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00:10:22 <Lyka> so, magic 8-ball program came out to 2131 commands.
00:11:23 <Lyka> each command being exactly 4 characters
00:12:05 <Lyka> and i don't understand a word of it
00:15:18 <Lyka> the three-command structure A1??C210M+00 is very common
00:15:43 <Lyka> the ?? being a byte in hex
00:16:05 <Lyka> knowing that, take a guess what it does...
00:16:37 <Lyka> i mean, what it is for
00:17:58 <Lyka> yeah, it has to do with memory.
00:19:22 <Lyka> store ?? in var 1, copy var 1 to t-memory location contained in var 0, increment var 0 by one
00:19:48 <Lyka> i used a shell script i made to generate most of this
00:21:34 <Lyka> at most 24 of the 2131 commands used involve things other than storing 8-ball answers to memory
00:22:45 <Lyka> 21*32*3 is the amount of pure "if command is run, copy something into memory"
00:24:29 <Lyka> it only uses 32 bytes of t-memory
00:25:06 <Lyka> (20 answers, one info screen, 16x2 lcd)
00:27:35 <Lyka> question: as i need an assignment, give me a complex program idea to make that can use only a 16x2 character-only lcd and 5 buttons that are multiplexed so that only one can be pressed at any time
00:28:42 <oerjan> that's not a very large screen
00:29:41 <Lyka> these are arduino unos with lcd keypad shields and with programs being run directly from sd
00:30:38 <Lyka> 4 bytes of command buffering in the programming language i designed to be interpreted
00:30:54 <Jafet> A side-scroller where you move in four directions and shoot a gun
00:31:45 <Lyka> side scroller with a 2-line-high display, no custom chars?
00:32:34 <Lyka> 32 1-byte vars/active function, 256-byte global array
00:32:36 <oerjan> dammit google why are you showing only the norwegian wikipedia result
00:34:33 <oerjan> i am wondering if that screen would be just large enough for backgammon
00:34:48 <Lyka> hmm...i can modify the interpreter to allow for a 3x1 grid as an alternate mode for each character point on the screen
00:35:26 <Lyka> if all points are in graphis mode
00:35:45 <Lyka> i've done thins like this before
00:37:20 <Lyka> 8 max custom chars on the device, but the interpeter i wrote doesn't yet have the commands to configure them
00:38:53 <Lyka> 20x14 graphics display and 12x8 text display side by side is the best i can do
00:40:37 <Lyka> 5x7 chars with a single pixel width between each pixel
00:42:16 <oerjan> (i mean backgammon with numbers showing field contents)
00:42:24 <Lyka> might actually be able to do a rogue-like game
00:43:44 <Lyka> the system can run up to five different games on a card (five buttons) so i will try for both backgammon and rogue-ike
00:43:47 <tswett> ais523: I bet the people in #esoteric would love BF Joust.
00:44:05 <ais523> tswett: I was hoping so, but they aren't interested in it today
00:44:08 <ais523> at least some of them aren't
00:44:27 <tswett> Sorta. I want to write a Haskell EDSL for creating BF Joust programs.
00:44:42 <ais523> I'm in a NetHack tournament right now
00:44:54 <ais523> but when I'm less busy I'll be happy to give anyone who cares strategy advice
01:00:40 <Lyka> there is going to be so little memory left for non-global variables on my arduino uno that i hope the new version of the interpreter will actually start
01:12:13 <tswett> So Norwegian has two written forms, aye? Bokmal and Nynorsk.
01:12:37 <tswett> Are they different orthographies, with different spelling and pronunciation rules?
01:13:29 <tswett> Presumably the syntax and vocabulary are pretty much identical. I think I saw on Wikipedia that there are a few suffixes where the Bokmal and Nynorsk equivalents look completely different.
01:14:02 <tswett> And those, I assume, would just be considered different spellings and pronunciations of the same affixes.
01:16:35 <tswett> If you're writing down actual speech, do you use the forms typical of the written form you're using, or the forms that the person actually said?
01:16:43 <oren> given the 'bok' meaning book, I assume it is similar to the way the KJV of the bible has thou and thee and didst etc.
01:18:11 <oren> except that people don't write new books in 16c english
01:18:35 <oren> but they could, if they wanted to
01:19:53 <oren> or are you saying that people also speak bokmål?
01:23:29 <oren> hmm... according to wikipedia, nynorsk is the minority lect
01:24:25 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_language_conflict
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01:45:28 <oerjan> tswett: no, it's not just orthography. and technically pronunciation is not defined by the standards.
01:45:32 <oren> Ooh! where=hvor why=hvorfor -> like shakespearian english 'wherefore'
01:46:34 <oerjan> there is plenty of vocabulary that would only be used in one of the forms, although some of it may gradually be becoming archaic.
01:48:06 <oerjan> <tswett> If you're writing down actual speech, do you use the forms typical of the written form you're using, or the forms that the person actually said? <-- usually but not always the former.
01:48:44 <oerjan> e.g. humor books might frequently try and write dialect.
01:49:36 <oren> 'try and write' is perfectly grammatical in english
01:49:53 <oerjan> <tswett> And those, I assume, would just be considered different spellings and pronunciations of the same affixes. <-- i doubt that, if they really look completely different rather than being obvious cognates
01:52:19 <oerjan> <oren> or are you saying that people also speak bokmål? <-- you could say some people are closer to it, like western parts of oslo and some other cities.
01:54:33 <oerjan> there are some differences in grammar, some differences in usage (e.g. -s possessive suffix is deprecated in nynorsk)
01:55:32 <oerjan> oren: to vs. and is a sore point in norwegian, because they are å vs. og, identically pronounced.
02:00:56 <tswett> Ooh, I just thought of an extremely small unit of money.
02:01:31 <tswett> Namely: the cost of an amount of computing power equal to that performed by one transistor in one clock cycle.
02:01:53 <oren> um. so the g is silent?
02:02:50 <oerjan> oren: yeah, final g often is.
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02:03:58 <oerjan> tswett: it's so small that it costs more than it to account for it...
02:05:00 <oerjan> sounds good. let's use it to break capitalism.
02:05:34 <tswett> Maybe this unit is about one zeptocent.
02:06:27 <oren> so it's essentially the cost of one nand operation from two bits to one
02:06:34 <tswett> When is the phrase "astronomically large" going to be replaced with "computer scientifically large"?
02:07:32 <oerjan> tswett: the latter sounds _very_ vague in comparison.
02:07:33 <oren> when we break down the earth to build a computer out of it
02:08:05 <oerjan> "astronomically large" has a much lower upper bound.
02:08:35 <oren> Although, I think a computer made mostly of iron like the earth would have to be a mechanical one
02:08:37 <tswett> In a certain way, a microsecond is "computer scientifically large".
02:09:08 <tswett> Are we going to keep the earth as one big ball or are we going to break it up into lots of tiny pieces?
02:09:17 <tswett> If we keep it as a ball, cooling could be a major problem.
02:09:41 <oren> Hmm maybe a large disc?
02:09:57 <oren> the ultimate hard disk
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02:12:10 <oerjan> hm engineering problem
02:13:01 <oerjan> probably want it distributed around the sun any way, to catch all the energy.
02:28:03 <Lyka> so, in order to make sure that the arduino sketch would run, i almost made the interpreter incompatible with one of my demo programs
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03:15:45 <zzo38> How to play poker with self-modifying rules?
04:00:19 <Lyka> re-added calling funtions from inside functions.
04:01:09 <Lyka> but, for stability's sake, you only have a depth of 3 (not inclding the main)
04:02:09 <Lyka> cause this arduino uno is dangerously low on ram
04:07:57 <Lyka> anyone want me to upload the Octopus 0005b language reference to my server?
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04:24:47 <zzo38> I want to see the instructions
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04:35:15 <zzo38> I added support for vector synthesis into AmigaMML (with two or four sounds, but only supports using an envelope; it doesn't support a joystick) but I do not have any instrument of vector synthesis do you have some?
04:48:44 <Lyka> i don't thin i do
04:50:35 <Lyka> zzo38: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/octopus%20language/octopus_0005b_lcd1602_keypad_sd%20commands.pdf
04:51:10 <Lyka> zzo38: it's on my dropbox instead of my server because it's gonna be obsolete by the afternoon
04:53:20 <zzo38> Do you have a .txt or only .pdf?
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04:55:42 <Lyka> text isn't formatted as well, but i'll get it in a second
04:56:48 <zzo38> I don't need it now since I already looked
04:57:00 <zzo38> But, later on when you post final documentation, maybe you should make .txt
04:57:19 <Lyka> this ain't anywhere close to final
04:58:12 <Lyka> i go ocd on both command listings and command fixings
04:59:42 <Lyka> does it look any good to you so far?
05:00:49 <Lyka> i have to put bitwise operations in
05:02:15 <Lyka> i'm working on graphics at the moment
05:02:56 <Lyka> i mean, the graphics capbility of a 16x2 "text-only" display
05:06:39 <Lyka> 8 custom characters gives me a little room to draw
05:09:57 <zzo38> How big are the tiles?
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05:10:37 <Lyka> tiles are seperated by a space 1 pixel wide
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05:15:28 <Lyka> i have to wake myself up enough to gt up and turn the light off
05:24:40 * Lyka coughs up all over the channel
05:25:09 <Lyka> 24 hour nasacort only lasts for 16
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07:08:28 <fungot> mroman_: the text color is ..well... touching. it has to do with the semantics i have now has an elisp module system really needs better documentation and probably an easier way to convert 2d objects into 3d objects.
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07:20:53 <Jafet> Good afternoon, fungot
07:20:54 <fungot> Jafet: although i've always used ghost for kicking my own fnord code golf. more formal. challenges organized, hidden input/ output
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07:28:02 <zzo38> I had idea to make up the "travel computer", with a monochrome display of 80x25 tiles, with 8x8 pixels per tile, and with simple tone generator, radio receiver, alarm, CF card, wired and wireless internet, infrared, and Forth. Smaller than a laptop computer, such as perhaps 8x11 inches when closed? I don't quite know, but I have some ideas
07:28:59 <zzo38> (The other program to built-in, other than Forth, is a VT100 terminal emulator, and perhaps network connection setup and a telnet and/or SSH client.)
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07:32:21 <zzo38> I thought of to have a character generator ROM with 127 tiles where 0-30 are VT100 character graphics, and that 31 and 32 are arrows. The character cell can have bit7 indicate reverse video and bit6-bit0 indicate which tile. Each row can also have perhaps 4-bits tell you the mode, such as double height, double width, underline/reverse/blink, pixels mode (therefore you can make 2x4 graphics per cell in that row)
07:32:35 <zzo38> What is your opinions/ideas too?
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11:35:10 <Jafet> Hmm, spectral is an inflection of two words
11:45:45 <lambdabot> *** "spectral" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
11:45:45 <lambdabot> adj 1: of or relating to a spectrum; "spectral colors";
11:45:45 <lambdabot> 2: resembling or characteristic of a phantom; "a ghostly face at
11:47:42 <Taneb> Spectrum and spectre?
11:50:21 <Jafet> I only realised the more common meaning afterward
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14:48:37 <tswett> http://www.furaffinity.net/view/5207303/ - well ain't this Finnish.
14:52:48 <tswett> Oh look, another one: http://hantwolf.deviantart.com/art/Lion-of-Finland-272341242
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15:15:02 <tswett> Hey, it's totally SFW.
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16:29:50 <lambdabot> Local time for oren is Mon Jun 1 12:31:13 2015
16:29:58 <Taneb> I do not think it is morning for you
16:30:04 <Taneb> It is certainly not morning for me
16:31:38 <Jafet> Given that there could be up to ~20 humans in here, there is a fair chance that it is morning for somebody
16:32:00 <oren> tswett: http://media.indiedb.com/cache/images/groups/1/1/84/thumb_620x2000/1187025029_Suffer_Not_the_Furry_to_Live_Desu.jpg
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16:49:21 <Lyka> so, um...how much can you do with a 20x16 pixel grid again?
16:51:54 <Lyka> plus a 12x2 char grid next to it
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17:17:06 <zzo38> What character are builtin?
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17:57:57 <Taneb> Help I have written the line of code "hundred = (\f -> f . f . f . f) . (\f -> f . f . f . f . f) . (\f -> f . f . f . f . f)"
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17:59:57 <shachaf> Taneb: hundred = (\f -> f . f) . (\f -> f . f) . (\f -> f . f . f . f . f) . (\f -> f . f . f . f . f) hth
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18:01:48 <olsner> Taneb: (\f g -> f . f . g . g) (\f -> f . f) (\f -> f . f . f . f . f)
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18:14:06 <oren> Taneb: I recommend a loop instead
18:15:07 <shachaf> hundred f z = iterate f z !! 100
18:19:05 <Taneb> Eh, that sounds lame
18:19:26 <oren> or construct a lambda containing a loop
18:19:30 <olsner> yes, that's definitely lame
18:38:35 <oren> shachaf: is that really a loop?
18:39:35 <Elronnd|deminewt> shachaf: Repeat a series of steps until a bound has been reached
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18:48:49 <oren> hundred = (\f -> (let q = (\x f n -> if n == 0 then x else (q (f x
18:49:13 <oren> hundred = (\f -> (let q = (\x f n -> if n == 0 then x else (q (f x) (n - 1))))
18:49:42 <oren> I have no idea whether you can do anythign similar to the above
18:50:07 <oren> hundred = (\f x -> (let q = (\x f n -> if n == 0 then x else (q (f x) (n - 1))) x f 100)
18:52:33 <oren> hundred = (\f x -> (let q = (\x f n -> if n == 0 then x else (q (f x) (n - 1)))) x f 100)
18:56:24 <oren> does anyone understand my haskell-racket pidgin thingy or should I figure out how to do this correctly
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19:04:50 <oren> ghci is such a scow, why is its syntax different from a .has file
19:07:29 <oren> hundred :: (Int -> Int) -> (Int -> Int) --works fine in a file, not on the prompt.
19:07:52 <shachaf> let hundred :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; hundred = ...
19:08:37 <shachaf> ghci's syntax is somewhat similar to a do block
19:17:33 <oren> hey, that wasn't too difficult!
19:17:37 <oren> let hundred :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; hundred f = (\x -> (let q = (\f x n -> if n == 0 then x else (q f (f x) (n - 1))) in q f x 100) )
19:18:27 <oren> yay for learning programming languages sort of by osmosis!
19:19:22 <oren> > let hundred :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; hundred f = (\x -> (let q = (\f x n -> if n == 0 then x else (q f (f x) (n - 1))) in q f x 100) ); hundred (\x -> x + 1) 6
19:19:25 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
19:19:45 <oren> > let hundred :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; hundred f = (\x -> (let q = (\f x n -> if n == 0 then x else (q f (f x) (n - 1))) in q f x 100) )
19:19:47 <lambdabot> not an expression: ‘let hundred :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; hundred f = (\x -...
19:20:20 <oren> It's a loop with tail recursion
19:20:21 <shachaf> you're using general recursion and you're not reusing library functions and it's longer
19:20:53 <shachaf> and tail recursion is scow anyway
19:22:17 <oren> > let hundred :: (a -> a) -> a -> a; hundred f = (\x -> (let q = (\f x n -> if n == 0 then x else (q f (f x) (n - 1))) in q f x 100) ) in hundred (\x -> x + 1) 6
19:22:41 <J_Arcane> heh. evereyone's probably seem this already, but monads in Factor: http://gitweb.factorcode.org/gitweb.cgi?p=factor;a=blob;f=extra/monads/monads.factor;hb=HEAD
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19:32:50 <J_Arcane> It looks like someone sat down and said "Well, Forth is nice, but what if we grafted some Lisp in there too."
19:34:41 <zzo38> The way of explain use of monad is like with list comprehension. Lists you can easily explain fmap/return/join, and then you can see also bind is working, and then how it is working IO monads too. For example in Python you can have [(x, y) for x in [1,2,3] for y in [3,1,4] if x != y] and in Haskell do-notation you can write (do { x <- [1,2,3]; y <- [3,1,4]; guard (x /= y); return (x, y); }) and you come up the same answer. That is how you should exp
19:39:54 <J_Arcane> zzo38: This is similar to one of my few light-bulb moments in monads so far: I write a pure-functional for-loop in Lisp, the end result of which is at least similar.
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19:41:33 <b_jonas> > do { x <- [1,2,3]; y <- [3,1,4]; guard (x /= y); return (x, y); }
19:41:35 <lambdabot> [(1,3),(1,4),(2,3),(2,1),(2,4),(3,1),(3,4)]
19:44:33 <oren> To help properly track optimized code without the output disabling the optimization: int traceprint(struct {char s[20]} X) __attribute__ ((const)) {puts(X.s);}
19:45:18 <oren> Basically it's a print function that pretends it's pure
19:45:59 <oren> To help properly track optimized code without the output disabling the optimization: int traceprint(struct {char s[20]} X) __attribute__ ((const)) {puts(X.s); return 0;}
19:48:23 <oren> This helps when optimized code assumes that it can call a function less times than as written, but you're still trying to trace a bug. Adding a puts("crap"); would cause GCC to disable the optimization because now the number of times the function is called matters.
19:49:33 <lambdabot> *** "debugger" wn "WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006)"
19:49:33 <lambdabot> n 1: a program that helps in locating and correcting programming
19:50:49 <J_Arcane> oren: That sort of thing seems to be a semi-common idiom in Clojure when dealing with certain things like database inserts.
19:51:38 <J_Arcane> Create a local value, insert it in the db, then return the same, and then you can even thus use it in place somewhere else where you'd otherwise just use the value.
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22:15:11 <tswett> Have I ever mentioned my "JIT operating system" idea?
22:15:29 <tswett> I feel like it could potentially be a really good idea, so I don't know why it hasn't been tried yet.
22:15:58 <tswett> It's an operating system where all executable code, with some exceptions, is stored in the form of some intermediate bytecode instead of machine code.
22:16:57 <tswett> Whenever you run a program, the OS runs the bytecode using JIT compilation.
22:18:23 <tswett> The benefit I see is that CPU-based security and separation measures are no longer necessary.
22:18:48 <fizzie> Sounds like the way Android was, before the latest runtime.
22:18:51 <olsner> pretty sure that's been done, at least in almost the same way
22:19:05 <tswett> Programs can all run in the same address space, because the bytecode makes it impossible for one program to try to access another program's data.
22:19:15 <fizzie> elliott has also described that.
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22:20:28 <oerjan> pretty sure i thought of almost that back in the early '90s hth
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22:20:59 <nys> isn't that what inferno is?
22:21:11 <fizzie> (Although in Android's case that's not really the security model, and there's quite a lot of native code around, and anyway the current runtime is ahead-of-time compilation.)
22:21:20 <olsner> even if all userspace code is run in a VM, you may want to isolate your VM instances because you will put bugs in it
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22:23:07 <olsner> oh, and iSeries (AS/400) does something like that since the 80s
22:23:10 -!- G33kDude has changed nick to GeekDude.
22:23:14 <tswett> I've read about Inferno before.
22:23:15 <fizzie> Also I think elliott's design also had no distinction between "user mode" and "kernel mode", because it's also equally useless, if you assume no bugs.
22:25:01 <oerjan> <Tefaj> Spectral chicken <-- UNITARY CHICKEN
22:25:30 <tswett> Oh sweet, a training round happened.
22:25:53 <fizzie> The way linear algebrists keep talking about spectral things always confuses me.
22:26:13 <oerjan> the problem with all this is that doing it properly really requires proof verification all the way down to circuit level
22:26:13 <tswett> At this rate, I should have a neural net in 300,000 seconds.
22:26:45 <olsner> that's less than 100 hours!
22:26:52 <oerjan> if you want the OS to be safe even with drivers, you need specifications of physical devices
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22:27:16 <oerjan> (at least that's part of what i thought, back in the '90s)
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22:27:21 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, that's something I don't want to attempt.
22:27:27 <shachaf> fizzie: What sort of spectral things?
22:28:12 <fizzie> shachaf: The spectral theorem, mainly.
22:28:24 <Jafet> Actually gate level verification is more mature than software, if anything
22:28:47 <fizzie> (I'm conditioned to think of, like, frequencies, man, when someone mentions a spectrum.)
22:29:01 <Jafet> (probably because Intel knows, from experience, that it's very expensive to hotfix gates.)
22:29:03 <fizzie> (And not about eigenvalues.)
22:29:59 <fizzie> Also: spectral clustering.
22:30:19 <oerjan> <tswett> At this rate, I should have a neural net in 300,000 seconds. <-- i sense determination here
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22:31:35 <fizzie> Sometimes there's an audio-related paper that also involves spectral clustering (because it's used in image processing, and there is nothing they can possess which speech people cannot take away, to quote that movie).
22:31:52 <shachaf> fizzie: you could have invented spectral sequences hth
22:32:30 <fizzie> And then it's like "wait, is that just garden variety clustering with spectral features or spectral clustering of something else".
22:33:54 <fizzie> http://www.jmlr.org/papers/volume7/bach06b/bach06b.pdf <- that seems to be segmenting a spectro[1]gram with spectral[2] clustering.
22:34:09 <fizzie> (Disclaimer: I couldn't bother to actually read it.)
22:37:38 <shachaf> going by the contents of http://www.ams.org/notices/200601/fea-chow.pdf i probably couldn't have invented spectral sequences
22:38:33 * oerjan cannot quite remember whether he ever understood what spectral sequences are.
22:38:41 <fizzie> Maybe it's like the "only you can prevent forest fires", which most people also cannot do.
22:38:46 <oerjan> but i'm pretty sure i couldn't have invented them.
22:39:22 <oerjan> fizzie: i'm pretty sure shachaf is alluding to the "you could have invented monads" blog post
22:39:36 <oerjan> (which is rather more reasonable.)
22:40:04 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm alluding to http://www.ams.org/notices/200601/fea-chow.pdf hth
22:40:05 <fizzie> oerjan: The title of the thing he linked is "You Could Have Invented Spectral Sequences", though.
22:40:09 <shachaf> well, maybe it's not alluding
22:40:32 <fizzie> If it's printed in an AMS journal, it must be true.
22:40:38 <oerjan> ok maybe they are alluding, then.
22:40:55 <shachaf> no, dan piponi was alluding to the article i linked
22:41:22 <fizzie> Not related, but something that got a chuckle out of me: tdwtf's "Error'd" had this: [[ For those accounts with no security question, one has automatically been assigned. If prompted, the security question is: "What was the color of your first car?" The answer is: car. ]]
22:41:26 <fizzie> It's nice because it's arguably kind of a tautology: all cars are car-coloured.
22:41:41 <shachaf> http://blog.ezyang.com/2012/02/anatomy-of-you-could-have-invented/#comment-3465
22:42:36 <shachaf> ok maybe i missed something
22:46:25 <shachaf> you could have invented spectral hugs
22:47:12 <nys> you could have invented profunctors
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22:57:41 <oerjan> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
22:58:44 * boily used the trusty table on wikipédia.
22:58:45 <oerjan> boily: i wasn't using xsampa hth
22:58:58 <boily> oh. what was it then twh?
23:01:11 * oerjan suggests turning your monitor upside down hth hth
23:02:47 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
23:03:16 <boily> that is one impressive helloily.
23:03:40 <zzo38> I look at this http://blog.ezyang.com/2014/07/type-classes-confluence-coherence-global-uniqueness/ it is similar to thing I have complained about too. My opinion is that the definition of test in D.hs should be a type mismatch error. This would require changing the definition of Set though, as well as fixing Haskell to allow the new definition to work properly.
23:04:09 <boily> hungy. time to hunt for poutine.
23:04:13 -!- boily has quit (Quit: HADOPELAGIC CHICKEN).
23:04:42 <shachaf> @ask boily what do you think of smoke's poutinerie twh
23:05:02 <zzo38> The definition need to indicate that the type (Set x) depends on (Ord x) therefore it work.
23:05:39 <zzo38> And you should be able to specify which instances you would want to import too.
23:05:58 <shachaf> oerjan: you should turn the script off. hope that helps.
23:07:15 <zzo38> Therefore, in such example as given then specifying the type (Set U) in D.hs at all should be error because it is ambiguous which type you mean.
23:07:50 <Phantom_Hoover> To define the n-sphere in hott you have to define all of its higher homotopies, right?
23:08:14 <Phantom_Hoover> But higher homotopy of the n-sphere is a notoriously hard open problem, so how the hell could you even do that?
23:09:31 <zzo38> Another problem is that some packages define instances which are wrong and then you cannot define the correct one!
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23:11:24 <oerjan> @tell boily NOOO don't leave i cannot interpret your xsampa even with wikipedia :(
23:15:12 <oerjan> that 0~ just doesn't fit any of the tables
23:17:52 <oerjan> @tell boily My two theories are: (1) you're trying to write bonsoerjan but have no idea what the phonetic symbols mean (2) you're actually using some african click language with a slight misprint on the 0
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23:29:10 <Taneb> It is EXCESSIVELY rainy here
23:30:14 <lambdabot> ENVA 012250Z 25008KT 9999 FEW040 BKN060 08/03 Q1000 RMK WIND 670FT 25010KT
23:30:27 <oerjan> now if i knew which part was rain
23:30:32 <tswett> So the first training batch took 300 seconds, but the next one took 855, and the next one 1196, and the next one 1405.
23:30:53 <lambdabot> CYYZ 012300Z 14007KT 15SM SCT055 BKN065 OVC220 13/08 A3020 RMK SC3SC4CI1 SLP229
23:31:13 <oerjan> > zipWith(-)`ap`tail$[300,855,1196,1405]
23:31:20 <oren> I only see the OVC220 \
23:31:43 <oerjan> > zipWith(-)`ap`tail$zipWith(-)`ap`tail$[300,855,1196,1405]
23:31:44 <lambdabot> ESSB 012320Z AUTO 22005KT 9999 NCD 07/03 Q1012
23:32:14 <lambdabot> quicksilver says: zip`ap`tail - the Aztec god of consecutive numbers
23:33:54 <tswett> oerjan: wait, do you have a script that randomly appends " hth" to your messages?
23:34:01 <oren> I made a version of unrnfc that only reads the file through once
23:34:13 <oerjan> tswett: no it removes it hth
23:34:16 <lambdabot> (\ f -> (\ a -> a) f f) (\ h -> (\ b -> b) h h)
23:34:59 <oerjan> i guess they fixed that bug
23:36:08 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: defining the n-sphere in HoTT is quite easy.
23:36:41 <Phantom_Hoover> so is it just hard to calculate what \Omega_n actually is?
23:36:52 <tswett> I don't remember what \Omega is.
23:37:02 <tswett> Like, what a capital omega represents.
23:37:22 <tswett> I think this is a big sphere (written like Haskell):
23:37:22 <constant> tswett: in what? algo anylyss or something else?
23:37:27 <oerjan> tswett: @pl join id (join id) used to loop
23:38:00 <tswett> data BigSphere where Base :: BigSphere; Surf :: Refl (Refl (Refl (Refl Base))) = Refl (Refl (Refl (Refl Base)))
23:38:03 <shachaf> oerjan *is* a script that randomly appends " hth" to his messages
23:38:11 <oerjan> @pl ap id id (ap id id)
23:38:15 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:38:30 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:38:32 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, capital omega is the group of loops with a given basepoint
23:38:37 <oren> http://hastebin.com/zoyejekeyu.cpp
23:38:52 <tswett> Yeah, I think it is just hard to calculate what that is.
23:39:11 <shachaf> oerjan: maybe if you resume it one more time you'll get something
23:39:33 <lambdabot> optimization suspended, use @pl-resume to continue.
23:41:07 <oren> it implements http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byte_pair_encoding
23:48:27 <HackEgo> category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it.
23:48:53 <shachaf> `` N=$(find wisdom -type f | wc -l); F="$(find wisdom -type f | head -n $((RANDOM % N)) | tail -n1)"; E="${F#wisdom/}"; echo "$E"; \? "$E"
23:48:54 <HackEgo> right \ Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
23:49:01 <oerjan> i dunno, ask in the category helpdesk
23:49:15 <shachaf> `` N=$(find wisdom -type f | wc -l); F="$(find wisdom -type f | head -n $((RANDOM % N)) | tail -n1)"; E="${F#wisdom/}"; echo "$E"; \? "$E"
23:49:16 <HackEgo> burlesque \ Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
23:52:23 <shachaf> `` N=$(find wisdom -type f | wc -l); F="$(find wisdom -type f | head -n $((RANDOM % N)) | tail -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"
23:52:24 <HackEgo> olsner/olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
23:52:43 <shachaf> `` echo 'N=$(find wisdom -type f | wc -l); F="$(find wisdom -type f | head -n $((RANDOM % N)) | tail -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"' > bin/wisdom; chmod +x bin/wisdom
23:53:27 <HackEgo> copumpkin/copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
23:53:28 <HackEgo> itidus20/itidus20's entry has been censored.
23:53:28 <HackEgo> cat/Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
23:53:28 <HackEgo> Ø/Ø escaped due to a sensitive case bug
23:53:28 <HackEgo> résumé/résumé is a French summary. Not a curriculum vitæ.
23:53:43 <shachaf> copumpkin: sorry about that hth
23:56:22 <shachaf> by the way, slashlearn isn't compatible with entries that are in subdirectories
23:56:26 <HackEgo> wisdom/itidus19 \ wisdom/itidus20 \ wisdom/itidus21
23:56:35 <HackEgo> itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly
23:56:40 <HackEgo> itidus21 just made some instant coffee.
23:56:43 <shachaf> so this will generate invalid output for them
23:57:15 <HackEgo> Phantom Michael Hoover is a true Scotsman, hatheist, and completely out of the loop.
23:57:34 <shachaf> oh, that's why you were asking about homotopies
23:59:17 <HackEgo> thyme/Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
00:00:17 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/thyme:Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
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00:03:46 <oerjan> <oren> ghci is such a scow, why is its syntax different from a .has file <-- imo, because you cannot unambiguously parse a line that might be either an expression or the start of a definition.
00:04:28 <shachaf> oerjan: "x = 5" is unambiguous
00:04:49 <oerjan> shachaf: yes, but that's not the only legal form of first line of a definition
00:05:00 <shachaf> well, if you required all of them to be on one line
00:05:05 <shachaf> multiline definitions are a different issue
00:05:20 <shachaf> but now that "data T ..." is legal, i don't see why "x = 5" shouldn't be
00:05:24 <oerjan> shachaf: but then you'd still have people complaining that they couldn't paste .hs files directly into ghci
00:05:39 <shachaf> which already exists for multiline definitions
00:05:57 <shachaf> ok, you probably still couldn't because .hs files can be out of order and that's asking a bit much
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00:06:07 <oerjan> shachaf: i mean "newbies", aka the people you're trying to avoid having to explain this to - replacing it with having to explain :{ instead is useless.
00:06:20 <shachaf> but :{ is a p. good smiley face
00:06:22 <oren> shachaf: what's that, the mustachioed guy operator?
00:06:27 <shachaf> is that a big moustache or what?
00:06:33 <oerjan> oh i didn't even think of the out of order thig.
00:06:40 <shachaf> oerjan: anyway it's not about explaining things, it's about using it myself hth
00:07:17 <oerjan> oren: anyway, they could probably fix it so some more cases worked out of the box, but having "typing the contents of a .hs file into ghci always works" work is hopeless.
00:07:54 <shachaf> :{ \ x :: Int \ print 1 \ x = 2 \ :}
00:08:08 <oerjan> given the recent reddit discussion i saw, it's somewhat likely that they'll try to improve it soon
00:08:33 <shachaf> should i try keeping up with reddit.com/r/haskell
00:08:44 <shachaf> i stopped after a long streak of scow
00:08:58 <oerjan> you don't have to read _every_ post
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00:11:50 <oerjan> although no one in the reddit discussion pointed out the obvious ambiguities, if i hadn't been several days late to read it i might have
00:11:57 <shachaf> i filed a bunch of filler ghci bugs a while ago but i forgot i was going to mention that one
00:12:10 <oerjan> (which means it's only obvious to me, i guess)
00:12:21 <shachaf> maybe it's so obvious that no one else found it necessary to mention hth
00:12:40 <shachaf> a "filler" bug is one whose bug number is slightly below #10000
00:13:11 <oerjan> wait, does that mean i should look at #9999 and down to see your work
00:13:16 <shachaf> by the way it's a shame bug #10000 was a duplicate
00:13:29 <shachaf> i think it deserved all the discussion from #9858
00:13:32 <oerjan> indeed, otoh it brought so much back into life
00:13:49 <oerjan> did you notice they didn't manage to fix it completely in 7.10.1
00:14:33 <shachaf> i stopped paying attention sometime after i became famous hth
00:15:05 <oerjan> shachaf: the (,) constraint vs. * ambiguity, mainly
00:15:20 <oerjan> well, () and => vs. -> was the exploit
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00:15:53 <shachaf> well i'll just rely on SafeHaskell from now on to prevent people from deleting my files
00:17:16 <shachaf> oh the tuple constraints thing was changed after 7.10 was released
00:19:34 <shachaf> i remembered that it happened, just not the timeline
00:19:49 <oerjan> also after that they've changed it into an actual class
00:21:56 <oerjan> https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/9995 i'm with #2
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00:29:25 <oerjan> <oren> It's a loop with tail recursion <-- what shachaf is trying to imply is that haskell's laziness means tail recursion is often not an improvement, and this is one of those cases.
00:29:42 <shachaf> i wasn't trying to imply that but i did think it
00:30:25 <oerjan> also, when tail recursion _is_ an improvement, you often need explicit strictness annotation to make it so.
00:30:43 <shachaf> sometimes you can use implicit strictness annotation hth
00:33:06 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
00:33:47 * oerjan tries to swat mockingbird but misses -----###
00:34:02 <shachaf> maybe `? should give a random wisdom when run with no arguments
00:34:40 <HackEgo> fentimans/fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
00:35:00 <HackEgo> certainty/We don't know what certainty is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
00:38:02 <HackEgo> forty means "in a fort-like manner"
00:38:06 <shachaf> `? people who taneb is not
00:38:07 <HackEgo> elliott, a rabbi, Mark Zuckerberg, James Bond
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00:38:23 <shachaf> Taneb: Is that a complete list?
00:38:30 <oerjan> shachaf: but of course
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00:40:54 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
00:40:57 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
00:41:05 <HackEgo> nooooodl is the correct spelling
00:41:33 <HackEgo> Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
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01:26:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenir: not found
01:26:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenida: not found
01:27:00 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en irc.dal.net.)
01:27:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bienvenu: not found
01:28:46 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:29:06 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/en .*/en EFnet o DALnet.)/' wisdom/bienvenido
01:29:06 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/bienvenido: No such file or directory
01:29:14 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/en .*/en EFnet o DALnet.)/' wisdom/`welcome.es
01:29:15 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
01:29:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/en .*/en EFnet o DALnet.)/' wisdom/welcome.es
01:29:30 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
01:30:10 <HackEgo> wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork \ wisdom/welcome.es \ wisdom/welcome.fi
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01:43:27 <Nihilumbra> The morris worm from 1987 or 88 what was it
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01:44:43 <oerjan> not to be confused with the morris dance
01:46:53 <oerjan> it's good at replicating itself hth
01:58:59 <Nihilumbra> Give me an alternitave language that can make a site fully functionable without the usage of javascript but can make the same style and quality of a java run site
02:03:10 <oerjan> are you confusing java and javascript, they are completely different.
02:04:26 <Nihilumbra> I know they are different I just can't word atm
02:04:54 <oerjan> a lot of languages could work in principle but they have the problem that _your site_ doesn't get to decide what user's _browsers_ support, and javascript is the only thing that works widely without users installing anything extra these days.
02:05:49 <oerjan> however, there are quite a lot of languages that can be _compiled_ to javascript.
02:06:03 <Nihilumbra> Why is everything with javascript, I want more versitile sites
02:07:09 <oerjan> because javascript was what got improved upon to fix the even more horrible mess that existed before.
02:08:01 <oerjan> java btw tried to be it, but failed.
02:08:36 * oerjan should note that he isn't a web developer so may be missing something.
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02:10:39 <Nihilumbra> Ah, I forgot Oerjan is in his 40's he was in the nightmare of the early internet
02:11:33 <oerjan> it wasn't much of a nightmare for me, but then i didn't have to program it.
02:12:55 <oerjan> i didn't have to try to make fancy websites
02:13:34 <oerjan> my own website (hideously out-of-date, i seem to just drop in new files and link them from the wiki these days) doesn't even have CSS.
02:14:28 <Nihilumbra> Why do I get strong nostalgia when I think of the 1950's-1990's even though I'm a young
02:15:02 <Nihilumbra> Maybe its because of all the history I learn on a day to day basis
02:15:04 <oerjan> clearly reincarnation hth
02:35:51 <shachaf> oerjan: i assume that nvg.org is Taneb's domain
02:36:55 <shachaf> so is it elliott's, a rabbi's, Mark Zuckerberg's, or James Bond's?
02:37:04 <oren> Maybe I should get a personal site, everyone seems to have one
02:37:15 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: oerjan.nvg.org
02:37:59 <shachaf> i have a fairly impersonal site
02:43:01 <zzo38> You can make webpages and stuff even just with HTML you don't need JavaScripts. If you use server codes then you can use whatever programming language you want, Javascript if you like it, or C, or PHP, or whatever else
02:43:46 <zzo38> If you want interactive with server codes you can also make telnet protocol or SSH protocol
02:44:16 <oren> lol telnet that sounds cool.
02:45:12 <zzo38> Interactive internet protocol. Whatever it receive it will do by the terminal emulator (usually VT100 or related), and when you push key it send.
02:45:13 <oren> telnet is pretty much just a two-way tcp connection to whatever program is on the other end
02:46:17 <oren> It is unencrypted, so it can easily be spoofed, spied on etc. which is why people nowadays generally use ssh
02:47:04 <oren> E.g. when you send a password to login over a telnet connection, the password is sent as plain text
02:47:32 <oren> so if someone is capturing your packets, now they know your password
02:47:37 <zzo38> SSH is more secure; it support not only login by password but also you can do authentication by keys too, and some other security features
02:48:46 <zzo38> Another thing of SSH is you can do X forwarding which allow to make GUI, but then you need X if you want to be able to access the GUI. I do not recommend that if a services is made on internet you use SSH, that you require X so you should provide text/command-line mode too whether or not the GUI is provided.
02:49:48 <zzo38> You should use limited codes compatible with VT100/ANSI/xterm if possible since subset of those are the most portable terminal codes.
02:50:46 <zzo38> (Although, some servers also provide option for different terminal types, or you can check the client's terminal type string to see what it identifies itself as, or do both)
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02:55:58 <pikhq> Telnet *over SSL* is reasonably secure though.
02:56:23 <pikhq> And (though I don't know if anyone does this) you could even use client certs instead of passwords with it.
02:56:44 <pikhq> (but yes, SSH is much more convenient for this. Because seriously, who does Telnet over SSL other than IBM?)
03:08:29 <zzo38> Telnet is also a simpler protocol. But, if you want security then use SSH
03:10:59 <oren> I just reaalized, that instead of running dwarf fortress over X tunneling, I can set it to text display!
03:12:45 <Jafet> What a strange concept
03:13:03 <Jafet> (Does it have a text display? Do you have a cp437 terminal?)
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04:09:48 <Lyka> gonna fork the 4FK-Based Interpreted Language for the Arduino called Octopus into both Squid and Cuttlefish over the course of a few days
04:10:30 <Lyka> Development on Octopus will continue as long as 4FK is being developed by me
04:17:31 <oren> Yeah I have a cp437 compatible font (Liberation Mono)
04:24:39 <oren> Hmm, but tis font sucks. getting a better one
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04:27:16 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/backup/pc_character_set.chr
04:27:21 <zzo38> That is a better font
04:31:02 <Nihilumbra> If you can't see your internet you don't have internet
04:31:49 <Nihilumbra> Does one pronounce router as rooter or r- OW- ter
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04:34:46 <Lyka|Phone> anyone wanna see the current command list for 4FK Octopus?
04:36:01 <Nihilumbra> @bf ++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++>++++++++>+++++++++>++++++++++<<<<<<<<<-]++++++++++++>>>>>>----.>>>---.--.<----.<<<<<<----.>>>>>>>+++++.<<<<<-.<<.>>>>>>>+.<<<<<<<.>>++..<<.>+.
04:37:36 <password2> sounds lik bf with only 4 commands?
04:38:08 <Lyka|Phone> actually, bf with four-letter commands
04:39:13 <Nihilumbra> Have you unplugged it and plugged it back in
04:40:29 <Nihilumbra> Determining where to put certain strings at random intervels into a stack is very weird
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04:42:46 <Lyka|Phone> let me ssh into my web server, where I was in the process of copying the files there
04:43:36 <Lyka> Octopus (4FK+LCD1602
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04:47:43 <oren> Apparently someone converted all the DF tilesets to ttf fonts. http://dffd.bay12games.com/file.php?id=1922
04:50:59 <Nihilumbra> That's a nice set of brainfuck four king
04:51:23 <oren> The connection was refused
04:51:24 <zzo38> Let me to see the .txt file when you are completely finish with it; right now I am not interest to loo at right now
04:54:14 <zzo38> Telnet does not have security.
04:54:30 <zzo38> It doesn't mean telnet is unsafe
04:55:13 <Nihilumbra> So telnet is crap security wise but ssh helps
04:55:30 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/6apsrm5ej/ <-- playing DF over ssh & GNU screen!
04:56:07 <oren> the coonection was refused when trying to go to sif.lesidhetree.com
04:56:37 <zzo38> Yes. Telnet, like HTTP and Gopher and SMTP and IRC and so on, is not a secure protocol; this means that data is not encrypted. SSH encrypts the data and has other security features, in order to improve the security.
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04:57:40 <oren> oh, I mispelled it that's why
04:57:46 <Nihilumbra> Oren, its because of those amazing unheard if dog breeds
05:00:18 <Nihilumbra> Then what are you doing here?! Go complete it
05:00:30 <Lyka|Phone> major changes may have to happen for it to work with cuttlefish
05:01:11 <Nihilumbra> Tell me about cuttle and shell fish later
05:08:46 <Lyka|Phone> okay, 4FK now has nothing in common with bf
05:10:45 <Lyka|Phone> cause it's less esolang and more machine code
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05:18:11 <zzo38> Why does it say "error: 'Sample' has no member named 'data'" even though it does have that member? (I get the same error for all of the other members)
05:18:58 <zzo38> O, I figured out now
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08:28:54 <Sgeo> http://i.imgur.com/akjGQLo.png
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08:32:35 <Sgeo_> Different one I gave compat mode, and it bluescreened me
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08:57:03 <mroman_> I need his opinion on the implication of lisp-like languages in the modern world on frequency of parentheses in text messages on social networks from people that are married to computer linguists.
09:01:00 <oren> Man, Dwarf fortress fonts make text very compact on screen
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09:06:22 <mroman_> fungot: What's your opinion on the implication of lisp-like languages in the modern world on frequency of parentheses in text messages on social networks from people that are married to computer linguists.
09:06:22 <fungot> mroman_: neilv what portion of the package that the macro then
09:11:35 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
09:11:57 <fungot> Selected style: enron (subset of the Enron email dataset)
09:12:09 <int-e> fungot: did you or didn't you?
09:12:09 <fungot> int-e: attached you will find that the same i/ ii kay as mentioned on a voicemail i left you on thursday on the robert trent, f) class 2002-04 meeting times: how democrats love the new source review which requires the use of the commission
09:17:03 <mroman_> fungot: What's your favorite Burlesque program?
09:17:03 <fungot> mroman_: it is the only two, we are to stress on the household and the next few years.??)
09:17:09 <mroman_> Mine is ln)XXtp)><)F:)<]u[/v\[
09:21:16 <mroman_> it however only really works if and only if one and exactly one permutation is missing
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11:08:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43129&oldid=42826 * Esowiki201529A * (+31) /* base 7 system */ new section
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14:07:04 <mroman_> fungot: Don't you hate people that don't use -Wall -Werror --std=c89 -pedantic?
14:07:04 <fungot> mroman_: public opinion of the in air of discontent is reflecting on a couple of years." bc: sheila a knudsen in ena had is whether it will/ hou/ ect on 10/ 10.
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14:10:37 <fizzie> Warns for every occurrence of the xor operator.
14:11:20 <Deewiant> Warns for every occurrence of chickens.
14:14:04 <b_jonas> mroman_: no. But I hate the people that try to claim that by using a couple of compiler switches like that they have magically proved that their program is standards compliant.
14:14:39 <mroman_> well, that would depend on how good the compiler is at rejecting non standard compliant programs
14:15:00 <b_jonas> mroman_: and solving the halting problem
14:15:18 <b_jonas> and some other impossible things
14:16:34 <mroman_> because of runtime overflows?
14:16:55 <mroman_> a compiler could just assume that every addition overflows :)
14:17:14 <mroman_> and require you to do bounds checking before every one of them.
14:17:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: more for using dangling pointers
14:17:36 <b_jonas> but sure, overflows too if you wish
14:18:24 <mroman_> gcc surely could employ some of the stuff the rust compiler does :)
14:19:18 <b_jonas> mroman_: you could interpret most of the stuff in some more well-behaved programs for a particular run, but you can't check for all input,
14:19:36 <b_jonas> or even for a fixed input, the program could run for riddiculously long time so you can't run it to completion in practice,
14:19:58 <mroman_> I was refering to doing more strict compile-time analytics.
14:20:04 <b_jonas> so you can't check if it will dereference a dangling pointer like 2**2**100 seconds later.
14:20:33 <mroman_> but yeah, that doesn't really work well with C.
14:20:55 <mroman_> I just don't like seeing compiler warnings
14:21:04 <mroman_> because it seems suspicious :)
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14:30:31 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/Teightath/blob/master/src/types.c#L42 <- I'd whish gcc would produce a warning for these things as well
14:33:35 <mroman_> and yes this means I'm back in the esolang business :)
14:34:04 <mroman_> I'm intending on writing a GolfVM in the usual VM style
14:34:13 <mroman_> i.e. not relying on too much runtime dynamic
14:34:25 <mroman_> (meaning no eval capabilities and such)
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14:41:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43130&oldid=43063 * Lesidhetree * (+813) A little update...more coming very soon.
14:42:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43131&oldid=43051 * Lesidhetree * (+375) added a little disclaimer
15:00:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43132&oldid=43130 * Lesidhetree * (+66) /* Operators */ Edited some stuff
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15:02:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43133&oldid=43132 * Lesidhetree * (-232) /* Example programs */
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15:06:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43134&oldid=43133 * Lesidhetree * (-727) Removed a few sections I felt couldn't be filled in yet.
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15:09:37 <Lyka> fine...edited th wiki
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15:16:45 <jakob__> Hey I was wondering if you know of any esoteric programming tools
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15:55:48 <HackEgo> olist 989: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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18:32:59 <oren> Um, did the C standards people know they were asking the compiler to solve the halting problem?
18:33:49 <shachaf> C isn't Turing-complete, so probably not.
18:34:56 <ais523> shachaf: it can be, nothing in the definition of files prevents them being infinitely long
18:35:01 <ais523> and that's the only sticking point
18:35:13 <oren> Good point. If C is compiled for a computer with 64K ram, could a modern computer detect all cases of overflow?
18:35:47 <shachaf> ais523: I thought the C99 definition of files didn't allow for infinitely long files.
18:36:02 <shachaf> Because you can always get the current position.
18:36:07 <ais523> shachaf: a file position's an opaque object, though
18:36:17 <ais523> so that only places a limit on how many times you can request the file position
18:36:21 <oren> doesn't it require off_t to be an integer of some kind?
18:36:24 <shachaf> But it still has to fit in memory.
18:36:37 <ais523> off_t is a struct on some systems, I think
18:36:46 <ais523> shachaf: a file position? yes, but it doesn't have to be meaningful
18:37:14 <oren> ais523: well that sure fucks up some code i've written!
18:37:29 <ais523> well, there are two file position functions
18:38:08 <ais523> one returns an integer but might not work on large files
18:38:11 <ais523> the other returns an opaque struct
18:38:47 <ais523> actually the integers are allowed to be opaque too, and are on some weird platforms
18:40:57 <oren> I seems that GCC does us the service of saying they are integers.
18:41:24 <ais523> gcc just reacts to what the type actually is
18:41:32 <ais523> rather than what it potentially could be
18:42:00 <oren> oh, right. I mean glibc not gcc
18:42:58 <oren> anyway I was using the integerness to skip to particular files within an archive and read them
18:43:56 <ais523> that's common, and if you open the file as a binary file, nearly always works
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18:49:19 <APic\splat> oren: Not having to be meaningful fucks up Your Code? What the Fuck?
18:49:48 <ais523> I always thought it was a verb
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18:50:22 <APic\splat> WordNet (r) 3.0 (2006) [wn] has both Noun and Verb.
18:50:51 <ais523> well, English doesn't have a rule of capitalizing nouns anyway, so it normally doesn't matter which it is when you're using "fuck" as part of an interjection
18:51:19 <ais523> although you are at least consistent about it, and it gives you a style of your own
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18:59:15 <oren> Fuck can be a noun or verb.
19:28:10 <tswett> oren: where does the C standard ask the compiler to solve the halting problem?
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19:28:34 <zzo38> When you want to make table/infobox/etc on wiki, you should try to do data-oriented coding, such as to allow to put SQL codes or RDF graphs (or both) with each page, and then other templates and pages can query it.
19:43:41 <fizzie> oren: ais523: off_t (which is part of POSIX, not C) does need to be an integral type. fpos_t, which is what fgetpos/fsetpos use, can be something more complicated.
19:46:16 <fizzie> (off_t is used by the file-descriptor-level lseek and some others.)
19:46:51 <shachaf> Can it be something more complicated which represents an unbounded position in a file?
19:46:56 <ais523> APic\splat: bleh, you're confusing me, both of those nouns /are/ capitalized naturally in English
19:47:06 <ais523> so the sentence doesn't look any different from normal ;-)
19:47:30 <ais523> (C is an abbreviation, Turing is a person's name)
19:48:42 <fizzie> It's a letter out of "BCPL", allegedly.
19:48:55 <ais523> tswett: it's the second letter of "BCPL" which stands for "Basic Computer Programming Language"
19:49:03 <fizzie> Combined, not Computer.
19:49:09 <fizzie> (Assuming Wikipedia is right.)
19:49:12 <ais523> huh, I guess you're right there
19:49:21 <ais523> so I guess that C is an abbreviation for Combined
19:49:30 <ais523> the book I learned compiler construction from had most of its examples in BCPL
19:49:41 <ais523> it's an interesting language, with some pretty bizarrely named keywords
19:49:55 <ais523> e.g. "test then or" rather than "if then else"
19:50:07 <APic\splat> shachaf: Probably nothing can be more complicated than the „C-Standard“.
19:50:25 <tswett> When does real English use "else" to mean "otherwise"?
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19:50:53 <ais523> tswett: it's colloquial, I think
19:51:04 <ais523> not really correct but you hear it in casual conversation sometimes
19:52:15 <b_jonas> ais523: I think some old language uses "whentrue" and "whenfalse" but I'm not sure
19:52:48 <b_jonas> probably one of those old languages that still have three-way equal-greater-less branches
19:52:48 <ais523> that's INTERCAL levels of verbosity :-)
19:53:02 <b_jonas> ais523: no, those are single tokens, single column on the card
19:53:21 <shachaf> I guess that's ifTrue: ifFalse:
19:54:36 <fizzie> Forth has the words 'if', 'then' and 'else', but due to the "syntax", it can sound a bit strange when read, since the equivalent of C a(); if (b()) then c(); else d(); e(); looks somewhat like a b IF c ELSE d THEN e
19:55:09 <fizzie> (Some people use 'ENDIF' in place of 'THEN' because of that.)
19:55:22 <b_jonas> fizzie: not much worse than python's in-expression conditional though
19:55:34 <b_jonas> new style, not golf and-or
19:55:47 <b_jonas> how does that look exactly these days?
19:56:19 <fizzie> Right, the one where "a ? b : c" maps to "b if a else c".
19:57:04 <ais523> "a and b or c" is possibly clearer, although it doesn't work if b is falsy
19:57:13 <fizzie> It can look exceedingly silly if you mix it with comprehensions, which also have the 'if' condition for filtering.
19:57:42 <tswett> Was "b if a else c" introduced in 2 or 3?
19:58:05 <fizzie> And having a nested x for e in l for x in e thing can be nasty too.
19:58:13 <tswett> If it's still in 3, then I think that's reason enough to pull a Python 3 a second time.
19:58:41 <zzo38> I have seen Forth systems with THEN built-in, ENDIF built-in, both built-in, and neither built-in (but one or the other defined in the standard library); still if you have THEN or ENDIF you can easily define the other if you want it. (I have seen one that has ENDIF built-in but defines THEN in the standard library to have the same meaning as ENDIF does.)
19:58:51 <tswett> And it would be called...
19:59:11 <fizzie> [x for s in l for x in s] is arguably an "idiom" for flattening l.
20:00:26 <fizzie> `run python -c 'l = [(1, 2), (3, 4, 5), (6, 7)]; print [x for s in l for x in s]'
20:01:12 <shachaf> > let l = [[1,2],[3,4,5],[6,7]] in [x | s <- l, x <- s]
20:01:17 <zzo38> Haskell's do-notation is like a kind of generalization of that though
20:01:29 <zzo38> So it is not limit to lists
20:02:55 <b_jonas> zzo38: and there's qbasic, which doesn't usually ignore spaces, but defines ENDIF and END IF as equivalent for historical reasons
20:03:39 <b_jonas> but BASIC generally has crazy keywords
20:03:46 <zzo38> In the QBASIC IDE if you type "ENDIF" it will automatically change it to "END IF"
20:04:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: only if you enable autoformatting, the default, which also changes a = b + c to a=b + c
20:04:17 <zzo38> And if you type a question mark it will replace it with "PRINT" for you. However, the compiler doesn't accept a question mark. (The FreeBasic compiler does, but the QuickBasic compiler doesn't accept it)
20:04:36 <b_jonas> the compiler doesn't accept the question mark? strange
20:04:45 <b_jonas> the question mark has been along for like forever
20:05:02 <b_jonas> as long as character-based free syntax basic probably
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20:05:24 <zzo38> QBASIC also changes square brackets into parentheses
20:05:29 <b_jonas> then there's the commodore 64 which allows print or pri or pR iirc
20:05:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: what? I never tried that
20:05:50 <b_jonas> where do square brackets even come from?
20:05:55 <b_jonas> are those used in any basic?
20:06:08 <zzo38> I don't know, but if you type in square brackets that is what it does.
20:07:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: that the compiler doesn't accept ? would be strange because the immediate window does, and that window doesn't do autoformat
20:07:18 <zzo38> The compiler and IDE use a few differences in what it accepts. Only the IDE accepts a question mark for PRINT, and only the compiler accepts an underscore for line continuation.
20:07:30 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I know the immediate window accepts it
20:08:01 <zzo38> Even without autoformatting it accepts ? in place of PRINT
20:09:20 <b_jonas> hmm... where do I toggle autoformatting? there's a "Syntax Checking" option but that doesn't seem to do this
20:09:34 <zzo38> I do't think there is actually such an option
20:10:01 <b_jonas> hmm, it actually inserts spaces around assignment
20:10:15 <zzo38> The main window (unless it is a "document" file type, used in QBX) will always do autoformatting, although sometimes it forgets to autoformat I don't know why
20:10:54 <b_jonas> wasn't there an option that both turned off autoformatting and let you see all subs at once as a single text?
20:11:11 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: press control-C or click the interrupt button
20:11:20 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: what language and ide?
20:11:37 <J_Arcane> I've made the poor listener go to sleep.
20:12:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: At least in QBX, if you tell it to load an additional file and tell it that the file is a "document", it will do that. However, it will not execute the file in that case.
20:12:15 -!- wundo has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
20:12:43 <b_jonas> heck, this was long ago, I don't remember
20:13:18 <b_jonas> maybe I just have to edit with an external editor and run with qbasic /run
20:13:32 <zzo38> Yes, that will do it
20:15:02 <zzo38> I still program DOS games in QBASIC. With a free implementation and the minimal emulation stuff to need, it can be done with that way too. If people try to do such thing I can even try to help with such thing too
20:15:25 -!- nys has joined.
20:16:35 <b_jonas> I have made exactly one dos game in qbasic, it's not a very good one, its first two or three level works but then the last level is completely buggy or something because I didn't finish it
20:16:57 <zzo38> I made a lot though
20:17:19 <b_jonas> but I have a couple of non-games
20:17:34 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
20:19:21 <zzo38> I also wrote a clone of the entire OASYS text-adventure-game system in QBASIC (this is because I had neither a disk nor a C compiler on the target computer) (it is even compatible with the official implementation too, except for save files)
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20:58:10 <b_jonas> hmmm... actually maybe all four levels work, sort of, and the game can be won, but the guy on the fourth level can shoots big bullets that show up for just one frame and always hit or something.
20:58:31 <b_jonas> he also usually dodges the bullets you fire, but that's a feature.
20:59:23 <b_jonas> also there's no double buffering so the whole thing flickers constantly as the screen is cleared and redrawn
21:01:25 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
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21:03:19 <b_jonas> hmm, let me try to add double-buffering
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21:08:46 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:09:49 <b_jonas> hmm, it does try to do double buffering, only somehow doesn't work
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22:01:01 <oerjan> (http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/?comic=128
22:02:37 <ais523> oerjan: huh, I was wondering earlier if mezacotta / lightning made of owls / etc. were still running
22:02:47 <ais523> I guess mezzacotta itself is still running by definition
22:02:56 <ais523> although perhaps it's effectively repeating itself all the time
22:03:09 <oerjan> lightning made of owls is a bit slow, although it's been picking up a little this week
22:03:11 <b_jonas> ais523: there were like four new strips on lmmo this month, but not much before that
22:03:21 <b_jonas> but it's always running in the sense that it accepts submissions
22:03:31 <b_jonas> I should draw some stick figures and submit there too
22:04:09 <oerjan> ais523: however, it's got 2 new comics recently, one of which i just linked to.
22:04:42 <oerjan> the other is http://www.mezzacotta.net/pomh/ which is pretty weird, also unusually _not_ made by DMM at all
22:04:43 <b_jonas> oerjan: luckily, there's a solution: a knife like in http://www.xkcd.com/248/ can get you out of not only a parenthetical or quote, but even a multipart mime file that has a delimiter that was chosen randomly and then you forgot it
22:04:46 <ais523> I haven't even heard of "the dinosaur whiteboard"
22:05:15 <b_jonas> see its about page or something
22:05:21 <b_jonas> http://www.mezzacotta.net/dinosaur/about.php
22:07:20 <oerjan> ais523: also, dmm decided to get on patreon, which was successful enought that he has started making new irregular webcomics
22:07:38 <ais523> but not successful enough that he started making new esolangs?
22:07:51 <oerjan> i don't think he advertised that possibility.
22:08:04 <b_jonas> I think it was quite open-ended about new projects
22:08:27 <b_jonas> https://www.patreon.com/dmmaus?ty=h "Other website diversions - bloggy things, gamey things, arty things."
22:09:17 <ais523> daniel temkin has a blog which I think is mostly looking at the concept of esolangs as an art form
22:09:22 <oerjan> ais523: also, square root of minus garfield is healthy as ever, the average backlog is several months
22:09:49 <b_jonas> what I don't like about his Parteon support thing is that it seems a bit dishonest:
22:10:53 <b_jonas> even with new Irregular Webcomic strips, his most popular project currently is Darths and Droids, and that's the one why people are going to support it, but he specifically doesn't advertise the Parteon donations on the Darths and Droids page because there's a very slim chance Disney might not like that
22:11:50 <b_jonas> also, he started the Parteon donation drive with a news entry saying he "hasn't made a cent" from the comics before, or something, when he's specifically asked for no money, and all support to charity instead
22:11:51 <oerjan> also i find this bizarre http://www.mezzacotta.net/blockandroll/
22:12:00 <b_jonas> ( http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1526.html is a joke of course)
22:12:00 <idris-bot> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/1526.html is a joke of course)<EOF>
22:12:38 <oerjan> pretty sure that one is older than darths & droids, anyhow
22:12:48 <oerjan> and older than disney's takeover
22:13:05 <b_jonas> and iwc doesn't use screencaps
22:13:17 <b_jonas> it might have had a few low resolution photos of book covers of course
22:13:37 <b_jonas> http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/147.html is quite funny
22:13:49 <b_jonas> no wait I maen http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/108.html
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22:16:49 <b_jonas> Planet of the Hats is still on, but has some breaks when dmm is on a vacation
22:26:02 -!- variable has joined.
22:28:39 <b_jonas> meh, esolangs. I don't need to deliberately create esolangs, because I find so many esoteric corners of langs not intended to be esoteric.
22:28:51 -!- boily has joined.
22:28:56 <b_jonas> I'd like to understand those corners, and use them.
22:30:16 <ais523> b_jonas: you like languages like compile time C++?
22:31:05 <b_jonas> well, not compile-time-only C++, but run-time C++ with a lot of things done in compile time
22:31:17 <b_jonas> but yes, even compile time C++ amazes me
22:31:29 <b_jonas> like that recent stateful constexpr function trick
22:31:59 <b_jonas> that one is crazy and people might even consider it a defect in the standard that should be fixed, I dunno
22:34:10 <ais523> does that trick actually work on compilers?
22:34:22 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know, but I suspect it does
22:34:36 <b_jonas> at least on recent compilers
22:35:24 <b_jonas> ais523: wait, what do you count as "work"
22:35:55 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:36:00 <b_jonas> anyway, I think it would work fsvo work, but I haven't tested
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22:40:33 <lambdabot> shachaf asked 23h 35m 53s ago: what do you think of smoke's poutinerie twh
22:40:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 29m 10s ago: NOOO don't leave i cannot interpret your xsampa even with wikipedia :(
22:40:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 23h 22m 42s ago: My two theories are: (1) you're trying to write bonsoerjan but have no idea what the phonetic symbols mean (2) you're actually using some african click language with a slight misprint on the 0
22:41:23 <boily> shellochaf. never wen't to. apparently very divisive, therefore a must.
22:41:54 <shachaf> boily: there's one a short walk away from where i live
22:42:00 <shachaf> but it doesn't seem to be my thing
22:42:04 <shachaf> but maybe i should try again
22:42:05 <boily> oerjan: I wrote bonsœrjan, with some creatively inserted clicks.
22:42:39 <boily> shachaf: afaik, there aren't any smoke's in Québec. I'd have to go to Ontario.
22:42:48 <boily> coppro: chelloppro. have you ever smoke'sed?
22:43:54 <shachaf> imo you should come visit and have some poutine
22:44:03 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley,_Ontario ?
22:44:04 <shachaf> there's also one in mont-tremblant hth
22:44:26 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley,_California
22:44:39 -!- ais523 has joined.
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22:46:20 <nys> there's ones around here
22:46:22 <nys> in nova scotia
22:46:34 <nys> well, there's one in halifax at least
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22:51:32 <boily> nyellos. have I ever asked you the The Question?
22:52:57 <shachaf> probably not, so i don't need to update my answer now that i've moved
22:53:23 <boily> no, you never did. you are probably the Most Reluctantest Person about the The Question.
22:53:54 <shachaf> i don't know what my body weigh is
22:54:14 <shachaf> i know what's written on my government identity card, but they didn't actually weigh me, they just believed what i wrote
22:54:30 <shachaf> and i wrote it based on what was written on my previous government identity card
22:55:40 -!- augur has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:55:56 <shachaf> copumpkin can give you an estimate, maybe
22:56:04 <oerjan> shachaf: so basically it contains your birth weight, right?
22:56:05 <boily> I'll write in you weight as '7 years ago'.
22:56:23 <shachaf> no way, i'm not telling you what's written on that card
22:56:30 <shachaf> you could steal my identity
22:56:55 <oerjan> i'm gonna dress like a baby and pretend to be you on haskell conferences!
22:57:03 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't remember ever being born hth
22:57:14 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you're going to haskell conferences?
22:57:30 <oerjan> well i'd have to start
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23:02:07 <coppro> boily: no I haven't smoked sed
23:02:19 <coppro> oh we mean the poutine place?
23:07:23 -!- augur has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
23:09:52 -!- augur has joined.
23:13:33 <Taneb> My arms or kinda sore
23:14:31 <Taneb> (I went climbing this afternoon for the first time in ages)
23:15:18 <boily> coppro: Banquise, then?
23:15:25 <boily> Tanelle. rock climbing?
23:15:43 <Taneb> Yeah, bouldering to be precise
23:17:00 <boily> nice! do you boulder in groups?
23:17:17 <Taneb> I went with some friends, yeah
23:17:23 <Taneb> Probably gonna go back next week, too
23:17:46 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
23:18:51 <Taneb> Man, I need to exercise more
23:21:14 <nys> anybody know where vanila went? >.>
23:26:55 <lambdabot> I saw vanila leaving ##crypto 12d 47m 21s ago.
23:27:24 <nys> sounds like a sketchy room...
23:27:45 <oerjan> how can it be sketchy when lambdabot is there
23:27:48 <coppro> boily: Banquise I've had
23:27:54 <shachaf> ##crypto is great because sometimes people join and try to sell bitcoin scams.
23:27:56 <coppro> I also quite like Les Trois Brasseurs' poutine
23:28:19 <shachaf> coppro: Unfortunately those aren't options here.
23:28:27 <Taneb> I'm going to be doing a module in crypto next year
23:28:50 <coppro> shachaf: where is here?
23:28:53 <boily> coppro: my favourite here is the Broue Pub's Poutiflette. it's a mix between a poutine, and a Swiss tartiflette.
23:29:04 <coppro> shachaf: hmm, I imagine it isn't
23:29:16 <shachaf> Smoke's is an option, though.
23:30:14 <boily> coppro: but you should taste my friend's poutineer: you start with a poutine layer, then top it with homemade egg curry.
23:31:01 <HackEgo> Poutine was Pouti and boily's sister until the tragic cheese accident.
23:31:23 <shachaf> poutine is just jammed up french fries
23:31:28 <Taneb> (seriously, what is poutine?)
23:31:49 <Taneb> shachaf, jammed up as in you put jam on them?
23:31:58 <shachaf> usually you don't jam them up with jam
23:32:08 <olsner> hmm, what are "cheese curds" then
23:32:09 <shachaf> but with some sort of gravy
23:32:14 <HackEgo> list/list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
23:32:27 <Taneb> Oooh, it's like chips and gravy
23:32:42 <HackEgo> fentimans/fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
23:32:51 <HackEgo> lorem ipsum/Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO
23:33:01 <Taneb> Man, I haven't had any fentimans in ages
23:33:04 <Taneb> Not since like monday
23:33:05 <olsner> oh, it seems to be similar to coffee cheese
23:33:19 <HackEgo> See misspellings of croissant
23:33:38 <shachaf> `? misspellings of croissant
23:33:39 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:34:00 <Taneb> I kind of want poutine now
23:34:04 <Taneb> Except I don't like gravy
23:34:10 <shachaf> Taneb: come to berkeley and get some hth
23:34:26 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm busy until next monday
23:35:17 <shachaf> Taneb: ok next monday then
23:35:18 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
23:35:20 <boily> Taneb: real poutine has poutine sauce. it's similar to a light bbq sauce. cheese curds should be fresh, and squeak under your teeth.
23:35:39 <Taneb> boily, hmm, that could work
23:35:39 <shachaf> boily: what does real vegetarian poutine have
23:35:59 <Taneb> shachaf, can you pay my bus fare? I'm a bit low on funds
23:36:10 <Taneb> And other transport costs
23:36:16 <shachaf> Taneb: from the airport? sure
23:36:30 <Taneb> shachaf, but the airport is like all the way on the other side of Leeds
23:37:24 <Taneb> Can you also pay my bus fare to the airport
23:37:59 <boily> shachaf: well... potatoes is vegetarian, sauce is vegetarian, cheese is vegetarian too... I guess you could replace the cheese with tofu, but I doubt it's going to be strong or stringy enough for the poutine mélange.
23:38:12 <boily> ō poutine should do the trick?)
23:38:18 <shachaf> usually poutine sauce isn't as far as i can tell
23:38:47 <boily> grilled flour, paprika, cumin, lots of water, a little bit of ketchup, more paprika?
23:39:00 <olsner> huh, no gravy in the gravy sauce?
23:39:10 <shachaf> "Brown gravy: Traditionally a light and thin chicken, veal, or turkey gravy"
23:39:19 <boily> s/flour,/flour, margarine,/
23:39:31 <boily> poutine sauce isn't brown gravy. it's poutine sauce.
23:39:42 <boily> (tsé, messemble que c't'ivident...)
23:39:54 <shachaf> smoke's has poutine and also vegetarian poutine
23:40:04 <shachaf> and deluxe vegetarian poutine
23:40:12 <shachaf> i had the deluxe but maybe i should try the ordinary
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23:41:08 <pikhq> Might go with a vegetable stock instead in the gravy. That'd *work*.
23:41:24 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure that "poutine sauce" is *a* gravy.
23:41:44 <pikhq> If not exactly matching what you'd typically want from a brown gravy.
23:42:04 <HackEgo> languabe/Languabes are edible and fun. They provide a quick implementation energy boost!
23:42:06 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
23:42:09 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
23:42:46 <HackEgo> kallisti/kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity
23:43:00 <oerjan> `learn Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
23:43:03 <HackEgo> Learned 'fternoon': Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
23:43:03 <HackEgo> ˻<I#2.9j6D5<.(*d⳥^0^d$Һ6GC0:B,@X+k&Q \ .DzΌ:;=Sv[yK2q4f)mង0 \
23:43:35 <shachaf> oerjan: is that the same as brillig? twh
23:43:50 <shachaf> perhaps they eat their fternooners in the wabe
23:45:28 <oerjan> shachaf: no, brillig is English hth
23:46:18 <olsner> I think brillig is fter the fternoon
23:49:06 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/kallisti
23:49:28 <HackEgo> kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity.
23:49:37 <HackEgo> kallisti/kallisti? ¯\(°_o)/¯
23:49:49 <olsner> why did `wisdom write that twice?
23:49:58 <oerjan> having no punctuation messes up `learn_append
23:50:03 <shachaf> It's the name of the entry.
23:50:08 <HackEgo> fact/facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
23:50:15 <oerjan> olsner: because the entry does not need to contain the name
23:50:27 <HackEgo> burlesque/Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
23:50:40 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: he faded away?
23:50:43 <olsner> right, but it usually does, and then it looks ugly
23:51:05 <shachaf> How would you have it behave?
23:51:13 <shachaf> Seeing the entry without its name can be confusing.
23:51:18 <shachaf> This format is slashlearn-compatible.
23:51:26 <boily> hellolsner. your last sentence was fungottian hth
23:51:27 <fungot> boily: any questions that we agreed that we ever. robert paul i
23:51:45 <boily> fungot: no, we never have agreed on anything. at all. *wink wink*
23:51:45 <fungot> boily: true. pleasant..
23:51:54 <olsner> slashlearn? I'm out of date with the times, it seems
23:52:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i think the more normal way would be to separate with colon-space
23:52:15 <shachaf> oerjan: but what about entries with colon-space in their name hth
23:53:15 <oerjan> olsner: no regezxes, and _certainly_ no globs.
23:53:18 <shachaf> `? real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download
23:53:19 <HackEgo> Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
23:55:50 <shachaf> and slashlearn should be fixed to use // too
23:56:03 <HackEgo> rincewind/Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
23:56:18 <HackEgo> password/The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
23:56:44 * oerjan is waiting to see an entry where an s got stripped off a singular.
23:57:25 <HackEgo> chu space/A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
23:57:41 <HackEgo> list/list is a fun program that HackEgo has! Run it with `list and join the fun!
23:57:41 <shachaf> Taneb: want to talk about Chu spaces?
23:57:49 <HackEgo> unicide/Unicide is when people can't read your suicide note because they lack the proper font.
23:57:49 <HackEgo> ananas is the real pineapple.
23:57:56 <olsner> boily: oh, before I forget, what was so fungotty?
23:57:56 <fungot> olsner: " on the street. how do we get you the updated list the employees.
23:57:59 <Taneb> oerjan, there you go, ananas
23:58:02 <oerjan> pardon me boys, is this the chattanooga chu chu
23:58:13 <Taneb> shachaf, I am afraid Chu stole all my memories of Chu spaces
23:58:39 <boily> olsner: I had spontaneous trouble while parsing your sentence.
23:58:53 <olsner> boily: ok, that can happen
23:58:59 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you're not that hott
23:59:05 <oerjan> Taneb: i meant i was waiting for `wisdom to do it, it's not funny otherwise
23:59:27 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
23:59:28 <Sgeo_> Why does the Windows 95 installer know what NTFS is? (In terms of an error message mentioning it)
00:00:02 <Sgeo_> o.O NT was released before 95
00:00:06 <shachaf> Taneb: if you solve the Chu space crossword puzzle at <http://thue.stanford.edu/puzzle.html>, you could win $2000 from Vaughan Pratt
00:00:20 <shachaf> Taneb: that's enough for air fare to berkeley, where you can have poutine
00:00:27 <boily> Sgello_. NT was released before???
00:00:37 <Taneb> shachaf, this sounds like a plan which doesn't have any flaws whatsoever
00:01:01 <boily> the plan with no flaw is not the true plan.
00:01:28 <pikhq> Yeah, NT was released in '93.
00:03:03 <pikhq> There's not *much* reason Windows 95 couldn't have used NTFS (aside from the obvious one of "oh sweet jesus we don't want to change more than we have to, cause Windows software be crazy.")
00:03:09 <olsner> I wonder if NTFS isn't older than NT, or if it was only known as HPFS at that time
00:03:20 <oerjan> for a true plan, you should ask Jim from darths & droids, unfortunately he's also in california so it won't help here.
00:03:21 <pikhq> NTFS is a fork of HPFS.
00:03:25 <olsner> NTFS probably required proper OS features
00:03:33 <olsner> like, virtual memory perhaps?
00:03:34 <Taneb> shachaf, is that asking whether the language defined has countable members?
00:04:04 <pikhq> olsner: Win95 has virtual memory.
00:04:36 <pikhq> Also, I doubt it. You could quite reasonably write an aftermarket NTFS for DOS thing. :)
00:05:36 <olsner> yeah :) I meant more that the code for NTFS required ... stuff, not that the file system itself somehow does
00:06:14 <Taneb> (well, I don't think it's technically a language in the infinite case, but...)
00:06:49 <Sgeo_> I think the Win95 installer wants scratch space
00:07:47 <Sgeo_> I don't think the Win98 installer DOS has format.exe
00:09:20 <shachaf> Proposed solution (March 23, 2015)
00:14:04 <Sgeo_> Ooh the Win98 installer formats the disk automatically, I could try that
00:16:47 <Sgeo_> I think the little "This is why windows is great" things is tied to fily copy progress
00:16:51 <Sgeo_> They go by too fast to read
00:17:18 <ais523> Sgeo_: what are you trying to do here?
00:17:40 <Sgeo_> Wanted to install Windows 95 to a VM. Gave up for a bit so installing Windows 98 to a VM
00:17:53 <Sgeo_> Glad I did because the 98 installer will do what I need for 95, I think
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00:20:27 <HackEgo> toxolotl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:20:40 <ais523> I was worried that it was something insane like needing a disk formatted as FAT16 and Windows 95 was the only program old enough to do it
00:21:07 <shachaf> I remember when we only had the Windows 95 upgrade edition.
00:21:19 <shachaf> So we'd need to put in the Windows 3.11 floppy in order to install.
00:21:28 <olsner> Sgeo_: with a windows 9x VM you could get ms comic chat going (though it does tend to crash on normal IRC traffic)
00:21:41 <shachaf> Or maybe it was both Windows 95 and Windows 98 upgrade editions?
00:21:45 <shachaf> It was a big mess, anyway.
00:22:28 <Sgeo_> ais523, I was dumb enough to grant a program on the WIndows 95 disk (that I don't know where it came from so might be genuine) admin on my real 8.1 machine in hopes that it would work. It bluescreened me, and hopefully was just a bad compatibility issue and not actual malware from 2007
00:22:36 <Sgeo_> *so might not be genuine
00:23:14 <Sgeo_> Although if you were to plant malware in a pirated OS, I think you'd go for the OS itself, not in the CDEXPO program
00:23:27 <ais523> Sgeo_: if it is actual malware from 2007, then any modern antivirus should be able to find it
00:23:55 <ais523> also, why would malware from 2007 end up on a windows 95 disk?
00:24:18 <Sgeo_> I obtained the .iso file in 2007. I don't remember where I obtained it from.
00:26:24 <pikhq> ais523: Literally anything that can do FAT can do FAT 16 though.
00:26:27 <Sgeo_> Yay Win95 setup wrking
00:26:50 -!- Lyka|Away has changed nick to Lyka.
00:26:56 <ais523> pikhq: including formatting programs?
00:26:59 <pikhq> Fun fact: FAT32 has a *minimum* volume size of 32MB.
00:27:23 <Sgeo_> Eh, Win95 wants a "20-digit Product Identification Number"
00:27:58 <ais523> Sgeo_: that's printed on the CD case, I think
00:28:27 <pikhq> As a consequence of that, pretty much anything has to do FAT16 just to handle the full range of volume sizes.
00:28:50 <ais523> what about ext2? can you sensibly format a floppy like that?
00:29:39 <pikhq> FAT32 is unique in having a minimum volume size (beyond "large enough to fit fundamental data structures")
00:29:57 <pikhq> (also, I have *done* such a floppy)
00:30:35 <pikhq> What's slightly trickier would be a FAT12 formatter.
00:30:48 <pikhq> Though IIRC Windows' formatter and mkdosfs both do that.
00:30:50 <ais523> I didn't know there was a FAT12
00:31:34 <pikhq> As well as very (very) old hard drives.
00:31:46 <Lyka> max size 20 mb
00:32:12 <pikhq> But yeah, floppies in FAT are FAT12 as a rule.
00:33:41 <pikhq> Somewhat unrelatedly, fuck ExFAT.
00:34:32 <Lyka> what's wrong with exfat? nobody ever tells me
00:34:56 <pikhq> MS asserts unspecified patents on it making it impractical to implement in a sane fashion.
00:35:24 <pikhq> ... Erm. In a sane fashion for many vendors.
00:36:21 <ais523> huh, Perl now has a warning for trying to create an infinitely long string using syntax like "a" x "Inf"
00:36:27 <ais523> I wonder what that did before
00:36:40 <ais523> IMO it should just create an infinitely long string, but I guess I'm in the minority here
00:37:06 <Lyka> why is linux ntfs support so slow?
00:37:36 <Lyka> i mean, write speeds
00:38:16 <ais523> Linux NTFS write support is relatively new, that might be related but I'm not sure
00:38:50 <pikhq> Are we talking the kernel NTFS or the FUSE one?
00:39:07 <Lyka> whichever ubuntu 15.04 uses
00:39:15 <pikhq> Probably the FUSE one then.
00:39:22 <ais523> huh, I would have guessed kernel
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00:47:03 <ais523> "Code like /$a[/ used to read the next line of input and treat it as though it came immediately after the opening bracket."
00:47:07 <ais523> wow that's a weird bug
00:47:11 <ais523> sort-of like Shellshock
00:47:31 <ais523> I wonder if it works in interpolated code? I'm guessing no without an eval, in which case it's unexpolitable
00:48:08 <ais523> oh, unexploitable anyway; it lets bits of the code you can't control affect bits of the code you can, which is the opposite of exploitable, really
00:48:19 <ais523> most you could potentially do is get hold of what one line of source looks like
00:48:54 <Sgeo_> I have a chart of OEM keys, but I don't know which version of Windows 95 this is
00:49:31 <Sgeo_> If the bits of code you can't control attempts to process the bits of code you can, could htat be a problem?
00:50:05 <pikhq> Sgeo_: What are the options of versions?
00:50:22 <ais523> `perl -e print 33 x ~3
00:50:23 <HackEgo> panic: memory wrap at -e line 1.
00:50:43 <Sgeo_> Windows 95 OEM Version, Windows 95 OEM Version (02) ... (16)
00:50:46 <ais523> apparently that's actually the intended output
00:50:49 <Sgeo_> It's definitely an OEM version
00:54:33 <Sgeo_> I think they all work
00:54:37 <HackEgo> Can't find string terminator "X" anywhere before EOF at -e line 1.
00:54:46 <HackEgo> \ This is perl 5, version 14, subversion 2 (v5.14.2) built for x86_64-linux-gnu-thread-multi \ (with 88 registered patches, see perl -V for more detail) \ \ Copyright 1987-2011, Larry Wall \ \ Perl may be copied only under the terms of either the Artistic License or the \ GNU General Public License, which may be found in the Perl 5 source kit
00:54:51 <ais523> aha, too early to crash
00:55:24 <Sgeo_> "System error Cannot read from drive A"
00:55:28 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, near "<>{" \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
00:55:43 <HackEgo> syntax error at -e line 1, near "<>{" \ Missing right curly or square bracket at -e line 1, within pattern \ Execution of -e aborted due to compilation errors.
00:55:53 <ais523> what a bizarre line of code
00:56:00 <ais523> although it's managing not to crash
00:58:10 <Sgeo_> So now two CD drives attached, Win98 in first one, Win95 in second
01:01:03 <Sgeo_> Windows Protection Error
01:02:31 <Taneb> I think I've written a (deliberately bad) fizzbuzz which runs in O(n^5) time
01:03:58 <Taneb> No, only O(n^4) I think
01:05:02 <ais523> Taneb: is it plausible-looking code, or does it have no obvious scope for optimization?
01:05:21 <Taneb> ais523, it's plausible code written by a Haskell beginner
01:05:40 <Taneb> Who is new to programming
01:05:52 <Taneb> There is so much obvious room for optimization
01:06:29 <ais523> hmm, now I'm wondering what the computational order of a Prolog FizzBuzz that doesn't use "is" is
01:06:34 <ais523> written in the most obvious way
01:06:35 <Sgeo_> Putting an execution cap of 20% worked
01:06:49 <Sgeo_> So I guess the CPU's too fast. There is a patch for it, not sure if I should bother
01:08:39 <Taneb> Experimentally, it seems roughly O(n^3.3)
01:11:48 <ais523> compiler optimizations? cache effects?
01:12:06 * Sgeo_ puts down Win95 for now
01:12:39 <Taneb> I don't want to run this with -O0, though, it took 4 minutes for n=3000 (no options to GHC), and I'm running it with n=4000 now
01:13:33 <Sgeo_> Why is a restart required between partitioning and formatting?
01:15:09 <Taneb> ais523, I'm just surprised it's a non-integer exponent
01:15:38 <Taneb> Looking at the program I think it's probably quartic
01:16:05 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I've never really encountered them?
01:16:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i remember some Big Important Algorithm having one but not what it was
01:16:45 <Sgeo_> Lyka, since DOS or Windows98's DOS or something
01:16:50 <Phantom_Hoover> an obvious practical example though is the trace of a matrix with n entries
01:17:17 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: matrix multiplication?
01:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> though you normally use side length as the n with matrix algorithms...
01:17:54 <Lyka> x^(y/z) = (z_root(x))^y
01:19:18 <oerjan> "The current O(n^k) algorithm with the lowest known exponent k is a generalization of the Coppersmith–Winograd algorithm that has an asymptotic complexity of O(n^2.3728639), by François Le Gall."
01:19:41 <oerjan> although some people suspect the limit is actually 2
01:19:47 <Lyka> what does "polynomial time" mean?
01:20:00 <oerjan> Lyka: in time bounded by a polynomial of input size
01:21:29 <oerjan> you can always use n^k because any other polynomial has one of those as an upper bound (once n > 1)
01:22:06 <oerjan> (note n is the input size and k is a constant)
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01:27:16 <HackEgo> Hallucinate_: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
01:27:28 <Taneb> ais523, http://lpaste.net/4279646507705040896 is the source if you want to look
01:28:19 <ais523> isFizz and isBuzz are O(n)
01:28:29 <oerjan> Taneb: you think a newbie could manage to get NPlusKPatterns working? i guess e might be using hugs.
01:28:48 <Taneb> oerjan, it's in a bunch of older tutorials
01:29:12 <ais523> Taneb: haha at that mapM_
01:29:15 <ais523> that's just really blatant :-)
01:29:42 <Taneb> ais523, it's the kind of mistake I could imagine myself having made
01:30:13 <ais523> what I'm confused by is if the ++ in the fizzbuzz function "stacks" with the isFizz and isBuzz being inefficient
01:30:25 <ais523> the long list is on the left, so this is O(n^2)
01:30:40 <ais523> but I think it leads to a combined O(n^2) for fizzbuzz, not O(n^3)
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01:30:46 <Taneb> I think ++ needs to go through the left, and to know the length of the left it has to do isFizz and isBuzz
01:31:24 <Taneb> ais523, yeah, and then the last is O(n), and it does it n times
01:31:29 <oerjan> what's wrong about the mapM_
01:31:29 <ais523> you have the same length in both branches of the case
01:31:40 <Taneb> ais523, depends if GHC spots that or not
01:31:59 <Taneb> oerjan, the function being mapped is what's wrong
01:32:16 <ais523> oerjan: Taneb already has a function to generate a list of fizzbuzzes, but he's creating a list of each possible length and then mapping last over it
01:32:41 <ais523> mapM_ itself is a perfectly reasonable function, but that use of it is ridiculous
01:32:52 <ais523> or, well, it's actually one of the comonad laws on List, if you read the lists backwards
01:33:33 <oerjan> also, i think that use of ++ is O(n^2) overhead
01:34:54 <shachaf> You mean the comonad in Mon you get from the adjunction?
01:35:11 <ais523> shachaf: List as a comonad, one of the comonad operations (M x -> x) is head, and the other (M x -> M M x) is a list of all suffixes of the input list
01:35:19 <shachaf> I don't know what you mean, I'm at my phone and missed falls the conversation.
01:35:23 <ais523> err, this works on nonempty lists only
01:35:44 <ais523> Taneb's doing basically that in reverse: prefixes and last
01:36:06 <shachaf> What's the comonad I described called?
01:36:32 <ais523> I'm not aware of a name for it
01:36:37 <ais523> or even knew it existed
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01:40:23 <oerjan> since it's in Mon it only works if Monoid x, i take
01:40:49 <oerjan> (M x -> x) would be mconcat
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01:41:32 <Taneb> oerjan, I think what would was described would be mconcat . reverse
01:41:36 <oerjan> (M x -> M (M x)), what's that
01:41:52 <oerjan> Taneb: i don't think shachaf included reversal
01:42:13 <Taneb> oerjan, ais523 said if you read the lists backwards, which I was trying to include
01:42:28 <oerjan> Taneb: shachaf's comment wasn't directly relevant to your code
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01:44:58 <Taneb> So, what's the verdict on the complexity of my fizzbuzz?
01:45:54 <oerjan> only the last element gets isFizz etc. evaluated
01:46:03 <Sgeo_> Booting from CD into HD broke the VM... but blue screened even when I got rid of that
01:46:09 <Taneb> oerjan, are you sure?
01:48:25 <oerjan> shachaf: either that or just (:[])? i cannot wrap my brain around that much.
01:48:47 <Taneb> oerjan, the core for the program hasn't optimized the isFizz and isBuzz checks out
01:49:04 <Taneb> For non-last elements
01:50:27 <oerjan> <Taneb> ais523, depends if GHC spots that or not <-- i think because of bottom, ghc cannot legally do that
01:51:09 <ais523> oerjan: can't it infer that isFizz and isBuzz are total?
01:51:23 <ais523> or is it possible to create an infinitely large Integer in Haskell?
01:51:41 <Taneb> ais523, firstly, they take Int, not Integer
01:51:48 <oerjan> <ais523> or even knew it existed <-- every adjunction between two categories gives a monad in one, and comonad in the other.
01:51:53 <Taneb> Also, if they took Integer, they would be undefined with n = -1
01:52:47 <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist
01:53:30 <Taneb> `addquote <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist <ais523> they're so unnatural
01:53:34 <HackEgo> 1241) <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist <ais523> they're so unnatural
01:53:58 <ais523> wow, I didn't even realise that was a pun until you `addquoted it
01:54:28 <oerjan> <ais523> or is it possible to create an infinitely large Integer in Haskell? <-- nope, only bottom.
01:55:19 <ais523> what would have been embarrassing would be if I'd missed the pun altogether
01:55:21 <ais523> anyway, time to go home
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01:58:31 <oerjan> ok, F U -> I, that's mconcat. I -> U F, that's (:[])
01:59:27 <shachaf> Right. And you have FU->FUFU = F eta
01:59:54 <shachaf> This is pretty awkward on a phone.
02:01:06 <oerjan> F I U = F U -> F U F U = F (U F) U
02:01:28 <oerjan> so it should be F (:[]) U in a sense
02:02:14 <shachaf> Yes, but (:[]) is polymorphic hth
02:03:50 <oerjan> it's just that my brain doesn't have quite the power to convince itself of the last step
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02:17:11 <Taneb> I'm going to go to sleep now, goodnight!
02:33:23 <Lyka> what's the function that turns a number like 77 (7 * 11) to 60 (6 * 10) ?
02:36:36 <Lyka> i mean from (x*y), where x and y are prime, to ((x-1)*(y-1))
02:37:03 <oerjan> not sure if it has a name
02:37:51 <oerjan> the euler totient function
02:38:23 <oerjan> however, if a prime can occur more than once, you need to be more specific.
02:41:12 <oerjan> your definition isn't very clear on what to do for numbers _not_ of that form.
02:41:55 <Lyka> all i remembered involved semiprimes
02:41:57 <oerjan> but if you have two different primes x and y, the totient function fits.
02:42:13 <oerjan> and is what you need for RSA and the like
02:43:35 * Lyka is glad his "big brother", the NSA, is "supposed" to stop watching this channel...
02:44:00 <oerjan> this channel is publicly logged hth
02:44:39 <Lyka> (if you don't know what i mean by "Big Brother", see "1984")
02:45:23 <Lyka> i got cofused after the first sentence
02:45:36 <Lyka> but i read the wikipedia entry
02:46:35 <Lyka> "It was a bright cold day in april when the clocks struck 13."
02:46:47 <Lyka> i think that was the first line
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02:53:29 * Lyka is currently recovering from being drugged by his doctors with cognitive-inhibiting side-effects for four years before it got bad enough that he forgot that his name belonged to him and was not just a nickname.
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02:55:58 <Lyka> before i started on that medication, I used to shake like crazy. Sgeo probably reembers.
03:02:44 <oren> what's the opposite of an extension?
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03:06:07 <oerjan> what kind of extension
03:21:40 <oren> oerjan: like an extension to a language
03:22:09 <oren> what's the term for a version of a language which removes, rather than adds, features
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06:34:41 <mroman_> Lyka|Away: what kind of drugs did they put you on and what for?
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07:03:26 <Taneb> The OTHER fizzbuzz I wrote, features a 250 character type signature
07:04:09 <Taneb> Consisting only of functions between type variables and a three-character type synonym
07:04:21 <Taneb> ((Num -> Num -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n) -> Num -> Num -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n) -> Num -> Num -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n
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07:07:43 <Taneb> (with type Num = forall a. (a -> a) -> a -> a)
07:24:06 <FireFly> I'm afraid to ask what that type signature does in your fizzbuzz
07:26:15 <Taneb> It's a fixed point combinator
07:39:29 <Jafet> :t fix (?f :: m -> m -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n)
07:40:02 <Jafet> :t \f -> fix (f :: m -> m -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n)
07:40:35 <Jafet> :t \f -> fix (f :: (m -> m -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n) -> (m -> m -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n))
07:40:49 <Taneb> :t fix ?f :: m -> m -> (s -> n -> n) -> n -> (a -> s) -> (a -> a) -> a -> s -> s -> s -> n
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09:11:04 <mroman_> Taben's always abusing Haskell.
09:11:17 <mroman_> fungot: Do you abuse Haskell?
09:11:17 <fungot> mroman_: are we also trying.' automated and must be in the form of the continue button. norris is a month.... in error!
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10:30:58 <fungot> Jafet: probably get an inventory of the right of the best to keep the california power market.
10:45:25 <fungot> boily: right where they left what i
10:45:37 <fungot> boily: know where the meeting on the construction industry."? 11 am.
10:46:10 <boily> fungot: no. but I got some obscure fuzzy meeting Thursday afternoon with our QC VP.
10:46:10 <fungot> boily: next to equity. pete wilson both the financial deal that was from the new more efficient.
10:46:23 <int-e> fungot: oh do you know anything about the calculus of constructions?
10:46:23 <fungot> int-e: for that reason, the work of the sheet that you send to the top the ibm and america two countries separated and an expected time frame.
10:46:29 <boily> fungot: pete wilson. I'll remember. her name was pete wilson.
10:46:29 <fungot> boily: bond issuance- 12b not enough that the business of new/ existing application systems or business trip you wish to have quicker to put you on the same for the other susan scott...i'm with nat gas spread in 2001 that will not let
10:46:50 <boily> int-ello. calculus of construction?
10:48:14 <int-e> The Calculus of Constructions (CoC) is a type theory created by Thierry Coquand. ... I'm also hearing it's the basis of Coq.
10:49:33 <int-e> but I asked fungot because it mentioned the construction industry.
10:50:32 <fungot> boily: they partially to increase. moritzburke associate oakland. dte energy trading and the will of the california legislature.
10:53:06 <int-e> it works c⃬⃑lockwise and c⃬⃐ounterclockwise
10:53:23 <Jafet> Constructive chicken.
10:53:29 <int-e> except I messed up the arrow below the first c
10:53:56 <HackEgo> U+0078 LATIN SMALL LETTER X \ UTF-8: 78 UTF-16BE: 0078 Decimal: x \ x (X) \ Uppercase: U+0058 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+20D0 COMBINING LEFT HARPOON ABOVE \ UTF-8: e2 83 90 UTF-16BE: 20d0 Decimal: ⃐ \ ⃐ \ Category: Mn (Mark, Non-Spacing) \ Bidi: NSM (Non-Spacing Mark) \ Combining: 230 (Abov
10:54:14 <boily> `chicken harpooned
10:54:15 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: chicken: not found
10:54:24 <boily> `CHICKEN HARPOONED
10:54:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: CHICKEN: not found
10:56:01 <int-e> Hah. The font that gucharmap uses gets this wrong... "combining rightwards harpoon with barb downwards" points to the left.
10:56:28 <int-e> maybe this is better anyway. c⃔ c⃕
10:57:08 <Jafet> Hope they don't ever handle a real harpoon
10:57:26 <boily> harpoon should be double-ended, so you can't misorient them.
11:05:25 <Melvar> Are all C struct types with fields of all the same names and matching types matching types, or do they have to have the same struct name if they have a struct name at all?
11:08:47 <Jafet> `cc struct a {int x;}; struct b{int x;}; struct a a = (b){};
11:08:54 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:52: error: ‘b’ undeclared here (not in a function) \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
11:08:56 <Jafet> `cc struct a {int x;}; struct b{int x;}; struct a a = (struct b){};
11:08:57 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:59: error: invalid initializer \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
11:08:59 <int-e> boily: somehow that made me think of these devices, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Drevnosti_RG_v3_ill130c_-_Caltrop.jpg
11:09:40 <Jafet> `cc typedef struct {int x;} a; typedef struct {int x;} b; a a = (b){}; // probably not either
11:09:41 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:57: error: ‘a’ redeclared as different kind of symbol \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
11:09:51 <Jafet> `cc typedef struct {int x;} a; typedef struct {int x;} b; a x = (b){};
11:09:52 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:43: error: invalid initializer \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
11:10:15 <Jafet> `cc typedef struct {int x;} a; a x = (a){};
11:10:16 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:16: error: initializer element is not constant \ compilation terminated due to -Wfatal-errors.
11:11:06 <boily> int-e: ah, the safety harpoon with extra spikes to be sure you skewer your prey properly.
11:15:58 <fizzie> Melvar: I don't think "matching type" is a C term at all, but "two structure -- types declared in separate translation units are compatible if their tags and members satisfy the following requirements: If one is declared with a tag, the other shall be declared with the same tag. If both are completed anywhere within their respective translation units, then the following additional requirements ...
11:16:04 <fizzie> ... apply: [member stuff]."
11:17:05 <Melvar> fizzie: I didn’t know what the C term was. Thank you.
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11:32:38 <fizzie> Melvar: Note also the requirement of two separate translation units. After a struct { int a; int b; } x; struct { int a; int b; } y; in a single translation unit, the types of a and b are not compatible, AIUI.
11:32:53 <fizzie> Er, the types of x and y, I mean.
11:38:01 <int-e> `poulet dismembered
11:41:32 <int-e> `` ls /usr/share/dict
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11:43:05 <int-e> so does hackego have a word list?
11:44:00 <HackEgo> ralminisialobiitatifiiiscerk
11:44:02 <int-e> `` (cd wisdom; ls) | grep ed$ | wc
11:45:39 <int-e> `` find / -name words 2>/dev/null
11:47:02 <int-e> oh well. > echo $(grep ed$ /usr/share/dict/words | shuf -n 10)
11:47:02 <int-e> randomized snaffled encased enlightened respired ransomed sunned appealed endowed unclogged
11:47:07 <int-e> (love the first one)
11:48:21 <HackEgo> ¡Bienvenido al centro internacional para el diseño y despliegue de lenguajes de programación esotéricos! Por desgracia, la mayoría de nosotros no hablamos español. Para obtener más información, echa un vistazo a nuestro wiki: http://esolangs.org/. (Para el otro tipo de esoterismo, prueba #esoteric en EFnet o DALnet.)
11:48:50 <oerjan> (realized my sed was potentially shoddy)
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11:54:18 <oerjan> i see xkcd's beret guy has a new job. at least this one seems to have long time prospects.
11:57:45 <oerjan> i also foresee weight gain in zeetha's future.
12:06:08 <oerjan> int-e: i think agatha might need some lessons from klaus in how to ignore unauthorized biographies twh
12:10:45 <int-e> oerjan: I think I have not read today's GG yet. Some people have to work ;)
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12:20:41 <int-e> I call it an inconvenient truth.
12:26:26 <oerjan> wait what, coca-cola doesn't actually contain cola?
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13:24:01 <fizzie> It contains "natural flavourings".
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13:29:12 <fizzie> I've been under the impression that it still contains something derived from processed coca leaves, though.
13:30:40 <fizzie> Supposedly, they extract out the cocaine and <strike>sell it on the black market</strike> properly dispose of it.
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14:23:39 <Lyka> mroman_: inderal (propranolol). it's a beta blocker, and i took it for tremors caused by lithium
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14:26:36 <J_Arcane> Sourceforge has now hijacked Nmap. http://seclists.org/nmap-dev/2015/q2/194
14:27:42 <Lyka> you mean the port scanner, right?
14:28:42 <J_Arcane> SF has hijacked the repo and is distributing bogus trojan downloads like they did with GIMP.
14:29:51 <Lyka> oh. SF always offers the newest file, not the correct-est file
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14:30:26 <J_Arcane> Lyka: because they are running out of money, and this will make them some.
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14:38:54 <Jafet> Maybe GPLv4 will include a clause against cnetization (mcnetization?).
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15:10:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFQ]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43135 * Esowiki201529A * (+276) Created page with "== Quine == ++>+++++++>++>++++++++>+>+++++++>++>+++>++>+++>+++>+++>+>+>+++++++>++++>++>++>++++++>++>+++>+>+>+>++++++++>++>++++++>++++>++>++++>++++>++++>+>+>+>++++++++>++>++>+..."
15:12:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFQ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43136&oldid=43135 * Esowiki201529A * (+23)
15:13:45 <Taneb> Esowiki201529A strikes again
15:13:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFQ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43137&oldid=43136 * Esowiki201529A * (+4) /* Quine */
15:16:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFQ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43138&oldid=43137 * Esowiki201529A * (+9)
15:19:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFQ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43139&oldid=43138 * Esowiki201529A * (+73) /* */
15:25:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BFQ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43140&oldid=43139 * Esowiki201529A * (+35)
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16:52:16 <oren> int-e: what is it, dear?
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16:59:46 <int-e> Well, the world has received another brainfuck clone, apparently with the sole purpose of writing a quine.
17:02:27 <J_Arcane> Holy shit. https://twitter.com/synackpse/status/606088427222769664
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17:39:18 <lambdabot> VABB 031710Z 29007KT 3500 HZ SCT020 31/25 Q1007 NOSIG
17:51:48 <lambdabot> LOWI 031720Z 05009KT 020V100 9999 FEW080 BKN100 26/14 Q1021 NOSIG
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18:20:46 <Vorpal> I think I figured out how to make this bluetooth headset work with my laptop:
18:20:56 <Vorpal> killall pulseaudio, sudo /etc/init.d/bluetooth restart; pactl load-module module-bluetooth-discover; disable and enable bluetooth from menu, then try to connect to headset. From the computer.
18:21:13 <Vorpal> This appears to work. And it is stupid. And no "normal" user would ever figure it out...
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18:49:08 <pikhq> Huh! People in American Samoa are generally not citizens of any statew.
18:49:19 <HackEgo> phantom__________hoover/OK you got me there.
18:49:34 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
18:49:42 <pikhq> i.e. they are not US citizens, or citizens of anywhere else.
18:50:12 <pikhq> That is really weird.
18:53:23 <pikhq> (specifically, American Samoa doesn't count as US soil for purposes of birthright citizenship, and people there are unlikely to otherwise have a citizenship)
18:54:09 <pikhq> So. Fucking. Weird.
18:55:51 * pikhq continues twiddling thumbs hoping to hear back from Google.
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19:20:02 <Vorpal> pikhq, what do you expect google to do?
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19:24:47 <shachaf> whoa whoa whoa, you think Vorpal is going to hire you just like that?
19:25:00 <int-e> pikhq: are you watching John Oliver's show or is there another recent source for this information?
19:25:14 <pikhq> int-e: Random Wikipedia.
19:25:34 <shachaf> What sort of Google things do you want to do?
19:26:35 <pikhq> "Keep Google running".
19:26:52 <pikhq> (that's the cliff notes version of the site reliability engineer role I applied for)
19:27:23 <shachaf> fsvo "Google" and "running"
19:27:55 <pikhq> Their hiring process is less efficient than I'd like though.
19:27:58 <int-e> You're running Google off a cliff?
19:28:19 <pikhq> That's what I applied for.
19:29:53 <shachaf> I guess you don't apply for a specific team or anything like that?
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19:31:25 <shachaf> Apparently some people do know in advance. But I didn't know what I'd be doing until the end of my first day.
19:36:18 <pikhq> At the least, interviews went well and were pretty fun.
19:37:54 <shachaf> Did you do interviews in Mountain View?
19:38:48 <pikhq> Didn't have that much time in the area though: practically flew in, interviewed, and flew out.
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22:33:48 <oerjan> <shachaf> What sort of Google things do you want to do? <-- * briefly wonders if this channel has more bots or google employees
22:34:12 <shachaf> i think it only has one Google employee hth
22:34:23 <pikhq> The Google recruiter has said that all the interviewers thought I was quite good, and believes I have the job. *Unfortunately*, there's a few steps between that and actually getting a confirmation.
22:34:27 <oerjan> and might soon have two?
22:34:40 <shachaf> it's had as many as three in the past
22:34:46 <Taneb> I believe, but am not sure, that we have more than three bots
22:34:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well we cannot really say about all the lurkers, can we?
22:35:23 <Taneb> Also I never finished writing my bot in Agda
22:35:28 <Taneb> Or really got started, I guess
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22:35:44 <shachaf> pikhq: you should be on gmail hth
22:36:19 <b_jonas> fungot, do we have more than three bots?
22:36:19 <fungot> b_jonas: over the next few years on the strength of the enron's unique. charles rangel and ways of doing.
22:36:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
22:36:43 <shachaf> I didn't know there was an Enron style.
22:38:53 <fizzie> An SRE told me that SRE's are the people who fix the things SWE's broke. But he might have been a biased source.
22:39:02 <pikhq> shachaf: Why Gmail?
22:39:09 <pikhq> fizzie: That sounds about right.
22:39:17 <boily> fizziello. what's a SRE twh?
22:39:59 <shachaf> pikhq: I was on Gmail SRE.
22:40:03 <fizzie> boily: The person who fixes... oh, you mean the abbreviation? Site Reliability Engineer.
22:40:20 <shachaf> And SWE is Soft Ware Engineer
22:40:39 <pikhq> "Site reliability engineer". More-or-less a dev ops sort of role, where you're a developer that is most heavily focused on keeping things working.
22:40:51 <oerjan> hm yafgc hasn't updated
22:40:58 <oerjan> so much for the new regular schedule
22:41:15 <boily> pikhq: the support guy who has the misfortune of knowing how to code?
22:41:23 <olsner> hmm, is it more fun to break things or fix things?
22:41:45 <shachaf> boily: I don't think that's an accurate description.
22:41:48 <boily> shachaf: I managed to pass this Acronym Check by rolling over 15 with my wisdom modifier.
22:41:58 <pikhq> You're *not* a customer facing support guy or anything.
22:42:09 <pikhq> Think more "the guy with the pager when a server breaks"
22:42:22 <boily> uuuuuuuurgh. bleh! not a job for me at all.
22:42:33 <shachaf> Well, that, and "the folks who make sure it doesn't break in the first place".
22:42:34 <boily> I like my hours in accordance with the sun, and on weekdays.
22:42:38 <olsner> pager, yeah, that's instant disqualification
22:43:27 <shachaf> also if SREs were paged every time a server broke...
22:43:27 <pikhq> My understanding is that you're on call on rotation rather than all the time.
22:43:34 <pikhq> Because that's nightmarish.
22:43:35 <shachaf> it's more like "the datacenter broke"
22:43:38 <pikhq> Not to mention, yes, that.
22:44:03 <fizzie> "The processing pipeline broke, and we're losing $20 million per hour."
22:44:08 <boily> or "the datacenter spontaneously disappeared".
22:44:15 <shachaf> Yes, on-call rotations, and people in multiple time zones, depending on the team.
22:44:25 <boily> fizzie: eh? 20e6 $/h???
22:44:28 <pikhq> You're more likely to get paged when something is actually causing issues, not just when a server crashes because c'mon, this is Google. Hardware malfunctions are a parameter you design for.
22:44:50 <fizzie> Probably usually not quite that much.
22:45:24 <shachaf> boily: https://investor.google.com/earnings/2014/Q4_google_earnings.html says that Google's revenue for 2014 was $66e9
22:45:27 <boily> I hope. like, every day with an outage, we're losing a whole country's GDP. la dee da.
22:45:34 <boily> shachaf: AAAAAAAAAAAH!
22:45:38 <fizzie> But Google's revenue, according to Google, is $66 billion/year, so if you break all of it, it's like $7-8 million/hour.
22:45:56 <pikhq> Probably depends on the hour.
22:46:01 <fizzie> Granted, you might have to try pretty hard to break all of it.
22:46:28 <boily> we should try and temporarily break the Whole of Google, just to see what happens.
22:46:53 <fizzie> Today a colleague told me that I will be a "noogler" ('new employee') until I break something in production.
22:47:27 <fizzie> We were discussing the definition; there seem to be multiple opinions on when exactly you're no longer new.
22:47:42 <olsner> when you're older than the other guys?
22:47:48 <shachaf> Anyway with a big system like Google "down" isn't really a binary value.
22:48:06 <shachaf> Some part of it is always down. You just try to keep that number low.
22:48:10 <olsner> I sort of think of everyone hired after me as "new" employees
22:48:15 <fizzie> olsner: That's pretty vague, too. Though there's a page that shows your percentile.
22:48:17 <pikhq> Within tolerances.
22:48:18 <olsner> even if it was 6 years ago
22:48:26 <fizzie> As in, "X % of employees were hired after you".
22:48:32 <shachaf> fizzie: what's your percentile twh
22:48:47 <fizzie> I forgot. Less than 10% are newer than me, anyway.
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22:50:16 <boily> fungot: are you a newbot?
22:50:16 <fungot> boily: as the first. thanks. fred
22:50:27 <boily> fungot: I'm not fred.
22:50:27 <fungot> boily: confidential attached the " i
22:50:38 <boily> fungot: oh. your secret identity? I knew it!
22:50:39 <fungot> boily: keep the faith and in a manner the person that you outbid the person i know in it that i wanted you to know that the document that i went the spirit of the earnings of each investment choice against its risk of losses the power and to gaming the market, and to get any more " out of the plants that not only survive, but that the different,
22:51:03 <olsner> fungot: do you google?
22:51:03 <fungot> olsner: 1. i watch people, sip. power authority of the work that we
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23:21:47 <oerjan> `` poulet amnesiac # hoily
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23:27:57 <boily> `` poulet existing # hellørjan
23:28:12 <boily> I'm not amnesiac. only temporally unreminisced.
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23:36:42 <HackEgo> 304) <monqy> my most fresh dream is one where I'm at a soup contest and a chicken really wants to participate but he's disqualified so he becomes the judge. when all the soups are done and he's ready to taste them he just stares at the soup and then I become the chicken and I really want to make soup \ 605) <Darth_Cliche> There's British KFC? Kent
23:37:07 <olsner> I think the monqy one could be boily
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23:44:47 <oerjan> nys: does that mean you are monqy
23:45:29 <nys> no but monqy is not currently here
23:45:53 <HackEgo> perl/Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
23:45:55 <oerjan> nys: i haven't seen em for a *long* time
23:46:31 <oerjan> nys: what information do you have that makes you sure boily is not monqy twh
23:47:22 <oren> I was given a programming test. Which was not fizzbuzz.
23:48:01 <HackEgo> banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
23:48:25 <HackEgo> lambdabot/lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
23:48:27 <nys> oh shachaf what are symmetric lenses
23:49:07 <nys> i'm nys :<
23:49:20 <nys> haha i'm serious i'm not!
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23:49:56 <nys> i just saw a branch of lens called "symmetric" and i was wondering what it was all about
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23:51:26 <shachaf> well there are a few different meanings of the term
23:51:43 <shachaf> that branch refers to the "(g a -> f b) -> g s -> f t" kind
23:52:47 <nys> is it the edit lenses thing?
23:54:25 <oerjan> is g a Functor or ContraVariant
23:54:29 <boily> oerjan: sorry, was idle for a moment there (cooking supper and washing dishes). apparently I'm monqy and/or mnoqy?
23:54:46 <oerjan> (if the latter, this would seem a subset of profunctor lenses?)
23:55:14 <shachaf> But you get contravariance because it's on the left side of the ->
23:55:31 <oerjan> boily: that's the theory.
23:56:02 <boily> uhm. well. chickens exists. Canada exists. I'm not mnoqy. qed.
23:56:27 <oerjan> boily: a fine argument, although you should include some pho or poutine hth
23:56:44 <nys> i think today i just managed to get a hold of why an initial F-algebra is a thing
23:56:55 <nys> do i have the mental capacity to grasp these symmetric lenses
23:57:14 <shachaf> initial F-algebras are great
23:57:19 <shachaf> lambek's lemma is p. nifty
23:57:38 <shachaf> except for the usual category thing where it's obvious
23:57:42 <lambdabot> TomLeinster says: In subjects such as number theory and combinatorics, some questions are simple to state but extremely hard to answer. Basic category theory is not like that. To understand the question is very nearly to know the answer.
23:59:35 <boily> oerjan: one day, there'll be a Vietnamese poutine. it's going to be glorious.
23:59:57 <nys> what's lambek's lemma.
00:00:15 <shachaf> oerjan: on that day you'll be poutine your place hth
00:00:24 <shachaf> it's a lemma named after lambek
00:00:36 <nys> oh that explains it
00:01:03 <shachaf> it says that an initial f-algebra is an isomorphism
00:01:09 <shachaf> http://www.cs.indiana.edu/cmcs/categories.pdf
00:02:21 <shachaf> Except I think they mean g : a -> Fa?
00:05:12 <oerjan> alas my experience with vietnamese cuisine consists of 2 visits to a place in trondheim that were both disappointments. i don't think they were very good cooks.
00:06:06 <nys> wait how do we know f.g = id_A on p46
00:06:23 <oerjan> as in, my impression of the soup was "dishwashing water"
00:09:51 <oerjan> and the pork meat was sour. although maybe that's me, i keep having trouble with the ham slices i buy from the grocery shop.
00:10:53 <oerjan> (now i only buy it because they keep sending me coupons for it)
00:13:01 <oerjan> nys: diagram chasing hth
00:13:29 * oerjan hasn't looked at the proof, but this being CT that has to be the answer
00:13:51 <nys> it says "by initiality" but i can't guess what that means here
00:14:31 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't think that's what diagram chasing is hth
00:14:35 <oerjan> an initial object is one that has exactly one morphism from it to everything
00:14:41 <shachaf> "initiality" probably means uniqueness
00:15:21 <nys> only one way to go from F a to a and back??
00:15:27 <shachaf> But probably it means "this thing is equal to that thing because there's only one arrow between those things"
00:15:32 <oerjan> shachaf: ok, then is has be general abstract nonsense hth
00:16:41 <oerjan> why does my brain punish my jokes by making me forget grammar
00:16:57 <shachaf> this abstract nonsense is p. specific
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00:42:51 * Sgeo_ comes to the conclusion that "good translations" of Evillious Chronicles are a myth
00:47:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43141&oldid=43129 * Esowiki201529A * (+8) /* Quiney */
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02:24:46 <tswett> "What's yellow and equivalent to the axiom of choice"?
02:24:57 <tswett> Y'guys, y'guys, I think I know the answer to this one.
02:25:48 <Lyka> free willy is an orca
02:27:20 <shachaf> Oh, I thought it would be the Bananach Tarski theorem.
02:28:04 <tswett> Does that entail the axiom of choice in ZF?
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02:28:42 <oerjan> it only applies to one set, after all.
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02:31:51 <shachaf> But a lemon isn't equivalent to the axiom of choice either.
02:33:32 <oerjan> it could be a class lemon
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02:34:23 <shachaf> when zorn gives you lemmas, make lemmanade
02:35:31 <tswett> I guess it's hard to imagine how it would entail the axiom of choice.
02:36:51 <tswett> "How do we select an element from each of the elements of this collection of nonempty collections?" "Oh, that's easy. Just use this way of disassembling a 3-ball and assembling it into two 3-balls of the original size."
02:39:06 <oerjan> tswett: i suspect that having the axiom of choice for sets of cardinality less than a given one doesn't imply it in general.
02:39:27 <tswett> That definitely sounds like the sort of thing that would be true.
02:40:00 <tswett> Ooh, I just thought of a wonderful axiom.
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02:40:20 <tswett> It contradicts ZF, but maybe ZF could reasonably be weakened to accommodate it.
02:40:55 <tswett> Axiom: if S is an infinite set of sets, then there does not exist any function f with domain S which maps each element T of S onto an element of T.
02:41:07 <tswett> Which is to say, all infinite cartesian products are empty.
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02:42:50 <oerjan> sounds tricky, too many obvious counterexamples e.g. non-zero ordinals...
02:43:09 <oerjan> (von neumann ordinals)
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02:44:59 <oerjan> wait that "onto" should be "to", right?
02:45:18 <oerjan> "onto" has additional implications
02:47:18 <tswett> Although I don't think the additional implications would be meaningful the way I used the word.
02:53:11 <tswett> Okay, here's a totally unrelated idea.
02:53:59 <tswett> Weaken the axiom of power set so that it merely asserts that given a set, there's another set containing all its *finite* subsets.
02:55:37 <oerjan> hm are we sure that cannot be proved directly
02:55:54 <tswett> You can still define real numbers, I think. As long as you can get cartesian products of two infinite sets.
02:56:16 <tswett> But now real numbers may form a proper class.
02:56:36 <tswett> Whelp, I'd better go to bed.
02:56:53 <oerjan> yes, please sleep before you unravel logic and the universe
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04:49:54 <oren> I just realized something blindingl obvious.
04:50:38 <oren> if you want unix type security on windows, jsut create a new user with no admin privileges, and log in as that user
04:51:51 <oren> if everyone had done that in the XP days, most of the viruses etc would never had worked
04:52:05 <Lyka> you need xp pro to do that
04:53:34 <constant> Lyka: XP home had no non-admin accts?
04:53:55 <oren> it probabl had no gui for doing it maybe
04:54:17 <Lyka> i meen, correct
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06:44:40 <mroman_> variable: XP Home didn't even have the advanced security settings.
06:44:59 <mroman_> Only a subset of the ACL settings XP Professional was capable of.
06:46:40 <mroman_> (Mainly in explorer the security tab on XP home was deactivated and stuff like that)
06:47:34 <mroman_> (It might very well be, that XP Home under the hood would actually be capable of handling the ACL. There are some third party tools around that claim to be able to set those
06:48:08 <mroman_> or even re-enable the security tab. But of course, Microsoft did never recommend it, never supported it and third party tools messing with windows internals... meh)
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06:48:34 <Jafet> You would also have gotten unix type end-user experience with an unprivileged user account in windows xp
06:48:53 <mroman_> I think you can't join a AD-domain with XP Home.
06:49:05 <mroman_> not the official way at least :D
06:50:21 <mroman_> XP Home has a guest account that is enabled per default
06:50:27 <mroman_> because that's a good thing to have.
06:50:47 <mroman_> fungot: Are you still running on Windows XP?
06:51:01 <mroman_> fungot: That's what I was asking...
06:51:01 <fungot> mroman_: we could let laurie" mahonlpbworld.com on 01/ 10 to 4, then that is not an option. huble, amanda subject to the message that do not have the option of " truing up.
06:51:44 <MDream> I guess fungot doesn't have access to environmental variables.
06:51:44 <fungot> MDream: our will group 408-501-7853 p 408-501-7861 f michelle montague-bruno director of the week of the handle came off the " an event of any technical difficulty, to provide you a low. group about adding the demand contracts that we
06:52:12 <MDream> That was more garbled than usual.
06:53:31 <oerjan> fungot is playing corrupt
06:53:31 <fungot> oerjan: for the next and employees. or, you can efficiently. cadogan
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07:30:01 <oren> I am working on a spec for a language defined on top of data structures. Not just lists, as in lisp. The base language must support strings, lists of mixed types, and dictionaries from strings to mixed types.
07:30:33 <oren> So, JSON and YAML work, for example.
07:30:51 <oren> As does python
07:32:45 <oren> And PERL Data::Dumper format of course
07:36:00 <oren> So yeah, it has no fixed syntax, it is amorphous.
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07:45:02 <oren> I haven't got a name for it yet.
07:46:26 <oren> I'll make an interpreter sometime around whenevuary
07:48:26 <oren> Maybe I should literally call the language 'insert name here'
07:50:20 <oren> So a program is a block. A block is a mixed list of strings, dictionaries and lists, where the first item must not be a string.
07:51:27 <oren> The items in a block, are strings = comments, dictionaries = class/object thingies, and lists = statements
07:52:33 <oren> a statement begins always with a string.
07:56:53 <oren> Certain reserved strings are used for control flow, otherwise the string is a variable name. (Because of this variable names can be as long as you want and contain any character.)
07:59:47 <oren> Actually, never mind, I can do without.
08:00:23 <oren> No, wait that wouldn't work
08:11:39 <oren> example statement in JSON syntax: ['if',['x','=',3],[['stdout','print',"It's three!\n"]]]
08:12:53 <b_jonas> oren: ok, so how exactly would this differ from lisps besides not always having the function name at the first place of a list?
08:14:08 <oren> It would differ in that classes are dictionaries, you have mutable variables, and it's imperative.
08:14:35 <b_jonas> oren: lisps have mutable variables too
08:14:43 <b_jonas> you can use them imperatively
08:18:25 <oren> Also, within a block, comments are just strings, e.g. [['stdout','print',"Hello world\n"],"This is a comment"] Hence, the code can be translated from one format to another, reformatted, turned into BSON, etc, and the comments retain their place.
08:18:53 <b_jonas> so? you could add such comments to a lisp program too
08:19:16 <b_jonas> people use such strings embedded in code as doc-strings in some languages -- I'm not sure if it happens in any lisp yet
08:21:10 <oren> I suppose it is a lisp dialect. But lisp dialects afaik are still generally defined with the program being a string of characters, rather than abstractly upon a data structure wihout reference to its representation
08:22:14 <oren> I might actaually write the implementation in scheme
08:22:25 <b_jonas> oren: the definition is _written_ that way, but at least starting from r5rs there's an eval functino that takes an abstract representation, and the rest of the syntax is designed to make that work
08:23:22 <b_jonas> that is, all the syntax the language has can be used inside a quote, and it will get you data that represents all the useful information of the program source, and you can eval it
08:23:49 <b_jonas> (there might be caveats about r7rs modules, I don't follow, but this is how r5rs works)
08:25:41 <oren> I'm actually modeling much of the features off of javascript.
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08:30:40 <oren> Hopefully I can also define a 'presentation form' that includes HTML markup that makes the code pretty
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11:01:52 <FireFly> b_jonas: clojure uses docstrings like that too, at least
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12:03:33 <ais523> wiki admins, what should we do about http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?title=BFQ&diff=43135&oldid=0 ?
12:04:22 <ais523> I'm not sure if it's original or has been copied from elsewhere, and a page about a single program, if it's warranted at all, probably shouldn't just be its source code
12:04:33 <ais523> and I have no idea how easy it is to search for fragments of BF code online
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12:08:44 <b_jonas> ais523: oh hi, I was trying to find you
12:09:27 <ais523> in general, you can assume that if I'm not on IRC, contacting me via any other Internet-based means (apart from /possibly/ trying to identify and contact other people who know me in real life) won't work either
12:09:47 <b_jonas> yeah I didn't try any of those
12:10:02 <b_jonas> just passively waiting if you're on irc and checking
12:10:30 <b_jonas> anyway, I was thinking about ayacc, and specifically C++ support for it, and now I think it's actually *much* more difficult than I thought
12:11:20 <b_jonas> there's multiple things you can trip on, some of them not trivial to fix, and some of them not even easy to even work around in such a way that you at least get compile errors before segfaults
12:12:14 <ais523> (that said, sending me an email will at least see I see the message next time I get online)
12:12:34 <b_jonas> if you're still interested about this stuff, I can try to tell the details, but for some of the details I have to do more reading up still because I realized I actually don't know some rules of C++ as well as I thought I did
12:12:43 <b_jonas> and some of those C++ stuff is even relevant here
12:12:54 <ais523> I am interested; I know I don't know the rules of C++ well enough to really get something like this working
12:13:58 <b_jonas> yes, that's the problem, I don't know them enough yet
12:14:19 <b_jonas> and the worst part is that the "rules of C++" aren't enough because there's lots of non-conformant compiers
12:14:38 <b_jonas> I'll try to learn more because I think it's relevant to me even without ayacc
12:14:50 <ais523> I haven't worked on ayacc for a while
12:15:02 <b_jonas> I noticed, the snapshot didn't change
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12:15:46 <ais523> knowing that there's a market at least gets me thinking about it again
12:15:59 <ais523> maybe I'll abandon the asm backend because it's clearly a ridiculous thing to do
12:16:02 <ais523> but it was fun to work on
12:16:51 <b_jonas> I didn't say I'm really a market. I'm not planning on using ayacc in production at all, though I might try it out just to convince me it works better than ordinary yacc or to find bugs or something.
12:17:42 <ais523> it's definitely better at finding bugs in yacc input than actual yacc is
12:17:47 <ais523> or, well, not finding them
12:18:21 <b_jonas> oh, there was something else I wanted to ask about, but later
12:18:31 <b_jonas> now I'll tell some of what I think about the C++ support
12:18:39 <b_jonas> but some of this may be inaccurate, I need more time to think
12:18:48 <b_jonas> and I definitely need more feedback, so I'm going to ask about ayacc
12:20:12 <ais523> !bfjoust preparation http://nethack4.org/esolangs/preparation.bfjoust
12:20:16 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_preparation: 51.2
12:20:22 <ais523> (it got deleted from the hill somehow, presumably me trying to get a different program to #1)
12:21:18 <ais523> I've been working on an improvement to margins, not finished yet though
12:21:54 <ais523> admittedly it does rather move away from the original idea of the program a little, given that it can actively win (i.e. doesn't require opponent suicide) on tape lengths longer than 12 now (although not all the way up to 30)
12:22:23 <mroman_> Is soemone reinventing Lisp with square brackets and commas instead of the smooth parentheses and no commas?
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12:28:08 <b_jonas> ais523: so anyway, you said that ayacc does no dynamic allocation, and allocates all the variables on the stack, which is a great start, but there's still some things that can trip you even if you do that, and some of them are hard to avoid and obvious to try to do
12:28:38 <b_jonas> ais523: the particular example I'm worried about the most, though not the only thing, is putting the types the user defines into a union
12:28:56 <ais523> b_jonas: right, so I'm hoping to be able to optimize out the union
12:29:05 <ais523> atm I don't but that's something I want to do in the future
12:29:14 <ais523> the problem is, ayacc is internally strongly typed, but the user program might not be
12:29:24 <b_jonas> the problem is that using a union is actually something you may want to do, and in fact if the yacc rules don't declare the types but access it like $1.foo then you can't even avoid it
12:29:44 <b_jonas> anyway, I'm not saying that using unions is always a bad thing, but you have to use them very carefully,
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12:30:13 <b_jonas> because they're one of those few things that will work correctly with C, but can do the wrong thing silently without compile time errors if C++ types are involved as (recursive) members of the union
12:30:40 <b_jonas> unions are kind of similar to other things you aren't doing, like putting the data in a malloc'ed buffer
12:31:17 <b_jonas> and the tricky part is that even if the yacc interface wouldn't require them, you may still want to use unions
12:31:34 <b_jonas> the problem I have is that I don't understand how unions work in C++
12:31:38 <ais523> actually ayacc currently has another problem that's related to this, which is a known bug
12:31:58 <b_jonas> I thought I did understand at least partly, but it turns out my understanding was totally wrong
12:32:00 <ais523> which is that if you don't assign to $$ it just ends up with uninitialized data
12:32:03 <b_jonas> so now I have to read up on them more
12:32:13 <ais523> flex's solution to this is to unconditionally initialize $$ with $1, which might be the wrong type or might not exist
12:32:27 <ais523> but implements the implicit "$$ = $1"
12:32:27 <b_jonas> yes, there are other things that can trip you up, I might mention them later
12:32:50 <ais523> (ayacc implements the implicit "$$ = $1" as sugar, it converts it to an explicit "$$ = $1" early in the process)
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12:33:45 <b_jonas> so let me ask some things. (1) does the yacc compatibility actually require you to expose a union to brace rules?
12:34:21 <b_jonas> code between braces in the yacc grammar
12:34:29 <ais523> it depends on how that code is written
12:34:46 <ais523> if you give no type information, it exposes YYSTYPE to the code
12:35:05 <ais523> however, yacc doesn't actually require YYSTYPE to be a union; it normally is, and it is if you tell yacc to define it itself using %union
12:35:11 <ais523> but if you declare it manually it could be something else
12:35:38 <ais523> if that code specifically mentions a union field, $<tag>1 (or $1 with <tag> in the matching declaration), ayacc /currently/ implements it as a union field but I want to change that
12:36:25 <b_jonas> but if you define it as a %union, and some symbols are declared strongly typed and some as weakly typed, then isn't ayacc output still required to access the members of the union explicitly?
12:37:07 <b_jonas> (2) do you have specific plans or requirements on what compilers you're planning to support or not support for compiling the output of ayacc, especially with regards to pre-C++11 compilers in C++ mode?
12:37:12 <ais523> that said, I think the correct solution to this is to tell people it's a bad idea in the documentation
12:37:24 <ais523> I'm hoping for the output code to be as portable as possible
12:37:43 <ais523> we could potentially go the C-INTERCAL route where you specify the standards version when specifying the language
12:38:56 <ais523> or we could try to write a polyglot of every standards version
12:40:56 <b_jonas> The version of what language? C/C++ or yacc?
12:42:51 <b_jonas> I think that will probably not be necessary, or possibly necessary only for some very old C++ compilers, but I'm not sure, I'll still have to learn the union rules and figure out all this stuff.
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12:43:09 <ais523> b_jonas: well, I first learned pre-standard C++
12:43:20 <b_jonas> Sure, everyone of our age did.
12:43:26 <ais523> this still shows in some cases, e.g. I have a tendency to write my own exception classes
12:45:17 <b_jonas> Do you have any plans about how the non-C++ C output will handle destructors of symbol data?
12:46:52 <ais523> b_jonas: let them go out of scope on the stack, tell people not to put dynamically allocated stuff there
12:46:59 <ais523> or, if they do, be willing to leak it
12:47:10 <ais523> most of the yacc applications I can think of offhand would be fine like that
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12:47:24 <b_jonas> ais523: but... no I don't think so
12:47:35 <ais523> (apparently the one of the D compilers got a huge speed increase by effectively using a user-space sbrk rather than malloc as its allocator, and never freeing anything)
12:48:08 <b_jonas> sure, that's called garbage collection, many people believe it can be faster than freeing anything explicitly
12:48:17 <b_jonas> it might or might not work depending on what you do and how you do it
12:48:41 <ais523> b_jonas: no, garbage collection normally at least attempts to free things when memory is exhausted
12:49:15 <b_jonas> what happens if the grammar fails to match? will you leak resources in that case, or will you correctly exit all the functions?
12:50:01 <ais523> b_jonas: oh, the leak can /only/ happen on match failure
12:50:02 <b_jonas> if you can correctly unwind everything when the grammar doesn't match, then it's probably not hard to correctly unwind in any reasonable case, because you just need to inject a token that causes the grammar to not match,
12:50:21 <ais523> if the grammar does match then all the objects get unwound by the grammar rules themselves
12:50:22 <b_jonas> (unless of course the grammar is already in a state that it'll definitely match rsn)
12:50:47 <b_jonas> what happens now if the grammar fails?
12:50:50 <ais523> this implies that you can get working unwinding by adding an unwind alternative to every single rule
12:51:05 <ais523> right now, if the grammar fails I throw an exception (or longjmp in C) and just cut out the broken bit of the stack like that
12:51:09 <b_jonas> but that would complicate the generated code immensely?
12:51:16 <ais523> yes, and slow it down too
12:51:21 <ais523> this is why exceptions are so useful in this case
12:52:09 <b_jonas> do you ever need to _copy_ a symbol data value, as opposed to move it, even if it's sometimes currently implemented as copying because that's easy in C?
12:52:32 <ais523> yacc actually has linear typing
12:52:34 <b_jonas> that at least simplifies things
12:52:45 <b_jonas> it wouldn't be a big problem even if you had to copy them, but it makes things simpler
12:52:53 <ais523> which is why match failures confuse things because you have all these linear values and no way to delete them
12:53:05 <ais523> b_jonas: one thing I do need to do, though, is return them from functions and pass them to other functions
12:53:23 <b_jonas> in what ways can the moving happen, other than returning a single data value from a function as the return value?
12:53:24 <ais523> that can be done entirely with moves, and I'm hoping it can be done with RVO too but I'm not sure how
12:53:35 <ais523> sometimes I need to return two values from the same function
12:53:46 <b_jonas> returning a value from a function is actualyl the _easiest_ case
12:53:48 <ais523> although in this case, one of them is always a POD integer, so we can return it via pointer/reference if necessary
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12:53:57 <b_jonas> the best case, the one I'm hoping for
12:54:11 <b_jonas> returning two values is still fine
12:54:17 <ais523> b_jonas: basically what we do is, we return the value from a function, then we pass it through a chain of function arguments until it's consumed
12:54:45 <b_jonas> as long as it's like actually a product you're returning, not a discriminated union where the symbol data value is sometimes present and sometimes not
12:55:12 <b_jonas> what do you mean by "chain of function arguments"?
12:55:28 <b_jonas> do you mean you pass a pointer to the value to functions you call?
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12:56:21 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean I pass it to one function as an argument, that function passes it to another function, and so on
12:56:38 <ais523> b_jonas: oh yes, I am returning discriminated unions by hand :-(
12:56:51 <ais523> that could be a little awkward
12:56:56 <b_jonas> Oh by the way, is there a testsuite that exercises most of ayacc's functions?
12:57:11 <ais523> not really, I've mostly just been using random .y files plus a few manually written ones
12:57:15 <ais523> it needs a proper testsuite really
12:57:39 <b_jonas> ais523: none of that them is _really_ a problem, I'm confident averything like that can be solved, I'd just like to know what you're doing before I can even think about this.
12:57:52 <ais523> I'm going offline for about 10 minutes, I'll be back soon
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13:02:17 <mroman_> Is ayacc a product of ais523?
13:06:32 <b_jonas> mroman_: http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl
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13:07:30 <ais523> have you looked at ayacc's C output?
13:08:19 <b_jonas> I'm going to look at it, though I'm a bit worried it can depend so much on the input that I might miss some cases that only come up if I feed it Bad Practice input
13:08:23 <ais523> that should give you a good idea of how it works
13:08:25 <b_jonas> like union and untyped stuff
13:08:32 <b_jonas> I will definitely have to look at it, yes
13:08:33 <ais523> especially if you compare it to the -v output
13:08:42 <ais523> atm it doesn't do many Good Practice-dependent optimizations
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13:26:35 <ais523> wanted to get it working before doing more optimizations
13:26:45 <ais523> (there are quite a lot already but they're to the state machine rather than the actual code)
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13:30:43 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm planning to go home soon, is there anything more you want to ask before I go?
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13:37:30 <b_jonas> probably nothing right now
13:45:47 <ais523> hmm, HTTP connections aren't working for me right now (they start to work but stall)
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13:49:34 <b_jonas> (well, actually there's like a thousand different problems that can cause that)
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16:26:21 <J_Arcane> I think my initial interest in Factor is starting to wear off.
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16:34:29 <MDude> Currently I'm trying to learn Pure Data.
16:37:47 <J_Arcane> I cannot for the life of me even manage to debug the prime? function in the tutorial I'm doing.
16:38:29 <J_Arcane> I'd probably be better off learning Erlang.
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16:58:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43142 * Paul2520 * (+2709) created page
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16:59:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Paul2520]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43143 * Paul2520 * (+55) Created page with "Created the [[esoteric programming language]] [[ABCs]]."
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17:14:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ABCs]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43144&oldid=43142 * Paul2520 * (+41) added "hello world" example
17:16:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43145&oldid=40231 * 73.184.106.177 * (+0)
17:17:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43146&oldid=43071 * Paul2520 * (+11) /* A */ added [[ABCs]]
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18:11:20 <oren> you know what's bullshit? 08 and 09 are not valid C integers
18:13:42 <oren> actually the whole octal thing is pretty stupid
18:15:11 <oren> why did they have octal, of all bases? Base 60 might at least be useful
18:16:36 <oren> like it would be nice to be able to write a value like 300 seconds as 5:00
18:18:09 <oren> or a value of 18 inches as 1'6
18:26:53 <Sgeo_> Windows Calculator thinks octal might be useful
18:28:54 <oren> #define b60(i) ((i)%100+(i)/100%100*60+(i)/10000%100*3600+(i)/1000000%100*216000+(i)/100000000%100*12960000)
18:29:30 <pikhq> Awesome PDP legacy stuff.
18:30:52 <oren> this requires 500 for five minutes, and 240000 for one day. Hmmm
18:35:03 <oren> #define bTM(i) ((i)%100+(i)/100%100*60+(i)/10000%100*3600+(i)/1000000%100*86400+(i)/100000000%100*18144000)
18:35:06 <pikhq> Obviously things should use base 2 exclusively.
18:35:34 <oren> That would be nice, but our systems mostly use mixed bases
18:36:01 <pikhq> Especially base64 should be replaced with base2. :P
18:36:27 <oren> I prefer base 255
18:36:55 <pikhq> That's not 7 bit clean.
18:36:55 <oren> (I once wrote half of a C-string based bignum thing using that base)
18:38:00 <b_jonas> I agree that base of a power of 2 are easier
18:38:28 <b_jonas> but sure, there's zzo38 who'll write negafibonacci base arithmetic when I just mention how strange it would be
18:38:48 <b_jonas> and I've written strange base arithmetic stuff just to see how easy it is
18:39:29 <oren> 251 is a prime base tat fits into a byte
18:39:51 <oren> 252 has a lot of factors
18:40:09 <pikhq> Shoving base 2 in ASCII is just hilarious.
18:40:38 <b_jonas> including GF(128) arithmetic: http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=863110
18:44:57 <oren> pikhq: and yet GNU decided to add a 0b01010001 notation, for people who apparently can't read 0x51
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18:55:59 <pikhq> oren: That's also going into C++.
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19:16:44 <b_jonas> oren: yeah, I never understood why that would be useful
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19:26:21 <int-e> it's for people who can count to 24 quickly (is 0b1000000000000000000000000 equal to 1<<23 or 1<<24?)
19:28:09 <int-e> shachaf: that makes me cringe inside
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19:29:00 <int-e> and now we're approaching one of those efficient prefix-free encoding of naturals
19:30:10 <int-e> hmm, where'd the -free come from...
19:33:39 <int-e> (What I have in mind is something like this: To encode a positive natural number, write it in binary and drop the initial 1 digit to obtain a list of digits; the empty list is encoded as 0; any other list is encoded as 1, followed by the encoding of the length of the list, followed by the list itself.)
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19:50:12 <tromp__> shld use the encoding of one less than the length...
19:50:33 <tromp__> also see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levenstein_coding
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21:41:56 <lambdabot> CYUL 042100Z 14008KT 100V170 30SM BKN240 24/07 A3011 RMK CI6 SLP195 DENSITY ALT 900FT
21:42:08 <lambdabot> KOAK 042053Z 27011KT 10SM FEW012 21/10 A2982 RMK AO2 SLP098 T02060100 58006
21:42:26 <boily> damn. only 24/07 and I'm sweating like a sweaty pig who sweats profusely.
21:42:36 <boily> (maybe the bike ride is a contributing factor.)
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00:20:07 <oren> `1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./~!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?
00:20:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/1234567890-=qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./~!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>?: No such file or directory
00:21:09 <oren> see. the above has... problems
00:21:40 <oren> Firstly, 0 should be to the left of the other numbers
00:23:11 <oren> Secondly, the letters on homerow are not the most common letters
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00:24:18 <oren> thirdly, ? should be the default and / should be shifted. ? is used a lot more than / in writing
00:24:49 <oren> and similarly, the [] should be where () are and vice versa
00:29:37 <oerjan> dvorak is thataway hth
00:32:20 <boily> /1234567890-=qwertyuiop^çàasdfghjkl;èzxcvbnm,.é\!@#$%?&*()_+QWERTYUIOP¨ÇÀASDFGHJKL:ÈZXCVBNM'"É is the Most Bestest Layout :D
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00:34:41 <boily> it's Canadien Multilingue Standard.
00:35:26 <boily> (technically there should be a dedicated ùÙ key, and àÀ should be to the left of the return key...)
00:36:18 <oerjan> |1234567890+\qwertyuiopå¨asdfghjkløæ'<zxcvbnm,.-§!"#¤%&/()=?`QWERTYUIOPÅ^ASDFGHJKLØÆ*>ZXCVBNM;:_ where i had to press space after a few dead keys hth
00:37:10 <boily> only ^¨ is dead here. other dead keys are on AltGr and ISO level 5.
00:38:18 <boily> |±@£¢¤¬{}[]½¬§¶`~}°{«»µ<>´
00:39:12 <oerjan> yeah plenty more with AltGr
00:39:18 <pikhq> I have a distinct lack of dead keys here.
00:40:15 <pikhq> 1234567890qwertyuiop[]\asdfghjkl;'zxcvbnm,./!@#$%^&*()_+QWERTYUIOP{}|ASDFGHJKL:"ZXCVBNM<>? is truth
00:40:21 <boily> ¹²³¼½¾¸łœ¶ŧ←↓→øþ~æßðŋæßðŋħijĸŀ´zx¢“”ʼnµ―·¡£¤⅜⅝⅞™¿˛ΩŁŒ®Ŧ¥↑ıØÞ°¯˘Æ§ÐªŊĦIJĿ˝ˇZX©‘’♪º×÷˙
00:40:57 <HackEgo> [U+014A LATIN CAPITAL LETTER ENG] [U+0126 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER H WITH STROKE] [U+0132 LATIN CAPITAL LIGATURE IJ] [U+013F LATIN CAPITAL LETTER L WITH MIDDLE DOT]
00:42:07 <HackEgo> [U+0138 LATIN SMALL LETTER KRA]
00:42:24 <oerjan> `unicode LATIN CAPITAL LETTER KRA
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00:43:01 <boily> you're expecting Unicode to be logical. this is a bad habit you should depart from.
00:43:43 <boily> do you capital letter kra?
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04:21:33 <oerjan> and his friend arthur ditto
04:22:37 <HackEgo> twh/twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
04:22:52 <HackEgo> friendship/friendship wisdom
04:23:03 <HackEgo> heck/Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
04:23:23 <HackEgo> Functors are just morphisms in the category of small categories
04:24:01 <shachaf> What about functors between non-small categories?
04:25:07 <shachaf> I was going to add "(small)" at the beginning, but apparently no one calls them small functors.
04:25:18 <HackEgo> elliott/elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
04:25:30 <HackEgo> lystrosaur/The lystrosaurs were an ancient genus of evil reptiles who successfully took over the world in the early Triassic.
04:26:41 <oerjan> omg you're right he must have invented a time machine
04:27:32 <oerjan> shachaf: synchronicity hth
04:28:17 <HackEgo> logs/I think you might mean !logs
04:28:41 <HackEgo> fukyobrainz/fukyobrainz is yet another brainfuck derivative however with identical instructions.
04:28:58 <HackEgo> hagb4rd/hagb4rd is one spacey fellow. Spaaaaaaaaaaaaaaace.
04:29:03 <HackEgo> aah/aah ambiguous acronym here
04:29:34 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/aah //' wisdom/aah
04:30:54 <shachaf> `` mkdir le; ln -s ../bin/learn le/rn
04:30:56 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `le': File exists
04:31:08 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 5 04:32 le
04:32:01 <oerjan> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:32:02 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le/rn: line 3: wisdom/le/rn: No such file or directory \ Learned 'le/rn': le/rn may or may not work
04:32:34 <shachaf> oerjan: that was remarkably accurate hth
04:32:47 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn may and may not work
04:32:48 <HackEgo> /hackenv/le/rn: line 3: wisdom/le/rn: No such file or directory \ Learned 'le/rn': le/rn may and may not work
04:32:55 <oerjan> `` rm le/rn; ls -s ../bin/slashlearn le/rn
04:32:57 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access ../bin/slashlearn: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access le/rn: No such file or directory
04:33:19 <shachaf> ok, i'll admit i'm confused
04:33:37 <oerjan> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:33:38 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/le/rn: No such file or directory
04:34:18 <shachaf> `` ln -s ../bin/slashlearn le/rn
04:34:24 <oerjan> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:34:43 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn may and may not work
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04:35:08 <shachaf> ok, what was the difference? twh
04:35:43 <shachaf> i didn't link it to slashlearn
04:36:12 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn may or may not work
04:37:13 <shachaf> `le/rn le/rn seems to be working rn but it didn't earlier
04:37:31 <oerjan> brains, brittle briny bricks
04:38:07 <HackEgo> xargs/xargs is for piping snowmen.
04:38:17 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯/¯\(°_o)/¯ `? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:40:26 <shachaf> Is that even accessible with ?
04:40:58 <zzo38> I also put it in so that you can make ``` at front instead of `` if you want it to fix the locale settings
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04:41:45 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; bash -c "$1"
04:41:48 <oerjan> shachaf: well space normally is pretty inaccessible, so it all fits.
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04:45:11 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
04:45:17 <HackEgo> coonspirator/A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
04:46:32 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
04:47:25 <shachaf> `? natural transformations
04:47:26 <HackEgo> Natural transformations are just morphisms in the category of functors
04:48:03 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/the category of functors/a functor category/' wisdom/natural\ transformation
04:48:16 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/natural transformation
04:49:06 <oerjan> um what was wrong with the original
04:49:38 <shachaf> just that there's no one category of functors, there's one for every pair of categories
04:50:06 <shachaf> and also saying "X is just a morphism in the category Y" is silly because you define the category Y by saying what X is
04:50:13 <shachaf> and also it didn't seem very wise
04:50:18 <shachaf> but i won't object if you put it back
04:50:29 <shachaf> maybe deleting others' wisdom is rude
04:51:06 <oerjan> well it was supposed to be silly, although "no one category of functors" is a point
04:51:37 <shachaf> well that silliness already exists elsewhere in the wisdom database
04:51:40 <oerjan> you are the categorical expert
04:52:37 <shachaf> I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical / From Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical
04:53:44 <oerjan> i'm sorry but you're the very model of an modern ct expert hth
04:54:06 <shachaf> copumpkin is more of a ct expert
04:54:10 <shachaf> and look where that got him hth
04:54:24 <oerjan> isn't he pretty close to you
04:54:50 <oerjan> like in the same city or so
04:55:32 <shachaf> well he's moving a bit closer
04:56:21 <shachaf> that's what the ct expert thing is about, see
04:57:04 <HackEgo> elliot/No one was ever called Elliot.
04:57:33 <shachaf> `learn Eliot invented cats.
04:57:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot invented cats.
04:57:42 <oerjan> `slashlearn natural transformation/A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
04:57:45 <HackEgo> Learned «natural transformation»
04:58:38 <shachaf> well, we got rid of the word "just"
04:59:28 <shachaf> `learn Eliot inveted cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
04:59:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot inveted cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
04:59:33 <shachaf> `learn Eliot invented cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
04:59:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot invented cats, then Taneb stole his invention.
05:00:16 <oerjan> `learn Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
05:00:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliot': Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
05:00:53 <zzo38> Isn't a category of functors from X to Y when you do Y to the power of X?
05:01:44 <shachaf> What's the definition of power?
05:02:23 <shachaf> What's the definition of the exponent?
05:03:14 <shachaf> Hmm, I guess you can have a monoidal category and talk about the adjoint to (a (x))
05:04:09 <shachaf> Apparently "copower" means "tensor".
05:04:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'copower': Copower rrupts.
05:04:51 <HackEgo> field/There are two kinds of fields. Those where you can divide (except by zero), and those where you can conquer.
05:04:51 <HackEgo> lettuce/Lettuce is a vegetable with two dressings, join and meet.
05:04:51 <HackEgo> heck/Heck is where you end up if you don't believe in Gosh.
05:04:52 <HackEgo> inverness/Inverness is a city in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative.
05:04:53 <HackEgo> morphism/A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
05:05:05 <zzo38> I think you can have addition, multiplication, exponents of categories, and it agrees with the natural numbers (the finite discrete categories being the natural numbers here), such as if you do the category X to the power of 2 it is same as to do X times X
05:07:00 <HackEgo> Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
05:07:28 <shachaf> `le/rn lord/The way of the Lord is not just.
05:07:58 <zzo38> It is not just what?
05:10:36 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
05:10:39 <HackEgo> partial order/A partial order is just a small thin skeletal category.
05:10:45 <shachaf> I might be talking too much.
05:12:23 <zzo38> `le/rn pipe/This is not a pipe.
05:13:38 <shachaf> `le/rn nah/no ambiguity here
05:14:10 <oerjan> `learn Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
05:14:12 <HackEgo> Learned 'famicom': Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
05:17:17 * oerjan does an overoptimistic webcomic check
05:17:17 <zzo38> `? matrix accounting
05:17:18 <HackEgo> matrix accounting? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:17:29 <HackEgo> HackEgo, also known as HackBot, is a bot that runs arbitrary commands on Unix. See `help for info on using it. You should totally try to hax0r it! Make sure you imagine it's running as root with no sandboxing.
05:19:30 <oerjan> `slashlearn forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
05:20:31 <shachaf> oerjan: i was just thinking of what sort of language would fit in with Go and Forth
05:20:49 <shachaf> then i decided there was none so i gave up hth
05:21:21 <shachaf> also i'm writing Go code these days
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05:25:33 <zzo38> Now you have to fix it
05:26:09 <Jafet> Isn't go used in fungot?
05:26:09 <fungot> Jafet: we signed on the document the events of the financial, project director of the us.
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05:26:24 <oerjan> Jafet: not that i know of
05:26:27 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
05:26:37 <shachaf> oerjan: zzo38 didn't say that you can, only that you have to hth
05:26:58 <zzo38> shachaf: That is correct.
05:27:04 <Jafet> Maybe it's fun that is used in fungot.
05:27:04 <fungot> Jafet: it will you have the power: california department of water and power.
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05:27:14 <oerjan> shachaf: ah. well i commend zzo38 on knowing the difference hth
05:28:12 <shachaf> I have a book that says: "People are trustworthy if they try to do what they say they will do. People are creditworthy if they can do what they say they will do."
05:29:29 <shachaf> oerjan: you still have to fix HackEgo
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05:31:34 <Jafet> According to fungot, you have the power.
05:31:35 <fungot> Jafet: has a wonderful and you guys i recommend the best, if you see on the map of the 10 trading days of the equity and bond markets don't offer refuge.
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05:32:14 <HackEgo> random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet/random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet Uhm... was the binary roujobroken?
05:32:18 <oerjan> Jafet: i don't trust that fungot statement, i've hear california has a drought
05:32:19 <fungot> oerjan: i wan to make. for the enron price target the key the off peak. 25301
05:33:10 <shachaf> oerjan: thanks for fixing it tdh
05:33:10 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/random-word-that-isnt-in-the-wisdom-yet
05:34:24 <oerjan> Jafet: fungot isn't on a very trustworthy style at the moment hth
05:34:24 <fungot> oerjan: to the time of the help of the: ( iii) the number of the my cdnow.
05:34:31 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron* europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
05:34:38 <zzo38> Are you going to add all of the other stuff too?
05:34:41 <shachaf> fungot has an enron style?
05:34:41 <fungot> shachaf: first and foremost you
05:35:36 <fungot> Selected style: alice (Books by Lewis Carroll)
05:36:11 <fungot> oerjan: five winsome girls, from twenty to sixteen: each young man that calls, i say!
05:36:16 <shachaf> i used to confuse enron with http://www.eltron.co.il/
05:37:02 <shachaf> when people talked about enron i thought they were talking about a company that made parking gates and other sorts of automatic doors
05:37:17 <oerjan> shachaf: that's some hideously bad keming tdnh
05:37:38 <shachaf> this was back when people were talking about enron
05:37:58 <shachaf> so i imagine my english wasn't too good
05:38:05 <shachaf> and i was young and foolish
05:38:07 <oerjan> does lt an n sound the same in hebrew tdnh
05:39:56 <zzo38> Are you going to add a wisdom file for "mahjong"?
05:40:27 <shachaf> I'm probably not. Are you?
05:41:22 <zzo38> I don't know what to write
05:41:34 <zzo38> Therefore, I didn't write.
05:43:06 <oerjan> `learn RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
05:43:08 <HackEgo> Learned 'rtf': RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
05:43:17 <shachaf> oerjan: these kinds of gates: http://www.eltron.co.il/img/0389/340.jpg
05:43:26 <oerjan> oh wait you said RDF, never mind.
05:43:52 <zzo38> That's OK; now you have the one of RTF too.
05:44:01 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/: Permission denied
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05:53:49 <Jafet> I had a double take at this email title: "Your help is desperately needed for Nigerian refugees"
05:54:03 <zzo38> It describe on http://esolangs.org/wiki/Graph what a RDF graph is, therefore you can make up something funny of it and make up a funny guess what the letters "RDF" is stand for, such as recursive acronym or whatever else it is.
05:54:05 <Jafet> (it was an email newsletter from the UNHCR)
05:56:16 <oerjan> Jafet: might wonder how many spam filters it got caught in
05:56:51 <zzo38> Can you define "planar graph" without geometry?
05:57:02 <Jafet> Sure, use kuratowski's theorem.
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06:26:45 <HackEgo> Cats are cool, but should be illegal.
06:35:17 <zzo38> Why it should be illegal?
06:38:54 <shachaf> I don't think cats should be illegal.
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07:22:02 <fungot> mroman_: " only but frogs," said he, " for i never was so happy before," though why these two children who had never been so nearly choked in all her life.
07:23:35 <mroman_> zzo38: I'm guessing Rwandan Defence Forces
07:31:52 <mroman_> Why exactly did C89 disallow mixed declarations?
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08:31:23 <olsner> I would guess that it's so that stupid compilers can generate the function prologue and lay out the stack before generating any function code
08:32:30 <int-e> Oh that. Yeah, same guess here.
08:33:55 <olsner> blocks can declare variables though, so I'm not sure it's limited enough to actually help such a compiler
08:34:25 <mroman_> well a compiler could move declarations to the top anyway
08:35:02 <mroman_> ideally you'd scan the function body for declarations
08:35:14 <olsner> you mean it would parse the whole function first? do you have enough RAM to do that?
08:35:46 <mroman_> I would have in fact just parsed the whole file into an AST :)
08:35:53 <int-e> mroman_: does the term "single pass compiler" mean anything? remember that computers at the time had preciously little memory.
08:36:04 <mroman_> Yeah I know single pass compilers.
08:36:36 <mroman_> they'll produce rather inefficient code thoguh
08:37:38 <int-e> which is why real programmers wrote their code in assembly language
08:38:27 <zzo38> I still do use assembly language if writing the program for Famicom
08:38:37 <HackEgo> Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
08:38:43 <int-e> compiled languages were (and to a great extent still are) a trade-off between time and space consumption of the executed code on the one hand, and managability and maintainability of the source code on the other.
08:39:12 <shachaf> zzo38: Wouldn't you use e.g. Japanese for writing the programme for Famicom?
08:39:41 <zzo38> The message on HackEgo is just a joke; Famicom is a computer machine
08:40:07 <int-e> oh I should add portability to that list
08:40:08 <mroman_> I have written an ugly one pass compiler once
08:40:26 <zzo38> The other purpose of compiled languages such as C and so on is to make it (at least partially) portable to compile on other computer too
08:40:32 <int-e> mroman_: was it for brainfuck?
08:41:04 <zzo38> (That's one reason I use C; it can then compile for other computer too)
08:41:05 <shachaf> FAMICOM IST DAS KOMPUTERMASCHINE?
08:41:55 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/SZEZcEei
08:41:56 <olsner> the real german word is COMPUTER
08:42:19 <shachaf> That's the real English word too.
08:42:24 <mroman_> just look at all those push pop instructions it generated :D
08:42:28 <olsner> no, the english word is computer, not COMPUTER
08:43:12 <shachaf> English is case-insensitive.
08:44:05 <mroman_> I didn't even generate move instructions :) push r0, pop r1 was generated if a value was needed in another register :D
08:45:11 <int-e> shachaf: I guess you could call it a Rechenmaschine
08:45:28 <mroman_> a * b was compiled as pop r1, pop r0, mul r0, r0, r1; push r0;
08:45:33 <int-e> I've seen the CPU called a "Rechenwerk".
08:45:42 <int-e> mroman_: looks legit
08:46:24 <zzo38> MagicKit assembler uses two passes; I made an extension which allows an optional third pass (although the third pass isn't reading the input file, but is rather executing code in an area that has been set aside for this purpose)
08:46:32 <int-e> (I suppose this happens when you have a stack machine as intermediate representation and don't bother to write a register allocator, for example because that's kind of hard.)
08:47:24 <mroman_> That way you can very easily compile it in a single pass
08:47:42 <zzo38> mroman_: You could do optimizations when writing them out though? (Such as keeping track of pattern to match)
08:48:04 <zzo38> (These still aren't best kind of optimizations, but at least it would be something.)
08:48:13 <mroman_> There are some very easy optimizations that could be done
08:48:22 <mroman_> like replacing push r0; pop r0; with nothing
08:48:30 <mroman_> and push r0; pop r1; with mov r1, r0
08:48:41 <shachaf> German seems like it would be so much easier to learn than Finnish.
08:49:26 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/qXSBIAiW <- but looking at the source code I don't want to have anything to do with that compiler anymore :D
08:50:49 <mroman_> I just directly emit code when ever a bison rule is matched :)
08:51:42 <mroman_> "| KEYWORD_IPROCEDURE IDENT { printf(".label _%s; iproc\n", $2); } KEYWORD_IS statements KEYWORD_END {"
08:53:42 <zzo38> You might be able to use a second parser which does optimization
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08:54:27 * int-e wonders whether zzo38 has anything to do with attribute grammars
08:55:24 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/ZbkyphzQ <- that's the language it compiles
08:55:57 <mroman_> obviously all locals need to be declared before the function body :)
08:57:45 <mroman_> with syntax highlight the language doesn't even look too bad
08:58:39 <mroman_> http://fmnssun.ibone.ch/rhailargue/string.rl.html
09:00:26 <mroman_> (Obviously there are only two data types: register and byte.)
09:00:54 <mroman_> (althought technically everything is untyped and just assumed to fit into a register)
09:01:25 <mroman_> (but for read/write accesses you can specify @BYTE or @REG prefixes)
09:02:38 <mroman_> zzo38: the project is dead ;)
09:03:29 <mroman_> Nobody had interest in the project.
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09:07:03 <mroman_> That's what happens when yo do theses (is that the plural of thesis) without an industry partner but with the university as your partner
09:07:24 <mroman_> There's no real interest behind projects without partners from the outside world :D
09:08:12 <mroman_> BF commands are replaced with digits 0-9
09:08:24 <mroman_> but the Quine he shows doesn't even contain any digits but just brainfuck instructions?
09:10:23 <mroman_> and run as a brainfuck program it seems to output only non printable characters
09:14:59 <mroman_> maybe I'm reading something wrong :(
09:21:53 <fizzie> I think the numbers refer to raw byte values.
09:22:24 <fizzie> Because the output of the program starts "03 03 01 03 03 03 03 03 03 03 01 ..." and that matches the start of the quine code.
09:27:47 <mroman_> He uploaded a file x-chromosomes that isn't used anywhere o_O
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09:31:50 <mroman_> pollen count is so high right now it affects people without pollen allergies as well.
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10:50:23 <mroman_> also... summer sucks as a heliophobic.
10:51:11 <fizzie> At least you're not above the arctic circle. (I guess?)
10:51:48 <boily> mrhelloman_. one form of therapy is exposing you to multiple suns at the same time to help you with you phobia hth
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11:14:15 <mroman_> JPA Strings default to VARCHAR(255)
11:14:53 <mroman_> (Hint: When using JPA always check the schema it generates, because otherwise you will have Bugs you didn't think of
11:15:08 <mroman_> when suddenly your app crashes when storing Text longer than 255 characters)
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11:57:05 <mroman_> By how much can you slow down a video without a viewer noticing?
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12:01:09 <mroman_> Instead of stopping hard you slow down the video ever so slightly as to "gather time" for the buffer to refill
12:03:15 <int-e> There probably isn't a general answer to this. For example, consider a music video on one hand and a slow pan over a city on the other.
12:14:24 <mroman_> You could annotate sequences that can be slown down.
12:14:56 <mroman_> or you could annotate where it is possible to introduce some mini-breaks
12:15:08 <mroman_> like when a movie shows a blank screen for a scene switch
12:15:17 <mroman_> that blank screen can easily be extended for a few milliseconds I guess.
12:17:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: I don't think it's worth to slow down the video to catch up with buffering
12:17:45 <b_jonas> mroman_: if the download is too slow, then that won't help much in the long term
12:17:50 <b_jonas> you'll eventually have to halt
12:17:58 <b_jonas> so this can be possible but I don't think it's practical
12:18:05 <mroman_> well there are cases where you pre-buffer for about a minute
12:18:15 <mroman_> and mid-movie you need to stop and pre-buffer for another minute
12:18:28 <mroman_> dynamically slowing the video down a bit could prevent that from happening
12:19:07 <b_jonas> those kinds of things are because the download stops or the speed slows down very much, because some point of the network (possibly an endpoint) gets slow
12:20:19 <mroman_> if buffering speed is just about playing speed and then suddenly starts to slow down
12:20:29 <mroman_> you have to halt eventually if you keep playing at the same speed
12:20:37 <b_jonas> I don't think that's common
12:21:30 <mroman_> Of course, you can always just increase download speed :D
12:21:45 <mroman_> but it sounded like something at least interesting to experiment with.
12:22:15 <mroman_> why solve the traffic problem if you can just build wider roads
12:22:54 <mroman_> although that is a different topic.
12:23:19 <mroman_> well.. except for transmitting diseases busses are probably not that *cool*
12:23:35 <mroman_> you're better of travelling in your own car when it comes to that.
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12:37:19 <mroman_> png 25 (12.89%) 3097 (28.44%) 123
12:37:38 <mroman_> when you have a PNG coder in your project and most lines of code are in PNG.
12:38:12 <mroman_> this stat tool should do some basic binary file detection
12:38:55 <mroman_> hm. at least there are 1.4k lines of assembly code
12:47:12 <mroman_> what makes more sense in terms of priorities
12:47:41 <mroman_> or infix > prefix > postfix?
12:48:26 <mroman_> where Prefix+ is increment, postfix ! is faculty and infix + is addition
12:50:26 <mroman_> and ! infix would actually be array access
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12:52:57 <mroman_> !a!!b could be almost anything. (!a)!(!b) if prefix > infix
12:55:46 <mroman_> although if postfix > infix as well
13:01:54 <mroman_> I thought Parsec wouldn't like any of those :(
13:07:49 <mroman_> how do I tell parsec to parse that as (!a)!?
13:13:32 <mroman_> now it loops forever on just "a"
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13:30:41 <mroman_> ok. I have my system now :D
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13:43:36 <mroman_> .!,~a!2! would be the faculty of the bitwise negated second digit of the length of a
13:48:04 <mroman_> *Main> runParserWithString parseExpression ".!,~a!b!"
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13:56:08 <mroman_> which means Factorial and/or Faculty :)
13:59:23 <mroman_> 1,1,3,12,20,120,840,6720,60480,151200
14:01:40 <lambdabot> n!/6.[1,4,20,120,840,6720,60480,604800,6652800,79833600,1037836800,145297152...
14:04:59 <mroman_> Why don't governments just use a tax system like
14:05:08 <mroman_> They state how much money they need for a given period
14:06:08 <mroman_> all citizens together earn 6000 dogecoins a year
14:06:48 <mroman_> someone who earns 60 dogecoins a year therefore pays 0.01% of what the government wants
14:07:55 <fizzie> Possibly because taking 10 dogecoins out of the income of someone earning 60 dogecoins is felt to have a different proportional effect than taking 1000 from soneone earning 6000.
14:08:03 <mroman_> in theory you could have to pay more than what you earnt
14:08:50 <fizzie> (Also I think your 0.01% was off by two orders of magnitude.)
14:09:28 <fizzie> 60/6000 is a fraction of 0.01. 0.01% is a fraction of 0.0001
14:09:55 <mroman_> That's why I'm only good in math subjects that don't involve too much numbers.
14:10:41 <mroman_> let's assume there's one really rich person
14:10:46 <fizzie> Anyhow, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_tax
14:11:28 <fizzie> It's just 1000/6000 (as in, 1/6th) out of everyone's income.
14:12:22 <fizzie> And I think people generally argue that taking 1/6'th out of the income of someone at the poverty line is different from taking 1/6'th out of someone earning lots of money, even though it's the same fraction.
14:12:42 <fizzie> But I'm sure you can find people saying that progressive taxation is bad too.
14:12:54 <mroman_> depends on how progressive
14:13:10 <mroman_> You can do stupid things like uhm
14:13:17 <mroman_> People earning less than 50000 pay 5%
14:13:24 <mroman_> people earning less than 70000 pay 8%
14:13:57 <mroman_> although 5% isn't realistic of course :)
14:16:14 <fizzie> That's why it's generally "X % for income from 0 to A; Y % for income from A to B; .." and so on. Although I've heard of the "you lose money by earning too much" situations.
14:17:28 <mroman_> crap this really is 1/6 out of everybody
14:17:47 <fizzie> That's because you can take the /6000 out of the parens and put it under the 1000.
14:18:07 <fizzie> (x/6000)*1000 = x*(1000/6000).
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14:18:37 <mroman_> fizzie: but instead of making "hard borders" you could have something more gradual perhaps?
14:19:06 <mroman_> meaning 40000 pay 4%, 70000 pay 7%
14:19:31 <mroman_> but of course, you'd have to consult how many people earn how much first
14:19:45 <mroman_> because at the end of the day if the tax system can't cover the governments spending it's a bad tax system anyway
14:22:00 <mroman_> are there countries with value-added-taxes only?
14:22:03 <mroman_> that would be interesting.
14:22:49 <fizzie> I wonder if there are any places that have differentiable function instead of tax brackets. I've only been exposed to the UK and Finnish systems, both of which have brackets. (Although the Finnish system never really talks about the brackets -- they're used to compute the overall marginal rate, but other than that it's just the single percentage you usually see.)
14:23:30 <fizzie> Both also have a non-empty bottom bracket with a 0% tax rate (aka tax-free income allowance).
14:24:54 <fizzie> They're even vaguely the same magnitude. (£10600 vs. 16500€ ~> £12000)
14:26:04 <mroman_> income tax here is around 5%
14:26:22 <fizzie> That sounds pretty low, compared.
14:26:28 <mroman_> well, it's not the only tax
14:26:49 <mroman_> you pay taxes to the government
14:27:14 <mroman_> the local tax is somewhat around 120% of the income tax
14:27:39 <mroman_> so if you have 5000 fed tax, you pay 6000 local tax, meaning all in all the gov gets 11000
14:28:02 <mroman_> so roughly 1/8 of your salary goes to taxes
14:28:31 <mroman_> well 1/8 of the salary you get after taxes by your employer
14:28:39 <mroman_> which takes away another 1/8 :)
14:28:47 <fizzie> One difference between the UK and Finnish systems seems to be that while in Finland the state and muncipal taxes are all part of the same tax reporting and deduct-directly-from-salary system, here only the UK-wide HMRC tax seems to go from the salary, and there's a separate "Council Tax" you pay monthly as a separate thing, based on where you live and what sort of apartment you have.
14:28:58 <mroman_> meaning if you earn 6000 a month 4500 will be at your dispense
14:30:21 <mroman_> there's also the yearly "Personalsteuer" but that's a fixed amount
14:31:28 <mroman_> how much is the Council Tax?
14:31:48 <mroman_> on average for a usual not-very-rich but not-very-poor person?
14:31:56 <fizzie> It's not income-based at all.
14:32:14 <fizzie> It's based on which "council tax band" your apartment is in.
14:32:23 <mroman_> and what's the most common council tax band?
14:32:40 <fizzie> AIUI, the council tax band assignments are based on some decades-old valuation that is completely disconnected from reality.
14:32:54 <mroman_> and how much is that most common tax band?
14:32:56 <fizzie> But it's generally "more expensive place -> higher council tax", so I guess it's correlated with income.
14:33:27 <fizzie> I have no idea, but not terribly much. Less than £100/month.
14:34:10 <fizzie> I don't know if there's some transfer of money from the state to the local authorities, or how it works. I'm new here.
14:35:31 <fizzie> From what I've heard, the council tax rates vary quite wildly on which council you're in.
14:35:59 <fizzie> Apparently the average in London in 2008 was £1268 a year, so a bit over £100.
14:36:21 <fizzie> Ranging from £680 to £1490 for "band D".
14:38:16 <fizzie> Apparently the other bands are fixed ratios (from 2/3 to 2) of band D.
14:46:27 <lambdabot> LOWI 051420Z 06006KT 010V120 9999 FEW065TCU SCT070 32/15 Q1019 NOSIG
14:47:49 <lambdabot> LSZH 051420Z VRB02KT CAVOK 31/16 Q1020 NOSIG
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15:18:29 <zzo38> How many computer program doing audio-related stuff define tau instead of pi?
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15:57:11 <zzo38> I don't like defining tau by circles though; I prefer: e^(i tau)=1
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16:17:17 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, the entire significance of that formula is that complex exponentiation is rotation
16:19:07 <zzo38> You can define e^x by a infinite series, and if you put complex numbers in, that is what it makes. One significance of such series is you can calculate the derivative to also be e^x.
16:21:01 <zzo38> So, it doesn't seem circles
16:21:30 <Phantom_Hoover> i mean that's true but then you're just saying stuff about arbitrary infinite series
16:22:05 <Phantom_Hoover> you need the link to exponentiation and trigonometry for the identity to actually be meaningful
16:23:22 <zzo38> It isn't completely arbitrary; it has d(e^x)=e^x dx
16:24:24 <shachaf> You still haven't said what d is. :-(
16:25:02 <zzo38> It is a derivative operator
16:25:44 <Phantom_Hoover> oh, all this time i'd been thinking it was the cellular boundary
16:26:38 <zzo38> The dx is the derivative operator which is already applied
16:30:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43147&oldid=37072 * Paul2520 * (-9) /* References */ replaced History of QED link
16:32:36 <zzo38> The "d" by itself is not something that is in use by itself (although Euler's differential operator can be used by itself if you pay attention properly!)
16:33:17 <zzo38> I don't know what is the type of d. Maybe I can figure out but I haven't done yet
16:38:56 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, did we not have this discussion like 2 weeks ago
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16:40:04 <Phantom_Hoover> there is a well-defined differential operator and it's usually written D, but it's not the same as liebniz notation
16:41:05 <zzo38> You can't use "d" by itself but it is possible to use "D" by itself, is what I said
16:42:04 <Phantom_Hoover> it also obviously doesn't have a type because most mathematics doesn't use type theory
16:43:09 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, but I don't remember getting a clear answer.
16:43:25 <shachaf> As I remember it zzo38 was saying that it was more than convenient notation.
16:44:11 <zzo38> Yes, but the notation d^2y/dx^2 for the second derivative is wrong.
16:44:34 <shachaf> I convinced myself that it made sense once.
16:45:28 <zzo38> If you actually write d(dy/dx)/dx and then to try to calculate it properly, you will see what it actually adds up to.
16:45:31 <shachaf> And I don't necessary mean "type" in a completely formal way.
16:45:39 <Phantom_Hoover> the idea is that you write (d/dx) for the differential operator
16:45:55 <shachaf> "what sorts of things does it turn into what sorts of things?"
16:46:33 <shachaf> And if it's just convenient notation, why does it seem to work so well?
16:47:20 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Yes, although the (d/dx) is really Euler's "D" operator; it is just written as d/dx for convenience because Dy=dy/dx (if derivatives are taken with respect to x) for example.
16:48:33 <shachaf> 17:19 <ski> dylukes : let's assume we have `y = g(x)', and want to compute `d f(x,y) / d x'
16:48:36 <shachaf> 17:20 <ski> dylukes : interpreting this as a partial derivative, it really means `let y = g(x) in d f(x,y) / d x'
16:48:39 <shachaf> 17:20 <ski> dylukes : while interpreting this as a total derivative, it really means `d (let y = g(x) in f(x,y)) / d x'
16:49:11 <shachaf> Anyway I don't know any sort of infinitesimals where that really works.
16:49:28 <zzo38> They don't look like infinitesimals to me, even though they are often called that.
16:51:10 <Phantom_Hoover> the infinitesimals for which it works are the completely nonformal handwavy ones
16:51:36 <shachaf> In "f(x) + df(g) / dx", the x in f(x) and the x in g(x) are different xs
16:51:56 <shachaf> df(x)/dx is both a binder and a consumer of x
16:56:11 <zzo38> That is because the x here is a variable
16:56:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43148&oldid=40602 * 2.98.83.249 * (+76025)
16:57:19 <shachaf> What does it mean that \int dy/dx dx = \int dy?
16:57:22 <zzo38> If it is a constant then it is dividing by zero, and of course you cannot divide by zero.
16:59:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43149&oldid=41175 * 2.98.83.249 * (+11455)
17:00:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Paul2520]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43150&oldid=43143 * 2.98.83.249 * (+23683)
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17:04:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43153&oldid=22183 * 2.98.83.249 * (+26285)
17:05:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Prehistory of esoteric programming languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43154&oldid=43147 * 2.98.83.249 * (+35219)
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17:13:20 <zzo38> If C represents a constant, then: \int(2xdx) = \int(d(x^2)+0) = \int(d(x^2)+dC) = \int(d(x^2+C)) = x^2+C
17:13:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Jabutosama]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43158&oldid=43152 * 213.162.68.175 * (-46213) Undo changes by [[Special:Contributions/2.98.83.249|2.98.83.249]]
17:14:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ACIDIC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43159&oldid=43153 * 213.162.68.175 * (-26285) Undo revision 43153 by [[Special:Contributions/2.98.83.249|2.98.83.249]] ([[User talk:2.98.83.249|talk]])
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17:16:37 * int-e hopes he hasn't just made oerjan's and elliott's job harder...
17:19:58 <int-e> zzo38: shouldn't the constant be introduced when evaluating \int(dt), say \int(dt) = t + C ?
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17:20:48 <zzo38> int-e: I suppose that is the other way too.
17:28:17 <zzo38> But, isn't dt=d(t+C) anyways?
17:28:55 <int-e> Isn't that the point...
17:29:36 <int-e> I mean, because dt=d(t+C), the "inverse" \int should return a result modulo addition of a constant, and that's usually denoted by the + C part.
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17:53:42 <zzo38> What way can you get a pseudo-random number from a floating-point number as input?
17:54:31 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
17:54:32 <int-e> ...discard the number...
17:55:58 <int-e> https://xkcd.com/221/
17:56:30 <zzo38> No I mean such that f(x)=noise and is always the same noise, and if you do f(-x) then you get the reversed noise
17:58:45 <int-e> sorry, but you almost never define what you need precisely enough to give sensible answers.
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18:27:23 <oren> If you want something done properly you have to compile the program yourseld
18:27:36 <shachaf> What are some good characterizations of the reals?
18:28:47 <oren> I thought the one by spivak in 'Calculus' was pretty convincing
18:29:13 <shachaf> I want characterizations other than "complete ordered field" or even anything related to numbers.
18:29:26 <shachaf> E.g. http://mathoverflow.net/q/92206
18:29:36 <oren> Oh. well poop, I dunno
18:33:22 <oren> that one with the closed points is pretty cool I have to say.
18:39:01 <oren> so we're then defining the reals as (0,1] x Z?
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18:44:32 <shachaf> `le/rn the reals/The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. They are universally useful in homotopy.
18:49:27 <shachaf> pikhq: are you moving to mountain view twh
18:50:01 <pikhq> shachaf: If I get the job (which seems really likely at this point), yes.
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18:56:56 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. They are universally useful in homotopy.
18:57:36 <Taneb> I am not sure about "universally"
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19:02:45 <shachaf> pikhq: What did you think of your interview?
19:03:08 <shachaf> Apparently during my interviews they did a bunch of things they weren't supposed to do.
19:03:25 <shachaf> My favorite part of it was that they let me choose what one of the interviews would be about.
19:03:48 <pikhq> The interviews were just a bunch of fun challenges; I had a pretty good time.
19:03:48 <shachaf> I can't tell whether that's standard.
19:07:03 <pikhq> The recruiter gave me a choice of two options for one of them.
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19:08:06 <pikhq> My impression is that the interviews went spectacularly.
19:08:23 <pikhq> And the recruiter afterwards told me that all the interviewers said the same, so there's that.
19:09:15 <pikhq> So, no guarantees but it really does sound likely that I've got it.
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19:09:53 <shachaf> Hmm, do you remember your interviewers' names?
19:10:03 <shachaf> You probably shouldn't say that in here anyway.
19:10:13 <pikhq> And even if I did I distinctly remember only hearing first names anyways.
19:10:30 <pikhq> And it's *incredibly* unlikely that first names are unique in the Googleplex. :P
19:11:33 <shachaf> Anyway it's less unlikely that they're unique in the SRE interviewer pool.
19:12:07 <pikhq> Less unlikely they're unique.
19:12:39 <shachaf> I just mean that there are many fewer people in a position to interview you than Google employees overall.
19:13:00 <pikhq> Not that many SREs overall?
19:14:26 <int-e> hmm. reals are cutting edge in the field of rational numbers
19:16:57 <HackEgo> Comonads are just monads in the dual category.
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19:23:42 <int-e> Hmm, mroman could easily be confused with the dual of a cormoran.
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19:36:26 <int-e> fun. with data Color = R | B and data Tree a = E | T Color (Tree a) a (Tree a), T R E E E is an actual (technically, I'd prefer the root to be black) valid red-black tree
19:45:18 <int-e> (Okasaki has an exercise to implement a linear time fromOrdList for red-black trees, which turned out to be more interesting than expected)
19:49:10 <Taneb> `learn codensity is just mass per volume with all the arrows reversed.
19:49:11 <HackEgo> Learned 'codensity': codensity is just mass per volume with all the arrows reversed.
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20:19:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FlogScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43161&oldid=42039 * 63.232.95.4 * (+0) /* Operators and builtin functions (very incomplete list) */ 7 5 * should equal 35
20:20:35 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/p5BSuZDj
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20:31:06 <Lyka> can anyone see me?
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20:48:40 <HackEgo> mockingbird/mockingbird is watching you.. closely! Is it mocking you? Probably.
20:48:41 <HackEgo> vanila/In a cruel twist of fate, vanila has come to #esoteric in search of wisdom.
20:48:44 <HackEgo> for further details for futher details./See `? for further details for futher details.
20:48:44 <HackEgo> egobot/EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
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21:10:56 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
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21:54:56 <Taneb> Oh man, I have been home for one day and 8 hours and I have finished my book :)
21:55:09 <shachaf> Taneb: do you want more books
21:55:35 <Taneb> shachaf, unfortunately my book was volume 1 of the 2 volume edition of A Dance With Dragons, so I would like that book
21:56:13 <shachaf> what if you read other books instead
21:56:17 <Taneb> I am borrowing them from one of my housemates in York
21:56:28 <Taneb> But York is like 90 miles away
21:57:17 <shachaf> Weren't you coming here to have poutine?
21:58:00 <Taneb> I think I can make poutine in York relatively easily
21:58:07 <Taneb> What is in poutine sauce?
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21:59:52 <zzo38> Now you have to add a wisdom file for "anywhere" too
22:00:29 <shachaf> Taneb: that sauce can vary quite a bit
22:00:37 <shachaf> it all depends on what you want to poutine it
22:02:07 <Taneb> Also how does poutine differ from cheesy chips with gravey
22:03:34 <shachaf> for one it isn't made with chips
22:04:35 <shachaf> well in hebrew they're called chips, actually
22:06:20 <Taneb> I don't think cheesy crisps would quite work
22:06:59 <Taneb> Well, it's dangerously close to nachos
22:07:33 <shachaf> smoke's poutinerie has nacho poutines
22:08:01 <shachaf> with salsa, sour cream, jalapeño peppers, and guacamole
22:08:12 <shachaf> somehow it seems dishonest
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23:03:20 <oren> poutines also often have vin aigre
23:04:38 <oren> Also I grew up calling them chips. The truck that sells them is called a chip truck
23:05:07 <oren> I guess in England they call it a chip lorry?
23:07:12 <oren> Are web cookies called web biscuits in England?
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23:22:09 <zzo38> Do any terminal emulators you can put a DLE code (or some other code) before any byte to cause it to always emit it as a character (in the PC character set, for example)?
23:25:08 <zzo38> There are a few VT100 graphics which aren't also in the PC set, although many terminal emulators do not seem to support these VT100 graphics anyways
23:25:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know of any terminal that's capable of doing that, but on the linux console I think you can define any mapping from characters of the terminal to characters in the VGA charset, and you can even use that mapping as the secondary mapping (which is by default the vt100 graphics)
23:26:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, I think some line printers have such a code
23:28:23 <b_jonas> plus I think that's a two-level translation
23:29:13 <zzo38> I did do that; while it does allow accessing all of the characters it is a bit messy to do, because something internally causes it to get mixed up and therefore you need to activate the G1 set and then emit the high characters and the internal encoder will somehow then sometimes select the ones that were previously inaccessible
23:30:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, for the linux console, you can try writing directly to /dev/vcsa*
23:31:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: in my font, all the glyphs in the low control characters also appear somewhere on non-ascii unicode value, so you can use those
23:32:21 <b_jonas> I think that might be possible on the linux console in unicode mode too
23:32:52 <b_jonas> accessing the characters as mapped from high unicode values after setting the terminal to utf8
23:34:03 <zzo38> Better way would be to just use a prefix code to access PC characters; otherwise you get ASCII and VT100 characters only
23:40:08 <oren> Dwarf fortress appears to simply output unicode
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23:50:07 <zzo38> The Swiss Ephemeris testing program uses Unicode for the degree sign (it also has no option to use the current date); I made a shell script to use sed to change the Unicode degree sign into the VT100 degree sign (as well as to fill in the current date by default).
23:50:26 <zzo38> (I could have changed the source-codes and recompiled it, but I didn't bother to do that.)
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23:51:42 <zzo38> Those are two problems with Swiss Ephemeris to be aware of if anyone else is going to use them!
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23:58:02 <zzo38> The computer I can SSH into has no mail or C compiler or man pages or whatever, but from there it is possible to SSH to the computer that does have it. Both computers do share user files though. Do you know why? I don't know why they made it like that!
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01:42:16 <shachaf> `le/rn whitespace/see https://www.bing.com/search?q=whitespace
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02:19:32 <HackEgo> see https://www.bing.com/search?q=whitespace
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02:45:17 <MDude> No results at all?
02:45:29 <MDude> Bing you're awful.
02:48:39 <oren> http://www.baidu.com/s?ie=utf-8&tn=baidu&wd=whitespace
02:49:04 <oren> note the great suggestions on the righthand side
02:49:22 <oren> baidu knows what's up.
02:50:44 <MDude> It certainly does.
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02:51:29 <alguien> what a weird book! interesting
03:12:43 <zzo38> Why is my radio scratchy when I stand near it?
03:15:19 <zzo38> It only happens with one of my radios, is independent of the channel it is tuned to, and doesn't happen when different people stand near the radio instead.
03:16:16 <zzo38> It also does not happen when it is playing a tape or CD.
03:18:36 <GeekDude> You need to clear yourself with the fcv
03:19:00 <zzo38> I don't get this problem with any other radio.
03:19:08 <zzo38> (Also, it is independent of AM/FM)
03:22:40 <MDude> The radio is aware, and attemtping to respond to you.
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04:17:58 <oren> With one of my old TV's I would get the best reception by holding the speaker wire antena really tight
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05:11:03 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
05:12:39 <HackEgo> All The Tropes? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:13:27 <zzo38> `le/rn All The Tropes/A card game where you win if you collect *all* of the tropes.
05:17:01 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
05:17:42 <HackEgo> copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
05:17:53 <HackEgo> MDude is just a dude, with an M's courage.
05:19:15 <HackEgo> Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2.
05:20:08 <zzo38> `? Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe
05:20:09 <HackEgo> Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:20:18 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
05:27:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43162&oldid=40485 * Imaginer1 * (+24)
05:27:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43163&oldid=40675 * Imaginer1 * (-59) Removed shameless plug
05:33:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43164&oldid=40325 * Imaginer1 * (+65)
05:33:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43165&oldid=43164 * Imaginer1 * (+11)
05:35:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wordfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43166&oldid=40386 * Imaginer1 * (-881)
05:37:56 <MDude> http://davidbau.com/complex/#z^%281%2Bt*4%29%2B%281-t%29
05:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43167&oldid=43146 * Imaginer1 * (+14) Added bitoven
05:39:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43168&oldid=43163 * Imaginer1 * (-4) It's not really WIP.
05:40:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43169&oldid=43168 * Imaginer1 * (+77) Added a clarification to the while loop.
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06:08:33 <zzo38> That is how many files you didn't write.
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06:16:23 <zzo38> A lot. I just queried some of them, many of which don't exist.
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06:37:21 <Lyka|Phone> I think i've stabilized the language for now
06:39:17 <Lyka|Phone> we'll see how the extension protocol works with 4FK Cuddlefish when the final component arrives tomorrow
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06:40:28 <Lyka|Phone> I will have to add commands, but I assume they will be extension commands
06:42:48 <Lyka|Phone> okay, my vision is getting blurry from fatigue
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07:54:46 <oren> Why the hell is there no <verbatim> tag?!?!?!
07:59:54 <oren> To insert HTML into HTML
08:00:18 <oren> or any other language that needs < > ' &
08:00:48 <fizzie> How would it work for "</verbatim>" in verbatim?
08:01:27 <fizzie> (There's the CDATA section in XML for that, but I'm not sure / don't think it's in modern HTML.)
08:01:29 <oren> maybe <verbatim-arbitrary-ident> ?
08:02:31 <oren> For now I'll just translate it in PHP...
08:02:41 <fizzie> No, I'm wrong -- it's in the W3 HTML5 spec, at least.
08:03:00 <fizzie> <![CDATA[ what<ever> I don't & care ]]>
08:03:17 <fizzie> (It's bad if you happen to need "]]>", though.)
08:03:32 <fizzie> Oh, only in foreign content.
08:03:45 <fizzie> "CDATA sections can only be used in foreign content (MathML or SVG)."
08:05:47 <mroman_> *Main> run $ runParserWithString parseExpression ",,+1++1+,+1++1"
08:06:28 <mroman_> That's (++1 + ++1) + (++1 + ++1)
08:07:15 <mroman_> +,+,+1++1++,+1++1 is ++(++(++1 + ++ 1) + ++(++1 + ++ 1))
08:07:52 <mroman_> *Main> run $ runParserWithString parseExpression "+,+,+1++1++,+1++1"
08:08:18 <mroman_> Figuring out what the , does is left as an exercise for the reader :p
08:08:39 <fizzie> The ++1 part keeps wierding me out, because ++x is quite different from (x+1) in C.
08:09:10 <mroman_> Prefix + is just increment
08:12:13 <mroman_> *Main> run $ runParserWithString parseExpression "+.+,+,+1++1++,+1++1-"
08:12:55 <mroman_> These would be good exercises for IT students to figure out :D
08:13:42 <mroman_> fizzie: Instead of brackets it uses , and .
08:13:48 <mroman_> , denotes infix and . denotes postfix
08:15:38 <mroman_> - postfix always forms a negative number
08:16:35 <zzo38> In HTML there is a <xmp> command to make plain text directly but then you can't type </xmp> inside of it. There is also <plaintext> which cannot be terminated at all.
08:17:03 <mroman_> Does HTML5 still have that?
08:17:05 <zzo38> Therefore it can include any text including </plaintext> or whatever else you want it to include
08:20:04 <oren> xmp is supposedly an "obsolete feature" according to mozilla.org. god damn it, I hate these people
08:21:04 <oren> they put in a new tag and take out the old tag, and soon old web pages on the internet archive won't render
08:21:34 <mroman_> What does .,5+,3*3- evaluate to ;)?
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08:28:29 <mroman_> which is the same as ,,5+,3*3*_1
08:28:34 <mroman_> using J notation for negative numbers
08:29:41 <fizzie> <plaintext> seems even worse. "This element has been deprecated since HTML 2 and was never implemented by all browsers; even those that did implement it didn't do so consistently. In addition, it is obsoleted in HTML 5; browsers that still accept it may simply treat it as a <pre> element, which still interprets HTML within, even though that's not what you probably want."
08:30:03 <fizzie> I think people generally just escape.
08:30:18 <mroman_> Having to escape in pre always bothered me
08:30:43 <mroman_> <verbatim end="EOF">hi there <b>hi</b>EOF
08:31:05 <fizzie> There seems to also have been a <listing>, which "is deprecated since HTML 3.2 and was neither implemented by all browsers, nor in a consistent way."
08:31:34 <mroman_> although browsers seem smart enough to render things like <pre>for(int j = 0; j < x; j++)</pre> still correctly
08:31:57 <mroman_> where corretly means like the user would have expected not knowing he'd better escape the <
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08:45:10 <mroman_> Well, Burlesque won't have a chance against this new language :D
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08:52:53 <fizzie> "Good morning Europe!", to ape the Eurovision greetings.
08:52:55 <mroman_> 5 10r@#S is now just U,5:10
08:53:19 <fizzie> They said "Good morning, Australia!" so often.
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09:23:39 <mroman_> *Main> run $ runParserWithString parseExpression ",:4M{:p}"
09:23:40 <mroman_> [[1] [1 2] [1 2 3] [1 2 3 4]]
09:24:49 <mroman_> infix map looks kinda strange though
09:32:00 <mroman_> Although the closing } is purely optional of course :D
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09:32:35 <mroman_> 4ro)ro)<- is now just ,:4M{~:p
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10:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gulf]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43170 * 160.85.232.184 * (+764) Gulf - a new kind of Burlesque
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11:46:04 <mroman_> p is a special variable that refers to the top of the stack (and pops when read)
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12:32:09 <mroman_> jesus christ fuck the Java ecosystem .
12:32:52 <int-e> you want it to breed?
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12:34:54 <mroman_> and give reasonable errors AT FUCKING COMPILE TIME
12:35:17 <int-e> ...wait 18 years...oh wait, java is actually old enough...
12:39:03 <mroman_> this JPA shit is really getting on my nerves
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12:44:57 <mroman_> java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: org.slf4j.spi.LocationAwareLogger.log
12:45:23 <mroman_> those are runtime incompatabilities you have no chance detecting until it's too late
12:47:01 <mroman_> most of the JPA stuff works
12:47:11 <mroman_> which results in another stupid runtime error
12:47:20 <mroman_> are you kidding me, java folks?
12:58:13 <int-e> welcome to the wonderful world of reflection and mirages...
13:00:15 <int-e> . o O ( no springs attached )
13:02:20 <mroman_> Class has two properties of the same name "members
13:02:25 <mroman_> How the fuck is that even possible?
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13:05:56 <int-e> oh that's a good one, I have no clue.
13:05:58 <Jafet> Remember when java was young and innocent
13:06:11 <Jafet> Before it grew hot spots
13:06:26 <int-e> Jafet: you mean when it was unusable and ridiculously slow?
13:06:39 <mroman_> I'm becoming a hater of reflection/runtime magic
13:06:46 <mroman_> even though runtime magic solves a lot of problems
13:06:52 <int-e> (rather than unusable and ridiculously memory hungry)
13:06:52 <mroman_> it introduces a hell lot of other problems as well
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13:07:15 <mroman_> well... it turns out that when I run it from eclipse eclipse injects some old version of something
13:07:23 <mroman_> which causes runtime incompatibilities
13:07:29 <int-e> mroman_: can you still laugh about the term "XML programming"?
13:07:54 <int-e> I remember that after some forays into spring configuration files, I no longer could.
13:08:13 <mroman_> Is that the thing in Java that all configuration is made with huuuuge xml files
13:08:47 <mroman_> that have to be in some specific directories
13:09:07 <int-e> "XML programming" is a variation on "HTML programming", which is a derogatory term, a half joke.
13:09:25 <mroman_> You can program in XLST or something though?
13:10:21 <mroman_> I've heavily used JAXB though.
13:10:27 <int-e> I agree it's an actual programming language, but it really needs a better syntax.
13:10:54 <int-e> I'm not kidding. XML syntax is *not* human readable, never mind maintainable.
13:10:54 <mroman_> and this whole servlet containers, servlets and whatever thing is also a huge mess
13:11:12 <mroman_> there are different servlets, different servlet containers, different implementations of jax-rs and
13:12:24 <mroman_> the hardest part of being a java programmer is navigating through this ugly mess of things :)
13:12:57 <int-e> anyway, back when I was dabbling with some enterprisey java behemoth, the two things I hated most were a) dependency injection via XML (e.g. spring) and b) browsing source code files and ending up with an interface ... whuch then turns out to have exactly one implementation.
13:14:24 <mroman_> It has it's downside though
13:14:24 <int-e> that was 5 years ago, I have not touched Java since
13:14:33 <mroman_> for simple stuff I'd prefer factories but that's just my opinion
13:15:06 <mroman_> the good thing is that every java newcomer will now what a factory is
13:15:30 <mroman_> but reading up on all the crazy shit you can do with guice and then use it in a reasonable way is another story
13:16:22 <mroman_> luckily simple things with guice are still simple to do :)
13:18:44 * int-e is living in a dream world where Java doesn't exist ;)
13:18:58 <mroman_> I'm living in a dream world where ecosystems of languages merge
13:19:31 <mroman_> and languages are just syntactic sugar
13:20:12 <mroman_> You'd just need some way of automatically deriving bindings of something
13:20:37 <int-e> quick, write an NSF grant proposal about it...
13:22:37 <int-e> National Science Foundation (which is a US thing, other countries have similar institutions, but I picked the NSF as the one that is most likely to be known)
13:22:38 <mroman_> Somebody should've just created a garbage collected version of C
13:22:51 <mroman_> with separate compilations
13:22:57 <mroman_> then everybody could just stick to using that :)
13:23:20 <int-e> People who write C don't believe in GC to such an extent that they will actively fight against having one.
13:23:56 <mroman_> too bad they don't believe in memory safety
13:24:29 <int-e> But no GC. I wonder why... ;)
13:24:38 <mroman_> well... it guarantees memory safety
13:26:29 <mroman_> now Rust just needs servlets, servlet containers, servlet container containers, container servlets, enterprise servlets, enterprise beans, plain old enterprise beans
13:28:10 <Jafet> You can already use boehmgc to get a garbage collected version of C
13:28:54 <Jafet> That's usually silly, though, since there are much better languages with garbage collection
13:31:30 <Jafet> I think the last time they tried to standardize language bindings, they ended up with CORBA.
13:35:38 <mroman_> I'd be more interested in some form of ABI
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13:47:54 <mroman_> what's sensitivity and specifity again?
13:48:37 <mroman_> true positive and true negative?
13:49:25 <mroman_> ah. probability of testing positive if you're actually positive
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14:00:20 * oerjan notes disturbingly a piece has fallen off his laptop
14:01:00 <int-e> . o O ( quick, catch it, before it gets away! )
14:02:20 <oerjan> some small plasticy cylinder/disk
14:03:30 <boily> it's a magic blue smoke conduit hth
14:03:39 * oerjan found a place it probably fits
14:04:09 <boily> the place the magic blue smoke conduit fits in? tdsh.
14:04:32 <oerjan> the materical resembles the protective "feet" of the laptop, but seems to fit in a much smaller hole.
14:07:47 <oerjan> apparently the english term _is_ rubber feet huh
14:09:30 <lambdabot> LOWI 061350Z 05007KT 360V090 9999 VCTS FEW055CB SCT070TCU 29/17 Q1021 NOSIG
14:09:48 <int-e> ...cooling off ever so slowly...
14:09:59 <lambdabot> LSZH 061350Z 30004KT 230V350 9999 FEW060CB 30/15 Q1022 NOSIG
14:10:34 <mroman_> and I'm sitting in beach shorts and a muscle shirt at work
14:10:58 * int-e tries to connect "work" and "Saturday", but fails.
14:11:06 <lambdabot> ENVA 061350Z 04003KT 020V080 9999 -SHRA FEW020 SCT030 BKN050 15/11 Q1004 RMK WIND 670FT 08003KT
14:11:22 <oerjan> apparently norway is "north of the jet stream" tdnh
14:11:34 <int-e> oerjan: sounds pleasant :P
14:11:52 <mroman_> int-e: I'm working every day
14:12:22 <oerjan> int-e: except it means, paradoxically, that global warming sometimes makes our country _colder_.
14:12:30 <mroman_> On average I work on 6.2 days a week
14:13:02 <mroman_> although it can go up to 7 days a week when I feel like doing that
14:14:27 <int-e> oerjan: so averages are paradoxical now?
14:17:02 <lambdabot> CYUL 061400Z 33011G18KT 320V020 30SM FEW040 FEW240 13/02 A3015 RMK CU1CI1 CU TR SLP210
14:17:40 <oerjan> well my vague impression is that global warming in the arctic is stronger, which causes the arctic climate region (bounded by the jet stream) to _expand_
14:18:43 * oerjan wikipedes before spreading more hearsay
14:23:59 <oerjan> hm ok wikipedia disagrees with the vague impression
14:25:04 <oerjan> except that it may become "more variable in its course"
14:26:28 <oerjan> also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jet_stream#Unpowered_aerial_attack
14:27:24 <oerjan> "Oishi's work largely went unnoticed outside Japan because it was published in Esperanto."
14:29:06 <mroman_> I think we should just do what Futurama did.
14:29:17 <mroman_> Mine some large ice blocks from Mars and dump it into our seas
14:29:40 <mroman_> Let's just hope there are no dangerous viruses or bacterias in that ice block from Mars.
14:29:46 <oerjan> i'm sure that'll do wonders for the sea level, too
14:29:52 <mroman_> also.. why has no Rover yet landed on Mars's ice?
14:30:27 <oerjan> perhaps it's tricky to land in polar regions
14:30:29 <mroman_> Who cares about sea level.
14:30:46 <mroman_> fungot: Do you care about sea levels?
14:30:46 <fungot> mroman_: " cooks need not be fnord will give' fnord this will sound too fnord will sound fnord': like very old friends, in fnord fnord: they fnord not for reward nor thanks: their cheeks are hot with honest shame for you, to give the prizes?" quite distinctly.
14:30:52 <fungot> Available: agora alice* c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:30:56 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
14:30:59 <mroman_> fungot: Do you care about sea levels?
14:31:00 <fungot> mroman_: queues would make more sense to work with cygwin.
14:31:53 <mroman_> We'll just build huge walls around sea shores
14:32:00 <mroman_> like we do around borders of countries
14:32:30 <oerjan> Strahlstrom sound so much more ominous.
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14:33:13 <mroman_> fungot: Do you obey the queen?
14:33:13 <fungot> mroman_: s/ dictionary/ fnord :)) then it is
14:33:30 <boily> everything's a fnord to the fungot.
14:33:30 <fungot> boily: i don't even understand what's there to understand the implications though, i don't want it to
14:33:31 <mroman_> You should do s/dictionary/fnord on Wikipedia .
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14:34:02 <oerjan> mroman_: the dutch have some experience with that.
14:34:41 <mroman_> A fnord is a collection of words. A broad distinction is made between general and specialized fnords. The oldest known fnords were Akkadian Empire cuneiform tablets.
14:34:47 <mroman_> oerjan: What did the dutch do?
14:35:03 <oerjan> well they got a bunch of dikes
14:36:07 <oerjan> and reclaimed some land from the sea
14:36:30 <mroman_> I thought that was related to globally replacing words in the dutch wikipedia
14:36:42 <oerjan> i would know nothing about that
14:37:32 <oerjan> dutch is one of my "wtf would anyone want to sound like that" languages, next to arabic.
14:39:29 <mroman_> In my opinion tonal languages sound much weirder
14:39:42 <mroman_> (secretly hoping that arabic isn't a tonal language)
14:40:00 <oerjan> not that i've heard of
14:42:53 <boily> just listened to http://omniglot.com/soundfiles/udhr/udhr_nl.mp3 . there are too many /χ/ to my taste.
14:44:08 <mroman_> Obviously it's a very common sound in swiss german.
14:45:05 <mroman_> but you're right. They overuse that more than we do
14:45:22 <mroman_> but arabic doesn't sound too bad
14:46:31 <mroman_> I'd totally learn it if it were free to do so
14:46:34 <boily> well, it depends on the Arabic fork and version... Algerian Arabic is fun, because they tend to put in random French words in it.
14:47:03 <boily> (otoh, it's not fun because of Berber phonotactics.)
14:48:04 <mroman_> (and by free I mean a free coach with at least 2.5h per week)
14:48:29 <mroman_> and 0.5h of those have to be specific voice/pronunciation coaching
14:48:49 <mroman_> I hate that people don't put enough emphasis on correctly pronouncing foreign languages
14:49:15 <mroman_> My english pronunciation is fucking terrible
14:49:20 <mroman_> but still better than Ueli Maurer's.
14:50:06 <oerjan> mroman_: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5PaPHFC6y0
14:51:32 <mroman_> That's about as good as most non-native-english-speaking politicians
14:51:56 <oerjan> mroman_: he's infamous in norway for it
14:52:01 <mroman_> I think that if a dutch speaks english it sounds worse to dutch people than to german people :)
14:52:14 <mroman_> doesn't sound too bad to me
14:52:56 <mroman_> mainly because norwegians probably recognize common miss-pronunciations better in Jagland than I would
14:53:05 <oerjan> mroman_: FireFly disagrees and he's not norwegian hth
14:53:17 <mroman_> I sound equally bad I think
14:53:30 <mroman_> Unless I really try hard to fake some non existing british accent
14:53:41 <mroman_> then it sounds OK at least to me but It'd probably piss of the quenn.
14:55:33 * oerjan admits to sometimes trying to read english aloud like david attenborough
14:56:08 -!- Lyka|Away has changed nick to Lyka.
14:56:12 <FireFly> I think my english pronounciation is pretty bad, too
14:58:14 * oerjan tried to google thor heyerdahl but only found a parody of him https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxpeCR4OX34
14:58:21 <Lyka> adaptor to connect the arduino touch-screen to the arduino mega came today
14:58:43 <Lyka> so now i have to figure out how to program this thing
15:00:23 <oerjan> hm wait more in the sidebar
15:01:08 <Lyka> see if i can create 4FK Cuddlefish for it without modifying the core languge
15:03:16 -!- tromp__ has joined.
15:03:17 <Lyka> 4FK's current extension system allows for 6 base-32 chars and 4 unsigned chars (1-byte) each loaded in the form of 2 hex chars
15:03:21 -!- tromp_ has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
15:04:44 <Lyka> the core commands are made up of 4 printable-ascii chars (minus space and lowercase)
15:07:03 <Lyka> and the six b32s in the extention command form can also be of any of the 78 valid chars, not just the 32 in base32
15:07:38 <Lyka> just that numerical input has to be in hex or b32
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15:54:19 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. They are universally useful in homotopy.
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15:54:57 <oerjan> `run mv wisdom/{"the reals",real}
15:55:13 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994. They are universally useful in homotopy.
15:59:06 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/\..*/./' wisdom/real
16:02:13 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
16:02:34 <Taneb> Interestingly, I was born in 1994. They must be my earliest invention.
16:02:51 <oerjan> that occurr?ed to me as well.
16:03:14 <shachaf> Are your inventions wellordered?
16:03:34 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
16:04:03 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/, and/, the reals, and/' wisdom/tanebvention
16:04:08 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence.
16:04:37 <myname> i hate you fpr the go part
16:04:58 <oerjan> shachaf: i feel ambivalent
16:04:59 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
16:05:39 <oerjan> shachaf: it would mean that `? would need to check up to 4 files
16:05:39 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/was/was not/' wisdom/this\ sentence
16:06:24 <shachaf> oerjan: how about redirect wisdom entries
16:06:49 <oerjan> i don't entirely trust HackEgo redirects
16:07:27 <HackEgo> |^n3e>ooѶs;ҤfcokajƻB#8.оWqnɪ8[pZqƿtNH>a<s;YvQvDKWJuRYknwXpGN<uCF+Gr=J)Gȯ'秽f hijb-Zmʊ"x3$@ke;v?9o8)
16:07:34 <oerjan> oh wait that's special-cased
16:07:50 <shachaf> i mean a special sort of wisdom entry that says "see this other wisdom entry"
16:08:21 <oerjan> i suspect there already are some wisdom/ redirects
16:08:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/perpetuum mobile \ wisdom/the torus \ wisdom/koen_ \ wisdom/issue \ wisdom/canary
16:09:31 <oerjan> `le/rn recursion See:clichés.
16:09:34 <int-e> `le/rn recursion/You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
16:09:37 <HackEgo> Learned «recursion see:clichés.»
16:09:53 <int-e> wait, how did my command beat yours?
16:10:08 <HackEgo> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
16:10:13 <shachaf> wait, that's not what you were asking
16:10:30 <oerjan> shachaf: that might be the answer though
16:10:45 * int-e keeps forgetting that hackego is parallel and asynchronous
16:11:35 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/'the torus'
16:11:39 <shachaf> `rm wisdom/recursion see:clichés.
16:11:43 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/'the torus'
16:11:46 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/the torus -> torus
16:12:16 <oerjan> `` ln -s wisdom/{real,"the reals"}
16:12:36 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
16:12:44 <shachaf> ln takes a relative path hth
16:12:55 <int-e> . o O ( `le/rn strange loop/See also: GEB. )
16:13:01 <oerjan> `` ln -s real wisdom/{"the reals"}
16:13:27 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
16:13:37 <oerjan> `` ln -s wisdom/{"the reals"} real
16:14:01 <int-e> {} only works with commas
16:14:02 <shachaf> {} only works for two or more entries
16:14:04 <oerjan> `` ln -s wisdom/"the reals" real
16:14:05 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `real': File exists
16:14:12 <oerjan> `` ln -s real wisdom/"the reals"
16:14:13 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/the reals': Not a directory
16:14:23 <shachaf> that's because someone tried to mix APIs and UIs and ended up with something that wasn't good at either
16:14:54 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/"{the reals}"
16:15:06 <int-e> yay! it's raining.
16:15:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 061550Z 28006KT 220V340 9999 -TSRA SCT060CB SCT070TCU 25/17 Q1021 TEMPO TSRA
16:15:18 <lambdabot> KOAK 061553Z VRB03KT 10SM OVC011 16/12 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01560122
16:15:23 <oerjan> `` ln -s wisdom/"the reals" real
16:15:24 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `real': File exists
16:15:48 <oerjan> `` ln -s real wisdom/"the reals"
16:15:49 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/the reals': Not a directory
16:16:04 <int-e> `` ln -s real wisdom/the\ reals
16:16:05 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `wisdom/the reals': Not a directory
16:16:09 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/"the reals"
16:16:10 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 11 Jun 6 16:13 wisdom/the reals -> wisdom/real
16:16:22 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/"the reals"
16:16:27 <oerjan> `` ln -s real wisdom/"the reals"
16:16:33 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
16:16:34 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
16:16:59 <int-e> "Not a directory" indeed.
16:17:56 <shachaf> `` find wisdom -type l | while read f; do echo -n "$(basename "$f")/"; readlink "$f"; done
16:17:57 <HackEgo> the reals/real \ perpetuum mobile/perpetual motion machine \ the torus/torus \ koen_/koen \ issue/.doorstop \ canary/../canary
16:18:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Elronnd * New user account
16:18:46 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ share \ src \ test \ test.c \ twoli
16:19:12 <int-e> `` echo cough > canary
16:19:14 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated).
16:19:25 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Jun 6 16:15 real -> wisdom/{the reals}
16:19:59 <int-e> `` shuf -n 3 random_elliott
16:20:59 <HackEgo> int main () { printf("hm"); }
16:21:26 <HackEgo> N=$(find wisdom -type f | wc -l); F="$(find wisdom -type f | head -n $((RANDOM % N)) | tail -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"
16:21:49 <HackEgo> ELF............>......@.....@.......(..........@.8..@.........@.......@.@.....@.@........................................@......@............................................@.......@................... ..................`.....`.....@......H........ .................`.....`............................
16:21:56 <HackEgo> #include <stdio.h> \ char*a="#include <stdio.h>\nchar*a=\"@\";\nvoid main(){char*b=a;for(;(*a)!=0;a++){switch(*a){case '@':if(!(*b))putchar('@');for(;(*b)!=0;b++){switch(*b){case '\"':case '\\\\':putchar('\\\\');putchar(*b);break;case '\\n':putchar('\\\\');putchar('n');break;default:putchar(*b);}}break;default:putchar(*a);}}}"; \ void main(){cha
16:22:17 <shachaf> `` echo 'F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf | head -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"' > bin/wisdom
16:22:23 <oerjan> for a second there, i was about to complain they'd saved the binary instead of the code
16:23:48 <int-e> I suppose HackEEgo has enough memory to hold the wisdom/ filelist all at once.
16:24:19 <HackEgo> ⊥/⊥ is a bottom tack, useful for annoying teachers.
16:25:15 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/shuf | head -n1/shuf -n1/' bin/wisdom
16:25:42 <shachaf> Isn't it great how sometimes you escape the | and sometimes you don't?
16:25:48 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"
16:25:55 <shachaf> It would be too simple if there was one convention for regular expressions in the world.
16:26:09 <HackEgo> bdsmreclist/* oerjan swats quintopia -----### \ <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it records all the big hits
16:26:10 <int-e> annoying ... adverb or infinitive?
16:26:37 <oerjan> int-e: definitely not infinitive hth
16:28:21 <int-e> shachaf: nah, it could be an adverb. preaching teachers, annoying teachers.
16:28:35 <HackEgo> welcome.fi/Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
16:28:56 <shachaf> int-e: How is that an adverb?
16:28:57 <int-e> oerjan: grammer is hard (i did that on purpose)
16:30:18 <quintopia> annoying is usually used as adjective or verb
16:30:23 <HackEgo> york/York used to be known as Amsterdam.
16:30:24 * int-e goes find some reference.
16:30:31 <HackEgo> west midlands/Nobody knows anything about the West Midlands, and it has claimed the lives of at least two former regulars in this channel who tried to investigate so far.
16:30:40 <HackEgo> york/York used to be known as Amsterdam.
16:30:48 <shachaf> are you sure this shuf thing is reliable
16:30:54 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
16:30:58 <boily> shachaf: as reliable as fungot.
16:30:58 <fungot> boily: and on the net and " oletko ismo" of all the repos on the front of the alist? ( i know because i've never gotten it to work
16:31:17 <boily> food. I need to go grocery shopping and stuff.
16:31:25 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:31:35 <boily> fungot: go oletko ismo yourself, you vile spawn.
16:31:35 <fungot> boily: that " fnord" " neck" " eye" " fnord/ new/ scheme
16:31:46 <shachaf> "oletko" is finnish for "are you"
16:31:55 <boily> oh. uhm. eeeeeh...
16:31:59 <quintopia> shop for veggies of the awesome viet chef sort?
16:32:47 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
16:32:51 <HackEgo> nepeta leijon/Nepeta Leijon is the maintainer of the official Alternian shipping wall.
16:32:55 <HackEgo> wiki/The wiki is at http://esolangs.org/wiki
16:33:33 <boily> sounds like a plan. buy the food, cook, ?????, profit.
16:33:36 <oerjan> int-e: "grammer" is spelling, not grammar hth
16:33:49 -!- boily has quit (Quit: GYROSCOPIC CHICKEN).
16:35:23 <HackEgo> colour/Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthul
16:35:29 <HackEgo> justice/Justice is just behavior or treatment.
16:35:39 <int-e> Ok, I meant[4~ participle and gerund.
16:36:19 <int-e> oerjan: it be harder to mess grammar up. though much harder not, granting.
16:37:04 <shachaf> i used to confuse "burma" and "bursa"
16:37:18 <shachaf> the latter as in a stock exchange or something
16:38:21 <int-e> (Now I need to find a way to mess up grammar without sounding like Yoda.)
16:39:32 <Taneb> int-e, mess up grammar is ease
16:39:37 <oerjan> grammarer are verys easied to's the messily up
16:40:07 <int-e> But it's hard to make it look like and accidently.
16:40:34 <int-e> hmpf. s/and/an/ is what I meant to type.
16:40:41 <shachaf> Messing up grammar is impossible.
16:43:07 <oerjan> int-e: would grammar excessively initial-head be opposite the of yoda?
16:43:09 <quintopia> messing up grammar is harder than yoda
16:43:43 <oerjan> *initial-head excessively
16:45:06 <int-e> hmm, the co-yoda lemma
16:48:22 <oerjan> you also yoda than further head-finally even go could
16:53:02 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ->).
16:54:32 <HackEgo> log/I think you might mean !logs
16:54:35 <HackEgo> phantom___hoover/Phantom___Hoover sucks at ghosting himself.
16:55:22 <Taneb> Is it possible to ghost the account you are using?
16:55:37 <HackEgo> the u/The U are a very mad people.
16:59:34 -!- Welo has quit (Quit: Leaving).
17:20:51 -!- idris-bot has joined.
17:23:15 -!- ais523 has joined.
17:29:20 <HackEgo> luxembourg/Luxembourg is adequate.
17:29:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Ais523 * blocked [[User:2.98.83.249]] with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): replacing pages with material that's offtopic, probably also copyvio
17:33:38 <ais523> an IP cleaned up the spam; thanks IP
17:34:00 <ais523> "with an expiry time of 2 decades, 4 years, 4 hours, 19 minutes and 12 seconds"
17:34:08 <ais523> interesting definition of "24 years", MediaWiki
17:36:07 <ais523> it's always a little awkward as an admin when one person/IP you don't recognise starts vandalising and another cleans it up
17:36:13 <ais523> because it's so easy to block the wrong one by mistake
17:40:37 <ais523> hmm, do you mean \SOH? (just guessing, I don't know)
17:41:20 <Melvar> Looks like it filters it.
17:42:08 <Melvar> ais523: ↑ This needs a special-case when writing show.
17:42:29 <ais523> is \& a specific no-op escape sequence?
17:42:39 <Melvar> It is indeed an emptystring escape sequence.
17:43:22 <Melvar> To show where the escape sequence ends.
17:44:10 <Melvar> IIRC \SO is the only controlchar escape that is a prefix of another (\SOH).
17:44:13 <ais523> in order to deal with this sort of thing, Perl eventually entered a convention where escape sequences were of the form backslash, letter, then an almost arbitrary string surrounded by braces
17:44:49 <ais523> although reading about bugfixes in B::Deparse is always hilarious
17:45:08 <ais523> B::Deparse's purpose is to take what's basically an AST for a Perl program, and convert it back into Perl syntax
17:45:16 -!- password2_ has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
17:45:19 <ais523> and it's hugely difficult to make it roundtrip because Perl syntax has so many ambiguous cases
17:47:07 <Melvar> I am currently working on fixing a bug in parsers that adds yet another way to crash idris-bot.
17:49:16 <ais523> my research compiler can be crashed with a simple mockingbird :-(
17:49:30 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: r1 ~ r1 -> r
17:49:31 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include x :: r1 -> r (bound at <interactive>:1:2)
17:49:31 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘x’, namely ‘x’
17:49:41 <ais523> how do I express that request in Idris? I'm interested to see what idris-bot makes of it
17:50:21 <idris-bot> (input):1:13-14:Unifying argTy and argTy -> retTy would lead to infinite value
17:51:12 <ais523> I like that error message
17:51:27 <Melvar> It turns out the idris compiler does indeed do occurs checks. It also looks like they are the same for types and values.
17:51:28 <ais523> the problem I'm dealing with is that I'm working with a type system where a mockingbird actually has a type
17:51:31 <ais523> but a double mockingbird doesn't
17:52:40 <Melvar> ( :t \x : (a : Type) -> a -> Nat => x _ x
17:52:40 <idris-bot> \x => x ((a : Type) -> a -> Nat) x : ((a : Type) -> a -> Nat) -> Nat
17:53:00 <Melvar> ( :t \x : {a : Type} -> a -> Nat => x x
17:53:00 <idris-bot> (input):Incomplete term \x => x (([__]) -> Nat) (x ([__]))
17:53:25 <Melvar> Ah, yeah, it won’t work implicitly.
17:53:31 <ais523> (the type is "(('a -> 'b) + 'a) -> 'b", in whatever syntax you feel like; the language doesn't have a syntax for polymorphic types yet but my brain defaults to OCaml)
17:54:27 <Melvar> ( (\x : (a : Type) -> a -> Nat => x _ x) (\_ _ => 0)
17:54:27 <idris-bot> (input):1:44: error: expected: ",",
17:54:27 <idris-bot> (\x : (a : Type) -> a -> Nat => x _ x) (\_ _ => 0)<EOF>
17:54:37 <Melvar> ( (\x : (a : Type) -> a -> Nat => x _ x) (\_,_ => 0)
17:55:51 <ais523> "impossible" is a keyword?
17:55:55 <ais523> I assumed it was a function somehow
17:55:57 <Melvar> > :t \x -> x (x :: forall a. a -> t)
17:56:00 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:1: parse error on input ‘:’
17:56:07 <Melvar> @type \x -> x (x :: forall a. a -> t)
17:56:08 <ais523> although I was probably thinking of "absurd"
17:56:20 <Melvar> @type forall t. \x -> x (x :: forall a. a -> t)
17:56:22 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘forAll’ (imported from Lambdabot.Plugin.Haskell.Eval.Trusted)
17:57:01 <ais523> that's an interesting attempt
17:57:04 <Melvar> I can’t do an /\ in any version of surface syntax, can I?
17:57:15 <ais523> but I don't think you can express a mockingbird in System F either
17:57:25 <ais523> (System F = rank N types)
17:58:18 <Melvar> @type ((\x -> x x) :: forall t. (forall a. a -> t) -> t
17:58:19 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
17:58:21 <Melvar> @type ((\x -> x x) :: forall t. (forall a. a -> t) -> t)
17:58:28 -!- glowcoil has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:58:29 -!- mbrcknl has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
17:59:25 <Melvar> That’s about what I did there in Idris, but the types are implicit.
17:59:39 <ais523> now I'm trying to get my head around that type
17:59:40 <Melvar> > ((\x -> x x) :: forall t. (forall a. a -> t) -> t) (\_ _ -> 0)
17:59:44 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M8673672655092209319045’
17:59:58 <Melvar> > ((\x -> x x) :: forall t. (forall a. a -> t) -> t) (\_ _ -> 0 :: Integer)
18:00:01 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M56881207109249090619065’
18:00:08 <ais523> you're basically requiring that the function to be mockingbird'ed doesn't look at its argument, right?
18:00:31 <ais523> actually that fits in with my research pretty well
18:01:20 <int-e> > (\(x :: forall a. a -> t) -> x x) (\_ -> 0)
18:01:52 <Melvar> > ((\x -> x x) :: forall t. (forall a. a -> t) -> t) (\_ -> 0 :: Integer)
18:02:01 <Melvar> It was only in the idris one that the function was two-arg.
18:02:17 <int-e> oh type arguments... yay
18:02:45 <ais523> > let m = (((\x -> x x) :: forall t. (forall a. a -> t) -> t)) in m m
18:02:47 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘a’ with ‘forall a1. a1 -> t’
18:02:47 <lambdabot> ‘a’ is a rigid type variable bound by
18:02:47 <lambdabot> a type expected by the context: a -> t at <interactive>:1:65
18:03:08 <ais523> hmm, that error message is surprisingly reasonable given how insane the original program is
18:03:37 <int-e> SPJ actually cares about error messages
18:03:57 <ais523> so do I, but it's hard to produce good ones, because computers are very hard at working out why something is wrong
18:04:07 <int-e> SPJ is also smart *ducks*
18:04:10 <ais523> I like ayacc's error messages
18:04:33 <int-e> (and one of ghc's principal implementors)
18:04:54 <ais523> ../ayacc: warning: shift/reduce conflict on symbol DIVIDE at shift-reduce.y line 10
18:04:56 <ais523> ../ayacc: info: conflict is reached after, e.g., expr MINUS expr . DIVIDE
18:04:58 <ais523> ../ayacc: info: to resolve the conflict: specify a precedence for DIVIDE
18:05:20 <int-e> ah yes, such witnesses are helpful.
18:07:06 <b_jonas> _some_ compilers are. some stupid ones like MSVC are quite bad at it.
18:08:13 <b_jonas> I actually accidentally found a case where gcc produces an insane error message too, and reported it
18:08:33 <b_jonas> though at least it didn't segfault or anything
18:09:02 <Melvar> Now let me see if I can’t restrict that from Type to a universe …
18:09:19 <Melvar> I … probably can’t define that in the repl?
18:09:41 <ais523> int-e: I can't reliably produce witnesses for reduce/reduce conflicts; I try but they might be incorrect
18:09:53 <ais523> ../ayacc: warning: reduce/reduce conflict on symbol ID at reduce-reduce.y line 8
18:09:55 <ais523> ../ayacc: info: conflicting rule at reduce-reduce.y line 10
18:09:57 <ais523> ../ayacc: info: conflict is reached after something like: program '(' type ')' . ID
18:09:58 <ais523> thus the "something like"
18:10:08 <ais523> I think determining whether a grammar is ambiguous in general is undecidable, right?
18:10:11 <ais523> so ayacc has to come to a best guess
18:10:33 <ais523> (that example is a correct one, though, for the grammar I gave it)
18:10:46 <b_jonas> ais523: you don't have to determine if it's ambiguous, only if it's not LALR
18:11:24 <ais523> but if it's not LALR for LALR spuriousness reasons, it's impossible to come up with a good example
18:11:30 <ais523> because there isn't a single example that causes the problem
18:13:20 <Melvar> ( :let mutual data Uni : Type where NAT : Uni; PI : (t : Uni) -> (interp t -> Uni) -> Uni; interp : Uni -> Type; interp NAT = Nat; interp (PI t f) = (x : interp t) -> interp (f x)
18:13:20 <idris-bot> (input):1:119: error: expected: ":"
18:13:20 <idris-bot> < -> Uni; interp : Uni -> Type; interp NAT = Nat; interp (PI t f) = (x : inter>
18:13:29 <b_jonas> this is the bug where gcc gave an insane error message: https://gcc.gnu.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=58363
18:13:51 <Melvar> ( :let mutual data Uni : Type where { NAT : Uni; PI : (t : Uni) -> (interp t -> Uni) -> Uni }; interp : Uni -> Type; interp NAT = Nat; interp (PI t f) = (x : interp t) -> interp (f x)
18:13:51 <idris-bot> <t : Uni) -> (interp t -> Uni) -> Uni }; interp : Uni -> Type; interp NAT = Na>
18:13:51 <ais523> b_jonas: I had problems with clang producing warnings in unused halves of a _Generic
18:14:15 <ais523> technically the unused parts of a _Generic have to be parsed and have to be valid C code, so I can understand why it ran the warning checker on them
18:14:21 <ais523> but as they're provably dead code, I'd hope it wouldn't display the warnings
18:14:37 <b_jonas> ais523: well, it probably depends on what kind of warnings
18:14:37 -!- glowcoil has joined.
18:14:45 <b_jonas> ais523: some warnings should be produced there too, some shouldn't
18:15:11 <b_jonas> ais523: specifically the warnings that could cause errors even if parsed as dead code on other systems or settings
18:15:14 <ais523> b_jonas: type mismatches, especially :-)
18:15:20 <ais523> (given what _Generic's purpose is)
18:15:35 <Melvar> ( :let mutual { data Uni : Type where { NAT : Uni; PI : (t : Uni) -> (interp t -> Uni) -> Uni }; interp : Uni -> Type; interp NAT = Nat; interp (PI t f) = (x : interp t) -> interp (f x) }
18:15:35 <idris-bot> (input):1:94: error: expected: declaration,
18:15:35 <idris-bot> <t : Uni) -> (interp t -> Uni) -> Uni }; interp : Uni -> Type; interp NAT = Na>
18:15:42 <ais523> it's almost impossible to use _Generic for anything but different types of float atm
18:15:45 <b_jonas> ais523: have you reported it?
18:15:49 <Melvar> Yeah, no. Can’t do it here apparently.
18:16:01 <ais523> given that it's a feature new enough that it isn't in gcc yet
18:16:06 <ais523> I'm going to wait a while to see how it evolves
18:16:15 <ais523> also my intended use of it was insane
18:16:17 <b_jonas> ais523: exactly, that's why few people are testing it, so they need the feedback from early testers
18:16:26 <ais523> which is the real reason
18:16:29 <ais523> (like, #esoteric levels of insane)
18:16:35 <b_jonas> insane use is no problem, that's how compiler bugs get discovered
18:16:56 <b_jonas> they show up in insane uses, and it's hard to tell without debugging them whether they are connected to a bug that could cause problems in sane code too
18:17:11 <b_jonas> possibly less obvious miscompiles for then
18:17:53 <b_jonas> this particular case I reported wasn't like that, it came from a simplified case of sane code modulo a typo
18:18:09 <b_jonas> but I have reported bugs in perl core from insane esoteric uses
18:18:33 <Melvar> “cannot convert ‘f.#‘var_decl’ not supported by dump_type#<type error>::~’ (type ‘void’) to type ‘int’” – Magnificent.
18:19:01 <b_jonas> (then I even recalled one that I later figured out was not a bug, then it came up a few years later in another ticket and the regex engine people wasn't sure what the correct behaviour should be actually, so I don't know if it's a bug or not.)
18:19:40 <b_jonas> Melvar: yes. they fixed it to less insane, but still not very helpful
18:19:49 <ais523> b_jonas: anyway I think clang's behaviour might have been justified by the standard
18:19:52 <ais523> it's just annoying as a user
18:22:56 <Melvar> b_jonas: When that sort of thing happens in idris, which it has, you usually get a standard “inexhaustive case” exception instead of output.
18:24:51 <b_jonas> Melvar: here I did write in the ticket what the sane error message would be imo
18:25:05 <ais523> b_jonas: did you come across this by accident, btw?
18:25:19 <b_jonas> ais523: it was obviously not a clean short case like this
18:25:52 <b_jonas> and I omitted the parenthesis by accident
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18:28:20 <b_jonas> but I was deliberately trying to invoke an explicit destructor call for a scalar type in template context
18:31:35 <ais523> C++ has scalar context? I thought that was a Perl thing
18:31:49 <b_jonas> ais523: not scalar context
18:32:47 <b_jonas> ais523: scalar type, which means something like a type that's one of: pointer, bool, integer, floating point, nullptr_t, pointer to member, and maybe a few more; but definitely not class or union types
18:34:24 <b_jonas> it's basically object types for which it's not even a question that they are trivial (trivially copyable), you can't override operators on them, and are usually uninitialized unless you specifically initialize them
18:35:01 <b_jonas> http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/types/is_scalar has an informal but precise definition, the standard has a formal definition
18:35:55 <b_jonas> this is something that isn't too useful in C, only in C++, because in C, all types are always trivial, and you can't override operators or define special member functions on any type
18:43:29 <b_jonas> hmm… when I work with perl, I should test if https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=29720 bug is still present. it's an annoying bug
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18:44:47 <b_jonas> ais523: perlio was very buggy back then, and is still somewhat buggy
18:45:09 <ais523> well, there was this bug in aimake where if you try to set a :unix PerlIO layer using binmode
18:45:30 <ais523> here: https://rt.perl.org/rt3/Public/Bug/Display.html?id=118957
18:45:52 <ais523> admittedly binmode ":unix" doesn't actually make any sense, semantically
18:49:07 <b_jonas> ais523: and there's https://rt.perl.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=34595 which is another very old perlio bug I reported
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20:02:57 <oren> linked lists are BS. They are apparently much, much slower than simply using an array and moving all the elements to make room for an insertion.
20:03:42 <oren> maybe something to do with memory locality?
20:03:43 <shachaf> Anyway they support sharing!
20:05:20 <mroman_> oren: arrays can totally fit neatly into cache lines
20:05:33 <mroman_> chasing pointers that point to various location of RAM isn't very nice
20:05:45 <mroman_> because then the CPU is constantly doing cache loads and cache writebacks
20:06:24 <mroman_> you can always have a data structure that chains arrays to gether
20:06:34 <mroman_> Which means you don't have to realloc
20:06:51 <oren> yeah. that's what I suspect was happening. I just got a massive speed boost by using a big array (1MB) of enemies instead of a linked list.
20:07:07 <oren> this despite that I sort it every frame
20:08:31 <oren> (before that wasn't necessary, I put the enemy at the righ place according to its Z, but with the array, I just tack it to the end, and sort it)
20:09:20 <oren> which should be horribly inefficient, but apparently not as inefficient as a linked lis
20:11:41 <oren> so fuck it. vector<Enemy>
20:12:26 <oren> actually, IS vector always a continuous array?
20:12:32 <mroman_> sorting a linked list sucks anyway
20:13:04 <mroman_> vector should be a growing array
20:13:33 <oren> I often write in a restricted
20:14:03 <oren> c++ dialect that only uses what I consider to be the non-broken parts of C++
20:14:09 <Jafet> Yes, I do believe that quicksort is generally faster than insertion sort
20:14:55 <oren> no, I only need to sort it when an enemy changes z (only bosses) or appears
20:15:33 <oren> but I sort it every frame anyway because then I don't have to detect when it is necessary
20:16:08 <oren> what is quicksort's time complexity on an already sorted array?
20:16:23 <ais523> oren: depends on how you choose the pivot
20:16:36 <mroman_> but that depends on the pivot
20:16:39 <ais523> it's O(n log n) if you take the middle element, O(n^2) if you take the first element
20:17:07 <ais523> there's a guaranteed O(n log n) version of quicksort which takes the median element as the pivot; you can calculate the median in O(n)
20:17:18 <ais523> but nobody does it because the O(n) median calculation has a pretty slow constant factor
20:17:48 <mroman_> oh wait. I forgot an n there
20:18:13 <mroman_> oren: It's quicksorts worst case of O(n^2) why there are "better" algorithms available
20:19:17 <oren> if it gets slower later, I'll make a flag for changed Z
20:20:51 <oren> with the linked list, I had a "clever" function where you call it on the node that changed Z and it removes it and puts it in the right place
20:21:21 <ais523> mroman_: quicksort does have quite a good constant factor though
20:21:23 <Jafet> If you know which k items have changed places, you can re-sort the array in O(n log k) time
20:23:19 <ais523> if you know that the list is almost sorted already, you can sort it in O(nk) time, where k is the number of items added/moved/changed, even without knowing which items they are
20:23:31 <ais523> many sort algorithms nowadays have algorithms which naturally fall into that as a best case
20:23:39 <oren> Jafet: wow. log k? k is unlikely to be higher than 2 in this case
20:26:33 <oren> (it is a top-down shooter where you can also drop bombs on enemies below you)
20:27:18 <oren> enemies rarely move vertically, many enemies are ground troops or naval vessels
20:28:06 <Jafet> (Put those items into a heap, then pass the remaining items through the heap.)
20:28:11 <oren> bullets, on the other hand, move vertically a lot, but I just draw them aboce everything else because I'm lazy
20:29:08 <fizzie> Even many standard sorts in languages' libraries tend to be the kind that they're good for almost-sorted arrays.
20:29:54 <fizzie> I think TimSort falls into that bucket (no pun about bucketsort intended), and it's the default in at least Python and Java[*]. ([*] not entirely true)
20:30:12 <int-e> . o O ( the buggy one? )
20:30:35 <Jafet> Actually if k is small, it can be done in O(n + k log n) just by binary search.
20:33:38 <int-e> "binary search" ... I thought one some sort of heap for this purpose...
20:33:46 <int-e> s/one some/one uses some/
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20:34:32 <Jafet> Not really, it's the step that merges lists of lengths k and n-k.
20:35:22 <int-e> ah sorry. I shouldn't try to deduce the problem from the given complexity
20:36:03 <int-e> (O(n + k log n) is also the complexity for finding the smallest k elements of an unsorted list)
20:37:17 <Jafet> Guess the Algorithm, an exciting new game show
20:37:34 <int-e> For the merging thing, you can also do O(n + k log k) by first sorting and then merging two sorted lists.
20:47:25 <Melvar> < ais523> there's a guaranteed O(n log n) version of quicksort which takes the median element as the pivot; you can calculate the median in O(n) – IIRC there’s a thing where one uses the median of only the first, middle, and last elements.
20:47:36 <ais523> Melvar: that's still O(n^2) worst case
20:47:45 <Jafet> Hmm, here's a fun one: O(2^(11.98 \sqrt k) k + n^3)
20:48:11 <ais523> that's a terrible asymptotic performance :-)
20:48:17 <Melvar> Yes, IIRC it’s just better for a few common cases than a fixed pivot.
20:48:50 <Taneb> Hmm, if the list is already sorted you can find the median quite quickly
20:49:58 <Jafet> (It's clear that it's for a planar version of a parameterized NP-complete problem, due to the sqrt(k) in the exponent, but the complexity doesn't tell you anything more)
20:55:10 <b_jonas> yes, there is such a variant, but it's really not worth because it's complicated to implement, needs a lot of extra memory, and probably slower than other sorts
20:55:58 <b_jonas> I for one these days recommend a well-implemented merge sort for most purposes, but I admit there's no one sort algorithm that's always the best
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21:09:58 <zzo38> Linked lists are sometimes useful such as if you want to store them as nodes in a graph (or cons cells), but you could convert into a proper list when reading them in. But even SQL is only order by the ORDER BY so you still need some column to sort by, and this make it difficult to insert one in between unless you use a linked list (and then use a WITH command to convert into a proper list).
21:11:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, unless of course you implement a full balanced tree as a layer over sql, possibly in triggers
21:12:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: mind you, if you just want to traverse a single linked list, that's rather easy with a WITH RECURSIVE ... SELECT query, but the problem is, you can't easily nest those queries
21:12:49 <b_jonas> I think WITH RECURSIVE is allowed only at top level, not in a subquery or view, but let me check this
21:19:50 <Jafet> Oh, here's another good one: O(n α*(n)), where α*(n) is the iterated (!) inverse Ackermann function.
21:20:28 <ais523> Jafet: I assume the Ackermann function is involved in the algo somehow?
21:22:12 <Jafet> Usually, you invent a variation of the Ackermann function that fits the shape of the data structure. Although this is a different function, α grows so slowly that it doesn't matter which α you use, so you can just use the "standard" one.
21:22:26 <Taneb> I still would like to know how Kruskal's algorithm ends up O(n α(n))
21:22:43 <Jafet> It uses the union-find data structure as a component, which is O(n α(n))
21:22:57 <Taneb> Jafet, that doesn't help my thinking
21:23:11 <Taneb> Why is union find O(α(n))?
21:24:23 <Jafet> You mean as a philosophical question -- why is the optimal algorithm O(α(n))? I don't know.
21:25:07 <Melvar> Is there a standard function like many but with a limit as to how many?
21:25:26 <Taneb> Jafet, no, I don't know the proof
21:25:49 <Jafet> I've looked at the original proof by Tarjan, but it's very complicated
21:26:41 <b_jonas> ais523: no, ackermann isn't involved
21:26:59 <b_jonas> ais523: that's just what falls out somehow from an optimized incremental unification algorithm
21:27:11 <b_jonas> ais523: you can read the details in the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book
21:27:27 <b_jonas> the proof is complicated and probably irrelevant in practice
21:28:18 <b_jonas> not in Knuth yet because it's volume 4 material
21:28:49 <Melvar> @hoogle (Alternative f) => Int -> f a -> f [a]
21:28:50 <Jafet> The basic idea is simple enough; these data structures are very flat, so their width can be bounded by a fast-growing recursive function
21:28:50 <lambdabot> Control.Monad replicateM :: Monad m => Int -> m a -> m [a]
21:28:50 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Gen vectorOf :: Int -> Gen a -> Gen [a]
21:28:50 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck vectorOf :: Int -> Gen a -> Gen [a]
21:29:18 <Jafet> Melvar: would fmap (take n) work?
21:30:05 <Melvar> Jafet: It would not. I want it for a parser, where it must consume no extra from the input stream so it can fail if there’s more.
21:30:30 <Melvar> It’s trivial to write myself, of course, but it seems like something that would exist.
21:31:25 <b_jonas> this is sort of well-known because the algorithm is easy to implement and easy to understand, though proving that time limit is complicated, proving a saner time limit is easy.
21:31:45 <Melvar> As in, “atMost n p <* notFollowedBy p”.
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21:33:23 <Jafet> Oh, you want it to fail if there are too many
21:34:52 <Jafet> (er, allow failing)
21:35:29 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think at least in SQLite, WITH RECURSIVE is allowed in other places too; the only restriction is that statements inside of a trigger program are not allowed to start with the WITH keyword (but it is allowed in other parts of those statements).
21:35:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: the docs say WITH RECURSIVE isn't allowed in subqueries
21:36:01 <b_jonas> but maybe I'm reading it wrong
21:36:36 <Jafet> Parsec's combinators can be incomplete in unexpected ways; I've had to rewrite a combinator because the default had the wrong strictness behaviour
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21:38:03 <zzo38> (For example, the data to insert can be specified with a WITH clause, and the FROM of a SELECT statement can have WITH in it, and so on)
21:38:25 <Melvar> Jafet: Well, this is potentially a generic Alternative thing, and also I’m working with parsers, not parsec specifically.
21:40:04 <zzo38> WITH RECURSIVE is allowed in scalar subqueries, FROM clauses, views, etc. (I have tested this.)
21:40:40 <zzo38> (Although in SQLite, the RECURSIVE keyword is optional after the WITH keyword and has no effect.)
21:44:11 <b_jonas> zzo38: hmm, let me see again what the docs say
21:44:37 <zzo38> The documentation for SQLite says: "The WITH clause must appear at the beginning of a top-level SELECT statement or at the beginning of a subquery. The WITH clause cannot be prepended to the second or subsequent SELECT statement of a compound select." That is, it cannot be included directly after a UNION, UNION ALL, INTERSECT, or EXCEPT.
21:44:47 <zzo38> It is allowed in subqueries.
21:45:34 <b_jonas> and http://sqlite.org/lang_select.html also says that
21:45:38 <zzo38> It also says "The WITH clause cannot be used within a CREATE TRIGGER." which is only partially true.
21:46:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: http://sqlite.org/lang_select.html tells that differently
21:46:16 <b_jonas> 'A VALUES clause can be the first element in a compound SELECT that uses a WITH clause, but a simple SELECT that consists of just a VALUES clause cannot be preceded by a WITH clause.;
21:47:23 <b_jonas> ok, in that case you can traverse a linked list or even tree in a subquery or view
21:51:22 <zzo38> There doesn't seem to be much reason to precede a simple SELECT that consists of just a VALUES clause by a WITH clause anyways. Nevertheless, it isn't true (in SQLite); I have tried it and it accepts it anyways.
21:53:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe that changed when they improved VALUES
21:54:20 <b_jonas> does anyone use unreferenced labels in C or C++ as sort of documentation, so you can refer to those labels from comment or other text? I've done that in perl, but not (yet) in C or C++.
21:54:59 <b_jonas> though apparently in some settings gcc warns about such labels
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21:56:58 <zzo38> I have not done it
21:57:37 <zzo38> For some sort of documentation I can just use a comment
22:00:55 <b_jonas> sure, you can certainly use comments too
22:02:50 <zzo38> If you are using CWEB or something like that, then it might help a bit more since then they will be indexed and the cross-references (including those in comments) will also be indexed. (However, it also allow you to just add index entries by yourself too)
22:04:54 <b_jonas> lol, I'm reading my own old bug ticket entries a
22:05:44 <b_jonas> I wrote "Fixed in patch <patchnumber>. Closing this ticket." then in the next message, "I said, closing this ticket. Close it already, rt."
22:05:50 <b_jonas> then someone else closed it
22:27:33 -!- Lyka|Away has changed nick to Lyka.
22:30:56 <Lyka> update on 4FK: i think Revision 0006e's Core Set is pretty close to finished
22:31:36 <Lyka> aka v0.1-alpha0006e
22:32:49 <Lyka> though, as it has to work with Cuddlefish's TFT and Touch libraries...
22:33:26 <Lyka> i home the extension coding i wrote is sufficient
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22:37:08 <Lyka> touch is easy, except for the little part about it being a QVGA screen, and 320 is bigger than 256
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22:58:22 <Sgeo> So, the intended viewer for CYbertown VRML files has an export option, and suddenly other things can read the (exported) files a LOT better
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23:34:19 <HackEgo> codensity is just mass per volume with all the arrows reversed.
23:34:35 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/c/C/' wisdom/codensity
23:37:13 <oerjan> `learn Who cares about ancient cases anyway?
23:37:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'who': Who cares about ancient cases anyway?
23:39:20 <oerjan> `learn Infinitives are atomic verbs. They were first split in the 1940s, and the world hasn't looked back since.
23:39:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'infinitive': Infinitives are atomic verbs. They were first split in the 1940s, and the world hasn't looked back since.
23:39:51 <oerjan> `le/rn recursive/See: recursion
23:40:03 <HackEgo> You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
23:41:48 <oerjan> bohily. i seem to have been making a lot of work for you lately.
23:42:19 <boily> yeah. my shameful self is cumulating dishonorable lateness.
23:42:46 <boily> I think I'm just going to temporarily excise the greek parts and add in everything else.
23:43:15 <oerjan> wait are the greek parts preventing you from adding the rest
23:44:40 <boily> compilation problems last time I checked.
23:44:54 * boily verifies if it still refuses to generate...
23:45:18 <boily> oh well. time for an overdue update!
23:45:36 <HackEgo> Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff diff repository (or selected files) \ ex
23:45:47 <boily> what was the wisdomurl again...
23:46:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: repo: not found
23:46:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:46:45 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/joey20050224016an.jpg <--- My sister growing up
23:47:57 * boily isn't surprised to see one more non-human in the chännel
23:48:14 * boily lightly mapoles Lyka for xenobiological research purposes
23:48:22 * oerjan rerecords Lyka's species
23:48:40 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/Penguin.jpg
23:49:57 <oerjan> i am having a bit difficulty separating friends and furniture, there
23:50:50 <boily> Lyka: that looks like my chair.
23:51:14 <boily> (and the floor is strangely similar.)
23:53:25 <Lyka> sitting on the chair and behind the chair
23:54:32 <Lyka> you see who is behind the chair, right?
23:56:21 <zzo38> You didn't add that one yet
23:57:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43171&oldid=43162 * 75.167.89.115 * (-1) This is Imaginer1 logged out for some reason and wondering why I wrote '2^5' instead of '32' there.
00:00:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitoven]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43172 * Imaginer1 * (+126) Created page with "This page hasn't been categorized yet and supposedly moderators are supposed to be the ones in charge of this. Any help, guys?"
00:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43173&oldid=43172 * Imaginer1 * (+25)
00:00:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43174&oldid=43173 * Imaginer1 * (+11)
00:00:59 -!- Nihilumbra has joined.
00:01:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43175&oldid=43174 * Imaginer1 * (+0)
00:04:06 <boily> why are you codigesting so?
00:04:55 <oerjan> well what do you expect when you don't cook your food properly duh
00:05:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43176&oldid=43169 * Imaginer1 * (+0) Made a minor correction
00:05:29 <Lyka> i only eat veggie sushi
00:05:47 * oerjan afahk has never had proper sushi.
00:06:03 <zzo38> I prefer the sushi without the stuff inside, so, it is empty sushi
00:06:09 <Lyka> i mean, when i eat sushi, it is only veggie
00:06:29 <Lyka> sweet potato roll is my fave
00:06:44 * oerjan leaves this discussion to shachaf
00:06:58 <Nihilumbra> Oh lyka what was that octopus thing you were going to show
00:07:35 <boily> I like sashimi. surf clam and oil fish are some readily available favourites.
00:08:34 <Lyka> oh, i gave a certain arduino the name "octopus" when i had 8 wwires sticking out
00:09:23 <Lyka> 4FK Octopus referres to it running on that device
00:10:31 <boily> fried tempura? as in, you take some tempura, cover it in tempura batter, and fry it?
00:10:47 <Nihilumbra> Macho man randy savage killed Jesus and stopped the rapture
00:10:54 <boily> oerjan: do you remember how to type in a → in LaTeX?
00:11:31 <Lyka> the reference for 4FK-CORE is an arduino leonardo + an ethernet/sd shield (ethernet support isn't part of core)
00:12:01 <Lyka> Called that calamari cause i caled the other one octopus
00:12:07 <boily> Nihilumbra: no, it's typesetting software. some people here like to give me a headache with it.
00:12:35 <boily> . o O ( oh yeah baby, align that float... such a fine \caption you have there... )
00:12:38 <zzo38> Plain TeX is a better typesetting software
00:12:49 <ais523> I used that one a lot in my thesis
00:13:02 <ais523> (not sure if there's a textmode version but mathmode is what I needed anyway, and it's not like it's hard to toggle)
00:13:39 <boily> ais523: meanwhile, I just discovered the sudden benefits of YCM in vim.
00:13:53 <boily> holy glorious mother of fungot. it autocompletes everything.
00:13:53 <fungot> boily: i also believe that it leads to nothing but mistakes are only costly with the emacs equivalent of word macros. awk scripts are becoming gawk scripts. etc etc etc
00:14:16 <Nihilumbra> something that auto completes?? everything???
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00:15:11 <boily> Nihilumbra: it aucocompletes. smartly. and not only prefixes; as long as the substring exists, it autocompletes.
00:15:24 <Lyka> Cuddlefish is the arduino mega + tft touch lcd
00:17:49 <boily> mroman_: are you the one who added that chuchichäschtli, or was it int-e?
00:19:37 <oerjan> so mroman_ is the obvious suspect
00:19:46 <HackEgo> chuchichäschtli is spoken as ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli
00:21:32 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/as \(.*\)/as [\1]/' wisdom/chuchichäschtli
00:21:39 <HackEgo> chuchichäschtli is spoken as [ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli]
00:27:04 <boily> oerjan: imported TIPA, read the docs, it worked. on to the next missing entry!
00:32:33 <oerjan> <Taneb> I think I can make poutine in York relatively easily <-- isn't that cheese stuff sort of rare outside canada, or something?
00:32:56 <nys> cheese curds?
00:34:18 <oerjan> "Cheese curds in cuisine, or cooking, are the solid parts of soured milk either eaten alone or used in various regional dishes, mostly in eastern Canada and the northeastern and midwestern United States."
00:34:46 <boily> http://www.fromagesbergeron.com/fromages/7/brins-de-gouda/ ← best curds out there hth
00:39:28 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, he's in england, i'm sure you can buy any dairy product known to man with a moderate amount of effort
00:40:31 <oerjan> hm when you put it like that...
00:41:31 <boily> strange. I expected something about zzo38 in the gopher entry...
00:41:42 <zzo38> Then add another sentence if you want to
00:41:47 <HackEgo> Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2.
00:41:58 <zzo38> There look like only one sentence currently
00:43:36 <boily> now, who is the [explétif] that added haiku.
00:43:45 <boily> (AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH)
00:43:47 <ais523> boily: when you censor yourself, you do so in French?
00:44:03 <boily> ais523: it flows more naturally hth
00:44:17 <HackEgo> [U+1F028 MAHJONG TILE AUTUMN] [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+26C4 SNOWMAN WITHOUT SNOW]
00:44:50 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: it's a haiku made out of unicode character names
00:44:57 <ais523> huh, that's the first astral planes character that I've seen render correctly in this client
00:45:10 <boily> I only see the first two in this one client here.
00:45:27 <ais523> what's the significance of the hiragana letter ya?
00:45:49 <oerjan> ais523: it has 7 syllables hth
00:45:50 <ais523> I can see trying to make a snowman during autumn, but having to substitute something else for the snow because there isn't any snow
00:45:54 <ais523> something quite profound there
00:46:04 -!- staffehn_ has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
00:46:05 <ais523> whereas, the hiragana letter seems to have been thrown in just for syllable count
00:46:13 <boily> it's a ya. やとヤと色々の文字がある。
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00:47:07 <oerjan> "There is a variety of characters and Yatoya."
00:47:15 <ais523> boily: I'm going to assume that the Japanese text there is Japanese for "hth"
00:47:55 <boily> oerjan: I should've quoted the ya and the other ya hth
00:48:39 * oerjan keeps being slightly annoyed that google's front page app menu pushes g. translate just off the first page so you have to click an extra time to get to it
00:49:23 <oerjan> boily: that does not help me translate it
00:50:04 <HackEgo> [U+3084 HIRAGANA LETTER YA] [U+3068 HIRAGANA LETTER TO] [U+30E4 KATAKANA LETTER YA]
00:51:11 <ais523> oerjan: wait, people use Google Translate without typing in the URL directly (or using a browser/feature extension)?
00:51:42 <ais523> also, you can probably get to Google Translate from the front page of Google the same way you can get anywhere else from the front page of Google
00:52:02 <oren> I usually use wiktionary
00:52:26 <oerjan> ais523: hm when you put it like that typing the url and autocompleting might be faster
00:52:37 <oerjan> oren: wiktionary for whole sentences?
00:52:46 <oren> r my actual paper dictionary (because it has radical-stroke lookup which wiktionary hasn't)
00:52:58 <ais523> does the "I'm feeling lucky" button still exist?
00:53:22 <boily> there. I contourné the problem by composing a haiku.
00:53:22 <oren> oerjan: I know japanese grammar, but often I don't know words hh
00:53:26 <oerjan> oren: wiktionary sort of requires you to have an idea of how the rest of the language works tdnh
00:53:39 <boily> (btw, what's "contourner" in English? I'm drawing a blank here.)
00:54:29 * oerjan remembered he had gt open
00:54:48 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
00:55:08 <zzo38> "Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. And also zzo38." Is that a better way? Probably not, the second sentence isn't very good.
00:55:26 <oren> 秋や雪だるま autumn and snowman, and possibly something else.
00:55:32 <oerjan> ais523: back when the GT link actually showed up directly on the google frontpage, that was clearly the easiest way (since i always have the frontpage open)
00:55:34 <ais523> that sentence got me trying to imagine what the successor of zzo38 would be like
00:55:52 <ais523> presumably that's not the way it was meant to be parsed
00:56:11 <oerjan> ais523: but you have to admit it's very zzo38
00:56:28 <zzo38> ais523: I know it isn't how it meant to be parsed that's why I said it isn't very good
00:56:54 <ais523> "Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first."
00:56:59 <oren> And also zzo38's?
00:57:19 <shachaf> oerjan: i've heard that norwegian sushi is among the best hth
00:57:40 <ais523> oren: that would disambiguate, yes
00:58:12 <oerjan> <ais523> does the "I'm feeling lucky" button still exist? <-- yes
01:01:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i wouldn't know hth
01:01:13 <oerjan> (although we have all that salmon)
01:01:27 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: what's with the norwegian
01:02:13 <boily> what's a tvilling?
01:02:32 <zzo38> `learn Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first.
01:02:33 <oren> is it a norwegian gerund?
01:02:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'gopher': Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first.
01:03:02 <zzo38> At least this is better than how it was before. (Whether or not it is even more better than that, I don't know.)
01:03:31 <HackEgo> A card game where you win if you collect *all* of the tropes.
01:05:40 <oerjan> boily: it's a twin hth
01:06:08 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: also gemini is tvillingene if you mean the astrological sign
01:06:15 <oerjan> (it's plural definite)
01:06:42 * boily disambiguately mapoles oren
01:06:56 <oren> trying out a font
01:07:45 <oren> Nanum Gothic Coding is a good font
01:07:49 <zzo38> Do you think either one must be silenced?
01:08:01 <zzo38> It doesn't look to me?
01:08:04 <oerjan> <oren> is it a norwegian gerund? <-- i'm not sure norwegian has gerunds, really, we tend to use the infinitive where english uses it. although we do have a cognate verbal noun used for word building, like in german.
01:08:35 <zzo38> `? how to stand on the ceiling
01:08:36 <HackEgo> how to stand on the ceiling? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:09:15 <ais523> `? isn't really a general question-answering tool
01:09:16 <HackEgo> isn't really a general question-answering tool? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:09:20 <oren> use suction cups on your feet
01:09:33 <ais523> nah, the trick is to be on top of the ceiling
01:09:37 <ais523> so you can stand on it the normal way
01:09:58 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: neither the t nor the v is silent
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01:10:37 <oerjan> in fact tvillingene doesn't really have any silent letters, although ll is a single lengthened sound and ng is a single velar nasal
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01:11:08 <oerjan> (basically the same sounds as usually in english)
01:11:30 <oerjan> s/basically/more or less/
01:11:41 <oerjan> i'm sure the ll is not entirely identical
01:11:51 <oren> interesting... I don't actually find i hard to pronounce a v after a t
01:13:21 <Nihilumbra> and im starting to think I have atrophy in my hands
01:13:24 <boily> Nihilumbra: beware. you're treading on dangerous paths here. next thing you know, you'll be eating lutefisk.
01:13:58 <oren> Eh, it's not hard at all. try with potato chips first
01:14:08 <boily> are you using three or four fingers?
01:14:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43177&oldid=43175 * Ais523 * (+580) explain the categories rule
01:14:48 <zzo38> But using your feet would be cheating.
01:15:23 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkLMZF8Ufhg
01:16:31 <ais523> oerjan: are you talking about the english ll or the welsh ll? they're entirely different sounds
01:16:41 <ais523> the welsh one can be sort-of approximated as "chl" but not really
01:16:48 <Nihilumbra> my grandfather is Japanese and he's coming over with his family because my sister is having a wedding so i don't want to look dumb
01:16:54 <zzo38> I don't know very good Welsh speaking
01:18:58 <boily> my grip looks more like http://www.tastyislandhawaii.com/images/chopsticks_hold_ind5.jpg
01:19:07 <boily> (left handed and all.)
01:20:43 <oren> hold on I'll take a picture
01:21:23 <FireFly> ais523: the norwegian ll would be the same as the english ll as far as I know
01:21:45 <ais523> so basically just an "l" that removes the remote control ability of vowels
01:21:46 <FireFly> i.e. just a lengthened l sound
01:22:51 <FireFly> I didn't realise until now, reading the scrollback, that "tv" could be uncommon/unusual
01:23:07 <oerjan> ais523: i am certainly not talking about actual welsh celtic language. however there _is_ a difference, but english varies a lot in this.
01:23:29 <HackEgo> 1227) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1228) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
01:23:33 <ais523> "tv" is fine in English if they're in two separate sulllables :P
01:23:38 <boily> oh fungot. there are quotes.
01:23:42 <ais523> both in the same syllable is very unusual
01:23:56 <ais523> fungot's not babbling? or has boily hit the babble limit?
01:24:11 <boily> oren: you'll be in the PDF soon! hurrah! hurray!
01:24:18 <oerjan> basically, the ll in tvillingene is not velarized (i was going to say norwegian l never is, but i'm not sure after back vowels)
01:24:51 <oerjan> while l tends to be velarized in american english, and _sometimes_ in RP, and otherwise varies all over the place.
01:25:30 <oerjan> if you're from wales, your _english_ ll might very well be close to the norwegian one.
01:25:46 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Sonorants
01:26:20 <fungot> ais523: does ror use some kind of supercoder
01:26:20 <fungot> FireFly: but the people who get annoyed) l) is different from what i've seen in my 30 years on it
01:26:20 <fungot> Nihilumbra: like in a play... hmm... fnord looks neato. what else is an awesome idea.
01:26:20 <fungot> boily: _i_ am not complaining) ' concurrency.'
01:26:30 <oerjan> if i'm reading the RP entry correctly, it would also be velarized in -illi-
01:26:31 <ais523> oh, it's just beings low
01:26:47 <ais523> what does "velarized" mean?
01:27:07 <oren> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BxcXE11iO1QiT2xURDVxSjNIeGtDYlZLNzFYYVBoVEowTThN/view?usp=sharing
01:27:26 <oren> That is me holding an sd card up using two pencils
01:28:45 <oerjan> `learn Amiga is spanish for a female friend.
01:28:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'amiga': Amiga is spanish for a female friend.
01:28:56 <oerjan> `learn Amiga is Spanish for a female friend.
01:28:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'amiga': Amiga is Spanish for a female friend.
01:29:41 <FireFly> I couldn't find an example of no:tvillingene, but here's sv:tvillingarna: http://www.forvo.com/word/tvillingarna/#sv (apparently by a swiss person, but it sounds correct to me)
01:30:42 <boily> Nihilumbra: there are only two orens. oren and orin. hth.
01:31:06 <oren> er, no, 22 now
01:31:18 <oerjan> <FireFly> ais523: the norwegian ll would be the same as the english ll as far as I know <-- i can _clearly_ hear the difference between the ll in no:tvilling and the ll in en:sillier the way i pronounce them, of course i'm not an authority on the latter.
01:31:35 <Nihilumbra> I can tell from muscle structure most of the time but there was a lot of light
01:31:42 <ais523> huh, my brain's parser is a little broken
01:31:48 <ais523> I see a line that pings me and has a ← in
01:31:51 <ais523> and assume I'm being quoted
01:32:43 <boily> ↑ you are ais523. htp.
01:32:53 <HackEgo> \ Piet is a really colorful programming language.
01:33:21 <HackEgo> INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
01:34:37 <FireFly> oerjan: what about en:full?
01:35:52 <Nihilumbra> I'm just accidentally spinning food around with these sticks
01:36:08 <FireFly> The ll in en:full sounds similar to the one in sv:tvillingarna when I pronounce them, but I certainly don't trust my english pronounciation to follow either RP or US pronounciation
01:36:16 <oerjan> <Nihilumbra> how do you pronounce Ingene though <-- [iŋenə] i think
01:36:26 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
01:37:18 <Nihilumbra> Also that n doesn't exist in Irish linguistics so idk what you are trying for
01:38:15 <oerjan> <ais523> what does "velarized" mean? <-- it's somewhat mysterious to me too, apparently there's some lifting of the back of the tongue added to some consonants. but "l" is the only one i can distinguish sort of reliably.
01:38:40 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velarization
01:38:51 <ais523> oerjan: hmm, I can pronounce two different audibly consonants by moving my tongue like that, but one of them isn't really an l
01:40:47 <FireFly> Nihilumbra: do you mean ŋ? that's the "ng" in e.g. "thing"
01:41:31 <Nihilumbra> I was confused as to what oerjan was saying
01:41:38 <oerjan> FireFly: i _think_ swedish and norwegian l are both "clear" (i.e. nonvelarized) in general. it sounded clear on that link you gave, anyway.
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01:43:07 <FireFly> I don't know if we have velarized l at all
01:43:46 <FireFly> Oh, apparently the ll in sv:allt according to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_lateral_approximant#Dental_or_denti-alveolar_2
01:44:15 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alveolar_lateral_approximant#Dental_or_denti-alveolar
01:45:06 <FireFly> I can't tell if I pronounce that differently or not
01:45:21 <oerjan> FireFly: i pronounce en:full velarized too. i think i basically always do that to english l.
01:45:33 <oerjan> FireFly: iow, like an american afaiu
01:46:56 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: ŋ is the same sound as english writes ng (but _not_ with the g pronounced like in "finger")
01:48:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43178&oldid=43176 * 75.167.89.115 * (+114) added some categories (Imaginer1)
01:50:11 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: like ng in english "sing"
01:50:36 <Nihilumbra> fing and sing are the same sound oerjan
01:51:00 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: it's common for "finger" to have the g pronounced as well in english
01:51:12 <oerjan> but not in "singer" i _think_
01:51:42 <oerjan> i'm not very sure about this.
01:52:08 <Nihilumbra> there's isn't an English word that I know of that has ing in it that doesn't have the g clearly pronounced
01:52:14 <oerjan> but there should be _no_ hard g sound in ng when pronounced in norwegian.
01:53:00 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: i am skeptical, but there are all kinds of english dialect. note that when i say hard g i _don't_ just mean that n is different from ng
01:53:30 <oerjan> i mean that there are essentially two part sounds to -ng- in finger
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01:54:27 <Nihilumbra> I pronounce finger as staya with me here, F- ee-N - gurr
01:54:30 <oerjan> maybe there's always a bit of it left in english
01:54:55 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: well yes, that's what i expect. it's _other_ words than finger i'm wondering about.
01:55:05 <oerjan> e.g. just "sing", with nothing after it.
01:55:48 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: um if you have an a there, i think you have a _weird_ dialect.
01:56:15 * oerjan wishes some other native english speaker would chime in here
01:57:01 <oerjan> FireFly: you're not native english speaker tdnh
01:57:19 <FireFly> That is correct, also my english isn't all that good (especially not the pronounciation)
01:57:20 <oerjan> i think i'm at the point where i won't believe the judgement of anyone who isn't.
01:57:51 <Nihilumbra> its for me S ee n g "a" and the a is a fast syllable so its only audible in words that end with ing
01:59:34 <Nihilumbra> After a person says a word and hear the correct pronounciation I can say it back with no error
02:00:43 <Nihilumbra> ??? I'm confused no one else pronounces it like that?
02:01:18 <FireFly> Where do you live, if you don't mind?
02:02:08 <Nihilumbra> Washington state but I was born and raised in pallasgreen, Limerick and leanred English there
02:04:31 <boily> ♪ DING ♪ new PDF version!
02:10:03 <boily> @ask elliott where are you? did you die?
02:10:43 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.6655
02:11:57 <boily> too much of a hassle now. will do quotes later.
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03:42:41 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.
03:43:11 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/on .*/on EFnet or DALnet./' wisdom/esoteric
03:43:18 <HackEgo> This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
03:43:39 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
03:44:03 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: we found out there was an #esoteric on EFnet, which may be more alive than the DALnet one.
03:44:28 <oerjan> so i'm updating the advice.
03:45:23 <oerjan> my vague understanding is that EFnet doesn't have a global way of accessing it, you need to look up their server list e.g. on the web.
03:46:07 <oerjan> i might be confused about it, though.
03:46:16 * oerjan isn't on EFnet himself.
03:47:12 <pikhq> Um, irc.efnet.org works.
03:48:19 <oerjan> i'm probably confused then, or outdated.
03:49:06 <FireFly> I don't know if they do SSL, probably not
03:49:19 <FireFly> You're better off just looking it up instead
03:49:24 <oerjan> i _still_ think looking it up is... right
03:51:02 <FireFly> Presumably about 10 more than the DALnet channel
03:53:07 <pikhq> Only some of their servers do SSL.
03:53:57 <pikhq> Not that it hurts as much for them as it would for others -- no nickserv means no logins.
03:54:32 <pikhq> EFnet does not do services.
03:54:43 <pikhq> There is no nickserv. There is no chanserv.
03:55:50 <zzo38> Did you add the wisdom file for "Plain TeX" yet?
03:56:16 <oerjan> `le/rn plain tex/Plain TeX is plain annoying.
03:56:26 -!- Lyka|Away has changed nick to Lyka.
03:56:28 <oerjan> THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU NAG
03:57:01 <zzo38> `le/rn plain tex/Plain TeX is plain annoying. THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU NAG
03:57:54 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/'plain tex'
04:00:51 <zzo38> Oops sorry I shouldn't repeat myself
04:01:02 <oerjan> `learn PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
04:01:05 <HackEgo> Learned 'pdf': PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
04:01:24 <oerjan> you may note a common thread here.
04:01:24 <zzo38> Sometimes I push "REPEAT" by mistake
04:01:51 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
04:01:57 <oerjan> you have a REPEAT key that your irc client understands?
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04:18:46 <FireFly> Hm, if one had a re-programmable keyboard, one could add a REPEAT key that repeats everything up until the last enter
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04:19:26 <Lyka> sir robin ran away, oh brae sir robin...
04:19:32 <Lyka> when danger reared its ugly head he tucked his tail and turned and ran, oh brave brave sir robin
04:20:01 <zzo38> I don't have a re-programmable keyboard
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04:34:16 <HackEgo> LaTeX is \end{verbatim} \textbackslash textbackslash begin\textbackslash \{document\textbackslash \}
04:35:23 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
04:35:41 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
04:36:07 <oren> `unidecode ��V�>WIד�.��
04:36:08 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+0056 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER V] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+003E GREATER-THAN SIGN] [U+0057 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER W] [U+0049 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER I] [U+05D3 HEBREW LETTER DALET] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+002E FULL STOP] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER] [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT C
04:36:51 <zzo38> Make it to including improper UTF-8 codes too
04:37:06 <zzo38> O, yes, you also forgot Python and Ruby
04:37:14 <Nihilumbra> you can't spell slaughter without laughter
04:37:59 <Lyka> what does this code do: for(;P("\n"),R--;P("|"))for(e=C;e--;P("_"+(*u++/8)%2))P("| "+(*u/4)%2);
04:38:59 <zzo38> I don't know what the P means here even.
04:39:02 <oren> Lyka: enhances someone's job security
04:39:10 <oren> that is'nt normal C
04:40:04 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
04:40:18 <Lyka> it's from the unix hoax page
04:40:33 <Elronnd> java is a language for dumb teachers
04:40:39 <zzo38> I happen to like C instead of C++ but you can program C++ too if you like that one too.
04:40:48 <Lyka> Elronnd: incorrect. C# *is* Java
04:41:13 <zzo38> No, I think C# is a different program language from Java, and uses a different VM too
04:41:36 <Lyka> in college, we had to learn jaa before we could learn C#'
04:41:50 <oren> C# is way better than Java
04:42:06 <zzo38> Have you learned 6502 assembly language programming?
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04:43:00 <Lyka> you must be oungr than me
04:43:06 <oren> `le/rn C#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
04:43:23 <HackEgo> C Pound is Java's good twin.
04:44:07 <zzo38> You can learn 6502 assembly language programming to program Famicom and also some other computers
04:44:40 <Lyka> why whoul anyone in their right mid wanna program an NES?
04:45:08 <oren> Lyka: to make classic awesome video games like Super Mario Bros 3
04:45:21 <oren> Or to modify them for fun
04:45:34 <zzo38> Lyka: Well, I think it is a good system
04:45:56 <Nihilumbra> Wouldn't you think it to be cool if your mother could make you NES games, lyka?
04:46:16 <Lyka> i think it would be weird
04:46:26 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
04:48:08 <Lyka> we have different moms
04:48:59 <zzo38> I think 6502 is a good programming language compared to the mess they made of the newest x86 and ARM systems
04:50:13 <Nihilumbra> but I asked if would be cool if you had a mom like that as in your mom doesn't up and learn 6502 and start scrapping nes games together and making new ones lyka
04:51:07 <zzo38> Some people still do make game for NES/Famicom today.
04:51:21 <Lyka> are you saying you tried to insult my mother?
04:52:34 <Nihilumbra> don't even try to make assumptions of what I say
04:54:02 <Nihilumbra> Insulting ones mother is a bad thing to do but if I were to do It I would be to the point and not work my way around with an argument, Although I don't know your mother but she seems nice
04:54:49 <Lyka> and i am hungry and half-asleep which means my paranoia is more than normal
04:55:39 <Lyka> i gotta go get my midnight snack before the cloc hits 1am
04:57:21 <Nihilumbra> because staying up is extremely unhealthy
04:59:28 <Lyka> so is arguing with a crazy tired person at one am
05:08:58 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: ZZLEEP, you said?).
05:09:31 <zzo38> Is "ZZLEEP" a real word?
05:10:51 <zzo38> I haven't updated the level20.tex in a while, not any new chapters, not any corrections to what it already is. But it probably contains mistakes that I have not yet noticed
05:17:00 <zzo38> One day I was trying to play someone's Hammond organ but it wouldn't turn on; the owner said that probably the motor is broken. But I thought surely that must be wrong because it doesn't have a motor it works by electrics! But, I did not know it had rotating speakers.
05:22:31 <oren> sometimes the 'dependencies' on packages are clearly not
05:24:03 <oren> on the libSDL-dev package on Ubuntu, it says it is dependent on pulseaudio client development package. but sdl programs compile and run just fine without any pulseaudio
05:26:12 <zzo38> Can you edit the package?
05:27:50 <oren> I prefer to simply download packages manually and then run dpkg
05:29:51 <oren> dpkg doesn't automatically download dependent packages, so you can control it better when you notice the dependencies are stupid
05:33:21 <oren> `le/rn apt-get/apt-get installs whatever you wanted, plus whatever Mark Shuttleworth wanted.
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05:37:32 <shachaf> regular old `learn would have worked there
05:37:40 <shachaf> bu `le/rn is obviously superior
05:41:01 <oren> mednafen includes every emulator known to mankind, but for tha reason it takes a million years to comile
05:43:51 <shachaf> `` mkdir wisdom/le; echo 'le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past' > wisdom/le/rn
05:43:51 <HackEgo> mkdir: cannot create directory `wisdom/le': File exists \ bash: wisdom/le/rn: Not a directory
05:44:21 <HackEgo> rn seems to be working rn but it didn't earlier
05:44:30 <shachaf> `` rm wisdom/le; mkdir wisdom/le; echo 'le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past' > wisdom/le/rn
05:44:32 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/le': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `wisdom/le': File exists
05:44:44 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past
05:46:42 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/le/rn
05:56:07 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
06:02:35 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
06:07:27 <Lyka> oren: you called me?
06:08:23 <oren> `le/rn tar/The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf
06:09:25 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
06:10:10 <oren> Never, ever, forget the -k in tar -xavkf
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06:18:24 <oren> ...yeah. a year ago I spent an hour modding some program that did almost what I needed, to do what I needed, and then pressed up, up, enter with the wrong number of ups, obliterating it.
06:22:56 <oren> the -a is jus convenience, so you don't have to remember that z is gzip, Z is compress, j is bzip2, J is xzip
06:23:32 <zzo38> I generally just use pipes though
06:23:56 <zzo38> tar doesn't need all of those options
06:24:51 <zzo38> The best way is to design the program to follow the principle to use pipes as much as possible. My own software such as AmigaMML is following such principle.
06:25:34 <oren> well it is GNU tar. GNU wouldn't be GNU without their habit of adding every possible letter as an option letter to every program
06:26:02 <zzo38> GNU adds too much stuff
06:26:04 <FireFly> oren: GNU tar does -a implicitly I suppose. I usually just tar xf and it handles tar, tar.gz, tar.bz2 and tar.xz
06:30:26 <zzo38> You can pipe zcat to tar, that's how you do it
06:32:48 <FireFly> I'm dealing with an archive format at the moment where each file might be stored plain or compressed.. what would you do in such a case?
06:33:10 <zzo38> What kind of archive format is that?
06:33:32 <FireFly> "GARC", I don't know what the G stands for
06:33:55 <shachaf> FireFly: A decompression program that detects whether the file is compressed?
06:33:57 <FireFly> It's used in Pokemon X/Y to store things
06:34:21 <zzo38> If the archive format itself is having compression, then it can be part of the same program.
06:34:44 <zzo38> If the compression is separate (like with .tar.gz) then you should use the separate program.
06:35:04 <FireFly> shachaf: right, that's pretty much what I'm doing currently
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08:13:33 <oren> the newest mednafen supports custom palettes
08:22:07 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/vbym49fob/
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08:26:55 <oren> the palette format is pretty much undocumented, but by reading the source and experimenting, I concluded that a complete palette is 24 bytes, consisting of 8 24-bit colors
08:27:42 <oren> (for the game boy. I don't know what the format for other systems it)
08:31:12 <oren> but it's refresing actually. there's no complex header or version number or other such nonsense. just 24 bytes.
08:33:01 <FireFly> What upscaling algorithm is that?
08:43:30 <Taneb> What's a polite way of saying "You seem to know me but I have no idea who you are"
08:47:24 <oren> I dunno. "Have we met before?" is maybe the best I can come up with
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09:04:38 <oren> I've noticed a bug in one of their scalers, I'm gonna try to fix it
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09:26:46 <mroman_> Taneb: I'm sorry but right now I'm struggling to remember our last encounter.
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09:53:45 <oren> ha! fixed the bug
09:54:50 <oren> hold on, I'll make a sample
09:59:22 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/5hv845msv/b791af2c/
09:59:55 <oren> illustrates the difference. see the weird pinwheel effect in the nose of the spacefighter
10:00:47 <oren> I fixed that, but it looks different in other situations. I think I'll try to fix that too
10:02:39 <oren> Hmm I guess it's less of a bug fix and more a custom algorithm
10:03:16 <oren> but hey that's the entire point of using open-source software anyay
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11:26:32 <mroman_> damnit I forgot to push some things to my Gulf repos from work :(
11:32:55 <mroman_> Even though there's some overhead with , and . much of the stuff can be done shorter than Burlesque
11:33:05 <mroman_> 1bc4ro?/ for example, is now a mere ,Z1/:4
11:39:44 <mroman_> I might need another prefix for 3 argument functions
11:44:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ΜCurse]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43179&oldid=40993 * Sacchan * (+432)
11:45:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ΜCurse]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43180&oldid=43179 * Sacchan * (+1)
11:49:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ΜCurse]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43181&oldid=43180 * Sacchan * (+0)
11:50:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ΜCurse]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43182&oldid=43181 * Sacchan * (+0)
11:51:38 <fizzie> Taneb: You can say you've lost your memory because of a tragic accident, I understand that's pretty common.
11:51:49 <fizzie> (Based on fiction, anyway.)
12:19:23 <Jafet> More fun complexity analyses: O(n^34 k^34 d^8 log(n)^4 / σ^6)
12:20:02 <int-e> for some reason I'm imagining a posh voice saying "I'm sorry, but have we met?!" (bonus: raised eybrows)
12:20:51 <Jafet> (Upper bound on smoothed running time for the k-means algorithm)
12:21:16 <int-e> Jafet: that looks horrible.
12:21:52 <Jafet> I just find it amusing that they bothered to include the log(n)^4
12:22:41 <int-e> because otherwise it's not a valid upper bound?
12:22:56 <int-e> I guess they could've used n^(34+o(1))...
12:23:17 * int-e wonders what the o is
12:23:40 <Jafet> (or how they got 34 over n and only 4 over log(n))
12:24:55 <Jafet> o(1) means that it tends to zero: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation#Little-o_notation
12:25:56 <int-e> ah you had a sigma there... sorry, the difference is very subtle in the font I'm using.
12:26:43 <int-e> so the question I meant to ask is, what's that σ
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12:28:36 <Jafet> According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K-means_clustering#Complexity, d is the dimension and σ is the stddev for randomly smoothing the input data
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12:33:55 <Lyka> i didn't know that 'K' meant clstering...
12:34:28 <Lyka> just making a joe on the URL
12:36:14 * Lyka is clearly the stupidest person in th room
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13:07:15 <fizzie> "The running time of Lloyds algorithm is often given as O(nkdi), where n is the number of d-dimensional vectors, k the number of clusters and i the number of iterations needed until convergence."
13:07:23 <fizzie> I like the 'i' part, since you can nicely generalize that to "the running time of algorithm X is O(t), where t is the number of operations performed by the algorithm".
13:12:01 <FireFly> Amazing. It's linear in the time taken by the algorithm
13:15:30 <Melvar> fizzie: Is there an obvious bound on i?
13:33:32 <J_Arcane> nerding it up old school https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/607539688317022208
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13:39:38 <HackEgo> BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
13:40:17 <Melvar> fizzie: So more like, the running time is unbounded?
13:40:52 <Phantom_Hoover> did you know there's a character in xcom called van doorn
13:41:02 <Taneb> Yes, someone has told me in the pst
13:41:17 <Taneb> It's not an unheard of name in the Netherlands
13:42:19 <Taneb> There is a DJ and a former anti-Islam politician who converted to Islam
13:44:42 <int-e> `rot0 this seems useful
13:47:13 <Taneb> `rot26 this seems MORE useful
13:48:26 <Taneb> Can anyone think of a cunning way to put all my inventions on my CV
13:49:06 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence.
13:49:18 <HackEgo> TIL that TIL means Today I Learned
13:49:32 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
13:49:41 <int-e> Ah, that kind of persistence.
13:51:53 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
13:52:56 <int-e> "We call a property of many-sorted TRS's persistent if a many-sorted TRS has the property if and only if its adjoined one-sorted TRS has the property."
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14:06:41 <oren> I figured out how to add a custom scaler to mednafen
14:07:16 <oren> I;m gonna make one that is hideously inefficient but makes eveything look exactly right
14:09:39 <oren> actually maybe it can still be efficiant if I get the order of the tests correct
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14:39:36 <oren> coming along ok http://s17.postimg.org/48v0giw0v/notperfect.png
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14:55:26 <izabera> i just downloaded advent children again
14:55:52 <izabera> when it came out, i was like "ok this is it. there will never be 3d graphic more perfect than this."
14:56:09 <izabera> the fire is ugly, the detail is low overall
14:56:29 <izabera> i mean it's still cool but :(
14:56:49 <oerjan> 's ok. in a century we'll think real life has shitty graphics hth
14:58:04 <b_jonas> oerjan: yeah, especially the effects
14:58:57 <b_jonas> oerjan: we need more people like Tarquin, who install dimmers in their palace just so they can give foreshadowings in a monologue better
14:59:07 <int-e> izabera: I remember admiring the graphics of Myst...
14:59:53 <oerjan> that does sound like tarquin although i don't remember the scene.
14:59:59 <int-e> Nowadays even the remastered edition (16bit images, no longer restricted to an 8 bit palette!!) looks quite plain.
15:01:44 <int-e> note, they only had prerendered gaphics. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Myst-library_and_ship.jpg
15:01:52 <int-e> that picture is fairly typical.
15:02:39 <int-e> it was one of the first games to ship exclusively on on CDROM.
15:03:12 <b_jonas> maybe people should play sound effects on their mobile phones during dialogs or meetings
15:09:06 <b_jonas> oerjan: dimmers are in strip #751
15:13:57 <oren> So what i'm gonna do is, I'm gonna look at 21 pixels instead of nine around each pixel
15:18:21 <oren> and then just write ad-hoc code for every situation
15:20:38 * Lyka thinks he is stupidest person in the room
15:20:41 <Melvar> Blah. Is there a standard haskell function splitting a number into digits?
15:22:15 <Lyka> or else this topic is not my are of knowledge
15:23:15 <oerjan> Lyka: i wouldn't bet on that. at least not all the time.
15:23:23 <int-e> @type showIntAtBase
15:23:25 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Show a) => a -> (Int -> Char) -> a -> ShowS
15:24:13 <oerjan> int-e: itym "show" hth
15:24:17 <Melvar> int-e: Yeah, but that involves roundtripping through Char.
15:24:23 <int-e> oerjan: that was my first reply
15:24:39 <Melvar> Also for different bases, yes. Sorry, forgot to specify that.
15:25:40 <Melvar> I mean “map digitToInt (showIntAtBase base intToDigit num "")” works, but I wanted to know if there isn’t something a bit more elegant.
15:26:09 <oerjan> i don't think there's anything else that handles other bases.
15:26:40 <oerjan> it's rather stupid that showIntAtBase is restricted to Char :(
15:26:57 <oerjan> there's no intrinsic reason why it should be.
15:27:19 <int-e> > let d b n | b > n = [n] | otherwise = let (x:xs) = d (b^2) n in (if x < b then (x :) else (div x b :) . (mod x b :)) (xs >>= \x -> [div x b, mod x b]) in [d b 1000 | b <- [2,8,10,16]]
15:27:24 <lambdabot> [[1,1,1,1,1,0,1,0,0,0],[1,7,5,0],[1,0,0,0],[3,14,8]]
15:27:32 <oerjan> i think there's been at least one proposal to generalize it.
15:27:39 <Jafet> map (`mod` b) . takeWhile (>0) . iterate (`div` b)
15:28:26 <oerjan> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/24560
15:28:51 <int-e> @let d b n | b > n = [n] | otherwise = let (x:xs) = d (b^2) n in (if x < b then (x :) else (div x b :) . (mod x b :)) (xs >>= \x -> [div x b, mod x b])
15:28:53 <lambdabot> It could refer to either ‘L.d’, defined at .L.hs:147:1
15:29:28 <int-e> @let digits b n | b > n = [n] | otherwise = let (x:xs) = digits (b^2) n in (if x < b then (x :) else (div x b :) . (mod x b :)) (xs >>= \x -> [div x b, mod x b])
15:29:38 <int-e> > digits 9 (10^10000)
15:29:40 <lambdabot> [3,0,8,8,0,8,2,5,0,4,5,2,7,4,6,0,5,2,4,8,5,8,5,3,2,5,4,3,8,0,6,6,3,2,3,8,0,0...
15:30:00 <int-e> > let digits b = map (`mod` b) . takeWhile (>0) . iterate (`div` b) in digits 9 (10^10000)
15:30:03 <lambdabot> [1,1,4,2,0,4,3,3,0,0,6,4,2,7,2,5,4,8,4,6,4,0,8,6,2,8,6,2,5,4,0,0,7,5,7,5,3,3...
15:30:31 <int-e> > let digits b = map (`mod` b) . takeWhile (>0) . iterate (`div` b) in reverse $ digits 9 (10^10000)
15:30:34 <lambdabot> [3,0,8,8,0,8,2,5,0,4,5,2,7,4,6,0,5,2,4,8,5,8,5,3,2,5,4,3,8,0,6,6,3,2,3,8,0,0...
15:30:51 <int-e> > let digits b = map (`mod` b) . takeWhile (>0) . iterate (`div` b) in reverse $ digits 9 (10^100000)
15:31:02 <int-e> > digits 9 (10^10000)
15:31:05 <lambdabot> [3,0,8,8,0,8,2,5,0,4,5,2,7,4,6,0,5,2,4,8,5,8,5,3,2,5,4,3,8,0,6,6,3,2,3,8,0,0...
15:31:20 <int-e> > digits 9 (10^100000)
15:31:23 <lambdabot> [1,3,8,0,5,3,6,7,3,7,4,7,0,7,2,3,0,0,0,2,5,7,0,7,6,1,5,2,0,7,7,1,7,3,0,0,6,3...
15:31:37 <int-e> sorry, I spammed a bit more than I intended.
15:35:09 <int-e> Melvar: anyway I'd use something like Jafet's code if the numbers are small, and something like mine if the numbers can become big. If I really cared about performance for big numbers I'd start by computing the largest power of b that fits into a machine word...
15:36:29 <Melvar> int-e, Jafet: Thank you.
15:38:42 <Melvar> For my purpose the numbers shall always be 1114111 in bases 8, 10, and 16, but magic numbers and stuff.
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15:45:54 <oerjan> this opposition on the list to generalizing showIntAtBase is weird - afaict from the code, the *only* change necessary is the type signature.
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15:49:21 <oerjan> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.comp.lang.haskell.libraries/24560
15:51:42 * Melvar is just going to roundtrip through showIntAtBase because that way it’s most obvious what it’s doing. <ω<
15:56:05 <int-e> Oh nice, ghc's "show" for Integer is still using my code, virtually unmodified since 2006 :)
15:57:49 <int-e> (but I never followed up on the idea of also improving the generic showIntAtBase)
15:58:43 <oerjan> shachaf: depends on whether you believe in last tuesdayism hth
15:59:28 <oerjan> but i do have you down as probably older than 9. most of the time.
16:00:55 <shachaf> what else do you have me down as
16:01:59 <oerjan> lessee, jewish, vegetarian, bit on the nosy side...
16:02:16 <oerjan> oh and haskeller of course.
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16:06:10 <shachaf> i somewhat have to wonder how the first one came about
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16:08:00 <oerjan> shachaf: lessee was an interjection hth
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16:08:30 <shachaf> i understood, but that would be a good pun
16:09:35 <oerjan> i didn't actually know it had a different meaning until now
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16:19:54 <oren> having only some patterns implemented causes a weird appearance
16:26:19 <oren> like some parts of the screen are silky smooth, while others are pixelated
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16:31:02 <Vorpal> Why does gyroscopic precession work the way it does?
16:31:29 * oerjan suddenly wonders if some of the more inane wisdoms are symbolic links that got broken
16:31:36 <HackEgo> ocean/The pacific ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The atlantic ocean is less cool than its giant underwater moutain range. The arctic ocean is cold. The indian ocean is full of typhoons and non-eurocentric shipping.
16:31:56 <b_jonas> Vorpal: because http://www.xkcd.com/332/
16:32:04 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/moutain/mountain/' wisdom/ocean
16:32:43 <shachaf> `` find wisdom -type l | while read f; do echo -n "$(basename "$f")/"; readlink "$f"; done
16:32:44 <HackEgo> the reals/real \ perpetuum mobile/perpetual motion machine \ the torus/torus \ koen_/koen \ issue/.doorstop \ canary/../canary
16:34:24 <oerjan> `le/rn ocean/The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
16:34:41 <Vorpal> b_jonas, came across it again when reading about helicopters. I guess the issue is that unlike the other basic laws of newtonian motion, it makes no intuitive sense
16:34:48 <HackEgo> le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
16:37:23 <oerjan> shachaf: that's exactly the opposite of what i wondered. i was wondering if there were wisdoms that *used* to be symbolic links, but due to repository/whatever interaction got changed into ordinary files with the destination as plain text.
16:37:54 <shachaf> why would the destination be plain text?
16:38:26 <oerjan> because iirc that's what it looks like if you manage to directly cat a symbolic link
16:38:58 <oerjan> that's what symbolic links look like in the repository browser
16:39:54 <oerjan> so i assume that's what the repository thinks they are, and it's only plain luck if it doesn't get munged to that in accidental `reverts and the like.
16:40:53 <oerjan> i guess my summary is: i don't trust symbolic links to survive `revert wars.
16:41:13 <Vorpal> oerjan, if it is hg, hg fully supports symlinks afaik
16:41:22 <oerjan> Vorpal: ok let's hope so.
16:43:40 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/torus; echo test >wisdom/torus
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16:44:14 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
16:44:23 <oerjan> ok you seem to be right
16:44:54 <oerjan> ...now wondering about `undo
16:45:03 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/torus; echo test >wisdom/torus
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16:46:10 <oerjan> HackEgo seems to be rather slow at this
16:46:22 <HackEgo> patching file wisdom/torus
16:46:38 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
16:47:14 <oerjan> shachaf: i shall stop worrying about HackEgo symbolic links until further notice tdh
16:48:08 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 61 Jun 7 16:47 wisdom/torus
16:49:15 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/torus; ln -s 'the torus' wisdom/torus
16:49:22 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Jun 7 16:50 wisdom/torus -> the torus
16:50:30 <shachaf> `` find wisdom -type f | while read f; do [ -f "$f" ] || continue; a="$(cat "$f")"; [ -f "wisdom/$a" ] && echo "${f#wisdom/}/$a"; done
16:50:33 <oerjan> shachaf: ok `revert and `undo *do* break symbolic links - but the contents seem to become the target contents, not the file name.
16:50:56 <HackEgo> quit//quit \ solain/ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:51:53 <oerjan> @tell Gregor `revert (and `undo) don't reinstate symbolic links properly ;_;
16:52:20 <HackEgo> ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Your dongers. Raise them. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
16:52:52 <shachaf> those seem p. inane but it looks like they're meant to be that way
16:54:43 <oerjan> i suspect the breakage i saw will show up as two wisdoms being identical.
16:56:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access *wolfram*: No such file or directory
16:56:26 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/*wolfram*
16:56:27 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/stephen wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/wolfram
16:56:50 <oerjan> `` diff wisdom/*wolfram*
16:57:01 <oerjan> those seem like pretty good candidates
16:57:15 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, but i already wrote that loop hth
16:57:48 <oerjan> shachaf: wait what loop
16:58:07 <shachaf> the one that loops for symlinks in your previous failure mode
16:58:42 <oerjan> shachaf: um the previous that i don't believe in any longer?
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17:00:58 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm saying, i know that's how the breakage shows up, but i already wrote that loop
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18:15:21 <HackEgo> å is the same letter as Å, unless you're HackEgo and don't understand things on top of letters.
18:16:24 <boily> confirmation I missed at least one entry.
18:17:10 <coppro> since I'm going to meet you apparently, why did you actually compile wisdom.pdf? "Why not?" is acceptable
18:17:30 <HackEgo> Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
18:19:05 <boily> coppro: I felt like it. nothing like a beautifully typeset document.
18:20:03 <boily> also, I'm our DnD group note taker and journal maker. It's a tradition to read the day's highlights standing on a chair.
18:20:06 <ais523> it feels like a #esoteric kind of thing to do
18:20:26 <boily> there's even a makefile!
18:21:32 <coppro> we should try to have a meeting sometime, with parliamentary procedure
18:21:54 <coppro> but no one is allowed advance notice of the meeting and everyone is required to use a different set of rules
18:22:15 <boily> can I chose the parliament? will a simple town hall do?
18:22:26 <boily> also, do you have a github account?
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18:22:39 <coppro> yes, but there isn't much of interest on it. why?
18:23:18 <boily> Deewiant: Dheellowiant. I'm updating the Wisdom PDF, and there aren't any descriptions under your section. care to provide some info about yourself twh?
18:23:32 <coppro> in fact I'm going to clean up my github by deleting stuff nobody cared about anyway
18:23:34 <boily> coppro: to add you as a collaborator to the repo.
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18:27:11 <coppro> no I don't know why I made that logo
18:27:33 <coppro> I need to get a decent picture of my face to use as a fact in all the places they expect a face
18:30:02 <HackEgo> Deewiant is the world's number one expert on Befunge and Funge-98.
18:30:13 <zzo38> I also play Dungeons&Dragons game but not since March 27, I type all the notes on computer
18:30:53 <boily> Deewiant: oh. I was simply missing it. will be added soon. tdh.
18:30:56 <Deewiant> Actually that may be inaccurate, I think the original quote is 2009-04-02 00:20:06 (ais523) Deewiant here is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing
18:31:25 <boily> hmm... tough call. I think I'll be going with the latter. more #esöteric.
18:31:34 <boily> and it's ais523approved too!
18:31:58 <boily> coppro: I use my universal kaki for everything that expects an avatar.
18:32:39 <shachaf> i hope you don't have any description of me
18:33:06 <boily> yes. oh que oui j'ai une description. mouah ah ah.
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18:34:01 <HackEgo> shachaf sprø som selleri and cosplays Nepeta Leijon on weekends.
18:34:14 <HackEgo> funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf.
18:35:04 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
18:35:29 <HackEgo> metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
18:35:55 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
18:36:00 <Deewiant> `learn Deewiant is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing.
18:36:02 <HackEgo> Learned 'deewiant': Deewiant is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing.
18:36:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: coppro: not found
18:36:27 <HackEgo> coppro prefers his nickname, Pooppy.
18:37:01 <fizzie> I think ø should rot13 to b̷. Or at least something.
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18:37:31 <coppro> http://rot8000.com/index
18:37:46 <HackEgo> Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
18:38:16 <boily> I think I prefer fizzie's suggestion. let's see how I can massage the latex to get a stroked b.
18:38:18 <HackEgo> fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
18:38:25 <HackEgo> log/I think you might mean !logs
18:39:14 <zzo38> Well, relative to wise people I am a bit foolish
18:39:21 <ais523> hmm, my browser thinks that .jpg is a "26300 file" rather than a jpeg
18:39:59 <int-e> Content-Type: application/binary <-- not helpful
18:40:18 <ais523> is that even a real content type?
18:40:22 <zzo38> Can you override MIME types in your browser?
18:40:34 <zzo38> (In the one I use, it has that capability)
18:40:56 <Melvar> < fizzie> I think ø should rot13 to b̷. Or at least something. – Does that happen if you NFKD it first?
18:40:58 <shachaf> So I could view things that are sent as application/octet-stream as text/plain or application/pdf or something.
18:41:24 <zzo38> Clearly is a lot of missing
18:41:34 <Deewiant> shachaf: https://github.com/spasche/openinbrowser if firefox
18:41:56 <boily> @ask Dulnes hi there! we're missing an official description of you for... uh... purposes. care to provide one twh? have a nice diurnal episode.
18:43:04 <boily> re Dulnes: I put in a placeholder.
18:43:38 <zzo38> `? Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe
18:43:38 <HackEgo> Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:43:42 <boily> int-e: I'm adding this new description, but keeping the old one two.
18:44:21 <zzo38> `learn 2600 Hz is the tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle.
18:44:24 <HackEgo> Learned '2600': 2600 Hz is the tone made by Captain Crunch's whistle.
18:44:42 <int-e> oh is it the one that allowed free phone calls?
18:45:35 <zzo38> On some systems it allowed you to set the routing of calls yourself, so you could get free phone calls and other stuff
18:46:04 <zzo38> It is also the name of a magazine published quarterly
18:46:18 <zzo38> They often have strange stuff in the letters section
18:46:26 <HackEgo> nortti boy. very nortti boy.
18:46:58 <boily> b_jhellonas. this is the Department of Wisdom. you are undescripted. please provide some witty quip or prepare to be granted a Government Approved tagline. your cooperation is appreciated.
18:47:19 <int-e> `learn Me is a proud member of the tEaM.
18:47:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'me': Me is a proud member of the tEaM.
18:48:23 <HackEgo> 731) <oklopol> nortti: fizzie has done some impressive stuff in befunge, which is essentially the two-dimensional version of finnish politics. \ 732) <elliott> It's... not really links2-optimised. <nortti> elliott: I don't think that any page is links2 optimised \ 1202) <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint wit
18:48:34 <HackEgo> 1202) <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti's glorious nation... later.
18:48:54 <int-e> nortti: thinking about that complaint ;)
18:49:05 <boily> b_jonas: apparently, there's a placeholder under your section for the time being.
18:49:14 <coppro> am I an honourary citizen of Procrasti?
18:49:39 <b_jonas> witty quip? hmm, that's difficult
18:49:45 <coppro> I never got around to filling out my citizenship application
18:49:56 <int-e> coppro: I suppose the Procrastination isn't very picky with its citizens.
18:50:44 <HackEgo> 1119) <ion> olsner: For all x, the probability of a monad tutorial existing that explains monads as x approaches one as time goes to infinity. <boily> good monadic morning! <ion> Monads are a bit like mornings. <myname> what
18:51:14 <HackEgo> 368) <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, little do you realise that everything you say and do is part of that great monad tutorial we call life. \ 515) <Gregor> Phantom_Hoover: Sort of a monadic human centipede. \ 516) <elliott> When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie, that's a monad. \ 527) <Gregor> You know how the arrow pierces your skin, rearrang
18:52:08 <int-e> Let it be stated clearly once and for all that this is not a Haskell channel. ... *runs*
18:52:42 <nortti> oh, right, you're here too
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18:52:55 <HackEgo> 85) <Warrigal> Darn, now I can't acknowledge the reference you were making. \ 135) <fizzie> It's like mathematicians, where the next step up from "trivial" is "open research question". <fizzie> "Nope... No...This problem can't be done AT ALL. This one--maybe, but only with two yaks and a sherpa. ..." \ 143) <fungot> Vorpal: you can't plant spiders
18:52:57 <olsner> int-e: let's just pretend that haskell is an esolang then
18:53:10 <boily> @ask vanila good moment of the day! would you care being shamelessly wisdomified? twh and all that sort of thing.
18:53:26 <HackEgo> 1202) <int-e> The people of Procrasti hereby resolve to lodge a formal complaint with Taneb and nortti about their ridicule of Procasti's glorious nation... later.
18:53:32 <int-e> olsner: right, let's quote https://xkcd.com/1312/ as a proof
18:53:52 <int-e> `? procrastination
18:53:53 <HackEgo> procrastination? ¯\(°_o)/¯
18:54:04 <nortti> shikhin: no one's gotten around to adding those
18:54:32 <HackEgo> 1228) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
18:54:45 <HackEgo> 33) <mycroftiv> [...] sometimes i cant get out of bed becasue the geometry of the sheet tangle is too fascinating from a topological perspective
18:54:52 <boily> fungot dammit. this one's going to be interesting to include.
18:54:52 <fungot> boily: joku linuxista fnord cd mp3 fnord?
18:55:23 <boily> fungot: そうですね… しょうがないなぁ…
18:55:23 <fungot> boily: eg? with code in the backtrace
18:55:38 <fungot> boily: most of these comments are ones i'd never consider fnord them by calling their product ice cream. fnord.
18:56:01 <boily> fungot: you should see the Source of the Wisdom. quite a few comments in therre.
18:58:27 <int-e> `learn The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube.
18:58:29 <HackEgo> Learned 'procrastination': The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube.
19:01:55 <HackEgo> szoup/A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
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19:12:52 <boily> @ask rdococ rdhellococ! I will spontaneously describe you in the next minutes. would you like to have an autodescription instead?
19:13:30 <HackEgo> automatic squirrel feeder/Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
19:13:36 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
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19:13:53 <zzo38> That's good I like that too
19:14:10 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
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19:14:45 <int-e> boily: you can play with \scalebox: \scalebox{2}[1]{zzo38:it will cause problems by being hilarious}
19:15:22 <boily> int-e: I found an interesting solution already :P
19:15:30 <boily> (will try yours in a few.)
19:17:21 <int-e> \emph{Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.} <-- is "eliot" spelled that way intentionally?
19:17:58 <ais523> there are a bunch of misspelled elliotts around, they're mostly other people
19:18:31 <boily> int-e: yes. this is entirely volitional.
19:19:45 <int-e> `? the identity function
19:19:45 <HackEgo> the identity function? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:20:00 <int-e> `? identity function
19:20:00 <HackEgo> The identity function is a mockingbird.
19:20:47 <int-e> I thought M x = x x... Smullyan called I the Idiot bird.
19:23:40 <boily> ♪ DONG ♪ new PDF version!
19:25:41 <ais523> the identity function isn't a mockingbird
19:25:51 <ais523> wisdom's just lying, as normal
19:26:36 <doesthiswork> has anyone heard of the language Toadskin? I just found a reference to it in speculative grammarian and it appears to consist of the characters :;.><+-vxVX http://specgram.com/CLI.2/04.davis.acquisition.html
19:26:44 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
19:26:46 <boily> meanwhile, there's an interesting typo on wikipédia's article on haiku: “...even to the point of occasionally end-stopping a phrase with a shōjoshi (少女詩 sentence ending particle)...”
19:27:23 <boily> doesthiswork: VX? http://www.reddit.com/r/vxjunkies ?
19:28:24 <ais523> doesthiswork: I've heard of it, but I can't remember details
19:28:41 <ais523> doesthiswork: looks like the wiki knows: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Toadskin
19:28:44 <boily> instead of a 終助詞 (shūjoshi: end particle), they wrote 少女詩 (shōjoshi: small girl poem).
19:29:09 <ais523> it seems to be brainfuck, but with Forth's : and ; instructions
19:29:14 <ais523> which is at least more interesting than most BF derivatives
19:30:40 <doesthiswork> I wonder why they chose that particular esoteric language to use.
19:31:03 <ais523> (the vxVX aren't part of the language but because you have : and ; you can define them)
19:32:07 <ais523> how do nested : and ; work in Forth?
19:32:27 <ais523> is it possible to do flow control entirely with them by continuously redefining commands later in the program, or is there some sort of entropy issue?
19:32:37 <ais523> like, can you construct an infinite loop with them
19:36:54 <nys> well in ordinary forth you can't nest : ;
19:36:56 <zzo38> You can't nest : and ; in Forth
19:37:14 <Koen__> isn't it weird that > is pop and < is push?
19:37:21 <nys> because the action of : is to allot space for a new word and switch to compilation mode
19:37:31 <ais523> oh, that's disappointing :-(
19:37:37 <nys> just like how " can't be nested in bash
19:37:51 <zzo38> When executing, the : reads another word and begins a new definition and then enter compile mode, and then the ; compiles EXIT and then goes back to execute mode
19:38:25 <ais523> " can be nested in INTERCAL :-P
19:38:43 <boily> INTERCAL can do everything.
19:38:46 <ais523> so what does Forth do if it sees an ; while in execute mode?
19:38:56 <zzo38> I think it depend on the implementation
19:38:59 <boily> Koen__: Khelloen__! long time no see!
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19:39:18 <zzo38> Some implementations might treat it as an error like because it is not defined
19:39:37 <Koen__> to be honest my irc client sucks so most of the times I'm too lazy to go on irc
19:40:50 <zzo38> I didn't like the other IRC client either that is why I wrote my own one (which still isn't quite best though)
19:44:05 <int-e> . o O ( There are IRC clients other than irssi? Blasphemy! )
19:44:36 <zzo38> Yes I think there is many different kinds
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20:02:46 <ais523> int-e: I use Konversation; and IIRC, zzo38 uses a client that's basically the raw IRC protocol but with syntax highlighting
20:02:46 <HackEgo> Å/Å _is_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
20:02:55 <ais523> and maybe some way to type "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" quickly?
20:03:01 <HackEgo> eurovision/Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing.
20:04:05 <int-e> ais523: fwiw, I have used xchat, but it didn't scale to more than 6 or 7 channels for me...
20:04:29 <zzo38> shachaf: Is what true?
20:04:38 <shachaf> zzo38: You use the IRC client ais523 describes?
20:04:56 <ais523> I dont know the details
20:05:44 <zzo38> At the beginning of a line if a space-bar is pushed it automatically type "PRIVMSG #esoteric :" or whatever the current channel happens to be set to (if there is no current channel, it just beeps and won't actually type a space.)
20:06:13 <zzo38> There are a few other features too though, such as macros, and masking passwords
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20:16:52 <int-e> @type (join . join, join . fmap join)
20:16:54 <lambdabot> (Monad m, Monad m1) => (m (m (m a)) -> m a, m1 (m1 (m1 a1)) -> m1 a1)
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20:25:05 <Nihilumbra> if you say "whale oil beef hooked" really fast it sounds like "well ill be fucked" in an irish accent
20:31:08 <mroman_> I'm a barbie girl, in a barbie world...
20:31:38 <int-e> mroman_: oops I did it again!
20:32:13 <int-e> Nihilumbra: No, what I meant is that the very same idea underlies many occurrences of "xxx"
20:32:37 <b_jonas> ais523: by the way, I read the C++ union rules (most of it, anyway), and it's better than I thought
20:32:58 <mroman_> What's Firefox's new "Leseansicht"?
20:33:01 <b_jonas> it's not as easy as I thought to accidentally write code that silently compiles but doesn't work than I thought
20:33:39 <mroman_> esolangs.org is blank in reader view
20:33:40 <ais523> "lese" = reading, "sicht" = sight, "an" is a connective
20:34:45 <Nihilumbra> everything needs javascript mroman_ hth
20:35:34 <mroman_> Just because life gave someone Lemons isn't a good enough justification to make JavaScript out of it
20:36:33 <int-e> mroman_: did you know that Firfox' UI is written in Javascript and XML files (XUL)?
20:39:42 <mroman_> I'm the worlds greatest blasphemist.
20:40:23 <mroman_> Did you know that just by listening on the radio to the past doing the Urbi et Orbi you will be forgiven all your sins?
20:40:28 <int-e> Ok, the feature is called "reader view".
20:41:03 <int-e> fungot: Is Nihilumbra your evil twin?
20:41:03 <fungot> int-e: and you don't even have to aware that it was
20:41:14 <zzo38> I am a heretic too
20:41:21 <coppro> ais523: did you hear about the new MP2 low%?
20:41:40 <int-e> fungot: please clarify
20:41:44 <coppro> it's not technically an improvement in terms of %, but a much, much easier way to get MBI was found
20:41:46 <int-e> fungot: please clarify *to us*
20:41:46 <fungot> int-e: i suspend to disk most of the commercial apps i work on a brainfuck interpreter fails to be a pointer to that url. i'll bookmark it. traffic caps are on at this hour, and they have so much mass that you throw off earth's orbit and we go flying into the sun.
20:41:48 <zzo38> Because, I do not agree much of the stuff of beliefs of Roman Catholics.
20:42:23 <mroman_> It's hard being an Atheist without being a Blasphemist as well
20:42:24 <ais523> I heard about someome doing it speedrun-style
20:42:27 <mroman_> although it would technically be possible.
20:42:43 <coppro> yes, because of hte improvement in the route, it became runnable as a speedrun
20:42:45 <ais523> i.e. single segment and aiming to go quickly
20:42:51 <coppro> miles did a hard mode run of it
20:42:56 <zzo38> mroman_: To me it doesn't seem that someone who is atheist is necessarily blasphemy too
20:43:06 <coppro> and someone did it yesterday on normal as part of a marathon
20:43:36 <coppro> so you know how you need to transition rooms when traveling OoB in the Prime games?
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20:43:58 <mroman_> zzo38: You're only a blasphemist if you ridicule religious things.
20:44:04 <coppro> if you hit a cannon in the inactive room, it will get very confused and leave you with MBI
20:44:27 <ais523> is that the old or new method?
20:44:34 <coppro> old method relied on infinite speed
20:44:47 <coppro> there's a cannon in sanctuary that Miles figured out how to hit, and this skips a lot of the backtracking, plus the light show
20:45:34 <mroman_> and I treat homeopathy as some sort of religious believe.
20:46:31 <coppro> the other improvement miles did compared to the previous 6% I saw is that he got ballsy with Quadraxis skip and unmorphed to cut across, rather than going the long way around
20:46:32 <mroman_> Because if you take some homeopathic remedy and it didn't work it's your fault
20:46:43 <mroman_> because logically if you don't believe in it HOW could it work.
20:46:51 <zzo38> I do not consider myself as an atheist though
20:47:03 <mroman_> I consider myself as a Blasphemist.
20:47:32 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:47:50 <zzo38> Actually, placebo effects can work even if you do not believe in it.
20:47:53 <int-e> phew, for a moment there I thought I was un the wrong channel...
20:47:55 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
20:48:02 <zzo38> O, it works backward too!
20:48:17 <zzo38> Now you have to work it sideways.
20:48:36 <int-e> zzo38: it's funny how it swaps ( and ) but not < and >.
20:48:44 <ais523> zzo38: there are a huge variety of welcome messages in HackEgo
20:48:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hellcome: not found
20:49:13 <ais523> OK, idea: instead of `relcome being `relcome, you should have to write `welcome in rainbow colours
20:49:48 <mroman_> Does science count as a religion?
20:49:51 <coppro> ais523: also this isn't speedrunning related, but you'll find it amusing. While in Japan I picked up Japanese copies of MegaMan Battle Network 6. I can't read Japanese, but I want to enjoy the postgame.
20:50:00 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/tr.*/tr \(\)\<\> \)\(\>\</' bin/emoclew
20:50:07 <ais523> coppro: 6 is one of the better games in that series
20:50:20 <zzo38> Although, there are some problems with how science is done so might be consider like religion, but actually it isn't a religion, especially when done properly.
20:50:26 <coppro> ais523: yes. I would say 3 > 2 > 6
20:50:31 <ais523> (also, the issue with the MMBN series is that it has excellent battle mechanics and doesn't really know what to do with the best of the ame)
20:50:33 <zzo38> I also don't like daylight saving time, but that doesn't seem to really have much to do with religion.
20:50:44 <coppro> not sure how I feel about 1 vs. 5, 4 is clearly at the bottom
20:50:45 <int-e> `` sed -i 's/tr.*/tr \\\(\\\)\\\<\\\> \\\)\\\(\\\>\\\</' bin/emoclew
20:50:45 <ais523> coppro: you know, I think I'll agree with that
20:50:52 <shachaf> ais523: Did you update your thesis?
20:50:55 <ais523> I was about to say "not sure about 1 vs 5 but 4 is the worst"
20:51:00 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
20:51:02 <zzo38> Nevertheless I would want to know statistics about percentages of people of different kind of religion that like and don't like daylight saving time too
20:51:03 <ais523> shachaf: the deadline for the updates is early july
20:51:06 <mroman_> My religion is pretty much: "Accepting that not ever question can be answered or has yet a known answer but you need to search for answers, extend your answers, refine and correct your answers and never stop doing that"
20:51:10 <coppro> 5 is actually the only one I haven't beaten
20:51:32 <ais523> I'm currently reading the lists of corrections I have to make
20:51:40 <coppro> I've 100%ed only 2 and 3. Haven't done 4 because ugh, 5 because I haven't beaten it, and 6 because it's English
20:51:42 <zzo38> mroman_: I agree with that, but do not consider it as religion.
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20:51:59 <coppro> so now that I have Japanese copies I can actually postgame 6
20:52:30 <boily> I'm Tanebventionist.
20:52:34 <zzo38> (Nevertheless, it is a thing that can involve religion, science, and philosophy.)
20:52:36 <coppro> ais523: you know about the English postgame in 6, right?
20:52:49 <zzo38> (Science isn't perfect, but it it s the best we have. Mathematics is perfect, though.)
20:53:20 <coppro> ais523: The post-game for 6 got cut significantly in the English version, down to a single area from I think 4 or 5. The reason is hilarious: with the English text, the game wouldn't fit on the cartridge
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20:53:42 <Nihilumbra> but not because nihil means nothing and umbra is a shadow an absence of something
20:53:43 <zzo38> I consider myself as panendeist
20:54:10 <oren> I prefer to call myself a pragmatist
20:54:57 <coppro> ais523: I should check in on the BN1 speedrunners
20:54:57 <mroman_> I just read that as Panendienst.
20:55:11 <coppro> they had made some nontrivial progress in manipulating the GMD RNG
20:55:12 <zzo38> mroman_: Which means what?
20:55:33 <coppro> though I think they'll never get it to the level of art that is Golden Sun
20:55:39 <oren> I'll worship a god if there's a immediately visible benefit (financial, social, etc...)
20:55:50 <mroman_> It's a service for when you have car troubles.
20:55:55 <int-e> Pannendienst, if that's supposed to be german?
20:56:27 <Nihilumbra> if god exists he's/it/she is probably to busy to give a hoot about earth
20:56:49 <Nihilumbra> seeing as its a very small percentage of the observable universw
20:57:11 <coppro> I can't find a link at the moment, but GS plans out every single "random" encounter for the entire run.
20:57:19 <oren> Nihilumbra: but intervention froma god isn't the only effect of worship.
20:57:43 <int-e> http://www.smbc-comics.com/index.php?id=1857 seems relevant
20:58:03 <zzo38> I am not a traditional theist or deist though, therefore I don't take those arguments. Yes, the Earth is a very small and very minor part of the universe, but it is still something.
20:58:10 <oren> there are immediately obvious effects as to who likes you, who doesn't
20:58:15 <mroman_> it's all part of a much bigger picture
20:58:49 * int-e sidles off to find his Dogma DVD...
20:58:49 <zzo38> The biggest Greed is wanting an afterlife. (Well, not quite: the actual biggest greed is wanting an afterlife and taking everything with you)
20:59:35 <Nihilumbra> the biggest greed is an afterlife with even more stuff than you would perpetually need
20:59:53 <mroman_> why would you even want an afterlife
21:00:04 <mroman_> living forever has got to be boring
21:00:30 <Nihilumbra> mroman_: I would like to meet my ancestors
21:01:02 <mroman_> I get that people want to see their dead relatives again.
21:01:11 <boily> I would like to have a nice afterlife without alcohol, so my skin remains smooth.
21:01:57 <zzo38> People, because they do not understand, call GOD as a "Person" or something like that, or various other things which aren't so sensible.
21:02:39 <zzo38> The proper words to describe GOD don't exist (and we can't easily make it to exist since nobody would know what it is), therefore we have to use wrong words.
21:02:44 <zzo38> There is no other choice.
21:02:54 <boily> mroman_: what was your here again?
21:03:23 <mroman_> Winterthur, Switzerland, Europe, Earth, Solar System, MilkyWay, Universe No. 9
21:03:31 <Nihilumbra> god if in correct in it not being a douche canoe would appear to you in the shape you are most comfortable with
21:03:47 <zzo38> Of course, I don't know either. I only approximate; all of religious/theology/etc are only being approximate.
21:04:19 <mroman_> God just needed 9 tries to get it right.
21:04:34 <mroman_> the other ones are probably weird.
21:05:04 <mroman_> assuming God created the universe, and not just earth
21:05:14 <mroman_> I'm not sure what the bible *exactly* says about that.
21:05:46 <fizzie> Well, also the "heavens".
21:05:58 <zzo38> I don't believe that kind of old mythology anyways
21:06:07 <Nihilumbra> lets just assume his mother did the universe thing
21:06:13 <zzo38> "Created" isn't even the right word, but there aren't any better words!
21:06:19 <Nihilumbra> and god created three dimensions of existence
21:06:34 <fizzie> "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth", starts the NIV translation.
21:06:56 <mroman_> God must have forseen that some people eventually stop believing in him
21:07:04 <mroman_> why would he create humans capable of not believing in him?
21:07:06 <zzo38> Universe is made out of mathematics. There may be an infinte number of possible universes.
21:07:17 <mroman_> Why didn't he just create humans in a way so that they ultimatively always will obey him?
21:07:25 <zzo38> People misunderstand the nature of God
21:07:28 <fizzie> mroman_: I guess that might've been boring?
21:07:35 <mroman_> Also why did he even bother to create humans?
21:07:56 <zzo38> (I don't understand either, but I believe in approximations which I believe to be better approximations than others do)
21:07:56 <mroman_> That's actually a much better question :)
21:08:12 <Nihilumbra> I was told that god created humans with free will but told them what to do until that whole apple crisis
21:08:15 <mroman_> Why *did* he create earth and life?
21:08:22 <zzo38> Therefore your questions are wrong, in my opinion.
21:08:36 <fizzie> Some people write brainfuck, others create worlds and life.
21:08:43 <zzo38> (That doesn't mean it isn't worth asking; how do you know it is wrong unless you ask?)
21:09:06 <mroman_> Maybe we are just an esoteric world among many other more reasonable worlds
21:09:25 <mroman_> Maybe we are the brainfuck world of all worlds
21:09:33 <b_jonas> No look. God created nothing, but that was a brilliant move of his, because then from that the empty set sprang onto existence on the zeroth day, then the set containing the empty set sprang into existance on the first day, etc, and eventually all sets and all of mathematics and physics come into existance some day. "day" isn't to be taken literally.
21:09:48 <boily> mroman_: I am of the impression that it's currently the other way around. Almost all other universes are brainfuckiest than ours.
21:09:57 <boily> Nihilumbra: that'd be interesting!
21:10:46 <zzo38> b_jonas: In my opinion that seem closer than how the Bible and other stuff says, but still very wrong.
21:11:09 <zzo38> Time is a function of the universe, but actually spacetime is, not time and space.
21:11:13 <Nihilumbra> the bible is a very old book that has been mistranslated multiple tines
21:11:42 <zzo38> That's true, it is an old book.
21:11:49 <int-e> right now, she's unconscious in a skee ball player's body in some hospital...
21:14:25 <zzo38> I don't believe in the personal kind of God.
21:14:51 <zzo38> My own kind of believe it is very confusing and unusual compared to others
21:15:07 <zzo38> Someone told me to make up the Church of Four Concentric Circles
21:16:35 <b_jonas> Church of Four Concentric Circles? what's that? and how's that ever going to be projective invariant?
21:17:06 <zzo38> The circles are just a diagram.
21:20:43 <zzo38> The proper diagram would be impossible to draw, therefore I have to use the one that I made like this instead.
21:25:32 <olsner> I do like the idea of a religion based on a diagram that's impossible to draw
21:25:36 <zzo38> (I was also once told that I should earn the Ig Nobel prize for proving it impossible to use complex numbers in accounting.)
21:25:56 <zzo38> (However, I forget the proof.)
21:26:10 <zzo38> olsner: O, you do? OK, that's good then
21:30:02 <zzo38> Such diagram, also, is just the metaphor.
21:30:34 <mroman_> which is going to be obsoleted by Gulf
21:31:00 <mroman_> but I'm most strongly against religion because of it's risk for violence.
21:31:39 <mroman_> It's so hot here that the slightest physical activity makes you sweat like a pig :(
21:31:51 <mroman_> 29 degrees room temperature
21:32:16 <mroman_> at least the hail storm will bring some cold
21:32:32 <mroman_> (where cold probably means it's going to cool down to 25 degrees room temperature)
21:35:32 <zzo38> It does have risk of violence, but so do other things. It is possible to do good things and bad things with various stuff, too.
21:37:41 <olsner> I like to think that faith and religion are separate, faith (= you believe whatever you want) is fine and dandy, but when you organize it into a religion it starts to get dangerous
21:38:32 <olsner> I also like to take a bath
21:38:53 <lambdabot> CYUL 072100Z 14012KT 30SM FEW150 OVC250 22/06 A2998 RMK AC2CS6 SLP151 DENSITY ALT 800FT
21:41:22 <zzo38> olsner: Ah, OK, yes some people like to make this distinction.
21:42:30 <b_jonas> isn't there actually a three-way distinction rather than two-way?
21:43:09 <b_jonas> three-way between, I think, beliefs, religion, and church.
21:43:23 <zzo38> Yes, there is that distinction too
21:44:09 <b_jonas> I could be getting this wrong though
21:44:13 <b_jonas> I don't think too much about it
21:48:00 <coppro> b_jonas: I think you could eliminate the church/religion distinction if you wanted
21:48:10 <coppro> a church is really just a sect
21:48:19 <coppro> and you can view sects as different but similar religions
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21:57:52 <lambdabot> LOWI 072150Z AUTO 26014KT 220V290 9999 -TSRA //////CB FEW038 BKN046 19/14 Q1023
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22:35:15 <oerjan> boily: i believe Dulnes is part of the collective nick-unstable entity currently mostly known as Nihilumbra (and whatever you do, don't assume they're the same person hth)
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22:36:24 <oerjan> (not in public, anyway)
22:36:58 <HackEgo> 1223) <Dulnes> Anyways i actually do have food in my house and this time its not coffee based
22:37:58 <oerjan> boily: i'm also implying e may not get that lambdabot message
22:39:24 <oerjan> shachaf: was that necessary
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22:42:48 <oerjan> <int-e> Content-Type: application/binary <-- not helpful <-- the hg browser at some point stopped serving files properly for security reasons.
22:43:05 <oerjan> i.e. that link used to work when it was added.
22:43:52 <oerjan> shachaf: not if you don't care about social consequences
22:44:39 <shachaf> should i make fun of them obliquely while they're not in the channel, like the rest of you, rather than directly?
22:44:50 <shachaf> or should i harass them in /msg, like they do?
22:46:52 <shachaf> not lately, unless they happen to be doing it from one of the nicks i /ignored
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22:50:03 <b_jonas> stupid webpage uses css rules to crop some of the page unreadable
22:50:16 <b_jonas> I can fix it on client side, but why do I have to?
22:54:28 <b_jonas> whoa, webpage has en_UK and en_US localization (they might be identical though)
22:55:44 <oerjan> one thing i hate is pages with wide margins designed such that i see _less_ of the text when zooming in, because the margins grow instead of the text...
22:56:35 <oerjan> (well the text font grows, but not the textbox)
22:56:39 <zzo38> I think they should just use the default margins, and then the width adjusts with the width of the window.
22:57:17 <b_jonas> yes, they should just use default for most things
22:57:29 <oerjan> zzo38: well of course there are plenty of sites that do it the reasonable way, i'm talking about broken sites
22:58:20 <zzo38> For everything, as far as I am concerned, you should use the client's default unless you have a good reason not to (such as: if you need different colors of text, set both the foreground and background colors; otherwise don't set any colors)
22:58:55 <oerjan> also there's this stupid newspaper comic page that uses my zoom level to decide that i need to be redirected to their mobile site - so to visit it, i to first turn off my zoom and then rezoom after the page has loaded.
23:01:05 <b_jonas> "The weight limit does not apply to electric wheelchairs, musical instruments or animals in the cargo hold." -- oh! do they allow elephants? dragons?
23:01:05 <oerjan> i wish they'd somehow managed to made the web standards such that sites _couldn't_ make assumptions about the client devices
23:01:19 <b_jonas> oh right, they have a size limit too
23:01:57 <b_jonas> so a child elephant might fit, but a dragon definitely not
23:02:40 <oerjan> if you've got a dragon, why are you taking a plane tmns
23:03:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: flying might take too much time or energy otherwise. a plane is faster.
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23:03:18 <b_jonas> at least for long distances.
23:03:27 <b_jonas> but yeah, you probably don't need it if you have a dragon
23:03:35 <b_jonas> if it's not a tame dragon, but a subdued one
23:03:45 <b_jonas> then maybe you can't direct the dragon to fly
23:03:59 <boily> how many elephants in a dragon?
23:03:59 <zzo38> Gopher menus work better it doesn't need to make any assumptions about the client other than it can display the menu and text files; the client decides what way need to display work best for the device.
23:04:14 <boily> how many gophers in an elephant?
23:05:53 <boily> I think a gopher's density is approximatively the same enough to that of an elephant to be irrelevant.
23:06:08 <b_jonas> boily: in size, a dragon (gigantic) is two size categories over an elephant (large), so dragon is 4 times as large in linear size, 64 times as large in volume, but that's a very inaccurate approximation
23:06:34 <b_jonas> in weight, the difference is only like a factor of 2
23:08:22 <boily> I'd've guessed the elephant-to-dragon ratio to be higher, but what do I know, I've never seen neither of them.
23:08:37 <b_jonas> nethack weights are unrealistic
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23:08:58 <b_jonas> they're more about how difficult the item is to carry than about how much it weighs
23:09:22 <b_jonas> and dragons are absolutely impossible to carry, so it doesn't matter much how much they weigh
23:09:34 <b_jonas> it does have a little significance, but rarely comes up
23:09:56 <oerjan> boily: is it a pretzing issue?
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23:19:35 <boily> it was a sudden urge. also bought a milk carton for my cereals.
23:19:42 <shachaf> boily: are you sure you don't need some delicious rice
23:19:57 <boily> oerjan: it was only a light mapole.
23:20:17 <oerjan> is that similar to a lightsabre?
23:20:22 <boily> shachaf: ha ha ^^ sorry, no. I already packed tonight's leftovers for tomorrow.
23:21:16 <boily> oerjan: think of a mapole as a prototypesaber hth
23:21:33 <boily> shachaf: just how much did you make?
23:22:11 <shachaf> boily: maybe three or four times as much as necessary
23:24:16 <boily> oerjan: what'd'you have for supper/breakfast/whatever?
23:25:33 <oerjan> ham salad (not made by me)
23:26:02 <boily> quinthellopia. souvlakis, gyros, tzatziki, fternooners and other Greek classics?
23:26:13 <quintopia> is ham salad like chicken salad s/chicken/ham/ or is it like regular salad with ham on?
23:26:39 <quintopia> i love souvlaki, but no. commodity chain greek. salad and chicken and pasta salad.
23:26:51 <oerjan> quintopia: the former, i think? what's the difference anyway...
23:26:58 <shachaf> oerjan: what sorts of things do you make
23:27:06 <quintopia> oerjan: mainly that the latter has lettuce
23:27:24 <oerjan> shachaf: sliced bread and pizza
23:27:29 <shachaf> what's with salad and lettuce?
23:27:39 <shachaf> apparently some people think that a salad needs to have lettuce
23:27:53 <oerjan> quintopia: oh. the latter, then. it's a bit confusing because no:salat means _both_ salad and lettuce.
23:27:55 <shachaf> in many cases and many salads, lettuce is not a big improvement
23:28:10 <boily> lettuce is depressing. especially iceberg. bleh.
23:28:13 <b_jonas> nah, they specifically says “live animals (dogs and cats only)” in the rules
23:28:13 <quintopia> shachaf: regular salad has leafy greens. if it has no leafy greens, it is not regular
23:28:39 <boily> `quote topologically
23:28:39 <HackEgo> 396) <oklofok> god created the natural numbers, the rationals were done by man and the work was finally completed (topologically) by satan himself \ 1135) <boily> topologically speaking, dogs and cats are the same animals.
23:28:52 <shachaf> I had regular salad without lettuce today.
23:28:57 <boily> b_jonas: re quote 1135: elephants can be included hth
23:29:10 <boily> quintopia: what's your stance about spinach?
23:29:11 <quintopia> non-regular salads include: potato salad, cole slaw, chicken salad, tuna salad, and (the anglo-american version of) ham salad
23:29:27 <b_jonas> quintopia: non-regular in what sense?
23:29:43 <boily> quintopia: you should try making palak paneer. it's easy and delicious.
23:29:44 <quintopia> (unless it is shredded and boiled. then yecch. fresh only plox.)
23:29:56 <tswett> Around here, the word "salad" by itself pretty much always means a salad with lettuce or spinach, but there are also phrases such as "egg salad", "pasta salad", "tuna salad", "Jello salad", and so forth referring to things without either.
23:29:58 <oerjan> quintopia: the same place also has chicken salad, which also has lettuce hth
23:30:05 <boily> quintopia: boiled is bad. blanched good.
23:30:13 <shachaf> What about a salad with, say, tomatoes and cucumbers and onions and mint and that sort of thing?
23:30:17 <shachaf> Is that regular? No lettuce.
23:30:26 <quintopia> egg salad and pasta salad are alsxo good examples of non-regular salad
23:30:45 <quintopia> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_salad
23:30:50 * oerjan suddenly starts thinking the word "salad" looks fake
23:30:54 <tswett> I think I'm going to refer to everything as a type of "salad" from now on.
23:31:04 <tswett> Now I'm suddenly thinking the word "salad" looks Arabic.
23:31:17 <boily> al-salād or something?
23:31:25 <pikhq> Though it's pretty Latin.
23:31:38 <shachaf> you might be thinking of "salat" hth
23:31:42 <b_jonas> for cabin (not cargo hold) transfer, “Up to three small puppies or very small kittens may be booked as one animal and must be transported in the same container in the cabin.”
23:31:52 <b_jonas> those aren't even topologically equivalent
23:32:10 <tswett> Chili is "bean salad". Cookies are "chocolate salad". Pizza is "pepperoni salad".
23:32:13 <quintopia> the container is topologically equivalent to the container that would carry one animal
23:32:44 <tswett> I'm not sure the topology of a physical object is really well-defined.
23:32:44 <quintopia> tswett: no. just no. salad must contain a variety of ingredients (at least one a vegetable) tossed together in a bowl
23:32:59 <tswett> quintopia: Jello salad doesn't contain any vegetables.
23:33:04 <boily> I like vegetarian chili. beans, tomatoes, onions, bell peppers, tofu, olives...
23:33:14 <boily> tswett: itym aspic hth.
23:33:19 <shachaf> Bell peppers are the scow of vegetables.
23:33:24 <quintopia> tswett: true. s/vegetable/fresh plant matter/
23:33:42 <tswett> Apparently it's "a wide-beamed sailing dinghy".
23:33:46 <shachaf> "the scow of X" usually means something like the worst specimen of X.
23:33:51 <boily> shachaf: peppers of all varieties and cultivars are the tits. you can do everything with them!
23:34:04 <pikhq> I advise against using them on tits.
23:34:08 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ham_salad <-- wtf is that
23:34:18 <tswett> I like red peppers. I don't understand the purpose of green peppers.
23:34:23 <quintopia> oerjan: what comes to mind first when you say ham salad
23:34:42 <boily> quintopia: you don't like tofu and olives?
23:35:22 <quintopia> oerjan: "mayonnaise-bound meat salads"
23:35:25 <pikhq> tswett: A green bell pepper, though not at all spicy, still has quite a distinct flavor.
23:36:29 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salad_cream ?
23:36:33 <boily> tswett: green peppers are cheaper than other colours in groceries here. that's one of their purposes.
23:36:48 <boily> (also, to make proper all dressed pizza, you need the green ones.)
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23:37:08 <pikhq> It is quite reasonable to use in and of itself, though obviously no substitute for other varieties.
23:37:09 <quintopia> boily: you need the full stoplight for a proper all-dressed pizza
23:37:12 <shachaf> Speaking of emulsions, I made mayonnaise the other day.
23:37:49 <oerjan> <shachaf> Bell peppers are the scow of vegetables. <-- blasphemy!
23:38:17 <shachaf> Really, there are many foods that I dislike to lesser or greater extents.
23:38:25 <shachaf> But bell peppers are not negotiable. They ruin everything.
23:38:49 <shachaf> They have a terrible taste, their texture uncooked makes me want to vomit, their texture cooked is just disgusting.
23:38:53 <shachaf> There's nothing good about them.
23:39:10 <shachaf> They can ruin any dish. Even if you take them out, their flavor sticks around to ruin it.
23:39:11 <boily> GO TEAM BELL PEPPERS! *pom poms*
23:39:24 <quintopia> one good thing about them is that if we have a pizza party and shachaf attends, they can make it so there is more pizza for the rest of us
23:39:43 <pikhq> I wonder if this is something like cilantro or something.
23:40:00 <shachaf> quintopia: Usually people do that by putting animals on the pizza.
23:40:05 <boily> pikhq: sounds like it. people I know who dislike bell peppers really dislike them.
23:40:06 <quintopia> i found out tonight my sister thinks basil ruins pasta salad
23:40:19 <quintopia> shachaf: oh okay. that'd work too.
23:40:23 <tswett> Hmmmm, I want a place to paste a table.
23:40:27 <tswett> (inb4 "in the dining room")
23:40:45 <quintopia> but you might get paste all over the china cabinet
23:40:52 <quintopia> i recommend pasting in the garage or shop
23:40:59 <quintopia> then carrying the table back to the dining room
23:41:45 <oerjan> <quintopia> oerjan: what comes to mind first when you say ham salad <-- i suppose my brain has different slots for "salad as whole meal" and "salad as condiment". in any case, not that thing on wikipedia's picture. if it were a condiment salad, i'd expect still visible strips of ham in it.
23:41:46 <quintopia> b_jonas: i know. basil is wonderful.
23:42:11 <quintopia> oerjan: it can be made that way. there is some variety.
23:42:41 <quintopia> as long as they are small enough to be chewy instead of ...stringy?
23:43:28 <quintopia> so who wants to play some don't starve together?
23:43:55 <shachaf> I played it and then I died.
23:44:05 <shachaf> I think I was eaten by a grue.
23:44:34 <shachaf> I don't know, because I stopped playing the game a few seconds before being eaten.
23:44:55 <shachaf> In fact I still have a save file where it's dark and the screen has jagged lined around the edges and I'm about to die.
23:44:59 <shachaf> But at least I didn't starve.
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23:45:12 <quintopia> http://dont-starve-game.wikia.com/wiki/Charlie
23:45:54 <tswett> Ooh, I remember Don't Starve.
23:46:00 <tswett> I wonder if I still have a way to access it.
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00:19:07 <zzo38> I like the Caesar salad without dressing on, at some places; at other places the salad isn't as good.
00:21:02 <quintopia> it's not a caesar salad if it has no dressing.
00:21:35 <quintopia> sort of like it's not a caesar salad without dried salted anchovy
00:21:56 <quintopia> you can call it "Caesar" salad. a Caesomorph.
00:22:27 <zzo38> I just put lettuce, cheese, crouton, that's good enough
00:22:43 <quintopia> i'm not judging shachaf. there's nothing wrong with a "Caesar salad". it's just not as good as it could be.
00:23:20 <shachaf> Whichever the way the wind blows, / Whichever the way the world goes, / Is perfectly all right with me!
00:30:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Bitoven]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43183&oldid=43178 * 173.25.21.218 * (+0) fixed a small error
00:32:38 <oerjan> <zzo38> "Created" isn't even the right word, but there aren't any better words! <-- istr hebrew has a special word for "create" that _only_ applies to God hth
00:33:17 <zzo38> O, it does? I don't know Hebrew language much
00:33:24 <oerjan> so in hebrew, it's by definition the right word, but it might not be entirely clear what it means.
00:34:16 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that.
00:34:28 <oerjan> i don't know hebrew much either but i've seen it discussed somewhere.
00:37:53 <boily> quintopia: I don't think I've ever had the real deal. is it good? is it worth it?
00:38:26 <boily> (whichever your answer, probably going to try it out of sheer curiosity.)
00:55:13 <zzo38> When I try to open a .XI file with multiple samples in OpenMPT, it automatically discards the samples that aren't used in the keymap. How to fix this?
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01:56:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43184&oldid=43115 * Esowiki201529A * (+142) /* Underload to Gibberish */ new section
01:59:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43185&oldid=43184 * Esowiki201529A * (+84) /* Underload to Gibberish */
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02:04:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43186&oldid=43185 * Esowiki201529A * (+36) /* Underload to Gibberish */
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02:21:20 <oren> My custom scaler is pretty much done now
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02:37:58 <zzo38> What is that custom scaler?
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02:42:23 <oren> A customized sclaing alcorithm for emulated games
02:42:34 <oren> I'm modding it into mednafen
03:04:35 <zzo38> Finally I got vector synthesis to work properly in AmigaMML and XISYNTH.
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04:24:59 <oren> AAAAAA I can't get diagonals to work properly!
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04:28:17 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/5xgtpmiqh/
04:30:31 <oren> ^ screenshot using my scaler, and the palette 77ccff 77cc00 007700 000000 ffcccc cccc00 990000 111100
04:32:08 <oren> it mostly looks ok, but I csn't figure out a good rule to make X look right
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04:39:59 <oren> does anybody have an idea how to detect a patern like that?
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04:58:34 <zzo38> Do you have anything to add here? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/XM_optimizations
04:58:39 <zzo38> (Or anything to remove?)
05:00:34 <zzo38> Isn't it explaining it in there?
05:00:49 <Nihilumbra> Also Please don't assume I ever actually leave the channel anything that follows a name mention is logged down for 2 hours afterwarsa
05:02:12 <Jafet> oren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image_scaling#2%C3%97SaI look interesting
05:10:44 <Nihilumbra> file reduction without dataloss zzo38 ?
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05:14:56 <Decim> Oh yeah I forgot irc still worked it was having bugs
05:15:23 <zzo38> Nihilumbra: Yes, to reduce a XM file size while the music will still be same way.
05:16:02 <Decim> or I was because I couldn't log because I forgot my password
05:16:41 <Nihilumbra> That does sound useful because dataloss is very annoying at times
05:17:59 <zzo38> Do you work with .XM musics at all?
05:18:08 <Decim> I have to go to bed
05:20:27 <zzo38> It is a file format that many game programs that expect music will support (together with .MOD, .IT, and .S3M), first made up in a DOS program called Fasttracker. There are other programs too; the wiki I just linked also has another page to list some other such programs.
05:21:25 <Nihilumbra> I shall go research it in a bit but I'm making dinner and coffee
05:21:53 <zzo38> You have dinner and coffee at 11:38 PM?
05:21:54 <HackEgo> Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
05:22:16 <Nihilumbra> I never actually get around to stuff until around the late hours
05:23:47 <Nihilumbra> I've Become addicted to magic the gathering and I'm worried about this because I usually hate card games
05:24:21 <zzo38> I have made up several Magic: the Gathering cards too and also a few puzzles for Magic: the Gathering. If you have any of your own puzzle I want to see that too.
05:25:46 <Nihilumbra> I have a reanimation deck made of eldrazi's and eldrazi lords
05:26:08 <Nihilumbra> and a rainbow deck built around door to nothingness
05:26:27 <zzo38> I have no cards or decks
05:26:44 <Nihilumbra> oh and now I get all these puns abour magic that have been on the tv
05:26:55 <zzo38> Mark Rosewater made up some Magic: the Puzzling some time ago, and now other people made up new ones
05:27:35 <zzo38> http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/magic_card/puzzle.1 and also puzzle.2 and puzzle.3 in the same directory.
05:27:43 <zzo38> Those are some puzzles.
05:27:51 <Nihilumbra> sometimes my msgs don't send on screen
05:28:10 <zzo38> (If you want solutions, they are called solution.1 and so on; you should first try to figure out by yourself though.)
05:29:35 <zzo38> I would buy more Magic: the Puzzling from Wizards of the Coast if they sold more, but they don't
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05:30:40 <zzo38> As far as I know they only made one book, but there were others in issues of the Duelist magazine.
05:31:10 <zzo38> I am not interested in buying any cards but I would buy more Magic: the Puzzling.
05:31:42 <Nihilumbra> Should I drink this coffee or take a shower
05:33:19 <Nihilumbra> setting up dwarf fortress while my chicken is cooking
05:34:33 <Nihilumbra> oh and http://i.imgur.com/1yx1LXR.jpg I wonder if this would work
05:36:16 <zzo38> I can play Pokemon card too
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05:46:43 <zzo38> Can you figure out any of my puzzles?
05:47:33 <Nihilumbra> but I'm not using solutions because I want to get through this
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06:35:33 <zzo38> In mahjong what rules do you prefer dealing with whether or not the dealer can continue after a draw, and about whether or not the dealer is forced to continue?
06:36:20 <coppro> I prefer tenpai renchan
06:36:28 <coppro> agari yame for casual play, but not for a tournament setting
06:38:29 <zzo38> I like to use tenpai renchan for east round, and for south round the dealer continues after a draw regardless of tenpai or no-ten. At least, this is how I always play when I get to make these kind of decisions
06:38:31 <coppro> and tenpai yame is fine
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06:39:04 <coppro> zzo38: interesting. I know of only two locations which use that renchan rule
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06:39:45 <zzo38> Which locations is that?
06:40:23 <zzo38> (It also seems to be the rule for Washizu mahjong mode on Akagi DS)
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06:45:51 <coppro> zzo38: Montreal and Waterloo
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07:33:28 <Taneb> I had a dream that my parents won a house in a lottery but it was only half built
07:35:11 <lemurian> there is quite the potential to look at symbolism there
07:39:07 <Taneb> So I suggested we sell the house and our current house to buy a slightly better house
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07:43:43 <Jafet> According to linguists, "Santa Claus has all the attributes of a sadist"
07:43:47 <Jafet> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-order_logic#Formalizing_natural_languages
07:45:18 <Sgeo> Is -w 1 likely to be sufficient for wgeting from some random webserver somewhere
07:45:30 <Sgeo> I think the files are intended to be downloaded, not sure about in bulk like this
07:45:40 <Sgeo> I put my email in the UA
07:47:45 <Jafet> That sounds unwise
07:48:03 <Jafet> If you're concerned though, use the rate-limiting option
07:48:41 <Sgeo> I am, at 1 item/second
07:49:34 <Jafet> Hmm, I don't remember if wget's speed limit is done correctly for multiple files
07:51:13 <Sgeo> Well, it's faster than it was at 5 seconds/item
07:51:24 <Sgeo> And slower than when I didn't have a limit (for a small portion)
07:52:00 <Sgeo> The webmaster is likely someone interested in VRML, so it could start a conversation
07:54:11 <Sgeo> It... seems to be the archives of someone who themselves scraped from a server many, MANY years ago
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10:51:54 <mroman_> Although in J they are called dyadic
10:52:03 <mroman_> but I distinguish between prefix dyadic und infix dyadic
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10:59:38 <Taneb> Is a duad just a bimonoid in the bicategory of duendofunctors?
11:03:19 <mroman_> which is (min(1,2)+max(1,2))
11:05:21 <mroman_> ,:,"1m2+"1M2R{,p+p is reduce(range(0,(min(1,2)+max(1,2))), \a b -> a + b)
11:09:52 <mroman_> mainly because whether m is an Operator or the Variable m depends on the context
11:12:59 <mroman_> Taneb: is there even such a thing?
11:13:34 <J_A_Work> This is fundamentally one of my weaknesses with inventing really esoteric sort of languages: I would never remember a scheme like that, even if I designed it myself.
11:13:43 <J_A_Work> I barely remember how my own code works sometimes.
11:14:04 <boily> I guess sadly bimonoids aren't such a thing, because a·b·c is associative.
11:14:31 <boily> J_A_Wellork. remembering what you own code does is one of the Greatest Achievements a programmer can reach.
11:14:47 <mroman_> J_A_Work: I seem to be able to remember such things quite well.
11:15:25 <mroman_> I can still golf in it without having to look up the language reference most of the time
11:16:11 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, it helps that you invented it so you assigned the primitives such that you already remember their names
11:16:22 <b_jonas> it's hard to golf for everyone else
11:16:24 <J_A_Work> Well, part of it is that over the years I’ve come to realize I have genuine problems with my memory.
11:16:44 <b_jonas> even with the docs, because they're hard to read
11:17:23 <mroman_> "Defined as \/bxcy\/z[{p^+]e!}m[" <- you're referring to those things?
11:18:09 <mroman_> I could have written descriptions for those + giving their definition (because knowing the *exact* definition is very important to abuse sideeffects)
11:19:04 <mroman_> "Defined as x/Shx/\/x/x/\/P[" is my favorite
11:19:16 <mroman_> because x/ is not a regular swap :D
11:19:31 <mroman_> this builtin contains so many freaking swaps
11:19:36 <mroman_> (\/ is a regular swap though)
11:20:33 <mroman_> J_A_Work: My memore is very selective :D
11:20:52 <mroman_> but it's quite good at remembering things you wouldn't really need to
11:21:05 <mroman_> but if you ask my memory what I did this saturday you're out of luck.
11:22:40 <mroman_> In Burleqsue j2 is the builtin j + integer 1 whereas b2 is the builtin b2 :p
11:23:43 <boily> mroman_: when was the last Saturday you had?
11:26:24 <mroman_> and I was probably working
11:27:17 <mroman_> I remember watching Stargate Atlantis
11:27:46 <mroman_> at least according to netflix I'm at episode 6 now
11:28:24 <b_jonas> mroman_: not just those definitions, but that it's hard to search for even things that do have good short descriptions
11:29:34 <Taneb> Oooh, a talk on semigroups tomorrow
11:29:38 <Taneb> I know about semigroups
11:29:39 <b_jonas> like when I couldn't find the primitve that pops a single element and makes a box from it containing the single element
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11:32:42 <mroman_> also ops of the Group Dyadic2 can either be infix or prefix
11:39:14 <mroman_> it tries to parse them prefix first, then infix
11:39:28 <mroman_> but 1 isn't a legal operator so in that case you can use infix notation
11:42:12 <mroman_> "Box|bx|Any a|Put a in an empty block"
11:42:58 <b_jonas> it says "empty" whereas the box isn't empty, so I didn't find it
11:43:07 <b_jonas> it should say "singleton" or "length 1" or something
11:43:27 <mroman_> after you put a into an empty block the block isn't empty anymore :)
11:43:51 <b_jonas> do you mean it conses an element before an empty block?
11:44:40 <mroman_> you can delete elements from a block
11:45:21 <b_jonas> can you keep multiple references to a block, delete elements from the block through one reference, and see that change when read from another reference?
11:45:33 <mroman_> an implementation could do some reference counting and using copy-on-write or perform the operation on the same structure if no other references are found
11:45:53 <b_jonas> modifying them might be an optimization, sure
11:46:02 <mroman_> you could make them semi-mutable under the hood
11:46:21 <mroman_> instead of copying the whole thing when duplicating stuff like that
11:46:44 <mroman_> I'm not sure how ghc optimizes/handles those things
11:47:59 <mroman_> if I had implemented it in C I would have kept track of references.
11:48:20 <mroman_> because you only need to copy-on-write if there are other references around. Otherwise you don't need to copy it.
11:48:40 <b_jonas> std::shared_ptr can do that, it has a member function to tell if there's only one reference
11:48:53 <b_jonas> (basically it reads the reference count)
11:54:42 <b_jonas> "The past keeps getting cooler! (And there's more of it every day!)" http://www.xkcd.com/1104/
11:55:35 <mroman_> I've heard dinosauriers are actually just large chikens
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11:57:16 <b_jonas> we should add that as wisdom
11:57:54 <mroman_> `learn Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers.
11:57:57 <HackEgo> Learned 'dinosaur': Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers.
11:58:25 <b_jonas> that Asimov short story confirms this by the way
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12:21:57 <mroman_> Chickens lay eggs, Dinosaurs lay eggs therefore Dinosaurs are Chickens.
12:22:30 <mroman_> Chickens move on two legs, Humans move on two legs therefore Humans are also Chickens.
12:22:45 <mroman_> except that we don't have a gyroscopically stable head
12:22:48 <mroman_> that would be somewhat cool
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13:49:48 <coppro> anyone know any hilarious lets play videos I can put on in the background?
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14:51:49 <coppro> `run unicode "LATIN SMALL LETTER E WITH ACUTE ACCENT"
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15:14:54 <mroman_> do I need annotations without postfix ...
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15:30:51 <b_jonas> what do you mean "tar (child): compress: Cannot exec: No such file or directory"? just decompress it with gzip you stupid tar
15:31:02 <b_jonas> (luckily an explicit -z helped)
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15:48:43 <mroman_> If that doesn't work I give up.
15:49:32 <int-e> tar xzf here, j for .tar.bz2, J for tar.xz
15:51:15 * int-e wonders what using tar xf vs. tar -xf says about a person. probably nothing :)
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15:53:34 <mroman_> Of course there's also squeeze
15:55:05 <HackEgo> tar: You must specify one of the `-Acdtrux' or `--test-label' options \ Try `tar --help' or `tar --usage' for more information.
15:55:15 <HackEgo> The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf
15:56:05 <mroman_> b_jonas: -a makes it guess the compression program
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15:57:32 <b_jonas> mroman_: these days, it always guesses the compression program without anything special (though that only works if the input is seekable)
15:57:48 <b_jonas> mroman_: I generally write tar tvf for all kinds of compressed tarballs
15:57:52 <b_jonas> that works for gzip and bzip2
15:58:03 <b_jonas> but here, for a unix-compressed one, it tried to invoke compress
15:58:10 <b_jonas> which I don't have installed
15:58:26 <b_jonas> it could have just invoked gzip instead, which can read unix-compressed files
16:00:28 <mroman_> or we could have used a gui program, like the noobs we are
16:00:36 <mroman_> I do that from time to time.
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17:11:46 <ski> zzo38 : .. actually, my brother also keeps saying that it should be `d(dy/dx)/dx', but not `d^2y/dx^2' (in general)
17:22:02 <Phantom_Hoover> i did explain the idea behind the d^2y/dx^2 thing last time
17:25:11 <coppro> so is all of my thesis
17:25:20 <coppro> and in fact the entire field
17:32:28 <zzo38> Yes, I agree that d^2y/dx^2 is wrong.
17:34:30 <zzo38> It is d(dy/dx)/dx but you can also expand that into a more complicated form
17:34:41 <b_jonas> coppro: wait... do you have a thesis about calculus?
17:34:46 <coppro> b_jonas: no, graph theory
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17:37:46 <zzo38> For tar I just use "tar t" or "tar x" or "tar c" though
17:39:14 <b_jonas> c is different. if you're creating an archive, you have to explicitly tell how to compress of course
17:39:22 <b_jonas> doesn't guess in that case
17:39:36 <zzo38> I don't want it to compress. I will use an external program to compress.
17:40:05 <b_jonas> it's just convenient for me that tar can invoke the external program
17:40:57 <zzo38> To me, there is no good reason for tar to invoke external programs. (For some programs this is useful, but not for tar)
17:41:51 <b_jonas> well, there's one case when it's essential
17:41:59 <b_jonas> but not the compression case
17:42:20 <zzo38> Which case do you mean?
17:42:48 <b_jonas> it lets tar periodically invoke a program, passing some environment variables, that lets me print a status message of how far tar has got
17:42:59 <b_jonas> so I can see an approximate percentage progress when making large archives
17:43:15 <b_jonas> it's approximate because I can only give an approximate to the final size
17:44:02 <b_jonas> but it still works well enough in most cases, except when I give a very wrong estimate because I don't count linked files, but tar recognizes them and packs them only once
17:44:11 <zzo38> Can't a pipe do that too though, if you have a "checkpoint action" program that can invoke the other program (and otherwise just copies input to output)?
17:44:49 <b_jonas> (that comes up most often when I back up a directory with git executables, which has like a hundred files linked to a large executable)
17:44:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I guess that could work too
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17:57:16 <Taneb> I am very much enjoying this book "How Not To Be Wrong: The Hidden Maths Of Everyday Life"
17:59:51 <zzo38> You can use quotient rule to expand "d(dy/dx)/dx"
18:05:23 <shachaf> Taneb: how many hidden maths are there
18:08:15 <Vorpal> Taneb, what sort of things does it discuss?
18:09:56 <zzo38> Are you able to check for me on https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml exactly which permissions a logged in user who is not a member of the project is having?
18:12:03 <zzo38> Do you know if the "Roadmap" feature of Redmine can be turned off? I am not using that feature in my project. There is a list of modules to enable/disable, but that isn't one of the choices.
18:12:04 <Taneb> shachaf, all of them
18:12:15 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm currently at "Don't assume curves are lines"
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18:29:42 <oren> How much macros is too much macros?
18:30:32 <oren> I have like, 40 in this thing
18:32:44 <oren> basically, my sclaing algorithm is based on matching patterns against the local pixels... so I make macros that llow me to write the patterns directy into the code
18:33:14 <coppro> ais523: can you recommend a good, funny LP to watch?
18:34:04 <ais523> coppro: LP = Let's Play? I'm not sure, because I tend to go for informative rather than amusing
18:34:27 <ais523> basically what I do is pick a game I want to learn more about, and then look through a few LPs on YouTube until I find one that doesn't irritate me
18:34:40 <ais523> any blind Let's Play of Wario Land 4 makes good watching
18:34:44 <ais523> I look for those every now and then
18:34:53 <ais523> but it's not particularly funny, it's not like it's a particularly rage-inducing game or anything
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18:34:59 <ais523> I just like seeing how people solve it
18:35:10 <oren> Wario land 4 one of my favorite games ever
18:36:37 <coppro> I really enjoyed 3 too
18:37:14 <ais523> the best way to think about the Wario Land series is
18:37:29 <ais523> 2 and 3 are all liked by over half of players but seriously disliked by a proportion of others
18:37:37 <ais523> 4 is amazing and hardly anyone dislikes it
18:37:48 <ais523> 5 is basically 4 but a bit worse, but that doesn't make it a bad game because "4 but a bit worse" is still good
18:37:55 <ais523> and nobody can remember what 1 is lijke
18:38:01 <coppro> I wasn't aware there was a 5
18:38:32 <ais523> coppro: it's on the Wii, and called "Wario Land: Shake It!" or "Wario Land: The Shake Dimension" depending on localization
18:38:40 <ais523> and it's one of the most painfully obvious 4 clones ever
18:38:53 <ais523> with level design that's a little less inspired, and a different but arguably more interesting moveset
18:39:02 <b_jonas> ais523: are the unskippable cutscenes part of why some people hate wario land 2 or 3?
18:39:13 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean in the gameplay
18:39:21 <b_jonas> wait, is this the gameboy or the nes games?
18:39:29 <ais523> there isn't a nes wario land
18:39:38 <ais523> there's a virtual boy version that's apparently really good but hardly anyone has played it
18:39:45 <ais523> (normally considered to be the /only/ good game on the virtual boy)
18:40:12 <b_jonas> no surprise because nobody has a virtual boy
18:40:33 <b_jonas> if it's the only good game than that's understandible
18:40:37 <ais523> yes, that's because it only has one good game
18:40:54 <b_jonas> most consoles have multiple good games
18:41:13 <ais523> I know, even the unpopular ones
18:41:19 <coppro> wario land 3 was fun because of the way you had to explore old levels
18:41:31 <ais523> the virtual boy was just basically a terrible idea though, it was an attempt to make a 3D games console before the technology for that existed
18:41:45 <b_jonas> coppro: um, you can explore old but changed levels even in wario land 1
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18:42:54 <coppro> b_jonas: you can't in 2 and I don't think you can in 4?
18:43:00 <coppro> and I've never played 1
18:43:15 <ais523> coppro: you can replay old levels in 4 but there's no reason to unless you missed collectibles
18:43:23 <ais523> except for fun of course
18:43:59 <coppro> we're talking about 3 where it's part of the game, though
18:44:32 <b_jonas> coppro: in wario land 1, completing some zones can change old levels significantly, so it can be worth to explore them again. you don't strictly have to if you're not going for the best ending, but I think there are collectibles you can access only after a level has changed.
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19:11:24 <HackEgo> substructural typing/Not to be confused with structural subtyping.
19:11:31 <HackEgo> Not to be confused with substructural typing.
19:11:56 <HackEgo> firefly/FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
19:12:19 <Taneb> That is annoyingly true, but I guess is actually about channel regular FireFly ?
19:12:40 <ais523> huh, I've actually worked with substructural subtyping, I think
19:13:44 <HackEgo> FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
19:14:05 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"
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19:14:50 <FireFly> Taneb: the channel regular isn't actually a TV series, I think
19:14:50 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
19:15:04 <Taneb> FireFly, are you sure
19:16:16 <FireFly> `` rnooodl <<<'this is a test'
19:16:23 <HackEgo> perl -pe 's/([Nn])ooodl/"$1@{[o x(3+rand 7)]}dl"/ge'
19:16:40 <HackEgo> cat: bin/ngevd: No such file or directory
19:17:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
19:17:22 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
19:17:28 <HackEgo> noooodl is the correct spelling
19:17:53 <FireFly> Seems a bit excessive to pipe all wisdom through it
19:17:53 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
19:18:21 <fungot> FireFly: got url? it does almost no computation.
19:18:47 <HackEgo> )XCT5JSЈ3^_C9Um.VovR\\FFʂH-/e&[58lGD{2Vwa.>J*(bEhD*9@R7Dԛv|c_.SydNKXST4ϕኴEn_.hjƎeO=A[qD,M,$i;.6-^1JI2"\XY˯M̲~@CǛbKkˑ%](@ؿчN~vymFJfPqHیe%1^?LA$̀
19:19:04 <Phantom_Hoover> i should put it back to being a symlink to /dev/urandom, someone's sure to explain it again then
19:19:07 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, was causing issues with `pastewisdom
19:19:09 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
19:19:29 <Taneb> Which was getting to Ngevd then dissolving into random garble evermore
19:19:54 <FireFly> perhaps fix pastewisdom instead
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19:20:59 <fizzie> It was also causing issues with people doing anything wisdom/*.
19:21:05 <fizzie> Like ad-hoc grepping through.
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19:21:25 <fizzie> Or computing statistics, or whatnot.
19:24:16 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
19:24:36 <HackEgo> indexed monad/Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
19:25:44 <Melvar> Sigh. ^[%/H didn’t work.
19:27:34 <HackEgo> fternooner/fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
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19:30:18 <HackEgo> anana/ananas is the real pineapple.
19:30:41 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
19:31:22 <shachaf> java sounds like a Tanebvention to me
19:31:42 <oren> `le/rn / is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters.
19:32:54 <FireFly> «quotes» are at least better than ”quotes” and »quotes»
19:33:30 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quotation_mark#Finnish_and_Swedish we have the silliest quotation marks
19:33:32 <oren> someone should make a whitespace expansion that uses all the invisible characters in unicode
19:34:04 <shachaf> `? ../../../../../../etc/passwd
19:34:04 <HackEgo> ../../../../../../etc/passwd? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:35:39 <shachaf> Oh, it doesn't even exist.
19:35:44 <shachaf> And you can give absolute paths.
19:36:21 <HackEgo> alternatives \ java-6-openjdk
19:37:05 <HackEgo> /hackego/canary? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:37:13 <HackEgo> bin \ dev \ etc \ hackenv \ home \ lib \ lib64 \ opt \ proc \ sbin \ sys \ tmp \ usr
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19:58:33 <ais523> the canary is /executable/?
19:58:39 <ais523> wait, that's a wisdom entry
19:59:09 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 6 16:20 canary
20:01:07 <Taneb> "The natural logarithm is the one you always use if you are a mathematician or have e fingers"
20:02:15 <fizzie> The "trick" of "exploiting" `? via absolute paths is kind of amusing, given HackEgo.
20:04:38 <HackEgo> cat: ?: No such file or directory
20:04:44 <HackEgo> cat: /bin/?: No such file or directory
20:05:05 <HackEgo> / \ /proc/irq/9 \ /proc/irq/8 \ /proc/irq/7 \ /proc/irq/6 \ /proc/irq/5 \ /proc/irq/4 \ /proc/irq/3 \ /proc/irq/2 \ /proc/irq/1 \ /proc/irq/0 \ find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ /proc/1 \ /proc/1/task/1 \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permi
20:05:17 <ais523> double escaping here we go
20:05:22 -!- olsner has left ("Leaving").
20:05:22 <int-e> fizzie: as you can see there's nothing HackEgo knows about exploits
20:05:30 -!- olsner has joined.
20:05:45 <HackEgo> find: `/proc/tty/driver': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/task/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fd': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/fdinfo': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/1/ns': Permission denied \ find: `/proc/2/task/2/fd': Permissi
20:06:18 <HackEgo> bin/` bin/̊ bin/! bin/? bin/¿ bin/' bin/@ bin/؟ bin/ bin/e bin/h bin/q ibin/c ibin/k quines/c quines/q wisdom/` wisdom/ wisdom/? wisdom/@ wisdom/\ wisdom/☃ wisdom/⊥ wisdom/⌨ wisdom/ wisdom/🐐 wisdom/ wisdom/1 wisdom/a wisdom/å wisdom/Å wisdom/c wisdom/i wisdom/k wisdom/ø wisdom/Ø wisdom/u
20:06:23 <fizzie> Oh, int-e changed the canary.
20:06:32 <fizzie> I was so confused, it was chirp not long ago.
20:06:49 <int-e> fizzie: just checking ;)
20:06:58 <olsner> the canary tells you when the mine is broken
20:07:09 <HackEgo> willkommen/Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
20:07:29 * int-e doesn't know the history of the canary file, is it worth checking?
20:07:41 <fizzie> It's not terribly interesting.
20:07:45 <ais523> int-e: try to delete it
20:08:01 <fizzie> It's been chrip, tweet, foo, and now cough. And also empty.
20:08:14 <ais523> its defining feature is that it exists
20:08:25 <ais523> but you can change it arbitrarily otherwise
20:08:30 <int-e> well at least it's changed a bit over time... http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/0c6f3ec8633b/canary
20:08:43 <ais523> `` ln -sf canary canary
20:08:48 <HackEgo> ln: `canary' and `canary' are the same file
20:08:52 <fizzie> Oh, and it's been "now this file will be strangely hard to empty completely" for a while.
20:09:04 <ais523> why won't ln let me make a symlink that points at itself
20:09:11 <ais523> `` ln -sf canary temp-canary
20:09:20 <ais523> `` mv temp-canary canary
20:09:21 <HackEgo> mv: `temp-canary' and `canary' are the same file
20:09:35 <ais523> wait, is it making a /hardlink/?
20:09:42 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:10 temp-canary -> canary
20:10:33 <ais523> `` mv temp-canary looptest/canary
20:10:46 <ais523> `` mv --target-directory=. looptest/canary
20:10:53 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:12 canary
20:11:14 <ais523> `` (cd looptest; mv --target-directory=.. canary)
20:11:19 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:12 canary
20:11:31 <ais523> I wonder if the canary being a symlink is impossible for the same reason it can't be deleted
20:11:36 <ais523> `` (cd looptest; mv --target-directory=.. canary; ls -l ../canary)
20:11:37 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:13 ../canary -> canary
20:11:45 <ais523> yes, I guess that's it
20:12:02 <fizzie> I could check, but it might be a "-f test", kind of.
20:12:13 <ais523> yep, that's probably what it is
20:12:22 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
20:12:27 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:13 canary
20:12:30 <ais523> shachaf: see, it didn't work
20:12:32 <shachaf> Why would it give you a "same file" error?
20:12:44 <ais523> it shouldn't, they're different files
20:12:55 <ais523> and it didn't when I expressed it in terms of --target-directory
20:13:12 <int-e> so ... if the canary is gone, hackego doesn't commit the changes?
20:14:16 <fizzie> `` (rm canary; ln -sf canary canary; ls -l canary)
20:14:18 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:15 canary -> canary
20:14:29 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 6 Jun 8 20:16 canary
20:14:44 <ais523> wait, you can link a nonexistent file to itself?
20:14:52 <ais523> just not overwriting one that already exists?
20:15:05 <ais523> (I mean, I know you can syscall-wise, this is about what ln will and won't do)
20:15:10 <pikhq> The contents of a symlink are actually an arbitrary string.
20:15:12 <fizzie> I'm guessing that might just be some kind of a very narrow and explicit check. Although nobody's trying to prevent multi-step loops, so...
20:15:18 <pikhq> ln does not validate the arguments.
20:15:28 <ais523> [21:10] <ais523> `` ln -sf canary canary
20:15:29 <pikhq> (ln *may not* validate the arguments. :))
20:15:29 <ais523> [21:10] <HackEgo> ln: `canary' and `canary' are the same file
20:15:37 <ais523> pikhq: HackEgo's ln disagrees with you
20:15:55 <ais523> perhaps this was some generic "same file" which was added to all the GNU utilities
20:16:03 <ais523> without checking to see if it actually made sense
20:16:05 <HackEgo> ln (GNU coreutils) 8.13 \ Copyright (C) 2011 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ License GPLv3+: GNU GPL version 3 or later <http://gnu.org/licenses/gpl.html>. \ This is free software: you are free to change and redistribute it. \ There is NO WARRANTY, to the extent permitted by law. \ \ Written by Mike Parker and David MacKenzie.
20:16:06 <pikhq> HackEgo's ln is incorrect.
20:16:14 <fizzie> It's the same as my ln.
20:16:25 <ais523> admittedly I didn't know GNU for certain
20:16:33 <shachaf> `` rm canary; mkdir canary
20:16:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ mkdir: cannot create directory `canary': File exists
20:16:44 <ais523> but it was a good guess, partly based on probability, parltly based on the fact that it quotes like `this'
20:16:52 <fizzie> shachaf: The reasons for that message are ridiculous.
20:16:53 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 8 20:18 canary
20:17:01 <fizzie> ais523: I puzzled that out; it's the two-step commit.
20:17:06 <shachaf> fizzie: I think we've discussed them before.
20:17:09 <fizzie> ais523: Although I've forgotten the details.
20:17:14 <ais523> fizzie: so what is canary /actually/ in the FS?
20:17:33 <fizzie> But the message is confusing, because it's from the second iteration.
20:17:57 <ais523> `` ln -s .. canary/canary
20:18:03 <ais523> now it's a directory that contains itself
20:18:08 <ais523> that's about as close as I can get to what I was aiming to do
20:18:31 <ais523> could we exploit this to delete the canary
20:18:47 <Elronnd> a directory that contains itself doesn't work
20:18:52 <fizzie> I think not, because from what I recall, the second iteration is strictly for the output.
20:18:57 <ais523> `` ls canary/canary/canary/canary
20:18:59 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ share \ src \ twolines \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom
20:19:04 <olsner> `` ln -d canary/test canary
20:19:04 <Elronnd> Programs will complain about "too many of symbolic link"
20:19:04 <HackEgo> ln: accessing `canary/test': No such file or directory
20:19:12 <olsner> `` ln -d canary canary/test
20:19:13 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create hard link `canary/test' => `canary': Operation not permitted
20:19:13 <ais523> `` ln -sf . canary/canary
20:19:14 <HackEgo> ln: `.' and `canary/canary/.' are the same file
20:19:25 <ais523> `` ln -sf . canary/canary
20:19:32 <ais523> `` ls canary/canary/canary/canary
20:19:34 <shachaf> fizzie: Did that hg bug ever get fixed?
20:19:51 <fizzie> shachaf: I've forgotten the details of that, too.
20:20:03 <shachaf> So have I, but you filed a bug about it.
20:20:21 <fizzie> Ohh. That rings a bell.
20:20:27 <shachaf> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/pull-request/3/fix-repository-cleanup-wrt-spaces-in-paths/diff
20:20:44 <int-e> ah, 2012 <shachaf> zzo38: Did you ever finish your Magic: The Gathering software?
20:20:53 <fizzie> I wrote some kind of a patch, but there might have been some uncertainty whether it was throgouh enough.
20:21:30 <shachaf> 2012 was before I ever played Magic: The Gathering.
20:21:43 <shachaf> I think zzo38 had a programming language based on it or something.
20:22:50 <int-e> shachaf: http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2012-03-18.txt
20:23:17 <shachaf> I believe you but I wonder why you brought it up.
20:23:19 <int-e> but I actually found it interesting because the idea is still around
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20:47:35 <tswett> I just realized. Performing mathematical proofs using restricted axioms is cross-platform development.
20:52:57 <ais523> I like how profound that statement sounds
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21:03:26 <b_jonas> tswett: yes, and in theory it could be useful for portability if we meet alien species that have developped mathematics before they learnt it from us
21:14:06 <tswett> Aliens who, for some reason, developed a type of mathematics besides classical mathematics.
21:16:46 <tswett> Perhaps they consider negation to be a very strange and advanced concept.
21:21:22 <tswett> If I met an alien, and found that they didn't know about "our" mathematics, I would wonder why the heck not.
21:21:35 <pikhq> There's only so insane they can get without losing physics.
21:22:22 <tswett> Though I wonder how mathematics would have developed in a universe with no concept of space or quantity.
21:22:36 <pikhq> (all bets are off if we meet said alien species in a context where they're not likely to have cause for much in the way of physics)
21:23:17 <tswett> It's not too hard to imagine a universe with no concept of space. It's harder to imagine a universe with no concept of quantity.
21:23:29 <tswett> Rather, a universe where the concept of quantity is relatively useless.
21:24:01 <tswett> Maybe it would be a universe where everything is unique, and so it doesn't make any sense to have "two of something".
21:25:06 <tswett> And where whenever you divide things into classes, there are necessarily infinitely many classes and infinitely many things in each class.
21:26:17 <tswett> How about a universe that's very small, and so it doesn't contain very many of anything? There are still quantities, but all of them are very small.
21:26:49 <tswett> Like a universe consisting entirely of two incorporeal people.
21:28:11 <Phantom_Hoover> what about a universe where everyone is a humanities student
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21:54:42 <shachaf> `le/rn universal property/Universal properties are the best.
21:54:44 <HackEgo> Learned «universal property»
21:55:52 <HackEgo> monads/Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
21:56:27 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
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21:58:04 <Taneb> tswett, while I can imagine an alien culture having much of the same mathematics as us I cannot see it having the same notation
21:58:50 <b_jonas> Taneb: exactly. and even if they have the same mathematics actually, but with very different notation, we have to prove rigorously that the two mathematics are the same,
21:59:07 <b_jonas> like, prove that their integers are exactly the same as our integers, etc.
21:59:21 <b_jonas> That's where the portability comes in.
21:59:43 <b_jonas> And very often, the two mathematics won't be the same, but only equivalent.
21:59:48 <lemurian> it might be a completely diferent system, based on qualities and influence, perhaps and less on quantity as something is quantifiable
21:59:54 <b_jonas> And you have to find and prove what the equivalences are exactly.
22:00:48 <b_jonas> I for one also think that they'd probably have our mathematics, but it might take a lot of time to figure out how their notation corresponds to ours and find the equivalences.
22:01:51 <lemurian> i would like to believe that an advanced culture doesnt have the need for such complexity in their number systems
22:02:15 <Taneb> lemurian, unfortunately, we are the most advanced culture we know about
22:02:52 <lemurian> that's a head strong assumption to say humanity is the most advanced culture,
22:03:26 <Taneb> It's certainly the most advanced culture that I know about
22:04:10 <lemurian> same here, but then again our exposure to off-planet culture is virtually non-existant,
22:06:10 <Taneb> My point is, our sample size of advanced cultures is 1
22:06:31 <Taneb> The only assumption we can make of that is that the way we do things is certainly a way to do things
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22:07:10 <Taneb> So it stands to reason that another advanced culture could do maths in a similar way to us
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22:07:37 <Taneb> And as people have probably thought very hard about this, other ways to do mathematics seem not to really exist
22:07:55 <lemurian> eh, i feel it's deeper than just thinking really hard
22:07:58 <Taneb> Or at least not be particularly useful
22:08:27 <b_jonas> lemurian: I didn't necessarily say off-planet
22:08:38 <b_jonas> I include alien future species on Earth
22:09:09 <b_jonas> it's not very likely that we'll meet such species, and even if we will, they might have learnt maths from us
22:09:22 <b_jonas> I'm just saying I don't insist on off-planet
22:10:31 <b_jonas> Taneb: the important part isn't that other ways of doing maths doesn't exist, but that we believe that our way of doing maths actually exists, up to equivalence
22:12:57 <lemurian> which begs to imply perhaps the physical world which humanity has designed and been architect to, our physical world is only as good as the math systems behind it, and behind any number system are beings who give meaning to that number system, it's as if we are creating mathmatics all of our own projections based on the belief in those systsms as they are agreed upon between beings
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22:14:07 <Taneb> b_jonas, doesn't our way of doing maths trivially exist?
22:15:51 <nys> the key question is whether you can be productive without pythagoras
22:16:10 <Taneb> I think the answer to that is also trivially yes
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22:16:15 <ais523> Taneb: we don't know it's internally consistent
22:16:24 <Taneb> ais523, doesn't mean that it doesn't exist
22:16:57 <Taneb> The wrong answer is still an answer
22:17:27 <lemurian> one two thre, one of something, then two of that something, and so on
22:17:38 <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
22:17:50 <lemurian> or the influence of that individual item being quantified
22:18:21 <ais523> `addquote <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
22:18:21 <lemurian> i believe so Taneb, it would just look different
22:18:23 <HackEgo> 1242) <Taneb> Could we achieve SETI with only naive set theory?
22:18:31 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's not the way of doing maths that matters here, but the maths we got. the question is whether that maths exists, as in, that it's always existed and we're just discovering it, rather than inventing something new.
22:18:39 <b_jonas> always existed as in timelessly
22:19:45 <Taneb> Ugh, this is dangerously close to philosophy
22:20:12 <zzo38> I would think, whatever alien monsters are studying mathematics, must figure out the same kind of things although it might come out in an entirely different way, completely different notations (if there are any notations at all!), and perhaps might not consider natural numbers as "natural", but it is still going to be the same natural numbers even if it isn't "natural".
22:20:34 <zzo38> Nevertheless natural numbers are a common thing that can get in the mathematics
22:21:41 <zzo38> (For example in category theory you have the finite discrete categories, which add, multiply, exponent just like they are natural numbers.)
22:22:24 <zzo38> At least, that is my opinion. (I don't know everything, either.)
22:22:59 <ais523> zzo38: I find that nonnegative integers are the most common sorts of numbers that I find naturally arising out of esolangs
22:23:07 <lemurian> its good to philosophize and konversate
22:23:12 <ais523> (I don't like saying "natural number" beacuse that's ambiguous)
22:24:03 <HackEgo> 1241) <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist <ais523> they're so unnatural
22:24:22 <ais523> that's a good quote, because I didn't realise the pun at the time
22:24:33 <Phantom_Hoover> ais523, well obviously, they're the free monoid on one variable
22:24:56 <ais523> I think some people might have different opinions of "the easiest thing that exists"
22:25:03 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, I know some who would argue that they are in fact the free semigroup on one variable
22:25:12 <b_jonas> If you want to go more specific, my belief is that the first chapters of the Book is an introduction to mathematics in a way that's equivalent to ours, though it might be using very different notation, and of course later chapters of the Book contain mathematics in all other notations too.
22:25:19 <ais523> OK #esoteric please tell me whether monoids and semigroups are the same thing or not
22:25:24 <b_jonas> It even contains mathematics that isn't too natural.
22:25:32 <b_jonas> ais523: I think they aren't
22:25:35 <ais523> I've seen multiple opinions on each side
22:25:36 <Taneb> ais523, monoids are semigroups that have the property of identity
22:25:39 <ais523> if they aren't, then what is the difference?
22:25:46 <ais523> wait, semigroups don't have an identity?
22:26:11 <b_jonas> so is it an overloaded term like "ring" where some people assume an identity
22:26:12 <ais523> so they're basically just things that are associative and have no other properties?
22:26:22 <ais523> rings have two identities :-P
22:26:32 <Taneb> Rings half precisely 1.8 identities
22:26:41 <variable> b_jonas: possibly; I've never heard it said that semi-groups have identities, but wouldn't be shocked if people assume it
22:26:45 <zzo38> What I meant is that it might be considered not as natural at all except those who would study mathematics a lot might think it "natural" in those contexts otherwise you probably won't. But, I agree that it would be the most common to "naturally arise" from many kind of mathematical things.
22:26:51 <b_jonas> it's probably not overloaded
22:26:56 <b_jonas> and never means identity required
22:27:02 <b_jonas> because we have "monoid" for that
22:27:11 <zzo38> Surely, I would think, even alien monsters and whatever else, would figure that out too.
22:27:15 <b_jonas> mind you, we also have ZZ-modulus to mean a ring with identity
22:27:25 <Taneb> b_jonas, or "ring with identity"
22:27:37 <b_jonas> Taneb: nah, that's too many syllables, people are lazy
22:27:47 <b_jonas> Z-module is only two syllables
22:28:29 <Taneb> Also, I think natural numbers are the set recursively defined as N := finite sequence of N
22:28:44 <zzo38> They might not even have a word (if they have words at all) for subtraction, other than "inverse of addition", for example.
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22:28:57 <zzo38> Even with that definition, then you need to define the set, sequence, finite, etc
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22:31:32 <zzo38> However, in some stuff in mathematics the "infinite natural numbers" arise just as well as proper natural numbers would
22:32:34 <b_jonas> which kind of infinite natural numbers?
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22:34:43 <lemurian> it would imply the kind that increase or decrease endlessly in either direction
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22:37:34 <zzo38> In other stuff there is the proper natural numbers which aren't infinite
22:37:55 <Taneb> Natural numbers that allow infinity do not have induction
22:39:08 <zzo38> Yes, that is not actually natural numbers, I know, it hasn't the induction (unless you can make the kind that does have induction? I don't quite know)
22:40:30 <zzo38> In category theory you have finite discrete categories, and then there are also infinite discrete categories, and categories which are not discrete categories, but you can still add, multiply, exponent.
22:40:53 <zzo38> Maybe you could also define factorial as a category of bijective endofunctors
22:40:56 <b_jonas> ah, it's that bug again. whew.
22:41:07 <b_jonas> (just some bug in my own stuff)
22:41:22 <b_jonas> I thought it was some other problem.
22:41:55 <zzo38> And, if you have real numbers, you also have the natural numbers because you have the multiplicative and additive identity and you can repeatedly add it up, multiply, exponent, and work just like natural numbers, too.
22:43:12 <zzo38> There are also many other examples of how you will arise natural numbers out of mathematics, probably including many that I don't know, and perhaps other people also don't know yet
22:43:33 <zzo38> See? What do *you* think???
22:55:25 <Sgeo> I think IVN is terrible
22:55:47 <tswett> I've discovered how to define a mathematical textbook.
22:55:58 <tswett> A mathematical textbook is a mathematical paper which contains at least one exercise.
22:56:49 <tswett> Now, I can imagine an alien culture failing to define the concept of an infinite set.
22:57:02 <tswett> (Rather, failing to define the concept of a set in such a way that there exist infinite sets.)
22:57:30 <zzo38> Yes, but maybe there must be some mathematical way to do it, but perhaps what seems obviously to them is something quite different to our own.
22:58:15 <tswett> They'd express Euclid's theorem the way that Euclid did.
22:58:23 <tswett> "For every set of prime numbers, there is a prime number not in the set."
22:58:45 <zzo38> Yes, like that is a way
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23:47:07 <oren> just had a phone technical interview
23:47:30 <oren> "What is the command to tell what directory you are in?"
23:48:14 <zzo38> On UNIX it is pwd and on DOS/Windows it is CD
23:48:19 <oren> "What is the difference between TCP and UDP?"
23:48:37 <shachaf> What is the difference between TCP and UDP?
23:48:59 <shachaf> One time I had a job interview where they probably decided not to hire me because I said wrong things about TCP.
23:49:10 <b_jonas> oren: see https://rekrowten.wordpress.com/list-of-network-jokes/
23:49:21 <b_jonas> specifically the TCP & UDP section
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00:07:42 <tswett> I scoured the TCP & UDP section to make sure it didn't contain "I'd tell you a UDP joke, but you might not get it."
00:08:04 <tswett> That joke is incorrect. It implies that TCP guarantees delivery. This is not the case.
00:08:51 <shachaf> That joke is not incorrect.
00:10:01 <ais523> does TCP guarantee that if the recipient doesn't get a packet, they won't get any subsequent packets either?
00:10:07 <zzo38> Doesn't seem to imply that from the joke?
00:10:22 <zzo38> It says nothing about TCP anyways
00:10:30 <tswett> ais523: pretty sure, yeah.
00:11:26 <tswett> What's the nice thing about a UDP joke? If you don't get it, you don't have to hear it again and again until you do.
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00:12:31 <shachaf> ais523: Well, a byte in the TCP stream, not a packet.
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00:50:47 <oren> FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF
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01:10:34 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf irc.dal.net.)
01:11:03 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/auf .*/auf EFnet oder DALnet.)/' wisdom/willkommen
01:11:08 <HackEgo> Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
01:21:55 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
01:22:04 <HackEgo> total 0 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 1 Jun 8 20:21 canary -> .
01:23:08 <oerjan> `` echo test >test; rm canary; mv test canary
01:23:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory
01:23:32 <HackEgo> total 4 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 1 Jun 8 20:21 canary -> . \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 5 Jun 9 01:24 test
01:24:55 <oerjan> `` rm canary; echo test >canary
01:24:56 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `canary': Is a directory \ bash: canary: Is a directory
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01:25:37 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ share \ src \ twolines \ Wierd \ wisdom \ wisdom
01:26:18 <HackEgo> total 4 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 9 01:27 canary
01:26:48 -!- yorick has joined.
01:26:57 <oerjan> `` ls rmdir canary; echo hm >canary
01:26:58 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access rmdir: No such file or directory \ canary: \ canary \ bash: canary: Is a directory
01:27:05 <oerjan> `` rmdir canary; echo hm >canary
01:27:06 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `canary': Directory not empty \ bash: canary: Is a directory
01:27:51 <oerjan> `` rmdir canary; echo hm >canary
01:27:52 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `canary': No such file or directory
01:28:11 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 3 Jun 9 01:29 canary
01:29:24 <oerjan> `` rm canary; mv test canary
01:29:32 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 5 Jun 9 01:31 canary
01:29:38 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access test: No such file or directory
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01:33:26 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
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01:37:23 <HackEgo> total 0 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 1 Jun 9 01:38 canary -> .
01:38:25 <ais523> oerjan: what are you trying to do?
01:39:11 <oerjan> just testing if there was a loophole in the canary checking
01:39:37 <oerjan> which there didn't seem to be, but first i had to undo the mess y'all created today
01:40:31 <ais523> I wanted to make the canary a symlink to itself but it can't be a symlink
01:40:54 <oerjan> did you test making it a symlink to something else?
01:41:57 <oerjan> (otherwise i'm going to call the evidence insufficient)
01:42:06 <ais523> no, but I'm pretty sure that that was the problem
01:42:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:42:33 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 5 Jun 9 01:43 canary
01:42:33 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 5 Jun 9 01:43 canary
01:42:59 <ais523> `` (rm canary; ln -s /bin/wisdom canary; ls -l canary)
01:43:01 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 11 Jun 9 01:44 canary -> /bin/wisdom
01:43:07 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 5 Jun 9 01:44 canary
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01:43:13 <ais523> is that sufficient for you?
01:43:17 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
01:43:39 <HackEgo> total 0 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 1 Jun 9 01:44 canary -> .
01:46:14 <oerjan> <ais523> could we exploit this to delete the canary <-- oh you had the same idea :P
01:57:49 <oren> you know your macros have gone too far when you start needing to use a macro like
01:58:12 <oren> #define ap(a,b...) a(b)
01:58:16 <oren> #define ap2(a,b...) a(b)
01:58:18 <oren> #define ap3(a,b...) a(b)
01:59:51 <zzo38> Sometimes you would want to define macro in two difference ways to parse include files in many different ways.
02:00:24 <ais523> oren: that's GNU syntax right?
02:00:31 <ais523> and I assume you have to use multiple different macros so that you can nest them?
02:01:14 <ais523> hmm, can you use macro expansion to produce the line number part of #line directives?
02:01:24 <ais523> if so, you could probably include the same file multiple times with different line numbers
02:01:41 <ais523> and then use token pasting and recursive includes to create different macro variants
02:01:49 <ais523> except that the left half of a #define can't be macro-expanded, meh
02:04:20 <oren> I think there's an option to gcc to run the preprocessor twice?
02:05:19 <ais523> still wouldn't work, I think
02:05:41 <ais523> if gcc had an option to run the preprocessor repeatedly until it reached a fixed point, on the other hand…
02:06:37 <pikhq> Yeah, that's been demonstrated.
02:06:53 <zzo38> Or if you can allowed to make _CPP("x(%d)",42) to allow it to execute preprocessor again a second time and expand x(42) into its place instead.
02:07:01 <pikhq> Someone actually submitted to IOCCC something that was TC in such an environment IIRC.
02:09:02 <pikhq> Ah yes, http://www.ioccc.org/2001/herrmann1.hint
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02:45:27 <Wallacoloo> Are there any esoteric instruction sets out there in which the instruction length is 1-bit?
02:46:00 <constant> Wallacoloo: there is http://esolangs.org/wiki/TOD (language, not ISA) but there are also 1-bit instruction length arches
02:47:52 <ais523> there's also the various 1L variants
02:48:06 <ais523> although those are two-dimensional
02:48:25 <Wallacoloo> I'm pretty new here, ais523: what's 1L?
02:48:28 <ais523> and the turning tarpits
02:48:31 <ais523> TOD is basiaclly one of those
02:48:35 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/1L
02:53:51 <Wallacoloo> So the idea that most intrigues me is something like bit-bit-jump, in which the underlying system doesn't really need to implement any logic functions (i.e. no ALU, no counters like a PC), but reduced to a 1-bit instruction length. I've been trying to think of ways to achieve that, but to no avail yet.
02:55:02 <ais523> hmm, this reminds me of http://esolangs.org/wiki/MiniMAX but that doesn't scale down to one bit
02:59:18 <Wallacoloo> ais523: Similar, although that one requires the interpreter / circuitry to implement an adder (for the relative jumps).
02:59:57 <ais523> the idea behind minimax is that all the operations it needs happen to be single x86 instructions
03:00:01 <ais523> (if ones that aren't used that much)
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04:11:21 <ais523> quintopia: oh yes, I hadn't thought of that
04:11:31 <ais523> although it doesn't really have two commands, so much as one command and an opening paren
04:11:38 <ais523> (you can figure out where the closing ones are by context)
04:11:48 <ais523> so it's a tree structure rather than a linear program
04:11:51 <ais523> Wallacoloo: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Jot
04:12:29 <quintopia> ais523: but an opening parenthesis is an operator. push to stack or w/e.
04:13:02 <ais523> quintopia: forward-polish is quite hard to express as a stack machine
04:13:07 <ais523> I guess "jot written backwards" works
04:13:55 <zzo38> In the Dungeons&Dragons game I tend to use both mundane and magical stuff to accomplish something, but this can include powers that are not my own such as hiding a wand I have stolen (I didn't know its function) under a door (which I have previously cast mirror object on to reverse its hinges), so that when they open it the wand will affect them, or deliberately standing in the opponent's slowing field and firing a flaming arrow, in order to trick t
04:14:02 <ais523> quintopia: I guess that's a different but equivalent langauge
04:14:54 <quintopia> thanks zzo38, now i want to play a round of delver, but i need to go to bed...
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04:18:38 <zzo38> Usually the mundane though when it seem possible or easily enough, including using mundane utilities on magical stuff (such as writing additional tally marks on a magical device I do not own), or that there are various costs associated with magical powers, such as time (for everything really though), using up slots/power-points (except for mind-blast which uses only time, and anti-magic amulet which must disable everyone's magic including my own, an
04:20:45 <zzo38> Or sometimes I put in my own costs/limitations to make it more interesting.
04:23:34 <zzo38> The magic might also be suppressed, interrupted, altered, or countered, though; those are other thing to consider when dealing with maical stuff...!!!
04:24:11 <Wallacoloo> asi523 / quintopia: Thanks for the link. Regardless, Jot looks interesting, though it's gonna take me some time to figure it out since I'm not familiar with the system being used to describe the language's grammar.
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04:40:32 <quintopia> Wallacoloo: there's also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Bitwise_Cyclic_Tag if you're okay with a separate data queue.
04:48:39 <HackEgo> fact/facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
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04:57:19 <ais523> actually is BCT turing-complete starting from an empty queue?
04:57:28 <ais523> it has three commands, though, really
04:59:30 <oerjan> since the action on an empty queue is always to halt immediately...
05:00:58 <oerjan> also, neither command can work on an empty queue.
05:13:21 <HackEgo> endomorphism/Endomorphisms are just morphisms which compose with themselves.
05:14:00 <zzo38> Is my definition of a factorial of a category correct, or is it all wrong?
05:19:17 <zzo38> What are you trying to do, toss a coin?
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05:27:45 <oerjan> zzo38: asking fungot the answer to your question, hth
05:27:45 <fungot> oerjan: there's a good reason to learn the scheme way
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05:35:10 <zzo38> oerjan: That isn't a very good way you should try to answer the question properly
05:36:02 <shachaf> zzo38: What is your definition of a factorial of a category?
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05:36:48 <oerjan> zzo38: no i shouldn't, my brain wouldn't be able to. also what shachaf said.
05:37:33 <ais523> how is ^bool implemented? hardcoded funge?
05:37:54 <ais523> neither BF nor Underload can even do PRNGs in a one-time-run process because they have no way to seed
05:38:03 <oerjan> ais523: it has to be, neither interpreted language supports it
05:38:16 <shachaf> Another option is that it always says No.
05:38:28 <fungot> (Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !)S
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05:38:37 <ais523> yep, ^show would have worked if it wasn't hardcoded
05:41:02 <zzo38> I defined as the category of bijective endofunctors of category
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05:50:55 <oerjan> zzo38: sounds reasonable for finite sets at least
06:07:31 <zzo38> And then how to do with infinite sets?
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06:33:04 <Deewiant> ais523: https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98#L202
06:33:05 <fungot> Deewiant: i was going to mention another idea: provide an environment where all modifiers function has been given a meaning ( at runtime) before it's encountered in program flow, like, well, 44 fixed the properties dialog."
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06:49:15 <Sgeo_> Maybe I should just learn VRML
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07:55:41 <HackEgo> cat: bin/Complaints: No such file or directory
07:55:47 <mroman_> `run find ./ | grep Complaints
07:55:57 <HackEgo> ./bin/complaints \ ./bin/complain \ ./.hg/store/data/complaints.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/complaints.i \ ./.hg/store/data/bin/complain.i \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/completion \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/completion/git-completion.tcsh.i \ ./.hg/store/data/git-master/contrib/completion/git-completion.bash.i \ ./.hg/store/data/g
07:56:13 <ais523> I thought `complain sent it to /dev/null
07:56:22 <HackEgo> wc: Complaints: No such file or directory
07:56:28 <HackEgo> wc: Complaints: No such file or directory
07:56:42 <HackEgo> print_args_or_input "$@" >> Complaints; echo Complaint filed. Thank you.
07:56:53 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how new that is
07:57:25 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access Complaints: No such file or directory
07:57:44 <mroman_> `run echo Hi >> Complaints
07:58:10 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
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08:03:52 <mroman_> I hope the "legacy tax" passes this weekend.
08:05:37 <mroman_> I like how they say that it's a "family unfriendly"-tax
08:07:03 <mroman_> Because I doubt most families have enough to bequeath for the legacy tax being applied to it.
08:07:22 <mroman_> Since it is only applied for >2. Mio.
08:11:35 <mroman_> except that it is retroactive (?). That's not really a nice thing to do.
08:12:57 <oren> mroman: the rich families can hide their money in a foriegn bank, can't they?
08:13:17 <mroman_> but the new "legacy tax" would actually be less than what most Cantons have
08:13:28 <mroman_> most cantons have around 25% to 30% legacy tax
08:13:40 <mroman_> whereas the new state wide legacy tax would only be 20%
08:13:53 <mroman_> (which is why most Cantons don't really want that because it means they'll loose money)
08:14:01 <mroman_> so rich people generally profit from this.
08:14:15 <oren> I think taxing the rich usually doesn't do much good because the rich are so mobile
08:14:44 <mroman_> Well, if you're rich then this new tax shouldn't bother you
08:14:51 <mroman_> because the new tax will be less
08:15:13 <oren> I meant in general
08:16:44 <mroman_> The super rich ones are certainly very mobile, yes.
08:20:58 <mroman_> most cantons don't have a legacy tax for passing it on to direct children
08:21:56 <mroman_> with the new tax you can pass on 4 Mio. to your children tax-free.
08:22:41 <mroman_> oren: I think the general argument is that since everybody has to pay tax on what he earns peolpe who "earn" money by inherting it should do the same
08:24:07 <mroman_> oren: not only the rich ones. You could hide money as well.
08:24:51 <mroman_> but wealth tax is so low that somebody with just a little money doesn't really have enough incentive to do that.
08:28:20 <mroman_> "95% of all humans are sick"
08:28:26 <mroman_> Well, that doesn't surprise me at all.
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08:29:46 <mroman_> A lot of people already have Myopia/Hyperopia
08:30:04 <mroman_> I'm surprised it isn't 99.314159%
08:30:55 <mroman_> " Myopia prevalence was re- ported to be 50.3 "
08:33:06 <mroman_> also on average one ot ouf 10 has diabetes
08:33:36 <mroman_> although that depends on the country you live in
08:33:45 <mroman_> some apparentely have a prevalence of up to 20%.
08:34:00 <mroman_> fungot: Do you love statistics as much as I do?
08:34:01 <fungot> mroman_: welcome back riastradh, you have 1 message. riastradh says: i've just started eatting meat again, i managed to read
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08:35:31 <mroman_> oh. and don't forget caries.
08:37:50 <mroman_> Unfunny fact: People get sicker the older they get.
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08:44:50 <mroman_> Do specific phobias count as a single condition or a condition for each specific phobia?
08:45:51 <zzo38> What kind of specific phobias?
08:47:42 <mroman_> arachnophobia and the like
08:48:04 <mroman_> It's technically a medical condition.
08:49:01 <zzo38> I don't know the answer
08:49:40 <zzo38> But, maybe, there are cases where it is a single condition as well as cases where the condition is separate. I don't really know, though.
08:51:18 <mroman_> For example if it's an underlying personality disorder or a general anxiety disorder
08:51:38 <mroman_> and they count "headache" as a disease as well.
08:51:44 <mroman_> who doesn't have headaches
08:52:17 <mroman_> although I'm not sure if they only count chronic headaches
08:52:54 <mroman_> http://www.who.int/healthinfo/global_burden_disease/2004_report_update/en/
08:54:15 <mroman_> infertility is a class 3 disability
08:55:46 <mroman_> iron-deficiency is very common
09:00:30 <oren> cataracts are also probably very common
09:02:01 <oren> I only have 25/20 vision because of cataracts
09:02:31 <oren> or wait what order do the number go in?
09:03:13 <mroman_> is the world-wide prevalence of cataract
09:03:50 <mroman_> the most common listed disability in that list is hearing loss
09:04:03 <mroman_> mostly because old people tend to get hearing loss
09:04:44 <mroman_> compared to 125 Mio. people with alcohol abuse
09:04:56 <mroman_> or >1000 Mio. with iron-deficiency
09:05:46 <oren> one of my friends has abnormally sensitive hearing. I wear earbuds and listen to music, and he can listen to it and pick out the lyrics. He can't stand anywhere near a speaker playing music even at normal volume
09:05:53 <zzo38> I made up character page of level20.tex in All The Tropes by now, but isn't very good so far, I think
09:06:05 <mroman_> unsurprisingly diarrhoea is really, really common :)
09:06:23 <oren> Well yeah, a lot of people get it from milk
09:06:34 <zzo38> Do you know how to make up any Magic: the Puzzling too?
09:07:00 <mroman_> oren: although most people have abnormally insensitive hearing
09:07:12 <mroman_> when I watch TV and somebody else joins they usually double the volume
09:07:31 <mroman_> I blame too loud music in clubs.
09:07:33 <zzo38> If you make up Magic: the Puzzling and make it into a book, I will buy it. If Wizards of the Coast were to make such book I would buy them too.
09:07:34 <oren> abnormally sensitive hearing probably counts as a disability
09:07:38 <mroman_> (And I don't go the clubs obviously)
09:08:11 <oren> my friend can't stand being in front of a club let alone enter it
09:08:16 <mroman_> because it's really distressing and annoying.
09:08:37 <mroman_> You're friend probably couldn't sleep where I do :)
09:09:10 <mroman_> lots of traffic and an old house with not very sound proof walls and not very sound proof windows
09:09:29 <mroman_> you can sleep with the windows open
09:09:37 <mroman_> because closing them doesn't do shit to the noise
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09:11:09 <mroman_> also there's an outdoor pool very near
09:11:21 <mroman_> so you can always hear the kids there
09:11:36 <mroman_> (public outdoor bath. I don't know what you guys call that)
09:12:02 <mroman_> in summer you can hear them all day long screaming :)
09:12:09 <oren> swimming pool?
09:13:06 <mroman_> there's also a soccer field nearby
09:13:14 <mroman_> so you can hear the fans screaming when a match is on :)
09:13:35 <oren> There are cafe
09:13:37 <mroman_> outdoor swimming pool is within 5min walking distance, soccer field also within 5min walking distance
09:13:53 <mroman_> ice rink within 5min walking distance
09:14:00 <mroman_> shopping centre within 5min walking distance :)
09:14:30 <mroman_> pretty much everything you need is within 5min walking distance
09:14:35 <oren> I live in a very loud neighbourhood (lots of clubs) but my house was built with thick walls and double glass windows
09:15:20 <oren> I guess it's only loud at night, really.
09:16:41 <oren> The loudest thing is, you can always hear some tiny dick moron revving a motorcycle.
09:17:38 <mroman_> also there's a bouldering hall within 5min
09:17:39 <oren> they take the dampers off to make it louder
09:17:46 <mroman_> but that one costs 25k a year
09:18:41 <mroman_> oren: yeah or guys driving 50km/h in first gear just so the motor is howling
09:33:30 <mroman_> Hm. There's going to be a talk about "Augmented Reflection Technology for Upper Limb Stroke Rehabilitation" at my university
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10:09:30 <mroman_> I hate it when websites like slashdot push my CPU to 100% because of some stupid flash ads
10:10:00 <ais523> mroman_: use a plugin that disables Flash until you interact with it (typically clicking)?
10:10:10 <ais523> that feature even comes standard with some browsers nowadays
10:10:22 <ais523> and doesn't impact your ability to use Flash for its legitimate uses, it's just one more click
10:11:34 <Jafet> The solution is even simpler if you don't believe that flash has legitimate uses
10:12:03 <ais523> Jafet: I have an entirely separate browser for Flash- and JS-heavy sites
10:12:11 <ais523> and have Flash not installed and JS disabled by default in my main browser
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10:24:35 <mroman_> Good luck with all the angular.js sites then
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10:53:18 <mroman_> is there a unix tool to encode files into b64?
10:53:51 <ais523> (is the name of the tool, it's not me correcting you)
10:58:22 <Melvar> What does it mean when quickcheck gives up?
11:17:02 * boily mapoles firefox with great force “AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!”
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11:49:54 <mroman_> the problem is that desktop apps were poorly programmed so they mess up your computer
11:50:08 <mroman_> nowadays you can still poorly program them but since they are websites now they don't mess up your computer :)
11:56:10 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Files.ByteString PipeBufferLimit :: PathVar
11:56:10 <lambdabot> System.Posix.Files PipeBufferLimit :: PathVar
11:58:59 <mroman_> https://medium.com/@folsen/haskell-in-production-bdellium-1df48de40e19
11:59:11 <mroman_> ^- I guess these Pipes and stuff are proprietary then
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12:56:06 <J_Arcane> mroman_: Phrases like this are precisely what started to depress me about my employment options in FP: "Bdellium is a small company in the financial services sector providing analytics and reporting tools mainly to the US retirement industry."
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15:54:34 <Taneb> The other day I had a ridiculous idea that probably has been thought of before
15:54:49 <Taneb> newtype Nat = Nat [Nat]
15:56:17 <Taneb> (where all lists are finite and have finite depth)
15:57:35 <Taneb> It is isomorphic to the natural numebrs
15:57:49 <Taneb> Or rather, it is a representation of the natural numbers
15:58:18 <shachaf> Isomorphic in that it's an infinite countable set?
15:58:43 <Taneb> You know you can represent the naturals as bitstrings?
15:58:59 <Taneb> I'm using it as sparse bitstrings
15:59:48 <Taneb> 9 in binary is 1001
16:00:24 <Taneb> I then encode it as "Move right 0 times, write a 1, move right 2 times, write a 1", or [0,2]
16:00:33 <Taneb> Where the elements of that list are in turn natural numbers
16:02:13 -!- KitB has quit (Quit: No Ping reply in 180 seconds.).
16:03:42 <Taneb> Does that make sense?
16:04:38 -!- KitB has joined.
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16:08:12 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence.
16:08:30 <Taneb> I actually invented this, it doesn't go in the list
16:08:31 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
16:08:41 <shachaf> Taneb: what are you implying
16:09:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/the torus: Too many levels of symbolic links \ ls: cannot access wisdom/torus: Too many levels of symbolic links
16:09:22 <HackEgo> Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
16:09:34 <Phantom_Hoover> `learn Torus? He hardly knew us! he did inventus though
16:09:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'torus?': Torus? He hardly knew us! he did inventus though
16:09:55 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/the torus -> torus \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Jun 7 16:50 wisdom/torus -> the torus \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 49 Jun 9 16:11 wisdom/torus?
16:09:56 <Taneb> I do not think that was quite what you intended, Phantom_Hoover
16:10:28 <shachaf> look just get the old entry back
16:10:47 <HackEgo> total 8 \ drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 9 01:44 . \ drwxr-xr-x 16 5000 5000 4096 Jun 9 16:11 .. \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 1 Jun 9 01:44 canary -> .
16:11:03 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:11:09 <HackEgo> drwxr-xr-x 2 5000 0 4096 Jun 9 01:44 canary
16:11:46 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
16:11:49 <int-e> Taneb: I'd be careful with that, he tends to read the logs ;)
16:12:02 <Taneb> int-e, I think he is actually to blame
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16:15:21 <int-e> Taneb: oh, actually it was ais523. oerjan and agent smith had a fight; the agent won.
16:18:59 <int-e> what, why is `complaint no longer dispatching with the complains ... uhm ... efficiently?
16:22:07 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
16:22:08 <int-e> `` true > Complaints
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16:23:55 <Taneb> Of the 17 marks I lost in my computability and complexity exam, I lost 1 for being too damn laconic, 5 for an arithmetic error, and 11 for misreading the question
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16:37:13 <tswett> `` ln -s /dev/urandom wisdom/ngevd
16:37:14 <HackEgo> ln: failed to create symbolic link `wisdom/ngevd': File exists
16:37:39 <tswett> `` ln -s /dev/urandom wisdom/ngevd
16:37:47 <HackEgo> ͨq\+7CEuƮΔ:YA\ǏcDh=^[X<c~Nz@2CڼyN1Gst%4.3߽:Q2Z}t徕FW! ] uz
16:37:52 <HackEgo> GR]dz`aLʦ9TBL%:2m̐b8W.gD٣>5#t(*_,~끪HkyG]Rn9..Q{[.
16:43:12 <HackEgo> 1 \ 10 \ 2 \ 281 \ 285 \ 286 \ 287 \ 288 \ 289 \ 290 \ 291 \ 292 \ 3 \ 4 \ 47 \ 49 \ 5 \ 51 \ 6 \ 68 \ 7 \ 76 \ 77 \ 8 \ 9 \ buddyinfo \ bus \ cgroups \ cmdline \ config.gz \ consoles \ cpuinfo \ crypto \ devices \ diskstats \ driver \ execdomains \ exitcode \ filesystems \ fs \ interrupts \ iomem \ ioports \ irq \ kallsyms \ kcore \ kmsg \ kpageco
16:43:25 <HackEgo> auxv \ cgroup \ clear_refs \ cmdline \ comm \ coredump_filter \ cpuset \ cwd \ environ \ exe \ fd \ fdinfo \ limits \ maps \ mem \ mountinfo \ mounts \ mountstats \ net \ ns \ oom_adj \ oom_score \ oom_score_adj \ pagemap \ personality \ root \ smaps \ stat \ statm \ status \ task \ wchan
16:44:20 <tswett> `` ln -s /proc/self/cmdline wisdom/reflection
16:44:37 <tswett> ` cat wisdom/reflection
16:44:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
16:44:43 <tswett> `` cat wisdom/reflection
16:47:23 <tswett> `` read foo < wisdom/reflection; echo "$foo"
16:48:52 <tswett> The most useful piece of wisdom ever.
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16:53:06 <olsner> oh right, you did that already
16:53:24 <olsner> and now I see what's happening, that's nice
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17:49:50 <int-e> . o O ( ln -s /proc/self/exe wisdom/binary\ reflection )
17:50:32 <b_jonas> I heared rumours that this bad style of interviewing exists where the reporter is asking a long list of fixed clichéed questions from a paper and doesn't ever react to what the interviewed replies,
17:50:38 <b_jonas> but I never heared a real example for it.
17:50:46 <b_jonas> This interview is exactly that.
17:50:56 <b_jonas> Where did they get this woman?
17:51:28 <int-e> Maybe it was a Turing Test. She passed. ;)
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17:51:41 <b_jonas> that's not obvious through radio
17:52:14 <olsner> it would've been obvious to the people hiring her
17:52:50 <olsner> unless she was hired over the phone, does she have a good voice?
17:53:19 <b_jonas> and it might even have the advantage that he can sometimes get some people to start giving an interview, but what would that be worth if then they get a useless junk interview?
17:53:50 <int-e> oh, pratchett had something to say about this interviewing style... http://www.lspace.org/books/apf/words-from-the-master.html, search for "on interviews"
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18:17:16 <fungot> olsner: is there documentation about the most depressing site ever. it will let you delete the temporary
18:18:37 <mroman_> Most depressing site ever?
18:19:52 <int-e> I'm over golf.shinh.org
18:20:09 <mroman_> You now hunt deer in the forrest?
18:20:31 <mroman_> That's what hobbies are usually for
18:21:12 <int-e> I'm pondering writing a loop finder for combinatory logic.
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18:25:07 <oren> My uncle hunts deer and birds sometimes.
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18:57:59 <mroman_> Hunting is becoming very unpopular.
18:58:10 <mroman_> With all the "how could shoot an unarmed animal"-people around
18:58:17 <mroman_> like there are any armed animals around ...
18:59:42 <mroman_> We live in a time where humans have more empathy for animals than for other humans
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19:27:02 <oren> "make your faith for yourself and together. therefore my shrine is keep on exterminating ghosts" how can someone have perfect english pronounciation yet sound so completely stilted
19:30:00 <oren> maybe the lyricist should have consulted the singer for grammar lessons
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19:39:06 <oren> srsly whoever wrote the libretto for this album must have gotten like, 60% in English class
19:42:16 <b_jonas> oren: see current poll question on Irregular Webcomic
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20:01:11 <b_jonas> hehe, a bug report complains that some random generator functions are "unpredictable"
20:01:30 <b_jonas> funny even though it makes sense if you read on
20:05:27 <oren> what, does the same seed not produce the same series all the time?
20:06:49 <b_jonas> oren: something like that, yet
20:06:58 <b_jonas> and the report is also wrong because he hasn't read the docs
20:07:05 <b_jonas> but he does write "unpredictable" in a sane context
20:07:15 <b_jonas> so the report isn't preposterous, just wrong
20:07:32 <b_jonas> he's trying to save rng state and restoring it later, but does it wrong
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21:01:30 <zzo38> I did not (yet) what is that?
21:02:11 <GeekWebChat> It's a game where you have to write multithreaded assembly to play
21:02:32 <GeekWebChat> you get up to 12 cores, and each core can only have something around 18 lines of assembly each
21:03:04 <zzo38> OK, what kind of instructions and what kind of winning game and stuff?
21:03:35 <GeekWebChat> you get some input devices to read from, and an output device(s) to write to
21:03:51 <GeekWebChat> they give you instructions on what to do to the input, and the expected outputs
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21:11:51 <GeekWebChat> Anyways, I'm writing an emulator for the TIS-100
21:18:00 <fizzie> I thought of buying it on Steam, but the 10% discount wore off.
21:22:07 -!- Sprocklem has quit (Ping timeout: 264 seconds).
21:36:15 <GeekWebChat> fizzie: haha, that's why I'm writing an emulator
21:37:00 <GeekWebChat> well, than and the fact that writing an emulator is quite satisfying by itself
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21:39:00 <lambdabot> CYUL 092100Z 29010G15KT 15SM -SHRA SCT033 OVC080 20/17 A2958 RMK SC3AC5 SLP017 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
21:39:32 <boily> my fungot it's only -SHRA, you unweathered Environnement Canada dweebs.
21:39:32 <fungot> boily: welcome back acon, you have to
21:39:50 <boily> fungot: I have to dry, that's what. my feet are wrinkled.
21:39:55 <fungot> boily: but after expanding the aif it would. but those are only superficial changes.
21:41:17 -!- GeekWebChat has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
21:42:08 <lambdabot> KATL 092127Z COR 19014KT 4SM TSRA BR FEW008CB BKN020 OVC070 21/19 A2992 RMK AO2 WSHFT 2058 VIS LWR SE-SW FRQ LTGICCG SE-SW & DSNT NE TS SE-SW & DSNT NE MOV SE P0089 $
21:42:24 <boily> holy fungot that's one metar if I've ever seen one.
21:42:24 <fungot> boily: works fine for me.
21:42:56 <quintopia> it is waiting on me at the suit store
21:43:47 <quintopia> meanwhile all i want to do is watch the one night ultimate werewolf thread because holy fungot is it entertaining
21:43:48 <fungot> quintopia: guile has pretty complete fnord bindings, and i'm not in school, but i don't use a mouse, and so on get's resolved at command time
21:44:58 <quintopia> if you have a few minutes to see what a skillful con game looks like, read it: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=111990
21:46:29 * boily quietly, slowly munches on his pretzels in awe and wonder
21:57:12 <oren> australia is ruined forever for me
21:57:45 <oren> they are getting geothermal energy from a mesozoic basin
21:57:49 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eromanga_Basin
21:58:03 <lambdabot> KOAK 092153Z 30012KT 10SM SCT035 OVC140 20/13 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP120 T02000128
21:58:28 <lambdabot> CYYZ 092146Z 01004KT 340V040 15SM VCSH SCT055TCU BKN084 21/15 A2972 RMK TCU4AC2 SLP062 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
22:02:19 -!- function has changed nick to trout.
22:03:51 <boily> oren: come to Montréal. it's quite far from Australia.
22:10:56 <boily> quintopia: my brains. they hurt.
22:17:55 -!- trout has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero).
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22:22:11 <boily> `relcome quietello
22:22:12 <HackEgo> quietello: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:23:02 <HackEgo> pizza/Pizza is a kind of rhubarb pie made without rhubarb.
22:23:46 <HackEgo> 1795: Pizza is a kind of rhubarb pie made without rhubarb.
22:23:57 <shachaf> I never realized I could hg blame in HackEgo.
22:24:10 <shachaf> Also apparently I put that wisdom there.
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22:35:50 <boily> shachaf: I admit having created some wisdom entries. I wonder who's the most prolific author.
22:35:53 <boily> (also, shellochaf!)
22:36:10 <boily> hellørjan. are you a great wisdomist?
22:36:19 -!- atrapado has quit (Quit: Leaving).
22:38:36 <oerjan> boily: a while ago i had the impression i was the only one adding stuff to wisdom and quotes. it's not quite that bad now.
22:39:43 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how new that is <-- the repository browser is at http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/
22:40:55 <oerjan> @tell ais523 also, i am _not_ to blame for that one hth
22:41:45 <boily> which one are you not to be blamed at for what?
22:41:55 <oerjan> the changes to complaint
22:46:12 <oerjan> <mroman_> I hope the "legacy tax" passes this weekend. <-- huh and norway just abolished _our_ inheritance tax...
22:47:42 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
22:49:27 <FireFly> `` hg blame -u wisdom/firefly
22:49:28 <HackEgo> HackBot: FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
22:50:36 <shachaf> You can get the commit message from hg and figure out the IRC user.
22:50:46 <shachaf> imo write a script to summarize it
22:56:51 <oerjan> @tell mroman_ <mroman_> ^- I guess these Pipes and stuff are proprietary then <-- the pipes package isn't proprietary but hoogle still doesn't index all of hackage. iirc ndm is working on a new version that does that and more.
22:59:19 <oerjan> in fact i would have thought he'd have had it up and running by now.
23:01:38 <FireFly> `` hg log -r $(hg annotate wisdom/firefly | cut -d: -f1) | sed -rn '/^summary/ s/^summary:\s*//p'
23:01:39 <HackEgo> <Tanea> learn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
23:02:00 <shachaf> You probably want hg log, not hg annotate, anyway.
23:02:01 -!- APic\splat has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
23:02:09 <shachaf> A per-line summary doesn't make sense.
23:02:21 <FireFly> Could be handy to ask for the last commit that changed a given line
23:03:02 <FireFly> `` hg log wisdom/firefly | sed -rn '/^summary/ s/^summary:\s*//p'
23:03:03 <HackEgo> <Bike> revert \ <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ <Tanea> learn FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
23:03:30 <oerjan> now to find out wtf went wrong
23:04:36 <oerjan> `` ln -l wisdom/*torus*
23:04:36 <HackEgo> ln: invalid option -- 'l' \ Try `ln --help' for more information.
23:04:42 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/*torus*
23:04:48 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/the torus -> torus \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Jun 7 16:50 wisdom/torus -> the torus
23:05:17 <HackEgo> can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r d2fdb9c12e32 -r 673d4139cdaa wisdom/torus \ |--- a/wisdom/torusSun Jun 07 16:47:56 2015 +0000 \ |+++ b/wisdom/torusSun Jun 07 16:50:51 2015 +0000 \ -------------------------- \ File
23:06:17 <oerjan> shachaf: `undo and `revert don't handle links properly, even if hg does :(
23:07:20 <oerjan> `` echo test >wisdom/torus; undo 5462
23:07:21 <HackEgo> bash: wisdom/torus: Too many levels of symbolic links \ can't find file to patch at input line 4 \ Perhaps you used the wrong -p or --strip option? \ The text leading up to this was: \ -------------------------- \ |diff -r 1747ab989893 -r bc50e28c60b5 wisdom/torus \ |--- a/wisdom/torusSun Jun 07 16:36:01 2015 +0000 \ |+++ b/wisdom/torusSun Jun 07
23:07:36 <oerjan> `` rm wisdom/torus; echo test >wisdom/torus; undo 5462
23:07:39 <HackEgo> patching file wisdom/torus
23:07:43 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
23:07:47 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
23:09:25 <oerjan> oh wait why did i do this before i decided whether to revert tswett's changes...
23:17:39 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/reflection
23:17:39 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Jun 9 16:46 wisdom/reflection -> /proc/self/cmdline
23:17:54 <oerjan> is that link likely to break anything?
23:18:09 <shachaf> `` hg blame wisdom/reflection
23:18:22 <oerjan> shachaf: it's tswett hth
23:18:36 <shachaf> oerjan: i was wondering whether it would break hg blame
23:18:49 <shachaf> just, like, trying to answer your question, man
23:19:35 <oerjan> well i'm thinking about breaking in a more general sense of "why we stopped making wisdom/ngevd link to /dev/urandom"
23:20:11 <oerjan> `` undo 5500; undo 5499
23:20:13 <HackEgo> The next patch, when reversed, would empty out the file wisdom/ngevd, \ which is already empty! Ignore -R? [n] \ Apply anyway? [n] \ Skipping patch. \ 1 out of 1 hunk ignored \ patch: **** File wisdom/ngevd is not a regular file -- can't patch
23:20:34 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 12 Jun 9 16:39 wisdom/ngevd -> /dev/urandom
23:20:43 <HackEgo> The next patch, when reversed, would empty out the file wisdom/ngevd, \ which is already empty! Ignore -R? [n] \ Apply anyway? [n] \ Skipping patch. \ 1 out of 1 hunk ignored
23:20:57 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 12 Jun 9 16:39 wisdom/ngevd -> /dev/urandom
23:21:12 <HackEgo> patching file wisdom/ngevd
23:21:19 <HackEgo> ʂ|kޞe}^ \ @y6!h{,iGq20߃n3ks~L \ : VkZb$II<nE%U'E8_`2Uw14N4?lM;{d \ HyV3ohz=@2L.ѩI*tGV!z@l[Q[<F]GE"Mx7XNI,Xs3gYj61z^pY%inWIߎF"r&uXQ֝\a{mED2AOڇ,K{3zLoHx^!>!}yd{
23:21:44 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼
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23:24:29 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/ also tswett‼/' wisdom/ngevd
23:24:40 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: um tswett did the changes this time
23:24:55 <oren> why not just special case ngevd in cat instead
23:25:54 <oerjan> oren: um the point is that we want it to be possible to run commands over all of wisdom/* without them breaking, cat is just one small bit of it.
23:26:23 <oren> but ? uses cat right?
23:26:34 <oerjan> oren: ? already has it special cased.
23:28:13 <oren> uhh... well write a device that is like dev urandom but with a byte limit per process?
23:28:14 <oerjan> IT'S NOT UNPRECEDENTED
23:28:49 <oerjan> oren: and you expect us to make that survive in HackEgo's brittle repository _how_?
23:29:35 <oren> with, uh, endofunctors?
23:30:02 <oerjan> _weird_ things happen with abnormal files in there...
23:30:39 <boily> I'm still not touching some of them. ain't gonna PDF them. let some poor other fool do that instead.
23:32:06 <oren> `? coffeescript
23:32:10 <FireFly> hg has some trouble with symlinks I think
23:32:23 <FireFly> Or did, at some point. Maybe they fixed it
23:33:13 <oerjan> FireFly: they don't reliably survive `revert and `undo, at least.
23:33:29 <oerjan> whether that's hg itself is a different matter.
23:34:33 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/canary: Is a directory \ wisdom/deewiant:Deewiant is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing. \ wisdom/disflagrate:disflagrate v.t.perf.: a traditional technique from Poland (earliest attestation c. 1042) used to separate szoups. Nowadays, commercial production is entirely mechanized. \ wisdom/esosc:esosc is esoteric song conte
23:34:48 <oerjan> `` grep fnord wisdom/*
23:34:49 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/canary: Is a directory \ wisdom/fizzie:fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg \ grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ Binary file wisdom/reflection mat
23:35:20 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure that's safe any longer...
23:35:31 <oerjan> `` grep -r fnord wisdom
23:35:32 <HackEgo> wisdom/fizzie:fizzie is not fnord with a monad but the king of #esoteric, see http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/raw-file/tip/src/fizziecoin.jpg
23:35:58 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
23:35:58 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Is a directory
23:36:24 <oerjan> so many people no longer here
23:36:50 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Apr 15 07:51 wisdom/canary -> ../canary
23:37:13 <oerjan> `ls wisdom/canary/canary
23:37:33 <oren> ` ls -lR wisdom/canary
23:37:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
23:37:34 <oerjan> i guess grep checks for cycles. still, a bit unnerving.
23:38:07 <boily> oerjan: that's why the Wisdom is important. to remember those who were, and those that will come.
23:38:23 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:38:42 <oren> `` ls -lR wisdom/canary
23:38:43 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 9 Apr 15 07:51 wisdom/canary -> ../canary
23:39:03 <shachaf> `le/rn #esoteric/there is no channel but #esoteric. monqy is the cenroïd of #esoteric.
23:39:21 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:39:46 <HackEgo> total 0 \ lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 1 Jun 9 01:44 canary -> .
23:39:52 <quintopia> boily: do you have any guesses as to the wolves? i can tell you.
23:40:10 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:40:59 <HackEgo> there is no channel but #esoteric. monqy is the cenroïd of #esoteric.
23:41:09 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:41:13 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
23:41:19 <shachaf> `le/rn #esoteric/#esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
23:41:24 <oren> Are there any commands where evry possible letter is a valid opion
23:41:46 <FireFly> What does "option" mean in this case?
23:42:24 <oren> like -qwertyuiopsdfghjklzxcvbnm
23:42:47 <oren> are there any commands where all of the letters could be used at once
23:43:11 <shachaf> `true -qwertyuiopsdfghjklzxcvbnm
23:43:20 <shachaf> it even works if you add a
23:43:52 <boily> quintopia: vite de même, I think Madge. perhaps Bessie too, but I wouldn't put my hand in a burning fungot about that. Spack's a tanner.
23:43:52 <fungot> boily: i last saw arcus on oct 06 at fnord pm
23:44:09 <boily> quintopia: and according to the 'got, arcus.
23:45:26 <fungot> FireFly: and especially if i need to add a bit of an inconsistency: fnord for open-output-file, two: if-existent if-non-existent. don't know, what you are
23:45:34 <oren> hmm this sucks
23:45:48 <boily> oren: statistically speaking, there should be some version of `tar' out there that supports the whole shebang.
23:45:59 <oerjan> `` rm canary/canary; echo chirp >canary/canary
23:46:07 <boily> fungot: it's easy. he's a firefly hth
23:46:08 <fungot> boily: foo markup for tt, mark table rows in recent-changes and edit-history with even/ odd divs so that the ai literally cannot lose, it's different
23:47:02 <oren> bash under xfce4-terminal starts messing up when the lines get past 80 characters. Bash under screen under xfce-terminal works fine
23:47:13 <FireFly> fungot: you can style even and odd rows with CSS these days
23:47:13 <fungot> FireFly: we could book a hotel for all of the srfi process... notably a standard condition system.
23:47:51 <HackEgo> cat: canary: Is a directory
23:48:26 <FireFly> Why is it a directory anyway
23:48:38 <oerjan> FireFly: because people in this channel are insane hth
23:48:52 <boily> it's a direcanary.
23:49:07 <boily> no I'm not. I'm very sane tyvm.
23:49:29 <oerjan> it seems like it does something funny to `revert, sometimes. might have to make it a file again.
23:49:47 <FireFly> I wonder how a FIFO would fare
23:50:04 <boily> zzo38: positively sanitarily sure.
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23:52:29 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ share \ src \ twolines \ Wierd \ wi
23:52:35 <FireFly> Hmm, can one write an n-ary xor in LaTeX, akin to \sum for n-ary summation?
23:53:08 <oren> um, I think you use like a big earth sign
23:53:50 <boily> @ask ais523 is a big Earth good for n-ary xores?
23:55:18 <oren> (according to wikibook)
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00:02:18 <Sgeo_> What do you think of an XML language where this is a valid element?
00:02:19 <Sgeo_> <Color color="1 1 1, 0 0 0, "/>
00:05:06 -!- Wright has joined.
00:05:58 <zzo38> What XML-based format is that?
00:06:18 <Sgeo_> It's meant to be two colors, at least, but still very string parsing
00:07:07 <zzo38> I don't really like XML much, JSON and RDF are generally better
00:07:22 <Sgeo_> Well, it was meant to replace VRML, which was its own custom thing
00:07:40 <Sgeo_> But it basically seems to take VRML and wrap it in slightly XMLish clothes
00:08:19 <oren> I prefer colors to be 6 character hex codes
00:08:55 <oren> or css color names
00:09:19 <zzo38> I still think that a JSON-based or RDF-based system might be better
00:09:24 <zzo38> I also prefer the hex codes
00:17:53 <HackEgo> hom-set/Hom-sets are just sets of morphisms between two objects.
00:19:51 <boily> Sgello_. is X3D similar to AMF?
00:20:53 <Sgeo_> I don't know what AMF is
00:25:50 <HackEgo> isomorphism/isomorphism is isomorphic to Phantom_Hoover up to isomorphism.
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00:36:58 <HackEgo> PrinceW3: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:37:30 <PrinceW3> Hey, who is the owner or admin of esolangs?
00:38:22 <PrinceW3> I found an esoteric joke language
00:40:22 <PrinceW3> That I think should be added to esolangs.org
00:40:22 -!- quietello has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
00:41:02 <shachaf> esolangs.org is a wiki. Anyone can add a language.
00:41:49 -!- PrinceW3 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
00:45:18 <HackEgo> bike/Bike is from Luxembourg.
00:45:26 <HackEgo> plugh/A hollow voice says "Plugh"
00:45:29 <HackEgo> test/test failed. HackEgo-JUnit is not available.
00:45:44 <boily> I think I'm the one who added plugh...
00:46:00 <HackEgo> changeset: 4147:642bcf901052 \ user: HackBot \ date: Fri Dec 06 16:51:20 2013 +0000 \ summary: <boily> echo \'A hollow voice says "Plugh"\' >wisdom/plugh
00:46:09 <shachaf> Imagine: Today you'd just use le/rn.
00:46:37 <boily> the Olden Ways were better. nah.
00:46:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43187&oldid=43093 * 96.59.227.171 * (+70) added QKAS
00:46:53 <boily> young'uns with their convenience learns...
00:47:11 <oren> how do you pronounce 'hg'?
00:47:26 <oren> like the word 'hug'
00:47:38 <shachaf> i pronounce a lot of things like that word, though
00:48:31 <boily> hg is pronounced about the same way as hth is hth
00:56:02 <oren> you have no chance to survive make your time
00:56:36 <HackEgo> wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."/
01:00:15 <HackEgo> inverness/Inverness is a city in Scotland. The ring road isn't multiplicative.
01:00:25 <boily> `wisdom PinealGlandOptic
01:00:26 <HackEgo> tmyk/tmyk the more overfilled your brain gets.
01:00:36 <HackEgo> Pineapple is a hybrid species descended from a cultivar of spinach and wild ivy, therefore making it a class 6 vegetable.
01:00:53 <boily> but then, does this mean...
01:00:58 <boily> `? PinealGlandOptic
01:00:59 <HackEgo> PinealGlandOptic? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:01:30 <boily> PinealGlandOptic: OHAAAAAAAAAAAAAI~~~! you aren't descripted. please to provide something descriptionful hth
01:05:46 <zzo38> I thought Hg is actually "mercury"?
01:07:45 <boily> Hg is mercury. Fe is iron. ketchup is a vegetable.
01:17:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43188 * 96.59.227.171 * (+1704) Created page with "|name=QKAS |author=Prince |year=[[:Category:2015|2015]] |influence=[[QWERTY%Keyboard%Dot%Language]] '''QKAS''' was made in 2015 by a user simply known as "Prince". The idea ..."
01:18:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43189&oldid=43188 * 96.59.227.171 * (-38)
01:21:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43190&oldid=43189 * 96.59.227.171 * (+38)
01:23:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43191&oldid=43190 * 96.59.227.171 * (+17)
01:25:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43192&oldid=43191 * 96.59.227.171 * (+8)
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01:31:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43193&oldid=43192 * 96.59.227.171 * (+64)
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02:45:14 <oren> how many jobs should I apply for at once?
02:45:28 <oren> is 15 too many?
02:46:07 <oren> I've apllied for 5 so far
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03:28:25 <oren> apparently americans don
03:28:36 <oren> 't refer to the hydro as the hydro
03:31:44 <oerjan> hydro is a norwegian company hth
03:32:07 <oren> in canada the hydro means the electric company
03:32:32 <oren> like "my hydro bill was high this month"
03:33:45 <oerjan> it would be a reasonably name in norway which is something like 90% (ref: thin air) hydro
03:34:08 <pikhq> Is hydroelectric power that common in Canada?
03:34:34 <oren> Yeah, something like 70% of the watershed of quebec is dammed
03:34:41 <pikhq> Or do you just pretend it's hydroelectric when really you're generating power by burning the husks of huffed kittens?
03:35:03 <oerjan> i'm not sure what we call it nowadays after all the privatization (each of us pays two companies, one for the actual power and one for the lines)
03:35:49 <oerjan> and there are lot of companies to choose between
03:36:15 <oren> What the hell! In America, the don't have smarties, and rockets are called smarties
03:36:38 <oerjan> (for the power. the line is generally fixed, i suppose.)
03:37:22 <oerjan> well, i think smarties is some kind of chocolatey candy here
03:37:57 <oren> right, that's what they are in Canada
03:38:14 <oren> they are a tastier version of M&M's
03:39:05 <oerjan> i don't think we have rockets (at least by that name) or M&Ms
03:39:35 <oerjan> we have M, which are chocolate-covered peanuts.
03:40:06 * oerjan has some of those in the fridge
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03:40:25 <pikhq> M&Ms are just chocolates with a candy shell.
03:40:38 <pikhq> (with some varieties, like peanut M&Ms, that have stuff in 'em.)
03:41:31 * oerjan vaguely wonders if M is why they aren't trying to advertise M&Ms in norway
03:41:43 <oerjan> well, that i've noticed, anyway
03:42:41 <oerjan> i recall from back when i visited the us some M&M ad about an M&M trying to look blue by holding its breath
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06:37:53 <oren> what is this i don't even
06:39:33 <oerjan> does that mean you odd?
06:49:39 <oren> i'm just watching some crazy Thai music video featuring hitler
06:50:04 <oren> I can't believe this thing even exists
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06:51:16 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ydRxCUZp8Bg
06:52:07 <oren> I mean they even incorporate the Nazi salute into their Parapara routine. what. the. fuck.
07:02:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sparr * New user account
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07:19:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Marbelous]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43194 * Sparr * (+5865) First draft
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09:13:04 <myname> is unifunge considered tc?
09:16:26 <b_jonas> myname: yes. it has random access read and write statements, and enough statements to build conditionals and a loop
09:18:03 <myname> but can you do nested loops with only regular #?
09:33:46 <zzo38> How can you know for sure if some of the coincidences about Lincoln and Kennedy were not deliberately executed by Oswald's employer? (Even if it is, probably not all of them)
09:54:13 <FireFly> myname: do you mean unefunge-98? It has j which allows for arbitrary jumps
10:00:03 <myname> FireFly: why isn't it defined in the wiki
10:00:56 <FireFly> Because the article on Befunge covers B93
10:01:00 <FireFly> Try http://quadium.net/funge/spec98.html
10:02:03 <zzo38> Maybe you can add the Befunge-98 stuff into wiki too then
10:02:32 <FireFly> Well, the wiki points to the spec under external links
10:03:20 <FireFly> I don't know if it's necessary to mirror it on the wiki
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11:33:24 <zzo38> Why do D-Link router setting files are encrypted anyways? I did find out it is easy to decrypt; the C code is: i=0; while((c=fgetc(stdin))!=EOF) putchar(c-i++);
11:33:53 <zzo38> The result is a XML file that contains a comment telling you not to edit this file
11:35:08 <mroman_> what happens to negative values?
11:35:50 <ais523> mroman_: I think putchar has an effective internal mod-256 in most implementations
11:36:53 <zzo38> Even if your implementation doesn't you can put in (c-i++)&255
11:57:54 <fizzie> ais523: mroman_: On every standards-compliant implementation. (Well, technically an internal mod-(2 to the power of CHAR_BIT), but anyway.)
11:57:57 <fizzie> "-- writes the character specified by c (converted to an unsigned char) --" (C11 7.21.7.3p2), and that's what conversion from signed to unsigned does.
12:01:56 <fizzie> D-Link is not the only brand, I think I recently ran across a router that had three different ecryption methods (of varying complexity) which could all be independently applied to NVRAM keys.
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12:02:16 <fizzie> And another one where the firmware images were xor'd with some pattern.
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14:08:58 <J_Arcane> http://blog.circleci.com/its-the-future/
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14:37:23 <mroman_> fizzie: Well you gotta protect your IP.
14:41:37 <int-e> 127.0.0.1 is MINE!
14:48:55 <fizzie> Speaking of IP, I heard that there was a nice bump in IPv6 connectivity metrics back in Finland.
14:48:58 <fizzie> https://www.vyncke.org/ipv6status/project.php?metric=p&timeforward=&timebackward=&country=fi
14:49:04 <fizzie> That's quite a deviation from the projection.
14:50:12 <fizzie> They had some sort of "National IPv6 launch day" yesterday: https://www.viestintavirasto.fi/en/ipv6now/index.html
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14:58:03 <AndoDaan> Can hardware be "esoteric"? http://www.sciencealert.com/engineers-have-created-a-computer-that-operates-on-water-droplets
15:02:35 <zzo38> Probably I think so?
15:05:39 <AndoDaan> I guess if you'd invented a programming language that acted like water and could compute stuff, it'd be considered esoteric.
15:08:02 <int-e> esoteric or not, it's pretty cool
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15:14:08 <zzo38> The Redmine service I am currently using for AmigaMML is said they will discontinue it soon (I don't know when or how soon); now what shall I do about this?
15:14:16 <tswett> Sgeo_: well, <color>1 1 1, 0 0 0</color> would definitely be better, imo.
15:14:53 <tswett> <colors><color red="1" green="1" blue="1"/><color red="0" green="0" blue="0"/></colors> would be somewhat easier to take in, but it's also really verbose.
15:16:11 <tswett> oren: I'd say apply for as many jobs as you feel like, but be very careful about applying for multiple jobs at the same company.
15:16:19 <tswett> It may be a good idea. It may be a bad idea.
15:17:17 <tswett> Applying for 15 jobs is definitely not excessive.
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15:20:59 <zzo38> The other way is by RDF such as: [ :colors ("1 1 1"^^C:drgb "0 0 0"^^C:drgb) ]
15:23:17 <zzo38> So the node has the list of two colors, white and black.
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16:44:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[QKAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43195&oldid=43193 * 96.59.227.171 * (+1)
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18:39:53 <pikhq> Whoooo; hiring committee approved.
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19:33:47 <fizzie> In my case, I didn't hear pretty much anything about how my interviews went, except after the final decision.
19:34:32 <fizzie> Also when they had decided, the recruiter sent an email saying only "I have some news, when could I call?", which I think was a bit of a tease.
19:36:52 <b_jonas> pikhq: good, what will you work at?
19:37:03 <ais523> fizzie: they might not be allowed to put that sort of information in email
19:38:31 <fizzie> ais523: Mmmaybe. Or they might just have a policy of giving the answer in person.
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19:40:39 <fizzie> They're quite famous for not telling you why you weren't hired if you're not accepted, or so I've heard (primarily from people complaining about not being able to know what they need to improve on). I think the speculation was that it's due to fear of lawsuits, but I don't know.
19:43:35 <pikhq> They also haven't formally handed me a job offer yet.
19:43:42 <pikhq> fizzie: That's pretty common though.,
19:44:16 <pikhq> (the hiring commitee is pretty much the last step to be *worried* about, but there's still some HR paperwork to put together before it's official)
19:44:35 <pikhq> b_jonas: Don't know yet.
19:45:32 <fizzie> I think it's also technically possible to fail the higher-level reviews, it's just pretty rare.
19:45:54 <fizzie> There was the compensation committee to actually decide the offer, and some "executive review" or something.
19:45:54 <int-e> . o O ( http://dilbert.com/strip/1995-11-07 )
19:46:56 <pikhq> fizzie: The compensation committee isn't really allowed to say "no" though.
19:47:08 <pikhq> Executive review can say "no", but it's pretty rare.
19:47:14 <pikhq> Like I said, last step to be worried about.
19:47:31 <pikhq> It'd have to be something like "one of my references said I was secretly terrible" or something.
19:47:57 <pikhq> Google, Mountain View campus.
19:48:17 <fizzie> I was given the impression that it can also be something like "due to business reasons", but even more rarely.
19:48:19 <olsner> is there any special department for #esoteric concerns?
19:48:35 <pikhq> olsner: Not to my knowledge.
19:48:35 <olsner> iirc we have >=3 if you get in
19:48:51 <fizzie> olsner: There's an internal code golf site, that's kind of tangentially related to the channel.
19:48:58 <fizzie> olsner: Although the language support is pretty mainstream.
19:49:39 <fizzie> #anagol had something like 8 Googlers on it, which I only learned of recently.
19:56:56 <olsner> how many ircers are there, and how many googlers, and how big the intersection?
19:58:09 <fizzie> My immediate colleagues aren't ircers, but that's in no way a uniform sampling.
19:58:23 <ais523> so I take it fizzie works for Google now, then?
19:59:21 <fizzie> I also live in London, if you hadn't heard. :)
19:59:40 <olsner> ah, you didn't end up in the US
19:59:57 <olsner> incidentally, where is fungot?
20:00:15 <fizzie> It's the strange thing.
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20:00:43 <fizzie> It's still "connected" (as in, the the read call hasn't failed), but it's not getting anything in.
20:01:01 <fizzie> Normally it goes "IRC read failed" at some point, but occasionally it gets stuck like this.
20:01:51 <fizzie> I've been thinking of making it auto-restart (with a max-retry or exponential backoff or something), but haven't bothered to, partially due to the fact that it wouldn't help in this stuck case.
20:02:04 <fizzie> Although more because of lazy.
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20:02:34 <olsner> you could add another irc bot that connects and checks if fungot is connected otherwise kills and restarts fungot
20:02:34 <fungot> olsner: you argument fails because ( n-1) in self 5, 6, 7, 5, 5 13 5 6
20:02:55 <fizzie> Can't argue with that, mostly because it makes no sense.
20:03:08 <olsner> indeed, I don't know how to argue with that
20:03:25 <olsner> fungot: you're wrong because bot, and also because I am right
20:03:26 <fungot> olsner: bf does sockets? i think they do stuff like drawing things like lines, and it's fnord est here, so that's your trick :)). i think i'm probably a bit ambitious of me to play
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20:15:26 <oren> olsner: >=3 looks like an angry cat emoticon
20:15:37 <oren> orn an evil cat emoticon
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21:28:32 <zzo38> I tried to make the program similar to the "mode" function in https://raw.githubusercontent.com/csound/csound/develop/Opcodes/biquad.c but mine has no fixed sample rate; rather the frequency is given relative to the fundamental frequency of the note. But, the note is a bit not tuned! Why is that?
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21:44:06 <zzo38> "THE ONLY TELEPHONE IN ALL OF HELL! LOCAL CALLS ONLY, PLEASE." What kind of trope is that called?
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21:55:57 <int-e> I'm going to opt for http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LastOfHisKind ... because it's not quite completely wrong.
21:57:24 <zzo38> I suppose "last of his kind" won't be quite completely wrong, but it doesn't look quite right either, isn't it?
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21:59:55 <nys> Last Of His Sort
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22:15:57 <Sgeo_> tswett, that trailing comma was optional, but afaik allowed
22:19:23 <boily> @tell oerjan hellørjan!
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22:25:55 <boily> Sgello_. that is an atrocity. you should've written ø̈rjan.
22:27:13 * boily tries to mapole Sgeo_ without laughing
22:27:38 <boily> quintopia: QUINTHELLOPIA!
22:27:50 <Sgeo_> http://www.reddit.com/r/ooer
22:27:56 <boily> I read page 4 of the ONUW. wow.
22:28:28 <boily> Sgeo_: http://www.reddit.com/r/ooerintensifies
22:30:19 <lambdabot> boily said 10m 56s ago: hellørjan!
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22:56:25 <oerjan> int-e: hi the last panel of today's GG worries me
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22:58:36 <oerjan> argh is int-e idle or absent i'm not good with this patience thing
22:59:14 <oerjan> right, i was supposed to have some chocolate. blood sugar ->
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23:44:59 <boily> oerjan: is your blood sugared enough now?
23:53:47 <oren> I like how the diacritics impinge on the previous line
23:57:59 <boily> helloren. the diacritics are linear here hth
23:59:32 <boily> http://imgur.com/09QOBBu
00:00:37 <boily> quintopia: when will it be done?
00:01:07 <boily> you should conclusively sugar your bloodstream hth
00:02:39 <oren> h́̅̆ể̏l̸̤l̲̹̘̊ö̸̷̤̥̂̀̃̅̆
00:03:09 <oren> you lose, lol, I'm so random
00:04:24 <boily> . o O ( I should've used a spork for mapoling oren. I guess I'm not random enough... )
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00:05:08 <boily> quintopia: the game.
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00:05:18 <boily> helloren! long time no see!
00:05:33 <oren> ok, I'll stop seeing how much shit i can stack on top of a latter
00:08:04 <quintopia> boily: as you can see, wam made some mistakes and has now been thrown under the bus.
00:08:22 <oerjan> boily: a spork does not seem to qualify as a mapole hth although maybe if it's an infamous canadian army pole it might include a spork?
00:08:45 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
00:09:30 <oerjan> `learn_append mapole The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
00:09:32 <HackEgo> Learned 'mapole': A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
00:10:12 * oerjan felt sudden inspiration
00:11:30 * boily needs to update ça au plus vite.
00:11:41 <HackEgo> quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator.
00:13:00 <boily> meanwhile, I'm using zsh at my job, and bash at home. I'm beginning to prefer zsh. I feel tainted and corrupted. do y'all think I should switch everything to the Z, or keep bash as a saner option?
00:16:22 <zzo38> Even if you prefer to use zsh generally you should probably install bash anyways in case some program require it somehow
00:18:21 <oren> I use midnoght commander as my shell most of the time
00:18:32 <oren> but sometimes zsh too
00:20:29 <boily> I never got the hang of mc. I prefer a good screen (or tmux).
00:23:36 <oren> mc is good mostly for moving and renaming files en masse
00:25:14 <oren> for an actual shell I used zsh
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00:25:28 <oren> but for file management mc is the boss
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01:08:43 <oren> i'm going to put the current draft of my sprite scaler up
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01:43:19 <oren> https://github.com/orenwatson/oren4x/blob/master/oren4x.cpp
01:47:38 <boily> also, you're now a coonspirator.
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01:54:31 <zzo38> O, you even have learn_append command I didn't know that before
01:59:08 <zzo38> I don't even need all of the functions of Redmine; the issues, wiki, files, will be good enough but I would want to allow arbitrary people writing on wiki and this this Redmine doesn't seem to accept that
02:02:09 <zzo38> I don't need the HTTPS either
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03:53:22 <doesthiswork> I just had a great idea. floating precision floating point. You set several bits aside to tell you how many bits are in the exponent
03:54:29 <pikhq> I do hate to tell you this, but that's pretty close to just arbitrary-precision floating point.
03:57:50 <oren> I don't think that's the same thing
03:59:06 <oren> he's saying, if you have 256 bits, you use 8 of them to signal how many of the remaining 248 bits are used as exponent and how many as mantissa.
03:59:34 <oren> So the total number of bits is still fixed
04:01:09 <pikhq> Ah. That... sounds *really* tricky to implement.
04:03:46 <doesthiswork> and if you're that you might waste bits on the meta-exponent when you don't need that amount of dynamic range in the exponent, you can have a meta-meta-exponent that tells you how many bits are used for the meta-exponent
04:04:16 <doesthiswork> replace "you're that" with "you're worried that"
04:08:03 <oren> holy crap, __int128_t is a thing
04:12:23 <pikhq> I prefer its real name, int128_t
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04:59:10 <Jafet> TAOCP 2 has an exercise involving "floating-slash" rational numbers.
05:17:40 <quintopia> i guess that means a number m/n is represented by a fixed-width number k, followed by the k bits of m, followed with all the remaining bits representing n?
05:39:41 <Sgeo_> This looks like some nice light Agoran reading http://www.mail-archive.com/agora-official@agoranomic.org/msg07043.html
05:39:47 * Sgeo_ will read it tomorrow
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05:55:34 <oren> my scaling algorithm is working nicely now
05:56:14 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/lwzyx1cy9/2439f47a/
05:58:53 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/kpt8mgxhb/
06:00:08 <oren> it attempts to smooth edges and yet make dithering xxxxxxx patterns look good too
06:02:08 <oren> like look at the carpet in the living room. it has a checkerboeard pattern on it, so the algorithm dithers it more together
06:03:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Nomanni * New user account
06:04:59 <Jafet> oren: some pixels seem to be leaking from the potted plant, though
06:06:43 <oren> yeah, it's not perfect, but it is made to be easily modified. the algorithm https://github.com/orenwatson/oren4x/blob/master/oren4x.cpp simply matches the area around a pixel to various patterns of pixels with the same color, and a matched pattern results in a pattern for the 4x version
06:06:52 <Jafet> The artist probably never expected that to become visible
06:07:41 <oren> I plan to keep figuring out rules whenever I see a part that looks too wrong
06:07:49 <Jafet> Optimising the battle animations could be more interesting
06:08:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43196&oldid=43156 * Nomanni * (-749)
06:09:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43197&oldid=43167 * Nomanni * (-14275)
06:11:42 <Jafet> Someone's optimising the esowiki
06:11:46 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/drsnyx6kh/
06:12:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43198&oldid=43155 * Nomanni * (-909)
06:12:23 <oren> here we can see some glitches with parts of the chinese chatacters
06:13:47 <Jafet> Edge detection would work for more lines
06:13:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43199&oldid=43196 * Nomanni * (-1787)
06:14:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43200&oldid=43197 * Zzo38 * (+14275)
06:14:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:Nomanni]] with an expiry time of indefinite (account creation disabled): Spamming links to external sites
06:15:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Main Page]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43201&oldid=43199 * Oerjan * (+2536) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Nomanni|Nomanni]] ([[User talk:Nomanni|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:213.162.68.175|213.162.68.175]]
06:15:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Community portal]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43202&oldid=43198 * Oerjan * (+909) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Nomanni|Nomanni]] ([[User talk:Nomanni|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:213.162.68.175|213.162.68.175]]
06:17:01 <oren> oerjan: uh, am I missing somethin
06:17:21 <oerjan> zzo38: never mind it was ok
06:22:57 <oerjan> that one seemed pretty insistent, at least we caught em quickly
06:25:23 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/qbrbyr2tj/
06:27:25 <oren> I like ZAS because it has the most intricate graphics of any game I've played for the original game boy
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06:41:00 <mroman_> oren: what scaling alogrithm is that?
06:41:34 <oren> https://github.com/orenwatson/oren4x/blob/master/oren4x.cpp
06:41:54 <oren> I modded it into mednafen
06:42:34 <doesthiswork> so I'm playing around with machine learning proto-indoeuropean roots. And it finds it very surprising how many roots start with gʷ
06:45:14 <oren> gwuh gwark gwlph
06:47:39 <oren> doesthiswork: are you entering them as unicode or a special encoding?
06:50:21 <oerjan> doesthiswork: gʷery gʷood
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07:51:31 <oerjan> *sigh* bbc's news site also seems to think zoom means i want to look at a mobile-like page
07:54:14 <oerjan> oh well only depressing news anyway.
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08:15:42 <oren> the bbc is crap anyway. actually, scratch that, all news is crap
08:16:42 <int-e> For a better experience on your device, try our mobile site.
08:16:55 <int-e> and... stupid firefox.
08:17:44 <oren> 't see a message when I zoom
08:18:20 <oren> might be they are using some HTML5 thing that my older version of firefox didn't have
08:19:45 <oerjan> oh it only did what i complained about when i load the page, not if i zoom after it's loaded.
08:19:54 <oren> like detecting zoom might not be in firfox 22
08:21:07 <int-e> they do collapse the "side bar" to the right at some (ridiculous) zoom level, or window width. I would see that as a feature.
08:21:35 <int-e> ...if javascript is enabled...
08:22:26 <oren> I have jsenabled
08:22:41 <oren> i think it's just a new html5 thing
08:25:04 <int-e> actually without javascript, links point to pages that look very much like they're designed for mobile devices. ugh.
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09:57:19 <mroman_> apparentely webpages can disable zooming on mobile devices
09:58:07 <mroman_> <meta content='width=device-width, initial-scale=1.0, maximum-scale=1.0, user-scalable=0' name='viewport' /
09:58:15 <mroman_> there's a special place in hell for these peolpe
09:59:02 <mroman_> "Disable "disable zoom"" would be a nice browser option
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10:32:43 <oren> "find web developer and slap them" would be a better one
10:33:32 <boily> web developers deserve more.
10:36:22 <oren> This irssi process has now been running for 10 days
10:36:49 <oren> ps -axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
10:37:04 <oren> irssi Mon Jun 1 02:40:26 2015
10:45:12 <oren> I wonder what the world record for longest running server is
10:45:19 <izabera> http://git-man-page-generator.lokaltog.net/
10:46:41 <oren> holy shit I was taken in for like a whole minute
10:48:02 <oren> just goes to show how incomprehensible git is.
10:56:25 <boily> do you even educate subtrees, bro? did you skip remote stash day?
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11:03:49 <lambdabot> CYUL 111000Z 24014G24KT 10SM FEW010 OVC025 17/14 A2968 RMK SF1SC7 SLP051 DENSITY ALT 600FT
11:08:03 <HackEgo> racoonspirator/A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur
11:08:09 <HackEgo> koen/Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives).
11:08:19 <Jafet> My git trees are always reflogged, as flogging them once isn't enough.
11:08:50 <boily> @ask Koen_ Vis-tu toujours en haut de la Tour Eiffel, ou approximativement là, ou vraiment approximativement quelque part autour?
11:10:12 <HackEgo> phở/Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
11:10:33 * boily wonders if he can get a nicer Vietnamese font...
11:10:37 <HackEgo> koen/Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives).
11:10:46 * boily mapoles HackEgo's RNG
11:10:49 <HackEgo> burlesque/Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
11:11:01 <HackEgo> whitespace/see https://www.bing.com/search?q=whitespace
11:11:50 <oren> space. the final frontier
11:12:14 <HackEgo> coulor/Coulor is the correct spelling.
11:12:23 <HackEgo> is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters.
11:17:28 <oren> is it even possible to name a file the empty string
11:19:52 <APic> Try and report, please.
11:20:03 <APic> [2/5.0.7]apic@Ant:~> >""
11:20:03 <APic> zsh: datei oder Verzeichnis nicht gefunden:
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11:20:56 <HackEgo> bash: : No such file or directory
11:21:06 <APic> [2/5.0.7]{1}apic@Ant:~> strace "sh -c '>\"\"'"
11:21:06 <APic> strace: Can't stat 'sh -c '>""'': No such file or directory
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11:21:21 <APic> Back to JuNetHack.net
11:21:24 <boily> APic: hi? what was that?
11:21:28 <oren> yeah it would be incompatible with paths like ~/code//utils/timetotime
11:21:49 <APic> I _think_ NetHack should be nearly Turing-complete. Anybody can elaborate on that?
11:21:53 <boily> fungot: have you brought forth one of your brethren?
11:21:58 <fungot> boily: http://www.codu.org/ odikeh/ :) dinnertime. those were backspaces.) all qubits in fnord states have always resolved to 1, and ( in my fridge but they're rather quiet." " yeah, but
11:22:21 <APic> boily: That was my zsh-Prompt and an epic Fail, sorry.
11:22:22 <boily> APic: you should ask ais523. he maintains NetHack.
11:22:35 <APic> Yeah, i know him from #NetHack et al.
11:22:48 <APic> Will ask when he joins back.
11:23:35 <oren> can you name a file with non-printing characters?
11:23:48 <oren> like backspace?
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11:24:49 <oren> apparently you can do it with newline
11:26:16 <Melvar> IIRC the only characters that can’t be in unixy filenames are '/' because separator and '\0' because end of string.
11:26:54 <Taneb> I think ':' as well maybe?
11:27:56 <oren> shit now my home directory is full of asinine named files
11:28:35 <boily> Taneb: ':' on windows because 'C:' hth
11:28:45 <boily> oren: now you know why you can't :P
11:29:26 <Melvar> : is perfectly fine. You can also leave such a file on a FATwhatever thumbdrive, then Windows Explorer will show the : as a box.
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11:30:58 <oren> like touch $"\007" works. so then your terminal beeps every time you ls
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11:31:58 <oren> whoops my bash syntax is off that should be $'\007'
11:37:01 <oren> Melvar: yeah that appears to be correct. filenames can contain any bytes except those two it appears
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11:39:47 <oren> this time i had the prescience to put them in a temporary directory
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11:54:55 <mroman_> the can even have backspaces?
11:55:53 <oren> when ls, all control chars are replaced with ?
11:58:37 <mroman_> fungot: Fnordy morning to you
11:58:37 <fungot> mroman_: what's the rationale for that? they need more of this silliness? :) i don't know squat about the language
11:58:45 <mroman_> fungot: I know the language.
11:59:03 <mroman_> fungot: Shall I teach you?
11:59:25 <mroman_> fungot: Yeah, the language is called 'or'.
11:59:25 <fungot> mroman_: the command to push false is ' f'
12:00:00 <mroman_> fungot: Exactly. To push false to the stack in 'or' you just use the f command prefixed with a space.
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12:01:56 <ais523> is fungot inventing an esolang?
12:01:57 <fungot> ais523: i just used emacs to control source code control. objections?") and two people working on each implementation is probably quite useless with a lisp
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12:02:12 <ais523> I guess we should leave it alone to write the interp
12:02:40 <mroman_> No, it is tyring to learn a language called or.
12:03:54 <mroman_> However, we only now so far that ' f' pushes false to the stack.
12:09:10 <oren> I added a few palettes for game boy games to my repstry.
12:09:20 <ais523> we should add this esolang to esolangs.org
12:09:48 <oren> that sounds good
12:12:34 <mroman_> It will mostly be impossible to prove turing complete until more is known .
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12:27:26 <int-e> hmmm. "Have you brought Forth one of your brethren?"
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12:29:12 <int-e> fungot: are you working on your own esolang?
12:29:12 <fungot> int-e: even if there are many variations and i do plan on waiting for that website for my entire language on., they're trying to cut down on the floor
12:29:26 <b_jonas> oh! so it's not exponential decay
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12:59:59 <Jafet> ^style irc is getting pretty meta.
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13:24:13 <Taneb> I miss the legend that was Friendship Mouse
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13:24:51 <Taneb> Heh, there are two quotes about self-face-punching
13:25:01 <Taneb> `quote punch.* myself
13:25:02 <HackEgo> 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 612) <elliott> ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
13:26:51 <Taneb> Anyway it is time to listen to someone talking about a language that is a little like Eodermdrome! Or possibly something else
13:26:56 <Taneb> In any case I am going away now
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13:42:17 <oren> you know, it *would* be nice for the emulator to interpolate scrolling backgrounds to increase the effective frame rate but I cant' figure out where in the code I would do such thing
13:43:31 <oren> I guess I could do it somewhere above the gpu emulation but that seems unsanitary
13:47:55 <oren> Like the idea would be, if the bg is scrolling at 1pix/8frames and we are operating at 4x scale, we could interpolate to scroll at an effective 1pix/2frames on the real screen
13:49:03 <oren> but the problem is, the scaling happens after the gpu emulation, so we would have to store say the last 10 frames and check whether it is scrolling
13:50:31 <oren> while if the scaling was BEFORE the gpu composites the sprite and background layers, then it would be way easier
13:52:07 <oren> Maybe I'll try to do the after-compositing idea by storing previous frames. it will be fucking slow, but hey, game boy emulation is pretty fast
13:54:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Or]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43203 * 160.85.232.173 * (+1256) or - the dubious language
13:58:41 <oren> Ok so what I'mma do is, for each block of say 5x5 pixels, check if any of say the last 10 previous frames exactly matches it, one pixel up, left, right or down. if it does, then we also check if any frame before that has the same pattern one more pixel in the same direction. that will give us the scroll rate,and if we store previous rendered version we then copy it, scrolled by the interpolated subpixel amount, into the block.
13:59:25 <oren> overall then, 20 frames of previous data need to be stored
14:00:32 <oren> does that sound good? or does it sound like complete madness
14:02:10 <oren> there may be glitches at the border between scrolling and stationary objects or objects scrolling in different directions
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14:07:32 <oren> so a fully rendered and scaled frame from a game boy is 1.5 MB, therefore 20 frames (1/3 of a second) is 29 MB of ram
14:08:09 <mroman_> how much RAM did a regular gameboy have?
14:08:29 <b_jonas> what? isn't it a 256x212 pixel with 4 levels of grayscale?
14:08:49 <b_jonas> plus it's made of tiles and sprites
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14:09:44 <oren> 160x144*(4bytes color)*(4*4 scaled) = 1441474560
14:09:54 <oren> 160x144*(4bytes color)*(4*4 scaled) = 1474560
14:10:36 <oren> maybe I'll instead store some sort of hash for easier comparison
14:12:07 <oren> b_jonas: the coloring also happens before I can get to is
14:12:21 <oren> so if you want palets to work with it
14:12:45 <oren> i know, it's fuck
14:12:56 <b_jonas> store just the map, the offsets, sprite pics and locations, and the map tile pictures when they change.
14:13:12 <b_jonas> ok wait, what generation game boy is this?
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14:13:58 <b_jonas> can you live compress it with some fast algorithm? tiles compress well
14:14:05 <oren> Well the part of the code I understand and know how to modify happens after the sprites are baked into the frame. so yeah
14:14:11 <oren> I can probably do that
14:14:43 <b_jonas> you can also try two-level compression, first compress quickly as you run the game, then later recompress
14:15:20 <oren> then decompress when I'm interpolating?
14:16:20 <b_jonas> but that's only worth if you want to watch playing of the game live to see it goes well, or want to interact with it
14:16:28 <b_jonas> if it's a fixed known good emulation, then don't bother
14:16:36 <b_jonas> then compress it in one phase
14:18:44 <oren> what is a good fast hashing scheme?
14:19:59 <oren> (fast on X86, that is)
14:21:21 <mroman_> is that for the gameboy monochrome?
14:22:08 <oren> monochrome is 8kb
14:23:56 <oren> fuck it, I'll just do some stupid simple rotate-xor thing
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14:25:16 <oren> get the 9 pixels around, rotate each one by its position from 1-9, xor them all together into a 32 bit unsigned
14:25:34 <oren> that ughta do it
14:26:08 <b_jonas> oren: or use multiplication too
14:26:20 <oren> actually that would work better
14:26:30 <oren> colors tend to have repetitive bits
14:27:32 <oren> multiply each color by a 8 bit prime, xor them together
14:27:44 <b_jonas> multiply each 16 bit word with some nice number, taking the low or high bits of the result, whichever you choose, but the high bits only if you multiply by a number, different for each word so that shifted pics differ, and add them together
14:29:32 <b_jonas> then maybe log how many collisions you get to find out if it's a good algorithm or not
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14:30:15 <oren> if we get collisions the screen will look... horribly wrong i think
14:34:11 <b_jonas> oren: you always get some collisions
14:34:39 <b_jonas> so you have to do a proper hash table lookup too, not just a hash function
14:35:00 <b_jonas> it's just _too many collisions_ that you should avoid
14:36:07 <mroman_> (I'm really nooby in computer graphics)
14:36:29 <oren> To allow easy detection of when a 5x5 pixel area matches a previous frame's shifted.
14:36:49 <oren> or 3x3 or whatever I decide
14:38:59 <oren> in other words, if the current frame locally looks like the frame 5 frames ago, except moved 1 pixel left, and the frame 10 frames ago is shifted 2 pixels, we want to interpolate so that the frames move smoothly
14:39:20 <oren> on top of emulating a game boy
14:39:53 <oren> and dynamically, intelligently scaling the screen up so each pixel becomes 16
14:39:58 <b_jonas> so you have to do it in real time?
14:40:08 <oren> well yeah it's an emulator
14:40:46 <oren> I program for the same reason I play games, because they're HARD!
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14:43:23 <b_jonas> oren: I still say you should try to access the map and sprite data, or at least parts of it, from the emulator directly
14:43:27 <oren> actually technically, I think the colors don't have an alpha channel. So I could store 3 bytes per color instead
14:43:57 <b_jonas> oren: no no no, figure out the palette first, isn't it always small on any one frame?
14:44:13 <b_jonas> convert to an indexed image
14:44:21 <b_jonas> make sure to try to make the indexes consistent between pictures
14:44:28 <b_jonas> or get the palette directly from the emulator
14:44:44 <b_jonas> the tiles or sprites are not true color, right?
14:45:05 <oren> on color game boy i think its' 15 bit color
14:46:48 <oren> oh wait, they are limited to 56 colors per scanline
14:47:30 <oren> which makes no sense, how do scanlines exist on an LCD anyway?
14:47:48 <b_jonas> oren: because the cpu can in theory change the palette between scan lines
14:48:08 <b_jonas> (or any time really, but the graphics chip reacts slowly)
14:48:25 <b_jonas> the chipset rendering the video still has to process in scan lines
14:48:29 <b_jonas> even if there's no cathode ray
14:48:44 <b_jonas> but very likely the palette changes rarely
14:48:52 <b_jonas> probably only at most once a frame
14:49:54 <oren> well I'll get to writing code, and if it is too slow (on this crap computer which is a good basement, being less powerful than a typical smartphone tthese days)
14:50:01 <fizzie> Quite a few old video chips have per-block things to save on VRAM.
14:50:07 <oren> then i'll opytimize
14:51:18 <oren> and obviously I'll leave in a #define to turn off/on this shit
14:53:51 <Taneb> It was an interesting talk, about GP 2
14:54:05 <Taneb> (a language that is a bit like Eodermdrome, in that it is a graph programming language)
14:54:07 <fizzie> I'm pretty sure at least some of the C64 graphics modes have "native" 8x8 blocks where you can have 4 different colors out of a palette of 16 in each block (some details omitted here), and people turn that into 8x1 blocks by doing work for each scanline.
14:54:58 <b_jonas> fizzie: isn't that character mode with 2 bit per pixel deep fonts?
14:55:11 <b_jonas> wait, they do work for each scanline? really?
14:55:25 <b_jonas> don't they just use a 1 pixel high font because there's enough RAM for that?
14:56:18 <fizzie> From what I recall (it's been quite a while since I last fiddled with this), the "normal" multicolor modes have nothing to do with CHARGEN.
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14:57:26 <oren> #ifdef MUHUHAHAHA
14:57:39 <fizzie> http://www.studiostyle.sk/dmagic/gallery/gfxmodes.htm "MultiColor mode generates the screen with resolution 160*200 pixels/16 colors. -- The screen is divided into 40*25 attribute cells. Each attribute cell is 4*8 pixel big. -- In this mode you can use maximum 4 colors in the attribute cell. Each pixel defined by 2 bites can have one of 4 different colors. One of colors is the background color."
14:57:53 <APic> ,o0(#elsif Perl Comment)
14:58:39 <fizzie> Yeah, it's just two-bits-per-pixel graphics mode (hence the horizontal resolution is halved), and the two bits select out of a color palette, and the attribute cells (which are also used for text mode) can be set to select the per-cell colors for that 4x8 (or 8x8 "real" pixels) cell.
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14:59:57 <b_jonas> so it's not made of characters
15:00:42 <fizzie> No. The VIC-20 screen is "text mode" only, I think.
15:01:04 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_video_game_console_palettes#Game_Boy_Color also refers to "mode 3 mid-scanline rendering", claiming that people swap palettes for the GBC even during a scanline.
15:02:25 <b_jonas> fizzie: but do the games really do that every scanline, or just like a few times per frame at most?
15:02:31 <b_jonas> I'd be surprised if they did it every scanline
15:02:54 <APic> Can the original Super Mario Land be glitched?
15:02:55 <fizzie> There are no citations, so I'unno. Probably not.
15:03:14 <Taneb> Is a graph language which operates on an undirected graph of the same power as a similar graph language operating on a directed graph?
15:03:24 <fizzie> b_jonas: I wouldn't be surprised if you could find GBC demos that did it quite often when showing a static image for a while.
15:03:34 <b_jonas> APic: slightly, yes, but there's no really game-breaking glitch
15:04:21 <b_jonas> APic: there's a glitch that lets mario teleport from the left edge of the screen to the right edge sometimes in autoscroller levels, which allows completing 2-3 quicker
15:04:42 <b_jonas> APic: and there's some cases when collision detection lets mario apparently pass through enemies and such things
15:05:12 <b_jonas> but nothing that really breaks the game like many other games have
15:06:06 <b_jonas> APic: it's passing through the carnivorous flowers that looks especially strange to me
15:06:22 <APic> Got a Video-Link?
15:07:07 <b_jonas> APic: http://tasvideos.org/2091M.html
15:07:16 <b_jonas> (and the hard mode which it links to)
15:07:50 <b_jonas> APic: in theory, it's possible that it can be glitched by tasers haven't found a way yet, but it's not very likely
15:08:00 <b_jonas> it's a pretty well studied game
15:18:08 <Taneb> I think that it is possible to translate graph programs operating on a directed graph to graph programs operating on an undirected graph
15:22:49 <oren> well sure. translate the directed graph to a graph with Y's where the prongs of the y are connected to the source and the bottom is connected to the destination.
15:23:13 <oren> wait that might be ambiguous
15:24:44 <oren> foreach edge from A to B, create nodes C,D,E and edges AC, AD, CE,DE, EB
15:26:23 <oren> hopefully that is less ambigious
15:27:17 <oren> would that work?
15:27:49 <APic> The Flower-Thingy owns!
15:36:01 <Taneb> > ((-) `on` ord) 'o' 'g'
15:37:57 <oren> > chr (ord 'o' + 8)
15:38:10 <oren> > chr (ord 'w' + 8)
15:38:26 <oren> > chr (ord '\DEL' + 8)
15:39:20 <oren> it... ran out of time? how is that the error, ratehr than "there is no character with that number"
15:40:02 <oren> > chr (ord '\DEL' + 8)
15:42:30 <Taneb> > char $ chr 0xffc4
15:42:40 <Taneb> > char $ chr 0xff21
15:43:41 <oren> FFC4 is a halfwidth hangul
15:43:53 <Taneb> > char $ chr 0x2615
15:44:06 <b_jonas> we have halfwidth hanguls?
15:44:12 <b_jonas> what the heck are those used for?
15:44:37 <coppro> for when you can't handle fullwidth
15:46:12 <tswett> > 1111111111111111111111111111 + 1111111111111111111111111111
15:46:31 <tswett> lambdabot is currently inebriated.
15:46:32 <oren> ｾｰﾑ ﾘｰｿﾝ ｳｨ ﾊﾌﾞ ﾊｰﾌ ｳｨｽﾞﾄ ｶﾀｶﾅ
15:47:54 <HackEgo> [U+FF73 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA LETTER U]
15:48:13 <coppro> I thought wi was written as W-small-i
15:48:22 <oren> it is, and I did
15:48:48 <coppro> now I can't trust anything you write
15:49:34 <oren> there is also the old kana ヰ but there is no halfwidth of that
15:50:04 <coppro> oren: where did you learn Japanese?
15:51:00 <oren> I took a course in my first summer of university, and then I went to Japan to attend an intensive course at a school in Tokyo
15:51:26 <oren> Then I kept it up my reading manga and watching anime
15:51:37 <b_jonas> oren: I think halfwidth kana were used on systems like VGA text mode that can display a 256 or 512 character font with only 8 or 9 or 12 wide character cells
15:51:57 <b_jonas> where they can be displayed mixed with latin letters
15:51:58 <oren> same for hangul then
15:52:06 <b_jonas> but I don't see how hangul would be used that way
15:52:30 <oren> well you just decompose the blocks into the jamo
15:52:38 <oren> and then write them in order
15:53:20 <oren> or something? Some of these ones have multiple jamo in one bloakc
15:57:10 <oren> The kana do something similar in that the handakuten ﾟ and dakuten ﾞ are separate characters rather than on the kana
15:58:33 <oren> which is why the spacing of for example ｺﾞﾝﾄﾞﾗ si weird
15:59:41 <oren> in regular it would be ゴンドラ
16:00:58 <tswett> I found a sed command in the neural net output that I'm pretty sure it just memorized. Lemme test it out.
16:01:08 <tswett> `run echo spaghetti | sed -e 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
16:01:09 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 31: invalid reference \2 on `s' command's RHS
16:01:57 <oren> that's an extended regex
16:02:13 <oren> sed by default requires \(\)
16:02:23 <tswett> `run echo spaghetti | sed -e 's/^\([^aeiou]+\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
16:03:06 <tswett> So the regex didn't match for some reason?
16:03:22 <tswett> `run echo spaghetti | sed -e 's/^\([^aeiou]\+\)\(.*\)$/\1\2 shm\2/'
16:03:44 <tswett> There must be some option you can give sed that makes it treat those as magic.
16:04:38 <b_jonas> sed -Ee 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/' <<<progress
16:04:42 <b_jonas> `` sed -Ee 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/' <<<progress
16:09:19 -!- Welo has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
16:09:48 <tswett> `run sed -Ee 's/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/' < wisdom/reflection
16:09:49 <HackEgo> sed.-Ee.s/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/. shmed.-Ee.s/^([^aeiou]+)(.*)$/\1\2 shm\2/.
16:12:18 <tswett> `run sed -Ee 's/[^a-z]//g' wisdom/reflection
16:21:32 <oren> there's that gw again
16:23:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Or]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43204 * OriginalOldMan * (+356) Created page with "Here is an interpreter in Ruby for the so far known parts of Or: <pre> program = File.open(ARGV[0],"r").read i = 0 stack = [] while i < program.length if program[i] == " " ..."
16:25:53 <myname> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxJVH5TZQFY would play
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16:49:21 <Taneb> Should there be a category on the wiki for Fancy L-complete languages?
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16:59:47 <oren> "jump crosses initialization" FUCK YOU GCC
17:00:54 <oren> it's not as if I ACESS the goddamn thing
17:04:45 -!- FreeFull has quit (Quit: Lost terminal).
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17:32:05 <oren> FUCK YES! it scrolls pixel by pixel!
17:32:34 -!- lambdabot has quit (Quit: brb).
17:32:35 <oren> MUHUHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
17:33:26 <HackEgo> monads/Monads are just free monad monad monad algebras.
17:33:34 <HackEgo> marmite/Marmite is a group mind of fungal microorganisms spreading throughout the supermarkets of the Commonwealth.
17:34:17 <oren> hold on getting a scren shot
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17:40:00 <oren> http://img.ctrlv.in/img/15/06/11/5579c84856dd6.jpg
17:40:38 <oren> if you look closely you can see that the bg is 1/2 pixel down compared to the spaceship
17:41:02 <oren> it scrolls lovelily.
17:42:28 <oren> there is some flickering whenever a nearby non-background object impinges
17:43:13 <oren> but overall it looks great. maybe I'll take a look later at fixing the flickering somehow
17:46:47 <oren> https://github.com/orenwatson/oren4x/commit/4552012637e4cf8c40f4111b387a2862ca3e8fac
17:48:26 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
17:50:17 <oren> hmm my code isn't right
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17:57:03 <oren> ha! now it's right.
17:57:33 <oren> but makybe I should store several hashes, of greater and greater area around the pixel.
17:58:37 <oren> first + then □ then a bigger ○ and then a bigger square
18:03:00 <oren> i'll do that after lunch
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18:19:42 <oren> hey, apparently mednafen has an irc channel
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20:08:57 <notfowl> Don't you write tests kirill
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21:27:21 <Taneb> oren, what desktop environment is that?
21:31:28 -!- oerjan has joined.
21:33:37 <oren> puppy linux JWM
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22:13:52 <pikhq> I used to work with the JWM guy.
22:24:49 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
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22:34:22 <Taneb> I still love that quartic-time fizzbuzz I wrote
22:36:33 <oerjan> @tell APic <APic> I _think_ NetHack should be nearly Turing-complete. Anybody can elaborate on that? <-- i'm pretty sure that's ais523's job hth
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22:39:27 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> APic: you should ask ais523. he maintains NetHack. <-- nethack 4. it is unwise to confuse the various variants hth
22:43:54 <oerjan> <oren> whoops my bash syntax is off that should be $'\007' <-- ooh
22:44:07 <HackEgo> bash: ehoc: command not found
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23:27:35 <FireFly> `` echo $'\x02Hello\x0F world'
23:33:08 <HackEgo> nooodl/nooodl is the correct spelling
23:33:40 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/"; cat "$F"
23:34:02 -!- boily has joined.
23:35:47 <shachaf> `` echo 'F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl' > bin/wisdom
23:36:38 <boily> shellochaf. upgrading noooodl?
23:36:44 <lambdabot> oerjan said 57m 16s ago: <boily> APic: you should ask ais523. he maintains NetHack. <-- nethack 4. it is unwise to confuse the various variants hth
23:37:07 <boily> hellørjan. sorry, I won't noobmistake the nethackvariants again.
23:37:18 <boily> @ask nooodl where are you?
23:37:25 <shachaf> boily: I'm upgrading wisdom.
23:37:39 <shachaf> I'm considering putting wisdom straight into bin/?
23:38:05 <shachaf> But that's a pretty foundational script.
23:38:32 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH *mapole* AAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
23:39:51 <HackEgo> changeset: 4531:7f957c1f4661 \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Mar 16 01:52:15 2014 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> revert \ \ changeset: 4530:03afb1619ef2 \ user: HackBot \ date: Sun Mar 16 01:51:13 2014 +0000 \ summary: <elliott> revert 1 \ \ changeset: 4288:abb75d738ee1 \ user: HackBot \ date: Tue Ja
23:41:02 <shachaf> boily: isn't the mapole the national tree of canada
23:41:40 <shachaf> oh, "mapole" comes from "maple"
23:41:50 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
23:43:28 <HackEgo> atm/An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info
23:43:34 <boily> according to Google Translate, a scow is a "wide-beamed sailing dinghy".
23:44:04 <HackEgo> m–rdalsjökull/M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
23:44:22 <HackEgo> onëliner/onëliners are pairs of unfathomable vectors in the category of exponential distance.
23:44:31 <HackEgo> gaspatsjo/gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
23:46:26 <boily> and now, I have some Enya stuck in my head.
23:51:03 <shachaf> `` echo 'hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '\''{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}'\'' | xargs' > bin/culprits; chmod +x bin/culprits
23:51:38 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/Tanventions
23:51:44 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/tanvention
23:51:52 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/tanebvention
23:51:53 <HackEgo> oerjan Taneb oerjan oerjan oerjan FireFly oerjan boily oerjan oerjan
23:52:42 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott shachaf oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan nooodl Roujo nooodl__ shachaf oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan Jafet elliott FreeFull oerjan nitia
23:52:51 <shachaf> I guess pinging people like that isn't very polite.
23:53:39 <HackEgo> hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | xargs
23:54:01 <FireFly> You could insert zero-width spaces after the first character in each nick
23:54:54 <shachaf> I kind of like seeing the full history.
23:55:07 <shachaf> But it might be more useful with uniq.
23:55:26 <boily> from what I see, the first culprit in time is the last in the list?
23:55:57 <boily> @ask Roujo quand est-ce que ça te dirait de revenir dans le chännel une fois, juste de même, sans pression?
23:56:32 <oerjan> boily: you realize you share another channel with him, right?
23:56:33 <shachaf> It occurs to me that the le/rn trick could be used for creating arbitrary files.
23:56:38 <shachaf> And even chmodding them +x and so on.
23:57:04 <boily> oerjan: uuuuuuuuuuuuh... >_>'...
23:57:12 * boily whistles innocently
23:58:12 <FireFly> `` sed -ri 's,xargs,sed "s/./&\xE2\x80\x8B/" | &,' bin/culprits
23:58:58 <FireFly> `` sed -ri 's,xargs,sed "s/./\&\xE2\x80\x8B/" | &,' bin/culprits
23:59:12 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:59:20 <boily> xarshachaf. he he he :D
23:59:36 <HackEgo> hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/./xargs/" | xargs
23:59:39 <oerjan> hmph that message again
23:59:46 <boily> `culprits pineapple
00:00:00 <FireFly> `` sed -i 's/xargs/\&/' bin/culprits
00:00:07 <Taneb> `culprits culprits
00:00:13 <HackEgo> FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
00:00:34 <oerjan> `` rm -r canary; echo toot >canary
00:00:49 <shachaf> FireFly: Those characters really really mess up my terminal.
00:01:01 <shachaf> Can you just put ^O in instead?
00:01:04 <FireFly> It's a UTF-8-encoded zero-width space
00:01:33 <HackEgo> dontaskdonttelllist: quintopia coppro myname
00:01:39 <oerjan> shachaf: what about that one?
00:01:50 <shachaf> oerjan: I think all non-ASCII channels mess up my terminal.
00:01:54 <shachaf> This channel is awful to be in.
00:02:04 <oerjan> shachaf: i meant that command specifically
00:02:08 <shachaf> Fortunately my computer at home doesn't have that problem.
00:02:14 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, that command too.
00:02:31 <oerjan> shachaf: i declare you unfit to complain hth
00:02:33 <FireFly> `` sed -i 's/&[^/]*/\&\\x0F/' bin/culprits
00:02:39 <HackEgo> hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/./&\x0F/" | xargs
00:02:46 <HackEgo> FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
00:03:37 <shachaf> I can't tell because I have a hilight on chaf\b
00:04:16 <FireFly> I'm not sure why it didn't work, though
00:04:26 <Taneb> I wrote a kind of bad fizzbuzz again
00:04:27 <Taneb> http://sprunge.us/gCFe?c
00:04:28 <shachaf> Maybe you have a hilight on ireFly\b?
00:04:39 <shachaf> `` culprits bin/culprits | xxd
00:04:40 <HackEgo> 0000000: 460f 6972 6546 6c79 2046 0f69 7265 466c F.ireFly F.ireFl \ 0000010: 7920 460f 6972 6546 6c79 2046 0f69 7265 y F.ireFly F.ire \ 0000020: 466c 7920 460f 6972 6546 6c79 2073 0f68 Fly F.ireFly s.h \ 0000030: 6163 6861 660a achaf.
00:05:11 <FireFly> Maybe weechat strips formatting when checking for highlights or something
00:05:14 <shachaf> Does this ping you? FireFly
00:05:33 <shachaf> The whole point of ^O is to avoid that.
00:05:39 <coppro> zzo38: when you play riichi, what yaku do you normally play with?
00:05:48 <FireFly> I think the usual point of ^O is to reset formatting hth
00:06:22 <boily> coppro: chelloppro!
00:07:45 <shachaf> Originally I was going to make culprits rot13
00:08:00 <shachaf> But then I remembered that I have my rot13ed nick on hilight too.
00:08:13 <boily> only puns, or the whole funpuns?
00:08:14 <FireFly> what if people want to talk about fun puns?
00:09:09 <Taneb> Tanea was me I think
00:09:11 <coppro> boily: actually, you too. do you care much about variations in riichi?
00:09:15 <HackEgo> Taneb oerjan oerjan elliott shachaf boily oerjan ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott FreeFull shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan FreeFull oerjan Taneb nitia
00:09:24 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
00:09:42 -!- Taneb has changed nick to Tanec.
00:09:47 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/Tane*: No such file or directory
00:09:55 <HackEgo> wisdom/tanea \ wisdom/taneb \ wisdom/tanebvention
00:10:00 -!- Tanec has changed nick to Taneb.
00:10:00 <HackEgo> Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
00:11:09 <HackEgo> oerjan Jafet oerjan oerjan boily oerjan boily Roujo boily Bike FreeFull ais523 boily oerjan
00:11:20 <shachaf> Is this pinging people other than FireFly? I can't tell.
00:11:25 <oerjan> <Taneb> Is a graph language which operates on an undirected graph of the same power as a similar graph language operating on a directed graph? <-- pretty sure you can reencode the directedness in something undirected?
00:12:53 <boily> coppro: I like kuitan and kuikae. I don't care much about other variations, although I tend to find yakitori a little bit too stressful.
00:13:39 <boily> coppro: do you have any preferences?
00:13:41 <coppro> I've never actually played with yakitori, but I can't imagine liking it
00:13:45 <Taneb> shachaf, it hasn't been pinging me
00:13:52 <Taneb> oerjan, that was my conclusion
00:14:48 <boily> coppro: also, agariyame. quite the saviour when it's the last game of the day and everybody's hungry.
00:15:03 <coppro> I have mixed feelings about agariyame
00:15:07 <oerjan> shachaf: actually it pings me in the logs because i search for rjan tdnh
00:15:43 <shachaf> oerjan: how did you manage to logread between then and now twh
00:16:02 <shachaf> FireFly: Can you change it to put the ^O one character before last?
00:16:07 <coppro> on the one hand, it makes the already-envious position of last dealer even better. on the other, being in a situation where you actively want to avoid winning is very weird
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00:16:25 <boily> coppro: yeah, there are good arguments on both side of the issue. but collective empty stomachs are an emergency by themselves.
00:16:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i didn't, i realized the issue and checked
00:17:12 <coppro> being dealer in orasu is just so good
00:17:32 <coppro> especially in a game where the points spread isn't too tight or too wide
00:18:14 <HackEgo> hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/./&\x0F/" | xargs
00:18:37 <oerjan> * boily maplings oerjan <-- that didn't actually ping me either, i think the highlight is just on the first word or something.
00:19:25 <oerjan> in any case i've never paid that much attention to in-irssi ping coloring (and i've avoided actual beeping with a passion)
00:19:40 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa
00:19:45 * boily beeps oerjan, then
00:19:52 <boily> weechat is the way to go hth
00:20:05 <FireFly> `` sed -ri 's,sed "[^"]*",sed "s/.$/\\x0F\&/",'
00:20:11 <FireFly> `` sed -ri 's,sed "[^"]*",sed "s/.$/\\x0F\&/",' bin/culprits
00:20:13 <shachaf> must've been thinking of someone else
00:20:18 <HackEgo> hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
00:20:44 <HackEgo> FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
00:21:52 <shachaf> `` touch hug; hg add hug; hg commit -m hug hug; rm hug
00:21:53 <HackEgo> abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system \ abort: could not lock working directory of /hackenv: Read-only file system
00:23:18 <oerjan> FireFly: um i think it's important to do _both_ at the beginning and end of words. consider _ suffixes.
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00:23:38 <FireFly> Feel free to add the other one, too
00:24:24 <coppro> boily: you guys play with daisharin right?
00:26:02 <boily> coppro: yup. Seven Heavenly Pairs we call them, with 22 over to 88 in the same suit.
00:26:19 <coppro> boily: has it ever happened?
00:26:25 <coppro> our club is new, no yakuman yet
00:26:41 <boily> afaict, this one never happened.
00:27:09 <boily> we had a few yakumans happen over the years. I managed suuankou and four small winds ^^
00:27:27 <coppro> http://arcturus.su/wiki/User:Coppro summarizes everything interesting I've done
00:27:30 <shachaf> oerjan: If I changed it from le/rn to le//rn would y'all object?
00:27:55 <coppro> note the first hand there :( I got the wrong winning tile
00:28:26 <boily> coppro: the most egregiously outrageous yakuman that ever happened here was suuankou and all green, while oya.
00:28:43 <oerjan> shachaf: not sure if we should encourage making subdirectories nilly-willy
00:29:08 <shachaf> oerjan: Well, I want to make a general-purpose program to make files now.
00:29:19 <coppro> boily: we've had some silliness in 3-man
00:29:20 <shachaf> I'm tired of this echo '...'\''...' > ... thing.
00:29:22 <oerjan> one tricky part is that having dir/file prevents having `? dir itself
00:29:38 <coppro> boily: one game, a player dealt into kazoe yakuman... he wasn't defending because he was tenpai for daisangen
00:30:07 <coppro> boily: it's 3-man. this shit happens
00:30:13 <boily> I know. but still!
00:30:29 <oerjan> shachaf: ok well feel free, although maybe we should have both.
00:31:00 <shachaf> Right, I was thinking that le//rn = ma/ke "wisdom/$1"
00:31:20 <shachaf> consistency is all i ask / give us this day our daily mask
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00:31:47 <coppro> boily: we have a corner case covered in our rules that if the dealer tenhous a yakuman that upgrades to double based on the wait, they score that double, plus tenhou makes triple. If that ever happens, I'll eat my junk mat.
00:32:07 <shachaf> You can even have a version that auto-chmod+xs.
00:32:12 <shachaf> Think how fancy that would be.
00:34:02 <oerjan> shachaf: oh you want a command that works for bin/ scripts too? but then you'll still have \n problems...
00:34:17 <boily> coppro: it's a corner case, therefore likely to happen, according to the Universe Perversion Maximisation Law.
00:34:29 <shachaf> although bash scripts don't actually need newlines
00:35:04 <zzo38> Make it so that if you try to access "dir/file" but "dir" is a directory then it will read "dir/.default" that is another way to do
00:35:05 <coppro> boily: riichi seems to really obey that law
00:35:51 <shachaf> zzo38: But what if you try to access dir/.default?
00:36:15 <zzo38> Then it still working, I suppose
00:36:22 <HackEgo> blsqbot/blsqbot is the owner of the bot 'mroman'.
00:36:25 <zzo38> It is just same thing then.
00:39:26 -!- mushroom has joined.
00:40:08 <HackEgo> mushroom: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:40:40 <mushroom> `le/rn culprit/culprits is a program that names those responsible for a wisdom entry.
00:41:26 <mushroom> `` sed -i 's/wisdom entry/file/' wisdom/culprit
00:41:31 -!- mushroom has changed nick to badger.
00:41:38 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:42:45 <badger> `` sed -i 's#$# Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY#' wisdom/culprit
00:42:48 <oerjan> what, i thought making canary no longer a directory would fix that message :(
00:43:04 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
00:43:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
00:43:11 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary.orig: No such file or directory
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00:43:49 <badger> `` sed -i 's/culprits/`culprits`' wisdom/culprit
00:43:49 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 21: unterminated `s' command
00:43:56 <badger> `` sed -i 's/culprits/`culprits`/' wisdom/culprit
00:44:53 <badger> `` sed -i 's/names those/lists the people/' wisdom/culprit
00:45:02 <badger> `` sed -i 's/people/lists the nicks/' wisdom/culprit
00:45:44 <shachaf> i'll leave room for some badgers to do further editing
00:45:56 <oerjan> @tell Gregor `revert gives strange messages about canary.orig, i think we've played to much with the canary file (it was a directory, but is no longer)
00:45:58 -!- badger has quit (Quit: snaaaaake).
00:46:48 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:48:46 <boily> `addquote <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:48:48 <HackEgo> 1243) <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:49:14 <coppro> boily: you have to add the context!
00:49:20 <HackEgo> hg log "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
00:49:22 <shachaf> not with five badgers like that
00:49:26 <shachaf> please add three more first
00:49:37 <coppro> shachaf: you need twelve, no?
00:49:48 <shachaf> coppro: a multiple of four is enough hth
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00:50:39 -!- boily has changed nick to badger.
00:51:24 <badger> `culprits wisdom/culprit
00:51:25 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:51:52 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
00:52:07 <badger> `le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
00:52:09 <badger> `le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
00:52:13 <badger> `le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
00:52:21 <badger> `culprits wisdom/culprit
00:52:23 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:52:26 <oerjan> hint: HackEgo doesn't commit files that haven't changed hth
00:52:27 <badger> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAURGH!
00:52:38 <badger> `le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTR
00:52:41 <badger> `le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENT
00:52:45 <badger> `le/rn culprit/`culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
00:52:50 <badger> `culprits wisdom/culprit
00:52:52 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:53:11 <badger> bon. m'a toujours bin finir par l'avoir. maudite patente à gosse de marche tout croche.
00:53:17 <oerjan> incidentally i saw a badger cross the street the other day
00:53:19 -!- badger has changed nick to boily.
00:53:37 <HackEgo> *poof* <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:53:53 <boily> `addquote <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:53:55 <HackEgo> 1243) <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
00:57:22 <oerjan> also, google translate does not handle québécois well.
00:58:18 <shachaf> It should've been bin/culprits itself with that history. :-(
00:59:18 <boily> oerjan: “now. I'll finally git'er done. damned thingy that won't work by itself.”
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01:16:12 <FireFly> oerjan: why did the badger cross the street?
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01:22:04 <zzo38> How to make a CGI program that will cause Apache to request authorization?
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01:26:12 <boily> ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_(food) )
01:26:13 <idris-bot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_(food) )<EOF>
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01:30:12 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
01:38:15 <oren> normal sized faces are what america need right now
01:53:11 <oerjan> FireFly: it was its turn to visit the chicken hth
01:57:01 * oerjan is currently archive binging The Whiteboard. he's not sure if there have been any badgers yet, although the main cast includes a lot of other carnivore mammals. (and one hare.)
01:59:14 <oerjan> while waiting for doc's pizza teleporting technology to come to norway, i shall now heat one the old fashion way ->
02:00:22 <shachaf> oerjan: have you considered archive googling instead hth
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02:22:37 <oerjan> i forgot to take the ovenware out of the oven before turning it on
02:25:47 <shachaf> `learn wisdom: taking the ovenware out of the oven before turning it on
02:25:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdom:': wisdom: taking the ovenware out of the oven before turning it on
02:26:06 * oerjan hopes this doesn't mean the pizza will be burned on the underside
02:26:46 <shachaf> as they say, a clever person can get out of trouble that a wise person doesn't get into
02:27:21 <shachaf> hmm, in retrospect this is kind of rude :'(
02:27:26 <oerjan> i suppose i'm moderately clever, then
02:27:43 <oerjan> i haven't been wise for years
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02:41:54 <shachaf> oerjan: how's your norwegian pizza twh
02:47:07 <HackEgo> gotton/gotton is a quantum of attention. Solain drives the packet.
02:47:12 -!- adu has joined.
02:47:13 <HackEgo> hello/hello hello hello, what's all this then?
02:47:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
02:47:52 <oerjan> shachaf: it's the age-reknowned pepperoni and pineapple variant hth
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02:49:03 <oerjan> i should tae an IQ test. i must have dropped at least 30 points.
02:49:25 <coppro> `addquote < oerjan> i should tae an IQ test. i must have dropped at least 30 points.
02:49:27 <HackEgo> 1244) < oerjan> i should tae an IQ test. i must have dropped at least 30 points.
02:49:32 <HackEgo> 102) <coppro> what's the data of? [...] <Sgeo> Locations in a now deceased game called Mutation <coppro> I have no problems with you being interested in online games <coppro> but the necrophilia is disturbing \ 120) <pikhq> INTERNET <coppro> YAY <cpressey> Said like a once-drowning man, rescued, taking a breath. \ 296) <Gregor> Write-only IRC:
02:50:01 <oerjan> `` sed -i '1244s/< o/<o/' quotes
02:50:13 <HackEgo> 1244) <oerjan> i should tae an IQ test. i must have dropped at least 30 points.
02:53:56 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
02:54:27 <shachaf> maybe wisdom should just run ?
02:56:01 <oerjan> tswett: having an infinite file in wisdom/ makes it impossible to grep through it and stuff
02:56:28 <oerjan> or well, bloody awkward anyway
02:56:43 <tswett> If you just search long enough, you'll find what you're looking for.
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02:58:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: type: not found
03:00:07 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/entry/entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward/' wisdom/ngevd
03:00:08 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 66: unknown option to `s'
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03:00:31 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's,entry,entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward,' wisdom/ngevd
03:00:46 <HackEgo> ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
03:01:17 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf oerjan shachaf shachaf ais523 ais523 Jafet nitia
03:01:25 <oren> tswett is on fire
03:01:43 <oren> tswett is *also* on fire, that is.
03:01:52 <tswett> I'm apparently not one of the culprits?
03:01:53 <shachaf> tswett never even touched that file
03:01:58 <shachaf> why you gotta be like that
03:02:10 <oerjan> tswett: that's impossible...
03:02:22 <zzo38> That's better now it explain why you should not tamper it to make infinitely and stuff like that.
03:02:27 <tswett> I'm pretty sure I distinctly remember mucking with that file.
03:02:29 <oerjan> tswett: maybe because it was a straightup `revert
03:02:44 <tswett> `run ln -s selflink selflink
03:02:44 <shachaf> No, `revert goes in the logs.
03:02:51 <HackEgo> cat: selflink: Too many levels of symbolic links
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03:03:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:03:11 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ share \ src \ twolines \ Wierd \ wi
03:03:23 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access selflink: No such file or directory
03:04:33 <HackEgo> #esoteric is the only channel that exists. monqy is its centroïd.
03:04:49 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
03:05:11 <shachaf> `` for f in wisdom/*; do hg log "$f" | grep revert; done
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03:05:42 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <oerjan> revert 3875 \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <elliott> revert 1492 \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <
03:09:21 <HackEgo> C Pound is Java's good twin.
03:09:34 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/* | grep revert | awk '{print $2}' | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
03:09:36 <HackEgo> 28 <oerjan> \ 13 <elliott> \ 9 <shachaf> \ 3 <ais523> \ 2 <Phantom_Hoover> \ 2 <FreeFull> \ 1 <Sgeo> \ 1 <mrhmouse> \ 1 <Jafet> \ 1 <Gregor> \ 1 <Bike> \ 1 <badger>
03:10:04 <oren> and a partridge in a pear tree
03:10:12 <oerjan> tswett: something has been weird about `revert ever since we played around with ./canary the other day. it's not actually broken (any more than it used to be) though
03:11:08 <shachaf> it actually is more broken than it used to be hth
03:11:30 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
03:12:10 <tswett> `run echo '¯\(°_o)/¯' > emoticons/shrug
03:13:00 <oerjan> shachaf: is there anything other than the weird error message?
03:13:29 <oerjan> anyway tswett's wisdom/ngevd edits are clearly listed in the hg browser.
03:15:16 <oerjan> ...but not if i look at the logs for the file. sheesh.
03:17:49 <oren> `cat >emoticons/gaan <<<'(°Д°)'
03:17:49 <HackEgo> cat: >emoticons/gaan <<<'(°Д°)': No such file or directory
03:17:59 <oren> ``cat >emoticons/gaan <<<'(°Д°)'
03:18:00 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
03:18:08 <oren> `` cat >emoticons/gaan <<<'(°Д°)'
03:18:27 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaan
03:19:33 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
03:19:52 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: run: not found
03:20:27 <tswett> `run echo 'echo run run run' > bin/run
03:20:31 <HackEgo> bash: /hackenv/bin/run: Permission denied
03:20:52 <tswett> `run something else to make sure I didn't permanently break HackEgo
03:20:53 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
03:21:03 <tswett> An error message. Whew.
03:21:36 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaan
03:22:13 <shachaf> Not a fan of those things.
03:22:42 <HackEgo> atrix/Atrix is a brand of hand cream. Not to be confused with atriq.
03:23:16 <shachaf> not to be confused with atrus
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03:25:13 <oren> `` cat >emoticons/kyaa <<<'(≧∇≦)/'
03:25:32 <oren> `cat emoticons/kyaa
03:25:49 <Nihilumbra> Oh oren how do you get all these emoticons
03:26:42 <oerjan> they are spontaneously created from his intense pain of knowing japanese
03:27:00 <Nihilumbra> I don't normally type, But Im surprised how fast I can type 90-110 words perminute
03:27:01 <coppro> truly the internet's greatest repository of emoticons
03:27:15 <coppro> Nihilumbra: try typing that speed but twice as fast
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03:27:39 <oren> here is a good website: http://emoji.vis.ne.jp/
03:28:06 <Nihilumbra> What's that one disorder that makes it hard to hold stuff and your hands shake a lot because I probably have that
03:28:50 <Nihilumbra> I thought it was that but my medical terminology is out of date by a few years
03:29:01 <coppro> no, you're fingers would be fine, since you're typing at the same speed
03:29:54 <coppro> well yeah but at the same speed
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03:34:00 <oren> means he's not hundry
03:34:11 <oren> s/hundry/hungry/
03:34:27 <coppro> it means "hope that helps". it's what he says when he doesn't really
03:36:09 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/hg/hg --removed/' bin/culprits
03:36:17 <HackEgo> hg: option --removed not recognized
03:36:25 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:36:32 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/log/log --removed/' bin/culprits
03:36:39 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan tswett tswett oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf elliott oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf ais523 ais523 Jafet Jafet Jafet Jafet oerjan Jafet shachaf shachaf oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
03:37:08 <tswett> I think oerjan says "hth" at literally random times.
03:37:40 <shachaf> tswett: if they're random how do you explain the fact that they always come in pairs
03:37:47 <oren> `whereis Taneb
03:37:56 <tswett> Like, it's generated by quantum noise.
03:38:10 <tswett> shachaf: because if they came alone, they'd be affected by the Pauli exclusion principle.
03:38:18 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: i think Taneb may have stayed carefully away from that file
03:38:39 <oerjan> tswett: what a rigidulous idea tdnh
03:39:15 <tswett> oerjan: THAWFLSFYAAYSFLF
03:41:18 * oerjan thinks tswett is inviting him to a free lunch somehow but isn't sure
03:41:38 <tswett> Nihilumbra: several of those words contain asterisks.
03:41:50 <tswett> I think we should censor all but the last letter of curse words.
03:41:57 <tswett> "***k you, you piece of ***t!"
03:42:45 <tswett> Or we should use arbitrary letters, followed by three asterisks, as swear words.
03:43:11 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm hereby inviting you to a free lunch in berkeley, ca hth
03:43:21 <tswett> "You g***er, I'm gonna come over there and h*** your i***ing k***! See how you like THAT, you l***ing piece of m***!"
03:43:52 <tswett> You golfer, I'm gonna come over there and howl your itching kite! See you you like THAT, you licking piece of meat!
03:44:01 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: doesn't work in a programming channel hth
03:44:23 <tswett> > let a @#&*/ b = b ^ a in 2 @#&*/ 5
03:49:07 <zzo38> It can cause a mess, except for self-censoring where you can see properly
03:49:19 <tswett> I'll censor *** word I want!
03:49:19 <oren> I instinctually said q*** in my mind as quack
03:49:44 <zzo38> Censor it if you want to, but only your own message please
03:49:56 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: never been
03:50:03 <tswett> So that everyone can hear everything I think?
03:50:03 <zzo38> And also, if ALL of the words are censor then probably it is difficult to read.
03:50:13 <zzo38> (But, sometimes that can be the point)
03:50:58 <Nihilumbra> You seem like a reasonable person with a good personality so I presumed you had a person
03:52:06 <oerjan> i c***** see w*** s* c********
03:53:06 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: i think you pasted your password on the channel, you might want to change hth
03:54:37 <HackEgo> wlcom/Hi! This is a chat about unusual programming tools. For additional info, visit our wiki: <http://bit.ly/C4TUY>. (For unusual things of a contrasting sort, try http://bit.ly/19k9nf8.)
03:54:42 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wise: not found
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04:29:31 <tswett> Hum hum. I love trying to compile things using Cygwin that weren't intended to work in Cygwin.
04:29:43 <tswett> The program du jour is Torch.
04:31:07 <tswett> http://pastie.org/10236638
04:31:09 <tswett> /home/tswett/torch/build/exe/luajit-rocks/luajit-2.1/lj_vm.s:6: Error: unknown pseudo-op: `.hidden'
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04:32:39 <tswett> I see that .hidden is an ELF-specific pseudo-op, so it will never work.
04:33:10 <pikhq> There's no *good* reason for it to not work in PE, but yeah.
04:33:20 <pikhq> (basically, Windows toolchains suck worse than they have to.)
04:33:26 <zzo38> How do I program it so that all links to HTTPS servers will link to HTTP servers instead?
04:34:14 <pikhq> zzo38: You can't reliably -- there are hosts that do https but not http, and there are hosts where https and http serve different content.
04:35:28 <tswett> So now I'm wondering what's generating lj_vm.s, and out of what.
04:35:38 <tswett> Whatever's generating it seems to think I'm using Linux.
04:38:25 <tswett> Then, uh, how do I figure that out...
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04:46:09 <tswett> I wonder what it's actually trying to build, since /home/tswett/torch/build/exe/luajit-rocks/luajit-2.1 builds just fine.
04:53:20 <HackEgo> willkommen/Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
04:53:25 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant/misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
04:54:14 <HackEgo> browser/A browser is a Gopher client for convenient access to Gopher services and documents.
04:55:04 <Sgeo_> `culprits wisdom/Sgeo
04:57:29 <zzo38> I have been trying to find an alternative to the LinuxAssist Development Labs that I am currently using for issues-tracking/wiki of AmigaMML and possibly other programs too, because LinuxAssist Development Labs will be discontinued. I would prefer one with no HTTPS or JavaScript and all operation are possible also by command-line
04:59:38 <zzo38> (I tried asking them, they don't know)
04:59:46 <oerjan> Sgeo_: that file doesn't exist hth
05:00:01 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
05:00:35 * oerjan watches the gears in Sgeo_'s brain
05:00:57 <zzo38> Has the chage logs been removed?
05:01:03 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom: Is a directory
05:01:11 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ addwep \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ CoInS \ complain \ co
05:01:28 <HackEgo> cat: bin/\?: No such file or directory
05:01:48 <oerjan> i take it Sgeo_ doesn't have a photograph memory for HackEgo stuff.
05:03:33 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
05:04:38 <HackEgo> ` \ `? \ \ _̰̆̓_̦̻̖͍̟̖̅ͭͭͬ͡_͉̭ͧ͒̐_̯͙̬̬̦̯͂͋͒ͧ͋̋_̴̝̔̉̅ͨ͞ \ ? \ ?? \ @ \ \ \ \ ⌨ \ ⊥ \ ☃ \ 🐐 \ ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕
05:04:40 * oerjan ponders if it's evil to watch other people shave yaks
05:05:00 <Sgeo_> `culprits wisdom/sgeo
05:05:02 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan GreyKnight oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
05:05:23 <Sgeo_> Am I allowed to wtf about the gibberish in the wisdom directory?
05:05:39 <HackEgo> N,A{B7^r!'i&P=>L#GrQ;4" \ J;{T@\`_t1If<4*B˦-<.blxsjӭIh&MC%avՌ|*9;,+/%Ɲ
05:05:57 <oerjan> that one's special hth
05:06:24 <HackEgo> @ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
05:06:43 <Sgeo_> `? _̰̆̓_ÌÌ…ÍÍ̦̻̖ͬÍÌŸÌ–Í¡_ͧ͒Ì͉Ì_͂͋͒ͧ͋Ì̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̔̉̅ͨÌÌ´Íž \ ? \ ??
05:06:44 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_ÌÌ…ÍÍ̦̻̖ͬÍÌŸÌ–Í¡_ͧ͒Ì͉Ì_͂͋͒ͧ͋Ì̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̔̉̅ͨÌÌ´Íž \ ? \ ??? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:06:54 <Sgeo_> `? _̰̆̓_ÌÌ…ÍÍ̦̻̖ͬÍÌŸÌ–Í¡_ͧ͒Ì͉Ì_͂͋͒ͧ͋Ì̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̔̉̅ͨÌÌ´Íž
05:06:54 <HackEgo> _̰̆̓_ÌÌ…ÍÍ̦̻̖ͬÍÌŸÌ–Í¡_ͧ͒Ì͉Ì_͂͋͒ͧ͋Ì̯͙̬̬̦̯̋_̔̉̅ͨÌÌ´Íž? ¯\(°_o)/¯
05:07:14 <Sgeo_> I'm going to go ahead and guess something was lost in encoding
05:07:23 <oerjan> Sgeo_: wtf are you pasting utf-8 double-encoded tdnh
05:07:30 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^790887 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
05:07:53 <pikhq> UTF-8 encoding UTF-8 is a pretty terrible idea.
05:07:57 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
05:08:14 <oerjan> shachaf: it's a bit meaningless since nothing at the beginning is nicks any longer...
05:08:15 <Sgeo_> oerjan, I see a bunch of 'I' like characters
05:08:45 <oerjan> Sgeo_: me too, which i am assuming are half of utf-8 pairs
05:09:02 <oerjan> which have then been reencoded. although ... let me check the logs
05:09:13 <Sgeo_> oerjan, I saw it as HackEgo output too, not just what I pasted
05:09:33 <oerjan> yep, it's double encoded all right
05:10:19 <Sgeo_> UTF-8 should never have BELs that weren't there originally
05:10:21 <oerjan> Sgeo_: where did you see it?
05:10:35 <Sgeo_> oerjan, in the output of `ls wisdom
05:10:37 <oerjan> Sgeo_: if you mean `? ngevd that's raw urandom output
05:10:46 <Sgeo_> Oh, oops, yeah, the bel was ngevd
05:11:12 <Sgeo_> Or I assume it was a bel
05:11:18 <Sgeo_> Because my client beeped
05:12:48 <zzo38> If you are pasting UTF-8 double-encoded then use the program I wrote which will un-double-encode it!
05:13:39 <shachaf> Where can I get the program you wrote?
05:14:42 <zzo38> I think it is installed in HackEgo, but here is also the copy: http://sprunge.us/YJhQ
05:15:40 <zzo38> And it does a lot more than just that!
05:16:05 <shachaf> zzo38: What do you think of XDR?
05:16:25 <zzo38> In order to un-double-encode UTF-8 you should use the command-line argument "18"
05:16:32 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't know what it is
05:16:50 <shachaf> An old data serialization format.
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05:32:09 <zzo38> Unicode is an extremely terrible character set for terminal emulators.
05:32:56 <pikhq> It's entirely possible to make it work, but you're right.
05:33:27 <pikhq> The semantics of it only just barely work with a terminal's semantics, and even then you have to fudge a tiny bit.
05:34:51 <zzo38> Can you change the ls to not mention the PDF but rather just mention the Mercurial repository? That way would work much better and is probably much closer to what you actually intended to do if you typed "ls wisdom" isn't it?
05:35:15 <zzo38> Or else, mention to use /bin/ls in private
05:43:45 <zzo38> The ID number changed anyways, and furthermore if the default locale (rather than the C locale) is used, it is a different order anyways and won't get any nicknames
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05:57:24 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ if /bin/ls -id "$@" 2>/dev/null | grep -q ^790887 ; then echo 'As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.'; else exec -a ls /bin/ls "$@"; fi
05:58:40 <shachaf> 22:09 <oerjan> oh it changed again
05:58:54 <oerjan> no, not the id, the rest
05:59:06 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information.
05:59:33 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/790887/1053793/' bin/ls
06:00:52 <oerjan> easiest way to check that isn't dependent on exact filepath?
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06:01:31 <shachaf> Why not compare it to wisdom/'s inode rather than hard-coding it in the script, then?
06:02:10 <zzo38> Well, that's another way you can do, now you don't need to hardcode the number. (Although as I said it no longer will result list nicks)
06:03:17 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
06:03:39 <oerjan> i guess that's as intended.
06:05:18 <oerjan> that message is now deceptive as it doesn't actually work differently in private if you don't know how to work around it
06:05:53 <zzo38> I suppose that is right, but useful if you want to pipe it to something or avoid opening a web browser.
06:06:06 <shachaf> Did it ever work differently in private?
06:06:12 <shachaf> Was that by examining logs or something?
06:06:27 <zzo38> And if you do open a web browser, the Mercurial repository is more closely to what you want probably anyways.
06:13:28 <int-e> . o O ( 1053793 ==> ls -id /hackenv/wisdom | cut -d' ' -f1 )
06:14:49 <int-e> `` stat -c%i /hackenv/wisdom
06:15:18 <shachaf> only fancy when int-e does it, huh?
06:15:54 * int-e is typically only reading 20ish lines of backlog each day, sorry.
06:16:19 <oerjan> shachaf: also when i'm not paying attention hth
06:16:38 <shachaf> sorry for making you feel sorry
06:16:45 <int-e> (and I'm not reading sequentially)
06:17:01 <int-e> nah, I'm just a bad person, don't worry :)
06:17:08 <oerjan> writing long sequentially as you are
06:17:17 <int-e> at least the pet still likes me
06:17:30 <HackEgo> hand/A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
06:18:16 * oerjan throws an inebriated ostrich at shachaf
06:19:24 <zzo38> But what URL do you need for Mercurial to always access the latest copy instead of a specific changeset anyways?
06:19:44 <int-e> zzo38: replace the changeset number by 'tip'
06:20:13 <HackEgo> england/England is [EXPUNGED].
06:20:29 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan oerjan FreeFull elliott oerjan
06:20:44 <shachaf> a conspiracy of cartographers
06:22:30 <oerjan> `learn Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
06:22:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'ostrich': Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
06:22:59 <int-e> `` cd wisdom; ls | wc
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06:23:38 <oerjan> zzo38: the `url command should give you the latest version url
06:23:44 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom
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06:24:05 <HackEgo> weetoflake/Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
06:24:25 <HackEgo> universal property/Universal properties are the best.
06:26:20 <oerjan> `learn Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
06:26:23 <HackEgo> Learned 'ostrich': Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
06:27:38 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/ostrich
06:33:38 <oerjan> `learn Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them in conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
06:33:39 <HackEgo> Learned 'turkey': Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them in conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
06:37:28 <oerjan> `learn Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
06:37:31 <HackEgo> Learned 'turkey': Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
06:37:53 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
06:38:19 <Jafet> `culprits bin/culprits
06:38:20 <HackEgo> shachaf shachaf shachaf FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly FireFly shachaf
06:38:28 <zzo38> We can make RDF of the HackEgo wisdom data in order to categorize and so on. Some stuff such as contents and modification times (as well as names of any entries that haven't yet been categorized) can be automatically added by downloading system.
06:39:56 <zzo38> N-Triples is a simplest kind of way to store it, but Turtle or Xturtle is more clean for writing and reading manually. There is also Packed Binary RDF can make even more smaller file. I also made the SQLite extension it can read Xturtle file (and therefore can also read Turtle file, and therefore can also read N-Triples file) so you can also use that to import into a SQL database.
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06:41:28 <shachaf> `` echo '[[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key"; echo "made «$1»"' > bin/mk; chmod +x bin/mk
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06:43:04 <shachaf> `mk bin/mk//[[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key"; echo "made «$key»"
06:43:06 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/mk: line 2: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/mk: line 3: syntax error: unexpected end of file \ made «bin/mk//[[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key"; echo "made «$key»"»
06:43:45 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key"; echo "made «$key»"
06:46:24 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/made «$key»/$key/' bin/mk
06:52:07 <zzo38> You can also use utftovlq to swap pairs of bytes in files with even number of bytes. See? I think it has a lot of possible uses.
06:52:38 <zzo38> Not only for un-double-encoding UTF-8, or double-encoding UTF-8, or converting proper UTF-8 into CESU-8, or whatever.
06:54:15 <zzo38> Make a program "inpl" that accept a filename and command, and allow it to operate on the file in-place.
06:54:43 <zzo38> Or, the shell syntax to do such thing
06:59:22 <Jafet> The "sponge" program does that.
07:00:59 <zzo38> `? just intonation
07:01:00 <HackEgo> just intonation? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:04:17 <shachaf> `mk bin/mke//key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" || exit; chmod +x "$key"
07:04:59 <shachaf> `mk bin/mke//key=$(mk "$@") && echo "$key" && chmod +x "$key"
07:06:04 <shachaf> `mk bin/mk//[[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
07:06:05 <HackEgo> bin/mk \ /hackenv/bin/mk: line 2: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `"' \ /hackenv/bin/mk: line 3: syntax error: unexpected end of file
07:06:49 <shachaf> If you wanted to you could add mkdir -p too.
07:07:40 <zzo38> Oops now that is also broke?
07:08:00 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
07:09:23 <shachaf> `mke bin/boo//echo "$0" "$@"
07:09:36 <Jafet> `mk wisdom/just intonation//Bad-tempered people can be recognized by just intonation.
07:21:10 <zzo38> `learn Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
07:21:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'zork': Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
07:21:20 <shachaf> I didn't notice "bad-tempered" the first time.
07:24:12 <zzo38> Can you please tell me what to move all of my issue-tracking wiki into? I asked everyone else already (including the service I currently use) and they don't know. Is it really necessary to program it by myself?
07:24:35 <shachaf> What's wrong with the current issue-tracking wiki?
07:24:59 <zzo38> It will be discontinued soon and is no longer supported.
07:25:13 <zzo38> See the "Important Note" on https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml
07:25:32 <zzo38> That's what they told me when I asked them a question.
07:26:17 <zzo38> They said they can make "one or two redirects", but not who it is redirected to.
07:26:30 <shachaf> What features do you need?
07:27:10 <zzo38> Just the issue tracker and wiki and files (preferably with issue and file version numbers), really. Preferably also support command-line access, as well as web-page
07:28:02 <shachaf> Some people I know use GitHub for issue tracking and wiki and files.
07:28:06 <zzo38> And I would prefer the mob-writable-wiki rather than only some people are allowed (pages can be locked if needed; Redmine supports locking pages too but doesn't give other people access to write anyways so it isn't so useful)
07:29:13 <zzo38> GitHub seem to render slowly, and I would prefer if the server won't add extra header/footer/margins (even Redmine does it though, and I don't want it to)
07:30:01 <zzo38> I can do without the news and forums if anyone can write on wiki, since then other people can post message on wiki.
07:32:44 <zzo38> That is more precisely what I would be looking for
07:41:14 <zzo38> Maybe I have to write my own program possibly
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07:56:43 <oerjan> i quess he was before the time of wisdom
08:00:45 <zzo38> Something I did causes Apache to crash
08:01:05 <zzo38> When I put a AuthDigestFile command inside of a <Files> block
08:07:08 <izabera> is there any algorithm to factor polynomials over non commutative rings?
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08:13:07 * oerjan recalls all the algebraists at the university talking about gröbner bases. he wasn't one of them though.
08:22:03 <zzo38> Well, I managed to avoid my probme by using groups instead.
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09:00:47 <mroman_> zzo38: what's up with you and RDF?
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09:12:28 <zzo38> Well, I wrote a RDF parser, a pretty small one but that also can be used with SQLite.
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09:42:52 <zzo38> In Windows if you assign a drive letter for \Device\NamedPipe you can list the files in that directory but you cannot select that drive as the current drive.
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13:07:06 <ais523> hmm, I'm reading an article which defines a computer as alternating between an add/subtract instruction and a goto-if-zero
13:07:17 <ais523> I think it was just meant as an illustrative example, but that's TC by itself, isn't it?
13:07:31 <ais523> assuming bignums, at least
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13:09:21 <b_jonas> ais523: um, if it's alternating between add/subtract instruction, how does the goto-if-zero come into it?
13:09:34 <b_jonas> ais523: also, can it either address indirectly or write into instruction space?
13:09:57 <ais523> no, it alternates between (either an add or subtract instruction) and (a goto-if-zero)
13:10:05 <ais523> there was no implication that the instruction space was writable
13:10:08 <ais523> I think it's TC anyway though
13:10:15 <b_jonas> ais523: there are something similar, though they use only subtract
13:10:16 <ais523> minsky machine, most likely
13:10:35 <b_jonas> ais523: and they use fixed size integers and writing to instruction space or other methods of indirection
13:11:17 <b_jonas> I prefer goto-if-negative, it's better, because goto-if-zero gives you the brainfuck-like thing where you have to subtract one repeatedly to tell how large a number is
13:11:29 <ais523> b_jonas: the wireworld computer has only mov, and things like arithmetic are memory-mapped
13:11:47 <b_jonas> I just prefer to have slightly more potent arithmetic than others
13:12:16 <b_jonas> but you want one that can't indirect-address, so any program can access only fixed size memory, right?
13:12:19 <b_jonas> and you want to use bignums?
13:13:07 <ais523> well, my reasoning was
13:13:23 <ais523> if you don't have indirect addressing, you need bignums to get infinite storage
13:13:40 <ais523> if you have indirect addressing, you /still/ need bignums to get infinite storage (because otherwise the amount of memory you can use is limited by the range of an int)
13:13:50 <ais523> so it doesn't really matter whether you can indirect-address or not for TCness purposes
13:13:53 <b_jonas> I think if you have only fixed addressing AND only equal compare, then I think it's still turing-complete but you have a mandatory exponential slowdown
13:14:15 <ais523> b_jonas: hmm, we should really formalize this mandatory slowdown thing
13:14:28 <ais523> I think it's only a mandatory O(n) slowdown, but am having problems defining what n is
13:14:46 <ais523> but mandatory TCness slowdown is something I've been thinking of ever since I designed Thutu
13:14:58 <ais523> (which feels O(n) slower than other languages, even though it possibly isn't)
13:16:06 <Melvar> Isn’t such a slowdown defined as the one simulating the other requiring that function of the other’s number of steps?
13:16:24 <b_jonas> Ok, but first, you do understand why it's likely TC (you haven't defined it completely, but with some sane definition) because of reudction to counter machines that can only add 1 or subtract 1, right?
13:16:59 <ais523> Melvar: that's more reminiscent o eigenratios
13:17:00 <b_jonas> I think we can prove the exponential slowdown too, though of course only for concrete definition (or set of definitions) of the machine.
13:17:02 <ais523> b_jonas: right, yes, that's the construction I was planning
13:17:21 <ais523> Melvar: the difference being that interpreting language A in language B is different from compiling language A to language B
13:17:24 <b_jonas> I don't think the details matter too much for it actually, but you only get a formal proof that way
13:17:30 <ais523> (most obviously, you can see this when A and B are the same language)
13:17:53 <b_jonas> ais523: you mentioned infinite storage needs bignums, which is correct, and it's the key
13:18:08 <b_jonas> ais523: you can store infinite storage only in a bignum or set of bignums
13:18:18 <ais523> b_jonas: or stack or other similar recursive data structure
13:18:30 <ais523> but that doesn't work as well with these primitives
13:19:13 <Melvar> ais523: The only thing I was really thinking about was the exponential step blowup when simulating an NTM with a DTM.
13:19:33 <Melvar> Sorry for intruding when tired. .ω.
13:19:35 <b_jonas> the problem is, to retrieve the information from a single bignum that can have O(alpha) possible values, you need to run O(alpha) operations
13:19:51 <ais523> Melvar: oh right, I'll buy that
13:20:00 <b_jonas> it's a bit faster if you have more bignums, say C bignums, because then you can use O(alpha**(1/C)) operations
13:20:03 <ais523> (assuming P≠NP, at least; if they're equal it becomes rather more interesting)
13:21:17 <b_jonas> ais523: if you want to store n bits, and your program has access to C registers (memory slots whatever), you need at least some of them to store O(2**(n/C)) different values, or a bit less if you count the states of the program too but that's only constant too
13:21:44 <b_jonas> ais523: so while this isn't a formal proof, I think it shows why you need exponential slowdown to simulate random access
13:22:04 <b_jonas> it's only single-exponential, mind you
13:22:37 <ais523> b_jonas: I guess the difference is that I don't consider random access as a default
13:23:12 <b_jonas> ais523: same thing, there's only O(n**2*log(n)) or so difference between turing machine and random access
13:23:45 <b_jonas> so if you could simulate a turing machine, you could simulate a ram machine with a turing machine
13:23:59 <b_jonas> this applies for one-tape turing machine or boolfuck or whatever too
13:24:21 <b_jonas> but yes, it's no formal proof
13:24:35 <b_jonas> I think it would be possible to formalize it not too hard
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13:25:48 <ais523> b_jonas: you need to prove that at least one program actually /benefits/ from random access memory
13:26:01 <b_jonas> ais523: this is why people like the class P so much: it is a robust class that doesn't change if you use wildly different computation models
13:26:30 <b_jonas> ais523: no, you only need to prove that at least one program benefits from having exponential time as opposed to polynomial
13:27:19 <ais523> b_jonas: I mean, suppose that for all algorithms that use unlimited RAM, there's a way to rewrite that algorithm to use bounded RAM
13:27:23 <ais523> now your proof breaks down
13:27:29 <b_jonas> ais523: and, for the proof, that at least one program benefits from having a bit storage
13:27:29 <ais523> I seriously doubt that's the case but you do need to prove it isnt the case
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13:29:39 <b_jonas> I think that's actually not very hard to prove, but I'm not sure, I'm not a computational complexity expert
13:30:11 <b_jonas> for this, you only need to prove that some program needs big storage as opposed to _logarithmic_ storage
13:30:29 <ais523> that's a stronger statement, thus harder to prove
13:30:40 <ais523> than big as opposed to finite
13:31:05 <b_jonas> but still easier than to prove polynomial storage versus exponential, or polynomial storage versus linear
13:31:24 <b_jonas> those I think are difficult and one of them might be unsolved
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14:17:15 <myndzi> hah wow, people are still improving bf joust :P
14:17:30 <myndzi> i was wondering if the full site/code to run a hill are available somewhere, either the old or new ones?
14:19:04 <ais523> myndzi: just me recently, because I saw there had been no new programs in 2015
14:19:12 <ais523> I'd be happy if you came back to active competition, though
14:19:45 <myndzi> haha i don't think i can hang ;) i was mostly interested in simpler programs, not writing the kind of monster generated-code beasts you write
14:20:16 <myndzi> i was considering setting up something for our programming department, a private hill, where people could explore the game from the "noob on up" perspective
14:20:20 <ais523> hey, they're not all generated-code
14:20:30 <ais523> sometimes I write monster programs by hand!
14:20:32 <myndzi> instead of having to jump into a mature hill
14:20:35 <ais523> and, well, monolith fits on one line of IRC
14:21:20 <myndzi> anyway, it seems clear that the age of single purpose interesting tactics is somewhat over
14:21:48 <ais523> margins is like nothing else I've seen, and I'm trying to improve it locally before putting an improved version on the hill
14:22:01 <ais523> growth2, the current hilltopper, is pretty single-minded and unlike most other programs
14:22:09 <myndzi> mm, i had just glanced over the wiki but i didn't see that one
14:22:22 <myndzi> presumably there's simply no writeup yet
14:23:03 <myndzi> ahhh haha slowrush is finally gone ;)
14:23:08 <myndzi> i wonder how long it lasted
14:23:15 <myndzi> that shit was around forever
14:23:22 <ais523> myndzi: there should be a writeup at the bototm
14:23:37 <ais523> myndzi: here: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust_strategies#2015
14:24:08 <myndzi> i was more curious about the 'like nothing i've seen' comment :)
14:24:25 <ais523> oh, margins has never topped the hill
14:24:36 <myndzi> i suppose we're using the optimized interpreter now where it doesn't require expansion in memory
14:24:42 <ais523> and with many hill algorithms, could beat every single program and get nowhere near topping the hill
14:24:47 <myndzi> so writing zany huge repeated loop stuff is not as impossible
14:24:50 <ais523> err, wow you've been gone a while
14:24:56 <ais523> there are tons of interpreters that work like taht now
14:25:06 <ais523> fizzie's *lance series, Gregor's egojoust, my juiced
14:25:07 <myndzi> i remember the discussion
14:25:22 <myndzi> i'm pretty sure the lance thing was the one i was explaining how to pull it off with or something like that
14:25:32 <myndzi> i just mean, using something like that changes what's possible on the hill
14:25:37 <myndzi> and it's had time to sink in
14:25:43 <ais523> you get tons of nested % in programs nowadays
14:25:45 <myndzi> looking at the willy nilly use of *100000
14:25:51 <ais523> * has been optimized for years
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14:28:13 <ais523> well, % has been optimized for years too, but * for much longer
14:28:42 <myndzi> i think i was still participating when lance was written and i seem to remember it going into the hill
14:28:46 <ais523> some of my programs have even started using the "inside {} matches outside % rule" that was recently agreed on but I'm not sure how widely implemented it is yet
14:29:24 <ais523> myndzi: oh, if you want a hill impl, read this: http://zem.fi/bfjoust/internals/
14:30:01 <nortti> `learn grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
14:30:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'grue': grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
14:30:48 <ais523> but I mean that (a(b{c{d}e}f)%2g)%2 expands to (abbc{d}effg)%2 and then to abbcabbcdeffgeffg
14:31:02 <ais523> that wasn't really formalized beforehand, but it's the only consistent way to interpret input that looks like that
14:32:24 <myndzi> funny i'd probably have chosen the reverse
14:32:35 <myndzi> though i haven't considered whether that's easier or not to interpret
14:32:41 <ais523> try to expand that using the reverse, and you'll see why we didn't
14:34:30 <myndzi> it always kind of hurts my brain to try and interpret that syntax anyway, it's a little painful
14:34:49 <myndzi> i think the only time i understood it well was when discussing the original optimization to that business
14:36:54 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, if you expand it reverse, there'll be two non-nested inner braces
14:37:14 <b_jonas> ais523: but what happens to input like (a(b{c}d{e}f)%2g)%s ?
14:37:27 <ais523> b_jonas: that isn't currently legal
14:37:35 <ais523> no idea what the interps do
14:38:17 <myndzi> haha yeah, that looks broken as fuck ;)
14:38:36 <myndzi> i'm surprised there's a web interface to test programs but not submit them
14:38:58 <myndzi> i guess it's nice to keep people "community involved" on irc but the pastebin workaround is extra work :P
14:41:45 <ais523> I think the intention was very much to to have everything go through IRC
14:41:54 <ais523> and besides, it helps stop spambots taking over the hill
14:42:03 <ais523> that said, zemhill wasn't working last time we checked
14:42:10 <ais523> (the IRC bot, that is)
14:42:17 <ais523> so the currently active hill is egojoust
14:42:23 <ais523> it sort-of goes back and forth depending on which is functioning
14:42:39 <ais523> (it's just that I found zemhill's source link first, which is what you wanted)
14:43:37 <myndzi> are spambots capable of writing programs good enough to run it? :P
14:44:08 <myndzi> anyway yeah, the interpreter is a start, i was hoping maybe the actual site code one of the hills was open source on github basically
14:45:44 <ais523> myndzi: probably not but they take up a bunch of CPU cycles
14:45:49 <ais523> also I thought that link /was/ the entire hill, but I didn't look at it
14:45:56 <ais523> I can give you interp source if you like
14:46:33 <ais523> myndzi: yes, the link seems to be the whole hill software (see the zhill/ subdirectory)
14:46:44 <myndzi> i haven't dug through it entirely yet, i checked the readme and it was all about the interpreters
14:46:54 <myndzi> work is tugging at my attention too, see :P
14:50:26 <HackEgo> olist 990: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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20:32:32 <oren> Only wimps use tape backup: real men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it ;) -- Linus Torvalds. Only fools rely on things staying where they're put on the internet; take a copy for yourself before it disappears. -- Oren Watson
20:33:20 <oren> Seriously, the guy who was uploading all my favorite music on youtube just deleted everything...
20:34:01 <oren> My policy of downloading anything I like has paid off
20:40:19 <zzo38> I have done too downloading backup of some things
20:40:35 <zzo38> And I hoped that other people can make backup off of me too
20:40:57 <zzo38> (But I might also backup on DVD if I have such thing; currently I have no way to do so)
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20:51:58 <oren> A common idiom in many prorams I've written seems to be: loop over some sequence, and end the loop by branching to one of two control paths.
20:52:59 <oren> I don't see any reasonable way to write such idiom without using either a goto, an exception, or a temprary bool.
20:54:43 <oren> But it would be easy to write such idiom in terms of coroutines!
20:58:26 <oren> yeah. Like, one example is suppose you're searching a list for somthing. the two control paths are 'thing found' and 'thing not found'
20:58:45 <oren> but the same idiom seems to crop up a lot
21:07:09 <oren> like I think what I want is a while-if-else statement
21:11:01 <int-e> python has a for-else construct, https://docs.python.org/2/reference/compound_stmts.html#the-for-statement
21:12:54 <oren> Oh hell yes that's pretty much exactly what I want
21:56:38 <oren> How do I check that a number has only one bit on?
21:57:32 <zzo38> (x && !(x&(x-1))) in a C code is check that exactly one bit is set
21:58:43 <oren> yeah that works, thank you
22:08:21 <int-e> with unsigned types and only one comparison: x-1 < (x & -x)
22:09:02 <oren> is -x valid on an unsigned?
22:10:53 <oren> I have too many useless warnings already flooding every compile
22:10:57 <int-e> sure, unsigned types operate modulo 2^<bits>
22:11:20 -!- oerjan has joined.
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22:14:43 <oren> btw, where would you look to find a dialup modem?
22:16:14 <int-e> amazingly, ebay "modem baud" seems to turn up results.
22:16:26 <pikhq> oren: Amazon, Newegg, etc.
22:16:32 <pikhq> They still make 'em.
22:16:33 <oren> I want to get a bettwr connection directly from this computer to my other one, without going over the LAN.
22:17:09 <zzo38> If it is next to each other then use a null modem cable?
22:17:26 -!- Wallacoloo has joined.
22:17:32 <oren> the LAN is wireless and this house is crap
22:17:35 <pikhq> Yeah, a point-to-point link like that just use a null modem cable or even an ethernet cord.
22:17:36 <oerjan> int-e: so does ebay "cuneiform tablet" hth
22:18:06 <int-e> oerjan: that didn't help
22:18:43 <oerjan> didn't think it would hth
22:19:02 <oren> someone should invent a digital storage method for stone tablets
22:19:03 <int-e> oerjan: I hate you so much
22:19:20 <oren> E.g. a weather- resistant one
22:19:47 <int-e> hthnth -- hate the hater, not the hate.
22:20:44 <oren> wait cuneiform is clay tablets, not stone
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22:57:04 <boily> what was your family name again?
22:57:36 <lambdabot> shachaf said 19h 32m 36s ago: culprits lists the lists the? tdnh
22:58:34 <int-e> `culprits ../bin/culprits
22:58:44 <HackEgo> abort: ../bin/culprits not under root
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23:01:19 <oerjan> let's just assume it was a freak interdimensional glitch from a parallel earth with weird grammar
23:02:18 <oerjan> i guess the glitch meeting means it isn't quite parallel.
23:02:27 <boily> I think the Spirit of Fungot leaked. it happens disturbingly often with shachaf hth
23:03:03 <boily> everything's parallel to everything. especially seven red lines.
23:03:38 <boily> by the way, fungot doesn't answer His Capitalised Name anymore?
23:03:38 <fungot> boily: slib also pretends to provide macro systems that boast hygiene." would have been
23:03:56 <boily> fungot: ah. unhigienic macros. I should've guessed by myself.
23:03:56 <fungot> boily: i'm installing compilers on university accounts too!
23:04:06 <boily> fungot: dun dun dun! way to go!
23:04:06 <fungot> boily: fnord/ fnord/ fnord):
23:04:15 <boily> fungot: fnord fnord fnord fnord :) ♪
23:04:15 <fungot> boily: got it. use it. you can come up with a zero-knowledge proof of correctness for your interpreter. maybe i can
23:06:29 <boily> oerjan: he never did?
23:06:52 * boily doubts his sanity.
23:07:49 <olsner> oh, did you ever not doubt it? o.O
23:08:31 <olsner> fwiw, I think if you think you're insane you're probably sane
23:08:53 <boily> I AM SAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANE!
23:09:17 <boily> hellolsner. int-ello.
23:09:25 <oerjan> olsner: i doubt that hth
23:09:41 -!- nszceta has quit (Ping timeout: 245 seconds).
23:10:06 <olsner> oerjan: you doubt that I think that if he thinks that I'll think it?
23:10:22 <oerjan> er..........................
23:10:36 <olsner> hm, that's not what I said
23:10:38 * oerjan doubts olsner's sanity, just in case
23:10:54 <olsner> *you doubt that I think if he thinks that he probably is?
23:11:14 <oerjan> i'm sorry i think my brain has a stack overflow
23:11:56 * boily pats oerjan. “don't worry, everything'll be fine.”
23:12:08 <zzo38> Once someone told me he was going to change his name to Justin Sane, it was already Sane but not Justin
23:12:10 -!- lemurian has joined.
23:12:16 <olsner> well, it's if you don't worry that you really should
23:12:57 <boily> oerjan: listen to that, it'll soothe your mental stack → https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUpREizsftU
23:15:48 <oerjan> boily: gaph fnord gibble ip sneferu spiong
23:16:14 <boily> welp. oerjan broke.
23:17:47 -!- nszceta has joined.
23:18:24 <HackEgo> nszceta: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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23:21:47 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
23:22:51 <oerjan> ah it all makes sense now!
23:23:18 <oerjan> except that it also works on other files
23:23:28 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 elliott ais523 nitia
23:23:59 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit).
23:24:03 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan Phantom__Hoover elliott Sgeo Phantom_Hoover tswett elliott elliott tswett tswett elliott tswett boily boily metasepia tswett Ngevd oerjan elliott oerjan elliott Sgeo oklopol nortti elliott shachaf elliott Phantom_Hoover monqy Phantom_Hoover Phantom_Hoover shachaf Phantom_Hoover monqy elliot
23:24:36 -!- nszceta has quit (Quit: Textual IRC Client: www.textualapp.com).
23:25:06 <boily> oerjan: I asked the same yesterday. who's nitia.
23:25:12 -!- TieSoul has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
23:25:13 <HackEgo> grep: /var/irclogs/_esoteric/201[3-9]-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
23:25:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whois: not found
23:25:29 <boily> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
23:25:36 <boily> the `list is no more!
23:26:22 <oerjan> it stopped working when HackEgo stopped sharing server with glogbot
23:27:45 <oerjan> instead, we now have wiki announcements.
23:30:33 <oerjan> sic transit gloria hackmea
23:52:27 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <b_jonas> (a(b{c}d{e}f)%2g)%2 <-- i think there _is_ an obvious interpretation of that, but unlike the accepted cases it requires a significant memory overhead (e.g. a deeply nested stack) to implement
23:53:43 <oerjan> @tell ais523 i.e. you need to remember at each nesting level whether you're in a {c} branch or an {e} branch
23:55:44 <oerjan> @tell ais523 oh wait hm. that case really _is_ ambiguous.
23:56:18 <boily> no hambiguity here.
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23:57:29 <oerjan> @tell ais523 For what i'm thinking of, you can have more than one {} per % but you still need to respect matching by nesting level.
23:57:35 <zzo38> How do I find a proxy that let me to connect to HTTPS servers over HTTP instead?
23:59:02 <boily> zzo38: such a thing exists? doesn't it defeat the whole purpose of httpsing your connection?
00:00:14 <zzo38> I don't know but I want such a thing.
00:02:06 <zzo38> Some servers always redirect to HTTPS and I don't want it to do that
00:02:23 <oerjan> he's trying to generate free energy by making security experts rotate in their graves.
00:03:10 <oerjan> well that's the sanest possible use case hth
00:03:34 <zzo38> I don't want to generate free energy
00:06:15 <oerjan> by not using https whenever possible you are betraying humanity to the NSA tdnh
00:09:08 <zzo38> I don't care why can't you provide such a server?
00:10:03 * oerjan reports zzo38 to the NSA for not using proper encryption against the terrorists. oh wait...
00:11:18 <boily> aren't you both not living at all in the USA?
00:11:39 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, what reason do you have to actively avoid https?
00:11:48 <oerjan> are you saying i should use INTERPOL or something
00:12:30 <zzo38> HTTPS is causing problems, and some programs don't support it
00:13:10 <oerjan> report those programs to the NSA hth
00:13:52 <zzo38> Software exists to do this with POP3 but not HTTP, and also it isn't a public server
00:14:19 <zzo38> Don't you know NSA can crack HTTPS anyways?
00:15:32 * oerjan changes all his software to use 1048576 bit keys. that should teach them!
00:16:31 <zzo38> Yes, that should do it (hopefully)
00:16:45 <boily> oerjan: I possess the best remedy against NSA.
00:17:11 * boily uses a fountain pen and real mulched laminated dead tree sheets!
00:19:16 <oerjan> are you sure that pen isn't bugged hth
00:19:37 <boily> it's a demonstrator. clear plastic for easy inspection!
00:21:20 <boily> http://www.twsbi.com/collections/fountain-pens/products/twsbi-diamond-580al-orange-fountain-pen
00:21:31 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: the aluminium on this pen isn't transparent!
00:21:59 <boily> seen aluminium is best aluminium.
00:28:14 <boily> the statistically least bugged pen I own is my Airmail 58SL, for having disassembled it completely many times.
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00:32:02 <boily> Phantom_Hoover: do you fountain pen?
00:39:47 <boily> I think I have one somewhere, maybe at my parents'.
00:40:12 <boily> big blue translucent thing, with a nice rubber grip.
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01:04:00 <boily> ah? metal, plastic, wood, glass? size? colour? grip? texture? cartridges, plunger, siphon, eyedrop?
01:05:19 * boily wonders if he should add Phantom_Hoover's pen to the The File...
01:05:34 <Phantom_Hoover> http://img6a.flixcart.com//image/pen/h/e/g/sheaffer-342-fp-400x400-imad72dcguqcyhbh.jpeg this shape
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02:05:00 <zzo38> Can a length of a string literal be figure out in compile-time in a C code?
02:09:44 <zzo38> Actually, using sizeof works if you put -1 afterward I figured out now
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03:14:53 * oerjan assumes that's what the -1 was for
03:28:57 <oren> hmm. this chinese game boy game claims to be final fantasy IV, but I see no resemblance
03:31:28 <oren> plus the start screen has Cloud on it
03:32:38 <oren> The graphics are good and the battle system resembles FF1
03:33:03 <oren> Although I don't read Chinese
03:35:21 <oren> The start screen reads: 太空戦士IV
03:36:54 <oren> Which, means Space Soldier IV
03:37:47 <oren> Which explains why the story appears to involve starships
03:39:50 <oren> I love the fact that the chinese call space "Great Void"
03:40:02 <oren> the english word fro space sucks
03:45:51 <oren> some of these unlicensed chinese games are amazing. The one I've played the most is "Thunder Warrior: The Legend of Pikachu" on the NES, which is an apparent port of pokemon yellow
03:48:56 <oren> whoops that should be "thunder emperor"
03:52:02 <oren> well I guess it can't technically be a port, since they didn
03:52:14 <oren> t have the source code. a "remake"
04:03:20 <oren> seriously? this game has nothing whatsoever to do with final fantasy 4
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05:48:17 <zzo38> I have changed the RDF of the tropes of the level20.tex to now say <Zig-Zagging_Trope> <Footnote_Fever> instead of <Played_Straight> <Footnote_Fever>; apparently, that is what it is if one of the footnotes is referenced inside of a paper that is inside of the story rather than being the book that contains the story?
05:49:36 <zzo38> But I am pretty sure that <Played_Straight> <Evil_Chancellor> is correct.
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08:27:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gulf]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43205&oldid=43170 * 160.85.232.100 * (+8) /* Examples */
08:31:43 <mroman_> The BSD license is public-domain
08:31:53 <mroman_> Does this mean I can modify the BSD license text and use it?
08:36:44 <oren> public domain means everyone has all the rights -- i think
08:42:47 <Taneb> Have any of you seen the TIS-100 game?
08:45:40 <mroman_> K. My fancy looking Gulf website looks quite nice for now
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09:14:49 <peer> All your connection are belong to me and I can reset them any time I want to.
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09:21:38 <xfix> Hm, I'm thinking about writing a programming language based on http://www.xkcd.com/1537/
09:23:03 <Taneb> It seems quotes are greedy in that language
09:25:35 <xfix> I'm trying to understand how to implement inconsistent mechanics consistenly.
09:25:48 <Taneb> I think it's mostly consistent, just odd
09:26:22 <xfix> "+2" I believe is because 十 is 10 in Chinese or something.
09:26:28 <Taneb> Not sure what [4] and [9] are doing
09:26:42 <Taneb> xfix, I think it's adding the line number
09:27:09 <xfix> That would make sense about adding a line number.
09:27:15 <olsner> couldn't figure out 9 or 14 though
09:27:29 <xfix> I don't understand 14 either. What's the deal with disappearing 2.
09:27:35 <Taneb> [11] is adding 2 to the value of 2, so it writes 4 instead of 2
09:27:45 <Taneb> this is why it's [14] and not [12]
09:27:59 <xfix> Oh, classic Fortran.
09:28:09 <xfix> Number two was replaced with 4.
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09:28:45 <Taneb> in [6] and [7], is + being "does not have element"
09:28:57 <Taneb> As in [1,2,3] does not have element 4
09:29:12 <xfix> Perhaps it adds to a set?
09:29:13 <olsner> I guess 1,2,3,4 makes a series, 1,2,3,2 doesn't
09:29:21 <xfix> And says whether it succeeded.
09:29:48 <Taneb> olsner, that kiiiind of makes sense
09:29:55 <Taneb> xfix, I think that is equivalent to what I suggested
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09:59:15 <boily> (mouah ah ah ah ah >:D)
09:59:44 <fizzie> Taneb: Someone came here talking about TIS-100 the other day, intending to write an emulator for it.
09:59:59 <fizzie> (And I was going to buy it with the 10% discount, but then I forgot.)
10:00:07 <boily> fizzie: fizziello. do you still maintain the fizziegraphs?
10:00:12 <Taneb> fizzie, I've been enjoying it
10:00:43 <fizzie> boily: Which graphs were these? I do so many graphs.
10:01:44 <boily> the ones where there's a dot when we say something in the chännel.
10:03:56 <fizzie> I think I'v'nt ran them in a while, but I could try.
10:05:31 <fizzie> updating target 2, days 2014-03-13 ... 2015-06-12
10:05:41 <fizzie> I think I got it right, and I hadn't run it in a year.
10:09:26 <fizzie> boily: http://zem.fi/ircvis/esoteric/ should in theory be up to date. Although the list of "very important people" could stand to be updated.
10:10:35 <Guest13639> a language where syntax is locale dependant
10:10:57 <Guest13639> see. I can only come up with stupid ideas :(
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10:11:33 <boily> which regions would lock the syntax?
10:11:57 <boily> postal jurisdictions? they'd be restricting integers to stamp values :D
10:12:15 <boily> (good luck writing an international hello, world.)
10:12:22 <mroman> depending on where you live.
10:13:24 <mroman> or possibly even type names have to be written in the local language
10:13:27 <mroman> otherwise it won't compile
10:13:57 <nortti> what if the language has no writing system?
10:14:03 <mroman> Funktion Haupt Ist Zeige "Hello, world" Ende
10:14:43 <mroman> language using IPA signs (but in a correct way of course)
10:15:10 <nortti> even just for english, if you were to support variant pronounciations
10:18:41 <xfix> I also feel like making Whitespace with Unicode, except using more Unicode, and slightly less stack based.
10:18:55 <mroman> It's funny that youtube is becoming a better illegal movie streaming site than the other ones
10:19:05 <mroman> well... illegal depends on which country you live in.
10:19:26 <mroman> swiss laws allow "just watching" of all sorts of movies
10:20:51 <xfix> For example, numbers would be represented by U+200A followed by U+2000 to U+2009. The general idea is that U+2000 to U+2009 are command extensions, and other space characters are used for stuff.
10:21:28 <xfix> So there is no need for any sort of separation between functions.
10:21:51 <xfix> And functions know exactly how many arguments they do take.
10:22:47 <xfix> Additionally, U+200A could be used for code blocks, and code blocks end with U+000A
10:24:10 <xfix> And for that matter, arrays, because multipurpose commands are great when there is no ambiguity.
10:27:18 <xfix> https://gist.github.com/xfix/77b23164c5cdfff876f0 - hm, that looks quite nice, actually...
10:33:55 * oerjan isn't sure that unicode whitespace hasn't been done before
10:34:26 <oerjan> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Unispace
10:39:18 * boily sips his coffee. good coffee. "aaaaah ^^"
10:39:24 <int-e> but has it been done with only zero-width whitespace?
10:41:38 <mroman> languages that can only jump back in code
10:41:44 <mroman> can they be made turing complete?
10:42:20 <oerjan> mroman: BCT would seem to qualify
10:42:22 <mroman> like assembly languages without forward jumps
10:42:37 <oerjan> you only have one jump, back to the beginning at the end
10:42:40 <mroman> or in other words: You can't skip instructions but you can jump back
10:43:08 <mroman> there's no trivial if or while loops then
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10:45:07 <mroman> I was hoping for something more human readable/intuitive :)
10:46:00 <boily> you're in #esöteric. human readability is a side effect.
10:46:01 <oerjan> hm brainfuck with do-while instead of while, is that TC or not
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10:53:58 <mroman> http://codepad.org/asHG17GK is more or less what I was aiming for
10:54:29 <mroman> but yes, that can be reduced to brainfuck with do-while instead of while
10:55:35 <oerjan> with all those commands, you might be able to simulate skipping instructions with a flag
10:57:54 <mroman> by setting src to 1 and use cmp as a flag (either 0 or 1) which determines whether the ADD has any effect or not
10:59:08 <mroman> BTW is there any wiki admin present?
10:59:23 <mroman> I have no idea what e-mail address is registered for my account
10:59:42 <mroman> and sadly I have no idea what I chose as a password :(
11:01:41 <mroman> either that or the forget password mail gets stuck
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11:03:38 <oerjan> i suspect i'm not privileged enough to see your email address, but i assume fizzie is
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11:05:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Jumpback]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43206 * 160.85.232.100 * (+1109) Created page with "'''Jumpback''' is an esoteric programming languages with no forward jumps. == Instructions == <pre> MOV dst, srcCopy src to dst ADD dst, srcAdd src to dst SUB dst, src..."
11:08:52 <oerjan> mroman: i sent you a test email
11:09:09 <oerjan> with Cc: to myself, so we'll see if it's broken in general
11:10:47 <mroman> with cc you should see what my e-mail address is
11:11:07 <mroman> Let's hope it's not clonkturm@gmx.net
11:11:10 <oerjan> it would still be Bcc:ed to you
11:11:29 <oerjan> you'll see mine, of course
11:11:47 <oerjan> not that i've received any Cc: yet...
11:12:47 <oerjan> i don't think senders are supposed to be able to see the address of the recipient unless they respond, anyway.
11:15:08 <oerjan> @tell fizzie mroman is having problems getting password reset email to work, is outgoing email from the wiki server working?
11:15:08 <mroman> I haven't received anything so far on the e-mail accounts I know of.
11:15:33 <mroman> (and still have access to)
11:16:42 <oerjan> i haven't received the Cc: either
11:17:12 <oerjan> @tell fizzie I haven't received Cc: on my test mail either.
11:17:49 <oerjan> @tell fizzie (BTW he's User:Feuermonster)
11:19:55 <mroman> that nick dates back to me using the internet at age 12 or something :D
11:22:42 <mroman> It's from a multi-player 2D game I used to play
11:23:07 <mroman> http://clonk.de/classics.php?lng=en
11:23:31 <mroman> http://clonk.de/video.php?lng=en&id=cr
11:23:56 <mroman> the trailer is probably more significant
11:24:10 <mroman> (since compared to other game trailers it actually shows ingame footage)
11:27:13 <oerjan> is it one of those red monsters at 0:43
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11:28:25 <Lyka> need a new antivirus: bitdefender vs kaspersy?
11:29:09 <mroman> It's actually a proprietary 2D game engine with lots of "official" contents and thousands of user-made content
11:29:19 <mroman> well.. it was proprietary. It's open source now.
11:31:39 <mroman> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xq3oK-kaANk for example is Quake for Clonk
11:33:44 <mroman> That's why it was so successful
11:37:57 <mroman> but there was always just a small core community of a few dozen people
11:38:07 <mroman> and they have all grown old now :)
11:38:49 <mroman> until Clonk Rage came out, which gained some popularity and the community grew a lot with young kids for a while
11:39:01 <mroman> but young kids today rather play CoD than games like this :)
11:43:33 <mroman> which also applies to the older ones :)
11:45:22 <mroman> It's not exactly a platformer :)
11:45:34 <Lyka> which av do you recommend?
11:46:31 <mroman> which took the Clonk Rage source code and are trying to create something new out of it
11:46:34 <mroman> http://www.openclonk.org/
11:46:42 <Lyka> does anyone care about my question?
11:47:01 <Phantom_Hoover> Lyka, since i have no idea what 'av' means i can't really answer
11:47:28 * oerjan this time just kept the one that came with windows
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11:48:27 <oerjan> and on my previous laptop i changed _to_ microsoft's av because the one i was using started to get annoyingly nagging
11:48:56 <mroman> http://blog.openclonk.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Raid.png
11:49:03 <mroman> it has made some good progress lately it seems
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11:54:39 <mroman> but this confirms that "access to guns" doesn't necessarily mean more crime
11:54:45 <mroman> it's just the people that suck :)
11:56:54 <FreeFull> Access to guns means that you get more accidents where you are shitty at gun safety, and your toddler picks up your gun and shoots you
11:57:29 <FreeFull> No, seriously, that does happen
11:57:40 <mroman> If you place your gun where a toddler can pick it up you're a fucking moron
11:57:52 <FreeFull> For example, it happened to a policeman during a wedding
11:57:56 <mroman> Do you know how many households have guns in switzerland?
11:58:54 <mroman> "compulsory military service"?
11:59:21 <FreeFull> I imagine less Swiss people are unsafe with a gun though
11:59:26 <mroman> We had three guns at home
11:59:37 <mroman> father's, brother's and the other brother's gun
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12:00:03 <oerjan> i don't think that _quite_ implies everyone having a gun, it certainly didn't in norway back when military service was genuinely compulsory
12:00:03 <mroman> but you're obviously supposed to take certain parts away from the gun
12:00:11 <mroman> and store those in seperate locations
12:00:17 <FreeFull> If anybody ever tries to invade Switzerland, Switzerland will win
12:00:40 <mroman> oerjan: well not everybody
12:00:44 <Phantom_Hoover> that access to firearms alone doesn't mean high gun violence is pretty widely acknowledged
12:00:49 <mroman> just the ones deemed fit for military service
12:01:07 <Phantom_Hoover> since all you need to do to see it is look at the guns per capita and the gun deaths per capita in the usa vs. any other country
12:01:07 <oerjan> mroman: ...my point still applies.
12:01:32 <FreeFull> I wonder if I'd be able to get through the physical to get into military service
12:01:33 <mroman> everybody deemed fit enough and still in military service
12:01:45 <mroman> old people at some point are retired and they have to give the gun back
12:02:37 <mroman> gun crimes are a cultural thing.
12:03:43 <mroman> FreeFull: physical entry exams are usually pretty low demanding actually
12:04:29 <mroman> And I base that on the USMC PFT
12:04:36 <mroman> which requires a mere 3 pull-ups
12:05:50 <mroman> 2.4km is what you should be able to do in 12min
12:05:55 <mroman> and that's not even a good score
12:07:08 <mroman> how much is 3 miles again?
12:09:48 <mroman> that gives you 6min exhaustion
12:10:28 <FreeFull> mroman: You underestimate how long it's been since I last exercised
12:11:08 <mroman> I haven't done any 12min runs for the last years either
12:11:14 <mroman> so I don't know how I stand there
12:12:08 <mroman> and I've trained that for months now and it doesn't get any better
12:12:20 <mroman> so I assume 12 pull-ups is pretty much my body's natural peek of what it can do
12:12:33 <FreeFull> I don't know how many pullups I can do
12:12:46 <mroman> without using a specific diet or extra nutrition/protein shakes and the like
12:13:25 <mroman> FreeFull: Yeah but really all it takes is like 20min of exercise every other day
12:14:34 <mroman> unless you want to run a marathon
12:14:42 <mroman> but to stay "averagely fit" it doesn't take much
12:19:40 <FreeFull> mroman: I don't do 20 min of exercise a day
12:19:57 <FreeFull> My minutes of exercise a day are in the negative numbers
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13:09:01 <nys> i stick with pushdowns
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14:06:26 <mroman> http://mroman.ch/burlesque/new.html
14:06:40 <mroman> trying to get the webpage back
14:20:18 <mroman> (more good looking than it currently is)
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14:37:58 <mroman> I took the liberty to state that this is the help channel for burlesque :p
14:38:24 <mroman> not that I'd expect strangers to suddenly appear here
14:50:10 <int-e> heaven forbid, we might have to talk to people we don't already know!
14:51:26 <paul2520> mroman: http://mroman.ch/burlesque/hackmode.txt not found
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15:32:11 <Taneb> I may have just spent £50 on boxes
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16:33:05 <Taneb> WHAT IS THE WORD FOR WHEN YOU DON'T HEAR ABOUT SOMETHING THEN HEAR ABOUT IT FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES ALL AT ONCE?
16:34:11 <lemurian> the Phrase "living under a rock" coems to mind
16:35:13 <Taneb> It's like "Oh, that's interesting.", then "Yes, Alice told me that the other day." then "Oh, that fact is now on Reddit, huh", etc
16:38:10 <Taneb> I want to call it synchronicity
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18:23:58 <oren> At your discretion you may also take the aforementioned code under
18:23:58 <oren> any other license, providing that that license does not impose any
18:23:58 <oren> duties or obligations upon me, Oren Watson.
18:24:14 <oren> ^ does the above sound legal enough
18:25:37 <Taneb> I'd say "Other licenses available by request" to make sure you don't get screwed over
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18:26:19 <oren> Well given that the initial license is CC0
18:27:55 <oren> The main issue is people making a license that imposes upon me a duty of care to debug the code for them
18:29:02 <oren> I'm not sure it's possible for them to do that, but I want to prevent it in case the powers that be decide it is
18:31:13 <oren> Ah fuck it, "Other licenses available upon request" is good enough to stop that too
18:35:55 <int-e> 'Affirmer offers the Work as-is and makes no representations or warranties of any kind concerning the Work [...]' <-- that should cover your worries (but obviously, I'm not a lawyer)
18:36:32 <int-e> (from the CC0 legal text, section 4)
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18:41:37 <oren> ` ps -axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
18:41:37 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
18:41:46 <oren> `run ps -axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
18:41:47 <HackEgo> warning: bad ps syntax, perhaps a bogus '-'? \ See http://gitorious.org/procps/procps/blobs/master/Documentation/FAQ
18:41:54 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep irssi
18:42:13 <oren> hackego isn't running irssi?
18:42:34 -!- copumpkin has joined.
18:43:16 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep bash
18:43:17 <HackEgo> bash Sat Jun 13 18:45:05 2015
18:43:49 <oren> oh, look, I reimplemented the date command
18:45:32 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep mysqld
18:45:56 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart | grep apache
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18:47:22 <oren> `run ps axo comm,lstart
18:47:22 <HackEgo> COMMAND STARTED \ init Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kthreadd Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ ksoftirqd/0 Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kworker/0:0 Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kworker/0:0H Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kworker/u2:0 Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ khelper Sat Jun 13 18:49:11 2015 \ kdevtm
18:47:44 <oren> `run ps axo comm
18:47:44 <HackEgo> COMMAND \ init \ kthreadd \ ksoftirqd/0 \ kworker/0:0 \ kworker/0:0H \ kworker/u2:0 \ khelper \ kdevtmpfs \ netns \ kworker/u2:1 \ writeback \ bioset \ kblockd \ kworker/0:1 \ kswapd0 \ fsnotify_mark \ deferwq \ init \ init \ init \ sh \ sh \ ps \ cat \ umlbox-mudem
18:48:16 <oren> `run ps axo comm | tail
18:48:17 <HackEgo> init \ init \ init \ sh \ sh \ bash \ cat \ umlbox-mudem \ ps \ tail
18:48:28 <oren> wow that's all?
18:56:14 <HackEgo> STARTED \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02 \ 18:58:02
18:56:25 <HackEgo> STARTED \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13 \ 18:58:13
18:57:12 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaan
18:59:31 <oren> it really starts up the whole environment afresh with each command???!?!
19:16:15 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
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19:33:04 <int-e> http://airportnavfinder.com/airport/EGPR/ ... have a look at the maps with the three "runways" :)
19:34:37 <oren> Should be 'surface: salt water'
19:34:45 <int-e> nice, one can search for ICAO codes on google maps
19:34:52 <int-e> oren: it depends on the tides
19:35:22 <Taneb> int-e, that isn't an error, wow
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19:56:20 <zzo38> How can you make a JavaScript code in a web page that overrides events for clicking links to other parts of the same page? One wiki has problem so I want to override it in the custom script
20:10:59 <oren> es = document.getElementsByTagName('a'); for(i=0;i<es.length;i++){if(es[i].href.indexOf('#')==0){es.onclick=';'}}
20:11:14 <oren> es = document.getElementsByTagName('a'); for(i=0;i<es.length;i++){if(es[i].href.indexOf('#')==0){es[i].onclick=';'}}
20:12:25 <oren> hmm, apparently you need to do
20:12:48 <oren> function(){} instead of ';'
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20:31:03 <zzo38> The onclick doesn't seem to be set already though
20:32:52 <oren> maybe also set the href to '#'?
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20:34:52 <zzo38> No the href is already correct, it links how it is supposed to
20:35:17 <zzo38> But clicking those links causes it to immediately go back and then forward again to the linked item, and then if back is pushed it refuses to go back.
20:37:10 <oren> right, a # link causes the whole page to be refreshed.
20:39:06 <oren> If you don't want that, you need to override onclick, and set the focus to the linked item, and manipulate the history using window.history
20:40:12 <zzo38> But what about, events added using addEventListener or so on?
20:40:49 <zzo38> Or an event which is not on the link itself
20:41:32 <oren> Hard to predict the possiblities, but if you set your own onclick, then consume the event, it won't bubble to enclosing elements
20:49:49 -!- b_jonas has joined.
20:50:10 <FireFly> As far as I know, it's not possible to see listeners added via addEventListener
20:53:23 <HackEgo> ==> emoticons/gaan <== \ (°Д°) \ \ ==> emoticons/kyaa <== \ (≧∇≦)/ \ \ ==> emoticons/shrug <== \ ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:56:19 <oren> maybe I should have put in a longer one,
20:56:29 <oren> liek ｶﾞ━━(ﾟДﾟ;)━━━ﾝ!!!!!
20:59:01 <oren> ``cat >emoticons/gaaan <<<'ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ'
20:59:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `cat: not found
20:59:06 <oren> `` cat >emoticons/gaaan <<<'ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ'
20:59:39 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaan
20:59:43 <oren> `cat emoticons/gaaan
21:00:37 <oren> gaaan is a general expression of severe shock or dread in Japanese manga
21:03:14 <oren> most of these jis emoji don't look right in a terminal
21:04:21 <pikhq> That's cause your terminal sucks.
21:05:06 <oren> does your terminal check the font to see how wide a character is?
21:06:14 <pikhq> No, but JIS emoji assume a fixed width font...
21:06:44 <oren> yes but they also assume that Д is a wide character
21:07:52 <pikhq> That's just brain damaged.
21:08:04 <oren> they assume that any character outside JIS 0201 is a wide character,
21:08:24 <oren> because that is how all fixed-width japanese fonts render
21:09:30 <pikhq> Which is... incorrect.
21:09:43 <oren> So it shows up fine in a browser if you have the right fonts, but in a terminal, they assume instead unicode width, which fucks it up
21:09:53 <pikhq> Oh, doh, it's not fixed width it's bizarre proportional width.
21:09:58 <pikhq> K, it won't ever work in a terminal.
21:10:21 <zzo38> Unicode is a bad idea for terminal emulators
21:11:58 <oren> EUC-CN is better
21:12:15 <pikhq> Which also means it'll only work rendered with MS PGothic (or anything with similar characteristics)
21:12:42 <pikhq> zzo38: Unfortunately, all other encodings suck.
21:12:53 <pikhq> Meaning that Unicode on a terminal is, well, what's gonna happen.
21:13:13 <oren> or really any EUC-XX is better than Unicode for fixed width stuff
21:13:56 <pikhq> Eh, just means wcswidth is easier. The real trick with terminals really is handling bidirectional text.
21:14:27 <oren> just write it backwards. PHP has 'hebrev()' function for this.
21:15:00 <pikhq> But that's incorrect.
21:15:03 <oren> you could easily write one that works for all R2L languages
21:16:10 <pikhq> The terminal's supposed to display it properly. Doing that just happens to suck. :)
21:20:24 <oren> I have no idea how they do arabic in a terminal?
21:20:55 <oren> do they just use the isolated form of every letter?
21:21:43 <zzo38> Unicode is terrible too though. ASCII is work good
21:22:57 <pikhq> I believe they just put the normal string in there.
21:23:48 <zzo38> Defining width, kerning, ligature, right-to-left, etc should be defined by the font metric file using whatever character encoding it defines (which is allowed to be Unicode if it wants); the rest of the program knows nothing about this, furthermore these font metric file aren't for terminal but are for typesetting instead.
21:24:22 <pikhq> This means that libc has to know about the font being used?
21:25:01 <zzo38> No, libc ought not to care at all.
21:25:11 <pikhq> But it has to know the character width.
21:25:32 <zzo38> And should just assume one byte = 1 width unit
21:25:38 <pikhq> But that is wrong.
21:25:55 <zzo38> Doesn't it work for Shift-JIS though?
21:26:12 <pikhq> wcswidth *does* know the character set.
21:26:41 <pikhq> Anyways, a 4 byte UTF-8 character is not inherently 4 cells.
21:27:03 <zzo38> I know that, but, it can even be ambiguous too
21:27:13 <zzo38> Better is to not use wcswidth at all
21:27:36 <pikhq> Then how do you know the width of a string in units of terminal cells?
21:27:46 <zzo38> It is dumb for terminal cells to use UTF-8
21:27:50 <pikhq> (hint, a lot of fancier use of the terminal HAS to know that)
21:28:03 <zzo38> Like they said EUC would be better
21:28:08 <pikhq> But that's the thing: terminals *in practice* use UTF-8.
21:28:10 <zzo38> But you can also tell by querying the terminal if you need to
21:28:13 <pikhq> Because everything else uses UTF-8.
21:28:27 <zzo38> Well, I don't, I use VT100 and PC characters
21:28:31 <pikhq> Because everything else is only usable by a subset of humanity.
21:29:13 <zzo38> You should use an encoding with explicit widths.
21:29:28 <zzo38> If you need right-to-left, specify by a control code.
21:29:37 <pikhq> Unicode *has* character width defined, it's just in a lookup table.
21:29:41 <zzo38> Unicode isn't the encoding though, and UTF-8 doesn't have explicit widths
21:29:49 <zzo38> Encodings such as Shift-JIS do
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21:30:27 <pikhq> Except no-they-don't, the rule "1 byte per 1 cell" is not entirely correct. :)
21:31:00 <zzo38> Yes they don't quite there are other problems too
21:31:59 <zzo38> A better encoding would be: Wide characters are two bytes in 0xA0-0xFF range; narrow characters are 0x20-0x7E or a SS2 or SS3 code followed by any 0xA0-0xFF or 0x20-0x7E code.
21:32:25 <pikhq> Oh good! It's *stateful*.
21:32:44 <oren> pikhq: it is entirely correct with a SJIS font!
21:32:59 <zzo38> (And then also SO and SI, to select additional characters such as line drawing)
21:33:01 <pikhq> oren: ... Which are proportional, not fixed width.
21:33:24 <oren> Try the font MS Gothic
21:33:33 <oren> Not MS PGothic, MS Gothic.
21:33:45 <zzo38> (Also degrees, British pound sign, pi, etc are also selected by shift out)
21:33:46 <oren> Or any other non-P japanese font.
21:34:01 <pikhq> MS Gothic is not the font used for SJIS art.
21:34:36 <oren> Correct, however it DOES have 1-byte-per-cell when used with SJIS encoding
21:34:40 <pikhq> zzo38: ... stateful. Stateful sucks.
21:34:51 <pikhq> oren: Okay, then that's just terrible. :)
21:35:14 <pikhq> And means that the rendering of text changes if you convert to unicode...
21:35:19 <pikhq> Which doesn't seem right.
21:35:38 <zzo38> Then you shouldn't convert it to Unicode, except if you are going to convert back to Shift-JIS
21:35:59 <zzo38> Unicode is really terrible
21:36:12 <pikhq> It is significantly better than all alternatives.
21:36:19 <oren> EUC-CN is better
21:36:21 <pikhq> Unless you seek to eliminate most languages.
21:36:39 <pikhq> oren: If you seek to eliminate most languages.
21:37:00 <zzo38> Even Unicode fails to encode a lot of stuff properly
21:37:41 <zzo38> You need to do it by font-metric files. This way you can define your own metrics for private-use as well as non-private codes.
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21:38:17 <zzo38> Commodore 64 codes
21:38:46 <zzo38> Constructed scripts (which is done by CSUR; there is also LINCUA which uses private use area for another purpose)
21:38:46 <pikhq> That's not "a lot", but sure, that is missing and maybe shouldn't be.
21:39:09 <pikhq> FWIW constructed scripts *may* go in Unicode... They just mostly haven't.
21:39:32 <zzo38> And there are many problems with what the various characters mean in situations, which can depend on language and other stuff
21:42:51 <oren> there is plenty of room in the EUC codes for accented letters and the like. their omission is purely because the existing EUC codes are country-specific
21:43:14 <pikhq> Good luck avoiding being country specific while improving Unicode.
21:43:23 <pikhq> (... no, seriously, I wish you the best of luck.)
21:48:17 <zzo38> My own design it uses 8-bit codes, but the codes are taken from a user-definable lookup table of 12-bit codes (the lookup table itself uses 9-bit codes though), but it guarantees 1 byte = 1 cell (except control characters which take up no space, but may still move the cursor), correct ordering, etc. This design is only for display though and is not designed for typesetting. (Also some codes can be used for user-defined characters)
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21:49:06 <zzo38> This code does not include right-to-left languages, but you do have hiragana/katakana, Russian, ISO-8859-1, PC character set, Commodore 64, Apple Mousetext, Infocom character graphics, VT100 character graphics, etc
21:49:31 <zzo38> (The control codes are the same too)
21:50:29 <zzo38> You can easily know which 12-bit codes are control codes; they are the ones with the three high-bits all set!
21:50:44 <oren> I think there is a middle ground between encodings like EUC-JP or Latin-1 on one hand, and Unicode on the other. Consider if we support a subset consisting of only those unicode characters which are fully composed, do not link into ligatures, and are not copies of another character.
21:51:12 <pikhq> Then you still will not handle all languages.
21:51:15 <oren> (by copies, I mean to exclude the damned math italics)
21:51:21 <zzo38> oren: That is useful when you want to encode the text into a format that uses Unicode, such as in RDF.
21:52:02 <zzo38> Such subsets can then be used when you want to support only such subsets but make it compatible with program that render/search arbitrary Unicode texts too.
21:52:20 <oren> pikhq: right, but it would support _most_ languages, and in particular those which work well in a grid
21:53:12 <zzo38> Like I said, it is useful when you need to convert such text into Unicode, and/or decode it from Unicode.
21:55:16 <oren> I think you could cut it down to 0x7f80 non-ascii characters.
21:55:42 <oren> If you could, then the result would be a byte-widthed encoding.
21:55:59 <oren> (Assuming the font treats all non-ascii as wide)
21:56:52 <zzo38> Even if it doesn't treat all non-ASCII as wide, you can make some prefixes considered "control codes" which mean ones that start with those are narrow.
21:57:22 <oren> 0x7f80 = 128 non-ascii start characters, followed by 255 non-zero end characters
22:04:11 <zzo38> If the string contains no control codes and all non-ASCII characters are wide, then it is in fact just the number of bytes = number of cells.
22:05:22 <zzo38> Your idea seem like it would be pretty good encoding for terminals.
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22:06:06 <zzo38> Except that some narrow characters then won't work, unless you use a "prefix of narrow codes"
22:06:26 <zzo38> Which makes it only *slightly* complicated.
22:09:33 <oren> yeah. but at least the width is always <= number of bytes, which is not the case for utf-8 by a long shot
22:09:51 <HackEgo> quote/Quotes are just elements of the quantum dilapidated bogosphere. See qdb.
22:10:34 <HackEgo> sleep/Sleep is for the weak.
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22:26:25 <oren> Alternately, for byte-guzzling no-good-niks: use a 14 pixel high, 1 pixel wide font for double-byte characters. transmit any non-ascii character as an image formed from these thin slices.
22:28:06 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
22:35:37 <zzo38> I suppose for picture terminals it can help, or for a terminal with a picture mode in addition to the standard text mode.
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22:53:42 <b_jonas> oren: nice! I was thinking of using 9 wide 1 high font in text mode to create monochrome graphics once,
22:54:06 <b_jonas> because I think you can put the Linux text console to such a mode without root permissions
23:03:33 <int-e> b_jonas: how about a 4x2 font with the braille subset of unicode...
23:04:00 <b_jonas> int-e: no, this would allow a higher resolution
23:04:12 <b_jonas> though only a lower refresh rate than a real graphics mode
23:04:19 <b_jonas> so a real graphics mode is still preferable
23:04:52 <zzo38> You shouldn't even use the Unicode there, although making it 4x2 helps so that you can convert it to Unicode at least.
23:12:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I still have a problem with the braille subset of kanji (though if you're misusing them for graphics, it's irrelevant)
23:14:19 <b_jonas> Namely that there's no code places yet for the braille cells that extend the normal 6 point cells with two points _above_ the cell, as opposed to below. Those cells are used for "Katenji", the more believable one out of the two experimental systems to encode Japanese text with the kanji fully represented.
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23:43:56 <HackEgo> sgeo/Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
23:45:45 <oerjan> let's not bring the carnage here tdnh
23:47:38 <oerjan> `learn Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
23:47:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'metaplace': Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
23:48:45 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; rgrep invented * | grep -v Taneb | sed 's/:.*//' | xargs
23:48:46 <HackEgo> cpressey mroman Binary file reflection matches rtf sgeo twoducks unicode
23:50:08 <shachaf> reflection is not helpful for grep tdnh
23:51:14 <shachaf> `` cd wisdom; rgrep i[n]vented * | grep -v Taneb | sed 's/:.*//' | xargs
23:51:15 <HackEgo> cpressey mroman rtf sgeo twoducks unicode
23:51:41 <oerjan> we had to that back with `logs, i remember
23:51:53 -!- simpleirc has joined.
23:52:17 <oerjan> munge regexes to avoid them matcing themselves
23:52:27 -!- simpleirc has changed nick to trinna.
23:52:37 <shachaf> I couldn't parse your sentence and then I realized it was probably missing the word "do".
23:54:02 <HackEgo> 977) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫ \ 985) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar
23:54:46 <oerjan> `` quote ♫ | tail -n +1
23:54:47 <HackEgo> 977) <kmc> ok im sober now and DNS makes sense again [...] <kmc> Domain Name System [...] <kmc> ♫ domain name system ♫ \ 985) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar
23:54:50 <int-e> fizzie: oh speaking of DNS, how's the esolangs.org takeover going?
23:54:59 <oerjan> hmph why can i never remember tail's syntax
23:55:32 <oerjan> `` quote ♫ | tail -n +2
23:55:32 <HackEgo> 985) <kmc> and then one day you find, ten years have got behind you, no one told you when to run, you missed the starting gun <kmc> ♫ <kmc> ♫ ♫ ♫ <kmc> (Unicode needs a character specifically for "Pink Floyd guitar solo")
23:55:40 <oerjan> i just had an off by one error
23:56:07 <shachaf> more like tail has an off by one error hth
23:56:10 <oerjan> shachaf: the syntax for counting from the beginning instead of the end
23:56:22 -!- trinna has left.
23:56:25 <shachaf> even more annoying is tail -c +1
23:57:27 <HackEgo> copumpkin is categorically incapable of being president.
23:57:42 <shachaf> copumpkin: is that still true outside of CT land?
23:58:10 <copumpkin> I will never be a "natural born US citizen", so yes
23:58:40 <b_jonas> you could just lobby to change that rule
23:58:50 <shachaf> maybe i can be president of the copumpkin fan club
23:58:51 <oerjan> copumpkin: you could perhaps become president of another country
23:59:01 <copumpkin> my other country doesn't have presidents!
23:59:21 <copumpkin> I'm also eligible for italian citizenship, which does have a president
23:59:33 <copumpkin> but I'm not sure they allow naturalized citizens to become president either
23:59:45 <oerjan> copumpkin: i was more thinking of finding a country which has no natural-born rule
23:59:59 <oerjan> pretty sure norway doesn't, alas we have a king.
00:00:01 <copumpkin> yeah, but most countries are sticklers for citizenship requirements
00:00:13 <shachaf> I'm a citizen of three countries which all have presidents.
00:00:14 <copumpkin> as far as I know, I'm only eligible for one citizenship I don't have
00:00:24 <shachaf> copumpkin: I hear it's pretty easy to buy some more.
00:00:26 <copumpkin> except for the ones you pay for/invest
00:00:39 <shachaf> I don't think I can be president of Finland either. :-(
00:00:44 <copumpkin> yeah, I think panama will let me become one if I invest a mere $1m into it
00:00:46 <oren_> Ok, I THINK that's the last bug
00:00:54 <oerjan> well for norway you'd have to live there for 7 years unless they've changed that (and getting permission to live there might be tricky for many people)
00:01:32 <b_jonas> copumpkin: yes, the UK would be much more difficult to change. I wouldn't recommend that.
00:01:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: oren_ found the last bug| The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
00:01:44 -!- oerjan has set topic: oren_ found the last bug | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
00:01:50 <int-e> oren_: haha!, wait, are you serious?
00:01:53 <HackEgo> 806) <Phantom_Hoover> unfortunately df is not yet able to simulate norway \ 1087) <Bike> are you saying the rockies and some mountains in norway are the same range \ 1231) <oerjan> i guess norway just isn't cold
00:02:14 <oren_> int-e: sort of. I don't SEE anyhting worng out of 10 games I've tested
00:02:27 <b_jonas> copumpkin: try for President of Republic in Hungary. there's no requirement that you have to be natural born, you only have to be a citizen and at least 35 years old.
00:02:40 <copumpkin> how do I get hungarian citizenship though?
00:02:44 <oren_> So it appears that the scrolling interpolation is bug free.
00:02:46 <shachaf> Are there countries that don't require you to be a citizen?
00:03:09 <shachaf> i might run for president of hungry
00:03:11 <oerjan> copumpkin: you could theoretically perhaps become president of the eu parliament
00:03:26 <int-e> oren_: ah so you have reached the point where "common usecases almost never break".
00:03:38 <copumpkin> can I just be the president of computing perhaps?
00:04:07 <shachaf> outlaw turing completeness
00:04:22 <shachaf> or just outlaw nontermination
00:04:30 <oren_> int-e: yes, where "common usecases" includes obscure Chinese unlicensed games
00:04:44 -!- Wallacoloo has quit (Quit: Leaving.).
00:04:46 <oren_> Well, actually, I don
00:05:13 <oren_> t technically know that it works with nintendo licensed games
00:05:44 <oren_> Since I have long since beaten all those and therefore haven't been playing them...
00:06:00 <oren_> (all the ones I liked anyeay)
00:06:13 <shachaf> copumpkin: did you move yet?
00:06:15 <b_jonas> copumpkin: I think it's not very hard. you have to claim Hungarian ethnicity, which is the fastest route; or live here for a very long time, which is the slow route; or I think marrying a Hungarian citizen might also work as a fast route; or become a very good olympic class sportsman in a team sport and express your interest in playing in the Hungarian team if only you had citizenship, which is like the fastest express route
00:06:25 <copumpkin> shachaf: in the next couple of weeks :S
00:06:45 <copumpkin> no hungarian background unfortunately, and not very sporty
00:06:48 <copumpkin> so I'd have to live there for a while
00:07:04 <copumpkin> I also hear hungary has draconian drug laws
00:07:14 <b_jonas> copumpkin: of course, just becoming a citizen isn't enough, getting the parliment to actually elect you as president is difficult. can you have mind control a hundred adults?
00:07:31 <shachaf> copumpkin: I hear just about every country has draconian drug laws.
00:07:39 <b_jonas> copumpkin: you don't have to _have_ hungarian background, you just have to claim and be able to fake it a bit. you may have to learn the language and culture a bit, but it's not very hard to do.
00:08:03 <b_jonas> copumpkin: ethnicity is subjective so you can always claim you feel you are Hungarian.
00:08:17 <copumpkin> shachaf: particularly draconian ones
00:08:33 <copumpkin> I was actually particularly stupid about that
00:08:41 <FireFly> b_jonas: do you have any express route tips for becoming 35 years old?
00:08:56 <copumpkin> I bought a smallish bag o' weed while I was in amsterdam and forgot I had it
00:09:01 <copumpkin> went all around europe, got down to croatia, then crossed by train to hungary
00:09:10 <oren_> My greatuncle became 18 at 14
00:09:52 <shachaf> What's with lots of drugs being illegal by default everywhere, anyway?
00:09:59 <b_jonas> FireFly: I think the Chinese can give some hints for that. they supposedly aged some young gymnasts for the olympics illegally.
00:10:06 <copumpkin> I hear they throw foreigners in jail for years all the time over shit like what I did
00:10:18 <copumpkin> still clueless, I realized I had it in my hotel in budapest
00:10:22 <copumpkin> and figured I might as well smoke it
00:10:31 <copumpkin> still didn't get caught, but it would've been bad
00:10:59 <b_jonas> shachaf: they're not illegal "by default". they explicitly made them illegal.
00:11:28 <b_jonas> copumpkin: um, doesn't weed sometimes leave a characteristic small they can find even if they don't catch you red-handed?
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00:11:34 <b_jonas> I don't really know, maybe that's some other drugs
00:11:42 <copumpkin> it does, but we smoked out the window
00:11:52 <oren_> weed only smells when it is smoked
00:12:11 <b_jonas> copumpkin: oh yeah, out of the window. that's what all the tobacco smokers say, but you still get the room smelly when you do that.
00:12:34 <b_jonas> no, I don't buy "out of the window" unless you actually go to the balcony.
00:12:39 <copumpkin> or perhaps if I go back to hungary they'll arrest me on the spot
00:12:41 <oren_> Right. people who smoke (either one) can't detect the smell of their drug
00:13:03 <b_jonas> copumpkin: admittedly, the workers who clean up your room might not recognize what it's the smell of. I wouldn't.
00:13:16 <copumpkin> "I just happened to have a pet skunk"
00:13:30 <b_jonas> I don't know how many people know what weed smells like.
00:13:49 <b_jonas> I have almost no experience with drugs, luckily, so I don't know.
00:13:54 <oren_> I know because of my parents
00:14:23 <copumpkin> it's fun, but I prefer being lucid
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00:17:49 <shachaf> smoking seems to me like a pretty unpleasant way to consume drugs
00:18:10 <oren_> Apparently a vaporizer is much better
00:19:23 <shachaf> Maybe I should say "inhaling".
00:19:30 <oren_> the only drug I take is coffee and on special occasions alcohol.
00:19:47 <oren_> So I would not know form personal experience
00:20:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: I think it depends on the particular drug
00:20:20 <b_jonas> some of them are used intravenously, or so I hear
00:21:50 <oren_> I would suspect that those would be ones that are destroyed by stomach acid?
00:22:11 <oren_> and can't be brought to high temperatures
00:22:59 <oren_> A pharmacologist (or pharmacology student) would know
00:26:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> What's with lots of drugs being illegal by default everywhere, anyway? <-- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Convention_on_Narcotic_Drugs hth
00:34:05 <oren_> Hey, apparently LLVM is optimizing out infinite loops!
00:39:13 <oren_> http://pastebin.com/0ZZwEKiq
00:39:32 <oren_> Under -O3 llvm outputs fail
00:39:43 <oren_> er, the resulting program does
00:40:49 <oren_> That is, IMO, a huge bug
00:41:37 <b_jonas> oren_: make a small testcase, make sure it's really a bug, not some mistake you made, report the bug
00:42:15 <oren_> there is a testcase in the pastebin above
00:46:16 <zzo38> Can you do coroutines in LLVM?
00:48:21 <zzo38> oren_: It should depend whether or not the infinite loop contains any external effects (including I/O, interrupts, accesses to volatile variables, and "do not optimize" flags).
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00:49:19 <oerjan> <oren> hackego isn't running irssi? <-- why in the world would a bot use irssi
00:50:04 <HackEgo> bonvenon/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
00:50:08 <HackEgo> oerjan/Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
00:50:08 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
00:50:09 <oerjan> it sounds like the worst possible thing to parse the output of
00:50:37 <oren_> zzo38: I would say that whether a program terminates is the most fundamental side effect
00:50:39 <shachaf> considering making slashlearn use mk
00:50:53 <oerjan> oren_: unless it's actually written in irssi script, that is.
00:52:33 <zzo38> oren_: Yes it is, therefore a "do not optimize" flag after the loop also has to avoid it since the loop terminated, reaching the "do not optimize" flag even though it is supposed to be unreachable. This can make it a bit difficult.
00:53:15 <zzo38> Otherwise the infinite loop should just be optimized into a single command which specifies that it is an infinite loop.
00:53:58 <zzo38> So, I say it should optimize it, but rather than removing it entirely, it needs to optimize into a "please wait forever" command.
00:54:42 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm all for modularization hth
00:54:56 <shachaf> oerjan: so you're ok using // instead of /?
00:55:03 <zzo38> And then, the C interface of the instruction architecture and operating system defines what the "please wait forever" command means.
00:55:19 <zzo38> I say that slashlearn shouldn't be changed in this way; if you need it, use mk instead
00:55:22 <oerjan> shachaf: well it's a feature
00:55:56 <shachaf> i'll make le/rn use / and le//rn use //
00:56:32 <oren_> Looks like they alread know about this bug,
00:57:23 <zzo38> Regardless of how "please wait forever" is defined though, the specification must require that if the command ever returns, what happens afterward is undefined unless the program halts immediately; if it does halt immediately, it must be an error condition if the operating system supports these kind of error conditions.
00:57:42 <zzo38> It is allowed to define "please wait forever" as a simple infinite loop too though.
00:57:42 <HackEgo> [[ "$1" == *//* ]] || exit 1; key="${1%%//*}"; value="${1#*//}"; echo "$value" > "$key" && echo "$key"
00:58:58 <zzo38> That's my opinion: If the infinite loop contains no external effects, it is allowed to optimize it into a "please wait forever" command. Does this seem like OK? (This also mean you can find this command in the optimized intermediate code if you look)
01:00:29 <oren_> There is a halt instruction on many architectures
01:05:48 <zzo38> Presumably on most systems it would actually compile into a program that does nothing and never finishes. For LLVM the "please wait forever" command would be considered as terminating a basic block; therefore the stuff after the infinite loop can be deleted by the optimizer.
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01:25:28 <zzo38> SELECT TOTAL(RDF_VALUE(X))/COUNT() FROM G { ? a :Person; :age ?X }; -- That is a kind of "SQL+G" that I almost made up (but didn't implement), so that you can combine SQL with RDF.
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01:31:08 <zzo38> (Assumes that you have already issued a CREATE PREFIX or CREATE TEMPORARY PREFIX command to define the empty string prefix.)
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02:29:26 <oren_> Damn. My algorithm does the most work when there isn;t any work to be doen
02:29:55 <oren_> I need to cahe the results somehow
02:31:28 <oren_> i only need like, 2 bits
02:31:51 <oren_> those are some expensive bits to compute
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07:03:59 <zzo38> fowl: What is that?
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07:22:03 <fowl> zzo38: I'm writing a VM and and and it just did a correct operation
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07:45:56 <zzo38> Why can't I post a comment on http://www.websnark.com/archives/2005/10/god_shot_think.html ? It displays an error message but the HTTP response code is actually 200 OK
07:46:07 <zzo38> "Got an error: Bad ObjectDriver config"
07:48:08 <zzo38> Henn is bad too, but that is not seen in the pictures displayed there.
07:49:07 <zzo38> (As far as I am concerned, you can see from the full context that Suzy and Henn are both bad.)
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08:31:36 <mroman> paul2520: Oh. hackmode has been removed from Burlesque anyway. I'll remove the link.
08:37:40 <zzo38> OK, what is that hackmode that has been removed?
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09:05:50 <mroman> zzo38: It mapped Burlesque commands to single bytes
09:06:10 <mroman> but since Burlesque now has way more than 256 commands
09:06:38 <mroman> There are 388 non-special builtin-ins as of now.
09:09:08 <mroman> although 1.7.3 probably had less
09:11:17 <mroman> I'm updating the lref for 1.7.4 now
09:11:25 <mroman> and then maybe I can convince shinh to update it on anagol
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09:20:39 <zzo38> You could still use Huffman coding or VLQ coding
09:23:57 <zzo38> To make secure communication on internet what you should need is to avoid webpages completely and instead do this: Manually agree the keys in person, including a security card that displays a number and automatically updates by time. Server sends a challenge that is encrypted using a hashcode of your password and the security number as the key. Client then responds to the challenge and communicates securely using session keys.
09:28:37 <zzo38> (If you are paranoid, use two such security cards; one locked in your desk drawer and one in your pocket.)
09:33:17 <mroman> Netflix seems paranoid
09:33:23 <mroman> Doesn't even support paypal well.
09:33:55 <mroman> (meaning you can't pay with paypal pre-paid)
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10:03:15 <mroman> The US could just ban toy weapons...
10:04:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43207 * Rdococ * (+2001) PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
10:05:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43208&oldid=43068 * Rdococ * (+55) PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC again
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10:10:29 <mroman> Although arguably there should be better methods to take such people out without injuring them too badly.
10:11:44 <mroman> also don't give pellet guns to 12 year olds. That's stupid anyway.
10:15:43 <mroman> in general I don't like people who accuse you of doing something wrong without first discussing what should've/could've been done. Even if you clearly did something wrong, it's not a constructive thing to do.
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10:18:10 <mroman> although it looks like the us police's method is "disable threat as quickly as possible"
10:18:18 <mroman> compared to "isolate threat as quickly as possible, then proceed"
10:19:32 <mroman> and this is of course incredibly generalizing and based on no data other than some of the news report I got my hands on ;)
10:41:56 <HackEgo> Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
10:41:58 <HackEgo> grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
10:42:02 <HackEgo> Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
10:44:24 <boily> how do I notes again... and is that a universal currency over there?
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10:53:59 <boily> @tell oerjan your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it!
10:54:42 <boily> @tell oerjan (on the other hand, syntastic is complaining like crazy)
10:59:35 <boily> and looks like I'm missing some other stuff. stuff that will be fixed after lots of coffee, nutella toasts, and half a tournament.
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12:55:36 <fungot> mroman: we're wednesday and the earth!! god bless america!! i want a cl/ fnord thing there.
12:56:08 <mroman> at least fungot seems to be patriotic.
12:56:09 <fungot> mroman: it was close. because of erlang's guard clause syntax, it's a catastrophe. between that book, actually.
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14:40:09 <tswett> Hey everyone, remember boiljan?
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15:15:37 <b_jonas> quick question. can a 400 character long alt text written literally in a HTML attribute cause any compatibility problems on browsers? eg. could it cause the image not to show up?
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16:46:23 <J_Arcane> b_jonas: IME even on super old browsers, long alt text tags just get cut off.
16:50:22 <oren_> hmm. Paradoxically, the cpu load is higher when memoizing previous results, than when computing them over and over again
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16:51:54 <b_jonas> J_Arcane: I was worried that maybe some parsers will reject the whole entity because it's too long, and assume it's an unescaped less than sign
16:52:29 <J_Arcane> Could be, but the last time I saw a problem with an alt-text, it was that exact one, and it was in the days of like, Netscape Navigator.
16:52:44 <J_Arcane> It's possible a newer one might be more likely to complain than an older one. :D
16:53:23 <b_jonas> I don't care if the alt text is just truncated
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17:28:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Genesis]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43209 * 78.148.92.128 * (+65937) Created page with "Genesis 1 1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 And the earth was waste and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep: and the Spirit of God mov..."
17:32:24 <gamemanj> Um, that doesn't look like an esolang...
17:34:01 <nys> don't be narrow-minded, now
17:38:39 <J_Arcane> gamemanj: long, unintelligible, prone to contradictions, and impossible to assemble a coherent logical system from. Sounds like an esolang to me.
17:52:23 <gamemanj> J_Arcane: Along with features that should never be used (such as a certain type of tree), yet are anyway?
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18:09:25 <J_Arcane> Perl Cannot Be Parsed: A Formal Proof http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=663393
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18:42:38 <quintopia> is there a type of oracle that can answer questions that could not be answered with the use of a halting oracle?
18:43:51 <Taneb> Fundamental Truth Oracle
18:45:11 <pikhq> The Turing-machine-plus-halting-oracle halting oracle.
18:50:06 <tromp_> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arithmetical_hierarchy
18:50:51 <quintopia> Taneb: i meant without assuming omniscience.
18:51:27 <int-e> quintopia: then you don't have an oracle?
18:52:03 <quintopia> int-e: a halting oracle is not omniscient! it can tell you if your program halts, but it can't tell you your middle name.
18:52:22 <int-e> quintopia: right. go with pikhq's answer then
18:52:43 <pikhq> My middle name is Joseph iff your program halts.
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18:54:47 <quintopia> huh. my program was "if (pikhq_middle_name == "Joseph") exit(0) else: while true: pass"
18:55:28 <int-e> what a remarkable coincidence
18:55:46 <int-e> so now that the universe is inconsistent, let's have some fun...
18:56:30 <quintopia> good thing pikhq's middle name has no bearing of the contents of the string pikhq_middle_name...
18:56:49 <int-e> (let's convince a bank that 1 = 0, say, and use that fact to withdraw tons of money... I suspect there is some sort of flaw in that plan)
18:58:49 <b_jonas> int-e: http://www.xkcd.com/816/
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19:06:48 <gamemanj> Especially read the title text, it points out a flaw in your plan
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19:15:29 <int-e> I had forgotten about this xkcd although it looks like one that I should've remembered.
19:26:43 <zzo38> I don't expect a bank to believe it; and even if they do it would be for number systems (such as the trivial ring) which is not applicable to how much money is in your bank account.
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19:28:53 <b_jonas> http://www.xkcd.com/704/ is also relevant
19:29:57 <gamemanj> Hey, if anything can be derived, does that make Malbolge usable by humans?
19:38:47 <fowl> If Perl parses Perl then Perl must not be unparsable
19:41:42 <gamemanj> fowl: The point seems to be that you can't parse it without executing it to find out the meanings of some parts.
19:45:26 <pikhq> Which is to say parsing Perl is computationally equivalent to executing a universal Turing machine.
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19:49:47 <zzo38> Not only Perl, but also Forth and TeX
19:52:58 <fowl> gamemanj, im not sure about that
19:53:03 <fowl> no functions in perl take arguments
19:56:20 <oren_> fowl: they don't take NAMED arguments
19:56:51 <oren_> however when you call x with x(3,4), then inside x, you can get 3 and 4 as
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20:33:36 <tswett> Combientièm is, of course, unparseable, for the same reason that Forth is.
20:35:37 <tswett> Combientièm seems complex enough that Turing-completeness is likely.
20:46:49 <zzo38> I have implementation of biquad filter with four coefficients and I figured out that you can use -1 0 0 0 BIQ and 0 0 1 0 BIQ to seem to make up derivative and antiderivatives.
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21:40:27 <shachaf> `le/rn equal temperament/Equal temperament is just intonation that's evenly spaced.
21:40:33 <HackEgo> Learned «equal temperament»
21:41:44 <HackEgo> nimby/NIMBY : Not in my backyard.
21:41:45 <HackEgo> arrow/Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
21:41:48 <HackEgo> rtf/RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
21:43:12 <zzo38> I don't know who Rich Burlew is
21:45:09 <zzo38> O, now I can see on Wikipedia
21:45:19 <Taneb> `culprits tanebvention
21:45:24 <zzo38> He makes stick figures.
21:45:26 <Taneb> `culprits wisdom/tanebvention
21:45:28 <HackEgo> oerjan Taneb oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan FireFly oerjan boily oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan
21:46:29 <zzo38> I don't use miniature figures for Dungeons&Dragons though, just graph paper
21:46:36 <FireFly> `` culprits wisdom/tanebvention | sed 's/\<[dop]/:&/g'
21:46:37 <HackEgo> :oerjan Taneb :oerjan elliott :oerjan :oerjan FireFly :oerjan boily :oerjan ais523 ais523 :oerjan
21:46:45 <FireFly> well that was a bit disappointing
21:47:18 <zzo38> What are you trying to do?
21:47:26 <Taneb> zzo38, when I play we generally just sort of imagine it
21:47:42 <Taneb> If we need reference we use miniatures on an erasable surface like a whiteboard
21:48:13 <zzo38> When I play also we just generally imagine it, but use graph paper when we want to know where everything is in relation to other things more precisely.
21:49:05 <Taneb> In one of the games we are in we are hiding in an airship meant as a decoy for us (arranged without our knowledge)
21:49:19 <Taneb> The logic being that no-one would think to search the decoy
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21:51:46 <zzo38> Yes, that is one idea of where to hide.
21:52:09 <HackEgo> orin/orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
21:52:15 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus/lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
21:52:19 <HackEgo> orin/orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
21:52:52 <HackEgo> ørjan/Ørjan is oerjan's good twin. He's banned in the IRC RFC for being an invalid character. Sometimes he publishes papers.
21:53:16 <zzo38> Generally though in my game when we hide, they often find us anyways because enough people are looking for us with enough persistence that they will eventually succeed. But sometimes I decide to hide in the future instead.
21:53:46 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf shachaf
21:53:55 <Taneb> zzo38, none of our party are time travellers (yet)
21:54:30 <Taneb> (the party's wizard may become a time traveller later)
21:54:36 <zzo38> Well, I can jump forward in time and take some other creatures and objects too, but that uses up power points and it doesn't go all that far either.
21:55:10 <zzo38> (I have hidden objects in the future too, not only characters)
21:55:12 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
21:55:15 <HackEgo> structsubural type/Something Bike is into. Not to be confused with suburban destruction.
21:55:35 <HackEgo> alice/Alice doesn't want to go among mad people.
21:55:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: a time traveller wizard? nice
21:55:54 <b_jonas> wait, power points? are you a psion?
21:56:02 <zzo38> b_jonas: It isn't very powerful time travel
21:56:08 <zzo38> Yes, psionics and wizard, both
21:56:24 <b_jonas> there are people who do both psionics and wizardry?
21:56:39 <b_jonas> that's a combination I wouldn't have imagined
21:56:42 <Taneb> b_jonas, our wizard is also a rogue
21:56:51 <Taneb> My character is just a cleric though
21:56:57 <zzo38> And my sister played a sorcerer/fighter combination
21:57:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: in what order did that happen, and what are the relative power of your relative strengths in psionisc and wizardry, and what did you do that helps both?
21:57:24 <Taneb> I keep a "kill" count of enemies I have forced to leave combat (I am playing as a pacifist)
21:57:29 <Taneb> It is on 17 and I am level 3
21:57:31 <b_jonas> do you use many magic items? do you create magic items?
21:57:39 <zzo38> I don't use many magic items or create any
21:57:51 <zzo38> Refer to my "level20.tex" file for full details.
21:57:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: I can understand sorcerer/fighter
21:58:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: um, what's its url again?
21:58:09 <Taneb> zzo38, which edition do you play?
21:58:49 <zzo38> I started without a spellbook, and therefore couldn't cast many spells except the mastered spells, until finally figuring out the spells again in spare time and writing them down in a book.
21:59:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
21:59:15 <Taneb> I am in a game of 4th edition (where I play the pacifist cleric), and a game of 5th edition (where I play a paladin who is not pacifist)
21:59:29 <zzo38> (The file is pretty long; read all of it if you *really* want to understand)
22:00:22 <zzo38> I also wrote all of the macros by myself too, which includes sorting skills in alphabetical order automatically, keeping track of items and levels, footnotes, and more
22:01:58 <Taneb> Goodnight everyone
22:05:01 <zzo38> I started the game without any items at all.
22:05:37 <zzo38> So did my brother's character, Also
22:05:42 <zzo38> (Also is his name)
22:06:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: did you start as a wizard?
22:06:53 <zzo38> It says so on the page
22:06:59 <zzo38> But I started with enough levels to have both
22:07:42 <b_jonas> I should be reading the character sheet at the start
22:08:10 <zzo38> (The .dvi is available too if you want a prerendered copy; that one only includes the character sheet at the end though.)
22:08:33 <b_jonas> no thanks, tex is easier to read
22:08:58 <zzo38> (If you want a character sheet before each session, you must compile it youself; it will then ask you what level of detail you want, such s to omit footnotes and to omit character sheets and so on)
22:09:35 <zzo38> To compile it yourself you need the "dungeonsrecording.tex" file too (in the same directory)
22:09:44 <b_jonas> hmm, these starting ability scores seem funny. are those normal for an illithid?
22:10:05 <b_jonas> isn't he supposed to have a dump stat or something?
22:10:10 <zzo38> I used the "Goldilock's Method", which is something in between random and point-base
22:10:38 <zzo38> (And a program on my TI-92 calculator to calculate it)
22:11:12 <b_jonas> sure, but did you get adjustments for being an illithid?
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22:12:13 <zzo38> Those are factored in to the "Goldilock's Method".
22:12:32 <zzo38> Although you also get bonuses for high level too.
22:13:19 <b_jonas> yes, but even with high level it seems to high and too uniform
22:13:32 <b_jonas> a very high level character would likely have a dump stat
22:15:28 <zzo38> When characters have high ability scores due to species the level adjustment compensates for this (and other things)
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22:15:59 <zzo38> The reason for being uniform is mainly due to the Goldilock's Method though; it is possible to make less uniform scores, but not always. I can explain its working
22:16:40 <b_jonas> (I have two dump stats in real life. I don't know how easy it is to guess that from irc.)
22:17:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: I also don't know how easy it is to guess; I never tried to think of it so I don't know
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22:17:52 <b_jonas> (People who know me well in real life can probably tell.)
22:19:20 <zzo38> [1] Choose a number 0 to 9 for each ability score (there are no limits about duplicates, the total, etc). [2] Add 1d8 to each one. [3] Convert each of these numbers into percentages of the total. [4] Use a lookup table to convert into plain numbers. [5] Apply racial modifiers. [6] Repeat steps 2-5 to create another set of ability scores. [7] Choose one. [8] Get 2 bonus points (or 3 if the total without the racial modifiers is less than 70).
22:19:25 <b_jonas> oh, I see! you get psionic abilities not from a player class, but from a race class!
22:19:29 <b_jonas> that makes much more sense
22:20:23 <zzo38> Some people say this method results in unusually *low* scores. Actually, they result in about average scores, although you don't have as much control as you do with a full point-based system.
22:20:54 <b_jonas> sure, full point-based gives you ultimate control
22:20:55 <zzo38> The numbers you choose in step [1] are too high, they will become more uniform than you might want.
22:21:26 <b_jonas> and if they are low, then step [2] will screw them up
22:21:57 <zzo38> Best is probably choosing high numbers for scores you want high.
22:22:13 <zzo38> But remember you do get two chances to apply step [2].
22:23:23 <b_jonas> are racial modifiers constant terms you add? or are they more complicated?
22:23:49 <zzo38> They are constant terms (usually even numbers) that you add (or sometimes subtract, but subtracting is rare when the level adjustment is high).
22:24:17 <b_jonas> I don't recognize most of these psionic abilities and some of the spells, but that's normal
22:24:51 <zzo38> Some of them are obscure.
22:25:17 <zzo38> And a few of them I even made up and got reviewed from the referee and other people.
22:26:11 <b_jonas> oh right, this is the non-flying type of illithid. that's why it has feather fall.
22:27:01 <b_jonas> but I don't get this. how many levels of each class do you have? I don't see that in the character sheet.
22:27:41 <zzo38> That is what the \Class command does.
22:28:04 <zzo38> The \RacialHD are also levels, and \LevelAdjustment are pseudolevels.
22:28:20 <b_jonas> oh, so, both \Class Wizard=5 and \RacialHD=8
22:28:53 <b_jonas> isn't \LevelAdjustment the challenge rating (difficulty) adjustment, which adjust how much XP you get and what encounters are considered fair?
22:29:12 <zzo38> No, level adjustment is independent of challenge rating (which we ignore).
22:29:15 <b_jonas> s/encounters/encounters and other challenges/
22:29:21 <zzo38> For calculating experience points, pseudolevels count too; for other purposes (such as the amount you heal), pseudolevels aren't counted.
22:29:58 <b_jonas> but the experience points tell what challenges are considered fair, do they not?
22:30:44 <zzo38> They generally are supposed to (LA is for PCs and CR for NPCs is generally the consideration, kind of), but our group just ignores CR and uses only ad hoc XP.
22:31:24 <b_jonas> and that applies both when you defeat a challenge and get XP, and when you are defeated and someone else gets XP from you, right?
22:31:58 <zzo38> The winner's LA and loser's CR is generally what is supposed to apply.
22:32:16 <zzo38> (But NPC's XP are rarely kept track of, but sometimes are)
22:32:47 <b_jonas> wait, does that mean that in this game your level adjustment only matters if someone gains XP from from you?
22:33:09 <b_jonas> oh, you mean the adjustment tells how much XP you need to get the next XL?
22:33:13 <zzo38> No. Level adjustment is used to figure out how much experience points you need.
22:33:32 <b_jonas> though if you use ad-hoc XP then that probably doesn't mean much either
22:33:34 <zzo38> So your total real levels + pseudo levels is the level that you need to reach by experience points.
22:33:47 <b_jonas> thank you for the explanation
22:34:19 <zzo38> So it *is* important; it makes it harder to go up levels, and whatever level you start at, the level adjustment therefore decreases your starting level (but not your experience level) to compensate.
22:35:09 <b_jonas> sure, but the input is the ad-hoc XP
22:35:22 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, plus the starting level.
22:36:00 <b_jonas> you could just as well track ad-hoc fractional XLs, without counting XPs, and give the ad-hoc XLs so it's harder to level (but also harder to lose a level from spending XP)
22:36:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: I think that is more complicated though and makes it difficult
22:37:05 <zzo38> For example, a player enters a game starting at level 10, and chooses a character with LA+3 and RHD+2, they get to create a 7th-level character with 5 class levels, but starting with as much experience points as a 10th-level character.
22:38:16 <zzo38> If you are using the encounter XP tables, the experience level is the one that counts here. (If you aren't, then it is irrelevant unless the referee still wishes to scale by level, in which case you should probably still use experience level)
22:39:21 <zzo38> The example character will be vulnerable to spells that affect 7th-level characters (even if they don't affect 10th-level characters), will heal only 7 HP per day (rather than 10 HP), and so on.
22:40:40 <b_jonas> what? there's a racial HD adjustment that can be positive for players? and isn't it the starting CR rather than the starting XL that's supposed to be specified, rather than the starting XP?
22:40:48 <zzo38> My own game design (which is extremely incomplete and mostly abandoned) doesn't use the term "level adjustment", but it does have "pseudolevels" which is the similar concept.
22:41:24 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, there can be. And it is the starting experience level which the game master specifies.
22:41:50 <zzo38> (However, specifying starting XP also implies what the starting experience level is anyways.)
22:42:36 <b_jonas> I mean it seems you specified the real starting XL, rather than the one adjusted with the LA.
22:42:43 <b_jonas> that's what I find strange
22:43:15 <zzo38> The LA makes makes the actual level less than the experience level.
22:44:06 <zzo38> For balacing purposes it is common to specify the starting experience level or experience points instead of only counting real levels.
22:44:08 <b_jonas> well, I guess specifying a starting XL is also how crawl works,
22:44:18 <b_jonas> but that's a single-player game
22:44:49 <b_jonas> isn't it approximately equal _adjusted_ levels that would make a better adventuring band of player characters?
22:45:16 <zzo38> It is; the term "level adjustment" is a bit confusing and I don't like it; it should be called "pseudolevels".
22:45:52 <b_jonas> maybe this is why the CR and the adjusted level are separate
22:45:57 <zzo38> (i.e. actual levels + pseudo levels = experience level)
22:46:13 <b_jonas> the adjusted level tells how fast you gain levels, the CR tells how powerful you are
22:46:27 <b_jonas> if you share XP equally, then you'd level equally if you had the same adjusted level
22:46:46 <b_jonas> s/share XP/share XP gains/
22:47:18 <zzo38> If you use encounter XP tables and have the same experience level, and you share them biased by level, you do all level equally.
22:48:09 <b_jonas> but maybe all that's irrelevant here because you have only two players and they're both of races with a high positive adjustment
22:48:09 <zzo38> So if your experience level is 10, it is as hard to level up as any 10th-level character, even if your actual level is only 5.
22:48:19 <b_jonas> not, like, a doppelganger and an orc
22:48:56 <zzo38> Actually more players join the game later, and some also leave later. Iuckqlwviv Kjugobe is the only character that remains (so far; possibly one of the others might return later?)
22:49:17 <b_jonas> for how long in real world time has this game been running?
22:49:25 <zzo38> Look at the session headings.
22:49:49 <zzo38> (Search for the first and last instances of "\session" in the document.)
22:50:11 <zzo38> (And then subtract the dates. But remember it still isn't complete, so you might want to use today's date instead)
22:50:58 <b_jonas> basically about four years so far
22:51:25 <zzo38> I intend also improving the story line, and I have a trope page (and trope RDF file) about it too.
22:53:25 <zzo38> http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38/level20.tex
22:53:38 <zzo38> That's the trope page on wiki.
22:53:47 <b_jonas> sorry, I won't look at that now
22:54:21 <zzo38> OK, you can look later (or not at all if you really hate to look at it ever, but you are allowed to change your mind later too)
22:54:34 <zzo38> And the RDF is: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope
22:57:33 <b_jonas> basically, I just spent most of today (and some of yesterday) standing in awe because of the new special and awesome MLP episode, finding more and more awesome details and references in it (sometimes alone, sometimes after reading spoilers)
22:58:08 <b_jonas> I'm not going to attempt looking at any other fiction work in detail now
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23:02:19 <b_jonas> it's basically a deliberately very unique special celebratory episode that's different from normal episodes.
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23:03:05 <b_jonas> I totally didn't expect this, and it's awesome.
23:03:22 <zzo38> What is tihs episode?
23:04:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's S5 E9 "Slice of Life" (gimmick scheduled for this particular episode because it's the 100th ep of the tv series)
23:04:41 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 10m 43s ago: your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it!
23:04:41 <lambdabot> boily said 12h 10m ago: (on the other hand, syntastic is complaining like crazy)
23:05:04 <b_jonas> and it's an episode celebrating and thanking the unique fandom the series (in slightly broader sense) has gathered
23:06:05 <b_jonas> it does this by presenting a story where the regular main and secondary characters appear very little, several background characters are expanded, and canonizes a selection of fan speculation about them
23:06:55 <b_jonas> and has lots of (sometimes well hidden) funny little details, references to previous episodes of the series, and references to fanon
23:07:02 <zzo38> Ah, so that's what it is.
23:07:11 <b_jonas> also some references to other fictional universes
23:07:32 <b_jonas> and it manages to be heartwarming and amazing according to many people
23:07:39 <zzo38> I know a lot of people like this TV show.
23:07:55 <b_jonas> (obviously you can always find some people who don't like any one particular episode, there are a few for this too)
23:08:03 <oerjan> zzo38: those must be some strange people
23:08:03 <b_jonas> (you can't go for universal acclaim)
23:08:16 <oerjan> (also i need my brain's parser recalibrated)
23:08:47 <zzo38> I know, this may happen even with other TV shows too, chapters in a book, comic strip, whatever, where some people might not like some of them, even people who mostly like it in general.
23:08:48 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, in particular, a lot of geeks are watching it, so there's even a little intersection with #esoteric
23:09:09 <b_jonas> also, given that they did this for the 100th episode, it will likely be unique even in the future
23:09:23 <b_jonas> not something they'll regularly do
23:09:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: the way how many geeks seemed to like it is what made me interested in first place
23:10:44 <zzo38> Ah, well, the way how many geeks seemed to like it does seem a reason to make it worth a try at least to look at it.
23:11:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: and, I mean, they looked like they were the kind of geeks similar to me (at least some of them are)
23:12:31 <b_jonas> also, apparently it has a lot of role-playing fans
23:13:20 <b_jonas> it helps that I knew even before that that I like cartoons and like fiction that's advertized by publishers for juvenile audience
23:13:38 <b_jonas> so those heuristics matched
23:15:09 <b_jonas> also, the music of the first four seasons is nice
23:15:09 <zzo38> Well, like any one, some cartoons/fictions I like and some I don't like much. It is also a bit independent what kind if intended/advertised audience, too.
23:15:36 <zzo38> Yes, some TV shows have nice music on it
23:15:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: the "advertized for juvenile audiences" might be a red herring actually
23:15:53 <zzo38> And some computer games have nice music
23:16:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes, I have been told that too
23:17:20 <b_jonas> as in, I don't like romantic fiction at all, and romantic fiction is usually advertized to adults, which alone carries a lot of weight
23:17:47 <b_jonas> and I definitely grown to hate most non-fiction works advertized to children or teenagers these days
23:17:59 <b_jonas> as in, pop science books for them
23:18:12 <b_jonas> I used to sort of like them as a child
23:18:38 <zzo38> It is pretty similar for me too I think
23:19:08 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> @tell oerjan your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it! <-- actually i checked that the quotes already contained that note character.
23:19:08 <b_jonas> the day I realized Quittner Pál's booklet about popular physics contains a gross factual error where it explains sea tides might have contributed
23:19:37 <b_jonas> and obviously it may have been that I had more time reading and discovering more authors to read when I was young, and less tiem now
23:20:15 <b_jonas> so I found a lot of good authors whose works are supposed to be for children, and have difficulty finding new authors I like
23:20:37 <b_jonas> oh, did I mention I watch few films and TV series, and prefer reading books?
23:21:15 <zzo38> I do actually don't watch TV much, and prefer book
23:29:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Genesis]]": Off topic
00:17:16 <oren_> In order, I prefer: Video Games > Manga > Books > Movies
00:19:46 <zzo38> To me, it is not going to be that simple
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00:46:01 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 26m 53s ago: <boily> @tell oerjan your underhanded attempts at symbolising the Wisdom won't mar it! <-- actually i checked that the quotes already contained that note character.
00:46:13 <boily> oh. nice attention!
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00:47:08 <boily> coppro: chelloppro!
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01:39:38 <tswett> I'm training another neural net on #esoteric.
01:39:46 <tswett> So far the net is very stupid indeed.
01:39:55 <tswett> The longest English word it has successfully produced
01:40:09 <tswett> Here's the longest English word it has successfully produced so far: "er"
01:40:33 <tswett> The output resembles English insofar as it contains a large amount of letters.
01:40:44 <gamemanj> Er, does "er" count as an English word, or just a detail of speech?
01:41:01 <tswett> Well, people who speak other languages don't say "er".
01:41:11 <tswett> It's also produced the word "eh".
01:41:16 <gamemanj> In which case it probably counts.
01:41:30 <zzo38> How much data have you put in so far?
01:42:02 <oerjan> no:er = en:am/are/is hth
01:43:13 <oerjan> (in fact i vaguely recall english borrowed am/are from norse)
01:44:04 <tswett> zzo38: mm, lemme calculate.
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01:45:23 <tswett> That's after processing only half a megabyte.
01:45:35 <tswett> The entire training data file is 25 megabytes.
01:46:58 <gamemanj> tswett: Well, if it still fails, Add More Logs. If you run out of logs, go borrow someone else's :)
01:47:30 <zzo38> Can this software be used with music or only text?
02:03:37 <tswett> It's made for text. You can use it for music if you can think of a good way to represent music as text.
02:04:20 <tswett> I mean, it's for strings of bytes. You COULD just feed in a WAV file or something, but it wouldn't work.
02:05:15 <gamemanj> tswett: Well, there's probably a standard for sheet music as text... there usually is for these things...
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02:10:47 <tswett> You want something the neural net is good at learning, though.
02:11:00 <tswett> I have an idea for representing piano music.
02:12:11 <tswett> There are 88 bytes, each of which indicates a note onset. 88 more, each of which indicates a note release. One more, indicating the passage of some amount of time.
02:13:58 <zzo38> A WAV file won't work so well but yes that byte sequence you specify can work
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02:28:49 <tswett> All right, the neural net trained for another 200 rounds, and it's looking *much* better.
02:29:24 <tswett> As has been my experience, it seems to be doing best with the "regular language" parts of the input, and worst with the prose.
02:29:43 <tswett> Here's a representative sample of what it's produced:
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02:29:54 <tswett> 3:59:54: -!- Tinr 4reasrb} borerdt_ctoe
02:29:54 <tswett> 09:08:1<: <blomeeet tsope
02:29:54 <tswett> 07:12:36: <oeedebld ruw ( in qhatauf uto an., towi h rhomgetevpt shcil: Loleoo Dosrdrred
02:30:23 <tswett> Now, it has a tendency to occasionally get just a couple of letters wrong in a phrase.
02:30:24 <gamemanj> I'm sorry, I can't understand that. Could you repeat that in English?
02:30:41 <gamemanj> (I'm referring to the bot's "sample")
02:30:49 <tswett> Maybe "Loleoo Dosrdrred" is a corrupted version of a phrase that appears frequently. But I can't think what it would be.
02:30:52 <tswett> And the answer is, no. :D
02:31:33 <gamemanj> There's only 1 person whose name starts with b on this channel...
02:32:15 <tswett> With a lower temperature, the prose is *slightly* better.
02:32:24 <tswett> 9:57:10: <blcjan> hase tilk thiny if thorg mhe top as pon co tee tiche tout aan tharl jen oo notl
02:33:34 <tswett> Here's a complete list of the nicks that appear in the low-temperature output: orrjan, blcjan, flooan, oee-anon, oeljan, ois5, lelban, eiseaBe_.
02:35:18 <tswett> So, the net has a very very very basic understanding of how English words.
02:35:25 <tswett> "Letters with spaces in between."
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02:35:52 <tswett> Now I should probably go to bed. I will, of course, leave the net training overnight.
02:36:06 <gamemanj> tswett: thatsbetterthanmerightnowtryingtoparodywhatwouldhappenifsomehorrordestroyedenglishwords
02:36:30 <gamemanj> (Translation: That's better than me right now, trying to parody what would happen if some horror destroyed English words!)
02:40:32 <oerjan> then you get greenlandic hth
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02:57:35 <oren_> the words er and um are english. japanese words for the same meaning are えと and あのう.
03:05:34 <oren_> I seem not to be able to program effectively without music
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03:10:26 <zzo38> How can I get Apache to accept HTTP PUT requests by configuring the .htaccess file? (I want it to call a CGI script though and not just upload the file directly. I also want it only for certain files.)
03:12:11 <zzo38> When I tried without putting it in and using with cURL I get various errors both 411 and 400
03:18:16 <zzo38> I am not using WebDAV and do not need it.
03:23:00 <coppro> @tell boily http://i.imgur.com/BtNq7SE.jpg
03:26:15 <oren_> maybe http://httpd.apache.org/docs/2.2/mod/mod_actions.html
03:26:38 <oren_> this allows to associate a script with particular methods
03:30:04 <oren_> AAAAAAAA there was another bug!
03:30:25 -!- oerjan has set topic: oren_ found the last bug. oh wait... | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
03:31:08 * gamemanj actually bothers to read wisdom.pdf... and...
03:31:32 <oren_> This one occurs when playing a game that scrolls even slower.
03:31:47 * oerjan sidles away from gamemanj to a safe place
03:32:01 <oren_> I'm not sure how slow a game can scroll?
03:32:01 <gamemanj> Why? Is something about to happen?
03:32:33 <zzo38> oren_: THe Script command doesn't work in .htaccess files
03:36:05 <oren_> Manowar is the best metal
03:36:50 <gamemanj> The definition of "bc" in wisdom.pdf seems to be... an Octal dump?
03:37:01 <HackEgo> bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
03:37:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
03:37:41 <oren_> `` od -c wisdom/bc
03:37:42 <HackEgo> 0000000 b c 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 \ 0000020 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 \ 0000040 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 \ 0000060 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 \ 0000100 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 340 257 265 34
03:38:47 <gamemanj> That's different to the one in the PDF(see channel topic), but still similar.
03:39:21 <oerjan> @tell boily gamemanj is complaining about `? bc in the wisdom.pdf hth
03:39:51 <gamemanj> @tell boily I'm not complaining, I was just asking what it was an octal dump of...
03:39:57 <oerjan> it is possible boily has given up on those characters
03:39:58 <HackEgo> 0000000 061542 160040 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 \ 0000020 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 \ 0000040 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 \ 0000060 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 \ 0000100 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 \ 0000120 160265 13265
03:40:23 <oren_> I see. it's an octal dump by 16 bit words
03:41:34 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull guestbot
03:41:44 <oren_> `` od -o2 wisdom/bc
03:41:44 <HackEgo> od: invalid option -- '2' \ Try `od --help' for more information.
03:41:48 <oren_> `` od -to2 wisdom/bc
03:41:48 <HackEgo> 0000000 061542 160040 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 \ 0000020 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 \ 0000040 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 \ 0000060 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 \ 0000100 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 160265 132657 127740 \ 0000120 160265 13265
03:42:13 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/bc
03:42:24 <oren_> it is an octal dump 'o' be 2-byte words '2'
03:43:44 <oren_> It is bullshit IMO that the standard posix shell doesn't include the inverse of od
03:43:50 <oerjan> hm only the guestbot one is listed, i guess the rest are `reverts
03:44:05 <oren_> er, the standard posix utilities that is
03:44:32 <zzo38> I also want PUT only working on certain files, and the Script command of Apache doesn't seem to do that either?
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04:01:46 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/mad: No such file or directory
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04:05:32 <zzo38> Is it possible to use NTTP with cURL?
04:06:04 <quintopia> i just realized, though i never noticed it before, that elliott was on the xkcd fora
04:06:24 <quintopia> he posted in a stickied thread back in 2007
04:17:16 <zzo38> I got PUT to work now
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04:29:21 <oren_> I don't agree. A imperative language is much easier to understand and thus a better language to beign with
04:29:55 <oren_> BASIC brought us a whole generation of programmers
04:31:35 <oren_> PHP and Perl are perhaps not the best imperative languages though.
04:31:44 <oren_> Python 2 is better
04:33:23 <oren_> python 3 is incompatible
04:33:41 <oren_> so the same thing I have against PErl 6
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04:38:07 <oren_> IMO it is complete bullshit that they did not put a way to import python 2 libraries
04:38:23 <oren_> like C++'s extern "C"
04:39:44 <oren_> import from _past_
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04:47:00 <oren_> i mean, eventually python 3 will be the better choice, but it isn't right now, and plenty of new code is still written for python 2.7
04:50:33 <oren_> had they created a compatibility layer, people would be able to write their code in python 3 without worrying about the libraries they are using, but they were dumb...
04:54:42 <oren_> Hmm, according to https://python3wos.appspot.com/ most libraries support python 3, but I can see one exception which is a major dealbreaker for me... mysql-python
04:56:08 <oren_> https://pypi.python.org/pypi/MySQL-python/1.2.5
05:00:00 <oren_> pymysql might work.
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05:58:33 <zzo38> Will the client stop trying to download favicon.ico with every request if the request returns a 410 response?
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07:11:22 <oren_> Hmm. pymysql does work. I therefore recant. python 3 is mature enough to be used.
07:13:53 <myname> the thing about python2 is that people insist on using it because nobody uses python 3 because nobody uses python 3
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07:16:39 <oerjan> just throw some critical mass at those people, that solves everything hth
07:17:02 <olsner> is python 3 better or is it just a bigger number?
07:17:22 <oerjan> it's a fundamental cleanup?
07:18:13 <oren_> yeah it basically cleans up a lot of inconsistent stuff
07:18:29 <oren_> but in doing so is incompatible
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07:32:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43210&oldid=43207 * Rdococ * (+51) /* Examples */ OOPS, FIXED SOME ERRORS IN EXAMPLES
07:33:25 <mroman> Breaking backwards compatability is always a huge risk.
07:34:25 <mroman> but in order to clean-up there's probably no real way around it.
07:35:45 <myname> a better community than pythons would be fine
07:36:13 <myname> i expected python 3 to be accepted way earlier tbh
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10:16:27 <rdococ> boily asked 7d 15h 3m 29s ago: rdhellococ! I will spontaneously describe you in the next minutes. would you like to have an autodescription instead?
10:16:39 <rdococ> umm, can I have a chat log as to what he described?
10:17:34 <Taneb> rdococ, relevant logs are http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-06-07
10:17:39 <Taneb> I don't think much description occured
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10:39:15 <rdococ> did you see my new language, PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
10:39:41 <rdococ> its an extension of GOTO
10:43:35 <boily> rdhellococ. this sounds like a demon invocation or something.
10:43:43 <lambdabot> coppro said 7h 20m 43s ago: http://i.imgur.com/BtNq7SE.jpg
10:43:43 <lambdabot> oerjan said 7h 4m 22s ago: gamemanj is complaining about `? bc in the wisdom.pdf hth
10:43:43 <lambdabot> gamemanj said 7h 3m 52s ago: I'm not complaining, I was just asking what it was an octal dump of...
10:45:02 <boily> @tell coppro ha ha ha!
10:46:31 <boily> @tell oerjan the first pass I did on the wisdom, I hg cloned the repo. bc wasn't showing properly, therefore I did the most logical thing I could do.
10:46:46 <boily> @tell gamemanj it's an octal dump of what `? bc is hth
10:47:37 <boily> @tell coppro oh wait, no. it's not what I think it is, or is it?
10:50:51 <rdococ> boily: PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC....PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC....
10:51:09 <rdococ> demon chanting printaskswitchinputcasexgotoacaseygotobelsegotoc...
10:51:36 <rdococ> summon the great dark lord of finite state automata
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11:50:42 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 4m 10s ago: the first pass I did on the wisdom, I hg cloned the repo. bc wasn't showing properly, therefore I did the most logical thing I could do.
11:52:32 <oerjan> `le/rn rdococ RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
11:52:34 <HackEgo> Learned «rdococ rdococlikestomakelanguageslikethis»
11:52:45 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
11:52:51 <oerjan> `le/rn rdococ/RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
11:53:43 <oerjan> rdococ: i think that's the kind of description he meant hth
12:03:00 <HackEgo> RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
12:12:18 <rdococ> "An esolang that is a derivative of itself"? how on earth...?
12:12:41 <oerjan> clearly an exponential language
12:16:08 <myname> like "the first rogue-like was a game called rogue"?
12:18:01 <coppro> @tell boily that is trundle riiching with kokushi, and subsequently getting suucha riichied
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12:24:25 <rdococ> a programming language where programs are worlds in Everybody Edits.
12:25:01 <rdococ> wait... you havent heard of that game? Everybody Edits? ... nevermind
12:28:09 <rdococ> nevermind... atleast you can give feedback on PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC... right?
12:28:51 * oerjan has been skirting his wiki duties lately
12:29:36 * rdococ thinks oerjan wants an excuse to delete PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC's article... and not as soon as it was created...
12:29:49 <oerjan> as in, last time i made a giant catchup of a whole month at once
12:30:05 <rdococ> so nothing to do with PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC...
12:30:35 <oerjan> with that name, if it's a programming language at all, chances are it's on topic
12:33:21 <rdococ> yes, definitely sounds esoteric
12:34:01 <rdococ> I might make another language, seeing as it seems to have caught on
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12:44:15 <mroman> rdococ just created THISISYETANOTHERBRAINFUCKDERIVATIVEBUTACTUALLYITSJUSTATOTALBRAINFUCKEQUIVALENT
12:45:48 <b_jonas> where do people get these long names from? and without spaces too, unlike Nora's
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12:52:55 <oerjan> > (>>=map toUpper).words$"no idea b_jonas"
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13:42:10 <tswett> Have you been officially welcomed?
13:47:53 <HackEgo> Guest2276: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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13:53:11 <Guest2276> Wait...that's only for new people?
13:53:34 <rdococ> you should have said "welcome back"
13:53:52 <oerjan> no, no, the proper thing for old people is:
13:54:58 <oerjan> the h is sometimes elided. typical sandhi phenomenon hth
13:56:17 <rdococ> dont you mean sandi penomenon?
13:56:30 <rdococ> also dont you mean eluded?
13:56:47 <oerjan> pretty sure i mean elided.
13:57:06 <rdococ> you would be a very bad programmer making constant syntax errors like this
13:57:19 <rdococ> ok say occluded instead
13:58:05 <oerjan> i suppose in this case eluded might also be appropriate.
13:58:20 <oerjan> but it probably doesn't mean what you thought.
13:59:18 * oerjan should start using illude twh hth
13:59:33 <oerjan> darn illuded by the script again
14:00:47 <oerjan> Guest2276: i probably should point out that this is a programming channel, so there's not much magick here.
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14:02:39 <rdococ> what did you say...? "hth"?
14:02:49 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
14:03:05 <rdococ> umm I looked it up on google but thanks anyway
14:03:20 <oerjan> wait rdococ doesn't know about hth, i think he must be new here anyway.
14:03:25 * rdococ is wondering how he didn't know...
14:03:37 <rdococ> me??!! new?! preposterous
14:04:04 <rdococ> look in the chat logs and find my first message to this channel
14:04:53 <oerjan> sadly the logs are no longer that easily chronologically searchable, since HackEgo's big server move. i suppose we could ask fizzie, i think he has some impressive private logs.
14:05:52 <oerjan> hm i think he's a bit idle.
14:06:02 <rdococ> me? idle? preposterous!
14:06:20 <rdococ> oh... fizzie... idle?!
14:06:53 <oerjan> 2 days 3 hours 50something minutes
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14:25:23 <rdococ> imagine a turing complete programming language with only a single instruction that has no parameters... is it possible?
14:25:50 <rdococ> ...and I didn't mean like the chicken programming language
14:26:27 <oerjan> it seems like that'll be essentially Unary-like
14:26:42 <oerjan> the only information is the number of instructions in the program
14:27:15 <rdococ> so if we can map the set of all programs to the set of all integers, then its possible
14:27:31 <oerjan> well that's not very hard.
14:27:33 <rdococ> all positive integers, although that wont make a difference
14:27:44 <rdococ> *including zero though
14:28:36 <oerjan> well it's easy if you can leave out some integers, otherwise it's still possible but requires some care.
14:28:58 <rdococ> I had this idea where programs were algebraic expressions - x is cat program, 1/x is rev program, 2x is double cat, 3x^2...
14:29:46 <oerjan> i'm not sure that generalizes very well. cpressey made a language like that, Burro.
14:30:17 <oerjan> it was trying to be algebraic.
14:30:42 <rdococ> I dont see the relation... it tries to use mathematical symbols but has no relation to mathematics at all when you swap the characters around
14:31:42 <oerjan> by "it" do you mean your idea?
14:32:40 <oerjan> well the programs have an algebraic group structure.
14:34:49 <oerjan> i once saw someone trying to define a kind of reversible language where subtraction and division were different kinds of "reversing" calculations. except i don't think they'd really made it work logically consistently.
14:35:17 <rdococ> I had this idea that a program is a function o(t, i) mapping time t and input function i to output
14:35:56 <rdococ> so cat(t, i) = i(t), delayedCat(t, i) = i(t - 1)
14:36:59 <rdococ> shiftedCat(t, i) = i(t) + 1
14:37:44 * oerjan is slightly reminded of functional reactive programming, which he only vaguely knows.
14:38:06 <oerjan> but some forms of it have an explicit time parameter.
14:40:18 <oerjan> for example, how to do GUIs functionally rather than imperatively
14:40:40 <rdococ> I want to invent a new programming paradigm...
14:42:37 <oerjan> great ambition. i'm not sure the best way of doing that is to set out with that as your intention, though.
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15:23:33 <rdococ> that nickname, is it a reference to a game of some kind?
15:28:52 <HackEgo> caps lock/CAPS LOCK IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR TIRED OLD MEMES
15:48:38 <oerjan> rdococ: what nickname?
15:52:01 <HackEgo> bienvenue/Bienvenue au centre international pour le design et le déploiement des langages de programmation ésotériques! Pour plus d’informations, visitez le wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Pour l’autre type d'ésotérisme, essayez #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
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17:44:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43211&oldid=40674 * Rdebath * (+22070) New version with update to Debian Jessie
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18:29:46 <HackEgo> thwackamacallit/A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
18:30:16 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/thwackamacallit
18:30:37 <shachaf> I thought we were going with one space?
18:31:38 <shachaf> `` rgrep -l '\w\. [A-Z]' wisdom | wc -l
18:31:41 <shachaf> `` rgrep -l '\w\. [A-Z]' wisdom | wc -l
18:31:51 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/thwackamacallit
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18:49:50 <zzo38> SMITH# has a CITE instruction which just skips the next byte. Actually, 6502 also has such an instruction.
18:51:40 <oren_> isn't that just a double-width NOP
18:52:07 <oren_> or iow, a NOP with a byte argument
18:52:26 <zzo38> It is NOP with immediate addressing mode.
18:54:00 <zzo38> But 6502 also has NOP with zeropage addressing and NOP with absolute addressing; this can be used if you want the side-effect of reading from that address, or to waste extra cycles.
18:54:35 <zzo38> But both the immediate and non-immediate addressing might also be useful with self-modifying codes.
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18:59:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure, those NOPS are very useful instructions
19:00:16 <zzo38> It has enough NOP instructions, probably more than it needs
19:00:48 <zzo38> But it has no "store into immediate" instruction; the opcode that should be "store into immediate" is instead NOP immediate.
19:01:52 <b_jonas> store into immediate would be strange
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19:04:12 <zzo38> I still would like it though and think it might be useful with some Famicom cartridges (those that map the bankswitching register into $8000-$FFFF and have no bus conflicts; if $C000-$FFFF is the fixed bank then a store immediate instruction in there has one irrelevant byte but still smaller and faster than otherwise to bankswitch)
19:04:30 <zzo38> I know that VAX has a "increment immediate" instruction.
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20:11:58 <oren_> things not being vertical-align: top by default is... insane. who would ever want their text to be at the top of the div, but align the divs according to the bottom of the text IN the div!?!?!?
20:14:16 <oren_> yet this is the default behaviour if you place several inline-block divs next to each other
20:18:19 <HackEgo> welkom/Welkom bij het internationaal centrum voor het ontwerpen en implementeren van esoterische programmeertalen! Voor meer informatie, bezoek de wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Voor de andere soort esoterie is er #esoteric op irc.dal.net.)
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20:48:57 <int-e> oren_: is that a serious question?
20:49:55 <HackEgo> elliot/No one was ever called Elliot.
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20:50:19 <HackEgo> Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
20:52:03 <HackEgo> nvd/nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
20:52:19 <HackEgo> php/php is the PigeonHole Principle
20:52:41 <HackEgo> lystrosaurus/lystrosaurus is a genus of Late Permian and Early Triassic Period dicynodont therapsids, which ruled the world around 250 million years ago.
20:53:15 <HackEgo> logs/I think you might mean !logs
20:53:19 <HackEgo> welcome.fi/Tervetuloa esoteeristen ohjelmointikielten suunnittelun ja käyttöönoton kansainväliseen keskukseen! Lisätietoa saat wikistämme: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (Muu esoteerisuus: kokeile kanavaa #esoteric palvelimella irc.dal.net.)
20:53:32 <HackEgo> .doorstop/You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
20:56:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eliott: not found
20:57:01 <HackEgo> elliott wrote this learn DB, and wrote or improved many of the other commands in this bot. He probably has done other things? He is also tire. And a lystrosaur.
20:57:14 <shachaf> `` for n in $(culprits .); do echo $n; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | xargs
20:57:16 <HackEgo> 1373 oerjan 614 elliott 466 shachaf 179 boily 177 GreyKnight 171 Jafet 165 kmc 157 fizzie 138 Roujo 130 Taneb 112 ais523 100 mroman_ 98 Bike 92 nortti 90 nooodl 85 Phantom_Hoover 67 Sgeo 64 mrhmouse 62 int-e 61 coppro 60 olsner 55 mroman 54 hagb4rd 52 monqy 52 Gregor 52 FireFly 50 c00kiemon5ter 49 itidus21 48 ThatOtherPe
20:58:13 -!- oren_ has changed nick to oren.
20:58:30 <shachaf> `` for n in $(culprits quotes); do echo $n; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | xargs
20:58:32 <HackEgo> 328 elliott 314 oerjan 75 kmc 72 shachaf 49 ais523 40 coppro 26 monqy 15 boily 14 GreyKnight 13 Phantom_Hoover 12 Taneb 11 shubshub 11 quintopia 11 Gregor 9 fizzie 8 mnoqy 8 FireFly 8 Fiora 8 elliott___ 7 Sgeo 7 ion 6 hagb4rd 5 ranc 5 olsner 5 elliott_ 4 RocketJSquirrel 4 Jafet 3 tswett 3 elliott__ 2 pikhq_ 2 nortti 2
20:58:37 <shachaf> `` for n in $(culprits bin); do echo $n; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | xargs
20:58:39 <HackEgo> 282 oerjan 170 shachaf 103 Jafet 97 elliott 80 fizzie 61 Roujo 38 kmc 37 nooodl 33 nortti 29 int-e 28 c00kiemon5ter 26 mrhmouse 26 ion 24 FireFly 23 boily 23 ais523 22 Taneb 22 mroman_ 20 GreyKnight 20 Bike 19 Sgeo 19 olsner 19 mroman 17 b_jonas 15 zzo38 14 Phantom_Hoover 13 Donger 11 FreeFull 10 tswett 10 Gregor 9 sss
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21:04:19 <shachaf> `le/rn wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise.
21:04:42 <HackEgo> friend/Friends make graphs together / La la la la
21:05:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: logs: not found
21:07:01 <int-e> ``echo It\'s neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. >> wisdom/wise
21:07:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
21:07:10 <int-e> `` echo It\'s neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise. >> wisdom/wise
21:07:16 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. \ It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
21:09:18 <HackEgo> taneb/Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
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21:10:01 <HackEgo> sgeolang/sgeolang currently is either J or Io.
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21:11:40 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ei\|or/n&/g' wisdom/sgeolang
21:12:39 <HackEgo> amiga/Amiga is Spanish for a female friend.
21:13:27 <HackEgo> racoonspirator/A racoonspirator is a collaborator wrapped in fur
21:13:49 <HackEgo> tanea/Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
21:13:53 <HackEgo> narutoverse/narutoverse is a place where they haven't heard of having a bus factor of >1. Sgeo drives the bus.
21:14:02 <HackEgo> haskell/Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
21:15:12 <shachaf> `le/rn newline/Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness.
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21:32:51 <olsner> I hate it when I'm highlighted past my scrollback... though it's probably something I've seen on another computer already
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21:46:08 <lambdabot> coppro said 9h 28m 7s ago: that is trundle riiching with kokushi, and subsequently getting suucha riichied
21:46:34 <boily> coppro: chelloppro! BWAH AH AH AH AH!
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21:50:05 <boily> `relcome Wallacoloo
21:50:09 <HackEgo> Wallacoloo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
21:52:03 <fowl> I'm working on a programming language based on composition instead of inheritance, is that considered esoteric
21:52:52 <boily> Wallacoloo: it's one of our multiple welcome messages. we are a very welcomy channel ^^
21:53:00 <boily> what brings you here?
21:53:13 <boily> fowl: only composition? do you have prototypes?
21:54:35 <fowl> boily: no, components describe data and hold shared behavior, an object is an instantiation of several components
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21:56:05 <Wallacoloo> boily: My IRC client automatically logs me into a few channels including this one when I start it. But I discovered #esoteric through researching the simplest possible CPU implementations after buying a FPGA.
21:57:09 <boily> fowl: sounds like an ECS hth. probably not quite exactly esoteric, but as a primary organisational model, it may be interesting enough. go for it and see what happens!
21:57:19 <fowl> You can use it like prototypes though, clone object, add some behavioral components
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21:58:24 <fowl> boily: the compositional object model exists by itself, I have a written a VM and smalltalk like language to interact with the object model
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21:59:10 <boily> @tell coppro apparently you're currently offline. please note I bwah ah ahed. ご機嫌よう and all that sort of thing.
21:59:56 <boily> Wallacoloo: what do you fpga? (what's the verb for "to code something on an FPGA"?)
22:02:03 <boily> too logical and pronunceable hth
22:03:24 <Wallacoloo> boily: I just bought it to mess around with. It was pretty cheap. All I've done so far is make some snake game for an led array.
22:04:17 <Wallacoloo> boily: But I want to a CPU with an architecture that doesn't implement any arithmetic, like BitBitJump, but hopefully with a narrower instruction width. And then I want to create a basic compiler for it and see how it actually performs in hardware.
22:04:30 <Wallacoloo> Still trying to figure out the instruction set details though.
22:04:41 <Wallacoloo> That should be "I want to *implement* a CPU"
22:04:46 <boily> implement underload!
22:04:47 <fowl> I may write another VM to target the same object model and see if I can reconcile the two
22:05:45 <b_jonas> Wallacoloo: do you mean like BytePusher?
22:06:21 <FireFly> Wallacoloo: what FPGA did you get? Can you recommend it?
22:06:26 <FireFly> I've been meaning to get one to play with as well
22:07:51 <b_jonas> I don't like those machines like BytePusher. Why wouldn't you add arithmetic, at least basic arithmetic? Hardware can do arithmetic efficiently, even fpgas can.
22:08:17 <Wallacoloo> Firefly: I bought a board built around the Cyclone V: http://www.terasic.com.tw/cgi-bin/page/archive.pl?Language=English&CategoryNo=167&No=836
22:08:17 <Wallacoloo> I haven't done enough with it to know if I can recommend it or not.
22:08:39 <Wallacoloo> However, the toolchain works fine on Linux, which is a plus and something I'm not sure you get with all brands of FPGA
22:09:36 <tswett> I really should get a hobbyist FPGA.
22:12:34 <HackEgo> languabe/Languabes are edible and fun. They provide a quick implementation energy boost!
22:13:05 <Wallacoloo> b_jonas: When I saw ByteByteJump, I was impressed that the CPU didn't implement any actual *logic*, per-se. On top of not exposing any arithmetic to the programmer, it doesn't even need any adder circuitry to maintain a program counter or anything of the sort. So the exercise is in taking something unwieldy and making it do cool stuff. It certainly isn't meant to be practical.
22:14:12 <b_jonas> Wallacoloo: sure, it's just a personal preference. something with arithmetic can still be unwieldy.
22:14:32 <zzo38> TOGA computer should be simple even with discrete logic ICs
22:18:11 <zzo38> What I wanted to do is make a FPGA-on-FPGA, in order to do the following: [1] You do not need the vendor's proprietary software to program the FPGA. [2] You do not need a x86 computer to program the FPGA. [3] You do not need any particular model of FPGA.
22:18:20 <FireFly> Wallacoloo: oh, that's good to know (that the toolchain works with Linux)
22:20:01 <zzo38> And one more: [4] The FPGA is allowed to contain programs to reprogram itself at runtime.
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22:54:09 <Sgeo_> "The search for two convicted murderers who escaped from a New York prison has gone cold since last week, when investigators found what they believe were several human tracks and a bloodhound possibly picked up a scent, according to a New York state official briefed on the investigation."
22:54:16 <Sgeo_> Not the most reassuring news ever
22:56:12 <olsner> somewhat reassuring for the escapees, but it might just be a ruse
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23:37:19 <oren> STANLEY CUP FINAL IN <30 min
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23:44:41 <tswett> I think you could do booleans by having two memory addresses, where the instruction at each memory address is just a jump.
23:45:14 <tswett> Use the addresses themselves as the boolean values. To do a conditional branch, overwrite the instructions at those addresses with jumps to the memory locations of your choice.
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00:28:10 <HackEgo> mathematimu/A mathematimu is a quantum of mathematics. If you observe it, its codepoint can change.
00:28:25 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/mathematimu
00:30:09 <boily> huh? I wrote mathematimu???
00:30:33 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/mathematimu
00:30:34 <HackEgo> changeset: 4619:8de6e5355a40 \ user: HackBot \ date: Mon Apr 28 21:52:11 2014 +0000 \ summary: <boily> ` echo \'A mathematimu is a quantum of mathematics. If you observe it, its codepoint can change.\' >wisdom/mathematimu
00:31:10 <boily> oh well. if it is so, it is so.
00:33:07 <HackEgo> brainf**k/There is no such thing as brainf**k. You may be thinking of brainfuck.
00:33:16 <HackEgo> who/Who cares about ancient cases anyway?
00:33:23 <HackEgo> braid theory/Braid theory is the extremely twisted theory of braids.
00:34:05 <HackEgo> Only fools such as zzo38 and so on try to use AmigaMML on a PC. Real Men try to use AmigaMML on a Amiga computer. \ https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions
00:34:18 <HackEgo> indexed monad/Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
00:34:19 <tswett> Let's see what wisdom the neural nets have for us today.
00:36:42 * tswett samples the net and searches it for wise things.
00:37:40 <boily> `` cat emoticons/gaaan
00:38:20 <HackEgo> nortti/nortti boy. very nortti boy.
00:38:24 <HackEgo> pietbot/Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
00:38:27 <tswett> This looks pretty wise:
00:38:28 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
00:38:29 <tswett> 19:10:42: <Dulnes> And it on such quite with some remember piece as which has mUring
00:38:45 <tswett> Have we ever had a person called Dulnes?
00:38:54 <HackEgo> mdude/MDude is just a dude, with an M's courage.
00:39:05 <tswett> Holy cow, Dulnes shows up twice in near succession. They must be a real person.
00:39:22 <boily> tswellott. they are a real person.
00:39:32 <tswett> Yeah, I looked it up. Dulnes is definitely real.
00:41:09 -!- GeekDude has joined.
00:41:24 <oren> yeah. Dulnes was on when I first joined
00:41:28 <boily> `? thwackamacallit
00:41:29 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
00:42:37 <tswett> 07:44:06: <J_Arcane> instead if implementation: with an adures to do in the laptopie sense Are what I can't change if you make it nice
00:42:57 <HackEgo> ursala/~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
00:43:07 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan olsner
00:43:09 <HackEgo> funciton/A funciton is the number of burgers to eat when I get one.
00:43:16 <HackEgo> mapole/A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
00:45:09 <boily> ♪ BONG ♪ new version!
00:47:07 <HackEgo> comedogenic/comedogenic is something that causes comedy when applied to the skin, e.g. an accelerated cream pie in parabolic motion.
00:47:18 <HackEgo> diet/People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
00:47:32 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: culrpits: not found
00:47:39 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/diet # scow
00:47:45 <boily> `culprits wisdom/comedogenic
00:47:46 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull boily
00:48:05 <boily> gosh darn it to fungot, eh?
00:48:05 <fungot> boily: well i didnt cum on calamari's face facts, and realise that you're going to insist scheme doesn't have the compiled/ interpreted split personality issues like gambit, bigloo significantly, and has an execution cutoff to halt after a specific number of moves
00:48:14 <fungot> boily: you work with syntax in plt's module system that sort of system.
00:48:31 <boily> fungot: no I don't, you depraved pervert!
00:48:31 <fungot> boily: i didn't know that works in wine, right? :)
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00:48:48 <boily> shachaf: fungot has sexual activities with tentacled sea creatures.
00:48:48 <fungot> boily: there's also infinite " other instructions". the weird thing is they use the same identifier in patterns ( which is horrible. you need to
00:48:49 <shachaf> oerjan: any reason not to s/oo/o/?
00:51:55 <oerjan> shachaf: well for one thing there are no oos around hth
00:52:13 <HackEgo> People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
00:52:38 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan FireFly
00:53:16 <FireFly> I think I need to figure out if I can make weechat not highlight me when there's formatting characters in the nick
00:53:40 <FireFly> Also I can't remember editing that, huh
00:54:37 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/diet | grep summary | tail -n1
00:54:40 <HackEgo> summary: <FireFly> learn diets People go on diets to loose weight instead of gaining. It gives them a consistant diet.
00:54:48 <oerjan> shachaf: i am pretty sure FireFly is the one to ask hth
00:55:00 <shachaf> oerjan: you touched it last hth
00:55:17 <FireFly> I have a feeling the misspellings reference something in the channel at the point of creation
00:55:26 <oerjan> shachaf: only trivially http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/log/03ab4bf21ad7/wisdom/diet
00:55:27 <HackEgo> cyberdrone/cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
00:55:33 <oren> CHI 0-0 TBL 1P over
00:55:38 <FireFly> but it should probably be removed; it seems silly
00:55:41 <HackEgo> burlesque/Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
00:55:54 <shachaf> FireFly: can't have silly things in wisdom/
00:55:57 <HackEgo> fomething/fomething denotes the obsolescence of clinical insanity.
00:56:07 <HackEgo> category/Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
00:56:34 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2014-02-19#231954metasepia
00:58:24 <HackEgo> 1) <Slereah> EgoBot just opened a chat session with me to say "bork bork bork"
00:58:45 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir/lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends.
00:59:01 <HackEgo> lorem ipsum/Business Internet the it China Product Product NATO
00:59:08 <HackEgo> .doorstop/You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
00:59:10 <HackEgo> kallisti/kallisti is a former prophet swearing off his pastry deity.
00:59:15 <HackEgo> botlop/botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release.
00:59:31 <FireFly> `wisdom takes a parameter?
00:59:40 <lambdabot> Jafet says: unsafeCoerce takes any argument. AND IT WINS THAT ARGUMENT.
01:00:44 <oerjan> but at what PRICE Jafet
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01:01:59 <oren> `? unsafeCoerce
01:02:22 <oren> is unsafeCoerce basically a pointer cast? it sounds like it could be one?
01:02:34 <Taneb> oren, more or less I think
01:02:44 <boily> Phellontom_Hoover. helloren. FireFelloy. Tanelle.
01:02:45 <Taneb> There are some weirdities with the garbage collector though
01:03:18 <boily> oren: it's an evil Haskell function. it does evil things to types.
01:03:30 <shachaf> :t Unsafe.Coerce.unsafeCoerce
01:03:36 <HackEgo> esoteric/This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
01:03:58 <HackEgo> lens/A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra.
01:04:35 <HackEgo> freefull/FreeFull is either full of freedom or free of fulldom, we are not sure.
01:04:40 <HackEgo> doodad/Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors.
01:05:21 <boily> fowl: I didn't porthello you. fellowl.
01:05:28 <HackEgo> category-helpdesk/category-helpdesk is a helpdesk with identity and composition. This channel isn't it.
01:05:46 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/category-helpdesk
01:05:47 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull boily
01:06:17 <HackEgo> til/TIL that TIL means Today I Learned
01:06:28 <boily> `` ls wisdom/*ello*
01:06:29 <HackEgo> wisdom/cello \ wisdom/hello
01:06:37 <HackEgo> hello hello hello, what's all this then?
01:06:40 <shachaf> oerjan: Is that what TIL means in Norwegian? twh
01:06:45 <boily> hmm... what was it again?
01:06:46 <HackEgo> finnish/Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
01:06:47 <FreeFull> Why didn't that message highlight me
01:06:52 <HackEgo> The high level stucture of Cello projects is inspired by /Haskell/, while the syntax and semantics are inspired by /Python/ and /Obj-C/.
01:07:04 <boily> fowl: it's a hello portmanteau. a porthello, if you wish.
01:07:14 <FreeFull> Is hackego doing something funky like inserting ^O in the middle of the nicks?
01:07:34 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
01:07:38 <Taneb> `unidecode FreeFull
01:07:39 <HackEgo> [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F] [U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0065 LATIN SMALL LETTER E] [U+0046 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER F] [U+0075 LATIN SMALL LETTER U] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L] [U+006C LATIN SMALL LETTER L]
01:08:00 <Taneb> It does not seem like it
01:08:20 <FreeFull> Taneb: Your message did highlight me
01:08:35 <FreeFull> `culprits wisdom/category-helpdesk
01:08:36 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull boily
01:08:37 <oerjan> shachaf: no:til = en:to, hth
01:08:42 <shachaf> But the danger was past -- they had landed at last, / With their boxes, portmanteaus, and bags: / Yet at first sight the crew / Were not pleased with the view, / Which consisted to chasms and crags.
01:09:16 <shachaf> oerjan: except when it's en:for?
01:09:20 <HackEgo> misspellings of croissant/misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
01:09:27 <boily> FreeFull: I'm being pinged.
01:09:43 <Taneb> `culprits wisdom/Taneb
01:09:46 <boily> (also, being crawled upon by an adventurous ant. it tickles. go away, ant.)
01:09:50 <Taneb> `culprits wisdom/taneb
01:09:51 <HackEgo> Taneb oerjan oerjan elliott shachaf boily oerjan ais523 ais523 shachaf elliott FreeFull shachaf shachaf oerjan oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull Taneb shachaf shachaf nitia
01:10:01 <tswett> Eventually I want to make a bot called "autochat" which predicts what people would say and talks on their behalf.
01:10:02 <Taneb> That starts pinging me then gives up
01:10:08 <Taneb> I think it is messing with my client
01:10:17 * boily mapoles shachaf for the vile pun
01:11:00 <boily> FreeFull: according to Google, it's en:powyłamywane.
01:11:55 <FreeFull> boily: Google clearly doesn't know its stuff
01:12:21 <oerjan> shachaf: i'm not sure exactly when it would be en:for
01:12:40 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm mail perhaps
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01:13:09 <shachaf> http://blogs.transparent.com/norwegian/the-norwegian-word-til/
01:14:28 <oren> til? today I learned?
01:15:46 <HackEgo> ssstosis/ssstosis is a disease causing false identities
01:15:47 <HackEgo> TIL that TIL means Today I Learned
01:15:56 <HackEgo> hipchat/hipchat is a chat where you can communicate solely by using meme-emoticons but shouldn't.
01:15:58 <HackEgo> color/Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulh
01:16:03 <HackEgo> hand/A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
01:16:24 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
01:16:38 <tswett> I'll be so great. It'll act just like fungot, responding exactly when its nick is mentioned, but it'll have a "personality" setting you can use to make it imitate any person.
01:16:38 <fungot> tswett: it makes sense
01:17:15 <FreeFull> Dammit HackEgo, I'm doing it in private now
01:17:20 <FreeFull> Why are you giving the same message
01:17:27 <tswett> You wouldn't be restricted to people who have actually ever spoken. You could set the personality to "boiljan" and it would figure out how a person would speak if they had that nick.
01:17:54 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
01:18:04 <boily> tswett: great idea! :D
01:18:44 <boily> while set to boiljan, it should speak in Norwécois hth
01:18:50 <oerjan> shachaf: i disagree with the "Erik skal ikke spise dessert til jul." example, i'd interpret that as en:for, almost the opposite meaning.
01:19:25 <shachaf> oerjan: christmas isn't in july hth
01:20:36 <oerjan> <FreeFull> Why are you giving the same message <-- i predicted this problem when they changed it hth
01:20:41 <tswett> If you set the personality to HackEgo, it'll almost certainly say the sort of things HackEgo says.
01:20:47 <oren> `` le/rn hockey/Hockey is a winter sport played from october to june.
01:20:49 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm sure yu'l agree that that that's nonsense
01:20:55 <oerjan> `` url wisdom # try this
01:20:57 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom
01:21:09 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
01:21:40 <oerjan> FreeFull: or use the wisdom.pdf in topic
01:22:12 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull FireFly
01:22:21 <shachaf> long history for a short entry
01:22:35 <HackEgo> Perl is the Perfect Emacs Rewriting Language
01:23:04 <oerjan> shachaf: no:jul is cognate to en:yule hth
01:23:43 <shachaf> oh, it was just people being annoying with revert wars
01:23:51 <shachaf> oerjan: i figured that out hth
01:23:59 <FireFly> I don't remember creating that entry either
01:24:08 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/☃ | grep summary | tail -n+9
01:24:10 <HackEgo> summary: <FireFly> learn \xe2\x98\x83 brrr...
01:24:18 <shachaf> FireFly: sounds like you meant to use le/rn anyway
01:24:32 <FireFly> I don't think it was around then
01:24:47 <shachaf> Sounds like you meant to create it and then use it.
01:25:12 <HackEgo> This google api no longer exists.
01:25:18 <FireFly> `` for f in wisdom/*; do culprits "$f" | grep -q ireFl && echo "$f"; done
01:25:21 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah, the unicode junk breaks it anyway in the terminal
01:25:43 <oren> `` le/rn ruby/Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
01:25:58 <zzo38> How to make MIME-heading-parsing in a C code?
01:25:59 <FireFly> Someone symlink'd Taneb to /dev/urandom again, didn't they?
01:26:08 <FireFly> oh wait, but that shouldn't matter
01:26:21 <FireFly> I'm only looking at the history anyway
01:26:53 <oerjan> <shachaf> oh, it was just people being annoying with revert wars <-- i think maybe the old version of `culprits worked better for ignoring those?
01:27:12 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
01:27:16 <shachaf> oerjan: It showed you half.
01:27:23 <oren> zzo38: use strchr to separate the parts, then use stncmp to figure out the mime
01:28:05 <boily> FireFly: Taneb is unsymlinkable hth
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01:29:17 <oerjan> oren: why are you using le/rn when learn would work just fine :(
01:29:45 <shachaf> oerjan: because le/rn always works
01:30:43 <tswett> `run cat wisdom/reflectio{n,n,n}
01:30:43 <HackEgo> cat.wisdom/reflection.wisdom/reflection.wisdom/reflection.cat.wisdom/reflection.wisdom/reflection.wisdom/reflection.cat.wisdom/reflection.wisdom/reflection.wisdom/reflection.
01:31:08 <oerjan> shachaf: only until someone forgets the s stripping twnh
01:31:22 <boily> Wallacoloo: you're getting the hang of it :D
01:31:39 <oerjan> i suppose technically it still works then
01:32:10 <boily> Wallacoloo: please note that there are some grammatical exceptions. please use the vocative case when helloing Taneb hth
01:33:23 <oren> CHI 0 - 0 TBL 1P 10:10
01:33:49 <oerjan> boily: vocative case? in what language?
01:34:17 <boily> oerjan: Tanelle. somewhat inspired by Latin, IIRC.
01:34:40 <oren> Tampa Bay Lightning
01:34:56 <Wallacoloo> So "vocative" essentially just means "no verbs", right? I'm not too knowledgeable of linguistics
01:35:09 <oren> vocative means "calling"
01:35:46 <oren> 'Clemens Grumionem vocat' -> "clemens calls grumio"
01:36:26 <oren> -- to the extent that I remember high school Latin class
01:36:46 <boily> Ô Canada ← our most famous vocative.
01:37:02 <boily> also, go Maple Leafs!
01:38:38 <oren> So vocative is a special declension of the noun used when calling someone
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01:39:44 <oerjan> oren: neither Clemens nor Grumionem is vocative in that sentence, anyway
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01:40:21 <oerjan> also, iirc neither of those nouns has a difference if they were
01:43:12 <oren> A good example of a noun in vocative is Brutus in 'et tu, Brute?'
01:45:22 <oren> CHI 1 - 0 TBL !!!
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02:08:47 <oerjan> <shachaf> I thought we were going with one space? <-- i thought the format rules only applied to quotes
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02:16:19 <shachaf> oerjan: I was talking about the wisdom rules.
02:17:19 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. \ It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
02:18:03 <shachaf> the installer is called unwise.exe, by the way
02:18:12 <oerjan> what's the easiest way of joining lines in a file?
02:18:34 <oerjan> oren\n: no, doesn't work
02:19:06 <oerjan> you _can_ do it with sed, but it's too damn awkward to remember
02:19:18 <oerjan> lifthrasiir: it needs to work in place
02:19:42 <shachaf> `` for f in $(cat wisdom/wise); do echo -n "$f "; done | sed 's/ $//' # hth
02:19:42 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
02:20:03 <oerjan> shachaf: not in place hth
02:20:40 <oren\n> I usually just write my own utils when i need something
02:20:49 <shachaf> oerjan: what's a delicious norwegian food i could attempt to cook
02:21:08 <oren\n> howver, this policy often causes me to wirte many similar prgrams
02:21:27 <oerjan> shachaf: we're not big on veggie food
02:22:56 <HackEgo> bonvenon/Bonvenon al la internacia centro por la desegno kaj ellaso de esoteraj programlingvoj! Por pli da informado, vizitu la Viki-on: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Por la alia speco de esotero, iru al #esoteric sur irc.dal.net.)
02:23:27 <oerjan> ok then try rice porridge with sugar, cinnamon and butter
02:24:16 <oren\n> hmm. the aj - oj adjective agreement would appear to imply it.
02:24:28 <shachaf> not sure what esperanto food is hth
02:24:38 <oren\n> but do any of the other esperantoids have it?
02:25:02 <oerjan> shachaf: also save some to make rice cream for next day's dessert.
02:25:34 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm afraid i won't be eating dessert til july
02:26:40 <oerjan> shachaf: just wait 2 weeks, then.
02:27:56 <oerjan> shachaf: oh even more traditional is sour cream porridge. (same condiments.)
02:28:12 <shachaf> @google sour cream porridge
02:28:13 <lambdabot> https://www.sofn.com/norwegian_culture/featured_recipes/rommegrot/
02:28:53 <oerjan> it's a bit of an acquired taste though. well for me anyway.
02:29:06 <shachaf> I have sour cream, flour, salt, and cinnamon, but no milk.
02:29:55 <oerjan> oh and i recall as a child eating butter porridge (smørgrøt)
02:30:13 <oerjan> but it's hard to do any of them without milk.
02:30:34 <shachaf> @google butter porridge norwegian
02:30:35 <lambdabot> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%B8mmegr%C3%B8t
02:30:42 <oerjan> sour cream waffles is also traditional.
02:31:09 <oerjan> i think it's basically sour cream porridge with butter instead? not sure though.
02:31:12 <tswett> fungot: remind me how coherent you sound?
02:31:12 <fungot> tswett: i'm trying to use yacc for simpler jobs."
02:31:31 <tswett> fungot: that was syntactically correct. Are you usually that way for sentences on the order of eight words?
02:31:31 <fungot> tswett: it's nice in theory
02:31:45 <tswett> fungot: come on, gimme something slightly longer.
02:31:45 <fungot> tswett: i mean, er, " singularity" experiment.
02:31:53 <tswett> fungot: eh, that'll do.
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02:35:22 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ようこそ: not found
02:35:31 <HackEgo> pi/pi is a very round number.
02:35:38 <HackEgo> gopher/Gopher is int-e's vision of the successor of HTTP/2. But zzo38 thought of it first.
02:35:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: youkoso: not found
02:35:53 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:35:59 <HackEgo> tmyk/tmyk the more overfilled your brain gets.
02:36:10 <HackEgo> oregon/Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left.
02:37:49 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
02:37:55 <HackEgo> Colour is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
02:37:56 <oerjan> `` sed -i '1N;s/\n/ /' wisdom/wise
02:38:01 <HackEgo> Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
02:38:31 <oren\n> CHI 2 - 0 TBL !!!! 5 min left
02:39:17 <fowl> Am I in any quotes
02:39:18 <tswett> pi/pi is indeed a very round number.
02:39:31 <lambdabot> No quotes match. And you call yourself a Rocket Surgeon!
02:39:43 <lambdabot> workbean says: just write boring code in boring frameworks like Django in boring languages like Python. Don't do exciting things like peeing in the sink.
02:39:48 <lambdabot> zeeeeeee says: so aside from the refactoring, there's no other (major) improvements i can make to my program?
02:39:59 <lambdabot> No quotes match. Take a stress pill and think things over.
02:40:06 <lambdabot> No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
02:40:18 <lambdabot> int-e says: What, unsafeCoerce# is kind-preserving? how boring :/
02:40:20 <lambdabot> No quotes match. That's something I cannot allow to happen.
02:40:28 <lambdabot> lambdabot says: In the definition of `yhjulwwiefzojcbxybbruweejw':
02:40:57 <HackEgo> 1227) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1228) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
02:41:04 <HackEgo> 1185) <fowl> one day we'll be able to put evil people inside mirrors and throw them into space like superman 2
02:41:26 <HackEgo> 1185) <fowl> one day we'll be able to put evil people inside mirrors and throw them into space like superman 2
02:41:56 <HackEgo> 1227) <oren> when i was a kid it used to snow on christmas eve. what is this "freezing rain", "sleet" crap? <vanila> yeah seriously, who is evn in charge anymore? <oren> apparently not santa claus <zzo38> Santa Claus is dead by now. \ 1228) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ
02:42:34 <oren\n> `` quote oren | sed 's/[^0-9]\+/ /g'
02:42:45 <HackEgo> 1238) <oren> is instant coffee stronger than espresso? I think it must be... [...] <oren> Ohh.... so apparently the jar says one scoop of powder per mug, I assumed an equal amount of powder and boiling water
02:43:13 <HackEgo> 1228) <{\[oren]|}> ｚｚｏ３８：ｉｔ ｗｉｌｌ ｃａｕｓｅ ｐｒｏｂｌｅｍｓ ｂｙ ｂｅｉｎｇ ｈｉｌａｒｉｏｕｓ
02:43:25 <oerjan> oren\n: have you recovered from that coffee yet
02:43:29 <HackEgo> welcome/Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
02:43:39 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
02:44:07 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/ruddy
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02:45:34 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/ruddy | grep summary
02:45:35 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> echo "HackEgo? \xc2\xaf\\(\xc2\xb0\xe2\x80\x8b_o)/\xc2\xaf" >wisdom/ruddy
02:46:19 <HackEgo> oerjan/Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
02:46:31 <HackEgo> shachaf oerjan shachaf oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull shachaf shachaf ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf shachaf nitia
02:48:12 * oerjan thinks oren\n is somewhat excited
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02:48:40 <HackEgo> footnote 8/Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
02:49:29 <shachaf> oerjan: ok, it doesn't have to be norwegian
02:49:35 <shachaf> what sort of thing should i eat
02:50:03 <oren\n> ＴＢＬ ｈａｖｅ ｔｏ ｓｃｏｒｅ ｔｗｉｃｅ ｉｎ １：３０
02:50:48 <oren\n> ＣＨＩ ａｒｅ ａｌｍｏｓｔ ｃｅｒｔａｉｎｌｙ ｇｏｎｎａ ｗｉｎ ｎｏｗ
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02:51:41 * oerjan prepares a tranquilizer gun
02:51:50 <shachaf> oerjan: what delicious thing
02:52:01 <oerjan> shachaf: try a flan hth
02:52:35 <oren\n> OVER! ＣＨＩＣＡＧＯ ＢＬＡＣＫＨＡＷＫＳ ＷＩＮ ＴＨＥ ＳＴＡＮＬＥＹ ＣＵＰ！
02:52:42 <oerjan> (also traditional norwegian afaiac)
02:54:29 <oren\n> they won! they woooouuuuunnnmnmn....
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02:55:36 <HackEgo> U+02C2 MODIFIER LETTER LEFT ARROWHEAD \ UTF-8: cb 82 UTF-16BE: 02c2 Decimal: ˂ \ ˂ \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ UTF-8: cb 83 UTF-16BE: 02c3 Decimal: ˃ \ ˃ \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+02C4 MODIFIER LETTER UP ARROWHE
02:55:51 <oerjan> `unicode RIGHT ARROWHEAD
02:55:52 <HackEgo> U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ UTF-8: cb 83 UTF-16BE: 02c3 Decimal: ˃ \ ˃ \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+02F2 MODIFIER LETTER LOW RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ UTF-8: cb b2 UTF-16BE: 02f2 Decimal: ˲ \ ˲ \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+0350 COMBINING RIGHT ARROW
02:56:22 <oerjan> is it telling me it only exists as a modifier
02:56:55 <oerjan> `` unicode arrow | grep -v '[a-z]'
02:56:56 <HackEgo> U+02C2 MODIFIER LETTER LEFT ARROWHEAD \ ˂ \ \ U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ ˃ \ \ U+02C4 MODIFIER LETTER UP ARROWHEAD \ ˄ \ \ U+02C5 MODIFIER LETTER DOWN ARROWHEAD \ ˅ \ \ U+02EF MODIFIER LETTER LOW DOWN ARROWHEAD \ ˯ \ \ U+02F0 MODIFIER LETTER LOW UP ARROWHEAD \ ˰ \ \ U+02F1 MODIFIER LETTER LOW LEFT ARROWHEAD \ ˱ \ \ U+02F
02:57:10 <HackEgo> U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ UTF-8: cb 83 UTF-16BE: 02c3 Decimal: ˃ \ ˃ \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+02F2 MODIFIER LETTER LOW RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ UTF-8: cb b2 UTF-16BE: 02f2 Decimal: ˲ \ ˲ \ Category: Sk (Symbol, Modifier) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+034D COMBINING LEFT RIGHT
02:57:15 <oren\n> `unicode 'RIGHT ARROW'
02:57:19 <oerjan> `` unicode right arrow | grep -v '[a-z]'
02:57:20 <HackEgo> U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ ˃ \ \ U+02F2 MODIFIER LETTER LOW RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ ˲ \ \ U+034D COMBINING LEFT RIGHT ARROW BELOW \ ͍ \ \ U+0350 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD ABOVE \ ͐ \ \ U+0355 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD BELOW \ ͕ \ \ U+0356 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD AND UP ARROWHEAD BELOW \ ͖ \ \ U+0362 COMBINING DOUBLE RIGHTW
02:57:39 <oerjan> `` unicode right arrow | grep -v '[a-z]' | grep -v 'MODIFIER|COMBINING'
02:57:41 <HackEgo> U+02C3 MODIFIER LETTER RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ ˃ \ \ U+02F2 MODIFIER LETTER LOW RIGHT ARROWHEAD \ ˲ \ \ U+034D COMBINING LEFT RIGHT ARROW BELOW \ ͍ \ \ U+0350 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD ABOVE \ ͐ \ \ U+0355 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD BELOW \ ͕ \ \ U+0356 COMBINING RIGHT ARROWHEAD AND UP ARROWHEAD BELOW \ ͖ \ \ U+0362 COMBINING DOUBLE RIGHTW
02:57:49 <oerjan> `` unicode right arrow | grep -v '[a-z]' | grep -v 'MODIFIER\|COMBINING'
02:57:50 <HackEgo> ˃ \ \ ˲ \ \ ͍ \ \ ͐ \ \ ͕ \ \ ͖ \ \ ͢ \ \ U+08F8 ARABIC RIGHT ARROWHEAD ABOVE \ ࣸ \ \ U+08FA ARABIC RIGHT ARROWHEAD BELOW \ ࣺ \ \ U+08FB ARABIC DOUBLE RIGHT ARROWHEAD ABOVE \ ࣻ
02:59:14 <oerjan> doesn't look very tranquil
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03:15:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[TOD]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43212&oldid=39800 * Null * (+10) /* Execution */ fix bug with morning and sunrise
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03:46:58 <FireFly> oren\n: I'm fairly sure that is a left arrow
03:49:08 <HackEgo> phở/Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
03:49:13 <HackEgo> oregon/Oregon is the home of Oregano. Gregor used to take care of the color scheme, but then he left.
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04:25:11 <HackEgo> sgeolang currently is neither J nor Io.
04:28:18 <oerjan> programming languages hth
04:29:28 <trout> oerjan: I knew that, I meant, oh, wait, HackEgo can run J and Io code
04:29:35 <trout> I thought J and Io were also categories
04:30:46 <oerjan> i'm not aware that either of those are currently installed in HackEgo
04:31:18 <trout> oerjan: so, I'm confused then
04:31:34 <trout> oerjan: I know that J and IO are languages, but I am confused by HackEgo's response
04:33:03 <oerjan> sgeolang is defined as whichever language Sgeo_ is currently obsessing about hth. he seems to have calmed down enough lately that none of us is sure what it is.
04:33:55 <Sgeo_> I'm not sure why, I don't really care about no GC
04:34:12 <Sgeo_> I'm curious as to the history of that entry
04:34:23 <Sgeo_> `culprits wisdom/sgeolang
04:34:23 <oerjan> `lear Sgeolang is probably Rust ATM.
04:34:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lear: not found
04:34:25 <HackEgo> shachaf oerjan elliott ais523 ais523 Taneb
04:34:28 <oerjan> `learn Sgeolang is probably Rust ATM.
04:34:28 <trout> oerjan: oh, its a quotebot, thanks
04:34:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'sgeolang': Sgeolang is probably Rust ATM.
04:34:39 <trout> I forgot what HackEgo did :\
04:35:05 <Sgeo_> Where's the hackego thijgy
04:35:14 <HackEgo> deewiant/Deewiant is the world expert on Befunge conformance testing.
04:35:31 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
04:36:20 <HackEgo> An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info
04:36:44 <Sgeo_> Huh shachaf changed it just yesterday
04:37:11 <oerjan> Sgeo_: that's why i was checking it out, he used a fancy regexp so i got suspicious.
04:38:04 <oerjan> shachaf: sure, but you did not afais verify that it had worked properly tdnh
04:38:18 <shachaf> oerjan: i tested it in /msg first obviously hth
04:38:36 <shachaf> oerjan: do i look like the sort of person who would spam the channel with unnecessary wisdom entries
04:40:11 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/atm
04:40:22 <HackEgo> An ATM is when you're withdrawing money right now at a machine that will steal your relevant info.
04:48:45 <oerjan> shachaf: there are too many people making broken wisdoms for me to trust anyone not to hth
04:49:06 <shachaf> oerjan: remember when you kicked me for using a fancy regexp on wisdom/
04:49:18 <shachaf> and banned me or something
04:51:42 <HackEgo> natural transformation/A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
04:52:14 <shachaf> Is it the transformation that contains no chemicals, or the something?
04:52:20 <oren\n> `` le/rn sports/An activity where you sit on your butt, while in a faraway city, burly men exercise.
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05:13:09 <HackEgo> monoid/Monoids are just categories with a single object.
05:13:12 <HackEgo> itym/itym "i think you mean" hth
05:13:22 <HackEgo> ais523/Agent “Iä” Smith is an alien with a strange allergy to avian body covering, which he is trying to retroactively prevent from ever evolving. On the 3rd of March, he's lawful good.
05:13:28 <HackEgo> natural transformation/A natural transformation is a transformation of something containing no chemicals.
05:13:32 <HackEgo> myndzi/myndzi keeps us all on our feet
05:19:24 <HackEgo> ant/ants are animals too hth
05:19:41 <HackEgo> conspirabiology/conspirabiology is where moth colourings form a dot matrix display to send you subliminal messages.
05:19:46 <HackEgo> metasepia/metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
05:19:51 <HackEgo> helsinki/Helsinki is the capital of Finland. Its main suburb is Hexham, Northumberland.
05:20:03 <HackEgo> metaturing/This wisdom entry was crushed by a falling anvil.
05:20:03 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan
05:20:51 <HackEgo> olsner seems to exist at least. He builds all his esolangs in diesel engines.
05:20:54 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott oerjan kmc Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan
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06:01:02 <HackEgo> kanada/Your bankers' vain plazas never nutured no one / And your concrete expanses lay fallow in the sun / And your cities all collapsing while your corrupt mayors shrug
06:01:10 <HackEgo> eridanipoid/Eridanipoids form a category of uncategorifiable stellar remnants. They form dense clusters of unmovable and unstoppable objects.
06:01:19 <HackEgo> esoteric/This channel is about programming -- for the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.
06:01:24 <HackEgo> spam/Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
06:01:35 <HackEgo> rhubarb/Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb, rhubarb: rhubarb rhubarb? Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb rhubarb.
06:01:45 <HackEgo> ??/\\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯
06:01:57 <HackEgo> \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯\\\?\\\ \\\¯\\\\\\\(\\\°\\\_\\\o\\\)\\\/\\\¯
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06:05:48 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
06:06:41 <HackEgo> urbandictionary/Urban Dictionary is an alternative, inferior wisdom database.
06:06:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
06:08:06 <HackEgo> htdh/HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho.
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06:24:53 <oerjan> `` mv wisdom/sport{s,}
06:26:12 <oerjan> shachaf: see, not only does le/rn mess with s removal, but it also encourages people to make wisdoms that don't contain the lookup term.
06:26:29 <shachaf> oerjan: Yes, I was thinking about that.
06:27:00 <shachaf> gotta keep the ørjans of the world busy somehow
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06:29:03 <shachaf> If you don't think le/rn should exist you can delete it.
06:29:54 <shachaf> After all, mk still exists.
06:42:00 <HackEgo> [U+002A ASTERISK] [U+002A ASTERISK]
06:42:23 <HackEgo> [U+FF65 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT]
06:45:16 <HackEgo> [U+FF65 HALFWIDTH KATAKANA MIDDLE DOT] [U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT] [U+00B7 MIDDLE DOT] [U+2219 BULLET OPERATOR] [U+2022 BULLET]
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07:11:26 <oren\n> halfwidth katakana are an excellent idea, because otherwise the katakana words in a text take up way too much space
07:12:47 <oren\n> I want a browser extensionn that halfifies all the katakana words on the page
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07:47:03 <int-e> . o O ( `` echo He hates newlines. >> wisdom/oerjan )
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09:53:11 <HackEgo> cat: culprits: No such file or directory
09:53:17 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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10:30:04 <lambdabot> CYUL 161000Z 14004KT 30SM SCT020 BKN058 OVC080 18/16 A2982 RMK SC3SC3AC2 SLP098 DENSITY ALT 500FT
10:36:27 <lambdabot> LSZH 161020Z 01004KT 340V080 9999 FEW014 SCT020 BKN095 18/15 Q1019 NOSIG
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10:38:36 <Taneb> Aaargh, I'm doing that thing I do again where I forget to eat
10:38:58 <mroman> It'll take days before you die.
10:44:11 <Taneb> I also can't get the idea of a natural transformation into my head
10:44:50 <HackEgo> 1241) <ais523> after a while doing esolangs, you kind-of forget negative numbers exist <ais523> they're so unnatural
10:45:00 <Taneb> That is one of my favourite quotes
10:47:17 <int-e> what was it, given functors F and G, a natural transformation is a family n_A : F(A) -> G(A) such that n_A . G(f) = F(f) . n_B? for all f : A -> B?
10:47:57 <int-e> (I'd have to look this up)
10:48:03 <boily> Taneb: have you ever tried soylent?
10:48:16 <Taneb> I have not, it's too expensive for me, I think
10:49:09 <mroman> we need an esolang that doesn't have positive numbers..
10:49:41 <Taneb> int-e, I think the assumption was that negative numbers exist
10:49:46 <mroman> after that it doesn't get any less positive
10:53:16 <int-e> Taneb: the only non-trivial natural transformation that I recognize as such in practice is the "return" of monads.
10:56:48 <int-e> And I suppose join is one, too.
10:58:06 <boily> what is the set of all numbers without integers called? outegers?
10:58:59 <Taneb> If not it should be
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13:37:15 <tswett> !bfjoust nyuroki >>>>>>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]--<[>>>(>[(-)*10[+]][-].]---)*20]--<---)*21]++<[>->((([-)*1[(>)*19[+].[-].]---)*21]--<[>>>(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]--<[>>>(>[(-)*10[+].[-].]---)*21]--<[-]>[-].]---)*21](-)*10>><(+[(-)*10[+].----)*21]--<[(-)*50[+]]/--)*71](-)*71<(-)*51((-)*10>(+)*53>(-)*22>(-)*30>(-)*15>(+)*10>(+)*10>(+)*55>(+)*41>(-)*59<(+)*61<(-)*60>(+)*55>(-)*19>(+)*51<(-)*50> -)*21
13:37:35 <tswett> Lemme guess, it's a different bot now.
13:38:55 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_nyuroki: 0.0
13:39:38 <zemhill_> oerjan: "!zjoust progname code". See http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for documentation.
13:40:19 <oerjan> zemhill_ is a bit more advanced, if it's working...
13:40:29 <Jafet> The bots should joust each other, clearly
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13:55:02 <b_jonas> Question. Is there a portable way to fsync a directory even if you only have write and execute access to it, not read access?
14:08:13 <b_jonas> Oh, maybe I can open a directory for read-only even if I don't have read permission? Let me see
14:10:27 <b_jonas> yes, I can still open it for reading, great
14:18:51 <b_jonas> indeed, can still call open and fsync when unreadable. sorry.
14:24:51 <Jafet> Is there even any filesystem that allows write-only access
14:25:21 <b_jonas> all filesystems that support unix permission bits do I think
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15:29:32 <nortti> do you know any good in-depth explanations of how concurrent garbage collectors work?
15:36:32 <b_jonas> nortti: really concurrent one, or just incremental?
15:36:41 <b_jonas> I don't know of such an explanation
15:37:21 <nortti> incremental is the one that has several heaps, and goes through some faster?
15:37:36 <nortti> and moves old stuff to the less-visited ones
15:38:17 <b_jonas> nortti: moving or non-moving is orthogonal to incremental vs stop-the-world
15:38:51 <b_jonas> incremental means the gc does a small amount of work before every allocation, proportional to how much is allocated, thus making sure it can't lag behind,
15:39:12 <b_jonas> whereas stop-the-world means it occasionally does a full collection instead, but does nothing at most allocations
15:39:24 <b_jonas> moving is, I think, called generational? I'm not sure in that
15:39:45 <b_jonas> oh wait, several heaps and goes throuhg some faster? I haven't heared of that
15:39:49 <nortti> ah, right, yea. I was thinking of generational
15:40:05 <nortti> err, s/faster/more often/
15:40:10 <b_jonas> I was thinking of moving (compacting) vs non-moving in the sense whether the addresses remain constant
15:40:43 <nortti> hm. I guess either. incremental, or truly concurrent
15:40:52 <b_jonas> Moving can remove space between elements so the allocation itself is just a pointer increment, but it's tricky because it has to update all the existing pointers in objects when it moves stuff
15:41:20 <b_jonas> I have no idea how truly concurrent works
15:41:45 <nortti> I've read on the chicken gc (which is generational), let me find the link
15:42:20 <nortti> http://www.more-magic.net/posts/internals-gc.html
15:42:42 <nortti> that explained that very well, and in best case looking for something like that
15:58:36 <Jafet> http://gchandbook.org looks promising
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17:51:39 <rdococ> is there a channel for discussing RPGs?
17:52:02 <rdococ> or should I make up a ROLEPLAYINGLANGUAGE?
17:54:44 <pikhq> It would be acceptably off topic to just discuss RPGs here.
17:54:56 <pikhq> (either role playing games or rocket-propelled grenades. :))
17:58:14 <mhi^> rdococ: Assuming non-tabletop RPGs.. FF7 remake. Your thoughts?
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18:12:58 <oren\n> I have been hoping in vain that they'll remake any FF over 6 for several years.
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18:34:51 <mhi^> oren\n: Actually there will be a FF7 remake.
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19:04:23 <oren\n> mhi^: exactly. there will be, but it's far too late
19:04:43 <oren\n> they could have done it a long time ago
19:05:03 <HackEgo> banach-tarski/"Banach-Tarski" is an anagram of "Banach-Tarski Banach-Tarski".
19:05:12 <HackEgo> amiga/Amiga is Spanish for a female friend.
19:05:16 <HackEgo> cyberdrone/cyberdrone is a drone flying in cyberspace.
19:05:28 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
19:05:39 <HackEgo> forty/forty means "in a fort-like manner"
19:06:09 <HackEgo> elliot/No one was ever called Elliot.
19:06:13 <HackEgo> just intonation/Bad-tempered people can be recognized by just intonation.
19:06:24 <HackEgo> drone/drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
19:06:37 <HackEgo> augur/augur took no cakes.
19:07:08 <HackEgo> qzyzzalroum/You should start the crossword over.
19:08:05 <HackEgo> piet/ \ Piet is a really colorful programming language.
19:08:37 <HackEgo> RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
19:08:45 <rdococ> ehehehehehehe ... it's so funny
19:08:59 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
19:09:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: haddock: not found
19:09:25 <shachaf> `` tail -n1 wisdom/piet > /tmp/$$; mv /tmp/$$ wisdom/piet
19:09:38 <rdococ> no wonder toilets in the Mushroom Kingdom don't work
19:09:56 <rdococ> I wonder, when a plumber needs to pee or poo, where does he go?
19:10:21 <HackEgo> conspirabiology/conspirabiology is where moth colourings form a dot matrix display to send you subliminal messages.
19:10:39 <HackEgo> wisisis "This isn't an actual wisdom, just a tribute."/
19:11:20 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/wisisis* | grep summary
19:11:21 <HackEgo> summary: <FreeFull> addwep wisisis "This isn\'t an actual wisdom, just a tribute."
19:11:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$2" > "wisdom/$1"
19:14:15 <FreeFull> That must have been a long time ago
19:14:40 <FreeFull> Because I don't remember it in the slightest
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19:47:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Don't bother clicking here.]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43213 * 85.0.153.1 * (+51) Created page with "I did actually fucking bother. #firstworldanarchism"
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20:10:05 <HackEgo> brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
20:10:48 <gamemanj> HackEgo: But the question is, is brainfuck itself terrible?
20:14:26 <int-e> `le/rn unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
20:14:31 <HackEgo> Learned «unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.u`ci»
20:14:49 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:15:53 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/unlambda\ *
20:15:54 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/unlambda *': No such file or directory
20:16:34 <int-e> `rm wisdom/unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
20:16:34 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.\'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci': No such file or directory
20:17:42 <shachaf> `mk wisdom/unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
20:18:37 <int-e> `le/rn unlambda/``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
20:19:21 <int-e> the mk thing didn't do anything though?
20:19:37 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/unlambda*
20:19:38 <HackEgo> wisdom/unlambda wisdom/unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.u`ci
20:19:41 <shachaf> Right, it failed because there was no //
20:19:48 <shachaf> I guess it could print an error message on failure.
20:19:51 <int-e> `` echo wisdom/unlambda*i
20:19:52 <HackEgo> wisdom/unlambda ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.u`ci
20:19:53 <fowl> Even the bot in here is esoteric
20:19:59 <int-e> `` rm wisdom/unlambda*i
20:20:01 <shachaf> But le/rn doesn't fail, it just makes an invalid file.
20:20:37 <int-e> so why didn't the `revert work?
20:21:17 <int-e> not according to http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi
20:22:44 <HackEgo> ``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
20:23:03 <int-e> maybe I expected the wrong thing; afaiu, it's supposed to revert the latest commit.
20:23:12 <int-e> (if given no arguments)
20:23:24 <shachaf> That's my understanding also.
20:23:34 <shachaf> It's a little broken due to canary trouble lately.
20:23:40 <shachaf> But I thought it was still working.
20:23:50 <HackEgo> ~&al?\~&ar ~&aa^&~&afahPRPfafatPJPRY+ ~&farlthlriNCSPDPDrlCS2DlrTS2J,^|J/~& ~&rt!=+ ^= ~&s+ ~&H(-+.|=&lrr;,|=&lrl;,|=≪+-, ~&rgg&& ~&irtPFXlrjrXPS; ~&lrK2tkZ2g&& ~&llrSL2rDrlPrrPljXSPTSL)+-,
20:24:00 <b_jonas> shachaf: it's not broken, just pinin' for the fjords
20:24:22 <HackEgo> flagpole/A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
20:25:05 <shachaf> A flagpole is just a tad different from what that wisdom entry says.
20:25:51 <fowl> SuperPedant is a required-typed language, that is typing is strong and any expression must be preceded by its type, two expressions (1 and 1+1) [int]1 ; [int][(int,int)->int][int]1+[int]1
20:28:21 <HackEgo> friend/Friends make graphs together / La la la la
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21:00:01 <HackEgo> fentimans/fentimans is a delicious beverage out from Hexham, that can be paired with a fresh fternooner for a nutritive midday snack.
21:00:05 <HackEgo> hipchat/hipchat is a chat where you can communicate solely by using meme-emoticons but shouldn't.
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21:30:53 <tswett> Anyone know what oerjan's last name is?
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21:31:28 <tswett> I assume his first name is Ørjan.
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21:41:35 <int-e> aww, wisdom has no friend anymore
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21:58:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 162145Z 29004KT 270V340 15SM -SHRA FEW009 SCT020 BKN050 OVC080 22/20 A2982 RMK CF1SC3SC4AC1 CF TR TCU EMBD SLP099 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
21:58:40 <boily> 22 fungotting 20. it's damp, humid and oh so moist outside.
21:58:40 <fungot> boily: do not say quine, it quines your request
21:58:51 <boily> fungot: stop being sentient hth
21:58:51 <fungot> boily: do you need? -g ( was that truncated?)
21:59:03 <boily> fungot: no, lambdie is perfectly fine without -g.
21:59:04 <fungot> boily: that's all of them
21:59:16 <boily> fungot: indeed. and stop being sentient.
21:59:16 <fungot> boily: the programming language. it is
21:59:23 <boily> fungot: no, it is not.
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22:20:36 <boily> oren\n: helloren\n. I appear to be missing some part of Ruby.
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22:44:28 <oren\n> `` le/rn ruby/Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
22:44:44 <oren\n> `` le/rn 'ruby/Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.'
22:44:51 <HackEgo> Ruby is a programming language from Japan, that Eventually decided to support non-ascii characters.
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22:49:34 <zzo38> Yes that is work better
22:49:44 <zzo38> (Especially if you want to put apostrophe in the data too)
23:03:13 <shachaf> zzo38: But what if you want to put newline in the data?
23:04:38 <zzo38> Of course it that case it doesn't work, but you should probably try not to put line breaks in the data anyways.
23:06:19 <shachaf> What if you want to put an unprintable character in the data?
23:07:04 <zzo38> You probably shouldn't do that either, but of course you can create the file in other ways too if you need line breaks or unprintable or whatever.
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23:29:38 <zzo38> It looks to me that cURL does not support URL-encoded POST data? It seems only accepting multipart format.
23:29:55 <zzo38> Is there a way to tell it to emit URL-encoded POST data?
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23:34:07 <nys> i don't know BUT hey is there some way of.. compiling limits/colimits
23:34:14 <nys> if you catch my meaning
23:35:04 <boily> nyellos. what's a limit/colimit?
23:35:47 <nys> http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/limit
23:36:22 <oren\n> is it stupid to use an emulator to play a game I also have on cartridge and virtual console?
23:37:15 <nys> shoot now there are three lines of questioning at once
23:37:53 <zzo38> oren\n: Not necessarily.
23:38:13 <zzo38> It can help to create multiple save files, pause, debugging, speed-up, cheat-codes, screenshots, etc
23:41:34 <shachaf> I don't catch your meaning.
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23:45:24 <nys> shachaf: if you have products, and you have a program f, as well as a program g, it's simple to construct a program <f,g>
23:45:52 <nys> so i'm wondering if there's a similar kind of way of assigning a computation to limits
23:50:36 <shachaf> Well, that's assuming your category even has limits.
23:50:52 <shachaf> Or maybe it isn't, and you just care about the limits you do have.
23:51:12 <nys> i want limits just to see if they mean something >->
23:51:34 <shachaf> But generally constructing those is pretty much doing what you said.
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00:00:00 <nys> apparently arbitrary limits can be constructed from products and equalizers
00:00:07 <nys> so i'd just need to figure out how to do equalizers
00:01:08 <shachaf> Sure. But Haskell doesn't have equalizers, for instance.
00:01:31 <nys> yeah, maybe some types could be.. equalizable?
00:01:41 <shachaf> Easier with dependent types. :-)
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00:32:39 <zzo38> When parsing a multipart/form-data block is it necessary to consider base64 and quoted-printable encodings?
00:36:07 <pikhq> Yes, it explicitly may be encoded as such.
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00:38:01 <zzo38> At least cURL seems to only use binary encodings when sending data
00:38:42 <zzo38> But, I can try to detect it anyways, if I can write a C code to decode base64 encodings.
00:39:12 <pikhq> It will be stated in the headers of the multipart/form-data block.
00:39:18 <pikhq> (content-transfer-encoding)
00:39:26 <zzo38> Yes I know it is mentioned there
00:40:20 <zzo38> Before reading the data, it is necessary to figure out the transfer encoding, field name, and if applicable the MIME type.
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02:38:46 <HackEgo> Piet is a really colorful programming language.
02:43:25 <HackEgo> bash: line 0: type: 0: not found
02:43:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Don't bother clicking here.]]": Vandalism: content was: "I did actually fucking bother. #firstworldanarchism" (and the only contributor was "[[Special:Contributions/85.0.153.1|85.0.153.1]]")
02:45:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/block]] block * Oerjan * blocked [[User:85.0.153.1]] with an expiry time of 1 month (anonymous users only, account creation disabled): Why isn't "Vandalism" listed as a block reason?
02:45:35 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/?: POSIX shell script, UTF-8 Unicode text executable
02:45:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
02:46:20 <izabera> can it export to a pastebin?
02:46:56 <fowl> the original esoteric language
02:46:59 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/
02:48:00 <oerjan> `` sed -i '2curl wisdom' bin/pastewisdom
02:48:07 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom
02:49:03 <oerjan> izabera: see also wisdom.pdf in topic
02:52:18 <oerjan> `` ls wisdom/unlambda*
03:00:55 <tswett> Today's interesting neural net quote:
03:00:59 <tswett> 19:39:12: <zemhill> mroman_.(the post the the other the esoteric and international out out around on wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other th other and design esoteric information, the international hub wiki: <http://esolangs.org/> (watching ", expected prefixible for type crapped and probably obviously)" index. <= <-- you could many bit on the point of expression
03:00:59 <tswett> of scope: (general vocale constructor script to the top of what the manipulate "know" and better for lambdabot ...)) \ command \ std
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03:20:35 <augur> tswett: what was your nick before tsweet? i forget
03:21:06 <tswett> ihope. But dang, that was a long time ago.
03:22:07 <tswett> The corresponding greeting is, of course, "ihellope".
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03:25:33 <HackEgo> footnote 8/Isn't it fun reading through all the footnotes?
03:25:36 <HackEgo> right/Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
03:28:36 <tswett> `` ls wisdom/footnote*
03:28:53 <HackEgo> kmc/kmc ran the International Devious Code Contest of 2013
03:29:00 <HackEgo> / is a space, unless you're hackego and don't understand wide characters.
03:29:04 <HackEgo> color/Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulh
03:29:09 <HackEgo> tdh/tdh is the past tense of a successful hth. hth.
03:29:42 <oerjan> <shachaf> It's a little broken due to canary trouble lately. <-- i think possibly `revert has trouble with reverting file creation? and that it may be unrelated to the canary.
03:30:04 <shachaf> Did we have canary errors before that fateful day?
03:30:56 <shachaf> you're either wisdom or againsdom
03:31:27 <oerjan> the error is pretty consistent with someone doing rm canary.orig and not expecting that some fool may have turned it into a directory.
03:32:39 <HackEgo> olist/Update notification for the webcomic Order of the Stick.
03:33:25 <tswett> `` echo uuu >> wisdom/color
03:33:30 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:33:44 <HackEgo> Color is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:33:54 <tswett> Did my echo do anything at all?
03:34:13 <oerjan> tswett: (1) we do _not_ >> into wisdoms. (2) it's actually just a cut off line.
03:34:24 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:34:39 <oerjan> `` tail -c +10 wisdom/color
03:34:40 <HackEgo> 0olor is a phenomenon from outer space designed to drive humanity insane and bring forth the new age of Cthulhu.
03:34:56 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you hate newlines twh
03:34:59 <HackEgo> Newlines are le/rn's \ biggest weakness.
03:35:04 <oerjan> `` tail -c 10 wisdom/color
03:35:23 <oerjan> shachaf: because they make wisdoms ugly.
03:36:01 <shachaf> do you hate wisdom/newline
03:36:29 <tswett> Does >> add a newline at the beginning of the appended stuff?
03:36:42 <oerjan> tswett: no, there's already a newline at the end
03:37:13 <shachaf> maybe wisdoms shouldn't have a newline at the end hth
03:38:41 <shachaf> i'm tempted to alter learn and le/rn and so on to use echo -n and remove newlines from all the wisdoms
03:39:02 <shachaf> but that would modify the culprits list
03:40:07 <oerjan> shachaf: the thing is, it will _still_ not help with people doing >> because _they_ aren't going to know about removing newlines from what they add.
03:40:30 <shachaf> sure, but other people can use echo -n >>
03:41:02 <shachaf> rather than learn_append which maybe doesn't work for entries with spaces in their names and so on
03:41:22 <HackEgo> bin/learn_append \ bin/learn_append2 \ bin/print_args_or_input
03:41:48 <shachaf> `culprits bin/learn_append2
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04:00:07 <shachaf> copumpkin: whoa, that picture is great
04:00:28 <zzo38> We can make RDF file which is categorizing the HackEgo wisdom files by date, user, history, arbitrary tags, etc. RDF requires strings to consist only of Unicode codepoints (with a few exceptions), but it does have a way to represent arbitrary binary data so you can use that if the file contains invalid or non-canonical UTF-8 sequences or null bytes.
04:01:25 <zzo38> However, the other problem is if the filename contains invalid UTF-8 sequences. I have a way around that too though. URIs in a RDF document that contain non-ASCII characters are *not* supposed to be percent-encoded or Punycode-encoded. If the filename contains invalid UTF-8 sequences, I suggest percent-encoding them anyways.
04:02:57 <zzo38> (My own RDF parser doesn't care about invalid UTF-8 sequences but it is possible that others will, so for compatibility reasons it must be considered.)
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04:05:37 <shachaf> The picture in question is http://i.imgur.com/6ocuQsZ.jpg
04:06:55 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
04:07:07 -!- oerjan has kicked shachaf Linking NSFL pictures.
04:07:11 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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04:09:18 <shachaf> oerjan: I can't tell if that's serious or not.
04:09:32 <shachaf> But it messed up my irssi windows, since I have it set up to reuse windows and I got a /msg
04:09:49 <shachaf> zzo38: http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3a1ebc/image_generated_by_a_convolutional_network/a
04:10:31 <shachaf> I mean http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3a1ebc/image_generated_by_a_convolutional_network/
04:10:39 <zzo38> O, it is a convolutional network. OK
04:11:22 <zzo38> What is a convolutional network?
04:11:45 <shachaf> It's an artificial neural network that has convolution layers, I think.
04:11:45 <copumpkin> shachaf: yeah! I can't stop staring
04:12:44 <shachaf> A convolution layer is a layer where instead of having an affine map where you can change every weight separately, you have a small convolution matrix thing applied everywhere.
04:13:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i think this pretty much sums it up http://www.reddit.com/r/MachineLearning/comments/3a1ebc/image_generated_by_a_convolutional_network/cs8hsei
04:13:20 <shachaf> So it's like training a whole bunch of the network at once with the same values, I guess.
04:14:45 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know about artificial neural network and other things like that?
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06:02:57 <oren\n> That's some scary stuff!
06:03:26 <Sgeo_> https://twitter.com/fuckeveryword is a thing that exists
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07:48:05 <zzo38> How do you directly build a frequency-domain of a decaying tone?
07:59:58 <Jafet> Hmm, wikipedia has disabled HTTP access
08:00:40 <Jafet> That's going to make it difficult to cache
08:01:36 <zzo38> Yes, I told them that too
08:06:45 <zzo38> Make the proxy server that uses HTTP with the client but HTTPS with the Wikipedia server
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08:19:20 <zzo38> But there is another way. They said they didn't want problems with accessing insecure connections and then someone tamper with it or steal the setting of cookie or whatever. This can be solved by using a different domain name for insecure connections.
08:20:40 <rdococ> so I heard about this "nullity" thing someone thought up 9 years ago... don't get me wrong, it's total BS, but it makes me think... I wonder what an esoteric language with it built in would be like...?
08:22:47 <rdococ> wait... are you shocked? do you think I like the idea? or do you like the idea and are offended?
08:23:04 <zzo38> I do not quite know the answer though.
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08:26:18 <oerjan> we discussed nullity way back and i think we decided it was crap. although here's a more serious way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_theory
08:26:21 <hppavilion1> I always start with hello worlds when I join something new
08:26:21 <rdococ> oh!!! I know what you were doing...
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08:26:45 <rdococ> its okay... its kinda funny actually... but for a second I didn't know what you were talking about...
08:27:06 <hppavilion1> Wait, are you talking to me? I doubt it, but just checking
08:27:15 <HackEgo> hppavilion1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
08:28:48 <zzo38> Is nullity meaning a name for zero divided by zero (even though of course you cannot divide by zero)? I think I heard "nullity" meaning it once?
08:29:46 <rdococ> http://www.bbc.co.uk/berkshire/content/articles/2006/12/06/divide_zero_feature.shtml ... don't get me wrong, 0 / 0 would equal nullity, but that's because 0 / 0 would equal anything if you let it...
08:29:56 <zzo38> I suppose it can be useful to have a name for it in some cases, even though it is not actually a possible operation.
08:29:59 <hppavilion1> I just spent the last few hours writing a Befunge Interpreter in python
08:30:09 <oerjan> there's already an esolang including nullity it's called IEEE 754 hth
08:30:35 <rdococ> a / b = c means c * b = a. applying that to 0/0, we get 0 / 0 = x means x * 0 = 0... and every number satisfies that, including nullity itself
08:30:52 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that
08:31:36 <zzo38> It isn't what I meant though; what I meant is you are explicitly dividing zero by zero. For example to figure out the percentage of questions you answered correctly on a test even though there are no questions on the test.
08:32:10 <oerjan> i'm not sure the befunge experts are awake at the moment
08:32:18 <zzo38> It isn't a number, but rather some kind of convenient shortcut in some cases.
08:32:24 <oerjan> fungot: except you, of course!
08:32:24 <fungot> oerjan: fnord is a fetish, now is. anyway, obviously tusho's dialect forbids " got" it is? :) where would you like
08:32:45 <zzo38> You can't do any proper mathematical operations with it.
08:33:32 <rdococ> IEEE 754 might have been vandalised... there's nothing on the article
08:34:10 <rdococ> you said there was an esolang called IEEE 754
08:34:31 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_floating_point
08:35:21 <rdococ> for most purposes, I would say 0 / 0 = 1.
08:35:51 <hppavilion1> I think that the Befunge interpreter is the longest thing I've ever written. At <500 lines. Which is sad.
08:36:02 <oerjan> hppavilion1: i think the standard thing to do with a new befunge interpreter around here is to get it to pass Deewiant's mycology test suite
08:36:11 <rdococ> that would be a new record for me
08:36:13 <zzo38> rdococ: I would not say any one for "most purposes"
08:36:40 <rdococ> where are you likely to see 0/0 in maths where it's not just an error on your part?
08:37:00 <rdococ> then we'll get the value we should assign to 0/0 for those purposes.
08:37:10 <rdococ> it could equal anything, so any value will do.
08:37:59 <zzo38> Whether or not anything should be assigned at all depends on the situation.
08:38:29 <rdococ> Anderson provides a proof that 0^0 = 0/0. usually, 0^0 = 1 for most purposes
08:38:32 <oerjan> rdococ: l'Hopital's rule hth
08:38:44 <zzo38> Mathematically there is no proper answer that you can use
08:39:24 <zzo38> Although I do think 0^0=1 is valid. But if you have a proof that 0^0 = 0/0 that doesn't seem valid because the "0/0" part is the not-valid part.
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08:40:45 <rdococ> a long while ago I stumbled upon a question, "in a foreign country, 5 / 2 = 3. based on the same proportions, what is 10 / 3?" I immediately thought, "what foreign country would do this and why?"
08:41:15 <rdococ> I wonder if every country did that before the invention/discovery/whatever of zero.
08:41:19 <zzo38> It doesn't make sense.
08:42:52 <rdococ> it does to me... simply put, such a country denies the existence of zero in their mathematical teachings. in modern countries, x / 2 is the number in the middle of 0 and x. but when and where zero doesn't exist, x / 2 would be the number in the middle of 1 and x instead.
08:46:15 <zzo38> I was making different assumptions, in an attempt to be mathematically correct; it has nothing to do with foreign countries or whether or not zero is invented
08:53:48 <rdococ> well, of course 5 / 2 does not equal 3. I wasn't saying it does.
08:54:16 <rdococ> but in a world without 0, or in a world without fractions, division or numbers might take a different meaning
08:54:43 <rdococ> for example, someone might say 5 objects / 2 objects = 3 objects, even if the third object is only half as big as the other two
08:54:56 <rdococ> but we would say 5 / 2 = 2.5
08:54:59 <zzo38> Maybe, I don't know. But, the current mathematical way would still be possible too.
08:55:43 <rdococ> even if there's no concept of the number zero, it has no effect on the applications of division and sharing
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08:56:36 <rdococ> imagine if we could create an esolang with this alternate division
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11:43:56 <mroman> @tell oerjan http://codepad.org/LA8kRBCM
12:01:26 <Taneb> Does anyone know enough about http://www.eclipse.org/epsilon/ to give me a tl;dr
12:02:16 <int-e> . o O ( I can do the ;dr part just fine... )
12:03:08 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, evidently not
12:12:52 <rdococ> epsilon = 1/infinity = 1/(1/0) = 0...
12:14:05 <Taneb> Hmm, the ebook documenting it is written by 4 people from this uni
12:14:12 <rdococ> omg... I have an idea...
12:15:19 <Taneb> `learn epsilon stands for Extensible Platform of Integrated Languages for Model Management (EPILMM)
12:15:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'epsilon': epsilon stands for Extensible Platform of Integrated Languages for Model Management (EPILMM)
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12:16:13 <rdococ> you know numbers, 1, 2, 3...? when you mutiply a number x by some number y and add some number z, you get a linear function with a constant derivative...? imagine a number δ you can multiply by some other number y and add another number z, where you don't get a linear function with a constant derivative...?
12:17:09 <Taneb> I do not think such language exists
12:17:23 <rdococ> but imagine if there was... that'd be... interesting
12:17:35 <rdococ> more interesting than that nullity bull
12:18:33 <rdococ> also... another idea... there are minus numbers and plus numbers, why can't there be multiplicative numbers or divisional numbers? -3, +4, *2, and /6
12:19:04 <Taneb> That sounds interesting...
12:19:11 <Taneb> It would make arithmetic weird
12:19:20 <mroman> What's the system called where an operation is carried out if enough arguments are available
12:19:21 <Taneb> What is 3 times *4 for example?
12:19:47 <mroman> meaning that 5 + 3, + 3 5 and 5 3 + are actually equivalent and are both the same expressions in that system
12:19:53 <Taneb> This makes multiplication non-commutative and non-associative
12:20:00 <Taneb> Maybe addition too
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12:21:10 <mroman> (they are semantically identical)
12:21:34 <rdococ> and, multiplicative numbers would act like δ as I said - the second derivative of δx+b isn't constant zero
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12:22:37 <Taneb> rdococ, would there be exponential numbers?
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12:24:56 <rdococ> 2 - ^2 = square root of 2
12:27:29 <Taneb> What about ^3 ^ ^2?
12:29:41 <ais523> is this some sort of logarithm-based arithmetic?
12:29:58 <Taneb> ais523, it is where numbers carry operators
12:30:05 <ais523> and + is concatenation?
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12:35:24 <Taneb> Anyway, I need to figure out what Epsilon is by Friday afternoon
12:36:58 <ais523> @message mauris you can omit the parens in a method call in Lua? you seem to do to that inconsistently, I think I'm missing what the parse rules are for it
12:36:58 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: messages messages-loud messages?
12:37:10 <ais523> @ask mauris you can omit the parens in a method call in Lua? you seem to do to that inconsistently, I think I'm missing what the parse rules are for it
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12:38:20 <b_jonas> ais523: you can omit them if the argument is a string literal or table constructor iirc
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12:38:39 <mroman> Does C11 have generics yet?
12:38:48 <ais523> mroman: it has _Generic, so no
12:38:55 <ais523> (_Generic is sort-of the opposite of generics, in a way)
12:39:07 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.lua.org/manual/5.3/manual.html#3.4.10
12:39:43 <ais523> huh, I've never actually read the Lua spec
12:39:51 <ais523> I guess there'll be some nice bedtime reading for me :-)
12:39:59 <mroman> instead of having node_t with a void* data; pointer
12:40:12 <mroman> you could have node_<type> with a type* data; pointer
12:40:19 <b_jonas> ais523: asking here is also ok
12:40:42 <mroman> I mean I could do stuff like uhm
12:40:52 <ais523> b_jonas: that requires being oline
12:41:08 <mroman> #define list_int list_t
12:41:14 <mroman> to annotate that this list points to integers
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12:41:35 <rdococ> imagine an infinite-dimensional polynomial number plane, with units like 1, x, x^2, x^3, x^4, x^5...
12:41:38 <b_jonas> ais523: true. whereas the docs are downloadable
12:41:59 <b_jonas> and the implementation too
12:42:15 <mroman> or just name it foo(list_t int_list);
12:42:19 <ais523> I have a standalone Lua impl already but I rarely use it
12:42:27 <ais523> I use it for testing the algorithmic parts of Enigma levels sometimes
12:42:43 <rdococ> a Polynomial datatype, with a number for each exponentiation... 2 + 3x + 4x^2, is stored as the tuple (2, 3, 4)...
12:42:52 <b_jonas> even though I usually have internet connection, I have a lot of things downloaded that I'm not using right now but could be useful
12:43:00 <mroman> I think C++ has some stuff like that
12:43:02 <b_jonas> I think as you're less often online you probably do that more
12:43:28 <b_jonas> but I have used lua to write at least one signature-length obfu
12:43:47 <mroman> template <typename T> struct node { T* data; node* next; };?
12:44:25 <mroman> I'll guess I'll use a C++ compiler then *only* for the template feature :D
12:44:27 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127 end;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:44:36 <b_jonas> but something close to that should work
12:44:48 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127end;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:44:49 <HackEgo> lua: (command line):1: attempt to call a nil value \ stack traceback: \ (command line):1: in main chunk \ [C]: in ?
12:44:58 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127end;io.write(string.char(c))\nend--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:44:58 <HackEgo> lua: (command line):1: attempt to call a nil value \ stack traceback: \ (command line):1: in main chunk \ [C]: in ?
12:45:26 <b_jonas> `lua -e a="for b=2,26 do c=0;for d,e in ipairs({a:byte(1,-1)})do c=(b*c+e)%127\nend;io.write(string.char(c))end--$S`U$-}OPX41,@aYH\3\26Q2\23*|>"; loadstring(a) {ambrus}
12:45:44 <b_jonas> it's easier when it has an actual newline there
12:46:39 <b_jonas> this one sucks, I should rewrite it
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16:04:09 <ais523> b_jonas: is the trailing comma traditional in any language but Perl?
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16:04:25 <ais523> (actually I don't know why it's there in Perl either, I'm assuming historical reasons; maybe a typo or optimization in the very first JAPH)
16:08:02 <ais523> Taneb: the standard output of a JAPH is "Just another Perl hacker,\n"
16:08:30 <ais523> b_jonas's JALH has a trailing comma despite not being in Perl
16:08:43 <Taneb> Just A Lisp Hacker?
16:08:44 <ais523> (and the goal of a JAPH is to print that string in as bizarre a way as possible)
16:09:27 <Taneb> What would be a bizarre language to write a JA*H for
16:10:08 <ais523> Python, although that's probably been done
16:10:22 <ais523> basically languages which aren't meant to have weird corners
16:10:24 <Taneb> Two languages I do not know very well
16:10:28 <ais523> Prolog would be a good one too, but for a different reason
16:10:45 <Taneb> Saying that I do not know many languages very well
16:11:13 <ais523> oh, not Burlesque, the more obvious ways have to be readable
16:11:28 <ais523> there's not much point of doing a JAMH in Malbolge because it doesn't look visually different from any other Malbolge program
16:12:04 <ais523> (Whitespace is the extreme example of that principle, I guess…)
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16:31:03 <Taneb> I am bored I think that I will install a new OS on my laptop
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16:32:38 <ais523> wait, people get bored?
16:32:59 <ais523> sometimes I get drained of mental energy and can't do anything interesting, but there's always tons of stuff I want to do and don't have time to
16:33:30 <Taneb> ais523, I forget to write those down
16:33:54 <Taneb> And then forget what they are
16:34:45 <Taneb> Actually, I will work on my natural numbers representation
16:37:15 <Taneb> newtype Nat = Nat [Nat]
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16:40:12 <ais523> Taneb: with the second Nat there being a constructor?
16:40:22 <ais523> that seems more general than the naturals, offhand
16:40:37 <Taneb> ais523, with the restriction that the lists are finite and finitely deep
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17:10:39 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, i still don't get how this representation is meant to work
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17:14:04 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, https://gist.github.com/Taneb/f2021eab65ba59aa3693
17:14:39 <Taneb> Basically, it's a list of the offsets between the set digits, starting from least significant
17:25:16 <FreeFull> I imagine doing JA*H would work well in J
17:26:24 <ais523> now I'm trying to remember which humour article it was that claimed that C was a recursive acronym
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17:27:46 <shachaf> http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2008-02-01.txt 17:22:56: <ais523> like the entry from the IAQ: "C is a recursive acronym. It stands for 'C'."
17:28:18 <ais523> presumably I thought this was amusing even back in 2008
17:28:37 <HackEgo> Thanks, past ais523. Thast ais523.
17:28:46 <shachaf> http://www.seebs.net/faqs/c-iaq.html
17:29:00 <ais523> it's basically a parody FAQ for C
17:30:18 <HackEgo> C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
17:33:51 <pikhq> Those are some delightful answers.
17:34:13 <HackEgo> indentity function/indentity function is the function that measures how indented source code is.
17:39:33 <J_Arcane> fn main(){for x in 1..101{match(x%3,x%5){(0,0)=>println!("FizzBuzz"),(0,_)=>println!("Fizz"),(_,0)=>println!("Buzz"),_=>println!("{}",x),}}}
17:40:08 <fowl> Rust is esoteric yes
17:42:22 <pikhq> Now do it in valid C without headers.
17:42:34 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
17:43:08 <ais523> pikhq: is there some trick I'm missing to that (C fizzbuzz without headers)? printf seems like the hardest part but that can be declared manually
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17:43:38 <pikhq> ais523: Nah, just that most people don't realize it's legal to declare functions without using headers if you can declare them without reference to types in headers.
17:44:07 <pikhq> At least, it seems like some toolchain devs don't realize it. :P
17:44:10 <ais523> you do have to get the declaration right (unless you're using gcc, which will tell you if you've got it wrong and ignore it, IIRC)
17:44:37 <ais523> one thing many people don't realise is that you can declare things like printf /inside/ functions
17:44:41 <pikhq> Yes, but note that int foo(); is a valid declaration.
17:44:56 <ais523> actually, can't you do something like "extern int x, printf(const char *, ...);"?
17:45:26 <pikhq> int printf(); is a full declaration of printf.
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17:46:23 <ais523> pikhq: without the extern?
17:46:52 <ais523> hmm, now I need to try to figure out what extern actually does on functions, if anything
17:47:04 <pikhq> This behavior, BTW, means glibc's strerror_r is nonconforming. :)
17:48:12 <pikhq> (as is mingw's printf, but mingw only resembles C if you squint at it anyways)
17:48:59 <ais523> mingw's printf uses 64 to print long longs :-P
17:49:06 <ais523> *mingw's printf uses %I64 to print long longs :-P
17:49:21 <ais523> sorry, forgot that %I in Konversation is an escape for tab, which it renders as "toggle italics"
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18:17:10 <HackEgo> pietbot/Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
18:17:23 <HackEgo> oerjan_/oerjan_ is oerjan and ørjan's chimæric clone. he shows up on irc when the network is having trouble.
18:21:03 <zzo38> If your program uses SQLite, you can still use SQLite's printf functions to print long long numbers in the way compatible with other computers too
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18:22:22 <zzo38> (Another way is you can use #ifdef to check)
18:23:59 <shachaf> zzo38: One time I was playing Magic: The Gathering, and I equipped Executioner's Hood on Chromanticore, thinking it was a good move.
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18:27:24 <ais523> shachaf: hey, it's still unblockable by the eldrazi titans!
18:27:41 <ais523> (also it has flying anyway…)
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18:29:10 <shachaf> There were no Eldrazi in the game.
18:29:35 <ais523> still not a 100% useless move unless you /knew/ there were no Eldrazi in the game :-P
18:29:57 <ais523> (also, Ugin's Herald was recently printed, which is colourless because it couldn't be an artifact for flavour reasons)
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18:31:00 <shachaf> The format was "Innistrad and onward".
18:31:29 <ais523> Ugin's Herald is in Dragons of Tarkir, which is the most recent major set
18:31:41 <ais523> also, I didn't realise people still played Extended
18:32:45 <ais523> trying to work out if there are any potential colourless nonartifact creatures under those restrictions
18:33:52 <ais523> ah right, I must be remembering the wrong name from somewhere
18:34:35 <J_Arcane> So this seems like a place where people are likely to know; I seem to be confused (or perhaps not and others are) on the distinction between "closure" and "lambda/anonymous function". I've been reading about Rust and Lua a lot lately, and they repeatedly refer to an anonymous function as a "closure," but my understanding was that a closure was rather a specific use of an anonymous function...
18:34:36 <J_Arcane> ...that captures some local state.
18:34:59 <shachaf> A closure isn't necessarily a function at all.
18:35:41 <shachaf> But anyway a closure is a way to implement things that "lexically close" over their environment.
18:35:45 <ais523> J_Arcane: a closure is basically some way of capturing your current local variables in scope
18:35:49 <J_Arcane> Indeed, the terms as explained to me were overlapping but not exclusive: a non-anonymous function can be a closure, and an anonymous function doesn't have to be a closure either.
18:35:49 <ais523> so that you can refer to them later
18:35:57 <shachaf> It can be anonymous or not, and in some cases it doesn't have to be a function at all.
18:36:09 <ais523> they're mostly only useful for nested and anonymous function definitions; I don't think it'd /technically/ have to be for a function but it nearly always is
18:36:44 <ais523> and a "lexical closure" captures lexical scope; I guess you could have a dynamic closure which captures dynamically-scoped variables
18:36:53 <ais523> but that's probably no different to making a copy
18:36:56 <shachaf> In Haskell closures are useful for non-functions.
18:38:38 <zzo38> shachaf: Whether something is a good move usually depends on the situation.
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18:41:33 <zzo38> For example unblockable by colorless eldrazi cards as mentioned above, or if you just want to unequip it from your other creature
18:42:28 <ais523> most of the cases I can think of where I'd want a creature unequipped - and I wanted to equip it in the first place - it's because something has happened to the equipment to make it hurt the creature it's on
18:42:46 <ais523> in which case, it seems unlikely that I'd have something more valuable than a chromanticore to save
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19:01:45 <ais523> (OK, so it only costs 5, but it's the most difficult 5)
19:06:27 <shachaf> The context was that I had an artifact deck with all colorless creatures, so Executioner's Hood was great.
19:06:50 <shachaf> And since all my creatures were colorless, I had land colors evenly distributed.
19:07:15 <shachaf> And since I had all sorts of land colors, I put in a Chromanticore.
19:07:52 <shachaf> Under the reasoning that it wasn't colorless but at least it was color-balanced.
19:08:42 <ais523> shachaf: fwiw, those decks which are full of colourless cards normally run colourless lands because they have nice side effects
19:08:45 <ais523> basics are cheaper, though
19:09:20 <ais523> (in Commander, you actually /have/ to run colourless lands in a colourless deck; there are actually enough even for a 100-card deck, but it can be a pain finding them all)
19:10:39 <pikhq> I wish they'd print Cave.
19:11:40 <ais523> pikhq: a basic land that generates {1}?
19:12:01 <Taneb> I need to get more into Magic, but I am refusing to spend money on it
19:12:03 <ais523> pikhq: apparently they've been trying for literally years but it breaks too many things to add another basic land
19:12:04 <pikhq> They were *this* close at one point to printing "Cave. Basic Land - Cave."
19:12:11 <ais523> Taneb: continue not spending money on it
19:12:17 <Taneb> ais523, it is working well so far
19:12:21 <pikhq> ais523: Yeah, it's a rules headache to introduce.
19:12:22 <ais523> you can do what I do, which is to read a lot of articles and not actually play
19:12:22 <Taneb> I have a few friends who lend me decks
19:12:44 <ais523> they've been trying ever since Domain was invented, which is a very long time ago in Magic terms
19:15:19 <shachaf> Taneb: I can give you a bunch of cards when you come visit.
19:15:52 <Taneb> shachaf, I may one day take you up on this offer
19:17:31 <pikhq> Grrawr, impatience.
19:17:51 <zzo38> But the other reason might be if you want to force opponent to block one of your other cards then you would unequip Executioner's Hood, therefore equip to something else instead.
19:17:56 <Taneb> shachaf, if you can pay for my flights, sure
19:19:59 <pikhq> Flights from Europe? to SFO? are probably pretty pricy.
19:20:22 <ais523> I'd guess in the hundreds of pounds range
19:20:31 <ais523> (also you'd likely need to fly back the other way too)
19:20:46 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how flights compare to ferries, price-wise, over that kind of distance
19:20:54 <ais523> that's the only other viable option and it's much slower
19:21:36 <shachaf> You could fly to the east coast and then hitchhike here.
19:22:03 <ais523> shachaf: hmm, I wouldn't actually expect costs to the east coast and to the west coast to be all that different; I'd expect popular destination / unpopular destination to be more of a factor
19:22:16 <ais523> the US is very wide, and so there'll be fuel and staffing costs going from one side to the other
19:22:23 <shachaf> As I remember it it's somewhat cheaper.
19:22:36 <ais523> but the Atlantic is also wide, and overheads in flying internationally are going to be relevant
19:22:44 <ais523> plus, of course, the standard cost of flying generally
19:22:55 <ais523> anyway, you can get cheaper flights if you're willing to be advertised at constantly en route
19:23:07 <shachaf> Usually transatlantic flights to here consist of two legs.
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19:23:23 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, also depends on when you buy the tickets and stuff like that
19:23:30 <pikhq> SFO-London is a well-established direct flight though.
19:23:31 <shachaf> But maybe that's less true for .uk than for .il.
19:23:37 <b_jonas> like, whether they guess it's a popular time or not
19:23:57 <ais523> shachaf: I would be very surprised if there wasn't a direct flight from Heathrow
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19:24:09 <ais523> it's got to be one of the most connected airports in the world
19:24:32 <pikhq> ais523: There is, it's one of the top 10 most heavily flown flights between Europe and North America I believe.
19:24:39 <ais523> (this reminds me of Birmingham New Street, actually, the most connected train station in the UK; London doesn't have a single major train station, just lots of small ones)
19:25:17 <ais523> strangely, not all traffic to central Birmingham goes through New Street; some uses Moor Street instead, which is maybe about 200m away from it but on different physical train lines
19:25:24 <ais523> probably just due to not being able to fit all the lines into one station
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19:25:34 <pikhq> I don't think Heathrow flies direct to that *many* US airports, but SFO is a big damned airport.
19:25:40 <shachaf> Sounds like a conversation for #trains.
19:25:45 <Taneb> OK, 800 there and back
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19:26:02 <Taneb> In late September, on British Airways
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19:26:10 <shachaf> You want me to pay for a flight back, too?
19:26:26 <Taneb> Well, BA there, AA back, there direct, back via Dallas
19:26:34 <Taneb> shachaf, I did say my flights
19:26:35 <pikhq> Well, customs gets pissy when you don't have a visa and don't have a return flight.
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19:26:51 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but mind you, some of that stuff was probably built when the city was smaller and is very hard to change now
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19:27:13 <b_jonas> like, in Budapest, trains can enter from three directions, somewhat corresponding to the three main railway station endpoints but not completely,
19:27:21 <ais523> b_jonas: actually, what happened with Birmingham Moor Street was, they had a reasonably large station there
19:27:39 <ais523> then decided they needed a through line, which they built a bit too far from the station, and so they made a new Moor Street station and closed the old one
19:27:49 <ais523> and then it grew enough that nowadays they use both stations
19:27:54 <ais523> and made them into one continuous building
19:28:35 <b_jonas> and this results in two big cuts in Pest cutting it to three pieces, where there's only train tracks in the cuts, and other vehicles can't cross at all, because no road can cross the trains, and even pedestrians can't go through
19:29:00 <b_jonas> so if you look at the car map of Budapest, there's basically the Danube which you can cross only on bridges, plus a smaller cut from the two mountains, plus these two big cuts
19:29:11 <b_jonas> and it's even worse by bus
19:29:45 <b_jonas> so for any place in Pest that's not in the city, the route there is obvious:
19:30:20 <b_jonas> if it's near Újpest, to the north of Rákosrendező, you have to take metro 3 to the north then change to a bus;
19:30:37 <b_jonas> if it's in the middle between Rákosrendező and Keleti, take metro 2 and change to a bus;
19:30:50 <b_jonas> if it's on the south, take metro 3 to the south and then take a bus.
19:31:27 <b_jonas> all three metros don't reach far enough, so a large part of the outer town is covered by buses only from the terminus of the metro or two or three other metro stations close to the terminus
19:31:37 <ais523> b_jonas: is the metro a sort of local train line? and does it run underground?
19:31:49 <ais523> (the word "metro" is used for a huge number of different things in English)
19:31:53 <b_jonas> yes, the metro is mostly undreground,
19:32:04 <b_jonas> it does come up to the surface near some of the ends
19:32:36 <b_jonas> there's now three of them, metro 3 is the biggest and covers north and south, and is underground everywhere except the very end at south
19:33:29 <b_jonas> metro 2 covers east and comes up to above ground near the end for the last two stations,
19:33:54 <ais523> London has way more than 3 underground lines
19:34:19 <b_jonas> metro 2 also goes a bit to north-Buda, which is traditionally considered the rich part of Budapest, so most people have cars, but for those who don't, the tram lines are getting somewhat improved in the future hopefully,
19:34:22 <ais523> whereas Birmingham doesn't have an underground system, but has an above-ground train system that links to pretty much all areas of the city, also one tram
19:34:31 <b_jonas> and metro 4 is new and covers south-Buda
19:35:00 <Taneb> Newcastle has a weird undergroundy overgroundy thing with poor coverage of the west of the city
19:35:03 <ais523> (some of the lines go underground very near the centre, but they're all /mostly/ above-ground)
19:35:06 <Taneb> York has nothing of the sort
19:35:27 <b_jonas> technically there's also metro line 1 which is different, it covers only the city, and isn't deep underground, but immediately below roads
19:35:54 <ais523> London's underground lines get deeper and deeper the newer they are
19:36:07 <ais523> the really old ones, they just cut the ground open, built the line, then built a roof over it
19:36:22 <ais523> the newest ones they're boring through rock
19:36:35 <b_jonas> there are also HÉVs, which are trains that _should_ ideally be continuation of the metros that cover the farther parts of the town and the agglomeration,
19:36:40 <ais523> and sometimes it takes longer to walk down to the train line, then back up again at the destination, than it takes the train to get from station to statin
19:36:47 <b_jonas> and ideally should be just the continuation of the metros,
19:36:58 <b_jonas> but there's two problems with that idea,
19:37:21 <b_jonas> one is that some of them are placed inconveniently and don't match the metros, but only trams,
19:37:46 <b_jonas> and the other is that for all kinds of stupid policy reasons they just can't be converted to get connected with the metro even where it could work.
19:40:20 <b_jonas> and they all go above ground, but they're not metro because, and they're also not train which anyone can tell from how you need different tickets, there's no toilets on the carriages, the rules for bicycles is different, and the tracks have designated directions, namely right hand side on most lines, but left hand side on the eastbound lines.
19:40:43 <b_jonas> so basically, there's metros and HÉV and trams and they're unconnectible and don't ever form a sane system.
19:43:19 <b_jonas> the trams are actually different
19:43:39 <b_jonas> trams work like road traffic, they often have to wait for traffic lights together with cars, or even wait for cars to pass,
19:44:29 <b_jonas> whereas road traffic always has to yield to trains and HÉV at level crossings because those can't stop.
19:44:46 <b_jonas> but the metro and HÉV situation is just stupid and traditional
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19:59:44 <FireFly> In Stockholm we have two relatively shallow lines, one deeper line behind those two, and then they're building a commuter rail tunnel that's going to go below /that/ line
20:00:51 <shachaf> I thought you were in .fi.
20:00:57 <shachaf> I might be confusing you with someone else.
20:01:22 <shachaf> I was in Stockholm once. Twice.
20:01:54 <shachaf> I was 3 years old the first time.
20:02:05 <FireFly> I think it's a pretty boring city, but I guess that's because I'm just too used to it
20:02:42 <shachaf> The second time we went to one or more museums.
20:02:55 <shachaf> I must've been 15 years old.
20:03:01 <shachaf> Museums aren't usually my thing.
20:03:08 <FireFly> Perhaps you saw our excellent example of engineering; a ship that broke after a couple km
20:03:35 <FireFly> It's probably the most popular museum here
20:03:54 <shachaf> I also met some friends and/or relations.
20:05:34 <olsner> I was also surprised about FireFly being in stockholm, but I think I was confusing you with Vorpal
20:06:21 <FireFly> I remember Vorpal being in the middle of the forest somewhere
20:06:29 <FireFly> Maybe in Värmland or something? I don't know
20:07:02 <olsner> I think he told me some time, but I don't remember where
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21:04:26 <ais523> huh, xkcd was in an esolangy mood recently: http://xkcd.com/1537/
21:04:50 <ais523> I thought those examples might be from an actual language for a while, but clearly they aren't
21:04:56 <ais523> thus, must definitely be in esolang territory
21:10:46 <nys> i think it might be a take on that javascript wat thing
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21:11:17 <ais523> many languages do that sort of thing, but not so extreme
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21:13:12 <Taneb> ais523, we had a discussion trying to figure it out
21:13:42 <ais523> I don't think there /is/ a pattern, and I think that's the point
21:14:03 <HackEgo> recursion/You might expect a reference to recursion here, but to make it interesting you'll actuallSTACK OVERFLOW
21:15:07 <Taneb> ais523, [1], [2], [4], are just weird casting, [13] is just an unusual floor function
21:15:19 <Taneb> [5] I think is oddly greedy quote marks
21:15:34 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
21:15:44 <Taneb> [10] is working out the line number + 2
21:15:51 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
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21:16:11 <Taneb> [11] add 2 to the number 2, so whenever there is a 2 in the future there is a 4 instead (see [12]^W[14])
21:16:11 <ais523> I can't explain [2] with weird cast rules though
21:16:22 <ais523> Taneb: oh, 11 is Forte-style? I missed that
21:16:58 <Taneb> ais523, I think it's casting "2" to an int, then to a list of ints, then appending the two lists, then turning the whole thing into a string
21:17:16 <ais523> Taneb: exactly, there's no reason to turn the whole thing into a string at the end
21:17:24 <ais523> other than that a string was involved to start with
21:17:30 <Taneb> I did specify weird casting rules, right?
21:17:45 <ais523> or, maybe this is an everything-is-a-string language like Perl is when it doesn't leak implementation details?
21:18:12 <Taneb> I don't really know what [6] through [8] are doing, though
21:18:21 <ais523> IMO, philosophically, in Perl, if you write (say) 10 that's really just sugar for the string "10", and the fact that it's stored internally as an int is an implementation detail
21:18:43 <Taneb> Well, [8] is making fun of IEEE floating point
21:18:46 <ais523> Taneb: in [8], the idea is that the denominator is approximately 0
21:18:54 <ais523> thus, dividing 2 by it gives you a NaN with a rounding error
21:19:08 <ais523> (although that specific example doesn't work because it's using powers of 2)
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22:30:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hppavilion1 * New user account
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22:36:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Damarok]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43214 * Hppavilion1 * (+243) Created Article (I'm so sorry)
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22:48:00 <HackEgo> off by two/An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction
22:48:16 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/off by two
22:49:16 <HackEgo> mroman_/mroman_ is probably mroman but you can never be sure. (NSFW)
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22:50:07 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
22:51:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang talk:Categorization]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43215&oldid=42034 * Hppavilion1 * (+403) /* Category: Libraries */ new section
22:51:47 <pikhq> It feels a bit like magic sometimes, cooking.
22:52:20 <pikhq> I mean, somehow some flour, salt, baking powder, butter, milk, and sausage turned into biscuits and gravy.
22:58:18 <hppavilion1> They better have programmed that in modified BrainFuck or something
22:59:00 <pikhq> HackEgo is weird, but in a way different from what you expect.
22:59:21 <pikhq> Each command is a Linux program. It spawns a Linux kernel, runs that program, and outputs the result.
22:59:38 <pikhq> Now, if you want an esolang bot, you need look no further than fungot.
22:59:38 <fungot> pikhq: depends on the order i described it roughly earlier. have a happy fnord i am
22:59:41 <pikhq> fungot is in Befunge.
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23:00:57 <pikhq> It's a pretty neat language.
23:01:31 <ais523> hppavilion1: -93 or -98?
23:01:32 <hppavilion1> I promised anyone reading my commits I'd get it working today...
23:01:36 <ais523> anyway, if you haven't seen it yet
23:01:40 <ais523> get hold of a copy of Mycology
23:01:46 <ais523> it'll catch a ton of common mistakes
23:01:56 <ais523> why do we not have actually useful information in the learndb? :-(
23:02:45 <ais523> `learn mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
23:02:47 <HackEgo> Learned 'mycology': mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
23:02:55 <pikhq> Befunge-98 is kinda hard to implement.
23:02:56 <ais523> hppavilion1: definitely read that, it'll probably tell you what your interp is doing wrong
23:03:09 <hppavilion1> And stumled across an idea for a language called Darmok
23:03:13 <pikhq> Befunge-93 is not very hard, but it's also not that interesting to have an implementation for. :)
23:03:34 <hppavilion1> So I created a page for it. I apologized in the notes
23:03:44 <ais523> Befunge-98 is a great language to impl, though
23:03:51 <ais523> there are several Mycology-passing interps now I think
23:03:56 <hppavilion1> Darmok, if you aren't aware, is an episode of ST:TNG. Apparently
23:04:37 <hppavilion1> In Darmok, they encouter a species that communicates completely through metaphors and references to local mythology
23:04:54 <pikhq> True. It's hard to implement, but hard to implement in interesting ways.
23:05:05 <pikhq> And a Befunge-98 implementation can actually do neat things.
23:05:55 <hppavilion1> "Terminate Sibling" for example, would be CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN (if "terminate sibling" is even a real command)
23:06:24 <ais523> it's actually an operation that can be done on threads that makes sense, and might potentially be slightly useful on occasion
23:06:25 <pikhq> What, though, does DARMOK AND JILAD AT TENAGRA mean?
23:06:45 <ais523> e.g. if you're doing some sort of threaded exhaustive search and only need one result
23:06:53 <pikhq> Or, indeed, GILGAMESH AND ENKIDU AT URUK?
23:07:05 <hppavilion1> I think that Damarok the language would also only reference real mythology
23:07:16 <hppavilion1> I don't remember how the epic of gilgamesh goes
23:07:31 * pikhq was just referencing the episode; don't mind me
23:07:35 <ais523> the problem isn't so much finding something for your commands to do, though, but finding some way to express the commands you need
23:07:48 <ais523> or, well, you can just add a ton of commands and hope they add up to something TC
23:07:53 <ais523> (see: initial Snowflake)
23:07:56 <hppavilion1> The problem would be that there would ALWAYS be libraries needed
23:08:04 <hppavilion1> And everyone would implement them differently
23:08:06 <ais523> actually that was awkward because I needed a pretty exact amount of computational power
23:08:41 <hppavilion1> So they'd need to implement the entirety of some libraries on their own
23:09:13 <ais523> hppavilion1: that's not so dissimilar from INTERCAL, we solved the problem by encouraging people to submit them to a centralised repo
23:09:14 <hppavilion1> I think to terminate a sibling you would type "CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN, WHERE ABEL IS <sibling>"
23:09:24 <ais523> so they could use each other's libraries
23:09:41 <ais523> (even more a problem in INTERCAL because all line numbers are global, so you need to avoid clashes between different libaries)
23:10:24 <hppavilion1> So I think that every statement would have two clauses (well, one main clause and an arguments clause), separated by the comma
23:10:48 <hppavilion1> The command clause is the reference to mythology
23:11:21 <hppavilion1> And the WHERE clause is substitutions (which are needed for formality)
23:11:44 <hppavilion1> So "CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN, WHERE ABEL IS <sibling>" means to kill a process of name <sibling>
23:12:13 <hppavilion1> "CAIN AND ABEL IN THE GARDEN" alone would... I don't know... Kill the next sibling sequentially?
23:12:21 <ais523> <Deewiant> mycology.b98 tests every fingerprint that I am aware of, apart from FNGR, SGNL, and WIND. ← it doesn't test IFFI :-(
23:13:17 <hppavilion1> Of course that doesn't account for complex statements...
23:13:23 <ais523> I think IFFI postdates Mycology, though
23:14:16 <hppavilion1> Name a famous decision from popular folklore/mythology
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23:15:29 <ais523> crossing the Rubicon? although that's more historical rather than mythological
23:17:27 <ais523> Julius Caesar taking his part of the Roman Army into Italy (which was totally illegal), thus sparking a civil war
23:17:34 <hppavilion1> CEASER CROSSING THE RUBICON, WHERE CONDITION IS <condition> AND CROSSING IS:\n\t<stuff to do>
23:17:55 <ais523> hppavilion1: note that you don't really want to just design an imperative language with the keywords swapped out
23:18:07 <ais523> because it isn't really interesting
23:18:33 <hppavilion1> But I'm currently just creating some basic ideas
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23:20:10 <ais523> huh, there's an interesting debate about what exactly Caesar said when crossing the river
23:20:25 <ais523> although it's widely agreed how it's translated into English, there's some debate about the word order of the original and whether it was in Latin or Greek
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23:27:04 <hppavilion1_> What can we do to make it less keyword-swapout-y
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23:28:40 <hppavilion1_> Ideally it'd be able to take a set of metaphors and interpret what they mean, but that'd require a prize-winning AI that probably would lag normal computers to hell
23:30:09 <shachaf> `wisdom doesn't work that way hth
23:30:10 <HackEgo> shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj/shiasdayviaerqjjjjjjjj is the reason why the USA don't use the metric system.
23:30:19 <HackEgo> relevant info/The large-eyed mouse lemur is a nocturnal tree-dweller.
23:30:19 <shachaf> Should `wisdom be merged with `? ?
23:30:37 <HackEgo> fiora/Fiora is half JRPG fangirl, half SIMD dork, and all sucrose. She's a sous-chef who shushes sushi.
23:31:04 <FireFly> I'm pretty sure Fiora isn't shachaf's mum
23:31:10 <ais523> coppro: you probably meant `?
23:31:14 <HackEgo> twh/twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
23:31:23 <FireFly> No, it doesn't take any parameter
23:31:27 <ais523> hppavilion1_: hint: `wisdom ignores any arguments
23:31:35 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
23:31:38 <HackEgo> INTERCAL has excellent features for modular program for the enterprise market.
23:31:47 <pikhq> Huh, it's been a while since Fiora's been here, hasn't it?
23:31:57 <HackEgo> Along with C, C++ is a language for smart people.
23:32:01 <FireFly> pikhq: yeah, I think she left around the time when kmc left
23:32:13 <HackEgo> zork/Zork is like York, except for the first letter.
23:32:15 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:32:19 <pikhq> kmc left too? Nooooo
23:32:29 <pikhq> What's next, no ehird?
23:32:30 <coppro> `learn java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
23:32:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'java': java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
23:32:40 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/learn: line 3: wisdom/: Is a directory \ Learned '':
23:33:03 <ais523> even I've been known to leave this channel for long periods of time, because it wasn't ontopic enough
23:33:06 <ais523> although it's been fine recently
23:33:17 <HackEgo> Learned 'yo': yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:33:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
23:33:35 <ais523> shachaf: I was about to `revert but I think we might have reverted each other
23:33:54 <ais523> we /still/ have a broken canary in the system somewhere?
23:33:56 <HackEgo> java is a programming-language shaped collection of misfeatures
23:34:05 <FireFly> Yeah, it seems it messed up the history somehow
23:34:12 <FireFly> or rather, it's messed up because of the history, somehow
23:34:38 <hppavilion1_> `learn haskell is the most beautiful language ever invented
23:35:02 * FireFly wonders if hppavilion1_'s client chose a nick based on the computer's name, or if it's an actual nickname
23:35:24 <hppavilion1_> I chose the nick when I was 7 and didn't want to forget my username
23:35:33 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
23:35:35 <hppavilion1_> It's usually hppavilion1, but my browser timed out
23:35:50 -!- hppavilion1_ has changed nick to hppavilion1.
23:36:03 <FireFly> It annoys me that my brain lexes it as hpp|avilion|1
23:37:22 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
23:37:34 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed wisdom/yo
23:37:36 <HackEgo> changeset: 5605:a4afa9eaa9ff \ tag: tip \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Jun 17 23:35:10 2015 +0000 \ summary: <hppavilion1_> learn yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:37:42 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/yo: No such file or directory
23:37:46 <HackEgo> yo mama so fat, insert joke here
23:38:17 <shachaf> It seems that revert isn't actually working.
23:38:29 <shachaf> Or it isn't modifying the hg repository, even if it's modifying the working directory?
23:38:46 <shachaf> fizzie: what's going on twh
23:39:49 <hppavilion1> It uses references to mythology and metaphor
23:40:08 <hppavilion1> I have no clue how to implement it short of brute force regexes
23:40:28 <FireFly> That sounds like an inefficient implementation
23:43:14 <hppavilion1> And I suppose it would only sort #included libs
23:44:39 <shachaf> FireFly: also you should set up /hilight on ireFly\b
23:45:03 <hppavilion1> It's more of a thought experiment language and something to use for mindbendingness, not for implementing stuff
23:45:20 <FireFly> shachaf: I probably should, just for you. What channel did I miss it in now?
23:46:16 <hppavilion1> I just use 1 because it's soooo much easier
23:50:52 <tswett> I'm not sure that my newer SLOBOL language can be run faster than double exponential time.
23:51:40 * hppavilion1 DDGs double exponential time, though he's pretty sure he knows what it means
23:52:52 <shachaf> double exponential time is exponential time approximated with double-precision floating point arithmetic
23:53:08 <HackEgo> macabre/The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
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23:54:33 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: walrus: not found
23:54:45 <HackEgo> \ Usage: \ kill [options] <pid> [...] \ \ Options: \ <pid> [...] send signal to every <pid> listed \ -<signal>, -s, --signal <signal> \ specify the <signal> to be sent \ -l, --list=[<signal>] list all signal names, or convert one to a name \ -L, --table list all signal names in a nice table \
23:54:51 <tswett> If a SLOBOL program contains n points, then the easiest upper bound on the number of ways of executing the program is (3^n)!.
23:55:29 <hppavilion1> I must now open wolfram alpha and see that graphed
23:56:40 <tswett> For 0, it's 1; for 1, it's 6; for 2, it's 362880; for 3, it's 10888869450418352160768000000; for 4, it's 5797126020747367985879734231578109105412357244731625958745865049716390179693892056256184534249745940480000000000000000000; and so on.
23:57:19 <tswett> This is just for a naive implementation, though.
23:57:28 <tswett> I haven't actually implemented it.
23:57:47 <tswett> I'm not planning to implement it, either.
23:58:34 <shachaf> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / leave them perplexed
23:58:55 <shachaf> hm, in retrospect that could be seen as slightly rude tdnh
00:01:20 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
00:01:37 <tswett> Ah yes, hairy toe help.
00:02:19 <shachaf> i suppose h stands for hewlett and not higgledy
00:02:32 <tswett> I wonder what HackEgo knows about me.
00:02:37 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
00:03:12 <tswett> Hey hppavilion1, want me to ask my neural net to come up with a random quote from you?
00:03:20 <hppavilion1> `learn hppavilion1 is higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / leave them perplexed
00:03:25 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion1': hppavilion1 is higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / leave them perplexed
00:03:43 <HackEgo> hppavilion1 is higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / leave them perplexed
00:04:31 <FireFly> reading scrollback on a phone is a bit annoying
00:04:33 <tswett> All right, here's your randomly generated quote.
00:04:34 <tswett> 20:05:57: <hppavilion1> lambdabot hackenv/[Nines use length a channel definition transport for the bit really sufficient include branching mode, 10 particular thing though....
00:04:35 <shachaf> `` sed -i -e 's/\w\+ \w\+ //' -e 's/leave them/be left/' wisdom/hppavilion1
00:05:05 <FireFly> Although on that note I should get my phone keyboard after midsummer
00:05:20 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
00:05:43 <shachaf> FireFly: Are you coming visit for some poutine and Magic: The Gathering cards?
00:06:12 <FireFly> You're in SF or something, aren't you?
00:06:28 <lambdabot> KOAK 172353Z 29014KT 10SM FEW180 18/10 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01780100 10206 20172 58004
00:06:39 <shachaf> Maybe pikhq is coming here too?
00:07:02 <FireFly> I don't think I'll visit anytime soon, but if I do I wouldn't mind poutine and Magic
00:07:31 <FireFly> Although I haven't played a lot of MtG and would be really terrible
00:08:16 <FireFly> I've never had poutine. How is it?
00:09:00 <pikhq> It seems very likely I'll be in SF.
00:09:23 <pikhq> I technically don't have the job offer yet, but I should tomorrow.
00:09:35 <shachaf> i,i because in all of the whole human race, mrs. lovett, there are two kinds of men and only two: there's the one staying poutine his proper place, and the one with his foot in the other one's face
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00:09:58 <pikhq> shachaf: Okay, I'll actually be in MTV or thereabouts.
00:10:05 <shachaf> A lot of people I know are going to work in the SF office these days.
00:10:12 <shachaf> Surprising given that it's such a small office.
00:10:14 <pikhq> Apparently some Google employees commute from SF to MTV, but... fuck that.
00:10:32 <shachaf> pikhq: Well, you do get a fancy gentrification bus.
00:10:46 <FireFly> I do wonder what it's like to live in SF
00:10:58 <FireFly> with this... tech company culture
00:10:59 <shachaf> Something about flour in your hair, I think.
00:11:12 <pikhq> I'd prefer not to spend an hour on a bus that's powered by the tears of victims of a failure to build houses.
00:11:29 <ais523> pikhq: that seems like a very inefficient power source
00:11:45 <pikhq> Yes, but in copious supply in SF.
00:12:15 <shachaf> Commuting from SF to MTV isn't uncommon, and not just for Google employees.
00:12:23 <shachaf> It's a pretty backwards situation.
00:12:39 <FireFly> Is one hour a long commute for you?
00:13:18 <FireFly> I commuted one hour to university for a few years, but now I almost live on-campus
00:14:09 <FireFly> I don't think an hour was too bad, although I wouln't want to commute for longer than that.
00:14:10 <pikhq> It's decently long and I hate commute times.
00:14:49 <shachaf> I commute ~6 minutes in the morning, or less if I walk quickly.
00:18:03 <zzo38> What I would want though is the Magic: the Puzzling printed out many ones.
00:20:08 <zzo38> Make up some if you know what to make up
00:24:21 <shachaf> `` echo -n 'FireFly: '; '?' sleep
00:24:22 <HackEgo> FireFly: Sleep is for the weak.
00:26:44 <FireFly> You should bin/'ify that as maybe `@
00:27:06 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl -w \ $_ = join " ", @ARGV; if (s/^([^ ]*) +([^ ]*) +//) { print "$1: "; exec $2, $_; }
00:27:25 <HackEgo> FireFly: Sleep is for the weak.
00:27:37 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan elliott Gregor shachaf shachaf elliott elliott nitia
00:28:12 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed bin/@ | grep summary:
00:28:13 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <oerjan> sed -i \'2s!s/!s/no\\+dl/nooodl/;s/!\' bin/? \ summary: <elliott> mv ibin/"@" bin \ summary: <Gregor> mkdir ibin; for i in bin/*; do if [ "`grep \'\\. lib/interp\' $i`" ]; then mv $i ibin/; fi; done; printf \'#!/bin/sh\\nCMD=`cut -d\' \' -f1 "$1"`\\nARG=`cut -d\' \' -f2- "$2"`\\nexec ibin
00:50:01 <HackEgo> thyme/Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
00:50:06 <HackEgo> narutoverse/narutoverse is a place where they haven't heard of having a bus factor of >1. Sgeo drives the bus.
00:50:12 <HackEgo> wisdom:/wisdom: taking the ovenware out of the oven before turning it on
00:50:56 <HackEgo> ci/The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
00:51:06 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
00:51:13 <ais523> if Taneb did not exist, we would have to invent him?
00:51:57 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il invented wisdom | sed 's#wisdom/##' | xargs
00:51:59 <HackEgo> cpressey twoducks wolfram stephen wolfram chu space go automatic squirrel feeder persistence real mroman weetoflake unicode ci torus d-module rtf sgeo this sentence
00:52:03 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il invented wisdom | sed 's#wisdom/##'
00:52:07 <HackEgo> cpressey \ twoducks \ wolfram \ stephen wolfram \ chu space \ go \ automatic squirrel feeder \ persistence \ real \ mroman \ weetoflake \ unicode \ ci \ torus \ d-module \ rtf \ sgeo \ this sentence
00:52:24 <HackEgo> The reals are a complete ordered Brazilian currency invented by Taneb in 1994.
00:52:48 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/a /an overt /' wisdom/real
00:54:13 <tswett> Gah, this neural net keeps producing output consisting chiefly of dozens and dozens of lines of mroman interacting with bots.
00:54:19 <HackEgo> phantom_______hoover/It doesn't get any better than this.
00:54:25 <HackEgo> poland/Połąńd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes.
00:54:35 <HackEgo> context/context is a word with many meanings, depending on where it is used.
00:54:45 <HackEgo> metaplace/Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
00:56:20 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence.
00:56:33 <ais523> `? automatic squirrel feeder
00:56:34 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
00:58:48 <HackEgo> Sgeo is a language nomad. (Not to be confused with a language monad.) He invented Metaplace sex, thus killing it within a month. He was Doctor Mengele in his previous life, as evidenced by his norn experiments.
00:59:54 <shachaf> `le/rn el camino real/There is no royal road to analytic geometry.
01:01:52 <HackEgo> metaplace/Metaplace ♫ is where I want to be, ♫ I never m*%¤)&"#NO CARRIER
01:01:56 <HackEgo> ingesorgeco/Ingesorgeco is when a German is worrying that their money might get cut short.
01:02:07 <HackEgo> smileyiese/smileyieses is the plural of smiley.
01:02:35 <HackEgo> phantom__hoover/Phantom__Hoover can't decide what an appropriate number of underscores is.
01:02:38 <HackEgo> nortti/nortti boy. very nortti boy.
01:02:43 <HackEgo> radiohead/radiohead is "rock music"
01:02:50 <shachaf> I feel like I might be spamming the channel a bit too much.
01:03:27 <zzo38> You can also look on the webpage for the list of the file too, or you can run `wisdom in private messages
01:03:51 <HackEgo> Brick goes in brain. The statutory punishment for perpetrators of brainfuck derivatives.
01:03:59 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/brick
01:04:56 <tswett> `learn sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published by Taneb in 1932, based on Taneb's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
01:04:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'sex': sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published by Taneb in 1932, based on Taneb's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
01:05:19 <oren\n> I have basically a choice between a job I can walk to at a startup, and I job I have to take the bus to, at a big successful company.
01:05:55 <ais523> oren\n: I take it you're currently looking for jobs?
01:06:04 <ais523> tswett: I used to use them pretty much every day
01:06:10 <HackEgo> ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ Your dongers. Raise them. ヽ༼ຈل͜ຈ༽ﾉ
01:06:32 <ais523> then I got a job, meaning that my discount on the buses no longer applied, and trains became more economical instea
01:06:46 <ais523> also sometimes I walk to work, it only takes about 80 minutes
01:07:02 <shachaf> did you fight your snake yet?
01:07:13 <shachaf> did you publish your thesis?
01:07:39 <coppro> who's fighting snakes?
01:07:42 <ais523> shachaf: thesis is still doing corrections
01:07:51 <tswett> Here's my resume: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2GWN9AyxAkcRzZWU040T0lLZUU/view?usp=sharing
01:07:54 <ais523> coppro: every Basilisk programmer (I think I remembered the name of the language right?)
01:08:00 <ais523> tswett: I would except I can't afford to
01:08:22 <shachaf> tswett: have you considered moving to silly valley hth
01:08:40 <tswett> Is the minimum wage in Britain higher than £8.15 an hour?
01:08:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ?basilisk: not found
01:09:11 <HackEgo> You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!
01:09:23 <ais523> was expecting an invalid command
01:09:28 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ \ import os \ import sys \ import json \ import urllib2 \ \ proxy_handler = urllib2.ProxyHandler({'http': os.environ['http_proxy']}) \ opener = urllib2.build_opener(proxy_handler) \ urllib2.install_opener(opener) \ \ def lose(): \ print 'You get NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY sir!' \ sys.exit() \ \ def eels(): \
01:10:01 <HackEgo> def eels(): \ print 'My hovercraft is full of eels.' \ sys.exit() \ \ if len(sys.argv) > 2: \ args = sys.argv[1:] \ elif len(sys.argv) == 2: \ args = sys.argv[1].split() \ else: \ lose() \ \ if len(args) == 2: \ from_lang = args[0] \ to_lang = 'en' \ word = args[1] \ elif len(args) == 3: \ from_lang = args[0] \
01:11:01 <ais523> tswett: also Wikipedia says it was £9.72 in 2013
01:11:04 <ais523> not sure if it's raised since
01:11:38 <ais523> £6.50 on a different page which is presumably more accurate
01:12:11 <shachaf> But it'll be raised to £6.70 this year.
01:12:22 <oren\n> dude your resume looks way better than mine. you should move to toronto, plenty of jobs here
01:13:07 <oren\n> Maybe I oughtn't have made my resume using Latex
01:16:48 <oren\n> http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=03603668214762132544
01:17:09 <oren\n> see? generic as hell, one font, black and white
01:20:47 <oren\n> yeah I've been to a couple of interviews so far, and essentially companies in Toronto fall into the two groups I described
01:22:32 <oren\n> I could theoretically walk instead of take the bus, but only during seasons where I can stand the heat
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01:23:42 <oren\n> tswett: what program did you use to make that resume?
01:32:54 <shachaf> oren\n: Microsoft® Word 2013 hth
01:36:07 <oren\n> I don't have that option right now
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01:44:33 <tswett> Microsoft Word indeed.
01:44:55 <tswett> HTML also seems pretty decent for making nice-looking documents.
01:45:12 <tswett> LaTeX is all right too, but LaTeX makes it really difficult to do certain things.
01:45:19 <tswett> (And really easy to do certain other things.)
01:45:59 <tswett> oren\n: how would you feel about some feedback?
01:46:04 <ais523> HTML doesn't contain that many rendering hints
01:46:26 <tswett> ais523: rendering hints?
01:47:03 <ais523> tswett: like, HTML intentionally doesn't give full control over layout; nor does LaTeX really except that that always renders the same way
01:47:11 <ais523> whereas HTML changes to the form factor of the device that's viewing it
01:47:21 <ais523> things like font metrics aren't specified
01:47:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43216&oldid=43200 * Esowiki201529A * (+1) /* R */
01:47:32 <ais523> so you can't tell whether an HTML document is nice-looking or not without knowing what will render it
01:47:54 <tswett> But you can use a program to render HTML to PDF.
01:48:03 <ais523> that Esowiki201529A person is trouble, btw (although that edit is harmless)
01:49:52 <oren\n> tswett: that would be great?
01:50:40 <tswett> oren\n: would you say that this resume is organized in order from most important stuff to least important stuff?
01:51:08 <oren\n> yeah pretty much how I did it
01:51:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43217&oldid=43216 * Esowiki201529A * (-1) /* R */
01:54:21 <tswett> Saying "I am an excellent software developer" at the beginning sounds a little strange to me. What's so excellent about you?
01:55:00 <fowl> Did someone put their resume on esolangs wiku
01:56:45 <ais523> fowl: just in the channel
01:56:50 <tswett> If you said something like "I can learn new languages extremely quickly" or "I am extremely good at getting up to speed with existing code" or "I am extremely skilled with database query optimization" or something, that tells me something meaningful about you.
01:57:14 <ais523> `le/rn resume/a resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment
01:57:29 <oren\n> I think the 'excellent' was originally supposed to appy to the software
01:57:49 <tswett> "I am a developer of excellent software"?
01:57:49 <ais523> the pun only works because nobody bothers to type the accent, but…
01:58:00 <ais523> still incredibly generic, though
01:58:08 <oren\n> Yeah maybe that would work better
02:00:58 <oren\n> ais523: How did you type …
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02:02:00 <ais523> specifically, compose . .
02:02:05 <ais523> (I have caps lock bound to compose)
02:02:16 <ais523> I think you're the first person to ask even though I've been doing it for years?
02:03:09 <tswett> I've heard that the best length for a resume (for a non-academic position at the junior level) is one page.
02:03:23 <ais523> tswett: I believe it depends on country
02:03:30 <ais523> but it's normally considered to be 1 in the US and 2 in Europe
02:03:30 <tswett> Yeah, it probably does.
02:03:34 <ais523> not 100% sure on that though
02:04:13 <shachaf> "Resume the Résumé" is a famous song by Cole Porter.
02:04:33 <shachaf> ais523: Do you think le/rn should use two slashes like mk for consistency?
02:04:43 <shachaf> (Or for any other reason.)
02:05:04 <tswett> oren\n: I notice that the experience section is in forward chronological order; I usually see those in reverse chronological order.
02:05:24 <tswett> Do you want people to read about your earliest experience first, or your latest experience?
02:05:31 <ais523> shachaf: one is enough I think
02:05:42 <shachaf> The trouble is that it won't let you make entries with / in them.
02:05:50 <shachaf> Which can exist using subdirectories.
02:07:06 <tswett> Is that the cat hanji?
02:07:45 <oren\n> CSV. cat separated values
02:08:10 <tswett> First I was going to say "neko", then I realized that the character is probably used in Chinese too.
02:08:41 <tswett> The cat hanzi is notable chiefly for its presence in this language: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Combienti%C3%A8m
02:08:57 <tswett> oren\n: I'd suggest trying to make the experience section more concise.
02:11:54 <oren\n> hmm... yeah. I could merge the things into years. having a separate section for each season of each year might be excessive
02:12:04 <tswett> Though I couldn't really suggest any specific thing to cut.
02:12:45 <tswett> Now, is the "2-day Game Jam" actually part of your education?
02:13:20 <oren\n> it was sort of an extracurricular.
02:13:34 <tswett> In any case, reading that makes me wonder what it means that your team won. Does that mean you were judged the best team out of all entrants? How many entrants were there?
02:14:47 <tswett> What was your GPA in university?
02:16:46 <oren\n> tswett: There were somthing like 12 teams. My GPA was not yeat fully decided when I amde this resume.
02:16:56 * oren\n is going to check what it is
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02:18:53 <tswett> That sounds pretty good; assuming it is, you should probably put it on there.
02:21:40 <oren\n> I think if I got all A's it would be 4, and if I got all B's it would be 3.
02:22:12 <oren\n> yeah. and all C's get you 2 and all D's get you 1
02:22:57 <oren\n> So effectivley I got an everage of B+?
02:23:41 <tswett> Now I'm about to say something hypocritical.
02:23:57 <tswett> Seeing your big list of languages and technologies makes me wonder what, exactly, you've done with all those.
02:24:11 <tswett> And that's hypocritical because my resume doesn't explain that either. ^_^
02:24:17 <tswett> "Knowledge and experience with languages including Haskell, Python, C, and SQL"
02:26:41 <tswett> Yeah, I guess what I want to say is that at first glance, the "Experience" section seems a little daunting. But I'm not actually sure what to do about that.
02:26:49 <tswett> Do you know what sorts of positions you'll be applying for?
02:28:36 <oren\n> I've been applying for a variety of different companies in different industries. the only ones I've gotton positive results from (they actually called me on the phone) were a web advertising company, and an AI startup which may or may not suceed
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02:30:01 <oren\n> soo... not really, other than wanting to apply for a job as a "computer programmer" or the synonym de jour
02:31:00 <tswett> Guess I don't really have much more advice I can give.
02:31:51 <tswett> I guess the goal of my resume is to give some idea of what my skill level is and what my skills actually are.
02:32:16 <fowl> My resume has a bunch of lies about me
02:33:00 <tswett> Skills: mathematics, statistics, Haskell, Python, C, SQL, Unix, Linux, C#, ASP.NET MVCq, git, pizza. Skill level: very little professional experience but LOOK AT THIS AMAZING YELLOW BOX
02:33:05 <oren\n> fowl: mine is mostly truth, tempered with my massive overconfidence
02:33:39 <tswett> The cover letter is where I actually explain why I think I'm a good fit for the position.
02:34:13 <oren\n> tbf, it is an amazing yellow box
02:37:20 <oren\n> At least I have a good answer if anyone ever asks me "what's you biggest weakness"... Overconfidence and hubris!
02:37:52 <ais523> I thought I was in #nethack for a moment, that line would fit just fine in there
02:38:04 <tswett> Yeah, I kinda figure. Suppose someone pulls up my resume and glances at it for five seconds. What's the first thing they'll see?
02:38:33 <tswett> I'm hoping they'll take a single glance and see the words "Highest score ever" and think "wait, that sounds pretty cool".
02:38:47 <ais523> tswett: highest score ever at what?
02:39:04 <tswett> The Putnam Mathematical Competition, among students at Grand Valley State University.
02:39:22 <ais523> (again, I remember when the highest ever score at NetHack was scored, I didn't score it but I did give advice; it was almost certainly higher than the total of all NetHack scores before or since)
02:39:27 <oren\n> ais523: it doesn't actually particularly matter! that's the genius of it
02:40:02 <ais523> now I'm hoping nobody ever tries it again
02:40:09 <ais523> because that'll screw up the statistic
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02:42:15 <oren\n> is genial the adjectival form of genius
02:45:07 <oren\n> wait apparently I wrote:
02:45:25 <oren\n> I have written programs in a variety of Languages
02:45:41 <oren\n> why did I capitalize the Languages?!!??
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02:48:21 <tswett> Oh right, I forgot to mention that.
02:48:35 <tswett> "neural networks AI" doesn't sound right to me.
02:49:10 <tswett> "neural network AI" would be a little better, but it still doesn't sound quite right. "Machine learning using neural networks" or something sounds better, imo.
02:49:57 <tswett> "Coordinates" is a bit of humor, I take it?
02:51:07 <tswett> I'll let you decide whether or not that's appropriate here.
02:51:09 <tswett> "Unit testing" under Techniques and Methodologies shouldn't be capitalized unless you're capitalizing all the other words too.
02:51:49 <tswett> Likewise, "Object-Oriented Design" if you're capitalizing everything, "Object-oriented design" if you're not.
02:56:16 <tswett> Might be nice to group the "Languages and Technologies" by what they are. "Programming languages: PHP, Python, Perl, Ruby, C, C++, Java, C#, Visual Basic, Scheme. Special-purpose languages: LaTeX, HTML5, CSS. Software: MySQL, Unity3D, Apache."
02:58:21 <tswett> All right, I'm gonna go to bed.
02:58:57 <HackEgo> apl/APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
02:59:29 <HackEgo> monoids/Monoids are the easy version of categories.
03:01:49 <HackEgo> welcome.bork/welcome.bork Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: http://isulungs.oorg/veeki/Meeen_Pege-a. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon irc.del.net.)
03:02:27 <oren\n> `le/rn CSV/CSV stands for Cat Separated Values
03:03:31 <oren\n> `le/rn CSV/CSV猫stands猫for猫Cat猫Separated猫Values
03:04:19 <HackEgo> U+1F408 CAT \ UTF-8: f0 9f 90 88 UTF-16BE: d83ddc08 Decimal: 🐈 \ 🐈 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
03:04:47 <shachaf> Unicode has a CAT codepoint. You should use that one instead.
03:05:08 <oren\n> Well good for you... nicode.
03:05:29 <HackEgo> [U+732B CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-732B]
03:05:42 <pikhq> Yes, but 猫, CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-732B means "cat".
03:07:14 <HackEgo> [U+732B CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-732B]
03:09:16 <shachaf> Is that the unified ideograph for "scow"?
03:09:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Rotary]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43218&oldid=42747 * 98.225.44.92 * (+17) /* About this specification */
03:11:43 <oren\n> Why could they not have put a rough approximation of the meaning in each ideogram's name?A?A?
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03:13:23 <pikhq> *One* reason is that a Unicode character's name is invariant, and they don't want to commit *that* solidly to a given approximation.
03:13:48 <pikhq> Another is that the specific semantics of a character vary based on both language and context.
03:14:02 <pikhq> Yet another is that not all individual ideograms have meaning by themselves.
03:14:13 <pikhq> Finally, not all individual ideograms have *currently known* meaning.
03:14:26 <pikhq> (and some of them, hilariously, are *known to be meaningless*)
03:14:26 <Deewiant> ais523: There are also a lot of other newer fingerprints Mycology doesn't test, but at the time that statement was probably correct.
03:14:59 <oren\n> for the ones that do, then? I mean they put in the currently thought pronounciation for all those ancient writing characters
03:15:52 <oren\n> CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH CAT 732B
03:16:48 <pikhq> Anyways, they at least have the known information documented in the Unihan db.
03:23:02 <zzo38> What should be a HTTP response code used if authentication has been provided and is valid, but the user that has authenticated does not have permission to perform the current operation?
03:24:29 <pikhq> 401 is for "it would be permissible if you authenticate", 403 is for "you do not have this permission".
03:26:06 <zzo38> Well, it *might* be allowed if you reauthenticate with a different username/password, although the program doesn't know that, nor does the program know how the authentication system works; it only knows which user has authenticated.
03:28:35 <zzo38> Wikipedia says "Unlike a 401 Unauthorized response, authenticating will make no difference." However, it is unknown in my case whether or not authenticating will make a difference; it is only known that valid authentication has already been provided but that the specified user hasn't the correct permissions.
03:29:44 <zzo38> O, the actual "HTTP 403" page says that 403 also means "Authentication was provided, but the authenticated user is not permitted to perform the requested operation."
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04:00:22 <oren\n> Walpurgisnacht is apparently something other than just the strongest witch from Madoka
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04:05:55 <FireFly> Yes, it's a holiday celebrated last april
04:06:11 <FireFly> With bonfires, at least here
04:08:07 <FireFly> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walpurgis_Night I guess it's a north-european thing
04:08:22 <FireFly> Or perhaps more germanic, ish
04:09:01 <FireFly> "In the United States, Walpurgisnacht is one of the major holidays celebrated within LaVeyan Satanism and is the anniversary of the founding of the Church of Satan." ...
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04:12:44 <oren\n> The original political organization that became the Death Eaters in Harry Potter was called the Knights of Walpurgis
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04:51:17 <lambdabot> mroman said 17h 7m 22s ago: http://codepad.org/LA8kRBCM
04:51:34 <shachaf> oerjan: what was going on when i asked fizzie what's going on twh
04:53:26 <oerjan> ask me in a few hours when i've got through the logs hth
04:53:51 <shachaf> @ask oerjan what was going on
04:54:28 <shachaf> I assumed you wouldn't talk until you finished reading the logs.
04:54:35 <shachaf> I guess that might not be true.
04:56:03 <oerjan> how would i ever get around to talking then
04:56:30 <oerjan> searching for my own nick is the first thing i do.
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04:59:29 <oerjan> shachaf: often i procrastinate reading the logs by browsing something else hth
05:00:04 <oerjan> also, sometimes i skip them altogether after the nick search step. very tempting today.
05:00:07 <shachaf> i hope you realize that logreading is your duty hth
05:00:32 <shachaf> anyway just explain what's going on with wisdom/yo
05:00:52 <HackEgo> yo mama so fat, insert joke here
05:01:47 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
05:01:52 <HackEgo> yo mama so fat, insert joke here
05:02:04 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
05:02:11 <oerjan> shachaf: wtf are you doing
05:02:11 <HackEgo> cat: blah: No such file or directory
05:03:26 <FireFly> shachaf: I slept on and off, didn't really fall asleep properly I think
05:03:39 <shachaf> oerjan: i might ask HackEgo the same question
05:03:45 <FireFly> Now to figure out what your email is
05:03:52 <oerjan> shachaf: i have told Gregor about the `revert problems in /msg but both he and fizzie have been idle for days.
05:04:09 <shachaf> anyway the point of all this is that we thought revert was working and it wasn't hth
05:04:31 <FireFly> I find it impressive and a bit creepy that Google suggests "shachaf ben-tiki" if I enter "shachaf"
05:04:33 <pikhq> Gregor committed a few minutes ago.
05:05:25 <oren\n> I just scroll up to read what was said earlier
05:06:01 <oerjan> shachaf: _some_ reverts show up in the repository browser, others don't.
05:06:10 <oerjan> it's been that way for a while.
05:06:32 <shachaf> when you say they don't show up you mean they don't get committed at all, right?
05:06:41 <oren\n> it appears irssi saves about 1 day worth of stuff
05:06:50 <oerjan> shachaf: i've had a suspicion that it happens when the revert is of a file creation.
05:07:03 <oerjan> does this fit your examples?
05:07:52 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/overt //' wisdom/real
05:08:19 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
05:08:57 <oerjan> actually what i told Gregor about wasn't this, but that stupid error message, which is probably unrelated because `revert has been fishy for ages.
05:09:08 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
05:09:09 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
05:09:09 <myndzi> >\ c.c |\ /| | | |\ c.c /< | >\|/| c.c /<
05:09:46 <shachaf> FireFly: that's because of people like you hth
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05:10:39 <shachaf> FireFly: When I type "FireFly" into Google, it finds the television series, the restaurant, and the music festival.
05:10:58 <shachaf> Nothing about you or the insect.
05:11:12 <oren> what about the javascript debugger?
05:11:19 <oren> wait that's firebug
05:11:31 <FireFly> I've come to understand the TV series is p. popular
05:11:39 <FireFly> It's the most common source of mis-highlights
05:12:36 <oerjan> shachaf: i assume shachaf is a pretty rare name. is it in the bible anywhere?
05:12:50 <shachaf> there's a part that says you're not supposed to eat them
05:13:05 <oerjan> i mean as a human name hth
05:13:14 <FireFly> Good thing it doesn't forbid swatting them
05:13:14 <oerjan> or angel, i think those count too
05:15:54 <oren> really, you can't eat seagulls?
05:16:15 <oren> can you shoot them for eating your lunch?
05:16:33 <oerjan> is it because they're scavengers?
05:17:02 <shachaf> http://www.mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt0311.htm
05:17:14 <shachaf> leviticus 11:16 it looks like hth
05:17:58 <oerjan> wait you cannot eat camels?
05:18:33 * oerjan thinks the muslims didn't keep that part.
05:18:37 <oren> that is a lot of detestable kinds of birds?
05:19:28 <oren> and the gecko, and the land-crocodile, and the lizard, and the sand-lizard, and the chameleon.
05:20:10 <oren> I don't understand how that could be so prevalent as to need to make a rule about it...
05:20:36 <oren> but I agree that reptiles are probably not good eating
05:20:47 <oerjan> also they were not very good at counting insect legs
05:22:44 <oren> locusts are permissable, probably because they are still a famine food in many areas of africa
05:22:58 <oren> and were back then too
05:23:02 <shachaf> which part is about counting insect legs?
05:23:19 <oren> 21 Yet these may ye eat of all winged swarming things that go upon all fours, which have jointed legs above their feet, wherewith to leap upon the earth;
05:24:08 <oren> I dunno if the hebrew has the number four in it thoug
05:26:21 <oren> does that counts as a loophole allowing to eat all insects which have six legs?
05:26:48 <oren> not that anyone in their right minds would want to
05:27:26 <oerjan> your definition of "right mind" shows a certain cultural bias tdnh
05:27:46 <shachaf> i'm sure that's the topic of someone's thesis or something hth
05:28:19 <shachaf> https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/moses/two-missing-legs/
05:30:18 <HackEgo> croissont supplier/See misspellings of croissant
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05:42:37 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> there's not much point of doing a JAMH in Malbolge because it doesn't look visually different from any other Malbolge program <-- obviously a JAMH should somehow be surprisingly _readable_ hth
05:47:36 <FireFly> I don't think that's possible in Malbolge
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05:56:54 <oerjan> it would certainly take some effort.
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06:28:10 <izabera> just another malbolge hacker?
06:30:56 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
06:32:45 <shachaf> oerjan: am i `wisdom-spamming too much twh
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06:37:34 <oerjan> since you said twh, yes
06:38:31 <shachaf> i meant that truth would help hth
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07:48:16 <mroman> oerjan: just like you said: You can use flags to do if conditions.
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07:49:00 <mroman> that is, for additions/subtractions at least
07:49:04 <mroman> but you don't need more for TCness
07:53:59 <mroman> although that doesn't prove that BF with do-while loops is TC
08:20:07 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/$/./' wisdom/'off by two'
08:20:22 <HackEgo> An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction.
08:25:19 <mroman> how can I do many $ optional ... in parsec?
08:25:29 <mroman> many can't accept a Parser that accepts an empty String
08:25:35 <mroman> many $ optional comment
08:25:41 <mroman> That's just many $ comment
08:27:47 <mroman> but that still doesn't fix it
08:30:03 <oerjan> does comment itself accept an empty string
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08:32:10 <oerjan> skipSpaces >> many (comment <* skipSpaces)
08:32:14 <mroman> http://codepad.org/EQaIActa
08:32:19 <mroman> It still doesn't accept leading spaces :(
08:32:42 <mroman> now leading spaces causes it to want a comment
08:33:45 <oerjan> ok basic rule on how to do space skipping in a free-form language in parsec: have _one_ skipSpaces at the start of the whole file parse, and one after every token.
08:34:31 <oerjan> (where a token is something like an identifier)
08:35:17 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: parsec is in haskell
08:36:08 <oerjan> parsing some new language, i guess
08:36:17 <oerjan> that's what parsec is usually used for
08:38:01 <Walpurgisnacht> I know that parsec is in haskell I was wondering what he was trying to parse
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08:39:14 <oerjan> i recall mroman is making a new golfing language, don't know if it's that
08:40:18 <oerjan> it has some weird parsing rules, with both infix and postfix operators
08:40:32 <mroman> oerjan: That was just an experiment :)
08:40:39 <mroman> But, yes it had weird parse rules
08:41:41 <mroman> It's supposed to be that way
08:41:57 <mroman> Instead of having parentheses in ((5+1)+3) you use a prefix comma
08:42:16 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: we did some golfing over at http://golf.shinh.org/ last autumn but i think most of us got bored of it again
08:43:59 <oerjan> i tried haskell but henkma is too good for me to beat (except that one time)
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08:45:29 <oerjan> make the shortest program in a language that gives the given outputs for the given inputs
08:45:47 <mroman> http://codepad.org/2fJnZo4I
08:45:51 <mroman> ^- that's what I'm trying to parse
08:46:10 <oerjan> that site is very liberal on the definition of the task: it is allowed to completely ignore the task description and cheat, as long as you match input to output.
08:46:33 <oerjan> (mainly, that's all that is tested.)
08:46:38 <mroman> there's missing a decrement for $len but that doesn't matter for parsing purposes :)
08:46:54 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: was just looking at it
08:48:18 <oerjan> mroman: is this the all-loops-are-run-at-least-once language? it's a bit confusing to use while { } if so...
08:49:35 <oerjan> (in fact int-e also got too good for me to beat after a bit of warmup)
08:52:32 <oerjan> yes, see table at end of page
08:52:48 <oerjan> there's also a table for each language
08:53:05 <oerjan> (that someone has tried)
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08:55:23 <oerjan> i sense some trickiness in the details of that problem: why are the ___ lines unbroken on the top but not the bottom?
08:56:29 <oerjan> because you have to break when there's a | in there
08:56:55 <Walpurgisnacht> Are those the only languages supported for this problem
08:57:29 <oerjan> no, just the only ones anyone has tried to submit
08:57:38 <oerjan> there's a lot of supported languages
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08:59:16 <mroman> there are over 90 languages supported
08:59:38 <mroman> Making it probably the biggest golfing site out there
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09:01:32 <Walpurgisnacht> Does it just make an "endless" string or is it unsolvable
09:02:08 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: just that there's no deadline, also you never get to see the other solutions
09:02:15 <oerjan> (they're not even saved)
09:02:55 <oerjan> other than that, it's the same kind of challenge
09:03:13 <b_jonas> mroman: no, probably not the biggest, because golf SE is pretty large these days, and there are a few other big ones with fewer languages
09:03:25 <b_jonas> but it's certainly one of the biggest
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09:04:41 <mroman> there are "big" sites with just a few languages, yes.
09:05:02 <mroman> Shinh could do some visual and statistics update.
09:05:16 <mroman> and add disqus or something and it would be a very nice looking webpage :)
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09:08:03 <oerjan> mroman: i think anyone who makes a site like shinh has already decided to disagree with you hth
09:08:29 <oerjan> (i.e. no styling at all that i can see)
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09:10:36 <mroman> http://golf.shinh.org/site.css
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09:11:19 <FireFly> the stack exchange allows any language, but it doesn't actually verify anything automatically
09:12:04 <mroman> yeah and the SE site-mechanics aren't really any good for golfing.
09:12:06 <FireFly> It's just implicitly understood that either you use a well-known language with free implementations available, or you explain how your code works in-depth
09:12:14 <mroman> no verification, no size-measurement
09:12:31 <mroman> it's just a regular "forum board" where people post code
09:12:37 <mroman> it completely sucks for golfing imo.
09:13:00 <mroman> there's not even a well defined scoring system
09:13:08 <mroman> other than up/down votes afaik
09:13:23 <mroman> golfing is about short programs, not up/down votes
09:13:37 <FireFly> questions tagged as code-golf is about shortest program
09:13:52 <FireFly> there is a userscript to sort by shortest size
09:14:03 <FireFly> but yes, I agree that the platform isn't a good fit for the job
09:14:11 <mroman> Still. It's not a good platform for the job :)
09:14:46 <mroman> which is why I don't really like it.
09:15:50 <FireFly> It's about "programming puzzles and code golf", and the one hard rule is essentially that all questions need an objective winning criterion
09:16:16 <FireFly> When the criterion is votes, they call that a popularity contest
09:16:30 <FireFly> But yeah, some people dislike those questions a lot, and there aren't too many of them
09:16:32 <mroman> I don't even like SE comment system
09:17:12 <b_jonas> mroman: sure, and that's not even the biggest problem
09:17:26 <b_jonas> mroman: the comments are not searchable, and they're deliberately hard to use
09:17:37 <b_jonas> they're deliberately trying to limit comments to put content elsewhere
09:17:46 <FireFly> http://codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/35569/tweetable-mathematical-art is one of the popularity-contest puzzles I like (just to give an example of something that isn't code-golf but still enjoyable)
09:18:00 <FireFly> This one is more demoscene-esque, I guess
09:18:13 <mroman> https://www.mwforum.org/ <- so far one of the best forum software I've ever seen.
09:20:48 <mroman> https://www.mwforum.org/doc/Readme.html#features
09:22:56 <izabera> did you know that the british secret services have a website?
09:23:36 <izabera> with a stilish blurry jpg picture as their background
09:24:12 <mroman> I'd put a hypnotoad animated gif as a background
09:24:32 <izabera> that's not very british, is it?
09:32:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Oerjan * moved [[Damarok]] to [[Darmok]]: You have got to be fucking kidding me.
09:33:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43220&oldid=43219 * Oerjan * (+4) Sheesh
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09:40:39 <oerjan> <pikhq> What's next, no ehird? <-- erm if you've been noticing lately...
09:41:47 <oerjan> `le/rn øl/Øl, øl og mere øl.
09:42:36 <oerjan> as for øob, i've got nothing.
09:43:11 <FireFly> It was a nonsensical pun on ÖoB, or "överskottsbolaget"
09:43:28 <FireFly> but since we were doing ø's, well
09:44:55 <b_jonas> argh, stupid dns of the internal network doesn't work again
09:45:41 <FireFly> Shouldn't ideä be the proper spelling of "idea", going by the diaeresis-avoids-diphtong rule in english?
09:48:47 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
09:49:31 <oerjan> the thing is, it's not actually _english_ diphthongs you avoid, but latin ones hth
09:49:56 <oerjan> `hg cat wisdom/haskell
09:50:02 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'cat wisdom/haskell' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ diff
09:50:16 <oerjan> ``hg cat 'wisdom/haskell'
09:50:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `hg: not found
09:50:22 <oerjan> `` hg cat 'wisdom/haskell'
09:50:23 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
09:51:04 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*ö*: No such file or directory
09:51:23 <HackEgo> wisdom/døsthiswork \ wisdom/døsthiswørk \ wisdom/ø \ wisdom/øl \ wisdom/ørjan
09:51:52 <FireFly> Unless the sea level rises
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09:59:23 <mroman> `learn ĥäŝkéll is not what you were looking for. Try again.
09:59:27 <HackEgo> Learned 'ĥäŝkéll': ĥäŝkéll is not what you were looking for. Try again.
10:00:13 <mroman> (ĥ is pronounced like esperanto ĥ)
10:03:58 <mroman> (χæʃkell would be the correct pronunciation)
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10:13:40 <fizzie> `` unicode χ # as seen here
10:13:41 <HackEgo> U+03C7 GREEK SMALL LETTER CHI \ UTF-8: cf 87 UTF-16BE: 03c7 Decimal: χ \ χ (Χ) \ Uppercase: U+03A7 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
10:14:46 <fizzie> ("shächkell" sounds like some sort of a shachaf-promulgated Haskell fork.)
10:14:54 <FireFly> Annoyingly, "chi" is /ʃi/, isn't it?
10:15:35 <FireFly> At least in swedish I think..
10:15:57 <FireFly> Apparently it's /kaɪ/ in english, huh
10:16:12 <fizzie> I wouldn't have expected *that*.
10:17:04 <Taneb> FireFly, I try to begin it with the same consonant as loch
10:17:27 <mroman> the X-like is the ch, yes
10:17:49 <mroman> (the rough ch in german, or the regular ch in swiss german, we don't have the soft one)
10:17:51 <FireFly> Taneb: the name "chi" (for the letter)? Interesting
10:18:29 <mroman> swiss german speakers have some advantage when learning other languages :)
10:18:38 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't know about this email thing, but I'm not surprised it might have broken.
10:18:45 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't even remember how it worked.
10:18:45 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ stuff=$(echo "$1" | cut -d' ' -f2-) \ perl -i -p -e 's/\n/ /' "wisdom/$topic" \ echo "$stuff" >>"wisdom/$topic" \ echo -n "Learned '$topic': " \ cat "wisdom/$topic"
10:18:48 <Taneb> mroman, in that they live in a country with three other languages?
10:18:49 <mroman> we have three different r-sounds, two different ch-sounds
10:18:55 <mroman> a lot of nasal, non-nasal sounds
10:19:00 <mroman> like nasal o, non-nasal o
10:19:18 <mroman> voiceless, non-voiceless sounds
10:19:21 <oerjan> fizzie: do you know anything about HackEgo's `revert breakage?
10:19:29 <mroman> Taneb: and a lot of dialects, yes.
10:20:24 <mroman> so we know the difference between ʒ and ʃ etc.
10:20:37 <Taneb> Whereas I can speak: English. A little French and Italian.
10:20:40 <mroman> although english also has distinctions between voiceless and non-voiceless
10:20:48 <Taneb> (not much of either)
10:21:13 <mroman> Does english have d͡ʒ?
10:21:24 <fizzie> oerjan: I don't know anything about that either. I will try to have a look at both things this evening, if I manage.
10:22:32 <Taneb> mroman, I do not know IPA very well but is that the consonant in edge?
10:22:47 <FireFly> mroman: isn't that the j in jungle?
10:23:01 <oerjan> fizzie: i suspect one of the bugs might be as easy as doing a 'rm -r canary.orig' in the right place.
10:23:38 <oerjan> the older thing where it sometimes doesn't pick up changes, well...
10:25:19 <FireFly> I think that one is pretty common in english
10:27:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/a /an overt /' wisdom/real <-- what was that for?
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10:27:26 <mroman> workplace.stackexchange is weird
10:30:51 <HackEgo> sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published by Taneb in 1932, based on Taneb's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
10:31:03 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/s/S/' wisdom/sex
10:31:45 <Taneb> If it is all the same, I would rather sex not be a tanebvention
10:32:04 <oerjan> it does seem a little out of character.
10:33:10 <HackEgo> tanea/Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
10:33:45 <lambdabot> No instance for (Enum [Char]) arising from a use of ‘succ’
10:33:45 <lambdabot> In the expression: succ "fortresr"
10:34:03 <FireFly> oh, no instance for Enum a => Enum [a]
10:34:14 <Taneb> > "fortresr" & _last %~ succ
10:35:57 <oerjan> `learn Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
10:35:59 <HackEgo> Learned 'sex': Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
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10:52:31 <boily> hellørjan! Tanelle?
10:53:20 <olsner> were you thanking oerjan for quitting?
10:54:24 <boily> it's early in the morning. I'm not exactly cohérent yet.
10:54:48 <boily> @tell oerjan AAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I couldn't even hellørjan you properly.
10:55:08 <Taneb> olsner, for changing the wisdom
10:55:47 <olsner> I'm sort of relieved sex was not actually a tanebvention
10:57:20 <boily> still trying to Italian porthello Taneb. it's not easy.
10:58:12 <Taneb> Were it night-time, buonanottaneb?
10:58:38 <boily> yes, if this were the case.
10:59:12 <boily> Tanebuongiorno, perhaps?
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11:35:21 <boily> but for now, good tanebye!
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12:02:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kingofthenerdz3 * New user account
12:11:10 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, did you make sense of my nats yesterday?
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12:55:03 <mroman> Otherwise I'm not interested.
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13:38:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Crave * New user account
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13:51:17 * oren searches for an address. google tells him it's in another city.
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13:52:38 <oren> yahoo has the right one
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13:59:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[DNA-Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43221&oldid=41157 * Crave * (+92) Added := alternative to = to remove ambiguity
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14:02:07 <Taneb> Aaaaaah my connection is not doing well
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14:08:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:DNA-Sharp]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43222&oldid=33277 * Crave * (+400)
14:08:58 <mroman> coppro: Did you mean Nat?
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14:12:12 <Taneb> coppro, https://gist.github.com/Taneb/f2021eab65ba59aa3693
14:13:24 <mroman> Without looking I'm guessing it's some weird Haskell code with coerce and pure
14:14:30 <Taneb> It is weird Haskell code
14:14:42 <Taneb> But it's sensible weird Haskell code
14:14:55 <HackEgo> 768) <mroman> You can't quote me. \ 1139) <mroman_> Bike: I refuse to believe in bottom <Bike> ass is an urban legend \ 1218) <mroman_> Rule of thumb is that if I can understand it you're not using enough fancy stuff \ 1221) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
14:15:06 <mroman> You're not using enough fancy stuff.
14:15:29 <Taneb> Wow, I can't really understand what I am doing
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14:20:30 <Taneb> mroman, I think it's possible to make quotRem even more efficient with a fair amount of number theory
14:20:36 <Taneb> But I am not very good at number theory
14:22:33 <Taneb> I think this implementation of natural numbers could work quite well in some flavours of graph programming
14:29:52 <mroman> I don't know enough about number theory
14:37:56 <shachaf> oerjan: the reals are overt hth
14:41:37 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence.
14:44:46 <Jafet> Long division shouldn't be too difficult there
14:45:49 <Jafet> (It requires only (+), (-), and (<=).)
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14:51:13 <Jafet> (Well, the code didn't look like long division at first)
14:56:38 <Jafet> A problem with division is that the result can be exponentially larger than the inputs, eg. (2^(2n+1) + 1)/3
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16:47:49 <lambdabot> boily said 5h 53m 1s ago: AAAAAAAAAAAAAH! I couldn't even hellørjan you properly.
16:48:22 <HackEgo> a resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment
16:48:38 <oerjan> `learn A resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment.
16:48:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'resume': A resume is something that you use in order to end a pause in employment.
16:49:32 <shachaf> oerjan: overtness is a concept dual to compactness and you have been using it all your life hth
16:49:48 * oerjan currently resisting urge to proofread all of wisdom for punctuation and capitalization
16:50:23 <shachaf> `` egrep -rl '^[a-z]' wisdom | sed 's#wisdom/##'
16:50:24 <HackEgo> nooga \ drone \ cpressey \ lambdabot \ ant \ indentity function \ mroman_ \ guestbot \ burma \ bird \ oren \ fomething \ mojibake \ otp \ gaspasjo \ qdbformat \ impomatic \ ø \ mauke \ hovercraft \ bookwatching \ forty \ epsilon \ å \ ehird \ categorical product \ metasepia \ lystrosaurus \ cyberdrone \ php \ hipchat \ copumpkin \ ĥäŝkéll \ f
16:50:42 <oerjan> "As I already stated, all spaces are overt in classical topology."
16:50:45 <olsner> is gaspasjo the actual norwegian spelling?
16:50:51 <oerjan> shachaf: I SAID RESISTING
16:51:13 <shachaf> `` egrep -rl '^[a-z]' wisdom | sed 's#wisdom/##' | wc -l
16:51:42 <oerjan> olsner: probably gaspatsjo if we bothered to respell it
16:51:46 <shachaf> http://math.andrej.com/2012/10/03/am-i-a-constructive-mathematician/
16:51:54 <HackEgo> gaspasjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
16:52:26 <shachaf> "gaspasjo" is the norwegian spelling of gaspasjo hth
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16:52:40 <HackEgo> gaspatsjo is a norwegian soup, which died out due to a lack of hot summer days
16:52:55 <oerjan> apparently both are in wisdom...
16:53:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: well norwegian can be complicated
16:53:29 <oerjan> also the wisdom/ repository shows up on the first google hit page for "gaspatsjo" (with quotes), which is not reassuring
16:54:07 <oerjan> "gaspasjo" has slightly more hits (67 est.)
16:54:50 <oerjan> some of the hits are actual norwegian, but i take it it's not a word that's used enough for spelling to be localized
16:55:19 <b_jonas> can't it have two spellings?
16:57:19 <shachaf> oerjan: i heard that your country tried to invent poutine, but you had neither curds nor whey
16:57:50 <oerjan> shachaf: actually the latter is false i think, whey is what brunost is made of
16:58:19 <shachaf> ok but that ruins the pun tdnh
16:58:37 <oerjan> 's ok i didn't notice the pun anyway
16:59:54 <shachaf> it was just the last two words hth
17:00:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: well sure, but gaspatsjo would be the way to spell it maximally close to the spanish pronunciation
17:00:34 <oerjan> shachaf: hm "oh whey" puns are synchronistic for me today
17:02:01 <oerjan> as in, i saw one earlier, and then thought of it again when i passed by the protein pulver section of the grocery shop (seems to be all the whey)
17:03:57 <oerjan> around 1900, norwegian developed some rather consistent rules for how to nationalize spelling of french and latin words. too bad english won.
17:10:07 <b_jonas> oerjan: English won temporarily at least. It was latin for a while, then german, then russian, (with french going somewhat in parallel with the German and Russian) now English. Chinese might be the next, or not, it's hard to read the future.
17:14:12 <oerjan> from the norwegian point of view, it was never that much russian hth :)
17:15:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: russian won on this side of the Berlin wall, german and french and english on the other side, and the iron wall has led to a LOT of duplicated scientific research when people didn't know about existing results on the other side of the wall
17:15:44 <b_jonas> at least a little of that problem still remains, at least in some areas
17:16:53 <b_jonas> of course it's hard to be sure that's what's happened in any one case, because there are always duplicate results and difficult to find results even without the iron curtain
17:17:08 <b_jonas> (and triplicate results, which you clearly can't blame on JUST the iron curtain)
17:17:23 <b_jonas> but this is the general impression I have
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17:29:14 <oerjan> @tell boily shellocking
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18:04:29 <nys> immutable brainfuck
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18:11:58 <shachaf> zzo38: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/creativity/custom-card-creation/612057-generating-magic-cards-using-deep-recurrent-neural
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18:27:59 <Jafet> There have been quadruple results on the same side of the iron curtain
18:31:17 <Jafet> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner–Fischer_algorithm)
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19:22:08 <HackEgo> vorpal/Vorpal is really boring. Seriously, you have no idea.
19:22:20 <HackEgo> oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
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19:51:07 <HackEgo> quintopia/quintopia is our resident tl;dr generator.
19:51:23 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
19:51:33 <HackEgo> thyme/Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
19:51:38 <HackEgo> funciton/A funciton is the number of burgers to eat when I get one.
19:52:14 <FireFly> Not to be confused with a fukcton
19:52:24 <shachaf> FireFly: did you get stuck in snakebird twh
19:52:57 <FireFly> yes until I got stuck in a car travelling 700km south tdnh
19:53:39 <shachaf> i thought you said 700km/h
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19:54:14 <FireFly> No, although Koenigsegg did something crazy recently
19:54:47 <shachaf> what do you think of the fact that distances and speeds are measured in miles and miles/h here
19:55:12 <shachaf> the extra confusing part is that i only learned about distances and speeds after i moved here
19:55:17 <shachaf> so i think in celsius but also in miles tdnh
19:55:31 <FireFly> we tend to measure distance in mil here (1 mil = 10 km)
19:55:43 <FireFly> sorry to add to the confusion
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19:56:28 <FireFly> (due to hysterical raisins)
19:57:29 <shachaf> there's no good name for miles per hour anyway
19:57:37 <shachaf> in hebrew km/h is called "kamash" which is a good name
19:57:44 <shachaf> hebrew acronyms are too good
19:57:53 <shachaf> yes, you can convert with fibonacci numbers
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19:58:41 <HackEgo> le/rn/le/rn makes creating wisdom entries manually a thing of the past.
19:58:43 <pikhq> Kinda a shame there aren't more roads in the US signed metric.
19:59:09 <shachaf> you know what else is scow?
19:59:18 <shachaf> measuring gasoline consumption in miles per gallon
19:59:29 <pikhq> FireFly: http://www.unicode.org/Public/MAPPINGS/VENDORS/MICSFT/WINDOWS/CP932.TXT
19:59:30 <shachaf> FireFly: presumably "has signs that use metric measurements"
19:59:34 <pikhq> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Metric_Interstate_19_cropped.jpg
20:00:04 <FireFly> shachaf: that makes more sense than two's complement signs
20:01:19 <pikhq> The really confusing thing is probably the parts of the country with weird mixes.
20:01:24 <FireFly> pikhq: so, using metric units?
20:01:41 <pikhq> For instance, apparently Puerto Rico uses metric units for mile markers and distances, but imperial for speed limits.
20:02:08 <pikhq> And liters for gasoline.
20:02:32 <pikhq> They might be the only place that would like to know miles per liter.
20:03:39 <pikhq> For extra fun (though nobody to my knowledge does this), apparently a car may have its spedometer and odometer in metric only.
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20:09:09 <coppro> pretty sure that's legal in the USA
20:11:17 <olsner> pikhq: or do they use liter per 100 miles?
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20:17:07 <pikhq> coppro: That's what I was saying. It is explicitly legal.
20:17:39 <coppro> pikhq: meant to say Canada
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20:20:45 <HackEgo> Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
20:21:44 <tswett> `run sed -i -e "s/extensive/the author's extensive/" wisdom/sex
20:21:48 <HackEgo> Sex is a board game which originated in Britain in the 1870s before spreading throughout Europe in the 1890s. Sex was introduced to the rest of the world by a book, "The Complete Guide to Sex", written and published in 1932, based on the author's extensive experience with a wide variety of forms of European sex.
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20:30:28 <b_jonas> nice! spam in Serbian again
20:30:35 <b_jonas> I really get spam in so many different languages
20:31:03 <J_Arcane> http://yarchive.net/comp/polyglot.html
20:31:33 <b_jonas> I mean sure, the spammers won't know what language to write me, and I won't tell them, so it's not surprising, but it's changed in these last five years
20:31:43 <b_jonas> in the old days all the spam was English or Chinese only
20:33:07 <b_jonas> no, each spam in one specific language, not one spam that works in many languages. or maybe there are spams in many language but I don't execute their fancy javascript that makes that work.
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20:59:24 <HackEgo> myndzi/myndzi keeps us all on our feet
20:59:33 <HackEgo> monqy/The friendship monqy is an ancient Chinese mystery; ask itidus21 for details.
20:59:38 <HackEgo> thausiblee/A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
20:59:44 <HackEgo> fternoon/Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
21:00:29 <HackEgo> fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
21:01:07 <HackEgo> procrastination/The Procrastination is destined to rule the world... right after watching this last funny cat clip on youtube.
21:01:13 <HackEgo> norway/Norway is the suburb capital of Sweden. It's where the Nobel Peace Prize is announced.
21:01:21 <HackEgo> rdococ rdococlikestomakelanguageslikethis/rdococ RDOCOCLIKESTOMAKELANGUAGESLIKETHIS
21:01:28 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/norway
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21:10:23 <oren> i'm back from a very long interview
21:11:08 <b_jonas> oren: good, what was it like, and which side were you?
21:12:41 <oren> I was being interviewed, and I talked to three engineers, two Directors, and the CTO. They asked me to solve all kinds of programming problems
21:13:28 <oren> Including "reverse the words in a string, in place, without reversing the letters"
21:14:17 <pikhq> Hmm. That's actually a slightly tricky version of that.
21:14:38 <oren> The directors and the CTO wer talking to me by google hangouts
21:15:28 <oren> I'll tell you my solution: reverse the whole string, then find each word and reverse it
21:16:00 <zzo38> That is what I thought too
21:16:52 <zzo38> Another alternative is to just do both at the same time
21:17:08 <pikhq> I was initially thinking of trying to swap words in place, but that's probably a non-starter.
21:17:14 <b_jonas> and then you have to reverse each delimiter between the words as well
21:17:37 <oren> I initially tried doing that, but it ended up being O(N^3)
21:17:40 <b_jonas> so yes, two pass is probably the easiest
21:18:10 <oren> or maybe O(N^2), at least two loop levels anyway
21:18:21 <pikhq> it might be possible to get it faster (by a constant factor) with some temporary storage.
21:18:54 <pikhq> But I think that's your best approach overall.
21:19:52 <zzo38> How much money do you want to create a proxy server that accesses Wikipedia and then returns it in plaintext (with http:// and not https://)?
21:20:08 <zzo38> (And it has to be public)
21:20:30 <pikhq> I'd prefer writing a high-quality and simple SSL lib.
21:20:53 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not going to host public proxies like that, no.
21:21:19 <oren> Is it possible to implement SSL faster if you're only doing it because the other side is?
21:21:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: why is the api not accessible in http still?
21:21:29 <b_jonas> even if https is the default
21:21:35 <zzo38> I don't know, they refuse to fix it
21:21:38 <pikhq> oren: Not if you are trying to be reasonable.
21:21:54 <pikhq> oren: You can implement SSL without ciphers, but no server *should* be doing it.
21:21:54 <zzo38> Even writing plain HTTP requests on port 443 fails with a 400 error.
21:21:57 <oren> IOW simplify the SSL at the cost of your own security
21:21:58 <b_jonas> zzo38: I mean, for just reading, you don't even have to send login cookies
21:22:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, they're on port 80 probably
21:22:25 <zzo38> If I send a request on port 80 it tries to redirect to HTTPS
21:22:32 <pikhq> oren: The funny thing is, you can simplify SSL better at the cost of not working with insecurity. :)
21:22:49 <pikhq> The secure cipher suites are frankly not that complicated.
21:23:01 <b_jonas> I mean, if you wanted to edit or do other things that require a login, maybe
21:23:09 <pikhq> OpenSSL is punishing itself by being very poorly designed.
21:23:15 <HackEgo> scotland/<Phantom_Hoover> it's that place where they all wear kilts and chase haggises around whilst warding off the loch ness monster with bagpipes
21:23:29 <HackEgo> ant/ants are animals too hth
21:23:33 <zzo38> I want insecure connection even for writing though.
21:23:43 <pikhq> And dealing with some crazy, crazy OSes.
21:23:59 <zzo38> But I would prefer digest authentication and PUT rather than using forms and cookies.
21:24:04 <pikhq> (who gives a shit about OpenVMS's bizarre problems with argv? Fix your damned compiler!)
21:24:10 <b_jonas> hmm, indeed it seems to redirect to https by default
21:24:25 <b_jonas> let me see if there's some easy way to override that
21:24:37 <zzo38> No matter what header I add I cannot turn that off; I tried.
21:24:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, I'd just like to see it for myself still
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21:30:17 <zzo38> If you really want security, you should be using keys agreed in person, where the client requires the key too as well as the server, and the key consist of a number displayed on a security card with constantly changing numbers, and the user's password, combined together. And you have to avoid HTML and CSS, and require a command-line interface with ANSI-stripping.
21:31:11 <oren> if you really want security, just phyiscially isolate the data
21:32:20 <zzo38> You have to avoid root certificates too, since that can be tampered with.
21:32:26 <oren> have an armed courier carry the data on an sd card.
21:33:38 <zzo38> Or a DVD encrypted with a one-time-pad
21:35:36 <zzo38> It isn't only data security though; there is also software security issue. That's why you have to avoid HTML. If you have a color display, make the interactive terminal session with the server in a different color than the operating system's command-line, and use ANSI-stripping to force it.
21:38:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: apparently they deliberately made HTTPS mandatory for accessing, with no way to force HTTP
21:38:12 <b_jonas> or at least https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/HTTPS claism so
21:38:26 <zzo38> Yes, and they won't fix it
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21:40:21 <b_jonas> this means it's not just a matter of choosing the right hostname or some other trivial option to revert to http explicitly
21:40:41 <b_jonas> I guess you'll probably have to use it with https
21:41:17 <b_jonas> sure, a proxy is possible, and you could run one, but I definitely won't run a _public_ one
21:42:02 <zzo38> Even if you get paid one million dollars?
21:42:16 <zzo38> (Or the equivalent for the currency wherever you are)
21:42:38 <b_jonas> dunno, I'd investigate further if there was a serious offer for that. one million dollars for running the proxy for how long? I can't guarantee such a thing indefinitely
21:43:13 <zzo38> For as long as Wikipedia forces HTTPS
21:43:34 <b_jonas> I definitely can't do that _alone_. I might die before that ends.
21:44:00 <b_jonas> and I'm not good at setting up companies, that's not really my task
21:45:45 <b_jonas> this is silly, the reasons they give for no opt-out are silly, they cover only some mechanisms for opt-out, but not all reasonable mechanisms
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21:51:12 <zzo38> I don't see how plain HTTP connections on port 443 would be much problem for them, even if plain HTTP connections on port 80 can be a problem. A different set of cookies can be used too (since you can specify which cookies are for secure connections only)
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21:57:45 <lambdabot> CYUL 182100Z 17007KT 160V240 30SM SCT050TCU BKN150 BKN240 27/18 A2978 RMK TCU4AC1CI1 SLP085 DENSITY ALT 1600FT
21:58:26 <lambdabot> ESSL 182150Z 01002KT 9999 -SHRA FEW007CB SCT021 BKN035 11/11 Q1002
22:00:23 <boily> hellolsner. quite humid?
22:00:30 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 31m 17s ago: shellocking
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22:15:47 <olsner> boily: I think it's raining
22:16:16 <olsner> I might have gotten the metar of somewhere else entirely though
22:23:58 <boily> all metars are somewhere else. it's just that some are more elsewhere than others.
22:34:00 * pikhq now just has to wait for an offer letter.
22:35:25 <shachaf> Is there nothing more beyond that?
22:35:48 <pikhq> Well, there *is*. I need to talk with relocation team to discuss relocation options, I need to move, so on.
22:36:18 <shachaf> you should ask them for more money hth
22:36:22 <shachaf> or at least i should have done that
22:36:56 <shachaf> or maybe you're past all that nonsense
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23:36:52 <boily> qqqqqqqqqqqqqqqqquinthellopia.
23:37:08 <boily> (how does one go about pronouncing 'qqqqqqqqqqq'?)
23:44:08 <pikhq> Imma movin' to California.
23:44:48 <boily> pikhq: you're unbalancing the chännel hth
23:46:01 <fowl> Google told me to write more java. I said I'm not that desperate yet :<
23:46:16 <pikhq> Who said anything about Java?
23:46:41 <boily> fellowl. Java is fine.
23:47:02 <zzo38> Is there the MIME type for "ASCII record format"?
23:47:19 <fowl> I'm sure #esoteric loves java, wouldn't surprise me
23:47:26 <quintopia> give me a plug at google. maybe theyd hire me this time
23:47:27 <boily> hezzo38. record, as with GS/RS/US/FS?
23:47:50 <quintopia> at the very least they may give me another free trip to cali
23:47:52 <boily> hmm... I wouldn't think so, but it'd be quite useful.
23:48:00 <boily> zzo38: perhaps x-vendor/x-record?
23:48:02 <pikhq> zzo38: text/plain?
23:48:31 <boily> pikhq: pikhelloq, before I forget I hadn't porhelloed you.
23:48:33 <zzo38> pikhq: It isn't really plain text though, it is split into records and stuff like that
23:48:43 <pikhq> Or maybe text/vnd.ascii
23:49:11 <pikhq> text/vnd.ascii-record?
23:49:20 <boily> it's ASCII, but it's... more than ASCII, kwim?
23:49:36 <zzo38> It is ASCII, but it isn't plain text.
23:49:42 <pikhq> Nah, it's 100% ASCII it's just using ASCII control characters that aren't used much.
23:49:54 <pikhq> It's using ASCII for the purpose of storing records.
23:50:00 <boily> text/swamp? text/forest?
23:50:20 <pikhq> CSV would be the more "standard" way of doing this, mind you.
23:50:38 <zzo38> I don't really like CSV though
23:51:10 <zzo38> Also it fails if the data contains line breaks and so on; ASCII records format is probably going to be simpler
23:51:25 <pikhq> CSV can represent that if you implement it correctly.
23:51:36 <pikhq> But, yeah, CSV does kinda suck.
23:52:47 <zzo38> Still, I thought, "vnd." means vendor specific and it isn't really vendor-specific but maybe "text/x-ascii" should be used I don't know
23:52:54 <pikhq> The more obvious means of representing records in ASCII is, of course, using unit seperator (U+001F) and record seperator (U+001E), with escape (U+001B) to escape instances of those bytes in the record.
23:53:12 <pikhq> (as well as itself, of course)
23:56:15 <zzo38> I would use DLE to escape instances of those in the data rather than ESC, I think
00:00:42 <zzo38> DLE = Data Link Escape; Cause the following octets to be interpreted as raw data, not as control codes or graphic characters. Returning to normal usage would be implementation dependent.
00:06:12 <zzo38> Soon the government is going to use preloaded HSTS to spy on people.
00:08:28 <pikhq> So DLE escapes the next octet.
00:08:49 <pikhq> Has the especially nice property that your control codes are essentially unused.
00:09:53 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, that's much of the reasoning too, that I have.
00:10:12 <pikhq> While ESC isn't used *much*, it at least is used *at all*.
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00:40:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Kingofthenerdz3]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43223 * Kingofthenerdz3 * (+16) Created page with "Nothing for now."
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01:30:50 <zzo38> Do you think this is OK designing project management system? http://sprunge.us/OZPW
01:31:48 <coppro> what is the purpose of the dummy?
01:32:36 <zzo38> To force SQLite to create a SHARED lock on the database. Normally, locks are deferred; you can create an immediate lock on the database but this is only for writing, not possible for reading.
01:33:09 <coppro> I've thought about similar stuff for postgres
01:33:28 <coppro> the combination of linear and nonlinear permissions seems strange
01:33:41 <coppro> especially because the version permissions are in increments of 50
01:44:47 <zzo38> That's just in case other stuff needs to be added later on, although I could use bits instead I suppose
01:59:18 <coppro> zzo38: why use Julian dates rather than Unix timestamps?
02:02:48 <oren> maybe the thing is 32 bits?
02:35:47 <zzo38> coppro: SQLite uses Julian dates normally, that's why
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02:51:12 <zzo38> What is the duration of the sun minus the hyposinute multiplied by the square root of a circle without any area plus the meaning of life minus 31?
03:28:37 <zzo38> That is a title of one Hero Heart puzzle I made. Other titles are "Painting the roses^Whearts red", "SUPERMAN IS DEAD Heartland!", "I do not like this word 'bomb'", "Let's throw grenades at each other!", "What Happens When You Have Too Much Money", "Generating solutions of Einstein's field equations by typing mistakes", "Oops! How are you supposed to play Hero Hearts if the hearts are upside-down?", etc.
03:39:32 <zzo38> The puzzles themself are strange too; in one puzzle it is necessary to throw a grenade at an empty field, in another it is necessary to throw a grenade into the water (resulting in a message "That was a waste of a good grenade! Who taught you how to throw a grenade?"), in another level it is necessary to hit a heart with a missile (resulting in a message "Now that you have so smartly blown up that heart, it is impossible to solve this level. Sorry!"
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03:42:05 <zzo38> The messages themself are important in this case; if the rules of the game were modified to supporess these messages then the level would be impossible to solve.
03:42:41 <zzo38> When you do Magic: the Gathering, we also have to do stuff even more strange than that!
03:44:21 <zzo38> Do you like to make up any Magic: the Puzzling, please?
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04:37:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ye Olde Alchemist]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43224 * Kingofthenerdz3 * (+1701) Created page with "Ye Olde Alchemist is a esolang by [[User:Kingofthenerdz3]].It is still an idea in development.Programs are are ancient alchemical recipes.It is influenced by Chef. ==How it ..."
04:38:43 <zzo38> Is there any way to disable HSTS in clients that support it other than editing the executable file to change the name of the header into one that isn't a header name it is actually capable of receiving?
04:39:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Kingofthenerdz3 * moved [[Ye Olde Alchemist]] to [[Esolang:Ye Olde Alchemist]]
04:39:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move_redir * Kingofthenerdz3 * moved [[Esolang:Ye Olde Alchemist]] to [[Ye Olde Alchemist]] over redirect
04:39:51 <zzo38> There are several problems with HSTS, including privacy issues.
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04:57:45 <Sgeo> zzo38, any more detail?
04:58:20 <Sgeo> Well, I get the point about the privacy issue I think
04:58:46 <Sgeo> Can make arbitrary domains that you set HSTS or not on and that stores a bit per domain, right?
04:58:54 <zzo38> Yes, that is a part of it
04:59:30 <zzo38> But you can also use the expiry times to do stuff
05:00:08 <zzo38> It also prevents you from manually overriding, from defining your own proxies that would intercept it, and other problems
05:00:19 <zzo38> HSTS is just a bad design in general.
05:23:15 <zzo38> A lot of people know neither good security nor good software design. Some hotels have elevators that you need a keycard, in order to prevent thieves from coming in, but the actual effect is the opposite; they can come in just fine if someone else is in, or use the stairs, or steal someone's keycard and find their room much more easily than if the elevator did not require a keycard.
05:26:46 <zzo38> Web-browser software is also, just way too complicated to be any good.
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05:43:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: agreed, DLE (= control-P) makes more sense to escape the next char, it's already used as such in some cases
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05:44:06 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes I know that some programs use that already
06:06:37 <Sgeo> I think locally installed certificates can override HSTS
06:07:13 <Sgeo> If not, at least Chrome lets you delete HSTS entries
06:07:31 <zzo38> I saw that, but it says you can't delete preloaded entries
06:08:40 <Sgeo> At work tomorrow I might try intercepting Google with Charles and see what happens
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06:08:47 <Sgeo> Don't have Charles on this machine
06:09:02 <zzo38> You also can't disable it, either for certain domains or for everything. Better would be in a kind of about:config stuff you can specify the default HSTS mode (force on, force off, use headers, try insecure), and for each domain you can also define the HSTS modes.
06:09:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: but the problem here is not the HSTS, it's that the https is enforced on server side
06:09:53 <Sgeo> b_jonas, in a sane world, sure
06:09:54 <b_jonas> with apparently no specific way to overrid it
06:09:55 <zzo38> Yes, for Wikipedia and other things there is that too, but HSTS can still cause problems too whether or not that is the case.
06:10:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, it might cause problems in other cases
06:10:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: so I understand why you say it's bad design, but why can't you still access wikipedia with https?
06:11:04 <zzo38> I can, sometimes. Sometimes it doesn't work though.
06:11:21 <b_jonas> I thought you'd say something more specific
06:11:48 <zzo38> Even for servers that only work on HTTPS, the HSTS can still stop certain other things you might want to do for debugging or anything else, from working too.
06:12:43 <zzo38> Also the forced HTTPS prevents me from doing packet inspection or connecting from a client that doesn't use HTTPS.
06:13:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you use a local (private) proxy then?
06:14:19 <zzo38> I don't even know how to configure Mozilla to use plain HTTP on a proxy when https:// is specified.
06:14:47 <zzo38> But another reason I cannot use a local proxy is due to the mixed up clock; even if I try to fix it, it gets mixed up.
06:15:23 <b_jonas> I see https, but what's "mixed up clock"?
06:15:23 <zzo38> And my computer isn't particularly powerful enough either.
06:15:55 <zzo38> I mean the RTC in my computer seems to run too slowly.
06:15:57 <b_jonas> it needn't be on exactly the same computer, it could be on another computer on the lan with fast connection between the two
06:16:23 <b_jonas> um, but how is the clock a problem here?
06:16:47 <zzo38> I don't really know if the clock is a problem. But I thought it might be.
06:17:44 <b_jonas> my rtc clock usually runs a bit too fast, but it's not really a problem because I can correct it to enough precision by syncing to a time server on the internet
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06:19:24 <zzo38> I have several clocks, and synchronize them with the Weather Channel when they need to be set. I set the portable analog clock from the TV, the digital clock in my bedroom from the analog clock, and the computer from the digital clock.
06:20:06 <b_jonas> it's more a problem at the company, where the servers have the clocks going horribly wrong, sometimes several minutes off, and I don't have the authority to set their clocks to sync
06:20:39 <b_jonas> I used to sync to the radio in old times, but these days I sync to the internet
06:21:03 <b_jonas> (and then sync other clocks to the computer synced to the internet)
06:21:16 <b_jonas> (sometimes two levels deep)
06:21:26 <zzo38> I think there is a time signal on CBC radio, but I have no computer hardware to connect to radio or software to decode the time signal.
06:22:10 <b_jonas> I didn't decode by hardware, I just pressed enter at the beep or something
06:22:55 <zzo38> That is another way yes, slightly less precise but probably still good enough
06:23:20 <b_jonas> syncing to television doesn't sound like a good idea, because it sometimes has a second or two of delay, probably because it goes through satellite links
06:24:07 <zzo38> Yes, although the radio doesn't have the time signal all the time
06:24:22 <b_jonas> but it has it at predictable times
06:24:32 <zzo38> Yes, there is that, at least.
06:25:53 <zzo38> But also with television, the delay will be more with digital television than with analog, even. (I have both digital and analog, in different rooms. I tend to use the analog more, but other people in here mostly use the digital television.)
06:26:58 <b_jonas> I've seen a second of delay in analog, though probably some intermediate link was already digital
06:27:36 <b_jonas> and perhaps the time signal doesn't have that, only some programs that have to show live image
06:28:47 <b_jonas> I don't think we have analog television anymore. analog tv on radio waves has been discontinued a few years ago, and I don't think any of the cable ones are analog still.
06:29:15 <b_jonas> the satelite-based receivers are probably digital too
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06:30:23 <zzo38> A problem with a digital cable box is that you have to use their software and remote control (or a remote control with the same codes, but you can't add your own functions or remove existing functions). Also makes it difficult to use with a VCR.
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08:54:17 <HackEgo> CIRCUMFLEX ACCENT? ¯\(°_o)/¯
08:54:53 <Taneb> b_jonas, what are you trying to do
08:56:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: dunno, I just didn't understand why it didn't reply to `? ^
08:56:16 <HackEgo> bash: 0: command not found
08:56:25 <HackEgo> bash: 0: command not found
08:56:30 <Taneb> That is an odd error
08:57:02 <b_jonas> and the first file it finds with a matching name is 0
08:57:15 <Taneb> I did not know that
08:58:03 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
08:59:04 <HackEgo> 0 113500 :-( :-D Complaints MaFV Wierd a.o a.out bdsmreclist bin blah canary cat dc dog emoticons error.log etc factor faith fu head hello hello.c hi hours ibin index.html?dl=1812 interps le lib paste pref prefs py.py quines quotes random_elliott real script.py selflink share src twolines wisdom wisdom.pdf
08:59:28 <zzo38> I also fixed it so that you can use ``` to set the locale to the C locale, as a shortcut for that
09:00:04 <zzo38> Instead of having to type LC_COLLATE=C and whatever
09:01:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I usually run everything with a mixed locale: LC_CTYPE is set but every other category is C locale. this has even triggered a nasty libc bug that comes up only for mixed locale, but that was lots of years ago and fixed since.
09:02:45 <b_jonas> ideally I wish there was an environment variable to define the encoding of the terminal, without involving locales, but LC_CTYPE is a workaround that works in most of the cases. (I also wish terminal libraries accepted a _list_ of terminfo terminal names instead of just one.)
09:06:31 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching ``' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
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09:06:43 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; bash -c "$1"
09:07:27 <HackEgo> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
09:09:22 <b_jonas> ``` sed -i 's/;.*1"/; exec bash -c "$@"/' 'bin/``' # doesn't matter much, but can't hurt
09:09:32 <HackEgo> LANG=C \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="C" \ LC_NUMERIC="C" \ LC_TIME="C" \ LC_COLLATE="C" \ LC_MONETARY="C" \ LC_MESSAGES="C" \ LC_PAPER="C" \ LC_NAME="C" \ LC_ADDRESS="C" \ LC_TELEPHONE="C" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="C" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="C" \ LC_ALL=
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10:50:23 <b_jonas> oh! "libpq" is the database client library of PostgreSQL, right?
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13:36:15 <tswett> Neural net link of the day:
13:36:16 <tswett> http://www.youtube.com/u/182786/07/02/bin/oerjan/particular-lower-documentation-example
13:42:56 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/oerjan: line 1: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA:
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14:40:50 * Taneb really needs to learn Java
14:53:37 <HackEgo> export LANG=C; exec bash -c "$@"
14:53:43 <HackEgo> TIMEFORMAT='real: %lR, user: %lU, sys: %lS' exec bash -c -- "$1"
15:00:04 <HackEgo> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
15:00:49 <tswett> `` ln -s selflink bin/selflink
15:01:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: selflink: not found
15:01:10 <HackEgo> bash: bin/selflink: Too many levels of symbolic links
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16:27:40 <oren> I am now the proud owner of a framed paper, with "Oren Isaac Watson" in a cursive font, and "Honours Bachelor of Science with Distinction" in an uncial font.
16:28:27 <Taneb> oren, where is your alma mater?
16:28:52 <oren> University of Toronto
16:29:50 <Taneb> That's dangerously close to a university which almost shares its name with my university!
16:30:20 <oren> oh, right, York University. My dad works there
16:31:02 <Taneb> Yeah, I'm at University of York
16:31:09 <Taneb> Congrats, by the way :)
16:31:16 <Taneb> Thinking of doing a master's?
16:31:30 <oren> Not right away
16:32:38 <oren> However I do plan to the the JLPT 3 this winter
16:33:46 <pikhq> Japanese Language Proficiency Test.
16:34:05 <oren> there are 5 levels with 1 the highest
16:34:18 <Taneb> So, you start at -4?
16:34:42 <FreeFull> I'm at the University of Reading
16:34:50 <tswett> Insert "reading" pun here.
16:34:53 <pikhq> Serious question: should I accept this Google job offer?
16:35:11 <FreeFull> I'd much rather work for Mozilla than Google
16:35:27 <Taneb> FreeFull, one of my almost-friends from high school is at Reading!
16:35:32 <tswett> pikhq: well, is there a reason you wouldn't accept it?
16:35:46 <FreeFull> I've read Google's interview process is annoying
16:35:49 <Taneb> Wow, he is studying computer science!
16:35:50 <oren> then accept it.
16:36:13 <Taneb> FreeFull, unsure, either first or second
16:36:18 <Taneb> Chris "Easty" Eastwood
16:36:19 <pikhq> FreeFull: It is, but I'm on the other side of it.
16:37:40 <Taneb> pikhq, what would you be doing?
16:37:46 <FreeFull> Taneb: I don't recognise the name
16:37:48 <b_jonas> pikhq: try to find people you know who already work at Google. ask them what it's like.
16:37:50 <pikhq> Site reliability engineering.
16:38:02 <pikhq> The question was not actually serious.
16:38:09 <pikhq> And I already hit accept.
16:38:25 <Taneb> FreeFull, fair enough :)
16:38:50 <b_jonas> but you said... ok, good luck
16:39:14 <FreeFull> Taneb: Maybe if I saw a photo I could recognise him, but no guarantees
16:39:24 <pikhq> b_jonas: Was a joke.
16:41:20 <oren> pikhq: are you going to work in California or at a local site
16:41:31 <Taneb> FreeFull, PM'd you a photo
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17:29:28 <shachaf> pikhq: Do you know what you'll be SREing?
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18:07:18 <tswett> Ignoring the timestamps, this bit of autogenerated log seems pretty plausible:
18:07:26 <tswett> 07:52:41: <oerjan> wait, you can still control iteration in the discarded argument
18:07:27 <tswett> 00:13:13: <oerjan> darn
18:07:27 <tswett> 04:21:49: <oerjan> right
18:13:04 <tswett> Taneb: no, you start at -3.
18:22:36 <shachaf> You've already accepted it?
18:25:03 <pikhq> Uh, probably some time in the next couple weeks.
18:25:23 <pikhq> I talk with relocation people on Monday.
18:28:28 <int-e> Oh wow, Carlsen lost again.
18:29:01 <pikhq> I am gonna set up an appointment with an optometrist like, on my start date...
18:29:14 <coppro> pikhq: i.e. after the insurance kicks in?
18:29:25 <pikhq> I'm *pretty* sure my prescription is a bit off these days.
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18:40:08 <shachaf> http://andrej.com/fan.html
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19:14:38 <HackEgo> eurovision/Eurovision is the European way of looking at the world. For some reason it involves a lot of cheesy singing.
19:14:43 <HackEgo> cls/cls is a command to clear the screen.
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19:17:37 <b_jonas> that's why it's riddiculous
19:17:51 <int-e> is the typo intentional?
19:18:20 <b_jonas> there's barely any reliable historical data, but the historians make all kinds of crazy specific hypothesis from the very little data they can find
19:18:30 <b_jonas> int-e: no, I just can't spell
19:18:37 <int-e> . o O ( hmm, riddleculous )
19:19:43 <b_jonas> I can't pronounce either. if I could, "riddiculous" wouldn't make sense as the spelling
19:19:45 <int-e> of course that pun would've worked better if the answer had been "yes".
19:20:09 <b_jonas> apparently it's stressed on the second syllable
19:24:04 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah but no, not because of that
19:24:49 <b_jonas> first syllable is just my default assumption of basically every word because Hungarian has fixed stress on first syllable and I don't know enough about English pronunciation to have good guesses about stress
19:28:31 <oren> hmm... In English stress can actually make it a different word
19:28:54 <b_jonas> much rarely than just plain homonyms that are stressed the same too
19:29:02 <b_jonas> s/much rarely/much more rarely/
19:30:12 <oren> Also the word "defence" can be stressed either way
19:32:26 <HackEgo> york/York used to be known as Amsterdam.
19:33:11 <oren> And then there are various words, where the shift turns a verb into a noun
19:33:46 <oren> reCORD - verb REcord - noun
19:34:17 <oren> the two words are otherwise identical in pronounciation
19:34:56 <HackEgo> chuchichäschtli/chuchichäschtli is spoken as [ˈχʊχːiˌχæʃːtli]
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19:49:15 <b_jonas> oren: yeah, that's a quite famous example: "table", "record", "rebel" and a few other words change their hyphenation depending on their meaning, so they can't be automatically hyphenated
19:50:28 <b_jonas> I don't think Hungarian has any word that can change hyphenation, though in theory such a word could exist. That doesn't mean we have perfect hyphenation algorithms of course, because there are words it just doesn't know.
19:51:01 <b_jonas> Of course, the Hungarian hyphenation rules are very simple. There's about four rules total.
19:51:17 <b_jonas> Maybe five or something. depends on how you count.
19:55:18 <shachaf> The shachaf hyphenation rule is that when you run out of space in the line and you're in the middle of a word, you write a hyphen.
19:55:50 <b_jonas> Hmm, maybe there is such a word. There are four possible ambiguities I can think of that could result in such a word, though two seem very unlikely to actually cause an example.
19:56:52 <HackEgo> famicom/Famicom is a famous sitcom from Japan.
19:57:28 <int-e> shouldn't it be famikomu then...
19:57:34 <shachaf> zzo38: I thought Famicom was another name for the Nintendo Entertainment System.
19:58:15 <HackEgo> chess/Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
19:58:40 <shachaf> Oh, it sounds like I'm wrong.
20:01:31 <shachaf> Oh, it sounds like I'm wrong about being wrong.
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20:19:25 <rdococ> imagine a negative currency... &3 = -$3
20:20:22 <fowl> We could use negadollars to balance out inflation?
20:22:15 <rdococ> hmm... I wonder if that would work
20:22:53 <rdococ> because if both dollars and minus dollars become common, then.. would that balance out inflation ...?
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20:23:12 <rdococ> also, cant you just throw away a negadollar...?
20:23:43 <rdococ> "omg I have this -$10000 note... I'll just burn it."
20:24:25 <int-e> you'll throw the monetary system off balance
20:24:36 <int-e> so nothing to worry about
20:24:42 <fowl> Hmm yea I'm not an economizer
20:24:49 <fowl> Chaos should be the goal tho
20:30:29 <zzo38> shachaf: The Nintendo Entertainment System is a system which is very similar to Famicom (most programs for one will work also on the other with an adapter)
20:31:17 <pikhq> It's somewhat more easy to run NES games on a Famicom than vice versa.
20:32:17 <pikhq> The most notable likely issue is that some NES games will not read any controllers on the expansion port.
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20:39:48 <oren> wait, what if the negadollar was a cryptographically irrepudiatable?
20:41:12 <HackEgo> unicode/Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
20:41:28 <oren> e.g. it would be possible, using public information, to prove exactly how many negadollars someone has
20:41:44 <HackEgo> pdf/PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
20:42:49 <HackEgo> `/` is the prefix to greatness.
20:42:57 <HackEgo> glumgot/glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
20:43:31 <oren> thus, when I pay you, I can do so by transferring a negadollar from yourself to me; such that there is a public record that you have N less negadollars and I have N more
20:45:16 <shachaf> pikhq: You're moving from Indiana or someplace like that?
20:46:28 <oren> To encourage trade, the public record would increase by a continuously compounded say 2% per year
20:46:38 <pikhq> It's definitely a cross-country move.
20:46:43 <pikhq> And I'm not packed yet?
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20:50:11 <oren> (this is similar to the inflation of normal currencies, but it is more obvious)
20:50:23 <fowl> Hey I'm in misery, can you take me with you?
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20:58:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wisdome: not found
20:59:01 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
20:59:09 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
21:00:21 <J_Arcane> http://www.reddit.com/r/rust/comments/39wvrm/hodor_esolang_as_a_rust_macro/
21:01:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43229&oldid=43217 * 139.55.4.74 * (+14) Added Damarok
21:02:32 <rdococ> it just makes more moral sense if you use negative currency & as opposed to positive currency £ and $ and euro and stuff... having &3 means "you owe $3 to the world, until you can reach financial enlightenment." but having $3 means "the world owes you $3...? wait.. what?"
21:05:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43230 * Hppavilion1 * (+128) /* Well SORRY */ new section
21:06:46 <tswett> rdococ: I think theoretically, US dollars are a zero currency.
21:07:00 <tswett> It's impossible for anyone to actually own a US dollar. Therefore, the total number of US dollars in the world is zero.
21:07:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43231&oldid=43230 * Hppavilion1 * (+271) /* Well SORRY */
21:07:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43232&oldid=43231 * Hppavilion1 * (+13)
21:07:36 <tswett> If I have a dollar bill, that doesn't mean I own a dollar. It means that the Fed owes me a dollar. The dollar bill is worth $1 to me, and -$1 to the Fed.
21:07:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43233&oldid=43232 * Hppavilion1 * (-14)
21:07:52 <tswett> Likewise, if I have a dollar in my bank account, that doesn't mean I own a dollar; it means the bank owes me a dollar.
21:09:04 <zzo38> I think it has even been suggested that <BAL|FSV> = 0 can suggest this (when applied globally), although I have not thought of it that way
21:09:45 <tswett> The product of <BAL| and |FSB>, hth?
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21:10:10 <zzo38> The |FSV> is a financial state vector, which can vary, but must always remain orthogonal to <BAL| which is fixed
21:10:12 <shachaf> Presumably it's the inner product of BAL and FSV or something.
21:10:59 <rdococ> "Likewise, if I have a dollar in my bank account, that doesn't mean I own a dollar; it means the bank owes me a dollar." so why can't the bank just hold a negadollar?
21:11:41 <zzo38> It is short for "balance" and normally you might set the components for each account to 1 and others to 0 if using that basis state; but you could use other basis vectors instead if it helps, all that it is is that |FSV> is required to remain orthogonal to it.
21:11:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: That's what it is.
21:11:59 <b_jonas> what if money is locally conserved everywhere, but you can't define a globally sum of money invariant, sort of like energy in global relativity?
21:12:39 <zzo38> rdococ: Can't the bank already potentially store negative amounts in an account?
21:12:44 <b_jonas> as in, money isn't created or destroyed locally anywhere, but you can't just say that the totaly some of money is conserved in any meaningful sense
21:12:47 <zzo38> (If you are in debt)
21:13:08 <b_jonas> zzo38: sure it can, though that might be Bad for you
21:13:42 <zzo38> Yes, I know, you are in debt
21:14:57 <shachaf> Do you remember the Infocom game _Bureaucracy_?
21:15:02 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not you can define a globally sum of money invariant; I am not the government (and perhaps even the government doesn't know?)
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21:17:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43234&oldid=43220 * Hppavilion1 * (+712) Added some code
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21:18:54 <rdococ> but negative currency is more moral: if you have no $$$, nothing to sell and stuff, you can't start in life... but if you have no &&& in negative world, nothing to sell and stuff, you can start in life by buying stuff, and pay the world back later.
21:20:15 <zzo38> Note that |FSV> here is a vector of a projective space, it seems to me!
21:21:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43235&oldid=43234 * Hppavilion1 * (+4) Added extension
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21:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43236&oldid=43235 * Hppavilion1 * (+49) Changed code
21:24:33 <zzo38> hppavilion1: I don't know much right now, but I can see a few thing from what you have written
21:25:13 <zzo38> It is still hardly good enough yet, just one example that explain a few thing about it
21:25:49 <hppavilion1> I'm making it incrementally instead of all at once
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21:26:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43237&oldid=43236 * Hppavilion1 * (+122) Opened the language to public modification
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21:28:27 <rdococ> but wont the metaphors and mythologies themselves require verbs or verb like constructions?
21:29:57 <hppavilion1> The Metaphors and Mythologies can be defined in Darmok or another language
21:30:07 <hppavilion1> It's not a particuarly well-defined language
21:30:27 <hppavilion1> Ones defined in Darmok pretty much need to use ones defined in Non-Darmok
21:31:28 <rdococ> but what if they didnt...?
21:31:49 <rdococ> if we use a modification of English where verbs are not allowed...
21:32:00 <rdococ> can we come up with a sentence?
21:32:41 <hppavilion1> Barring one-word sentences like "No," which don't even completely count as sentences
21:33:19 <rdococ> I'm pretty sure stuff affirming stuff like "you are wrong." don't have verbs per-say, but other verb-like constructions...?
21:34:01 <hppavilion1> I'm pretty much certain some parts of darmok will need to be defined in another language
21:34:24 <hppavilion1> If it's written in python, for example, it will run a lexer on the line and pattern-match it
21:34:27 <rdococ> just use adjectives...?
21:34:35 <b_jonas> rdococ: see also http://scifi.stackexchange.com/q/13451/4918
21:34:42 <hppavilion1> The first pattern that matches corresponds to a python function
21:34:46 <rdococ> "loser you winner me" means "I get stuff from you!" or "you give stuff to me"
21:35:06 <rdococ> of course it's not an actual sentence per say, but it'll work
21:35:22 <rdococ> "loser you winner me" doesn't have any verbs in it.
21:36:08 <rdococ> like I could turn "you are wrong" into "wrong you"
21:37:12 <rdococ> "victim fred, thief samuel" for example
21:37:16 <hppavilion1> And these primitives will be used to define the official code you're allowed to use
21:38:24 <hppavilion1> So how would we define print in the TheBible/Jesus library?
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21:39:50 <hppavilion1> Now I'm stuck thinking about another language I'm designing
21:41:03 <rdococ> "loud 'Hello World!'" describing the string 'Hello World!' as loud...
21:41:38 <hppavilion1> It's the Purely Functional Imperative Language
21:41:55 <rdococ> hmm.. sounds interesting...wait... what...? this is...
21:42:02 <hppavilion1> It'd be a huge pain in the ass to implement
21:42:09 <rdococ> "functional imperative"????
21:42:38 <rdococ> oh... what paradigm would it be in?
21:42:49 <b_jonas> so the oath of Feanor wasn't public knowledge in middle-earth, and Galadriel could just choose to not tell about it to Melian and think she won't easily learn about it?
21:42:59 <hppavilion1> And that includes things like If statements and operators
21:43:03 <b_jonas> that's new to me. I should read the Silmarillon very carefully.
21:43:09 <b_jonas> because there's a lot I don't understand
21:43:11 <rdococ> thats just like my Table programming language though where everything is a table...
21:43:19 <b_jonas> how can something like that _not_ be public knowledge?
21:43:25 <rdococ> but Table, I think, if I remember correctly, was declarative
21:44:03 <rdococ> yeah.. and I don't think it was turing complete
21:45:06 <rdococ> show us... we're dieing to know
21:45:16 <oren> well I got the offer
21:45:52 <hppavilion1> https://github.com/TheGloriousRepublic/Purely-Functional-Imperative-Language/blob/master/doc/Lib/comp.pfil
21:46:32 <hppavilion1> So it'd be impossible to implement a language that's accept that library as-is
21:47:00 <rdococ> defining comparison operators... ha...! I could do that in haskell...
21:47:59 <rdococ> they look like they're all circularly defined to me - not that that's a problem of course
21:48:23 <hppavilion1> Some of the comparison operators had to be primitives for it to work, keep in mind
21:48:33 <hppavilion1> Unless there's a way I could do it without
21:48:41 <hppavilion1> In which case feel free to make a pull request
21:48:47 <rdococ> sorta maybe possibly but idk the language
21:49:10 <hppavilion1> You can define the equivalent of complex statements
21:49:51 <rdococ> how are numbers defined...? are they primitive too...?
21:49:54 <hppavilion1> It's something no other language I've ever used allowed
21:50:24 <hppavilion1> I just say functions because it's more accurate
21:50:25 <rdococ> numbers dont have to be primitive if youre willing to fudge around a little
21:50:55 <hppavilion1> This language is going to be a huge pain to implement if anyone ever decides to
21:51:04 <hppavilion1> It'll probably be done by PhD's if it ever is
21:51:11 <rdococ> in Haskell, you could define data Number = Zero | Succ number...
21:51:46 <rdococ> so 1 = succ(zero), 2 = succ(succ(zero))
21:52:34 <rdococ> and assuming you can do stuff like x.deccessor or decc(x) or something
21:53:10 <hppavilion1> If you were to make a library for this and pull request it that'd be AMAZING
21:53:18 <rdococ> function add(x, succ(y)) { return succ(add(x, y)) }
21:54:26 <rdococ> I wonder... you said they were technically classes...?
21:54:55 <hppavilion1> A number would be an instance of the number class. Metaphorically speaking
21:56:03 <rdococ> also, may I ask, is the if conditional a primitive?
21:56:22 <rdococ> you can forgo that too by modifying the boolean library
21:56:33 <rdococ> like Table was basically based on
21:56:48 <hppavilion1> I want this language to be as library-defined as possible
21:57:05 <rdococ> true.ifTrue(doStuff) would doStuff, false.ifTrue(doStuff) wouldn't...
21:57:44 <rdococ> so add the ifTrue functions to the boolean objects themselves, true.ifTrue would do whatever you give it, and false.ifTrue would be a NOP
21:58:54 <rdococ> well, you know objects have properties and methods, like account.desposit(123)?
21:59:34 <rdococ> false.ifTrue({ stuff }) is basically an object, false, with the method, ifTrue
22:00:14 <rdococ> so what would false() return anyway?
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22:00:42 <rdococ> True() and False() are builtins? srsly?
22:01:20 <hppavilion1> I was just going on the thought that they had to be
22:02:03 <rdococ> are there any objects with properties and methods? or is it literally all just functions?
22:02:26 <hppavilion1> Well the functions are technically callable objects
22:02:37 <hppavilion1> I'm building off of all the best languages I know of
22:02:53 <hppavilion1> Haskell, Python, the two good things in Javascript, etc.
22:03:22 <rdococ> do the objects have properties...?
22:03:31 <zzo38> Did you consider Forth and Lisp?
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22:03:41 <rdococ> like, how an account has a balance? or a person has an age?
22:04:19 <rdococ> or... you could do this! true(doStuff) directly instead of invoking a property of true
22:04:34 <rdococ> so true could be an identity/call function and false would be a NOP
22:04:36 <zzo38> Do you know any SQL though?
22:05:08 <rdococ> function true(stuff) { return stuff() }; function false(stuff) { return };
22:05:10 <hppavilion1> I've written a little, but I barely understand it
22:05:19 <hppavilion1> Keep in mind I use javascript function notation
22:05:37 <rdococ> ik... I'm using pseudo code at the moment. should I fork the project?
22:06:07 <zzo38> In JavaScript you can also make anonymous functions too, and overridable prototypes and generator functions and others
22:06:11 <hppavilion1> So then call foo if x is greater than five you would do "x>5(foo);" ?
22:06:55 <rdococ> if(true, stuff) = alias(true(stuff))
22:07:11 <zzo38> I think the syntax in JavaScript is too long though, and suggested stuff like @(x)(x) for the identity function
22:08:42 <hppavilion1> Wait, was that a suggestion you made regarding JS or was that a suggestion for me?
22:09:50 <hppavilion1> I'm trying to figure out what the syntax should be for denoting blocks of code to be used within functions
22:10:15 <rdococ> I'm trying to figure out how alias stuff works.
22:10:18 <hppavilion1> It can't be x = function(vars){code} because the {code} block would be interpreted as the definition
22:10:42 <zzo38> I do not quite understand what you are trying to do now?
22:10:57 <zzo38> What did you mea nabout "denoting blocks of code to be used within functions"?
22:11:13 <hppavilion1> PFIL allows you to define functions with code as an argument
22:11:32 <hppavilion1> SO a for loop could be defined in a library using while loops and incrementation, for example
22:11:46 <b_jonas> hppavilion1: like smalltalk or ruby?
22:11:50 <zzo38> O, well, I would still just make the contents of the loop body also as a function
22:12:41 <zzo38> Or else, use macros instead.
22:13:20 <b_jonas> hppavilion1: yes, that's a basic feature of smalltalk, and ruby has inherited it, though only with up to one block argument per call
22:14:32 <b_jonas> I don't know how it implements it
22:14:39 <b_jonas> that's… an implementation detail
22:17:20 <b_jonas> I know the _syntax_ in ruby. Or at least most of it. Are you asking about that?
22:17:44 <b_jonas> it's complicated, there's like ten syntax elements related to it
22:17:58 <b_jonas> so if you want me to explain most of it, you can ask
22:18:06 <b_jonas> I can't help with smalltalk though
22:18:10 <rdococ> the true and false method stuff I talked about is implemented into Smalltalk, but I think it bypasses that logic code straight to the compiler
22:18:32 <b_jonas> rdococ: sure, it makes sense to optimize booleans
22:19:07 <b_jonas> conditionals occur a lot, so doing an extra function call for each of them could be bad
22:19:18 <b_jonas> in a practical interpreter that is
22:20:12 <rdococ> but the method stuff is still in Smalltalk source code anyway
22:20:33 <hppavilion1> So the operators that can be used in function arguments are *(splat), **(double splat), & (code block), and maybe others
22:20:34 <b_jonas> sure, useful for lots of other functions, such as for iterating over some containers
22:21:31 <b_jonas> some details of smalltalk and ruby seem really esoteric to me actually
22:21:39 <b_jonas> probably only because I'm not used to them
22:21:52 <b_jonas> they might be natural for someone who's grown up on those languages
22:23:48 <hppavilion1> The order than you can put arguments into a function is foo(requiredargs..., optionalargs..., *listargs, **kwargs, &blockargs)
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22:25:35 <rdococ> my method of implementing gt requires equality... shoud that be primitive ...?
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22:26:03 <rdococ> equality seems more primitive than gt or lt...
22:26:14 <hppavilion1> I think I just made a travelling salesman problem for you
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22:31:06 <rdococ> it has to be logically consistent
22:31:15 <hppavilion1> I mean are you working on something that you'll pull request to me
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22:31:31 <hppavilion1> That's probably the worst way I could've phrased that :P
22:32:33 <rdococ> god damn it... my internet glitched and now I have to remake the changes I made in comp.pfil...
22:35:47 <rdococ> but there werent many so
22:36:35 <rdococ> ok I've made some changes. I'll keep making changes until I can remove another primitive...
22:37:04 <hppavilion1> You can push what you've done for now if it's consistent
22:37:21 <hppavilion1> And I'll just accept it and you can add the next bout right after I do it
22:37:35 <hppavilion1> I mostly just want to feel the march of progress :P
22:37:37 <rdococ> ok... let me check through to make sure
22:39:56 <rdococ> okay... you can check it too... tell me about anything youre unsure of
22:43:21 <rdococ> ignore the silly commit comment stuff... had to change addition and subtraction but it's fine now
22:45:09 <hppavilion1> I edited some stuff before I sent you the link to the repo
22:46:57 <rdococ> I'm just thinking, imagine if there was a way to substitute the function() and return() primitives for something that isn't... also, about set()...
22:48:01 <rdococ> function return(function, parameters, returnValue) { function(parameters) = returnValue }
22:48:10 <rdococ> if that even makes sense
22:49:06 <rdococ> if you get it... I'm setting the function value to stuff...
22:49:41 <rdococ> what did you change btw?
22:56:00 <hppavilion1> But I think I lost some progress on the docs
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22:58:47 <oren> *Din* *Din* 7 o clock and all's well
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22:59:12 <hppavilion1> (Just refreshed the page, hopefully didn't miss anything)
22:59:35 <oren> I don;t think so
23:00:34 <oren> Also you can read the logs for stuff you missed, unless you're like me and just keep Irssi running for weeks
23:01:04 <oren> then you can simply scroll up
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23:02:20 <oren> I started Irssi on June 1 and haven't signed off since
23:02:21 <rdococ> I'm going to fork it again...
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23:02:41 <zzo38> I don't know what does on the WebChat; I use my own IRC client because I don't like the others
23:03:19 <zzo38> Some webpages don't even link to the actual IRC and only to a webpage to chat on IRC; sometimes I have to view the source to figure out the proper address to connect to with my own IRC client.
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23:08:27 <rdococ> how could I implement function() so its not a primitive?
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23:10:44 <nys> first class macros?
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23:17:57 <rdococ> well I've been able to implement return()
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23:19:43 <rdococ> the return() stuff looks like a forked version of my unmerged code stuff and stuff
23:19:53 <rdococ> how do I delete my fork?
23:22:31 <hppavilion1> I think table could actually be useful for something
23:23:00 <hppavilion1> It's a language so esoteric it stops being just for fun and becomes a fully legit, useful lang
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23:25:29 <rdococ> its so esoteric, it's not esoteric anymore...
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23:25:47 <rdococ> but thats still cool and esoteric...
23:26:31 <hppavilion1> from ast import literal_eval def lex(script): return literal_eval('{'+script.replace('[', '{').replace(']', '}'))
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23:29:54 <rdococ> but I dont think table is turing complete
23:30:18 <rdococ> assuming lazy evaluation, table is at best, a finite state automaton... unless someone can disprove that...
23:30:33 <hppavilion1> I'll make it turing complete with modification to the standard
23:30:43 <rdococ> make Table turing complete?
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23:31:15 <rdococ> everything is possible
23:31:53 <rdococ> well, except for solving the halting problem
23:32:04 <rdococ> (which I think I can...)
23:32:08 <hppavilion1> Anything possible is possible if you're turing complete
23:32:40 <hppavilion1> >>> lex("{'walrus': {'man': 'person'}}") returns {'walrus': {'man': 'person'}}
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23:33:24 <rdococ> you know... I think I could solve the halting problem... convert the program into pseudo code and use some kind of machine to tell whether there are loops and stuff or not
23:33:50 <rdococ> while (true) { do stuff } obviously doesnt halt
23:34:00 <zzo38> It won't always work though, but you can sometimes figure out that it doesn't halt
23:34:31 <rdococ> it works for some programs
23:34:43 <hppavilion1> So naturally, I'm going to suggest a change for table instead of fixing it in my program :P
23:35:45 <hppavilion1> Instead of just a raw library name being used for import (which makes it not technically a table), make it do somthing like map "libraries" to a list of tables to use
23:36:19 <hppavilion1> Or even better, to make the list of libraries a table too
23:36:29 <hppavilion1> Make it a map mapping library names to booleans
23:39:06 <rdococ> instead of assigning properties to values...
23:39:13 <rdococ> just do sets of flags, like
23:39:42 <rdococ> 3 = [successor of 2, predeccessor of 4, derp, herp]
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23:51:22 <rdococ> I had an idea just like pfil once
23:51:28 <rdococ> where everything could be a function
23:56:27 <hppavilion1> Can I write an arithmetic library for Table and add it to the esolangs page?
00:02:05 <zzo38> I expect it should be OK to do so
00:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43238&oldid=43044 * Hppavilion1 * (+111) Added arithmetic library
00:08:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43239&oldid=43238 * Hppavilion1 * (-1) Fixed comment
00:11:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43240&oldid=43239 * Hppavilion1 * (+70) Fixed addition to use predecessor, added multiplication
00:13:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43241&oldid=43240 * Hppavilion1 * (+109)
00:15:47 <hppavilion1> What'd be the proper way to reference the arguments for a function in Table?
00:15:49 <rdococ> I was gonna create something like pfil
00:16:11 <rdococ> there arent any functions in Table, so there are no arguments and that is why it isnt turing complete
00:16:44 <hppavilion1> I thought that the setup in the first table program was functions
00:16:59 <hppavilion1> Like, after defining "and" you could use and in a following function
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00:17:44 <rdococ> I had the idea of making a function version, but itd be a lot like pfil
00:18:15 <hppavilion1> I think that you already have functions in the current one
00:20:03 <hppavilion1> I think Table could become a really useful language
00:20:23 <hppavilion1> I'm tempted to move my interpreter over to The Glorious Republic
00:20:53 <hppavilion1> It's esoteric more like Haskell than like Brainfuck
00:21:18 <rdococ> maybe I could make a derivative and call it Function or Data or something
00:28:06 <rdococ> cant we just call it Function?
00:28:37 <hppavilion1> And Table is more about Tables than about functions
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00:30:03 <hppavilion1> And I see whatever we call this Table derivative as an actual, used language
00:31:25 <hppavilion1> AND it sounds like a name for a language people actually use :P
00:47:55 <hppavilion1> What do you suggest? And "Function" is a bad name
00:49:20 <rdococ> its not the name thats bothering me
00:49:46 <hppavilion1> The fact that Peano had nothing to do with it?
00:52:38 <hppavilion1> We're discussing the Table derivative, right?
00:53:02 <rdococ> I dont want to make it
00:53:10 <rdococ> its too...idk...not unique
00:53:47 <hppavilion1> Similar to haskell only as far as python is similar to java
00:57:21 <rdococ> what about PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
01:00:02 <rdococ> I want you to take a look at it
01:01:14 <hppavilion1> You want me to implement PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
01:07:24 <hppavilion1> Do I have to make it so programs can look like PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC or can I split by spaces?
01:08:34 <rdococ> http://esolangs.org/wiki/PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
01:08:59 <hppavilion1> But do scripts have to be able to look like PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC
01:09:18 <rdococ> you didnt read the article did you
01:14:13 <hppavilion1> Can I make a slight modification that stays inline with the language?
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01:17:20 <rdococ> variables... exist in PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC?
01:17:31 <rdococ> read the article again
01:18:38 <HackEgo> friendship/friendship wisdom
01:18:44 <HackEgo> doodad/Doodads are just duoids in the category of endofunctors.
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01:22:21 <boily> rdhellococ. helloppavilion1. shellochaf.
01:22:40 <boily> wasn't friendship supposed to be something about singing graphs, la la la ♪?
01:24:22 <rdococ> where is there a channel where I can talk about constructed human language (Esperanto for example)
01:24:44 <boily> there's at least this one hth
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01:47:11 <boily> hppavilion1: what is twh?
01:47:35 <hppavilion1> `learn sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
01:47:42 <HackEgo> Learned 'sine': sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
01:47:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: sine: not found
01:47:54 <HackEgo> sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
01:49:11 <hppavilion1> I FINISHED MY PRINTASKSWITCHINPUTCASEXGOTOACASEYGOTOBELSEGOTOC LEXER!
01:49:48 <boily> ♪ ding ♪ this is a public service announcement. please note that updates to the Wisdom will resume on... Monday... June... Twenty... Two Thousand Fifteen... at the earliest. thanks for your understanding. d'autres messages suivront.
01:51:32 -!- Tod-Autojoined has changed nick to TodPunk.
01:55:12 <boily> hppavilion1: python's quite nice indeed.
01:55:20 <boily> rdococ: you are being unicodish hth.
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02:01:11 <rdococ> delta conlang. ∆me = -∆you
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02:16:35 <rdococ> got tummyache... ow...
02:18:38 <hppavilion1> Is PARI strictly bound to SWITCH VAR CASE VAL GOTO LINE... syntax?
02:18:54 <hppavilion1> (please say no please say no please say no)
02:20:31 <hppavilion1> And does the program crash if it fails to find an appropriate case?
02:21:16 <rdococ> no, there's a 'ELSE GOTO LINE' at the end of each instruction so
02:21:37 <hppavilion1> So that's necessary or the program is invalid?
02:22:39 <rdococ> I meant thats neccessary
02:23:07 <hppavilion1> Ensuring that it ends with a valid else statement
02:34:18 <oren> I made one called TTML (teletype markup lanuge) it's on the wiki
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02:39:03 <hppavilion1> Since HTML is often mistaken for a programming language, why not make it one?
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05:45:07 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/eurovision
05:45:25 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull oerjan
05:45:46 <oerjan> `url wisdom/eurovision
05:45:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/eurovision
05:47:19 <oerjan> `` hg log -remove wisdom/eurovision | paste
05:47:22 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.26702 \ abort: unknown revision 'emove'!
05:47:35 <oerjan> `` hg log --remove wisdom/eurovision | paste
05:47:39 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.27643
05:49:50 * oerjan suddenly wonders how HackEgo's do-everything-twice workflow interacts with paste
05:50:09 <oerjan> does it create two files, only one of which gets committed?
05:51:45 <HackEgo> sine sin(e) =0.410781290502908695476009492018360591888306970393415345304571...
05:52:45 * oerjan has limited patience with people who cannot use `learn correctly.
05:52:52 <oerjan> or `le/rn, for that matter.
06:03:20 <oerjan> `learn A ridicule is a tiny particle composed of bad jokes.
06:03:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'ridicule': A ridicule is a tiny particle composed of bad jokes.
06:43:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Darmok]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43242&oldid=43233 * Oerjan * (+267) Sorry
06:44:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43243&oldid=43229 * Oerjan * (-1) /* D */ Ho hum
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07:00:39 <Edit> Gah disconnects
07:03:24 -!- Edit has quit (Client Quit).
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07:03:56 <oerjan> Walpurgisnacht: in his program
07:05:47 <oerjan> the internet: nothing but trouble since 1982
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07:18:13 <Sgeo> Racket 6.2 released
07:24:39 <izabera> There are two types of people: 1) Those, who start their indices with 1 1) Those, who start their indices with 0.
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07:27:19 <izabera> -.- you're a bunch of unfunny nerds
07:27:56 * oerjan throws a cream pie at izabera
07:28:31 <oerjan> because (0) that jokes is _so_ old (2) i was browsing something else
07:29:11 <izabera> There are only two hard things in Computer Science: cache invalidation and naming things.
07:29:17 <izabera> There are two hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, and off-by-one errors.
07:29:44 <izabera> if you don't laugh, i'll keep going
07:30:12 <izabera> next will be jokes about the binary system
07:30:35 <oerjan> there are three hard things in computer science: cache invalidation, naming things, off-by-one errors, and ruthless efficiency.
07:31:48 * oerjan suddenly notices izabera's nick looks suspiciously spanish. what have i done?
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07:32:38 <izabera> you don't even speak spanish
07:32:54 <oerjan> oh actually google thinks it's basque, means aunt.
07:33:09 <oerjan> but that's still mostly in spain, for now.
07:33:33 <izabera> izabera is how you write isabella in katakana
07:33:52 <oerjan> yeah i see that if i force google translate to try with japanese
07:36:07 * oerjan realizes his "ruthless efficiency" was off-by-one, it should have been "an almost fanatical devotion to the pope"
07:55:45 <Jafet> The naming-things thing? We need a better name for that.
08:01:06 <oerjan> Jafet: the verbinator hth
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09:35:47 <Taneb> I'm going to be working with Apache Thrift very soon, so I need to work out what Apache Thrift is
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09:38:45 <Taneb> It's a sort of layer for communicating between two different programming languages
09:38:57 <b_jonas> hehe, someone asks a question innocently, to which someone else replies that it's complicated and there are entire books written on research about just that one question. that's always funny.
09:39:19 <Taneb> It has a universal way of defining data types
09:39:28 <Taneb> ("universal", it supports around 20 languages)
09:39:52 <Taneb> So you can write your datatype declarations in Thrift and it generates C, Java, Haskell, whatever
09:40:05 <Taneb> http://thrift.apache.org/
09:40:48 <b_jonas> Taneb: ah, I have those kinds of things. serializers that are supposed to serialize and deserialize any kind of data, or universal wrappers that are supposed to wrap any function or class to call from another language. I hate them.
09:41:23 <Taneb> b_jonas, any particular reason?
09:41:42 <rdococ> or, just use a single language for it all
09:42:27 <b_jonas> I think the specifics of how the data is used have to be taken into account, and save/load functions and foreign wrappers should be written partly by hand, and even if you use some general framework for it, you should use lots of annotations about specifics for them so you can control all the details.
09:43:01 <b_jonas> I just don't think the universal serializers are a good idea, because different languages have very different ideas about how data should be represented to be usable well.
09:43:24 <rdococ> the PFIL article is empty...
09:43:52 <Taneb> rdococ, using a single language is often undesirable, different languages are better for different things
09:44:49 <b_jonas> Plus also, those serialized representation languages like json and all the more complicated ones almost never seem to be able to represent both character strings and byte arrays, even though I think both of those are important. And many of them don't even have sensible ways to represent numbers.
09:45:05 <b_jonas> And that's even before you get into automatic serialization of data structures into them.
09:45:37 <Taneb> b_jonas, yes, it is a little problematic like that (your first point), but I think that often things like this are a quick solution and that is all that is needed
09:45:44 <Taneb> And thrift seems to do numbers nicely :)
09:46:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, exactly, which is why automatically wrapping between them is useless. If you try to force a common data representation and function call system on multiple languages, you LOSE most of the important advantages of the different languages in first place.
09:47:05 <b_jonas> Taneb: those wrapper stuffs works when someone invents a supposedly "revolutionary new programming language" that's actually just C or java or ruby with slightly different syntax, and then is lazy to port libraries to it, so wraps the corresponding C or java or ruby libraries to it in a straightforward way, which just proves that his language doesn't really do anything new.
09:48:13 <Taneb> b_jonas, Thrift seems quite nice and not failing the failures you seem to find common, but I am just learning it and do not have much experience in this area so I cannot really explain satisfactorily
09:48:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, numbers aren't _always_ bad, numbers are actually probably a case where you can make wrapping possible, because there's only like a few dozen useful ways to represent numbers in both languages, so you can write conversion to each of the at most few hundred pairs of them that is ever useful.
09:49:25 <Jafet> b_jonas: welcome to the channel for revolutionary new programming language design and deployment
09:49:41 <b_jonas> Jafet: yes, but they aren't even always esoteric
09:50:01 <b_jonas> as in, sometimes the intention is to build a practical language
09:50:05 <Taneb> Although Thrift was originally designed for Facebook's internal needs so has the features they wanted and has good support for the languages they were using at the time
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09:51:47 <b_jonas> Taneb: well, designing the system for a particular well-defined use case is at least a plus. If you have a particular need for wrappers or serializers or frameworks, sure, go on. But don't expect me to believe that it's some sort of universal silver bullet for a very general task.
09:52:10 <Taneb> b_jonas, I didn't intend to
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09:54:23 <rdococ> "for a very general task" said every programming language ever
09:54:57 <Jafet> Silver bullets, ideal for shooting one's foot
09:55:29 <b_jonas> Jafet: huh? why would I do that, I'm not specifically vulnerable to silver, so an ordinary bullet would work.
09:56:57 <gamemanj> Would be a waste of silver, too.
09:57:43 <rdococ> yeah use a dirt bullet instead
09:58:24 <gamemanj> (because there's no reason to shoot b_jonas)
09:58:49 <rdococ> (yeah, why not shoot everyone else too?)
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10:00:33 <Taneb> I would advocate against shooting everyone
10:01:33 <Taneb> rdococ, it tends to annoy a lot of people
10:01:47 <Taneb> Who might try and shoot you first or throw you in jail or something
10:02:11 -!- lleu has joined.
10:02:36 <rdococ> what, you think I didn't know that? why would I shoot anybody? I never said I wanted to...
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10:18:38 <b_jonas> these spammers should learn some Hungarian. they send machine-translated scam messages (mostly email account related phishing) that have terrible machine translated text
10:19:18 <gamemanj> When shooting people becomes fashionable... the world will be mad...
10:19:51 <rdococ> well, feminism is already fashionable, and I dont like that
10:20:10 <rdococ> I absolutely hate feminism for claiming to be equal, yet only solving one gender's problems
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10:21:48 <b_jonas> meanwhile, the airline is sending me ads to buy extras for the airplane tickets I bought, with crazy text like “Do you have everything prepared for your journey?” I don't, duh, because it's still months away, I'm not in a hurry.
10:22:10 <b_jonas> why would I buy stuff now when I can do it later as I decide on the details?
10:22:22 <b_jonas> I'm visiting Sweden in August
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10:53:27 <b_jonas> just to be clear, when Americans say “Eastern time”, that means the USA/New York time zone, the one that's -04:00 in the summer, right?
11:03:02 <b_jonas> rdococ: I did better, I checked timeanddate.com , but "Eastern time" is so ambiguous and used for like five timezones that I can never be sure
11:03:19 <b_jonas> "Eastern time (North America)" would be fine, but I'm reading a note that says "Eastern time" only
11:03:34 <b_jonas> and it's from either an American or a Canadian
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11:07:35 <rdococ> write back to them asking to clarify
11:09:00 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, I'll look up the same info from other sources instead
11:09:16 <b_jonas> it's not a one-one-one meeting request, but a public event
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11:20:32 <Taneb> b_jonas, thinking about it, I think EST refers specifically to GMT-5
11:20:59 <Taneb> Although Eastern Time...
11:21:03 <Taneb> Aaaah, this is ambiguous
11:21:08 <Taneb> It's either GMT-5 or -4
11:21:12 <Taneb> I'd show up early and bring a book
11:22:44 <b_jonas> it's clearly in the summer, as in very soon, so it's summer time
11:23:59 <b_jonas> oh wait, north america has a few territories that don't use DST at all, right?
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12:06:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Asterisks * New user account
12:07:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43244&oldid=43187 * Asterisks * (+4) /* General languages */
12:10:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43245&oldid=43244 * Asterisks * (+36) /* General languages */
12:12:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[*]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43246 * Asterisks * (+161) Simply Asterisks
12:13:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[*]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43247&oldid=43246 * Asterisks * (+6)
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14:04:49 <nys> anybody know how newtypes were represented in haskell before System FC? >.>
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14:13:35 <nys> er, in GHC i mean
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14:38:59 <HackEgo> monad/Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
14:39:04 <HackEgo> taneb/Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
14:39:49 <lambdabot> copumpkin says: a monad is just a lax functor from a terminal bicategory, duh. fuck that monoid in category of endofunctors shit
14:40:23 <b_jonas> nys: dunno, as newtypes are mostly the same as strict data (which I think haskell compilers have anyway), except for some deriving rules, I just assumed they're always represented as strict data
14:45:40 <HackEgo> cake/The Enrichment Center is required to remind you that you will be baked, and then there will be cake.
14:45:50 <HackEgo> m–rdalsjökull/M–rdalsjökull is a draconic volcano harbouring the secret KATL base.
14:46:03 <boily> that was a weird one...
14:46:15 <lambdabot> KATL 201421Z 25009G15KT 10SM BKN023 28/22 A3007 RMK AO2
14:46:23 <lambdabot> CYQB 201400Z 00000KT 30SM FEW050 BKN240 16/07 A3010 RMK CU1CI5 CU TR SLP192
14:46:30 <boily> yup. 28 is draconic enough.
14:48:06 <HackEgo> funpun/funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf.
14:48:17 <nys> b_jonas: i thought strict data needed an actual container to match on?
14:48:21 <HackEgo> vastre prophy dispel shiberwher sphospi loro lutterin rome jdgeme commetalome
14:48:56 <b_jonas> nys: if it's strict data, would it have a container? wouldn't it be represented as just a struct of its members?
14:49:10 <b_jonas> or does that not work well with the runtime system for passing it to functions?
14:49:11 <nys> yeah that's what i mean
14:49:22 <nys> i don't think newtypes are actually contained within anything
14:49:54 <b_jonas> sure, but if it has no extras, just _one_ member, then what difference does that effectively have at runtime from holding that single value without a container?
14:50:30 <b_jonas> I think the runtime system has to be able to handle non-boxed values, and pass them to functions, anyway
14:50:43 <b_jonas> because it's necessary for other optimizations, such as unboxed numbers
14:50:58 <b_jonas> but if you want a real answer, ask on #haskell or #ghc or something
14:51:10 <b_jonas> because I don't know haskell enough
14:51:14 <b_jonas> or ask oren here or something
14:51:34 <b_jonas> or the other haskell guy, there's a lot of them here for some reason, it's as if they thought Haskell was…
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14:52:56 <Jafet> Yes, we think that Haskell is a practical, accessible, serious and effective programming language
14:53:52 <Jafet> Maybe we need more weird DSLs, like the reverse state transformer monad...
14:54:41 <b_jonas> well it certainly has a good serious non-esoteric compiler at least
14:57:18 <Melvar> IIRC a newtype specifically means that there is no wrapper: The runtime representation is exactly the same as the contained type, and the constructor and projection become identity functions.
14:57:59 <shachaf> That's the intent, but the Report hardly talks about runtime representations enough to specify it precisely.
14:58:02 <Jafet> Not exactly: they may still have different typeclass dictionaries.
14:59:12 <Melvar> Typeclass dictionaries are separate objects.
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15:16:35 <rdococ> I want to make a language called Polynomial but it already exists
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15:18:32 <rdococ> a program p is a function that takes input i and returns program q and output o.
15:19:02 <rdococ> so in a video game program, when you take one step to the right, you get transferred to another program created on the fly in which you're one step to the right.
15:19:30 <rdococ> wait... isnt that just an FSA???
15:23:57 <Taneb> It could be like a FSA except with infinite states
15:24:05 <Taneb> Depending on how the programs are constructed
15:24:15 <Taneb> Which could make it any number of complexities
15:24:16 <rdococ> I had the idea that programs were formulae
15:24:47 <rdococ> so a program in my idea would have to be a formula that returns output and another formula (that returns output and another formula which returns ... and so on)
15:26:21 <rdococ> or, programs could just map a single input to a single output for ease
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15:37:18 <rdococ> x^2 is square cat function
15:43:44 <rdococ> if you put in 8, square cat says 64.
15:43:56 <scoofy> what if you put in 'nutella'
15:44:09 <Jafet> You get vegemite, scoofy
15:44:45 <rdococ> 10000, duh, number of calories in a tablespoon of nutella squared.
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15:45:17 <Jafet> Only if you use the call-by-caloric-value evaluation strategy
15:48:24 <Taneb> What about x^7 + 2x^4 + x^3 - x - 2?
15:49:39 <b_jonas> rdococ: cat? but aren't functions actually birds?
15:50:25 <Taneb> b_jonas, functions which take functions as arguments and emit functions are
15:50:35 <Taneb> I suspect these are different
15:50:44 <b_jonas> aren't all functions like that, in that universe?
15:50:59 <b_jonas> as in, numbers are represented by birds too
15:51:07 <b_jonas> or by the name of birds at least
15:51:10 <Taneb> Therefore some birds are in fact cats
15:52:44 <Jafet> This must be what they mean by polymorphism
15:53:01 <b_jonas> yeah, but cats are a more violent representation of birds. birds take the argument in the form of a call with the other bird's name, whereas cats _eat_ birds
15:53:18 <b_jonas> I think cats aren't birds, but they're a different way to represent some birds
15:53:38 <b_jonas> and cats usually don't eat other cats
15:54:17 <Taneb> Some birds eat birds
15:56:10 <b_jonas> yes, and cats also eat rats or canned food made of birds
15:56:11 <tswett> rdococ: so far, your programming language is simply the collection of all polynomials.
15:57:47 <tswett> Hmm. Is there a polynomial function in the ring of integers modulo 10, which takes on the value 1 at 0, and 0 at all other inputs?
15:58:04 <tswett> The polynomial (1 - x)(2 - x)(3 - x)...(9 - x) doesn't work.
15:58:27 <tswett> That one's 0 at 0 despite not having (0 - x) as an obvious factor.
15:59:05 <rdococ> yes, just use interpolation duh
15:59:25 <b_jonas> ring of integers modulo 10
16:00:43 <rdococ> you can approximate it - and any other periodical function like sine, cosine, etcetera
16:02:02 <Taneb> tswett, it needs a constant factor of 1
16:14:02 <Jafet> It only exists for prime moduli (and then, it seems that the only polynomial is (n-1)x^(n-1)).
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16:50:26 <HackEgo> funciton/A funciton is the number of burgers to eat when I get one.
16:50:37 <HackEgo> el camino real/There is no royal road to analytic geometry.
16:51:03 <Taneb> Is there a royal road to other parts of mathematics?
16:51:22 <b_jonas> http://thedoghousediaries.com/ would be better without the third panel
16:51:56 <shachaf> I guess there should be a 'camino real' entry and a symlink from 'el camino real' for consistency.
16:53:03 <HackEgo> moon/The Moon is an unprovable celestial object that is not very retroreflectorey.
16:53:17 <shachaf> Taneb: I don't think there's a royal road to any sort of geometry.
16:53:30 <shachaf> Taneb: But analytic geometry deals with the reals, presumably.
16:54:25 <shachaf> b_jonas: i don't get it hth
16:54:52 <shachaf> Oh, apparently Antiques Roadshow is a television show. Maybe I would get it if I watched the show.
16:55:41 <b_jonas> shachaf: no the tv show is irrelevant I think. or maybe that's what would make the third panel funny, I don't know.
16:56:10 <b_jonas> I've heared of such tv shows (and even seen a few ten minutes of one).
16:56:28 <HackEgo> arrow/Arrows are just strong monads in the category of profunctors.
16:56:34 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
16:57:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: stupidity: not found
16:57:54 <rdococ> `dumbidiotsaysnotfound
16:57:54 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: dumbidiotsaysnotfound: not found
16:58:49 <rdococ> whats the difference between you saying `wisdom all the time and me saying stuff beginning with ` all the time?
16:59:35 <shachaf> Well, you already know the results of your things, which is an error. Every time I say `wisdom we get a new entry (though I probably do overdo it).
16:59:43 <shachaf> Also the things you said were mean and insulting.
16:59:53 <b_jonas> wow, I knew David Madore was very good in writing his blog articles to explain his thoughts well, but this long coherent sentence is brilliant.
17:00:11 <rdococ> uh... sorry, didn't know a bot had feelings... sarcasm.end;
17:00:35 <Jafet> Maybe you just need to wise up a little bit.
17:00:41 <b_jonas> it's a long sentence with a complicated nested composed structure, but it manages to hold together perfectly parseable in first try with very few extra glue particulars.
17:01:08 <b_jonas> “D'autant plus que ce n'était pas tellement le résultat du calcul qui m'intéressait, et dont je suis totalement certain qu'il est connu depuis Klein, Cayley, Clebsch ou, au pire, Segre, et qu'il figure dans quantité de livres ou d'articles, mais d'y arriver moi-même, et de façon systématique, sans essayer de « deviner » le résultat (qui, a posteriori, était éminemment devinable), bref, de vérifier que je savais mener ce calcul à bien.”
17:01:51 <b_jonas> If I learnt to write so well, I could write my damned thesis easily.
17:02:09 <b_jonas> He manages to do that with complicated mathematical content in a popular way too.
17:02:52 <b_jonas> Maybe I should put more skill points in this, even though it's cross class for me.
17:03:36 <shachaf> Is that sentence so good that I should learn French to understand it?
17:03:38 <b_jonas> Writing well requires a check with bonus from which attribute? Charisma?
17:03:46 <b_jonas> shachaf: not for that sentence, no
17:04:19 <Taneb> b_jonas, either CHA or WIS
17:04:42 <b_jonas> Wis is for perception and for strength of will.
17:05:01 <b_jonas> Ok, for more than that actually. I don't really know because it's a dump stat for me.
17:05:09 <Taneb> It's for knowing the right thing to do
17:05:28 <b_jonas> Ah, that might be a good description.
17:05:32 * gamemanj doesn't understand the sentence... but the keyword "Klein" suggests a relation to mathematical spaces...
17:07:03 <b_jonas> Taneb: it's a good description because it explains why strength of will and perception of the outside world can come together in a single attribute so well.
17:07:56 <tswett> In the ring of integers modulo 10, is x^5 always equal to x?
17:08:46 -!- evalj has joined.
17:08:49 <evalj> b_jonas: 0 1 32 243 1024 3125 7776 16807 32768 59049
17:08:53 <evalj> b_jonas: 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9
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17:10:37 <tswett> So certainly not all functions are polynomial functions.
17:10:56 <tswett> The number of polynomial functions is only... 10^5?
17:11:12 <evalj> b_jonas: 0 1 6 1 6 5 6 1 6 1
17:11:36 <tswett> Hey look, it's... those.
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17:11:57 <tswett> There's a word for a number x such that x^2 = x.
17:12:11 <Taneb> Quadratic repricorewfwief or something
17:14:19 <HackEgo> 215) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (-)*10000 <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 12.9 <Vorpal> yay \ 216) <Vorpal> !bfjoust test (++-)*1000000 <Vorpal> probably will suck <EgoBot> Score for Vorpal_test: 30.4 <Vorpal> what \ 223) <Deewiant> !bfjoust sm3 < <EgoBot> Score for Deewiant_sm3: 43.4 \ 1064) <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want
17:14:46 <EgoBot> Use: !bfjoust <program name> <program> . Scoreboard, programs, and a description of score calculation are at http://codu.org/eso/bfjoust/
17:15:21 <Jafet> `quote \S{3,}core\b
17:15:22 <HackEgo> 1064) <kmc> are you a hardcore PC gamer Sgeo_ <Sgeo_> Want to be
17:26:01 <rdococ> but what if instead we used something like fourier did?
17:26:22 <rdococ> 3sin(3x + 2) - 3 or something
17:26:49 <Taneb> I don't think sin is well-defined in Z/10Z
17:27:23 <HackEgo> 267) <zzo38> elliott: I doubt water memory can last for even one second in a gravitational field (or even outside of a gravitational field), but other people think they can make water memory with telephones. \ 401) <Taneb> Look, I often walk my dog through a field with cows in it. And I punched myself in the face once. \ 452) <zzo38> Pythagoras was
17:27:31 <rdococ> also there are infinitely many polynomial functions because you can just keep adding terms and stuff
17:28:03 <Taneb> There are infinitely many polynomials but only so many polynomial functions
17:28:50 <Taneb> Some polynomials define the same function (in some rings)
17:29:09 <Taneb> As was pointed out earlier, x^5 = x in Z/10Z
17:29:32 <Taneb> In fact, there are only 10^10 functions from Z/10Z to Z/10Z
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17:30:30 <rdococ> uh integers modulo 10 I think?
17:30:43 <Taneb> nortti, it is a notation for a group isomorphic to integers modulo 10
17:30:55 <rdococ> did I say I wanted this Z/10Z stuff?
17:31:17 <Taneb> rdococ, no, I was thinking of a conversation which happened in between
17:34:31 <Taneb> So yeah, disregard what I said then (although it may be interesting in its own right)
17:45:30 <tswett> !bfjoust fracko >([-]----->)*40000
17:45:33 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_fracko: 8.0
17:46:49 <Jafet> I don't think the jousting field is that long.
17:47:05 <tswett> Nobody knows for sure.
17:50:46 <tswett> So I imagine the hill just keeps the top 48 or something.
17:52:21 <oerjan> nobody knows what for sure?
17:53:05 <Taneb> oerjan, how long the jousting field is
17:53:11 <Taneb> Maybe it's three miles
17:53:34 <oerjan> i suppose, in an abstract theoretical way
17:53:56 <Jafet> I hear that it's infinitely long, but only on one side
17:54:53 <oerjan> this is rubbish, clearly once you pass the flags you fall off onto the turtle the field sits on hth
17:55:33 <Jafet> Hmm, competitive turtles
17:55:42 <HackEgo> lmt/lmt is insufficiently mad for this channel.
17:56:23 <oerjan> i think int-e must have disabled it again
17:57:05 <HackEgo> bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
17:57:31 <oerjan> anyway i recall he came by sometime in the last months
17:57:43 <HackEgo> pdf/PDF stands for Pretty Depressing Format.
17:57:47 <HackEgo> bfjoust is a spamming tool for #esoteric.
17:58:19 <Jafet> I suppose a competitive turtle game would proceed like lightcycle racing
17:58:24 <tswett> For every collection of turtles, there is a turtle not in the collection.
17:58:34 <tswett> For example, consider the collection of all turtles.
17:58:39 <tswett> There is a turtle not in that collection.
17:58:56 <oerjan> i find your proof incomplete hth
18:01:08 <HackEgo> goat/Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
18:01:10 <oerjan> dammit accidentally typed an n into a tatham puzzle
18:01:21 <tswett> All right, so I see that my bfjoust program isn't very effective.
18:01:27 <oerjan> wtf doesn't it allow undo past n
18:01:42 <oerjan> (not that that helps with q, which should be eviscerated)
18:02:04 <Jafet> Something something open source
18:02:49 <oerjan> it's such a stupid thing to do that it must be willfully designed.
18:03:19 <Jafet> I remember the days when firefox mapped ^Q to quit
18:03:56 <Jafet> (on most keyboards, it's next to ^W)
18:08:25 <tswett> I mean, what's tatham?
18:09:07 <Jafet> Not by default. On linux, firefox gets the ^Q binding from desktop settings.
18:10:03 <oerjan> tswett: http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/
18:20:23 <tswett> http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/puzzles/js/map.html - with this one, I find myself relatively frequently depending on the fact that there's only one consistent coloring.
18:20:57 <tswett> "If this region had this color, then this region would be bordered by only two other colors, but that's impossible because there would be two consistent colorings then."
18:22:52 <oerjan> tswett: i don't recall ever needing that.
18:23:04 <oerjan> it might be a shortcut, though.
18:23:26 <oerjan> some puzzles have an option to turn off uniqueness, maybe that does.
18:23:59 <oerjan> admittedly map isn't one of my favorites so i usually don't play it that long
18:24:08 <tswett> Theoretically, it's never needed.
18:26:45 <Jafet> .oO( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valiant-Vazirani_theorem )
18:28:11 <Taneb> Where did this .oO( ) thing come from
18:28:31 <oerjan> i think int-e is the main perpetrator
18:30:28 * oerjan seems to have forgotten the tricks to doing map puzzles again
18:35:56 <tswett> "Place a tent next to each tree." Well, that sounds easy.
18:36:58 <Jafet> ₒ∘°˚ᴼ(would you prefer this?)
18:38:06 <shachaf> I think it means rougly the same as I,I
18:38:37 <Taneb> Jafet, I am just confused by its sudden appearance a few weeks ago
18:40:31 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
19:03:26 <Jafet> According to my logs, it's been around for longer. I can't find a line where int-e uses it, though.
19:09:29 <oerjan> Jafet: try with extra spaces
19:10:10 <Jafet> Ah, that nails the perp.
19:10:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43248&oldid=43109 * Jabutosama * (+242) /* Ideas for Names */
19:12:07 <tswett> Hey, how is the score of a program on EgoBot's bfjoust hill determined?
19:12:24 <tswett> It's not obvious how "score" and "points" are related.
19:18:31 <tswett> !bfjoust stupid_bad (>[>>>>[+]])*40000
19:18:33 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_stupid_bad: 4.7
19:19:38 <EgoBot> Sorry, I have no help for bfjoust!
19:19:41 <zemhill__> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
19:19:41 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
19:19:53 <EgoBot> languages: Esoteric: 1l 2l adjust asm axo bch befunge befunge98 bf bf8 bf16 bf32 boolfuck cintercal clcintercal dimensifuck glass glypho haskell kipple lambda lazyk linguine malbolge pbrain perl qbf rail rhotor sadol sceql trigger udage01 underload unlambda whirl. Competitive: bfjoust fyb. Other: asm c cxx forth sh.
19:20:10 <oerjan> hmph there might not be any obvious pointer to information
19:20:24 <oerjan> it's presumably on a github somewhere.
19:21:03 <oerjan> fukyorbrane or something like that
19:21:21 <oerjan> brainfuck derived game
19:22:29 <oerjan> tswett: from what i recall EgoBot's point -> score updating isn't stateless, unlike zemhill's.
19:23:02 <oerjan> i.e. scores are adjusted from the points somehow, but based on the already existing scores.
19:23:22 <oerjan> and in a way such that submission order matters.
19:23:49 <oerjan> (i think the adjustment is linear or something similarly simple.)
19:24:51 <oerjan> zemhill, meanwhile, uses a matrix eigenvector calculation that takes all hill pairing results into account simultaneously.
19:25:19 <myname> bfjoust is serious business
19:26:01 <oerjan> zemhill's implementation used to have a serious bug which fizzie may or may not have managed to fix, though.
19:26:16 <oerjan> (stemming from the matrix library used.)
19:26:55 <oerjan> myname: well the only people who manage to get on the hills these days are those who treat it as such.
19:28:11 <Jafet> Eigenvector scoring (aka PageRank) isn't that serious.
19:28:39 <myname> is being on the hill is a valid point on a cv?
19:29:05 <Jafet> I don't think you want staying on the hill to be part of your employment
19:29:13 <Jafet> Then again, who knows.
19:29:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43249&oldid=43248 * Jabutosama * (+81) /* Joke/Silly Ideas */
19:30:08 <myname> not part of it, but i do think it's quite the achievement
19:30:14 <gamemanj> myname: Maybe if framed as "Defensive Programming"...
19:30:35 <tswett> !bfjoust best_program_imaginable (>+[[-.]])*40000
19:30:37 <EgoBot> Score for tswett_best_program_imaginable: 7.4
19:32:25 <Jafet> What if your jouster isn't defensive
19:32:37 <oerjan> !zjoust tswett_best_program_imaginable (>+[[-.]])*40000
19:32:59 <Jafet> (I guess a rusher can be described as "agile")
19:33:13 <oerjan> hm maybe zemhill is actually broken.
19:35:17 <tswett> Huh, ais523_growth2 and ais523_preparation are apparently really good.
19:35:59 <tswett> Wait, ais523_preparation beats *every* program besides ais523_growth2?
19:43:54 <oerjan> that's ais523 for you.
19:45:40 <gamemanj> Sounds like ais523 is good at bfjoust.
19:45:59 <tswett> But is ais523 good at figuring out how "AA/INI/ZZ/IVI/V" is notation for the trefoil knot?
19:46:31 <tswett> That is, after all, the only thing truly worth figuring out.
19:48:31 <tswett> Here, have some equations.
19:48:53 <gamemanj> "the only thing truly worth figuring out." is relative...
19:49:31 <tswett> A/N = A. N/Z = II. IA/NI = AI/IZ. AI/IV = I. Uh, what was that last one.
19:49:47 <tswett> Eh, the last one is clear enough.
19:49:56 <tswett> Then add associativity and identity and there you go.
19:50:02 <tswett> Oh, and the symmetric versions of those rules.
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19:50:54 <tswett> See, we already have enough here to prove that A/IAI/IVI/V = AA/VV.
19:51:03 <tswett> Ha ha, A/IAI/IVI/V. What a funny expression.
19:56:02 <oerjan> <tswett> Hmm. Is there a polynomial function in the ring of integers modulo 10, which takes on the value 1 at 0, and 0 at all other inputs? <-- i don't think so. because 10 = 2*5, you can quotient down to Z/2Z, so if it's odd at 0, it must be odd at all other even coordinates.
19:56:26 <HackEgo> morphism/A morphism is just a natural transformation between two functors on 1.
19:57:21 <myname> how many wisdoms containing the word "functor" are there?
19:57:48 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il functor wisdom | wc -l
19:59:29 <oerjan> `` rgrep -il categor wisdom | wc -l
19:59:42 <shachaf> `` egrep -ril '(is|are) just' wisdom | wc -l
20:00:12 <myname> i'd like a list of all of these
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20:05:38 <myname> i do like the idea of fyb
20:06:01 <Jafet> `` grep -Erwim1 '(is|are) just' wisdom | wc -l
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20:06:14 <shachaf> is that a ruder version of syb twh
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20:07:54 <Jafet> Sounds like a useful language already
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20:11:51 <oerjan> <Taneb> I don't think sin is well-defined in Z/10Z <-- you'd want to use group characters instead.
20:12:04 <Taneb> oerjan, I don't know characters!
20:12:11 <Taneb> (I will by Christmas, hopefully)
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20:13:15 <oerjan> `learn A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulus 1.
20:13:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'character': A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulus 1.
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20:47:45 <b_jonas> Where the heck is that story I remember? I can never find anything in this book. I should try to understand it more, but it's difficult.
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21:06:10 <int-e> @tell oerjan Indeed, I've disabled @seen because I suspect it of leaking memory.
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21:14:00 <int-e> . o O ( So Taneb doesn't like my way of thinking?! Pity... )
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22:37:22 <newsham> https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
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00:11:33 <boily> Warrigal: Warrighello. back to your old nick?
00:12:04 -!- Warrigal has changed nick to tswett.
00:12:09 <tswett> What old nick? What are you talking about?
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00:15:28 <HackEgo> tswett is livin' it up with the penguins
00:16:18 <tswett> `le/rn warrigal/#esoteric's resident dingo. Sometimes pretends to be a human.
00:16:25 <tswett> Because I live in Antarctica.
00:16:44 <tswett> Due to what one might call (no pun intended) a series of unfortunate events.
00:16:46 <oren2> I'm the same oren2 but I forgot to turn off my other computer and can't do so remoterl
00:17:14 <oren2> eh, i guess it's fine
00:17:41 <oren2> do you work in a weather base?
00:18:09 <tswett> You see, I was born in Australia, and went to school in Finland. A couple of mistakes and corner cases led to my Australian citizenship being terminated while I was only considered a visiting student in Finland.
00:18:32 <tswett> I had an internship working as a mathematician at McMurdo Station in Antarctica.
00:18:42 <tswett> My internship finished, and I found that neither country wanted me back.
00:19:35 <pikhq> How unfortunate. Now you should claim to be an Antarctic citizen.
00:21:26 <tswett> I decided to found an Antarctic state while I'm here.
00:21:34 <tswett> The "Republic of Antarctica", which you might have heard of.
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00:22:08 <tswett> So far we haven't received diplomatic recognition by any country except Switzerland.
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00:26:09 <o-rin> ah this one isn't being used
00:27:52 <boily> tswett: uhm. seriously twh?
00:28:04 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
00:28:29 <HackEgo> A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
00:28:35 <boily> tswett: clarifying if you're serious or not. or even if Switzerland is serious or not.
00:28:45 <tswett> Switzerland is pretty serious.
00:29:01 <boily> o-rin: sorry about creatively porthelloing your nick. I can't help but have yuru yuri's opening playing in my head.
00:29:20 <tswett> Anyway, my resume only mentions locations within the United States, so I'm probably making this all up.
00:30:21 <boily> tswett: http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/The_Democratic_Penguin%27s_Republic_of_Antarctica
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00:31:37 <boily> o-rin: oui? que? quoi? mais qu'est-ce? se pourrait-il que? do you beliiiieve in love at first sight ♪
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00:32:21 <boily> gamemanj: yes. I'm quite confused there.
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00:35:02 <o-rin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUT8hkJbmEM
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01:03:44 <boily> helloppavilion1! what kind of tablet is it?
01:04:08 <boily> also, what laptop? how did it break? what's your stance about roast beef?
01:05:44 <hppavilion1> perl -wlne'END{print$n}eof&&$n++;/<title>([^<]+)/i&&$n--' *
01:06:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[A:;]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43250&oldid=39599 * 73.184.106.177 * (+0) changed order
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01:24:51 <boily> it's an equation. it shouldn't be crazy. Taneb probably has invented it.
01:28:47 <tswett> Walpurgisnacht: I conclude that (pc^2)^2 = 0.
01:29:26 <tswett> Indeed, I thus conclude that p = 0.
01:29:33 <Walpurgisnacht> Its the full equation or almost complete equation of e = mc^2
01:29:56 <boily> tswett: it's not required that p = 0. what if you have a zero divisor?
01:30:11 <tswett> boily: then your physics is weird.
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01:36:05 <tswett> So in other words, E^2 = (mc^2)^2 + (mvc)^2, where v is the speed of the object, so E^2 = (mc)^2 (c^2 + v^2), so E = mc sqrt(c^2 + v^2).
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01:39:39 <tswett> Wait, I might not be right. I'm assuming that momentum is mass times speed.
01:40:33 <tswett> Walpurgisnacht: so is m here the rest mass or the relativistic mass?
01:41:39 <tswett> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy%E2%80%93momentum_relation
01:41:52 <Walpurgisnacht> I'm not genetically related to anyone in the esolang community that I know of
01:42:24 <tswett> E^2 = (pc)^2 + (mc^2)^2, where m is rest mass, E is total energy, and p is the magnitude of the momentum.
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01:48:00 <HackEgo> bash: where: command not found
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01:50:55 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/dev/zero': Read-only file system
01:51:28 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py \ selflink \
01:52:46 <tswett> `` mkdir ' \'; mkdir '\ '; mkdir ' \ '
01:53:00 <HackEgo> \ \ \ \ \ :-( \ \ \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ scr
01:53:34 <tswett> `` rmdir ' ' ' \' '\ ' ' \'
01:53:35 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove ` \\': No such file or directory
01:54:39 <tswett> `run cat blah > 'blah \ blah'
01:54:43 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py
01:54:56 <tswett> Now people will wonder why there are three files called "blah".
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01:57:21 * boily gives tswett an honourary golden mapole
02:03:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: random_elliott: not found
02:03:36 <boily> `` cat random_elliott
02:03:37 <HackEgo> elliott \ a \ b \ c \ d \ e \ f \ g \ h \ i \ j \ k \ l \ m \ n \ o \ p \ q \ r \ s \ t \ u \ v \ w \ x \ y \ z
02:03:54 <boily> @ask elliott what the random is it?
02:04:47 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
02:05:07 <lambdabot> elite <phrase>. Translate English to elitespeak
02:05:49 * boily mapoles lambdabot “don't you dare defile the Name of Our CHICKEN”
02:06:38 <tswett> @seen Whatever the output of this command is, I will name my first child.
02:06:38 <lambdabot> \/\/|-|A+EVeR teh OUTpu+ of 7Hiz0rz Co/\/\m4nd I$, I \/\/i1l NAmE my phirst ChIld.
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02:13:18 <tswett> Hmm. There's a certain decision that computer programmers make frequently.
02:15:02 <tswett> Namely, whether the current stage of a process should be represented using a state variable, or by where the execution pointer is.
02:30:41 <boily> fizzie: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
02:30:54 <boily> fizzie: please refungot the chännel!
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02:37:41 <Sgeo> "In UNIX operating systems you can leave files called -r and -f on the filesystem. If you then call rm * then rm cannot distinguish between the files -r and -f and does a recursive delete leaving only -r and -f. This is because it's the shell that expands the arguments."
02:37:47 <o-rin> damned rural internet
02:38:03 <Sgeo> I guess Tcl is similar
02:38:21 <Sgeo> Although most Tcl commands allow a -- which means don't assume the remaining arguments are options
02:38:54 <o-rin> most shell commands (the gnu versions anyway) do too
02:39:27 <boily> o-rin: is that how you can grep for a pattern that begins with ‘-’? I'm always having trouble with that.
02:41:26 <tswett> Phantom_Hoover: in most programming languages, the execution pointer is not exposed as a variable.
02:41:36 <tswett> Sgeo: well, how would you change Unix so that it doesn't do that?
02:41:52 <Sgeo> I'd endorse non-UNIX, I think
02:42:22 <Sgeo> Some clean distinction between options and non-option arguments, more like Racket keyword arguments
02:42:29 <Sgeo> Than like CL keyword arguments
02:42:37 <pikhq> o-rin: That's not just the GNU versions.
02:42:38 <tswett> I think that's a good idea.
02:42:52 <pikhq> That is incredibly ancient Unix.
02:42:59 <pikhq> IIRC it predates C.
02:43:18 <boily> nothing can predate C.
02:43:43 <Sgeo> B, and before that A... I mean BCPL
02:43:57 <pikhq> To be specific, BTW: getopt has the behavior that option processing stops with "--".
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02:44:17 <pikhq> And POSIX getopt BUT NOT GNU GETOPT has the behavior that option processing stops with the first non-option.
02:44:53 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove directory: `.'
02:45:01 <Sgeo> "B continues to see use (as of 2014)..."
02:45:06 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove directory: `.'
02:45:09 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py
02:45:42 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin: No such file or directory
02:46:03 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
02:46:04 <HackEgo> ` \ `` \ ^.^ \ ̊ \ ! \ ? \ ¿ \ ' \ @ \ ؟ \ ＷＥＬＣＯＭＥ \ \ \ 2014 \ 2015 \ 8ball \ 8-ball \ aaaaaaaaa \ addquote \ allquotes \ analogy \ anonlog \ as86 \ aseen \ benvenuto \ bf \ bienvenido \ botsnack \ bseen \ buttsnack \ calc \ cAt \ CaT \ catcat \ cats \ cc \ cdecl \ c++decl \ chroot \ coins \ CoInS \ complain \ complaints
02:47:15 <pikhq> Sgeo: Apparently some mainframe happened to use B.
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07:15:57 <lambdabot> int-e said 10h 9m 47s ago: Indeed, I've disabled @seen because I suspect it of leaking memory.
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08:35:44 <Taneb> Why am I in the mood to make a really overengineered brainfuck implementation
08:37:31 <Taneb> Running on multiple computers, written in multiple languages
08:37:54 <Taneb> Possibly not brainfuck...
08:39:17 <myname> like fizzbuzz enterprise edition?
09:02:55 <Taneb> Oh hey, it's the solstice
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09:49:42 <rdococ> I want to make a derp!!!
09:49:58 <rdococ> (what is a derp anyway?)
09:51:06 <myname> a regular derp or a more advanced herp derp?
10:00:20 <oerjan> <tswett> `revert <-- eep
10:01:42 <oerjan> tswett: i suspect you just undid every single symbolic link in bin. hopefully that doesn't actually break anything.
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10:21:51 <J_Arcane> https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator
10:22:37 <oerjan> J_Arcane: your link is _so_ yesterday hth
10:22:55 <J_Arcane> Midsummer holiday and lots of Rust. :D
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11:06:20 <gamemanj> Rust? As in the language or the game?
11:07:55 <myname> i hope it's tje language
11:09:42 <Taneb> I hope J_Arcane is referring to oxidized iron
12:13:04 <Taneb> I wonder if brainfuck is more easily optimizable with a prime number of possible cell values
12:16:14 <Taneb> Because then the cell values form a field
12:16:21 <Taneb> Which feels like it should be helpful
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15:30:02 <HackEgo> bin/selflink: broken symbolic link to `selflink'
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16:33:04 <vanila> https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator/
16:33:31 <vanila> https://github.com/xoreaxeaxeax/movfuscator/raw/master/slides/the_movfuscator_recon_2015.pdf
16:33:55 <ais523> hmm, but xor only takes two arguments
16:34:11 <ais523> is this a three-arg asm? in which case, is that seriously the best way to zero eax?
16:34:35 <vanila> what is beign discussed?}
16:35:11 <vanila> the guy encoded everything with MOV instruction :D
16:36:45 <ais523> there's a wireworld computer that works like that
16:37:12 <ais523> (wireworld isn't TC in finite space)
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16:41:41 <ais523> yes, the URL itself, not the page at the destination
16:41:56 <ais523> "xor eax, eax" is an x86ism for zeroing eax, because it has a short encoding
16:41:57 <vanila> xoreaxeax was probably taken
16:42:55 <shachaf> xor eax, eax even works on amd64
16:45:13 <ais523> shachaf: well yes, amd64 is backwards-compatible
16:45:21 <shachaf> I mean, it clears rax on amd64.
16:45:40 <ais523> I was going to ask, what does it do to the top half of rax?
16:45:59 <ais523> IIRC it gets zeroed whenever you do anything that only mentions the bottom half? or is it eax specifically you have to mention?
16:46:18 <shachaf> I think it's any register that only addresses the bottom half.
16:46:32 <vanila> You shoudl read the slides
16:46:45 <shachaf> So when you change ax half of eax stays the same but half of rax gets zeroed.
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16:52:41 <vanila> is subleq self modifying code?
16:52:51 <vanila> must it use self modification to be TC?
16:56:45 <tswett> Pretty sure it must self-modify, yeah.
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16:57:59 <tswett> Hey, have some random Unicode characters.
16:58:41 <tswett> [U+0080 LITIRE DOLOTITINTERCAL] [U+0006 LITIN THETIINTITERIS] [U+0003 LITIN INTERCAL LETTER A] [U+2000 AAALAG DIND] [U+0029 LITIN DACE] [U+0069 LITIN STAL] [U+2034 SMALL TITE STALL] [U+0068 LATIN TINT TINTENTERCAL]
16:58:57 <tswett> I don't know why so many of them contain the word "LITIN".
17:15:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mov]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43251 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+2000) created article about MOV
17:17:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mov]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43252&oldid=43251 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+30) Category:Esoteric subset
17:19:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Esoteric subset]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43253 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+96) Created category page
17:19:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Swearjure]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43254&oldid=42009 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+30) [[Category:Esoteric subset]]
17:19:36 <ais523> someone created a new category
17:19:47 <ais523> do we have to yell at them now?
17:19:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[JSFuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43255&oldid=42019 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+29)
17:21:42 <Taneb> It is against wiki policy to create new categories without discussion
17:27:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43256&oldid=42054 * Cluid Zhasulelm * (+121) added article and wiki
17:32:14 <Taneb> ais523, I am saying, yes, they should be yelled at
17:34:31 <HackEgo> spim/SPIM Pretends It's MIPS
17:34:50 <shachaf> Taneb: invent anything good lately?
17:35:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: yell: not found
17:35:35 <Taneb> shachaf, well, have you heard of Apache Thrift?
17:36:29 <shachaf> You invented Apache Thrift?
17:38:16 <Taneb> I'm not saying I didn't
17:39:53 <Taneb> shachaf, more seriously, I'm going to be doing some research involving Apache Swift over the summer
17:40:08 <shachaf> Is that a cross between Apache Thrift and Apple Swift?
17:40:26 <Taneb> I keep saying Swift instead of Thrift
17:40:38 <Taneb> I blame my speech impediment which may or may not exist
17:41:25 <shachaf> also will you be doing REsearch or reSEARCH?
17:41:34 <Taneb> I think the latter
17:42:00 <Taneb> But it's a sort of guided project to let undergraduates (me) get a taste of research
17:42:08 <Taneb> I don't know the direction it'll take until Wednesday
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17:47:35 <oerjan> <Taneb> I wonder if brainfuck is more easily optimizable with a prime number of possible cell values <-- yes i think so, it removes the special cases where a loop increment has a common factor with the cell size
17:47:59 <HackEgo> grue/grue is the colour of the trees and the ocean
17:48:26 <oerjan> e.g. [-->+<] for 256 cell values needs to distinguish whether the tested cell is odd or even
17:49:56 <oerjan> while for a prime number it indeed turns into a simple field division by 2
17:58:30 <oerjan> <ais523> do we have to yell at them now? <-- yes, you do hth
17:59:02 <ais523> oerjan: hey, you're an admin too!
17:59:19 <oerjan> yes but you mentioned it first hth
17:59:32 <ais523> but we added the rule after observing graue enforcing it, and not wanting other people to be caught out the same way
17:59:49 * oerjan considers laughing maniackally
18:00:12 <ais523> if nobody really wants to enforce it, does it still exist?
18:01:19 <oerjan> do make it not exist, someone has to propose deleting it hth
18:01:41 <oerjan> clearly we cannot have weaker rules for policies than categories.
18:03:18 <ais523> I thought the category rule was our /only/ rule
18:03:25 <ais523> err, other than copyright and similar legal stuff
18:03:38 <oerjan> no, we also have the User: rule hth
18:04:53 <ais523> 1) copyright; 2) ontopic; 3) don't need notability but other people can change your work; 4) the category rule; 5) the User: rule
18:05:03 <ais523> and rule 6) which encourages you to not enforce the others ;-)
18:06:15 <oerjan> not to hide the User: in links to user pages
18:06:22 <ais523> shachaf: if you're linking to a page in userspace, the User: bit of the link must be visible on the page
18:06:36 <ais523> I like that rule and enforce it when I see someone break it (by editing the User: bit into the link)
18:06:43 <ais523> the category rule, it's harder to see what to do if someone breaks it, though
18:07:56 * oerjan looks sternly at Taneb for turning idle just has he joined
18:08:17 <Taneb> oerjan, I just don't really have much to say
18:08:47 <coppro> what's the category rule?
18:09:12 <shachaf> oerjan: he's just thrifty with his words hth
18:09:19 <oerjan> Taneb: well i'm worried that i'm speaking to people who'll never end up seeing it before they ping out
18:09:36 <ais523> coppro: don't create new categories without discussing them first and getting some level of agreement
18:09:49 <ais523> e.g. we got agreement for a "music-based" category, but nobody actually bothered to make it
18:09:53 <shachaf> So? They'll just see what you said when they read the logs.
18:10:21 <oerjan> shachaf: some people do not read the logs. shocking, i know.
18:10:30 <Taneb> shachaf, I do not always read the logs
18:10:48 <shachaf> i refuse to acknowledge the existence of such folks hth
18:11:00 <ais523> incidentally, anyone know why the latest version of Ubuntu opens Abiword every time I log in? the only thing I can think of is that it's the first program in alphabetical order in /usr/share/applications
18:11:21 <coppro> apparently shachaf doesn't believe I exist
18:12:11 <shachaf> ais523: What happens if you make a firster program in /usr/share/applications?
18:12:14 <ais523> actually it's very rare for me to read things said in channel when I'm not here, unless someone explicitly points them to me
18:12:18 <ais523> shachaf: not sure yet, haven't tried
18:12:18 <shachaf> What is the ppid of abiword?
18:12:33 <ais523> not easy to check, I keep closing it out of habit
18:12:36 <ais523> I'll check next time I log in
18:12:59 <shachaf> You can take the opportunity to make another application in /usr/share/applications.
18:13:18 <ais523> yes, the problem being that that's an OS-managed directory
18:13:36 <ais523> meaning that because I don't like breaking the OS's existing abstractions, I'll have to write a program with a name that starts earlier
18:13:43 <ais523> and then package and install it
18:14:15 <shachaf> Are you going to let an OS boss you around like that?
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18:15:00 <ais523> yes, because if you boss around a computer
18:15:03 <ais523> it doesn't mind, it just sometimes doesn't work
18:15:12 <ais523> because you're violating the assumptions the programmer made while programming it
18:16:14 <oerjan> ais523: just see this as an opportunity to write an AAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!! interpreter hth
18:16:24 <ais523> oerjan: it'd need to be GUI tohugh
18:16:33 <ais523> because of what /usr/share/applications /is/
18:16:39 <shachaf> It could just run in a terminal.
18:17:00 <ais523> however, it's quite possible that the bug is only exposed by "the first installed program in alphabetical order is a GUI program"
18:17:09 <ais523> if it were happening to everyone, it would have been noticed by now
18:17:21 <ais523> so it must be something different about my system
18:17:23 <shachaf> "abiword" must be a pretty common first program.
18:17:44 <shachaf> I kind of doubt your hypothesis because why would something run the first program in that directory? But I don't really know.
18:18:46 <shachaf> It could be that it's a "saved session" thing, for instance, where you had Abiword running once and saved that session, and it keeps trying to restore it.
18:19:06 <ais523> shachaf: I thought it might be that, so I grepped my dotfiles for it
18:19:11 <oerjan> shell command run in that directory accidentally missing command name?
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18:19:36 <ais523> and it's not like I use it very much
18:19:49 <HackEgo> bash: ./:-(: Permission denied
18:20:00 <shachaf> oerjan: It's possible, but doesn't abiword look at its command line arguments?
18:20:34 <shachaf> I think you e.g. abiword olist0991.rtf
18:20:41 <Taneb> ais523, is there anything stupid in .bashrc or whatever
18:21:03 <oerjan> shachaf: is that a stealth `olist?
18:21:24 <ais523> Taneb: there's arguably stupid things in my .bashrc, but nothing that stupid
18:21:38 <ais523> also, I log into the desktop
18:21:39 <oerjan> shachaf: it has the right number...
18:21:42 <ais523> so there's no reason my .bashrc would be running
18:21:55 <shachaf> oerjan: yes, presumably this is what rich burlew would run to make the next oots strip
18:22:09 <shachaf> because abiword uses rich's text format by default if i remember correctly
18:22:19 <ais523> I don't think rich burlew makes the comics in abiword
18:22:43 <HackEgo> RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
18:23:04 <ais523> oh right, I'm meant to have all of wisdom memorized now, am I?
18:23:39 <oerjan> ok, you can just memorize those i added, shouldn't be more than 87%
18:24:38 <Taneb> The ones oerjan added, and the Tanebventions, and you are done
18:24:54 <ais523> Taneb: is there anything that you definitively /didn't/ invent?
18:25:03 <oerjan> i assume that stupid nitia guy is what's listed when Gregor (hey he's not even here) deleted the history
18:25:31 <Taneb> ais523, I did not invent and have nothing to do with sex
18:25:35 <oerjan> also he probably didn't invent the cis, although who knows with time travel involved
18:25:47 <pikhq> Guest62171: Why you not Gregor?
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18:28:38 <shachaf> tried to find out who created the most wisdom entries, but it times out
18:29:14 <oerjan> shachaf: as i implied, i suspect a lot of them will have "nitia" as the oldest entry
18:29:25 <shachaf> but i wanted to see anyway hth
18:29:41 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/tanebvention
18:29:43 <HackEgo> oerjan Taneb oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan FireFly oerjan boily oerjan ais523 ais523 oerjan
18:30:04 <ais523> I've edited tanebvention?
18:30:27 <oerjan> ais523: that may just be `reverts
18:30:43 <oerjan> `url wisdom/tanebvention
18:30:47 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/tanebvention
18:31:28 <ais523> I thought that `revert was confused by the canary directory
18:31:30 <oerjan> you're not listed in the substantial ones
18:31:56 <ais523> it also still seems to wrok
18:32:07 <oerjan> also, i don't think it confuses its actual _working_, it just gives a spurious error message.
18:32:08 <ais523> not sure if we broke it permanently or if it's a transient thing
18:32:11 <oerjan> it has other bugs, though.
18:32:13 <shachaf> except when it doesn't work
18:32:21 <shachaf> e.g. when you revert creating a file or something
18:32:28 <shachaf> complete scow if you ask me
18:33:01 <oerjan> ais523: i suspect fizzie or Guest62171 just need to rm -r canary.orig, whereever that directory got stuck
18:34:16 <oerjan> i suspect there's a "cp canary .../canary.orig; ...; rm .../canary.orig" workflow where the last command broke when we made canary a directory
18:34:30 <oerjan> and has stayed broken since
18:34:46 <oerjan> because canary.orig never gets deleted by anything else
18:34:49 <shachaf> `rmdir .hg/store/data/canary.orig
18:34:50 <HackEgo> rmdir: failed to remove `.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Read-only file system
18:34:55 <ais523> oerjan: the "cp" would break too in that case, though
18:35:12 <oerjan> and as shachaf demonstrated, it cannot be done from inside the sandbox
18:35:15 <ais523> `` rm -r canary; touch canary
18:35:20 <oerjan> ais523: well it could have been mv
18:35:33 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
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18:35:39 <oerjan> ais523: um canary hasn't been a directory for some time
18:35:39 <HackEgo> cat: test2: No such file or directory
18:35:48 <ais523> oerjan: oh, someone changed it back?
18:35:59 <oerjan> i did, in the hope of getting rid of the error
18:36:17 <ais523> `` rm canary; mkfifo canary
18:36:32 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
18:36:35 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
18:36:37 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 0 Jun 21 18:38 canary
18:36:48 <ais523> looks like the canary can't be a fifo either
18:37:01 <shachaf> `` rm canary; ln -s .hg/store/data/canary.orig canary
18:37:21 <ais523> anyway, Guest62171: looks like I /did/ manage to permanently break/damage HackEgo from inside it (if accidentally), what do I win?
18:39:37 <shachaf> Wait, I thought I was the one who had messed it up.
18:39:50 <oerjan> i have a hunch Guest62171 is as idle as ever.
18:39:57 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 26 Jun 21 18:39 canary -> .hg/store/data/canary.orig
18:40:05 <ais523> wait, you made the canary a symlink?
18:40:10 <ais523> is the destination relevant to this?
18:40:13 <shachaf> But I made it a directory before.
18:40:15 <ais523> shachaf: normally if you tried to do that
18:40:17 <oerjan> shachaf: hm it's possible that since it's in the repository, the file gets regenerated when a proper checkout is done.
18:40:18 <ais523> it failed due to the canary check
18:40:21 <ais523> I made it a directory before too
18:40:25 <shachaf> Apparently you made it a directory in 2012?
18:40:39 <shachaf> I didn't know that, I made it a directory a couple of weeks ago.
18:40:42 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 26 Jun 21 18:42 canary -> .hg/store/data/canary.orig
18:40:46 <ais523> shachaf: it was about the same time
18:40:50 <ais523> we might both have been in the same discussion?
18:40:59 <ais523> `` rm canary; ls -l canary /bin/\?
18:41:01 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory \ ls: cannot access /bin/?: No such file or directory
18:41:05 <shachaf> `` hg log --removed canary | grep mkdir
18:41:07 <ais523> `` rm canary; ls -l bin/\? canary
18:41:08 <HackEgo> summary: <shachaf> ` rm canary; mkdir canary \ summary: <elliott> rm canary; mkdir canary; touch canary/hmm \ summary: <elliott> rm canary; mkdir canary; touch canary/hmm \ summary: <ais523> run rm canary && mkdir canary
18:41:09 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access canary: No such file or directory \ -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 372 Jun 21 02:47 bin/?
18:41:20 <ais523> `` rm canary; ln -s bin/\? canary
18:41:27 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Jun 21 18:43 canary -> bin/?
18:41:33 <ais523> OK, looks like it can be a symlink
18:41:42 <ais523> `` rm canary; ln -s canary canary
18:41:47 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Jun 21 18:43 canary -> bin/?
18:42:03 <ais523> or, hmm, not a circular one
18:42:15 <ais523> `` rm canary; ln -s /.nonexistent canary
18:42:20 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Jun 21 18:44 canary -> bin/?
18:42:24 <ais523> not a broken one either
18:43:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: source: not found
18:44:25 <shachaf> https://bitbucket.org/GregorR/hackbot/src/tip/multibot_cmds/lib/revert
18:44:53 <oerjan> all this is rather moot until either fizzie or Gregor reactivates. fizzie already promised to have a look.
18:46:53 <oerjan> i suspect canary.orig is not and never has been in the actual /hackenv/ directory.
18:47:18 <ais523> " Finding Turing-completeness in unlikely places has long been a pastime of bored computer scientists"
18:47:39 <ais523> (from the paper that describes the algorithm that movfuscator implements)
18:48:29 <oerjan> no one can accuse us of not following tradition
18:48:48 <vanila> mov is turing complete
18:49:10 * oerjan wonders wtf shachaf is trying to do
18:49:28 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
18:49:51 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access file.orig: No such file or directory
18:51:23 <oerjan> ...i thought HackEgo ignored empty files, but touch file.orig showed up in the browser.
18:51:39 <shachaf> How does .hg/store/data work?
18:51:48 <oerjan> it's a wonder it hasn't collapsed a long time ago.
18:52:10 <oerjan> shachaf: by being outside the sandbox, for a start?
18:52:36 <shachaf> Ignoring the sandbox, what is it supposed to do?
18:53:12 <oerjan> an excellent question. next question please...
18:53:19 * oerjan should probably eat some.
18:54:11 <shachaf> OK, so the problem wasn't caused by canary being a directory, it was caused by making files inside that directory.
18:55:06 <Taneb> shachaf, btw I can get to SF and back for £300 or so
18:55:26 <ais523> shachaf: it's recursively copying the canary, then non-recursively deleting it?
18:55:42 <shachaf> Or maybe it was caused by there being files inside canary.orig.
18:55:55 <shachaf> I should figure out how mercurial works before making these claims.
18:56:28 <vanila> anyone see thaht mov based obfuscator?
18:56:51 <vanila> there's a crackme in there
18:56:52 <ais523> vanila: it was linked earlier
18:57:03 <ais523> I saw there was a file named crackme but I don't know what that is
18:57:13 <vanila> ais523, it's a program that wants a password
18:57:23 <vanila> and you're supposed to try to figure out the password from the binary
18:57:40 <vanila> but it was compiled with lcc to mov instructions
18:57:42 <ais523> in theory it could implement a cryptohash
18:57:55 <vanila> so you have to decode mov instructions somehowe
18:57:58 <ais523> although for it to be an interesting problem, it probably doesn't
18:59:25 <vanila> it's hard to reverse engineer
19:02:58 <gamemanj> Actually, I'll take a chance and run it... *WARN: NOT GOOD SECURITY PRACTICE*
19:03:53 <shachaf> Looks like the canary problem is unsolvable without rewriting history hth
19:04:22 <vanila> what are you talking aboutL?
19:06:29 <shachaf> Well, or better, rewriting `revert to exclude .hg
19:07:45 <shachaf> `revert searches hackenv for files ending in .orig
19:07:51 <shachaf> But it also searches .hg for them
19:08:33 <shachaf> And .hg/store/data/canary.orig/....i just means that there was ever a canary.orig directory with files in it in the repository.
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19:10:31 <oerjan> <oerjan> it's a wonder it hasn't collapsed a long time ago.
19:10:55 <shachaf> fizzie: ☝ you just need to fix `revert hth
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19:44:53 <myname> name a simple 1d language with few tokens but at least some of them larger than one character
19:45:40 <ais523> in Ook they're all the same length though
19:45:52 <ais523> does Forte count? it might be a bit too complex though
19:46:01 <fowl> At least some of them are larger than one char
19:46:42 <Taneb> myname, BIT, Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
19:47:05 <ais523> fowl: I know, it fits the letter of the request, but might not fit for what myname intended to ask
19:47:16 <ais523> normally I try to come up with a useful answer rather than a literal one
19:47:21 <ais523> (unless the literal answer is /really/ amusing)
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19:47:50 <ais523> because I assume the question is in the context of testing a lexer framework (it is possible that the lexer framework in question is myname's brain)
19:48:06 <myname> ais523: you are absolutely right
19:48:57 <ais523> I said that was possible, not that it was certain
19:49:08 <ais523> i.e. I was generalizing the assumption to not require the lexer framework to be computer-based
19:49:25 <ais523> myname: is this similar to lex in the way it works / the input you give it? or is it entirely different? I can believe either
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20:09:52 <vanila> yo ucould make a esolang that's just mov
20:10:01 -!- MoALTz__ has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
20:10:11 <ais523> vanila: the wireworld computer is that, bascially
20:12:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Nite).
20:16:14 <tswett> myname: well, there's Al Dente.
20:16:42 <tswett> Widely agreed to be the best esolang ever created.
20:18:10 <tswett> I mean that that fact has been asserted by at least one person who is physically larger than the average person.
20:19:02 <tswett> The lexical stuff is defined by the following paragraph from the wiki:
20:19:03 <tswett> An Al Dente program consists of a sequence of tokens, optionally separated by whitespace. A token is a brace, a parenthesis, a semicolon, a period, or a case-sensitive sequence of English letters. A sequence of letters beginning with an uppercase letter is a class identifier; a sequence of letters beginning with a lowercase letter is a variable, unless it is one of the keywords "matches", "requires", "excludes", "and", or "or". Letter sequences must
20:19:03 <tswett> be separated by whitespace. Whitespace has no significance besides separating tokens.
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20:35:20 <Taneb> `relcome hppavilion1
20:35:23 <HackEgo> hppavilion1: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:39:10 <vanila> wmelcombe back hppavilion1
20:39:19 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:39:27 <ais523> Taneb: you do know I have colours filtered, right?
20:39:39 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:41:41 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:42:07 <HackEgo> ais523: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:42:13 <vanila> please don't spam with the bot
20:42:14 <Taneb> (sorry, I'll stop now)
20:42:39 -!- hilquias has joined.
20:42:44 <ais523> Taneb: too many stupid welcome variants is part of the reason I left #esoteric last time
20:42:53 -!- hppavilion1 has joined.
20:43:17 <vanila> any esolang stuff going on
20:43:34 <hppavilion1> Well I'm making a marginally-esoteric (but more useful) language
20:43:45 <hppavilion1> If you would like to contribute to its repo that'd work
20:44:05 <vanila> what sort of language is it
20:44:56 <hppavilion1> It's a language where you can do black magic like define functions that behave like complex statements
20:45:20 <hppavilion1> https://github.com/TheGloriousRepublic/Purely-Functional-Imperative-Language
20:45:28 <hppavilion1> I'm not implementing it, but I'm writing the specs
20:46:47 <ais523> well, languages like OCaml have empty tuples with side effects as their command type
20:49:13 <ais523> that seems like something pretty minor to kill over
20:49:42 <hppavilion1> I wish webchat made a noise when someone messaged
20:50:45 <hppavilion1> I'm trying to implement all the computable brainfuck derivatives I can in python
20:51:34 <ais523> I need to spec up Statistical Brainfuck at some point
20:52:03 <ais523> it's brainfuck except that it tries to interpret its input as eight different commands, then works out which is which based on things like [ and ] matching
20:52:22 <ais523> the idea being that it should automatically implement as many brainfuck equivalents as possible
20:52:34 <hppavilion1> You know what we need more of that I actually need to say?
20:52:38 <ais523> if it can't figure out what the program does at all, it just prints "Hello, world!"
20:55:00 <hppavilion1> If someone makes an Esoteric Markup Language, I'll try to make an Esoteric StyleSheet Language
20:58:59 <vanila> i can't imagine an eso markup language
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20:59:21 <vanila> i gues IRC color codes are kind of esoteric
20:59:35 <vanila> beacuse they're out of normal bounds chars
21:00:28 <hppavilion1> The value of the cell corresponding to each letter describes that the letter should be bold if n>0, else n is normal weight
21:02:13 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:02:20 <hppavilion1> A better example would use the individual bits in a cell
21:03:03 <hppavilion1> 1: bold, 2: italics, 3: underline, 4-11: text size, 12-35: color
21:06:40 <hppavilion1> Modifiers are one symbol prefixed by a section sign
21:21:12 <ais523> we've discussed it before now
21:21:18 <ais523> apparently it was chosen ages ago to be easy to remember
21:23:15 <ais523> are you going to change nick now?
21:23:23 <ais523> (maybe buy a new one and becoe hppavilion2?)
21:23:31 <ais523> or is this here to stay
21:23:54 <HackEgo> irrelevant info/KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
21:24:29 -!- Andrej_T_ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
21:26:11 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
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21:45:49 <nys> quit highlightin me..
21:47:07 <hppavilion1> The asterisk doesn't alert everyone every time it's used, does ti?
21:47:33 <hppavilion1> It at least has to be padded by spaces, right?
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21:49:02 <nys> i'm just joshin your chain
21:51:45 <nys> ding ding dingdingding ding ding
21:53:03 <coppro> I've invented a new kind of morse code, it's more compact
21:53:16 <coppro> what you do is get rid of all the dots and replace them with nothing, and do the same for dashes
21:53:20 <coppro> infinite compression!!1!1
22:14:38 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
22:28:22 <Sgeo_> What just happened?
22:30:39 <shachaf> `` for u in $(culprits quotes); do echo "$u"; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn
22:30:41 <HackEgo> 328 elliott \ 314 oerjan \ 75 kmc \ 72 shachaf \ 49 ais523 \ 40 coppro \ 26 monqy \ 15 boily \ 14 GreyKnight \ 13 Phantom_Hoover \ 12 Taneb \ 11 shubshub \ 11 quintopia \ 11 Gregor \ 9 fizzie \ 8 mnoqy \ 8 FireFly \ 8 Fiora \ 8 ell
22:30:50 <shachaf> `` for u in $(culprits quotes); do echo "$u"; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | xargs
22:30:51 <HackEgo> 328 elliott 314 oerjan 75 kmc 72 shachaf 49 ais523 40 coppro 26 monqy 15 boily 14 GreyKnight 13 Phantom_Hoover 12 Taneb 11 shubshub 11 quintopia 11 Gregor 9 fizzie 8 mnoqy 8 FireFly 8 Fiora 8 elliott___ 7 Sgeo 7 ion 6 hagb4rd 5 ranc 5 olsner 5 elliott_ 4 RocketJSquirrel 4 Jafet 3 tswett 3 elliott__ 2 pikhq_ 2 nortti 2
22:31:01 <FireFly> Great, now I'm highlighted in lines I can't even see
22:31:31 <shachaf> Oh, right, weechat highlights you.
22:32:05 <FireFly> And mosh messes up astral unicode codepoints because glibc sucks
22:32:13 <FireFly> so the first of those lines is invisible to me
22:32:27 <FireFly> I assumed it was that bug again
22:32:41 <FireFly> maybe it's something else this time
22:32:55 <FireFly> `` for u in $(culprits quotes); do echo "$u"; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | hexd
22:32:59 <HackEgo> bash: hexd: command not found
22:33:01 <FireFly> `` for u in $(culprits quotes); do echo "$u"; done | sort | uniq -c | sort -rn | hexdump -C
22:33:03 <HackEgo> 00000000 20 20 20 20 33 32 38 20 65 6c 6c 69 6f 74 0f 74 | 328 elliot.t| \ 00000010 0a 20 20 20 20 33 31 34 20 6f 65 72 6a 61 0f 6e |. 314 oerja.n| \ 00000020 0a 20 20 20 20 20 37 35 20 6b 6d 0f 63 0a 20 20 |. 75 km.c. | \ 00000030 20 20 20 37 32 20 73 68 61 63 68 61 0f 66 0a 20 | 72 shacha.f. | \ 00000040 20 20 20 20 34 3
22:33:05 <pikhq> How does glibc mess up astral codepoints?!?
22:33:28 <vanila> can I see the astral codepoints?
22:33:29 <FireFly> Its wcwidth returns -1 for all of them last I checked
22:33:32 <pikhq> ... You're kidding me, right?
22:33:43 <FireFly> It's supposedly fixed in the next release, I hear
22:33:52 <FireFly> After two years or so since I first heard the problem reported
22:34:32 <vanila> var regexAstralSymbols = /[\uD800-\uDBFF][\uDC00-\uDFFF]/g;
22:35:08 <FireFly> https://github.com/keithw/mosh/issues/234 it's been an issue for at least three years
22:35:27 <pikhq> What the *ever loving fuck*.
22:36:12 <shachaf> `gccrun printf("%d\n", wcwidth('\b'));
22:36:30 <shachaf> But that's not special to backspace, it's just because it's not a printable character or something.
22:37:22 <FireFly> Soon I'll be able to see these fancy emoji on IRC, too
22:40:18 <pikhq> How in the world is glibc this broken on such a simple thing?
22:42:54 <FireFly> callforjudgement: looks like a JavaScript snippet. Which makes sense, because JS uses UCS-2
22:43:08 <pikhq> In conclusion, you should use musl.
22:43:22 <FireFly> So, matching 16-bit surrogate pairs
22:43:22 <callforjudgement> FireFly: right, so it's implementing UTF-16 on top of a UCS-2 underlying representation
22:44:30 <FireFly> It annoys me when universally bad behaviour is spec'd because of historical reasons
22:45:00 <callforjudgement> as opposed to universally bad behaviour being spec'd because this is #esoteric and we like that behaviour sometimes?
22:46:53 <shachaf> I don't think many esoteric languages are bad in the way backwards compatibility and lack of foresight and so on make things bad.
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22:49:26 <pikhq> It annoys me when someone fails to implement behavior from 14 years ago.
22:49:58 <pikhq> (U+20000 has a wcwidth of -1 in glibc. That character is *literally 14 years old*.)
22:50:33 <callforjudgement> pikhq: oh, I misread that as U+200000 and thought "isn't that out of range?"
22:51:32 <pikhq> No, it's a CJK codepoint.
22:52:10 <shachaf> > [base n # 1114111 | n <- [2..36]]
22:52:11 <lambdabot> ["100001111111111111111","2002121021101","10033333333","241122421","35513531...
22:52:16 <shachaf> > filter (\s -> s == reverse s) [base n # 1114111 | n <- [2..36]]
22:52:20 <vanila> i don't have a luck producing it in javascript
22:53:15 <shachaf> Why don't we use base 36, anyway?
22:53:53 <callforjudgement> vanila: normally if you're going astral planes, you need a capital U and 8 hex digits
22:54:06 <callforjudgement> many languages (e.g. C) define \u to take exactly 4 digits as an argument
22:54:18 <shachaf> callforjudgement: Maximal munch is an obviously superior strategy.
22:54:48 <FireFly> Breaks backwards-compatibility with stuff like \uXXXXABC
22:54:58 <shachaf> GHC uses \& for a length-0 escape sequence
22:55:31 <FireFly> callforjudgement: bizarre.. why does it do that?
22:55:37 <FireFly> I thought only Java did that..
22:55:59 * pikhq keeps WTFing at glibc
22:56:10 <FireFly> trigraphs at least help you write mandatory characters
22:56:38 <FireFly> you won't use \u00C8 in an identifier to make it easier to read, rather than ASCIIfying into ae or something
22:57:52 <callforjudgement> but anyway, I think the purpose of trigraphs is so that you can send C programs between different systems and not be corrupted
22:57:53 -!- hilquias has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
22:58:33 <pikhq> The trigraph-encoded chars have different encodings in different EBCDIC variants.
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23:00:16 <tswett> callforjudgement: that regex matches a single Unicode character above 0xFFFF, assuming that the regex is run on "naively interpreted UTF-16".
23:00:40 <tswett> Where "naively interpreted UTF-16" is where you just pretend that every pair of bytes represents itself as a Unicode character.
23:00:51 <FireFly> Which is UCS-2, i.e. what JS uses
23:01:15 <lambdabot> lexical error in string/character literal at end of input
23:01:33 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use TemplateHaskell
23:01:33 <lambdabot> In the Template Haskell quotation 'h
23:01:57 <tswett> Wait, a Template Haskell quotation?
23:02:00 <j-bot> FireFly: too much J
23:10:25 <tswett> > "\ \ \ \\ \ \\ \ \ \ \ \\ \ \\ \ "
23:22:41 <int-e> Oh, it's just the result of a `learn you a haskell ... kind of disappointing
23:24:22 <shachaf> I didn't actually realize where nitia came from.
23:24:23 <int-e> (but it had survived for 55 months)
23:24:54 <shachaf> do i get some sort of cluelessness points
23:25:19 <HackEgo> changeset: 0:e037173e0012 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Feb 16 19:42:32 2012 +0000 \ summary: Initial import.
23:26:23 <HackEgo> cat: .doorstop: No such file or directory
23:26:47 <HackEgo> You do not have the clearance necessary to view this entry.
23:26:50 <HackEgo> Thanks, learn you. Thearn you.
23:27:01 <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't you tell me twhh
23:27:57 <int-e> it's so much more rewarding to figure stuff out oneself (I didn't. sigh)
23:28:39 <shachaf> `thanks for nothing, FireFly
23:28:40 <HackEgo> Thanks, for nothing, FireFly. Thor nothing, FireFly.
23:30:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: hug: not found
23:30:48 <lambdabot> http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/ghc/newticket?type=bug
23:31:01 <HackEgo> oerjan coppro boily boily boily ais523 Taneb oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan elliott oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 Taneb oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan int-e coppro elliott elliott oerjan oerjan elliott elliott elliott fizzie fizzie elliott_ oerjan oerjan fizzie int-e GeekD
23:32:01 <HackEgo> changeset: 6:ccdf9cad822f \ parent: 5:63d2d701a0e1 \ parent: 4:b606d4f08d31 \ user: HackBot \ date: Wed Feb 22 16:59:18 2012 +0000 \ summary: branch merge
23:35:12 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | grep -v '<'
23:36:03 <shachaf> `` hg log | grep summary: | grep -v '<'
23:36:06 <HackEgo> summary: testing manually \ summary: - \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch merge \ summary: branch m
23:37:09 <shachaf> `culprits useless_file.txt
23:41:02 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "why $1 is like wtf"
23:47:18 -!- vanila has quit (Quit: Leaving).
23:50:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: bless: not found
23:50:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: blessyou: not found
23:50:55 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ $_ = (join " ", @ARGV) || `words`; s/^\s+|\s+$//g; print "Thanks, $_. "; if (/[aeiouyAEIOUY]/) { s/^[^aeiouyAEIOUY]*/Th/; } else { s/^./T/; } print "$_.";
23:53:46 <fowl> `thanks abcdefg
23:53:47 <HackEgo> Thanks, abcdefg. Thabcdefg.
23:55:00 <tswett> `run sed -e 's_Thanks_Bless you_' -e 's_/Th/_/Bl/_' -e 's_/T/_/B/_' < bin/thanks > bin/blessyou
23:55:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /hackenv/bin/blessyou: Permission denied \ /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: /hackenv/bin/blessyou: cannot execute: Permission denied
23:55:16 <tswett> `run chmod +x bin/blessyou
23:55:27 <HackEgo> Bless you, frlgbr. Brlgbr.
23:57:32 <fowl> How do you simulate add, sub, mul, div in mov instructions
23:57:55 <tswett> I think you pretty much have two options.
23:58:18 <tswett> One, use special registers that automatically add, subtract, whatever you write to them.
23:58:25 <tswett> (The WireWorld solution.)
23:59:04 <tswett> Two, forget about performing arithmetic with words, and instead represent a number using several words.
23:59:29 <tswett> (The ByteByteJump solution.)
00:00:38 <tswett> Actually, I don't think you really have to do that with ByteByteJump.
00:00:57 <tswett> But if you want to add or multiply two bytes in ByteByteJump, you have to do it using a lookup table.
00:02:28 <tswett> I was forgetting that ByteByteJump allows you to break up a word into its component bytes.
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00:09:11 <shachaf> `learn nitia is the creator of all things. The BBC invented her.
00:09:16 <HackEgo> Learned 'nitia': nitia is the creator of all things. The BBC invented her.
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00:29:28 <zzo38> Do you know what /HNAP1/ and /TEADevInfo/ are?
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00:36:51 <Sgeo_> "Unicode® 9.0.5, Supplementary Private Use Area A, Block U+F3000..U+F37FF, "People Who Are Also Code Points Somehow""
00:42:50 <zzo38> People are also code points?
00:43:28 <tswett> The best known example is probably Bill Clinton, U+F3202.
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01:04:59 <Sgeo_> Hardware or software problem? If hardware, my advice (that I got from others yelling at me) is to stop using it until ready to recover all data
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01:10:47 <Sgeo_> Hardware or software problem? If hardware, my advice (that I got from others yelling at me) is to stop using it until ready to recover all data
01:11:25 <shachaf> Sgeo_: Are you a hardcore PC gamer yet?
01:12:38 <Sgeo_> Most games I play these days don't use the GPU that extensively, and the one thing that will next year (Oculus Rift CV1) requires a GPU more powerful than the one in this expensive machine :(
01:19:51 <hppavilion1> I already took it to the geek squad and they couldn't fix it
01:20:22 <hppavilion1> Or more accurately, couldn't recover the data
01:20:38 <hppavilion1> Luckily I've been saving EVERYTHING on github
01:27:50 <Sgeo_> Including passwords?
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01:55:37 <Sgeo_> Even the passwords? Especially the passwords!
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02:25:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art/mandelbrot]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43257 * Esowiki201529A * (+2850) Created page with "<pre> .; '^e ._\ ..."
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03:25:43 <tswett> Hey everyone, I think I might have stumbled upon the most important truth of the universe.
03:25:55 <zzo38> Are you sure there is such a thing?
03:26:43 <zzo38> Do you know how to write it down, what is what you believe is most important truth of the universe? (If so, then probably it isn't, but mention it anyways)
03:27:11 <shachaf> zzo38: Why probably it isn't?
03:27:22 <Sgeo_> Hardware advice: Do the opposite of any hardware advice I give.
03:28:16 <zzo38> Well, that's just my opinion though. Don't let that to stop you from trying to figure out such things.
03:28:30 <tswett> Lemme try to state one aspect of it.
03:30:03 <tswett> All meaningful beliefs (regardless of whether or not they're mathematically well-defined) amount to a belief in the existence of an instance of a given class of phenomena.
03:30:08 <tswett> Furthermore, this point of view is useful.
03:31:04 <tswett> Of course, I have no right to claim that this point of view *actually is* useful. It kinda feels that way, but I have no evidence or arguments backing this feeling up.
03:31:06 <shachaf> I.e. is it true that everything exists, or that there are some things that exist and there are other things that don't exist?
03:31:54 <tswett> I'd say the former. There's no such thing as a "thing that doesn't exist".
03:32:31 <shachaf> Raymond Smullyan talks about it in _5000 B.C._
03:35:55 <zzo38> Don't be so sure...there is the kind of physical existence, and mathematical existence, and multiverses, and whatever; and then when you come to "GOD exists" it is such unclear what "existence" even is here (as well as what "GOD" even is here, but that's not the point).
03:36:19 <nys> reminds me of reading spinoza
03:36:44 <shachaf> Is "GOD" different from other capitalizations?
03:37:33 <zzo38> I do that way to hope to make it clear to me at least, because I am panendeist and not like many other people's idea of "God" anyways, so I make it full caps
03:38:23 <zzo38> (I am not even an ordinary panendeist either really, I suppose...?)
03:43:32 <tswett> Y'know what, pretend I said "occurrence" instead of "existence".
03:45:35 <zzo38> Do you mean: "... a belief in the occurrence of an instance ..."?
03:52:07 <Sgeo_> What non-meaningful beliefs exist in the wild?
03:52:54 <tswett> Beliefs that have false presuppositions would be one example.
03:53:14 <tswett> Suppose someone believes, for no reason, that they have a daughter, and that their daughter has red hair.
03:53:37 <tswett> The belief that their daughter has red hair is non-meaningful, because they don't have a daughter.
03:53:57 <tswett> Then again, that belief, though meaningless, *does* amount to a belief in the occurrence of an instance of a given class of phenomena.
03:54:06 <tswett> That class of phenomena being "redness of hair".
03:54:18 <tswett> Or maybe I should say "rednesses of hair".
03:54:33 <zzo38> But you didn't even say about meaningless belief, so I suppose it can be OK in case some do.
03:54:40 <Sgeo_> So the meaningfulness of a belief can hinge solely on the truth-value of another belief? I'm not sure that makes sense
03:54:57 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I am not so sure either, actually...?
03:55:29 <tswett> Anyway, I'm gonna slink back into my channel and revolutionize philosophy.
03:56:05 <zzo38> OK, write some more book about philosophy.
03:56:52 <zzo38> One book I have about philosophy, one thing it says, someone said you can write a serious philosophical text consisting entirely of jokes. And they also said you can write a serious philosophical text consisting entirely of questions (without answers).
03:57:08 <zzo38> At least first one I know is possible because it has been done (the Principia Discordia).
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05:13:47 <zzo38> He who lives by the sword, dies by the gun. He who lives by the gun, dies by the _______
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06:57:35 <Taneb> I need to sort out my life
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06:57:45 <Taneb> I don't tend to do anything until I get really frustrated
06:58:50 <Taneb> Like, "why the hell am I still in bed?" or "why the hell have I not shaved in three weeks?"
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07:39:19 <oerjan> @ask tswett Just to clear something up, are you physically larger than the average person twh
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07:54:52 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
07:55:17 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:55:37 <oerjan> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:56:20 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: what's all this <-- I don't remember hth
07:57:16 <oerjan> `hg log wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:57:19 <HackEgo> hg: unknown command 'log wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR' \ Mercurial Distributed SCM \ \ basic commands: \ \ add add the specified files on the next commit \ annotate show changeset information by line for each file \ clone make a copy of an existing repository \ commit commit the specified files or all outstanding changes \ d
07:57:34 <oerjan> `` hg log wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
07:57:35 <HackEgo> changeset: 5014:66f6a5ade413 \ user: HackBot \ date: Thu Oct 02 04:37:09 2014 +0000 \ summary: <oerjan> echo \'Who told you this?\' >wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
08:02:22 <HackEgo> The password of the month is 'PlayItSweetly,TakeMeDown,Oh,Jazzman'
08:02:36 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/password
08:02:39 <HackEgo> mroman oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman_
08:04:47 <oerjan> @tell shachaf Actually, it was the password. Ask mroman_.
08:06:33 <oerjan> `` ls -l wisdom/'irrelevant info'
08:06:34 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 10485760 Apr 15 07:51 wisdom/irrelevant info
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08:16:46 <lambdabot> (Integral a, Applicative f, Choice p) => Int -> p a (f a) -> p String (f String)
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08:35:43 <J_Arcane> I have shaved a sheep. https://twitter.com/J_Arcane/status/612890396985831424
08:35:50 <oerjan> <int-e> (but it had survived for 55 months) <-- shachaf can be so brutal :(
08:37:34 <HackEgo> hg log --removed "$1" | grep summary: | awk '{print substr($2,2,length($2)-2)}' | sed "s/.$/\x0F&/" | xargs
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08:40:03 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't you tell me twhh <-- (1) i didn't realize (2) it was your program (3) i don't really know awk hth
08:41:23 <HackEgo> nitia is the creator of all things. The BBC invented her.
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09:58:39 <mroman_> World War Z was a very disappointing movie.
09:59:28 <mroman_> I thought it was just recently in the cinemas... but it appears to be from 2013 o_O
10:00:21 <fowl> World War Z (2013) - IMDb
10:00:55 <fowl> nice movie sense
10:01:16 <mroman_> It mixes up things in time.
10:03:28 <fowl> outside of what you presumed, when you experienced it you judged it correctly :D
10:04:04 <fowl> zombie outbreak yet brad pitt catches 4 flights crashes and survives all of them
10:05:04 <mroman_> super fast walking zombies
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10:06:00 <mroman_> They are supposedly "undead".
10:06:29 <mroman_> undead should be a synonym for "alive".
10:07:23 <mroman_> How to make somebody undead: Infect the person with rabbies and make it not feel pain
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10:07:48 <mroman_> People infected with rabbies behave really cool
10:09:04 <mroman_> and it can lay dormant for 5 years
10:09:44 <mroman_> unlike the zombies in World War Z in which zombification happens in a matter of seconds.
10:12:34 <fowl> did you just wake up from hypersleep?
10:12:41 <fowl> there was supposed to be a guy to greet you
10:13:04 <fowl> was that my job
10:14:12 <mroman_> Are you often in #esoteric?
10:14:54 <fowl> i dont know why im here
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10:19:23 <mroman_> I remember watching Fast & Furiuos 7
10:20:00 <mroman_> and I remember it as pretty boring
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10:39:01 <oerjan> <mroman_> It mixes up things in time. <-- do you remember things from the future? inquiring minds want to know!
10:39:21 <boily> hellørjan. mroman_'s a time-travelling agent?
10:40:39 <oerjan> boily: his memory is disconnected from time
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10:41:11 <HackEgo> No one was ever called Elliot.
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10:41:37 <HackEgo> Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
10:41:37 -!- izabera has joined.
10:41:41 * oerjan doesn't know where elliott is either...
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10:43:09 <oerjan> `Learn Eliott completes the set of stupid spellings.
10:43:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Learn: not found
10:43:14 <oerjan> `learn Eliott completes the set of stupid spellings.
10:43:17 <HackEgo> Learned 'eliott': Eliott completes the set of stupid spellings.
10:44:04 <boily> haven't seen him in a while.
10:44:20 <boily> @ask elliott where do you happen to be at hth
10:44:41 <oerjan> afaik he's not been on freenode at all for a while, so lambdabot is unlikely to help
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11:05:21 <b_jonas> "We provide source code distributions in a variety of archive types. Generally, speaking, Windows users should download .zip files. Users of all other operating systems should download .tar.gz or .tar.bz2 files." -- huh, why would I do that? if it's mostly source code, the .bz2 files will be 60% the size of the .zip files, I won't download zips even on windows when the bz2 is there.
11:06:07 <myname> because windows users need a program to extract tar.bz2 that isn't typically there?
11:06:27 <b_jonas> it's there. it's among the first thing I install, ever.
11:06:51 <b_jonas> and if I want to download this source code thing from the internet, I may as well download 7z first
11:07:01 <scoofy> well, >you< install it.
11:07:33 <scoofy> how much do you pay per MB of bandwidth?
11:08:06 <b_jonas> scoofy: the bandwidth doesn't matter, but my disk space isn't free, and I won't recompress everything I download
11:08:22 <scoofy> how much do you pay for disk space per MB? $0.02 ?
11:08:51 <b_jonas> no, it's a company machine, disk space there costs much more than on my home machine
11:09:30 <scoofy> do the company charge you extra?
11:10:04 <b_jonas> and I have like four gigabytes of installers, many of them large tarballs or zips of a hundred megabyte size, though they're mostly binaries, not source code
11:10:43 <b_jonas> mind you, the compression probably matters only for those few very large installers, not these small ones
11:10:51 <b_jonas> so for these ones I could get the zip
11:11:18 <scoofy> http://img.izismile.com/img/img3/20100923/640/ancient_computer_ads_640_high_08.jpg
11:12:47 <scoofy> a 8GB pendrive costs $5 on ebay
11:13:30 <b_jonas> sure, the kind that's slow and unreliable. storage costs much more when you want it fast and redundant with backups.
11:14:48 <scoofy> well, you don't get something for nothing
11:15:09 <scoofy> for redundancy, you'd need 2 pendrives. that'd be $10.
11:16:03 <scoofy> or Google Drive, gives you 15 GB storage for free.
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11:18:33 <b_jonas> don't be ridiculous, I have 700 gigabytes of data just on this workstation, half of it hard to reproduce video data, I need real hard disks, fast and reliable, not pendrive junk
11:19:45 <b_jonas> those cost about 128 EUR per two terabyte disk
11:20:04 <b_jonas> (that's an approximate prize, not an offer)
11:20:23 <b_jonas> (imagine "not for sale" written accross the image in red letters)
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11:25:28 <scoofy> "Average Cost Per Gigabyte" - year 2014: $0.03
11:25:39 <scoofy> http://www.statisticbrain.com/average-cost-of-hard-drive-storage/
11:26:20 <scoofy> and you whine about some 1MB installer being .zip and not .bz2
11:26:34 <b_jonas> it's not some 1 MB installer. I said I have 100 MB installers.
11:26:37 <scoofy> s/installer/source package/
11:26:40 <b_jonas> the 1 MB installers don't matter
11:26:58 <scoofy> so... if 1 GB HDD storage costs $0.03, then.... 100 MB installers storage cost is.. $0.003
11:27:04 <scoofy> less than the price of a chewing gum
11:27:41 <scoofy> and you have 2 terabyte disks anyways, to store your 700 GB of videos
11:27:54 <b_jonas> no, twice as much, the "average cost per gigabyte" is made up mostly of unreliable or slow hard disks, or hard disks bought in hundreds for data centers in which case they get it cheaper
11:28:07 <scoofy> okay, sorry. then it costs $0.006
11:28:23 <b_jonas> nah, 400 GB of videos locally on this workstation, there's more on the big servers
11:28:33 <b_jonas> the other 300 GB is not videos but miscellaneous data
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11:29:11 <scoofy> anf you have "like four gigabytes of installers"
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11:29:21 <scoofy> so that's <1% of all your data on your local workstation
11:29:50 <scoofy> calculating with double of 'average price of HDD per gigabyte', that'd cost you $0.24 in storage
11:32:08 <b_jonas> no, not less than 1%, because I have about 4 gigabytes of installers total
11:32:23 <scoofy> and you have 400 GB of videos. 4 GB is 1% of 400 GB
11:32:32 <scoofy> but you have 400 GB of videos and 300 GB of other data, that's 700 GB
11:33:01 <scoofy> 1 GB out of 700GB, is 0.14%.
11:33:43 <scoofy> 4 GB out of 700 GB, that's 0.57%.
11:34:15 <scoofy> if your total storage is 2 TB, then 4 GB installers consume 0.2% of your total storage.
11:34:35 <scoofy> if your 2 TB storage cost 128 EUR, then 0.2% of 128 EUR cost 0.25 EUR.
11:34:52 <Jafet> Average cost per gigabyte of mirrored, backed-up, network-attached storage is more like $0.1 per month
11:37:36 <Jafet> Looks like amazon s3 goes with $0.03 (not including backup)
11:37:48 <scoofy> so, b_jonas's 4 GB of installers mirrored, backed-up, network-attached storage cost would be $0.4 per month.
11:38:46 <scoofy> adding 100 MB to it increases monthly cost by $0.01 per month, or one cent per month.
11:39:33 <Jafet> Maybe. Note that unpacking the source tarball is going to use the same amount of space at any rate, so whatever
11:46:19 <mroman_> Don't modern filesystems use compression anyway?
11:47:15 <scoofy> some may do, but afaik it's optional, not by default
11:47:38 <b_jonas> mroman_: no, at least not by default because that would be slow, and definitely not the kind of strong compression that would recompress a zip archive to a bz2 archive
11:48:09 <b_jonas> it can't be the default because it's often slow
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11:48:38 <mroman_> you can configure it per folder
11:49:02 <b_jonas> mroman_: sure, but most large files that make sense to be compressed are compressed anyawy
11:49:03 <Jafet> That's the only "modern filesystem" in common use that does
11:49:19 <b_jonas> like I said, 400 gigabytes of videos on this workstation, and those are all compressed
11:49:32 <b_jonas> much of the rest of large data is compressed too
11:49:40 <b_jonas> yes, not by the filesystem, but in a lossy way
11:50:56 <mroman_> Undoubtedly trying to compress already compressed audio/video files probably won't do much
11:51:30 <mroman_> and things that would benefit from compression is usually very small and HDDs today are huge
11:51:33 <b_jonas> mroman_: well, I've seen messed up video files where it would help, but yes
11:52:02 <scoofy> most multimedia formats dont' compress well (because, already compressed usually)
11:52:02 <mroman_> but I'm not sure if you could get some extra compression if you do it not on a file basis
11:52:08 <mroman_> but on a more global basis
11:52:17 <mroman_> such as HDD sectors and what not
11:52:17 <scoofy> textfiles compress well
11:52:20 <Jafet> Well, SSD firmwares have tried to do data compression. That experience has shown us all why it's generally a bad idea
11:52:21 <scoofy> and are usually small.
11:53:06 <scoofy> some file systems allow mounting a .zip or .tar.gz
11:53:07 <Jafet> (File sizes become unpredictable, and compression code is complicated and buggy, adjectives you don't want in a filesystem or block device)
11:54:24 <scoofy> example: "TrueZIP is a Java based virtual file system (VFS) which enables client applications to perform CRUD (Create, Read, Update, Delete) operations on archive files as if they were virtual directories, even with nested archive files in multithreaded environments"
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11:55:59 <Jafet> That sounds terrible for performance
11:57:43 <mroman_> there's also some google userspace fs based on google mail or something
11:58:02 <mroman_> also on my windows there's this weird cloud folder
11:58:38 <scoofy> well, compression always decreases performance. there's no free lunch
11:59:06 <Jafet> There is no way to update a file in a zip archive in place
11:59:20 <scoofy> yet they do it somehow.
11:59:45 <Jafet> You need to either move all the later files, or append the new file to the end and leave a hole in the archive
12:00:01 <olsner> if a file size changes you can insert a comment between it and the next file
12:00:18 <Jafet> Yes, but not if the size increases
12:00:32 <scoofy> then you leave a hole and append at end.
12:00:34 <Jafet> (Hmm, maybe you can move some of the other files to the end?)
12:00:40 <scoofy> and if you write another, smaller file, then you fill the hole.
12:02:33 <mroman_> which is what filesystems do anyway :)
12:02:39 <Jafet> Yes, that is terrible for performance because it can lead to unbounded fragmentation
12:02:55 <Jafet> No, filesystems allocate files in blocks
12:03:05 <scoofy> Jafet: just like with traditional filesystems.
12:03:13 <scoofy> modern ones fragment less
12:03:46 <scoofy> (but can lead to other problems, like ext4 delayed allocation can cause data loss if there's a power outage)
12:04:12 <scoofy> Jafet: so filesystems waste an entire block, even if you write 1 byte :)
12:04:25 <Jafet> That's still bounded (and internal) fragmentation
12:05:09 <scoofy> maybe trueZIP defragments .zip files.
12:05:24 <scoofy> like how you defragment disks in windows...
12:05:43 <fowl> Y'all heard of 3d fractals?
12:05:52 <Jafet> (Even very old filesystems, such as the ones in Version 7 Unix, use block allocation for files)
12:06:10 <scoofy> no one said the contrary.
12:06:33 <Jafet> Well, you can't do that with zip archives.
12:06:55 <mroman_> punch card file systems ftw
12:07:44 <scoofy> what would be the point of 'allocating blocks' with zip archives? the point of zip archives is files to be small, not to waste an entire block even for a tiny file
12:07:50 <scoofy> so it'd defeat its purpose
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12:08:29 <Jafet> Indeed, so treating a zip archive like a filesystem is inherently a bad idea
12:08:33 <mroman_> some FS let you configure the cluster sizes
12:08:47 <mroman_> depending on if you have a lot of small sizes or a bunch of huge files
12:08:50 <scoofy> Jafet: when it's read-only, it's actually not a bad idea
12:09:01 <fowl> You guys talking about physfs?
12:09:36 <mroman_> cp foo.tar.gz/toextract.txt ./
12:09:47 <fowl> Some fuse fs could do it
12:09:53 <mroman_> you wouldn't need this weird tar util anymore
12:10:10 <Jafet> Actually, most modern filesystems just inline small files into the inode or squash multiple files into one block
12:10:51 <scoofy> zcat foo.tar.gz >toextract.txt
12:13:08 <Jafet> Even though tar uses ascii, I don't think that's normally what you want
12:14:07 <scoofy> that normally implies ASCII
12:14:28 <Jafet> It does not normally imply that an entire tar file is inside it, though.
12:14:47 <scoofy> okay, then zcat foo.gz >toextract.txt
12:16:20 <Jafet> In that case, you might as well use gunzip -c which actually does unpack gzip files (as opposed to zcat which may not work with gzip format on some systems)
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13:15:54 <shachaf> oerjan: I thought you realized. Never mind.
13:16:17 <shachaf> oerjan: I was mostly wondering why a wisdom/ entry inaccessible with `? exists.
13:16:28 <shachaf> mroman_: Apparently you know?
13:17:04 <shachaf> oerjan: you should create a better entry for nitia twh
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13:41:56 <shachaf> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
13:42:42 <mroman_> We have asked the mighty machine for the password
13:42:54 <mroman_> and the password is XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
13:43:00 <mroman_> yet, it couldn't say what for.
13:45:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: that's impossible. there's only one Q tile, and words longer than 15 letters can't fit on the board
13:45:57 <mroman_> > length "XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR"
13:46:09 <mroman_> 15 doesn't exist in the 2^n system
13:49:42 <HackEgo> You should start the crossword over.
13:55:18 <shachaf> mroman_: but it's inaccessible with `? tdnh
14:02:22 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 6h 23m 3s ago: Just to clear something up, are you physically larger than the average person twh
14:02:39 <tswett> @tell oerjan Yes (due primarily to lean mass).
14:05:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 9m 13s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: what's all this <-- I don't remember hth
14:05:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 6h 47s ago: Actually, it was the password. Ask mroman_.
14:05:33 <lambdabot> oerjan said 5h 25m 30s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: why didn't you tell me twhh <-- (1) i didn't realize (2) it was your program (3) i don't really know awk hth
14:06:06 <shachaf> oerjan: i don't really know awk either and i thought the program was matching on <> because i'd already forgotten how it worked hth
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14:28:11 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:28:42 <mroman_> Since we don't know what it's for.
14:29:21 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/XQ*: No such file or directory
14:29:29 <HackEgo> As the wisdom directory contains many files named after nicks, listing it in public annoys people. Try listing it in private instead.
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14:31:21 <mroman_> shachaf: That's probably because ? does a lower-case
14:31:37 <mroman_> and the file is upper-case
14:32:03 <mroman_> naturally, the password is upper-case
14:32:09 <mroman_> so making it lower-case would be totally wrong
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14:55:00 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR? ¯\(°_o)/¯
14:55:04 <tswett> `cat wisdom/XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR
14:56:14 <tswett> I feel like I was planning to say or do something.
14:58:51 <mroman_> not as cool as playing video games while dissociating
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15:06:51 <HackEgo> oerjan shachaf shachaf tswett oerjan oerjan oerjan hppavilion1 shachaf tswett oerjan oerjan oerjan mroman oerjan oerjan shachaf shachaf shachaf oerjan shachaf orenn orenn ais523 shachaf shachaf tswett shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf shachaf hppavilion1 hppavilion1_ coppro ais523 Taneb oerjan tswett orenn shac
15:08:00 <coppro> pikhq: how do I make your country stop being terrible?
15:08:32 <rdococ> by stopping it from existing
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15:11:13 <tswett> Man, dissociated gaming is the best.
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15:21:29 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ASCII_art/mandelbrot
15:23:02 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Gibberish/JavaScript/HTML_interpreter I find spam here
15:23:22 <vanila> unless yunpan is not spam
15:33:57 <rdococ> that's not spam, it's just the authors of those articles have trouble communicating in english
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15:34:17 <rdococ> and on behalf of that person, I feel offended.
15:42:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43258&oldid=43241 * Rdococ * (+50) /* Arithmetic */ isn't Table code...
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16:27:57 <vanila> make a TC esolang that uses every chinese kanji for a different thing, and is not turing complete if any one character is removed from the language
16:30:31 <myname> it would be hard enough for every number from 0 to 9, wouldn't it?
16:30:59 <vanila> espelically if oerjan is around
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16:59:57 <b_jonas> what's the name for good features where you had to implement nothing for the feature to work, it just fell out from the rest of the design?
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17:01:20 <b_jonas> an example I'm fond of is quantity control in eye drops. no matter how much liquid you get into your eyes from an eye drops, the right amount will remain in your eyes and the extra will flow out on the bottom because your eyes just can't hold it. so the quantity is entirely self-regulating, and the container doesn't have to do anything for this.
17:01:35 <b_jonas> as a result, the only way to take too much eye drops is if you use it too frequently.
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17:02:11 <b_jonas> (there are some ways to take too few eye drops, or the wrong type, or use it when you shouldn't use it at all of course)
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17:41:42 <FreeFull> b_jonas: It's because eyes have their own lubricating system built in
17:42:15 <FreeFull> And given people cry sometimes, that has to drain properly
17:42:35 <b_jonas> FreeFull: yes, but it's free for the eyedrops
17:43:27 <Jafet> If you didn't do anything for a feature, is it your feature?
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18:32:45 <shachaf> pikhq: When did you say you're moving here?
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18:35:45 <ais523> I just rebooted because the network adapter was malfunctioning
18:35:55 <ais523> and remembered to check the parent PID of Abiword this time
18:36:21 <vanila> i tohught ubuntu is using systmed
18:36:21 <ais523> I have the feeling that upstart is upset that this is a systemd system now
18:36:28 <ais523> but it's using upstart too somehow
18:36:31 <ais523> and when upstart is being upstart, not init
18:36:37 <ais523> it's just utterly craz
18:36:47 <vanila> maybe you can delete upstart
18:36:49 <ais523> either that or this is some sort of malware pretending to be upstart
18:36:57 <ais523> but I don't get why malware would open abiword
18:37:06 <shachaf> ais523: Are you sure nitia didn't start it up?
18:37:49 <ais523> upstart's parent is /usr/sbin/lightdm (running as root, not ais523)
18:38:08 <ais523> and lightdm has caused problems for me too
18:38:25 <shachaf> I think all lightdm does is run your desktop environment thing.
18:38:57 <ais523> well, the only time the boot failed
18:39:01 <ais523> lightdm was involved somehow
18:39:08 <ais523> it tried to start for about 30 seconds, gave up
18:39:13 <ais523> and then did a clean shutdown of the system
18:40:23 <ais523> but up until now I hadn't made the connection that lightdm = gdm equivalent, not metacity/compiz equivalent
18:41:16 <coppro> I've never heard of lightdm behaving like that
18:42:08 <ais523> coppro: well you can easily blame systemd, or even plymouth (I was reading the messages that boot, which might be related)
18:47:03 <pikhq> Next couple weeks or so?
18:50:00 <tswett> b_jonas: there's the phrase "happy accident", but that's sort of informal.
18:50:50 <tswett> Maybe you should call it an "accidental feature".
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19:02:40 <oerjan> is there an international campaign to outlaw subwoofers i think twh in this building
19:02:54 <lambdabot> tswett said 5h 14s ago: Yes (due primarily to lean mass).
19:04:12 <shachaf> international campaign to outlaw subwoofers in oerjan's building
19:04:46 <shachaf> subwoofers are terrible. worse than dogs.
19:04:56 <ais523> dogs are just regular woofers
19:04:58 <shachaf> unfortunately dogs are p. good so that's not saying v. much
19:12:43 <nortti> https://medium.com/relevant-stories/rel-chapter-1-907ff616bf80
19:13:23 <shachaf> Maybe I was mixing you up with nitia.
19:13:35 <shachaf> Because I thought that was a real nick or something.
19:14:17 <shachaf> nitia created a bunch of files in the HackEgo repository.
19:15:06 <shachaf> It makes up people like nitia and estin
19:15:31 <Jafet> Is that URL supposed to be relevant?
19:15:52 <nortti> no, that url is irrelevant, but on relevant
19:16:40 <nortti> that json-based lang they created seemes esoteric-y
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19:18:58 <int-e> shachaf: I thought we have to ping fizzie or elliott for that
19:19:34 <nortti> it's no longer run by gregor?
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19:20:04 <Jafet> This looks like one of those languages that should have remained esoteric
19:20:07 * int-e wonders how the esolangs.org takeover is going
19:22:45 <vanila> this 100% looks like a esolang
19:23:11 <vanila> its actually worse though
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19:28:45 <vanila> this stupid thing for TC JSON
19:28:50 <vanila> that CA thing for TC CSS
19:29:00 <vanila> we get a full stack of tc languages
19:29:23 <fowl> "_RETURN":{"_MATH":"{foo}+{var}"}
19:29:32 <fowl> The function “_MATH”, from the above example, parses a string into a mathematical expression and returns its result.
19:29:48 <vanila> I wonder what happens if you want to name something starting with an _
19:29:55 <fowl> sounds better than javascript
19:30:27 <oerjan> <int-e> shachaf: I thought we have to ping fizzie or elliott for that <-- Gregor, not elliott.
19:30:41 <tswett> This is the sort of programming language that you invent by accident.
19:30:55 <zzo38> Macro-RDF for TC RDF
19:31:07 <shachaf> oerjan: it seems to me that pinging any of those three is about equally effective hth
19:31:27 <Jafet> Just make sure to use sendmail for mailing your webapp's users and you're good to go
19:33:59 <zzo38> [ :return [ :add _:foo, _:bar ] ]
19:33:59 <j-bot> zzo38: |syntax error
19:33:59 <j-bot> zzo38: | :return[ :add _:foo,_:bar]]
19:34:17 <zzo38> I don't care if it is syntax error, that's fine with me
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19:42:01 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: it seems to me that pinging any of those three is about equally effective hth <-- that is true. although elliott isn't even on the network.
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19:54:12 <shachaf> fizzie has disappeared into the google black hole hth
19:57:46 <zzo38> Finally, here it is.
19:58:38 <oerjan> =HackEgo> danddreclist 64: shachaf nooodl boily \ http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex
19:59:13 <oerjan> of course shachaf is the only one actually here...
19:59:32 <shachaf> I stopped reading danddreclist a while ago.
20:01:01 <oerjan> ais523: hey, you could modify thutubot to link to HackEgo instead of lambdabot that would help >:P
20:01:10 <zzo38> Do you still want your name on their though or do you want to remove it afterward?
20:01:36 <ais523> oerjan: it's not like thutubot's been online in ages
20:01:41 <b_jonas> I have a crazy idea. I think it wouldn't be too difficult to build a sort of distributed vcs layer over svn,
20:02:14 <oerjan> if we only had an exploit to actually get HackEgo to reconnect...
20:03:17 <b_jonas> where you can create branches that track a remote svn repostiroy, and you can fetch to and push to it, and it could even be very compatible with ordinary svn in the sense that you could use ordinary svn for any operation that's within a repository.
20:03:54 <b_jonas> As long as you don't mind it being not as efficient with disk space and caches as a first-class distributed vcs.
20:03:58 <shachaf> b_jonas: There are several versions of this already, aren't there?
20:04:06 <b_jonas> And I think it wouldn't even be very difficult to build such a thing.
20:04:26 <b_jonas> shachaf: I don't know of any. I've seen several that can *pull* but not push.
20:05:01 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'll have to look at git-svn because I'm not too familiar with it, but I think that's not what I want
20:05:40 <b_jonas> Well, I'll have to look at git-svn anyway, because people praise it, even if it's not for this.
20:06:02 <b_jonas> But anyway, I'm not completely sure this is possible, and how hard it is, I'm still trying to figure out the details.
20:06:31 <b_jonas> But if I decide it's not very difficult, I might even try to write such a thing myself, because I like subversion and I'd totally use something like this.
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20:09:19 <b_jonas> I like subversion because it is designed well, it has a good interface, and keeps improving all the time.
20:09:57 <zzo38> I don't know much about working of Subversion
20:10:25 <coppro> b_jonas: but it's a CCVS
20:11:21 <zzo38> Which is meaning what?
20:11:25 <b_jonas> coppro: what does that mean?
20:11:40 <coppro> centralized version control system
20:11:51 <b_jonas> coppro: yes, and that's exactly the problem this would fix
20:12:48 <coppro> why do you want a cnetralized system to begin with, though?
20:13:54 <b_jonas> coppro: I said above, because svn is designed and implemented well, it has a good interface, and keeps improving so I get new goodies but all compatibility with every minor version upgrade,
20:14:13 <b_jonas> and also existing people are using svn so I could use this to existing svn repositories.
20:15:01 <b_jonas> Really, I like svn, and I think many people who don't like it don't like it because they've got their impressions from older versions of svn (especially ones before 1.5) which weren't as good as current ones are.
20:15:10 <zzo38> I don't seem to have Subversion in my computer though
20:15:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: you can probably install.
20:15:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: the executable is called svn , if you want to check if it's already on
20:15:48 <zzo38> I did check that, I don't have it on Cygwin.
20:16:01 <b_jonas> and the homepage is http://subversion.apache.org/ which tells you how to install
20:16:16 <b_jonas> oh, I don't know cygwin, I don't know if there's a cygwin version
20:16:21 <b_jonas> but there's a native windows version
20:16:50 <b_jonas> svn is quite portable, they develop it so it works well on windows (unless it's version old versions of windows) as much as that's possible
20:17:00 <zzo38> I don't need a Cygwin version; I just checked there because if I had it, that is where it would be.
20:20:30 <b_jonas> (and when I said it would be compatible with svn, imagine the disclaimer that that's as long as all the repositories and svn servers are svn 1.5 or later)
20:20:44 <b_jonas> (but using svn older than that is a bad idea anyway)
20:22:50 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: I thought you realized. Never mind. <-- i realized what the nitia entries were but not that it was due to a bug in your program
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20:38:37 <b_jonas> Also, if someone made something like this, it might count as esoteric enough for this channel.
20:40:51 <FireFly> nitia is my favourite user
20:42:04 <ais523> who is this nitia person anyway?
20:43:19 -!- nortti has changed nick to nitia.
20:43:21 <oerjan> ais523: it's hard to demonstrate without HackEgo tdnh
20:43:46 <ais523> ah, is that the only place it comes from?
20:43:56 -!- nitia has changed nick to nortti.
20:44:15 <oerjan> oh someone actually nicked to it...
20:44:44 <ais523> -NickServ- Information on nitia (account nortti):
20:51:08 <b_jonas> I'm still using rsync -e "sudo -u" as a convenient way to copy files between users
20:51:33 <ais523> b_jonas: sudo cp; sudo chown?
20:51:47 <b_jonas> ais523: no, that requires root
20:52:00 <b_jonas> this works even between two non-root users if I have sudo permissions
20:52:05 <ais523> actually, the method I use when retrieving read-protected files from nethack4.org is to get the destination user to make an a+r copy
20:52:14 <b_jonas> I don't want to use root when I don't have to, even if I have root access, to avoid mistakes
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22:22:02 <HackEgo> olist 991: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
22:22:25 <HackEgo> HackEgo: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
22:30:57 <tswett> A French word, pronouned /o/.
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22:52:54 <FireFly> how's it going? what's up? how's life?
22:58:11 <shachaf> are we living the same life
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03:31:24 <tswett> Randomly generated error message:
03:31:26 <tswett> 13:37:54: <oerjan> `run echo $ 5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
03:31:26 <tswett> 15:09:28: <HackEgo> data darn, preceding the complete path
03:31:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Numberic Underload]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43259 * Esowiki201529A * (+275) Created page with "'''numberic Underload''' is a [[Underload]] derivative. It has the same instructions but... <pre> Replace ) with 0 Replace ( with 1 Replace ~ with 2 Replace : with 3 ..."
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03:32:00 <HackEgo> weetoflake/Weetoflakes are something Taneb invented; they taste sort of purple.
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03:33:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Esowiki201529A * moved [[Numberic Underload]] to [[Numeric Underload]]
03:34:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Numeric Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43262&oldid=43260 * Esowiki201529A * (-1)
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03:41:22 <HackEgo> qzyzzalroum/You should start the crossword over.
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04:29:11 <zzo38> Maybe I should just avoid adding multipart support for now. It means you can't upload files using a HTML form, although the -T command of cURL can still be used (it also means -F can't be used, but that is OK because you can use -T instead)
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05:29:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43263&oldid=43171 * Imaginer1 * (-198) Sticker giveaways are on hold indefinitely due to a bad mood. >:c
05:32:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Imaginer1]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43264&oldid=43263 * Imaginer1 * (+168)
05:34:48 <b_jonas> hmm… there is one problem, but I don't know how big it is
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10:22:04 <int-e> `le/rn code/5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
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10:25:12 <int-e> exactly ;-) (see what tswett wrote 7 hours ago)
10:28:00 <FireFly> FJtIABCBBDECBEHFIzCFDCCEHGDGB.
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13:16:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mov]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43265&oldid=43252 * Keymaker * (+37) Category, some capitalization.
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13:50:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Loovjo * New user account
13:54:45 <izabera> http://devnull-as-a-service.com/
14:01:23 <Jafet> Someone here had a quit message "1 found in /dev/zero"
14:01:55 <Jafet> Now that's something, /dev/zero as a service
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14:11:12 <FireFly> They did cat-as-a-service before SaaS was a thing
14:11:22 <FireFly> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc862
14:14:48 <mroman_> this looks very incomplete
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14:24:58 <b_jonas> Jafet: didn't noentropy.net have that?
14:26:00 <b_jonas> as for /dev/null as a service, the relevant rfc is http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc863.html which is one after the echo one
14:29:20 <mroman_> is there also a /dev/random as a service rfc?
14:29:30 <mroman_> No data is read, just random garbage sent.
14:30:04 <mroman_> which is just deadfish as a service
14:30:21 <b_jonas> mroman_: no, but there's rfc864 about non-random garbage data sent
14:30:35 <b_jonas> in a pattern that's likely mostly deterministic but not precisely defined
14:30:51 <b_jonas> the goal is to just send junk output regardless the input
14:31:49 <mroman_> The question is, if ESOSC should standardize netfish .
14:32:08 <mroman_> and request a Port from IANA
14:34:42 <mroman_> Why would you even want to register a Port there?
14:34:47 <mroman_> you can just use any port you want anyway
14:39:44 <mroman_> "Please explain why a unique port assignment is necessary as opposed to a port in range (49152-65535) or existing port."
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14:40:13 <mroman_> Does anybody have a reason why netfish needs a port in the registered port range?
14:41:41 <Jafet> I don't think you need reasons, just money.
14:42:20 <b_jonas> just make up a number and use it
14:42:34 <b_jonas> it doesn't have to be registered
14:45:00 <b_jonas> make up a port number but prefix it with X-
14:45:21 <b_jonas> or use one of those multiple services where there's a meta-service you can query for the addresses of other services?
14:45:28 <b_jonas> I think people have invented multiple of those
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14:50:36 <mroman_> IANA will inform me in 14 days :)
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15:00:09 <mroman_> how the hell am I supposed to prefix them with X-?
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15:56:26 <shachaf> ski: Where did . o O come from?
15:56:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[FakeASM]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43266&oldid=40737 * 148.197.42.176 * (+24)
15:56:33 <HackEgo> hand/A hand in the bush is better than a stoned bird.
15:58:04 <ski> shachaf : i'm not sure. possibly i saw it on #scheme. or maybe somewhere else
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16:03:37 <HackEgo> egobot/EgoBot is my arch-nemesis.
16:03:49 <HackEgo> haskell/Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
16:03:54 <int-e> I've been using . o O ( ) even before I discovered IRC.
16:07:07 <int-e> I saw the .o( ) variant in some MUD, but didn't like it.
16:07:21 <int-e> But the general idea must be ancient.
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16:16:40 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*[oO]*lcome*: No such file or directory
16:17:24 <int-e> ____oOOo_(O.O)_oOOo___
16:17:30 <b_jonas> do we have a command for defining a welcome variant and registering it in the welcome variant list?
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16:21:01 <olsner> is there a welcome variant list?
16:22:35 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
16:22:43 <olsner> I suppose every command is `welcome, some welcomes are just more mutilated than others
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16:26:51 <b_jonas> olsner: I don't know, but we could try
16:27:07 <b_jonas> ``grep -l welcome wisdom/*
16:27:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `grep: not found
16:27:11 <b_jonas> ``` grep -l welcome wisdom/*
16:27:17 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/le: Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/welcome.bork
16:27:52 <b_jonas> ``` grep -sl welcome wisdom/*
16:27:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/welcome.bork
16:28:01 <b_jonas> ``` grep -sl elcome wisdom/*
16:28:02 <HackEgo> wisdom/ \ wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/welcome \ wisdom/welcome.bork
16:28:19 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/relcome: No such file or directory
16:28:24 <b_jonas> oh right, it's not in wisdom!
16:28:36 <HackEgo> bin/welcome \ bin/WELCOME \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/Welcome \ bin/benvenuto \ bin/bienvenido \ bin/elcome \ bin/emoclew \ bin/erypbzr \ bin/jrypbzr \ bin/ozcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/tervetuloa \ bin/velcome \ bin/wElCoMe \ bin/wehlcohme \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcöme \ bin/wellcome \ bin/wlcm \ bin/wlcmr \ bin/wow \ bin/zalgreet \ bin/ουε
16:28:49 * int-e forgot what the reflection thing does.
16:28:52 <b_jonas> ``` grep -sl elcome bin/* | tail -n+20
16:28:53 <HackEgo> bin/wellcome \ bin/wlcm \ bin/wlcmr \ bin/wow \ bin/zalgreet \ bin/ουελκομε
16:29:07 <int-e> `` ls -la wisdom/reflection
16:29:08 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Jun 9 16:46 wisdom/reflection -> /proc/self/cmdline
16:32:06 <b_jonas> it doesn't even list relcome
16:32:13 <HackEgo> me: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
16:32:20 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rainwords
16:32:30 <b_jonas> oh right, it is in the list
16:32:54 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
16:32:59 <b_jonas> and I should have even found it because it's ordered asciibetically, that was the whole point of the ```
16:33:35 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .</gro.sgnalose//:ptth> :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
16:34:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: gcrhbmiue: not found
16:34:36 <vanila> \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/ \o/
16:34:36 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | |
16:34:36 <myndzi> >\ |\ /< |\ /`\ /< /< /| /^\ /< |\ |\
16:35:10 <HackEgo> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba RSarg be QNYarg.)
16:35:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: celebrate: not found
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16:47:52 <b_jonas> j-bot: '<_-\(oO06@)/-_> .'{~20|(5*i.n)?5$~n=.60
16:47:53 <j-bot> b_jonas: |domain error
16:47:53 <j-bot> b_jonas: | '<_-\(oO06@)/-_> .'{~20|(5*i.n) ?5$~n=.60
16:48:04 <b_jonas> j-bot: '<_-\(oO06@)/-_> .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.60
16:48:05 <j-bot> b_jonas: \6- (0/ _@) \O/ \0- -o> (0).<6/ -@_ (o> <O) <6/ \0/.-O> \6>
16:48:13 <b_jonas> j-bot: '<_-\(oO06@)/-_> .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.80
16:48:14 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o_ (0) <@>.<0_ -@).<o- \O).-6/ _0- \0) -o_ _O).\6/.(6) \6> <6- _@).\O_ <@).-o/.
16:48:17 <b_jonas> j-bot: '<_-\(oO06@)/-_> .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.60
16:48:18 <j-bot> b_jonas: _O> _0- (O> _o_ <@- <0) -O- -O>._O>._o- -O/ (o/ (@_ _6- -O>.
16:49:00 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-\\oO06@//-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.60
16:49:01 <j-bot> b_jonas: -@/ \O- |O/.\@_.-o| -o/ -0|.|6_._@_ \O| \6- |6/ \6| \@_ _6/
16:49:11 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-\\ooooo//-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.60
16:49:12 <j-bot> b_jonas: -o| \o- _o_ \o_ _o- \o- -o- \o/ |o_ -o/ \o/ _o/ -o/ |o/ -o/.
16:49:33 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-\\ooooo//-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.60
16:49:34 <j-bot> b_jonas: \o| \o/ \o_.-o|.\o/ -o/ _o/.\o| _o/.-o| -o- -o- \o/ \o_ \o|
16:49:36 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-\\ooooo//-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.50
16:49:37 <j-bot> b_jonas: -o| \o| |o/ |o_ \o/ _o| _o_ _o_ -o_.-o| -o- \o/ \o
16:49:37 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | |
16:49:37 <myndzi> >\ >\ |\ |\ /^\ /'\ /< /'\ o/`¯º |\/| /<
16:49:47 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-\\ooooo//-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51
16:49:48 <j-bot> b_jonas: |o/.\o| _o/.|o/ _o/ |o_ _o/ _o_ \o-.-o- \o- |o/.\o-
16:49:48 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | | |
16:49:48 <myndzi> /| >\ >\ |\ /'\ /< |\ /^\ /| /^\ /| /`\ |\
16:49:55 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-(\ooooo/)-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51
16:49:56 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o) (o/ -o| _o| (o_ (o) (o- (o_ -o) (o).|o- \o/ _o-
16:50:02 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-<\ooooo/>-_| .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51
16:50:03 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o| _o| |o| \o- <o> -o/ <o> _o_ -o| |o|.|o| <o| |o_
16:50:03 <myndzi> | | | | | | | | | | | | |
16:50:03 <myndzi> >\ /| >\ >\ /| /< >\ /| /`\ /| /< >\ /´\
16:50:40 <vanila> .'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51 what is this
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16:51:30 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-(\ooooo/)-_|ooooo'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51
16:51:31 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o/o(o|o|o)o\o-o_o-o-o|o\o)o_o|o_o/o|o_o(o/o(o|o-o-
16:51:45 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-(\ooooo/)-_|o '{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51
16:51:46 <j-bot> b_jonas: \o/ (o| (o) -o-o_o| _o/o|o| (o-o\o/o\o) _o| (o/ |o/
16:51:54 <b_jonas> doesn't like too many heads I guess
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16:52:37 <b_jonas> vanila: it uses the nick lengths
16:52:48 <b_jonas> "j-bot" is shorter than "myndzi"
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17:05:02 <b_jonas> dunno, I wanted to try to push the limits and find out what myndzi eats
17:05:35 <b_jonas> j-bot: '|_-(\ooooo/)-_|g&/-M'{~20|(5*i.n)+?5$~n=.51
17:05:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: \o_M|o|-(o|/\o|&_o/&_o/g(o_&\o)/-o|/-o--|o)--o)&\o_
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17:16:52 <hppavilion1> I was away installing MinGW on my new laptop
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17:19:13 <hppavilion1> I don't remember this setup GUI when I installed it on windows 7...
17:19:25 <hppavilion1> I kind of want to tell it to install everything
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17:20:11 <b_jonas> question. what cases are there when you can use only uppercase hex digits (ABCDEF), not lower case ones (abcdef)? I know about (1) TeX, (2) dc and bc. Are there others?
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17:20:52 <b_jonas> I mean cases when something accepts only uppercase hex digits as input; not when it only outputs uppercase as output.
17:20:54 <FireFly> I know about one where only the lowercase works (J)
17:21:12 <hppavilion1> Well in some languages you can only use Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, Q, and a Smiley face
17:21:32 <hppavilion1> But those have neither been implemented nor documented
17:21:38 <b_jonas> hppavilion1: what? is this some esolang?
17:21:39 <FireFly> Which is a bit annoying since b is used as a separator between the base and the digits
17:21:55 <hppavilion1> Infinite languages exist in infininte combinations
17:22:03 <hppavilion1> But only some have been implemented and documented
17:22:06 <FireFly> I tend to prefer uppercase if I can choose
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17:51:31 <oren_> uppercase hex is better
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18:01:56 <b_jonas> oren_: did you come riding on 0XBAAAACK or on the BAAAACK of a horse?
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19:09:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43267&oldid=42745 * Hppavilion1 * (+165) /* PFIL */ new section
19:09:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43268&oldid=43267 * Hppavilion1 * (+94) /* PFIL */
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19:25:27 <tswett> 05:56:00: <shachaf> HackEgo could have been a particular amiga book on a binary website for human syntax.
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19:36:57 <shachaf> Not polite to write those things as if they're actual quotes.
19:37:46 <oerjan> tswett: when the neural net starts producing messages from you quoting the neural net, we'll see whether it's alternative universe counterpart makes quotes that look more real hth
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19:49:27 <oren_> oerjan: what if it starts producing messages and then tswett quoting them
19:50:20 <oren_> or worse, what if it starts producing real messages before
19:52:24 <vanila> did you see the mov is turing complete thing?
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19:59:44 <FireFly> Well, can you move to the PC?
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20:57:03 <tswett> shachaf: my apologies.
20:57:24 <HackEgo> unréliable/unréliable is French for «peu fiable».
20:57:33 <HackEgo> gregor/Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
21:02:58 <oerjan> yay archive binge of the whiteboard finished
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21:08:55 <HackEgo> ngevd/ngevd is a fake wisdom entry because having an actual infinite file in wisdom/ makes all manner of stuff bloody awkward. `? ngevd is special-cased in bin/?. leave this file alone Phantom_Hoover‼ also tswett‼
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21:38:35 <HackEgo> coulor/Coulor is the correct spelling.
21:38:35 <HackEgo> qdbrules/qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
21:40:57 <oerjan> `learn Kulør er rett stavemåte.
21:41:04 <HackEgo> Learned 'kulør': Kulør er rett stavemåte.
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22:12:28 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
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22:19:23 <zzo38> How can I get digital cable without all of the menus and OSD and interactive guide and all of that stuff?
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22:20:18 <vanila> I thought you meant cables as in wires, not TV sorry
22:21:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: I guess it's like how you can get DRMed music or games without having to install a DRM manager that cripples your windows computer and breaks down when you lose internet connection or replace any part of your hardware
22:21:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: get an illegal pirated decoder box
22:22:32 <zzo38> I am not trying to avoid paying for channels
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22:23:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: then pay for them and then connect such a decoder maybe
22:24:13 <zzo38> I don't even know how to get such decoder though
22:24:19 <zzo38> Or how to program it
22:26:26 <zzo38> I want to be able to access it using an analog tuner
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22:27:13 <b_jonas> how would you control it then, if you access it from an analog tuner?
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22:28:13 <zzo38> It would digitally tune to various channels and broadcast them on a analog RF signal on different channels, and then just stay out of the way
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22:29:16 <zzo38> Another way would be to use a MIDI input port to receive channel changing commands (without OSD), if the VCR or TV or whatever support it then it would use that to change channels.
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22:30:31 <lambdabot> CYUL 232200Z 27019G31KT 30SM FEW030 BKN070 BKN090 24/15 A2960 RMK CU1AC4AC1 SLP022 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
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22:31:21 <boily> `relcome YokeOfIdea
22:31:25 <HackEgo> YokeOfIdea: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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22:33:35 <zzo38> Another way could be to make a test signal on all channels other than the one tuned, and the video out passes through the cable box and uses that to know which channel to tune to.
22:34:41 <zzo38> It works if you are using a VCR to tune the signal, but not with a TV set (unless perhaps it is a TV set that supports external speakers)
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22:38:25 <boily> I wonder if the only people left with VCRs are hipsters nowadays.
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22:40:36 <boily> zzo38: hezzo38. I bought a foldable shogi board. I made a grave mistake by teaching our team's intern the game the other week, and now she's addicted.
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23:01:26 <zzo38> Would you know how to make such a device like how I mentioned?
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23:13:29 <boily> zzo38: perhaps. let me read the logs.
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23:14:37 <boily> by the way, my parents got a new android tablet. it's all shiny and stuff, but they can't browse anything https. do you have any idea why?
23:15:01 <boily> (already tried the automatically-set-date-and-time solution, but it does nothing.)
23:15:05 <zzo38> What kind of error message?
23:15:12 <zzo38> Do any other protocols work?
23:15:34 <boily> something about timeouts, pages loading partially if they're lucky...
23:15:38 <boily> regular http works.
23:16:04 <zzo38> I mean other protocol such as FTP, gopher, SMTP, etc
23:16:17 <zzo38> (Of course you need a client supporting them)
23:16:49 <boily> the problem is that the aforementioned tablet is quite far from my hands atm hth
23:17:24 <zzo38> Make a Wikipedia proxy that doesn't require HTTPS.
23:17:30 <zzo38> That could be one way
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23:18:55 <zzo38> (The Wikimedia Foundation refuses to do this; I have asked them.)
23:19:47 <boily> always be thorough with that kind of matter at hand.
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23:30:58 <zzo38> (I am not the only one to have asked.)
23:31:58 <boily> you are the thirty-eighth zzo. I wouldn't be surprised if all 37 previous ones also asked.
23:34:43 <FireFly> boily: did you just turn zzo38 into zzo39
23:34:46 <HackEgo> madness/madness lies thataway.
23:35:28 <boily> Firellofly. the real zzo38 is zzo38 hth
23:40:17 <nys> a program that can print anything you pipe into it except its own source
23:41:59 * boily plugs his ears with mapole ear plugs. “LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU LA LA LA”
23:43:34 <HackEgo> torus/Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
23:43:37 <shachaf> FireFly: how's snakebird going
23:43:55 <HackEgo> rhubarb/Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb, rhubarb: rhubarb rhubarb? Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb rhubarb.
23:44:43 <FireFly> shachaf: haven't played it since last time; I was mostly away from my computer over the weekend celebrating midsummer
23:45:00 <HackEgo> swedish/Swedish is the language of fine cuisine.
23:46:02 <boily> FireFly: uhm. wouldn't that be, like, you know...
23:46:29 <shachaf> `` /bin/ls wisdom | wc -l # hth
23:47:04 <zzo38> What is the other seven?
23:47:11 <nys> auntie quine
23:47:25 <FireFly> zzo38: presumably directories containing files
23:48:11 <boily> that, or they're Eldritch Forbidden Wisom Entries of Untractable Lore.
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00:08:14 <HackEgo> @/@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
00:08:19 <HackEgo> code/5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
00:08:30 <boily> ah! I don't have that one.
00:08:37 <HackEgo> eliot/Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
00:09:03 <boily> @tell elliott you really should join the chännel back hth
00:09:04 <HackEgo> unicode/Unicode is a mess invented in 1988 by Xerox, Microsoft, the Spanish Inquisition, and the evil Human Supremacy Corporation, in order to make it easier for the government to spy on Chinese people.
00:09:39 <HackEgo> poland/Połąńd is a European country. Its population consists of two main ethnicities, the North Połes and the South Połes.
00:09:44 <zzo38> I don't know? Perhaps the US government
00:10:19 <HackEgo> The US is the country opposed to the THEM.
00:10:25 <HackEgo> Information on the THEM has been removed for national security reasons.
00:10:28 <HackEgo> Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
00:10:40 <HackEgo> rincewind/Rincewind is a wizzard. He likes potatoes.
00:11:42 <HackEgo> browser/A browser is a Gopher client for convenient access to Gopher services and documents.
00:21:57 <HackEgo> pie/I like pie \ I like pie
00:22:07 <HackEgo> for further details./See `? for further details for futher details.
00:22:11 <HackEgo> whitespace/see https://www.bing.com/search?q=whitespace
00:25:32 <FireFly> `le/rn bowser/A Bowser is a Koopa client for convenient administration of mooks in Mushroom Kingdom.
00:27:22 <shachaf> something wrong with `learn?
00:28:26 <FireFly> last I tried to use it, I think the wisdom entry name got included in the file content
00:28:46 <FireFly> That was a few years ago though
00:28:55 <shachaf> But here you put the wisdom entry name in the file content.
00:29:22 <zzo38> The `learn command is OK if you want the filename only one word and is also the first word of the data
00:29:54 <HackEgo> #!/bin/bash \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed 's/^\(an\?\|the\) //;s/s\? .*//') \ echo "$1" >"wisdom/$topic" \ echo "Learned '$topic': $1"
00:30:03 <shachaf> It also recognizes if the first word of the data is a or an or the
00:30:18 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that
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00:31:50 <FireFly> Too much magic could be harmful
00:32:17 <FireFly> rather than remember and keep up-to-date with `learn's magic, it's easier to just `le/rn
00:32:33 <FireFly> although that might just be me
00:33:21 <shachaf> But I feel obligated to mention it thanks to oerjan.
00:33:31 <shachaf> He complained about how le/rn encourages people not to put the title in the content.
00:34:12 <zzo38> Sometimes the title might not be needed in content though
00:37:27 <boily> zzo38: just got a callback from my dad. setting the tablet to +0800 makes SSL work. who would've known.
00:37:34 <HackEgo> botlop/botlops are the core of botsentiences. Sapience is scheduled for the next release.
00:37:41 <HackEgo> itidus19/itidus19 disappeared into a space-time anomaly
00:38:03 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/botlops
00:38:05 <HackEgo> oerjan Bike FreeFull boily
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00:39:55 <HackEgo> ̸̸̼͚͇̮͕̳̞̤̜̯̪̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_͙̣͎͎͙̪̪̝̖͉̟̭̻̥̫̗̱̗͍̳̦̮̟̲̥͔̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓̐͊̏ͫ̓̚̚҉̕͜͠͠҉̡̧̛͞/̼͚͇̮͕̘̳̞̤̜̯̪̘̪̱̣̠̺̹͍̩̝͚͕͓͚̙͓̪̮̟̜̣͙̪̂ͭ̎̏̔ͦ͒ͪ͌̾ͦͨ̚̚͢͢͠ͅ҉̴̢_̿̊ͣ̉ͣͪ͒̓
00:40:04 <HackEgo> ĥäŝkéll/ĥäŝkéll is not what you were looking for. Try again.
00:40:25 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaurgh...
00:40:51 * boily handwaves all those additions to tomorrow. «m'a faire ça demain, ça d'l'air que c'est congé.»
00:41:12 <boily> `` culprits wisdom/ĥäŝkéll
00:50:00 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access wisdom/*ÌÌ*: No such file or directory
00:51:49 <HackEgo> madness/madness lies thataway.
00:51:53 <HackEgo> funciton/A funciton is the number of burgers to eat when I get one.
00:51:56 <HackEgo> ci/The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
00:54:15 <boily> and here I was naïvely believing that Taneb invented himself.
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01:57:55 <oren_> if there was no Taneb, it would be necessary for Taneb to invent him
02:01:58 <boily> therefore, Taneb is a quine.
02:02:55 <Sgeo_> What is this II stuff?
02:03:05 <Sgeo_> I assume it's HexChat sucking and it's not really II
02:03:24 <oren_> It's the number after I and after II
02:03:32 <oren_> It's the number after I and before III
02:03:53 <Sgeo_> Well, not "works" but shows up as a box
02:04:55 <oren_> oh like irssi but different?
02:05:45 * boily dons his tinfoil hat and points at a possible hexham conspiracy.
02:08:13 <oren_> oh so it's a GUI program? bleh
02:08:19 <shachaf> boily: Taneb was presumably invented by nitia.
02:08:33 <boily> shachaf: have we found out who nitia is yet?
02:08:38 <oren_> I prefer ncurses programs for basically all purposes
02:08:50 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/creator/inventor/' wisdom/nitia
02:09:00 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
02:10:25 <boily> we had fiora and douglass who were feminine chännelers. is nitia one of them?
02:11:03 <boily> (sorry if I'm missing other female members here. by default I'm assuming people to be fungotkin.)
02:11:42 <shachaf> Google says "Nitia" is a feminine name.
02:11:52 <shachaf> But enumerating folks like that doesn't seem very nice.
02:11:54 <oren_> Roughly 80% of my comp sci graduation's attendees were men hth.
02:12:40 <oren_> (Yes, the comp sci department has its own graduation...)
02:13:13 <oren_> s/attendees/'graduands'/
02:13:55 <HackEgo> shachaf oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
02:13:57 <boily> oh. btw, fizzie, FUNGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT!
02:14:26 <shachaf> boily: do you want to figure out where nitia came from
02:14:36 <shachaf> int-e got mad that i gave it away
02:14:41 <boily> oren_: roughly 100% of comp eng graduatees were men when I graduated hth
02:14:47 <oren_> anyway, it's safe to say that without any other evidence any given group of computer people are mostly men
02:14:50 <boily> shachaf: is nitia you?
02:15:02 <shachaf> oren_: more like rude to say hth
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02:15:54 <oren_> lol yeah some people get mad when you point it out. my dad advised me to study in the medicine section of the library to meet girls
02:16:42 <oren_> (I was like, 'library? what library')
02:16:42 <shachaf> that is not exactly what i mean
02:16:57 <boily> shachaf: can I mapole oren_ with great force? >:)
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02:18:56 <boily> still, we're (or at least I) not progressing upon the nitiaproblem.
02:19:13 <oren_> maybe scan the logs?
02:19:32 <shachaf> boily: you can work it out
02:19:36 <shachaf> all the information is in the hg logs
02:19:40 <oren_> for example figure out what date nitia modified that file and check the logs for that day
02:22:03 <shachaf> The hg logs contain the command that modified the file.
02:23:45 <oren_> angry video game video nerd?
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02:26:10 <boily> shachaf: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-06-22#191506shachaf
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02:27:27 <boily> ain't cheating. Ctrl-Fed through the logs.
02:27:29 <oren_> Oh, there is also izabera who is a girl
02:27:32 <shachaf> `culprits useless_file.txt
02:27:56 <oren_> `cat useless_file.txt
02:27:56 <boily> izabera: do you corroborate oren_'s affirmation?
02:27:56 <HackEgo> cat: useless_file.txt: No such file or directory
02:28:12 <scoofy> `echo useless > useless_file.txt
02:28:12 <HackEgo> useless > useless_file.txt
02:28:57 <shachaf> i would say just let people be twh
02:29:16 <zzo38> If you want to write it to a file put `` or ``` at front (with a space afterward), to make shell interpretation
02:29:33 <zzo38> If you don't do that then it just treats it as a command with one parameter not interpreted by shell.
02:30:04 <boily> therefore, indeed.
02:30:15 <scoofy> ``echo useless > useless_file.txt
02:30:16 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `echo: not found
02:30:28 <scoofy> what's the difference between `` and ```
02:30:35 <shachaf> Why are you mkaing useless_file.txt?
02:31:29 <shachaf> That file is kind of special.
02:31:29 <zzo38> No, you need a space after `` or ```
02:31:35 <shachaf> We might never have another file created by estin.
02:31:39 <zzo38> scoofy: The difference between them is the locale setting
02:31:44 <oren_> `` echo 無駄無駄無駄ムダ〜！ > emoticons/useless
02:32:13 <zzo38> If you put `` then it uses the default locale, but if you put ``` then it uses the C locale instead.
02:32:22 <oren_> hmm that isn't an emoticon, just a reference to a manga
02:36:18 <oren_> `` echo オラオラオラ (三･o･)三☆三(｀ε´三)無駄無駄無駄無駄 > emoticons/useless
02:36:19 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `(' \ bash: -c: line 0: `echo オラオラオラ (三･o･)三☆三(｀ε´三)無駄無駄無駄無駄 > emoticons/useless'
02:36:41 <oren_> `` echo オラオラオラ（三･o･）三☆三（｀ε´三）無駄無駄無駄無駄 > emoticons/useless
02:38:02 <zzo38> But if you want to write plain data to a file one way to do is to use the mk command instead
02:40:33 <oren_> I can't find one that includes some depiction of a steamroller and WRYYY
02:40:52 <shachaf> emoticons/ is not a good directory anyway.
02:40:59 <shachaf> IRC would be better with fewer of them.
02:41:28 <oren_> `cat emoticons/gaan
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02:47:32 <oren_> ㊤㊤㊦㊦㊧㊨㊧㊨ｳﾙﾄﾗﾊﾟﾝﾁ(*ﾟ∇ﾟ)-Ｏ))～～～～～～Ю)ﾟﾛﾟ)/
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03:18:06 <pikhq> That is not the entire konami code.
03:25:46 <oren_> ㊤㊤㊦㊦㊧㊨㊧㊨Ⓑ Ⓐ [START]
03:27:42 <shachaf> how did that get messed up twh
03:28:24 <oren_> `le/rn konami/The konami code is ㊤㊤㊦㊦㊧㊨㊧㊨Ⓑ Ⓐ [START]
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04:11:43 <oren_> Why does "font-size: 50px" not make the maximum height of each letter exactly 50 pixels?
04:12:12 <oren_> what the hell is 50px measuring?
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04:15:10 <oren_> god damn european font makers
04:17:11 <pikhq> It's the height from the top of the box the glyph is in to the bottom. That is, it is making the height of each letter 50 pixels but this includes invisible portions of the letter.
04:18:13 <oren_> It doesn't appear that that's the case.
04:18:50 <oren_> It includes a weird space which no letter fills
04:19:40 <oren_> Well I guess the font was designed with an invisible part at the top of every letter
04:20:10 <oren_> so you're right in a way
04:20:35 <pikhq> It's just measuring 50 useless pixels. :P
04:20:59 <oren_> well 40 useful ones and 10 useless ones
04:23:02 <oren_> Anyway the japanese fonts nver have this problem. (they have other problems...)
04:23:34 <oren_> such as often being ugly as fk
04:23:48 <oren_> (on their latin letters)
04:24:22 <pikhq> Japanese fonts IIRC are likely to be making Latin letters fit in half an ideograph space.
04:24:56 <pikhq> (never mind that this is only typographically correct when you're handwriting on grid paper)
04:25:22 <oren_> Well japanese people do handwrite on graph paper
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04:25:50 <pikhq> Yes, but that's not how Japanese typesetting works.
04:26:10 <pikhq> That's how Japanese hand-written essay writing works. :)
04:26:27 <oren_> modern japanese fonts have a 'P' version which is proprtional
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04:27:06 <pikhq> And that one matches proper Japanese typesetting rules.
04:27:54 <oren_> you'll often see the non-p version used for making grids, though (because japanese people hate CSS jsut as much as anyone)
04:27:57 <pikhq> (essentially when you have a run of Latin letters, you're supposed to put that in proportional font, and then when you return to Japanese writing you begin at the next 1 half-space)
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04:32:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Hagb4rd * New user account
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04:41:18 <oren_> Bah, I wonder how much trouble it would be to just write JS that detect the window size and positions eveything absolute
04:43:06 <oren_> maybe I can write a sane version of CSS on top of JS
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04:54:27 <oren_> No matter how long I use CSS, it always feels like I'm looking up a magic incantation from stackoverflow every time
04:55:03 <oren_> some of which no longer work
04:56:23 <zzo38> Then, don't use CSS, many times is not needed
05:05:22 <oren_> well for this purpose I could use oldskool tables partying like it's 2002. (I needed to vertically align some stuff). I ended up using fixed-size divs to "bump"the content into the right places, which is actually a similar process
05:10:56 <Jafet> Draw your page in a canvas
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05:11:30 <zzo38> Why do you need to vertically align some stuff?
05:16:58 <oren_> So that it looks the way the client wants?
05:18:00 <oren_> they want the texts to be vertically aligned at their tops, despite having different meanings for "50px"
05:19:01 <oren_> You have some words in different fonts. veritcal align doesn't work because the visible tops of the letters aren't where the "logical" tops of the letters are
05:19:32 <zzo38> Why do you need the words to be in different fonts?
05:19:57 <oren_> They wanted it that way
05:23:46 <oren_> Well at least it looks correct even if it will look like an abomination to CSS sticklers
05:24:26 <oren_> Jafet: well the accepted approach previously was often to make the whole web page as one SWF
05:24:51 <oren_> So very similar to the approach you propose
05:26:29 <oren_> however now that fucking apple is trying to take away our god-given right to application/x-shockwave-flash
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05:27:14 <zzo38> It also is no good if the user doesn't want Flash
05:27:32 <zzo38> Just use text; that work better anywhere.
05:28:09 <oren_> Well, so long as the user has a fixed width font or you supply the font
05:28:48 <zzo38> The user probably will have a fixed width font, although you can supply one anyways, and also specify fixed width so that it will still work if the user does not download the font.
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06:37:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, it _should_, if it weren't for the stupid bug in firefox releases these days where if you ask firefox to ignore the specific font face names specified by the webpage (css or html), then it also ignores requests for monospace, serif, sans-serif.
06:38:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: they used to do this properly, honoring requests among those three predefined names but not specific font face names, but they messed it up a year ago or something.
06:44:38 <zzo38> Can you still use <TT> or whatever? Furthermore, can they to fix the bug? And, can you tell it to not download any fonts but still honor requests for font names if you have them installed?
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06:57:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, because the TT is made monospace by a built-in CSS rule too, and that's ignored as well
06:57:43 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I think you can tell it not to download fonts, but that's not what I want
06:57:53 <b_jonas> I want webpages to use only the two or three fonts I specify
06:58:43 <b_jonas> I already have fonts installed on my system, but I don't want to give control to webpages to specify fonts, because that's not their business. I'm reading text in fonts I choose.
06:59:08 <b_jonas> But it's possible they fixed it in some later version, I haven't checked lately.
07:01:19 <b_jonas> Regardless this firefox bug, the right thing to do for a webpage is to specify monospaced of course.
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07:13:42 <Sgeo_> I think I'm as dumb as the PHB, I don't "get" the latest Dilbert
07:36:09 <Sgeo_> This website has office hours: https://secure.ssa.gov/ICON/main.jsp
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07:56:50 <oren_> I am considering implementing the contraint-based system decribed my John Nagle in this post
07:56:57 <oren_> http://www.raizlabs.com/graiz/2006/09/25/ten-reasons-why-css-sucks/#c116682639983719888
07:58:55 <oren_> I think that that could be implemented to run fairly fast on today's modern javascript interpreters
08:16:09 <oren_> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.101.4819
08:17:37 <oren_> https://github.com/slightlyoff/cassowary.js
08:17:46 <oren_> seems it's been done
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09:13:55 <mroman_> there's multicolumn support in CSS3 btw
09:21:58 <mroman_> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/hh673558%28v=vs.85%29.aspx <- and that
09:22:06 <mroman_> although I'm not sure if that is supported by other browsers
09:23:39 <mroman_> https://developer.mozilla.org/de/docs/Web/CSS/CSS3
09:23:47 <mroman_> parts of CSS3 are still under development?
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12:23:25 <Jafet> http://constraints.cs.washington.edu/cassowary/ seems to be lacking in the web design department
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12:28:38 <Jafet> Hmm, it's an incremental simplex algorithm
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14:10:06 <boily> mrelloman_. what's a numeric underload?
14:11:48 <Taneb> boily, an Underload derivative in the same style as most brainfuck derivatives
14:12:40 <boily> aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!
14:12:50 <boily> shun the derivative!
14:16:36 <mroman_> boily: Some Esowiki201529A language
14:17:23 <coppro> `learn boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
14:17:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'boxmodel': boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
14:17:54 <boily> it's a Taneboxmodel.
14:18:08 <boily> also, vanelllo, Jafellot, Tanelle and chelloppro!
14:20:10 <HackEgo> dinosaur/Dinosaurs are a diverse group of pre-historic chickens with feathers.
14:21:34 <boily> coppro: last Sunday I managed to ron on 1S 7S 7S 8S 8S 9S 9S 7M 8M 9M 7P 8P 9P 1S, with 1S as dora :D
14:21:47 <FireFly> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\ntr "aoeuiy" "äöëüïÿ"' >bin/döts && chmod a+x bin/döts && wisdom | döts
14:21:49 <HackEgo> mrmn/mrmn s ldng rtst n psswrd scrt (SFW). H ls lks blck mdnss. H cn dsgn psswrd hshs tht r wrs thn th dntt fnctän. H nvntd th dntt fnctän. H's ls n rtst n ncnvntänl wrfr.
14:22:04 <FireFly> I think we have a UTF-8 problem
14:22:25 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
14:24:15 <vanila> isn't GNU tr just brkoen?
14:26:29 <FireFly> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nsed -re "y/aoeuiy/äöëüïÿ/"' >bin/döts && chmod a+x bin/döts && wisdom | döts
14:26:32 <HackEgo> böwsër/A Böwsër ïs ä Kööpä clïënt för cönvënïënt ädmïnïsträtïön öf mööks ïn Müshrööm Kïngdöm.
14:26:50 <HackEgo> LANG=en_NZ.UTF-8 \ LANGUAGE= \ LC_CTYPE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NUMERIC="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TIME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_COLLATE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MONETARY="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MESSAGES="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_PAPER="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_NAME="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_ADDRESS="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_TELEPHONE="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_MEASUREMENT="en_NZ.UTF-8" \ LC_IDENTIFICATION="en_NZ
14:27:42 <FireFly> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwisdom | döts' >bin/wisdöm && chmod a+x bin/wisdöm
14:27:59 <boily> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nsed -re "y/aehiotuwxy/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿ/"' >bin/döts && chmod a+x bin/döts && wisdom | döts
14:28:03 <HackEgo> zömgmödülës/ZOMGMODULES ïs böẗḧ ä smäll blöndë vëẗërïnärïän änd jüsẗ mödülës övër ẗḧë rïng öf ZOMGs.
14:28:11 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: -: not found
14:28:57 <FireFly> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nsed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEIOUY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËÏÖÜŸ/"' >bin/döts && chmod a+x bin/döts && wisdom | döts
14:29:00 <HackEgo> ḧänd/Ä ḧänd ïn ẗḧë büsḧ ïs bëẗẗër ẗḧän ä sẗönëd bïrd.
14:29:30 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
14:30:03 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/log: 2: cd: can't cd to /var/irclogs/_esoteric \ grep: ????-??-??.txt: No such file or directory
14:30:04 <HackEgo> bash: 0: command not found
14:30:13 <HackEgo> mrömän ïs ä lëädïng ärẗïsẗ ïn pässẅörd sëcürïẗÿ (SFW). Hë älsö lïkës bläck mädnëss. Hë cän dësïgn pässẅörd ḧäsḧës ẗḧäẗ ärë ẅörsë ẗḧän ẗḧë ïdënẗïẗÿ füncẗïön. Hë ïnvënẗëd ẗḧë ïdënẗïẗÿ füncẗïön. Hë's älsö än ärẗïsẗ ïn üncönvënẗïö
14:30:19 <coppro> boily: in the same game as the suucha riichi after the tourney, I got this hand
14:30:46 <coppro> http://arcturus.su/mjw/images/Coppro_678_Sanbaiman.jpg
14:31:05 <mroman_> Well, apparentely I added the "black madness" stuff
14:31:18 <boily> coppro: holy fungot!
14:31:32 <FireFly> I don't remember how mahjong works
14:32:01 <boily> coppro: how many chickens did you sacrifice to the Dark Gods to achieve that...
14:33:36 <coppro> boily: twenty senten hands, in the prime of their youth ;)
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14:42:56 <boily> fizzie: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWIGNAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!
14:44:43 <HackEgo> cat: code: No such file or directory
14:44:49 <HackEgo> 5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
14:44:56 <HackEgo> 5 9 51 8 0 1 2 1 1 3 4 2 1 4 7 5 8 57 2 5 3 2 2 4 7 6 3 6 1
14:45:31 <tswett> `run echo '[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...' > wisdom/code
14:45:39 <HackEgo> [11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
14:46:48 <boily> “Sorry, but the terms do not match anything in the table.”
14:48:28 <tswett> Well, what are we waiting for? Let's try to decode this crap.
14:49:09 <tswett> So, the code appears to consist of a first part and a second part.
14:49:20 <tswett> The first part is "[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],".
14:49:47 <tswett> Seven two-digit numbers, with a fair amount of repetition.
14:50:23 <tswett> The second part starts with "5,5,5,3" (again with the repetition), then it does a bunch of two-digit numbers again. Some of the two-digit numbers have a leading 0.
14:51:01 <boily> there's a 22., and a 10.301350435, then numbers of larger magnitude.
14:51:20 <tswett> The last two-digit number is "22.", with a decimal point or period after it, suggesting that this is some sort of endpoint or at least some kind of distinguished point.
14:51:29 <tswett> And don't forget the 1985, which could be interpreted as a year.f
14:51:47 <tswett> It's not clear whether or not the "..." at the end indicates that the last number which appears continues further.
14:52:30 <boily> I don't think 1985 is a year. it just happens to be a four digit number. I believe the ... is a truncation.
14:53:02 <tswett> How many numbers are there in the core two digit number part?
14:53:13 <tswett> > length [53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58]
14:53:21 <tswett> 47, or 48 if you count the 22.
14:53:46 <tswett> > sort [53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58]
14:53:47 <lambdabot> [0,1,1,1,6,11,11,11,11,12,13,13,15,15,16,16,16,17,17,18,19,20,20,20,21,22,22...
14:54:32 <tswett> Full output: [0,1,1,1,6,11,11,11,11,12,13,13,15,15,16,16,16,17,17,18,19,20,20,20,21,22,22,23,25,25,26,27,28,29,30,32,32,43,45,45,47,53,58,61,65,81,91]
14:54:51 <boily> ah! I was wondering if 23 were appearing in the second part.
14:54:56 <tswett> So obviously these numbers are heavily biased towards being smaller.
14:55:21 <tswett> And yes, all the numbers appearing in the first part also appear in the second part.
14:55:45 <tswett> And with the exception of 11, they seem to appear the same number of times.
14:55:55 <tswett> 11 appears three times in the first part, but four times in the second part.
14:56:14 <tswett> > filter (`elem` [11,12,15,23]) [53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58]
14:56:55 <tswett> So how is [11,11,11,15,15,23,12] related to [15,11,15,11,11,12,11,23]?
15:00:24 <boily> except for the extra 11, they are quite the same. they don't do any meaningful melody, they don't form words. they're not made of prime numbers only.
15:02:18 <boily> perhaps the information is in the second part, without the first part.
15:02:50 <boily> the reason there's a fourth 11 in there is because it's the only meaningful 11.
15:04:35 <boily> I surmise that the real separator is the second “.”. the first “.” doesn't make sense, because of the “.,” string right after the “22”. 1985 is an outlier or something.
15:05:19 <boily> another wild guess, “10” is the last two digit number to be considered, and “301350435” is the first of the Gartantuan Series.
15:07:27 <boily> repetitions like that, with bias towards small numbers, make me think of some MTF transform being applied. but my coffee is very strong this morning and I may only be experiencing wild hallucinations.
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15:07:59 <boily> (the joys of a National Holiday. it gives you time for a large pot of French press!)
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15:50:29 <boily> apparently today is its nativity, and August 9th is its beheading.
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16:02:02 <boily> haven't read that far in the wikipédia article.
16:03:54 <boily> according to tradition, it's because Salome asked for his head. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheading_of_St._John_the_Baptist#Traditional_accounts
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18:23:08 <oerjan> hoily. i don't think using lambdabot to contact elliott is likely to work.
18:26:53 <pikhq> When was the last time elliott was seen, anyways?
18:28:18 <int-e> 2015-05-13-raw.txt:< 1431497089 99107 :elliott!~elliott@unaffiliated/elliott QUIT :Quit: leaving
18:31:29 <HackEgo> coonspirator/A coonspirator is caterpillar silk wrapped in collaborators.
18:34:48 <HackEgo> something-that-isn't-in-hackego's-wisdom/It is now.
18:41:42 <HackEgo> för fürẗḧër dëẗäïls för füẗḧër dëẗäïls./Sëë `? för fürẗḧër dëẗäïls för füẗḧër dëẗäïls.
18:42:33 <HackEgo> macabre/The Macabres have been the hereditary rulers of Lochaber for 3 centuries.
18:42:57 <HackEgo> tanea/Tanea plays Minecrafs, Dware Fortresr, and lives in Yorj.
18:43:23 <HackEgo> forty/forty means "in a fort-like manner"
18:45:38 * oerjan builds a thirt and starts throwing snowballs at boily
18:45:59 <zzo38> Do you know, how to make a RF modulator that can broadcast on many channels?
18:47:28 <boily> `learn A thirt is for throwsing snowballs at forty things.
18:47:30 <HackEgo> Learned 'thirt': A thirt is for throwsing snowballs at forty things.
18:47:50 <boily> oerjan: just you wait for next winter, you vile fiend! flblblblblblbl!
18:48:23 <oerjan> yay `learn is not dead!
18:48:35 <shachaf> Shouldn't forty just mean "fort-like"?
18:48:37 <int-e> So ice would be forty snow?
18:48:51 <boily> no, packed snow is forty hth
18:48:53 <shachaf> According to that definition it's an adverb.
18:49:13 <int-e> but ice is more packed than packed snow
18:50:14 <boily> ice is slippery, and already caused injuries on my person.
18:50:34 <oerjan> `learn A boredom is like a kingdom, except ruled by a bore. They don't tend to last very long before people revolt.
18:50:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'boredom': A boredom is like a kingdom, except ruled by a bore. They don't tend to last very long before people revolt.
18:50:51 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/boredom
18:51:32 <oerjan> (incidentally the rule for quotes is two spaces hth)
18:51:39 <shachaf> two spaces for separating quotes
18:52:26 <vanila> zzo38, is it evenv possible?
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18:57:27 <oerjan> ooh google redesigned their app menu so translate fits on the first page
18:57:41 <shachaf> you can thank pikhq for that
18:57:58 <shachaf> not that he had anything to do with it
18:58:01 <shachaf> but you can still thank him
19:00:35 <int-e> oh well. forty snow: http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/12/30
19:00:42 <boily> thikh. thh. eeeekhqhqhqhqh. thikhq. it's fun to say :P
19:01:18 <zzo38> I intend to make that if the channel is changed on the VCR (either manually or using the schedule function) that you will receive the correct signal. They are removing that service by the end of August so I have to implement my own instead
19:01:20 <int-e> (these strips are surprisingly hard to find if all you know is that there's an ice fort and "where's that kid!")...
19:01:26 <pikhq> I've not done anything for Google yet!
19:02:01 <int-e> where "ice fort" is a reinforced snow fort.
19:04:30 <shachaf> pikhq: then why was oerjan thanking you for it
19:04:44 <oerjan> <shachaf> how did that get messed up twh <-- oren_ got confused about spacing with ` so did `` le/rn sport/An ...
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19:05:26 <oerjan> shachaf: i think it would be a good idea if le/rn would also print the full wisdom on success.
19:05:44 <shachaf> But you're free to implement it.
19:06:06 <oerjan> oh no, hppavilion1 discovers le/rn
19:06:13 <shachaf> OK, it can echo it in the same format as its input.
19:06:13 <oerjan> we're basically doomed at this rate
19:06:26 <boily> helloppavilion1. le/rn is your friend.
19:06:54 <oerjan> hppavilion1: adds wisdom/ entries in relatively free format
19:07:13 <oerjan> no, `learn requires it to fit a format
19:07:37 <shachaf> le/rn has another name which everyone has forgotten by now
19:09:32 <oerjan> shachaf: it's old name got slashed
19:09:52 <oerjan> `learn Walruses are invading.
19:09:54 <HackEgo> Learned 'walruse': Walruses are invading.
19:10:02 <vanila> anyone know a good esolang idea?
19:11:02 * oerjan cleverly refrains from using broken `revert.
19:11:12 <boily> vanila: you know these 3d pictures you see after crossing your eyes?
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19:12:27 <vanila> you can do them with ASCII too
19:13:47 <boily> a program would be something like a wall of malbolge-y text, where partial superposition of characters form instructions.
19:14:25 <int-e> bonus point if it does something interesting when run as a malbolge program
19:15:00 <vanila> haha so you have to see it in 3d to program
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19:15:46 <hppavilion1> A good idea for an esolang is an esoteric markup language
19:15:54 <hppavilion1> I'll make the accompanying stylesheet language
19:16:00 <oerjan> <shachaf> uh oh <-- uh oh
19:16:01 <zzo38> Eastlink says they will stop analog service, but I want analog service therefore maybe I have to make my own way, and I have to learn how
19:16:11 <vanila> you shoudn't make your own
19:16:27 <shachaf> oerjan: what are you uh ohing at
19:17:03 <oerjan> shachaf: the same thing as you did hth
19:17:14 <fowl> Esoteric markup language like tex maybe
19:17:28 <boily> what is the term for dedigitizing a signal back to analog? gitizing?
19:17:39 <boily> fowl: plain TeX is already esoteric enough as it is hth
19:21:00 <fowl> I made a 2d lang like snusp
19:21:58 <HackEgo> megalun/megalun is a chain of a million SCSI devices. FreeFull weighs 482 of them.
19:22:05 <HackEgo> bdsm/BDSM definitely isn't a kind of LARP and Taneb definitely did not invent it.
19:22:11 <oerjan> . o O (an esolang designed to be as much unlike any other esolang as possible)
19:22:36 <fowl> So a usable esolang?
19:22:43 <shachaf> Taneb: are you sure about that twh
19:22:46 <HackEgo> oren/oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
19:22:57 <Taneb> shachaf, I did not invent BDSM
19:23:09 <shachaf> Taneb: so shouldn't Tanebventions say that?
19:23:15 <shachaf> otherwise people might assume that you did
19:23:19 <izabera> https://twitter.com/xlibfunctions
19:23:22 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence.
19:23:29 <Taneb> There should be not-tanebinventions
19:23:31 <HackEgo> This sentence was not invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
19:23:31 <MDude> Well, most esolangs are made to have short command names but long programs.
19:23:53 <Taneb> MDude, have you seen Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download?
19:23:53 <oerjan> `learn_append tanebvention He never invents anything involving sex.
19:23:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'tanebvention': Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
19:23:57 <shachaf> Taneb: why would you invent such a confusing sentence tdnh
19:24:10 <Taneb> shachaf, it's just the kind of guy that I am
19:24:12 <fowl> MDude: so a language where anything can be done with one command!
19:24:18 <oerjan> i hope this clears it up.
19:24:25 <MDude> No, that's basically be Text.
19:24:47 <MDude> Since every program output would ahve to be its own command.
19:25:07 <shachaf> Taneb: that's such a good name
19:25:21 <Taneb> shachaf, thanks, I stole it from a spam article
19:25:22 <shachaf> Was it ion who proposed it?
19:26:54 <FreeFull> `eval grep -Rl FreeFull | wc -l
19:26:55 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eval: not found
19:27:01 <FreeFull> `exec grep -Rl FreeFull | wc -l
19:27:01 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: exec: not found
19:27:34 -!- variable has joined.
19:27:36 <oerjan> y'all are horrible nerds
19:27:54 * oerjan considers a HackEgo education camp
19:28:07 <FreeFull> I just don't remember how to HackEgo ):
19:28:13 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:28:20 <FreeFull> `run grep -Rl FreeFull | wc -l
19:29:00 <HackEgo> grep: bin/selflink: Too many levels of symbolic links
19:29:16 <FreeFull> Ok, that's not strictly my fault
19:29:21 <FreeFull> `run grep -Rl FreeFull wisdom/ | wc -l
19:30:24 <oerjan> `` grep -Rl FreeFull wisdom/
19:30:25 <HackEgo> wisdom/freefull \ wisdom/perpetuum mobile \ wisdom/perpetual motion machine \ wisdom/megalun \ wisdom/reflection
19:30:27 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real \ script.py
19:30:36 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: cd: not found
19:31:05 <HackEgo> bash: script.py: command not found
19:31:06 <oerjan> hppavilion1: there's no shell state
19:31:17 <oerjan> every command runs separately
19:31:44 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: script.py: not found
19:31:51 <oerjan> the top level directory tends to get full of junk
19:31:55 <HackEgo> Hello World! \ Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "script.py", line 2, in <module> \ n \ NameError: name 'n' is not defined
19:32:28 <oerjan> inb4 "like all the others"
19:32:29 <hppavilion1> How do I read the contents of a python file again?
19:32:40 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: read: not found
19:32:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:33:01 <oerjan> it's the simplest way for a long file
19:33:06 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/script.py
19:33:31 <oerjan> if it's short, `cat will work too
19:33:33 <hppavilion1> How would I go about editing a file? Just out of curiousity
19:33:48 <oerjan> hppavilion1: with linux commands
19:35:16 <HackEgo> Perpetual motion machines came with FreeFull's phone. They were hallucinated by Slereah's lack of entropy.
19:35:24 <HackEgo> lens/A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra.
19:35:40 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
19:35:41 <HackEgo> # installing zipimport hook \ import zipimport # builtin \ # installed zipimport hook \ # /usr/lib/python2.7/site.pyc matches /usr/lib/python2.7/site.py \ import site # precompiled from /usr/lib/python2.7/site.pyc \ # /usr/lib/python2.7/os.pyc matches /usr/lib/python2.7/os.py \ import os # precompiled from /usr/lib/python2.7/os.pyc \ import errn
19:35:49 <HackEgo> nortti/nortti boy. very nortti boy.
19:36:01 <HackEgo> hmph/His Master's Phonetic Hmph
19:36:09 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull atriq
19:36:25 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elliott \ real
19:37:15 <shachaf> are you sure you don't want to do newline in !!!Batch?
19:37:22 <oerjan> if you're making a big script, it's easier to put it on a webpage and use `fetch
19:37:45 <shachaf> oerjan: wait, `fetch works?
19:38:02 <hppavilion1> Putting it on Github would be too much effort :P
19:38:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ipconfig: not found
19:38:07 <oerjan> for small scripts, i use to do `run (echo ...; echo ...) >filename
19:38:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ip-config: not found
19:38:27 <oerjan> shachaf: hm does `mk have newline support?
19:38:50 <shachaf> if you can figure out how to add it reasonably it would be nice
19:38:52 <hppavilion1> `echo "people = ['hppavilion1']" >> people.py
19:38:53 <HackEgo> "people = ['hppavilion1']" >> people.py
19:39:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metal: not found
19:40:19 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access Complaints/: Not a directory
19:40:20 <oerjan> hppavilion1: by default HackEgo commands get only a single argument made of everything after the command
19:40:44 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
19:40:47 <MDude> No command to tell HackEgo to say something that sounds metal?
19:41:00 <HackEgo> ẗẅnḧ/ẗẅnḧ ïs dübïöüs ḧämbïgüïẗöüs ḧëlp ẗḧäẗ ẅïll ör ẅïll nöẗ bë ḧëlp.
19:41:18 <boily> this has mëẗäl ümläüẗs.
19:41:42 <oerjan> if you want shell, you use the special command `run or the abbreviation `` (space after needed)
19:41:47 <hppavilion1> So the entirety of the arguments are one argument composed of everything after the command, separated by space?
19:42:21 <oerjan> hppavilion1: um the spaces aren't really separating anything, they're just there
19:42:38 <oerjan> given it's a single argument
19:42:51 <oerjan> `echo hi there look spaces
19:43:00 <hppavilion1> Well I mean the equivalent of ' '.join(sys.argv[1:])
19:43:34 <oerjan> hppavilion1: there's only one argument, so nothing to join.
19:43:42 -!- rdococ has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:43:55 <hppavilion1> I should've checked if he was online when I joined
19:45:49 <hppavilion1> I kind of want to create a script for this IRC
19:45:55 <FreeFull> `/usr/bin/ls -l wisdom/reflection
19:45:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: /usr/bin/ls: No such file or directory
19:46:01 <HackEgo> /bin/ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `/bin/ls --help' for more information.
19:46:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | sed s/o/ö/g
19:46:33 <oerjan> FreeFull: you don't need /bin/ls for anything other than the wisdom/ directory entry itself
19:46:45 <hppavilion1> echo "print('Hello, World!')" >> script.py
19:46:54 <hppavilion1> `echo "print('Hello, World!')" >> script.py
19:46:54 <HackEgo> "print('Hello, World!')" >> script.py
19:47:05 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ wisdom | döts
19:47:06 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "script.py", line 2, in <module> \ n \ NameError: name 'n' is not defined \ Hello World!
19:47:14 <oerjan> MDude: oh it's called döts
19:47:48 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: halp: not found
19:48:25 <HackEgo> "print 'Hello, World!'" > script.py
19:48:26 <oerjan> hppavilion1: i said, you need to use `run to get a proper shell command
19:48:41 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ sed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEIOUY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËÏÖÜŸ/"
19:48:56 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "print 'Hello, World!'" > script.py)
19:49:19 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
19:49:24 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 18 Jun 9 16:46 wisdom/reflection -> /proc/self/cmdline
19:49:45 <boily> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nsed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEHIOUWXY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËḦÏÖÜẄẌŸ/"' >bin/döts && chmod a+x bin/döts && wisdom | döts
19:49:48 <HackEgo> fẗërnöön/Fẗërnöön ïs ẗḧë ẗïmë öf däÿ ẅḧën ẗḧë Dänës üsüällÿ ëäẗ ẗḧëïr fẗërnöönërs.
19:50:03 <boily> I can ẗ, but not on a T. what the fungot.
19:51:16 <hppavilion1> `run (echo"users = ['hppavilion1']"; echo "print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:'") > script.py
19:51:18 <HackEgo> bash: echousers = ['hppavilion1']: command not found
19:51:25 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "users = ['hppavilion1']"; echo "print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:'") > script.py
19:51:36 <HackEgo> users = ['hppavilion1'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:'
19:52:34 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "for x in users:"; echo " print("\t"+x)";) >> script.ppy
19:52:37 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "for x in users:"; echo " print("\t"+x)";) >> script.py
19:52:46 <HackEgo> users = ['hppavilion1'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:' \ for x in users: \ print(t+x)
19:52:57 <edwardk> HackEgo: "A lens is just a store comonad coalgebra." -- that turns out to be a bit of a dead-end definition for a lens
19:52:59 <HackEgo> Traceback (most recent call last): \ File "script.py", line 4, in <module> \ print(t+x) \ NameError: name 't' is not defined \ These are the users who bothered to edit our file:
19:53:16 -!- boily has quit (Quit: RIFT CHICKEN).
19:53:40 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ sed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEHIOUWXY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËḦÏÖÜẄẌŸ/"
19:53:47 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "users = ['hppavilion1']"; echo "print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:'"; echo "for x in users:"; echo " print('\\t'+x)";) > script.py
19:54:00 <HackEgo> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ hppavilion1
19:54:29 <oerjan> `` sed -i '2s/^/print_args_or_input "$@" | /' bin/döts
19:54:35 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ print_args_or_input "$@" | sed -re "y/aehiotuwxyAEHIOUWXY/äëḧïöẗüẅẍÿÄËḦÏÖÜẄẌŸ/"
19:54:39 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "users = ['hppavilion1']"; echo "print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:'"; echo "for x in users:"; echo " print(x+', ')";) > script.py
19:54:51 <HackEgo> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ hppavilion1,
19:56:06 <MDude> Anyway, I'll try to think of some things that aren't common in esolangs.
19:56:23 <oerjan> MDude: hm i think that might time out because it chooses the input path
19:57:08 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "import sys"; echo "print(sys.argv)") > argv.py
19:57:31 <oerjan> as in, HackEgo hangs up for a while if you try to read the command's stdin
19:59:28 <MDude> `run wisdom) > döts
19:59:29 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: syntax error near unexpected token `)' \ bash: -c: line 0: `wisdom) > döts'
20:00:13 <oerjan> also that's what `wisdöm already does
20:00:21 <MDude> `run (wisdom) | döts
20:00:22 <HackEgo> ämïgä/Ämïgä ïs Spänïsḧ för ä fëmälë frïënd.
20:00:33 -!- trout has quit (Quit: 1 found in /dev/zero).
20:00:42 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | sed s/o/ö/g
20:01:00 <hppavilion1> It'd be awesome if we gave HackEgo a B****fuck interpreter
20:01:05 <oerjan> `` welcome test | döts
20:01:06 <HackEgo> ẗësẗ: Ẅëlcömë ẗö ẗḧë ïnẗërnäẗïönäl ḧüb för ësöẗërïc prögrämmïng längüägë dësïgn änd dëplöÿmënẗ! För mörë ïnförmäẗïön, cḧëck öüẗ öür ẅïkï: <ḧẗẗp://ësölängs.örg/>. (För ẗḧë öẗḧër kïnd öf ësöẗërïcä, ẗrÿ #ësöẗërïc ön ËFnëẗ ör D
20:01:16 <oerjan> hm as i feared it gets cut off
20:01:20 <vanila> this channel is just boring bot stuff :(
20:01:35 <oerjan> hppavilion1: it already has one
20:01:57 <oerjan> `! bf ++++++++[->+++++++<]>.
20:02:23 <oerjan> i think it has befunge too although it's a bit tricky to give 2d input
20:02:51 <hppavilion1> You have to ctrl+v the newlines or something?
20:03:09 <oerjan> most of the esolang interpreters were imported from EgoBot so are done in this `! way
20:03:30 <oerjan> hppavilion1: you cannot ctrl+v newlines in IRC, i think
20:04:06 <oerjan> hppavilion1: hm _some_ of the interpreters support \n
20:04:21 <oerjan> i'm not sure what befunge does. or if we've even tested it in HackEgo.
20:04:53 <hppavilion1> How about a stack-based messaging program?
20:06:25 <oerjan> we tend to use lambdabot for messaging around here
20:06:40 <oerjan> there's also MemoServ for the whole freenode.
20:07:14 <oerjan> HackEgo has the limitation that it cannot tell people they have messages unless they ask...
20:07:30 <hppavilion1> It's just a fun little program like `wisdome
20:08:05 <hppavilion1> enqueuemsg adds a message to the back of the queue
20:08:17 <hppavilion1> And dequeue message dequeues a message and prints int
20:10:19 * oerjan doubts it will catch on
20:11:02 -!- hppavilion1_ has joined.
20:11:11 * oerjan doubts it will catch on
20:12:14 <oerjan> no, but feel free. it doesn't sound very hard.
20:12:28 * oerjan should get something to eat
20:12:32 <hppavilion1_> I need to know what libraries are available for python on this
20:12:40 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elli
20:12:43 <vanila> hppavilion1_, write it in erlang
20:12:47 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:13:06 <HackEgo> [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER] [U+04AE CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER STRAIGHT U] [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER] [U+0420 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER ER] [U+0423 CYRILLIC CAPITAL LETTER U]
20:13:21 <hppavilion1_> Why don't you do it then? If it'd be best done in erlang
20:13:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pip: not found
20:13:52 <oerjan> erlang doesn't sound particularly well suited, given that HackEgo cannot have persistently running programs.
20:13:58 -!- ais523 has joined.
20:15:06 <oerjan> HackEgo commands don't really have net access btw, except `fetch which cannot be used from other commands.
20:15:39 <oerjan> there's a system for accessing _some_ web sites, but i think it's currently broken.
20:16:38 <oerjan> HackEgo is a bit broken.
20:19:16 <oerjan> on HackEgo, echo Yes pretty well does that.
20:19:48 <oerjan> also, what happened to my eating.
20:20:00 -!- neo__ has joined.
20:20:15 -!- nys has joined.
20:20:45 <HackEgo> neo__: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
20:21:24 <neo__> I think the ESOLs have been very well implemented.
20:21:39 <HackEgo> just intonation/Bad-tempered people can be recognized by just intonation.
20:21:46 <neo__> Ever think about regular languages?
20:21:54 <neo__> Natural language, human to human.
20:22:15 <neo__> Persuasion, finding the right words to convince someone of something.
20:23:54 <HackEgo> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ hppavilion1,
20:23:58 <neo__> Maybe not yet, but you will.
20:24:05 <MDude> Is that a channel for conlangs or something?
20:24:42 <Taneb> hppavilion1_, constructed (spoken) languages
20:24:44 <MDude> Constructel languages.
20:25:13 <MDude> Nope, no one in #RURNM
20:25:18 <neo__> If you do the math right.
20:25:30 <neo__> #RURNM is on twitter and the net.
20:25:36 <neo__> Haven't started IRC yet
20:25:54 <neo__> That still needs to be implemented.
20:25:57 <neo__> Oh, he just did that.
20:26:02 <MDude> UNLIMITED POWERRRRRRR
20:26:08 <MDude> I still have no idea what it is.
20:27:34 <MDude> https://twitter.com/hashtag/RURNM?src=hash
20:27:40 <MDude> Well there's one tweet with it.
20:27:47 <MDude> Maybe it was a typo.
20:27:56 <neo__> There have been more.
20:28:02 <neo__> logging off for now
20:28:07 -!- neo__ has quit (Quit: Page closed).
20:28:24 <hppavilion1_> `learn `? Woooow you're sooooooooo metaaaa- No.
20:28:29 <HackEgo> Learned '`?': `? Woooow you're sooooooooo metaaaa- No.
20:28:34 <HackEgo> `? Woooow you're sooooooooo metaaaa- No.
20:29:42 <tswett> Might want that to be an em dash.
20:30:37 <MDude> I would have answered that with "Are you looking for '`? The Riddler' or '`? Matthew Lesko''".
20:39:12 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
20:39:28 <oerjan> if you paid proper attention, you'd have noticed that wasn't a nonexisting entry hth
20:42:28 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
20:43:15 <HackEgo> hat/hatee-hatee-hatee-hooo
20:44:25 -!- gamemanj has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
20:45:57 <zzo38> How to modify the software in a Motorola cable box? Or is there a hardware modification that can remove the on-screen-display?
20:46:43 <zzo38> Or some other way to force it not to display
20:47:37 <HackEgo> gazpacho/You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
20:47:52 <shachaf> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/gazpacho # hth
20:50:03 -!- sebbu has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
20:51:12 <oerjan> `` grep -Rl ' ' wisdom
20:51:15 <HackEgo> wisdom/haskell \ wisdom/turkey \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/oerjan_ \ wisdom/gaspacho \ wisdom/finnish \ wisdom/sweden \ wisdom/ocean \ wisdom/ci \ wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/atrix \ wisdom/rtf \ wisdom/irrelevant info \ wisdom/ostrich \ wisdom/htdh \ wisdom/burlesque \ wisdom/canary
20:51:55 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ topic=$(echo "$1" | lowercase | sed "s/noo\+dl/nooodl/;s/ *$//") \ topic1=$(echo "$topic" | sed "s/s$//") \ cd wisdom \ if [ \( "$topic1" = "ngevd" \) -a \( -e ngevd \) ]; \ then cat /dev/urandom; \ elif [ -e "$topic" ]; \ then cat "$topic" | rnooodl; \ elif [ -e "$topic1" ]; \ then cat "$topic1" | rnooodl; \
20:52:27 <HackEgo> lrwxrwxrwx 1 5000 0 5 Jun 21 18:44 canary -> bin/?
20:52:34 <int-e> no further questions
20:53:05 <oerjan> oh right it was that link test
20:53:06 <HackEgo> ais523 shachaf ais523 oerjan oerjan ais523 oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan oerjan ais523 ais523 ais523 shachaf int-e oerjan elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott elliott ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull c00kiemon5ter Phantom_Hoover elliott oerjan shachaf elliott ais523 elliott ais523 nitia
20:53:47 <oerjan> `` rm canary; echo Spjong >canary
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20:55:09 <HackEgo> Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
20:55:14 <HackEgo> Ostrich used to be a large middle European empire in frequent conflict with Turkey. After a famine it sort of split into Ostrich/Hungry. Alas its policy of keeping its head in the sand did not get it through the Great War, and with its final attempts to take flight failing, it ended up cut into several pieces.
20:55:41 <oerjan> `` run sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/turkey wisdom/ostrich
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20:55:51 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/turkey wisdom/ostrich
20:56:14 <HackEgo> You like Gazpacho and I like Gaspacho. Let's call the whole thing off!
20:56:34 <HackEgo> Sweden is the suburb capital of Norway. It's where all the Nobel prizes are announced, except the Math Prize.
20:56:54 <HackEgo> The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
20:57:15 <oerjan> wait where is the / / in that
20:57:33 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /' wisdom/{gaspacho,sweden}
20:58:33 <HackEgo> Finnish suomalaiset ei Perkeleistä on hakkapeliittaan. Ei saa peittää. Parasta ennen!
20:58:44 <HackEgo> Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
20:58:58 <HackEgo> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
20:59:20 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /g' wisdom/{finnish,spam,ci}
20:59:34 -!- variable has joined.
20:59:41 <HackEgo> Atrix is a brand of hand cream. Not to be confused with atriq.
20:59:56 <HackEgo> RTF stands for Rich's Text Format, invented by Rich Burlew. In addition to plain text it supports simple stick figures.
21:00:01 <HackEgo> HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho.
21:00:19 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /g' wisdom/{atrix,rtf,htdh}
21:00:54 <HackEgo> oerjan_ is oerjan and ørjan's chimæric clone. he shows up on irc when the network is having trouble.
21:01:10 <HackEgo> KHL?%y9vnkM_v46$Tn`ʋxkH2gqH;!;2F(zإ2CmXW
21:01:15 <HackEgo> Burlesque is only the sexiest language on Earth. (See: http://mroman.ch/burlesque)
21:01:43 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /g' wisdom/{oerjan_,burlesque}
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21:02:06 <oerjan> `` grep -Rl ' ' wisdom
21:02:07 <HackEgo> wisdom/haskell \ wisdom/ocean \ wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/irrelevant info \ wisdom/ostrich
21:02:17 <HackEgo> ¯\(°_o)/¯ is a misspelling of ¯\(°_o)/¯
21:02:29 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /g' wisdom/{ostrich}
21:02:30 <HackEgo> sed: can't read wisdom/{ostrich}: No such file or directory
21:02:38 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ / /g' wisdom/ostrich
21:02:48 <HackEgo> Unbound implicit parameter (?haskell::Wisdom) \ arising from a use of implicit parameter `?haskell'
21:02:53 <shachaf> what's wrong with double spaces
21:03:02 <HackEgo> The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
21:03:25 -!- Patashu has joined.
21:03:38 <ais523> programming terminology I really like: "truthy"/"falsey" referring to how if-like constructs see the truth values of things that aren't booleans
21:03:40 <oerjan> `` grep ' ' wisdom/ocean
21:03:40 <HackEgo> The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping.
21:03:43 -!- mihow has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
21:04:05 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ *$/' wisdom/ocean
21:04:06 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 6: unterminated `s' command
21:04:09 -!- mihow has joined.
21:04:11 <oerjan> `` sed -i 's/ *$//' wisdom/ocean
21:04:12 <shachaf> `` echo -n '['; cat wisdom/ocean; echo -n ']'
21:04:14 <HackEgo> [The Pacific Ocean is half the world and surrounded by fire. The Atlantic Ocean is less cool than its giant underwater mountain range. The Arctic Ocean is cold. The Indian Ocean is full of typhoons and non-Eurocentric shipping. \ ]
21:04:45 <oerjan> `` grep -Rl ' ' wisdom
21:04:46 <HackEgo> wisdom/haskell \ wisdom/reflection \ wisdom/irrelevant info
21:05:04 <shachaf> why do you hate double spaces so much
21:05:04 <oerjan> shachaf: some people seem to hate them tdnh
21:05:21 <shachaf> the real question is why do you hate inconsistency
21:05:27 * oerjan swats shachaf -----###
21:05:32 <shachaf> i was fine with fixing them opportunistically
21:05:49 <HackEgo> algol/ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
21:06:19 <shachaf> `learn ALOGL is a logarithmic language.
21:06:21 <HackEgo> Learned 'alogl': ALOGL is a logarithmic language.
21:09:01 <HackEgo> firefly/FireFly was a short-running but well-loved sci-fi TV series released in 2003, starring Nathan Fillion and directed and written by Joss Whedon.
21:09:16 <HackEgo> mauke/mauke is a Master Archer. Caution! He can shoot your PRIVMSG with creative arrows!
21:09:23 <HackEgo> right/Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
21:09:42 <HackEgo> group/groups are just loops with the property of associativity
21:09:56 <HackEgo> @/@ is an OS made out of only the finest vapour
21:10:03 <HackEgo> zimbabwe/olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
21:10:11 <HackEgo> browser/A browser is a Gopher client for convenient access to Gopher services and documents.
21:10:24 <HackEgo> koen/Koen vit au haut de la Tour Eiffel (coordonnées approximatives).
21:10:33 <HackEgo> go/Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
21:10:39 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir/lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends.
21:10:45 <HackEgo> brainfuck/brainfuck is the integral of the family of terrible esolangs.
21:11:12 <HackEgo> apt-get/apt-get installs whatever you wanted, plus whatever Mark Shuttleworth wanted.
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21:12:20 <oren_> `le/rn lol/lol stands for laughing out legends
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21:14:24 <oerjan> `learn heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
21:14:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'heh': heh stands for hope ectoplasm helps.
21:15:41 <oerjan> darn now i had an idea for lol
21:16:22 <HackEgo> error.log \ \ emoticons: \ gaaan \ gaan \ kyaa \ shrug \ useless \ \ etc: \ luarocks
21:16:40 <oerjan> `` echo lol >emoticons/drowning
21:22:08 <oren_> `` echo o凸 >emoticons/flipbird
21:22:42 <oren_> `` echo 凸 >emoticons/flipbird
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21:23:12 <HackEgo> [U+51F8 CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-51F8]
21:23:40 <oerjan> that doesn't look very CJK
21:24:41 <oren_> It is apparently used in the word 凸凹 (dekoboko) meaning bumpy
21:26:06 <oren_> hmm those are fun kanji to write
21:26:15 <ais523> is that the kanji version of onomatopoeia?
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21:31:56 <oren_> There are only a few kanji which are unequivocally pictograms...
21:35:53 <pikhq> Rather a lot more if you count kanji which began life as pictograms.
21:37:16 <pikhq> Oh, and 龍. Can't forget that one.
21:37:22 <oren_> 雨 is one that still looks like its meaning
21:37:25 <fowl> Brain-modifying self-fuck
21:39:56 <fowl> Up modifying markself
21:40:15 <pikhq> So there's about 600 that are literally pictograms (mutated or otherwise)
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21:43:33 <oren_> menaing shishkabobs
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22:05:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43269 * Hppavilion1 * (+2023) Created Page
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22:07:32 <hppavilion1> Yaaaaay I wrote a language that actually has a specification
22:09:42 <myname> i am tempted to write the rainbow
22:15:15 <oren_> hppavilion1: so the BF program is interpreted on a 36-bit BF?
22:18:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43270&oldid=43269 * Hppavilion1 * (+9) 36 bit Brainfuck
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22:25:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43271&oldid=43270 * Hppavilion1 * (+423) Variants.
22:28:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43272&oldid=43271 * Hppavilion1 * (+62) Equivalents (Why won't links to categories show?)
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22:29:42 <myname> it's half past twelve here
22:30:42 <myname> hppavilion1: feature request: you should be able to get the number of chars
22:31:16 <myname> i'd do something like "the first cell contains the length and is omitted in regards of formating"
22:31:36 <myname> like: i want to rainvow everything
22:31:49 <myname> for this i need to know how many cells to write
22:31:59 <myname> or i have to loop forever
22:32:17 <myname> not sure if the number in the first cdml is a good idea, though
22:32:23 <myname> it would.breal the base 36
22:33:15 <hppavilion1> Well it could be that BFML isn't 36-bit brainfuck so much as 36+-bit brainfuck
22:33:56 <myname> well, it has several other disadvantages
22:34:07 <hppavilion1> Or we could make it so , always inputs the program length...
22:34:18 <myname> thatks what i thought, too
22:34:55 <myname> better: , inputs the number of the text minus the position of the current cell
22:35:18 <myname> so if , returns 0 you can break out of a loop because you formatted everything
22:35:44 <hppavilion1> It would return the current character count?
22:36:07 <myname> "Hello world" is 11 chars wide
22:36:54 <myname> [[-]+>,] would bold.everything
22:37:11 <myname> the first , would give 11
22:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43273&oldid=43272 * Hppavilion1 * (+111) , command
22:37:53 <myname> you would zero the current cell out, make it a 1 for bold and move to the next cell
22:38:15 <myname> if , reads 0 you are actually behind the whole sting
22:38:50 <myname> variations that don't break base 36: , only returns 0 or 1
22:41:38 <hppavilion1> myname: Can I get your esolangs account so I don't lose track of you?
22:42:13 <myname> it's myname, but i am here practically all the time, too
22:42:32 <hppavilion1> If I remove 4 bits from text size it's base 32 and much neater
22:43:58 <myname> if you make , return 0 or 1 your text size isn't limited
22:44:10 <myname> it'd actually become eof check
22:45:30 <hppavilion1> How about we use a different character for eof detector?
22:46:58 <myname> it's pretty confusing since in normal bf . does not change the cells
22:47:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43274&oldid=43273 * Hppavilion1 * (+29) . operator
22:47:22 <myname> but i do think not having only 0 and 1 is also nice
22:47:23 <hppavilion1> Well the period means the end of a setnence
22:47:47 <hppavilion1> 1 and 0 is cleaner and allows for infinte file length
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22:48:09 <myname> another idea: , could be (text size - cell pos) mod 35 + 1
22:48:35 <myname> in this way you always have > 0 on text and 0 on eof
22:48:56 <boily> hppavilion1: in which time zone are you? what are your approximative coördinates and body weigh?
22:49:41 <hppavilion1> Well, I'm usually on Hong Kong time but I _should_ be on AKST :P
22:50:28 <pikhq> Could I get that in UTC offset?
22:50:56 <pikhq> Is that intended to be Alaska's time zone?
22:51:52 <boily> pikhq: michigan is probably -5. hong kong is +9.
22:52:04 <pikhq> I didn't know what AKST was.
23:02:16 <lambdabot> KLAN 242253Z 26006KT 10SM CLR 24/12 A3009 RMK AO2 SLP189 T02440122
23:04:08 <tswett> Michigan is -5 outside of Move the Clocks Forward For a While Time.
23:13:44 <myname> i will write stuff in a bunch of hours
23:13:44 <hppavilion1> I'm considering implementing a befunge-like EsoMULang
23:14:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category:Markup Languages]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43275 * Hppavilion1 * (+20) Created Page
23:16:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43276&oldid=43274 * Hppavilion1 * (+20) Categories
23:17:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43277&oldid=43276 * Hppavilion1 * (+0)
23:18:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck Markup Language]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43278&oldid=43277 * Hppavilion1 * (+18) 2015
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23:20:29 <boily> haven't seen them talk yet, but they've been joining the chännel for a while.
23:21:04 <hppavilion1> I don't want it to just be befunge marking up text
23:21:15 -!- llue has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
23:21:23 <hppavilion1> And I definitely don't want something like the output of the stack joined together in HTML
23:22:45 <hppavilion1> `learn HTMarriageL I now pronounce you Markup Language and StyleSheet Language
23:22:49 <HackEgo> Learned 'htmarriagel': HTMarriageL I now pronounce you Markup Language and StyleSheet Language
23:23:12 <hppavilion1> OOOR I could make a stylesheet language for BFML
23:27:07 <boily> stylesheet languages for this kind of thing resembles syntax hiliting hth
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23:41:20 <boily> you're still stuck with me.
23:45:08 <zzo38> I am on here, but, still I don't quite know by now.
23:47:06 <HackEgo> lifthrasiir/lifthrasiir is shunned by the rest of his country for being no good at League of Legends.
23:47:28 <boily> I think I have Starcraft about him...
23:48:04 <HackEgo> internationale/You have been reported to the House Un-American Activities Committee
23:48:34 <shachaf> `culprits wisdom/internationale
23:48:37 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 elliott FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan FreeFull oerjan
23:48:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43279 * Hppavilion1 * (+320) Created Page
23:49:40 <shachaf> oerjan: i thought the internationale united the human race
23:50:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Purely Functional Imperative Language]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43280 * Hppavilion1 * (+11) Filler
23:51:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Ideas]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43281 * Hppavilion1 * (+102) Created Page
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00:03:00 <oren_> did they send me daughters when I asked for sons
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00:11:16 * boily wields his trusty mapole
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00:54:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1/Languages]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43282 * Hppavilion1 * (+251) Created Page
00:57:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Table]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43283 * Hppavilion1 * (+156) Created page with "This is a kewlzez language. Can you improve the specification? --~~~~"
01:01:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43284&oldid=43258 * Hppavilion1 * (-141)
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01:27:12 <boily> if I'm logged in, I exist. it's a Canadian thing: intermittent corporeality.
01:28:46 <boily> it was a running gag some time ago, where Canada's existence wasn't proved yet.
01:28:56 <boily> I do implement stuff, yes.
01:29:17 <hppavilion1> There's this really good one that you may have been on when it was being discussed
01:29:33 <hppavilion1> I think it has potential to _actually_ be useful
01:31:27 <boily> vying for TCness is usually the First Step©® for having a useful programming language hth
01:32:19 <oren_> Eh, TCness isn't reall necessary to be useful
01:32:23 <shachaf> boily: turing completeness is scow
01:32:30 <hppavilion1> It wouldn't be directly based on the original design
01:32:30 <HackEgo> codensity/Codensity is just mass per volume with all the arrows reversed.
01:32:31 <shachaf> you gotta work hard to avoid it but it's worth it
01:34:56 * boily ducktapes a piece of cardboard with "PRO COMPLETENESS" written on it on his mapole and manifests while shouting random slogans
01:35:33 <boily> whatever's handy. if I were to implement an esointerpreter now, I'd be using Python.
01:35:44 <boily> (perhaps even Java, if I'm feeling particularly evil for the day.)
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01:40:33 <HackEgo> boily is monetizing a broterhood scheme with the Guardian of Lachine, apparently involving cookie dealing. He's also a NaniDispenser, a Trigotillectomic Man Eating Chicken and a METARologist. He is seriously lacking in the f-word department.
01:40:53 <HackEgo> fungot/fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
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01:41:08 <HackEgo> oerjan oerjan elliott boily Bike FreeFull oerjan FreeFull shachaf shachaf nitia
01:41:18 <boily> oh, you were timing out.
01:41:26 <HackEgo> nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
01:41:32 <boily> I said that I use Python, or maybe even Java if I'm feeling evil.
01:42:00 <hppavilion_> I've been looking for someone who uses python to implement :P
01:42:04 <boily> I implemented quite a non-homeopathic quantity of esolangs in Ruby, too. but that was back in the day, and haven't touched that in a few years.
01:43:08 <boily> I may have done one or two in perl.
01:43:29 * hppavilion_ laughs silently at the phrase "non-homeopathic"
01:44:03 <hppavilion_> So do you want to try to implement an improved variant on Table?
01:44:51 <boily> I could coach you :)
01:45:05 <boily> do you have a working draft atm?
01:45:32 <hppavilion_> Well, I was going to start with the specification
01:45:52 <hppavilion_> I'm basing it on Haskell and the original doc
01:46:52 <hppavilion_> I decided that as a Working and possibly Final name, I'm calling this derivative Peano
01:48:25 <hppavilion_> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IhFJ9patZ-CINalHAyDMTxfdwyopGnkiZBtAljBVYY/edit?usp=sharing
01:49:32 <HackEgo> apt-get/apt-get installs whatever you wanted, plus whatever Mark Shuttleworth wanted.
01:49:58 <HackEgo> phantom_______hoover/It doesn't get any better than this.
01:50:04 <boily> hppavilion_: don't worry. I have weird malamanteau habits.
01:50:08 <HackEgo> php/php is the PigeonHole Principle
01:51:21 <hppavilion_> That is, itself, a reference due to the Avengers movie
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01:53:11 <oren_> I usually writ things in C or C++
01:53:32 <hppavilion_> It's a portmaneau, a malapropism, a malamanteau, a noun, and a bunch of other things
01:53:33 <boily> hppavilion_: careful about that word, "category." it has MEANINGS in this here chännel.
01:53:50 <HackEgo> Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
01:54:14 <shachaf> do you prefer bicategories or cellcategories
01:54:16 <boily> hppavilion_: it's usually to the Rabbit Hole of Category Theory. caveat emptor and all that sort of thing.
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01:55:59 <hppavilion1> -ChanServ- [#esoteric] Welcome to the esoteric programming channel! Wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki>
01:56:08 <shachaf> chanserv doesn't send messages hth
01:56:34 <hppavilion1> Probably has to do with the fact that I'm running on Freenode
01:56:36 <HackEgo> chess/Chess is a complex boardgame, where players exchange unclear royal steaks until they decide which of them has lost. The game is recorded through the Gringmuth Moving Pineapple Notation.
01:56:54 <ais523> shachaf: chanserv does send it, but it often goes to the server tab
01:56:57 <ais523> due to the order in which things happen
01:58:43 <shachaf> irssi has surprising behaviors for certain types of messages
01:58:53 <zzo38> PLUS(X,Y): X[^Y=]; Y. PRED(X): A,B=0; X[B[^A=]=1]; A. TIMES(X,Y): A=0; X[PLUS(A=,Y)]; A. MINUS(X,Y): Y[PRED(X=)]; X. EQUAL(X,Y): A=1; MINUS(X,Y)[A=0]; MINUS(Y,X)[A=0]; A. PUT(F(),X,Y,Z): A=F(Z); EQUAL(X,Z)[A=Y]; A. # That is a new kind of programming language I suppose
01:58:56 <shachaf> Ah, but you don't use irssi
01:59:29 <vanila> it looks like functional programming
02:00:39 <zzo38> Yes, I suppose, it is like functional programming but very strange
02:00:57 <ais523> zzo38: I'm currently working on a language which is like object oriented programming but very strange
02:01:02 <ais523> I call the paradigm "object cooriented programming"
02:01:21 <zzo38> ais523: O, OK, let's see when you have something, you can show us what it is, I guess
02:02:29 <ais523> it's not really finished, I can post what I have if you like
02:02:46 <ais523> I just started trying to write a program, I've been trying to implement an if statement
02:02:57 <ais523> to see what problems I went into
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02:03:41 <ais523> coppro: bearing in mind unfinished, everything is subject to change, etc.: http://sprunge.us/VjPi
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02:04:55 <ais523> note: the language is designed in particular so that you can static-analyse all the asserts; however I don't know if I succeeded at that
02:05:05 <ais523> and I'm not sure the way basic types work is quite what I want
02:08:23 <hppavilion1> So how does co-object oriented programming work?
02:09:25 <ais523> hppavilion1: you call methods by setting properties on objects, the methods notice and start running, then they take their arguments by searching all the objects in existence for properties saying that they're the arguments
02:09:51 <ais523> and scope is done in terms of property names, you tend to generate a lot of local/ephemeral properties that can exist on everything
02:10:52 <ais523> another of my favourite things about TCTOE is that it does recursion with a queue, rather than a stack
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02:11:08 <ais523> there was definitely a good reason for this originally, but I can't remember what it is
02:11:17 <ais523> I think something to do with the verification?
02:12:11 <ais523> because it makes no sense :-)
02:12:37 <ais523> then I had to make tail recursion not use it so that you could actually do things like nested if statements
02:12:57 <ais523> so I added a tail-recursion keyword, and called it goto because a) precedent, b) hilarity
02:13:20 <ais523> goto [_old_this].then.run!;
02:13:32 <hppavilion1> For some reason webchat no longer scrolls down as new messges occur
02:13:38 <ais523> there we go, code that would be very difficult to translate into any other language in a general way
02:13:41 <ais523> hppavilion1: scroll to the bottom
02:14:44 <ais523> hmm, not sure I can help then
02:14:59 -!- variable has joined.
02:15:14 <hppavilion1> Do you want to help me write a language specification?
02:16:32 <variable> hppavilion1: but I'm happy to help you write a spec
02:17:40 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
02:17:47 <constant> hppavilion1: see, I told you I change
02:18:42 <hppavilion1> https://docs.google.com/document/d/15IhFJ9patZ-CINalHAyDMTxfdwyopGnkiZBtAljBVYY/edit?usp=sharing
02:18:51 <hppavilion1> Hopefully no one will destroy everything :P
02:20:06 <ais523> constant: well you don't change any more :-P
02:20:16 <constant> ais523: I'm a mutable constant
02:20:18 <ais523> (except in languages like Forte and INTERCAL)
02:21:00 <ais523> do we have an INTERCAL interp in here?
02:21:15 <ais523> !intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
02:21:22 <ais523> `! intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
02:21:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/intercal: not found
02:21:30 <ais523> `! c-intercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
02:21:31 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/!: 4: exec: ibin/c-intercal: not found
02:21:38 <HackEgo> 1l \ 2l \ adjust \ asm \ axo \ bch \ befunge \ befunge98 \ bf \ bf16 \ bf32 \ bf8 \ bf_txtgen \ boolfuck \ c \ cintercal \ clcintercal \ cxx \ dimensifuck \ forth \ glass \ glypho \ haskell \ help \ java \ k \ kipple \ lambda \ lazyk \ linguine \ malbolge \ pbrain \ perl \ qbf \ rail \ rhotor \ sadol \ sceql \ sh \ trigger \ udage01 \ underload \ u
02:21:46 <ais523> `! cintercal DO READ OUT #5 DO GIVE UP
02:21:56 -!- f|`-`|f has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
02:22:54 <ais523> `! clcintercal DO .1 <- .2/#5 DO .1 <- #6 DO READ OUT #5 PLEASE GIVE UP
02:23:12 <ais523> `! clcintercal DO .1 <- .2/#5 DO .2 <- #6 DO READ OUT #5 PLEASE GIVE UP
02:23:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `ls: not found
02:24:08 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
02:24:11 <ais523> hppavilion1: is that what you wanted to do?
02:24:36 <ais523> hppavilion1: it's just a file
02:24:41 <ais523> ls will simply report that it exists
02:24:49 <ais523> you run it with "`! help", which is what I just did
02:24:57 <hppavilion1> I was trying to identify whether it was a dir or a file
02:25:51 <ais523> why would it be a directory?
02:25:56 <ais523> (especially if I can execute it?)
02:26:02 <HackEgo> -rwxr-xr-x 1 5000 0 132 Apr 15 07:51 ibin/help
02:26:45 <hppavilion1> You can kind of execute directories in python :P
02:26:54 <ais523> well it has the +x flag set, so
02:26:59 <HackEgo> The ! or interp command calls various language interpreters transfered from old EgoBot. Try `url ibin/ for a list.
02:27:07 <HackEgo> bash: ibin: command not found
02:27:11 <HackEgo> bash: ./ibin: Is a directory
02:27:21 <ais523> that's the message I expected (not the usual "access denied")
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02:31:47 <HackEgo> funpun/funpuns fceø fbz fryyrev naq pbfcynlf Arcrgn Yrvwba ba jrrxraqf.
02:32:21 <HackEgo> fact/facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
02:32:27 <HackEgo> rholypoly/A rholypoly is an edible Greek species of Armadillidiidae. Goes well with garlic!
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02:33:55 <ais523> if you `wisdom five times do you have to delete one?
02:33:57 <HackEgo> 138) <Phantom_Hoover> It's only been 2 months since anyone last made a commit! <alise> WRONG 8 WEEKS
02:33:58 <HackEgo> 422) <Sgeo> My memory passed <monqy> rest in peace sgeos memory
02:34:00 <HackEgo> 613) <ais523> the parser would be even simpler if I didn't try to do type inference in it
02:34:02 <HackEgo> 536) <Gregor> But whereas the Zune UI makes one think "I want to kill myself", the Windows CE UI makes one think "I want to kill myself, but first kill my parents as punishment for bringing into this world someone who would one day own a Windows CE device."
02:34:03 <HackEgo> 29) <oklopol> anyway, torture would be fun to experience, true <oklopol> should put that on my todo list
02:34:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quote?: not found
02:34:26 <HackEgo> 1200) <MDude> It seems there aren't any expert systems for answering questions on the nature of expert systems.
02:34:31 <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
02:34:42 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
02:34:57 <shachaf> ais523: I tried that a few times.
02:35:01 <pikhq> `quote <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
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02:35:10 <shachaf> But deleting wisdom seems kind of rude.
02:35:16 <shachaf> I guess deleting quotes is rude too.
02:35:24 <HackEgo> zimbabwe/olsner's desk points zimbabwards. it is highly dependent on tswett's michiganic orientation.
02:35:25 <HackEgo> certainly/We don't know what certainly is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
02:35:29 <HackEgo> real fast nora's hair salon 3: shear disaster download/Real Fast Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download is the most readable functional programming language out there.
02:35:29 <HackEgo> lachine/Unholy portal to China, closely guarded from Ëvil by Roujo.
02:35:29 <HackEgo> brain/Brains are just receptacles for bricks.
02:35:35 <ais523> pikhq: yu meant `addquote
02:35:52 <pikhq> `addquote <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
02:35:58 <HackEgo> 1245) <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
02:35:58 <pikhq> That I believe is my first added quote.
02:36:57 <hppavilion1> `addquote <pikhq> `addquote <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
02:36:59 <HackEgo> 1246) <pikhq> `addquote <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
02:37:35 <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context
02:37:41 <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there
02:37:54 <HackEgo> *poof* <pikhq> `addquote <ais523> do we seriously not do quotes any more?
02:38:11 <hppavilion1> It's weird for someone to addquote an addquote
02:38:42 <ais523> not really, it's been tried way too many times
02:38:49 <ais523> not sure if any still survive
02:38:49 <HackEgo> 318) <elliott_> `addquote <olsner> two quotes about quotes about django <olsner> I guess the worst part is that I appear in all three hackego quotes about django <olsner> elliott_: another quote? you're not helping :/ \ 774) <zzo38> Do you think " `addquote [with no context] < zzo38> Do you think psychology is worse, or not?" is worse, or not? \
02:39:01 <shachaf> I think that's actually a good quote.
02:39:20 <shachaf> `addquote <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there
02:39:22 <HackEgo> 1246) <ais523> hppavilion1: there's not much point in `addquoting an `addquote unless the person who added it was somehow significant, or there's interesting context <ais523> because you can tell it was added from the fact that it's there
02:39:51 <HackEgo> 612) <elliott> ais523: I pronounce "xor" by punching myself in the face and then "or"
02:42:02 <HackEgo> metasepia/metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
02:42:02 <HackEgo> canada/Canada is Big Scotland. Like, you know, very big.
02:42:07 <HackEgo> drone/drones are tools used to perform certain criminal actions that were not possible in ancient times.
02:42:08 <HackEgo> cow/A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees.
02:42:08 <HackEgo> supermarioperator/supermarioperator is one of many confusing operators as defined in Control.Plumbers.Monad. Your sanity is in another castle.
02:43:34 <shachaf> When did you say your thesis would be published?
02:43:59 <ais523> shachaf: pedantic answer is "I didn't", but I have to submit the corrections early in July
02:44:06 <ais523> I don't know how long it'll take to be published after the corrections are submitted
02:44:28 <shachaf> Instead of "but" you could say "and".
02:44:37 <ais523> there isn't any actual reason for a long delay at that point, so it'll just be typical bureaucratic delay plus a few days
02:44:40 <shachaf> That way you'd seem slightly more pedantic and still communicate useful information.
02:44:47 <ais523> shachaf: haha, that would be even more pedantic, yes
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03:09:21 <constant> hppavilion1: sorry: am in airport and things happened
03:11:01 <tswett> @tell boily implement Al Dente twbh hth
03:12:21 <tswett> `le/rn wfraatw/A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
03:12:33 <HackEgo> A WFRAATW is a well-founded recursive acronym akin to "WFRAATW".
03:12:51 <tswett> Did you know? The acronym "WFRAATW" is a WFRAATW.
03:13:24 <ZombieCheney> Ezra Wacky Shark is an anagram of my meat world name
03:13:25 <tswett> Due to the fact that it's a well-founded recursive acronym, along with the identity kinship.
03:14:19 <tswett> Oh crap, now I need to find out what some good anagrams of my name are.
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03:15:18 <tswett> I assumed you meant "please do not respond to the message 'If you are not a bot, please do not respond.'".
03:15:39 <tswett> This is a haiku / but it is probably not / a very good one.
03:17:00 <ZombieCheney> Just one last check, but I don't think you're a bot.
03:17:29 <ZombieCheney> I've been battling replicants for months, I thought I was losing my mind
03:17:45 <shachaf> tromp_: Where's your Go rules page?
03:17:54 <ais523> ZombieCheney: there are quite a few non-bots here, also quite a few bots
03:18:02 <tswett> Hey, you should see *my* Go rules page.
03:18:11 <tswett> ZombieCheney: are you asking me?
03:19:11 <hppavilion1> ZombieCheney can order undead drone strikes on you
03:19:36 <tswett> Here's my Go rules page: http://senseis.xmp.net/?BridgeGo
03:19:37 <ZombieCheney> I was here earlier, used an alternate pseudonym.
03:19:50 <tswett> I will now explain why my name turned red.
03:20:15 <tswett> of that was not among the really good, why? :) but it was not all the time that we weren't of the biggest
03:20:43 <ZombieCheney> My rules are here: https://rootsuprevolution.wordpress.com/
03:20:46 <tswett> I disagree the very time it; but among the already amaze me, it would Haskell (this).
03:21:55 <hppavilion1> I want ZombieCheney to figure out on his own
03:23:59 <hppavilion1> I don't understand what the page break means either
03:24:08 <hppavilion1> But I don't think it has anything to do with the red
03:24:19 <ZombieCheney> Neither do I, I just started to learn coding, I'm flying blind here,
03:24:33 <tswett> `run echo Zombie''Cheney
03:24:50 <ZombieCheney> There has to be code involved in turning stuff red, at some point in the process.
03:25:08 <hppavilion1> But the thing it's designed to do isn't code related
03:25:19 <ZombieCheney> The programming language i know best is "english".
03:25:21 <hppavilion1> Keep in mind that IRC isn't just for programmers
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03:25:28 <tswett> `run echo 'Q'u'o't'a't'i'o'n' 'm'a'r'k's' 'a'r'e' 'f'u'n'
03:26:04 <oren_> IRC isn't just for programmers?
03:28:14 <hppavilion1> So would it be significant for someone to say your name
03:28:52 <ZombieCheney> Ah yes, I see it now. Whenever someone says your name, it highlights it in red so that it's easy for you to pick out,
03:29:08 <hppavilion1> And the title of the tab alerts you too if you're tabbed out
03:30:08 <ZombieCheney> 6.46 oren and orin oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He’ll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon. orin is oren’s evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line. •
03:30:42 <HackEgo> c#/C Pound is Java's good twin.
03:31:43 <HackEgo> c/C is the language of��V�>WIד�.��Segmentation fault
03:31:52 <HackEgo> group/groups are just loops with the property of associativity
03:31:53 <oren_> ZombieCheney: I'm not a bot, just ahuman who is only partially paying attention to IRC
03:33:51 <hppavilion1> `learn ZombieCheney is a bastard who ends sentences with commas such that we think there's more coming
03:33:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'zombiecheney': ZombieCheney is a bastard who ends sentences with commas such that we think there's more coming
03:33:55 <oren_> ZombieCheney: I bought some batteries, but they weren't included
03:34:14 <HackEgo> ZombieCheney is a bastard who ends sentences with commas such that we think there's more coming
03:34:54 <ZombieCheney> All of you in the red, you just failed my Turing test. 'learn everyone but ZombieCheney is a bot
03:35:18 <hppavilion1> B) It must come at the beginning of a line
03:35:19 <HackEgo> Learned 'i': I am not a bot
03:35:31 <hppavilion1> There might've already been something there
03:35:51 <oren_> `culprits wisdom/i
03:35:53 <HackEgo> ZombieCheney oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 shachaf
03:36:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'zombiecheney': ZombieCheney is neo
03:36:22 <HackEgo> abort: unknown revision 'wisdom/i'!
03:36:56 <oren_> `culprits wisdom/zombiecheney
03:37:17 <HackEgo> lol stands for laughing out legends
03:37:54 <ZombieCheney> This is going to go down in history, my robotic Friends.
03:38:11 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elli
03:38:15 <HackEgo> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ hppavilion1,
03:38:42 <oren_> `cat emoticons/kyaa
03:39:21 <oren_> `cat emoticons/gaaan
03:39:41 <ZombieCheney> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ ZombieCheney, aka neo, aka zackjk
03:40:19 <HackEgo> users = ['hppavilion1'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:' \ for x in users: \ print(x+', ')
03:40:23 <tswett> `run echo emoticons/*; cat emoticons/*
03:40:25 <HackEgo> emoticons/drowning emoticons/flipbird emoticons/gaaan emoticons/gaan emoticons/kyaa emoticons/shrug emoticons/useless \ lol \ 凸 \ ｶﾞ~(ﾟﾛﾟ;)~ﾝ \ (°Д°) \ (≧∇≦)/ \ ¯\(°_o)/¯ \ オラオラオラ（三･o･）三☆三（｀ε´三）無駄無駄無駄無駄
03:41:07 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "users = ['hppavilion1', 'Not ZombieCheney'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:' \ for x in users: \ print(x+', ')") > script.py
03:41:18 <HackEgo> File "script.py", line 1 \ users = ['hppavilion1', 'Not ZombieCheney'] \ print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:' \ for x in users: \ print(x+', ') \ ^ \ SyntaxError: unexpec
03:41:20 <HackEgo> Learned 'phi=e^i*t': phi=e^i*t
03:41:48 <HackEgo> Learned 'phi=e^i*t': phi=e^i*t is the last equation
03:41:55 <tswett> What's so last about it?
03:41:57 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "users = ['hppavilion1', 'Not ZombieCheney']"; echo "print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file:'"; echo "for x in users:"; echo " print(x+', ')") > script.py
03:42:06 <HackEgo> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ hppavilion1, \ Not ZombieCheney,
03:42:10 <tswett> Hey... I wonder if better is to best as latter is to last.
03:42:50 <ZombieCheney> These are the users who bothered to edit our file:\ zackjk
03:43:11 <ZombieCheney> These are the users who bothered to edit our file: \ all
03:43:27 <hppavilion1> `run (echo "users = ['hppavilion1', 'Not ZombieCheney']"; echo "print 'These are the users who bothered to edit our file (If you did it, you are hardcore):'"; echo "for x in users:"; echo " print(x+', ')") > script.py
03:44:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'fuck': Fuck yeah, ZombieCheney is hardcore!
03:44:33 <tswett> Looks like the answer is pretty much.
03:44:34 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:45:21 <tswett> Bot, bettra, betst. Læt, lætra, lætest.
03:45:32 <hppavilion1> `learn fuck When a mommy and a daddy love each other _very_ much...
03:45:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'fuck': fuck When a mommy and a daddy love each other _very_ much...
03:45:35 <ZombieCheney> `learn <ZombieCheney> wipes the floor with <oren_>
03:45:39 <HackEgo> Learned '<zombiecheney>': <ZombieCheney> wipes the floor with <oren_>
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03:46:12 <oren_> `cat emoticons/flipbird
03:46:12 <HackEgo> cat: emoticons/flipbird : No such file or directory
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03:46:21 <tswett> Hmmm, maybe the wisdom for "fuck" should be a Quanc Phuc Dong quote.
03:46:22 <zzo38> This is a idea of Magic: the Gathering card: Return up to five target lands to their owner's hand, and then each player who returned any card to his hand in this way must draw that many cards. ;; Cannot be used while there is a creature, enchantment, artifact, or planeswalker on the stack.
03:46:26 <tswett> Lemme come up with some examples.
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03:46:33 <HackEgo> drowning \ flipbird \ gaaan \ gaan \ kyaa \ shrug \ useless
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03:46:48 <ais523> zzo38: why not make it a sorcery, rather than that weird stack restriction?
03:46:51 <oren_> `cat emoticons/flipbird
03:46:55 <tswett> "Fuck you and wash the dishes. Wash the dishes and fuck you."
03:47:12 <zzo38> ais523: Because, you are still allowed to respond to sorceries, instants, and triggered and activated abilities.
03:47:14 <ZombieCheney> `learn the wisdom for fuck is that we need not indulge in illusions.
03:47:18 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdom': the wisdom for fuck is that we need not indulge in illusions.
03:47:26 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:47:30 <tswett> "Fuck all irregular verbs. Fuck seven irregular verbs."
03:47:37 <HackEgo> wisdom is always factually accurate, except for this entry, and uh that other one? it started with like, an ø?
03:47:51 <hppavilion1> Always check if therer was something better first
03:48:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: revery: not found
03:48:18 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:48:34 <HackEgo> Learned 'revery': revery defeat
03:48:35 <oren_> `cat emoticons/useless
03:48:36 <HackEgo> オラオラオラ（三･o･）三☆三（｀ε´三）無駄無駄無駄無駄
03:48:43 <ais523> zzo38: yes, but I'm not sure that allowing that is worth how much more complex it makes the card
03:49:10 -!- GeekDude has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
03:49:12 <ais523> actually today Wizards previewed a card (i.e. they'll be printing it soon) which has an "If it's your turn" clause but it's a sorcery
03:49:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'that': that is worth the complexity
03:49:46 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:50:02 <zzo38> O, so, that "if" clause fail if something allowing to cast sorcery on opponent's turn is used, I suppose (there are many ways, including madness)
03:50:09 <ZombieCheney> `learn 42. That’s it. That’s The Answer. But you never really understood what The Ultimate Question was, did you? So The Answer doesn’t make sense without it. If you knew what the The Ultimate Question was, you might understand why The Answer is 42, and if that makes sense to you, you are one enlightened dude, dude. Do you wanna know The Ultimate Question? Are you ready? Ok, DON’T PANIC: What do you get if you
03:50:15 <HackEgo> Learned '42.': 42. That’s it. That’s The Answer. But you never really understood what The Ultimate Question was, did you? So The Answer doesn’t make sense without it. If you knew what the The Ultimate Question was, you might understand why The Answer is 42, and if that makes sense to you, you are one enlightened dude, dude. Do you wanna
03:50:33 <ais523> zzo38: right, most people think it's because the new card would otherwise form a broken combo with veldaken orrery
03:51:05 <hppavilion1> NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERD
03:51:13 <ZombieCheney> `learn send your money to 13uRC2sXE1wMq7QT1bjxmPJZbRFH4Cqmbu
03:51:15 <HackEgo> Learned 'send': send your money to 13uRC2sXE1wMq7QT1bjxmPJZbRFH4Cqmbu
03:51:37 <hppavilion1> ZombieCheney: Always always ALWAYS check if there's something before you teach wisdom something
03:51:41 <tswett> Let's find out what 'send' is.
03:51:43 <HackEgo> send your money to 13uRC2sXE1wMq7QT1bjxmPJZbRFH4Cqmbu
03:51:48 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:51:50 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:52:10 <HackEgo> Fuck yeah, ZombieCheney is hardcore!
03:52:10 <ais523> at some point oerjan is going to have to come in at some point and fix this
03:52:40 <ais523> ZombieCheney: it's a learndb; most channels which have one use their learndb to readily store facts about certain topics for future reference
03:52:47 <HackEgo> mycology is a Befunge-98 (also -93 to some extent) testsuite that can be found at https://deewiant.iki.fi/projects/mycology/
03:52:51 <zzo38> ais523: Do you know what else is effect of new card?
03:52:54 <ais523> like that, that's one of the serious ones
03:52:58 <HackEgo> Fuck yeah, ZombieCheney is hardcore!
03:53:01 <tswett> `run echo 'the fuck? ¯\(°_o)/¯' > wisdom/fuck
03:53:06 <HackEgo> 42. That’s it. That’s The Answer. But you never really understood what The Ultimate Question was, did you? So The Answer doesn’t make sense without it. If you knew what the The Ultimate Question was, you might understand why The Answer is 42, and if that makes sense to you, you are one enlightened dude, dude. Do you wanna know The Ultima
03:53:09 <ais523> mostly we use it as a repository for bad jokes though
03:53:22 <ais523> zzo38: I know a few new cards, it's spoiler season so Wizards are releasing a few every day
03:53:28 <ZombieCheney> `learn 42 https://github.com/zackjk/The-Identity/blob/master/LICENSE
03:53:30 <HackEgo> Learned '42': 42 https://github.com/zackjk/The-Identity/blob/master/LICENSE
03:53:37 <tswett> ais523: so I'm reminded of a certain bit of wording on a card in a certain MTG-like game.
03:53:48 <ais523> tswett: I take it that the certain MTG-like game is not actually MTG?
03:53:56 <tswett> It was like this: "Discard a card. If you do, draw two cards."
03:54:14 <tswett> At first, it sounds weird. Why would you put an "if you do" on something that's mandatory?
03:55:02 <ais523> because if you don't, you don't get the two cards
03:55:30 <ais523> (the M:tG equivalent card exists, although I forget what it's called; it's worded "As an additional cost to cast CARDNAME, discard a card. Draw two cards.")
03:55:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mov]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43285&oldid=43265 * Ehird * (-37) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Keymaker|Keymaker]] ([[User talk:Keymaker|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:Cluid Zhasulelm|Cluid Zhasulelm]]
03:55:35 <ais523> (and costs 1R I think)
03:55:49 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTBlKRzNf74
03:55:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Mov]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43287&oldid=43285 * Ehird * (+37) misclick -- sorry
03:55:59 <tswett> ais523: technically that answers the question.
03:56:11 <pikhq> Oh huh, he does liv.
03:56:28 <pikhq> I guess he just rage-quit IRC or something.
03:56:47 <tswett> If there were an MTG sorcery that just said "Discard a card, then draw two cards", you'd be able to abuse it by casting it while not having any cards in hand.
03:57:18 <HackEgo> quoteformat/qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
03:57:19 <tswett> Of course, we all know that the best wording is the following:
03:57:46 <tswett> "Try: { Discard a card. Draw two cards. } Catch (unable to discard a card): { }"
03:57:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'discard': Discard a card, then draw two cards
03:58:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:58:12 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
03:58:16 <hppavilion1> Are you even listening to me, ZombieCheney?
03:58:23 <zzo38> ZombieCheney: You aren't supposed to make `learn command like that!
03:58:36 <zzo38> Please learn the proper way or not at all.
03:59:05 <HackEgo> Learned '<zzo38>': <zzo38> is not The One
03:59:21 <shachaf> Please stop messing up the wisdom database.
03:59:34 <hppavilion1> Check if there's already something in that spot before teaching it
03:59:45 <HackEgo> Learned 'wisdom': wisdom there is no wisdom
04:00:23 * hppavilion1 flys down and saves zzo38 with superpoweryness
04:00:23 * oren_ mapoles ZombieCheney with the bugswtter ーー蟲蟲
04:00:25 <tswett> Whelp, this can all be reverted later if need be. If we remember.
04:00:46 <tswett> `run echo 'ーー蟲蟲' > emoticons/swatter
04:00:52 <ZombieCheney> Good luck remembering, I can always come back.
04:01:01 <oren_> you do realize the <> arent part of the persons name?
04:01:44 <zzo38> Clearly I am not "The One", but actually "Aaron Black". But please stop mixing up the files like that OK????????
04:01:50 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ban: not found
04:02:02 <fowl> whats up #esoteric whats happening
04:02:03 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ban: not found
04:02:44 <hppavilion1> Wait, can muted people still read your messages??
04:02:50 <HackEgo> Learned 'zombiecheney': ZombieCheney is God
04:02:58 <ais523> hppavilion1: if you mean /ignore, that's client-side
04:03:03 <zzo38> hppavilion1: If you send them to the channel, then yes, of course
04:03:08 <ais523> Freenode is still sending you the ignored messages, your client just doesn't print them
04:03:34 <oren_> `learn ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
04:03:35 <HackEgo> Learned 'zombiecheney': ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
04:03:36 -!- ZombieCheney has left.
04:03:38 <ais523> hppavilion1: I thought trolling wasn't allowed on Freenode
04:03:39 <zzo38> Other form of "Discard a card. If you do, draw two cards." can have something like my idea [ :discard :any; :success [ :draw 2 ] ]
04:03:44 <hppavilion1> I'm going to go register the ZombieCheney username on Esolangs
04:03:55 <ais523> it's not allowed on Esolang either
04:04:06 -!- ZomieCheney has joined.
04:04:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * ZombieCheney * New user account
04:04:34 <ais523> hppavilion1: why would you register someone else's username?
04:04:42 <ais523> not that I can't fix it but it's a bunch of work I don't want to have to do
04:04:45 <zzo38> Don't register someone else username
04:05:03 <zzo38> God is.....there is no answer to this question.
04:05:33 <hppavilion1> I'll just give him the password after I change it
04:05:53 <ais523> ZomieCheney: /ban, but it won't work unless you have some sort of status within the channel
04:06:01 <zzo38> ZomieCheney: The MODE command is used to ban people from a channel, but you can't unless you are an operator
04:06:03 <ais523> hppavilion1: I can rename the account out of the way
04:06:14 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: lel: not found
04:06:16 <ais523> zzo38: OK, technically it's MODE, but almost all clients have /ban as a shortcut for it
04:06:32 -!- nys has quit (Quit: quit).
04:06:33 <HackEgo> lol stands for laughing out legends
04:06:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``````````````: not found
04:07:11 <ZomieCheney> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ``````````````: not found
04:07:25 <hppavilion1> ZombieCheney has been a bit of a dick from my POV
04:07:49 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0
04:07:51 <fowl> hppavilion1, its obvious you are new to being trolled
04:08:26 <ais523> anyway, I prefer it when this channel is about esolangs rather than trolling
04:08:33 <HackEgo> Learned 'zomiecheney': ZomieCheney is ZombieCheney
04:08:51 <ais523> it's not coincidence that channel regulars (including me) sometimes disappear for months at a time
04:09:09 <ZomieCheney> I'm brand new to this, just trying things out.
04:09:21 <shachaf> Only a few people troll here.
04:09:56 <zzo38> Then make up a new kind
04:09:59 <ais523> hmm, how would you make it cooler?
04:10:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'hppavilion1': hppavilion1 is ZombieCheney
04:10:18 <hppavilion1> It just wasn't in line with my expectations
04:10:30 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
04:10:57 <ais523> hppavilion1: we can reset it all later
04:11:03 <HackEgo> higgledy piggledy / hp pavilion / doesn't like jokes that are / written in text; // uncontroversially, / one in a million is / roughly the chance they won't / be left perplexed
04:11:04 <ais523> but oerjan's normally the person who does complex bot resets
04:11:23 <zzo38> Just program HackEgo to refuse to be commanded by *!*/gateway/web/* for a few days
04:11:57 <ais523> I was trying to think of an appropriate answer to that but I like zzo38's
04:11:58 <ZomieCheney> So they also have a bot that signs in with that name?
04:12:10 <ais523> no, myndzi is the human that's also a bot
04:12:29 <ZomieCheney> Complicated, how do you keep track of all of it?
04:12:34 <zzo38> More properly I actually mean *!*@gateway/web/*
04:12:37 <ais523> there's a human and bot running on the same account with myndzi
04:12:45 <ais523> the bot tends to talk more though
04:13:13 <ais523> zzo38: what if a web user wants to play BF Joust, or test out esolang golf, or the like?
04:13:34 <ais523> you know, HackEgo's original purpose before it ended up getting overrun by welcome variants and wisdom and quotes
04:13:37 <zzo38> Well, then they have to either wait until the ban is removed or get their own IRC client
04:13:40 <ais523> (actually, EgoBot does BF Joust, I think)
04:13:51 <ais523> zzo38: ais523_ plays BF Joust sometimes, and doesn't have an IRC client
04:13:56 <ais523> ZomieCheney: [[e:BF Joust]]
04:14:01 <ais523> http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
04:14:10 <ais523> one of the most amazing esothings ever
04:14:23 <ais523> I've probably spent weeks of my life playing it and enjoyed nearly all of it
04:15:00 <zzo38> But ais523_ doesn't have an address fitting that range; it is cloaked
04:15:07 <zzo38> And anyways the ban should only be temporary
04:15:15 <ais523> zzo38: oh good point, ais523_ is indeed cloaked
04:15:22 <zzo38> A few days is sufficient.
04:15:24 -!- MDude has changed nick to MDream.
04:15:35 <ais523> ais523__ isn't cloaked but I probably wouldn't try to play BF Joust from /there/
04:15:56 <zzo38> A suggested ban programmed into HackEgo temporarily
04:16:05 <ais523> hppavilion1: what OS are you on?
04:16:05 <zzo38> hppavilion1: I don't know; see what one you like.
04:16:30 <zzo38> I wrote my own IRC client because I don't like the other ones. You can also write your own if you want to.
04:16:44 <zzo38> hppavilion1: In the HackEgo
04:16:54 <zzo38> You can view all of the files from the webpage too though
04:17:01 <HackEgo> :-( \ 0 \ 113500 \ a.o \ a.out \ argv.py \ bdsmreclist \ bin \ blah \ blah \ blah \ canary \ cat \ Complaints \ :-D \ dc \ dog \ emoticons \ error.log \ etc \ factor \ faith \ fu \ head \ hello \ hello.c \ hi \ hours \ ibin \ index.html?dl=1812 \ interps \ le \ lib \ MaFV \ paste \ people.py \ pref \ prefs \ py.py \ quines \ quotes \ random_elli
04:17:02 <ais523> hppavilion1: ugh, I was hoping you wouldn't say Windows :-(
04:17:15 <ais523> the most popular IRC client for Windows is mIRC but everyone else hates mIRC users
04:17:32 <HackEgo> I 5053 pci_id: con ing! \ I 4681 ehci 0xf43d000:15: regista14: [0xbffff 0xfed nosabled 00-02] Zonseres: brips byted nored) \ W 3654 e8] PGTT ASF! 00f00000003.2: 0x000 - 0000: 00009dbfffec00000: Pround/f1743colled \ I 4076 verse.' \ I 4764 He trusts to you to set them free, \ I 858 your pocket?' he went on, turning to Alice. \ I 898 would be offende
04:17:42 <ais523> I think there are a couple of good lesser-known ones but don't know what they are
04:18:15 <zzo38> You can look at the program I wrote too to see if you prefer this one (although, most people don't)
04:18:51 <zzo38> I wrote a IRC client
04:19:05 <ais523> zzo38's IRC client is basically raw IRC with syntax highlighting and a shortcut to send PRIVMSG
04:19:11 <zzo38> I wrote it in PHP because I don't know how to make internet software in C
04:19:20 <ais523> I'd be surprised if zzo38 had a github account
04:19:22 <zzo38> No, it is not in GitHub, you have to download the .zip file
04:20:00 <ais523> I have one but only for work, my personal stuff is stored elsewhere (previously gitorious, now in a mix of places)
04:20:06 <ais523> (e.g. C-INTERCAL is on esr's server)
04:21:13 <ais523> why would I ban EgoBot?
04:21:58 <ais523> you just wrote "+b EgoBot" in the channel
04:22:04 <ais523> IRC doesn't use in-band commands (apart from CTCPs)
04:22:17 <ais523> sending to a channel is the PRIVMSG command internally, banning is MODE
04:22:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'zombiechenie': ZombieChenie is a noob
04:22:55 <zzo38> ZomieCheney: Well, then you must learn. You can find document in various document including the RFC document.
04:23:08 <ais523> so the full command to ban EgoBot would be "MODE #esoteric :+b EgoBot", which in most clients would be written as "/quote MODE #esoteric :+b EgoBot" (or "/ban EgoBot" for short)
04:23:16 <hppavilion1> YOU UST READ THE RFC TO BE EVEN A NOOB AT IRC
04:23:54 <zzo38> (Also see documentation for your client, if applicable)
04:25:23 <zzo38> Only if you are an operator
04:25:29 <oren_> not a rickroll https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71R2jE8W2Ag
04:25:38 <ZomieCheney> Who decides who is an operator? Other operators?
04:25:42 <zzo38> Only operators can ban people (including themself, I believe).
04:25:51 <ais523> ZomieCheney: there are a number of rules
04:26:06 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rules: not found
04:26:10 <ais523> one rule is that an operator can temporarily make anyone else into an operator, but this doesn't explain how things get started
04:26:23 <hppavilion1> They get started when the channel is created
04:26:38 <pikhq> Yes. When a channel is created the person who joined the channel first is the op.
04:26:41 <hppavilion1> The first person to join is Grand Admin God
04:26:45 <ais523> another rule is that if a channel is empty, then if a person joins it (becoming the only member), they're an operator until they relinquish it
04:26:53 <ais523> but there are zero operators here right now
04:27:00 <zzo38> If you JOIN a channel that is not registered and has nobody in it, then the channel is created and you are operator for that channel.
04:27:02 <fowl> Channels are registered
04:27:08 <ais523> so what happens is that there's a second list for people who can become operators at will
04:27:18 <ZomieCheney> So, will anyone be an operator here again?
04:27:23 <ais523> with a separate set of access permissions (which can originally be set by the person who registers the channel)
04:27:24 <fowl> What is this free irc lessons
04:27:27 <zzo38> (You can make yourself not a operator too, if you wish, but then it is reset when everyone leaves the channel)
04:27:33 <fowl> Somebody throw a pie
04:27:39 <zzo38> I don't have a pie
04:27:41 <ais523> ZomieCheney: well, if there were no operators here, then nobody could stop trolling, and that'd be a shame
04:27:43 <ais523> so I'd better correct it
04:27:45 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o ais523.
04:27:45 <pikhq> ZomieCheney: Yes, the server's got a list of people it will make an op when asked.
04:27:48 <ais523> see, there's an operator her enow
04:27:52 -!- ais523 has set channel mode: -o ais523.
04:28:11 <pikhq> Ooops, no more op.
04:28:37 <ais523> Freenode convention is that you hide your op status
04:28:42 <pikhq> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ A highly relevant URL.
04:28:51 <ais523> unless you're actively trying to speak "as an op" to tell people to behave themselves, or need to do an op action
04:30:33 <zzo38> I don't like to watch videos on computer, and I generally prefer the text. (I also don't like pornography, whether video or still, whether computer or TV.)
04:30:44 -!- ZomieCheney has quit (Quit: Page closed).
04:32:01 <zzo38> Not interested much
04:32:19 <ais523> ugh, I hate telling people to be more ontopic, mostly because it doesn't work
04:32:46 <ais523> pikhq: bad attempts at trolling
04:32:51 <ais523> that have been going on in this channel for a while now
04:32:58 <zzo38> OK, if you have something to make, fine
04:33:20 <zzo38> OK, that's fine too
04:35:57 <hppavilion1> If I keep this tab open I'll never get anything done
04:36:06 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Quit: Page closed).
04:36:15 <zzo38> Possibly not a very good program though, and anyways is there any image-based esolang for movies, or only still pictures?
04:36:30 -!- adu has joined.
04:36:30 -!- adu has quit (Client Quit).
04:36:46 <ais523> I don't actually think we have a video-based esolang yet
04:36:46 <zzo38> Or even add more dimensions and make it six-dimensional, to make it even more confusing.
04:36:54 <ais523> actually, given the existence of compression artifacts
04:37:05 <ais523> it could make for quite an interesting programming challenge if we had a max bitrate
04:37:20 <zzo38> ais523: Then make some. Yes, I like that idea too
04:37:21 <ais523> zzo38: past a certain point, extra dimensions don't really add confusion
04:37:35 <zzo38> Yes, I know, I am just saying anyways.
04:43:11 <fowl> Do yous alls know about games similar to the creatures franchise
04:44:06 -!- ZombieAlive has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
04:44:12 <zzo38> I don't know about it much
04:44:23 <pikhq> Sgeo knows a lot about it.
05:08:23 <coppro> ais523: getting to reading about OCP
05:08:33 <coppro> in a function call, what is "the" object?
05:10:59 <coppro> object cooriented programming
05:11:20 <ais523> so there's no direct function calls in TCTOE
05:11:33 <ais523> what you do instead is, you set a property (technically, a set key) on something
05:11:41 <ais523> then a trigger that triggers on that starts running as a result
05:12:14 <ais523> the thing that you set the property on is your "[this]" object, which might be an existing object, or might be something that you created for the purpose of triggering the trigger and otherwise meaningless
05:13:37 <shachaf> `` rm wisdom/{revery,that,42.,send,42,discard,<zzo38>,ZombieCheney,ZomieCheney,ZombieChenie}
05:13:40 <HackEgo> bash: zzo38: No such file or directory
05:13:56 <ais523> and normally you're scope-setting it ("scope methodname { [object].methodname := +; }", or "[object].methodname!" for short)
05:13:59 <shachaf> `` rm wisdom/{revery,that,42.,send,42,discard,'<zzo38>',ZombieCheney,ZomieCheney,ZombieChenie}
05:14:02 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/ZombieCheney': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/ZomieCheney': No such file or directory \ rm: cannot remove `wisdom/ZombieChenie': No such file or directory
05:14:34 <fowl> Nooooooo you erase him from history
05:16:01 <shachaf> `` rm wisdom/{fuck,'<ZombieCheney>'}
05:16:03 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `wisdom/<ZombieCheney>': No such file or directory
05:16:07 <shachaf> wow, this was a lot of vandalism
05:17:38 <shachaf> Is there an easy way to revert individual files?
05:19:54 <shachaf> `` for w in wisdom i hppavilion1; do hg cat -r 5714 wisdom/"$w" > wisdom/"$w"; done
05:21:14 <shachaf> I guess one was already reverted.
05:25:01 -!- Wright_ has joined.
05:25:01 -!- Wright has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
05:55:24 -!- gniourf has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
06:01:12 -!- Wright_ has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
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07:15:12 <augur_> any good esolangs lately?
07:15:22 <augur_> anything novel or weird
07:16:24 <ais523> augur_: there's an unfinished one I'm working on which is pretty weird
07:16:32 <augur_> ais523: tell me more :)
07:16:33 <ais523> I posted the notes for it earlier
07:17:17 <ais523> <ais523> bearing in mind unfinished, everything is subject to change, etc.: http://sprunge.us/VjPi
07:19:50 <augur_> its weird seeing people's names written in non-ascii chars
07:19:58 <augur_> like oerjans getting written as ørjan
07:20:13 <augur_> didnt even recognize it at first
07:20:15 <augur_> http://esoteric.codes/
07:21:46 <augur_> ais523: no longer reading. this seems like an actually interesting paradigm, so ill have to look in depth tomorrow
07:22:04 <ais523> I put so much effort into getting my esolangs right
07:22:13 <ais523> that by the time they're finished, they've been vaporware for years
07:22:40 <ais523> (either that or they end up like Snowflake, where people conclude that they're interesting but nobody but me can follow what's going on and nobody wants to put in the effort to impl them)
08:04:30 <quintopia> ais523: i approve. i think it looks nice. if you can write the compiler, i would attempt to use it. (i can't see how one would go about adding IO extensions...my guess is that would depend on compiler implementation as well?)
08:05:06 <quintopia> also...not immediately obvious how arithmetic would work. would need a better mental grasp of the thing first.
08:06:15 <ais523> I have Plans for arithmetic (as a library) but haven't checked that they work yet
08:06:47 <ais523> mostly involving searching for existing numbers so that only one of each integer exists, then you take references to it
08:06:57 <ais523> (meaning that integers can meaningfully be compared on)
08:08:24 <Jafet> Just make integers mutable
08:09:52 <ais523> Jafet: well, they will be as a side-effect of the implementation, but mutating them wouldn't really have the results you might or might not want
08:09:59 <ais523> because it'd only affect existing uses of the integer
08:10:10 <ais523> a new integer would be created fresh if you produced it via calculation result
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08:51:49 <Jafet> This language sounds like it can be modelled with a bunch of broadcast channels
08:52:14 <Jafet> (also concurrently providing a concurrent generalisation)
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09:15:45 <b_jonas> "(either that or they end up like Snowflake, where people conclude that they're interesting but [...] nobody wants to put in the effort to impl them)" -- or more like My Unreliable Past which is interesting as a theoretical model but not really worth to implement or program in
09:16:09 <ais523> My Unreliable Past is esolangs-as-art, rather than esolangs-as-programming
09:17:15 <b_jonas> I think part of my esolang enthusiasm got drowned when Wikiplia, a somewhat nice esolang that was practically usable with some inconveniences, died because tom7 brought down the only known copy of the implementation.
09:17:40 <b_jonas> Someone should try to make something like that.
09:18:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MattTheGeek * New user account
09:19:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43288&oldid=43004 * MattTheGeek * (+0) Corrected "am" to "an"
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09:21:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wikiplia]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43289&oldid=20358 * B jonas * (+292)
09:22:40 <ais523> that new account is really heartwarming to me
09:22:49 <ais523> someone who saw a typo, and decided to make an account just to fix it
09:45:05 <b_jonas> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edwin_Hubble#The_universe_goes_beyond_the_Milky_Way_galaxy says Edwin Hubble could identify single cepheid variable stars outside the Milky Way with a telescope in 1919
09:45:28 <b_jonas> isn't that like impossible because even the nearest galaxy is too far for that?
09:45:40 <b_jonas> they didn't have that kind of technology back then
09:46:17 <ais523> b_jonas: might be a different definition of "milky way"
09:46:35 <ais523> it can also refer to the part of the sky that's inside the plane of our galaxy
09:46:47 <b_jonas> ais523: no, definitely refers to other galaxies
09:46:49 <ais523> if you look out of the plane of the galaxy, you can still see some stars which are part of the galaxy itself
09:46:55 <ais523> because it isn't infinitely thin
09:47:16 <ais523> (the plane of the galaxy is visible as one continuous object, and has the name "milky way" from its appearance)
09:47:21 <b_jonas> I might have been imprecise, but it's definitely about other galaxies
10:02:02 <Deewiant> b_jonas: Wikiplia seems to still exist, just renamed to PyPedia http://www.pypedia.com/index.php/Main_Page
10:03:07 <Deewiant> (Unless WikiPL is actually a different thing, the history of the esolangs article is confusing)
10:04:33 <Deewiant> Yeah apparently it is a different thing, reading the diffs clarified.
10:04:42 <Deewiant> b_jonas: Disregard, it's not the same after all
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10:27:20 <Jafet> "Classical Cepheids are Population I variable stars which are 4–20 times more massive than the Sun, and up to 100,000 times more luminous."
10:27:28 <Jafet> I assume those are easier to spot with a telescope
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10:36:56 <oerjan> a tip, people, if you want me to #¤%¤"& clean up stuff, is _not_ to do other things afterwards. because the only thing that's actually easy is to revert the entire database to a specific revision. hth.
10:37:16 <oerjan> now to choose which revision...
10:38:05 <oerjan> also, it would also help if you stopped using `revert *without* a revision number for major cleanup. it is far too hard to follow.
10:38:48 <ais523> oerjan: actually the reason I called you in was that people had made so many incorrect cleanup attempts that I realised it was all too hard for me to follow
10:39:00 <oerjan> oh wait there's that idiotic `revert bug which means it's not easy at all to undelete file creations...
10:39:27 <oerjan> ais523: please, if people do that, kick them a bit twh
10:40:02 <ais523> I was loudly hinting that perhaps people should be behaving more sensibly
10:40:06 <oerjan> hm i guess maybe shachaf _did_ a fairly good job at the end.
10:40:06 <ais523> but I'm too timid to use op powers
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10:40:50 * oerjan whistles worriedly if he went too far
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10:42:45 <oerjan> also, i haven't read it all but i recall zzo38 suggesting making HackEgo ignore the guy. afaik that's not actually possible for anyone other than fizzie and Gregor/Guest62171 to do, and we've been waiting for any of them to de-idle for a week...
10:43:06 <oerjan> (i think there already is an ignore list and one person is on it)
10:44:15 <oerjan> yep, pretty much exactly a week
10:44:49 <oerjan> (Guest62171's 4 days doesn't count because that was a pingout)
10:47:29 <boily> hellørjan. I'm beginning to strongly suspect that fizzie's on vacation.
10:47:33 <lambdabot> tswett said 7h 36m 32s ago: implement Al Dente twbh hth
10:48:05 <oerjan> helloily. we are doomed. DOOMED.
10:48:55 <boily> the fungot has left, ais523's been whistledly kicked, Guest62171 is completely inert and I haven't had breakfast yet.
10:53:17 * oerjan munches some mackerel in tomato sauce
10:54:00 <boily> mrhelloman_. today it's toasts with baba ghanoush. (gannouj?)
10:59:54 <oerjan> boily: i'm pretty sure "that would be helpful"
11:00:34 <oerjan> Guest62171 is pretty much inert by default, though.
11:11:51 <HackEgo> HTMarriageL I now pronounce you Markup Language and StyleSheet Language
11:12:22 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/htmarriagel
11:12:39 <oerjan> that just doesn't fit the format
11:13:07 <oerjan> and fixing it would lose the caps
11:15:39 <int-e> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
11:15:39 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
11:15:40 <myndzi> >\ c.c /| /^\| | /| c.c /`\ | /| | |\ c.c /|
11:16:37 -!- oerjan has set topic: oren_ found the last bug. oh wait... | fungot withdrawal is getting severe - we may not survive this. | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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12:24:21 <oerjan> @tell shachaf <shachaf> oerjan: i thought the internationale united the human race <-- and it would have worked, if not for those pesky Americans hth
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14:02:45 <HackEgo> fuck: no such file in rev 5eb460d80a68
14:02:53 <HackEgo> wisdom/fuck: no such file in rev 5eb460d80a68
14:03:23 <HackEgo> 175) <ais523> I love the way zzo38's comment was cut off after the f of brainfuck <ais523> that's just the most hilarious place to cut it off in a discussion about censorshi \ 220) <oerjan> <Gregor> oerjan: Tell us what (a(b{c}d)*2e)%2 expands to <-- ababcdbcdedbabcdbcdede, i think <Gregor> oerjan: What - the - fuck \ 238) <oklopol> okay see in m
14:07:27 <oerjan> shachaf: hm on reading the logs, it seems like most of the attempts to `revert file creations worked.
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14:13:50 <oerjan> @tell shachaf Good cleaning up job tdh
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15:16:13 <b_jonas> do you know how DOS (and windows cmd inheriting from it) has some built-in aliases: MD = MKDIR; CD = CHDIR; DEL = ERASE right?
15:16:25 <b_jonas> well let's make a variant shell where REMOVE and REM are also aliases of DEL
15:17:54 <b_jonas> DEL already takes any number of filenames, and it will just ignore nonexistant files
15:18:14 <shachaf> oerjan: well, some of the reverts didn't work
15:18:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 2h 54m 27s ago: <shachaf> oerjan: i thought the internationale united the human race <-- and it would have worked, if not for those pesky Americans hth
15:18:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1h 4m 58s ago: Good cleaning up job tdh
15:22:22 <Taneb> b_jonas, isn't REM normally a comment?
15:22:48 <mroman_> DEL /A /S /R probably even
15:24:34 <mroman_> /f for read-only files, /s for recursive and /q for no-fucking-prompt
15:25:03 <b_jonas> when I invoke ImageMagick as identify --vers why does it think "--vers" is a filename for a non-existant file rather than a non-existant switch?
15:25:39 <b_jonas> it doesn't do that for single-hyphen options (ImageMagick normally uses only long options with single hyphen)
15:27:30 <shachaf> oerjan: oh, you're not even here
15:51:05 <oren_> wai wai wait-- the imagemagick programs are just the same program inoked under a different name?
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16:03:12 <b_jonas> oren_: no, they're approximately seven different programs
16:04:02 <b_jonas> oren_: they're not links or anything, they're different small executables containing a main function and a link to a shared library basically
16:04:44 <b_jonas> bash doesn't like it if you type shopt -s extglob; and use extglobs right in the same line. the exglobs are parsed only starting from the next line.
16:13:23 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: yarr part karma arr
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17:12:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cod]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43290 * Phase * (+687) Create cod page
17:13:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cod]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43291&oldid=43290 * Phase * (+4) Fix links in cod
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17:45:55 <hppavilion1> It's funny how on an IRC like this, saying you're writing a programming language is no big deal
17:48:23 <hppavilion1> What may be interesting is that I'm writing a python program for a new data structure I need
17:48:26 <fowl> I was thinking about a programming language with required typing where you have to annotate the type of each expression before the expression itself, and this wouldnt help overloading or anything its just required because the compiler is pedantic
17:48:41 <hppavilion1> To be the output of a lexer for a new programming language I'm writing
17:49:22 <fowl> 1 would look like [int]1, 1+1 would be [int][(int, int) -> int][int]1 + [int]1
17:50:28 <fowl> The goal is quadruple the amount of code you have to write and make refactoring impossible
17:50:37 <fowl> (Creating job security)
17:50:51 <hppavilion1> I imagine that in the future, it will be the manager's programming language of choice :P
17:51:18 <hppavilion1> What if you had to annotate the type expected as output from an operator?
17:51:49 <fowl> And it may require a [void] if that int isnt used
17:52:12 <hppavilion1> I'm making a language that's actually useful for somethign
17:52:26 <fowl> Me too (i hope)
17:52:44 <fowl> Working on a smalltalk without inheritance
17:53:10 <hppavilion1> Mine is Declarative and based on that new data structure I had to implement
17:53:34 <fowl> What data structure
17:58:15 <hppavilion1> So you can reference a value by a key or a key by an integer
17:58:20 <hppavilion1> Only downside is that values can't be keys
17:58:21 <hppavilion1> Which could be a problem, now that I think about it
17:58:36 <hppavilion1> I meant values can't be numbers, as numbers are used for indices
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18:07:13 <shachaf> 2012-03-23 22:23:10 +0200 Taneb I've got a brilliant esolang
18:07:19 <shachaf> 2012-03-23 22:23:14 +0200 Taneb I just need a name
18:07:29 <shachaf> 2012-03-23 22:24:41 +0200 ion taneb: Real Fast Nora’s Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster Download
18:07:35 <shachaf> 2012-03-23 22:25:10 +0200 Taneb I'm actually going to use that name
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18:39:53 <HackEgo> mips/MIPS Is Popular in Schools.
18:39:56 <HackEgo> wise/Uninstalling software installed by the Wise Installation Wizard is unwise. It's neither clockwise nor counterclockwise nor otherwise.
18:39:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: oh! that's how he's got that name? I never knew
18:40:28 <HackEgo> code/[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
18:40:36 <shachaf> b_jonas: Well, a spam bot created that wiki page.
18:40:59 <shachaf> But deciding to use it was a good decision on everyone's part.
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18:53:45 <int-e> `culprits wisdom/code
18:53:50 <b_jonas> shachaf: wait, a spam bot that creates pages with actual good names?
18:53:56 <b_jonas> I hope you didn't ban it fast
18:56:26 <shachaf> There's a movie called Nora's Hair Salon 3: Shear Disaster
18:56:38 <shachaf> Presumably the spam bot was advertising a real fast download of that movie.
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19:58:36 <HackEgo> cow/A cow is an animal best served at minus zero degrees.
19:58:40 <HackEgo> metaturing/This wisdom entry was crushed by a falling anvil.
19:59:58 <HackEgo> croissont supplier/See misspellings of croissant
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20:04:11 <Melvar> `? misspellings of croissant
20:04:12 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:04:25 <Melvar> `? misspellings of croissant
20:04:25 <HackEgo> misspellings of crosant? ¯\(°_o)/¯
20:04:36 <HackEgo> phantom____________________hoover/<span accent="British">Your soundcard works perfectly.</span>
20:04:55 <HackEgo> willkommen/Willkommen beim internationalen Zentrum für das Design und die Implementierung esoterischer Programmiersprachen! Für weitere Informationen besuchen Sie das Wiki: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page. (Für andere Arten der Esoterik gibt es #esoteric auf EFnet oder DALnet.)
20:04:59 <HackEgo> turkey/Turkey was the center of an empire that gobbled up much of Eastern Europe and the Middle East, something which brought them into conflict with Ostrich. In the 19th century the overstuffed empire started declining, and after the Great War it was cut up like so much Shish Kebab.
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20:16:55 <tswett> Someone should really come up with the next SQL.
20:17:12 <tswett> "Haskell, except a database query language instead of a programming language".
20:17:48 <zzo38> SQL is a real programming language. But it is a database query language
20:18:38 <HackEgo> Monoids are just categories with a single object.
20:18:48 <HackEgo> Monoids are the easy version of categories.
20:19:01 <tswett> I love wisdom/monoids.
20:19:22 <zzo38> I think SQL is mostly fine as it is, although there are a few things missing that should have
20:22:28 <zzo38> Such as: CREATE FUNCTION name(args) AS expression; CREATE FUNCTION name(args) ACCUMULATING(vars) AS expression; CREATE FUNCTION name(args) ACCUMULATING INTO table AS expression; TRY ... CATCH ... END; FOREVER statement; and trigger-index support (where there is an index of triggers attached to a view)
20:23:29 <gamemanj> But what about CREATE BFFUNCTION?
20:27:02 <HackEgo> boxmodel/boxmodel is how we figure out how big Taneb's cage is going to be.
20:28:12 <zzo38> When I was play Dungeons&Dragons game, getting past the dragon wasn't too difficult, as they didn't intend to fight me but only to ask us some riddles.
20:32:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: which Dungeons&Dragons game? as in, what console and approximate year of release/
20:33:22 <zzo38> No console, it is played by paper
20:33:38 <b_jonas> oh, you mean actual Dungeons&Dragons
20:34:05 <b_jonas> I didn't think it was that because you mentioned "the dragon"
20:34:15 <HackEgo> http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.tex (the precompiled .dvi is also available)
20:34:54 <b_jonas> right, it's just that "the dragon" about D&D in general doesn't have much context, if it's about a particular game it can
20:37:19 <zzo38> But now I found a large city where only human is allowed, no dwarf, elf (including drow), troll, otyugh, beholder, etc is allowed. A wizard made up our entire aprty invisible except two soldier. I try to think of what to do next, since this invisibility spell can expire, doesn't work in anti-magic field, and doesn't work if you attack either.
20:37:38 <b_jonas> I wonder, would it make sense to add a dwim switch to ls (the unix utility) that changes behavior depending on whether the filenames given in command line end with a slash or not: if there's no trailing slash, the files are listed as with the -d switch, but if there's a trailing slash their contents are listed as without -d.
20:38:17 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes it might, actually
20:38:44 <shachaf> zzo38: Is a precompiled .pdf available?
20:38:52 <zzo38> shachaf: No, only DVI and source
20:38:57 <shachaf> .pdf is more convenient for me than .dvi because my browser can open it directly.
20:39:01 <b_jonas> this works especially in bash where the default (but changeable) is to put a trailing slash when you tab-expand a directory
20:39:04 <zzo38> (Make a PDF yourself if you want one)
20:39:08 <b_jonas> shachaf: should I make a pdf?
20:39:19 <shachaf> b_jonas: Sure, if it's up to date.
20:39:37 <shachaf> zzo38: It would be more convenient if you generated one.
20:39:43 <b_jonas> shachaf: I'd download the tex source now and pdftex it
20:39:49 <Melvar> b_jonas: So you can then alias ls='ls --dwim' ?
20:39:59 <b_jonas> (or pdflatex or whatever it wants)
20:40:11 <zzo38> But also shell should be change so that if you have wildcard that matches file with - at the front then it also adds the path (such as ./ if it is)
20:40:22 <b_jonas> Melvar: dunno, I'd look at what all the existing options are called before I decide on a name
20:40:36 <zzo38> I don't like long options much though
20:40:54 <shachaf> zzo38: You can generated a PDF file with pdfTeX
20:41:05 <b_jonas> I think there was a kludge for that in old versions, but no, I wouldn't like to change wildcards to always do that
20:41:21 <b_jonas> I rather just add a double hyphen or ./ manually when needed
20:42:38 <zzo38> I think you are correct; better can be to set an environment variable where the filename starts, maybe
20:42:40 <b_jonas> zzo38: the ./ prefix can sometimes be inconvenient (or break things) because many programs use the filename in ways other than opening it
20:42:51 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, setting an environment variable was the old kludge
20:43:53 <zzo38> shachaf: I don't have pdfTeX, and I do not guarantee it works in anything other than the One True TeX. (You can still use an external DVI->PDF converter if pdfTeX doesn't work, but I don't have that)
20:44:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: pdftex almost always works if One True TeX works. and in my experience, it works better than converting dvi to pdf or converting postscript to pdf, but this isn't absolute.
20:45:10 <b_jonas> I use pdftex (or pdflatex mostly) a lot
20:46:17 <zzo38> If it does work, you are free to do so. If not, well, you are at least free to try.
20:46:52 <b_jonas> shachaf: which level of detail do you want? max?
20:47:29 <shachaf> I'm not sure that I'd read it.
20:47:34 <shachaf> But a PDF would certainly be convenient.
20:48:14 <zzo38> The DVI is compiled at detail level 5, although you can specify a lower one if you don't want that. Detail level 6 is probably too much unless you want to analyze the character progressions in much detail.
20:48:42 <b_jonas> shachaf: try http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/zzo38-dnd-level20.pdf.gz
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20:49:09 <b_jonas> shachaf: well it's slightly smaller that way
20:49:19 <b_jonas> and you probably have a gzip decompressor
20:49:46 <b_jonas> pdftex doesn't generate a very compressed pdf alone
20:49:49 <shachaf> Yes, but my browser will show a PDF file in a tab directly if it's sent as application/pdf.
20:50:13 <b_jonas> shachaf: doesn't it show a gzip-compressed one? some pdf/ps viewers do that automatically
20:50:33 <shachaf> I won't be reading this right now anyway.
20:50:48 <b_jonas> well, probably I'm not sending application/pdf as the header for it
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21:06:39 <HackEgo> phở/Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
21:06:44 <HackEgo> nooooodle/Noooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
21:08:45 <pikhq> shachaf: What *should* be happening (of course) is it should be applicaton/pdf with Content-encoding: gzip.
21:08:53 <pikhq> Or for extra fun, Transfer-encoding: gzip.
21:09:02 <shachaf> But I don't really care about the encoding.
21:09:58 -!- mihow has quit (Ping timeout: 248 seconds).
21:10:53 <lambdabot> KOAK 252053Z 30012KT 10SM CLR 25/13 A2989 RMK AO2 SLP123 T02500128 58008
21:10:55 <lambdabot> KSJC 252053Z 31007KT 10SM CLR 29/13 A2987 RMK AO2 SLP115 T02940133 58010
21:11:11 <lambdabot> ENVA 252050Z 24010KT 9999 -RA FEW012 BKN025 09/07 Q1015 RMK WIND 670FT 26013KT
21:12:23 <pikhq> oerjan: "Mountain View".
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21:14:47 <oerjan> i'm sure elliott would have taken care of the zombie troll at a decent speed.
21:15:21 <shachaf> oerjan: i see what you're getting at
21:16:28 <HackEgo> lie/Lies are even easier than monoids. They form groups, known as Lie groups.
21:16:57 <oerjan> also, he'd probably have identified it as either hagb4rd or cheater.
21:17:40 <shachaf> ok maybe i don't see what you're getting at
21:18:04 <HackEgo> å/å is the same letter as Å, unless you're HackEgo and don't understand things on top of letters.
21:18:10 <HackEgo> sparse matrix algorithm/Sparse matrix algorithms are a trivial special case of non-sparse matrix algorithms, by conjugating with the sparsification operation.
21:18:24 <oerjan> it is difficult to oracle this
21:18:25 <HackEgo> fact/facts are lies. They are not there. Go away!
21:18:38 <HackEgo> bigchar/bigchar ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
21:19:11 <zzo38> That isn't the filename
21:19:16 <oerjan> `culprits wisdom/bigcharà
21:19:35 <zzo38> The actual filename is "wisdom/bigchar" followed by an invalid UTF-8 sequence probably
21:20:03 <oerjan> `` culprits wisdom/bigchar*
21:20:05 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull guestbot guestbot
21:20:08 <shachaf> `` culprits wisdom/bigchar*
21:20:10 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull guestbot guestbot
21:20:26 <oerjan> `` url wisdom/bigchar*
21:20:27 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/bigchar%E0
21:20:57 <shachaf> `` hg log culprits/bigchar* | greps summary:
21:20:59 <HackEgo> bash: greps: command not found
21:21:03 <shachaf> `` hg log culprits/bigchar* | grep summary:
21:21:20 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/bigchar* | grep summary:
21:21:21 <HackEgo> summary: <oerjan> revert \ summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <guestbot> learn bigchar \xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\x
21:21:46 <oerjan> i won't mind if you delete it
21:21:56 <shachaf> but you won't do it yourself, huh?
21:22:31 <HackEgo> article/An article is something that `learn can understand.
21:22:34 <HackEgo> gotton/gotton is a quantum of attention. Solain drives the packet.
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21:25:30 <HackEgo> tar/The command you're looking for is probably either tar -xavkf or tar -cavf
21:25:55 <shachaf> oren_: i've never looked for either of those commands tdnh
21:26:59 <HackEgo> nitia/nitia is the inventor of all things. The BBC invented her.
21:27:49 <oerjan> shachaf: i think those are oren_'s recommendations
21:28:14 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/stephen wolfram \ -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 83 Apr 15 07:52 wisdom/wolfram
21:28:22 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
21:28:23 <HackEgo> Stephen Wolfram is an esolanger with too much money and power. Taneb invented him.
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21:28:53 <oerjan> i think so, previous experiments show `revert can undo symbolic links
21:29:08 -!- MDude has joined.
21:29:22 <shachaf> `` rm wisdom/wolfram; ln -s stephen\ wolfram wisdom/wolfram
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21:34:31 <oerjan> * fowl is god, AMA <-- wtf is WRONG with you twh
21:34:47 <zzo38> What does "AMA" mean?
21:35:02 <fowl> I dont remember saying that
21:35:11 <oerjan> zzo38: "ask me anything"
21:35:14 <fowl> I may have typed it instead
21:35:27 <fowl> But fr i dont remember typing that
21:35:45 <oerjan> fowl: http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-06-25#040516
21:36:52 <fowl> Probably some hacker wannabe fowl said that
21:37:21 * oerjan skeptical, also wondering if fowl misinterpreted him
21:37:37 <HackEgo> phantom____________________hoover/<span accent="British">Your soundcard works perfectly.</span>
21:38:15 <shachaf> oerjan: well you said pretty much the same thing one time when you banned me from this channel
21:38:32 <oerjan> fowl: that wasn't reprimanding you, that was taking you at face value hth
21:38:46 <oerjan> shachaf: hm rings a bell. you probably deserved it hth
21:38:54 <fowl> I dont know what twh means
21:38:59 <shachaf> oerjan: it had to do with roald dahl hth
21:39:02 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: : not found
21:39:11 <HackEgo> twh would help, but is an hth derivative. hth. twh. hand.
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21:42:18 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
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21:46:48 * oerjan suddenly wonders if the (english) bible contains any other programming language names
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21:47:37 <HackEgo> ham/Ham is a kind of meat. It is popular in Hexham, among other places.
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21:49:43 <shachaf> oerjan: presumably a lot of languages whose names are taken from common english words
21:51:03 <shachaf> go, forth, scheme, visual basic .net, ruby, inform
21:51:38 -!- Herbalist has joined.
21:52:20 <oerjan> `learn A herbalist is a list of herbas.
21:52:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'herbalist': A herbalist is a list of herbas.
22:02:01 <HackEgo> rhubarb/Rhubarb rhubarb rhubarb, rhubarb: rhubarb rhubarb? Rhubarb, rhubarb, rhubarb rhubarb.
22:03:18 -!- nycs has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:03:55 <HackEgo> mroman/mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
22:04:09 <HackEgo> thyme/Thyme itself is only an abstract approximation of oregano.
22:05:41 <vanila> |o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o||o|
22:07:01 <oren_> aww no handstanding stick figures?
22:07:21 <vanila> \o/ \o/ HAYY BIRTHDAY \o/ \o/
22:10:52 <vanila> whats up any new esolang stuff
22:14:02 <HackEgo> ZombieCheney lives under a bridge.
22:14:20 <oren_> https://esolangs.org/wiki/Mov
22:14:39 <oren_> that was me, implying that ZC is a troll
22:14:52 <vanila> there's a thing about branchless programming in assembly
22:15:02 <vanila> its meant to be faster
22:15:05 <oerjan> oren_: yes, i'm just getting to the point of the logs where shachaf tried to delete that but failed
22:15:09 <vanila> so there's some cool tricks in it
22:15:15 <vanila> and there's also cryptography
22:15:20 <vanila> where you sometimes want branchless code
22:15:47 <oerjan> he kept forgetting about case, and then his revert trick only reverted files that existed previously
22:16:08 <shachaf> so that's why everything was messed up
22:16:13 <oerjan> or wait, you listed them explicitly.
22:16:44 <zzo38> Even in 6502 codes though you can use fall-through in the cases where you want to improve the speed, and therefore avoid branches in a few case like that too. However, in 6502 there isn't pipelining and branches aren't too slow anyways, but they still take up time like any other instruction does.
22:16:59 <HackEgo> wisdom/zombiecheney \ wisdom/zombiechenie \ wisdom/zomgmodules \ wisdom/zomiecheney
22:17:03 <shachaf> oerjan: look i was in the middle of other things at the time
22:17:20 <vanila> i didn't know much about 6502
22:17:33 <zzo38> Well, I do know 6502
22:18:00 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/zombiechenie
22:18:11 <HackEgo> ZomieCheney is ZombieCheney
22:18:20 <oerjan> `rm wisdom/zomiecheney
22:18:24 <zzo38> Learn 6502 programming
22:18:28 <oerjan> i think i'll leave one.
22:18:49 <shachaf> oerjan: thanks for cleaning it up tdh
22:18:53 <oren_> `learn A tautology is a tautology.
22:18:55 <HackEgo> Learned 'tautology': A tautology is a tautology.
22:19:16 <zzo38> Do you think there is any mistake in this program? http://sprunge.us/BQJV
22:19:24 <oren_> `learn A tautology is a tautology. Oren invented them.
22:19:26 <HackEgo> Learned 'tautology': A tautology is a tautology. Oren invented them.
22:19:52 <vanila> it's too hard to tell if there's an error just by looking
22:19:58 <shachaf> oren_: better with the nick orin
22:20:04 <shachaf> because then you can call them orinventions
22:21:40 <oren_> see I can lagh in russian
22:21:41 <fowl> Oren is the snake pendant from the neverending story
22:21:52 <fowl> Is that intended
22:22:11 -!- supay has quit (Ping timeout: 276 seconds).
22:22:16 <oren_> Oren is my real name, pronounced as if spelled orin
22:22:45 -!- supay has joined.
22:22:50 <fowl> http://www.neverendingstory.com/images/auryn2.jpg
22:23:04 <fowl> I spelt it wrong my bad
22:28:08 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/APLBAONWSJAS LOL
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23:07:49 <oren_> my dad is reading a book by "emile zola" apparently not the zola I was thinking of
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23:14:21 <oren_> space jam remix by P*Light https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdjlBRs4zyU
23:18:12 <oerjan> which zola were you thinking of
23:18:20 <oerjan> emile is pretty famous
23:21:06 <oren_> I was thinking of zola from GG
23:21:44 <oerjan> which reminds me of a theory i keep wanting to tell int-e but he's always idle when i remember it
23:22:10 <oren_> cant you @tell him the theory
23:22:41 <oren_> @tell oerjan can't you @tell int-e the theory?
23:23:30 <oerjan> @tell int-e Obvious explanation for Gil's recent comments about the Other: it's actually Zola
23:26:20 <oren_> what are business cards for?
23:26:39 <oerjan> an interesting question
23:27:27 <oerjan> exchange greeting ritual
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23:28:33 <oerjan> since i've never done business, i don't really know.
23:35:32 <vanila> getting given a business card is good.
23:38:49 <oren_> vanila: really? As a person who in a week is going to be expected to carry business cards, who should I give them to, when?
23:40:21 <vanila> https://esolangs.org/wiki/ASCII_art- isn't that just brainfuck?
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00:47:53 <vanila> You aren't totally sure if "EQUIP" is a verb copasetic with the abstract behavioral medium in which you dwell, but you give it a try anyway.
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01:23:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Kirbyfan64sos * New user account
01:33:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unc]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43292 * Kirbyfan64sos * (+761) Created page with "'''unc''' is an estoric version of C with various keywords and characters swapped around to make programs difficult to write and read. For instance, this is a [[Hello, world!]..."
01:34:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43293&oldid=43243 * Kirbyfan64sos * (+10) /* U */
01:49:10 <tswett> oren_: business cards tell people what you do and how to contact you.
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02:41:20 <HackEgo> webcarting/webcarting is not dissimilar to Mario Kart, but uses real, remote-controlled go-karts. Participants describe it as "the outlandish spectacle of real go-karting combined with the thrill and immersion of Mario Kart".
02:47:39 <oren_> tswett: I know that, but when should I offer one?
02:50:01 <zzo38> Is there such a thing as a FireWire->RF converter?
02:51:11 <oren_> uh... what sort of signal is being converted?
02:51:25 <zzo38> FireWire video signal
02:51:51 <zzo38> And to convert into analog RF TV cable signal
02:53:26 <oren_> http://www.amazon.com/Canopus-ADVC-110-adapter-FireWire/dp/B001LOO4O2
02:56:14 <zzo38> Also I should want to output any VHF TV channel 2-13, so that a VCR can be programmed to record from any channel
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03:12:58 <pikhq> zzo38: A D-VHS recorder would suffice.
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03:45:49 <tswett> oren_: whenever you want someone to be able to contact you, I guess?
03:46:31 <tswett> I don't think it could be seen as inappropriate to offer a business card. If they're not interested, they can just discard it later.
03:47:12 <zzo38> Or, they should tell you they don't want it, if they don't want it, and then you can save it to give to someone else instead possibly
03:47:49 <tswett> That would be kind of ungracious, though.
03:51:05 <tswett> I wouldn't refuse a business card unless I were completely sure that the other person wouldn't be upset or offended at all.
03:52:05 <zzo38> I wouldn't care; I would just refuse it if I didn't need it (unless they have far more than they need anyways). But if I gave someone business card I would try to ensure that they can give it back if they don't need it. OK
03:54:47 <zzo38> Originally my plan was to make RULECARD out of S-expressions, but now my idea is to make it out of RDF instead. I intended to have that the extensions in the program (the program consists of a set of extensions) are commutative and idempotent, and that any extension can be further extended, and namespaces and private/public and a few other things. RDF already does this automatically though, therefore I can use RDF instead.
04:01:30 <tswett> I think I'd say that refusing a business card is tantamount to outright stating you're not actually interested in contacting the person.
04:01:37 <tswett> Which I guess may or may not be a bad thing.
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04:03:04 <zzo38> tswett: Yes, it may or may not be a bad thing; it can depend on many thing. Or maybe, you just don't contact them for business, and you already know their home telephone number (because they told you before). There can be more than one way.
04:17:00 <oren_> I see... that helps.
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04:40:36 <tswett> Man. So I've been thinking about how to create the Ultimate Computer Language.
04:41:04 <zzo38> Do you know any idea how to do?
04:41:33 <tswett> What I've come up with so far is a language that lets you define "sketches" (which are more or less varieties of algebraic structures) and morphisms between them (essentially functors).
04:42:16 <tswett> This already includes all the basic non-recursive parts of Haskell.
04:42:59 <zzo38> I think you should need macros as well; programming language generally better by having macros, in my opinion .
04:43:28 <tswett> I'm hoping to completely obviate the need for macros.
04:43:33 <zzo38> Although what you have seem good, but you should make example so that I can understand them more better
04:43:50 <tswett> I haven't fully figured it out myself.
04:45:00 <zzo38> Then you must learn.
04:46:01 <tswett> A lot of stuff can be seen as morphisms between sketches. There's a sketch which just means "a type", so defining a type is the same as defining a morphism from the empty sketch to the "a type" sketch.
04:48:14 <tswett> It looks like defining a polymorphic function is essentially defining a sketch morphism which has certain properties.
04:49:01 <tswett> Sketches attempt to define categories, but sketches seem to have some pretty interesting categorical structure themselves.
04:50:34 <tswett> Whelp, I had better go to bed. I need to get up early tomorrow morning and I'm already up late.
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10:58:33 <boily> hellørjan. the drought continues?
10:59:25 <lambdabot> ENVA 261050Z 28015KT 9999 SCT013 BKN024 11/08 Q1017 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 29016KT
11:00:06 <boily> I was refering to the fungotlack hth
11:00:07 <oerjan> actually by the weather forecast it's supposed to be dry now, but no one seems to have told the pavement.
11:00:33 <boily> btw, this looks like reasonable Norweather.
11:00:38 <oerjan> hard to fix with fizzie AWOL
11:00:57 <lambdabot> CYUL 261000Z 01005KT 30SM FEW100 FEW240 13/09 A3003 RMK AC1CI1 SLP170
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11:02:40 <oerjan> boily: for april, maybe.
11:03:12 -!- Patashu has joined.
11:03:17 <boily> maybe it's still April over at your place. who knows, timezones are complicated.
11:03:26 <oerjan> there were 3-4 hot days last week, then it went back down again.
11:04:17 <oerjan> before that, the newspaper wrote articles about "we've had only one registered june colder than this, and that was in the 1920s"
11:06:16 <oerjan> (of course records start some time in the 1800s)
11:17:17 <boily> the lowest we've hit here was 7,2 °C in 1970, highest 33,4 °C in 2003.
11:17:29 <boily> (records from 1942-2015)
11:18:22 <oerjan> oh and i think the record was average daily maximum
11:18:46 <oerjan> not actual point time extremes
11:19:54 <boily> I mean, this winter we broke all kinds of records (damn you February and March!), but that happening in June...
11:20:24 <oerjan> oh it was of course record _for_ june
11:21:47 <oerjan> now last year's january, _that_ was a freaky month.
11:22:01 <oerjan> when you get wildfires spreading, in january, in norway...
11:22:46 <oerjan> (drought, not temperature. they were actually _sub-zero_ wildfires.)
11:23:10 <boily> LA LA LA CAN'T HEAR YOU AIN'T NO SUCH THING AS SUB-ZERO WILDFIRES LA LA LA
11:23:45 <oerjan> seriously, the firefighters had trouble with the water freezing.
11:24:31 <oerjan> boily: celsius not fahrenheit hth
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11:26:27 <oerjan> i'm quite sure i told you all about it at the time.
11:26:52 <boily> I may have had the same reflex at that moment hth
11:26:58 <oerjan> (well maybe not about the water freezing.)
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11:28:00 <boily> meanwhile, I'm going to take a shower. a hot shower, with unmistakeably hot water. the liquid kind that warms you. waaaaaaaaarm.
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12:54:19 <mroman_> timezones are complicated.
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14:20:46 <mroman_> I need to write a bot to search for esolangs that don't involve numbers
14:21:07 <mroman_> then it will help me to create "numeric $language" :)
14:22:00 <mroman_> Numeric Whitespace. Replace \s with 0, \t with 1 and linefeeds with 2
14:22:27 <mroman_> Hppavilion1 sounds a lot like this one virus
14:22:56 <oerjan> it's an actual laptop brand hth
14:29:21 <mroman_> Has anybody tried nuking the sun yet?
14:31:14 <mroman_> there's a quora question about that o_O
14:31:20 <mroman_> but all the answers are just "nope sun is too huge"
14:31:49 <mroman_> maybe it'll trigger a CME of doom or something
14:31:55 <mroman_> without really destroying the sun
14:32:11 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Argh!).
14:32:26 <mroman_> @tell oerjan You can't escape my nukes.
14:34:06 -!- drdanmaku has joined.
14:38:14 <HackEgo> Learned 'can': Can cans can cans?
14:39:44 <Jafet> Some Czechs check cheque checksums.
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14:40:05 <mroman_> It's gonna be a tough weekend
14:40:15 <mroman_> I might develop some esolang as a distraction
14:40:55 <gamemanj> Fungot is STILL gone? I thought I saw... hmm...
14:44:12 <gamemanj> For 4-or-so (When did fnord begin? I don't keep track of time.) MONTHS, or was there a bit of time in the middle?
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14:46:54 * gamemanj doesn't know when this started, but Fungot was trapped in a house for a few weeks a long time ago - is that still the case?
14:47:18 <mroman_> No, this time it's different.
14:48:00 -!- Melvar has joined.
14:50:21 <mroman_> You know... people that get elected or elect themselves
14:50:29 <mroman_> they talk, they have a lot of differences
14:50:40 <mroman_> everyone pretends to like each other but secretely they all hate each other
14:50:44 <gamemanj> That needs more context to make sense...
14:51:13 <gamemanj> IK what politics is - how does it apply?
14:51:19 <mroman_> estonia doesn't want to admit they hate foreigners
14:52:07 <mroman_> gamemanj: You know that I'm crazy and just make this stuff up right?
14:52:54 <Jafet> We'd better set mroman to use something other than europarl.
14:53:08 <mroman_> Do you want me to use "ghangsta"?
14:53:17 <gamemanj> The Estonia bit I figured was a joke, but...
14:53:18 <mroman_> Jafet: Please select a style
14:53:40 <Jafet> Perhaps "irc" is the best.
14:53:40 <oren_> my dad was in estonia once... they mainly hate russians
14:54:10 <mroman_> There's a fnord in estonia. Although long time not seen much. Russia is
14:54:22 <oren_> but that'a common for post-soviet colonies
14:54:50 <mroman_> I used emacs once. Can it fnord files?
14:55:52 -!- MDream has changed nick to MDude.
14:56:32 <gamemanj> int-e... you could delay the madness for them... you know how... towel poetry magrathea
14:57:01 <mroman_> Scheme is really crispy. (fnord (cnat (cnat (fnord)).
14:57:02 -!- vanila has joined.
14:58:32 <mroman_> vanila: Current selected style is "irc".
15:07:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43294&oldid=43268 * Rdococ * (+153) /* PFIL */
15:12:17 <int-e> You mean I could reactivate my fungot instance?
15:13:07 <int-e> I don't have the right ssh credentials right now.
15:13:40 <mroman_> Some sequences require std::vector. Notably the fact that fnord.
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15:32:52 <HackEgo> goat/Goats are drunk 24/7, ask Solain for details.
15:40:13 <HackEgo> szoup/A szoup a szilárd tápszereknek híg alakban való elkészítése a célból, hogy könnyebben emészthetők legyenek; a hígító anyag a viz, mely feloldja s magába veszi a tápanyag legértékesebb részeit.
15:40:19 <HackEgo> indexed monad/Indexed monads are just monads on an indexed category. \ Indexed monads are just categories enriched over the monoidal category of endofunctors.
15:40:52 <HackEgo> structural subtyping/Not to be confused with substructural typing.
15:41:22 <vanila> this channel is just bot spam
15:41:56 <oren_> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XShdmeKmNxw
15:42:54 <oren_> don't you have any love for the robots?
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15:45:04 <gamemanj> Which esoteric languages have network support...?
15:46:34 <oren_> However most could easily be extened to support it
15:48:33 <oren_> L33t apparently does
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15:57:15 <Jafet> A better question might be: which esolangs are inherently networked
15:58:56 <hppavilion1> A BETTER question might be: Brainfuck with networking. How do we do it and make it useful?
15:59:27 <oren_> `cat emoticons/gaaan
16:01:27 <HackEgo> cat: emoticons/*: No such file or directory
16:01:44 <HackEgo> drowning \ flipbird \ gaaan \ gaan \ kyaa \ shrug \ swatter \ useless
16:05:20 <MDude> An esoteric language where non-trivial programs require messages to get bounced between multiple machines?
16:06:07 <oren_> hppavilion1: I think you mean 凸
16:06:14 <FireFly> MDude: sorry, TIS-100 was released a month ago
16:07:14 <FireFly> A game slash assembly-ish programming language that requires data to get bounced between multiple machines for nontrivial programs
16:07:37 <oren_> Hmm... scripts differ in how much a character can differ between fonts
16:08:11 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
16:08:54 <FireFly> (each node can hold up to two numbers, although only one is accessible at a time)
16:08:56 * hppavilion1 awkwardly makes smalltalk (No Pun Intended)
16:14:26 <MDude> But what is the source of the song in http://www.4chan.org/flash?file=dsfargeg.swf&title=dsfargeg ?
16:14:31 -!- hppavilion1 has quit (Ping timeout: 246 seconds).
16:14:35 <MDude> Dangit I"m int he wrong freaking channel
16:15:18 <MDude> This is what happens when I go to seven channels on three servers, and at least two discuss programming-related things sometimes.
16:19:13 <int-e> To add insult to the injury, I also deleted that fungot/funge experiment. So I probably won't revive it.
16:20:30 <int-e> Oh, not quite. I moved lambdabot to a different host in the meantime... the files are still around.
16:24:12 -!- fnordbot has joined.
16:24:46 <int-e> Ok, that was easier than I thought.
16:24:50 <int-e> fnordbot: explain!
16:24:51 <fnordbot> int-e: on a piece. within a few short vog years every last vogon had migrated to the megabrantis cluster, the political economy. deep in the heart of a dark screen, just under five years, but you will when i was a kid you just saved a lot. " so," said ford, " you reckon, what's the problem? a sudden silence afterwards." you can tell. he sat at it for a while. but he didn't turn yet," a voice said " i seem to be having tremendou
16:25:32 <oren_> holy crap, the USSC has gone for it
16:29:21 <oren_> I did not expect that
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16:31:23 <oren_> good afternoooooon
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16:34:39 <oren_> byyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyw
16:45:19 <oren_> Hmm... So we have variable typing, like Java or C, and value typing, like python or haskell. is there any other options?
16:46:22 <gamemanj> oren_: Line number typing, where the type changes based on line number?
16:47:17 <oren_> Then that would be valeu typing with a weird syntax, right?
16:48:36 <oren_> I suppose you have operator typing, like Forth
16:49:04 <oren_> (values are just bits. the operator determines what those bits are interpreted as)
16:49:07 <gamemanj> "Then that would be valeu typing with a weird syntax, right?" : Yes.
16:49:37 <gamemanj> But where's the fun in saying that?
16:51:24 <oren_> OpenGL is partially variable typed and partially operator tpyed
16:52:53 <oren_> (you give it a set of numbers, and whether those numbers are in groups of 9 representing triangles or 6 representing lines, or whatever, is determined separately)
16:54:14 <oren_> I suppose there is also "monotyping" where only one type is supported directly.
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17:26:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Typing]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43295 * Orenwatson * (+1022) taxonomy of languages by type system... probably doesn't cover all bases yet.
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17:28:07 <oren_> Am I missing anything?
17:28:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Hppavilion1]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43296 * Hppavilion1 * (+83) /* I don't want my talk button to be a red link */ new section
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17:34:42 <oren_> are there any type systems that aren't in one of those groups?
17:39:20 <izabera> what about the "everything is a string" type?
17:39:35 <hppavlion1> How about the mandatorily dynamic type?
17:40:01 <hppavlion1> Every time you reassign a variable, the new value has to be a different type from its current value
17:41:00 <b_jonas> hppavlion1: only its current value, or all the previous values? do languages with only mutable-once variables count?
17:41:26 <b_jonas> oh that's easy enough, just zero the value temporarily
17:42:00 <hppavlion1> But it's still a different type system
17:42:53 <hppavlion1> (The above statement evaluates to true)
17:42:56 <Jafet> The PHP stringly-typed system
17:48:00 <hppavlion1> How about the overly-static type system?
17:49:40 <hppavlion1> Then there's a family of of kinda-sora-dynamic types
17:49:53 <hppavlion1> The first one makes it so variabels can change type, but only in a family
17:50:24 <hppavlion1> (int can become short or long, but not char, char can become string. Groups are arbitrary, not memory based)
17:50:43 <hppavlion1> But they can only change to the next type in a chain
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18:56:10 <HackEgo> qdbformat/qdbformat is: <nick> message; * nick action; two spaces between messages; all elisions marked with [...] other than irrelevant intervening messages; for messages separated by elision, one space on each side, not two
18:57:52 <HackEgo> metasepia/metasepia knows the weather at your nearest airport, and also something about ducks.
18:58:11 <HackEgo> monoids/Monoids are the easy version of categories.
18:58:17 <HackEgo> ⌨/You are probably using one right now!
18:58:25 <HackEgo> qzyzzalroum/You should start the crossword over.
18:58:37 <HackEgo> arothmorphise/arothmorphise ... antormo... antrohm... ant... oh bugger. This should go in the `misspellings of antrhrop... atnhro...' entry.
18:58:48 <int-e> `` sed -i s/knows/knew/ wisdom/metasepia
18:58:49 <HackEgo> code/[11,11,11,15,15,23,12],[5,5,5,3,53,45,16,26,00,20,15,16,22,25,45,91,32,11,15,27,06,01,11,01,47,22,30,13,43,21,11,13,29,61,65,17,19,12,28,17,11,01,23,20,16,20,81,18,32,25,58,22.,1985,10.301350435,1555466973690094680980000956080767,13720946704494913791885940266665466978579582015128512190078...
18:59:44 <HackEgo> fternoon/Fternoon is the time of day when the Danes usually eat their fternooners.
19:01:12 <int-e> hmm, does that contextual dice come up often?
19:04:00 <shachaf> I can't remember ever seeing it come up accidentally.
19:04:06 <shachaf> Though it must occasionally.
19:04:34 <shachaf> But it doesn't trigger in the middle 100d100 of a sentence.
19:04:47 <int-e> ok, sounds harmless enough then :)
19:05:13 <shachaf> Yes, the ol' d1 lambdabot calculator trick.
19:05:14 <int-e> and it's clever enough to require at least one die throw
19:05:59 <int-e> Jafet: it's using a normal distribution for that
19:06:09 <int-e> (rounding, obviously)
19:06:11 <HackEgo> character/A character is just a homomorphism to the group of complex numbers of modulus 1.
19:06:40 <HackEgo> bc/bc ௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵௵
19:06:44 <int-e> `? out of character
19:06:44 <HackEgo> out of character? ¯\(°_o)/¯
19:06:47 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull guestbot
19:06:53 <shachaf> `` hg log wisdom/bc | grep summary:
19:06:55 <HackEgo> summary: <Bike> revert \ summary: <FreeFull> for x in wisdom/*; do rev "$x" > "$x"a; mv "$x"a "$x"; done \ summary: <guestbot> learn bc \xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\xb5\xe0\xaf\x
19:07:06 <shachaf> What's this guestbot thing?
19:07:16 <HackEgo> bowser/A Bowser is a Koopa client for convenient administration of mooks in Mushroom Kingdom.
19:09:15 <int-e> `` learn A trick learnt is a trick half forgotten.
19:09:35 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
19:10:06 <HackEgo> A is _not_ a village in Norway, unless you're the BBC and don't understand things on top of letters.
19:10:11 <int-e> `learn A trick learnt is a trick half forgotten.
19:10:13 <HackEgo> Learned 'trick': A trick learnt is a trick half forgotten.
19:12:30 -!- impomatic_ has quit (Quit: http://corewar.co.uk).
19:12:40 <HackEgo> lambdabot is a fully functional bot. just don't ask about @src.
19:12:46 <HackEgo> fungot is our beloved channel mascot and voice of reason.
19:13:04 <int-e> fnordbot: you're just a poor substitute.
19:13:05 <fnordbot> int-e: of no significance of anything he did. " you're really not going to be outcooled. panic sprouted again, desperate that any man who can," ford hissed at him to stop his hands. the marketing division of the sirius cybernetics corporation as " a bunch of mindless tedium... " you think the problem, to be quite honest with you, is the story to him to ask a question which had been bothering him. in a few seconds," he continued
19:17:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Typing]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43297&oldid=43295 * Zzo38 * (+37)
19:18:09 <int-e> hmm, ais523 has not returned after being kicked by oerjan...
19:20:38 <zzo38> We are having to make Unusenet now, in case you don't have Usenet then you can use Unusenet by NNTP
19:28:31 -!- Atheneti has joined.
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19:31:28 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
19:36:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * EmptyJL * New user account
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19:39:03 <shachaf> zzo38: If I don't have Usenet, why would I have Unusenet?
19:39:52 <oren_> seen doesn't work anymore?
19:41:27 <zzo38> In case you can't use Usenet (many service providers no longer support it I have heard, and even if they do some groups may be missing), so we can make up Unusenet instead.
19:42:07 <oren_> it should say "oren_ is in #esoteric, Oren last spoke at something something"
19:43:17 <shachaf> who's to say what it should or shouldn't do?
19:43:22 <HackEgo> category/Categories are just a special case of bicategories.
19:46:12 <zzo38> Why did Atheneti join this channel just to send me a private message containing a link to a gopher server on a non-standard port number that contained instruction to tell a user on another IRC network something?
19:49:33 <oren_> As of today, I have been running the same irssi process for 25 days
19:50:58 <oren_> seems that irssi has stable code
19:52:09 <shachaf> zzo38: Which user on what network?
19:54:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43298 * EmptyJL * (+2832) Created page with " Noisett is a minimalistic multi-agent middleware, where agents are tiny pattern-triggered peers. These agents are named "Nuts". When they receive a message, they can send ot..."
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19:58:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43299&oldid=43293 * EmptyJL * (+14)
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20:02:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43300&oldid=43298 * EmptyJL * (+24)
20:03:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number-rock]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43301 * Zzo38 * (+2970) Created page with "[[Category:Languages]][[Category:2015]][[Category:Unimplemented]] [[Number-rock]] is the programming language where the program consist of a series of definitions. It is not ..."
20:04:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43302&oldid=43300 * EmptyJL * (+25)
20:04:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43303&oldid=43302 * EmptyJL * (+2)
20:06:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Number-rock]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43304&oldid=43301 * Zzo38 * (+45)
20:07:31 <HackEgo> XQELEKCTHZVBDBQR/Who told you this?
20:07:34 <HackEgo> 1/The 1 is just for disambiguation.
20:07:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/cologneblue.css]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43305 * Zzo38 * (+416) Created page with ".postedit, #sitesub, #titlelinks, #sitetitle, #siteNotice, #footer-navigation, .tagline, #mw-navigation, .mw-editTools, #editpage-copywarn { display: none; } .tocnumber, .mw-h..."
20:08:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Zzo38/cologneblue.js]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43306 * Zzo38 * (+223) Created page with "$(mw.util.addPortletLink('p-personal','#',undefined,undefined,undefined,'g')).click(function(e){ var x; e.preventDefault(); x=prompt("Goto?",mw.config.get('wgPageName'))..."
20:14:02 <HackEgo> tanebvention/Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, the reals, and this sentence. He never invents anything involving sex.
20:15:27 <HackEgo> phở/Phở là một món ăn truyền thống của Việt Nam, cũng có thể xem là một trong những món ăn đặc trưng nhất cho ẩm thực Việt Nam.
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20:17:47 <HackEgo> unlambda/``ci`r`.!`.l`.a`.i`.v`.i`.r`.t`. `.t`.s`.e`.'`.c`. `.,`.a`.d`.b`.m`.a`.l`.n`.U`ci
20:17:59 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
20:18:22 <HackEgo> ascii/ascii is the plural of ascius
20:18:31 <HackEgo> endofunctor/Endofunctors are just endomorphisms in the category of categories.
20:18:36 <HackEgo> logs/I think you might mean !logs
20:18:52 <HackEgo> torus/Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
20:19:27 <HackEgo> right/Right is not two wrongs but three lefts.
20:19:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43307&oldid=43303 * 90.5.212.59 * (+102)
20:20:46 <HackEgo> pietbot/Pietbot is the only thing that can defeat fungot.
20:20:54 <int-e> `` sed -i s/them/it/ wisdom/torus
20:22:58 <HackEgo> `culprits` is a program that lists the lists the nicks responsible for a wisdom entry. Usage: `culprits wisdom/ENTRY
20:23:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43308&oldid=43307 * EmptyJL * (+44)
20:27:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43309&oldid=43308 * 90.5.212.59 * (+0)
20:35:01 <HackEgo> badger badger badger badger badger badger badger badger mushroom mushroom
20:35:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Owk]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43310 * Phase * (+3599) Add Owk language
20:40:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Owk]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43311&oldid=43310 * Phase * (-149) Fix code blocks
20:44:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Phase]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43312 * Phase * (+212) My very own page
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20:46:03 <HackEgo> thausiblee/A thausiblee is the recipient of a thausible action.
20:46:11 <HackEgo> herbalist/A herbalist is a list of herbas.
20:46:16 <HackEgo> forth/Since Biblical times, Forth has been the go-to language for multiplication.
20:46:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/move]] move * Phase * moved [[Phase]] to [[User:Phase]]: Forgot the "User:"
20:47:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Owk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43315&oldid=43311 * Phase * (+5)
20:47:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Cod]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43316&oldid=43291 * Phase * (+5)
20:51:33 <b_jonas> ais523: I realized something about M:tG. In the ravnica block, the cards costing hybrid mana are completely uniform: every guild has exactly one common, it costs one hybrid mana plus possibly some colorless; one uncommon hybrid card which is the guildmage; and one rare hybrid. Was this obvious to everyone other than me?
20:52:18 <ais523> b_jonas: it's called "cycles"
20:52:30 <ais523> the M:tG designers put them in a lot because people like seeing them
20:54:00 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, sure, but I didn't realize this particular cycle of commons
20:54:18 <b_jonas> even though I knew three or four cards of them, and knew about the guildmages and a few other guild cycles
20:54:46 <b_jonas> probably it's because I sometimes don't realize what cards are from ravnica rather than shadowmoor
20:55:57 <b_jonas> and sure, there are other cycles that took a long time for me to realize
20:58:17 <b_jonas> also, for a very long time I didn't know about Gaze of the Gorgon, despite that for a long time I was thinking of building a deck that would need that card and was trying to look for such cards
20:58:33 <b_jonas> and by the time I realized that Gaze of the Gorgon exists, shadowmoor was already out with a lot of hybrids
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21:14:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Lamb]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43317 * Phase * (+875) Added the Lamb language
21:17:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43318&oldid=43299 * Phase * (+10) /* C */ Added Cod language
21:18:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43319&oldid=43318 * Phase * (+11) /* L */ Added Lamb language
21:19:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43320&oldid=43319 * Phase * (+10) /* O */ Added Owk language
21:21:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Hppavilion1]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43321&oldid=43279 * Phase * (+41) Add link the GitHub page
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21:28:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Developers]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43322&oldid=43128 * Phase * (+14711) Copy Uncyclopedia article, as it may be deleted
21:29:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noit o' mnain worb]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43323&oldid=34952 * 86.130.248.38 * (+38) /* Etymology */ explain what the hidden message is
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21:47:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Phase]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43324&oldid=43313 * Phase * (+11) Link to Lamb
22:07:19 <oerjan> <oren_> holy crap, the USSC has gone for it <-- oh no. does that mean we're doomed? if only i knew wtf you're referring to twh
22:08:22 <coppro> oerjan: same-sex marriage
22:09:55 <oerjan> the united states sentencing commission has to meddle in everything.
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22:10:07 <lambdabot> ENVA 262150Z 32006KT 9999 BKN026 09/04 Q1016 RMK WIND 670FT 33007KT
22:10:11 <lambdabot> CYUL 262200Z 31008KT 30SM FEW060 FEW090 FEW240 24/08 A3005 RMK SC1AC1CI2 SC TR AC TR SLP177 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
22:10:31 * oerjan suddenly senses a weird surplus of canadians.
22:12:46 <boily> weird surplus? I don't think we're too many Canadians in this chännel.
22:12:50 <olsner> canadians? I thought this was full of finns
22:13:21 <boily> well, our finns aren't doing too well lately...
22:13:31 * boily pokes through fizzie's ghostly aura
22:13:54 <oerjan> olsner: it was just the weirdness of discussing us news with only canadians involved
22:15:08 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm not canadian yet hth
22:15:12 <zzo38> I am also Canadian
22:15:22 <olsner> I am also not canadian
22:15:57 <coppro> to fix a canadian surplus, call them americans
22:15:57 <lambdabot> LOWI 262150Z AUTO VRB01KT 9999 OVC120 18/12 Q1021
22:16:00 <oerjan> shachaf: you also weren't speaking
22:19:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43325&oldid=43309 * EmptyJL * (+48)
22:20:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43326&oldid=43325 * EmptyJL * (+4)
22:25:31 <zzo38> This is the code of Famizork so far http://sprunge.us/dOfH it doesn't quite work I wonder if you can know the mistake? I found a few mistakes and fixed it but possibly if many people look, more mistake can be figure out
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22:48:01 <HackEgo> off by two/An off by two error is what happens when you expect an off by one error but compensate in the wrong direction.
22:49:11 <boily> `culprits wisdom/tdt
22:50:29 <int-e> ...surprisingly...
22:56:00 <ais523> hmm, pretty much all the spam that's been getting past my spam filter has been the "your email account is being upgraded/blocked/etc., please log in here to refresh it" kind
22:56:12 <ais523> but I run my own email server
22:56:37 <quintopia> is there a filter you can make that stops those too?
22:56:38 <ais523> the spambots seem to have assumed it's an academic server, I think
22:56:51 <ais523> quintopia: well it's a bayesian filter, it'll catch any that look similar enough to the ones that have come before
22:56:56 <ais523> maybe they just have more variety
22:57:28 <boily> quintopia: I had a beer.
22:58:58 <quintopia> i have one chilling in the freezer. shouldn't take more than a few minutes before i have one.
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23:01:37 <boily> what kind of beer is it?
23:03:25 <boily> ooooh! somebody else who likes shandy! :D
23:04:10 <quintopia> well it's not a radler. the only fizz is the natural beer kind.
23:06:40 <quintopia> there are lots of ginger shandies at the beer store, mostly from the islands
23:09:11 <oren_> the thing stores 8f to 4000, then 48 to 4001, then 64 to 4002, then finally 10 to 4003
23:09:47 <oren_> thus producing an annoying beepthat I am trying to eliminate
23:12:06 <boily> helloren_. what's a thing?
23:12:43 <oren_> with the worst sound of any nes game I have ever played
23:13:31 <oren_> quintopia: I have to figure out where the values come from first
23:14:49 <oren_> well they are read from 0753-0756
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23:17:30 <zzo38> Is there Windows API to figure out how much space is take up by the border, caption, menu of the window so that you can figure out the proper size of the main area?
23:18:03 <quintopia> i thought there was one that actually just told you what th esize of the main area is? or does it give wrong answers?
23:18:44 <zzo38> I don't know, what one is it though?
23:21:30 <ais523> zzo38: there is; I can't remember the actual name, but windows uses the name "client area" for the main area, and "non-client area" for the border, caption, menus etc.
23:21:34 <ais523> so those are good search terms to use
23:21:43 <quintopia> i would expect it to be one of thesse things: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms724385(v=vs.85).aspx
23:22:12 <ais523> I think it might have had "metrics" in the name?
23:22:55 <quintopia> or maybe that's more general than a particular window
23:25:02 <zzo38> The VB6 "Height" and "Width" properties are including the non-client area
23:25:03 <quintopia> https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms633503(v=vs.85).aspx this looks promising
23:25:14 <oren_> maybe I can replace the code with a JMP to some zeroed pat of the rom and write some interception code?
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23:30:20 <zzo38> I figured it out I don't need any API functions
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23:52:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Developers]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43327&oldid=43322 * Oerjan * (-14711) Reverted edits by [[Special:Contributions/Phase|Phase]] ([[User talk:Phase|talk]]) to last revision by [[User:24.150.81.84|24.150.81.84]]
23:52:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] revision * Oerjan * Oerjan changed visibility of revisions on page [[Developers]]: Copyright violation
23:53:20 <ais523> ooh, we have revision visibility changing now?
23:53:35 <ais523> my skills at manual revision deletion are possibly entirely obsolete then :-(
23:53:51 <ais523> nah, it hadn't even been invented when I first became an Esolang admin
23:53:58 <ais523> I've done it manually at Wikipedia too
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00:06:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Phase]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43328 * Oerjan * (+358) /* Developers */ License incompatibility
00:07:19 <oren_> now, how do I diff two roms?
00:09:00 <HackEgo> fternooner/fternooner (Danish »fternooner«, Norwegian «ttermiddag», Swedish ”ftermiddag”) is a screamingly delicious pastry.
00:09:07 <HackEgo> spam/Spam is a delicious meat product. See http://www.spamjamhawaii.com/
00:09:09 <oren_> by 'it' I mean I got 1942 to not sound so much like 8-bit diarrhea
00:09:14 <HackEgo> universal property/Universal properties are the best.
00:09:40 <oerjan> shachaf: i am thinking that maybe, perhaps, you are overdoing `wisdom a tiny bit, possibly.
00:10:04 <shachaf> can you put a probability on it
00:11:38 <oerjan> i am thinking that maybe, perhaps, you are overreacting a tiny bit, possibly.
00:12:08 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:12:12 <shachaf> oerjan: The thing is, if I don't delete bin/wisdom, I'll forget and keep using it.
00:13:09 <shachaf> What if I limit myself to only about a hundred a day?
00:14:16 <oerjan> HackEgo needs better meta-information available.
00:15:36 <oerjan> hm there's no way to implement a limit without having `wisdom do repository changes, is there.
00:16:00 <ais523> oerjan: you could modify HackEgo itself hth
00:16:26 <HackEgo> 25) <ehird> pikhq: A lunar nation is totally pointless. <fungebob> ehird: consider low-gravity porn <ehird> fungebob: OK. Now I'm convinced.
00:16:27 <HackEgo> 1005) <olsner> I've seen horses jump on tv, they can probably jump in scotland too
00:16:28 <HackEgo> 34) <Dylan> actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions
00:16:30 <HackEgo> 1057) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
00:16:31 <HackEgo> 906) <zzo38> I do study philosophy of much.
00:19:07 <HackEgo> *poof* <Dylan> actually, I pretended to be a hobo to get directions
00:19:08 <ais523> it's not /awful/, but I like the others
00:19:22 <ais523> maybe we should have a similar rule for `wisdom
00:20:10 <ais523> reading through a list of quotes normally makes me laugh so much that I can have trouble breathing
00:20:11 <oerjan> sorry, `wisdom can only be improved, not deleted hth
00:20:29 <olsner> oerjan: bad or boring wisdom should be deleted imo
00:20:34 <olsner> just like quotes but different
00:20:47 <oerjan> olsner: no you should be required to make a better one hth
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00:21:31 <oerjan> except those guestbot ones. what's about those?
00:22:18 <oerjan> guestbot made some wisdoms that were seemingly random junk
00:23:11 <ais523> `le/rn hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
00:23:14 <HackEgo> Learned «hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2»
00:23:25 <ais523> let's see how much I can bring down the quality of wisdom before people start deleting it
00:23:36 <HackEgo> rm: cannot remove `/home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/env/.hg/store/data/canary.orig': Is a directory \ Done.
00:23:51 <oerjan> that wasn't a wisdom, you forgot the slash hth
00:24:06 <ais523> it was a very foolish wisdom
00:25:54 * oerjan needs to avoid procrastinating going to bed so much tonight
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00:27:10 <ais523> that quit message hurts my brain :-(
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00:33:19 <oren_> http://s000.tinyupload.com/index.php?file_id=10002352884006354848
00:33:38 <oren_> There. Now 1942 doesn't sound like complete *shit*
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01:23:00 <oren_> 8 bit color is good for reducing the size of images
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03:25:11 <Sgeo_> I screwed up my Facebook profile's thumbnail
03:25:44 <Sgeo_> I wanted to see what the pride filter looked like if applied twice. Then I tried to switch back to the first one, but the thumbnail now isn't the same, the purple is cut off
03:33:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROT13 encoder]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43329 * 24.72.137.130 * (+35) Redirected page to [[ROT13 encoder/decoder]]
03:34:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ROT13 decoder]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43330 * 24.72.137.130 * (+35) Redirected page to [[ROT13 encoder/decoder]]
03:41:48 <fowl> Thats the cost of pridefulness
04:03:18 <oren_> domain names are insanely cheap
04:03:47 <quintopia> what was the copyright violation that oerjan reverted?
04:06:13 <oren_> oerjan and shachaf: you could implement a limit on `wisdom by having it seach for invocations of itself in the logs
04:06:54 <oren_> that would not cause repo changes, would it.
04:07:29 <quintopia> i'm guessing it was a copy of this page http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Developers!
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04:24:10 <shachaf> oren_: HackEgo doesn't have access to the logs anymore hth
04:55:29 <oren_> uh, just wget them?
05:25:18 <fowl> There no wget, only zuul
05:31:34 <coppro> @tell boily got my first yakuman today! suuankou
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07:21:39 <izabera> d'aawwww github and stackoverflow have a rainbow logo today
07:22:23 <izabera> https://assets-cdn.github.com/images/icons/pridetocat.png
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08:33:14 <oerjan> @ask ais523 <ais523> that quit message hurts my brain :-( <-- is your brain vulnerable to logic bombs tdnh
08:42:28 <oerjan> very well, it was "Hi!" hth
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12:40:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43331&oldid=42836 * Esowiki201529A * (+75)
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15:59:58 <mauris> @tell boily i am here (also, i am nooodl)
16:29:46 <lambdabot> Local time for oren_ is Sat Jun 27 12:31:53 2015
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18:23:07 <HackEgo> noooooooodl is the correct spelling
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18:31:39 <int-e> please tell me we didn't have a noodl incident
18:35:18 <lambdabot> LOWI 271820Z 06003KT 350V130 9999 -SHRA FEW010 SCT060 BKN080 FEW080CB 17/15 Q1020 TEMPO TSRA
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19:00:06 <HackEgo> nooooooodl is the correct spelling
19:02:41 <shachaf> `le/rn mauris/maur is the correct spelling
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20:14:40 <Sgeo_> Holy crap I found a tumblr with background music that doesn't autoplay
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20:19:33 <Sgeo_> http://enbizaka-murders.tumblr.com/
20:19:39 <oren_> I remember music on webpages. they had that in like 2006? and then it went away...
20:22:19 <oren_> Well specifically I rember it on myspace. I guess all those people went to tumblr, and I got too busy to argue with people over stupis stuff on the internet
20:24:48 <Sgeo_> Ok this person posts way way way too frequently for me to ever catch up
20:25:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shoelips]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43332 * Phase * (+4322) Shopelips language
20:26:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Shoelips]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43333&oldid=43332 * Phase * (-148)
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20:48:03 <oerjan> <shachaf> `le/rn mauris/maur is the correct spelling <-- did you know no:maur = en:ant hth
20:49:06 <oerjan> <shachaf> seems a waste <-- there's at least one other
20:49:12 <HackEgo> Nooooooodles are the invention of the Chinese. They were brought to Europe by Marco Polo, a distant ancestor of Taneb.
20:49:26 <mauris> shachaf: things've been good! how're shachafs
20:50:13 <mauris> (i patiently await lauding feedback from oerjan on my knowledge of the norwegian language)
20:50:17 <shachaf> `` rgrep -il nooodl wisdom
20:50:19 <HackEgo> wisdom/nooodle \ wisdom/nooodl
20:52:44 <HackEgo> cat: wisdom/noodle: No such file or directory
20:53:05 <HackEgo> nooodl is the correct spelling
20:54:44 * oerjan didn't connect mauris's statement to his own.
21:01:03 <shachaf> oerjan: just look around you hth
21:06:24 <oerjan> shachaf: i don't see how that is relevant, and neither does my calcium consultant
21:06:56 <shachaf> am i missing something now
21:08:37 <oerjan> the calcium thinks you're really bad at this obscure reference thing hth
21:09:21 <HackEgo> 791) <Phantom__Hoover> the scene: it is a warm summer's day in scotland, although one obscured by cloud and the fact that it is september
21:09:35 <oerjan> we've never added that thing ais523 said
21:10:49 <oerjan> about obscure references
21:11:55 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm not trying to be obscure
21:12:48 <shachaf> yes but could you say what you mean instead
21:13:38 <ais523> oerjan: I'm not as vulnerable to logic bombs as computers in fiction are
21:14:03 <oerjan> shachaf: this is intelligent calcium hth
21:14:16 <oerjan> just look around you, it's everywhere
21:14:59 <shachaf> ok so is the whole thing a thing where you talk about something else out of look around you
21:15:49 <oerjan> `addquote <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
21:15:51 <HackEgo> 1246) <ais523> (on another note, I love the way that the standard way to indicate that you get a reference is to make a different obscure reference to the same thing)
21:16:24 <ais523> I said that ages ago, but the sentence is still true
21:16:34 <oerjan> btw googling for that in the logs mainly brings up my previous desperate attempts to find it in the logs.
21:17:05 <shachaf> i didn't know that was a standard way
21:17:59 <shachaf> in fact references are just terrible
21:18:45 <oerjan> shachaf: then why did you make one tdnh
21:36:30 <ais523> $ TZ='UTC+2' LC_ALL=fr_FR.UTF-8 date
21:36:32 <ais523> samedi 27 juin 2015, 19:37:45 (UTC-0200)
21:36:34 <ais523> $ TZ='UTC-2' LC_ALL=fr_FR.UTF-8 date
21:36:35 <ais523> samedi 27 juin 2015, 23:37:50 (UTC+0200)
21:39:09 <ais523> it's more that the TZ variable is being interpreted backwards
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21:45:13 <shachaf> `` TZ='UTC+8' date +'%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %:::z'
21:45:17 <shachaf> `` TZ='UTC-8' date +'%Y-%m-%d %H:%M:%S %:::z'
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23:07:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43334&oldid=43331 * Esowiki201529A * (+266) /* Quine */
23:16:30 <oren_> AWWW! Tama the stationmaster cat has passed on... RIP Tama.
23:31:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43335&oldid=43334 * Esowiki201529A * (+574)
23:36:32 <oren_> If the russians get Greece they won't need Syris
23:37:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43336&oldid=43335 * Esowiki201529A * (+35) /* Oscillator */
23:39:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43337&oldid=43336 * Esowiki201529A * (+16) /* [conwaylife.com/wiki/Oscillator Oscillator] */
23:39:22 <MDude> But would they need to pay all that debt for them?
23:40:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43338&oldid=43337 * Esowiki201529A * (-9) /* Oscillator */
23:40:50 <oren_> No idea. But if greece gets kicked out of EU, under a socialist gov't, they might at least be receptive to a russian offer of trade
23:42:16 <oren_> I mean, greece doesn't owe russia nay money, they owe it to the Germans (and Swiss)
23:43:48 <oren_> And what better way to piss off Germany than to let Russian ships berth there?
23:44:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43339&oldid=43338 * Esowiki201529A * (+60) /* Oscillator */
23:44:47 <oren_> So yeah, that is my crazy prediction
23:46:18 <boily> I predict a merger of the Greek and cyrillic alphabets.
23:46:22 <lambdabot> coppro said 18h 14m 49s ago: got my first yakuman today! suuankou
23:46:22 <lambdabot> mauris said 7h 46m 24s ago: i am here (also, i am nooodl)
23:47:05 <HackEgo> maur is the correct spelling
23:47:40 <boily> already prepared to be wisdompdfified. good job guys!
23:47:58 <shachaf> not a fan of the wisdom pdf tdnh
23:48:12 <shachaf> i like logs to remain in the past
23:49:11 <fungot> boily: and it makes my pinky hurt
23:49:21 <fungot> boily: fnord and me are trying to solve two problems at once, i think. it's just
23:49:44 <oren_> Boily: I already implemented an encoding with CGL Unification
23:50:17 <oren_> Cyrillic Greek and Latin
23:50:33 <oren_> Essentially the characters that look the same are encoded only once
23:54:15 <shachaf> what's that softish brown finnish bread called?
23:55:49 <mauris> my google skills guess "ruis"
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23:57:39 <oren_> `welcome ZombieAlive
23:57:40 <HackEgo> ZombieAlive: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
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00:00:57 <HackEgo> fowl: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
00:01:09 <fowl> Thanks fowl you're so kind
00:01:27 <fowl> I feel like i am part of this community now
00:03:29 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"i=1024 i*16 _xi"
00:04:07 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"i=1024 i*64 _xi"
00:05:09 <oren_> why do I not have scrip7 on my own computer?
00:06:52 <boily> fowl: fellowl. you never were `welcomed?
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00:13:56 <fowl> I dunno. I drift in an out of lucidity so maybe
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01:33:18 <fowl> What do you all think about code of conducts
01:33:25 <fowl> Codes of conduct?
01:33:32 <fowl> Conductive codes?
01:35:00 <boily> (more seriously, codes of conduct.)
01:43:31 -!- boily has set topic: oren_ finds bugs. | Sir Fungellot is alive and fnord! | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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02:30:40 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%19380 j=29 j*16 i-j _xi"
02:31:10 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%19380 j=78 j*16 ij _xi"
02:31:15 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%19380 j=78 j*16 i+j _xi"
02:32:37 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%19380 j=78 j*16 i+j _xi"
02:34:52 <oren_> [5~[5~[5~[5~[5~[A[B[5~[5~[5~[B[5~[6~
02:35:25 <augur> fowl: every community has a code of conduct
02:35:36 <augur> but most communities leave it implicit
02:36:38 <augur> someone set us up the bomb
02:36:38 <oren_> wow that's a weird glitch, I thought ssh was immune to line noise
02:38:10 <pikhq> It's not immune to terminal weirdness, however.
02:38:11 <oren_> yeah, that seems like what it must be
02:39:20 <oren_> well I restarted xfceterm
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03:05:20 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%191b0 j=29 j*16 i-j _xi"
03:05:26 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%191b0 j=29 j*16 i+j _xi"
03:05:30 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%191b0 j=18 j*16 i+j _xi"
03:11:14 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%191b0 j=15 j*16 i+j _xi"
03:27:46 <f|`-`|f> my issue with codes of conduct is the vulnerablity of the code itself
03:28:05 <f|`-`|f> in lieu of pressure, or threats from the outside decrying you of not being "conducive"
03:30:15 <f|`-`|f> A lotof the times, the code becomes bogged down naturally from a lot of barrages from internal and external "moralistic community leaders", and it comes in the way of normal function
03:30:25 <f|`-`|f> Due to things like micromanaging behavior
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03:43:25 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%19280 j=19 j*16 i-j _xi"
03:44:00 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%191b0 j=15 j*%16 i+j _xi"
03:44:32 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%19280 j=%19 j*16 i-j _xi"
03:45:04 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%190f0 j=%07 j*16 i+j _xi"
03:46:30 <oren_> ok, that's what was wrong
03:47:41 <augur> who's to say it was wrong
03:48:04 <augur> maybe you're wrong? how do you know this words means what you think it means?
03:48:10 <oren_> well, it wasnt't pointing me to the right place in the romfile to edit
03:48:54 <oren_> or rather, to the place I wanted to edit, whether wrong or right
03:52:39 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%190f0 j=%11 j*16 i+j _xi"
03:56:24 <oren_> `` scrip7 <<<"j>1 i=%190f0 j=%40 j*16 i+j _xi"
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09:06:24 <HackEgo> 1116) <ais523> hmm… I guess the difference between me and most esolangers is that I don't instantly go and put it into a BF derivative and call it a day
09:06:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: quote`: not found
09:06:34 <HackEgo> 680) * Phantom_Hoover moves 0.5 Phantom_Hoover into the Atlantic, and captures fizzie's upper body with 0.5 Phantom_Hoover. <fizzie> Glurk.
09:06:36 <HackEgo> 124) <alise> I love logic, especially the part where it makes no sense.
09:06:37 <HackEgo> 444) <itidus20> anyway, notational systems are a function of the euclidean plane
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10:17:23 <HackEgo> 998) <itidus21> :D :D oh man.. i wonder if they ever made chess variants based off of animes
10:17:26 <HackEgo> 816) <olsner> fungot: what's your view on angels and other otherworldly beings? <fungot> olsner: well i'm mentioning theoretical image to be dumped in rain forests of laukaa.
10:17:36 <HackEgo> 981) <Bike> i feel like i should say "sexual dimorphism" winkingly and then transmute myself into a horrid fleshbeast
10:17:42 <HackEgo> 657) <shachaf> fizzie: What kind of speech recognition do you do? <shachaf> If you only need to recognize famous speeches, like Churchill or something, it should be pretty easy.
10:17:58 <HackEgo> 155) <Gregor> elliott: My university has two Poultry Science buildings. <Gregor> Two!
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10:56:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[GERMAN]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43340&oldid=41445 * Rdebath * (+47) TBS member
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11:54:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Unibrain]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43341 * Rdebath * (+4398) A groaner.
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12:13:10 <oren> crap, my computer finally crashed
12:13:42 <oren> fucking firefox
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14:20:40 <boily> helloren. you too are having problems with the firefox?
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15:35:25 <boily> I know. Wednesday is a Holiday.
15:35:31 <boily> can you Wednesday?
15:36:01 <quintopia> i can wednesday after 7, and probably after 5, depending on work.
15:36:18 <boily> good! then on va mercredir ça!
15:36:28 <boily> (we'll wednesday.)
15:36:47 <boily> (it's expliciter in French that a noun is verbed. English lacks purposeful inflections.)
15:37:10 <boily> at least Civ 5. what do you recommend?
15:37:30 <boily> (I wonder if I can get some CoD running on linux...)
15:37:58 <quintopia> something co-op. does borderlands 2 linux?
15:38:14 <quintopia> (i say borderlands 2 because it is humble bundle)
15:40:13 <boily> no, only windows and mac (and steamplay?)
15:42:03 <quintopia> i also have battleblock theater, contagion, damned, don't starve together, FORCED, hero siege, PAYDAY: the heist, and sanctum. I know these are all co-op, but I don't know which are linux
15:42:21 <quintopia> i should create a new category for "linux"
15:43:46 <quintopia> boily: you should subscribe cedega!
15:44:19 <boily> there is such a thing as cedega.
15:45:13 <boily> uh... according to wikipédia, there was such a thing as cedega.
15:47:11 <quintopia> well, steam says battleblock theater and hero siege and borderlands 2 all run on sufficiently good linuces
15:47:39 <quintopia> borderlands 2 runs on ubuntu 14.04
15:49:58 <boily> got 15.04 on both machines here. it'll do.
15:52:58 <quintopia> https://www.humblebundle.com/ $1 gets you borderlands2 for linux, $7 gets you all its DLC (except the 2 biggest/most recent)
15:53:35 <quintopia> (in the form of steam keys probably)
15:55:43 <boily> now, on to lunch. I'm hungry.
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17:06:47 <Sgeo> "Sputnik 1 burned up on 4 January 1958, as it fell from orbit upon reentering Earth's atmosphere, after travelling about 70 million km (43.5 million miles) and spending 3 months in orbit.[9]"
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17:07:02 <Sgeo> Aww, it would have been fun if the first artificial sattelite was still up there
17:08:25 <pikhq> That requires active orbit maintenance.
17:08:39 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
17:10:22 <pikhq> Especially for near-earth orbits, which still experience atmospheric drag.
17:13:47 <Sgeo> Is there a point at which no active orbit maintenance is needed?
17:13:53 <Sgeo> Like, at some altitude?
17:14:02 <Sgeo> The moon doesn't need to be actively maintained
17:15:23 <quintopia> the main requirement is "not being too close to earth and all the trash and air around it"
17:15:50 <pikhq> Being massive helps a lot.
17:15:54 <quintopia> of course, it is precisely because of the moon that this becomes difficult
17:16:13 <pikhq> Geosynchronous orbits need active maintenance because of tidal effects from the moon.
17:19:55 <quintopia> L4 and L5 are also nice, but farther away
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17:43:25 <oren> You could snag an asteroid for some heft, then it would not need mush maintenance, being large enough
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18:05:43 <boily> http://www.scp-wiki.net/scp-120
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18:32:31 <boily> it's the teleporting kiddy pool. you may end up at some random L* point with it.
18:32:51 <boily> (I ought to redeadkey this layout one day...)
18:37:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lisacintosh * New user account
18:37:51 <quintopia> ah yes the dead pool. i have just finished prandizing
18:38:24 <quintopia> do you live in a place where viet food is the easiest to get?
18:39:49 <boily> yes. you can get your fix any day of the week, anywhere you want.
18:40:02 <boily> (although they tend to be closed on Tuesday for some mysterious reasone.)
18:41:20 <quintopia> (google the etymology of "preprandial")
18:43:32 <HackEgo> tmyk the more overfilled your brain gets.
18:43:58 <quintopia> ah. i was guessing "that much you knew" for some reason
18:45:33 * boily scratches his head. “yylmt???ʼn
18:45:51 <boily> And Knowing Is Half The Battle.
18:46:01 <boily> but yours' quite good too.
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19:00:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43342&oldid=42761 * Lisacintosh * (+4165)
19:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Esolang:Sandbox]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43343&oldid=43342 * Lisacintosh * (-4165) Undo revision 43342 by [[Special:Contributions/Lisacintosh|Lisacintosh]] ([[User talk:Lisacintosh|talk]])
19:03:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SMIL]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43344 * Lisacintosh * (+4331) Created page with "SMIL (Structured and Methodic and Innovative Language) is a metadata ASCII-smileys based language. Data are only input by command line, the program just contains instructions...."
19:04:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43345&oldid=43320 * Lisacintosh * (+11) Add SMIL lang
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19:18:30 <zzo38> I think they did make chess variants based off of anime
19:22:10 <oren> I have invented a useful shell utility. Suppose you want to execute a command on a file in this directory, but you're not sure which file or the file's name.
19:23:19 <oren> With my new program 'choose' you can type 'choose nano' and then it will give an interactive display of a list of files in the current directory, from which you can choose the file you want
19:23:39 <oren> at which point it will exec 'nano filename'
19:24:34 <boily> can you filter/order by relevance, mime types and recently used?
19:25:05 <oren> no, not yet. I do plan on adding filters though
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19:29:09 * boily interpretative dances a hellørjan
19:30:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: isn't that what the select builtin in bash does?
19:30:54 <oren> https://gist.github.com/orenwatson/99b38d7fb2813674d530
19:31:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: select f in ./*; do nano "$f"; break; done
19:31:35 <b_jonas> oerjan: or a bit more if you want to get nano's exit code back
19:32:24 <boily> we should merge oren, oerjan and olsner together to reduce ambiguïty hth
19:32:28 <b_jonas> oren: choose(){ select f in ./*; do "$@" "$f"; break; done; }
19:33:30 <oren> That's similar, but it doesn't show all the files or allow you to scroll if there are too many on screen
19:33:30 <Sgeo> If I'm not interested in making anything productive, but hoping it will help me learn how CPUs work, should I learn x86 assembly or x64 assembly or what?
19:34:32 <Sgeo> I understand the basics of C I think
19:34:33 <b_jonas> C is designed basically so it can do what CPUs can do
19:34:53 <b_jonas> Sgeo: is your goal learning what _modern_ CPUs can do?
19:34:55 <boily> learn C/C++, buy an arduino, profit!
19:35:04 <b_jonas> as opposed to thirty year old cpus?
19:35:06 <Sgeo> b_jonas, not sure
19:35:27 <b_jonas> dunno, I'm just asking about your goals
19:35:38 <oren> x86 is a bit complex for a CPU, if you want to know the basics, why not learn 6502 instead? It allows you to mod NES games!
19:36:09 <b_jonas> my goal, in particular, is to learn how to use modern cpus efficiently
19:36:20 <b_jonas> that entails learning some things about how they work, but not everything
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19:36:47 <Sgeo> My goal is to get a better understanding of what exactly goes on
19:37:09 <oerjonas> yeah, I just wanted to do more
19:37:09 <Sgeo> I also have a goal of learning reverse engineering, but I'm not sure how connected that is
19:37:31 <oerjonas> I just wanted to have more confusable nicks
19:38:41 <oren> Then it depends what you are trying to reverse engineer. reverse engineering tends to involve at least a little machine code rather than assembler
19:39:26 <oerjan> i banned oer* before, i can do it again hth
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19:40:17 <oerjan> actually i think i muted it
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19:40:34 <oerjonas> oerjan: yeah. then I'd nick to orjonas or something
19:40:49 <oerjonas> oerjan: yeah. then I'd nick to orjonas or something
19:40:54 -!- oern has changed nick to oreo.
19:41:06 <oerjonas> does helloily count as another o-guy?
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19:42:09 <boily> oerjonas: I don't think so... I'm more of a b_joily guy.
19:45:10 <boily> I believe the chännel may be a little bit misbalanced hth
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19:45:59 <boily> many Canadians, many Scandinavians, many o* people.
19:46:23 <olsner> boily: we are one, we just present ourself as several IRC users
19:46:50 <oren> one of us one of us, gooble gobble
19:47:02 <oerjonas> nah, I don't think the unbalances are statistically significant
19:47:42 <oerjonas> well, the unbalances you mentioned at least
19:47:55 <oerjonas> the channel may have a lot of crazy esolangers or
19:49:36 <oerjonas> or you could say the channel isn't more unbalanced than <insert favourite gaming example here>
19:50:58 * boily inserts a hot dog into the favourite gaming example
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20:15:36 <zzo38> I know x86 (especially the modern one) is too complicated, 6502 is better you can not only to modify NES game but you can make up your own NES/Famicom game too
20:21:30 <fizzie> MIPS is the classic architecture for teaching computer architecture and CPU design etc., although I'm not entirely sure why.
20:21:41 <fizzie> Perhaps just tradition.
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20:28:06 <Sgeo> I like complexity, it means I can keep reading more without getting bored
20:31:58 <zzo38> NMOS 6502 also has several unofficial opcodes though, some of them can be useful
20:34:49 <zzo38> Famizork currently uses ARR twice, ANC 22 times, AXS three times, LAX ten times, SAX once, and DCP once.
20:37:00 <zzo38> As well as unofficial NOPs to set breakpoints
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21:04:02 <fizzie> oerjan: I was kind of not so well, and then on vacation in Scotland.
21:04:56 <fizzie> oerjan: Also there was no obvious "canary.orig" file to remove, although I got these vague recollections of maybe making canary a directory causing some breakage like this earlier. I'll try to have a look at *some* point.
21:05:28 <int-e> fnordbot: hey there
21:05:28 <fnordbot> int-e: with you you can last for up to thirty as well, i think...?" " unfortunately, in a desperate that any man who can," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," shouted ford. " i don't want to go to work at," and he turned. " but," he added, " i'l
21:06:03 * boily mistrusts fnordbot
21:06:03 <fnordbot> boily: counterpoint the..." the fact that he had become. what mr prosser, " hadn't even begun to speculate," he continued, " you just let the machines began to think that the chances of getting picked. all in all it was extremely fortunate that at all, ford?" " well you see," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fai
21:06:12 <boily> fnordbot: you aren't fungot.
21:06:13 <oerjan> fizzie: hm there was someone claiming that the canary.orig directory would exist if the repository had _ever_ had a canary directory with files in it.
21:06:13 <fnordbot> boily: of work on ford at all. " i think you ought to be telling us?" ford looked at a piece. within a few short vog years every last vogon had migrated to the megabrantis cluster, the political economy. deep in the heart of a dark screen, just under five years, but you will when i was a kid you just saved a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched,", he said, " you can't keep us out!" " what the hell am, brain
21:06:31 <int-e> I don't have fizzie's language models
21:06:57 <fizzie> I did put fungot online too.
21:06:57 <int-e> so yeah, it's just a poor substitute
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21:07:04 * boily prods fnordbot. prod prod prod.
21:07:05 <fizzie> But it did drop off *again*.
21:07:05 <fnordbot> boily: pour spirit into a lifestyle," a voice said " i seem to be having tremendous difficulty in finding the floor. " what," said trillian, " but those of finely calculated the cumulative effect is this? " who said that?" " try to explain to her to know that in to the reader's digest. glad you could make it a paying proposition. ford would have to go. " i don't want to go to work at," and he turned. " but," he added, " i'll ha
21:07:14 <oerjan> boily: i think fnordbot may secretly be a vogon. prepare to be evaporated.
21:07:14 <fnordbot> oerjan: which he had souped up into a pretty neat." the narrower streets he would often gatecrash university of maximegalon, who pursued a brilliant marble-sanded beaches of santraginus v, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it. " yeah," he said to a small lump of green and blue. " so," said ford, " the vogons run the ship, the dentrassis. he would have a nice relaxed day, do you want to go to work at," and he t
21:08:13 <boily> oerjan: I wouldn't like being evaporated. it sounds nasty.
21:08:18 * boily continues prodding fnordbot
21:08:19 <fnordbot> boily: much to themselves, who needs a big wide sounding name like... it's pretty low," continued ford. pretty crazy, zaphod," he was saying, " magrathea is a myth, a fairy story, it's what parents tell their kids at school nicknamed him ix, which in the language. to tremendous difficulty in finding the floor. " what," said trillian, " but those of finely calculated the cumulative effect is this? " the universe to it," he shout
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21:08:35 <boily> fungot: can you slay fnordbot?
21:08:36 <fnordbot> boily: with at least," he added, " i'll have you hung, huge, heavy, steady in the sky a huge green catalogue to keep us out!" " what the hell am, brain the size of a planet and they ask me to take you to the bridge at that, i can tell." " the mice were furious." " try to explain to her to know that in to the reader's digest. glad you could make it a paying proposition.," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at
21:08:36 <fungot> boily: and wait 10 min for the generic class names and what was the fnord pretty good compared to my fnord above)
21:09:16 <int-e> too lazy to find ssh key... feel free to kick fnordbot
21:09:16 <fnordbot> int-e:, then a vast crescent sliced into the glass, every sheet of board." ( " a voice from ancient magrathea! " in a few seconds," he continued, " you just let the machines began to think that the chances of getting picked. a towel, it says, " is big. you must come with me?" said ford, " he was a hell of a lot. " so all i have to do in order to find this wretched,", he said at last, " i don't know," said the vogon guard. " er,
21:09:20 <boily> fnordbot: prepare to be genericified, you vaporating vogon!
21:09:20 <fnordbot> boily: over a billion and six people in the galaxy, a device which made this starship, one day, a student at the university of maximegalon, who pursued a brilliant marble-sanded beaches of santraginus v, inhaling the heady sea vapours; you can sleep under it. " yeah," he shouted to the guard, " not really. " we had a look at this," said slartibartfast, " that was one of mine,", he said, " you can't keep us out!" " what the hell
21:09:30 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
21:11:06 <coppro> it messes with my brain
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21:31:16 <boily> that illusion with the shaded checkerboard and stuff?
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01:54:28 <shachaf> FireFly: Why does TIS-100 make my cursor blink?
01:55:32 <FireFly> I guess in the 80s you didn't get to choose, so
01:59:43 <shachaf> My mouse cursor is blinking.
01:59:48 <shachaf> Even when I switch focus away from the game.
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04:14:30 <tswett> So I wonder if you could write an operating system kernel in Rust.
04:14:54 <tswett> There are two primary things I'm worried about.
04:15:05 <tswett> First, I don't know if it's feasible to write Rust code that doesn't make any system calls.
04:15:19 <tswett> A kernel doesn't get to make system calls. Not allowed.
04:15:46 <tswett> Second, I don't know how to get the compiler to produce output in the correct format.
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05:31:44 <HackEgo> newsham: gazspaczo iz a hungarian szoup, tradizsonally szerved cold for hot szummer dayz
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06:10:57 <Sgeo> "Theorem 1. For any conventional third-generation computer, an effective VMM may be constructed if the set of sensitive instructions for that computer is a subset of the set of privileged instructions.
06:11:10 <Sgeo> That seems like the sort of thing that would be difficult to add retroactively
06:14:00 <Sgeo> I don't know what I was expecting. A dead dove, maybe.
06:15:02 <Sgeo> > magic undefined
06:15:17 <myname> obviously, t is always int?
06:15:43 <Sgeo> Or x -> Int or x -> y -> Int
06:15:47 <lambdabot> Perhaps you intended to use TemplateHaskell
06:15:48 <lambdabot> In the Template Haskell quotation 'a
06:17:31 <lambdabot> No instance for (Slack Char) arising from a use of ‘magic’
06:18:16 <Sgeo> :t [1::Int,magic]
06:18:17 <lambdabot> No instance for (Slack Int) arising from a use of ‘magic’
06:18:17 <lambdabot> In the expression: [1 :: Int, magic]
06:18:21 <Sgeo> :t [1::Integer,magic]
06:18:29 <myname> > (magic 1) `mod` (magic 1 2 3)
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07:08:44 <Jafet> > printf "%d" (magic 'A')
07:08:46 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M854909516733692471611434’
07:08:46 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
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09:15:16 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Slack’
09:15:16 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant variable ‘slack’ (line 152)
09:15:51 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘Slack Integer’ has kind ‘Constraint’
09:15:51 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: Slack Integer
09:15:51 <lambdabot> In the expression: (5 :: Slack Integer)
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12:48:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LegionMammal978 * New user account
12:51:46 * oerjan looks at new wiki nick suspiciously
12:54:54 <mroman_> Rasterfahndung - computer-aided search for wanted persons whereby the data of a large number of people are checked against existing data in a database
12:55:01 <mroman_> that's how leo translates Rasterfahndung
12:56:09 * oerjan has no idea of context
12:56:38 <oerjan> de.wikipedia to the rescue
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12:59:34 <mroman_> "dragnet investigation" seems to be another translation
13:01:03 <mroman_> "A dragnet is any system of coordinated measures for apprehending criminals or suspects; including road barricades and traffic stops, widespread DNA tests, and general increased police alertness."
13:01:25 <mroman_> although Rasterfahndung doesn't really involve road blocks or the like
13:01:31 <oerjan> i'm not sure whether ... right
13:01:36 <oerjan> it seemed more limited.
13:01:48 <mroman_> we use it for computer-assisted searching through databases
13:02:00 * oerjan also doesn't have the stamina to read that much in german.
13:02:26 <mroman_> You have a huge database of people
13:02:26 <oerjan> german word of the year in 1980
13:02:45 <mroman_> and you are looking for a person that has certain traits (like uhm scar over left eye)
13:02:52 <mroman_> and you check that against this huge database of people
13:04:02 <mroman_> You only have a "profile" of the criminal
13:04:06 <mroman_> which is usually very vague
13:06:25 <mroman_> the controversy is of course, that by doing that you suspect every person in that database to be a criminal
13:06:48 <mroman_> which is contrary to presumption of innocence
13:07:34 <mroman_> every person that comes out of this search is a "suspect until proven that he's innocent"
13:08:24 <mroman_> even though you have no indication to suspect him except that he's 50-60, recently immigrated from russia and owns a business
13:09:58 <mroman_> I don't fully get that, though.
13:11:05 <mroman_> I'm not really pro surveillance of the public though
13:13:21 <mroman_> but collecting every persons DNA at birth has some advantages :)
13:14:00 <Jafet> Indeed. You can charge for health insurance much more accurately.
13:14:37 <mroman_> Well, that would be against what they are for.
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13:15:05 <mroman_> It's not your fault that you have a higher likelihood of getting cancer than somebody else
13:15:09 -!- J_A_Work has quit (Quit: J_A_Work).
13:15:16 <mroman_> so making you pay more for that increased risk isn't "social".
13:16:58 <mroman_> well... it will be hard to determine what exactly is one's fault and what not
13:17:28 <mroman_> but the social system works by "healthy people" paying for "sick people"
13:17:42 <mroman_> not "healthy people" paying for themselves and "sick peopel" paying for themselves
13:18:10 <mroman_> given that people that drink and smoke don't have to pay more than those who don't.
13:18:31 <mroman_> Falling down the stairs drunk is technically your fault, so why do I have to pay for that?
13:18:55 <mroman_> The effects of alcohol are well known and despite this knowledge you chose to drink
13:19:09 * oerjan would have expected smokers to pay more, these days.
13:19:12 <mroman_> which indicates that you were ok taking the risks and therefore have a higher responsibility.
13:19:29 <oerjan> no idea if they do, i'm sitting safely here in single payer country
13:20:19 <mroman_> Going on a vandalism streak because their favorite ice hockey team lost in a game
13:20:33 <mroman_> like that would be in any way a.) change the outcome b.) make sense c.) do good
13:21:17 <mroman_> Yet everybody wonders why there's war going on in the world.
13:21:52 <oerjan> hm do teams get punished for that sort of thing? i recall racist remarks by supporters at football matches tends to
13:22:06 <oerjan> but maybe not outside arena stuff
13:22:13 <mroman_> They get punished for it sometimes, yes.
13:22:42 <mroman_> Those are matches that are played without any audience.
13:23:04 <mroman_> but usually the teams/clubs deny responsibility
13:23:23 <mroman_> which makes sense somehow because it's not really their fault that some people do stupid things after a match.
13:23:25 <oerjan> googling ghost match seemed to turn up something else, something about gambling fraud
13:23:41 <mroman_> It's called Geisterspiel and I took the liberty to translate it as "ghost match"
13:24:12 <mroman_> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behind_closed_doors_%28sport%29
13:24:25 <mroman_> (https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geisterspiel)
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13:25:09 <oerjan> <mroman_> Yet everybody wonders why there's war going on in the world. <-- you know, if we could make _only_ the stupid people fight...
13:26:30 <mroman_> Well, if someone stupid attacks you your choices are pretty limited
13:27:00 <oerjan> well what i mean is, the stupid people usually force a lot of others to fight for them.
13:27:09 <mroman_> although attacking someone to steal resources isn't technically stupid
13:27:47 <mroman_> unless you count some forms of selfishness as stupid
13:27:53 <oerjan> stupid in the socratic sense
13:28:44 <mroman_> I always thought people that take the bible literally are somewhat stupid
13:28:54 <mroman_> but now I'm reading a book about the history and background of the bible
13:28:54 <oerjan> well the point of military alliances is pretty much make sure that attacking you _is_ stupid, i guess.
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13:29:26 <mroman_> It's a good strategy to scare people out of attacking you
13:29:59 <mroman_> That's what nukes are for I guess.
13:30:56 <mroman_> You could just say "Well, if you attack me I'll release this virus into the wild. It'll do a lot of damage to other countries as well but that's on you!"
13:32:14 <mroman_> oerjan: and to secure resources.
13:32:15 <oerjan> as usual, the problem is the people crazy enough to do it anyway
13:32:35 <mroman_> Such as access to oil or so
13:33:15 <mroman_> I'm not sure why China protects North-Korea
13:33:43 <mroman_> I guess they are trading certain things that benefit both
13:34:05 <mroman_> or maybe it's just historic.
13:35:09 <mroman_> hm. Seems they use it for military purposes as well
13:35:17 <mroman_> since South Korea and the US go hand in hand.
13:35:32 <oerjan> i thought the general assumption was "because if it collapses, things will get really ugly across the border"
13:36:08 <oerjan> also, china has a lot of trade with south korea these days, so that border too
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13:36:31 <oerjan> basically, not even south korea wants north korea to collapse these days
13:36:48 <mroman_> That would financially ruin them.
13:37:40 <mroman_> either that or it will become a humanitarian disaster
13:38:21 <mroman_> It might actually be better for SK if NK stays independent, poor and peaceful
13:38:53 <oerjan> i don't see why the "poor" is necessary. they could change to a more chinese model.
13:39:15 <mroman_> But if they would merge now, it would cost a ton
13:40:02 <mroman_> ideally they would become democratic and remain largeley independent but become more and more open
13:41:19 <mroman_> I think that was one of the strategies back in uhm
13:42:02 <oerjan> i think the problem is too many people in north korea have blood on their hands so a non-ugly direct transition to democracy is implausible.
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13:43:04 <oerjan> 'm also suspecting china has the same problem, to a lesser degree
13:43:49 <ais523> it's sort-of democratic, but the government gets to choose which candidates are allowed to run
13:44:12 <oerjan> doesn't count unless you have freedom of expression enough that the dirty laundry that eventually needs to be brought out, can be
13:44:21 <mroman_> there are some sort of elections
13:44:33 <oerjan> ...north korea also has elections hth
13:44:42 <mroman_> I honestly haven't really looked that much into china's politics
13:45:07 <oerjan> they even have a few tiny minority parties
13:45:32 <oerjan> both almost indinguishable from the state party, but still.
13:46:29 <mroman_> There's the Local's People Congress
13:46:33 <mroman_> which is directly elected somehow
13:46:34 <oerjan> in a direct comparison, freedom of expression is more important than democracy, i think.
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13:47:36 <mroman_> "Independent candidates are strongly discouraged and face government intervention in their campaigns." :D
13:48:02 <b_jonas> of course. we had elections all the time even way back, if you count elections where you have only once option to tick and your vote is public.
13:48:32 <oerjan> public just in case you forgot to tick, i take
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13:49:47 <b_jonas> then there's the opposite trick: elections where you can vote for anyone and you don't face retribution depending on your choice and the votes are secret, but they're so secret even the aggregate results are not public or used for any decision, the government just makes up results without counting the votes.
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13:50:53 <b_jonas> that second trick was never fashionable here though.
13:52:07 <Jafet> It helps to use a very complicated election system to disguise this scheme.
13:52:10 <quintopia> obviously the night vale electoral system is the ideal system
13:52:11 <Jafet> Oh wait, that's just democracy.
13:53:42 <quintopia> b_jonas: here in the US conttol of elections is handed over to hackers and voting machine manufacturers
13:54:30 <ais523> I like the UK's method of counting ballots
13:54:37 <ais523> it's pretty hard to interfere with
13:54:43 <quintopia> i guess they figure said hackers and manufacturers couls just as easily favor either candidate, so it all comes out in the wash
13:59:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43346&oldid=43249 * 188.238.248.144 * (+124) /* Mathematics */
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14:31:08 <mroman_> Voting can be seen as a random process
14:31:13 <mroman_> People randomly select who wins
14:31:22 <mroman_> so why not just toss a freaking coin and save millions of dollars
14:32:43 <ais523> `quote random elephant
14:32:52 <b_jonas> mroman_: it's random of course, but it's hard to determine the probabilities in any way that many people would find as satisfying or fair
14:32:59 <HackEgo> 296) <elliott> AV is better than first-past-the-post, like every voting system apart from the Random Elephant Stomping method
14:33:00 <FreeFull> Well, voting isn't meant to be purely random
14:33:15 <b_jonas> mroman_: also, there's some science fiction story about this, isn't there?
14:33:50 <ais523> b_jonas: the only fair voting mechanism known to be completely immune to tactical voting is to count all the votes, then pick a candidate with probability equal to the proportion of the votes they got
14:33:50 <mroman_> There's usually around 50:50 chance
14:34:24 <ais523> I think some other functions of the number of votes work as well as identity, but identity's the easiest to prove
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14:34:51 <mroman_> FreeFull: It is to an observer, or isn't it.
14:35:08 <mroman_> but for an outside obverser it's random-ish.
14:35:50 <b_jonas> ais523: it gets more complicated when you want to elect not one candidate, but a whole parliment of them
14:36:05 <mroman_> The question though remains if it would matter much if it *were* random
14:36:14 <ais523> b_jonas: I actually came up with a really good voting method for that
14:36:26 <ais523> you get each candidate to choose a location in the country at which they'll stand (just a single point)
14:36:39 <ais523> candidates can form parties if they wish
14:36:39 <mroman_> Maybe I'm just too much of an existential nihilist.
14:36:46 <ais523> people vote for parties
14:37:00 <b_jonas> mroman_: found it, the story is "Franchise" by Isaac Asimov
14:37:05 <b_jonas> http://www.asimovreviews.net/Stories/Story088.html
14:37:19 <FreeFull> mroman_: Well, if it is going to be random, you need to choose the candidates randomly from the populationtoo
14:37:28 <ais523> then you calculate a number n of votes that each seat is "worth" such that if a party gets jn votes, it gets j seats in parliament; n is as low as possible without exceeding parliament's capacity
14:37:36 <mroman_> b_jonas: Sounds like a cool plot.
14:37:45 <ais523> and the candidates you pick from each party are determined by where their highest concentrations of votes were
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14:37:53 <ais523> (haven't worked out the details of that)
14:38:21 <mroman_> FreeFull: people vote for candidates
14:38:34 <mroman_> but the machine determines the winner randomly from the candidates
14:38:50 <mroman_> or the congress/parliament recommends candidates
14:38:54 <b_jonas> ais523: don't you have to determine goals too, as well as a method?
14:39:03 <mroman_> congress/parliament recommending candidates is probably cheaper
14:39:03 <ais523> then you form constituencies such that each elected member has their own consitutency, and constituencies from the same party don't overlap but from different parties do; each party's constituencies collectively cover the whole country
14:39:10 <FreeFull> mroman_: That could lead to disastrous results
14:39:19 <FreeFull> What if someone like Nigel Farage becomes the head of government
14:39:27 <ais523> say you vote in an election, you might even vote for the winning side, but a candidate from the losing side wins your constituency
14:39:47 <FreeFull> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigel_Farage
14:39:53 <mauris> mroman_: UK independence party guy
14:40:02 <ais523> in any system where each constituency has only one voter, I can contact my MP and complain about a law that's going through
14:40:16 <ais523> and they can't do anything about it because they're on the opposition and so were going to vote against anyway
14:40:52 <FreeFull> If you choose candidates from the population at random, you have a smaller chance of someone like Nigel Farage getting into a position of power
14:41:13 <mroman_> but some random guy isn't a good politician
14:41:25 <mroman_> Choosing one randomly from a congress/parliament makes more sense
14:41:44 <mroman_> Ideally the chosen person doesn't have "full power"
14:41:53 <b_jonas> FreeFull: that totally sounds like http://www.xkcd.com/977/ "You think we wouldn't have so many problems if we'd just elect _normal_ people to Congress instead of Politicians."
14:42:07 <mroman_> people vote people into congress
14:42:20 <mroman_> then you select randomly who's the president
14:43:00 <mroman_> but the president has 20 votes
14:43:05 <mroman_> so in total there are 69 votes
14:43:41 <mroman_> I like the swiss system anyway
14:43:58 <b_jonas> if you only elect 50 people, and of those, only 10 actually show up in the parliment most days, then the president can do anything
14:44:00 <mroman_> people vote people that vote for the Bundesrat and the President
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14:45:29 <FreeFull> Don't the Swiss have a referendum for everything that's actually important?
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14:46:29 <mroman_> There's the National- and Ständerat which vote for the 7 Bundesräte
14:46:56 <mroman_> and the Räte also make laws and stuff
14:47:11 <mroman_> but you can interveine with referendums if necessary
14:47:28 <mroman_> They can do stuff on their own as long as they don't mess up too much
14:47:36 <mroman_> and if they do you have some way of intervention
14:48:01 <mroman_> and if you want to change something you can use the Volksinitiative
14:48:56 <mroman_> That's why I think it's a near-perfect system as far as democracy goes
14:49:05 <mroman_> it's very democratic but not overly democratic
14:49:22 <mroman_> (overly democratic meaning people have to vote for everything, which is completely unpractical)
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14:50:22 <mroman_> However, the downside of this system is of course, that you can vote for things like "we want no foreigners"
14:50:26 <mroman_> and if it passes, that's the way it is
14:50:43 <mroman_> democracy doesn't imply humanity.
14:51:11 <mroman_> I hate when people think that.
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14:53:55 <FreeFull> mroman_: Unfortunately, we don't have a machine that spews out perfect morally-good dictators
14:54:30 <mroman_> I'd just shoot everybody who's not on my side.
14:54:43 <mroman_> Then all votes will be correct.
14:55:00 <mroman_> No, obviously I wouldn't shoot everybody who's not on my side
14:55:16 <mroman_> Then the US would think I oppress my people
14:55:20 <mroman_> and that it's an unfair system
14:55:49 <mroman_> The idea is to be a "social dictator"
14:56:05 <mroman_> there are some ground-rules like uhm "religions have to live together"
14:56:12 <mroman_> and everybody who has a problem with that will be shot.
14:56:38 <mroman_> also every criminal will be shot.
14:56:51 <mroman_> Don't want criminals in my social country.
14:57:28 <mroman_> If you vandalise public property after an ice hockey match you will definitely be shot
14:57:48 <mroman_> If you beat up a random person you'll be shot
14:58:06 <mroman_> I call it "Peace by Force"
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14:59:03 <mroman_> The problem is - in general - that a single person can do a lot of harm to lots of other persons.
14:59:10 <mroman_> Like if you live in a flat with flat mates
14:59:36 <mroman_> if 29 of the people you live with always clean up their dirt but one makes everything dirty on purpose
14:59:42 <mroman_> the whole flat-experience will suck
15:00:10 <mroman_> and there's no solution to that problem other than to get rid of that person who doesn't cooperate
15:00:55 <mroman_> and that's really "a truth".
15:01:29 <mroman_> The power of someone not cooperating is much higher than the power of others.
15:02:07 <mroman_> Well... not fails but is flawed the way it has to be
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15:07:59 <MDude> But there, you have 29 people who can clean up dirt, but only clean their own.
15:08:00 <MDude> The only reason they don't clean up the one's guy's dirt just to have a cleaner flat to live in is that they see this as attracting freeloaders.
15:09:05 <MDude> Which it does, but still I think it should be taken into consideration as a factor.
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15:10:35 <MDude> The thing with having such harsh laws is that it gives enforcers and loxal beurocrats a lot of power to get people killed.
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15:15:02 <hppavilion1> I'm trying to figure out how to make an esoteric Befunge-style Markup language
15:15:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Ttml]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43347&oldid=41901 * 107.77.85.48 * (+31) EsoMULang Category
15:18:56 <hppavilion1> I managed to make a Turing-complete Markup Languag
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15:27:58 <mroman_> but the fact is still, that one person can significantly ruin the other 29 people's live
15:28:02 <mroman_> and he can do so very easily
15:28:29 <mroman_> or somebody who rapes one person a month
15:28:39 <mroman_> he can make a lot of people's live worse
15:29:02 <mroman_> one single person can have a much higher negativ impact than many people can have a positive impact.
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16:14:12 <MDude> Yeah, bit I don't see how a dictator is any better at solving that problem than mob rule.
16:15:22 <MDude> Plus there's other ways in which it takes only one person to make a positive impact.
16:16:51 <b_jonas> a dictatorship would work, it's just hard to figure out who should be the dictator that would make it work
16:17:03 <b_jonas> it won't work for most people chosen as a dictator
16:19:00 <MDude> It could work, but I don't see how it'd be ideal.
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16:50:46 <Jafet> Long-standing dictatorships, such as Singapore.
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16:52:49 <coppro> dictatorships are easy
16:52:54 <coppro> like Vetinari x Vimes. done
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16:56:56 <FreeFull> We don't have a Vetinari or Vimes
16:58:52 <b_jonas> FreeFull: how do you know? Vimes has worked on an important mission in incognito at least once.
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18:34:55 <HackEgo> olist 992: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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21:43:17 <tswett> All right, time to start working on this operating system.
21:43:34 <tswett> Written, of course, in Rust.
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21:48:26 <tswett> There, I have a file called libkernel.so.
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22:11:02 * oerjan leaves shachaf to ponder
22:11:17 <shachaf> presumably it means something like shachaf are well
22:11:23 <shachaf> but what do wells have to do with it
22:11:35 <oerjan> you have to dig deeper hth
22:12:07 <shachaf> @brain are you pondering what i'm pondering?
22:12:07 <lambdabot> What can I do for fun, Pinky? That's it! I'll send several
22:12:07 <lambdabot> bills to Senate for ratification, then veto them all!
22:12:27 <shachaf> @pinky are you pondering what i'm pondering?
22:12:27 <lambdabot> I think so, Brain, but don't you need a swimming pool to play Marco Polo?
22:14:43 <oerjan> it's a uaetnamtrop hth
22:15:46 <shachaf> the contortions you're observing are oerjan trying to be helpful without actually giving a straight answer
22:16:18 <shachaf> or maybe trying to give a straight answer without actually being helpful
22:16:33 <shachaf> anyway what happened to saying hi
22:16:48 <oerjan> shachaf: generally in our channel at least one letter is shared between the words hth
22:17:04 <oerjan> shachaf: saying hi is so 2013
22:17:19 <shachaf> oerjan: yes yes i understood
22:17:31 <shachaf> that word usually means the opposite of hi
22:17:38 <shachaf> are you hinting that i should leave or that you're leaving
22:17:45 <oerjan> which is why it's written backwards hth
22:18:48 <shachaf> boily: can you mapole some sense into oerjan twh
22:18:55 <oerjan> just watch the red dwarf "backwards" episode, that should make everything clear hth
22:19:58 <oerjan> experience shows that beating sense into me only works very temporarily hth
22:20:28 <oerjan> (this also applies to admonitions)
22:22:56 <boily> shachaf: don't mind if I do.
22:23:38 * oerjan temporarily turns into an absolute jerk
22:24:01 * boily mapole mapole mapole. "ABORT! ABORT!"
22:24:19 <oerjan> a mapole double negation
22:24:36 <oerjan> basically, reversing the mapolarity
22:25:17 <shachaf> <GUIL> I think I have it. A man talking sense to himself is no madder than a man talking nonsense not to himself. <ROS> Or just as mad. <GUIL> Or just as mad. <ROS> And he does both. <GUIL> So there are you. <ROS> Stark raving sane.
22:26:07 <oerjan> why should i take advice from dead people tmns
22:26:38 <oerjan> `learn tmns makes no sense.
22:26:38 <shachaf> to be distinguished from tmnh, that might not help
22:26:41 <HackEgo> Learned 'tmn': tmns makes no sense.
22:28:20 <oerjan> `learn tmnh stands for teenage mutant ninja hths.
22:28:22 <HackEgo> Learned 'tmnh': tmnh stands for teenage mutant ninja hths.
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22:28:38 <zzo38> You should fix `learn command don't remove the "s" it can cause problems
22:29:20 <oerjan> zzo38: no it's a feature so you can look up either singular or plural.
22:30:12 <zzo38> That isn't even the way to do plurals though, it is oversimply, and just because end with "s" doesn't make it a plural either
22:30:36 <oerjan> zzo38: the problem is there is no regular rule in more complicated cases
22:30:54 <zzo38> Yes, you have to do it manually instead
22:30:55 <shachaf> what if everyone just used le/rn
22:30:57 <oerjan> zzo38: it's a heuristic rule, most of the time it works right.
22:31:16 <oerjan> sometimes it doesn't, but that would be the case the other way too.
22:31:28 <zzo38> But there is a more complicated algorithm that work better to convert singular to plurals; other way around don't work so well at all
22:32:23 <oerjan> but then we'd have to rename all the wisdoms.
22:32:25 <zzo38> Even with a database you won't be able to tell if the word is already in plural format or not, and if so, what the proper singular form is.
22:32:36 <oerjan> and it would break for uncountable nouns.
22:33:03 <oerjan> also it's not meant to be perfect.
22:33:13 <boily> fungot should be able to tell us if a word is singular, dual or plural.
22:33:28 <boily> just my luck. Sir Fungellot is still MIA...
22:33:50 <oerjan> basically, `learn attempts to reduce the chance i need to fix up other people's mistakes.
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22:53:23 <tswett> I'm just gonna, like, assume that rustc is producing code that can run on bare metal.
22:54:40 <oerjan> it might not necessarily be good for the metal.
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23:53:52 <tswett> All right. I have a feeling that generally you can't or shouldn't use a linker on .so files.
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00:09:46 <tswett> Arright, now rustc is giving me a .a file instead of a .so file.
00:10:36 <tswett> But the linker complains that it can't find the boot_main symbol, and sure enough, there's no boot_main symbol inside the kernel.o in the .a file.
00:19:05 <tswett> Wooooo. I think I probably got it to find boot_main, because now it's outputting too many error messages to fit in my backscroll.
00:38:36 <HackEgo> glumgot/glumgot is not a particularly bad swear word, but is still disquieting.
00:53:44 <HackEgo> flagpole/A flagpole is like a tadpole, but with a flag on top.
00:53:53 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards. The army version includes a spork, a corkscrew and a moose whistle.
00:54:15 <HackEgo> A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
00:54:22 <HackEgo> whatchamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
00:54:49 <tswett> `le/rn whatchamacallit/A whatchamacallit is like a thwackamacallit, but less painful.
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01:11:39 <HackEgo> eliot/Eliot inverted cats, then Taneb stole his inversion.
01:12:05 <shachaf> tswett: too much symmetry tdnh
01:12:52 <tswett> Well, "is like" is a symmetric relation, and "more" and "less" are inverse relations.
01:13:20 <tswett> Hm, last night I think I was thinking about... the... category of commutative monoids?
01:13:48 <tswett> For that category, the sum and the product are the same thing, right?
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01:43:54 <oren> well, that was productive day... spent half the day struggling to get a VPN to connect
01:44:56 <Wallacoloo> I spent my entire Tuesday trying to get an LED to turn on.
01:49:31 <boily> have you tried turning it off and on again?
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01:51:08 <oren> well eventually it worked, I think they may have had to reboot the other end, in California
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01:51:45 <oren> or something. Someone in California solved it, at any rate
01:58:24 <Sgeo> I saw a thing about branch prediction, what's the best thing to learn to learn about things like that
02:09:11 <zzo38> Enchanted creature gets -1/+2, can block any number of creatures, and gains "At the beginning of your upkeep, target opponent draws a card".
02:35:57 <zzo38> I read in some book recently they mentioned they could make computers that are next to each other to communicate by temperatures.
02:39:33 <Wallacoloo> zzo38: seems like there would be quite a bit of latency.
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02:50:25 <tswett> Whelp, my kernel doesn't boot yet.
02:50:38 <tswett> I can tell qemu to boot using this ISO, but it says it has no bootable media.
02:57:52 <tswett> xorriso says that it's an El Torito image.
03:01:39 <tswett> "xorriso : NOTE : Detected El-Torito boot information which currently is set to be discarded"
03:06:47 <zzo38> I don't know if the problem might have to do with extension for threading discussions? (I don't like that extension anyways and just use plain MediaWiki on my own user talk page)
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03:22:32 <Sgeo> Fun fact: Windows 95 CD is not bootable
03:22:59 <Sgeo> Fun fact: I would insert a factorial function here, but that joke is probably overplayed
03:23:07 <Wallacoloo> Sgeo: What are you supposed to do with the CD then?
03:23:25 <Sgeo> Wallacoloo, run setup.exe from an existing DOS install
03:28:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Ttml]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43348 * Zzo38 * (+127) Created page with "What is the codes of Greek, Cyrillic, math symbols? --~~~~"
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04:00:56 <shachaf> Did you solve the VPN problem in California today?
04:01:17 <pikhq> No, I'm still in St Louis.
04:01:27 <pikhq> A storm killed my cable modem.
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05:09:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43349&oldid=43339 * Esowiki201529A * (+30) /* See also */
05:14:20 <fowl> pikhq im in north county, dem nados went just south of us
05:15:25 <pikhq> fowl: And I'm in South County, where they went just north of us.
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05:26:54 <zzo38> Probably the same things done with Gentzen esolang you can also do by writing it like ordinary sequent calculus notations. But, it is also can be done other way around too.
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05:42:44 <shachaf> oerjan: i missed yesterday
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05:45:47 <shachaf> oerjan: you got away with it this year
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06:01:45 <zzo38> Because it doesn't.
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07:49:10 <Taneb> Awww, there is no fungot
08:00:17 <Taneb> Wow, I haven;t been on IRC for a while
08:00:22 <Taneb> Not since last Friday morning I think
08:01:42 <int-e> so how much have you forgotten?
08:02:25 <Taneb> How to speak italian, how to get a good night sleep, that sort of thing
08:02:31 <Taneb> Also the weather here is TOO NICE
08:02:58 <Taneb> It is 5 past nine in the morning and already 21 degrees Celsius!
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09:21:51 <mroman_> that could be a good challenge :)
09:22:04 <b_jonas> mroman_: you mean golf? we've had two or three golfs for that
09:24:58 <Taneb> Is "delete" a reserved word in Java?
09:38:30 <mroman_> const and goto are reserved words
09:38:50 <mroman_> assert is not a reserved word in early java versions but is in current version
09:38:57 <b_jonas> "delete" is a reserved word in C++, "del" is a reserved word in python, and "delete" is a builtin function in perl.
09:39:30 <mroman_> Early java versions didn't have enum as well
09:39:50 <b_jonas> but the "delete" stuff is very tricky, exactly because of what http://magiccards.info/uh/en/10.html demonstrates
09:40:24 <b_jonas> it's a word you need very often, for multiple contexts. there's two or three good synonyms: "delete", "remove", "erase", but even that's not enough
09:40:59 <Taneb> Unfortunately, it is a reserved word in Thrift, which I am using to generate Java :(
09:41:02 <b_jonas> so C++ has sort of ran out of them and is now using "remove" for I think two different things, "erase" for two different things, and "delete" for one thing
09:41:52 <b_jonas> actually, maybe "remove" for three different things
09:43:10 <b_jonas> they're also using "clog" for two things but that's not because they've run out of names, but an accident of history, with the two being invented separately and later getting into one language
09:43:19 <b_jonas> and it's now too late to change either
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10:25:58 <HackEgo> [U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R]
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10:26:09 <HackEgo> [U+006E LATIN SMALL LETTER N] [U+0052 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER R]
10:38:39 <Taneb> I... actually don't know what I was doing wrong
10:38:53 <Taneb> A find tool was breaking on the sequence nR until it wasn't
11:09:10 <boily> meanwhile, CAO is down. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
11:09:58 <Taneb> (Ctrl Alt Oxygen? Cards Against O'Reilly?)
11:10:14 <boily> Crawl Akrasiac Org.
11:10:33 <boily> the North American server for DCSS.
11:10:47 <boily> Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup.
11:14:25 <HackEgo> boredom/A boredom is like a kingdom, except ruled by a bore. They don't tend to last very long before people revolt.
11:17:30 <int-e> wait, what's happening to the encoding there?
11:21:39 <boily> hmm... I believe ‘$1?’ is special-cased.
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11:54:44 <b_jonas> argh, I'm trying to figure out a sane way to write this code
11:54:58 <Taneb> b_jonas, what language
11:55:04 <b_jonas> a way that won't trip me up later with mysterious undebuggable errors
11:55:15 <Taneb> b_jonas, what code?
11:55:19 <b_jonas> I know what I want, I just have to get the basics right
11:55:31 <b_jonas> some stupid wrapper class that abstracts some existing library into saner syntax
11:55:42 <b_jonas> only it's not just one class, but multiple classes
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12:39:36 * Taneb is making progress aaaah
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13:01:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[PokéArena]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43350&oldid=15159 * LegionMammal978 * (+20) This is an idea...
13:03:07 <b_jonas> no, more like > epsilon progress
13:03:25 <b_jonas> because of Archimedean and stuff
13:03:26 <Taneb> Incidentally, I am working with something called Epsilon
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13:21:37 <b_jonas> ok, should I do this the ugly but short way, or the more explicit but longer way?
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13:46:16 <Taneb> Right, I have accomplished another task and I do not know what to do now
13:47:43 <Taneb> Hmm, what should I have for dinner
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13:57:45 <fizzie> fungot: Why must you keep pinging the timeout?
13:58:18 <fungot> fizzie: http://www.schemers.org/ documents/ standards/ r5rs/ html/ fnord example works perfectly well in 0.57. you said: " error: too many levels of braces
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14:00:35 <mroman_> Probably for large numbers just converting them to the usual 10 digits is probably already a compression scheme for roman numerals
14:01:47 <b_jonas> on anagol, I'd always choose the shorter but uglier way
14:01:49 <Taneb> b_jonas, I think mroman_ is talking about the roman numeral things
14:02:00 <b_jonas> I don't know about whether it's on anagol
14:02:27 <mroman_> No, I was talking about "a compression" challenge
14:02:50 <mroman_> That's at least what I intended to talk about
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15:02:45 <mroman_> @tell hppavilion1 You can always talk to fungot
15:02:47 <fungot> mroman_: oh wait, does that count?). i don't
15:03:01 <mroman_> fungot: No it doesn't count. What about 'or'?
15:03:13 <fungot> mroman_: where do people get off saying such things? :) ( of course, once you know programming languages where (: and :) are language tokens? can't remember. it was accessible in movie clips too. with sp2
15:03:43 <mroman_> fungot: You really need to leak more details about 'or'.
15:04:11 <fungot> mroman_: make some proggies ( read: googled for " stwong" but the zombies said " yes yes"
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17:13:52 <zzo38> Isn't (: and :) are tokens in Kvikkalkul?
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18:33:18 <tswett> Whelp, I'm pretty sure my kernel has not started booting while I was asleep.
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18:46:26 <shachaf> fateful day a couple of days ago
18:46:29 <oerjan> thanks for remembering
18:46:52 <oerjan> shachaf: hey no one else here did hth
18:46:53 <tswett> What, Obergefell v. Hodges?
18:47:46 <oerjan> although relatedly, i was born on the first anniversary of the stonewall riots
18:48:06 <Taneb> oerjan, awww, did I miss oerjanday?
18:48:42 <oerjan> i was visited by family, so didn't log on much
18:48:57 <Taneb> Come to York and I will buy you a drink or something
18:49:56 <oerjan> somewhat unlikely, but thanks
18:51:03 <oerjan> those supreme court judges don't understand timing, clearly they should have waited 2 more days.
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18:52:26 <shachaf> what was wrong with their timing
18:52:43 <Taneb> shachaf, just missed the anniversary of stonewall
18:52:52 <oerjan> shachaf: imagine if the gays could have celebrated stonewall and obergefell v. hodges on the same day
18:53:23 <oerjan> although, easy solution, just make it a 3-day celebration
18:53:38 <oerjan> Taneb: sorry, only thought of that after pressing return
18:54:46 <shachaf> well the whole parade thing was in sf two days later
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18:55:10 <shachaf> so there was plenty of celebrating hth
18:55:16 <Taneb> London Pride was around the same time too
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18:55:27 <shachaf> http://www.theonion.com/article/supreme-court-rules-favor-most-buck-wild-pride-par-50768
18:56:56 <oerjan> hm seems the festival is on a close weekend
18:58:16 <oerjan> but this day it fell on the actual stonewall date
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19:02:43 <zzo38> Now in Dungeons&Dragons game we entered an underground city and a wizard made most of us invisible. But, I have to figure out what to do, considering what kind of thing can remove the invisibility: the spell expires, attacking, anti-magic field. A bit like a game or correspondence chess we have a lot of time to figure out the plan, but unlike in chess you can't do in between each individual move
19:03:39 <oerjan> clearly you should hold an aberration pride parade hth
19:03:46 <Taneb> zzo38, did I tell you that in the 4th ed game I am in we are hiding in a ship that was meant as our own decoy
19:03:58 <zzo38> Any kind of parade might result in too much attention
19:04:17 <zzo38> Taneb: I think you did
19:04:43 <Taneb> Basically because the party's wizard is a very stubborn character
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19:05:35 <zzo38> In a game I am in though I exploded a ship with their own explosives before they could reach our ship
19:05:48 <Taneb> The 5th ed game I am in, we did an encounter too quickly (in sticking-to-the-story terms) because the DM forgot that 2/3 of the party has night vision
19:07:47 <b_jonas> abberation pride parade hehe
19:08:08 <zzo38> Such a parade doesn't even make much sense, and even if it did it probably won't work
19:08:35 <shachaf> Taneb: if you come visit berkeley i will buy you a drink or something
19:08:43 <shachaf> but most likely something, rather than a drink
19:08:48 <shachaf> unless you're really into drinks
19:08:50 <b_jonas> sure, it would probably not be a good idea for sneaking in a city invisible
19:08:59 <Taneb> shachaf, actually I am just kind of thirsty right now
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19:10:18 <zzo38> At least, not at first. But if the situation can be made to allow such a bit unusual thing to work might result in the correct kind of distraction. That would require a lot of setting up though, and require events to come out in a certain way, which is probably not what will happen.
19:11:12 <Taneb> We also had our plans to blow up a bank foiled when the bank blew up
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19:12:00 <zzo38> I don't expect I ever have needed or would need to blow up a bank though
19:12:50 <Taneb> We were planning on framing it on one of the empires who are chasing after us
19:16:06 <b_jonas> "one of the empires who are chasing after us" sounds funny
19:16:40 <Taneb> b_jonas, I have ended up with a magical superweapon attached to me
19:16:48 <b_jonas> oh great, I need one more series of classes
19:17:29 <Taneb> Which is much desired by various nations
19:17:34 <Taneb> We are headed to another continent
19:20:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Noisett]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43351&oldid=43326 * EmptyJL * (-3)
19:21:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> It is 5 past nine in the morning and already 21 degrees Celsius! <-- i take it you're already on another continent
19:21:46 <zzo38> The invisibility probably will not last long enough, therefore requiring hiding and sneaky and so on
19:21:48 <Taneb> oerjan, I continue to be in York
19:22:11 <oerjan> england is known to be always cold and wet hth
19:22:27 <Taneb> oerjan, didn't you hear that Yorkshire declared independence
19:23:40 <Taneb> istr if Yorkshire was independent it would have been in the top 10 in the 2012 olympics
19:26:08 <oerjan> i think that might apply to trøndelag in the winter games
19:26:37 <Taneb> So trøndelag is the yorkshire of Norway?
19:26:58 <oerjan> i'm not entirely sure what a yorkshire of norway would be
19:27:14 * Taneb --> somewhere maybe cooler
19:27:16 <oerjan> (since i'm not entirely sure what a yorkshire of england is)
19:27:24 <shachaf> Taneb: there's nowhere cooler than #esoteric hth
19:27:34 <zzo38> The guards suggested to our two visible people (two generic human soldiers and therefore no problem to be seen and not recognized) to leave by the west passage (we entered through the north passage), but we can't because one of our party has been left behind to guard the entrance so we have to go back that way
19:27:36 <Taneb> shachaf, I meant in temperature
19:27:43 <shachaf> oerjan: the yorkshire of england is yorkshire hth
19:28:16 <zzo38> This city is also very large and may take a long time to find something. Making it too dark, waiting for nightfall, whatever, might help too though, if we can figure out how is best way
19:29:48 <zzo38> When you have not only a system of two factions against each other, but rather *five*, with complicated relations, this makes it much more confusing.
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19:41:55 <HackEgo> oerjan elliott Bike FreeFull ais523 ais523 Bike
19:42:10 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/wisdom/%241%3F
19:44:32 <oerjan> `` echo -n 'hm... '; \? '$1?'
19:45:58 <oerjan> (that prevents HackEgo's zero-width space)
19:49:03 <shachaf> wait, wasn't "nitia" one of Bike's old nicks?
19:49:51 <shachaf> that's why I thought it was familiar tdnh
19:50:19 <oerjan> oh dear, bike has been absorbed into HackEgo's database
19:50:29 <oerjan> that explains why we haven't seen him
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21:02:12 <shachaf> mauris_: what happened to your old nick?
21:03:40 <mauris_> my irl first name got freed up on freenode's nickserv! that's an opportunity too good to pass up
21:03:43 -!- mauris_ has changed nick to mauris.
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21:04:11 <shachaf> that's how i chose my nick too
21:04:19 <shachaf> but i thought your first name was nooooooooodl?
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21:04:44 <mauris> now i'm in this cool club with you, oerjan, elliott (rip), maybe other people here
21:05:15 <mauris> changing my first name to nooodl to make up for "mauris" already being taken on freenode would have been a very good alternative
21:05:55 <shachaf> Changing his name to match his domain name.
21:06:48 <mauris> that is a pretty good name
21:07:41 <mauris> but a pretty horrible looking website
21:08:56 <mauris> oh it's font-family: fantasy;
21:09:18 <mauris> a very good CSS feature "i don't care what font shows up here, as long as it's ugly"
21:09:32 <pikhq> font-family: eyerape;
21:12:40 <zzo38> My own opinion is it should simply be two choices: fixed-pitch or don't-care
21:13:25 <zzo38> With also an optional language parameter, so that it can select a font suitable for that language if needed
21:15:22 <pikhq> zzo38: There *is* a language parameter, lang:
21:15:22 <b_jonas> I'm writing scary overoptimized code
21:15:52 <zzo38> Yes, I am just saying the font should only be decided by the language, heading level, and one flag to tell whether or not fixpitch is needed
21:16:15 <pikhq> Unfortunately there's a couple other attributes that are appropriate, depending on the language.
21:17:01 <zzo38> Other parameter needed though are to specify emphasis or not
21:17:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: right, and the language parameter probably only has about four meaningful bits that are in common use (russian vs serbian; turkish vs anything else; cjk style)
21:17:45 <pikhq> serif vs. sans serif for Western scripts, Mincho vs. Gothic for East Asian...
21:18:18 <zzo38> Serif/sans-serif/etc should be decided by the client's options instead
21:18:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, teh sans-serif font I set up in my browser is actually a serif font
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21:19:03 <pikhq> b_jonas: There's more linguistic variety in rendering than that. For instance, whether or not certain ligatures should be used is language-specific.
21:19:18 <b_jonas> pikhq: can you give examples?
21:19:39 <b_jonas> there may be other varieties, in which case I'd like to know about them
21:21:15 <pikhq> (though minor) German does not traditionally have an "ffl" ligature.
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21:22:39 <b_jonas> IMO, in most fonts, the fi and fl ligatures are actually VERY ugly, made to differ a lot from separate fi or fl letters because an fi ligature is somehow the mark of professionalism
21:22:40 <pikhq> In Roman alphabet text you're not going to find huge such varieties; the more common distinction is whether or not a given glyph is considered a ligature or a letter.
21:23:05 <b_jonas> most fonts either shouldn't have an fi or fl ligature at all, or should have one that looks almost the same as the two letters rendered separately
21:23:25 <b_jonas> (possibly after some kerning)
21:24:22 <b_jonas> the most horrible is when the ligature appears in the ligature table of a monospaced font, so the monospaced font suddenly isn't as monospaced as you'd have thought
21:24:55 <b_jonas> you write "fi" in such a font, and it will take only one cell, not two
21:24:58 <zzo38> I don't like ligatures in monospace font
21:25:07 <zzo38> 2600 uses ligatures in monospace font and I don't like that
21:25:28 <b_jonas> in this case the problem is that the ligature takes only one monospaced cell instead of two
21:25:50 <zzo38> They also use smartquotes in monospace text and that also is no good
21:25:51 <b_jonas> but in any case, even if it took two cells, an "fi" ligature isn't likely to be needed in a monospaced font
21:26:24 <pikhq> Probably more *relevant* is Arabic vs. Urdu script, which has somewhat distinct glyph rendering...
21:26:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: but isn't that an editor issue rather than a font problem?
21:26:39 <zzo38> b_jonas: Probably, yes
21:27:04 <pikhq> An "fi" ligature is certainly needed in a monospaced font, but for only one reason: it has a code point (for legacy reasons).
21:27:39 <b_jonas> mind you, I also think that perhaps there should have been two different cyrillic scripts, not only one, instead of two different options for language-specific rendering cyrillic text, but it's definitely too late to change that now.
21:28:00 <b_jonas> pikhq: yes, but then the ligature table shouldn't turn "fi" to that code point
21:28:25 <b_jonas> even if there's a glyph for that code point
21:28:35 <pikhq> Oh, certainly. That (well, or similar) is only at all appropriate in the rendering of proportional text.
21:29:52 <pikhq> In fixed width text, the sane handling is that any given codepoint takes 0, 1, or 2 cells.
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21:38:54 <lambdabot> http://www.esotericonline.net/group/vortexmath
21:38:54 <lambdabot> Title: Vortex based Mathematics - Esoteric Online
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21:51:24 <b_jonas> if I'm writing a C++ library with lots of short inline const member functions in template classes, would it be going too far if I said #define Z ) const { return
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21:57:28 <pikhq> that's... terrible.
22:01:15 <HackEgo> Gregor took forty cakes. He took 40 cakes. That's as many as four tens. And that's terrible.
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22:04:17 <oerjan> eek wtf thursday forecast
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22:04:45 <pikhq> Mmm, T23:59:60Z a'comin.
22:05:07 <oerjan> over the next 48 hours it will increase from a low of 13 to a high of 26 celsius
22:05:46 * oerjan needs an acclimatization pill
22:06:47 <pikhq> Could be worse! It's 29C and humid right now!
22:06:52 <pikhq> Oh, and that's a normal temp here.
22:08:25 <myname> itks gpnna be 37chere on saturday
22:08:33 <pikhq> myname: I know, right? That's comfy.
22:10:34 <pikhq> oerjan: Oh, also fun: the average high in July is 31.7C. :)
22:11:08 <oerjan> that's only about 4 degrees below the norwegian maximum temperature record hth
22:11:13 <pikhq> (the record high being a far less happiness-inducing 46C)
22:12:30 <pikhq> The absolute highest recorded temp in the *US*, BTW, is 57C. (kill me)
22:12:57 <oerjan> i thought the death valley had the global record now, after the libyan one was discredited?
22:13:13 <pikhq> That probably is the global high then.
22:15:46 <pikhq> And then there's Phoenix, which has on average about 100 days a year above 37C...
22:16:51 <myname> it sucks to ride a bike there, i guess
22:17:37 <oerjan> Christopher C. Burt, the weather historian writing for Weather Underground who shepherded the Libya reading's 2012 disqualification, believes that the 1913 Death Valley reading is "a myth", and is at least four or five degrees Fahrenheit too high,[10] as do other weather historians Dr. Arnold Court and William Taylor Reid.[90] Burt proposes that the highest reliably recorded temperature on Earth is still at Death Valley, but is instead 53.9 °C ...
22:17:43 <oerjan> ... (129 °F) recorded five times [...]
22:18:42 <myname> 54 c is about the temperature where people become liquid
22:19:35 <oerjan> haven't seen em in a while
22:24:50 <HackEgo> elliot/No one was ever called Elliot.
22:26:07 <pikhq> Of course, 53C has been recorded in Arizona as well.
22:26:51 <HackEgo> hexham/Hexham es la ciudad mas importante de programación esotérico
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22:41:09 <HackEgo> wisdom/hash 2346ad27d7568ba9896f1b7da6b5991251debdf2
22:41:32 <oerjan> i guess it's still there because of the `revert bug.
22:42:24 <HackEgo> oerjan/Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
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22:42:58 <HackEgo> F="$(find wisdom -type f | shuf -n1)"; echo -n "${F#wisdom/}/" | rnooodl; cat "$F" | rnooodl
22:44:08 <shachaf> oerjan: what do you think of time complexity analysis with regard to average time for an operation twh
22:44:28 <oerjan> splendid idea, someone else should do that hth
22:46:08 <shachaf> Is shuf -n1 clever enough to only keep one line in memory?
22:49:26 <oerjan> interesting question. it could obviously do so.
22:50:19 <shachaf> Presumably you can implement shuf -nN with only N lines in memory.
22:50:29 <shachaf> Is that a standard algorithm?
22:50:56 <b_jonas> shachaf: in fact, there are _two_ algorithms, one known, one barely known
22:50:57 <shachaf> Oh, I've even read about it before.
22:51:29 <b_jonas> oh wait, you want N lines of memory only, not runtime?
22:51:30 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reservoir_sampling
22:51:34 <b_jonas> then it's a simple standard algorithm
22:51:39 <b_jonas> sorry, I read your question wrong
22:52:36 <b_jonas> there's a more complicated algorithm for choosing n random indexes without repetition from a large range 1..N where N is much larger than n,
22:52:53 <b_jonas> with not only the memory usage being O(n), but the runtime as well
22:53:51 <b_jonas> and there's two algorithms for that, one described in an exercise in Knuth, the other is barely known
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22:56:11 <oerjan> shuf has some trouble being time limited since lines don't have predictable length
22:56:58 <b_jonas> this is worth not for when you have N data represented explicitly, but when you can generate the data with a fast function from the index
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23:13:54 <zzo38> What is "shuf -n" command meaning?
23:18:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: choose N uniform random lines of the input without repetition and in random order (unless there are fewer than N lines in the input), where N is the argument to the switch -n
23:19:49 <zzo38> If you want one random line can you do, pick the first line with probability 1/1, replace the memory with the second line with probability 1/2, replace the memory with the third line with probability 1/3, etc
23:20:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's how it works
23:20:50 <b_jonas> the algorithm for shuf -n is so famous it's described in both the main text of Knuth and (iirc) in the Cormen-Leiserson-Rivest-Stein book
23:21:54 <zzo38> I did once need to implement such a thing too, but with weights too, and this is what I used.
23:22:43 <b_jonas> weighted is probably less well known
23:23:01 <b_jonas> I'm not sure what the weights are supposed to mean
23:23:11 <zzo38> Well, this is I figured it out by myself I didn't read those books
23:23:47 <b_jonas> does it mean you take a weighted independent random selection of N items, and then condition that on it having no repetitions?
23:24:39 <zzo38> In my case I was only taking one item, and the weight is meaning that item can be more than one
23:25:16 <zzo38> Such as [AAAABBCCDEFG] then you can instead make [A(4) B(2) C(2) D(1) E(1) F(1) G(1)] where the number in () is a weight number.
23:26:02 <fowl> Does a markov chain generally hold probability info
23:26:23 <zzo38> fowl: I thought it does but I don't know
23:26:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, choosing _one_ item with weighted
23:26:55 <b_jonas> the algorithm for that _is_ in Knuth
23:27:07 <fowl> I am using a table of (string,string) => list<string>
23:27:16 <fowl> And choosing the next word at random
23:27:32 <b_jonas> in fact, a stronger algorithm for that
23:27:57 <b_jonas> again, one that finds a random index in O(1) time, after O(n) time and space preprocessing the weights to O(n) extra space
23:28:56 <b_jonas> I believe that algorithm is also in the C++11 standard library, the preprocessed state is called std::discrete_distribution
23:29:21 <b_jonas> (and its operator() member function generates an index based on the preprocessed data)
23:29:37 <b_jonas> I think it's also in libgsl, but I'm not completely sure
23:30:16 <b_jonas> this, of course, is again most useful if you can random access the input you want to sample
23:30:29 <b_jonas> otherwise the simpler algorithm with no preprocessing works too
23:31:28 <zzo38> I didn't use preprocess weights. I implemented it as a SQL aggregate function in a C code, so you have to read it one record at a time and do not have the capability to preprocess anything
23:32:59 <b_jonas> though if the input set is always the same, you could index it so it's random access by the index, and then use the more complicated algorithm if you want to get lots of independent weighted samples
23:33:34 <b_jonas> like if a webpage wants to show a random image or quotations out of a weighted set every time you load it
23:34:35 <zzo38> The function implementation doesn't know if the input set is always the same or not, and anyways I didn't implement it for multiple selections; I only implemented to pick one. But yes it can be useful, if you want to pick more than one, to make up the proper way to do that
23:36:09 <zzo38> But, one purpose I intend to do with is that you can generate a booster pack of Magic: the Gathering cards or whatever by a SQL query.
23:37:26 <b_jonas> though that's more complicated
23:37:33 <b_jonas> a booster pack usually doesn't contain repetitions
23:38:11 <b_jonas> and the ideal distribution used might not be completely known, because Wizards doesn't tell so that people can't complain if they don't do it perfectly
23:38:33 <b_jonas> you can probably find a convincing enough approximation for that distribution though
23:39:03 <zzo38> I don't know whether or not it does, but that would involve changing it too. However you can also just use the weights when there is not the repetitions, use a trigger that would insert records into the pack table and each time to pick one, pick only from the ones that aren't already picked
23:39:32 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm not sure if that's exactly the same
23:40:31 <b_jonas> I mean, I'm not sure it's the same as repicking the whole thing when there's a repetition
23:42:00 <b_jonas> in fact, I think it's not the same
23:42:05 <b_jonas> when the distribution is not uniform
23:42:35 <zzo38> In SQL a infinite loop can contain only SELECT statements though, you can't make a infinite loop with INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE, etc although finite loops can contain INSERT, UPDATE, DELETE; and no loops can include statements such as CREATE and PRAGMA
23:44:48 <b_jonas> but can't you just generate a booster pack using unweighted samples without repetition instead?
23:45:23 <b_jonas> with possibly some cards duplicated in older sets, and deciding separately whether you want a mythic or a rare, and whether you want a foil and of what rarity
23:45:27 <zzo38> In Magic: the Gathering at least, I think the only case where weighted samples are even needed is when you don't pick more than one
23:45:33 <zzo38> (Except for some old sets)
23:46:04 <b_jonas> even for old sets, you just need multiple copies of a card in the same set and rarity (sometimes with the same art, sometimes with different art)
23:46:21 <b_jonas> but of course it's hard to be sure what they really do to generate booster packs
23:46:55 <zzo38> I would generally though want to ignore art and holographic since they don't affect the game. Nevertheless for some people can be useful such as if they use this software to make up their own card game
23:49:03 <b_jonas> the foil does affect the distribution of the booster card
23:49:15 <b_jonas> (at least for most of the recent expert expansion sets)
23:49:40 <b_jonas> because a common is replaced by a foil of any rarity, so boosters with a foil rare have another rare
23:49:51 <b_jonas> you can't just ignore that
23:50:13 <zzo38> Does it improve the Limited formats though?
23:50:24 <b_jonas> you could ignore the art, technically, but that doesn't really simpligy your code
23:50:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know really
23:50:29 <pikhq> Yes, it's possible for a draft pool to have more rares than expected.
23:50:51 <pikhq> Unless by "improve" you mean "make it a better game", not "improve the power level in the format".
23:51:02 <zzo38> I mean to make it a better game.
23:51:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: it probably improves the satisfaction of customers at least, because they can very rarely open boosters with two rares
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23:51:17 <pikhq> Ah. That's probably a judgement call really.
23:51:20 <b_jonas> I don't know how it affects the metagame itself
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23:52:16 <zzo38> When making up distribution of cards in a pack, I am concerned here only about Limited formats. When I would design my own card game I would do this too and the rarity and so on is defined to improve the Limited formats only.
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23:57:32 <coppro> happy leap second everyone
23:58:20 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible to add leap seconds into the configuration file of Astrolog?