00:02:55 <b_jonas> damn, I only wanted to implement a small part of this library, with only the functions I need
00:03:08 <zzo38> Of what library is it?
00:03:23 <b_jonas> but it turns out that I'm implementing like over half of the functoins,
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00:04:04 <b_jonas> because either I need that function, or it's a function that's trivial to implement once I figured out and implemented another similar one, so I'm implementing it immediately because it would be more difficult to figure out the implementation later
00:04:40 <zzo38> Still it can help if it is publish later on so that other people can look too, I suppose
00:04:47 <zzo38> But, what library is it, and what function is it?
00:04:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: another XMM vector wrapper like Agner Fog's vectorclass library or eigen's packagemath or that new library called "VC" (unimaginatively)
00:05:01 <b_jonas> this one has a different interface and somewhat different scope from those
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00:05:44 <b_jonas> specifically, right now I'm implementing only the operations of XMM vectors of 8 and 16 bit wide integer types, because I don't need 32 and 64 wide
00:06:37 <b_jonas> and I'm targetting only one cpu type
00:06:41 <b_jonas> some of these might change later
00:06:58 <b_jonas> the api tries to look very different from vectorclass though
00:09:04 <b_jonas> this is why I mentioned #define Z ) const { return
00:09:10 <b_jonas> but that's a joke, I'm not really doing that
00:09:20 <b_jonas> I'm using all kinds of complicated template tricks instead
00:10:13 <b_jonas> as in, to avoid duplication of a few common functions between 8 and 16 bit wide integers (and possibly other classes in the future), I've introduced two extra template classes
00:10:53 <b_jonas> (there are more extra classes and class templates for other utility purposes)
00:12:09 <quintopia> @tell boily Have to cancel wednesday. A friend from far away will be in town for exactly one day for the next >6 months, and did not find out that day was tomorrow until today.
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00:30:27 <b_jonas> All this ugliness I have to write because there's no library that does excatly what I want, but at least this will be reusable (at least for me) later
00:34:25 <b_jonas> (the difficult part of this library will be finding all the bugs though)
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01:14:41 <b_jonas> ok, let's see what happens
01:16:12 <b_jonas> hmm, did it go to an infinite loop, or only very slow?
01:17:59 <b_jonas> I think a condition is negated or something
01:19:05 <b_jonas> yep, it seems so... but which one
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01:27:37 <b_jonas> oh no, I'm inviting the raptors by adding a goto
01:30:42 <b_jonas> ah, I can see the reversed condition
01:36:06 <b_jonas> ah ok, it depends on the input image size
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01:51:39 <b_jonas> oh great, found the first bug in the library
01:51:43 <b_jonas> this one luckily was not well hidden
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02:12:21 <b_jonas> but the memory corruption is still in my code
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02:58:38 <MDude> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1TAOKIRV2d4
02:58:43 <b_jonas> argh! I still don't see where the memory corruption bug is
02:58:52 <b_jonas> I must be writing past an array somewhere
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03:44:01 <MDude> I ought to try making something based on Oragami when I get around to 3D game stuff.
03:44:44 <MDude> This is what happens when I wait to say a thing. Other things happen first.
03:46:23 <b_jonas> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
03:46:37 <b_jonas> I marked a variable that gives the dimension of a dynamic array as static when
03:46:43 <b_jonas> that dimension should change
03:46:51 <b_jonas> THAT'S WHAT CAUSED THE CORRUPTION
03:47:48 <b_jonas> I'VE BEEN DEBUGGING THIS FOR HOURS NOW
03:57:14 <FreeFull> b_jonas: Sounds like you should have used a better language
03:57:41 <b_jonas> it wasn't the fault of the language
03:57:44 <b_jonas> it was the fault of my code
03:58:27 <FreeFull> If you've used a language without dynamic-sized stack-allocated arrays, it wouldn't have happened
04:02:07 <b_jonas> FreeFull: this wasn't a stack-allocated language, but a heap-allocated one
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04:07:47 <Jafet> Jorge Luis "Mal" Borges
04:07:50 <FreeFull> b_jonas: Why were you even declaring a static variable
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04:09:10 <b_jonas> FreeFull: I think I left it over from some earlier version of the code where that array was of a fixed size, and I didn't notice it was declared static when I changed it.
04:09:26 <FreeFull> b_jonas: But, why wasn't it const
04:09:47 <b_jonas> it should have been just const int
04:10:36 <FreeFull> Ok, again, why was it static in the first place when you first wrote it?
04:11:22 <b_jonas> because it was a compile-time constant
04:15:52 <FreeFull> But that's not what static means
04:30:24 <fowl> If debugging is the process of removing bugs, then programming must be the process of putting them in. Edsger W. Dijkstra [citation needed]
04:33:17 <MDream> That would leave "bugging" a redundant word though?
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04:59:46 <fowl> MDream, dunno, english is my fourth language after clucks, chirps and whistles
05:44:26 <int-e> fungot: where are you?!
05:44:38 <fnordbot> int-e: races in all of the galaxy, a device which made this starship, one day, a student at the university of maximegalon, who pursued a brilliant marble-sanded beaches of santraginus v, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it. " yeah," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," a voice said " i seem to be having tremendous difficulty in finding
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05:58:16 <int-e> Walpurgisnacht: what you see is what you get
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13:21:49 <rbryan> So... if I tried to write a semi-useful language for fun but it turned out to be painful to program in is this the right place for it?
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13:25:04 <rbryan> https://github.com/rbryan/rplisp
13:25:11 <rbryan> It's a reverse polish lisp.
13:25:42 <rbryan> https://github.com/rbryan/rplisp/blob/master/factorial.rpl
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13:35:01 <mroman_> there's no such thing as terrible
13:35:19 <mroman_> terribly boring derivatives are terrible
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13:36:38 <boily> guys, guys! we're missing a very important ritual here!
13:36:45 <HackEgo> rbryan: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
13:36:50 <lambdabot> quintopia said 13h 24m 41s ago: Have to cancel wednesday. A friend from far away will be in town for exactly one day for the next >6 months, and did not find out that day was tomorrow until today.
13:37:12 <boily> @tell quintopia AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! oh well.
13:38:35 <mroman_> is reverse polish == stack based?
13:39:38 <boily> I think if you want to be a purist, RP /= stack, but in practice they are about the same.
13:39:39 <mroman_> stlisp allowed prefix, postfix and infix
13:40:02 <mroman_> (add 5 5) == (5 5 add) == (5 add 5)
13:40:38 <mroman_> (add 5 5) == (5 5 add) == (5 add 5) == add(5 5) == 5 5 (add) == 5 5 add () == 5 (5 add) == add 5 (5) and many more
13:41:00 <boily> that is horrible. what if “5” is a function?
13:41:17 <mroman_> because it's an integer literal
13:41:27 <Taneb> mroman_, what if it were (add x y)
13:41:50 <Taneb> What if x is a function?
13:42:01 <mroman_> then you'd have to write (add (x) y)?
13:42:30 <mroman_> ) carries out the operation
13:42:54 <mroman_> would be the same thing as (add (x) 5)
13:44:09 <mroman_> ) pops something from the operations-to-carry-out stack and carries the operation out
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13:51:16 <rbryan> This one is stack based.
13:52:05 <rbryan> also gtg. I've places to be. I will certainly be back later though. Sorry my first visit was so short lived.
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17:36:07 <oren> I have a day off!
17:36:26 <oren> ... which I have spent half of sleeping
17:36:58 <oren> ooh, reverse polish lisp!
17:38:11 <shachaf> why does canada celebrate the 4th of july three days early twh
17:39:34 <oren> because our constitutionwas signed by the Queen on that day... or somthing. i'll look it up
17:43:48 <oren> Yah, the British North America Act was passed by the British parliament and signed by Queen Victoria on July 1 1867
17:44:43 <oren> It united Upper Canada, Lower Canada, New Brunswick and Nova Scotia into the Dominion of Canada. My father's generation called it Dominion Day
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17:46:01 <HackEgo> bfjoust/bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
17:46:12 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
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17:50:36 <HackEgo> twnh/twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help.
17:52:25 <shachaf> `learn_append twnh It is provided by a toe with no hair.
17:52:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'twnh': twnh is dubious hambiguitous help that will or will not be help. It is provided by a toe with no hair.
17:52:59 <shachaf> you see, i've been through the desert on a toe with no hair
17:52:59 <oren> Queen Victoria is the grandmother of the current monarchs of England, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Spain.
18:06:28 <coppro> the Constitution Act, 1982 was proclaimed on April 17
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18:22:20 <oren> and there were a bounch of constitution acts in between, esentially whenever a new province joined
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18:49:17 <boily> coppro: chelloppro! happy Canaday!
18:49:32 <coppro> happy canada day to you!
18:49:42 <shachaf> boily: <shachaf> why does canada celebrate the 4th of july three days early twh
18:49:59 <HackEgo> for further details/who knows
18:50:44 <boily> shellochaf! wisdom of boily?
18:50:53 <HackEgo> bookwatching/bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object.
18:51:36 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/bookwatching
18:51:38 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo boily
18:51:47 <HackEgo> qdbfmt/qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
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18:56:32 <HackEgo> roujo's relevant info/That information is stored in an unnamed metal cabinet in one of the top floors of an obscure administrative building with a number that you probably never heard of.
18:56:36 <shachaf> ok that might be a bit too much
18:56:58 <coppro> boily: also happy moving day
19:01:20 <boily> ghah! this is bright!
19:02:04 <boily> coppro: the neighbour I have never seen is moving today. there are noises and moving appliances.
19:02:39 <HackEgo> coonspirator/A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
19:02:58 <HackEgo> 231) <ais523> gah, who'd have thought removing concurrency from algol could be so difficult
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19:18:23 <HackEgo> sleep/Sleep is for the weak.
19:19:14 * shachaf is tempted to introduce some cleverness into wisdom entries rather than just using cat
19:43:41 <boily> quintopia: for now I don't know exactly when. perhaps some time around July 11?
19:44:18 <quintopia> sounds good to me. did everything install okay?
19:45:34 <boily> I haven't todayed following your @massage, but it'll work.
19:46:10 <boily> (besides, getting some pressure from cow orkers to steam with them too. the advantage they have over you is that they can directly wallop me around the head due to physical proximity.)
19:46:37 <boily> we should also meet sometime this summer.
19:46:59 <HackEgo> 743) <Lumpio-> STOP CAPITALIZING <Lumpio-> It's making me feel weird <shubshub> the I has to be capitilized its proper grammer
19:48:13 <boily> not our proudest `quote moment there...
19:52:26 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom/It is now.
19:52:34 <HackEgo> le/rn/le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
19:52:59 <HackEgo> wfraatw/A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
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20:00:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Bojidar-bg * New user account
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20:50:05 <boily> caveat translator: don't expect this sentence to be grammaticatitatively correct, much less to make sense. the ramen are still delicious hth
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21:20:24 <shachaf> did a squatter get it for good
21:20:33 <oerjan> and Gregor has been idle for 10 days
21:20:45 <oerjan> (and that's only because he pinged out then)
21:20:56 <shachaf> Hmm, whois is still showing it registered to Gregor.
21:21:49 <oerjan> i guess it just hasn't propagated
21:23:48 <oerjan> i get a page with a lot of strange links and "This Domain Name Has Expired - Renewal Instructions." at the bottom
21:24:48 <oerjan> and now it refuses to reload. oh well. tunes ->
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21:40:53 <shachaf> pikhq: mountain view is that awful?
21:41:15 <pikhq> WTF on codu.org expiry.
21:41:28 <shachaf> You're not finding it awful?
21:41:36 <pikhq> I'm not in Mountain View yet.
21:41:48 <pikhq> It looks like my move is next week.
21:41:53 <oerjan> awfulle and artifycial
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22:08:33 <oerjan> <oren> Queen Victoria is the grandmother of the current monarchs of England, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Spain. <-- i'm pretty sure that's at least one generation off, i think two.
22:09:18 <oerjan> harald <- olav <- maud <- edward <- victoria iirc
22:11:39 <oerjan> @tell oren <oren> Queen Victoria is the grandmother of the current monarchs of England, Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Spain. <-- that's two generations off for norway hth
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22:17:39 <oerjan> hm the swedish king is descended from victoria in two ways
22:24:18 <oerjan> @tell oren three off for spain, although their king just changed.
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22:41:42 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
22:42:12 <boily> @tell oren monarchy is difficult. beware the moving pineapples.
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22:54:48 <boily> oerjan: pineapples hth
22:54:50 <coppro> pikhq: have you played riichi?
23:42:00 <boily> I seem to have accidentaly entered a ziggurat, and where's elliott.
23:46:33 <boily> http://www.wattagnet.com/Six_pig__poultry_alternative_feed_ingredients.html
23:49:48 <oerjan> i do not know where elliott is, he was last sighted on the wiki by accident.
23:57:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43369&oldid=43245 * Oerjan * (+0) /* General languages */ order
23:59:02 <shachaf> what do bananas and pineapples have in common
00:01:16 <nys> they're both wired with microphones
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00:01:37 <oerjan> did the wiki just croak again
00:01:58 <oerjan> just as i've loaded up my largest IE tab collection ever
00:02:07 <boily> nys: I'm very tempted to mapole you, but after having seen corn microphones I morally can't.
00:02:25 <oerjan> that's got to look corny
00:02:35 <nys> happy maple day
00:03:03 <boily> but then, I have absolutely no qualms nor any scruples when it comes to oerjan.
00:04:46 <oerjan> oh wait only some of the wiki pages didn't load, that D can mean either that or "Difference between revisions"
00:08:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43370&oldid=43358 * Oerjan * (+0) /* U */ There had to be one...
00:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SCRUBS4U]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43371&oldid=43030 * Oerjan * (+60) Some proofreading. Don't know what to do about Examples section.
00:23:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43372&oldid=43034 * Oerjan * (+50) unsigned
00:31:35 <oren> Y'know, I think it might be possible to hack Super Pitfall so as not to suck
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00:41:52 <tswett> A while back, I mused about the idea of a "polynomial type theory", which only lets you define functions whose growth rate is bounded above by a polynomial.
00:42:36 <tswett> The theory would let you define two different types of natural numbers, "unat" (natural numbers expressed in unary) and "bnat" (natural numbers expressed in binary or something equivalent).
00:43:00 <tswett> These wouldn't be interconvertible: you can't turn a bnat into the equivalent unat, because the function that would do so grows too quickly.
00:43:45 <tswett> The power function would be definable, but the most useful type it could have would be (bnat * unat) -> bnat or something.
00:45:23 <tswett> The function grows exponentially in the exponent, so you have to have it take the exponent in unary and output the result in binary in order for that to work.
00:47:03 <tswett> Now, it's obvious how to define lengths for a sum type or a product type, but how do you define lengths for a function type?
00:47:10 <tswett> I've concluded that in general, you just can't do it.
00:49:14 <boily> is Super Pitfall that bad?
00:51:46 <tswett> ...remind me why I concluded that? Hmmm.
00:51:57 <MDude> Compared to regular Pitfall?
00:52:30 <oren> its engine is only a little screwy, but the level design is atrocious
00:52:38 <MDude> I played it, and the game was not that fun.
00:52:40 <boily> wait. there are multiple pitfalls?
00:52:53 <MDude> Yes, but the first was for Atari.
00:52:55 <boily> tswett: probably because you attempted to do it, but it wasn't possible?
00:52:56 <oren> super pitfall is on NES
00:53:14 <MDude> I played a version of Pitfall on the PC.
00:53:16 <pikhq> There was also a Pitfall 2, right?
00:53:32 <MDude> Maybe Pitfall 2 is what I played.
00:53:42 <tswett> Well, I need to attempt again.
00:54:24 <tswett> What I do know is that the length function for a function type has to grow superexponentially in the degree of the function.
00:54:58 <shachaf> `wisdom superexponential growth
00:54:59 <HackEgo> mnoqy/mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
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00:56:12 <boily> shachaf: your wisdoms are beginning to sound like my chickens hth
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00:59:43 <tswett> Does `wisdom pay attention to is argument at all?
00:59:47 <tswett> `? superexponential growth
00:59:48 <HackEgo> superexponential growth? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:00:00 <shachaf> `wisdom superduperexponential growth
01:00:01 <HackEgo> just intonation/Bad-tempered people can be recognized by just intonation.
01:00:15 <HackEgo> Equal temperament is just intonation that's evenly spaced.
01:00:35 <oerjan> tswett: the problem is that you cannot give a length for the apply function
01:01:02 <oerjan> and you cannot define a length for its argument that makes the apply function polynomial
01:01:17 <tswett> `le/rn superexponential growth/Superexponential growth? SUPEREXPONENTIAL GROWTH?! HOLY CRAP!!!
01:01:19 <HackEgo> Learned «superexponential growth»
01:01:36 <tswett> oerjan: how do you know?
01:01:45 <tswett> The latter, in particular?
01:02:27 <tswett> A hypothetical apply function could have the type ((bnat -> bnat) * bnat) -> bnat.
01:02:27 <oerjan> tswett: imagine that time(apply(f,x)) <= (length(f)+length(c))^n
01:02:43 <shachaf> tswett: i don't get that wisdom entry
01:02:54 <shachaf> is it meant to be superexponential or something?
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01:03:45 <tswett> oerjan: by time do you mean length, and by c do you mean x?
01:04:23 <oerjan> the time it takes to run? that's usually what you're interested in for P
01:04:40 <oerjan> it should be bounded by a polynomial
01:05:16 <tswett> Well, what I said was "functions whose growth rate is bounded above by a polynomial".
01:06:08 <tswett> shachaf: well, it's an exaggerated reaction of astonishment at the concept of superexponential growth.
01:06:21 <oerjan> in that case, replace time() by absolute value
01:08:48 <tswett> So then what happens if abs(apply(f,x)) <= (length(f) + length(c))^n?
01:08:56 <tswett> Crap, I copied your error.
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01:11:10 <oerjan> tswett: well i claim you cannot have that, which means apply itself cannot be polynomial
01:11:45 <tswett> All right. And the reason for that is...
01:11:57 <tswett> If the function f has degree m, then n > m, right?
01:12:05 <tswett> So n must be a natural number which is greater than all natural numbers.
01:12:15 <tswett> Lemme see if I think that's right.
01:13:04 <tswett> Yes, that does sound right.
01:19:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43373&oldid=43079 * Oerjan * (+12) name fmt and links
01:22:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43374&oldid=43077 * Oerjan * (+4) name fmt and link
01:27:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43375&oldid=43111 * Oerjan * (+7) links
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01:30:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43376&oldid=43094 * Oerjan * (-62) formatting
01:37:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CLEB]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43377&oldid=43116 * Oerjan * (+7) intro fmt, link
01:39:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CRalphabet]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43378&oldid=43117 * Oerjan * (+6) bold
01:49:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43379&oldid=43144 * Oerjan * (+3) link, space
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01:54:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wordfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43380&oldid=43165 * Oerjan * (+45) unsigned
02:02:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43381&oldid=43186 * Oerjan * (+200) unsigned
02:02:45 <oerjan> fowl: PROOF PLZ THX TWH
02:04:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gulf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43382&oldid=43205 * Oerjan * (+10) standardificamation
02:05:27 <oerjan> shachaf: do toes without hair help when desert trekking inquiring minds would like to know
02:07:11 <shachaf> oerjan: hard to say, since i've never been through the desert on a toe with hair
02:07:24 <shachaf> i imagine it doesn't make too much of a difference
02:08:23 <shachaf> but i suppose it would be nice to receive hth
02:12:03 <tswett> Now, as for the class of all functions with at most a given degree...
02:13:48 <tswett> I think the class of all functions with degree at most n is a type, whose apply function has degree n+1.
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02:18:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumpback]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43383&oldid=43206 * Oerjan * (-1) grm
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02:20:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43384&oldid=43210 * Oerjan * (+8) fmt, link
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02:21:32 <zzo38> Let's see if you know these quiz of Canada Day and other Canadian laws: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/canada.day
02:23:41 <shachaf> zzo38: what's the best province?
02:24:10 <shachaf> I don't know the answers to most of these questions.
02:24:11 <zzo38> Some people say British Columbia, which is where I live. I absolutely don't know if it is true or not or if there is any one that can be called as a best province
02:24:45 <shachaf> You just said that some people say British Columbia. So how can you not know if it can be called a best province?
02:25:02 <zzo38> I mean I don't know if they are correct or if it is proper
02:26:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Esolang:Ye Olde Alchemist]]": Seems to have been created by error
02:27:09 <shachaf> How can birds sing louder than 50 decibels? Decibels are relative.
02:28:04 <zzo38> It doesn't mean people who write the laws would know
02:29:13 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you like using cents instead of decibels?
02:30:04 <zzo38> What do *you* think???
02:31:14 <shachaf> I think that's the sort of unusual unit you would enjoy using.
02:33:12 <shachaf> A cent is 1/1200th of a bit.
02:35:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Numberic Underload]]": Misspelling
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02:40:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43385&oldid=43278 * Oerjan * (+7) links, sp
02:42:21 <HackEgo> group/groups are just loops with the property of associativity
02:46:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cod]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43386&oldid=43316 * Oerjan * (+47) wikitable, link fmt
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02:48:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unc]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43387&oldid=43292 * Oerjan * (+1) sp
02:49:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43388&oldid=43387 * Oerjan * (+14) lc
02:53:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43389&oldid=43351 * Oerjan * (-24) bold, spacing, link fmt
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02:55:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Phase]]": Redirect from wrong namespace
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02:59:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lamb]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43390&oldid=43317 * Oerjan * (+4) link
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03:01:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noit o' mnain worb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43391&oldid=43323 * Oerjan * (+12) if it's hidden it's a spoiler
03:06:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shoelips]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43392&oldid=43333 * Oerjan * (+32) fmt, finish sentence
03:07:20 <HackEgo> culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
03:07:33 <shachaf> did that entry really have to end up messed up tdnh
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03:22:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMIL]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43393&oldid=43344 * Oerjan * (+61) proofreading
03:25:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mindfunc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43394&oldid=43367 * Oerjan * (-10) bold, link section fmt
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03:42:03 <HackEgo> group/groups are just loops with the property of associativity
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04:30:18 <Sgeo_> Do I need to do slist updates?
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04:57:54 <Taneb> Sgeo_, it's on a regular schedule now, and it's only us two
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06:15:44 <Sgeo_> RSS is dead, Google killed it
06:15:58 <Sgeo_> Embrace and extinguish
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06:56:04 <Taneb> It looks like it will be cooler today
06:58:40 <Taneb> I may be able to think
07:02:56 <mroman_> wtf is wrong with ^([0-9]+)(.*)$ not matching "13a"?
07:08:11 <mroman_> nothing. maybe I have some unprintable garbage in that string.
07:08:46 <pikhq> Are we dealing with BRE or ERE?
07:09:10 <pikhq> In BRE (as used by e.g. sed, grep by default), you need ^\([0-9]+\)\(.*\)$
07:09:22 <pikhq> Without the slash, in BRE ( matches itself.
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08:23:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: testing: not found
08:24:31 <NSA_> `Testing, 1, 2, 3,....
08:24:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Testing,: not found
08:25:01 <APic> NSA_: Epic win!
08:25:13 <APic> N$Ⓐ always scores in this cruel World!
08:25:28 <NSA_> Nah, I found a backdoor into the NSA.
08:25:34 <NSA_> See the underscore?
08:25:45 <NSA_> was already taken
08:26:26 <APic> 10:28:53 -!- _N$A_ Erroneous Nickname
08:26:37 <APic> Even the Trial counts!
08:26:48 <NSA_> I applied at the CIA, and the application process included uploading sample documents, so I put some ESOLANGS into the raw text.
08:28:28 <NSA_> And you people doubted me.
08:28:44 <NSA_> It's something new.
08:29:25 <fowl> oh zombiecheney
08:30:13 <fowl> i dont welcome you back
08:30:30 <NSA_> Doesn't matter whether I am welcomed or not, I am back.
08:30:42 <NSA_> Hence the name Zombie, can't kill me.
08:30:55 <fowl> no doubt to do some griefing
08:31:11 <NSA_> Part of the learning process.
08:32:21 <NSA_> All of these logs will add nicely to my collection.
08:33:47 <NSA_> I will be forwarding them all to glenn.greenwald courtesy of The Intercept
08:35:51 <NSA_> PinealGlandOptic
08:36:49 <NSA_> Signing off... beep beep boop...
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08:42:39 <NSA_> AnotherTest ???
08:44:02 <NSA_> [~Patashu@c27-253-115-204.carlnfd2.nsw.optusnet.com.au] has joined #esoteric
08:44:14 <NSA_> admin is not admin
08:45:14 <NSA_> It's an original Degas.
08:45:30 <NSA_> The good news is, the Machine is alive, the bad news is, it's pissed.
08:45:56 <NSA_> Fucking A, it's like a ghost town in here.
08:46:16 <NSA_> You talking to me?
08:46:21 <NSA_> You talking to me?
08:46:35 <NSA_> I don't see anyone else here, so you must be talking to me.
08:46:43 <NSA_> Make my day, sucka.
08:47:03 <NSA_> Edgar Degas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Degas Wikipedia Edgar Degas (US /deɪˈɡɑː/ or UK /ˈdeɪɡɑː/; French: [ilɛʁ ʒɛʁmɛ̃ ɛdɡɑʁ dəɡɑ]; born Hilaire-Germain-Edgar De Gas; 19 July 1834 – 27 September ... The Bellelli Family - Portraits at the Stock Exchange - Little Dancer of Fourteen Years Edgar Degas - The complete works www.edgar-degas.org/ Edgar Degas - Homepag
08:47:39 <NSA_> Intro on: computer code resolves into images: First Scene of my Script
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09:10:40 <Taneb> Well, I just ordered a COMPUTER SCIENCE BOOK
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09:22:37 <Taneb> (among other things)
09:23:08 <Taneb> "Introduction to Languages and the Theory of Computation"
09:26:19 <Taneb> Heh, I was getting worried that I might get in trouble because my laptop's charger cable has a sticker saying "Do not use after 12.06.14" (dd/mm/yy, I presume)
09:26:47 <Taneb> But then I realised the office's extension cord it is plugged into has a similar sticker saying "Do not use after 16.04.14"
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10:00:21 <Taneb> Writing Eclipse Extensions is "fun"
10:00:58 <Taneb> s/Extensions/plugins/
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11:00:14 <Jafet> Or maybe it's not.
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11:37:49 <Jafet> `unicode WEARY CAT FACE
11:38:00 <HackEgo> U+1F640 WEARY CAT FACE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 99 80 UTF-16BE: d83dde40 Decimal: 🙀 \ 🙀 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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13:39:02 <b_jonas> Hmm, I think this isn't one bug in my program, but two or three bugs interacting with each other.
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14:16:40 <mroman_> can you do "excluding" in regex?
14:16:59 <mroman_> I want stuff like */+-#@?!
14:17:12 <mroman_> so every non-letter that is not a digit and not a control character
14:18:59 <mroman_> Hm. Java has \p{Punct} for that
14:20:27 <scoofy> typically [^a-z] matches not a-z.
14:21:05 <mroman_> but that matches \00 as well
14:21:35 <mroman_> but that's most certainly not standard regex
14:21:42 <scoofy> then look up your regexp library's manual
14:21:56 <scoofy> which regexp are you talking about?
14:23:02 <scoofy> i guess [-*/+#@?!] would match what you want
14:23:24 <scoofy> i put - in front because it otherwise usually denotes a range
14:23:53 <scoofy> if you list chars between [], it will match those chars.
14:25:10 <scoofy> there aren't that many so you can list them.
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14:44:18 <mroman_> hm. Java regexes even have back-references
14:44:39 <int-e> irregular expressions
14:46:09 <mroman_> I think with mighty enough regexes you can even do parsing
14:50:10 <int-e> well, "mighty enough regexes" should be TC
14:51:27 <Taneb> int-e, isn't that just saying "sufficiently powerful language recognizers can recognize anything a Turing machine can"?
14:52:03 <int-e> Taneb: I was trying to subtly mock mroman_ :P
14:52:18 <int-e> anyway, yes it does.
14:52:35 <oerjan> parsing isn't quite the same as recognizing, though.
14:53:41 <mroman_> There are TC languages than can be recognized by regexp, and some that can't.
14:53:41 <ion> Someone should design an esolang named HELL ASK. Here’s its logo. https://wiki.haskell.org/wikiupload/7/75/Pure_Devil_Haskell.png
14:54:02 <Taneb> int-e, I read that as "HE'LL ASK"
14:54:14 <int-e> Taneb: and ion as int-e?
14:54:26 <shachaf> -n channels are confusing tdnh
14:55:08 <Taneb> My client really does not want to tab-complete ion
14:55:31 <ion> Taneb: Huh, weird. I see you just fine.
14:55:32 <shachaf> irssi tab-completes people who aren't in the channel if they send messages to it
14:55:47 <shachaf> ion is trying to create confusion and i'm trying to clear it up
14:55:49 <Taneb> Whereas I use Hexchat
14:56:07 <oerjan> which means i cannot use tab completion to check when HackEgo has one of its rejoining issues
14:56:15 <int-e> why is fungot so unstable these days?
14:56:32 <oerjan> int-e: it's turned british hth
14:57:04 <oerjan> ion: are you using codu's stalker logs
14:57:13 <int-e> I thought the british people were the very definition of stability...
14:57:39 <shachaf> `learn Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham.
14:57:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'hexchat': Hexchat is a variant of Smalltalk invented in Hexham.
14:57:46 <int-e> polite, never crying...
14:58:10 <oerjan> int-e: well have _you_ tried keeping a stiff upper lip when you don't have lips tdnh
14:58:16 <ion> oerjan: tunes.org stalker logs hth
14:59:07 <oerjan> ion: ok. btw codu has an actual stalking mode.
14:59:24 <oerjan> (it may not be called precisely that.)
14:59:43 <shachaf> good to hear that codu is back
14:59:47 <shachaf> does that mean Gregor is back too
15:00:48 <Taneb> oerjan, "stalker mode" hth
15:00:48 <oerjan> well presumably he did _something_ on july 1 to bring codu back
15:00:52 <oerjan> Guest62171: are you back?
15:02:26 <HackEgo> Ø/Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
15:02:43 <oerjan> i guess he may be using his own website even if he doesn't look at the channel.
15:03:04 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
15:03:53 -!- Froox has quit (Quit: *bubbles away*).
15:04:16 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's!wisdom!wisdom/"$1"!' bin/wisdom
15:04:23 <HackEgo> turkey/Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
15:04:39 <HackEgo> ostrich/Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
15:04:54 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, i was starting to get annoyed
15:05:04 <shachaf> oerjan: now you gotta handle plurals
15:05:05 -!- Frooxius has joined.
15:05:33 <oerjan> shachaf: i leave further enhancements as an exercise hth
15:05:56 <oerjan> mainly i also did it because i finally thought of a simple "fix"
15:09:27 <HackEgo> wisdom/` \ wisdom/`? \ wisdom/ \ wisdom/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ wisdom/? \ wisdom/?? \ wisdom/@ \ wisdom/\ \ wisdom/☃ \ wisdom/⊥ \ wisdom/⌨ \ wisdom/ \ wisdom/🐐 \ wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͠ͅ
15:09:48 <oerjan> i think that might work
15:09:57 -!- Froox has joined.
15:10:04 <HackEgo> cat: bin/Wisdom: No such file or directory
15:10:09 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom/"$1" -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
15:10:31 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/"$1"/*"$1"*/' bin/wisdom
15:10:43 <HackEgo> ostrich/Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
15:10:54 -!- Frooxius has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
15:10:56 <HackEgo> ring/Addition, subtraction and multiplication have a certain ring to them.
15:11:00 <HackEgo> bookwatching/bookwatching is when you conflagrate birdwatching and the books used to identify them in the same object.
15:11:02 <HackEgo> metaturing/This wisdom entry was crushed by a falling anvil.
15:11:10 <Taneb> Ng is more common than I assumed
15:11:12 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
15:15:22 <oerjan> <Taneb> It looks like it will be cooler today <-- NOPE
15:15:34 <Taneb> It's like 5 degrees cooler
15:15:45 <Taneb> Might be able to sleep tonight
15:17:28 <HackEgo> sleep/Sleep is for the weak.
15:17:48 <Taneb> I am not famous for my strength
15:18:02 <lambdabot> ENVA 021450Z 26010KT CAVOK 22/16 Q1019 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 30005KT
15:18:04 <Taneb> LOOK AT THESE GRAPHS oerjan http://weather.elec.york.ac.uk/live-graphs.html
15:19:05 <oerjan> so, about the same weather as here.
15:19:37 <lambdabot> EPWA 021500Z 01006KT 310V060 CAVOK 27/07 Q1026 NOSIG
15:19:39 <Taneb> Although we did have a much warmer night last night
15:19:46 <Taneb> Possibly due to more cloud coverage
15:19:55 <oerjan> or wait, one day earlier
15:20:03 <lambdabot> EPWA 021500Z 01006KT 310V060 CAVOK 27/07 Q1026 NOSIG
15:20:29 <lambdabot> EDDB 021450Z 12012KT CAVOK 29/10 Q1023 NOSIG
15:20:33 <Taneb> oerjan, the wind has been generally from the south-west
15:20:39 <lambdabot> LOWI 021450Z 07010KT 040V110 9999 VCTS FEW070 FEW070CB 32/17 Q1021 TEMPO 09015G25KT
15:20:50 <int-e> glad not to be home.
15:21:11 <lambdabot> EGNT 021450Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW029 22/15 Q1016
15:21:16 <Taneb> I still can't read these
15:21:20 <int-e> (epwa is where I am; eddb is where I'm going tomorrow)
15:21:54 <oerjan> Taneb: just look for the number before the / hth
15:23:58 <shachaf> oerjan: doesn't handle wisdoms with slashes in them tdnh
15:24:11 <shachaf> actually tdh at least moderately
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15:24:38 <oerjan> hm maybe the initial * is a problem
15:25:08 <oerjan> i think plain `wisdom without argument would still work?
15:25:12 <int-e> Taneb: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/METAR is obligatory reading for this channel ;)
15:25:13 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯/¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:25:27 <shachaf> If you have a / in the query string it'll work.
15:25:31 <oerjan> shachaf: seems to work splendidly hth
15:25:36 <shachaf> Oh, it'll work either way, I guess.
15:25:40 <int-e> FEW029 <-- sunny, a few clouds (at 2900 feet)
15:26:03 <oerjan> there are, of course, still features missing if you'd like to implement them.
15:26:34 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
15:26:42 <shachaf> oerjan: when can we mv bin/wisdom bin/\?
15:26:50 <shachaf> what features are necessary
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15:27:19 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet
15:27:26 <oerjan> i think it'd have to take an actual redex then.
15:27:50 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't think they are entirely compatible given that `? must support the literal file
15:28:06 <HackEgo> ~u`Ӂ> %qo=g^~6.:Sh[6T˨*݀QAZ&7
15:28:25 <int-e> `wisdom reflection
15:28:26 <HackEgo> /cat: : No such file or directory
15:28:38 <shachaf> oerjan: really the behavior i wanted was for `? with no arguments to give a random wisdom
15:28:54 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Roujo Roujo Roujo oerjan Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo Roujo
15:29:19 <oerjan> shachaf: in that case, changing `? to delegate if no argument?
15:29:34 <shachaf> But the output formar is different.
15:29:39 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/$/ >^.^</' cat
15:29:51 <shachaf> ion: what do you think of nitia
15:30:02 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
15:30:30 <shachaf> Nitia Is The Inventor of All
15:31:52 <ion> shachaf: mu
15:32:42 <Taneb> `culprits bin/culprits
15:32:43 <HackEgo> tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
15:35:22 <int-e> `learn The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. It invented Muppets and tiny elfs.
15:35:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'bbc': The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. It invented Muppets and tiny elfs.
15:35:51 <shachaf> Taneb: have you considered adopting the name nitia as your own
15:35:56 <oerjan> is nitia a muppet or a tiny elf?
15:36:33 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm pretty sure someone else already stole it hth
15:36:33 <Taneb> shachaf, it is registered
15:36:43 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
15:36:51 <oerjan> living up to his wisdom
15:37:09 <int-e> oerjan: I don't know. "nitia" does not appear prominently on http://www.muppetlabs.com/~breadbox/bf/
15:37:26 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/It invented/Its inventions include, without limitation,/' wisdom/bbc
15:38:26 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Nitia
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15:39:30 <shachaf> one can never tell whether int-e is sarcastic :'(
15:39:54 <int-e> I wasn't in this case. (Nor in this. Err... how do I make this unambiguous?)
15:40:32 <shachaf> http://www.mit.edu/people/dpolicar/writing/prose/text/epistemologicalNightmare.html hth
15:40:33 <Taneb> int-e, either always or never be sarcatic
15:40:45 <int-e> Taneb: I can't do that :/
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15:56:51 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nitia.
15:57:07 -!- nitia has changed nick to Taneb.
15:58:09 <HackEgo> tanebvention/Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
15:59:02 <shachaf> oerjan: that solution to `wisdom was p. clever
16:00:03 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
16:00:04 -!- password2 has joined.
16:00:13 <shachaf> ` rgrep -il wolfram wisdom
16:00:21 <HackEgo> wisdom/stephen wolfram \ wisdom/tanebvention
16:00:37 <shachaf> Hmm, I thought there was another one.
16:00:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
16:01:07 <oerjan> how did that ` rgrep work
16:01:32 <HackEgo> [U+0060 GRAVE ACCENT] [U+0020 SPACE]
16:01:43 <oerjan> ` rgrep -il wolfram wisdom
16:01:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
16:02:21 <HackEgo> bin/` bin/̊ bin/! bin/? bin/¿ bin/' bin/@ bin/؟ bin/ bin/ bin/e bin/h bin/q
16:02:25 -!- mihow has joined.
16:02:40 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
16:03:49 <oerjan> shachaf: your scheme was foiled hth
16:04:11 <shachaf> oerjan: i was trying to take bets in the other channel about the probability of getting swatted for it
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16:23:41 <ais523> hmm, it's weird to be pinged with no sort of followup
16:23:44 <ais523> did my pong not get through?
16:24:08 <coppro> ais523: sorry, was just checking something
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16:31:36 <shachaf> Taneb: there's always pandoc hth
16:32:13 <Taneb> WHY ARE YOU HOLDING THE SAME CONVERSATION WITH ME IN AT LEAST THREE DIFFERENT CHANNELS AAAAAH
16:34:11 <oerjan> Taneb: easy solution, ban him fro #taneb hth
16:34:38 <shachaf> 09:07 -!- mode/#taneb [+o-o Taneb shachaf] by shachaf
16:34:38 <shachaf> 09:07 -!- mode/#taneb [-o Taneb] by Taneb
16:34:38 <shachaf> 09:07 <Taneb> NOW WHERE IS YOUR OP
16:34:40 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm not an op in #taneb, and that is not one of the three
16:35:34 <shachaf> Taneb: http://pandoc.org/demo/example9/producing-slide-shows-with-pandoc.html
16:36:06 <shachaf> http://pandoc.org/demos.html
16:36:16 <Taneb> I do know what pandoc is
16:36:29 <shachaf> yes, but have you seen all the different slides it can generate
16:36:40 <Taneb> Yeah, I checked it out the other day
16:36:44 <shachaf> 09:38 * hackagebot pandoc 1.15.0.3 - Conversion between markup formats http://hackage.haskell.org/package/pandoc-1.15.0.3 (JohnMacFarlane)
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16:55:06 <hppavilion1> I successfully created an Esoteric Markup Language
16:58:21 <hppavilion1> And \TeX{} isn't Turing-Complete, last time I checked
16:58:44 <hppavilion1> myname: How's the Rainbonic Hello World going?
17:00:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43395&oldid=43385 * Hppavilion1 * (+1) )
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17:02:14 <coppro> it's well-established that TeX is TC
17:02:27 <coppro> though I'm not aware of the proof
17:02:58 <myname> isn't latex fully based on tex?
17:03:11 <myname> if so, i wrote a bf interpreter in latex
17:03:35 <hppavilion1> So are you still making the Rainbow Hello World?
17:04:17 <myname> well, the hardest part is tondecide what , will actually do, bit yeah
17:04:53 <hppavilion1> You can write it in a preprocessed language if you like
17:05:08 <myname> the hardest part in coding in latex are arrays
17:05:30 <Jafet> You mean tapes, right?
17:05:41 <hppavilion1> I'm just trying to wrap my head around the idea of something that's practically a MS Word for smart people being TC
17:05:45 <Jafet> (Arrays? What are those?)
17:05:51 <myname> the ifthenelse package makes recursion pretty easy
17:05:59 <coppro> it should be possible to write fractran in tex without excessive effort
17:06:27 <Jafet> With non-unary integers?
17:06:35 <myname> coppro: i am not sure, you'd have to have mod and div
17:06:49 <hppavilion1> Another thing I'm working on that I think'll be pretty cool:
17:07:00 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit).
17:07:24 <coppro> myname: it's been done in tikz
17:08:08 <myname> tikz is pretty weird shit sometimes
17:09:11 <Jafet> Isn't tikz entirely implemented in tex?
17:10:50 <Jafet> I suppose you mean a direct implementation of fractran in tex
17:12:32 <b_jonas> what? you'd need to implement bignums for that, which is somewhat complicated
17:12:59 <b_jonas> it's certainly possible, but I don't think you really want to do it
17:13:18 <b_jonas> or perhaps you'd just work directly with the prime exponents rather than the product
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19:33:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43396&oldid=41729 * InputUsername * (-161) Removed things I won't finish due to laziness
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20:01:28 -!- nortti has changed nick to \n.
20:01:37 -!- \n has changed nick to nortti.
20:30:47 <fowl> InputUsername is not lazy
20:38:09 <Taneb> Wow, I think I technically live in a school
20:38:40 <MDude> Just like the X-Men.
20:48:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43397&oldid=43324 * Phase * (+68) link my codegolf account
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21:15:46 <pikhq> I am gonna have a lot of "fun" next week...
21:18:46 <pikhq> Repeat after me: "Get on I-80 W. In 1568 miles, take exit 40"
21:20:17 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:25:05 <oerjan> Get on I-80 W. In 1568 miles, take exit 40
21:25:39 <shachaf> It doesn't break on state boundaries?
21:26:01 <pikhq> shachaf: Well, why would it?
21:26:24 <shachaf> Google Maps does on I-5 S.
21:26:43 <shachaf> Besides, exits are renumbered at state borders.
21:27:00 <shachaf> So you might get confused and take the exit with the same number in the wrong state.
21:27:56 <pikhq> The actual entry is "Follow I-70 W, I-29 N and I-80 W to Zanker Rd in Santa Clara County. Take the Zanker Road exit from CA-237 W (2068 mi)", FWIW.
21:28:42 <shachaf> I used to live in Milpitas.
21:28:58 <shachaf> Approximately near one end of 237.
21:30:32 <pikhq> Mmm. The corporate apartment I'll be at is, uh, *just* outside of Milpitas.
21:31:13 <shachaf> What! You didn't get the apartments in downtown Mountain View?
21:31:47 <shachaf> A person who was in this channel (not me) was in one of those.
21:32:01 <pikhq> Though there is a Google bus stop literally right there.
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21:32:19 <shachaf> Milpitas is the scow of the bay area.
21:33:31 <pikhq> "a wide-beamed sailing dinghy."?
21:33:54 <shachaf> Which team are you going to be on?
21:34:07 <pikhq> They haven't told me yet.
21:34:32 <shachaf> If you ever run into gmail folks, ask them what scow means.
21:37:02 <pikhq> Huh, housing prices in Milpitas are nowhere near as crazy as they are elsewhere in the area.
21:37:38 <pikhq> Though that seems true of a lot of places that are south of the bay.
21:38:38 <shachaf> south bay, more like scowth bay
21:39:21 <tswett> `run sed -i wisdom/ngevd -e 's/tswett/tswift/'
21:39:28 <shachaf> I guess you're planning to be car-possessing?
21:39:33 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswift‼
21:40:19 <pikhq> Seeing as I have a car.
21:40:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:41:09 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
21:41:38 <oerjan> `learn_append tswett because he's so bad at following directions.
21:41:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'tswett': tswett is livin' it up with the penguins because he's so bad at following directions.
21:42:00 <HackEgo> tswett/tswett is livin' it up with the penguins because he's so bad at following directions.
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21:42:52 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
21:43:02 <tswett> oerjan: would you please remove my nick from wisdom/ngevd? Thanks.
21:46:22 <oerjan> `` echo ' s' | tr ' ' 't'
21:46:43 <oerjan> `` sed 's/tswett/tswett/' wisdom/ngevd
21:46:44 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
21:46:51 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/tswett/tswett/' wisdom/ngevd
21:47:07 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
21:47:18 <tswett> ...I think that worked.
21:47:41 * oerjan has used that trick a few times before
21:48:09 <HackEgo> [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+0073 LATIN SMALL LETTER S]
21:49:37 <tswett> `run echo '[' | unidecode | unidecode | unidecode | unidecode
21:49:38 <HackEgo> \ close failed in file object destructor: \ sys.excepthook is missing \ lost sys.stderr
21:50:26 <oerjan> `` echo hi | unidecode
21:50:39 <oerjan> i don't think it's made to take stdin
21:50:41 <tswett> Right, unidecode decodes its argument, not its input.
21:51:06 <tswett> `run unidecode $(unidecode $(unidecode $(unidecode '[')))
21:51:08 <HackEgo> [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0042 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER B] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+004C LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L] [U+0045 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E] [U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F] [U+0054 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER T] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0053 LATIN CAP
21:53:51 <oerjan> there'll be a limiting character frequency given by the eigenvector of the substitution matrix
21:55:23 * oerjan wonders if the generated shift system is minimal
21:55:50 <oerjan> it has to contain '[] ' and those generate each other
21:56:20 <oerjan> so this is fairly analogous to thue-morse
21:57:12 <oerjan> question: do you get every character that's legal in unicode descriptions
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21:58:18 <MDude> That doesn;t sound like a favorable trait to have in character descriptions.
21:58:41 <MDude> Wait, no, *doesn"t
21:59:12 <oerjan> and it's something like capital letters, digits and a few other things
21:59:34 <oerjan> hm i guess letters have uniform names
22:00:25 <oerjan> `unidecode [U+0123456789 ]
22:00:26 <HackEgo> [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX] [U+0037 DIGIT SEVEN] [U+0038 DIGIT EIGHT] [U+0039 DIGIT NINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET]
22:05:11 <tswett> Are there any characters in Unicode character names besides capital English letters, numerals, and spaces?
22:05:39 <oerjan> tswett: maybe hyphens?
22:06:56 <HackEgo> [U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET]
22:07:20 <tswett> I can't think of a character that I would expect to have a hyphen in it.
22:09:11 <oerjan> ABCDEFGHI are in there, so every digit 0-9 appears
22:10:07 <HackEgo> [U+65E5 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-65E5]
22:10:18 <oerjan> > sort $ nub "[U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE]"
22:10:22 <oerjan> [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR]
22:10:24 <oerjan> [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX] [U+0037 DIGIT SEVEN]
22:10:27 <oerjan> [U+0038 DIGIT EIGHT] [U+0039 DIGIT NINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D
22:10:36 <oerjan> irssi, why don't you ever join lines when i _want_ it
22:11:46 <oerjan> > sort $ nub "[U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET] [U+0055 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER U] [U+002B PLUS SIGN] [U+0030 DIGIT ZERO] [U+0031 DIGIT ONE] [U+0032 DIGIT TWO] [U+0033 DIGIT THREE] [U+0034 DIGIT FOUR] [U+0035 DIGIT FIVE] [U+0036 DIGIT SIX] [U+0037 DIGIT SEVEN] [U+0038 DIGIT EIGHT] [U+0039 DIGIT NINE] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET] "
22:11:47 <lambdabot> " +0123456789ABCDEFGHIKLNOPQRSTUVWXZ[]"
22:12:32 <oerjan> so those won't appear, the rest will, when iterating `unidecode on one of them
22:14:13 <zzo38> How can you in a portable C code to run another program and to use the stdin/stdout of that other program?
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23:24:34 <oren> pipe, fork, exec IN THAT ORDER
23:25:18 <oren> wait, define "portable"
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01:03:48 <zzo38> oren: I mean, it can work in Windows and in Linux (and preferably also BSD and Mac OS X)
01:28:18 <tswett> Lessee, guess that would use the C standard library.
01:28:24 <tswett> Whoops, I'm scrolled up.
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01:28:54 <tswett> Okay, the thing I responded to is still the thing to be responded to.
01:50:10 <tswett> Does the C standard library actually contain a way to spawn a process besides system()?
01:50:15 <zzo38> The document of popen says only reading or writing not both
01:52:56 <zzo38> I meant something like the proc_open() function in PHP but in a C program instead.
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02:00:27 <zzo38> On Windows I am using MinGW to compile it
02:02:23 <tswett> Looks to me like system() is the only function in the C standard library that spawns a process, and that doesn't do what you want.
02:02:38 <tswett> So presumably there is, in fact, a very portable way to do the thing you just said.
02:02:49 <tswett> It's just not actually in the C standard library.
02:04:15 <zzo38> Maybe I might have to use #ifdef but still should try to do in a good way that isn't very complicated
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02:49:58 <oren> girl look at that body
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03:21:42 <oren> Walpurgisnacht: I take it you've never heard the song "Sexy and I know it" by LMFAO?
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03:35:16 <oerjan> isn't that the official INTERCAL name
03:43:51 <FreeFull> But then you might confuse the symbol for a TV antenna
03:45:04 <FreeFull> Nevermind, those were called both rabbit ears and bunny ears
03:47:30 <oren> " is dubba kwot
03:48:21 <oren> : is dubba dot
03:48:56 <oren> w is of course the dubba yu
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04:07:28 <Sgeo_> Reddit seems to be imploding for real
04:07:40 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
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04:08:41 <MDream> Wonder if that'll affect the non-major boards on it.
04:10:39 <Sgeo_> Ugh the FPHers and their supports seem to be out in full force too
04:11:22 <Sgeo_> But the subreddit blackout seems to be supported by subs I assume are sane, so
04:12:23 <pikhq> The subreddit blackout wasn't triggered by FPH-shit, mercifully.
04:13:05 <pikhq> Sgeo_: As I understand, this was triggered by the firing of a reddit employee who was *vital* in the operation of AMAs that left r/IAMA high and dry.
04:13:24 <pikhq> Said employee was also most mod's sole source of contact with reddit ordinarily.
04:13:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43398&oldid=42988 * 76.99.100.98 * (+342) added ti-68k implementation
04:13:42 <Sgeo_> pikhq, thought it wasn't just that, but also lack of notification of such
04:13:46 <pikhq> And there was no indication she was being fired, and no indication of why, and no indication of what any mods are supposed to do.
04:14:23 <pikhq> And the mods of a lot of subreddits were *already* pretty irritated at perceived lack of any sort of communication from reddit.
04:14:38 <pikhq> (just, mostly in private)
04:14:56 <Sgeo_> Well, "no indication of why" is probably normal I think, no need to embarrass the employee further, but yeah, some indication of what's going to happen and what to do next would be critical
04:15:51 <pikhq> Yes, I agree, I'm just saying that it left mods of some big reddits lost and confused with *no* information other than "she's fired".
04:15:52 <FreeFull> https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bxduw/why_was_riama_along_with_a_number_of_other_large/ This post explains everything
04:18:54 <pikhq> TLDR: the only thing that we know for sure is a bunch of people aren't happy.
04:19:19 <Sgeo_> Reddit admins claimed they have people to take her responsibilities, but... they should have communicated to the mods
04:20:04 <pikhq> This was (pretty clearly) the straw that broke the camel's back.
04:21:39 <Sgeo_> "Fired by the GestaPao." of course the "we don't like the no harassment rule" crowd is taking advantage
04:23:15 <pikhq> It's a glorious opportunity to go "look, see, see, SHES TERRIBLE!"
04:23:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esomarklets]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43399 * JayCampbell * (+910) New concept
04:24:02 <Sgeo_> And more people can't read and say it's "Reddit CEO Ellen Pao fired Victoria for unknown reasons, and tons of major subs are going private (probably temporarily) in protest."
04:24:07 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/casualiama/comments/3bxje2/ama_request_victoria_former_reddit_employee_for/
04:24:41 <Sgeo_> Although I'm not supporting Reddit's failure to communicate
04:25:38 <MDream> Well at most, mods can only keep anything private as long as the admin team doesn't replace them.
04:25:52 <pikhq> MDream: That would *kill* reddit.
04:26:11 <pikhq> Sgeo_: It's a clusterfuck.
04:26:39 <MDream> I don't visit Reddit, so no idea how much the general traffic would care about a big mod turnover.
04:27:38 <pikhq> One of the more powerful conceits in the culture is that each subreddit is self-regulated.
04:28:14 <Sgeo_> /r/netsec is down. I need it.
04:28:16 <pikhq> Basically, that'd make reddit the new digg.
04:28:57 <FreeFull> MDream: I wonder how much luck the admin team would have moderating a large subreddit where all the mods have left
04:29:24 <pikhq> True. There's a lot of large subreddits and those were previously run by volunteers.
04:30:25 <MDream> Yeah, I knew they were moderated independently, but no idea how things usually go over there.
04:30:36 <MDream> So I'll just wait and find out.
04:30:53 <Sgeo_> Flames and hostility. /r/subredditdrama is a good collection
04:31:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esomarklets]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43400&oldid=43399 * JayCampbell * (+45) typos
04:31:17 <pikhq> Yeah, reddit has a lot of drama.
04:31:30 <pikhq> I tend to ignore it, but there's a *lot* of drama around there.
04:31:38 <MDream> Mostly just curious if JanusVR's going to keep its board on Reggit or not.
04:32:05 <MDream> Along with other projects that figured "Well, I use Reddit, why *not* make the main board there?"
04:32:25 <Sgeo_> JanusVR still insecure afaict, news at 11
04:32:29 <Sgeo_> Although I should check again
04:32:43 <MDream> Was it ever a security application?
04:32:47 <FreeFull> All the "reddit alternatives" are going down because of the inrush of people
04:33:01 <Sgeo_> Cookies from web surfaces do not have the domain stored. So a.com can read b.com's cookies
04:33:45 <MDream> Cookies were never a well designed thing to begin with, though that is worse.
04:36:03 <MDream> Browsers tend to presume a website designer's control over user experience is a higher priority than user control of the machine.
04:36:06 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure this is a great time to watch reddit with a bag of popcorn.
04:36:40 <MDream> Operating systems too, at times.
04:38:19 <Sgeo_> MDream, how many users have the faintest idea how to control their machine?
04:38:34 <Sgeo_> And would screw something up then blame the website?
04:40:00 <Sgeo_> Maybe if the web were better designed with sane semantic syntax and webdevs it would work out
04:43:23 <zzo38> MDream: That and other reasons is why I had idea we needed to define the new browser
04:46:00 <zzo38> The new design would involve many thing including some CSS doesn't work, JavaScripts doesn't work, HSTS doesn't work, and in some cases some CSS specifications can be ignored, such as if you specify background color but not foreground or vice-versa, or if the text and background color is defined for the entire document but not defined for parts of the document, then the color specification is ignored.
04:46:55 <zzo38> And also each tab has its own user settings too, normally inheriting the one that opened it
04:52:42 <zzo38> Also it would treat URLs that the user enters to navigate to as relative, have no toolbar/menubar/icons/etc, and to warn the user when a redirection or link goes to a IP address that is only for local/loopback or a domain name that resolves to such an address (these settings can be overridden)
04:55:58 <FreeFull> That doesn't sound like it'd be very usable for me
04:56:39 <Sgeo_> What's the danger in local redirects?
04:57:16 <Sgeo_> Also no one uses URLs these days, everyone googles the URL then clicks the first result
04:57:34 <Sgeo_> (Probably not the modern experience but I assume many users have equally insane flows)
04:58:01 <Sgeo_> Yes but you're not computer illiterate
04:58:15 <zzo38> But you can also define your own shortcuts that start with a colon though
04:58:16 <FreeFull> I propose we move everything to gopher
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04:58:40 <zzo38> Well, it would not be made for computer-illiterate people (who shouldn't try to use a computer anyways)
04:59:25 <zzo38> FreeFull: You can put many thing on gopher but some things isn't, and some things won't work very well with it (although, some things might work better with SSH, telnet, command-line, whatever, too)
05:00:11 <zzo38> And I would also need the function you can use the interactive controls to try to make a command-line version of a website that works without the web-browser
05:01:15 <FreeFull> You can server html + css + js over gopher
05:01:26 <Walpurgisnacht> Apparently a channel is trying to become the biggest on Freenode by filling up with thousands of versions of the same bot
05:06:33 <oren> I mercifully burned out on internet drama back when I was on a forum in 2004.
05:07:16 <oren> Therefore I'm not in any way involved with any of the shit going down on Tumblr, Reddit, Youtube etc
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05:08:16 <zzo38> FreeFull: Yes you can, but you don't need to often plain text work just fine
05:08:18 <oren> well I got a new job last week and it's going well
05:08:28 <pikhq> oren: I'm just sitting and watching, personally.
05:08:29 <zzo38> (Many of my own files I make as just as plain text)
05:15:12 <Sgeo_> What happens if /r/OutOfTheLoop shuts down
05:15:36 <pikhq> The mods have decided, BTW, they won't shut down even if they're the last sub open.
05:16:44 <Sgeo_> Although they didn't ask to be in the position of the best source of information
05:17:57 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/comments/3bxduw/why_was_riama_along_with_a_number_of_other_large/
05:20:13 <zzo38> I do put many things on gopher and plain text, but not everything does
05:24:08 <oren> A very simple method of file sharing is to make a cloud server, put your files on it owned by root with only read perms, and tell people to log in as user: guest pass: guest
05:30:35 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/askscience/comments/3by2nk/a_message_to_our_users/
05:30:40 <Sgeo_> I love the science in every comment
06:15:17 <pikhq> Sgeo_: "The admins literally made a decision so fucking stupid that SRS and KotakuInAction are in agreement on something."
06:17:07 <pikhq> That is pretty telling.
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06:20:59 <Sgeo_> pikhq, link to that comment?
06:25:38 <pikhq> Already closed tab. It was just someone talking about the subject.
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06:36:12 <Sgeo_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZbqAMEwtOE
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07:00:27 <mroman_> zzo38: Use the POSIX C Library?
07:00:42 <mroman_> Compilers like MinGW provide a POSIX layer.
07:03:39 <mroman_> using fork/pipe/exec* you might be able to do that.
07:03:58 <mroman_> and redirect stdin/stdout to the pipes
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08:27:31 <mroman_> But then you need to set ulimits and what not.
08:27:41 <mroman_> otherwise guests will just spawn fork bombs and whatever
08:28:46 <mroman_> why not just use a small webserver?
08:28:52 <mroman_> that provides a directory listing
08:30:49 <mroman_> IANA takes requests really seriously
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09:05:40 <mroman_> Port registrations are free, right?
09:08:16 <mroman_> I have read the forms and RFCs and couldn't find anything mentioning that it costs money
09:08:31 <mroman_> but my fucking anxiety "disorder" keeps giving me shivers that I run into hidden costs
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10:20:24 <fizzie> Maybe I should switch fungot to some other freenode server, it seems more prone to dropping off than usual.
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10:30:32 <fungot> mroman_: you can just stick in a or v in a code clause. they know how to deal with
10:30:49 <mroman_> fungot: don't tell me what to do with my a or v.
10:30:50 <fungot> mroman_: decrement a register until it's zero and you have an idea how long she's going to evolve them? escape the space? prints just fine.
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11:01:54 <Taneb> boily, can you move my coordinate a little bit further east?
11:05:11 <boily> how much eastness would you like me to add?
11:05:25 <Taneb> I am afraid I must disappear to lunch now, though
11:05:52 <boily> that's very East, if you're having lunch.
11:09:54 <fizzie> I used to have lunch at 10:30am every day, back at the university in Finland.
11:10:11 <fizzie> (That's when the campus restaurants generally open.)
11:15:12 <boily> you were a student. it's a perfectly natural phenomenon.
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11:23:51 <mroman_> regular lunch time is 11:40am
11:23:56 <mroman_> everything else is plain crazy
11:24:03 <mroman_> fungot: When do you eat lunch?
11:24:03 <fungot> mroman_: a fourth begin to fit inside that lambda?
11:24:13 <mroman_> Right. fungot uses lambda time.
11:24:14 <fungot> mroman_: possibly fnord ogel for the position. i wonder what would happen if i decrement the pointer, i'll have to reconstruct my generic stream-based zipper code to convince you, theoretically.
11:48:35 <Taneb> I think it was a perfectly sensible time to have lunch
11:52:14 <Taneb> Just after 12, it was
11:55:56 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe I should use mailing lists more (or usenet) or something, for when I want to ask complicated questions about computers that are tricky to ask on IRC, especially at less busy times when nobody is listening.
11:56:44 <Taneb> I am foiled by the fact that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING HELP
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12:04:53 <mroman_> Java has some weird rules when dead-code is considered to be an error or just a warning
12:05:26 <mroman_> it distinguishes between dead-code and unreachable-code
12:06:07 <Taneb> What is the difference?
12:06:37 <mroman_> or maybe that's just eclipse.
12:07:38 <mroman_> Object obj = null; if(obj == null) return; foobar();
12:07:44 <mroman_> the call to foobar() will be marked as dead-code
12:07:52 <mroman_> Object obj = null; return; foobar();
12:07:57 <mroman_> then foobar() will be marked as unreachable-code
12:08:51 <mroman_> dead-code is when code depends on some conditional
12:09:16 <mroman_> if(true) return; foobar();
12:09:20 <mroman_> will actually just trigger dead code
12:09:50 <fizzie> Only the notion of 'reachability' is defined by the JLS. I assume the dead code parts are some Eclipse static analysis thing.
12:10:52 <fizzie> "Except for the special treatment of while, do, and for statements whose condition expression has the constant value true, the values of expressions are not taken into account in the flow analysis."
12:11:46 <mroman_> that's why if(true) return; foobar(); won't trigger unreachable code
12:12:01 <mroman_> but while(true); foobar(); will trigger it
12:12:32 <mroman_> why did they exclude if(true)?
12:12:50 <Taneb> I think they had to decide where to draw the line
12:12:59 <Taneb> And just decided not to bother checking conditionals
12:13:07 <mroman_> Taneb: but they check it in loops
12:13:37 <mroman_> if(true) return; foobar(); compiles
12:13:41 <mroman_> while(true); foobar(); won't
12:14:00 <mroman_> as fizzie quoted: while, do and for have a special handling for the constant value true
12:14:45 <Taneb> What about while(true) return; foobar();?
12:15:00 <fizzie> That doesn't compile, but it has nothing to do with the 'return'.
12:15:18 <Taneb> while(true) {return; foobar();}?
12:15:59 <fizzie> That would also have foobar(); as unreachable, but just based on the analysis within the block.
12:20:17 <fizzie> I think the rationale I saw for not special-casing conditionals mentioned the case of something like if (DBG) doSomethingSpecial(); -- per the language specification, if DBG is a final variable, special-casing of the form "if (false) X; means X is not executed" would make all those lines errors if DBG was set to false.
12:20:47 <fizzie> (References to final variables count as constant expressions.)
12:24:49 <fizzie> Or, closer to the "if (true) return;" example, you could imagine if (LEAN_AND_MEAN) return simpleApproximation(); return somethingVeryComplicated(); and a compile-time toggle to select what to use, which would have unreachable code no matter which way LEAN_AND_MEAN is defined. Not that that's perhaps very idiomatic Java; I'm sure the "proper" way would be something like having an interface ...
12:24:55 <fizzie> ... and a dependency injection framework to select implementation classes, or whatever.
12:25:53 <mroman_> you could just exclude non-final variables
12:25:58 <mroman_> then boolean DBG = true; would work
12:27:22 <fizzie> That would mean a whole new definition of what "constant expression" is, for possibly very little benefit, since the cases where there's *actually* a literal 'true' or 'false' in a conditional are probably pretty contrived.
12:27:41 <fizzie> Oh, the rationale's actually right at the end of the reachability chapter, and it's exactly the conditional-compilation thing.
12:28:47 <mroman_> without final it's hard to make dead code elimination
12:28:56 <mroman_> so the if condition would be always checked at runtime
12:29:01 <mroman_> having a slight performance impact
12:29:09 <mroman_> so I guess having if as a special case really makes sense
12:29:24 <fizzie> "This approach [of special-casing true/false] would be consistent with the treatment of other control structures. However, in order to allow the if statement to be used conveniently for "conditional compilation" purposes, the actual rules differ. As an example, the following statement results in a compile-time error: while (false) { x=3; } because the statement x=3; is not reachable; but the ...
12:29:30 <fizzie> ... superficially similar case: if (false) { x=3; } does not result in a compile-time error. An optimizing compiler may realize that the statement x=3; will never be executed and may choose to omit the code for that statement from the generated class file, but the statement x=3; is not regarded as "unreachable" in the technical sense specified here. The rationale for this differing treatment ...
12:29:36 <fizzie> ... is to allow programmers to define "flag variables" such as: static final boolean DEBUG = false; and then write code such as: if (DEBUG) { x=3; } The idea is that it should be possible to change the value of DEBUG from false to true or from true to false and then compile the code correctly with no other changes to the program text. This ability to "conditionally compile" has no ...
12:29:42 <fizzie> ... relationship to binary compatibility (§13 (Binary Compatibility)). If a set of classes that use such a "flag" variable are compiled and conditional code is omitted, it does not suffice later to distribute just a new version of the class or interface that contains the definition of the flag. The classes that use the flag will not see its new value, so their behavior may be surprising, but ...
12:29:48 <fizzie> ... no LinkageError will occur. A change to the value of a flag is, therefore, binary compatible with pre-existing binaries, but not behaviorally compatible."
12:29:51 <fizzie> That's probably not very readable.
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12:31:37 <mroman_> dead code elimination would break binary compatibility
12:32:16 <fizzie> That thing about allowing -- actually, I think it might even be required -- the baking of final values into classes that use them is I think also rationalized by the conditional-compliation-and-efficiency arguments.
12:34:13 <mroman_> removing unused members certainly can break stuff :)
12:34:54 <fizzie> "If a field is a constant variable (§4.12.4), and moreover is static, then deleting the keyword final or changing its value will not break compatibility with pre-existing binaries by causing them not to run, but they will not see any new value for a usage of the field unless they are recompiled. This result is a side-effect of the decision to support conditional compilation (§14.21). (One ...
12:35:00 <fizzie> ... might suppose that the new value is not seen if the usage occurs in a constant expression (§15.28) but is seen otherwise. This is not so; pre-existing binaries do not see the new value at all.)"
12:35:11 <fizzie> I know Proguard is quite capable of breaking stuff, too.
12:35:43 <mroman_> It messes up things that relies on reflection
12:35:59 <mroman_> like runtime injection and the like
12:36:17 <mroman_> and it probably also renames method names in beans
12:36:22 <mroman_> which breaks a shitload of stuff
12:45:10 <fizzie> I'm probably not technically allowed to go into details about any work stuff, and I haven't used Proguard for anything I've done for fun.
12:46:29 <fizzie> Although I think it's relatively well-known that big Android apps tend to benefit from Proguarding w.r.t. dex method limits and such. I see it's even one of the official recommendations of things to try: https://developer.android.com/tools/building/multidex.html
12:47:25 <fizzie> "If you have built an Android app and received this error, then congratulations, you have a lot of code!" So whimsical.
12:50:48 <mroman_> You could've been rich. -- My mother, proguard
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13:41:18 <mroman_> bitbucket has a referer check
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14:59:30 <tswett> And here I go, training yet another neural net on the #esoteric logs.
15:01:01 <fizzie> fungot: Would you want your babble model to be reinterpreted as some sort of a deep recurrent neural network?
15:01:01 <fungot> fizzie: that's about fnord. i'm trying to transform the cases it can't refer to information, how can you have an exe lying around somewhere if you're interested
15:01:21 <fizzie> I don't know if that's a yes or a no, but I'm not about to implement it either way.
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15:02:44 <fizzie> (I still haven't even fixed the use of the backoff weights in the n-gram sampling Funge code.)
15:02:51 <tswett> 53:27:50: <aerjan> you bors inf mite darpikh in asce are ult hapaatud tor arypo leatet thas)
15:02:55 <tswett> That's pretty accurate.
15:03:16 <fizzie> Given how late in the day that is, it seems quite reasonable.
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15:04:24 <HackEgo> shake qwert recurscript minius channah *w wilson puzzlank fractal oozlybub brain minius 2iota gecha smation ozone9000 noobare f murphy godscraffic
15:05:55 <fizzie> Would be nice of `words had a filter that'd reject words originally in the training set. Although maybe it's part of the fun to actually occasionally get real words when it comes to natural languages.
15:06:00 <HackEgo> laavistä nopeimpaa epäisemilleni hakintohisti agitaimat paansa kuuttavallesi teräisellisimmiksi syväjännerotteelli vaamme rahtuvaltoivalmi koistisempii heimaksikirkkää vaksenne ahkeämpää kohduttamili myyvillaajen taisenne neuvottamme harmaltisempi
15:06:32 <Taneb> `words --english 10
15:06:41 <HackEgo> Usage: words [-dhNo] [DATASETS...] [NUMBER_OF_WORDS] \ \ options: \ -l, --list list valid datasets \ -d, --debug debugging output \ -N, --dont-normalize don't normalize frequencies when combining \ multiple Markov models; this has the effect \ of making larger dataset
15:06:47 <fizzie> There's 'eng1m' or something.
15:06:49 <HackEgo> valid datasets: --eng-1M --eng-all --eng-fiction --eng-gb --eng-us --french --german --hebrew --russian --spanish --irish --german-medical --bulgarian --catalan --swedish --brazilian --canadian-english-insane --manx --italian --ogerman --portuguese --polish --gaelic --finnish --norwegian --esolangs \ default: --eng-1M
15:06:55 <fizzie> Oh, eng-1M. And eng-all.
15:07:01 <HackEgo> saunizinai mult leituilla casie emblack vlevallm rashman kate reer voten
15:07:13 <Taneb> `words --italian 10
15:07:14 <HackEgo> rifina dentavano speteste attridiassi accatastionifica univamo tuggi dall'inte convulghi anghinia
15:07:48 <fizzie> "vlevallm" seems like a totally legit English word, yes.
15:08:13 <fizzie> `run words --eng-gb 10 # talk like a British lord
15:08:17 <HackEgo> domum aca circu inde eque tberg wilh str uvrena probach
15:08:39 <fizzie> I'm more impressed by --esolangs and --finnish than the English outputs, honestly.
15:09:28 <tswett> Randomly generated esolang name: Tistribtikive
15:10:59 <tswett> On the low-temperature setting, this thing likes to produce *extremely* long bfjoust commands.
15:11:23 <tswett> Pretty sure each one is something like a thousand characters long.
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16:14:40 <HackEgo> erhältnik grilhasen wegungsnachtsgleie modenstenuz gedankflussenhärtyre infuhr zonensbezoge diskomentöfset flußzahngriftsv beystem urschler wolksamiith motischen bedria stempel födelsordichtmus wiedlereisen phaservermäß perren vierenz
16:14:50 <mauris> thoses are very german
16:37:09 <zzo38> Can you show me the codes to redirect this pipes/fork/exec two-ways with MinGW? I read somewhere that on Windows the popen function doesn't work with GUI programs (so presumably doesn't work with Glk)
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18:18:44 <myname> wtf is wegungsnachtgleie
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18:38:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esomarklets]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43401&oldid=43400 * JayCampbell * (-955) withdrawn by author
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19:01:34 <jayCampbell> i'm abstracting in javascript for bf derivatives
19:01:48 -!- lawspeaker has changed nick to nortti.
19:02:29 <jayCampbell> var machine = new TapeMachine({ '+' : 'm.tape[this.pc]++;' , '-' : 'm.tape[this.pc]--;' , '>' : 'm.pc++;' , '<' : 'm.pc--;' , ',' : 'm.tape[m.pc]=m.input();' , '.' : 'm.output( m.tape[m.pc] );' , '[' : 'while( m.tape[m.pc] !=0 ) {' , ']' : 'if( m.tape[m.pc]==0 ) break; }' }, 100);
19:03:01 <jayCampbell> machine.run( "++++++++[>++++[>++>+++>+++>+<<<<-]>+>+>->>+[<]<-]>>.>---.+++++++..+++.>>.<-.<.+++.------.--------.>>+.>++.");
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19:38:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GolfScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43402&oldid=35741 * 98.144.6.77 * (+42) /* External resources */ Changed Golfscript homepage link to latest working one from the Wayback Machine
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19:41:15 <myname> depends on the question, i guess
19:43:05 <J_Arcane> I have a big text file, with a bunch of date stamps that look like this: 2014-09-15T23:22:25
19:43:18 <J_Arcane> I need to lop off the T and everything after it, leaving only the date.
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19:55:50 <Sgeo_> "You fucking assholes downvoted it for no other reason than "lol fuck Ellen Pao" after screaming that she needs to come in and say something. You fucking people are unbelievable."
19:56:30 <Sgeo_> Also, enough downvotes in the sub in question apparently triggered automoderator to hide her post, which people then assumed was her deleting it
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20:01:44 <J_Arcane> Sgeo_: yes, I hear reddit's finally descended into complete anarchy these days.
20:30:30 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/sysadmin/comments/3byaei/reddit_alternatives_other_subs_going_private_to/csr0by6
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20:38:36 <pikhq> J_Arcane: s/\([[:digit:]]\{4\}-[[:digit:]]\{2\}-[[:digit:]]\{2\}}\)T[[:digit:]]\{2\}:[[:digit:]]\{2\}:[[:digit:]]\{2\}/\1/g
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21:27:12 <pikhq> Why does my face itch so much
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22:05:38 <oerjan> <Taneb> I am foiled by the fact that I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT I AM DOING HELP <-- a common problem.
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22:25:04 <oerjan> apparently girl genius is doing art pages only because kaja foglio hurt her back...
22:27:30 <shachaf> i,i whom did she hurt back?
22:27:53 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
22:28:07 <oerjan> i assume that's what you wanted hth
22:28:28 <shachaf> was not specifically aiming for it
22:29:10 <oerjan> i do the aiming here hth
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23:11:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GolfScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43403&oldid=43402 * Oerjan * (-17) /* External resources */ template
23:11:44 <oerjan> i was about to ping fizzie that the link was broken again
23:12:30 <oerjan> @ask jayCampbell do you want Esomarklets deleted altogether?
23:14:25 <fowl> When i was young i was interested in creating my own spoken language
23:15:04 <fowl> Now im doing the same thing but with computers. Its easier to convince a computer to speak your language than it is to convince a human
23:15:37 <oerjan> does anyone else keep getting sporadic TLS errors with reddit
23:15:56 <fowl> Then again i dont reddit
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23:23:09 <zzo38> I sometimes get sporadic TLS errors with Wikipedia
23:23:52 <pikhq> Maybe you're seeing NSA TLS breaking attacks.
23:24:18 <hppavilion1> I wonder if 2D languages will ever be used commercially...
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23:26:53 <hppavilion1> I want to _make_ a commercially-viable 2D lang...
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23:31:20 <fowl> hppavilion1 http://staraban.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/unreal-engine-4-blueprint-editor.jpg
23:33:09 <hppavilion1> I'm making a language called Generic 2D Brainfuck :P
23:35:54 <oerjan> wasn't there an ancient 2d language that _was_ used commercially
23:36:02 <fowl> Esolangs arent generally commercially viable
23:36:17 <oerjan> ancient as in '80s or thereabouts
23:36:40 * oerjan checks the prehistory page
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23:39:15 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Biota
23:39:31 <doesthiswork> http://www.keithschwarz.com/kleene/ The kleene program accepts as input a C++ program, then produces a new C++ file that includes a function kleene::MySource() that returns a copy of the program's source code.
23:40:50 <oerjan> "Biota, devised by Ward Cunningham, is an esoteric programming language in two dimensions and sold for a net profit in 1991 (predating Befunge)."
23:41:12 <fowl> I wish i could sell something for a net profit
23:41:49 <fowl> Then maybe my wife would respect me
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23:44:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Generic 2D Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43404 * Hppavilion1 * (+2659) Created Page
23:46:21 <hppavilion1> But it's never been used commercially as far as I know
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23:49:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:2D BF]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43405&oldid=24985 * Hppavilion1 * (+259) Generic 2D Brainfuck
23:49:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:2D BF]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43406&oldid=43405 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) Whoops. Codified my sig.
23:51:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43407&oldid=43294 * Hppavilion1 * (+316) /* Peano */ new section
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00:32:12 <ER28-0652> Is it possible to turn Deadfish into something useful?
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00:50:35 <oerjan> ER28-0652: i think the answer is obviously yes, but not in any interesting way.
00:51:25 <ER28-0652> how okay is this for now: http://pastebin.com/1TnjCths ?
00:51:37 <oerjan> i think there's already a deadfish derivative.
00:52:30 <oerjan> you still have no flow control, i see
00:53:10 <oerjan> ER28-0652: btw you're aware of deadfish's 256 weirdness, right?
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00:57:04 <Walpurgisnacht> If I wear my shirt inside out the entire universe is wearing my shirt outside in
00:58:15 <Wallacoloo> Walpurgisnacht: Have you read Douglas Adams' Dirk Gently books?
00:58:17 <oerjan> this implies that Walpurgisnacht is outside the universe
00:59:10 <ER28-0652> What should I add? http://pastebin.com/B6YTD2Qn
00:59:59 <Wallacoloo> Walpurgisnacht: One of the Dirk Gently books contains a person who puts the rest of the world in an asylum just by building a house in which all the exterior walls and interior walls are reversed.
01:00:08 <Wallacoloo> It's pretty similar to the t-shirt thing.
01:00:38 <Walpurgisnacht> But if you reverse a wall its still a wall unless the wall has a fixture on the opposite side
01:02:59 <Wallacoloo> Walpurgisnacht: It's been a while since I read it, but I think this was taken care of. He had things like the windows open from the "outside" instead of the "inside", etc.
01:03:15 <Wallacoloo> The bigger issue is that the "interior" of this house is essentially unbounded.
01:05:55 <Wallacoloo> Huh. I wouldn't be surprised if somebody already has! I mean, there are numerous "upside down" houses out there. http://i1068.photobucket.com/albums/u450/curiousplaces111/Upside-downhouseTrassenheide3.jpg
01:06:13 <Wallacoloo> If anything, it would be easier to accomplish.
01:15:15 <Walpurgisnacht> <oerjan> this implies that Walpurgisnacht is outside the universe: < Tbh if the universe worked like that oerjan many people would erase their existence accidently on a hangover / to dark room in the morning day
01:16:52 <Wallacoloo> Hold on a second. If you're wearing your shirt inside-out, doesn't that mean the rest of the universe is wearing your shirt inside-in?
01:26:25 <ER28-0652> well, deadmeat still hasn't made deadfish any more useful than a calculator
01:26:31 <ER28-0652> uh oh better implement a different language
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02:18:53 <HackEgo> science/Semi-automatic text generation.
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02:47:31 <HackEgo> qdbformat/qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
02:48:17 <HackEgo> Å/Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
02:48:24 <HackEgo> lion/Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world.
02:50:30 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/qdbformat
02:50:51 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
02:51:15 <shachaf> Is "$ENTRY is: " really useful at the beginning of $ENTRY?
02:51:31 <shachaf> I'm starting to think it's `learn that encourages unuseful behavior.
02:52:45 <oerjan> also, that entry has symbolic links, or used to.
02:53:18 <HackEgo> Binary file wisdom/irrelevant info matches \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/qdb:qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also qdbformat \ wisdom/qdbfmt:qdbformat is: <nick
02:53:54 <HackEgo> wisdom/quote \ wisdom/qdbformat \ wisdom/qdbfmt \ wisdom/qdbrules \ wisdom/irrelevant info \ wisdom/qdb \ wisdom/quoteformat
02:54:11 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
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02:54:18 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
02:54:24 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
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02:54:52 <shachaf> ` hg log wisdom/qdbfmt | grep summary:
02:54:54 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do tac "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <shachaf> ln -s qdbformat wisdom/qdbfmt
02:55:04 <shachaf> ` hg log wisdom/quoteformat | grep summary:
02:55:06 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do tac "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <shachaf> ln -s qdbformat wisdom/quoteformat
02:56:27 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/{qdbfmt,quoteformat}; ln -s qdbformat wisdom/qdbfmt; ln -s qdbformat wisdom/quoteformat
02:56:46 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
02:57:07 <shachaf> I'm not sure that those files should exist.
02:57:16 <shachaf> Though apparently I thought they should at one point.
02:57:43 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
02:57:56 <shachaf> ` hg log wisdom/qdbrules | grep summary:
02:57:57 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do tac "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <shachaf> ln -s qdbformat wisdom/qdbrules
02:58:06 <shachaf> Starting to think I was being unhelpful back then.
02:58:35 <oerjan> well you didn't know symbolic links were f****** broken
02:59:43 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/{qdbrules,qdbfmt}; mv wisdom/{qdbformat,quoteformat}
03:00:07 <oerjan> `` rgrep -l qdbformat wisdom
03:00:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/qdb \ wisdom/quoteformat
03:00:16 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also qdbformat
03:00:33 <shachaf> ` for f in wisdom/*; do [ -f "${f}a" ] && echo "$f"; done
03:00:51 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/qdbformat/quoteformat/' wisdom/qdb*
03:00:59 <HackEgo> qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
03:01:22 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/qdbformat/quoteformat/' wisdom/quote*
03:01:28 <HackEgo> quoteformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two.
03:01:51 <HackEgo> qdb is used like: `quote; `quote regexp; `quote id; `addquote ...; `delquote id; `pastequotes regexp; `pastenquotes [n]; see also quoteformat
03:02:23 <shachaf> I was going to change the quote thing to give quotes ids that persist even when other quotes are deleted.
03:02:36 <shachaf> But then elliott said he would do it, so I stopped.
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04:09:30 <Sgeo_> 'Those documents are super confusing. The specs are full of statements like “If a sibling block box (that does not float and is not absolutely positioned) follows the run-in box, the run-in box becomes the first inline box of the block box. A run-in cannot run in to a block that already starts with a run-in or that itself is a run-in.” Whenever I read things like that, I wonder how anyone correctly conforms to the spec.'
04:09:37 <Sgeo_> Are web specs still like this?
04:09:43 <Sgeo_> That quote is from 2008
04:23:03 <zzo38> WWW is really a mess
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05:53:12 <Walpurgisnacht> Now I have a bunch of files that are either empty, corrupted or filled up but I have to sort them now for any salvagable bits
05:53:21 <oerjan> the files are now on a baggage train in ulan bator.
05:53:48 <oerjan> that's how you _really_ fuck up a file transfer hth
06:03:41 <Sgeo_> I should attempt to make sense of my own code at some point
06:03:51 <Sgeo_> Split it into data retrieval and data display maybe
06:04:05 <Sgeo_> Maybe open-source it instead of this crazy idea that I can monetize a website
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06:38:21 <oren> Walpurgisnacht: I reccommend using physical media and a car for mass file transfer
06:39:00 <oren> Taneb: good mroing
06:42:10 <Taneb> Walpurgisnacht, fill the car full of hard drives
06:42:14 <Taneb> Drive the hard drives to the place
06:42:23 <Taneb> You can work out the rest
06:45:12 <oren> Well my last method was: 1 install hard disk in computer A, put files on one partition. take hard disk out of A and put it into computer B. install the OS into the other partition of the hard disk
06:52:18 <Walpurgisnacht> OH yes I remember oren is the name of the zora queen link between worlds
06:54:11 <Taneb> I need to play Link Between Worlds
06:55:23 <oren> It's not precisely a clone of Link to the Past but its overworld map is almost identical
06:55:44 <Taneb> I need to play all the LoZ games
06:55:50 <oren> It seemed to be a lot easier though
06:56:01 <Taneb> But I have a copy of Link between Worlds
06:57:07 <Walpurgisnacht> Nintendo needs to step up their game tbh the fourswords re release was ripped up programming from link between worlds
06:58:34 <oren> I have beaten all the 2D LoZ games, plus Twilight Princess and Ocarina
06:59:07 <oren> wait, except Zelda 2. couldn't get into it
06:59:56 <oren> The original zelda is amazing
07:01:15 <FreeFull> I've only beaten Link's Awakening
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07:01:46 <oren> I played it on virtual console on my 3DS, and it holds up quite well even comparing it with the GBA releases
07:02:21 <oren> the lack of a map is... problematic
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07:04:11 <Taneb> oren, yeah, I ended up making a map for myself
07:04:27 <oren> I have a romhack that adds a map to the game
07:04:51 <oren> shows only places you've already been
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10:25:57 <fizzie> fungot: How are you coping with the heat?
10:25:57 <fungot> fizzie: arcus the first rule is never get involved in slow down a lot. :d just received it!), but
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11:14:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43408&oldid=30783 * Rdebath * (+25) Found a Wayback link for this
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12:31:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Numberix]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43409&oldid=7814 * Rdebath * (+102) And another wayback link
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13:39:44 <lambdabot> CYUL 041300Z 00000KT 30SM FEW100 BKN240 19/12 A2995 RMK ACC1CS7 ACC TR SLP141 DENSITY ALT 500FT
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15:40:59 <HackEgo> weetoflake/Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
15:48:35 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
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15:56:15 <HackEgo> weetoflake/Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
15:56:26 <HackEgo> fternoon/Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
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16:12:13 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
16:12:20 <HackEgo> future/We know nothing about the future.
16:12:25 <HackEgo> konami/The konami code is ㊤㊤㊦㊦㊧㊨㊧㊨Ⓑ Ⓐ [START]
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16:16:46 <HackEgo> U+0001 <control> \ UTF-8: 01 UTF-16BE: 0001 Decimal:  \ . \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0002 <control> \ UTF-8: 02 UTF-16BE: 0002 Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral) \ \ U+0086 <control> \ UTF-8: c2 86 UTF-16BE: 0086 Decimal: † \ \ Category: Cc (Ot
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17:37:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K-on Fuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43410&oldid=41523 * Rdebath * (+144)
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17:41:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K-on Fuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43411&oldid=43410 * Rdebath * (+237) Might as well add this too
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18:27:34 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir/lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends.
18:27:41 <oren> why is youtube's layout suddently idfferent?
18:28:31 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/lifthrasiir
18:28:32 <HackEgo> Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
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18:30:42 <oren> Oh I see, something reset my layout to before I deleted the sections I didin't want
18:31:01 <HackEgo> bbc/The BBC is the BreadBox Corporation. Its inventions include, without limitation, Muppets and tiny elfs.
18:31:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[Esomarklets]]": Author request: page has no other contributions and is only a few hours old
18:31:35 <HackEgo> chess/Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
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23:08:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Generic 2D Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43412&oldid=43404 * Oerjan * (+0) broken category
23:09:06 <HackEgo> goat/Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
23:12:49 <HackEgo> pietbot/Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
23:17:25 <HackEgo> spam/Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
23:17:45 <oren> AHH I can't get youtube back the way it was
23:24:45 <HackEgo> myndzi/myndzi keeps us all on our feet
23:25:09 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/myndzi
23:25:40 <HackEgo> myndzi keeps us all on our feet.
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00:02:08 <oren> wait there's a length limit?
00:02:19 -!- oren has changed nick to qwertyuiopasdfgh.
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00:02:51 <boily> qwertyuielloasdfgh?
00:03:06 <boily> helloren! (while you're orenning.)
00:06:39 -!- Taneb has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:06:58 <boily> today, my bro pushed me deeper into drug hell...
00:07:40 <boily> I mustn't visit FLGS with him. it's hard on the wallet.
00:08:52 <boily> got a new Race for the Galaxy extension, and Survive.
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00:09:59 <boily> also, ピッこんばんエッチキュー
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00:15:04 <HackEgo> equal temperament/Equal temperament is just intonation that's evenly spaced.
00:16:01 <HackEgo> quadrilateral/Don't you mean "tetrapleur"?
00:18:59 <o-ren> hmm, 四線 doesn't seem to be a word
00:19:46 <o-ren> 四角 is "quadrangle" which doesn't quite mean the same thing
00:21:17 <HackEgo> mnoqy/mnoqy used to be monqy before the earthquake.
00:21:44 <o-ren> the earthquake which ran a sort over his letters?
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00:33:13 <enor> how chmu afiimnnoort do ouy elos by ginorst eht eelrstt I ?denorw
00:35:30 <enor> I egssu eht eglnor eht aaeegrv dorw ,is eht emor beiiiilopssst aer .lost Btu emos deorrs aer beiilmopss fmor eht arstt os abemy ouy illst 'dnot elos a .lot
00:36:07 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:36:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ceelmow: not found
00:39:06 <oerjan> enor: 'denost kloo oot .adhr
00:40:27 <myname> i am not sure bout ginorst, but other that that, i am okay with it
00:41:26 <myname> there is that text about "the ordering of letters doesn't matter"
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00:41:54 <myname> sorting is actually way harder to read that letting the first and last letter in a wort in place
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00:44:38 <enor> cat >letersort <<<'int compare(char *s,char *c){return*s-*c;}int main(){char w[40];int c,i=0;while(
00:44:41 <enor> 1){c=getchar();if(c<=32||c==EOF){qsort(w,i,1,compare);w[i]=0;printf("%s",w);if(c
00:44:44 <enor> ==EOF)break;putchar(c);i=0;}else{w[i++]=c;}}
00:45:42 <enor> `` cat >letersort <<<'int compare(char *s,char *c){return*s-*c;}int main(){char w[40];int c,i=0;while('
00:46:08 <enor> `` cat >>letersort <<<'1){c=getchar();if(c<=32||c==EOF){qsort(w,i,1,compare);w[i]=0;printf("%s",w);if(c'
00:46:28 <enor> `` cat >>letersort <<<'==EOF)break;putchar(c);i=0;}else{w[i++]=c;}}}'
00:47:12 <enor> `` gcc letersort
00:47:14 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld:letersort: file format not recognized; treating as linker script \ /usr/bin/ld:letersort:1: syntax error \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
00:47:26 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
00:48:00 <enor> `` gcc -x c letersort
00:48:04 <HackEgo> letersort: In function ‘main’: \ letersort:2:29: error: ‘EOF’ undeclared (first use in this function) \ letersort:2:29: note: each undeclared identifier is reported only once for each function it appears in \ letersort:2:62: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default]
00:50:33 <enor> `` sed -i '1i#include <stdio.h>' letersort
00:50:38 <enor> `` gcc -x c letersort
00:51:04 <myname> why is there a t missing?
00:51:45 <enor> because I typed it wrong the first time and didn't bother correcting it after
00:51:57 <enor> `` cat letersort
00:51:57 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ int compare(char *s,char *c){return*s-*c;}int main(){char w[40];int c,i=0;while( \ 1){c=getchar();if(c<=32||c==EOF){qsort(w,i,1,compare);w[i]=0;printf("%s",w);if(c \ ==EOF)break;putchar(c);i=0;}else{w[i++]=c;}}}
00:52:16 <enor> `` a.out <<<"lettersort"
00:52:17 <HackEgo> bash: a.out: command not found
00:52:22 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"lettersort"
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00:53:10 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"myname oerjan boily elliott"
00:53:11 <HackEgo> aemmny aejnor biloy eillott
00:54:36 <enor> `` ./a.out <<letersort
00:54:37 <HackEgo> bash: warning: here-document at line 0 delimited by end-of-file (wanted `letersort')
00:54:47 <enor> `` ./a.out <letersort
00:54:48 <HackEgo> bash: line 1: 293 Segmentation fault ./a.out < letersort
00:55:00 <enor> oh right 40 char limit
00:55:44 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"何"
00:56:02 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"は"
00:56:04 <pikhq> Looks pretty broken. :)
00:56:44 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"pikhq"
00:57:05 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"HackEgo"
00:57:20 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"fungot"
00:57:21 <fungot> enor: don't really know, i forgot where offby1 works for unnamed function to itself via combinator so you don't have interoperable serialisation. that wouldn't be accepted by a machine, particularly a computer.
00:57:42 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"serialisation"
00:58:01 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"computer"
00:58:20 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"wouldn't"
00:58:56 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"qwertyuiop"
00:59:31 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"hallöle"
00:59:57 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"hallâle"
01:00:23 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"​¢Ãaehlll"
01:00:36 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"​€‚ƒ¢¢¬¹ÂÃÃââaehlll"
01:00:56 <enor> oh, look, I've invented one of those puzzle machines
01:01:32 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"ｶ"
01:01:39 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"ｷ"
01:03:01 <enor> the puzzle being: find a UTF-8 character whose bytes are already sorted
01:03:39 <enor> hmm, as it turns out that's the only ones?
01:03:47 <Sgeo_> Other than that it's impossible. The leading byte of a non-ASCII UTF-8 character begins with 11, and the following bytes begin with 10
01:05:14 <enor> `` sed -i 's/*s-*c/*c-&s/' letersort
01:05:35 <enor> `` sed -i 's/&s/*s/' letersort
01:05:50 <enor> `` gcc -x c letersort
01:05:56 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"ｷ"
01:06:21 <enor> `` sed -i 's/*c-*s/*s-*c/' letersort
01:06:24 <enor> `` gcc -x c letersort
01:06:26 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"ｷ"
01:06:59 <Sgeo_> Hexchat is interpreting the result as something else
01:07:20 <enor> `` sed -i 's/\*s-\*c/\*c-\*s/' letersort
01:07:28 <enor> `` gcc -x c letersort
01:07:32 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"ｷ"
01:07:43 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"hello"
01:07:51 <enor> `` ./a.out <<<"oren"
01:07:56 -!- enor has changed nick to rone.
01:08:06 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"何"
01:08:32 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"こんにちは"
01:08:45 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"こん"
01:08:49 <Sgeo_> How did that 何 work?
01:09:09 <rone> The bytes are already in reverse order for that character
01:09:17 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"の"
01:09:55 <rone> whereas other characters will have their bytes reordered into a different, possibly invalid, character
01:10:08 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"こ"
01:10:09 <Sgeo_> Oh so a.our reverse sorts? That makes snese
01:11:04 * Sgeo_ watches all consoles get locked down
01:11:07 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"ろ"
01:11:23 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"り"
01:11:57 <Sgeo_> http://en.memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Omega_Directive
01:11:59 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"わ"
01:12:11 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:12:33 <rone> `` ./a.out <<<"”"
01:12:59 -!- rone has changed nick to oren.
01:13:21 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"「"
01:13:56 <boily> can't see if the dakuten is han.
01:14:03 <oren> oh right apartment
01:14:18 <boily> probably some superposition of both, like a ¾-dakuten.
01:14:31 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"半"
01:14:39 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"じゃ"
01:14:45 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"じ"
01:14:52 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"や"
01:14:59 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"ゃ"
01:15:59 <oren> `` ./a.out <<<"あ い う 餌 お"
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01:19:55 <oren> so what was happening beofre is that apparently the utf-8 on my terminal interprets isolated high bytes as Windows 1
01:20:41 <oren> forming a bizarre hybrid encoding
01:25:14 <oerjan> oren: actually it may be irssi's encoding fallback
01:25:34 <oerjan> which i think either applies to a whole line or not.
01:26:56 <oerjan> except i'm not sure if that final part is consistent with what i'm seeing.
01:27:58 <HackEgo> fact/facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
01:28:31 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/f/F/' wisdom/fact
01:28:43 <HackEgo> Facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
01:38:11 <shachaf> do facts form fact groups?
01:52:33 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
01:52:34 <HackEgo> internationale//You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee
01:53:05 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
01:53:06 <HackEgo> ascii//ascii is the plural of ascius
01:53:28 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
01:55:13 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
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01:59:40 <HackEgo> Who cares about ancient cases anyway?
01:59:49 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/who | grep summary:
01:59:50 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> learn Who cares about ancient cases anyway?
02:08:13 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/internationale
02:08:50 <shachaf> ` grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | wc -l
02:09:49 <HackEgo> You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee.
02:10:32 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
02:10:33 <HackEgo> friendship//friendship wisdom
02:10:38 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
02:10:39 <HackEgo> @//@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
02:11:04 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/'@'
02:11:13 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
02:11:40 <shachaf> ` F="$(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"
02:11:41 <HackEgo> maths//maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin
02:12:25 <oerjan> `l/rn maths/Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
02:12:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/l/rn: No such file or directory
02:12:30 <oerjan> `le/rn maths/Maths stands for Mathematical Anti-Telharsic Harfatum Septomin.
02:12:42 <shachaf> ok, maybe this is a little too reminiscent of the wikipedia thing of the good old days
02:13:00 <shachaf> finding things for you to edit
02:13:53 <shachaf> ` for F in $(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom); do echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"; done
02:13:54 <HackEgo> scotland//<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes \ tar//The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf \ ant//ants are animals too hth \ guestbot//guestbot is nobody \ burma//ask Bike \ bird//bird bird bird bird \ otp//onl
02:14:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure any of those need correction.
02:15:12 <HackEgo> gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
02:15:14 <shachaf> ` for F in $(grep -Prl '[a-z]$' wisdom | shuf); do echo -n "${F#wisdom/}//"; cat "$F"; done
02:15:15 <HackEgo> tar//The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf \ algol//ALGOL stands for A Programming Language \ java//java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures \ itym//itym "i think you mean" hth \ ascii//ascii is the plural of ascius \ ngram//cat: wisdom/ngram: No such file or directory \ model//cat: model:
02:16:06 <oerjan> i think that's enough for now, but as a compromise i'll do some more once you start editing wikipedia hth
02:16:37 <shachaf> where's the compromise in that
02:17:06 <oerjan> the part where you get to see through my evil plan hth
02:27:32 <shachaf> oerjan: i was going to edit wikipedia and now it's down tdnh
02:27:59 <oerjan> obviously, that was also part of my evil plan.
02:28:54 <shachaf> can we have the rest of this evil plan in advance twh
02:29:29 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure there's a point on the evil overlord list discouraging that.
02:30:07 <shachaf> does your evil plan also involve the flies in this room?
02:30:26 <shachaf> i have an anti-bug screen on the window that's supposed to prevent flies coming in
02:30:34 <shachaf> but right now it's preventing flies going out
02:31:11 <oerjan> my strategy since i moved here has been to never open the windows hth
02:31:58 <lambdabot> ENVA 050220Z 13006KT 9999 FEW004 08/07 Q1021 RMK WIND 670FT 10007KT
02:31:59 <oerjan> (there's a ventilation system)
02:32:01 <lambdabot> KOAK 050153Z 30016KT 10SM SCT008 SCT180 18/14 A2985 RMK AO2 SLP106 T01830139
02:32:15 <shachaf> well what do i do about these flies twh
02:32:56 <oerjan> i used to trap them between a glass and a sheet of paper
02:32:57 <oren> get fireproof walls, then use axe and a lighter
02:33:14 <oerjan> may not work well on the faster kind.
02:33:48 <oerjan> (step 1: trap with glass. step 2: slide sheet between)
02:34:00 <oerjan> very humane when it works.
02:34:27 <shachaf> would prefer a flye option
02:36:05 <oerjan> oren: http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autotwb1196.html
02:50:23 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with durkon's teeth, anyway?
02:50:28 <shachaf> why are they skin-colored?
02:53:26 <oerjan> i'm not sure if they're the same color.
02:53:53 <shachaf> I was going to back in the archive and check if they're the same color his fangs used to be.
02:53:57 <shachaf> But I realized that might not work.
02:54:20 <shachaf> the joke is he didn't use to have fangs
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04:00:29 <HackEgo> esosc/esosc is esoteric song contest (also Esoteric Standard Committee)
04:08:15 <HackEgo> md5/MD5 is a hash algorithm mainly used by underdeveloped aliens.
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06:55:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number-rock]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43413&oldid=43304 * Zzo38 * (+321)
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08:49:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Generic 2D Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43414&oldid=43412 * 95.175.104.25 * (+3)
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10:18:20 <myname> that generic 2d bf is rather boring
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10:55:57 <Taneb> Hey hey it's the Slereah
10:56:02 <Taneb> People say they Slereah around
10:57:12 <Slereah> I'm the Slereahest of Slereahs
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11:37:36 <Jafet> Applications of deep learning: high-resolution pictures of Miku https://github.com/nagadomi/waifu2x
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17:18:36 <oren> What kind of a name is Skręta?
17:19:30 <oren> And how come his daughter is just Skreta without an ogonek
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17:25:50 <Jafet> Éogon, son of Écaron and lord of the house of Eopf.
17:29:17 <hppavilion1> I started making a language designed specifically for programming Text-Based Games
17:29:37 <Jafet> (Apparently in Rohan, it is the other way round; diacritics appear in descendants' names.)
17:30:05 <myname> hppavilion1: i have a question about bfml
17:30:07 <hppavilion1> It's based on PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
17:30:55 <myname> hppavilion1: is it considered possible to have more than one attribute for one char?
17:31:03 <myname> like, can it be bold, underlined and blue
17:31:21 <hppavilion1> That's why each value is assigned to a different bit range
17:31:45 <oren> Hmm i appears that the only languages it could possibly be are polish and lithuanian
17:32:25 <hppavilion1> It also makes it kind of difficult to set up :P
17:32:34 <myname> i had it remembered as values rather than as bits
17:33:35 <hppavilion1> What makes it annoying is that to embolden, you need to do, like, 34,359,738,368 plus signs
17:33:47 <hppavilion1> I'm going to fix that in the specification actually
17:34:16 <oren> With ansi escapes, you could theoretically have bg color, fg color, bold, italic, blinking, underlined, struck through text
17:34:32 <myname> i thought you just have to 34, 34, 34?
17:36:39 <hppavilion1> I'm fixing the spec so that if you follow an instruction with an integer, the instruction is executed _n_ times
17:37:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43415&oldid=43395 * Hppavilion1 * (+303) Shortcuts
17:37:21 <myname> isn't every cell responsible for exaxtly one character?
17:37:42 <myname> so, if every cell is the value for bold, the whole text is bold
17:38:54 <hppavilion1> So now +34359738368 is a shortcut to embolden text
17:40:03 <hppavilion1> Whether we use prefix or suffix doesn't matter
17:40:12 <hppavilion1> And I figure suffix makes more sense to me
17:40:49 <myname> as a vim user i have to disagree :p
17:41:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43416&oldid=43415 * Hppavilion1 * (+11) Wrapping 36-bit brainfuck
17:41:45 <hppavilion1> Now I specified that BFML is wrapping because more arbitration
17:42:06 <myname> wrapping makes bolding actually useable
17:47:18 <oren> suffixing is better onl if you speak a SVO language where imperatives are 'VO'.
17:48:28 <hppavilion1> Speech2Text+Natural Language Recognition+Command/Control-style game
18:00:39 <MDude> What kind of games are those?
18:06:50 <oren> I think he may be thinking of Command and Conquer
18:07:34 <myname> "tower to d4" "roger that"
18:13:02 <MDude> Yeah, command and COntrol is just a tower defense game.
18:14:19 <MDude> I want a speech to text adventure game.
18:15:30 <MDude> THen you can pretend you're guiding someone through an adventure via radio.
18:16:02 <MDude> Hmm, maybe I should make a text adventure game styled to look like you're guiding someone via phone texts.
18:16:30 <myname> adventure games suitable for google glasses
18:16:48 <myname> okay google, move the infantery two blocks to the right
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18:21:57 <oren> extra technical challenge: do it on famicom using the microphone
18:31:30 <hppavilion1> By command/control I meant a game where you control a group of people indirectly
18:31:49 <hppavilion1> Bonus: A game where you are controling a small platoon of starships by voice
18:32:07 <hppavilion1> While also controlling the lead ship by WASD etc.
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18:51:08 <oren> is there a standard extension for non-C code which must be passed through the C preprocessor?
18:51:36 <ais523> oren: there's .S for assembler+cpp
18:51:41 <ais523> not sure about other cases
18:51:58 <oren> that's the case i'm looking for
18:52:09 <pikhq> I *like* ".cpp", but that's one of the several extensions C++ has taken.
18:52:15 <ais523> note that the S being capital matters
18:52:29 <ais523> (on a case-sensitive filesystem, at least)
18:52:44 <pikhq> Along with cxx, c++, cc, .C...
18:53:01 <oren> I guess you could do pl.#def
18:53:11 <oren> for preprocessed perl
18:53:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43417 * Phase * (+6645) Create Refract page with info from the wiki
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18:54:06 <oren> in this case, I was looking for preprocessed assembler, although I might use preprecessed hexadecimal dump for another thing
18:54:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43418&oldid=43417 * Phase * (+118) /* Multiple Stacks */ Change Markdown to MediaWiki syntax
18:57:13 <oren> hmm yeah for the parts I'm writing in preprocessed hex, I'll use .hex#
18:57:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43419&oldid=43418 * Phase * (-130) Some examples
19:00:09 <oren> The confusion with c++ headers is even worse: .h .hpp .hxx .hh .H .h++
19:00:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43420&oldid=43419 * Phase * (+98) Another examples
19:00:45 <oren> using plain .h and .cpp for C++ code is what my workplace does
19:03:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43421&oldid=43420 * Phase * (+3424) Add operator table
19:05:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43422&oldid=43421 * Phase * (+1) /* External Resources */ Fix link typo
19:06:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43423&oldid=43422 * Phase * (+47) Link to me
19:07:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43424&oldid=43397 * Phase * (+14) Link to Refract & Typo fix
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19:15:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43425&oldid=43370 * Phase * (+14) /* R */ Add Refract language
19:23:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43426&oldid=43423 * Phase * (+281) Cool table
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19:27:19 <Sgeo_> http://textsfromevillious.tumblr.com/post/94661173137/618-you-were-so-drunk-last-night-1-618-no (Muzzle of Nemesis/Seven Deadly Sins/Evillious Chronicles spoilers)
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19:35:09 <Sgeo_> I think some of them are pulled from textsfromlastnight but not all of them
19:36:12 <Sgeo_> Incidentally, are Hansel and Gretal good, bad, mix?
19:36:26 <Sgeo_> THey've been called the "cursed twins" at least once
19:38:54 <Sgeo_> I haven't read any of the ...mangas? Just watched the songs
19:39:04 <Sgeo_> I'm sure there are songs I've missed though
19:39:11 <Sgeo_> Only saw Drug of Gold a few days ago
19:49:49 <nortti> I'm not sure myself either
19:53:35 <nortti> oh, interesting, another perspective to conchita? hadn't seen that one myself
19:55:31 <Sgeo_> I honestly don't really like her story that much myself. Until she starts eating people, how is eating a lot incl. disgusting things worthy of the name "Evil Food Eater"?
19:56:22 <Sgeo_> Unless it's 'eater of evil food'? I don't know
19:57:22 <Sgeo_> Drug of Gold is musically catchy though
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22:19:33 <oerjan> <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43417 * Phase * (+6645) Create Refract page with info from the wiki <-- i was worried there for a moment
22:19:49 <oerjan> but apparently it's eir own wiki
22:20:37 <oerjan> oren: SEE WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU CALL WIKIPEDIA "WIKI" ALL THE TIME
22:21:01 * oerjan isn't quite sure oren was the culprit, but whatever
22:21:46 <HackEgo> The wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki
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22:26:09 <Taneb> `learn Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages
22:26:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'wikipedia': Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages
22:26:33 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/wikipedia
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22:27:44 <Taneb> I very rarely write in that style so I get confused
22:28:37 <oerjan> `le/rn tvtropes/We'll write about TVTropes here, we'll just have to finish these tabs first.
22:28:57 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/tvtrope{s,}
22:29:44 <oerjan> `le/rn tvtrope/We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
22:29:51 <HackEgo> We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
22:32:38 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/tvtrope
22:32:42 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/tvtropes
22:32:56 <HackEgo> Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages.
22:33:07 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
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22:46:59 <Taneb> How are you doing, boily
22:47:05 <Taneb> Also oerjan and b_jonas because why not
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22:47:33 <boily> my feet hurt, but I spent plenty of time outside playing mahjong with my bro and other people :D
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22:49:29 <boily> what did you today do?
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22:52:36 <ais523> boily: I was asleep most of the day because I'd had 4 hours sleep in the preceding two
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22:52:50 <ais523> (which in turn was because of Parkinson's Law)
22:53:09 <ais523> Parkinson's Law = "work expands to fill the time available"
22:54:06 <ais523> (actually I finished over 12 hours early, then spent many of them doing one more proofread)
22:54:31 <oerjan> since i have no work, my followed websites expand instead.
22:54:53 <boily> boardgaming filled my weekend.
22:55:05 <boily> (and some Towerfall too.)
22:58:36 <oerjan> except when puzzle solving expands instead...
22:59:02 <oerjan> i clearly do structured procrastination, the trouble is none of the levels do anything actually useful.
23:01:28 <Taneb> I played D&D yesterday
23:02:09 <Taneb> It looks like the 5th ed game I'm in is going to end up with 8 or more players, which could be a problem
23:02:18 <Taneb> And I'm the only one not going to be living in Leeds
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23:06:35 <ais523> a group of 8 players, I'd try to break into two groups of 4 and 3 respectively
23:07:36 <Taneb> ais523, which is 7 players?
23:07:46 <Taneb> (that 8 wasn't including the DM)
23:08:11 <ais523> Taneb: you need an extra DM for the other group
23:08:20 <ais523> because one DM can't run two at once
23:10:26 <Taneb> I think the plan is to make it like a bunch of heroes operating in flexible teams
23:10:43 <Taneb> So people can drop in and out
23:13:01 <Taneb> Not sure how well that'll work
23:13:59 <ais523> depends on how self-contained the sessions are
23:14:08 <Phantom_Hoover> give all the characters multiple personality disorders
23:14:16 <ais523> I find that in D&D in practice, there's a lot of "I know we're in the middle of a fight but it's 9pm and we really need to go home"
23:15:28 <Taneb> ais523, yeah, that is a problem
23:16:06 <Taneb> (especially with me getting the train there and back from a different city)
23:16:46 <ais523> the local trains from Birmingham University run up to 11pm or so
23:16:50 <ais523> and the buses up to midnight
23:17:05 <ais523> we used to go to the pub after the games (I don't drink alcohol, but I ordered food or fruit juice sometimes)
23:17:14 <ais523> and then I'd often end up catching the last bus home
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23:21:46 <Taneb> Yeah, I think I can appreciate
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23:22:04 <Taneb> First time we played with this group, I ended up staying over
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23:23:00 <Taneb> Of course, the party's mage has moved to Ireland
23:23:04 <Taneb> So he's had to drop out
23:23:15 <ais523> doesn't know how to teleport yet?
23:23:32 <ais523> totally worth building a teleportation circle for the improved success rate
23:23:57 <Taneb> He's more of an elements chap than a time and space chap
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23:25:44 <Taneb> I have to say, I am very much enjoying playing a Paladin
23:26:21 <Taneb> A vengeance paladin
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23:34:44 <Taneb> I do need to get better at, like, actually roleplaying
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23:47:41 <Sgeo_> http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/internet-now-officially-too-big-ip-addresses-run-out-n386081
23:48:24 <ais523> Sgeo_: specifically, ARIN's out of large blocks
23:48:33 <ais523> but it still has several smaller ones left, that'll last a few months at least
23:48:45 <ais523> (and ARIN is the company in charge of allocating IPs in north? america)
23:51:59 <Taneb> I'm heading to bed now, goodnight
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04:07:08 <oren> If a youtube video glitches up at the right moment you can get it to go "desudesudesudesudesudesu"
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04:18:51 <oren> I don't know why youtube videos only glitch up when you unpause them after having them paused for a long time
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04:37:15 <Sgeo_> o.O http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/what-happened-on-512k-day/
04:46:13 <tswett> Slightly interesting randomly generated URL: http://www.rsowmroman.com/balonglang/is-monouttical
04:46:29 <tswett> The neural net decided to stick a nick in there.
04:49:16 <oerjan> balonglang, the monouttical language
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04:55:57 <tswett> Huh. I asked the neural net to generate the very most likely thing that "00:00:00: <hackEgo> " could be followed by.
04:56:01 <tswett> Not HackEgo, but hackEgo.
04:56:13 <tswett> The subsequent lines consisted entirely of repetitions of this:
04:56:26 <tswett> 18:48:48: <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Book]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=41408&oldid=41442 * Oerjan * (+1) /* See in the state of the states */
04:57:11 <tswett> So the net apparently knows exactly the most likely time, the most likely page, the most likely oldid, and the most likely editor.
04:58:50 <tswett> This is despite the fact that there is, in fact, no page "Talk:Book".
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05:01:08 <tswett> I asked it for the most likely stuff following "https://". So apparently this exact string is the very most likely URL:
05:01:21 <tswett> https://www.computer.com/states/2000/10/10/the-computer-state-states-one-state-states-one-states-of-complete-states-complete-computer-the-state-states-computer-the-state-state-states-computer-the-state-states-computer-the-state-states-computer-the-state-state-states-one-states-of the statements
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05:36:03 <oerjan> tswett: it seems very fond of states
05:36:23 <quintopia> oerjan: anything interesting happened lately
05:37:09 <oerjan> not within esolangs, anyway
05:37:55 <shachaf> oerjan: how was your 4th of july
05:38:28 <pikhq> I'm American and my 4th mostly was watching anime.
05:38:32 <quintopia> does norge have a day for fireworks
05:38:51 <oerjan> in fact it's the only day it's legal without permission
05:38:55 <pikhq> Though I did have barbecue for lunch. Delicious, delicious barbecue.
05:38:58 <shachaf> it's pretty strange that some countries don't have an independence day
05:39:11 <shachaf> All the countries that I'm a citizen of do.
05:39:23 <oerjan> although trondheim has forbidden it in the city center
05:39:44 <oerjan> hm the uk presumably doesn't
05:39:44 <pikhq> shachaf: Israel, USA?
05:40:00 <pikhq> Oh. Didn't know you had a third one in there.
05:40:31 <fowl> im glad its over
05:40:31 <shachaf> Someone has to drive the bus.
05:40:43 <fowl> fireworks terrified my dogs
05:41:10 <oerjan> also, the week between christmas and new year is the only time ordinary people can legally buy fireworks.
05:41:49 <quintopia> oerjan: we can now legally buy them during the three days before the 4th and during the period you just described.
05:42:03 <oerjan> heh so not that different
05:42:26 <quintopia> we get them twice a year. that's twice as awesome!
05:42:52 <quintopia> (we can buy ground fireworks at any time, this rule is for the mortars and artillery)
05:43:43 <oerjan> norway technically has an independence day but it's not really celebrated much.
05:44:07 <pikhq> In the US, it depends on the state (and possibly also the city).
05:44:11 <oerjan> the national day with all the celebration is the constitution day
05:46:47 <oerjan> shachaf: i assume so? they've cleaned it up lately, added more human rights and stuff, and prepared for the separation of church and state in 2017
05:47:08 <oerjan> and it was rather liberal even back in 1814
05:47:08 <pikhq> There's states that ban all fireworks. There's states that sell fireworks year round.
05:48:23 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, you're actually getting seperation of church and state? That's fabulous.
05:48:24 <oerjan> also, they added parliamentarism, which we've had since 188something but _entirely_ unmentioned.
05:48:54 <pikhq> It's a shame that that's nowhere near as common as it should be.
05:49:06 <pikhq> And even more a shame that there's people who want to end it in the US.
05:49:34 <oerjan> pikhq: more or less. the king somehow managed to insist on keeping his requirement to be christian...
05:49:45 <oerjan> but the church becomes self-governing
05:50:14 <pikhq> Though I'm one of those crazy people who doesn't much care for the idea of "a king". :P
05:50:25 <oerjan> he's a pretty nice guy, all considered
05:50:51 <pikhq> It's the concept I'm opposed to, not necessarily any individual monarch.
05:50:54 <shachaf> The king does have to take an oath before Storting.
05:51:29 * oerjan hasn't actually read the new constitution, mind you. and doesn't remember most of the old.
05:51:40 <shachaf> It looks like the current one Storted in 1991.
05:52:09 <pikhq> Not as though many Americans have read the Constitution either.
05:52:52 <shachaf> ok maybe that wasn't swatworthy
05:53:40 <oerjan> the left socialists in norway customarily makes a proposal in each parliament to abolish monarchy. it's almost as quaint a custom as the monarchy itself.
05:54:20 <oerjan> because even the left socialists think the king is a nice guy
05:55:23 <pikhq> oerjan: The UK has similarly quaint customs. Though, far more... British about them. :)
05:57:39 <oerjan> <shachaf> ok maybe that wasn't swatworthy <-- it was pretty close hth
05:58:05 <shachaf> "Children have the right to respect for their human dignity. They have the right to be heard in questions that concern them, and due weight shall be attached to their views in accordance with their age and development."
05:58:12 <shachaf> does this extend to asking "why?" over and over?
05:58:17 <oerjan> although the way things are going, they're risking dropping out of parliament in the next election.
05:58:30 <shachaf> how much weight is attached to that
05:58:38 <pikhq> e.g. the monarch isn't *allowed* in the House of Commons...
05:59:02 <oerjan> shachaf: you're assuming they get to actually _ask_ the questions.
05:59:11 <pikhq> Which I find kinda funny.
06:01:11 <shachaf> no one thinks the king of finland is a nice guy
06:01:22 <shachaf> norway is way ahead in that respect
06:01:50 <pikhq> Everyone who knows of him things the Emperor of the United States is a nice guy.
06:02:13 <oerjan> they should be up to at least Norton 4 by now
06:02:31 <pikhq> I don't think Norton I had heirs.
06:03:04 <shachaf> what does it take to get swatted around here?
06:03:09 <oerjan> napoleon 3 wasn't a descendant of 1 either
06:03:36 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, i don't get it
06:03:57 <pikhq> Yep, he had no heirs.
06:04:20 <pikhq> Which if we go with standard US inheritance law, would mean that the State of California inherited the throne.
06:04:33 <oerjan> shachaf: your pun had to long edit path length hth
06:04:39 <pikhq> And has, presumably, not seen fit to bestow this upon anyone else.
06:05:14 <pikhq> Long live California I, Emperor of the United States and Protector of Mexico!
06:05:54 <shachaf> "NOW THEREFORE, We Norton I, Deo Gratias, do hereby prohibit the Water Commissioners from signing the Spring Valley Water bill under penalty of decapitation until a sounder system shall have been adopted."
06:06:31 <oerjan> oh one of the things they relatively recently changed in the norwegian constitution was to make the monarchy gender-neutral (with a single generation exception). and at the same time they cut off the heritage line so i think only the current king's descendants count now
06:07:00 <oerjan> (although hm, there may not have been any others before, because his father had only sisters)
06:07:13 <oerjan> no wait, _he_ had only sisters
06:07:22 <oerjan> and his father was an only child
06:08:23 <pikhq> Huh, some alledge that Norton I was the son of Napoleon III.
06:08:25 <oerjan> (the single generation exception is because the crown prince has an older sister, and they thought it was a bit late to switch)
06:10:15 <oerjan> i recall the swedes didn't bother making an exception which meant Victoria suddenly became crown princess
06:12:17 * Sgeo_ has been reading Scandinavia and the World lately
06:17:58 * pikhq finds himself failing at sleep
06:18:30 <pikhq> Thank goodness California is 2 hours behind here.
06:20:29 <shachaf> In California, you get to stay up two hours later in the evening.
06:20:42 <shachaf> And then you get to sleep for two hours longer in the morning before you have to wake up.
06:20:51 <shachaf> That's a total of four hours' advantage.
06:25:57 <oerjan> shachaf for treasurer of california
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07:35:28 <Sgeo_> Open-source CPUs? http://opencores.org/
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08:20:14 <Jafet> If fungot fnords, does tongue drone?
08:20:14 <fungot> Jafet: or are fnord keyboards like that? to test environment? as well
08:22:28 <mroman_> How many fungots do you need to change a lightbulb.
08:22:28 <fungot> mroman_: riastradh, to a search for felleisen in the searchbox...
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09:00:49 <fizzie> You can tell I only removed the nicks from comments of the form "nick: xxx" and not "nick, xxx".
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09:08:49 <Taneb> This morning I made some progress on my IOCCC entry
09:08:52 <Taneb> It now does something
09:10:01 <mroman_> Is that the obfuscation contest?
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09:25:45 <Taneb> The latter I am afraid
09:25:55 <Taneb> I had the idea during the last contest but I didn't get the chance to write it
09:26:02 <Taneb> Or at least I didn't write it
09:27:56 <lifthrasiir> I'm lacking any good idea for IOCCC nowadays
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09:52:36 <mroman_> I'm lacking any good idea in general nowadays
10:09:08 <Taneb> I get distracted really easy and end up with a whole bunch of ideas that I never act on
10:09:33 <Taneb> I often wake up and think I've found a proof to P=NP (it normally turns out to be the proof that NP is in EXPTIME)
10:11:27 <fowl> I have already proven that, im looking for a way to monetize it before i publish it
10:11:56 <Taneb> That NP is in EXPTIME?
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10:29:43 <Taneb> Why doesn't my tab complete treat joins as messages?
10:29:50 <Taneb> Hi, b_jonas as well if you are around
10:30:51 <Taneb> How are you doing, b_jonas ?
10:34:43 <boily> how are y'all by this fine Monday?
10:35:06 <Taneb> Well, I am working from home today
10:35:22 <Taneb> As my supervisor is at a conference in Milan and I don't have a key to the office
10:35:43 <Taneb> But I am not doing great with this work
10:36:15 <Taneb> There are many things I would rather be doing
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10:39:08 <Taneb> I do not have a great work ethic :(
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10:49:58 <boily> still in my waking up phase. just had a bowl of Corn Flakes.
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12:19:42 <mroman_> but not as hot as the last few days.
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12:37:20 <fungot> mroman_: hm. it seems both return " 11", myself just persuaded i that me is wrong."
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12:43:39 <fungot> mroman_: i couldn't defined it except with people to whom it appeals, etc
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13:30:50 <mroman_> Why does Java have dload, iload and whatnot
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13:31:46 <mroman_> aload, fload, dload, iload
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13:42:03 <Jafet> anord, dnord, inord
13:44:26 <fizzie> fungot: If fnord works on FILE *s, does nord work on file descriptors?
13:44:26 <fungot> fizzie: i'd do the kernel in use... i just want to understand it. it seems like he's saying something like good thing ( tm)
13:45:49 <Jafet> Hopefully your kernel uses protected mode.
13:48:19 <fizzie> For a bot to mess with the kernel it's running under, isn't that a bit like doing brain surgery on your own brain?
13:49:47 <mroman_> that way you'll know if you mess up
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13:50:00 <Jafet> It's more like dating your prison warden.
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14:04:28 <coppro> I still can't believe that people speedrun puttputt
14:07:47 <mroman_> if(a.foo == CONST && b.foo == CONST) or if(a.foo == CONST && a.foo == b.foo)
14:08:06 <mroman_> or if(a.foo == b.foo && a.foo == CONST)
14:10:40 <tswett> Look at the assembly output and see.
14:12:05 <tswett> If that's too much work, the speed difference is probably negligible and you should just use whichever one is easiest to understand.
14:14:01 <coppro> and the compiler will probably optimize them all to sthe same thing anyway
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14:14:37 <coppro> (note that it also depends on the surrounding code and the processor. For instance, if you've just accessed a.foo and b.foo on a RISC processor, it's probably fastest to compare them directly first
14:14:46 <coppro> since they'll still be in registers
14:17:47 <mroman_> it might also depend on the frequency of a.foo being equal to b.foo without being CONST
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14:22:11 <fizzie> I concur with the "compiler will do what the compiler wants" point, but if you're curious, here's one example of what might happen: http://sprunge.us/ShXH
14:27:31 <Jafet> If a.foo equals CONST and b.foo equals CONST or if a.foo equals CONST and a.foo equals b.foo or if a.foo equals b.foo and a.foo equals CONST
14:29:05 <b_jonas> fungot :If a.foo equals CONST and b.foo equals CONST or if a.foo equals CONST and a.foo equals b.foo or if a.foo equals b.foo and a.foo equals CONST
14:29:05 <fungot> b_jonas: i get an url to the information that's presumably or easily kept there, go right ahead. i don't
14:29:33 <Jafet> fungot knows that cloud computing is the answer.
14:29:33 <fungot> Jafet: i'm on the other
14:35:22 <fizzie> fungot: What, the other cloud?
14:35:22 <fungot> fizzie: because it sucks. they fixed it :(.
14:35:35 <fizzie> Apparently it was better before being fixed.
14:39:48 <tswett> So all three of them use exactly the same set of instructions, all of which always execute.
14:39:58 <tswett> At least with fizzie's compiler.
14:40:07 <tswett> Assuming fizzie actually used a compiler.
14:40:39 <tswett> Maybe ey just wrote the assembly by hand.
14:41:38 <fizzie> FWIW, 'f' is slightly longer, due to one more immediate than the others.
14:42:51 <tswett> My advice would now be: try each one in your code and see what results in your code running most quickly.
14:44:41 <Jafet> Come now, the proper solution is to try all versions in parallel, interleaving the computations fairly and taking the first one (if any) that halts.
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15:10:49 <mroman_> yeah they all compile to pretty much the same
15:10:55 <mroman_> even though in some version gcc -O3 seems to insert a nop
15:14:54 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/wJpxcuQa
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15:22:17 <fizzie> You even got the good old %eiz register involved.
15:34:57 <tswett> I love how on Stack Exchange sites, you can go look at the worst questions ever asked.
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15:43:07 <tswett> Here's one: http://math.stackexchange.com/questions/1345624/please-write-down-exact-output-after-the-following-statements-are-proceesed
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15:48:29 <Jafet> How about searching for the lowest-rated questions with the highest-rated answers?
16:01:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43427&oldid=41853 * Pgimeno * (+1) /* External resources */ Update a link
16:04:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Malbolge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43428&oldid=43427 * Pgimeno * (+6) /* External resources */ update another link
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19:15:55 <shachaf> Tab completion indicates that HackEgo is in this channel, but I guess not.
19:19:28 <mauris> huh. Are Monads Just: functor thingies where you can collapse the layers in, say, m (m (m (m a))) -> m a , and do so in whichever order you like
19:19:57 <mauris> i guess that would be a semigroup in the category of endofunctors, not a monoid
19:20:55 <shachaf> I.e. a -> m a, m a -> m a, m (m a) -> m a, m (m (m a)) -> m a, ...
19:21:12 <shachaf> This is pretty close the the "monads are just free monad monad monad algebras" thing.
19:21:18 <shachaf> (But not exactly the same.)
19:22:15 <mauris> gotcha. do you need to say something extra for the "left/right identity" monad laws to hold?
19:22:43 <mauris> maybe i should write out those laws in terms of join and see what shows up (but iirc they are actually most clearly about "left/right identity" if you look at >=>)
19:26:04 <shachaf> Yes, you need more than the associativity law.
19:28:04 <mauris> i wonder if "semigroups in the category of endofunctors" are any cool!
19:29:05 <shachaf> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/semigroupoids-5.0.0.2/docs/Data-Functor-Bind.html
19:30:13 <shachaf> Anyway, class Monad m where retract :: Free m a -> m a
19:30:26 <shachaf> The laws are that retract is a T-algebra.
19:30:32 <shachaf> Or something along those lines.
19:34:48 <mauris> whoa, the associativity law really does become join (g <$> join (f <$> m)) === join (join (g <$> f <$> m)) if you fiddle with it enough!!
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19:35:20 <zzo38> There is many possible way of a monad defining, such as, the monad laws is: The Kleisli category is
19:37:56 <mauris> shachaf: looks like Map is the only nifty thing listed there that isn't a Monad, and that one isn't a Monad only for a sort of silly reason :(
19:38:35 <zzo38> Any category with more than one object has at least one more monad than the number of final objects it has.
19:38:44 <mauris> imo zzo38 should write a good ol' monad tutorial
19:47:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43429&oldid=42809 * 108.236.129.107 * (-11) Removed example of "b****fuck" being used to censor the name because it doesn't censor the offensive part.
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19:49:08 <mauris> b****s are gross though, ew
19:53:49 <int-e> somebody has no sense of humor
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21:45:31 <lambdabot> ENVA 062120Z 29020KT 8000 RA FEW003 SCT009 BKN014 13/12 Q0999 RMK WIND 670FT 30023KT
21:45:53 <boily> @ask oerjan how's summer so far?
21:47:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43430&oldid=43429 * Rdebath * (+11) Undo revision 43429 by [[Special:Contributions/108.236.129.107|108.236.129.107]] ([[User talk:108.236.129.107|talk]]) Someone else didn't get the joke.
21:50:44 <lambdabot> CYVR 062100Z 14007KT 100V170 8SM BKN038 OVC220 26/12 A2997 RMK FU5SC1CI2 SLP149 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
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21:51:12 <boily> FU? first time I've seen that kind of cloud.
21:51:26 <boily> fungot: is it a FUngout cloud?
21:51:26 <fungot> boily: later tell psy-kosh i understand negative temperatures much better since they forbid users to use it
21:51:46 <boily> ah, it's a negative temperature fungot cloud. mystery cleared.
21:51:47 <fungot> boily: ( use srfi-1)") it will all look like functions but use different philosophies
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22:09:12 <MDude> Looks like functions but uses different pilosophies, huh?
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22:15:07 <boily> MDudello. this is fungot we're talking about. he thinks on another completely different level.
22:15:08 <fungot> boily: with the original superman actor? i've heard of them before. but with a lot of countries just keep their mouths shut and stop babbling. which would that be
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22:17:42 <lambdabot> boily asked 31m 49s ago: how's summer so far?
22:18:12 <oerjan> @tell boily variable, but mostly cold.
22:19:45 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1m 31s ago: variable, but mostly cold.
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22:21:17 <shachaf> this channel is suffering from LackEgo
22:21:42 <Wright> Thanks, but I've been here for a while
22:21:49 <oerjan> @tell fizzie HackEgo is in outer space again
22:22:26 <oerjan> now you just need a Rong.
22:23:57 <boily> fungot: can you be an interim HackEgo?
22:23:57 <fungot> boily: ah! i was going insane trying to use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/ new/ scheme
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22:52:54 <oerjan> and the award for best channel-killing question goes to...
22:53:09 <oerjan> (half killing, channel was pretty dead already)
22:55:01 <zzo38> "FU" seems to mean smoke; there was smoke here yesterday
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22:57:07 <singingboyo> zzo38: where are you? The west coast up near Vancouver is a mess of smoke right now, air quality warning is at 8/10
22:57:56 * oerjan is pretty sure that's approximately where zzo38 is
22:58:32 <singingboyo> oerjan: would make sense, I mostly curious whether it's hit Seattle or anywhere else sort of close
22:59:06 <oerjan> i can report that trondheim, norway is remarkably smoke-free, possibly on account of being thoroughly soaked hth
23:00:35 <lambdabot> KSEA 062253Z VRB04KT 10SM FEW040 BKN250 28/12 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP159 T02830122
23:00:56 <singingboyo> well, no FU clouds, if that's actually smoke
23:01:02 <lambdabot> KOAK 062253Z 27015KT 10SM SCT200 22/13 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP174 T02220128
23:01:15 <lambdabot> KSJC 062253Z 32016G21KT 10SM FEW100 BKN160 24/13 A3003 RMK AO2 SLP168 T02390133 $
23:05:01 <lambdabot> ENVA 062250Z 29021KT 8000 RA FEW009 BKN020 13/12 Q0999 RMK WIND 670FT 30023KT
23:05:39 <oerjan> i think 13/12 means it's pretty humid
23:05:46 <zzo38> I am at Delta, here the smoke is cleared up a bit
23:07:14 <singingboyo> zzo38: ah. Can see the outline of the mountains from Burnaby again, so there's that
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23:22:27 <oerjan> hm present iwc poll presents a problem
23:22:35 <oerjan> should i answer atlantic or pacific
23:23:21 <oerjan> i have, on two occasions, been at beaches on a pacific coast. but they were long ago and i cannot remember if i swam or not.
23:24:56 <oerjan> (they were both as part of the same trip in 1988)
23:25:42 <oerjan> i do, however, clearly remember the horrible sunburn i got.
23:29:57 <oerjan> on the irregular webcomic frontpage...
23:30:25 <shachaf> Oh, I searched the front page with C-f.
23:32:02 <shachaf> 1988 wasn't that long ago on the scale of the pacific ocean hth
23:33:47 <oerjan> also, i'm wondering if dmm's promise to write an annotation on anything you want if you support him at patreon will ever come back to bite him
23:36:31 <shachaf> How do I tell whether HackEgo's in the channel?
23:36:49 <shachaf> Tab completion tells me that it is but seems unreliable.
23:36:55 <shachaf> /names fills the screen up with spam.
23:37:08 <oerjan> yes, it breaks if HackEgo has made a wiki announcement since you joined
23:38:10 <oerjan> i guess cycling the channel is also spammy
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00:26:31 <oren> idea: everything is a void***... (infinite number of *)
00:28:35 <MDude> Sounds pretty philosophical.
00:28:37 <nortti> what operations could one do on those? assign, dereference, reference, compare equality?
00:28:55 <oren> then we represent an integer N as a void **n such that **n=n and *n-n = N
00:29:41 <oren> in oter words a pointer loop of length 1 and "span" N
00:33:05 <oren> this means that you can;t just stick an integer anywhere. if *A is "2" then *(A+1) can't contain "1" or "-1", and *(A+2) would obviously contain "-2"
00:34:08 <tswett> Here, have some randomly generated #esoteric quotes: http://lpaste.net/136069
00:34:20 <tswett> "hmm, but the program doesn't work with a little message"
00:36:05 <nortti> "Like, I saw some implementations of a mathematician" :D
00:36:11 <nortti> how were these generated
00:36:41 <oren> I hate it when compilers can't annoy my instructions
00:37:19 <oren> nortti: a neural net apparentluy
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00:49:48 <tswett> Karpathy's Internet-famous one.
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01:16:28 <MDude> What esoteric coding things you itnerested in?
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01:48:07 <tswett> Looks like in order to build this one, I need "a cross-compiling copy of binutils".
01:48:46 <coppro> I think you need to sacrifice a virgin to get one
01:49:14 <tswett> Fortunately, it just so happens...
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03:27:42 <MDude> Did you mean to link something there, hppavilion1noili
03:28:25 <MDude> Well I'm actually off to bed at the moment.
03:28:34 <MDude> Sleep based esolands.
03:29:02 <MDude> We cal those we dreams.
03:30:50 * MDude jumps into the air in front of a banner reading "Unstopunble".
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03:34:46 <MDude> Other ideas for sleep esolangs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dream#Neurological_theories
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03:43:12 <oerjan> hm sleepfuck is like brainfuck, except the IP sometimes inexplicably jumps between parts of the program that look similar.
03:43:59 <oerjan> so the program evolution looks locally like it makes sense, but not when you try to put it all together.
03:45:09 <oerjan> sometimes i wonder if real life is like that.
03:48:56 <oerjan> sorry, making a brainfuck derivative on the wiki would destroy my cred tdnh
03:49:28 <oerjan> also risk a brain bricking
03:51:45 <pikhq> But how can you call yourself a member of #esoteric without a Brainfuck derivative?
04:00:29 <zzo38> How many bricks you need to make it?
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04:07:01 <oerjan> FreeFull: itym -bolge hth
04:07:40 <FreeFull> Ah, right, Malbolge for the language, Malborge for the circle of hell
04:07:53 <oerjan> no, Malebolge for the circle.
04:09:41 <oerjan> malborge is a misspelling which i've somehow seen around lately.
04:11:03 <oerjan> just change your nick to FleeFurr and claim it was all on pulpose.
04:11:28 <FreeFull> Or maybe Furfur and say I'm an angel
04:13:14 <Sgeo_> *le sigh* https://www.reddit.com/r/self/comments/3cbt5c/please_stop_downvoting_ellen_paos_comments/
04:15:13 <oerjan> to complete the irony, ellen pao needs to respond there and be downvoted to oblivion.
04:16:51 <ppro> the popcorn has been great this week
04:19:16 <oerjan> surely you mean the poprn
04:22:30 <Sgeo_> I almost freaked out when I saw ais523 making changes to the Wikihack wikia, but that was just to mention the Nethackwiki
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07:48:08 <mroman_> incrementing is & and decrementing is *
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09:10:37 <zzo38> How can I make Mozilla use a HTTP proxy for an arbitrary URI scheme and otherwise assume it is like HTTP?
09:13:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I doubt you'd be able to convince mozilla to do that. maybe if you recompile the whole thing and modify its source, or if you just get another browser for this.
09:14:57 <zzo38> There is a ALLOWS_PROXY_HTTP flag, but I am not sure how to make it work
09:15:23 <b_jonas> also, "low potassium", hehe
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10:05:15 <lambdabot> LOWI 070950Z 28004KT 230V320 9999 FEW075 30/19 Q1016 NOSIG
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10:25:40 <mroman_> zzo38: How would it handle urn:foo:9 then
10:29:10 <zzo38> mroman_: I don't mean all URIs, I mean only schemes I specify. For example if kerjejr:// is specified then it will do "GET kerjejr://whatever"
10:30:06 <zzo38> And if https:// is specified then it does that for https:// and so on, but does not apply to any other URI (such as telnet:// or whatever)
10:34:35 <boily> fizzie: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWIGNAHARGHFLBLGLFLBLBLBLBLBL!
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10:39:02 <mroman_> Somebody should make a formula age(x) where x is the number of Pokémons a person knows
10:44:32 <mroman_> You only know one Pokémon?
10:45:11 <Taneb> int-e, there's like at least 17 pokemon
10:45:20 <mroman_> my generation should know about 150 Pokémons
10:45:43 <mroman_> future generations should know more
10:45:47 <mroman_> and past generation should know less
10:45:59 <mroman_> the formula might not be very precise for old people
10:46:23 <boily> do I have to know their numbers, their names, their appearance, or just that there are 151 pokémons and no more?
10:46:31 <int-e> mroman_: Last I checked I considered myself human :P
10:46:45 <mroman_> Well... the website would display images of Pokémons and you will select those that appear familiar to you
10:46:49 <mroman_> I guess that's the easiest way
10:46:55 <mroman_> and then it will calculate your age based on that
10:47:40 <zzo38> You have to know their number, name, colors, elements, and hit-points
10:47:42 <mroman_> images are probably too copyrighted
10:48:39 <int-e> In that case I know none of them. I've heard there's a franchise with several games... something about collecting them all...
10:48:53 <int-e> I found it stupid as a teenager, never got over that first impression ;)
10:49:10 <mroman_> Yeah, I'll treat you as an outlier.
10:49:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, I'm quite sure I don't recognize that many pokemons
10:49:39 <mroman_> I should be able to recognize roughly 150
10:49:44 <b_jonas> oh, you also have to know their number, name, colors, elements and hit points? I wouldn't know all that for any pokemon
10:50:05 <mroman_> I can probably link names to images
10:50:08 <b_jonas> int-e: what? the "collect them all" is only a tagline, isn't it?
10:50:23 <int-e> b_jonas: you're asking the wrong person.
10:50:33 <zzo38> Then you are not a real pokemon fan
10:50:39 <b_jonas> I could probably link about... I dunno, five or ten between names and images
10:52:25 <zzo38> Ten isn't quite enough
10:52:48 <zzo38> Yes, but, Pikachu is #25
10:53:00 <b_jonas> wait, do you have to tell their colors from the image? I think I could guess that for more than ten
10:53:22 <b_jonas> but telling all of the number, name, colors, elements and hit points together? definitely not
10:56:38 <zzo38> Go to the kind of hotel that the color of lights in elevator for each floor, tell you which room number on that floor by the pokemons of that color, rather than grouping 100-199 on one floor and 200-299 on next floor, you do by pokemon numbers colors by floors
10:57:26 <zzo38> Do you like this kind of idea?
10:58:14 <Taneb> I think it could cause problems
10:59:41 <zzo38> Yes I suppose so, although this is something in a dream of such a hotel (dream is very strange things), but also might be good to people who like pokemon
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11:04:50 <fizzie> boily: Is that better?
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11:08:55 <Taneb> There can only be one
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11:11:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: would it be a full pokemon themed hotel, or just a few little things like the room numbering?
11:19:36 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think I don't know?
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11:53:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Paintfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43431&oldid=36074 * Pgimeno * (+132) /* External paintfuck programs */ Add an interesting decimal counter (the link to the other one is apparently broken)
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12:02:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Paintfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43432&oldid=43431 * Pgimeno * (+7) /* External resources */ Point link to canvas version - Canvas element is ubiquitous nowadays
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13:04:51 <lambdabot> LOWI 071250Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW080 36/17 Q1013 NOSIG
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13:47:59 <mroman_> it's so hot you need gloves to open the door.
13:48:15 <mroman_> because the door handle will burn your hand.
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14:40:11 <mroman_> Aren't there air conditioners that cool by heating water?
14:40:19 <mroman_> or is that physically impossible anyway
14:40:32 <mroman_> the usual air conditioners require a tube for the hot air that is coming out of them
14:40:47 <mroman_> which means you need a whole in the wall somewhere
14:41:04 <mroman_> and you can't make a hole in the wall if it's a rented room :D
14:42:18 <mroman_> so instead of producing hot air they should produce hot water
14:42:25 <mroman_> (obviously below boiling temperature)
14:42:39 <mroman_> from time to time you'll have to empty the water and replace it with cool water
14:53:04 <FreeFull> mroman_: Sure, that'd be possible
14:53:45 <FreeFull> It'd probably have to be a closed container of water to prevent evaporation
14:54:01 <FreeFull> Water does have a high enough heat capacity for this to be possible
14:55:27 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
14:59:10 <mroman_> 34 degrees room temperature isn't very funny
15:01:11 <Taneb> mroman_, make sure you are drinking enough water!
15:03:54 <MDude> Instead of putting heat outside, put the air conditioner in the doorway so it heats the rest of the building.
15:05:06 <FreeFull> MDude: I don't think you want to heat the building when it's already 34°C
15:05:46 <MDude> But now it's the rest of the building's problem, and they can use another air conditioner to move that heat further toward a window.
15:06:44 <MDude> Either that, or one could get a fridge or freezer and run it outside/in a garage or similarly ventable area.
15:07:02 <MDude> Then just cool something with a large heat capacity and bring it indoors to absorb lots of heat.
15:08:14 <Jafet> http://google.com/search?q=linux+pipe+buffer+size
15:10:44 <Jafet> This confirms my belief that google will be the one to achieve the semantic web
15:12:05 <FreeFull> Duckduckgo does pretty well too
15:12:57 <FreeFull> Although for that particular query it doesn't show a box on top, I've seen it show boxes with stackoverflow answers before for other things
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15:16:41 <HackEgo> 1240) <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist <ais523> they're so unnatural
15:25:38 <shachaf> https://encrypted.google.com/search?q=largest+known+prime+number
15:26:06 <shachaf> It used to say 257,885,161, but they fixed it.
15:27:20 <Taneb> It says 17,425,170 now for me
15:29:16 <Taneb> Which is neither prime nor particularly large
15:30:42 <int-e> that's the number of digits
15:31:04 <Taneb> It is not the largest known prime number
15:32:26 <int-e> Well for me it says 2^57885161 − 1, which has 17425170 digits.
15:33:25 <Taneb> It has the number I wrote as the heading for me
15:34:17 <shachaf> Taneb: That number is pretty large.
15:34:33 <Taneb> I can think of bigger numbers
15:34:35 <int-e> actually google doesn't show any of these things for me ... the boxes are one of the things they omit (by refreshing the page immediately) when javascript is disabled
15:37:38 <mroman_> IANA is asking me weird questions :)
15:38:31 <mroman_> about my port registration request
15:44:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: what questions exactly?
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16:21:29 <FreeFull> Fun fact: We don't even know if there are infinitely many Mersenne primes
16:22:20 <FreeFull> But if you're looking for really large primes, you'll invariably look for Mersenne primes
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16:26:46 <Jafet> Real languages are like real numbers. Many problems can't be solved with them, and using them for analysis is terrible.
16:32:22 <Jafet> You know, if google wants to, it can easily update the result for the largest known prime
16:32:36 <Jafet> "As of March 2013, GIMPS has a sustained aggregate throughput of approximately 137.023 TFLOP/s"
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20:00:59 <zzo38> mroman_: Yes, what kind of question, please?
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21:17:37 <tswett> For the most secure RSA key possible, you should multiply together the two largest known primes.
21:20:48 <tswett> Wikipedia asserts that ancient Greek mathematicians discovered that 3 is a prime number.
21:21:37 <tswett> Sort of an interesting discovery, insofar as it sounds like barely a discovery at all.
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21:31:25 <Taneb> tswett, sometimes, 2 is a prime number too!
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22:01:41 <lambdabot> CYUL 072138Z 18008G15KT 15SM FEW030TCU SCT060 BKN160 BKN240 27/22 A2978 RMK TCU2SC2AC1CI2 SLP085 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
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22:18:14 <lambdabot> CYVR 072200Z 22008G16KT 190V280 15SM OVC037 22/15 A2995 RMK FU7SC1 SLP143 DENSITY ALT 700FT
22:18:44 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:20:06 <singingboyo> huh, wonder what that 7SC1 after the smoke indicator means
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22:30:19 <shachaf> boily: whoa whoa whoa, you're coming to california?
22:31:42 <shachaf> where else would you be [redacted]
22:33:35 <boily> I don't really [redacted], I prefer to [expunged] while I *BLEEP* (of course, pineapples are moved beforehand).
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22:35:37 * boily wonders how many Californian pineapples there are
22:39:16 <boily> singingboyo: FU7 is some kind of cloud occupying 7/8th of the sky. SC1 are stratocumulus sitting at 1/8th of the sky.
22:39:54 <boily> (it was approximatively determined the other day that FU clouds are negative temperature fungot clouds hth)
22:40:22 <lambdabot> KOAK 072153Z 27015KT 10SM FEW018 SCT180 22/14 A2997 RMK AO2 SLP146 T02170139
22:45:36 <lambdabot> ENVA 072150Z 34006KT 9999 FEW020 BKN045 10/06 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 33007KT
22:46:11 <HackEgo> wfraatw/A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
22:46:36 <oerjan> how is that well-founded, exactly
22:46:50 <oerjan> looks pretty self-referential to me
22:47:21 <oerjan> i suppose the definition might be impredicative.
22:49:06 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
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23:44:38 <HackEgo> Å/Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
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23:47:00 <HackEgo> bonvenon/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
23:47:07 <HackEgo> elliott/elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
23:47:30 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Taneb oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan tswett shachaf int-e shachaf tswett shachaf tswett oerjan shachaf oerjan shachaf ais523 int-e int-e int-e int-e shachaf int-e mroman_ oren_ oren_ oerjan oerjan oerjan shachaf shacha
23:47:31 -!- BlueProtoman has joined.
23:48:38 <boily> `relcome BlueProtoman
23:48:39 <HackEgo> BlueProtoman: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:49:06 <BlueProtoman> boily: Thank you, but I've been here before. Been lurking the wiki for years, actually
23:50:11 <boily> have you created any esolangs?
23:50:52 <BlueProtoman> No, but I implemented Brainfuck and a small extension thereof back in high school.
23:51:29 <BlueProtoman> Also, how the hell does HackEgo do those colors?
23:53:11 <int-e> BlueProtoman: you can complain to the mirc developers for that. http://www.mirc.com/colors.html
23:54:00 <int-e> BlueProtoman: which implements the same color codes...
23:54:26 <int-e> Afaik mirc invented them. So that's where you should take the blame ;-)
23:54:45 <BlueProtoman> I'm not complaining. I just never seem to get them right!
23:54:52 <int-e> (irssi implements them as well, but at least it's possible to disable them)
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00:08:15 <fowl> Pretty sure the colors and formatting are in the rfc
00:20:15 <lambdabot> CYYZ 080000Z 34010KT 15SM SCT016 BKN030 OVC100 21/18 A2985 RMK CU3SC3AC2 SLP106 DENSITY ALT 1400FT
00:20:52 <boily> helloren. hot and humid in the Big T?
00:21:14 <HackEgo> selamlar/Ezoterik programlama dili tasarım ve dağıtım için uluslararası merkezi hoş geldiniz! Http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page: Daha fazla bilgi için, bizim wiki göz atın. (Esoterica diğer tür için, irc.dal.net üzerinde #esoteric deneyin.)
00:22:20 <boily> ̀welcome question: were all `welcomes human translated, or are some of them generated through our friend Google?
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00:23:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yokoso: not found
00:23:15 <boily> `` ls bin/welcome*
00:23:47 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
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00:49:32 <MDude> From the name, it could be a good summer language.
00:50:28 <Sgeo_> "Plan 9 has thus improved in two ways not usually
00:50:28 <Sgeo_> seen together: it has become more secure
00:50:28 <Sgeo_> and easier to use."
00:50:50 <MDude> Looks like it's based on artificial neurons.
00:51:13 <hppavilion[1]> Could be useful in neural networks with some deminimalization
00:53:41 <boily> helloppavilion[1]!
00:53:52 <boily> how dare you being lâchement AFK?
00:54:20 <boily> I happen to have written Zucchini.
00:56:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
00:56:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `help: not found
00:56:18 <HackEgo> BOFH excuse #101: \ \ Collapsed Backbone
00:56:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
00:56:56 <HackEgo> y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y \ y
00:57:18 <hppavilion[1]> A slightly higher-level and more legible Zucchini might actually be useful
00:57:31 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: break: not found
00:57:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: destruct: not found
00:57:43 <boily> hppavilion[1]: legibility goes against generic esotericism hth
00:57:46 <Sgeo_> " For example, someone could reset a machine and reboot it with a debugger instead of a kernel, allowing them to examine the contents of memory and find keys. We have not found a satisfactory solution to this problem "
00:57:57 <boily> BlueProtoman: good luck.
00:58:03 <Sgeo_> I guess full-HD encryption?
00:58:13 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ while true: pass; \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
00:58:29 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ while true:\tpass; \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
00:58:32 <Sgeo_> Or just encryption of factotum's files with a master password
00:58:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: node: not found
00:58:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: nodejs: not found
00:58:56 <hppavilion[1]> boily: even though it's against esoterism, I'm discussing a language that's only semiesoteric
00:59:11 <hppavilion[1]> Semiesoterism allows legibility while still being really cool
00:59:28 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "while True: pass;" \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
00:59:56 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "while True: pass" \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
00:59:57 <oren> Interesting fact: my job involves working in two languages that don't exist outside the company
01:00:25 <BlueProtoman> Why does your company need to reinvent the wheel?
01:00:38 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you could define a zucchini derivative. perhaps call it “courgette”.
01:01:15 <oerjan> <boily> ̀welcome question: were all `welcomes human translated, or are some of them generated through our friend Google? <-- pretty sure google had a hand in some
01:01:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:01:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: :(){: not found
01:01:50 <HackEgo> sh: 0: Can't open :(){ :|:& };:
01:02:23 <boily> another name for a zucchini. it's the same thing.
01:02:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shutdown: not found
01:03:02 <oren> One is a secret C++ derivative, the other is called Salmon
01:03:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: poweroff: not found
01:03:44 <HackEgo> cat: /usr/bin/cat: No such file or directory
01:04:03 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....'@.....@.................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@................................8......8@.....8@............................................@.......@................... ..................`.....`................... .................`.....`............................
01:04:04 <oren> http://www.cod5.org/archive/s/salmon.html
01:04:27 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you can't create the most amazing language ever. in that position resides Feather.
01:05:01 <HackEgo> gcc: fatal error: no input files \ compilation terminated.
01:05:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ghc: not found
01:05:23 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/python: No such file or directory
01:05:29 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....L.....@.......
01:05:43 <HackEgo> ELF............>.....[@.....@................@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@.....ܶ.....ܶ....... ...................h......h.....(......h+........ ................h.....h............................
01:05:49 <HackEgo> Usage: more [options] file... \ \ Options: \ -d display help instead of ring bell \ -f count logical, rather than screen lines \ -l suppress pause after form feed \ -p suppress scroll, clean screen and disblay text \ -c suppress scroll, display text and clean line ends \ -u suppress underlining
01:05:56 <HackEgo> \ ******** /usr/bin/gcc: Not a text file ********
01:06:07 <oren> hppavilion[1]: Yeas. that is the website that the inventor of salmon set up
01:06:23 <HackEgo> /etc/passwd: No such file or directory
01:06:39 <HackEgo> ~/.bashrc: No such file or directory
01:06:44 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ~: No such file or directory
01:06:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
01:07:09 <HackEgo> man: can't open the manpath configuration file /etc/manpath.config
01:07:35 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
01:09:54 <BlueProtoman> `python -c "import os; while True: os.fork();"
01:09:55 <HackEgo> File "<string>", line 1 \ "import os; while True: os.fork();" \ ^ \ IndentationError: unexpected indent
01:10:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: clisp: not found
01:10:28 <boily> hppavilion[1]: don't worry. this was the most hastily and confusingly written article about an esolang I created.
01:11:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:11:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `perl: not found
01:11:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
01:11:38 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
01:11:45 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
01:11:47 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, at EOF \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
01:12:39 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bomb(): not found
01:13:00 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \
01:13:37 <BlueProtoman> `echo #include <unistd.h> int main(void) { while(1) fork();} > oops.c
01:13:37 <HackEgo> #include <unistd.h> int main(void) { while(1) fork();} > oops.c
01:13:56 <HackEgo> cat: oops.c: No such file or directory
01:13:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \
01:14:25 <boily> ah, the three blahs are still there.
01:14:55 <BlueProtoman> `echo #include <unistd.h> \ int main(void) { while(1) fork();} > oops.c
01:14:56 <HackEgo> #include <unistd.h> \ int main(void) { while(1) fork();} > oops.c
01:15:05 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ letersort \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \
01:15:41 <BlueProtoman> hppavilion[1]: Ten bucks says it's sudo-protected
01:15:45 <oren> `` ls -a blah*
01:15:47 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
01:15:57 <HackEgo> rm: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `rm --help' for more information.
01:16:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sudo: not found
01:16:07 <HackEgo> su: Cannot determine your user name.
01:16:20 <shachaf> Please stop. This is unpleasant.
01:16:20 <oren> `` ls -h blah *
01:16:21 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
01:16:30 <oren> `` ls -h blah*
01:16:49 <oren> `` ls -b blah*
01:17:54 <oren> `` ls blah* | od
01:17:55 <HackEgo> 0000000 066142 064141 061012 060554 020150 020134 066142 064141 \ 0000020 000012 \ 0000021
01:18:15 <oren> `` ls blah* | od -t x1
01:18:16 <HackEgo> 0000000 62 6c 61 68 0a 62 6c 61 68 20 5c 20 62 6c 61 68 \ 0000020 0a \ 0000021
01:18:25 <oren> `` ls blah* | od -t c
01:18:26 <HackEgo> 0000000 b l a h \n b l a h \ b l a h \ 0000020 \n \ 0000021
01:18:49 <oren> `` echo blah* | od -t c
01:18:50 <HackEgo> 0000000 b l a h b l a h \ b l a h \ 0000020 \n \ 0000021
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01:20:27 <oren> `` echo blah* | od -t o1
01:20:27 <HackEgo> 0000000 142 154 141 150 040 142 154 141 150 040 134 040 142 154 141 150 \ 0000020 012 \ 0000021
01:21:37 <oren> `` ls 'blah / blah'
01:21:38 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access blah / blah: No such file or directory
01:21:44 <oren> `` ls 'blah \ blah'
01:22:30 <oren> there is a file named ``blah'' and a file named ``blah \ blah''
01:23:00 <oren> `` touch 'blah \ blah \ blah'
01:23:19 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access b*: No such file or directory
01:23:27 <HackEgo> blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah \ blah
01:24:52 <oerjan> <shachaf> Please stop. This is unpleasant. <-- no it's disturbingly fascinating hth
01:25:17 <shachaf> oerjan: are you sure that's a no?
01:26:00 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaaan
01:30:47 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: mad: not found
01:30:54 <HackEgo> madness/madness lies thataway.
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02:13:04 <Sgeo_> "Could not find The Game Of Life CD-ROM registry entry. Please re-install."
02:13:18 <Sgeo_> A... registry entry to locate the CD drive that it was installed from?
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02:28:33 <hppavilion[1]> You're just one of the few people that I recognize who is online
02:28:56 <MDude> I'll be headed to bed soon, but what is this Courgette?
02:30:47 <MDude> I haven't read into the details of Zucchini much yet.
02:31:06 <MDude> There's another esolang designed for neural net related stuff if you're interested.
02:31:44 <MDude> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Wittgen
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02:32:02 <hppavilion[1]> I through out zucchini's syntax so it'll be possible to write
02:32:06 <MDude> Rather than being made to implement neural networks, it's made to be implemented by neural networks.
02:32:35 <hppavilion[1]> Now that I think about it, it isn't really a derivative so much as a similar idea
02:32:47 <MDude> So it could be good for adding higher level structures.
02:33:13 <MDude> There's also Pure Data, which I was thinking of using to make a neural network system.
02:33:34 <MDude> It's not made for them, but it's a data flow language with a graphical editor.
02:34:28 <MDude> It's meant to simulate analog circuits.
02:34:46 <MDude> So it processes data in batches, which flow through wires.
02:36:48 <MDude> Doesn't sound bad.
02:37:07 <MDude> Zucchini actually seems like a dataflow language for the most part.
02:37:29 <MDude> Might want to use that as the basis of the neural network system I want to make in PD.
03:00:13 <tswett> Well, I guess Wittgen is a little bit interesting.
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03:19:48 <fowl> prolog makes a lot more sense now than it did when i was 15
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03:58:36 <zzo38> I don't really like XML much though
03:59:19 <zzo38> For markup like HTML it can do (and has a few advantages over HTML, such as the /> syntax), both for most thing probably not as good
04:01:32 <zzo38> There are other formats such as JSON, RELOAD, ARF, RDF, etc. For directed graphs RDF could do
04:03:41 <zzo38> (There is also SQL)
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04:34:07 <HackEgo> Ø/Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
04:34:28 <HackEgo> hagb4rd/hagb4rd is one spacey fellow. Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
04:34:43 <HackEgo> hmph/His Master's Phonetic Hmph
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05:37:31 <HackEgo> procrastination/The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube.
05:38:11 <shachaf> `` culprits wisdom/*pumpkin
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07:02:14 <mroman_> Procrasticy is like democracy except that nobody is ever going to vote.
07:05:04 <mroman_> zzo38: Such as "What data is being transmitted" and wether it has something to do with mroman.ch/lang.html (they stalked my webpage apparentely)
07:15:04 <zzo38> mroman_: I forgot what your response is replying to, sorry
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08:46:15 <mroman_> zzo38: The idea of the protocol is roughly that a client connects, selects the language and language options, transmits the program and then switches to streaming stdin to the server
08:46:22 <mroman_> while receiving stdout (stream) from the server
08:46:34 <mroman_> thus allowing interactive programs to run as well
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09:14:14 <mroman_> These clothing guidelines for girl at school discussions are weird...
09:14:39 <mroman_> they should base those on studies
09:14:54 <mroman_> a.) find studies that states that girls in sexy clothing distract guys
09:15:17 <mroman_> b.) if so, find studies that state that it's either a mostly biological reaction that can't really be helped reasonably
09:15:36 <mroman_> although some studies suggest that when guys see good looking girls their performance actually increases somewhat
09:16:11 <mroman_> ... or that you can retrain boys to not get distracted
09:16:36 <mroman_> then we need to decide if retraining boys not to look at girls in sexy clothing actually makes sense
09:17:25 <mroman_> and once we have those results we also need to decide if that is enough justification for clothing guidelines at schools
09:18:55 <Taneb> I don't see why it is done at the school level
09:19:22 <Taneb> If clothing is that distracting why is it not as distracting to, eg, shopkeepers, bank people, etc
09:20:10 <Taneb> If it is not distracting to them, when it did it stop? Do boys upon graduation from high school suddenly become immune to something that apparently was previously crippling?
09:26:37 <mroman_> they are at least out of puberty once they leave school
09:28:13 <b_jonas> Taneb: bank people already wear something close to uniforms with a few choices, they're definitely not allowed to wear sexy clothes
09:28:29 <Taneb> b_jonas, I mean what if they get distracted by their customers
09:28:42 <b_jonas> Taneb: that's not something you can control so easily
09:28:56 <Taneb> b_jonas, there are laws against, eg, walking into a bank naked
09:29:19 <b_jonas> Taneb: well sure, but they can't be as specific as how much you can control what to wear for work or school
09:29:41 <b_jonas> people have to be able to walk into a bank and do other things without having to change cloths
09:30:52 <b_jonas> also I think a bank worker (or a doctor even more) already has to be somewhat resistant to these kinds of distractions, because they sometimes have to find out about disturbing parts of the personal lives of clients.
09:31:07 <b_jonas> and while everyone has to go to school, not everyone has to work in a bank.
09:31:29 <b_jonas> the few people that are really distracted can take a different job.
09:31:50 <b_jonas> this is much more true for doctors than for bank workers of course.
09:32:25 <b_jonas> oh, and if you're distracted by sexy clothes, you can probably still work as a bank clerk that meets clients only by telephone
09:33:16 <mroman_> appearences influence others
09:33:45 <b_jonas> there's also the fact that a bank clerk is working supervised by a security guard and usually by other workers, whereas schoolboys aren't always supervised.
09:33:50 <mroman_> studies have clearly shown that
09:33:57 <mroman_> being good looking has a lot of advantages
09:34:06 <mroman_> more favors, more trust etc.
09:34:47 <mroman_> you can manipulate other people easier
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12:31:48 <mroman_> fungot: Are you good looking?
12:31:49 <fungot> mroman_: rm -fr and unzip the file i was editing
12:32:12 <mroman_> Error: Can't remove France.
12:34:03 <mroman_> fungot: maybe you're rich?
12:34:03 <fungot> mroman_: please read the srfi-7 document again. annoying stuff.
12:35:48 <mroman_> Scheme Request For Implementation
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13:39:13 <fizzie> They're a bit like RFCs for Scheme stuff.
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16:27:18 <Taneb> I just had a dream where I was a fairly successful pickpocket
16:28:12 <hppavilion[1]> I'm trying to think of a good name for my Neural Net language...
16:29:58 <hppavilion[1]> I'm changing the working title to N# because it's better
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16:48:06 <HackEgo> olist 993: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
16:50:28 <fizzie> hppavilion[1]: If you want to follow the main sequence, it would be N, then N++, then two competitive languages N# and O.
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16:51:08 <fizzie> Well, chronologically speaking, anyway.
16:56:18 <hppavilion[1]> Should I give N networking support (socketry), or should I save that for N# or N++ or something?
16:58:43 <hppavilion[1]> What do you think fizzie? I suppose I should trust some arbitrary IRCer's opinion :P :P :P
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17:00:15 <fizzie> Well, by way of analogy, N and N++ should not have networking in the standard library, but each of them should have low-level OS-specific networking facilities, and lots of third-party portable stuff on top; and N# should have networking in the standard library.
17:01:07 <fizzie> Also you should probably wait about 11 years after N to release N++, and then maybe 17 years more for N#.
17:01:48 <hppavilion[1]> N, N++, and N# are going to be posted around the same time, though implementations may be separated by months or even years.
17:02:08 <fizzie> By the way, there is a F, it's just not related to F#.
17:02:18 <fizzie> (It's a Fortrany thing.)
17:03:35 <fizzie> I think there were programming languages (at least if your definitions are flexible enough, and you're willing to look at things niche enough) for all single letters A through Z.
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17:18:51 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tdY8oin0nVwhbrKWGFBm3tNvh_iGxElzdMKGG8GZKn4/edit?usp=sharing
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17:41:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43433 * Hppavilion1 * (+363) Created Page
17:42:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[N]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43434&oldid=43433 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Moved stub
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18:49:45 <shachaf> I didn't realize you were back.
18:51:31 <shachaf> Did you ever hear about the revert issue?
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19:14:00 <HackEgo> fternooner/fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
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20:22:18 <lambdabot> CYVR 082000Z 22007KT 190V280 15SM SKC 21/16 A2984 RMK FU7 SLP106 DENSITY ALT 800FT
20:22:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: shmisdom: not found
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20:52:43 <Taneb> How do people remember to eat
20:53:06 <Thisbe> Usually their stomach notifies them.
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20:53:42 <Taneb> Thisbe, by that point I normally struggle to prepare food
20:54:31 <Thisbe> Jeez, that's not good. Are you taking any medication?
20:55:06 <Thisbe> I was taking some weird prescriptions at some point and it stopped my apetite, that's why I was asking.
20:55:22 <Thisbe> Maybe set an alarm to remind yourself to eat three times a day at minimum?
20:55:39 <HackEgo> ngram model/An ngram model is just a Markov model with a sliding window state
20:55:49 <Taneb> Thisbe, that might work
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21:27:52 <fizzie> shachaf: I heard, but didn't manage to actually fix it. And I'm not all that "back".
21:28:15 <shachaf> fizzie: It should be easy to fix, if I remember the issue correctly.
21:29:00 <fizzie> shachaf: I didn't see any obvious canary.orig directories in the repository, which is something that someone said to me about it.
21:29:07 <fizzie> Anyway, I will try to have a look at time T.
21:29:09 <shachaf> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src/tip/multibot_cmds/lib/revert has find "$HACKENV" -name '*.orig' -exec rm -f '{}' \;
21:29:20 <shachaf> Which searches .hg, which is where the canary.orig directory is hiding.
21:29:30 <shachaf> The right thing to do is probably to exclude .hg
21:29:43 <fizzie> Ah. That sounds plausible.
21:30:17 <fizzie> What is the find for, though? Clearing up some visible .orig files left by the hg revert in elsewhere than .hg?
21:30:42 <fizzie> (I saw an canary.orig in .hg, but it seemed to belong there.)
21:30:43 <shachaf> `` ls -ld .hg/store/data/canary.orig
21:30:44 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 9 01:43 .hg/store/data/canary.orig
21:30:59 <shachaf> Yes, I assume that's what it's for.
21:31:11 <shachaf> Of course, if we had some actual .orig files, it would mess them up.
21:31:42 <shachaf> But anyway we can't get rid of canary.orig in .hg/. It's part of history.
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21:52:24 <lambdabot> CYUL 082100Z 20011KT 15SM FEW240 23/14 A3001 RMK CI2 SLP161 DENSITY ALT 900FT
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21:52:49 <boily> I should write a strongly worded letter to Environnement Canada. they LIE!
21:53:13 <hppaviion1> I've been writing that zucchini semiderivative
21:53:18 <boily> I don't. I'm sweating like a sweaty fungot.
21:53:19 <fungot> boily: x documentation really is horrid internally, so the interpreter can do that, assuming the context determines that the fnord
21:55:35 <boily> sorry. not at my peak mental capacity until I cool down quite a bit.
21:55:55 <hppaviion1> I just realized I spelled my name wrong XD
21:55:56 <boily> have you put it on the intertubes yet?
21:56:15 <hppaviion1> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tdY8oin0nVwhbrKWGFBm3tNvh_iGxElzdMKGG8GZKn4/edit?usp=sharing
21:56:23 <boily> there's no wrong name here in this fine chännel. only six-letter names are wrong.
21:58:00 <boily> I'm not anonymous, and I'm not a kraken last time I checked.
21:59:59 <hppaviion1> If so, I'm seeing you as anonymous kraken
22:01:25 <boily> ah, so I'm an anonymous kraken after all. who would've guessed.
22:01:30 <boily> yes, the doc is being seen by me.
22:02:25 <hppaviion1> Don't try to tell me anything for about 15 seconds
22:02:28 -!- hppaviion1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:02:43 <boily> @tell hppaviion1 hello! I'm telling you things!
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22:03:15 <boily> you should throw the whole thing on esolangs, add in a hello world and a cat, and call it a day.
22:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> But I think this could be useful in cognitive science or something
22:06:58 <hppavilion[1]> I like to make Esolangs that might actually be useful to someone, somewhere, someday
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22:19:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43435&oldid=41110 * Hppavilion1 * (+87) Fixed "infinitely many." There are only 2.3736676e+48 assuming unicode
22:19:47 <boily> I say, 5 is a close enough approximation to infinity.
22:21:44 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], bear in mind that there is no limit on the length on the strings
22:21:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43436&oldid=43435 * Hppavilion1 * (+3) 2.3736676e+48-3, as two were listed and brainfuck itself doesn't count.
22:23:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43437&oldid=43436 * Hppavilion1 * (+118) Infinity possiblility
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22:50:10 <oerjan> shachaf: i am predicting a good opportunity for belkar to die, probably heroically
22:50:40 <boily> hellørjan. you predict ootsdeaths?
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22:51:11 <oerjan> well his death has already been predicted by the oracle, i'm just saying now would be an appropriate time
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22:52:32 <oerjan> with some luck he might even avoid going to hell
22:52:59 <oerjan> although, where would he fit in otherwise...
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22:55:12 <oerjan> badly working cloak: how to get banned 3 times as fast for connection problems
22:56:21 <oerjan> i'm not saying he's over the limit yet. although i have not looked at the end of the logs.
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23:28:59 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> Thisbe, by that point I normally struggle to prepare food <-- hm a hunch: take a small snack before you start preparing.
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23:35:49 <boily> tonight is a sad night. I'm out of regular paprika.
23:36:46 <oerjan> ask b_jonas to send some
23:38:57 <boily> b_jonas: b_jhellonas! I could do with some csemege and édesmenes, please.
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23:48:48 <oerjan> wait paprika in english is a powder?
23:51:52 <shachaf> "Paprika ( Capsicum annuum ) is ein big grown-up, mild variation of chili modify a pair that are used as vegetables and garnishes in cooking."
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23:53:07 <shachaf> bell peppers are the scow of vegetables
23:53:22 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
23:53:37 <shachaf> that was d. not swatworthy
23:53:54 <shachaf> bell peppers are the worst vegetables ever invented
23:53:58 <shachaf> they make me want to vomit
23:54:09 <shachaf> terrible flavor, terrible texture
23:54:13 <oerjan> you probably have a family curse
23:54:21 <shachaf> my family tends to like them
23:55:04 <oerjan> i see, you must have the rare PPR-SCOW mutation
23:55:42 <shachaf> more like peppers have the PPR-SCOW mutation
23:55:51 <boily> I remember shachaf deeply despising bell peppers.
23:56:12 <oerjan> they do have a recessive mutation, said wikipedia.
23:56:12 <boily> oerjan: paprika in English and French refer to the powder thing.
23:56:50 <oerjan> shachaf: logically then you should prefer chewing raw jalapeños hth
23:57:04 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't mind the capsaicin so much
23:57:05 <boily> oerjan: also, en:pepper can mean fr:poivre, fr:poivron and fr:piment.
23:57:11 <shachaf> but i don't like any pepper flavor
23:57:21 <boily> I'm growing jalapeños on my balcony. can't wait to try them!
23:57:29 <oerjan> boily: argh no idea what those mean
23:57:37 <shachaf> i'm growing old on my balcony :'(
23:57:56 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
23:58:13 <oerjan> `learn_append He hates bell peppers with a passion.
23:58:15 <HackEgo> Can't open wisdom/he: No such file or directory. \ Learned 'he': hates bell peppers with a passion.
23:58:16 <shachaf> that reminds me that i don't like celery either
23:58:16 <boily> oerjan: fr:poivre is the black powder commonly paired with salt, in shakers on a table. fr:poivron is strictly bell pepper.
23:58:26 <oerjan> `learn_append shachaf He hates bell peppers with a passion.
23:58:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'shachaf': shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
23:58:32 <HackEgo> hates bell peppers with a passion.
23:58:50 <boily> oerjan: fr:piment is anything hot, but people oftentimes call poivrons «piments» (which is an annoying misnomer)
23:58:53 <HackEgo> funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf.
23:59:01 <oren> ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
23:59:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````: not found
23:59:08 <oren> Oh no it's raining
23:59:15 <lambdabot> CYYZ 082300Z 16006KT 15SM OVC250 19/10 A3006 RMK CI8 SLP178 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
23:59:36 <oerjan> `` rot13 < wisdom/shachaf >wisdom/funpun
23:59:42 <oren> It's supposed to rain this evening... dunno
23:59:42 <HackEgo> funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf. Ur ungrf oryy crccref jvgu n cnffvba.
23:59:47 <boily> |f`-`|f: why were we ringed twh?
00:00:07 <shachaf> oerjan: Any reason the file isn't wisdom/funpuns?
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00:05:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
00:05:25 <HackEgo> justice/Justice is just behavior or treatment.
00:05:32 <HackEgo> finland/Finland is a European country. There are two people in Finland, and at least nine of them are in this channel. Corun drives the bus.
00:05:42 <HackEgo> unlambda/``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
00:06:23 <oren> Unlambda cest trivial?
00:06:33 <HackEgo> hppavilion1/higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
00:06:37 <boily> oren: you should know that, according to current internet trends, Finland's existence is even more questionable than Canada's.
00:07:22 -!- MDude has joined.
00:07:51 <oerjan> i can confirm that i've never been in finland hth
00:09:08 <oerjan> from experience, this was mainly due to a sudden interruption in the road whenever we reached Umeå.
00:09:23 <bb010g> What does fnordbot do?
00:09:24 <fnordbot> bb010g: will." this is all sens-o-tape." mr prosser, " hadn't even begun to speculate," he continued, " you just let the machines began to think that the chances of getting picked. he was a hell of a lot. " so," said ford, " he was a hell of a lot. " so," said ford, " the vogons run the ship, the dentrassis.," he said to a small lump of green and blue. " so," said ford, " you reckon, what's the problem? " the universe to it, a
00:09:37 <oren> My dad says he's been there, ut that was like 30 years ago, so it might not exist anymore
00:10:06 <oren> bb010g: it makes random text that looks like a book
00:10:32 <bb010g> oren: Guessing the source is the Guide
00:10:45 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
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00:11:08 <boily> bb010g: fnordbot is purely us. fungot has different styles.
00:11:09 <fungot> boily: doesn't say which prolog embedding of scheme in linux kernel to run on pdas and on oskit
00:11:09 <fnordbot> boily:. you want to try a guess at all, ford?" " well you see," ford hissed at him, " two to the power of two hundred and thirty-nine thousand lightly on, " you're not here for the sheer that its top, bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a dust cloud? all his heirs are now long dead, and this is frankie, " a simple one!" " you just let the machines began to sink downward and to everyone else out there, the secret." " the
00:11:57 <bb010g> boily: Did someone in here quote the whole first book?
00:12:21 <bb010g> Or was that just source, and it needs to learn more?
00:12:24 <boily> bb010g: eh... probably so. lots of things happen here.
00:13:00 <fungot> oren: what is that about? http://mjt.nysv.org/ humor/ fnord
00:13:27 <oerjan> bb010g: i think int-e just put h2g2 into fnordbot because he had that file available, and called it irc because fungot's source loads that by default
00:13:27 <fungot> oerjan: anyone want one of these".)
00:13:27 <fnordbot> oerjan: really, cosmically speaking, so stop whatever you're doing?" he just have to be," said vroomfondel in an awed whisper, " think our brains must a man walk down? he grinned a stupid hopeful. walk to the bridge at that, i can tell. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched," ford hissed at him, " two to the power of two hundred and thirty-nine thousand lightly on to a direct male-line descendant of genghis khan,
00:14:23 <oerjan> it was just an emergency measure during heavy fungot withdrawal.
00:14:24 <fungot> oerjan: you could use some dynamic programming to avoid recomputing some fnord, but outputted fnord directly so one could use some of the statements fnord to 4
00:15:25 <oerjan> basically, because the style files aren't included in fungot's github repository
00:15:25 <fungot> oerjan: write a ticket! imagine!)" at http://www.common-lisp.net/ paste/ display/ fnord
00:15:51 <oerjan> fungot: i am not sure fizzie _wants_ to add them there, there are probably copyright issues.
00:17:07 <oren> hardstatus string "%{b rC}時 %M %d %D %0c 時 窓 %w 窓"
00:17:09 <oerjan> (question: how much of the source corpus would you be able to reconstruct from the n-gram files...)
00:19:35 <oren> I don't think much, maybe a few sentences that are guaranteed to occur.
00:20:29 <oren> And any phrase conatining a word that only occurred once could be reconstructed
00:21:54 <oerjan> but note that iirc it contains frequency data, not just what words _can_ follow each other
00:22:32 <oerjan> so you might be able to do something by analyzing the exact numbers
00:23:28 <oerjan> of course fungot has a well-known bug with actually using that frequency data
00:23:54 <oerjan> which probably explains how it can get into loops but not out of them
00:25:04 <fungot> oren: i'm afraid you're beyond help. lates ebuild for mzscheme in gentoo was for 205
00:25:12 <fungot> oren: as in, the debugger presents the user with having to open it up to the job! argh. http://panic.joroinen.fi/pk/ breakpoint03/ img_0519.jpg say
00:25:18 <fungot> boily: the reason that i may write in scheme48 also if the person would have heard of it before i can get them as fortunes on your computer. click here to download plugin".
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00:25:49 <fungot> oren: there's at least one scheme interpreter efficiently implemented in the traditional lambda-calculus. seriously, i think.
00:27:24 <oren> It's crazy, but apparently they got me a macbook pro, just to have me use it as a terminal to the servers where I do the actual work
00:28:18 <oren> Is that common? what sort of computers does google give their coder?
00:28:39 <boily> customize it like there's no tomorrow!
00:29:12 <boily> go crazy with fonts, experimental font patches, colorschemes, keyboard shortcuts, screen status lines, touhou wallpapers...
00:29:56 <oren> I already did that. I have all that stuff stored in a tarball on a thumbdrive
00:31:30 <oren> but I mean, I could do this work with a dell shitbox
00:31:40 <oren> so why the macbook
00:31:50 <quintopia> have you figured out when you can borderlands yet
00:36:00 <boily> either one of them, but I may be unavailable around lunchtime for one of them.
00:36:21 <boily> which do you prefer?
00:38:01 <boily> (I'll be sure to have my beard trimmed and my laundry done by then.)
00:42:47 <boily> I don't want it to get caught in the microphone thingy. I'm already having enough trouble with my bike helmet strap.
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01:08:41 <izabera> http://calmerthanyouare.org/2015/01/07/optimizing-brainfuck.html what does long.b do?
01:09:44 <izabera> https://github.com/rdebath/Brainfuck/blob/master/testing/Long.b does this actually do something?
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01:10:52 <boily> izbellora. it probably circonvolutely computes a single value, then prints it.
01:16:05 <Sgeo_> And here the only optimizations I have thought of are removing >< <> +- -+ ][blah blah blah]
01:16:15 <Sgeo_> And I guess counting
01:17:14 <boily> izabera: sorry, missed the a between the z and b.
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01:19:00 <Sgeo_> I guess mine are preproccessing operations that emit brainfuck, and those are during-processing
01:46:22 <FreeFull> Write a language that compiles to itself
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02:00:17 <oerjan> just implement cat in it hth
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02:15:05 <oren> well you could compile to machine code, then decompile?
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02:18:38 <quintopia> i just won the most epic game of one night ultimate werewolf ever. WHAT A RUSH.
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03:17:25 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
03:17:35 <tswett> fnordbot: shush, I'm talking to fungot.
03:17:35 <fungot> tswett: quota: 3 elements: handed 2
03:17:35 <fnordbot> tswett: did you think of that, earthman," he said at last, " i don't know," said the vogon guard. " er, that was easy, i got a lift a finger to save you a lot. " so," said ford, " he was a hell of a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's wha
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03:17:55 <tswett> fungot: what sort of element do you need?
03:17:55 <fungot> tswett: if the decision that is not part of any of the proposal is insane, if the forum in which it is specifically
03:18:32 <tswett> fungot: well, in my opinion I'd say that the decision really isn't very insane at all.
03:18:32 <fungot> tswett: the basis of scoring, otherwise the power is set to
03:19:34 <tswett> fungot: what's your score right now?
03:19:34 <fungot> tswett: the registrar may declare, without objection, flip the publicity of a rule resulting from the
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04:55:29 <Sgeo_> So, file from 2006, known to me to be malicious. As of tonight, only 44 out of 54 scanners on VirusTotal detect it
04:57:33 <myname> maybe they cleaned up their database :D
04:58:22 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0040 COMMERCIAL AT] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+0074 LATIN SMALL LETTER T] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0020 SPACE]
05:00:31 <shachaf> oerjan: fool me twice... you can't get fooled again
05:00:58 * oerjan thwacks shachaf with a bush ===%%%
05:01:37 <oerjan> the problem is i cannot detect it from putty
05:02:20 <shachaf> I wasn't trying to fool you, just to be polite and not trigger lambdabot.
05:03:21 <oerjan> that's what they all say
05:22:43 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
05:24:38 <Sgeo_> Fun fact: Windows XP Activation Wizard requires IE6 (or 7?), it will not work with IE8
05:25:05 <Sgeo_> http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/t/276368/possibly-self-inflicted-boot-problem/
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06:12:57 <b_jonas> Some crazy esoteric ideas are haunting me again. I'll have to think more about them.
06:13:42 <oerjan> are they non-euclidean?
06:14:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes. non-metric in fact.
06:16:07 <b_jonas> and that's just the problem I've identified. there's probably more, because I couldn't figure out a consistent system yet.
06:16:25 <b_jonas> it's definitely impossible to get a consistent system, the important question is how impossible it is.
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06:16:50 <izabera> can i safely remove [] from a brainfuck program? it's either a nop or an endless loop
06:17:27 <oerjan> izabera: not if you don't want what's after it to run?
06:17:31 <b_jonas> still, it has to be tried because I think there's a lot I can learn from seeing how it fails
06:17:43 <zzo38> izabera: Depend on whether or not it is consider OK to remove endless loops that perform no I/O; that depends what you are trying to do, though
06:18:18 <zzo38> They did mention on esolang wiki list of ideas, the idea of the non-Euclidean esolang, so yes you could make ones with even more strange geometry too
06:19:03 <izabera> my main concern is that i'm producing bash code and this is invalid because the body is empty: while condition; do done
06:19:37 <oerjan> `` while true; do ; done
06:19:37 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `;' \ bash: -c: line 0: `while true; do ; done'
06:19:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, that's a good one too, but in this case the geometry isn't the starting point or goal, it's just a consequence I don't see how to avoid
06:19:49 <oerjan> `` while true; do echo -n; done
06:19:59 <zzo38> izabera: Just add something inside the loop then
06:20:16 <oerjan> `` while true; do true; done
06:20:40 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `done' \ bash: -c: line 0: `while true; do done'
06:20:58 <b_jonas> wow, it's finished executing that infinite loop quite fast
06:21:19 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think it may be my second one you saw
06:23:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: The geometry is consequence of what, and why do you necessarily have to avoid?
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06:35:33 <Jafet> `cc main(i) { for(i = 0; i > 0; ++i); }
06:35:55 <Jafet> `cc main() { long i; for(i = 0; i > 0; ++i); }
06:36:12 <Jafet> `cc main(i) { for(i = 1; i > 0; ++i); } // uhh
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06:53:09 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:8: error: expected declaration specifiers or ‘...’ before string constant \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
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06:53:32 <oerjan> `cc main() { printf("test"); }
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07:24:27 <lambdabot> CYVR 090700Z 10010KT 10SM BKN120 18/14 A2972 RMK FU4AS1 SLP065 DENSITY ALT 500FT
07:27:17 <lambdabot> LSZH 090720Z 26011KT 9999 FEW040 BKN075 18/09 Q1021 NOSIG
07:34:35 <mroman_> film projectors are really interesting machines
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09:29:16 <izabera> $ TIMES= ./bfjit examples/factor.b <<< 259852698
09:29:17 <izabera> compilation time: real: 0m0.172s, user: 0m0.170s, sys: 0m0.007s
09:29:19 <izabera> 259852698: 2 3 3 3 3 7 43 73 73
09:29:21 <izabera> execution time: real: 0m17.374s, user: 0m17.390s, sys: 0m0.000s
09:29:24 <izabera> fastest bf interpreter in da wrold
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10:22:29 <mroman_> still waiting for netflix to properly support paypal ...
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11:06:48 <slereah> has this idea been done as an esolang : http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/~ATH
11:07:15 <Taneb> slereah, it's hard to figure out actual semantics for the weirder examples
11:07:59 <slereah> Basically it executes programs at the end of the lifespan of some objects
11:08:36 <slereah> I guess if I want to implement it, I'll have to simulate those universes
11:08:42 <Taneb> I was thinking specifically of Sollux's red and blue programs
11:09:00 <boily> slereahello. there's a reference to it on the esowiki, but it is a “fictional esoteric programming language”.
11:09:40 <slereah> I guess the real challenge would be to write down the universe to import
11:09:46 <slereah> Basically write down a SBURB session
11:10:20 <slereah> also there isn't much that you can do in the examples
11:10:28 <slereah> Mostly just summon Lord English
11:11:27 <slereah> Not sure my CPU can do that
11:13:07 <boily> the only thing I know about Lord English is that it can be killed.
11:13:19 <slereah> Well by his very name, yes
11:16:30 <slereah> I guess what I could do is like
11:16:41 <slereah> Unroll events in each universes
11:16:46 <slereah> Including time travel events
11:16:52 <slereah> And then the compiler checks the consistency
11:17:41 <slereah> It is a bit cheating since they are supposed to be real universes, but o well
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12:16:18 <Taneb> Is it valid for a brainfuck optimiser to remove things like "[]"?
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12:17:10 <slereah> Well it would not render +[] very well
12:17:28 <Taneb> Transforming the program from one that might not halt due to this, to one that does but produces the same result when it does
12:17:59 <slereah> It would halt instead of not halt!
12:18:13 <slereah> Optimised compilers do fuck up weird cases, though, so I guess it's not too bad
12:18:42 <slereah> That will teach the programmer to write like a weirdo
12:19:05 <Jafet> So, what's the state of the art in brainfuck optimisation these days?
12:19:32 <slereah> Writing in a real language, probably
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12:26:36 <Jafet> I should use that line on haskell programmers
12:27:15 <slereah> Did the Brainfuck OS ever go anywhere
12:28:24 <Taneb> slereah, I hadn't heard of it?
12:28:44 <slereah> Then I guess it did not :p
12:34:19 <mroman_> an OS in brainfuck is plain stupid
12:34:29 <mroman_> mostly because you have no atomic copy operation
12:35:21 <slereah> Well anything in BF is plain stupid
12:35:25 <mroman_> and might need some extra instructions anyway
12:35:31 <mroman_> to load descriptor tables and things like that
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12:35:58 <mroman_> well... writing a ROT13 program in BF is perfectly not stupid ;)
12:36:17 <mroman_> it wouldn't be my first language of choice, but it's not a stupid idea to write a ROT13 program in BF.
12:37:19 <b_jonas> mroman_: or just some magical cells at the part of the tape to the left from the starting cells. but yes, writing anything in BF is a stupid idea.
12:39:05 <mroman_> It's a horribly inefficient language :D
12:41:37 <mroman_> [] is either a NOP or an infinite loop
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12:43:39 <b_jonas> duh. if you don't care about the IO, then anything is either a NOP or an infinite loop. that's just how ordinary computation works.
12:45:02 <mroman_> but [] isn't doing any I/O
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13:22:15 <Jafet> It still sucks for ROT13 because any such program leaves itself unchanged (unlike http://www.ioccc.org/1989/westley.c)
13:29:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polynomial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43438&oldid=35076 * LegionMammal978 * (+1857) /* Interpreter */ new section
13:30:11 <mroman_> ROT13 an ascii text in a way that leaks original text
13:30:41 <mroman_> other bits can be used to leak information .
13:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polynomial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43439&oldid=43438 * LegionMammal978 * (+103)
13:31:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polynomial]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43440&oldid=43439 * LegionMammal978 * (-4)
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13:57:10 <slereah> Someone actually did make a ~ATH
13:57:11 <slereah> http://learn-tilde-ath.tumblr.com/
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14:15:43 <tswett> BF is a good language for operating system development because it can execute without making any system calls.
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14:20:25 <Jafet> It also supports low-level memory access and never needs a runtime
14:21:47 <slereah> going to a RAM place takes forever though :p
14:22:06 <slereah> "This memory is at 0xFFFFFFFF"
14:23:08 <Jafet> Actually, it has no address space limitations
14:25:53 <slereah> Yeah, but if you do it with >
14:27:56 <lifthrasiir> it makes me wonder if something like succinct BF is possible---only logarithmic overhead is imposed.
14:31:32 <tromp_> we alrd have a most succint language (up to constant terms)
14:32:45 <Jafet> In fact, we may have more than one such language
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18:30:32 <izabera> how does one optimize something like this? [->+>+>+<<<]
18:31:56 <gamemanj> As in when writing a compiler, or the BF?
18:32:23 <gamemanj> Try to work out if it can be translated into a set of adds/subtractions without the loop.
18:33:14 <izabera> i understand that, it becomes tape[i+1] = tape[i+2] = tape[i+3] = tape[i]; tape[i] = 0
18:33:35 <izabera> i just don't know how to get there from the bf code...
18:34:33 <gamemanj> It's an addition, not an =. I have some code somewhere for translating things like that to a structure...
18:35:09 <izabera> my target language doesn't have structures ^^'
18:35:24 <gamemanj> Not your target language, the compiler's language
18:35:38 <izabera> that's my target language as well <.<
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18:38:12 <izabera> it's not quite as slow as it used to be https://github.com/izabera/bf/blob/master/bf
18:38:16 <gamemanj> Could be simulated with a directory full of files, I guess. It's not a complex structure, just a simple map from keys(relative tape indices) to values(how much to multiply the input value by). So [->+<] becomes 0=-1,1=1(0 is whatever the MP is at the start of the loop)
18:40:23 <gamemanj> The input value is whatever tape[MP] was before the loop started.
18:42:46 <izabera> it can rot13 the whole gpl2 in 35s
18:44:00 <gamemanj> As for how to get these values, interpret the code and record what it does. If the MP is different by the end of the loop, or a sub-loop gets involved, don't try optimizing that particular loop(but do optimize the sub-loops if that's possible). (There's probably some way subloops could be handled...)
18:44:50 <gamemanj> (...but it probably wouldn't be as simple.)
18:58:17 <gamemanj> Just read through my code. Apparently, the offset to the loop counter has to be -1. (this wouldn't be optimized: [-->+<]) This is because it can't be translated directly to additions/subtractions.(Plus it simplifies the compiler code.)
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19:38:59 <izabera> and where is your code? D:
19:43:41 <tswett> I think I found a full-width British pound sign.
19:44:00 <HackEgo> [U+FFE1 FULLWIDTH POUND SIGN]
19:44:11 <tswett> I didn't know they made those.
19:51:14 <HackEgo> plugh/A hollow voice says "Plugh"
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21:54:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43441&oldid=43195 * 96.59.227.171 * (+1)
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22:15:35 <oerjan> @tell slereah <slereah> has this idea been done as an esolang : http://mspaintadventures.wikia.com/wiki/~ATH <-- our wiki has a page but it's not very concrete but not an actual specification.
22:15:52 <oerjan> ...stupid irssi line editing
22:16:40 <oerjan> @tell slereah * oerjan balmes stupid irssi line editing for the previous message not making grammar sense
22:17:00 <oerjan> @tell slereah * oerjan also blames muphry's law [sic]
22:25:04 <Slereah__> http://learn-tilde-ath.tumblr.com/
22:25:55 <HackEgo> @/@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour.
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22:29:03 <izabera> do you think i'm allowed to remove everything after the last . or , (or last loop that contains either . or ,) in brainfuck?
22:30:01 <Slereah__> If all your care about is what ends up on the screen, then sure
22:30:25 <Slereah__> It depends if it could loop, I guess?
22:30:41 <izabera> i'm already removing loops that can't loop
22:31:42 <izabera> can this exit? code code code .[-]+[++]
22:33:05 <gamemanj> [-]+[++] would exit in a wrapping environment.
22:34:36 <gamemanj> Correction: wrapping environment with an even maximum number
22:34:51 <izabera> it'll have no effect whatsoever so i don't see the point in keeping that part
22:35:25 <Slereah__> Well be careful not to start removing important parts
22:36:56 <gamemanj> Not really much you can save by removing dead code
22:37:01 <gamemanj> because people generally don't leave dead code
22:38:00 <izabera> that makes sense but you do reduce +-+--+-+ to - , don't you?
22:38:44 <izabera> let's pretend that i wrote -+-+-+-+-
22:40:04 <gamemanj> Why reduce it? It should never exist. Maybe show a warning.
22:40:43 <gamemanj> (Note that this does *NOT* count when handling self-modifying variants. However, in that case, optimizers can't help you.)
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22:43:57 <Slereah__> The biggest thing you have to do, really, is just to convert BF into proper assembly
22:55:43 <Sgeo_> Doesn't that big game in BF have a lot of dead code?
22:57:34 <Sgeo_> Of which 571 are ][-]
22:58:13 <Sgeo_> I don't know how much of an optimization removing those are, but it's not none
22:58:30 <Sgeo_> I didn't see >< <> +- -+
22:58:34 <Sgeo_> I was expecting to see some
22:59:22 <Sgeo_> There's no realistic chance that Microsoft offers XP ISOs, is there?
23:00:00 <oerjan> lost kingdom is generated, so it makes sense it has code a human wouldn't make.
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23:01:24 <HackEgo> for further details./See `? for further details for futher details.
23:03:32 <HackEgo> certainly/We don't know what certainly is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
23:03:55 <shachaf> Are we sure certainly isn't a functor?
23:04:00 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/certainly
23:04:02 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo Jafet
23:04:08 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/certainly | grep summary:
23:04:09 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <Jafet> cp wisdom/certain{t,l}y && sed -i \'s/ty/ly/\' wisdom/certainly
23:04:17 <Sgeo_> I don't remember touching certainly
23:04:25 <Sgeo_> I certainly don't remember, anyway
23:04:33 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:04:35 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/certainly | grep Sgeo
23:04:36 <HackEgo> summary: <Sgeo> revert 2243
23:04:54 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/certainty
23:04:58 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott Sgeo boily boily
23:05:06 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/certainty | grep summary:
23:05:07 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <elliott> revert 2416 \ summary: <boily> echo -n "We don\'t know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn\'t a functor." >wisdom/certainty \ summary: <boily> echo -n "We don\'t know what certainty is for sur
23:05:27 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
23:05:43 -!- tromp has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
23:06:45 <FreeFull> That command made me a culprit for most wisdoms I'm sure
23:06:54 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/rev/be90d778a82d?revcount=80
23:07:06 <Sgeo_> I don't understand what I'm looking at
23:07:13 <Sgeo_> WHat was this command?
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23:07:58 <Sgeo_> I mean, what was 2243?
23:09:40 <Sgeo_> What was the command for that revision?
23:10:41 <oerjan> Sgeo_: hm looking at that thing, i suspect your 2243 was a typo
23:10:55 <oerjan> and you reverted to a far older revision than intended
23:11:22 <oerjan> e.g. `olist was just a plain echo command
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23:13:24 <HackEgo> herbalist/A herbalist is a list of herbas.
23:14:05 <oren> why does GCC want me to put parentheses around && inside ||?
23:14:53 <oren> of all the C precedence rules, if any are correct that one is.
23:17:23 <oerjan> Sgeo_: looks like elliott reverted it again afterwards http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/b453e72e25f5/bin/olist
23:17:28 <oren> what's next, warning: suggest parentheses around `*' within `+'???
23:18:07 <Sgeo_> http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710
23:20:51 <oren> Warning: suggest parentheses around '+' within '=='
23:23:46 <Sgeo_> I seem to be addicted
23:23:54 <HackEgo> mdude/MDude is just a dude, with an M's courage.
23:47:42 <oren> Apparently 羅 is the kanji abbreviation for the Latin language.
23:50:01 <oren> Also, why does every article on Japanese Wikipedia contain the translation into English and sometimes Latin for the language?
23:50:21 <oren> s/language/topic/
23:54:19 <oren> I don't see why it's necessary for them to put (英：Population) on the article for 人口. The equivalent spanish and russian articles don't have it
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00:11:41 <boily> holy fungot in the sky, please have mercy on my taste buds.
00:11:41 <fungot> boily: default of zero points. a contestmaster may award a number to those cast by the fee shall be removed, then
00:12:05 <boily> fungot: many zeroes. chile extract. ow.
00:12:05 <fungot> boily: a speaker or speaker-elect shall become frozen. the
00:17:46 <oerjan> boily: i think e suggests you should try to be Agora Speaker to cool down hth
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00:25:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dice: not found
00:26:08 <Sgeo_> `run echo "http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710" > dice
00:26:13 <Sgeo_> `run echo "http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710" > bin/dice
00:26:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/dice: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/dice: cannot execute: Permission denied
00:26:25 <Sgeo_> `run chmod a+x bin/dice
00:26:28 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/dice: line 1: http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710: No such file or directory
00:26:48 <HackEgo> unicode/Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
00:26:54 <Sgeo_> `run echo "echo 'http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710'" > dice
00:27:01 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/dice: line 1: http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710: No such file or directory
00:27:14 <Sgeo_> `run echo "echo 'http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710'" > bin/dice
00:27:18 <HackEgo> http://www.clickhole.com/video/dont-have-dice-handy-dice-simulator-gives-you-numb-2710
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00:34:28 <oerjan> also you cannot depose the speaker by deputisation, for at least two different reasons: (1) it's not an elected office (2) the speaker has no actual duties you could deputise for
00:36:03 <boily> I'll do as if I hadn't seen anything, and gently continue `wisdoming.
00:36:07 <HackEgo> heck/Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
00:37:41 <HackEgo> mauris/maur is the correct spelling
00:37:50 <HackEgo> a/A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
00:44:13 <Sgeo_> http://www.onionstudios.com/embed?id=2990&replay_allow=false&replay_text=Roll%20Again dice videos go from [2990,3012] excluding 3011
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03:10:02 <shachaf> zzo38: are you related to https://github.com/dev-zzo twh
03:10:16 <zzo38> I do not have accoutn on GitHub
03:11:07 <nys> another member of the zzo family
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03:39:29 <oerjan> eep another tls error from a different site, i'm starting to think it's my browser that's got a bug
03:40:20 <oerjan> a number of things got more flakey recently.
03:43:44 <oerjan> mail.haskell.org this time
03:43:59 <oerjan> the previous ones were all reddit, so i thought they were the culprit
03:50:21 <FreeFull> Let's confirm we are getting the same certificate
03:50:28 <FreeFull> What web browser are you using?
03:51:48 <zzo38> I connected to http://mail.haskell.org/ so we shouldn't need SSL with it?
03:52:09 <FreeFull> It automatically redirects to SSL
03:52:23 <FreeFull> Or wait, that might be the HTTPS Everywhere addon
03:53:09 <FreeFull> I think HTTP 2 always does encryption too
03:53:26 <zzo38> Then tell it which ones to enable/disable individually maybe, or disable HTTP 2 if that is the problem
03:57:13 <FreeFull> Ok, it is the website that automatically redirects to https
03:58:01 <zzo38> For me it doesn't?
03:59:02 <FreeFull> Odd, it does for me with https everywhere disabled. Maybe Firefox remembers it works over https?
03:59:27 <FreeFull> Ok, I can go to it over http with xlinks
03:59:50 <zzo38> Possibly with HSTS or with cookies; if HSTS, you need to replace your browser.
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04:07:18 <oerjan> FreeFull: oh also, the error is intermittent, reloading fixes it.
04:08:04 <zzo38> I have a different problem; when HTTPS fails on some server, it won't work again for that server until the browser is restarted (but this doesn't automatically cause problems on other servers too).
04:55:28 <Sgeo_> oerjan, IE10 works at least once
04:56:07 <Sgeo_> Oh this is actually IE11
04:56:46 <oerjan> i am mostly assuming they broke something with one of the last updates - because tabs started behaving a bit weird too
04:57:23 <Sgeo_> > 63072000 / 60 / 60
04:57:28 <Sgeo_> > 63072000 / 60 / 60 / 24
04:57:38 <Sgeo_> > 63072000 / 60 / 60 / 24 / 365
04:57:49 <Sgeo_> I didn't know HSTS could go for two years
05:09:42 <zzo38> HSTS goes against any good kind of software design
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06:06:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43442&oldid=43407 * Rdococ * (+121) /* Peano */
06:22:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43443&oldid=43426 * Phase * (+71) add categories
06:27:21 <Jafet> Pretty sure a HSTS header can be set for longer than the lifetime of most certificates
06:30:42 <Jafet> twitter.com: max-age=631138519
06:31:03 <Jafet> Certificate expires: Sun 22 Jan 2017
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06:49:42 <FreeFull> And the certificate expiry overrides it?
06:50:22 <Jafet> I don't know how firefox thinks about that.
06:50:30 <Jafet> Maybe fungot knows.
06:50:30 <fungot> Jafet: private orders are executed by a type of change, unambiguously describing the action,
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07:47:36 <b_jonas> why do they call software "RC2" if it contains stuff they definitely have to fix before the release?
07:47:56 <b_jonas> call it "beta2" or something
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08:08:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumper]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43444 * Phase * (+2752) Create Jumper
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08:15:45 <slereah> Why are you just sending a dot
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08:31:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumper]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43445&oldid=43444 * Phase * (+25) Add headers
08:36:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumper]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43446&oldid=43445 * Phase * (+557) Examples and more syntax
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08:56:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Argh!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43447&oldid=9440 * 80.175.127.178 * (+61) Added external link to Mercurial repository
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10:45:32 <ais523> hey, does anyone here know about primitive recursive busy beavers?
10:45:46 <ais523> my instincts are that the busy beaver problem is decidable in a primitive recursive language
10:45:49 <ais523> I'm not quite sure how to define it, though
10:46:16 <ais523> something like "the largest number that can be output by a program that's no more than X bytes long in «insert primitive recursive language here»"
10:46:44 <ais523> we don't have enough primitive recursive esolangs, really
10:47:17 <ais523> this came up at work, I'm specifically wondering about whether Church arithmetic in typed lambda calculus has the same power as primitive recursive functions
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10:58:51 <b_jonas> ais523: wait... busy beaver functions come up at work?
10:59:02 <b_jonas> but those are totally impractical functions!
10:59:26 <b_jonas> I mean, even the computable variants, if such a thing exists, probably are
10:59:27 <ais523> b_jonas: the specific problem is that we can't get a working type inference algo
10:59:44 <ais523> and the reason seems to be that the algos we've been looking at can only handle exponential blowup in the size of a type
11:00:02 <ais523> but some sufficiently impractical types blow up faster than that
11:00:46 <ais523> this morning I found a constant function f, such that for varying x, the type of f(x) has a size O(2**(2**n)) in the size of the type of x
11:00:53 <b_jonas> but yes, I think busy beaver function for a primitive recursive language is probably computable (though obviously it would blow up very quickly)
11:01:00 <ais523> which instantly gives a counterexample
11:01:06 <ais523> I also think it's computable, and blows up very quickly
11:01:17 <ais523> and suspect that it's related to the ackermann function somehow
11:01:55 <b_jonas> yes, something like that. it could depend on which version of primitive recursive you take
11:02:12 <b_jonas> or are all the definitions for that essentially equivalent?
11:02:28 <ais523> if it matters, I don't know which one it is
11:02:39 <ais523> I don't even know that the primitive recursive functions are what the type system encodes
11:02:45 <ais523> it's just a guess that's looking reasonable at this point
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11:16:58 <mroman_> what's primitive recursion?
11:17:21 <slereah> I think he means -recursive functions without the ?
11:17:36 <slereah> 0, successor operator, projection, and recursion
11:17:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: you know, that crazy thingy logicians invented about a class of algorithms that can be syntactically checked to make sure they terminate
11:17:57 <mroman_> why is the ackermann function not primitive recursive?
11:18:25 <slereah> Look at Ackermann's paper, I guess?
11:18:43 <b_jonas> mroman_: the detail about the ackermann function doesn't matter, the point is that because of Godel and stuff, you can't make a class that can be syntactically checked to terminate but covers all turing-complete stuff
11:18:56 <b_jonas> mroman_: so you have to settle for some intermediate class that covers enough useful things and is closed in some senses
11:19:00 <mroman_> Yeah I got it. Gödel sucked the joy out of the world.
11:19:10 <b_jonas> mroman_: polynomial time would be too small
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11:19:35 <b_jonas> you could choose a larger class that covers Ackermann, but why bother, then there'd be some even faster growing function it doesn't cover
11:20:07 <b_jonas> primitive recursive covers all of PH and much more, including double-exponential and triple-exponential runtime algorithms
11:20:55 <b_jonas> slereah: dunno, that definition never made sense to me. it's like an artifically golfed definition
11:21:17 <Jafet> Isn't PR exactly the functions you can construct from typed church numerals?
11:21:19 <b_jonas> but probably I just haven't spent the time to understand how it really works
11:21:30 <b_jonas> Jafet: that's sort of what ais asked
11:22:42 <mroman_> wp says busy beavers are neither primitive recursive nor μ-recursive
11:39:57 <Jafet> @ask ais523 There is already an esoteric language based on PR. It's called PR.
11:40:17 <b_jonas> Jafet: sure, and BLOOP may count as esoteric by some definitions too
11:44:04 <Jafet> @ask ais523 The implicit computational complexity people would be the most likely to have proven equivalence between church numerals and PR, but I can't find such a result.
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12:32:18 <Taneb> Right, I have eaten at least two meals at least two days in a row
12:32:21 <Taneb> This is a good start
12:41:25 <Taneb> mroman_, getting my eating habits back on track
12:41:34 <Taneb> I am the kind of person who forgets to eat
12:47:43 <ais523> b_jonas: I think you're missing a sentence there
12:48:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, I'm just waiting for lambdabot to tell you some messages or something
12:48:19 <b_jonas> (or told in another channel)
12:48:24 <lambdabot> You have 2 new messages. '/msg lambdabot @messages' to read them.
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13:02:06 <mroman_> oh well. Installed the nightly builds
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13:13:51 <Jafet> `` ls wisdom | grep -i tarski
13:16:11 <Jafet> `` echo wisdom/* | tr ' ' '\n' | grep -i tarski
13:16:22 <HackEgo> "Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
13:18:37 <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
13:19:23 <slereah> I hope u have a good knife
13:19:30 <slereah> To cut things into non-measurable pieces
13:21:28 <b_jonas> Jafet: hehe, that's a good one
13:32:22 <mroman_> src/main.rs:6:2: 6:5 error: binary assignment operation `+=` cannot be applied to types `_` and `&i32` [E0368]
13:32:50 <Taneb> Can you paste the source somewhere?
13:35:24 <mroman_> hm. seems I have to dereference it first with *
13:35:31 <b_jonas> what language is that even?
13:35:47 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/69j7U1Yn <- this works
13:38:11 <mroman_> Taneb: find doesn't work on vectors?
13:41:21 <mroman_> (0..100).find(|x| *x > 42);
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13:43:05 <b_jonas> mroman_: um, that's a Range, not a vector
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13:47:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Polynomial]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43448&oldid=43440 * LegionMammal978 * (-7) fixed code
13:48:46 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/0d5bygmT <- this looks a bit overly complicated
13:49:19 <mroman_> need to dereference twice there apparentely
13:50:15 <mroman_> iterating over Vec<i32> gives you i32
13:50:25 <mroman_> iterating over &Vec<i32> gives you i32
13:50:43 <mroman_> and combine that with find and you'll get &&i32;
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14:03:31 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
14:03:45 <Taneb> What is a fternooner and where can I find one
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14:15:42 <zzo38> I do have idea of how to implement HSTS in a better way though. Instead of doing what it currently does, it would cause the client to assocate any authentication and any cookies that are specified as secure-only with the certificate and cipher in use, as well as stores them in the memory so if the HSTS does not expire yet, it will warn the user if these change, and also store them with bookmarks; but, also permit the user to override any of these op
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14:17:00 <zzo38> The setting for redirecting http:// URLs to https:// URLs (or any URL to any URL) automatically would be defined only by the user though.
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18:56:31 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯/¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
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19:05:50 <int-e> c.c \o/ heresy O.o
19:07:30 <int-e> fnordbot: why are you still here... I expected you do be kicked by now..
19:07:31 <fnordbot> int-e: you on which the galaxy, a device which made this starship, one day, a student at the university of maximegalon, who pursued a brilliant marble-sanded beaches of santraginus v, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it. " yeah," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. he couldn't, and he didn't like the sound of
19:07:46 -!- fnordbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
19:09:00 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
19:09:00 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
19:09:00 <myndzi> |\ c.c /'\ /< | | /| c.c |\ | /^\| >\ c.c /´\
19:09:13 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: not really
19:09:29 <hppavilion[1]> Is fnordbot programmed to quit when you talk to it?
19:09:45 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: no, but it didn't survive ^C on the shell
19:10:43 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: fizzie runs fungot, but fungot had stability problems (also, it moved...). I set up a poor replacement... that's fnordbot.
19:13:06 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: quota: 1 elements: limited immaculate players 3 exploit: if a revolt occurs. there are no votes cast on the behalf of whom
19:13:23 <fungot> hppavilion[1]: except that which a player submits a judgement to all rules governing proposals,
19:13:30 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
19:13:40 <fungot> Selected style: agora (a large selection of Agora rules, both current and historical)
19:14:19 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I expect this isn't going to help you, but the - is a minus.
19:14:42 <hppavilion[1]> I thought it was just a filler because you couldn't do space :P
19:14:50 <hppavilion[1]> Though I guess _ would make more sense for that :P
19:14:52 <izabera> http://arin.ga/82YXp1/raw super dead code elimination \o/
19:15:30 * izabera still has to work on multiplication loops
19:15:50 <hppavilion[1]> So I made a language centered around making Neural Networks
19:15:52 <int-e> hmm, dead code elimination. "my compiler removes code that will never be run"...
19:16:39 <int-e> (there's a loophole in there)
19:17:26 <int-e> removed code will never be run.
19:19:58 <int-e> stock market quotes, weather reports, quotations, notifications...
19:20:03 <int-e> oh and some haskell stuff
19:20:52 <lambdabot> VOO: 190.44 +2.59 (+1.38%) @ 7/10/2015 3:06pm
19:20:58 <int-e> > fix ((0:) : scanl (+) 1)
19:21:00 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a -> a’
19:21:00 <lambdabot> with actual type ‘[[Integer] -> [Integer]]’
19:21:00 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘fix’, namely ‘((0 :) : scanl (+) 1)’
19:21:13 <int-e> > fix ((0:) . scanl (+) 1)
19:21:14 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21,34,55,89,144,233,377,610,987,1597,2584,4181,6765,10946,...
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19:48:08 <HackEgo> ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞/̼͚͇̮͕̘̳̞̤̜̯̪̘̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓
19:49:00 <int-e> `unidecode ̚_̿̊�͎͎/̂̚
19:49:02 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+200B ZERO WIDTH SPACE] [U+031A COMBINING LEFT ANGLE ABOVE] [U+005F LOW LINE] [U+033F COMBINING DOUBLE OVERLINE] [U+030A COMBINING RING ABOVE] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+034E COMBINING UPWARDS ARROW BELOW] [U+034E COMBINING UPWARDS ARROW BELOW] [U+002F SOLIDUS] [U+031A COMBINING LEFT ANGLE ABOVE] [U+0302 COMBINING CIRCUMF
19:49:14 <HackEgo> hexham/Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
19:49:24 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull Taneb elliott oerjan shachaf oerjan
19:50:06 <int-e> `culprits ̚_̿̊�͎͎
19:50:16 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/ ̚_̿̊�͎͎
19:50:29 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/_̿̊�͎͎
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19:51:51 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚�͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞
19:52:23 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/*͠*
19:52:24 <HackEgo> wisdom/̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞
19:52:40 <int-e> `` culprits $(echo wisdom/*͠*)
19:52:41 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull guestbot
19:53:39 <shachaf> Is there an advantage to foo $(echo ...) over foo ...?
19:56:14 <int-e> funny. I just didn't think about what echo does at all while feeding its output as an argument to culprits
19:57:39 <shachaf> I sometimes wish sh didn't have < and >
19:57:49 <shachaf> And instead you used processes with pipes to get the same functionality.
19:58:37 <int-e> well, you can write < in foo > out
19:59:09 <shachaf> The main reason I want it to be that way is so people would stop complaining when you type "cat in | ..."
19:59:19 <int-e> and besides it'd be really inefficient.
19:59:31 <shachaf> Also, tee would just be a flag to write, instead of its own process.
19:59:34 <int-e> it's silly to complain about that really.
19:59:49 <myname> shachaf: they would still complain
19:59:55 <shachaf> It'd be inefficient enough that it wouldn't be a great idea, but probably not terrible for most uses.
20:01:10 <int-e> at some point I ended up doing cat | ... because the ... part tested whether stdin is a terminal.
20:01:29 * int-e forgot the precise circumstances
20:03:05 <int-e> `? hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
20:03:09 <HackEgo> hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
20:05:46 -!- lleu has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
20:06:17 <int-e> why does culprits list so many people for http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/070977d66f58/wisdom/_%CC%86%CC%93%CC%B0_%CC%CC%85%CD%AD%CD%AD%CD%AC%CC%A6%CC%BB%CC%96%CD%8D%CC%9F%CC%96%CD%A1_%CD%A7%CD%92%CC%90%CD%89%CC%AD_%CD%82%CD%8B%CD%92%CD%A7%CD%8B%CC%CC%8B%CC%AF%CD%99%CC%AC%CC%AC%CC%A6%CC%AF_%CC%94%CC%89%CC%85%CD%A8%CC%9D%CC%B4%CD%9E ?
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20:07:19 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/ants
20:07:26 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/ant
20:09:45 <int-e> Oh that was part of the Lilax episode.
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20:20:04 <int-e> `cat wisdom/phantom_*
20:20:05 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/phantom_*: No such file or directory
20:20:08 <int-e> `` cat wisdom/phantom_*
20:20:13 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop. \ Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is. \ Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself. \ It doesn't get any better than this. \ OK you got me there. \ <span accent="British">Your soundcard works perfectly.</span>
20:24:02 <int-e> `` sed -i 's=$= They get eaten by poets in stone dens.' wisdom/lion
20:24:03 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 43: unterminated `s' command
20:24:12 <int-e> `` sed -i 's=$= They get eaten by poets in stone dens.=' wisdom/lion
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20:35:29 <HackEgo> Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens.
20:35:48 <shachaf> int-e: that's what learn_append is for hth
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20:38:07 <int-e> It wouldn't have worked. I'd have needed a le/rn_append
20:46:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
20:47:03 <int-e> shachaf: note the "They"
20:47:42 <shachaf> `learn_append lions blah blah blah
20:47:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'lion': Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens. blah blah blah
20:48:00 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:48:15 <HackEgo> Lions are the catamorphisms of the animal world. They get eaten by poets in stone dens.
20:48:29 <int-e> Ok, thanks... maybe next time.
20:49:15 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ perl -n -e '/:(.*?)!.*JOIN/; $j{$1}++; END {print "$_ $j{$_};" for sort {$j{$b} <=> $j{$a}} keys %j}' $@
20:51:00 <HackEgo> Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
20:51:24 <int-e> oh it sorts people by how frequently they join. which made sense back when hackego had access to channel logs
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20:54:16 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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21:08:49 <HackEgo> key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
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21:09:15 <shachaf> Why doesn't that have quotes around the $()?
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21:12:57 <HackEgo> tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf
21:13:26 <int-e> `culprits bin/learn
21:13:27 <HackEgo> tswett tswett oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf elliott elliott nitia
21:15:33 <HackEgo> tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf
21:16:01 <shachaf> Why is tswett all over these logs?
21:16:06 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed bin/mk | grep tswett
21:16:07 <HackEgo> summary: <tswett> revert \ summary: <tswett> rm bin -r
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21:20:57 <nooga> I went to Austria and saw this town called Vomp
21:21:50 <int-e> Jmm, seen the name; it's near Innsbruck.
21:23:07 <int-e> hah. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vomp
21:23:12 <nooga> this name is so stupid that I keep repeating it in my mind weeks after seeing the town
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22:09:16 <Sgeo_> "As a closing note, it was sickening to see some of the things redditors wrote about Ellen. [1] The reduction in compassion that happens when we’re all behind computer screens is not good for the world. People are still people even if there is Internet between you."
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22:27:15 <b_jonas> I'm still laghing on how the http://www.norwegian.com/ airline has special rules for transporting a double bass as checked baggage.
22:27:30 <b_jonas> Yes, it sort of makes sense, but stil.
22:27:40 <b_jonas> Airline rules are always funny.
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23:54:11 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> my instincts are that the busy beaver problem is decidable in a primitive recursive language <-- s/primitive recursive/terminating/, and almost trivially so
23:58:03 <shachaf> If I give you a program and promise you that it's terminating, what can you decide about it?
23:58:36 <oerjan> anything i can find out by running it until it terminates...
23:59:11 <shachaf> Well, you can't decide e.g. whether it implements the identity function.
00:00:54 <oerjan> plausible, but needs a proof
00:01:15 <shachaf> What if I give you a program and promise you that it implements a computable real?
00:01:15 <oerjan> possibly just some theorem i don't remember
00:01:56 <shachaf> I guess now my question is "what can you decide about the real", rather than "what can you decide about the program".
00:02:02 <shachaf> (And the answer is nothing, of course.)
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00:07:29 <FreeFull> Is the busy shachaf problem decidable?
00:07:56 <oerjan> shachaf is always busy, Q.E.D.
00:08:42 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
00:08:56 <shachaf> apparently i have some free time on weekends
00:10:32 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> I don't even know that the primitive recursive functions are what the type system encodes <-- note that if you have higher-order functions, things that look like primitive/structural recursion can be much more powerful. e.g. we discussed that the goodstein sequence can be computed in System F.
00:11:19 <oerjan> @tell ais523 (and someone i don't remember the nick of implemented it in non-recursive haskell)
00:11:34 <oerjan> quintopia: was it you twh
00:12:11 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a very busy cosplay hth
00:13:22 <shachaf> My life improved when I stopped writing commas after "e.g." and "i.e.".
00:13:38 <shachaf> "eg" and "ie"? Or is that going too far?
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00:18:35 <oerjan> their killing are bots
00:21:04 <oerjan> en:hth = nn:hth, en:N.B. = nb:N.B.
00:21:26 <oerjan> N.B. is latin, after all
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00:23:15 <oerjan> (håper det(te) hjelper)
00:23:36 <oerjan> actually i'm not sure of the ending of that last word
00:25:04 <oerjan> which means it's identicall in nb and nn, hth
00:26:03 <HackEgo> firefly/FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
00:26:21 <oerjan> nn could also be håpar
00:27:31 <oerjan> hm "vonar" would be more stereotypically nn
00:28:47 <oerjan> nn for poetry, nb for technical stuff vdh
00:29:53 <oerjan> unless, like i did, you come upon an early 20th century nn popular science treatise on angle trisection
00:30:11 <oerjan> that was really something
00:33:44 <shachaf> is poetry translated from nn to en better than poetry translated from nb to en
00:34:07 <oerjan> no idea, i don't particularly read poetry
00:34:31 <oerjan> and i'm not sure i've ever seen poetry translated from norwegian to english
00:38:33 <oerjan> ♫ du skal ikkje sova bort sumarnatta ♫ ho er for ljos til det... ♫
00:41:29 * oerjan had no idea that lyrics had a depressing backstory
00:41:41 <boily> we shall eek sofa bort Sumatra, oh err for loss till death?
00:41:53 <oerjan> death was involved, yes
00:41:55 <boily> (my ungoogled attempt at translating that thing.)
00:42:14 <oerjan> (although not _in_ the lyrics afair)
00:42:30 <shachaf> 17:26 <oerjan> (håper det(te) hjelper)
00:42:44 <shachaf> oerjan seems obsessed with death
00:42:44 <boily> what's a sofa bort, and why does it need to be from Sumatra?
00:43:00 <shachaf> given how often they talk about it
00:43:18 <oerjan> no:det,dette = en:the,that,this hth
00:44:21 <shachaf> surely you mean "no:det,dette vdh = en:the,that,this hth"
00:44:26 <oerjan> (the "the" usage is often elided)
00:44:47 <oerjan> shachaf: vdh is nn, not nb hth
00:45:12 <shachaf> which i assume is some sort of union
00:45:13 <boily> so, if I understand correctly, the lyrics mourn the loss of a Sumatran sofa bort?
00:45:36 <shachaf> perhaps sumarnatta is more like a summer night
00:45:39 <oerjan> shachaf: which could have been why i left out vdh
00:46:03 <shachaf> ikkje seems suspiciously dutch
00:46:07 <oerjan> shachaf: ♫ ding ding ding ♫
00:46:27 <oerjan> (well, _the_ summer night)
00:46:57 <boily> we shall little-Dutch-thing something something on the summer night, oh is for loss until that?
00:48:47 <oerjan> google translate is pretty bad, i see
00:49:54 <oerjan> well technically the words it fails worst at are those that are strictly nn
00:51:06 <oerjan> we shall not sleep away the summer night, it is too bright for that hth
00:52:10 <boily> so nn:for is en:far. tdh.
00:52:35 <boily> but what part is “not,” what's “sleep” and what's “away”?
00:52:42 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
00:52:50 <oerjan> ikkje, sova, bort, hth
00:53:25 <boily> so nn:for is en:for?
00:53:49 <oerjan> although technically it was nn:til in the above
00:54:23 <oerjan> nn:for = en:too, in this case
00:54:38 <boily> *facedesk* *facedesk* *facedesk*
00:54:54 <oerjan> they're both germanic languages, the word order isn't _that_ different.
00:56:27 * oerjan gives boily some headache pills
00:56:55 * boily accepts the pills with gratitude
00:57:26 <oerjan> norwegian prepositions are about as insane as english ones, and _not_ corresponding insanities, either
00:58:28 <boily> I'm still a proponent of a Japonorwegian merger. sane, immuable, logical particles instead of abhorrent prepositions.
00:58:55 <oerjan> are you implying that japanese is sane tdnh
00:59:08 <boily> shachaf: apart from a suspicious lack of vowels, are there any unmanageable grammatical points in Hebrew too?
00:59:15 <boily> oerjan: uuuuh... yes?
00:59:58 <oerjan> boily: i believe the main insanity of hebrew is that most of the grammar resides in the unwritten vowels hth
01:00:25 <oerjan> (this is shared with other semitic languages such as arabic)
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01:01:33 <oerjan> (although iirc not _all_ vowels are unwritten)
01:03:23 <boily> insane verb conjugations? insane irregularities? insane prepositions? insane grammatical numbers?
01:03:52 <oerjan> boily: have i previously mentioned that for geographical place names in norwegian, you need to learn individually whether the preposition corresponding to en:in is no:i or no:på hth
01:04:17 <boily> no you didn't. now you did. this is scaring my fungotless.
01:04:17 <fungot> boily: breaches of intermediate severity. while a sentence of this distribution, no distribution occurs.
01:04:39 <fungot> Available: agora* alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
01:04:43 <boily> fungot: stop being sentient, but thanks for supporting me.
01:04:43 <fungot> boily: ( b) a list of who owns land may only be changed except as
01:05:08 <shachaf> can fungot have a style based on the US Internal Revenue Code twh
01:05:08 <fungot> shachaf: iv) the political status of any legal significance, the notary shall declare the most
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01:07:48 <shachaf> it turns out ^style irc is v. different
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01:11:01 <oerjan> boily: of course this is in addition to having to learn the gender of every noun, but as a french-speaker you're already used to that.
01:12:34 <shachaf> Doesn't Norwegian have that too?
01:12:44 <oerjan> shachaf: i was speaking about norwegian
01:12:57 <boily> the problem with already inherently knowing the gender of nouns, is that when you're learning another language with them there are plenty of jarring mishaps hth
01:13:05 <shachaf> Oh, I thought that was still about Hebrew.
01:13:19 <shachaf> But Norwegian has three genders, right?
01:13:24 <boily> it can still be about Hebrew. it has genders, right?
01:13:27 <oerjan> which reminds me that iirc, in hebrew, the word for answering machine is the masculine form of the word for secretary. very politically correct.
01:14:35 <shachaf> oerjan: have not encountered that
01:15:02 <boily> «un secrétaire» can be a kind of furniture, on top of it secretary meaning.
01:15:30 <boily> (whereas «une secrétaire» is always a woman whose job is being a secretary.)
01:15:45 <shachaf> on the other hand hebrew has all sorts of things
01:15:54 <shachaf> did you know the word for husband was the same as the word for owner
01:20:00 <oerjan> i also recall that in german, the way to be gender neutral about job titles is to use both forms with a slash. in norwegian we've mostly just decided to redefine job titles as being gender neutral whenever sensible regardless of grammatical gender.
01:21:11 <boily> feminine forms are a little bit irregular. docteur/docteure, acteur/actrice, boulanger/boulangère...
01:21:20 <shachaf> oerjan: next up do that for all other words twh
01:23:40 <oerjan> although many, but not all titles ending in -mann or -søster have been replaced. the progressive party famously <strike>still calls</strike> used to call its leader "formann" rather than "leder".
01:24:14 <oerjan> apparently they changed in 2009, 3 years after they got a female one.
01:26:06 <oerjan> many job titles would previously have added a feminine -inne ending, which was the closest thing to a grammatical variation.
01:26:18 <oerjan> (which german still does with -in)
01:27:58 <oerjan> i recall some bible verse using the actual word "manninne" for woman, i don't think it's ever been used elsewhere
01:29:32 <oerjan> i assume in hebrew like in english, the usual word for woman is actually related to the usual word for man
01:29:42 <oerjan> which is not the case in norwegian.
01:30:07 <oerjan> so the translaters had a bit of trouble with that verse, i assume
01:31:00 <boily> `learn A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
01:31:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'translater': A translater is one who transes a long time after the fact.
01:31:42 <oerjan> `learn A transformer is one who used to transe, but no longer does.
01:31:44 <HackEgo> Learned 'transformer': A transformer is one who used to transe, but no longer does.
01:31:54 <oerjan> `learn A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
01:31:56 <HackEgo> Learned 'transformer': A transformer is one who used to trans, but no longer does.
01:32:40 <shachaf> oerjan: genesis 2:23 uses two different words for man, it seems
01:33:04 <shachaf> but your assumption is correct
01:34:11 <shachaf> whoa, fancy: http://mathoverflow.net/q/211159
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02:21:14 <oren> gender neutral is bleh. They should just have 3 forms: male female and plural and use the plural for gender neutral like "they".
02:23:12 <oren> unless norwegian doesn't use neutral-plural for neutral-singular?
02:23:27 <oerjan> oren: norwegian doesn't actually have a "gender neutral" pronoun for persons.
02:23:56 <shachaf> grammatical gender is scow
02:24:28 <oerjan> the pronoun of "neutral" gender applies strictly to _nouns_ of that grammatical gender, which has nothing consistently to do with any biological issue
02:25:08 <oerjan> e.g. en:house = no:hus, the latter is neuter, so takes pronoun "det".
02:25:35 <oerjan> moreover, there's a separate non-neuter pronoun "den", used for non-persons.
02:25:44 <oren> shachaf: well maybe they could avoid problems by calling it grammatical color instead
02:25:51 <oerjan> (masculine and feminine is often not distinguished)
02:26:45 <oerjan> in fact in danish, there is no grammatical masculine/feminine apart from the personal pronouns
02:27:05 <oerjan> the distinction between neuter/non-neuter still exists, though
02:27:53 <oren> so it's the opposite of what happened in most romance languages
02:27:54 <oerjan> swedish and dutch are similar i think
02:28:19 <oren> rather than merging neuter and masculine, they merged masculine and feminine
02:32:24 <HackEgo> homestuck/Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
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02:59:59 <HackEgo> zomgmodules/ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
03:31:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boolfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43449&oldid=30839 * Phase * (+892) Differences from Brainfuck & Examples
03:34:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boolfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43451&oldid=43449 * Phase * (-345) Remove unneeded text
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03:39:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43452&oldid=43443 * Phase * (+41) /* Paradigms */ Add refract paradigms
03:42:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43453&oldid=43452 * Phase * (+33) Add link to other header
03:42:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Refract]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43454&oldid=43453 * Phase * (-33) Undo revision 43453 by [[Special:Contributions/Phase|Phase]] ([[User talk:Phase|talk]])
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03:44:24 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -1
03:44:25 <HackEgo> 1246) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
03:44:35 <oerjan> `addquote <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
03:44:40 <HackEgo> 1247) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
03:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Argh]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43455 * Phase * (+19) Redirect "Argh" to "Argh!"
03:45:22 <HackEgo> 933) <lexande> sometimes i am confronted with a problem and i think "I know, I'll use Banach-Tarski" \ 1247) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
03:45:51 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:46:27 <oerjan> clearly lexande was the first person ever to think that
03:46:35 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: actually "dammit" is correct
03:47:00 <oerjan> also i suspect you're missing a "not" somewhere
03:47:16 <shachaf> who are you to say what's correct
03:47:34 <oerjan> shachaf: someone told me on the internet QED
03:48:13 <shachaf> http://irclog.perlgeek.de/perl6/2012-01-20#i_5022203
03:49:01 <oerjan> well tweets cannot be original context, that's clearly absurd
03:49:25 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm hungry what shall i eat twh
03:50:00 <Walpurgisnacht> well now I can tell all those people who mis corrected me to shove off
03:51:00 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not good with vegetarian cuisine
03:51:38 <oerjan> i suppose bread counts as vegetarian.
03:51:44 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: lots of chicken
03:52:28 <oerjan> the "official" national dish is sheep in cabbage, when people don't ironically say pizza
03:52:32 <Walpurgisnacht> I just eat idk whatever is put in front of me thats organic
03:54:23 <shachaf> I heard Norwegian pizza was the best in the world.
03:54:49 <oerjan> thousand flees on your camels, google, why are you stealing my arrow keys
03:57:49 <oerjan> the ones that normally allow me to scroll my browser
03:58:02 <shachaf> Are they going up and down in search results?
03:58:25 <shachaf> You used to be able to toggle that by pressing tab.
03:58:32 <shachaf> But I guess that doesn't work anymore.
03:58:42 <zzo38> Can you still use the pageup/pagedown key to scroll the browser window?
03:58:49 <oerjan> i wouldn't know, i only noticed it now
03:59:00 <oerjan> zzo38: i could use my touchpad scroll
04:00:07 <oerjan> shachaf: it doesn't _normally_ happened, it was probably a side effect of me selecting special preferences to rule out new results
04:00:52 <shachaf> How are you supposed to select search results without that feature?
04:01:19 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: i'm sure every country has a really stinky dish
04:02:14 <oerjan> shachaf: with the mouse i guess?
04:02:46 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: that's probably swedish surströmming
04:02:50 <zzo38> Selecting by numbers seem would better?
04:02:56 <shachaf> Sometimes I click links by pressing C-f and typing a substring of the link and then pressing Esc and then pressing Enter.
04:03:11 <shachaf> Remember when Enter was called Return?
04:03:17 <oerjan> zzo38: well if they actually showed the numbers...
04:04:04 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: however, icelandic hákarl has also been mentioned on previous occasions
04:04:17 <oerjan> (poisonous fermented shark)
04:05:18 <oerjan> i haven't tasted either and have no plans not to run away fast if offered
04:05:25 <oerjan> i like lutefisk, though
04:06:14 <oerjan> ...i've probably not tasted lutefisk since i first joined this channel...
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04:13:53 <Jafet> oerjan: "now we have two quotes"
04:18:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:18:32 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:18:39 <oerjan> `` allquotes | tail -1
04:18:44 <HackEgo> 1247) <Jafet> Some people, when confronted with a problem, think "I know, I'll use the Banach-Tarski theorem."
04:19:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43456 * Phase * (+1570) Create €
04:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[€]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43457&oldid=43456 * Phase * (+3008) Add interpreter
04:24:32 <izabera> http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/sequence.txt don't you think this is confusing?
04:26:21 <Jafet> You just need to write those numbers in Taneb's notation.
04:27:29 <lambdabot> [0,1,2,4,16,65536,2003529930406846464979072351560255750447825475569751419265...
04:28:20 <izabera> oerjan: i asked it after seeing the output from lambdabot
04:28:39 <oerjan> well you have to start somewhere
04:29:16 <oerjan> i think 0 may be the only complex number which isn't on any 2^z branch
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04:29:39 <oerjan> 2^z is entire, no branches
04:30:23 <oerjan> i guess that has the corresponding branches
04:31:05 <oerjan> hm now i wonder if there are any loops
04:32:07 <oerjan> obviously no real ones
04:33:50 <oerjan> anyway, 0 is the only number which isn't of the form 2^z
04:35:10 <Jafet> > exp (0.3181315 :+ negate 1.337235)
04:35:11 <lambdabot> 0.31813244152704157 :+ (-1.3372354713231642)
04:35:17 <Jafet> > log (0.3181315 :+ negate 1.337235)
04:35:19 <lambdabot> 0.318131007887779 :+ (-1.3372355870099664)
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06:15:59 <Taneb> Jafet, I have a notation?
06:17:04 <Taneb> Actually, I do have a notation
06:17:31 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
06:17:44 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
06:18:01 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/was not/was/' wisdom/'this sentence'
06:18:44 <Taneb> shachaf, that was the joke
06:18:59 <oerjan> huh IE actually displays mongolian vertical script
06:19:02 <Taneb> Making that wisdom a paradox
06:19:09 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/'this sentence' | grep summary:
06:19:12 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i \'s/was not/was/\' wisdom/\'this sentence\' \ summary: <shachaf> ` sed -i \'s/was/was not/\' wisdom/this\\ sentence \ summary: <shachaf> echo >wisdom/this\\ sentence \'This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.\'
06:19:57 <Taneb> (I preferred it with the not, and seeing as I invented it, I should have final say)
06:20:26 <shachaf> I'm pretty sure you're not the top authority on Tanebventions around here.
06:20:36 <oerjan> of course not, that's me hth
06:20:40 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
06:20:47 <shachaf> At any rate, the sentence you invented is whichever one is in the wisdom.
06:21:03 <shachaf> The reason I changed it back was that the "not" seemed kind of hostile.
06:21:05 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
06:21:11 <shachaf> Taneb seems like more of a mellow kind of person.
06:22:45 <oerjan> Taneb: do you have a cat to keep in your lap while looking mellow twh
06:23:12 <Taneb> If necessary I can probably borrow one
06:23:14 <shachaf> oerjan: "ll" isn't pronounced that way in english hth
06:23:21 <shachaf> you're thinking of spanish
06:23:29 <Taneb> I have a dog, though
06:23:39 <oerjan> Taneb: what about a shark tank to calmly meditate upon?
06:23:55 <oerjan> i guess sharks and dogs don't go well together
06:24:06 <Taneb> oerjan, I also have one of those toy sharks IKEA sells
06:24:45 <shachaf> ikea.us redirects straight to the US site
06:26:12 <oerjan> as opposed to actually _being_ the US site?
06:26:32 <shachaf> well, ikea.com takes you to the site selection page
06:28:34 <shachaf> Taneb: Why are flights SF<->NY so expensive this time of year?
06:28:42 <Taneb> shachaf, holiday season
06:28:47 <oerjan> Taneb: it looks like they've discontinued BLÅHAJ
06:28:47 <shachaf> I think you're our expert on flight prices.
06:29:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43458&oldid=43437 * Rdebath * (-208) Reverting, see talk
06:29:35 <oerjan> well it didn't give an ikea link
06:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43459&oldid=41132 * Rdebath * (+2682) /* I deleted the count. */ new section
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06:31:05 <quintopia> oerjan: for future reference, i don't know a lick of haskell. i can sort of read it based on prolog experience, but i can't category theory worth a damn and i can barely read the types
06:31:18 <shachaf> http://www.ikea.com/ms/de_DE/img/local_store_info/koblenz/pdf_files/Wunschzettel_web.pdf
06:31:55 <oerjan> i guess you're no longer a suspect, then
06:32:12 <oerjan> https://www.reddit.com/r/IKEA/comments/1xuthy/any_hope_on_getting_blåhaj_back_in_production/
06:32:17 <Taneb> Jafet, yes, in my notation, those numbers have quite nice representation
06:33:27 <shachaf> http://www.ikea.com/ae/en/catalog/categories/departments/childrens_ikea/18740/
06:33:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you probably forgot the quotes when googling, then it doesn't bother actually having it on the page hth
06:34:42 <shachaf> It's in http://www.ikea.com/ae/en/catalog/productsaz/1/
06:35:31 <Taneb> shachaf, consider a natural number
06:35:45 <Taneb> You can express one as a bitstring of 1s and 0s in the usual way
06:36:05 <Taneb> You can then express that string as a list of the distances between the 1s
06:36:26 <Taneb> (eg 1011 becomes 0,1,0)
06:36:40 <Taneb> I start at the low bits for reasons
06:38:36 <oerjan> "Women have started participating in the archery and girls in the horse-racing games, but not in Mongolian wrestling."
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06:40:44 <Taneb> shachaf, these distances can then be expressed as natural numbers with the same (now recursive) notation
06:40:56 <shachaf> I feel like I've heard this before.
06:44:52 <oerjan> pretty sure he's explained it here
06:46:26 <oerjan> Taneb: wait, what's the notation for 0
06:46:34 <Taneb> oerjan, empty list
06:47:33 <Taneb> 2 is [1], so [[[]]]
06:47:42 <Taneb> 3 is [0,0], so [[],[]]
06:47:52 <Taneb> 4 is [2], so [[[[]]]]
06:48:04 <oerjan> ok then your 1011 -> [0,1,0] cannot be right
06:48:30 <Taneb> oerjan, I think it should be 1101 on the left
06:48:33 <shachaf> Oh, this is your natural numbers as tree skeletons thing.
06:54:23 <Taneb> Anyway, those numbers in this notation become [], [[]], [[[]]], [[[[]]]], [[[[[]]]]] etc
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07:57:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Forth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43460&oldid=26856 * Phase * (+67) learnxinyminutes link
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08:12:28 <rdococ> I was here the entire time?
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08:36:04 <nooga> any interesting esolangs lately?
08:38:53 <shachaf> Taneb: why are us tax laws so complicated tdnh
08:39:03 <Taneb> If I did they would be simpler
08:39:17 <Taneb> Have you made sure you filled in the box for illegal income
08:39:24 <HackEgo> IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
08:39:57 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/irc | grep summary:
08:39:58 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> learn IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays. \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <olsner> learn irc is useless.
08:40:32 <shachaf> Taneb: i don't have any illegal income as far as i know
08:40:49 <Taneb> Then you should declare that as such
08:41:14 <shachaf> if i declare illegal income is it still illegal?
08:42:35 <int-e> sure, but at least they won't get you for tax evasion
08:43:49 <Jafet> Is there any server not constructed from relays?
08:45:20 <Taneb> Jafet, it's not called Internet Vacuum Tube Chat
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11:17:39 <oerjan> looks like this might be one of those skip-ahead-sleeping-cycle days
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11:43:27 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
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12:33:49 <boily> @tell quintopia Will be momentarily disappearing towards faraway lands. Be back in a few hours. Meanwhile, Steam will be installing the stuff that has to be installed.
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15:05:10 <oren> I've been programming in 6502 machine code
15:06:23 <oren> It's fun to try to set up a subroutine such that jumping into the middle of an instruction gives you a different path.
15:06:58 <Slereah__> Does anyone still program in machine code
15:07:06 <Slereah__> Maybe the people who write assemblers I guess
15:08:39 <oren> I think they probably write in assembly, then hand-translate it..
15:09:32 <Slereah__> Some nerds still do machine code I suppose
15:09:50 <Slereah__> But they do it for the thrill of writing machine code
15:10:17 <Slereah__> Really before I actually learned assembly
15:10:25 <Slereah__> I imagined that assembly was p. much machine code
15:10:31 <Slereah__> So it turned out, it was pretty easy
15:11:54 <oren> Yeah, but 6502 machine code is much easier than other computers machine codes.
15:14:13 <oren> because every instruction is of one of 3 forms: ins, ins byte, ins word.
15:14:41 <oren> where ins is one byte, byte is a data byte, and word is a little-endian data word
15:15:33 <Jafet> In x86, jumping into the middle of an instruction can not only be fun, but extremely profitable
15:16:00 <oren> Slereah__: no. 6502 is strictly in-order
15:16:45 <Jafet> Processors can pipeline strictly in-order
15:16:56 <Slereah__> Hence why I said weird pipelining shit
15:17:13 <Jafet> Out-of-order execution, then
15:17:17 <HackEgo> mips/MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
15:17:31 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*6502*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
15:17:42 <HackEgo> find: `wisdom/*penis*': No such file or directory \ /cat: : No such file or directory
15:17:44 <int-e> MIPS single delay slot after branches is tame though.
15:17:52 <HackEgo> zomgmodules/ZOMGMODULES is both a small blonde veterinarian and just modules over the ring of ZOMGs.
15:19:34 <int-e> fun. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memory_ordering#Runtime_memory_ordering
15:20:37 <izabera> https://asciinema.org/a/23275 <- does this happen only to me?
15:20:42 <oren> Another technique I've been using to mod games is putting a subroutine into the graphics data, if I can find a part that is never acutally used
15:20:51 <izabera> i asked a friend and he can't reproduce
15:21:22 <Jafet> Sounds like an embarrassing medical problem.
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15:24:49 <oren> can you mount a disk over a non-empty directory, and what happens if you do (I think I just accidentally did so)
15:25:38 <Jafet> The directory will point to the disk until it's unmounted.
15:26:44 <Jafet> (A trickier question: do open file handles still work, and what does procfs say their filenames are?)
15:27:04 <oren> ok good, I'll just unmount and mount to the correct place
15:27:30 <oren> hmm actually I'll first check
15:27:40 <oren> yeah I can see the files,
15:27:50 <oren> and the contents are fine
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15:28:55 <oren> oh, do you mean files from before the disk was mounted?
15:29:05 <int-e> izabera: can't reproduce it either; a final empty line seems to get erased, but that's independent of HISTCONTROL
15:29:29 <Jafet> int-e: "Dependent loads can be reordered (this is unique for Alpha)" I'm suddenly glad that nobody uses alpha64.
15:29:50 <izabera> int-e: thanks for the test
15:31:30 <int-e> Jafet: I believe the Linux kernel developers have lots of fun because of this :)
15:31:42 * int-e is a bit disappointed that Sparc is so tame these days...
15:33:00 <Jafet> If an SMP architecture had no mfence instructions, would it qualify as an esolang
15:35:56 <int-e> SMPAWNRMOC -- SMP architecture with no reliable means of communication?
15:36:23 <Jafet> Also, is it possible to maintain an operating system if you have IPIs and privileged mode but no fences
15:36:31 <oren> Idea: a NES emulator that first cross-compiles to x64-opengl
15:36:45 <oren> and then simply runs the program.
15:37:19 <oren> It would not work with my machine coded code, but perhaps many games would work
15:37:33 <Jafet> Wouldn't NES games require cycle-accurate emulators?
15:37:50 <oren> depends which games
15:38:26 <oren> Some games would require the program to have a loop simulating scanlines and vbreaks, others just vbreaks.
15:39:30 <oren> The PPU (picture processing unit) is fairly advanced in the NES.
15:39:41 <oren> Atari, however...
15:40:54 <Jafet> Maybe start by decompiling 6502 to qemu TCG
15:54:44 <Jafet> Actually, it's possible to communicate by busy-waiting on a cache line, so there is a reliable, if stupid, means of communication
15:56:43 <int-e> Jafet: that's assuming some amount of cache coherence.
15:59:26 <Jafet> Well, it only assumes that the write from one core, if nothing else writes to the same memory, is eventually read by another core
16:01:01 <int-e> the way I was picturing it, the only way to force a memory read would be to read from a memory location that's not in the cache, and writing only happens on flushing cache lines; at the same time, the CPU is allowed to do arbitrary prefetching or write-back; I guess I would not allow it to write data that is inconsistent with its own cache state.
16:02:00 <int-e> so in the typical spin lock case, the CPU could just decide to never write back that cache line...
16:02:04 <Jafet> You can force that by reading a number of cache lines larger than the cache size
16:02:18 <Jafet> And you can probe the cache size by reading 1 extra, then 2 extra, then 3 extra lines...
16:02:37 <int-e> not really, the evil CPU can decide to keep that cache line around just to spite you ;)
16:03:04 <int-e> so you actually need to use a memory area larger than the cache to force some write to go through
16:03:23 <int-e> Of course I'm just aiming for nastiness here.
16:04:03 <Jafet> Ok, then use a really large memory area for communicating a single bit
16:04:26 <Jafet> (well, you can communicate anything that fits in one line, copying it over and over.)
16:04:48 <Jafet> This is starting to sound appropriately esoteric
16:06:21 <int-e> but somehow boring :/
16:08:51 <Jafet> I guess the problem is, the cache size bounds the evilness of the memory bus
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16:11:00 <int-e> hmm, here's an evil idea for single-threaded programs: At program start, set up the data area so that each memory cell has a randomly assigned buddy; updates to the memory cell will also update its buddy and vice versa... now write reliable programs on top of that. shouldn't be hard, but what kind of patterns would you use?
16:12:10 <int-e> (this is inspired by an actual broken MFM drive I once had, with one address line broken... which confused the hell of a "disk repair" tool. good old times...)
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16:19:47 <Jafet> To begin with, there are (n n/2)/2 possible sets of non-interfering cells, which could be represented in about 2n bits
16:21:35 <Jafet> So this might be more fun if each word has not much more than 4 bits
16:22:48 <Jafet> Alternatively, make all registers also memory mapped
16:23:22 <zzo38> One way in a 6502 code where jumping into the middle of an instruction might be useful is the case of a "clock slide"
16:25:24 <zzo38> I know how to do 6502 programming.
16:29:30 <zzo38> A NES/Famicom emulator that doesn't emulate each cycle accurately is simply incorrect. However, there are many ways to make it incomplete without being incorrect, such as: * Don't play any audio (but you still need to implement the length counters and the DPCM timing and DPCM interference) * Omit implementations of some mappers * Omit implementation of some input devices * Run slower than realtime * Require only batch I/O
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16:33:44 <zzo38> To be correct you must also implement all stable unofficial opcodes, and of any mappers you are implementing, even the features that were never used (although you can omit playback of expansion audio and therefore omit implementation of registers that affect only audio and don't affect interrupts or the reading of any other registers or whatever else)
16:35:48 <mroman_> If T-Shirts don't do shit against the sun
16:36:04 <mroman_> then how come I have never gotten a sun burn on the part of the skin covered by a T-Shirt
16:36:17 <mroman_> which means that I wouldn't even need suncream
16:36:18 <int-e> mroman_: [citation needed]
16:36:30 <mroman_> WP on the other hand states that a white t-shirt has a pf of 10
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16:36:43 <mroman_> so since if've never got burnt while wearing a t-shirt
16:36:53 <mroman_> this would indicate that you don't need pf >30 or even 50
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16:37:05 <mroman_> somebody is lying like shit
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16:39:48 <int-e> https://outdoors.stackexchange.com/questions/1226/whats-the-upf-of-a-t-shirt-or-jeans seems relevant
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16:56:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43461&oldid=43459 * Zzo38 * (+1170) Unicode is not a valid assumption.
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17:12:58 <oren> zzo38: well yes, but *how* incorrect is it? To what degree do production NES games rely on length of instruction execution? For example, many games I've analyzed spend most of their time busywaiting for the VBreak.
17:15:23 <zzo38> oren: It doesn't matter; it is still incorrect, since then a program you write really strangely which is still valid but that nobody knows before, won't be executed correctly.
17:17:31 <mroman_> Suncream is all full of bullshit
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17:18:18 <oren> I usually opt to use an umbrella on super sunny days
17:18:48 <mroman_> Can't do sports with an umbrella though.
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17:19:01 <boily> sounds like a challenge.
17:20:14 <mroman_> a T-Shirt is as good as applying suncream with 30 SPF
17:20:58 <Taneb> mroman_, t-shirt doesn't cover your nose
17:21:21 <Taneb> Unless you're wearing it wrong
17:21:35 <Taneb> In which case it doesn't cover your chest
17:21:48 <Taneb> (and I normally use 50+ suncream)
17:21:58 <mroman_> I used to do sports outside with shirt off
17:22:08 <mroman_> but my hyperchondriasis has gone worse
17:22:26 <boily> what's hyperchondriasis?
17:23:23 <oren> hypochondriac: someone who constantly worries about geeting ill
17:24:18 <mroman_> call it heliophobia then .
17:24:33 <oren> I use an umbrella because I burn easily. damned russian and irish genes.
17:24:44 <boily> oren: yes, but for mroman_ it's hyper.
17:25:01 <boily> ah! there was a hypocorrection I haven't seen.
17:25:05 <int-e> Also 10 UPF is 30 SPF <-- only because SPF factors tend to be inflated (assuming optimal application of probably insane amounts of sun cream)
17:25:34 <int-e> hmm. s/SPF factors/SPFs/.
17:27:02 <oren> what's the UPF of a completely opaque object?
17:27:42 <boily> some random positive integer. probably 5.
17:27:45 <int-e> good question, how much UVA is in vacuum radiation? ;-)
17:42:37 <quintopia> helloily. I'm gonna go for an hour or two now. Is the installation complete?
17:47:17 <boily> redeeming my keys and downloading the stuff.
17:47:44 <boily> 55% on borderlands 2, downloading at 1.2 MB/s.
17:47:57 <boily> is there an ETA or ETC in steam?
17:48:14 <quintopia> there is a progress bar in the downloads list
17:48:22 <int-e> utopia, bitopia (biotopia), tritopia, quadtopia, quintopia, sixtopia, heptopia, octatopia?
17:48:27 <boily> that much is there.
17:48:50 * int-e somehow never saw the "quint" in there before.
17:48:52 <boily> I'd say... eh... probably somewhere in an hour, maybe 90 minutes.
17:49:24 <boily> char-e, short-e, int-e, long-e too?
17:50:01 <boily> that would presuppose a float-e, and maybe an arbitrary-precision-e.
17:51:23 <int-e> anyway I guess I deserved that
17:51:37 <int-e> just correcting a type error.
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17:52:37 <shachaf> I assumed int-e was an interrupt, not an integer.
18:01:10 <quintopia> boily: you should read the ONUW I just played in. It was the most shocking game I've ever played.
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18:07:30 <boily> question of the day: is int-e maskable?
18:07:46 <boily> quintopia: is it also on xkcd's forums?
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18:13:17 <b_jonas> boily: I don't think int-e is an interrupt. it's more like an integer or integral or internal or intrinsic or intricacy or integrity or something.
18:13:20 <oren> I assumed int-e meant interrupt E out of 10
18:13:52 <oren> like maybe some processor has 16 interrupt lines?
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18:30:29 <fizzie> Every time I see anything related to complex numbers, the word "zomplex" pops up somewhere in my head.
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18:30:57 <fizzie> (It's a double-precision complex value.)
18:31:49 <fizzie> shazzie. Err, no, I got that wrong.
18:32:10 <shachaf> I think you mean fizzichaf
18:32:28 <shachaf> Do you want a patch to fix it?
18:32:40 <fizzie> Is it a one-line patch?
18:33:58 <fizzie> It's kind of awkward: the "correct" way would be to go via https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-requests because if I out-of-band patch the HackEgo instance, it might complicate Gregor's life unnecessarily.
18:34:03 <fizzie> But that might involve even more waiting.
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18:34:58 <shachaf> Anyway the one line fix involves learning find syntax.
18:40:04 <fizzie> Yeah, it's nasty. I think the find might look something like find "$HACKENV" -path "$HACKENV/.hg" -prune -o -name '*.orig' -exec rm -f '{}' \; -- you *can* do it by an extra test for every file, but the documentation says you're not supposed to. I did something like this once.
18:41:33 <shachaf> There's also -not -path "$HACKENV/.hg/*"
18:41:40 <fizzie> Yes, but it's LESS EFFICIENT.
18:41:55 <shachaf> Yes, it'll traverse the whole directory. What a disaster.
18:42:00 <fizzie> "To ignore a whole directory tree, use -prune rather than checking every file in the tree."
18:42:05 <fizzie> See, that's what they say.
18:42:31 <HackEgo> oerjan mroman_ oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan fizzie Bike FreeFull elliott oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
18:43:17 <boily> huh. I never culprited fizzie.
18:44:07 <fizzie> My shameful secret of setting my own wisdom entry is revealed. :/
18:46:24 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/fizzie | grep '<fizzie>'
18:46:25 <HackEgo> summary: <fizzie> learn fizzie is not fnord with a monad.
18:46:52 <shachaf> fizzie: can you make ^style irc be the internal revenue code for a while twh
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18:51:10 <boily> quintopia: fungot fscking dammit. stuck with updates. 55 minutes remaining.
18:51:10 <fungot> boily: an order requiring the clerk of the change; but if the weather for a cardinal's claim until the judge of a
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18:57:02 <quintopia> boily: no prob. itll be at least that long before i finish my errands
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19:19:50 <fizzie> I think what I put there was a fungot quote.
19:19:50 <fungot> fizzie: ( d) the matter being considered, for every five blots e wishes in a month, the
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19:42:42 <HackEgo> test/test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
19:42:52 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
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19:47:08 <b_jonas> `` culprits wisdom/test | sort | uniq -c
19:47:09 <HackEgo> 1 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_ mroman_
19:47:16 <b_jonas> `` culprits wisdom/test | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c
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20:22:33 <HackEgo> homestuck/Homestuck is a cult religion for disaffected teens. Gamzee drives the bus. Best summarized by http://www.mspaintadventures.com/storyfiles/hs2/05743.gif
20:22:41 <HackEgo> marmite/Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
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20:40:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:TrivialBrainfuckSubstitution]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43462&oldid=43461 * Rdebath * (+292) /* I deleted the count. */
20:42:57 <HackEgo> ø/ø is not going anywhere.
20:43:13 -!- h0rsep0wer has joined.
20:52:15 <HackEgo> wikipedia/Wikipedia is a bit like TVTropes but in more languages.
20:52:34 <HackEgo> itym/itym "i think you mean" hth
20:52:37 <HackEgo> oerjan_/oerjan_ is oerjan and ørjan's chimæric clone. he shows up on irc when the network is having trouble.
20:53:10 <boily> time for some update... but tomorrow. today I'm steaming my laptop.
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21:26:08 <quintopia> have you gotten your laptop sufficiently angry yet?
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21:36:55 <oren> they should make a wikipedia where all facts are represented in RDF instead of a human lanuage
21:37:24 <boily> quintopia: the only thing missing are my headphones, and we're good to go.
21:38:19 <oren> RDF is this url-based system for representing predicates
21:38:36 <oren> zzo38 knows a lot about it
21:43:39 <oren> `le/rn RDF/RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
21:44:22 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | cut -d / -f 1) \ [ -z "$topic" ] && exit 1 \ value=$(echo "$1" | cut -d / -f 2-) \ echo "$value" > wisdom/"$topic" && echo "Learned «$topic»"
21:44:31 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
21:44:34 <shachaf> Hmm, mk doesn't lowercase either.
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21:49:33 <boily> it happened that steam crashed, and doesn't want to be launched again.
21:50:42 <boily> going to log off, log back in, see if it still antagonizes me, perhaps reboot.
21:50:52 -!- boily has quit (Quit: CURVY CHICKEN).
21:51:12 <int-e> . o O ( STEAMING CHICKEN )
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22:32:03 <zzo38> RDF is a kind of directed-graphs with nodes and kind of edges identified by URIs.
22:32:21 <zzo38> Except that there is also literals, and also unlabeled nodes.
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22:43:42 <HackEgo> RDF is something zzo38 knows about.
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23:05:27 <oerjan> Inri_Cristo: thought you were one of the people looking for the wrong kind of esoteric for a moment there
23:07:22 -!- Inri_Cristo has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
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23:16:01 <zzo38> Inri_Cristo didn't write anything yet though, therefore is also possibility some people are join just to look, too
23:16:17 <zzo38> (At least, not recently)
23:20:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SuperPar]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43463&oldid=20844 * Zzo38 * (+644)
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23:21:30 <zzo38> Yes, I am here and probably a few others
23:21:58 <frecz> does anybody have experience with precognitive dreams?
23:22:19 <zzo38> I know someone who does
23:22:40 <frecz> because I'm really lost
23:23:07 <frecz> can;t figure out how come one can dream about the future
23:23:08 <zzo38> I myself cannot say though. I have many kind of strange dream recorded in my computer (myself and others), but not precognitive or anything like that I know!
23:23:15 <zzo38> If you want information, look in Wikipedia
23:23:27 <frecz> trust me I looked everywhere
23:23:50 <frecz> I even contacted a research group
23:24:22 <zzo38> Some people say it is just coincidence. Probably at least in some cases it is.
23:24:42 <frecz> I wish they were just soincidence
23:25:36 <frecz> and there is an indication after waking from these dreams that they are precognitive
23:25:41 <zzo38> Another possibility I thought of (now known to be wrong, I think?) is that it isn't really precognitive but your memory is mixed up because the dream is confusing that you know afterward seem it is
23:26:02 <frecz> ok here is an example:
23:26:24 <frecz> one night I dream about a guy who has got green dices on his forehead
23:26:34 <frecz> I even told to my friend what a strange dream
23:27:06 <HackEgo> frecz: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:27:20 <zzo38> If you tell someone ahead of time, don't you think they can cause it?
23:27:21 <oren> ACK NAK ETX VT
23:27:28 <frecz> 3 days later I met a guy at a train station who had got a piercing in his eyebrows and 2 green dices attached both of its ends
23:28:09 <frecz> can you tell me that it is a coincidence?
23:28:36 <zzo38> oren: Is that supposed to be names of ASCII codes? Of what kind of program is it the ASCII codes of?
23:28:42 <zzo38> frecz: I can say I don't know!
23:29:12 <oren> I'm working on an aternative to ANSI escapes..
23:29:16 <frecz> I'm 100% percent sure that they are precognitive
23:29:24 <zzo38> Possibly due to "morphic resonance fields" which nobody really knows anything about or even if it is exist.
23:29:33 <frecz> and trust me I'm skeptic in general
23:29:59 <zzo38> I am also skeptical but equally I know I don't know everything and should consider all of the possibilities regardless.
23:30:08 <zzo38> oren: O, OK. Do you have a document of it?
23:30:34 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you if there are too many possibilities to consider?
23:30:41 <frecz> anybody here has got these dreams?
23:30:55 <zzo38> shachaf: I didn't say I *can* consider all of the possibilities, only that I *should*.
23:31:05 <shachaf> Should you do the impossible?
23:31:11 <oren> Working on that right now... So essentially I'm working on a program to translate my simpler escapes into termios/a
23:31:22 <oren> ANSI escapes and so on
23:31:27 <frecz> guys to be honest, something is wrong with this world
23:31:39 <frecz> or I should say woth this universe
23:31:55 <zzo38> frecz: Not as far as I remember, I have had such dream, but I have had some kind of strange dream too
23:32:01 <frecz> something just doesnt add up
23:32:18 <frecz> they are not just strange dreams
23:32:23 <oren> Maybe you need to learn more about the world.
23:32:28 <frecz> I have those every now on then
23:32:36 <frecz> these dreams are different
23:33:10 <zzo38> oren: It is true, even physicists don't know all of laws of physics, such as how to combine general relativity with quantum mechanics, I think.
23:33:23 <zzo38> This clearly explains something, but who knows what, yet?
23:33:27 <oerjan> zzo38: i meant based on Inri_Cristo's nickname
23:33:43 -!- Inri_Cristo has changed nick to h0rsep0wer.
23:33:43 <oren> For example, people essentially overwrite their memories every time they remember them. Thus, what you remeber your dream being now, isn't necessarily what it really was
23:34:07 <zzo38> Well, "INRI" is Latin for "Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews", isn't it?
23:34:40 <frecz> oren: I see your point
23:34:43 <zzo38> oren: Yes I have thought of that as one possible way, but in some cases I have heard of, that hypothesis doesn't work (in some cases it does though)
23:34:52 <frecz> and trust I wish that would be my case
23:35:06 <frecz> but sadly it is not...
23:35:09 <oren> Iesus Nazarenus, Rex Iudaiorum
23:35:30 <zzo38> oren: Yes I know a few Latin words like that
23:36:09 <oren> frecz: Try writing your dreams down every morning, then you can test whether you can remember them correctly after a few days
23:36:30 <zzo38> Yes, that is a good test, I believe so too
23:36:49 <frecz> I can recall all of my dreams without writing them down
23:37:08 <frecz> I can even tell you what I dreamed about 2 years ago
23:37:11 <oren> But how do you know you aren't remembering them wrong
23:37:15 <zzo38> If you never wrote it down or told anyone or otherwise communicate it, how do you know your memory is not mix up?
23:37:52 <frecz> because these dreams seems so real that I wake up immedietaly and I'm full of sweat
23:38:16 <frecz> those dreams are so real that I need at least half an hour to get back to real life...
23:38:16 <zzo38> That isn't a real proof
23:38:19 <oren> Next time that happens, try writing it on IRC right away
23:38:42 <zzo38> Write it anywhere. IRC, paper, or tell it to a tape recorder, whatever
23:38:44 <frecz> nobody would believe me
23:38:56 <oren> It will be logged, then when it happens you can prove that you knew
23:39:01 <zzo38> frecz: Doesn't matter.
23:39:17 <zzo38> And, yes, this IRC channel is logged, including timestamps.
23:39:32 <frecz> how can I proove that something happened to me via irc?
23:40:14 <zzo38> Before you prove it to others, you must prove it to yourself.
23:40:17 <oren> you can't do that, but *you* will know if you are lying
23:40:39 <frecz> I don't need proof for myself
23:40:49 <frecz> I know that I'm not crazy
23:40:59 <frecz> I know that I've had those dreams
23:41:11 <shachaf> zzo38: What would you say about a dream where seven thin cows eat seven fat cows?
23:41:36 <zzo38> shachaf: Just that it look strange, but I also seem to remember I think in the Bible something like that is mentioned, or something like that
23:41:50 <oren> That's impossible to know for sure. the definition of crazy is based on society at large, hence an individual can't tell for himself whther he is crazy.
23:42:51 <zzo38> Even society at large, I think, does not know; but an individual doesn't know either, you can only guess
23:43:51 <oren> Oh right that was in the movie Joseph king of dreams
23:44:25 <Sgeo_> Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pY29UTk59uw the official profunctor lens anthem?
23:45:22 <zzo38> I do record many of my own dream I remember (or believe I remember the details I typed) anyways, and also from what others have told me too; but, not precognitive as far as I know.
23:45:39 <Sgeo_> shachaf, I think you know why
23:46:16 <shachaf> Sgeo_: I can't play audio right now.
23:46:20 <shachaf> Is it just because of the name Forget?
23:46:38 <shachaf> I called it Forget because it's used for getting.
23:46:46 <shachaf> I never intended that to be a real name.
23:47:07 <mauris> the best pun since Atkey
23:48:32 <zzo38> Once I watched a television show, some scientists were researching reincarnation, and I thought: Reincarnation? That's nonsense; it is really a new kind of resonance. This was not mentioned on the show; they just called it reincarnation. Later though I learned that the researcher did have a similar idea to what I had; they just didn't mention it on the TV.
23:49:54 <zzo38> But, of course, how am I even to say for sure, if nobody even understand very well yet?
23:52:01 <frecz> zzo38: do you like poutine?
23:52:29 <zzo38> (Even though I am Canadian, but I don't live in Quebec)
23:53:10 <boily> frellocz! do you like poutine?
23:53:13 <frecz> I wish to try some poutine with real cheese curds
23:53:14 <shachaf> zzo38: If you lived in Quebec, would you like poutine?
23:53:23 <zzo38> shachaf: How would I know?
23:53:45 <shachaf> zzo38: You can give me your best approximation of the answer.
23:54:14 <zzo38> My best approximation is still that I don't know, though.
23:54:27 <frecz> Canada is one of the best places on earth I think
23:55:29 <frecz> and canadians are one of the best people on earth
23:56:55 <boily> we're also nice under earth, besides earth, even in space!
23:56:57 <oerjan> eek frecz likes poutine? this cannot be just coincidence. boily?!!!
23:57:24 <boily> oerjan: they haven't tried the REAL DEAL yet, with real cheese curds.
23:57:30 <oren> I'm Ontarian so I prefer vinegar on fries
23:57:32 <shachaf> ` rot13 frecz # coincidence
23:57:32 <boily> frecz: ever been to Québec?
23:57:37 <shachaf> I guess it is a coincidence.
23:57:40 <boily> oren: malt vinegar?
23:57:45 <frecz> boily: that is what I'm talking about
23:57:47 <shachaf> oops, missed a question mark
23:57:56 <frecz> boily: never been to Canada
23:58:05 <zzo38> Some things are described as "coincidence" or "not coincidence" but don't tell how much coincidence it is, since this could matter too maybe
23:58:11 <oerjan> shachaf: you're probably an atheist and wouldn't recognize a synchronicity if it bit you in the ass hth
23:58:22 <boily> oren: I agree with you. fish'n'chips with malt vinegar. and a pint of ale.
23:58:27 <oerjan> (this goes for 90% of the channel)
23:58:31 <shachaf> oerjan: what's with all these assumptions
23:58:49 * oerjan vaguely prepares to learn that shachaf is strictly hasidic
23:58:54 <zzo38> I think synchronicitity is subjective anyways though?
23:59:32 <boily> frecz: you should come to Montréal, enjoy the scenery, the food, the potholes...
23:59:45 <oren> oerjan: I don't even know how to pronounce syncronicity
00:00:10 <zzo38> Won't it tell you in the dictionary the way of pronounce it?
00:00:36 <oerjan> oren: i'm not absolutely sure i know either, i've been assuming it's the obvious way?
00:00:36 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of Raymond Smullyan?
00:01:00 <frecz> to visit Canad ais on my bucket list
00:01:42 <zzo38> shachaf: I haven't read any of those book yet but I should read it, and then I can know.
00:02:07 <boily> frecz: by the way, let me ask you the The Question: what are your approximate geographic coördinates and body weigh?
00:02:11 <oren> sin kron ick it ee?
00:02:13 <mauris> oerjan: itym: "and wouldn't recognize a synchronicity if two of them bit you in the ass at the same time hth" hth
00:02:26 <oerjan> mauris: darn you got me there
00:02:36 <frecz> boily: why would you be interested in my body weight?
00:02:46 <oerjan> mauris: i think this is synchronistic with the recent banach-tarski event hth
00:02:49 <shachaf> No one asked about your body weight.
00:02:49 <boily> oren: sink cron iss it ee.
00:02:49 -!- tromp has joined.
00:03:32 <boily> frecz: it is traditional. it is part of the The Question. also, you don't have to be truthful. in fact, a lot of us are actively unhelpful for that hth
00:04:08 <frecz> boily: I'm a bit overweight but not obese if that is what you were looking for
00:04:09 <oerjan> `le/rn the question/The The Question is the fundamental mystery of #esoteric, and boily is its master.
00:04:09 <zzo38> I thought it is to calculate the center of mass?
00:04:48 <shachaf> Is there only one The Question?
00:05:02 <shachaf> I thought the The Question boily asks was one of several.
00:05:03 <mauris> zzo38: i thought so too, then dismissed it as being too obvious :(
00:05:12 <boily> it's the The Question. no dualism, no hambiguity.
00:05:14 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't know, maybe should try running it through Banach-Tarski?
00:05:21 <boily> mauris: zzo38 is correct.
00:05:21 <oren> `1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./~!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?
00:05:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./~!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?: No such file or directory
00:05:28 <oren> testing new font
00:05:41 <shachaf> oren: please test new font in your /msg HackEgo window twh
00:05:59 <zzo38> There might be other question too that other people can ask too, I suppose
00:06:15 <mauris> §€µ£²³. azerty helpfulness right here
00:06:21 <frecz> ok guys off to quake live
00:06:52 <boily> zzo38: yes, but they aren't going to be completely The-y. their The-ness will only be strictly less than the The of the The Question itself.
00:06:57 <oren> OCR A EXTENDED is my new font
00:07:11 * boily mapoles mauris for using the most horrible layout out there. BLETCH!
00:07:21 <zzo38> boily: Yes, that does seem correct
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00:08:04 <oerjan> <shachaf> oops, missed a question mark <-- wait, i think i overinterpreted that missing mark
00:08:17 <oerjan> oh well, it was probably fate.
00:08:47 <shachaf> oerjan: it was meant to be "coincidence?"
00:08:53 <oren> those characters are showing up fine.
00:09:00 <shachaf> and then you interpreted it as the opposite or something
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00:09:55 <mauris> boily: you should like, weight by lines typed!!
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00:14:35 <oerjan> shachaf: yep, ending with your brutal conversion to hasidism
00:14:58 <oerjan> hm, are you at berkeley, or just nearby
00:15:14 <boily> mauris: fizzie does that in his fizziegraphs.
00:15:24 * oerjan has recently learned weird things about berkeley
00:15:24 <shachaf> Do you mean the university?
00:15:51 <oerjan> i'm not sure, how far does the weirdness spread?
00:16:19 <shachaf> The city is a nuclear-free zone, the university isn't.
00:16:34 <oerjan> does it have its own reactor?
00:17:35 <shachaf> What's the weirdness you were talking about?
00:18:39 <oren> I'm undecided between OCR A and this font http://postimg.org/image/atjas13rt/
00:19:23 <oerjan> shachaf: well one scott a blog pointed me to another and suddenly i found myself in a post about polyamorism at berkeley
00:19:39 <oerjan> i wasn't actually mentioned
00:19:45 <mauris> i would stop using computers if those were The Two fonts
00:20:02 <shachaf> oerjan: can you help me parse the beginning of that sentence twh
00:20:10 <oerjan> and eliezer yudkowski was part of it
00:20:19 <mauris> "one Scott A. blog" etc
00:20:44 <oerjan> shachaf: scott aaronson has been recently impressed with the content on scott alexander's blog
00:20:51 <oren> eliezer yudkowski is the harem-forming prophet of Transhumanism
00:21:08 <oerjan> oren: i just didn't know he was being so literal about it
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00:22:11 <oren> Overall it seems anyone who starts a religion gets lots of women
00:22:46 <oerjan> oren: i didn't know that applied to uber-geek religions too
00:24:51 <oerjan> never can remember how to spell it
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00:28:09 <shachaf> oerjan: which part is the weirdness twh
00:28:44 <oerjan> the way polyamorism was apparently considered completely normal in that community
00:30:05 <oerjan> i would add "not that there is anything wrong with that", but i'd like to give the experiment a few more decades before concluding.
00:30:10 <shachaf> i'm not sure that's a berkeley thing in particular
00:34:03 <oerjan> well obviously i'm overinterpreting things again
00:36:22 <shachaf> anyway there have been better-qualified people than me to comment in this channel
00:36:32 <shachaf> not sure whether there are any around nowadays
00:38:41 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/c++ | grep summary:
00:38:42 <HackEgo> summary: <fizzie> echo \'Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.\' > wisdom/c++ # C already had a good-enough entry
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00:49:53 <HackEgo> tar/The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf
00:50:15 <shachaf> fizzie: Comment support is a good point against mk.
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01:06:13 <oren> The main reason I have contempt for Eliezer Yudkowsky is I can't find a single example of actual code written by him.
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01:22:25 <HackEgo> Yelany: ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
01:22:42 <oren> Someone should go and find EY and get him to do FizzBuzz
01:23:24 <oerjan> oren: he'll do it as soon as he can prove that FizzBuzz is Friendly hth
01:25:38 <oerjan> "Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español."
01:27:19 <oerjan> oren: ONLY ENGLISH I SAID
01:30:14 <oerjan> Yelany: Entonces tengo que usar Google Translate, y que se pone rápido molesto.
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01:32:19 <Yelany> I have a girlfriend who says
01:35:13 <oren> what does she say?
01:35:58 <Yelany> I have a girlfriend who says
01:37:09 <oren> You have a girlfriend who says "I have a girlfriend"?
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01:38:55 <oren> 魚一匹、魚二匹、赤い魚、青い魚
01:43:25 <oren> damn, wrong words.
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02:02:58 <oerjan> `addquote <Jafet> I guess the problem is, the cache size bounds the evilness of the memory bus
02:03:01 <HackEgo> 1248) <Jafet> I guess the problem is, the cache size bounds the evilness of the memory bus
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02:16:46 <oren> Waitm why did go I buy a freezie when I have ice, sugar and a blender available in my house
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02:21:34 <oerjan> oren: because adventure!
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02:23:04 <Jafet> Because consumerism
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02:28:55 <oren> Jafet: I guess society has trained me to spend money on things I can make for myself.
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03:07:01 <oren> http://www.colorpicker.com/85cdff
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04:25:23 <oren> Idea: language in which ansi escape sequences, or some other method of specifying color, form part of the syntax
04:26:23 <oerjan> ...isn't this what colorforth does?
04:27:08 <oren> what's colorforth
04:27:23 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ColorForth
04:30:26 <oren> Hmm only two colors. I was thinking like using colors to link together elements that would normally require parentheses
04:31:44 <oren> So RED(x)GRN(+)RED(y)+GRN(z) means (x+y)*z
04:31:54 <oerjan> um there's at least also yellow
04:33:02 <oren> Or suppose you have if ... if ... else, you can color the else the same as one of the ifs to link it
04:36:55 <oerjan> "There are white comments, yellow macros, red definitions with gray instructions and green literal numbers and calls to previously defined (red) words."
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04:38:37 <oren> yeah, there the colors sort of are like sigils. I'm using them like brackets and parens
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04:39:44 <oerjan> oren: that's going to give some complications when your nesting is deeper than your number of colors
04:40:26 <oren> Hmmmmm my terminal supports 256 colors tortal, with some duplicates
04:41:15 <oren> but xterm allows 2^24 colors with ^[[38;2;R;G;Bm
04:41:38 <oerjan> complications now shift to actually distinguishing the colors...
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04:42:19 <Jafet> You're already going to have complications when your nesting is deeper than 256
04:43:11 <oerjan> Jafet: don't be silly!
04:45:05 <Jafet> I think emacs cycles through colours for nested brackets
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04:59:24 <oerjan> TIL the uk has special coins that are only used by the queen for a special yearly charity event on maundy thursdays
05:00:27 <oerjan> or, it used to be charity, these days it's apparently more of an honor thing
05:04:57 <oren> Look at all these colors!!!! http://postimg.org/image/g6dbw90bx/
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07:13:56 <oren> Why doesn't anyone just generate .h files from .c files?
07:37:53 <zzo38> I don't know if is some program exist for such purposes
07:38:15 <Deewiant> http://www.hwaci.com/sw/mkhdr/ http://invisible-island.net/cproto/cproto.html
07:38:29 <zzo38> Although, sometimes you might want to put some thing only in a .h file anyways
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08:04:58 <Jafet> There are some wimpy programmers who say that you should write the header files first.
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08:33:00 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull cpressey
08:33:28 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/quit | grep cpressey
08:33:28 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/quit | grep summary:
08:33:29 <HackEgo> summary: <cpressey> learn /quit
08:33:29 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <cpressey> learn /quit
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08:42:28 * oerjan wonders if boily and quintopia ever got that game going
09:01:42 <oerjan> boily was trying to download something from Steam which they were going to play
09:05:26 <shachaf> a hello so convoluted my /hilights don't catch it
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11:23:08 <FreeFull> Any time I get highlighted in here
11:23:13 <FreeFull> It's because someone did hg log
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11:26:09 <Jafet> Better change your name, and maybe burn your fingerprints off.
11:28:01 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
11:29:40 <Jafet> `culprits bin/culprits
11:29:41 <HackEgo> tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
11:30:10 <Jafet> `unicode zero width space
11:30:49 <Jafet> I only needed one, but anyway
11:31:24 <fowl> Thats a hello hand i think
11:35:45 <HackEgo> U+1F4A9 PILE OF POO \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 a9 UTF-16BE: d83ddca9 Decimal: 💩 \ 💩 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
11:46:10 <Jafet> `` sed -i -e 's,$, | sed "s/\\([][{}\\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\\\\`-]\\)\\([][{}\\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\\\\`-]\\+\\)/\\1\\2/g",' bin/culprits
11:46:20 <Jafet> `culprits bin/culprits
11:46:22 <HackEgo> Jafet tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
11:51:53 <HackEgo> U+1F44B WAVING HAND SIGN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 8b UTF-16BE: d83ddc4b Decimal: 👋 \ 👋 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
11:52:10 <Jafet> Bet that's going to be animated in the next unicode standard
11:58:16 <FireFly> I think bin/culprits used to use ZWSP, but shachaf complained about non-ASCII characters
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12:14:30 <Jafet> "These data support the contention that crickets contain quantities of many nutrients that are essential to humans and show that the insect represents a commercially feasible source of food for human populations."
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12:30:58 <HackEgo> Jafet oerjan oerjan oren oerjan shachaf oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan boily int-e shachaf shachaf int-e int-e Sgeo_ Sgeo_ Sgeo_ Sgeo_ Sgeo_ Sgeo_ oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oren oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Taneb
12:36:54 <b_jonas> `` culprits . | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tr -s \\n\
12:36:57 <HackEgo> 1 Aftran \ 1 ais523unfoog \ 1 Bicyclidine \ 1 Bike_ \ 1 CallForJudgement \ 1 cuttlefish \ 1 dalias \ 1 dbelange \ 1 Eldis4 \ 1 estin \ 1 |evilliopttic_PA \ 1 fungot \ 1 hiato \ 1 Koen_ \ 1 lambdabot \ 1 mrout \ 1 NihilistDandy \ 1 nitia \ 1 nvd \ 1 o
12:37:16 <b_jonas> `` culprits . | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -n | tr -s \\n\ \
12:37:18 <HackEgo> 1 Aftran 1 ais523unfoog 1 Bicyclidine 1 Bike_ 1 CallForJudgement 1 cuttlefish 1 dalias 1 dbelange 1 Eldis4 1 estin 1 |evilliopttic_PA 1 fungot 1 hiato 1 Koen_ 1 lambdabot 1 mrout 1 NihilistDandy 1 nitia 1 nvd 1 oonbotti 1 orin 1 PiRSquared17 1 puritania
12:37:24 <b_jonas> `` culprits . | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\n\ \
12:37:27 <HackEgo> 1446 oerjan 614 elliott 520 shachaf 183 boily 177 GreyKnight 172 Jafet 165 kmc 157 fizzie 138 Roujo 132 Taneb 120 ais523 101 mroman_ 98 Bike 92 nortti 90 nooodl 85 Phantom_Hoover 77 int-e 67 Sgeo 64 mrhmouse 63 coppro 60 olsner 58 FireFly 56 mroman 54 h
12:41:18 <b_jonas> `` o=bin/culprits-c && echo $'#!/bin/sh\n''culprits "$@" | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\n\ \ ' > "$o" && chmod a+x "$o"
12:41:35 <HackEgo> 1446 oerjan 614 elliott 520 shachaf 183 boily 177 GreyKnight 172 Jafet 165 kmc 157 fizzie 138 Roujo 132 Taneb 120 ais523 101 mroman_ 98 Bike 92 nortti 90 nooodl 85 Phantom_Hoover 77 int-e 67 Sgeo 64 mrhmouse 63 coppro 60 olsner 58 FireFly 56 mroman 54 h
12:41:43 <HackEgo> 286 oerjan 175 shachaf 104 Jafet 97 elliott 80 fizzie 61 Roujo 38 kmc 37 nooodl 33 nortti 29 int-e 29 FireFly 28 c00kiemon5ter 26 mrhmouse 26 ion 25 boily 23 ais523 22 Taneb 22 mroman_ 20 GreyKnight 20 Bike 19 Sgeo 19 olsner 19 mroman 19 b_jonas 15 z
12:41:48 <HackEgo> 492 oerjan 170 shachaf 103 boily 55 elliott 50 Taneb 38 GreyKnight 32 mroman 31 mroman_ 28 Phantom_Hoover 28 int-e 27 Roujo 18 Bike 17 ZombieCheney 16 tswett 16 olsner 16 FreeFull 15 Jafet 12 zzo38 12 zui438s 12 JWinslow23 12 Gregor 11 nortti 10 fizzie 1
12:48:41 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs | sed "s/\([][{}\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\`-]\)\([][{}\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\`-]\+\)/\1\2/g"
12:50:45 <Jafet> `` hg log --removed . | grep summary: | sed -n '/`revert/{n;p;}' | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs | sed "s/\([][{}\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\`-]\)\([][{}\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\`-]\+\)/\1\2/g" | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\n\ \
12:51:25 <Jafet> `` hg log --removed . | grep summary: | sed -n '/> revert/{n;p;}' | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs | sed "s/\([][{}\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\`-]\)\([][{}\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\`-]\+\)/\1\2/g" | tr \ \\n | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | tr -s \\n\ \
12:51:27 <HackEgo> 87 oerjan 56 shachaf 24 elliott 8 Jafet 7 int-e 6 tswett 6 monqy 5 boily 5 ais523 4 Roujo 4 Phantom_Hoover 4 FreeFull 4 coppro 3 Taneb 3 Sgeo 3 FireFly 3 Bike 2 ZombieCheney 2 ranc 2 nortti 2 izabera 2 hagb4rd 2 Gregor 2 fizzie 1 zzo38 1 Zomie
12:55:17 <HackEgo> U+000F <control> \ UTF-8: 0f UTF-16BE: 000f Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
12:56:01 <Jafet> `` echo -e 'a\x0fb'
12:56:30 <Jafet> It disappears in my client. Spooky.
12:57:14 <Jafet> `revert bin/culprits
12:57:14 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision 'bin/culprits'!
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13:00:54 <Jafet> `` echo -E 'hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '\''{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'\'' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs' > bin/culprits && chmod +x bin/culprits
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14:45:41 <oren> My dad says he has eaten locusts with honey when he was in Africa.
14:46:46 <oren> My favorite control character is ENQ
14:47:18 <oren> also known as u+000E
14:50:16 <HackEgo> U+0045 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER E \ UTF-8: 45 UTF-16BE: 0045 Decimal: E \ E (e) \ Lowercase: U+0065 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+004E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER N \ UTF-8: 4e UTF-16BE: 004e Decimal: N \ N (n) \ Lowercase: U+006E \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0051 LATIN C
14:50:54 <oren> `multicode U+0E
14:50:55 <HackEgo> U+000E <control> \ UTF-8: 0e UTF-16BE: 000e Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: BN (Boundary Neutral)
14:51:49 <oren> fungot, which control character do you like best?
14:51:50 <fungot> oren: when the rules except when those duties involve acting as the rolebearer for that office.
14:55:09 <boily> helloren. locusts are quite tasty.
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15:01:01 <HackEgo> U+1F5FE SILHOUETTE OF JAPAN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 97 be UTF-16BE: d83dddfe Decimal: 🗾 \ 🗾 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
15:01:32 <HackEgo> U+2668 HOT SPRINGS \ UTF-8: e2 99 a8 UTF-16BE: 2668 Decimal: ♨ \ ♨ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
15:01:48 <fowl> Looks like javas logo
15:02:29 <fowl> For me its three red squiggles out of a red circle
15:03:05 <Jafet> (http://projects.spring.io/spring-framework)
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15:04:34 <HackEgo> U+1F4A0 DIAMOND SHAPE WITH A DOT INSIDE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 a0 UTF-16BE: d83ddca0 Decimal: 💠 \ 💠 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
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15:17:13 <boily> hm. only some of these characters display properly. http://imgur.com/GwylgyH
15:17:21 <boily> (and by some, there's only one.)
15:19:01 <Taneb> boily, same for me
15:19:14 <Taneb> Actually I think we're using the same font
15:20:25 <boily> I'm using the powerline-patched version of Liberation Mono.
15:20:57 <oren> I can see most of those characters because I have a bunch of japanese fonts installed.
15:21:15 <oren> I don't see the one with a diamond
15:21:31 <fowl> I have ubuntu fonts on my pc and it shows everything
15:21:44 <fowl> All emojis at least
15:23:08 <boily> font management involves vantablack-grade dark magic.
15:23:08 <Jafet> So, how many other national maps are in unicode
15:24:28 <fowl> I actually thought that was a tear in space time but looking closer it does kind of look like the japanese islands
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15:25:14 <fowl> `multicode 🌎🌏🌍
15:25:15 <HackEgo> U+1F30E EARTH GLOBE AMERICAS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8e UTF-16BE: d83cdf0e Decimal: 🌎 \ 🌎 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30F EARTH GLOBE ASIA-AUSTRALIA \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8f UTF-16BE: d83cdf0f Decimal: 🌏 \ 🌏 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30D EARTH GLOBE EU
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16:12:50 <HackEgo> piet/Piet is a really colorful programming language.
16:14:19 <HackEgo> phantom__hoover/Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is.
16:14:25 <HackEgo> caps lock/CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
16:15:15 <boily> there was some deep meaning somewhere behind the ramen entry...
16:15:37 <boily> speaking of ramens, I'm hungry.
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16:20:43 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details./See `? for further details for futher details.
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19:09:16 <lambdabot> CYUL 121900Z 22012KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 28/21 A2994 RMK SC1CI1 SC TR CU EMBD SLP138 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
19:09:44 <boily> shoo! go away, you moistening TR CU! my laundry needs to dry hth!
19:11:47 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
19:11:59 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: monoids: not found
19:12:03 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
19:12:23 <boily> coppro: I can't, there's no dryer outlet in my apartment.
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19:12:49 <HackEgo> slist/Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
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19:36:52 * pikhq is now in the Bay Area.
19:38:31 <boily> pikhelloq. temporarily or permanently?
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19:39:09 <pikhq> Current location: temporary (about the next month). In Bay Area: permanently.
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19:47:19 <lambdabot> CYVR 121928Z 10009KT 12SM SCT018 BKN030 OVC100 19/15 A3002 RMK CU3SC3AC2 SLP167 DENSITY ALT 300FT
19:49:15 <lambdabot> CYYZ 121900Z 15009KT 120V200 15SM FEW050 FEW160 BKN250 OVC280 28/15 A3001 RMK SC1AC1CI4CC2 SLP159 DENSITY ALT 2000FT
19:49:41 <lambdabot> CYOW 121900Z 27006KT 160V290 15SM FEW040 SCT180 SCT220 30/19 A2997 RMK CU2AC1CI1 SLP147 DENSITY ALT 2100FT
19:49:59 <lambdabot> CYKF 121900Z AUTO 24004KT 190V270 9SM OVC050 27/16 A3002 RMK SLP164 DENSITY ALT 2500FT
19:51:27 <boily> ah, "Region of Waterloo".
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20:54:25 <fowl> Im not going to ask for the thousanth time what metar is
20:54:43 <fowl> I want to though
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20:58:35 <fizzie> MEteorological Terminal Aviation Routine (Weather Report), which looks like a string of words randomly strung together.
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20:59:22 <fizzie> (That seems to be the most popular expansion, anyway.)
20:59:44 <lambdabot> EGLL 122050Z 22008KT 9999 FEW020 18/16 Q1017 NOSIG
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21:04:14 <ais523> I'm more interested in how to discover what the four-letter codes are (and what the actual report means)
21:05:39 <boily> fellowl. don't resist, METARs are good for you.
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21:06:12 <boily> ais523: the four letter codes at the beginning are ICAO airport codes.
21:07:04 <ais523> @tell oerjan well system F type inference is known undecidable, so it wouldn't surprise me if the type system were TC; also even in the absence of recursion, simply-typed lambda calculus + imperative constants (variables, while loops, etc.) gives you undecidable equivalence in the presence of free variables
21:07:52 <boily> then it's <day of Month><hour><minutes>Z, with UTC time. the next group is <direction of wind (3 digits)><force of wind (two digits)>[G<gusts (two digits)>]KT, with force of wind in knots.
21:08:29 <boily> after that, it gets a little bit funky. the only common group between all national standards is <temperature>/<dew point> in celsius.
21:08:34 <fizzie> Sometimes the direction is VaRiaBle (VRB).
21:09:19 <lambdabot> EGBB 122050Z 31007KT 9999 SCT036 19/10 Q1015
21:09:21 <boily> cloud coverage is pretty much the same the world over, but Canadian METARs add in cloud types.
21:09:22 <ais523> looks like that's my local one
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21:10:11 <ais523> or, well, Birmingham Airport and the NEC basically form a region of their own
21:10:19 <boily> ais523: for you, 9999 means "nothing to signal about visibility", there are SCaTtered clouds at 3600', it's 19°C outside and air pressure is 101,5 kPa.
21:10:20 <ais523> they're not that close to the heavily populated areas of Birmingham
21:10:39 <boily> (can't remember if the Q group is airfield or sea level pressure.)
21:11:16 <boily> (ah, Qxxxx is QNH, therefore sea level.)
21:11:21 <lambdabot> KOAK 122053Z 27014KT 10SM FEW015 BKN250 24/12 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP175 T02390122 58000
21:11:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoAPI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43464&oldid=41868 * 70.190.164.6 * (+79) /* External resources */ fixed my site
21:11:50 <ais523> boily: wouldn't make too much difference here, Birmingham isn't particularly high-lying (although it contains tons of small hills; there's a carpark in the city centre where you can go in at ground level, go up 8 floors, then after using a series of bridges come out at ground level)
21:12:06 <ais523> err, maybe only 7 floors actually, not sure whether the bottom floor is numbered 0 or 1
21:12:36 <ais523> hmm, that IP has no idea how links work in MediaWiki
21:12:38 <lambdabot> CYUL 122100Z 24011KT 15SM FEW040 FEW240 30/20 A2991 RMK CU1CI1 CU TR CI TR SLP128 DENSITY ALT 1800FT
21:12:44 <ais523> how long shall we take for them to notice before fixing it?
21:13:43 <lambdabot> EFHK 122050Z 32006KT 9999 FEW035 11/09 Q1008 NOSIG
21:13:52 <fizzie> Good old Finnish summer going on there.
21:13:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoAPI]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43465&oldid=43464 * 70.190.164.6 * (-2) trying that again
21:14:18 <ais523> fizzie: I thought 19/10 was humid, but 11/09 seems much worse
21:14:32 <fizzie> Admittedly it's past midnight.
21:15:12 <fizzie> 81% relative humidity, says my normal weather website.
21:15:59 <lambdabot> LOWI 122050Z 16005KT 120V190 9999 BKN075 FEW075CB 25/11 Q1018 NOSIG
21:16:25 <fizzie> ais523: Heathrow had 18/16.
21:19:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43466&oldid=43408 * 70.190.164.6 * (+80) fixed my site
21:20:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43467&oldid=43466 * 70.190.164.6 * (+4)
21:21:09 <int-e> `somebody needs to learn about the preview option
21:21:10 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: somebody: not found
21:21:55 <fizzie> They seem to have gotten the link syntax, but I'm not sure why they didn't remove the old link that time.
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21:40:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Linguine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43468&oldid=13253 * 70.190.164.6 * (+3) fixed my site
21:44:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Boolfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43469&oldid=43451 * 70.190.164.6 * (+17) /* See also */ add BitChanger
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21:51:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43470&oldid=43467 * 70.190.164.6 * (+83) include link to programs
21:52:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Linguine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43471&oldid=43468 * 70.190.164.6 * (-9)
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23:08:02 <lambdabot> CYUL 122300Z 26009KT 15SM FEW040 BKN240 28/20 A2991 RMK CU1CI6 CU TR CU E SLP127 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
23:08:28 <boily> ha ha ha, you won't get me you obnoxious CU! fphptptptptptp :P
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02:09:39 <coppro> http://lhartikk.github.io/ArnoldC/
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03:00:44 <Sgeo_> Get Your Ass To Mars https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cfu0hpHbIu8
03:17:24 <Sgeo_> https://www.reddit.com/r/janusVR/comments/3clilu/release_4216_new_selectable_ui_sounds_bugfix/ct0s5ne?context=3
03:17:28 <Sgeo_> Well this is a good sign
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03:56:12 <zzo38> I wrote a program to compress MegaZeux boards. Sometimes it works better than DEFLATE, sometimes not. But it almost always results in much better compression with my program is combined with DEFLATE; this results in approx. 1/4 of the original size (the original already having some RLE compression in it).
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04:02:08 <izabera> i'm reading about brainfuck optimizations and [>] is optimized with a memchr(), why not simply p += strlen(p) ?
04:03:07 <zzo38> izabera: I have used things like that too in various program, but, that depend that such a statement will be optimized by the computer (which therefore has to know what "strlen" means, possibly due to inlining)
04:04:52 <zzo38> The most effective way to implement a C code like p += strlen(p); would be more like the brainfuck code [>]
04:05:10 <ais523> izabera: the difference is that strlen isn't allowed to read past the '\0'
04:05:16 <ais523> which limits the optimizations you can do
04:05:38 <ais523> memchr is allowed to read anywhere in the memory space you give it
04:05:55 <ais523> so what it can do is, it can read four or eight or 128 bytes at a time
04:06:12 <ais523> then look for the zeroes within them arithmetically (for the small amounts) or via vector operations (for the large amoutns)
04:06:28 <ais523> this doesn't really help much on small distances but can be useful for the large ones
04:07:08 <izabera> i think all of this also applies to strlen()
04:07:46 <zzo38> If the size of the memory is known and it is not volatile, then strlen should be allowed to read as much as they want to read at once.
04:07:59 <ais523> you can't read past the terminating '\0' because the size of the memory isn't known
04:08:00 <izabera> what you're thinking about is the naive strlen that scans the string a byte at a time
04:08:20 <ais523> and you might have memory you aren't allowed to read just after the '\0'
04:08:46 <ais523> (note that many libcs work around this by forcing memory blocks to be readable as a multiple of, say, 512 bytes, so that they know they can safely overread up to the next multiple of 512)
04:09:09 <zzo38> Yes, that is true if the optimizer does not know, unless the allocation and operating system is define to know the alignment of readable memory
04:12:39 <ais523> it looks like glibc strlen reads 4 bytes at a time: http://www.stdlib.net/~colmmacc/strlen.c.html
04:12:54 <ais523> a vectorised strlen would probably beat that for long strings, but lose on short ones
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05:46:15 <lambdabot> ais523 said 8h 39m 11s ago: well system F type inference is known undecidable, so it wouldn't surprise me if the type system were TC; also even in the absence of recursion, simply-typed lambda calculus + imperative constants (variables, while loops, etc.) gives you undecidable equivalence in the presence of free variables
05:46:49 <oerjan> ais523: System F is not TC, evaluation is terminating
05:46:55 <ais523> oerjan: or to put things another way, none of this really came as a surprise to me because my thesis was basically on the subject
05:46:57 <ais523> and that's not what I said
05:47:06 <ais523> system F /inference/ is undecidable, and thus probably TC
05:47:27 <oerjan> since that's usually how things are proved undecidable
05:47:33 <ais523> (undecidable doesn't necessarily imply TC, but it certainly hints heavily about it)
05:47:53 <ais523> the proof may well go via TCness; it's a reduction to a similar problem I don't really understand
05:49:56 <oerjan> ais523: actually what i was really trying to say was that even it looks like primitive recursion, it might be much more powerful if there are higher-order functions.
05:50:36 <ais523> there's reason to believe it's decidable in /this/ case, mostly because if it wasn't that'd probably allow us to construct an infinite loop in simply-typed lambda calculus
05:50:45 <ais523> (probably because the details of the construction haven't been worked out, but they seem very likely)
05:51:26 <ais523> whereas I think you can do primitive recursion in simply-typed lambda calculus via using Church numerals as for loops
05:52:03 <oerjan> hm that sounds pretty obvious
05:52:47 <oerjan> as long as the pieces are well-typed
05:53:01 <ais523> right, the pieces being well-typed is the only non-obvious bit
05:53:04 <ais523> but it's an awkward one
05:55:07 <ais523> I have a suspicion that you can just nest the function types one more level for each loop you use
05:55:16 <ais523> but this is purely based on looking at types in a debugger, not on any actual reasoning
05:57:23 <oerjan> i think the awkward bit might be if two church numerals were forced to be of different type, because of something like one is used as an argument to the other, but also forced to be used at the same type in another spot
05:57:58 <ais523> (this sort of thing happening is the key observation in my thesis)
05:59:13 <oerjan> otoh if you have a church numeral of type ((a -> a) -> (a -> a)), you can probably _construct_ the same church numeral of type a -> a from it
06:00:53 <oerjan> so perhaps you can substitute both church numerals up to a common type, from which all needed simpler types can be constructed
06:01:14 <ais523> that normally doesn't work either, but it does work at first order
06:01:28 <ais523> which is what I think the primitive recursive functions we're trying to implement are
06:03:43 <ais523> the problem is that you can have a type that really wants to be polymorphic, of shape (a -> a), but if you fix any given type for a you can make the return value more general or the argument more specific, but you can't make them both more general or more specific at the same time
06:03:57 <ais523> i.e. you can't maintain a "these two things should be the same" situation
06:07:01 <oerjan> "Schwichtenberg showed in 1976 that in \lambda^\to exactly the extended polynomials are representable as functions over Church numerals; these are roughly the polynomials closed up under a conditional operator."
06:07:35 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simply_typed_lambda_calculus#Important_results
06:08:33 <oerjan> but that's a bit different
06:09:22 <oerjan> since they all have type (o -> o) -> (o -> o)
06:09:56 <oerjan> while exponentials are possible with nested types
06:10:17 <ais523> yes, it's the exponentials that are causing problems here
06:10:27 <ais523> because it means that type inference algos have to be able to blow up hyperexponentially
06:10:33 <ais523> which the obvious algorithms don't, really
06:11:38 <oerjan> can you construct each level of a^a^... ackermann? maybe that's enough to show you can do every PR function by then using the result in a big loop
06:12:57 <oerjan> i.e. a fixed number of knuth arrows
06:13:06 <Jafet> From http://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/23535/0000494.pdf: STLC is decidable in E^4 time but not in E^3
06:13:27 <Jafet> Note that PR = \Union_k E^k
06:13:49 <ais523> the ackermann function is something like a supremum of primiive recursive functions, right?
06:13:59 <oerjan> ais523: yeah that's what i was thinking
06:14:37 <oerjan> hm Jafet's observation should mean it breaks down at 3 or 4 arrows
06:16:00 <oerjan> perhaps to do exponentiation, you _must_ have different types for the arguments, which breaks down if you try to iterate them.
06:16:29 <ais523> so I guess the next challenge is to construct an STLC program that takes a Church numeral as argument, and iterates a given function four-arrow-many times of that Church numeral
06:16:51 <oerjan> hm maybe just two arrow
06:17:34 <ais523> two arrows is tetration, right?
06:17:34 <oerjan> if that E-notation starts at increment or the like, E^3 might be exponentiation
06:17:41 <Jafet> If you can read that paper, you might be able to use its gadgets for E^3
06:17:50 <oerjan> so my current guess is you cannot do tetration
06:18:11 * oerjan leaves ais523 to read the paper
06:18:14 <ais523> actually I can't think of an obvious way to tetrate with Church numerals and no loop
06:22:51 <oerjan> "elementary" means essentially using arithmetic and exponentiation, no?
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06:23:19 <izabera> http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=54479 is this NP?
06:24:04 <oerjan> actually elementary is not a very discrete concept, but it's probably that range of growth
06:24:13 <ais523> the normal meaning is "not using calculus" but I don't think that's the intended meaning here
06:24:42 <oerjan> ais523: well exponentials are the fastest growest of the building blocks allowed
06:25:17 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ELEMENTARY
06:25:18 <ais523> izabera: it depends a lot on your definition; you can verify in O(n) time where n is the /answer/ (i.e. how long it takes)
06:25:19 <oerjan> there are some asymptotes, but avoiding them
06:25:32 <ais523> that said, loops are clearly useless in that langauge
06:26:03 <ais523> so it's O(n) in the length of the question too
06:26:04 <izabera> ais523: you have to verify that it's the quickest way
06:26:28 <ais523> izabera: actually I'm thinking of something more like reducing this to an existing NP-complete problem
06:26:36 <ais523> something like bin-packing, perhaps
06:27:02 <oerjan> Jafet: ah that's about as i thought
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06:29:21 <oerjan> izabera: i think this is P^NP stuff, you need to solve an NP problem to find the answer, and the corresponding co-NP problem to show there's no faster one
06:29:22 <ais523> how's beta-conversion defined here? you can beta-reduce both terms in arbitrary ways to try to make them the same?
06:30:03 <oerjan> izabera: which is often colloquially lumped in with NP-complete, e.g. the traveling salesman problem
06:30:14 <oerjan> but technically is not the same
06:31:18 <oerjan> s/to find the answer/to check the answer/
06:31:46 <Jafet> It seems to encode a decision procedure in STLC, so beta-conversion just computes the result (which will be true or false)
06:32:04 <oerjan> or well, we still haven't proved the "-complete" part.
06:33:18 <Jafet> (That's for the E^3 lower bound, not for the E^4 upper bound)
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06:41:17 <oerjan> ais523: hm wait, that ([0 -> 0/0]a_n)a_1 example on page 75 makes me wonder
06:41:29 <oerjan> that's clearly a building block for tetration
06:41:56 <oerjan> and the types do _not_ increase as n does.
06:43:44 <oerjan> 0 -> 0 isn't a type there
06:43:56 <mroman_> any book recommendation about game theory?
06:44:40 <Jafet> oerjan: each of those a_n has a different type, so the tetration is bounded
06:44:47 <oerjan> ais523: oh i'm misreading, that notation means precisely that the types _are_ growing
06:44:57 <ais523> ah right, that makes more sense at least
06:45:00 <ais523> I was thinking, if you were right
06:45:05 <Jafet> I think [0->0/0] means replacing 0 by 0->0
06:45:14 <ais523> then you'd probably be able to surpass the E^4 bound
06:45:15 <oerjan> Jafet: yeah just realized that
06:48:16 <Jafet> Oddly enough, this causes the types to have exponential size
06:48:33 <Jafet> (which is the maximum for a Hindley-Milner type system)
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06:49:33 <oerjan> ais523: "By analyzing the normal form algorithm [...] it is easy to see that the problem can be solved in E^4 time" this might mean that it's easier to prove that you cannot go _higher_ than tetration.
06:50:08 <ais523> well, given how cited that paper is
06:50:15 <ais523> someone has probably determined the exact boundary by now
06:50:30 <ais523> (when a paper has over 100 citations, either it's very influential, or everyone has been copying citation without reading it; possibly both)
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06:57:09 <oerjan> <Jafet> `unicode zero width space <-- i don't think FreeFull's problem was with `culprits, but with direct use of hg log
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06:57:57 <oerjan> which we've started to do whenever we want to see _what_ was changed rather than just by who
06:58:44 <Jafet> `` culprits bin/culprits | awk '{print $1}'
06:59:06 <Jafet> Apparently, my client discards the control character, so I didn't know it existed
06:59:35 <oerjan> well surely you noted it in the culprits code before you changed it
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07:00:07 <Jafet> What's this, reading code before patching it?
07:00:11 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
07:00:56 <oerjan> `culprits bin/culprits
07:00:58 <HackEgo> Jafet Jafet tswett tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
07:03:24 <ais523> anyone who happens to have php5 installed via a Linuxy package manager (which shows what it's updating, if you ask): /wow/ a lot of security bugs are being fixed in this update
07:03:58 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/culprits | grep summary:
07:04:09 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/culprits | grep summary:
07:04:11 <HackEgo> summary: <Jafet> ` echo -E \'hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk \'\\\'\'{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}\'\\\'\' | sed "s/.$/\\x0F&/" | xargs\' > bin/culprits && chmod +x bin/culprits \ summary: <Jafet> ` sed -i -e \'s,$, | sed "s/\\\\([][{}\\\\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\\\\\\\\\\`-]\\\\)\\\\([][{}\\\\^a-zA-Z0-9_|\\\\\\\\\\\\`-]\\\\+\\\\)/\\\
07:04:33 <shachaf> this is too confusing tdnh
07:04:47 <Jafet> ais523: 14 drops in the ocean
07:04:51 <b_jonas> I don't do php, and I don't even have it installed.
07:05:10 <ais523> I like having a bunch of interps around
07:05:26 <ais523> on here, PHP doesn't run unless I'm running it manually, which means the attack surface is pretty small
07:05:45 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, me to, but I also think that you definitely can't do all four of perl, python, ruby, and php, so I choose to just not do php
07:05:58 <b_jonas> mind you, some golfers do code all four
07:06:04 <b_jonas> but I don't think that's a good idea
07:06:25 <oerjan> shachaf: i think he changed it back hth
07:06:37 <b_jonas> installing all four is no problem of course
07:06:42 <ais523> also that's a lot of backslashes
07:06:50 <b_jonas> only actually doing stuff with them
07:07:34 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:08:32 <ais523> Haskell can be just as magical-looking as Prolog sometimes
07:08:42 <ais523> btw, is there a Haskell string that evaluates to itself?
07:08:50 <ais523> perhaps using some other escape syntax
07:08:56 <ais523> I'm guessing not, most languages don't have one
07:09:04 <oerjan> ais523: i think some of them are hg itself escaping
07:09:04 <mroman_> clock golfs in almost any language on the planet .
07:09:09 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, that one above
07:09:15 <ais523> barring Perl/PHP-style barewords which is cheating
07:09:19 <ais523> b_jonas: finitely long, I mean
07:09:21 <mroman_> and he's usually the best in all of them.
07:09:27 <b_jonas> ais523: and you mean string literal?
07:09:40 <b_jonas> because just an expression would be easy
07:10:35 <oerjan> i don't think haskell string literals have anything that can make a string longer than the code
07:10:35 <Jafet> Every time you interpret a finite string literal in haskell, its number of backslashes decreases
07:11:34 <zzo38> At least it does not increase
07:12:02 <oerjan> zzo38: and if you include the "s, it must decrease
07:12:41 <zzo38> Yes, the number of character does always decrease
07:12:41 <b_jonas> as for escaping backslashes, I prefer "\"\x5c\"\x5cx5c\x5c\"\x5cx5cx5c\x5cx5c\x5c\"\x5cx5cx5cx5c\x5cx5cx5c\x5cx5c\x5c\"\x5cx5cx5cx5cx5c\x5cx5cx5cx5c\x5cx5cx5c\x5cx5c\x5c\"\x5cx5cx5cx5cx5cx5c...
07:12:47 <zzo38> The number of backslashes might not
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07:14:30 <oerjan> > id<>show$"id<>show$"
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07:15:05 <oerjan> > id<>show$"id<>show$" -- for ais523
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07:16:00 <Jafet> > text$ap(++)show"text$ap(++)show"
07:16:20 <oerjan> yeah that's the old one
07:16:36 <Jafet> Oh, are we /golfing/ quines now
07:17:17 <oerjan> > var$id<>show$"var$id<>show"
07:17:26 <b_jonas> Jafet: sure, people do that. I know a number of short non-empty ones in perl.
07:18:10 <b_jonas> we think the shortest non-empty non-cheating one is "print<< x2,$/\nprint<< x2,$/\n\n"
07:18:22 <oerjan> var is better for two reasons (1) it's shorter (2) it works with infinite strings
07:18:37 <b_jonas> but that's among printing ones, not those that return a string or something
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07:19:42 <oerjan> text is from a pretty-printing library, and insists on knowing the length of the string for formatting
07:20:20 <Jafet> For some reason, I thought it had something to do with Text
07:20:25 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘BS.pack’ (imported from Data.ByteString)
07:21:15 <lambdabot> var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"var$"v...
07:21:24 <lambdabot> var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"var"...
07:22:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘[Char]’
07:22:21 <oerjan> hm i guess that's not proper syntax
07:22:55 <oerjan> > fix$var.("var++").show.show
07:22:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘String -> String’
07:22:57 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(.)’, namely ‘("var++")’
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07:23:38 <oerjan> > fix$var.("var++").show
07:23:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘String -> String’
07:23:39 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(.)’, namely ‘("var++")’
07:23:48 <b_jonas> now we just need an interpreter that can interpret infinite streams (I think that's impossible)
07:23:57 <oerjan> > fix$var.("var"++).show.show
07:23:58 <lambdabot> var"var\"var\\\"var\\\\\\\"var\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"var\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
07:24:06 <b_jonas> (it's probably possible for BF)
07:24:19 <Jafet> It's not, because of loops
07:25:04 <b_jonas> wait, do you just want a quine using var?
07:25:14 <b_jonas> I think I wrote one at some point, but I'm not sure I saved it
07:25:47 <oerjan> b_jonas: i already made one up there
07:25:59 <oerjan> this last thing was just for amusement
07:26:41 <b_jonas> I don't think I saved it, but I could write one from scratch probably (it would be a bit long)
07:27:21 <b_jonas> I experimented it when I wanted to put lambdabot and some other bot in a bot loop, but that turned out to be impossible for that combination
07:28:26 <ais523> huh, spambots pretending to be the IMF, and they don't mention Greece
07:28:41 <fowl> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y1GbBhu9hA
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08:01:46 <HackEgo> U+1F30D EARTH GLOBE EUROPE-AFRICA \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8d UTF-16BE: d83cdf0d Decimal: 🌍 \ 🌍 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
08:07:33 <ais523> how many differently rotated projections of the Earth does Unicode have?
08:07:42 <ais523> (I'm amused at the qualifier)
08:07:49 <mroman_> Is there one where australia is the center?
08:09:17 <oerjan> `` multicode 🌎🌏🌍 #from logs
08:09:18 <HackEgo> U+1F30E EARTH GLOBE AMERICAS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8e UTF-16BE: d83cdf0e Decimal: 🌎 \ 🌎 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30F EARTH GLOBE ASIA-AUSTRALIA \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8f UTF-16BE: d83cdf0f Decimal: 🌏 \ 🌏 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30D EARTH GLOBE EU
08:09:54 <oerjan> i was just looking at the logs, and checked the last one because it got cut off
08:10:50 <HackEgo> U+1F30D EARTH GLOBE EUROPE-AFRICA \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8d UTF-16BE: d83cdf0d Decimal: 🌍 \ 🌍 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30E EARTH GLOBE AMERICAS \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8e UTF-16BE: d83cdf0e Decimal: 🌎 \ 🌎 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30F EARTH GLOBE ASI
08:11:45 <oerjan> `` unicode EARTH GLOBE | tail -n +9
08:11:46 <HackEgo> 🌎 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F30F EARTH GLOBE ASIA-AUSTRALIA \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8c 8f UTF-16BE: d83cdf0f Decimal: 🌏 \ 🌏 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
08:12:09 <oerjan> they should add ARCTIC and ANTARCTICA
08:12:56 <b_jonas> oerjan: um, you know there's more possibilities than fit in unicode if you want to add all possible maps
08:13:24 <oerjan> b_jonas: these are globe maps
08:14:03 <oerjan> maybe they should also add ATLANTIC and PACIFIC
08:14:30 <b_jonas> oerjan: even just globe maps
08:14:45 <Jafet> This is so silly of the consortium. It would be so much simpler if we had combining characters for moving 1° by latitude and longitude
08:15:17 <oerjan> hm must have the name wrong
08:15:41 <b_jonas> Jafet: yeah, but make sure to choose a set of two or more combining characters that together efficiently generate a dense set in all possible maps
08:16:04 <oerjan> that's easy, just have 1 RADIAN and 1 DEGREE
08:16:05 <Jafet> @google dymaxion projection
08:16:06 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dymaxion_map
08:21:22 <oerjan> oh wait they need to be around different axes
08:21:53 <oerjan> hm and degrees divide a full rotation, maybe not so good
08:22:13 <oerjan> perhaps radian will work both ways, with the right axis choices
08:23:29 <oerjan> oh hm i think the character should represent something like golden ratio of the full rotation
08:23:57 <oerjan> that way you can efficiently do large rotations, but still divide as finely as you want
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09:39:51 <izabera> how do i translate this to c if my cells wrap around at 8 bit? [+>++<]
09:40:37 <izabera> p[1] += p[0] * 2; p[0] = 0 <- like this?
09:40:53 <izabera> so what's the difference between that and [->++<] ?
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09:41:24 <oerjan> a minus sign, i presume
09:41:57 <oerjan> also, you need to use unsigned 8bit type in C for that to work
09:42:21 <oerjan> otherwise it's undefined behavior when you wrap
09:43:03 <oerjan> actually i think it's your first which is wrong and should have the -
09:43:26 <izabera> ok the first one is -= and the latter is +=
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10:14:47 <|f`-`|f> also oerjan there are "real spherical angles"
10:17:51 <izabera> oerjan: [->++<] is p[1] += p[0] * 2; p[0] = 0 [->--<] is p[1] -= p[0] * 2; p[0] = 0
10:18:20 <izabera> so what are [+>++<] and [+>--<] ?
10:18:39 <oerjan> the same, in opposite order
10:19:02 <izabera> myname: my cells are unsigned chars
10:19:28 <oerjan> [+>++<] and [->--<] give the same result
10:20:13 <oerjan> because you are essentially adding a multiple of 256 somewhere, which doesn't matter
10:20:54 <|f`-`|f> What/s so pertinent about maps
10:21:17 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hth: not found
10:21:18 <oerjan> |f`-`|f: we were just discussing how many global map characters unicode should have
10:21:38 <oerjan> so it was suggest you'd have just one, and combining characters to rotate it
10:22:31 <oerjan> good point, they should clearly work on other chars too
10:22:40 <|f`-`|f> curious how you can efficiently pack the metacharacters and so on
10:22:54 <oerjan> i don't think that was considered.
10:23:06 <|f`-`|f> considering how many duplications I've seen
10:24:04 <|f`-`|f> For multilingual things, it'd probably be better to have partial tables, such that all ligments are here, but here, have a table that compiles them together for a specific language
10:24:26 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn what v thx rc pl let id ghc do bf @ ? .
10:24:37 <|f`-`|f> the actual place being irrelevant
10:25:32 <oerjan> ?bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>.
10:25:45 <|f`-`|f> (as far as certainl languages, you just create a simple subdomain interpreter that creates a nicely organised typeset)
10:26:18 <oerjan> |f`-`|f: note that one of the purposes of unicode is to be able to combine languages in one document
10:26:58 <|f`-`|f> Why not have the dense data included?
10:27:46 <oerjan> i can just imagine IRC messages trying to include a whole language database whenever you try to quote something foreign...
10:27:54 <|f`-`|f> Unicode Base would be no rules, Unicode <Lang> would be subdomain
10:28:07 <oerjan> i'm sure that should fit nicely within 510 bytes
10:28:22 <|f`-`|f> Unicode Lang would formt in Unicode Base
10:28:35 <|f`-`|f> So reading would be simple
10:28:40 <|f`-`|f> Writing would be a bit more complicated
10:30:15 <|f`-`|f> just install the writeLang interpretter so you don't need to write raw unicode
10:31:25 <oerjan> i don't precisely care about this
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10:31:48 <|f`-`|f> it'd get around the 510 byte issue
10:32:02 <Jafet> Aren't these called charsets?
10:32:58 <|f`-`|f> Monolithic charset, but you don't need to screw around chaining the metacharacters to build your language's letters
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10:33:48 <|f`-`|f> no need to install charsets to copy foreign characters
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10:34:54 <ais523> are you thinking of something like what LaTeX does?
10:38:39 <ais523> that has caused so many hard-to-figure-out errors
10:38:56 <ais523> because it turns out that copy-and-pasting in LyX had placed language change codes in the middle of raw LaTeX that I was using for something else
10:39:21 <ais523> after a while, my immediate reaction upon seeing weird errors was to reformat the entire relevant text as "Language: Reset"
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10:46:00 <|f`-`|f> Could help with better error handling, there is probably a lot of breathing room for what amounts to a system that does keybind macros
10:46:51 <|f`-`|f> then there's the multi-byte system that japan uses which is context-based
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12:11:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hello world program in esoteric languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43472&oldid=42644 * 87.78.59.131 * (+90) added ArnoldC
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13:57:00 <mroman_> I'm gonna make an esolang called fnord.
13:59:44 <Jafet> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Dot?
14:00:47 <mroman_> that was to emphasize my irony
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16:21:11 <izabera> my interpreter completed mandelbrot.b for the first time http://arin.ga/fIQ2zG/raw \o/
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16:47:51 <rdococ> my favourite programming language is Powerpoint
16:50:11 <Slereah__> One of my early job was programming on Office
17:00:56 <rdococ> Powerpoint, without VBA, is one of the best programming languages ever - welcome to finite state automaton, cleansed and polished with the power of eye cand
17:04:01 <rdococ> I'm bored, I wanna make a programming language, any ideas?
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17:04:54 <zzo38> There is a lot of idea in esolang wiki, I made the list of ideas at first but now a lot of people do, therefore there is more stuff now than it was at first.
17:04:55 <_256Q> I haer this is the place to talk about eso lang?
17:05:13 <zzo38> What kind of question about esolang you would have?
17:05:17 <rdococ> zzo38: ik... I've taken a look before... I guess I'll look again
17:05:24 * _256Q settles down to lurk
17:05:46 <_256Q> zzo38 --> nah its just something I find really intresting
17:07:06 <rdococ> how about we create a program that could replace every other program, and then the compiler would compile everything to that program?
17:07:09 <zzo38> _256Q: Look at the wiki; also, this IRC is logged and we actually discuss all sort of various stuff regardless, but if you have question/comment about esoteric programming you can please post them on this IRC we can answer it (since that is the main purpose ofsuch IRC)
17:07:18 <rdococ> like, Soviet Script taken to the extreme where there's only one true program
17:07:30 <rdococ> but... that is boring.
17:07:53 <rdococ> "A language in which every valid piece of music (or maybe just for only piano, only violin, only voice, etc) compiles and runs without error (and does something). It would be more interesting if simpler (beginner) pieces were simpler programs, and more complex pieces (such as Rachmaninov) were more complex programs."
17:08:03 <rdococ> wait... am I spamming the chat? -.-
17:08:56 <zzo38> No I think it is OK for what you can write
17:10:54 <rdococ> I don't like any of these ideas -.-
17:12:31 <zzo38> Then make a better one
17:13:19 <rdococ> why do you think I'm looking for ideas?
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17:47:57 <zzo38> I read about putting a backdoor into "login" program by modifying the C compiler so that when it compiles itself it will compile the one to compile the login program with backdoors. There have been a few ideas of countering such attacks, but I have had a different idea even the first time I read it, which is to: Write a BASIC interpreter in C, and then write a C compiler (or even interpreter) in BASIC, and run the original C compiler using that (or
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18:15:33 <TieSoul> also, writing a C compiler in BASIC sounds... tedious, to say the least.
18:16:01 <zzo38> Yes, but, then you will have a C compiler in BASIC.
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18:18:03 <_256Q> could you not use a meta language to genirate a C compiler in basic?
18:18:18 <_256Q> or at least speed up the creation
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19:19:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43473&oldid=43470 * Rdebath * (+277)
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23:08:20 <HackEgo> _256Q: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:08:53 <_256Q> that is crazy colorfull, I love it
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23:33:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43474 * Phase * (+776) Jackass spec start
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00:21:30 <madbr> trying to prove that chess is turing complete (given a board with an infinitely repeating periodic portion)
00:22:03 <madbr> I have this as a "conveyor belt" to force the white king to move along a path:
00:22:09 <madbr> http://pastebin.com/V8fQu11y
00:22:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43475&oldid=43424 * Phase * (+14) /* Jackass */ I did that thang
00:22:34 <madbr> black has to check that white king every move or else he gets checkmated
00:24:04 <madbr> I also have to figure out how to do a wire crossing and a memory cell
00:24:45 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure having a side have more than one king is cheating
00:26:17 <madbr> I'm trying to figure out the easier version (with multiple checkmatable kings) first
00:26:21 <oerjan> there's some kind of proof that chess is something-big-complete with arbitrary finite boardsize, it might be possible to adapt that
00:27:51 <madbr> it's also possible that I might have to do some processing in the infinitely repeating section instead of just using it as an infinite tape
00:28:23 <madbr> mostly if processing requires something non-undoable like pawn movement (for instance if you keep the 50 move rule)
00:29:20 <Jafet> Generalised chess is supposedly EXPTIME-complete (on square boards)
00:29:29 <madbr> intuitively it has to be possible to build a turing machive out of this, if they figured out how to do it in the game of life...
00:29:34 <Jafet> Not sure what kind of generalisation it is
00:30:09 <madbr> if you invent new pieces it becomes too easy
00:30:29 <Jafet> The initial layout surely matters as well.
00:30:38 <madbr> so it's more a challenge of requiring as few extra rules as possible
00:30:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43476&oldid=43474 * Phase * (+329) more operations
00:31:13 <madbr> yeah basically the initial layout is the program
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00:38:24 <madbr> the reason for multikings is that otherwise it's really hard to keep rooks on the same line
00:49:46 <madbr> hmm, if you need non-undoable stuff like pawn movement or captures, you possibly need a 2d infinite grid instead of just a 1d infinite section
00:50:06 <madbr> to process along one dimension and store data along the other
00:52:05 <Jafet> How does a turing machine work in a competitive game, anyway
00:53:10 <Jafet> Do you fix white to play and win (or not lose) and then interpret the moves as output
00:56:25 * oerjan wonders if wikipedia has had an article as front page feature for a second time before
00:56:40 <Jafet> There's the malbolge version, I guess: the programmer gives a position, then the interpreter chooses an arbitrary optimal move for each side
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00:56:49 <madbr> not exactly sure but if the white player can force a win, the machine halts
00:56:54 <Jafet> So e.g. to make a truth machine, the programmer needs to set up a forced draw
00:57:13 <madbr> actually you can probably get a single binary output
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00:57:40 <madbr> can the white player force a win?
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00:58:00 <madbr> or can the black player force a win?
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00:59:49 <Jafet> Or designate some pieces as outputs, so any move of those pieces outputs a white or black bit
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01:01:51 <madbr> or you can designate some paths
01:02:11 <madbr> and if the king moves on the left path, outputs 1, if it moves on the right path, outputs 0
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01:02:56 <madbr> but for turing completeness I think even only halt vs non-halt is sufficient
01:03:29 <madbr> since you can put in the input program which of the output bits you want to output
01:03:35 <madbr> and make a multibit output
01:04:02 <madbr> and then in the input program you also have a bit that says if you're testing the current output bit for 0 or 1
01:04:12 <madbr> and if it matches, halt, if it doesn't match, loop
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01:04:48 <madbr> and then you race both versions against each other and the one that halts first gives you the answer
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01:18:43 <izabera> what do you do when you add a ton of code that's supposed to replace a different ton of code but when you do it everything breaks?
01:23:01 <Jafet> Such is the capricious nature of code.
01:25:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43477&oldid=43476 * Phase * (+280) /* Operation List */ More operations
01:29:20 <Jafet> There should be apprenticeships for code: young, agile code can learn a lot by working under mature code (perhaps even a "master")
01:30:17 <madbr> I guess it's a question of size
01:30:24 <madbr> maybe your problem is big
01:30:43 <madbr> and the solution is going to be messy no matter what
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02:29:11 <oren> You can apparently register a domain name in the cook islands with a .co. to get .co.ck at the end of your domain name
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02:40:09 <oren> If your code is modular, perhaps you can run both solutions, and log when the new code
02:40:22 <oren> gives an answer different from the old
02:42:05 * oerjan *so* tempted to do a "you should have used haskell" joke
02:43:26 <oerjan> its strong flexible typing makes refactoring unusually painless hth
02:43:59 <oerjan> the disadvantage is you have to learn to use it first, which is not as painless.
02:44:40 <izabera> my refactoring will be painless as soon as i fix the bug
02:44:55 <oerjan> (just use a year or three to learn haskell, and afterward refactoring will be painless.)
02:45:48 <oerjan> well type system and purity / referential transparency
02:46:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wire-crossing problem]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43478&oldid=20511 * 174.109.246.19 * (+1125) /* Possible proof of planarity turing completeness? */ new section
02:46:59 <izabera> typeless languages have their merits
02:47:11 <oerjan> yes, but not for refactoring.
02:52:31 <izabera> still wondering what types have to do with refactoring
02:53:09 <oerjan> they make it likely that the compiler will complain if you move something to the wrong spot
02:55:04 <oerjan> note that in haskell you don't just type ordinary values, but also actions
02:55:21 <izabera> i'm the queen of refactoring
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03:15:59 <Sgeo_> oerjan, how about Factor? It lets you factor into smaller pieces without as much worry about types
03:16:15 <Sgeo_> Although changing things outright could still be an issue
03:21:34 <oerjan> well i don't really know factor, but concatenative with dynamic types doesn't immediately encourage me
03:22:53 <oren> why are .co.uk domains so cheap?
03:25:04 <oerjan> ooh they actually changed the /r/haskell CSS, just as i was reloading the tab about it to finish reading it...
03:28:38 <zzo38> Due to the input syntax you will not necessarily get perfect idempotency for free with RDF, although depending on what needs to be done, in some cases the schema can be defined so that it does not matter; you can also easily avoid it in the input files in the cases where it does matter, for example by using absolute URIs based on a canonical name or whatever.
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04:00:49 <oren> there. no more using stupid webhosting sites. from now on I'll just upload things to my own website
04:01:30 <izabera> http://arin.ga/X3Sh9D/raw at least one of these is wrong, can you help me find it please? >.<
04:04:32 <izabera> it's the output of my brainfuck thingy, trying to optimize the multiplication loops
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04:09:47 <oerjan> i dunno but it seems a bit useless to have more than one i adjustment in each inner loop
04:10:13 <oerjan> oh wait that's the before optimization version
04:10:30 <oerjan> right now, izabera's brainfuck compiler
04:11:20 <izabera> they all look correct to me :(
04:12:06 <izabera> my bf compiler is not working correctly, that's what's going wrong >.>
04:12:42 <oerjan> the first one does look correct...
04:12:53 <Walpurgisnacht> Well you can compile boyfriend because that's cheating that might be what's going wrong But brainfuck compilers not working are another issue
04:13:20 <izabera> is there an esoteric language called boyfriend?
04:15:23 <oerjan> second looks correct...
04:17:46 <izabera> there must be something else that's wrong
04:18:13 <Walpurgisnacht> cry into the source files throw it into a volcano and pray
04:19:54 <izabera> < (( tape[i+1] = (tape[i+1] - tape[i] * 1) & 255, tape[i] = 0 ));
04:19:58 <izabera> > (( tape[i+1] = (tape[i+1] + tape[i] * -1) & 255 , tape[i] = 0 ));
04:20:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:14: parse error on input ‘=’
04:23:44 <oerjan> izabera: that's not _necessarily_ incorrect
04:24:08 <oerjan> although maybe it's wrong syntax for what it tries to do
04:24:31 <oerjan> i was about to say, maybe some of those shell commands don't do what you expect them to
04:24:57 <oerjan> and i don't know shell well enough to say
04:27:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Binary lambda calculus]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43479&oldid=35937 * Phase * (-7) update link
04:30:36 <Jafet> bf, the best friend language
04:34:01 <izabera> nope fixed that and it's still wrong
04:35:13 <oerjan> looked at the bash operator table and i still see nothing
04:36:03 <oerjan> are you sure you're running the right test files :P
04:37:19 <oerjan> hey it's happened to people before!
04:38:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Useless]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43480&oldid=37483 * Phase * (+91) add link to codegolf interpreters
04:42:39 <oerjan> "If subscript evaluates to a number less than zero, it is used as an offset from one greater than the array's maximum index (so a subcript of -1 refers to the last element of the array). "
04:43:08 <oerjan> izabera: how big is your tape array?
04:43:45 <izabera> up to 2*31-1 elements to the right
04:43:52 <pikhq> What a day, what a day.
04:44:07 <oerjan> well i mean, how big is it initialized to be
04:44:40 <izabera> that's fine i'm sure that this part works >.>
04:46:12 <oren> why not right a test to be really really sure
04:46:21 <oren> s/right/write/
04:46:57 <oerjan> izabera: what i'm wondering is if you're using actual negative indices at any tie
04:47:12 <izabera> i understand that, and the answer is no
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04:47:40 <izabera> jk i'm pretty sure i'm not using any negative index
04:48:04 <oerjan> to check, you could assign 0 to a large index before you start, i think
04:48:59 <oren_> the reverse dns isn't picking up my domain name
04:49:02 <oerjan> it's the only idea i've got given what i've seen so far, anyway
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04:49:29 <oren_> it shoud have said oren@orenwatson.be
04:50:46 <oerjan> are you suddenly belgian
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04:51:00 <oren> no but .be is very cheap
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04:51:44 <oren> and yet not so cheap as to make me look shady
04:52:06 <oren> like orenwatson.cx or orenwatson.me or some crap\
04:52:49 <izabera> oerjan: tried that, same problem
04:53:38 <oerjan> oren: for those who _want_ to look shady, i wonder how cheap syrian addresses are
04:54:29 <oren> .sy is so shasy their registration rules are in a .doc file
04:54:41 <oren> http://www.gobin.info/domainname/sy.doc
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04:58:40 <oren_> heh, there is noticeale latency
04:58:53 <oren> about 1/2 a second
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05:12:02 <oren_cloud> only one. I was on the channel twice before.
05:13:46 <oren_cloud> http://www.orenwatson.be/1436807488.png
05:14:59 <izabera> people still use 80x24 terminals
05:15:52 <oren_cloud> so I can read a website while typing into the temrinal
05:17:14 <oren_cloud> so when I type it goes to the router, my laptop then back to the router, then through some oher stuff to a server in Virginia and then to wherever freenode is
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05:19:00 <HackEgo> mauris__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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05:48:29 <zzo38> Can you make messages encrypted better if you do not use consistent grammar and not necessarily even correct grammar? It might make it a bit difficult for some people to guess at a part of the plaintext; probably not much if the encryption algorithm is good, but maybe you will use a simple one I don't know
05:49:31 <zzo38> My MegaZeux compression program is now a bit better than DEFLATE
05:58:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, basically you should use good encryption that doesn't have plaintext attacks.
05:59:24 <b_jonas> if you're writing something like English text, it already has so many regularities that a bit of bad grammar won't help much.
05:59:24 <zzo38> But maybe you can't or maybe you are really paranoid (in which case a one time pad is best, but sometimes you cannot do that, and even then you may have to disguise the length of the message too)
06:00:13 <zzo38> Compressing the data first can be one thing you can do, I believe
06:00:31 <zzo38> Still it might have a known header
06:01:11 <b_jonas> If you're paranoid enough to spend time with this, then there are likely already better ways to spend that time to improve security.
06:01:42 <b_jonas> Bad grammar would just lead to misunderstandings, which can defeat your whole purpose of communication.
06:02:05 <zzo38> It doesn't have to be bad enough that it can not be understandable
06:02:13 <zzo38> Only just a little bit bad
06:03:10 <zzo38> But you can also rearrange a few sentences in a few unusual way even if not techinically wrong or difficult at all.
06:05:56 <zzo38> Or as part of the encryption, you might mix up the order of the words even before compression (so that "Dear" does not necessarily come first), it is mixed up more afterward.
06:06:35 <izabera> how do you plan to get back the original text?
06:06:58 <zzo38> You would have to do in a reversible way. You need to add a second key to the encryption in order to do this.
06:07:15 <zzo38> But if you are communicate with someone you have a DVD you can use a one time pad; maybe you use a one time pad that is also encrypted with a password so that if someone steal the DVD then it is still difficult to decrypt it because they do not know the password.
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06:09:25 <zzo38> Or use a second pad stored on the hard disk, which must be combined with the first pad on the DVD, and which in addition requires a password. The encrypted message can include a initialization vector which must be combined with the password in order to decrypt the one time pad.
06:10:14 <oren_cloud> microsd glued to the inside of the envelope of a letter
06:12:49 <rdococ> I'm bored... do you guys have any ideas?
06:17:10 <rdococ> for an esoteric programming language
06:18:42 <rdococ> no, dont ask me to see the wiki page on ideas
06:18:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wiki: not found
06:24:07 <zzo38> I don't know the idea
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07:17:43 <izabera> http://arin.ga/2TN6QZ/raw what's the difference between the commented line and the rest?
07:18:00 <izabera> the bf code they come from is [->>>>+<<[-]<<]
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07:35:19 <izabera> ah got it, in the first case tape[i+2] is zeroed out even if tape[i] is zero
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08:53:18 <mroman_> Why does Facebook want to kill Flash?
08:54:01 <mroman_> Although I'm not opposed to the idea of killing flash as long as the streaming sites switch to using something else playable in browsers.
08:54:22 <mroman_> If they switch to divx-player I'm gonna be mad.
08:54:52 <mroman_> Does the HTML5 Version of YouTube inject ads into videos?
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08:58:11 <mroman_> oh. It still gives you the javascript player
08:58:25 <mroman_> I thought the would just present the video and the browser will have some sort of player built-in.
09:11:45 <Taneb> Ooh, IOCCC announcement
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09:24:59 <mroman_> How does Rust handle multiple files o_O
09:27:40 <mroman_> this allows you to address something with just io::
09:27:51 <mroman_> is that an implicit "use namespace" or something?
09:28:08 <mroman_> apparentely sometimes you have to use mod and sometimes use
09:28:19 <mroman_> mod test; will require you to write test::fun
09:29:06 <mroman_> but you can write use test::fun; and then you can just write fun
09:29:11 <mroman_> but you'd have to do that for every function?
09:29:27 <mroman_> nvm. there's use test::*; apparentely
09:30:49 <Jafet> If you're implementing a java compiler, I wonder if you could get away with treating import commands as regular expressions
09:31:41 <mroman_> it's not allowed to have more than one public class in the same file
09:32:09 <mroman_> and how would you handle package scope then?
09:32:22 <mroman_> there's public, private, protected and default
09:32:36 <Jafet> I mean, import commands are either Foo.Bar or Foo.*
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09:33:07 <Jafet> --which are valid regular expressions.
09:33:08 <mroman_> default meaning "no access modifier"
09:33:14 <mroman_> not "the default access modifier"
09:33:20 <mroman_> for interfaces the default access modifier is "public"
09:34:01 <mroman_> Jafet: wouldn't the dot need escaping?
09:34:37 <Jafet> I didn't say the regular expression would live up to expectations.
09:35:11 <Jafet> Also, that's a different regular expression (which only matches strings like Foo.Bar....)
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10:34:23 <mroman_> Roughly one hour to go for new what if
10:36:15 <boily> mrhelloman_. what if, as in xkcd's what if?
10:37:44 <int-e> what if... it's delayed?
10:38:03 <mroman_> I'm gonna fly to america and slap Randall in the face
10:38:14 <boily> hellint-e. don't jinx it.
10:38:37 <mroman_> or challenge him to a bareknuckle fight.
10:38:39 <b_jonas> mroman_: what? isn't "What If" on a permanent on hold, with a notice that always says it will be back next week?
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10:38:53 <b_jonas> the date will change again within that hour
10:39:00 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, that's what it says now
10:39:05 <b_jonas> it will update to a week later
10:39:37 <mroman_> no, it has always been 14th of July for the last weeks
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10:42:44 <b_jonas> mroman_: hmm, maybe it updates every two or three weeks then?
10:43:15 <b_jonas> oh great! I didn't notice this book
10:44:04 <Taneb> aaaaah the IOCCC people replies to one of my tweets!
10:45:14 <boily> Tanelle. you tweet?
10:45:32 <Taneb> boily, had an account for a while, never really used it much until literally two days ago
10:45:44 <Taneb> Apologies, lambdabot
10:52:12 <Taneb> https://twitter.com/Ngevd/status/620899140835237888
10:52:41 <b_jonas> they already have a date for the next ioccc, when the programs from the previous one isn't even public yet
10:52:49 <b_jonas> and it will start... what when?
10:52:55 <Taneb> b_jonas, they were made public today I think
10:53:09 <Taneb> And I think it will start... SEVEN DAYS BEFORE THEY ANNOUNCED IT
10:54:30 <b_jonas> if it's started, shouldn't that be annoucned on http://www.de.ioccc.org/index.html
10:54:38 <b_jonas> or is the mirror out of date?
10:55:20 <b_jonas> http://www.ioccc.org/index.html has announced the start of the contest
10:55:36 <b_jonas> and they dared to make it overlap with the icfp contest, when that was announced like months ago?
11:02:04 <b_jonas> Taneb: thanks for the note
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11:02:12 <mroman_> oh. new ioccc contest is running?
11:02:17 <Taneb> You too, if you're entering, b_jonas
11:03:14 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, apparently backdated to before they even released the names of the winners of the previous one, and it shows up on only some of the official ioccc mirror sites
11:04:31 <b_jonas> The guidelines says "There are 29 reasons why these guidelines seem obfuscated." but now they're obfuscating even the fact that there's a new contest
11:08:18 <b_jonas> Taneb: and the tweet https://twitter.com/ioccc/status/620875879711780864 is from today too
11:08:45 <b_jonas> apparently they did it to get a funny timestamp or something
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12:08:56 <Jafet> http://www.ioccc.org/png/ioccc.png
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15:59:31 <Taneb> Is depending on GTK or something too much for an IOCCC program?
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16:16:24 <coppro> although actually now that I think about it
16:16:29 <coppro> they've allowed X programs in the past, haven't they?
16:17:19 <Taneb> Nothing in the rules against it
16:17:27 <Taneb> X client entries should avoid using X related libraries and
16:17:27 <Taneb> software that is not in wide spread use.
16:17:37 <Taneb> We don't like entries that use proprietary toolkits such as the M*tif,
16:17:37 <Taneb> Xv*ew, or OpenL*ok toolkits, since not everyone has them. Use of an
16:17:37 <Taneb> open source toolkit that is widely and freely available instead.
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16:18:12 <Taneb> In any case I am having second thoughts about how I want to do rendering
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16:27:08 <coppro> i mean the one with the three colored gears
16:27:27 <Taneb> That is possible to use a library?!?!?
16:38:12 <Taneb> I might even just use Xlib
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17:10:39 <oerjan> <mroman_> No, 14th of July, 7:49 <-- hm is that "coincidentally" the exact time for the new horizon flyby?
17:11:58 * oerjan looks at actual what-if
17:16:45 <oerjan> stupid google is doing that thing where it thinks i prefer norwegian wikipedia again
17:16:59 <oerjan> (and not even putting the english on the first page)
17:17:52 <oerjan> or second, for that matter.
17:19:27 <oerjan> ah wikipedia confirms 7:49 EDT, randall's on the east coast isn't he?
17:20:08 <oerjan> "On July 14, 2015 11:49 UTC (07:49 EDT), the New Horizons spacecraft flew 12,600 km (7,800 mi) from the surface of Pluto."
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17:22:34 <oerjan> b_jonas: conclusion, there was nothing random about the update time whatsoever hth
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21:41:00 <boily> @tell oerjan !najrølleh
21:41:37 <boily> @tell oerjan (please note that I would've liked the slash upon the o to be reversed, but it seems to be too much of a unicodehassle hth)
21:43:35 <lambdabot> CYUL 142100Z 29004KT 15SM BKN055 OVC090 25/19 A2954 RMK SC7AC1 SLP004 DENSITY ALT 1700FT
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21:43:59 <boily> strangely, dew point remained at 19 today instead of dutifully following the temperature.
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21:49:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43481&oldid=43475 * Phase * (+12)
21:49:50 <lambdabot> LOWI 142120Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 NCD 19/15 Q1020
21:51:00 <int-e> oh, "no cloud detected"
21:55:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43482 * Phase * (+310) basic summary of the language
21:57:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43483&oldid=43482 * Phase * (+1311) More features of the language
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22:00:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43484&oldid=43483 * Phase * (+935) more features
22:01:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43485&oldid=43484 * Phase * (+5) fix lists
22:19:53 <boily> fizzie: fizziello! would you please reinstantiate fungot twh?
22:20:34 <shachaf> "would you please reinstantiate fungot that would help?"?
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22:21:48 <boily> shellochaf. there's a missing comma hth
22:22:04 <shachaf> Are you asking if it would help?
22:22:23 <boily> the punctuation mark at the end is also wrong.
22:22:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43486&oldid=43485 * Phase * (+1143) Explain file inputting and outputting & character pushing
22:25:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43487&oldid=43477 * Phase * (+9)
22:35:45 <b_jonas> this may be just what I wanted
22:35:49 <b_jonas> or not, depending on the details
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22:45:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43488&oldid=43486 * Phase * (+0) fix typo
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22:55:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43489&oldid=43488 * Phase * (-9) show character pushing
22:57:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43490&oldid=43489 * Phase * (+3) change link
22:57:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43491&oldid=43490 * Phase * (+3) H would be a separate object on the stack
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23:13:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43492&oldid=43491 * Phase * (+1365) lots of more information
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23:44:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43493&oldid=43492 * Esowiki201529A * (+1) /* CodeBlocks */
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23:50:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43494&oldid=43493 * Phase * (+13) /* String Manipulation */ Rename section
00:01:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43495&oldid=43494 * Phase * (+304) /* CodeBlocks */ better explanation
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00:27:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43496&oldid=43495 * Phase * (+494) /* String Manipulation */ Casting to a double
00:27:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43497&oldid=43496 * Phase * (+2) Move Characters under Strings
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00:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43498&oldid=43497 * Phase * (+846) /* Boolean Logic */ Add section
00:46:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43499&oldid=43498 * Phase * (+6) /* Boolean Logic */ Change pre to code
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00:51:05 <oren> reverse dns is a scow
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00:57:13 <Sgeo_> I should probably migrate PSOX to GitHub
01:00:07 <Sgeo_> Thing I made in 2007/2008 to enable stdio-only esolangs to do other things with an appropriate server. It was optimized for BF despite my intentions for it to be more general
01:00:40 <Sgeo_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PSOX
01:04:11 <Sgeo_> Is github.com/ehird his most recent github, or is there newer?
01:05:21 <Sgeo_> tada https://github.com/Sgeo/psox
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01:14:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43500&oldid=43499 * Phase * (+375) /* Boolean Logic */ Strings do contains for > and <; moved around sections
01:15:04 <oren> cool. Externalizing this sort of stuff helps keep the core language small
01:15:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43501&oldid=43500 * Phase * (-132) /* Boolean Logic */ Remove old examples
01:16:12 <Sgeo_> The Brainfuck bias shows in two ways that I can think of right now (and that have been mentioned to me so long ago): The extensive use of NUL, and NUL as a success value.
01:16:31 <Sgeo_> Hmm, actually, not sure how the latter indicates a BF bias
01:18:53 <oren> it indicates an sh bias
01:19:16 <Sgeo_> I redid the way input worked because of Windows, but I still haven't tested PSOX on Windows
01:20:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43502&oldid=43501 * Phase * (+18) /* String Manipulation */ Reword and show example
01:20:13 <Sgeo_> o.O the spec has an inconsistency
01:20:21 <Sgeo_> "0x00 0x02 0x03 "http://example.com/longname" 0x0A
01:20:21 <Sgeo_> The string is a null-terminated string. Note"
01:20:34 <Sgeo_> "Remember, somestring is not a NUL-terminated string, it just doens't contain a 0x0A"
01:20:52 <Sgeo_> (the latter quote is in the spec of that function)
01:21:01 <oren> a url can't contain either anyway
01:21:38 <Sgeo_> NUL-terminated vs not nul-terminated makes a difference
01:21:55 <oren> oh the nul is actually output oh
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01:23:22 <Sgeo_> The List of Builtin Domains is outdated... or more accurately, the other builtin domains aren't actually built in
01:23:34 <coppro> can someone explain to me why uuidd exists?
01:25:07 <oren> it apparently provides uniqueness even when lots of threads are grabbing uuids at once
01:26:26 <oren> maybe it has a pseudo-random generator with a large state and generates a buffer which it replenishes?
01:28:21 <oren> i mean, if all uuids come from one place that makes it somewhat easier to guarantee uniqueness certainly
01:29:47 <oren> but in that case you could also just emit sequential numbers
01:30:07 <oren> maybe a security problem with that
01:33:41 <oren> but then, relying on people not being able to guess a uuid is kind of shit
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01:37:07 <variable> oren: uuid is not meant for secure problems
01:37:21 <variable> uuid exists since it, in theory, should be *globally* unique
01:37:40 <variable> that is, you producing a uuid and me producing a uuid very rarely colide
01:39:19 <oren> yes but I assume he was asking why we need a daemon to generate them?
01:39:57 <variable> wait, there is a daemon that generates them?
01:41:37 <variable> coppro: never heard of it, but does it produce V1 guids ?
01:42:19 <variable> if so, its very likely what oren said: to avoid issues with multiple threads creating guids at the same time
01:42:34 <variable> today's computers are fast enough to produce colliding v1 guids :'(
01:42:58 <coppro> no it generates uuidds
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01:52:10 <fowl> twitters UIDs are a timestamp, worker ID and a sequential ID smashed into uint64 https://blog.twitter.com/2010/announcing-snowflake
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02:42:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43503&oldid=43502 * Phase * (+255) /* CodeBlocks */ CodeBlocks can now be on the stack and are assigned to characters just like variables (because they are variables)
02:55:34 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/6502machinecode.asc
02:56:21 <oren> 6502's instruction set looks much less confusing if the opcodes are written and organized in octal rather than hex
02:56:33 <pikhq> Isn't that also true of the 8086?
02:59:16 <oren> hmm, dunno. the ADD instructions on 86 are all 00x in octal it's true
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03:20:16 <oren> beacuse .txt is sooo windowzy
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03:29:48 <tswett> Doesn't UUID mean any sort of universally unique identifier (generally one with lots of entropy), while GUID refers specifically to Microsoft's realization of the concept?
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05:24:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43504&oldid=43503 * Phase * (+530) /* CodeBlocks */ Show CodeBlock adding
05:27:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43505&oldid=43504 * Phase * (+3) /* Variables */ Setting a variable won't pop it off the stack
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05:32:37 <Sgeo_> https://github.com/Sgeo/psox/commit/64efa9fef9d6ec3b08026f350558766b53c9aa3a
05:32:48 <Sgeo_> Was I on drugs, or did I steal this from someone who was on drugs?
05:35:13 <coppro> eval('"' + raw_input() + '"')
05:35:20 <coppro> 10/10 would read again
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05:55:24 <izabera> do you have an example of a compiler for a turing complete language that's written in a non turing complete language?
05:56:27 <Sgeo_> The <language in which all possible strings are the cat program> is perfectly capable of compiling <some machine language that actually has access to infinite memory> into <that language>
05:56:46 <Sgeo_> Pathological cases are fun and useful!
05:59:35 <Taneb> izabera, I don't think you need more than a push-down automata to compile, eg, brainfuck to C
06:02:17 <izabera> like sed (the command) which is turing complete if you have labels and jumps, but it's not if you only use s///g, and that's enough to compile brainfuck
06:11:30 <Jafet> You can, in fact, pick any language for which a compiler always terminates, and then take the language whose only valid programs implement that compiler
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06:47:24 <mroman_> 400bit/s isn't very much o_O
06:47:33 <mroman_> but given it's over mio. of kms
06:56:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43506&oldid=43505 * Phase * (+369) add infobox
06:57:28 <mroman_> You can compile Brainfuck to Ook with just regular expressions
06:58:13 <mroman_> That is, if you consider Brainfuck and Ook to be different languages.
06:58:27 <Jafet> cat can compile brainfuck to ASCII Art-
06:59:32 <Sgeo_> I think I know why I wrote it like that: I wanted to be able to use Python escapes
06:59:40 <mroman_> I bet you could teach ravens to compile Brainfuck to Ook
06:59:42 <Sgeo_> Writing nul bytes and PSOX commands etc
07:00:25 <mroman_> or some binary versions of it
07:01:08 <mroman_> it would be funny to teach birds to operate a deadfish machine
07:01:41 <mroman_> and maybe you use 4 kinds of food
07:01:54 <mroman_> and the bird will press the corresponding button on the deadfish machine :D
07:02:25 <Jafet> Four kinds of dead fish
07:02:48 <mroman_> and then we'll teach them to program in Brainfuck!
07:02:55 <mroman_> and then how to kill humans
07:03:04 <mroman_> and then they might take over the world
07:03:16 <mroman_> or at least we get another good movie about birds killing humans
07:03:21 <mroman_> like that one hitchock movie
07:04:34 <mroman_> That's an interesting name
07:05:25 <mroman_> meanwhile, my port registration request has been forwarded to the port experts for review
07:06:20 <Taneb> What are you registering a port for
07:07:06 <mroman_> a server that serves as an execution service for esoteric programming languages
07:07:24 <mroman_> The client connects, specifies the language and options, sends the program
07:07:40 <mroman_> and then the client will send stdin to the server and the server will stream stdout to the client
07:07:49 <mroman_> (which allows execution of interactive programs)
07:08:03 <mroman_> (the client streams stdin to the server)
07:08:40 <mroman_> If it weren't for the interactive and streaming part I would have picked HTTP
07:09:31 <mroman_> Although you might be able to abuse HTTP for interactive streaming somehow
07:09:54 <Taneb> Why not something like telnet?
07:10:28 <mroman_> Taneb: you mean give people shell access?
07:10:33 <HackEgo> california/California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A"
07:10:43 <Taneb> mroman_, no, having a service accessible by telnet
07:11:08 <Taneb> Telnet doesn't necessitate shell access
07:11:08 <mroman_> you'd still need to define a protocol over telnet
07:11:26 <mroman_> but telnet could be used for the underlying communication I guess
07:12:13 <mroman_> Except that telnet doesn't support TLS/SSL
07:12:35 <Sgeo_> I think my spec wrongly implies that VARARG(STRINGNL) is meaningful
07:13:26 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/ansi.ans <-- missing anything?
07:13:29 <Sgeo_> STRINGNL is really kind of weird
07:13:42 <mroman_> Taneb: This also means that the ESOSC has to write the spec for the protocol btw ;)
07:14:08 <Sgeo_> It's a string that's terminated by a newline that is part of the command being sent
07:15:11 <Taneb> mroman_, oh dear :P
07:16:39 <mroman_> ESOSC has a duty in this world!
07:17:05 <mroman_> being crazy is one of them.
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07:26:34 <oren> the data shall be transmitted in the subset of Ascii consisting of IDLXCVDN, space and newline, where each octet shall be encoded in Roman Numerals as per [1, Livy] and separated with a space or newline as necessary to ensure that no more than 80 characters appear on a line, as per [2]
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07:29:29 <oren> Hence, the string "Hi" shall be encoded as ``LXXII CV N''
07:37:31 <b_jonas> oren: no no no. you have to define what type of newline, give the syntax in BNF notation, and discuss the known security implications
07:40:17 <oren> Right. for security, see the solutions used by [3, Julius] and [4, Augustus]. You meet in secret to exchange a key, being a number between 1 and 25...
07:40:35 <izabera> https://asciinema.org/a/dc7a8jytvjhia5xhcyfin8k1b spam spam spam
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07:51:33 <b_jonas> oren: please also link the later RFC on the solutions for using slaves when you cannot meet in secret
08:03:47 <mroman_> slaves will be killed on arrival
08:05:39 <mroman_> engrave the secret key on some piece of metal, fill a closable container with a liquid that can be absorbed by the skin and is very deadly
08:05:48 <mroman_> then put the key in that liquid
08:05:59 <mroman_> on arrival the slave has to put his hand into the liquid to get the key
08:06:02 <mroman_> and ultimately dies later on
08:06:36 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/romd.c
08:06:43 <mroman_> if the liquid is missing you have been compromised
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08:19:55 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 38m 55s ago: !najrølleh
08:19:55 <lambdabot> boily said 10h 38m 18s ago: (please note that I would've liked the slash upon the o to be reversed, but it seems to be too much of a unicodehassle hth)
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08:41:45 <shachaf> but saying o⃥rjan is v. disrespectful
08:41:53 <shachaf> you'd have to make up for it by calling him o⃫rjan
08:43:50 <oerjan> i don't see any of those characters right anyway
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09:03:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43507 * Phase * (+835) Rough explanation of J--
09:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43508&oldid=43481 * Phase * (+35) link to J--
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09:16:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43509&oldid=43507 * Phase * (+1) fix quote
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10:15:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43510&oldid=43509 * Phase * (+530) built in functions
10:20:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43511&oldid=43510 * Phase * (+62) /* Examples */ Cat program
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10:43:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43512&oldid=43511 * Phase * (+17) main is now a replacement
10:49:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[J--]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43513&oldid=43512 * Phase * (+169) /* Examples */ More examples
10:58:49 <mroman_> the feeling when a method called String toJSON produces XML .
11:01:07 * boily stays far away from mroman_
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11:14:59 <boily> fungot: mhound, tromple, spronghack.
11:15:00 <fungot> boily: i last saw arcus on may 02 at fnord am utc, saying: garou, ping?" on fnord" in that dimension. a dimension not only of languages like b, pl/ sql doesn't count.
11:17:19 <boily> `le/rn fnord am/Fnord AM is the repeated hour that happens when DST resolves. It is customary to celebrate it with a Garou Ping if one is awake during that time.
11:20:05 <mroman_> `? JSON is JavaSyntax Or Nothing.
11:20:06 <HackEgo> JSON is JavaSyntax Or Nothing.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
11:20:12 <mroman_> `learn JSON is JavaSyntax Or Nothing.
11:20:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'json': JSON is JavaSyntax Or Nothing.
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11:25:23 <mroman_> The only usage for JSON I found so far is
11:25:55 <mroman_> {"xml":"<person><age>18</age></person>"}
11:27:21 <boily> ... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
11:27:53 <boily> TANELLE! STAY AWAY! AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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11:30:46 <mroman_> that there was a method toJSON which used JAXB
11:31:00 <mroman_> under the assumption that JAXB will use a JSON provider to do the serialisation (per default)
11:31:08 <mroman_> which it does not. So it returned actual XML.
11:31:37 <mroman_> which is why I'm manually using jackson now to do that.
11:33:34 <mroman_> on the other hand I'm rewriting a network library that used peer-to-peer SSL communications to using a REST approach :D
11:34:11 <mroman_> which isn't really optimal since it exchanges thousands of messages
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11:34:45 <mroman_> but! That's what the client wants.
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11:34:57 <mroman_> It's gotta be RESTful. No matter what.
11:35:05 <fizzie> Perhaps they just tried to tell you they're tired, and you took it wrong?
11:36:25 <mroman_> It's a zero knowledge like protocol library that bounces thousands of messages among the participants that take part in the computation
11:36:59 <mroman_> (also secret sharing stuff)
11:38:06 <mroman_> of course, now sending a message requires a new http connection for each message
11:39:00 <Taneb> Help I am watching a graduation ceremony on YouTube
11:39:10 <mroman_> Taneb: Watch cat videos instead
11:39:20 <Taneb> mroman_, someone I know is graduating
11:40:53 <mroman_> and why aren't you attending in person?
11:41:15 <Taneb> Because I just finished my second year of 4?
11:41:59 <mroman_> and he's far away I presume
11:42:34 <Taneb> (and I never said "he", it's good practise not to make assumptions like that)
11:43:08 <Taneb> I'm really only watching because I am bored
11:43:30 <mroman_> but I can't say "it" either
11:43:39 <Taneb> "they" is acceptable nowadays
11:44:10 <Taneb> In modern usage it can refer to the singular also
11:44:20 <mroman_> but I could've said "your friend"
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11:44:25 <Taneb> Yes, that would also work
11:44:38 <Jafet> But it's not known whether that person is Taneb's friend.
11:44:45 <mroman_> is "they" accepted by gender neutral persons as well?
11:44:53 <mroman_> or non-binary gender persons?
11:44:55 <Taneb> mroman_, generally, yes, but it depends on the person
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11:45:28 <mroman_> there aren't enough pronouns for all the gender identities nowadays.
11:45:46 <mroman_> also I'd opt for "friend" and "friendess"
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11:46:10 <Jafet> Don't you mean friendperson
11:46:16 <mroman_> although that only works for classic binary genders
11:47:48 <mroman_> "and they is far away" sounds horrible.
11:48:16 <Taneb> I think the verb changes to match the pronoun
11:48:30 <mroman_> but it's used as a singular?
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11:49:04 <Taneb> English is a language that totally makes sense
11:49:25 <mroman_> Well, English makes sorta sense
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11:50:07 <Jafet> @google devil's dictionary
11:50:08 <lambdabot> http://www.thedevilsdictionary.com/
11:50:08 <lambdabot> Title: Ambrose Bierce - The Devil's Dictionary - for Tablet & Screen
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12:07:19 <mroman_> fungot: Do you cooperate with the devil?
12:07:19 <fungot> mroman_: i think that he occasionally confers with people and machines."
12:07:53 <Taneb> mroman_, not often
12:08:17 <Taneb> (although that was a really nice answer)
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12:35:48 <mroman_> Taneb: but fungot is neither a machine nor is it a person!
12:35:48 <fungot> mroman_: but if you really want ton know?" might be a typo
12:43:12 <HackEgo> metaplace/Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
12:43:18 <HackEgo> 1224) <elliott> listen. listen. jesus has saved me from talking about undefined behaviour in C with you any more, and He could save you too.
12:48:15 <fizzie> Not a machine, not a person, but might be a typo.
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12:54:48 <Jafet> fungot was originally designed to be a flexible network observation and reconnaissance daemon, but there was a typo.
12:54:48 <fungot> Jafet: fnord " right" way here, when you're around.
12:59:19 <olsner> fungot: are you really a typo?
12:59:20 <fungot> olsner: very well, i was having a lot of list support can do almost everythig you'd want for " static" beta redexes and reduce them, like " 36 f.supp.2d 191" or " can't produce easily"
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14:23:16 <Taneb> I need to improve my work ethic...
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15:00:57 <Jafet> `culprit wisdom/metaplace
15:00:57 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culprit: not found
15:01:03 <Jafet> `culprits wisdom/metaplace
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15:36:31 <Jafet> Hmm, unloading ehci is a bad idea when the keyboard is connected through USB.
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16:55:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43514&oldid=43487 * JayCampbell * (+231)
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16:57:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Jackass]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43515 * JayCampbell * (+125) Created page with "You've been drive-by interpreted! ~~~~"
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17:03:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43516&oldid=43515 * JayCampbell * (+461)
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17:22:19 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ <mroman_> that sounds like plural <-- you know "you" is etymologically plural, right? so english is just becoming more consistent. now we just need to make it acceptable for others than Elizabeth to use "we"...
17:42:41 <Jafet> fungot: assimilate https://www.reddit.com/r/datasets/comments/3bxlg7/i_have_every_publicly_available_reddit_comment/
17:42:41 <fungot> Jafet: that's what i figured, i dont' know if you find out? :)
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18:08:17 <oerjan> Jafet: do you _really_ want to risk creating an AI with the behavior and opinions of the average reddit commenter?
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18:09:14 <Jafet> Good point. Have an upvote.
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19:23:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43517&oldid=43506 * Phase * (+641) dictionaries
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19:41:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43518&oldid=43517 * Phase * (+72) basic lists
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20:08:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43519&oldid=43518 * Phase * (+245) /* Arrays */ Rename to Arrays and more operators
20:16:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43520&oldid=43519 * Phase * (+145) /* String Manipulation */ String evaluating
20:17:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43521&oldid=43520 * Phase * (+1) /* - */ There should be a '-'
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22:40:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43522&oldid=43516 * JayCampbell * (-81)
22:42:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43523&oldid=43514 * JayCampbell * (+22) /* Interpreter */
22:47:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hack VM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43524&oldid=17789 * Phase * (+2784) Fill in more information
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01:31:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43525&oldid=43425 * 146.171.254.97 * (+10)
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02:21:10 <izabera> challenge: write a program that prints a regex that matches the program's source code, but not the program's code with any two characters swapped
02:33:04 <ais523> izabera: you could cheat by making it an almost-quine which replaced one character with . in the output
02:33:35 <ais523> actually I thought you were going to say "write a program that works with any two characters swapped"
02:33:56 <ais523> but that's trivial in any language which has single-character comments, as you can just alternate comment characters and code
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02:43:12 <oren> ais523: doesn't that assume the characters to be swapped are adjacent?
02:43:40 <ais523> that's what I assumed reading izabera's sentence
02:43:44 <ais523> but it doesn't actually say that
02:44:23 <ais523> /any/ two characters would be much harder, because you can swap the opening and closing delimiter of something that has opening and closing delimiters (or if they're multiple characters, corrupt one but not the other)
02:44:25 <izabera> would it be easier if they can only be adjacent?
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02:45:05 <ais523> I can write this program in Unary
02:45:11 <ais523> not that I'd /want/ to, but I could
02:45:15 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Unary
02:45:27 <ais523> err, unless you allow swapping two identical characters
02:45:34 <ais523> in which case all the characters in the program have to be distinct
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02:45:52 <ais523> which is a pretty big description as-is
02:45:53 <izabera> still, printing the regex thingy isn't so easy i guess
02:46:16 <oren> perrier: like the mineral water company?
02:46:18 <ais523> if there's any language with a one-character command that isn't . and prints .
02:47:18 <oren> heh, i like it
02:48:25 <oren> it doesnt match the frobbed strings because there are no such strings... the best kind of truth
02:50:15 <ais523> that said, I've been trying to design a language specifically so that you could make arbitrary minor changes to it without significantly changing the meaning of the prorgam
02:50:24 <ais523> it ended up very biological, this probably isn't a coincidence
02:50:31 <ais523> haven't worked out the details though
02:51:38 <izabera> `` a='``' b=\' c=\\ d=\; e='echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$b$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e';echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$b$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e
02:51:39 <HackEgo> `` a='``' b=\' c=\\ d='; e='echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$b$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e';echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$b$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e
02:52:17 <izabera> `` a='``' b=\' c=\\ d=\; e='echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$c$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e';echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$c$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e
02:52:17 <HackEgo> `` a='``' b=\' c=\\ d=\; e='echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$c$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e';echo -n $a a=$b$a$b b=$c$b c=$c$c d=$c$d e=$b$e$b$d;echo -n $e
02:52:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43526&oldid=43521 * Phase * (+1011) /* Control Flow */
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03:17:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43527 * JayCampbell * (+200) Created page with "A planned [[pyth]] variant in pure javascript for code golfing. --~~~ [[Category:Languages]] [[Category:2015]] [[Category:Unimplemented]]"
03:18:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ℒight]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43528 * Phase * (+22951) Create the best C
03:20:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Light]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43529 * Phase * (+21) Redirect 'Light' to 'ℒight'
03:23:10 <ais523> and thought it might be a long, detailed and complex language
03:23:34 <ais523> someone tell Phase that at least in my browser, it's easy to scroll to the end…
03:24:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Jackass]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43530&oldid=43522 * Phase * (+253) responsessesesesesseseesesss
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03:32:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43531&oldid=42904 * Phase * (+107) /* The heat death of the universe */ ℒight may be implemented by then.
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03:36:54 <oren> I've invented a really stupid way to implement some subset of regexes: use 65280 bytes.
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03:38:41 <oren> er, actually you need two distinct end states, so 65024
03:39:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43532&oldid=43531 * Ais523 * (-107) Undo revision 43531 by [[Special:Contributions/Phase|Phase]] ([[User talk:Phase|talk]]) specifically on the "have not yet garnered much attention" clause, but the mention here also isn't particularly funny (especially as the language is easy to imp
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03:41:43 <Sgeo_> Looks like one infinitely long output, not infinite outputs
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03:43:47 <Sgeo_> The sad thing is it doesn't even become near Shameful
03:44:47 <Sgeo_> Well, no, if Snack is shameful, this is, I think
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03:46:55 <Sgeo_> I don't think Snack should quality. It's actually coherent, with a readable and executable impl
03:47:25 <Sgeo_> Hmm garbage if you don't grave
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04:30:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43533&oldid=43526 * Phase * (+256) /* Examples */ Add more examples
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04:36:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fifth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43534&oldid=43533 * Phase * (+24) /* Repeat a string */ Fix example
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05:43:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Phase * moved [[Fifth]] to [[O]]: Rename the language
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05:45:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43537&oldid=43535 * Phase * (-8) Rename language to O
05:45:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43538&oldid=43537 * Phase * (+1) typo
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06:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Passalambida]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43539 * 179.179.223.17 * (+222) Languages
06:24:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43540&oldid=43346 * 73.221.67.162 * (+257) /* Implementation */
06:44:24 <Sgeo_> I just looked at the Esme article again.
06:44:28 <Sgeo_> I want to poison my eyes.
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07:12:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43541&oldid=43538 * Phase * (-4) /* External Resources */ Right link to the interpreter
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07:47:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43542&oldid=43541 * Phase * (+158) /* String Manipulation */ String replacement
07:47:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43543&oldid=43525 * Phase * (+8) /* O */ Add O Language
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07:56:33 <izabera> http://arin.ga/lsqf7x/raw this compiles just fine on tcc
08:02:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[K]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43544 * Phase * (+1914) K summary
08:09:31 <Jafet> Related: http://www.ioccc.org/1998/schweikh1.c ("lines" 49-50)
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08:30:12 <rdococ> to be honest, that O programming language looks about as esoteric as J is
08:30:41 <rdococ> maybe a bit more, because it seems to use more primitive data types
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08:32:36 <rdococ> omg... imagine like an "In Time" based programming language.
08:33:33 <rdococ> we could call it "90 minutes"
08:34:00 <rdococ> and every variable counts down to 0, and if the variable value is at 0, then the variable times out and dies a bloody death
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09:50:27 <Taneb> Nah, it's just odd
09:50:40 <Taneb> (my personal opinion, do not take as canon)
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09:59:16 <ais523> it's basically just another language in the APL family
09:59:22 <ais523> but the APL family is generally downright weird
09:59:33 <ais523> it's probably too large and generally used by now to be an esolang, though (this is a low bar)
10:00:15 <Jafet> J is merely obscure. Esoteric is, like, compiling brainfuck to bourne again shell script
10:01:34 <ais523> isn't that also pretty easy?
10:01:42 <ais523> slightly harder if you want infinite memory
10:03:48 <Taneb> Has anyone written an Underload to brainfuck compiler?
10:04:18 <ais523> there's an Underload-in-brainfuck interpreter
10:04:24 <ais523> you could make that into a compiler via bundling
10:04:40 <ais523> not sure if you can do much better than bundling because brainfuck isn't exactly very good at dynamically allocated memory
10:04:54 <ais523> meaning that there are going to be considerable interp-like structures in the output no matter what
10:06:30 <Taneb> How about the other way round (sans input, of course)
10:06:55 <Jafet> Has underload been compiled to any language that was created before it
10:07:22 <Jafet> Ok, there's a reduction to a counter machine
10:07:45 <Taneb> Jafet, I believe it compiles to a bunch of similarish languages (eg FALSE) pretty easily
10:09:22 <ais523> Taneb: brainfuck-in-Underload is probably easier, I don't know if it's been done
10:09:32 <ais523> I can see how to do it, at least
10:09:40 <ais523> the standard Underload programming tricks work, no reason to do anything fancy
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10:19:30 <oerjan> Taneb: last i checked (after the :()^ discovery) FALSE has enough features for an easy TC subset of Underload, but not for the a and * commands.
10:20:10 <oerjan> i.e. you have lambdas but you cannot generate new ones that are not in the program
10:21:15 <Taneb> I was thinking of http://esolangs.org/wiki/User:Zzo38#dc.2FFALSE.2FUnderload.2FTeXnicard
10:22:06 <oerjan> oh zzo38 claims it has *
10:23:42 <oerjan> ais523: i made brainfuck in Fueue, apart from I/O underload cannot possibly be harder
10:24:14 <ais523> oerjan: brainfuck-in-Underload is pretty easy in the EsoInterpreters stakes
10:24:19 <ais523> this may be why nobody has bothered
10:24:38 <ais523> I'll do a brainfuck-in-Underlambda at some point, that'll trivially compile into Underload minus S plus I/O extensions
10:26:46 <oerjan> hm emmental is younger than underload
10:27:07 <oerjan> oh there's obviously underload in funge-98, right fungot
10:27:07 <fungot> oerjan: the most common one?
10:27:20 <oerjan> fungot: indeed it may well be the most commonly used
10:27:20 <fungot> oerjan: or any words synonymous thereto? cool! what was the name of
10:27:42 <oerjan> although, that's also an interpreter, not a compiler
10:28:38 <ais523> is Underload newer or older than Thutu?
10:29:06 <oerjan> underload 2006, thutu (and emmental) 2007
10:31:46 <ais523> or well, Underload is much older than that if you count Overload
10:31:59 <ais523> dates back to my early days as an undergraduate
10:32:08 <ais523> which would have been 2006, possibly even 2005
10:34:42 <Taneb> ais523, did I start making esolangs at a younger age than you?
10:34:51 <ais523> probably, I'd have been 18
10:35:01 <ais523> unless you count things like the noughts and crosses impl in MS Paint
10:35:04 <ais523> which came rather earlier
10:35:39 <Taneb> (my birthday's in November)
10:35:58 <Taneb> That is, if you don't count the spec I wrote for an Ook derivative, which I never published
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10:37:10 <oerjan> maybe you should publish it so we can make a derivative of it hth
10:38:26 <Taneb> oerjan, I'm not sure if it still exists
10:38:46 <Taneb> iirc it had two tapes and arithmetic
10:38:56 <Taneb> And the keyword "Eek"
10:39:05 <Jafet> That sounds bananas
10:39:05 <Taneb> With the same punctuation as Ook
10:41:55 <Taneb> Does anyone know a suitable speaker for a talk aimed at both maths students and computer science students?
10:42:48 <ais523> is the subject of the talk determined yet?
10:42:52 <ais523> if not, proof theory would seem like a good one
10:43:45 <Taneb> ais523, not determined, talking to the people in the maths society about it at 6
10:43:59 <Taneb> I was thinking cryptography or algorithms
10:44:00 <Jafet> Umm, maybe a Yamaha?
10:45:22 <Taneb> (despite being a joint-honours student who actually prefers the maths side of my degree, I have more friends in computer science and am involved in the computer science student society a lot more than the maths one)
10:46:48 <Jafet> Maybe the FFT convolution theorem.
10:47:29 <Taneb> Jafet, I don't know much about that
10:47:44 <Taneb> Also, the issue is more we need a presenter more than a topic
10:47:56 <Taneb> Preferably one based in the UK
10:49:24 <ais523> well, you'd want a presenter competent to speak on whatever topic you chose
10:50:06 <Taneb> I'd also like a not-completely-unheard-of presenter, so they'd draw an audience maybe
10:50:15 <Taneb> Although that's not a huge issue
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11:54:07 <izabera> have you ever seen c code being slower than bash code?
11:54:33 <izabera> http://arin.ga/ZtNMvH/raw <- minibf.c, a non optimizing compiler
11:54:52 <izabera> http://arin.ga/pixxUg/raw <- benchmark vs my bash thingy
11:55:49 <izabera> it's not very cheating too much <.<
11:56:21 <izabera> that minibf.c runs hanoi.b in 15s, my bash version runs it in 45s
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12:01:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jolf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43545&oldid=43527 * JayCampbell * (-200) deleting, found js port of golfscript
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12:19:10 <jayCampbell> i see ais523, sgeo, oerjan .. where's ehird?
12:19:24 <ais523> jayCampbell: doesn't idle here any more
12:22:23 <Taneb> jayCampbell, an old face returning, I presume?
12:24:26 <Taneb> 2005 was slightly before my time, so nice to meet you
12:24:43 <oerjan> i think that was slightly between my times
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12:25:31 <Taneb> I joined 2010 or 2011
12:26:20 <oerjan> Taneb: shall i hit him with my cane?
12:26:26 <Taneb> Being old is bad for your health
12:26:57 <Taneb> jayCampbell, your name sounds familiar, is there anywhere notable I'd have seen it?
12:27:48 <oerjan> there's a john campbell on the iwc forum iirc
12:28:11 <ais523> I remember the name from nomic, but am not sure if a) the nomic came first; b) the esolanging came first; or c) it's a misremembered memory and it's just esolanging
12:28:21 <oerjan> which is also the name of a notable guy
12:28:31 <jayCampbell> when did ehird win B with "commands are executed in the order they are received"
12:28:50 <ais523> jayCampbell: you are aware of what happened to B, right?
12:29:06 <jayCampbell> i probably lurked esolang first then nomic'd then registered at esolang
12:29:43 <jayCampbell> as i think about it, i'm into esolangs again this year because of nomic even though i haven't played in years
12:30:27 <ais523> jayCampbell: we discovered that the emergency rule stopped the timekeeping for the emergency rule, thus leading to an emergency that couldn't be resolved or ended
12:30:47 <jayCampbell> with AST under my belt i'm making another run at natural english
12:30:51 <ais523> in the end people created a new nomic from scratch, with the same name, on the same mailing list, but that was years later
12:31:09 <ais523> the previous apparent emergency was arguably an even more fitting end
12:31:17 <oerjan> surely they should have called the new one C nomic
12:31:21 <ais523> although one that's less fatal
12:31:22 <Taneb> jayCampbell, what sort of thing does a jayCampbell get up to?
12:31:35 <ais523> there were no refresh proposals, except one by Wooble to end the game
12:31:46 <ais523> Wooble was also the emergency coordinator, and instead of enacting eir own proposal
12:32:29 <ais523> the legal implications of that are kind-of mindboggling, nobody could figure out what was supposed to happen (and then it turned out it didn't)
12:33:58 <jayCampbell> lessee, day job is (they bought my start-up) remote worker management, next start-up is on alexa voice services for assisted living, current humanitarian thing is a new rights-for-youth org, current hobby code project is english parsing
12:35:00 <jayCampbell> is forfeiting even a legal game move during emergency
12:35:32 <jayCampbell> taneb, i actually needed to do that mental inventory
12:35:46 <Taneb> jayCampbell, you're welcome???
12:36:44 <ais523> <jayCampbell> is forfeiting even a legal game move during emergency ← many people consider it an important safeguard in nomic that you can forfeit no matter what, and that it trumps everything
12:37:11 <ais523> Agora doesn't quite share that view; it aims for similar protections, but implements them differently
12:37:30 <ais523> but I think B was strongly in the "a forfeit is always possible" camp
12:38:05 <jayCampbell> maybe we can convince wooble to pass the proposal
12:39:14 <ais523> jayCampbell: as I said, it never existed
12:39:24 <ais523> due to a much earlier emergency locking B in stasis forever
12:39:33 <ais523> most of what happened at B actually never happened, you got used to it after a while
12:40:00 <jayCampbell> i think there are several parallel universes going on
12:40:03 <Taneb> ais523, that seems comparable to Feather
12:40:29 <ais523> (similar, but less major, potential crisis at Agora atm; a bunch of proposals were submitted without adoption indices, which might have made them incapable of making any ruleset or gamestate changes)
12:40:42 <ais523> (and we only noticed quite recently)
12:42:23 <jayCampbell> parliamentary gridlock in the real world can be solved with pitchforks
12:42:59 <jayCampbell> wasn't B's tagline "this is not B nomic" for a long time?
12:43:47 <jayCampbell> my favorite day was when i was trying to get the graphic interface going for chess and some old-timer checkmated me while i wasn't paying attention
12:44:19 <jayCampbell> i set off my all pieces to move random directions and "turn the board" for next turn in a loop
12:44:31 <jayCampbell> because there were only punishment protections for such behavior
12:44:59 <jayCampbell> i automated that on a different nomic later, it was fun
12:45:14 <ais523> actually, I dislike behaviour where you're intentionally winning via violating the rules
12:45:28 <ais523> even if a punishment for breaking them is specified, I still consider the intentional break to be cheating
12:45:58 <ais523> if it's written in the form "you can do this, but you must suffer the penalty if you do", rather than "you can't do this, but if you try anyway, here's the penalty to get the game back on track" it's much more acceptable
12:46:01 <ais523> but nomics tend to use the latter
12:46:39 <jayCampbell> nomic was the source of my most heated disputes of the era
12:47:52 <jayCampbell> so i'm parsing english for a deterministic nomic
12:48:44 <Taneb> I would like to enjoy Nomic but I find it very hard to pay attention to
12:48:45 <ais523> english codenomic is an interesting idea
12:48:49 <ais523> I doubt it'll work, but it's interesting
12:49:36 <jayCampbell> ais, i'm in touch with a guy who built a self-compiling english .. the compiler, gui, editor is all in plain english
12:50:10 <jayCampbell> to me that was proof it's expressive enough
12:50:12 <ais523> that sounds appropriate for esolangs as it is
12:50:24 <ais523> the problem is not really being expressive, but rather tolerance of things outside the syntax
12:50:37 <jayCampbell> it won't parse novels but it's easy to program in .. no harder than following a magazine's style guide
12:50:41 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/English
12:50:41 <ais523> COBOL is pretty expressive and pretty English-looking, but you couldn't feed it Agora's ruleset
12:50:57 <Taneb> jayCampbell, have you seen Inform 7? It's along those lines
12:51:16 <Taneb> (the language is meant to look like natural English)
12:51:37 <jayCampbell> ais523: you could port a large chunk of the rules
12:52:06 <jayCampbell> it's not going to read *all* english, only those that follow the grammar
12:53:10 <jayCampbell> to add a vote to a poll using a player name: increment the poll; add the player name to the poll's voted list.
12:54:29 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure we discussed a "plain english" language here at some point, and were not impressed.
12:55:28 <ais523> that's pretty tortured if interpreted as English
12:56:10 <jayCampbell> i had doubts too till i saw a compiler written in english
12:57:21 <ais523> it's basically just an alternate syntax for something that could be more simply expressed a different way, I fear
12:58:03 <jayCampbell> i may be the only person on earth that thinks this can work but that's cool
12:58:53 <jayCampbell> ais, people are afraid of programming symbols .. this is also a way to trick them into programming and debugging without those more concise syntaxes
13:00:03 <jayCampbell> and why the heck is /r/nomic private, who has that
13:00:18 <Taneb> Was it part of the recent reddit blowout?
13:01:07 <jayCampbell> no, it's been that way for at least a couple years
13:04:13 <oerjan> /r/nommit isn't private though
13:04:19 <oerjan> looks pretty dead, though
13:09:35 <jayCampbell> what the world really needs is a nomic written in http://snap.berkeley.edu/
13:12:22 <Taneb> Jeez, I remember when I cared about that programming language
13:12:37 <Taneb> That was why I learnt lambda calculus, in the beginning
13:25:47 <ais523> I learned it to understand Unlambda
13:25:57 <ais523> INTERCAL and Malbolge might have got me interested in esolanging
13:26:08 <ais523> but Unlambda was by far the most influential esolang on me, I think
13:28:43 <jayCampbell> for me it was bf derivatives then things like piet keep redefining the whole concept
13:29:10 <Taneb> Piet was the first programming language full stop that I learnt
13:32:16 <jayCampbell> can't imagine what people's first language experience will be like in 20 years
13:33:10 <Jafet> In 20 years, Taneb, not now.
13:33:25 <Taneb> Jafet, I maintain Python 2
13:34:30 <Jafet> I can't wait to see the mainframe designers who have to optimise for legacy python business logic in 20 years
13:34:47 <fizzie> fungot: Was Befunge your first esolang experience by default?
13:34:48 <fungot> fizzie: fnord sucks. what can i do it without symbols at all before it clears? another hard drive.
13:35:16 <Taneb> fizzie, I'd assume the first language fungot learnt would either be brainfuck or Underload
13:35:16 <fungot> Taneb: i am on fnord side of things, but i think i'd prefer the latter ordering, but i
13:35:31 <Taneb> fungot, because fnord sucks?
13:35:32 <fungot> Taneb: that was an excessive paste :-p well, i already did some coding today. :( right now i am off topic, but is this limitation of heap-size true? first takes the list as a separate entity
13:35:37 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:36:08 <fizzie> Taneb: I guess that's a valid argument too. In that case, it would have been brainfuck.
13:37:54 <Jafet> You could try to write nomic rules in deontic logic; it would effectively be an esolang
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17:16:13 <Taneb> Does anyone know a fun person in the field of quantum information theory
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17:24:36 <Slereah__> I know QM and all, if that can help?
17:24:43 <Slereah__> But I don't know much about quantum computing
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17:27:51 <Taneb> Slereah__, are you a high profile speaker who would attract guests
17:28:05 <Taneb> And can you travel to York, England on a student society budget?
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17:34:18 <Taneb> Cryptography is also an option
17:38:36 <jayCampbell> a fun person in the field of quantum computing may have walked into a bar
17:45:04 * quintopia tries desperately to collapse the joke's wavefunction into a punchline
17:50:28 <Slereah__> Taneb : That's gonna be a no on both
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18:10:10 <zzo38> My computer is currently broken (I am using another computer right now)
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19:01:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43546&oldid=43542 * Phase * (+4) /* Repeat a string */ Fix example
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19:15:00 <lambdabot> EGLL 161850Z 10010KT CAVOK 20/13 Q1012 NOSIG
19:15:47 <fizzie> They have EGLC for London City, seemed logical London Heathrow would've been that.
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19:28:45 <zzo38> Do you have backups of any of my files? You should use them for now until I get my computer fixed; I believe only the CPU is broken and the hard drives are OK
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19:30:53 <zzo38> I cannot access my SSH account either
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19:37:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43547&oldid=43546 * Phase * (+9) Add header
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19:45:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43548&oldid=43547 * Phase * (+28) /* ` */ It should push 3, since it starts at zero.
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21:49:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43549&oldid=43548 * Phase * (+36) /* + */ 5 -> 5.0
21:50:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43550&oldid=43549 * Phase * (+0) /* + */ I swear I can't logic
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23:11:37 <jayCampbell> got another brainfuck interpreter for the list
23:11:45 <jayCampbell> https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/esolangs/brainfuck-in-snap-blocks.png
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23:35:29 <Taneb> jayCampbell, I wrote one in Scratch a while back
23:35:41 <Taneb> Although it's got a bug in it somewhere and I can't be bothered to fix it
23:48:41 <FreeFull> How many brainfuck interpreters are there written in brainfuck?
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00:11:55 <jayCampbell> taneb mine works https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/esolangs/brainfuck-in-snap-screenshot.png
00:12:56 <jayCampbell> FreeFull: self interpreters list at https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck
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01:41:31 <oren> god damn it google stop autocorrecting my employer's name to an unrelated comapny name
01:42:25 <Wallacoloo> Your employer's name wouldn't happen to be "comapny", would it?
01:43:03 <oren> no. soundhound -> soundcloud
01:44:04 <oren> I mean, how is that even a valid typo?
01:44:31 <oren> cl are nowhere near h on eny keyboeard I've seen
01:45:29 <oren> maybe they're doing naive edit distance, but I would expect better from Google
01:53:15 <Taneb> oren, it could be they're sharing code with the voice recognition
01:54:35 <oren> hmm that makes a lot of sense taneb
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02:30:12 <tswett> oren: I occasionally make macrotypos like that. Like I try to type "will" but accidentally type "which" instead.
02:30:44 <tswett> All my fingers hit the keys correctly; it's just that those keys belonged to the wrong word.
02:31:09 <tswett> Accidentally typing "cloud" instead of "hound" sounds pretty plausible, at least for me.
02:32:46 <oren> hmm interesting.
02:33:33 <oren> well google seems to have learned what I'm likely to search
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03:08:14 <zzo38> I tried to install Command-line Ubuntu (it is one distribution that I could fit onto a CD; the DVD drive on the computer I need to install into is broken, and it can't boot from USB)
03:08:23 <zzo38> But it says it failed to create a filesystem.
03:09:27 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix it please?
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03:30:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43551&oldid=43550 * Phase * (+86) /* Examples */ Factorial
03:40:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43552&oldid=43551 * Phase * (+260) /* Factorial */ Give explanation
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05:47:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43553&oldid=43552 * Phase * (-6) /* Repeat a string */ Better example
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07:46:32 <oerjan> i hear there are a number of approaches, but they're all boring hth
07:46:54 <oerjan> except for those that are just plain scary awful.
07:47:41 <rdococ> function whatIsBoredness() { return typeOf(boredness) }
07:48:11 <rdococ> oh... boredness is a float... from 0 to 1
08:17:36 <mroman_> Bored is the default state of the human mind.
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09:42:58 <lambdabot> 0.7071067811865475 :+ 0.7071067811865475
09:54:29 <Jafet> > signum (1 :+ 1) :: Complex CReal
09:54:30 <lambdabot> 0.7071067811865475244008443621048490392848 :+ 0.7071067811865475244008443621...
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10:55:36 <boily> izabellora! int-ello!
10:58:09 <int-e> I'm so excited to be here today!!!!1 Oh wait, that's just the caffeine...
10:59:09 * int-e wonders how esoteric proving things in Isabelle is...
11:00:11 <int-e> it's a proof assistant, https://isabelle.in.tum.de/
11:09:42 <Jafet> Not very. It even has a GUI.
11:10:04 <Jafet> HOL Light and its raw ocaml shell, on the other hand...
11:10:50 <int-e> I have a colleague who works with that... but from afar at least it does look very tedious.
11:14:52 <Jafet> If you're really masochistic, you could use the opentheory stack language: http://opentheory.gilith.com/opentheory/packages/axiom-infinity-1.12/axiom-infinity.art
11:20:09 <fizzie> Huh, I didn't know signum did that for complex numbers.
11:22:13 <Jafet> Well, the required property is that signum x * abs x == x.
11:22:25 <fizzie> Yes, it sure makes sense.
11:25:56 <Jafet> Speaking of required properties, Isabelle/HOL functions have to be defined for all inputs. So division is defined such that x div 0 = 0. But people wanted to keep the theorem x mod y = x - x div y * y, so it's also defined that x mod 0 = x.
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13:21:46 <jayCampbell> taneb my loops are half broken too so egg on my face
13:23:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * AlbertBrown * New user account
13:24:12 <jayCampbell> i'm sure it's just a missing pointer bump at the end of the loops
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13:26:26 <Taneb> https://scratch.mit.edu/projects/1234507/ is mine
13:27:39 <jayCampbell> i saw your emulator a couple weeks ago actually
13:29:39 <Taneb> I should do more esolang interpreters in Scratch or similar
13:30:21 <Taneb> Scratch has that as well I think
13:30:27 <fizzie> Taneb: That's a lotta nesting. I think it'd be nice to have the "switch" at one level of indentation, even if it were slightly less efficient.
13:30:40 <jayCampbell> in theory you could broadcast "hey, handle the current op" and little third party snippets could decide if they want to act on the op
13:30:51 <jayCampbell> so you can add brainfuck variants just by adding the extra ops
13:31:11 <Taneb> fizzie, I wrote it 5 years ago when I was a less good programmer
13:31:36 <jayCampbell> somehow my kit didn't include switch so i'm a flat set of if's
13:32:18 <fizzie> Yes, it was a metaphorical switch.
13:33:02 <jayCampbell> snap has Build Your Own Blocks but i've stayed with vanilla blocks
13:33:26 <jayCampbell> fizzie here's a snapshot of mine from last night, i forget if you were around https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/esolangs/brainfuck-in-snap-blocks.png
13:34:15 <jayCampbell> speaking of "less good programming", is anybody working with AST parsing, manipulation or code generation?
13:34:24 <fizzie> What does a 'warp' block doo?
13:35:27 <Jafet> Random thought: is there a visual programming tool that can import programs from their screenshots
13:35:44 <Taneb> jayCampbell, it makes screen update asynchronous, I think
13:36:36 <jayCampbell> jafet with imperfect OCR it'd be nearly useless, like a cat making random changes to bytes of your code
13:37:01 <Jafet> Since the text is drawn by computer, that shouldn't be a problem.
13:37:09 <jayCampbell> if it's a screenshot of code and not a camera pic, yeah, should be easy
13:37:28 <jayCampbell> in this case i have an xml to back up the screenshot
13:37:51 <jayCampbell> snap has a Publish button but i can't find anywhere they're published to
13:38:24 <Taneb> Have you tried pressing the button
13:39:27 <fizzie> Taneb: I have a "launch the nukes" button but I can't find anywhere they're fired to.
13:41:18 <Jafet> Have you tried launching the nukes in debug mode?
13:41:28 <Taneb> jayCampbell, does it crash in the same place?
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13:48:20 <Taneb> I can't even remember how mine works
13:48:35 <Taneb> (although it's certainly not complicated, I just haven't touched it in 5 years)
13:49:44 <Taneb> I normally write small programs for fun rather than impressive things
13:50:41 <Taneb> Although I am still proud I wrote solutions to Project Euler problems that worked decently in Scratch
13:51:17 <fungot> fizzie: then how do you save files in emacs?
13:51:28 <Taneb> I did write an intentionally quartic time fizzbuzz in Haskell recently
13:51:41 <fizzie> fungot: C-x C-s, just like anyone else.
13:51:42 <fungot> fizzie: s/ duct tape/ glue with fnord fnord..." is
13:52:15 <Taneb> https://github.com/AbstractBeliefs/BadBuzz/blob/master/Haskell/Taneb2.hs
13:53:20 <jayCampbell> [09:52] <Taneb> I normally write small programs for fun rather than impressive things
14:04:59 <jayCampbell> for a kindergartener or a brainfuck interpreter
14:10:10 <mroman_> There should be a self-interpreting factor
14:10:28 <mroman_> Given a brainfuck program P and a self-interpreter S
14:10:33 <mroman_> count the cycles S(P) takes
14:10:47 <mroman_> x0=S(P),x1=S(S(P),x2=S(S(S(P)) and so on
14:11:12 <Taneb> jayCampbell, that sounds like an improvement
14:11:51 <mroman_> oh. my irssi buffer was behind. :(
14:13:43 <Jafet> Your buffers are indeed behind: http://eigenratios.blogspot.com
14:15:37 <Taneb> Can any real number be represented as a continued fraction with all numerators set to 1?
14:18:19 <Jafet> At every step you have a real number in the range [0, 1), so it is always possible.
14:22:44 <Jafet> > let cfrac x = let n = floor x in n : cfrac (1/(x-n)) in cfrac (pi::CReal)
14:22:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (Integral CReal) arising from a use of ‘cfrac’
14:22:45 <lambdabot> In the expression: cfrac (pi :: CReal)
14:22:56 <Jafet> > let cfrac x = let n = floor x in n : cfrac (1/(x-fromInteger n)) in cfrac (pi::CReal)
14:23:16 <Jafet> Ugh, creal is so inefficient
14:23:25 <Jafet> > let cfrac x = let n = floor x in n : cfrac (1/(x-fromInteger n)) in take 100 $ cfrac (pi::CReal)
14:23:31 <Jafet> > let cfrac x = let n = floor x in n : cfrac (1/(x-fromInteger n)) in take 10 $ cfrac (pi::CReal)
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14:24:48 <Jafet> Also, that probably isn't the best conversion algorithm either
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15:28:39 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
15:32:25 <jayCampbell> <Jafet> > let cfrac x = let n = floor x in n : cfrac (1/(x-fromInteger n)) in take 10 $ cfrac (pi::CReal)
15:37:22 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
15:38:26 <Jafet> `ln wisdom/haskell{,\'}
15:38:26 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/haskell{,\\\'}': No such file or directory
15:38:33 <Jafet> `` ln wisdom/haskell{,\'}
15:40:35 <jayCampbell> Scientists Develop Nutritious Seaweed That Tastes Like Bacon
15:40:47 <jayCampbell> everybody go home, we're done with science
15:43:22 <Jafet> Scientists develop nutritious human that tastes like seaweed
15:44:15 <Taneb> Scientists develop nutritious bacon that tastes like human
15:44:59 <Jafet> Nutritious bacon? Impressive.
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16:55:23 <Taneb> jayCampbell, http://i.imgur.com/ADdkS1P.png
16:55:35 <Taneb> Haven't implemented input yet
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17:00:21 <jayCampbell> bf +++++++++++>+>>>>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++<<<<<<[>[>>>>>>+>+<<<<<<<-]>>>>>>>[<<<<<<<+>>>>>>>-]<[>++++++++++[-<-[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]+<[>[-]<[-]]>[<<[>>>+<<<-]>>[-]]<<]>>>[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]+<[>[-]<[-]]>[<<+>>[-]]<<<<<<<]>>>>>[++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]]++++++++++<[->-<]>++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-]<<<<<<<<<<<<[>>>+>
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17:02:46 <fizzie> It's the silliest thing that both fungot's internal and display formats for bf code do the RLEish thing, but the input doesn't. :/
17:02:47 <fungot> fizzie: unless you're in one of the references on olin shivers' phd theses are good starts for the basis, and cursors can trivially be implemented in an optimized way of doing it was.))
17:03:10 <Taneb> jayCampbell, can you send me a link?
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17:25:42 <Taneb> jayCampbell, can you please send me a link to the fib program pleae?
17:35:13 <Taneb> Is it http://www.hevanet.com/cristofd/brainfuck/fib.b ?
17:35:19 <Taneb> Because it runs that correctly
17:38:46 <Taneb> jayCampbell, now with input: http://i.imgur.com/qd5o8Rj.png
17:40:04 <Taneb> It also does Hello world through Dbfi
17:41:13 * oerjan learns that while ghc doesn't ensure global coherence for class instances, it does so for type family instances
17:42:00 <oerjan> or in other words, someone already thought of my latest unsafeCoerce idea.
17:45:25 <Taneb> jayCampbell, here is XML: http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/bf_snap.xml
17:47:16 <jayCampbell> you replace instructions in-place with jump addresses, nift
17:49:09 <Taneb> I use the sign bit to tell if it is a forward jump or backward jump
17:49:18 <Taneb> But the addresses are absolute
17:54:03 <Taneb> jayCampbell, if you can think of any improvements, feel free
17:54:41 <Taneb> Oooh, that's a bug
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18:06:03 <Taneb> jayCampbell, there is at least one bug in this program
18:06:25 <jayCampbell> mine too still, i keep spitting out non-primes
18:06:49 <Taneb> What bf program are you running?
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18:09:41 <Taneb> That would explain why it's printing non-primes :)
18:11:03 <jayCampbell> it was working 4 hours ago [10:09] <jayCampbell> 1,1,2,3,5,8,13,21
18:13:34 <jayCampbell> i was going to put jump addresses in two pairs of arrays (index and pointer, left and right)
18:14:29 <jayCampbell> then integers in the command stream could be optimized collapses of ++++++++ and -------
18:19:18 <jayCampbell> http://snap.berkeley.edu/snapsource/snap.html#present:Username=jens&ProjectName=funny%20face
18:20:13 <jayCampbell> so mine is http://snap.berkeley.edu/snapsource/snap.html#present:Username=jayCampbell&ProjectName=brainfuck
18:22:04 <jayCampbell> it shows the canvas, not the dev environment
18:22:55 <jayCampbell> here's some stuff from jens https://plus.google.com/+JensM%C3%B6nig/posts
18:24:34 <jayCampbell> oh the dev env is there, canvas starts maximized
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18:43:31 <mauris> for a thingy with a lambda as its logo this seems awfully imperative/procedural
18:44:59 <HackEgo> tvtrope/We'll write about TVTropes here, we just have to finish these tabs first.
18:45:02 <Taneb> mauris, it does support functional programming which was originally what set it apart from Scratch
18:45:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:JayCampbell]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43554&oldid=12931 * JayCampbell * (+244)
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18:49:01 <HackEgo> character/A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulus 1.
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18:55:03 <Jafet> Some species can thrive in such artificial environments, such as topologists (homo topi).
19:02:17 <mauris> http://i.stack.imgur.com/T7qLM.png
19:02:48 <mauris> i honestly can't tell if this is a mathematica joke or a mathematica proof-of-"why-would-you-do-that"-ness
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20:01:30 <lambdabot> LOWI 171950Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW030 SCT060 BKN180 17/16 Q1025 NOSIG
20:02:04 <oerjan> one more and you'd be swimming
20:06:56 <lambdabot> EGLL 171950Z 28008KT CAVOK 19/10 Q1013 NOSIG
20:07:07 <fizzie> It says it's not humid, but it sure doesn't feel that way.
20:07:19 <fizzie> Actually outside it was surprisingly pleasant at sunset time.
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20:27:06 <fizzie> Translation now is to help the computer ferocious landing force.
20:34:58 <Jafet> Attention all passengers, this is captain fungot speaking. We are currently experiencing a ferocious landing force.
20:34:58 <fungot> Jafet: is there any difference between that and a reference to its object representation. ( the fnord takes the stream to write to a pipe isn't exactly rocket science.
20:39:09 <int-e> fungot: you're disturbingly good at imitating IRC chatter
20:39:09 <fungot> int-e: what more do you expect him to cognitively work better.
20:39:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
20:40:34 <int-e> . o O ( but the fnord giveth it away )
20:40:50 <HackEgo> log/I think you might mean !logs
20:42:45 <HackEgo> [U+2D88 ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE NOA]
20:42:56 <tswett> Man, the neural net got that one completely wrong.
20:43:08 <tswett> It identified that character as "U+033/ ANDHIYNOIN ODGOAT SOL UNINULE CHArGE FOOF".
20:43:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: coin: not found
20:44:02 <int-e> `` coins # or is this the wrong bot?
20:44:03 <HackEgo> boidcoin memblecoin comfgcoin braidcoin .coin befuckcoin sureheadcoin wakecoin magnifullvcoin smillicoin noobabtizedcoin hargaturklincoin uelyfaitaffriecoin rewcoin tungercoin auckycoin myoycoin abccoin ascucoin bfpcoin
20:44:04 <HackEgo> ><>coin concoin persublingcoin drainfuchcoin posioncacoin tercoin aatesyzcoin crafcoin metrucoin truircoin trudecoin devissimcoin optehinncoin extcoin eloquackcoin iintecoin treedcoin xnveycoin intencoin levcoin
20:44:19 <int-e> ><>coin <-- wouldn't trust that one
20:44:40 <tswett> As my grandpa used to say: "Don't take no ASCII fish nickels."
20:44:53 <HackEgo> words ${1---eng-1M --esolangs 20} | sed -re 's/( |$)/coin\1/g' | rainwords
20:45:20 <Jafet> ><> is a rather fishy word
20:45:47 <int-e> "noobabtized" is a cute word though
20:47:18 <Jafet> .coin sounds better for SEO than befuckcoin.
20:48:50 <oerjan> depends on your target group
20:50:56 <HackEgo> lambdabot/lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
20:51:01 <HackEgo> tswett tswett kmc oerjan elliott oerjan FireFly ion kmc kmc
20:53:28 <tswett> Eh? When did I edit it?
20:56:39 <int-e> <tswett> rm bin -r <tswett> revert
20:57:06 <int-e> you'll be getting a lot of credit for that :)
20:58:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43555&oldid=43553 * Phase * (+200) /* Examples */ another example
20:58:54 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins because he's so bad at following directions.
20:59:33 <HackEgo> cat: caa: No such file or directory
21:00:53 <int-e> . o O ( `learn_append tswett he invented bin/*. )
21:01:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: *: not found
21:02:24 <tswett> Come to think of it, the entire Cold War seems kind of like history, too.
21:02:35 -!- `^_^v has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:03:52 <int-e> `` echo 'echo $(ls bin | shuf -n 1) $*' > bin/\*
21:03:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/*: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/*: cannot execute: Permission denied
21:04:09 <int-e> `` chmod +x bin/\*
21:04:44 * int-e doesn't dare to `` sed -i s/echo.// bin/\*
21:05:32 <HackEgo> ̊ :-( 0 113500 a a.o a.out argv.py bdsmreclist bin blah blah \ blah blah \ blah \ blah canary cat Complaints :-D dc dog emoticons error.log etc factor faith fu head hello hello.c hi hours ibin index.html?dl=1812 interps le letersort lib MaFV paste people.py pref prefs py.py quines quotes random_elliott real script.ppy script.py selflink share s
21:06:39 <int-e> `culpritz people.py
21:06:41 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culpritz: not found
21:06:43 <int-e> `culprits people.py
21:07:19 <HackEgo> shuf: read error: Is a directory
21:08:09 <Taneb> int-e, I don't remember doing that
21:09:13 <int-e> Taneb: <Taneb> echo "! ls" > dc -e ? <-- doesn't look intentional anyway
21:11:00 <int-e> `` echo $(cat emoticons/*)
21:11:01 <HackEgo> lol 凸 ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ (°Д°) (≧∇≦)/ ¯\(°_o)/¯ ーー蟲蟲 オラオラオラ（三･o･）三☆三（｀ε´三）無駄無駄無駄無駄
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21:35:56 <b_jonas> My copy of the Hacker's Delight (2014) book has arrived today, great
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22:27:29 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIAAAAAAAAIAIAIAIAIAIAIAIAIAIIIIIIIIIIIIIAAAAAAAH!
22:36:22 <boily> I'm sorry, I won't be able to border lands with you tomorrow :(
22:37:24 <quintopia> you would be a happier person if you went to chicago next weekend
22:38:08 <boily> hmm... that's extremely tempting. I could use some real pizza.
22:39:44 <boily> I got AC. sweet, cold AC.
22:40:00 * boily hugs his AC unit «toi et moi, on est fait pour être ensemble»
22:41:43 <lambdabot> KATL 172152Z 30009KT 10SM FEW055 33/21 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP143 CB DSNT SE T03330206
22:41:48 <fungot> boily: i'll take a look at
22:42:09 <boily> fungot: a quick look, I hope. otherwise you'll be sublimated. have you seen that?!?
22:42:09 <fungot> boily: bubble sort is the canonical truth value.
22:42:21 <boily> quintopia: sort bubbles. apparently it's refreshing.
22:42:28 <lambdabot> CYUL 172200Z 15006KT 15SM OVC100 23/14 A2994 RMK AC8 SLP139 DENSITY ALT 1100FT
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22:58:18 <quintopia> well i have arrived. lemme know when youd like to reschedule for
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23:10:20 <boily> will keep you updated for when my schedule settles down.
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23:25:46 <oren> er, good evening
23:32:57 <oren> regular brainfuck: uses only characters *\[]+-/. matches a string if, as a regex, it matches the shortest string of + - and . that would print that string if interpreted as a brainfuck program
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23:36:25 <oren> e.g. the regebf '\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+\+' matches a single '!'
23:37:09 <oren> well that's actually an extended regebf
23:38:53 <oren> hmm wait no you need the following chraters only: ?\+-[]
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00:08:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43556&oldid=43396 * InputUsername * (+227) Added GScript, implementation of GolfScript
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00:12:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43557&oldid=43556 * InputUsername * (+61)
00:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43558&oldid=43557 * InputUsername * (+6) Added break
00:18:17 <boily> oren: you should extend these regexpes à la perl, with an "e" switch.
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01:10:33 <pikhq> An initial review of working at Google: this is the most exhausting tech job.
01:11:54 <oren> Oh, it's like 6:15 in California right now, you just got off work?
01:12:32 <pikhq> Been off a little bit.
01:14:12 <oren> really.. my work starts at 10 and ends at 6 (so that there's more overlap with the california people)
01:15:43 <oren> some of the poeple in the toronto office work from 11-7 or 12-8 even. crazy
01:16:17 <oren> 12-8 would I think be the same as california 9-5
01:17:20 <fowl> G told me i should write more java
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01:32:24 <boily> 8:30-5:00 is the best, even earlier if possible.
01:32:58 <boily> quiet and fresh mornings without too much traffic, nice bike rides...
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02:12:45 <oren> how do you get rid of ants
02:13:53 <fowl> Pour sugar water on the ground
02:14:01 <fowl> They cant stand the stuff
02:14:29 <oren> That's what I did to get the ants
02:14:44 <oren> Now I need to get wird of them tdnh
02:16:01 <oren> I'm going to try boiling water
02:16:33 <oren> hmm it's killing them...
02:17:49 <oren> hopefully these ants having been boiled alive will send a message to the ant queen that her progeny are not wlcome in my home
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04:57:45 <zzo38> Are some people on today?
04:59:33 <zzo38> I still do not know how long it take until my HTTP and gopher services are available again. However one thing to be concern about is possibly the HTTP service will be changed into case-sensitive, so please take that into account in case something doesn't work
04:59:53 <zzo38> I have digital music in my VCR
05:00:30 <zzo38> It says I have a lot of digital channels, but most of them don't work, and most of them that do work have no picture. Do you know why?
05:01:48 <zzo38> I can tell you one idea I had, to make up a "second-level VM" for implementing Z-machine
05:02:38 <zzo38> So there is one main program, but the stuff of differences of ZIP, EZIP, XZIP, YZIP, and possibly even DIP and Inform, in other file it loads and then also load story file
05:09:06 <zzo38> My ideas there are two address spaces but the code and data are stored in the same address space instead of in different one.
05:09:45 <zzo38> It is sort of like a microcode system I suppose, one address space is like the microcode (except that it isn't, but it is kind of like a similar idea)
05:11:34 <zzo38> Also I looked at TempleOS a bit recently; one thing it has that I like is the #exe command.
05:14:11 <fowl> HolyC and Red Sea Filesystem lol
05:14:43 <fowl> zzo38 you should see his YouTube videos, specifically his replies to replies to his YouTube videos, hilarious
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05:18:25 <zzo38> What VM is use for the purpose mainly to run a class of other VM?
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05:46:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hanoi Love]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43559&oldid=43473 * Rdebath * (-27) Smaller Hello world example
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07:05:24 <lambdabot> LOWI 180650Z VRB03KT 9999 FEW080 18/15 Q1023 NOSIG
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07:45:57 <FireFly> `` for f in bin/*; do culprits "$f" | grep -q FireFly && echo "$f"; done
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07:57:27 <Jafet> `` for f in bin/*; do culprits "$f" | tr -cd a-zA-z | grep -q FireFly && echo "$f"; done
08:02:14 <FireFly> `` for f in bin/*; do culprits "$f" | grep -q FireFly && echo "$f"; done | tr -cd \[:print:]
08:02:31 <shachaf> Isn't it too late to tr after the grep?
08:03:22 <shachaf> perhaps our low-tech hero ireFl can help here
08:03:34 <shachaf> Though I'm guessing that maybe it's just a timeout.
08:06:12 <shachaf> Oddly enough, that works here.
08:06:15 <Jafet> I wanted to be different, just in case.
08:12:23 <Sgeo_> I still don't grok Erlang/Elixir OTP
08:12:53 <Sgeo_> Like, do most applications used named processes? Wouldn't this mean that two applications could end up conflicting if internal process names conflict?
08:13:11 <Sgeo_> Aren't named processes a form of global state?
08:31:57 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' | xargs -n 1 echo | sort -u | xargs
08:31:59 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 37: missing command
08:32:05 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/p' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' | xargs -n 1 echo | sort -u | xargs
08:38:09 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat --removed bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/p' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' | xargs -n 1 echo | sort -u | xargs
08:39:03 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat --removed bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/p' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' xargs -n 1
08:39:20 <HackEgo> grep: xargs: No such file or directory \ grep: 1: No such file or directory
08:40:08 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat --removed bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/p' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' | xargs -n 1
08:40:33 <HackEgo> bin/döts \ bin/wisdöm \ bin/döts \ bin/döts \ bin/döts \ bin/culprits \ bin/culprits \ bin/culprits \ bin/culprits \ bin/culprits \ bin/culprits \ bin/wlcm \ bin/wlcmr \ bin/wlcm \ bin/wlcmr \ bin/coins \ bin/r13elcome \ bin/runcpp \ bin/runcpp \ bin/runcpp \ bin/ls \ bin/olist \ bin/olist \ bin/welcome \ bin/it \ bin/pastelog \ bin/! \ bin/!
08:41:02 <Jafet> `r13elcome FireFly
08:41:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: r13elcome: not found
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10:22:26 <Jafet> `` echo $'#!python\ns=set()\ntry:\n while True:\n l=raw_input()\n if l not in s:\n s.add(l)\n print(l)\nexcept IOError:\n pass' > bin/uniqs && chmod +x bin/uniqs
10:22:43 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat --removed bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/p' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' | xargs -n 1 | uniqs | xargs
10:23:11 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/uniqs: python: bad interpreter: No such file or directory \ \ xargs: /bin/echo: terminated by signal 13
10:23:40 <Jafet> `` sed -i -e 's,python,/usr/bin/python,' bin/uniqs
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10:24:13 <Jafet> `` culprits bin/culprits | xargs -n 1 | uniqs | xargs
10:24:15 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "/hackenv/bin/uniqs", line 5, in <module> \ l=raw_input() \ EOFError: EOF when reading a line \ Jafet tswett shachaf FireFly
10:24:45 <Jafet> `` sed -i -e 's,IOError,EOFError,' bin/uniqs
10:24:59 <Jafet> `` hg log --stat --removed bin | sed -n '/summary: *<FireFly>/,/files changed/p' | grep -Po '(?<=^ )[^|]+(?=\| +[0-9]+ )' | xargs -n 1 | uniqs | xargs
10:25:25 <HackEgo> bin/döts bin/wisdöm bin/culprits bin/wlcm bin/wlcmr bin/coins bin/r13elcome bin/runcpp bin/ls bin/olist bin/welcome bin/it bin/pastelog bin/!
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11:05:39 <oerjan> `döts is this thing on?
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12:12:21 <HackEgo> zzö38/zzö38 ïs nöẗ äcẗüällÿ ẗḧë nëẍẗ vërsïön öf füngöẗ, mücḧ äs ïẗ mäÿ sëëm.
12:14:33 <ais523> the IOCCC has started, btw
12:14:41 <ais523> they decided to announce that it had started some time after it actually started
12:22:46 <fizzie> We had a heated (fsvo) discussion about that on-channel soon after the announcement.
12:23:26 <fizzie> The end of getting a funny timestamp justifies the means, I guess.
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12:45:23 <ais523> wow, the latest version of GNU yes is over 60 times faster than the previous version
12:45:50 <ais523> I'm surprised that a) there was such scope for optimization, and b) that optimizing yes is something that people actually cared about
12:49:48 <jayCampbell> it matters if you're using yes to fill up a file
12:50:50 <jayCampbell> i'm making this up based on the fact i've only used yes to fill free space on partitions
12:51:59 <ais523> they claimed it might matter if using yes to generate source data as part of a testsuite
12:52:24 <ais523> also, why did you want to exhaust all free space on the partition?
12:52:42 <fizzie> Perhaps /dev/full was broken.
12:53:34 <Jafet> The only time you should use `yes' for test data is when running the test suite for `yes'...
12:54:15 <Jafet> Perhaps there should be a /dev/pseudorandom.
12:54:27 <fizzie> A "repeat source" mode for dd might make sense. It already has quite a few options/conversions.
12:54:40 <ais523> fizzie: I don't think you can /read/ from /dev/full…
12:54:48 <fizzie> ais523: You can, but you only read zeros.
12:54:53 <ais523> ah right, that makes sense
12:55:09 <ais523> come to think of it, this implies that /dev/zero could sensibly be removed
12:55:25 <ais523> because it reads like /dev/full and writes like /dev/null, so both halves of its functionality are available elsewhere
12:55:47 <ais523> (/dev/null reads as a zero-length file, right?)
12:56:14 <fizzie> Yes. At least as far as plain reads are concerned.
12:56:21 <fizzie> I'm not sure whether it seeks like a zero-length file.
12:57:07 <jayCampbell> ais523: poor man's disk scrubber for server customers
12:57:23 <ais523> jayCampbell: you know of shred, right?
12:57:30 <ais523> admittedly it doesn't work properly on SSDs
12:57:38 <jayCampbell> you know they had servers back in the 90s right
12:57:46 <ais523> but then, overwriting with alternate "y" and "\n" doesn't work with SSDs either
12:58:01 <ais523> shread's been around for ages, I think
12:58:20 <ais523> would be surprised if it wasn't around in the 90s
12:59:15 <ais523> I assumed that shred was part of POSIX
12:59:18 <ais523> perhaps it isn't though
12:59:43 <ais523> its documentation cites the algo as being based on a paper published in 1996, so it perhaps hasn't been around as long as I thought
12:59:45 <jayCampbell> /dev/pseudorandom is a one-liner with fuse
13:00:00 <Jafet> You use `yes' to scrub disks, not dd (disk destroyer)?
13:00:24 <jayCampbell> there was other valid data still on the disk
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13:02:48 <Jafet> Yes yes, it's clear that you've used yes.
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13:05:41 <Jafet> The shred info manual doesn't seem to mention flash storage anywhere
13:06:02 <jayCampbell> yes 01234567890123456789 |head -n 40 > grid.txt
13:06:35 <jayCampbell> flash is tricky because there's a raid-like controller between you and the disk
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13:07:03 <jayCampbell> the bits you overwrite may not actually be overwritten
13:08:00 <jayCampbell> so you can't overwrite the flash drive of a laptop with medical records on it reliably
13:08:28 <jayCampbell> hijacking the controller gives you access to the raw reassigned bits
13:08:56 <Jafet> It's probably cheaper at that point to (physically) shred it
13:09:29 <tswett> Some neural net-generated METAR: EGGW 231420Z 10000KT 9999 FEW009 09/04 Q1004 NOSIG
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13:10:48 <jayCampbell> 9mm dies would result in stadium-sized chips
13:11:05 <oerjan> tswett: i can believe that's the weather in luton
13:11:51 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luton_Airport
13:12:50 <tswett> So that's apparently the London Luton airport. It's 14:20 UTC on the 23rd. The wind is coming from 100 degrees and has a speed of 0 knots.
13:14:50 <tswett> Prevailing visibility is 9999 meters. FEW009 is probably a cloud layer; I'll come back to that one. The temperature is 9 C and the dewpoint is 4 C.
13:15:32 <tswett> Altimeter setting is 1004 hPa. No significant changes expected in the next two hours.
13:18:54 <tswett> All right. There are a few clouds, with the base of the cloud layer at 900 feet.
13:20:33 <lambdabot> KGRR 181253Z 19005KT 10SM BKN200 BKN250 24/21 A2988 RMK AO2 SLP111 T02390211
13:28:14 <lambdabot> TISX 181253Z 11010KT 10SM SCT021 29/21 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP178 T02890211
13:34:42 <ais523> so at what point does the neural net actually start predicting the weather accurately?
13:35:39 <jayCampbell> does it have access to a modeling system or does it have to figure that out itself
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13:41:44 <lambdabot> CYYZ 181300Z 31004KT 260V320 9SM BKN005 22/20 A2988 RMK SF6 SLP116 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
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15:00:58 <oren> xoff ignored mumble mumble
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15:29:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 181520Z 08008KT 050V120 9999 SCT070 FEW070CB BKN140 30/15 Q1017 TEMPO FM1600 27015G25KT
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15:46:16 <pikhq> It sucks to apparently have scoliosis.
15:48:52 <Taneb> I hope it turns out it's something less scary
15:49:01 <pikhq> Scoliosis isn't that scary.
15:49:08 <pikhq> You might be thinking sclerosis.
15:49:18 <pikhq> Scoliosis is the disorder where your spine is curved wrong.
15:50:40 <pikhq> Scoliosis, except when profoundly severe, mostly just means that you hurt and might have issues with certain physical movements.
15:51:02 <pikhq> It *sucks*, but in terms of long-term prognosis or anything that's mostly it.
15:51:13 <Taneb> I might be thinking of sciatica
15:51:29 <pikhq> Scoliosis is just a consequence of the human back being shit. :)
15:51:38 <Taneb> Oh, that's a relief
15:51:55 <pikhq> Something like 3% of the population has it to some degree.
15:52:59 <Taneb> Don't make me worry like that! :(
15:53:13 <pikhq> But yeah. Recently noticed that I have a noticably curved back, along with my freaking right scapula jutting out. (that HURTS)
15:53:16 <coppro> but it's very minor and not an issue to me
15:53:27 <pikhq> And then found out I've got a family history of it.
15:53:48 <coppro> and you're somewhere where it's not cheap to get it fixed...
15:54:03 <pikhq> The scapula jutting out is not a new observation, FWIW
15:54:09 <pikhq> coppro: Yes, but I work for Google.
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15:55:00 <pikhq> Which is almost like living in a civilized country.
15:55:54 <coppro> pikhq: ah yeah, that'll help :)
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16:06:56 <oren> my mom has a steel rod holding her back straight
16:10:39 <oren> maybe you can get one?
16:10:59 <coppro> that's the common way to solve a scoliosis
16:11:13 <pikhq> Depends. They might not recommend surgery though.
16:11:20 <pikhq> It depends on the spinal curvature.
16:11:23 <coppro> it's only used in major cases though
16:11:41 <pikhq> Bit more common is stuff like braces.
16:11:48 <pikhq> And physical therapy.
16:12:27 <pikhq> (you can to some extent effect it/reduce chance of progression with carefully designed exercise routines)
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17:11:38 <oren> rdococ:herp derp
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17:16:51 <fizzie> I think it's a shame that Wacom doesn't have their website at wa.com.
17:17:21 <fizzie> If you have a TLD (a real one, not one of these newfangled ones) at the end of your name anyway, you should take advantage of it.
17:18:37 <oren> I was disappointed to find that there isn't .on
17:19:02 <oren> So I got orenwatson.be because belgian domains are cheap
17:19:07 <fizzie> Admittedly wa.com's been there since 1988, so maybe they'd have to have been very quick in adopting all this e-commerce stuff. But currently wa.com seems to be an empty website with only the text "WA.com" on it, registered by "XXI Ventures Limited", and that looks like a waste.
17:19:11 <_256Q> I was under the impreson you could have .anything at this point
17:19:41 <oren> only if you pay a lot I think
17:20:00 <fizzie> Yes, and I'm not sure they allow two-letter names for the new TLDs.
17:20:17 <fizzie> Just so that if ISO assigns a new alpha-2 country code at some point, it won't conflict.
17:20:43 <oren> ontario should secede ao that I can have a .on
17:20:59 <fizzie> There's a handy table at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-1_alpha-2#Decoding_table -- there's actually quite a few gaps.
17:21:19 <fizzie> oren: They'd give it .zq or something out of pique.
17:22:09 <_256Q> whats .io's deal? (honestly know very little about it, just gleaned that genraly it relates to something)
17:22:45 <oren> .io is very expensive (somehtin like $40). it is used for api's and new javascript b ullshit
17:23:19 <oren> toronto should have .yz
17:23:53 <oren> I think it's basically demand that determines it
17:24:06 <fizzie> It's officially "British Indian Ocean Territory".
17:24:27 <fizzie> "-- an overseas territory of the United Kingdom situated in the Indian Ocean halfway between Tanzania and Indonesia."
17:25:01 <fizzie> Good old British empire, I'd say, if I wasn't just a filthy immigrant here in UK.
17:25:15 <ais523> fizzie: you can admire the British empire despite being an immigrant
17:25:17 <ais523> I mean, someone has to
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17:26:05 <oren> I like the british empire but only some parts like the queeen
17:27:39 <oren> .ai is available but it costs 100$ a year
17:29:14 <fizzie> I had misremembered that the sun was now setting on the empire, but apparently it doesn't quite yet.
17:29:58 <fizzie> "Every night, around midnight GMT, the Sun sets on the Cayman Islands, and doesn't rise over the British Indian Ocean Territory until after 1:00 AM. For that hour, the little Pitcairn Islands in the South Pacific are the only British territory in the Sun. The Pitcairn Islands have a population of a few dozen people, the descendants of the mutineers from the HMS Bounty. The islands became ...
17:30:04 <fizzie> ... notorious in 2004 when a third of the adult male population, including the mayor, were convicted of child sexual abuse." (xkcd what-if)
17:30:05 <oren> technically it never does, especially if you count the antarctic britsh territory and the northernmost part of canasa
17:31:08 <oren> Wait that's the commonwealth
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17:32:01 <oren> Canada claims a pie-slice reaching up to the pole
17:32:26 <fizzie> Yes, apparently only the territories count for this.
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17:48:04 <oren> wubwubwubwubwubwub
17:57:30 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9imR1SZs_Ek
17:57:58 <oren> are youtube video ids base64 numbers?
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17:58:54 <oren> hmm... apparently not
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18:07:37 <Walpurgisnacht> I'm so tired I frel like I'm gonna melt But I can't go to sleep cuz its day and that unproductive
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18:11:55 <ais523> trying to do something useful while tired is also typically unproductive
18:14:16 <oren> then have a tetraspresso
18:15:35 <oren> (a form of coffee I invented. four espresso shots + maple syrup, milk and whipped cream)
18:16:02 <oren> it is served in a giant tall glass
18:17:59 <oren> if you don't have espresso, you can use instant coffee, just triple the amount it says to use on the label
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18:20:22 <oren> I prefer the prefix tetra to quad
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18:51:24 <fowl> Is there a list of numeric prefixes
18:51:40 <ais523> fowl: basically just Latin and Greek numbers
18:52:08 <fowl> Una, duo, tri, quadra, penta, septa, ??
18:53:26 <oren> eka- dvi- tri- chatur- pancha-
18:54:01 <oren> guess what language that was
18:54:08 <fowl> Eh whats six then
18:54:28 <oren> sanscrit, yeah
18:54:45 <oren> used by mendeleev for his predicted elements
18:55:04 <fowl> I start counting at 0 though
18:55:49 <ais523> or sometimes seg-, because an x can become a g in some contexts in Latin
18:57:20 <Jafet> If you bird-brains learned to count from 1 instead, you could count one higher.
18:58:07 <oren> e.g. germanium was called eka-silicon and rhenium dvi-manganese
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18:58:31 <oren> so the original element is the zeroth
19:03:17 <oren> Therefore, Flerovium could be called eka-Lead, dvi-Tin, tri-Germanium, chatur-Silicon, or pancha-Carbon
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19:08:25 <fowl> If \00 is 1 then 1-1 overflows?
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20:45:48 <oren> Does your font pass the Dwarf Fortress test?
20:45:50 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/dffonttest.utf8
20:47:26 <Jafet> Sounds like a test that can end only in failure.
20:50:36 <oren> GNU Unifont passes the test, as do my Dwarf-Fortress specific fonts, but most of my other fonts fail
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20:53:32 <oerjan> @tell Gregor glogbot could still do with a proper time setting, now it's 3-4 minutes late
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20:54:18 <oren> Is there a way to control which fonts my system falls back to?
20:55:39 <oren> I could use a lot of other fonts if I could make them fall back to GNU Unifont
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21:20:42 <oren> Even UTF-8 is easier in octal! why is everything easier in octal!
21:22:41 <Jafet> You don't need thumbs for them.
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21:23:39 <Jafet> I think a scandinavian king tried to promote octal
21:25:03 <oren> Really! Well he was ahead of his time
21:25:16 <Jafet> Too far ahead, it seems.
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21:39:51 <oerjan> sadly his reign was cut short by the evil witch Hexa
21:41:16 <oerjan> and after that the people were so fed up that they decimated their remaining followers.
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21:43:39 <oerjan> read all about this in the famous Áttatal epic
21:48:08 <fizzie> "It's nice to be / an astral squirrel / nothing to worry / everything's so easy", like the song goes.
21:48:18 <fizzie> I'm not sure how I got from octal to there.
21:49:00 <oerjan> i guess you went astra(ll)y
21:49:35 <fizzie> It rhymes better in Finnish, in case anyone was wondering.
21:50:50 <oerjan> are there many astral squirrels in finland
21:51:17 <fizzie> "On kiva olla / astraaliorava / ei huolet paina / kaikki on niin helppoa." Okay, maybe it's not all that.. rhymirric?
21:51:24 <fizzie> There are those glidey ones.
21:51:52 <fizzie> Apparently it's just "flying squirrel" in English.
21:53:33 <HackEgo> U+A754 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P WITH SQUIRREL TAIL \ UTF-8: ea 9d 94 UTF-16BE: a754 Decimal: Ꝕ \ Ꝕ (ꝕ) \ Lowercase: U+A755 \ Category: Lu (Letter, Uppercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+A755 LATIN SMALL LETTER P WITH SQUIRREL TAIL \ UTF-8: ea 9d 95 UTF-16BE: a755 Decimal: ꝕ \ ꝕ (Ꝕ) \ Uppercase: U+A754 \ Category: Ll (Le
21:54:04 <oerjan> `` unicode SQUIRREL | grep SQUIRREL
21:54:05 <HackEgo> U+A754 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P WITH SQUIRREL TAIL \ U+A755 LATIN SMALL LETTER P WITH SQUIRREL TAIL
21:54:26 <oerjan> are those at least astral characters
21:54:45 <fizzie> Is that pronounced as "squippel"?
21:55:00 <fizzie> Which, I think, has something to do with the legal term 'estoppel'.
21:58:01 <fizzie> I think that was proposed, with the obvious semantics.
21:58:44 <fizzie> Nobody seems to want the odd number of bytes.
21:59:32 <fizzie> Possibly because it would be more wasteful (or at least no better) than UTF-8 for the vast majority of scripts for storage/transfer, and it's awkward wrt. alignment for in-memory use.
22:01:17 <oren> Well maybe we should assign some code points to U10000000 and tell the people who use UTF-16 to go fuck themselves
22:01:17 <Jafet> It would be most efficient for emoji, though
22:01:41 <fizzie> There is no U10000000, though.
22:02:05 <oren> but UTF-8 could encode it
22:02:19 <fizzie> That's really arguable, and per my definition, no, it couldn't.
22:02:28 <fizzie> The obvious extension of UTF-8 could.
22:03:57 <fizzie> (And old versions of.)
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22:10:11 <oren> ` xxd -rp <<<'f9b0b0b0b00a'
22:10:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
22:10:19 <oren> `` xxd -rp <<<'f9b0b0b0b00a'
22:10:56 <HackEgo> xxd V1.10 27oct98 by Juergen Weigert
22:12:45 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'f9b0b0b0b00a'
22:13:09 <oren> well that did not do what it does on my computer
22:13:50 <fizzie> My client just fell back to [U+00E2 LATIN SMALL LETTER A WITH CIRCUMFLEX] [U+20AC EURO SIGN] [U+2039 SINGLE LEFT-POINTING ANGLE QUOTATION MARK] [U+00F9 LATIN SMALL LETTER U WITH GRAVE] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] [U+00B0 DEGREE SIGN] for it.
22:14:25 <fizzie> Actually, that's not a simple fallback (I was looking at the B0's), it's something more complicated.
22:14:43 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'f90a'
22:15:33 <fizzie> Maybe it has something to do with HackEgo's output processing.
22:15:54 <fizzie> It's not quite a full pass-through, although I think it was reasonably "raw".
22:16:27 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'C00a'
22:16:47 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'ff0a'
22:17:13 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'C2A00a'
22:17:18 <fizzie> Oh, of course: it's probably something related to the prefixing of the zero-width whitespace when the output starts with something that could be a command character.
22:17:19 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'C2A50a'
22:17:39 <oren> ok so it does modern utf-8 correctly
22:18:11 <fizzie> It does those other things "correctly" too, I think; it's just that it puts in front a UTF-8 thing.
22:18:59 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'D6A50a'
22:19:05 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'D6650a'
22:19:20 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'D6B50a'
22:20:16 <fizzie> The output is a bit confusing in my client, because if it sees something it doesn't like as UTF-8, it decodes the zero-width space too as ISO-8859-15. But I'd wager the actual bytes would be "all right".
22:20:32 <oren> Basically, if anything in the line doesn't parse as UTF-8 it does something else
22:21:17 <fizzie> No, I think it's your client doing that.
22:22:01 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'D90a' >testend
22:22:14 <fizzie> In my raw(ish) logs, the last two HackEgo outputs are e2 80 8b d6 65 and e2 80 8b d6 b5, which is exactly what you asked for.
22:22:21 <fizzie> With the e2 80 8b prefix.
22:22:29 <fizzie> Uh, and not including that very newest one.
22:22:33 <oren> `` cat <<<'たとえばこのメセージ' >testbegin
22:22:53 <oren> `` cat testbegin
22:22:58 <oren> `` cat testbegin testend
22:24:14 <oren> ok never mind, it is my client, and my client is super dumb
22:24:38 <oren> `` cat testend testbegin
22:25:43 <oerjan> well we all have irssi in this conversation.
22:26:04 <fizzie> irssi's configurable, though.
22:26:07 <oerjan> and mine has recode_fallback = cp1252
22:26:36 <oerjan> which i was recommended when i configured it to do utf-8 properly
22:26:52 <fizzie> I used to have something more custom, when recode was an external script and not built in, but I have that now too.
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22:27:32 <oren> well i don't know what irssi does by default, but that;s what I have
22:32:07 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'E080b1' >testend
22:32:11 <oren> `` xxd -r -p <<<'E080b1'
22:32:36 <oren> Hmm overlong encodings are out too? Awww....
22:34:03 <fizzie> I seem to recall that being arguably a security thing.
22:34:19 <fizzie> Although maybe it's kind of lame.
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22:34:59 <fizzie> Maybe it's really more about having raw comparisons etc. work.
22:35:08 <oren> Well that was supposed to be a 1 that unnacceptably took 3 bytes
22:35:49 <oren> raw comparisons don't even close to work in unicdoe anyway
22:36:42 <oren> but they would be closer to working if every codepoint had only one encoding
22:37:01 <Jafet> It would allow you to write arbitrarily large twitter messages
22:37:06 <fizzie> That's what the normalization forms are for.
22:38:09 <oren> Jafet: Does twitter really count characters?
22:38:40 <fizzie> Anyway, if x and y are canonical equivalents, then their NFC and NFD forms have the exact same representations; if they are compatibility equivalents, then the same applies to NFKC and NFKD.
22:39:53 <oren> ☺☻♥♦♣♠•◘○◙♂♀♪♫☼
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22:40:33 <fizzie> And anyway, every *codepoint* does have only one encoding, at least in all encoding schemes I know of.
22:40:43 <Jafet> I never found out what DF2 uses the musical notes for
22:41:06 <oren> Armor stands and cabinets
22:43:22 <oren> er, no. A cabinet is capital Pi
22:43:43 <oren> Apparently the single note is a ladle
22:45:15 <oren> Not that I have ever seen a ladle in DF
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23:21:30 <oren> Would the combined encoding be called UTF-8-CP-1252?
23:23:20 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/utf8guide.utf8
23:24:58 <oren> WTF-16: encode all code points with surrogates
23:28:01 <oren> WTF-64: encode all code points with surrogates, then encode the surrogates with surrogates, and so on until evey code point has 64 bits
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01:32:09 <oren> The aio_fsync() function shall asynchronously perform a file synchronization operation,
01:34:13 <oren> ok so it actually makes sense, but that first line is ummmmmmm
01:39:00 <oren> basically it queues up a fsync() call to happen after everything else on the fd has finished
01:39:39 <oren> and fsync is actually sort of like a flush
01:39:52 <heddwch> yea, I was just poking some fun at the mind-bending terminology in that realm
01:40:36 <oren> it's the POSIX people... they can't speak plainly to save their lives
01:41:00 <tswett> You can't encode all code points with surrogates. Surrogate pairs only have 10 bits of information, but a Unicode character is 11 bits.
01:41:23 <heddwch> You assume they want to, and POSIX isn't a huge meta-joke about the ridiculousness of stretching unix metaphors for 40 years
01:41:42 <tswett> If the most significant bit is 1, you use a surrogate pair, and the fact that you're using a surrogate pair indicates that the most significant bit is 1.
01:42:01 <tswett> If the most significant bit is 0, you don't use a surrogate pair.
01:44:01 <tswett> If the high surrogate 0xD800 corresponds to the code points starting with 0x010000, the high surrogate 0xD801 corresponds to the code points starting with 0x010400, and so on...
01:45:00 <tswett> I think that by extrapolating, you'd end up saying that the high surrogate 0xD7C0 corresponds to the code points starting with 0x000000.
01:45:09 <tswett> Of course, 0xD7C0 isn't actually a high surrogate.
01:45:18 <oren> Hmm it seems that 0x10000 is encoded with D*01
01:45:21 <oren> Hmm it seems that 0x10000 is encoded with D801
01:45:42 <tswett> But if you're encoding *everything* using surrogates, then using 0xD7C0 as a surrogate is no problem.
01:45:58 <oren> er, no wait read that wrong
01:46:28 <oren> tswett: Hmm, well what is D7C0
01:46:50 <HackEgo> [U+D7C0 HANGUL JUNGSEONG I-YE]
01:47:06 <tswett> I don't know what a jungseong is. Or what a i-ye is.
01:47:12 <tswett> I do know what seuta keulaepeuteu is.
01:47:23 <oren> Wow. that isn;t even in GNU unifont
01:47:44 <tswett> https://translate.google.com/#ko/en/%EC%8A%A4%ED%83%80%20%ED%81%AC%EB%9E%98%ED%94%84%ED%8A%B8
01:49:04 <oren> Oh, that's literally hangulized "starcraft"
01:51:55 <tswett> `` unidecode $(unicode D7FF)
01:51:56 <HackEgo> U+D7FF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ed 9f bf UTF-16BE: d7ff Decimal: ퟿ \ () \ Uppercase: U+D7FF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
01:52:18 <tswett> `` unidecode $(unicode D800)
01:52:19 <HackEgo> U+D800 <Non Private Use High Surrogate, First> \ UTF-8: ed a0 80 UTF-16BE: d800 Decimal: � \ \ Category: Cs (Other, Surrogate) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
01:52:52 <tswett> So "unicode" happily produced an illegal character which "unidecode" then happily decoded.
01:53:11 <tswett> It's a... FUCKING CONSPIRACY, FUCK THIS SHIT.
01:53:30 <heddwch> s/FUCKING CONSPIRACY/shared bug thanks to shared codebase/
01:53:53 <tswett> I HOPE THOSE PROGRAMS ROT IN PRISON FOR THE REST OF THey, everyone. How's it going?
01:54:18 <heddwch> about the same. I made one tab too many, and now firefox hates me.
01:54:31 <Jafet> Private consumption is legal, like cannabis in Amsterdam.
01:54:56 <oren> I recommend pkilling firefox first and asking questions later
01:56:47 <tswett> Now adding this to the quote database: "I recommend [...]killing [...] first and asking questions later" —oren
01:58:10 <oren> `` unicode 898989
01:58:29 <oren> `` unicode D8FF
02:01:11 <oren> `` unicode FFEF
02:01:20 <oren> `` unicode FFFE
02:01:27 <oren> `` unicode FEFF
02:02:02 <oren> `` unidecode $(unicode FEFF)
02:02:03 <HackEgo> [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE]
02:02:11 <oren> `` unidecode $(unicode FFFF)
02:02:13 <HackEgo> U+FFFF - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef bf bf UTF-16BE: ffff Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+FFFF \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
02:02:18 <oren> `` unidecode $(unicode FFFE)
02:02:19 <HackEgo> U+FFFE - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: ef bf be UTF-16BE: fffe Decimal:  \ () \ Uppercase: U+FFFE \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
02:02:48 <oren> Good old zwinibisp.
02:12:49 <oren> zwinibisp is the fuck UTF-16 character, cousin to nibisp, the fuck css character.
02:15:16 <tswett> If U+FEFF is ZWNBSP, then presumably U+FFFE is BSPZWN.
02:15:26 <tswett> Break Space Zero-Width No-.
02:20:01 <HackEgo> [U+00D0 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ETH]
02:23:44 <oren> `` xxd -p -r <<<'A0a0a0a0a0a0a0a0a0aae0a'
02:26:37 <oren> `` xxd -p -r <<<'aaaaaaaaa'
02:27:00 <oren> oh, that;s hilarious. ª is aa
03:40:34 <fowl> `unicode 🔰👙🎩📜💬💭
03:40:35 <HackEgo> U+1F530 JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 b0 UTF-16BE: d83ddd30 Decimal: 🔰 \ 🔰 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F459 BIKINI \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 99 UTF-16BE: d83ddc59 Decimal: 👙 \ 👙 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F3A9 TOP HAT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8e
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04:03:48 <tswett> "JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER"?
04:04:05 <HackEgo> U+1F530 JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 b0 UTF-16BE: d83ddd30 Decimal: 🔰 \ 🔰 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F459 BIKINI \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 99 UTF-16BE: d83ddc59 Decimal: 👙 \ 👙 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F3A9 TOP HAT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8e
04:04:43 <tswett> `` unidecode $(unicode FEFF)
04:04:44 <HackEgo> [U+FEFF ZERO WIDTH NO-BREAK SPACE]
04:05:02 <HackEgo> U+1F530 JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 b0 UTF-16BE: d83ddd30 Decimal: 🔰 \ 🔰 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
04:05:15 <HackEgo> U+1F530 JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 94 b0 UTF-16BE: d83ddd30 Decimal: 🔰 \ 🔰 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
04:05:19 <HackEgo> [U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F]
04:05:38 <tswett> How come it's much more verbose for the JAPANESE SYMBOL FOR BEGINNER than for the F?
04:12:55 <Jafet> `cat bin/unidecode
04:12:56 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ import os, sys \ import unicodedata \ s = u" ".join("[U+{0:04X} {1}]".format(ord(c), unicodedata.name(c, "DUNNO")) for c in " ".join(sys.argv[1:]).decode("utf-8")).encode("utf-8") \ if u"DUNNO" in s: \ os.execvp("multicode", ["multicode"] + sys.argv[1:]) \ else: \ print s
04:13:10 <Jafet> Backwards compatibility reasons
05:03:12 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/ansi.htm
05:06:06 <oren> now I can make all my HTML look like on a terminal.
05:06:49 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/my.css
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05:15:20 <izabera> i don't think you can write in the middle of a line on a terminal...
05:17:02 <oren> right, so imagine it's a super advanced terminal from a new golden age of terminating
05:18:03 <heddwch> In other words, curses was invented
05:20:00 <oren> nah, curses and modern temrinals simply cannot write text halfway down between lines
05:21:03 <heddwch> Oh, no lol I misunderstood
05:23:57 <oren> although xterm might. xterm has a ton of features that don't exist on other terminals
05:25:27 <izabera> is that the color scheme you use?
05:26:22 <oren> It's the CGA colors
05:26:51 <oren> bright colors are typically done using ^[[1,31m etc
05:28:12 <oren> mybe I'll change the colors to what my terminal is set to
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06:56:31 <oren> Ironically it takes a lot of CSS to simulate the appearance of a terminal
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06:58:48 <oren> well it's like you have to reduce a lot of margins, padding and all that bullshit to zero to achive the right appearence
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07:26:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43560&oldid=43508 * Phase * (-4) language got renamed
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08:54:39 <fizzie> I've got some line-arty web stuff in http://zem.fi/rfk86/
08:54:50 <fizzie> Although some browsers had trouble with it, so it might not be quite kosher.
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09:16:26 <int-e> fizzie: firefox doesn't like the <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> ... it prefers to have <meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8" /> in the html header.
09:20:19 <int-e> Should that be application/xhtml+xml instead? But regardless, the XML processing instruction at the beginning is ignored by firefox.
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09:31:10 <int-e> Ah. http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml-media-types/#compatGuidelines ... the first guideline is: "DO NOT include XML processing instructions NOR the XML declaration."
09:32:26 <int-e> basically the browser is free to interpret the content as HTML (not XML) as long as the content type is text/html.
09:47:58 <olsner> iirc the xhtml+xml content type is so misused it's usually treated as text/html anyway
09:52:56 <int-e> but in that case, the browser should at least try to treat it as xml first.
09:53:42 <olsner> it might auto-detect on contents, but on the web, stuff marked as xml usually isn't
09:58:18 <Jafet> Well, that's if you include their (alleged) schemata.
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10:09:50 <int-e> olsner: well, firefox does trust the application/xhtml+xml, and refuses to display pages with xml syntax errors (test: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/l.xhtml vs. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/l.html)
10:10:46 <int-e> (I also checked that it uses the content-type as provided by the server.)
10:12:18 <Jafet> Firefox increased its faith in the content-type after a string of polyglot file exploits, I think
10:13:17 <int-e> right. my "firefox" is an iceweasel 38.1.0.
10:13:52 <olsner> I would've expected that to break lots of stuff, but looks like Chrome also trusts the xhtml content-type
10:14:56 <Jafet> That's ok, all web browsing animals are welcome in the religion of safe file interpretation
10:24:49 <HackEgo> 62) <Sgeo|web> Where's the link to the log? <lament> THERE'S NO LOG. YOUR REQUEST IS SUSPICIOUS AND HAS BEEN LOGGED. \ 120) <AnMaster> cpressey, oh go to zzo's website. He is NIH <Phantom_Hoover> AnMaster, really? I was strongly under the impression that zzo was invented here. \ 163) <Gregor> "* There is no scientifically-justifiable reason to ex
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11:39:34 <int-e> `learn NIH was /not/ invented by Taneb.
11:39:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'nih': NIH was /not/ invented by Taneb.
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12:09:48 <int-e> doesn't work nicely with screen/irssi...
12:10:48 <oerjan> just because it's monospace?
12:11:21 <int-e> it comes out as ��� when I try to copy it from the xterm to something with a proper font...
12:12:01 <oerjan> ah i don't have that problem (putty - tmux - irssi)
12:12:48 <oerjan> of course i originally changed to tmux because someon said it had better utf-8 support
12:13:34 <oerjan> (it wasn't a big deal since i had only been trying screen for a few hours too)
12:16:14 <int-e> it probably wouldn't be a big deal to switch for me either...
12:17:14 <int-e> I already have escape ^B^B in my .screenrc for an unrelated reason
12:18:25 <int-e> (I use C-a to jump to the start of the line in the shell)
12:18:40 <oerjan> hey me too! well in irssi.
12:19:04 <int-e> yes, I do that in irssi, too.
12:19:51 <int-e> oerjan: the first ^B is the escape command; the second is what you type afterwards to send a raw ^B.
12:20:25 <oerjan> (and the tmux default.)
12:20:40 <int-e> if you nest screens very deeply (my brain cannot handle this...) it would make sense to use different control sequences for these to avoid the exponential blowup)
12:21:01 <oerjan> never done any nesting afair
12:21:11 * int-e cannot even deal with two levels of parentheses ;)
12:22:29 <int-e> I have the occasional accident where I attach to a screen inside a screen. I fix that as soon as I notice.
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12:26:21 <oerjan> tmux has an environment variable to prevent that.
12:26:31 <oerjan> (you can unset it if you really want to.)
12:27:12 <int-e> screen / ssh / screen <-- ssh would have to transfer that environment variable then
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12:31:06 <oerjan> dammit the neighbors have forgotten to give the dog whatever it is that keeps it from barking.
12:34:10 <int-e> ah, it's always the little things... in screen, trying to switch to a non-existant session briefly displays the active sessions... which is great since I've disabled the status line.
12:35:17 * oerjan wouldn't know about that, he still has a status line.
12:40:07 <fizzie> screen also does something to guard, and is equally confused by SSH.
12:40:29 <fizzie> Attaching from inside of screen?
12:40:46 <fizzie> I do nested screens semi-regularly, but only up to two levels.
12:40:55 <int-e> screen guards against attaching to its own session inside the same screen (to some extent) but not against merely running screen inside screen.
12:41:05 <fizzie> And haven't bothered to remap -- the ^a-a isn't that bad at that stage.
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12:43:51 <int-e> funny, another thing I immediately looked for was the 'blank window' option (ESC - in screen)
12:44:25 <int-e> and I miss the ESC ^D alias for detail (ESC d)
12:46:59 <fizzie> I used to use screen's lock thing, but it made me worry about how safe it is to lock a Linux virtual console with it.
12:49:03 * oerjan is slightly disturbed that you can easily write unsafeCoerce in GHCi with type families in Safe mode
12:49:57 <oerjan> it doesn't enforce type family coherence when you redefine instances
12:50:38 <int-e> ok then. that's nasty but not immediately worrysome for lambdabot :)
12:51:22 <oerjan> it also doesn't enforce it when loading two modules simultaneously, which is how i discovered it.
12:51:25 <int-e> "worrisome". hmm, a weird word.
12:52:12 <oerjan> yep, it still religiously prevents type family overlap reaching an actual module.
12:52:12 <int-e> the usual diamond thing? the one that also allows access to incoherent instances?
12:52:27 <oerjan> yes. i've been recently experimenting with both.
12:52:53 <oerjan> the incoherent instances seem to be safe because you cannot deduce a type equality from them.
12:53:00 <oerjan> even with functional dependencies.
12:53:12 <oerjan> type families, however, are "globally" checked.
12:53:25 <oerjan> but the globally doesn't include the GHCi prompt itself.
12:53:39 <int-e> okay, good... mostly.
12:54:00 <oerjan> here's the wontfix ticket i found https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/7102
12:55:30 <oerjan> maybe i should add a comment.
12:56:48 * oerjan should check if the Safe haskell docs mention this first.
13:00:01 <int-e> by the same logic... why doesn't ghci allow redeclaring class instances? ;-)
13:00:30 <int-e> Prelude> instance Show Char ... Duplicate instance declarations: ...
13:02:21 <int-e> I'm not so surprised by the lack of a global coherence check, but the fact that newly defined type instances can replace previous ones (hmm, what happens in case of an overlap?), that I do find surprising.
13:02:36 <oerjan> especially given the comment spj added in that ticket. sounds like a feature request.
13:03:03 <int-e> okay, it does complain about overlaps. hmm hmm.
13:03:13 <oerjan> int-e: the comment says it only happens with identical left sides
13:03:29 <oerjan> but then, you might want that for instances too.
13:05:43 <oerjan> hm it doesn't help if it's a class defined on the prompt either, although the error then happens only on use.
13:06:08 <oerjan> int-e: well i guess you don't do incremental definitions on the ghci prompt then
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13:06:51 <int-e> oerjan: and I guess what you're doing is basically this: http://sprunge.us/LOeQ
13:07:32 <int-e> (hmm, copied a from line, type instance F a b a should be type instance F a b = a
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13:08:22 <oerjan> int-e: a bit simpler than that, i had from :: a -> T a b and to :: T a b -> b
13:09:35 <oerjan> i suppose i could have defined uc directly instead of using to
13:10:28 <int-e> oh, I thought I needed the extra argument to get around non-injectivity.
13:11:19 <int-e> But that was wrong. Odd, but perhaps necessary to make phantom types and the like work.
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13:13:34 <oerjan> well that's similar to how class instances work; you don't get an ambiguity error if there's an instance with an _actual_ type variable.
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14:02:27 <oerjan> int-e: ooh, i'm partly mistaken about this, i didn't check loading two modules separately with -XSafe set in ghci...
14:02:35 <oerjan> it actually _does_ check then.
14:03:01 <oerjan> but not without -XSafe, and not with explicit instances at the prompt.
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14:03:20 <oerjan> but that makes this much less disturbing, i think.
14:08:48 <oren> In CSS, how can I set the width of an element based on the font's width?
14:11:02 <oren> Oh I got it. I'll measure the width of some <a></a> and then divide by the number of characters
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14:17:58 <rdococ> I made a zeroth generation BASIC dialect once, but it isnt turing complete...
14:18:39 <rdococ> but what I'm trying to do is create a turing complete language without conditionals
14:19:16 <oren> You can simulate conditionals with certain strings of oeprators
14:19:26 <heddwch> For a minute, thought this was in a different channel and was going to ask "Why would you want to do that?"
14:19:36 <rdococ> oren: what do you mean?
14:20:25 <oren> like in C, i += 3*(x==y) adds 3 to i only if x == y.
14:20:58 -!- oerjan has set topic: The channel where "Why would you want to do that?" is not a legitimate question | Sir Fungellot does not fnord. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
14:21:00 <rdococ> where x==y would be 0 if they werent equal and 1 if they were
14:21:11 <oren> Now imagine i is actually the instruction pointer
14:21:40 <rdococ> so... conditionally...
14:22:55 <oren> hope that helps, hth
14:23:16 <heddwch> oh lol =p Yea, like I said, I thought it was in a different channel for a moment
14:23:25 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
14:23:25 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
14:23:31 <oren> it is part of the english dalect that we have on this channel
14:23:48 <oerjan> this channel's dialect is such a scow
14:24:28 <oren> scow means something bad or something
14:24:29 <boily> helloddwch. you should take a glance at the PDF available in the /topic. it shall clarify some matters.
14:24:56 <oren> In regulat english it means a boat of some sort
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14:26:06 <heddwch> oren: Yea, that definition I'm used to
14:26:23 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
14:26:52 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Are you typing with your feet?
14:26:57 <lambdabot> int-e says: What, unsafeCoerce# is kind-preserving? how boring :/
14:27:10 <heddwch> Well, nice meeting you folks
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14:27:31 <HackEgo> 1226) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
14:27:50 <boily> @tell heddwch We're still waiting for you.
14:27:56 <HackEgo> 1227) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
14:28:14 <boily> oh fungot. quote 1227. that one was something...
14:28:15 <fungot> boily: well, that works too. :-p so, i think i am wrong please don't ask me where fnord come up with
14:28:28 <HackEgo> 1228) <int-e> (I need to stop talking about my habits so much (Uh I'm doing it again, STOP! (Uh I give up. (Really, I should stop doing this all the time. (AAARGH!)))))
14:28:35 <boily> fungot: I won't. too terrifying.
14:28:36 <fungot> boily: i thougth you mean, the terminally curious may want to take highschool students and turn them into c++. its object system is used actively? i'm reading fnord, and *very fnord such scalar values still exist in iso fnord, though
14:29:20 <boily> fungot: uuuuh... I don't think it's legal anywhere to turn highschool students to C++, as much as it may seem desirable at first sight.
14:29:26 <oren> c++'s object system is massively abused in a lot of organizatinos it seems
14:29:44 <oerjan> int-e: at least your parentheses matched in that quote
14:29:56 <HackEgo> 1229) <boily> life is overrated. it's only another expendable resource.
14:30:13 <HackEgo> 1230) <oerjan> i guess norway just isn't cold
14:30:21 * boily shifts uneasily "there was context! oerjean outquoted me!"
14:30:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 191420Z 27008KT 9999 FEW035TCU SCT045 BKN060 14/10 Q1003 RMK WIND 670FT 29006KT
14:30:35 <lambdabot> CYUL 191400Z 17007KT 15SM FEW008 BKN018 23/21 A2974 RMK SF1SC7 SF TR SLP070 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
14:30:47 <lambdabot> CYYZ 191400Z 25015KT 15SM FEW040 FEW130 27/21 A2978 RMK SC1AC1 SC TR SLP081 DENSITY ALT 2200FT
14:30:53 <oerjan> boily: i'm pretty sure that must have applied to my quote too hth
14:32:17 <boily> oren: iirc, that quote's context was about M:tG.
14:32:32 <oerjan> boily: also, do we want to know what iso fnord is
14:32:53 <boily> oerjan: no, no we don't. it's standardized evil in a fnord.
14:33:04 <boily> PURE FUNGOT ESSENCE!
14:33:19 <boily> (oh! time for a shower, bike, mahjong, and probably too much food.)
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14:43:32 <Taneb> I went and saw Ant Man yesterday evening (it was good)
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14:44:40 <HackEgo> Thanks, ant man. Thant man.
14:46:05 <Taneb> I'm going to use that.
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15:12:46 <oren> Success. now my pages automatically set the width to 80 characters wide
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15:34:01 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/sizing.js <-- 80 characters
15:35:40 <oren> it sets the width of the page to the width of 'HOME' /4 *80
15:36:07 <int-e> another bright day for noscript
15:37:19 <oren> so long as your font isn't too much more than 10 pixels wide it should look fine
15:38:38 <oren> the default in css is 800 pixels wide
15:39:18 <oren> er, in www.orenwatson.be/my.css not css in general
15:41:13 <int-e> Shouldn't that work width = 80em and no javascript at all?
15:41:44 <oren> hmmm I'll try that out.
15:43:08 * int-e needs to hava a look at the CSS specification...
15:43:22 <oren> no. An em isn't determined by the font it seems.
15:44:46 <oren> or rather isn't determined CORRECTLY
15:45:08 <int-e> but there is a ch unit, though it's unclear how universal support for it is
15:45:13 <oren> It seems if I set font size to say 16px, then 1em=16px
15:45:21 <int-e> http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-values/#font-relative-lengths
15:45:25 <oren> ratehr than being the width
15:47:23 <oren> but I'll leave in the 800px before it incase a browser doesn't support it
16:01:20 <oren> there, no javascript necessary.
16:18:08 <oren> oh shit. border-spacing wasn't set to 0px
16:18:23 <oren> thst's what was fucking my tables up
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16:20:49 <oren> see how much work it takes to to make things look like raw test even though they're html? gawd
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16:53:43 <oren> oh shit my toast is going to become ‼toast‼
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17:03:07 <Slereah> A fine example of dwarven toast
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17:20:33 <Slereah> Anybody knows nethacks well?
17:23:04 <mauris_> as in nethack the game? cause ais523 knows more about that than most people, i'm sure
17:25:13 <mauris_> i know it pretty well, too. both the how-to-play part and the source code part
17:25:53 <Slereah> it's a pretty basic question really
17:26:01 <Slereah> Just wondering how much classes matter
17:26:12 <Slereah> outside of the starting point and the leveling
17:26:23 <Slereah> Are there things you cannot do with each classes
17:26:23 <mauris_> surprisingly little, past the early game
17:26:44 <Slereah> I suspected as much when my barbarian was able to learn a spell
17:27:02 <mauris_> the skill caps (as in #enhance menu) are different for each class
17:27:32 <Slereah> I'm using a UI so I'm not sure where the skills are hidden
17:27:44 <mauris_> and honestly, that is maybe the biggest long-term effect of your choice
17:30:13 <Slereah> Currently I am playing an orc barbarian because I was like "fuck subtlety"
17:30:20 <Slereah> Wizards did not yield me much luck
17:30:50 <mauris_> melee is a lot easier yeah
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17:32:53 <Slereah> I'd better put my chaotic alignment to profit
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20:58:51 <oren> I should make another octal table for the Z80
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22:14:39 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M449821784326138253020622’
22:14:39 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
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22:30:53 <lambdabot> CYUL 192206Z 33005KT 15SM FEW025CB FEW050 SCT150 OVC220 25/23 A2965 RMK CB1SC1AC3CI5 CB TR SC TR SLP040 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
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22:32:51 <zzo38> OK, I got my new computer working, I managed to figure out how to fix the location bar in Firefox, I changed the window manager and everything like that
22:33:16 <zzo38> NOw I need to recover the data from my old hard drives, so I can set up HTTP and gopher servers
22:39:05 <zzo38> I cannot figure out how, as these old hard drives are IDE, the new computer is SATA, and the adapter I have won't work either since there are no spare power cables in the computer
23:06:37 <FreeFull> I still don't understand why the SATA power cable is so big
23:07:04 <zzo38> I don't quite know either
23:07:17 <zzo38> Do you know how to get a power supply to work without the motherboard?
23:07:20 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/z80machinecode.htm
23:07:53 <oren> You need to wire together the Green wire and one of the black ones
23:08:25 <oren> That simulates the computers ON switch
23:08:33 <zzo38> There are several black wires
23:08:43 <oren> any will do they are all gound
23:09:52 <zzo38> This "i3" window manager is much better than the one that came with this computer
23:11:05 <zzo38> Now what should I use to wire together those wires?
23:12:26 -!- Wallacoloo has left.
23:18:14 <zzo38> Why did my browser settings reset?
23:22:59 -!- h0rsep0wer has joined.
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23:29:28 <oerjan> ITT oren gets zzo38 to brick his new computer
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23:38:56 <HackEgo> unicide/Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
23:39:22 <HackEgo> alice/Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
23:39:45 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/botsnack | grep summary:
23:39:49 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <mrhmouse> echo "echo \'>:-D\'" >> bin/botsnack \ summary: <mrhmouse> echo "#!/bin/sh" > bin/botsnack \ summary: <mrhmouse> echo "echo >:-D" > bin/botsnack \ summary: <GreyKnight> echo "echo :-D" > bin/botsnack
23:39:54 <boily> speaking of alise, where's elliott?
23:40:49 <boily> `` culprits bin/botsnack
23:40:59 <HackEgo> tswett tswett oerjan elliott mrhmouse mrhmouse mrhmouse ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull GreyKnight GreyKnight
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23:42:02 <oren> I use a bent paper clip
23:43:33 <oren> (I have the same sort of setup with a second PSU powering a drive)
23:43:59 <oerjan> boily: the last i saw of elliott was a mysterious misclick event on the wiki
23:44:22 <oerjan> which was very nicely timed for when i was starting to worry about him
23:53:27 <oren> what's elliott's name on the wiki?
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00:34:36 <HackEgo> U+1F449 WHITE RIGHT POINTING BACKHAND INDEX \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 89 UTF-16BE: d83ddc49 Decimal: 👉 \ 👉 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F44C OK HAND SIGN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 8c UTF-16BE: d83ddc4c Decimal: 👌 \ 👌 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
00:49:19 <oren> hey, no sexual emojery!
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09:21:42 <zzo38> Finally I fixed my computer (except the gopher server)
09:22:09 <zzo38> I had to change PHIRC to get it to work with xterm, as well as writing the proper shell-script of it, but now it work.
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10:04:01 <zzo38> The PC bold setting in xterm doesn't seems working; how to fix that?
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10:38:30 <zzo38> Now when I try to make a screenshot with ImageMagick the text in the xterm window is missing
10:40:47 <zzo38> I figured out, I need "xwd" to capture the picture and then ImageMagick can convert to PNG format.
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12:10:17 <zzo38> This is the screenshot of its working: http://zzo38computer.org/img_17/screenshot.png
12:15:39 <int-e> since you're using imagemagick anyway: import -window root screenshot.png
12:17:00 <int-e> or is that what you tried in the first place...
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13:23:21 <fizzie> For integers, I guess.
13:23:23 <Taneb> For nonzero a, at least
13:31:24 <oerjan> i think zero a works just as well with the right interpretation
13:34:14 <oerjan> a doesn't have to be integer, either. although that only works for addition/subtraction, not multiplication.
13:41:26 <mroman_> If you want to find all inverses mod p (p prime)
13:41:40 <mroman_> how many extended euclidian algorithm computations do you need to run?
13:42:01 <oerjan> that sounds like an inefficient way of finding them, hm
13:42:03 <mroman_> (or in other words: How many times do you need to run the extended euclidean algorithm)
13:42:11 <int-e> none, you just list 0..p-1...
13:42:31 <int-e> sorry, the 0 should be excluded.
13:42:44 <oerjan> i'm sure that solves his problem.
13:43:01 <mroman_> you gotta be able to tell what is the inverse of what
13:43:28 <oerjan> in that case, use some dynamic programming i think
13:43:48 <Jafet> You want all the inverses? Can't you just use the first one?
13:43:53 <oerjan> pick a number you don't know the inverse of, start computing its powers until you reach one you know.
13:44:24 <oerjan> should be O(p) calculations in all, i think
13:44:52 <oerjan> (you start out knowing 1 is its own inverse)
13:45:03 <mroman_> and p-1 is it's own inverse
13:45:06 <Jafet> You can use the baby-step giant-step algorithm to achieve O(sqrt p)
13:45:11 <mroman_> and if a*b = 1 then b*a = 1 as well
13:45:48 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't know what you're talking about, but i assume he wants a table of inverses (mod p)
13:45:53 <mroman_> so it's probably maximum O( (p-2) / 2 )
13:46:30 <oerjan> mroman_: thinks like -2 and /2 don't count in O() notation
13:46:33 <mroman_> but since a pair of inverses gives a free other pair of inverses
13:46:41 <Jafet> Woah, you were giving serious answers
13:46:43 <mroman_> it's probably more around (p - 2) / 4 euclidean algorithms
13:47:11 <mroman_> or are there other shortcuts to inverses?
13:47:11 <int-e> I don't think the problem is well-defined
13:47:48 <oerjan> int-e: "how to calculate (n, n^-1 (mod p)) for all 0 < n < p?"
13:48:07 <oerjan> mroman_ is still blathering about euclidean algorithms
13:48:20 <int-e> actually you should find a primitive root r and then list pairs (r^-n, r^n). That's exactly one call of the extended euclidean algorithm, but a couple more modular exponentiations.
13:48:27 <oerjan> i think that's not the best algorithm.
13:48:39 <mroman_> I don't know any other algorithm actually to compute inverses
13:48:49 <oerjan> um how do you find a primitive root they're not predictable.
13:49:00 <mroman_> and that only works for co-primes anyway
13:49:17 <oerjan> although you could get them as a consequence of what i suggested, i think.
13:49:27 <Jafet> There are O(p/log p) primitive roots mod p, so just pick elements at random
13:49:30 <oerjan> but that also calculates all the inverses
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13:53:17 <oerjan> so you could just calculate n^(p-2) for all n directly...
13:53:51 <oerjan> (n doesn't need to be prime)
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13:55:06 <oerjan> so, O(p log p) multiplications
13:55:09 <mroman_> and if you're using eulers theorem
13:55:29 <oerjan> fermat's little theorem
13:55:59 <Jafet> If you want all of the inverses, it's even simpler: calculate 1, r, r^2..., r^k=1, then the inverse of r^i is r^(k-i)
13:56:23 <oerjan> Jafet: that's what i started suggesting
13:56:36 <oerjan> except i also suggested caching results
13:57:16 <oerjan> because you should also stop if r^k is a number you've already hit
13:58:57 <oerjan> unless somehow the raw calculation is better than a memory lookup, hm... now we're into other caching issues.
13:59:41 <oerjan> this method is unlikely to preserve cache locality :)
14:00:14 <mroman_> that is, if I found a primitive root
14:00:32 <oerjan> no, r doesn't have to be a primitive root with my version
14:00:40 <Jafet> The first duplicate will always be 1, since every r generates a subgroup in Z/pZ*
14:01:20 <oerjan> you just pick a "random" r that hasn't been found yet
14:01:40 <oerjan> yes. and then you choose another r.
14:02:11 <oerjan> might need a linked list or something to keep track of what's uncalculated.
14:02:44 <oerjan> keep choosing r's until there are none left and you have the whole table.
14:02:50 <Jafet> Unfortunately you won't get far with the subsequent r's before hitting a number already seen
14:03:02 <oerjan> what's "unfortunate" about that?
14:03:11 <Jafet> For each r, you need a new extgcd
14:03:31 <oerjan> you just calculate r^i
14:03:43 <oerjan> with multiplication and modulus
14:03:51 <oerjan> not egcd needed at all.
14:04:59 <Jafet> How do you find r^-1 with that?
14:05:57 <oerjan> if (r^k)^-1 = q, then r^-1 = r^(k-1)*q
14:08:33 <Jafet> If you pick r not a generator (say r=q^2), then knowing all the powers of r won't help you find q^-1
14:09:05 <oerjan> um r^k is a number you already know q is the inverse of.
14:10:11 <oerjan> k is the smallest k such that r^k is already in your inverse table
14:10:45 <oerjan> once you find it, you can fill in r ... r^(k-1) using that.
14:11:41 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure you're actually saving work over calculating all the way up to r^k = 1...
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14:12:56 <oerjan> perhaps a gcd actually is a good idea here.
14:13:27 <oerjan> that way, you can ensure your table so far is always all the powers of the previous r
14:14:48 <Jafet> Well, if r=q^a and 1/r=q^b, then 1/q=q^b*q^(a-1)
14:15:53 <oerjan> you have some mistake there but i'm not sure what you're trying to say
14:16:40 <oerjan> well my point is, you don't know the q.
14:17:09 <oerjan> reconsidering, i guess the question is, can you find a primitive root much faster than the remaining calculation of all its powers?
14:18:36 <oerjan> i was going to say "especially if you don't know the factors of p-1", but if those aren't easy to calculate you don't have a chance to calculate the whole table anyway.
14:20:14 <Jafet> Nevermind, I swapped the letters around and got the same identity that you wrote
14:21:30 <Jafet> So yes, it would work
14:25:57 <oerjan> if you keep the known set a subgroup, then after you have found (r^k), you go through the already known table and add _all_ r^i * q where 0 < i < k and q is already known. that way you keep it a subgroup at the next stage.
14:27:10 <oerjan> and at least double the set of known numbers at each iteration
14:29:25 <oerjan> also, i'm pretty sure you could keep track of the order of the numbers as well.
14:29:34 <oerjan> (this might need a gcd or two.)
14:29:59 <Taneb> I don't look at the channel for half an hour and I have no idea what is going on
14:30:08 <oerjan> i'm not quite sure either.
14:30:11 <Taneb> Looks like... number theory?
14:30:34 <oerjan> trying to think of how to compute a complete table of inverses (mod p)
14:30:41 <oerjan> reasonably efficiently
14:31:59 <oerjan> hm maybe you cannot track the order of _all_ the elements, but you should be able to keep track of one with the largest order so far, so that at the end you also have a primitive root.
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14:32:39 <Taneb> Well, 1's inverse is 1
14:32:46 <Taneb> And 0 doesn't have an inverse
14:32:50 <Jafet> The last remaining r should be a primitive root
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14:33:00 <Taneb> That's it for p=2, you can generalise it from there
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14:33:15 <oerjan> or well, i don't think this method actually depends on p being prime. or, it might be harder to select all the relatively prime numbers to start with.
14:34:05 <oerjan> Jafet: not necessarily. in theory you could have p-1 remaining until the end...
14:34:26 <oerjan> and end up selecting it as the last r.
14:35:03 <oerjan> you can, however, calculate a primitive root by considering the orders of the r's
14:35:30 <oerjan> or so i think, vaguely. now i need to get shaved ->
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14:37:57 <Taneb> Did I tell you that I got a haircut the other day?
14:38:14 <Taneb> My hair is shorter than it's been since 2008
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14:49:19 <Jafet> @let inverses p = foldl' add (M.fromList [(1,1)]) [2..p-1] where x×y = x*y`mod`p; add m r | r`M.member`m = m | True = let rs = takeWhile (`M.notMember`m)
14:49:19 <Jafet> $ iterate (r×) r; q = r×last rs; qi = m M.! q in M.union m $ M.fromList [ (r, ri×qi) | (r, ri) <- zip rs (reverse rs) ]
14:49:29 <Jafet> @let inverses p = foldl' add (M.fromList [(1,1)]) [2..p-1] where x×y = x*y`mod`p; add m r | r`M.member`m = m | True = let rs = takeWhile (`M.notMember`m) $ iterate (r×) r; q = r×last rs; qi = m M.! q in M.union m $ M.fromList [ (r, ri×qi) | (r, ri) <- zip rs (reverse rs) ]
14:50:27 <lambdabot> fromList [(1,1),(2,50002),(3,66669),(4,25001),(5,60002),(6,83336),(7,85717),...
14:50:40 <Jafet> > inverses 1000003
14:58:55 <Jafet> This uses 1-2 multiplications per inverse, but Montgomery had an algorithm that worked for any subset of query numbers with 3 multiplications (and one extgcd)
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15:13:44 <Jafet> Hmm, it's two multiplications and no extgcds if the set is 1..p-1, and doesn't require any table
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15:56:45 <HackEgo> olist 994: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
16:15:35 <oerjan> not ending well for Belkar in 3,2...
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16:50:33 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.
16:50:43 <shachaf> `learn_append olist http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
16:50:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'olist': Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick. http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootslatest.html
16:51:01 <shachaf> I feel like learn_append might be better as le/rn_append
16:52:50 <fizzie> fungot: You're a piece of code, why don't you watch these websites for us?
16:52:51 <fungot> fizzie: only 35 google hits for what flapjax? i always get a ripe one. you must be more.
16:57:41 <fizzie> Sounds like a web framework.
16:57:51 <fizzie> "Flapjax is a new programming language designed around the demands of modern, client-based Web applications."
16:58:55 <fizzie> "Flapjax is easy to learn: it is just a JavaScript framework."
16:59:38 <fizzie> I didn't know that JavaScript frameworks ⊂ programming languages.
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17:39:18 <shachaf> Flapjax happens to be in the intersection.
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18:29:33 <zzo38> Do you know how to disable mouse wheel on X on Linux?
18:31:19 <shachaf> Change ZAxisMapping or something like that?
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20:10:56 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure Flapjax predates the term "JavaScript framework"
20:11:45 <FireFly> At least, it was where I first came across the term reactive programming, before Elm got kinda popular
20:15:15 * int-e suspects that FireFly is not talking about the mail client.
20:16:00 <HackEgo> welcome/Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:16:23 <FireFly> int-e: no, the programming language
20:16:40 <int-e> http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/elm-hates-me.png
20:17:02 <int-e> IS IT TOO HARD TO DISPLAY MINIMAL INFORMATION WITHOUT JAVASCRIPT!
20:17:10 <shachaf> sounds more like you hate elm hth
20:17:22 <shachaf> javascript is the language of the web
20:17:31 <int-e> shachaf: the file name was tongue-in-cheek.
20:18:07 <int-e> It's not. HTML is.
20:18:31 <int-e> If I say it often enough I will change reality... ah whom am I kidding.
20:18:49 <shachaf> Do you want your software to be just Tk without Tcl?
20:18:53 <int-e> But apparently, people don't like content anymore.
20:19:33 <shachaf> it seems to me like you're the one who's discontent hth
20:19:36 <int-e> No, I don't want my software to be Tcl at all (and I say that despite using gitk)
20:19:46 <int-e> shachaf: I am that.
20:20:11 <int-e> . o O ( Now what are you going to do about it? )
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21:04:28 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: It might depend on some thing
21:05:42 <zzo38> But what imperative language? There is many imperative language
21:06:24 <hppavilion[1]> It's a dialect of a language I made called WalScript
21:06:45 <Taneb> I wonder if there are any languages both purely functional and object oriented
21:07:21 <hppavilion[1]> The most up-to-date functioning WalScript dialect is here:
21:08:06 <hppavilion[1]> It has better variable assignment and supports libraries written in Python if they're made right
21:11:02 <hppavilion[1]> The most advanced one (but as-of-yet unimplemented) is https://github.com/hppavilion1/WalScript-OO/
21:13:43 <Jafet> OCaml has type inference for classes, but it's incomplete
21:15:33 <Jafet> It counts as purely functional if you don't use refs and make an IO monad, I guess
21:15:54 <Jafet> You'd have to write your own do..od macro in camlp4, though
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21:36:41 <tswett> Who says Haskell isn't object-oriented?
21:37:44 <Jafet> Ten overlapping field names say so.
21:37:48 <tswett> A class is simply a type with some accessors.
21:37:49 <Taneb> tswett, I do not actually know what it means to be object oriented
21:38:29 <Jafet> Also, no subtyping or even row polymorphism. OCaml, on the other hand, has recursive classes
21:38:52 <tswett> What's this about field names saying that Haskell isn't OO?
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21:40:46 <oerjan> good boilynchronized evening
21:41:00 <Jafet> @let data A = A { foo :: () }
21:41:04 <Jafet> @let data B = B { foo :: () }
21:42:07 <lambdabot> Parse failed: TemplateHaskell is not enabled
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21:42:51 <tswett> Nudefinn, you say? I have something you might like...
21:43:10 <oerjan> int-e: you should increase the maximal hamming distance twh
21:43:50 <tswett> You know, it seems like I come across a whole lot more Finns on IRC than, say, Spaniards.
21:43:56 <Jafet> I think it's Levenshtein distance
21:43:58 <tswett> Is IRC especially popular in Finland?
21:44:09 <boily> public synchronized void hellørjan() {
21:44:29 <boily> System.out.println("hppavhellon[1]");
21:44:33 <hppavilion[1]> I'm making an OO dialect of my pet programming language
21:44:43 <int-e> oerjan: your abuses are already bad enough
21:45:05 <boily> hppavilion[1]: are you a Finn?
21:45:06 <oerjan> <tswett> Nudefinn, you say? I have something you might like... <-- sauna more...
21:45:34 <tswett> Wait, what's your dog's name?
21:45:36 <oerjan> are you a mad scientist polar bear
21:45:43 <oerjan> did i ask that already
21:46:11 <oerjan> ah. stay away from the polar bear, then.
21:46:22 <tswett> Wait, you're not that other person I was thinking you were.
21:46:50 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not Finnish, though my family does hail from Norway
21:47:00 <fungot> boily: night all i guess
21:47:09 <boily> hppavilion[1]: do you realize what you just unleashed?
21:47:36 <Taneb> `quote I'm neither
21:47:39 <HackEgo> 590) <Ngevd> I'm neither Norwegian nor Finnish <Ngevd> I don't fit in your quaint little categories
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21:47:57 <oerjan> bah, why doesn't tvtropes do outbound links to its comic examples
21:49:57 <tswett> I think we should use nationality-based pronouns instead of gender-based pronouns. We call everyone "han" if they're Finnish, and "han" if they're Norwegian.
21:50:01 <tswett> Crap, those are the same word.
21:50:01 <boily> Taneb: it could be worse. my ancestors are French, on both sides of the issue.
21:50:27 <oerjan> i can find several mentions of the comic i'm thinking of, but no links to it. why can't everyone do transcripts like DMM
21:50:28 <Taneb> boily, roughly half of mine were Dutch
21:51:06 <Taneb> (hence my unusual surname for my country of residence and both of my citizenships)
21:52:08 <boily> ah, a porthello I'm not used to use often!
21:52:30 <oerjan> boily: are you afraid hppavilion[1]'s family come from the same place as i, or something
21:52:35 <boily> tswett: you can address me as «tu» or «il».
21:53:08 <boily> oerjan: I wouldn't be surprised at all if that's the case. this chännel attracts people that are attracted by this chännel.
21:53:16 <oerjan> tswett: i think the finnish is hän?
21:53:18 <boily> tswett: also, tsellott.
21:54:01 <oerjan> tswett: also, no:han is definitely not gender-neutral
21:54:34 <nortti> does norwegian have something like sv:hen?
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21:56:45 <oerjan> <nortti> oerjan: example? <-- "Doc, granted he is a polar bear but once he ate an entire deep-fried walrus."
21:57:27 <oerjan> nortti: oh btw i mean the comic strip, not the general comic
21:57:40 <oerjan> i've already binged the archive
21:58:12 <oerjan> "comic strip" is too damn overloaded in english
21:59:35 <oerjan> nortti: i'm sure the norwegian equivalents to the kind of people who use sv:hen have an equivalent. in fact it might be just the swedish, borrowed.
22:00:40 -!- mihow has joined.
22:04:02 <oerjan> it's a furry comic based around paintball, which i don't play, but i started reading it because phil foglio recommended it
22:05:38 <oerjan> also paintball is hardly weirder than some of those imaginary games in manga...
22:06:10 <Taneb> group : magma :: field : ???
22:07:36 <oerjan> searching for bimagma brings up google's DMCA censorship notice
22:07:46 <fizzie> Fact of the day: Tromsø is the 9th best place in the... I think it was world, but maybe it was just Europe. (Source: ad screen or poster at Victoria Station.)
22:08:03 <Taneb> oerjan, ringoid, maybe?
22:08:23 <oerjan> Taneb: plausible, let me look it up
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22:09:00 <oerjan> hm that's still distributive
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22:09:50 <oerjan> Taneb: i guess it all depends on how much of the field structure you want to remove before you call it a day
22:10:37 <boily> fizzie: probably world hth
22:10:40 <Taneb> oerjan, distribrutivity is fine
22:12:38 <Taneb> The question is, are IEEE floating points bimagmas/ringoids/ringettes
22:14:48 <Taneb> The answer is "no", according to a quick quickcheck
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22:20:23 <tswett> Lessee. Not everything has a multiplicative inverse. Everything does have an additive inverse, except for NaN and maybe the infinities, I guess. Addition and multiplication should be commutative, but not associative.
22:20:37 <tswett> Quite sure distributivity will fail as well.
22:21:08 <tswett> So... as far as I can think, the only property that *is* totally satisfied is commutativity.
22:22:42 <Taneb> (that is, distributivity fails)
22:24:09 <oerjan> Taneb: bimagma was just a word i made up in the hope it meant something. didn't find any.
22:24:22 <Taneb> oerjan, I think we should make it a thing
22:24:38 <Taneb> As in, "IEEE Floating points are a commutative bimagma"
22:26:12 -!- mihow has joined.
22:26:33 <oerjan> dimagma without quotes and once you bypass google's second-guessing seems to give MtG stuff
22:27:14 <zzo38> Is it possible to make it that when a program specifies both the width and the height of the window that it will open floating (and that if either or both are left unspecified, open tiled)?
22:28:20 <Taneb> oerjan, it seems to be from the Italian translation
22:29:14 <Taneb> (and a lot of other di Magmas)
22:29:48 <Taneb> And bimagma seems to pick up misspellings of "big mama" or somthing
22:32:14 <Taneb> I am going to bed now
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22:45:28 <hppavilion1> I am testing the 15 word limit I am testing the 15 word limit I am testing the 15 word limit
22:47:57 <fizzie> You have tested the 15 word limit.
22:49:05 <zzo38> In xterm I notice when you backspace after the last character that fit on the line have been typed, it backspace both the last and previous character. How to fix it?
22:49:16 <zzo38> How can I work-around?
22:50:08 <Sgeo> What is the fifteen word limit? I did not know there was a fifteen word limit. Where is this fifteen word limit?
22:50:38 <Sgeo> fif teen word lim it.
22:50:56 <zzo38> Actually I might be able to figure out
22:51:06 <Sgeo> n oneo fthe sear ewor ds
22:51:09 <zzo38> hppavilion1: What IRC client you are write, what programming language, what feature, etc?
22:51:20 <Sgeo> sear is a word
22:52:19 <hppavilion1> But it will inevitable be a bad play on the word Walrus
22:52:35 <hppavilion1> I'm still working on making it connect to servers
22:53:22 <hppavilion1> No special features. Just making it so I'm not using webchat
22:53:25 <zzo38> How do I access X clipboard with command-line? I found only GUI programs to do it
22:55:53 <zzo38> Is "xclip" the right one?
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23:05:53 <hppavilion1> Eeeeeeeeeeeeeverything is cool when you're me
23:05:53 -!- mauris has joined.
23:06:21 <hppavilion1> Because that's the logical eexteeension of everything being awesome for me
23:06:43 <singingboyo> hppavilion1: so what terrible, critical, horrible malfunction did you just fix to make the world work again? :p
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23:08:09 <singingboyo> ah, in that case, let's hope it's not secretly skynet. That'd be the opposite of making the world work.
23:08:42 <hppavilion1> It came out as a malicious AI when it was 12
23:09:13 <singingboyo> well that makes all the difference then, doesn't it? :p
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23:10:44 <zzo38> I tried "xclip -i -sel p | xclip -o -sel s; xclip -i -sel c | xclip -o -sel p; xclip -i -sel s | xclip -o -sel c" to move stuff around between different clipboard buffers but it just makes it empty instead
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23:18:07 <oerjan> how doomed are we on a scale of 1 to 10
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23:22:57 <nortti> O_o what's the raw IRC data?
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23:25:48 <nortti> hppavilion[1]: for bot testing, you can use ##ingsoc
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23:27:38 <singingboyo> dangit, I think my virtualbox VM tried to shut itself down again
23:28:53 <hppavilion[1]> And the py3support branch of a fork of skype4py doesn't work :(
23:33:36 <hppavilion[1]> The only other py3 port I can find is an empty repo on github
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00:52:12 <oren> `le/rn RAII/RAII is Resource Allocation in the constructor... wait wait uh... Is uh, Initialization
00:53:02 <shachaf> You're lucky `le/rn happens to lowercase the input.
00:53:15 <shachaf> It doesn't do any of the other transformations required to make a wisdom entry.
00:53:17 <Sgeo> Apparently even on Reddit I'm boring: https://www.reddit.com/r/User_Simulator/comments/3dzjbp/lets_all_test_here/ctad1js?context=3#ctad0c3
00:53:24 <shachaf> just wait for oerjan to hear about this
00:54:29 <oren> Reddit is a poor imitation of *chan
00:54:39 <oerjan> i could get simulated, but then i'd have to kill you
00:54:49 <shachaf> what's that wisdom entry for
00:55:20 <shachaf> with the whole "wait wait uh" thing
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00:56:08 <oren> It makes fun of the fact that the RAII acronym makes no sense
00:57:14 <shachaf> ok but i don't buy that it helps the wisdom database
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00:57:53 <oren> it helps it by being funny if you know what it is
00:58:58 <shachaf> I know what RAII is (and I think "RAII" isn't a particularly good name for it -- "RDID" is slightly better but also not great) and I don't think it's funny.
01:02:22 <HackEgo> RAII is Resource Allocation in the constructor... wait wait uh... Is uh, Initialization
01:04:17 <oren> `learn RAII means you allocate in the constructor and deallocate in the destructor. There is no 'initializer' involved.
01:04:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'raii': RAII means you allocate in the constructor and deallocate in the destructor. There is no 'initializer' involved.
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01:05:18 <oren> there is that less humorous enough
01:06:34 <HackEgo> gopher/Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first.
01:06:40 <HackEgo> latex/LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
01:06:49 <zzo38> There was a problem with PHIRC because it was expecting PuTTY but now it is xterm instead, so it wouldn't wrap lines or backspace properly, as well as some other problems, but I fixed it by making a shell-script to wrap around it, as well as a program called "winchset.c" which just copies from stdin to stdout until EOF, except that when it receives SIGWINCH it will report the terminal size of stdin to stdout.
01:07:38 <zzo38> I can send the program in case you would need it
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01:25:19 <HackEgo> indexed monad/Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
01:25:37 <HackEgo> bdsm/BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
01:25:47 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞
01:26:14 <HackEgo> famicom/Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
01:26:19 <HackEgo> roujo/Roujo is a Java heretic leaning on ungrammatical Haskell. His claim to Canadianness is marred by an unholy portal to China. The treaties suffer, so the cocktail will be postponed. He does not understand shell quoting.
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02:41:49 <coppro> anyone here with experience with GitHub's premium services?
02:45:27 <tromp_> i pay to have private repos
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02:54:23 <coppro> tromp_: mind answering some quetsions in PM?
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03:08:06 <zzo38> What is the calculation called when you have one number and the answer is the original number divided by all square numbers it can be divisible by?
03:10:45 <zzo38> (Equivalently, take the set of prime factors which occur odd numbers of time, and take one of each and multiplied together)
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03:14:37 <Sgeo> http://su3su2u1.tumblr.com/post/124431191528/reasons-to-hate-r
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03:39:32 <tromp_> zzo38: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square-free_integer#Squarefree_core
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03:48:20 <zzo38> A Digi-RGB display that wants to support arbitrary resolutions will need to be able to calculate a squarefree core, since it is used to determine what aspect ratio to use. Actually, it only has to determine whether the squarefree core is a particular number; it doesn't necessarily have to calculate squarefree cores.
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06:37:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Call Queue]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43561 * Hppavilion1 * (+306) Created Page
06:41:12 <tswett> Latest wisdom from the neural net:
06:41:14 <tswett> 16:25:39: <ais523> good light like that is still the last exploit
06:41:35 <tswett> I couldn't agree. Good light like that is, most certainly, still the last exploit.
06:53:57 <zzo38> I have now written the program to play .MOD/.XM/.S3M/.IT with Linux command-line. It expect music file in stdin and then writes the raw data to stdout you can then pipe it to aplay in order to play it back. You could even do stuff like: amigamml | playmod | aplay
06:57:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43562 * Hppavilion1 * (+537) Created Page. Hope there isn't already one for it :(
06:59:33 <zzo38> Well, let's see what it is and then we can see about congratulating you.
07:00:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43563&oldid=43562 * Hppavilion1 * (+156) Elaborated on tangliness
07:04:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43564&oldid=43563 * Hppavilion1 * (+0) Moved {{stub}}
07:07:21 <zzo38> About moving it, I think just changing the category may work
07:09:15 <zzo38> I meant moving Call Queue as the message on the talk page; that is what I was refering to
07:09:48 <zzo38> I do like the "tangle bracket language" actually it is ideas I have thought before too
07:10:14 <zzo38> But the example program seem clear to me
07:10:39 <hppavilion[1]> If you want you can edit the page to explain it to people
07:11:00 <hppavilion[1]> Call Queue is a language, but I think it should be a concept for languages
07:11:23 <hppavilion[1]> So either I'll make a page called Call Queue (concept)
07:11:57 <hppavilion[1]> Or move Call Queue to "Koen's Call Queue Language"
07:12:21 <zzo38> Which seems to be that if x is false then doSomethingElse, otherwise if y is false do nothing, otherwise if x and y are both true then doSomething and then repeat. That's what it look like to me
07:14:27 <hppavilion[1]> I'm tabbed out, so add "hppavilion[1]" to any messages to me
07:16:37 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: But my idea was they don't have to be tangled it is optional, anyways
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07:22:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43565 * Zzo38 * (+247) This is what I expect the example code to mean
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07:26:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43566&oldid=43564 * Hppavilion1 * (-20) Implemented User:Zzo38's code
07:27:54 <zzo38> If the && is lazy (like in C) then it doesn't matter whether or not y has side-effects, I think
07:28:43 <zzo38> Use AWAY with any non-empty parameter; this won't indicate it except to someone who send private message or WHOIS to you though.
07:29:01 <zzo38> (Whatever IRC client you use might have a menu for it; I don't know)
07:29:14 <zzo38> AWAY with no parameter cancels this function.
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07:37:28 <hppavilion[1]> Iiiiiiiiiiii' dreeeeeaming of a word of eeeeeeendless
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08:47:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43567&oldid=43555 * Phase * (+98) link to ReadTheDocs
08:50:41 <fizzie> "Of the fatalities on the railway in 2013/14, seven occurred on a level crossing, 18 involved people trespassing on the railway and 286 were suicide or suspected suicide."
08:51:53 <fizzie> That's not a uniform distribution.
08:51:56 <fizzie> (My morning commute was delayed by one today.)
08:55:46 <scoofy> at least it's a quite failsafe suicide method
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08:57:47 <Jafet> In what sense is a suicide method fail-safe
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09:05:19 <scoofy> that you're guaranteed to succeed
09:06:30 <scoofy> if you take pills but fail to take enough, you may end up living but braindead
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09:11:47 <fizzie> "Reliable statistics on the likely mortality rate of being hit by an overground or underground train are hard to locate. Wikipedia quotes a 90% mortality rate for jumping in front of a high speed train (not when it is slowing down as it comes in to a platform though), and 67% for subway/underground trains, as people are generally jumping as the trains are slowing down coming into a station."
09:13:10 <fizzie> Those are probably out of a hat, but I wouldn't expect it to be entirely foolproof.
09:13:32 <Jafet> Your best bet may be a bridge, but bridges that cross tracks tend to be fenced up.
09:13:47 <fizzie> (And if you do survive, I assume you're quite likely to end up badly injured.)
09:15:47 <Jafet> A handgun would probably have a much higher success rate (but beware https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wb_GNzfEBKI)
09:22:13 <scoofy> well, if you jump before a train that is just about to stop... well that's obviously not fail-proof.
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09:22:41 <scoofy> when you do it, at least do it well
09:23:30 <scoofy> if a high-speed train goes through your body, you're 100% guaranteed to not live
09:23:55 <scoofy> so that 90% mortality rate probably comes from people bouncing off or something
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09:47:12 <mroman_> Features I want Java to have
09:47:31 <mroman_> 1.) allow void bar() { if(condition) return handleError(); }
09:47:48 <mroman_> 2.) allow class overloading
09:48:10 <mroman_> such as class Pair<T,U>; and class Pair<T>
09:52:03 <mroman_> also what happens with exceptions that happen during close if you use try-with?
09:52:15 <mroman_> try(FileInputStream fis = new FileInputStream(new File("foo.txt"))) { }
09:52:23 <mroman_> close() may throw an IOException
09:52:34 <mroman_> but it seems the try-with statement suppresses the Exceptions on close()?
09:57:20 <mroman_> they can be catched in the catch block as usual
09:58:50 <mroman_> this is actually pretty cool
09:58:57 <mroman_> with this, you can sorta get something like destructors :D
10:02:59 <mroman_> you just gotta be careful not to copy references
10:04:51 <mroman_> The only failsafe suicide method is overdosing on barbiturates in combination with a plastic bag over your head
10:05:12 <mroman_> well... it's the fail-safest suicide method at least
10:06:00 <mroman_> wrist cutting and trying to overdose by yourself is generally not really a safe way of doing it
10:06:12 <mroman_> mostly because you have to cut precisely and deep enough
10:06:58 <mroman_> and you better take some stuff before-hand that stops coagulation
10:07:56 <mroman_> and you need an anti-emetic if you plan on doing it with drugs
10:08:22 <mroman_> otherwise plastic bag + helium works quite nicely
10:08:34 <mroman_> if your helium tank is big enough and the plastic bag is used correctly
10:08:42 <mroman_> that's how it's done in countries with no legal euthanasia
10:10:00 <mroman_> Since barbiturates are hard to get
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10:28:23 <mroman_> Does rust still have owned pointers
10:28:52 <mroman_> (crappy thing about rust is, that lots of example code on the net does not compile anymore because rust has changed a lot)
10:29:18 <mroman_> Taneb: data structures in rust are generally value types, right?
10:29:35 <Taneb> I'm not the one to ask, I'm afraid
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10:31:36 <Jafet> Chemicals used for lethal injections are extremely reliable, but harder to get
10:45:15 <scoofy> well, injecting any poisonous chemical should be lethal
10:45:38 <scoofy> if the dosage is enough
10:48:17 <scoofy> (though some people injected large amounts of mercury, but did not die, so that's not fail-safe)
10:50:07 <Jafet> The body has some ways to reject toxins.
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10:51:10 <scoofy> if you inject some cyanide, that won't be rejected
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11:00:18 <scoofy> there are lots of common poisons. f.ex. jimsonweed is common, and if you eat a lot, it kills you. or make a tea out of a pack of cigarettes - nicotine is a strong poison so it will kill you
11:00:46 <scoofy> so you cannot even be saved, so it's kinda fail-safe
11:00:54 <Jafet> "will" is a strong word. What's the LD50 for herbal nicotine?
11:02:10 <Jafet> I guess the relevant product feature is actually LD99
11:02:46 <scoofy> "Standard textbooks, databases, and safety sheets consistently state that the lethal dose for adults is 60 mg or less (30–60 mg), leading to safety warnings that ingestion of five cigarettes or 10 ml of a dilute nicotine-containing solution could kill an adult."
11:02:52 <Jafet> (dosage that's lethal at 99% probability)
11:03:13 <scoofy> well, it's easy - just keep ingesting more until you die
11:03:19 <Jafet> For many toxins, the LD90 is much higher than the LD50 dose.
11:03:24 <mroman_> that's still 1 out of 100 people surviving
11:03:44 <scoofy> 1. drink 1 cup. 2. if not dead within 30 mins, drink another cup. 3. go to step 1
11:03:49 <mroman_> considering there is at least one suicide a day around here
11:03:55 <mroman_> three people would survive each year
11:04:34 <mroman_> well at max 1 in 10000 who survives
11:05:06 <Jafet> 99% would already be a great safety improvement over the current estimate of ~10%: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Failed_suicide_attempt
11:06:11 <mroman_> obviously rates of nonfatal self-injury is through the roof compared to suicide
11:06:22 <mroman_> that's a useless sentence there
11:07:18 <Jafet> Oh, it includes self-injuries
11:08:18 <mroman_> otherwise I'd have at least 3 suicide attempts within the last month.
11:08:33 <Jafet> Apparently those statistics include self-injuries in suicide attempts
11:09:08 <mroman_> suicide attempts count as self-injury
11:09:15 <mroman_> or self-injury counts as suicide attempt?
11:09:16 <scoofy> i cigarette contains ~12mg of nicotine. so, make and drink a tea out of 5 packs of cigarettes, eat 3 handfuls of jimson weed, and eat 100 caffeine tablets. i think that's almost 100% fail-safe
11:10:24 <scoofy> + swallow some rat-poison, just in case
11:12:11 <scoofy> poisons are easily available
11:14:39 <mroman_> Jafet: also if the second one: What forms of self-injury
11:14:57 <mroman_> potentially lethal self-injury?
11:15:11 <mroman_> (however you'd define "potentially lethal")
11:15:21 <Jafet> Ones that would get you sent to a suicide therapist, presumably
11:15:54 <scoofy> here when you have an attempted suicide, they pump you full of drugs
11:18:58 <mroman_> Jafet: Ok, so potentially lethal self-injury
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11:19:28 <mroman_> they don't send you to a therapist just because of cutting that leaves ugly scars but isn't lethal
11:23:03 <Taneb> How did this topic arise
11:24:15 <Jafet> Don't worry, it will soon die off by itself
11:24:44 <Taneb> On another note... I am being really unproductive today
11:27:08 <scoofy> "In the late 19th century in Great Britain, attempted suicide was deemed to be equivalent to attempted murder and could be punished by hanging."
11:27:56 <scoofy> "if you didn't kill yourself, we will"
11:27:58 <Jafet> Hanged convicts lost their inheritance to the crown, I think
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12:58:09 <oerjan> <scoofy> well, it's easy - just keep ingesting more until you die <-- istr at least for some pills the problem is your body is too smart: you start vomiting it up faster than it can kill you
12:59:18 <Taneb> oerjan, I think that way you will eventually die (or get into serious medical straits) from vomiting too much
12:59:20 <oerjan> and i'd also imagine for some poisons, you might pass out and not die
13:00:22 <oerjan> also you cannot get to 100% with anything; you might be accidentally saved by an asteroid impact. somehow.
13:01:01 <olsner> or killed by the asteroid before the poison kicks in
13:01:14 <oerjan> Taneb: i think the point of the discussion was how to ensure you die with no risk of ending up seriously injured but alive
13:01:30 <oerjan> well part of the discussion anyway
13:01:31 <Jafet> It could be a small meteorite
13:02:29 <oerjan> meteorites are small asteroids or comets, aren't they
13:17:46 <mroman_> overdosing can cause liver failures
13:18:16 <mroman_> (overdosing can leave lots of permanent injuries if it fails)
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15:30:51 <Jafet> Apparently Windows 10 will have its very own SPARTAN-aftermarket sidekick: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cortana_(voice_assistant)
15:33:37 <Jafet> (Never mind, apparently it's already in phones)
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17:48:25 <zzo38> My opinion is making a SIGMEM signal that by default does nothing, but a program that can use a lot of memory that isn't mandatory should catch this signal in order to free any memory it doesn't need absolutely (such as a cache), and should probably also try to reallocate existing dynamic memory at the same size as it already was, and to malloc_trim(0)
17:48:48 <fizzie> Android has a thing like that.
17:49:33 <fizzie> There's an onTrimMemory callback you can implement, it's "Called when the operating system has determined that it is a good time for a process to trim unneeded memory from its process."
17:52:20 <shachaf> zzo38: I've suggested something like that before.
17:53:24 <zzo38> But I mean that even if the operating system is not running out of memory that you could call it manually by "kill -SIGMEM" command
17:54:41 <shachaf> If a program does its own caching instead of relying on the OS page cache, there's no reason for it to hog memory when someone else wants it.
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18:05:18 <HackEgo> mips/MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
18:05:41 <Jafet> Sounds like sched_yield, another interface that nobody ever uses.
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19:41:31 <zzo38> Is your music playing program a UNIX-style filter?
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20:38:44 <oerjan> what, hppavilion[1] left?
20:39:05 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] here's the comic i blathered about http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autowb516.html
20:39:28 <oerjan> stupid contrary universe.
20:49:34 <HackEgo> A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force.
20:51:31 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/relrod | grep summary:
20:51:32 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> learn A relrod is a machine useful for finding the Force.
20:55:10 <int-e> shachaf: it's in http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2015-04-02.txt ... hmm still don't get it.
20:56:21 <shachaf> 00:11:06: <boily> what's an elrod?
20:56:25 <shachaf> 00:11:58: <shachaf> relrod: You may be more qualified to answer that than I am.
20:56:28 <shachaf> 00:13:46: <boily> http://www.globalsino.com/EM/image1/3911.gif ???
20:56:31 <shachaf> 00:14:40: <oerjan> ah that must be the machine cern used to find the force
20:57:37 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends. He hates bell peppers with a passion.
20:57:52 <relrod> well that was ... anticlimatic.
20:57:59 <shachaf> 00:51:08: <relrod> shachaf: Lately I'm on a type theory thing. Trying to work with people in the math department at my school and have them let me do an Individual Study in type theory.
20:58:00 <int-e> (and no that wasn't ironic)
20:58:45 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
20:58:47 <shachaf> relrod: if it's anticlimactic feel free to change it hth
20:59:45 <int-e> `learn The universe was created as an opposing force to oerjan.
20:59:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'universe': The universe was created as an opposing force to oerjan.
21:00:12 <relrod> shachaf: re: your question -- in the math department, not so well, but I did get permission from my CS advisor to do some self-study courses using TaPL and CPDT, so there's that
21:00:36 <shachaf> i,i conflict-free propagated data type
21:01:32 <relrod> no, I got that. I've just never seen that expansion of that abbreviation.
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21:01:53 <lambdabot> Title: Certified Programming with Dependent Types
21:02:03 <shachaf> @google conflict-free propagated data type
21:02:03 <lambdabot> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict-free_replicated_data_type
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21:03:13 <relrod> shachaf: fine, you win. :P
21:03:43 <relrod> I don't know what you win though. Hopefully not money. Because I don't have any money to give you. :P
21:03:45 <shachaf> But now I remember Smerdyakov's book.
21:05:35 <Jafet> I,I ethical fair trade replicated data types
21:09:43 <shachaf> Jafet: also where did *you* get "I,I" from twh
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21:11:20 <HackEgo> 1151) <mauke> C++ is a superset of a subset of C
21:13:09 <HackEgo> 1245) <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there
21:13:58 <shachaf> `` hg log quotes | grep 'fact that it'
21:13:59 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> addquote <ais523> hppavilion1: there\'s not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there\'s interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it\'s there \ summary: <oerjan> addquote <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer
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21:17:17 <oerjan> <int-e> `learn The universe was created as an opposing force to oerjan. <-- YOU KNOW TOO MUCH
21:18:46 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/created/invented by Taneb/' wisdom/universe
21:23:29 <mroman_> For every oerjan there is an equal opposite oerjan
21:23:35 <mroman_> no matter how smart oerjan is
21:23:42 <mroman_> there's going to be someone who is equall dumb
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21:26:17 <HackEgo> The universe was invented by Taneb as an opposing force to oerjan.
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21:26:37 <oerjan> i guess that makes it better somehow.
21:26:41 <mroman_> and that person might just be me .
21:26:50 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
21:27:18 <int-e> The context was: <oerjan> stupid contrary universe.
21:28:33 <oerjan> mroman_: no, the equal opposite to me would be actually successful at what he does, not dumb. except in math and programming.
21:29:43 <mroman_> Yeah, I'm not sucessful at what I'm doing
21:30:03 <oerjan> actually, s/he/she/ for more stereotypical oppositeness
21:30:42 <oerjan> mroman_: that wouldn't be very opposite, i am not a gender neutral person.
21:32:15 <oerjan> i suppose this all depends on which parts are equal and which are opposite.
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21:40:56 <mroman_> what's the opposite of having 10 fingers?
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23:56:16 <zzo38> How do I cause it to read a manual page that I wrote?
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23:58:08 <zzo38> O, I may have figure out
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00:17:59 <Sgeo_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFLkou8NvJo
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00:24:30 <Sgeo_> nortti, I understand the end of the world a bit better now https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWeAsCzHvTo
00:26:49 <nortti> thanks. do you know if there exists a list of all songs released up to date, so I can check what I've missed
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00:29:32 <Sgeo_> http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Songs might be your best bet
00:30:17 <nortti> :/ would have liked a chronologically ordered one, but eeh, good enough
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00:30:58 <Sgeo_> chronologically as in in-world time, or as in release order?
00:33:29 <Sgeo_> http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Evillious_Chronicles#Song_Listing
00:33:39 <Sgeo_> Not certain if release order, but at least a few songs look right
00:35:18 <Sgeo_> I should make a playlist at some point
00:35:24 <Sgeo_> I don't think I've seen every song
00:52:19 <Sgeo_> nortti, hmm, that translation of Boy of the End seemed to imply to me that ONE of the endings is the true one, but wiki seems to suggest all of them will come true
00:57:17 <Sgeo_> THE WORLD ENDED ALREADY?!?
00:57:17 <Sgeo_> http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Punishment#History
00:57:37 <Sgeo_> I thought the songs were building up to revealing what the end would be, with the birth of Irregular etc.
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01:05:33 <oerjan> the world _must_ be ending, fungot has left
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01:43:50 <zzo38> Is this a proper way of to make man page? http://sprunge.us/HBIM It is work for me, but is the stuff written there how it should be written man page?
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03:53:02 <zzo38> Do you believe my guess of how the example codes in the [[Tangle bracket language]] is working, is correct?
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04:09:17 <zzo38> Putting a bent paperclip in the power supply worked!
04:14:59 <zzo38> Can I get Windows-like function key operation for bash?
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04:47:12 <zzo38> Such as F3=repeat last command (but keep what you have currently typed and delete those first few characters from the added text), F2=type another character and repeat previous like F3 but stop just before that character, F5=save last command but don't execute it, F8=search in history for command starting with what you have typed, F1=repeat one character from last command.
04:49:21 <zzo38> But it would help if F5 function it change text into different color so that you can know it didn't execute
04:57:29 <oren> I recommend learning the default keys for bash, that way you can use them on every linux box
04:58:14 <zzo38> Yes, but are any of these functions available?
04:58:43 <oren> ctrl-r is search history
04:58:46 <oren> http://www.bigsmoke.us/readline/shortcuts
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05:58:28 <zzo38> Some terminal emulator implement you can't read back the window title, for security purpose. But I have another idea, to have "secure read title" option, which when the program request the window title it will remember the current window title and send the index into its array of storage, so that it can still put back the window title how it was before, even without knowing what it is.
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06:21:01 <zzo38> OK, what kind of esoteric assembly language?
06:24:09 <myname> i do think most oisc languages cannot be put together
06:24:24 <myname> since you don't actually mention the instruction
06:24:41 <myname> you'd have to make the instruction depending on the value
06:24:55 <myname> it may be hard to do this without losing tc
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06:25:40 <hppavilion[1][0]> What I meant was taking the _possible instructions for use_ in a OISC
06:25:43 <myname> that would be pretty hard for e.g. subleq
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08:50:45 <coppro> ok so CPT-invariant thermodynamics is trippy
08:50:50 <coppro> but CP-invariant thermodynamics is bizarre
08:57:55 <b_jonas> which type of CPT-invariant termodynamics? the one that blames the edge conditions for low entropy?
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09:20:39 <zzo38> Can GCC optimize a multiplication of a boolean by a number?
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09:21:24 <Taneb> zzo38, that should either be 0 or an unspecified number?
09:21:33 <Taneb> I am not sure if such an optimization is valid
09:21:53 <Taneb> Say, if you're working with unsigned 16-bit ints
09:22:17 <zzo38> Most boolean operations are 0 or 1
09:22:33 <Taneb> zzo38, it's actually unspecified, I think
09:22:35 <zzo38> (Some might not be though)
09:24:46 <zzo38> As far as I know it is 0 or 1 if the built-in operators (not functions) are used, it seem to be. But in BASIC and Forth it is 0 and -1 instead.
09:27:39 <zzo38> And even in case where it is unspecified, you can guarantee to be zero if the second number is also zero. Possibly in a few cases this might be useful I don't quite know
09:27:54 <coppro> b_jonas: no, the general consequence of what happens to themodynamics under the T symmetry
09:27:58 <coppro> does it flip, or does it not?
09:29:09 <coppro> if it flips, that provides a potential explanation of the abundance of matter (it's thermodynamically favourable for antimatter to turn into matter, but not vice versa)
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09:29:19 <coppro> and it implies that in general, antimatter is not entropic but syntropic
09:29:53 <Jafet> `` cd /tmp && echo 'unsigned f(unsigned a, unsigned b) { return (a==b)*b; }' > bmul.c && gcc bmul.c -c -g -O3 -march=native && objdump -d bmul.o
09:30:08 <coppro> if thermodynamics does not flip, then antimatter is entropic, which means that the universe as a whole does not obey CPT symmetry, raising two questions: what will replace QFT for the theory of everything, since QFT can't violate CPT symmetry, and why does the arrow of time exist?
09:30:27 <HackEgo> \ bmul.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <f>: \ 0:31 c0 xor %eax,%eax \ 2:39 f7 cmp %esi,%edi \ 4:0f 94 c0 sete %al \ 7:0f af c6 imul %esi,%eax \ a:c3 retq
09:30:54 <Jafet> So, this gcc does not.
09:31:05 <coppro> syntropic antimatter also raises the question of whether or not you can convey information backwards in time using it
09:31:16 <Jafet> `` cd /tmp && echo 'unsigned f(unsigned a, unsigned b) { return a==b? b : 0; }' > bmul.c && gcc bmul.c -c -g -O3 -march=native && objdump -d bmul.o
09:31:19 <coppro> since it would obey retrocausality, not causality
09:31:23 <HackEgo> \ bmul.o: file format elf64-x86-64 \ \ \ Disassembly of section .text: \ \ 0000000000000000 <f>: \ 0:89 f0 mov %esi,%eax \ 2:39 f7 cmp %esi,%edi \ 4:ba 00 00 00 00 mov $0x0,%edx \ 9:0f 45 c2 cmovne %edx,%eax \ c:c3 retq
09:38:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: clang: not found
09:39:07 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: tcc: not found
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10:01:08 <zzo38> Can you access memory usage data including buffer/cache in Linux without parsing the /proc/meminfo file?
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10:15:11 <Deewiant> Yes, you can be root and parse all the /proc/$pid/smaps files instead
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10:18:22 <zzo38> I mean don't parsing any file
10:18:32 <zzo38> (nor the output of the free command)
10:19:51 <zzo38> I did look at the source-codes of how it is implemented in /proc/meminfo it says cached = global_page_state(NR_FILE_PAGES) - total_swapcache_pages() - i.bufferram;
10:20:37 <int-e> zzo38: does sysinfo() miss anything you need?
10:20:52 <zzo38> Yes, it misses the cache memory amount
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10:33:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: apart from directly accessing the memory usage data, you can try running the "free" or "top" programs.
10:34:42 <b_jonas> but those programs probably actually get most of their data from /proc files on Linux
10:35:11 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell Firefox to display the percent-encodings of Unicode characters in the location bar rather than the characters themself?
10:35:27 <b_jonas> zzo38: apart from that, you can try using the sysinfo() system call, which gives some memory usage statistics data
10:36:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes but sysinfo() doesn't have the cache amount
10:37:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: as for that, I think if you copy the url to the clipboard (eg. by pressing control-L control-C ), it copies the original version with percent encodes.
10:38:36 <zzo38> Yes I know, but I want it to display the percent encodings all the time
10:39:19 <Deewiant> zzo38: For details like that I think parsing /proc is the only way to go in user space. Alternatively you can write a kernel module to get a more machine-readable form
10:41:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know how to do that then. Maybe there's some well-hidden setting or a firefox extension that does that.
10:46:07 <zzo38> I want the status bar also to display percent encodings
11:04:53 <zzo38> Actually I think I found the problem, it is a function called "losslessDecodeURI" in browser.js, but I am not sure how to override it (in userChrome.js)
11:05:50 <Taneb> Is there a proof that brainfuck is NOT turing complete with only two (unbounded) cells?
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11:33:01 <zzo38> I managed to fix that function, it is not so difficult to fix. I did: window.losslessDecodeURI=function(aURI) { return aURI.spec; };
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11:39:14 <Jafet> It's probably true, but no one's made a proof yet
11:42:43 <zzo38> Then you should try to prove it by yourself.
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11:45:26 <Jafet> I'm not sure what kind of reduction would be used to prove it, since most lower computational classes are finite in some sense
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14:37:29 <fungot> fizzie: chipmunk says: nice job on ooe on c.l.s. right now i'm using cvs, but it's a pretty lowlevel basic right?
14:37:45 <fizzie> fungot: CVS, very retro.
14:37:45 <fungot> fizzie: it is quite unreadable...)) expression)
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15:14:57 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
15:15:00 <tswett> "It's not much for a turing complete IP to use somewhat bad parts, and then you will confuse every cpu call"
15:18:07 <ais523> what input did you give it to produce that?
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15:18:36 <ais523> I mean, it's not actually a meaningful sentence, but it does look meaningful until you read it multiple times
15:18:37 <ais523> I mean, it's not actually a meaningful sentence, but it does look meaningful until you read it multiple times
15:18:52 <tswett> The #esoteric IRC logs.
15:19:03 <tswett> I think the ones for April and part of May, maybe?
15:20:01 <tswett> Taneb: a finite state machine with access to a two-unbounded-cell brainfuck tape can simulate Fractran, so that would be Turing-complete.
15:20:21 <tswett> So if brainfuck with two unbounded cells is *not* Turing-complete, it must be because brainfuck's flow control isn't powerful enough.
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15:21:28 <shachaf> `` ln -s universe wisdom/the\ universe
15:21:32 <Taneb> tswett, oerjan proved that three cells was enough
15:21:47 <Taneb> So I was wondering if it's possible to go deeper, so to speak
15:22:02 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/Go,/Go, the universe,/' wisdom/tanebvention
15:23:01 <ais523> wait, you can't just arbitrarily declare Taneb to have invented arbitrary things
15:24:33 <tswett> `le/rn fundamental theorem of Taneb/The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing that Taneb did not invent.
15:24:35 <HackEgo> Learned «fundamental theorem of taneb»
15:24:41 <tswett> `? fundamental theorem of Taneb
15:24:42 <HackEgo> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing that Taneb did not invent.
15:28:30 <ais523> is that the Taneb version of omega-incompleteness?
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15:28:37 <ais523> (if I have an omega on my compose key, I don't know where it is)
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15:29:45 <tswett> What's omega-incompleteness?
15:29:59 <comodvs> does anyone here have The Book of Nymphs, Sylphs, Pygmies, and Salamanders by Paracelsus
15:31:06 <HackEgo> comodvs: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:31:50 <comodvs> i'm looking for this book all over the internet, but i can't find it in any place :/
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15:36:17 <ais523> possibly the wrong #esoteric, hard to tell though
15:36:29 <ais523> tswett: oh, I was thinking of omega-inconsistency
15:36:57 <ais523> it's where a proof system allows you to prove that a property is true for some number, but also allows you to prove it to be false for any specific number
15:48:08 <Jafet> Inaccessible fungot.
15:48:08 <fungot> Jafet: can i help you?. if you have " all permissions"? implementing them for some time, could you just send a /msg if you want something like this
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16:09:26 <tswett> Doink. In my client, ais523 and fungot's nicks have the same length and color, so I thought that ais523 said what fungot said.
16:09:26 <fungot> tswett: my own test cases with m-o c to send to a scheme simulator: i was reading it and pondering about iguanas...)
16:09:53 <tswett> But it looked pretty fungotty, so I figured maybe ais523 invoked fungot privately and then just pasted fungot's response to the channel.
16:09:53 <fungot> tswett: stop being an associative list. but that's just to annoy sonera disconnects me?
16:11:04 <shachaf> is tswett being an associative list again
16:11:21 <Jafet> fungot: you're in the UK now, Sonera can't disconnect you.
16:11:23 <tswett> I'm: sorry; I: can't help it;
16:12:13 <ais523> `addquote <fungot> tswett: stop being an associative list. [...] <shachaf> is tswett being an associative list again <tswett> I'm: sorry; I: can't help it;
16:12:14 <fungot> ais523: i'm just a mere functionary who knows how that happens, matters, unless humans start pursuing and succeed in the turing test...)
16:12:16 <HackEgo> 1249) <fungot> tswett: stop being an associative list. [...] <shachaf> is tswett being an associative list again <tswett> I'm: sorry; I: can't help it;
16:13:59 <Jafet> fungotionary, the herald of the turing test
16:13:59 <fungot> Jafet: take it up the ass. boxes are as bad as last time we did this using the above formula as 0 1 2 3))
16:15:10 <Jafet> I don't think that aspect of human behaviour is exercised by the test.
16:15:40 <tswett> Lessee if I can find that list of bot prefixes.
16:15:57 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
16:16:43 <tswett> I wonder if lambdabot also responds to its name.
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16:20:07 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
16:20:21 <juzo> como estan todos
16:20:24 <tswett> Pero yo hablo español un poco.
16:20:47 <x10A94> Holy hell, why do you need so many bots?
16:21:04 <ais523> we don't need this many, but there are a bunch of programmers here
16:21:07 <ais523> so it just tends to happen
16:21:15 <ais523> often we just write the bots for the sake of something to write
16:21:21 <ais523> (and most of them aren't connected at any given moment in time)
16:21:29 <tswett> No los *necesitamos*, pero nos gustan.
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16:21:46 <Taneb> x10A94, we don't have that many, just fungot EgoBot glogbot HackEgo lambdabot idris-bot j-bot zemhill__ and half of myndzi
16:21:46 <fungot> Taneb: " fnord" either, but i
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16:22:01 <ais523> Taneb: you forgot about clog and glogbot
16:22:05 <ais523> although that's understandable because they don't talk
16:22:07 <Taneb> ais523, I got glogbot
16:22:22 <tswett> Pues, voy a ducharme. Hasta pronto.
16:22:23 <Taneb> Still, we're at less than 10% bot
16:22:25 <ais523> I assumed that forgetting one would make you forget the other
16:22:31 <ais523> when was cmeme last here, btw?
16:22:52 <Taneb> ais523, I tend to use glogbot's logs and not clog's logs
16:23:14 <tswett> Man, I can't wait to get autochat9000 in here.
16:23:22 <tswett> One sec, lemme register that nick.
16:23:27 <Taneb> I should resurrect pietbot
16:23:35 <ais523> did pietbot ever end up in-channel?
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16:23:50 <ais523> I don't have a huge urge to resurrect thutubot, but it was fun for a while
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16:23:59 <Taneb> Never actually said anything
16:23:59 <ais523> anyway, in terms of bots we actually /need
16:24:15 <Taneb> It could connect, register with nickserv, join the channel, idle until commanded to do something, then crash
16:24:23 <Taneb> Or hang, I can't remember
16:24:30 <ais523> probably HackEgo + one logbot would be enough by itself (also, lambdabot is useful at the times this channel turns into a second #haskell rather than doing its day job)
16:24:37 <ais523> and to be fair, like three quarters of HackEgo is useless
16:24:47 <ais523> but a bunch of useful stuff got copied there too
16:24:51 <ais523> the useless stuff is used more often though
16:25:48 <Jafet> `` echo 'bienvenido | rainwords' > bin/arienvenido && chmod +x bin/arienvenido
16:26:45 <ais523> how often do we need a rainbow-coloured welcome in Spanish? answer: even less often than we need a rainbow-coloured welcome in English, which is never
16:26:50 <Jafet> `` echo 'bienvenido "$@" | rainwords' > bin/arienvenido && chmod +x bin/arienvenido
16:27:17 <Taneb> I have a cinema to get to
16:27:25 <ais523> I remember when the topic was the "The international hub…" one for months or years at a time
16:27:35 <ais523> and the ontopic discussion happened more often and was more interesting
16:27:42 <ais523> and the offtopic discussion was terrible and made you not want to be here at all
16:27:52 <fizzie> tswett: FWIW, Freenode recommends you register bots with a separate NickServ account: https://freenode.net/faq.shtml#nicksetup step #6: "The exception to this is where you might want to run a bot. You should register a separate account for your bot."
16:27:56 <ais523> nowadays the offtopic discussion is mostly inoffensive and the ontopic discussion is much less of a draw
16:28:57 <Jafet> Well, I tried proving that two-cell brainfuck is decidable but lost interest
16:29:19 <ais523> two-cell bignum, I take it
16:29:39 <tswett> fizzie: *nod* Do you know why that is?
16:29:54 <ais523> is there ever a benefit to an unbalanced loop in that language?
16:29:57 <Jafet> The idea I had was that each loop leaves one cell zero, so one could try to squeeze this into a pushdown automaton stack
16:30:13 <ais523> tswett: I imagine so that you don't get spammed with "someone is connecting from your account" messages when you're online at the same time as the bot
16:30:27 <ais523> and so that a malfunctioning bot can be banned without affecting its owner
16:30:29 <fizzie> I think I saw some rationale somewhere, but it was more about if your bot is misbehaving it being not tied to your account so much.
16:31:19 <fizzie> And maybe also to not make your channel-operatory privileges available to someone who can take control of the bot.
16:31:27 <Jafet> It's also not clear whether it could be more powerful if <> didn't wrap around or if - on a zero cell has no effect
16:32:44 <ais523> with 2-cell BF, you can do a "multiply by constant" operation
16:32:54 <ais523> on one of the cells, while the other is zero
16:32:59 <ais523> this is a known path to infinite storage
16:33:11 <ais523> the problem is if you can do the corresponding "check for divisibility
16:33:19 <ais523> that's needed to make use of the info
16:33:21 <Jafet> Two-counter minsky machines have a conditional branch though
16:33:31 <ais523> yes, the problem here is that the loops are nested
16:33:33 <Jafet> That's why this problem is interesting, I suppose
16:33:49 <ais523> actually I'm reminded of that BF variant I made with an ambiguously spelled name
16:34:03 <ais523> that's also almost certainly TC if it has goto
16:34:11 <ais523> but the fact that loops need to nest makes things interesting
16:34:25 <ais523> (the two might be equivalent, actually)
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17:36:01 <ais523> global notices have typos in nowadays? :-D
17:38:49 <tswett> I've noticed that Brits can say "in" where we Americans would have to say "in them" or "in it".
17:39:27 <ais523> it's an elision, which were always /technically/ legal but mostly only used in poetry
17:39:32 <ais523> that one's been catching on though
17:39:49 <tswett> I think for me, "in" implies that it's the sort of thing which is inserted and removed on a regular basis.
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17:40:25 <tswett> ais523 saw what I said and immediately ragequit.
17:40:58 <tswett> You can say "a VCR with a tape in", or "a gun with bullets in", but not "a notice with typos in".
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17:41:52 <tswett> Come to think of it, you can't say "a glass with water in" either.
17:42:23 <tswett> Unless it has some special compartment for water which is separate from the main part of the glass.
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18:48:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MOISC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43568 * Hppavilion1 * (+890) Created Page
18:51:34 <lambdabot> LOWI 221820Z 27014KT 9999 FEW070CB SCT085 BKN140 21/18 Q1015 NOSIG
18:55:07 <hppavilion1> So in other news, I'm making a simple assembly language for use by educational institutions teaching Compiler Design
19:02:00 <coppro> hppavilion1: because there aren't enough of those already
19:02:30 <hppavilion1> I've never heard of one, but now that you mention it there are probably thousands
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19:23:17 <oerjan> wut, the logs have a reasonably correct clock
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19:43:01 <zzo38> Is there program it can helping you to make command-line version of many websites?
19:55:47 <oerjan> well, the codu logs. i haven't checked tunes.
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21:37:33 <oerjan> Hm so here is my "ideal" made-up-on-the-spot system. It somewhat combines all of 2, 3 and 4 from https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/wiki/Commentary/Compiler/GenericDeriving#InteractionwithGeneralizedNewtypeDeriving. It is intended to be backwards-compatible, except for one added warning.
21:37:37 <oerjan> * By 3, classes may be annotated (pragma?) to say they prefer GND or DAC deriving. Builtin-derived classes count as annotated for their own style of deriving. To actually derive a class in a module, any extension for the derivation style still needs to be enabled as well.
21:37:42 <oerjan> * By 4, if `GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving` is enabled, the `newtype` keyword may be used to signify that an instance for a newtype should be GND derived, even if this is against the annotated behavior for the class. This might even include builtin-derived classes like `Show`. (Obviously not `Typeable`, though.)
21:37:46 <oerjan> * Also by 4, if both `GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving` and `DeriveAnyClass` are enabled (or for least surprise, maybe even with just the latter), the `default` keyword may be used to signify that an instance for a newtype should ''not'' be GND-derived, even if this is the annotated behavior for the class.
21:37:51 <oerjan> * By 2, if ''neither'' the newtype deriving nor the class is annotated, then the behavior depends on which of `GeneralizedNewtypeDeriving` and `DeriveAnyClass` is enabled. If ''both'' are enabled, then a ''warning'' should be given. (This prevents surprises when a user adds both extensions for unrelated instances.) Then it defaults to DAC as today.
21:37:56 <oerjan> * Although the proper extensions need to be enabled for whichever annotations/derivation styles end up being used, the ''only'' case where simply changing the extensions enabled will change code from one legal style of derivation to another should be the one in the previous point. (And thus the warning.)
21:38:02 <oerjan> As of now, I don't remember any classes with builtin-derivations that also are useful with `DeriveAnyClass`. So I think there isn't much need to be able to distinguish those two cases. Which also means that none of this matters to `data` declarations, only `newtype`.
21:38:06 <oerjan> i guess you all got to read me latest ghc trac post hth
21:38:32 * oerjan belatedly shortens clipboard
21:39:17 <oerjan> well, anyone awake, anyway.
21:39:45 <Taneb> Ant-Man was good on a second watch
21:40:13 <HackEgo> Thanks, watcher. Thatcher.
21:40:23 <oerjan> Taneb: i was just thinking i shouldn't do that
21:40:31 <int-e> `le/rn watch Too late!
21:40:58 <oerjan> i though `le/rn had got that bug fixed...
21:41:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
21:41:10 <int-e> `le/rn watch/Too late!
21:41:53 <int-e> `rm wisdom/watch Too late!
21:41:54 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/watch Too late!': No such file or directory
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21:42:15 <int-e> `rm wisdom/watch too late!
21:43:12 <nortti> Sgeo_: I think I might get how the four ends work. in the song, it's mentioned that depending on who you are, hänsel appears holding either a knife or a bottle, and either as an angel or a mad familiar. maybe which of the four ends happens depends on the person?
21:43:41 <oerjan> `` echo 'Spjætt!' >canary
21:44:30 <oerjan> those were interjections i remember from a norwegian translation of bloom county (or outland) hth
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21:53:00 <int-e> `` sed -i 1a'[[ "$1" = */* ]] || exit' bin/slashlearn
21:53:43 <int-e> `le/rn no slash test
21:54:28 <int-e> `le/rn /no keyword test
21:54:55 <int-e> there's no test for lack of content
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21:55:12 <int-e> shachaf: in your dreams!
21:55:21 <shachaf> Though mk also has this issue.
21:55:48 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
21:56:16 <int-e> (why did I read the bash manpage to find [[ ]] when I could've looked there?
21:56:36 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/mk: line 1: : No such file or directory
21:58:22 <int-e> presumably you could test for ?*//*
21:59:35 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/\*/?*/' bin/mk
22:03:48 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is there a proof that brainfuck is NOT turing complete with only two (unbounded) cells? <-- hm it _should_ be possibly to deduce from the presumably known fact that a minsky inc/dec machine with 1 cell is not TC
22:04:19 <Taneb> oerjan, isn't that a push-down automaton
22:04:26 <Taneb> known to be sub-TC
22:04:47 <oerjan> Taneb: um i'm not sure, i just assume it's known and stuff
22:05:05 <oerjan> since otherwise, why would they keep blathering about the 2-cell one.
22:05:29 <int-e> that's unclear... a 2 counter minsky machine is TC, and the proof I know works by simultating a 3 counter machine by dealing with numbers 2^a 3^b 5^c
22:05:48 <int-e> (and 3 counters are good for two stacks, hence a tape)
22:06:06 <oerjan> int-e: i'm talking about _1_-cell without multiplication or division
22:06:27 <int-e> but 1 cell isn't even a push-down automaton
22:06:35 <Taneb> oerjan, can you @tell me the answer? I'm going to bed now
22:06:51 <int-e> (well... it is a degenerated one, I guess that's what Taneb meant...)
22:07:19 <oerjan> well my point is that i think 2-cell bf is reducible to 1-cell minsky after a terminating starting phase.
22:07:47 <oerjan> namely, run it until you leave a loop for the first time
22:07:48 <int-e> oerjan: I know. For brainfuck, you need to be very precise about the rules of stepping over the tape boundaries, I think
22:08:17 <oerjan> (alternatively until you get to an infinite innermost loop)
22:08:50 <oerjan> once you've left a loop, you're always in a state where one cell is _known_ to have a finite set of possible values.
22:09:00 <int-e> because if you can stop off the tape, reading zeros, but not being allowed to modify the cells, then you can encode some finite state information in the pointer.
22:09:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Giargiano * New user account
22:09:41 <oerjan> int-e: um, 2 cells. you can assuming the tape wraps if you want.
22:10:46 <oerjan> int-e: i think that's rather useless since the fs info has to be lost before you can change a cell again...
22:11:02 <oerjan> also, you cannot loop in an all-zero region
22:11:03 <int-e> that would be precise enough. and in that case I think it's strictly more powerful than a minsky machine with a single counter (for example, you can multiply a given input by 2), but I do believe it's not TC.
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22:12:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Randwork]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43569&oldid=25072 * Giargiano * (+88) +Perl interpreter
22:16:01 <oerjan> oh hm that step-off-the tape thing is subtle, because you can use it to escape loops.
22:16:49 <oerjan> i don't think that's very in the spirit of what Taneb is asking, though.
22:17:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Randwork]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43570&oldid=43569 * Giargiano * (+22) /* External resources */
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22:48:36 <zzo38> I thought of a new kind of package manager idea, where each package except anonymous packages are identified by URI (used only for identification and does not necessarily ahve to point to anything), categories of packages are themself virtual packages, there is a local root package whose specification is specifying which packages are installed, and that you can also load packages from stdin and emit packages to stdout, so it can act as a filter too.
22:54:22 <zzo38> Relation of packages might be: "X requires Y", "X suggests Y", "X is a version of Y", "X is a substitute for Y". Packages can also have custom properties that any package that substitutes for it or is a version of it must override. Virtual packages are allowed to be named or anonymous, and you can't really install/uninstall it rather it determine automatically if it is considered installed or not by its specification.
22:57:58 <zzo38> In order to avoid entering the entire URI for each package you can define a prefix by the package manager's "add-prefix" command.
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23:05:10 <zzo38> Other relations can be defined using the existing ones. The virtual package specifications might include: any of X, all of X, none of X. Therefore a "X conflicts with Y" relation might be noted by: X :requires [ :not Y ]
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23:11:41 <zzo38> Actually the way I mentioned custom property isn't quite best way, I think; a better way is: A package can specify which custom properties must be overridden by packages with the specified relation to this package. For example if the root package has a custom property for a configuration path and it specifies that any package that depends on it must override it, then the root package depends on that package and the root package will specify the conf
23:12:27 <zzo38> If a package is installed only due to requirement from some other package, then the root package does not depend on it and therefore it can know to uninstall when not needed.
23:15:24 <zzo38> Do other package managers use a "root package" like this?
23:16:00 <zzo38> This would also easily allow you to make packages that can be installed for individual users because each user can also have their own root package too.
23:19:58 <zzo38> What is your opinions of all of these things?
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23:45:16 <zzo38> Ordering of versions numbers, including possible of breaking compatibility, can be specified using the stuff I have mentioned so far! (Do you see how?)
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23:54:57 <zzo38> But the thing still not mentioned yet is for a virtual package's criteria to check for values of custom-properties, for example you might have a "FamicomVM" virtual package; packages that substitute for it (i.e. FamicomVM implementations, or NES/Famicom emulators) must override custom-properties to indicate mapper and input device implementations, and a game might specify a dependency on a virtual package which requires iNES mapper #0 and keyboard e
23:59:09 <zzo38> And I believe that is all of the stuff you will need, isn't it?
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01:07:22 <lambdabot> CYUL 230100Z 30008KT 15SM BKN075 BKN100 20/12 A2978 RMK AC6AC1 SLP083 DENSITY ALT 800FT
01:07:33 <lambdabot> ENVA 230050Z 12005KT 9999 SCT019 BKN034 11/10 Q1007 RMK WIND 670FT 16005KT
01:10:13 * boily prefers his own north
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01:21:29 <boily> bonne ørjanuit! try not to freeze off too much!
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01:27:27 <lambdabot> CYVR 230100Z 21007KT 30SM FEW045TCU FEW075 OVC250 20/12 A2988 RMK TCU1AC1CS6 SLP117 DENSITY ALT 600FT
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01:39:21 <zzo38> On this computer I cannot access the CPU/power/disk/etc temperatures from Linux, only the CMOS setting menu can access it
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02:00:00 <oren> Suppose you have C, but with a completely different standard library.
02:01:12 <zzo38> OK what kind of completely different standard library is it?
02:01:26 <oren> would that be a C variant or would it not qualify as C.
02:01:46 <zzo38> I don't know for sure?
02:02:13 <oren> does the C spec say that, for example, there must be a funcion called malloc with such and such semantics?
02:09:35 <oren> Apparently the C spec has provisions for a "freestanding environment", so it would still be C
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04:38:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 966 * New user account
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04:47:20 <zzo38> I fixed utftovlq and made a man page too
04:48:35 <zzo38> http://sprunge.us/OcXA http://sprunge.us/bCYf
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05:07:13 <oren> god damn it what are all these stupid forms
05:07:43 <oren> why do I have to fill out a million forms?!!?
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05:19:30 <oren> also why does the bank kkep asking me about all this bullshit? I just want to keep my money, all in one damn bank account, end of!
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05:47:16 <Sgeo_> Thought utftovlq was rot13 for a few seconds
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05:51:08 <oren> I wonder if it is a viable option to put all my money in my dad's account and let him deal with all this crap
05:52:28 <shachaf> just put it in my account and i'll deal with it for you hth
05:55:09 <oren> lol. seriously how do I get them to stop sending me emails about their "mutual funds"
05:56:48 <shachaf> Click the unsubscribe link?
05:57:23 <shachaf> Or maybe put a bunch of money into their mutual funds. They're sure to stop bugging you if you do that.
06:01:02 <oren> I found it. the unsubscribe is not on the email itself but in yor settings after you log in
06:02:08 <oren> stupid online banking. I want a goblin to hand me my money.
06:03:48 <shachaf> oren: have you considered putting your money into my mutual funds? hth
06:15:52 <zzo38> Sgeo_: Well, it is not ROT13 (although, with a proper translation file you can make ROT13 with it)
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07:42:27 <Walpurgisnacht> The reason we blow up fireworks on the 4th of July isn't for celebration its to scare the founding fathers and stop them from rising from their grave to feed off the flesh of the free
07:50:39 <Taneb> Guy Fawkes night is similar in the UK
07:51:13 <Taneb> It does amuse me that we have a bonfire night and fireworks display every year to celebrate the foiling of a terrorist plot
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07:51:50 <Taneb> Celebrates the foiling of the Gunpowder Plot of 1605
07:52:02 <Taneb> Guy Fieri is a different guy altogether
07:52:53 <Taneb> Basically, a bunch of catholic terrorists decided to blow the Houses of Parliament up, and King James I of England and VI of Scotland with it
07:54:15 <Taneb> And were foiled because one of them wrote a letter warning one of his friends to stay away that day
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08:01:01 <Taneb> It's a well known thing in England
08:01:11 <Taneb> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder_Plot
08:02:36 <Taneb> Walpurgisnacht, it's a good thing lambdabot has @ask and @tell commands, so if I'm not active you can send me a message into the future!
08:03:48 <Walpurgisnacht> What do you expertise in computer wise/programming wise Taneb
08:04:19 <Taneb> Functional programming, I guess?? I'm really more on the path to becoming a mathematician
08:06:03 <Walpurgisnacht> Because there are a lot of fields so I want to rework my Question so its based on that field
08:06:29 <Taneb> I don't know, just go with what you are most comfortable with
08:06:34 <Taneb> I'm reasonably adaptable
08:06:55 <Taneb> I'm gonna head to work now, see you later!
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08:22:02 <Jafet> Taneb is a renaissance man
08:22:09 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, the universe, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
08:22:52 <Jafet> `` fgrep -lr 'Taneb invented' wisdom
08:22:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/stephen wolfram \ wisdom/chu space \ wisdom/automatic squirrel feeder \ wisdom/fundamental theorem of taneb \ wisdom/persistence \ wisdom/weetoflake \ wisdom/torus \ wisdom/d-module \ wisdom/this sentence
08:23:16 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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09:12:43 <Taneb> `? fundamental theorem of taneb
09:12:44 <HackEgo> The Fundamental Theorem of Taneb states that for all strings S, if S describes a thing, then it is provable that Taneb invented the thing described by S; and, furthermore, that it is provable that there exists a string T that describes a thing that Taneb did not invent.
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10:26:55 <int-e> . o O ( 'METRO' is a meteorological recording organization (see also: METAR) )
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10:31:26 <HackEgo> U+1F4AC SPEECH BALLOON \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 ac UTF-16BE: d83ddcac Decimal: 💬 \ 💬 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F4AD THOUGHT BALLOON \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 ad UTF-16BE: d83ddcad Decimal: 💭 \ 💭 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
10:32:42 <Jafet> But they're not combining
10:48:39 <fizzie> COMBINING ENCLOSING KEYCAP
10:51:26 <fizzie> (My terminal seriously mangles that, but in the browser it's not that bad.
10:56:43 <boily> oooooh! a character I can see correctly!
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11:24:48 <HackEgo> U+1F4AE WHITE FLOWER \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 ae UTF-16BE: d83ddcae Decimal: 💮 \ 💮 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+27BF DOUBLE CURLY LOOP \ UTF-8: e2 9e bf UTF-16BE: 27bf Decimal: ➿ \ ➿ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F4A2 ANGER SYMBOL \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 a2 UTF-16
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11:27:00 <HackEgo> x10A94: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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12:48:59 <mroman_> I am the fnord that spits in your cereal in the morning.
12:49:30 <oerjan> luckily i don't eat cereal *MWAHAHAHA*
12:51:37 <mroman_> who needs breakfast anyway
12:52:09 <Taneb> I had a croissant this morning
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12:53:05 <Taneb> Are you trying to say you're better than me or something
12:53:21 <Taneb> Because I... had a *chocolate* croissant
12:53:28 <oerjan> don't worry, i had none.
12:53:40 <oerjan> although i have chocolate, so i can compensate.
12:54:59 <fizzie> I ate a piece of carrot cake, but not for breakfast.
12:55:12 <mroman_> I ate a chocolate croissant.
12:55:31 <mroman_> and an M-Budget Energy Drink
12:55:49 <fizzie> #esoteric seems to be the channel of choice for chocolate croissant connoisseurs.
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12:58:35 <oerjan> clearly some mercurial subprogram.
12:59:04 <Taneb> Does it convert utf to vlq
12:59:25 <oerjan> no, i think it brings us all doom through the singularity.
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13:07:04 <Taneb> I really need to be less lazy
13:07:15 <Taneb> And also remember to read the question in exams
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13:19:44 <Taneb> I could have got 11 more percentage points if I had just read the question as "Recognizes the empty language" rather than "Recognizes a language which accepts the empty string"
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13:25:30 <fizzie> Did you have to define a something that does that thing?
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13:31:41 <zzo38> Taneb: Yes it can convert UTF to VLQ, that is one function it can be use
13:32:30 <Taneb> fizzie, I had to show that it was undecidable
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14:04:20 <mroman_> hm. E2EE is probably hard for group chats...
14:05:04 <mroman_> Is there a scheme like diffie hellman that involves multiple participants?
14:05:48 <Phantom_Hoover> i still can't get over the proof i saw in a lecture that the word problem is decidable for hyperbolic groups
14:06:39 <oerjan> was it an exaggerated proof
14:06:50 <Phantom_Hoover> because it nonconstructively proves that some TM exists that recognises trivial elements, but there's no reason to believe that finding that TM is computable
14:17:55 <b_jonas> mroman_: you don't want a primitive scheme for that, but instead build a composite one from the trusted primitives
14:57:13 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/cR6ropdk <- I'm a crazy or am I not.
14:59:01 <mroman_> but it's not generic enough yet!
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15:07:52 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/7iW6XTy3 <- much better
15:08:13 <mroman_> You can even choose if it should join on the threads for the result list or not :)
15:10:24 <mroman_> it should probably do results.notify(); ?
15:10:36 <mroman_> so you can wait on the result list
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15:12:52 <mroman_> Yep. That way you can set join=false and then read the list with wait
15:13:19 <Taneb> I still maintain that centaurs are insects
15:13:47 <fizzie> The whole thing looks like something you should be using Futures (for getting results) and Executors (for specifying the threading policy etc.) for.
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15:19:06 <oerjan> Taneb: does that mean insectoid centaurs are spiders?
15:19:49 <Taneb> The definition of insect I learnt in first school was "6 limbs, three distinct body segments"
15:21:08 <mroman_> fizzie: This is more of a "broadcasting"-thingy actually
15:21:49 <fizzie> mroman_: Yes, but collect should return a CompletableFuture<List<E>> and take an Executor on which to run the tasks.
15:22:01 <fizzie> Also I think it needs more bounded wildcards, because that's modern. Maybe you could manage to have addCallback take a Callable<? super T, ? extends E> if you really try.
15:22:02 <mroman_> and Executor isn't something you can repeatedly use for Callbacks?
15:22:30 <mroman_> collect could use Futures I guess
15:22:57 <mroman_> why would I want super/extends?
15:23:09 <fizzie> Because then you have more freedom with what kind of callbacks you can pass, of course.
15:27:08 <mroman_> but ? super T looks suspicious
15:27:14 <mroman_> because then you can pass even Object?
15:27:36 <fizzie> No, it means you can pass in a Callable<Object, Whatever>, which should be legal.
15:27:52 <fizzie> Because a callback that takes an Object should be okay to use everywhere.
15:29:12 <fizzie> And vice versa for the return type -- with ? extends E, you can have a Callable<Object, VeryNarrowType> and you can put its return value into List<SlightlyLessNarrowType>. Anyway.
15:29:32 <mroman_> you would still get List<E> back
15:30:12 <mroman_> but you can i.e. have a Callpool<Object, Object> wich a Callable<Object, Integer> in it
15:30:20 <mroman_> and collect would return List<Object> in that case
15:31:01 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/7iW6XTy3 <- like that
15:32:06 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/bGxtvZbj <- that one
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20:15:09 <zzo38> How to install the section 3 man pages for X?
20:24:20 <zzo38> Actually maybe I found it now
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20:32:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[O]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43571&oldid=43567 * Phase * (+52) link to online interpreter
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00:17:08 <oerjan> wait, why isn't that one word
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00:28:37 <Sgeo_> Do the mutations that cause cancer occur on a small enough scale that quantum randomness comes into play, or is it still large enough that it's more like physically rolling a dice, hard to tell what will happen but still deterministic?
00:28:42 <oren> good eving oerjan!
00:29:11 <oren> Sgeo: I'm pretty sure it must be the latter
00:30:32 <oren> because DNA and the proteins that manipulate it are very big molecules, at high temperature
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00:32:59 <oren> and they're immersed in water too, i don't see much chance of an isolated quantum thingy forming
00:33:48 <Sgeo_> How about if it's caused by radiation? Would the radiation itself that caused the mutation likely have been random and might have missed?
00:34:35 <HackEgo> ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞/̼͚͇̮͕̘̳̞̤̜̯̪̘̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓
00:35:25 <boily> back from a free punk show downtown!
00:37:52 <oerjan> Sgeo_: radioactive radiation is definitely quantum random
00:38:21 <shachaf> boily: are you a free punk
00:38:44 <Sgeo_> But would be impossible to know if a given cancer was caused by radioactive radiation or not
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00:40:10 <boily> Sgeo_: that would imply carcinogenic cancerous radioactive radiation.
00:40:27 <boily> shachaf: only when it comes to hot-dogs.
00:41:00 <boily> (there were free hot-dogs. I had mine all dressed.)
00:41:24 <Sgeo_> So if many-worlds is correct, there would be at least some "nearby" "universes"/"branches" where some people who got cancer did not, and some people who did not get cancer did
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00:42:44 * boily drinks a can of nước yến ngân nhĩ
00:43:05 <oren> yah. but if fatalism is correct, quantum random things only seem random.
00:43:34 <shachaf> I hope fatalism isn't correct.
00:43:44 <shachaf> It doesn't sound like a good outlook.
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00:44:13 <Sgeo_> I think sometimes I use it as a coping mechanism but that might be unhealthy
00:44:39 <shachaf> It sounds fatal, in fact. That's the whole joke of what I'm saying.
00:44:39 <Sgeo_> Well, almost-fatalism, I exclude quantum random events that affect the macro world from it
00:44:52 <shachaf> Not much content to it. Not that there was much content to the channel before.
00:45:58 <Sgeo_> I think there are some true but harmful beliefs. Imagine if someone died in an accident, and you can't stop thinking about how if you just did one little thing different they might still be alive. It's probably true, but that has to be mind destroying
00:48:31 <oren> boily: viet soda?
00:48:59 <Sgeo_> Anyway, regardless of scientific reality, I think I have a WritingPrompt idea based on this, at least, although I've never done WritingPrompts before
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00:49:13 <Sgeo_> Although maybe not
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00:52:39 <boily> there also was a viet sandwich along with it, but it mysteriously disappeared.
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01:00:09 <HackEgo> banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
01:05:02 <HackEgo> cat/Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
01:05:30 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
01:05:44 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/supermarioperator
01:06:18 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/supermarioperator | grep summary:
01:06:19 <HackEgo> summary: <boily> learn supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
01:07:37 <HackEgo> marmite/Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
01:14:58 <oerjan> boily: clearly someone ran banach-tarski in reverse on your sandwich and another one
01:16:18 <Phantom_Hoover> `learn supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom
01:16:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'supermarionation': supermarionation is another name for the mushroom kingdom
01:18:19 <boily> I miss the Thunderbirds...
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01:20:31 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/supermarionation
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03:10:30 <oren> one fifth of ottawa is cheating on their wives
03:10:59 <Sgeo_> Grammar is weird. The statement "X died" makes it sound like X did something to die, when it's most often caused by an external action
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03:39:39 <Wallacoloo> This is brilliant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_prime
03:40:20 <Wallacoloo> I mean, the title alone caught me off guard, but the idea of encoding your data as a mathematically significant prime number in order to defeat censorship is pretty clever.
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03:52:27 <ais523> huh, turns out I've been there before in my (former) role as a Wikipedia admin
03:52:56 <ais523> someone was claiming that the page's protection status was mislabeled (which normally needs an admin to update either the protection status or the labelling so that the two match), but they were mistaken
03:53:06 <pikhq> Gregor: You'll be amused to note that one of my coworkers is a graduate of Waterloo's CS program.
03:53:19 <pikhq> And by "coworker" I mean "team mate"
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04:18:32 <ais523> pikhq: do you have opponents where you work, too?
04:18:40 <pikhq> ais523: Not to my knowledge.
04:21:58 <zzo38> I fixed my userChrome.js first I made it to fix the location bar and now I also added the codes to fix the dialog box to ask you if you want to open or save it too
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08:39:05 <izabera> what's the 5th fibonacci number?
08:39:15 <izabera> where do i start to count?
08:39:55 <b_jonas> izabera: you start to count so that fibonacci(gcd(n, k)) = gcd(fibonacci(n), fibonacci(k)) is true, and fibonacci(0) = 0 and fibonacci(1) = 1.
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08:41:01 <b_jonas> izabera: that's the best reason
08:42:29 <ais523> oh, in that case the 5th fibonacci number is 3
08:42:35 <izabera> http://www.bigprimes.net/archive/fibonacci/1000/ this page counts from 0
08:42:40 <ais523> because 0 → first, 1 → second, 2 → third, and so on
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09:31:33 <mroman> How many fibonacci numbers are primes?
09:32:23 <Taneb> Conjecture: infinitely many
09:34:05 <Taneb> A small infinitely many
09:34:48 <Taneb> mroman, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_prime
09:35:43 <mroman> It's unproven as of now
09:38:29 <mroman> so I can claim that I have a prove that will be relased upon my death
09:38:44 <mroman> but then... it is suddenly lost.
09:38:50 <mroman> but I still get mentioned on wikipedia for it :D
09:38:59 <mroman> that's how you get onto wikipedia
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09:57:55 <myname> last time i checked, 8 was dividable by 2
10:07:21 <Taneb> I am not sure that you are right
10:07:41 <myname> depends on the axioms you give me
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10:46:06 <mroman> and you can't divide by 0
10:51:20 <boily> mrelloman. don't tell me what I can't do.
10:55:13 <Taneb> Clearly one CAN divide by zero!
11:08:38 * boily feels mathematically uneasy
11:14:49 <Taneb> Hurrah for IEEE 754
11:21:08 <fizzie> > [1/0 - 2/0, (1-2)/0] -- hurrah
11:22:11 <Taneb> > decodeFloat (0/0)
11:22:28 <Taneb> > decodeFloat (0*(10/0))
11:23:58 <boily> this is horrible. I'm leaving for saner realities.
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11:24:28 <fizzie> > [0/0, uncurry encodeFloat . decodeFloat $ (0/0)] -- wow
11:24:59 <mroman> much wow. very float. So NaN.
11:27:04 <int-e> > encodeFloat $ decodeFloat (1/0 :: Float)
11:27:05 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Integer’
11:27:05 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely
11:27:17 <int-e> > uncurry encodeFloat $ decodeFloat (1/0 :: Float)
11:27:21 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => Integer -> Int -> a
11:27:34 <mroman> are there unreal floats
11:27:39 <lambdabot> RealFloat a => a -> (Integer, Int)
11:28:06 <Deewiant> mroman: Not in the Prelude at least
11:28:18 <mroman> wth does encodeFloat even do
11:28:37 <int-e> decodeFloat just blindly takes exponent and mantisssa... encodeFloat is supposd to reverse decodeFloat
11:28:39 <Deewiant> The function decodeFloat applied to a real floating-point number returns the significand expressed as an Integer and an appropriately scaled exponent (an Int). If decodeFloat x yields (m,n), then x is equal in value to mbn, where b is the floating-point radix, and furthermore, either m and n are both zero or else bd-1<=m<bd, where d is the value of floatDigits x. encodeFloat performs the inverse of this
11:29:21 <int-e> (the exponent is adjusted for the number of bits in the mantisssa)
11:29:37 <int-e> > decodeFloat (2^53)
11:29:52 <int-e> > decodeFloat (2^52)
11:30:18 * int-e wonders about denormals, hmm
11:30:42 <fizzie> Deewiant: Updated 7 days ago, after about 5 years of silence (modulo one extra Cc).
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11:34:36 <Deewiant> fizzie: Yep, that was amusing.
11:37:27 * int-e wonders whether esolangs.org's ownership has been clarified or whether it'll expire again may next year.
11:39:25 <fizzie> int-e: I kind of half-decided I could take it, and then ask for completely optional donations to cover the costs, but nothing concrete actually happened.
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11:42:36 * int-e could take it too, but isn't too keen on another community contribution paid out of his own pocket (in addition to lambdabot).
11:43:46 <Taneb> How much would it cost?
11:44:28 <fizzie> It kind of makes sense for the person taking care of the DNS services to own the domain, just in case they need to update DNS server addresses.
11:47:47 <fizzie> Gandi's .org price is about 13 EUR/year, and I pay $16/year for another .org I have, and I think you can get cheaper but I don't really know which registrars are the good ones.
11:48:46 <int-e> $10-$15 a year? http://www.domparison.com/domain-name-price-comparison/index.php?ext=org&want=renew
11:48:51 <|f`-`|f> which seems standard fair?
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12:41:28 <oerjan> <ais523> because 0 → first, 1 → second, 2 → third, and so on <-- i once imagined a fictional conlang in which ordinals work that way (basically, you construct them with a preposition meaning "after"), i wonder if any natural languages do
12:42:32 <oerjan> |f`-`|f: the term for "second" would be "after 1"
12:42:41 <Jafet> Ah yes, the first ordinal, second ordinal, third ordinal, ordinal 3, and so on.
12:43:08 <|f`-`|f> would I get fifth, or first
12:43:21 <oerjan> |f`-`|f: go ask /r/fifthworldproblems
12:43:47 <oerjan> my idea makes logical sense, unlike yours
12:44:09 <oerjan> if something is fourth in a row, then there are 3 items before it
12:44:13 <Jafet> Your ordinals are in unary?
12:44:49 <oerjan> Jafet: no. the words 1, 2, 3 etc. aren't ordinals, they are cardinals, there is no recursion hth
12:45:40 <oerjan> it's just that ordinal terms are based on an off-by-one cardinal compared to in english
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12:46:52 <oerjan> but maybe this is too unintuitive for humans, what do i know
12:47:22 <b_jonas> I usually say "of index 0, of index 1, of index 2, of index 3", but I hope we can eventually just get people to say "first, second, twoth, third"
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12:48:24 <b_jonas> or maybe "first, second, twoth, threeth"
12:49:16 <Jafet> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pamai claims that "nomai" is lojban for ordinal 0, but the link contradicts this
12:49:41 <Jafet> It probably has the same status as "zeroth"
12:49:49 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, "nomai" means 0th
12:50:38 <fizzie> fi:"no moi" -> en:"oh, hello"
12:50:42 <b_jonas> but I for one would recommend keeping "moi" as context-sensitive and using longer words when you want to specify zero-based or one-based
12:52:39 <b_jonas> specifically something like "se lidnemei" for zero-based ordinal index
12:52:56 <Jafet> Actually, I believe that chinese use the same words for cardinals and ordinals, so you should be able to use 0-based counting without as much confusion
12:54:20 <Jafet> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/one 一; https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/first 第一
12:55:40 * oerjan likes how romance languages use the definite article to turn comparative into superlative
12:59:32 <oerjan> well latin didn't, afair
12:59:43 <oerjan> it didn't even _have_ articles
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13:00:29 <oerjan> and the latin superlative turned into a kind of emphasizing in italian
13:02:13 <oerjan> the original comparative still remains in a few words, maggiore being one of them
13:03:31 <Phantom_Hoover> i just love how puella is etymologically the diminutive form of puer
13:05:54 <Taneb> I think in early literature both puellus and puera were in use
13:06:18 <oren> as I understand it domain name prices vary much more by the dotword at the end than by registrar
13:07:20 <oren> Chines and japanese cont things using a counter and the word
13:08:29 <oren> for japanese, you could say 0番,1番,2番
13:10:14 <oren> note that here zero is pronounced as chinese "rei" rather than "zero"
13:10:55 <oren> so that would be 0th, 1st, 2nd
13:11:47 <oerjan> yes, but which one means the first in a row?
13:14:21 <oren> For more confusion, oftentimes the first question on a test sheet is labeled '例' which is also pronounced 'rei' but means 'example'.
13:17:16 <oren> because japanese people decided, oh, let's just get rid of these tones, noone will care
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13:50:57 <oerjan> @tell mroman <mroman> are there unreal floats <-- there are complex numbers
13:51:20 <oerjan> > pi :: Complex Double
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14:26:30 <HackEgo> [U+0067 LATIN SMALL LETTER G] [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0064 LATIN SMALL LETTER D] [U+0435 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE] [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0435 CYRILLIC SMALL LETTER IE] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R]
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14:32:12 <b_jonas> argh stupid perl insists that I balance my }})} parenthesis because otherwise it won't figure out what ends where
14:33:50 <Taneb> That is reasonable?
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15:02:25 <oerjan> i think randall munroe messed up his graphics today
15:06:32 <fizzie> I don't know, maybe it's a stylistic choice.
15:06:37 <fizzie> It reminds me of a fax.
15:07:36 <coppro> it was better last night
15:07:58 <fizzie> Yeah, I didn't notice anything weird when I looked at the RSS feed.
15:08:48 <fizzie> (Which I think took me to m.xkcd.com.)
15:13:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PZAB]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43572&oldid=41679 * LegionMammal978 * (-30) fixed spec
15:15:25 <oerjan> ah the forum mentions a typo that has been removed
15:15:37 <oerjan> (it originally said kevin kostner)
15:16:00 <oerjan> as well as some others that haven't.
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17:00:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DcScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43573&oldid=33524 * LegionMammal978 * (+9) this page could use some specs
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21:24:55 <oerjan> that was a short log section...
21:25:54 <HackEgo> αλτγρ+γ/αλτγρ+γ is the national dead pastry of Greece. Goes great with a glass of ouzo!
21:25:55 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞/_̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖́̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̈̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞
21:25:55 <HackEgo> rholypoly/A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic!
21:26:40 <oerjan> i don't think greek words generally contain that.
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21:29:51 <oerjan> what, armadillidiidae actually exist
21:31:13 <shachaf> wisdom is pretty greek today
21:31:16 <HackEgo> wisdom/αλτγρ+γ \ wisdom/cow \ wisdom/rholypoly \ wisdom/catamorphism
21:31:41 <HackEgo> A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees.
21:32:36 <oerjan> hm the armadillidiidae and armadillidae articles contradict each other
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21:35:04 <oerjan> what about the atrapadidae, i wonder
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21:51:52 <oerjan> i thought a 45 min old unanswered stackoverflow question was reasonably safe from having someone else finish their answer before me, but noo...
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22:14:21 <oerjan> shachaf: do you know an example of a Category that's also Functor (modulo no. of parameters), but not an `Arrow`?
22:15:02 <oerjan> if so, http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31618370/is-f-fmap-f-id-always-equivalent-to-arr
22:15:21 * oerjan has been doing too much markdown
22:17:19 <shachaf> How about a Category that's a Profunctor?
22:17:36 <shachaf> I mean, not that I have one.
22:17:45 <lambdabot> (Category p, Profunctor p) => (b -> c) -> p b c
22:17:46 <oerjan> i was looking up profunctors but then remembered they didn't have to be categories
22:17:53 <lambdabot> (Category p, Profunctor p) => (a -> c) -> p a c
22:18:18 <shachaf> Usually profunctors aren't categories.
22:18:30 <shachaf> It's only in the bizarre framework of Haskell that it even makes much sense for one to be the other.
22:19:11 <shachaf> Anyway back in the day when I thought about those things I'd maybe be able to give a useful answer.
22:19:23 <shachaf> I definitely remember this lmap/rmap f id thing coming up somewhere.
22:20:07 <shachaf> Anyway, if your type is both a Category and an Arrow, then \f -> rmap f id = arr, I think.
22:20:10 <oerjan> hm no pumpkins in channel, and edwardk is long idle
22:20:32 <oerjan> shachaf: the case for when you know its an Arrow is well established.
22:20:46 <shachaf> Oh, your link talks about that.
22:21:27 <shachaf> There's probably something which is both Category and Functor but not Arrow.
22:21:46 <shachaf> Why would every Category+Functor thing have products?
22:21:53 <lambdabot> (***) :: a b c -> a b' c' -> a (b,b') (c,c')
22:21:55 <lambdabot> (&&&) :: a b c -> a b c' -> a b (c,c')
22:22:03 <shachaf> That's a few lines more than I hoped for.
22:22:12 <shachaf> Anyway, no reason to expect it.
22:22:37 <shachaf> are you hinting that i'm not being very helpful
22:22:41 <oerjan> still, i find the SO question is missing the nail in the coffin
22:23:01 <oerjan> should i use a more solid object for hinting?
22:23:22 <shachaf> i didn't realize you were equipped with a mapole
22:23:36 <oerjan> no, but i have the saucepan
22:23:59 <oerjan> also i'm sure there must be an example in one of edwardk's package, if i only knew them
22:24:03 <shachaf> my impression was that you don't cook very much
22:24:20 <shachaf> how did you end up with the saucepan?
22:24:47 <oerjan> rule of plot relevance
22:24:51 <shachaf> has it ever been used for sauce?
22:25:07 <oerjan> hardly, ASCII characters don't hold sauce well
22:25:31 * oerjan should check if he has a physical one
22:26:13 <oerjan> not in this house, i think
22:26:28 <shachaf> oerjan: I found out that edwardk doesn't even have data T f a = L a | B (T f (f a)) anywhere.
22:26:49 <shachaf> Though he does have the dual.
22:27:24 <shachaf> ski: Maybe you know the answer to oerjan's question?
22:29:19 <oerjan> ski: aka, is there a Category that is Functor but not Arrow
22:32:43 <oerjan> hm ReifiedFold is an Arrow
22:33:00 * oerjan loaded Control.Lens to see what new Category instances popped up
22:34:09 <shachaf> oerjan: remember the good old days of lens when a type like Indexed was how everything worked?
22:34:31 <shachaf> type Iso a b c d = forall k f. (Isomorphic k, Functor f) => k (c -> f d) (a -> f b)
22:35:10 <shachaf> type IndexedTraversal i a b c d = forall f k. (Indexed i k, Applicative f) => k (c -> f d) (a -> f b)
22:38:07 <oerjan> Op is not, but it's not Functor either
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22:40:08 <oerjan> something tells me Coercion isn't a Functor either
22:40:47 <shachaf> can you just find a category which isn't contravariant in the first argument
22:41:31 <shachaf> and which is covariant in the secone argument, i mean
22:41:36 <shachaf> that's definitely not going to be an Arrow
22:42:02 <oerjan> i don't think that's possible, actually
22:42:16 <shachaf> it's gotta be the products
22:42:21 <oerjan> because from Functor and Category you get, essentially, arr (but not the rest of Arrow)
22:42:43 <oerjan> and that gives you contravariance too
22:45:25 <oerjan> hm Pipes doesn't seem to define any Categories, despite being thorougly based on categories
22:45:54 * oerjan restarts WinGHCi to see how much of this depends on what packages are loaded
22:46:16 <oerjan> ok it does matter for that
22:49:37 <Sgeo_> http://lcamtuf.coredump.cx/soft/ld-expl
22:49:51 <Sgeo_> "World's best exploit: ld-expl. It still works - amaze your friends!"
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22:51:35 <fizzie> Must nitpick about the complete unnecessity of having a named file for the source.
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23:13:59 * ski can never recall what the difference between "profunctor" and "difunctor" is (if there is any) :/
23:18:11 <shachaf> ski: I think they usually mean the same thing.
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23:24:06 <oerjan> so difunctor isn't the same as bifunctor?
23:24:53 * oerjan has been wondering if you could make a polykinded Functor that supported both co- and contravariance
23:25:20 <oerjan> so that all of functor, bifunctor and profunctor would just be special cases
23:25:31 <ski> if you have a small category `C', then `Hom_C : C^op * C >---> Set', so given an object `A' in `C^op', `(B |-> Hom_C (A,B)) : C >---> Set' is a (covariant) functor
23:25:44 <shachaf> oerjan: No, difunctor is as in dinatural transformation, or something along those lines.
23:25:53 <ski> oerjan : i don't know the definition of "profunctor", so i can't tell
23:26:28 <ski> (a "difunctor" from `A' and `B' to `C' is a bifunctor from `A^op' and `B' to `C')
23:26:28 <oerjan> ski: um, my question is about the haskell Category, Functor and Arrow classes, specifically
23:26:30 <shachaf> The Haskell definition we're using is class Profunctor p where dimap :: (x -> a) -> (b -> y) -> p a b -> p x y
23:26:42 <shachaf> Oh, right, we're not even using a Haskell definition.
23:27:06 <oerjan> basically, to find an example of something that cannot be given an Arrow instance despite having the rest
23:27:30 <shachaf> A Category with fmap which doesn't have products.
23:27:42 <ski> oerjan : do you mean "can't be given a (valid) `arr'" definition ? or also the product structure ?
23:27:56 <oerjan> ski: no, arr can be defined from the pieces given
23:28:04 <shachaf> You can make a (valid) `arr' definition from Category and fmap
23:28:28 <ski> oerjan : i was pondering whether that would always satisfy laws (assuming a general CT setting, not just in Haskell)
23:28:30 <shachaf> So products are the whole deal.
23:28:39 <shachaf> Which is surprising given how unproductive this discussion has been.
23:29:12 <shachaf> ski: sometime i should find out about profunctors and chu spaces and things
23:29:23 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
23:29:30 <oerjan> i suppose you _could_ even have the product structure, if you manage to find one of the examples of something that's Category + Applicative but not Arrow.
23:29:44 <oerjan> (but fails the connecting laws)
23:30:11 <oerjan> but i suspect something without product would be easier
23:33:31 * oerjan just favorites the question in case someone else answers
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23:41:11 <shachaf> oerjan: you can't give up now!!
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23:42:49 * oerjan is really good at giving up, you know
23:43:08 <shachaf> what kind of evil overlord does that make you
23:45:32 <oerjan> hm what about a free construction
23:47:35 <oerjan> data Fnord t a b where Fn :: (a -> b) -> Fnord t a b; Base :: (t a b) -> Fnord t a b
23:47:51 <oerjan> oh wait, needs composition
23:48:05 <oerjan> ...but only some kinds
23:49:01 <oerjan> so is there a free category somewhere... well there are thrists
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23:52:01 <hppavilion[1]> Someone needs to implement a tangle-bracket language
23:52:02 <oerjan> hm does ocharles___ know his Categories
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23:55:55 <oerjan> data Fnord t a b where Fn :: (a -> b) -> Fnord t a b; Base :: t a b -> Fnord t a b; Cons :: (c -> d) -> t (b -> c) -> Fnord t a b -> Fnord t a d
23:57:07 <oerjan> it's equivalent to Cons id something (Fn id)
23:57:46 <shachaf> oerjan: that's a syntax error, a type name needs to start with a capital letter hth
23:57:52 <shachaf> you can't just write the type variables
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23:58:34 * oerjan hits shachaf with the saucepan ===\__/
23:58:53 <fungot> shachaf: but if you're dealing with unfamiliar territory, start small: test at the end
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00:00:55 <oerjan> instance Functor (Fnord t a) where fmap f (Fn g) = Fn (f . g); fmap f (Cons g b fn) = Cons (f . g) b fn
00:02:49 -!- Herbalist has left.
00:03:27 <oerjan> instance Category (Fnord t) where id = Fn id; Fn f . x = fmap f x; Cons f b fn . x = Cons f b (fn . x)
00:05:46 <oerjan> good, compiled on first try
00:06:58 <oerjan> shachaf: now we just need to show it has no products twh
00:07:17 <shachaf> when did i get involved in this tdnh
00:07:17 <oerjan> ok, and maybe that it actually satisfies the laws
00:07:37 <oerjan> oh wait i forgot the Category one
00:09:27 <oerjan> shachaf: well i just figured that free constructions are ideal for making something that satisfies no more laws than necessary
00:10:34 * oerjan ponders renaming Fnord to something better
00:10:49 <shachaf> oerjan: ok, now explain free topological spaces twh
00:11:53 <oren> idea: a language that brings back line numbers
00:11:58 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't remember what those are, or if they even exist
00:12:08 <oerjan> oren: have you looked at FORTE
00:12:23 <shachaf> oerjan: a free topological space on a set is just the discrete space with that set as points
00:12:35 <oerjan> i think ais523 basically used up line number esolangs with that one
00:12:44 <oerjan> or wait there's also SMETANA
00:12:46 <shachaf> (the cofree topological space is indiscrete)
00:13:08 <oerjan> well we have ways to make it stop talking
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00:14:26 <Taneb> oren, check out Whenever
00:15:01 <oerjan> hm i gave the t (now renamed base) the wrong kind
00:15:34 <oerjan> fortunately it's only used wrongly in one spot
00:16:25 <oerjan> Taneb: looks like we have a lot of line number languages, then
00:16:39 <Taneb> 3 is not that many
00:16:51 <Taneb> However I will admit the category is looking rather crowded
00:18:28 <oren> I was thinking like this: you have math, and computed goto, and nothing else tpo work with
00:19:31 <oren> so a statement is like
00:19:56 <oren> 140 goto X*10+120
00:21:03 <oerjan> the Functor laws are obvious from the code, anyway
00:21:05 <oren> and there is no other types of stements (maybe data deifnitions for extra fortranity??)
00:21:06 * ski . o O ( "The intrinsic topology of a Martin-Löf universe" by Martín H. Escardó in 2012-03 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/> (14),"The universe is indiscrete" by Martín Escardó,Thomas Streicher in 2013-11-16 at <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/universe-indiscrete.pdf> )
00:21:28 <Taneb> oren, I presume you also have some arithmetic
00:21:34 <shachaf> The universe is surely connected.
00:21:43 <Taneb> oren, do we have IO (even memory-mapped?)
00:21:55 <shachaf> https://plus.google.com/+ShachafBenKiki/posts/8Vkzum3WL7G
00:21:58 <Taneb> oren, can we change the labels
00:22:00 <oren> Yeah maybe something like PRINT X
00:22:13 <shachaf> ski: this effective topos thing seems to be pretty effective
00:22:22 <oren> Or READ X," ",Y
00:22:41 <oren> I'll make a preliminary spec
00:22:47 <Taneb> I'm gonna head to bed
00:24:46 <ski> shachaf : mhm ?
00:25:07 <shachaf> i guess i should learn about it
00:26:38 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], that language has no flow control!
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00:36:59 <oerjan> the Category laws for id also clearly hold
00:39:18 <oerjan> Cons f b fn = Cond f b id . fn
00:45:14 <oerjan> = (Fn f . Cond id b id) . fn
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00:54:32 * oerjan convinces himself the Category laws hold
01:03:41 <hppavilion[1]> I've decided that, based on Haifu, I'm going to create a whole assortment of esolangs based on various philosophies
01:04:06 <hppavilion[1]> As a project to "Improve understanding between cultures using programming"
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01:09:33 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/ideaforlanguage.htm
01:10:34 <oren> 10 PRINT "HELLO WORLD",CHR(10)
01:11:23 <oren> 20 READ CHR(N),CHR(A),CHR(M),CHR(E)
01:12:03 <oren> 40 PRINT "HI, ",CHR(N),CHR(A),CHR(M),CHR(E)
01:12:22 <oren> 50 PRINT CHR(10)
01:15:20 <mauris_> mmm, basic with only GOTO EXPR
01:16:37 <mauris_> SGN() makes it really easy to just implement a boring conditional GOTO though
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01:23:14 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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01:24:22 <zzo38> It is different from BASIC clearly by such example, as normally in BASIC the READ command is for reading DATA command inside of the program, and print is automatically to next line unless you put a semicolon, and a comma in a PRINT command will make tabulation instead.
01:24:31 <lambdabot> CYQB 250100Z 08012KT 050V110 15SM FEW012 SCT050 BKN095 15/12 A3001 RMK SC2SC2AC3 SLP162
01:24:36 <lambdabot> ENVA 250050Z VRB02KT 9999 VCSH SCT036 NKN049 11/09 Q1010 RMK WIND 670FT VRB01KT
01:24:58 <zzo38> In such program will "NEXTCARD" mean that it only reads the first four characters from the first card, or what?
01:25:10 <boily> kørjanbanwa. the weather here is norwegianish.
01:25:21 <oren> はい元気です！ これを見てて：http://www.orenwatson.be/ideaforlanguage.htm
01:26:00 <oren> NEXTCARD skips past the next newline character in input stream
01:28:22 <Kendrian> How would using functions on the variables in N READ X, Y, ... look?
01:30:22 <oren> 10 READ CHR(X),HEX(Y),CHR(Z) can read "XFF00FFQ" as X='X', Y=0xFF00FF Z='Q'
01:31:33 <oren> if two number-reading ones are in a row like READ X,Y a space is allowed in betweeen
01:31:46 <oren> so READ X,Y can read "10 20"
01:31:53 <zzo38> It can make sense, if a function is defined as an input pattern (as well as an output pattern and/or a normal function)
01:32:08 <Kendrian> Might need a precedence rule for parsing that; i.e., what if I meant X to be "XFF" and Y is 0x00FF
01:32:34 <Kendrian> Just separating them with spaces sounds like the way to go.
01:33:24 <oren> spaces are skipped between HEX() OCT() and regular reads but not between CHR() and ony others
01:33:57 <oren> I'll need to document this
01:34:50 <Kendrian> I had a slow couple of days at work and started reading up on some of the esolangs. Implementing them is kind of fun, yours wouldn't be real hard
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01:58:56 <oren> people should not write the word dubstep as ワコ乃ちナモア
02:00:39 <oren> I spent 3 minutes staring at it and looking it up in dictionaries before I figured it out
02:01:29 <oren> well its more like ワ凵乃ちナモア
02:01:40 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxYeBrQ6W_o
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02:50:00 <oren> 0h shit! ▒☺ ggg
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03:39:54 <zzo38> Why doesn't the bell work in XTerm(297)?
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05:12:22 <oren> right, it's 1 am, time to write some CGI in C!
05:18:10 <HackEgo> U+000D <control> \ UTF-8: 0d UTF-16BE: 000d Decimal: \
05:20:23 <Jafet> What does irc use \r for?
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06:56:59 * ski stares at hppavilion[1]
06:57:22 * hppavilion[1] does something horribly perverse, thus scarring ski for life
06:57:55 * ski idly wonders what the converse of perverse is
06:58:39 <hppavilion[1]> The inverse is something pure and unperverse. Like anything a kitten does
06:58:50 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bbs.htm
07:00:01 <oren> my program puts the C back in CGI
07:04:05 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bbssendrecv.asc
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08:12:07 <fowl> Doesn't work on my mobile cellphone
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12:54:34 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> The inverse is something pure and unperverse. Like anything a kitten does <-- um, don't look up "kitten catching mice" hth
12:55:08 * oerjan <-- destroying innocence 1 step at a time
12:55:43 <izabera> that's evil, it can't be a single step
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12:56:50 * oerjan suddenly reminded of the kitten in Narbonic
12:58:05 <oerjan> izabera: the second evil part is where i didn't watch the whole video myself hth
12:58:58 <izabera> so you're a mathematician aren't you
12:59:31 <oerjan> somewhat, you could call it "mostly retired"
12:59:54 <izabera> are you enough of a mathematician to be able to divide two numbers?!
13:00:09 <oerjan> assuming the second one isn't 0, possibly
13:00:33 <izabera> what if the divisor is > 1234 bits long?
13:00:35 * oerjan does know long division
13:00:52 <oerjan> then i have my trusty ghci in another window.
13:01:18 <izabera> are you enough of a mathematician to be able to teach me how to divide two numbers?!
13:01:29 * izabera needs an algorithm for long division
13:02:18 <oerjan> because it's easier in binary if you have a computer
13:02:40 <izabera> my computer can divide numbers up to 2 ** 63 -1
13:03:02 <oerjan> ok so your problem is really with bignums
13:03:25 <oerjan> have you considered the gmp library?
13:03:45 <izabera> yep but that's not reinventing the wheel so i discarded it
13:04:44 <izabera> also my language has basically no way to interact with gmp
13:05:17 <oerjan> step 1 is to implement addition/subtraction, bit shifting and comparison so you have the pieces for the algorithm
13:05:35 <izabera> addition/subtraction: done
13:06:03 <izabera> ò_ò https://github.com/izabera/bashmathlib
13:06:47 <izabera> there's a repl, try it \o/
13:06:55 <oerjan> left shift the divisor until its leftmost bit is in the same spot as the leftmost bit of the dividend.
13:07:14 <izabera> i'm so glad that myndzi didn't add a penis
13:07:16 <oerjan> keep track of how much you shifted
13:07:36 <izabera> what if i'm doing all my calculations in base 10?
13:07:49 <oerjan> then it becomes much more complicated
13:08:11 <oerjan> in that case, calculate multiples 1..9 of the divisor.
13:08:49 <oerjan> shift left until they have the same leftmost digit spot
13:09:35 <oerjan> let the current remainder = the dividend
13:10:09 <oerjan> find which bracket of shifted divisor multiples the current remainder is in
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13:10:35 <oerjan> (it's possible that it's 0-1, but only on the first step. if so, shift the divisor once right.)
13:11:02 <oerjan> btw the bracket is inclusive to the left and exclusive to the right
13:11:23 <oerjan> the lower bracket gives you the first digit of the quotient
13:11:49 <oerjan> now subtract the corresponding shifted multiple from the current remainder
13:11:49 <izabera> i don't really have to compute all of the 1..9 multiples right?
13:12:08 <oerjan> um that's why do in practice when i have to do it by hand.
13:12:27 <izabera> well but i need at most all of them
13:12:56 <izabera> i can start with 1, then test if it's > number, else test with 2, else 3...
13:13:14 <oerjan> izabera: well the thing is you'll be doing this _several_ times.
13:13:41 <izabera> thank you for pointing it out
13:14:43 <oerjan> although you _could_ avoid the multiplying by using a bit more subtracting, hm...
13:15:26 <oerjan> let's try that. it might not be that much worse (unless you're actually binary searching the digits, which is probably _really_ complicated)
13:16:19 <oerjan> so, don't calculate the multiples. compare the shifted divisor to the remainder. if the divisor is smaller, subtract it, and increment the result variable.
13:16:49 <izabera> i already have the multiplication
13:17:38 <oerjan> it's equivalent, anyway
13:18:01 <izabera> yes but i want the division to go up to any arbitrary precision...
13:18:39 <oerjan> izabera: you're not using multiples _larger_ than 9, anyway ... for that you shift instead.
13:19:07 <izabera> sorry i may be missing something obvious again
13:20:02 <oerjan> anyway, if the divisor is greater instead, then shift it rightwards, and also shift the result variable leftwards by the same amount.
13:21:44 <oerjan> eventually, you shift the divisor all the way back to where it was. when it then becomes greater, either stop (if you are doing integer division), or insert a decimal point.
13:22:43 <oerjan> if you insert a decimal point, hm, now i think instead of shifting the divisor rightwards you should shift the remainder leftward.
13:23:24 <oerjan> those are basically equivalent, since only the relative position matters.
13:23:52 <oerjan> i hope you're testing this :P
13:41:50 <Jafet> Now tempted to write a karatsuba division in bash
13:42:58 <izabera> my version computes 2^1000 in 1.9s
13:50:10 <Jafet> The last time I implemented bignums, I just went with newton division. It worked well.
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13:59:00 <oerjan> right, long division is obviously not the fanciest, most efficient method.
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14:03:57 <Jafet> That's why I didn't implement it at all.
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14:15:00 <Jafet> > pi ** pi :: CReal
14:15:02 <lambdabot> 36.4621596072079117709908260226921236663655
14:15:11 <lambdabot> Source not found. Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.
14:16:04 <boily> int-e: int-ello. since when has lambdie included creative replies like that?
14:16:18 <lambdabot> x ^^ n = if n >= 0 then x^n else recip (x^(negate n))
14:16:19 <boily> hellørjan, Jafellot.
14:17:32 <lambdabot> where g x n | even n = g (x*x) (n `quot` 2)
14:17:36 <lambdabot> _ ^ _ = error "Prelude.^: negative exponent"
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14:19:11 <Jafet> boillehy. Looks like lambdabot's got my number.
14:19:56 <boily> you have broccoli brains?
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14:22:37 <Jafet> The doctor says it's romanesco. Children loathe and fear it.
14:23:00 <oerjan> helloily. since always hth
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14:23:52 * oerjan is amused that other people are still keeping the descendant of his Unlambda.hs working
14:24:10 <oerjan> and also, i'm wondering what that Int is for...
14:25:20 <oerjan> Jafet: (**) is an actual method, so no common impl.
14:27:18 <int-e> boily: e6291f79 (Don Stewart 2007-01-06 07:07:31 +0000 136) "Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.",
14:27:21 <Jafet> Well, cala me brese, I didn't notice that.
14:29:04 <oerjan> Jafet: is that also a brassica pun, i'm not sure i can keep up with those
14:30:09 <int-e> in fact, 876e6076 (Don Stewart 2006-12-31 10:13:48 +0000 174) "Listen, broccoli brains, I don't have time to listen to this trash.",
14:30:35 <int-e> but that was specific to @quote; e6291f79 made the insults generally available in lambdabots' Lib.Util :P
14:31:26 <int-e> btw is there some trick to make git annotate *not* check whether a file exists first? This is rather annoying for archeology tasks
14:31:47 <Jafet> Looks like the default implementation of x**y is just exp (y ln x)
14:31:58 <int-e> ah. need to use --
14:33:39 <boily> @src thatThingThatDoesntExist
14:33:39 <lambdabot> Source not found. Have you considered trying to match wits with a rutabaga?
14:36:46 <int-e> oh: there's this comment above the list of insults: -- Amusing insults from OpenBSD sudo
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14:38:58 <oerjan> ok the Int is for bounding no. of steps, it seems
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14:43:07 <oerjan> Taneb: what's so scary
14:43:21 <Taneb> Scrollback I think
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16:03:13 <oren> OK, now it's finally working
16:03:23 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/bbs.htm
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19:13:59 <boily> Sir Fungellot does not fnord, mraman fnards.
19:14:37 <Taneb> fizzie, how does fungot do its network IO?
19:14:38 <fungot> Taneb: should it do when it is the best house music?. furthermore, if s/ he? or was that fashionable exageration?" i think i'd expect slow-fast-value in a lisp compiler, traditionally ( and still have the fields side-a and side-b
19:15:45 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
19:29:40 <zzo38> "Fnard" is the new kind of "fnord".
19:30:51 <zzo38> Is that what it is?
19:31:46 <Taneb> zzo38, which esolang would you recommend for writing a Gopher server in?
19:33:18 <shachaf> Isn't zzo38's Gopher server written in BASIC or something?
19:33:26 <shachaf> No reason to use an esolang.
19:33:27 <zzo38> Taneb: I don't know yet
19:33:46 <zzo38> shachaf: I did use BASIC at first but now I will write the new one in C instead I think
19:34:53 <zzo38> If you do want to use a esolang, use whatever one you prefer to do, preferably one that you can do file access
19:35:34 <Taneb> File access and network IO
19:35:40 <Taneb> I do not know of any that can do either
19:35:52 <Taneb> Apart from Befunge-98, depending on the fingerprints the interpreter has
19:36:25 <zzo38> If you can't do network function then you could still use inetd for that though
19:37:07 <Taneb> I guess that is true
19:38:25 <fizzie> Taneb: There's a Funge-98 fingerprint for POSIX sockets.
19:38:38 <fizzie> Taneb: Well, a subset of POSIX sockets. It's IPv4-only, for one thing. And doesn't do DNS lookups.
19:38:40 <Taneb> fizzie, where is that documented?
19:38:55 <fizzie> Taneb: http://www.rcfunge98.com/rcsfingers.html#SOCK
19:39:07 <zzo38> Do make a gopher server you shouldn't need to do DNS lookups
19:39:24 <fizzie> Fun fact: from what I recall, the UNIX domain socket address family that's "nominally supported" is impossible to use.
19:41:18 <fizzie> "ct=1 and pf=1 are a broken spec and should not be implemented. Usage of either of these should reflect." There used to be more about them, but they couldn't be done.
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19:42:43 <Taneb> Thank you fizzie and zzo38
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19:52:58 <fizzie> Vorpal was drafting a "NSCK" that would've been more getaddrinfo-ish and capable of writing IP version agnostic Funge code.
19:53:34 <ais523> zzo38: you need DNS lookups to connect to gopher sites if you know the domain name but not the URL
19:53:43 <ais523> which is the normal situation
19:57:07 <zzo38> Yes, if you are making a client
19:57:44 <zzo38> If you are making a server, you would just configure the domain name.
20:01:57 <ais523> oh yes, the server doesn't need a DNS
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20:40:41 <oren> variable names are base64-encoded 64 bit integers
20:42:08 <oren> hmm maybe that's dumb
20:42:24 <oren> what is a prime close to 2^64
20:42:40 <oren> er and below it
20:43:37 <oren> variable: I want to have variables in my program without storing the names as strings
20:44:36 <zzo38> What is reasonable setting for xinetd.conf (for instances, per_source, cps, max_load)?
20:45:33 <oren> ooh! https://primes.utm.edu/lists/2small/0bit.html
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20:47:32 <variable> oren: curious, why do you need them?
20:58:06 <oren> I want implement http://www.orenwatson.be/ideaforlanguage.htm
20:58:59 <oren> and I'mma make to code for variables more genral so I can reuse it later
21:00:35 <oren> There are a few other ideas for languages I want to try. a unified variable-sotrage solution would be useful
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21:33:04 <zzo38> Add the stable unofficial opcodes too into 6502 codes table (mark them with asterisk or lowercase to tell the differences)
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21:57:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * 0x29afucks * New user account
21:58:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cellbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43574&oldid=40986 * 0x29afucks * (-3) NIGGA!!!!!!!!!!!
21:58:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * 0x29afucks * moved [[Cellbrain]] to [[Lolwut u bogan cunt]]
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22:11:15 <ski> zzo38 : what are you doing ?
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22:13:15 <zzo38> ski: What do you think I am doing?
22:14:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antonio Maschio]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43577&oldid=8603 * 0x29afucks * (-300) Replaced content with "anus"
22:15:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43578&oldid=18245 * 0x29afucks * (-1777) Replaced content with "Surprise Buttsecks!"
22:15:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43579&oldid=30423 * 0x29afucks * (-3665) Replaced content with "Buttsecks"
22:15:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alisj]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43580&oldid=40958 * 0x29afucks * (-165) Replaced content with "F7U12"
22:15:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:0x29afucks]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages
22:17:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lolwut u bogan cunt]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43581&oldid=43575 * Oerjan * (+3) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0x29afucks|0x29afucks]] ([[User talk:0x29afucks|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Oerjan|Oerjan]]
22:17:44 <zzo38> I am writing a gopher server in C right now
22:18:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:0x29afucks]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43582 * 0x29afucks * (+42) Created page with "'''CC0!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!''' fken nuub"
22:18:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Oerjan * moved [[Lolwut u bogan cunt]] to [[Cellbrain]] over redirect: Vandalism
22:19:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Ais523 * deleted "[[User talk:0x29afucks]]": Vandalism
22:19:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Antonio Maschio]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43584&oldid=43577 * Oerjan * (+300) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0x29afucks|0x29afucks]] ([[User talk:0x29afucks|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Safalra|Safalra]]
22:19:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[You are Reading the Name of this Esolang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43585&oldid=43578 * Oerjan * (+1777) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0x29afucks|0x29afucks]] ([[User talk:0x29afucks|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:92.233.174.117|92.233.174.117]]
22:19:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck/w/index.php?title=Talk:Brainfuck/index.php]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43586&oldid=43579 * Oerjan * (+3665) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0x29afucks|0x29afucks]] ([[User talk:0x29afucks|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Ehird|Ehird]]
22:20:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alisj]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43587&oldid=43580 * Oerjan * (+165) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/0x29afucks|0x29afucks]] ([[User talk:0x29afucks|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Oerjan|Oerjan]]
22:21:28 <ais523> huh, is that Esolang's first actual vandal?
22:21:50 <ais523> oerjan and I did get everything between us, just checked to make sure
22:24:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] reblock * Oerjan * changed block settings for [[User:0x29afucks]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled, email disabled, cannot edit own talk page): Inserting nonsense/gibberish into pages, including own talk page
22:24:46 <oerjan> i figure if you spam your own talk page, you lose the block exception for it.
22:25:30 <ais523> oerjan: that is a rule, although I'd typically prefer to wait for the second time
22:32:10 <oerjan> since when did that word have an elided s
22:32:33 <ski> zzo38 : i'm not sure. perhaps something relates to an emulator ?
22:36:08 <zzo38> ski: I do not quite understand you should try to be more specific please
22:36:52 <ski> you were making a remark about 6502 unofficial opcodes
22:38:41 <zzo38> Yes, oren's list of 6502 opcodes doesn't include the unofficial opcodes. The stable ones are valid in a NMOS-only program, so they can be used with any VM with the 6502 instruction set that specifies NMOS.
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22:45:59 <ski> hm, i didn't see any list of 6502 (linked or not) in here ..
22:46:33 <ski> .. backlog shows <http://www.orenwatson.be/z80machinecode.htm>, and <http://www.orenwatson.be/6502machinecode.htm> seems to work. presuming you meant the latter
22:58:21 <oren> http://www.orenwatson.be/6502machinecode.htm
22:59:35 <oren> I've opted to represent the IGN (read byte and ignore) instructions as NOP with an eddressing mode
23:00:24 <zzo38> OK, but, the plain version is not updated yet
23:00:32 <coppro> oren: what is the point of that instruction? to interface with hardware?
23:01:00 <oren> yeah some memory-mapped stuff can make reads do things
23:01:30 <oren> for example advance to the next button on the NES controller
23:01:41 <zzo38> Yes that is one thing it can do
23:01:47 <coppro> I want someone to implement MMIX in hardware
23:01:53 <zzo38> coppro: Yes I do too
23:02:05 <zzo38> So that you can run MMIX program in hardware
23:02:32 <zzo38> Other purpose of IGN kind of stuff can be for timing purposes, or with a mapper I invented it can also be used for bankswitching
23:03:18 <zzo38> (Bankswitching registers are mapped at $1xxx and mirrored at $3xxx and $5xxx and $7xxx; furthermore the cartridge hardware doesn't care if the access is read or write, either way works)
23:05:59 <zzo38> (I know $1xxx overlaps RAM; it is done like that on purpose)
23:10:02 * ski str it being called "strobe" on Amiga
23:13:17 <zzo38> I don't know much about Amiga programming
23:22:18 <oren> the .asc is now updated
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23:26:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43588&oldid=43013 * Nooodl * (-37) /* IRP */ execution isn't part of the program
23:29:16 <ski> zzo38 : hm, <http://amigadev.elowar.com/read/ADCD_2.1/Hardware_Manual_guide/node0060.html> says "S Strobe (write address with no register bits). Writing the register causes the effect."
23:29:28 <ski> so apparently not on read
23:29:39 <ais523> wow we have a lot of truth-machines
23:30:37 <Taneb> ski, http://esolangs.org/wiki/Truth-machine
23:30:59 <zzo38> On NES/Famicom you select the next button by read, but to select the next row/column of the keyboard you need to write.
23:34:03 <mauris> i should write some more of them
23:34:32 <ais523> probably we have more truth-machines than Deadfish interps?
23:36:30 <zzo38> Then, you should count
23:36:36 <ais523> otherwise I'd know for sure (barring the wiki being edited while I was counting)
23:36:39 <ski> Taneb : do you know why it's called "truth-machine" ?
23:37:00 <Taneb> You'd have to ask Keymake
23:37:20 <ski> it sounds to me like `Bool -> Sierpinski'
23:38:06 <ski> (`Bool' being a boolean type, `Sierpinski' being the type of "observably-true ; unobservably-false")
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23:39:06 <ais523> Sierpinski is called "void" in many languages
23:39:19 <ais523> presumably it'd only be different in languages like Agda, where it'd be some sort of monad
23:39:33 <ais523> or, well, "unit" is more common than "void" I guess
23:40:18 <zzo38> For functions that might not halt, then yes it is like the "void" in C and that stuff.
23:40:31 <mauris> i'm going to write one in this beautiful language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Funciton
23:41:29 <ski> well, afaiui, in a language where computations are terminating (or productive, in case of codata), using `Sierpinski' as result type would be an explicit license for that computation to be semi-decidable
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23:41:39 <mauris> (it's a damn shame that brainfuck is featured and not this)
23:42:09 <ais523> ski: it's basically MaybeNonterminating ()
23:42:39 <ais523> myname: we need a new featured article
23:42:42 <mauris> i was just thinking; is there something like MaybeNonterminating
23:42:45 <ais523> is the article itself at featured article standard?
23:43:01 <ais523> mauris: most total languages have it as a monad, probably with a wieldier name
23:43:17 <myname> it has lots of information, many examples
23:43:40 <ais523> it's on the shortlist already, too
23:43:43 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Esolang:Featured_languages/Candidates
23:44:00 <ais523> sorry I've been delinquent with featured language updating duties
23:44:08 <ais523> I'm too lazy to write a main page intro for it right now though
23:44:09 <ski> `a -> Bool' is the type of detachable subsets of `a'. `a -> Sierpinski' is the type of semi-decidable subsets of `a'. and `a -> Prop' is the type of arbitrary subsets of `a' (where you can't even attempt to check that something is an element, instead you can only (sometimes) manage to prove it is an element (or not), assuming you know something more about the subset and the element)
23:44:11 <zzo38> The "MaybeNonterminating" there is something like that in Gentzen esolang I suppose, the loop operator is, I think?
23:44:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: a: not found
23:45:11 <HackEgo> Thanks, HackEgo. ThackEgo.
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23:46:49 <boily> quinthellôpia, hellôerjan!
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23:49:36 <zzo38> Yes there is more truth-machine there is 107 but only 78 of Deadfish
23:50:37 <ais523> both those numbers are much higher than I expected
23:50:41 <ais523> worryingly higher, in fact
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23:51:41 <ais523> how much activity's going in to this sort of thing
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23:52:42 <ais523> I guess I'm worried that Deadfish caught on so much
23:53:14 <mauris> i'm willing to bet over half of them are:
23:53:34 <mauris> "oh i made a language, let's add it to (this/these) list(s)"
23:53:38 <oerjan> ais523: they both caught on because they're about the simplest programs to write in any language
23:53:46 <oerjan> (that can do it at all)
23:54:16 <oerjan> while also being sillier than the usual boring "Hello, world!" and stuff
23:54:20 <ais523> I still like the program which prints out a string of length 1, then a string of length 2, then a string of length 3, and so on, with the pattern continuing indefinitely
23:54:36 <ais523> that doesn't prove TCness, but it does make it seem a lot more likely
23:54:48 <oerjan> ais523: yeah that was the first loop i wrote in ///
23:55:00 <ais523> right, I knew someone else had done one
23:55:00 <myname> map (map take [1..]) $ repeat 1
23:55:09 <ais523> it's the first nonrepeating program I wrote in Black
23:55:19 <ais523> (which still isn't known TC, but I strongly suspect it is)
23:55:27 <ais523> > map (map take [1..]) $ repeat 1
23:55:28 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Integer -> b’
23:55:28 <lambdabot> Possible cause: ‘map’ is applied to too many arguments
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23:55:40 <ais523> huh, I was expecting that to work
23:55:52 <mauris> > [replicate n '*' | n <- [1..]]
23:55:54 <lambdabot> ["*","**","***","****","*****","******","*******","********","*********","**...
23:55:56 <coppro> > map (map $ take [1..]) $ repeat 1
23:55:57 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Int’ with actual type ‘[Integer]’
23:55:57 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘take’, namely ‘[1 .. ]’
23:55:57 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘($)’, namely ‘take [1 .. ]’
23:56:25 <ais523> > map (map $ flip take [1..]) $ repeat 1
23:56:26 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Num [Int]) arising from the literal ‘1’
23:56:27 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: (Enum a, Num a) => [[[a]]]
23:56:37 <ais523> we're getting closer! :-P
23:56:44 <mauris> > map ($ repeat 1) (map take [1..])
23:56:45 <lambdabot> <no location info>: can't find file: L.hs
23:56:53 <mauris> > map ($ repeat 1) (map take [1..])
23:56:56 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
23:57:01 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
23:57:11 <ais523> coppro: that's idris-bot syntax
23:57:42 <ais523> I thought :t worked too but wasn't sure
23:58:05 <coppro> zipWith (.) (map take [1..]) $ repeat 1
23:58:13 <oerjan> ais523: oh and unlambda has the famous c-using one
23:58:13 <coppro> > zipWith ($) (map take [1..]) $ repeat 1
23:58:14 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M725027592012689207429299’
23:58:15 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
23:58:30 <ais523> oerjan: not famous enough for me to remember what it is (but famous enough for me to have a vague memory that it exists)
23:58:33 <mauris> > zipWith ($) (map take [1..]) $ repeat (repeat 1)
23:58:35 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
23:59:00 <ais523> now I'm trying to do it in INTERCAL in my head
23:59:02 <oerjan> @unlambda ``. `cd`.*`cd
23:59:02 <lambdabot> * ** *** **** ***** ****** ******* ******** ********* ********** *********...
23:59:19 <ais523> oerjan: oh wow, that looks like a torture test for an Unlambda interp :-)
23:59:38 <ais523> bleh, I shouldn't try to do INTERCAL in my head :-(
23:59:40 <mauris> > [[1..l]>>1|l<-[1..]]
23:59:41 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M375440728806938459629340’
23:59:41 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘b0’ is ambiguous
23:59:50 <oerjan> ais523: the d's are actually redundant, they're only used in spots where they're equivalent to i
00:00:31 <mauris> > [[1..l]>>[1]|l<-[1..]]
00:00:35 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
00:02:21 <mauris> i guess that isn't actually shorter than map(`replicate`1)[1..] :(
00:02:40 <mauris> but it's cute and monad-y
00:03:38 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
00:05:22 <mauris> > fix$([1]:).(map(1:))
00:05:23 <lambdabot> [[1],[1,1],[1,1,1],[1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,1,1,1,1,1],[1,1,...
00:06:04 <mauris> fix f = f (f (f (f (f ...))))
00:06:35 <oerjan> except that with the right amount of laziness, it's constant space
00:06:59 <oerjan> because the inner fix f is the same thunk as the whole
00:09:13 <mauris> wow that will line up for me but like, nobody else, rip
00:09:15 <oerjan> i remember someone asking (SO or reddit) why it wasn't the latter
00:09:41 <mauris> oh, are there subtle, _|_-related differences
00:09:57 <oerjan> no, it's probably entirely equivalent semantically
00:10:27 <oerjan> what i'm wondering now is why it isn't iterate f x = go x where go x = x : go (f x)
00:10:41 <oerjan> that's like the standard thing
00:10:47 <oerjan> let me check actual ghc source
00:12:13 <oerjan> hm nope ghc is the same but it has a build rule
00:13:14 <mauris> it bothers me that it would be at all better, for whatever reason, to define it that way :(
00:13:28 <oerjan> myname: the go prevents the f from being passed as a parameter again
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00:13:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure if it _actually_ matters nowadays, but it's traditional
00:14:07 <oerjan> presumably it makes the recursion slightly more efficient
00:15:10 <oerjan> anyway, the build rule for list fusion is more important
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00:15:37 <oerjan> means the list might not be allocated at all if consumed efficiently
00:15:38 <zzo38> How can I make virtual spaces enabled in vi only when the ^V command is used? (I didn't even know about that command before yesterday when I pushed it by accident, but it seem like that command would be useful to have a virtual space mode)
00:16:24 <oren> #include "stdio.h"
00:16:24 <oren> void rep(char *s){while(*s)fputs(s+1,stdout),--*s;putchar(10);}
00:16:24 <oren> void rrp(char *s){while(*s)s[1]=*s,rep(s+1),--*s;}
00:16:46 <oren> int main(){rrp("\003 *");}
00:17:15 <zzo38> O, there is a "virtualedit" option
00:17:34 <myname> zzo38: what do they do?
00:18:31 <oerjan> ^V is rectangular block selection
00:19:06 <oerjan> except that in windows it's ^Q instead, because ^V is paste
00:20:42 <oerjan> and yes, virtualedit is nice, not just for ^V commands but also for some tabular stuff
00:21:12 <oerjan> but i usually only enable it when i want it
00:21:39 <oerjan> since it makes it harder to go to the _actual_ end of line
00:22:30 <zzo38> You can write :set ve=block for only in block selection mode
00:22:40 <zzo38> Which is what I put in
00:24:17 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
00:30:20 <lambdabot> CYQB 260000Z 08007KT 20SM FEW055 FEW140 BKN280 20/14 A2995 RMK SC2AC1CI4 AC TR SLP141 DENSITY ALT 800FT
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01:43:07 <mauris> this seriously bothers me about ruby: https://bpaste.net/show/76f16b0a9fe8
01:43:38 <mauris> you seriously have to write a loop, or use a really ugly ".inject{}" syntax, to sum some values
01:44:21 <mauris> which wouldn't be so bad except, http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.2/Array.html#M000413 llllook at all of this nonsense it DOES ship with
01:46:20 <mauris> oh all that on top of http://ruby-doc.org/core-2.2.2/Enumerable.html of course
01:47:31 <mauris> oh, it seems you can write [3, 4, 5].reduce(0, :+) now which is a bit better
02:10:14 <oren> ruby is not a very well designed language
02:11:43 <oren> python is better. perl is worse designed but is more mature and has a better collection of libraries
02:13:06 <shachaf> mauris: What's wrong with inject?
02:13:28 <shachaf> "Doesn't have a built-in sum method" is pretty silly, of all the complaints you could make about Ruby.
02:13:37 <mauris> nothing. there's nothing wrong with a for loop either!
02:14:09 <shachaf> Probably slightly nicer than .inject(0, :+)
02:14:19 <fowl> (1..10).select &:even?
02:14:29 <mauris> just saying, if #repeated_permutation exists, you would really expect #sum to exist as well!
02:15:39 <mauris> rubyists both (a) clearly like "big" interfaces that provide everything you need including the #kitchen_sink, and (b) take sums of things often, because everyone does that
02:16:04 <mauris> heck, rails even monkey patches it into Enumerable or something bafflingly Ruby-ish like that??
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02:42:07 <oren> Wat the hell do u mean I can't use unary plus on a pointer?!?!
02:43:34 <oren> oh, I get it. I forgot one of the plusses in my *++s
02:45:03 <ais523> wait, you can't use unary plus on a pointer?
02:45:21 <ais523> congrats on making a no-op that sometimes doesn't work, C standard designers ;-)
02:45:23 <oren> apparently not.
02:46:01 <oren> unary plus should really mean abs()
02:46:13 <ais523> then unary minus should be -abs()
02:46:51 <oren> no that's unary -+
02:47:50 <oren> or maybe +- jsut to confuse people
02:48:21 <oren> i mean - -x already menas different from --x
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02:54:34 <oren> you can write j++ as ~-(j=-~j)
02:58:31 <pikhq> You can also write NULL as 0xff&0xff00.
03:01:55 <ais523> I've seen -~ and ~- suggested as "+1" and "-1" operators
03:02:06 <ais523> (by Raymond Chen, who was uncharacteristically for him trolling)
03:02:16 <ais523> not sure which way round they are offhand
03:05:04 <zzo38> I think it is OK if you cannot make unary plus on a pointer, in case a null pointer isn't zero on your computer
03:05:43 <zzo38> ais523: I didn't think of that but yes it can work, it look like
03:06:20 <zzo38> It might help in some code-golfs if the precedence is wrong to otherwise write +1 and -1
03:08:20 <oerjan> `! c printf("%d", 1+~+1);
03:09:12 <oerjan> `! c printf("%d", 1-~-1);
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03:24:15 <ais523> huh, "créée" is a word in French? or is that a typo?
03:24:22 <ais523> that's a lot of vowels to have in a row
03:29:14 <coppro> if it helps, the last e is silent
03:29:30 <coppro> no I think the last e shouldn't be htere
03:30:00 <coppro> créée would be feminine
03:30:26 <coppro> maybe it's just been too long since I'm written French
03:30:55 <coppro> apparently you *can* use créée for a feminine object, although it's uncommon
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03:56:07 <ais523> I translated it as "created" from context and because I recognised the route
03:56:12 <ais523> didn't realise it was a gendered version, though
03:56:27 <ais523> and no wonder the final e is dying out
03:58:13 <pikhq> Maybe I'm misreading, but to *me* it looks like "cr??e".
03:58:22 <ais523> the question marks are e-acutes
03:58:42 <ais523> maybe my client sent them in Latin-1 (they're in that charset) rather than UTF-8?
03:58:58 <ais523> it is set to UTF-8 mode, though
03:59:15 <pikhq> It's gotta be weirder than that, because my client on invalid UTF-8 tries Latin-1.
03:59:33 <ais523> is this coppro's use of the word or mine that you're checking?
03:59:57 <pikhq> Both are showing as the string "cr??e".
04:00:06 <ais523> sounds like a misconfiguration to me
04:00:16 <ais523> but I can't think of any obvious ones that'd cause that result
04:00:20 <ais523> especially seeing two ? rather than four
04:00:40 <pikhq> And I've been using this irssi config for ages.
04:00:50 <pikhq> And accented characters have shown just fine before.
04:00:55 <coppro> usually that's my problem
04:01:00 <coppro> screen gets misconfigured
04:01:04 <coppro> because it fucking sucks
04:01:43 <ais523> screen gives two potentially broken connections, one from the inside program to screen, one from screen to the outside program
04:01:53 <ais523> IME the inside one breaks more often
04:02:13 <coppro> yeah, and it's annoying because ^A:utf8 on doesn't always fix it
04:02:19 <pikhq> The inside one *appears* to currently be UTF-8.
04:02:47 <pikhq> *Aaaaagh*, yep, it's definitely just doing that on all UTF-8.
04:02:51 <pikhq> Fuck you screen, fuck you.
04:03:21 <ais523> from the description of the problem
04:03:30 <ais523> I'm guessing it's actually the outside connection that's broken here
04:03:33 <ais523> and the inside one is working fine
04:03:53 <ais523> this also means that us sending Latin-1 wouldn't help at all
04:04:10 <ais523> easy enough to test: cre
04:04:15 <pikhq> For extra fun, though, I'm *literally* using "screen -U" to attach to the session.
04:04:53 <pikhq> ... what the ever loving fuck
04:05:00 <pikhq> HOW DID THAT GET SET IN MY ENVIRONMENT
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04:05:17 <pikhq> But what the fuck?
04:05:21 <ais523> what should it be? C.UTF-8? en_US.UTF-8?
04:05:41 <coppro> pikhq: -U is ignored when attaching
04:05:45 * ski . o O ( `^A:utf8 on on' )
04:05:47 <ais523> I have a French locale installed for debugging locale-related problems
04:06:04 <coppro> pikhq: it got set because screen fucking sucks
04:06:30 <pikhq> Nonono. *Outside of screen* LANG=C.
04:06:34 <ais523> screen is a constant source of aggravation to me in NH4
04:06:36 <ais523> (ipbt is worse, though)
04:06:44 <ais523> the problem with ipbt is that it can decode codes that it can't render
04:06:48 <ais523> thus it fails to fall back gracefully
04:06:52 <pikhq> shachaf: Mostly good.
04:07:00 <ais523> is there a good view of the mountain?
04:07:06 <pikhq> I'm in north San Jose ATM.
04:07:06 <ais523> or is it misleadingly named?
04:07:12 <pikhq> Adjacent to Milpitas.
04:07:26 <pikhq> ais523: There is a decent view of adjoining mountains.
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04:10:14 <pikhq> This is mysterious.
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04:10:36 <ais523> pikhq: where is your locale set?
04:10:43 <ais523> normally it'd be in .bashrc or the like
04:10:48 <ais523> maybe it isn't being set anywhere and is defaulting to C
04:11:01 <pikhq> I have no idea where it's getting set, it previously was getting set to en_US.UTF-8.
04:11:16 <pikhq> Also, it's not *defaulting to C*. In that case LANG would be unset.
04:11:25 <pikhq> It is *being explicitly set to C*.
04:11:42 <ais523> it could be set in some process a long way up the tree (probably not init, but…), and never being unset
04:11:56 <ais523> I would laugh so much if it were systemd
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04:12:30 <ais523> first thought upon seeing the username: "herbs in ADOM would be Turing-complete, if it had infinitely large levels, and were designed specifically to do that"
04:12:50 <pikhq> Obvious easy solution is a big hammer: add LANG=en_US.UTF-8 to .profile
04:13:04 <ais523> another possibility: was in the wrong #esoteric and noticed upon seeing the join method
04:13:12 <ais523> pikhq: that's not only easy, it's also arguably correct
04:14:49 <pikhq> In general, locale is a per-user configuration setting, after all.
04:16:17 <pikhq> That at least answers most of my questions.
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04:25:39 <oren> I have utf-8 characters in my screen statuslien
04:25:50 <oren> it never seems to mess up
04:26:23 <oren> ASUS Broken 時 Jul 26 Sun 00:26 窓 0 bash 1 bash 2* bash
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04:27:12 <oren> orenwatson.be 時 Jul 26 Sun 04:27 窓 0* bash
04:27:44 <oren> that's the inner screen on orenwatson.be
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06:08:58 <ais523> Wallacoloo: your connection problems are spamming the channel
06:10:03 <Wallacoloo> Oh shoot. Sorry ais523. I'm troubleshooting driver issues with steam on Linux & my IRC client is configured to autoconnect whenever my desktop starts.
06:10:18 <ais523> I thought you probably didn't know, which is why I let you know
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06:28:48 <zzo38> Do you have the example?
06:29:30 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, go through the list, and drop any item that comes after something it should come before
06:29:46 <hppavilion[1]> It ALWAYS produces a correctly-sorted list, though it's a lossy algorithm
06:30:02 <myname> can do better: return the first element
06:30:43 <zzo38> Depends what you are trying to do clearly, if it is better or not
06:31:00 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: it's O(n) in both cases
06:31:01 <myname> O(n) = O(n-1) = O(n+1)
06:31:10 <ais523> because you're confused about how big-O notation works
06:31:19 <ais523> as n gets larger, it dwarfs the 1
06:31:55 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: basically you omit all details that become irrelevant as n gets larger
06:32:07 <myname> so there clearly is a constant to make n an upper bound of n+1
06:32:14 <hppavilion[1]> But one could argue that returning [0] is even MORE efficient
06:32:22 <ais523> i.e. the proportion of the whole thing they are tends to zero
06:32:34 <myname> hppavilion[1]: depending on your architecture
06:32:44 <ais523> also, you ignore any effects that would simply multiply by a constant, or anything bounded by a constant
06:33:13 <ais523> so O(2*n**2 + n) = O(2*n**2) (n is dwarfed) = O(n**2) (ignore multiplication by a constant)
06:33:21 <ais523> the fastest you can get is O(1)
06:33:25 <ais523> I don't think dropsort would be
06:33:31 <ais523> basically because it isn't very interesting
06:33:40 <ais523> maybe something along those lines could be
06:33:45 <myname> ais523: well, the fastest is o(1) :p
06:33:46 <ais523> especially if you made it into an esolang somehow
06:34:01 <ais523> myname: does that even make sense? :-P
06:34:13 <hppavilion[1]> It would be well-encouraged to make an Esoalg in an Esolang
06:34:27 <myname> ais523: 1/n is in o(1), i don't know an algorithm with that runtime, though
06:34:29 <zzo38> I think I have seen the esoteric list of sorting algorithm
06:34:33 <hppavilion[1]> But do you think I'd get in trouble if I created a page for an Esoteric Algorithm?
06:34:43 <shachaf> ais523: Parts of algorithms can be faster than O(1) time.
06:34:44 <ais523> myname: that implies it gets faster the more work it has to do
06:34:58 <shachaf> E.g. O(1/n) for part of an amortized thing.
06:35:08 <shachaf> But of course you end up with O(1+1/n) overall, which is just O(1).
06:35:31 <myname> normal approach on randomized algorithms
06:35:57 <zzo38> They aren't actually useful for sorting but some may have other uses in the proper program, whether it is Drop Sort or Intelligent Design Sort or whatever
06:36:03 <myname> (n log n)/n^2 is in o(1) and exists in amortized problems
06:36:21 <ais523> zzo38: Intelligent Design Sort is where you return the list itself, and require someone else to have laready ordered it
06:36:37 <zzo38> ais523: Yes, you assume it is already in the optimial order, I know
06:37:02 <myname> we had a "efficient c programming" course here
06:37:02 <ais523> oh, that was meant to be a question
06:37:08 <ais523> but I forgot the question mark
06:37:23 <myname> i always thought we should make "unefficient assembly programming" as a contest
06:37:35 <zzo38> It might be used in cases where it is too difficult/complicated to figure out the proper algorithm to make the optimal order for whatever it is, such as if an ordinary sort doesn't work for some reason
06:37:53 <ais523> myname: that still looks reasonable?
06:38:07 <myname> solve a problem as slow as possible so that you cannot drop any part of the code to make it faster and still solve the problem
06:38:10 <ais523> or that can be arbitrarily stupid?
06:38:42 <ais523> I mean, something like stoogesort or bogosort can't be meaningfully simplified and yet is very slow compared to other algorithms
06:38:47 <ais523> (stoogesort is hilarious)
06:39:00 <myname> like bogosort cannot be made faster by dropping stuff, but quicksort where you multiply your input and divide it again can
06:39:13 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: What idea you have of esoteric cryptological systems?
06:39:42 <myname> e.g. we have to make a brainfuck interpreter in assembly
06:40:00 <myname> and i had students that wrote binary search for the command to execute
06:40:28 <myname> that way they always have 4 comparisons and jumps for every command instead of a maximum of 8
06:40:45 <zzo38> Just post on here when you have some, or a section in your userpage; this channel is logged too
06:40:58 <ais523> myname: how does that compare performance-wise to a jump table?
06:41:05 <ais523> I'm never sure whether jump tables are really fast or really slow in asm
06:41:16 <ais523> did any of your students do RLE?
06:41:18 <myname> they may be the fastest
06:41:38 <myname> the thing is, binary search is pretty useless on real brainfuck code
06:42:04 <myname> i would check in the order of how common they are in larger code
06:42:27 <myname> like + and > are way more often used than , in a typical.bf programm
06:42:50 <zzo38> Jump table probably does work more fast. But, in what computer is this assembly language of?
06:43:35 <myname> other than that, nothing specifically
06:44:14 <ais523> zzo38: jump tables can ruin branch prediction
06:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43589&oldid=43202 * Hppavilion1 * (+430) Added a link to my #esocrypt IRC channel. Please don't hurt me, I just want people to know it exists, and it's more-or-less relevant.
06:44:55 <zzo38> Yes, if you are using a computer with hardware branch prediction
06:45:10 <zzo38> I suppose x86 probably does
06:45:16 <zzo38> But I program in 6502 assembly language myself
06:46:41 <zzo38> Which is a more sensible system; I don't like hardware branch prediction it should be made in software.
06:47:42 <zzo38> What help you need?
06:47:45 <ais523> zzo38: well branch hinting is done by arranging code so that the branch being taken is the likely path, and the branch not being taken is the unlikely path
06:47:53 <hppavilion[1]> How do I set up my channel such that other people can't gain control over it by using my username?
06:48:09 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Use the CS command; see CS HELP for details
06:48:20 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: first you need to register with NickServ
06:48:32 <ais523> do "/msg nickserv help" for info, which many clients can abbreviate "/ns help"
06:48:33 <zzo38> Try the "NS HELP" command for details about how to register
06:48:51 <ais523> then you register the channel with ChanServ "/msg chanserv help" or "/cs help" for info
06:49:07 <ais523> the NS and CS shortcuts were possibly designed for zzo38 ;-)
06:49:34 <myname> ais523: how about featuring funciton? :p
06:49:45 <ais523> to put on the main page
06:49:58 <ais523> having to write those is the main reason we rarely get new featured languages
06:53:13 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]; Now you would need chanserv also, then.
06:53:57 <zzo38> Look at the help files first
06:54:42 <zzo38> In 6502 codes to make a jump table I generally will make two tables, one with the high byte of one less than the address to jump to, and one with the low byte of one less than the address to jump to; I use macro to do this. Many people though seem not doing it like this
06:56:18 <ais523> you need to remember your password
06:56:41 <ais523> and no, at this point (so long as you use the channel often enough that it doesn't get dropped), you have control of the channel and can stop unauthorized uses
06:56:55 <ais523> although they won't stop automatically
06:56:58 <hppavilion[1]> It's my kind-of-secure but not-too-secure password
06:57:00 <ais523> you actually have to turn up to stop them
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07:00:49 <hppavilion[1]> I've never been involved in a mailing list that I was actually interested in..
07:02:39 <myname> advice of a friend of mine: do not subscribe to lkml unless you know you either delete regularly or have a client that can handle deleting of huge amount of mails
07:05:16 <myname> just write a bf interpreter in it :p
07:08:42 <ais523> Walpurgisnacht: Malbolge itself isn't TC
07:08:45 <ais523> because of finite memory
07:08:55 <ais523> there's a variant Malbolge-T that might be, but hasn't been proven to do so
07:09:20 <ais523> Malbolge seems to be able to handle arbitrary control flow and arbitrary action at an arbitrary point, so it's just the data storage that's the problem
07:10:03 <Walpurgisnacht> Can I make a variant of malbolge that has a large finite memory
07:10:22 <ais523> you could just increase the number of trits beyond 10
07:10:40 <hppavilion[1]> I'm starting my own Esoteric Programming Shit mailing list
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07:12:46 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone who wants to join email esolangsmailinglist@gmail.com and tell me
07:14:07 <myname> how welcome is it to extend somebody elses language? should i make a fork or a section in the article with my idea?
07:15:05 <hppavilion[1]> I'm not sure you're supposed to edit the article itself
07:18:31 <zzo38> It might depend, what languages are you intend to extend? Malbolge, or others, or what?
07:21:31 <fowl> Thats the logo
07:21:57 <fowl> Limes make 99 bottles of beer taste better
07:22:53 <myname> replacing it with anything else makes beer taste better :p
07:25:30 <zzo38> (such as in case you do not want to get drunk from too much beer)
07:25:43 <zzo38> (and 99 is probably too much beer)
07:28:07 <zzo38> Well, I suppose nobody does at this time anyways
07:29:43 <zzo38> But anyone who does later can write the message to you isn't it?
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07:42:51 <myname> awesome. i have a back
07:45:27 <zzo38> Do you know what SQLite extensions Mozilla defines (if any)?
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09:27:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43590&oldid=40285 * Rdebath * (+402) Checked all 0-255 for wrapping, LH cells, value in current cells and general formatting.
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10:20:54 <myname> data List a = [] | a : List a
10:21:07 <myname> is this the actual haskell implementation?
10:22:21 <Taneb> myname, well, instead of List it's [], which is special
10:22:32 <Taneb> But the definition is certainly equivalent to that
10:23:45 <myname> woud you be able to define something like that with the syntactic sugar yourself or does it actually need support from.the compiler?
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10:26:05 <Taneb> it needs support from the compiler
10:38:06 <Taneb> (although it doesn't in, for example, Agda)
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10:48:01 <myname> that's only for the data [a] or also for the : constructor?
10:48:17 <myname> i.e. is it possible to use ? as infix constructor
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10:58:04 <Taneb> myname, infix constructors must begin with a colon
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11:57:16 <fizzie> "Dear friends, Good day! Glade to know you are engaged in amusement attractions."
11:57:43 <fizzie> Laurie from Tianjin Mickrod International Trade Co., Ltd wants to sell me electric trackless trains.
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11:59:13 <fizzie> Ooh, spam to wiki@esolangs.org too. I haven't seen much of that.
11:59:23 <fizzie> Spam in Swedish, even.
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12:01:37 <fizzie> Actually, it's the same thing ("free link exchange"), but from "different" people, in English, German, Swedish and Polish.
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12:29:35 <Jafet> Slashes, enterprise edition: https://github.com/mbuettner/retina
12:30:27 <Jafet> (actually, it's more similar to Thue.)
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12:57:02 <b_jonas> quick, what's sed for joining lines?
12:58:04 <oerjan> b_jonas: complicated, i have to look it up every time
12:58:55 <b_jonas> yes, I'll just stick to perl for this
12:59:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: possibly just some lines
12:59:17 <b_jonas> all lines in this simple case
12:59:23 <b_jonas> or I guess I could just use ed or ex
13:03:06 <oerjan> clearly they should just have made a stream version of ex
13:03:30 <b_jonas> nah, I'm generally satisfied with doing everything with perl
13:03:35 <b_jonas> I dunno why I even tried sed for this
13:03:49 <b_jonas> I know perl well enough to do these kinds of things easily
13:04:28 * oerjan notes a wind blowing up there, high above b_jonas
13:05:31 <b_jonas> be careful, it can get strong
13:05:42 <Jafet> Streaming ex in batch ed?
13:06:10 <b_jonas> like, Windstorm with X=7 strong potentially
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13:49:42 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] <hppavilion[1]> I created the #esocrypt IRC on here <-- great, now you'll get necromancers looking for the other kind of #esoteric
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13:52:51 <boily> aaaurgh. mosquito bite on the top of my foot.
13:53:01 * boily scratch scratch scratch
13:53:30 <oerjan> mosquitos are tiny vampires. soon you'll turn into one and start hanging out at #esocrypt.
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13:56:29 <oerjan> `learn Mosquitos are tiny vampires, sucking out your soul.
13:56:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'mosquito': Mosquitos are tiny vampires, sucking out your soul.
13:56:43 <boily> I'm not sure I have a soul to start with...
13:56:55 <oerjan> maybe they got you earlier
13:58:06 <boily> that wouldn't surprise me. once got tired counting bites after some day during a vacation.
13:58:23 <boily> I think we were camping in Connecticut or something.
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14:00:35 <boily> also, bœrjan matin!
14:01:55 <mauris> @tell ais523 i remember which way around -~ and ~- work by looking which way the squiggle points. right is +1, left is -1
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14:07:51 <boily> the Tonsil A has "sqiggle" for "~".
14:12:57 <mauris> @tell ais523 also créée is totally a (common) word! dutch has "zeeën" which is similarly typo-looking and means "seas"
14:13:34 <mauris> @tell ais523 that ridiculous welsh place name has "llll" in it i guess, but i wonder if there's a less contrived example (although the welsh would count it as two letters, ll+ll)
14:17:40 <boily> of course créée is a word. it has two «é» to make sure it's real! the more diacritics, the realer the word.
14:19:33 <boily> how is it pronounced?
14:19:47 <b_jonas> the way it's written I guess
14:20:20 <fizzie> I don't think Finnish has any word with more than two of the same character repeated consecutively. But there were mentions of some other oddities I found when looking for one, like five consecutive double letters ("liikkeessään") and 14 consecutive "dots" ("pääjääjää").
14:20:57 <fizzie> As in, a compound? No, neither of those are compound words.
14:21:35 <b_jonas> many consecutive dots... yeah, there was some funny word with lots of dots in Hungarian. they look especially funny in handwriting styles where "ü" and "ii" looks exactly the same
14:24:10 <b_jonas> Hungarian has specific rules that forbid three consecutive copies of the same consonant, so they're always reduced to two or written with a hyphen, probably because three wouldn't be pronounced differently from two anyway
14:25:36 <fizzie> "liikkeessään" is formed approximately as "liike" (motion, shop) -> "liike" + "-ssä" = "liikkeessä" (inessive case + some mutation) -> "liikkeessä" + "-n" -> "liikkeessään" (inflection for third-person singular), e.g. "in his/her shop".
14:25:53 <b_jonas> so we have words like “tollal” (which should really be “tolllal”) and “sakk-kör” (which should be “sakkkör”, the hyphen is completely redundant but the rules ask for it anyway)
14:25:58 <fizzie> Okay, I guess pääjääjää is a bit of a compound, pää + jääjä + inflection.
14:26:43 <b_jonas> “tollal” sort of makes sense because it's pronounced like that anyway, and “Papp-pal” is fine as well, but the “sakk-kör” is a pointless rule just to make spelling harder to learn
14:28:32 <fizzie> Finnish compound words insert a hyphen if the same vowel occurs on both sides, which doesn't happen for same consonants. Sadly, we only have double vowels at word ends/beginnings, never double consonants, otherwise you could get triplicate letters. As it is, you can only get stuff like "takaa-ajaja" with a hyphen.
14:29:33 <b_jonas> I wonder if it's possible to get a tripled vowel in a Hungarian word
14:30:11 <b_jonas> I should try to make up some compound like that
14:30:43 <b_jonas> using "Hawaii" would be cheating I guess
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14:45:00 <fizzie> Oh, we do have consonant elision in some case forms, which does end up in a triple vowel, but the convention is to put an apostrophe in there. So you get from "vaaka" (scale) e.g. the genitive "vaa'an" or the plural "vaa'at".
14:47:30 <fizzie> And I think there's something special in the pronunciation too, like a glottal stop or at least some sort of stress thing. It's not just a super-long /ɑ/.
14:48:40 <oerjan> @tell hppavilion[1] I think by the freenode rules you should have called it ##esocrypt, hope this doesn't create any trouble
14:49:35 <oerjan> also, i have an urge to swat everyone for not mentioning that
14:50:33 <oerjan> Hawaii also has a glottal stop, in the original
14:50:34 <boily> I think you meant "swaaat" hth
14:50:58 <oerjan> boily: what, mixing conversations? how rude!
14:51:26 <fizzie> /ʋɑːːt/ is maybe how a Finnish person would pronounce an incredulous flat "what.", except I don't think ːː is proper IPA notation. The Wikipedia table has just "long", "half-long" and "extra-short", there's no "extra-long".
14:53:45 <boily> “[The sign ː] may be doubled for an extra-long sound...”
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15:01:59 <b_jonas> I thought it was somethink like /e/, /eˑ/, /eː/, /eːˑ/, /eːː/ for increasing lengths
15:02:27 <b_jonas> but only two length are differentiated in most languages so we just use /e/ and /eː/
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15:14:20 <oerjan> <Walpurgisnacht> Replace the entire beer with lime <-- i am pretty sure i am one of the people who would _not_ find this an improvement
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15:15:47 <mauris> i made a tiny cfluviurrh interpreter in ruby https://bpaste.net/show/6314e48df018
15:16:15 <oerjan> i think hppavilion[1] is breaking a fundamental rule of esolanging
15:16:27 <oerjan> "you cannot manufacture interest in esolangs"
15:16:46 <boily> avoid success at all cost?
15:17:07 <oerjan> no, it is possible to succeed, but only by accident
15:17:23 <oerjan> also hard work i guess
15:17:50 <oerjan> but you cannot _expect_ others to take interest.
15:20:22 <oerjan> iow i predict both his new channel and his new mailing list to fade away shortly
15:20:51 <fizzie> You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.
15:21:10 <fizzie> I don't think that's entirely true, though.
15:21:19 <fizzie> For the horse-and-water case, I mean.
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15:23:16 <oerjan> you just need a sufficiently powerful hose
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15:29:43 <mroman> theer's a new esolang channel?
15:30:34 <oerjan> ok it's not for languages, but encryption
15:30:48 <mroman> There's no better esoteric encryption system than using the discrete logarithm
15:31:08 <oerjan> you're just not thinking quantum enough hth
15:31:22 <mroman> g^a = x MOD m, a is the plaintext, (g,m) is the key, x is the cipher text
15:32:56 <mroman> I'call it "you ain't decrypting shit"-system
15:33:19 <mroman> even if I give you the key, you will need a lot of effort to decrypt it.
15:35:49 <oerjan> i think it's generally assumed for an encryption system that the _creator_ should be able to decrypt it.
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15:47:09 <boily> I like fungotcoding. you spew off enough nonsense to be picked by fungot. eventually, the recipient will have invoked fungot enough that it will have generated the original message.
15:47:09 <fungot> boily: be sure to take certain kinds of it are
15:48:09 <MDude> That's good advice fungot.
15:48:09 <fungot> MDude: the original monkey king series?
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15:49:08 <boily> the Original Infinite Fungot Theorem.
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15:52:12 <oerjan> <izabera> http://endless.horse/ <-- i approve
15:53:05 <oerjan> boily: it would work better if fizzie ever regenerated the irc style
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15:55:28 <HackEgo> GoToTell: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
15:55:34 <boily> fizzie: do you have regenerate?
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16:12:38 <mroman> @tell oerjan Don't tell me how my esocrypt system is supposed to work .
16:12:55 <mroman> This oerjan is killing my imagination.
16:13:07 <mroman> @tell oerjan #nocreativity
16:13:31 <mroman> This hashtag should emphasize how serious I am about this.
16:13:43 <boily> "This oerjan"? there are multiple oerjans out there?
16:15:55 <mroman> boily: There's always an equal opposite oerjan
16:16:34 <boily> mroman: I think an opposite oerjan is an int-e hth
16:24:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43591&oldid=38325 * R.e.s. * (+620) /* Turing-completeness of BCT without arbitrary memory string as input? */
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17:13:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitwise Cyclic Tag]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43592&oldid=41104 * R.e.s. * (+704) BCT remains TC even if the initial data-string is aways just a single 1; remove reference to defunct website
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17:23:15 <Wright> Are there any esolangs based on tag systems (cyclic or not) besides Platts and BCT?
17:23:58 <Slereah__> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Wiki_Cyclic_Tag
17:25:55 <Slereah__> Cyclic tags are one of those things that are done a lot because it's very simple
17:26:10 <Wright> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Tag exists, too.
17:26:26 <Slereah__> Cyclic tags, brainfuck, logical combinators, cellular automatons
17:29:58 <Wright> Yeah, a brainfuck interpreter is usually one of the first things I write in a new language
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17:52:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cood]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43593 * 191.248.34.240 * (+5484) creating page
17:52:08 <fizzie> @tell boily No, I'm too afraid.
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17:58:57 <oren> language where before interpreting, the parse tree is height-balanced.
17:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43594&oldid=43543 * 191.248.34.240 * (+11) /* C */ cood added
18:00:53 <oren> x+y*z+3 -> (x+y)*(z+3)
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18:06:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43595&oldid=43540 * 74.15.57.112 * (+139)
18:06:25 * int-e eyes the topic... damn, so much for that question.
18:11:46 <int-e> (Actually I'd like to questions the legitimacy of questioning the legitimacy of that question.)
18:26:25 <shachaf> There is no questioning in the topic.
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18:28:38 <oren> what is with this bullshit
18:28:59 <oren> they display 3d videos with left on top and right below it!?!?!?
18:29:41 <int-e> who's "they"? ... and do they want a wide screen experience?
18:30:52 <int-e> speculating, it makes sense for hardware that switches polarity for the whole screen (it would display the video at twice the nominal frame rate).
18:32:42 <oren> well in this case I guess "they" woudl be the authors of the mplayer plugin
18:34:05 <oren> however, the real bullshit, is that someone noticed they did this and then relied on it, to encode a 2d video as 3d to avoid the copyright gestapo
18:34:08 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m890zzNKoGM&feature=html5_3d
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18:58:05 <MDude> Would it make sense to just toss my Firstr profile on the chan?
19:04:28 <newsham> https://github.com/peterferrie/brainfuck6502/blob/master/bf6502.s
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19:10:16 <oren> google you have failed me
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20:33:15 <Taneb> I haven't seen a single other human being today
20:33:27 <Taneb> In fact I do not think I've seen another animal
20:33:44 <Taneb> Feeling pretty lonely :(
20:35:02 <lambdabot> Local time for Taneb is Sun Jul 26 21:35:03
20:35:17 <Taneb> shachaf, I don't think I've seen any flie
20:35:47 <shachaf> you should come to california. lots of humans here.
20:36:09 <shachaf> and poutine, though maybe it's not very good
20:36:13 <Taneb> California is far away
20:36:24 <Taneb> And I could conceivably make poutine here
20:36:52 <Taneb> How does poutine differ from what I would call "cheesy chips"?
20:37:42 <shachaf> Unfortunately the gravy is usually not vegetarian.
20:38:04 <Taneb> I am not fond of gravy
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20:38:13 <Taneb> Unless it is on really dry meat that needs the taste
20:38:39 <shachaf> ok well there are things that aren't poutine too
20:38:45 <shachaf> so that pretty much covers it
20:38:57 <Taneb> There are things here that aren't poutine, too
20:39:14 <Taneb> Some humans, I believe
20:39:19 <Taneb> They are just good at hiding
20:40:22 <Taneb> Also like two rivers with four letter names
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20:40:47 <ais523> the UK is full of rivers with four letter names
20:41:58 <shachaf> There are some here too, though.
20:42:10 <shachaf> We didn't miss it. No need to announce.
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20:42:31 <hppavilion[1]> I was just looking for a way to announce my presence
20:42:56 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm not programmed to be introduced automatically
20:43:06 <Taneb> ais523, what's Birmingham's river?
20:43:23 <ais523> Taneb: the one that goes through Birmingham is the Rea
20:43:35 <Taneb> That does not have four letters
20:44:17 <fizzie> Thames has four letters, when it's called Isis.
20:44:20 <ais523> it eventually flows into the River Tame, still technically inside Birmingham
20:44:22 <ais523> and that has four letters
20:44:48 <Taneb> York has the Foss which flows into the Ouse in York
20:44:57 <Taneb> The Ouse later flows into the Hull which is not in York
20:46:07 <Taneb> Then the Hull becomes the Humber which is neither in York nor 4 letters long
20:46:21 <ais523> most of the ones that actually go to the sea have longer names, for some reason
20:46:53 <Taneb> The river I'm most familiar with is the Tyne, which goes right to the sea
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20:59:10 <lambdabot> mroman said 4h 46m 32s ago: Don't tell me how my esocrypt system is supposed to work .
20:59:10 <lambdabot> mroman said 4h 46m 3s ago: #nocreativity
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21:16:18 <Taneb> Do you know of a PDF reader that can take command line input?
21:18:43 <Taneb> Thanks, I'll try that
21:28:12 <oren> Wait a second, the Humber? the Humber is a river in Toronto, not England!!!
21:29:01 <oren> it's where Humber College is
21:30:01 <hppavilion[1]> Would it be appropriate to create a page on the Standard Streams for educational purposes for designers, provided that a few esoteric streams are added?
21:30:50 <ais523> oren: lots of places in North America are named after places in the UK
21:32:54 <oren> what is a standard stream? you mean like in C++?
21:33:24 <oren> those are FILE*'s not streams
21:33:38 <oren> you probably are thinking of cout cin and cerr
21:33:54 <oren> which are ostreams and istreams
21:34:21 <ais523> oren: C++'s abstractions around streams are called "streams"; C's abstraction is called "FILE *"
21:34:33 <ais523> the streams themselves are normally called stdin/stdout/stderr, though
21:35:51 <oerjan> we have articles on Stacks and Queues, so why not (and they're not particularly esoteric)
21:36:47 <oerjan> btw name should probably be in the singular
21:37:13 <oren> ais523: I think that's not exactly right, since the abstraction is over UNIX file descriptors or Windows Consoles?
21:37:47 <ais523> oren: on Windows it doesn't have to be a console, it could be a file redirection
21:38:43 <oren> mhm true. but either way, it's not an abstraction over a stream? a 'stream' is the abstraction.
21:40:06 <oerjan> don't forget the bit bucket hth
21:40:13 <hppavilion[1]> Esoerr: When something in an Esolang goes in an expected way, you are alerted here
21:40:17 <oerjan> important for reversible langs
21:41:08 <oerjan> so it's for complaining to the program?
21:42:12 <oren> oerjan: you might be onto something there. suppose you have a pipe series like
21:42:25 <oren> A <ifile | B >ofile
21:42:52 <oren> Then A should be able to report errors, which B can handle transparently
21:43:24 <oerjan> hm we need stdpraise and stdpraisein too
21:45:02 <oerjan> for a new, positively oriented paradigm
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21:54:56 <hppavilion[1]> stderrin, stdyay, and stdyayin are not the esoteric streams, btw. They are the Extended Standard Streams
22:01:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43596 * Hppavilion1 * (+3232) Created Page
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22:07:01 <hppavilion[1]> It lists non-esoteric and non-standard streams that a language may use
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22:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stream]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43597&oldid=43596 * Hppavilion1 * (+1009) Added utility streams, not sure if this should be kept.
22:18:13 <Sgeo> nortti, do you know where I can read Seven Crimes and Punishments? I want to learn about the end of the world, and I think that story is it
22:18:26 <Sgeo> Although afaik all songs so far only approach the end of the world
22:23:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EthanBierlein * New user account
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22:39:31 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> How does poutine differ from what I would call "cheesy chips"? <-- iiuc there is no potato in poutine, and the cheese is not _ordinary_ cheese hth
22:40:18 <oerjan> @tell Taneb oops i'm wrong on the first part
22:40:37 <oerjan> next time, google _first_ twsh
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22:48:08 <oerjan> `learn The Rea is the river flowing through Birmingham. It is jealous of the other rivers having four letters.
22:48:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'rea': The Rea is the river flowing through Birmingham. It is jealous of the other rivers having four letters.
22:48:59 <int-e> "to write some history"
22:49:36 <int-e> ifaa - I find acrynyms amusing
22:49:51 <int-e> but I cannot spell them correctly.
22:50:28 <fizzie> @tell ais523 To be fair, the C things are called "streams" too. "The types declared [by <stdio.h>] are -- FILE which is an object type capable of recording all the information needed to control a *stream* --" (C11 7.21.1p2);
22:50:32 <fizzie> @tell ais523 ... "-- stderr, stdin, stdout which -- point to the FILE objects associated, respectively, with the standard error, input, and output *streams*." (C11 7.21.1p3)
22:50:52 <fizzie> (Also, chapter 7.21.2 is titled "Streams".)
22:51:10 <oerjan> i have no file but i must stream
22:51:49 <oerjan> why can't i remember that it's and, not but
22:54:10 <shachaf> those words have the same logical meaning hth
22:54:44 <oerjan> yes but when mangling quotes it's important to mangle only the necessary bits hth
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22:58:28 <BotLol> never though I'd be here
22:58:32 <int-e> oerjan: one kamikaze attack yearly? perhaps I should sleep instead, this isn't getting anywhere.
22:59:08 <HackEgo> BotLol: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
23:00:17 <ais523> when's the last time anyone used the regular `welcome, non-ironically?
23:00:29 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought that sentence was referring to the film _Anaconda_, which I've never seen.
23:00:42 <shachaf> I did see the cover in another language, though.
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23:01:13 <int-e> ais523: I don't know. I thought we never use that one because it's too plain.
23:01:19 <ais523> but it's the most sensible
23:01:21 <ais523> the rest are showing off
23:01:31 <shachaf> But I guess it's a famous science fiction story instead.
23:01:33 <ais523> really I'd delete all the `welcome variants but the foreign-language ones if I could
23:02:01 <int-e> I like `relcome since it looks just like `welcome to me ;-)
23:02:21 <fizzie> I like relcome because it's so whimsical.
23:02:23 <ais523> int-e: same, I also have colours filtered out
23:02:27 <int-e> "send goats to me?" why would I do that?
23:02:27 <ais523> shachaf: but I'd just get reverted
23:02:45 <fizzie> ais523: Probably not at the moment, because I still haven't fixed reverting.
23:03:17 <shachaf> ais523: I think people went overboard with all the welcome variations.
23:03:23 * int-e tries to find a Schaf instead. Or some Schlaf...
23:03:27 <shachaf> I would not revert most of them.
23:03:59 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ * \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ arienvenido \ as86 \ aseen \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ blessyou \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins
23:04:14 <HackEgo> ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ ＴＯ ＴＨＥ ＩＮＴＥＲＮＡＴＩＯＮＡＬ ＨＵＢ ＦＯＲ ＥＳＯＴＥＲＩＣ ＰＲＯＧＲＡＭＭＩＮＧ ＬＡＮＧＵＡＧＥ ＤＥＳＩＧＮ ＡＮＤ ＤＥＰＬＯＹＭＥＮＴ！ ＦＯＲ ＭＯＲＥ ＩＮＦＯＲＭＡＴＩＯＮ， ＣＨＥ
23:04:22 <shachaf> It makes sense that oerjan would like famous science fiction stories, being famous himself.
23:04:42 <MDude> But is he a science fiction story?
23:05:37 <HackEgo> ais523 tswett tswett oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull ion ion ion
23:06:24 <shachaf> `` hg log bin/ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ | grep summary:
23:06:26 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert 999 \ summary: <ion> (unknown command) \ summary: <ion> (unknown command) \ summary: <ion> (unknown command)
23:06:46 <shachaf> I'm typing on my phone so it's hard to investigate further.
23:07:35 <oren> ｔｈｏｓｅ ｗｅｒｅｎ’ｔ ｗｉｄｅ ｃｈａｒａｃｔｅｒｓ ｔｈｏｕｇｈ
23:08:41 <oren> ｏｒ ｒａｔｈｅｒ， ｔｈｅｙ ｗｅｒｅｎ’ｔ ｏｆ ｔｈｅ ｒｉｇｈｔ ｃａｓｅ？
23:09:14 <oren> Ｗｅｌｃｏｍｅ ｔｏ ｔｈｅ ｉｎｔｅｒｎａｔｉｏｎａｌ ｈｕｂ ｆｏｒ．．．
23:09:28 <shachaf> Fullwidth characters in English conversation are kind of annoying and hard to read.
23:09:42 <shachaf> Presumably that's why that entry was deleted.
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23:10:30 <oren> Ｔｈｅ’ｙｒｅ ｎｏｔ ｈａｒｄ ｔｏ ｒｅａｄ
23:10:30 <oerjan> shachaf: you're assuming i'd actually _read_ that famous SF story. what i've read _about_ it doesn't encourage me.
23:11:27 <shachaf> I don't think I assumed that.
23:11:53 <shachaf> Not knowing its title isn't good evidence that you've read it.
23:12:09 <int-e> Ｔhｅy ａrｅ ａnｎoｙiｎg tｈoｕgｈ.
23:14:11 <int-e> (it very much depends on the font)
23:15:31 <fizzie> Did we have a 𝖜𝖊𝖑𝖈𝖔𝖒𝖊 and friends?
23:16:39 <fizzie> There's like 13 different "fonts" in that block.
23:16:54 <int-e> (it's hard to make out these symbols on http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/welcome.png ;-) )
23:17:57 <fizzie> Mathematical bold, italic, bold italic, script, bold script, fraktur, double-struck, bold fractur, sans-serif, sans-serif bold, sans-serif italic, sans-serif bold italic, and monospace.
23:18:28 <int-e> Yeah. Some day I'll read the rationale for that particular addition.
23:23:33 <Jafet> Tｈen tｈｅrｅ aｒｅ tｈe aｃaｄeｍic pａｐerｓ ｆｏrmaｔted liｋｅ ｔhiｓ.
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23:32:42 <Taneb> I may have the only selfie on a gopher server in the WORLD
23:33:05 <Taneb> I am going to head to bed now
23:33:39 <oren> ｗhａt’ｓ wｒoｎg ｗiｔh thｅkｅrｎｉnｇ?？
23:34:29 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you should look my up on the Wiki and see how my family tend to feel about bad kerning
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23:34:32 <Taneb> Anyway I am off now
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23:43:20 <hppavilion[1]> It executes the mainloop once every few seconds oh wait nevermind
00:01:37 <oren> たていすかんなにらせちとしはきくまのりつさそひこみも
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00:04:07 <coppro> besides tateisukannanirasechitoshihakikumanoritsusasuhinimimo
00:04:35 <oren> That is apparently the result of pressing all the letter buttons qwertyuiop[asdfghjklzxcvbnm in kana input mode
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00:05:20 <oren> ゛ぬふあうえおやゆよわほたていすかんなにらせ゜むーちとしはきくまのりれゃつさそひこみもねるめ
00:06:10 <oren> they don't appear to be in any recognisable order
00:07:32 <coppro> so I guess those are kind of grouped, the rest not so much
00:07:38 <coppro> it could be done similar to qwerty?
00:07:50 <coppro> but... hmm, then you wouldn't want all the single vowels on the top row
00:08:48 <coppro> what's the vowel extender?
00:09:07 <coppro> and why does little ya have its own key, but little yo/yu do not?
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00:10:15 <coppro> I like how mu is farther away than the handakuten
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00:27:51 <coppro> hppavilion[1]: threading in python is fucking disgusting, yes
00:28:09 <coppro> god help C++ when it gets a networking library (asio)
00:29:40 <pikhq> coppro: Lord, they'd actually manage to make something worse than BSD sockets.
00:29:53 <coppro> pikhq: I've not actually used asio
00:30:15 <pikhq> It's a boost lib. I'm already terrified.
00:30:29 <coppro> my understanding is it's high-power
00:30:40 <coppro> so if you just want to send some packets, look elsewhere
00:31:00 <pikhq> Well there's one thing it has that (sadly) standard BSD sockets doesn't.
00:31:01 <coppro> if you want to write a highly threaded webserver? probably like 6 lines, each 200 characters :P
00:31:16 <pikhq> Reasonably full-featured DNS querying.
00:31:44 <newsham> thread lightly and carry a big lock
00:32:28 <pikhq> The standard BSD socket lib only lets you *sanely* do A and AAAA queries.
00:32:52 <pikhq> Which, while by far the most common case and definitely something that should be supported, is not enough. :)
00:33:26 <coppro> it's going to be kind of nuts once they add coroutine support
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01:29:33 <zzo38> How can I get a intercepting HTTPS proxy for Linux?
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01:37:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43598&oldid=32513 * Hppavilion1 * (+255) /* Move this to make room for a more accurate page */ new section
01:38:42 <hppavilion[1]> Does anybody have any objections to my proposal on that page?
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01:46:04 <Jafet> zzo38: squid can do that http://wiki.squid-cache.org/Features/SslBump
01:47:44 <hppavilion[1]> Because this would be a (very simple) _graphical_ OS
01:48:25 <oerjan> aka it will never actually happen
01:48:56 <hppavilion[1]> Unless of course we slowly Esoterize a version of Linux.
01:49:31 <hppavilion[1]> The EsOS of my design would be more than just an OS
01:49:59 <hppavilion[1]> It would also include programs like the EsoBrowser which implements the EHTTP
01:50:59 <hppavilion[1]> What do you think of tthe idea of Esoterizing Ubuntu or something, oerjan?
01:51:28 <zzo38> Jafet: How can I tell it then to delete headers?
01:52:15 <Jafet> I don't know, you'll need to look at the documentation
01:52:37 <Jafet> A dove flies past oerjan, shedding a feather.
01:54:21 <Jafet> Note that the ubuntu project already contains an esoteric graphical operating system underneath an esoteric user-space operating system and an esoteric web browser that implements esoteric internet protocols; it's called ubuntu
01:55:27 <hppavilion[1]> Anyone want to design an esoteric internet protocol?
01:56:46 <oerjan> i think that if you can find enough people wanting to do such a thing, go ahead; also i don't think you will.
01:57:49 <Jafet> Apparently debian runs two versions of systemd: one as root and one as user...
01:59:41 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps we could design an EsOS that need not be implemented?
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02:00:19 * oerjan should stay out of this since he's obviously not going to participate
02:00:42 <lambdabot> fizzie said 8h 8m 34s ago: No, I'm too afraid.
02:01:14 <hppavilion[1]> <lambdabot> walrusman said 6 h 6 m 6 s ago: The password is "aaafkjeoaaefjaeljfaoeiofn"
02:01:25 <boily> @tell fizzie don't be afraid. it's good for you. it's for your own health. embrace. hth. fnord.
02:03:50 * boily should stay out of this :P
02:05:16 <hppavilion[1]> I'm currently taking ideas for an Esoteric Filesystem
02:05:55 <boily> how would you filesoterystem?
02:09:10 <hppavilion[1]> So should I start with the classic folder/file tree or should I scrap all existing logic of filesystems completely and start from scratch?
02:09:12 <oerjan> main verb unnecessary in these parts
02:09:20 <zzo38> Is there a HTTPS proxy that can work only when the browser is opened?
02:09:35 <zzo38> I want to strip out the "Strict-Transport-Security" header
02:10:39 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps instead of a file tree I could do nested file tables?
02:10:55 <pikhq> I suspect Hacking Team has one.
02:11:40 <hppavilion[1]> So the simplest possible filesystem: One big block of ones and zeroes. I'll call this FS_0
02:12:16 <boily> you're pushing the everything-is-a-file concept a little bit too far there. hth.
02:12:27 <oren> FS1 is what DOS has
02:12:45 <hppavilion[1]> Files are in folders, folders can be in other folders
02:13:06 <hppavilion[1]> I'm going to rename that to FS infinity tree, actually
02:13:29 <pikhq> A directory is a file.
02:13:47 <pikhq> In my universe it is.
02:14:03 <pikhq> And my universe is POSIX.
02:15:27 <hppavilion[1]> Everything is in the same directory with different files: FS list
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02:49:01 <zzo38> I fixed my browser's HSTS support by changing the name of the header in libxul.so to contain a CRLF pair, so that it is impossible to match.
02:59:18 <zzo38> However, now HPKP doesn't work either, but the testing page also says that if it did work then you cannot bypass it; I do want to enable HPKP but make it bypassable, but to disable HSTS entirely.
03:00:38 <Sgeo> Why not bypassable HSTS (and not just "type in http:// or navigate there") rather than no HSTS?
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03:08:35 <zzo38> HSTS does not solve anything.
03:10:56 <Sgeo> It solves MITMer directing you to http:// of a site you visited before then incercepting, when the site in fact supports HTTPS
03:12:59 <zzo38> If you can see it is http:// then you can see what it is; make user-defined redirections if you want otherwise. If there are problem with cookies or whatever, well, my opinion no cookies and login and so on should cross protocols; HTTP and HTTPS should each have their own set of cookies.
03:13:16 <zzo38> They should also use different cookies if the port number changes, too.
03:14:18 <Sgeo> But cookies do cross protocols, sadly it's too late to change that. And even if they didn't, you have stronger phishing risks
03:15:56 <Sgeo> (Although I suppose that would require a user savvy enough to check the domain name but unsavvy enough to trust http. Although those users might exist because there are sites out there that are actually http-only)
03:17:40 <zzo38> You can set cookies to be HTTPS only, although a client can nevertheless be designed to implement cookies in this more strict way; ignore the security flag on cookies and instead always use whatever protocol the cookie is sent with.
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03:38:23 <zzo38> NoScript Lite doesn't work for me
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03:54:15 <oren> My site is http-only because I don't store visitor's personal information anyway
03:54:49 <oren> the only sites that nees https are those that have login and store sensitive information
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04:13:08 <zzo38> I don't store visitor's personal information either, and even if I did, HTTPS would not stop me from storing them
04:15:00 <ais523> zzo38: the idea's not to stop you storing them, but to stop other people taking copies of them / altering them while they're in transit to or from your site
04:19:17 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but still HTTPS won't stop the site you are connecting to from storing your information.
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04:25:18 <zzo38> It does stop intercepting, however it can be useful to intercept it yourself, so it should allow HTTPS over a plain HTTP proxy and the proxy would handle secure connections instead; you can run this proxy in the same LAN or even on the same computer for additional security, although a remote one might improve the speed if you have a slow computer.
04:38:49 <zzo38> I have made all sorts of hacks into Firefox in various places: the filesystem permissions, the SQLite database schemas, the about:config, the userChrome,js, and even hexediting the program binaries.
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04:57:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43599&oldid=43598 * Hppavilion1 * (+293) /* EsOS file system */ new section
05:17:28 <myname> zzo38: what hexediting?
05:27:46 <zzo38> I changed the string "strict-transport-security" in libxul.so by replacing two of the consecutive letters with a CRLF pair instead.
05:31:22 <zzo38> That seems the only way to disable HSTS
05:31:56 <ais523> zzo38: has HSTS caused problems for you? or do you just want to disable it out of principle?
05:33:42 <zzo38> I want to disable it because it is a bad idea.
05:34:10 <lifthrasiir> well, it is a bad idea made necessary for a bad existing design.
05:35:38 <zzo38> HPKP would make some sense if the user could override it. HSTS is just stupid though.
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06:03:00 <zzo38> hppavilion[1]: Files *must* be in folders, only one deep, is what TI-92 does
06:03:27 <zzo38> (Except for local variables)
06:04:03 <hppavilion[1]> Unfortunately, if there is any compilation of GUI project ideas, it's REALLY hard to find
06:05:04 <zzo38> I don't know. What kind of GUI are you using?
06:05:50 <zzo38> AmigaMML IDE, if you like that kind of stuff, is one kind of project I suppose
06:07:06 <zzo38> Yes, a GUI of a OS can be another idea
06:07:37 <hppavilion[1]> When I have a website, I'll format it properly and publish it
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06:45:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: do you mean an esoteric one?
06:46:16 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: ok, do you want an easy one or a hard one or a very hard one?
06:48:15 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: very hard one: a PDF viewer with interface that doesn't get in your way: controllable with keyboard and mouse such that you can hide all the toolbars and menus and such so they don't cover parts of the screen, preferably based on the xpdf backend as forked by okular, and most importantly: EASILY ADJUSTABLE GAMMA SETTING, per pdf, and possibly separately for text and images
06:48:39 <b_jonas> hppavilion[1]: possibly hack the missing parts of this into okular
06:50:34 <b_jonas> hard one: a raster image viewer with interface that doesn't get in your way, controllable with keyboard and mouse such that you can hide blah blah, adjustable gamma setting, and adjustable setting for how zoom is antialiased so you can get nearest neighbour or some more expensive interpolation,
06:51:16 <b_jonas> with a thumbnail view for all images, and if I specifically ask, it should be able to rotate photos by 90 degree and save the rotations in _a separate file_ rather than in the photos.
06:51:31 <b_jonas> image viewer with zooming should be a standard widget I think
06:52:09 <b_jonas> easy one? dunno, let me think. the problem with easy ones is that I just don't use GUIs for those.
06:52:38 <hppavilion[1]> It's a beginner's final project as a beginner sometimes
06:53:57 <b_jonas> oh btw, for both the image viewer and pdf viewer, I'd like the mouse panning speed customizable as a signed floating point number.
06:54:07 <b_jonas> because some people actually like reverse pan.
06:58:13 <b_jonas> I should write this down so I won't forget any feature when I write my letter to Father Christmas.
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07:06:52 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1V7Ewci21-4dNp3hzORuzljOpTJeim8Vb1-qnHhLzugk/edit?usp=sharing
07:07:18 <hppavilion[1]> I trust the people here enough to share that link for anyone to submit ideas, doable and otherwise.
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07:42:55 <zzo38> Why do you use Google Docs, it isn't very good
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07:43:27 <hppavilion[1]> Is there a better free collaborative online document editor I should know about?
07:44:07 <zzo38> MediaWiki I suppose
07:44:25 <hppavilion[1]> But this is just a draft I'm going to put on my website
07:45:13 <zzo38> Or use a FTP server
07:46:38 <hppavilion[1]> Well FTP isn't a very good way to transmit text like this, IMHO
07:48:50 <hppavilion[1]> When it can be made on a website, make it a website
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08:54:17 <fowl> google docs is awesome
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09:00:41 <ais523> my main issue with Google Docs is that it plays rather fast and loose with the HTML it uses internally, especially if you copy/paste from Word
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09:02:16 <fowl> Inter-suite compatibility is something I've never seen
09:02:42 <mroman> Can't we just use HTML for documents?
09:04:43 <ais523> HTML isn't restrictive enough
09:04:49 <ais523> and thus allows way too many ways to write the same thing
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09:09:40 <mroman> as long as it's rendered correctly why would that bother me?
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09:11:26 <ais523> mroman: because editing (especially collaborative editing) can easily make the formatting inconsistent in a way that's very difficult to fi
09:11:36 <ais523> (I know all this from personal experience)
09:11:39 <mroman> You mean WYISWYG editing?
09:11:53 <ais523> mroman: I mean editing via Google Docs specifically
09:12:10 <ais523> but that's due to the general issues of WYSIWYG editing of HTML
09:12:26 <ais523> especially if it allows inline styles but not separate CSS
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09:24:18 <zzo38> That is why you can use MediaWiki or even just plain text, if HTML isn't restrictive enough
09:25:09 <zzo38> For many kind of documents plain text works just fine, although for collaborative work it still help to have automatic changelogs
09:26:09 <mroman> From an architectural standpoint.... I think pyongyang looks amazing.
09:27:18 <mroman> at least the parts that are shown in this video.
09:33:46 <mroman> zzo38: How can I do bold blinking text in plaintext?
09:33:56 <mroman> You know, to get people's attention?
09:34:59 <mroman> Micosoft Word totally has Text Effects!
09:35:04 <mroman> (Or had. I'm not sure if it still does.)
09:36:05 <mroman> They removed it in 2013.
09:37:20 <mroman> `? word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
09:37:21 <HackEgo> word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.? ¯\(°_o)/¯
09:37:27 <mroman> `learn word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
09:37:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'word': word (Microsoft Word) was a text-editor for animated texts but not anymore.
09:39:51 <b_jonas> mroman: shouldn't that mention "winword" too somewhere? that's what it was called by default for some time
09:40:08 <b_jonas> I renamed it, but only so that I can run two versions at the same time.
09:49:42 <zzo38> mroman: In some case you don't need such thing, anyways if you print it out it is hard to blink.
09:50:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: What? but users do expect the printed versions to be animated too.
09:50:59 <b_jonas> at least if the internet stories about typical stupid users are true.
09:51:15 <zzo38> I am aware of that.
09:51:52 <Taneb> zzo38, what is the URL for your gopher server?
10:01:09 <mroman> well it's not microsoft's fault printers suck at printing animations.
10:01:31 <mroman> Word was just decades ahead of printers.
10:02:05 <mroman> I'm certain if printers were advanced enough Microsoft had done everything to make animations work on prints as well.
10:02:18 <mroman> You could have spinning word-arts!
10:03:39 <mroman> You could have had power-point effects on OHP!
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10:03:56 <mroman> with plastic foils that support animations.
10:04:17 <mroman> How do you call that thing in english?
10:05:16 <b_jonas> overhead projector transparent celluloid foil slide or whatever
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10:06:02 <b_jonas> apparently "transparencies"
10:06:21 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transparency_%28projection%29
10:07:09 <fizzie> I think they're called "cels" in the context of animation.
10:07:26 <fizzie> "A cel, short for celluloid, is a transparent sheet on which objects are drawn or painted for traditional, hand-drawn animation. Actual celluloid (consisting of cellulose nitrate and camphor) was used during the first half of the 20th century, but since it was flammable and dimensionally unstable it was largely replaced by cellulose acetate. With the advent of computer-assisted animation ...
10:07:32 <fizzie> ... production, the use of cels has been all but abandoned in major productions. Disney studios stopped using cels in 1990 when Computer Animation Production System (CAPS) replaced this element in their animation process."
10:08:31 <mroman> overlay transparencies
10:08:34 <fizzie> @tell boily It's not that, I'm afraid it'd alter fungot's PERSONALITY, because it's a whole different thing I'm using now to make them models.
10:08:35 <fungot> fizzie: did you *just* implement call/ cc in terms of lambda abstraction and application, too
10:08:38 <mroman> and move the ones that need moving
10:08:44 <mroman> there's a nice documentary about that on youtube
10:09:16 <fungot> fizzie: at least that's how i find it curious that this seemingly nonstandard extension is the default size?
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10:30:09 <mroman> fungot: Can you play the harp?
10:30:09 <fungot> mroman: really cool would be some defined database types... e.g. id like to mind.
10:30:32 <mroman> Meanwhile germany wants 48h weeks .
10:32:36 <Taneb> That's like only two days
10:32:45 <Taneb> What are they going to do with the other five!?
10:33:07 <ais523> Taneb: sleeping, eating, commute, leisure, I guess
10:33:27 <ais523> and sleeping again to make five
10:33:34 <Taneb> Oh, a 48h work week?
10:34:01 <Taneb> That's 9 to 5 six days a week!
10:34:31 <ais523> AIUI it's a common scam to try to persuade your workers that doing that's normal
10:35:07 <ais523> the EU has maximum work hours for this sort of reason (but unfortunately there are too many loopholes involved, e.g. in the UK it's possible to opt out, and businesses put you under a lot of pressure to do so)
10:35:09 <fizzie> A six-day work week *was* normal, right?
10:37:32 <ais523> although then it also tended to be limited by available daylight
10:37:43 <ais523> so eight hours every non-Sunday every month would be unusual
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10:57:54 <mroman> "Inappropriate key specification"
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11:06:38 <mroman> java.security.spec.InvalidKeySpecException: Inappropriate key specification: IOException: ObjectIdentifier() -- data isn't an object ID (tag = -96)
11:06:43 <mroman> well.. that's a little bit more detail :D
11:07:20 <boily> mrelloman. you're doing nasty java stuff. this is inappropriate.
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11:08:08 <mroman> java.security.spec.InvalidKeySpecException: Inappropriate key specification: IOException: DerInputStream.getLength(): lengthTag=127, too big.
11:12:01 <lambdabot> fizzie said 1h 3m 26s ago: It's not that, I'm afraid it'd alter fungot's PERSONALITY, because it's a whole different thing I'm using now to make them models.
11:12:14 <boily> @tell fizzie *gasp*!
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11:14:43 <mroman> I'm doing a p2p message networking system
11:14:50 <mroman> where you have to exchange public keys and stuff
11:14:55 <mroman> to verify each others identity
11:15:00 <mroman> every message is signed ;)
11:15:11 <mroman> right now pulbic keys can't be loaded :D
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11:25:27 <mroman> although this probably consumes a lot of CPU
11:25:31 <mroman> since it signs every single package :D
11:34:14 <mroman> java.security.SignatureException: invalid encoding for signature
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11:43:15 <mroman> ok. finally everything works
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11:53:23 <fizzie> mroman: So I can close all the bugs in our company bug tracker as fixed, then?
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11:56:06 <ais523> I had to pay for something over the phone recently, because there were technical problems with paying over the Internet (which I suspect were caused by the connection dropping at exactly the wrong moment)
11:56:22 <ais523> I asked them to send a receipt by email so that I had a record of the transaction
11:56:51 <ais523> they did so: it's a scanned-in copy of the physical paper receipt that was produced by their credit card reader
11:56:56 <ais523> somehow I find this hilarious
11:58:05 <fizzie> No wooden table, though?
11:58:30 <nortti> Sgeo: no idea, if you mean http://theevilliouschronicles.wikia.com/wiki/Seven_Crimes_and_Punishments_(story)
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11:58:46 <fizzie> I paid something with a debit card on a ferry, and they used one of those old-fashioned things where you put the card in and drag the handle back and worth and it copies the embossed numbers.
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11:59:03 <fizzie> Then it took 2-3 weeks to show up on the account.
11:59:18 <fizzie> I'm a bit surprised they accepted a debit card for that.
12:00:25 <ais523> fizzie: because it might not have had money in?
12:00:44 <fizzie> Well, that, and just in general, I associate those things with credit cards explicitly.
12:00:46 <ais523> I think most financial transactions rely on the principle of "most people are honest, and most people who aren't can be caught and sued for the money"
12:00:57 <olsner> I think debit cards are typically also credit cards
12:01:03 <ais523> in the UK I've known them to be used for cheque guarantee cards as well
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12:01:45 <fizzie> And the precursor to a debit card, a "Visa Electron" I used to have in Finland, was unusable in many places, because it was (at least supposedly) strictly online-only.
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12:02:01 <fizzie> [Repeating:] And the precursor to a debit card, a "Visa Electron" I used to have in Finland, was unusable in many places, because it was (at least supposedly) strictly online-only.
12:02:10 <ais523> olsner: at least in the UK, debit cards typically can't be used for purchases on credit unless you have an arranged overdraft, which you usually don't
12:02:36 <ais523> fizzie: I used to have a Visa Electron; it was mostly only intended to be used in cash machines
12:02:47 <ais523> although some websites did accept it
12:02:54 <fizzie> Well. Also at POS terminals in shops.
12:02:58 <ais523> shops didn't (at least the only one I tried to use it at didn't), so I had to find a cash machine nearby
12:03:16 <fizzie> At least in Finland "normal" shops did/do accept it.
12:03:30 <fizzie> Although it's been somewhat phased out in favor of Visa Debit.
12:03:38 <ais523> Visa Debit seems to be accepted everywhere
12:03:52 <fizzie> I think they still have Electron cards for young people etc.
12:04:25 <fizzie> I have a debit/credit card too, and sometimes the people don't ask, just assume debit or credit.
12:04:45 <fizzie> And/or ignore what you tell them.
12:05:50 <mroman> just make sure you add a "won't fix" label
12:05:57 <mroman> or "works for me you dipshit"
12:06:30 <fizzie> We have a "won't fix, intended behavior" status.
12:06:43 <mroman> good, then abuse the hell out of that.
12:07:15 <mroman> I have a "not a bug, feature" label
12:07:24 <mroman> and "not a bug, marketing reasons"
12:07:45 <mroman> "crashes randomly every week" ==> "not a bug, marketing reasons"
12:08:06 <mroman> (aka otherwise nobody would buy the next version coming out next month)
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13:01:36 <oren> I have a debit card and a credit card, which are both green, with a Visa symbol, a +Plus and an Interac sysmbol on them. it is confusing, because they are only distinguished by a tiny word that says "credit" on one and "debit" on the other.
13:08:39 <b_jonas> oren: yeah. it's even worse about virtual cards.
13:09:12 <mroman> It's more fun if you have a reddit card too
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13:28:11 <mroman> fungot: Do you have a credit card?
13:28:11 <fungot> mroman: it was in here a few weeks while waiting for the ehlo answer, whether he supports fnord and so i do
13:30:19 <mroman> Mail servers with fnord support?
13:31:57 <fizzie> fungot: What's the RFC for that?
13:31:57 <fungot> fizzie: short-term versus long-term " currently in php but i could install run?' using fnord.
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13:59:02 <mroman> If I were a malware developper
13:59:07 <mroman> I'd use images to transport malware
13:59:19 <mroman> and then extract the code dynamically through javascript from the image
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14:00:54 <Hoolootwo> the problem is that javascript is supposed to not run malware
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14:02:55 <mroman> Any suffiecently advanced malware is indistinguishable from non-malware".
14:03:52 <ais523> mroman: it might be distingushable from obvious non-malware, though
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14:04:39 <mroman> Any sufficiently advanced program is malware.
14:04:42 <mroman> that's probably better.
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14:05:40 <Hoolootwo> yeah that's truer than I'm willing to admit
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14:09:26 <b_jonas> Q: What is perl useful for? A: Writing a syntax highliter for perl code using regular expressions.
14:12:11 <ais523> Perl is really hard to syntax-highlight
14:12:25 <ais523> so far Kate holds the record out of programs I've tried, but even it screws up sometims
14:12:57 <ais523> (or, well, Perl is TC to syntax-highlight because you can write code that runs the instant it's parsed and can change the parsing of the rest of the file as an effect)
14:13:35 <b_jonas> yes, or even code that's read twice and parsed differently in the two parses
14:14:00 <int-e> ooh, polyglot hilighting.
14:14:08 <b_jonas> I don't care, because I don't syntax highlight anything, and I think syntax highlighting is a bad idea in genreal.
14:14:09 <APic> mroman: Check out the „American Fuzzy Lops“
14:14:20 <APic> mroman: Semiautomatic JPeg-Fuzzing
14:14:21 <b_jonas> If you can't read the code without help from the computer, then the code is written unclear.
14:14:42 <mroman> b_jonas: I disagree with that.
14:14:45 <b_jonas> It's the unclear code that should be fixed, not the highlighting.
14:15:02 <mroman> visual cues help you read code faster
14:15:11 <b_jonas> I've heared some counter-arguments, like how it helps catch errors when you write the code, or stuff.
14:15:19 <mroman> for example highlighting return statements makes you see them much better
14:15:34 <mroman> and yes, it shows you syntax errors before you hit "compile"
14:15:51 <mroman> also auto-complete really increases productivity
14:16:02 <mroman> but that's not really that much related to syntax highlighting itself
14:16:24 <b_jonas> Auto-complete is just horrible. It makes people type a word once, with a typo, and then copy the typo everywhere in the code, and they never read it.
14:16:25 <mroman> but I like editors that can highlight and format code automatically
14:16:35 <b_jonas> Then I have to replace the typo globally.
14:16:36 <mroman> b_jonas: That does happen, yes :)
14:16:46 <mroman> that's why eclipse has a "rename"
14:16:50 <mroman> which renames all references as well.
14:17:13 <b_jonas> As for "before you compile", I think that's distracting, when I write code I want to concentrate on the code I write, I can fix typos in a later pass.
14:17:26 <b_jonas> I don't want the editor interrupting me with the typos that I'll find when compiling.
14:17:31 <mroman> but otherwise you'd need to have the documentation of all the things open somewhere
14:17:37 <mroman> and then switch between eclipse and the documentation
14:17:46 <mroman> and that is just annoying.
14:18:19 <b_jonas> Well sure, requesting documentation (or matching parenthesis) with a keystroke is fine, just don't distract me with that info while I'm writing stuff.
14:18:43 <mroman> matching parenthesis sucks :)
14:18:48 <mroman> I hate when eclipse does that
14:19:12 <mroman> I'd prefer if it had a command that "closes open parentheses"
14:19:31 <mroman> so you can write things like Math.abs(Math.min(a,b and then hit that command
14:19:49 <mroman> when you use auto-complete sometimes eclipse will automatically insert arguments
14:20:00 <mroman> you wrote Math.abs(foo);
14:20:07 <mroman> then you want to change that to Math.sqrt
14:20:12 <mroman> and it will result in Math.sqrt(p)foo;
14:20:20 <mroman> that's somewhat annoying sometimes.
14:20:42 <b_jonas> I need a command that jumps to the matching parenthesis to the one under the cursor, bound to a keystroke. Luckily, most sane editors have this already.
14:24:29 <mroman> ToDO before I die: Write a LISP compiler
14:24:33 <mroman> I still haven't done that
14:27:32 <mroman> Alright, I'll do it now.
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14:29:57 <HackEgo> poland/Połąńd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes.
14:30:08 <b_jonas> mroman: can you tell a bit more about the goals of what lisp compiler you want?
14:32:08 <mroman> I don't know. I just wanted to write a compiler for some restricted LISP-Dialect
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14:47:23 <mroman> http://codepad.org/RDtFNClF
14:52:31 <mroman> do I need a garbage collector?
14:52:44 <fizzie> No, just let it pile up.
14:52:51 <mroman> No I meant something else
14:53:10 <fizzie> Require the programmer to call 'free' for every 'cons'.
14:53:38 <mroman> (cons (foo) (list 1 2)) you can free the (list 1 2) after the cons call
14:54:08 <shachaf> Well, I guess you can free whatever you want whenever you want.
14:54:37 <mroman> oh wait that's not cons
14:55:07 <mroman> Reference counting is usually easiest
14:55:11 <mroman> but it doesn't work in all cases
14:55:24 <mroman> the question is: Do you need a case where it doesn't work?
14:55:42 <Taneb> Cyclic data structures, right?
14:56:05 <shachaf> Declare them undefined behavior. Done.
14:56:06 <mroman> That's what I'm pointing at, yes.
14:56:28 <fizzie> If it's good enough for Perl, it would be good enough for you.
14:56:30 <mroman> they are not required for turing completeness?
14:56:41 <mroman> and most data structures arent cyclig
14:56:46 <shachaf> Turing completeness is scow.
14:57:01 <shachaf> You should make your lisp thing not be Turing complete.
14:57:02 <Taneb> mroman, they are not required for turing completeness
14:57:06 <shachaf> Turing complete things aren't reasonable.
14:58:05 <mroman> lisp doesn't have references wimre?
14:58:13 <mroman> mutating a list always results in a new one
14:58:23 <mroman> if you always copy everything you don't need a gc anyway
14:58:48 <Taneb> If you always copy everything you need a gc all the more
14:58:55 <Taneb> Because you build up garbage very quickly
14:59:01 <mroman> you copy and free immediately
14:59:11 <mroman> append would just create a new list
14:59:20 <mroman> copy the elements of the two lists into that new list
14:59:25 <mroman> and then frees the two original lists
14:59:29 <mroman> then you don't need no gc
14:59:36 <mroman> it'll be horribly slow though
14:59:40 <mroman> I don't want horribly slow
14:59:45 <mroman> alright. Reference counting it is.
15:01:02 <mroman> Lisp is usually copy-on-write
15:01:46 <shachaf> It'll be correct and simple.
15:01:48 <mroman> i'll guess I make append and append!
15:02:12 <mroman> that's even more horrible
15:02:14 <shachaf> You were going to make stop-the-world reference counting.
15:02:36 <shachaf> GC and reference counting are the same thing.
15:02:48 <shachaf> http://researcher.watson.ibm.com/researcher/files/us-bacon/Bacon04Unified.pdf
15:03:11 <mroman> use reference counting
15:03:17 <mroman> and then from time to time the GC with cycle detection kicks in
15:03:21 <shachaf> Except they find the greatest and least fixed points.
15:03:23 <shachaf> http://www.pvk.ca/Blog/2012/02/19/fixed-points-and-strike-mandates/
15:04:02 <shachaf> A moment ago you were talking about copying the entire heap with every instruction.
15:04:23 <shachaf> (Which is pretty much what a GC would do, except less frequently.)
15:09:28 <oerjan> <mroman> lisp doesn't have references wimre? <-- some lisps have mutable cons cells
15:11:14 <fizzie> I guess making it really unpronouncable is one way of warning people away from it.
15:11:39 <fizzie> Scheme would call that set-car! with the scary exclamation point.
15:12:39 <ais523> does it create references or copies of its argument into the cons cell in question?
15:12:51 <ais523> suddenly, it starts mattering
15:13:01 <ais523> (with references you could place a cons cell inside itself)
15:13:14 <shachaf> <mroman> i'll guess I make append and append!
15:13:22 <shachaf> it sounds like this is already the plan
15:13:39 <fizzie> I'm not sure, the plan seemed to be changing every second.
15:13:40 <Phantom__Hoover> append! is for when you're really enthusiastic about your appending
15:13:44 <shachaf> RPLACA and NCONC are such good names
15:14:31 <shachaf> every common lisp name is great
15:15:05 <fizzie> ais523: http://sprunge.us/eGfb
15:15:29 <fizzie> I think some implementations would pretty-print that a little better.
15:16:40 <ais523> for some reason, it never crossed my mind that it'd give you an infinite string of open parentheses
15:16:50 <ais523> it's like the opposite of Lisp in a way
15:17:18 <lambdabot> "\"\\\"\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\"\\\\\\\\\\\\\...
15:17:40 <fizzie> It makes sense. You start at t; it's a cons cell, so you print '(' and then look at the car; that's t, a cons cell, so you print '(' and then look at the car; ...
15:18:25 <ais523> fizzie: oh, it makes perfect sense
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15:18:33 <ais523> I just hadn't realised that that's what would have happened until I saw it
15:19:38 <fizzie> I don't have a mzscheme (what was it now, racket?) implementation here, I think it should've printed something like #0=(#0# 2).
15:19:52 <fizzie> Or something like that, I forget the exact syntax.
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15:21:55 <Taneb> I am not sure that Racket has set-cons!
15:22:17 <fizzie> It's one of those Schemes with immutable cons cells.
15:22:30 <fizzie> I think it had something like 'mcons' for mutable cells, and some pair of setters.
15:22:49 <fizzie> mcons, mcar, mcdr, set-mcar! and set-mcdr!, apparently.
15:22:55 <fizzie> And mpair? as the predicate.
15:23:19 <fizzie> That's not how it was when it was still called MzScheme, though.
15:24:09 <shachaf> I think it switched to immutable cons by default before renaming to Racket.
15:24:40 <fizzie> It also means you have to jump through hoops to get cyclic lists out of the immutable pairs.
15:25:08 <Taneb> > (define t (mcons 1 2))
15:25:25 <fizzie> Huh, I got it (almost) right.
15:25:47 <shachaf> Taneb: That was an interesting error for the first thing.
15:25:58 <shachaf> Looks like a lambdabot bug.
15:26:03 <lambdabot> Not in scope: ‘define’ Not in scope: ‘mcons’
15:26:03 <lambdabot> ‘cons’ (imported from Control.Lens),
15:26:08 <shachaf> I think I've seen it before.
15:26:16 <fizzie> I think it would've been #0=(#0# . 2) before the mcons thing, actually; forgot it was a pair, not a list.
15:28:15 <oerjan> <fizzie> That's not how it was when it was still called MzScheme, though. <-- i thought racket was PLT scheme?
15:29:24 <shachaf> I thought it was called Dr. Scheme.
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15:29:35 <fizzie> oerjan: It was MzScheme before that.
15:29:45 <fizzie> MzScheme for the engine, and Dr. Scheme for the GUI, or some-such.
15:29:54 <fizzie> Then it went PLT, then it went Racket. Or that's at least my recollection.
15:30:40 <fizzie> Or maybe it's a branding thing.
15:30:47 <fizzie> The company was PLT from the get-go, anyway.
15:30:57 <fizzie> But "mzscheme" was the command-line thing you ran.
15:30:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: I thought it was PLT for the fancy system, MzScheme for the important scheme interpreter part,
15:31:03 <shachaf> I think MzScheme was part of PLT Scheme.
15:31:05 <b_jonas> and then it became Racket as the new branding
15:31:22 <shachaf> In the end it's all the same software.
15:32:01 <fizzie> DrScheme was maybe the teaching-oriented programming environment.
15:32:32 <b_jonas> anyway, the important part is MzScheme
15:32:33 <fizzie> The old PLT pages say "MzScheme is the name of the core virtual machine for PLT Scheme" and "DrScheme is an interactive, integrated, graphical programming environment that is included with PLT Scheme".
15:32:39 <oerjan> <shachaf> what now <-- based on my view from another channel, someone possibly just klined ro*
15:33:02 <fizzie> And MrEd is the thing DrScheme is built on, right.
15:33:06 <oerjan> i'm sure you can confirm or deny that
15:33:19 <shachaf> oerjan: i was talking about the many names of plt scheme
15:33:45 <fizzie> http://plt-scheme.org/software/ lists the components.
15:33:47 <shachaf> But I see several ro* who aren't klined.
15:33:52 <int-e> 17:29:24 --- rodgort has quit [K-Lined]
15:33:54 <fizzie> (If you dismiss the Racket ads, anyway.)
15:34:16 <int-e> (is there a reason not to mention that name?)
15:34:35 <shachaf> int-e: I think oerjan is saying that everyone matching /^ro.*/ was klined.
15:35:25 <b_jonas> maybe it's a botnet connecting with all ro* names at first
15:35:31 <shachaf> also i didn't know oerjan was in any other channels
15:35:55 <fizzie> Yes, let's focus on what's important. Such a lack of channel loyalty.
15:36:02 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm in ##nomic, where Roujo just got klined at the same time
15:36:15 <b_jonas> I've seen stuff like that, they connect twenty bots all with similar names, they start to spam, people ban them with a pattern and rejoice thinking they won, bot owner modifies pattern and connects twenty new bots, repeat
15:36:16 <fowl> I see an ro* in a channel who isnt klined
15:36:28 <ais523> definitely ro* people who weren't k-lined
15:36:33 <oerjan> and my nomic loyalty is far older than my esolang loyalty, so there. although it's somewhat lapsed.
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15:37:19 <b_jonas> I agree, I see ro* nicks connected
15:37:24 <b_jonas> so not all of them are k-lined
15:37:31 <fowl> The one i see is not logged in either
15:37:43 <fowl> Er authenticated
15:39:50 -!- rodgort has joined.
15:40:26 <b_jonas> Let me note that there's at least one freenode staffer logged in right now whose nick matches ro*
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15:41:22 <oerjan> y'all people cannot convince me with your stupid evidence
15:42:01 -!- roejan has joined.
15:42:44 <shachaf> now i can't tell which overlord is evil
15:43:02 <oerjan> shachaf: i may have to do a ban_jos if this escalates
15:43:05 <ais523> shachaf: roejan has a suspiciously similar hostname to b_jonas
15:43:15 <oerjan> ais523: all ahead of you
15:43:28 <shachaf> oerjan's pun was better, though.
15:43:36 <ais523> oerjan: that's not fair, I had to type my sentence
15:43:44 <ais523> also I wasn't making a pun
15:43:52 <ais523> and oerjan is one of the few people who's allowed to make /good/ puns
15:43:56 <ais523> normally they're supposed to be bad
15:44:11 <shachaf> oerjan's pun didn't need to be very good to be better than no pun at all.
15:44:29 <shachaf> b_jonas: you'll rue the month you decided to impersonate oerjan
15:44:45 <shachaf> (that's an example of a worse pun)
15:45:24 <ais523> well, if you get a reputation for everything you say being a pun
15:45:32 <ais523> eventually you can just say a non sequitur
15:45:37 <ais523> and everyone assumes it's a pun but it's so subtle they can't spot it
15:45:53 <roejan> shachaf: sorry, "roen" was already in use, I didn't have much cohice
15:46:09 <shachaf> ais523: oerjan's puns may be good, but are they fun?
15:46:22 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.xkcd.com/559/
15:46:38 <ais523> shachaf: that's the first pun in rot-13 I've seen
15:47:56 <oerjan> <ais523> normally they're supposed to be bad <-- wait, what, this changes everything!
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15:48:57 <oerjan> if i say enough non sequiturs ais523 will sure quit
15:49:20 <ais523> that isn't a non sequitur though
15:49:24 <ais523> also I'm planning to quit soon anyway
15:50:47 <oerjan> shachaf: you are so easily overwhelmed
15:50:57 <shachaf> oerjan: i wouldn't say i'm overwhelmed
15:50:59 <oerjan> finally Roujo returned
15:51:07 <shachaf> http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?multiverseid=378429
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15:52:19 <oerjan> `` rot13 rue # i don't think i'm getting this
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15:52:44 <shachaf> oerjan: now i can't tell whether that's a hidden pun
15:53:25 <ais523> oerjan: if it is in fact us trolling you rather than vice versa, you might be looking at the wrong line
15:54:06 -!- roejan has quit (Ping timeout: 240 seconds).
15:54:51 <oerjan> now i'm relieved, i thought shachaf actually meant that literally.
15:55:46 <oerjan> or to quote the ancients, furrfu
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15:58:34 <GoToTell> no, but it shows up in certain places. sheesh.
15:58:49 * mauris notices scary concentrations of belgians
15:59:21 <oerjan> shachaf: well but "asheesh" didn't ring any bell...
15:59:35 <mauris> (hallo|bonjour|guten tag), GoToTell!
15:59:40 <shachaf> oerjan: it's a p. common name
15:59:52 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashish -- apparently this variant is mentioned in India's national anthem
16:00:04 <shachaf> also that page says "it's" instead of "its"
16:00:13 <shachaf> but i'm trying not to tell you about those things anymore
16:00:33 <mauris> yeah. it's good looking at people's IRC hostnames and deducing that they live a 2 hour drive away, tops
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16:00:36 <oerjan> shachaf: ic, it's not common where i've been previously acquainted
16:00:54 <ais523> mauris: how long does it take to drive to the UK from where you are?
16:00:54 <shachaf> I don't know how common it is.
16:01:01 <ais523> I'm actually confused trying to work it out
16:01:11 <ais523> partly because I suck at north European geography
16:01:18 <ais523> and partly because I'm not quite sure how to count the ferry/tunnel
16:03:45 <mauris> shorter than i thought: https://goo.gl/maps/khNJf
16:04:01 <shachaf> ais523: Did you publish your thesis?
16:04:23 <ais523> shachaf: I actually sent the finished manuscript to the printers today
16:04:35 <ais523> they'll have the printed versions finished on Friday
16:05:03 <ais523> I'll submit the electronic versions then; I don't know when they'll be printed
16:05:08 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:05:25 <fizzie> They'll print them, scan them, and put the scans online.
16:05:36 <ais523> fizzie: nah, they were sensible and asked me for a PDF
16:05:45 <mauris> wow, cool stuff, what's the thesis about?
16:05:51 <ais523> I have one with hyperlinks and clickable internal cross-references and accessibility tagging and the like
16:05:55 <ais523> mauris: finite-state type systems
16:06:07 -!- heroux has joined.
16:06:28 <fizzie> ais523: I don't have one like that, because our thesis series template didn't want to play nice with hyperref. But maybe I can fix that later.
16:06:33 <ais523> i.e. languages in which programs provably use only finite memory
16:06:49 <ais523> fizzie: I made my own thesis series template; our regulations just say "such and such text X/Y distance from the margins"
16:07:14 <ais523> took me a while of messing around with minipages to get that right
16:07:26 <fizzie> We have a fully-fledged thing with lots of crufty stuff.
16:07:53 <fizzie> I'm sure it's not mandatory, but it seemed like the sensible choice.
16:07:54 <ais523> pretty much our entire process assumes you're using Word, without actively stating it anywhere
16:08:00 <ais523> and being open for other editors in theory
16:08:10 <ais523> when I do use a different editor (LyX, in my case), it gets a little confusing
16:08:41 <fizzie> There are only four begin/end minipage pairs in the .cls file.
16:09:57 <ais523> wow this is a major bug: https://github.com/dotnet/coreclr/issues/1296
16:10:04 <ais523> broken TCO in .NET 4.6
16:10:13 <ais523> meaning that parameter values can change silently, and only in release builds
16:10:27 <ais523> I'm not sure I understand the theory of doing all debugging without optimization, then using optimization only for a release build
16:10:53 <ais523> because bugs that are only exposed by optimization then won't be caught by your tests
16:11:12 <mauris> that does sound, not ideal
16:13:06 <shachaf> mauris: 3.5 hours is not all that far
16:13:41 <MDude> I would have thought debugging would be done last, and optimization only saved for after all other non-debugging changes.
16:14:07 <ais523> I actually like to do test builds at high optimization levels if I can
16:14:24 <ais523> because you get better warnings, and UB is more likely to break in a visible way
16:15:05 <fizzie> I would have thought it'd be obvious that the build you test (at least for some largeish fraction of testing) is the build you'll be shipping.
16:15:41 <ais523> so many people test at -O0 and ship at -O2 or -O3
16:15:49 <Jafet> Well, there's debugging, there's testing, and then there's end-user testing.
16:15:57 <ais523> in NH4 I test at -Og on the Linux side, and I test at release settings on the Windows side
16:16:04 <MDude> Yeah. I just meant that if you're going to do optimization later, it'd make sense to still have debugging later.
16:16:04 <Jafet> I suppose people might confuse those things.
16:16:12 <ais523> (my release settings include -g, to increase the chance I get useful bug reports)
16:16:30 <MDude> But I don't think every software development team does everything in the same kind sof stages.
16:17:40 <MDude> Also, what does Uwe Boll have to do with this and how can code make him visibly break?
16:19:24 <MDude> Yeah I just have no idea what I'm talking about then.
16:20:12 <MDude> And alaos ocnfusing manual and automatic optimization.
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16:21:04 <Jafet> I suppose UB could summon Uwe Boll, but only if you're a really bad person.
16:21:11 -!- ais523 has joined.
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16:23:19 <oerjan> <MDude> Also, what does Uwe Boll have to do with this and how can code make him visibly break? <-- i'm sorry i don't get the pun twh
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16:23:40 <MDude> I just wans't sure what UB stood for.
16:23:56 <ais523> oh, UB = undefined behaviour
16:24:07 <ais523> it's a pretty commonly seen phrase among C programmers, also in #esoteric
16:24:50 <Jafet> How many other languages use the term (or an equivalent term)?
16:25:42 <ais523> all the languages which have the concept use it, I think
16:25:50 <ais523> but many languages intentionally avoid the concept
16:25:57 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Undefined_behavior
16:26:12 <shachaf> UB could also be blue-black.
16:26:39 <oerjan> istr there are some people who wouldn't mind Uwe Boll visibly breaking
16:27:34 <ais523> anyway, I'm surprised that Uwe Boll comes up in conversation sufficiently often to be worth abbreviating
16:28:23 <shachaf> ais523: Do you know if there are statistics about color choices in limited M:tG games?
16:28:41 <shachaf> In particular the variance of different color combinations in drafts, and that sort of thing.
16:28:43 <oerjan> hm people with only two words in their name probably are less likely to get an abbreviation.
16:28:49 <shachaf> Or maybe data to measure these things from?
16:28:56 <Jafet> Well, UB is special in some sense because once UB ever appears (even in your future, not just present, I think), you can no longer rely on anything working ever again. The same could be said about undefined behaviour, too.
16:29:21 <ais523> shachaf: I know that the playtesters do them internally
16:29:28 <ais523> however, color balance in drafts is not normally a useful measure
16:29:38 <ais523> because it's exactly balanced because every card has to be picked by someone
16:30:06 <ais523> you could check color balance of decks that are actually played, but even then draft's self-correcting because worse colours tend to be more open
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16:32:47 <oerjan> `le/rn uwe boll/Uwe Boll is the undefined behavior of cinematography.
16:34:24 <shachaf> ais523: I'd like a large data set of real mtg limited games to look at, but I doubt a good one is easily obtainable.
16:35:07 <ais523> shachaf: apparently Wizards have asked people with access to that sort of data (like StarCityGames) to not make it public, in order to slow down the rate at which formats are broken
16:36:15 <shachaf> ais523: The situation with sealed is pretty different from draft, and would be interesting to know too.
16:36:55 <ais523> shachaf: this is actually why most Wizards internal playtests are sealed
16:37:08 <ais523> I'm not sure if anyone collects that data, though; most large sealed tournaments are casual
16:40:13 <shachaf> ais523: I'm sure mtgo collects it.
16:40:50 <ais523> mtgo's incompetent enough that maybe it doesn't
16:41:29 <shachaf> All that data would be very helpful to them in designing new sets, though, I imagine.
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16:44:44 <ais523> shachaf: bear in mind that this is the game that failed during its most important tournament of the year, and lost all its data about the state of the tournament at that point in the process
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17:07:48 <HackEgo> U+270A RAISED FIST \ UTF-8: e2 9c 8a UTF-16BE: 270a Decimal: ✊ \ ✊ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F44A FISTED HAND SIGN \ UTF-8: f0 9f 91 8a UTF-16BE: d83ddc4a Decimal: 👊 \ 👊 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
17:08:11 <HackEgo> tar/The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf
17:10:22 <fowl> I didnt know wisdoms had to be true
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17:14:09 <HackEgo> nethack/<Jessicatz> you play too much nethack when: you look down both sides of the corridor, start to sweat and then realize you're looking at your email address
17:19:06 <zzo38> The command is "tar c", "tar t", or "tar x", although there are other options too
17:21:48 <zzo38> (Those three are the only options I have used though)
17:23:26 <b_jonas> some useful ones are: f = filename of tarball; v = print files as extracted or compressed, or print more than filenames for listing; z = pack to gzip; j = pack to bzip2; J = pack to xz; plus some more complicated ones for when you want to control list of files, I think they're -I listfile --null --no-recurse
17:25:00 <b_jonas> these days I try to copy files with rsync -tve "sudo -u" someuser:source dest instead of sudo -u someuser tar c source | tar xvC dest
17:25:27 <b_jonas> oh yeah, another important switch I use is: C = filenames except for name of tarball is relative to this directory
17:25:53 <zzo38> You can use pipes and do not need most of the commands it provides.
17:26:29 <zzo38> If I want the files inside of the archive in a different directory I can just switch to that directory.
17:26:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, and you can (cd foo && make) instead of make -C foo
17:27:03 <b_jonas> but it's still convenient enough that I use it a lot
17:27:50 <b_jonas> also, if foo is a directory you can't even execute to, compare (sudo -u someuser tar cC foo .) to (sudo -u someuser sh -c 'cd foo && tar c .')
17:28:12 <b_jonas> switch is there for a good reason
17:28:46 <b_jonas> basically I think cd should be a convenience thing, and you can use absolute paths if you want most of the time. this doesn't work with tar:
17:28:55 <mauris> you play too much nethack when: that nethack joke becomes profoundly unfunny for you :(
17:29:37 <b_jonas> because it doesn't (usually) rewrite filenames between the file system and the tarball, so if you want a file to be named ./bar in the tarball, you have to cd to its directory or else use the -C option (which does that)
17:29:51 <zzo38> Some programs do not need any command-line arguments at all; AmigaMML currently ignores any it may be given.
17:31:02 <shachaf> zzo38: If a program doesn't need command-line arguments at all, I prefer that it gives an error if it gets any.
17:31:18 <zzo38> shachaf: Yes, that might be better, but the current version does not.
17:31:19 <b_jonas> shachaf: except for true and false and : which shouldn't do that
17:31:30 <b_jonas> shachaf: there's the contentious question on what true --help should do
17:31:48 <shachaf> zzo38: I've done a lot of "program input" instead of "cat input | program" where I wish the program had failed.
17:32:04 <zzo38> b_jonas: As far as I am concerned, it should do nothing
17:32:05 <b_jonas> and also what false --help
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17:32:20 <zzo38> b_jonas: And false --help should fail.
17:33:04 <shachaf> I don't care about true --help and false --help
17:33:10 <shachaf> I slightly care about echo --help
17:33:24 <b_jonas> there's an underlying problem that people aren't even sure what foo --help should do in general: should it exit with success or failure status, and should it print help to stdout or stderr (or depending on isatty results)
17:33:26 <mauris> bash is a bit of a hack, huh
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17:34:07 <zzo38> For help you can just use a man page
17:34:17 <b_jonas> in the end, implementations agree in that true --help should exit success, and false --help should exit failure, but they differ in what they print
17:34:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: Well, yes that is one way too I suppose
17:35:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: man page? ok, how about true --version
17:35:12 <b_jonas> or does that give no useful information because who cares about the version of true?
17:35:27 <zzo38> b_jonas: That program doesn't need a version number
17:36:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: note that --version customarily prints the license information for programs where just invoking it without argument doesn't,
17:36:24 <b_jonas> and some licenses may require that the binary should be able to give a notice about license informatoin
17:36:33 <b_jonas> so that you know that it uses code by the reagents of whatever
17:37:00 <b_jonas> but there's still a case for saying that screw it, true and false can ignore it as long as the other programs in coreutils or other builtins in bash do tell you that info
17:37:14 <b_jonas> or you can just make /bin/true and /bin/false public domain
17:38:05 <b_jonas> echo is different because it already must handle at least _some_ switches
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17:38:32 <zzo38> I suppose yes that it can be useful for AmigaMML to display error in case any unrecognized switches are given, since even though there are no recognized one now, in future it is possible that later version might add switches to output debugging information for use with a IDE, or whatever
17:38:36 <b_jonas> plus I think echo genuinely has to be different between the shell version and the /bin/echo or something? I don't follow, it's complicated
17:39:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: it could display a non-fatal warning
17:39:50 <zzo38> That could be a possible too I suppose
17:41:16 <zzo38> Currently though what it does is, it reads MML code from stdin, writes out a MOD or XM to stdout, and displays the number of rows emitted per channel on stderr. In case of error it will display an error message to stderr, write nothing to stdout, and a nonzero exit code.
17:43:34 <zzo38> To create a IDE for AmigaMML, I am not exactly sure which options would be useful to add
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19:12:41 <mauris> the sams book too! are those the ones that promise to teach you C++ exponentially faster over time, and we're down to 10 minutes
19:13:02 <mauris> http://www.amazon.com/Sams-Teach-Yourself-Minutes-Edition/dp/0672324253 mmm
19:14:32 <Slereah__> Why would I want to learn C++ in any amount of time, though
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19:55:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43600&oldid=42122 * 70.185.102.142 * (-101) /* Keywords */
19:58:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Doorspace]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43601&oldid=40970 * 174.236.84.154 * (-1) /* Introduction */
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20:22:08 <Melvar> Today’s result: In Idris, every Monad is also a monadic value!
20:30:34 <Melvar> ( do x <- List; y <- Stream; return $ Either x y
20:30:34 <idris-bot> \i => Either (List i) (Stream i) : Type -> Type
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20:49:28 <mauris> @tell fizzie what does finnish "liemme" mean?
20:50:10 <fizzie> mauris: It's kind of hard. I think it might be a first-person plural potential case of the verb "be".
20:50:31 <nortti> mauris: something like "we probably are"
20:50:45 <fizzie> Yes, or "we might be".
20:51:31 <mauris> aha. google translate was being useless about it for some reason, but that makes sense!
20:51:42 <fizzie> The "be" verb has a rather nonstandard potential form.
20:51:46 <mauris> how does anyone handle finnish though.
20:52:11 <fizzie> I think "lienemme" would also be a valid way to say it, and in fact that's what's the first-person plural potential in the table at https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/olla#Conjugation
20:52:35 <fizzie> (But there's a French wiktionary page that uses "liemme" for the same thing.)
20:53:30 <fizzie> The potential mood for verbs is overall pretty rarely used.
20:53:55 <fizzie> Unless you're being deliberately fancy, or just naturally so.
20:54:47 <mauris> oh, is it like an archaic/poetic thing? this is from värttinä lyrics, so that'd make sense
20:55:10 <fizzie> Well, a little bit. It's not *that* archaic, you can still see it in a newspaper and it doesn't necessarily feel weird.
20:57:29 <fizzie> But you'd certainly see it written more often than spoken.
20:57:46 <fizzie> Er, I guess you wouldn't normally *see* it spoken ever, but...
20:59:03 <fizzie> In related news, the bus this morning had a sign that said approximately: "Do not speak to or obstruct the driver's vision while --", and I couldn't help wondering how you'd speak to the driver's vision.
21:03:20 <Hoolootwo> perhaps the driver has synesthesia
21:09:02 <coppro> Melvar: you've made me see things I can't unsee
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21:10:59 <Melvar> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return (x, y)
21:10:59 <idris-bot> \i => (List i, Either (List i) i) : Type -> (Type, Type)
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21:11:36 <Melvar> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ the Type (x, y)
21:11:36 <idris-bot> \i => (List i, Either (List i) i) : Type -> Type
21:12:33 <int-e> > map (do x <- (+1); y <- (+2); return (x*y)) [0..]
21:12:34 <lambdabot> [2,6,12,20,30,42,56,72,90,110,132,156,182,210,240,272,306,342,380,420,462,50...
21:15:33 <int-e> coppro: is the reader monad really so much worse on the type level than on the value level?
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21:31:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43602&oldid=43565 * Rottytooth * (+235) added question
21:33:35 <int-e> oh will you look at that, there was an actual GG comic last Friday...
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21:56:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 272130Z 16013KT 15SM BKN040CB BKN240 27/21 A2991 RMK CB5CI2 WSHFT 2115 CB E SLP126 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
21:57:25 <boily> rain rain rain, it shall raaaaain ♪
21:57:58 <lambdabot> LOWI 272150Z AUTO VRB02KT 9999 FEW090 16/13 Q1012
21:59:01 <int-e> great summer weather. (max. 25 today, somewhat rainy)
22:00:16 <boily> int-ello. is it generally humid in Austria?
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22:00:58 <int-e> I don't know about Austria in general. Innsbruck is actually fairly dry overall. I welcome the rain.
22:01:53 -!- mauris has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:02:55 <int-e> (I don't like heat very much.)
22:03:11 -!- oerjan has joined.
22:03:39 <boily> same about not supporting heat.
22:04:49 <oerjan> we only support 0 K, for best efficiency
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22:07:30 <int-e> hmm, 904mm rain/year ... actually that's more than I thought.
22:07:35 <Melvar> oerjan: Today’s result: In Idris, every Monad is also a monadic value!
22:08:21 <Melvar> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ the Type (x, y)
22:08:21 <idris-bot> \i => (List i, Either (List i) i) : Type -> Type
22:08:29 -!- Frooxius has joined.
22:09:15 <Melvar> Unwrapped reader monad, because they must have type (Type -> Type).
22:10:34 <Melvar> Sadly, coppro now hates me for showing this.
22:10:47 <oerjan> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ Left []
22:11:29 <oerjan> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ the y (Left [])
22:11:29 <idris-bot> (input):1:43:When checking argument value to function Prelude.Basics.the:
22:11:29 <idris-bot> Either (List elem) b (Type of Left [])
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22:12:05 <oerjan> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ the (y x) (Left [])
22:12:05 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate since no alternative is valid:
22:12:05 <idris-bot> Effects.>>=, BotPrelude.LiftEq.>>=, Prelude.Monad.>>=
22:12:37 <Melvar> y is a lambda arg of type Type there.
22:13:02 <oerjan> wait why didn't the y (Left []) work then
22:13:21 <Melvar> You can’t tell what it might be. It’s just a lambda arg that gets something passed in later.
22:13:29 <int-e> oerjan: not the (y (Left [])) ?
22:13:48 <oerjan> int-e: um no? the takes two arguments
22:15:08 <oerjan> ( :t do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ Left []
22:16:01 <Melvar> I still don’t know what that one is on about, but apparently it’s talking about an implicit argument that gets quantified wrong somewhere.
22:16:41 <Melvar> ( :t do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ Left {b=Type} []
22:17:17 <Melvar> ( :t do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ Left {b=Type} (the (List Int) [])
22:17:18 <idris-bot> return (Left (the (List Int) [])) : Type -> Either (List Int) Type
22:17:55 <Melvar> ( do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ Left {b=Type} (the (List Int) [])
22:17:55 <idris-bot> \i => Left [] : Type -> Either (List Int) Type
22:18:56 <oerjan> ( (do x <- List; y <- Either x; return $ the y (Left [])) Bool
22:18:56 <idris-bot> (input):1:57:Can't disambiguate since no alternative is valid:
22:18:56 <idris-bot> Effects.>>=, BotPrelude.LiftEq.>>=, Prelude.Monad.>>=
22:19:41 * oerjan ambles back to haskell
22:19:47 <Melvar> I told you there’s nothing known about y because it’s just a lambda arg.
22:20:28 <oerjan> well i thought maybe giving it the argument would solve that
22:20:49 <Melvar> No, it’s just not well-typed in the first place.
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22:22:26 <Taneb> oerjan, that is exactly the same type
22:22:29 <Taneb> Just more colourful
22:22:57 <Melvar> > :t \y => return $ the y (Left [])
22:22:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
22:23:02 <Melvar> ( :t \y => return $ the y (Left [])
22:23:02 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Effects.return, Prelude.Monad.return
22:23:03 <oerjan> nevertheless, it answered my question after a little consideration
22:23:38 <Melvar> ( :t \y => Monad.return {m = (\a => Type -> a)} $ the y (Left [])
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22:27:10 <Melvar> No clue what that fail was about.
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22:27:39 <Melvar> As though it lost the network but neither side noticed.
22:28:41 <Melvar> ( :t \y => Monad.return {m = (\a => Type -> a)} $ the y (Left [])
22:28:41 <idris-bot> (input):1:53:When checking argument value to function Prelude.Basics.the:
22:28:41 <idris-bot> Either (List elem) b (Type of Left [])
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22:48:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 272200Z 17009KT 15SM BKN040TCU BKN240 27/20 A2990 RMK TCU6CI1 SLP125 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
22:49:09 * boily rubs his hands together and cackles evily
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22:49:36 <lambdabot> EGLL 272220Z 24014KT 9999 SCT022 SCT024 15/11 Q1004
22:49:55 <fizzie> This is starting to feel like a Finnish summer.
22:52:31 <boily> EG is not Finland. did you illegally bring weather across states lines?
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23:12:55 <lambdabot> ENVA 272250Z 22005KT 190V250 9999 FEW030 09/07 Q1001 RMK WIND 670FT 24009KT
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01:01:47 <doesthiswork> have you folk already seen google's intercal styleguide?
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01:22:05 <shachaf> Better to test your IRC client outside of a channel full of people.
01:23:24 <shachaf> You should use any channel I'm not in.
01:23:33 <shachaf> You can make your own if you like.
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01:26:52 <hppavilion[1]> Now I just need to parse and prettyprint inbound ones
01:28:36 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: are you forgetting the : before the message in a PRIVMSG?
01:28:57 <oerjan> because that might make it ignore all but the first word
01:38:08 <MDude> I immediately guessed that #test is used as a channel for testing things, and was also right.
01:39:24 <MDude> Now to make a browser extentsion that opens a channel window for every hashtag you view on twitter.
01:39:39 -!- hppavilion[1] has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
01:40:33 <MDude> But hppavillion[1] had in fact started timing out before I even started talking.
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01:52:06 <oerjan> i guess he shall be forever doomed to speak in single-word messages, then.
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03:05:28 <FreeFull> I have an old IRC client I wrote sitting around
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03:31:44 <oren> Looks like Toronto Hydro decided to turn my power back on
03:32:59 <oren> idiots decided "oh lots of money for Pan-Am Games that noone cares about, no money for basic infrastructure like redundant power systems"
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04:47:46 <Sgeo_> "The Itanium is a 64-bit EPIC architecture. EPIC stands for Explicitly Parallel Instruction Computing, a design in which work is offloaded from the processor to the compiler. For example, the compiler decides which operations can be safely performed in parallel and which memory fetches can be productively speculated. This relieves the processor from having to make these decisions on the fly, thereby allowing it to focus on the real work of
04:48:05 <Sgeo_> Why shouldn't the CPU just trust the compiler to make that decision, instead of whatever magic it does now?
04:48:29 <Sgeo_> And/or a more expressive assembly
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04:58:55 <oren> compilers already have too much work to do
05:01:29 <oren> Instead of doing all this super smart memory caching, it would be better if they just added like 10 KB of registers for the compiler to work with.
05:04:08 <oren> that also fits into a compiler's current options
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05:10:50 <oren> idea: each instruction is 32 bits with an optional 64 bit address as argument. 12 bits are the opcode/addressing mode, 10 bits select a register, 10 bits select another register.
05:11:43 <oren> you have 1024 64-bit registers.
05:16:30 <oren> then you have instructions to "page write" or "page read" 64 registers at a time to/from memory.
05:17:05 <oren> (these instructions can be pipelined with instructions that don't use that particular reigster page)
05:18:50 <oren> screw it i'm tired
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07:16:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43603 * Hppavilion1 * (+488) Created Page
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07:22:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric data structure]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43604 * Hppavilion1 * (+300) Created Page
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07:24:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43605&oldid=43602 * Hppavilion1 * (+201) Responded to question
07:26:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43606&oldid=43605 * Hppavilion1 * (+93) Signed
07:26:52 <GoToTell> You're very enthousiastic about esolangs, hppavilion[1].
07:27:33 <hppavilion[1]> You'll notice that the last 2 edits were actually to talk pages
07:27:45 <hppavilion[1]> And that the second one was just correcting a mistake on the first :P
07:29:00 <GoToTell> which esolang was your first introduction to the subject?
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07:29:59 <GoToTell> One of the few that has a wiki page to itselft.
07:30:14 <GoToTell> You tried making an interpreter for it?
07:31:01 <hppavilion[1]> The only parser I've ever written was a Shunting-yard algorithm
07:33:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Esoteric Operating System]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43607&oldid=43599 * Hppavilion1 * (+184) Signed
07:34:51 <GoToTell> what do you see as the difference between those teo?
07:36:35 <hppavilion[1]> TRUE esolangs are made to be esoteric, and have more than just weird syntax
07:37:00 <hppavilion[1]> Lolcode isn't really a true esolang because it just uses strange keywords
07:37:30 <hppavilion[1]> Aside from the lulziness, it's just a crappy programming language
07:37:57 <hppavilion[1]> My language is also a Weirdlang because it doesn't do anything new, and it's just a normal language with strange syntax
07:38:58 <hppavilion[1]> To be an Esolang, you have to have something more than just strange syntax. You have to have confuddling semantics or novel structure
07:39:59 <GoToTell> I mean, most just group them all under esolangs, but they are different.
07:40:53 <hppavilion[1]> Weirdlangs look weird, esolangs are truly, well, esoteric
07:41:42 <GoToTell> In the example you just wrote though, it's an interesting Q of how you would write nested brackets.
07:45:09 <hppavilion[1]> Brackets are actually used as delimeters in walscript
07:46:25 <GoToTell> and it's while & endwhile that determines the scope.
07:47:01 <hppavilion[1]> And I think it's actually a Tangle-Bracket language itself, at least in my implementation
07:47:38 <hppavilion[1]> But yes, while and endwhile deterermine what gets looped, not the brackets
07:48:34 <GoToTell> My mind is full of javascript, so I see brackets I think scope.
07:49:42 <hppavilion[1]> But mine have to be at _least_ weirdlangs for me to make them
07:51:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Timesig]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43608 * Hppavilion1 * (+159) Created Page
07:53:17 <GoToTell> Here's an article I remember reading on "Vocabulary-Oriented and Behavior-Oriented Esolangs" http://esoteric.codes/post/113253944074/vocabulary-oriented-and-behavior-oriented-esolangs
07:54:06 <GoToTell> might help with how to charecterize the difference.
07:56:33 <hppavilion[1]> There's syntax, semantics, structure, anything else?
07:57:36 <GoToTell> I don't know enough to give a close answer to that.
07:57:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:O]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43609 * JayCampbell * (+98) kudos
07:58:43 <GoToTell> the wiki has a catergory page with stack, queues, cell... and so on.
08:00:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43610 * Hppavilion1 * (+934) Created Page
08:02:01 <mroman> you should make a language with no delimiters.
08:02:12 <mroman> and make whitespaces illegal
08:02:50 <mroman> while(a>b&&c>0){a+=bc--}
08:05:25 <mroman> you could get rid of {} by stating how many statements in the block are
08:05:32 <mroman> while(a>b&&c>0)2a+=bc--
08:05:41 <mroman> which tells the parser that the next two statements belong to a block
08:16:33 <hppavilion[1]> The least appropriately named esolang ever: BodyFuck
08:16:41 <fizzie> Go removes the () from constructions like those, because the cond is always one expression.
08:16:58 <fizzie> Still keeps the braces, though.
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08:36:32 <mroman> yeah () is actually redundant
08:36:41 <mroman> just parse one expression and you're fine :)
08:43:41 <fizzie> I seem to recall that in Go the braces are actually part of the syntax of the control structure, unlike in C, where the body can be any single statement, and the braces are part of the compound statement syntax.
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08:47:09 <fizzie> Related note: for consistency, C's function bodies should really do the same. int add1(int x) return x + 1; should be just fine.
08:53:08 <olsner> I think c++ allows the function body to be a try block, but not other statements
09:00:58 <fizzie> The old-style function definitions aren't perhaps all that friendly to the single-statement style.
09:03:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Adrianton3 * New user account
09:04:17 <fizzie> The other day I wrote a contrived example of a switch with a non-compound-statement body.
09:04:20 <fizzie> for (int i = 0, j = 0; i < 2; i++, j = 0) switch (i) do case 0: { putchar('a'); case 1: putchar('b'); } while (j++ < i);
09:04:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43611&oldid=42953 * Adrianton3 * (+7) /* Updated a link in the external resources */
09:04:58 <fizzie> I kind of like the "switch (i) do case 0:" part, it looks like code you'd expect from fungot.
09:04:58 <fungot> fizzie: they don't want people to search it for me. i should wake
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11:27:56 <FireFly> It reminds me of Duff's device
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11:39:56 <fizzie> In general, you can replace if (x == 42) foo(); for an integral x by switch (x) case 42: foo();
11:42:03 <b_jonas> yeah, and you can replace while(x)stmt with for(;x;)stmt and it's not even any longer, so the while keyword is quite redundant
11:43:03 <b_jonas> fizzie: however, if statements are useful when the body contains a case label for an outer switch
11:43:21 <b_jonas> in those cases you can't replace them with a switch so easily, though you can still replace them with a switch-goto in C
11:44:43 <b_jonas> as in, replace if(cond)stmt with {switch(cond)case 0:goto skip;stmt skip:;}
11:46:01 <b_jonas> also, more importantly, you can't replace an if with just a plain switch-case if the body contains "break" statements
11:46:17 <b_jonas> in that case too you can use switch-goto
11:49:22 <fizzie> Yes, I agree that if statements where the body contains a case label for an enclosing switch are good to have.
11:49:45 <fizzie> It's kind of like conditional fallthrough.
11:55:39 <b_jonas> I was sort of thinking on a small language with syntax somewhat similar to C (pre-C99), but that has if() and for(;;) but doesn't have while or switch, and make it such that it can be parsed without knowing the keywords, so you can substitute whatever translated keywords you want (subject to tokenizing rules) and it will mean the same
11:56:44 <b_jonas> it can only have three actually different basic types though, eg. int, unsigned char, unsigned long int
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11:57:30 <b_jonas> but three basic types should be enough. you can still declare pointers as unsigned char * because the non-letter punctuation is fixed
11:57:41 <b_jonas> only the alnum keywords are replacable
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12:10:07 <mroman> you could replace if with for as well
12:10:28 <mroman> for(;x;){/*do*/break;}
12:11:04 <mroman> hm. probably not so practical due to the else
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13:18:05 <Taneb> Well, that was a long lunch
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13:37:42 <shachaf> Taneb: Did it start around http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2012-02-18#133928Taneb ?
13:38:51 <Taneb> It was a very long lunch
13:39:12 <Taneb> (fwiw, "Late Post 'Not That Late'" is still my favourite ever headline)
13:53:49 <FreeFull> b_jonas: You don't need if, ?: will do
13:54:07 <FreeFull> b_jonas: And maybe you could have for loops where the syntax is just (;;)
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14:13:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43612&oldid=43606 * Rottytooth * (+281) responded to comment
14:14:39 <fizzie> FreeFull: Having only ?: and for (;;) for control constructs is really pretty awkward, because there's no way to do a conditional break (or goto) with only ?:.
14:15:09 <fizzie> Sure, you *could* get things done, but it wouldn't be very pleasant.
14:15:59 <FreeFull> You could always change semantics a bit though
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14:19:30 <fizzie> Of course GCC would let you write for (;;) { ...; x ? ({ break; }) : 0; ... } or even void *cont = &&cont, *done = &&done; cont: for (;;) { ...; goto *(x ? done : cont); } done:;
14:20:39 <oerjan> that's what pascal did
14:20:55 <oerjan> only one exit point per structure
14:21:16 <Taneb> fizzie, could you use recursion as a sneaky extra control structure?
14:21:41 <oerjan> hm i guess if then else excepted
14:23:57 <fizzie> Taneb: Yes. You might have stack-related problems, though.
14:29:41 <mroman> also disallow functions .
14:29:45 <mroman> just use computed jumps, yes.
14:29:51 <mroman> nothing else allowed :)
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14:32:58 <fizzie> The for sounds a bit superfluous at that point.
14:35:14 <Taneb> Does C have computed gotos?
14:35:44 <b_jonas> FreeFull: you can't quite change semantics. The point is that it sohuld be like OC, in that it's self-hosting and the compiler is written in sort of the intersection of the language and C, so you can boostrap it with a C compiler then compile it with itself.
14:36:04 <b_jonas> So you can add extensions, sure, but they complicate writing the compiler.
14:36:08 <izabera> do you think i can call a language 'c-like' if this is a syntax error? x += - y
14:36:42 <b_jonas> izabera: I didn't say C-like language. I said language with C-like synatax.
14:36:54 <b_jonas> And you can still say the language has C-like syntax when x += - y is an error
14:38:34 <izabera> oh wait my parser is choking on x += -3
14:38:43 <izabera> this is a problem isn't it?
14:40:49 <b_jonas> dunno, depends on what the specs are
14:41:22 <b_jonas> what are you trying to parse?
14:42:59 <izabera> trying to write a language that's not esoteric so it's kind of off topic here
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14:53:30 <mroman> I think humanity lacks a special kind of martial arts.
14:53:46 <mroman> We don't know how to fight in zero gravity!
14:53:53 <fizzie> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_C-family_programming_languages v g
14:54:07 <Taneb> mroman, we don't know how to do a lot of things in zero gravity
14:54:21 <mroman> Yeah, but fighting seems to be socially important.
14:55:02 <Taneb> Eh, it'll be a long time before zero gravity sees belligerent antagonists in close proximity
14:55:14 <mroman> Can you move in space without holding on to something?
14:55:17 <Taneb> Especially without a mediating force
14:55:21 <mroman> Like with a swimming movement?
14:56:07 <fizzie> I seem to recall hearing about that, plus that it's very inefficient.
14:56:17 <fizzie> mroman: You could spit to the other direction.
14:56:32 <fizzie> Or throw articles of clothing.
14:56:38 <mroman> apparentely viscosity of air isn't that good for moving
14:57:03 <mroman> you could swim, but it'd be horribly slow and inefficient.
14:57:03 <Phantom_Hoover> you're also going to have a hell of a time controlling your attitude
14:57:23 <mroman> also without friction holding you
14:57:26 <mroman> if you punch a guy in the face
14:57:29 <fizzie> For the airy case, you might want some sort of wings, like they have flippers for water.
14:57:30 <mroman> you'de be propelled backwards?
14:57:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, if you're attempting to fight someone in space, there's already an attitude problem somewhere
14:58:15 <mroman> so a grappling style is probably more suited for space fights
14:58:22 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, i mean you could just get your own little propellor jetpack
14:58:37 <Phantom_Hoover> bonus: you can fight people by doing the superman punch
14:58:51 <mroman> yeah if you have something to "jump off" from
14:59:00 <mroman> you could do matrix style fighting
14:59:38 <mroman> if we build a huge enough thing
14:59:38 <Phantom_Hoover> imo we should wait 3 years until the messiah chris roberts releases his space fps and answers all our questions
14:59:45 <mroman> that thing has so much gravity it will suck light towards it
14:59:51 <mroman> so you could build a supermassive camera
15:00:03 <mroman> by actually capturing it
15:01:20 <mroman> you mean constructing artificial gravitational lens to take pictures of things that would be hidden behind something?
15:01:31 <oerjan> i'm now imagine flippers larger than the person
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15:01:57 <Phantom_Hoover> no i mean using the sun as a lens to gather more light from a distant object
15:02:09 <mroman> ok. List of sports that would not be fun in zero gravity
15:02:15 <mroman> Wikipedia so needs this
15:02:34 <fizzie> Would that be as-is, or with some modification?
15:02:34 <oerjan> also, for the attitude, might a shark-like fin help
15:02:42 <mroman> fizzie: minor modifications are allowed
15:02:53 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think darts would be very fun
15:02:55 <mroman> so people can pull them selves using the rope around the bases
15:03:03 <Taneb> Then again, it'd probably be more fun than darts is normally
15:03:07 <fizzie> I'd like to see zero-gravity cycling with no modification or extra help.
15:03:34 <mroman> how would you sit on it?
15:03:43 <Phantom_Hoover> i know some people who essentially made a submarine that way
15:03:45 <fizzie> Just people furiously pedaling and floating uncontrolledly.
15:03:46 <MDude> You wouldn't need to midify the rules to allow some changes to the bikes.
15:03:50 <Taneb> mroman, staying sat on it is the hard part
15:04:07 <fizzie> Taneb: They've got shoes that lock onto the pedals.
15:04:13 * oerjan is still waiting for that picture of a black hole that was promised the other year
15:04:26 <MDude> You could keep the bike on a metal surface by having magnetic wheels.
15:04:36 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, are you sure you weren't just reading promotional material for interstellar
15:05:28 <MDude> If a black hole is lit form the back, you would bee able to see where the light isn't able to reach you due to the hole.
15:05:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it wasn't promotion but a blog
15:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean we know pretty well what we expect black holes to look like by now
15:06:33 <oerjan> http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2011/07/21/were-going-to-see-a-black-hole/
15:06:42 <mroman> weight lifting would probably be pretty useless in space?
15:07:13 <mroman> you'd need some sort of bungee cord
15:07:58 <mroman> usually the people on long space stays will have to do a lot of exercise on board to not loose to much muscle mass.
15:08:01 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, here, to tide you over http://sirxemic.github.io/Interstellar/
15:08:18 <mroman> Phantom_Hoover: I thought they had something like that
15:08:19 <Taneb> mroman, I think that is generally more cardio stuff
15:08:30 <oerjan> i've heard about interstellar
15:08:31 <mroman> otherwise they probably couldn't even walk anymore when they come back after a few months?
15:08:55 <mroman> muscles vanish pretty quickly
15:09:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think it's cardio as much as keeping muscle tone
15:09:26 <mroman> three months in a cast and you're thigh are almost gone
15:10:32 <mroman> Taneb: I thought it's about keeping muscles.
15:10:40 <Taneb> I think you are right
15:11:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it took too long, i closed it
15:12:34 <Phantom_Hoover> though now that i've dusted this computer it runs surprisingly smoothly
15:14:17 <mroman> there's a nicolas cage move I haven't seen
15:18:56 <oerjan> i've got the moooovies like cage
15:19:53 <mroman> he's better than all sharknado movies together
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17:06:23 <zzo38> I have installed the threaded Apache MPM, but now it says the package for PHP is not threadsafe (I have some PHP files that I will need to be able to run)
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18:03:11 <ais523> what's up with this edit?: http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=LOLCODE&diff=43600&oldid=42122
18:04:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43613&oldid=43603 * Ais523 * (+158) [[Esolang:Policy]]
18:06:43 <ais523> (it's also an operator in GNU C)
18:07:10 <shachaf> ais523: The previous revision had a duplicate entry.
18:07:16 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=LOLCODE&oldid=42122
18:07:31 <zzo38> Yes, an operator of GNU C that I tend to use often
18:07:47 <ais523> I've actually never used it
18:07:59 <ais523> although I use the Perl equivalents, || and //, quite a lot
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19:14:02 <izabera> can you produce a regex that matches c style strings?
19:14:26 <Taneb> coppro, what is your thesis about?
19:15:28 <ais523> and the double quotes match themselves literally
19:15:43 <ais523> \\. matches \\, then \\. matches \"
19:15:58 <coppro> Taneb: graph structure theory and logic
19:17:09 <izabera> i was trying with "(.*[^\\]|)(\\\\)*" but it got too complex
19:19:14 <izabera> and sorry for being stupid
19:24:26 <b_jonas> ais523: almost, but no. that matches a newline between double quotes, which is not a valid string literal.
19:24:31 <APic> Humans do not need to excuse themselves for Stupidity. It resembles an evil inheritable Disease.
19:26:52 <ais523> are formfeeds legal inside C literals? might need to ban those too
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19:34:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Rules]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43614&oldid=43613 * Hppavilion1 * (+68) Requested link
19:34:30 <b_jonas> ais523: then of course there's the problem that "\k" isn't a valid string literal either
19:36:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Policy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43615&oldid=30569 * Hppavilion1 * (+343) /* Expand article scope */ new section
19:39:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Policy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43616&oldid=30638 * Hppavilion1 * (+78) Clarified where articles can go. (That is, specified that only pages in the _main_ namespace have to be on Esolangs, as I'm pretty sure user namepace pages are generally users)
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19:40:00 <hppavilion[1]> For the record, I didn't change the meaning of the page, I just made it more clear
19:42:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43617&oldid=43612 * Hppavilion1 * (+276) Answered a question.
19:43:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43618&oldid=43617 * Hppavilion1 * (+92) Signed
19:45:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Tangle bracket language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43619&oldid=43618 * Hppavilion1 * (+229) Clarified my answer
19:45:31 <shachaf> I think that changes the meaning.
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19:45:51 <shachaf> It's also less clear, but that might just be due to lack of proofreading.
19:46:16 <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What I meant to say was that the "Esolangs only as articles" rule only applied in the _main_ namespace
19:46:47 <hppavilion[1]> So no one will get upset from confusion when they first encounter a User: page
19:48:29 <hppavilion[1]> I think I might speak my own dialect of english that _no one else understands_ :P'
19:49:02 <hppavilion[1]> If you want to revert it or try to make my unclarity clear, please do
19:58:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Policy]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43620&oldid=43616 * Hppavilion1 * (-78) Undo revision 43616 by Self (I was told it actually made it less clear and changed the meaning)
20:09:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43621&oldid=43052 * Hppavilion1 * (+524) Proved Folder TC
20:13:35 <tswett> So I've thought of a cryptographic problem.
20:14:13 <tswett> There are m people. How can they randomly select n people from themselves, such that each of the people selected knows exactly who has been selected, but each of the people not selected only knows that ey has not been selected?
20:14:49 <ais523> assuming that all communication is public?
20:15:08 <ais523> without that it's easy
20:15:15 <ais523> also, are we assuming that all these people are honest?
20:15:27 <zzo38> Is it possible to tell xterm to erase a picture from a specified area in the screen?
20:15:50 <ais523> actually, given the existence of private-key crypto
20:16:13 <tswett> They're not necessarily honest, but if they have all acted honestly, it must be possible for them to prove, after the fact, that they have acted honestly.
20:17:07 <tswett> Yeah, given the existence of private-key crypto, I don't think it matters whether all communication is public or not.
20:17:25 <tswett> Except that if all communication is public, then it's possible for a person to prove that they haven't communicated anything at all.
20:18:49 <tswett> Oh, and it's fine if it's possible for a person to ruin everything by not being honest—but if somebody does that, it will be impossible for em to prove after the fact that ey has acted honestly.
20:19:13 <tswett> And so everyone will assume that ey has *not* acted honestly, and force em to walk the plank.
20:19:30 <hppavilion[1]> 99999999999999999999999999999 bottles of beer on the wall
20:19:41 <tswett> There's a public source of random information handy; anyone can invoke it, and when they do, everyone sees the result.
20:19:50 <hppavilion[1]> 99999999999999999999999999998 bottles of beer on the wall!
20:20:28 <hppavilion[1]> If everyone has a number assigned to them... that won't work
20:21:04 <tswett> Maybe you could come up with one key pair corresponding to every possible selection of people.
20:21:13 <tswett> Reveal the public key, and give the private key to each of the people in the selection.
20:21:36 <tswett> Then, somehow, encrypt a message using a randomly chosen public key, without letting anyone know which public key was selected.
20:21:48 <Phantom_Hoover> if i can randomly pick the first person i think i can do the rest
20:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> with the caveat that probably everyone has to draw a random number at once
20:22:31 <Phantom_Hoover> oh wait everyone's playing along right, there's no competitive/betrayal element is there
20:22:55 <tswett> Well, here are the properties the protocol must follow.
20:23:08 <hppavilion[1]> If no one is trying to break the system, then it isn't a very good cryptography problem :P
20:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> hang on the public random number thing is fairly pointless
20:23:27 <tswett> If everyone behaves correctly, then the protocol must work properly, and after everything is finished, it must be possible for everyone to prove that they have behaved correctly.
20:23:52 <tswett> If someone behaves incorrectly, then the protocol need not work properly, but it must *not* be possible for that person to ever prove that ey has behaved correctly.
20:24:19 <hppavilion[1]> Is there some situation in the world in which this would be useful?
20:24:26 <tswett> Playing a game of "The Rebellion" when nobody trusts anybody.
20:24:27 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: there's this parlour game called Werewolf
20:24:33 <shachaf> hppavilion[1]: The part that made it less clear was "them" instead of "the".
20:25:19 <hppavilion[1]> So what would the practical uses for this be though?
20:25:38 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway if we can randomly, privately pick one person it becomes pretty simple, they just pick another n-1 people at random
20:26:47 <hppavilion[1]> Encrypt the message "You have been selected" with one random person's public key
20:27:25 <ais523> if you don't count on the people being honest
20:27:30 <tswett> Yeah, given a collection of public keys, is it possible to encypt a message using a randomly chosen one of those keys, without letting anyone know which key it was?
20:27:35 <ais523> the problem is that the person making the selection will be able to decrypt any message directed at them
20:28:05 <ais523> what you do is you get one person to encrypt everyone's public key with their own private key
20:28:30 <ais523> doesn't work because if you produced a message yourself, you can decrypt it even without the key
20:28:45 <hppavilion[1]> So everybody has a private key and a less private key
20:29:09 <hppavilion[1]> And the private key can decrypt messages written with the less private key
20:29:23 <hppavilion[1]> Someone draws a less-private key from a hat and doesn't know who it belongs to
20:29:30 <b_jonas> tswett: how expensive can you allow it to be? if there's only a few public keys, you can encrypt the message with one of the keys and encrypt dummy empty messages of the same size with the other keys.
20:29:54 <b_jonas> tswett: the person who has the private keys will of course be able to tell.
20:30:51 <hppavilion[1]> Well I assume you just don't tell anybody your private-ish key
20:30:57 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: so by "less private key", it sounds like you essentially mean "public key, except it's not necessarily revealed to everyone". Right?
20:32:04 <hppavilion[1]> And as a bonus, I don't think anybody but the encrypter can break the system
20:32:16 <Phantom_Hoover> the public key of it is then published, you put the private key into a hat with m-1 blank slips
20:32:28 <Phantom_Hoover> then everyone draws a slip and whoever gets the key is the handler, all fine
20:32:29 <tswett> How does the "putting in a hat" work? If everyone has a message, then how does everyone publish the message in such a way that nobody knows who sent which message?
20:33:12 <tswett> Hmm. I think there might be an optimized version of my method.
20:33:29 <Phantom_Hoover> wait for fuck's sake if you can draw from a hat you don't need keys at all, you just need a marked slip
20:34:02 <tswett> Everyone publishes eir own public key. Someone takes a message and randomly encrypts it with each public key in succession... wait, this is going to require anonymous sending.
20:34:30 <Phantom_Hoover> agree that everyone publishes a message every 5 minutes
20:35:22 <tswett> So we want to do "anonymous sending"—someone publishes a message in such a way that nobody knows who published it.
20:35:44 <tswett> If everyone publishes a message every five minutes, then how does the message get anonymized?
20:36:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i thought you meant sending messages such that nobody but the communicants know about it
20:36:13 <hppavilion[1]> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1bSqEn8FtRh7iM8KYvOK8_DW03xAwjvAK0pIrR2RkO8U/edit?usp=sharing
20:36:24 <tswett> This anonymous sending isn't necessarily needed, though.
20:36:40 <hppavilion[1]> That'll make it easier to figure out what's going on
20:38:38 <tswett> So we come up with a public key corresponding to every possible selection.
20:38:52 <tswett> Everyone knows which selection corresponds to which public key.
20:39:04 <tswett> Uh, come to think of it, this doesn't quite work, but I'll continue anyway.
20:39:38 <Phantom_Hoover> again the problem reduces to the case where you need to pick one person from a group of m
20:40:07 <tswett> A designated person selects a random public key, in such a way that ey can later prove that it was actually selected randomly.
20:40:19 <tswett> The designated person then simply publishes a message encrypted using that public key.
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20:40:38 <tswett> Yeah, come to think of it, this isn't anything new.
20:41:15 <hppavilion[1]> Assuming that the participants know the value of n
20:42:17 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, er, wouldn't the designated person know who got selected then?
20:42:37 <tswett> Yeah, so "encrypt something with a randomly chosen key" is a sufficient, uh, tool.
20:43:28 <tswett> Now, I think "draw a message out of a hat and burn the other messages" may also be sufficient.
20:44:01 <tswett> If you have that, then each person can randomly choose a public key which contains em, encrypt something using that key, and put it into the hat.
20:44:29 <tswett> Of course, ey will have to be able to prove later that ey really selected it randomly.
20:45:02 <tswett> Actually, I don't think that's necessary.
20:45:17 <tswett> Each person can simply encrypt something using *every* public key which contains em.
20:45:24 <tswett> And then submit all of these into the hat.
20:45:38 <tswett> Then pick a random encrypted message out of the hat. Boom.
20:47:30 <hppavilion[1]> They probably must, given that one of them does the selecting
20:47:54 <Phantom_Hoover> once you have an anonymous handler you can do that stuff easily
20:48:15 <hppavilion[1]> But how does the handler know how many keys to choose?
20:48:33 <tswett> All participants know both m and n.
20:48:35 <Phantom_Hoover> have everyone publish a public key at the start, pick the handler
20:48:53 <Phantom_Hoover> the handler then proceeds according to some algorithm with their private key as input
20:49:08 <Phantom_Hoover> hppavilion[1], just exclude that case, it works fine for n=m-2
20:49:10 <tswett> The lone unselected person knows nothing besides the fact that the selected people are the people other than emself.
20:49:54 <tswett> He isn't supposed to have any information besides the information that's supposed to be explicitly revealed to him.
20:49:57 <tswett> And sure enough, he doesn't.
20:50:52 <tswett> It just so happens that when n = m - 1, the information of who the selected people are *is* effectively explicitly revealed to him.
20:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> so once again, how do you pick one person within the mentioned constraints
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21:21:26 <hppavilion[1]> Did you guys figure out the solution to the problem?
21:22:15 <ais523> hppavilion[1]: I lost interest
21:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, we got it down to something a lot simpler by the end
21:22:43 <hppavilion[1]> Would you happen to know of any online database of problems like that I could read?
21:22:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Rules]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43622 * Oerjan * (+28) Since someone expected it here, make a redirect
21:27:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Help]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43623&oldid=37152 * Oerjan * (+0) /* Article names with forbidden characters */ I think this should be in code format
21:34:50 <tswett> Yeah, the problem seems to come down to hat-picking.
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22:23:08 <oerjan> <hppavilion[1]> shachaf: What I meant to say was that the "Esolangs only as articles" rule only applied in the _main_ namespace <-- i am not sure that is true in either direction...
22:23:55 <shachaf> <oerjan> i like bugs. i like bugs! i like bugs. i like bugs. <-- i think i like bugs too!
22:23:57 <oerjan> as in, there are other things than esolangs allowed in the main space, and there are probably also things so off topic that we'd look sternly at someone filling their user pages with them
22:24:21 <oerjan> (especially if they made a lot of pages)
22:25:00 <oerjan> we already allow general CS stuff as long as its useful for esolanging
22:25:49 <oerjan> what we don't allow, because it'd get the site all out of focus, is non-esoteric _languages_
22:26:36 <shachaf> What about non-language esoterica?
22:26:38 <oerjan> (also, everything i've said here probably has at least one exception on the wiki already.)
22:27:19 <oerjan> shachaf: the boundaries exist but are _very_ vague, i think
22:28:17 <shachaf> Taneb: How did your lens talk go?
22:28:28 <Taneb> shachaf, seeing as it's tomorrow
22:28:44 <Taneb> I guess we'll find out
22:28:47 <oerjan> Taneb: just make sure to keep it focused hth
22:28:49 <shachaf> do you really expect me to keep track of things down to the last day
22:30:46 <Taneb> Get a wall calendar hth
22:31:22 <shachaf> even if i had a wallendar i probably wouldn't think to put your talk on it
22:31:32 <Taneb> Get multiple wall calenders hth
22:31:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, do I know who that is
22:32:33 <HackEgo> 240) <treederwright> enjoy being locked in your matrix of solidity
22:32:42 <Taneb> I wonder how they are doing
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22:36:17 <boily> quinthellopia, hppavellon[1].
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22:38:03 <boily> I should updfate the wisdom...
22:40:50 <coppro> ais523: man, quake chat has been great today
22:40:58 <ais523> coppro: it's normally pretty good
22:41:12 <ais523> OTOH, there hasn't been much need for mod actions to keep it good
22:41:22 <coppro> it normally is, yeah, but it's been even better than usual imo
22:41:51 <ais523> how many unrelated IRC channels do we share right now?
22:42:08 <coppro> nethack, esoteric, nomic, gdq
22:42:11 <shachaf> Is quake chat what it sounds like?
22:42:13 <ais523> four, I forgot ##nomic
22:42:22 <coppro> I'm in three with boily
22:42:27 <b_jonas> shachaf: what does it sound like?
22:43:05 <b_jonas> ais523: does #nethack4 count as unrelated to #esoteric ?
22:43:11 <ais523> yes, despite the overlap
22:43:13 <coppro> but it's not unrelated to #nethack
22:43:23 <ais523> there's no real reason why the subjects should be connected
22:43:33 <ais523> I mean, there's a big ##nomic/#esoteric overlap too
22:43:44 <b_jonas> coppro: ah, you're just going by name. like the... ok, never mind
22:44:01 <coppro> b_jonas: no, by subject matter
22:44:19 <ais523> e.g. I consider #tasvideos and #hourglass to be connected
22:44:22 <ais523> even though the names are unrelated
22:44:33 <boily> I share four chännels with shachaf.
22:44:47 <ais523> diareses don't work like that
22:44:53 <shachaf> Well, it's more like two chаnnels.
22:44:56 <Taneb> I share 5 with shachaf, hah
22:45:04 <Taneb> But three sets of channels, I guess
22:45:32 <shachaf> Oh, Taneb isn't in one part of that channel.
22:45:46 <shachaf> Hasn't worked for a long time.
22:45:50 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I don't think HackEgo has access to the logs
22:46:00 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/pastlog: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ ls: cannot access ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
22:46:11 <Phantom_Hoover> does anyone remember who 'that `v fucker' was, i can't find them in the logs
22:46:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v: not found
22:46:55 <shachaf> Is it the same as |f`-`|f ?
22:47:24 <shachaf> Or just the same style of annoying nick?
22:49:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43624&oldid=38024 * Quintopia * (-28) knuth pronunciation is standard right?
22:49:30 <Phantom_Hoover> anyway the only other channel i'm consistently in is in another network, has maybe 30 people in it and is about a mod for an ancient game with no connection whatsoever to esolangs
22:50:14 <Phantom_Hoover> never said a word there or here except when i asked if they were the same person
22:51:42 <boily> `^_^v. suspicious.
22:51:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ^_^v.: not found
22:53:25 * oerjan didn't notice ^v had disappeared
22:54:40 <boily> so many disappeared peoples... Bike, elliott, Fiora, oklopol, itidus[n | n <- [19..21]]...
22:54:56 <oerjan> also the only thing i'm getting out of your crypto problem is the vague feeling you're all thinking _far_ too approximately to trust what you came up with.
22:56:08 <oerjan> oklopol came by "incognito" a while gao
22:56:49 <oerjan> i suspect the elliott that is currently online is someone else
22:58:36 <oerjan> Fiora is online, and i saw Bike not too long ago
22:59:54 <shachaf> nitia hasn't been around in a while.
23:02:02 <shachaf> You figured that out more quickly than I did.
23:04:27 <Sgeo_> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20141017071618-3815022-secure-programming-ada-vs-rust
23:06:49 <lambdabot> *** "otiose" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
23:06:49 <lambdabot> adj 1: serving no useful purpose; having no excuse for being;
23:06:49 <lambdabot> "otiose lines in a play"; "advice is wasted words"; "a
23:06:49 <lambdabot> pointless remark"; "a life essentially purposeless";
23:07:24 <oerjan> is otiose a homological word
23:07:47 <ais523> huh, I guess I learned a word today
23:07:51 <lambdabot> "senseless violence" [syn: {otiose}, {pointless},
23:07:51 <lambdabot> {purposeless}, {senseless}, {superfluous}, {wasted}]
23:07:51 <lambdabot> 2: producing no result or effect; "a futile effort"; "the
23:07:51 <lambdabot> therapy was ineffectual"; "an otiose undertaking"; "an
23:07:51 <lambdabot> unavailing attempt" [syn: {futile}, {ineffectual}, {otiose},
23:08:29 <ais523> so something is otiose, either if it doesn't have a useful end goal, or if it does but fails to get anywhere near it or anywhere else
23:08:57 <shachaf> http://ct2015.web.ua.pt/talks.html
23:09:54 <oerjan> me in a nutshell there
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23:11:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43625&oldid=43624 * Quintopia * (+7) bug fix
23:20:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43626&oldid=43625 * Quintopia * (+78) bug fix
23:20:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43627&oldid=43626 * Quintopia * (+4) /* Examples */
23:21:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43628&oldid=43627 * Quintopia * (-4) /* Examples */
23:25:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43629&oldid=43628 * Quintopia * (+5) deck size reqs
23:29:20 <zzo38> Can the mouse pointer be changed in xterm when the program is set to receive mouse events?
23:29:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Magicard!]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43630&oldid=43629 * Quintopia * (+143) handle edge case
23:40:11 <oerjan> argh am i supposed to get GT to translate japanese portmanteaus now
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23:47:45 <boily> oerjan: I admit japormantese may be a little be far fetched...
23:49:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abstract machine]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43631 * Hppavilion1 * (+195) Created page
23:52:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Abstract machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43632&oldid=43631 * Hppavilion1 * (+582) Added a section on turing machines (other people are free to add more
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00:19:01 <fowl> Declarative...
00:19:15 <newsham> "from this day on forward, I shall never write a JIT again without Jesse". https://www.squarefree.com/2015/07/28/releasing-jsfunfuzz-and-domfuzz/
00:42:04 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Void’
00:42:04 <lambdabot> variable ‘void’ (imported from Control.Monad.Writer),
00:42:10 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Void’
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00:45:10 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
00:51:45 <oerjan> it's a non-imported module, so cannot be run from >
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01:24:48 <ais523> oerjan: how is absurd implemented? a pattern match with an empty body?
01:25:12 <ais523> @source Data.Void.absurd
01:25:19 <lambdabot> What module? Try @listmodules for some ideas.
01:25:39 <lambdabot> activity base bf check compose dice dict djinn dummy elite eval filter free fresh haddock help hoogle instances irc karma localtime metar more oeis offlineRC pl pointful poll pretty quote search slap source spell system tell ticker todo topic type undo unlambda unmtl version where
01:26:51 <oerjan> ais523: i think that depends on the Data.Void version
01:27:13 <lambdabot> Source not found. Take a stress pill and think things over.
01:27:29 <oerjan> also @src isn't a good source of sources hth
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01:28:59 <oerjan> latest version has newtype Void = Void Void
01:29:33 <oerjan> so it's still not based on empty datatypes
01:30:20 <oerjan> absurd a = a `seq` spin a where spin (Void b) = spin b
01:31:30 <ais523> interesting use of `seq`, there
01:31:33 <shachaf> "data Void; absurd :: Void -> a; absurd x = case x of {}" is a valid implementation.
01:31:52 <oerjan> yes, but not the one used in the void package
01:31:52 <shachaf> (With recent GHC, at least.)
01:32:08 <ais523> is this one of the few places you actually require braces in Haskell?
01:32:16 <ais523> or does it have a pass keyword?
01:32:50 <shachaf> I think "case x of" would be OK.
01:33:11 <oerjan> yeah, the layout rules should insert {} if what follows is indented right
01:33:28 <shachaf> Well, if it's not indented any further right.
01:35:22 <oerjan> edwardk is presumably keeping it in old style due to his policy of supporting at least 3 Haskell Platform versions
01:36:19 <shachaf> https://hackage.haskell.org/package/void says "Haskell 98"
01:36:39 <shachaf> But I proposed a Void type in base and everyone was in favour.
01:36:46 <shachaf> Then I didn't do anything about it.
01:36:58 <shachaf> One of you folks who get things done, like oerjan, can pick it up.
01:39:25 <oerjan> sarcasm and serious reality disconnect are so hard to distinguish
01:40:53 <oerjan> oh wait it actually _was_ added to base
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01:45:59 <oerjan> shachaf: i used my great powers to do it in the past hth
01:46:58 <shachaf> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9814
01:47:00 <oerjan> still, amusing is-this-a-bug-or-not? http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31689305/haskell-data-void-undefined-turns-into-infinite-loop
01:47:07 <shachaf> hvr kept bugging me about filing that.
01:47:40 <ais523> oerjan: oh, so /that's/ what the `seq` is for
01:47:52 <ais523> answer: it isn't a bug, Haskell defines exceptions and infinite loops as equivalent
01:48:08 <shachaf> Oh, I didn't realize you were asking.
01:49:29 <oerjan> i knew it wasn't technically a bug, still unexpected
01:49:52 <oerjan> and the seq ought to prevent it
01:50:44 <shachaf> seq doesn't give any guarantees there.
01:50:52 <shachaf> a `seq` b can force either b or a first.
01:50:58 <ais523> well, if "undefined :: Void" is an infinite loop by itself
01:51:07 <ais523> then changing the definition of absurd won't help
01:51:18 <oerjan> that explains absurd undefined, although not undefined :: Void alone...
01:51:31 <ais523> does Void implement Show?
01:51:31 <oerjan> hm maybe the Show will explain that
01:51:39 <ais523> "show" on a value of type void
01:51:42 <ais523> doesn't need to look at the value at all
01:51:49 <ais523> because it has only one constructor
01:52:07 <shachaf> > show (undefined :: Void)
01:52:08 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Void’
01:52:12 <oerjan> oh and show uses absurd...
01:52:13 <ais523> there was one constructor in the version oerjan linked earlier
01:52:24 <oerjan> i think i might be able to answer that question
01:52:32 <ais523> oh, if the impl of show uses absurd
01:52:34 <ais523> then yes, it's obvious
01:52:39 <ais523> I assumed it'd just be "deriving Show" :-)
01:54:04 <oerjan> nope, that would probably have printed "Void (Void (Void ...
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01:54:38 <shachaf> Which would have been unexpected for ais523 yesterday.
01:55:16 <ais523> shachaf: it was unexpected due to me not thinking about the implications
01:55:32 <shachaf> Right, not unexpected if you think about it.
01:57:31 <shachaf> Or maybe you'd expect it in Haskell and not in a strict language.
01:59:11 <ais523> nah, it's possible to create an infinite structure in a strict language using self-reference
01:59:16 <ais523> OCaml actually has explicit syntax for doing so
01:59:51 <shachaf> I know it's possible, I'm just saying that maybe you would find it more unexpected.
02:00:10 <shachaf> In Haskell a cyclic data structure is just a special case of an infinite data structure.
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02:00:36 <hppavilion[1]> I want to see a BF derivative with A tape of trees of stacks
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02:08:37 * oerjan posted his answer to the thread
02:12:51 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/31689305/haskell-data-void-undefined-turns-into-infinite-loop
02:13:18 <oerjan> hm i guess "thread" isn't the right word for SO
02:16:42 <oerjan> i note that edwardk hasn't updated void to reexport the base version yet
02:18:53 <shachaf> edwardk: Any plans to do that?
02:21:59 <hppavilion[1]> I thought of a way to make a more legible Funge-like language
02:35:06 <oerjan> there was some 2d language with legible words...
02:49:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wittgen's Zucchini]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43633 * MDude * (+1147) Created page with "A programming language meant to combine elements primarily of [[Wittgen]] and [[Zucchini]] to create a language for programs related to neural activity, noting that node behav..."
02:50:56 <MDude> I dunno what that would mean.
02:52:05 <MDude> Maybe to something like X3D, where you have a grid of characters, but each one represents a subprogram written in a non-fungoid language.
02:53:23 <MDude> Though the non-fungoid parts would need to be limited in a way as to make sure it can't be sued to effectively bypass using any fungoidness.
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04:38:39 <hppavilion[1]> I'm writing an article for an Esoteric data Structure
04:39:45 <rdococ> esoteric data structure?
04:43:21 <zzo38> What kind of esoteric data structure is it?
04:45:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Disney queue]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43634 * Hppavilion1 * (+2040) Created Page
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04:46:54 <hppavilion[1]> It's badly written, but it gets the point across, I hope
04:54:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43635&oldid=37953 * Xavo * (+19) changed "Quintopia" to "[[User:Quintopia|Quintopia]]"
04:55:27 <zzo38> I do not quite understand the last section so well
04:55:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[1mpr0mp2]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43636&oldid=43635 * Hppavilion1 * (-10) The style guide clearly states to leave on the User: prefix
04:58:46 <hppavilion[1]> Basically, when a child is too short to ride a rid
04:59:08 <hppavilion[1]> Parent A can ride and Parent B stays behind with the child
04:59:32 <hppavilion[1]> Parent B rides and Parent A stays back to care for the child
04:59:48 <hppavilion[1]> They let the pair who aren't riding wait by the gate
05:00:32 <hppavilion[1]> Should I explain how Child Swaps work at disney to clarify in the article?
05:00:53 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose so.
05:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Did you like the use of the (r) in the function on FastPass?
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05:04:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Disney queue]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43637&oldid=43634 * Hppavilion1 * (+396) Explained Child Swap
05:04:27 <zzo38> I don't really care. An actual implementation would likely not use any of the same syntax as mentioned there
05:05:02 <hppavilion[1]> Disney Queue isn't a language, it's a Data Structure
05:05:21 <zzo38> I know, I can see that
05:05:45 <zzo38> That is why aAn actual implementation would likely not use any of the same syntax as mentioned there .
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05:18:03 <zzo38> How to view Windows .HLP files in Linux?
05:40:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ResPlicate]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43638&oldid=38936 * Quintopia * (+0) wrong year
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06:37:22 <hppavilion[1]> I just discovered Irreparably Confused Foundations of Mathematics
07:06:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Generic Brainfuck Derivative]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43639 * Hppavilion1 * (+390) Created Page (Note to self: Get back to this later)
07:41:17 <mroman> a doubly-linked list is just a binary tree whose left node is its parent.
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08:28:51 <myname> http://www.ebay.de/itm/191586916547?clk_rvr_id=875456501399&rmvSB=true
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09:43:09 <mroman> fungot: What do you usually eat?
09:43:10 <fungot> mroman: at which point does -infinity become infinity? how many schemes use a gc.
09:43:40 <mroman> You mean... if you keept subtracting from -infinity it will wrap-around eventually
09:44:58 <Taneb> mroman, fungot exclusively uneats, ending up full
09:44:59 <fungot> Taneb: i am hungry. time for japanese is cut, your time for japanese is cut, your time for japanese is cut, your time for japanese is cut, you can't
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10:01:38 <mroman> fungot is the reason why entropy increases?
10:01:38 <fungot> mroman: i just wrote an interpreter, but it's become pretty common parlance. decorate-sort-undecorate. it's still cheap to study
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10:05:57 <b_jonas> it's common, but often not a good idea.
10:06:05 <b_jonas> fungot: why don't you use indices instead?
10:06:05 <fungot> b_jonas: not that you can't tell me olivier danvy is an fnord simulator for a variety of programming paradigms styles.
10:06:20 <b_jonas> fungot: have you considred logarithms?
10:06:20 <fungot> b_jonas: i don't find them that sexy
10:06:39 <fizzie> fungot: Stop appearing sentient, please.
10:06:40 <fungot> fizzie: http://www.scheme.dk/ macros-and-modules.txt javascript actually working comfortably together to minimize the effort.
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10:41:34 <Taneb> Is the vertex graph of an icosahedron planar?
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10:55:28 <b_jonas> I need a macro to cast feather fall before falling off five levels of conditionals at the same time
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10:56:08 <b_jonas> falling three levels are already deadly, and falling two levels usually takes a hit point
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11:16:48 <boily> who the fungot writes, by their own volition, more than one level deep of conditionals...
11:16:48 <fungot> boily: yup, i ran out of black helicopters?
11:17:07 <boily> ah, those who run out of black helicopters. makes perfect sense.
11:17:27 <boily> b_jhellonas. you're talking about #defines and #ifdefs, right?
11:22:24 <boily> (if I'm declinating Taneb, maybe I should hungarify b_jonas. b_jónapotkívánokas?)
11:24:34 <b_jonas> boily: no, only ordinary if() conditionals and similar
11:27:33 <boily> oh. well, may your black helicopters be plentiful in your conditional journey!
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11:32:24 <mroman> fungot: Do you have other coloured ones left?
11:32:24 <fungot> mroman: and there are good odds, that you declare the type in advance, just in case... the font that gets used for lists as well as
11:41:47 <b_jonas> "that intermediate result is saved to a cache, so clearly the expensive computation generating it won't run again every time" is faulty logic, right?
11:43:38 <fizzie> Yeah, it could be a write-only cache.
11:47:50 <ais523> on the subject of esolangs, Raymond Chen seems to have started a series on his blog about Itanium assembler
11:47:56 <ais523> which counts as an esolang, I think
11:58:34 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, same as bancstar
11:58:56 <ais523> in the case of itanium asm you can actually see what they were getting at
11:58:59 <ais523> but it's all terribly wrong anyway
11:59:35 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, itanium probably wasn't intended to be written by hand much, but only compiled to
11:59:57 <ais523> even as a compiler target it's bizarre
12:00:00 <b_jonas> that it's terribly wrong is irrelevant for being an esolang.
12:00:13 <ais523> there are a ton of reasonable-looking things that you can't do
12:00:39 <b_jonas> ais523: well sure, but then what actual hardware cpu designed for practical purposes isn't bizarre as a compiler target?
12:00:54 <b_jonas> itanium is just bizarre in a new way that compilers aren't used to.
12:01:54 <ais523> b_jonas: the problem is more that I don't see how it can be efficient on the hardware end
12:02:22 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know about that, but probably sure
12:07:22 <int-e> itanium seems to be dying slowly anyway
12:08:59 <int-e> this chart is so sad. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Processor_families_in_TOP500_supercomputers.svg
12:23:22 <fizzie> Is that a small uptick of SPARC at the right edge?
12:25:35 <Jafet> Just Moore's law for new fabs.
12:33:01 <mroman> ais523: link to that blog?
12:33:15 <ais523> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/
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12:49:33 <mroman> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2015/06/29/10624284.aspx
12:49:42 <mroman> why would you parse an unsigned long and then cast it to long?
12:50:12 <mroman> "Unfortunately, this doesn't work if the input is 9223372036854775808, which is the value of 1 << 63, a value that is representable as a 64-bit unsigned value but not a 64-bit signed value. "
12:50:35 <oren> because whoever printed it out cast it first to unsigned?
12:51:53 <mroman> The problem is, that the input 923... can't be parsed?
12:52:03 <mroman> So he recommends parsing it as an ulong
12:52:21 <mroman> even though in the end he casts it to a long
12:52:25 <mroman> which can't hold the value he just parsed
12:53:12 <oren> a ulong can hold the same values as a long, they are just mathematically interpreted differently
12:53:34 <mroman> so by casting the parsed 92... to a long you don't get 92...
12:54:07 <oren> I assume that MS C compilers are always -fwrapv
12:54:28 <mroman> That's like byte parseSomehow() have it legally parse 257
12:54:31 <mroman> but interpret it as -1
12:55:50 <mroman> I don't see why you'd ever want to have it parse a value whose value is larger than you can actually accept.
12:56:25 <oren> because you hate throwimng exceptions?!
12:56:38 <mroman> well then catch the exceptions?
12:56:42 <fizzie> Nitpick: the value ranges for 'unsigned long' and 'long' aren't necessarily the same size. (But I'm not sure about the Little Program either, it seems a bit vague.)
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12:57:26 <mroman> also you can still get an exception probably by using a string with a number larger than UINT64_MAX
12:58:18 <oren> fizzie: right but Microsoft defines tham to be the same size
12:58:45 <oren> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/0eex498h.aspx
12:59:11 <ais523> fizzie: a) Little Programs are intentionally sloppy to get the points across faster; b) unless stated otherwise, everything on that blog assumes Windows
12:59:22 <fizzie> oren: Well, the program is C# anyway.
12:59:57 <fizzie> I think maybe the idea is that the string you have might have interpreted some 64 bits as signed or unsigned, and you just want a 'long' that has those bits.
13:00:41 <mroman> That'd be reasonable, yes.
13:00:59 <Jafet> `cc #include <stdio.h> \ #include <errno.h> \ main() { errno = 0, strtoul("0x10000000000000000", 0, 0), printf("%d", errno); }
13:01:13 <fizzie> Although I'd prefer it to return an ulong instead.
13:02:08 <mroman> I would prefer bits64 or something :D
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13:02:15 <mroman> but those data types usually don't exist.
13:02:15 <oren> C# looks so much like a microsoft-finagled c++
13:02:49 <Jafet> `echo Some output.
13:02:57 <oren> well I guess that's that it is
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13:05:29 <oren> int64_t is too long a name
13:05:43 <oren> #define i8 int64_t
13:05:50 <oren> #define u8 uint64_t
13:06:07 <oren> #define u1 uint8_t
13:06:18 <Jafet> It used to be too long long, but now it's just too long.
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13:07:01 <Taneb> `addquote <oren> int64_t is too long a name <Jafet> It used to be too long long, but now it's just too long.
13:07:07 <HackEgo> 1250) <oren> int64_t is too long a name <Jafet> It used to be too long long, but now it's just too long.
13:07:16 <fizzie> The "normal" convention is i32, u32 and so on.
13:07:25 <Taneb> fizzie, i64 in this case
13:07:54 <oren> right but here I'm going by the sizeof it
13:08:09 <oren> #define f8 double
13:08:17 <oren> #define f4 float
13:08:28 <oren> #define f10 long double
13:08:35 <Taneb> #define f12 triple
13:08:39 <fizzie> That's normally not the sizeof of long double.
13:08:40 <Jafet> #define float (fix your code)
13:09:24 <fizzie> You can get 12 or 16 out of GCC, but not 10.
13:10:02 <Taneb> #define f20 pentuple
13:10:16 <Jafet> `cc main(){ printf("%zu", sizeof(long double)); }
13:10:34 <oren> well the olny sane way to use long double is in a register variable...
13:10:34 <fizzie> What what? GCC has -m96bit-long-double and -m128bit-long-double flags, the default is different on x86-32 vs. x86-64. There's no -m80bit-long-double.
13:12:18 <Jafet> Only in the frag shader.
13:12:24 <oren> depends on archictecture
13:13:50 <oren> on x86 float operations use an intermediate 80-bit representation, which maps to register long double variables
13:15:05 <oren> my computer has the last of that line
13:18:02 <mroman> oren: mind you that you should use int64_fast_t anyway
13:19:19 <mroman> unless you need a fixed width for memory purposes or whatever
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13:22:15 <mroman> int64_t reads/writes aren't guaranteed to be atomic, right?
13:22:28 <Jafet> CPUs should just trap on signed overflow, then this problem would go away.
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13:22:39 <mroman> sig_atomic_t read/writes on the other hand are guaranteed to be atomic
13:23:20 <fizzie> mroman: It needs to be a volatile sig_atomic_t, I think.
13:24:04 <fizzie> (C11 has the _Atomic qualifier, but it's not required, and no particular types are required to be supported with it, if any are.)
13:24:06 <mroman> It's funny how much of these things don't matter usually unless you're an embedded sytems developper
13:24:53 <mroman> also you usually don't have stdlibc there anyway :)
13:25:23 <mroman> and no standard compliant C compiler
13:25:36 <mroman> the C world is fucked up
13:27:03 <oren> Yeah. Confirmed, I have a 'Yonah' intal processor, the last 32-bit core
13:27:16 <mroman> fizzie: what does _Atomic guarantee?
13:27:26 <mroman> or even operations such as += to be atomic?
13:27:40 <Jafet> Most C code isn't standard, regardless of platform. (Wiedijk has argued that, depending on how you read the standard, there might not exist a fully standard program.)
13:29:17 <fizzie> mroman: There's a set of operations on them in <stdatomic.h>. The kind of ones you'd expect -- store, load, exchange, compare_exchange, fetch-and-modify with add/sub/or/xor/and.
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13:29:37 <mroman> ah so it doesn't work for structs?
13:29:39 <oren> Well maybe the standard should be descriptive rather than prescriptive
13:31:00 <fizzie> mroman: Actually, I think it works for structs. But the fetch-and-modify ones are only applicable to atomic integer types.
13:31:04 <mroman> like uhm _Atomic struct point_t myAtomicPoint;
13:31:15 <mroman> myAtomicPoint.foo += i;
13:31:22 <mroman> which would be atomic in this case
13:31:43 <fizzie> I don't think the qualifier guarantees anything when you're not using the atomic operations.
13:31:57 <fizzie> And they're not guaranteed to be lock-free -- you can ask whether an atomic object is, though.
13:32:20 <mroman> not all platforms support atomic operations anyway
13:32:45 <mroman> which is tricky for portability reasons
13:33:11 <mroman> on some microcontrollers you have no other choice than to
13:33:24 <mroman> DISABLE_INTERRUPTS; /* do things */ ENABLE_INTERRUPTS;
13:36:18 <Jafet> I don't think you can find a C11 compiler for a microcontroller in any case.
13:42:44 <mroman> they are usually vendor C compilers
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16:01:06 <oerjan> finally i understand spanish names http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/?comic=27
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16:20:58 <quintopia> oerjan: i didn't realize anyone actually used Krita
16:23:59 <shachaf> spot of the oerjan, governor?
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16:28:04 <Taneb> Well, I am doing a talk on lens in about two hours
16:28:44 <Taneb> shachaf-style-esque slides
16:28:57 <Taneb> That are still being written
16:29:01 <shachaf> are the slides on the internet somewhere
16:35:06 <int-e> Nothing, I'm just going to give 3 talks on Sunday, that will be ... interesting.
16:35:16 <Taneb> What sort of subject?
16:36:03 <int-e> abstract rewriting, term rewriting. somewhere in the overlapping area of math and computer science.
16:36:30 <int-e> in any case, I'm working on slides.
16:37:06 <Taneb> I've got slides describing up to "Iso", now working on Prisms
16:37:39 <shachaf> whoa, you're talking about profunctors?
16:37:45 <Taneb> shachaf, not in great detail
16:38:55 <shachaf> edwardk: Did you see the discussion yesterday about void?
16:39:08 <edwardk> what new noise machine got started
16:39:22 <shachaf> The question was whether there's anything stopping void from reexporting Void from base.
16:39:30 <shachaf> It wasn't much of a discussion, really.
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16:44:13 <oerjan> edwardk: well it started with a SO question about why absurd undefined looped infinitely (which it can in some versions and circumstances)
16:44:34 <edwardk> it shouldn't loop any more
16:44:42 <edwardk> we always force the thunk we're given now
16:44:56 <edwardk> shachaf: oh, wait, doesn't Void do that yet?
16:45:08 <oerjan> edwardk: no, because seq doesn't enforce ordering
16:45:28 <edwardk> on ghc >= 7.9 it re-exports
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16:45:44 <shachaf> edwardk++ for fixing it retroactively.
16:45:59 <shachaf> https://github.com/ekmett/void/blob/master/void.cabal confirms it hth
16:46:07 <edwardk> oerjan: have you observed the spin you worry about?
16:46:18 <edwardk> we could use pseq but that has complications
16:46:27 <Taneb> edwardk, that seems a very arbitrary upper bound on base
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16:47:01 <edwardk> it inherited it from bytestring i think
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16:48:01 <Taneb> bytestring has base < 5
16:48:02 <edwardk> using pseq means it needs parallel, which means you lose it in base
16:48:10 <oerjan> edwardk: oh i was looking at the module source, not the cabal file
16:48:40 <oerjan> the module has no indication of the reexport
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16:48:55 <edwardk> Taneb: back in the stoneage IIRC one of the fairly standard dons packages used to use base < 10
16:49:12 <edwardk> oerjan: it has no way to =)
16:49:26 <edwardk> the indication is it is in an old-src dir
16:49:28 <shachaf> edwardk: Sounds like pseq should be in base.
16:49:34 <shachaf> It's not really a parallel thing.
16:49:53 <Taneb> edwardk, right, I guess
16:50:04 <oerjan> Taneb: int-e: good luck
16:50:06 <edwardk> feel free to chase after creating an issue and even using this to motivate it if you like
16:50:52 <shachaf> Yay, that sounds fun and productive.
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16:54:24 <quintopia> let it be known that dropping a pint glass on your toe is extremely painful even from one foot up
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17:12:26 <FreeFull> That's because glass is a dense material
17:13:26 <zzo38> I might be able to make a better kind of HSTS specification. The same header format is used for compatibility, but many of meanings are different.
17:15:19 <shachaf> Isn't that the opposite of compatibility?
17:25:09 <zzo38> From the server's perspective it is the same
17:30:03 <fizzie> I assume your version will allow the user to override everything?
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17:32:44 <zzo38> Yes, that is one thing it does
17:33:25 <zzo38> But there are several other things too
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17:41:08 <zzo38> In contexts where an absolute URL may be entered without the scheme (which results in not even a valid absolute URL), the automatic redirect to HTTPS still applies. For example in many browsers if you enter something that looks like a domain name into the location bar it will automatically add "http://" in front; it will put "https://" in front instead if HSTS is enabled. The user can still delete this though.
17:41:21 <zzo38> Also it does not apply if the user explicitly enters "http://".
17:43:38 <zzo38> Other things might or might not automatically change depending on user configuration, but even if most features are disabled, it still causes cookies, whitelists, etc associated with the site to store the certificate as well, and if it does not match the cookies aren't sent (the user can still manually edit the cookies to specify the new certificate if wanted).
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17:49:46 <fizzie> Does that mean that a website by default loses access to cookies when it updates its certificate?
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19:00:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it compatible both ways?
19:00:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: as in, between old servers and new clients, or between odl clients and new servers
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19:41:33 <zzo38> fizzie: Well, the cookie would apply to all the same certificates that the HSTS appplies to.
19:42:42 <zzo38> So if only one certificate is pinned, then yes it will lose the cookies by default.
19:43:27 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, both ways. Although if a server wants to enable *only* the new way and not the old way for client features, it can call the header "X-Strict-Transport-Security".
19:46:13 <zzo38> HSTS supercookies also no longer work in this new way.
19:47:18 <Taneb> shachaf, http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/LT.pdf
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19:48:36 <zzo38> So this cookie disabling can also depend on whether HPKP is used together with HSTS or not, as well as the lifetime of various certificates, and so on.
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19:54:26 <zzo38> My own kind of HSTS would also automatically enable secure-only on all cookies for that server as well as prevent cookies set over an insecure connection from affecting the secure connection by default (although they can still be resent over an insecure connection if the user has not disabled cookies for that domain over insecure connections).
19:59:04 <zzo38> Deleting cookies by default when the certificate is change can also help so that they are not sent if the domain is purchased by a new company. Such certificate pinning can be used also in script whitelists and so on as well.
20:01:11 <shachaf> Taneb: where's "shachaf saves the day" twh
20:03:49 <fizzie> Yes, I was about to say that HSTS and HPKP are entirely (well, FSVO) separate.
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20:06:10 <zzo38> It also depends on what ciphers are used and so on. So, if it is connect with HSTS and HPKP with TLS v2, and then later on it is TLS v1, you will get a warning message (which can still be overridden by the user though; if they do the cookies are gone though unless the user manually edits the cookies).
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20:09:52 <zzo38> So not only cookies are affected, but also whitelists and HTTP authentication methods.
20:14:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: so will you document this somewhere, and make a reference implementation in a http[s] client library?
20:14:52 <zzo38> But if you want real security, you should use neither HTTP nor HTTPS anyways; the mess they make can cause other problems with security.
20:18:33 <zzo38> Yes I should document it, although I might not necessarily implement it. Anyways the implementation can differ depending on some things; for example the client might not be a web-browser.
20:19:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's why I said "reference implementation". I don't expect you to implement it in all https-capable clients ever.
20:19:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: eg. you could try to implement it in libcurl (if cookie jar is enabled or something like that)
20:20:15 <b_jonas> or in whatever library you prefer
20:20:21 <b_jonas> there's ton of https client libraries
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21:32:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43640&oldid=43600 * Hppavilion1 * (+360) Criticism section
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22:01:53 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is the vertex graph of an icosahedron planar? <-- specifically, it's essentially a graph on a sphere and those are planar
22:02:11 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> Is the vertex graph of an icosahedron planar? <-- specifically, it's essentially a graph on a sphere and those are planar
22:17:55 <FreeFull> All regular polyhedra have planar graphs
22:19:11 <FreeFull> I think something torus-like won't have a planar vertex graph
22:22:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43641&oldid=43640 * Hppavilion1 * (+917) Added example code to criticism section
22:23:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[LOLCODE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43642&oldid=43641 * Hppavilion1 * (-21) Fixed output
22:25:03 <shachaf> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Weirdlang looks a lot like a category
22:25:45 <shachaf> Saying "X is technically a Y" when Y is a term that you've invented is a little fishy.
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22:30:55 <hppavilion[1]> However, Weirdlang is a term I invented to correspond to a concept I'm pretty sure all of us already acknowledged
22:31:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43643&oldid=43610 * Hppavilion1 * (+7) Removed made up terms :P
22:35:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric algorithm]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43644 * Hppavilion1 * (+368) Created page
22:37:38 <oerjan> <FreeFull> I think something torus-like won't have a planar vertex graph <-- well the four-color theorem doesn't apply to a torus, so...
22:40:55 <FreeFull> oerjan: It's 7 colours for a torus
22:42:22 <oerjan> hm a more obvious proof is that you can easily put K_3,3 on the torus
22:43:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dropsort]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43645 * Hppavilion1 * (+645) Created page
22:43:24 <oerjan> put 3 vertices on the outside edge, 3 on the inside edge, connect each to 2 over the top and 1 under the bottom, e.g.
22:43:45 <oerjan> hppavilion[1]: um what exactly are you doing
22:44:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Dropsort]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43646&oldid=43645 * Oerjan * (-3) /* Algorithmic Description */ thus
22:44:47 <oerjan> cannot use spaces, apparently
22:48:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Langar.io]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43647 * InputUsername * (+5465) Created Langar.io, a language inspired by Agar.io (I'm so sorry for this)
22:48:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43648&oldid=43594 * InputUsername * (+16) Added Langar.io to the language list
22:49:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Langar.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43649&oldid=43647 * InputUsername * (+10) Fixed category
22:52:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43650&oldid=43558 * InputUsername * (+120) Added Langar.io to my user page
22:54:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Weirdlang]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43651&oldid=43643 * Hppavilion1 * (+330) Not Evil Section.
22:55:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:InputUsername]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43652 * Hppavilion1 * (+355) IRC invite
22:58:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Langar.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43653&oldid=43649 * InputUsername * (+10) Fixed external resource
23:00:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Langar.io]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43654 * Hppavilion1 * (+41) Sorry for putting this here, but I doubt he was going to check it otherwise
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23:42:34 <nortti> http://hackaday.com/2013/01/29/genetic-algorithms-become-programmers-themselves/
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23:53:08 <lambdabot> CYUL 292300Z 20008KT 15SM FEW035TCU FEW150 30/23 A2982 RMK TCU1AC1 TCU TR AC TR SLP098 DENSITY ALT 2000FT
23:54:11 <boily> bon... sœr... ja...........
23:55:07 <lambdabot> ENVA 292320Z 36004KT 9999 BKN021 13/10 Q1003 RMK WIND 670FT 28008KT
23:55:34 <lambdabot> KOAK 292253Z 30014KT 10SM CLR 24/15 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP122 T02390150
23:55:48 <lambdabot> KSJC 292253Z 30012KT 10SM CLR 31/12 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP114 T03060122
23:56:07 <boily> 31/12! woaaahhh...
23:56:08 <oerjan> InputUsername: the other people are dying of heat while i'm just cooling it
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00:09:43 <lambdabot> EGPH 292350Z VRB02KT 9999 BKN025 BKN049 11/10 Q1015
00:11:18 <oerjan> i see edinburgh named its airport after you
00:12:13 <oren> is a person from edinburgh a edinburgher?
00:13:14 <oerjan> they were until hamburg got a global treaty forbidding it hth
00:18:58 <boily> Phellontom_Helloover. you moved?
00:23:46 <oerjan> clearly he was aiming for a sunny holiday with his family but missed horribly
00:30:07 <boily> meanwhile, just stumbled on an englishless wikipédia article: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-core
00:35:17 <boily> oh. mislocated you. sorry, my bad hth
00:38:33 <zzo38> The Xlib documentation does not seem to explain very well how to make a picture
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00:53:03 <boily> @tell InputUsername pfeuh. not a valid reason. we're waiting for you to come back.
00:54:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Langar.io]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43655&oldid=43653 * InputUsername * (+12) Fixed GitHub link
00:57:04 <oerjan> 3 AM and the night is still young
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01:04:01 <boily> helleu helleu helleu ♪
01:12:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43656 * Hppavilion1 * (+1691) Created Page, utterly incomplete, more to come.
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01:13:20 <boily> helloppavilion[1]!
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01:32:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43657&oldid=43656 * Hppavilion1 * (+787) Added more commands (Still WIP)
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02:40:21 <oerjan> @tell edwardk i saw this post https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/libraries/2015-July/026061.html i feel like you are pointing out the real elephant in the room for getting _any_ nontrivial (i.e. not just syntactic sugar) GHC extension standardized by this point...
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02:53:25 <tswett> So I know more or less how to find a ratio of integers that most closely approximates an irrational ratio.
02:53:45 <tswett> Now I wanna know: how do you find a ratio of integers that most closely approximates an irrational ratio of *three* numbers?
02:54:12 <tswett> Like, for example, the ratio 2:3:5 is a pretty good approximation to the ratio 2.1:3.1:5.1.
02:54:35 <tswett> 100:314:272 is a good approximation to 1:pi:e. Get what I'm saying?
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02:55:09 <tswett> Given three positive numbers a, b, c, I want to multiply them all by some constant k, such that ka, kb, and kc are all close to integers.
02:55:12 <tswett> But I also want k to be small.
02:55:36 <tswett> How can I find the best values of k?
02:56:25 <tswett> Yet another statement...
02:57:10 <tswett> I know of a line in 3-dimensional space which passes through the origin. How do I find lattice points which are close to the line, but also close to the origin?
03:00:02 <oerjan> i'm not sure that's a line
03:00:36 <tswett> The line traced by (ka, kb, kc) as k varies? That's a line.
03:01:14 <coppro> tswett: define a fitness metric and then do an optimization problem on it?
03:01:23 <oerjan> but you also want k to be integer
03:01:32 <tswett> k doesn't need to be an integer.
03:02:06 <tswett> I guess given a candidate lattice point, the error can be represented as a vector. It's just the displacement between the lattice point and the closest point on the line.
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03:03:11 <tswett> The space of all possible error vectors is 2-dimensional.
03:04:42 <tswett> So if you have a bunch of candidate lattice points, you know all their error vectors. If you have two error vectors of approximately the same length pointing in approximately opposite directions, you can add the lattice points together, and the error vector will just be the sum of the error vectors.
03:13:58 <zzo38> What is the algorithm to figure out the smallest way to encode a picture in Sixel format?
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03:26:47 <oerjan> it's, alas, derivative
03:27:33 <oerjan> fungot: you stay right where you are, ok?
03:27:33 <fungot> oerjan: but it will suck, it's inevitable. :p like i heard last night there was someone asking about currying in scheme
03:28:06 <oerjan> fungot: well you can move about a bit, just not run off
03:28:06 <fungot> oerjan: specifically page 6 of that pdf. funny as hell. i totally misread that homepage.
03:28:22 <fungot> oerjan: it is a difference if you provide something that's as powerful as c, so essentially, the same way
03:29:30 <shachaf> fungot seems unusually lucid today
03:29:31 <fungot> shachaf: it is memoized, and then pointers. it'd need to be able to tweak every bit of performance out if i get out
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03:39:39 <tswett> Aha, I have discovered the ULTIMATE MICROTUNING.
03:39:43 <tswett> 848 equal temperament.
03:43:00 <tswett> An octave is exactly 848 steps. A perfect fifth is 496.048 steps, and a major third is 272.995 steps.
03:43:30 <tswett> These are better. Let me demonstrate.
03:44:13 <tswett> A perfect fifth is 701.955 cents, and a major third is 386.314 cents.
03:44:43 <tswett> So cents do a poor job of representing intervals as almost-integers.
03:45:35 <tswett> If you round everything to the nearest integer, then one major third is 386 cents, whereas two major thirds is 773 cents. How horrible!
03:45:47 <shachaf> Oh, that's what you were asking about ratios for.
03:46:04 <shachaf> But why stop at fifths and thirds?
03:46:34 <tswett> Because my ears are 5-limit.
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03:47:13 <tswett> With 848 equal temperament, you'd have to stick eleven perfect fifths on top of each other in order to find something for which rounding error is significant.
03:54:25 <shachaf> http://ktla.com/2015/07/29/after-20-years-naugles-is-back-in-southern-california/
03:54:30 <shachaf> Naugles is making a comeback.
03:54:42 <shachaf> If you're in the area, please report. twh
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05:40:41 <Walpurgisnacht> https://causecatyljan.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/image.jpg
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06:25:12 <zzo38> How do you draw a picture with Xlib? What I tried doesn't work; the screen is blank
06:50:02 <zzo38> Now I got a segmentation fault
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07:26:13 <zzo38> Now I managed to make a PNG displaying program with Xlib, although it might not be as portable as it should be
07:26:19 <zzo38> It is much faster than ImageMagick though.
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07:53:06 <zzo38> That one I don't know.
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07:55:09 <zzo38> I looked it up with "aptitude show" command. Then use Imlib2, it seem like
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07:55:57 <zzo38> My own program is using LodePNG to load the picture, and then I have to change the pixels from RGB to BGR order in order to display it correctly on X (I don't know how portable this is though).
08:02:26 <izabera> ulam(1) = 1 ulam(2) = 2 ulam(n) = minimum number > ulam(n-1) that can be expressed as the sum of two distinct ulam numbers in exactly one way
08:02:39 <izabera> can you find an algorithm to print the first n ulam numbers in O(n) ?
08:12:04 <myname> oeis doesn't look that way
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08:36:50 <zzo38> I thought of another way to represent a list of natural numbers as a single natural number
08:42:28 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: is your method based on a recursive invocation of pair primitives or not?
08:45:41 <zzo38> My method is bijective though
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09:28:25 <mroman> Somebody in kentucky shot down a drone.
09:30:54 <mroman> although somewhat dangerous.
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09:38:22 <fizzie> mroman: http://www.loweringthebar.net/2015/07/trespassing-drone.html too.
09:38:41 <fizzie> [[ In a one-sentence order, the local small-claims court held that the man "acted unreasonably" when he directed his son to blow the drone out of the sky with a 12-gauge (which his son promptly did). ]]
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09:44:50 <mroman> fizzie: I can see that it is trespassing of some sort
09:44:56 <mroman> but you can't really do anything about it.
09:45:07 <mroman> because shooting it with a gun is really unreasonable
09:45:28 <mroman> although it is not very likely but bullets falling down can cause damage
09:45:47 <mroman> if you shoot it more elliptically then that likelihood increases a lot.
09:46:30 <mroman> and I mean... it's up to x-feet that belongs to your "privacy zone"
09:46:42 <mroman> drones could just fly higher and have cameras with good optical zoom
09:47:32 <mroman> the most reasonable thing would be to ban flying drones with cameras and/or microphones
09:47:45 <mroman> without an explicit permit
09:48:04 <mroman> and put a huge fine on offenders
09:48:17 <mroman> because it's going to be hard to track them :D
09:52:43 <Jafet> Perhaps we should broadcast no-trespassing signs from WiFi access points.
09:52:59 <mroman> and that would do what?
09:55:48 <Jafet> About as much as a camera drone ban, I suppose.
09:56:21 <mroman> if you ban them you have legal "pressure"
09:56:46 <mroman> just because a law is hard to enforce isn't a reason not to have it
10:12:58 <Jafet> Or just apply the same rules as for manned aircraft -- restriction to airways and ATC instructions.
10:27:31 <izabera> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/37438/generate-ulam-numbers i found this and the perl solution is much more readable than most of the others
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10:36:22 <fizzie> "Reason for rollback: rolling back rollback."
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10:42:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * SwaggerMan * New user account
10:54:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43658 * SwaggerMan * (+309) Created page with "'''Hi! im working on an [[Esoteric programming language|esoteric programming language]] called ''Pythagoras+''! which is a brainfuck-based language!''' {| class="wikitable" |-..."
10:56:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43659&oldid=43658 * SwaggerMan * (+67)
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11:00:12 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
11:00:44 <boily> I want the old original ugly design! my bank site has no right being all web2.0y!
11:01:04 <boily> now I'm lost. I want disgusting, horrendous and FUNCTIONAL design.
11:03:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43660&oldid=43659 * SwaggerMan * (+6050)
11:04:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43661&oldid=43660 * SwaggerMan * (+26)
11:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43662&oldid=43661 * SwaggerMan * (+1) /* Pythagoras+ */
11:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43663&oldid=43662 * SwaggerMan * (+42) /* Hello, World! in Pythagoras+ */
11:12:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43664&oldid=43663 * SwaggerMan * (+17) /* Pythagoras+ */
11:12:50 <myname> such a useless language
11:13:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SwaggerMan]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43665&oldid=43664 * SwaggerMan * (+1)
11:15:04 <mroman> and "working on" means "i'll whip it up in 15 minutes"
11:16:49 <boily> mrelloman. the 90s had at least one redeeming point: computers had TURBO buttons on them!
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11:20:21 <Jafet> This century has no need for encabulated computers.
11:22:33 <mroman> I've always wondered what the TURBO button did
11:23:14 <mroman> for games that rely on cycle times
11:24:27 <Jafet> In the future, perhaps 144Hz monitors will have turbo buttons on them.
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11:37:25 <fizzie> My 386sx/16 had a software-based TURBO switch.
11:37:45 <fizzie> There was a .com file you ran which twiddled some nonstandard I/O ports to switch between 8 MHz and 16 MHz modes.
11:38:02 <fizzie> Almost like cpufreq stuff these days.
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11:40:57 <Jafet> I prefer the opposite effect to TURBO, Turbo Boost.
11:41:20 <fizzie> Also it wasn't any garden-variety 386, it was a "Hyundai Super-386SE".
11:42:19 <fizzie> Had a hard disk so large (40 MB!), I had to split it to two partitions.
11:46:49 <mroman> you could just interleave the .com file with nop instructions
11:47:04 <mroman> if you adjust for jumps accordingly
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14:53:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43666&oldid=43650 * InputUsername * (-20) Updated user page
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15:48:42 <shachaf> Taneb: how did your lens talk go twh
15:49:04 <Taneb> Other than misspelling Laarhoven
15:50:48 <shachaf> twen won't be happy when to hear that
15:51:03 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
15:52:02 <shachaf> swat of the oerjan, governor?
15:52:18 <oerjan> i'd switch out a vowel but it doesn't matter in hebrew anyway
15:52:30 <oerjan> also, what's the reference
15:53:14 <oerjan> i fail at googling it again
15:53:30 <shachaf> hey, http://dl.dropbox.com/u/13786158/shachaf.png is gone :'(
15:54:07 <oerjan> your disguise has been destroyed!
15:55:09 <oerjan> don't worry, i can still find it on stackoverflow
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15:57:19 <oerjan> the picture i'm assuming was on that link
15:58:00 <oerjan> http://stackoverflow.com/users/712548/shachaf
15:58:04 <shachaf> That link was the self-portrait monqy drew of me.
15:58:33 <oerjan> hm if so i've forgotten
15:59:09 <shachaf> I wonder whether mnoqy still has a copy I could get hold of somehow.
16:02:18 <Taneb> oerjan, I was writing slides offline and misremembered Twan's surname as Leerhoven
16:02:35 <Taneb> So I'd like to retroactively intercept that swat
16:04:17 * oerjan swats Taneb radioactively -----###
16:07:50 <shachaf> Taneb: i believe the swat was for the joke and not for the mistake
16:08:42 <shachaf> https://mail.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell/2015-July/024642.html tdnh
16:09:09 <Taneb> iirc there is a racetrack or something called Haskell
16:09:10 <shachaf> I guess that email is about http://bigstory.ap.org/article/fc3188c26a544a0ab7a5da7e6b4d477a/american-pharoah-race-monmouth-park-haskell
16:09:18 <Taneb> As well as a university and a rugby player
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16:11:24 <lambdabot> KOAK 301553Z 30006KT 10SM OVC009 18/14 A3005 RMK AO2 SLP173 T01780144
16:17:41 <lambdabot> ENVA 301550Z 28012KT 9999 VCSH FEW025 BKN039 12/08 Q1004 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 28016KT
16:17:52 <lambdabot> LOWI 301550Z VRB02KT 9999 SCT035 BKN050 17/12 Q1016 NOSIG
16:18:37 <lambdabot> EDDT 301550Z 29010KT 250V320 9999 FEW048 SCT075 BKN094 18/07 Q1011 TEMPO 29015G25KT
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17:14:49 <zzo38> I can tell you how I represent the list of natural numbers as a single natural number. From right to left, you make the bits of the number: First the bijective base-2 but use only clear bits, and then one set bit, and then the bijective base-2 with clear bits for 1 and set bits for 2. And then you put the rest of the list (if any).
17:16:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:SwaggerMan]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43667 * Hppavilion1 * (+250) Recommended moving Pythagoras+
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17:35:34 <mauris> zzo38: looks correct to me
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17:36:01 <mauris> that's a confusing way to explain it, though
17:43:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43668&oldid=43657 * Hppavilion1 * (+3466) Wrote instruction pages and some minor new instructions.
17:44:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43669&oldid=43668 * Hppavilion1 * (-20) Fixed formatting (whoops)
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17:52:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43670&oldid=43669 * Hppavilion1 * (+797) Procedures
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17:54:06 <hppavilion[1]> We know you're a data storage system, but you give us NO clue as to how we should retrieve you
17:54:15 <int-e> constants don't really need names, do they...
17:54:28 <constant> hppavilion[1]: my value is nil
17:54:40 <constant> but really, I'm a mutable constant
17:54:51 <constant> so no promises that it will remain
17:56:09 <hppavilion[1]> Would you happen to know of or have any ideas for esoteric algorithms or data structures?
17:57:51 <int-e> constant: sounds like an implementation-defined value to me
17:58:47 <int-e> . o O ( binomial skip trie )
17:58:51 <constant> hppavilion[1]: a probabilistic sorting algorithm: 1/3 of the time in order; 1/3 of the time reverse order; 1/3 of the time random
17:59:16 <hppavilion[1]> That's more of an output of an algorithm than an algorithm itself...
17:59:42 <constant> search stackoverflow for "algorithm"
17:59:55 <constant> run it on first google result for "hippo"
18:00:17 <constant> I have more ideas if you want to hear them
18:01:10 <int-e> but it's always the same one?
18:01:30 <hppavilion[1]> C) What int-e said. Won't we have different first Google results?
18:01:41 <int-e> . o O ( "Duck! is what you say when you invoke the spell, not a material component." )
18:01:56 <constant> anyways, now to continue to trying to get swi-prolog isntalled on el capitan
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18:02:30 <constant> int-e: fixing apple's system headers? no
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18:02:47 * int-e had to $searchengine el capitan...
18:02:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:WASD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43671&oldid=34406 * Hppavilion1 * (+127) /* Purpose */ new section
18:03:10 <constant> but I have an apple for travel
18:03:55 <int-e> (haha, only serious)
18:05:00 <hppavilion[1]> YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY I'm not the only one with trouble installing programs on machines. OS-wise
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18:17:07 <shachaf> grr, can't trust tab completion
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18:22:57 <fungot> int-e: an award for that indentation
18:23:07 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
18:25:45 <tswett> I agree with fungot. int-es indentation was incredible.
18:25:46 <fungot> tswett: yes, a very silly way: by implementing another turing machine in it. :)
18:26:13 <tswett> I mean, the way that int-e interpreted another Turing machine in the indentation? It was very silly, but incredible.
18:26:21 <tswett> s/interpreted/implemented/
18:26:44 <int-e> yeah, I'm amazing... wait, what happened here?
18:26:54 <fungot> int-e: its ban time!!! eheheheheeheheheh the guy
18:27:27 <tswett> Isn't there someone here that was working on a way of doing exact real computation of some kind?
18:28:28 <hppavilion[1]> What would be a weird data structure to base a filesystem around?
18:28:55 <tswett> Like, using something—I feel like it might have been similar to continued fractions or something—that can represent a lot of different real numbers exactly.
18:28:55 <hppavilion[1]> I mean, I guess an exposed linked list would be weird
18:29:03 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: a queue would be pretty weird.
18:29:13 <tswett> There are only two operations: "create a new file" and "read the oldest file and delete it".
18:29:25 <tswett> Something *really* weird, you say?
18:29:39 <hppavilion[1]> What's the weirdest data structure you serve here?
18:30:14 <tswett> The filesystem is a polynomial. You create a file by multiplying the polynomial by (x - a), for some constant a. You delete a file by dividing by (x - a).
18:30:33 <tswett> In order to get a list of all files, all you have to do is solve the polynomial.
18:31:55 <tswett> Ooh, and here's another idea.
18:31:59 <tswett> The "canyon filesystem".
18:32:04 <tswett> It's similar to the queue filesystem.
18:32:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric Operating System/File System]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43672 * Hppavilion1 * (+198) Created Page
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18:32:55 <tswett> The canyon filesystem has two lines carrying analog signals, one for input and the other for output.
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18:33:57 <tswett> When you put some input in, you eventually get the same input out, except—just like shouting into a canyon—echo and/or reverberation (and/or frequency filtering et/or cetera) are applied.
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18:36:07 <tswett> So if you just try to store data as an arbitrary analog signal without any processing, and you try to store data long-term by repeatedly feeding it back into the canyon, it'll get more and more distorted.
18:36:48 <hppavilion[1]> Perhaps we use an And-Or tree? It's usually used for representing probems...
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18:39:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esoteric Operating System/File System]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43673&oldid=43672 * Hppavilion1 * (+62) Noted EsoDSes
18:42:33 <hppavilion[1]> I suppose we could go for something less esoteric and just use a multidimensional Python-style array
18:44:58 <hppavilion[1]> You wouldn't need to name the file itself to access it
18:46:44 <hppavilion[1]> OR we could do some weird hybrid depending on level
18:47:04 <ais523> the problem with analog storage is that you can't do reshaping
18:47:10 <ais523> the only reason we use digital storage at all is that you can
18:47:27 <hppavilion[1]> C/Tableindex/Treelocation/1 for the front of the dequeue, 0 for the back/
18:48:31 <ais523> why do you care so much about making the path look like a Windows path (a modern one with forward slashes, at that)
18:49:13 <hppavilion[1]> Well because I don't feel it'd work very well if it doesn't have nesting
18:49:26 <hppavilion[1]> I'm just using the windows path because that's just syntax, not semantics
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18:49:41 <InputUsername> Not using nesting would be fun and esoteric, right?
18:50:02 <hppavilion[1]> Not using nesting would put eveything in the same folder
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18:52:48 <ais523> why not have a tag-based filesystem? where you can tag a file with a number of tags, and search by tag
18:52:53 <hppavilion[1]> Also, we can't just use an array (associative or otherwise) for the filesys, as that wouldn't be soy enough
18:52:59 <ais523> a hierarchial filesysetm is a special case of that
18:53:31 <hppavilion[1]> But that would be very, VERY slow and inefficient on large filesystems
18:54:18 <hppavilion[1]> OK, what philosophy should we base the Filesystem after?
18:55:03 <int-e> . o O ( is there any use for copy on read semantics? )
18:55:36 <hppavilion[1]> Is that a question about the filesystem or some other project?
18:55:56 <hppavilion[1]> Because I'm having trouble understanding what that meant
19:18:50 <int-e> hppavilion[1]: I was trying to think of a file system related concept that might conceivably be complemented.
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19:26:36 <int-e> how about having initially full, infinite binary trees as file, and a write operation that allows you to prune the tree (cutting off a subtree)...
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19:27:45 <int-e> (it would be a "truncate only file")
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21:12:44 <FreeFull> http://nikhanselmann.com/public/etc/thesis/
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21:23:23 <izabera> how do i tell if my gawk was compiled with bignum support?
21:24:48 <izabera> ah i tried with 2 ^ 10000 and it can only compute it with -M
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21:34:16 <FreeFull> izabera: Some people would probably argue awk is esoteric =P
21:35:01 <izabera> the weirdest thing in awk is how you declare local variables
21:35:27 <izabera> funcname ( a , b , c ) { code here } then you call it like funcname ( a , b ) and c is local
21:40:54 <mauris> the string concatenation operator being is pretty weird too
21:43:14 <izabera> a = a b == $a .= $b in php
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21:54:48 <oerjan> <int-e> . o O ( binomial skip trie ) <-- is that a data structure or a novelty dance twh
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21:57:25 <shachaf> <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
21:57:59 <shachaf> <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
21:58:12 <shachaf> oerjan: I feel like some of these wisdom entries are kind of unhelpful.
21:58:23 <oerjan> i can't possibly imagine why
21:58:29 <shachaf> also the ch is a uvular fricative hth
21:59:39 <oerjan> fizzie: HackEgo ran away, he bravely ran away away
21:59:50 <shachaf> The other day I was talking about
21:59:55 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_palato-alveolar_sibilant
22:00:02 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voiceless_alveolo-palatal_sibilant
22:00:27 <shachaf> It's like these people are parodying themselves.
22:00:35 <shachaf> I can't even hear the difference between the two.
22:00:57 <shachaf> (But Russian speakers can.)
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22:04:30 <shachaf> oerjan: what are you snickering about
22:04:44 <tswett> I'm writing assembly, and I want to put A on the stack, then put B on the stack, then take A off the stack, then take B off the stack.
22:04:50 <shachaf> oerjan: is it time to go snicker-snack?
22:05:07 <tswett> Hungry? Eat a snicker-snack.
22:05:33 <shachaf> That's not a very woeful situation.
22:05:33 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
22:07:04 <tswett> Specifically: I want to put all registers onto the stack, then change to a different stack, then put a couple more registers on the stack, then pop all the registers off the stack, then pop the desired registers off the stack...
22:07:09 <tswett> Come to think of it, it's obvious.
22:07:19 <tswett> I just need to put the registers I want to save into the appropriate location in the stack.
22:07:37 <shachaf> Are you implementing threads?
22:08:41 <shachaf> Userspace threads under amd64-linux-gnu?
22:09:00 <tswett> Nope, kernelspace threads under... nothing.
22:09:37 <shachaf> Here's the code I wrote, kind of: https://github.com/rethinkdb/rethinkdb/blob/next/src/arch/runtime/context_switching.cc
22:09:46 <shachaf> Looks like it's been heavily modified since then.
22:10:08 <shachaf> But kernelspace threads are harder.
22:10:31 <shachaf> Are you switching address spaces too or something?
22:12:04 <oerjan> shachaf: as usual when reading about that sound in wikipedia i end up completely confused about what the norwegian sj-sound is supposed to be.
22:14:19 <oerjan> i am starting to think sj and rs don't represent different sounds at all, at least in southeastern dialects
22:15:29 <oerjan> but i keep getting the impression that whoever adds the norwegian information to these articles isn't quite competent
22:17:03 <oerjan> anyway, the two articles you linked and the norwegian phonology article have three different suggestions.
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22:17:43 <shachaf> what about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sj-sound hth
22:17:59 <tswett> shachaf: nope, I'm pretty much only switching some registers.
22:18:23 <oerjan> that's swedish only. i've been training on pronouncing it, but it's definitely not a norwegian sound.
22:18:32 <shachaf> I can barely distinguish voiceless velar/uvular fricative.
22:19:25 <shachaf> For that matter, I often hear alveolar trill as uvular trill. :-(
22:19:46 <oerjan> i agree on the first but not the second
22:20:07 <shachaf> Sure, because you can pronounce alveolar trill.
22:20:36 <oerjan> well it's of course _usually_ a flap in norwegian...
22:21:00 <oerjan> but adding a few extra trills isn't that hard.
22:21:19 <oerjan> like a trill but just one :P
22:21:29 <shachaf> Sure, I think that's what Imean.
22:21:37 <shachaf> Modern Hebrew 'r' is usually voiced uvular fricative, I think.
22:25:03 <oerjan> i'd been assuming it was an alveolar flap/trill, probably by default
22:25:36 <shachaf> when did you have the occasion to make assumptions about this particular consonant
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22:30:38 <oerjan> lessee, we learned some hebrew songs in school, which would of course be completely unreliable on this front. and then there's the eurovision song contest back in the day. i suppose i haven't really been paying attention enough to pick it up reliably.
22:31:31 <shachaf> i learned some hebrew songs in school too
22:31:42 <shachaf> don't know much about the eurovision, though
22:32:48 <oerjan> i found one of shalom chaverim but i don't think it's sung by israelis...
22:33:23 <oerjan> top comment is relevant :P
22:33:37 <oerjan> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRZaop5ZoJA
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22:34:09 <boily> sweet fungot in the bit bucket, please have mercy...
22:34:10 <fungot> boily: and a spear at its throat, you kill it, you can also program by telling it stuff that can be changed
22:34:19 <lambdabot> ENVA 302220Z 30016KT 9999 -SHRA BKN016 BKN024 10/08 Q1006 RMK WIND 670FT 26012KT
22:34:25 <boily> fungot: yup. going to kill that weather before it gets the better of me.
22:34:26 <fungot> boily: it seemed like a circuit simulator, and i'm afraid it would be awkward, as it has the same title by all of the above, darcs seems simplest)
22:36:17 <boily> tonight's diacritical soup was particularly tasty.
22:36:34 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure that youtube did it alveolarly, but i need a more confirmed israeli version...
22:40:58 <boily> fungot: please stop leaking onto oerjan. he doesn't make sense.
22:40:58 <fungot> boily: you can compute the sk combinator expressions from the lc expression??, you are done
22:41:10 * boily computes the oerjan's sk combinator
22:41:17 <oerjan> boily: you are just failing at logreading hth
22:42:37 <oerjan> i suppose an uvular r would be logical for original yiddish-speaking communities, or something.
22:43:16 <oerjan> let's see what wikipedia says
22:44:56 <oerjan> shachaf: i suppose this confirms it https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Hebrew_phonology#endnote_3
22:47:12 <boily> quinthellopiaaaaaaaaaghghghghfhrhghfhgiurhghghrgh :D
22:50:04 <tswett> So %esp points to the top thing on the stack, right? Then 4(%esp) would point to the fifth byte from the top, 8(%esp) to the ninth byte, and so on?
22:51:52 <tswett> No wait, (%esp) would refer to the top thing on the stack.
22:52:39 <tswett> And %esp points to it. 4(%esp) isn't generally a pointer.
22:54:19 <oerjan> quintopia: i think boily's portmachine is leaking something
22:55:01 <shachaf> spot of the phonology, governor?
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22:55:47 <Taneb> tswett, that would depend which way the stack is
22:55:54 * oerjan gives shachaf a spot of the saucepan ===\__/
22:56:05 <tswett> Well, this is x86. The stack is only ever one way, isn't it?
22:56:13 <fizzie> tswett: You can DIY if you really want.
22:56:14 <Taneb> I don't know x86, like, at all
22:56:19 <shachaf> esp is just a register like any other
22:56:21 <fizzie> But that's correct as far as the push/pop instructions go.
22:56:24 <tswett> The bottom of the stack has the highest addresses, the top has the lowest addresses.
22:56:24 <shachaf> as long as you don't use push/pop/call/ret/etc.
22:56:37 <tswett> shachaf: I'll make sure not to use push and pop and the like, then.
22:57:37 <boily> oerjan: those are unIPAifiable sounds. quintopia knows them.
22:57:41 <oerjan> shachaf: i find this spot meme to be scow hth
22:57:50 <boily> oerjan: also, is it a regulatory spotty saucepan?
22:58:04 <shachaf> oerjan: does it help if you imagine it being said in a thick american accent?
22:58:50 <oerjan> shachaf: darn that's got to be the problem, i was imagining really snobby queen's english
22:59:47 <tswett> Can the FLAGS register be used in push and pop instructions just like any other register?
22:59:49 <oerjan> boily: the saucepan abides no rules
23:00:14 <fizzie> tswett: No, there's a separate instruction for it.
23:00:25 <fizzie> pushf/pushfd/pushfq in Intel parlance.
23:00:57 <fizzie> Well, maybe that's a "yes" from another point of view. Depends on how you define "just like".
23:01:34 <shachaf> tswett: x86 is scow, use x86-64 instead hth
23:02:04 <fizzie> Also: you can turn one out of the lods/stos instructions into a stack operation for a stack that's growing to either direction, but they're not conveniently pairable: both post-{inc,dec}rement, and they use different implicit registers.
23:03:24 <oerjan> shachaf: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/dailydish/2012/04/a-spot-of-tea-pops-up-at-spice-station.html
23:03:51 <tswett> Dang, is this really all of the assembly I need?
23:04:40 <fizzie> shachaf: Your precious x86-64 doesn't even have pusha or aaa QED
23:04:45 <tswett> pushfd \ pushad \ xchg %edx, %esp \ mov %eax, 24(%esp) \ mov %ebx, 12(%esp) \ mov %edx, 16(%esp) \ popad \ popfd
23:05:05 <shachaf> fizzie: at least i have rip-relative addressing
23:05:26 <shachaf> the only reason i don't have pusha is that i have a zillion registers
23:05:44 <shachaf> more than can even fit in dram
23:06:27 <oerjan> shachaf: fascinating http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-spo3.htm
23:07:39 <shachaf> oerjan: you must know a lot more about spots than i do at this point
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23:07:55 <oerjan> so basically, it's so stereotypically british that soon only americans use it.
23:08:18 <shachaf> oerjan: the origin of this phrase was certain folks making fun of a british person
23:08:36 <shachaf> and it was said with a mock british accent of some sort
23:08:52 <shachaf> but then they were told not to make fun of british folks, so they started saying it in an american accent instead
23:09:26 <oerjan> say it in a politically correct accent, clearly
23:12:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:InputUsername]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43674&oldid=43666 * InputUsername * (+111) Added Underload interpreter
23:14:26 <Sgeo_> Perl 6 Junction, what's yoor function? Syntax sugar for a thing similar to the list monad
23:14:49 <Sgeo_> I don't know why I'm suddenly fascinated by Perl 6. Supposedly it's going to release at the end of the year
23:16:03 <oerjan> which year, is the question
23:16:59 <Sgeo_> Supposedly this year
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23:23:34 <Sgeo_> Most things inn Perl 6 are Any. Except Junctions. Anys and Junctions are Mu. I wonder if we could define our own non-Any that manipulates things around it when used as an argument the way junctions do
23:24:58 <Sgeo_> "My favorite suggestion in all of this was to make Perl 6 a pure functional language and introduce monads."
23:25:01 <Sgeo_> http://www.perl.com/pub/2005/02/p6pdigest/20050222.html
23:31:18 <coppro> I can't help but think of perl 6 as a giant joke any more
23:32:37 <coppro> "While one side believes that auto-threading repetition of sid effects will crash any database that interacts with Perl 6, the other side believes that requiring extra pragmas to unlock their full power will prevent junctions from curing cancer."
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23:39:51 <boily> is there any non-homeopathically statistically significant user base for perl 6?
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23:53:57 <oerjan> <tswett> Isn't there someone here that was working on a way of doing exact real computation of some kind? <-- rings a bell. some kind of continued fraction where the numbers were given by a polynomial?
23:54:20 <oerjan> so could do e.g. e and stuff
23:54:59 <oerjan> (and not just unbounded precision, but exact.)
23:55:20 <oerjan> but my memory of it is definitely not exact
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00:14:08 <hppavilion[1]> I had an idea for a sort of esoteric concept in programming
00:14:18 <hppavilion[1]> Somthing that could be put into libraries and such
00:16:14 <boily> hppavellon[1]. material time?
00:18:06 <boily> I would like to hear about iiiiit ♪
00:18:33 <hppavilion[1]> And this is probably going to sound pretty stupid once I say it
00:19:17 <hppavilion[1]> Time in computer science is typically represented as A) A number (for durations) or B) A point in time (for time/date)
00:19:38 <hppavilion[1]> My idea is basically a way to represent time in human terms
00:20:10 <hppavilion[1]> So to represent the duration of 5 minutes, 22 seconds (in python), one might use a list or set:
00:20:57 <hppavilion[1]> In this syntax, minute*5 returns a list of 5 minute() instances
00:21:45 <Taneb> That's more of a bag (or multiset)
00:23:13 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], I mean, there's no point in allowing [minute()*3, second()*12, minute()*4]
00:23:26 <Taneb> That's still 7 minutes and 12 seconds
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00:27:41 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], could you use this for other measurements?
00:27:58 <Taneb> Like [feet()*4, inch()*8]
00:30:27 <boily> [minute()*5, foot()*foot()*minute()*fungot()]
00:30:27 <fungot> boily: people dudes. only that code right there can see the bloom right
00:30:37 <boily> hppavilion[1]: you idea blooms. I approve.
00:30:40 <Taneb> And maybe inch() == millimetre()*25.6
00:30:48 <Taneb> boily, so, fungot is inverse area?
00:30:48 <fungot> Taneb: what is odd abpit tje irc protomilk
00:30:49 <boily> Tanelle. itym 25.4.
00:31:09 <boily> it's abpit tje irc hth
00:31:09 <Taneb> boily, maybe, I don't remember the precise conversion on the tenth of millimeters
00:31:20 <hppavilion[1]> The only problem with this as an Esoteric library is it could be potentially useful for better undersanding code efor some people :P
00:32:07 <Taneb> hppavilion[1], you could get weird things like foot()*hour()*hertz() == 3600*foot()
00:32:57 <hppavilion[1]> though I suppose one could make a variable called mile that equals mile()
00:33:14 <Taneb> Yeah, none of these need to be functions
00:33:38 <Taneb> They don't need to be classes, either
00:33:44 <hppavilion[1]> mile() is pythonic syntax for "A new instance of the mile class"
00:34:05 <hppavilion[1]> But if we make them that, we can give them methods
00:34:25 <hppavilion[1]> And everything is nicer in the world of OCD programming if we do
00:34:57 <hppavilion[1]> I guess we could also just make a method called sleepfor()
00:35:17 <Taneb> I would have second, hour, etc be objects in the timeamount class or something
00:35:36 <boily> you should call that lib Feather.
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00:44:20 <hppavilion[1]> Should I just create a speed class with operator overloading?
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00:49:16 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll stick with modern equivalents of SI Units, instead of old units of meaurement that they used in the past. So that'll be a pain
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01:07:28 <hppavilion[1]> And the second is how big it is in relation to the previous
01:12:51 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, that sounds like what I'm remembering.
01:13:36 <tswett> hppavilion[1]: your material time idea reminds me of the idea of a programming language where variables can contain money.
01:13:54 <tswett> Of course, in such a language, you can't simply copy the value of one variable to another variable.
01:14:17 <tswett> If a function takes some money as an argument, you probably don't want to call it excessively many times.
01:15:03 <Jafet> That's an unusual usage for linear (or, since we're dealing with money, affine) types.
01:15:05 <tswett> If you have a closure that *returns* money, then you can only call the closure once, because calling it exhausts the money.
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01:17:03 <tswett> So, I feel like my operating system is uncontrollably hurtling towards version 0.1.
01:17:11 <tswett> Or maybe I should call it version 0.0.1, or 0.0.0.1, or ...
01:17:28 <Jafet> Assign it a version smaller than any positive real
01:17:43 <tswett> Yes, yes, version epsilon.
01:17:58 <tswett> Version x as x approaches 0 from the right.
01:18:08 <tswett> (Not to be confused with version the limit of x as x approaches 0 from the right.)
01:18:24 <hppavilion[1]> My system will assume that a year equals 365 days becuse I don't feel like figuring out how many months _really_ go into a year
01:19:11 <tswett> Or just version -1. That's smaller than any positive real.
01:20:49 <tswett> Let's see. Maybe version 0.1 should mean "kind of vaguely sort of usable". Then version 0.0.1 should mean "it does *something* significant", and version 0.0.0.1 should mean "it does something at all".
01:21:27 <tswett> So I've already achieved version 0.0.0.1.
01:23:22 <tswett> My goals for version 0.0.1 are dynamic memory allocation, cooperative thread switching, and handling of keyboard input.
01:36:12 * tswett returns to the keyboard.
01:36:25 <tswett> It's called Rivertooth. I'm writing it in Rust.
01:38:42 <tswett> I think I'll just use a best-fit memory allocation algorithm.
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01:49:34 <tswett> The hard part is choosing which type of search tree to use.
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01:54:16 <hppavilion[1]> tswett: Is it an actual OS or does it run under another OS?
01:54:32 <tswett> It's an actual OS. It runs right on bare metal.
01:54:42 <tswett> At least, it's supposed to. It runs successfully in an emulator.
01:54:51 <tswett> Also, I seem to be more or less drunk at the moment.
01:54:58 <tswett> I'd describe myself as... 70% drunk?
01:55:08 <tswett> Just, y'know, for what it's worth.
01:56:08 <hppavilion[1]> That's right in the correct zone, from what I'm told.
01:56:48 <tswett> So far, as you might be able to guess, it doesn't have dynamic memory allocation, thread switching, or support for keyboard input.
01:57:24 <hppavilion[1]> I guess I meant I assumed you weren't _planning_ on making it graphical
01:57:51 <tswett> I might at some point; I dunno.
01:57:57 <hppavilion[1]> I might as well learn rust now if you can make OSes in it :P
01:58:00 <tswett> I'm not really planning to ever support the mouse.
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02:02:12 <hppavilion[1]> Would there happen to be a convenient online tutorial I could view?
02:02:34 * hppavilion[1] prays to atheist god that tswett didn't learn about OS development from a University or something
02:02:57 <tswett> There aren't really any OS development tutorials. There are some sort of guide-like things to help you out.
02:03:06 <tswett> Also, wiki.osdev.org contains a lot of useful information.
02:03:58 <MDream> Well, there's sort of a tutorial now.
02:04:15 <MDream> I ought to read that more, but I'd like to actually make some user programs first.
02:04:49 <MDream> Also it will mostly be very silly things like operating systems made to work like adventure games.
02:05:04 <MDream> The operating systems I'd like to make, I mean.
02:05:59 <MDream> Basically, operating systems made to work like they were made in a science fiction movie.
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02:10:59 <oerjan> it's an MDream system! i know this!
02:19:08 <Sgeo_> http://ars.userfriendly.org/cartoons/?id=20010111
02:32:08 <tswett> Lessee. I think I'll say that each memory slab is simultaneously a node in a red–black tree and a node in a doubly linked list.
02:33:14 <tswett> But first I'll sleep for about eight hours.
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02:46:05 <zzo38> Do you like these kind of jokes? http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/Textbook_Humor#Computing Do you have some of these book, some of the links don't work, and do you have additional examples?
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02:48:00 <Sgeo_> http://ideone.com/WR1Awc a is used in two contexts where it takes on different types, this surprised me for some reason
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04:48:32 <izabera> i have a compiled binary from 1986
04:51:22 <izabera> that yields a surprisingly low amount or results
04:52:02 <izabera> objdump doesn't recognize the format, file says it's "compiled: WE32000 COFF object (demand paged)"
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04:54:01 <oerjan> are you sure it's not 86th of march 2006 hth
04:56:30 <oerjan> finally a haskell platform
04:59:05 <oerjan> oh hm that darn text bug means maybe i should wait a little more
05:01:06 <Sgeo_> Whee! I got a (very small) pull request merged into perl6 docs
05:02:38 * hppavilion[1] worships at the feet of Sgeo_, for he is truly a god
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05:22:13 <egrep> Yes! The plural of house is hice! :D
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06:30:43 <HackEgo> banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
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06:37:01 <zzo38> Well, I think the "wisdom" program is a shell script
06:37:55 <fungot> Walpurgisnacht: oh right. all of the files
06:38:03 <egrep> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src Huh.
06:42:13 <HackEgo> olist 995: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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07:44:02 <hppavilion1> Quite frankly, I am surprised TBFSes are yet to be banned from the wiki
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08:03:16 <Jafet> Some of them would probably be. For example, a variant where the instructions are replaced with names of retail aprodisiacs.
08:04:21 <Jafet> There has been a double standard with regards to hair salons, though.
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10:47:48 <Taneb> Once again I have hit the brick wall that I really do not know Java
10:48:35 <Jafet> Learn it! (Ram those bricks in your head.)
10:48:51 <boily> first step to learning java: install eclipse. the rest is automagic.
10:49:14 <Jafet> Automagic, the most deadly school of magic.
10:50:43 <Taneb> boily, unfortunately I am in the position where I need to be making the automagic
10:50:50 <Taneb> (I'm writing an Eclipse plugin)
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10:52:08 <boily> Jafellot. are you an automagick expert?
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10:59:20 <Jafet> Eclipse automagic sounds like a place where the sun doesn't shine.
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11:21:26 <mroman> Install eclipse, gg, surr at 20
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14:44:57 <int-e> meh there's ghc-7.10.2 now and I don't have time for dealing with lambdabot
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15:11:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jackass]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43675&oldid=43523 * JayCampbell * (-29) /* Interpreter */ link update to esoteric.ga
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18:21:42 <shachaf> oerjan: spot of the olist, governor?
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19:36:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43676&oldid=43590 * Rdebath * (-1) Sorted by codelength, cells used, instructions run and the code.
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19:50:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck constants]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43677&oldid=43676 * Rdebath * (-49379) Added all the best (I think) two-cell non-wrapping sequences, removed all sequences that aren't shorter 'cause they're boring. For every length+cells combination I selected the "best" (fewest steps) and discarded the others. Wrap, soft and non are inde...
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21:07:51 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom/It is now.
21:14:14 <HackEgo> water/Water is a squishy substance that creeps along the floor and can suddenly fall from the heavens.
21:14:33 <fizzie> I'm not at the Assembly this year. :/
21:14:44 <fizzie> For some reason they didn't move it from Helsinki to London when I moved.
21:14:54 <fizzie> (It's going on at the moment.)
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21:17:25 <MDude> Then I guess you'll have to be at the Higher Level or the Numerical Machine instead.
21:18:01 <MDude> Should I take cover?
21:19:08 <hppavilion[1]> A language centred around gluing greek/latin roots onto functions to change their effect
21:20:37 <hppavilion[1]> You don't glue them onto functions, you make functiosn out of them directly
21:21:24 <singingboyo> so... you're going to write an interpreter for latin?
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21:25:56 <hppavilion[1]> And it would just be functions based around a few greek and latin roots
21:32:19 <hppavilion[1]> I think I'll just go with the first one, where roots form function modifiers
21:37:49 <mauris> i like this idea, except wouldn't it be ambiguous?
21:38:00 <mauris> what if the user defines difoo
21:38:04 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
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21:40:43 <mauris> hppavilion[1]: -ify could be casts. like intify, charify
21:46:30 <hppavilion[1]> mauris: If the user defines difoo they get a syntax error for trying to define a rooted word
21:46:53 <hppavilion[1]> Either that or it calls the defined difoo due to pattern matching
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21:48:35 <hppavilion[1]> We're discussing an Esolang that uses greek/latin/etc roots to modify funtions!
21:48:58 <boily> (that was a declinated “!” hth)
21:50:03 <zzo38> When are they going to add all of the features of Tektronix 4014 (and maybe also 4016) into xterm? So far a few features are missing I think
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21:51:05 <boily> hezzo38. can I write a modern program that uses Tektronix specific features?
21:52:31 <zzo38> You probably can, although some of the features are not currently implemented in Xterm.
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21:53:10 <SopaXT> What about a FunctionFuck?
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21:54:01 <SopaXT> e.g DoStuff{+++++++++++++++++++++++++.[-].} =DoStuff
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22:30:31 * oerjan does a spot check for shachaf
22:31:02 <shachaf> oerjan: does that mean the vampire person saw the other person?
22:31:55 <oerjan> um i didn't actually read oots yet
22:32:29 <shachaf> then what are you doing logreading
22:34:16 <oerjan> well i was logreading, then i switched to another comic tab which i tend to open when logreading for stupid layout detection reasons
22:35:20 <oerjan> (it believes i am on mobile when using my usual zoom setting, which i coincidentally change for the logs. saves clicks.)
22:38:14 <shachaf> anyway i have no idea why you think that one person's last birthday is imminent
22:40:38 <oerjan> stupid unorganized oots archive
22:42:06 <shachaf> maybe you're looking for http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0329.html
22:43:36 <shachaf> or maybe http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html
22:46:03 <shachaf> ok, so i didn't remember the details
22:47:02 <oerjan> no idea when their year ends, anyway, but i think it would be a good time for a heroic sacrifice.
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22:52:46 <oerjan> oh wait it's winter solstice http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0987.html
22:52:55 <oerjan> yep pretty much the right time.
22:53:25 <shachaf> you pay more attention that i do tdh
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23:23:47 <zzo38> Do you know how to make the smallest Sixel representation of a picture? It may help to change the color in the middle of a strip and to allow pixels to overlap each other
23:34:50 <oerjan> <Jafet> Some of them would probably be. For example, a variant where the instructions are replaced with names of retail aprodisiacs. <-- are you entirely sure we don't have one already
23:36:30 <shachaf> I have a book that uses "positive" and "strictly positive" to mean ≥0 and >0 respectively.
23:36:44 <oerjan> hm no one's actually made the Casino Viagra language yet
23:36:48 <shachaf> I think this is probably a better convention, but using it is probably a bad idea.
23:37:08 <oerjan> strictly non-negative hth
23:37:37 <zzo38> I just use "nonnegative" and "positive". But for nonnegative integers they can just be called natural numbers.
23:38:39 <oerjan> that's like refusing to eat meat except for seal cubs
23:39:25 <boily> I think seal cubs are instructional aphrodisiacs.
23:39:42 <oerjan> i'm sure you could convince the chinese of it
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