wrote
18:43:06 <b_jonas> in my font, the dot is four pixels, the comma is ten
18:43:16 <b_jonas> though that's a larger font, admittedly
18:43:17 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bfim.htm in case you missed it
18:44:00 <quintopia> wow, i can see why we're discussing your font. i can hardly read it.
18:44:10 <b_jonas> oren: dunno, it's possible that the font is just too small for me, which is why I find some characters too similar
18:44:37 <oren> izabera: Anyway, the stack grows downward, and none of the functions use more than 1000 bytes of it, so the memory i'm using is safe
18:45:10 <oren> b_jonas: do you by any chance have a high dpi monitor?
18:45:48 <quintopia> is it usual for a bf interpreter to use a stack to track bracket locations?
18:45:51 <b_jonas> afterall, this is only 9x16, whereas my font is 10x20
18:46:06 <b_jonas> oren: should I send a screenshot?
18:46:37 <oren> that would help.
18:47:09 <oren> quintopia: I don't know. I came up with it a while ago but assumed it was obvious idea
18:48:29 <quintopia> oren: i agree with izabera that that data=code=(char*)&c-1000 looks dangerous.
18:48:30 <oren> about the space between lines, I deliberately made that small for this font because I like having a lot of SLOC onscreen at once
18:49:06 <oren> it is entirely illegal and only works under certain cpus and OS's
18:49:36 <oren> specifically linux x86 and linux x64 it works
18:50:10 <quintopia> so no intention of creating cross-platform interpreter then
18:50:29 <oren> it is completely undefined behaviour to acess data in this manner
18:50:32 <quintopia> i feel like one could write malicious code to break it
18:51:10 <oren> although i'm not sure how
18:51:27 <fizzie> I'm not weirded out by nasty tricks, I'm weirded out because there seems to be no reason for it in this case.
18:51:39 <b_jonas> oren: http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/oren-neoletters-ss0.png
18:52:07 <oren> the specific hack here is that calloced memory doesn't auto-extend on write, whereas the stack does
18:52:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? yuo're on #esoteric
18:52:51 <oren> so you can keep moving right and the tape will autoextend without copying anything with realloc
18:53:18 <b_jonas> oren: you could malloc a new auto-extending section, though that's also hard to do portable among systems,
18:53:33 <oren> yeah there is definitely antialiasing going on there
18:53:40 <oren> which I don't hav
18:53:51 <b_jonas> oren: and in both that case and this case you have to make sure to occasionally access the data if the code contains like a hundred thousand > commands followed by a +
18:54:00 <b_jonas> oren: but only subpixel antialiasing
18:54:08 <b_jonas> oren: the non-white characters are fine
18:54:26 <b_jonas> no wait, yellow aren't good either
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18:55:04 <b_jonas> well, it looks like it's shifted to the right by part of a pixel
18:55:10 <b_jonas> probably the html is layed out that way
18:55:12 <quintopia> b_jonas: what if the code contains simply [>+]
18:55:27 <b_jonas> quintopia: that would eventually run out of memory, sure
18:55:32 <fizzie> The read(0,&c,1); is another thing that seems like gratuitously designed to break on non-little-endian systems, compared to just calling getchar.
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18:56:13 <fizzie> The stack generally doesn't auto-extend very much, compared to how much memory there would be available via regular memory allocation.
18:56:30 <b_jonas> quintopia: what mallocing a new area could help in is catching accesses to the left of the starting point of the tape
18:56:33 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/wskfkflasndvfals.png
18:57:31 <quintopia> b_jonas: aye. it's good to know where the bounds are.
18:57:59 <oren> it doesn't let you go beyond the bounds
18:58:12 <oren> there is ifs to catch that
18:58:32 <oren> }ei(*ip=='<'){if(dp<data)dp++;
18:59:32 <b_jonas> oren: did you manage to add more characters to the font though?
18:59:54 <oren> There are 2080 or so
19:00:31 <int-e> } else if (*ip == '<') { if (dp < data) dp++;
19:01:03 <oren> int-e: you don't like my spacing?
19:01:18 <b_jonas> that's way more than mine. I guess it adds a lot that you have cyrillic or greek characters (iirc)
19:01:40 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
19:02:31 <b_jonas> that's a lot of latin characters
19:02:49 <oren> yeah I did LAtin1,b and IPA
19:03:34 <b_jonas> I don't have all the crazy characters from the 0x0200 block, the ones used only for transcribing African languages or whatever stuff
19:03:50 <b_jonas> do you have all letters for Vietnamese?
19:04:20 <oren> Does that require latin C or D?
19:04:23 <b_jonas> I don't have those either, though it wouldn't be vary practical either, if I wanted Vietnamese I'd need a font with slightly more space above characters
19:04:25 <oren> I didn't do those
19:05:05 <b_jonas> also, you have basic Greek
19:06:11 <b_jonas> not all the accented greek letters though. I think those add a lot, if you're counting characters.
19:06:12 <oren> and hebrew but no vowel points
19:07:25 <oren> but for example you can write א₀
19:07:29 <b_jonas> hmm, do you have \x{2009} ?
19:07:45 <b_jonas> I don't see it listed, but maybe it's hiding invisible
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19:08:12 <oren> my punctuation is still spotty
19:08:48 <b_jonas> I'd recommend adding \x{2009} and other spaces. they're very easy to implement in a monospaced font.
19:09:08 <b_jonas> I see you have lots of punctuation and graphics characters
19:09:19 <b_jonas> do you have all of cp437, including the control characters?
19:10:24 <zzo38> Do you have the DEC technical set?
19:10:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think I have most of it, probably all
19:10:54 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if I've added the snowman
19:11:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: what character is the DEC snowman?
19:11:24 <fizzie> I've mentioned it quite a few times, but since it's kind of topical to the discussion, there's a bitmap font at http://zem.fi/rfk86/ too. No attempt to get good character coverage, though, since it's only for that page.
19:11:26 <b_jonas> and is that officially in the set?
19:11:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think I automatically have most of it though from just cp437
19:11:54 <MDude> I shoudl make a font on English characters where each one is altered to look more like the most ancient known ancector glyph of it.
19:11:55 <oren> I have most of them
19:12:12 <MDude> So an A would look like an upside down ox head.
19:12:58 <oren> I think I may have forgotten to add some to the demo page
19:13:23 <b_jonas> oren: what? I thought the demo page was automatically generated from all characters you have
19:13:31 <MDude> But then, I also want to make the most ridiculous text encoding system.
19:13:38 <b_jonas> I should make a demo screenshot automatically generated by the wya
19:13:50 <oren> I just keep adding them
19:14:32 <oren> yeah the editor says I have 2086 in total
19:14:44 <MDude> Where isntead of supporting fonts or character sets at all, it has each document start with a pallete of glyphs.
19:14:54 <b_jonas> hehe, you have all the obsolate greek letters, but not the accented greek letters
19:15:01 <MDude> So even switching between fonts qould need a conversion table.
19:15:24 <oren> Mdude: that would be nice for cross platform compatibility
19:15:26 <zzo38> I don't see any snowman in the DEC technical set?
19:15:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I think it's on the letter G
19:16:04 <oren> yeah I did forget to add some
19:16:04 <MDude> It'd pretty much by an image file format that's biased toward typed documents.
19:16:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you mean the DEC special character set which terminal emulators have?
19:16:40 <oren> 239b thru 23ae are supported
19:16:57 <zzo38> There is the VT100 character graphics set and the technical set, they are different
19:16:59 <MDude> oren: Yeah, but it'd also have a really difficult relationship with anything that has to support identical looking but technically different characters.
19:17:26 <zzo38> (Although much of them can be found in the PC set as well, some aren't. Some of the technical characters are not even in Unicode either actually)
19:17:59 <oren> there I added it to the demo
19:18:51 <MDude> I guess the main difference between it and systems made for 8-bit tables is that it wouldn't specify an upper limit to the number of characters.
19:19:26 <zzo38> The pieces of the large sigma aren't in Unicode, according to a webpage I found
19:20:35 <zzo38> MDude: You still might want to specify a limit of 32-bits or whatever; the DVI format has a limit of 32-bits per character code
19:20:44 <zzo38> (Although TeX can use only 8-bits)
19:22:38 <MDude> I'll consider it, though I think what I was thinking at the time was making something for weird made-up and procedurally generated runes.
19:22:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm actually missing a lot of the DEC special set: ▚☃␉␌␍␊␋
19:22:53 <MDude> For use with comptuers that I pretend are made by aliens.
19:23:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43898&oldid=43897 * 50.170.122.255 * (+4) Fixed markdown syntax for italics
19:23:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43899&oldid=43814 * Undergroundmonorail * (+41) added pb
19:24:26 <b_jonas> I don't use many programs using these, but the few I've seen use only the line drawing characters like ↑↓→←█┘┐┌└┼⎺⎻─⎼⎽├┤┴┬│·
19:25:49 <oren> `unidecode⎺⎻─⎼⎽
19:25:56 <oren> `unidecode ⎺⎻─⎼⎽
19:26:12 <HackEgo> [U+23BA HORIZONTAL SCAN LINE-1] [U+23BB HORIZONTAL SCAN LINE-3] [U+2500 BOX DRAWINGS LIGHT HORIZONTAL] [U+23BC HORIZONTAL SCAN LINE-7] [U+23BD HORIZONTAL SCAN LINE-9]
19:26:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unidecode⎺⎻─⎼⎽: not found
19:26:14 <b_jonas> ok, probably not all of those
19:26:25 <zzo38> I cannot get DEC technical characters to work on xterm
19:26:29 <oren> I have the light horizontal
19:26:38 <oren> but not the scan line ones
19:27:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: what font encoding in xterm?
19:27:50 <b_jonas> zzo38: and what terminal encoding?
19:28:21 <b_jonas> oren: the full DEC set is this: ↑↓→←█▚☃ ◆▒␉␌␍␊°±␋┘┐┌└┼⎺⎻─⎼⎽├┤┴┬│≤≥π≠£·
19:28:41 <zzo38> I am using the "fixed" set
19:28:42 <b_jonas> some of those might be non-portable extensions
19:28:48 <zzo38> (That is what the font is called.)
19:29:13 <zzo38> The VT100 graphics work, but when I try to use DEC technical characters I get ASCII instead
19:30:19 <ais523> zzo38: the way it works is, xterm (and most other terminals) have two character sets "G0" and "G1", and each of those sets are customizable
19:30:30 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, but what's the full name of the font? eg. -misc-fecupboard-medium-r-normal--20-200-72-72-c-0-iso10646-1 vs -misc-fecupboard-medium-r-normal--20-200-72-72-c-0-iso8859-2 are my fonts but depend on font encoding (first is utf-8, second is legacy)
19:30:35 <ais523> you use the SI and SO characters to switch between them , and escape codes to set them up
19:30:48 <ais523> I suspect that what's happening is that they're both set to ASCII, so switching between them isn't doing anything
19:30:55 <zzo38> ais523: Yes that is how I did it!
19:31:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, what do you mean by "VT100 graphics" if not the DEC charset?
19:31:20 <b_jonas> ais523: oh right, I should have asked you rightaway
19:31:29 <ais523> zzo38: try sending "ESC ) 0", i.e. \x1b)0
19:31:36 <b_jonas> ais523: are those characters I mentioned portable, or are they extensions in urxvt?
19:31:40 <ais523> that'll change G1 to be DEC characters
19:31:49 <zzo38> ais523: That works, but when I do "ESC ) >" then it does not work.
19:31:55 <ais523> b_jonas: they're sort-of quasi-portable
19:32:01 <ais523> zzo38: that's because xterm doesn't implement the > character set
19:32:16 <ais523> b_jonas: basically most terminals implement them but they don't all implement them quite the same way
19:32:31 <zzo38> The xterm documentation mentions it, and anyways it ought to implement it!
19:32:45 <ais523> after running my terminal testsuite on a bunch of terminals, I decided that making it work consistently on all terminals would fail
19:32:51 <ais523> maybe it does, I thought it didn't though
19:33:16 <b_jonas> I believe xterm with ixo-8859-1 or similar font encodings uses glyphs in control characters positions to support some of the DEC stuff,
19:33:22 <zzo38> (Clearly a font that supports it is needed, such as by extending the "fixed" font with these characters
19:33:27 <b_jonas> which is something of an X11 "standard" about font encoding
19:33:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, for the VT100 character graphics it does, I have looked at the fonts
19:33:47 <b_jonas> and xterm doesn't really like when the font encoding differs from the terminal encoding, though it does allow so
19:33:48 <ais523> (I was checking linux console docs as they're the most easily accessible for me, I have the xterm docs but only the source code for them and it's written in a *roff dialect, which means that the interpretation of the input depends heavily on command-line options and all the ones I've tried look ugly)
19:34:03 <b_jonas> I don't know what xterm does for utf-8 font encoding with utf-8 terminal encoding though
19:34:28 <ais523> the Unicode version of xterm doesn't support 8-bit character sets at all
19:34:38 <ais523> any bytes with the high bit set are interpreted as UTF-8
19:34:56 <b_jonas> Urxvt is different, it supports proper unicode fonts (utf-8 encoded x11 bitmap fonts, as long as they're monospaced) with fallbacks to multiple fonts, and uses proper unicode characters for all the DEC line-drawing stuff, plus some fallbacks.
19:35:26 <b_jonas> But I for one just don't use xterm these days, and if I have to use it as a fallback, then I don't much care how the DEC specials come out, as long as they don't completely mess up the screen layout
19:35:40 <ais523> I have two uses for xterm
19:35:46 <ais523> one is if I need to test how something looks on xterm
19:36:00 <b_jonas> the other is to bootstrap another terminal?
19:36:01 <ais523> the other is if I need to run a terminal /inside/ an insane environment (sandbox, container, valgrind etc.) for some reason
19:37:06 <zzo38> I use only xterm; the others have various problems
19:37:18 <zzo38> (I don't have any others installed)
19:37:32 <b_jonas> by the way, I have a modified terminfo I used to use for xterm, because the default xterm terminfo claims the backspace key generates \x08, whereas I configure xterm to make it generate \x7f (xterm allows either), and some programs actually believe that terminfo entry and won't accept \x7f.
19:37:45 <b_jonas> so my modified terminfo differs only in that it tells (correctly) that \x7f is generated
19:38:12 <b_jonas> (a possible workaround is to just use TERM=vt100 instead of TERM=xterm of course)
19:38:46 <b_jonas> Currently my only use for xterm is bootstrapping till I install urxvt
19:39:18 <b_jonas> (or possibly fallback if somehow I really break all installed copies of urxvt, which hasn't happend yet, but could happen)
19:39:23 <ais523> b_jonas: Debian did a lot of good for the Linux ecosystem by asking their maintainers to forcibly configure every terminal mode program to \x7f = delete-backwards
19:39:24 <zzo38> I would want a bit different kind of xterm, where some features are removed and others are added
19:39:32 <b_jonas> oren: anyway, that's a nice font
19:39:57 <b_jonas> ais523: most programs could just accept both
19:40:20 <b_jonas> (emacs is the exception, which uses control-h for a different purpose)
19:40:29 <b_jonas> and indeed, some programs do accept both, regardless terminfo
19:40:33 <ais523> b_jonas: NetHack also uses control-h for a different purpose
19:40:38 <ais523> although then, it doesn't use backspace for anything
19:41:09 <b_jonas> yeah, there's also the control-j vs control-m thing, which has sort of the same historical confusion
19:41:44 <ais523> b_jonas: its really interesting seeing the output from web of lies
19:41:49 <ais523> because it has \r\n newlines
19:42:13 <pikhq> Because terminal. :)
19:42:49 <b_jonas> as in iirc, on PC bios, enter generates \x0a and control-enter generates \x0d, but on linux traditionally enter generates \x0d (because of ancient history reasons) which the terminal layer translates to \x0a unless you turn that off in the stty settings
19:43:00 <zzo38> Features to add can include the DEC technical set (the ESC ) > set), ANSI music, support for scroll lock, status bar support, resource containing escape sequences to initialize the terminal with (whenever it is reset), some of the more obscure DEC features, complete Tektronix emulation, X mouse cursor selection, etc
19:43:03 <ais523> it's simulating a terminal atm and when a program outputs \n, the terminal driver sends an \r\n code to the actual "terminal" (that Web of Lies is emulating), at least with the configuration I'm using
19:43:30 <b_jonas> and what control-enter, control-backspace, control-space, control-2, control-3, control-4, control-5, control-6, control-7 generate is sort of random among terminals
19:43:56 <ais523> hmm, I'm not sure I tried control-digit on test_uncursed
19:44:19 <pikhq> Which means it's merely *almost* possible to implement a terminal-generic termcap/terminfo.
19:44:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you have a simple list of character numbers (say as hexadecimal) in your font somewhere, so I can quickly compare with mine?
19:44:39 <b_jonas> oren: or I can send the list for what my font has instead
19:44:59 <b_jonas> pikhq: well, ais523 sort of does that, but without the termcap/terminfo part
19:45:10 <b_jonas> pikhq: and implements the generic _library_, without the description stuff
19:45:21 <ais523> pikhq: I do have the "NumLock/F1" key
19:45:22 <pikhq> b_jonas: If you're happy not implementing termcap/terminfo *in particular* it's totally doable.
19:45:46 <pikhq> The main issue with termcap/terminfo is the API assumes a one-to-one mapping between code sequence and keys.
19:45:46 <ais523> and yes, why would I go via termcap/terminfo when they solve the wrong problem?
19:46:26 <b_jonas> pikhq: that's only one of the problems, but sure
19:46:29 <pikhq> There's a few different places where terminals disagree, but there's at least enough agreement (and fixed number of ways they disagree) such that it's totally possible to be terminal agnostic.
19:46:51 <pikhq> b_jonas: A lot of the other issues with being terminal agnostic are purely theoretical.
19:46:56 <pikhq> (though, sigh, not all of them.)
19:47:11 <b_jonas> pikhq: sure, though there are really broken terminals that you just can't support, like that one that generates the exact same escape sequence for the home and end keys
19:47:25 <pikhq> Yes, but that's just broken.
19:47:44 <zzo38> Features to remove can include TrueType, Unicode, toolbar, resource to change the text of the menus, widget sets other than Athena, etc
19:47:55 <pikhq> Let's be real, though, ain't nobody going to care about a terminal that breaks with ANSI color escape sequences. :)
19:48:36 <ais523> pikhq: those even work in DOS
19:48:42 <ais523> although basically nothing else does
19:48:48 <ais523> I managed to run my terminal testsuite in DOSbox
19:49:01 <pikhq> Yes, the ansi.sys logic is a very unusual *subset*.
19:49:13 <ais523> amazingly, it (i.e. DOSbox) supports enough of the codes I need that libuncursed output should theoretically look fine there
19:52:18 <pikhq> I've still got half a mind to try and write a mostly-terminal-agnostic libcurses, though.
19:53:14 <ais523> pikhq: why not just use libuncursed
19:53:26 <pikhq> Because a lot of stuff uses libcurses.
19:53:29 <ais523> or would it do something that libuncursed doesn't? (e.g. support for physical VT100s)
19:53:37 <ais523> libuncursed implements curses' API, mostly
19:53:48 <b_jonas> pikhq: do you need curses/libterminfo compatibility? do you need the input side (keyboard), the output side (drawing), or both?
19:53:51 <ais523> I guess there are a few exceptions, e.g. it has a separate init function
19:54:00 <ais523> the idea was to make it easy to port curses programs, rather than to be a drop-in replacement
19:54:11 <b_jonas> ais523: what? why would physical vt100s not work?
19:54:26 <pikhq> ais523: It'd be rather nice to be a drop-in replacement for some stuff, though.
19:54:26 <ais523> b_jonas: they need the other end of the connection to intentionally slow it down
19:54:39 <b_jonas> but can't the terminal layer do that?
19:54:39 <pikhq> Admittedly, libcurses sucks and no new application should use it.
19:54:46 <pikhq> Yes, but it doesn't.
19:54:56 <pikhq> Yes, but it doesn't.
19:55:02 <ais523> it's in the curses layer for reasons I don't fully understand
19:55:04 <zzo38> I have just written the escape codes directly
19:55:26 <ais523> probably whoever first wrote it had perms to change curses (which is user-mode) but not the (kernel-mode) settings stty changes
19:55:35 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe because the terminal layers handles it only when you use it as a dumb terminal, but doesn't know about how much to slow down for escape sequences
19:56:08 <b_jonas> I mean, it still has to work in non-curses applications that just use the canonical translation mode
19:56:11 <ais523> ISTR some of the delay calculatoins are really complex
19:57:02 <b_jonas> though at least you don't have to model how the carriage accelerates
19:58:02 <oren> a bunch of invisible characters
19:58:24 <HackEgo> [U+2000 EN QUAD] [U+2001 EM QUAD] [U+2002 EN SPACE] [U+2003 EM SPACE] [U+2004 THREE-PER-EM SPACE] [U+2005 FOUR-PER-EM SPACE] [U+2006 SIX-PER-EM SPACE] [U+2007 FIGURE SPACE] [U+2008 PUNCTUATION SPACE] [U+2009 THIN SPACE] [U+200A HAIR SPACE]
19:59:12 <ais523> hmm, my client doesn't display them (as in, not that it's drawing blank space to the screen: the characters aren't there at all)
19:59:24 <ais523> (I'm verifying via trying to select the text in question)
19:59:38 <ais523> presumably something in the display layer is trimming off trailing whitespace
20:03:41 <oren> It seems that some programs will display the glyphs that I drew for each one, others will just draw space.
20:04:31 <oren> in some places looks like a compressed 4/EM and others just a space
20:04:37 <ais523> oren: you mean your glyphs aren't entirely blank?
20:04:37 <b_jonas> ais523: what if you put them between two characters, like A B?
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20:05:08 <oren> ais523: yes. that way you can tell what it is
20:05:08 <ais523> b_jonas: they're hard to type, and I can't copy-and-paste oren's :-)
20:05:25 <b_jonas> ais523: that's why I said A B
20:05:43 <b_jonas> oh, you mean in some other program than the client
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20:05:54 <ais523> in oren's comment they're rendering as a single space
20:06:01 <ais523> and yet all those spaces should be much wider than one space
20:06:13 <ais523> some are wider, some are narrower
20:06:13 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm here thry are on a web page
20:06:37 <oren> the first line under general punctiation has a bunch of them
20:06:42 <b_jonas> oren: oh, they're not blank there
20:07:45 <zzo38> The program that renders them shouldn't decide to put spaces or not; that should be the job of the font metric data to decide
20:08:21 <oren> ENQUAD EMQUAD ENSP EMSP 3/EM 4/EM 6/EM FIGSPA PUNSPA THINSPA HAIRSPA
20:09:46 <oren> all of which are rendered as single spaces because unicode doesn't specify how to deal with monospace fonts
20:10:01 <oren> or ratehr specifies it stupidly
20:10:32 <oren> emquad should be specified to be 4 wide
20:10:38 <b_jonas> question. HTML treats four particular space characters in the text part of html source code specially, as defined in http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/text.html#h-9.1 . where is the section defining that in the html5 standard? or is it not there because it's off-loaded to the CSS standard only?
20:13:13 <oren> Oh, so that's why my zwsp character isn't being displayed
20:14:14 <oren> wait no, it's in a pre tag....
20:14:30 <b_jonas> maybe zwsp is treated specially in a different way?
20:14:49 <oren> yeah probably. maybe it is zero width
20:15:03 <oren> even though my glyph for it isn't.
20:16:19 <pikhq> ais523: BTW, the trac for nethack4 seems to be giving a permission error.
20:16:45 <ais523> pikhq: it's on a separate server, which is having problems
20:17:01 <ais523> I think it was set to 403 out "temporarily" to avoid exacerbating them
20:17:07 <ais523> but we're not quite sure what to do next
20:17:09 <b_jonas> what's the CSS property that sets html-style whitespace squashing?
20:19:41 <b_jonas> answering own question: property is called white-space
20:20:06 <oren> http://www.w3schools.com/cssref/pr_text_white-space.asp
20:21:04 <b_jonas> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/#white-space-property
20:21:29 <zzo38> There may be several webpages, some servers might not use SQLite internally but some might, but I want to access them using SQLite-based client too, so using virtual table module extension you can access them with SQLite instead of web-browser. How to do that?
20:27:47 <oren> I think next I'll try to put in as many of the math operators as I can draw
20:28:13 <oren> that should be able to bump me past 2200
20:31:50 -!- atehwa_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
20:32:46 <b_jonas> hmm, I don't have replacement character (\xfffd) for some reasons
20:32:46 -!- villasukka has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
20:32:51 <b_jonas> I thought I had that in the font
20:33:24 -!- villasukka has joined.
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20:38:49 <b_jonas> oren: the hex code ranges of characters I have in my font are: {00:109, 10c:11f, 122:125, 128:131, 134:13e, 141:148, 14a:17f, 192, 218:21b, 232:233, 250:252, 254, 258:25c, 25e:25f, 261, 263, 265, 268:26a, 26f:270, 272:273, 275:276, 278:279, 27e, 282:283, 289:28a, 28c:28d, 28f:290, 292, 294:295, 29d, 2c6:2c8, 2cc, 2d0, 2d8:2d9, 2db:2dd, 391:3a1, 3a3:3a9, 3b1:3c9, 1e80:1e85, 1ef2:1ef3,
20:38:56 <b_jonas> 2000:200d, 2010:2016, 2018:2022, 2024:2026, 202f:2030, 2032:2037, 2039:203a, 203c:203d, 204e, 207f, 20a7, 20ac, 211f, 2122, 2190:2195, 21a8, 21d0, 21d2, 21d4, 2200, 2202:2204, 2206:2209, 220b:220c, 220f, 2211:221a, 221e, 2223:222b, 2234:2236, 223c, 2248, 2260:2261, 2264:2267, 2282:2283, 2286:2287, 2295:2299, 22a0, 22a2:22a5, 22bb:22bd, 22c2:22c5, 22ee:22f1, 2300, 2302, 2308:230b, 2310, 2320:2321, 23b8:23bd, 2500, 2502, 250c, 2510, 2514, 2518, 251c, 2524,
20:39:18 <b_jonas> if you want, compare that to yours, or maybe give a full list of character codes you have so I can compare
20:39:39 <b_jonas> (wait, was that too long for a line?)
20:39:52 <b_jonas> {00:109, 10c:11f, 122:125, 128:131, 134:13e, 141:148, 14a:17f, 192, 218:21b, 232:233, 250:252, 254, 258:25c, 25e:25f, 261, 263, 265, 268:26a, 26f:270, 272:273, 275:276, 278:279, 27e, 282:283, 289:28a, 28c:28d, 28f:290, 292, 294:295, 29d, 2c6:2c8, 2cc, 2d0, 2d8:2d9, 2db:2dd, 391:3a1, 3a3:3a9, 3b1:3c9, 1e80:1e85, 1ef2:1ef3,
20:40:07 <b_jonas> 2000:200d, 2010:2016, 2018:2022, 2024:2026, 202f:2030, 2032:2037, 2039:203a, 203c:203d, 204e, 207f, 20a7, 20ac, 211f, 2122, 2190:2195, 21a8, 21d0, 21d2, 21d4, 2200, 2202:2204, 2206:2209, 220b:220c, 220f, 2211:221a, 221e, 2223:222b, 2234:2236, 223c, 2248, 2260:2261, 2264:2267, 2282:2283, 2286:2287, 2295:2299, 22a0, 22a2:22a5, 22bb:22bd, 22c2:22c5, 22ee:22f1,
20:40:13 <b_jonas> 2300, 2302, 2308:230b, 2310, 2320:2321, 23b8:23bd, 2500, 2502, 250c, 2510, 2514, 2518, 251c, 2524, 252c, 2534, 253c, 2550:256c, 2580, 2584, 2588, 258c, 2590:2593, 25a0, 25ac, 25b2, 25ba, 25bc, 25c4, 25c6, 25cb, 25d8:25d9, 263a:263c, 2640, 2642, 2660, 2663, 2665:2666, 266a:266b, 27e6:27e9}
20:40:47 <oren> do you know wat program I can use to find out?
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20:41:07 <b_jonas> oren: dunno, in what formats do you have your font or how do you create it?
20:41:37 <oren> http://fontstruct.com/
20:42:50 <boily> quintopia: can't play yet, because it's missing Flash 32bit for Chrome. but it was mainly to answer the question "can I launch steam play stuff on Linux".
20:43:07 <boily> quintopia: the answer is yes I can, so I can buy that hero siege thing, and play too!
20:43:38 <quintopia> boily: well, don't bother. it's super beta and the server is down. i've been fighting it all morning
20:43:52 <boily> but but... there's a promotion and... :/
20:44:01 <boily> okay, won't buy it.
20:44:11 <quintopia> well, fine, buy it, but don't expect to be able to multiplayer today
20:44:25 <quintopia> maybe the promotion is taxing their servers
20:44:41 <b_jonas> oren: are the characters listed in the examples page all in the font?
20:45:11 <quintopia> i'm still up for some BL2, but I need to go get a walk in before it starts raining again
20:45:28 <oren> fc-query gives me
20:45:44 <b_jonas> oren: wait, in the demo page, why do you have a semicolon char in the place of the greek question mark char (;) ?
20:45:59 <oren> because that is what it looks like
20:46:09 <boily> quintopia: no trouble. I was asleep up until 15 minutes ago, and still in an not quite optimal brain phase.
20:46:10 <oren> according to wikipedia anyway
20:46:11 <b_jonas> oren: yes, but the html actually has a semicolon
20:46:36 <b_jonas> sorry, I have the sometimes annoying tendency to see the bytes, not the content
20:46:53 <b_jonas> I know they should look similar
20:47:02 <quintopia> boily: yeah i'm having the same problem. i arrived here 3 minutes after you pinged out earlier. (if i'd not accidentally hit the "restart now" button, I would have been here 3 minutes sooner)
20:47:36 <oren> should be fixed now
20:47:44 <b_jonas> oren: also, you have \x{3a2} in the demo page, which is a non-existant character
20:48:20 <b_jonas> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm doesn't seem to have changed
20:48:35 <b_jonas> (I mean, that part hasn't changed, I didn't cmp)
20:50:08 <oren> Hmm I'll try using a different editor to add it. It's possible that nano fucks it up
20:50:46 <oren> nah it's 0x37e
20:51:22 <oren> maybe browsers reduce everything to a base form?
20:51:44 <b_jonas> oren: possible, let me curl it
20:55:01 <b_jonas> oren: ok wait, let me say something positive too. I see you have the Romanian characters ș and similar, which is great (though obviously these used to be missing in old fonts and encodings for historical reasons, there's no reason why you wouldn't have them these days)
20:55:47 <oren> Well mostly I've been trying to cover entire unicode blocks at a time
20:56:13 <b_jonas> oren: your Ŵ looks strange, it has no circumflex visible
20:56:53 <b_jonas> oren: yes, but exactly for historical reasons, ș isn't in a much used block
20:58:14 <oren> which w is that?
20:58:30 <HackEgo> [U+0174 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER W WITH CIRCUMFLEX]
20:58:42 <oren> probably a mistake
20:59:10 <oren> thanks for pointing that out I would never have noticed
20:59:48 <b_jonas> oh, you probably have it but it doesn't display in the browser
21:01:33 <oren> NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO
21:01:54 <oren> the perfect operator for asshole mathematicians proving someone wrong
21:01:59 <b_jonas> this font seems nicely drawn, even if some of how it looks isn't to my tastes
21:03:59 <b_jonas> I know I said this already, but the ð looks strange
21:04:32 <oren> can you give an example picture of how it should look
21:04:54 <oren> I think I drew that one from memory or intuition
21:06:22 <b_jonas> oren: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/aa/Latin_letter_%C3%90.svg/1280px-Latin_letter_%C3%90.svg.png from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Latin_letter_%C3%90.svg
21:06:33 <b_jonas> the lowercase one (the uppercase is fine)
21:07:39 <b_jonas> oren: now as for more letters, is there a reason why you drew ď Ľ ľ with the normal caron, rather than the apostrophe-shaped caron that's often used for those letters?
21:08:51 <b_jonas> And same for ť (I forgot there's a fourth)
21:08:59 <oren> I wasn't aware a caron can look that an apostrohe
21:09:26 <b_jonas> oren: I think it can look like both in those characters, but the apostrophe is more common
21:09:45 <b_jonas> so in a monospaced font like this, you _could_ use the vedge shaped caron, it's just uglier
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21:10:54 <b_jonas> oren: your ĝ is totally wrong
21:11:00 <b_jonas> it appears to have a caron, not a circumflex
21:11:35 <b_jonas> also, why the heck am I proofreading a terminal font in the middle of the night?
21:11:50 <oren> Uh... I don't know but thanks
21:14:50 <boily> it's neither unapproximatively the middle of the night.
21:15:00 <b_jonas> oren: I'm not quite sure in this, because they're used only in Latvian or something, but I think ģ should have an accent that looks like an over-comma, not a cedilla, just like ș (Romanian s with comma) as opposed to ş (Turkish s with cedilla)
21:15:23 -!- TieSoul has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
21:16:16 <b_jonas> oren: the cedilla and the comma below was originally considered the same, then got disunified, which is why we have the encoding problems with the Romanian ș and ț, but if I understand right, ģ ķ ļ ņ ŗ only ever existed with a comma below/above, never a real cedilla
21:17:09 <b_jonas> I'm not sure I understand this correctly though
21:18:04 <oren> adding it to the list anyway, i'll research it
21:18:32 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:18:48 <b_jonas> oh, you have the maltese H with bar
21:19:04 <b_jonas> (as opposed to the physicist's h with bar)
21:21:39 <b_jonas> (they're actually the same character, though there's a compatibility alias for the latter, just like for the dreaded kelvin sign, if I understand correctly)
21:22:25 <b_jonas> oren: İ (Turkish capital I with dot) looks completely wrong
21:23:02 <b_jonas> oren: it's missing the dot in your font
21:23:36 <b_jonas> oren: ı looks wrong too I think
21:23:42 <oren> I see a dot there
21:23:49 <b_jonas> wait, maybe I'm confusing the characters here
21:24:53 <b_jonas> yes, the Turkish İ and ı look right, sorry
21:28:38 <b_jonas> oren: ŷ \x{177} looks wrong
21:29:16 <b_jonas> it should have a circumflet
21:30:33 <b_jonas> oren: is it deliberate that the letter z part of ž differs from that in ż ?
21:30:38 <b_jonas> it's only like a pixel or something
21:33:02 <oren> yeah the small z is supposed to be rounded more than the large z ehen both are the same size but I guess I wasn't consistent
21:33:18 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Quit: ZNC - http://znc.in).
21:35:36 -!- ais523 has quit.
21:36:27 <b_jonas> oren: I think your ˛ \x{2db} is wrong: it should be a standalone ogonek, but it looks like a cedilla
21:36:33 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:37:18 <oerjan> > var.fix$("The channel where "++).show
21:37:20 <lambdabot> The channel where "The channel where \"The channel where \\\"The channel whe...
21:39:09 <b_jonas> hmm, I don't know how these crazy standalone IPA accent characters are supposed to work
21:39:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43900&oldid=43805 * Nooodl * (-612321) clean this mess of a sandbox up for once
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21:44:28 <b_jonas> oren: do you have the crazy Welsh rare letters: ẁ ẃ ẅ and their uppercase?
21:44:31 <b_jonas> they're not in the demo page
21:46:42 <boily> I thought Welsh only ŵed the w. ẁ, ẃ and ẅ exist?
21:47:24 <b_jonas> boily: I don't really know
21:47:29 <b_jonas> boily: that's why they're crazy letters
21:47:44 <b_jonas> boily: I have some evidence that at least one of the four exist, at least in some conventions
21:47:55 <b_jonas> doesn't mean it's always written
21:48:06 <b_jonas> boily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grave_accent#Length
21:48:45 <oren> which block are they in?
21:49:36 <b_jonas> well, the block is probably \x{1e00}
21:50:02 <boily> b_jonas: interesting. they do eẍist and are used!
21:50:09 <b_jonas> I think that block contains partly letters for some transcription of Chinese with the tones shown as accent marks
21:50:25 <b_jonas> boily: I don't know if all four of those letters exist in Welsh
21:50:43 <oren> latin extended additional is on my list
21:50:45 <b_jonas> boily: they exist in _some_ language because they're in unicode, but I suspect Chinese transliteration for that
21:52:26 <b_jonas> iso-8859-14 encodes all four
21:52:49 <b_jonas> that means they're used for _some_ celtic language, whether Welsh or some other I can't tell
21:53:36 <oren> I have all those
21:53:49 <b_jonas> boily: what the heck are those?
21:54:02 <oren> I think those are used for mandarin pinyin
21:54:22 <oren> yeah. u with umlaut, with tones
21:54:56 <oren> (on the internet most people use v instead of umlaut u IIRC)
21:54:59 <b_jonas> I _think_ ǘ (u with diaresis and acute) appeared in some very few very rare Hungarian text, instead of ű, back when the writing conventions weren't figured out
21:55:06 <b_jonas> but I'm not quite sure in this
21:55:48 <b_jonas> but it's not clear if that use deserves an encoding separate from ű
21:55:57 <boily> oren: on my keyboard layout, when I type [Dead ¯] then [v] I get ǖ. same for the others.
21:56:24 <b_jonas> it might because ű has some uses other than Hungarian, historically speaking
21:58:44 <b_jonas> oren: you don't have ≈ (approximately equal)
21:59:07 <oren> yeah I'm working on that block right now, it will be fuller when I update it
22:00:24 <b_jonas> oren: also \x{223c} ∼ (single middle squiggle relation operator)
22:01:18 <b_jonas> also \x{2282} ⊂ (subset of)
22:02:01 <b_jonas> though of course it's questionable how useful these maths operators are in a monospaced font
22:02:29 <oren> bah, that's a question I never consider!
22:03:49 <b_jonas> oren: ⊥ would probably be genuinely useful even in monospaced, because some crazy haskellers who like unicode symbols can type it
22:04:24 <b_jonas> you know, the kind of haskellers who replace all instances of \ -> <- => :: ++ with unicode symbols
22:05:58 <boily> hellochaf. I take it you're not a crazy Haskeller?
22:06:10 <b_jonas> I see you have all the line drawing characters, even the ones not in cp437
22:06:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[JSFuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43901&oldid=43255 * Nooodl * (-11) genderrrrr
22:06:24 <oren> there are non-crazy haskellers?
22:06:42 <b_jonas> (eg. you have the round ones that I think are in the Commodore 64 character set)
22:08:30 <oren> I'm adding all the math operators that I can actually draw at the size of this font
22:08:41 <b_jonas> oren: shouldn't ■ \x{25a0} be a smaller box than what you have? That's the character that encodes the cp437 byte \xfe which is used in some dos text mode GUI programs, and I think in vga fonts it's a smaller box.
22:09:18 <b_jonas> ok, maybe not in all vga fonts, just the ones I'm used to
22:11:22 <b_jonas> oren: you don't have \x{2302}. maybe you should check if you have all the cp437 chars in the ascii control places (I think I have added all of those to my font specifically)
22:11:36 <b_jonas> you seem to have most of them
22:12:36 <oren> Oh, that one is in the font but not on the page. i'll fix it
22:12:47 <b_jonas> good night now, and keep up the good work
22:15:51 <b_jonas> for the record, 0b_jonas is not me, it's my evil twin
22:16:19 <b_jonas> he's sometimes called ₀b_jonas or ₀₈_jonas
22:19:10 <boily> 0b_jonas is to b_jonas what oerjan is to int-e. understood.
22:19:29 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:20:50 <tswett> I'm trying to think of a mathematically nice formal system which corresponds to Rust.
22:21:21 <tswett> Now, it kind of seems like if Rust were purely functional, then T, &T, and &mut T would all be essentially the same thing.
22:23:32 <tswett> T and &T would be the same thing. But passing a &mut T to a function would correspond to passing a T and then expecting another T back.
22:27:30 <shachaf> That gets even more interesting when you think about subclasses in C++.
22:27:54 <shachaf> Say you have struct A { int x; }; struct B : A { int y; };
22:28:43 <shachaf> void f(A *a) { a->x *= 10; }, and then you pass a B * to f.
22:29:11 <shachaf> What is the actual relationship of A and B, from this "purely functional" perspective?
22:29:55 <shachaf> You can turn B to A, when you pass it into f. And, given the new A that f gives you, you can "put it back" into the original B.
22:30:17 <shachaf> So you have (B -> A, B -> A -> A)
22:30:38 <shachaf> this is a familiar structure hth
22:33:44 <HackEgo> os is the accusative plural of us.
22:36:16 <tswett> Sure enough. First-person plural accusative: "os".
22:36:25 <tswett> The nominative is "vi".
22:36:50 <tswett> Now, I suppose there's no reason not to simply take STLC and add & and &mut to it.
22:37:10 <tswett> First problem. &T and &mut T aren't actually types.
22:37:26 <tswett> &'a T and &'a mut T are types, given a lifetime 'a.
22:37:38 <oren> math operators updated
22:39:23 <tswett> It doesn't seem to make much sense to have references when there are no memory locations for them to reference.
22:41:12 <tswett> I guess that both "immutable borrow" and "mutable borrow" constructs seem to make sense. As I envision it, I can't see how the "immutable borrow" construct would be useful at all, so let's look at the mutable borrow construct instead.
22:42:34 <tswett> If you have a T, then you can perform a mutable borrow of T. Within the mutable borrow, you get a &mut T that you can pass around willy-nilly. At the end of the borrow, the same &mut T must be returned back.
22:43:26 <tswett> Now, &mut Ts are uncopyable, so we need to use linear logic.
22:44:08 <tswett> The same &mut T must be returned back? What have we accomplished if the &mut T has to be given back?
22:44:13 <tswett> We could have just used a T this whole time.
22:44:58 <tswett> &mut is starting to feel like it's just syntactic sugar.
22:45:00 <quintopia> boily: i'm gonna take a shower. message me on steam when you're ready.
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22:59:37 <tswett> All right, &mut feels a lot like syntactic sugar. But let's consider linear typing now. If T is your average linear type, then T can't be copied, but &T can.
23:01:28 <tswett> I'm pretty sure that in general, the behavior of &T can't really be predicted by the behavior of T.
23:04:01 <tswett> The thing about a &T is that when you do things with a &T, you're doing stuff with the T and then returning the *same* T back.
23:10:53 <boily> quintopia: IEUAAAAAAAAAAAAHRGHGHGHGHGHFLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBL!
23:11:03 <tswett> So I think the moral of the story is that a &A -> B is essentially the same as an A -> (A, B) with the property that the function's first output always equals its input.
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23:11:55 <tswett> It's not really &A -> B; it's really &'x A -> B. 'x is a lifetime symbol, and the caveat is that 'x must not appear anywhere in B.
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23:37:19 <tswett> So far, &mut isn't very fancy.
23:38:06 <tswett> It seems that a "&'x mut A -> B" is essentially the same as an "A -> (A, B)" (without the equality requirement), with the caveat that 'x must not appear anywhere in B.
23:39:08 <tswett> It seems like the big difference between T and &mut T is that if you have a &mut T, you can drop it, but the underlying value will come back later.
23:39:44 <tswett> I don't know if that's actually theoretically useful.
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23:58:24 <oerjan> `unicode NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO
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00:10:19 <Sgeo> tswett, https://gist.github.com/Sgeo/ee7ce70ad91cad0d11bd
00:11:37 <tswett> (But you're violating my bracket indentation rule! Which nobody but me follows, as far as I know.)
00:12:32 <tswett> Namely: a line containing an opening bracket should have the same indentation level as the line containing the corresponding closing bracket.
00:13:13 <Sgeo> where clauses make all indentation stuff so confusing to me
00:13:46 <tswett> I'd move the opening bracket after a where clause onto a separate line.
00:13:49 <tswett> Just my own personal whim.
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01:43:15 <boily> the best goodnightmanteau is the one you can hear.
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01:43:36 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of lenses + subtyping
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02:16:42 <oren> I've now added the first 160 characters of latin extended additional
02:18:14 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
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02:21:53 <mauris> oren: i forget, are you actually from .be
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02:27:33 <mauris> <shachaf> So you have (B -> A, B -> A -> A) <shachaf> this is a familiar structure hth <-- does it have a name?
02:29:01 * oerjan notes that freefall's archive is a bit out of maintenance
02:31:12 <oerjan> oren is from the great belgium of canada
02:31:58 <mauris> wow cruel, at least give me a hint ;-;
02:32:29 <mauris> i'm fully prepared for it to be something extremely obvious
02:32:31 <oerjan> hint: it is still visible in my irc window
02:33:27 <oerjan> it's the old pre-functorize-everything representation
03:00:56 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of optics as natural isomorphisms twh
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03:32:27 <oren> also I now cover all of Latin Extended Additional
03:32:58 <hppavilion[1]> oren: How are you making the font? What program are you using?
03:33:51 <oren> fontstruct.com
03:34:57 <oren> http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/630397
03:35:32 <oren> now up to 2535 characyters, holy crap
03:38:32 <oren> I'm ranked 19th on the site by number of charatcers
03:39:39 <coppro> oren: what's the license?
03:40:44 <coppro> my thesis got approved \o/
03:45:40 <oren> who aproves theses?
03:49:20 <oren> well, I guess professors do?
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04:10:30 <zzo38> Whatever ideas I have had about programming language to make rules and cards of Magic: the Gathering and possibly other card games, what is your opinion of these things and other idea about how it would work your ideas?
04:27:13 <coppro> oren: a reading committee of three professors, two of whom don't understand the thesis and one of whom is biased
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04:31:17 <coppro> right, and there's ideographs
04:31:33 <coppro> so unicode basically requires at least two sizes (and indeed, many "monospace" fonts are)
04:34:04 <hppavilion[1]> I'll probably develop a kewl monospace programming typeface later on
04:34:15 <oren> yah, I don't have any double width characters yet. but eventually I will
04:36:31 <hppavilion[1]> Why is my goal in life to beat someone I've never met at font character numbers?
04:36:44 <oren> awesome stuff?
04:37:47 <oren> anyway, it didn't take me that much actual time to do this, i basically only work on it a few hours every month or so
04:38:23 <oren> like I don't remember doing anyhting with it last week
04:38:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 8086 * New user account
04:39:27 <izabera> did you ever crash bash? http://www.crashbash.co.nz/crash-bash-2015/
04:41:47 <oren> ah homework. I am so gald to be out of school and thus KNOW when I am supposed to be working and not
04:42:37 <oren> Alg II? is that algorithms or algebra
04:47:24 <oren> Welcome to Algae II. In this course, a continuation of Algae I, we'll move from the basic biology of algae to the modern algae industry, including modern algae farming
04:47:43 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, between Algae II and Algae I, there was Dogs
04:49:43 <hppavilion[1]> Because for some reason Geometry is interspersed between Algebra I and II
04:50:21 <oren> I see... that's weird. I had Algebra I and II right in a row
04:50:57 <hppavilion[1]> At least under the McDougal Littell textbooks, we take Geometry between Algebras I and II
04:51:00 <oren> Algebra II wasn't required for Comp sci but I took it anyway
04:51:32 <hppavilion[1]> Middle eastern... Arabic! It's arabic! Not Greek/Latin/etc.
04:52:30 <oren> something like that
04:54:59 <oren> the only arabic plural I know is mujahidin
04:55:25 <oren> from some news site or somthing
04:55:58 <oren> it means "jihad fighter"
04:57:42 <hppavilion[1]> To lure me into a trap where you get to explain stuff to me
05:00:09 <oren> i forgot the s
05:01:01 <oren> it is the way I write an s
05:02:24 <zzo38> I would want, to make a few new kind of signals for use with Linux, such as: SIGMEM (ignored by default), SIGOOM (terminate by default), SIGCONF (restart by default), SIGRESET (restart by default).
05:02:42 <zzo38> You can then use SIGMEM and SIGOOM for purpose with OOM-killer
05:05:08 <oren> I may at some point make a version with a curvier s
05:06:32 <oerjan> algebra may be originally arabic, but the -a at the end is certainly latin.
05:07:34 <oren> so algebrae then
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05:12:32 <zzo38> (Maybe SIGOOM should terminate with a core dump by default)
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05:33:22 <coppro> you can't assume memory to process a core dump
05:42:43 <zzo38> If a core dump is impossible it does not produce a core dump; the man page says that is always the case regardless of reason
05:56:54 <myname> oren: the mathematical z looks weird to me
05:57:40 <myname> what the hell is it supposed to look like?
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06:24:30 <izabera> i just tested oren's bfim.c with tcc -run
06:24:43 <izabera> it takes 2 minutes to run Mandelbrot.b
06:26:59 <izabera> the cutoff in rdebath's tests is 80s
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08:00:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43902&oldid=43841 * 81.156.87.102 * (+14) Added Fourier
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09:30:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Beta-Decay]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43903 * Beta-Decay * (+134) First edit
09:37:52 <fizzie> izabera: 21.7 seconds on my system when compiled with GCC.
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09:48:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43904&oldid=43898 * Beta-Decay * (+457)
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10:01:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43905&oldid=43904 * Beta-Decay * (+242)
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10:21:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43906&oldid=43905 * Beta-Decay * (+342)
10:24:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourier]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43907&oldid=43906 * Beta-Decay * (-46) /* Example */
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11:45:54 <b_jonas> oren: I'm looking at http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm from another machine with another browser, and it's still subpixel antialiased, as if it's shifted horizontally by a partial pixel.
11:46:01 <b_jonas> Let me try to work that around.
11:49:21 <b_jonas> Temporarily disabling subpixel aliasing globally has "fixed" it.
11:49:48 <izabera> pick a regular die with 6 faces, 4 are green and 2 are blue
11:50:30 <izabera> without doing any specific calculation, tell me which of these sequences is more likely to appear:
11:50:51 <izabera> 1. BGBBB 2. GBGBBB 3. GBBBBB
11:52:29 <b_jonas> oren: also, it seems as if you've added some characters to the font or the demo
11:53:09 <Walpurgisnacht> But its added colour to bgbbb gives it a statistically higher chance to roll in that sequence among the 20 rolls
11:53:44 <izabera> it requires G to appear right before 1
11:53:58 <Walpurgisnacht> Actually I could paint a d6 to that colour scheme and see what happens
11:54:34 <b_jonas> oren: ah, I see you've redrawn the l-caron and d-caron
11:56:50 <b_jonas> oren: \x{174} seems to have the wrong accent
11:57:40 <b_jonas> oren: oh, I see you've added the Welsh letters
11:58:53 <b_jonas> oren: the new lowercase eth seems better, thanks
12:01:42 <b_jonas> oren: also, I see you've added the vietnamese characters in the \x{1e00} block (such as o with hook) too
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12:14:12 <b_jonas> oren: I see you've changed the k-commabelow, l-commabelow, n-commabelow, and the lowercase g-commaabove. But the capital G-commabelow looks odd, because it's not tall enough.
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12:18:37 <b_jonas> it looks like you fixed the y-circumflex and the z-caron
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12:29:41 <b_jonas> oren: I think the Euro sign looks strange and doesn't really match the rest of your font.
12:34:21 <oren> The euro does need work now I look at it\
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12:35:11 <oren> I also reduced the space between the to lines of the =, I agree it looks better
12:36:15 <oren> specifically it restores the spaceship operator <=> to look correctly
12:36:58 <oren> Also I added a ton of math
12:40:27 <HackEgo> [U+2247 NEITHER APPROXIMATELY NOR ACTUALLY EQUAL TO]
12:41:10 <HackEgo> [U+2268 LESS-THAN BUT NOT EQUAL TO] [U+2269 GREATER-THAN BUT NOT EQUAL TO]
12:41:32 <HackEgo> [U+2278 NEITHER LESS-THAN NOR GREATER-THAN] [U+2279 NEITHER GREATER-THAN NOR LESS-THAN]
12:43:35 <myname> in case = is too lame?
12:44:00 <oren> `unidecode ≝≞≟
12:44:00 <HackEgo> [U+225D EQUAL TO BY DEFINITION] [U+225E MEASURED BY] [U+225F QUESTIONED EQUAL TO]
12:44:52 <oren> myname: of course. can't something have an order but no equivalency?
12:46:05 <oren> hmm but in that case we need a NEITHER LESS THAN NOR EQUAL TO NOR GREATER THAN
12:46:37 <oren> an example being NaN and 1 in floating point
12:46:58 <myname> i thought of {a} and {b}
12:47:21 <myname> and lower/greater being subset/superset
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12:48:30 <oren> ah. I thought it was "APPROXIMATELY EQUIVALENT TO"
12:49:31 <b_jonas> "specifically it restores the spaceship operator <=> to look correctly" -- ah, I remember when people discussed if some new arrow-like operator was supposed to be spelled ~> or something else, and they talked about how it can be hard to type, and that it looks ugly in fonts where the ascii tilde is high up
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12:50:46 <myname> could have been a python discussion
12:51:16 <b_jonas> oren: yes, in fact we need twelve variants of them: the equals sign can be a double horizontal line, a single horizontal line, or a single slanted line; the less-than sign can be above or below; and the cross can be vertical or diagonal
12:51:35 <b_jonas> oren: but you need the double tilde and single tilde operators first
12:51:54 <oren> I've got all those
12:52:09 <oren> er, all the tilde ones
12:52:30 <b_jonas> ah, I see you have added the \x{2302} to the demo, it was just well hdiden
12:52:34 <oren> I havent gotten past ⊵ in the math block
12:53:00 <b_jonas> on indeed, you have the doule tilde
12:53:24 <b_jonas> and I see you have two variants of the less-equal (aren't there three?)
12:54:03 <b_jonas> whoa, there's a quadruple equals sign too?
12:54:23 <oren> I wtill have many characters to go in the math
12:54:31 <myname> to make equality absolutely clear?
12:54:55 <HackEgo> [U+2263 STRICTLY EQUIVALENT TO]
12:55:07 <b_jonas> oren: I don't care much about the math symbols really, I've added only a couple of common ones, because I don't want to view math symbols in a monospaced font anyway
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12:55:18 <b_jonas> I'm planning to eventually add some APL symbols though
12:55:27 <b_jonas> because _those_ are useful in monospaced
12:55:39 <oren> those are in the misc. technical block
12:55:49 <myname> well, being as complete as possible is a nice feature for a font
12:56:11 <b_jonas> oren: APL symbols are spreaded among all blocks, because they overlap with other symbols, including ascii ones really.
12:56:34 <oren> Well yeah, I mean the ones specific to apl are there
12:57:15 <b_jonas> I don't care much about the unicode blocks. I care about covering uses, and covering certain legacy 8-bit encodings because they often match usage better than unicode blocks.
12:57:37 <HackEgo> U+222B INTEGRAL \ UTF-8: e2 88 ab UTF-16BE: 222b Decimal: ∫ \ ∫ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ \ U+222C DOUBLE INTEGRAL \ UTF-8: e2 88 ac UTF-16BE: 222c Decimal: ∬ \ ∬ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored \ Decomposition: <compat>
12:57:56 <b_jonas> so I'll add some APL symbols by going through the large apl symbol palette, and add all that I care about, regardless of which block they're encoded in in unicode
12:58:37 <oren> I did that at first when I was adding the DF charatcers
12:59:10 <myname> your font is df complete?
12:59:31 <b_jonas> doesn't df use only cp437?
12:59:55 <b_jonas> I don't know, I don't follow all the crazy non-ascii roguelike graphics.
13:00:23 <myname> oren: do you plan on providing an aur package for your fontm
13:00:24 <oren> yeah it only uses cp437
13:01:56 <oren> possibly. although I find it easier to install fonts by cp font.ttf /usr/shar/fonts/; fc-cache -r
13:02:01 <b_jonas> oren: by the way, what's the license terms for that font?
13:02:12 <b_jonas> later when it gets stable, can I redistribute it if I want?
13:03:03 <oren> CC share alike attributin
13:03:19 <oren> http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/630397
13:03:20 <b_jonas> hmm... not very practical for a font, but ok
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13:03:54 <oren> I plan to eventually put my by: as a charatcer in the font
13:04:24 <b_jonas> (I should try to convert it to an x11 bitmap font.)
13:05:20 <oren> also tags: H4xx0r
13:05:36 <b_jonas> oren: perhaps make the demo page link to that page
13:06:29 <b_jonas> I mean, maybe the redistribution terms are there inside the font file, but I don't want to have to dive that to determine the terms.
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13:07:53 <oren> I meant that the words "by oren" would appear as a charatcer, thus fulfilling the license terms
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13:08:14 <oren> in fact I'll do that now
13:09:05 <b_jonas> oren: sure, it's best to do all of that
13:10:03 <izabera> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Zimbabwe_%24100_trillion_2009_Obverse.jpg
13:10:10 <oren> There. now the nonexistent capital ending sigma has by oren in it
13:10:11 <izabera> this thing is worth .47 USD
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13:12:34 <oren> My dad has a lot of obsolete European money from before the EU
13:13:43 <izabera> me too but i'm not sure if that really counts since i live in europe
13:14:46 <izabera> our banks allowed you to convert them to euros until 2010
13:15:18 <oren> hm... that's a long time
13:15:20 <myname> we still can do it today in germany
13:16:26 <myname> there is no reason not to, is it?
13:16:47 <oren> well what do they do with the money they take?
13:17:14 <b_jonas> oren: give you euro for it. same as back in the ages.
13:17:37 <b_jonas> they have to accept it for a long time, to inspire confidence that the money you have now won't suddenly turn worthless
13:18:01 <oren> yeah I can see that.
13:18:57 <b_jonas> in this sense, it's not like changing to the euro is really different from how the actual banknotes are always replaced gradually (with a half-life between two years and five years, more for non-paper banknotes like the romanian lei, much more for coins) while the non-physical currency remains the same stable thing.
13:20:34 <oren> my dad also has a lot of old couns with silver in them, sucht haht the silver is worth much more than the coin says it is
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13:21:43 <b_jonas> or how the banks have to change banknotes and coins from one denomination to another, conveniently and cheaply, because if I couldn't change my 20000 HUF banknotes to 10 pieces of 2000 HUF notes any time, then I'll no longer believe that those banknotes are actually worth 20000 HUF, and will refuse to draw much money from ATMs in 20000 HUF notes.
13:22:39 <b_jonas> (I can change them now, which is good.)
13:22:55 <oren> ah, you're in switzerland, right
13:23:12 <b_jonas> I eat swiss chocolate sometimes, but I'm not there
13:23:46 <oren> Hungary isn't in the EU yet?
13:23:56 <b_jonas> but not in the part that uses euro
13:24:01 <b_jonas> half of the countries don't use euro yet
13:24:08 <oren> I thought the EU had gotten all the way to Russia's border?
13:24:19 <b_jonas> UK, Sweden, Hungary, and some others don't use EUR yet
13:24:25 <b_jonas> even if they are in the EU
13:24:37 <Taneb> I think UK and Sweden have an explicit opt-out so they never need to switch
13:25:14 <b_jonas> it's complicated, different parts of the EU stuff involve different sets of countries
13:25:23 <oren> hmm is Ukraine in the EU or is it just tring
13:25:32 <Taneb> Ukraine is not in the EU
13:25:33 <oren> I guess it isn;t
13:25:40 <Taneb> And probably won't be for some time
13:25:54 <oren> so you haven't quite yet surrounded Russia
13:25:58 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, they basically say they don't want to switch, but it's hard to predict anything, it's quite possible that Hungary will never switch either, even if they intend to switch now
13:26:51 <oren> Well of three sides
13:27:12 <oren> the Baltics, Poland and Ukraine
13:27:33 <oren> surround part of russia
13:27:45 <myname> yeah, russians have nowhere to flee now
13:29:35 <oren> actually hold on isn't there a part of East Germany that the Russians still have or something?
13:30:01 <oren> yeah between poland and lithuania
13:30:32 <oren> I remeber seeing an old map from before WWI where that was part of Germany
13:31:16 <Taneb> Yes, it was formerly in East Prussia, which was part of the German Empire
13:31:21 <oren> Yeah, it was in my 1898 atlas
13:32:36 <oren> Citizen's Atlas of the World
13:33:38 <oren> #only_1890_s_kids
13:37:35 <oren> Anyway that part is now surrounded by the EU
13:45:50 <oren> wow Austria-Hungary was Huuuuge
13:47:29 <oren> Seriously this map is like asking for shit to happen. There's no fucking countries between Austria-Hungary, Germany, and Russia.
13:47:50 <oren> what wer ethey thinking?!?!
13:50:06 <Taneb> It was a balance of power, of sorts
13:50:15 <Taneb> Until some people in Serbia tipped the balance
13:50:26 <Taneb> Causing everything to go horribly wrong
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13:58:44 <oren> Hmm, this picture is a little blurry
13:58:46 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/oldmapeurope.jpg
13:59:01 <oren> Stupid phone camera
13:59:40 <oren> there are as you can see a ton of countries missing
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14:36:46 <FreeFull> Italy looks pretty much unchanged
14:37:08 <FreeFull> I wish the picture was clear enough to read the text
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17:13:36 <Taneb> Hmm. Only 42 seconds on my end
17:14:06 <coppro> my ISP has a web chat service
17:14:16 <coppro> and the GET value for UTF-8 is "✓"
17:14:24 <coppro> I'm not sure whether to be amazed or horrified
17:14:59 <Taneb> What is the GET value for ASCII?
17:22:54 <shachaf> > fromIntegral (ord '✓') :: Word8
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20:44:20 <fizzie> I saw ✓ somewhere recently too.
20:44:35 <fizzie> I think in the form of "utf8=✓" URL parameter, or something similar.
20:45:49 <fizzie> I think it might've been at work.
20:45:57 <fizzie> But maybe it was just some website.
20:46:05 <ashl> github does that
20:46:19 <fizzie> Oh, that sounds plausible.
20:46:28 <ashl> https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=foo
20:46:47 <ashl> i saw another one do it too... it's probably some noddy ruby library
20:47:02 <fizzie> I did search for something on github.com recently, so it was probably that.
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21:35:11 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
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21:36:09 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's#http.*#http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript#' wisdom/olist
21:36:44 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
21:37:06 <olsner> so the o stands for oots?
21:37:32 <shachaf> olsner: it stands for order of the stick hth
21:38:30 <olsner> very good, that's what I meant by oots
21:40:09 <shachaf> if it isn't our favorite rhyming swede
21:40:47 <olsner> indeed it isn't, I don't rhyme
21:41:12 <HackEgo> 1137) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
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21:44:42 <shachaf> oerjan: that limerick is so good
21:44:50 <shachaf> now i don't want to write other limericks because they won't be as good
21:45:37 <olsner> otoh, if you don't write limericks you're guaranteed not to produce anything better
21:46:23 <oerjan> self-fulfilling prophecies are so self-defeating
21:46:46 <shachaf> i'm concerned with my average limerick quality hth
21:47:20 <olsner> one way out is to write lots of them, but hide the ones that aren't good enough
21:48:28 <oerjan> the evil enterprise method
21:48:55 <olsner> shachaf the evil enterprising limerick master
21:49:07 <shachaf> the best thing about it is that i wrote it in a hurry
21:49:09 <b_jonas> oren: \x{174} has the wrong accent in the font (just so it doesn't scroll out)
21:49:36 <shachaf> i was in a competition with Taneb to quickly write a limerick about olsner not being able to quickly write limericks
21:49:56 <shachaf> ok, that's not the best thing
21:50:00 <olsner> the ꙮs is what really brings it home, I think
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21:52:33 <olsner> fungot: do you limerick?
21:52:33 <fungot> olsner: but why is that a robot of your country." expr; not
21:53:44 <shachaf> oerjan: when is olist #1000 coming out twh
21:53:53 <shachaf> and how are they going to wrap up the whole story in one comic
21:54:21 <olsner> maybe they'll use several comics
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22:00:00 <fizzie> fungot: What sort of robots does your country have?
22:00:00 <fungot> fizzie: it being a fun language for programming is this true in scheme? look up could be a set
22:02:32 <boily> fizziello. fungellot.
22:08:41 <fizzie> fungot has a black belt in tong-fu.
22:08:41 <fungot> fizzie: but if you put your ifs before your assertions? worse? the question and answer format is nice here but is a persistent program. it requires binary i/ o
22:11:50 <shachaf> oerjan: do you live in trondheim or trondhjem twh
22:13:03 <fizzie> boily: It's an ancient art of fighting with a pair of tongs.
22:13:13 <oerjan> shachaf: trondheim, but don't tell any people from here over 80 or so hth
22:13:43 <olsner> are there people here over 80??
22:13:55 <lambdabot> CYUL 242200Z 22013KT 15SM FEW040 BKN055 BKN085 BKN150 24/18 A2979 RMK CU1SC5AC2AC1 CU TR AC TR SLP087 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
22:14:28 <oerjan> <olsner> maybe they'll use several comics <-- how can they use several comics when there's only #1000 left that's crazy talk
22:14:37 <fizzie> Saturday the daily high was 28; today it was 17.
22:14:48 <olsner> trivial: #1000 part 1, #1000 part 2, etc
22:15:00 <shachaf> oerjan: Sometimes they have several comic pages with a single number.
22:15:05 <olsner> or #999 part n and then #1000
22:15:08 <shachaf> Maybe the next thousand will arrive all at once.
22:15:24 <oerjan> olsner: people in trondheim hth
22:15:25 <olsner> maybe it will be one really really large comic
22:15:56 <boily> not sure if it's humanly feasible to inhale a thousand comics at once.
22:16:01 <b_jonas> Nah, you only really need one strip, but with 12 panels
22:16:12 <lambdabot> ENVA 242150Z 12007KT CAVOK 18/09 Q1014 RMK WIND 670FT 13013KT
22:16:21 <shachaf> I wish olist was over already because I want to buy _The Complete Order of the Stick_.
22:16:35 <olsner> maybe a thousand really small comics would be inhalable
22:16:53 <oerjan> olsner: impossible, think of the paper cuts
22:17:18 <boily> death by a thousand nasal comics.
22:17:24 <olsner> but not impossible, just inadvisable
22:17:59 <oerjan> boily: i realized the horror but too late, i'd already pressed return
22:19:05 <b_jonas> It's not complicated really. First panel: Belkar dies. Next four panels: Elan does something about his father and gets his happy ending. Last seven panels: the OoTS saves the world, Roy kills Xykon thus fulfilling his blood oath. Easy enough.
22:19:33 <b_jonas> Maybe the last one has to be six panels so that there's a black "THE END" panel at the end.
22:20:24 <shachaf> b_jonas: wait a minute, you're not even on olist
22:20:57 <b_jonas> Aren't you talking about Order of the Stick?
22:21:07 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
22:22:15 <olsner> do you have to be on olist to participate in the tangential discussions?
22:23:01 <olsner> ah, sorry, I retract all my previous statements about oots
22:23:53 <b_jonas> I mean, think about it, multiple comic authors have managed to complete their comics at a nice round number of strips, wrapping up the story in a clear way. Such comics include One over zero, StickManStickMan, Casey and Andy.
22:24:05 <shachaf> b_jonas: i feel like there are a few loose ends left there tdnh
22:24:20 <b_jonas> Rich is clearly a very talented and dedicated comic author, so clearly he can do that too.
22:24:24 <olsner> maybe it's not going to 1000 but 1024
22:28:26 <b_jonas> Mind you, there's also some webcomics that are completed but not with a round number of strips: Ozy and Millie (2248 strips), Irregular Webcomics (3198 strips).
22:31:11 <HackEgo> order of the stick? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:31:14 <HackEgo> the order of the stick? ¯\(°_o)/¯
22:32:50 <b_jonas> Question. Why does this query match so many cards: http://magiccards.info/query?q=the&v=card&s=cname
22:33:08 <shachaf> Maybe the last oots comic strip will be 9999
22:33:39 <shachaf> b_jonas: There are a lot of cards with "the" in their name?
22:34:00 <shachaf> It's not even limited to English.
22:34:11 <olsner> boily: order of the mapole
22:36:47 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle. A regulatory mapole measures 6' by 12 kg, ±0.5 inHg.
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22:40:44 <boily> this isn't Hungarian.
22:41:48 <olsner> kol is carbon, or COPD
22:41:49 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
22:42:12 <olsner> kål is pronounced the same and means cabbage
22:42:13 <b_jonas> no, kol is Kingdom of Loathing or something like that
22:42:44 <boily> no, it's a two-sided drum.
22:46:14 <mauris_> olsner: in dutch they are even both "kool"!
22:46:31 <oren> I'm home from work!
22:48:07 <oren> and i have my new Lenovo Thinkpad!
22:50:05 <oren> Fucking hell this thing is awesome
22:52:36 <boily> did you penguinify it already?
22:52:43 <oren> and, just as ordered, it has Windows 7
22:52:56 <oren> not fucking windows 8
22:56:04 <oren> boily: no, I'm tying this on my 9 year old laptop while setting up the new one
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22:56:44 <fizzie> What number of a Thinkpad is it?
23:01:35 <fizzie> I got one of those things with a relatively high-DPI screen (14" 2560x1440) for a work laptop, because I thought it would be nice, but turns out it's kind of annoying to use it with an external monitor, because e.g. terminal windows suitable for one screen get far too small/large on the other.
23:03:05 <oren> I have it with a normal dpi screen
23:03:31 <oren> seems to have a better viewing angle than my old one though
23:03:59 <hppavilion[1]> oren: Windows 10 is OK if you disable all the evil tracking bullshit
23:04:15 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, windows 8 was the most evil thing ever made
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23:10:38 <oren> so now I'm simulatanously using two laptops manufactured 9 years apart
23:13:06 <oren> hmm lets see what my website looks like in IE
23:15:25 <oren> looks like total shit
23:15:49 <oren> IE doesn;t support css web font
23:17:24 <fizzie> It does support it somewhat.
23:18:10 <fizzie> I think I got Embedded OpenType (.eot) to work.
23:18:28 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embedded_OpenType
23:19:18 <fizzie> That's the only supported format for IE 8, as per https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms530757(v=vs.85).aspx -- IE 9 extends it to WOFF and raw TrueType.
23:20:23 <oren> ok well first step, install firefox. then I'll install windows defender and uninstall stupid mcafee
23:21:54 <oren> er, MSE that is
23:22:44 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make a language that looks just like CSS, but is _actually_ a programming language
23:23:45 <oren> hmm, you mean like spread the information of the program into two different files in two different syntaces?
23:26:16 <hppavilion[1]> I was thinking it'd be /(decla|impe)rative/i hybrid
23:26:28 <oren> mcafee is complaining abaut me uninstalling it. well fuck you you cpu-draining crap
23:27:44 <oren> don't you mean print:"Hello, World!";
23:28:26 <hppavilion[1]> I want its /syntax/ to be *exactly* identicle to real CSS, or at least pretty close
23:29:31 <oren> so you want to limit nesting depth to one {}.
23:30:26 <oren> I guess loops could be like loop: a, f; where f refers to another definition
23:30:40 <oren> and a is an array
23:30:54 <oerjan> b_jonas: erm you're aware that Irregular Webcomic! has restarted? hth
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23:40:57 <oerjan> @tell b_jonas erm are you aware that Irregular Webcomic! has restarted? hth
23:46:05 <fizzie> oerjan: Basic Instructions just ended with 1181 strips. Although that's counting reruns as double -- that's just the number of lines in the "archive" list.
23:46:29 <fizzie> (1051 after a grep -iv rerun.)
23:46:35 <hppavilion[1]> It looks like we can do array like things with E[foo~="bar" "baz" "etc"]
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23:47:49 <fizzie> 8-Bit Theater ended with "Episode 1224".
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23:52:36 <oren> Now I've set the theme to windows classic and all the fonts to Arial 10
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00:09:16 <oren> installing touhou 14
00:09:28 <oren> and a few other games
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00:12:07 <hppavilion[1]> If they were to add a fourth langauge to the browser-based Web Design Trio, what do you think it'd do>
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00:27:35 <oerjan> @tell izabera <izabera> 1. BGBBB 2. GBGBBB 3. GBBBBB <-- well obviously _not_ 2. my hunch is 1 but i don't see how to conclusively prove it without calculation.
00:28:17 <shachaf> http://www.mrbillsadventureland.com/reviews/m-n/neverhoodR/BOBBY.jpg
00:29:23 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm sorry but neither orange nor yellow was included hth
00:30:05 <shachaf> now i can't tell whether you played the neverhood or what
00:31:05 <shachaf> ok well there's a puzzle where the correct answer is a sequence of five colors
00:31:24 <shachaf> and it says BOBBY on the machine
00:31:28 <oerjan> those are not all five colors hth
00:34:13 <oren> black orange black black yellow
00:34:48 <oren> is that a mana cost?
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00:49:33 <oren> That is shown on my Ansi codes page
00:49:58 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/ansi.htm
00:50:20 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> I think UK and Sweden have an explicit opt-out so they never need to switch <-- denmark, not sweden, although sweden is using tricks to avoid it.
00:50:44 <oren> can canada join the eu?
00:50:53 <oren> our currency is in the shit
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00:52:04 <oerjan> if the eu wanted to accept them...
00:52:16 <oerjan> but right now, that seems unlikely.
00:53:21 <oerjan> they're still keeping that nominal "european" requirement.
00:53:43 <shachaf> maybe canada can join the uk
00:53:52 <oren> shachaf: GOOD IDEA!
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00:54:42 <oren> the United Kingdom of Great Britain, Northern Ireland, and Big Scotland
00:54:57 <fizzie> CSS4 did not add text-decoration: blink;. That exists in CSS1 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS1/#text-decoration CSS2.1 http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/text.html#propdef-text-decoration and CSS3 https://drafts.csswg.org/css-text-decor-3/#propdef-text-decoration-line
00:57:24 <fizzie> I don't think there is any CSS level 4 module defining text-decoration, anyway. Just selectors and stuff.
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01:16:04 <oren> < oerjan> but right now, that seems unlikely.
01:16:04 <oren> 20:52 < oren> boo hoo
01:21:55 <zzo38> What you cannot do in CSS is to select based on applied styles, nor can you apply sophisticated priorities. I would find these features useful.
01:22:51 <zzo38> So you can neither add "text-decoration: blink" working nor prevent it from working in any general way with user CSS.
01:23:13 <zzo38> What you can do though is to make <BLINK> tags to blink by using CSS animations.
01:23:54 <zzo38> You also cannot easily select the parent element of something
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03:51:34 <oren> I am no using this thru cygwin
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04:22:18 <oren> there. I finally figured out how to turn off all these annoying applelike gestures
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04:27:34 <oren> like pinching to zoom and whatnot
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04:31:16 <oren> I found the setting in the control panel and turned everything off except stroking the right edge of the touchpad for scrolling.
04:33:11 <oren> I also turned off the pointer inertia, it does nothing but screw up the respoinsiveness
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04:47:05 <doesthiswork> I noticed something today. If you want to find out the sorted order of 3 variables there are six possible results. However if you test the order pairwise it takes 3 tests with binary results meaning you waste an average of 41% of one of the tests. So the obvious solution is to use hexanary logic, but I'm curious if there is some more general solution.
04:50:42 <oerjan> you can drop the last test in 1/3 of the cases fwiw
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05:00:59 <oren> or you can just only sort large arrays
05:01:12 <oren> stop sorting small ones dude
05:01:17 <doesthiswork> oerjan yes you can but that requires you to mix the tests together
05:01:40 <doesthiswork> bogosort doesn't work so well on the large ones
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05:54:45 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I know it's restarted, but it has still *completed*.
06:00:11 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of the plan to borrow vaarsuvius's soul at a tactically critical moment
06:01:45 <oerjan> well it worked once...
06:02:12 <shachaf> you won't even give me the satisfaction
06:02:15 <oerjan> and they have two more options
06:03:29 <oerjan> anyway, that moment isn't now, since e's not even present at the moot
06:04:47 <shachaf> i just wanted you to say it's fiendish
06:04:49 <oerjan> i suppose a more general question is whether the 3 fiends are working together with durkon-the-vampire or not
06:05:45 <oerjan> that's weird, before i looked at what you had written i briefly thought it would be a comment on "fiendish", and then once i read it i completely forgot
06:05:53 <oerjan> conclusion: my memory is fiendish
06:07:34 <shachaf> and it will be a fine dish
06:07:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Superkamiguru * New user account
06:08:02 <oerjan> it didn't help that i checked for a new comic to see if it was relevant
06:08:55 <oerjan> shachaf: i just checked and i'm not sure fiendish is pronounced that way.
06:09:29 <oerjan> in your defence i thought it did
06:09:42 <shachaf> i was on defence about it myself
06:09:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[NSFW]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43908 * Superkamiguru * (+246) Created page with "{{stub}} NSFW is an esoteric programming language created with Scala by Mihir Khatwani based on [http://esolangs.org/wiki/ArnoldC ArnoldC]. The source is available [https://g..."
06:11:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43909&oldid=43902 * Superkamiguru * (+11)
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06:13:47 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Maxsteele2#Languages wow all of these
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06:49:25 <ashl> myname: i think you're just jealous.
07:01:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43910&oldid=43430 * Rdebath * (-4) Update the "more complex variant" to my current version. Gives visual error on all known trivial interpreter bugs, works correctly on >= 7bit and unbounded interpreters, fails on fascist interpreters.
07:05:30 <ashl> i wonder how old they are
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07:31:49 <ashl> at least there are no brainfuck equivalents
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07:57:29 <izabera> yay my interpreter prints "Hello world!"
08:14:02 <myname> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Puzzlang i don't get the incrementor and the first clear cell
08:26:50 <mauris> myname: those segments are all on a very tiny torus
08:27:50 <mauris> so they actually wrap https://bpaste.net/show/d860dddaced1
08:28:08 <mauris> the first X has ";; " above it etc
08:28:29 <mroman> Average BMI in Australia is around 27 o_O
08:28:58 <mroman> This can mean two things. Either they're all surprisingly fit
08:29:03 <mroman> or the opposite of that.
08:31:28 <myname> but where does it start parsing?
08:32:24 <myname> i.e. why isn't the thee surrounding ; a ]?
08:32:36 <myname> there has to be at least one x?
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08:34:42 <mroman> :D measuring weight in adult koalas
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09:35:40 <Taneb> Are the single-width floats a subset of double-width floats?
09:39:24 <Taneb> Thought so, thanks
09:51:17 <fizzie> I'm not sure if the various different NaNs are "officially" considered a subset.
09:52:25 <fizzie> As in, if some group of double-precision NaNs are the "same" as single-precision NaNs. But maybe that's not a particularly interesting question.
09:53:58 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/lang1.html http://mroman.ch/lang2.html <- does anybody see something that would be impossible in those?
09:53:58 <Taneb> I don't think any NaNs are the same as themselves
09:54:09 <Slereah__> NaNs seem like such a waste of space
09:54:22 <Slereah__> How many values of floating points are NaNs?
09:54:25 <mroman> (specifically the second one)
09:54:55 <fizzie> Slereah__: 2^52-1 double-precision ones.
09:55:07 <fizzie> And 2^23-1 single-precision ones.
09:55:45 <fizzie> Sorry, add one to those; I forgot the sign bit.
09:55:46 <mroman> I have no idea what these types are called btw.
09:56:28 <fizzie> (There's one particular value for the exponent field that's used for both infinities and NaNs. If the mantissa is 0, it's +inf or -inf depending on sign; if it's anything nonzero, it's some kind of NaN.)
09:58:34 <Taneb> How many non-NaN values are there?
10:02:26 <Slereah__> Pretty small percentage but still a huge amount
10:03:06 <Taneb> Oh yeah, 2^64 - 2^52 is not 2^12
10:03:13 <Taneb> Jeez, I am not well
10:03:34 <Slereah__> Is there a floating point scheme with just one NaN value
10:04:00 <Taneb> Not in the same sort of style as IEEE
10:04:31 <Taneb> If the mantissa only has one bit...
10:04:35 <Taneb> There'd be two NaNs
10:05:03 <fizzie> I kind of think it makes sense to have a specific "special" exponent dedicated for infinities, and there's not an obvious use for the "other" bit patterns then.
10:05:44 <Taneb> There'd be two NaNs and you could only represent NaN, +-infinity, and +- powers of 2
10:07:26 <fizzie> Assuming the usual implicit 1.
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10:49:22 <boily> oren: ヘロレン！ 「東方」はどうですか
10:52:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43911&oldid=43824 * 81.156.87.102 * (+68) Added Fourier
11:02:27 <lambdabot> PAIW 251034Z AUTO 19020G27KT 2 1/2SM -RA BR OVC004 09/09 A2963 RMK AO2 PK WND 18028/1020 PNO $
11:11:58 <Walpurgisnacht> Probably will get it wrong this time but it passes the time
11:16:52 <boily> values? hand? time???
11:17:02 <boily> you're talking about way too much abstract concepts here.
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13:11:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Esowiki201529A * uploaded "[[File:Sesame oil sample.jpg]]"
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13:21:24 <izabera> http://i.imgur.com/sfGREzy.png two minutes of wikipedia
13:23:16 <Taneb> Ugh, that time again?
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14:36:35 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, robots, progress, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
14:36:45 <HackEgo> Progress has been made today. It was invented by Taneb.
14:36:53 <HackEgo> Robots are deterministic finite Belgians that repeat themselves. Taneb invented them.
14:39:03 <HackEgo> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan.
14:39:18 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
14:39:27 <Taneb> Wow, I invent a lot of things
14:48:46 <HackEgo> 1146) <Taneb> I am NOT in the mood for binomial expansion
14:51:00 <FreeFull> So, you're not in the mood to expand (x+1)^(-1) ?
15:06:39 <izabera> http://www.valbot.com/arin.ga woo $10
15:08:48 <int-e> let's see whether we can push the price by asking from different domains?
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15:10:01 <int-e> izabera: note also that the estimated monthly ad income is $20 a month - so you'd be giving it away for two weeks worth of income...
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15:10:08 <int-e> ...something doesn't add up.
15:12:04 <izabera> i should ask wikipedia if their campaign is working
15:12:26 <izabera> guys, please donate $2 each to arin.ga and this will be over in an hour
15:12:59 <int-e> haha. "Get the official Free Valuator Appraisal Certificate for your domain valuation."
15:13:29 <HackEgo> Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages.
15:13:59 <izabera> apparently i run the 8766021st most visited website worldwide
15:15:03 <izabera> beer for everyone once i get below 8 millions
15:15:34 <Taneb> I'm going to hold you to that
15:15:50 <int-e> izabera: http://www.valuegator.net/show.php?url=aron.ga is the "best price" so far
15:15:51 <Taneb> I have no idea where you live but I will turn up on your doorstep and demand beer
15:16:27 <int-e> it's amazing how many of these "domain appraisal" sites exist...
15:16:54 <Taneb> I tend to imagine everyone on the internet lives in a high-rise in an East European country
15:17:06 <Taneb> I don't know why, that is just what I picture
15:17:17 <Taneb> I've never lived in either a high-rise or an east European country
15:17:34 <int-e> Taneb: that bit about East European countries sounded like an xkcd tag line
15:19:03 <Taneb> I am, in fact, Randall Munroe
15:19:23 <J_Arcane> woo. I'm in the big time now. http://www.valuegator.net/show.php?url=hulksandhorrors.com
15:20:16 <J_Arcane> http://www.valuegator.net/show.php?url=bedroomwallpress.com
15:21:43 <Taneb> That website values taneb.uk at $30
15:21:51 <Taneb> Which is more than I paid for it, I think
15:22:47 <int-e> hmm, it puts int-e.eu at $69
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19:02:40 <b_jonas> stupid javascripted website
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19:03:40 <zzo38> Yes, they are all being stupid (mostly)
19:04:05 <b_jonas> this one uses javascript to replace ordinary select boxes with some javascripted widget that doesn't work properly
19:04:26 <zzo38> Yes, I don't like that either. Turn off scripts if you can I suppose
19:04:40 <b_jonas> I can, but many pages just refuse to work that way
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19:05:10 <zzo38> Some webpages will work fine without scripts if you override the CSS
19:05:45 <zzo38> Maybe you could also try to use a GreaseMonkey script to change them back how it was before
19:06:19 <int-e> . o O ( tested with IE 4 and Opera 3.0 )
19:11:34 <zzo38> There doesn't seem to be extensions to enable/disable/override individual scripts; I would think it would be good idea
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22:00:45 <tswett> I wonder if anyone's ever come up with a list of words or phrases that refer to specific other words or phrases.
22:00:58 <tswett> Like "tetragrammaton" and "F-word".
22:01:19 <izabera> how would you call such a list?
22:02:15 <myname> what the hell is tetragrammaton?
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22:02:56 <tswett> The tetragrammaton is the word יהוה.
22:05:06 <oerjan> bit of a germanic/romance difference there, i think
22:06:29 <oerjan> or wait, no, german is also on the romance side
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22:35:18 <ghettofatso> so you actualy dont talk about iluminati here
22:36:21 <ais523> this channel's about intentionally bad programming languages
22:36:21 <HackEgo> ghettofatso: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:37:23 <ais523> I wonder if the EFent or DALnet channels are active yet
22:37:34 <ais523> we've sent enough people there, after all
22:38:00 <shachaf> The DALnet channel was empty last I checked, I think.
22:38:30 <shachaf> Looks like there are some people in the EFnet channel.
22:49:45 <oren> tswett: That showed up perfectly in my font!
22:50:06 <oren> (that is, the characters were in the right order)
22:51:28 <oren> so apparently cygwin's terminal has RTL support
22:59:04 <oerjan> i added the EFnet because someone said it was more active than the DALnet one, last we checked
23:17:48 <oren> hey oerjan, whaich unicode characters are important to you?
23:18:06 <oren> The new version which I'm about to upload has the snowman
23:18:35 <izabera> did you type all of that in 4s?
23:18:50 <oren> no, I was about to mention it
23:19:13 <oren> because someone, possibly you, mentioned the snowman
23:19:32 <izabera> what makes you think it was me
23:20:08 <oren> then maybe... oh yeah i think it was zzo38 who mentioned a snowman
23:22:55 <oren> anyway it has the snowman and all the math characters
23:23:37 <izabera> i'd never use a font without q
23:25:16 <shachaf> I don't really know how to write q.
23:25:21 <shachaf> When I handwrite it it always looks like 9.
23:25:26 <shachaf> I don't really know how to handwrite.
23:25:32 <oren> it is like a backward p
23:25:47 <ais523> shachaf: when handwriting q I was taught to make a sharp diagonal line up and to the right from the base
23:25:47 <oren> or at least that is how i write a little q
23:26:03 <ais523> whereas with a 9 you're curling the defender to the left
23:26:37 <shachaf> I don't curl anything to the left when writing 9.
23:27:23 <oerjan> shachaf: clearly the problem is that your 9s look like qs hth
23:27:46 <shachaf> Oh, descender makes more sense.
23:27:55 <shachaf> I assumed it was an obscure typographical term I didn't know.
23:27:59 <oerjan> when in doubt, you could always add a cross to the descender...
23:28:31 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm still on defence about that hth
23:28:52 <oren> 9 looks exactly like a g
23:28:57 <oerjan> hm do i do that or not, i'm not sure
23:29:06 <ais523> 9 and g are very similar, yes
23:29:30 <ais523> the way to distinguish them that I was taught is that the vertical line on the right of a g goes up slightly higher than the loop
23:31:27 <oerjan> hm i'm pretty sure i avoid having any vertical line up on my 9s
23:31:55 <oerjan> i _think_ i draw it clockwise, which makes that easier
23:32:06 <oerjan> while i draw g counterclockwise
23:32:23 <ais523> apparently drawing a 9 clockwise is some sort of horrendous offence against typography but I don't really see why
23:32:43 <oren> I draw it clockwise
23:32:47 * oerjan being efficient by not knowing about rules
23:33:30 <oerjan> d counterclockwise, p clockwise
23:33:33 <shachaf> clockwise but time-foolish
23:34:09 <oren> no, W I draw in three strokes
23:34:13 <shachaf> google has a thing where they have clocks that give them an open interval of possible current times, rather than a single point
23:34:39 <shachaf> they have a guarantee that the interval applies to every clock they have in the world
23:34:51 <shachaf> seems much more reasonable than pretending that time is a single point
23:34:57 <izabera> i can't even imagine how you draw that
23:35:10 <oerjan> i have this sort of sliding scale between "my letters look typed" and "my letters have loops and flourish" that depends on situation.
23:35:32 <oren> first draw an L, then draw two vertical strokes on top of the baseline
23:37:33 <oren> my letters look very much like my font
23:37:51 <oren> except less perfectly rounded/straight
23:38:10 <oren> I can't actually draw an o as a perfect circle
23:39:55 <oerjan> if i'm particularly nervous or fixing up errors when solving crosswords, i may even add serifs
23:41:28 <oerjan> solving crosswords probably accounts for 90% of my handwritten letters these days.
23:41:42 <oren> the new version of my font is up
23:42:08 <oren> the demo is not yet updated, but you can see I fixed the Ŵ
23:44:08 <izabera> let's take the set of all strings with a certain alphabet
23:44:24 <izabera> let's define a distance over this set
23:45:21 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> This can mean two things. Either they're all surprisingly fit <-- when first seeing that in the log, part of the window was hidden so i read that as "they're all surfing" hth
23:46:09 <izabera> d(a,b) = 1 if a is b minus 1 char, or b is a minus 1 char, or b can be produced by swapping two adjacent characters in a, or a and b differ for only one character
23:46:21 <izabera> d(a,b) = 2 in any other case
23:47:14 <izabera> let's extend all the things i said about 1 to n
23:48:07 <oerjan> izabera: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damerau%E2%80%93Levenshtein_distance hth
23:48:09 <izabera> it's not a distance anymore
23:48:37 <izabera> i was trying to correct typos
23:49:06 <oerjan> "Damerau not only distinguished these four edit operations but also stated that they correspond to more than 80% of all human misspellings."
23:52:51 <oerjan> apparently it also applies pretty well to DNA mutations
23:55:17 <izabera> ok, when trying to fix a mispelled word, how far would you search?
23:57:08 <oerjan> i suspect that depends on the writer
23:58:10 <izabera> how far would *you* search?
23:58:12 <oerjan> but there's probably some point at which the number of options starts becoming too large
23:58:38 <oerjan> i wouldn't, i alwase spel corectly
23:59:27 * oerjan is reminded about a comic
00:00:24 <oerjan> hm maybe it wasn't on the web
00:00:27 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm is updated
00:01:04 <oren> now with 100% as many snowmen
00:01:23 <ais523> oren: the same number of snowmen?
00:01:25 <oren> er. wtf did i just mean
00:01:27 <izabera> what's the last mathematical operator?
00:01:41 <oren> ais523: no i mean I added the snowman
00:02:38 <ais523> oren: 100% as many of something is the same number of that thing
00:03:20 <oren> i know, I know
00:03:36 <zzo38> I remember some time ago I needed to know some algorithm relating to Levenshtein distance and Damerau-Levenshtein distance but I do not remember what, and it wasn't simply calculating the value.
00:04:21 <HackEgo> U+22FF Z NOTATION BAG MEMBERSHIP \ UTF-8: e2 8b bf UTF-16BE: 22ff Decimal: ⋿ \ ⋿ \ Category: Sm (Symbol, Math) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored
00:04:24 <oerjan> zzo38: was it that text generation for a console?
00:04:34 <zzo38> oerjan: Maybe; I do not remember
00:05:07 <zzo38> But I think it may have had something to do with optimizing Damerau-Levenshtein distance
00:05:19 <shachaf> unicode bag brackets are so good
00:06:03 <oren> I don't have those, what characters are they
00:06:28 <izabera> least useful characters ever
00:06:53 <oren> I'll upgrade that block's priority
00:12:44 <zzo38> Actually, I think what I needed was a way to sort a list of items such that the sum of the Levenshtein distances of pairs of adjacent elements is minimized. (Either that or maybe it was actually the Damerau-Levenshtein distance; I do not quite remember. Or perhaps with generalized costs.)
00:13:28 <oren> isn't that the travleing salesman problem?
00:13:55 <zzo38> I suppose it is similar at least
00:16:41 <oren> you can reduce it to the traveling salesman problem and then use an existing algorithm for that
00:17:55 <zzo38> O, OK, but still I do not quite remember what it is I have needed before, or what for, so I won't do it now.
00:19:05 <zzo38> oerjan: What text generation for a console do you refer to?
00:28:41 <oerjan> it was either famicom or z-machine, i think
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00:29:07 <oerjan> you were trying to do it with few instructions
00:30:40 <zzo38> I remember about Z-machine trying to encode text using as few Z-characters as possible, yes
00:31:30 <zzo38> The algorithm that Infocom has described in their documentation does not work, and anyways they did not use it (they simply avoided using any permanent shifts at all; Inform does the same).
00:32:01 <izabera> still related to my typo thingy: does this list cover pretty much all the commands you use frequently?
00:32:04 <izabera> bash sh git sudo python iptables uname node perl wget curl tmux screen tar grep find ssh sed awk vim emacs diff sort pwd gzip free htop top kill cp cat mv ls du dd df rm rmdir mount chmod chown passwd mkdir locate man tail head less ping date file apt apt-get aptitude pacman yum rpm which ifconfig
00:33:19 <zzo38> izabera: Not really, although I expect different people it will be pretty differently (it also depends what distro is in use, and other stuff)
00:33:26 <oren> almost: scp nano and svn are missing
00:34:11 <zzo38> It may be useful to allow customization though
00:34:13 <izabera> i'm caching the corrections for those commands
00:34:47 <zzo38> Since they are different for different pairs of people and computers they use
00:35:15 <izabera> oh yes ofc i'm just writing this to speed up the lookup for the common cases
00:36:32 <izabera> if it's not in that list i just perform a regular lookup from all the commands in your system and ask the user if the closest guess is what they meant
00:36:38 <zzo38> Ah, OK, I don't really know what is most common but that seem reasonable I suppose. Depending how vim is set up it may also be started just by typing "vi" instead, is one; also some (including myself) will use dc as well, commonly
00:36:59 <izabera> ok adding scp nano vi svn hg
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00:37:00 <zzo38> izabera: Yes but you could have, if the user wants to change it then they can recompile it
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00:37:32 <izabera> there's no real need to recompile, you can just add your own to the configuration file
00:38:06 <zzo38> izabera: OK, then, but it may depend how the lookup works exactly, if it needs to be reindexed or not.
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00:39:00 <zzo38> oerjan: Note that even what I have for Z-machine (which is based on much of your help, but also many of my own things), is only optimal if no fwords are used; with them it is much more complicated since they can interfere with what permanent shifts should be used and not, therefore changing the length.
00:39:25 <izabera> the lookup stops when it finds a word that has a levenshtein distance < 2 from the command you typed
00:39:46 * oerjan recalls someone noting about spell checking that if you're a severe enough dyslexic, asking "did you mean this" is insufficient: they won't necessarily know even if they see the word
00:40:21 <zzo38> izabera: O, I suppose that can work, then.
00:40:34 <oerjan> well that was not the exact phrasing, mind you
00:42:13 <zzo38> There are strange things (although I have considered them and made the algorithm take them into account), for example in the string "01234X56789" it will be most efficient to encode the "X" using an ASCII escape even though "X" is in the Z-character set.
00:51:40 <zzo38> Temporary shifts from state 0 to state 1 or 2 are one Z-character long. Permanent shifts from state 0 to state 1 or 2 are two Z-characters long. Permanent shifts from state 1 or 2 to state 0 are one Z-character long. All other shifts are not allowed. Uppercase letters happen to belong to state 1, and digits happen to belong to state 2; also, state 2 is the only state where ASCII escapes can be used.
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00:55:28 <izabera> git: 'statu' is not a git command. See 'git --help'.
00:55:30 <izabera> Did you mean one of these?
00:55:40 <izabera> ^ stupid git doesn't use the levenshtein distance
00:57:34 <zzo38> What does git use?
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00:59:43 <izabera> dunno, looks like they only check the beginning of the word
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01:01:37 <izabera> but it could be smarter -_-
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01:13:42 <zzo38> I would want the operating system for portable computers which would consists mainly of only a Forth environment and a SSH client, and then some things can be compiled in or not based on the hardware you intend to use it on
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01:15:32 <izabera> so you're rewriting unix in forth
01:18:05 <zzo38> It would be simpler than UNIX if you don't need a full system; you can SSH to your computer at home if you need UNIX
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01:39:12 <pikhq> It is not as though SSH is all that UNIX-specific, except by happenstance.
01:39:53 <ais523> pikhq: apparently Microsoft have claimed that ssh support in Powershell is a priority for the Powershell team
01:39:59 <ais523> I'm not sure it actually does support it yet though
01:40:21 <pikhq> IIRC it shipped in Windows 10
01:40:34 <pikhq> Ah, no, not yet but they damned well intend to.
01:40:40 <pikhq> Both in client and server.
01:48:38 <zzo38> Yes it doesn't have to be a UNIX server, that is just one possibility
01:51:25 <pikhq> A very likely one, but not at all inherent in the scheme.
01:51:34 <pikhq> It could just as easily be SSHing into another Forth machine.
02:02:47 <tswett> /topic whereas with a 9 you're curling the defender to the left
02:04:57 <tswett> So what's the correct way to write a 9, exactly?
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02:05:16 <tswett> The other day, I decided to try to come up with exact descriptions of the uppercase Latin letters.
02:05:20 <tswett> I wasn't quite sure how to describe C.
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02:07:44 <tswett> "There are three strokes. The first stroke is a line from top left to bottom left. The second stroke is a clockwise arc, beginning at top left, proceeding through mid-top right, and ending at mid left. The third stroke is also a clockwise arc, beginning at mid left, proceeding through mid-bottom right, and ending at bottom left. The third stroke may extend slightly farther to the right than the second stroke."
02:09:14 <tswett> "There is only one stroke, which is a counterclockwise arc, beginning at mid-top right, proceeding through top center, then through bottom center, and ending at mid-bottom right."
02:09:52 <zzo38> Then you can put them into METAFONT
02:10:56 <tswett> Describing G is gonna be tough.
02:11:01 <tswett> Nobody knows what a G is really shaped like.
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02:15:08 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes you could even be SSHing into another Forth machine, if it has a SSH server, but as far as I know Forth machines don't usually run SSH servers, isn't it?
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02:16:42 <zzo38> Some device drivers and filesystem drivers (and software to use them) may be provided optionally for such thing as a camera, harddrive, floppy/CF/SD/MMC/USB, CD/DVD, fax modem, sound card.
02:17:44 <zzo38> Even if you don't have a fax modem you could try to send a fax using the audio port (you may use an external device to connect it to a telephone line, such as the data port of a telephone found at a hotel), so that if you are working on something and you want to print it out, then you can do so.
02:18:52 <zzo38> If the file is on a remote server then they may also have a program on the remote server to select printer controller mode and then convert DVI to Sixel graphics and then the local program can then convert the Sixel graphics into fax machine format.
02:21:32 <zzo38> Another optional device might be a mouse which can be used to send xterm mouse commands and to copy/paste text on the screen. And then, you would have either wired ethernet or wi-fi or both, if you have wi-fi then you would also have a program to find the access point and to enter the password and so on.
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02:27:11 <zzo38> Based on my ideas of how such a system would be used you probably don't need support for the filesystems of CD and DVD, although you might want to play an audio CD.
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02:31:51 <oren> There are three strokes. the first is a straigt line from top right to middle right. the second is a counterclockwise arc from top middle through middle left, bottom middle, ending at middle right. the third is a straight line from middle right to the centre
02:32:29 <oren> There are three strokes. the first is a straigt line from top right to top middle
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02:33:12 <oren> the second is a counterclockwise arc from top middle through middle left, bottom middle, ending at middle right. the third is a straight line from middle right to the centre
02:33:15 <zzo38> You should make the description by mathematical notations, or by using METAFONT
02:33:40 <oren> zzo38: that isn't as cool as having the system parse English text
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02:35:56 <zzo38> You could have it to parse English texts too perhaps and convert them into METAFONT codes that can call the use of some macros; that way the thickness and other variation can be change by changing the macros and/or by changing the value of global variables
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02:41:52 <pikhq> zzo38: Correct, Forth machines generally don't run SSH servers. This is a hypothetical possibility, not something I anticipate anyone actually doing.
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02:45:42 <oren> wouldn't forth be more useful if the underlying cpu architecture was stack-based somehow
02:46:25 <zzo38> oren: It may if the CPU instruction set is designed to run Forth; a few do have some instructions like that, but even if it doesn't you can still implement Forth
02:46:29 <zzo38> X forwarding doesn't seem needed here (it would just complicate it), but what may be useful might be "Plan9 forwarding"; is such a thing possible to do with SSH?
02:46:51 <pikhq> zzo38: You can forward arbitrary ports over SSH, so "yes".
02:47:12 <pikhq> Additionally IIRC the protocol can be expanded to cover unforeseen needs.
02:49:09 <zzo38> If you do that then you could use it to access a CF card on the client rather than being physically connected the device to the server
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03:11:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GolfScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43913&oldid=43403 * Oerjan * (-25) Seems alive again
03:23:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K-on Fuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43914&oldid=43411 * Oerjan * (-6) /* Perl Implementation */ Mediawiki markup needs only one space, and doesn't ignore extras
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04:05:45 <pikhq> Fond of the HP Pavilion or something?
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04:08:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43915&oldid=43454 * Oerjan * (-13) Some proofreading
04:11:15 <zzo38> Do you know of a program to read and show where all of the backreferences are in a DEFLATE stream? If it doesn't exist I could write one though
04:19:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43916&oldid=43434 * Oerjan * (+11) wikify
04:26:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumper]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43917&oldid=43446 * Oerjan * (+1) tag error, section case
04:26:47 <Sgeo> Is my solution for a Hack ASM project readable or terrible? http://pastie.org/private/zvdtyldnacegggvd95v4og
04:27:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumper]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43918&oldid=43917 * Oerjan * (-12) /* Examples */ oh and more of these markdown spaces
04:28:29 <ais523> zzo38: I wrote one of those for my custom compression format, but it doesn't do DEFLATE
04:28:50 <oerjan> ais523: can you add a spam detection for when people start lines with 4 spaces twh
04:29:17 <zzo38> ais523: What is your custom format?
04:29:33 <ais523> oerjan: are actual spambots doing that? or is it humans who don't know how to wikify?
04:30:08 <ais523> zzo38: it's basically a recursively-defined dictionary, where strings are defined in terms of shorter strings
04:30:24 <ais523> until eventually you can write the entire string you care about concisely
04:30:50 <ais523> in my tests it had much better compression than gzip even with no attempt at optimization, and when heavily optimized, was slightly better than bzip2
04:31:02 <ais523> unfortunately, "slightly better than bzip2" isn't really a selling point when there are other compression formats around which are much better
04:32:20 <zzo38> Well, I need a nonrecursive dictionary for use with Z-machine text compression, because Z-machine does not support recursive dictionaries.
04:32:34 <zzo38> ais523: What kind of data have you tried to compress though?
04:32:44 <ais523> zzo38: I tested it on the GPL version 3 and on a C-INTERCAL paxball
04:34:20 <zzo38> Depending on the kind of data some preprocessing steps may be useful; much depends on the kinds of data I think, which is why I wanted to make the compression format where it joins together various blocks which may include compressed user-defined codes too
04:34:38 <pikhq> ais523: Is there a good reason to call it a paxball?
04:35:05 <pikhq> I mean, the pax format is basically ustar.
04:35:09 <ais523> pikhq: it's INTERCAL, thus it's arbitrarily different for no good reason
04:35:13 <ais523> other than being different
04:35:29 <ais523> also, it's INTERCAL, which means that it especially tries to follow standards if nobody else does
04:35:47 <ais523> (also, pax is backwards-compatible and so people can actually read it)
04:35:59 <pikhq> (because pax is literally ustar with extensions)
04:36:05 <ais523> being different for the sake of it is INTERCAL's actual reason for existence, though
04:36:13 <ais523> just like being hard to compile is Befunge's
04:36:22 <ais523> the other stuff, such as the actually-kind-of-neat control flow model, came later
04:36:31 <pikhq> That seems to understate the difficulty of compiling Befunge.
04:36:53 <ais523> I think it was the invention of NEXT FROM that really kicked it off
04:37:45 <ais523> having functions that can call themselves opens up a bunch of possibilities that would be awkward to do in other ways (I mean, without other code having to call into them first)
04:38:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[???]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43919&oldid=43768 * 108.35.44.196 * (+479) Explain the name “???”
04:39:34 <pikhq> Is C-INTERCAL compilable in a K&R C compiler?
04:39:38 <ais523> oerjan: anyway, wrt that detection thing, it would be possible to display a message that just explained how wikimarkup worked, which would just be the message (plus requiring a second confirm)
04:39:51 <ais523> pikhq: I don't think so, but I'm not sure; maybe if you used unprotoize first
04:40:19 <pikhq> Probably not worth the effort. Being pedantically correct C is itself probably worth it.
04:44:16 <zzo38> Do you know how to prove that the algorithm I am using for figuring out optimal shift sequences for Z-machine text is perfect?
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04:53:49 <oerjan> zzo38: wasn't it based on finding the optimal sequences for initial substrings, given each final state? so assuming all states are accounted for, it should be just induction on adding another character...
04:55:00 <oerjan> basically, the sequences for each substring must be optimal for given initial and final state
04:55:33 <ais523> mauris: huh, I didn't realise you'd written a golfscript derivative
04:56:55 <zzo38> oerjan: That isn't the entire thing; there is other stuff too that I added, because it isn't quite as simple as I had explained to you at first; nevertheless I believe that your way would work but see the entire thing to learn how it works
04:57:14 <zzo38> It is http://zzo38computer.org/zmachine/doc/tricky.txt
04:58:16 <ais523> mauris: that customizable h command is genius :-)
04:59:20 <mauris> i like my f command too!! so good for code golf
04:59:43 <mauris> push a string containing all of fizzbuzz
04:59:46 <ais523> hmm, I still need to write an interpreter for that language where you give it the number of an anagolf problem
05:00:14 <mauris> http://golf.shinh.org/p.rb?FizzBuzz#ranking
05:00:15 <ais523> then it tries out the solutions to that problem that are visible in reveal source, and takes a majority vote
05:00:23 <ais523> is f customizable too?
05:00:33 <mauris> sadly no! wow, maybe it should be
05:00:46 <ais523> hmm, the logical consequence of this
05:01:00 <ais523> is to write a language that's TC using nothing /but/ standard programming examples as commands
05:01:08 <ais523> like, you can do control flow by feeding a hello world to a fizzbuzz, or something
05:02:03 <pikhq> print fizzbuzz[fibonacci(1)]
05:02:08 <mauris> that sounds interesting
05:02:45 <mauris> imo it should be TC but the only things it can actually output are standard programming example things
05:02:47 <ais523> it'd be great because it'd be really hard to show off its TCness without there being an easy way to write whichever example program you picked
05:02:57 <ais523> mauris: TC internals but only standard example as output?
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05:03:37 <mauris> so you can write a program that counts from 1 to 10, but only by counting in unary using "hello world"s as a unit
05:03:59 <mauris> separated by... "99 bottles of beer on the wall"s
05:04:00 <pikhq> That'd be a fun Brainfuck interpreter.
05:04:38 <ais523> mauris: I've recieved horrified complements for the way I did I/O in Radixal!!!!
05:05:28 <ais523> (ugh, that fourth exclamation mark /still/ gets me even nowadays, although it's not quite as mind-destroying as it once was)
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05:06:15 <mauris> mind-destroying how so
05:06:24 <ais523> "To avoid confusion, all numbers in this specification will be written in Roman numerals." is still one of my favourite sentences
05:06:37 <ais523> mauris: I decided that three was the highest justifiable number, which is why it uses four
05:07:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Radixal!!!!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43920&oldid=36037 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Radixal!!!! integers */ fix accidental use of decimal, which would crash the reader if encountered
05:08:09 <mauris> oh nooooo i found https://esolangs.org/wiki/EsoInterpreters again
05:08:10 <oerjan> zzo38: as long as the cost table still is correct with your adjustments, and all characters either follow it or have cost entirely independent of state (i.e. they can be ignored), then it should work...
05:08:11 <ais523> <Esolang> (Yes, this means that although arbitrary codepoints can be input, it's not possible to output arbitrary codepoints; programmers are encouraged to find similar-looking codepoints that can be output and use them instead.)
05:08:21 <ais523> mauris: hmm, that makes me want to work on the Underlambda project again
05:08:28 <ais523> but I got bogged down in details
05:08:41 <myname> ais523: i like the idea of the new language
05:09:03 <pikhq> ais523: Gotta love INTERCAL.
05:09:05 <ais523> but it'd be hard to make it work, and I don't really want a hard-assed version
05:09:27 <mauris> i want to extend the chain. but how do you actually implement things like Lazy K
05:09:33 <ais523> like, how do we get control flow out of standard examples? clearly fizzbuzz can do some sort of loop, but…
05:10:44 <myname> string building can be made by accessing an index in 99 bottles of beer
05:11:05 <ais523> but what operation lets us index strings?
05:11:14 <zzo38> It certainly seem different than how Infocom intended it, but it is the way optimal for their design. Their design is strange in this way, it seem like; not only with text but also with instructions and other stuff, there are strange things you can do which are almost certainly not what Infocom had in mind.
05:11:47 <mauris> what about looping by passing callbacks for fizz() and buzz()
05:12:13 <myname> ais523: what about c like pointer arithmetics for that?
05:12:40 <myname> fizz and buzz should actuaöly be related to fizz and buzz
05:12:47 <myname> don't just rename commands
05:12:49 <zzo38> They almost certainly would not have purposely designed it such that these kind of algorithm would be in use.
05:12:51 <ais523> mauris: the problem there is that you'd probably just put all your logic in fizz and have a no-op for the buzz
05:13:12 <ais523> myname: what sort of keyboard lets you typo an ö?
05:13:38 <zzo38> (What their compiler actually does is not use any permanent shifts at all; only temporary shifts are used. They have put in other features too which they have never used.)
05:13:47 <ais523> hmm, I guess next to l is a reasonable position for that
05:13:53 <oerjan> almøst a norwegian too
05:14:17 <myname> ü is next to p and öä are next to l
05:14:47 <pikhq> https://cadie.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/INTERCAL-style-guide.html Clearly I should use INTERCAL at work.
05:14:56 <oerjan> huh the german keyboard is probably close to swedish then
05:15:17 <ais523> pikhq: fun fact, I have commit access to that repo
05:15:22 <oerjan> my keyboard has öä marks on those keys but their not active
05:15:46 <myname> i do think the swiss keyboard is weird
05:16:13 <zzo38> (Joystick support, XZIP menus, the ORIGINAL? instruction, etc. I have also seen various other things in their story files (from disassembling them in the debugger I wrote) that I have been able to optimize even more better, too.)
05:16:17 <myname> especially since caps lock + shift + x = x does not hold
05:16:37 <mauris> It's not difficult to write interactive programs in Lazy K. However, you should be aware that doing so is, technically speaking, a sin.
05:16:42 <ais523> myname: I was thinking "that doesn't work on my keyboard" then realised I rebound caps lock ages ago and sort-of forget its original purpose
05:16:57 <ais523> I had an alternative binding (shift-shift) to turn on caps lock for a while
05:17:09 <ais523> (if you can modify other keys with shift, why not shift?)
05:18:19 <ais523> pikhq: huh, I've just noticed that that style guide doesn't outright say "alternate sparks and ears at alternate levels of grouping", which is normally considered the #1 INTERCAL readability tip
05:18:34 <ais523> it sort-of gets close but doesn't outright state it
05:18:47 <ais523> and the examples seem to be written in that form (because what sane programmer wouldn't?)
05:18:56 <myname> there is an à key that does ä on shift, À on caps lock and Ä on shift+caps lock
05:19:17 <ais523> myname: ugh, most keyboards that need that sort of thing use altgr for that purpose
05:20:05 <ais523> (although on a UK keyboard, altgr is used for two keys: the second |, which is different from | on many OSes but not on Linux/X by default, and € which was a relatively recent addition)
05:20:22 <ais523> I'm not quite sure why we had an altgr key, actually, other than futureproofing
05:20:46 <myname> i don't even know how to make the second |
05:20:48 <ais523> the secondary | can't be that important, as shown by the fact that the two are frequently merged
05:20:57 <ais523> myname: it's altgr-` on a UK keyboard
05:21:05 <ais523> sometimes one is drawn solid and the other as a broken line
05:21:09 <ais523> or one is thicker, or the like
05:21:17 <ais523> but both map to the ASCII version with the config I have at the moment
05:22:06 <shachaf> myname: I think some Hebrew layouts use caps lock + shift + numbers for the what's-it-called.
05:22:10 <ais523> anyway, reading that style guide again
05:22:13 <shachaf> Diacritics? Whatever the name is in English.
05:22:23 <ais523> I'm amused at how ".5 is always a boolean" has become such a standard in the INTERCAL community
05:22:36 <ais523> it just sort-of happened with the system library's convention, then sort-of expanded from there
05:22:58 <pikhq> ais523: As I understand it, AltGr mostly came into being in the UK as a consequence of using the ISO mechanical layout rather than the ANSI mechanical layout.
05:23:12 <ais523> I suspect this is at least half to do with a really common technique of using an undocumented part of the system library internals to save one line of code
05:23:37 <ais523> (to the extent that when I wrote syslibc, I had to preserve that undocumented behaviour because too much existing code broke otherwise)
05:24:22 <ais523> also, PLEASE NOTE is my standard comment syntax, but only because it looks better than the alternatives
05:25:04 <pikhq> *Aaaah*. The UK keyboard is designed to also be usable for Irish.
05:25:24 <ais523> that makes sense, although in that case I'd expect Irish letters to appear on the keycaps
05:25:53 <pikhq> I don't know why they don't, but apparently the vowels have accented versions selected with Alt-Gr.
05:25:56 <ais523> "Con: Allowing extra groups sometimes allow you to avoid having to exchange all the rabbit-ears in a subexpression with sparks (and vice versa) when editing code."
05:26:05 <ais523> OK, they've come /really really close/ to insisting that they always alternate
05:26:07 <ais523> and still haven't stated it
05:26:14 <pikhq> That might be intentional. :)
05:26:15 <ais523> I guess the author must just have assumed they said that already
05:26:28 <ais523> æe→ø↓ (altgr-vowels on my keyboard)
05:26:55 <ais523> is that e the same as an ASCII e? they look identical to me but that'd seem like a huge waste of an altgr binding
05:26:57 <oren> left arrow and doiwn arrow?
05:27:25 <ais523> I know altgr-e is é on Windows, and is sometimes even written as such on the keycap
05:27:33 <oren> try the e and then `
05:27:41 <pikhq> In a way I'm spoiled by the ANSI keyboard. It's friggin' great for English and programming.
05:27:49 <ais523> oren: I can type é as altgr-; e
05:27:52 <pikhq> Probably something to do with those being all they do. :P
05:28:06 <ais523> and that's my muscle-memorized keybinding even though é can be typed as compose, e, '
05:28:23 <ais523> pikhq: I think languages tend to be designed around keyboards, especially more recently
05:28:52 <ais523> ¬ would presumably be used more if the UK keyboard was also used in the US
05:29:11 <pikhq> Also historically; the US keyboard layout is very close to the typical typewriter layout.
05:29:42 <ais523> I've seen typewriter layouts with no 0 or 1
05:29:53 <ais523> I think you were supposed to use O and I instead
05:31:02 <pikhq> Actually, quite specifically the US keyboard layout is *basically* the Selectric keyboard layout (which was slightly different from traditional in where some of the special keys got located).
05:33:12 <oren> shachaf: I think they are called vowel pointing
05:33:30 <oren> (wikipedia says so)
05:33:48 <mauris> AZERTY (which i usually use) has a separate key for a letter that exists in exactly one french word
05:33:57 <mauris> some other junk is on it if you hold shift. but wow
05:34:43 <shachaf> oren: That's a verb, it sounds like.
05:34:50 <pikhq> ais523: Huh. The actual *spec* for the UK keyboard doesn't actually specify any use for AltGr, it just specifies it'll be there.
05:34:56 <shachaf> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niqqud the name is just transliterated.
05:35:06 <shachaf> But I don't know whether to use q or k or what, and a double one or a single one.
05:35:11 <ais523> pikhq: I'm glad I have an altgr, anyway
05:35:20 <ais523> but this does not make it any easier to explain the key to Americans
05:35:42 <pikhq> I've taken to binding right-win to Compose, which at least gets faintly similar flexibility.
05:35:54 <ais523> I guess it was just future expansion? € is pretty important nowadays and it was nice that we had somewhere to put it once we discovered we needed it?
05:36:05 <ais523> (there's also an iso-8859 variant which has a euro in and is otherwise -1)
05:36:26 <shachaf> I used to bind the menu key to Compose.
05:36:34 <oren> that's windows 1252
05:36:37 <shachaf> This keyboard has neither a menu key nor a right Windows key.
05:36:41 <pikhq> Also a consequence of being near to the EU -- note that *physically* all the European keyboards are actually identical.
05:37:02 <pikhq> The differences are just in the keycaps and what the OSes do with 'em.
05:37:10 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, there's two or three such variants:
05:37:40 <ais523> pikhq: huh, US keyboards are physically different from UK ones?
05:38:02 <pikhq> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_United_States-NoAltGr.svg This is a normal US keyboard.
05:38:13 <ais523> some of the keys are different shapes but I thought that was just done via the use of keycaps that didn't plug into all of the (whatever you call the thing that keycaps plug into)
05:38:24 <b_jonas> because iso-8859-15 is the modification of iso-8859-1 with euro, and iso-8859-16 is the modification of iso-8859-2 with euro and the disunified Romanian letters, these two don't get used much because they came late and unicode was already well-spread by the time;
05:38:55 <pikhq> You've *buttons* we don't have.
05:39:17 <pikhq> But yeah, no. Each keycap has its own hole.
05:39:18 <oren> I also have a numpad
05:39:30 <oren> and arrow keys
05:39:40 <b_jonas> and cp1252 is the modification of the original cp1252 without renaming it, with euro added, and cp1250 is the modification of the original cp1250 with euro and the disunified Romanian letters added, without renaming, and these do get used a lot because some Windows programs use locale byte encodings by default and these often are the locale's byte encodings
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05:40:24 <shachaf> But that's a bizarre place to put \
05:40:30 <ais523> pikhq: I was doing that on the basis that you can easily switch a UK keyboard over to being interpreted as US
05:40:35 <ais523> and then you just have some duplicate keys
05:40:56 <ais523> (the main one being that our # key becomes a duplicate \)
05:41:07 <pikhq> Though, L-Alt and R-Alt generate different codes, so you *can* switch to a more general sort of layout. Namely, US-International, which has R-Alt as Alt-Gr.
05:41:18 <pikhq> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_US-International.svg
05:41:21 <oren> OH so that's why my friend's laptop has two \ keys
05:41:24 <shachaf> US International (AltGr Deadkeys) is the right one.
05:41:43 <pikhq> Very few actually use the thing.
05:41:58 <shachaf> I've been using it for a long time.
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05:43:58 <pikhq> And then there's the rarely used Canadian multilingual keyboard. :)
05:44:44 <pikhq> https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Canadian_Multilingual_Standard_comment-en.svg Yeah, that's right. Two Alt-Gr buttons.
05:46:22 <Taneb> That was a nap and a half
05:46:28 <Taneb> Well, more like about 12 naps
05:46:34 <Taneb> Well, more like a solid night's sleep
05:46:44 <Taneb> I just accidentally slept for about 12 hours
05:47:33 <ais523> Taneb: my record is something like 18, that's only happened something like twice though
05:47:41 <ais523> and I was very tired for other reasons beforehand
05:47:55 <ais523> more worrying is when I'm really tired, go to bed, wake up feeling refreshed
05:48:00 <ais523> then realise I've only been asleep three hours
05:48:01 <Taneb> ais523, I was not expecting to go to sleep at all
05:48:13 <Taneb> I just intended to have a short nap
05:48:21 <ais523> then go around trying to establish the date because three and twenty-seven seem about equally believable
05:48:32 <ais523> (and the most accessible clocks show time but not date)
05:49:46 <oren> pikhq: yeah. my firend has a Acer Aspire 6920G (giant media centre lap-crusher) with the canadian multilanguage layboard
05:49:51 <b_jonas> I sometimes sleep short and feel refreshed, or sleep very long, but I don't get confused about the time, I almost always sleep in a way that I know approximately how much time I slept, without a clock
05:50:38 <oren> wait that's not the right model...
05:50:50 <Taneb> But I had a really bad night on Sunday night and was tired for most of yesterday
05:52:06 <b_jonas> apparently the keyboards sold in Sweden have two Swedish keyboard layouts printed on them, which differ only in two keys: the ; and ' have ö and ä swapped
05:52:55 <zzo38> I have made up a VM as well as Minesweeper and Robotfindskitten and Munching Squares and a few other examples
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05:54:08 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/prog/quackvm.zip - Source-codes is provided, and needs xterm and Linux to run; CTRL+Q quits and CTRL+R restarts.
05:55:57 <oren> right. it's acer aspire 6920ZG, note the Z, for, uh... really really bog
05:57:46 <oren> http://regmedia.co.uk/2008/03/14/acer_6920_1.jpg
06:04:21 * Sgeo wonders if zzo38 would like Hack ASM
06:05:57 <izabera> zzo38: some browser don't support gopher -__-
06:06:22 <Taneb> Trivia: I have a gopher-accessible selfie
06:06:30 <Taneb> It is the only thing I have put in the gopherspace
06:07:55 <zzo38> izabera: Yes, some don't, but some do and there are also standalone gopher clients, and extensions to support gopher in some browsers
06:09:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43921&oldid=43670 * Hppavilion1 * (+46) Fixed formatting (whoops)
06:10:14 <Taneb> Oh right, my esolangs page is also accessible via gopher
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06:10:26 <Taneb> And an interpreter fro brainfuck in Snap
06:10:27 <izabera> http://www.anybrowser.org/campaign/ you two read this
06:11:44 <Taneb> I believe I've seen that before, and agree with the sentiment
06:12:34 <b_jonas> Yeah... back ages ago I once had a cgi page that printed a Best Viewed With marker for the other browser than the one you were using
06:13:46 <b_jonas> back in those days sites had said “Best Viewed By Internet Explorer at resolution 800x600” or something. These days they don't say that, they're just silently broken on most browsers and window sizes and font sizes other than what they were testing for.
06:13:52 <lifthrasiir> (you don't need parallax to view this page)
06:14:21 <Taneb> "This is best viewed in a browser"
06:14:37 <Taneb> "Stop reading it using curl"
06:14:40 <b_jonas> lifthrasiir: no, I don't want that either. a webpage should be readable without eyes too, on a Braille terminal or screen reader or with the bytes relayed directly to my mind or whatever
06:14:42 <zzo38> I just don't do anything that cares about such things; leave the client to decide the best way to render it. Gopher requires this.
06:14:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's the correct approach
06:15:23 <Taneb> I have no idea if my esolangs page (the only page I really maintain) is readable with a screen reader or Braille terminal
06:15:29 <b_jonas> and it's generally easy too, with only a few cases where it's difficult because of some feature I want not accessible in an easy portable way
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06:16:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: what matters most for that is that you don't put important information (like text of the links on a menu listing the pages of your site) in images showing text only, but also as text (possibly alt text)
06:16:45 <lifthrasiir> b_jonas: I tried to add "best viewed with one or more computing apparatuses" and gave up
06:17:01 <Taneb> b_jonas, the only image is a little public domain button at the end
06:17:21 <izabera> many people use an image representation of their email address
06:17:51 <Taneb> No, mine is in plain text and uses no techniques to forestall spiders
06:17:51 <izabera> http://aiju.de/ but there's this other approach
06:17:52 <zzo38> But you can also use a text description of your email address, that is also used
06:17:53 <b_jonas> izabera: I use both an image representation and an obfuscated text on my homepage
06:18:13 <oren> most of my pages can be read using curl
06:18:26 <izabera> b_jonas: obfuscated like "feed this to a brainfuck interpreter"?
06:18:36 <b_jonas> izabera: as in Contact e-mail: <img src="http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/sc/email-c.png" alt="ambrus@@mmaatthh..bbmmee..hhuu" style="position: relative; top: 4px;">
06:18:51 <zzo38> I mostly just use plain text files anyways, so you can easily just use command-line program anyways
06:18:58 <oren> specifically, if you leave off the .htm, you will typically get a plain text version
06:19:09 <oren> because of some cgi i wrote
06:19:20 <b_jonas> but that's from way back. these days I don't hav to matter because I get lots of academic spam from my email appearing in metadata of scientific publications in plain text unobfuscated
06:19:53 <izabera> just thought i'd mention that my pastebin, http://arin.ga serves a raw version when viewed with curl and wget, or a html version with a browser
06:20:46 <lifthrasiir> I have a TeX representation for my email address: \sideset{someone}{\!mearie}{\mathop{@}}\!_\cdot org
06:21:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: I use HTML even for most of the simple pages (eg. http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/verst and the other two poems quoted on my homepage): that makes it slightly easier to provide metadata, and people can still read or copy the text easily.
06:21:22 <lifthrasiir> (of course, I have also noted that any email pointing to the present domain will reach me)
06:21:27 <Taneb> Hmm, my esolangs page doesn't get through w3c's validator unscathed
06:21:59 <zzo38> I put metadata only using <LINK> tags in the root page (that's all it contains), since that is the only page that needs metadata.
06:22:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, that works too, at least if you make sure the http headers are correct
06:22:42 <b_jonas> there are some metadata you can give as either a http header or html elements
06:22:53 <b_jonas> the html elements were first, but then they invented a solution for non-html data
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06:23:15 <zzo38> Well, the stuff I have tried it with (only OpenID actually, so far) do work
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06:25:27 <b_jonas> But basically I thought, if the html page contains mostly text without tags, then people can read the source even without a html viewer, so I don't bother keeping it text
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06:26:28 <zzo38> Yes, that does help too.
06:27:46 <b_jonas> There's a HTTP headers for giving the language of the text, and I think there's some for giving the canonical url (same as <link rel="canonical"> in html) and instructions for crawlers to index or not index it
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06:28:08 <b_jonas> oh, I think one for the title too
06:28:28 <b_jonas> because plain text is plain text and doesn't have a general way to represent any of these
06:28:31 <zzo38> I just can use robots.txt to tell crawlers not to index it (although I allowed wget)
06:29:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, robots.txt tells about the noindex, but you may also want to tell about the nofollow, for user-submitted material that contains spam
06:30:11 <b_jonas> to indicate that even though it contains links to buy-rolex-sunglasses-cheap-online.com, you're not trying to say that's a good site
06:30:27 <b_jonas> but you still want to allow the robots to crawl and make that page searchable
06:31:27 <b_jonas> practically speaking, the encoding and language are the most important for plain text
06:31:35 <zzo38> I don't like to use nofollow
06:31:56 <zzo38> I just use ASCII encoding so it doesn't matter.
06:32:45 <lifthrasiir> (that's also why I think rel=nofollow etc. is a bit unfortunate, since it really has to be a container attribute affecting all descendants)
06:33:28 <zzo38> Even for untrusted HTML, I don't like to use nofollow, or to obey it except for internal links.
06:49:54 <zzo38> I just use plain text mostly, it works fine
06:51:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, but obviously ASCII encoding won't work for me for those three poems, they contain non-ascii, so I have to specify an explicit encoding
06:52:09 <zzo38> Yes, in that case you do.
06:52:10 <b_jonas> (namely utf-8 or iso-8859-2)
06:52:38 <zzo38> But ASCII should be use when possible. Of course in some cases it isn't, so you use other encodings
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06:56:42 <oerjan> hm, hungarian poetry with only ascii characters
06:57:13 <oerjan> that's probably a lot harder than with norwegian
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06:58:27 <zzo38> Yes, but it is one kind of restrictive writing to try I suppose, like they make poetry with other kinds of restrictive writing too (no "e", word lengths must follow a predefined pattern, initial letters of each word must spell out a prefix of the full poem, etc)
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07:24:19 <mroman> oerjan: being fit probably includes surfing .
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07:27:10 <oerjan> if you're australian, yes. if you're norwegian, somewhat more doubtful.
07:43:06 <zzo38> Do you any like a tsume shogi game?
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08:01:56 <zzo38> Now I am finding level 63 difficult
08:02:30 <Taneb> I am going to head off now, I think
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08:07:28 <zzo38> The king is going to escape
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08:12:02 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> hm, hungarian poetry with only ascii characters" -- that's hard, because á and é are very common letters
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08:20:32 <izabera> someone hacked an italian gov site http://www.giustiziaminorile.it/
08:21:21 <izabera> they wrote a couple of meaningless sentences with several spelling mistakes in a green monospaced font + low res jpeg picture as a background
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12:20:25 <Taneb> izabera, I can't work out what that translates to... Children's Justice?
12:20:35 <Taneb> ("giustiziaminorile" that is)
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12:28:24 <oren> They also put that consipracy theory music on the sitr
12:29:18 <Taneb> Like, the child courts?
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12:33:20 <oren> apparently yes
12:33:36 <oren> https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dipartimento_per_la_giustizia_minorile
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14:42:19 <izabera> Taneb: yes, sorry for not explaining it
15:00:07 <izabera> http://www.yoda.arachsys.com/pics/calling/ these are actual pictures of jon skeet
15:00:16 <izabera> highest rep on stackoverflow
15:12:00 <Taneb> He looks like someone who has fun
15:13:25 <izabera> there's a link to his christian preaching site
15:13:50 <myname> the girl with the leash looks like she has fun
16:09:09 <int-e> tsk, why does Isabelle make it so hard to define functions that aren't actually functions ;-)
16:10:21 <izabera> this is not the first time i ask it
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16:49:20 <int-e> sorry, I should probably try to start a conversation on #isabelle instead
16:49:59 <fizzie> Grumble grumble websites that disable pasting into password boxes.
16:53:10 <ashl> i wonder what they think they're achieving with that
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17:31:27 <izabera> oren: are you erik demaine?
17:44:35 <int-e> fizzie: that sounds like a ridiculously bad idea
17:45:18 <int-e> "my password is so much safer now that I had to paste it to an editor window in order to copy it"
17:49:40 <Slereah> Eh, you are more at risk from password bruteforcing than you are of hackers getting in your computer
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17:52:31 <myname> bruteforcers won't use copy&paste
17:52:40 <ashl> citation needed.
17:53:03 <ashl> presumably the reason for pasting is that they use randomly generated password
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17:53:11 <myname> doing stuff by hand takes way too much time and work
17:53:20 <ashl> seems much more likely that such passwords would be stolen than brute-forced
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18:38:42 <b_jonas> Has anyone written self-fulfilling statements about controversial incompatible grammar changes, such that eg. in the standard grammar X the statement parses as (I hope that the gods forbid me that (I have used grammar Y, which will not happen).),
18:38:59 <b_jonas> but in the heretic grammar Y it parses as (I hope that ((the gods forbid me that I have used grammar Y), which will not happen))?
18:39:14 <b_jonas> I'm trying to compose a nice statment like that about the heretic cucmen variant of the lojban grammar.
18:40:09 <b_jonas> Making such a statent is possible, but I'd also like to make it nice, so that it doesn't sound too contreived, and is somewhat robust.
18:40:47 <Hoolootwo> that almost sounds like INTERCAL's abstain
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18:54:50 <mauris> actually, what on earth is a "heretic grammar" even
18:56:41 <mauris> <fizzie> Grumble grumble websites that disable pasting into password boxes. <-- at least with browsers you can probably just fiddle with the input box using dev tools
18:56:51 <shachaf> mauris: i know someone who's even maurer than you
18:58:41 <mauris> yes i believe i've seen this someone in #haskell
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19:18:17 <b_jonas> mauris: by heretic variant, I mean it is a language that I disdain and claim shouldn't ever be used, because it is so incompatible with lojban that both speaking it will confuse listeners who expect lojban and speaking lojban will confuse listeners who expect cucmen, and even if you are aware of both of them, it is often hard to write sentences in a way that they have identical meaning in both. unlike, say, C and C++, where it is easy to write C code tha
19:18:29 <b_jonas> unlike, say, C and C++, where it is easy to write C code that also works in C++ if you know the basic differences.
19:19:17 <mauris> if i google "cucmen +lojban" i get zero results; where is this a thing?
19:20:19 <mauris> but i guess you mean: a sentence that is true in both languages but parses differently
19:20:28 <b_jonas> mauris: by cucmen in particular, I mean what's sometimes called "cmevla-brivla merger" or something like that (but that's a bad name). it's the grammar variant that removes the (sumti-6 -> LA [relative-clauses] CMENE) production and adds the (tanru-unit-2 -> CMEVLA) production.
19:21:11 <b_jonas> some people speak this variant and even try to advocate it.
19:22:16 <mauris> haha. i love how lojban is supposedly perfectly unambiguous, but it really isn't, because people keep pulling shit like this
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19:23:46 <b_jonas> mauris: yes, and that modified language doesn't even deserve to be called lojban, unlike some extensions that are actually good.
19:24:26 <b_jonas> I want to make a public statement that if someone knowingly and deliberately keeps using cucmen even after he is taught of the errors in his ways, he is a heretic and shall be excummunicated, and shall ask the gods for foregiveness by repeating that prayer, in lojban, and understand it.
19:24:42 <mauris> like apparently they were changing what "lo" means, but all of the tutorials still explained old "lo", and it made me realize the language was silly and i sort of lost interest.
19:25:22 <b_jonas> And the prayer shall be self-fulfilling in the sense that they can't speak it in cucmen and still hope the gods will foregive them.
19:25:51 <b_jonas> But if they see the light and speak it in lojban, the gods will already have forgiven them.
19:26:27 <b_jonas> Does this make sense, at least in #esoteric ?
19:27:30 <b_jonas> So I'm asking if anyone has already done some statement similar to this, about possibly other topics than cucmen.
19:28:36 <b_jonas> The goal is that the statement shouldn't seem to be contreived for this purpose, but should sound natural, so as to demonstrate in a self-contained way why cucmen is a bad idea and is very incompatible with lojban.
19:28:43 <mauris> (even when i google "cucmen" "lo" "mi" i find no sources calling this thing that. is it your own nickname for the concept, or?)
19:28:54 <b_jonas> mauris: it's my own nickname, yes
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19:30:08 <b_jonas> the name others use is something like "cmevla-brivla merger" but that's a _bad_ name, because that makes it sound as if it's a conservative extension that permits you to use cmevla in more ways. in reality, it's changing cmevla so you usually can't use them in ways that you can in lojban.
19:31:42 <b_jonas> I needed a short nickname that's easy to remember and recognize, and I also wanted it to be a cmevla (or juxtaposition of multiple cmevla) because I think that helps compose this statement.
19:32:14 <b_jonas> As in, the statement will probably contain the word "cucmen" and use that to help the ambiguous parsing.
19:32:43 <b_jonas> But I haven't got the statement yet, so it's possible it won't actually have that word, or won't use it in a way significant for the parsing difference.
19:33:33 <b_jonas> It's also possible that what I wrote above won't be the meaning of the statement of course. I chose that particular meaning because I think it's possible to write the statement to mean roughly those two things, but I might have to change it to actually work.
19:42:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Nooodl/vector.css]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43922 * Nooodl * (+48) Created page with "h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6 { font-family: Georgia; }"
19:43:28 <mauris> i... i like serif headers. what can i say
19:46:32 <b_jonas> I can make the declaration say that you have to pray to something like "lo la .lojban. cafyfraxu cevni" = the merciful gods of Lobjan, which is an example for a phrase that isn't trivial to modify in a way that it parses correctly in both lojban and cucmen.
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20:02:15 <b_jonas> I think that in the prayer, I want to use a phrase with form similar to {lo nu co'e la .cucme. poi brodi poi brodu} where the {poi brodu} part is an inner qualifier for the whole phrase, but in cucme it is an outer qualifier for the {la .cucme.},
20:03:33 <b_jonas> only that way it doesn't have the right meaning, because it's not cucme that I want to qualify, but the forgiving.
20:04:15 <b_jonas> I'll have to think of how this works
20:41:54 <b_jonas> Lua has changed a lot since I last looked at it (at version 5.1). I should look at the details.
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21:39:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * IfThenElse * New user account
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21:47:27 <oerjan> <b_jonas> "<oerjan> hm, hungarian poetry with only ascii characters" -- that's hard, because á and é are very common letters <-- my guess is it's still easier than doing without e in norwegian, and possibly even english?
21:48:09 <oerjan> as in, what i recall from hungarian grammar is that the most basic suffixes don't have long vowels unless the root ends with a vowel.
21:51:50 <fizzie> Somehow I thought an "IfThenElse" account already existed, it sounded familiar.
21:51:51 <oerjan> in norwegian nearly all verb suffixes (except "strong" verbs past tense) contain e, as do all the articles.
21:52:41 <oerjan> and most of the noun endings too
21:53:09 <oerjan> but nouns don't have suffixes in the indefinite singular.
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21:54:50 <oerjan> nynorsk fares a little better on the verbs, they often have a instead
21:55:14 <oerjan> oh no:har = en:has works
21:55:31 <oerjan> (either bokmål or nynorsk)
21:56:12 <oerjan> i suppose poetry can get away with leaving out articles a lot
21:56:54 <fizzie> oerjan: Poetry can get away with not using any real words, I think, if you're flexible enough.
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21:57:37 <oerjan> yep http://www.nale.no/nale/favourites/jevkulturuke.html
21:58:23 <oerjan> only the title and final word are real (although the final word needs an extra l)
21:59:02 <oerjan> and yet the meaning of the poem is perfectly clear
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22:00:07 <shachaf> oerjan: the meaning is not perfectly clear hth
22:00:21 <fizzie> "Cannot read property 'row' of null" it's not good.
22:00:36 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I'm still awake
22:00:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, it's probably easier than writing without "e" in English
22:01:04 <mauris> oerjan: what do the title and final word +l mean?
22:01:04 <oerjan> shachaf: it is if you know the meaning of those two words hth
22:01:25 <oerjan> mauris: culture week (a kind of festival) and cowpie nonsense
22:01:44 <oerjan> (a _rural_ festival, generally)
22:02:16 <shachaf> oerjan: is one of them something a rooster says twh
22:02:18 <oerjan> (well, frequently, anyway)
22:02:25 <mauris> here's something similar http://www.libellulus.com/article-ulcerations-111381103.html
22:02:39 <oerjan> shachaf: that would be "kykelipi", except for the final two letters
22:02:57 <oerjan> (i.e. the title of the entire poetry collection)
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22:03:34 <shachaf> in hebrew a rooster says "kukuriku"
22:03:46 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
22:03:49 <shachaf> apparently that's true in croatian too??
22:05:42 <shachaf> mauris: have you considered changing your name to maurest
22:06:09 <oerjan> hm there's a single word in that word that isn't an anagram of the rest
22:06:26 <mauris> shachaf: someone's gotta be the positive degree
22:11:31 <oerjan> here's a live reading by the poet hth https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz8hxErxhBI
22:11:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: I just did a quick search (may have bugs) among Arany János's poems in Hungarian for consecutive sequences of entire lines containing only ascii.
22:12:03 <b_jonas> The longest there is is only 10 words.
22:12:37 <oerjan> so, not something you do by chance
22:14:21 <b_jonas> In case you're curious, tied for the longest is the last two lines of the famous ballad Ágnes Asszony.
22:16:09 <b_jonas> And in this book of his poems, en-dashes, quotation marks, and italicized text (all three of which he uses regularly) are all represented as ASCII characters, so this is a very charitable interpretation of ASCII-only.
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22:20:51 <b_jonas> Wait, my search has a bug.
22:27:47 <b_jonas> Longest found now is 18 words.
22:35:59 <oerjan> why does google search only give you the choice between "all languages" and "whichever language is your setup"? there's no fucking way to say i want anything _but_ hungarian.
22:36:41 <oerjan> (trying to find any english description about the poem)
22:37:26 <mauris> try https://www.google.com/preferences
22:38:04 <mauris> err, https://www.google.com/preferences#languages
22:38:07 <shachaf> Or https://www.google.com/advanced_search ?
22:38:49 <oerjan> hm advanced search looks more promising
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22:39:49 <oerjan> the trouble is, google.no doesn't have advanced_search listed anywhere.
22:40:18 <shachaf> i found it via https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=advanced+search hth
22:41:33 <oerjan> bah i still get only album listings and videos
22:43:06 <oerjan> i guess this will have to do http://virginmediashorts.com/film/4478/the-ballad-of-mistress-agnes
22:46:08 * oerjan wonders if google is removing and hiding all the really good search options because they're too computation intensive
22:46:41 * oerjan watches fizzie and pikhq accusingly
22:46:58 <shachaf> hah, out of the accusation zone
22:47:20 <oerjan> oh did you use to work at google
22:47:48 <oerjan> i'm sure this is extensively described in the google non-disclosure agreement
22:56:20 <fizzie> oerjan: There was a third one too, I forget who.
22:57:37 <fizzie> FWIW, if I search something at google.com, then the SRP's "cogwheel" menu does have an "Advanced search" option.
22:57:53 <fizzie> Where you can set any particular language.
22:58:24 <fizzie> Uh, where SRP is the "search results page", sorry.
22:58:24 <shachaf> But you can't exclude languages.
22:58:57 <fizzie> Is it something else? I don't really remember, it's just "the serp".
23:00:01 <shachaf> I've forgotten so many Google code names and things.
23:00:22 <fizzie> They certainly like having code names and terms, I've noticed that much.
23:02:29 <fizzie> Aw, the let-sen-crypt launch was pushed back.
23:02:38 <fizzie> "General availability: Week of November 16, 2015"
23:02:46 <fizzie> I think it was supposed to be either August or September.
23:03:34 <shachaf> I do remember a build system with an unfortunate name.
23:03:40 <shachaf> So unfortunate that they renamed it.
23:04:35 <fizzie> Well, they've got http://bazel.io/ open-sourced now.
23:05:32 <shachaf> Not that one, the thing with the web UI.
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23:05:55 <fizzie> If they've renamed it, I might not have heard of the previous name.
23:06:19 <shachaf> It has a very fast new name.
23:07:53 <shachaf> whoa, speaking of Google websites, did you come across that one great site?
23:07:58 <shachaf> I probably shouldn't talk about it in here.
23:08:42 <fizzie> Sorry, go/that-one-great-site didn't go anywhere.
23:10:01 <shachaf> Hmm, is go/<confidential-deployment-system>guy still around?
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23:16:08 <olsner> oh, did shachaf stop working at google?
23:16:50 <HackEgo> 304) <Gregor> Google Maps has options for "avoid highways" and "avoid tolls", but no "avoid Chicago" \ 672) <Vorpal> <ais523> northern ireland is quite a way to drag someone from scotland <-- not really. I just checked in google earth <ais523> Vorpal: but dragging people across water's a bit tricky \ 769) <oerjan> Gregor: hey no fair doing ungoogl
23:16:57 <shachaf> I haven't worked at Google for over a year.
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23:24:01 <fizzie> shachaf: There are 128 different "go/<X>guy"s, as far as I can tell. Plus the web-based list searches only by prefix, not by regex, which is silly.
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00:02:44 <HackEgo> [U+01B7 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER EZH]
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00:26:58 <oerjan> shachaf: is this about right http://stackoverflow.com/questions/32223859/whats-the-difference-between-a-lens-and-a-partial-lens/32238680#32238680
00:27:53 <shachaf> http://stackoverflow.com/a/32238680 is about right
00:28:31 <shachaf> I think "affine traversal" is the thing people usually mean by "partial lens".
00:28:54 <oerjan> yeah but they're not defined by lens
00:29:11 <shachaf> Oh, you talk about it later.
00:29:16 <oerjan> (evidence: lens does not depend on pointed)
00:29:34 <shachaf> What! lens doesn't depend on something?
00:29:42 <oerjan> strangely the opposite notion _is_ in lens (using Apply)
00:29:42 <oren> @tell izabera I'm not erik demaine, I'm Oren Watson
00:29:52 <edwardk> we don't bother with affine traversals as there aren't any extra combinators it gives us
00:29:56 <edwardk> just crippled ones of the ones we have
00:30:10 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, seems to make sense.
00:30:18 <oerjan> edwardk: you could make that a comment if you like
00:30:22 <shachaf> "we don't provide Maybe in the standard library because we already have lists"
00:30:32 <oerjan> except then i'd really feel like i was fishing for rep
00:31:52 <edwardk> shachaf: nah, just we already have (^?) and it is powerful enough to work on any of them
00:32:41 <shachaf> Sure, but foo :: AffineTraversal ... is more informative than foo :: Traversal ...
00:33:16 <shachaf> You can make the same analogy with lists.
00:34:07 <oerjan> now generalize that to categories
00:34:15 <oerjan> i guess profunctor fits in there
00:34:17 <shachaf> find :: (a -> Bool) -> [a] -> [a]
00:34:54 <shachaf> Er, find f = take 1 . filter f
00:35:16 <shachaf> oerjan: Pointed as a superclass of Applicative would be a bit of a scow, though.
00:35:26 <shachaf> oerjan: You'd need to add Default as a superclass of Monoid to really make it work.
00:36:30 <oerjan> shachaf: there are a lot of things that are scow because haskell isn't good at typeclass defaulting
00:39:24 <shachaf> oerjan: Also I'm not logged in so you don't need to worry about fishing for rep hth
00:40:01 <shachaf> oerjan: Anyway, the lens laws don't break when you have a lens to Maybe.
00:40:04 <shachaf> Unless you break them, I guess.
00:40:08 <shachaf> But at is a great and valid lens.
00:40:33 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean they break if you try to use it for the "nth element of list" case
00:41:15 <shachaf> I guess those are the things you say.
00:42:45 <shachaf> Does Scala have a library called lenz?
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01:20:51 <tswett> data Expression = ExpressionApply TermId [Expression]
01:21:04 <tswett> Yeah... that'll do it.
01:25:24 <shachaf> http://i.imgur.com/G932zYW.gif
01:25:37 <shachaf> that's how i'm imagining tswett right now
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01:28:22 <dipperswett> Dipper Swett is the name I'm using for Magic: the Gathering purposes.
01:34:01 <HackEgo> [U+30DF KATAKANA LETTER MI]
01:35:32 <coppro> http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082617gm-0029-0000-11467df8&tw=2&ts=1
01:36:29 <boily> chelloppro! another outrageousnessity?
01:37:38 <boily> coppro: you are a disgusting person :P
01:39:14 <coppro> boily: yes, collecting yakumans for the wiki
01:39:32 <oerjan> boily: er, should i click
01:40:54 <boily> mahjong. definitely mahjong. and coppro is channeling eldritch powers in order to torture the tiles to his bidding.
01:41:02 * oerjan clicked and got no wiser, anyway
01:42:04 <coppro> boily: no, that wasn't me
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01:43:54 <coppro> just a replay I found on the ykm page
01:44:09 <coppro> the only yakuman I've gotten is one runofthemill suuankou
01:48:59 <boily> one day I'll manage to get the gates. those are one elusive yakuman.
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01:53:46 <coppro> there was a junsei chuuren yesterday, and a regular one today
01:54:40 <coppro> http://tenhou.net/0/?log=2015082512gm-0009-0000-206be279&tw=2&ts=1 is disgusting
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03:04:35 <zzo38> I have once gotten renhou, but that's all (it was on a computer game where that rule is always enabled in the scenario being played)
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03:53:05 <coppro> zzo38: you should come to one of our mahjong clubs
03:54:25 <zzo38> What rule options/variants do you use? Do you have any automatic table? What time? Etc?
03:54:54 <coppro> my club currently plays mondays in Waterloo, boily's is Sundays in montreal
03:55:00 <coppro> (not every monday/sunday)
03:55:18 <coppro> our rules are here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RNeXCKS6JZU5fvDHfCP7jW8c2629nC5zRJBN2iWvjhE/edit?usp=drive_web
03:55:38 <zzo38> I don't live there anyways and do not intend to travel there any time soon.
03:55:47 <coppro> montreal's is http://riichi.ca/site/
03:56:24 <zzo38> (I live at British Columbia)
04:00:19 <Sgeo> Finally using free Internet access
04:11:21 <Sgeo> Internet access now costs me $0/month
04:13:37 <shachaf> now you can finally play prismata
04:15:30 <Sgeo> Wow, that's incredible! Because I couldn't before
04:15:40 <pikhq> shachaf: It is rather dangerous sitting next to mulrich at dinner when you don't say "no" forcefully enough.
04:15:40 <Sgeo> </failed-attempt-to-be-similar-to-an-old-joke)
04:16:01 <pikhq> Sorry, correction, mulrich and mattsie.
04:16:09 <shachaf> Spot of the sauzzle, governor?
04:16:31 <pikhq> Also, can confirm, gmail SRE still uses scow.
04:17:39 <pikhq> A wide beamed sailing dinghy.
04:17:53 <lambdabot> *** "scow" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
04:17:53 <lambdabot> n 1: any of various flat-bottomed boats with sloping ends
04:17:53 <lambdabot> 2: a barge carrying bulk materials in an open hold
04:18:07 <shachaf> that's the scow of definitions
04:18:40 <pikhq> The margaritas were not scow, however.
04:19:21 <shachaf> La Fiesta is great. They have grandma sauce.
04:19:37 <shachaf> Was it involved in the aforementioned sauzzle?
04:19:53 <pikhq> I had chile colorado.
04:20:37 <pikhq> Though it's somewhat humorous having your boss be involved in aforementioned sauzzle.
04:22:49 <pikhq> It's kinda funny that of all the places to end up at Google, I ended up in apps SRE.
04:24:22 <coppro> (I don't know why I'm laughing(
04:24:43 <pikhq> coppro: Just, everyone who's been there long enough knows shachaf.
04:25:04 <shachaf> What are they saying about me?
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04:25:31 <shachaf> Today fizzie dug up a list of go/ links mentioning me.
04:25:40 <pikhq> coppro: shachaf used to work with 'em is all.
04:26:00 <coppro> say hi to gavin for me
04:26:08 <coppro> (gavin doesn't work in your department, building, or possibly company)
04:27:05 <Sgeo> shachaf, you worked with Go?
04:29:02 <pikhq> I started learning Go.
04:29:20 <shachaf> Are you involved with [redacted]?
04:29:20 <Sgeo> I think I like Rust
04:29:58 <shachaf> A Go project used for -- deployments?
04:30:08 <shachaf> Or rollout automation or something.
04:30:44 <pikhq> I've done some CLs on stuff with it.
04:30:47 <pikhq> It's actually pretty neat.
04:31:20 <shachaf> Neater than the thing it replaces?
04:34:24 -!- Jafet has set topic: The channel where [REDACTED] | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
04:36:32 <pikhq> I don't know what it replaced.
04:39:43 <Sgeo> Will Go ever have generics or a sufficient replacement that doesn't lose static typing?
04:39:55 <pikhq> Sgeo: Fuck if I know.
04:39:56 <shachaf> Do you still have a certain push and rollback system?
04:40:20 <pikhq> I don't know, I'm just a simple SRE.
04:41:37 <coppro> shachaf: when did you work there?
04:44:09 <shachaf> How about a build web UI thing which is very fast?
04:44:54 <coppro> you could move to pm you know
04:45:04 <coppro> and actually say words :P
04:45:22 <pikhq> Welcome to Google, the place where words
04:46:06 <shachaf> People at Google most communicate using funny pictures with a few words on them.
04:46:57 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that's the official bug report tool now.
04:47:50 <coppro> I know, I've seen them
04:48:20 <coppro> I went to TGIF once, and a thing happened, and when I went back to my desk, a coworker was providing an accurate retelling of the story, entirely from pictures.
04:49:36 <izabera> https://gist.github.com/izabera/c1c664d542f8ef4f383c it's 6 am and i wrote this
04:52:30 <shachaf> pikhq: Has jamming come up?
04:52:50 <pikhq> I think so but I don't recall for sure.
04:54:46 <pikhq> You're asking six-margaritas pikhq.
04:55:34 <shachaf> I feel like this would be better in an unlogged channel.
04:56:44 <pikhq> HEY GOOGLE, I'M LEAKING PROPRIETARY INFORMATION ABOUT THE NEW [REDACTED] [REDACTED] FOR [REDACTED]!
04:57:09 <coppro> I worked at google prior to you two
04:57:12 <coppro> and have no idea what you're talking about
04:57:34 <pikhq> If it makes you feel better, *I* don't know what shachaf's referring to.
04:57:46 <shachaf> I'm not talking about the Google things.
04:58:10 <shachaf> pikhq: If it makes you feel better, you aren't the most sauzzled individual here.
04:58:38 <shachaf> By "here" I mean "among the people at La Fiesta".
04:58:52 <pikhq> I sat next to mulrich.
04:59:07 <pikhq> Or do you mean you're at La Fiesta right now?
04:59:33 <shachaf> I mean that someone is sending sauzzled messages, is all.
04:59:51 <pikhq> Are they humorous?
05:03:18 <pikhq> As did Noggles, though I don't recall too well how.
05:07:07 <hppavilion[1]> You know how Wikipedia has "Introduction to..." articles?
05:13:52 <shachaf> I think maybe it might be better not to do it at all.
05:14:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43923 * Hppavilion1 * (+359) Created Page
05:15:13 <shachaf> pikhq: I'm told that you chetted about me.
05:15:23 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking that if we slowly pool knowledge on what makes a good Esolang, we'll eventually get more gems like Befunge and Unlambda
05:15:26 <pikhq> An event reminded me of you.
05:15:56 <pikhq> Something to do with drinking and you getting drunk without drinking.
05:16:22 <shachaf> By the way, it's spelled "Naugles".
05:16:35 <shachaf> "au" is very popular for some reason.
05:17:05 <shachaf> http://www.ocmexfood.com/images/naugles.jpg
05:17:10 <pikhq> Anywho, I'm going to go collapse in a bed.
05:17:20 <shachaf> Give me the details of the chets.
05:17:59 <hppavilion[1]> Guys, how would you describe a Truly Brilliant Esolang
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05:21:01 <mauris> opinions probably vary but i like esolangs that either (a) introduce a way of programming that's totally dissimilar to other existing languages, and (b) is at least reasonably powerful, but not trivially so
05:21:10 <zzo38> If it does, then yes I suppose it may be
05:21:34 <zzo38> Although yes opinions can vary, and they can even vary despite opinions, so is good you can have many kind
05:28:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Introduction to Esolang Design]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43924&oldid=43923 * Hppavilion1 * (+1418) Extended the article
05:30:44 <hppavilion[1]> I think we need to design an Interrogative Language
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05:42:57 <Sgeo> What does Braintrust count as?
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06:04:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43925&oldid=43457 * Oerjan * (+80) fmt, section/link case
06:21:45 <oerjan> i find calamari's claim of having fixed his site slightly dubious tdnh
06:30:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43926&oldid=43911 * Oerjan * (-282) /* Hodor */ It's not a real Hello world, and it doesn't have a page.
06:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43927&oldid=43675 * Oerjan * (+3) link, typo
06:37:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43928&oldid=43478 * Oerjan * (+51) unsigned
06:40:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Useless]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43929&oldid=43480 * Oerjan * (+26) /* External resources */ describe link more
06:40:28 <zzo38> What does "Interrogative Language" mean?
06:42:58 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Passalambida <-- this is spam but wikis are really bad so i can't delete or flag it hth?
06:43:01 <zzo38> Can you put my Robotfindskitten implementation on the list with the rest of them? (Mainly I did it as an example of a program for the VM)
06:43:41 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I have no clue what an interrogative Language is, that's what we have to make up
06:43:43 <zzo38> You can blank the page, and you may be able to add a template or category to flag it
06:43:59 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: O, OK, once we can learn what it is (by making it up), then it can be done.
06:44:12 <mauris> yes, i was wondering if there's a template that marks pages for deletion
06:44:26 <zzo38> I don't know if esolang wiki has any such template
06:45:32 <hppavilion[1]> Make a weird mishmash of Lambda Calculus, Combinatorics, and Formal Logic
06:45:50 <zzo38> (I made a Minesweeper implementation for the same VM, too; also Munching Squares)
06:46:14 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Ah, OK, if you can figure out how, but also look to see if there are things close to it already on there, in some kind of ways.
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06:47:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43930&oldid=43571 * Oerjan * (+16) links, section case
06:48:17 <zzo38> And, if you do not understand Unlambda, then you should learn.
06:50:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Passalambida]]": Spam: Well, mauris said it so it has to be true (others may just call it CRAP)
06:52:01 <oerjan> to make an interrogative language, we must first answer the question "what is an interrogative language" hth
06:52:02 <mauris> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ThisIsNotARealLanguage <-- this i can't tell if it's CRAP or a beautiful piece of modern performance art...
06:53:06 <zzo38> Neither; it is a joke, but still is not quite written good enough (therefore, it might be consider as a stub)
06:54:52 <oerjan> mauris: welcome to the world of Maxsteele2.
06:55:12 <oerjan> see also: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mugh_brains
06:55:46 <mauris> yeah, all of their languages are of questionable quality??
06:56:07 <oerjan> we're not big on quality control
06:57:21 <mauris> i've noticed before. that's probably good! ~embrace the crap~
06:57:31 <ashl> questionable quality
06:59:18 <oerjan> i do, however, have a slowly lapsing habit of looking through everything in Recent Changes. recently i've had to edit the url by hand because the link options don't go more than 30 days back.
07:00:24 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with the olist delay
07:00:47 <oerjan> shachaf: well ending the world needs to be done with care, naturally
07:01:35 * oerjan now wonders what an accusative language would look like. but not too deeply.
07:02:14 <ashl> an accusative language?
07:03:32 <oerjan> ashl: how dare you even mention the concept!
07:04:38 <zzo38> I suppose "Gentzen" esolang has somewhat to do with formal logic; there may be others too but which seem to be less so as far as I can see (I may be wrong though)
07:04:51 <oerjan> example: Clearly this program is too badly written to print "Hello, World!"
07:05:36 <oerjan> (you achieve things through sufficient shaming)
07:06:05 <oerjan> also, i'm procrastinating food again ->
07:06:23 <ashl> so an accusatory language
07:09:23 <ashl> i don't really know
07:11:36 <oerjan> mmm, Almost Fresh Bread
07:12:52 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: the case normally used for direct objects in nominative-accusative languages hth
07:13:14 <oerjan> (e.g. latin, greek, german, russian)
07:13:18 <zzo38> I also wanted to invent a variant of Gentzen esolang that is using linear logic (possibly, called "Girard"), but I do not quite know how, even though I can know what rules are used with linear logic.
07:13:33 <hppavilion[1]> I don't know much about foriegn languages or linguistics
07:14:00 <oerjan> also hungarian, while finnish has some weird "3 different ways of putting case on objects" thing
07:15:30 <oerjan> and ergative languages have a different common system
07:15:40 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, accusative is just the word "et" in hebrew?
07:15:53 <ashl> but how can a language be accusative
07:16:10 <shachaf> oh, "et" is only for definite nouns
07:16:17 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nota_accusativi
07:16:35 <oerjan> shachaf: hm not sure if hebrew has case, i think arabic does
07:17:15 <oerjan> there are of course many languages that don't use cases at all, or only relics
07:17:26 <shachaf> hebrew doesn't even have uppercase and lowercase
07:17:42 <oerjan> e.g. he vs. him is nominative vs. accusative, but english only has it for pronouns.
07:21:08 <ashl> or do you mean 'nominative-accusative language' by 'accusative language'
07:22:33 <oerjan> ashl: um i was making a pun on "accuse" and the mention of "interrogative language". i take it you're new here?
07:22:46 <zzo38> I have recently had problems to connect to EFnet IRC servers; is there EFnet proxy that can be use to avoid a problem like that?
07:23:05 <oerjan> when in doubt, assume pun. right shachaf?
07:23:17 <ashl> i missed the thing about interrogative languages
07:23:39 <oerjan> that would be confusing
07:23:47 <shachaf> That used to be true, but these days there's no feedback.
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07:24:07 <ashl> i also had ergative-absolutive alignment on my mind for some reason
07:25:38 <shachaf> all i'm saying is, people used to be rewarded for their puns
07:26:05 * oerjan drops the Holy Anvil on shachaf
07:26:14 <oerjan> i'm afraid i don't know how to draw it
07:26:34 <b_jonas> `<oerjan> also hungarian, while finnish has some weird "3 different ways of putting case on objects" thing' -- well, Hungarian also has like three or four ways to put a case onto an object, I think
07:26:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <oerjan>: not found
07:26:46 <oerjan> b_jonas: a direct object?
07:27:00 <shachaf> "et" is used for direct objects, I think.
07:27:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, cases in general
07:27:26 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure -t is the accusative ending in hungarian
07:27:34 <shachaf> Now I'm confused about what this word does.
07:27:45 <oerjan> with appropriate harmonic vowel inserted
07:27:48 <shachaf> What are some other languages that only have a definite article?
07:27:54 <shachaf> Or alternatively only have an indefinite article.
07:28:34 <oerjan> i don't know if there are any that only have indefinite
07:29:03 <shachaf> And it even attaches the definite article to the word, like Hebrew.
07:29:30 <b_jonas> the methods are: (1) suffix the noun (for common cases), (2) add a preposition before it (for some uncommon cases), (3) add a preposition AND a case suffix (very rare), and (4) for personal pronouns in some cases, add a possessive suffix to a base word made of what would normally be a preposition or suffix.
07:29:46 <b_jonas> For objects, only (1) and (4) come up.
07:30:20 <b_jonas> `<shachaf> What are some other languages that only have a definite article?' -- espernato
07:30:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: <shachaf>: not found
07:33:12 <oerjan> also, does "engem" fit any of those
07:34:45 <ashl> what's a rajta-
07:35:21 <oerjan> ashl: a hungarian prefix meaning roughly "on", but which is only used with pronoun endings
07:35:28 <oerjan> (well, that i've learn of)
07:36:01 <oerjan> the _normal_ way of saying "on" is with the -en/on suffix on a noun
07:38:17 <oerjan> so that's a case where those are particularly different
07:39:09 <oerjan> "in", meanwhile, is benn- vs. -ben/ban iirc, so the same system but with similar morphemes
07:39:56 <ashl> i don't know any highly caseful languages
07:41:47 <ashl> i am mildly curious about finnish and hungarian but it doesn't seem like it would be easy to sample them
07:42:48 <oerjan> there are plenty of finns on irc, at least
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07:45:54 <b_jonas> "<oerjan> i don't know if there are any that only have indefinite" -- http://wals.info/chapter/37 says there are some
07:47:19 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://wals.info/feature/37A#2/25.5/148.4 for the list
07:49:32 <oerjan> ooh i've been wanting such a map
07:49:48 <oerjan> clearly articles are more widespread than i thought
07:51:01 <oerjan> huh cantonese and japanese?
07:51:49 <ashl> since when does japanese have an indefinite article
07:51:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: you don't have to always trust wals. it does have some errors.
07:52:19 <oerjan> b_jonas: um that makes it rather hard for me to judge :P
07:53:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: in particular, http://blog.wals.info/datapoint-37a-wals_code_jpn/#comment has a comment by a third party that Japanese does not have an indefinite article
07:53:18 <oerjan> and thai. some rather big languages in that list.
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07:56:22 <oerjan> no comments for the others i mentioned
08:04:19 <oerjan> "Languages with an indefinite article but no definite article are common in an area in Asia stretching from Turkey to India."
08:04:40 <oerjan> i guess turkish and persian at least are genuine, then
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08:15:19 <b_jonas> oren: um, how do you know? just because there's no comment doesn't mean anything.
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08:45:58 <mauris> b_jonas: just because there is a comment doesn't mean anything, either
08:50:51 <mauris> i've investigated the turkish claim slightly and according to wikipedia and some shady web tutorials it seems to check out! "works for me"
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08:55:36 <b_jonas> nice blog entry: http://jacquesmattheij.com/aol-20 "We're heading Straight for AOL 2.0"
08:56:59 <Taneb> Does anyone know of any roguelike with co-operative multiplayer?
08:59:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: try to ask on #nethack or some other channel connected more directly to roguelikes
08:59:40 <myname> what does mangband do with multiplayer?
08:59:51 <Taneb> It feels cheating to ask in #nethack when I don't particularly enjoy Nethack
09:00:20 <myname> innother cases: write one
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09:01:01 <myname> i do think it's pretty hard to do this at least on a turn based system
09:01:28 <Taneb> It could be unfun to have to wait for everyone
09:01:42 <Taneb> But if you're all in physical proximity, or at least can talk to each other
09:03:11 <b_jonas> myname: indeed, the problem is that roguelikes have very fast paced turns and no real-life timeouts
09:04:08 <myname> you could make independent turns for each player, but what do you do with npcs?
09:04:22 <b_jonas> maybe you'd need a keyboard simlar to those of old telegraph machines, where it could physically lock keys so that you can't press them and you can feel that with your finger, and make it lock most keys when it's not your turn
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09:04:57 <b_jonas> Taneb: is there a roguelike that you do enjoy?
09:05:06 <b_jonas> maybe ask them instead of #nethack then
09:05:33 <myname> i do think cataclysm would be fun to multiplay
09:06:14 <Taneb> b_jonas, I quite like Brogue (although I am not good at it) and Pokemon Mystery Dungeon
09:06:23 <Taneb> Although I only really played the first PMDs
09:07:36 <myname> the cataclysm setting just asks for multiplayer
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09:40:02 <HackEgo> baldcoin combcoin colfuccoin unsuitcoin rumcoin outcoin invilcoin pavitacoin nhohnercoin itfaonaillccoin codifyingcoin jottoncoin voenighedcoin minecoin neboolcoin otticoin colacoin magecoin booncoin rfpentcoin
09:40:59 <b_jonas> hmm, colacoin sounds tasty
09:41:06 <HackEgo> ephoracoin tanzcoin vococoin parnasscoin stufecoin muiratefcoin ptercoin syphintcoin urateflincoin falcoin aaterictopadythconveyongwortedcoin rincoin camoicoin sarztcoin dancoin evucoin unshakespringinworcoin carfourcoin memfucicoin bullfcoin
09:41:37 <Taneb> aaterictopadythconveyongwortedcoin is nice also
09:41:51 <Taneb> Why did I type that rather than copy/pasting it?
09:42:05 <b_jonas> unshakespringinworcoin, nice
09:42:25 <b_jonas> but carfourcoin seems like misspelt.
09:44:06 <b_jonas> "memfucicoin" -- hmm, "memfuci" sounds like the name of an esolang
09:46:02 <myname> aaterictopadythconveyongwort also sounds like an esolang
09:46:33 <Taneb> realfastnorashairsalonthreesheardisasterdownloadcoin
09:48:01 <b_jonas> there's actually a "memfuck", maybe "memfuci" is a typo for it
09:48:24 <myname> of course there is memfuck
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10:55:50 <fizzie> `` cat bin/coins # <- not really a surprise they sound like esolangs
10:55:50 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
10:56:24 <HackEgo> upoliyhtymiksencoin päältäcoin säännecoin ymmecoin seuraastaviltannecoin turmemmaksennecoin varsoviksicoin varpastasicoin silleencoin hehkeikkaavalscoin
10:56:42 <fizzie> Local currencies for the global age.
10:57:57 <fizzie> "päältä", "säänne" and "silleen" in the above are all real Finnish words.
10:58:18 <fizzie> "varpastasi" is close -- "varpaastasi" would be.
11:05:53 <boily> fizziello. what do they mean?
11:06:00 <boily> `coins --french 10
11:06:04 <HackEgo> fratorcoin érullinécoin demmecoin checoin raatricumcoin thescoin caloréemencoin vesignediicoin appecoin leptocoin
11:06:23 <boily> `coins --french 10
11:06:24 <HackEgo> ingtcoin dénacoin avimentecoin témorptcoin aisiocoin mandervettacoin gélaiscoin dencoin quegoloncoin déprepuricoin
11:06:35 <HackEgo> seldhügelechtcoin vernernowcoin übergängecoin eligungcoin mehrlinshineascoin ausecoin erzmuscoin stoffiziehungcoin schraetncoin honencoin
11:06:52 <boily> nothing even remotely French in those :(
11:07:06 <myname> one correct german one
11:07:12 <boily> `coins --french 10
11:07:14 <HackEgo> paluscoin polygrosocoin hypochcoin hohecoin pothiérocoin uteuressamcoin oelliercutacoin offrantcoin confircoin sujacoin
11:07:39 <boily> ah! «offrant» is good.
11:07:52 <boily> mynamello. don't ask me which one is correct; it's all German to me.
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11:10:03 <boily> `words --japanese 1
11:10:13 <boily> `words --spanish 1
11:10:23 <boily> `coins --spanish 10
11:10:24 <HackEgo> enparaclcoin litescoin roncoin cnbrinamilcoin dianacoin efeccuriéncoin puntancoin ansilengolcoin strólocoin mediososcoin
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11:22:18 <fizzie> @tell boily päältä 'from on top' (ablative case of päällä 'on top of something', or 'on' as in "the radio is on")
11:22:23 <fizzie> @tell boily säänne 'your (pl.) weather' (second-person plural possessive of sää 'weather')
11:22:29 <fizzie> @tell boily silleen -- a colloquialism that's rather hard to translate without resorting to just listing a bunch of example uses.
11:22:37 <fizzie> @tell boily varpaastasi 'from your toe' (elative case of the second-person singular possessive of varvas 'toe')
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13:01:33 <b_jonas> Argh, I keep for getting this. Hat is a special character interpreted by the windows shell, so it must be quoted.
13:04:01 <ais523> quoting on Windows cmd is utterly bizarre
13:06:26 <b_jonas> sometimes you just have to ('"' . join('" "', map s/(\x5c*("|\z))/\Q$1/gr, @command) . '"')
13:06:50 <b_jonas> sometimes you have to do the same but prepend a second '"' at the beginning
13:07:15 <b_jonas> sometimes the arguments contain a percent sign or somethign and then youre' completely screwed because there's no way to quote a percent sign at all
13:07:33 <b_jonas> and if the argument contain a newline, you're screwed too
13:08:33 <b_jonas> The s/(\x5c*("|\z))/\Q$1/gr part is definitely serious though, that's the _only_ valid way to quote backspaces and double quotes inside a double-quoted string in the shell.
13:09:36 <b_jonas> you must not double backspaces anywhere else than what that regex says.
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13:24:21 <ais523> \x5c is a backslash, right? why not just write \\?
13:24:41 <ais523> wait, no, slightly too low to be a backlash? or, hmm
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13:56:25 <int-e> oh well at least it's consistent
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14:44:47 <HackEgo> pegarlacoin pñntecoin plancoin roncoin gianocoin bonadolacoin dwelladocoin obesscoin sepaiscoin hocoin hidcoin brostcoin pensiscoin creecoin empeñcoin
14:48:51 <dipperswett> "Pegarla" is a real Spanish word ("to hit her/it (feminine)"). "Pñnte" doesn't come close to being valid.
14:49:08 <ais523> dipperswett: I think it just uses statistics about the language, and then tries to produce words that are statistically the same
14:49:23 <ais523> to do with letter frequency and letter pair frequency, possibly even triplets
14:49:28 <ais523> then it puts "coin" on the end
14:49:56 <dipperswett> I can't imagine "pñ" is a common digraph in Spanish at all.
14:50:16 <dipperswett> I would expect that "ñn" occurs in no words whatsoever.
14:50:16 <ais523> presumably it's has a nonzero occurrence rate, though
14:50:26 <ais523> imagine if the letters are in two separate syllables
14:50:48 <ais523> and it's not like "ñn" is unpronounceable
14:51:02 <dipperswett> ñ almost always occurs between two vowels, I think.
14:52:24 <dipperswett> http://www.listapalabras.com/en/palabras-con.php lists no words containing pñ or ñn.
14:53:50 <zzo38> I have just finished a game of Minesweeper but I almost won, but not quite because at the end only two more cells remained and I picked the wrong one by mistake. But I am slow at it and it took 1378 seconds (this implementation imposes a time limit of 10000 seconds). Using the scoring system I made up I scored 572 points (out of 575).
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14:57:34 <zzo38> Screenshot is at http://zzo38computer.org/img_18/mines.png
15:01:23 <zzo38> Quoting on Windows cmd.exe is more strange than in UNIX and can cause problems, as noted above, yes. But I think if you have a percentage sign you can use %% to do isn't it? I thought it it is how it is work anyways
15:01:48 <fizzie> I don't like the variants of Minesweeper that sometimes require you to guess.
15:02:23 <fizzie> izabera: Not the one in Sergeant T. Atham's puzzle collection.
15:02:43 <fizzie> izabera: It can, if you untick a flag, but by default it only makes puzzles that are deducable from the initial click.
15:03:20 <fizzie> It also allows undo, so...
15:03:33 <fizzie> (Although it does keep track of a death count that isn't decreased by undo.)
15:03:50 <zzo38> The standard ones do anyways, but I have read about "Lucksweeper" in which any guess which you can not possibly have any idea it is wrong, if you step on such a cell, it will move a bomb if that cell contains a bomb so that it won't be explosive.
15:04:11 <fizzie> Personally, I don't consider the "avoid guesses" part to be cheating. It's pure luck.
15:05:14 <zzo38> fizzie: If it does not reveal all of the bombs when you lose then that could be a kind of variant (but you don't need to implement undo, just mark the bomb there and increment the death counter, and then you can continue)
15:06:13 <fizzie> It does not reveal the mines on death.
15:07:06 <fizzie> And I guess it could "auto-undo" on death like that. I think it probably has undo/redo because that's a standard piece of user interface for the puzzles in the collection.
15:07:57 <fizzie> I wonder if there are any versions where you can die on the first square you open. That seems to be something that's pretty universally avoided.
15:08:32 <coppro> minesweeper usually requires guesses
15:08:48 <coppro> even if you don't count the initial move
15:09:02 <zzo38> fizzie: My own version you can die on the first square you open, because I have not made it to avoid that (although I could have done, but find it unnecessary)
15:09:08 <fizzie> In the sgtatham sweeper, you may still end up with mines that can't be deduced directly from the labels of the squares, if you can deduce it from the number of remaining mines.
15:09:35 <zzo38> I know that can be possible too
15:12:35 <zzo38> There is also the paper variant (also called "star map", although in the book I first saw it in it is called "minesweeper")
15:17:12 <zzo38> I have also seen a variant where it is possible for a cell to contain more than one bomb
15:18:26 <b_jonas> coppro: sure, the second move often has to be a guess
15:19:57 <b_jonas> In the simple minesweeper version I made for the very powerless Sharp EL-5120 calculator, you can die in first turn.
15:20:29 <b_jonas> There's also no map shown, you just type coordinates and draw the map on paper; and the neigbours of revealed zero cells aren't automatically revealed, you have to do it by hadn.
15:21:31 <b_jonas> It's also easy to cheat, because the high-level programming language of that calculator makes it impossible to read input without allowing the user to reveal the value of any variable easily with three to five keystrokes.
15:22:25 <b_jonas> (When prompted to input, press 2ndF, RCL, then the letter of the variable, and the value is shown.
15:23:02 <b_jonas> I guess technically that reveals only the first ten digits out of the twelve, so in theory the program could hide some information in the two guard digits,
15:23:05 <ais523> what size was the grid?
15:23:10 <zzo38> So it clearly is not as powerful as Texas Instruments programmable calculators, where there are other ways to request input as well
15:23:36 <b_jonas> but that would be very impractical due to the stupid inconsistent and slow arithmetic, too few variables, limited memory, etc.
15:24:46 <b_jonas> ais523: um, iirc 8x8 or 8x16 or something. I'm not sure. I think it would be possible to do 16x16 but then I'd never finish a game with that interface.
15:25:00 <b_jonas> I mean, possible to do 16x16 with some changes to the program.
15:26:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I also made a maze game, with a 8x8 (iirc) square grid, toroidal I think, with horizontal and vertical walls between the squares.
15:27:27 <b_jonas> The interface is such that the program prints the walls or non-walls immediately surrounding you, then inputs a direction to move out of the four, in a loop, and it detects win if you reach the goal cell.
15:27:43 <b_jonas> No wait, not toroidal, only cylindrical, because that's the easiest to implement.
15:28:23 <Hoolootwo> what kind of programming does it have?
15:28:42 <Hoolootwo> I haven't really worked with Sharps much
15:28:55 <zzo38> In TI-92 there are many ways to request input, including: * Arguments to the program * Prompt for an expression on the I/O screen, store the result into a variable * Ask the user to select a point on the graph screen * Display a popup menu * Display a menu bar * Display a dialog box * Inside of a busy loop you can check which buttons are pushed (although there are no timing functions)
15:29:44 <Hoolootwo> yeah, TI has generally pretty good input routines
15:29:48 <b_jonas> Hoolootwo: a high-level language with powerful natural arithmetic syntax, but not much in regards to statements. you have 27 numerical variables you can use (plus a couple of extra with limitations), no array indexing.
15:29:56 <Hoolootwo> and you can make your own with getkey and such
15:30:23 <b_jonas> Hoolootwo: the numbers are 12 decimal digits with exponent between -99 to 99, the arithmetic on them is quirky and slow.
15:30:55 <Hoolootwo> that sounds really hard to actually use for anything useful
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15:31:22 <b_jonas> There's a 3 line text display, you can print only constant strings with newline after them with the character set, or the value of a variable with the name of the variable in the previous line, and both of these are very slow.
15:32:05 <b_jonas> Control flow is goto, if-arithmetic-comparison-goto, gosub, return, and restart program, but there's a strict limit of 20 labels per program.
15:32:33 <Hoolootwo> at least it's better than being keystroke-programmable
15:32:54 <b_jonas> Assignments and control flow and such things are very fast, compared to even simple arithmetic, probably because it has a slow cpu (6502-based or z80-based or something) that doesn't do proper arithemtic.
15:33:46 <b_jonas> The whole calculator has exactly 2k RAM, of which about 1K is for fixed purposes, very tightly all used up, and about 1K (I don't recall the exact number now) stores arbitrary programs.
15:34:27 <Hoolootwo> well many of the TI-8x series are also z80, so that's not really a good excuse
15:34:33 <b_jonas> In programs, all keywords and builtin functions and stuff are stored as a single byte (but displayed often as up to six character cells on screen), and each line has an overhead of exactly three bytes, with no other overhead.
15:34:41 <Hoolootwo> but yeah, that's not a whole lot of mem
15:35:23 <Hoolootwo> I guess the speed of the language has to do with how it's designed too I suppose.
15:35:58 <b_jonas> As a result, the best way to store an array is a loop of a cyclical shift of variables, that is, you write a body like A=B;B=C;C=D;D=E;E=F;F=G;G=H;H=I;I=A (with each assignment in a new line), track the shift index, and repeat it enough time to get the index you want.
15:36:20 <b_jonas> Most of my more complicated programs has a shift register of eight variables like that.
15:36:55 <b_jonas> Yes, it's good because it doesn't cost too many labels or too much program space, and executes relatively fast.
15:37:36 <b_jonas> You can also use numbers as arrays of digits or bits, which is how I store rows in minesweeper or the maze,
15:38:15 <b_jonas> but you have to be careful because the arithmetic is strange so it's easy to get incorrect results. In particular, if you subtract two numbers such that the first ten digits are equal, the result is zero, the last two digits are discarded.
15:38:19 <Hoolootwo> yep, that's a pretty common trick on the TIs to get more out of each variable
15:39:05 <b_jonas> There's some details you have to learn about how to write the programs shorter, because every character can matter.
15:40:23 <b_jonas> You have to abuse precedence, especially because there's a somewhat rich set of arithmetic operations so you can write many things in multiple syntaxes; you can omit parenthesis at the beginning and end of expressions; omit 0 on the rhs of the assignment, or on any side of an equals comparison, but not in a less-than comparison for some reason.
15:40:39 <b_jonas> But you know what the most wonderful part of this calculator is?
15:40:53 <zzo38> On TI-92 though you can have variable names as long as eight letters and you can have lists and matrices and strings
15:41:28 <b_jonas> That its implementation seems very solid, with almost no bugs. I've experimented a lot with it, and have never managed to crash it or corrupt it or otherwise make it behave strangely,
15:41:43 <b_jonas> except when the battery is low so it doesn't have enough power to think.
15:42:38 <b_jonas> During all the years, I've found only about two insignificant bugs in it, two of them about some input being accepted and doing something useless when it should be rejected.
15:43:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, the Sharp EL-5120 is from the early days when programmable calculators were rarer and primitive. I went to a VERY geeky high school class, and mine was only the third programmable calculator in it.
15:43:47 <b_jonas> (The other two before it were higher-end models knowing more.)
15:44:23 <b_jonas> I know that programmable calculators a few days after that are much more powerful, with hundreds of kilobytes of memory and the abilty to upload programs written in machine code and stuff.
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15:44:50 <b_jonas> But at that time, we had to do those things on the personal computers, rather than programmable calculators or mobile phones.
15:46:51 <b_jonas> Yes, the TI-92 has 64 kilobytes of memory, a graphical display, and powerful built-in programming language. In those it's like the popular calculators of its age, except that it has a qwerty keyboard. I've seen one live for a while.
15:48:07 <zzo38> The programm language is TI-92 is slow though, but there are things that can be done to make it faster (what I have done to speed up shuffling a deck of cards more resembles the "ORDER BY RANDOM" of SQL; due to the way the parsing works this turns out to be faster than the other way.
15:48:21 <b_jonas> But I've met the similar non-qwerty TIs more. I've also seen HPs and Casios, but none of them have I delved so deeply as into that Sharp I own.
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16:31:01 <fizzie> TI-86 has 128K of memory, which is pretty huge.
16:31:06 <fizzie> 64K of address space, though.
16:32:56 <fizzie> It has an "MMU", if you can call it that -- 0000..3fff and c000..ffff are fixed (RAM and ROM pages, respectively), but you can map individual RAM/ROM banks into the 4000..7fff and 8000..bfff blocks.
16:34:46 <fizzie> The "TI-Basic" language it supports is the same (or at least very similar) as in the '92, AIUI.
16:35:35 <fizzie> And real slow, partly because all variables are 10-byte BCD floats it deals with in software.
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16:37:47 <fizzie> I believe it would do an increment-by-one loop using the generic softfloat addition, that has to muck around with exponents and all that.
16:39:02 <fizzie> (Good way to waste all those 6 MHz of raw power.)
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16:56:57 <ais523> `welcome LewisMCYoutube
16:56:59 <HackEgo> LewisMCYoutube: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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17:01:03 <ashl> LewisMCYoutube, we hardly knew ye
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17:26:07 <dipperswett> Determining whether or not a given Minesweeper grid is consistent sounds like the sort of thing that would be NP-complete.
17:28:16 <ais523> dipperswett: it is, that's already been proven
17:49:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43931&oldid=43513 * 216.138.225.130 * (+78)
18:01:11 <Taneb> What does consistent mean in this context?
18:01:29 <ais523> Taneb: that there's some way to place mines on it such that all the observed numbers are accurate
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18:32:18 <hppavilion[1]> We have Functional languages based on Lambda Calculus, but not geometry
18:42:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43932 * Martin Büttner * (+9984) Created page with "'''Labyrinth''' is a two-dimensional programming language developed by [[User:MartinBüttner|Martin Büttner]]. The source code resembles a maze which is traversed by the inst..."
18:43:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43933&oldid=43909 * Martin Büttner * (+16) /* L */
18:44:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43934&oldid=43932 * Hppavilion1 * (-16) Brought username inline with the standards of this wiki
18:44:32 <myname> labyrinth sounds promising
18:46:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43935&oldid=43926 * Martin Büttner * (+126)
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18:50:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43936&oldid=43934 * Martin Büttner * (+1) fix user name
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18:53:08 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a good name for a geometry-based declarative Esolang?
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18:54:41 <hppavilion[1]> But not Boolean Arithmetic, Boolean Geometry, or Boolean Calculus
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19:02:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Martin Büttner]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43937 * Martin Büttner * (+549) Created page with "I have so far created two esolangs: * [[Retina]], designed in 2015, a regex-based language, designed for use in code-[[Golf|golfing]]. * [[Labyrinth]], designed in 2015, a tw..."
19:03:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43938&oldid=43936 * Martin Büttner * (+12)
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19:05:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Retina]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43939&oldid=43797 * Martin Büttner * (-33)
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19:08:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43940&oldid=43938 * Martin Büttner * (+120) add link to related language Mice in a maze
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19:19:05 <Typical_Username> so i saw discussion about "what is the simpliest progamming language"
19:19:39 <ais523> "simplest" is hard to define
19:19:55 <myname> we have languages with only one command
19:19:59 <ais523> but some reasonable candidates include Iota, Bitwise Cyclic Tag, and the various 1L languages, depending on what your definition is
19:20:13 <ais523> although I might be biased on that one
19:20:28 <ais523> BF is definitely not the simplest
19:20:36 <ais523> because there are cut-down versions of it that are simpler and still TC
19:20:46 <ais523> coppro: ooh, fractran is another reasonable claim, I think
19:21:08 <ais523> Typical_Username: oh, yes, if you don't care about TC or usable, there's a language that does nothing, more than one I think
19:21:12 <ais523> Unnecessary is probably my favourite
19:21:26 <ais523> you could also use 2014 for the purpose nowadays
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20:29:17 <izabera> is there any font in which the dot in ; is lower than - ?
20:30:36 <fizzie> That's like asking if there are any faces where the nose is higher than the eyes.
20:31:01 <izabera> it's exactly what i'm asking
20:31:26 <izabera> the actual question was: does this face ;-; render correctly in all fonts?
20:32:30 <zzo38> What is the proper way to render? In this "fixed" font, the top dot of the semicolon is higher than the line making up the minus sign
20:34:34 <ashl> it's a shame esolangs.org's featured language thingy isn't more active
20:35:06 <zzo38> I suggest to get rid of that feature
20:35:26 <zzo38> (But keep the page for historical study, with a note)
20:36:35 <ashl> it's hard to distinguish interesting languages from non-interesting languages :P
20:37:04 <zzo38> Yes, and there are other problems too (including opinions, and other decisions about it)
20:38:14 <ashl> maybe _someone_ thinks fuckfuck or maxsteele2's languages are interesting
20:45:28 <mauris_> what ais523 said made me think:
20:46:13 <mauris_> you could make an esolang where every program must satisfy some constraint of which the satisfiability is a (very difficult) open problem
20:46:39 <mauris_> but, for extra irony, say, functions as a NOP
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20:57:05 <ashl> oren keeps talking about a font they're making
21:02:45 <izabera> did you try imveryevil.org ?
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21:06:39 <izabera> not even sure why i google these things
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21:12:13 <ashl> izabera: what did you google?
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21:20:32 <zzo38> I made up a new Dungeons&Dragons character for a campaign which is including some other players too, so that we can play that one when they are here and the other one when they aren't; however these two scenarios are in the same timeline/storyline so they can interfere with each other (perhaps some of the things that happen, bad people organization, etc are having to do with each other so it adds more to examine), although currently my two character
21:21:08 <zzo38> This new one is starting at character level 3, and we are starting with money and equipment unlike the other where we started with absolutely no possessions at all.
21:22:17 <shachaf> Do you know how to pronounce this character's name?
21:23:36 <zzo38> Yes it is much easier. (Actually I can kind of pronounce my other character's name too)
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21:25:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it only the character made, or has he already had some roleplayed adventures as a PC?
21:26:49 <zzo38> Only the character is made up (including equipment, skills, etc)
21:27:01 <zzo38> The game is not in play quite yet.
21:27:50 <zzo38> (If the other players do not create their characters in time, I will be playing the other game until they do and when they are available.)
21:28:31 <b_jonas> "Do you know how to pronounce this character's name?" => http://stickman.qntm.org/comics.php?n=178
21:28:34 <zzo38> b_jonas: He is a anthropomorphic-bat generic-caster
21:29:22 <zzo38> I think that one isn't about the character's name? They want to learn "I give up"
21:30:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is a class with more customization but less class features (and a few less spells per day) then normal casters, from the book of generic classes
21:30:16 <b_jonas> but I imagine a quingi could also have a name in their native language that you can't pronounce without a second tongue
21:31:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes that might be possible I guess
21:31:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: what kind of "customization"? customizing what skills or spells the character learns, or customizing later, such as when preparing or casting spells or psionic abilities/
21:32:21 <b_jonas> oh, you mean like it's customizable during character creation and leveling how his spellcasting works in first place,
21:33:09 <b_jonas> like some of how much prepared it is, which stat they uses for what checks, what types of spells they can learn and cast, etc?
21:34:07 <zzo38> More customization in skills and feats to be selected (as well as spells learnable), but don't have features such as familiar, turn undead, or other stuff like that, and have less spells per day than a sorcerer
21:35:10 <b_jonas> And where are they on the scale between wizard-like prepared casters versus sorcerer-like improvized casters, and is that fixed by this role?
21:35:37 <zzo38> This class requires spontaneous casting.
21:35:51 <izabera> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symlink_race
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21:39:56 <oerjan> <b_jonas> oren: um, how do you know? just because there's no comment doesn't mean anything. <-- because of the "Languages with an indefinite article but no definite article are common in an area in Asia stretching from Turkey to India."
21:40:49 <oerjan> assuming that was written by someone who actually knows. i guess it's possible they just deduced it from wrong data.
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21:43:56 <shachaf> oerjan: ok i guess i'll have to repeat my joke in here too
21:43:58 <zzo38> A generic-caster is proficient with one simple weapon of your choice; in my case a morningstar (although I would normally not fight with such things unless I would need to attack, but it may help sometimes). A generic-caster is not proficient with any armor or shield (but can become proficient by feats or multiclassing)
21:44:02 <shachaf> <shachaf> arkeet: What's green and has all colimits?
21:44:59 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know?
21:45:30 * oerjan gives shachaf a small complimentary swat -----###
21:45:30 <shachaf> <shachaf> What's green, has all limits, and isn't vegetarian?
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21:46:47 <oerjan> hm semilattices don't necessarily have all colimits tdnh
21:47:07 * oerjan gives shachaf a slightly harder swat -----###
21:47:08 <shachaf> i got the same pedantry in the other channel
21:47:43 <oerjan> also, i got confused because i remembered that either left or right adjoints have all limits resp. colimits, and i can never remember which is which
21:48:04 <shachaf> There was confusion about that in ##typetheory yesterday.
21:48:13 <oerjan> wait, that's preserve, not have
21:48:27 <shachaf> "Right adjoints preserve limits. Coproducts are limits." "Left adjoints preserve colimits. Products are colimits."
21:48:58 <oerjan> i can never remember which is which for products either
21:49:03 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a programming language "based on Geometry, some algebra, a bit of formal logic and boolean algebra, and just a /hint/ of set theory"
21:49:19 <shachaf> oerjan: half the sentences i quoted above are wrong hth
21:49:24 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Do you have some other details too? With that it can help also
21:49:37 <zzo38> I do not know the answer of your questions though, sorry
21:49:38 <oerjan> the only thing i remember is the free functors are left adjoints. mnemonic: liberty
21:49:53 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'm using Google Docs, so you probably won't want to
21:50:05 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't follow the mnemonic
21:50:37 <oerjan> shachaf: liberty = freedom, and has the same first letter as "left" hth
21:50:47 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm pretty sure universal properties were invented when someone left adjoint where a mathematician could find it
21:51:08 <oerjan> sorry, your complimentary swat quota is used up hth hht
21:56:09 <zzo38> The generic class also allows you to customize which base save is the high one
21:56:18 <oerjan> <mauris> i've investigated the turkish claim slightly and according to wikipedia and some shady web tutorials it seems to check out! "works for me" <-- i've looked at wikipedia slightly and i'm not convinced
21:57:02 * oerjan doesn't trust pings to work with nick variations
21:59:29 <oerjan> b_jonas: ooh, persian (partly) confirmed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_grammar#The_Definite_and_Indefinite_Articles
22:01:37 -!- FireFly has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
22:01:57 <oerjan> hm there's a better article on turkish too
22:02:09 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
22:02:56 <oerjan> ok looks confirmed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_grammar#Indefinite_adjectives
22:06:15 <oerjan> cantonese looks more dubious
22:06:58 <oerjan> thai refuted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thai_grammar#Articles
22:07:27 <oerjan> those were the main ones i recall
22:07:39 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris.
22:11:03 <oerjan> Taneb: there's /r/roguelike hth
22:11:18 <oerjan> i keep seeing ais523 posting there
22:14:24 -!- augur has joined.
22:16:15 <mauris> apparently cantonese uses 一 ("one") in a way that looks like an indefinite article
22:16:57 <mauris> and i mean "an/en/een/un/une/ein" also mean "one" if you look a couple thousand years back so
22:17:46 <mauris> (what about finnish twh?)
22:18:18 <oerjan> you may spell them slightly different as numerals, but they're really the same word. en/ei/et vs. én/ei/ett
22:18:49 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure finnish is generally not considered to have articles
22:19:20 <shachaf> oerjan: in that case what do they put in their newspapers
22:20:04 -!- FireFly has joined.
22:22:32 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
22:22:50 <shachaf> I thought your swatter was out of charges.
22:23:06 <oerjan> no, _you're_ out of quota hth
22:23:24 <b_jonas> shachaf: they put advertisments, plus a crossword, comic strip, and photo of skimpily dressed female.
22:26:13 <oerjan> i'm skeptical on the last point, but i don't read finnish newspapers
22:26:56 <oerjan> in norway, a normal newspaper doing that for its own sake would be unheard of
22:27:40 <oerjan> (now if it was an advertisement, they could away with a lot.)
22:29:35 <oerjan> i suppose you could also get away with it in a crossword, if the solution was vacation themed
22:30:07 <oerjan> so basically, norwegian newspaper can have all kind of skimpily dressed females, as long as they have another excuse for it.
22:30:20 * oerjan needs a grammar refill
22:30:47 <HackEgo> bison: missing operand after `bison' \ Try `bison --help' for more information.
22:33:16 <oerjan> skimpily dressed comic female hth http://www.dagbladet.no/tegneserie/pondus/?1440540000&d=-1
22:35:17 <FireFly> oerjan: what'd I do this time
22:35:46 <oerjan> FireFly: you joined the channel right after a swatting session hth
22:40:18 -!- tortu has joined.
22:41:29 <HackEgo> tortu: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
22:42:17 -!- tortu has left.
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23:03:33 <oren> I have no idea who to vote for
23:04:08 <oren> the upcoming election
23:05:34 <oren> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_federal_election,_2015
23:06:29 <oren> harper didn't do anything wrong like I feared he would, so I can't rule him out anymore
23:08:36 <oren> I guess I can rule out liz may
23:12:29 <oren> but other than that... gaaah I can't decide
23:18:29 <oren> hey boily, you know .ca politics, who should I vote for?
23:20:19 <oren> ronald reagan 2016
23:20:59 <oren> wait ronald reagan isn't dead?!?!?!
23:21:03 <fizzie> Today's joke courtesy of seeing it on #xmonad:
23:21:04 <fizzie> @where real world haskell
23:21:04 <lambdabot> http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ <-- the comprehensive xmonad configuration syntax reference
23:21:08 <fizzie> It's funny because it's true.
23:21:55 <lambdabot> http://book.realworldhaskell.org/read/ <-- the comprehensive xmonad configuration syntax reference
23:22:18 <fizzie> It's the window manager I use, I just lurk there for useful tips and tricks.
23:22:46 <fizzie> Also re elections, I'm now registered to vote in the UK. Mainly because they threatened me with a fine (in fact, two fines) if I opted not to.
23:23:29 <fizzie> First to list eligible-for-registration people in the household (with a big fine for not doing that), and then to actually register (with a smaller fine for not doing that).
23:23:41 <fizzie> I'm not sure if they also have an even smaller fine for not voting.
23:24:42 <fizzie> I guess they didn't actually directly threaten, they just implied.
23:25:04 <fizzie> "Every household must respond to this request for information [about eligible voters]. Those who don't respond to the form could be liable to a £1000 fine."
23:25:23 <oren> that's a buncha bullshit
23:25:55 <fizzie> "By law, everyone must complete a voter registration form each year, even if they don’t intend to vote. Failure to do so could lead to a fine."
23:26:12 <fizzie> I seem to recall they mentioned some smaller number for the second fine, but I can't find it right now.
23:26:32 <shachaf> I'm registered to vote in California but it's a hassle to do it.
23:26:32 <fizzie> It's always "could lead". I think they've learned that from organized crime protection rackets.
23:26:46 <shachaf> No fines for not doing it, either.
23:27:34 <oren> in canada you can decline your ballot
23:27:43 <oren> maybe I should do that
23:28:20 <fizzie> In Finland there's no registration, but that's only because the Population Register Centre keeps track of you anyhow.
23:28:37 <fizzie> You need to tell them if you move, etc.
23:29:35 <shachaf> mauris: what's a fun haskell thing
23:31:07 <mauris> ok "thing" is a hard thing to define. but like "thing to make with haskell" or "feature of haskell" or help
23:31:44 <shachaf> how about an enlightening exercise or abstraction or something
23:32:14 <fizzie> Also there's this here in UK: unless you explicitly opt out, your voter registration details go on the "open register", which is "available to anyone who wants to buy a copy" (https://www.gov.uk/electoral-register/opt-out-of-the-open-register) and which (AIUI) is used for marketing.
23:33:03 <mauris> hmmm i found messing around with cata and ana and Fix, recently, very enlightening
23:33:14 <fizzie> And you need to opt out every time. This I think they learned from the Adobe Flash updater.
23:33:24 <mauris> and i want to play more with polymorphic recursion! i just can't think of any uses for it ;-;
23:33:40 <shachaf> mauris: Have you done the exercise with Mu/Nu/Fix?
23:34:46 <mauris> https://github.com/aristidb/playground/blob/master/MuNu.hs oh, this thing?
23:35:08 <shachaf> You can ignore Fix, sort of.
23:35:13 <shachaf> Mu and Nu are the interesting ones.
23:35:46 <shachaf> What are the inhabitants of Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe?
23:35:50 <mauris> i haven't, but that looks cool and i might give it a shot right now
23:36:41 <shachaf> Avoid recursion wherever possible.
23:39:09 <mauris> Mu ($Nothing), for the former...
23:40:55 <mauris> looking at Nu, that looks a bit trickier -- it has to work forall a., but i need to supply an a?
23:41:46 <shachaf> newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }; data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
23:41:59 <shachaf> You get to choose x. The consumer gets to choose r.
23:42:11 <shachaf> But you're not done with Mu,
23:44:42 <mauris> hmm. i'll think out loud: basically i have to come up with a function (Maybe r -> r) -> r that is polymorphic over r, right?
23:45:48 <mauris> (\f -> f Nothing), (\f -> f $ Just $ f Nothing), (\f -> f $ Just $ f $ Just $ f Nothing), etc.
23:46:00 <mauris> (wrap all of those in Mu)
23:46:30 <shachaf> (\f -> f Nothing), (\f -> f (Just (f Nothing))), (\f -> f (Just (f (Just (f Nothing))))), etc.
23:46:32 <hppavilion[1]> I've spent the last hour or so doing something strange
23:46:40 <shachaf> So what can you say about Mu Maybe?
23:46:54 <mauris> (oh, i meant that as in: i had to give inhabitants of Mu Maybe, not the type it's a wrapper around)
23:48:28 <mauris> hmm. it reminds me of Fix Maybe in a way that's a bit hard to pin down
23:49:03 <shachaf> What are the inhabitants of Fix Maybe?
23:49:07 <shachaf> Or you can do Nu Maybe next.
23:49:42 <mauris> quick question: i suppose (\f -> f (Just (f (Just (f (Just ...)))))) = (\f -> fix (f.Just)) is also an inhabitant, right?
23:49:56 <hppavilion[1]> Specifically purposed toward /dirty/ sentences as I thought it'd be funny
23:50:09 <hppavilion[1]> It currently does primitive perversity in exactly 100 lines of code
23:50:28 <shachaf> mauris: No, you're not allowed recursion in Mu.
23:51:05 <mauris> the inhabitants of Fix Maybe are Fix Nothing, Fix (Just (Fix Nothing)), etc.
23:51:36 <mauris> so hey, Fix is our (f r -> r)!
23:52:36 <shachaf> This is a relationship that Fix and Mu have, yes.
23:53:14 <shachaf> @let newtype Mu f = Mu { runMu :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
23:53:16 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.Mu’, defined at .L.hs:152:1
23:53:55 <mauris> maybe i should look at Nu Maybe, now, and get back to making a conclusion afterwards
23:53:57 <shachaf> @let newtype Mew f = Mew { runMew :: forall r. (f r -> r) -> r }
23:54:07 <shachaf> @let newtype Fix f = Fix { runFix :: f (Fix f) }
23:54:17 <shachaf> @let data Nu f = forall x. Nu x (x -> f x)
23:54:45 <shachaf> mauris: Well, can you describe the inhabitants of Mu Maybe?
23:56:57 <mauris> hmmm... well, they all apply (f . Just) some number of times to (f Nothing). they sort of look like folds over a bunch of `Just`s?
23:58:19 <mauris> :t Nu "hi shachaf" Just
00:00:01 <mauris> :t Nu "hi shachaf" (Just . (++"!"))
00:01:19 <shachaf> Imagine I give you x :: Nu Maybe
00:01:52 <mauris> should we take this to ##somewhereelse
00:02:05 <coppro> no, it's incredibly ontopic
00:02:59 <mauris> okay! your x is (Nu a f), where f :: a -> Maybe a
00:04:06 <shachaf> mauris :: Nu Maybe -> String is the same as mauris :: forall x. x -> (x -> Maybe x) -> String
00:04:16 <shachaf> This is how you turn exists into forall
00:04:26 <coppro> maybe if I hear shachaf explain this enough times I'll understand it
00:04:43 <shachaf> I'm not explaining it, I'm letting mauris figure it out.
00:04:48 <shachaf> When have you heard me explain this?
00:05:07 <coppro> you did it in #haskell the other day, didn't you?
00:05:45 <mauris> so, re: "What can you do with it?": first of all, trivially, i could take out the a
00:06:11 <shachaf> coppro: Only for a few minutes.
00:06:24 <shachaf> Existential types are so good.
00:06:45 <mauris> or i could run it through f once, and get a `Maybe a`...
00:07:19 <mauris> and then i can fmap f on that to get a `Maybe (Maybe a)`, etc.
00:08:18 <shachaf> You can do all of those things.
00:08:27 <shachaf> But a :: x isn't very useful to you.
00:08:34 <shachaf> You can't do anything with it.
00:09:32 <mauris> yeah, that's the thing
00:11:18 <mauris> i mean, i can write a Nu Maybe -> String that just returns a constant string, but that sounds very boring. so the question is: what meaningful info can i extract from my `a :: x` and `f :: x -> Maybe x` without assuming anything about the type `x`, right?
00:12:54 <mauris> i could >>= my `Just a` through `f` repeatedly, and count how many iterations it takes to get a Nothing
00:16:48 <mauris> (this feels a little like an unfold to me, the way Mu feels like a fold, which i was expecting! but it's a bit frustrating that i can't pin down the exact correspondence)
00:17:04 <shachaf> Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe are both types of natural numbers.
00:17:20 <shachaf> What's the difference between them?
00:17:30 <mauris> i suppose if a = (), then [a] is Nat!
00:17:49 <shachaf> You were just talking about ana and cata, right?
00:17:58 <shachaf> Which in polite company we call unfold and fold.
00:18:07 <shachaf> fold :: Fix f -> (f r -> r) -> r
00:18:18 <shachaf> unfoldr :: x -> (x -> f x) -> Fix f
00:20:05 <mauris> "<shachaf> What's the difference between them?" <-- well, arrows got flipped, so i suppose they are (waves hands) dual
00:20:32 <shachaf> What's the difference between these types? Do they have the same inhabitants?
00:22:06 <mauris> i would guess: up to isomorphism, they do?
00:22:55 <mauris> what with Mu Maybe and Nu Maybe both being the naturals, and those signatures of fold and unfold looking like they compose into each other nicely to at least get from Nu to Mu
00:23:52 <shachaf> You could write zeroMu, succMu, muToInt, and zeroNu, succNu, nuToInt
00:24:05 <mauris> i guess omegaNu exists, but omegaMu doesn't
00:24:09 <shachaf> (You're allowed to use recursion in nuToInt.)
00:24:40 <shachaf> Nu Maybe is the type of conatural numbers (i.e. natural numbers with infinity), defined without any recursion.
00:25:05 <mauris> omegaNu being where `f :: x -> Maybe x` is simply `Just`, and you *never* get a `Nothing` out of it
00:25:41 <shachaf> You can think of Nu Maybe as a simple state machine thing.
00:25:58 <shachaf> It has an internal state, and you can press a button, which might give you a new state.
00:26:05 <mauris> either it "halts" after some amount of steps, or it goes on forever?
00:26:28 <shachaf> It represents the natural number "how many times does it run before it halts".
00:26:43 <shachaf> The state is opaque, which is why all those values you named are equal.
00:28:23 <mauris> maybe this doesn't make a lot of sense at all, but my intuition is saying something like...
00:29:57 <mauris> Mu is a bit like fold, and you fold from some finite number "down" to zero in a number of steps. but Nu is the opposite and can unfold "up" into infinity
00:30:31 <shachaf> Now write muToNu and nuToMu
00:30:46 <shachaf> You can also write muToFix, fixToNu, nuToFix, fixToMu.
00:30:48 <mauris> this is really hard for me to put into words (the darn things are so concrete :<)
00:32:18 <mauris> do i need the fact that `f` is a Functor, for these?
00:32:44 <mauris> like, do i write `mu2nu :: Functor f => Mu f -> Nu f` or just `mu2nu :: Mu f -> Nu f`
00:34:20 <shachaf> Oh, you can also write inMu :: f (Mu f) -> Mu f, outMu :: Mu f -> f (Mu f), inNu :: f (Nu f) -> Nu f, outNu :: Nu f -> f (Nu f)
00:34:33 <shachaf> For all of these things, some directions are easy, and some are hard.
00:34:59 <shachaf> I can give you a hint for which you should expect to be easy.
00:35:05 <mauris> alrighty. i'm going to fidget with this locally, unless you really want to see me mess around with ghci and follow my train of thought, in which case i could try lambdabot?
00:35:19 <shachaf> imo do whatever you want hth
00:35:46 <mauris> mostly flooding #esoteric with ghc errors sounds scary ;.;
00:37:06 <shachaf> Or maybe try https://coderpad.io/Y4W93H37
00:42:58 -!- mihow has quit (Quit: mihow).
00:53:32 <zzo38> I thought of some a bit unusual idea related to Dungeons&Dragons game, such as, a "Break Numerical Barrier" spell that can change one instance of an effect that normally has a minimum of one or zero to instead have no minimum.
00:55:24 <zzo38> Other ideas are such thing as magic items that have one effect in the daylight and another effect in the darkness, such as a magic weapon with +2 hit and -1 damage in daylight but +2 damage and -1 hit in darkness.
01:06:36 -!- boily has joined.
01:12:03 <dipperswett> 19:41:19: <int-e> (I have no large weird alternate constructors of the comment)
01:13:14 <oerjan> and let us all be thankful for that
01:13:25 <lambdabot> fizzie said 13h 51m 6s ago: päältä 'from on top' (ablative case of päällä 'on top of something', or 'on' as in "the radio is on")
01:13:25 <lambdabot> fizzie said 13h 51m 2s ago: säänne 'your (pl.) weather' (second-person plural possessive of sää 'weather')
01:13:25 <lambdabot> fizzie said 13h 50m 55s ago: silleen -- a colloquialism that's rather hard to translate without resorting to just listing a bunch of example uses.
01:13:25 <lambdabot> fizzie said 13h 50m 47s ago: varpaastasi 'from your toe' (elative case of the second-person singular possessive of varvas 'toe')
01:14:37 <boily> aaaaurgh... Finnish has too many cases.
01:14:58 <boily> from your toe. come on, that should never be a single word! at least in polite company!
01:15:03 <oerjan> in case of finnish break glass
01:15:04 <oren> I'm going to upload a bunch of pictures of some of the maps from my atlas, this time is high-res
01:15:09 <dipperswett> Or is your name pronounced like /bwaly/ or something instead of /boili/.
01:15:46 <oerjan> boily: clearly it must be stallman's favorite finnish word hth
01:15:47 <boily> dipperswett: more like /bwali/. you can realize the /a/ as [æ] if you prefer.
01:16:15 <boily> oerjan: indeed. stallman's toes are very hambiguitous hth
01:16:51 <dipperswett> The neural net's behavior in Insane Mode is pretty interesting.
01:16:59 <oren> damn, not high res enough
01:18:55 <dipperswett> `learn clbin is a "command line pastebin" web application: https://clbin.com
01:18:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'clbin': clbin is a "command line pastebin" web application: https://clbin.com
01:19:08 <dipperswett> The only useful learndb entry ever created.
01:19:34 <oerjan> well there have been previous attempts that were squashed
01:19:44 <oerjan> some may even have survived
01:20:05 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
01:20:10 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:20:26 <dipperswett> Does that somehow invoke myndzi on purpose?
01:20:58 <HackEgo> [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+0
01:21:01 <boily> myndzi is part bot, part cyborg. they are a very strange entity.
01:21:16 <boily> fungot: have you tried communicating with myndzi?
01:21:17 <fungot> boily: was there a train somewhere in the file.
01:21:42 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:21:44 <HackEgo> [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
01:21:54 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:22:01 <HackEgo> [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
01:22:09 <HackEgo> [U+00AF MACRON] [U+005C REVERSE SOLIDUS] [U+0028 LEFT PARENTHESIS] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+006F LATIN SMALL LETTER O] [U+0029 RIGHT PARENTHESIS] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+00AF MACRON]
01:23:15 <boily> this chännel went full bönkers mode...
01:23:20 <boily> oh the fungotity...
01:23:21 <fungot> boily: you rule!" joke that was posted on reddit has him going into detail on that
01:23:40 <dipperswett> ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯ ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:24:00 <oerjan> there's a line length limit
01:24:17 <dipperswett> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:24:17 <myndzi> º¯`\o o/`¯º º¯`\o º¯`\o º¯`\o
01:24:42 <dipperswett> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:25:07 <mauris> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:25:09 <mauris> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:25:10 <mauris> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:25:10 <boily> bonk bonk bonk bonk bonk ♪
01:25:38 <dipperswett> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ but ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and
01:26:09 <mauris> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/
01:26:10 <myndzi> o/`¯º o/`¯º o/`¯º o/`¯º º¯`\o
01:26:27 <mauris> ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯ and ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:26:27 <myndzi> º¯`\o o/`¯º o/`¯º o/`¯º º¯`\o
01:26:46 <shachaf> This is a bit heavy on the bot spam for my taste.
01:26:54 <mauris> i suppose no one person can test this because the nick length affects it a little??
01:27:26 <oren> fffff _o_ _o_ _o_
01:27:45 <oren> fffff _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:27:45 <myndzi> /| >\ ´¸¨ |\ /^\ /| /| /| ´¸¨
01:28:42 <oerjan> i'm sure myndzi's script still has some bugs
01:29:03 <mauris> ps: hichaf, i will probably be busy for a while but maybe i will ping you when i'm ready for more greek letter fun
01:29:04 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 15
01:29:05 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:29:11 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 15'
01:29:11 <HackEgo> _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:29:12 <myndzi> | | | | | | | ¦ | | | | | | |
01:29:12 <myndzi> |\ /< |\ >\ >\ /´\ >\ ´¸¨ /'\ /< /< >\ |\ >\ /|
01:29:17 <mauris> shachaf: ^ + does this coderpad.io thing time out
01:29:42 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 30'
01:29:42 <HackEgo> _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:29:58 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 20'
01:29:59 <HackEgo> _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:30:04 <mauris> ah. well, i've copied it all into a text editor locally
01:30:11 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 17'
01:30:11 <HackEgo> _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:30:19 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 16'
01:30:19 <HackEgo> _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:30:26 <oren> `` perl -e 'print "_o_ " x 15'
01:30:26 <HackEgo> _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_ _o_
01:30:27 <myndzi> | | | | | ¦ | | | | | | | | |
01:30:27 <myndzi> |\ >\ |\ /'\ /| ´¸¨ >\ /^\ /| /| |\ /^\ /| /< /'\
01:30:43 <oren> the population limit is 15
01:31:12 <oerjan> i think i cannot in conscience let this go on for much longer
01:32:01 <dipperswett> All right, here's the insane output: https://db.tt/LvdF6xWG
01:32:09 <dipperswett> Relatively sane line: 15:05:48: -!- Sprocklem_ has joined #esoteric.
01:32:21 <dipperswett> Also relatively sane line: 13:33:12: <oerjan> eventually.tmm:IHv/!*t&v&[u|<d$.y�/q2u.+�&(fjc|=a,uP/.c)avJRv<fix}k
01:32:54 <oren> 14:27:10: <oren_> butzind:;*?}Bhok'-8:΋qšl+
01:32:55 <boily> exactly like the original oerjan!
01:33:00 <dipperswett> Did you catch the 0x0F byte in there? There's a 0x0F byte in there.
01:33:40 <dipperswett> I like this one: 03:42:10: <myname> candi raze | "a �# At) ...Too, fan5smKdwat!E
01:33:55 <boily> <Taneb> oerjan, I'm USl'nuqÌ ← is that one of Taneb's genders?
01:34:32 <boily> dipperswett: sadly, there aren't any CHICKENs in it.
01:35:17 <oren> it seems to know that there are 24 hours in a day and 60 minutes/seconds per hour/minute
01:36:13 <dipperswett> Though in insane mode, it does sometimes generate a timestamp like 16:5P:11.
01:36:44 <oerjan> @ask b_jonas <b_jonas> But I've met the similar non-qwerty TIs more. I've also seen HPs and Casios, but none of them have I delved so deeply as into that Sharp I own. <-- no balrogs yet?
01:36:53 <boily> dipperswett: that's simply fungot AM hth
01:36:53 <fungot> boily: now i'm finally feeling comfortable with the fact that the build system currently works, but i got the same answer, 16.
01:36:57 <dipperswett> Every line begins with something satisfying the regex '^..:..:..: ', with one exception: there's one beginning with '00:48 48: ' instead.
01:37:07 <fungot> dipperswett: one needs set-cdr!, and then
01:37:18 <fungot> boily: can you write the code usually it has only two words of the same
01:37:28 <boily> where was it again...
01:38:14 <HackEgo> Fnord AM is the repeated hour that happens when DST resolves. It is customary to celebrate it with a Garou Ping if one is awake during that time.
01:38:19 <boily> dipperswett: see ↑
01:38:35 <zzo38> O, that's what you call it. Now I can know!
01:39:22 <dipperswett> This line is surprisingly ASCII: 17:22:44: -!- dtsacotoo pretestrosee have somotored, mekz, too
01:40:39 <shachaf> oerjan: oots #1000 is coming out tonight hth
01:42:31 <zzo38> Have you ever try to make up any spell/psionics/feats/class for a Dungeons&Dragons game? Also how many characters did you ever make up in total if you can remember any idea/detail?
01:45:36 <dipperswett> I've probably made between five and ten D&D characters.
01:46:09 <zzo38> I am still playing tsume shogi game today (because I like this kind of game, although other people I have shown it to they do not understand it)
01:46:54 <zzo38> dipperswett: Do you remember any detail about class and level and other stuff?
01:47:21 <dipperswett> I remember them more as fictional characters than game mechanics. Let's see.
01:47:39 <zzo38> OK then, what kind of details as fictional characters do you remember?
01:48:15 <dipperswett> Redgroat, cleric. Duvessa Ashling, fighter. Dowan Ashling, sorcerer.
01:48:36 <dipperswett> Redgroat was insane but not brave. Duvessa was brave but not insane. Dowan was both brave and insane.
01:48:51 <dipperswett> For this reason, Redgroat and Duvessa couldn't really handle what was going on in the campaign.
01:49:33 <boily> dipperswett: what was the inspiration behind the Redgroat name?
01:49:36 <dipperswett> Dowan and Duvessa were pretty much completely inspired by this picture: http://i.imgur.com/bzQwC.png
01:50:00 <dipperswett> boily: a dessert which I'd call "Danish redgroat" in English.
01:50:12 <dipperswett> I can't type the slashy O's because I'm currently on STUPID WINDOWS.
01:50:24 <boily> ah! the Danishibboleth!
01:51:10 <boily> say, did you ever play DCSS?
01:51:24 <mauris> i can say that but it sounds a bit like i'm choking
01:51:43 <mauris> also yes, good characters lifted directly from dcss >:O
01:51:47 <zzo38> And, if they are both name Ashling are they of a same family or is just their name is the same? Also is it human character or something else, do you remember anything else about what kind of spells or personalities or what happened in those campaign, or what level?
01:52:19 <dipperswett> I think they both reached around level 8. As for personality...
01:52:36 <dipperswett> Duvessa was "the sober one" and Dowan was "the crazy one".
01:53:06 <zzo38> You already mention something like that, I think
01:53:15 <dipperswett> To give you some idea of their personalities, here's something I imagined happening...
01:53:45 <dipperswett> Dowan was killed in battle at the tender young age of 85. About forty-two years later, Duvessa finally managed to get him resurrected.
01:54:10 <dipperswett> She was, needless to say, ecstatic about this, and so she immediately wrote a letter to her parents.
01:54:28 <dipperswett> "Dear Keean and Ava Ashling. Your son is alive. Sincerely, Duvessa Ashling."
01:54:45 <dipperswett> She then handed the paper to Dowan, who scribbled a picture of himself grinning.
01:55:12 <zzo38> O, OK that's how it works
01:57:20 <dipperswett> I seem to have a thing for stories involving fraternal twins of opposite genders.
01:58:38 <zzo38> OK. I have never made up the D&D characters which are related, except for his cousin's godmother's roommate or something like that (I do not quite remember).
01:59:09 <oerjan> i've linked this before https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQkvqJJvR9U
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02:02:45 -!- dipperswett has set topic: This channel is logically pubbed. | The channel where Sir Fungellot does not [REDACTED]. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
02:05:01 <zzo38> I think I have played characters of levels from 2 all the way to 2 to 27 and now have two characters active (in campaigns that interfere with each other)
02:19:00 <mauris> shachaf: is `inNu . outNu = id` and `inMu . outMu = id`?
02:19:23 <shachaf> Also the other way around.
02:24:44 <shachaf> mauris: Nu f and Mu f are fixed points of f.
02:26:49 <oerjan> largest and smallest, no?
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02:45:06 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell aptitude that a package is already installed even though it is not installed?
02:48:58 <shachaf> oerjan: To the degree that that makes sense when you have a category rather than an ordering.
02:49:02 <shachaf> Terminal and initial, at any rate.
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03:12:01 <mauris> '<dipperswett> "Dear Keean and Ava Ashling. Your son is alive. Sincerely, Duvessa Ashling."' isn't that a weird way for her to address her parents / talk about her twin brother?!
03:18:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43941&oldid=43925 * 123.151.64.143 * (+1)
03:24:05 <HackEgo> olist 1000: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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03:39:11 <oren> Damn! stars everywhere, I died
03:39:15 <shachaf> unfortunately the Os have yet to be listed
03:41:19 <oren> I've beaten Imperishable Night but I've yet to get anywhere near beating Double Dealing Character
03:53:18 <zzo38> Many computer games have a high score list that you can type your name, but I generally don't type my name but instead type in something such as the date or level number
03:58:27 <mauris> shachaf: coming back to this, i have no idea how to do inNu/outNu
03:58:44 <shachaf> One of them is easier than the other one.
03:58:53 <shachaf> They're pretty much dual to inMu/outMu, if that helps.
03:59:32 <mauris> i haven't done those yet, but i guess it's the same kind of "one of them is easier than the other one" situation there, if they're duals?
04:00:15 <shachaf> But you might find a type without existentials easier to think about?
04:00:37 <shachaf> Really it's the same situation with both, though. You're either producing and consuming a universal, or you're producing and consuming an existential.
04:00:48 <shachaf> In both cases, you get to choose the type for one of them and not for the other.
04:13:16 <oerjan> shachaf: end of the world slightly postponed hth
04:13:51 <shachaf> oerjan: prediction: durkon defeats roy, wrecan defeats veldrina hth
04:15:08 <oerjan> i have an uncertain memory that i may have thought of that honor thing, but i didn't actually expect rich burlew to actually _use_ that aspect of norse mythology...
04:15:49 <shachaf> oerjan: hasn't it already come up twice
04:16:19 <shachaf> e.g. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0737.html
04:17:11 <oerjan> also, a helpful thought: no one else can help roy _fight_, but there are a lot of priests there and there might not be any rule against them _healing_ him...
04:18:04 <zzo38> Does that count as to help you to fight? Not really, but maybe it kind of is, I do not know how they would to consider such thing?
04:19:53 <oerjan> zzo38: i mean, no one else can directly attack for him
04:20:09 <oerjan> it remains to be seen what the actual rules are
04:20:42 <zzo38> But I am just making suggestion, I don't actually know.
04:21:15 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm wondering whether to make `olist print a link
04:21:21 <shachaf> especially now that it doesn't have to zero-pad
04:21:56 <shachaf> olist xyz into oots0xyz.html
04:22:39 <zzo38> shachaf: I still think may be better to do it properly by adding the correct amount of zero-padding such as in case it go beyond 999
04:22:53 <shachaf> zzo38: It just went to 1000.
04:23:01 <shachaf> And there are no more zeros.
04:23:29 <zzo38> OK, I suppose it take much longer if they ever decide to go to 10000 then they would have to change it anyways and it would take a long time.
04:24:15 <zzo38> I know that `danddreclist does print a link, but that one is the same URL each time; see other stuff you have too, whether or not it does same or differently links each time based on that.
04:31:16 <oerjan> getting to 10000 seems rather unlikely
04:32:00 <Sgeo> Does the "Don't kill other god's bodyguards" rule apply to bodyguards or to the priests too?
04:32:03 <oerjan> shachaf: ok so it was mentioned, i guess for foreshadowing
04:32:13 <shachaf> oerjan: it was also mentioned in another case
04:33:30 <Sgeo> Also not every priest there agrees with Durkon
04:33:34 <Sgeo> erm, agrees with Roy
04:33:43 <Sgeo> I assume, some might side with the god that they represent?
04:34:54 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think what Hel said is _very_ likely to make most of those Gods change their opinion
04:35:39 <Sgeo> Can they even change their vote? I can't believe that Hel is that dumb to say that if the gods can change their minds
04:36:31 <oerjan> Sgeo: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0994.html is pretty clear that priests cannot attack other priests
04:36:48 <oerjan> Sgeo: i assume she did vote last on purpose, yes
04:37:16 <Sgeo> Oh, but they might instruct their priests to act in a way contrary to their prior opinion
04:37:23 <Sgeo> Can priests hurt bodyguards?
04:38:04 <oerjan> that may not have been explicitly mentioned yet
04:39:37 <oerjan> i recommend assuming some narrative causality hth
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05:23:03 <zzo38> In this tsume shogi game sometimes there is multiple possibilities for the computer-controlled pieces to be played out, although only one is played. Sometimes the others are obvious, but sometimes it isn't so it might help to also have one mode to move the pieces by yourself in case you want to examine such possibilities.
05:31:26 <Sgeo> "Acting against your god's wishes is probably hazardous to your eternal afterlife."
05:32:01 <zzo38> Yes, although you might not necessarily care about an afterlife
05:33:05 <shachaf> mauris is learning all sorts of jams
05:41:22 <zzo38> At least my opinion (and that of some other people) is: the biggest Greed is wanting an afterlife.
05:48:37 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm new characters in green
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05:53:33 <oren> Now you can spell the band ℃-ute properly
06:00:43 <oren> or you can state in three characters that ℚ⊂ℝ
06:16:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: do you think something like Tajuru Preserver that protects you from _discard_ effects would be possible to work in the rules?
06:17:37 <b_jonas> of course it might be strange with draw-and-discard effects
06:17:46 <b_jonas> (or discard-and-draw effects of red)
06:18:12 <b_jonas> so it might be abusable if you also donate something
06:18:27 <b_jonas> but there are probably easier ways that that to draw a ton of cards
06:18:43 <zzo38> I am not quite sure? I do not see the reason why it should not work
06:21:21 <oren> I'm gonna go ahead and draw the kelvin sign as °K
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06:56:50 * oerjan hits oren with the saucepan ===\__/
07:00:51 <shachaf> what does it take to get the saucepan, huh?
07:02:03 <shachaf> Since when is mauris on this continent?
07:02:09 <lambdabot> Local time for mauris is Fri Aug 28 03:02:01
07:04:17 <shachaf> oerjan: who's the person who knows the name thundershield twh
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07:06:03 <oerjan> iirc she gave him that permission to return that never got back to him
07:07:12 <oerjan> she certainly looked short
07:07:28 <shachaf> Wait, I was looking at the wrong person.
07:27:53 <oerjan> oh she may not have been shown before http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0375.html
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08:03:30 <mauris> shachaf: yes somehow i am in florida!
08:04:00 <shachaf> en route to california, right?
08:05:24 <mauris> that would be cool but sadly i'm staying within this state until like, mid-september, and then going back home :(
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08:49:10 <HackEgo> celiccoin rimcoin tbarbaz,ohmy!coin iectcoin omagecoin agecoin subrientcoin rezcoin braincantcoin picoiicoin heformacoin beathcoin consurplandcoin ignercoin briggcoin abcdefencoin c-coin gizattecoin 5-longcoin brakcoin
08:49:23 <b_jonas> um what? "tbarbaz,ohmy!coin" ?
08:49:31 <b_jonas> what language is this using?
08:49:58 <HackEgo> partratrecoin liqcoin bfmcoin ypecoin vcoin cowrchemicasmitcoin azararicoin bflipcoin brbcoin bogurcoin egiambdarcoin noilancoin obbecoin tratcoin compalcoin bigcoin nonozcoin kimcoin dourcoin brecoin
08:50:27 <HackEgo> rumecoin maridgemacoin pietcoin womensiblecoin dd/ddcoin venandcoin anyngnedcoin slasscoin sbeezcoin easyecoin hatcoin orovskicoin linimcoin iikerefiftinuarelecomcoin bullycoin factcoin mechecoin facecoin rdwoncoin salcoin
08:52:20 <hppavilion[1]> Now someone just needs to make a chart of unit conversions
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09:01:59 <fizzie> b_jonas: English and esolangs.
09:02:52 <myname> what is the esolang part based on?
09:03:04 <fizzie> myname: esolangs.org "Language list" article, if I remember right.
09:03:33 <HackEgo> furscript dzzz reverseme kipple glypho flog .gertrelnokoff kelxquoia rflct superl when tg brainfche goto++ unreall torylambda tworb liquish catch mouse
09:04:22 <fizzie> It's sometimes a bit too plagiaristic, but not all of those are actually real.
09:07:30 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Foobar_and_Foobaz_and_Barbaz,_oh_my! hth
09:09:06 <oerjan> torylambda, the conservative functional language
09:09:33 <rdococ> sometimes I feel like every programming language has already been made
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09:34:00 <LewisMCYoutube> Hi, I heard this channel is weird in that wisdom thing.
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09:55:41 <rdococ> is there a programming language based on the stanley parable?
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09:58:29 <Slereah> that's a pretty broad question
09:58:48 <Slereah> <rdococ> is there a programming language based on the stanley parable?
09:59:29 <rdococ> tell me, what language
10:01:24 <Slereah> Also what would being based on the Stanley Parable entail
10:02:43 <Slereah> The Stanley Parable is basically just a choose your own adventure thing
10:02:48 <rdococ> maybe programs made with the language are games like the stanley parable with a lot of endings?
10:02:50 <Slereah> It's just a bunch of branching choices
10:03:03 <rdococ> sort of like my Folder really
10:03:04 <Slereah> It's not very specific to it
10:03:32 <rdococ> you could even remake the stanley parable in Folder, and even have all the audio and stuff, and it won't be that hard
10:06:06 <LewisMCYoutube> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf
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10:53:15 <boily> @ask oerjan you now wield a saucepan?
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11:23:46 <MDude> I would think that one use for unit tests would be as a form of search query that lets you search libraries to see if there's already a function that passes.
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12:57:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43942&oldid=43831 * Vioz- * (+2)
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12:59:48 <oren> I am wroking on a new unix utility
13:00:52 <oren> right now it's called ./a.out, happy?
13:01:16 <izabera> it'd be better to call it MEGATRON2773.d21
13:01:43 <izabera> memorable names help a lot
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13:03:02 <oren> ./a.out '%i%i' '%i{a+b}'
13:03:37 <oren> reads records of two integers at a time (32-bit) and writed out their sums
13:03:57 <izabera> ...you're writing a calculator?
13:04:13 <oren> a streaming calculatore
13:04:33 <oren> you define a function from input records to output records
13:05:10 <izabera> while (scanf(argv[1],something)) printf(argv[2],something); ?
13:05:48 <oren> yeah it is sort of like that but dynamic
13:06:45 <oren> awk works on plaintext. my utility is for binary
13:07:47 <oren> ./a.out '%F' '%F{F^0.5}'
13:07:54 <oren> ./a.out '%F' '%F{a^0.5}'
13:08:15 <oren> the variables are numbered in base 26 like in excel
13:10:41 <oren> so you can have an input record like '%i%F%20s%i', then a is an int, b is a double, c is a 20 character long string, and d is an int
13:11:30 <oren> you can also have delimited records like '%i%{a}s'
13:14:21 <oren> I might also make equivalents to grep and sort
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13:37:09 <dipperswett> @tell mauris Re talking about her twin brother: yes, it certainly is.
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13:42:48 <dipperswett> `run echo -e '\x034,9S\x039,4T\x034,9O\x039,4P\x034,9 \x039,4T\x034,9H\x039,4E\x034,9 \x039,4M\x034,9A\x039,4D\x034,9N\x039,4E\x034,9S\x039,4S' > madness
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13:58:24 <mroman> I found my python image script again!
13:59:34 <mroman> now I just need a camera that produces bad images
14:00:47 <mroman> coincidentally I'm on vacation!
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14:02:59 <mroman> izabera: where do you live?
14:03:19 <mroman> Finland, the land of fins.
14:03:47 <mroman> Every now and then you'll step into some fishy parts.
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14:04:56 <mroman> that's not too far away
14:05:02 <mroman> depending on *where* in italy exactly
14:05:17 <mroman> like... rich italy or poor italy?
14:05:34 <mroman> (super-rich italy obviously means vatican)
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14:06:04 <mroman> `learn vatican is the super-rich part of italy.
14:06:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'vatican': vatican is the super-rich part of italy.
14:06:31 <mroman> `learn vatican is the super-rich part of italy. Sadly, it has a huge crime rate.
14:06:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'vatican': vatican is the super-rich part of italy. Sadly, it has a huge crime rate.
14:06:48 <mroman> `learn vatican is the super-rich part of italy. Sadly, it has a huge crime rate. You will be robbed.
14:06:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'vatican': vatican is the super-rich part of italy. Sadly, it has a huge crime rate. You will be robbed.
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15:13:33 <HackEgo> cat: Requiescat in pace.: No such file or directory
15:13:33 <HackEgo> cat: HackEgo!!!!! Are you still alive???: No such file or directory
15:20:57 <dipperswett> All right, I don't know why my "loudly" utility isn't working.
15:20:59 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import itertools \ inp = raw_input() \ cyc = itertools.cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]) \ print "".join(cyc.next() + c for c in inp)
15:21:29 <dipperswett> `loudly It doesn't do anything; it just hangs for 30 seconds and then says "No output". Why is that?
15:22:02 <puckipedia> dipperswett: I would guess the stuff you put after the `loudly is arguments, not raw_input?
15:22:38 <HackEgo> bash: Let's: command not found \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/loudly", line 3, in <module> \ inp = raw_input() \ EOFError: EOF when reading a line
15:22:50 <dipperswett> `run echo Let\'s try that again again. | loudly
15:22:51 <HackEgo> Let's try that again again.
15:37:40 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric pro,
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15:38:47 <dipperswett> `run echo "I'm going to stop now." | loudly
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15:40:07 <ashl> ''.join(chain.from_iterable(izip(cycle(["\00304,09","\00309,04"]), inp)))
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15:42:07 <ashl> at least it has no weird side-effects in a generator expression!
15:42:47 <Frooxius> I mean the greeting! The color combination hurts! D: But that too :P
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15:58:36 <ashl> `run echo "''.join(chain.from_iterable(izip(cycle([\"\\00304,09\",\"\\00309,04\"]), inp)))" | loudly
15:58:37 <HackEgo> ''.join(chain.from_iterable(izip(cycle(["\00304,0,
15:59:12 <ashl> why did i bother quoting that myself
15:59:18 <ashl> `run loudly < loudly
15:59:19 <HackEgo> bash: loudly: No such file or directory
15:59:25 <ashl> `run loudly < $(which loudly)
16:02:22 <myname> `run echo 12345678901234567890123456789012345678901234567890 | loudly
16:02:23 <HackEgo> 1234567890123456789012345678901234567890123456789,
16:02:49 <myname> why does it cut at 49 chars?
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16:03:25 <ashl> `run echo 12 | loudly | wc -c
16:03:57 <ashl> `run echo 7 49 \* p | bc
16:03:58 <HackEgo> (standard_in) 1: syntax error
16:04:09 <ashl> `run echo 7 49 \* p | dc
16:04:23 <ashl> what's the length limit on IRC messages
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17:37:57 <dipperswett> ashl: I think the length limit is 512, but that's including metadata.
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17:38:58 <dipperswett> In HackEgo's case, each message is prefixed with ":HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"
17:39:03 <dipperswett> > length ":HackEgo!~HackEgo@162.248.166.242 PRIVMSG #esoteric :"
17:40:32 <zzo38> Also each message must end with CRLF does that count too or not?
17:40:42 <dipperswett> So the maximum body size for HackEgo is...
17:41:22 <b_jonas> wait, I have the computation for that in my notes
17:42:08 <b_jonas> see http://dpaste.com/0EBGH2K
17:42:12 <dipperswett> Each mIRC color code is six bytes (though I could use five instead), so each one-byte character ends up at 7 bytes, so the limit ends up being...
17:42:30 <b_jonas> you can get more if you use the name of the actual target channel/user.
17:42:47 <b_jonas> and your username and host (it's worth to choose a short username)
17:42:58 <zzo38> Yes, I thought that too, shorten your username
17:43:14 <zzo38> (b_jonas has just "~x")
17:43:17 <b_jonas> but you can't depend on your nick completely because the server may change it asynchronously on a colision
17:43:34 <b_jonas> dipperswett: no, do count the channel name at least
17:43:44 <b_jonas> dipperswett: 50 char long channel names rarely come up
17:43:57 <b_jonas> dipperswett: so use the name of the actual target channel or nick (which you _do_ know) for the computation
17:44:19 <b_jonas> also, you get one more byte from a NOTICE than from a PRIVMSG :-)
17:44:26 <dipperswett> b_jonas: so... the maximum body size for HackEgo sending to #esoteric is 457 bytes, then?
17:45:22 <zzo38> Yes you would (and a reply which is not itself meant to be auto-replied to should be NOTICE anyways)
17:46:53 <zzo38> You could also change the IP-address/domain-name, if I was allowed to have "zzo38computer.org" instead of "24-207-56-9.eastlink.ca" then it would be shorter.
17:47:10 <dipperswett> Whelp, it doesn't handle multi-byte characters correctly.
17:47:23 <zzo38> But they won't do it even though I would said so
17:47:32 <b_jonas> dipperswett: dunno, I can't do additions now. you figure it out.
17:48:25 <b_jonas> dipperswett: basically, you have to have ":nick!user@host PRIVMSG target :-message\r\n" to fit in 512 bytes
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18:03:23 <zzo38> Why do I often get this error: Warning: Cannot convert string "-*-helvetica-medium-r-*-*-12-*-*-*-*-*-*" to type FontStruct
18:03:33 <zzo38> It is not the font I am trying to use
18:04:03 <zzo38> Is it trying to use Helvetica instead of Fixed and if so, why?
18:04:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: that error from running what program? I don't get the context
18:05:08 <zzo38> Many programs give that error, although the program still runs.
18:05:08 <coppro> it is incorrect to think of it as you "get"ing an error
18:05:15 <zzo38> And I get no problems with the program
18:05:17 <coppro> all that is occurring is that your program is printing that string
18:08:24 <zzo38> Yes, although it seems many programs do
18:09:15 <zzo38> Xterm also shows a similar message the first time you display a menu (although many of the * are changed to other things)
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18:14:26 <zzo38> Some things for my new Dungeons&Dragons character I did not fill in yet, such as: eye, height, weight, age, alphabet.
18:15:32 <zzo38> How can you do with aptitude to check what commands are installed by a package?
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18:26:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: "alphabet"? what does that maen in this context?
18:26:31 <b_jonas> did you fill in the blood type yet?
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18:30:15 <zzo38> Blood type isn't one of the stuff that would be important here. (If it ever does become important then I suppose we can decide at random at that point)
18:31:15 <zzo38> Alphabet means what kind of alphabets to use for writing; they list the alphabets of the languages in the Dungeons&Dragons book but they didn't list this one (it says they have their own language, but not any details such as alphabet)
18:31:47 <stalem> zzo38 fontstruct eh? nice, could i have a look at your work?
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18:32:32 <zzo38> I do not use fontstruct
18:33:06 <stalem> oh i thought so seeing as it was included in your error message
18:33:24 <stalem> but i geuss you got a font from there?
18:34:01 <zzo38> No, that is something to do with the X window protocol
18:34:17 <zzo38> "FontStruct" is the data type used for font data
18:38:50 <stalem> fair enough haha i had no idea
18:41:09 <zzo38> For designing printer fonts I prefer METAFONT
18:41:52 <zzo38> (For screen fonts, tile editor editing by pixels work best in my opinion, though)
18:43:10 <stalem> hm, curious you should say, because fontstruct.com is just that; font design mosaic style. truetype instead of bitmaps, but still works great for pixel fonts
18:44:43 <stalem> but as i'm not experienced in font creation, metafont and tile editor are prob far better editor
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18:45:57 <Taneb> Help I'm teaching someone monads
18:46:22 <zzo38> The Computer Modern fonts used with TeX are made with METAFONT. I also made a set of chess icons with METAFONT
18:46:31 <dipperswett> Taneb: why are you teaching someone monads?
18:47:00 <dipperswett> Does he know Haskell? Does he already understand how to do I/O?
18:47:11 <Taneb> He knows a bit of Haskell but not much
18:47:19 <zzo38> Taneb: When using with Haskell programming (or possibly some other computer programming) I believe it seem best to explain in terms of list comprehensions if you know that already
18:47:26 <Taneb> Also I cannot get into my salsa
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18:47:45 <dipperswett> Generally, one should understand I/O before learning monads.
18:47:49 <zzo38> Because you can see how the monad operations are corresponding to list comprehension stuff, and then you can see it is generalized.
18:48:18 <zzo38> dipperswett: Some people believe that, some don't. My own opinion is not; it can be learn at same time
18:48:46 <Taneb> dipperswett, I'm avoiding talking about IO
18:49:05 <Taneb> It's a monad, sure, but it leads people to the red herring that "Monads are about IO"
18:49:12 <dipperswett> One shouldn't learn monads *in order to* understand IO.
18:49:25 <dipperswett> That's like learning ring theory in order to understand arithmetic.
18:49:29 <zzo38> Yes that is true you should avoid that it is aboit I/O
18:49:47 <zzo38> Nevertheless it seem one example of it.
18:50:13 <Taneb> So I am showing him Maybe and []
18:50:20 <Taneb> Not sure where to go after that... maybe Writer?
18:50:22 <zzo38> Whether or not you know how to make I/O in Haskell, you can understand its working also by monad (same you can also understand lists working by monad, even if you already know lists working)
18:50:58 <zzo38> I would probably start with lists and list comprehensions, since if you already know list comprehension even from other programming languages, you may see how it is generalized.
18:51:55 <zzo38> (And then you can easily see what return, fmap, and join for lists mean and then also what bind means, since you can see this bind also related to list comprehensions)
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19:33:51 <b_jonas> wtf you must be kidding me
19:34:06 <b_jonas> sorry, I'm trying to see what this linker error means
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19:37:35 <zzo38> What error and what circumstance? If it is the bug then you should try to figure out and possibly to report. What linker is it?
19:37:52 <b_jonas> that fails to define this template function
19:38:09 <zzo38> Ah, but what library is it?
19:38:20 <b_jonas> wait, I'm still looking at it
19:38:37 <zzo38> Which is a library for doing what?
19:39:33 <b_jonas> there is a definition here
19:39:41 <b_jonas> that's a different overload
19:39:56 <b_jonas> this constructor has like twelve overloads
19:40:41 <b_jonas> hmm, it doesn't seem to be defined
19:40:47 <b_jonas> opencv is a library for image processing
19:41:16 <dipperswett> Taneb: did I ever tell you my "it's impossible to understand monads" idea?
19:41:37 <dipperswett> People often try to come up with some summary of what a monad is, which is both accurate and easy to understand.
19:41:49 <Taneb> Oh no, that is absolutely true
19:42:02 <dipperswett> Along the lines of "monads are a certain type of container", or "a monad is a context in which a computation can execute", or something like that.
19:42:17 <b_jonas> the definition missing is that of template<typename T> cv::Mat_<T>::Mat_(int ndims, const int *sizes, T *data, const size_t *steps);
19:42:35 <dipperswett> I think that it's really not possible to come up with a "good" summary.
19:42:58 <b_jonas> dipperswett: is that like the "monad tutorial fallacy"?
19:43:23 <dipperswett> You don't understand monads by realizing that monads are really just some simple underlying thing.
19:43:46 <dipperswett> You understand monads by knowing the definition of a monad, and enough examples that you can see how they're related to each other and how other things relate to the examples.
19:44:11 <b_jonas> dipperswett: definitely sounds like the monad tutorial fallacy
19:44:18 <dipperswett> b_jonas: is that the same as the "I've figured out the secret" fallacy?
19:44:49 <dipperswett> You struggle for a long time to understand something, and then after learning some fact, you finally understand the concept.
19:45:01 <dipperswett> You conclude that "the secret" to understanding the concept is whatever the last fact you learned was.
19:45:22 <dipperswett> And so you go out and write a blog post that's supposed to make it easy for everyone by telling them "the secret".
19:45:30 <b_jonas> dipperswett: https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
19:45:36 <b_jonas> dipperswett: yes, sounds like that
19:46:02 <dipperswett> It doesn't work, because "the secret" is merely one of the crucial components. People need to know all of them, not just the one.
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19:47:31 <zzo38> I did suggest to do by example and also by definition
19:49:46 <dipperswett> I figure that if I wanted to teach people mathematics, I'd try to explain everything.
19:50:27 <dipperswett> The definition. The intuition. Examples. How the intuition describes the examples. How the examples motivate the definition. How the definition satisfies the intuition. And so forth.
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20:26:22 <zzo38> Even the first Dungeons&Dragons character I played which was a level 2 human wizard, I was able to defeat a level 11 human wizard who for some reason was able to use ten magical rings at once, and even had a magic rod in his belt, several spellbooks, etc. I was able to defeat him by stealing the wand (while he thought he had me paralyzed) and breaking it in half, this destroyed all of his rings as well as a necklace he was wearing; his spellbooks we
20:27:58 <zzo38> Earlier, our group of three characters managed to escape detection by disguising ourself as statues and standing next to similarly shaped statues (which the DM says were actually put there to work against us), and writing numbers above them
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20:58:42 <zzo38> The GNU "units" program is using old exchange rates, what program can be use to do currency conversion which can automatically download current exchange rates if configured?
20:59:51 <stalem> why not write one yourself?
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21:00:01 <stalem> otherwise, google does it afaik
21:00:40 <stalem> so i guess a simple script or something to do a google search on the currency conversion, grep the result and print?
21:13:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mice in a maze]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43943&oldid=41879 * 63.232.95.4 * (+1) /* Mice */
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21:25:46 <fowl> Google is the best calculator
21:26:10 <fowl> It even understands math like 1+2)*3
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21:39:08 <stalem> anyone fancy with regex? i've been stuck with a problematic pattern for the last hour now
21:39:29 <stalem> it should be trivial so i must be doing something horribly wrong
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21:44:28 <stalem> hm no closer but not quite there. the pattern ^[\w\d\{\} ]+(/[\w\d\{\} ]*)+[^\/]$ captures n/n/) but not n/(n)/)
21:44:37 <stalem> while it should capture neither of those
21:47:16 <ashl> by capture do you mean match
21:48:37 <stalem> i sometimes switch places with match and capture groups
21:48:48 <stalem> their definitions that is
21:48:54 <fizzie> Why do you think it shouldn't match those?
21:48:56 <ashl> why shouldn't it match those
21:49:38 <fizzie> n/n/) matches with "n" in the first part, "/n" in first repeat of the paren block, "/" in the other repeat, and ")" matching the [^\/].
21:50:14 <stalem> i guess the [^\/] pattern is wrong then. looking at my pattern i noticed im not even consistent in escaping my slashes
21:50:36 <fizzie> Do you have a simple description of what you want to be matching?
21:50:57 <stalem> i'm writing it right now ;)
21:51:38 <fizzie> (Incidentally, [\w\d] is redundant and the same as [\w], because \w is alpha-and-numeric.)
21:52:31 <stalem> a pattern that matches one or more words, numbers, {, } or spaces, followed by one or more groups consisting of a single forward slash and one or more words, numbers, {, } or spaces
21:52:57 <stalem> should not end in a slash. i e 2/x/{2} is valid while 2//2/ is not
21:53:03 <stalem> thanks for the tip btw!
21:53:39 <stalem> i guess i should read up on regex a bit, i'm feelin a bit rusty now
21:53:56 <fizzie> Is "2//2/" also not valid because of the // in the middle? Because that doesn't fit in your description.
21:54:33 <stalem> "consisting of a _single_ forward slash" i thought i did, but yes, no double slashes
21:54:51 <fizzie> Turning the description directly into a regex would give [\w{} ]+(?:/[\w{} ]+)+
21:55:04 <fizzie> Where the (?:...) can be a (...) but a non-capturing group seems more reasonable.
21:55:46 <stalem> seems to be working wonders!
21:56:27 <fizzie> You're welcome, but I think you did the hard work in writing that description, because I just wrote a mechanical translation of it.
21:56:50 <ashl> why does myndzi do that
21:56:55 <stalem> nah mate, i call it teamwork!
21:57:02 <stalem> badly formatted stick figures
21:57:30 <stalem> fizzie: tho i was thrown off by the [^\/] matching a paren. why would it do that?
21:57:52 <fizzie> You asked for "anything that's not a slash", and a paren is not a slash.
21:58:02 <zzo38> I can just use dc when I can calculate arbitrary precision stuff, I can make such calculation by command-line, it is working OK.
21:58:22 <stalem> of course! now i feel stupider than before hah
22:03:20 -!- ProofTechnique has joined.
22:04:43 <fizzie> Re earlier discussion, Google used to have a "Finance API", but it was removed in a "spring cleaning". Our esteemed competitor Yahoo! still has a "yahoo.finance.xchange" data source in their "YQL" API.
22:05:30 * ashl frowns at the idea that yahoo is a competitor to google
22:05:34 <stalem> hm i guess datamining the raw html isn't an option?
22:06:52 <fizzie> It's always an option, I just think it's generally inelegant.
22:08:08 <stalem> i agree, but as a last resort it's worth something, i know of some sites that provides daily stock market dumps, but not an api for exchange prices
22:08:52 <fizzie> ashl: Well, I mean, in some areas at least. Gmail vs. Yahoo Mail, and so on.
22:09:28 <ashl> yahoo has a mail service?
22:10:32 <stalem> has had for as long as i can remember
22:10:59 <ashl> i assume their business model is the same as google's, namely churning out ads?
22:12:43 <stalem> come to think of it, i actually have no idea what yahoo's main business interests are since google took over the search engine market
22:13:15 <ashl> i don't even really think of google as a search engine company any more ;)
22:13:19 <ashl> how times have changed
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22:13:34 <fizzie> "According to third-party web analytics providers, Alexa and SimilarWeb, Yahoo! is the highest-read news and media website, with over 7 billion readers per month, being the fourth most visited website globally, as of June 2015."
22:13:45 <fizzie> Not exactly defunct yet.
22:14:03 <stalem> ashl: ah yes remember landline phones? those where the days
22:14:27 <stalem> that is interesting. i guess it must be highly localized cos i never see any yahoo news or media here in the nords
22:14:50 <ashl> stalem: yes, i even had one until a couple of months ago!
22:14:54 <fizzie> They tried to get to social networking, but I think it went about as well as G+.
22:15:15 <izabera> 7 billion readers per month are highly localized?
22:15:24 -!- Patashu has joined.
22:15:30 <ashl> well, obviously it's not unique readers :P
22:15:50 <izabera> dunno, my grandma goes on yahoo pretty often
22:15:55 <stalem> ashl: nice! why did you have to get rid of it?
22:16:08 <ashl> stalem: i didn't have to, per se, i just moved house
22:16:18 <fizzie> Here (UK) it's pretty hard to get a DSL thing without a bundled landline. I have one, but I don't have a machine plugged in it.
22:16:26 <stalem> izabera: exactly. i think mostly older generations read yahoo, and they are highly localized geographically
22:16:35 <ashl> fizzie: i thought it was impossible unless you were in london
22:16:45 <izabera> ...i was jk, my grandma doesn't know how to use a computer
22:17:09 <stalem> ashl; then i would get a new one! before they're completely lost. i know the newer generations have NO idea what a phone is and are dumbfounded when confronted with one
22:17:17 <ashl> londoners don't tend to have a good idea what things are like outside london :P
22:17:40 <zzo38> I have a landline telephone too
22:17:42 <fizzie> I saw some providers with a "no telephone" option, but it generally didn't seem to save any money really.
22:17:51 <stalem> maybe your grandma has you fooled? but i stand by that i think older generations tend towards yaoo
22:17:57 <zzo38> (Although not with the internet; the internet is with the television service)
22:18:20 <stalem> im more content now that i know people still use landlines at home
22:19:11 <fizzie> In the university campus back home (Finland), you could call local university numbers for free, and they had a dialup modem bank, so the landline was a handy backup internet service if something happened to the campus network.
22:19:21 <stalem> zzo38: interesting, where i come from all three are usually in one package. tv, phone and internet for one price. pick n mix
22:19:25 <fizzie> (They were entirely separate systems.)
22:20:18 <stalem> nice brother of coast! how many finns are on here anyway? or scandinavians in general
22:20:24 <stalem> i get a feeling they're overrepresented
22:22:12 <fizzie> There's been quite a few Finns.
22:23:10 <stalem> been? what have you done with them? :P
22:23:23 <fizzie> I count 5 in the current list of nicks, and one Finnish word that might be.
22:23:43 <stalem> not bad. then we have the icelandic augur
22:23:56 <ashl> the icelandic augur?
22:23:59 <augur> i will never be icelandic!
22:24:01 <fizzie> Also there was someone with a non-Finnish background, who had moved to Finland, but I forget who that was.
22:24:12 <stalem> you are now! EYE OF ICELAND!
22:24:29 <HackEgo> Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
22:25:04 <stalem> learn is the command for new entries right?
22:26:22 <augur> to be icelanding, my nick needs more diacritics and shit. aúgurðùrr
22:26:55 <ashl> iceland (v) to add diacritics and shit
22:30:17 <zzo38> I have made up the back story of my new Dungeons&Dragons character and also wrote one for my other character (I lost the previous one if I ever had one); if the other player also write their character back story then I can put those ones into the computer too.
22:30:52 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
22:31:10 <stalem> unfortunately i've never played d&d
22:32:57 <zzo38> You have not? I have made recording of story of stuff that we do in Dungeons&Dragons game
22:33:39 <stalem> nope. every 'friend' i've ever had never had an interest in it or didn't know what it is
22:33:45 <stalem> i bet it's a ton of fun
22:37:16 <zzo38> It is the 3.5 edition that I play. Some people prefer newer or older versions
22:37:24 <HackEgo> bhrach éifeag formaidh sail t-iar faich smùc ridheana bhean dha garra léig bhear fig dhuidh prìne cnàmh phanach leóghaich h-ait
22:37:37 <fizzie> We didn't have Icelandic, so I went with an approximation.
22:38:51 <stalem> funny thing, i'm actually designing a scripting language for generating fake (spoken) languages
22:39:13 <stalem> so are those true gaelic words?
22:39:45 <zzo38> See if you think these background story are OK, or if there is a mistake, but, when available I will also show to the referee and then possibly we will have to get past him too.
22:40:36 <stalem> i'm a complete noob on this but sure
22:40:41 <zzo38> I want to connect a HP Laserjet 4 printer to my computer but this new computer does not have a parallel port
22:41:03 <stalem> do you have a parallel>usb connector?
22:41:25 <stalem> then that might turn out to be a problem
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22:41:41 <zzo38> This computer has far more USB ports than I should ever need but no parallel port
22:42:32 <stalem> who uses parallel ports nowadays anyways?
22:42:41 <stalem> i recommend a converter or a new printer!
22:44:21 <zzo38> USB isn't very good though. Also a HP Laserjet 4 printer is a pretty good printer; I don't have another PCL laser printer but even if I had I would want to use PCL and laser printer
22:44:36 <fizzie> There are also things you can do conveniently with a parallel port that require extra hardware for USB.
22:44:50 <Hoolootwo> USB is very high-latency, so parallel ports are good for really low-latency stuff
22:46:11 <stalem> i guess that's true. never having to use parallel ports puts me out of perspective
22:46:18 <zzo38> This computer does at least have PS/2 for keyboard and mouse though, and I want to disable support for USB keyboard/mouse for security purposes (but still support filesystem device); how can I do that with Linux?
22:47:18 <zzo38> (I don't like USB automount filesystems either but I have already avoided that I think)
22:47:59 <ashl> what's the security issue
22:49:01 <fizzie> zzo38: One way might be to add "blacklist X" lines in the modprobe configuration for USB input drivers, so they're not loaded at all.
22:49:24 <fizzie> Possibly "blacklist usbhid" would be enough.
22:49:25 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:51:42 <Hoolootwo> that wouldn't work for non-HID input devices though
22:52:37 <zzo38> As long as it is not a primary input device (i.e. the keyboard and mouse) I am fine if they can still work with USB
22:53:33 <izabera> @tell oren i found this http://arin.ga/BaYiFD/raw
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23:03:11 <int-e> no disconnect in 11 days
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23:05:47 <stalem> any suggestions about this font being used as a programming font? http://fontstruct.com/fontstructions/show/1179104
23:07:06 -!- sebbu has joined.
23:07:17 -!- oerjan has set topic: The font of all knowledge | The channel where Sir Fungellot does not [REDACTED]. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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23:08:11 <oren> stalem: very nice
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23:09:17 <stalem> oren: thank you! i am a bit concerned it's too fancy for being useful.
23:09:35 <fizzie> The #$%& sequence looks a bit crowded. But to be fair, it does on this font too.
23:09:53 <shachaf> fizzie: whoa whoa whoa, no need to get rude about it
23:10:55 <stalem> haha yeah it's a tight squeeze
23:11:25 <oren> I used to use Sanafon Obi, so yours doesn't look swishy by comparison
23:11:34 <stalem> i guess it's a real issue with monospaced fonts; i and j provide lots of spacing while the chars you mentioned are toghtly packed
23:11:36 -!- boily has joined.
23:12:31 <stalem> can't seem to be able to find that font, but good thing i'm not overdoing it then
23:13:46 <oren> http://sana.s12.xrea.com/2_sanafonmaru.html
23:13:54 <oren> oh, it was maru
23:14:12 <oren> Maybe the Obi font was from a different website
23:14:30 <stalem> you didn't program in japanese did you?
23:15:06 <oren> No, but I can read and write it.
23:15:07 <stalem> you did didn't you? :D i found the page http://sana.s12.xrea.com/2_sanafonobi.html
23:15:17 <oren> Oh there it is
23:15:24 <boily> stalellom! helloren!
23:15:53 <stalem> not bad mate, i'm impressed by ppl reading/writing japanese
23:16:00 <oren> afk getting buffalo wings, back in 15 min...
23:16:27 <boily> afk getting a haircut. be back in amodné.
23:16:37 -!- boily has quit (Quit: OTHERWORLDLY CHICKEN).
23:17:22 <lambdabot> boily asked 12h 24m 7s ago: you now wield a saucepan?
23:17:22 <lambdabot> stalem said 10h 21m 23s ago: hey. i realized i reacted over the top back when and i know it's not an excuse, but i'm a bit of a fuck-up. i guess my lesson is to do my research before attempting stupid shit
23:17:44 <oerjan> stalem: sorry, i assumed boily's message was the only one
23:17:52 <stalem> nah that's ok i dont mind really
23:17:56 <oerjan> otherwise i'd have checked that in private
23:18:08 <stalem> i guess the whole channel might as well get the apology, i did write everything in here so
23:18:22 <oerjan> @tell boily The saucepan is also ancient hth
23:18:30 <stalem> it's mostly that we spoke primarily so i thought it would be appropriate to /msg it
23:21:36 <oerjan> stalem: btw the interesting part of what you did was showing that those are the _only_ solutions. although i think you went a bit fast on excluding the extra 0s case (it's still true, i checked)
23:23:18 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
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23:28:57 <stalem> oerjan: well what do you know, i made a small contribution after all. too bad the page is blasted into cyblivion now haha
23:29:33 <stalem> oerjan: btw what do you mean the extra 0s case? the 0 \/ part?
23:30:01 * oerjan didn't save the page either, although he considered it
23:31:42 <oerjan> it's a bit subtle because it can preserve the length for a little while. e.g. 2 2 -> 0 0
23:32:59 <oerjan> 4 1 4 1 -> 4 1 0 0 -> 0 0 0 0
23:33:03 <stalem> well, if it's worth it maybe i could take some time to rewrite it i dunno
23:33:40 <stalem> it is, that's true. pretty much like shifting the sequence to the left slowly, before 0 0 becomes the instruction and it dies
23:34:52 <stalem> i'm a bit bummed now i didn't pipe my experiment sequences to a file
23:39:20 <oerjan> stalem: btw there is an elegant way to see why that equation has only the solutions 2,2 and 1,3
23:40:09 <oerjan> hm if i could remember what the equation was...
23:40:49 <shachaf> oerjan: is the saucepan more ancient than you twh
23:40:56 <oerjan> you can rewrite that as x * (y - 1) = 2
23:41:04 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
23:41:12 <shachaf> ok that might've come across as ruder than i intended
23:41:43 <oerjan> shachaf: possibly not hth
23:41:46 <int-e> hmm, pan... ---(##)
23:41:55 <Taneb> How many solutions are there of w^3 + x^3 + y^3 = z^3 for natural w,x,y,z?
23:42:21 <Taneb> Are there infinite?
23:42:21 <oerjan> Taneb: i dunno but i'm pretty sure i've seen that discussed somewhere
23:43:16 <stalem> oerjan: that's neat! i'm noting it for when i rewrite the article
23:44:31 <stalem> also why does hth and twh mean in this realm? i'd like to be enlightened, cos i'm pretty sure hth doesnt mean hope this helps
23:44:55 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
23:45:31 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
23:45:35 <Taneb> oerjan, the answer seems to be "some"
23:45:42 <oerjan> stalem: that should clear it up hth
23:45:59 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
23:46:12 <stalem> esoteric in its essence
23:46:28 <stalem> everything is nothing?
23:46:29 <int-e> hackego does not know everything
23:46:47 <stalem> ergo hackego knows nothing
23:47:46 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
23:48:13 <mauris> i think i sort of derived the meaning of hth twh twnh tdnh etc. through osmosis :(
23:48:21 <HackEgo> fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
23:48:47 <int-e> `? something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom
23:48:54 <mauris> yesterday shachaf typed "tmnhh" and i understood it and it was worrying
23:49:17 <int-e> `? things boily likes
23:49:18 <HackEgo> Fire is good. I like fire. Also chicken. And phở.
23:49:22 <shachaf> i understood an oerjan acronym which i think even oerjan was surprised i understood
23:49:27 <shachaf> i don't remember what it was, though
23:49:30 <int-e> I think that's all the things in HackEgo's wisdom.
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23:49:44 <stalem> shachaf: a year or so here and i'm there with you
23:50:00 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:50:37 <stalem> shachaf sorry that was meant for mauris eeh
23:51:10 <fizzie> I was about to say that that's the DVI/HDMI thing, but that's TMDS.
23:51:14 <int-e> that doesn't make sense ;-)
23:51:18 -!- ProofTechnique has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
23:51:40 -!- ProofTec_ has changed nick to ProofTechnique.
23:51:46 <fizzie> Transition-diminished minusfrential signaling.
23:52:16 <shachaf> oerjan: what was that acronym i figured out recently twh
23:52:24 <stalem> all i can think of is the dance must stay alive always
23:52:42 <fizzie> The ambiguity of does/doesn't dh in understanding these acronyms.
23:52:48 <int-e> stalem: not bad, but "that doesn't make sense at all" was the intended reading.
23:53:13 <shachaf> int-e: please remain consistent with tdh/tdnh twh hand
23:53:23 <fizzie> tdnms it was just established.. oh, okay.
23:53:48 <stalem> int-e: ah finally some clarity hah!
23:54:19 <int-e> shachaf: I'm consistently inconsistent. You may recall that I've been complaining about tdh a lot.
23:54:33 <oerjan> shachaf: i also don't remember. i'm wondering if my deteriorating memory is karma for making y'all remembering all the acronyms tdnh
23:54:58 <shachaf> int-e: i'd ask you to change the meaning of tdms, but the definition must stand
23:55:39 <oerjan> int-e: my mind revulses at letting d mean "doesn't"
23:57:04 <Taneb> I remember seeing, possibly in a dream, that you need to sum at least n nth powers to get an nth power
23:57:26 <int-e> oerjan: that doesn't bother me (almost resisting the temptation to abbreviate it to "tdbm")
23:57:35 <oerjan> <int-e> that doesn't make sense ;-) <-- on the contrary, that makes double sense hth
23:58:22 <int-e> aww, "iswydt" even has an urban dictionary entry
23:59:18 <oerjan> int-e: is it about sex
23:59:30 <Taneb> I suppose a proof of that would have Fermat's Last Theorem has a trivial whatdoyoucallit
23:59:36 <Taneb> Might begin with c
23:59:37 <int-e> that's actually a good question, it could be.
23:59:56 <int-e> oerjan: but not really
00:00:54 <int-e> the "has" did not help
00:01:23 <Taneb> Hmm, that statement may be a conjecture
00:02:19 <oerjan> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler%27s_sum_of_powers_conjecture which is alas false
00:02:30 <shachaf> 15.05.29:16:32:58 <oerjan> shachaf: ityarfo
00:04:20 <shachaf> 15.05.29:16:29:41 <oerjan> haven't you americanized your grade system yet
00:04:25 <fizzie> "Euler's conjecture was disproven by L. J. Lander and T. R. Parkin in 1966 when, through a direct computer search on a CDC 6600, they found a counterexample for k = 5." I wonder if real mathematicians lamented on the impertinence of these young computerfolk, that they'd so rudely disprove someone's conjencture not through proper thinking but just a mechanical contrivance.
00:04:31 <shachaf> 15.05.29:16:31:37 <shachaf> oerjan: itym americanised hth
00:04:55 <Taneb> Maybe it's something weird like you need n+1 summands for the power of the nth prime
00:05:52 <mauris> shachaf: is that "i think you are right for once"
00:06:13 <oerjan> <int-e> that's actually a good question, it could be. <-- my impression a while ago was that UD entries are at least as likely to be about sex as to be accurate
00:06:16 <shachaf> mauris: why are you asking me
00:06:41 <coppro> oerjan: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=dbelange
00:06:47 <int-e> oerjan: so depending on the amount of overlap it could all be correct? yay!
00:06:48 <mauris> well you remembered this happening and ørjan didn't!
00:07:00 -!- function has changed nick to trout.
00:07:17 <shachaf> mauris: I suspect oerjan remembered it happening, just not the specific abbreviation.
00:08:30 <int-e> . o O ( aiming for s/rfo/rft/ ?! )
00:09:22 <int-e> it's a long way to from rfo to raa (right as always)
00:09:45 <oerjan> <mauris> shachaf: is that "i think you are right for once" <-- that's my guess too hth
00:09:59 <shachaf> int-e: <oerjan> ...make that twice
00:10:16 <shachaf> that's not a copy-and-paste quote, it's just what i remember oerjan saying
00:10:22 <shachaf> because i already deleted the logs hth
00:10:41 <shachaf> 15.05.29:16:33:19 <oerjan> ...make that twice
00:10:46 <int-e> shachaf: "thrice" has a t, too
00:11:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i didn't remember until you pasted hth
00:11:36 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't paste hth, i always type it
00:11:38 <Taneb> int-e, so does Taneb, if you'll allow some narcissistic non-sequitur
00:11:56 <int-e> Taneb: right for taneb?
00:12:23 <int-e> shachaf: I meant as a first letter.
00:12:36 <Taneb> I do prefer the Oxford spelling
00:12:38 <int-e> int-e has a t as well
00:12:52 <shachaf> but it has a negative number of 'e's
00:13:18 <Taneb> It is kind of weird seeing "Nathan" in IRC
00:15:06 <HackEgo> Thanks, Tom Hanks. Thom Hanks.
00:15:44 <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
00:16:07 <fizzie> If people kept otters as pets, I'm pretty sure someone would give a pet otter that name.
00:17:52 <oerjan> Taneb: oh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermat_cubic
00:18:27 <Taneb> I am going to go to bed now, though
00:18:33 <Taneb> I have a train to catch in the morning!
00:18:41 <Taneb> So I should sleep between then and now
00:18:57 <Taneb> Train's not for another 9 hours
00:19:15 <fizzie> "Is your refrigerator in a train? Then you'd better catch it." Prank calls gone wrong.
00:19:39 <int-e> . o O ( somehow this amuses me too much )
00:19:47 <shachaf> fizzie: there's a channel for that hth
00:20:01 <oerjan> `learn <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
00:20:04 <HackEgo> Learned '<fizzie>': <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
00:20:20 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:20:26 <oerjan> `addquote <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
00:20:27 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/': Is a directory \ Forget what?
00:20:29 <HackEgo> 1253) <fizzie> I was watching a pair of otters, and somehow the name "Harry P. Otter" hasn't left my brain since.
00:20:30 <shachaf> fizzie: Hey, what's with that?
00:20:37 <fizzie> shachaf: I still haven't fixed it.
00:20:39 <shachaf> fizzie: Fix the canary.orig thing! twh
00:20:47 <shachaf> fizzie: the world holds its breath
00:20:48 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ rm "wisdom/$(echo "$1" | tr A-Z a-z)" \ echo "Forget what?"
00:20:58 <fizzie> shachaf: But I think it is still reverting, I saw someone revert and it seemed to work.
00:22:04 <shachaf> int-e: it was reverted a long time ago hth
00:22:09 <int-e> shachaf: it wasn't.
00:22:21 <fizzie> It doesn't seem to have been.
00:22:34 <fizzie> But I distinctly saw someone do `revert and then something was no longer there. So weird.
00:22:54 <fizzie> There's an int-e `revert 11 days ago which did a change.
00:22:58 <fizzie> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/e12c9660a9e7
00:23:23 <fizzie> I have no idea why oerjan's revert did nothing. Perhaps it's gone nondeterministic.
00:23:35 <fizzie> Because it still printed the error.
00:24:10 <int-e> fizzie: yes, its quite erratic
00:25:07 <int-e> `` ln -s equals wisdom/equals
00:25:21 <int-e> oh that won't work... stupid plurals
00:25:47 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/equals; ln -s equal wisdom/equal
00:27:35 <HackEgo> <ZombieCheney> wipes the floor with <oren_>
00:28:22 <oerjan> fizzie: i think it's something to do with file creation not reverting properly, and being inconsistent between the repo and the actual directory
00:28:26 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/\
00:28:38 <oerjan> i'm not sure which one ends up winning in the end
00:29:15 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/<zombiecheney>
00:30:50 <oerjan> <int-e> oh that won't work... stupid plurals <-- it checks the exact filename first hth
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00:31:54 <oerjan> there are some entries that have both
00:31:57 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
00:31:59 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
00:32:50 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; find . -type l -print0 | xargs -0 ls -ld
00:32:52 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Aug 13 11:11 ./canary -> ../canary \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Aug 29 00:25 ./equal -> equal \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Apr 15 07:51 ./issue -> .doorstop \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 4 Apr 15 07:52 ./koen_ -> koen \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 24 Apr 15 07:52 ./perpetuum mobile -> perpetual motion machine \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Aug 13 11:11 .
00:33:57 <int-e> `` ls -ld wisdom/reflection
00:33:58 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Aug 13 11:11 wisdom/reflection -> /proc/self/cmdline
00:35:09 <oerjan> i surely thought the symbolic links would have been killed off (they don't survive `reverts well either)
00:36:25 <int-e> `? roujo's relevant info
00:36:26 <HackEgo> That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of.
00:36:57 <int-e> this one made me stop and wonder... how big is the smallest natural number that you've never read or heard in your life?
00:46:14 <stalem> int-e: if i knew that, my head would collapse into a tiny black hole
00:53:12 <shachaf> mauris: https://gist.github.com/ion1/5957723 hth
00:55:39 <zzo38> I don't know because such thing is difficult to remember, and then it would probably be wrong after that anyways
00:56:41 <int-e> stalem: right, but I'm really looking for a statistical basis for an estimate.
00:59:52 <int-e> And I believe there's good reason to expect the number to be fairly low (somewhere under 10000) because we have a tendency to round numbers larger than a few hundred.
01:00:57 <stalem> i'm probably understanding this wrongly. the way i see it, if i knew which number it wasn't, it's suddenly no longer the smallest big number i _haven't_ heard or seen
01:01:04 * int-e is discounting raw computer output (not summarized by humans)
01:01:23 <stalem> lest the discovery of said number then imposes the epiphany of which number it is
01:03:05 <int-e> stalem: which is why I'm not asking for a precise answer.
01:03:40 <stalem> well i know it's over a googolplex
01:03:58 <stalem> so i guess a googolplex + 1 is my answer hth
01:04:03 <int-e> you must be very old
01:04:10 * stalem hopes he's doing the hth thing right
01:06:29 <int-e> Because even if you read numbers really fast... say 10 per second... without sleep... in a hundred years... you can read 32 billion (10^9) numbers. So some of the first 33 billion numbers must certainly be missing.
01:07:23 <stalem> no wait a minute, rereading the question i think i've got it really really wrong
01:07:45 <stalem> sorry it's getting late, i'm not sure i can provide you with a sensible answer really hah
01:08:00 <stalem> yes backwards is a suitable expression
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01:08:34 <stalem> i have a tendency for that nowadays it seems
01:08:43 <int-e> It's really a question to be contemplated rather than actually answered.
01:09:14 <stalem> yeah, i think i actually will once i've rested
01:09:40 <oerjan> the answer is 10893, no wait 11050, no wait ...
01:09:57 <int-e> oerjan: you'll grow tired of this game soon enough
01:10:15 <oerjan> faster than you'd expect
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01:38:23 <oren> if s and t are strings
01:38:37 <oren> s+t is their concatenation
01:38:59 <oren> s-t is s with all instances of t removed
01:40:05 <oren> s/t is s split on each instance of t
01:41:33 <shachaf> p. sure s*t should be concatenation hth
01:42:24 <oren> by that logic then, if A is an array, A*t is a single string with each member of A separated with t
01:43:20 <oren> ["foo","bar","baz"]*"," = "foo,bar,baz"
01:43:47 <oren> "foo,bar,baz"/"," = ["foo","bar","baz"]
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01:53:55 <stalem> oren: but what if B is another array of strings and you do A*B?
01:54:58 <stalem> would that be a single string of every member of A separated by each member of B?
01:55:57 <stalem> such that ["foo","bar"]*[",","."] = "foo,barfoo.bar" ?
02:02:14 <mauris> oren: that is how Array * String works in Ruby!
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02:02:48 <mauris> (and GolfScript extended the pattern to Array / String like you did)
02:06:32 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 48m 9s ago: The saucepan is also ancient hth
02:06:49 <boily> a saucepancient, if you will.
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03:17:33 <zzo38> How can you use the CSS :before and :after selectors with <IMG> tags?
03:20:27 <zzo38> I want to be able to replace a picture with some text by using a CSS code
03:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43944&oldid=43894 * Rdococ * (+113) /* Computational class up for debate */
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05:28:35 <newsham> other than "(x x)(x x).xʎ"
05:28:56 <HackEgo> [U+028E LATIN SMALL LETTER TURNED Y]
05:29:01 <mauris> it's the spanish ll sound
05:29:25 <newsham> IPA loves to mangle existing letter shapes
05:29:26 <coppro> a voiced lateral approximant, according to unicode
05:30:20 <mauris> think /l/ but don't actually block off any airflow with your tongue
05:31:04 <newsham> is it ok if i actually block air while i'm thinking of this?
05:31:11 <coppro> according to IPA it's a palatal approximant specifically
05:32:12 <coppro> it's also the American "lli" in "million" apparently, in some areas
05:36:14 <myname> champagner should be more known, i guess
05:43:34 <oren> I finally got a score above 100 million
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05:55:17 <coppro> that's not a very high score if you're playing poker with zimbabwe dollars
05:55:39 <zzo38> What is it the score in?
05:58:05 <zzo38> Even if you do play poker though it should probably be with poker chips (if you have any)
06:05:51 <zzo38> How do I program what error code Apache will response for some file? I want to make /favicon.ico to result in 410 instead of 404
06:05:54 <newsham> blah, my disjunctivitis is acting up again
06:12:23 <oren> it isn't very good but it is progress
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06:32:28 <Sgeo> shachaf, oerjan, wonder if the IFCC blocked Vaarsuvius from telling Roy not to destroy the gate is so that Hel could make this move, are Hel and IFCC co-operating in any way?
06:36:06 <zzo38> As I had expected, the DVI compresses much better than the PDF (although the PDF is already compressed, but even then it is much larger than the compressed size of a DVI file)
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06:46:01 <oerjan> Sgeo: i also wondered about that
06:46:09 <oerjan> but i'm not assuming it
06:46:37 <shachaf> oerjan: what's your prediction twh
06:46:58 <shachaf> oerjan: By the way, even if Veldrina disappears presumably there would still be a tie.
06:47:01 <oerjan> after a few attempts, my predictions don't seem that good
06:47:43 <shachaf> Because you have one set of gods voting no and one set voting yes (with the demigods).
06:48:03 <oerjan> right, so then they'll have to look at the tie-breaking for _that_
06:48:42 <shachaf> Funny that an individual northern god has more influence than a whole pantheon.
06:49:13 <oerjan> however, Hel would already know about the snarl before the IFCC did
06:49:33 <oerjan> at least its existence
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06:49:41 <shachaf> Who's to say they didn't know about it already?
06:49:56 <oerjan> well it was pretty implied sabine told them
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06:50:22 <shachaf> They haven't been known to be particularly forthcoming about what they already know.
06:50:47 <oerjan> indeed, they are uncharacterically competent for villains
06:52:23 <oerjan> i don't think it's meaningful to speculate
06:52:54 <oerjan> vaarsuvius tried to guess and it didn't make sense to him why they would
06:53:16 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, a gendered pronoun from you, in this situation?
06:54:19 <oerjan> i guess i don't really find vaarsuvius very androgynous, really
06:55:27 <oerjan> also, it seems like the IFCC would _not_ be cooperating with the goblin god
06:55:41 <oerjan> since that one _wants_ access to an undamaged gate
06:56:52 <shachaf> goblins for the goblin god
06:58:28 <oerjan> also, i wouldn't be surprised if redcloak is deceived about what that god actually wants
06:58:49 <shachaf> What would be the motivation?
06:59:01 <oerjan> although i haven't read any of the extra oots books
06:59:38 <izabera> what if you take a c-like language and recursion is allowed but you only allow global variables and the only loop form is for (x in list) { }
06:59:42 <izabera> is it still turing complete?
06:59:50 <oerjan> shachaf: well miko claimed the god just wants to annihilate everything, and redcloak said she didn't know what she was talking about. but what if she's right?
07:00:14 <myname> izabera: wouldn't that be the while language?
07:00:41 <izabera> oh ofc, someone else alreeady invented it
07:00:51 <myname> afaik a single endless loop (which can be made by appending to list every time) is enough to be tc
07:01:15 <myname> with if and the likes, of course
07:01:28 <myname> you cannot append to a list?
07:01:44 <izabera> i mean you could but let's say no
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07:02:14 <oerjan> was just about to link
07:02:18 <myname> could i do for (x in list) { do something; list = [1,1]; }?
07:02:20 <izabera> myname: let's say that when you start the for loop, the elements are expanded so they don't reference the variables anymore, they're just a list and it's finite
07:02:46 <oerjan> i suppose that may not mean quite that
07:03:02 <myname> well, for (x in list) { for (x in list) { ... } list = [1,1] }
07:03:13 <myname> espanding on the inner loop is no longer a problem
07:03:36 <shachaf> oerjan: please refer to panel 6 of page 2 of comic 406 hth
07:03:43 <izabera> myname: you can only expand it a finite number of times
07:03:58 <izabera> == the number of iterations of the outer for loop
07:04:39 <myname> you could get exponential growth, but i'm not quite sure about infinity
07:08:58 <myname> izabera: ifnrecorsuion is allowed, why donkt you just main() { ...; main(); }
07:10:04 <myname> the for could be used to model if, in case that's not present
07:12:58 <myname> well, in reality i cannot imagine why you should expand lists at the beginning of for loops
07:18:45 <shachaf> oerjan: but i suppose it's possible
07:24:25 <izabera> myname: it already happens, one example is awk
07:24:50 <oerjan> lists could be immutable, too
07:26:41 <izabera> `awk BEGIN { a[0]=1; i=10; for (x in a) { a[i++]=1234 ; print i, x , a[x] } for (x in a) { a[i++]=1234 ; print i, x , a[x] } }
07:26:43 <HackEgo> 11 0 1 \ 12 10 1234 \ 13 0 1
07:27:28 <izabera> ^ the first loop runs once, the second runs twice, both are adding elements to that list
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08:38:02 <oerjan> @tell augur <augur> i will never be icelandic! <-- don't worry, the declension is all wrong, being one of those rare icelandic words that _don't_ end in -r hth
08:39:35 <HackEgo> aspiracoin tinecoin rposisteparkcoin 21321acoin ogelcoin fertcoin raintendibcoin v--coin proceryncoin aeolicoin cholbercoin hcbcoin rebesyzcoin recodcoin omecoin monodcoin selcoin trasscoin stafncoin biocoin
08:42:32 <HackEgo> xandcoin ><>coin wikcoin nybergcoin produnchcoin unsburcoin formentcoin sukucoin arcacoin bytagcoin focadcoin wakcoin boathcoin aviacoin noilancoin bthopperloadcoin preturgcoin zethacoin clacoin linecoin
08:43:17 <HackEgo> phffe7coin malculocoin rndcoin trolacoin javarcoin sockzcoin infulbrearcoin excogncoin 6ixcoin blazlecoin *wcoin miiendacoin piet-qcoin memocoin lkjcoin nomilezcoin dnncoin petecoin raaluaredgecoin arghcoin
08:47:32 <oerjan> the coin for desperate people
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09:25:38 <ashl> why all the coins
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09:33:34 <int-e> ashl: because there are too many cryptocurrencies, so it has become hard to come up with new names for them
09:34:24 <ashl> perhaps it's time to stop inventing new cryptocurrencies? :)
09:35:06 <int-e> perhaps, but #esoteric is the wrong place for doing that
09:41:58 <HackEgo> ordcoin tvtcoin llacoin irpetschopolcoin omnacoin slikeralikcoin actumcoin alpurecoin regulacoin wilsoncoin isoufepulcoin cortycoin crossancoin aurcoin boncoin mailcoin sultemphaecoin exhilocoin comiscariancoin seecoin
09:42:14 <HackEgo> bficoin thuecoin chefcoin l33tcoin bitwimpcoin poga-intycoin owlcoin recursecoin vercoin hypersetlambdacoin conveyorcoin hexcoin aeolboloncoin reverginecoin qdeqlcoin emmentropycoin binarycoin ztcoin parcoin brainscoin
09:42:30 <HackEgo> nicentlauehnecoin chrachmukholdcoin periedescecoin eostraldeyklcoin heetlickercoin lacementerriscleaguecoin gkeitermanisekhjalocoin expedgeregocoin chatenticcoin propotaliercoin minulordarchaponcoin devitizationecoin bliguerineditinantlycoin dnquenourycoin biberjeeticoin exuallopporicoin prochen
09:42:34 <HackEgo> vancoin zlccoin tarcoin jencoin inccoin marcoin envocoin silcoin honcoin anocoin isatocoin flavatcoin baicoin aelcoin maccoin uaucoin tzvcoin faccoin homcoin cavcoin
09:42:40 <HackEgo> gnicoin nitcoin katcoin vincoin velcoin loscoin concoin erbcoin concoin forcoin aftcoin balcoin borcoin ruscoin rulcoin crucoin brocoin argcoin inscoin descoin
09:42:45 <HackEgo> bowleycoin xultaventcoin chiencessimittcoin cbycoin electawcoin deropredichsaycoin afarminachecoin dightvelyancoin exillecontatcoin haloitcoin waterinamclemcoin woodsteratcoin exteentriocoin unrationcoin arklimmtcoin aleodontriccoin ixokraftilledcoin cncharatockcoin loquentercoin twardc
09:42:58 <HackEgo> sunsettenitermodkcoin stualicefferthtigcoin plangkundissitueenacoin implaulencurigerecoin soutreutschnetcoin mallamessedeencoin lyoulgaterredcoin qughtecheedeliancoin ssaffeldometeerafielcoin slientariialilitycoin
09:43:00 <ashl> what is eng-1M
09:43:11 <ashl> all english words plus like 500,000 non-words?
09:43:31 <b_jonas> ashl: it's not really a dictionary, but some probabilistic model made from English texts
09:43:45 <b_jonas> it's prepared earlier, and words dynamically generates words from it
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10:04:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Tuzepoito * New user account
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11:18:43 <ais523> huh, bizarre; spam claiming to be from someone with the same name as me, and given the rest of the message and the address it was sent to, I'm pretty sure it happened to pick my name at random rather than knowing who I am
11:18:58 <ais523> I guess having a common name means that something like that is statistically going to happen /eventually/
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12:02:12 <ais523> I seem to remember sending messages to people's alternate nicks in the past
12:02:20 <ais523> to see how long it would be before they were read
12:02:58 <boilyphone> I happen to be on my phone, at the airport.
12:08:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sp3000 * New user account
12:09:54 <stalem> Coffee is love. Coffee is life.
12:10:08 <ashl> where are you going, boilyphone
12:10:15 <ais523> I'm guessing… not a spambot
12:10:36 * ais523 looks at the spam filter out of curiosity
12:12:04 <ais523> huh, looks like no spambot's got past the CAPTCHA since January
12:12:24 <ais523> maybe the people who were using human CAPTCHA-breakers gave up on our site, because the spam they were told to post doesn't know how to newlines
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12:21:10 <stalem> @tell zzo38 first iteration of lang generation script done! gonna try and write up a desciption and you can have a look
12:33:36 <mroman> `run echo fnärd | loudly
12:33:52 <mroman> poor unicode support .
12:45:26 <stalem> could anybody recommend a good article on writing a proper lexer/parser?
12:45:33 <stalem> my current approach is a disaster
12:47:32 <ashl> that is a rather broad question
12:47:55 <ashl> which language are you using
12:49:27 <ais523> in the sense of "they work and do pretty much what you'd expect"
12:49:32 <ais523> they are a pain to use on Windows
12:52:21 <ashl> isn't everything? :P
12:52:27 <ais523> them more so than others
12:52:51 <b_jonas> ais523: huh? in what way do they break on windows?
12:53:18 <b_jonas> oh, you mean if you want to actually run lex/yacc on windows, rather than just build its output
12:53:36 <ais523> b_jonas: they don't break, they're just a pain to install and get workign
13:01:41 <stalem> so as i feared it depends on the case which approach is best?
13:02:08 <ashl> everything always does
13:02:17 <int-e> too much information
13:02:33 <stalem> true ashl i forgot abuot relativity
13:02:56 <stalem> i have much to learn still
13:05:14 <stalem> int-e no it was the warlock crediter
13:06:18 <stalem> water closets are so impractical. who wants to wear soaked clothes?
13:06:43 <int-e> and how did they get wet in the first place...
13:06:55 <int-e> ...I see no reason to withdraw my objection.
13:06:59 <stalem> by being in the water closet obviously
13:07:22 <stalem> i prefer to keep my clothes in a dry closet
13:07:38 <stalem> or air closet, either way works, AC/DC you know
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13:51:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * YourDeathIsComing * New user account
13:54:30 <stalem> three accounts in four hours hm
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14:02:11 <ais523> they don't seem like spambot names though
14:02:20 <ais523> maybe esolangs.org got linked from somewhere it normally isn't linked from
14:02:34 <stalem> i guess thats possible
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14:02:56 <stalem> there's no way to see from where users come to the wiki?
14:03:25 <ais523> server admins can see it, I'm not one of those though
14:03:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Print "deadfish"]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43945 * YourDeathIsComing * (+576) Created page with "Print "Deadfish" is an little extension of the [[Deadfish]] programming language. It adds two new commands: The "h" commands which ends the program and the "a" command which p..."
14:03:49 <ais523> I can theoretically see where edits come from, but I'm not supposed to except if I'm trying to find a spambot's IP to ban it
14:04:38 <stalem> fair enough. i guess i also got my answer with that new page hah
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14:14:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Print "deadfish"]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43946&oldid=43945 * YourDeathIsComing * (+6)
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14:16:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Print "deadfish"]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43947&oldid=43946 * YourDeathIsComing * (+133)
14:39:21 <ashl> anything on the news this mroing?
14:42:24 <oren> 1000000000 sheeple are now on facebook
14:43:10 <oren> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/08/28/new_low_point_for_humanity_a_billion_log_on_to_facebook_in_one_day/
14:43:40 <oren> I do indeed have facebook
14:44:01 <oren> however, I can say that I haven't logged on in a few months
14:44:28 <oren> typically I get all the stuff from facebook thru my email
14:46:39 <ais523> err, a Facebook account
14:46:49 <ais523> I also have the website blocked but know how to override the block, just never have seen a reason to
14:46:55 -!- dipperswett has changed nick to tswett.
14:47:28 <ais523> tswett: what does the dipperswett nick refer to?
14:48:05 <tswett> My nickname at the gaming store I go to. Dipper Swett.
14:48:15 <ashl> blocked by what?
14:48:17 <tswett> Which in turn comes from Gravity Falls.
14:48:28 <ais523> ashl: browser preferences
14:49:02 * int-e idly wonders whether ais523 has his own web browser as well
14:49:09 <ais523> int-e: I set the preferences
14:49:31 <ais523> I haven't written my own browser (unless you count the occasional manual use of netcat/telnet), but I do use several browsers configured for different purposes
14:49:41 <ais523> my primary one is pretty locked down to disable things that sites do that annoy me
14:49:46 <int-e> does the browser have an ad blocker built in or is it some add-on?
14:49:48 <ashl> int-e: as well as what? :p
14:49:58 <ais523> many websites blocked, no javascript, no animated GIFs…
14:50:03 <ais523> int-e: you're thinking of zzo38
14:50:11 <ashl> ais523: is it actually usable?
14:50:26 <ashl> i was thinking of turning off js by default but assumed everything would stop working
14:50:27 <ais523> zzo38 uses a web browser I'd never heard of at the time called, IIRC, Vonkeror
14:50:36 <ais523> ashl: several things do but most of them, you don't care about
14:50:39 <int-e> sorry, you're both in the three-letter-followed-by-a-number category.
14:50:46 <tswett> If you click on a link that leads to Wikia, ais523's browser automatically blocks whatever site the link was on.
14:50:52 * int-e is awful with names
14:51:06 <int-e> (in real life as well, but faces do help)
14:51:08 <ais523> tswett: actually no, although that would be amusing
14:51:19 <ais523> I did try to write a Firefox extension at one point to add "?useskin=monobook" at the end of Wikia URLs
14:51:22 <ais523> but gave up eventually
14:51:25 <ais523> oh, I block cookies too
14:51:35 <ais523> or rather, put them on manual approval
14:51:36 <int-e> maybe I should switch to a graphical IRC client and assign avatars to the nicks
14:51:50 <ais523> mostly to prove to myself that when websites claim to need cookies, they're lying
14:52:33 <ashl> ais523: which browser do you use that allows you to do this? :P
14:52:44 <int-e> hmm. adblock, noscript, cookiemonster. I should try out ghostery
14:53:17 <ais523> ashl: Firefox + some extensions
14:53:21 <zzo38> I have Firefox and had to change the settings and other stuff a lot in order to improve on the default settings, and still isn't as perfect
14:53:24 <ais523> I use Chromium to access sites that are shut down by the Firefox restrictions
14:53:31 <ais523> mostly because most of them are Google sites
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14:54:44 <int-e> ais523: are you also annoyed that they implemented an in-browser view for the preferences (fortunately it can still be switched off, but for how long?)
14:55:00 <ais523> int-e: Chromium? that seems mostly like a UI decision
14:55:20 <int-e> zzo38: I meant to ask you.
14:55:22 <zzo38> Involving many things, including SQL database schemas, file permissions, and even hexediting, but also scripts, CSS, extensions, about:config stuff, and many of the built-in settings
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14:59:27 <b_jonas> int-e: the in-browser view is a good thing, it means the option dialog isn't modal, and you can put it in a separate window anyway. the part where it has an android/windows8-like interface with no OK/Cancel button and switches that are too easy to change accidentally and then you can't find out what you changed is bad.
15:00:34 <zzo38> For example remove all of the close-tab buttons, as well as increasing the width of tabs but decreasing their height, removing all toolbar buttons (including stop/reload/go), I put back the status-bar (which contains the Stylish, Policeman, and download buttons; Greasemonkey can be found in the Tools menu instead), as well as stuff in userChrome.js userChrome.css userContent.css
15:00:59 <zzo38> (Many things there are no extensions for, so I can use the userChrome stuff instead)
15:01:31 <int-e> b_jonas: it broke the hotkeys inside the preferences dialog (which isn't really modal anyway, perhaps because my WM ignores some hints)
15:02:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, yhat's also the bad part of the android-like interface
15:02:25 <b_jonas> int-e: eg. I hate how commands in windows ribbon bars don't reveal the hotkeys for those commands, so the hotkeys are hard to discover
15:02:34 <int-e> Oh I'm also enabling the menu bar in new profiles. So that's another change I'm not suffering much from yet.
15:02:48 <b_jonas> I have some success because I know from earlier windows how hotkeys are usually layed out, so I can find them by trying
15:03:46 <zzo38> (I used userContent.css for global stuff and Stylish for stuff specific to each site; currently the only thing in my userContent.css is a rule for <blink>
15:04:56 <int-e> somehow, userChrome.css is much more important to me
15:05:30 <zzo38> Yes, to me too, I have many more things in userChrome.css
15:05:37 <int-e> things like tabmodalprompt { background: transparent !important } (no, I don't want my content grayed out just because you're displaying a dialog, thank you)
15:06:47 <quintopia> tgat is a good idea. i might add that
15:07:23 <quintopia> does it prevent all websites graying their content?
15:07:55 <int-e> no, just the (javascript mostly) dialogs, unfortunately
15:07:57 <ais523> quintopia: it'll only be websites that use the specific name "tabmodalprompt"
15:08:13 <ais523> but apparently it's a common one because it's used by some major framework
15:08:18 <int-e> in fact, userChrome.css shouldn't affect web-sites at all?
15:08:24 <int-e> it's for xul, right?
15:08:31 <zzo38> I don't have that, but here is my userChrome.css: http://sprunge.us/cCDM
15:08:33 <ais523> oh, right, this would be Firefox's "let's use the DOM to render dialogs" thing
15:09:18 <quintopia> i want a script to stop sites graying content when displaying ads
15:09:55 <int-e> http://sprunge.us/hPLf ... interestingly, little overlap. but I think I'll steal the transition things.
15:10:57 <int-e> In fact, no overlap at all. I'm mostly using it to disable UI elements that I'm not using.
15:11:20 <zzo38> I have the new tab button hidden using Classic Theme Restorer, so I do not need to disable it in userChrome.css
15:11:48 <zzo38> Actually many of the things you have disabled in userChrome.css, I was able to remove using Classic Theme Restorer.
15:12:29 <int-e> interesting, I've never heard of that one
15:13:02 <zzo38> But some things cannot be removed in that way, so I put them into userChrome.css (I didn't know about userChrome.css until after Classic Theme Restorer was already installed actually, which anyways does other things I want too)
15:14:46 <zzo38> The "navigation[value=gopher-nav]" line has to do with Overbite, which displays a notification that you are viewing a text document; such a notification isn't very useful (it can be seen from the URL as well as just from the content) so I removed it.
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15:19:33 <zzo38> And my userContent.css is: http://sprunge.us/HPTU
15:20:26 <zzo38> And I also have the userChrome.js (which requires an extension to function), which is: http://sprunge.us/GLgF
15:22:11 <zzo38> See if you find any of these thing useful to you? Or other opinion of it?
15:24:03 <zzo38> Actually I think I noticed a mistake now, it doesn't enable JavaScripts for about and file and chrome schemes like it is supposed to do, it instead just bypasses it, it look like
15:25:38 <int-e> the "view source" hook looks interesting. I'm not sure what you're doing with the navigatiojn bar
15:27:12 <zzo38> Causes it to treat text entered into the location bar as relative; putting a colon at front restores the original function so that you can use user-defined prefixes such as "w" for Wikipedia and so on.
15:28:06 <zzo38> The window.losslessDecodeURI is made to prevent it from changing percent-encodings into other characters
15:29:51 <zzo38> The last part (unknownContentType) does more than adding the view-source option, it also changes the display so that it will now display the actual MIME type and URL rather than just "This is a C file" or whatever
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16:01:46 <stalem> zzo38: oh the annoyancee. when trying to extend the functionality of my lang gen script i realized i might as well use lisp to do what i need
16:19:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * T9anef * New user account
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16:29:47 <stalem> (def lisp (+ "lots of" "irritating parentheses"))
16:30:01 <stalem> no wait that's not right
16:30:43 <stalem> but the programming language lisp?
16:31:23 <stalem> it could probably do what the language i tried designing would do
16:32:01 <stalem> so i had to scrap the idea
16:33:22 <zzo38> What stuff did you have?
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16:40:34 <stalem> i compiled my notes here http://pastebin.com/SDT3n8Qq
16:41:04 <oren> 2730 characters!!!111
16:41:18 <stalem> the second iteration works and is implemented, but lack the features i want. i'm currently working on something that very much resembles lisp but has a few key differences
16:41:43 <stalem> what really? where did you see that?
16:42:29 <oren> oh, I was scrolled up
16:42:46 <oren> Your notes look like lisp, indeed
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16:46:01 <oren> Although, being similar to another language never stopped C++
16:47:27 <stalem> yeah and honestly i'm not trying to make anything new with this
16:47:41 <lambdabot> LOWI 291620Z 07009KT 040V100 9999 FEW080 31/17 Q1020 NOSIG
16:47:53 <stalem> just domain specific, to meet my needs
16:50:09 <stalem> and when i think about it, just being syntactically similar to another language doesn't mean it's functionally similar
16:50:28 <ais523> stalem: @metar checks the weather at an airport
16:50:38 <ais523> the result's somewhat hard to read
16:51:02 <stalem> haha yeah it mostly looks like pseudo gibberish
16:51:28 <ais523> need the four letter code, not the three letter ode
16:51:38 <ais523> there are multiple airport naming standards for some reason
16:52:05 <zzo38> FurryScript also has a few similar features to what you described
16:52:16 <lambdabot> KLAX 291553Z 23003KT 9SM FEW270 26/19 A2990 RMK AO2 SLP122 T02560194 $
16:52:24 <zzo38> That's how you do it
16:52:26 <stalem> agh why wont the world just kongregate under one single standard
16:52:33 <ais523> lambdabot: is KLAX = LAX, or is it somewhere else?
16:52:42 <zzo38> Yes, I would prefer the four-letter (ICAO) codes
16:52:50 <lambdabot> CYVR 291626Z 09016G29KT 15SM FEW009 SCT013 OVC025 17/15 A2949 RMK SF2SC1SC5 PRESRR SLP986 DENSITY ALT 700FT
16:53:23 <ais523> a while ago I learned that UK phone number area codes are actually meaningful, rather than arbitrary, in most cases
16:53:33 <ais523> (a few of the newer ones are just arbitrary numbers though)
16:53:39 <stalem> zzo38: furryscript seems to be of a different domain right, if i haven't gotten all the semantics wrong.
16:53:48 <ais523> e.g. Birmingham = 0121, the 2 = B for Birmingham
16:53:56 <stalem> though i never intended to be inspired by furryscript, just the concept
16:54:07 <zzo38> It is of a different domain but there is some overlaps
16:54:20 <ais523> and Birmingham gets a single-letter code because it's so large
16:54:24 <zzo38> ais523: O, I didn't know that, but I don't know much about UK telephone number anyways
16:55:04 <stalem> ais523: that's pretty neat actually. makes it easy to decode area codes
16:55:13 <ais523> here, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dialling_codes_in_the_United_Kingdom lists them all along with the letter translations
16:55:17 <ais523> the last digit's an arbitrary disambiguator
16:55:28 <ais523> and the 01 at the start is part of the syntax
16:55:40 <stalem> zzo38: what domain would furryscript bnelong to then?
16:56:03 <stalem> i'd really liek to get a good understanding of the different domains
16:56:18 <zzo38> Random text generation I suppose
16:56:31 <zzo38> I don't really know good understanding of all possible different domains either actually
16:56:58 <zzo38> Although it has functions to do some other stuff too
16:57:04 <stalem> fair enough haha. maybe one of the elders will come along and categorize them
16:57:07 <ais523> haha, most of the 0155? numbers are in Wales because of LL
16:57:26 * stalem maybe thinks functional procedural then?
16:57:57 <stalem> though i reckon functional has a completely different meaning
16:59:23 <ais523> "functional" is used by different people to mean different things
17:00:14 <zzo38> stalem: Do you know Haskell programming?
17:00:36 <stalem> I do not. in reality i don't know that many languages actually
17:01:28 <stalem> why do you ask btw? in the meantime, i gotta start with the cooking, i'll be back later on
17:06:45 <ais523> Haskell is one of the less controversially functional languages
17:06:56 <ais523> (Agda is probably the least controversially functional?)
17:13:19 <ais523> quintopia: just drifting along, mostly
17:13:30 <ais523> current things occupying my time are work, computer games, web of lies 2
17:13:54 <ais523> Tux Racer, most recently
17:14:08 <ais523> hardware compiler development
17:14:25 <ais523> sorry, /extreme/ tux racer
17:14:36 <stalem> ais523: oh i see. i'll have to take a look later
17:14:40 <ais523> my review of extreme tux racer: the graphics is bad, the level design is questionable, the UI is awkward and could perhaps do with a tutorial
17:14:48 <ais523> however, the physics works really well and can make almost any level fun
17:15:13 <shachaf> Oh, I was thinking of ppracer.
17:15:27 <ais523> shachaf: etracer's a fork of ppracer, it seems
17:15:36 <ais523> quintopia: FTL, Neverwinter Nights
17:15:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43948&oldid=43738 * YourDeathIsComing * (+262)
17:15:56 <ais523> I've held the speedrun WR on Neverwinter Nights on occasion but people better at the game than me took it up
17:16:01 <shachaf> Have you played _Bureaucracy_?
17:16:04 <quintopia> hmm. i have FTL. howzit rate among roguelikes?
17:16:07 <shachaf> I read an article about it the other day.
17:16:19 <ais523> so I mostly do glitchfinding and routing for it nowadays
17:16:25 <ais523> shachaf: I've seen a complete playthough of it
17:16:36 <ais523> that sort of game is more fun to read spoilers for than actually play
17:16:46 <ais523> quintopia: core mechanics are good, some of the balance decisions are questionable
17:16:54 <ais523> I've beaten it with every ship on Hard, by this point
17:17:01 <ais523> then I moved onto Easy
17:17:41 <quintopia> whats a better roguelike? whats a worse?
17:17:46 <shachaf> Somehow I didn't get very far in FTL.
17:18:00 <ais523> quintopia: do you mean in terms of being a better game, or being better at being a roguelike
17:18:19 <ais523> FTL's only sort-of a roguelike
17:18:30 <ais523> it's balanced like one and it uses permadeath+random generation
17:18:35 <quintopia> but so are most of the ones ive played
17:18:55 <ais523> but it violates one of the major roguelike rules (use your game mechanics for everything, don't just have situations decided by cutscene)
17:19:28 <shachaf> What is the advantage of permadeath?
17:19:57 <zzo38> I don't like cutscenes anyways, whether or not it is the roguelike game
17:20:36 <zzo38> Just display a screen of text (scrollable if necessary)
17:20:37 <ais523> shachaf: perma-consequences (i.e. no rewinding the game) allows you to introduce game mechanics that don't work in its absence
17:20:44 <ais523> such as choices with unpredictable outcomes
17:20:45 <quintopia> were it not for permadeath what would be the point of RG levels?
17:20:51 <ais523> permadeath is the easiest way to implement perma-consequences
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17:21:59 <shachaf> Is it worth the frustration?
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17:23:36 <zzo38> If you don't like permadeath you can make a shell-script to remove it, maybe
17:23:41 <quintopia> another advantage is you always have to be playing, you cant ever assume anything. if you had checkpoints, youd know what was coming and could switch your strategy mind off until you get back to where you were. if it were about remembering what happened before and deciding how to survive, itd be a puzzle-platformer
17:24:03 <quintopia> the frustration is a feature not a bug
17:24:45 <shachaf> Whereas with permadeath, if there's a hard part in the middle of the game, you have to spend hours getting to that hard part each time before dying and having to start over.
17:25:02 <ais523> shachaf: IMO games with permadeath should frontload difficulty because of that
17:25:30 <zzo38> I believe the permadeath feature is good, but I did make the suggestion just in case you did not like it
17:25:33 <ais523> in FTL, the start of the game is the hardest, and you can die later on but you can normally tell you're doomed a long time beforehand
17:25:41 <ais523> except that the very end of the game is much harder than the rest
17:25:51 <quintopia> unless they are about the rising dread and moments of sheer terror
17:25:53 <shachaf> I guess this is true of NetHack too.
17:26:14 <ais523> shachaf: yep, NetHack's difficulty is frontloaded, arguably too frontloaded
17:26:16 <shachaf> One of the things that Crawl people advertise is "hard all the way through, not only at the beginning".
17:26:29 <ais523> shachaf: they might advertise it but it isn't actually true
17:26:52 <ais523> Crawl's difficulty is also front-loaded
17:27:45 <shachaf> I like the adventure game design philosophy that it's impossible to make the game unwinnable.
17:28:04 <shachaf> But of course that's mostly used in games that are pretty much deterministic.
17:28:09 <ais523> shachaf: that's actually not that common among adventure games, it's more of a recent thing
17:28:15 <ais523> actually, one advantage of permadeath is that unwinnable states are less bad
17:28:22 <ais523> because it's equivalent to dying
17:28:33 <ais523> whereas in a game with a normal save system, saving in an unwinnable state is much /worse/ than dying
17:28:35 <shachaf> ais523: It was true in e.g. Money Island. Not all that recent.
17:28:51 <ais523> shachaf: it happens in some older games too but it's become more common over time
17:28:58 <quintopia> i have yet to start the monkey islands
17:29:07 <shachaf> ais523: In the Discworld game, you had two "passes" into the castle per act, or something like that. If you used both of them too early, you'd be stuck much later in the game.
17:29:30 <shachaf> It was very frustrating, especially if you overwrote your earlier save file.
17:29:32 <ais523> shachaf: pretty much every old text adventure is like that
17:29:34 <quintopia> adventure games arent my forte, but ill play them anyway sometimes
17:29:55 <ais523> there's a good TV Tropes article about this but I won't link it because TV Tropes
17:30:00 <shachaf> So the trouble is that you can't tell that you're in an unwinnable state.
17:30:21 <shachaf> So it seems worse than -- oh, now I see what you meant.
17:30:23 <zzo38> I have prefer to make, you can just make multiple save files, so in case you get into the unwinnable situation then you can restore a different save file.
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17:32:33 <shachaf> I'm not sure I really buy the argument.
17:32:56 <shachaf> What makes an unreachable state in a permadeath palatable is that the game is short enough and/or has frontloaded enough difficulty that you don't mind restarting.
17:32:57 <ais523> with FTL, there are very few situations outside combat that are unwinnable with perfect luck
17:33:04 <shachaf> But all that does is restrict you from making a big game.
17:33:12 <ais523> but many, many situations where your chance of being able to complete the game with perfect skill is less than 100%
17:33:37 <ais523> shachaf: deaths in permadeath games are just as unpalatable as unwinnable states, though, and for the same reason
17:33:47 <ais523> IMO the correct solution is to give players a chance to bail out and try again later
17:39:03 <zzo38> I wanted to make SQL-roguelike game
17:42:08 <oren> In touhou, if you lose you can continue where you were, but your score is reset to 0
17:42:31 <zzo38> There are many other games that do that too
17:46:35 <oren> most modern games don't tend to feature a "score" as a central thing
17:47:04 <shachaf> _Enlightenment_ was a good one-room text-based adventure game.
17:47:07 <stalem> is there a game where you're reincarnated as you die? as in your decisions and skills etc determine the basis of the reincarnated char?
17:51:41 <oren> In Tactics Ogre: the Knight of Lodis, a turn based strategy game, you can ressurect a dead character in various ways, including as a zombie or an angel, which makes them retain their stats
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18:06:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43949&oldid=43948 * YourDeathIsComing * (+547)
18:07:02 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/118130140.png
18:12:16 <oren> for whatever reason stage 4 is always a problem
18:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YourDeathIsComing]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43950 * YourDeathIsComing * (+146) Created page with "Hi, I´m YourDeathIsComing a created the esoteric programming language [[Print "deadfish"]].</br> I also made an batch implementation of deadfish."
18:14:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YourDeathIsComing]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43951&oldid=43950 * YourDeathIsComing * (+1)
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18:43:32 <zzo38> Sorry there was a short power outage
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19:30:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DoubleFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43953&oldid=40014 * 173.31.84.122 * (+13) /* Examples */
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20:08:32 <S1> good morning
20:09:57 <S1> UGT, you guys!
20:10:32 <ashl> where's it still the morning...
20:12:38 <S1> https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#fst
20:15:21 <ashl> i've never heard of that before
20:15:40 <S1> now you have
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20:48:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GOTO++]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43954&oldid=33647 * Tuzepoito * (+10631) update and development
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21:39:31 <oren> I just got a new CRT tv
21:39:52 <oren> it was on the sidewalk and unattended
21:40:12 <oren> and not nailed down
21:40:32 <oren> yes, works great
21:40:49 <oren> Now I'll have a tv in my room
21:41:01 <ashl> probably someone was just moving it and had to leave it there for a split second and you stole it
21:41:50 <ashl> now they're probably putting out posters imploring people to help find it
21:41:55 <oren> well the next door neighbours will tell me if that's the case, it was in front of their house
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21:45:00 <ashl> maybe they're too distraught to figure out it was you
21:46:42 <tswett> So a while back, someone used the phrase "coffee with butter in". I wouldn't say that phrase, I'd say "coffee with butter in it".
21:47:17 <tswett> But I can say "in" instead of "in it" in some circumstances: for example, "a VCR with a tape in".
21:47:30 <tswett> So that led me to wonder what the rule is for when you can just say "in" rather than "in it".
21:47:36 <tswett> Likewise, when you can just say "on" instead of "on it".
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21:47:51 <oren> I have never seen than
21:48:03 <tswett> You've never seen what?
21:48:08 <oren> also, I have release a new font version ⱠⱡⱢⱣⱤⱥⱦⱧⱨⱩⱪⱫⱬⱭⱮⱯ
21:48:11 <oren> ⱰⱱⱲⱳⱴⱵⱶⱷⱸⱹⱺⱻⱼⱽⱾⱿ
21:48:22 <tswett> I have a guess as to what the rule is.
21:48:22 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/fontdemo.htm
21:48:41 <ashl> what is your guess as to what the rule is
21:48:41 <tswett> You can say "in" or "on" when the object's location is implied by the type of object; otherwise, you have to say "in it" or "on it".
21:49:07 <tswett> If you say "the hat is on", that implies that it's on a person's head. So if you say "the person has a hat on", the hat is on their head.
21:49:24 <tswett> If you say "the person has a hat on them", that implies that the hat is on them *somewhere*, not necessarily on their head.
21:49:55 <tswett> If you say "the batteries are in", that implies that they're in the battery chamber of a battery-powered device. So you can say "this flashlight has batteries in", but not "this cardboard box has batteries in".
21:50:20 <ashl> soudns plausible
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21:52:56 <stalem> zzo38: i'm getting pretty close to finishing the design of my script. would you mind taking a look later and see what you think?
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21:54:15 <zzo38> OK, I may; notify me
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22:04:34 <int-e> tswett: next you'll tell us that when somebody is carrying a torch it might be in their backpack.
22:05:29 <ais523> int-e: to be fair, my interpretation of "carrying a torch" didn't imply it was in their hands
22:05:50 <ais523> and mentally substituted "wielding a torch" to imply it was in the hands, but that'd probably just confuse non-NetHack-players
22:06:43 <int-e> ais523: yeah, the idiomatic phrase has "the" instead of "a", making it harder to misunderstand
22:06:54 <zzo38> Is the torch lit or not?
22:07:07 <ais523> and is it an electric torch or a flaming-fire torch?
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22:07:56 <int-e> (it's lit, it's illuminating the path for the rest of the group. why am I explaining this...)
22:09:52 <zzo38> Whether or not it is electric doesn't seem to have much to do with that though, but you won't carry it in the pack if it is lit either way it seems, if it is not lit you might or might not
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22:19:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43955&oldid=43940 * Martin Büttner * (+217) add new command
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22:21:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Labyrinth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43956&oldid=43955 * Martin Büttner * (-16) /* Commands */
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22:34:24 <tswett> `loudly You can now invoke `loudly like this!
22:34:25 <HackEgo> You can now invoke `loudly like this!
22:36:21 <tswett> `run echo 'But the old way still works, too!' | loudly
22:36:22 <HackEgo> But the old way still works, too!
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22:43:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:123]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43957 * Martin Büttner * (+217) Created page with "The spec seems to be ambiguous as to whether bit 0 or 7 is the least significant one when reading or writing. --~~~~"
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22:49:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:123]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43958&oldid=43957 * Martin Büttner * (+80)
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22:59:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DoubleFuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43959&oldid=43953 * Rdebath * (+6) Refixed formatting and the "hello world" now works
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23:49:54 <zzo38> Now I made Minesweeper game to keep track of the best time and best score and win rate.
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00:10:53 <oren> hellü hppavilion
00:12:22 <oren> what brings you to the chⱥnnel today
00:31:44 <lambdabot> elite <phrase>. Translate English to elitespeak
00:31:52 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
00:32:44 <oerjan> mauris_: Bike hasn't been in this channel in a _long_ time
00:33:03 <oerjan> right now he's not on freenode either
00:33:50 <tswett> Brb, changing my password to that.
00:34:17 <oren> is that the moldovan version of jonathan?
00:34:57 <oren> (where moldova is any country in europe)
00:35:36 <stalem> i'm going to learn to write better parsers and interpreters by writing one for this http://pastebin.com/EkCQi6N9 script i designed
00:36:02 <stalem> what approach do you guys reckon would be best? lex character by character, maybe split and regex matchers or perhaps even a mix of both?
00:36:17 <Melvar> oren: It’s the Lojban version.
00:36:32 <stalem> (any thoughts on the lang itself is welcome)
00:36:54 <stalem> and hi oerjan didnt see you there
00:37:58 <zzo38> I usually write a lexer by scanning each character
00:39:00 <stalem> i guess doing that and putting each atom in an array tree and interpret that?
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00:41:55 <mauris_> parsec is the only thing i know how to write parsers with
00:43:11 <oerjan> (i _know_ how to do it other ways, in theory.)
00:46:32 <stalem> mauris_: i'll look into it
00:54:16 <zzo38> I have written other parser before but have used Parsec and Lemon; I have also once converted a recursive descent parser from C into BASIC (as I had no C compiler on the target computer, nor a disk)
00:58:44 <stalem> well time to hit the hay, i'll sleep on it thanks guys o/
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01:03:15 <oerjan> <stalem> or air closet, either way works, AC/DC you know <-- i just keep them in the same closet as my vacuum hth
01:14:55 <zzo38> I installed the package of "Amoebax" game but I found out that it does not normally let you to set the controls for both players to the same keys, but I found the configuration file and now I can do it anyways, so now I can vers myself; it is difficult because the ghost-block can drop at the different place for each player
01:19:11 <zzo38> Would it be possible for a terminal emulator to fake the "break" function by looking at the termios settings even though normally cannot be used with pseudoterminals?
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01:35:33 <oren> I have invented syllabic dicentiquinquigentimal
01:36:08 <oren> a base 256 number system where each digit has a unique syllable
01:37:29 <oren> er, maybe that should be dicentisexiquingentimal?
01:38:25 <zzo38> OK, did you write down all of their working?
01:38:45 <oren> the high 4 bits are represented by the start consonant
01:38:49 <oren> f p b sp s t d st h k g sk n m l sn
01:39:32 <oren> the low four bits are represented by the vowel and end consonant:
01:39:49 <oren> a i u e o ya yu yo an in un en on yan yun yon
01:40:32 <oren> thus instead of saying eff eff zero zero eff eff
01:40:46 <oren> you can say snyan fa snyan
01:42:03 <zzo38> I think I invented something similar once to encode Japanese alphabets, although not all numbers are valid because Japanese alphabets doesn't have that much.
01:52:43 <tswett> I wonder if it's better for words for digits to be regular or irregular.
01:53:13 <tswett> What's better: "zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine" or "ta, te, ti, to, tu, ba, be, bi, bo, bu"?
01:54:57 <tswett> I feel like irregular is better. That way, different digits are more dissimilar.
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02:09:34 <tswett> More wisdom from the neural net:
02:09:57 <tswett> 11:38:23: <int-e> maybe I don't know what for proofs of memory to be science somewhere.
02:10:34 <tswett> The feeling of not knowing what for proofs of memory to be science somewhere.
02:10:48 <tswett> Sometimes I feel like really I still don't know what for proofs of memory to be science somewhere.
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02:17:25 <tswett> 23:47:44: <zzo38> You have to totally it.
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02:18:24 <tswett> 11:56:54: <ais523> hmm, not the falling
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02:19:43 <tswett> Oh my god. Deepest words ever produced by a neural net.
02:20:03 <tswett> 11:14:36: <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not fungot, and I'm completely fungot.
02:20:03 <fungot> tswett: any ideas? comments? concerns? please contact the webmaster/ fnord/ 04/ fnord/ fnord/ images/ p6_cover_big.gif
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02:28:20 <oren> there is a unicode character for "may peace be upon him" ﷺ
02:28:38 <tswett> fungot: give me a sentence please.
02:28:38 <fungot> tswett: scheme in lisp, with optimizations. there was hugs, too, for all practical purposes
02:28:42 <HackEgo> [U+FDFA ARABIC LIGATURE SALLALLAHOU ALAYHE WASALLAM]
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02:35:14 <oren> i wonder what unicode character is the most complex
02:41:09 <HackEgo> [U+2A6A5 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-2A6A5]
02:42:18 <oren> that's a chinese character with 64 strokes, consisting of 4 of 龍 in a square
02:44:07 <oren> apparently it means "verbose." ha. ha. ha.
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02:53:40 <oren> in Mandarin, pronounced "long" in Japanese pronounced "ryuu"
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02:55:24 <oren> Although in japan the simplified form 竜 is more common than 龍
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03:06:19 <JesseH> Writing an interpreter for my language to learn another language and I need to make some decisions to make derplang better.
03:07:11 <JesseH> As of now, i allow users to use multiple lines, although originally you could only use one line. Wouldn't it make sense to go back to only allowing one line?
03:07:46 <MDream> One of of code for the whole program you mean?
03:08:39 <oren> if there is no length limit on that line then there's no problem
03:10:23 <JesseH> but then all that's really doing is forcing the user to do one more step, if it comes to it, which would be taking out the useless whitespace which my interpreter would normally do.
03:11:11 <JesseH> However, since this is an esolang, shouldn't that make sense?
03:11:21 <MDream> I don't know othey things about derplang, so I've no idea of the context in which it originally only allowed one line.
03:13:36 <JesseH> Simple, the language forced the use of one line at first, and then i made the interpreter not care.
03:14:02 <JesseH> Also, I need a mod on the wiki to help me out. I tried to edit my page and it said that it was harmful.
03:14:17 <oren> if an interpreter reads one byte of source at a time, and doesn't handle whitespace as a noop...
03:14:30 <oren> then it would only allow one line
03:14:45 <MDream> I see no commands for importing libraries.
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03:15:20 <JesseH> I'm trying to get rid of some unimplemented filth on the wiki
03:15:29 <JesseH> I wrote some stuff such as STD which isnt a standard library at all
03:15:44 <JesseH> such as the STD section*
03:16:10 <MDude> If each program was one line, but could be called as a function by just saying something like function:filename, that could keep things short.
03:16:20 <MDude> While making a ton of library layers.
03:16:50 <JesseH> The point was to not care about the length of the code, and just allow one line only, anyway. To make it painful.
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03:17:07 <JesseH> Since I didn't feel the language was esoteric enough.
03:17:49 <JenTheHappyGeek> Hi there! I stumbled across this channel and was wondering what its purpose/subject-matter is.
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03:20:24 <JesseH> Can a mod on the wiki change /derplang (the page) to http://hastebin.com/marogejivi.vhdl
03:23:23 <JesseH> Oh wow, I have a lot to fix on that page.
03:23:30 <JesseH> It's like I wasn't even trying to create a good page.
03:24:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Derplang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43960&oldid=38893 * Orenwatson * (-91) changed from pastebin supplied via irc
03:25:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Derplang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43961&oldid=43960 * Orenwatson * (+0) fixed typoes
03:25:55 <JesseH> Being able to make changes myself would be even better! :P
03:26:37 <oren> I think the prblem was caused by content that was already there being considered "harmful"
03:27:01 <oren> that is, the rules for what is harmful changed after the page was created
03:28:24 <oren> by the way im not a mod
03:29:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Derplang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43962&oldid=43961 * JesseH * (-108)
03:29:25 <JesseH> Okay sweet. I edited it successfully!
03:30:27 <JesseH> Either way, oren. I made the changes I wanted to make, and i blame you.
03:31:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Derplang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43963&oldid=43962 * JesseH * (-1)
03:31:14 <JesseH> Every update I make will get spammed into here? :P
03:32:17 <oren> yup! it never became a problem since the wiki is not so active
03:32:19 <JesseH> I think I'm going to take out the fo command.
03:32:47 <JesseH> Then people will be forced to do everything with eq and go
03:34:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Derplang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43964&oldid=43963 * JesseH * (-119) /* Language Overview */
03:35:16 <JesseH> Took it out. I'm just cleaning this up before I implement in erlang. :P
03:37:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * D2alphame * New user account
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03:59:42 <oerjan> JesseH: i believe you hit an anti-spam forbidding <br><br>
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04:01:08 <oerjan> ais523 has made a number of rules based on spams not looking like normal wiki pages
04:01:43 <rdococ> can someone call the headache.Stop method please?
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04:06:25 <JesseH> In Argk, my new language, you can pass logic and what not to functions with []
04:06:52 <JesseH> So like, "print('~n')[n=99, n>0, n-=1];
04:07:01 <JesseH> would print 99, 98, ..., 1
04:15:40 <rdococ> you mean shorthand for for loops?
04:16:21 <rdococ> I so need to make a new programming language...
04:20:43 <JesseH> I would try to give more examples, but you're very annoying.
04:21:08 <JesseH> No offense, but it's not working for me tonight. I'd normally have no issue.
04:22:44 <JesseH> I give one minor example of something, and he corrects me, as if I didn't know my own language, and says that it is a for loop. :P
04:23:01 <JesseH> Yes, I gave you the example that replaces the for loop.
04:23:22 <oerjan> i think you're overinterpreting hth
04:23:57 <JesseH> Guess I'm a little stressed and tired.
04:26:14 <JesseH> print('hello', '~n')[x=input(), n=x+'!'];
04:26:55 <JesseH> That would first get input from you, and then print out "hello<input>!"
04:27:27 <JesseH> But I feel like theres something im not seeing with this sort of idea that's broken
04:27:55 <oerjan> well it resembles list or monad comprehensions
04:28:05 <oerjan> but it's a bit inside out
04:28:29 <JesseH> It almost seems like a disorganized waste of space.
04:28:57 <JesseH> It's pretty much just putting code I'd write somewhere else inside []'s after a function
04:29:18 <JesseH> Well thanks guys, that ruined that idea. xd
04:29:27 <oerjan> [putStrLn("hello "++n)|x <- getLine, let n = s ++ "!"] would be legal haskell monad comprehension with the right extension enabled
04:30:08 <oerjan> and scala uses for syntax for the same thing
04:30:22 <JesseH> So I was about to make up monad comprehensions. Sweet, ill learn haskell or something one day.
04:31:22 <oerjan> but there's something else too, iirc Icon (which i don't really know) has expression which backtrack
04:32:20 <rdococ> But how could you tell between the for syntax, and between indexing the value of a function?
04:33:03 <rdococ> E.g. if f(x) returned an array, what would f(x)[] do? Index f(x) at nil, return an error, or do some kind of iteration?
04:33:17 <oerjan> well that's the point where i thought icon's backtracking expressions might be closer
04:33:41 <oerjan> but none of these fits exactly, i guess
04:35:17 <oerjan> and you could maybe add prolog to the mix
04:35:44 <oerjan> well, you already know erlang
04:36:11 <oerjan> so it has some common elements. but i don't think it has that one.
04:37:12 <oerjan> JesseH: the tricky decision is exactly what decides when the iteration happens.
04:38:09 <oerjan> needs some evaluation and scoping rules etc.
04:39:11 <oerjan> and does print's implementation need to handle any of it
04:39:20 <JesseH> I can see f(x)[...] could return multiple things. 'a,b,c = f(x)[...]' for example.
04:39:40 <JesseH> oerjan, The idea is to implement useful things for functions, that might be commonly written.
04:43:44 <oerjan> oh and APL/J/K has a lot of this for arrays, but in that case it's _definitely_ each function needing to handle it
04:45:02 <oerjan> JesseH: what i mean is, among other things, does a function get to decide whether to pass the whole [...] thing along to another function instead
04:45:18 <oerjan> and is the default to do that or the opposite
04:45:39 <oerjan> nope, completely empty hth
04:46:10 <JesseH> oerjan, you decide, and ill get back to you on that once i sleep :|
04:46:54 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a simulator which emulates an Esoteric Processor
04:47:04 <hppavilion[1]> OR a simulator which emulates an Esoteric Universe
04:47:18 <oerjan> what about an Esoteric Professor twh
04:47:36 * oerjan full of bad ideas today
04:48:26 <hppavilion[1]> The Esoteric Processor I'm going to have to think about what I want it to be like in general, now that I think about it
04:50:01 <rdococ> what about an esoteric esoteric thing?
04:51:31 <hppavilion[1]> GUI-based (that is, you'll have a GUI that you work with)
04:52:06 <hppavilion[1]> Buildable (as in, you assemble an EsoProcessor in the emulator, it doesn't just spit one out)
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04:52:43 <hppavilion[1]> Esoteric, but not so much that it alienates people
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04:54:50 <rdococ> an esoteric processor?
04:55:08 <rdococ> what kind of processor?
04:55:46 <hppavilion[1]> I want to make an almost-game where you build a computer that behaves very differently from any real computer
04:55:59 <zgrep> As far as I know, most processors are esoteric, at least to me...
04:56:09 <rdococ> how do you do that? computers can behave like anything, that's what they're meant to do
04:56:42 <rdococ> you want a computer that looks and behaves weirdly?
04:56:44 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, it wouldn't be /too/ esoteric, as really esoteric things alienate people
04:56:58 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: Yes. And I want to make an almost-game out of it
04:57:06 <rdococ> and what is an almost-game?
04:57:29 <hppavilion[1]> An almost game is something with gameplay components but no real game
04:58:04 <rdococ> umm, that's called mind reading
04:58:18 <rdococ> it could certainly be possible, but not accurate
04:58:57 <hppavilion[1]> An almost game is something that /could/ be a game if one were to add an actual challenge ot it
04:58:58 <rdococ> okay, back to talking about an almost-game
04:59:11 <rdococ> you mean sandbox game?
04:59:23 <rdococ> they're not almost-games, they're games
04:59:36 <rdococ> but not even a sandbox?
05:00:09 <hppavilion[1]> Imagine a game where the goal is to build computers for aliens
05:00:11 <rdococ> what an interesting way to look at a sandbox game
05:00:44 <rdococ> and it causes BSOLOD: blue screen of lack of death
05:00:54 <hppavilion[1]> Now remove any cost constraints and the requirement to build a computer for aliens, but leave in the computer building part
05:01:03 <rdococ> I'm tired, so I might act a bit jerky, like a machine that needs lubricant
05:01:41 <rdococ> you mean, a program in which you can assemble your own computer?
05:02:02 <rdococ> how simple are we talking?
05:02:05 <hppavilion[1]> And defies all notion of what a computer is to a primative mortal
05:02:35 <rdococ> as I said earlier, a computer is meant to be programmable to behave like any machine, as it's a general purpose machine
05:02:53 <rdococ> so this defiant computer would be meant to be not programmable, and can't behave like any machine
05:04:01 <rdococ> a primitive mortal would think a computer...uhh...would they even think about it?
05:04:01 <hppavilion[1]> An esoteric computer would, for example, run a declarative machine code based on geometry
05:04:29 <rdococ> so something that consumers don't think of as programming?
05:05:05 <rdococ> well, I wouldn't exactly call haskell programming, but it fits what you say
05:05:20 <hppavilion[1]> But you would have a flashy interface where you build a computer like that
05:05:33 <rdococ> a computer that runs declarative machine code...
05:06:03 <rdococ> we'd need something a little less esoteric than haskell, right?
05:06:31 <hppavilion[1]> Another example is that, in this program, you could construct a ternary processor chip
05:06:33 <rdococ> wait, we want consumers to be able to program in it?
05:06:58 <rdococ> like small businesses?
05:07:10 <hppavilion[1]> Like the kind of people who build Minecraft computers
05:07:22 <rdococ> computers in Minecraft?
05:07:49 <rdococ> you can do this in logisim, I think
05:08:43 <rdococ> which is a program that simulates circuitry
05:10:08 <hppavilion[1]> It'll allow you to construct esoteric processor chips
05:10:53 <rdococ> might have already been done
05:11:05 <rdococ> people have assembled whole computers in Logisim
05:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> Another, non-esoteric project I'm working on is an Evolution simulator
05:13:13 <rdococ> can't we just make a general purpose processor that can act like every other processor?
05:15:32 <hppavilion[1]> And, if you do it right, the computer that you build
05:15:36 <rdococ> I have an idea for a new programming language which I had a long time ago, but never got around to making an article for
05:15:58 <oren> stupid cd drive making clicky sounds
05:16:06 <rdococ> in which programs are stored as mathematical functions
05:16:54 <rdococ> program(state, input) => new state
05:17:16 <rdococ> but unlike a FSM, there are infinitely many possible states
05:17:33 <oren> how about (state, input) => (state, Maybe output)
05:17:55 <rdococ> yes, we need an output system
05:18:33 <rdococ> but what to output for each state?
05:18:39 <rdococ> there are infinitely many states
05:19:14 <rdococ> also, such output system is not required for turing completeness
05:19:42 <hppavilion[1]> A language should always have IO for anyone to care
05:19:48 <rdococ> and it's required for less-esotericness
05:20:00 <rdococ> although there's already "output": the state number
05:20:13 <zzo38> I have thought of similar things too though about such program mathematical function
05:20:23 <hppavilion[1]> Preferably an esolang should also have GUI support
05:20:48 <rdococ> people care about brainfuck, and brainfuck has no GUI
05:21:15 <hppavilion[1]> But people would LOVE an esolang with GUI that maintains esotericness
05:21:28 <oren> why not two special infinite subspaces of the state space, where states in the first ouput 0 and the other outputs 1
05:21:47 <oren> and states outside both don't output
05:23:14 <rdococ> my Folder programming language, despite not being TC, does have GUI, but it's not mentioned nearly as much here
05:23:59 <rdococ> and it's still esoteric, to an extent
05:24:09 <hppavilion[1]> I firmly maintain my stance that programs embedded in Folder make it TC
05:24:31 <hppavilion[1]> Also, wouldn't it be cool if someone were to make a TC filesys?
05:24:40 <rdococ> and I firmly enforce my rule that such programs embedded in Folder programs stop them from being Folder programs
05:25:00 <rdococ> only linear media are allowed in folder programs
05:25:11 <hppavilion[1]> Have a text file giving a user instructions on how to manipulate the folders
05:25:28 <rdococ> if that was true, then Text would be TC
05:26:01 <rdococ> the human brain isn't TC as you claimed
05:26:18 <hppavilion[1]> Wait, is text an esolang or are we just discussing plaintext?
05:26:34 <oren> yaeh. all real computers of any kind are subTC
05:26:45 <rdococ> the brain is in the real world, and nothing is TC in the real world
05:27:27 <rdococ> we can do stuff TC can't, for example, solve the halting problem
05:27:27 <hppavilion[1]> What if there's a SuperTC computational class that the human brain is orders of magnitude too tiny to comprehend?
05:27:32 <oren> so if brains are so good go marry one
05:27:50 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We can solve halting problems that can be solved
05:28:21 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: actually, we can solve THE halting problem
05:28:51 <rdococ> if a program halts if it doesn't halt, we can see that the program halts if it doesn't halt, and say that is the solution
05:29:13 <hppavilion[1]> But the programs we do that on can be solved by computers too
05:29:29 <hppavilion[1]> THE halting problem is whether it's possible to solve if ANY GIVEN program will halt
05:29:44 <rdococ> give me any program you think can't be solved, and I can solve it
05:30:42 <rdococ> usually, it halts with an error or a crash.
05:31:09 <hppavilion[1]> I think the solution to the Halting Problem was to plug the Halting Problem into a Halting Problem Solving machine, and for some reason that wouldn't halt
05:31:39 <hppavilion[1]> Since it can solve the problem of "Generate a completely random number"?
05:31:58 <oren> the halting problem is to write a program that tells whether a program given an input will halt
05:33:54 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ, write a program that tells whether a program given an input will halt
05:34:21 <rdococ> technically my brain has a program that can do that
05:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> To those reading the logs, check the timestamps between those last two messages
05:34:26 <rdococ> tada, solved halting problem
05:34:53 <zzo38> That cannot be solve in the general case even by your mind, as far as I know
05:35:17 <rdococ> okay, imagine a hypothetical version of my brain that has infinite memory
05:35:31 <rdococ> that would be TC, and could solve the halting problem for programs of any complexity.
05:35:59 <rdococ> it's not impossible to solve the halting problem, just more complicated than running the program
05:36:13 <hppavilion[1]> Alan Turing proved in 1936 that a general algorithm to solve the halting problem for all possible program-input pairs cannot exist. A key part of the proof was a mathematical definition of a computer and program, which became known as a Turing machine; the halting problem is undecidable over Turing machines. It is one of the first examples of a decision problem.
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05:37:01 <Sgeo> I once argued with my teacher about the halting problem
05:37:21 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ thinks he can decide whether ANY given program with a given input will halt
05:37:37 <Sgeo> He seemed to think it applied to finite memory .. actually, does it, the way it's defined? Since you need a machine with more memory than the one executing the program in question
05:37:52 <Sgeo> I did, once he googled it and saw that it's about infinite memory
05:38:15 <rdococ> I never said it applied to finite memory
05:39:03 <rdococ> and I know full well it doesn't
05:39:36 <hppavilion[1]> Sgeo: It doesn't, as the program in question could need an indefinite amount of memory, and thus the Solver's must be infinite
05:40:02 <hppavilion[1]> I used wikipedia talking about Turing. I think I won.
05:45:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Algebra]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43965 * Rdococ * (+306) wow, this article is really short, need to add examples one day
05:46:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43966&oldid=43208 * Rdococ * (+18) added algebra
05:47:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folder]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43967&oldid=43884 * Rdococ * (+126) /* Computational Class */ you need to read this hppa
05:50:51 <oerjan> Sgeo: if you apply the method of the proof for the halting problem to the case of finite memory, you end up with the space hierarchy theorem instead hth
05:52:01 <oerjan> which is how we know e.g. LOGSPACE != PSPACE != EXPSPACE
05:54:54 <rdococ> all the programming languages I "make" are always about FSMs...
05:55:04 <rdococ> I'm going to try to make one that's NOT about FSMs
05:56:01 <oerjan> `learn An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
05:56:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'fsm': An FSM is a state machine with noodly appendages.
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05:56:31 <rdococ> I will make a programming language to glorify the flying spaghetti monster
05:56:44 <rdococ> uh...a lock automaton?
05:57:00 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: that language must only support GOTO as control flow, such as to encourage Spaghetti code
05:57:02 <rdococ> I forgot... haven't been into programming languages for a while now
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05:57:37 <rdococ> that was just a tree view of an example of an FSM
05:57:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43968&oldid=43967 * Rdococ * (-10) /* Examples */ idk what "Lock Automaton" is, so
05:58:10 <rdococ> it's just a lock programmed into Folder as an FSM
05:58:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: We need to define a TC derivative of folder xD
05:58:54 <hppavilion[1]> And then force Bill Gates to implement it into Windows at Gunpoint
06:00:03 <rdococ> great idea, except for forcing Bill Gates to implement it
06:00:16 <rdococ> even though Folder itself is already implemented in Windows
06:02:02 <rdococ> idk if that's possible
06:02:18 <rdococ> maybe we could define a new type of folder with infinite subfolders?
06:03:15 <rdococ> yeah, and then it wouldn't be already implemented
06:04:02 <rdococ> THE esoteric OS, or just in general?
06:04:06 <hppavilion[1]> Do you have any ideas for stuff we could put in its filesys
06:04:34 <rdococ> files with a negative number of data?
06:05:21 <rdococ> well, let's say we have a group of three files, ooooo|ooooo|ooooo
06:05:31 <rdococ> for zero bytes, that'd be ooooo||ooooo
06:05:52 <rdococ> and minus one, that'd beumm...
06:06:15 <rdococ> do you mean complex amount of data, or do you mean complex bytes?
06:06:41 <hppavilion[1]> Complex number for quantity of data and, for the esoteric processor, complex bits fed into the logic gate
06:07:01 <rdococ> how exactly would a file with 2i bits of data look like
06:08:25 <rdococ> my mind understands -30% of what we are talking about right now
06:08:57 <rdococ> true, false, imaginary truth, imaginary falsth
06:10:55 <rdococ> if we use 0 and 1 for false and true, the multiplication is AND, the addition minus the multiplication is OR, stuff like that, then if we used 1i for imaginary
06:11:05 <rdococ> 1i AND 1 would be 1i for example
06:11:13 <rdococ> but 1i AND 1i would be -1...
06:12:09 <rdococ> can we please stick to negative files
06:13:42 <rdococ> 0%2 is 0, 1%2 is 1, 2%2 is 0, going the other way, -1%2 is 1
06:14:58 <hppavilion[1]> If we know that, we can distribute out complex booleans
06:15:07 <rdococ> 1i OR 1i, which is i + i - 1, would be 2i-1, if we do the modulus separately, that's 1
06:15:50 <rdococ> 1 OR 1i is 1 + i - i, which is just 1
06:16:33 <rdococ> would 1i OR 1i be i + i + 1 as before we do the modulus, or woud it be i + i - 1
06:18:42 <hppavilion[1]> The primatives of Boolan Algebra are AND, NOT , and OR, I believe
06:22:09 <rdococ> also, would 1+i exist?
06:22:28 <rdococ> complex numbers don't work well with modulus
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06:29:42 <rdococ> complex modulus is nothing like normal modulus
06:30:26 <hppavilion[1]> It appears what is called "modulus" in complex numbers refers to complex absolute value
06:31:17 <hppavilion[1]> Citation: https://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=1%2Bi%252
06:33:22 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ucWQlrcBiFQHjmTS4TN5I5DpkJbI17PXctn3l2XrzbE/edit?usp=sharing
06:33:35 <hppavilion[1]> In case you want to help me document Complex Boolean Algebra
06:42:33 <rdococ> We only need those three lines I added, hppavilion[1]
06:42:36 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I'm thinking of implementing a library for this in python. However, I'm bad with complex numbers. So I need to figure out how to do it
06:42:48 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: I know, but at this point I'm just being stubborn
06:43:37 <hppavilion[1]> Maybe we should publish a research paper on this xD
06:43:43 <newsham> python already has complex numbers
06:44:18 <newsham> complex(1,5)%2 == complex(1,5) in python, it seems
06:44:49 <rdococ> this complex boolean stuff is getting boring
06:45:16 <rdococ> it doesn't suddenly magically make super magical core functionality appear in an OS
06:45:35 <newsham> which esolang does that, rdococ?
06:45:55 <rdococ> we're not talking about esplangs
06:46:04 <rdococ> I was taling about that complex boolean thing
06:46:14 <newsham> complex booleans dont count as esoteric then nothing does
06:46:28 <rdococ> never said they weren't esoteric
06:46:32 <oerjan> i think you've reinvented gaussian integers (mod 2)
06:46:33 <rdococ> I said they weren't eso langs
06:47:53 <oerjan> a perfectly respectable ring with four elements
06:48:23 <oerjan> it's not a "boolean" ring though. x^2 = x doesn't hold.
06:48:27 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: It may not introduce core functionality to an OS, but it certainly would make a cool thing to deal with when designing an Alien Processor
06:48:32 <oerjan> (as you've already found out.)
06:49:53 <newsham> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/274694/modulo-complex-number
06:50:58 <rdococ> I don't like complex booleans anymore, I'm done with them
06:51:18 <rdococ> they make no sense, not even esoteric sense
06:51:38 <hppavilion[1]> What other esoteric abstract concepts are there...?
06:51:42 <rdococ> what about a file of negative size?
06:52:16 <hppavilion[1]> The negative file size means it removes data from the previous file
06:52:19 <rdococ> a file of negative size overwrites previous data with empty data
06:52:40 <rdococ> so creating a negative file is the same as getting rid of data
06:52:45 <hppavilion[1]> Of course, I'm dealing at the phyisical, chip level
06:53:05 <rdococ> that could be AWESOME if used correctly
06:53:20 <newsham> len(cat a b) = len(cat a) + len(cat b)
06:53:33 <rdococ> you would be able to do garbage collection with negative files
06:53:47 <rdococ> I took that term out of context
06:53:57 <rdococ> forget what I just said
06:54:05 <hppavilion[1]> You thought it was copy file but it turned out to be concat?
06:54:11 <newsham> if len(cat b) < 0 then len(cat a b) < len(cat a)
06:54:11 <rdococ> how would a file of negative size be useful
06:54:19 <hppavilion[1]> I really like complex numbers today for some reason
06:54:24 <shachaf> oerjan: what's a ring that is not respectable twh
06:54:33 <newsham> rdococ: dunno.. lets figure out what it means first, then figure out how its useful :)
06:55:01 <oerjan> shachaf: one which hogs all its operators instead of distributing hth
06:55:04 <rdococ> what about a file whose size is unknown until you feed a value x?
06:55:15 <rdococ> for example, a file could have a filesize of x^2 bits
06:55:21 <shachaf> oerjan: that would hardly be a ring would it
06:55:36 <newsham> does a file of negative length have contents? ie. does it need to have the same contents as another file to meaningfuly concat them together?
06:55:38 <hppavilion[1]> OERJAN, A *TOOL* OF THE CORPORATE MISOGYNY, SAYS NOT ALL RINGS DESERVE THE SAME RESPECT!
06:55:52 <oerjan> newsham: interesting first answer, that means you can get the ordinary booleans by doing (mod 1 + i)
06:55:54 <newsham> do i need to start with an "un-a" to cat it with a file that ends with an "a"?
06:56:24 <shachaf> newsham: If you made files be free groups instead of free monoids, you could make something like that made sense.
06:56:30 <rdococ> concat("a", anti-"a") = ""
06:56:49 <rdococ> concat("a", anti-"b", "b") = "a"
06:57:05 <newsham> concat("abc", anti-c) = "ab"; but concat("abc", anti-x) == ?
06:57:21 <rdococ> but concat(anti-"b", "a", "b") is itself basically
06:57:38 <rdococ> what the bool would boolean geometry and boolean calculus look like?
06:57:49 <shachaf> i think "free group" is the right answer hth
06:58:10 <shachaf> But I'm not sure I've heard of people talking about the "length" of a free group element.
06:58:28 <shachaf> http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1147702/length-of-an-element-in-a-free-group
06:58:29 <hppavilion[1]> I'm yet to take calculus, so I don't understand it
06:59:02 <rdococ> we'll need to know what a boolean function is to understand this boolean calculus
06:59:21 <rdococ> but I'm just going to go with my anti-file idea because I smell potential
06:59:22 <oerjan> <rdococ> so creating a negative file is the same as getting rid of data <-- this reminds me of that attempt someone made to make a reversible computation system in which types were a ring (it didn't look to me like it worked out, alas, although maybe with _just_ addition it does)
07:00:08 <hppavilion[1]> It looks like Boolean Geometry is still yet to be a thing
07:00:43 <rdococ> it's like a stack thing
07:01:16 <rdococ> guys, should concat("ba", anti-"b") be "a" or not?
07:01:42 <hppavilion[1]> So boolean geometry takes place in a space where the coordinates can only be 1s and 0s
07:02:16 <rdococ> so you can only get squares, triangles, lines and points in boolean geometry?
07:02:17 <newsham> hppavilion[1]: how about multi-dimensional boolean geometry
07:02:58 <hppavilion[1]> I meant the numbers in the coordinates can only be 1s and 0s
07:03:00 <rdococ> this talk about geometry reminds me of an idea I had
07:03:11 <newsham> so each coordinate is a bit vector
07:03:21 <rdococ> basically, I had the idea of making a minecraft like game that uses polygons instead of voxels
07:03:40 <newsham> and dot products = parity(A xor B) ?
07:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> So in Boolean 2-space the coordinates can be (0,0), (0,1), (1,0), or (1,1)
07:04:03 <rdococ> so you could "dig" into polygons, which would actually be splitting the polygon into smaller ones, and making the polygons closer to the dig area farther away from the player
07:04:18 <newsham> wait, not parity(A xor B), foldr OR False (A xor B) ?
07:04:42 <hppavilion[1]> Why not make a Minecraft-based Programming Language
07:04:44 <rdococ> and if you dug to the surface on the other side, the points too far would be removed, and the points close to the surface would connect with the surface
07:04:54 <hppavilion[1]> Where you input a Minecraft World and it spits out something else
07:05:07 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: interesting
07:05:15 <oerjan> rdococ: a boolean function is just a function that takes booleans and returns booleans. also see: post's lattice
07:05:15 <newsham> how about a game where you solve proofs?
07:05:37 <hppavilion[1]> I don't like that in Math, you can't do things like line(a, b) where a and b are points
07:05:50 <newsham> https://www.cs.washington.edu/verigames
07:05:56 <hppavilion[1]> At least, as far as I've been taught that's how it works
07:05:59 <rdococ> yay for annonymous data
07:06:59 <newsham> separation of Church and state
07:07:25 <oerjan> <newsham> "abc" - "cb" = a? <-- eek that's not very groupy
07:07:31 <rdococ> get it? church of flying spaghetti monster, which also means finite state machine, church, state? get it?
07:09:05 <rdococ> what about an OS where files didn't exist
07:09:59 <rdococ> second class data is data that's not treated first class
07:10:52 <rdococ> anyway, what about an OS without files?
07:11:03 <rdococ> zeroth class data is...umm...idk
07:11:15 <newsham> 1st class data = in register, 2nd class = in cache, 3rd class = in memory, 4th class = in remote memory, 5th class = on interwebs
07:12:02 <rdococ> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-class_citizen
07:12:43 <rdococ> -1st class = Can have a name of negative length only
07:12:56 <oerjan> newsham: the name makes you go insane hth
07:13:36 <rdococ> so what if everything was a zeroth class object?
07:13:44 <rdococ> as in, a programming language where nothing has a name?
07:14:19 <rdococ> but can't you just give the item a property called name?
07:14:45 <rdococ> oh wait you can't because then the property would be named name
07:14:59 <rdococ> and you can't name it a number either
07:15:19 <newsham> you can construct a tuple with a value item and a name item, without explicitely naming them
07:15:43 <rdococ> but how will you know which one is the name item?
07:16:02 <rdococ> is there a variable x with a value of 3, or a variable 3 with a value of x?
07:16:33 <rdococ> it's not as easy as saying a random word
07:17:04 <newsham> i should write a SKI VM with syscall support
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07:36:14 <zzo38> rdococ: Maybe you will know which one is the name item by the datatype.
07:36:35 <rdococ> forget about that zeroth class thing
07:37:20 <rdococ> does anyone have any ideas on how to use negative files to their full potential
07:37:28 <rdococ> either with or without content and order and stuff
07:45:46 <zzo38> Is there the minesweeper variant where the bombs can move by itself?
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07:48:54 <rdococ> maybe if we find a different way to treat negative file sizes
07:49:28 <rdococ> maybe a file of negative size is a memory space extension
07:49:52 <zzo38> OK, try different kind of idea lets see what can be figured out.
07:49:53 <rdococ> so if you have five bytes of data left, a file of negative space would increase that
07:50:05 <zzo38> Try to figure out how it work and then you can see if it is work
07:50:35 <rdococ> forget the negative idea
07:51:01 <rdococ> do you know of a way to make an OS turing complete with only a file system at your disposal?
07:51:23 <rdococ> you'd have to make up programming language structures like Folder
07:51:47 <zzo38> I may think of it in future but maybe not
07:52:06 <rdococ> Folder programs, at the very least, are folders made up of subfolders with shortcuts in them to other subfolders
07:52:18 <rdococ> I use the term shortcut very broadly here
07:52:52 <hppavilion[1]> Programming has Verbs (functions) and nouns (objects of various sorts)
07:53:20 <zzo38> Try to make one with adverbs and adjective
07:53:35 <zzo38> (possibly even without so much (or any) verb/noun if can be made to do????)
07:53:50 <rdococ> adverbs would be functions that modify functions
07:53:58 <rdococ> e.g. sitting is different from quickly sitting
07:54:29 <rdococ> adverbs are declarative functions acting on functions, and adjectives are declarative functions acting on nouns
07:54:33 <hppavilion[1]> quickly sit() would perhaps optimize the sit() method prior to calling it if the langauge is interpreted?
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07:56:07 <rdococ> but quickly is a function itself, so it's the same thing
07:56:14 <rdococ> okay, quickly might have a return value, true
07:56:57 <zzo38> I would prefer the "quickly(sit)()" if it is a function that call and can return other function, but if you are doing esoteric programming then it does not matter what way is better, just make it in whatever way you are to make it as
07:56:58 <rdococ> what about imperative functions acting on verbs?
07:57:05 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: i hear the J language has adverbs hth
07:57:47 <hppavilion[1]> rdococ: but it isn't a function. It's an adverb. A metafunction of sorts.
07:58:06 <rdococ> metafunction function same thing
07:58:19 <zzo38> OK, well I suppose it can depend on how the function in programming language is work
07:58:20 <rdococ> hppavilion[1]: not in a first class environment
07:58:37 <zzo38> So it can depend if it is first-class function and stuff like that.
07:59:26 <rdococ> well, quickly(quickly) would optimize quickly
07:59:39 <rdococ> quickly(quickly)(sit)(rdococ)
08:00:20 <rdococ> there are verbs, adverbs and adjectives - are there jectives?
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08:00:37 <rdococ> of course, adjectives are basically adnouns,
08:00:59 <rdococ> what about adadjectives?
08:01:03 <rdococ> they would describe adjectives.
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08:01:29 <rdococ> e.g. blue is an adjective, and dark in "dark blue" is an adadjective
08:01:44 <hppavilion[1]> Human describes things like name, age, occupation, sexual preference, place of living
08:01:55 <rdococ> but I'd rather focus on making an OS whose filesys is turing complete
08:02:27 <rdococ> well I'm OCD'ing towards it
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08:02:47 <rdococ> of course it is, go wild
08:02:54 <rdococ> what's an esoteric singularity?
08:03:26 <hppavilion[1]> Something so esoteric that thinking about it breaks your mind, making it impossible to think like a rational human being ever again
08:03:53 <rdococ> I already don't think like a primitive rational human being anyway
08:03:57 <zzo38> You can try, but I doubt you can succeed.
08:04:15 <zzo38> (Whether or not you already think like a "primitive rational human being" anyway)
08:04:45 <hppavilion[1]> Let's focus on things that make actual programmatical sense
08:04:45 <rdococ> new fat young english human()
08:05:00 <rdococ> new slim young male english human()
08:05:01 <hppavilion[1]> new... actually, fat could be used to describe that it has extra data...
08:05:41 <rdococ> local orange = new annoying orange()
08:05:54 <hppavilion[1]> What descriptors could be applied to an object in general?
08:06:09 <rdococ> oh! we could do a programming language based on the annoying orange
08:06:39 <rdococ> to do 2+2: "Hey! Hey 2! Blender! Hey! Hey 2! Blender!"
08:06:57 <rdococ> and then "Hey! Hey 4! Packaging!"
08:07:44 <rdococ> the Annoying Programming Language
08:08:10 <hppavilion[1]> What descriptors could be applied to single objects that would be useful?
08:09:09 <rdococ> Hey! Hey 2s! Blender! ~the 2's get blended into a 4~ Hey! Hey Blender! Hand! ~the hand empties the blender into the display~
08:09:47 <rdococ> Hey! Hey X and Y! Blender Z! adds x and y into z
08:10:03 <hppavilion[1]> But not include any variables not declared in the initialization?
08:10:14 <rdococ> it blends X and Y into X+Y
08:10:41 <rdococ> and stores it in variable Z
08:10:53 <hppavilion[1]> We're having two completely different conversations
08:11:15 <rdococ> I want an OS which can be turing complete with only a file system
08:11:21 <hppavilion[1]> I'm designing a new type of keyword that could CHANGE THE FACE OF OO PROGRAMMING
08:11:43 <hppavilion[1]> You're making a programming language based on a stupid web series turned TV show
08:12:05 <rdococ> I didn't get ANY popularity for being serious with my Folder idea
08:12:25 <rdococ> and you get all your popularity for making slim objects?!
08:13:03 <rdococ> you can eat annoying oranges! yay!
08:13:28 <hppavilion[1]> Please don't make the Annoying Orange programming language in that state
08:13:42 <rdococ> Hey! Hey hppavilion[1]!
08:14:42 <rdococ> Hey! Hey X! Knife! -- destroys X
08:15:02 <rdococ> I had that idea too but naah
08:15:31 <rdococ> divides X by 2 for now
08:16:18 <hppavilion[1]> foo = class(extends=[bar, baz], implements=[quz], abstract=True, interface=True){...}
08:16:40 <rdococ> foo = extends bar, baz, implements quz, abstract, interface class
08:16:46 <hppavilion[1]> I doubt you can have an interface that implements another interface
08:18:02 <rdococ> have any ideas for a good idea I could use
08:18:31 <rdococ> have any ideas for a good idea I could take inspiration on for my own idea on how to get my own idea
08:18:41 <zzo38> rdococ: No, I think that is difficult
08:19:06 <hppavilion[1]> Programming language based on bad erotic fanfiction?
08:19:15 <zzo38> Just see what we have written and try to figure out. I don't know, so maybe it is or maybe it is not.
08:19:55 <zzo38> There is a list of ideas in the wiki, you can also add stuff like you have discuss here, onto there too, and can make an organization of replies and so on.
08:20:22 <hppavilion[1]> There is not /one/ mention of Star Wars on the entire wiki
08:21:06 <zzo38> Then add into list of ideas and then there is one mention of Star Wars in wiki. Or, figure out how to make such esolang and make that page.
08:21:06 <hppavilion[1]> A programming language that, when read backwards, contains hidden, satan-worshipping messages?
08:25:35 <hppavilion[1]> A language where EVERYTHING is a stack that you can revert to a previous state?
08:25:51 <zzo38> Yes that is some idea too
08:26:14 <zzo38> Please add anything not already in list of idea in wiki onto there (although you can discuss it on this IRC too please)
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08:28:13 <hppavilion[1]> A language where things can only be accomplished with complex networking and threading
08:30:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Natas Liah]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43969 * Hppavilion1 * (+91) Created Page
08:32:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Natas Liah]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43970&oldid=43969 * Hppavilion1 * (+142) Stubbified, expanded page.
08:34:16 <rdococ> a programming language that looks like an office suite
08:34:41 <rdococ> but with turing complete files
08:34:56 <rdococ> something that looks at first to be an office suite, but you can make programs in it
08:35:01 <hppavilion[1]> For example, you can store data in various "programs"
08:35:15 <hppavilion[1]> But to get data between programs, you have to use the "copy" and "paste" instructions
08:35:47 <rdococ> people have made fully functional games in excel
08:36:05 <hppavilion[1]> I mean excel is the only place where you can do math
08:36:38 <hppavilion[1]> Hello World would be something like: "open Word; type "Hello, World!"; print;"
08:37:03 <rdococ> I'd rather have a programming language that looks like an office suite
08:37:50 <rdococ> basically spreadsheet or document format which supports programming features - not a programming language with random office suite words thrown in
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08:38:04 <rdococ> basically, no lines of code 7
08:38:27 <rdococ> as my clumsy hands accidentally touch the 7 from the numpad
08:38:29 <hppavilion[1]> To do math, you have to do "Minimize word; open Excel; select "<cellID>"; type "<stuff>"; get "<cellID>"; copy; minimize Excel; open Word; paste; print;"
08:38:53 <hppavilion[1]> And you transfer data between them via the Clipboard
08:39:11 <rdococ> open OpenOffice; do all your stuff instead of minimizing and opening Microsoft Offartice; close;
08:39:34 <hppavilion[1]> It would also include statements about the badness of MS Office
08:39:39 <rdococ> open ThisLanguageIsSpreadsheetFartNuts; close;
08:40:35 <rdococ> stop! stop rewording already existing programming languages! with you it's all do this, do that, do this, do that, some kind of glorified print, some kind of glorified read stream, some kind of this and that
08:40:59 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not trying to just reword a programming language
08:41:35 <rdococ> well try something other than reworded imperative lines of code then
08:41:58 <hppavilion[1]> I just thought it'd be funny to have a language where you open a bunch of different programs that don't intereact very well
08:42:24 <rdococ> my office suite idea was good enough, but you had to come and ruin it with imperative lines of code
08:42:48 <rdococ> your idea isn't an office idea at all
08:42:59 <rdococ> it's a reworded Python
08:43:31 <rdococ> which is basically mov
08:44:32 <rdococ> yay talk about my office idea now
08:47:08 <rdococ> you know how people have managed to make all sorts of cool games in Excel
08:47:52 <rdococ> how about we make an office suite that is easier for them to make games in than Excel
08:48:07 <rdococ> or basically extend the idea or something
08:48:26 <rdococ> or we could make the programming language look and act enough like an office suite people don't realize they're making programs
08:48:55 <rdococ> and when they realize, they'll realize that programming is easy and start programming
08:49:23 <hppavilion[1]> And we make it /just/ esoteric enough so that they join our little community, too
08:49:50 <hppavilion[1]> Because when I click "Random Page", I more often than not recognize the page I land on
08:50:06 <rdococ> yeah, we need more people in the esoteric community
08:50:39 <rdococ> knowing me, I'll get bored of it before I start making it, but it's worth a shot
08:51:11 <rdococ> although I have to go in an hour and thirty nine minutes
08:51:16 <hppavilion[1]> I've been planning to develop an Office Suite for a while
08:51:29 <hppavilion[1]> I could use this as practice, as it'll be a bit more simple
08:51:47 <rdococ> what should it look like? it could look like a spreadsheet program, or a word document program
08:52:08 <hppavilion[1]> I think it should be a few programs, such as to emphasize the office suitiness
08:52:49 <hppavilion[1]> I think that we should make it so that you can do cool stuff at the base, but oh, to do this you need to edit the .cfg which isn't too hard, oh you want to do that? You'll need to frobnicate the fnord...
08:54:24 <hppavilion[1]> Which is one of the most intimidating parts of programming
08:57:24 <rdococ> maybe there could be six levels of difficulty based on which program
08:57:30 <rdococ> word, spreadsheet, database...
09:00:12 <rdococ> or maybe just the same difficulty each
09:04:27 <rdococ> Word: You can hide chunks of text inside spoilers, simulating a decision tree.
09:08:57 <rdococ> Word: You can create buttons to go to different pages, simulating finite state automata.
09:09:54 <rdococ> Spreadsheet: You can type formulae into cells, simulating computation.
09:10:58 <rdococ> I've decided to keep the first idea for Word, and put my second Word idea into Presentation.
09:12:44 <rdococ> I'm not recording anything, I'm not a youtuber.
09:13:09 <rdococ> But you gave me an interesting idea. Let's include a movie maker in the office suite.
09:13:34 <hppavilion[1]> I mean where are you putting this information so you can later access it xD
09:13:49 <hppavilion[1]> I'm basically trying to figure out if you're putting it in Google Docs
09:14:04 <rdococ> I'm typing it down in Notepad
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09:18:16 <rdococ> so it should be more advanced
09:18:27 <rdococ> database already feels like a programming language
09:18:57 <rdococ> Database: You can create functions that conditionally modify database entries.
09:19:26 <hppavilion[1]> Should we allow the programs to be unified into a vast interconnected web?
09:20:45 <hppavilion[1]> E.g. you can unify a BUNCH of different components into a single game
09:21:54 <rdococ> Bundle: You can create buttons in the words of a document that trigger functions that conditionally modify database entries. You can create textboxes that display certain entries from the database.
09:24:11 <rdococ> Movie: You can create interfaces to go to different parts of the movie, like the menus in an actual movie.
09:25:36 <rdococ> which then we might as well change Presentation
09:26:16 <rdococ> so right now we have Word, Spreadsheet, Presentation, Database, and Movie
09:26:50 <rdococ> Bundle would've been a name for a document with all five elements
09:27:01 <rdococ> Word, Spreadsheet, Presentation, Database and Movie
09:27:11 <rdococ> I'm thinking of changing Presentation
09:27:29 <rdococ> yeah, I'm removing Presentation
09:28:14 <rdococ> movie can replace presentation
09:28:40 <rdococ> it'd be easier to do movie than presentation, atleast as how a presentation is usually thought of as
09:28:52 <rdococ> you don't want to click Presnetation, and suddenly see a movie maker window
09:29:43 <rdococ> now to make it look a bit more esoteric
09:30:26 <rdococ> we could make the language used to create macros in Database more compact
09:30:50 <rdococ> by more compact I mean compact, I haven't even started making the suite
09:31:37 <rdococ> me or you or I (said it like that to satisfy grammar nazis)
09:33:49 <hppavilion[1]> It needs to be something with an R library most definitely
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09:34:35 <hppavilion[1]> It has a function to calculate P Value given a vector or something
09:34:42 <rdococ> but I want a good macro language
09:35:42 <rdococ> if (some entry satisfies this condition and/or/xor that condition and stuff) then (modify this entry to some formula of the other entries something something)
09:36:25 <rdococ> how about unconditional modification
09:36:33 <rdococ> but with the formula thing
09:36:53 <rdococ> imperative version of formulae in cells thing
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09:49:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Ashl * New user account
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09:50:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Swapper]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43971&oldid=35536 * Ashl * (+24)
09:56:05 <rdococ> but what I really wanted was a programming GUI that looked like an office suite
09:56:09 <rdococ> so it feels professional
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10:00:42 <coppro> @tell boily http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~scshunt/mj-reference-wip.pdf
10:10:04 <rdococ> I wonder, can we define a turing complete language as a language which can generate every possible infinite output in infinite time?
10:10:53 <ashl> what does 'every possible' mean
10:12:03 <rdococ> or could we give this definition a new name?
10:12:09 <int-e> what form does the output take?
10:12:24 <rdococ> a string of characters, from a finite alphabet
10:12:52 <rdococ> or an infinite alphabet or space such as the real nmbers
10:13:40 <ashl> does 'every possible infinite output' include the binary expansion of chaitin's constant
10:14:15 <ashl> then no, we can't define a turing complete language that way :P
10:14:16 <int-e> In any case, I think this doesn't do what you want, because /deterministic/ TMs can only do this if you also allow infinite input, but stupid machines (which just copy an infinite input or generate a random stream of output characters) satisfy the definition.
10:15:02 <int-e> (randomness can be regarded as a special kind of infinite input)
10:15:48 <rdococ> I want to get a programming language for which I can design an interface which looks and feels like a professional business suite
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12:06:26 <stalem> i have some thoughts about how to approach writing an interpreter, but i'd like to know if it would be the right approach if anyone is willing to lend some help
12:18:07 <stalem> i'm thinking the lexer/tokenizer goes through the source character by character, depending on what character it detects, call a lexer function specific for each type of character related to the functions of the language
12:18:12 <stalem> (i hope i'm making any sense)
12:18:48 <stalem> each of these functions either continues to recursively parse the source, or when encountering a closing char, returns the token array
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12:19:08 <stalem> but i'm afraid it's going to be a whole lot of parser functions
12:21:26 <stalem> i'm also really unsure how to even begin categorizing and interpreting the tokens, but then again maybe the best approach is just to dive into it and solve each problem as i go.
12:22:04 <stalem> the lang i'm going to interpret is this btw http://pastebin.com/gnd67AKg a sense of what needs to be done might help
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12:48:45 <stalem> i'm starting to wonder if the problems that arise are due to it being a badly designed language
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13:14:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Churro]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43972&oldid=42975 * Ashl * (+24)
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14:32:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HQ9+]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43973&oldid=16691 * LegionMammal978 * (+115) /* Proving all the tasks are possible */
14:32:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:HQ9+]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43974&oldid=43973 * LegionMammal978 * (+101) /* Proving all the tasks are possible */
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15:37:02 <tswett> stalem: I feel like you have the right approach here.
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15:39:25 <tswett> My instinct would be to do pretty much what you just said.
15:39:27 <tswett> You might end up with a whole lot of functions. But if you need to do a whole lot of different things, then having a whole lot of functions is correct.
15:45:14 <stalem> tswett: haha i guess that makes sense. the main issue tho would be to preparse the [x]n and x..n parts, but as they're only two kinds of checks it might suffice to have exceptions for those
15:45:59 <tswett> At least for [x]n, you might want to do it in two steps. First, do a preprocessing phrase where you process [x]n but just leave everything else as-is. Second, parse everything else.
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15:48:16 <stalem> that would actually be a great idea. i could just pass the char array to a preparse function that checks for [x]n, inserts x n number of times and return the resulting array
15:48:31 <stalem> then pass that result to the main parser
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15:53:17 <stalem> although i guess it would be called a preprocessor :P
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16:29:13 <zzo38> It also depend what programming language you are going to write it with
16:29:31 <lambdabot> stalem said 1d 4h 8m 21s ago: first iteration of lang generation script done! gonna try and write up a desciption and you can have a look
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17:11:06 <oren> I want to write a better terminal emulator / ssh client for Windows
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17:11:53 <izabera> !learn sedirc i'm a bot written in sed, my source is here: https://gist.github.com/izabera/345327710e70c10c4e45
17:12:42 <izabera> that counts as esoteric, doesn't it?
17:13:03 <oren> written in sed?
17:13:49 <oren> I used to be quite good with Visual Basic on XP
17:14:11 <oren> Maybe I can write a better terminal/ssh thing with VB?
17:17:06 <oren> it should theoretically be possible
17:17:21 <zzo38> I used VB6 as well
17:17:35 <oren> those were the days
17:17:57 <rdococ> I prefer a more esoteric language
17:19:17 <izabera> probably a bunch of other terminals will work out of the box in cygwin
17:19:33 <zzo38> I wrote a gopher client in VB6
17:20:48 <stale-food> zzo38: actually c# ;_; only useful lang i know that i'm currently fluent in
17:21:26 <zzo38> I think xterm is a pretty good terminal emulator though, although there are some things I would have omitted as well as some things it lacks but should include.
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17:23:40 <zzo38> I would add a resource that contains codes which the terminal interprets (as if it had received) whenever the terminal is reset, therefore you can change various settings with it that cannot be set with other resources (also it mean some other resources are not needed)
17:24:32 <zzo38> Also some Tektronix features are not currently emulated
17:24:39 <oren> yes there is cygwin, but I think it would be nice to have something with ssh integration but not crappy like Putty
17:25:06 <oren> (I'm using a cygwin terminal right now)
17:25:44 <Sgeo> cygwin has ssh, I use it all the time
17:25:53 <oren> So I'mma have a "Connect" menu, with options "SSH", "Raw TCP", "Raw Secure TCP"
17:26:06 <oren> right but not integrated
17:26:15 <Sgeo> What, you mean with a GUI?
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17:26:47 <Sgeo> I guess I personally find typing more convenient
17:27:10 <oren> and cygwin isn't an EXE you can just dump on some guy's computer
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17:28:25 <zzo38> Some DEC features are not implemented in xterm either
17:28:43 <zzo38> I would also want ANSI music support
17:29:38 <oren> zzo38: that could actually be somewhat possible if the ssh program is in the gui program...
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17:48:51 <newsham> windows git dist comes with ssh and a few other unix utils, lighter weight install than cygwin, if you just want a partial unix cmd set
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18:47:08 <oren> tcpcon = New Net.Sockets.TcpClient(host, port)
18:48:12 <oren> I spent so much time writing C that i forgot what speaking a highlevel language feels like
18:49:12 <pikhq> This is something that even C could do a lot better. int fd = tcp_client(host, port); is a *perfectly doable* API that BSD sockets doesn't have. :)
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19:03:59 <ashl> see http://man.cat-v.org/plan_9/2/dial
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19:10:18 <izabera> what do they use to generate the web version of those pages?
19:11:44 <zzo38> Yes you could make the library that does that kind of "tcp_client" though, I suppose
19:14:08 <ashl> izabera: you could /join #cat-v and ask :P
19:14:19 <izabera> i actually was already there and i asked
19:14:27 <ashl> i'm not on there
19:17:48 <zzo38> Such function could be made also to automatically select IPv4/IPv6, as well as to automatically do other stuff (possibly based on pseudo-TLDs and so on in the host name), etc
19:19:13 <zzo38> I still am trying to think of what other stuff to write to add into the character back story. He may be here soon!
19:20:03 <pikhq> zzo38: IPv4/IPv6 autoselection should be trivial even in normal BSD sockets if you just use getaddrinfo.
19:20:32 <pikhq> (getaddrinfo returns a linked list of things to try connecting to, in preferred order. So you iterate through, try IPv6, and then IPv4)
19:22:09 <zzo38> However I suggestion something else too, which is pseudo-TLD so that if you end a domain name with .ipv4 then it will strip out the .ipv4 and then connect normally but force IPv4 to be used instead of IPv6
19:24:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dogescript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43975&oldid=40983 * LegionMammal978 * (+9)
19:26:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could sort of implement that, if you chose a prefix that's a little longer, by buying a domain name and running special purpose name servers serving it that query name servers and filter to ipv4
19:27:01 <b_jonas> but I don't think it's an idea I like in first place
19:27:03 <zzo38> It is meant to be a pseudo-TLD though and not a real one
19:29:07 <oren> Now, which control should I use to display the text from the server?
19:29:15 <oren> and from the client
19:29:39 <oren> I am thinking maybe a Rich Text box?
19:30:00 <zzo38> oren: I was expecting just draw it into a picture box
19:30:19 <oren> Hmm that might be simpler actrually
19:30:23 <oren> Yeah good idea
19:30:35 <zzo38> A text box work for receiving text from a gopher server (although you have to use Windows API to make long enough text), but for a terminal emulator I think a picture box would be better.
19:31:45 <b_jonas> oren: um, what are you developing?
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19:33:06 <oren> A terminal emulator/ssh/tcp client
19:33:11 <oren> In Visual Basic
19:33:30 <oren> to get my hand in VB again
19:33:49 <rdococ> we need some kind of esoteric basic
19:34:02 <oren> I think there are several
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19:39:52 <oren> Also there was a BASIC/Lisp hybrid that i can't recall the name of
19:40:09 <oren> oh yes. Heresy
19:40:58 <oren> https://github.com/jarcane/heresy
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19:50:23 <hppavilion[1]> Playing MC with my sister, so my presence will be thin
19:50:46 <oren> I'm writing a terminal emulator in Visual Basic. is this 1. awesome 2. horrible 3. both?
19:52:52 <myname> yeah, definitly both, but a bit more horrible than awesome, i think
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19:53:33 <b_jonas> oren: how feature complete do you want it to be? just a dumb terminal that support \r \n \b but no other control? more?
19:55:10 <pikhq> b_jonas: A terminal that fails to implement ANSI escapes kinda sucks.
19:55:33 <b_jonas> oren: and what library are you using to implement the ssh part?
19:55:54 <oren> I want it to implement as much as possible.
19:56:33 <pikhq> There's some real crazy terminal features that probably aren't worth implementing.
19:57:05 <pikhq> Such as tektronix graphics. :)
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19:57:12 <oren> I havent' got to the ssh part yet, I'm working on raw tcp
20:00:15 <pikhq> I practically guarantee you won't care to implement tektronix graphics. Though, if you really *must*, you could probably use xterm as a reference.
20:01:23 <oren> If I have to, I'll implement ssh myself. but it looks like .Net has an ssl interface
20:01:47 <pikhq> I dunno if that'll be helpful. SSH isn't SSL.
20:02:03 <pikhq> Though I imagine .Net is also exposing the crypto functions, which should help.
20:02:16 <oren> exactly what i'm thinking
20:02:18 <pikhq> The protocol's different, but the crypto is the same.
20:02:26 <pikhq> (for the most part)
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20:42:50 <stalem> hey guys quick q: is it normal for a lexer/parser to contain lots of if/then/else statements?
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20:43:39 <b_jonas> ais523: stalem mentioned that he's writing some sort of lexer or parser that uses separate recursive functions for each state, or something like that. I think you can help him.
20:44:05 <ais523> recursive descent, or recursive ascent?
20:44:09 <ais523> stalem: either that or switch statements
20:44:38 <ais523> lexers often are literally state machines; parsers tend not to be mathematically identical to state machines but have a lot of features in common
20:45:17 <stalem> yeah it's pretty much like that. thing is, i'm only at the first condition in the _preprocessor_ and i have already a nest building
20:45:25 <b_jonas> “<stalem> i'm thinking the lexer/tokenizer goes through the source character by character, depending on what character it detects, call a lexer function specific for each type of character related to the functions of the language”
20:45:39 <stalem> what's the key difference between a lexer and a parser then?
20:46:01 <ais523> stalem: a lexer is splitting the input into tokens, and traditionally takes a regular language as input; there's no "long-range" state
20:46:05 <stalem> i'm not too knowledgeable in all the terminology, but i'm gonna learn!
20:46:09 <ais523> you're just trying to recognise words / punctuation groups
20:46:21 <ais523> meanwhile, a parser is splitting a list of tokens into a nested structure, so it can do things like matching brackers
20:46:30 <b_jonas> a lexer recognizes a _sequence_ of tokens, a parser makes a _tree_ from a stream of tokens (sometimes called "symbols" in that context)
20:46:40 <ais523> and normally is based on a context-free language
20:46:52 <stalem> ah ok, so pipelined it would be lexer > parser > interpreter/compiler?
20:47:23 <ais523> actually often the lexer's implemented as a subroutine of the parser
20:47:32 <ais523> the parser calls the lexer whenever it needs more tokens
20:48:37 <stalem> i see. are there any obvious benefits to doing that rather than tokenize then pass the array to a parser?
20:49:36 <ais523> you don't need to allocate a temporary array for keeping the token list around
20:51:06 <stalem> very true. i'll tackle that hurdle when i get there. thanks for the wisdom!
20:51:41 <stalem> so in conclusion, this nesting isn't all that uncommon then? http://pastebin.com/kFNEhnRC
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20:52:35 <hppavilion[1]> insert clever greeting pun on the name "stalem" here!
20:52:56 <ais523> stalem: what you're writing there is basically a state machine
20:53:08 <ais523> just using separate variables rather than a single "state" variable, so it looks a bit different from normal
20:53:28 <ais523> this is pretty much what I expect to see in a lexer
20:54:25 <stalem> ais523: oh. well it's just the preprocessor but i guess i'm doing something right? when you mention state machine i get unsure. sheesh i feel i have so much to learn still hah
20:54:48 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: stalem's working on a lexer/parser
20:54:49 <b_jonas> what? I always thought "stalem" just stands for "stalemate"
20:54:52 <stalem> hppavilion: i'm trying and failing it seems
20:54:59 <ais523> it isn't explicitly using an FSM atm
20:55:01 <stalem> b_jonas: indeed it does
20:55:12 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: err, you do realise that like 99% of lexers are FSM-based?
20:55:29 <stalem> i'm just too old to be a n00b imo
20:55:46 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: stalem hasn't really started on the parsing portion yet
20:55:51 <hppavilion[1]> I know lexers are FSM based. I've written many in my life, all of which are regex-based
20:56:00 <b_jonas> stalem: you _could_ try to read a book about lexing and parsing though, if you're interested in this
20:56:03 <ais523> and yes, we know that unless the language is very simple, then a state machine is insufficiently powerful to parse it
20:56:25 <stalem> :O that was quick! how did i do that?
20:56:40 <hppavilion[1]> If it has parenthesis that must be matched, it needs at least a Stack Automaton
20:56:42 <stalem> b_jonas: i got a lot of free time, that's a great idea. could you recommend any good ones?
20:56:52 <fowl> I read fsm as flying spaghetti monster >.>
20:57:13 <ais523> fowl: that is also good at parsing, but harder to write
20:57:26 <b_jonas> stalem: I'm not really sure, because I've seen only a few such books, but
20:57:48 <b_jonas> let me find the two I've read recently when I realized I know too few about context-free parsing
20:58:02 <b_jonas> I still know too little, mind you, but the books are good
20:58:08 <stalem> b_jonas: heh fair enough!
20:58:25 <b_jonas> and I'd still want to learn more
20:58:49 <myname> i wrote a lexer for rail. it was fun
20:59:01 <stalem> not the optimal language, but i feel like learning stuff on my own at this time, with my uneducated arse, is gonan be a bit too much right now
20:59:25 <stalem> no idea actually. i understand python is really powerful though?
20:59:28 <hppavilion[1]> If so, you can makes something that looks like BNF pretty easily
20:59:46 <b_jonas> stalem: a deep but old classical book is Aho, Ullman, ''The theory of parsing, translation, and compiling''
20:59:48 <hppavilion[1]> It's dynamically typed, it has built-in maps, it has a bajillion libraries
20:59:58 <stalem> thing is, i should propably learn a bit more about processing streams of chars and tokens before i delve into BNF
21:00:07 <hppavilion[1]> It has ever operator overloading thing you would need
21:00:23 <stalem> b_jonas: thanks, adding to my notes!
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21:01:11 <hppavilion[1]> stalem: I recommend using Parser Combinators to generate an AST
21:01:17 <stalem> hppavilion[1]: by operation overloading do you mean overloading stuff like + etc?
21:01:38 <stalem> hm no i don't think it can no, but then again i havne't looked into it :P
21:01:50 <hppavilion[1]> But that's just because the only ways I know of parsing are Parser Combinators and the Shunting-Yard Algorithm (which only works for arithmetic expressions)
21:02:01 <hppavilion[1]> http://www.jayconrod.com/posts/38/a-simple-interpreter-from-scratch-in-python-part-2
21:02:23 <b_jonas> stalem: before that, I've read Hopcroft, Motwani, Ullman, ''Introduction to Automata Theory, Languages, and Computation''. This requires very few prerequisites and contains good explanations, but also covers a lot of theory-only non-practical stuff, like the double-exponential reduction to two-counter machines
21:02:24 <hppavilion[1]> It's easy to understand, because python looks like pseudocode
21:02:53 <b_jonas> I didn't learn too much of it, but it was remarkable to me because of the nice style it was written
21:04:29 <b_jonas> There's also Knuth's TAOCP volume 5 for lexing, and possibly volume 6 “God willing […] but only if the things I want to say about those topics are still relevant and still haven't been said” (according to Knuth)
21:04:46 <b_jonas> no wait, volume 5 is also about parsing
21:04:54 <b_jonas> well, I'm not sure how they're divided really
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21:08:06 <stalem> phew very much to take in and learn
21:08:32 <stalem> things is i gotta go now, up early tomorrow
21:08:54 <stalem> thanks for the great wisdom guys i appreciate your help!
21:09:14 <stalem> and for the book tips and links as well ofc
21:09:18 <b_jonas> someone should suggest other books though
21:09:21 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an Uber-Simple Imperative Langauge for learning the basics of programming
21:09:24 <b_jonas> because I only gave one useful book tip
21:09:36 <hppavilion[1]> It's for wrapping your head around concepts more than for being useful
21:10:10 <stalem> couldn't help you there sorry, domain terminology still also evades me
21:12:28 <b_jonas> stalem: what's your background? it may help someone suggest a more approperiate book
21:12:44 <JesseH> hppavilion[1], lua is neat
21:13:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm calling the Pythonic Imperative langauge BasiCode which is a very stupid name
21:13:30 <JesseH> You could call your language "B.A.L.I.C"
21:13:56 <JesseH> beginners all-purpose learn-stuff instruction code
21:14:26 <hppavilion[1]> Beginner's All-purpose Learning Tutorial Introduction Code perhaps?
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21:15:08 <hppavilion[1]> My ancestory is Norwegian, so that's an appropriate name
21:15:26 <hppavilion[1]> Beginner's All-purpose Learning Tutorial Imperative Code
21:15:55 <JesseH> i forgot what the last name i suggested stood for
21:16:31 <hppavilion[1]> beginners all-purpose learn-stuff instruction code
21:17:04 <hppavilion[1]> JesseH: Do you want to help me figure out what the language should look like?
21:18:55 <JesseH> I studied google docs in college for many years.
21:19:19 <fizzie> Oh, are you a Google PhDocs now?
21:19:31 <fizzie> `` words --esolangs 20 # more names
21:19:32 <HackEgo> best cola/m recurscript furse highfiverow goto++ philosophy divzeros bull suff muxcon ora dog chiewuddled bfjouse oddbal ora sendex.php pi ork
21:20:13 <fizzie> Somehow that manages to not look like 20 words, even though it is.
21:20:32 <JesseH> `` words --derplangs 20
21:23:32 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
21:24:00 <fizzie> `` words --finnish --swedish --norwegian --esolangs 20 # let's get some northern esolangs here
21:24:03 <HackEgo> maican mdpn sink 2iotackarttin velang smentrasseen bordinsomre expantuva hånds abc ars sydämpämmerar 6ix ojäädess ystelladadach kistavlöps kabitchica aukturein eleckey varm
21:24:10 <JesseH> `` words esolang # == derplang
21:24:12 <HackEgo> Argument "esolang" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
21:24:19 <JesseH> I dont understand this
21:24:51 <fizzie> It's just running shell commands. The command in question takes the above-listed flags, and a single non-flag argument, which is the number of words.
21:27:16 <ais523> `` words --esolangs 20
21:27:17 <HackEgo> toi udageunshacking smithb bitbit regexpl thue ane twiseporisp minimal bogu oddball thisesol sher hargh! brainfuck oof itflipt xigxag bare c-
21:27:35 <ais523> I am very amused at "brainfuck" showing up literally
21:27:47 <ais523> it must be a very common nonagraph in esolang names
21:28:12 <fizzie> Fun fact: "nonagraph" is a nonagraph.
21:28:29 <fizzie> Probably not a very common one.
21:28:30 <ais523> it's not necessarily a real word, I tried my best to reverse-etymologise one though
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21:45:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43976&oldid=43441 * 96.59.227.171 * (+5) fixed link
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22:00:27 <oren> What's the netcat incantation to listen and send a string to whoever connects?
22:00:56 <oren> happy birthday izabera
22:03:01 <oren> I'ts wrikng !!!!1111
22:04:03 <oren> I successfully sent "Hello, Wor" to my terminal
22:05:21 <oren> Still needs a ton of work
22:12:56 <hppavilion[1]> So I'm making a Terminal/CLI/Shell/whatever based on Data Structures
22:13:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm looking for the best data structures to include
22:15:29 <fizzie> Splay trees, mostly because of the nomenclature.
22:15:42 <hppavilion[1]> One where you declaratively define machines that perform the task for you
22:15:52 <fizzie> Splaying involves zig, zig-zig and zig-zag steps.
22:16:30 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going for more abstract data structures than implementations
22:17:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just being horribly inconsistent with what I choose
22:17:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going by the general rule that their design has to be more abstraction-based than based on how you concretely implement it
22:19:41 <fizzie> Well. I was going to say Bloom filters next, because I hear they're very trendy, but that too might not be "abstract" enough by your definitions. It's just a particular kind of probabilistic set.
22:20:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might actually have enough Data Structures already :P
22:21:36 <hppavilion[1]> Array, Vector, LinkedList, SkipList, Stack, Queue, Deque, Tape, Set, Bag, BinaryTree, Tree, Graph, BloomFilter, Database
22:22:23 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZigZag_%28software%29
22:22:37 <MDude> Also, how is BloomFilter a kind of data structure?
22:24:00 <MDude> But I don't know anything about it other than it sharing a name with a type of image editor filter?
22:24:27 <MDude> And Wikipedia says nothing.
22:24:50 <MDude> Oh wait no here it is.
22:24:56 <MDude> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom_filter
22:25:14 <MDude> Yeah, I was just letting you know I found it.
22:29:46 <fizzie> There was something really fancy about how to one-pass count an approximation of top-k (per frequency) elements from a stream. It was something related to a count-min sketch, I think, but fancier. I just can't find it any more.
22:30:40 <fizzie> Maybe it was this thing: https://icmi.cs.ucsb.edu/research/tech_reports/reports/2005-23.pdf
22:30:43 <fizzie> Getting a bit irrelevant here, but anyway.
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22:43:42 <shachaf> randomized data structures aren't irrelevant here
22:44:09 <shachaf> and CMS et al. are great hth
22:53:15 <hppavilion[1]> What is the name of the data structure that is like a binary tree, but where the left child of the right child of a given node is the same node as the right child of the left child of that same node?
22:56:37 <myname> so, basically you get one more child per depth, i don't think that's interesting
22:57:01 <hppavilion[1]> I just want to know what it's called if it's a reall thing
23:03:46 <fizzie> Arguably, Pascal's Triangle has that sort of structure.
23:07:14 <MDude> I would think it would mostly be good if you're using data representing a triangle.
23:07:28 <MDude> Much like a matrix is good for data representing a rectangle.
23:08:24 <|f`-`|f> hppavilion[1] biparental heap?
23:08:52 <hppavilion[1]> |f`-`|f: Possibly, but I don't think it need be a heap
23:09:12 <hppavilion[1]> Also, it isn't ALWAYS biparental, as you can see from (3) and (5) and (1) and (2)
23:09:16 <MDude> Pascal's Treeangle?
23:09:55 <hppavilion[1]> So does no one here know python and feel like _finally_ pumping out _some_ sort of EsOS?
23:10:26 <MDude> I don't know python.
23:12:00 <hppavilion[1]> For example, would you know how to make something that felt weird as shit?
23:12:46 <myname> do something [with file], punish, treat
23:14:09 <hppavilion[1]> It needs to be weird and be able to be implemented in Python :P
23:14:21 <MDude> I know how do design for weird, yeah.
23:14:31 <hppavilion[1]> I'm thinking use a completely different system of files from what anyone else has ever seen for starteers
23:15:00 <MDude> There's OSes I would like to make, but I ought to actually program more first.
23:15:07 <myname> that sounds more like an esoFS
23:15:44 <MDude> Rather than make OSes beore I have any idea how to make programs that do things other than let you use other programs.
23:15:52 <hppavilion[1]> I'm implementing this in Python since that's much easier
23:15:53 <myname> there are some interesting fses in the arch forums
23:16:10 <hppavilion[1]> If anyone anyday decides to implement it on a machine level, that'd blow my mind
23:16:18 <MDude> Also interesting ideas for shells.
23:17:02 <MDude> All code is to go in https://libraryofbabel.info/
23:18:10 <MDude> An infinite library, but it's all in lower case with only "," and "." for punctuation.
23:18:25 <MDude> So code would need to be in a language that can use just those.
23:19:16 <MDude> You can search for pages and make bookmarks, which makes it usable as a substitute for pastebin.
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23:36:18 <hppavilion[1]> myname, I don't think I got a clear answer. Would you like to help with the EsOS?
23:37:26 <myname> i'd like to, but i'm not sure if i'm that helpful
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23:39:08 <hppavilion[1]> myname: I'm sure you could be helpful. I mean, I'm useless, so...
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23:58:22 <MDude> Unless I can edit Google Drive without loggin in, I would prefer something else.
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00:40:17 <rdococ> what are vanilariables?
00:42:47 <MDude> The default state of flavor-based data?
00:43:17 <rdococ> so nothing to do with variables?
00:43:41 <MDude> Other flavors are mixed in to create other values.
00:44:11 <MDude> I just misreal variable's name as vanilariables for some reason.
00:44:38 <MDude> And thought "Hmm, vanilariables, like some kind of variable that's also ice cream?"
00:45:20 <variable> I will not deny that I am similar to ice cream
00:45:27 <oren> hmm I'm getting weird spaces at the beginning of my lines for some reason
00:45:49 <rdococ> maybe you need to fill those in with flake 95s
00:53:25 <oren> MsgBox("dammit", MsgBoxStyle.OkOnly)
00:53:40 <oren> printf debugging for the gui environment
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01:22:17 <oren> basic functionality!
01:22:32 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/hahahaha.PNG
01:25:28 <rdococ> how about an accept/reject FSM, but based on The Stanley Parable?
01:26:17 <rdococ> "When Stanley got to a set of three doors, he entered the middle door." or something in the code, so that if player doesn't pick middle door, player loses
01:26:35 <rdococ> or any other door you put
01:29:21 <izabera> oren: how long did it take?
01:31:25 <oren> I was at dinner between 18:45 and 20:45
01:31:46 <izabera> this doesn't really help because timezones and shit
01:31:48 <oren> so only about two hours and most of that was relearning VB
01:32:42 <oren> Now I'm gonna start doing colors, then I'll do ssh
01:33:15 <oren> right now I only have telnet-like connections
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01:36:29 <oren> actually first, how should a terminal react to each of the control characters?
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01:40:51 <izabera> printing crap and breaking everything is a common effect
01:40:56 <zzo38> SHIFT OUT will change to VT100 graphics and SHIFT IN to ASCII, although there are escape codes to change them.
01:41:40 <oerjan> oren: ^S should be as annoying as possible hth
01:41:59 <zzo38> LINE FEED of course does the line feed, and then HORIZONTAL TAB and CARRIAGE RETURN are a few other control character to consider for cursor move, and BELL of course to ring the bell (possibly the visual bell, which could be set by an option).
01:42:30 <oren> maybe I should open a message box on ^S then?
01:42:39 <izabera> please write a terminal where bell can't possibly be enabled
01:42:52 <oren> Warning: this is not supported
01:42:53 <izabera> not even if you actually try it
01:43:31 <oren> Well I don't currently do anything on bell
01:43:36 <izabera> most annoying feature ever immagined
01:43:46 <zzo38> You should add the option to enable the bell though
01:44:05 <izabera> add an option to disable the option that enables the bell
01:44:53 <oren> How about if I just show an icon of a bell in an unobtrusive location on bell
01:44:57 <zzo38> A compile-time option maybe, that would disable the option that enables the bell, then? If it is VB6 then it doesn't really support compile-time options as far as I know
01:45:53 <zzo38> But what I know is that if I was using it I would want to enable the audible bell
01:50:00 <oren> hmm... how about, there's no sound by default, but there is a menu option to turn it on, with an "are you sure?" dialog to prevent izabera from accidentally turning it on
01:50:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Commercial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43977&oldid=37013 * SuperJedi224 * (+5)
01:50:37 <zzo38> Maybe it can do, although if you don't want sound shouldn't you just mute the system sound? But you can implement that if you want to I suppose
01:50:38 <izabera> should ask "are you reeeeeeeeeally sure? yes no" and preselect the no option
01:51:24 <oerjan> i think the option to turn on should somehow check that there are no other people within shouting distance hth
01:52:28 <zzo38> I don't think so, it can't easily check and shouldn't. Preselecting the "no" option is easy though I believe the MsgBox function in Visual Basic can easily you can program which option is preselected.
01:52:54 <izabera> it should need two keys like nuclear rocket launchers
01:53:25 * izabera is totally not exaggerating
01:53:32 <zzo38> I agree though there should be the option to turn on/off the bell (and possibly also the option to change it to visual bell)
01:53:46 <zzo38> If ANSI music is supported, also the option to independently turn on/off music.
02:00:12 <pikhq> I think that BEL should ring an actual bell HTH.
02:01:10 <izabera> darth sidious used to send BELs to any terminal used by the rebel alliance
02:02:02 <zzo38> If your computer has an actual bell then yes, although in Windows you may make it to be up to the system sounds driver, I would think; just as in X you can just use XBell or XkbBell and then the system X server decides what to do with it.
02:04:22 <oren> VB has the global Beep function
02:05:13 <zzo38> Yes, use that to ring the bell if the user has not disabled it in the terminal configuration menu.
02:05:15 <oren> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/kz27k38z%28v=vs.90%29.aspx
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03:43:04 <Sgeo> "This book would have been printed on recycled paper if it had been printed at all, but since it’s a digital copy, it isn’t. I guess the electrons are recycled, technically."
03:46:15 <oren> I'm still getting used to the idea of
03:46:58 <oren> recycled paper, now youre telling me we recycle electrons
03:49:25 <oren> I'm also still getting used to these if statements like
03:50:00 <oren> If tcpclient Is Nothing Then
03:50:43 <oren> for some reason Is Nothing feels way more emphatic than == 0
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04:04:42 <oren> If Me Is Nothing Then Return False
04:05:08 <oren> that is perfectly cromulent VB code
04:06:15 <oren> Ok apparently that didn't solve the problem.
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05:17:05 <oren> Would it be more secure or less secure if I only implement the REQUIRED parts of ssh?
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06:30:41 <hppavilion[1]> I recommend a programming langauge that interprets SVG code
06:31:04 <izabera> they exist, they're called svg viewers
06:47:46 <zzo38> Well, I have had some ideas of what things I would want to see in a GUI-based program, which are different from what most programs do.
06:58:02 * oerjan is pretty sure his touchpad just clicked without him touching it
07:00:00 <hppavilion[1]> zzo38: I'd like to hear these ideas out of curiousity
07:00:17 <hppavilion[1]> I have strong interest in GUI at this particular hour
07:03:57 <zzo38> One thing would be in some program you could open the window and if you click it will type the coordinates into the command-line so you can type the other stuff too, it would probably be more useful than the existing ImageMagick GUI (normally ImageMagick does not need a GUI though)
07:05:14 <zzo38> As well as, in many kind of program since you have many mouse button you can use each one different function, left/middle/right button, it is more useful.
07:05:39 <zzo38> For other command though you can just use keyboard, but some thing is position you want to select on the screen or on the grid or whatever, mouse can help with it.
07:06:12 <zzo38> Some older UNIX programs do such thing and Athena scroll-bar and so on, but even though this is good idea many programs do not have it
07:10:30 <rdococ> I'd like to see a fully functional programming language without any textual coding required
07:10:57 <rdococ> Like a turing complete version of Folder.
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07:39:16 <zzo38> My best score on the "vs yourself" mode (this mode is a bit of a hack and is probably unintentional) is 2565 points, today. (It isn't very good)
07:40:56 <b_jonas> what game versys yourself?
07:41:49 <zzo38> The "Amoebax" game, one of the game in the Ubuntu package manager. I had to change the configuration file in order to set the key of both players to same keys, and then you can control both plays by one keys!
07:42:15 <b_jonas> left/middle/right... eh, I'm still not used to that. I press the right mouse button with my middle finger because I'm used to only two mouse buttons.
07:42:55 <b_jonas> don't some people press the three mouse buttons with three separate fingers?
07:45:17 <zzo38> I use different finger per button
07:45:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: for how many buttons?
07:46:11 <zzo38> With three mouse buttons.
07:46:54 <b_jonas> that is probably a better way to use the mouse, and if I wanted to do lots of mousing, I should try to get used to it too
07:47:02 <b_jonas> it might also depend on the mouse hardware though
07:47:09 <zzo38> Athena scrollbar work with all three buttons, and i3-wm can also be configure to use all three buttons when clicking on the title-bar (I have done that too; left-button activates, middle-button switch between floating/tiling, right-button display the protocol/signal menu; I have keybindings for these functions too)
07:47:25 <myname> i don't think this actually matters
07:50:20 <zzo38> I would prefer the mouse without wheel though.
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10:46:04 <b_jonas> hmm, so M:tG has color indicators, including a two-color indicator on at least one card, but no colorless indicator, so that still has to go to an ability?
10:46:30 <b_jonas> mind you, Transguild Courier also has an ability
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11:21:32 <b_jonas> great, there are now new writeups about the icfp contest
11:28:05 <fungot> b_jonas: about halfway through. it helped me concentrate on getting your code working on those few and rare occasions when it was introduced somewhere between fnord
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11:38:52 <fizzie> It was there the whole time.
11:39:38 <HackEgo> sttcoin kceptanthebecoin furgcoin posicoin vlasscoin lispaghcoin 0x6coin eturcoin byiotenzacoin chencoin javitycoin nadirequiemacoin ///coin glangenomiallycoin aienswertrecoin rwlercoin abccoin cyclocoin tedilucoin zlviicoin
11:40:54 <b_jonas> `perl -eprint 10*6.3e6*5.5e3
11:41:01 <b_jonas> `perl -eprintf"%e" 10*6.3e6*5.5e3
11:41:01 <HackEgo> Number found where operator expected at -e line 1, near ""%e" 10" \ (Missing operator before 10?) \ syntax error at -e line 1, near ""%e" 10" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
11:41:04 <b_jonas> `perl -eprintf"%e",10*6.3e6*5.5e3
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12:49:01 <oren> hmm noone answered my question... If I only implement what is REQUIRED or MUST in the ssh standard, would my implementation be more secure or less secure?
12:50:52 <izabera> larger amount of features != improved security
12:52:07 <oren> except that there might be a more secure cipher than the required on which is optional?
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13:15:01 <stalem> greetings to anyyone awake
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13:39:45 <stalem> so what's going on in the lives of the esoterics?
13:55:54 <stalem> b_jonas: continuing from yesterday/before, my only background is the internet. i have no education in the matters so i guess basic literature would be best
13:56:58 <stalem> @tell ais523 hey thanks for pointing out my use of several state variables. i switched to an enum and the code is much less cluttered and has better overview!
14:11:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeathScript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43978 * YourDeathIsComing * (+1602) Created page with "DeathScript is an esoteric programming language created by [[User:YourDeathIsComing]]. It operates on only 3 variables. <br /> <br /> === Commands === The commands are *outpu..."
14:14:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DeathScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43979&oldid=43978 * YourDeathIsComing * (+9)
14:15:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:YourDeathIsComing]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43980&oldid=43952 * YourDeathIsComing * (+22)
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15:09:32 <b_jonas> I was wondering how come Magic: Origins had five common artifacts. that seems a strange occurance. but I think it's because the next block has eldrazi and so will have very few common artifacts, possibly none.
15:09:48 <b_jonas> so basically it's balancing out the next two sets in standard.
15:15:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43981&oldid=43881 * 72.74.32.143 * (+52)
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16:07:29 <quintopia> myname: the creator of deathscript is clearly a beginner. Doesn't know how to implement forms of flow control. It'll be a good language to implement in other languages (like deadfish) because of the minimal complication. (though deadfish is simpler and less stateful, so maybe this would be a "level 2")
16:08:08 <quintopia> actually, "level 3" because "level 1" is rot13 and thue-morse. "level 0" is cat.
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16:20:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43982&oldid=43981 * SuperJedi224 * (+348)
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16:31:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43983&oldid=43982 * SuperJedi224 * (+147) /* Instructions */
16:33:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43984&oldid=43983 * SuperJedi224 * (+89)
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16:40:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43985&oldid=43984 * SuperJedi224 * (+36)
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16:55:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43986&oldid=43985 * SuperJedi224 * (-4) /* Instructions */
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17:09:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43987&oldid=43986 * SuperJedi224 * (+222)
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17:29:54 <HackEgo> olist 1001: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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20:21:27 <tswett> Was it boily who started this nick–greeting blend trend?
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20:28:04 <oerjan> <b_jonas> um... no? <-- i'm pretty sure fungot was entirely accurate. at least the first sentence.
20:28:05 <fungot> oerjan: full numeric tower, you will end up doing as my practice for smalltalk is rewriting one of our sgi indy boxes.) to get the design down in the muddy grass to look through
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20:30:34 <int-e> tswett: 2011-08-31 has: 20:45:28: <elliott> helo oerjan 20:45:31: <elliott> heloerjan
20:30:46 * int-e swats oerjan ------#####
20:31:09 * oerjan dodges int-e's fake mega-swatter
20:31:38 <stalem> i thought mondays are always idle days?
20:33:13 <stalem> fungot's a markov chain right?
20:33:13 <fungot> stalem: its 100% pure html/ xml built in functions
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20:33:28 <stalem> hm are you sure fungot?
20:34:46 <oerjan> @tell oren <oren> hmm noone answered my question... If I only implement what is REQUIRED or MUST in the ssh standard, would my implementation be more secure or less secure? <-- probably depends. istr the recent major tls (?) vulnerability happened only to sites implementing a downgrading-to-obsolete-version feature
20:35:33 * int-e . _ _ _|_ _ /######|
20:35:33 * int-e . <_ | | | / | | <_' ==========<#######| oerjan
20:35:33 * int-e . ._> \|\| \_| | ._> \######|
20:35:47 * oerjan well and duly squashed
20:40:45 <stalem> when a lexer returns a token to a parser the token has an associated type iinw. but what is the purpose of that type if the parser can find out by looking at the token's value? or is the type checking faster, say if you use an enum?
20:41:12 <stalem> that should be iinm, don't know how that got inverted
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20:41:54 <stalem> or am i missing something?
20:41:55 <oerjan> lexer in what language
20:42:18 <oerjan> having types improves code reliability, in general
20:42:34 <oerjan> but i don't think it's obligatory
20:42:57 <stalem> i'm coding in c#. ok so they're not an integral part of the parser
20:44:08 <stalem> it's just that i'm thinking about the case of handling opening/closing parens. either i have a lot of different token types, one for opening, one for closing etc...
20:44:51 <stalem> which leads to cluttered code and a lot of switch cases. or, i have general types, but the parser must still ultimately check the value, making the type obsolete in the first place?
20:45:03 <oerjan> in haskell's parsec, there's a lot of types but i think if you use a lexer there's only one for it.
20:46:09 * oerjan thinks he's really not familiar with whatever c# does
20:46:38 <oerjan> although it's a language with objects and subtyping, which changes the options
20:47:13 <oerjan> stalem: i am guessing the types are just so you can handle several lexer results in common, then
20:48:34 <oerjan> i think in C flex parsers, token types are usually just enums. oh hm maybe that's what C# uses types for too
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20:48:50 <stalem> hm i'm feeling silly now asking questions when i don't fully grasp the concept i think
20:49:00 <stalem> i did think of using enums as types tho yeah
20:49:04 <oerjan> stalem: perhaps you should think of the type as just a first coarse division
20:49:56 <stalem> i guess that makes sense. i could also be overthinking this, it's what i do. like i get this feeling my code isn't written "correctly", even tho it does like intended
20:49:57 <oerjan> in flex iirc, it's common to have one enum value for each reserved token, but you'd still have just one type shared for all "identifiers" since they are user named
20:50:19 <stalem> maybe you could call me a perfectionist i dunno
20:50:50 <stalem> could you describe the difference of what you mean by enum and types? cos i'm getting a bit confused now
20:51:05 <stalem> i thought i could use enums AS types?
20:51:27 <stalem> oh no wait sorry i get it now, you're talking about a tool now yes, flex
20:51:47 <oerjan> um i'm mixing a bit here, because C doesn't have subtypes so has to use enums to encode things
20:51:55 <stalem> maybe i'm going the rough path then, writing my code from scratch?
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20:54:54 * stalem dives into it and hopes to return unscathed
20:55:24 <oerjan> i dunno, i think maybe everyone should write a lexer by hand once before going on to tools. i suspect your language's lexing isn't that complicated anyhow. :)
20:58:34 <stalem> that's what i thought as well! if i'm gonna learn tools, i need to know what a lexer/parser does, exactly how BNF is written etc and what better way to learn but doing it yourself?
20:59:40 <stalem> nah it should be fairly easy i hope it resembles lisp quite a bit. it's a simple script i designed for simple natural language generation http://pastebin.com/gnd67AKg
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21:01:43 <stalem> not sure yet if {x y z w} should be if x _ends_ with y or _contains_ y
21:03:10 <stalem> after a quick googling that would be quite interesting
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21:04:47 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: ah i remember such keys from some books my family had - fishes and trees/shrubs, at least
21:05:12 <stalem> (<boolean exp> <jump adress true> <jump adress false>)
21:05:28 <hppavilion[1]> At first I thought a Dichotomous key was basically a Decision Tree
21:05:49 <stalem> reminds me of bytebytejump
21:05:59 <hppavilion[1]> Then I remembered that, /technically/, if you /really/ wanted to, you /could/, in /theory/ loop a question
21:06:49 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: now i'm imagining an xkcd with such a looping key
21:07:12 <oerjan> i guess that would be essentially a flowchart, though
21:07:33 <oerjan> and he's done plenty of those, i think?
21:10:36 <hppavilion[1]> Could a system for defining an infitite finite-state machine be TC?
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21:12:29 <hppavilion[1]> How does one store a flowchart as plaintext I wonder?
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21:26:17 <tswett> stalem: I don't see any reason for the lexer to provide any type information along with the tokens it provides.
21:27:34 <tswett> Just have it yield a bunch of things of type "Token" or something; the lexer's job doesn't involve interpreting the tokens in any way.
21:27:38 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: well, "infinite finite-state machine" is a contradiction in terms; it'd just be an "infinite-state machine".
21:27:45 <shachaf> Huh, timecube.com expired.
21:28:07 <oerjan> shachaf: the end times for sure
21:28:11 <tswett> And a Turing machine *is* a type of infinite-state machine.
21:28:55 <oerjan> the four end times of the apocalypse
21:29:27 <oerjan> in a single rotation of you know what
21:29:37 <shachaf> fungot: I'd like to see you trained on timecube.com
21:29:38 <fungot> shachaf: it seems to me that a list would be car of mumble frotz.
21:29:48 <shachaf> fungot: We are all educated stupid.
21:29:48 <fungot> shachaf: did irp get mentioned now? can i borrow 26.7% of the rayon textile production of the indonesian fnord?
21:32:24 <oerjan> i guess we will have no place to put fungot's important revelation, then.
21:32:24 <fungot> oerjan: rpn is fun too. have you considered changing your nick a bit? i mean, a mailing list one time :)
21:34:20 <fizzie> oerjan: Well, have you?
21:34:33 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have suggestions for a new nick for them?
21:34:33 <fungot> fizzie: can be :p ( /me hunts) don't like spoon feeding. and we know that.
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21:37:18 <stalem> *thanks that should make things a bit easier
21:37:54 <shachaf> fungot: what should my nick be
21:37:54 <fungot> shachaf: i'm only discussing interpretters here. ( just wording changes so as to preserve anonymous access in mit systems. i'm specifically interested in the quality of the individual to choose the exact file he wanted to actually write some programs in shakell?
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21:41:20 <oerjan_nope> `learn Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
21:41:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'indonesia': Indonesia is a large island country in Asia and the world's most populous muslim country. Its major export is rayon textile from the Indonesian fnord.
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22:31:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Loader]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43988&oldid=43987 * SuperJedi224 * (+546)
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22:42:12 <tswett> I found some web application once that would perform sentiment analysis on my tweets.
22:42:22 <tswett> According to the application, my most negative tweet ever was about Wikia.
22:42:45 <tswett> Now, it just so happens that right after that tweet, I tweeted: "That tweet should be easy for sentiment analysis bots to handle."
22:54:18 <oerjan_nope> tswett: obviously the bot just cheated and read your next message
22:54:27 <tswett> Well, there was a previous tweet saying something like: "I'm really glad I set my browser not to run Flash by default. It makes a lot of web sites much less annoying."
22:55:17 <tswett> And my next tweet was something like: "But not Wikia. Even with Flash disabled, being on Wikia is a really annoying experience."
22:59:30 <Sgeo_> Oh I was scrolled up, oops
23:01:56 <tswett> "A God so stupid that he claims only a single day rotation of Earth - while my Cubic Wisdom has allowed me to create 4 simultaneous days within a single Earth rotation."
23:02:07 <tswett> Wow, I never knew that Gene Ray CREATED the Time Cube.
23:03:26 <tswett> Now, something I'm not clear on.
23:03:40 <tswett> Is the Time Cube a cube? Does it have corners? If it has corners, how many corners does it have?
23:05:49 <HackEgo> os is the accusative plural of us.
23:06:36 <oerjan_nope> it may also be a municipality in norway hth
23:07:06 <oerjan_nope> `learn_append os Also a municipality in Norway.
23:07:08 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/o: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'o': Also a municipality in Norway.
23:07:15 <HackEgo> Also a municipality in Norway.
23:07:31 <fizzie> My understanding was that it was a cube, and had 4 corners.
23:07:35 <fizzie> But I'm no Time Cube expert.
23:08:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
23:09:12 <oerjan_nope> `le/rn os Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
23:09:24 <HackEgo> os is the accusative plural of us.
23:09:47 <HackEgo> wisdom/os \ wisdom/ostrich
23:09:58 <oerjan_nope> `le/rn os/Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
23:10:10 <HackEgo> Os is the accusative plural of us. Also a municipality in Norway.
23:11:10 <tswett> Aww, http://www.thewisesthuman.com/ is also expired.
23:11:23 -!- oerjan_nope has changed nick to oerjan.
23:12:00 <shachaf> fizzie: are you a lambda cube expert
23:13:21 <oerjan> or can he polymorph into one
23:14:51 <shachaf> what's with these one-page olists
23:18:53 <APic> Ring of Polymorph ♥
23:21:17 <tswett> "Teaching that a Cube has '6 sides' with no top & bottom, induces an evil curse that pervades all academic institutions."
23:21:38 <tswett> Yeah, I hate it when people teach that a cube has six sides with no top and bottom.
23:22:29 <oren> http://www.rfc-archive.org/getrfc.php?rfc=2410
23:57:07 -!- drdanmaku has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).