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00:52:35 <boily> slaying monsters and other nasty dæmons. along with elves, abominations, various tengues and giants.
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03:40:05 <MDude> I would guess downvoting would be allowed on the basis that it makes even less sense to add an exception to the system just to prevent users from doing something silly.
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03:53:38 <oren> The title is glitching up
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03:56:24 <oren> augh why isn't it showing as utf-8
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04:03:06 <oren> oh its midnight
04:04:26 <oren> since my laptop is now immobile, I'm accessing it remotely using the laptops in the other rooms instead of carryign it
04:11:29 <oren> on the plus side, this means i can run firefox on the local machine, and DF on my laptop, and not hang either one
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04:24:21 <oren> aaa fungot has quit?
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09:05:10 <int-e> early GG update today
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10:25:59 <int-e> Oh Canada, glorious and free!
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10:36:02 <mroman> today is vandalism day
10:39:01 <mroman> it's where all extreme socialist groups go on a vandalism streak
10:46:32 <boily> I wonder if there'll be manifs today...
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10:47:52 <oren> which socialist groups qualify for "extreme" though?
10:49:01 <oren> I guess empirically, whichever ones go on a vandalism streak today?
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11:03:33 <boily> boerjan matin! boren matin! bon mataneb!
11:12:59 <oren> an an an ... my left control key has stopped working
11:13:42 <b_jonas> unless it's a software problem
11:14:15 <oren> it is probably a problem with the kybard
11:15:22 * boily loves his mechanical keyboards
11:15:56 <boily> oren: have you ever heard of our Lord the Loud Click?
11:16:44 <oren> I should get a clicking keyboard, since they probably last longer
11:18:56 <b_jonas> or just get three non-clicking keyboards for the same price
11:19:14 <boily> oren: don't listen to the herectics.
11:19:20 <boily> b_jonas: flblblblblblbl :P
11:20:02 <mroman> are extreme by definition :D
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11:51:26 <mroman> It's raining like fnord.
12:05:46 <b_jonas> stupid websides, with their crazy css rules that just causes important text to crop or overlap so I have to fix the formatting locally
12:21:42 <int-e> you can just disable CSS
12:22:39 <b_jonas> that breaks this page even more horribly
12:22:51 <b_jonas> I disable some rules only, and sometimes modify numbers
12:29:45 <oren> I want a text-mode ncurses browser that supports only non-crazy CSS
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12:36:23 <oren> Really the problem is that HTML-CSS-JS is ostensibly both a document format and a programming language
12:36:55 <oren> but the requirements of each of those are very different
12:37:03 <b_jonas> as I see it, the problem is that people are trying to set the format too strictly on their webpages instead of the browser just figuring out the right sizes and fonts that work for me
12:37:28 <int-e> I think it's called "web design".
12:37:49 <b_jonas> web designers should be shipped on the B-ark so we have nicely designed web pages on the new planet
12:38:35 <oren> or maybe they should just serve images instead of web pages
12:39:14 <oren> why? then you don't need fonts
12:40:26 <mroman> images with click maps
12:40:40 <b_jonas> because I want to be served content, not formatting
12:40:47 <b_jonas> I can decide on the formatting myself, thank you
12:40:51 <b_jonas> and I can choose the right fonts that please me
12:40:52 <oren> and with the amount of Jquery sludge these web pages run on, it might even be smaller
12:41:00 <int-e> I want to copy&paste text into an IRC chat, for example.
12:44:01 <int-e> nicely put: "Everyone Wants You To Have Security, But Not from Them"
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12:53:13 <oerjan> hm i think xkcd what-if hasn't updated for two weeks
12:53:59 <oren> I've got it! #define btw del( #define lol ) #define del(x)
12:54:38 <oren> So I can comment like btw, this variable stores the user's preferred colors, lol
12:54:46 <Gregor> oerjan: Some assclown severed the fiber lines in a car crash.
12:54:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, it rarely updates
12:54:53 <Gregor> Expected fix before 8PM EDT
12:54:58 <FireFly> The worst is when sites serve text and then replace it with images client-side using javascript... for god knows what reason
12:55:18 <b_jonas> oerjan: http://what-if.xkcd.com/archive/ lists dates
12:55:38 <oerjan> b_jonas: i guess he's running out of disaster scenarios
12:55:48 <b_jonas> oerjan: and randall's removed the statement that it updates every Tuesday for long
12:56:50 <Melvar> < Gregor> oerjan: Some assclown severed the fiber lines in a car crash. – Wut. How?
12:56:59 <b_jonas> I'm more worried that tom7's radar didn't update yet. he's made a point of having posted at least one blog entry (even if it's a silly short one) every calendar month for FIFTEEN YEARS now!
12:57:33 <b_jonas> so the one for march is very due now unless he's using some riddiculous GMT-13:00 timezone as an excuse
12:57:38 <oerjan> b_jonas: it's _usually_ at least once every two weeks though.
12:57:49 <b_jonas> http://radar.spacebar.org/
12:58:36 <oerjan> b_jonas: "greetings from Tonga!" (or is that the wrong way around)
12:58:53 <FireFly> I think you mean the one from april
12:59:11 <oren> hmm the btw comment lol syntax is nestable
12:59:24 <b_jonas> oerjan: dunno, but the problem is, I think -13:00 timezone isn't even used much, and he's too late for -12:00 now. +13:00 might exist with dst I think.
12:59:47 <b_jonas> and -13:00 will be too late in about a minute or something
13:00:02 <b_jonas> and he could have posted something about how sigbovik went down
13:00:25 <b_jonas> yep, too late even with -13:00 now
13:01:32 <b_jonas> though I was thinking someone could make a medieval history theme park and declare he's using like GMT-3000000:00 timezone so it's still the middle ages there
13:02:51 <oerjan> hm indeed -13:00 isn't used, although +14:00 is
13:03:28 <b_jonas> sure, +14:00 is a great tourist attraction, they can make videos about earliest new year celebrations and stuff
13:04:03 <Gregor> <Melvar> < Gregor> oerjan: Some assclown severed the fiber lines in a car crash. – Wut. How? // Idonno, I'm just relaying an email
13:04:21 <b_jonas> if I had a pacific island vacation resort to the south from 30 deg latitude south, I'd use +14:00 timezone too
13:06:22 <b_jonas> latest new year is probably not such a good attraction
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13:14:32 <oren> http://hastebin.com/diyidehuqi.cs
13:25:13 <oren> int *s = malloc(sizeof(int)*100); btw that becomes lol let(s,newa(int,100));
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13:59:24 <FireFly> oren: you would love J's source code
14:01:39 <FireFly> Which uses things like #define DO(n,stm) {I i=0,_n=(n); for(;i<_n;i++){stm}}
14:02:23 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/j.h.html
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14:03:46 <FireFly> http://xen.firefly.nu/up/jtype.h.html has some crazy macros as well
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14:13:47 <oren> Hmm, the btw lol doesn't work. btw comment :) does work
14:14:54 <oren> as does btw comment ); and X)
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14:15:47 <oren> those are cool macros!
14:16:23 <FireFly> They're a bit too obscure for my taste
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14:17:18 <oren> well they're not general-purpose
14:20:11 <FireFly> b_jonas: aw, he cheated a bit apparently
14:21:48 <b_jonas> though he didn't post anything new. I've already seen the video.
14:23:36 <S0lll0s> what are some common things you would implement in a new language to show off?
14:24:04 <b_jonas> S0lll0s: check out Rosetta Code for ideas
14:24:07 <oren> depends on what sort of capabilities
14:24:31 <oerjan> S0lll0s: i'd point you to the wiki but it's down. oh hm...
14:24:34 <b_jonas> S0lll0s: hello world, list the first few hundred primes in decimal,
14:24:50 <b_jonas> no matter, http://rosettacode.org is up
14:26:06 <oerjan> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Popular_problem
14:26:48 <oerjan> http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:NL5oIRnSm1wJ:esolangs.org/wiki/Popular_problem+&cd=1&hl=no&ct=clnk&gl=no
14:37:36 <int-e> Catching up on old emails ... Lens has a function called "confusing"?! How appropriate...
14:38:25 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Kan.Rift.Rift (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
14:38:50 <int-e> Great type, too. (wtf is a Rift...)
14:39:09 <S0lll0s> thanks, was looking for smth like rosetta
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14:41:17 <int-e> Nor a Banana, I think we can go on like this for days.
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15:08:38 <edwardk> int-e: named rather deliberately =)
15:09:09 <edwardk> int-e: rift is a right kan lift, its a right kan extension in a 2-category where we've flipped the 2-morphisms
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15:09:50 <edwardk> int-e: alternately if we think of applicatives as monoids in the category of endofunctors with regards to day convolution you can think of it as 'curried' day convolution.
15:09:58 <edwardk> that latter sense is the useful part here
15:10:09 <edwardk> we use rift to re-associate (<*>)
15:10:18 <b_jonas> help! this channel is totally taken over by haskellers!
15:10:25 <b_jonas> did you all get thrown out of #haskell?
15:10:29 * int-e nods slowly, trying hard not to look stupid.
15:10:47 <edwardk> the Yoneda in there fuses together multiple lenses. the Rift in there fuses to the left the (<*>)'s exposing the (<$>)'s to be fused.
15:11:24 <edwardk> the net effect is that confusing (some.big.long.complicated.traversal) is faster than some.big.long.complicated.traversal) when the compiler can't inline the traversal
15:11:42 <edwardk> e.g. when it is recursive or something
15:11:55 <edwardk> int-e: that wall of text was mostly 'hey there is a deep motivation for this stuff' =)
15:12:26 <int-e> maybe you should just have said that "fusing" alludes to fusing :P
15:12:56 <edwardk> i'll be giving a couple of talks next month showcasing 'applicatives are monoids in the category of endofunctors, too' as part of how i design the api for discrimination.
15:13:20 <edwardk> we have fusing which abuses the fact that Yoneda lets us fuse fmaps
15:13:41 <edwardk> then fusing (_2._2) becomes one call to fmap for an unknown functor rather than two.
15:13:53 <edwardk> confusing is the upgraded version for traversals
15:14:01 <edwardk> named because it has the most confusing type we have in lens
15:14:11 <lambdabot> Functor f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
15:14:13 <lambdabot> Applicative f => LensLike (Data.Functor.Kan.Rift.Rift (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f) (Data.Functor.Yoneda.Yoneda f)) s t a b -> LensLike f s t a b
15:15:02 <int-e> ... ah well let me fill in: <HackEgo> /etc/fstab: File not found.
15:27:43 <b_jonas> “Turns out the boolean NOT operator in PHP is !, not "not". I typed "not" and my syntax highlighter highlighted it, so I assumed it was the correct operator. Yeesh.”
15:31:29 <oren> syntax highlighting is only as accurate as the knowledge of the person who wrote the highlighter
15:33:33 <b_jonas> oren: actually, I think php is like perl in that NOT and ! are both operators
15:33:44 <b_jonas> but NOT has low precedence
15:34:43 <b_jonas> (maybe it's like python or ruby *ducks*)
15:35:17 <oren> but they do have &, |, ^, &&, ||, and, or, and xor. go figure
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15:36:12 <b_jonas> do you remember very old (like 1.2 or something) ruby which had the same situation as lua, with & and | being bitwise operators but ^ being power so they used xor as the bitwise xor operator?
15:37:04 <oren> well that's fine I think. because != is the logical xor operator
15:37:11 <b_jonas> lua uses ~ as bitwise xor these days
15:38:05 <oren> Of course, you can always just stipulate that true is all ones rather than being 1, then you can use only one set
15:38:33 <b_jonas> these days people have started to realize that less than, lessequal, equal, not equal, addition, subtraction, bitwise and, bitwise or, and bitwise xor are important operators, and they need short mnemonics, whereas division and power and integer division and modulus and stuff like that doesn't
15:38:48 <b_jonas> if only they also realized that min and max are just as important operations and also need short operator symbols
15:39:11 <oren> i guess that makes true=-1
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15:39:52 <b_jonas> I can certainly understand the apl viewpoint that true is 1
15:40:08 <b_jonas> both representations can be right depending on what you want
15:40:18 <b_jonas> there's also cases when true is minus infinity
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15:41:13 <b_jonas> oren: basically, booleans come up in a lot of places, and there's more than one way to represent them, and no one of the ways is always the best
15:41:56 <oren> Hmm... all ones as a float would be NAN
15:43:00 <oren> Hm.. I just did it in scrip7 and I got nan
15:45:37 <oren> well specifically -nan. I dunno how a NaN can specifically be negative but that is what printf outputted
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15:50:19 <oren> fff0000000000000 is -inf apparently
15:51:07 <int-e> 7ff0000000000000 is +inf
15:51:10 <FireFly> <b_jonas> lua uses ~ as bitwise xor these days ← Huh, I didn't know that. That's kinda cute, considering it uses ~= for inequality
15:51:16 <oren> Unless my compy's arch is screwed up
15:52:12 <b_jonas> I'll check now, but I totally thought all ones represents infinity, and all other values with maximum exponent represent nans, signaling or quiet depending on the 0.5 bit
15:52:18 <int-e> whereas NaN has no specific value; 7ff<anything but 0> and fff<anything but 0> should all be NaN values.
15:52:43 <oren> X=-1 X/0 XpX IxI . the output was -inf fff0000000000000
15:53:00 <b_jonas> I'll check the docs. if you're right, then thank you for fixing my misconception (also this is weird)
15:56:04 <b_jonas> infinity has all fraction bits zero
15:56:14 <b_jonas> so it's like 1.0 with the nan exponent
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15:57:54 <b_jonas> and for completeness, qnan is one with the 0.5 bit zero
15:58:29 <b_jonas> no wait I got it backwards
15:58:50 <b_jonas> qnan is one with the 0.5 bit one and the exponent set to the maximum
15:59:22 <b_jonas> snan is one with the 0.5 bit zero, bur not all the mantissa bits zero, and exponent is maximum
16:00:51 <b_jonas> int-e: yes, that's the usual qnan value, the one you get on x86 from inf-inf or 0/0 or similar stuff
16:03:04 <b_jonas> this means all ones is a qnan, but it's one you get from compare instructions, not from other floating instructions unless they already get an unusual nan as its input
16:03:27 <oren> That's the value I got. printf outputs -nan same as all other negative nans though
16:03:30 <b_jonas> thanks for putting me right
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17:42:11 <oren> reading books from 1917 is hindered by the author's expectation that the reader understands English, French, Latin and German
17:46:36 <oerjan> je ne sais nicht, was problema est
17:49:06 <b_jonas> oren: and Russian too maybe?
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18:48:29 <FreeFull> oren: Dracula is from 1897 and perfectly readable
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20:11:49 <zzo38> Can you do FM synthesis by calculating all of the harmonics?
20:21:26 <int-e> Ah, cloudatcost seems to have recovered from their car accident. :P
20:22:06 <int-e> (4 hours ago, when HackEgo came back? perhaps...)
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20:30:39 <FreeFull> zzo38: At that point it's additive synthesis
20:31:25 <FreeFull> There isn't an obvious way to go from FM to the frequency domain, I think
20:31:49 <zzo38> Yes, I know, but, with .XM and so on you can't do proper FM except with 1:1 keyscaling of the modulation envelope and you might not want this
20:32:41 <FreeFull> zzo38: Samples will sound good enough
20:32:56 <FreeFull> Although obviously it's less flexible
20:34:00 <zzo38> Yes I know it is less flexible; AmigaMML can already generate FM synthesis samples but that might not be quite good enough; the file format does not support FM though
20:34:02 <FreeFull> zzo38: Or you can go with additive synthesis, and get cool sounds that aren't FM
20:34:32 <FreeFull> zzo38: If you want FM synthesis support, you could use .s3m
20:34:59 <zzo38> Yes, but even with .s3m most playback software does not support FM
20:35:12 <zzo38> And hardly any program supports the Adlib Tracker II format
20:35:36 <FreeFull> Which is the point at which you create a .flac of your music
20:39:38 <zzo38> Some programs also do not support FLAC though; they might support only MOD/S3M/IT/XM, or possibly those formats plus Vorbis; still the Vorbis and FLAC formats are plain audio formats (with compression) and may be much larger file than ones telling the notes to play; also you cannot easily set loop points
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20:41:12 <zzo38> I know I can also do FM with VGM format, but still it isn't one of the supported formats either
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20:43:55 <zzo38> I also notice on Wikipedia about "group additive synthesis"
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21:30:38 <Taneb> Did I tell you people I wrote a fun program that makes mazes
21:30:46 <Taneb> here is some output: http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~taneb/baz.svg
21:31:54 <Taneb> I don't have the program on this computer but it uses a randomly weighted Kruskal's algorithm
21:32:10 <Melvar> Taneb: What does it make the svg with?
21:32:20 <Taneb> Melvar, the Haskell "diagrams" library
21:32:23 <zzo38> What is a randomly weighted Kruskal's algorithm?
21:32:30 <Taneb> http://projects.haskell.org/diagrams/
21:32:46 <Taneb> zzo38, Kruskal's algorithm finds the minimum spanning tree of a graph
21:33:01 <Taneb> This makes a graph with random weights then applies Kruskal's algorithm to get a maze out of it
21:34:19 <Melvar> Taneb: Ah. Neat. I’m not sure how to make a path like that with it, but neat.
21:34:32 <Melvar> Wait, is this a negative maze?
21:34:40 <Taneb> Melvar, the path is in black
21:34:48 <Taneb> Because I didn't put too much effort into the actual rendering
21:35:03 <Taneb> And this was easier
21:35:23 <Taneb> Melvar, I'll paste the code later
21:36:50 <Taneb> It's less than 100 lines of Haskell
21:37:16 <Taneb> Some of it's pretty ugly because Kruskal's algorithm works best with a union-find data structure which is easier to implement with mutability so I use ST for that
21:40:53 <int-e> Taneb: Fun approach, but I think using a union find data structure is simpler. (The idea is to track connected components of the graph and only add new edges between distinct components. this gives O(n \alpha(n)) maze generation with very little effort.
21:41:20 <Taneb> int-e, yes, that's what I said I was doing
21:41:31 <int-e> (n is the number of nodes, so w*h)
21:41:40 <Taneb> That is exactly what I am doing
21:42:53 <int-e> Hmm. I wouldn't call it Kruskal's algorithm... the added weights for modeling it seem to be too artificial.
21:44:06 <int-e> FWIW, I started replying after "It's less than 100 lines of Haskell", I didn't really take your followup message into account.
21:45:54 * Melvar finds headline: “Haskell creator Paul Hudak is dead”
21:47:53 <Melvar> <ω< The article itself trips over its own feet trying to explain what the hell Haskell is in one paragraph without knowing anything about it.
21:49:19 <int-e> Melvar: I believe the headline isn't specific enough to identify the article.
21:50:31 <Melvar> int-e: http://www.heise.de/-2631171
21:52:19 <FireFly> "Mehr zum Thema Python" well not quite
21:55:35 <int-e> Let me give that a try: "Haskell was created near the end of the 1980s as a pure, functional programming language, predominantly for scientific purposes. A distinguishing feature of functional programming languages is that functions applied to the same arguments always return the same value regardless of how often they are called, and do not influence the state of a program. In addition, Haskell...
21:55:41 <int-e> ...is based on the concept of monads and doesn't distinguish between variables and constants."
21:57:02 <int-e> "The logo of the language, a lambda, originates in the lambda calculus that underlies [Haskell], which provides a sort of semantics for certain calculations."
21:57:11 <Taneb> int-e, the Wikipedia article on maze generation calls it Kruskal's algorithm
21:57:18 <Taneb> And it certainly bears similarities
21:57:40 <int-e> Taneb: Ah. Yes, there are similarities, but they still seem artificial to me.
21:58:03 <int-e> Taneb: Anyway, perhaps it's just that I didn't think of this myself. :P
21:58:23 <int-e> s/of this/of this connection/
21:58:58 <int-e> Melvar: I'm done... just translating for our non-(native German speakers) :P
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22:09:36 <int-e> Hmm, where have I heard this, I guess it was the Security Nightmares talk at the last C3C. "Do you know this effect, when you read a news article in your area of expertise, and you realize that the article is completely wrong? And then you read the next article and believe everything it says..."
22:12:45 <shachaf> It's an old thing. I first heard it named after Gell-Mann.
22:13:05 <shachaf> I most recently heard it in a talk by Daniel Bernstein. Maybe that's the one you're thinking of.
22:14:07 <int-e> Nah, I'm pretty sure I got my source correct (it was in German, starting with "Kennt ihr das...")... that said, thanks for the references, especially the first one.
22:14:12 <shachaf> I think it was that "death of optimizing compilers" talk.
22:14:34 <int-e> I have not seen that talk; I've only seen the slides. So that's definitely not it.
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22:26:42 <zzo38> I found equations for "DSF synthesis"; there is a simple equation for the non-bandlimited form but the "a cos theta" term in the denominator seems to make it difficult.
22:26:49 <zzo38> http://www.csounds.com/journal/issue11/distortionSynthesis.html
22:32:58 <scoofy> a.k.a. discrete summation formula
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22:46:32 * pikhq should clean up and AV mod his Famicom.
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23:50:28 <zzo38> Now I added #CHDIR #TUNING #WAVE-SIZE commands into AmigaMML (not released yet).
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23:52:39 <zzo38> There are still no command-line switches (it is likely it won't ever need any).
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03:20:32 <zzo38> They won't let me to change the cheque number or to digitally sign the cheque!
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03:24:26 <quintopia> yeah banks are kinda set in their ways
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04:07:12 <zzo38> I got just intonation to work in AmigaMML now
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06:34:52 <quintopia> zzo38: can you use equal temperament and just intonation in the same song?
06:35:23 <zzo38> Yes, although I am not sure why you should
06:37:20 <quintopia> zzo38: so you could track Jonathan Harvey's "Tombeau de Messiaen" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nn0Jwrnv07M
06:40:34 <zzo38> O, OK, if you want to
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06:42:58 <shachaf> FireFly: That version of Ievan Polkka has drums in it. :-(
06:43:03 <shachaf> The scow of musical instruments.
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07:48:20 <zzo38> You can look at this https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml if you wish to add any issues/bug-report/feature-suggestion/question/complaint of AmigaMML, including to make the FAQ section in case it help, or make up the list of comparing of different programs that can make .MOD/.XM musics and what feature and differences it has
07:51:36 <zzo38> The formula given for non-bandlimited DSF doesn't seems working if a=0, and I don't know about a<0
07:56:39 <zzo38> OpenMPT can also do just intonation (even in the same song as equal temperament), but only in .MPTM format, not in .XM format. (OpenMPT will still load just intonation files created using AmigaMML and play them back though.)
08:00:24 <zzo38> I suppose one way to do FM without the inherent 1:1 keyscaling is to figure out which notes are used and then generate the sample for each note with antikeyscaling applied in order to cancel it out.
08:04:46 <zzo38> You might need a lot of samples to implement that though if a lot of range is used
08:10:06 <zzo38> The Csound code is working if a=0 but the formula given above isn't; it looks like a formula above must be wrong then
08:11:16 <FreeFull> shachaf: I don't see how drums belong in ievan polkka
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08:49:05 <shachaf> what do you think of this Fazer Puikula Täysjyväruis thing i have here
08:49:13 <shachaf> is there a generic non-brand name for that sort of thing
09:06:59 <Taneb> @tell Melvar My maze generator code: http://lpaste.net/131886
09:09:48 <Taneb> I seem to have got distracted while writing the title
09:11:12 <lambdabot> Taneb said 4m 12s ago: My maze generator code: http://lpaste.net/131886
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09:35:22 <Taneb> Melvar, my implementation of union is incorrect, I just realised
09:35:37 <Taneb> Doesn't affect the result but the running time might be a little slower
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09:41:38 <int-e> Hmm, cloudatcost has a new scam^Wbusiness idea? "CloudPRO", hmmm.
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09:56:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Aheui]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42778&oldid=41882 * 211.208.65.26 * (+77)
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10:11:19 <oren> Is there such thing as a semivisual editor yet?
10:12:44 <oren> Basically it would be, like ed, execpt when in i,a,or c, you can use up to go to previous line and edit it
10:16:25 <int-e> vi, if vim is too much for you
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10:17:08 <oerjan> i don't think vi supports the second feature hth
10:17:08 <b_jonas> oren: do all those old editors for BASIC and APL count where you edit the program with line-oriented commands (modify line, list line, delete line) but you can edit a line in the screen buffer after you listed it as an easy way to modify that line?
10:17:19 <int-e> ed was extended to ex, and "ex was eventually given a screen oriented visual interface (adding to its command line oriented operation), thereby becoming the vi text editor."
10:17:37 <int-e> oren: really, vi is the correct answer, historically speaking.
10:17:38 <oren> b_jonas: that's exactly what I wanted to describe
10:18:45 <b_jonas> oren: it's not clear. the alternative would be something like a line-oriented editor where you enter lines with readline, and when you list lines, they get into the readline command buffer so you can retrieve them
10:18:53 <b_jonas> that's a quite different mode of operation
10:20:19 <oren> Well, like you said, after etiher listing lines with p, or entering lines with i, i would want to be able to press up to go up on the screen and edit the listed lines
10:20:49 <b_jonas> oren: sure, but the two are quite different
10:20:54 <int-e> oren: or maybe ex. "The open command displays one line at a time on any terminal, while visual works on CRT terminals with random positioning cursors [...]"
10:20:57 <b_jonas> either allows you to edit lines you list, but in a different way
10:21:23 <int-e> but I've never used ex, I don't know whether you can easily go back to the previous line.
10:21:58 <int-e> source of that last quote: http://ex-vi.sourceforge.net/ex.html (the other one was from wikipedia)
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10:28:13 <b_jonas> Is there an esolang that implements "improved mutexes" which are improved and parallelized because more than one thread can lock them simultanously?
10:28:32 <Vorpal> My RPi crashed due to nfsd causing an oops it appears
10:28:34 <Vorpal> There is that and a bunch of null bytes in my /var/log/messages on the RPi
10:28:48 <b_jonas> Vorpal: no, a semaphore can be unlocked multiple times
10:29:06 <Vorpal> b_jonas, okay, then what on earth is this sync primitive you are talking about?
10:29:08 <b_jonas> this could be locked multiple times and is lockless so it never blocks if you attempt to lock it
10:33:36 <Vorpal> b_jonas, who came up with that idea?
10:34:13 <b_jonas> dunno, I haven't heared it from anyone else
10:34:30 <b_jonas> I was thinking about it for file locks
10:34:47 <b_jonas> ok, maybe some network file systems already implement that for file locking
10:34:57 <oerjan> or possibly a commaphore
10:35:23 <b_jonas> oren: yes, commutex is a good name
10:37:50 <Vorpal> b_jonas, so what is the actual use of it?
10:41:20 <Vorpal> By the way, the RPi 2 is so much faster... Aptitude is actually usable on it for example
10:45:24 <oren> aptitude with the ncurses, or the X interface?
10:51:47 <Vorpal> oren, ncurses, didn't even know it had an X interface
10:51:54 <Vorpal> And I run my RPi as a headless server
10:52:05 <Vorpal> How do you get aptitude to go X?
10:58:00 <int-e> @check \f -> f True == False
10:58:01 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 4 tests):
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11:07:01 <oren> I don't remeber, it's been a while... I usually install stuff by apt-get
11:10:33 <Vorpal> oren, sure you aren't thinking of synaptic or similar?
11:11:50 <oren> Hmm... googling around has informed me that I am thinking of synaptic
11:13:17 <oren> but right now I'm using puppy linux
11:16:19 <oren> I like the way it starts up so fast
11:19:19 <oren> it starts up in less than a second to desktop
11:21:01 <oren> On the other hand, it doesn't have a login screen and your username is root
11:21:27 <oren> So basically no protection whatsoever
11:22:42 <oren> better be careful with those rm commands...
11:52:02 <int-e> @check (\a -> a :: Bool) .||. (\b -> b :: Bool) -- huh.
11:52:03 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
11:52:07 <int-e> @check (\a -> a :: Bool) .||. (\b -> b :: Bool)
11:52:09 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable, Falsifiable (after 3 tests):
11:56:26 <Vorpal> oren, is that on an SSD?
11:56:37 <Vorpal> Also yeah I wouldn't run desktop as root
11:57:19 <Vorpal> In fact I'm paranoid enough to spend a significant amount of time on apparmor profiles for stuff like the web browser
12:47:32 <oren> Yeah it's on a SD card
12:49:52 <oren> "precise puppy"
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12:53:31 <oren> Also I like screen -DRR
12:54:48 <oren> what happens if I ssh to myself through screen and then run screen -DRR
12:55:20 <oren> it will disconnect me in order to connect me
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13:05:04 <nvd> Wow, I feel professional
13:13:35 <oren> what's that like?
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13:20:21 <oren> Hmm... youtube actually works on Seamonkey, but it's making the latency of my ssh connection terrible
13:21:54 <oren> Why can't I tunnel smooth video through ssh -CX?
13:23:24 <oren> It doesn't make any sense, how can it take 2 seconds to go to the other room and back!?!?!?
13:23:49 <Melvar> Probably because it’s being sent uncompressed?
13:23:51 <int-e> Uhm, it'll take a ton of bandwidth, and -C doesn't help your latency at all.
13:23:51 <nvd> It's going via Leeds
13:24:59 <oren> Hmm... maybe it would be better if we got a better router
13:25:23 <int-e> It's a terrible idea. Better to set up a proxy/VPN (does sshuttle work for youtube? I don't know...)
13:25:46 <int-e> And decode the videos locally.
13:27:43 <oren> So essentially, I either have to figre out how to run firefox on puppy linux, or cope with the limitations of seamonkey (surprisingly more usable than i remeber).
13:28:52 <oren> Running firefox on the other laptop (the one that is decapitated) through ssh -CX just does. not. work.
13:28:59 <int-e> Just for fun, you could try a VNC client. I suspect that will perform awfully, but better than firefox over -X.
13:30:05 <oren> is it correct to describe a computer with a broken display connector as "decapitated"?
13:33:33 <int-e> It's strange, especially when the "head" is still attached.
13:33:49 <oren> nearly headless nick
13:34:06 <int-e> otoh it's quite clear what you mean *shrugs*
13:35:47 <oren> well DF does pretty well over sshCX
13:38:13 <oren> not sure why, actually...
13:38:26 <int-e> The problem with -X is that modern GUI toolkits all go the render-to-bitmap-then-copy-to-screen route. They use XShm or some OpenGL textures if available, but they are not designed to perform well over the network.
13:40:02 <oren> Ah, so because DF doesn't use a toolkit, it doesn't have a problem?
13:40:52 <int-e> If done right, Dwarf fortress will just upload the pictures to the X11 server once, as a pixmap, and then just instruct the X11 server to copy it to various places.
13:41:01 <int-e> Not sure if SDL supports that.
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14:02:33 <int-e> @check \x y z t -> t ==> z ==> y ==> x ==> 0 == 0
14:02:35 <lambdabot> *** Gave up! Passed only 52 tests.
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16:03:01 <lambdabot> The operator ‘==>’ [infixr 0] of a section
16:03:01 <lambdabot> must have lower precedence than that of the operand, namely ‘$’ [infixr 0] i...
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16:23:00 <oren> my current theory as to how DF can have ok framerate and latency is that the tileset I chose produces compressible images
16:24:31 <oren> in particular, it produces a very limited palette and lots of long stretches of the same color
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18:21:32 <oerjan> you know you're not well enough to leave the house yet when you nearly faint on leaving the shower
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18:41:28 <zzo38> Do you know if any C compiler optimizes stuff like this? x+=strlen(x);
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18:42:53 <oerjan> you mean to while(*x)x++; ?
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18:44:41 <zzo38> Or also optimize other things that involve use of strlen and other string operations
18:45:57 <Melvar> I suppose the strlen might actually be faster, but I don’t know much about these details.
18:46:26 <oren> Almost ceratainly they do but gcc often ends up using the intel SIMD instructions for those (beacuse Ive seen them in the .s files)
18:47:11 <zzo38> Melvar: Maybe; I don't know, hopefully the optimizer though should know that; it is specific to the computer and to circumstances, which is one reason why you should need a automatic optimizer!
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18:48:37 <zzo38> If the optimizer knows what strlen means it should be able to recognize that both codes are the same meaning
18:50:09 <oerjan> logically strlen may do while(*x)x++ internally anyway, in which case it would just be a little expression optimization afterward
18:50:40 <zzo38> Yes, that's what I thought which is that strlen can probably be inlined and then it would figure out.
18:52:18 * oerjan isn't sure this sore throat and palate thing he's having is entirely compatible with this spicy pizza
18:53:02 <oerjan> it's better than a few days ago, anyway.
18:54:25 <shachaf> oerjan: is norwegian pizza as good as i hear it is
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18:56:30 <oren> `whoops thats not what I meant. I meant that the existence of such instructions as MOVSB and SCASB means that common string operations are essentially already implemented in microcode
18:56:30 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: whoops: not found
18:57:46 <int-e> `complain there is no "whoops" command
18:57:47 <HackEgo> Complaint filed. Thank you.
18:58:02 <zzo38> Can't you add such a command by yourself?
18:58:02 <pikhq> At least movsb in particular is certainly implemented in microcode with reasonable performance...
18:58:30 <int-e> zzo38: I could, but then I wouldn't be able to exercise the brilliant 'complain' command.
18:58:44 <oerjan> zzo38: ssh i'm trying to inspire people here
18:58:51 <pikhq> IIRC musl's testing found the best performance for memcpy was just straight-up rep movsl.
18:59:07 <int-e> (It's very efficiently implemented.)
19:00:02 <oren> that's what I would expect yes. Essentially, C strings are used a lot, so to compensate for their retartedness the processors have special instructions
19:00:05 <fizzie> There's some interesting stuff about the processor optimisation of rep movs in the Intel optimisation manual.
19:00:34 <fizzie> memcpy is not really about C strings.
19:01:05 <pikhq> Yeah, memcpy is only "about C strings" in that it's in string.h
19:01:25 <pikhq> Which is... kinda silly TBH. :)
19:01:52 <fizzie> @tell Vorpal It's from a hill near the Google campus in Mountain View, CA.
19:03:04 <HackEgo> [U+25A1 WHITE SQUARE] [U+25EF LARGE CIRCLE]
19:03:56 <oerjan> after all these years of avoiding being caught by dinosaur comics, i'm now reading dmm's fanfic version instead...
19:04:15 <oren> Hmm? I could have sworn there were instructions optimized for asciz strings...
19:04:48 <zzo38> It can be used to copy any memory by telling how many bytes, and strcpy is copy until the null terminator and therefore is use with any null-terminated data (such null-terminated data does not necessarily have to be an ASCII string, although usually it is).
19:05:18 <pikhq> oren: There are instructions for the purpose but IIRC they are not commonly used.
19:06:04 <pikhq> Though a bit more of a pain, you can deal with them somewhat efficiently using word-at-a-time fetches.
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19:07:03 <zzo38> There is no standard memdup either, but SQLite provides a function that is like sprintf but it also allocates the memory to hold the output string.
19:07:21 <pikhq> zzo38: So does glibc, it's asprintf.
19:07:31 <pikhq> It's also quite trivial to implement in terms of snprintf.
19:08:05 <zzo38> You still might run the program on a computer without glibc though
19:08:55 <zzo38> And, the "%llu" code doesn't work properly on Windows it seems like but SQLite's mprintf and snprintf functions do implement it correctly.
19:09:07 <oren> Only problem is lack of corresponding ascanf, taking pointers-to-pointers
19:09:15 <oerjan> finding a computer with SQLite but not glibc is left as an exercise for the reader.
19:09:24 <fizzie> shachaf: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/113389132/Misc/20150319-mtv.jpg
19:09:59 <zzo38> (SQLite has its own printf implementation, as well as its own malloc/realloc/free implementations, and its own random number generator based on ARCFOUR)
19:10:10 <int-e> @check (error "1" :: Bool) .||. True .||. (error "2" :: Bool)
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19:10:36 <zzo38> oerjan: Well, on Windows it uses msvcrt instead I think, it doesn't have glibc?
19:10:45 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
19:10:46 <nvd> I quite like the nick nvd
19:10:50 <nvd> Might stick with it for a while
19:10:52 <oren> So yeah based on looking through my textbook, the instructions I was actually thinking of was something like REPNZ MOVSB or something
19:11:07 <fizzie> oerjan: I think my phone is like that.
19:12:10 <pikhq> Yep, that's an opcode.
19:12:17 <HackEgo> bash: locate: command not found
19:12:44 <oerjan> `run (cat bin/emptylist; echo 'we forgot to implement this command') >bin/whoops; chmod +x bin/whoops
19:12:49 <pikhq> zzo38: MSVC should not be considered a C runtime library but rather a Windows-C runtime library.
19:12:51 <int-e> anyway: grep '^[aeiou]*n[aeiou]*v[aeiou]*d[aeiou]*$' /usr/share/dict/words ===> envied, invade, navaid, nevoid -- need to look up the latter two.
19:12:54 <HackEgo> whoops now what: we forgot to implement this command
19:12:59 <zzo38> As well as `` you can also use ``` if you want it to force to fix the locale setting
19:13:06 <pikhq> The degree to which it fails to implement a reasonable environment is rather spectacular.
19:13:23 <zzo38> pikhq: Yes, I suppose, it is rather the "Windows-C runtime library"
19:13:38 <pikhq> (they have an _snprintf not snprintf and _snprintf *doesn't even work right*. Ugh!)
19:13:47 <oren> nevoid : "in the shape of a nevus"?
19:13:51 <zzo38> But together with MinGW headers I have gotten it to work
19:13:54 <pikhq> (it's especially "nice" that _snprintf does not guarantee null termination of strings.)
19:14:12 <zzo38> MinGW can use snprintf
19:14:42 <pikhq> MinGW has replacements for a smattering of MSVC functions.
19:14:58 <zzo38> Yes, in order to improve its working.
19:15:25 <int-e> NAVAID is for air navigators, nevoid is apparently "similar to nevi", and a nevus is "any congenital anomaly of the skin, including moles and various types of birthmarks." ... well I didn't need to know that.
19:15:27 <zzo38> But still sometimes I need #ifdef _WIN32 mostly just to include code to change stdin/stdout to binary mode for programs that require it.
19:15:46 <pikhq> And to support Unicode at all. :)
19:16:22 <zzo38> If I need Unicode (which is rare) I can put my own implementation of the parts that I need
19:16:45 <pikhq> If MS was sane you'd just use libc and it'd just work.
19:17:43 <zzo38> Yes, but, it doesn't just work; MinGW works though.
19:21:09 <oerjan> <int-e> @check (error "1" :: Bool) .||. True .||. (error "2" :: Bool) <-- huh
19:21:41 <zzo38> And you should rarely need Unicode support anyways.
19:22:24 <zzo38> One program I wrote that does do something with Unicode is VGMCK, which includes a function to convert UTF-8 into UTF-16; no other Unicode-related stuff is needed in such a program.
19:22:52 <oerjan> zzo38: fizzie: i think somehow i read glibc and thought C library
19:24:06 <zzo38> (It implements CESU-8 too, because if you write a converter UTF-8 to UTF-16 it will automatically also work CESU-8 too.)
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20:03:07 <oren> *test* _test_ /test/
20:04:41 <oerjan> bolded underlined normal, here
20:05:26 <oren> I thought /test/ would be italic, but i guess i was wrong
20:08:18 <oerjan> or well, actually the bold is blue, but that's a putty setting
20:09:30 <nortti> if I were to do a brainfuck implementation with disk IO, which API should I use?
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20:12:04 <oren> do you mean the API from the implementation to the disk, or the api the BF program is presened with?
20:13:25 <oerjan> nortti: the ESOAPI, of course!
20:14:27 <oerjan> "EsoAPI may be superseded by PESOIX." ok maybe not
20:14:56 <oerjan> choose your bitrotten api wisely
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00:51:42 <oren> apparently there's a big boxing match right now
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01:31:34 <oren> how do I customize rxvt?
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01:51:13 <oren> WHY IS "Teal" pink!
01:55:51 <AndoDaan> Teal sounds blue, doesn't it. It does for me at least.
02:02:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jelehfish * New user account
02:06:49 <oren> I mean when I set a color in RXVT to be "Teal" it comes out as some sort of pink
02:07:18 <oren> "Dark Cyan" comes out correctly though
02:09:48 <oren> Apparently pink is the default when it can't parse a color
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04:18:18 <zzo38> Do you know if there is a way to load RDF graphs into tables or infoboxes for MediaWiki?
04:20:57 <Sgeo> WTF is wrong with my connection?
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04:24:21 <zzo38> Now I made up a pack of .XI instruments
04:29:22 <zzo38> But I used OpenMPT and it adds a lot of junk on the end of each file
04:31:17 <zzo38> Fortunately AmigaMML will ignore the junk on the end (and hopefully other programs can ignore it too), but still it uses up disk space
04:38:05 <zzo38> Is it possible to add a table to a Redmine wiki?
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04:39:06 <zzo38> Nevermind I figured it out
04:52:05 <zzo38> quintopia: Yes it can but also .xm and .xi and .mod and .s3m and .iti and .mptm
04:54:43 <quintopia> all the same things modplug tracker does
04:54:56 <quintopia> i have an old copy of an openmpt archive on my external hard drive
04:55:03 <quintopia> i don't think i ever tried to use it
04:57:54 <Sgeo> I think my network connection keeps sending corrupt bits or something
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05:21:08 <quintopia> zzo38: would you like another song to try out
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05:39:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42779&oldid=42633 * T.J.S.1 * (+879) Added ><>
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05:58:18 <zzo38> quintopia: To try out what, exactly? What are you asking about?
05:58:39 <zzo38> Also, OpenMPT is ModPlug Tracker
06:10:19 <zzo38> Which program have you used for .MOD/.XM/.IT/.S3M stuff? I want to make the compare table
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06:38:17 <zzo38> I did start to make up the compare table https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Compare_features but it is hardly complete by now; if you have information to contribute then please to do so.
06:39:06 <zzo38> For one thing, AmigaMML does not use a GUI and the other two listed so far require the GUI
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07:02:38 <quintopia> zzo38: MPT can also export mp3s iirc
07:03:22 <zzo38> Yes, you are right it can
07:03:47 <zzo38> I haven't added the section for rendering yet though
07:22:42 <quintopia> are you going to document the original Impulse Tracker
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07:25:41 <zzo38> I don't know much about it
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11:29:52 <FireFly> zzo38: could you make the documentation available in plaintext or HTML, in addition to .doc?
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11:45:10 <FireFly> Oh, it /is/ a plaintext document
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11:46:49 <FireFly> (the web server serves them as Word documents, though)
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12:20:49 <FreeFull> FireFly: Sounds like mimetype detection going wrong
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13:00:04 <oren> Is there a term for the particular format of plaintext that the RFC's are written in?
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13:01:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdebath/deadbeef]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42780&oldid=40110 * Rdebath * (+9) Small addition, get rid of silly license.
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13:58:48 <oerjan> "packing" may not be the right term to use here
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14:36:20 <int-e> oerjan: can you turn a non-pure (namely, it's not deterministic) function into a hole in the type system?
14:37:14 <int-e> oerjan: to make it concrete: https://hackage.haskell.org/package/QuickCheck-safe-0.1/docs/Test-QuickCheck-Safe-Trusted.html
14:39:30 <b_jonas> int-e: sure, just like how UnsafePerformIO can pick a hole in the type system
14:40:51 <b_jonas> int-e: take a non-deterministic value of type (Either Int [Int]), then make it return a right list once, then when the caller is sure it's returned a list, make it return a left integer so the caller tries to dereference the integer as a pointer when it traverses the list
14:41:08 <b_jonas> it might not really work that way with Int, but that's the idea
14:43:27 <int-e> Maybe in the next version I'll just hide those functions away.
14:44:10 <int-e> @let import Test.QuickCheck.Safe.Trusted
14:44:11 <lambdabot> Test.QuickCheck.Safe.Trusted: Can't be safely imported!
14:44:11 <lambdabot> The package (QuickCheck-safe-0.1) the module resides in isn't trusted.
14:44:29 <b_jonas> behind an IO or other usual abstraction for nondeterminism?
14:44:46 <lambdabot> STestable prop => QuickCheck-2.8:Test.QuickCheck.Random.QCGen -> prop -> String
14:47:29 <int-e> b_jonas: The trouble is that putting things in IO makes SafeHaskell useless.
14:47:39 <Melvar> b_jonas: I’m not sure what you mean by “once the caller is sure it’s returned a list, make it return …”
14:48:00 <b_jonas> Melvar: yeah, that might not really work that way... I dunno
14:48:12 <Melvar> Is the caller going to call once to check and once to project?
14:49:09 <int-e> b_jonas: And that's what happened with @check: Test.QuickCheck is *safe*, but code in lambdabot would have to run quickCheck somehow. And it's possible to embed arbitrary IO actions in a QuickCheck Property.
14:49:36 <b_jonas> int-e: does it involve imprecise exceptions?
14:50:30 <int-e> It should not, the exceptions should all be synchronous (really, they should all be error calls).
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15:38:37 <int-e> oerjan: it should pretty much look as before
15:39:59 <oerjan> my guess is that ghc would probably be within its _rights_ to mess up anything that has a nondeterministic result, but probably doesn't do it to extent of evaluating it twice _and_ mixing information from the two branches...
15:40:39 <oerjan> but honestly i don't know.
15:42:34 <int-e> Sigh, that was a lousy bugreport. "QuickCheck-safe-0.1 does not compile" ... yes. Sure. That happens if you blindly relax the lower bound on a package.
15:43:57 <oerjan> "Your bug report does not compile" hth
15:44:41 <int-e> I did "fix" it in the end ... it turned out that QuickCheck-2.7 works fine except for one little function from 2.8 that I used.
15:46:00 <int-e> Well, hopefully. let me verify that...
15:46:16 <int-e> Dependencies are hard.
15:47:06 <int-e> (I tested 2.7.6 which by PVP might have additional functions compared to 2.7...)
15:47:40 <oerjan> Painful Versioning Policy
15:48:49 <int-e> API isn't the problem, safehaskell is...
15:49:01 <int-e> (Test.QuickCheck: Can't be safely imported!)
15:52:33 <int-e> 2.7.3 is the first working version...
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16:06:29 <oren> ooh this font has lowercase numbers
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16:07:55 <oren> like where 7 and 9 have lines that go down, and 6 goes up
16:09:23 <oren> Ok apparently they're supposed to be called "text figures"
16:11:41 <oren> http://ctrlv.in/568661
16:27:54 <Melvar> So, in German, the word “Variable” is a nouned adjective, and thus declines like an adjective. But some forms (the strong ones) are so rare I was genuinely confused when I encountered one. (Strong genitive plural, specifically.)
16:30:20 <Melvar> variable: Oh my, sorry, I really, truly hadn’t noticed you and your name here before I said that. That was prompted entirely by seeing the unusual form again.
16:30:40 <variable> Melvar: I learned something, so its all good
16:33:01 <Melvar> “exponentiell in der Anzahl Variabler” i.e. “exponential in the number of variables”, in reference to the running time of an algorithm.
16:33:25 <myname> "anzahl variabler" sounds plain wrong
16:33:37 <myname> "anzahl variablen" is what i would say
16:37:39 <Melvar> I would too, but apparently this is not universal.
16:39:12 <oerjan> i think logically it should be Variabler, because der modifies Anzahl, not Variabler. take it from this norwegian.
16:40:57 * oerjan now tries to check what norwegian does
16:41:57 <olsner> in english you would have "the number of variables" which would suggest using genitive case, but swedish does it like the quoted german (antalet variabler)
16:42:23 <oerjan> "antall variabler" 4370 hits"antall variable" 1170 hits
16:43:21 <oerjan> olsner: note that in swedish and norwegian the -r ending is the nounlike one, while in german it's the unusually adjective-like one
16:43:55 <int-e> myname: I would avoid the issue and say "in der Anzahl der Variablen"
16:44:35 <oerjan> oh and of course we scandinavians don't let the genitive get anywhere close of this
16:45:01 <Melvar> How about “in der Anzahl Veränderlicher”?
16:45:09 <olsner> hmm, so the variant with Variabler might be "exponential in the varying number" rather than "number of variables"?
16:47:03 <int-e> olsner: it's not a varying number, it's a number of [things that vary]
16:47:46 <int-e> At least I'd never read "varying number" tho mean anything but a number that varies in English.
16:48:51 <int-e> Melvar: Wegen Deiner [eigentlich: Deinetwegen, aber das geläufige "Wegen Dir" ist falsch.] haben wir jetzt eine Grammatikdiskussion, schäm dich. ;-)
16:49:26 <myname> int-e: i like "wegen deiner" :)
16:49:47 <Melvar> I’ve come up with that one myself independently I think.
16:50:47 <olsner> int-e: what would varying number be in german?
16:50:58 <int-e> olsner: eine veränderliche Zahl
16:51:05 <int-e> olsner: word order and capitalization matters here
16:52:49 <int-e> anyway, I'm done with my one day of hacking on lambdabot (only took two days)... what next...
16:53:15 <Melvar> Or “eine variable Anzahl”, to keep it as close as possible to the previous. “eine variable Anzahl Variable[nr]” is then “a variable number of variables”.
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16:53:54 <Melvar> constant: Getting annoyed at the hilights?
16:54:12 <constant> Melvar: the rate of highlights in this channel and others yeah
16:54:17 <Melvar> Of course, the same problem arises with “Konstante”.
16:54:19 <constant> so I figured I'd pick a less common word
16:54:26 <int-e> @quote no.variables
16:54:26 <lambdabot> cjs says: I have to explain this shit to people. I mean, I start out right, "Hey, you know how you always have these bugs because what you thought was in the variable is not there?" And I get all of these nods of agreement. "Well, I've found a new language that solves that problem." Audience: "Ooooh! How?" Me: "There's no variables!" And then
16:54:26 <lambdabot> they all start moving away from me slowly....
16:55:27 <Melvar> A stack-based language or what was that about?
16:55:30 <int-e> . o O ( konstante Verwirrung Konstanter )
16:55:35 <int-e> Melvar: Haskell, actually.
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16:57:36 <int-e> . o O ( Das Ergebnis sind konsternierte Konstanten. )
16:57:40 <Melvar> Oh, so the described problem is a variable having been unexpectedly mutated or unexpectedly not mutated?
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16:58:18 <int-e> Melvar: Yes. It's a memorable quote and in light of variable is now known as constant it felt appropriate :)
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17:00:58 <int-e> how about some food...
17:01:07 <int-e> oerjan: have you eaten yet?
17:01:45 <int-e> That was re: <oerjan> i seem to be procrastinating eating again <-- (I know what that feels like)
17:04:55 <oren> @quote constant
17:04:55 <lambdabot> Dickie says: Janeway constantly frustrated me. I would have had a difficult time under her leadership.
17:05:27 <oren> @quote constant
17:05:27 <lambdabot> skew says: Swapping is just a constant factor
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17:16:10 <oerjan> int-e: no, planning for pizza in a while
17:16:58 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
17:17:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: given that you tried to reverse engineer the elements of the BANCStar language from only a few samples, no implementation, maybe you want to try this similar language reverse engineering task:
17:17:23 <oerjan> so far the timing is right
17:17:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: reverse engineering R2's beep language in Darths and Droids, see http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=8454 for spoilers
17:17:49 <oerjan> (for that. it's horribly wrong for everything else, like buying groceries.)
17:18:25 <oerjan> b_jonas: hey stop that, i'm procrastinating reading that forum!
17:19:06 <oerjan> i might actually catch up to that thread soon, i've nearly caught up on the d&d main subforum
17:20:01 <oerjan> right now the immediate thing is to catch up on the actual _comics_ for today.
17:20:13 <oerjan> except there was this pizza thing ->
17:24:04 <Sgeo> Why is my network connection so terrible?
17:24:29 <Sgeo> Is there some large file somewhere that I can download and immediately see if it's corrupt?
17:24:59 <Sgeo> Like an online /dev/zero
17:27:04 <mitchs_> a lot of the time checksums are given when downloading large programs
17:27:21 <mitchs_> i mean, if that suits your purpose
17:27:25 <Sgeo> Well, Cygwin checksums keep failing
17:27:56 <Sgeo> But I want to see if it's really a fault on my end. And also something I can do on my phone to see if it's my computer or my network connection
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17:37:17 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, it's addictive
17:37:52 <b_jonas> I didn't mean to go into it deeply, so I only tried to figure out how numeric literals are expressed in that language,
17:38:25 <b_jonas> but that's led a bit far, eventually to why "laser" is a word ending in "-zz-zip" where "zip" means zero.
17:39:15 <b_jonas> now I'll have to reformat the corpus to a HTML page because the forum markup isn't enough
17:54:56 <oerjan> b_jonas: it might very well be that some words have more than one precise meaning
17:55:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I think "bip" is ambiguous
17:55:30 <b_jonas> but "zip" actually means zero there
17:56:22 <b_jonas> oerjan: by the way, shellshear (who has created the puzzle) says “All beeps have a canonical meaning.”, interpret that however you want
17:56:33 <oerjan> but it could also mean "nothing"
17:58:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: the problem is that "zz" only occurs once more (as a separate word), in #1174, where "e-bap-dok-pop-zz-pikilip" gives the damage amount of the shock probe
17:58:38 <b_jonas> (the overcharged shock probe; normally it deals only 1d4)
17:59:05 <b_jonas> so I thought at first that "kipgidip-zz-zip" also referred to the damage dealt by the laser beam
17:59:13 <b_jonas> which confused me totally, because that doesn't make sense
17:59:17 <b_jonas> but it doesn't refer to the damage
18:01:12 <oerjan> well as i said i haven't got to the spoiler thread yet, nor have i tried to solve it myself
18:01:55 <oerjan> although i'm vaguely wondering how much of a conlanger shellshear is - is there any truly weird grammar here
18:02:12 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's no grammar present
18:02:20 <b_jonas> there are almost no grammatical marker words,
18:02:36 <b_jonas> and it's assumed the grammar structure is carried in the “inflections” of the beep tones
18:02:51 <b_jonas> which aren't shown in the comic
18:03:09 <b_jonas> specifically, Shellshear says “Correctly translating the beeps will result in a kind of pidgin. There is assumed to be some nuance in the in-game inflection of the beeps.”
18:03:26 -!- constant has changed nick to trout.
18:03:44 <b_jonas> and from the sentences that we understand correctly, it seems there are no grammatical markers, in particular, no sentence separator, and no "e" or "li" to separate verbs from nouns
18:05:10 <b_jonas> and I don't think there's anything marking subclauses either
18:08:09 <oerjan> of course all my previous encounters with the CIs' puzzles can be summed up as "htf can anyone solve these things"
18:10:12 <oerjan> ok maybe not the droidikar one but i didn't really get interested in that.
18:11:01 <HackEgo> CI is a confidential informant
18:11:09 <int-e> . o O ( `define CI is short for Constant Irritation. )
18:11:34 <int-e> (Google suggests Cursed Island)
18:12:30 <oerjan> `learn The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles.
18:12:37 <HackEgo> Learned 'ci': The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles.
18:13:27 <oerjan> `learn The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
18:13:28 <HackEgo> Learned 'ci': The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
18:14:59 <oerjan> nvd: i'm pretty sure this explains everything hth
18:19:07 <boily> I thought Taneb invented himself.
18:19:20 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
18:19:29 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
18:20:20 <oerjan> of course we've no proof Taneb _isn't_ one of the CIs, he's admitted to australian citizenship already.
18:23:01 <oerjan> also it is pretty well established that taneb came here via the IWC forum.
18:23:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: no no no, you're getting it wrong.
18:23:51 <b_jonas> oerjan: the CIs, namely at least DMM and shellshear are designing sadistic hard to solve puzzles
18:23:54 <int-e> oerjan: lost without context, nothing unusual
18:24:03 <b_jonas> but this one is worse, because Shellshear says
18:24:12 <oerjan> int-e: http://www.darthsanddroids.net/faq.html hth
18:24:25 <b_jonas> “The language is not a puzzle per se. I haven't evaluated how easy it is to solve, except to note what was necessary for Ben to work out.”
18:24:43 <b_jonas> shellshear also has't originally created Droidikar as a puzzle
18:24:53 <b_jonas> which is why there are some unguessable card names in it
18:24:57 <b_jonas> for which he had to give hints
18:25:07 <oerjan> you mean that explains how i managed to guess _any_ of the card hth htht
18:25:12 <b_jonas> if it was a puzzle, he'd have deliberately made all the cards guessable
18:25:37 <oerjan> *+actually working script
18:25:40 <b_jonas> sure, some card names like Tattooine and R2-D2 are obvious
18:26:25 <b_jonas> also, I think DMM has helped making the hints for Droidikar so it's more solvable
18:26:42 <b_jonas> but he might not have done so here
18:26:48 <int-e> oerjan: ah, that explains CI. Significant overlap with http://puzzle.cisra.com.au/credits.php ... which is where "CI puzzles" somehow led me.
18:26:56 <boily> quintopia: quinthellopia. even though being Tanebly invented is a great honour, I prefer to remain uninvented hth
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18:27:29 <b_jonas> which CI do you supposed Taneb is by the way?
18:27:57 <oerjan> int-e: also (GOD GOOGLE WHY DO YOU HAVE TO MUNGE URLS) http://puzzle.cisra.com.au/
18:28:24 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, those are the puzzles DMM creates as solvable in theory but damned hard
18:29:09 <b_jonas> I might be able to convince zzo38 though, he does sufficiently crazy things like this
18:29:33 <oerjan> b_jonas: taneb would obviously be an unlisted undercover CI, dug
18:29:48 * oerjan considers lashing his keyboard
18:29:56 <b_jonas> hmm, there's a photo of the CIs somewhere, let me check that
18:30:09 <int-e> oerjan: It doesn't help that CI means "Corporate Identity" and "Continuous Integration" as well.
18:30:14 -!- copumpkin has quit (Ping timeout: 250 seconds).
18:30:27 <int-e> The former could reasonably be pluralised.
18:30:38 -!- contrapumpkin has changed nick to copumpkin.
18:33:32 <b_jonas> ah here, http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/3218.html links to it
18:34:20 <b_jonas> only six people, so no secret undercover member
18:35:27 <oerjan> int-e: as a mathematician you should be ashamed of not being able to pluralize the latter hth
18:35:55 <oerjan> now go invent a meaning and write a paper on them twh
18:36:30 <oerjan> boily: that would have been *+h, not *h hth
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18:36:56 <int-e> oerjan: A mathematician, hmm.
18:37:43 * int-e is in a corner of theoretical computer science that does mostly logic and discrete mathematics. Integrals rarely come up.
18:38:18 <copumpkin> int-e: how about ends and coends??
18:38:25 <oerjan> well invent a meaning that's CS-related, then.
18:38:53 <int-e> copumpkin: abstract nonsense is often too abstract for me
18:39:21 * int-e hasn't grokked adjoint functors
18:39:45 <shachaf> adjoint functors are the best
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18:40:14 <oerjan> int-e: but if you used them for integrating averages you could say they were ends to a mean hth
18:41:41 * int-e wonders how to best PUNish oerjan.
18:43:06 <oerjan> i did feel like reaching a new level there
18:44:08 <oerjan> boily: adjoint functors are simple you just need to learn how to split monads hth
18:46:51 <oerjan> try this handy monad accelerator here. keep it away from profunctors.
18:55:31 <boily> this feels like splitting the atom. can be used for good, but should be left to professionals with a good sense of ethics.
18:57:02 <quintopia> boily: you can't be uninvented. you already exist and knowledge of your existence is widespread
18:58:05 <boily> damn. I can't counter that.
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19:01:01 <oerjan> boily: so basically, you've been decohered.
19:01:03 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:01:04 <int-e> you can invent similar people and sow confusion that way
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19:01:48 <int-e> . o O ( I'd /nick booly if there'd be a way to limit it to just this one channel. )
19:01:53 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:02:14 <shachaf> take inspiration from copumpkin
19:02:26 <boily> int-e: don't you dare steal my identity you evil twin!
19:02:49 <int-e> copumpkin: it wouldn't be stolen, merely blurred.
19:03:15 <oerjan> copumpkin: i see you _still_ haven't started using pro- or bi-, this just won't do hth
19:03:28 <shachaf> p. sure i've seen propumpkin around hth
19:03:31 <copumpkin> it just usually doesn't get that far
19:04:26 <boily> I think I saw contrapumpkin once.
19:04:36 <copumpkin> yeah, contrapumpkin is fairly common
19:04:38 <lambdabot> bucky says: The invention of the game of limited and terminal local awareness that we call "life" is in contradistinction to the concept of eternally total cosmic knowledge, intellect, and wisdom, whose totality of comprehensive comprehension would answeringly cancel out all questions and all problems, which would result in the eternally timeless,
19:04:38 <lambdabot> sublime 0=0 equation of absolute perfection.
19:04:40 <copumpkin> especially when I'm on a bus with spotty wifi
19:05:03 <int-e> fungot: help me out there, please
19:05:04 <fungot> int-e: like mos docs.... whats up with that)
19:05:06 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
19:05:46 <fungot> olsner: perhaps you could tell your nickname when registering it. if you translate your until to a letrec?
19:05:47 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
19:05:59 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -q oer*!*@*.
19:06:04 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
19:06:16 -!- copumpkin has quit (Quit: My MacBook Pro has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
19:06:31 <oerjan> our ban list is getting scarily long
19:07:26 <shachaf> oerjan: why were you +q twh
19:08:18 <int-e> how do we know that -q oer*!*@* actually removed anything?
19:08:55 <shachaf> i suspect it didn't because oerjan was talking earlier
19:09:31 <oerjan> shachaf: people were playing around with confusing nicks the other day so i decided to abuse my powers
19:09:57 <oerjan> shachaf: also i made an exemption for myself, naturally
19:10:04 <int-e> boily: "quiet" .. people can join and listen but their messages are blocked
19:10:37 <oerjan> interestingly anyone can see the +b and +q lists, but not the +e exemption list...
19:11:04 <oerjan> shachaf: /mode #esoteric +e $a:oerjan
19:11:17 <oerjan> excepts my account from all other bans
19:12:33 <oerjan> it's sort of redundant when you're an op, usually...
19:13:27 <boily> oerjan is a devious op. a devop.
19:24:14 <b_jonas> typical. a nice simple mathematical question that I understand, answered by a half page long algebraic technobabble of which I don't understand a word. => those who are
19:24:24 <b_jonas> => http://mathoverflow.net/q/204464/5340
19:27:13 <zzo38> I did not intend to including nonfree software in my list of compare feature and I do not know if Impulse Tracker and Fast Tracker are now free software or not; I don't expect it to be but I don't know?
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19:28:30 <boily> zzo38: what about milky?
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19:29:00 <boily> (hmm... milky tracker seems dead now.)
19:29:27 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
19:29:35 <zzo38> boily: I did put Miltky Tracker on the list though
19:30:24 <zzo38> If you want to look, it is: https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Compare_features
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19:31:12 <boily> milky has built-in synthesis.
19:31:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
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19:32:04 <zzo38> O, it does? How does its built-in synthesis work? Let me see the documentation again
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19:33:48 <boily> unless we're talking about different types of built-in syntheses. I played with it a long time ago, trying my hand at freeform drawn waves ^^
19:33:59 <boily> (lots of distortion and clicks, but it works quite well.)
19:36:26 <zzo38> O, freeform drawing now I put another column (not yet saved)
19:41:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: (repeating from two and a half hours ago) given that you tried to reverse engineer the elements of the BANCStar language from only a few samples, no implementation, maybe you want to try this similar language reverse engineering task:
19:41:58 <b_jonas> reverse engineering R2's Pating language in Darths and Droids, see http://www.irregularwebcomic.net/draakslair/viewtopic.php?t=8454 for how much people have figured out so far
19:49:52 <zzo38> boily: What I meant is in AmigaMML you can type such thing as @0 = "# L30" to make a square wave with 15/16 duty, or you can type something like @2 = "+54A4G+34A4H-P2A2G" 1000 to create a sample with FM synthesis, or whatever
19:52:08 <boily> ah, the programmative kind. not quite the same indeed.
19:53:20 -!- trout has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
19:54:06 <b_jonas> wait, is that "+54A4G+34A4H-P2A2G" a BASIC PLAY string?
19:54:32 <b_jonas> hmm no it's not, that couldn't start with "+" I think
19:55:16 <zzo38> No it isn't; in AmigaMML if the instrument filename starts with + then it is FM synthesis; it uses its own syntax
19:56:41 <zzo38> You can also start a instrument filename with # for a simpler synthesizer where you can use "L" for square waves, "N" for saw waves, and "V" for triangle wave; you can combine multiple waveforms added together too, with different frequencies; the only option the example above uses is the duty though.
19:57:39 <zzo38> But if it does not start with one of the special symbols then the text in the quotation marks is instead the name of a instrument file, which is either Amigasam or .XI format.
19:58:36 <b_jonas> oh dear, this is getting leaning toothpicky: I'm matching bbcode with perl regexen
20:00:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: did you modify that description of that binary story format that you showed us last time?
20:00:30 <zzo38> Do you mean the OASYS format? I do not remember
20:00:33 <oren> Idea: regex dialect in which the widechar versions of characters are used
20:01:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: I don't know what its name was
20:02:39 <zzo38> It isn't a particularly good VM, but previously there was no documentation, and still it should be easy to compile OASYS binaries into native code or other VMs
20:03:13 <oren> so the above would become /［／b］/
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20:04:40 <zzo38> oren: Or another way, use the high bit set for actual character matching (including the "b"); or possibly the bitwise complement; use a editor that support displaying such by reverse video
20:05:24 <oerjan> b_jonas: psst if you're using actual perl then you can use a different character than /
20:05:37 <b_jonas> oerjan: yes, I'm actually using a different delimiter instead of /
20:05:49 <b_jonas> and it's needed in replacement text too
20:06:17 <oerjan> do you actually need \]
20:06:54 <b_jonas> at least either you need "${a}[b]" or "$a\[b]" in replacement text because otherwise perls tries to parse it as the interpolation of an array element
20:06:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: Look at the AmigaMML documentation to learn how the command is working; also if you have account you can try to fix the wiki by yourself
20:06:59 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, probably not \]
20:07:09 <oerjan> hm wasn't there something...
20:07:16 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's on the wiki? I thought it was on your webpage
20:07:26 <zzo38> It his this wiki https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Compare_features
20:07:27 <b_jonas> and you asked for comments and then I gave some
20:07:36 <zzo38> It is a Redmine wiki.
20:07:51 <b_jonas> I meant the story language description
20:07:57 <zzo38> That's just a text file though
20:08:56 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you ack what I said about the Pating language thing though?
20:09:23 <zzo38> Unfortunately I don't know; just use what is already written for now.
20:09:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: ah it's \Q...\E
20:10:23 <b_jonas> oerjan: I had that too in the code, for the intended purpose
20:10:43 <b_jonas> but that's unrelated to the bbcode thing
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20:13:27 <oerjan> b_jonas: well you could do \Q[/b]\E , no?
20:13:50 <b_jonas> oerjan: technically yes, but that's not usually better than \[/b]
20:14:18 <b_jonas> and you have to close the \Q for regex meta-characters like .*
20:14:53 <b_jonas> I think you can also do m"[[]/b]"
20:17:02 <Melvar> What’s the one above supposed to represent?
20:20:15 <oerjan> Melvar: i'm pretty sure the first one is there on a quota for disabled people
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20:23:33 <oerjan> oren: you need at least two extra spaces in front due to the nick length difference
20:23:37 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:24:15 <Melvar> (Which is why it looks wrong in clients that right-align nicks.)
20:24:35 <Melvar> (Unless the instigator has a length-6 nick.)
20:24:43 <oren> it depends on the client?
20:25:01 <oerjan> zzo38 probably sees something entirely insane
20:25:17 <oerjan> (in fact so do i in the web logs)
20:25:23 <zzo38> Well, it can also depend on things other than the nick, and on how the CTRL+C codes are interpreted
20:25:23 <int-e> I need to re-read my Sherlock Holmes...
20:25:37 <oren> I thought < oren> was just part of the message
20:25:56 <b_jonas> hehe, that's like http://www.xkcd.com/276/
20:25:57 <int-e> (The Adventure of the Dancing Men)
20:26:16 <zzo38> Even if your nick is length 6, the stuff after the nickname before the message can be of a different length.
20:26:36 <oerjan> oren: nope, in irc syntax it's really something like :oren PRIVMSG :I thought < oren> was just part of the message
20:27:03 <b_jonas> oerjan: there's a !user@host and a #channel in there
20:27:04 <oren> zzo38: what stuff after the nick before the massage?
20:27:05 <Melvar> :oren!~oren@TOROON0949W-LP130-01-1242511869.dsl.bell.ca PRIVMSG #esoteric :I thought < oren> was just part of the message
20:27:12 <b_jonas> and the !user@host is VERY varying length
20:27:19 <b_jonas> in the sense that it can be very short or very long
20:27:21 <zzo38> oren: The username, hostname, command, and channel name.
20:27:26 <b_jonas> (I can look up exact limits)
20:27:27 <oerjan> b_jonas: i was so unsure about the !user@host that i forgot all about the #channel
20:27:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: the channel matches though
20:27:51 <zzo38> (Although the command and channel name will always match anyways)
20:28:08 <b_jonas> (oh, the channel is also variable length, and the limits on this stuff are also wildly varying among irc networks)
20:29:20 <b_jonas> it's crazy because the length of the nick!user@host #channel changes how long lines can be transmitted without truncation like crazy
20:29:51 <oren> ＾what is that pink Melvar then?
20:30:43 <b_jonas> Melvar: no, that would be stupid. myndzi could perhaps reply with a notice though, but as you see he doesn't
20:30:53 <Melvar> oren: You mean the notice? That’s NOTICE instead of PRIVMSG.
20:31:09 <Melvar> (I don’t know what your client colors pink.)
20:31:10 <b_jonas> I wonder, does myndzi sometimes trigger other bots?
20:31:43 <j-bot> b_jonas: \o> <o) \o> <o) \o> <o) \o> <o) \o> <o) \o> <o) \o> <o) \o>
20:32:02 <j-bot> b_jonas: \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_
20:32:07 <oerjan> b_jonas: too long line
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20:32:12 <j-bot> b_jonas: \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o) \o_ -o)
20:32:35 <oren> those penises don't trigger hackego to say \: command not found
20:32:36 -!- Sgeo_ has joined.
20:32:36 <j-bot> b_jonas: _o/ <o) _o/ <o) _o/ <o) _o/ <o) _o/ <o)
20:33:13 <oerjan> oren: well they're not on the beginning of a line. but i also think myndzi fills everything with so much control codes it wouldn't trigger any way.
20:33:18 <b_jonas> oren: what? isn't hackego's trigger the backtick? I haven't seen backtick used by myndzi
20:33:38 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
20:33:38 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
20:33:38 <myndzi> >\ c.c /'\ /'\| | /< c.c /'\ | |\| |\ c.c /|
20:33:40 <b_jonas> oerjan: oh yeah, lambdabot cleverly uses some invisible non-ascii stuff at the start of its replies
20:33:59 <oerjan> b_jonas: so do HackEgo and EgoBot
20:34:19 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
20:34:23 <oren> oh crap now I know what's wrong with this font. I cant tell between ` and '
20:36:58 <oren> http://ctrlv.in/568793
20:37:45 <b_jonas> (though I don't bolt it, just use different colors)
20:37:54 <b_jonas> (bold might not look good)
20:38:04 <b_jonas> (it's fake bold, no bold variant of the font)
20:38:16 <b_jonas> (also, thanks for testing)
20:39:05 <oerjan> that's a very penisy font you've got there.
20:39:52 <oerjan> it exaggerates those chars a lot more than this new courier thing
20:39:53 <oren> the ` and ' chars make better penises than in most other fonts
20:40:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: my font exaggerates most chars.
20:40:17 <b_jonas> not only the penissy ones.
20:42:16 <oren> O0o Il1|7 ^~ S5 Z2
20:42:33 <b_jonas> oren: B8 was the last straw for me
20:42:41 <b_jonas> I misread a hexadecimal number
20:44:21 <b_jonas> it gets funnier when you look at non-ascii characters that I distinguish with dots and protursions
20:44:42 <oren> I was using "unispace" today... It looks cool but doesn't work
20:46:20 <oren> capital alpha has an underdot
20:46:28 <b_jonas> and only basic greek (for math) and even that's very ugly
20:48:11 <oren> your german s thingy is not the same as beta
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20:50:22 <b_jonas> there's also |¦ and `'"“‟”‘‛’´˝′″ (ascii, then quotation marks, then standalone accents, then primes)
20:50:43 <b_jonas> oren: of course it's not. this isn't a cp437 font
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20:51:39 <b_jonas> oh, and ˈ the phonetic stress symbol
20:54:16 <b_jonas> and there's stuff like /∕¦|∣│\∖
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21:14:28 <b_jonas> boily: half of it is greek
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21:15:47 <Melvar> > var $ map toLower "PΡEΕ"
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22:37:37 <oren> What's up with sgeo?
22:38:07 <oren> his isp must suuuuck
22:38:24 <oerjan> is connection is up. then down. then up. then down. hth.
22:38:51 <Sgeo_> I think it's something in software.
22:39:06 <Sgeo_> A VM using a bridged connection works fine. A VM using NAT is not.
22:40:19 <Sgeo_> oren, please don't say that. I work for my ISP
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22:40:49 <oerjan> his isp must suck, and it's all his fault hth
22:41:04 * oerjan now whistles maniackally
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22:41:20 <SgeoPhone> This phone also connected through the same Wi-Fi
22:41:32 <oren> At last, the answer to THEN WHO WAS PHONE
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23:12:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fish]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42781&oldid=42776 * 0x0dea * (+1117) Add Brainfuck interpreter
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23:17:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[EsoInterpreters]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42782&oldid=42571 * 0x0dea * (+514) Update EsoInterpreters
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23:26:01 <Somelauw> I have taken a look at some of the brainfuck algorithms on the wiki and I don't think this code works for when the divisor is either 0 or 1: https://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_algorithms#Divmod_algorithm
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00:03:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Somelauw * New user account
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00:30:00 <Soni> how do I write this syntax stuff? https://gist.github.com/SoniEx2/bf80ff173df979501f3e
00:34:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42783&oldid=38053 * Somelauw * (+540) Comment about case in which divmod algorithm doesn't work
00:36:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck algorithms]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42784&oldid=42735 * Somelauw * (+57) /* Divmod algorithm */ Comment about division by 0 or 1. (See discussion)
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03:04:17 <zzo38> What is the URI to identify a LADSPA plugin? LV2 supports URIs but LADSPA only usese a number; how to form it into a URI? (One way would be to prefix it by "urn:ladspa:" and use that as the URI.) Also what URIs identify VST plugins?
03:07:05 <zzo38> (An alternative would be to use UUIDs if the people who made LADSPA were to purchase and destroy a network interface card, and add the LADSPA ID to the time they acquired the network interface card, and to use that as the URI.)
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03:12:37 <zzo38> If you want to create a LV2 plugin that is compatible with a LADSPA or VST plugin, it would help to use the same URI to identify it, so that programs that use different kind of plugins can load the corresponding one by using the same identifier, if one exists.
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03:13:26 <zzo38> OK now I see that VST plugins have a four-byte ID
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03:36:23 <zzo38> Is there a URN scheme for reverse domain name notation (as used in Java and UTI and so on)?
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03:47:44 <zzo38> It looks like a lot of things that don't have URN schemes
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05:06:40 <zzo38> What is the URI for my Freenode account?
05:42:20 <shachaf> I don't think Freenode accounts have URIs.
05:43:54 <zzo38> shachaf: I asked on #freenode channel and they told me it is <irc://irc.freenode.net/nick> so that's what I used.
05:44:07 <shachaf> That's for the nick, not the account.
05:50:38 <zzo38> O, well, then what is the proper URI?
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05:57:12 <b_jonas> agreed, I think that's for the nick
05:59:59 <int-e> . o O ( hmm, it's a question, but why is it interesting? )
06:01:26 <zzo38> They told me that the only thing wrong with what I have is that the RDF triple <irc://irc.freenode.net/zzo38> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/accountServiceHomePage> <http://freenode.net/> is actually supposed to be <irc://irc.freenode.net/zzo38> <http://xmlns.com/foaf/0.1/accountServiceHomePage> <http://www.freenode.net/> and I did change it now.
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06:05:02 <HackEgo> 1042) <shachaf> your first mistake was making your second mistake
06:05:06 <shachaf> i don't even know what that was about
06:06:41 <zzo38> I found out that there are some unregistered URN schemes in use, at least these ones: tree:tiger, sha1, bitprint, ed2k, aich, kzhash, btih, md5. If you know of others please notify me. However in order to avoid the problem now I have xurn: scheme which is a bit different; my draft lists the following XURN schemes: bible, doi, icao, ladspa, mac, mime, mud, null, pokemon, rdn, vst.
06:07:08 <int-e> zzo38: I'm afraid I'm doing this too and I wish people would call me out on that, but could you please provide *some* context for those questions, like "In the context of RDF, what is the URI for my Freenode account?"?
06:07:50 <zzo38> int-e: It doesn't have to be only for RDF; such URI can be used as an identifier wherever an identifier which is a URI is going to be used, it isn't limited to RDF.
06:08:07 <int-e> zzo38: But RDF is your motivation for asking it.
06:10:10 <zzo38> There are other kind of identifiers too (UUID, ISBN, OID, etc) and there are URI formats for specifying such kind of identifiers too. However, Freenode accounts are not identified by a UUID (or, if it is, it isn't displayed anywhere and therefore isn't useful).
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06:22:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'm using null: as an unofficial url scheme,
06:23:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: the perlmonks link syntax uses a ton of link types that start with a keyword followed by a colon, but they're not really urls because they don't follow url syntax, eg. the rest of the url can have spaces.
06:23:47 <zzo38> <mid:12345@example.org> <xurn:mime:subject> "You didn't win anything!" . I made up the way to support such thing now inside of a RDF graph
06:24:21 <zzo38> b_jonas: O, you are using <null:> do you mean by itself without stuff after the colon or what?
06:24:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: both itself and with stuff after the colon
06:24:50 <zzo38> What stuff after the colon, and what does your null: scheme do?
06:25:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: is svn:// and svn+ssh:// registered? subversion is using them
06:25:42 <b_jonas> http://svnbook.red-bean.com/en/1.7/svn.basic.in-action.html#svn.basic.in-action.wc.tbl-1
06:26:18 <zzo38> b_jonas: Wikipedia says svn: is unofficial.
06:27:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: Basically, I generate the link tree on my homepage from a text file where each line creates a link. The line is made up of four parts, one is the link text, and one is the link destination.
06:27:14 <b_jonas> However, there are headers that aren't links, and there the url is null:
06:27:54 <b_jonas> and also headers that are supposed to be formatted such that they are the same link together with the first lower level entry below them, though this formatting isn't implemented in the renderer, they're marked with null:next
06:28:01 <b_jonas> http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=933109 shows a short example
06:28:06 <zzo38> O, I suppose that is similar to my <xurn:null> then, although mine uses only exactly that URI and not any other. For an error condition I use the URI <about:invalid> though.
06:28:34 <b_jonas> These urls don't leak into the html by the way.
06:32:55 <b_jonas> I don't know how others use the null: scheme
06:33:21 <b_jonas> I'm not even sure whether I tried to look it up when I made this convention, or just pulled it off my backside.
06:35:07 <zzo38> I don't know either, but I anyways use a different URI and it doesn't support things like null:next or whatever
06:38:44 <b_jonas> is this xurn: something that exists elsewhere?
06:38:45 <zzo38> But, I did it independently anyways
06:38:58 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, I made it up
06:41:08 <zzo38> The document is http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/xurn.txt (I also list schemes with "urn:" which are not registered too, but do not describe them).
06:41:21 <b_jonas> in Questionable Content, wtf is Momo doing in a bed? she's specifically said she doesn't use a bed earlier.
06:41:47 <zzo38> Some of these things may be difficult to register by IANA though (they seem to want resolvers for one thing?)
06:42:45 <zzo38> And, if you think a new XURN scheme should be added to my draft, simply notify me; such things as resolvers or security considerations or contact information or whatever is not required (an RFC is not required either).
06:44:40 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know? Maybe, they mean, don't normally using the bed
06:47:54 <fizzie> b_jonas: I have a feeling a bed was mentioned, later on.
06:50:11 <fizzie> b_jonas: I might be imagining that; but still, people can change their minds. (I do remember the earlier no-bed-needed comic too.)
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06:58:42 <nvd> Aaaaah what relevant skills and experience do I have
07:35:09 <zzo38> There are several complications involved in the xurn:bible: scheme. I tried to address some of them, but any Biblical scholars can also try to help me with this.
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09:42:37 <zzo38> Currently my comparison is including the programs: AmigaMML, MilkyTracker, NitroTracker, OpenMPT, SchismTracker, SoundTracker(UNIX). Are there other program which can be used to compose music in MOD/S3M/IT/XM formats and which are free software? I haven't been able to find much information, and AmigaMML is the only one currently listed here which isn't a tracker interface.
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10:29:17 <oren> QC has a few plot holes (for example, the layout of certain places changed at times), but nothing really major I think.
10:47:16 <boily> helloren. Quality Control leaves plot holes???
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10:48:26 <oren> QC as in the webcomic by Jeph Jacques
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11:30:54 <oren> Windows still takes as long to start up as I remember
11:32:41 <oren> (context: running windows on an AWS server in order to compile something for windows)
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12:47:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Make now just * New user account
12:50:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * MakeNowJust * New user account
12:58:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MakeNowJust]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42785 * MakeNowJust * (+34) My page created
12:58:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:MakeNowJust]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42786&oldid=42785 * MakeNowJust * (+20) add name
13:06:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Metropolis]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42787&oldid=8518 * 98.71.205.242 * (+84)
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13:36:58 <AndoDaan> Who came up with the '2015' variation of '2014'?
13:40:57 <oerjan> i don't remember for sure that i didn't
13:42:39 <int-e> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/annotate/b89c43762a87/bin/2015#l1
13:43:09 <HackEgo> ls: invalid option -- ' ' \ Try `ls --help' for more information.
13:43:17 <HackEgo> -rw-r--r-- 1 5000 0 9 May 4 13:43 complaints
13:43:44 <oerjan> someone broke it two days ago
13:44:25 <oerjan> `` ln -s /dev/null complaints
13:45:03 <int-e> `` mknod bettercomplaints c 1 3
13:45:04 <HackEgo> mknod: `bettercomplaints': Operation not permitted
13:46:22 <int-e> hmm, who is puritania...
13:46:26 <oerjan> i am not sure expecting fancy file system tricks to work in HackEgo is wise
13:46:53 <int-e> oerjan: I didn't expect that to work :)
13:47:27 <int-e> But I would be curious how mercurial handles such a device.
13:53:44 <oerjan> poor freefall police chief
13:54:20 <oerjan> pretty sure turning around is the only sane option.
13:54:49 <oerjan> (of course it's unlikely to be chosen)
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14:18:30 <oren> why does it take so much work to get copy and paste to work in rxvt?
14:21:35 <oren> It's like "no big deal, grab this perl script, then add 8 lines to your .Xresources"... to get ctrl-shift-c/v to work, which are the shortcuts by default in every other terminal ever made
14:26:23 <oren> these people have no concept of learning curve
14:27:58 <oerjan> as an old fart i'm used to right clicking.
14:30:52 <Melvar> Hey, someone might know here: Does anyone know of a reasonable tutorial for writing IBus input methods?
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15:09:27 <HackEgo> olist 982: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
15:09:39 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘QuickCheck-2.8:Test.QuickCheck.Random.QCGen’
15:09:40 <lambdabot> Probable cause: ‘not’ is applied to too few arguments
15:10:10 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
15:10:24 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 9 tests):
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15:24:40 <oren> Melvar: I just found one similar to what i wanted and altered it
15:27:50 <Melvar> I’m not sure there’s such a candidate … really, I have to have an idea what I can do before I can finish designing it.
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16:04:13 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
16:04:22 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 8 tests):
16:05:08 <Jafet> Now I wonder what the other 5 values of (Bool, Bool) are.
16:11:58 <nvd> @check \x y -> (x || y) || not (x && y)
16:15:51 <tromp> things like (False, undefined)
16:20:55 <nvd> I don't think so, I think it's just random
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16:39:09 <oren> so instead of going through the possibilities in a random order, it generates them randomly?
16:39:30 <oren> that seems dumb
16:45:03 <nvd> oren, have you seen Smallcheck?
16:45:09 <oren> maybe it's trying to cover the cases where the number of possibilities aren't finite
16:45:21 <nvd> Yeah, it is
16:45:29 <nvd> Or at least are rather large
16:47:44 <oren> @check \x y z -> (x || y) || z
16:47:45 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 1 test):
16:48:01 <oren> @check \x y z -> (x || y) || z
16:48:02 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 4 tests):
16:49:56 <oren> @check \x y z w v u -> or [x,y,z,w,v,u]
16:49:58 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 6 tests):
16:49:58 <lambdabot> False False False False False False
16:50:02 <oren> @check \x y z w v u -> or [x,y,z,w,v,u]
16:50:03 <lambdabot> *** Failed! Falsifiable (after 19 tests):
16:50:03 <lambdabot> False False False False False False
16:51:26 * oren just realized the \ is like a greek lambda
17:01:23 <Melvar> Isn’t that explained in everything that shows you that syntax?
17:09:53 <oren> I learned that syntax by copying people on this channel
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17:13:29 <b_jonas> learning syntax from #esoteric sounds like a very bad idea
17:13:39 <oren> Also, when I first saw that syntax, the \ was a yen sign
17:14:29 <oren> but now I'm using b_jonas' font which isn't based on JIS
17:16:56 <oren> and so \ actually looks sort of like λ (like its glyph in many fonts, anyway. In this font λ looks like a gimel)
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17:29:08 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: php: not found
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17:48:26 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
17:49:01 <FireFly> oren: well ¥ looks a bit like an upside-down lambda with two extra lines, if you squint
17:49:02 <int-e> . o O ( Funny. It should print 5.0.2.2. )
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17:52:00 <b_jonas> FireFly: more like an upside down haskell logo
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18:41:37 <zzo38> I have one computer (not this one) that if you write to the FM synth ports it will be intercepted by the driver and converted to MIDI instead. Do you know what is the method to know what MIDI sound will be played by giving a certain FM parameters?
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19:23:46 -!- int-e has set topic: QNKCDZO | Vǫwël Cøntınùům | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
19:24:13 <int-e> What do you mean, irssi, "Unknown command: optic"?! It's abundantly clear what I meant...
19:29:30 <oren> what is optic?
19:30:08 <ais523> a misspelling of "topic"
19:30:31 <ais523> it also means "to do with the eye" but I think that's irrelevant here
19:30:46 <ais523> (it's relevant in that it's clearly irrelevant, if it had a more relevant-seeming meaning that might make a difference)
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19:32:15 <AndoDaan_> idk 'picto' is kinda half way between topic and optic.
19:32:59 <oren> it's amazing how long trees can stay up while immersed in lava
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20:13:36 <b_jonas> ais523: I have some more questions about ayacc
20:14:40 <b_jonas> ais523: firstly, does ayacc guarantee that for any constant grammar, the memory use of running ayacc is bounded linear in the maximal stack size of the LR automaton, that is, that it's properly tail recursive if the grammar is?
20:14:46 <ais523> (I haven't worked on it for a while)
20:15:04 <ais523> b_jonas: yep, actually it seems to compile tail recursion into loops
20:15:13 <ais523> which surprised me but makes sense
20:15:22 <ais523> (although atm it expresses the loops with goto because I haven't taught it how while works)
20:15:33 <b_jonas> ais523: "seems to" is not enough, I'd like to know if it's guaranteed to always does that, not just in the simpler or more common cases
20:15:47 <ais523> b_jonas: the call stack has the same shape as the LR stack
20:15:48 <b_jonas> like, if it always does that even with a complicated or unusual grammar
20:15:54 <ais523> thus, if the LR stack is finite, the call stack must be too
20:16:08 <ais523> come to think of it, that means that loops are the only possible way to implement a tail-recursive grammar
20:16:11 <ais523> so it's not surprising that it uses them
20:17:08 <b_jonas> well, technically you can use longjmp as a loop construct to implement tail recursion, but it's ugly so you don't normally do that except in a scheme interpreter
20:20:32 <oren> b_jonas: Hmm, Inever thought of that use of longjmp. I have only ever used it when I need to jump out of a callback function.
20:24:53 <b_jonas> another question. suppose I write a grammar not with precedences, but with nested rules, like
20:25:29 <b_jonas> a: '(' j ')' | '1'; b: b '/' a | a; c: c '*' b | b; d: d '-' c | c; e: e '+' d | d; f: f '<' e | e; g: g '&' f | f; h: h '^' g | g; i: i '|' h | h; j: j '=' i | i; %start j
20:25:49 <ais523> b_jonas: I've been experimenting with that
20:26:03 <ais523> the code it produces is different from if you wrote it with precedences (because the LR automata are also different), and probably a little worse
20:26:04 <b_jonas> can ayacc handle that efficiently?
20:26:10 <ais523> it doesn't look awful though
20:26:19 <ais523> I'm hoping to optimize them into the same thing eventually
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20:26:40 <ais523> (or, well, it's competitive on a small grammar but scales worse)
20:26:59 <ais523> (not sure if it's computational-order worse or just a worse constant factor, yet)
20:27:10 <b_jonas> (the real grammar would have brace actions in it too)
20:28:00 <ais523> I often test without them, though
20:28:19 <ais523> or the trivial example { $$ = $1 + $3; } etc, that everyone uses, so that ayacc doesn't optimize them out
20:28:38 <ais523> (actually, the main advantage of ayacc's output style is that it can optimize inside brace actions)
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20:30:49 <b_jonas> ais523: have you figured out what you'll handle the destruction of symbols when there's a parse error?
20:31:41 <ais523> b_jonas: I destroy them with longjmp/exceptions
20:31:53 <ais523> I'm hoping that in C++, you'll be able to RAII them
20:32:14 <ais523> in C it's less good of a situation, I don't really want to add %destructor and friends though because they make things substantially less efficient
20:32:14 <b_jonas> ais523: longjmp specifically won't help. if you use C++ exceptions instead, then yes, that works
20:33:55 <zzo38> Why can't you just use Lemon? It works, but Lemon currently has no jump buffers but maybe can be added on!
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20:34:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: firstly, we want compatibility with existing yacc code,
20:34:53 <b_jonas> secondly I agree with ais that the lemon syntax isn't really better than the dollar sign syntax,
20:35:26 <b_jonas> thirdly, lemon doesn't allow you to define your own numerical values for the terminal types,
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20:36:37 <b_jonas> and ais's parser might optimize better and generate cleaner and more debuggable code,
20:36:48 <b_jonas> and doesn't use a fixed size stack though I'm not sure how important that is,
20:37:04 <b_jonas> and, um, that's about all. lemon isn't really bad, but I think ayacc will be better.
20:37:06 <zzo38> For the first one of course you don't use Lemon, but it is true Lemon doesn't define your own numerical values for the terminal types (unless you fake it)
20:37:57 <ais523> b_jonas: OK, so something that's been bothering me
20:38:05 <zzo38> But the other features of Lemon mainly that I like are that the lexer calls the parser and that you can have multiple instances (and even multiple parsers) in one program.
20:38:12 <ais523> POSIX says that the value of 'error' (which is a terminal) is 256 by default but can be changed by the user
20:38:25 <ais523> however, for the code that ayacc generates, the numerical value of 'error' doesn't matter at all
20:38:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I admit that's another nice advantage.
20:38:33 <zzo38> And that Lemon works just with two files, one for the compiler and one for the template.
20:38:42 <ais523> atm I track what the value is and error out if it's a duplicate of another value, but don't use it for anything
20:39:01 <zzo38> You don't need makefiles and dependencies and whatever
20:39:09 <zzo38> And it is public domain, too
20:39:27 <oren> IIRC, I once used a linked list of allocated blocks to allow cleanup in a C program...
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20:39:34 <b_jonas> zzo38: ayacc works with a single file too, and doesn't need makefiles, that's one of the main advantages of ayacc over bison.
20:39:44 <b_jonas> it's specifically been ais523's goal
20:39:57 <zzo38> Yes, that's good, it makes better than bison yes
20:40:01 <b_jonas> it certainly already seems saner than bison
20:40:40 <zzo38> It is good you make this stuff, and then we can see all of comparing stuff too; now we have another option too such as if you want yacc syntax files
20:40:45 <ais523> I also support multiple %start symbols
20:41:11 <oren> The main problem with bison is the amount of unnamespaced global variables
20:41:16 <ais523> although if you do that, it doesn't generate a POSIX-style yyparse function
20:41:27 <b_jonas> ais523: and multiple parsers reentrantly, right? so you can call the parser again inside a parser, or from another thread or coroutine.
20:41:27 <ais523> oren: they're namespaced with a "yy" prefix
20:41:33 <zzo38> Lemon uses *no* global variables.
20:41:52 <oren> right, but I would want it to be name_of_.y_file_parse
20:42:03 <zzo38> (Global variables are not good for software libraries, in my opinion; only application software should normally use global variables)
20:43:00 <zzo38> (Some people don't like global variables for application programs either, but I think it is useful for application software.)
20:44:39 <oren> the namespace issue is what prevents having two syntaces in one program
20:45:03 <b_jonas> oren: I think that's already allowed in bison, and definitely in ayacc too
20:45:21 <oren> but then how do you call them? there is only one yyparse
20:45:27 <b_jonas> no, they have a different name
20:45:39 <ais523> oren: ayacc generates multiple start functions with a sane API
20:45:41 <b_jonas> now two instances of the same syntax in the same program might be more tricky
20:45:51 <ais523> and, if you have exactly one start function
20:45:54 <b_jonas> no really, doesn't bison do that too?
20:45:57 <ais523> generates yyparse as a wrapper around it with POSIX API
20:45:58 <b_jonas> you just tell it what prefix to use
20:46:06 <ais523> b_jonas: even POSIX yacc lets you swap out the "yy"
20:46:19 <b_jonas> so that's a stupid complaint
20:46:44 <b_jonas> but I would like to know about multiple re-entrant parsers. that might be difficult with the posix api where there's some global functions and variables the rules can refer to
20:47:40 <ais523> in ayacc you can also give a prefix of "static yy"
20:47:45 <ais523> then all global variables become file scope instead
20:48:06 <b_jonas> ais523: that's just renaming still
20:48:18 <b_jonas> it doesn't solve reentrancy
20:48:21 <zzo38> Why are you using global variables anyways? Can you add the option to don't use global variables?
20:48:24 <ais523> oh no, I was talking about the previous conversation
20:48:29 <ais523> ayacc is re-entrant if you don't use the POSIX API
20:48:31 <b_jonas> zzo38: because yacc compatibility
20:48:33 <zzo38> To allow to allocate instances of a parser at runtime?
20:49:04 <b_jonas> zzo38: yacc allows you to access and modify parser state in some insane ways from an action
20:49:06 <ais523> the globals are only referred to by the POSIX compatibility wrapper, not anywhere else in the code
20:49:07 <b_jonas> with global functions and global variables
20:50:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: the ayacc parser actually allocates everything on the C stack
20:50:07 <ais523> b_jonas: POSIX doesn't specify you can change yychar (or even what yychar does)
20:50:23 <ais523> it does imply you can change it with yyclearin, but that's a macro that can only run from actions
20:50:27 <b_jonas> but aren't there still some ugly functions?
20:50:33 <ais523> so I can make it expand to look at the relevant locals instead
20:50:41 <b_jonas> oh, they're macros that run from actions?
20:50:49 <b_jonas> so you can detect when they're accessed
20:50:55 <b_jonas> and do the right thing if the grammar doesn't refer to them
20:52:59 <b_jonas> does that leave anything else that's global? (functions or variables, other than yyparse)?
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20:56:36 <b_jonas> zzo38: snapshot is at http://nethack4.org/media/alex/ayacc/ayacc.pl by the way
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20:58:27 <zzo38> O, it is the one written in Perl.
20:58:27 <oren> Hmm... it appears that bison and posix yacc do both allow multiple parsers but in different ways
20:59:07 <pikhq> Yep, yacc's parsers are "merely" not reentrant.
20:59:12 <b_jonas> oren: "allow multiple parsers" can mean three or four things
20:59:34 <zzo38> All The Tropes won't answer me about the URI for "played straight" (currently there is no link?); I wanted to have such a page for the purpose of using its URI in RDF graphs.
20:59:40 <oren> I mean allow multiple _grammers_
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20:59:54 <ais523> oren: ayacc allows that at least two ways
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21:00:05 <b_jonas> multiple syntaxes, multiple instances of the same parser {if properly nested, if in separate threads, or in any way, even in coroutines}
21:00:16 <ais523> either with a prefix of "static yy", or with different prefixes per parser
21:00:58 <oren> yacc does -p to specify the prefix, while bison says that that is "obsoleted" and recommends -Dapi.prefix
21:01:38 <ais523> I'm ignoring what bison claims to be obsolete :-)
21:01:47 <ais523> bison doesn't even call its output file y.tab.c by default
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21:07:10 <oren> I suppose for reeentrancy, you could fork()
21:08:24 <oren> returning your result would be really messy though
21:09:48 <oren> damn it. s/eee/ee/
21:10:53 <oren> fork *is* the only way I know to duplicate global variables
21:12:07 <b_jonas> ais523: anyway, tell me when you've done a release
21:12:32 <oren> hmm... no wait, if you had access to *all* the globals, you could save them to a structure and overwrite them
21:12:33 <ais523> I haven't been working on it recently, though
21:15:00 <oren> in ais' implementation I bet the only globals are those visible to user program, so it could be done by user. But I don't know if bison has its own private globals per-syntax.
21:15:39 <ais523> Bison does almost everything in one function
21:15:46 <ais523> so it mostly just uses locals of that function
21:15:51 <ais523> except when POSIX requires a global
21:19:17 <oren> Then you could make a struct parse_level {int yylval,...,struct parse_level *up};
21:20:05 <oren> and save all the globals to it before the inner call to yyparse
21:23:25 <ais523> oren: the asm backend I'm working on works kind-of like that
21:23:33 <ais523> it stores all its "globals" in call-preserved regisers
21:23:49 <ais523> even 32-bit x86 has enough registers to store all the globals I'm interested in
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21:33:20 <b_jonas> why are you doing an asm backend?
21:33:38 <ais523> partly because I'm fed up with gcc not generating the asm I want
21:33:59 <shachaf> that's what evil manglers are for hth
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21:34:39 <b_jonas> I'll stick to the C or C++ backends
21:38:53 <oren> how do you prounounce dh?
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21:42:18 <oren> there should be a parser generator that doesn't require you to reinvent parse trees every time
21:44:53 <oren> dhen dhe spelling would be like dhis?
21:45:53 <oren> ^ that looks so wrong
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21:47:25 <lambdabot> CYUL 042119Z 23027G37KT 30SM -SHRA FEW070 OVC100 25/07 A2992 RMK CU2AC6 SLP133 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
21:47:40 <lambdabot> ENVA 042120Z 15017G27KT CAVOK 09/01 Q1003 RMK WIND 670FT 17031G42KT
21:47:47 <oren> you could also be greek and spell it mpoily
21:47:54 <boily> ha. hahaha. MUAH AH AH AH AH AH AH! >:D
21:47:57 <lambdabot> KOAK 042053Z 27009KT 10SM BKN018 13/08 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP156 T01330078 58001
21:48:12 <boily> shellochellof! Oakland?
21:48:22 <oerjan> boily: IT'S JUST A TEMPORARY SETBACK
21:48:37 <boily> oerjan: NA NA NI NA NÈREUH!
21:49:04 <boily> oren: helloren. that's a new one!
21:49:39 <oerjan> boily: google claims NÈREUH is catalan although it doesn't know what it means tdnh
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21:49:55 <HackEgo> Guest24790: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
21:50:16 <oren> Yeah apparently in modern greek beta is english v, and mp is english b
21:50:24 <Guest24790> What do you think about Alex Crowley Liber XX?
21:50:51 <boily> oerjan: it's just a standard French puerile taunt. to be phonetically understood.
21:53:09 <oerjan> Guest24790: i think you're in the slightly wrong channel
21:53:23 <oren> I dunno, it certainly is hard to understand
21:53:30 <oerjan> unfortunately we're not sure what the right one is
21:53:51 <oren> "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law." <-- that would cause probleme
21:54:08 <oerjan> oren: nah it's just Kant rephrased, isn't it
21:54:44 <shachaf> oerjan: perhaps http://ircbrowse.net/browse/haskell?id=20387688×tamp=1427772661#t1427772661 can give us advice
21:54:49 <HackEgo> We don't know what certainly is for sure, but at least it isn't a functor.
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21:55:57 <oerjan> shachaf: you're in #haskell right, could you ask?
21:55:59 <oren> I find the easiest method to "call energies forth" is to use a lighter
21:56:13 <ais523> isn't certainly a modality?
21:56:28 <shachaf> I could ask in /msg but so could you.
21:57:16 <oerjan> hm e's been idle a bit long
21:57:32 <shachaf> hmm, they're also in another channel
21:57:53 <boily> oren: yes, but it lacks, y'know... cachet? originality? call me a hipster, but nothing beats organic amadou.
21:59:53 <oren> Actually, I don't know if I have a lighter. I do have strike-anywhere matches though
22:00:01 <oerjan> itt boily recommends self-immolation
22:00:46 <oren> oerjan: tiat hth
22:01:11 <oerjan> yes, that is also true indeed
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22:03:28 <boily> what about moxibustion?
22:03:41 <boily> . o O ( damn it's windy outside... )
22:04:04 <oerjan> boily: do not do moxibustion in strong wind hth
22:04:47 -!- nsh has joined.
22:04:57 <HackEgo> nsh: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:10:10 <lambdabot> git clone https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot
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22:10:50 <HackEgo> GaLlOaFrO: wElCoMe tO ThE InTeRnAtIoNaL HuB FoR EsOtErIc pRoGrAmMiNg lAnGuAgE DeSiGn aNd dEpLoYmEnT! fOr mOrE InFoRmAtIoN, cHeCk oUt oUr wIkI: <HtTp://eSoLaNgS.OrG/>. (FoR ThE OtHeR KiNd oF EsOtErIcA, tRy #EsOtErIc oN IrC.DaL.NeT.)
22:11:12 <ais523> why do people use the stupid welcome variants so much :-(
22:12:03 <oerjan> because they're festivous hth
22:12:46 <shachaf> It's not all that welcoming.
22:12:53 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:13:54 <boily> nice. I didn't know we had that one.
22:14:58 <FireFly> `` ls bin | grep -i come\$
22:14:59 <HackEgo> elcome \ ozcome \ r13elcome \ relcome \ ReLcOmE \ rwelcome \ welcome \ welcome \ wElCoMe \ WeLcOmE \ WELCOME \ wercome
22:15:08 <FireFly> Yeah, maybe a bit excessive
22:15:17 <shachaf> That won't find everything, of course.
22:16:10 <HackEgo> エソテリックプログラミング言語のディザインとデプロイメントの国際な場所へようこそ！詳しく、ウィキを見て： http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page。（他のエソテリック、irc.dal.netの#esotericへ）
22:16:16 <HackEgo> bin/benvenuto \ bin/bienvenido \ bin/elcome \ bin/emoclew \ bin/ozcome \ bin/relcome \ bin/rwelcome \ bin/tervetuloa \ bin/wehlcohme \ bin/welcome \ bin/welcome \ bin/wElCoMe \ bin/WeLcOmE \ bin/WELCOME \ bin/welcome13 \ bin/wlcm \ bin/wlcmr \ bin/wow \ bin/zalgreet
22:16:18 <HackEgo> (.ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
22:16:43 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: jrypbzr: not found
22:16:57 -!- ais523 has quit (Ping timeout: 272 seconds).
22:17:05 <HackEgo> W҉͊ẽ̳ĺ̬c̖͑o̟ͣm̴͆e͒͢ ̼̏ṫ̀o͆̔ ̴͛t̶ͧh҉ͥe҉̖ ̬̀ḭ̡n̬̕t͏͈e̓̅r̈́̋n̶̙a̞͌t͋̔î͎o̦ͮn̿ͯa̗̮l̺ͬ ̖̏h̉͠u͇̽b̂̓ ̱̃f̦̳o̱ͨr̴̊ ̪͘e̶̢s̀ͫo̸ͪt̍̚ę̢rͧ̄i̦ͦc̲͝ ͈̾p͋̚r̲̀o҉̢g̯͊r̶͂a̺ͦm͏̒ḿ͠í̸n̋͢g̰͚ ͊͘lͣͪā̙n̻ͦgͩ͢u̠͕a̮ͣg̹҉êͣ ̒̒ḓ͑e̷͕s͍͔
22:17:19 <HackEgo> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
22:17:33 <boily> b_jonas: itym welcome13 hth, b oerjan bmti.
22:17:46 <FireFly> `` r13elcome # is this rainbowy and rotated?
22:17:47 <HackEgo> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
22:17:50 <boily> fungot: do you uggc?
22:17:51 <fungot> boily: i did play extensively to civ, monkey island i and ii my kindergarten days. then i continued to check whether two rectangles a and b
22:17:58 <oerjan> `` mv bin/{welcome13,jrypbzr}
22:18:23 <shachaf> That list is still not complete.
22:18:33 <shachaf> Hmm, maybe it is. I don't know.
22:18:43 <FireFly> fungot: I don't think either of those video game series involve comparing rectangles
22:18:43 <fungot> FireFly: is taht so :o))? what operation would that perform, if ( x 0) 0
22:19:33 -!- ais523 has joined.
22:20:23 <HackEgo> Jrypbzr gb gur vagreangvbany uho sbe rfbgrevp cebtenzzvat ynathntr qrfvta naq qrcyblzrag! Sbe zber vasbezngvba, purpx bhg bhe jvxv: <uggc://rfbynatf.bet/>. (Sbe gur bgure xvaq bs rfbgrevpn, gel #rfbgrevp ba vep.qny.arg.)
22:20:26 <oren> fungot: do you prefer lowercase or capital numbers?
22:20:27 <fungot> oren: set, longjmp are known as internal definitions as opposed to servers, etc) is a unit of knowledge. what's the difference
22:21:17 <b_jonas> fungot: what? aren't you still in scheme mode? it's called call-with-current-continuation there, not longjmp
22:21:17 <fungot> b_jonas: each cpu has 1mb l2) ( map eval l)? tried toggling hardware/ software flow control on pure fnord opcodes.
22:21:59 <oerjan> `` mv bin/{r13elcome,erypbzr}
22:23:54 <boily> fungot: pure fnord opcodes. what conspiracy are you on now?
22:23:55 <fungot> boily: it would be funny to build electronic brainfuck instructions. is it possible to run linux, it will be
22:23:57 <HackEgo> Wehlcohme to the ihntehrnahtiohnahl huhb fohr ehsohtehrihc prohgrahmmihng lahnguahge dehsihgn ahnd dehployhmehnt! Fohr mohre ihnfohrmahtiohn, chehck ouht ouhr wihki: <http://ehsohlahngs.ohrg/>. (Fohr the ohthehr kihnd ohf ehsohtehrihca, try #ehsohtehrihc ohn ihrc.dahl.neht.)
22:24:07 <boily> fungot: linux in brainfuck? blasphemy!
22:24:07 <fungot> boily: oh i see. i guess my calculator is able to reindent edited code. spells is a library of no-op services, and then i'll call him attila.
22:24:13 <HackEgo> Wlcm t th ntrntnl hb fr strc prgrmmng lngg dsgn nd dplymnt! Fr mr nfrmtn, chck t r wk: <http://slngs.rg/>. (Fr th thr knd f strc, try #strc n rc.dl.nt.)
22:24:19 <oerjan> ideally we should modify HackEgo so that any unknown command attempts interpretation as a garbling of welcome twsh
22:24:40 <oerjan> (fortunately we cannot do that without admin help)
22:24:58 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: eoe: not found
22:25:20 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: velcome: not found
22:25:21 <Guest24790> fuck you fags wanted to magic shit but ur homossexual hackerish runics are outstanding
22:25:26 -!- Guest24790 has left.
22:26:04 <ais523> now if you'd had a correctly spelt welcome
22:26:08 <ais523> they'd know which channel to inseult
22:26:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wellcome: not found
22:26:29 <oren> homosexual hackerish runics?
22:26:31 <boily> drystan and inseult :P
22:27:05 <shachaf> zalgreet rendering is nondeterministic in my terminal
22:27:13 <shachaf> Every time I press ^L it changes a little bit.
22:27:16 <oerjan> ok so it was a troll not an actual other esoterician
22:27:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Welcome: not found
22:27:57 <shachaf> oerjan: don't trolls come from norway twh
22:28:05 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: Velcome: not found
22:28:09 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: velcome: not found
22:28:16 <oerjan> b_jonas: vould `velcome have a particular affiliation vith bloood?
22:29:14 * oerjan now tries to remember if crowley was homosexualish or not
22:29:51 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: ẁelcome: not found
22:29:56 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcöme: not found
22:30:03 <oren> velcome too zee eeenternational khub fur esoterick programming language deezign und development
22:30:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: welcomè: not found
22:30:20 <oerjan> hm we _do_ have some weirdifiers
22:30:27 <HackEgo> bash: bork: command not found
22:30:33 <oerjan> `` welcome | interps bork
22:30:34 <HackEgo> bash: interps: command not found
22:30:35 <HackEgo> WELCOME TO THE INTERNATIONAL HUB FOR ESOTERIC PROGRAMMING LANGUAGE DESIGN AND DEPLOYMENT! FOR MORE INFORMATION, CHECK OUT OUR WIKI: <HTTP://ESOLANGS.ORG/>. (FOR THE OTHER KIND OF ESOTERICA, TRY #ESOTERIC ON IRC.DAL.NET.)
22:30:40 <oerjan> `` welcome | interp bork
22:30:45 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/interp: 4: exec: ibin/bork: not found
22:30:49 <shachaf> All the "command not found"s are messing up my terminal.
22:30:55 <shachaf> Also they're a waste of space.
22:30:58 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ welcome "$@" | rev | tr \)\( \(\)
22:31:02 <HackEgo> bash: chef: command not found
22:31:14 <oerjan> wasn't that on HackEgo somewhere
22:31:34 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*chef*: No such file or directory
22:31:39 <HackEgo> ls: cannot access bin/*swe*: No such file or directory
22:31:46 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: swedish: not found
22:31:50 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
22:32:07 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | tr Ww Vv' > bin/velcome && chmod a+x bin/velcome
22:32:11 <HackEgo> Velcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our viki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:32:43 <oerjan> b_jonas: i find dat insufficiently blöödy hth
22:32:58 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin/interp: 4: exec: ibin/swedish: not found
22:32:58 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | sed s/l/ll/g' > bin/wellcome && chmod a+x bin/vellcome
22:33:00 <HackEgo> chmod: cannot access `bin/vellcome': No such file or directory
22:33:04 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | sed s/l/ll/g' > bin/wellcome && chmod a+x bin/wellcome
22:33:09 <HackEgo> Wellcome to the internationall hub for esoteric programming llanguage design and deplloyment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esollangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dall.net.)
22:33:22 <oerjan> hm HackEgo doesn't have it
22:34:15 -!- hjulle has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
22:34:45 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `salvete: not found
22:34:49 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: salvete: not found
22:35:08 <oerjan> <shachaf> zalgreet rendering is nondeterministic in my terminal <-- i refuse to consider that not a feature hth
22:35:13 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | sed s/o/ö/g' > bin/welcöme && chmod a+x bin/welcöme
22:35:19 <HackEgo> Welcöme tö the internatiönal hub för esöteric prögramming language design and deplöyment! För möre införmatiön, check öut öur wiki: <http://esölangs.örg/>. (För the öther kind öf esöterica, try #esöteric ön irc.dal.net.)
22:35:32 <FireFly> !swedish Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
22:35:32 <EgoBot> Velcume-a tu zee interneshunel hoob fur isutereec prugremmeeng lungooege-a deseegn und depluyment! Fur mure-a inffurmeshun, check oooot oooor veeki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (Fur zee oozeer keend ooff isutereeca, try #isutereec oon irc.del.net.)
22:35:43 <oerjan> <shachaf> oerjan: don't trolls come from norway twh <-- a disturbing number of them, yes
22:36:05 <FireFly> #isutereec is a nice channel name
22:37:05 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | sed "s/\<\(.\)/\u\1/g"' > bin/Welcome && chmod a+x bin/Welcome
22:37:10 <HackEgo> .elcome .o .he .nternational .ub .or .soteric .rogramming .anguage .esign .nd .eployment! .or .ore .nformation, .heck .ut .ur .iki: <.ttp://.solangs..rg/>. (.or .he .ther .ind .f .soterica, .ry #.soteric .n .rc..al..et.)
22:37:27 <ais523> b_jonas: sed isn't Perl
22:37:38 <ais523> although I'm a little surprised that that was its reaction
22:37:39 <b_jonas> ais523: gnu sed can do this if you give the right switches
22:38:05 <HackEgo> GNU sed version 4.2.1 \ Copyright (C) 2009 Free Software Foundation, Inc. \ This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO \ warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, \ to the extent permitted by law. \ \ GNU sed home page: <http://www.gnu.org/software/sed/>. \ General help using GNU so
22:38:48 <FireFly> wouldn't the \1 be interpreted by $'' ?
22:39:19 <b_jonas> `` echo $'#!/bin/sh\nwelcome "$@" | ''sed "s/\<\(.\)/\u\1/g"' > bin/Welcome && chmod a+x bin/Welcome
22:39:27 <HackEgo> Welcome To The International Hub For Esoteric Programming Language Design And Deployment! For More Information, Check Out Our Wiki: <Http://Esolangs.Org/>. (For The Other Kind Of Esoterica, Try #Esoteric On Irc.Dal.Net.)
22:41:10 <oerjan> yep, crowley definitely swung both ways
22:41:41 <oerjan> so obvious troll is obviously self-contradictory
22:45:53 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: unwelcome: not found
22:46:18 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: farewell: not found
22:46:21 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: godsped: not found
22:46:23 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: godspeed: not found
22:46:26 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: goodbye: not found
22:46:32 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/ | tr "A-Za-z" "ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ"
22:46:32 <HackEgo> Σ θ ΤΒΩΤΣ Ν Β ΩΒ ΒΤ Τ Τ Τ ΥΤ! Β Β ΤΒΩΤ, χ Ω Β : <://ΣΤ.Β/>. (Β θ θΒ Τ Π ΩΒ, #ΩΒ Τ Β.Σ.Ω.)
22:46:55 <b_jonas> oren: tr transliterates bytes
22:47:31 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/ | sed y/A-Za-z/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/
22:47:32 <HackEgo> sed: -e expression #1, char 114: strings for `y' command are different lengths
22:48:03 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/ | sed y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/
22:48:04 <HackEgo> Ωελκομε το θε ιντερνατιοναλ ηυβ φορ εσοτερικ προγραμμινγ λανγυαγε δεσιγν ανδ δεπλοημεντ! Φορ μορε ινφορματιον, χεκκ ουτ ουρ ωικι: <ηττπ://εσολανγσ.οργ/>. (Φορ θε οθερ κινδ οφ εσοτερικα, τρη #εσο
22:48:33 -!- galloafro has quit (Quit: Page closed).
22:49:04 <b_jonas> missing a /g on the second one, and you might put all three sed commands together separated by semicolons if you double-quote the whole thing
22:49:21 <ais523> why are you translating q to psi
22:49:57 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/g -e s/q/κυ/ | sed y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/
22:49:58 <HackEgo> Ωελκομε το θε ιντερνατιοναλ ηυβ φορ εσοτερικ προγραμμινγ λανγυαγε δεσιγν ανδ δεπλοημεντ! Φορ μορε ινφορματιον, χεκκ ουτ ουρ ωικι: <ηττπ://εσολανγσ.οργ/>. (Φορ θε οθερ κινδ οφ εσοτερικα, τρη #εσο
22:50:12 <ais523> IIRC, in Greek, h translates to an accent, not a letter
22:50:41 <ais523> are some of these on visual similarity?
22:50:59 <ais523> IMO w should translate to omicron + upsilon
22:51:08 <ais523> which is at least vaguely similar pronunciation-wise
22:51:22 <oerjan> why not just two upsilon
22:51:22 <ais523> y to eta is also pretty dubious, although at least defensible
22:51:28 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/g -e s/q/κυ/ -e s/w/ου/ -e y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/
22:51:31 <HackEgo> Ωελκομε το θε ιντερνατιοναλ ηυβ φορ εσοτερικ προγραμμινγ λανγυαγε δεσιγν ανδ δεπλοημεντ! Φορ μορε ινφορματιον, χεκκ ουτ ουρ ουικι: <ηττπ://εσολανγσ.οργ/>. (Φορ θε οθερ κινδ οφ εσοτερικα, τρη #εσ
22:51:34 <ais523> oerjan: because that pun only works in English
22:51:41 <boily> there should be ω̈.
22:51:55 <oerjan> ais523: i think _both_ u and v come from upsilon
22:52:03 -!- boily has quit (Quit: OCTAL CHICKEN).
22:52:06 <oerjan> and w comes from doubling one of them
22:52:23 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/g -e s/q/κυ/ -e s/w/ου/g s/W/Ου/g -e y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/
22:52:24 <HackEgo> sed: can't read s/W/Ου/g: No such file or directory
22:52:37 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e s/th/θ/g -e s/ch/χ/g -e s/q/κυ/ -e s/w/ου/g -e s/W/Ου/g -e y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/
22:52:38 <HackEgo> Ουελκομε το θε ιντερνατιοναλ ηυβ φορ εσοτερικ προγραμμινγ λανγυαγε δεσιγν ανδ δεπλοημεντ! Φορ μορε ινφορματιον, χεκκ ουτ ουρ ουικι: <ηττπ://εσολανγσ.οργ/>. (Φορ θε οθερ κινδ οφ εσοτερικα, τρη #ε
22:52:56 <b_jonas> this is gnu sed, not traditional sed
22:53:03 <b_jonas> it accepts semicolons as a sentence separator
22:53:28 <oren> `` welcome | sed -e "s/th/θ/g;s/ch/χ/g;s/q/κυ/;s/w/ου/g;s/W/Ου/g;y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/"
22:53:29 <HackEgo> Ουελκομε το θε ιντερνατιοναλ ηυβ φορ εσοτερικ προγραμμινγ λανγυαγε δεσιγν ανδ δεπλοημεντ! Φορ μορε ινφορματιον, χεκκ ουτ ουρ ουικι: <ηττπ://εσολανγσ.οργ/>. (Φορ θε οθερ κινδ οφ εσοτερικα, τρη #ε
22:53:58 <b_jonas> and it's too long to fit in an irk line
22:53:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: oh that's gnu only?
22:54:11 <b_jonas> oerjan: but newline works in other seds
22:54:58 <b_jonas> oerjan: so you can sed -e "$(echo 'command;command' | sed "s/;/\n/g")" or something like that
22:58:07 <oren> `` echo 'welcome | sed -e "s/th/θ/g;s/ch/χ/g;s/q/κυ/;s/w/ου/g;s/W/Ου/g;y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/"' >/bin/ουελκομε
22:58:07 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/ουελκομε: Read-only file system
22:58:26 <oren> `` echo 'welcome | sed -e "s/th/θ/g;s/ch/χ/g;s/q/κυ/;s/w/ου/g;s/W/Ου/g;y/ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZabcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz/ΑΒΚΔΕΦΓΗΙΪΚΛΜΝΟΠΨΡΣΤΥΒΩΞΗΖαβκδεφγηιϊκλμνοπψρστυβωξηζ/"' >bin/ουελκομε
22:59:26 <oren> `` chmod a+x bin/ουελκομε
22:59:39 <HackEgo> Ουελκομε το θε ιντερνατιοναλ ηυβ φορ εσοτερικ προγραμμινγ λανγυαγε δεσιγν ανδ δεπλοημεντ! Φορ μορε ινφορματιον, χεκκ ουτ ουρ ουικι: <ηττπ://εσολανγσ.οργ/>. (Φορ θε οθερ κινδ οφ εσοτερικα, τρη #ε
23:00:22 <oren> oue\\, ouatebep
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23:14:06 <shachaf> oerjan: olist is too frequent these days
23:14:12 <shachaf> you haven't been oohing much
23:14:55 <oerjan> my oohscilloscope is overcharged
23:53:52 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: oohlist: not found
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00:07:22 <HackEgo> slist Tavros: Taneb atriq Ngevd Fiora Sgeo ThatOtherPerson alot
00:27:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:IanO]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42788&oldid=25203 * IanO * (+127) I <3 Forth!
00:29:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42789&oldid=41911 * IanO * (+19) I <3 Forth! (correct year, categorize)
00:33:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42790&oldid=42789 * IanO * (+48)
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00:41:40 <oerjan> in reality it's evilott, elliott's evil twin
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02:35:51 <oren> my knowledge of trees is inadequate
02:36:14 <oren> is a cedar edible?
02:38:39 <ais523> I wouldn't recommend trying to eat most parts of most trees
02:39:59 <shachaf> presumably you know a lot about pine trees hth
02:40:47 <oren> shachaf:Well I know they aren't edible
02:42:12 <oren> Actually, are they? I mean it would be *hard* to eat a pinecone, but I dunno if it would hurt you...
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02:42:46 <oren> maybe you can make like, pinecone soup
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02:47:35 <shachaf> aren't pine nuts more straightforward
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03:34:23 <oren> Giant Otters look like trees running around the map
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08:38:03 <izabera> i just watched dbza and realized that it's not finished yet
08:38:09 <izabera> how could they do this to me
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09:59:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42791&oldid=42655 * Vriskanon * (+16) /* Original Languages */ Added CalScript
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10:19:44 <Jafet> Meanwhile... "there is no evidence neither that the emblem of the Red Cross was not formed by reversing the colours of the Swiss flag."
10:21:03 <mroman> I'm actually not surprised at all about this "Social Experiment - Child Abduction"
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10:29:37 <b_jonas> fungot, are you surprised about this "Social Experiment - Child Abduction"?
10:29:38 <fungot> b_jonas: robot, fnord) dogface rather than dogface_ pings the wrong client.
10:31:09 <nvd> Sgeo, I think the only people on slist and this channel are me and you, and I'm using a different nick
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11:01:50 <FireFly> Which one is that, anyway?
11:02:14 <HackEgo> echo -n "$(basename "$0")${@:+ }$@: "; tail -n+2 "$0" | xargs; exit
11:02:24 <HackEgo> Update notification for the webcomic Homestuck.
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11:03:08 <FireFly> Oh it's a Taneb.. I didn't recognise the nick
11:08:53 <nvd> FireFly, yeah, I switched to it recently
11:09:12 <fungot> b_jonas: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/ node/ 29/ fnord, how come uncommenting the two lines with ellipses in the following september
11:09:57 <elliott> nvd: are you like rms or like esr
11:11:55 <nvd> I'd hope I'm more like nvd
11:12:22 <nvd> Especially as the v is part of my surname and not a middle initial
11:12:34 <callforjudgement> with esr it's harder because I don't know what the s stands for
11:13:51 <FireFly> I considered doing the initials thing at one point, but 'jcwh' doesn't really look that good to me
11:14:30 <nvd> callforjudgement, yeah
11:15:27 <FireFly> I think part of why I didn't connect nvd immediately is the switch from titlecase to lowercase. For some reason people tend to stick to one or the other
11:16:34 <elliott> callforjudgement: in esr the s stands for S.
11:17:03 <nvd> elliott, like Ulysses S Grant?
11:17:13 <elliott> no, more like eric s. raymond
11:19:16 <boily> FireFly: FirelloFly. jcwh?
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11:19:48 <boily> mine are only 'ab'. no middle names, not even the spectre of a letter.
11:19:48 <FireFly> Yeah, that would be my initials in lowercase
11:21:18 <elliott> is your surname actually boily
11:21:39 <elliott> what if other family members want to use irc
11:22:23 <FireFly> What if other elliotts want to use irc?
11:22:33 <boily> it's easy, elliott is unique.
11:22:41 -!- callforjudgement has changed nick to ais523.
11:22:50 <FireFly> Oh, one of them singletons
11:23:14 <elliott> FireFly: then I will quit IRC for them
11:23:34 <elliott> I have a long-standing rivalry with at least one other person who wants this nick.
11:25:23 <b_jonas> I chose b_jonas because nobody else wants it. Some people use jonas (and I still own that nick in a few places), but these days I start with b_jonas or variations of it rightaway.
11:26:06 <FireFly> See, if I'd use my first name as my nick I'd have to fight with b_jonas
11:26:40 <int-e> right... nicks should be obscure :)
11:26:48 <ais523> elliott: also with various misspellings, right?
11:27:18 <lambdabot> ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function),
11:27:21 <lambdabot> ‘.’ (imported from Data.Function),
11:27:27 <FireFly> int-e: I realised that after I had decided upon a nick.. this one tends to be taken unfortunately
11:27:54 <ais523> I seem to remember there was an elliot or an eliot or something
11:29:20 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, there's an elliot on freenode
11:29:43 <ais523> I seem to remember this channel frequently misspelled it back years ago
11:29:46 <ais523> but we're all used to it by now
11:30:04 <int-e> FireFly: I guess "Serenity" would've been about as popular...
11:30:05 <elliott> I used to get annoyed at people misspelling my name but now I am old and wise.
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11:30:54 <ais523> I find the person who most commonly misspells my name is me (normally as ais532)
11:31:04 <ais523> because I have to type it in, but everyone else can tab-complete
11:31:14 <elliott> you can probably tab complete it to
11:31:26 <ais523> not when I'm doing /nick or the like
11:31:44 <ais523> same reason you can't tab-complete a mkdir or the target of a mv
11:31:47 <ais523> (both of which annoy me)
11:32:21 <ais523> I'm a bit more disappointed that you can't tab-complete random hard-to-spell English words, which at least needs less mind-reading skills
11:32:37 <ais523> FireFly: sh(1) is mostly intended for batch use, I think
11:33:01 <elliott> ais523: some clients do that
11:33:06 <ais523> there are shells like bash(1) and zsh(1) for interactive use
11:33:08 <elliott> some operating systems do that, even
11:33:16 <ais523> tab-complete hard-to-spell words?
11:33:16 <elliott> OS X does it with ctrl-esc
11:33:49 <ais523> the easy-to-spell ones often have more options, though
11:34:13 <ais523> I guess it doesn't /have/ to be tab
11:34:23 <ais523> tab's just convenient and traditional
11:34:49 <elliott> which is part of the reason why I never use that feature
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11:36:00 <ais523> where's opt on a mac keyboard anyway?
11:36:11 <ais523> I actually don't know the mac key X Bindings
11:36:21 <ais523> opt = alt, ctrl = ctrl, cmd = super?
11:36:21 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, I misspell my name because I always try to type it _fast_
11:36:24 <elliott> cmd is where alt usually is
11:36:54 <elliott> command is the general shortcut key, opt is the random grab bag of character input/modifiers/etc. stuff that alt is
11:37:05 <elliott> ctrl is a modifier and used in terminals and some shortcuts
11:37:24 <elliott> cmd is in a nicer place for its function than where ctrl usually is on PC keyboards.
11:37:29 <ais523> I actually like the consistency of ctrl in OS X
11:37:39 <ais523> it gives you shellish-emacs bindings in everything
11:37:41 <elliott> and I like being able to do the normal "ctrl+c" stuff in a terminal without giving up actual ctrl
11:38:01 <ais523> last time I used a Mac, I gave up trying to figure out where home and end were
11:38:02 <elliott> which is what I use most often in irssi
11:38:12 <ais523> and just went full Emacs
11:38:18 <elliott> ais523: cmd+left/right is probably what you want
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11:38:32 <ais523> elliott: I did actually know that, I just suck at typing it
11:38:41 <b_jonas> my name is among the words I mistype very often. other words are image (I type imgae) and any word with -io- or -oi- in it (I type the other)
11:39:01 <elliott> and pgup/pgdn are fn+left/right
11:39:07 <ais523> b_jonas: to be fair, your name only makes sense in Hungarian
11:39:21 <b_jonas> ais523: no, it doesn't make sense in Hungarian either
11:39:28 <ais523> fn hardly does anything on this laptop
11:39:29 <elliott> it beats the "awkwardly jam the extra keys in somewhere" laptop paradigm
11:40:17 <ais523> it gives me media keys, volume controls, brightness control (all of that is useful)
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11:40:33 <ais523> also Pause (which is sensible), and Insert (for some reason)
11:40:42 <FireFly> This laptop has home/end/pgup/pgdn on fn+directional keys as well
11:40:49 <ais523> it also took me a while to figure out where sysrq was
11:41:01 <ais523> turns out it's alt+prtsc, just like on a typical desktop keyboard
11:41:23 <FireFly> I don't think mine actually has either of those :\ at least it isn't printed on the keyboard
11:41:24 <ais523> hmm, probably I should upgrade Ubuntu, because they got rid of upstart in favour of systemd
11:41:35 <ais523> I originally didn't mind upstart
11:41:50 <ais523> but got furious when I tried to REISUB and found that upstart completely sabotages the intent of the E and the I
11:42:33 <ais523> b_jonas: standard emergency reboot code on Linux, yep, sysrq-based
11:42:42 <ais523> some people use different orders for the letters but that's the only one that makes sense to me
11:42:55 <ais523> R forcibly resets the terminal settings for the current VT to sane defaults
11:43:01 <ais523> makes it possible to see what you're doing, sometimes
11:43:04 <elliott> tbf systemd may not be your thing if you dislike things that sabotage the intent of traditional methods
11:43:14 <ais523> systemd reminds me of NitroHack
11:43:33 <elliott> (this isn't intended as systemd flamebait.)
11:43:41 <b_jonas> (I heared people complain about systemd)
11:43:51 <elliott> I'm not really complaining.
11:44:00 <ais523> I'm willing to give it a chance
11:44:08 <elliott> my opinion on systemd is roughly "please calm down, everyone"
11:44:12 <ais523> referring to systemd in the singular doesn't really make much sense given how many things it is
11:56:14 <nvd> I don't know much about systemd
11:57:04 <ais523> nvd: I suspect most people who have strong opinions about it don't
11:57:08 <oren> I know REISUB but I didn't know upstart doesn't do it right?
11:57:15 <ais523> oren: the problem is when you hit the E
11:57:32 <ais523> it terms all processes other than PID 1 (which is upstart in this case)
11:57:39 <ais523> then upstart busily tries to start them all again
11:57:45 <ais523> then the same thing happens again on the I
11:58:26 <oren> why does it try to start them????
11:58:53 <ais523> presumably it thinks that's its job
12:00:13 <oren> ethey need to at least add a key to stop respawning...
12:00:22 <elliott> the kernel isn't in charge of that.
12:00:49 <elliott> ais523: there's a reason the init system is involved in the shutdown proess
12:00:54 <elliott> it's precisely things like that
12:01:11 <ais523> elliott: I thought it was because it made sense to place the code for starting things and stopping things in the same place
12:01:35 <elliott> you need some kind of cooperation when you have a service manager
12:01:45 <elliott> even if it's just sending it a certain signal to tell it to stop respawning things
12:02:13 <ais523> well, there are a bunch of potential solutions
12:02:22 <ais523> e.g. PID 1 can be your zombie killer, and PID 2 can be your service respawner
12:02:51 <elliott> it should just send the signal to process 1 too or whatever :P
12:03:12 <b_jonas> ais523: I was thinking it should be two processes, but it's not the service respawner that I think should be split off. it's the runlevel changer.
12:03:29 <ais523> b_jonas: I'd agree, except that "runlevel" isn't a concept that most of the init replacements like supporting
12:03:46 <elliott> it's more like they support superset s of that concept I guess
12:04:04 <b_jonas> ais523: sure, so it would change whatever concept it supports then.
12:04:30 <elliott> "changing runlevel" is just telling your service manager that you want it to keep a different set of services up
12:04:33 <elliott> rather than the current one
12:04:52 <elliott> e.g., "keep gdm up, rather than gettys"
12:05:15 <elliott> so that is pretty much fundamentally tied to the thing managing and (re)spawning the services
12:06:07 <b_jonas> elliott: maybe, but there's also a set of scripts it needs to run when the runlevel is changed
12:06:41 <elliott> (I'm following on from your reply to ais523)
12:07:15 <elliott> in systemd I guess you could have your graphical-desktop-thingy service depend on a one-shot service that runs some script and that would achieve the same thing. but again that'd be driven by the service manager.
12:07:23 <elliott> (this is not a systemd-specific thing, just an example.)
12:07:49 <elliott> "runlevel" is not really a terribly useful concept when you have more fine-grained service management.
12:08:00 <b_jonas> elliott: oh, so those scripts are "one-shot services"? ok
12:08:10 <oren> What does puppy linux use?
12:08:13 <elliott> well, a one-shot service is one that runs a script when you start it and then just sits there
12:08:29 <b_jonas> and of course, it can be more fine-grained than just runlevels
12:08:34 <elliott> you can implement that concept in a system that deosn't support it by having it run a "daemon" that just does something and then sits there forever, I guess
12:08:37 <elliott> not sure the semantics are totally identical
12:08:48 <elliott> I'm just saying that there is no distinct "runlevel/managed-services changer"
12:08:59 <elliott> since it's fundamentally just tellign the existing service manager to manage a different set of services
12:09:06 <elliott> which is also basically all you can tell a service manager to do
12:09:48 <elliott> (whether that's accomplished by modifying the filesystem and then sending the service manager a signal, or using some fancier IPC or whatever, doesn't matter much)
12:11:04 <elliott> (you can "shutdown" by, e.g. telling your service manager that the new set of services you want it to manage is {shutdown}, where shutdown is a service that just shuts down the computer when started.)
12:11:43 <elliott> (so it'll cleanly stop all the running services, shutting dependencies down after the services that depend on them, and then turn the computer off.)
12:12:28 <elliott> (of course you can also just tell it to manage the set {} and then do the shutdown yourself, assuming the process telling it to stop managing things arranges to survive past the mass shutdown.)
12:12:45 <elliott> (I think the traditional killall5/shutdown stuff does some tricks to handle that?)
12:13:25 <elliott> a reasonable behaviour for a service manager when told to kill is to cleanly shut down all the services it manages and then quit, so indeed ais523's two-PID solution works fine there
12:13:47 <elliott> I forget, what signals can't you send to pid 1?
12:13:50 <ais523> I believe systemd uses something similar to the two-PID solution, but don't know the details
12:14:00 <elliott> maybe you can send any of them but some of them will cause a kernel panic...
12:14:05 <ais523> I believe you can only signal PID 1 with a signal that it explicitly installed a signal handler for
12:14:37 <ais523> yep, just checked the man page to confirm
12:14:40 <elliott> so basically I think that it's sysrq in the wrong here, and it should just include PID , and then if everything else is written how I'd write it, it'd work out fine :P
12:14:54 <ais523> hmm, is it legal to install a handler for sigkill, even though it wouldn't run?
12:15:18 <ais523> I think there might be problems with a system with no init
12:15:29 <ais523> although if there are no other processes either, maybe not?
12:15:45 <ais523> I wrote a minimal init impl for web of lies
12:15:58 <elliott> what as that in reply to? the line "I think there might be ..."
12:16:11 <elliott> what was the line mentioned in reply to
12:16:37 <ais523> oh, that was in reply to killing all the processes including PID 1
12:16:54 <ais523> (Linux actually has a PID 0 too, or at least used to, but that's an implementation detail)
12:17:45 <elliott> okay yeah I guess the problem is that it'd exit
12:17:56 <elliott> tbh, my objection to the two-pid sysem is just that it makes pstree uglier.
12:18:31 <ais523> you have two separate trees, one for processes that started indirectly as a result of the boot process
12:18:37 <ais523> the other being processes that started for other reasons
12:18:46 <ais523> and with systemd technology, that might not be an empty set
12:19:23 <elliott> I do not believe systemd uses two pids.
12:19:33 <elliott> everyone gets upset at systemd putting so much stuff in PID 1 :P
12:20:55 <ais523> elliott: from what I've seen that's misinformed, in that it puts most of that stuff in other single-digit PIDs instead
12:21:06 <ais523> this sort of flamewar is basically never well-informed :-(
12:21:11 <elliott> I don't remember my pstree always being two-deep when I ran systemd.
12:21:22 <elliott> yes there are auxiliary systemd-* things that run too though
12:21:38 <elliott> but that's my recollection
12:21:47 <ais523> perhaps PID 1 does the process-starting
12:21:52 <ais523> but other PIDs do other things
12:22:03 <elliott> but that doesn't help for your REISUB scenario
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12:22:52 <elliott> I would expect more flamewars if REISUB didn't work with systemd, but then... it not working with upstart sort of surprises me because ubuntu is kinda popular so I'd have expected to see complaints
12:24:03 <oren> Um... I appear to have both upstart and systemd.
12:24:18 <ais523> ditto according to man pages
12:24:22 <ais523> but they can't both be init
12:24:36 <elliott> ubuntu has pulled in some parts of systemd for a long while now I think
12:24:44 <elliott> because stuff depends on those parts
12:24:58 <elliott> or, well, I guess they used a fork of logind?
12:25:05 <elliott> I'm not sure what it'd be installed for.
12:25:09 <elliott> wait, oren, don't you use arch?
12:25:14 <elliott> upstart on arch is very weird
12:25:52 <oren> I'm using an xubuntu system with a ton of stuff I don't need removed
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12:26:07 <elliott> ah, that must be why your system is so reliable
12:27:01 <oren> the software is pretty reliable... the problem is that my hardware is total crap
12:28:10 <oren> but yeah for example I removed everything to do with compositing, and k-anything, and most of the g-things
12:28:39 <elliott> compositing is about more than wibbly shadow effects, y'know
12:30:34 <oren> yeah it also allows transpoarent terminals. but that is done on my client anyway
12:31:27 <oren> My monitor stopped working, so I'm using a 1GB machine as a client to talk to it
12:31:42 <elliott> compositing has benefits entirely unrelated to eyecandy
12:32:27 <elliott> it tears/flickers less and should be just generally smoother/faster
12:33:59 <oren> i'll keep that in mind. I'm looking at a $800-1000 range for my new laptop
12:34:33 <oren> hopefully with that I can run DF and firefox and skype at the same time
12:35:23 <elliott> compositing is basically just "hardware-accelerated window management"
12:35:38 <elliott> it's just that that's also what lets you do the fancier stuff
12:36:03 <elliott> (though it will suck if you have really bad graphics drivers of course)
12:38:36 <oren> Now this is annoying. doesn't anyone sell laptops that weigh more than 30 grams anymore?!!
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12:40:21 <ais523> this one's almost certainly more than 30g
12:40:42 <ais523> I decided to get a powerful one rather than a lightweight one, although note that I have a pretty underwhelming definition of "powerful"
12:40:42 <oren> hmm looks like dells are still sturdy
12:40:54 <ais523> it was mostly just "I want another core", but I couldn't buy a laptop with less than four :-(
12:42:42 <b_jonas> oren: "hopefully with that I can run DF and firefox and skype at the same time" -- nah, that won't work. firefox (and webpages) and skype are both such things that are always slow, no matter fast your hardware is. people just add more resource-intensive stuff to them if they run fast enough.
12:42:54 <oren> It appears in order to get a sturdy laptop from best buy,you have to spend _less_
12:43:09 <b_jonas> what? 30 grams? that's riddiculously light
12:43:24 <oren> It was hyperbole
12:43:40 <oren> But I want some heft
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12:44:04 <ais523> DF is also always slow
12:44:37 <b_jonas> I don't play DF so I can't comment on that one.
12:44:44 <nvd> ais523, how many dwarfs do you have?
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13:08:27 <oren> I have 3 left after my latest scheme involving zompies went wrong
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13:32:35 <b_jonas> question. if a programming language has infix operators with precedence syntax similar to C (C and perl are examples), and you want to add infix min and max operators, what precedence should those operators have?
13:33:00 <b_jonas> oren: zombies? wasn't it were-elephants?
13:33:15 <FireFly> Hmm, that is a good question
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13:33:55 <elliott> I feel like a + b min c should be a + (b min c), but have no particular justification for that.
13:33:59 <mroman> b_jonas: probably just above >,< and >=, <=?
13:34:52 <FireFly> elliott: weird, I intuitively felt the opposite
13:35:02 <b_jonas> mroman: you mean so that you could use them as boolean logic? dunno, that would seem strange to me, though I can't definitely say it's wrong
13:35:15 <elliott> FireFly: it may be Haskell bias. or, wait, how does a + b `min` c actually parse?
13:35:27 <b_jonas> you mean _above_ comparisons
13:35:39 <elliott> so clearly use && and || as the operators
13:35:58 <b_jonas> mroman: so below the shifts? yes, that might make sense
13:36:23 <FireFly> elliott: I.. kinda like that
13:36:45 <b_jonas> I was thinking higher precedence perhaps between multiplication and addition, or even above multiplication, I dunno
13:36:47 <mroman> 5 + 5 min 3 * 3 < 5 max 6 should parse as ((5+5) min (3*3)) < (5 max 6)
13:36:48 <elliott> FireFly: me too. I like it about as much as I hate it
13:36:53 <mroman> but I have no particular justification for that.
13:37:10 <b_jonas> elliott: that wouldn't work, 2 && 7 already has two meanings, we can't add a third
13:37:17 <b_jonas> (one in C and one in perl)
13:37:19 <elliott> b_jonas: it just has to case on type!
13:37:23 <FireFly> Having min/max in-between the arithmetic operators would feel very weird to me
13:37:43 <FireFly> What is the perl semantics for (&&)?
13:37:45 <mroman> min/max for booleans would be fun too
13:37:49 <b_jonas> elliott: yes, but it already has a defined meaning for two ints
13:37:57 <mroman> min is just and and max is just or
13:38:09 <b_jonas> FireFly: in perl, (2 && 7) results in 7
13:38:18 <b_jonas> FireFly: in C, it results in 1
13:38:53 <FireFly> Oh, so the same semantics as in JS I guess
13:39:16 <mroman> I suspect python might return 7 too
13:39:38 <elliott> actually python returns SyntaxError: invalid syntax
13:40:08 <FireFly> In JavaScript || is relatively often (in)famously used to fall back on null to a default value
13:46:47 <FireFly> Interesting, I didn't know there's a conference on Go: http://pasky.or.cz/iggsc2015/cfp.html
13:48:06 <b_jonas> (I'm also not sure what spelling those operators could use in C and C++)
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13:51:38 <FireFly> I can't think of any reasonable ASCIIfication of the usual min/max syntax
13:52:49 <b_jonas> FireFly: /\ and \/ are the usual asciifications
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13:53:40 <b_jonas> /\ is a bit dangerous because it can conflict with existing syntax
13:54:12 <HackEgo> U+1D1B6 MUSICAL SYMBOL MAXIMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 b6 UTF-16BE: d834ddb6 Decimal: 𝆶 \ 𝆶 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
13:54:15 <FireFly> In C? Or in C-derived languages in general?
13:54:21 <HackEgo> U+1D1BB MUSICAL SYMBOL MINIMA \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 bb UTF-16BE: d834ddbb Decimal: 𝆹𝅥 \ 𝆹𝅥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 1D1B9 1D165 \ \ U+1D1BC MUSICAL SYMBOL MINIMA BLACK \ UTF-8: f0 9d 86 bc UTF-16BE: d834ddbc Decimal: 𝆺𝅥 \ 𝆺𝅥 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
13:54:42 <b_jonas> FireFly: in C and C++ specifically
13:55:20 <b_jonas> \/ is safe but only because the backslash character is barely used for anything
13:55:38 <FireFly> What /is/ it used for, outside of string literals?
13:55:55 <b_jonas> it's quite hard to invent a reasonable digraph for C and C++ that doesn't conflict with _some_ existing syntax actually
13:56:16 <b_jonas> FireFly: line joining, and these days as an escape for extended identifiers too
13:56:35 <FireFly> Oh, I guess /*"*/\x20" would be anoter conflicting case
13:57:33 <b_jonas> (also can be part of include filenames, for crazy windows people)
13:57:40 <FireFly> @ isn't used a whole lot in C
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13:58:41 <b_jonas> which is exactly why people are reluctant to give it meanings
13:58:58 <b_jonas> they're useful as escapes outside C or C++ because they're not used in C or C++
13:59:49 <b_jonas> something like ^| might work but it's a bit ugly
14:00:52 <mroman> just use >| and <| or something like that
14:01:21 <b_jonas> mroman: no, >| conflicts with C++ syntax
14:01:54 <b_jonas> the > can be the closing delimiter of the template parameters of a variable template
14:01:55 <FireFly> >< and <> would be annoying.. I'm not sure which would mean what, and <> is sometimes used to mean "different from"
14:01:59 <Jafet> <> is an empty template list
14:02:11 <b_jonas> >< also wouldn't work, for the same reason
14:02:18 <mroman> oh. I thought you said C
14:02:25 <FireFly> I like the idea of using < and > to allude to "less of" and "greater of"
14:02:27 <b_jonas> mroman: I would like one that works in both C and C++
14:02:49 <b_jonas> but not necessarily in perl or ruby or javascript or java or c-sharp or all the other languages copying their syntax partially
14:02:52 <FireFly> I guess that's the idea behind J's <. >. as well
14:03:31 <FireFly> (in addition to APL using the floor/ceil operators for min/max, and thus J doing that too)
14:03:47 <b_jonas> hmm, would => and =< work?
14:05:13 <b_jonas> hmm no, I think those conflict too
14:08:10 <b_jonas> basically anything involving angle brackets can conflict with template syntax
14:08:54 <b_jonas> oh, let's use (| and (, that would confuse everyone!
14:09:21 <b_jonas> (^ for the ceiling sign and (, for the floor sign
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14:11:16 <FireFly> Do ceiling and floor have any link to max and min?
14:13:49 <nvd> max(a, ceiling(a)) = ceiling(a)
14:15:21 <b_jonas> FireFly: yes, the link is that they have the same notation in traditional APL
14:15:33 <b_jonas> (the left floor and left ceil bracket respectively)
14:15:53 <FireFly> Yeah, but that doesn't really count
14:31:41 <oren> Why can't we use └ and ┌
14:34:16 <mroman> Because we might as well use APL then .
14:34:49 <mroman> which I'm sure sounds worse than it actually is.
14:34:50 <oren> except those chars are much more commonly supported than the apl symbols
14:35:10 <oren> they are the box drawing lines
14:35:36 <oren> supported by e.g. common terminal fonts
14:36:47 <mroman> Sorry. I already used the APL argument. I can't take that back now.
14:37:47 <oren> My objections to APL are unrelated to its weird symbols
14:38:39 <mroman> It's like Godwin's Law.
14:38:44 <mroman> Just for programming languages and with APL.
14:38:53 <mroman> At some point somebody will mention APL.
14:39:02 <oren> The main problem is that the weird symbols are composed with overstrike
14:40:38 <ais523> so INTERCAL isn't unique at that?
14:42:55 <nortti> `learn APL stands for Algorithmic Language
14:42:58 <HackEgo> Learned 'apl': APL stands for Algorithmic Language
14:43:43 <mroman> `learn APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
14:43:46 <HackEgo> Learned 'apl': APL stands for Algorithmic Programming Language.
14:44:07 <nvd> Austrian Potato League
14:44:22 <nortti> `learn ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
14:44:24 <HackEgo> Learned 'algol': ALGOL stands for A Programming Language
14:46:11 <mroman> Algol 68 should have 68 reserved words
14:47:57 <mroman> There are too many damn programming languages
14:48:19 <mroman> and more research should be put into Language interoperability
14:48:56 <mroman> There should be some kind of standard way of doing that
14:49:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Theriel * New user account
14:55:44 <mroman> That time could have been better spent by having a jvm bytecode backend for ghc
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15:50:56 <oren> Algol is like, every programming langugae
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17:03:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42792&oldid=37836 * Theriel * (+2757) /* Probabilistic musings */
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17:45:31 <FireFly> mroman: isn't the standard way of doing language interopability called C?
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20:47:00 <nvd> Help, I am vaguely tempted to vote for a minor party in the election on Thursday
20:48:55 <oren> not like anyone's vote makes a difference
20:50:35 <nvd> oren, I'm actually three thousand two hundred and nineteen people
20:51:48 <FireFly> oh wow, that sounds like a severe split personality disorder case
20:51:51 <oren> Oh, well in that case...
20:52:06 <coppro> nvd: http://www.threehundredeight.com/p/alberta.html
20:52:39 <nvd> coppro, I am not sure how that is relevant, I am in York
20:52:55 <coppro> nvd: you can watch this trainwreck election and forget about yours for a while!
20:53:24 <nvd> Well, I found out this evening that I'm actually in a different constituency to the one I thought I was in
20:54:14 <FireFly> They should rename York to Old York
20:55:20 <oren> Yeah. Especially what with North York and Yorkdale confusing matters
20:55:34 <nvd> FireFly, we're making a new Haskell compiler because YHC sort of stopped
20:55:43 <nvd> We're calling it the New York Haskell Compiler
20:56:00 <oren> (both are in toronto, previously known as York)
20:57:10 <oren> My vote in particular is worthless because they put me in a gigantic riding
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21:53:18 <oren> pkill -9 firefox
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22:00:24 <ornn> would nicing firefox make it so that other programs (like my window manager) get higher access to memory as well as cpu?
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22:02:43 <ornn> Hmmm. I guess whichever process has more time on cpu can put out more page faults to increase its resident set
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22:56:42 <lambdabot> CYUL 052200Z 25014G23KT 30SM FEW065 BKN210 20/M03 A3018 RMK CU1CI6 CU TR SLP220 DENSITY ALT 400FT
22:56:46 <lambdabot> ENVA 052250Z 06008KT 030V090 9999 -DZ FEW040 BKN090 10/06 Q0997 RMK WIND 670FT 13012G23KT
22:57:00 <boily> darn. the difference is diminishing.
22:58:00 <oerjan> we actually had a heat wave today. don't worry, it's supposed to pass.
22:58:36 <shachaf> what's the best @metar for berkeley, ca twh
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23:01:08 <boily> shachaf: wunderground recommends KOAK.
23:01:11 <lambdabot> KOAK 052253Z 26012KT 10SM FEW017 SCT200 16/08 A2993 RMK AO2 SLP136 T01610078
23:01:34 <lambdabot> KSJC 052253Z 32014KT 10SM FEW018 SCT200 19/08 A2991 RMK AO2 SLP128 T01890078
23:01:44 <shachaf> i've moved to the cold climates of the north
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23:02:14 <shachaf> oerjan: everyone knows writing software is the path to maximal fame hth
23:02:51 <oerjan> i may not be maximizing that function hth
23:03:21 <oerjan> berkeley berkeley KOAK KOAK
23:03:56 <FireFly> oerjan: over here it was all foggy during the day
23:03:58 * boily is tempted to mapole some sanity into oerjan, but rescinds
23:04:10 <FireFly> and not particularily warm, I think
23:08:30 <oerjan> boily: do you have a scientific study to prove mapoling adjusts sanity in the correct direction twh
23:09:33 <shachaf> perhaps oerjan will require a hungusprod hth
23:10:01 <shachaf> http://lparchive.org/Zork-Grand-Inquisitor/Update%2017/
23:10:37 <shachaf> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2FiRhbWP7To#t=6m57s
23:12:00 <boily> oerjan: empirical evidence supports mapoling hth
23:13:57 <FireFly> oerjan: do /you/ have any evidence supporting swatting?
23:15:16 <oerjan> i am not making claims of health benefits from swatting
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23:57:05 <olsner> doesn't all evidence (or lack thereof) always support swatting?
23:57:51 <olsner> I also think mapoling is isomorphic to swatting
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00:05:06 <oerjan> clearly they are at most adjoint
00:06:51 <olsner> adjoint seems close enough
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01:06:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/upload]] upload * Esowiki201529A * uploaded "[[File:X-chromosomes.png]]"
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01:14:52 <boily> classic MacOS window decorations???
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02:10:13 <ornn> bowser jr. iss killng me with these torpedoes
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03:15:25 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
03:15:34 <coppro> which bot can I tell people things with
03:16:41 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
03:18:12 <coppro> @tell ais523 the sky is falling, Alberta elected an NDP majority.
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03:26:56 <ornn> omgwtfroflolbbq
03:29:33 <coppro> 54 seats out of 87 from the looks of it
03:29:41 <Sgeo> (Well, I mean, just the type safety ness)
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03:50:08 <shachaf> `run sed -i 's/evil/famous evil/' wisdom/oerjan
04:03:24 <coppro> @tell ais523 and Premier Jim Prentice announced his resignation not only as Premier and party leader, but even as MLA.
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05:41:51 <nvd> I did not intend to be awake before 7 today
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06:23:16 <Jafet> Apparently there is such a thing as progressive conservatism
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06:50:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42794&oldid=42792 * Theriel * (+3) /* Probabilistic musings */
06:51:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42795&oldid=42794 * Theriel * (+1) /* Probabilistic musings */
06:52:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42796&oldid=42795 * Theriel * (+8) /* Probabilistic musings */
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06:53:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42797&oldid=42796 * Theriel * (-6) /* Probabilistic musings */
06:54:06 <b_jonas> fungot, are you still fungal?
06:54:06 <fungot> b_jonas: and yes)) instead. the old bed cost 10 euros.
06:54:26 <b_jonas> wait, what's wrong with fungot? he gave a straight answer
06:54:26 <fungot> b_jonas: this implementation returns 0, it was the act of extending a set s, with respect to ir. bran, from fnord
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10:21:06 <fungot> mroman: did you miss? everybody is waiting for procedure b, and put that after every instruction instead of " brainfuck"
10:21:18 <mroman> fungot: I guess I missed that, yes.
10:21:25 <fungot> mroman: the reason i declined the internship. i realized its generated :) all on one line, and sent me comments. i refuted most of his trigonometry. joy.
10:21:42 <mroman> It doesn't like generated internships?
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12:12:31 <fungot> FireFly: where do i look much thinner ( and because the function returns. i'm sure there are projects that big.
12:12:31 <HackEgo> 10) <fungot> GregorR-L: i bet only you can prevent forest fires. basically, you know. \ 13) <fizzie after embedding some of his department research into fungot> Finally I have found some actually useful purpose for it. \ 14) <fungot> oerjan: are you a man, if there weren't evil in this kingdom to you! you shall find bekkler! executing program. plea
12:13:03 <fungot> FireFly: i wonder if it is a " plain functional language", in that case rzip just keeps checking very large areas for redundancy
12:13:04 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: pastequote: not found
12:13:13 <HackEgo> bin/paste \ bin/pastefortunes \ bin/pastekarma \ bin/pastelog \ bin/pastelogs \ bin/pastenquotes \ bin/pastequotes \ bin/pastewisdom
12:13:23 <fungot> FireFly: phew i didnt crash it :p
12:13:30 <fungot> FireFly: right now, actually you're the person who can guess what the url was? :) ( aren't i lazy :p) then performed operations on it
12:13:48 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.15018
12:13:54 <FireFly> fungot: no, I can't guess the URL. That's why I asked HackEgo for it
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12:22:21 <S0lll0s> someone want/can help me with ANTLR3? :S
12:28:06 <S0lll0s> I dont wanna do haskell tho
12:38:35 <int-e> http://www.valuedlessons.com/2008/02/pysec-monadic-combinatoric-parsing-in.html
12:38:50 <int-e> (just a random google result for "parsec python")
12:41:19 <b_jonas> ah, Randal has put up an explicit notice that xkcd-what-if is suspended until June
12:41:36 <b_jonas> nice save from not having updated it for a while
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13:15:23 <HackEgo> Your famous evil overlord oerjan is a lazy expert in future computation. Also an antediluvian Norwegian who hates Roald Dahl. He can never remember the word "amortized" so he put it here for convenience.
13:20:04 <oerjan> <nvd> I did not intend to be awake before 7 today <-- i cleverly avoided this by not going to bed until ~ 5
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14:02:08 <mroman> the last one with the spiders wasn't even funny
14:03:31 <oerjan> freefall police chief is on top of things
14:12:56 <int-e> Thanks, I'll probably understand what that means on Friday.
14:13:06 <int-e> . o O ( Both of them? )
14:13:32 <oerjan> int-e: you only read comics on fridays?
14:14:11 <int-e> The latest Freefall comic is inconvenient to bookmark.
14:14:49 <int-e> So I'm lagging behind by one installation (plus another one because I have not read any webcomics today.)
14:16:06 <int-e> oerjan: I want to bookmark the last installation that I've read. So Freefall's dynamic homepage doesn't do the trick.
14:20:02 <int-e> Nice xkcd today though (A colleague mentioned it, so I couldn't help looking at it.)
14:57:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sequential tag system]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42798&oldid=41978 * Keymaker * (+341) Linked two implementations.
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15:13:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42799&oldid=42150 * Keymaker * (+758) Introducing a Turing-complete brainfuck program using only 40 instructions.
15:18:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42800&oldid=42797 * Theriel * (+142) /* Probabilistic musings */
15:39:05 <ornn> Jafet: yes. It basically means that the PC's are centre-right
15:41:38 <ornn> from an american standpoint they do often seem to be...
15:42:14 <quintopia> oh "progressive conservative" weird
15:42:48 <ornn> thry are certainly far to the left compared to the Republican party. our politics are redshifted
15:46:02 <quintopia> i have started to see this fact as somewhat of a good thing. it gives us a longer opportunity to evaluate traditional perspectives. it's pretty clear that we are fully capable of rejecting them quickly once we've reached "critical mass" or something like it
15:50:19 <ornn> Although I wonder if, over time, the liberals become conservatives who want to conserve the "new normal"
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16:00:32 <oren> why do routers need rebooting so often, while webservers can have 99.99% uptime?
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16:11:18 <Jafet> If you don't like that, you can try buying an equally expensive router.
16:14:30 <quintopia> is expense a reliable proxy for reliability?
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16:17:47 <Jafet> Now, getting reliable proxies is a more difficult problem altogether.
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17:55:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Sequential tag system]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42801&oldid=42798 * Keymaker * (+67) Added one in Hollow.
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18:15:00 <oren> interesting. DF has good weather simulation, such that when it is raining at Z=150, it is snowing at Z=230
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21:02:06 <nvd> It occurs to me that I have completely forgot what my profile picture on the IWC fora does
21:02:11 <nvd> (it is a Piet program)
21:03:32 <oerjan> if there only were a way to find out
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21:22:07 <nvd> I believe it says something like "TANEB'S PROFILE PIC"
21:23:26 <lambdabot> ESSB 062050Z AUTO 16005KT 9999 NCD 09/05 Q1007
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21:23:48 <lambdabot> ESSA 062050Z 18003KT CAVOK 10/07 Q1007 NOSIG
21:25:04 <lambdabot> ENVA 062050Z 02001KT 9999 FEW027 BKN046 11/08 Q0999 RMK WIND 670FT 12001KT
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21:46:30 <lambdabot> CYYZ 062100Z 15005KT 15SM FEW280 21/04 A3021 RMK CI2 SLP231 DENSITY ALT 1000FT
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22:08:45 <shachaf> oerjan: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/10390 suggests that the constraint ordering thing is more of a problem than i thought
22:10:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42802&oldid=42779 * 73.25.229.88 * (+781) SNUSP, with an efficient square routine
22:10:38 <shachaf> oerjan: whoa, you're in here?
22:10:51 <shachaf> i assumed you would see the message many hours later
22:12:01 <oerjan> shachaf: i could imagine this gets very tricky if ApPair and Num are replaced by something more type-computational
22:13:27 <oerjan> (you did see my type family superclass example back when, didn't you)
22:15:34 <oerjan> more seriously, since the type also describes the calling API, the desired feature would require runtime conversion...
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22:18:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category talk:Brainfuck derivatives]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42803&oldid=20004 * 73.25.229.88 * (+418) SNUSP is a BF derivative
22:20:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Category talk:Brainfuck derivatives]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42804&oldid=42803 * IanO * (-7)
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22:26:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42805&oldid=42311 * IanO * (+179) /* Square root */
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22:35:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42806&oldid=42802 * IanO * (+27) cat:Program forms, since implemented in other esolangs
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22:48:14 <FireFly> Did anything happen with that BANCStar recovery project?
22:49:02 <oerjan> it fizzled and whizzled and dizzled away
22:49:40 <oerjan> i suppose some email was never answered, or answered negatively.
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22:52:07 <oerjan> (the one to that guy who _maybe_ had a disk somewhere)
22:55:16 <shachaf> oerjan: which superclass example twh
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22:57:31 <oerjan> http://oerjan.nvg.org/haskell/TypeableDesign/PolyTypeable2.hs hth
22:59:24 <oerjan> shachaf: aka how to infer kinds "properly" in Typeable with only 7.8 features.
23:00:29 <oerjan> (good luck testing if rank-n types are compatible with that...)
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23:59:23 <boily> fungot: what's a QNKCDZO?
23:59:23 <fungot> boily: should i run it.... its fnord...
23:59:42 <boily> fungot: a run-of-the-mill fnord? I should've guessed it.
23:59:42 <fungot> boily: i guess the syntax", which means most languages, and there's weird things involving crazy symbols and actions. i'm purely interested in the levenshtein distance, you have 1
00:00:12 * boily is disturbed to find he's only one step away from fungot...
00:00:12 <fungot> boily: i was going to ask " i am alive") -3? mines " friends"
00:00:23 <boily> fungot: you. are. not. alive. stop being sentient.
00:00:23 <fungot> boily: pittsburgh is a harsh mistress guy. :) there were some nice talks as well"? :p
00:00:44 <boily> fungot: and don't frolicate with guys from Pittsburgh! you'll catch something.
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00:27:35 <FireFly> fungot: crazy symbols and actions? maybe you're thinking of APL
00:27:35 <fungot> FireFly: an error: invalid output format ( result was not a tease, i was
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00:27:59 <FireFly> fungot: you sure were, yes
00:27:59 <fungot> FireFly: lazy-k can execute s and k. they went under the middle finger, the same time.
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02:49:49 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/e0lk07545/ <- dwarven apartment complexes, carved from the living rock
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04:24:15 <HackEgo> olist 983: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
04:24:57 <Sgeo> I was looking at that exact twitter feed just now, and getting annoyed that something screwed up the apostrophe
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04:32:53 <Jafet> Living rock? Sounds like an evil biome thing.
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05:30:59 <oren> nah, just a poetic/dramatic way of saying "natural engravable stone"
05:32:01 <oren> The mountain I picked reaches almost to 256, so I was able to carve quite a hive-city out of it
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06:45:51 <b_jonas> oren: ah great, images made of tiles that the wobsite insists on making a “thumbnail” image despite that the original resolution compresses so well because of the tiles that the file size of the original is actually way smaller
06:46:25 <b_jonas> oren: on this site, it's a jpeg thumbnail of a png file. on http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/ , it's resampled thumbnails made of every level map.
06:46:58 <b_jonas> these wobsites should really check the damned file size of the result, and use the original if it's smaller.
06:48:16 <oren> that's also why I can use DF over X network wihout any problem
06:50:26 <oren> speaking of website problems, google no longer works on text-browsers, because it refereshes infinitely
06:50:48 <b_jonas> eg. http://www.shikadi.net/keenwiki/File:Ck2lv16.png the original file is 28 kilobytes, the rescaled thumbnail is 235 kilobytes.
06:51:21 <b_jonas> I mean, maybe it has ugly layout or something
06:51:33 <b_jonas> (it already has on anything without css)
06:52:09 <b_jonas> indeed it tries to refresh infinitely
06:53:53 <oren> Bing, yahoo, yandex and baidu still work.
06:54:10 <Sgeo> oren, is that related to why sometimes Chrome Incognito crashes on Google search results?
06:54:19 * Sgeo has actually used Bing at times because of that
06:54:28 <b_jonas> (my own homepage should work, though the layout is uglier)
06:55:56 <b_jonas> but yes, I too am noticing an increasing amount of sites that require crazy javascript browser stunts and still show up broken
06:56:10 <b_jonas> I don't know why they do that
06:57:40 <b_jonas> you know when I asked if there were wikis that used a vcs as their storage engine?
06:58:21 <b_jonas> I realized github might be used as such a wiki, because it shows you a vcs-controlled tree, and can formats documents with some wiki language.
06:59:12 <oren> yeah, that works.
07:03:26 <b_jonas> so basically any of the dozens of web vcs ifaces work if you throw in a wiki formatter
07:11:25 <fowl> your project wiki is a repository on bitbucket, i assume its the same for githubs wikis
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07:56:38 <oren> as I always say, the best defense is a deep deep trench
08:00:50 <nortti> 09:58 < b_jonas> you know when I asked if there were wikis that used a vcs as their storage engine? <-- there was also one by suckless, altho in the good old suckless fashion it lacked vital features like web editor
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08:41:02 <oren> I have to admit, that if your crossing guards can beat enemy commandos that is one way to stop a fifth coloumn
09:02:03 <nvd> Aaaaaaaaah
09:23:43 <izabera> !bf ++++++++[->++++++++<]>+.......
09:27:49 <oren> I not sure I folow. it looks like a typical old man haircut
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09:51:32 <oren> lol. I would probably vote for anyone who had a silly enough hairstyle
09:51:39 <nvd> Oh yeah, I need to vote
09:51:57 <nvd> TO THE POLLS!
09:58:19 <elliott> can I vote? I guess I am of voting age now. weird.
10:03:05 <oren> then i guess you can vote, assuming you want to
10:04:22 <elliott> there are other obstacles to that, but yes, I don't think my vote would be particularly relevant anyway
10:05:23 <oren> (electoral district) is very large, so my vote counts for very little
10:05:49 <b_jonas> riding amulet? that doesn't exist
10:06:04 <b_jonas> there's riding boots and riding gloves
10:06:22 <oren> BLAH this keyboard is all msesed up
10:07:12 <oren> i'm using a 10 year old laptop to talk to my 3 year old laptop
10:09:21 <oren> It has the symbols in weird places, like there is a $ and a euro sign next to the arrow keys
10:09:57 <oren> and the enter button is shaped wrong
10:11:30 <nvd> elliott, if you registered in time, you can vote
10:11:38 <nvd> And PARTICIPATE IN DEMOCRACY
10:11:41 <b_jonas> oren: can you just plug in an external keyboard?
10:11:55 <oren> why did i not think of that
10:11:55 <elliott> nvd: okay, yeah, I didn't register.
10:12:05 <nvd> Then you can't vote
10:12:14 <nvd> Mystery solved, I guess
10:15:15 <oren> dastards! the plug isthe round one, and I don't have an adapter
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10:16:36 <b_jonas> oh dear. the puns, they're horrible. they burn.
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10:20:02 <oren> damn it this is what happens when you change the plugs! All plugs for each peripheral should stay the same forever
10:21:16 <b_jonas> oren: changed from what to what this time?
10:21:52 <oren> Well the laptop has usb only, and I only have round-plug keyboards
10:24:35 <oren> The round plug ones let you press more buttons at once
10:25:58 <oren> I think there is a proper name for the round plug but I don't know it
10:28:05 <oren> Oh right. I'ts
10:28:18 <oren> stupid enter key
10:29:44 <oren> I think they changed from PS/2 to usb so they could make the laptops thinner. ashats
10:29:58 <int-e> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DIN_connector
10:32:25 <oren> so they changed it before that, from a think that looks almost the same as a PS/2 but is incompatible? asshats
10:35:04 <oren> they could have just switched to a 8-pin DIN for backward compatibility
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10:40:59 <b_jonas> the small round plug is PS/2, the big round plug is AT (DIN)
10:41:17 <b_jonas> oren: no, it looks _nothing_ like a PS/2
10:42:24 <oren> damn they should put somehting in the photo for scale
10:42:45 <b_jonas> I don't know why motherboards have changed away from AT plug, but that's happened like 15 years ago, sadly
10:43:38 <oren> how many q's can you put in \quad
10:43:42 <b_jonas> today's motherboards often don't work properly with AT keyboards even with a passive AT-PS2 converters
10:43:47 <int-e> cheaper parts, maybe.
10:44:11 <b_jonas> int-e: possible, because this way the mouse and keyboard uses the same type of connector
10:44:26 <b_jonas> or maybe PS/2 is just smaller so it fits better on a notebook
10:44:50 <int-e> Right, but mice could've used the DIN connector as well. Heck they used the even larger serial connector for some time.
10:46:51 <b_jonas> they could have just kept the serial port if they gave the serial port controller a better interface (with a buffer so the cpu doesn't have to be interrupted for every fricking byte read or written)
10:47:12 <b_jonas> it could even be backwards compatible for both software and periferials
10:49:06 <oren> with today's 6 core and 8 core computers couldn't you just interrupt only one particular core?
10:49:26 <b_jonas> but still, interrupting for each fricking byte is a waste
10:49:35 <oren> should be each block
10:49:36 <b_jonas> it made sense back when that made the controller hw cheaper
10:50:09 <oren> good for a responsive mouse though I bet
10:50:22 <b_jonas> but these days every controller is handled by a small microcontroller that can handle a small buffer. probably serial port controllers are too.
10:50:41 <b_jonas> do you remember when laser printers had 128 megabyte of memory in them?
10:50:51 <b_jonas> well, these days hard disks have 64 megabyte of ram
10:50:59 <b_jonas> they're throwing megabytes at everything
10:52:58 <boily> b_jellonas. wait wait wait. you're saying that hard drives have ram???
10:53:20 <oren> Yeah they cache your accesses
10:53:58 <b_jonas> that they have ram is not surprising, it's that they have so much ram that's strange
10:55:45 <oren> I assume it is so that they can read ahead several blocks and serve them up continuously
10:56:47 <oren> Eventually they will export the whole filesystem into the hard disk's controller
10:56:56 <b_jonas> sure, but sixty four megabytes? we used to run entire computers in that
10:57:40 <b_jonas> also, I'm downloading files from the internet that are larger than the whole hard disk capacity I had back then,
10:57:48 <b_jonas> and working with data of sizes I couldn't even imagine would exist
10:58:00 <b_jonas> and I'm not even working with large databases like some people I see on the internet do
10:58:59 <oren> One corpus I am currently semi-working on is 10GB of CSV data
10:59:10 <oren> detailing hockey players
10:59:18 <b_jonas> oren: doesn't sound too big
10:59:35 <oren> it isn't that big in todays terms
10:59:44 <oren> but that's what I mean
11:00:02 <b_jonas> do you load all of it in memory?
11:01:00 <oren> no, i don't have enough memory, so my programs have to act on streams
11:01:52 <oren> I wonder if I could get 6GB of memory on AWS
11:02:03 <oren> that would make things easier
11:02:54 <Phantom_Hoover> nvd, i saw that hexham's counting isn't due to finish until noon tomorrow
11:03:05 <nvd> Phantom_Hoover, good think I'm in York Central
11:03:12 <b_jonas> I enjoy how the computers got more powerful though.
11:03:44 <oren> yeah... the problem is how we all waste the power we are give so much
11:05:36 <oren> I mean, I'm wasting a ton of cpu and memory by storing this data as CSV
11:06:33 <oren> have to parse text number to binary, do math, then convert back with every operationO\
11:07:39 <oren> I wonder how efficient the scanf implementation is?
11:17:19 <oren> Bah I oughta be using fwrite fread for this
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11:27:21 <Jafet> RAID controller firmware is already more complicated than filesystems.
11:30:41 <oren> I dunno much about RAID, but I was thinking that maybe the next gen disks could take an inode number and offset to read or write
11:33:18 <nvd> Phantom_Hoover, Hexham'll go conservative almost certainly, though
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12:50:12 <callforjudgement> <spambot> This letter will definitely be amazing to you because of its realistic value.
12:50:22 <callforjudgement> that spam caught my eye because the subject line was a couple of IPs
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14:30:33 <oren> success. 10GB of CSV = 5 GB of union{int64_t i;double d;}
14:31:42 <oren> still too large to fit in memory
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14:32:59 <nvd> Do you need it all in memory, oren ?
14:33:41 <oren> no,, but it would make certain operations faster, in particular sorting the data
14:34:28 <oren> also now I need to rewrite my programs for the new format. but not having to parse CSV should remove a lot of overhead
14:37:02 <elliott> er, what are you using that union for?
14:37:30 <oren> Don't worry I'm not using both members at once
14:37:52 <elliott> right I figured you're more ethical than that
14:37:54 <oren> Which it is depends on the column number
14:37:59 <elliott> but do you know the type contextually, or do you have a type tag?
14:38:26 <elliott> oren: if you know the layout of each row, why not just make a struct for the row?
14:38:27 <oren> E.g. column 5 is the player who assisted
14:38:48 <oren> because it's a pain in the butt
14:39:25 <elliott> are you just mmapping a file and using it directly? make sure you take into account alignment and endianness concerns and so on
14:39:29 <oren> also it allows the conversion program to be generic
14:39:47 <oren> nah, fread fwrite
14:40:00 <oren> I don't have enough memory to mmap the whole file
14:40:34 <elliott> erm, mmap doesn't use physical memory, it uses virtual memory
14:40:40 <elliott> that's the whole point in fact
14:41:08 <elliott> (ok, yes, some of the file will probably get cached in memory or whatever, but that happens whenever you use files and it doesn't make you run out)
14:41:37 <elliott> okay, okay, with overcommit disabled things can get a bit dicey, but I don't think it complains about file-backed overcommit then, just anonymous?
14:41:49 <elliott> but also turning overcommit off entirely breaks lots of things and the default is lenient
14:42:01 <oren> i'm not actually modifying the file.
14:42:25 <elliott> I would say mmap is more useful for reading than modifying anyway...
14:42:29 <oren> I'm reading over it and generating another file e.g. running averages of a player's perfoirmance
14:42:49 <elliott> it just sounds like you vastly underestimate mmap in general
14:43:31 <oren> The datails of what I'm doing are told to me by someone who actually follows hockey
14:43:42 <elliott> I would almost say mmap is the whole point of virtual memory with unix
14:43:56 <elliott> but that might be a little hyperbolic
14:45:29 <oren> can I be sued for downloading an entire website and converting it to CSV?
14:45:30 <b_jonas> I'd say mmap is the main _interface_ for users processes to control virtual memory (together with munmap, mremap, mprotect, madvise, msync, and execve)
14:46:12 <elliott> b_jonas: right, I just mean that you can think of it as the "killer app" in some sense
14:46:15 <b_jonas> though POSIX defines abstractions like shm_* over it (and it doesn't even insist that those are implemented in terms of mmap)
14:46:29 <elliott> oren: the answer to "can I be sued for X" is yes, pretty much
14:46:53 <elliott> ideally, ask first, but at least use reasonable rate limits if not
14:48:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42807&oldid=42805 * IanO * (+506) /* Examples */
14:48:59 <oren> hmm.. they disallow some parts, but not the giant database I'm after.
14:49:33 <oren> The data I have, I got from a zip someone else made
14:52:16 <oren> wow this is a lot of data. it details who was on ice when, for every game since 1980
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15:44:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Small s.c.r.i.p.t.]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42808&oldid=36724 * Esowiki201529A * (+0)
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16:47:47 <nortti> https://github.com/stedolan/bf.sed so, this is a thing
16:50:35 <oerjan> hm a compiler sed should be enough for that.
16:53:54 <fizzie> I was writing a Befunge-93 interpreter in sed, but never really finished.
16:54:35 <fizzie> I think it had the basic mechanisms of fetching instructions from the playfield, moving the IP, manipulating the stack, and that was about it.
16:58:07 <oerjan> hm was sed TC or not again
16:59:07 <oerjan> it had conditional jumps, so presumably
17:01:01 <b_jonas> oerjan: it's TC unless you're using one of those crazy variants that limits the length of the line to 1024 bytes -- but those variants are useless even for normal non-esoteric stuff.
17:01:32 <b_jonas> oerjan: I mean, come on, it can do fixed string substitutions, and can loop, so it's clearly turing complete.
17:03:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42809&oldid=42112 * 96.127.247.225 * (+17) Update pastebin link to github link
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17:37:29 <elliott> "there's no arithmetic in sed"
17:37:33 <elliott> pretty sure sed can do that?
17:37:44 <elliott> it's TC I think but I guess there might be restrictions on output there
17:38:36 <olsner> afaik, sed is a superset of Thue, which is also TC
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17:41:26 <int-e> @index Applicative
17:45:06 <elliott> thue is nondeterministic but yes
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17:51:30 <b_jonas> visual studio 2013 comes with the visual C++ 2013 compiler which is somehow also called msvc 1.2, and identifies itself as "Microsoft (R) Optimizing Compiler Version 18.00.30723.0"
17:51:44 <b_jonas> how do these version numbers work? is there somewhere that describes this?
17:52:24 <pikhq> Just remember it only implements a 25 year old version of C and you'll know all you need to about it.
17:52:54 <olsner> visual studio will have its own version number too, I don't remember how they map beyond VS .NET aka (iirc) 7.0 though
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18:20:20 <oerjan> <b_jonas> how do these version numbers work? is there somewhere that describes this? <-- i think the basica principle for version numbers is "you have to change the entire system at least once a decade" hth
18:21:05 <oerjan> what happened to the poor thing
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18:28:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42810&oldid=42742 * 31.185.153.201 * (+88) /* Befunge-98 and beyond */ Fungewars
18:29:38 <nortti> hmm, are there any actual examples of a universal turing machine - that is, a turing machine able to simulate any turing machine?
18:31:27 <nortti> hmm, I guess a minsky machine wouldn't be too hard to implement, however that'd feel just silly
18:33:46 <impomatic_> I think I've got an example here, but it's in a GIF or something...
18:34:27 <oerjan> it's not something that sounds particularly hard, it'd just be an interpreter...
18:34:52 <oerjan> unlike the godel sentence thing, i've read that's enormous
18:35:36 <oerjan> also, brainfuck can be almost trivially converted to TM form
18:36:49 <nortti> I "need" that for my extended essay (a research essay-ish thingie at IB), as I'm proving computational class of a certain kind of automation I invented, and I'd guess it'd be best to use a program that someone else has created, to make it more "convincing"
18:37:25 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure minsky made a particular one that was TC with no caveats
18:37:46 <oerjan> (stay away from the wolfram thingies with infinite setup)
18:38:26 <impomatic_> Does anyone here know about the Stanford AI Lab references in documents to show who wrote them? [S77,JMC] is obviously John McCarthy. But who wrote a file with [ G,REF]?
18:38:35 <nortti> (technically speaking, I don't need it, but I think it'd be best if I were to illustrate my translation process with some real world example, and preferably at the same time "double prove" the complenetess, as the people assessing it will not know that well this stuff)
18:42:23 <oerjan> annoyingly it seems hard to actually find an exact description of this. maybe ais523 knows one.
18:45:43 <impomatic_> nortti: found the file, not sure if it's something you've seen before http://imgur.com/afocBZq
18:47:13 <nortti> hmm, I guess I could try digging up the original paper and copying it from there, to seem extra-"professional"
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20:02:26 <FreeFull> oerjan: Brainfuck without IO qualifies
20:06:13 <oerjan> possibly nortti might not want to reference that, though
20:06:23 <oerjan> (although it's also known as P'')
20:15:36 <FreeFull> Brainfuck is too complicated anyway, there are similar languages that have fewer amenities and are still turing complete
20:16:55 <oerjan> FreeFull: you realize nortti already has a starting model in mind, right
20:17:19 <oerjan> so it's not very useful if the language is not easy to emulate in that
20:17:52 <FreeFull> oerjan: But the languages would be as easy as brainfuck to emulate
20:18:39 <oerjan> sure, take boolfuck if you want
20:24:05 <oerjan> FreeFull: i'm not sure how that | command is supposed to replace nested []
20:24:42 <FreeFull> Well, there is a brainfuck to tinybf translator
20:26:46 <fungot> >+10>+>+[[+5[>+8<-]>.<+6[>-8<-]+<3]>.>>[[-]<[>+<-]>>[<2+>+>-]<[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>+<-[>[-]>+>+<3-[>+<-]]]]]]]]]]]+>>>]<3][]
20:27:09 <oerjan> need something short with actual nesting hm
20:28:04 <fizzie> oerjan: Just put a loop-to-10 around something short that prints.
20:28:34 <fizzie> I had a simple counterexample for that one bf interpreter that had broken nested loops here.
20:29:37 <fizzie> Although I don't know how the code generated by the translator can work.
20:31:40 <oerjan> ^bf +++[->++++++++[->++++++++<]>.<<]
20:31:40 <lambdabot> Maybe you meant: wn v rc pl id do bf @ ? .
20:31:55 <fizzie> ^bf +++[->+++++[->+++++++++++++<]>.[-]<<]
20:32:09 <oerjan> fizzie: ok it actually works
20:32:53 <fizzie> From the code, I get the feeling that = is "lexically scoped" instead of "dynamically scoped".
20:33:04 <oerjan> ok obvious interpretation is that = is static so | is [ or ] dependent on = parity
20:33:13 <fizzie> We keep thinking of the same things.
20:33:49 <oerjan> FreeFull: the result is really that this isn't simpler than bf, though
20:34:05 <FreeFull> oerjan: Yeah, more state internally
20:34:24 <FreeFull> I wonder if there is another one that has the same amount of internal state
20:35:35 <oerjan> FreeFull: it's not even runtime state, it actually _is_ a bf equivalent when decoded.
20:36:28 <FreeFull> And you might as well encode bf in unary?
20:38:12 <oerjan> well for nortti's purpose you'd only need _one_ bf program encoded, a self-interpreter or the like.
20:38:38 <oerjan> (sounds a bit more verbose than minsky's TM, then)
20:39:08 <oerjan> almost certainly minsky's TM has really verbose programs on the tape, though. maybe it even uses a minsky machine :P
20:44:02 <impomatic_> ^bf +[-[<<[+[--->]-[<<<]]]>>>-]>-.---.>..>.<<<<-.<+.>>>>>.>.<<.<-.<<+.
20:44:29 <impomatic_> ^bf +>-[>>+>+[++>-<<]-<+<+]>---.<<<<++.<<----..+++.>------.<<+.>.+++.------.>>-.<+.
20:45:52 <impomatic_> Hello World! in 79 instructions. hello world! in 66 instructions. (from this webpage http://inversed.ru/InvMem.htm#InvMem_7)
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21:34:06 <nvd> Well, this is certainly an unexpected exit poll
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21:55:55 <spatterworhty> I'm thinking about making a piet assembler, but I'm having trouble figuring out how it would get the algorithm onto the picture.
21:57:23 <spatterworhty> It would first make a graph out of the program, that represents all of the commands of the program, and then it would figure out how to lay the graph down onto the picture in a way that fits nicely.
21:57:47 <oerjan> nvd: is ukip getting the prime minister twnh
21:58:03 <nvd> oerjan, almost certainly not
21:58:11 <nvd> It looks like they'll have precisely two MPs
21:58:25 <spatterworhty> Does anyone have any algorithm suggestions or problems to look at that would help?
21:59:01 <oerjan> graph rendering is definitely _not_ my area of expertise
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21:59:27 * oerjan points at nvd as the resident piet expert
21:59:39 <nvd> I haven't used Piet in years
21:59:50 <nvd> And I don't know a thing about graph rendering
21:59:52 <oerjan> you mentioned it yesterday!
21:59:58 <oerjan> or possibly today, evne
22:00:07 <nvd> Today, here at least
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22:00:12 <nvd> Maybe yesterday for you
22:00:14 <oerjan> nvd: still more qualified than me, hth
22:00:24 <shachaf> oerjan: you also mentioned piet today hth
22:00:25 <nvd> And that was to say I had forgotten what a program I wrote did!
22:00:36 <oerjan> for me, the boundary between today and yesterday gets a bit fuzzy
22:01:07 <shachaf> and now i've cursed myself
22:01:12 <nvd> spatterworhty, if the graph is planar, there's not too much issue, I think
22:01:22 <nvd> Otherwise, you can cross arcs with white space
22:01:33 <shachaf> oerjan: by being the most recent person to mention piet
22:01:40 <nvd> And then it's just the same graph rendering problem as all the rest
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22:02:21 <nvd> spatterworhty, does that help at all?
22:02:21 <oerjan> nvd: if only HackEgo still had access to the logs, we could make a command to check that
22:02:40 <nvd> oerjan, could we patch something up with curl?
22:02:45 <nvd> Or would that be too slow?
22:02:56 <nvd> `run curl --help
22:03:10 <HackEgo> Usage: curl [options...] <url> \ Options: (H) means HTTP/HTTPS only, (F) means FTP only \ --anyauth Pick "any" authentication method (H) \ -a, --append Append to target file when uploading (F/SFTP) \ --basic Use HTTP Basic Authentication (H) \ --cacert FILE CA certificate to verify peer against (SSL) \ --
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22:03:29 <oerjan> nvd: curl may not have access to that server
22:03:51 <shachaf> oerjan: check the world expert on that language, you mean?
22:03:52 <nvd> oerjan, it can scrape the public thingy/
22:04:04 <oerjan> shachaf: yep, aka most recent mentioner
22:04:22 <oerjan> nvd: you do know HackEgo's web access is whitelisted, right
22:04:28 <nvd> I did not!
22:04:35 <nvd> Like, I really did not
22:04:37 <oerjan> if it's even working at the moment
22:05:00 <oerjan> except for `fetch, which is outside the sandbox but you cannot use it in other commands
22:06:35 <oerjan> `curl http://www.esolangs.org
22:06:36 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
22:07:00 <oerjan> it's the same server, is that a problem
22:07:42 <oerjan> we sort of stopped using the web access after all the fun api's stopped working, so it's probably bit rotted
22:08:37 <oerjan> and someone said today a text browser cannot even get google
22:08:51 <oerjan> `curl http://www.google.com
22:08:52 <HackEgo> Failed to connect to socket 2. \ \ curl: (52) Empty reply from server
22:10:29 <int-e> `` ps -a | sed 's=.* =='
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22:23:45 <FireFly> There's a google API that was deprecated five years ago but still works, at least
22:28:02 <spatterworhty> nvd: sorta? I was more hoping to learn if there would be any good resources to look at, or algorithms that would be essential. I can sorta visualize how it would work, but piet has a bunch of weird rules that would have to be incorporated into the design, and I've never worked with graphs.
22:28:42 <nvd> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graph_drawing could be a starting point
22:28:52 <nvd> This isn't something I've looked into before
22:46:47 <Melvar> Heh. This clause I just wrote: “eine als Queue verwendete doppelt verkettete Liste reicht.”
22:47:59 <Melvar> A not insignificant amount of stuff going between the article and its noun there.
22:51:58 <elliott> what's the gloss for that?
22:52:01 <elliott> (if you don't mind giving it)
22:52:30 <elliott> (er, in the sense of word-by-word literal "translation".)
22:56:07 <oerjan> an as queue used doubly linked list suffices
22:57:44 <elliott> I guess it's few enough words to just look them up.
22:57:48 <elliott> and some of them are obvious.
22:57:59 <oerjan> actually i only looked up "reicht" to check that i guessed it correctly
22:58:10 <oerjan> i did have 4 years of german, once
23:00:03 <oerjan> and every word in there has at least a partial cognate in english or norwegian
23:01:36 <Melvar> I suppose I could have replaced “Queue” with “Warteschlange” but I don’t know that that’s really used for the data structure much in practice.
23:01:37 <oerjan> but yeah german phrase order is something different from both
23:02:23 <Melvar> The “pure” German word for a queue.
23:02:52 * oerjan wonders if norwegian has one. "kø" is so much shorter.
23:03:25 <oerjan> there's "venteliste" but that's for writing your name on, not for actually standing in
23:03:40 <oerjan> and it's not reptile-based
23:04:52 <nvd> One thing I like about English is that it's able to take words from pretty much anywhere
23:04:58 <Melvar> For some reason “Schlange” is used for a line of waiting people. “Warteschlange” is a disambiguation versus a literal snake.
23:09:38 <Melvar> I was just writing out how the phrase is composed, but it turns out rather hard to follow. The main point is that argument(s) + participle makes a valid adjective phrase.
23:11:41 <Melvar> Amusingly, German also has “Queue” directly from French, pronounced /køː/, for a pool cue.
23:12:31 <FreeFull> The Polish word for snake also gets used for a hose (wąż)
23:12:39 <FreeFull> A line of waiting people is kolejka
23:13:01 <FreeFull> Which is a word that also relates to trains
23:13:35 <Melvar> And French “queue” means “tail” as well.
23:20:31 <FreeFull> Melvar: You should combine words into longer words
23:20:35 <FreeFull> You're writing German after all
23:25:29 <Melvar> If someone wants a funny gloss, I once composing a lojban sentence expressed “have nine tails” something like “be betailed by nine somethings” (se rebla so da).
23:26:25 <oerjan> the word for train in norwegian is also used for a line of people - but parading or demonstrating, not waiting
23:27:26 <FreeFull> In English, the word train can also be used to mean some form of practicing =P
23:27:27 <oerjan> oh and "kø" means pool cue too in norwegian
23:28:24 <Melvar> One can use “Zug”-related words for parading and demonstrating in German too, but as Mark Twain (?) noted, “Zug” with appropriate modifiers and affixes can be used to express practically anything.
23:29:25 <FreeFull> How many words can you name that have "zeug" in them?
23:29:36 <oerjan> Melvar: i think the -zug suffix that can mean absolutely everything is -tøy in norwegian. which alone means "cloth", somehow.
23:31:04 <oerjan> Werkzeug, verktøy, tool
23:32:29 <oerjan> the process of making jam
23:32:29 <Melvar> “Zeug” at some point meant something like “equipment”, and now by itself means “stuff” or “junk”.
23:32:46 <oerjan> but also some meat stuff
23:33:16 <FreeFull> The Polish word for jam is boring
23:33:37 <FreeFull> Dżem (pronounced similarly to jam, but with an e instead)
23:34:41 <oerjan> Melvar: looks possibly related
23:35:14 <oerjan> nedsyltet i gjeld = drowning in debt
23:35:25 <Melvar> oerjan: Looks like that is it, yes.
23:37:53 <oerjan> sylteagurk = pickled cucumber
23:38:15 <Melvar> It seems to be related to “salt” too.
23:38:36 <FreeFull> oerjan: Specifically a soured one, rather vinegar?
23:38:59 <oerjan> FreeFull: "Sylteagurk er agurker som er syltet i en sursøt eddiklake."
23:39:51 <oerjan> oh sorry, confusing you with FireFly
23:40:18 <oerjan> but "in a sour-sweet vinegar brine" is probably the end of that
23:41:16 <oerjan> Melvar: i note that's apparently Salzgurke in german, so...
23:41:27 <Melvar> oerjan: Depends on the region actually.
23:41:49 <Melvar> I would call it a saure Gurke.
23:42:13 <oerjan> right, de.wikipedia gives both
23:42:36 <Melvar> The German wp article describes them as cucumbers preserved through lactic acid fermentation.
23:43:34 <oerjan> Melvar: hm i wonder if german Geld and norwegian gjeld are cognate, despite having almost opposite meanings
23:44:06 <oerjan> i suppose recipes always vary.
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23:45:58 <oerjan> hm seems so, although wiktionary is missing the norwegian, swedish gäld is cognate.
23:46:59 <Melvar> Hahahah, the synonyms section on “Geld”.
23:47:25 <FreeFull> The Polish word for money is completely unrelated
23:47:39 <FreeFull> What's norwegian for "border"?
23:48:07 <oerjan> FreeFull: for countries, grense
23:48:10 <Melvar> Ash, gravel, clay, coal, toads, mice, …, moss, …
23:48:42 <FreeFull> oerjan: Pretty much the same as German then
23:48:58 <oerjan> FreeFull: the norwegian word for money is "penger" (plural)
23:49:12 <oerjan> presumably cognate to Pfennig
23:49:22 <Melvar> oerjan: That looks completely hilarious to me for some reason.
23:49:59 <Melvar> Like it would mean something like “banger” or “popper”.
23:50:25 <oerjan> well, -er is the most common plural suffix for nouns in norwegian
23:50:42 <FreeFull> oerjan: Border is granica in Polish, and money is pieniądze
23:50:46 <oerjan> it _also_ has the same meaning as in german, sometimes
23:52:06 <oerjan> "Borrowed by the Teutonic Order in the 13th century from a Slavic language (compare Common Slavic *granica (“boundary, border”)), then borrowed again into western German from Polish in the 15th century. Luther helped to popularize the word, which he spelled grentze; another old spelling was Gränze."
23:52:23 <Melvar> oerjan: Do you have something cognate to “Mark”?
23:52:33 <oerjan> Melvar: in what meaning?
23:53:33 <Melvar> Well, mark, border, demarcated land, something along those lines?
23:54:14 <oerjan> some of our county names: Finnmark, Hedmark
23:55:07 <Melvar> Yes, that’s about what I was looking for.
23:55:42 <boily> oerjan: hellœrjan. that would be cognate to fr:marche hth
23:55:57 <oerjan> Nordmarka, oslo's recreational area, Bymarka, trondheim's
23:56:08 <Melvar> There’s also English “march” in the sense of borderlands.
23:58:33 <oerjan> hm it seems to be both romance and germanic
23:59:22 <oerjan> possibly the germanic is original
00:00:47 <oerjan> hm or wait there's a PIE reconstruction *marǵ-
00:02:17 <oerjan> oh margin is via the latin version
00:02:56 <oerjan> the different meanings may have been borrowed back and forth
00:03:23 <oerjan> quintopia: argh need to eat
00:14:48 <boily> QUINTHELLOPIA! WHAT FLAVOUR?
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00:31:30 <quintopia> boily: wanna play game. i feel like game.
00:36:02 <FreeFull> The Polish for a square is kwadrat
00:37:18 <oerjan> FreeFull: i'm sorry, the only correct spelling is "kvadrat" hth
00:37:41 * oerjan finally realizes polish is just norwegian with funny spelling hth
00:37:59 <FreeFull> Polish doesn't even have v as a letter
00:38:23 <FreeFull> oerjan: How about this: yellow is żółty
00:38:41 <oerjan> FreeFull: ok that's a really horrible misspelling of "gul"
00:39:31 <oerjan> i recall an old norwegian encyclopedia that didn't bother giving w its own letter ordering
00:40:24 <oerjan> i'm afraid we're pretty close to english there, "rød" and "blå".
00:43:33 <shachaf> * oerjan finally realizes polish is just norwegian with funny spelling <-- norwegian's spelling is much funnier hth
00:43:40 <boily> quintopia: I would feel like game if I weren't going to be embedding myself deep on my mattress in a few minutes :(
00:44:29 <shachaf> oerjan: you didn't fall for my trap :'(
00:44:33 <quintopia> boily: then take le nap, but DEN PLAY ZE GAME
00:45:45 <quintopia> oerjan: norwegian is good but it just n3eds a little more...polish. hth.
00:46:19 <FreeFull> oerjan: czerwony comes from a bug that red dye was made from
00:47:30 <shachaf> oerjan: the idea was that you would notice the missing hth and think "oh, i forgot to double-hth", but then you'd think "wait, but it's /me, so i don't need to double-hth", and then you would become confused, and check the logs, and finaly swat me
00:48:44 <oerjan> shachaf: your error was to assume i would remember whether i had used hth or not
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01:06:48 <HackEgo> hth is help received from a hairy toe. It is not at all hambiguitous.
01:06:58 <shachaf> It means "hope that helps" or "hope that helped" or something like that.
01:08:14 <spatterworhty> Ah. The way that it was constantly used made me question that interpretation hth
01:08:44 <shachaf> It might be "hope this helps".
01:08:49 <shachaf> "hope this helped" doesn't make much sense.
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01:51:26 <fowl> its only used sarcastically in this channel haha
01:53:31 <oerjan> what a fowl thing to say tdnh
01:58:19 <spatterworhty> It can, of course, be nested arbitrarily deep. htththhthth
01:58:34 <shachaf> i'll have you know oerjan's twin published respectable maths papers about ergodicity or something
01:59:28 <spatterworhty> Ok, so you're even lower than nobodies, neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiirds
02:00:03 * oerjan feels this slight twitching in his power abuse finger
02:00:32 <shachaf> is that the one connected to the swatter
02:00:40 <shachaf> or are you saying i should stop
02:01:57 <oerjan> ^ul (h)S((h)(t))(~:^:S*a~^~*a*~:^):^
02:01:57 <fungot> htththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhtthhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtththhtthhthtthhtththhtthhthtththhthtthhtththhthtth ...too much output!
02:02:56 <oerjan> (this sequence is dense in a nice uniquely ergodic system hth hth)
02:03:53 <shachaf> did you quadruple hth to type that
02:04:39 <oerjan> shachaf: the swatter doesn't work against people calling people nerds, tru fax
02:04:54 <shachaf> wait, you actually did publish papers on ergodic theory
02:04:59 <shachaf> i thought i was misremembering that
02:05:55 <fowl> Ergodic theory (ergon work, hodos way) is a branch of mathematics that studies dynamical systems with an invariant measure and related problems. Its initial development was motivated by problems of statistical physics.
02:06:24 <shachaf> and apparently i have to pay $45 to read it tdnh
02:06:49 <shachaf> did you become the evil twin by selling your soul to publishers?
02:07:03 <oerjan> i don't think i got paid
02:10:17 <spatterworhty> It's like one of those lotteries that advertise money for life, really
02:26:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42811&oldid=42630 * Esowiki201529A * (+43)
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06:13:39 <FireFly> <oerjan> ...but archaic ← Yeah, only used in "i gengäld" ("in return") today, I think
06:20:08 <FireFly> I didn't realise what the etymology was before now, though
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06:58:40 <mroman> Is there a branch of mathematics that studies the impact of mathematical studies on society?
06:59:35 <b_jonas> mroman: I'm not sure such a thing would be a branch of mathematics
07:14:59 <mroman> According to xkcd everything is a branch of mathematics.
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08:44:10 <mroman> why does hIsEOF block?
08:44:45 <myname> mroman: is stdin at eof if the user didn't type yet?
08:46:08 <mroman> i'm not using it on stdin
08:47:58 <mroman> how do I know when reading is finished?
08:48:45 <mroman> hIsReady throws an error when EOF is reached
08:48:52 <mroman> so you should check for EOF before hIsReady
08:49:05 <mroman> but hIsEOF blocks infinetily
08:54:34 <myname> could you provide some more context? if you can pass stdin, it makes perfect sense that it may block
09:13:25 <mroman> I'm using it on a handle of another process
09:13:28 <mroman> launched with shellCmd
09:16:43 <mroman> which uses shell and createProcess
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09:18:21 <mroman> for example with netcat hIsEOF on stdout of it seems to block
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09:19:50 <nvd> Phantom_Hoover, I think in the long term a Tory majority is good because either their supporters are right and they somehow do a good job, or, without the lib dems to blame things on, they get largely discredited
09:19:57 <nvd> Although this is just wishful thinking, I admit
09:20:27 <mroman> http://codepad.org/wgxqfHgF but you can't really make use of that :)
09:21:22 <nvd> What can I say, I am an optimist through and through
09:21:28 <Phantom_Hoover> if there's one thing this election's proven it's that the english public--
09:21:42 <nvd> Although I voted for the only party that deserved to win, Yorkshire First
09:21:46 <Phantom_Hoover> sorry, the swing voters in english marginals who actually decide who the country's run--
09:21:57 <Phantom_Hoover> have an unlimited capacity to believe obvious, utter bullshit
09:23:16 <nvd> (and I could choose to vote in either a tory safe seat or a labour safe seat)
09:26:06 <Phantom_Hoover> in the long tory tradition of 'fuck you, i've got mine' it's vaguely hopeful that they've promised more devolution as a sop to the scots
09:28:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i want to get a degree and go home, i've seen enough of england
09:28:27 <fizzie> Hey, they didn't even let me vote. "Blah blah British citizen blah." (Perhaps a wise decision.)
09:29:41 <nvd> fizzie, I thought resident EU citizens could vote?
09:30:11 <nvd> Resident commonwealth citizens can
09:30:18 <nvd> So you should have been from Malta
09:30:24 <fizzie> "Additionally, the following cannot vote in a UK general election: EU citizens resident in the UK (although they can vote at elections to local authorities, devolved legislatures and the European Parliament)"
09:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> i have the 'fuck off back to eton' song stuck in my head
09:33:02 <fizzie> I think it's the same in Finland: non-Finnish citizens can't vote in the presidential or parliamentary elections, but the rules for the local and EU parliament ones are different. (The former is open to citizens of EU countries, Norway and Iceland, and anyone who's been resident for 2 years or more; the latter to EU only.)
09:34:22 <fizzie> Also: if I vote at the local EU parliament elections, I can't vote at the Finnish one.
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10:47:16 <FreeFull> EU citizens can become UK citizens though
10:49:31 <fizzie> And it's not exactly limited to EU citizens.
10:49:57 <fizzie> You'll ("usually") have to live here for 5 years, at the very least.
10:50:38 <FreeFull> I've lived in the UK since 2006
10:53:52 <fizzie> I understand there's a test, too.
11:01:10 <boily> the UK is a nice place. they even have the same Queen as ours!
11:05:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gemooy]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42812&oldid=40956 * Chris Pressey * (-64) Update link to GEMOOY project NOTES
11:16:57 <FreeFull> boily: Well, she is the Queen of a lot of places
11:18:25 <nvd> She's like both my queens
11:21:31 <boily> nvellod. both your queens?
11:21:46 <nvd> boily, I'm dual national UK/Australia
11:25:15 <FreeFull> She's just one of my Queens (Queen of England)
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12:42:57 <oren> what's the difference between 赤 and 紅?????
12:43:36 <oren> they both mean red but in different contaxts
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12:46:16 <int-e> . o O ( red socks )
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14:39:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42813&oldid=42811 * Esowiki201529A * (+37)
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18:48:47 <nvd> My principles of programming languages module states, roughly, "all languages are turing complete"
18:49:45 <shachaf> oerjan: been a long time since the last olist, hasn't it?
18:49:54 <oerjan> shachaf: several hours!
18:49:55 <nvd> oerjan, I'm paraphrasing
18:50:10 <oren> Well write the author
18:50:18 <oren> and send him a correction
18:50:21 <oerjan> nvd: well that means i cannot judge whether you're misreading or not, doesn't it.
18:50:31 <nvd> The slides say "All languages are computationally equivalent: Turing Completeness"
18:50:50 <shachaf> are the slides actually a comic strip
18:51:01 <shachaf> or is there another reason for the gratuitous bolding
18:51:20 <nvd> shachaf, it's italics but I don't know how to do that in IRC
18:51:32 <int-e> Fun, so there are non-(programming language)s that are used for programming.
18:52:03 <shachaf> this might be your best approximation hth
18:52:04 <int-e> oerjan: that's a tab
18:52:27 <oerjan> int-e: yes, but it's not irc uses tab for anything else...
18:52:28 <oren> just write the professor
18:52:39 <shachaf> oerjan: it's used for tab completion hth
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18:52:58 <nvd> Trying key combos is not working well
18:53:12 <int-e> oerjan: of course it's not displayed as a tab... http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/I.png
18:53:25 <oren> I can moke bold like *bold*
18:53:44 <oerjan> shachaf: that's not part of irc itself, but your client.
18:53:51 <oren> I dono how to make other stuf
18:53:52 <shachaf> int-e: My underlining didn't show up?
18:53:58 <nvd> "All that is needed to make a language Turing Complete is a way of specifying what to do
18:53:58 <nvd> next on the basis of the current state of the ‘universe’. In other words, all that’s needed is a
18:53:58 <nvd> ‘conditional branch’!"
18:54:00 <int-e> shachaf: I'm filtering colors.
18:54:46 <shachaf> oerjan: was unaware my irc client was doing the tab completion tdh
18:54:54 <oren> I am pretty damn sure you need more than a conditional brANCH
18:54:57 <int-e> shachaf: I've found that it keeps me saner. You'll notice that my irssi scheme isn't very colorful either :)
18:55:00 <oerjan> nvd: congratulations, you've entered the "knows more than your teacher" zone hth
18:55:30 <nvd> oerjan, I do not like this
18:55:38 <nvd> Because I have an exam on this in less than a week
18:56:01 <oren> Write the head of CS department
18:56:04 <shachaf> (1) Are all languages computationally equivalent? [y/n]
18:56:45 <int-e> Oh yeah, knowing more than your teachers... When you know everything, you can get a Bachelor's degree. When you realize that you know nothing, you can get a Master's. And when you realize that Professors also don't know anything you can get a PhD.
18:57:13 <oerjan> int-e: wow your irssi theme is even more subdued than mine
18:57:20 <int-e> (Now if I could remember where I've read that...)
18:57:22 <nvd> It's really annoying because this actually contradicts another module I'm doing
18:57:30 <oren> IRSSI has themes??
18:57:49 <int-e> http://www.irssi.org/themes
18:57:54 <shachaf> nvd: pick the contravariant one hth
18:58:06 <oerjan> or maybe not entirely, i don't bold nicks
18:58:12 <shachaf> (because everyone knows that only right modules are contravariant)
18:58:27 <oerjan> oren: i use the clean theme
18:58:42 <oren> I am currently using whatever the defoult is
18:58:45 <shachaf> if i stopped saying "like, whoa, dude" so much, would that make me subdude?
18:58:49 <int-e> oerjan: there's a bit of red in there, too.
18:58:54 <nvd> shachaf, what if I'm doing a module over the ring of differential operators?
18:59:36 <nvd> `learn nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
18:59:37 <int-e> nutritional value decomposition
18:59:38 <HackEgo> Learned 'nvd': nvd is what Taneb calls himself when he wants to feel professional.
18:59:51 <nvd> `? d-module
18:59:52 <HackEgo> D-modules are just modules over the ring of differential operators. Taneb invented them.
19:00:03 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
19:00:27 <HackEgo> Taneb invented persistence long ago, and it's been around ever since.
19:00:42 <nvd> Oooh, that's a new one
19:01:26 <HackEgo> Automatic squirrel feeders are just feeders in the category of automatic squirrels. Taneb invented them.
19:01:27 <shachaf> tell me about your siblings, nvd
19:01:36 <nvd> shachaf, one, thus far
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19:01:59 <nvd> Whence the "neb" in Taneb
19:02:32 <HackEgo> This sentence was invented by Taneb. Taneb invented it.
19:03:04 <oerjan> oren: the default when i started using irssi was dark background i think so i got rid of it as soon as possible
19:03:34 <HackEgo> Topologically, a torus is just a torus. Taneb invented them.
19:03:57 <oren> A video game map is usually a torus
19:04:29 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
19:04:33 <oren> I think Civilization uses a cylinder
19:05:02 <nvd> oren, many video games use a rectangle now
19:05:06 <quintopia> i think pretty much all first person 3d games...do not use any of those things
19:05:53 <oren> All the FF's and Chrono Trigger use toruses. tori?
19:05:56 <shachaf> I'm surprised Taneb isn't a Tanebvention.
19:06:07 <quintopia> there was that one game that used a hyperbolic projective space
19:07:28 <quintopia> this thing http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/VideoGame/HyperRogue it's just an infinite hyperbolic plane
19:08:01 <oren> Apparently it is tori
19:08:12 <int-e> oerjan: http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cOlOr.png is as colorful as it gets, I guess.
19:08:30 <nvd> shachaf, my parents worked together to invent Taneb
19:08:54 <shachaf> nvd: are you going to icfp
19:09:18 <nvd> shachaf, no, I will be in Italy at the time
19:09:28 <nvd> Also I don't think I can easily afford a trip to Vancouver
19:10:03 <int-e> the theme is http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/inverse.theme if anybody cares.
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19:11:07 <HackEgo> The CIs are a secret society led by David Morgan-Mar, bent on conquering the world from Sydney with web comics and unsolvable puzzles. They invented Taneb.
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19:11:27 <int-e> constant irritation
19:11:56 <nvd> oerjan, that's... closer to the truth than I like
19:12:02 <HackEgo> grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ grep: wisdom/¯\(°_o): Is a directory \ wisdom/atrix \ wisdom/brick \ wisdom/burlesque \ wisdom/ci \ wisdom/finnish \ wisdom/gaspacho \ wisdom/gazpacho \ wisdom/htdh \ wisdom/irrelevant info \ wisdom/norway \ wisdom/oerjan_ \ wisdom/spam \ wisdom/sweden
19:12:36 <nvd> A lot of my character development since 2007 wouldn't have happened without the CIs
19:12:36 <oerjan> <oren> I think Civilization uses a cylinder <-- going north of the north pole doesn't quite make sense...
19:13:53 <oren> a sphere with two holes would be equivalent to a cylinder
19:13:56 <int-e> stupid non-toroidal planets.
19:14:39 <oerjan> nvd: exactly as planned hth
19:14:48 <int-e> oerjan: if that was an objection I didn't get the point.
19:14:54 <nvd> For a start, I wouldn't be in this channel
19:15:16 <nvd> I wouldn't have heard of computer science, let alone be doing half a degree in it and be an active member of my uni's computer science society
19:15:42 <nvd> I wouldn't have made a quite large number of friends
19:15:55 <oerjan> int-e: that's a very mysterious channel, #fooooo
19:16:09 <int-e> oerjan: I needed a quiet place to test :P
19:17:39 * int-e still hasn't got the closing > after hilighted nicks right...
19:19:01 <oerjan> int-e: objection to what
19:20:04 <int-e> oerjan: to civilization using a cylinder
19:20:11 <oerjan> shachaf: sorry, i just ate hth
19:20:27 <oerjan> int-e: it was an explanation not an objection hth
19:20:55 <oerjan> shachaf: thanks, now i have to eat again
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19:21:17 <shachaf> oerjan: i'm sure you could get a second helping hth
19:21:30 <oerjan> shachaf: well i do have ten of them
19:22:06 * oerjan vaguely recalls biting his toe nails when he was very small
19:22:28 * shachaf vaguely recalls stapling his thumb when he was very small
19:22:51 <shachaf> I was sure it wouldn't hurt.
19:23:01 <shachaf> I told everyone that it wouldn't hurt, and then put the stapler on my thumb and pushed.
19:23:27 <int-e> But valuable, I suppose. I trust there was no permanent damage?
19:24:10 <shachaf> hmm, i took to biting my thumb maybe 10-15 years after that
19:24:25 <shachaf> there's probably some permanent damage from that
19:25:33 <HackEgo> HtDH is a classic text on How to Design Hotdogs or possibly Hogprams. It is all about functional condiments, and was co-authored by Herence Tao and Don Ho.
19:25:36 <nvd> "Since everything in a programming language consists of sequences of characters" excuse you, Principles of Programming Languages, Piet is a thing that exists
19:26:14 <oren> I don't consider apl to consist of character either
19:26:16 <shachaf> nvd: a language is defined as a set of strings hth
19:26:41 <nvd> shachaf, but a programming language isn't
19:27:01 <oren> Apl uses overstrike, so it isn't a sequence so much as an arrangement
19:27:29 <oren> Similarly, befunge can't really be said to be a "sequence"
19:27:44 <oren> It is a "grid"
19:28:42 <oerjan> "everything can be encoded as a string so we won't bother to distinguish everything from a string" hth
19:29:02 <shachaf> everything can be encoded as a unary string hth
19:29:14 <oerjan> shachaf: that has some overhead tdnh
19:29:46 <shachaf> so does every encoding hth
19:30:10 <oerjan> lisp is sort of not string-based either
19:30:30 <shachaf> if lisp isn't string-based, what is?
19:31:19 <oerjan> sed seems string-based all right hth
19:31:44 <shachaf> if you have two total orderings on a finite set, they determine a permutation on that set
19:32:04 <shachaf> but what if the set is infinite? a total ordering doesn't uniquely determine a permutation, but what sort of ordering does?
19:32:44 <oren> a total ordering plus a given starting point would
19:33:13 <oerjan> shachaf: a well ordering does, yes
19:34:04 <quintopia> since building pattern constructors and such in CGoL is not "programming" because it doesn't use a "programming language", what is it?
19:34:40 <oerjan> that's an interesting question, is there an ordered set with no non-trivial monotone automorphism that is neither well-ordered nor the reverse?
19:35:07 <oerjan> *nor reversely well-ordered
19:36:32 <oerjan> (that's basically equivalent to your question, i think)
19:37:26 <oerjan> shachaf: oh wait the two orderings must be isomorphic to start with to give a permutation
19:37:47 <oerjan> so e.g. omega and omega+1 cannot be used
19:38:03 <oerjan> so it must be the _same_ ordinal, if a well-ordering.
19:38:59 <oerjan> but once you have that, it becomes equivalent
19:45:27 <oerjan> shachaf: oh hm \{ 1/n | n \in Z, n \neq 0 \} is neither well-ordered nor the reverse, but has that property
19:46:07 <oerjan> i.e. the naturals followed by the naturals in reverse.
19:46:46 <oerjan> oh to have the property every subsegment must also have it
19:47:06 <oerjan> (property: no non-trivial monotone self-bijection)
19:50:30 <oerjan> oh hm find a subsegment with the property of minimal cardinality
19:51:04 <oerjan> _without_ the property.
19:57:24 <shachaf> help, you said all sorts of things
19:59:03 <shachaf> anyway well-ordering is just one idea, presumably there are other orderings
20:00:11 <oerjan> but i'm wondering if well-ordering + reverse well-ordering covers all
20:01:57 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suslin%27s_problem seems possibly irrelevant hth
20:04:49 <oerjan> well it's just a problem about orderings that's independent of ZFC
20:05:19 <shachaf> anyway the original motivation for thinking about this was the thing with finite sets where there's no natural isomorphism between total orderings and permutations
20:05:19 <oerjan> but it says nothing about uniquely determined permutations (and indeed R doesn't have them...)
20:06:10 <int-e> O-kay, I fixed the > coloring ...
20:06:41 <shachaf> where defining a "base ordering" to go between permutations and total orderings seemed analogous to defining a basis to go between linear maps and matrices
20:06:57 <shachaf> so i was wondering about the infinite case
20:07:37 <shachaf> and since "every vector space has a basis" and "every set can be well-ordered" are equivalent, i was thinking about using a well-ordering rather than just a total ordering
20:07:46 <int-e> Finally, after 5? 8? years...
20:08:03 <oerjan> wait are they equivalent again
20:08:23 <shachaf> well, both equivalent to the axiom of choice
20:09:24 <oerjan> ok wikipedia claims so...
20:11:54 <oerjan> it's probably the boolean prime ideal theorem confusing me again
20:12:05 <shachaf> "2000 Toril Aalberg and Ørjan Johansen"
20:12:28 <oerjan> as this thing that's _almost_ about bases in a sense, yet weaker than AoC
20:12:50 <shachaf> which thing is almost about bases?
20:12:59 <oerjan> the boolean prime ideal theorem
20:15:12 <shachaf> What are examples of "basis"-type things other than the two I mentioned?
20:16:47 <oerjan> well "every boolean algebra is isomorphic to a boolean algebra of sets"... would be the one i'm alluding to here...
20:17:07 <oerjan> oh and what's this thing again...
20:19:00 <oerjan> the subdirect representation theorem https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subdirectly_irreducible_algebra
20:19:31 <oerjan> it includes at least the vector space and boolean algebra things as special cases
20:20:01 <oerjan> well it's not exactly basis
20:31:25 <int-e> oerjan: hmm, regarding the ordering problem, could something like this work? http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/cantor.png The idea is to add one isolated point in the first removed interval; then two each in the two intervals removed next, and so on... those added points are the only ones that have both a successor and a predecessor in the order, and they can be used to approach all points in the cantor...
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20:31:31 <int-e> ...set by a cauchy sequence... so I don't see how the order has any automorphism besides reflection (which could easily be ruled out by adding yet another isolated point to one side)
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20:35:15 <oerjan> int-e: ah that's something like what i was trying to think of, except i didn't realize you could use just finite sets as "tags"
20:36:15 <Melvar> ( let foo = "world" in interpolate "Hello, ${foo}!"
20:36:31 <oerjan> probably because i was still thinking of well-ordered sets as the thing to start with
20:38:17 <oerjan> Melvar: some day soon it'll turn out idris has become entirely equivalent to perl in power
20:38:52 <int-e> oerjan: Ah, tag, good term. How many tags do we need? Is there a cute aperiodic way of labeling a binary tree that would let us get away with just two different tags?
20:39:24 <Melvar> ( let foo = "world" in interpolate "Hello, ${bar}!"
20:39:24 <idris-bot> When elaborating argument x to function Melvar.Interpolate.interpolate:
20:39:41 <oerjan> int-e: i don't think that is wise because the cantor set _itself_ can easily be transformed
20:39:57 <oerjan> so you don't really have the tree stable
20:40:40 <int-e> oerjan: Yes, basically I'm wondering how weird the resulting tree rotations can become.
20:42:06 <int-e> (abusing the term "tree rotation" -- a tree rotation is a transformation of a tree that doesn't change the order of the leaves)
20:50:04 <oerjan> int-e: i suspect a finite number of tags is impossible, by an explicitly constructed isomorphism
20:50:31 <oerjan> that is, assume that between any two tags all the others must be represented
20:50:56 <oerjan> (if not, pass to a subtree)
20:51:41 <oerjan> and assume two trees use the same set of tags
20:52:06 <oerjan> then i think you can construct a rotation that identifies the tags
20:57:23 <oerjan> argh weekend neighbor party
21:05:59 <fizzie> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensionless_physical_constant "A common example is the fine-structure constant α, with approximate value Expression error: Unexpected < operator.[1]"
21:06:17 <fizzie> Admittedly that seems quite dimensionless.
21:06:44 <oerjan> that's just a sign that we're doomed hth
21:08:43 <fizzie> I'd report a bug, but I've forgotten my account. If it's even the sort of account the bug reporting thing accepts. (It speaks of a "Wikimedia unified account".)
21:09:19 <oerjan> they recently unified all the accounts
21:09:35 <fizzie> I'm sure someone else will notice and report, in the time it would take for me to figure this out.
21:12:32 <FreeFull> It's {{physconst|alpha|round=auto|after=.}}
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21:16:19 <fizzie> Well, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Physconst examples are all also Expression error: Unexpected < operator.
21:16:45 <fizzie> Wait; all under "examples", yes, but only a subset under the "available constants" list.
21:17:22 <fizzie> And the fine structure constant on that page is not broken.
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21:17:56 <oerjan> that page itself hasn't changed since 2012
21:18:12 <FireFly> Looking at the source, I'm going to guess it's an unmatched comment <!-- --> somehow
21:18:33 <int-e> oerjan: btw, yes, the freefall police chief is on top of things
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21:20:37 <fizzie> I can't see any obvious reasons why some work and some don't, but I guess it could always be something caching-related.
21:21:09 <fizzie> Physconst/data was changed semi-recently (May 5), but if it had been broken that long, I would assume someone would have noticed.
21:21:22 <fizzie> (I mean, what do people use Wikipedia for if not physical constants?)
21:22:18 <FireFly> Maybe someone could bring it up in their IRC channel
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21:26:19 <zzo38> A lot of stuff, I expect, you can use Wikipedia for.
21:37:54 * oerjan tried subst'ing the template parts in his sandbox but it only grew larger and suddenly the error message changed
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21:40:04 <fizzie> Perhaps it's becoming sentient.
21:40:12 <fizzie> fungot: Do you have an expert opinion on that?
21:40:12 <fungot> fizzie: it's not defined
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21:49:15 <FireFly> Explains why it's erroring, at least
21:49:30 <FireFly> fungot: so how do we deal with that?
21:49:31 <fungot> FireFly: expressions are function calls, but never grow the stack.
21:49:56 <oerjan> fungot: i am not sure we're talking about the same language here...
21:49:56 <fungot> oerjan: well i wasnt assuming that thered be some response other than booleans." fnord
21:50:32 <oerjan> fungot doesn't seem to like elaborate criticism.
21:50:32 <fungot> oerjan: there's a whole bunch of boys and girls sleep together? how romantic.
21:51:28 <oerjan> fungot: i don't think fizzie wants you to know about such stuff
21:51:28 <fungot> oerjan: guile was my first
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22:25:07 <oren> guile from street fighter? i mean, beauty is subjective, but still... i don't see it.
22:28:37 * oerjan keeps seeing webcomics mentioning TCAF is this weekend so points oren at it
22:32:07 <shachaf> terminal constant applicative form?
22:32:30 <oerjan> toronto comic arts festival
22:33:00 <oerjan> also is that a term, i know what a CAF is, sort of
22:33:03 <zzo38> Now I wrote document of xurn:pokemon: URI scheme
22:34:14 <oerjan> if you don't haf a better pun than that...
22:34:36 <oren> there seem to be many words with silent l
22:35:17 <oren> calf half should
22:44:05 <shachaf> salmon yolk walk talk milk calm
22:45:37 <oerjan> i have doubts about golf too
22:46:31 <oren> milk definitely has a l when I say it
22:47:13 <oren> pillow has at least one l when I say it
22:47:18 * oerjan swalts shachaf -----###
22:48:18 <shachaf> this doesn't work very well on irc where people can just look things up
22:48:31 <FireFly> I didn't realise 'calf' has a silent l.. I don't think I've ever really pronounced it
22:48:46 <shachaf> but a game i play is using nonsense words in a conversation with a non-native speaker
22:49:00 <shachaf> and hoping they figure them out from context and add them to their lexicon
22:49:43 <shachaf> actually i've only done that with "scow" and a few words like that
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23:02:02 <oren> Although, some words I pronounced weirdly when I was qa kid. Psychic had a ps in it for example. (I knew that word from pokemon) I also sometimes still say write different from right
23:03:52 <oren> I really need to learn IPA
23:06:55 <oren> It's kinda hard to explain how write differs. it sort of had a short u at the start before th r
23:07:29 <oren> the vowel from book
23:07:42 <FireFly> I pronounced the p in psychic as well initially
23:08:55 <oren> I think all my friends did too, so it was a feature of the schoolboy-dialect
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00:55:59 <fizzie> Hmm. I wonder what all these are: http://sprunge.us/Ghhc
00:56:45 <fizzie> Or maybe "why" is more appropriate -- "what" is easier to answer: DNS queries, with the destination address referring to a computer that's currently offline.
00:57:46 <fizzie> All the domains (or at least wudi128.com, wudi999.com and wdcp3.com) are registered to a "Wang KangJun" at "QiongShanQuJiuZhouZhen, HaiKouShi, HuNanSheng", China.
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01:00:54 <oren> haikou city hunan province
01:01:27 <fizzie> Some Googling located vague references to a paper called "DNS for Massive-Scale Command and Control", but nothing very clear.
01:05:14 <oren> qiongshan is a district of haikou
01:29:52 <oren> Anyway what about the source ip's? Maybe they're from a botnet?
01:30:59 <fizzie> The source addresses are all unique.
01:31:54 <fizzie> I logged 1943 of these things over 5 minutes.
01:32:03 <fizzie> From http://sprunge.us/YcfN
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01:33:47 <fizzie> I'm just puzzled as to why they are addressed to this destination, given that the computer it's pointing up hasn't been online for quite a while, and last I did my random "wonder what the traffic weather looks like" peek, nothing like this was going on.
01:33:59 <oren> The website itself presents a username field and a captcha, along with a link to download a client program
01:34:05 <fizzie> Well, that sounds botnetty enough.
01:34:57 <oren> All the given links pointed to identical websites, in fact
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01:36:42 <fizzie> For completeness, here's also counts of the suffixes I saw: http://sprunge.us/JcDf
01:40:14 <oren> The javascript on the page, after login success, redirects the user to
01:40:18 <oren> http://tb.53kf.com/webCompany.php?arg=10095449&style=1
01:42:51 <quintopia> a chat room in chinese? must be a command and control room?
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01:47:21 <oren> Well lets see if I can make an account
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01:50:28 <quintopia> are you doing this from a VM? be careful man.
01:52:11 <oren> Hmm seems the chat room is the customer support, not the service itself
01:54:03 <oren> Now lesse what's in this RAR?
01:54:37 <oren> (the "client Program")
01:55:07 <oerjan> R.I.P. oren's computer
01:55:08 <oren> If it's an actual program I'll run in on a AWS windows instance
01:56:39 <oren> WDGameSetup.msi
01:57:03 <fizzie> Hm. The copy I got was over 20 MB.
01:57:30 <oren> Ok firefox is lying to me, ls says 23 MB
01:58:07 <fizzie> I gave it to a random upload-files-and-get-virus-scan-reports-from-N-AV-systems web service, but it wasn't really flagged as known malware. Although one (out of 57) said it matches some test that sounded like a generic keylogger heuristic.
01:58:27 <fizzie> It's quite possible that the software is not related to the DNS traffic at all, of course.
01:58:50 <oren> signing into AWS so I can test thsi
02:08:11 <fizzie> FWIW, the rate they're hitting me has dropped to maybe one query every 5 seconds.
02:14:09 <oren> how long does windows have to take "initializing..." blah
02:23:01 <oren> So now I guess I'll go to the site, download the program and try to install it
02:26:28 <oren> "content from thsi site is being blocked by internet explorer"
02:30:45 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/rbl9i9k79/
02:32:37 <oren> the download link doesn't seem to work well
02:38:35 <oren> cloudflare error
02:43:34 <fizzie> Yes, I got that now too.
02:48:57 <oren> http://postimg.org/image/i9lbg3lst/
03:06:34 <zzo38> Now I invented such URIs as <xurn:pokemon:25> and <xurn:bible:exodus:15:11> and <xurn:icao:cyvr> and <xurn:rdn:com.apple.ostype> and <xurn:mime:subject> and so on.
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03:13:10 <oren> So I intalled the msi sucessfully
03:13:36 <oren> It is some sort of dedicated browser, which goes directly to...
03:13:55 <oren> the very same website
03:14:10 <zzo38> What is that? Why it does that?
03:15:28 <zzo38> If you don't know, then you must learn.
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05:37:36 <zzo38> Which one do you like to disagree?
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08:22:38 * impomatic_ pressed the button https://www.reddit.com/r/thebutton/
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10:06:38 <impomatic_> Is there any way to view deleted wikipedia pages. There's some deleted programming stuff I want to recover and put back online (not on Wikipedia).
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10:29:09 <mroman> heartbeat detectors that work over 9m
10:32:06 <mroman> 16 year old kids injecting anabolica
10:32:09 <mroman> that's also pretty neat
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10:53:38 <elliott> impomatic_: contact an admin
10:54:01 <elliott> there might be a page for requesting it, I forget
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11:19:34 <Melvar> ( \foo : String => interpolate "Hello, ${foo}!"
11:19:34 <idris-bot> \foo => prim__concat "Hello, " (prim__concat foo "!") : String -> String
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12:21:39 <fizzie> oren: FWIW, over the night the DNS traffic suffix has changed to "jijizy.com", which seems to be registered by the same guy, but contains something that looks like a list of pirated movies in Chinese.
12:30:30 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/fGDE <- top 5 suffixes for each block, with the full log divided into 20 blocks.
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12:41:55 <impomatic_> eBay must know something I don't. They've just increased my selling allowance to 13000000.00!
12:43:41 <fizzie> That's an odd sum. (At least if you count millions.)
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13:41:13 <mroman> I wonder how safe simple crypto things are
13:41:48 <mroman> while data: key = sha1(password); encrypt block with key; key = sha1(key);
13:42:36 <mroman> where encrypt is just XOR
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13:44:46 <mroman> let's just hope there aren't many fixpoints in sha1
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13:45:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42814&oldid=42807 * IanO * (+61) /* Square root */ radical, dude!
13:47:06 <mroman> probably weak against known plaintext
13:47:23 <mroman> which allows you to extract sha1(password) which you probably can brute-force somehow
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13:56:30 <fizzie> mroman: Re known plaintext, it also has the problem that guessing any plaintext block lets you decrypt everything that comes after it.
14:02:03 <fizzie> I think the "normal" way to construct a stream cipher out of a hash is to use H(key || counter) -- with 'counter' starting from a never-reused-with-same-key IV -- to generate the keystream. It has the extra benefit that you can parallelize easily.
14:03:22 <fizzie> If "normal" is the right word, since I don't think that sort of thing is really used. Possibly because all the analysis for hash functions has been done with collision resistance in mind, and perhaps also "normal" block ciphers I guess tend to be faster.
14:05:52 <fizzie> A quick search found at least one published-in-an-IEEE-magazine-so-must-be-trustworthy paper about something like that: http://dx.doi.org/10.1109/ICCIAS.2006.295277
14:07:38 <fizzie> (To be honest, I'm not terribly impressed by that paper.)
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14:11:57 <int-e> I love this sentence. "Firstly the algorithm was introduced detailedly."
14:22:39 <boily> int-ello. what dows it mean?
14:23:13 <int-e> I don't know. It's from the abstract of the paper fizzie linked to.
14:23:40 <int-e> Presumably it means that they introduce their algorithm in detail in said paper.
14:28:12 <fizzie> "The implementation of our algorithm is described detailedly in Section 2."
14:28:20 <fizzie> (From the introduction of the paper.)
14:28:34 <fizzie> It doesn't have quite the same effect without the "firstly".
14:28:52 * boily detailedly disappear to make some coffee. “My brain hurts.”
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14:30:02 <fizzie> I'm also not entirely sure this part has the right word choice: "-- the change would be diffused to the digest (keystream block) evenly by the core hash function, which means however small the change is, the keystream blocks will be totally different and irrelevant."
14:31:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SNUSP]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42815&oldid=42814 * IanO * (+0) /* Square root */ typo
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14:58:15 <HackEgo> [U+FFFD REPLACEMENT CHARACTER]
15:00:45 <Melvar> ( \foo : String => interpolate "Hello, ${foo}!"
15:00:45 <idris-bot> \foo => prim__concat "Hello, " (prim__concat foo "!") : String -> String
15:02:46 <Phantom_Hoover> https://twitter.com/DavidLivey/status/596629805417811968
15:03:02 <Phantom_Hoover> important lesson about coding for edge-cases your election graphics there
15:05:30 <oerjan> ( let s = "Hello, ${foo}!" in \foo : String => interpolate s
15:05:30 <idris-bot> \foo => prim__concat "Hello, " (prim__concat foo "!") : String -> String
15:06:38 <oerjan> ( let s = "Hello, ${foo}!"; f t (foo : String) => interpolate t in f s
15:06:38 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
15:06:38 <idris-bot> let s = "Hello, ${foo}!"; f t (foo : String) => interpolate t in f s<EOF>
15:06:57 <oerjan> ( let s = "Hello, ${foo}!"; f t (foo : String) = interpolate t in f s
15:06:58 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
15:06:58 <idris-bot> let s = "Hello, ${foo}!"; f t (foo : String) = interpolate t in f s<EOF>
15:07:37 <Melvar> let isn’t letrec and indeed can only take one equation.
15:10:19 <Melvar> ( :let f : String -> String -> String; f t foo = interpolate t
15:10:29 -!- idris-bot has quit (Quit: Terminated).
15:13:31 <Melvar> I think it should have complained about a stuck term in a reflected elaborator script.
15:16:37 -!- idris-bot has joined.
15:16:40 <Melvar> Weird, it just eats memory.
15:17:03 <oerjan> dependently typed language: a language which shuffles all termination problems into the type system.
15:18:26 <Melvar> Well, this isn’t about the types really, it’s about the elaborator.
15:19:15 <oerjan> elaborator: a subsystem of a dependently typed language that tries to remove blame from the type system
15:20:38 <Melvar> It’s the thing that turns Idris into TT, which involves expanding all the sugar, qualifying all the names, and inserting all the implicit arguments.
15:25:03 <Melvar> Here we have an implicit argument to interpolate that has a default value which invokes an elaborator script, a program written in idris that runs in the Elab monad, that recieves a reflected version of the environment and produces a reflected version of the desired term.
15:26:42 <Melvar> Here’s the code: http://lpaste.net/132218 and the first more-than-half of that is noodling about with the parsing library.
15:29:29 <oren> Is a tagged union an example of a dependent type?
15:30:19 <Melvar> Depends on what you mean maybe? Haskell has Either just fine non-dependently.
15:31:17 <Melvar> But if you say, have a type of tags, and a function that assigns the tags types, and put that in a dependent pair, …
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15:36:06 <oren> Hmm... Based on reading idris's website, this seems to mean that type checking can depend on arbitrary computations
15:37:08 <Melvar> arbitrary known-terminating computations.
15:37:56 <Melvar> Expressions with things that aren’t known to be total just fail to reduce in types.
15:41:20 <Melvar> (The termination checker is rather conservative, it requires that recursive calls be made on a subterm of the input.)
15:43:19 <Melvar> For example, in the paste I posted, the merge function at the top takes a Vect because it doesn’t fulfill that requirement if it takes a List.
15:48:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42816&oldid=42706 * Esowiki201529A * (-831) Replaced content with " ''$''{fuck:[>]}·test"
15:48:46 <boily> replaced content with fuck?
15:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42817&oldid=42816 * Esowiki201529A * (+30)
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15:49:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42818&oldid=42817 * Esowiki201529A * (-1)
15:50:24 <boily> what the fungot is going on...
15:50:24 <fungot> boily: then by all means! i want my source code, then
15:51:10 <boily> fungot: even the source doesn't help hth
15:51:10 <fungot> boily: call another program from this perspective, you'll find a slightly more optimal format.) emacs uses a stack ( ring, rather)
15:51:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42819&oldid=42818 * Esowiki201529A * (-12)
15:55:53 <oerjan> boily: i'm not sure Esowiki201529A quite understands talk pages. although e's the only contributor to that one.
15:59:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42820&oldid=42716 * Esowiki201529A * (+44) /* Disruptive edits */
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16:00:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42821&oldid=42820 * Esowiki201529A * (+55) /* Quiney */
16:01:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42822&oldid=42821 * Esowiki201529A * (+47) /* Quiney */
16:02:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42823&oldid=42822 * Esowiki201529A * (+56) /* Quiney */
16:03:00 <oren> I don't think I understand talk pages anymore
16:04:35 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: Later).
16:04:36 <oren> "the title is incorrect due to technicallimitations. the correct titleis talk page"
16:05:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42824&oldid=42823 * Esowiki201529A * (+174) /* Quiney */
16:07:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42825&oldid=42824 * Esowiki201529A * (+120) /* Quiney */
16:08:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Esowiki201529A]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42826&oldid=42825 * Esowiki201529A * (-1) /* Quiney */
16:10:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Orenwatson]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42827&oldid=41324 * Orenwatson * (+22)
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17:11:35 <oren> Gah. I hate this trend of using special fonts to put logos and pretty-ass buttons on web pages
17:12:16 <boily> I like it for pretty-ass buttons. small semantic icons are helpful hth
17:12:47 <shachaf> boily: seems like your attitude is more like kth hth
17:13:44 <oren> They should use the unicode emojis
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17:14:06 <b_jonas> oren: yeah. I don't load the fonts, and I hate icons (even when they're picture-based) in first place.
17:14:20 <b_jonas> I can never figure out what the icons mean. They should just use text.
17:14:31 <boily> shachaf: shellochaf. what's a kth twh
17:14:36 <b_jonas> On saner websites, there's at least title text explaining what they mean.
17:14:51 <boily> oren: no. unicodemojis are... they disturb my feng shui.
17:15:35 <b_jonas> It will get worse when colored font support will get commonly implemented in browsers by the way.
17:15:45 <boily> b_jonas: the icon-text combo is the best imo. small visual cues to guide your eyes to common operations, with text for stuff you can't remember.
17:16:23 <boily> coloured font support is a thing? (well, it existed a long time ago with bitmap tiles, but with current technology?)
17:16:44 <boily> shachaf: they do, even when they get excised. ice creaaaaaaam!
17:16:53 <b_jonas> for me, text only would be enough. it can be two pieces of text, a short one as a label and a longer title text for explanation. But I know icons help some other people, so if they want them, sure.
17:17:02 <oren> Like they don't even use the standard code point for icons that are standard like floppy disk and gear
17:17:06 <b_jonas> boily: not really current tech yet, but some people are working on it
17:17:42 <b_jonas> boily: apparently people want it for colored smiling face emojis or something
17:17:43 <HackEgo> U+1F4BE FLOPPY DISK \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 be UTF-16BE: d83ddcbe Decimal: 💾 \ 💾 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
17:18:54 <HackEgo> U+23F8 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: e2 8f b8 UTF-16BE: 23f8 Decimal: ⏸ \ ⏸ (⏸) \ Uppercase: U+23F8 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
17:19:08 <shachaf> They have so many code points and they can't find room within their cold dark hea^H^H^Hplanes for play/pause/fast forward/rewind?
17:19:12 <HackEgo> U+23F8 - No such unicode character name in database \ UTF-8: e2 8f b8 UTF-16BE: 23f8 Decimal: ⏸ \ ⏸ (⏸) \ Uppercase: U+23F8 \ Category: Cn (Other, Not Assigned)
17:19:48 <Melvar> Anyway, that’s DOUBLE VERTICAL BAR with an alias “pause”.
17:20:18 <oren> If they used the standard code points, it would at least whow up semi-properly, and you could even have fonts that diplay them as SAVE, SETTINGS, PAUSE etc
17:20:28 <Melvar> The next two are BLACK SQUARE FOR STOP and BLACK CIRCLE FOR RECORD.
17:20:28 <b_jonas> boily: I'm not specifically against colored font support, firstly because it could be useful for decorative header fonts, secondly because if people get it working, then maybe they'll also improve the rendering and font-making tools for grayscale bitmap (not vector) fonts.
17:21:21 <HackEgo> U+23CF EJECT SYMBOL \ UTF-8: e2 8f 8f UTF-16BE: 23cf Decimal: ⏏ \ ⏏ \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
17:21:26 <b_jonas> I don't like colored smiley face nonsense, especially when it's used with auto-replace like, you know, Data:☺umper
17:22:44 <oren> Well yeah that tends to cause problems when discussing code on facebook
17:23:58 <b_jonas> Mibbit and Skype are two particular offenders. It's possible to turn it off in both, though the option is well-hidden, and the other party has to do it as well.
17:24:04 <shachaf> don't discuss code on facebook hth
17:24:28 <Melvar> b_jonas: As in, it turns if *either* side has it turned on?
17:24:29 <b_jonas> There are also some web forums doing autoreplacements, though some of them only use longer replace codes, not short ones like :) or :P
17:25:05 <b_jonas> Melvar: no, I think the message goes through as you type, and how it shows up in your window is determined by your setting, no matter who sent the message.
17:25:14 <oren> My project group moved to just typing our discussion into a shared google doc for that reason
17:25:19 <b_jonas> but I'm not quite sure about this
17:25:25 <b_jonas> test if you really have to know
17:25:40 <Melvar> b_jonas: Then what do you mean by “the other party has to do it as well”?
17:26:13 <oren> assuming you are both typing code samples
17:26:13 <b_jonas> Melvar: as in, if I send a message saying "you should use the Data::Dumper module" and the other party doesn't set the option, then he will see a smiley face
17:26:31 <b_jonas> no, even if only one of you is typing
17:26:35 <b_jonas> because you see your own messages too
17:26:56 <b_jonas> I think mibbit (the web irc client) used to work similarly before it got banned from freenode completely
17:27:29 <b_jonas> I think qwebirc and kiwi irc don't do such autoreplacements, but I'm not so sure
17:27:45 <oren> shared google doc works surprisdingly well as a chat client
17:28:16 <Melvar> It seems at least two clients so far misparse mirc color codes such that my bot’s output looks wrong.
17:29:00 <b_jonas> I wonder if I should get some selected colleagues to use it rather than skype
17:29:41 <b_jonas> Though it might be difficult because they already run skype for voice chat and/or video chat
17:30:22 <oren> voice chat is terrible if you have an open plan office
17:30:33 <zzo38> I also prefer using IRC too, with just text chat
17:30:44 <zzo38> For voice you just use the telephone
17:30:59 <b_jonas> zzo38: we use telephone a lot too, sure
17:31:17 <oren> at my old job we only used gmail IM thingy
17:31:19 <b_jonas> we even have some company phones with a plan such that they can call each other for free
17:32:07 <b_jonas> one problem with that is that the phone hw generally used for them is REALLY bad, unusable even compared to cheap smartphones in general
17:32:21 <b_jonas> I've temporarily put the sim card in my phone at least once because of this
17:33:29 <b_jonas> like, they're smartphones with so bad a touchscreen it ignores most touches, so I can't terminate calls or initiate them, and I can't easily figure out how to use them with a headphone because none of the two possible interfaces seem to work with them
17:33:48 <b_jonas> and at least one sometimes ignores incoming calls
17:34:12 <fizzie> Google Hangouts for everyone.
17:34:28 <fizzie> I'm not contractually obligated to say that. As far as you know.
17:34:41 <zzo38> No I mean use a landline telephone
17:35:14 <b_jonas> so temporarily moving the sim card is definitely worth the hassle, but that's hard if someone passes me the phone with someone already on the line and the speaker is set to so silent I can barely hear them, and I can't put in a headphone nor increase the volume
17:35:41 <b_jonas> the phones are so bad that using skype voice call instead can be worth, which is saying something
17:36:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: we have very few landline phones in the company. possibly none. they're going out of fashion rapidly everywhere.
17:37:02 <b_jonas> no surprise of course, because the mobile phones are better in almost everything.
17:37:46 <b_jonas> I wonder if eventually public phone boots will use mobile phone technology as well
17:38:10 <zzo38> I think the landlines are better though
17:38:38 <oren> Landlines have the advantage of reliability
17:38:41 <b_jonas> mind you, landline phones _will_ be supported for long still, basically because they can get them as a free extra to houses where they take the internet
17:39:01 <b_jonas> so they can install even new lines because of internet and cable tv
17:39:31 <b_jonas> oren: that's the traditional wisdom, but it won't be true for long as landline gets less popular and less maintained by the companies
17:39:51 <oren> Landline phones in particular work during a blackout
17:40:16 <oren> While the internet doesn't, typically.
17:40:18 <b_jonas> oren: already here in our house they're installing landline phones that go through ip, with a box outside the house that converts between landline in the house and internet outside, so they'll be only as reliable as the internet connection
17:40:28 <zzo38> Yes, those are some advantages
17:40:35 <zzo38> Also landlines use a simple protocol
17:40:45 <oren> b_jonas: that'snot a ral landline then
17:41:01 <b_jonas> so, it won't work when the internet is broken (though perhaps sometimes they'll have the internet only partly broken so the landline will still work)
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17:41:40 <b_jonas> oren: sort of. the interface towards us will be unchanged, it will behave as a landline, except for slightly cheaper price
17:41:49 <b_jonas> but it won't be as reliable as landline indeed
17:42:03 <b_jonas> it might still be a bit more reliable than both the internet and power
17:43:12 <b_jonas> also, it's a brilliant invention from the provider's side: if the internet is down, you can't complain to their customer service on telephone because the telephone is down too
17:43:27 <b_jonas> that alone will save them a ton of money
17:43:43 <b_jonas> really, customer service costs a lot
17:43:52 <b_jonas> of course, people might still complain on mobile phone or from other places
17:44:07 <Melvar> oren: In that case, wide swathes of country don’t have real landlines available anymore.
17:44:18 <Melvar> The providers don’t offer it.
17:44:42 <Melvar> Only IP-based telephony.
17:45:35 <b_jonas> also, calling the customer service is free only if you call from telephone with the same provider, so if you call from mobile, you have to pay for at least the call. that still doesn't cover most of their costs of handling the call, but it will discourage people so they'll call less.
17:45:51 <b_jonas> the more I think about it, the more brilliant it is
17:45:54 <Melvar> Mind you it still goes through a separate channel from your usual internet generally, but it isn’t analog anymore and thus won’t work on minimal power which comes from batteries in the nearest terminator.
17:46:31 <b_jonas> if they're really smart, they'll also make sure the short number of the customer service (4 digit long, which they advertise the most) only works from the same provider, and few people will know the normal length phone number (which you can call from abroad too)
17:47:20 <oren> Hmm? I only have a long number for our customer support
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17:48:25 <b_jonas> oren: we have short numbers. sometimes multiple (eg. one for pre-paid mobile, one for post-paid mobile, one for business customers), and if you call the wrong number, they just send you to the other number, and sometimes they send you in circles
17:49:22 <b_jonas> heck, so many things get short numbers here (all starting by 1 now) that there are short numbers of length 3, 4, 5, and 6. the 6 digit long ones are hard to call short numbers, though those are rare.
17:50:01 <oren> I remember when numbers wer usually 7 digits
17:50:20 <oren> Now you have to dial 10
17:50:53 <b_jonas> the emergency services and a few other stuff get 3 digit numbers, telephone and internet provider service lines and stuff like that get 4 digit numbers, charity donation numbers are 4 or 5 digit long,
17:51:42 <b_jonas> commercial services that are publically useful, like car trailing service, get 4 digit long if they pay a lot, or longer if they dont; commercial services that aren't viewed as publically useful, like voting for tv reality shows, can get 5 or 6 digit long numbers if they pay a lot.
17:52:18 <oren> huh. In canada AFAIK, we only have 3 digit and 10 digit numbers
17:52:53 <b_jonas> the problem is that they keep changing the short numbers so often you can't follow them, because they're valuable assets and in number space shared by multiple providers,
17:53:26 <b_jonas> and it's very difficult to find out about them, because there doesn't seem to be any central directory listing them all, you only find out about them in advertisments of particular services.
17:53:48 <Melvar> Here the ordinary numbers are six digits. Or were, I think all the new ones are seven but the six-digit ones are still around.
17:54:46 <b_jonas> even the emergency service numbers have changed twice in my lifetime: they used to be 04, 05, 07, later those got deprecated and changed to 104, 105, 107, now those are deprecated too and they recommend using only 112, though I _hope_ the deprecated numbers are still available for very long in that case.
17:54:55 <b_jonas> other short numbers change much more often.
17:55:17 <Melvar> Here they’ve been 110 and 112 forever.
17:56:39 <b_jonas> here, ordinary numbers for mobile phones are 2+7 digits (used to be 2+7 before), landlines for budapest are 1+7 digits (used to be 1+6 before), other landlines and special area codes (like toll-free and premium) are 2+6 long.
17:57:35 <b_jonas> oh, and _all_ old numbers in budapest were changed twice: once when they were changed from 1+6 digit to 1+7 digit by adding a prefix 1, and once when all the numbers starting with 1 were obliterated so they're used for short numbers only.
17:57:47 <oren> In toronto the special numbers I know are 911 (emergency) 311 (city services) 411 (phone directory service)
17:58:29 <b_jonas> (previously short numbers used to start with 0, then with 0 and 9, then with 0 and 9 and 1, then later with only 1)
17:58:35 <Melvar> Huh. Here the six-digit local numbers have stuck around even though they’re handing out seven-digits ones now.
17:58:38 <b_jonas> (mobile phone numbers were changed only once, by prefixing a 9)
17:59:06 <b_jonas> Melvar: you can't do that in Budapest, which is a _really_ large city
17:59:12 <Melvar> And indeed, it depends on the area code; smaller areas have shorter local numbers (but usually a longer area code).
18:00:11 <b_jonas> This system works only because Budapest is big and all other towns are small.
18:00:19 <Melvar> Not sure what the city size has to do with it.
18:00:36 <b_jonas> well if you want a single area code for Budapest, you need 7 digit numbers
18:01:03 <b_jonas> there are only 800000 available 6-digit numbers, which is way too few
18:01:17 <Melvar> Oh, you probably mean the six-digit ones could clash with seven-digit ones?
18:01:36 <b_jonas> but every other town is small, so the other approx. 40 landline area codes can easily be assigned such that 6 digit is enough
18:01:45 <b_jonas> because there's no terminator in landlines
18:01:54 <Melvar> I never realized this.
18:02:15 <b_jonas> that's also why you can't have landline numbers starting with 0 or 1
18:02:17 <oren> almost 7 million people live in toronto, so there are multiple area codes (3 digit prefixes) which contain each 10000000 7 digit numbers
18:02:21 <Melvar> I thought they started connecting once one paused for sufficiently long.
18:03:11 <b_jonas> Melvar: I think they did that temporarily for a very short time at the incompatible numbering plan change for Budapest
18:03:15 <Melvar> Nowadays, they start when one pushes the green button.
18:03:27 <b_jonas> landline phones still don't
18:03:29 <fizzie> Finland had something before the EU-wide 112. I think it might've been 999.
18:03:50 <b_jonas> landline phones dial with either pulse or dtmf tone mode, neither of which has a terminator
18:04:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: I think Austria has or had 122, 133, 144 but I'm not sure
18:04:45 <fizzie> Wikipedia "List of emergency telephone numbers" to the rescue.
18:04:56 <b_jonas> 112 has been working for very long here, definitely before mobile phones got popular
18:05:20 <b_jonas> only they weren't convinced it's worth to use a unified emergency number instead of three separate ones, so they kept the separate ones
18:05:24 <b_jonas> (I'm not convinced either)
18:05:59 <fizzie> We had "10022" for the police, but that got merged into 112.
18:06:19 <b_jonas> it's easy to merge _one_ emergency service
18:06:25 <fizzie> Oh, it was 000 and not 999 before 112. And the changeover was in 1993 in Finland.
18:06:25 <b_jonas> merging all three is the hard part
18:06:40 <b_jonas> 000? that takes like ages to dial with pulse
18:06:58 <b_jonas> (not that 07 was much better)
18:07:31 <b_jonas> but a unified number certainly has some advantages
18:07:40 <b_jonas> when there's an emergency, I don't want to have to think of which number to dial
18:07:49 <b_jonas> always dialling 112 is the easiest
18:08:23 <fizzie> Some of the numbers in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emergency_telephone_numbers are pretty specific.
18:08:31 <fizzie> Like the 114 for racial discrimination in Morocco.
18:09:54 <fizzie> Or the alleged 113 for "reporting spies" in (South) Korea. Although these generally don't have any citations.
18:10:09 <b_jonas> and unification everywhere in Europe is definitely useful ever since so many people have mobile phones and so many people can travel easily
18:10:47 <b_jonas> fizzie: no citations is because they're not listed properly anywhere
18:10:54 <b_jonas> not even on the homepage of providers anymore
18:11:13 <b_jonas> and printed phonebooks get less and less accessible, these days even post offices usually don't have them
18:11:50 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if they even print phonebooks these days (they still print smaller yellow-pages like business directories, and thin booklets for local services in a district)
18:12:32 <b_jonas> The terms and conditions list _some_ short numbers because it has to give their pricing, but it doesn't tell what each of them means, and is hard to use
18:12:51 <b_jonas> why can't they just have it as an appendix to online phonebooks like it used to appear in printed phonebooks (which also didn't list all short numbers btw)
18:13:28 <fizzie> The map in the phone book (for the Helsinki metropolitan region) used to be something people cut off from last year's version and use as a general map.
18:13:49 <fizzie> It was maybe 50 pages or so, with a street name -> page-and-grid-reference mapping.
18:14:35 <fizzie> I think they stopped distributing the printed copy to every household at some point.
18:14:49 <fizzie> It used to be this three-volume 15 cm stack.
18:15:04 <fizzie> (#1 for people, #2 for companies and #3 for the yellow pages.)
18:15:25 <b_jonas> I don't think we've ever had three-volume. We've had two-volume and one-volume versions for Budapest, and thinner one volume versions for each megye.
18:16:03 <b_jonas> though if you count yellow pages separately then maybe
18:17:04 <fizzie> Apparently these days you can pick up a copy from many post offices, during a one-month window, but they don't home-deliver.
18:17:11 <fizzie> It's gotten a lot thinner, though.
18:18:06 <b_jonas> that used to exist for a day. I don't know if it still exists
18:18:11 <b_jonas> also, there used to be a CD version for a while.
18:18:53 <b_jonas> there's definitely still an internet-based directory, but it's very hard to use and often broken, just like everything on the telephone provider's website
18:19:12 <b_jonas> and there's of course the directory accessible through voice calls which has slightly different content
18:20:17 <fizzie> The main Finnish one is quite okay. There's the website lookup, and the usual set of mobile apps.
18:20:54 <fizzie> The "digital" versions used to cost extra, but now it's gone down to a 0.25 EUR SMS to open an account, and no other costs.
18:21:00 <b_jonas> there might be mobile apps, I wouldn't know about it
18:21:18 <b_jonas> there's probably an SMS version, yes, I wouldn't know about that either
18:23:36 <b_jonas> fungot, do you use landline phone?
18:23:36 <fungot> b_jonas: true elegance... who is to measure recursion! :(
18:25:45 <fizzie> Thanks to the way DSL things are generally set up here, we technically have a phone-enabled landline fungot could tap into, although nothing's connected to it.
18:25:46 <fungot> fizzie: parsing of left and right sides are identified, so if i work on have browser interfaces oriented towards ie. so the important questions don't entirely respect the characterizations. my favorite ever was possibly pingpong, but i
18:26:11 <fizzie> Maybe I could hook up a modem and use the ring signal as a side channel for something.
18:26:45 <b_jonas> fizzie: why would that be useful? there's lots of other internet-based side channels you could use
18:27:01 <fizzie> If the Internet is down.
18:27:47 <b_jonas> so if you ring it, it dials a landline modem internet connection as backup, and uses expensive internet with 56 kilobit/sec speed there?
18:28:22 <fizzie> We had a free dialup at the university campus -- an elegant system, for a more civilized age.
18:28:30 <fizzie> Nobody used it, but it hadn't gotten dismantled.
18:28:45 <b_jonas> actually these days the telephone provider provides a free dialup for landlines
18:29:08 <b_jonas> it costs less than a normal voice phones, and is probably still cheap for the provider to run
18:29:16 <fizzie> Does the call still cost something? This was entirely free. (The local data, TV and phone networks were all built by the students.)
18:29:31 <b_jonas> (or at least, this had existed about two years ago)
18:29:37 <b_jonas> fizzie: yes, the call costs something
18:30:02 <b_jonas> but less than a normal local voice call from the same landline would likely cost, unless you have a plan with unlimited local calls
18:30:17 <fizzie> You could call the "internal" (campus and university) numbers for free there.
18:30:31 <fizzie> And the university provided a for-students dialup that was included.
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18:30:32 <b_jonas> oh sure, if you're within the university it can be free
18:30:42 <fizzie> I think I routed our home interwebs over it once, when the Ethernet side was down for some hours.
18:30:45 <b_jonas> but this works from all landlines
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18:34:55 <fizzie> The Helsinki telephone company used to have this pessimized-for-dialup-users pricing, where -- for 5pm-to-8am on weekdays, and all day on weekends -- there was a fixed (small) per-call cost for any call up to 30 minutes, and then the per-minute charges started ticking. Those evening-and-weekend times used to have just the per-call cost, before they realized they started getting dialup users ...
18:35:01 <fizzie> ... doing one "call" per day and still using up their capacity.
18:35:26 <fizzie> You had to hang up and redial every half an hour or so for the cheapest stay-online experience.
18:35:56 <fizzie> (If you did it right, and had a static IP, you didn't even lose active TCP connections, so no dropping from IRC.)
18:37:51 <boily> sudo aplay /dev/mem.
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18:53:46 <b_jonas> Question about Moore's law stuff. For how many years have most CPUs been having a constant 32 kilobytes of 4-way associative L1 cache? Should we expect this to continue?
18:54:24 <b_jonas> I understand why the clock speed can't be increase further above 2 or 4 gigahertze, but I don't know enough about microelectronics and cpu design about how expensive it would be to grow the L1 cache.
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18:57:08 <b_jonas> (L1 data cache to be precise)
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19:17:56 <oren> Horrible idea i just had. Some people put comments in code like
19:18:19 <oren> x = y + 4; //set x to y plus 4
19:18:32 <b_jonas> oren: yes, that's especially common in assembler code
19:18:33 <oren> Cn be generate such comments automatically?
19:18:46 <b_jonas> oren: people generate _api documentation stuff_ automatically too
19:19:45 <b_jonas> like, they write a function named void SetLength(int v) in the class Foo and automatically generate api documentation saying “Sets the length of the foo to the integer given in the parameter.” and even more fancy stuff deduced from code.
19:21:28 <b_jonas> like, they automatically add meaningless six line long comments in the code saying /*! \brief Default constructor. Creates a Foo object. */ Foo();
19:21:39 <b_jonas> because of some stupid conding standard that asks them to document every function or some such shit
19:21:53 <b_jonas> api documentation can be useful, but this kind of api docs is worse than nothing.
19:22:13 <notfowl> Pretty annoying when youre typing extra shit that just goes to doc formatting
19:23:23 <b_jonas> those comments should document only what's not immediately obvious to anyone reading the function name and type
19:25:40 <fizzie> There's an "english" command in candide, the ##c bot.
19:26:07 <fizzie> 20:26 <fizzie> ,english x = y + 4;
19:26:07 <fizzie> 20:26 <candide> fizzie: Assign to `x` the result of the expression `y` plus 4.
19:26:10 <fizzie> 20:26 <fizzie> ,english if (x()) y();
19:26:13 <fizzie> 20:26 <candide> fizzie: If the result of the function `x` is nonzero then call the function `y`.
19:26:16 <fizzie> You could just run that on each statement, and add it as a comment.
19:27:09 <b_jonas> ,english x = a*(b+c)*d; y = a*b+c*d;
19:27:29 <fizzie> Assign to `x` the result of the expression `a` times (`b` plus `c`) times `d` and then assign to `y` the result of the expression `a` times `b` plus `c` times `d`.
19:28:03 <fizzie> It recognizes some rather obscure special cases, but I don't remember what they are.
19:28:04 <b_jonas> yes, that's what it said in privmsg
19:29:00 <fizzie> void bar(char foo[static 41]) {} => "Let `bar` be a function taking `foo` as an array with optimization hint to provide access to the first element of 41 elements of char and returning void. When called, the function will do nothing."
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19:30:26 <b_jonas> notfowl: you can private message candide
19:30:55 <fizzie> It also special-recognizes the "!! operator".
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19:31:06 <fizzie> 20:31 <fizzie> ,english !!x
19:31:06 <fizzie> 20:31 <candide> fizzie: The normalized boolean value of `x`.
19:31:54 <oren> on a related note, My mostrecent version of scrip7 generates the documentation for commands by sedding the comments and the case : values
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19:41:12 <oren> because the sed commands are specific to the particular code, the code can simply look like this: http://ctrlv.in/572297
19:42:24 <oren> and the docs can look like: http://ctrlv.in/572298
19:42:57 <oren> ooh sequential urls
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19:56:11 <oren> So iow, you can see what peoplearound the globe are doing by entring in numbers near the current one
20:14:32 <oren> also http://ctrlv.in/1
20:29:29 <fizzie> Apparently the answer is "mostly watching porn or playing minecraft". (Based of a N=8 sample.)
20:31:36 <Sgeo> oren, please parameterize queries
20:32:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, those values don't look particularly untrusted. Still a good habit to get into
20:34:27 <oren> which queries?
20:47:52 <Phantom_Hoover> fizzie, i'm seeing a lot of photos of an indian woman for some reason
20:48:23 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose that's about what you'd expect for a random sample from across the globe
21:01:38 <oren> Among people who searched upload image in english especially
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21:36:36 <Sgeo> I O it's magic, you know
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23:52:20 <FireFly> Interesting, those ctrlv.in images have OCR'd text as alt text
23:52:34 <FireFly> so you could (ab)use it as an OCR service?
23:53:19 <orin> but it takes some time to show up, it's not there right away
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00:11:06 <Phantom_Hoover> jesus christ i can't even into first isomorphism theorem
00:15:25 <orin> gramer is teh suxxors
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00:22:05 * oerjan vaguely recalls some rule...
00:23:15 <Phantom_Hoover> p. obvious when you actually think about it but i've just been frantically copying theorems to force myself to read them
00:26:33 <orin> Tomorrow is my birthday!
00:26:57 <orin> I forgot and no-one said anything
00:27:09 <Phantom_Hoover> what's confused and continues to trouble me is that i thought the prime ideals of Z[x,y] were all of the form (x-a,y-b) and i now have no idea what their significance actually is
00:28:02 <oerjan> perhaps if you replace Z by a field
00:36:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42828&oldid=42819 * Esowiki201529A * (-42) Blanked the page
00:57:13 <FreeFull> orin: That could have been "Yesterday was my birthday!"
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03:42:03 <Decim> @bf ++++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++<<<-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>>-----.--.++++++++++.------.
03:42:22 <Decim> Finally I have made lambdabot say cake
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04:01:32 <zzo38> The iron in two cards would have different position/momentum/configuration/etc so if you just switched all iron from one car with another instantaneously somehow, I think it would be explosive? Even if not, aren't the fermions anticommutative, and can the state have different quantum entanglement?
04:26:28 <zzo38> I think ICAO codes are much better than IATA codes isn't it? They should change all of their systems into ICAO codes
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05:34:14 <zzo38> This is messy http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stapler
05:44:16 <zzo38> Is some other people on today too?
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07:55:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Orenwatson]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42829&oldid=42124 * 123.113.125.251 * (+0)
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09:49:20 <fungot> mroman: it's used in one of the last
09:54:23 <olsner> one of the last what, fungot?
09:54:24 <fungot> olsner: i don't think it's a bad title initself, could be easily ported, though :) i'd like a fnord
09:56:29 <mroman> we'd all like a fnord.
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10:52:22 <HackEgo> /hackenv/bin:/opt/python27/bin:/opt/ghc/bin:/usr/bin:/bin
10:53:01 <izabera> `` echo echo code injection > /bin/0; chmod +x /bin/0; echo x | mapfile -c1 -C ''
10:53:09 <HackEgo> bash: /bin/0: Read-only file system \ chmod: cannot access `/bin/0': No such file or directory \ bash: line 1: 0: command not found
10:53:26 <izabera> `` echo echo code injection > 0; chmod +x 0; PATH=.; echo x | mapfile -c1 -C ''
10:59:36 <int-e> `` echo x | mapfile -c1 -C echo
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11:04:08 <mroman> fungot: What would you do with a fnord?
11:04:08 <fungot> mroman: don't assume stupidity, do like me and can't be bothered tracking back to find fnord
11:05:03 <int-e> admonished by fungot.
11:05:03 <fungot> int-e: filter bj ( class bjblaz)... view bj....! does it return f
11:05:20 <int-e> fungot: no it does not
11:05:20 <fungot> int-e: you have to access locals, and there arrives an infinite number of ways to emulate functions ( but not their values) and defines its methods.
11:29:25 <mroman> parasites that infect snails, control their brain to make them crawl to open spaces so they can be eaten by birds
11:29:41 <mroman> which is the goal of those parasites so they can infect the bird
11:29:57 <mroman> fungot: are you a cordycep?
11:29:57 <fungot> mroman: sigh. so if you collect everything into a string? for example,
11:30:20 <mroman> fungot is a fungi that infects IRC users and takes over their minds.
11:30:21 <fungot> mroman: if working by hand, just returns the constant. besides, those take awfully long time to start solving this problem
11:30:31 <olsner> parasites that control behavior are awesome
11:31:04 <mroman> from an evolutionary standpoint yes
11:31:10 <mroman> they essentially hack other species
11:31:58 <mroman> I'm pretty certain there are parasites than can do that to humans
11:32:07 <mroman> but probably not so sophisticated as for insects
11:34:05 <mroman> which causes hydrophobie
11:34:37 <mroman> which means it affects behaviours of humans
11:34:58 <mroman> but that's a virus, not a parasite
11:35:04 <olsner> my impression is that we overestimate how complicated these behaviors are, and how hard it is to modify them
11:36:25 <olsner> apparently rabies causes excessive salivation and pain on swallowing, and that causes the hydrophobia
11:36:26 <b_jonas> duh. most parasite can modify your behavior. some fungus infections cause you to itch and scratch, so you spread them further on your skin.
11:37:09 <b_jonas> some other infections cause you to have high fever and take days off work and stay home in bed.
11:38:35 <mroman> toxoplasma gondii apparentely alters rats brains
11:39:02 <mroman> or some chemistry in it
11:39:39 <mroman> and there's some correlation between toxo and schizophrenia
11:39:50 <mroman> but that's just a correlation as of current research
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11:45:27 <mroman> "For example, previous estimates have shown the highest prevalence of persons infected with T. gondii to be in France, at 84%"
11:45:35 <mroman> that certainly seems to get creepy
11:47:22 <mroman> "We found that among all patients the additional diagnosis of a personality disorder was significantly associated with TG infection."
11:50:20 <mroman> "In particular, T. gondii seroprevalence has been associated with suicide."
11:52:42 <mroman> and they seem to infect amygdalas more than other brain regions
11:52:54 <mroman> that makes sense since a lot of personality disorders are linked to amygdala abnormalities
11:54:53 <b_jonas> mroman: sure, but you also have to consider that a lot of those research is nonsense. they're invented deliberatey by people who want to prove that certain people are wrong and have a behaviour disorder that have to be cured.
11:55:44 <mroman> Personality disorders are very subjective yes.
11:55:54 <b_jonas> because, like, it's easier to convince a parent that they should give medicine to their child for their alleged behaviour disorders if they show laboratory tests with numbers circled on them to show that their child is wrong.
11:55:58 <mroman> but Schizophrenia shouldn't be hard to correctly diagnose
11:56:09 <int-e> I hope you're not practicing light dinner conversation
11:57:13 <mroman> b_jonas: According to recommendations PDs shouldn't be diagnosed pre-adulthood
11:57:18 <b_jonas> int-e: do you know how some people running European countries, and schools in particular, are trying very hard to steal all bad ideas from America and their school system?
11:57:49 <mroman> but that of course doesn't count for other disorders such as BP and BP-subtypes, mood orders in general
11:57:56 <b_jonas> it's not easy, because there's so many differences, but they're trying.
11:57:59 <mroman> schizophrenia, ocd, schizoaffective and the like
11:58:19 <elliott> I believe that schizophrenia is often diagnosed as autism in childhood, since they present similarly before adulthood?
11:58:46 <b_jonas> mroman: the same thing can apply to adults too, where it affects fewer people but probably more dangerous for them
11:58:51 <mroman> elliott: they are overlapping yes
11:58:58 <mroman> but I think autism doesn't have positive symptoms
11:59:18 <mroman> but schizophrenia doesn't neccessarily have to come with positive symptoms
11:59:25 <elliott> right, not in the schizophrenia sense per se. though it is more than just the negative symptoms of schizophrenia, of course
11:59:35 <elliott> but schizophrenia's positive symptoms don't usually show up until adulthood, afaik
11:59:47 <mroman> also manic states can have positive symptoms that resemble schizophrenia
11:59:58 <mroman> and then there's schizoaffective and schizotypal
11:59:59 <b_jonas> um, what does “positive symptom” mean?
12:00:09 <mroman> b_jonas: hallucinations and the like
12:00:17 <b_jonas> I don't know much about psychiatry, luckily
12:00:24 <mroman> things that aren't there
12:00:41 <mroman> positive symptoms is roughly "stuff that is added" and negative symptoms is "stuff that is taken away"
12:00:46 <mroman> that's a negative symptom
12:01:17 <mroman> also there's paranoid schizophrenia, disorganized schizophrenia, schizophrenia simplex
12:01:33 <mroman> It's a big ugly mess with these disorders
12:01:50 <mroman> which is why you can constantly argue that some disorders don't exist or some disorders are actually the same disorder
12:02:36 <mroman> or whether something attributed as a criteria to some disorder is actually another disorder
12:02:42 <orin> the most bullshit disorder is ODD (oppositional defiant disorder) which is just a doctor's long ass way to say your kid is too stubborn
12:03:08 <orin> and won't listen to his teachers
12:03:19 <mroman> you can argue that self-injury behaviour is a separate disorder
12:03:56 <mroman> i.e. the DSM only lists SI as a symptom of BPD where it is already known that other disorders present with SI as well
12:04:06 <elliott> diagnoses are more subjective overlapping clusters of criteria than any true reflection of inherent structures of minds, and a lot of what constitutes a pathologised diagnosis vs. normal variation is very much socially driven.
12:04:30 <b_jonas> elliott: hehe, nice hard to understand sentence. but true.
12:04:30 <elliott> (this should not be interpreted as a rant against claimed over-diagnosis or the use of psychiatric medication.)
12:04:42 <int-e> b_jonas: That's a better topic indeed :D But I'm not in the mood. (I also would have to google which Bertelsmann subsidaries I'm particularly pissed at :P)
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12:05:02 <elliott> b_jonas: *shrugs* it's the words that came out of my head in the order they came out
12:05:22 <elliott> I suppose I type on the pretentious side of things sometimes...
12:05:33 <int-e> And how to spell "subsidiaries".
12:05:45 <mroman> also why's ODD not a PD?
12:06:36 <mroman> ODD sounds very ego-syntonic
12:07:18 <b_jonas> what does "ego-syntonic" mean?
12:07:49 <mroman> it means it is in harmony with your ego/personality
12:07:57 <mroman> meaning: You are not aware you have a PD
12:08:14 <mroman> because your behaviours (that are wrong to others) aren't wrong to yourself
12:08:26 <orin> Well my teachers claimed I had ODD, but that stopped when my parents stopped spoiling me so much
12:08:32 <mroman> OCD for example is ego-dystonic
12:08:49 <mroman> since sufferers are aware of it and that it's "unreasonable"
12:09:01 <mroman> OCPD (which is not the same as OCD) is ego-syntonic
12:09:27 <mroman> mainly because the obsessive/compulsive part of OCPD is part of the personality itself
12:10:00 <b_jonas> ( #esoteric is a strange channel)
12:10:01 <idris-bot> (input):1:1: error: expected: ":",
12:10:01 <idris-bot> #esoteric is a strange channel)<EOF>
12:10:02 <mroman> the thing is that we humans specify what is a disorder and what not ;)
12:10:13 <mroman> and it depends on culture.
12:10:22 <orin> So OCPD is a doctor's long way of saying "too anal"?
12:10:28 <mroman> being afraid of aliens is a disorder
12:10:33 <mroman> being afraid of the devil is not
12:10:37 <mroman> see the difference there?
12:10:46 <elliott> (indeed, largely those who do not meet the diagnostic criteria of more or less any disorder specify what a disorder is.)
12:11:27 <Jafet> The devil has a much chance of existing than aliens, mroman
12:11:27 <mroman> lots of PDs are underdiagnosed
12:11:31 <int-e> mroman: perhaps more to the point, what if the person is an Atheist? Or a scientologist?
12:11:49 <mroman> because given the right circumstances and the right people around a person with a PD the PD might not show up
12:12:10 <orin> related: http://funnyexam.com/answers/54514
12:12:12 <mroman> if you constantly provide narcissistic supply for an NPD he won't have any problems with it.
12:12:58 <mroman> int-e: I think atheism is accepted
12:13:02 <mroman> and not listed as a disorder
12:13:12 <Jafet> (related: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Christs_of_Ypsilanti)
12:13:34 <int-e> mroman: No, I meant, what if the person who's afraid of the devil is an Atheist, or the one being afraid of aliens is a Scientologist?
12:13:35 <mroman> and ego-dystonic homosexuality
12:13:57 <mroman> int-e: ow. That would be weird :)
12:14:06 <mroman> atheists don't believe in god?
12:14:12 <mroman> does that mean they don't believe in the devil as well?
12:14:56 <mroman> HSDD is probably mostly a disorder because people expect you to have sex
12:15:02 <int-e> I'd expect they don't believe in supernatural entities at all, normally.
12:15:16 <mroman> Does the flying spaghetti monster count as supernatural?
12:15:27 <int-e> Anyway, musing, I don't expect an answer.
12:15:29 <orin> er, i guess usually? It doesn't really make sense for the Devil to exist with no god opposing him
12:16:52 <int-e> If you believe in the FSM, you're not an Atheist in my view (wow, I must be an atheist fanatist). If you use it for making a point that believing in the FSM is just as sensible as believing in another God, you still might be.
12:17:10 <mroman> the FSM doesn't have a good history
12:17:17 <mroman> no ancient texts have been found
12:17:29 <mroman> you can trace it back thousands of years!
12:17:35 <mroman> that must make it truer than FSM
12:17:54 <orin> Well some parts are known to be true,
12:17:55 <mroman> no wars have been fought for FSM yet
12:18:00 <b_jonas> mroman: that's a temporary situation. in a thousand more years, the difference will no longer be significant
12:18:06 <int-e> they were written on lasagna plates; turns out stone plates, pergament and paper are more durable ;)
12:18:07 <mroman> so that indicates people believing in the FSM aren't very serious about it
12:18:18 <b_jonas> mroman: well duh, that's because the FSM would really rather you don't fight wars for him
12:18:40 <mroman> I don't take religions without religious wars serious
12:19:12 <orin> Also~, lack of death threats forcing anyone to take it seriously
12:19:30 <b_jonas> orin: same thing. the FSM would rather you not do that.
12:19:40 <int-e> I like the IPU better anyway.
12:19:44 <mroman> who is more "serious" about his religion
12:19:45 * elliott considers the flamebait of positing that many atheists beleve in supernatural entities without admitting it, and decides that sleep and a meta message is the superior option.
12:19:54 <mroman> one who kills other people for it or one who doesn't?
12:20:08 <nvd> mroman, how does HSDD differ from, like, asexuality?
12:20:31 <mroman> nvd: If you are not distressed then it's asexuality
12:20:44 <mroman> meaning "I have no desire for sex and that depresses me" -> HSDD
12:20:54 <mroman> "I have no desire for sex and I'm cool with it" -> asexuality
12:21:14 <nvd> That seems...
12:21:15 <elliott> well, it also had "I am gay and that distresses me" in before it was removed for being homophobic, too.
12:21:15 <int-e> elliott: where do you draw the line? I do curse inanimate objects a lot :P
12:21:30 <mroman> "I'm gay and that distresses me" is ego-dystonic homosexuality
12:21:45 <mroman> according the clinicians.
12:21:54 <elliott> the question, of course, is how much the diagnoses actually corresponded to personal distress of the diagnosed, and also, how much of that distress was internal as opposed to a side-effect of societal homophobia. hence its removal.
12:22:05 <int-e> Ah. http://wiki.lspace.org/mediawiki/Anoia :)
12:22:25 <nvd> What about "I have no desire for sex and the pressure I receive sex makes me feel like I have something wrong with me and that depresses me"
12:22:27 <mroman> nvd: the criteria for HSDD includes "must cause marked distress and interpersonal difficulties"
12:22:33 <elliott> mroman: not in the DSM, at least?
12:22:34 <elliott> "HSDD has garnered much criticism, primarily by asexual activists. They point out that HSDD puts asexuality in the same position homosexuality was from 1974-1987. Back then, the DSM recognised 'ego-dystonic homosexuality' as a disorder, defined as having sexual interest in the same sex and it causing distress. Despite the DSM itself officially recognizing this as unnecessarily pathologizing homosexuality
12:22:40 <elliott> and removing it as a disorder in 1987,[5]"
12:22:47 <mroman> elliott: ICD still has it I think
12:23:02 <mroman> it's also funny ICD vs. DSM
12:23:13 <mroman> having disorders in the DSM not in the ICD and vice-versa
12:23:18 <elliott> well, pathologising the attraction along with the associated distress is not necessarily politically neutral.
12:23:21 <mroman> and having different criterias for disorders.
12:23:49 <mroman> but technically if you're asexual and a clinicians diagnoses you with HSDD you have HSDD
12:23:50 <orin> Once I heard a story where God likes atheist activists, because at least they actively think of Him all the time.
12:24:13 <mroman> for paper matters at least
12:24:34 <elliott> also, the criteria for https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_sexual_arousal_disorder do _not_ include associated personal distress
12:24:51 <elliott> you may reflect on the implications of the gender-specificity of that diagnosis
12:25:02 <mroman> if a female doesn't want sex there must be something wrong
12:25:08 <mroman> no matter if she feels distressed by it or not
12:25:12 <mroman> because the male wants sex
12:25:17 <mroman> and most clinicians are probably male
12:25:19 <b_jonas> orin: I think Smullyan mentions the idea that maybe God likes atheists because they don't believe in things they can't prove
12:25:47 <mroman> that's an arousal disorder
12:25:54 <mroman> asexuality isn't an arousal disorder
12:26:30 <mroman> arousal is a "physical reaction"
12:26:41 <mroman> if you lack a physical reaction you're supposed to have it's a disorder
12:26:45 <nvd> I can tell you from personal experience that they are different
12:27:08 <elliott> mroman: look at the DSM-5 criteria.
12:27:09 <mroman> asexuals don't generally have problems with arousal
12:27:12 <elliott> "Absent/reduced interest in sexual activity"
12:27:12 <orin> Well it was beacuse a lot of people, even people who are nominally religious, never really think about god
12:27:19 <elliott> it's clearly not solely about arousal in that sense
12:27:35 <mroman> oh it includes "interest"
12:27:45 <elliott> and even "Absent/reduced sexual/erotic thoughts or fantasies"
12:27:52 <elliott> in fact I find the DSM-IV criteria *less* objectionable!
12:28:11 <mroman> is there a male arousal disorder?
12:28:21 <mroman> that would probably be called impotence?
12:28:54 <mroman> b_jonas: you know what you were getting yourself into
12:29:10 <elliott> mroman: well, there's erectile dysfunction
12:29:14 <mroman> I have a certain reputation to pick up on these kind of conversations.
12:29:25 <elliott> rather dissimilar criteria from the DSM-5 one I linked, presumably
12:30:16 <b_jonas> and this is with certain channel regulars absent because week-end
12:30:23 <mroman> "The term is often used in the diagnosis of women (female sexual arousal disorder), while the term erectile dysfunction (ED) is often used for men."
12:30:56 <mroman> b_jonas: In other words: Science is fun :p
12:31:06 <mroman> even if it's mostly pseudo-science
12:31:09 <mroman> but it's still science
12:31:32 <mroman> pseudo-science is probably even more fun than the old school regular science
12:31:36 <b_jonas> sometimes it's not fun, but still useful
12:33:10 <mroman> nvd: btw. there are also clinicians who say "asexuality == depressed"
12:33:19 <mroman> because "lack of libido is a hallmark sign of depression"
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12:34:08 <nvd> I am fairly sure I am not depressed
12:34:14 <b_jonas> Oh, on how it's subjective what counts as a disorder, this strip is slightly related: http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1995#comic
12:34:31 <mroman> nvd: I'm fairly sure I am not constantly depressed
12:35:11 <mroman> 1200$ spending sprees isn't really a symptom of depression I guess
12:35:15 <elliott> that comic only makes sense if you actually believe everyone can walk
12:35:25 <elliott> which... god news for you there
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12:36:27 <mroman> unless you have some sort of disease affecting muscels
12:38:17 <mroman> which makes your bones so week they bend
12:38:52 <b_jonas> no, I don't believe everyone can walk. I only believe that most people can walk.
12:39:17 <b_jonas> I know there are many that can't, because of various defects or injuries or accidents
12:40:55 <elliott> and how do you define healthy? :)
12:40:57 <mroman> Mental disorders depend on what is expected and accepted. And there really isn't any other way of running it
12:41:01 <Jafet> The Hark-a-vagrant version of that comic would be "You'd better start walking right now, or that surgeon there is going to diagnose you with polio."
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12:41:08 * elliott decides that's enough wood on the fire, and actually goes to sleep.
12:41:29 <mroman> I should get back into researching T.gondii
12:42:01 <b_jonas> Jafet: not polio. polio is like http://www.xkcd.com/1520/
12:43:04 <mroman> I'm gonna diagnose him with Isaacs Syndrome
12:44:12 <mroman> some nerve hyperexcitability
12:44:37 <mroman> causes cramps, twitching, stiffness etc.
12:46:16 <mroman> looks like an exclusion diagnosis
12:48:55 <mroman> Being lately reading lots of medicine books and articles my respect for doctors is growing
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12:50:14 <mroman> And I wonder if GPs even know about these rare conditions
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13:52:39 <oerjan> <zzo38> I think ICAO codes are much better than IATA codes isn't it? They should change all of their systems into ICAO codes <-- the problem is that ICAO codes are incomprehensible to non-nerds hth
13:53:53 <oerjan> ("ENGM"? wtf is that? "OSL"? oh of course that's oslo)
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14:02:02 <boily> YUL. obviously it's YULontréal.
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14:02:56 <oerjan> ok so northern americans managed to mess up IATA too, no surprise there.
14:03:06 <izabera> i thought i was a nerd but i never heard of icao codes
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14:03:26 <lambdabot> ENVA 101350Z 29013KT 9999 FEW045TCU SCT050 10/M00 Q1017 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 30013KT
14:04:02 <boily> izabera: being a nerd is good. embrace you inner geek. exchange with fungot.
14:04:02 <fungot> boily: maybe next year, as they become necessary in your games
14:04:07 <lambdabot> CYUL 101300Z 22010KT 15SM FEW020 FEW080 SCT110 SCT180 22/17 A3003 RMK CU1ACC1AC3AC1 CU TR ACC TR SLP169 DENSITY ALT 700FT
14:04:22 <lambdabot> Look up METAR weather data for given airport.
14:05:02 <boily> detailed weather information is of utmost importance.
14:05:04 <oerjan> izabera: it's the nerd equivalent of talking about the weather, of course
14:05:14 <oerjan> except we naturally optimize it
14:05:26 <boily> also, it proves it's warmer here than at oerjan's :D
14:06:04 <boily> (and stormy weather here. CU1ACC1AC3AC1 CU TR ACC TR...)
14:06:32 <lambdabot> LIMF 101350Z 02003KT 310V090 CAVOK 25/10 Q1023
14:07:06 <oerjan> the important part is the 25/ hth
14:07:23 <oerjan> that's temperature in celsius
14:07:40 <b_jonas> LIMF is the location, 101350Z is the time of the measurement
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14:09:40 <izabera> what should i google to know more?
14:10:14 <oerjan> /10 is dew point, temperature at which dew forms, says something about dryness
14:10:28 <oerjan> for the rest i defer to boily
14:11:15 <oerjan> izabera: metar, probably
14:11:53 <oerjan> some of the websites explain the codes iirc
14:11:59 <izabera> ok now i know all about it
14:12:19 <oerjan> BUT THE 4% IS ESSENTIAL
14:14:18 <oerjan> the 003KT part, i think
14:14:52 <b_jonas> also which part is the air pressure history?
14:15:19 <oerjan> air pressure is the Q part
14:15:35 <oerjan> see here http://en.allmetsat.com/metar-taf/norway-sweden-finland.php?icao=ENVA
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14:18:13 <oerjan> the "Current weather observation" is a breakup
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14:30:04 <oerjan> <Jafet> The devil has a much chance of existing than aliens, mroman <-- i think someone snipped your comparative, although whether it was the devil or aliens i'm not sure until you tell what it should have been hth
14:31:58 <boily> fungot: do you exist, and if so, are you the Devil or an alien?
14:31:58 <fungot> boily: i started that practice after accidentally typing rm one time too often, so they can release it at the head
14:32:30 <int-e> I swear fungot is getting more coherent every day
14:32:30 <fungot> int-e: so how do i dump and load images? cool. what's the tz diff between roc and jp? i'm guessing you don't have uniform representation can't be totally hidden
14:33:04 <int-e> well, there's still some room for improvement :)
14:33:29 <b_jonas> int-e: I think he's quoting me there
14:33:41 <fungot> izabera: thr r6rs-discuss alias is quiet... too quiet." " fnord" a bit with smalltalk and wanted to go to class with like 2-3 hours of sleep have you had
14:33:53 <lambdabot> CYYZ 101400Z 36008KT 12SM OVC075 19/16 A3010 RMK AC8 SLP191 DENSITY ALT 900FT
14:33:53 <olsner> fungot: do you or the devil have a much chance of existing?
14:33:53 <fungot> olsner: whether the code has nothing to do with what we know now. three done.)
14:33:56 <b_jonas> fungot, do you and Santa Claus both exist?
14:33:56 <fungot> b_jonas: or i could be wrong, but sarahbot is speaking tongue-in-cheek, of course. in my particular case i'm thinking specifically of chicken, so i was a sex-starved manicurist found dead in the bronx!! i want my byte-vectors and string to be a
14:33:57 <oerjan> int-e: no he just wants you to help with his media interaction
14:34:20 <olsner> int-e: it could be that the rest of the world is just getting less coherent
14:34:46 <b_jonas> fungot: is the rest of the world getting less coherent?
14:34:46 <fungot> b_jonas: http://rafb.net/ fnord impromptu play! i'll get right on implementing it. it's built into the interpreter
14:35:06 <int-e> oerjan: the problem is just, I'm pretty sure that fizzie has not retrained any of the language models...
14:35:09 <orin> Well yeah, law of thermodynamics, I forget which one
14:35:30 <b_jonas> int-e: I think the mode that quotes irc continuously uses new sentences
14:35:44 <olsner> orin: the one about fungot and coherence? that'd be the fnordth law
14:35:44 <fungot> olsner: c would basically work on everything tex works now.) what time is it
14:36:03 <b_jonas> y0KXJGaiquc5M8Iqf oCsSgFRCedys9kQsq9gzZA
14:36:09 <fungot> b_jonas: don't think so. if the binary distribution runs from /bin /lib and /include and /bin
14:36:11 <int-e> fizzie: you could solve this mystery, do you have some sort of cron job that updates the IRC model?
14:36:26 <boily> I wonder if fungot will ever become a CHICKEN practicioner.
14:36:26 <fungot> boily: do you suppose ebcdic mappings would be a little bit like scythe... i am
14:36:40 <int-e> b_jonas: I've heard that it's not even context sensitive.
14:36:41 <b_jonas> which model is he using now?
14:36:58 <b_jonas> int-e: maybe I was dreaming?
14:37:04 <int-e> b_jonas: so it's all our brains fooling ourselves (or at least my brain fooling itself)
14:37:32 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
14:37:39 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
14:37:56 <b_jonas> maybe it was some other bot?
14:38:46 <orin> I should make a bot that uses a markov chain to imitate particular people
14:39:11 <orin> Then when they're not online, we can still act like they are
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14:42:02 <oerjan> int-e: fungot needs no updating he learns through synchronicity hth
14:42:03 <fungot> oerjan: wow.....you are very polite. umm......do you like the weather in atlanta? you seem uncertain. do not use notepad for small things
14:42:30 <oerjan> fungot: i don't use notepad for pretty much anything
14:42:31 <fungot> oerjan: news to me that postfix fits to standard english usage better than scheme.
14:43:33 <oerjan> fungot: well postfix doesn't fit scheme at _all_, so...
14:43:33 <fungot> oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? for as much as any other variable in plof... my english is bad for you. :)
14:43:34 <int-e> fungot: well, standard scheme doesn't transport email nearly as well as postfix does
14:43:34 <fungot> int-e: csc mailbox.scm -o3 -fv -lambda-lift -unsafe-libraries -d0 -b/ usr/ src/ fnord fnord fnord
14:44:09 <oerjan> plof, now that's ancient
14:44:34 -!- int-e has set topic: <fungot> oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? | Vǫwël Cøntınùům | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
14:44:52 <oerjan> from the time when Gregor actually had time to esolang
14:45:06 <oerjan> well except plof wasn't an esolang. but still.
14:46:28 <int-e> "my english is bad for you. :)" <-- finally fungоt admits the inconvenient truth.
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14:47:39 <orin> Is there a formula for how many symbols in base b can store N symbols in another base d?
14:48:16 <orin> I think it must use logarithm...
14:49:37 <orin> Oh, yeah. So I take the log(b,d^N) and round up.
14:50:46 <orin> I'm making a convertor back from binary to CSV
14:51:10 <orin> My program produces results as binary but I can't read binary
14:51:50 <int-e> oerjan: oh I saw a cute problem on ##math: show that A_n = sum_{i=1}^n sin(n)sin(n^2) is bounded.
14:52:08 <int-e> sin(i)sin(i^2) under the sum.
14:56:13 <orin> Lesee... sin(i) and sin(i^2) have the same sign if (i^2-i)/(PI/2) is near an odd number, opposite if it is near a even number
14:57:06 <orin> and typically it will have magnitude < 1
14:57:27 <orin> Actually, always.
14:58:06 <oerjan> oh bounded, not converging. hm.
14:59:12 <orin> yeah. |sin(i)| is <1 for all integers
14:59:36 <oerjan> well that much is obvious and doesn't immediately help.
15:00:23 <orin> Wait. Oh... we need to prove there are roughly equal numbers of positive and negative and their magnitudes are on avergae equal
15:01:31 <int-e> oerjan: fwiw, that was my initial reaction as well.
15:02:04 <oerjan> it's pretty obvious it cannot be converging
15:02:24 <oerjan> (you can always adjust n to get a term close to 1)
15:05:09 <oerjan> this probably needs some trick i cannot guess.
15:05:57 <orin> (i+1)^2-i-1 = i^2+2i+1-i-1 = i^2+i
15:06:29 <orin> So the difference between the things is 2i
15:06:58 <oerjan> if it were just sum_{i=1}^n sin(i) i could see how to do the "roughly equal" thing.
15:07:55 <orin> The thing you take mod pi/2 of to tell if a term is positive or negative
15:08:18 <oerjan> i suspect that's not going to help you.
15:09:03 <oerjan> and that some actual trigonometry is needed
15:09:09 <orin> It doesn't look jhopeful
15:14:09 <int-e> yeah the surprising bit is that actual trigonometry actually helps
15:14:55 <int-e> you can use sin(n)sin(n^2) = 1/2(cos(n-n^2) - cos(n+n^2)).
15:17:18 <orin> and n+n^2 = (n+1)^2-(n+1)
15:18:12 <int-e> Right, I should've written cos(n^2-n) - cos(n^2+n)
15:18:17 <orin> Which we can use to relate each term to previous term
15:19:52 <orin> e.g. in term i, we have -cos(i^2+i) and in term i+1 we have cos(i^2+i)
15:20:35 <int-e> the English call this a telescoping sum (Wikipedia says "series"): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Telescoping_series
15:21:00 <orin> Which means that the sum is (1/2)cos(0) - (1/2)cos(n^2-n)
15:21:18 <int-e> which is bounded :)
15:21:45 <orin> I think i may have something backwards,but basicall that's it
15:22:44 <oerjan> next, prove/disprove that it still holds with basically arbitrary polynomials instead hth
15:23:48 <oerjan> i.e. sum_{i=1}^n sin(p_1(i)) ... sin(p_k(i))
15:24:02 <oerjan> probably need to be non-constant at least
15:24:13 <oerjan> well, at least one of them
15:25:27 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i don't actually know the answer and when i tried to type that my hunch is it still holds, i got a hunch not to type it hth)
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15:43:27 <int-e> oerjan: well in any case it's unlikely to be "cute".
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15:54:55 <int-e> oerjan: are you disagreeing with my sense of cuteness?
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16:08:00 <int-e> Oh, one for elliott (who should be asleep): I have this irrational belief that all phenomena we observe have, in principle, a logical explanation (this is weaker than it may sound, because it includes chaotic systems like actual people making decisions, which are based on the laws of physics (great term) but which cannot be predicted in practice even though they, too, are governed by some...
16:08:06 <int-e> ...unknown laws of physics.)
16:09:22 <int-e> stupid redundancy (using irssi means I'm editing this in a 80 character wide line editor (minus prompt), so I never see it all at once...)
16:33:04 <orin> Suika Ibuki on Keith Olbermann
16:33:17 <orin> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIq9f3kW1cA
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17:44:53 <zzo38> Do you know answering my other questions? You didn't quite answer all of them.
17:45:59 <zzo38> This is messy http://esolangs.org/wiki/Stapler
17:46:59 <zzo38> The iron in two cars would have different position/momentum/configuration/etc so if you just switched all iron from one car with another instantaneously somehow, I think it would be explosive? Even if not, aren't the fermions anticommutative, and can the state have different quantum entanglement?
17:47:58 <zzo38> I read some book says that "d^2x" isn't consistent if d^2y/dx^2 is a second derivative; I did try to calculate myself (assuming that d^2x means d(dx)) and I did get a different more complicated answer that agrees with one in the book.
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18:02:19 <zzo38> I mean d is used for derivatives
18:02:29 <zzo38> Like dy/dx for derivative of y with respect to x
18:03:53 <shachaf> Yes, but what does it actually mean? What's d^2?
18:04:07 <orin> I have a book that attemps to use infinitesimals to put the d/dx notation on a good grounding
18:04:16 <orin> lemme get it one sec
18:04:51 <shachaf> There are lots of ways to do infinitesimals.
18:04:58 <shachaf> I think hyperreals are probably not the best way.
18:06:24 <orin> yeah so dy = f'(x)dx, where dx is an infinitesimal
18:06:49 <shachaf> "infinitesimal" can means lots of different things.
18:06:50 <zzo38> A d^2 is apparently nothing in the normal way, but the new way has d^2x meaning d(dx) so it is the "d" operator applied twice
18:07:22 <zzo38> Something like dx and dy are just derivative operators on x and y that act in certain ways by mathematically.
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18:08:01 <orin> dx is defined to be an infinitesimal that is "infinitely small" _as compared to_ x
18:08:03 <zzo38> I told you what is the new way
18:08:24 <zzo38> orin: That doesn't make a lot of sense to me, but I see it is often defined like that
18:08:42 <shachaf> You haven't even said what "infinitesimal" means. Is it a hyperreal?
18:08:54 <orin> Shachaf: yaehg
18:09:25 <orin> The book is "Foundations of infinitesimal calculus" by H Jerome Keisler
18:09:52 <zzo38> To me it is just a "derivative operator"; it doesn't look like any amount of "small" or anything like that; but, if the result is the same regardless then it is just as much correct.
18:11:01 <shachaf> zzo38: There's the exterior derivative operation, which is called d. But for that operation d^2 = 0
18:11:20 <zzo38> I am not talking about the exterior derivative operation
18:11:56 <shachaf> So what's the derivative operator?
18:12:39 <zzo38> It is an operator with certain mathematical properties.
18:14:50 <zzo38> It operates on however the derivative is figured, such as d(x^2) = 2xdx and so on.
18:15:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: can you show that irc logging to sqlite database stuff you've made? I'm not going to use it as is, but now I'm curios and might learn from it
18:16:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: http://sprunge.us/BMbX
18:19:26 <b_jonas> you use \r\n instead of just \n as the line terminator for commands? are there irc servers that don't like \n ?
18:21:02 <zzo38> The RFC specifies that \r\n is used as the line terminator. (I think this is common of many internet protocols.)
18:21:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's what the rfc says, and servers send you \r\n
18:22:01 <b_jonas> but at least freenode allows receiving just \n fine, and if you do that, you get one more bytes from the 512 byte line length limit, though that rarely matters
18:22:30 <b_jonas> I mean, you can send one more payload byte that way
18:23:07 <zzo38> But the protocol is supposed to use \r\n even if most (all?) servers accept just \n
18:23:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: the rfcs are old, and I'm using other extensions too
18:23:50 <shachaf> zzo38: Do you know where I can read about the meaning of the d operator?
18:24:14 <zzo38> shachaf: Try on Wikipedia? I don't know
18:24:49 <b_jonas> zzo38: static int buffer_length_max=2992; => I use 3040 for some reason, but I think that's not the precise limit
18:26:19 <b_jonas> ah, but apparently it's overridable
18:26:22 <b_jonas> that's why you didn't declare it const
18:26:37 <fizzie> int-e: No, none of the models is (yet, at least) automatically updated.
18:26:46 <fizzie> int-e: Arguably, I should do that.
18:26:51 <zzo38> Yes, if a SQL code calls the IRCCONFIG function it can override the buffer_length_max
18:27:24 <fizzie> int-e: Although there's a bit of an issue in that the irc model was trained with a rather different algorithm, so wouldn't that be kind of like murder? It might completely change its personality.
18:28:31 <b_jonas> fizzie: thanks for the info
18:28:48 <zzo38> fizzie: Can't you do both kinds, to make two kind of model?
18:29:11 <int-e> fizzie: I'm fine with the current state of affairs. (And indeed, you should preserve the current irc model, and perhaps have another dynirc model that's getting updated)
18:29:46 <int-e> so if the latter turns evil we can get rid of it :P
18:31:39 <b_jonas> you're calling sqlite3_prepare, rather than sqlite3_prepare_v2? strange
18:32:55 <zzo38> b_jonas: You use sqlite3_prepare_v2 in case it should auto-reprepare if the schema is changed, but the schema isn't supposed to change while it is running. If you want to allow it, change it to sqlite3_prepare_v2.
18:33:25 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, I just thought it was easiest to always use sqlite3_prepare_v2
18:33:28 <zzo38> (Changing the schema while running and repreparing can cause statements to reset in the middle and stuff like that, which might cause problems sometimes)
18:33:44 <Phantom_Hoover> zzo38, you realise that 'dx' basically doesn't have a formal definition in mathematics?
18:34:30 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: no, that's just what they say to you
18:34:30 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Are you sure? I thought it is stuff like d(x^2) = 2xdx and stuff like that, but that the d^2x for second derivatives doesn't have a formal definition.
18:34:45 <Phantom_Hoover> it's used in general as a suggestive hint and it has a couple of very domain-specific definitions that don't really work for all the ways the notation is used
18:35:06 <zzo38> (Unless you use the variant notation (which is more complicated) where d^2x is valid)
18:35:49 <coppro> yes, typically it's just a notation
18:36:04 <coppro> but you can in fact formalize bits of the notation
18:36:07 <orin> d(x^2)/dx = I couldn't find any older calculus textbooks, but I do have an old physics textbook here
18:36:47 <orin> which refers vaguley to infinitesimals but doesn't formalize anything
18:37:42 <zzo38> If d^2x mean d(dx) then the second derivative is supposed to be (d^2y - d^2x dy/dx) / dx^2
18:37:57 <zzo38> You can even calculate this yourself; that's what I did.
18:38:10 <zzo38> But also the answer is in book; I came up with the same answer.
18:38:47 <b_jonas> wait, you assume the buffer is cleared if you get any PONG? so the higher levels aren't allowed to send PONGs at all?
18:38:57 <Phantom_Hoover> yes but the point is that if you try to formalise the notation like that you'll quickly run into contradictions
18:40:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: I don't know the best way? Therefore I did like that. If you make improvement you can send to me too I can fix my program too
18:40:56 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: If you are careful then I don't expect having a lot of problem? I assume to don't use any "disembodied operators" though.
18:41:51 <b_jonas> I send a PING with a specific body, "PING B\n" and only assume the buffer cleared if I get a PONG with the second argument equal to "B"
18:41:52 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: What sorts of contradictions?
18:42:01 <shachaf> The d notation works so well that I'd like to believe that it can be formalized.
18:42:23 <Phantom_Hoover> shachaf, i honestly don't remember off the top of my hat. try making your notation work with integrals, at least
18:42:45 <shachaf> Well, half the fun is making it work with integrals.
18:43:10 <shachaf> Things like ∫ ... dy/dx dx = ∫ ... dy
18:43:17 <Phantom_Hoover> there's a reason the two main formalisations of calculus use either epsilontics or a much more nuanced set-theoretic description of infinitesimals that the 'dx' notation can't express
18:43:18 <b_jonas> zzo38: also, wait, do you assume that your nick can never change?
18:43:37 <shachaf> Phantom_Hoover: You're talking about hyperreals?
18:43:49 <b_jonas> the server can change your nick by sending a "NICK" statement, and it does this when there's a nick collision after a netunsplit
18:44:01 <zzo38> b_jonas: Yes. I didn't add all the stuff in yet, but perhaps it should be added in.
18:44:07 <shachaf> What about synthetic differential geometry?
18:44:22 <shachaf> If that's the thing I'm thinking of.
18:44:34 <zzo38> As I said, if you make improvements I will merge them in (as long as they are compatible with public domain; CC0 and Unlicense are also OK)
18:45:17 <b_jonas> and knowing your nick is useful because it lets you tell if a KICK statement is kicking you from a channel or someone else, though I just chose the simple solution that if the server changes my nick, I make the bot exit
18:45:46 <shachaf> Smooth infinitesimal analysis.
18:46:33 <zzo38> b_jonas: Clearly doesn't seems the best solution, but you can do that by adding triggers (even if proper nick change handling is added into the program)
18:49:33 <orin> Damn. I was hoping I had a calculus textbook from before the move to limits reached classrooms, but I don't
18:50:16 <orin> "A School Geometry" from 1933 but that isn't calculus
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19:01:14 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, the proper solution would be ghosting the user using my desired nick, then nicking back to it
19:01:17 -!- hilquias has joined.
19:01:46 <b_jonas> and at the same time following what my current nick is while that happens
19:03:23 <b_jonas> and giving up only if I can't get my original nick back in a few attempts of ghosting.
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19:19:47 <nvd> Aaaaaah why does anything exist
19:22:19 <orin> because Eru Illuvatar.
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19:26:51 <b_jonas> nvd: nothing actually exists. the Monkey is just imagining everything that you think exists very carefully, because he's bored otherwise.
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19:51:38 <pikhq> Hum, funky. HTTP specifically mentions the notion of an HTTP proxy being used for purposes of translating between protocols.
19:52:12 <nvd> I have decided that reality exists because it is mathematically consistent and thus were it to be simulated the simulation of me would experience the same perceptions I do
19:52:26 <pikhq> e.g.: GET gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/world HTTP/1.1 is a perfectly reasonable request.
19:52:26 <nvd> And thus as a mathematical model this universe must exist
19:52:43 <pikhq> An implementing proxy would of course translate that Gopher menu to HTML.
19:54:56 <pikhq> Or (more useful but also more bizarre): GET ftp://ftp.gnu.org/ HTTP/1.1
19:57:31 <zzo38> I suppose it is valid for a HTTP server to do that (although <gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/world> means to request the selector "orld" of type "w"; for a menu the type should be "1")
19:58:07 <pikhq> Sorry, I was incorrect in the URL.
19:58:23 <pikhq> gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/world is the actual URL.
19:58:48 <pikhq> But yes, it appears both valid and intended for an HTTP proxy to function in that manner.
19:58:58 <nvd> In C, if a pointer dereferences to a value, is it guaranteed that it will always dereference to some value?
19:59:30 <pikhq> nvd: No, it is possible for system state to change such that that pointer is invalid.
19:59:41 <nvd> As in, crash the program invalid?#
20:00:18 <pikhq> (the most obvious ways are for a free() call to invalidate the pointer or for the object the pointer points at to go out of scope)
20:01:15 <pikhq> char *foo(void) {char a = 'f';return &a;} /* This returns an invalid pointer. Dereferencing it is invalid. */
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20:37:32 <orin> Note that a null pointer isn't the same thing as an invalid pointer. Dereferencing a invalid pointer *may* still work, it is just not defined by language standard. For example, on an NES, you might do: short *BRKVEC = 0xFFFE; to access the address of the break interrupt handler. But that behaviour isn't part of the language standard/
20:40:39 <orin> IOW, in some code, you might see stuff that seems to be totally invalid, becuase such code is written for a specific hardware where the behavour is known
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21:22:00 <HackEgo> thirds: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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21:45:54 <int-e> . o O ( coming back for seconds? )
21:46:35 <zzo38> No! You need to coming back for thirds! It says right there!
21:52:47 <Sgeo> Is IE supposed to make sense?
21:53:20 <Sgeo> Hmm, it's fixed in 11
21:54:51 <pikhq> orin: In both cases it's explicitly undefined behavior by the *spec*.
21:55:06 <pikhq> orin: It just so happens an implementation may decide to define undefined behavior.
21:55:33 <pikhq> e.g. a NES C compiler could just define that UB pointer accesses go to the RAM address corresponding to the pointer and all is well.
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21:56:55 <zzo38> There is such a C compiler to target NES but I don't know what it does in that case, although only $0000-$1FFF is RAM (and most of it is mirrored)
21:59:44 <zzo38> So address 0 is also RAM
21:59:52 <zzo38> Because in 6502 it is zero-page.
22:00:38 <zzo38> How can you number the forms of each pokemon which is having multi forms with different attack/stat/etc?
22:01:07 <notfowl> The og 151 don't have alternate forms
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22:13:11 <int-e> . o O ( start at 1, and come back when you run out of natural numbers... )
22:22:27 <zzo38> I mean to use the numbers which are universal in any program which deal with such thing. I mean to have first the pokemon number and then another field is the form number (zero if it doesn't have alternate forms)
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22:32:25 <elliott> pikhq: is *((int *)((intptr_t)1234)) = 123; actually UB
22:32:37 <elliott> I feel like it's only UB if that pointer isn't okay, which it might be
22:34:26 <elliott> thirds: have you been here before? kinda half-recognise your name
22:39:33 <oerjan> formerly known as twothirds
22:41:28 <int-e> . o O ( There is no such nick nth )
22:41:53 <oerjan> there' nthern on the wiki iirc
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22:44:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 102200Z 04014KT 15SM BKN023 OVC040 15/12 A3010 RMK SC6SC2 SLP194
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22:48:25 <nvd> I should get my local weather thing into an IRC bot...
22:48:40 <nvd> I think I can scrape http://weather.elec.york.ac.uk/liveOutput/vaisala/current.html to get it
22:54:31 <boily> nvellod. I had a bot. it was phagocyted by lambdabot.
22:55:11 <lambdabot> KOAK 102153Z 25006KT 10SM FEW010 SCT016 SCT200 15/08 A3006 RMK AO2 SLP179 T01500083
22:55:18 <nvd> I am writing (slowly) a bot written in Agda
22:55:26 <nvd> Which seems to be the worst language to write a bot in
22:55:53 <boily> therefore it's the best language to write a bot in.
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23:01:40 <oerjan> our channel fractionally diminished
23:02:03 <shachaf> don't worry, they'll be back
23:02:06 <shachaf> they already came back for seconds
23:03:19 <nvd> boily, that is why I am writing a bot in it!
23:03:30 <nvd> However I don't think I'll do much work on it until exams are over
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23:16:38 <fizzie> Vaisala, that's a Finnish company.
23:17:31 <fizzie> (It should be "Väisälä", but...)
23:17:57 <nvd> fizzie, they have something to do with the weather station atop my uni's electronics department!
23:18:22 <fizzie> Yes, they do measurement stuff.
23:18:23 <shachaf> fizzie: Should it? They seem to spell it with 'a's in English.
23:18:43 <fizzie> shachaf: Well, I mean, yes, it's "Vaisala" officially. A different sort of "should".
23:18:59 <fizzie> shachaf: It's named after Vilho Väisälä.
23:19:46 <shachaf> At what point should you decide to transliterate?
23:20:06 <shachaf> I don't know that ä is used in any English words.
23:20:08 <fizzie> Possibly as soon as you have global ambitions.
23:20:17 <oerjan> tränsliteräte eärly, tränsliteräte öften
23:21:29 <nvd> shachaf, I think it might be in some loanwords from German?
23:21:41 <shachaf> nvd: Maybe a few lone words.
23:22:43 * orin tries to like DiGiTAL WiNG on facebook
23:22:50 <orin> 6 people like this
23:25:20 <fizzie> nvd: Anyway, the page looks like something they really should publish in JSON or XML or ASN.1-BER or protobufs or...
23:27:40 <nvd> Yeah, I know...
23:27:53 <fizzie> We used to have a fancy weather page at the radiolab's home page, but it seems to no longer exist. Although I don't think it was very open-data-friendly either.
23:28:30 <fizzie> And admittedly the remaining http://outside.aalto.fi/ is even less scrapable.
23:28:50 <fizzie> Oh, http://outside.aalto.fi/data.txt
23:29:06 <fizzie> I retract my complaint. Although they could actually link to that.
23:30:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42830&oldid=41716 * Rottytooth * (-3) if we're going to have a "see also" section, makes sense to put Fugue there as well
23:31:22 <nvd> One of my friends once caused an impressive bot loop in another channel
23:31:39 <nvd> There were two bots, one which printed the title of links posted, the other which could evaluate brainfuck
23:32:14 <nvd> He spent about a day writing a brainfuck program which printed a URL, and making it short enough to not get cut off
23:32:48 <nvd> And then set the page at that URL's title to be the the command to make the bot execute that program
23:34:16 <oerjan> @google i don't see how that could possibly work
23:34:18 <lambdabot> http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?DoTheSimplestThingThatCouldPossiblyWork
23:34:18 <lambdabot> Title: Do The Simplest Thing That Could Possibly Work
23:34:50 <nvd> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
23:35:11 <oerjan> !bf http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
23:35:48 <nvd> EgoBot can do a URL?
23:36:24 <nvd> By which I mean, EgoBot can read the title of a page, unescape it, and execute it as though it were brainfuck?
23:36:26 <oerjan> yes, although apparently not unescape html entities
23:36:44 <oerjan> it reads the page source, obviously
23:37:07 <nvd> !bf ++++[>++++++<-]>[>++>++++>+++++<<<-]>>++++++++.++++++++++++..----.<++++++++++.-----------..>++.+++.-------.-----------.++++++.++++.------------.+++++++++++++.<-.>------.-------.++.++++++++.++++++++.----.------------.<.>++++++++++++.+++.-----------.<+.>>++++++.<+++++.+++.+++.--------------.---.+++++++++++++++++.---.<.>-------------.++++.<-.>++.++++++++++++.-------.-.
23:37:07 <EgoBot> http://runciman.hacksoc.org/~lordaro/bf.html
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01:24:30 <nvd> Hmm, I am confused about what a "monitor" (in terms of concurrency) is
01:24:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Velato]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42831&oldid=42830 * Rottytooth * (-4) /* External resources */ updated link
01:26:52 <nvd> Can any of you explain it to me
01:29:28 <Sgeo> I think there's an explanation in the Pharo docs
01:34:32 <orin> Monitors provide a mechanism for threads to temporarily give up exclusive access in order to wait for some condition to be met, before regaining exclusive access and resuming their task. -- Wiki
01:36:29 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Don%27t_abbreviate_%22Wikipedia%22_as_%22Wiki%22! hth
01:37:15 <orin> So while you're waiting, some other thread uses the locked object and modifies it to make what you're witing for true.
01:37:47 <oerjan> people who call wikipedia "wiki" go to place after they die hth
01:38:50 <shachaf> oerjan: that page is just wiki's point of view hth
01:40:38 <oerjan> shachaf: have fun in place hth
01:46:29 <Sgeo> Unhelpfully, my IRC client assumes that ! is not part of a URL
01:47:10 <zzo38> What is your opinion of these kind of thing? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/gmm.txt
01:48:04 <pikhq> Pity, an IRC client ought to at least have some knowledge of the chars that can be in a URL.
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01:48:21 <oerjan> Sgeo: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:DAW hth
01:49:03 <orin> screw that. words are defined by usage
01:49:09 <zzo38> pikhq: Another way is to just do, assume < > and spaces and control characters are not part of the URL; that is a simple way probably work in many (but not all) cases.
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01:49:24 <shachaf> oerjan: "don't abbreviate wiki"?
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01:49:43 <zzo38> Still I agree not to abbreviate "Wikipedia" as "Wiki"; you can term "wiki" just as a general term which can include Wikipedia and others.
01:50:14 <orin> Wiki is wikipedia wiki is any wiki
01:50:28 <oerjan> fine, fine, excuse me while i orin my nose
01:51:20 <orin> words can also drink new definitions link context
01:51:52 <oerjan> shachaf: changing the meaning of words is such a scow
01:52:38 <orin> also, you can deliberately words and mind automatically them in
01:52:44 <Jafet> In-place fun algorithms
01:56:37 <oerjan> orin: hippy birdy to yew
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02:06:36 <pikhq> zzo38: That is close to the actual spec, so fair enough.
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02:14:40 <zzo38> I made this now: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope
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02:20:26 <orin> ALL GLORY TO THE HYPNOTOAD
02:22:20 <pikhq> zzo38: Your list of chars, the URL spec.
02:22:56 <orin> % encoding intercts badly with printf
02:23:20 <orin> "%%%d" god damn it
02:23:52 <zzo38> But you can use "%s" and then the other parameter is string and then such % encoding in a URL can be use with printf
02:24:17 <zzo38> That still isn't quite right
02:24:28 <zzo38> I think it is supposed to be "%%%02X"
02:24:30 <pikhq> The characters allowed are just alphanumerics and -._~:/?#[]@!$&'()*+,;=%
02:24:56 <zzo38> Then, it is easy to implement
02:25:24 <pikhq> So yes, your suggested approach would work perfectly well though it would accept some "URLs" that aren't actually URLs. (I don't think this is really a problem though)
02:28:42 <zzo38> Do you like a <BAL|FSV> = 0 notation?
02:29:03 <shachaf> What does that notation mean?
02:29:17 <zzo38> Do you know how to guess?
02:29:32 <zzo38> It is a Dirac notation but do you know the letters?
02:33:31 <shachaf> Maybe a good guess would be that |FSV> represents the current state of all accounts and currency units, and <BAL| is a covector representing the list of all accounts.
02:34:31 <zzo38> Yes, if FSV means "financial state vector"; it is another kind of accounting equation I think it is more mathematically elegant than the other one? What do *you* think?
02:34:56 <shachaf> I thought it meant Fiscal State Vector.
02:35:53 <shachaf> I was going by http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/2010-06-24.txt
02:37:00 <zzo38> Wiktionary says "fiscal" also means financial but such usage is "proscribed"?
02:37:13 <zzo38> Which means they don't recommend it
02:37:18 <shachaf> zzo38: Are you going to ICFP this year?
02:38:04 <zzo38> ICFP? Where is that?
02:39:52 <zzo38> O, and when, and what is it doing this year?
02:40:09 <zzo38> If it is Vancouver then, possibly yes
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02:40:46 <shachaf> http://icfpconference.org/icfp2015/
02:40:51 <shachaf> I don't know, I've never been.
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02:43:05 <zzo38> Do you have to go there to read their paper?
02:43:37 <shachaf> No, the papers are all published online, I think.
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02:45:16 <zzo38> Can I buy printouts if I attend there though?
02:49:32 <zzo38> If I am near that hotel then I will check.
02:50:48 <zzo38> Which programs to write music into .XM/.MOD formats can use the kind of user interfaces other than a standard tracker interface, other than AmigaMML? If you know some which is also free software then please notify me I can make a list
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03:37:43 <orin> k seriously wine is bullshit
03:38:21 <orin> "a hint of apple" -- it tastes like grapes and alcoholl, dumbass
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03:58:41 <orin> Also how can they grow grapes in germany isn't it cold?
04:10:16 <orin> Maybe the ocean currents keep them nice and warm in the winter
04:11:44 <orin> \me googles map of europe, and sees germany is around the same latitude as england
04:12:27 <orin> england was cold as balls
04:12:45 <orin> although that might be because it was always raining
04:14:21 <oerjan> the grapes are generally grown in summer not winter hth
04:14:30 <orin> It did not stop raining the entire 2 weeks I as in england, in the summer
04:15:12 <oerjan> strangely enough, i've read there are wine producers in england
04:17:10 <pikhq> They apparently do wine production in freaking Canada, too.
04:17:24 <oerjan> nice map https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wine-producing_regions
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04:31:07 <Decim> @bf +++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++>+++++>++++++>+++++++<<<<<<-]+++++++++++++++>>>>----.>>++++++.<++++++++++.<<<<++.>>>>.---.>--.+.
04:31:26 <Decim> I broke my laptop screen uwu
04:32:00 <Decim> Or my cat sat on it ;-;
04:34:57 <orin> I haven't had a working screen on my laptop for a week or so
04:35:31 <orin> Do you have an external monitor you can use
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08:30:20 <fizzie> @ask oerjan How about people who call it "the pedia"?
08:38:53 <mroman> who calls what the pedia?
08:39:31 <quintopia> i'm guessing wikipedia, though pediatrician is also reasonable
08:39:55 <mroman> I was thinking about a pediatric clinic
08:40:16 <mroman> "My child is sick. Let's go to the pedia!"
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08:40:30 <fizzie> That was re <oerjan> people who call wikipedia "wiki" go to place after they die hth
08:40:39 <b_jonas> fungot, when your child is sick, do you take them to the pedia?
08:40:40 <fungot> b_jonas: c++ might be good to give them some thought
08:41:08 <fizzie> That was left deliberately unspecified, I think.
08:41:22 <mroman> It thinks if your child is sick just give it some C++
08:42:20 <quintopia> @ask oerjan how about "the great wiki"?
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08:59:27 <mroman> @ask oerjan How about "the w"?
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09:46:00 <mroman> why do ebooks have ISBN
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10:17:36 <orin> mroman: probably for practical reasons like lookup
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10:18:14 <orin> titles of books are not unique identification
10:22:11 <mroman> E-Books aren't real books .
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10:42:15 <b_jonas> mroman: libraries can lend ebooks, and the isbn gives an easy way to compare that two books really are the exact same edition
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11:22:01 <mroman> fungot: isn't DOI cool?
11:22:01 <fungot> mroman: i think the website describe it
11:29:18 <fizzie> If ISDN is short for "I Still Don't Need it" (or "I Smell Dollars Now"), what's ISBN short for?
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11:35:29 <mroman> I still believe nothing?
11:35:59 <mroman> fungot: Are you on an ISDN connection?
11:36:00 <fungot> mroman: good luck with that, it's really sexy :) i just glanced at it.
11:36:29 <fizzie> I'm not sure that's the word I'd use.
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11:56:52 <Jafet> Bad fizzie, must have pilloried fungot behind V90 dial-up.
11:56:53 <fungot> Jafet: take four squares and connect them at the shell
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12:54:56 <fizzie> Jafet: No, no: K56flex.
12:56:06 <fungot> mroman: invalid character:'. try again! maybe with fnord hmm? it won't be too hard
13:03:24 <fizzie> Push the shell... Climb the shell...
13:03:50 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
13:03:58 <fizzie> fungot: Say something about shells.
13:03:58 <fungot> fizzie: we are looking, but well behaved! crono!! crono!!!
13:04:04 <fungot> fizzie: need a clone? the magician, nolstein bekkler! executing program. please let me go... put me out! he's really a tricycle! pass him!
13:07:27 <mroman> fungot: I could use a clone.
13:07:27 <fungot> mroman: by thy leave, crono?!! you brought back my cat! thank you, crono! are you leaving!
13:07:43 <mroman> ct isn't a neat style for conversations :(
13:07:51 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct* darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
13:08:07 <fungot> Selected style: lovecraft (H. P. Lovecraft's writings)
13:08:11 <fungot> mroman: for in time, and space, and kuranes awaked in his london garret. there in the cellar laboratory and gazed at the cyclopean ruins that fnord over mars' ruddy disc. when the crowd was gone i saw the alert, manned by a queer and evil-looking crew of fnord and fnord, fnord
13:08:14 <fungot> Selected style: ct (Chrono Trigger game script)
13:10:04 <fungot> Selected style: youtube (Some YouTube comments)
13:10:09 <fungot> mroman: i love it! too short of a job in a paralell flight with 130 passengers on board.
13:10:31 <mroman> How did you gather youtube comments?
13:14:11 <fizzie> Someone submitted me a file that had manually scraped (I believe copy-paste and then some formatting) comments of like three videos.
13:14:59 <fizzie> One of them is about a flight crash or a missing flight or something, so lot of it is about planes.
13:15:07 <fizzie> fungot: Is there a conspiracy about the flight?
13:15:08 <fungot> fizzie: are you now know some have information that could deem your position as, well, in alsace/ france.
13:15:18 <fizzie> fungot: That sounds vaguely ominous.
13:15:18 <fungot> fizzie: looks like it has taken me 15 seconds'? are describing yourself now?
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13:16:36 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
13:16:54 <Jafet> A more dynamic and engaging fungot personality.
13:16:54 <fungot> Jafet: ( newline) foo) with a frobozz argument, too: you might want to slow down the
13:18:05 <fizzie> Yes, very dynamic and engaging.
13:18:24 <fizzie> Personally, I think europarl is one of the "best-working" ones, FSVO.
13:18:29 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
13:18:43 <fizzie> fungot: So what about the UK 2015 election results?
13:18:44 <fungot> fizzie: madam president, commissioner, firstly i would like to reiterate the two statements of the different legal systems, in accordance with the voting list. you, who criticize tobacco: first of all to congratulate the rapporteur at the very least difficult, as we have done with the laissez-faire attitude which characterised the environmentalism of the 1970s, made a commitment to human rights.
13:19:07 <fizzie> fungot: So... not so good, then?
13:19:08 <fungot> fizzie: the action plan for ukraine, and indeed exclusively, to italy, i was present in the incineration of hazardous waste, in accordance with articles 61 and 63 of the intervention of the structural funds and the cohesion fund, the world' s poorest countries have the right to provide information, which where it is lacking, but also of the immigrants present in considerable numbers in our countries targeted against the symbols
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13:24:05 <HackEgo> 1057) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time
13:26:24 <mroman> although riding an unicycle with a sword sounds more impressing
13:26:38 <mroman> especially if you plan on hosting unicycle sword combat tournaments.
13:27:08 <mroman> @ask Taneb How's that unicycling going?
13:27:20 <fizzie> "Every seat I have is as sharp as a razor, so you always play to roll." To quote a random sentence from a bike blog.
13:30:10 <HackEgo> 833) <shachaf> Bike: Your client colours people? <Bike> it would be pretty boring to see everyone as white, i get that enough in real life \ 836) <Bike> "damn, my port of ghc to php isn't properly taking javascript booleans into account" \ 856) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably t
13:30:17 <HackEgo> 1057) <Taneb> I would like to learn how to use a sword <Taneb> And also how to ride a unicycle <Taneb> Perhaps not at the same time \ 1187) <Bike> learn you a unicycle for great good
13:30:39 <HackEgo> 856) <kmc> i bet a blog post complaining about ");});});" syntax in JavaScript and comparing it unfavorably to Lisp would get approximately one billion comments on hacker news <Bike> but at what cost? your very soul, kmc!
13:31:25 <mroman> "JavaScript as bad as LISP"
13:32:31 <mroman> github wont let me search for ))) and );});});
13:33:37 <mroman> and https://searchcode.com/?q=%29%3B}%29%3B}%29%3B gives me 500
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14:35:49 <mroman> fungot: fungot: fungot: fungot: fungot:
14:35:50 <fungot> mroman: mr president, like other speakers, i would cite, for example, as regards its model of development, on the appalling abuses perpetrated by the talibans in the name of the fight against terrorism. despite this raft of proposals, when the political will to provide information regularly, here and there. at the same time, try to achieve something. at the moment.
14:37:14 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
14:37:21 <mroman> fungot: Do you want to play unreal tournament?
14:37:22 <fungot> mroman: have i mentioned i compiled scheme48 at the moment too.))
14:38:08 <mroman> why's it called Scheme48 when Scheme did not exist before 1975?
14:39:02 <mroman> oh wait. that's an implementation of scheme
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15:37:18 <HackEgo> olist 984: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
15:39:17 <J_Arcane> mroman: "It is called "Scheme 48" because the first version was written in 48 hours in August 1986.[7]"
15:40:33 <izabera> that's like calling it scheme crap
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15:51:06 <zzo38> Any accountant is going to see <BAL|FSV> = 0 and is going to say.........What???????????I am fused!!!!!!!!!!!!!
15:57:57 <zzo38> Can you win the Ig Nobel prize for proving that it is impossible to use complex numbers in accounting?
15:58:25 <int-e> No, that just shows lack of imagination.
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16:01:24 <int-e> No, of course not.
16:02:28 <int-e> You'd think that accountants don't have any use for imaginary numbers but then how would any frauds ever happen?
16:03:06 <zzo38> By impossible, I mean impossible to use and to comply with GAAP at the same time.
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16:03:45 <zzo38> So I don't consider frauds and other kind of illegal stuff like that as valid
16:05:53 <orin> ^style europarl
16:05:53 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
16:06:21 <orin> fungot, how come you don't have a guy yelling in German at the top ofhis lungs every tenth word
16:06:22 <fungot> orin: with regard to the current situation of each of the member state in which they are proposing to cooperate with countries at war or that arm themselves for war, for exploitation and for that reason, i believe that we should resume negotiations at a technical level. my fourth point has to do with whether you use e and all possible relevant data collected by the european union
16:06:51 <orin> must be a consolidated and translated corpus
16:17:26 <zzo38> They deleted the German words since it interferes with the algorithm, I suppose.
16:19:44 <b_jonas> orin: I think the german yelling is translated to English too
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16:40:09 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:41:34 <Somelauw> !bf32 >+[[>>+>+<<<-]>>>[<<<+>>>-]<<+>[<->[>++++++++++<[->-[>+>>]>[+[-<+>]>+>>]<<<<<]>[-]++++++++[<++++++>-]>[<<+>>-]>[<<+>>-]<<]>]<[->>++++++++[<++++++>-]]<[.[-]<]++++++++++.[-]<[->+>+<<]>>[-<<+>>]<<<[->>>+<<<]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]>[-<+>]<[-<+>]<]
16:41:34 <EgoBot> 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \ 8 \ 13 \ 21 \ 34 \ 55 \ 89 \ 144 \ 233 \ 121 \ 98 \ 219 \ 61 \ 24 \ 85 \ 109 \ 194 \ 47 \ 241 \ 32 \ 17 \ 49 \ 66 \ 115 \ 181 \ 40 \ 221 \ 5 \ 226 \ 231 \ 201 \ 176 \ 121 \ 41 \ 162 \ 203 \ 109 \ 56 \ 165 \ 221 \ 130 \ 95 \ 225 \ 64 \ 33 \ 97 \ 130 \ 227 \ 101 \ 72 \ 173 \ 245 \ 162 \ 151 \ 57 \ 208 \ 9 \ 217 \ 226 \ 187 \ 157 \ 88 \ 245 \ 77 \ 66 \ 143 \ 209 \ 96 \ 49 \ 145 \ 194 \ 83 \ 21 \ 104
16:42:00 <Somelauw> 32 bit means it can count to 4294967296
16:46:18 <Somelauw> also the mercurial repository of EgoBot seems to be done
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17:25:01 <zzo38> Are these enough instruments making .XM musics? https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Instruments
17:55:00 <tswett> My favorite recursive acronym is RASARAWF.
17:55:18 <tswett> Recursive Acronyms Such As "RASARAWF" Are Well-Founded.
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18:04:44 <scoofy> then why did it could only up to 255
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18:19:37 <Somelauw> scoofy: that's my question. In my own interpreter it goes beyond 256.
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19:19:08 <zzo38> Does <BAL|FSV> = 0 means that <BAL| and |FSV> are orthogonal to each other?
19:27:04 <tswett> zzo38: I think that's exactly the definition of orthogonality.
19:29:53 <zzo38> Yes, I thought so too
19:32:29 <zzo38> I read in some book about polonium halos that they didn't know how they worked. Do you know now though?
19:46:57 <zzo38> Well, I looked it up in Wikipedia and it says they are known since 20th century and "The most widely accepted explanation is that the discolouration is caused by alpha particles emitted by the nuclei"; apparently still not known perfectly though, possibly not even due to polonium or any radioactivity.........?
20:37:15 <fizzie> Hm. Wonder why a logrotate config of "/foo/a /foo/b { ... }" rotated only the logfile b, even though both exist in the directory /foo, and the permissions etc. are the same.
20:40:44 <fizzie> As far as I can tell from the man page, it should be valid.
20:40:49 <fizzie> I wonder if logrotate logs somewhere.
20:44:55 <fizzie> (Logic paradox, akin to the barber thing: if all logs are rotated, and either a program rotates its own logs or logrotate rotates them, and logrotate rotates only the logs of the programs that do not rotate their own logs, who rotates the logs of logrotate?)
20:45:23 <ais523> I think it would rotate its own logs even though that doesn't quite fit the definition
20:46:43 <fizzie> Hm. /var/lib/logrotate/status has "2015-5-11-6:0:0" for a and "2015-5-11-6:25:5" for b.
20:46:51 <zzo38> How os logrotate working?
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20:47:33 <ais523> fizzie: maybe a just isn't big enough to rotate?
20:47:59 <fizzie> a is substantially bigger than b.
20:48:49 <fizzie> FWIW, the configuration block is "daily; rotate 31; dateext; nocompress; missingok; create 640 <redacted> <redacted>; sharedscripts; postrotate; <redacted>; endscript".
20:49:00 <fizzie> Although maybe there's some relevant global settings.
20:49:34 <fizzie> There seem to be no non-overridden global options.
20:50:47 <fizzie> Wonder why one is 6:0:0 and the other is 6:25:5. I assume they're the timestamps, since b-20150511 has a modification time of 06:25.
20:52:05 <ais523> timestamps that aren't padded to two digits? interesting
20:53:15 <fizzie> I submitted a change the other day that fixed one instance of (a debugging tool) saving to filenames with non-padded timestamps.
20:53:32 <fizzie> Made them sort all wrong in file listings.
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20:55:41 <fizzie> logrotate's debug mode should have a flag that makes it pretend the current time is something else, so I could test if it will rotate those logs tomorrow.
20:56:00 <ais523> <bad idea>you could use web of lies?</bad idea>
20:57:15 <fizzie> Sounds a bit too much.
20:58:10 <ais523> besides, I think weboflies currently hardcodes the time as 1 September 1993
21:05:06 <fizzie> I edited the status file to pretend a was last rotated "2015-5-10-6:0:0", and now logrotate -d says it would rotate it.
21:05:58 <fizzie> Meh. Maybe it was some sort of a fluke.
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21:14:16 <zzo38> Do you have any information about how to write Startracker AM/NT files?
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21:40:18 <lambdabot> fizzie asked 13h 9m 58s ago: How about people who call it "the pedia"?
21:40:18 <lambdabot> quintopia asked 12h 57m 58s ago: how about "the great wiki"?
21:40:18 <lambdabot> mroman asked 12h 40m 51s ago: How about "the w"?
21:42:08 <oerjan> fizzie: they go to the library hth
21:43:18 <oerjan> quintopia: they go to the elemental plane of exaggeration hth
21:43:28 <oerjan> I HOPE THIS CLEARS IT UP
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21:48:37 <oerjan> <mroman> go to what place? <-- THATSTHEJOKE.JPG
21:51:22 <zzo38> Actually I found the libxmp source-codes I can see how they work; FM synth is converted to samples (like in AmigaMML) so isn't stored the parameters in the file, but AM synth does store parameters in the file and is not converted to samples.
21:52:28 <shachaf> just like people drop "pedia" from "wikipedia", you drop "pedia" from "placepedia"
21:54:39 * oerjan sidles carefully away from shachaf's madness
21:55:01 <shachaf> placepedia is presumably the premier source of placenta information
21:55:46 <oerjan> aka the latin word for "cake" hth
21:56:30 <shachaf> i once watched my cat eat her placenta hth
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21:59:39 <oerjan> hoily you might want to skip the immediately previous logs hth
22:14:24 <shachaf> oerjan: hm, now i wonder whether that would be compatible with being vegetarian
22:34:03 <boily> what logs should I be skipping at?
22:36:02 <oerjan> the #esoteric ones hth
22:36:41 <oerjan> specifically the last handful of lines before you entered hth
22:37:54 <oerjan> boily: i think shachaf is implying that you're doomed anyhow
22:38:12 <boily> I read the part, so I could be prepared skipping it.
22:38:13 <shachaf> i'm implying that you aren't being very helpful
22:38:28 <boily> I shouldn't have read it.
22:38:49 <oerjan> shachaf: you appear to have been right hth
22:40:15 <boily> fungot: please soothe my maimed sanity with something sensible.
22:40:15 <fungot> boily: madam president, the commission fully backs parliament' s report. i can only say that the group of independents for a europe which is at the very least, far from it but will be a positive step. i think, all agree that terrorism is an alarming problem that we currently face. to intervene in this regard, without which this budget vote would not have got any broadcasting time and so it nicely complements the european social
22:42:17 <oerjan> fungot: i think you got cut off
22:42:18 <fungot> oerjan: i find it unfortunate that the commission's proposal is on the table today. a full list of the fnord atrocities. then a republican officer took a stand against this nuclear package.
22:43:24 <oerjan> fungot: so we're still doomed, right
22:43:24 <fungot> oerjan: recommendation 1 of the common organisation of the market by the member states.
22:44:08 <oerjan> recommendation 1: doom
22:44:32 <oerjan> it's the most economically balanced policy
22:45:34 * boily wraps himself in a safety blanket. «vous m'aurez pas!»
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22:50:48 <oerjan> don't worry, the apocalypse isn't ready for public consumption yet
22:51:25 <shachaf> boily: can i cheer you up with the information that the kittens were p. cute dth
22:51:42 <oerjan> several powerpoint representations are still unfinished
22:51:57 <ais523> aren't the "apocalypses" early design documents from Perl 6?
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22:56:35 <shachaf> also i never saw them again
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22:57:36 <boily> I really hope they weren't eaten too.
22:58:57 <boily> speaking of eating, I'm hungry.
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23:02:11 <shachaf> no we just gave them to other people
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23:15:11 * pikhq wonders how many people have tried writing code that is simultaneously valid K&R C, C90, C99, and C11, in any time even remotely recent
23:16:18 <ais523> pikhq: are you allowed to use preprocessor macros?
23:16:23 <ais523> if not, I'm not sure it's possible
23:16:37 <ais523> unless "int main()" is a valid declaration in C99, in which case you could just not use functions
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23:17:22 <pikhq> You are allowed to use functions in C99 with valid non-prototype declarations, so long as they can be declared without reference to a type that's defined in a header.
23:17:32 <pikhq> "int putchar();" is thus perfectly valid.
23:17:54 <pikhq> int main(argc, argv) int argc; char **argv; is also valid.
23:19:54 <pikhq> K&R did also *have* a preprocessor.
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23:20:08 <pikhq> ISO only changed its semantics slightly, but it's still there.
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00:18:46 <pikhq> ais523: Well, I can now answer "it's non-zero".
00:19:30 <ais523> huh, I didn't realise C99 allowed non-prototype declarations
00:20:32 <ais523> C11 didn't change syntax much
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00:20:52 <pikhq> C11 was *mostly* an addition to the libraries.
00:27:05 <pikhq> Which interestingly means that it's not especially hard to port at least *some* old K&R C to C11.
00:32:13 <pikhq> I was not actually expecting it to be as easy to write moderately universal C as it is.
00:32:26 <pikhq> Ends up being a bit weird, but still.
00:33:01 <pikhq> (and limited in functionality if you want to support certain spectacularly low-quality environments. :))
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00:39:54 <fizzie> K&R function declarations are mentioned an "obsolescent feature" both in C99 and C11.
00:40:02 <fizzie> Maybe next century they'll actually drop the support.
00:40:12 <shachaf> Does K&R C have function declarations?
00:41:04 <fizzie> return_type function(); for a non-definition declaration, and return_type function(a, b, c) type a; type c; { ... } for a declaration that is also a definition.
00:41:16 <fizzie> With implicit ints allowed for the return type and the parameter types.
00:41:20 <pikhq> K&R C has function *declarations*, but not prototypes.
00:41:22 <shachaf> OK. So there's no way to specify anything other than the return type.
00:41:44 <pikhq> And in ISO C you're permitted to use such a declaration, but not required.
00:41:45 <shachaf> they should change that twh
00:42:05 <pikhq> C99 does not allow implicit int.
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00:45:28 <fizzie> At least it still lets you do int f(x, y, z, w, a, b, c) int x, y, z, w, a, b, c; { ... } saving you from repeatedly typing the 'int'.
00:45:35 <fizzie> Clearly the K&R style is superior.
00:45:56 <shachaf> The K&R style makes a lot of sense.
00:46:39 <shachaf> int (*f)(); means that (*f)() is an int. So it makes sense that "int f(x)" means that f(x) is an int.
00:47:11 <shachaf> But then you specify "int f(x) char x; { ... }" -- f(x) is an int only for char x.
00:47:30 <shachaf> int f(char x) makes no sense, though. char x isn't even an expression.
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03:56:41 <ais523> oerjan: forever is the monad version of an infinite loop?
03:56:48 <ais523> (I figured that out based on the type)
04:00:04 <oerjan> i was checking if they'd updated it to Applicative instead of Monad
04:01:20 <ais523> wouldn't being a monoid be sufficient (or, well, you don't even need an identity, just associativity)? or is that a different operatoin?
04:02:10 <oerjan> you could make a monoid forever, but it wouldn't have a compatible type
04:03:11 <oerjan> and for those monadic values that are also monoids, it's not necessary the same operation
04:03:28 <oerjan> e.g. it's not the same for list
04:04:54 <shachaf> oerjan: did you see the thing where Applicatives are monoids in the category of endofunctors
04:05:27 <oerjan> i haven't looked at that yet, although edwardk keeps throwing the word day convolution around
04:05:36 <shachaf> (with Day convolution as your monoidal product hth)
04:06:01 <shachaf> it's p. much like regular convolution
04:07:15 <shachaf> Day f g a = exists x y. (f x, g y, x -> y -> a) hth
04:07:18 <oerjan> so what product do you use to make Functors monoids in the category of endofunctors
04:07:37 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
04:07:56 <shachaf> you can get Alternative in two different ways
04:08:02 <ais523> the problem here is that the category of endofunctors is really general
04:08:14 <shachaf> Well, "the category of endofunctors" is underspecified.
04:08:22 <shachaf> Since it's a monoidal category.
04:08:44 <ais523> "monoidal category" normally implies it has some /specific/ monoid
04:09:42 <shachaf> It's a useful concept independently of talking about monoid objects, I think.
04:09:45 <oerjan> shachaf: so can you get every subtype of optics this way
04:10:07 <shachaf> oerjan: can you get any subtype of optics this way twh
04:10:31 <oerjan> well i mean, Applicative <-> Traversal.
04:11:43 <oerjan> please note that i'm not actually engaging my brain here
04:12:05 <ais523> shachaf: oh, the definition I know is that a monoidal category has some operation \otimes on both objects and arrows that is associative, and has an identity object I (and identity arrow id_I), and some coherence rules
04:12:33 <ais523> admittedly, sometimes we come across categories that are monoidal two different ways
04:12:47 <ais523> but normally you assume there's a specific \otimes that you can talk about
04:12:57 <shachaf> The category of endofunctors is monoidal in at least five different ways.
04:13:07 <oerjan> obviously there is a category of ways a category is monoidal hth
04:13:43 <shachaf> Anyway, when people say "monoid" in this context they usually mean a monoid object in a monoidal category.
04:14:30 <shachaf> I.e. some specific object X along with arrows : X ⊗ X -> X and : I -> X
04:14:57 <ais523> right, the concept of monoid objects sort-of passed me by because it isn't something I'm used to having in my categories
04:15:01 <shachaf> (In Set, when you make it a monoidal category using cartesian product, you get the usual notion of a monoid.)
04:16:07 <ais523> Set has an arrow X → X × X, doesn't it? (where × is cartesian product)
04:16:21 <ais523> or have I got that backwards?
04:16:29 <ais523> I'm trying to remember what a cartesian category is
04:16:49 <ais523> (the main theme in my research being categories where you can't do that)
04:17:00 <shachaf> Are you thinking of comonoids here?
04:17:35 <ais523> I'm thinking of the normal model for contraction
04:17:49 <ais523> in programming languages
04:18:03 <ais523> (where contraction is something like \x -> x + x, i.e. a lambda that uses its argument twice or more)
04:18:28 <shachaf> Right. Set isn't a good category to talk about those things in.
04:18:56 <shachaf> A comonoid is an object X along with arrows : X -> X ⊗ X and X -> I satisfying the dual laws to the monoid laws.
04:19:16 <shachaf> In Set (or Hask) every object is a comonoid in exactly one boring way.
04:19:30 <shachaf> But e.g. in linear logic it corresponds to objects that you can duplicate and delete.
04:20:12 <ais523> I'm thinking of substructural categories
04:20:19 <ais523> where you might or might not have each of those two rules independently
04:20:36 <ais523> in particular, I normally use affine categories, where you can delete but not duplicate
04:20:52 <shachaf> Sure, you can talk about cosemigroups and -- copointed sets, I guess?
04:21:26 <shachaf> If you want a puzzle about comonoids, you can solve http://thue.stanford.edu/puzzle.html
04:21:30 <ais523> a pointed set is a set that has one specific element that you can identify
04:21:48 <ais523> so what's a copointed set? a set that has an element from which you can identify any of the others?
04:21:49 <shachaf> I think "copointed set" is probably a bad name.
04:22:13 <shachaf> I was just dualizing "point : I -> X"
04:23:24 <ais523> do you know about the concept of initial and terminal objects?
04:23:50 <ais523> in my case, there isn't just a copoint operator, I is actually terminal
04:23:56 <ais523> i.e. there's exactly one way to delete each object
04:24:24 <shachaf> The trouble with "pointed set" is that it's so lawless.
04:24:35 <shachaf> But you can do better here.
04:24:56 <ais523> anyway these are some of the most basic concepts in category theory, they come up all the time
04:25:17 <ais523> (a category has at most one of each, incidentally, that's pretty easy to prove)
04:25:42 <shachaf> Yes, I've come across initial and terminal objects before. :-)
04:26:07 <ais523> pointing a set is different from this
04:26:19 <ais523> because we're picking out one particular arrow and saying "you can use this to find one particular object"
04:26:30 <ais523> which… from a category-theoretic point of view, doesn't gain you anything
04:26:42 <ais523> because now you have to identify one arrow rather than one object
04:26:56 <ais523> (and a copointed set would be one in which you can delete one particular object, which doesn't seem so useful)
04:27:22 <shachaf> By object do you mean element here?
04:28:05 <ais523> err, sorry, was mixing sets and categories
04:28:15 <shachaf> Why would a copointed set be one in which you can delete one particular element? It gives you an arrow : X -> I
04:28:31 <shachaf> Anyway I don't think "copointed" is the right notion, it's just the first thing that came to mind.
04:28:46 <ais523> I'm trying to figure out what X → I is, categorically
04:29:02 <ais523> in Set, it's a function which takes elements of a particular type and discards them
04:29:54 <ais523> actually, ignoring the return value of a function is very hard in Verity if you still want its side effects
04:30:11 <ais523> you have to assign it to a variable in order to force it, otherwise it doesn't get evaluated at all because call-by-name
04:30:18 <shachaf> If your arrows have side effects you're getting pretty far from any of this.
04:30:30 <shachaf> Anyway I don't quite know what the question is, but I'm sure Chu spaces are the answer.
04:31:09 <ais523> our arrows contain information about their side effects
04:31:42 <ais523> or basically, we're creating an Algol variant with a somewhat ML-like attitude
04:31:55 <ais523> so you can think of everything as being in the same big monad
04:33:31 <shachaf> The other day someone was talking about how instead of talking about "network partitions", people should talk about delayed, dropped, and duplicated packets.
04:33:39 <shachaf> It reminded me of substructural logic.
04:34:30 <ais523> "delayed" isn't one of the normal substructural logic operations
04:35:19 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substructural_type_system talks about affine, relevant, and ordered type systems.
04:37:49 <ais523> oh, discarding /exchange/?
04:38:06 <ais523> gah, this is going to make my future discussions with nominal set theorists awkward
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04:40:36 <ais523> that said, it doesn't interfere with the part of the Campaign for Strict Associators that I didn't remove from the manifesto as being too controversial
04:42:24 <ais523> (the Campaign, stated succintly: I believe that the categories that people use to model programming languages should be those in which (A⊗B)⊗C and A⊗(B⊗C) are not merely isomorphic, but equal)
04:45:47 <shachaf> i,i a strict 2-category with one object
04:46:01 <shachaf> Which categories, for instance?
04:46:46 <ais523> denotational semantics; for example, I use game semantics a bunch, and one thing you have to do there is implement a disjoint union on move names so that you can tell moves apart
04:46:54 <ais523> if you use inl/inr, then your associators aren't strict
04:47:04 <ais523> but if you number the moves and adjust numbers to keep sequence, then they are
04:47:41 <ais523> (e.g. (q+q)+q can become q_ll, q_lr, q_r with the first method, or q_1, q_2, q_3 with the second)
04:48:17 <shachaf> But then you have this global numbering.
04:49:10 <shachaf> I suppose that instead of numbering you could use a different sort of normalization.
04:49:11 <ais523> + basically takes the largest number on the LHS, and adds it to every number on the RHS
04:49:37 <ais523> i.e. q_1,q_2 + q_1 gives you q_1,q_2,q_3; so does q_1 + q_1,q_2
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04:51:15 <ais523> this actually extends all the way into the variable names we use in our output code, it's not just a theoretical point
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07:34:45 <fungot> mroman: madam president, i would like to voice my criticism of the united kingdom, is that, if it arose, to be placed on lightening administrative burdens and costs in these member states so there is the need to legislate in this area near naples? there you are, you say you prefer natural families to homosexual partnerships, you risk being condemned once again, taking a snapshot of reality. the testimony of those north koreans
07:35:07 <mroman> fungot: what north koreans?
07:35:07 <fungot> mroman: fnord president, amending budget 4, the commission has followed up investigations launched by the institutions. all the same, undoubtedly lose some of their employment policies.
07:44:46 <nvd> You know, translating code from Haskell to C++ makes me really miss the list monad
07:45:14 <nvd> I keep going if {for {if {for {if {for {if...
07:45:23 <nvd> (with actual conditions and stuff)
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08:07:11 <ais523> surely the if () is a Maybe, not a List?
08:07:48 <nvd> ais523, the fors make it a list with guards
08:08:03 <nvd> I'm translating code that used the list monad quite heavily
08:09:01 <b_jonas> I'm going to write ugly code.
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08:10:54 <ais523> nvd: hmm, why isn't there a "mixed Maybe and List" monad-like thing
08:11:05 <ais523> a polymorphic >>= that lets you connect a List with a Maybe to get a List
08:11:19 <nvd> :t maybeToList
08:11:40 <nvd> I think you can use that
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08:13:36 <ais523> yes, I assumed it'd be something like that
08:13:53 <ais523> the type theorist in me is disappointed that the resulting [a] can only have 0 or 1 elements
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08:14:06 <ais523> but at this rate I'll end up inventing Agda :-(
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08:26:02 <elliott> nvd: you could do if (...) break; instead
08:26:30 <nvd> elliott, it'd have to be continue rather than break, I think
08:26:55 <nvd> But yes, I could
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08:32:38 <nvd> I'm not personally a huge fan of that pattern
08:34:26 <ais523> I tend to use continue for guards
08:34:35 <ais523> especially in Perl, where it's called "next" instead
08:35:18 <b_jonas> I use next for those in perl, but I almost never use continue in C or C++
08:35:32 <b_jonas> and very rarely use break in loops (but use it in switches of course)
08:35:48 <b_jonas> apparently I have very difficult programming style in C++ and perl
08:36:20 <ais523> well, who know both C and Perl
08:36:30 <b_jonas> yes... most people here don't do perl
08:36:46 <ais523> here, let me find an example
08:37:39 <ais523> https://gitorious.org/intercal/intercal/source/ef74805b817199fefde98ed61bb024683b4fbae0:src/clc-cset.c#L245
08:50:00 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, but that uses return, not continue or goto
08:50:04 <ais523> I decided to sprinkle Perl idioms throughout that code because CLC-INTERCAL is written in IACC which is written in itself, but its bytecode interpreter is written in Perl
08:50:14 <ais523> it looks a lot uglier in C, though
08:56:58 <elliott> nvd: if you don't like that pattern, why did you use it in the haskell?
08:57:12 <nvd> elliott, it looks nicer in Haskell
08:57:35 <elliott> ais523: i'm so glad gitorious is shutting down
08:58:11 <ais523> the alternatives are even worse :-(
08:58:45 <elliott> that's not true, none of the alternatives give up on displaying medium-sized commits and say they're too big to display
08:59:00 <elliott> even traditional gitweb is like ten billion times better
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10:03:02 <mroman> nvd: Did you know that translating from Haskell to C++ is a sin?
10:03:18 <nvd> mroman, yes
10:03:40 <mroman> It's like taking a picture of a good old oil painting
10:03:46 <mroman> then apply some instagram filters to it
10:04:47 <mroman> and then make a screenshot of it
10:04:59 <mroman> use the word-doc preview
10:05:02 <mroman> take a screenshot of it
10:05:09 <mroman> and upload it on imgur for likes
10:05:19 <nvd> Oh, I am fully in agreement
10:05:40 <ais523> mroman: this is missing a wooden table
10:05:51 <b_jonas> mroman: no, you have to photograph the screen showing the word document with a mobile phone too, and maybe add a black and white printer to it
10:10:00 <mroman> What programming languages can be transmitted with international morse code
10:11:05 <ais523> that is not what I'd have said
10:11:15 <ais523> C probably can be, given trigraphs/digraphs
10:11:42 <mroman> but there are parantheses
10:12:16 <ais523> {} and [] are trigraphable I think
10:12:20 <nvd> mroman, C can accept ??< and ??> for {} and ??( and ??) for []
10:12:49 <mroman> there's no <> in ITU morsecode
10:13:45 <ais523> OK, so C would need symbol substitutions
10:13:53 <ais523> you could likewise do substituted INTERCAL
10:13:58 <ais523> or probably nonsubstituted COBOL
10:14:04 <mroman> substitution is cheating
10:14:37 <mroman> BASIC dialects probably work
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10:15:08 <Jafet> Translating Haskell programs to C++ is like replacing a crystal chandelier with a kerosene heater, it does the job ten times faster except it will sometimes explode.
10:15:38 <nvd> Jafet, the explosions give me something fun to do
10:15:42 <nvd> mroman, FORTRAN, maybe?
10:15:42 <scoofy> if haskell is correct, then the translated C++ program should also be correct, no?
10:15:43 <ais523> a kerosene heater seems like it has a rather different job from a crystal chandelier
10:15:45 <mroman> so case-insensitive languages are probably more suited for transmission through morse code
10:15:47 <ais523> you wouldn't hang it from a ceiling
10:15:59 <nvd> scoofy, not if the translation is manual and imperfect
10:16:00 <ais523> scoofy: only if the translation is correct
10:16:47 <scoofy> so if you have a good translator, it won't blow up
10:17:32 <nvd> scoofy, unfortunately, the translator is me
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10:17:58 <ais523> well, if it's being translated by a translator of doom
10:18:03 <ais523> explosions seemed likely
10:18:10 <ais523> (I wanted to allcaps it but that would throw off the keming)
10:18:32 <nvd> scoofy, I'm dealing with the blowing up now
10:19:38 <nvd> scoofy, I wanted to use certain features of the C++ standard library
10:19:43 <nvd> Such as bitsets and vectors
10:19:47 <nvd> Which would be harder in C
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10:34:39 <mroman> C's most prominent feature is the lack of features.
10:35:00 <scoofy> that's an important feature.
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11:21:05 <Jafet> C is lacking in features compared to languages implemented in C
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11:23:22 <boily> C is taoist. it has all the features by not having them.
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11:24:15 <mroman> C is just a syntactic extension of B
11:27:26 <mroman> I should find a language reference for B
11:27:37 <mroman> seeing as links to bell-labs all result in "Object Not Found"
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11:28:30 <callforjudgement> <ais523> mroman: the book I learned compilers from has examples in BCPL
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11:28:54 <ais523> the main interesting features of BCPL is that everything is a pointer-sized int, types don't exist
11:29:02 <ais523> this probably explains implicit int in C
11:32:14 <mroman> It's astonishing how fnord many programming languages are out there
11:32:53 <ais523> (BCPL is the direct ancestor of B)
11:33:04 <mroman> Mesa, Euclid, Turing, Sp/K, CMS-2, JOVIAL ....
11:33:24 <ais523> mroman: anyway, just look at all the BF derivatives we have
11:33:34 <mroman> http://99-bottles-of-beer.net/language-sympl-1167.html
11:33:35 <ais523> then think how much real language designers must outnumber esolang designers
11:35:33 <Jafet> Don't forget the languages that evolve by themselves
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11:35:49 <ais523> I think pretty much every other language requires at least some human input
11:35:55 <ais523> and even Snowflake has to observe the programs it's running
11:40:40 <orin> Most of the newest featurs of C came from compiler-specific extensions and such, I think that's what he meant
11:42:23 <orin> like for example, the inline keyword
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11:44:00 <ais523> inline wasn't really compiler-speciifc
11:44:00 <orin> and people using C++ compilers on C code led to introducing // as a standard comment type
11:44:03 <ais523> most of them supported it
11:44:17 <mroman> http://codepad.org/BS1nkUTx
11:44:22 <mroman> luckily I have a BF derivative generator
11:44:29 <orin> true, in slightly different ways
11:44:52 <mroman> which produces prefix-free strings of course
11:45:01 <b_jonas> mroman: that's a kitty-killer
11:46:28 <b_jonas> in the morning, I was thinking on the bus about whether there's a cpu architecture where the instruction pointer normally goes backwards, that is, after executing an instruction, the next instruction is usually the one adjacent to it on a lower address.
11:46:42 <b_jonas> now I realized this is also a kitty-killer because you can get a bf-derivative from it.
11:47:09 <mroman> http://codepad.org/jLZdvBSv
11:47:21 <mroman> now all I need to do is add a wiki bot to create wiki pages
11:47:40 <b_jonas> though the esolang wiki doesn't seem to list a kcufniarb language
11:47:50 <b_jonas> hmm... would the meaning of brakcets be reversed in that?
11:48:13 * orin wats mroman ーー蟲蟲
11:48:21 <b_jonas> and how about the meaning of less than and greater than?
11:50:02 <ais523> b_jonas: it's been done, probably multiple times
11:50:05 <b_jonas> mroman: change it so it also generates a page title you can use on the wiki when the name of the language isn't valid as a page title
11:50:28 <b_jonas> mroman: in particular, that one you pasted has a # sign, which is invalid in a page title
11:51:14 <b_jonas> mroman: make sure the title doesn't have any of # < > [ ] | { }
11:51:24 <orin> So C11 can be said to be the result of agglomerating the changes made in differnet dialects of C
11:51:55 <mroman> I could just use a-zA-Z obviously
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11:52:24 <b_jonas> mroman: make sure the title doesn't have any ascii control character nor any of # & : / < > [ ] | { }
11:52:47 <b_jonas> mroman: make sure the title doesn't have any ascii control character nor any of # & : % ~ / < > [ ] | { }
11:52:51 <b_jonas> and is at most 255 byte long
11:53:21 <b_jonas> https://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:Page_title tells the details, it's complicated
11:53:22 <mroman> http://codepad.org/HVZEzvVI
11:53:44 <b_jonas> mroman: um, you can still use those in instructions, just not the page title
11:54:27 <mroman> yeah but this way it's morse friendlier
11:56:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Btjzxgquartfrqifjlv]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42832 * 160.85.232.227 * (+366) Created page with "'''btjzxgquartfrqifjlv''' is a brainfuck derivative. It has the same instructions but... <pre> Replace [ with btj Replace ] with zxg Replace + with qua Replace - with ..."
11:57:44 <mroman> he likes to do these kind of things.
11:57:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Btjzxgquartfrqifjlv]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42833&oldid=42832 * B jonas * (+36)
11:58:40 <Jafet> Incidentally, there is a subset of brainfuck that is valid morse code
12:00:08 <b_jonas> mroman: if it's a modulo 256 bf interpreter, you can even output anything with it
12:01:00 <b_jonas> it seems the api is enabled on the esowiki, good: http://esolangs.org/w/api.php?action=query&prop=info&meta=siteinfo&format=xmlfm&siprop=general|namespaces|namespacealiases|interwikimap|specialpagealiases|magicwords
12:01:07 <b_jonas> makes it easy to do automatic queries and edits
12:05:26 <mroman> b_jonas: modulo 256 where the sign is equal to that of the modulus
12:06:17 <b_jonas> mroman: yeah yeah, mathematician's remainder, not C/C++/cpu modulo
12:06:42 <b_jonas> (nor any of the two crazy variants scheme r5rs includes INSTEAD OF any of these two sane ones)
12:07:03 <b_jonas> (that always bugs me... how did they come up with that?)
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12:12:47 <mroman> what variants does r5rs have?
12:13:50 <b_jonas> mroman: one that gives the remainder with the lowest absolute value, and one that behaves different from one of the two sane variants for negative divisors
12:14:04 <b_jonas> I don't quite recall the exact details
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12:24:07 <mroman> "Beside zsh, this is the only golfed program. Burlesque is quite awesome, it has a very large range of different functions, like ro. Sadly there's nothing like the Python [::a] slicing operator. "
12:24:19 <mroman> I'd be damned if Burlesque wouldn't have that
12:24:27 <mroman> I'm pretty certain there's an EveryNth built-in
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12:30:10 <HackEgo> 1221) <mroman_> piece of cake doing this stuff in Burlesque :P [19 lines later] <mroman_> I hate Burlesque :(
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12:42:14 <orin> There should be a version of morse code for vikings.
12:42:22 <orin> A norse morse code.
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13:01:23 <Melvar> > Nothing :: Maybe $ Int -> Int
13:01:25 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Maybe $ Int -> Int’
13:01:25 <lambdabot> In the expression: Nothing :: Maybe $ Int -> Int
13:02:12 <Melvar> > const Nothing :: Int -> Maybe $ Int
13:03:14 <Melvar> Looks like (->) has a lower precedence than ($)?
13:14:50 <orin> haskell has precedence?
13:18:22 <Melvar> orin: In case that was an honest question, yes, it does. One assigns it with fixity declarations.
13:19:41 <orin> if internet memes are accurate, most people would actually expect 25
13:29:51 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:3: parse error on input ‘|’
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13:30:47 <mroman> orin: probably because for humans it's actually more convenient to do arithmetic "in-order"
13:30:50 <fungot> Jafet: i will vote or i will come to the conclusion that parliament and the commission is entitled to safe products and sound information. clear danger maps, which identify the special risks to residents, constitute a negative factor on economic growth in europe, therefore to have more time to apply the parliamentary method, which dates back to the beginning of a gradual abolition of overtime, on the eve of the introduction of
13:31:03 <mroman> rather than perform a look-ahead for operators with higher precedence
13:31:11 <lambdabot> from the context (Num a, Num (a -> b))
13:31:11 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type for ‘e_10707’:
13:32:16 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
13:32:16 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at Top level
13:32:56 <Jafet> > 0x7f & (.&.) 0xf7 & (`showHex` "")
13:33:56 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
13:33:56 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Fractional a => a at Top level
13:34:13 <orin> But. But it worked for 2
13:35:10 <Jafet> mroman: one language natural they use how wonders then
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13:37:17 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Integral b0) arising from a use of ‘^’
13:37:17 <lambdabot> bound by the inferred type of it :: Num a => a at Top level
13:37:45 <orin> There are two different exponent operators?
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13:38:13 <orin> thye could have iuse ^ for xor then
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13:38:37 <b_jonas> orin: (^) and (**) and (^^)
13:38:51 <lambdabot> (Integral b, Num a) => a -> b -> a
13:38:53 <lambdabot> (Fractional a, Integral b) => a -> b -> a
13:39:08 <Jafet> xor is just zipWith (/=), what's the problem?
13:40:26 <orin> ^ why do they need three
13:40:30 <ais523> zipWith works on ints?
13:40:45 <orin> the last one covers all reals anyay
13:40:58 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M374984897116395339918141’
13:41:10 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bits [Bool]) arising from a use of ‘xor’
13:41:10 <lambdabot> In the expression: xor ([] :: [Bool])
13:42:18 <orin> hey that works
13:42:21 <lambdabot> Bool, Int, Int16, Int32, Int64, Int8, Integer, Word, Word16, Word32, Word64, Word8
13:42:44 <Jafet> Huh, where does that instance come from
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13:44:12 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M465181737757271416918296’
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13:45:46 <orin> > xor 3.4 0x8000000000000000
13:45:48 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M788904274569950582318343’
13:45:48 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
13:46:11 <orin> whaaat so I can't flip the sign bit? boooo
13:46:32 <augur> orin: thats definitely not what it says
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13:48:06 <lambdabot> data constructor ‘Chr’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ),
13:48:14 <augur> :t 3.4 80 :: CFloat
13:48:15 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘CFloat’
13:48:15 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘Float’ (imported from Prelude)
13:48:19 <augur> :t 3.4 80 :: Float
13:48:20 <lambdabot> No instance for (Fractional (a0 -> Float))
13:48:20 <lambdabot> (maybe you haven't applied enough arguments to a function?)
13:48:28 <augur> :t xor 3.4 80 :: Float
13:48:29 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bits Float) arising from a use of ‘xor’
13:48:29 <lambdabot> In the expression: (xor 3.4 80 :: Float)
13:49:26 <orin> > shiftL 255 4
13:49:35 <orin> > shiftR 255 4
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13:51:15 <orin> aha. infinite-bit
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13:52:11 <orin> > rotateR (Int16 1) 1
13:52:12 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Int16’
13:52:32 <orin> > rotateR (Word16 1) 1
13:52:34 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Word16’
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13:53:08 <orin> > rotateR (1 :: Int16) 1
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13:54:00 <orin> so I can get all the types from C in Haskell, it just has its own default types.
13:54:53 <orin> > rotateR (0.5 :: Double) 1
13:54:54 <lambdabot> No instance for (Bits Double) arising from a use of ‘rotateR’
13:54:54 <lambdabot> In the expression: rotateR (0.5 :: Double) 1
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13:56:37 <orin> well that wouldn't work in C either
13:57:18 <orin> actually C doesn't even have a rotate operator, unless one was added in C11
13:59:23 <orin> Major flaw for implementing certain cryptographies
14:01:06 <orin> #define rot64(x,n) ((x>>n)|(x<<(64-n)))
14:01:09 <int-e> well, compilers recognize things like uint32_t x; x = (x << 29) | (x >> 3);
14:01:29 <orin> One should hope so!
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14:02:38 <orin> Probably it's a throw back to the PDP-11. Maybe it didn't have a rotate instruction
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14:04:53 <orin> It had an arithmentic shift,but could only rotate by one bit at a time
14:08:33 <int-e> woah. it had a separate add carry operation instead of an add-with-carry? that seems very inconvenient.
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14:14:50 <Jafet> It's technically more flexible, though I can't think of an application
14:15:27 <Jafet> I guess you can implement addc using adc if you have a zero register
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14:30:52 <mroman> I need some volunteers
14:31:10 <mroman> You need to compare the pain of having a matchstick buring on your skin against being stung be a regular bee
14:31:36 <mroman> also the matchstick burning is more likely to leave a scar so do it somewhere where it won't really matter
14:31:52 <ais523> what if you're allergic to bee stings? how are you comparing the bees for regularity?
14:32:02 <ais523> and have you had this study ethically reviewed? I can imagine running into some problems
14:32:17 <mroman> I give a shit about ethics I guess
14:32:23 <ais523> (also, do you know how hard it is to find a honeybee nowadays?)
14:32:37 <mroman> You can also use a wasp
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14:32:54 <mroman> they both have a pain index of 2
14:33:14 <mroman> unless you take the wrong kind of wasps
14:33:16 <int-e> Jafet: it's not. the point of add-with-carry is that it can use the old carry flag and update it as well
14:33:21 <mroman> there are wasps with an index of 3
14:34:02 <int-e> Jafet: so you can use it for implementing a very cheap arbitrary precision addition. I wonder how the PDP people would do that.
14:35:47 <mroman> ais523: As long as participants volunteer I see no reason to consult an ethics commission.
14:36:07 <mroman> Ok... the bee might not volunteer
14:36:13 <ais523> especially because it dies in the process
14:36:18 <mroman> which is why you can use wasps. Wasps keep on living after stinging you
14:36:53 <ais523> when starting my research at the CS department
14:36:59 <ais523> I had to fill out an ethics questionnaire
14:37:23 <mroman> were you involved in killing machines?
14:37:26 <ais523> there was a fast-track questionnaire to identify which projects were obviously safe and didn't need further scrutiny
14:37:28 <mroman> such as killer roboters?
14:37:54 <ais523> it had three questions; I forget one, but the other two were along the lines of "are you going to do any experiments on human subjects?" and "is your research likely to lead to the collapse of society?"
14:38:03 <mroman> 4 is considered to be "traumatically painful"
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14:38:57 <mroman> 3 is "seriously painful"
14:39:39 <Jafet> That is, not humourously painful?
14:40:10 <mroman> If I log website traffic does that count as experiments on human subjects?
14:41:12 <mroman> I wouldn't say that a stapler is less painful than a bee sting
14:41:19 <mroman> I have stapled a finger once
14:41:23 <mroman> and it was pretty painful
14:42:07 <Jafet> That's not an experiment, because you don't have control logs of people who don't visit the website
14:42:09 <ais523> mroman: almost any interaction with humans counts as experimenting on them, but you can normally get those trials approved too
14:42:19 <ais523> it just takes more than a three-question questionnaire
14:42:24 <int-e> Okay, looking at a PDP11 handbook, ADC and SBC seem to be designed to enable 32 bit operations on a 16 bit machine, which barely works (3 instructions each, but resulting carries are wrong).
14:42:33 <mroman> If my research wouldn't lead to the collapse of society I wouldn't be interested in researching it.
14:42:53 <ais523> if your proposed study is "I want to ask humans to pick out faces in images and compare it to the performance of a computer", and the images are relatively innocuous, that'd probably get approved pretty quickly
14:43:14 <Jafet> Society may not like to give you funding for that sort of research, though
14:43:27 <mroman> Jafet: Surely the department of defense will.
14:43:50 <Jafet> Only the american one, which should tell you something about that society
14:44:20 <int-e> (each ==> addition and subtraction)
14:44:23 <mroman> My research is going to destroy facebook. That might lead to a collapse of society.
14:44:52 <mroman> "collapse of society" is very much under-defined.
14:45:00 <orin> Altohugh if it does, I would say society needed to be burnt to the ground
14:45:16 <mroman> ais523: Do they give you a "survival rate"?
14:45:36 <ais523> the questions were very generic
14:45:37 <mroman> If n-% of the human population would survive does it count as a collapse?
14:45:50 <ais523> I guess if there's the slightest chance we might bring about something that potentially qualifies as an apocalypse
14:46:00 <ais523> we're meant to send the research proposal in for further scrutiny
14:46:55 <mroman> Well... research requires sacrifices.
14:47:27 <mroman> Most notably in medicine.
14:47:48 <orin> Hmm... I would say no-one actually needs to (immediately) die or suffer for a study to be problematic.
14:48:07 <mroman> Sure. Long term suffering is also an issue.
14:48:45 <orin> Consider if I proved that people of a particular ethnic group are significantly more intelligent, and isolated the genetic factors causing it.
14:48:57 <mroman> but I'm pretty certain nobody did long term studies about cell phone "radiation" before bringing them to the market
14:49:01 <mroman> these studies are only done now.
14:49:28 <orin> That would not cause any suffering or death , but it could lead to massive societal issues
14:49:47 <ais523> orin: we already know what happens, given the publication of a book that contained one graph that appeared to indicate that
14:50:18 <ais523> that by itself was sufficient to cause problems
14:50:28 <mroman> We haven't even discussed what to do with unborn babies.
14:50:38 <mroman> There's a lot to discuss about genetics/genetic modification etc.
14:51:06 <Jafet> In the absence of conclusive results, I would recommend not providing unborn babies with cellphones
14:51:31 <mroman> That was aimed at testing babies for things like a third chromosome
14:51:48 <mroman> or other conditions such as having only one of a certain kind of chromosome
14:52:14 <mroman> let's not call them babies just yet.
14:52:52 <Jafet> Well, they're like pseudocode programs. Or esowiki language specifications.
14:53:31 <mroman> but... I'm pretty certain if we decide to allow certain research in genetics it will still take 100 years before we are actually capable of doing really crazy stuff with it
14:53:47 <mroman> I don't think anybody will be able to produce humans with wings that can fly within the next 15 years
14:53:54 <orin> My point is virtually any 'hard' results in anything near to eugenics would cause immediate political shitstorms
14:54:11 <ais523> mroman: there's certainly a lot of opposition to germline changes
14:54:20 <ais523> (i.e. any genetic changes that can be inherited)
14:54:25 <Jafet> That's merely because it's physically impossible for human-sized mammals to fly
14:54:37 <mroman> you can make them sub-human size !
14:54:51 <mroman> (which is also a generically inheritable condition)
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14:55:15 <b_jonas> mroman: even that's too large
14:55:25 <orin> You would need giant muscles as well,but it is doable
14:55:35 <b_jonas> hobbits are still too heavy to fly with wings non-magically
14:55:42 <orin> pterodactlys were bigger than huamns
14:55:43 <mroman> Maybe we have cyborgs!
14:56:12 <mroman> we already have exo-skeletons
14:56:22 <Jafet> It may be more efficient to work in the other direction and make sapient flying squirrels.
14:56:26 <mroman> but airplanes aren't cool
14:56:34 <b_jonas> mroman: there are cool airplanes
14:56:51 <mroman> insect sized airplanes are cool
14:56:54 <orin> Like the SU-47 Berkut
14:57:38 <mroman> Obama should use microdrones that can inject deadly poison
14:57:49 <mroman> instead of regular old-school drones that just bomb the whole freaking place
14:59:02 <mroman> they could just use gas that temporarily paralyzes people
14:59:08 <mroman> then go in, shoot the real guy
14:59:56 <mroman> (Assuming such a gas exists. Which it probably does)
15:00:19 <HackEgo> mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function.
15:00:30 <ais523> mroman: well, there was the Russian theatre siege a few years ago
15:00:38 <mroman> `learn_append mroman He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
15:00:40 <HackEgo> Learned 'mroman': mroman is a leading artist in password security (SFW). He also likes black madness. He can design password hashes that are worse than the identity function. He invented the identity function. He's also an artist in unconventional warfare.
15:01:04 <ais523> that's basically what the Russian military did, but many of the hostages died because they didn't admit to /which/ gas they used until some of them had already died fro mside effects
15:01:18 <Jafet> Airplanes work differently at insect size, due to viscosity effects at that scale
15:02:49 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house.
15:04:08 <orin> `learn orin Orin is known as oren. Orin was called Warren by half his teachers.
15:04:10 <HackEgo> Learned 'orin': orin Orin is known as oren. Orin was called Warren by half his teachers.
15:04:58 <Jafet> `learn orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
15:05:00 <HackEgo> Learned 'orin': orin is oren's evil twin, stalking him from the other side of the international date line.
15:06:03 <ais523> you're always on the same side of the date line
15:06:06 <ais523> just possibly 24 hours out
15:08:30 <orin> It would be so much easier if /ə/ had only one spelling
15:09:02 <orin> or maybe a sylabic n?
15:09:43 <orin> it's the same ending as steven or karen
15:10:34 <orin> screw it I'm a touhou character
15:10:52 -!- orin has changed nick to ORen.
15:11:06 -!- ORen has changed nick to ORin.
15:19:11 <lambdabot> LOWI 121450Z VRB03KT CAVOK 30/03 Q1018 NOSIG
15:19:40 <int-e> close to melting... but quite dry, at least.
15:20:25 <lambdabot> LOWW 121450Z 14013KT CAVOK 23/08 Q1020 NOSIG
15:21:05 <lambdabot> EDDB 121450Z 20013KT CAVOK 27/09 Q1010 TEMPO 20015G25KT
15:22:10 <lambdabot> CYYZ 121500Z 27023G31KT 15SM BKN048 14/05 A2985 RMK SC7 SLP110 DENSITY ALT 600FT
15:22:36 <ORin> Blah, a little cold
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15:24:30 <ORin> isn't 14 C cold?
15:26:09 <int-e> slightly chilly, maybe.
15:26:44 <int-e> (meaning it's uncomfortable in a T-shirt)
15:34:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Btjzxgquartfrqifjlv]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42834&oldid=42833 * Esowiki201529A * (+3)
15:40:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wepmlrio]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42835 * Esowiki201529A * (+397) Created page with "{{lowercase}} '''wepmlrio''' is a brainfuck derivative. It has the same instructions but... <pre> Replace [ with w Replace ] with e Replace + with p Replace - with m ..."
15:41:44 <myname> welmprio already sucks from reading that part
15:42:01 <ORin> while end plus minus left right input output
15:45:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Gibberish/JavaScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42836&oldid=42813 * Esowiki201529A * (+91)
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16:02:29 <Jafet> You're just too far up.
16:03:34 <oerjan> but somehow irc is working
16:04:16 -!- aloril_ has quit (Ping timeout: 255 seconds).
16:06:25 <oerjan> restarting router changed nothing
16:09:05 <oerjan> hm some norwegian sites load
16:09:53 <ORin> Did norway recently make a Great Firewall of Norway
16:10:15 <ORin> To prevent scurrilous foreign influence?
16:11:34 <Melvar> oerjan: Is it true that (->) has a lower precedence than ($)?
16:12:23 <oerjan> Melvar: you know, would you mind asking that at a time i've actually got web access to check it?
16:12:34 <Melvar> > Nothing :: Maybe $ Int -> Int
16:12:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Maybe $ Int -> Int’
16:12:35 <lambdabot> In the expression: Nothing :: Maybe $ Int -> Int
16:12:41 <Melvar> > const Nothing :: Int -> Maybe $ Int
16:13:05 <oerjan> Melvar: normally $ isn't a type, this must be something lambdabot has defined
16:13:15 <Melvar> I did. type a $ b = a b
16:13:37 <oerjan> if it has no fixity defined, it will be infixl 9, very high
16:13:52 <Melvar> Are there type fixities separate from value fixities?
16:14:10 <shachaf> oerjan: why don't you install ghc twh
16:14:35 <oerjan> Melvar: fixities go with a scope. if the type is defined in a different scope from the value, it may.
16:15:11 <oerjan> shachaf: i _have_ ghc. but i don't have the version that fixed my documentation request to give the fixity of -> hth
16:17:52 <oerjan> Melvar: or to be precise, fixity goes with a binding. for technical reasons if you define a type and a value with the same name at the top level of a module, a fixity declaration will encompass both.
16:18:23 <oerjan> but if they're in different modules there should be no reason why they need to have the same fixity.
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16:19:07 <Melvar> oerjan: I see, thank you.
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16:20:58 <Melvar> > Nothing :: Maybe $ Int -> Int
16:22:41 <Jafet> > Nothing :: Maybe $ Maybe $ Int
16:23:32 <Jafet> :t Just (+) :: Maybe $ (->) Int $ Int -> Int
16:24:41 <Jafet> @def type a + b = Either a b; type a * b = (a, b); infixl 6 +; infixl 7 *
16:25:19 <Jafet> @def type a + b = Either a b; type a × b = (a, b); infixl 6 +; infixl 7 ×
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16:25:51 <Jafet> > Right (1, 2) :: Int + Int × Int
16:26:01 <Jafet> > Left (1, 2) :: Int × Int + Int
16:29:41 <Jafet> :t undefined :: Int × Int + Int
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16:54:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Btjzxgquartfrqifjlv]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42837&oldid=42834 * 168.99.197.17 * (+94) added morse code versions (and removed random s at end)
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17:19:42 <ORin> need to open file in ed just to use the N,Ms/name/newname/g command
17:20:08 <ORin> rename a varable without reanming same variable in another function
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18:01:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42838&oldid=41512 * Orenwatson * (+261)
18:01:58 <ORin> there we go, updated
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18:06:08 <ORin> I used alpha and beta as metasyntactic variables, because all the latin letters are taken
18:12:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Scrip7]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42839&oldid=42838 * 74.15.57.253 * (+10) html problems
18:16:58 <lambdabot> CYYZ 121808Z 26020G25KT 15SM -SHRA FEW041 OVC052 13/06 A2987 RMK CU2SC6 SLP116
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19:23:05 <ORin> munich have no chance npw
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19:34:03 <ORin> just because the Illuminati is the Illuminati doesn't mean they can't raise the roof c:
19:52:17 <ORin> I should make a playlist of all these memetic songs
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20:33:36 <ORin> never heard of it
20:33:43 <Somelauw> Do people still program esoteric nowadays?
20:38:35 <Somelauw> I managed to program rot13 in brainfuck, but it's 622 chars long.
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22:08:49 <b_jonas> I'm copying files to a directory accessible by another user with rsync -tvz -e "sudo -u" again
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22:44:14 <oerjan> `run sed -i "5invd" bin/slist
22:46:03 <ORin> why did skype send me this email?
22:46:07 <ORin> Aktiveeri krediit uuesti
22:47:14 <ORin> And why did they think I can understand esonian?
22:47:35 <oerjan> hint: they probably didn't hth
22:47:42 * oerjan gets finnish spam all the time
22:48:29 <shachaf> i wish i got finnish spam twh
22:48:56 <shachaf> Yesterday I walked by a group of students and one of them was talking about how they took a class on Finland.
22:49:21 <oerjan> finland, finland, finland.
22:49:27 <shachaf> Turns out you can major in Scandinavian Studies here.
22:49:53 <ORin> My friend is going to finland this summer on some sort of physics... thing
22:50:07 <shachaf> i bet you wish you could study scandinavia
22:50:55 <oerjan> "The 46th IPhO will be held at Mumbai, India from 5 to 12 July 2015." ok not that then
22:51:56 <oerjan> i could have gone to the ipho once, i think it was in poland
22:52:09 <oerjan> but i went to the imo in germany instead
22:53:11 <shachaf> you can't trust physicists hth
22:53:22 <shachaf> especially when tensors are involved
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22:54:24 <ORin> I don't know anything about it exacpt he's going, to finland, with a physics professor
22:54:55 <oerjan> to finland to get physical with a professor, check
22:55:28 -!- SirCmpwn has joined.
22:55:40 <ORin> I haven't been to the IPHO but I have been to the IHOP
22:56:59 <oerjan> i just barely failed to visit the IHOP the half-year i stayed in seattle
22:58:14 <oerjan> i recall being scared away by the fact they had a dress code. although it was probably really lenient i practice...
22:58:58 <shachaf> you were in seattle for a half-year?
23:29:35 -!- Decim has joined.
23:29:48 <Decim> Is there a bot that deciphers short to text
23:33:54 -!- bb010g has joined.
23:40:21 <Decim> Once I get a new laptop
23:40:31 <Decim> Ill finally be my old self again
23:43:21 <fizzie> oerjan: I get Norwegian spam hardly ever. In fact, I don't recall any specific examples at all.
23:44:44 <fizzie> Also I don't know what "Scandinavian Studies" can be.
23:45:16 <oerjan> it's a course where you dissect swedish meatballs and the like
23:45:26 <fizzie> Hm, you can do Scandinavian Studies in London, too.
23:45:34 <fizzie> "Welcome to UCL Scandinavian Studies! We teach and research the language, literature, history, linguistics and visual culture of Denmark, the Faroe Islands, Iceland, Norway and Sweden from medieval times to the present day. Our department is also home to Norvik Press, the UK's only press specialising in Nordic literature and culture."
23:45:54 <shachaf> University of California, London?
23:46:40 <fizzie> Their web page is so confusing, I can't find out what it's short for.
23:46:46 <fizzie> University College London.
23:47:02 <fizzie> That's, like, just a collection of words.
23:47:22 <shachaf> "Universities that offer education and perform research in Scandinavian studies are typically found in North America and Europe. In North America, many activities are coordinated through the Society for the Advancement of Scandinavian Study and its journal, the quarterly Scandinavian Studies."
23:47:32 <shachaf> that's a little unsettling
23:49:01 <fizzie> It's not a conspiracy that aims for global domination, if that's what you are thinking.
23:49:04 <fizzie> I just wanted to make that clear.
23:50:25 <oerjan> yes, very important not to leave any misunderstandings.
23:50:44 * FireFly . o O ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SuspiciouslySpecificDenial )
23:51:19 <nvd> Where did that thought bubble thing come from
23:51:38 <oerjan> i somehow connect it with int-e
23:51:45 <shachaf> nvd: i think it means "i,i" hth
23:51:45 <nvd> oerjan, int-e seems to do it a lot
23:52:05 <shachaf> ski does it a lot. But his thought bubbles are very well formatted.
23:52:07 <FireFly> I mostly associate it with ski
23:52:28 <nvd> I think the name of UCL predates the "college = university" thing
23:53:04 <nvd> Oh maybe not
23:53:53 <nvd> It was originally London University
23:54:22 <nvd> Then, with King's College, became one of the colleges of the larger University of London
23:55:33 <oerjan> shachaf: are you trying to make me believe there's a channel where ski actually talks. admittedly he's on a lot...
23:55:57 <shachaf> oerjan: not lately that i've seen
23:56:14 <shachaf> maybe #haskell but i'm not in there
23:56:22 <fizzie> . ｡ ∘ ° ◦ o ο ○ ◯ O Ο 〇 and so on.
23:56:59 <oerjan> shachaf: he doesn't seem to be in #haskell, only every subchannel in existence
23:57:41 <FireFly> He's also occasionally around in #haskell.se, but then again that place is mostly dead
23:58:00 <fizzie> Is the channel about the set of all channels included in the set of all channels? I guess it must be.
23:58:31 <FireFly> Have you proven the existence of such a set?
00:00:23 -!- doesthiswork has joined.
00:01:21 <FireFly> er, of such a channel* rather
00:03:07 <Decim> Didn't ski die though well I wouldn't know I've only seen him once
00:03:42 -!- heroux has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
00:03:45 <oerjan> ski: are you dead in which case your bouncer is holding up amazingly well hth
00:04:41 <Decim> How do you cure your squid if he has the bends?
00:06:07 <oerjan> Decim: he'll just have to straighten out tentacle it himself
00:06:46 <fizzie> TIL: Something called "Sunset Overdrive" is using my good name. :(
00:07:55 <fizzie> "Fizzie is the corporate mascot of Fizzco, and the primary antagonist of Sunset Overdrive." "Fizzie's voice has been modified to appeal to 'young children and males in their 20's.'" This makes me unhappy.
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00:13:59 * oerjan notes that watching ORin try to guess haskell's syntax in the logs is slightly painful.
00:18:18 -!- hilquias has joined.
00:18:32 <oerjan> http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-05-12 hth
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00:48:03 * oerjan is reminded of someone from years ago
00:51:57 <ORin> > "hello" + "world"
00:51:58 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num [Char]) arising from a use of ‘+’
00:51:58 <lambdabot> In the expression: "hello" + "world"
00:52:02 <ORin> > "hello" . "world"
00:52:03 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘b0 -> c’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
00:52:03 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘(.)’, namely ‘"hello"’
00:52:03 <lambdabot> In the expression: "hello" . "world" Couldn't match expected type ‘a ...
00:52:11 <ORin> > "hello" = "world"
00:52:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘=’
00:52:16 <ORin> > "hello" == "world"
00:52:25 <ORin> > "hello" != "world"
00:52:26 <lambdabot> ‘!’ (imported from Data.Array), ‘M.!’ (imported from Data.Map),
00:52:33 <ORin> > "hello" ++ "world"
00:53:12 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [10]
00:53:13 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘10’
00:53:13 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘[10]’
00:53:22 <oerjan> <ORin> need to open file in ed just to use the N,Ms/name/newname/g command <-- sed -i hth
00:53:48 <ORin> > "hello" ++ "\n"
00:54:06 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [10 :: Char]
00:54:07 <lambdabot> No instance for (Num Char) arising from the literal ‘10’
00:54:07 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘[10 :: Char]’
00:54:25 <ORin> What? but but 10 is '\n'
00:54:40 <oerjan> ORin: haskell :: is _not_ a cast.
00:55:02 <ORin> but it is used as one
00:55:22 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [((Char) 10)]
00:55:23 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘Char’
00:55:23 <lambdabot> ‘Chr’ (imported from Text.PrettyPrint.HughesPJ),
00:55:25 <oerjan> nope. it just says what the type of the expression is. whether that expression _can_ be that type, is a different question.
00:55:33 <ORin> > "hello" ++ [(Chr 10)]
00:55:34 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Char’ with actual type ‘TextDetails’
00:55:34 <lambdabot> In the second argument of ‘(++)’, namely ‘[(Chr 10)]’
00:55:54 <oerjan> > "hello" ++ [toEnum 10]
00:56:25 <oerjan> that's one of the explicit conversion functions
00:56:33 <ORin> toEnum is a weird way to spell (char)
00:56:45 <oerjan> that's because it's more general
00:57:43 <ORin> so they copid perl
00:57:45 <oerjan> i never bother with chr or ord in my own programs because they require an import, so i just use the more general toEnum and fromEnum.
00:58:42 <lambdabot> Could not deduce (Num (Over p f c0 c0 a b))
00:58:42 <lambdabot> from the context (Num (Over p f c c a b),
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00:59:27 <ORin> > ["a" .. "z"]
00:59:29 <lambdabot> arising from the arithmetic sequence ‘"a" .. "z"’
00:59:59 <ORin> Hmm so not quite like perl
01:00:47 <ORin> > [1,2,4 .. 256]
01:00:49 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘..’
01:01:11 <lambdabot> [1,2,4,6,8,10,12,14,16,18,20,22,24,26,28,30,32,34,36,38,40,42,44,46,48,50,52...
01:02:02 <ORin> > [2 ** x : x in [1 .. 8]]
01:02:03 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:13: parse error on input ‘in’
01:02:20 <oerjan> > [2 ^ x | x <- [1 .. 8]]
01:03:15 <ORin> so that's why | isn't or
01:03:31 <oerjan> indeed, | is a "keyword"
01:04:09 <ORin> 4 ** x | x <- 2
01:04:17 <ORin> > 4 ** x | x <- 2
01:04:18 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:8: parse error on input ‘|’
01:04:25 <ORin> > [4 ** x | x <- 2]
01:04:27 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M783320247286381027832586’
01:04:27 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘t0’ is ambiguous
01:04:28 <oerjan> and with | taken, & never was used commonly for anything until lens started making it reverse application
01:05:24 <ORin> > first [2..4]
01:05:25 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘a b’
01:05:33 <ORin> > first [2 .. 4]
01:05:35 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘[]’ with ‘a b’
01:05:35 <lambdabot> <no location info>: can't find file: L.hs
01:06:01 <ORin> > cdr [2 .. 4]
01:06:03 <lambdabot> Perhaps you meant ‘chr’ (imported from Data.Char)
01:06:04 <oerjan> first is something else from Control.Arrow
01:06:46 <ORin> well at least those names make more sense than car and cdr
01:07:04 <ORin> what were they thinking
01:07:28 <oerjan> i think those were from assembly language
01:07:39 <oerjan> content of address register
01:08:04 <ORin> > Int -> Float
01:08:05 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:5: parse error on input ‘->’
01:08:11 <ORin> > x : Int -> Float
01:08:12 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: parse error on input ‘->’
01:08:17 <oerjan> note that head and tail are deprecated for serious use, pattern matching is safer
01:08:34 <oerjan> > head [] -- errors out
01:08:35 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.head: empty list
01:09:11 <oerjan> > case [] of x:_ -> "head is " ++ show x; _ -> "no head"
01:10:09 <lambdabot> Data.Set elemAt :: Int -> Set a -> a
01:10:17 <oerjan> ...that was not helpful.
01:11:11 <oerjan> another conversion function that newbies bitch about needing
01:11:37 <oerjan> > fromIntegral (1 :: Int) :: Float
01:12:00 <ORin> I need it so that the output has a useless .0 in it
01:14:27 <oerjan> i think it uses the banker's rounding rule
01:14:41 <oerjan> ORin: that's recommended behavior for rounding
01:14:52 <oerjan> it makes rounding errors even out more often
01:15:15 <ORin> bah. 0,1,2,3,4 -> down. 5,6,7,8,9 -> up
01:15:38 <oerjan> that's the rule for money in norway too
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01:15:57 <oerjan> but using floating point for money isn't recommended
01:16:20 <ORin> that's that BCD is for
01:16:39 <ORin> well, primarily anyway IIRC
01:17:56 <ORin> > 3.12345 :: Centi
01:17:59 <oerjan> from a fixed point package
01:18:02 <ORin> > 3.12345 :: Deci
01:18:10 <ORin> > 3.12345 :: Myria
01:18:11 <lambdabot> Not in scope: type constructor or class ‘Myria’
01:18:25 <oerjan> myria isn't a metric prefix anyway
01:18:29 <ORin> > 3.123456789 :: Micro
01:18:58 <ORin> > 3.123456789123 :: Nano
01:19:40 <oerjan> there's probably some notation for giving arbitrary precision but i've forgotten it
01:20:39 <ORin> > printf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567
01:20:41 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M3328553923042570177738’
01:20:41 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
01:21:05 <ORin> That error message is very unyhelpful
01:21:18 <ORin> > printf "Hello world"
01:21:19 <lambdabot> arising from a use of ‘show_M7421556609422406871750’
01:21:19 <lambdabot> The type variable ‘a0’ is ambiguous
01:21:21 <oerjan> printf needs a lot of type annotation when used like that
01:21:36 <oerjan> > printf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567 :: String
01:21:58 <ORin> > sprintf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567
01:22:00 <lambdabot> ‘printf’ (imported from Text.Printf),
01:22:17 <oerjan> printf is overloaded so it can be used both ways
01:22:28 <ORin> how is :: not a cast again then
01:22:55 <oerjan> because it chooses a type, but it doesn't convert one type to another
01:24:16 <oerjan> > printf "%f Hello %d world" 4.5 567 :: IO () -- this would work imperatively if lambdabot allowed running IO actions
01:25:43 <ORin> sscanf "345" "%d"
01:25:49 <ORin> > sscanf "345" "%d"
01:25:51 <lambdabot> ‘scanl’ (imported from Data.List),
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01:26:01 <ORin> > scanl "345" "%d"
01:26:02 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘[Char] -> a -> [Char]’
01:26:02 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘scanl’, namely ‘"345"’
01:26:11 <oerjan> i haven't seen scanf anywhere commonly used
01:26:28 <oerjan> scanl is something completely different
01:26:41 <oerjan> > read "345" :: Integer
01:26:55 <ORin> > strtol "345"
01:27:18 <oerjan> > read "345" :: Double
01:27:27 <ORin> > read "345" :: String
01:27:28 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
01:27:35 <ORin> > read "345" :: [Char]
01:27:37 <lambdabot> "*Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
01:28:26 <oerjan> > read "\"345\"" :: String
01:28:44 <oerjan> it does the opposite of show, so you need the quotes
01:28:57 <ORin> > read "345.0 78 \"jakarta\"" :: [Int, Double, String]
01:28:58 <lambdabot> Expected a type, but ‘'[Int, Double, String]’ has kind ‘[*]’
01:28:58 <lambdabot> In an expression type signature: '[Int, Double, String]
01:29:37 <ORin> oh, lists are homogenous?
01:29:57 <oerjan> but that read won't work either
01:30:28 <oerjan> > read "(345.0, 78, \"jakarta\")" :: (Int, Double, String)
01:30:30 <lambdabot> *Exception: Prelude.read: no parse
01:30:46 <oerjan> > read "(345.0, 78, \"jakarta\")" :: (Double, Int, String)
01:31:41 <oerjan> haskell distinguishes between homogeneous lists and nonhomogeneous tuples
01:33:04 <oerjan> tuples with many elements are a bit of an antipattern, and not that well supported.
01:34:28 <ORin> [45,75.0,'f',"foo"]
01:34:34 <ORin> > [45,75.0,'f',"foo"]
01:34:36 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Char’ with actual type ‘[Char]’
01:34:36 <lambdabot> In the expression: [45, 75.0, 'f', "foo"]
01:35:06 <ORin> > ['f',"foo"] :: [Either Char String]
01:35:08 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘Either Char String’
01:35:53 <oerjan> Either doesn't do any silent conversion either
01:36:06 <oerjan> > [Left 'f', Right "foo"] :: [Either Char String]
01:37:39 <oerjan> many newbies pass through a stage where they want heterogeneous lists
01:38:40 <ORin> they're kind of an idiom in a lot of languages
01:38:59 <oerjan> thing is, it's usually due to an X/Y problem: unless you're doing hideously advanced stuff there's a simpler haskell way without them.
01:39:21 <oerjan> or at least a more typesafe one
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03:45:54 <tswett> You know what I want to create?
03:46:00 <tswett> The Online Encyclopedia of Real Numbers.
03:46:19 <tswett> Of course, there are uncountably many real numbers. But that hasn't stopped OEIS.
03:48:43 <oerjan> there is already the inverse symbolic calculator
03:49:02 <oerjan> it might have some gaps hth
03:49:22 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure it'll have to be the Online Encyclopedia of Computable Numbers.
03:49:43 <pikhq> It's kinda hard to index the non-computables.
03:51:50 <tswett> Well, the OEIS doesn't claim to contain only computable sequences.
03:52:46 <ORin> thare are non-computable integers too
03:53:06 <ORin> (for one meaning of "are")
03:53:32 <tswett> There are non-computable integer expressions. There are not non-computable integers.
03:53:41 <tswett> Any integer small enough to fit inside a computer program is computable.
03:53:55 <pikhq> Any integer is computable.
03:54:12 <pikhq> By the reasonably definition of 'computable', 'integers', and 'are'.
03:54:34 <ORin> and computer memory is a finite resource
03:54:37 <oerjan> ah but you cleverly forgot to define "any" hth
03:54:54 <Jafet> Well, there are the non-standard integers
03:55:25 <ORin> you mean like ...111110?
03:55:38 <pikhq> ORin: Not in the definition of "computable".
03:56:23 <ORin> YOUR definition of computable which presumably isn't satisfied by any um, computer
03:56:26 <tswett> When pikhq says "any", they're saying that there exists an integer which is computable.
03:57:34 <pikhq> ORin: The definition of computable is not satisfied by any computer, yes.
03:57:44 <tswett> I think that's it's theoretically possible to explicitly define a non-standard integer.
03:57:45 <FireFly> If you can define an uncomputable number, you could presumably still meaningfully index it
03:57:57 <tswett> I will now pretty much do so.
03:58:01 <pikhq> I will say something stronger, though. For all integers x, x is computable.
03:58:28 <pikhq> That is to say, there exists an algorithm which will compute x.
03:58:34 <elliott> it's only computable if you can do it with an original ibm pc. this is how theory works
03:59:05 <Jafet> If you use a mainframe does that make it supercomputable?
03:59:44 <tswett> Let P be a predicate on the natural numbers, defined in the language of second-order arithmetic, such that P is not satisfied by any natural number, but ZFC does not prove that P is not satisfied by any natural number.
04:00:11 <tswett> Perform the Henkin construction on the theory ZFC + "there exists a natural number satisfying P". (This can be done in an explicitly definable manner.)
04:00:27 <ORin> computable should have different definitions when dealing with abstract algorithms, than when dealing with the tuple of (algorithm, arguments)
04:00:59 <tswett> Then the witness of the statement "there exists a natural number satisfying P" is a non-standard integer.
04:01:01 <elliott> can you please refrain from offering strong opinions on something you clearly don't even know the definition of...
04:01:10 <elliott> "perform the henkin construction" sounds like /such/ mathbabble
04:01:17 <elliott> fakest real thing I've ever heard
04:01:37 <ORin> when you have also the arguments, it is then possible to prove that no computer can be built which can carry it to completion
04:02:00 <Jafet> Set the henkin drive to negative ten parsecs
04:02:07 <elliott> i don't know why you think any of this is relevant to theoretical CS
04:02:54 <elliott> i mean unless you're going to go all finitist and say that huge integers don't exist in the first place because the universe can't fit the paper to write down their digits on
04:03:08 <ORin> It is relevant to thw practical problem of creating a database of computable numbers?
04:03:13 <elliott> which is more defensible than introducing weird arbitrary limits just because the word "computer" pops up
04:04:14 <Jafet> It's easy to make a database of computable numbers, just throw away all the digits and answer "yes, it's computable"
04:04:16 <elliott> such a database could easily contain an integer that can trivially be computed but not in this universe
04:04:21 <elliott> you just include the definition
04:04:24 <Jafet> "It's also NUMBERWANG"
04:04:36 <elliott> (but a database of "computable numbers" is rather unlikely to include any integers)
04:04:42 <elliott> (or rationals, for that matter)
04:04:47 <elliott> (except as trivial examples)
04:05:34 <ORin> I don't think that every integer can have a definition which can be stored.
04:05:53 <tswett> True, if you mean "stored in the universe".
04:06:01 <tswett> Mathematicians don't tend to care about the physical limits of the universe.
04:06:13 <tswett> The word "computable" is defined in a way which disregards the physical limits of the universe.
04:06:20 <ORin> I don't know of any other universe I can store things in
04:06:38 <tswett> /topic Disregard the physical limits of the universe
04:07:45 <elliott> btw how do you define "computable in this universe" 'cuz you're never gonna query every digit of a computable real
04:08:00 <elliott> "any digit can be computed in reasonable time on a reasonable computer"? "the early digits can be"?
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04:08:13 <tswett> Remind me one of these days to study "the ultrafinitistic category".
04:08:13 <elliott> ...don't actually answer that...
04:08:57 <tswett> That is, the category whose objects are sets of finite sequences of symbols from the alphabet {A, B}, and whose morphisms are functions whose output length is bounded by a polynomial function of the input length.
04:09:11 <ORin> Most reals aren't computable by a practical defintion. That's why we use floating point
04:09:38 <elliott> the pain levels are approaching physical here, ORin
04:09:44 <elliott> can you please like... google "computable number" or something
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04:10:50 <ORin> Well I'm explicitly saying "parctical definition"... form now on when I say computable I will mean on a turing machine with unbounded time and space, kay
04:11:54 <pikhq> It is important to remember that we don't care about practicality. Even less so than most theoreticians.
04:12:00 <elliott> ok but why do you think this "practical definition" is relevant to the topic that was being discussed at all
04:12:10 <pikhq> Brainfuck is too mainstream.
04:12:24 <elliott> it's so far off from the goal of making a database of interesting real numbers that it's hard to even parse it in that context
04:12:32 <ORin> Because of the idea of making a database similar to OEIS
04:12:52 <pikhq> I'm pretty sure OEIS includes some sequences that aren't practical to compute all of.
04:13:27 <elliott> it's not like uncountability matters for making a finite subset of anyway........
04:13:32 <ORin> But I'm talking about mathematicalobjects where it isn't even practical to define them
04:13:47 <elliott> ok, hint: possibly-infinite sequences of integers are isomorphic to the real numbers
04:14:04 <elliott> OEIS-for-reals has to care about floating point or whatever exactly as much as OEIS does
04:14:05 <tswett> http://oeis.org/search?q=busy+beaver
04:14:25 <elliott> the analogy for the OEIS busy beaver entry would be chaitin's omega, I suppose
04:14:30 <elliott> with the known digits for some formalism included
04:14:42 <elliott> and that's not computable even if you have as many universes as you want...
04:14:50 <elliott> (ok, as long as church-turing holds in all of them)
04:15:46 <FireFly> The 'hard' tag on OEIS is specifically for sequences where it is hard to find new entries, so..
04:15:58 <ORin> Right, So. Chaitin's omega can't be computed. ORin hypothesized number, there is no algorithm which can ever be written.
04:16:25 <elliott> chaitin's omega doesn't have a computable algorithm either
04:16:31 <elliott> that's kind of the point. it's not computable by a turing machine
04:17:05 <pikhq> It is the canonical example of a non-computable number.
04:17:08 <elliott> Each halting probability is a normal and transcendental real number that is not computable, which means that there is no algorithm to compute its digits. Indeed, each halting probability is Martin-Löf random, meaning there is not even any algorithm which can reliably guess its digits.
04:17:58 <ORin> er, sorry I messed up there.
04:18:27 <ORin> "there is no defintion which can be written" is what I wsas getting at before
04:18:49 <elliott> ok, yes, undefinable real numbers are a thing
04:19:00 <elliott> (and far scarier to think about than uncomputable imo)
04:19:12 <elliott> yeah, such an encyclopedia would never be able to include undefinable numbers
04:19:16 <elliott> but computability isn't an obstacle
04:19:31 <elliott> also, what counts as "undefinable" depends on what you're writing the definitions in, of course
04:20:03 <elliott> thankfully, since the answer to any question we ask can never be an undefinable number (because our question defines it), they're completely uninteresting
04:20:15 <elliott> basically all just completely random juk as far as we're concerned
04:20:39 <elliott> they are the real numbers most likely to keep you awake at night thinking about them though
04:25:00 <ORin> Ok, how about this then. The "unthinkable numbers" are those where a defintion cannot be written, or possibly, cannot be fully understood. This includes undefinable numbers, but also includes many definable ones, because the shortest definitions of such, are too long for a human's lifetime.
04:25:39 <elliott> what was your point again >_>
04:26:15 <ORin> Eh that last one was rather pointless actually. But fun to think about
04:26:29 <tswett> Reminds me of the "intuitive definition" of a non-standard number given here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_set_theory
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04:27:13 <tswett> A standard number is one that someone, somewhere, has specifically thought of or will specifically think of.
04:27:21 <tswett> All the other numbers are non-standard.
04:27:43 <elliott> sweet, every time some nerd tries to tell me about a non-standard number I can just think about it and instantly prove them wrong
04:28:14 <ORin> Wait how would they tell you about it?
04:28:43 <elliott> by talking about a model that has a non-standard number in it
04:29:22 <tswett> Of course, that non-standard number I just defined (up to detail) isn't actually a number at all.
04:29:48 <elliott> everyone thinks things are the same as their definitions and then you find out about models and just cry forever :(
04:30:47 <ORin> uh. I'm pretty sure they aren't, primarily because you can define things differently
04:31:29 <ORin> pi is the area of unit circle. Or is it the ratio of diameter and perimeter?
04:31:41 <elliott> I mean, people see the Peano defintion of the naturals and assume that there are no naturals that aren't of the form SSS...Z, and you can even prove it.
04:31:54 <elliott> but there are realisations of the Peano axioms where that isn't true.
04:32:07 <tswett> I think it's kinda funny, I think it's kinda sad. The dreams in which it turns out that mathematical contradictions are, in fact, true, and so not only does nothing exist, but nothing ever could have existed, not even hypothetically, are the best I've ever had.
04:32:09 <elliott> I think the existence of non-standard models is very surprising to most people.
04:32:29 <tswett> ORin: pi is both of those things, as it happens.
04:32:41 <elliott> I think the prior tendency is to assume that any consistent theory has one standard model, and to identify that model with the theory.
04:32:52 <elliott> pretty sure that's how I thought of things before
04:33:08 <tswett> The way I see it is that first-order Peano arithmetic is merely an attempt at approximating second-order Peano arithmetic.
04:33:15 <elliott> I feel like eve mathematicians act like this is true a lot of the time by saying things that only make sense if you identify a theory with its standard model
04:33:23 <elliott> in the way they phrase proofs and stuff
04:33:25 <tswett> It's a good attempt, but not perfect.
04:34:02 <tswett> Here, let me spout an unsolicited opinion.
04:34:48 <tswett> I don't consider "a set of real numbers" to be a meaningful notion in (mathematical) reality.
04:35:22 <tswett> Anyway, I should go to bed a couple hours ago.
04:39:13 <ORin> great now i will spend an hour trying to figure out
04:53:36 <ORin> agh. there is no undefinable number which is closest to x, for any definable x
04:55:20 <ORin> but neither can
04:57:16 <ORin> there be a undefinable number which is furthest away
05:05:36 <ORin> any definition of a number, whether meta on the set of definable numbers or not, puts that number into said set.
05:09:24 <ORin> meaning that you really can't touch them
05:11:38 <elliott> hint: if you talk about "the undefinable number which is ...", you've already lost.
05:11:57 <elliott> see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berry_paradox
05:11:59 <ORin> A model of the real numbers where the undefinable numbers are missing, rearranged or otherwise messed, is indistinguishable from the standard one
05:12:19 <elliott> uhhhh, not so sure about that...
05:12:27 <elliott> note that the definable numbers are countable
05:12:38 <elliott> the reals are most certainly not countable, so you're doing heavy surgery there
05:13:21 <ORin> But how would one devise a test?
05:13:48 <elliott> what is even your proposal for that model?
05:13:57 <elliott> can you define one and prove it satisfies the axioms?
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05:15:43 <ORin> they can't be rearranged
05:16:23 <elliott> I mean... a formal definition. :)
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05:19:27 <elliott> remember that you cannot define undefinable numbers from within the theory.
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05:20:04 <elliott> if you could define the set of undefinable numbers, you could define an undefinable number by, e.g. just picking one arbitrarily. (axiom of choice!!11)
05:20:25 <elliott> you can do it "a level up", though
05:21:38 <shachaf> How can you pick one arbitrarily?
05:21:40 <ORin> So I can't define the set of definable numbers either
05:22:55 <ORin> shachaf: Not sure about that one
05:24:03 <ORin> Right, it's an axiom that I can do it, but I don't know how to do it.
05:24:22 <elliott> 're talking about undefinable reals, nobody gets to call constructivism
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05:26:13 <shachaf> I'm not sure I follow. Maybe I don't understand what an undefinable number is.
05:26:15 <ORin> I guess I can say "I summon x from the set S, let it be chosen"
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05:26:36 <shachaf> Is the set of definable numbers also undefinable in this context?
05:26:55 <ORin> Uh. I'm not sure actually
05:26:58 <elliott> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definable_real_number
05:27:27 <elliott> okay, https://mathoverflow.net/questions/44102/is-the-analysis-as-taught-in-universities-in-fact-the-analysis-of-definable-numb/44129#44129 might be better.
05:27:41 <ORin> Presumably we can apply the predicate definable to other math objects too
05:29:08 <ORin> we need a model for it
05:29:11 <elliott> anyway, no, you can't define (un)definable numbers in the theory you're talking about.
05:29:22 <elliott> it is a meta-level concept
05:29:30 <elliott> just like consistency or whatever
05:30:08 <elliott> ORin: sure, uncountable things
05:30:15 <elliott> in the end it's just the fact that the set of descriptions is countable
05:31:20 <ORin> so the set of definable obj does not include itself?
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05:57:51 <b_jonas> this book, published in the 1990s, doesn't have a publication date printed in it. I don't understand why. would it cost too much for them to add one? would it go against their sacred traditions? are they affraid people won't buy the book if it's more than two years old?
05:58:13 <b_jonas> it has an isbn, and library catalogs list the date of the book variously as "1996", "1996?", and "2003"
05:58:18 <shachaf> b_jonas: The real question is why papers never have a date written on them.
05:58:57 <b_jonas> shachaf: that's because you usually see preprint drafts. the published papers usually have a date.
05:59:10 <shachaf> That might be an explanation.
05:59:15 <b_jonas> luckily for papers it's usually easy to find out the date, because they're indexed well
05:59:46 <b_jonas> I can sort of understand no date for 18th century books, when they didn't add _any_ info about the publisher,
05:59:55 <b_jonas> or tell who the translator or illustrator is.
06:01:08 <b_jonas> but this book, it's a 20the century book, it has a colophon page telling the publisher, the translator, the cover illustrator, and on the back it has a list of other books published in the same series
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06:16:18 <b_jonas> shachaf: ''Kalevala'', Talentum Diákkönyvtár Sorozat, (1996?) Akkord kiadó, ISBN 9638396652, abridged edition, translator Rácz István, preface by Outi Karanko.
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10:16:51 <fizzie> b_jonas: Why are you reading The Kalevala?
10:19:20 <b_jonas> fizzie: dunno, why not? I might not read that translation though. I'll have to find copies of perhaps all four modern translations and figure out which one I prefer and read only that.
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10:32:06 <fizzie> b_jonas: You should just read the Don Rosa version, it's a lot shorter.
10:32:22 <fizzie> fungot: Are you for or against this net neutrality thing?
10:32:22 <fungot> fizzie: the first part remaining intact. the council leapt into the breach, adopting its common position, nor by the house i met a group called the bilderberg group. this group of people wishing to take a number of countries have concluded between 25 and 28.
10:32:46 <fizzie> fungot: Are you quite sure you're not turning into a conspiracy theorist?
10:32:46 <fungot> fizzie: the willockx report is the role of echo in the other language versions too. ( parliament gave its approval for these potentially disastrous plans to go forward. this topic has been given: parliament is well aware, ladies and gentlemen, i will reply successively to the different legal systems, in which the european union
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11:43:30 <mroman> A trade-off for these advantages of the modern human pelvis is that childbirth is more difficult and dangerous than in most mammals, especially given the larger head size of human babies compared to other primates.
11:43:57 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
11:54:11 <Melvar> mroman: I know a guy who has complained loudly (but not seriously) about some primordial fish deciding to put its whatever-hole behind its rear fins instead of in front for this reason.
11:55:29 <mroman> I just find it very unusual for evolution to evolve in a way that makes producing offspring more dangerous
11:55:57 <mroman> because it doesn't really sound like an advantage that would make these kind of mutations survive better.
11:56:02 <Melvar> Tradeoffs and changing costs.
11:58:35 <Melvar> Particularly, if the thing is helps the offspring you do produce to survive, this may outweigh being restricted to fewer. May.
12:02:33 <mroman> or it is an evolutionary mismatch
12:02:52 <mroman> since evolution isn't really goal and/or future oriented these things can happen
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12:03:50 <b_jonas> fungot, what's a bivector?
12:03:50 <fungot> b_jonas: mr president, mrs fnord. fifth aspect: while taking account of our will to resolve their problem. it preserves the four pillar structure and the implementation of the action plan for the return of the golan heights are illegal, are marginalised, living in a different light, it is a good example in the care sector also risen in other member states.
12:04:12 <b_jonas> fungot: is it some crazy physicist thing, or some crazy type theory computer science thing?
12:04:13 <fungot> b_jonas: it is with the presidency. let me make it clear before the end of business on the other hand, we do not even comply with the guidelines which we discussed this week, as the house, has voted today without the services of such an important debate on competition this morning, on behalf of the socialist group has finally decided to allocate ecu 200m to this task, and also in order to break the taboos. we have talked about,
12:04:15 <mroman> a vector that points into two directions?
12:05:21 <b_jonas> nah, apparently it's just an antisymmetric 2-0-tensor or something
12:05:35 <b_jonas> so yes, one that points into two directions
12:07:30 <b_jonas> so physicist nonsense, not type theory one
12:08:17 <b_jonas> but maybe haskell people have a different object called the same, one that's real simple, because it's just a bimorphism in the bicategory of Idunno what
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12:48:11 <int-e> Ah, assumptions, the Foglios surprised me once again...
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13:00:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42850&oldid=42849 * SuperJedi224 * (+242)
13:00:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42851&oldid=42850 * SuperJedi224 * (+19) /* Commands */
13:05:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42852&oldid=42851 * SuperJedi224 * (+51) /* Commands */
13:11:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42853&oldid=42852 * SuperJedi224 * (-219) /* Commands */
13:11:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42854&oldid=42853 * SuperJedi224 * (+16) /* Commands */
13:13:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42855&oldid=42854 * SuperJedi224 * (+4) /* Commands */
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13:49:24 <mroman> what the hell is wrong with Esowiki201529A
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13:52:40 <mroman> He didn't even bother to change the text o_O
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14:57:05 <ORin> I don't think I like the modern human pelvis
14:57:20 <ORin> the bones look alll wonky
14:57:25 <nvd> It has its downsides, certainly
15:00:57 <ORin> Also, I bet another design wouldn't requre me to probably need a new hip when I'm 60
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15:58:06 <impomatic_> Anyone interested in CROBOTS? There's a 30th anniversary tournament in November http://crobots.deepthought.it/home.php?page=tournament2015&link=2
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16:01:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Wepmlrio]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42856&oldid=42835 * 168.99.197.17 * (+47) morse code, removed s
16:06:42 <nvd> impomatic_, ooh, that looks interesting
16:09:48 <impomatic_> I've been meaning to give it a go for years.
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17:01:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42857&oldid=42855 * 168.99.197.17 * (+84) implemented h(alt) and n(ewline) commands
17:02:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42858&oldid=42857 * 168.99.197.17 * (-16) /* A Java Interpreter */ Removed excess braces, following convention created by implementation for the command e.
17:04:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42859&oldid=42858 * 168.99.197.17 * (+13) sp
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18:37:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42860&oldid=42859 * 72.74.32.143 * (-104) /* Commands */
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20:12:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42861&oldid=42765 * SuperJedi224 * (+18) /* M */
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21:09:58 <ORin> Hey yorick is your name copied from hamlet that guy who died?
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21:11:11 <shachaf> "that guy who died" isn't very descriptive hth
21:11:35 <ais523> don't most of the characters in hamlet end up dying?
21:11:45 <olsner> isn't yorick the skull?
21:11:49 <ORin> That's literally all I know about the yorick from hamlet
21:12:39 <ORin> everyone dies in romeo and juliet too.
21:12:56 <ais523> ISTR some famous musician bequeathed his skull to the Royal Shakespeare Company, with a request that it be used to play the part of Yorick
21:13:07 <ais523> and apparently they actually did so at least once (not sure if they do it every time)
21:13:21 <ais523> err, perhaps composer rather than musician
21:14:29 <shachaf> I would think that a composer would count as a musician.
21:15:09 <olsner> I've also heard of the guy who donated his skull
21:15:12 <ais523> perhaps, the word's more commonly used for people who read music than write it, though
21:15:29 <ais523> (and play it, but "read" is still technically correct and makes the sentence look nicer)
21:15:30 <HackEgo> 379) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both th
21:17:05 <shachaf> What good is a quote so long it won't fit in a line of IRC?
21:18:06 <ais523> we need to connect HackEgo to a server with a shorter name
21:18:19 <ais523> although "verne.freenode.net" is probably one of the shortest
21:18:31 <ais523> it's which server that you're connected to that matters
21:18:36 <ais523> not which server it's connected to
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21:35:01 <ORin> so maybe something like a@43nt30.tk would be better?
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22:11:07 * boily pökes oerjan in the diæresis
22:15:11 <oerjan> my name has no diæresis hthoily
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22:54:48 <Phantom_Hoover> sometimes i think the argot on this channel has gone too far
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22:56:38 <FireFly> fungot: what do you think about the matter?
22:56:38 <fungot> FireFly: mr president, the treaty of amsterdam, that whatever the majority that is required is reciprocity between the pillars. i share that view.
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23:02:20 <oerjan> słashes are fine, especially when słashbuckling
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23:17:43 <oerjan> edwardk: so does https://git.haskell.org/ghc.git/commitdiff/130e93aab220bdf14d08028771f83df210da340b mean you can finally get instances for (,) :: Constraint -> Constraint -> Constraint ?
23:18:05 <oerjan> presumably you need to import it from GHC.Classes
23:19:40 <oerjan> hm but it's not mentioned in the export list. confusing.
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23:33:15 <oerjan> boily: i have no idea what Phantom_Hoover means either
23:34:03 <Phantom_Hoover> perhaps you should questionirth me and search the logs??
23:34:53 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: i am sorry you do _not_ get to use it with "should" hth
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23:49:10 <shachaf> oerjan: i tried to figure out what "irth" stood for for a while tdnh
23:52:21 <FireFly> irth is what you reply if someone tells you to rtfm hth
23:53:54 <shachaf> run into any exciting abstractions lately?
23:54:12 * oerjan swats FireFly -----###
23:54:53 <oerjan> shachaf: just ran him into an exciting abstraction hth
23:55:06 <oerjan> also, it had been too long
23:56:10 <FireFly> shachaf: I'm not a person of exciting abstractions, I'm afraid :(
23:57:06 <shachaf> what sort of exciting things have you run into, then
23:57:22 <shachaf> did you ride any good trains?
23:58:21 <boily> oerjan: johansen???
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00:00:27 <boily> oerjan: johansen???????? I thought it was sørensen.
00:00:28 -!- function has joined.
00:00:31 * oerjan starts wondering if boily has done a /whois in his life
00:01:03 <oerjan> boily: i am pretty sure i corrected that miscomprehension on a previous occasion hth
00:01:04 <FireFly> I ran a mediocre X60 train recently
00:01:13 <boily> I may have. never got the hang of it, really.
00:01:18 <ais523> oerjan: well, people have a tendency to lie in /whois
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00:01:25 <boily> I think I missed the fix hth.
00:01:39 <oerjan> ais523: if you say so, Mr. this
00:01:54 <FireFly> shachaf: what fascinating subjects should I learn about?
00:02:04 <shachaf> oerjan: this does not help
00:02:25 <shachaf> FireFly: If you like trains, you can join #trains.
00:03:03 <oerjan> shachaf: what does not help?
00:03:33 <shachaf> FireFly: What sort of subjects do you already know about?
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00:04:37 <oerjan> ais523: it'd be a little like if you'd write Alex T. Carpenter
00:04:40 <FireFly> It would be quite a lot to enumerate all subjects
00:04:51 <shachaf> Just enumerate the fascinating ones, then.
00:05:22 <oerjan> nah just skip straight to the first boring one
00:05:22 <FireFly> Has lens gotten any new mindbending typeclasses lately?
00:06:05 <shachaf> watch it with words that start and end with h hth
00:06:19 <shachaf> ais523: Speaking of fascinating subjects, did you ever say anything about Chu spaces?
00:06:39 <ais523> I'm pretty sure /someone/ did but I don't think it was me
00:06:44 <HackEgo> 382) <fungot> elliott: i have yet to demonstrate that the sml community has less productive power than the real chunk of meat. \ 639) <itidus20> if only alonzo church would have anticipated the computer terminal... <zzo38> itidus20: What do you think it would be if he did so? <itidus20> i just plucked his name at random [...] <oerjan> if only the
00:07:06 <ais523> not in the qdb, though
00:07:18 <ais523> unless there was a nearby punctuation mark
00:07:18 <HackEgo> A Chu space is just a matrix. Taneb invented them, then Chu stole his invention.
00:07:33 <HackEgo> Tanebventions include D-modules, Chu spaces, automatic squirrel feeders, the torus, Stephen Wolfram, Go, weetoflakes, persistence, and this sentence.
00:07:38 <ais523> that's where I remember seeing it
00:07:53 <HackEgo> Go is a common verbal game programming language invented by the Germanic Taneb tribes in the strategic territories of East Asia.
00:08:05 <shachaf> Chu spaces are pretty great.
00:08:12 <oerjan> `slashlearn hmph/His Master's Phonetic Hmph
00:08:17 <shachaf> If you like linear logic, I you'd surely like Chu spaces?
00:08:47 <ais523> I don't really like linear logic in general, more just fragments of it
00:08:52 <shachaf> I think I messed that sentence up beyond repair.
00:08:54 <FireFly> I should probably learn about linear logic
00:09:00 <shachaf> That's OK, because fragments of it are enough.
00:09:16 <shachaf> Pretty much anything you can think of is a full subcategory of some category of Chu spaces.
00:18:25 <oerjan> <int-e> Ah, assumptions, the Foglios surprised me once again... <-- which one twh, also they seem _really_ bad at permanently killing off sympathetic characters.
00:19:05 <oerjan> have there been any since they left the circus
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00:23:37 <int-e> oerjan: the one that trains go over ground or in existing tunnels.
00:23:40 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
00:24:13 <oerjan> okay, although there have been plenty of digging machines before
00:24:19 <oerjan> including the beast itself
00:24:38 <shachaf> that's a seriously casual twh just inserted in the middle of a sentence there
00:25:37 <oerjan> shachaf: well i didn't know it took this little to explode your brain
00:25:59 <shachaf> i'm p. much the ghc of people
00:26:13 <lambdabot> Urk! Inventing strangely-kinded void TyCon: :t{tc a5gUj} (* -> *) -> * -> *
00:26:32 <boily> lambdabot has been contaminated by fungot?
00:26:32 <fungot> boily: mr president, i would like to take this historic opportunity and one that has been in existence for over five years. unlike in the past these devices were excluded. in italy, the far left in particular, to let us know the results of the model used in the european union
00:26:49 <oerjan> boily: via ghc, obviously
00:26:52 <ORin> wait why am I on irc thru a server in London?
00:28:15 <boily> HELLORin. because that's the logicalest, fungottest route.
00:28:16 <fungot> boily: mr president, in the aim of encouraging honesty and transparency in this field. i shall, and must remain, the responsibility of the colombian army, went on television to call for vigilance on our planet cannot be bought by decree it has to be undertaken on friday and saturday of this week.
00:28:42 <oerjan> ORin: your normal one probably disconnected you, so irssi chose irc.freenode.net which is essentially random?
00:29:34 <ORin> Yeah it's probably because this Bell wireless router sucks
00:29:56 <boily> you're stuck with the Bell? bletch!
00:29:59 <ORin> Well actually I've never had a wireless router that didn't suck
00:30:30 <ORin> The rogers one sucked too
00:30:52 <ORin> It was somehow even worse when we had both
00:32:35 <ORin> Two routers under the same coffee table probably causes interferenc
00:33:15 <boily> not probably. most surely.
00:34:01 <oerjan> <ais523> we need to connect HackEgo to a server with a shorter name <-- i'm not sure HackEgo's cutoff is very server-dependent...
00:34:10 <HackEgo> 379) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste to them, you should really try to understand what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how food works tho, because it has both th
00:34:53 <ais523> oerjan: the maximum length of an IRC line is the entire line
00:34:56 <ais523> that includes the routing deatils
00:35:14 <oerjan> ais523: i know that but HackEgo's cutoff is conservative iirc
00:35:25 <oerjan> 379) <oklofok> drinks should come in long long pipes that drip liquid at varying speeds, and you shouldn't just casually taste
00:35:28 <oerjan> to them, you should really try to understand what the artist
00:35:31 <oerjan> (the canposer?) was trying to convey when making the drink
00:35:33 <oerjan> <oklofok> olsner: well you know i'm a genius. anyway i like how
00:35:36 <oerjan> food works tho, because it has both th
00:35:49 <oerjan> of course irssi won't use the line joining when i actually want it...
00:35:49 <ais523> oerjan: still cut off, but now neatly word-wrapped and indented
00:36:24 <oerjan> didn't i, like, increase the timeout for this...
00:36:30 <ORin> Hmm... If I did that, it would be alternated with lines from my other coloumn
00:37:18 <ORin> So what the artist (the canposer?) was trying to convey when dv.x=dv.c = n;
00:37:21 <oerjan> paste_detect_time = 100msecs
00:37:44 <oerjan> htf can that be too little.
00:39:11 <oerjan> ORin: i don't think there's much hope of it working with horizontal splitting...
00:40:31 <ORin> It would work if this terminal had block-select
00:40:47 <ORin> but it doesn't
00:40:48 <oerjan> oh hm putty does have that, i've just never used it
00:41:38 <oerjan> won't help with the line wrapping though
01:07:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42862&oldid=42860 * SuperJedi224 * (+800)
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01:24:07 * ais523 is reading the famous "mongodb is web scale" post
01:24:20 <ais523> it's actually better than the meme it spawned
01:24:28 <ais523> "Does /dev/null support sharding?"
01:31:48 <ORin> what does that mean
01:32:28 <ais523> it's basically a conversation between someone who's insisting that monogdb is great without knowing they're talking about
01:32:34 <ais523> and someone who does know databases
01:32:41 <ais523> the start is hilarious, it sort-of breaks down after a while
01:33:04 <ORin> I took a course in databases, and only half of the conversation even has menaing to me
01:33:14 <ais523> (especially because apparently it is parody rather than sincere, in a sort of reverse Poe's Law; I was willing to believe it actually was someone that stupid)
01:34:04 <ORin> like what exactly is sharding?
01:35:08 <ORin> So apparently it means that you store parts of the dataset on different servers
01:36:38 <ORin> heh. technically it is
01:37:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42863&oldid=42862 * 0x0dea * (+69) Add "Hello, world!" program
01:39:20 <ORin> No part of ACID defines what transactions do. ACID only guearantees stuff about how transaction interact
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02:43:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * LostAstronaut * New user account
02:43:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:LostAstronaut]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42864 * LostAstronaut * (+25) Created page with "http://lostastronaut.com/"
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02:45:57 <Sgeo> Node.js and io.js are merging
02:47:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42865 * LostAstronaut * (+636) Created page
02:47:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42866&oldid=42865 * LostAstronaut * (+27)
02:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42867&oldid=42861 * LostAstronaut * (+18)
02:50:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42868&oldid=42866 * LostAstronaut * (+30) revised
02:50:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42869&oldid=42868 * LostAstronaut * (+18)
02:51:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42870&oldid=42869 * LostAstronaut * (+99)
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02:56:46 <HackEgo> olist 985: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
02:57:28 <Sgeo> Well, we understand a little more now
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02:58:22 * oerjan wasn't commenting to Sgeo hth hth
02:58:48 <oerjan> i'd already given up trying to make a relevant portmanteau pun
03:01:19 <shachaf> what's with all the olist updates
03:10:54 <paul2520> all the external links on the Malbrain page are broken :-(
03:10:56 <paul2520> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Malbrain
03:11:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42871 * LostAstronaut * (+2407) Created page
03:12:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42872&oldid=42871 * LostAstronaut * (+17)
03:13:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42873&oldid=42872 * LostAstronaut * (+9)
03:13:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42874&oldid=42873 * LostAstronaut * (+28)
03:14:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42875&oldid=42874 * LostAstronaut * (+10)
03:14:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42876&oldid=42875 * LostAstronaut * (+0)
03:17:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42877&oldid=42876 * LostAstronaut * (+316)
03:17:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42878&oldid=36913 * Paul2520 * (+209) note about external links broken
03:18:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42879&oldid=42877 * LostAstronaut * (+8)
03:19:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42880&oldid=42879 * LostAstronaut * (+16)
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03:30:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42881&oldid=42880 * LostAstronaut * (+1266)
03:31:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42882&oldid=42881 * LostAstronaut * (+103)
03:32:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42883&oldid=42882 * LostAstronaut * (+66)
03:33:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42884&oldid=42883 * LostAstronaut * (+12)
03:47:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42885&oldid=42884 * LostAstronaut * (+186)
03:49:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42886&oldid=42885 * LostAstronaut * (+20)
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03:50:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42887&oldid=42886 * LostAstronaut * (+150)
03:51:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42888&oldid=42887 * LostAstronaut * (+17)
03:51:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42889&oldid=42888 * LostAstronaut * (+31)
03:52:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42890&oldid=42889 * LostAstronaut * (+8)
03:52:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42891&oldid=42890 * LostAstronaut * (+0)
03:53:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42892&oldid=42891 * LostAstronaut * (+19)
03:54:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42893&oldid=42892 * LostAstronaut * (+1)
03:55:03 <oerjan> fungot: anything of note?
03:55:04 <fungot> oerjan: mr president, there are still areas subject to community tax. that would be a complex task, but i would like to make one comment, mr schwaiger, i should like to highlight the need for reform. there is nothing westinghouse can do about it.
04:01:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42894&oldid=42893 * LostAstronaut * (+689)
04:02:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42895&oldid=42894 * LostAstronaut * (+36)
04:03:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42896&oldid=42895 * LostAstronaut * (-10)
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04:21:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42897&oldid=42867 * LostAstronaut * (+15)
04:26:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42898&oldid=36984 * LostAstronaut * (+177) Added Alacrity, a recently created esolang
04:31:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42899&oldid=42896 * LostAstronaut * (+43) categories
04:31:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42900&oldid=42870 * LostAstronaut * (+43) categories
04:47:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42901&oldid=42899 * LostAstronaut * (+388)
04:48:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42902&oldid=42901 * LostAstronaut * (+0)
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06:06:09 <newsham> neat... http://www.projectoberon.com/
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06:07:33 <oerjan> oh freenode is the largest irc network these days...
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07:39:28 <nvd> My "Principles of Programming Languages" exam is in 10 hours...
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07:47:07 * int-e tries to remember which continent Taneb is on.
07:48:44 <nvd> int-e, Europe
07:48:51 <nvd> I am in the UK
07:49:03 <nvd> York, to be precise
07:49:22 <int-e> 6pm ... rather late for an exam
07:49:43 <nvd> I have another one at 9am tomorrow, too
07:50:22 <nvd> That's Introduction to Artificial Intelligence
07:50:57 <int-e> hope you've trained your synapses well
07:54:00 <nvd> It's a bit of a shame the two exams I'm most nervous about are practically back-to-back :(
07:55:55 <nvd> Especially how both are in subjects that I find quite interesting, but were poorly taught
07:56:22 <int-e> . o O ( Principles of Intelligence and Aritificial Programming Languages )
07:57:01 <int-e> Actually it shouldn't be hard to keep the two subjects separate, at least.
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09:45:55 <int-e> cloudatcost has entertainment value: Buffer I/O error on device dm-0, logical block 1081344
09:47:46 <fizzie> I assume the entertainment factor depends a little on how important the task you're trying to use it for is.
09:47:54 <fizzie> fungot: Would you like to move to CloudAtCost?
09:47:55 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, mr barros moura's report raises the issue of trafficking in human beings. in view of the fact that the charter contains some ambiguous provisions that are more politically open and probably more problematic. the debate has been initiated. one of these old objectives i should like to second mr fabre-aubrespy's motion of censure all the more so because only 27 of complaints received fell within the scope of
09:48:14 <fizzie> fungot: I see. But you're not actually a human being, you know.
09:48:15 <fungot> fizzie: mr president, i would refer to as the vietnam war, not to rely on the fact that the member states, but this does not mean that anyone at all can be put in its way by making absolute demands for reforms before an enlargement. doing that would create problems of its chairman, mr staes and mrs langenhagen, i am extremely disappointed to see that the council of defence ministers; and a meeting of the eu-tunisia association
09:49:34 <int-e> fizzie: it serves this mission-critical website: http://104.167.104.168/
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09:50:54 <fizzie> Very nice, but shouldn't that be an animated jif?
09:51:24 <int-e> So it is entertainment to me since I really only bought this lifetime plan to see how bad hosting can be. (conclusion: it could be worse, but not much worse)
09:51:41 <nortti> fizzie: ahem. the only current spelling and pronounciation are ġif and [jif]
09:51:46 <int-e> fizzie: then I'd have to *work* on drawing more frames.
10:10:06 <fungot> mroman_: mr president, ladies and gentlemen, the commission's services are already in the region for the region, but it seems right to add, on this subject with the united states
10:22:05 <Jafet> fungot, our government needs a gift of jiggly yiff GIFs in a jiffy.
10:22:05 <fungot> Jafet: we voted against this directive.
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10:37:43 <fizzie> Shortest europarl answer I've seen.
10:37:55 <fizzie> Also suspiciously relevant.
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10:50:14 <Jafet> This can only mean secession
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10:57:30 <boily> damn. I missed the Tanelle window.
10:58:34 <nvd> While being nvd is fun, I might switch back to Taneb
10:58:56 <nvd> Being nvd didn't solve the problem of "people in real life know me as Taneb and it is kind of scary"
11:02:47 <boily> you are real. you are Taneb.
11:04:56 -!- nvd has changed nick to Taneb.
11:05:03 -!- Taneb has changed nick to nvd.
11:06:18 <nvd> Ah, screw it
11:06:19 -!- nvd has changed nick to Taneb.
11:09:06 <Taneb> Except it's just after noon for me
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11:26:20 <boily> I'm usually there from some time ago until about now. a little bit of breakfast IRC before shower and going to work.
11:26:35 <Taneb> quintopia, I'm not actually up
11:26:39 <boily> it's unusualer to see you at this time of the sun rotation!
11:29:23 <boily> we're coding REST teeth!
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11:49:21 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like Thursdays?
11:49:21 <fungot> b_jonas: the general system. for example, of pensions. the second important message conveyed by mr deva relates to a fundamental right for citizens and, in payment appropriations. will it respect local populations and at the level of the european union
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12:56:29 <ORin> I was thinking of doing a compiler n the LLVM backend for
12:56:59 <ORin> bf and some of is variants
12:59:22 <ORin> (so i guess not really a compiler, just a translator into LLVM intermediate code)
13:00:22 <ORin> has that been done yet?
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13:34:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wepmlrio]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42903 * 178.197.235.7 * (+29) Created page with "Y do u ruin an inside joke :("
13:41:22 <ORin> llvm IR is a great programming language
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14:44:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Timeline of esoteric programming languages]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42904&oldid=42898 * Vriskanon * (+189) Added the program ~ATH as it uniquely always exists in every universe.
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14:55:58 <lambdabot> <hint>:1:9: numeric escape sequence out of range at character '2'
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16:05:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42905&oldid=42863 * SuperJedi224 * (+79) /* Hello, world! */
16:11:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42906&oldid=42905 * SuperJedi224 * (-4) /* Hello, world! */
16:13:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42907&oldid=42906 * SuperJedi224 * (+149) /* Example programs */
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16:14:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42908&oldid=42907 * SuperJedi224 * (+48) /* Roll 1,048,576d4 */
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18:10:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42909&oldid=42908 * SuperJedi224 * (-64) /* Commands */
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19:00:24 <Taneb> That exam went well, I think
19:05:22 <ORin> LLVM doesn't optimize naively translated bf very well
19:07:03 <ORin> for example, it doesn't know to translate [->+<] into an addl instruction
19:08:16 <ORin> Mybe i'm doing something wrong though
19:10:31 <ORin> http://arin.ga/cYdPLX
19:16:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42910&oldid=42909 * 0x0dea * (+1022) Add Half-Truth-machine
19:22:35 <fizzie> I remember doing rather naive bf translation, and getting reasonable outputs.
19:22:42 <fizzie> No time to look right now, though.
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20:00:58 <lambdabot> KNUQ 141956Z 28005KT 10SM -RA FEW043 BKN055 OVC075 15/11 A2983 RMK AO2 RAB39 SLP103 P0000 T01500111
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20:11:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42911&oldid=42910 * SuperJedi224 * (+529)
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20:15:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42912&oldid=42911 * SuperJedi224 * (+53) /* Commands */
20:15:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42913&oldid=42912 * SuperJedi224 * (+21) /* A Java Interpreter */
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20:44:55 <ORin> Ok, so LLVM can't optimiza around writes to global memory
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21:22:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42914&oldid=42913 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Calculate square of input */
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22:21:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42916&oldid=42915 * SuperJedi224 * (+26) /* A Java Interpreter */
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23:01:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42917&oldid=42916 * SuperJedi224 * (-264)
23:01:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42918&oldid=42917 * SuperJedi224 * (+1) /* [Truth-machine]] */
23:03:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42919&oldid=42918 * SuperJedi224 * (+49) /* A Java Interpreter */
23:03:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42920&oldid=42919 * SuperJedi224 * (-131) /* Commands */
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23:10:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42921&oldid=42920 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Truth-machine */
23:10:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42922&oldid=42921 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Truth Machine */
23:11:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42923&oldid=42922 * SuperJedi224 * (-41)
23:12:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42924&oldid=42923 * SuperJedi224 * (+67)
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23:19:36 <boily> I used hth on our company's internal chat!
23:20:10 <boily> I feel corrupted...
23:20:42 <shachaf> is that what a covolcano does?
23:21:08 <boily> shellochaf. I guess so.
23:21:27 <shachaf> Y'know, that 'h' isn't convincing.
23:22:10 <shachaf> It doesn't combine with "hello" at all.
23:22:57 <boily> it's not eugraphic.
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23:24:43 <oerjan> boily: don't listen to shachaf it's just helision
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00:27:25 <ORin> If J is pronounced Y in Norway, does that mean the EU is the JJ?
00:27:49 <ORin> Juropian Junjon
00:28:53 <boily> ORin: don't listen to shachaf it's just phonetics
00:31:54 <boily> ORin: beware the shachafagreeing Norwegian. he's an evil twin hth
00:32:25 <ORin> Oh. Another question. In canada we usually alternate verses of our anthem in english and french. Does the EU alternate all the languages of Europe?
00:32:40 <shachaf> europe has uncountably many languages hth
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00:33:38 <oerjan> which are incidentally the same as the letters E and U hth
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00:34:31 <boily> Ô Canada... Terre de nos aïeux... Ton front est ceint... De fleurons glorieux ♪
00:38:53 <notfowl> Does the EU have an anthem
00:39:25 <oerjan> now if you want the whole phrase, it would be [dɛn æʉɾʊp'eːɪskə ʉnɪ'uːn] if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_phonology is to believed but i actually don't believe the æʉ part surely it should be œʉ.
00:40:14 <pikhq> It is the Oe an die Freude.
00:41:27 <oerjan> or maybe the southerners actually _do_ pronounce it that way hm
00:42:31 <ORin> So the lyrics are in german
00:42:44 <oerjan> i'm not sure that the eu anthem is usually sung rather than played, unless you're listening to the whole beethoven symphony...
00:42:52 <pikhq> It officially has no lyrics.
00:43:20 <pikhq> The Ode an die Freude, as an independent work, typically doesn't have lyrics...
00:43:59 * oerjan recalls an old norwegian children's tv series in which part of the plot was that the characters ended up having to sing it in norwegian because they were too bad at german.
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00:45:05 <oerjan> pikhq: that's really rather weird given that the lyrics are a famous poem...
00:45:45 <ORin> ～Freude schoener Goetterfunken tochter aus Elysium!
00:46:43 <oerjan> some day i might actually manage to learn the whole of it.
00:47:17 <ORin> Maybe they didn't want to use lyrics because of linguistic neutrality or some such nonsense
00:47:36 <boily> ORin: that version has a disturbing lack of diæreses.
00:48:54 <oerjan> ORin: sounds plausible actually
00:50:05 <oerjan> the eu has too damn many languages to cycle through all of them, anyway
00:50:38 <oerjan> and no one would be able to sing the czech part hth htt
00:50:47 <boily> there should be a cyclical European Languages Quine.
00:51:05 <boily> as long as the Czech part has no ř, everything's fine.
00:51:47 <oerjan> boily: strč prst skrz krk hth
00:52:52 <boily> this one is good up until the hth hth
00:53:12 <boily> (yes, I know it's not Czech. still tried to pronounce it as a word.)
00:53:26 <oerjan> boily: you know the r needs to be rolled right?
00:54:44 <boily> oh well. there goes my poor attempt at Czech.
00:55:22 <oerjan> 's ok you're not alone
00:58:26 <boily> https://www.dropbox.com/s/6egsfotxtd14txt/czechth.ogg?dl=0
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04:52:41 <oren> :-D<- what does this show as?
04:54:45 <HackEgo> [U+003A COLON] [U+0050 LATIN CAPITAL LETTER P]
04:54:58 <HackEgo> U+1F3B2 GAME DIE \ UTF-8: f0 9f 8e b2 UTF-16BE: d83cdfb2 Decimal: 🎲 \ 🎲 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ \ U+1F4A7 DROPLET \ UTF-8: f0 9f 92 a7 UTF-16BE: d83ddca7 Decimal: 💧 \ 💧 \ Category: So (Symbol, Other) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals)
04:58:09 <oren> AAAAAA this damn beep speaker beeps everyitme I press a wrong buttion
04:58:15 <oerjan> int-e: i sense that bang has had enough cake for a while
04:59:00 <oren> How does the beep speaker work anyway can I disable the driver for it?
04:59:19 <shachaf> is it true that "ørjan" has emphasis on both syllables
04:59:22 <oren> rmmod or some crap?
04:59:51 <shachaf> it's a great game because every time you type a command it doesn't understand, your blood pressure goes up
04:59:56 <shachaf> and when it goes up too much you die
05:00:34 <oerjan> shachaf: it has a pitch accent that may sound that way, although the stress is still on the first.
05:00:51 <oren> Yeah! rmmod pcspkr work like a charm
05:02:34 <oren> (Although maybe disabling the dirver for it is a little too extreme a solution.)
05:04:38 <oerjan> @tell int-e oooh dreen
05:10:48 <oren> Hmm there doesn't seem to be any better way (which would alow only some programs to beep).
05:13:11 <oren> Either it's beeping on, or beepin off
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05:24:18 <oerjan> @tell int-e see http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20140618 hth
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06:30:17 <oerjan> @tell int-e This makes me wonder if this one was actually wrong, quoting orders, or had a much longer perspective http://www.girlgeniusonline.com/comic.php?date=20121029
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08:43:27 <fungot> mroman_: once again, the commission, which is the separation of powers, to defend himself, to ensure that our rights, which the high level meetings with the ambassadors of southern african countries in reducing sexually-transmitted diseases, affect poor countries much more than just the quantity of employment.
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10:35:08 <J_Arcane> Unlambda as a Racket #lang https://github.com/jkominek/unlambda
10:37:25 <int-e> what's that hash doing there...
10:38:14 <Jafet> You mean the hashtag symbol?
10:38:28 <mroman_> I can only see a number sign
10:42:56 <int-e> Jafet: I just hate seeing those things on IRC.
10:43:39 <int-e> (or anywhere else for that matter, including twitter)
10:43:43 <Jafet> IRC should support a mode where any message with a channel name in it is sent to that channel
10:48:13 <Jafet> Anyway, I believe #lang is racket syntax to set the language mode. (If I'm wrong, hopefully someone in #lang will point that out.)
10:50:02 <boily> #I #still #believe #it's #a #very #bad #idea #hashtaghash
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10:54:29 <int-e> @tell oerjan Well at least that explains the Dreen lurking below the train monks' fortress.
10:54:58 <int-e> @tell oerjan Or rather, it makes it less random.
10:58:47 <lambdabot> CYUL 151000Z 24004KT 30SM OVC250 08/01 A3027 RMK CI8 CONTRAILS SLP252
10:58:51 <lambdabot> ENVA 151050Z 30007KT 260V340 9999 SCT050 08/M02 Q1016 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 30010KT
10:59:26 <mroman_> I tend to view everything after a # as a comment until the end of line.
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12:37:54 <mroman_> fungot: What is your plan for handling refugees?
12:37:55 <fungot> mroman_: mr president, the commission wishes to foster rural development by supporting traditional cultivation and production methods. research shows that older people can also remain in the sector would be as absurd as its opposite: the autarkic thinking which would abolish all free trade? does not the european parliament has committed itself to contributing to the overall political objective, however desirable it might be hel
12:38:37 <mroman_> fungot: Can you summarize that?
12:38:37 <fungot> mroman_: mr president, i too have tabled and which has somewhat hindered meps from participating on a broad political debate can be launched on the matter.
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12:43:32 <mroman_> Does HTTP2 have built-in CSRF protections?
12:44:19 <mroman_> or browsers could actually do that themselves by using an X- header of some sort
12:45:17 <mroman_> cross site request forgery
12:46:31 <mroman_> i.e. tricking somebody into clicking on a link like uhm... http://example.com/deleteEverything.php
12:46:37 <mroman_> which then deletes everything
12:47:04 <mroman_> which works because browsers will send the login cookie no matter if you really wanted to click on that or not
12:47:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42925&oldid=42924 * 50.207.43.222 * (-1)
12:47:16 <b_jonas> oh yes, the javascript stuff. I don't know how all that works.
12:47:33 <mroman_> It works without javascript as well.
12:47:54 <mroman_> <a href="http://vuln.com/logout.ph">see wikipedia</a>
12:47:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42926&oldid=42925 * 50.207.43.222 * (-1) /* Truth-machine */ Golfed out one further character
12:48:10 <b_jonas> mroman_: yeah, but javascript can also send POST requests
12:49:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:SuperJedi224]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42927&oldid=42326 * SuperJedi224 * (-5)
12:51:11 <mroman_> I think for XMLHttpRequests browsers will send an origin header
12:51:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42928&oldid=42926 * SuperJedi224 * (+30) /* Example programs */
12:54:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42929&oldid=42928 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Calculate square of input */ Updated
12:54:16 <mroman_> technically if I read that draft correctly
12:54:24 <mroman_> you could rely solely on checking the origin header
12:55:22 <mroman_> but it isn't an official header yet at IANA?
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12:57:46 <b_jonas> mroman_: doessn't it work like this: all non-pure operations shall use POST method or similar, not the GET method; POST forms or similar javascript on a site could add some value depending on your session cookie and unguessable otherwise in the POST parameters; and POST handlers should check whether that value is valid?
12:58:12 <b_jonas> I'm quite sure in the first part, but not about the rest.
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12:59:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42930&oldid=42929 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Hello, world! */
13:00:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42931&oldid=42930 * SuperJedi224 * (-1) /* Truth-machine */
13:01:38 <J_Arcane> int-e: It's not a hashtag, it's Racket notation.
13:01:52 <J_Arcane> Racket files start with a #lang declaration that indicates what language it is.
13:02:23 <J_Arcane> #lang racket, for instance, or #lang heresy or #lang unlambda, or whatever.
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13:10:59 <mroman_> b_jonas: that's called the "double submit" method
13:11:15 <mroman_> you have a cookie with a secret values and all requests need to include the same value in a hidden field
13:11:22 <mroman_> then you check if the two values match
13:11:51 <mroman_> which would require an attacker to guess the cookie value
13:12:03 <mroman_> (i.e. through XSS, sniffing or whatever means)
13:14:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CalScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42932&oldid=42773 * Vriskanon * (+2606) *Work in progress * Added tables for how the commands work.
13:16:28 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, something like that, but it's only POST requests that need to include it. hmm... I should try this when I experiment with toy web-based stuff.
13:17:32 <b_jonas> mroman_: I know the mediawiki API does this exactly: you can query a token which is tied to your login (and maybe your password too), and you have to include that token in all requests that edit a page or do other write operations.
13:21:55 <mroman_> b_jonas: that depends on the web-application.
13:22:25 <mroman_> there's nothing that prohibits a webapp from modifying stuff even if it's a GET request :)
13:29:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CalScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42933&oldid=42932 * Vriskanon * (+1349) /* Commands */ Added the HEE commands - Tape Manipulation
13:29:51 <b_jonas> mroman_: sure, nothing that prohibits it, it's just usually a bad idea
13:30:40 <b_jonas> and by "modify", I mean modify semantically, not just, say, modify the access logs.
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13:37:05 <scoofy> technically nothing prevents you from using a GET /mypage/command/modify/whatever/super_secret_has_verification_code/ to modify something
13:37:36 <scoofy> it's up to your http server what he does with GET requests :)
13:40:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CalScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42934&oldid=42933 * Vriskanon * (+1513) /* Commands */ Added the HOO commands - Stack and Tape Interaction
13:47:09 <fungot> mroman_: mr president, i should therefore like to thank mr gargani, mr swoboda and mr clegg, representatives of a transnational character, such as the czech republic, drawn up by mr caudron: ' it's demagoguery') ( de) mr president, while welcoming mr fnord report concerns the communication on the implementation by the european development funds in the process. a second important point is being taken in by referenda year upon ye
13:50:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CalScript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42935&oldid=42934 * Vriskanon * (+3236) Added a list of all commands
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16:30:19 <zzo38> Timeline of esoteric programming includes even dates in the future and stuff outside of time.
16:31:13 <zzo38> This file http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope says that many of the tropes are straight but I am not so sure that is quite correct therefore let's fix it please
16:46:26 <zzo38> How can I download page 549 and 550 of Penrose's "Road to Reality" book?
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17:32:03 <b_jonas> How difficult do you think it is to make a parser that lies that it doesn't know some particular construction of the language it parses? For example, imagine a C parser that claims not to support trigraphs, so if you open a function body with ??< it gives an error,
17:34:56 <b_jonas> but it actually knows that that trigraph means { and continues parsing as if you gave { and gives correct error messages for inside the loop body; however, if you forget to close that loop body, it will disguise that knowledge and won't say "unmatched } for the { at line 18" or "unmatched ??> for the ??< at line 18" to pretend it didn't recognize the ??<
17:40:42 <zzo38> How will it then know what error messages to display in that case instead?
17:41:21 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, that's why it's difficult, and I'm not sure it's possible (at least in some cases)
17:41:47 <b_jonas> maybe sometimes it has to backtrack and reparse stuff as if it didn't recognize ??< at all
17:41:58 <b_jonas> if the messages would give away too much otherwise
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17:50:20 <zzo38> It could remember and then "implicitly close the loop" before further parsing and displaying error messages?
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17:52:53 <int-e> you could steal ed's error message
17:53:08 <int-e> that's pretty good at not giving away information
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18:01:30 <zzo38> Many parsers are based on not backtracking
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18:14:10 <Jafet> Oh my, are we actually designing a programming language
18:19:25 <int-e> quick, give me 8 random symbols *ducks*
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18:26:04 <Jafet> `` tr -cd '[:print:]' </dev/random | head -c 8
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19:05:08 <oren> Why are people on Jeopardy so stupid
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19:06:51 <zzo38> Probably because a lot of people in general are so stupid
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19:11:35 <oren> switching to puppy linux overall has been a good experience
19:11:50 <fowl> Puppy is the shiz
19:14:42 <oren> It takes WAY less memory than xubuntu
19:15:09 <oren> Although that may also be because of using seamonkey instead of firefox
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20:12:44 <Taneb> Is every non-zero rational a product of integer powers of primes?
20:16:08 <myname> for each x/y you can make prime factors for x and y
20:16:58 <Taneb> Then can I think of the non-zero rationals as an infinite-dimensional module over the integers
20:17:17 <Taneb> With + being multiplication and scalar multiplication being multiplying all the powers
20:17:23 <Taneb> And the 0 vector being 1?
20:18:06 <Taneb> Yeah, scalar multiplication is exponentiation
20:19:37 <Melvar> Is that not only the strictly positive rationals?
20:21:08 <Taneb> Hmm, yeah, I think it is
20:25:15 <Taneb> Even so, this seems like a weird result to me
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21:01:34 <zzo38> Now I invented a "macro:" (pseudo) URI scheme; it isn't quite a proper URI scheme as it would only then be used a macro processor uses them to replace stuff and then the real data does not containing any such macro: URIs.
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22:05:48 <Taneb> I am not currently planning to
22:07:19 <Taneb> It's a bit like that guy who did a kickstarter to make potato salad, isn't it?
22:08:51 <Taneb> Like, it got a little bit of attention, then just started getting attention because it was getting attention
22:09:05 <Taneb> I wish Azeem and the other performers all the best, but I do not play to attend
22:09:18 <Taneb> Least of all because it's in California, which is a long way away from York
22:10:14 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, so are you just going to have a quiet day in, maybe a cheeky nando's
22:10:31 <Taneb> Well, see, the first issue with me having a cheeky nando's is that I am not a fan of chicken
22:11:24 <Taneb> And I have a linear algebra exam on Tuesday, I was planning on revising for that
22:13:07 <Phantom_Hoover> it was pretty inconsiderate of azeem to schedule his flute recital in the middle of the exams
22:14:23 <Taneb> I think somehow I will find it in myself to forgive him
22:14:33 <Taneb> Especially as I plan to watch the Eurovision Song Contest
22:14:37 <Taneb> Which is also during exams
22:15:23 <Taneb> Also I do not believe he is a resident of any country eligible
22:15:26 <Taneb> Not even Australia
22:16:48 <Taneb> Perhaps. It is however not my cause.
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22:18:48 <Taneb> My cause is getting 100% in linear algebra and groups, rings, and fields
22:18:58 <Taneb> And a good grade in computability and complexity
22:21:41 <Taneb> I did pretty well in Introduction to Group Theory back in January but I lost like two marks
22:21:47 <Taneb> So I am trying harder for these exams
22:22:08 <Phantom_Hoover> do you guys just have really easy exams or are you pushing really hard on being that guy
22:22:08 <Taneb> Also I may have failed Introduction to Artificial Intelligence so I want to bring my grade up somehow
22:22:19 <Taneb> I just knew group theory already
22:22:31 <Taneb> Like, I did maybe 2 hours of revision
22:23:17 <Phantom_Hoover> i was in about the same situation for our intro to abstract algebra and i only got 92%
22:24:02 <Taneb> I messed up the vectors and matrices stuff on my equivalent
22:25:09 <Taneb> Got like 85% or something
22:26:20 <Taneb> That was in Introduction to Group Theory
22:26:35 <Taneb> Completely different
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22:27:59 <Taneb> The one I got 86% in (just looked it up) had a bit of basic group theory but also linear algebra and set theory and some other stuff that I have forgotten
22:28:00 <Sgeo> help I'm arguing with someone who thinks Python's behavior here is wrong and should be error or warning:
22:28:01 <Sgeo> In [1]: "a".split("a")
22:28:01 <Sgeo> Out[1]: ['', '']
22:28:03 <Phantom_Hoover> mid 90s is reasonable for a really easy module but if you're actually getting 100% you're trying too hard
22:28:18 <Taneb> I have never got 100%
22:28:32 <Taneb> I could have in Intro to Group Theory if I had actually tried, though
22:28:54 <Taneb> I only lost marks because I forgot the Fundamental Theorem of Group Homomorphisms even existed
22:29:48 <Phantom_Hoover> that sounds like something so obvious only a twat would call it a Fundamental Theorem
22:31:05 <Phantom_Hoover> oh it's just an overcomplicated first isomorphism theorem
22:35:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42936&oldid=42931 * 72.74.32.143 * (+51) /* Example programs */
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22:48:45 <Taneb> I think I will sleep now
22:48:48 <Taneb> Goodnight, Phantom_Hoover
22:49:50 <root__> wait what the hell why am I root
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22:51:34 <orin> See this is why irssi shouldn't use your username as your nick by default. Everyone will end up being root____ or guest________
22:52:23 <orin> I'm using puppy linux, the only user is root
22:53:26 <zen2> I doubt that. It's generally bad practice to run stuff as root that doesn't need to be run as root
22:53:39 <zen2> to the "Everyone will end up being root___"
22:54:16 <orin> I guess most linux distros do use the user acount system
22:54:46 <zen2> I'm not familar with puppy but it really should have a way..
22:54:48 <orin> I always thought on a single user sytem it get in the way more often then not
22:56:29 <orin> anyway I think it does have a way, but meh, only I use this computer so...
22:58:23 <orin> So I'm taking the BOFH's example
23:01:05 <orin> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02/24/bofh_2006_episode_8/
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23:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42937&oldid=42936 * SuperJedi224 * (+34)
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23:09:14 <oerjan> variable is constantly changing
23:09:18 <lambdabot> int-e said 12h 14m 50s ago: Well at least that explains the Dreen lurking below the train monks' fortress.
23:09:18 <lambdabot> int-e said 12h 14m 21s ago: Or rather, it makes it less random.
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23:17:20 <orin> good evoerjaning!
23:19:36 -!- oerjan has set topic: <fungot> oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? | The portmannel | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
23:21:22 <oerjan> what's the helproblem?
23:25:24 <shachaf> is that an abbreviation for "afternoon" or something
23:25:51 <oerjan> no, it's a norwegian word for evening hth
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23:39:20 * pikhq is far more sleepy feeling than is reasonable.
23:40:00 * oerjan tests if pikhq is actually asleep already
23:40:27 * oerjan wonders how pikhq can be sure
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23:48:58 <oerjan> <mroman_> I tend to view everything after a <-- hm?
23:49:31 <oerjan> @ask mroman_ <mroman_> I tend to view everything after a <-- hm?
23:52:15 <orin> this kinder egg toy is the best I've gotten in years
23:52:47 <shachaf> "Boyer-Moore" is the name of both a string search algorithm and a theorem prover?
23:52:52 <orin> it's a kikass tiny motorcycle with a gyroscope so when it's going fast it syas balanced
23:54:49 <orin> I can only find the string search algorithm
23:59:37 <lambdabot> CYYB 152300Z 16007KT 15SM OVC040 12/08 A3003 RMK SC8 SLP178
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00:04:38 <oerjan> <Taneb> Then can I think of the non-zero rationals as an infinite-dimensional module over the integers <-- yep (modulo the "positive")
00:05:27 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Taneb> Then can I think of the non-zero rationals as an infinite-dimensional module over the integers <-- yep (modulo the "positive")
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00:09:58 <oerjan> @tell Taneb <Phantom_Hoover> are you being that guy who tries to get 100% <-- don't mind him, i used to be that guy hth
00:15:34 * oerjan still remembers the functional analysis exam where he possibly caused another person to fail by shifting the grades
00:16:40 <oerjan> or rather, by preventing them shifting the grades enough for her to pass
00:17:33 <oerjan> it was a very bimodal grade curve. me, and the rest.
00:18:59 <oerjan> i don't remember exactly what the grades were any more, though
00:20:33 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: any way that's the only thing i've ever done that i could possibly admit to falling under "defect strategy". and it was entirely unintentional, i just didn't notice like the rest that the exam was bloody hard...
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00:34:52 <orin> wait what am i doing
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00:49:22 * oerjan googles her name, looks like she's been teaching math teachers and is now doing a doctorate
01:02:40 <zzo38> This is example picture of how you might arrange in GUI the function of FM synthesis of AmigaMML in case of wanting to try different parameter and test it http://zzo38computer.org/img_17/fmsynthedit.png (the program that is actually written in the picture isn't so useful though since the "Play" function doesn't work, and it cannot load or save at all).
01:35:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42938&oldid=42937 * SuperJedi224 * (+67)
01:36:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42939&oldid=42938 * SuperJedi224 * (+17) /* Commands */
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01:49:12 <zzo38> How can I hack Pokemon Pinball so that if I do not win at any bonus stage then it is require to start over the first bonus stage next time instead of you can try the same one again?
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01:57:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42940&oldid=42939 * SuperJedi224 * (+54) /* A Java Interpreter */
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02:19:28 <Sgeo> Going to briefly disconnect from IRC soonish.
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02:25:14 <orin> looks like youv've joined before your other connection timed out
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02:55:04 * oerjan looks up Decim's screetch in a birdwatch handbook
02:55:51 <oerjan> clearly the rare Decimus Desparatus
02:58:15 <oerjan> still following the current slow downward trend hth
02:58:58 <oerjan> also, somehow reading a paintball furry comic
02:59:50 <oerjan> (afaict it started out only slightly furry but kept escalating because the author cannot draw human faces)
03:02:31 <oerjan> (somehow = because phil foglio blogged about it, fwiw)
03:03:32 <Sgeo_> ...how is this thing installing ANYTHING
03:03:43 <Sgeo_> I thought the thing I booted into was just to allow it to... boot into a thingy
03:03:55 <Sgeo_> But it's also installing it without even looking at the other file I downloaded
03:04:26 <Sgeo_> Why is there a 10 minute countdown to restart
03:05:50 <oerjan> (also there are traces of mad science which i'm hoping will pick up)
03:12:09 <Sgeo_> The UI is giving me a 404. Which is shocking because it means that it both exists and is not working.
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03:55:27 <Jafet> The bootloader exists to boot into the sockloader
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07:06:24 <oerjan> i suppose it did http://www.the-whiteboard.com/autowb183.html
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07:57:25 <zzo38> Is 53 millirems per day a large amount?
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08:13:55 <int-e> Yeah, something like 1/3 to 1/6 of the average annual dose from natural sources, but per day.
08:14:18 <zzo38> Yes I thought it too from looking in Wikipedia but don't know a lot about this kind of stuff.
08:14:48 <zzo38> But maybe question need to be rewritten a bit: Is 53 millirems per day a large amount for a raccoon?
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08:16:58 <int-e> It's not *extremely* high. Taking numbers from Canada, the annual dose limit for nuclear energy workers is 50mSv/year, so they could work there for 94 days a year (possibly the whole year if a day is 24 hours but they only work for 8 hours a day)...
08:18:50 <zzo38> Wikipedia says they don't count all of the 24 hours in a day when calculating these radiations limits
08:19:10 <int-e> It doesn't say that exactly.
08:19:43 <int-e> It says that there is such a convention, using 8h = 1day. So one needs to check whether it was used.
08:20:06 <zzo38> How to check if it was used?
08:20:22 <zzo38> Sometimes they might not always tell you if it is or not?
08:20:25 <int-e> How should I know. I don't even know where you got that number from.
08:20:53 <int-e> "if a day is 24 hours" was alluding to that convention.
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08:22:00 <zzo38> I looked at the link oerjan posted and then I put cast; it says there they emit 53 millirems per day, so, I try to learn how it mean by Wikipedia
08:28:55 <int-e> zzo38: I'll probably regret asking this but what do you mean by "put cast"?
08:29:20 <zzo38> I pushed the link for cast
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08:29:54 <zzo38> Because that's what it says.
08:32:43 <zzo38> How often will you try to invent one thing but you actually invented something else instead? I think in the past many people have done similar things a bit too
08:33:19 <int-e> I suspect that emitting radiation is a rather different matter from receiving it from external sources (since Sv is really about radiation that (typically) affects a large volume homogeneously). So I'm not sure what that even means.
08:33:36 <int-e> Anyway, I click or follow links. I don't put them; the web site author did that.
08:34:10 <zzo38> I meant pushed; I made a mistake
08:37:32 <zzo38> How many different ways have people tried to explain use of monads in Haskell programming?
08:38:26 <zzo38> It seems to me that it might help to explain in terms of list comprehensions, especially if you use other programming languages with list comprehensions too
08:38:48 <int-e> too many. enough to prompt this great meta-tutorial https://byorgey.wordpress.com/2009/01/12/abstraction-intuition-and-the-monad-tutorial-fallacy/
08:39:11 <int-e> (and probably others; is there any meta-meta-monad-tutorial?)
08:39:42 <int-e> zzo38: I've read that earlier versions of Haskell had Monad comprehensions.
08:40:34 <zzo38> Actually I think GHC probably still does? Nevertheless it isn't really what I was trying to point out.
08:42:04 <zzo38> I meant learning by list comprehensions in general whether in Haskell or other programming languages; you can easily see join/fmap/return operation on a list structure and then see how bind is related to such, and then see how such operation can be made for other kind of monads too such as IO monad.
08:43:04 <Taneb> int-e, that still exists as a GHC extension
08:43:08 <int-e> (In my view the real problem is that a Monad by itself accomplishes nothing. This can be proved by considering the type Vanish a = Gone which has a law-abiding monad instance, but is useless. So rather than explaining monads, you *have* to exhibit useful examples and extract some common structure.)
08:43:20 <Taneb> Although I believe it was removed from the language proper in Haskell 1.4 or so
08:44:29 <int-e> They were gone, then added back: https://ghc.haskell.org/trac/ghc/ticket/4370
08:45:25 <zzo38> Yes, it isn't so useful but still it is a monad; I called it data Finalize instead of Vanish due to mathematical reasons but that still it work. But that's why I suggested examples by list comprehensions it explain by the useful examples.
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10:56:00 <Phantom_Hoover> why they can never just assume you know what a group is after 3 years of a maths degree is beyond me
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11:35:48 <Jafet> They're grizzled old lecturers, perhaps they do know better.
11:36:20 <Phantom_Hoover> >implying the average lecturer knows what they're doing
11:37:35 <Taneb> Man, your maths lecturers must really suck
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11:38:55 <Taneb> My maths ones have mostly been alright
11:38:59 <Phantom_Hoover> in the unlikely event that you ever encounter this guy trying to teach, run and don't stop: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miles_Reid
11:39:07 <Taneb> The computer science ones have been more of a mixed bag
11:40:10 <Taneb> Including one Doctor Bors who lives up to his name
11:40:38 <Taneb> I think the artificial intelligence module was more the fault of the module than the lecturers, though
11:41:15 <Taneb> It was the kind of module where we had to write the exam answers in 4 different booklets because they were going to be marked by 4 different people
11:42:19 <FireFly> I've had one particularily maths lecturer. I attended the first two or three lectures, but couldn't really hear what the lecturer said, which kinda defeats the point of giving a lecture
11:42:26 <Jafet> The classic grammar school of AI.
11:42:59 <Taneb> That module had like no focus at all...
11:43:47 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, they don't have complete control over it, though
11:43:56 <FireFly> Our mandatory AI course was neat. We got to learn about HMMs and predict and identify birds in a duck hunt-inspired game
11:44:10 <Taneb> FireFly, man, that sounds so much better than ours
11:44:55 <Phantom_Hoover> i had an algorithmic graph theory module last year where it definitely seemed like the 3 lecturers were each teaching their own distinct third of a module
11:45:29 <Phantom_Hoover> that was the one where i spent half the exam with the invigilator going back and forth between them and me because they'd fucked up one of the questions
11:46:52 <Phantom_Hoover> then they put up a correction in the last 30 minutes of a 3 hour exam and just carried on like it was nothing
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13:09:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42941&oldid=42940 * SuperJedi224 * (+847)
13:10:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42942&oldid=42941 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Commands */
13:10:49 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42943&oldid=42942 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* A Java Interpreter */
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13:29:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42944&oldid=42943 * SuperJedi224 * (+77) /* Example programs */
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13:31:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42945&oldid=42944 * SuperJedi224 * (+8)
13:32:38 <orin> they can't assume you know anything, becuase (in the mind of the lecturer) "Those other morons won't ave taught it to them proper!"
13:32:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42946&oldid=42945 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Print 1 if input is "heads", -1 if input is "tails" (16 bytes) */
13:33:55 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: connect: does not exist (Connection refused)
13:33:57 <orin> I have been taught what a 2-complement integer is, at least 4 times
13:34:06 <boily> int-e: AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
13:35:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42947&oldid=42946 * SuperJedi224 * (+4)
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13:40:05 <orin> luckily my father mainly teaches low level courses, like introductory calculus
13:40:42 <orin> ah who am i kidding, he has to go over how to add and multiply fractions pretty much every year
13:40:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42948&oldid=42947 * SuperJedi224 * (+176)
13:42:43 <orin> in his case then, "those other morons" are our high school system and they never do teach much right
13:43:59 <boily> hellorin. I concur with the high school moroninessitude this side of the border.
13:45:40 <orin> In english class I studied Romeo and Juliet 3 years in a row
13:45:50 <boily> be back in a few...
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13:51:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[APLBAONWSJAS]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42949 * Vriskanon * (+1283) Added language APLBAONWSJAS. Entire page finished, save for potential minor mistakes in spelling or wikification.
13:52:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42950&oldid=42791 * Vriskanon * (+19) /* Joke Languages */ Added APLBAONWSJAS
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13:53:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42951&oldid=42656 * Vriskanon * (+71) /* General languages */ Added APLBAONWSJAS
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14:08:59 <mroman_> orin: and what did you learn from studying it?
14:09:23 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 14h 19m 53s ago: <mroman_> I tend to view everything after a <-- hm?
14:09:43 <mroman_> @tell oerjan Invalid HTML Tag!
14:32:24 <orin> mroman: I learned that italian family feuds were just as messed up in the 16th century
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14:57:06 <boily> int-e: int-hello. what are you doing to that poor bot...
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15:02:26 <lambdabot> CYQB 161400Z 07006KT 30SM FEW060 OVC081 15/05 A3013 RMK SC1AC7 SLP205
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15:39:13 <lambdabot> LOWI 161520Z 03004KT 320V120 9999 FEW045 SCT075 21/12 Q1022 NOSIG
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16:29:27 <int-e> @poll-results should-lambdabot-be-more-polite
16:29:27 <lambdabot> Poll results for should-lambdabot-be-more-polite (Open): maybe=4, no=5, yes=3
16:30:46 <shachaf> @vote should-lambdabot-be-more-polite yes
16:35:28 <FireFly> @vote should-lambdabot-be-more-polite maybe
16:35:44 <lambdabot> I KAISER ROLL?! What good is a Kaiser Roll without a little COLE SLAW
16:35:45 <int-e> you /can/ vote privately you know :P
16:36:04 <int-e> it's not really about @yow
16:36:41 <lambdabot> Source not found. It can only be attributed to human error.
16:39:56 <shachaf> int-e: Why vote privately when I can vote publicly?
16:43:45 <int-e> Haskell has a lot of the piratish things, arrays, arrows, but does it have a parrot? (And why haven't I spotted the "arr" in "parrot" before...)
16:47:18 <shachaf> Does this have anything to do with Haskell in particular, or are you just saying that "parrot" has "arr" in it?
16:47:34 <shachaf> Are you talking about the Parrot VM?
16:47:59 <int-e> I'm talking about words containing 'arr'.
16:48:34 <shachaf> "carrot" also has "arr" in it, as do "embarrassed", "sparrow", and "warrior"
16:49:50 <int-e> carrion, warren, barren, marrow...
16:51:08 <orin> (Meat barrel (chestnut) <#1>)
16:52:08 <int-e> quarrel is another nice one. (goes well with marriage)
16:53:08 <boily> fungot: any arr-inspiration?
16:53:09 <fungot> boily: mr president, commissioner, half a million people are heading for a difficult winter. i have little faith in the dogmas of the stability pact, stipulates a framework which allows latitude for weighing up interests, from which the commissioner has dealt to some extent by the difficulties women face unfortunately persist. women are also human limits. at that time too, since that is what she means. that is why it is essenti
16:55:24 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl* ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
16:55:40 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
16:55:52 <int-e> fungot: you don't say
16:55:52 <fungot> int-e: this strange law is not to say that all true men do care; such as union appeals fnord true union men to yield to conviction, that it is parliamentary and decorous to urge the danger arising from popular discontent as an argument for severity; but that it was the first. we have a right to a fair and honourable sample of the spirit of the old banner is flying, by that banner will i at least be found.
16:57:16 <int-e> . o O ( let's all drink to that ... )
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17:03:59 <shachaf> Did you know @arr and @yarr are different commands?
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18:49:32 <orin> "github no longer supports old versions of firefox
18:49:41 <orin> IM NOT USING FIREFOX
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18:52:29 <int-e> I'm sure it was just btw and fyi.
18:52:51 <int-e> (also, what User-Agent header does your browser send?)
18:54:05 <orin> Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:22.0) Gecko/20100101 Firefox/22.0 SeaMonkey/2.19
18:55:25 <int-e> well, close enough.
18:55:40 <int-e> (version 22 is old?!)
18:56:54 <int-e> "Firefox 22 was released on June 25, 2013" ...
18:59:12 <orin> I thought seamonkey was like a fork of firefox. apparently that's not exactly how it works
19:00:37 <int-e> I guess your seamonkey is old, too.
19:11:38 <orin> yeah... a lot of sites are saying i have an old version of firefox... all of them work perfectly fine though
19:16:20 <orin> Ok, why am I getting targeted advertisements that say "how to clear your criminal record?!"
19:17:58 <orin> GOOGLE, I DO NOT HAVE A CRIMINAL RECORD
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19:36:18 <Ox0dea> orin: Why are you using an outdated version of Firefox?
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19:41:51 <orin> because it is what puppy linux precise comes with
19:43:54 <Ox0dea> orin: Convince me to run Puppy.
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19:45:01 <orin> It's cute, makes economical use of your computer's resources, and doesn't come with useless crap
19:47:47 <orin> It can run directly off of a 2GB sd card (which is how I am using it). It boots up in less than 5 seconds
19:48:11 <Ox0dea> I recently had a 1.9s boot on this Arch installation.
19:48:26 <orin> Arch isn't cute
19:48:34 <Ox0dea> echo 'ILoveCandy' >> /etc/pacman.conf
19:49:35 <orin> damn. you've got me there
19:49:51 <Ox0dea> Kidding aside, Arch is as cute as you're willing to make it, but I figure you know that.
19:50:51 <orin> Anyway I'm using puppy because my backup laptop has fried, so this is the backup's backup
19:53:50 <orin> Dell Latitude D620 biatches! Intel Centrino Duo!
19:54:24 <orin> Designed for Windows XP, but it's Windows Vista(TM) Capable!
19:55:04 <Sgeo_> Last time I looked at Puppy, I was confused about which version to use
19:55:38 <orin> It basically depends which oter distro's packeges you want
19:56:11 <orin> Precise puppy uses the packeages from Ubuntu Precise Panda i think
19:57:15 <orin> So if you're familiar with the package names from ubuntu it is easier
19:59:34 <orin> Sorry that's s/Panda/Pangolin/
19:59:52 <orin> Panda would have been better
20:04:56 <orin> n March 2006, Dell introduced the D620 (and the D820), its first business-oriented notebook with a dual core processor available.
20:08:57 <orin> This is also the laptop the burn scar on my right hand is from
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21:40:04 <orin> apparently I can type defined to deifned which autocorrects to deified
21:40:35 <orin> So "It is deified to be equal in the spec"
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21:54:22 <Sgeo_> Does busybox's mount support offset?
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21:59:39 <orin> Hmm. the docs don't have it, but they say that some of the options are filesystem specific
22:00:29 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: what kind of offset? loop device offset, as in losetup -o for Linux and whatever it is called in BSD?
22:02:03 <Sgeo_> I don't know what loop device offset means although I am using a loop device. I mean starting at a specific position if I have a file with multiple partitions
22:02:34 <orin> Ah. Yeah it doesn't appear to support iy
22:03:39 <orin> You could, assuming the file isnt ginormous, just split the partition you want into a separate file
22:05:49 <b_jonas> Sgeo_: loop device offset means that if you create a loop device with offset p, then when you read or write from the loop device at position q, that decide will read the underlying file at position p+q automatically. you can't read the device at a negative file position, so this excludes the beginning of the file, and (in new enough linuxes) you can also give a size limit.
22:06:09 <b_jonas> The whole thing exists in BSDs too, just everything is called differently and controlled with programs of different names.
22:06:40 <b_jonas> The mount program may be able to handle some of this automatically, but you can always use losetup explicitly. I don't know how much, and don't know what busybox can do, you'll have to read the manual or something.
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22:45:57 <shachaf> Sticking around in CT land?
22:47:20 <copumpkin> moving to Richmond, VA, but will probably keep coming up here periodically
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23:06:25 <orin> Richmond is also a place in Canada
23:06:49 <orin> so that is ambiguous
23:11:32 <orin> why can't CaLiforina be abbreviated CL? like NeVada NV
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23:14:27 <lambdabot> mroman_ said 9h 4m 44s ago: Invalid HTML Tag!
23:15:33 <HackEgo> California is pronounced "Caliphate-ornery-I-A"
23:23:39 * oerjan is pleased that his linking to a webcomic just before he left led to a discussion about radiation exposure
23:30:17 <oerjan> good attempt although for maximal analogy i think you should have chosen somewhere in sweden
23:31:40 <boily> What's considered the California of Sweden?
23:33:56 <boily> the most populous län in Sweden is Stockholm. but what are their specific culture and consumption of avocadoes?
23:34:04 <copumpkin> shachaf: my girlfriend's residency :)
23:34:20 <oerjan> stockholm would be the washington d.c. of sweden, surely
23:35:15 <oerjan> i'm thinking göteborg is on the right side of the country but no idea if the climate is particularly dry
23:36:09 <boily> I was thinking perhaps Västra Götaland. lots of people, somewhat West and South...
23:36:15 <shachaf> copumpkin: Ah, right, I think you mentioned.
23:37:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to fix a "Bad DLL calling convention" error?
23:37:53 <boily> oerjan: no place in Sweden seems particularly dry...
23:38:14 <boily> oerjan: hm indeed.
23:40:39 <boily> olsner: hellolsner. could you please swedishly help us about a californian question twh?
23:44:37 <zzo38> I tried changing the function definition in the C code to have _stdcall at front but now it says the entry point is not found
23:45:02 <boily> hezzo38. what are you trying to do?
23:45:28 <zzo38> O, now it says it is called "Synthesize@8" for some reason, I will try that
23:45:39 <zzo38> boily: I am trying to call a C code from a Visual Basic code
23:46:21 <zzo38> Well, I got that to work now
23:46:56 <zzo38> Adding @8 to the end of the function name worked, but now I got a MCI error
23:49:45 <zzo38> It says "The MCI device you are using does not support the specified command."
23:51:57 <oerjan> <zzo38> But maybe question need to be rewritten a bit: Is 53 millirems per day a large amount for a raccoon? <-- i suspect it is rather a large amount for the raccoon to be _radiating_.
23:53:22 <orin> Apparently the issue with google not working on text-browsers was only temporary, probably caused by one of their game-events
23:56:36 <boily> fungot: radiating raccoons?
23:56:36 <fungot> boily: my great competitor among the reporters was boggs, of the duke of bedford would have it, from domestic misgovernment or from foreign hostility. the danger of the states-general was the signal for the fnord
00:00:08 <orin> boggs is an unfortunate name to have
00:01:33 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> [...] This can be proved by considering the type Vanish a = Gone which has a law-abiding monad instance, but is useless. [...] <-- it's not too hard to show that if some (m t) has at least two values then return must be injective, so the Identity monad embeds.
00:01:53 <oerjan> boily: http://www.the-whiteboard.com/cast/
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00:29:38 <oerjan> <orin> So "It is deified to be equal in the spec" <-- sounds like a good starting point for a religion there
00:33:02 <boily> are there any standards for religions? ISO? RFC?
00:33:46 <oerjan> there's probably one in the mahabharata somewhere
00:33:53 <pikhq> I don't think there's an ANSI standard religion.
00:34:28 <pikhq> You could probably consider the Anglican Church the BS standard religion though.
00:35:04 <oerjan> i suppose an ANSI standard religion would be unconstitutional
00:36:16 <oerjan> in other news, only 2 years until norway separates church and state hth
00:38:10 <pikhq> ANSI is not associated with the US government.
00:40:27 <zzo38> I don't expect ANSI requires a standard religion
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00:41:44 <orin> I suppose the Catechism is sort of the spec for Catholicism
00:42:04 <pikhq> Also, apparently "In God We Trust" is "ceremonial deism" which is somehow "constitutional", so.
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00:42:38 <oerjan> the fowlarization keeps reversing
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00:44:41 <orin> It's kind of convenient that the Catholic church keeps a public document of what precisely they believe.
00:46:02 <zzo38> Yes, it does help, so that people can understand it.
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00:49:38 <pikhq> orin: Not fond of folks like the Quakers then?
00:55:45 <orin> I wouldn't say that. But I generally like people to properly define what they think
00:56:20 <orin> I can't stand it when people like politicians talk out both sides their mouth
00:56:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42952&oldid=42948 * 72.74.32.143 * (+283)
00:58:10 <orin> So I definitely like that the Catholics have a very firm definition of their ideology
00:58:44 <pikhq> Least the Quakers are likely to very clearly tell you what they believe.
00:59:06 <pikhq> ("honesty about beliefs" is, like, their only bit of hard and fast dogma)
01:00:33 <pikhq> The main problem is, they don't really, y'know, believe in firmly defined fixed ideology. :)
01:00:53 <pikhq> (not a Quaker, just found their whole thing a bit interesting)
01:03:46 <zzo38> They don't need to as long as it is specified that they don't need to, as far as I am concerned. Nevertheless ideas should be made available so that you can figure out what you do believe or if you don't agree or whatever.
01:04:33 <pikhq> Sure. Stuff like the Church of Scientology is just sickening.
01:06:36 <orin> Well, I think they have more than one problem
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01:19:04 <Sgeo_> zzo38, do you know stuff about MIDI file format?
01:19:17 <zzo38> Sgeo_: I know a few stuff
01:19:36 <Sgeo_> Do you happen to know if there is any obvious sequence of bytes that would likely appear at the end of any MIDI?
01:20:52 <Sgeo_> I have a ".rsc" file which contains a bunch of files including MIDI files. I'm not sure how the .rsc file format works, but the files it contains seem to be in there plain.
01:23:27 <zzo38> You can figure out the size by the heading
01:24:49 <orin> MThd occurs at teh start of a midi
01:24:59 <orin> http://www.ccarh.org/courses/253/handout/smf/
01:25:01 <Sgeo_> zzo38, as in the MIDI file itself contains its own size?
01:26:40 <zzo38> You can look up number of tracks in the MThd block and then each track tell you the total data size.
01:27:35 <Sgeo_> Is only one track weird or normal
01:27:53 <zzo38> I think it is normal to have only one track
01:28:18 <zzo38> Even with only one track you can have up to sixteen channels
01:31:00 <zzo38> Although the track also ends with FF 2F 00 but it isn't guaranteed to not occur elsewhere in the file, due to running status
01:33:55 <Sgeo_> Looks like I did things correctly :)
01:34:07 <Sgeo_> If the ending was corrupt, would I notice at any point before the end?
01:35:54 <zzo38> If you find the event FF 2F 00 before the end (but only if it is in a place where an event belongs) then I would suppose it is wrong
01:36:28 <Sgeo_> I copy/pasted from a hex editor based on my understanding of the length, and just looked at what I copy pasted and it did end with FF 2F 00
01:36:50 <Sgeo_> I wonder if an extractor that only extracted midis would be useful or useless
01:37:23 <zzo38> Well, I have written one for the DOS game Hocus Pocus, so probably it might be useful to some people
01:39:09 <Sgeo_> Someone has written a more thorough extractor, but as far as I know it's not open source and it's only available from shady sites
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03:28:21 <oerjan> or[ei]n: or possibly you can /set nick and then /save
03:28:34 <oerjan> at least i see my nick in .irssi/config
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03:32:06 <oerjan> or[ei]n: apparently you can also set the environment variable $IRCNICK
03:33:10 <oerjan> presumably only if you don't change /set nick
03:39:22 <zzo38> I use macro in my configuration file to set nicknames; in my opinion that is better way.
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03:48:28 <Sgeo_> http://codu.org/webmidi/gen/17879560417051/17879560417051.ogg
03:48:41 <Sgeo_> Is this a song from some well-known game?
03:48:54 <Sgeo_> I know a not-so-well-known game used it, wondering if it took it from somewhere
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04:18:06 <zzo38> How can I add a feature of auto-accompaniment into AmigaMML?
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05:26:51 <Sgeo_> ARe devices on a wifi network allowed to... just claim a hostname?
05:27:07 <Sgeo_> Trying to understand how http://find.synology.com works
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05:34:43 <or[ei]n> maybe it uses 192.168.n.m? there are only 65536 possiblities
05:40:26 <shachaf> It connects to diskstation.local:5000
05:40:44 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.local hth
05:43:14 <Sgeo_> FOr some reason I saw diskstation not diskstation.local
05:45:24 <Sgeo_> Also that link says Windows doesn't have mDNS support
05:47:52 <shachaf> My router will resolve hostnames on the local network.
05:48:51 <Sgeo_> WHat if two things try to use the same hostname?
05:49:08 <Sgeo_> E.g. if I have that DSM thing both as physical hardware and in a VM
05:49:20 <Sgeo_> And they both say they're diskstation
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06:36:28 <zzo38> The domain name should resolve by administration; it shouldn't be allowed to just claim a hostname; print the MAC address on the device if you need to know how to refer to it
06:37:19 <zzo38> But I suppose both wired and wireless network routers if they have DNS server can use the MAC address to make up the domain name if such function is enabled
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07:05:18 <zzo38> What is the proper way to keyscale a filter envelope?
07:05:26 <zzo38> s/keyscale/antikeyscale/
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08:08:14 <Vorpal> <Sgeo_> ARe devices on a wifi network allowed to... just claim a hostname? <--- that is a common setup of home routers yes
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11:04:35 <int-e> oerjan: while we're splitting hairs, "it's not too hard to show that if some (m t) has at least two values then return must be injective, so the Identity monad embeds" <-- true, but those (observably, hmm) distinct values are a feature that lives outside the monad signature. Which was the point, pretty much.
11:12:44 <Taneb> oerjan, happy Norwegian Constitution Day apparently
11:12:46 <int-e> > let f True = return () :: State () () in ((return False >>= f) `seq` (), (f False) `seq` ())
11:12:48 <lambdabot> ((),*Exception: <interactive>:3:5-37: Non-exhaustive patterns in function f
11:14:59 <oerjan> Taneb: thx although my sleeping cycle is precisely the wrong way around for it
11:15:18 <Taneb> oerjan, your sleep schedule is unconstitutional hth
11:15:51 <int-e> wait, your constitution (I mean the legal one) regulates sleep schedules?
11:16:39 <int-e> Though I guess it does cover human rights and therefore sleep deprivation as a form of torture...
11:16:54 <int-e> ...but I don't think that's applicable to oerjan's case.
11:17:20 <oerjan> int-e: perhaps not, although "making people get up in the morning (before they get welfare support)" is kind of a political cliché here
11:17:44 <Jafet> Lack of sleep is known to be bad for the constitution
11:17:53 <oerjan> (obviously they completely failed with me)
11:20:55 <oerjan> Jafet: it's not lack of sleep on average, just strange synchronization
11:29:15 <int-e> @poll-result best-spoken-language
11:29:15 <lambdabot> Poll results for best-spoken-language (Open): magyar=3, Polish=484, Welsh=1, Georgian=3, Manx=1, norwegian=8
11:29:51 <int-e> @poll-remove best-spoken-language
11:29:51 <lambdabot> poll "best-spoken-language" removed.
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11:51:59 <Taneb> The Cayley-Hamilton theorem seems very odd to me
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12:02:16 <int-e> (And I like the stupid one-line "proof", that says that since p_A(x) = det(A - x I), we have p_A(A) = det(A - A I) = det(0) = 0.)
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12:47:41 <b_jonas> fungot, do you like potatos?
12:47:41 <fungot> b_jonas: the alphabet and simplified spelling spelling and pictures books and burglars authors' club
12:55:05 <boily> b_jhellonas. I think the 'got prefers alphabet soup hth
13:07:04 <boily> . o O ( does the Hungarian version of alphabet soup have ő and ű? )
13:09:31 <b_jonas> boily: no, at least not the ones I've seen
13:10:09 <b_jonas> I don't think there's a separate Hungarian version produced even
13:11:04 <boily> so much for i18ned alphabet soup :/
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13:12:35 <b_jonas> boily: there's the question of whether there's a kanji alphabet soup
13:14:04 <b_jonas> it would probably need sprues to hold the pasta for disconnected kanji together
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13:16:37 <or[ei]n> or it could just use the cursive versions of the kanji
13:18:31 <boily> a variation on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edomoji ?
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13:18:52 <HackEgo> Weloxux: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
13:19:11 <or[ei]n> most people's would just be for example Sgeo_* but Taneb would be \(Ta\)\?n\(eb\|vd\)
13:19:17 <boily> meanwhile, what the fungot is kakuji...
13:19:18 <fungot> boily: 107. to this time it has been said: " one minute." and if we turn from this glorious spectacle to the private chamber of the fnord discussions by which we are led particularly to impress the lesson already alluded to on your attention. of the advantages of knowledge between those who hate all order. england has no peculiar reason to dread the introduction of personal reflections of any kind was referred to at that day. b
13:19:37 <Taneb> or[ei]n, that doesn't cover atriq or Ngevd
13:20:11 <Taneb> Mine'd be (Taneb|atriq|N(ge)?vd) if I got the formatting right
13:20:27 <Taneb> Not sure it can be simplified past that without false positives
13:21:31 <or[ei]n> At some point I should switch my ed mod to use eregexes. bregexes can be hard to read
13:21:56 <b_jonas> couldn't they just recognize you from your irc username (as opposed to nick)? Istr that's "Taneb" even when you're nvd or whatever other nick
13:22:22 <Taneb> I really ought to make my realname my actual real name
13:23:25 <Taneb> Hmm, has this changed it?
13:24:11 <Taneb> Anyway, my real name is Nathan van Doorn, if anyone asks
13:24:32 <or[ei]n> My real name is Oren Isaac Watson
13:24:39 <b_jonas> or[ei]n: you could use a regex modifier like gnu sed does, only drawback is that the modifier letter shan't collide with a command, because just like sed, ed allows regex match in an address
13:24:59 <b_jonas> what's your real name when nobody is asking?
13:26:23 <b_jonas> doesn't it have an "e" somewhere?
13:26:51 <or[ei]n> But when I was in primary school I often got confused as to how to spell it
13:27:32 <or[ei]n> Izak is much more correct phonetically than Isaac
13:29:15 <or[ei]n> It didn't help that up until grade 2 I wrote my Z and S identicaly
13:30:21 <b_jonas> or[ei]n: I cross all my lower case z because otherwise I'd write them too similarly
13:31:24 <b_jonas> not exactly the same, but it still helps
13:31:40 <b_jonas> the bad part is that I write lots of other letters so ugly even I can't distinguish them
13:33:03 <or[ei]n> I have very terrible printing, but very nice cursive
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13:33:34 <or[ei]n> the main problem is r versus v and u
13:34:02 <or[ei]n> when i print, they STILL look the same unless I pay a lot of attention
13:35:15 <or[ei]n> I wish i was allowed to use kanji as variables in equations
13:35:45 <b_jonas> or[ei]n: yeah. in my handwriting, "r" and "v" are the same too. ("u" is different.) also, "f" and "b" are often too similar. and I write "c" and "w" and "p" too close to the next letter, AND "c" too similar to "e", which makes "cl", "d", "el" sometimes look the same
13:36:44 <or[ei]n> Your printing is probably not as angular as mine
13:36:45 <b_jonas> I don't even know a good way to write "v" different from "r" (and other letters, including "b") unless I write it very wide. I should figure out some solution for that and learn it. as well as learn to write "c" properly.
13:37:54 <or[ei]n> yeah, what I do is sub in a cursive r
13:38:27 <boily> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_script helps. vertical downstokes, diagonal upstokes.
13:38:27 <or[ei]n> which looks weird but at least is distinguishable in equations
13:38:32 <b_jonas> or[ei]n: yes, but that's the problem. a cursive "r" looks like a cursive "v" to me, and somewhat similar to a cursive "b", because they both end in a raised shallow smile.
13:39:36 <b_jonas> I can make "v" and "b" and "f" different because of their ascenders and descenders if I take care, but that doesn't help for "r" versus "v"
13:41:03 <b_jonas> I never really had a problem with "u" versus "v", or with "o" versus "a", unlike some people
13:41:50 <or[ei]n> yeah... basically what I'm saying is, I write v and u both like v appears in most fonts.
13:44:14 <or[ei]n> so yeah, mostly angular and scary
13:44:53 <or[ei]n> l looks like a line when I don't care, like a long z when I try to distinguish it
13:48:54 <Taneb> Wow, I feel really good about my handwriting now
13:49:30 <or[ei]n> you people with good coordination... you probably can touch type too
13:50:26 <or[ei]n> I can wirte beatiful cursive but only at like, 20 words a minute
13:52:04 <or[ei]n> off topic, I am so happy to be back on a latop with a nub mouse
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13:55:29 <or[ei]n> "Of or pertaining to uncles"
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16:14:38 <Taneb> It's quarter past 5 in the evening, I should get dressed and have breakfast
16:16:07 <b_jonas> past... oh, you're using British timezone, +01:00
16:18:19 <Taneb> York, to be precise
16:18:59 <or[ei]n> Do you march up the hill and then down again?
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16:21:02 <Taneb> or[ei]n, there are very few hills here
16:21:17 <Taneb> However, last year I routinely walked up and down one of them
16:21:50 <Taneb> That being Siward's Howe
16:22:22 <Taneb> shachaf, in places
16:22:26 <Taneb> Not particularly, though
16:22:35 <Taneb> The one Clifford's Tower sits atop is
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16:26:11 <or[ei]n> I wonder who originally decided that \ was the escape character
16:29:26 <or[ei]n> If it was the same person who decided to use / to delimit regexes, I want to slap that person
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16:43:21 <zzo38> I don't know but some program also they can use different escapes/delimiters too
16:48:16 <b_jonas> of course. sed and ed (for both matching and replacment), ex (for substitution), bash (for history expansion substitution), perl (for matching and substitution) can all use different delimiters
16:48:36 <Vorpal> <or[ei]n> If it was the same person who decided to use / to delimit regexes, I want to slap that person <-- depending on context and program other values may be allowed
16:48:45 <b_jonas> I think the slash syntax probably originates from ed
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16:49:07 <Vorpal> s#a#b# works too, in fact any one character following the s will be used for delimiter
16:49:12 <b_jonas> I don't quite know where backslash for escapes comes from, maybe from the original shell
16:49:53 <b_jonas> sed has basically taken most of that syntax from ed
16:51:21 <b_jonas> is there an ex syntax for searching with any delimiter though, not just a slash or question mark?
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17:38:49 <zzo38> I have x=atan(z)/(0.5*TAU)+0.5; sam[i]=y=x*sam[i]+(1.0-x)*y; What is a way to adjust this kind of filter parameter for a change in sample rate? I have a parameter "scale" which is the reciprocal of the sample rate although it is not in Hz and is rather 1.0 for the base amount (whatever the base amount happens to be).
17:45:42 <int-e> is this supposed to cause a phase shift, for some kind of stereo effect?
17:46:34 <or[ei]n> the atan part would be a soft-limit
17:47:00 <or[ei]n> so that high amplitudes aren't clipped too badly
17:47:52 <int-e> hmm, not quite, because there's some feedback through the y variable. meh.
17:49:01 <int-e> (I'm commenting on my own comment, not yours, oren)
17:49:07 <zzo38> It seems a kind of lowpass filter to me. I wanted to at least approximate the change in cutoff from a change in sample rate so with a higher sample rate it is at least partially affected.
17:49:27 <shachaf> i prefer that you use the nick "orin" because "oren" is already taken hth
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17:50:17 -!- or[ei]n has changed nick to ORin.
17:51:20 <int-e> so orin is not oren, even though oren sometimes used the nick orin? I'm confused.
17:52:01 <zzo38> NS INFO shows two different accounts
17:52:02 <ORin> As far as I know I'm the only or[ie]n who has ever been on this channel
17:52:54 <ORin> (i'm the oren who wrote scrip7 ith)
17:53:33 <int-e> ORin: so is any of the accounts that nickserv knows about (it has both oren and orin) yours?
17:53:35 <ORin> also people keep referring to accounts but I have no clue
17:54:02 <int-e> (I think that's a no)
17:54:07 <shachaf> int-e: my father's name is oren hth
17:54:35 <ORin> I just do irssi --nick oren -c irc.freenode.net
17:54:51 <ORin> or orin depending on the phase of the moon
17:55:21 <zzo38> Why it depend on the phase of the moon?
17:55:23 <int-e> . o O ( orientation )
17:55:29 <ORin> Before, my username on the computer was oren so I didn't need to --nick
17:56:14 <ORin> zzo38: it doesn't actually, it's random
17:56:39 <int-e> /set nick orin ... /save ... edit .irssi/config to your heart's delight?
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17:59:18 <Melvar> Btw today my interpolation grew showing of non-strings.
17:59:19 <int-e> (there's also /save layout ... oh and I believe all this is actually documented somewhere)
17:59:48 <ORin> Melvar: um. What?
18:00:17 <int-e> ah wait, it's /layout save. hah.
18:00:19 <Melvar> ( let x = 2 in let y : Integer = x * x in interpolate "${x} squared is ${y}"
18:00:25 <int-e> (I haven't used that in a while)
18:00:52 <Melvar> ( \x : Integer => let y = x * x in interpolate "${x} squared is ${y}"
18:00:52 <idris-bot> \x => prim__concat (prim__toStrBigInt x) (prim__concat " squared is " (prim__concat (prim__toStrBigInt (prim__mulBigInt x x)) "")) : Integer -> String
18:01:08 <ORin> i'm no stickler for grammer, but at a fundamental level that sentence was
18:02:57 <Melvar> Well, I guess I missed a comma.
18:03:12 <ORin> Where?E?EE??e?
18:04:06 <ORin> uh, no i mean what does "my interpolation grew showing" mean how do i even parse that
18:04:23 <Melvar> “showing” used as a noun.
18:04:27 <int-e> ORin: nothing. it's (my interpolation) grew (showing of non-strings)
18:04:57 * int-e doesn't particularly like "grew" there, but it appears to be grammatically correct.
18:05:32 <ORin> Oh. so he added support for showing non-strings to an implementation of string interpolation
18:05:36 <Melvar> Well, to be quite correct it’s that *my implementation* of interpolation grew it.
18:06:30 <ORin> Before I suppose you had to convert things to strigs before interpolationg them?
18:07:30 <ORin> I always thought perl's string interpolation was too far
18:08:21 <Melvar> And it still only works with variable names because supporting even very simple expressions turns out to be rather nontrivial.
18:08:33 <ORin> there is no good reason to allow arbitrary code inside a string, and it screws up the vast majority of syntax highlighters
18:08:39 <Melvar> Oh, and “showing” was also meaning
18:08:41 <idris-bot> Prelude.show : Show a => a -> String
18:09:23 <Melvar> ORin: The fun of this one is that this is a library rather than implemented inside the compiler.
18:10:07 <zzo38> In some programming languages (such as Forth) the only way to properly do syntax highlighting is to execute it (although you can sandbox it if necessary).
18:10:23 <ORin> So when it gets to "${x}" it has to somehow search the environment for a variable called x?
18:10:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, perl is one of those languages too.
18:10:46 <Melvar> ORin: Yes, which it does via reflection.
18:11:09 <b_jonas> interpolation in strings has nothing to do with being hard to highlight
18:11:23 <b_jonas> ruby is a case in point, it has string interpolation, but it's relatively easy to parse
18:11:31 <b_jonas> just imagine the interpolation as if the string literal is broken there
18:11:45 <zzo38> I know that a Forth syntax highlighter that works by executing the code does exist; I don't know if there is such thing of Perl.
18:12:00 <b_jonas> so when I write "foo#{bar}qux" it's really similar to ("foo" + String(bar) + "qux")
18:12:00 <ORin> Only perl can parse Perl
18:12:11 <b_jonas> in ruby, you have to parse the bar part like a normal expression that can contain any code
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18:12:20 <Melvar> The reflection is compile-time-only though.
18:12:22 <b_jonas> (this differs from perl, which finds the closing double quote first)
18:12:36 <b_jonas> it works the same as menti9oning variables in ordinary code
18:12:39 <Melvar> b_jonas: I’m talking about mine.
18:13:06 <Melvar> Sorry, I forgot to press enter first and then failed to consider context when I did remember.
18:13:19 <b_jonas> (ruby's interpolation syntax makes more sense by the way, but it's too late to change perl now)
18:14:14 <Melvar> ( \bar : String => interpolate "foo${bar}qux"
18:14:14 <idris-bot> \bar => prim__concat "foo" (prim__concat bar "qux") : String -> String
18:16:01 <Melvar> If it didn’t reduce it as far, that would be exactly “\bar => "foo" ++ bar ++ "qux"”
18:16:15 <Melvar> ( \bar : Integer => interpolate "foo${bar}qux"
18:16:15 <idris-bot> \bar => prim__concat "foo" (prim__concat (prim__toStrBigInt bar) "qux") : Integer -> String
18:16:29 <b_jonas> Melvar: is this some crazy template haskell thing?
18:17:04 <ORin> it's some crazy compile-time idris thing
18:17:08 <Melvar> b_jonas: It’s not completely unlike it, but not all that like it either.
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18:19:21 <Melvar> Basically, I don’t get to output an parser-level AST thing, I have to fill in a fully-specified term of the core language using hooks into the elaborator.
18:21:07 <Melvar> The elaborator is the thing that fills in all the intermediate types and implicit arguments and generally turns Idris into TT.
18:22:04 <idris-bot> (NS (UN "++") ["Strings", "Prelude"])
18:22:04 <idris-bot> (Bind (UN "__pi_arg") (Pi (TConst StrType) (TType (UVar -1))) (Bind (UN "__pi_arg1") (Pi (TConst StrType) (TType (UVar -1))) (TConst StrType))))
18:22:07 <int-e> a combination of desugarer + typechecker?
18:22:33 <Melvar> Well, there’s another typechecker underneath that’s simple for reliability.
18:23:07 <int-e> oh, it's a theorem prover. right.
18:23:45 <Melvar> The idea is that the elaborator answers the actual typechecker’s call to “please elaborate” on the rather threadbare thing the user input.
18:24:51 <Melvar> There’s a whole two arguments to show I haven’t given.
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18:25:34 <Melvar> The first one can be found by unification using the argument I did gave, then the second has to be found through instance search using the first one.
18:26:40 <Melvar> Also I never said that I wanted the show from Prelude (though in this case of course there isn’t another in scope so resolving that is relatively easy).
18:27:50 <idris-bot> (NS (UN "++") ["Strings", "Prelude"])
18:27:50 <idris-bot> (Bind (UN "__pi_arg") (Pi (TConst StrType) (TType (UVar -1))) (Bind (UN "__pi_arg1") (Pi (TConst StrType) (TType (UVar -1))) (TConst StrType))))
18:28:26 <Melvar> ↑ And this thing is the core-language representation of that little term.
18:29:41 <int-e> meh how overloaded is (++) there?
18:30:02 <idris-bot> When elaborating an application of function Prelude.show:
18:30:02 <idris-bot> Can't disambiguate name: Data.HVect.++, Prelude.List.++, Prelude.Strings.++, Data.VectType.Vect.++
18:30:09 <idris-bot> Data.HVect.(++) : HVect ts -> HVect us -> HVect (ts ++ us)
18:30:09 <idris-bot> Prelude.List.(++) : List a -> List a -> List a
18:30:09 <idris-bot> Prelude.Strings.(++) : String -> String -> String
18:30:09 <idris-bot> Data.VectType.Vect.(++) : Vect m a -> Vect n a -> Vect (m + n) a
18:30:44 <Melvar> The biggest part there, the third line, is just the type of Strings.(++).
18:31:24 <int-e> yeah, I'm trying to parse that.
18:32:44 <int-e> which means I have to remember how -> is expressed as a dependent product.
18:32:58 <Melvar> It may help if I phrase it as “(__pi_arg : String : Type (-1)) -> (__pi_arg1 : String : Type (-1)) -> String”
18:33:38 <int-e> oh, (TType (UVar -1)) is the box?
18:33:42 <Melvar> Which isn’t actually valid syntax with the extra explicit types of types.
18:34:05 <Melvar> (TType _) is the representation of Type, the type of types.
18:34:38 <int-e> I guess I'm wondering whether -1 has a particular meaning there.
18:34:45 <Melvar> Which contains an id for a universe level so that you don’t get cyclic universe constraints.
18:35:58 <Melvar> I’m not sure if the id (-1) is special, but it probably is.
18:36:43 <Melvar> It might be the level that primitive types are resolved to or something.
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18:37:44 <idris-bot> prim__BindElab : Elab a -> (a -> Elab b) -> Elab b↵…
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18:38:50 <idris-bot> Melvar.Interpolate.interpolate : String -> {tacimp x : String} -> String
18:39:32 <Melvar> Elab is the monad of elaboration scripts, and that tacimp in the source actually points at such an elaboration script to fill in the value of x.
18:39:38 <idris-bot> Melvar.Interpolate.elabInterpolate : String -> Elab ()
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19:30:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42953&oldid=42810 * Madflame991 * (-1) Updated a broken link
19:33:15 <Taneb> Aaaah I am foiled once more by takeaways stopping delivery at 8:30
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19:35:01 <shachaf> also apparently it's called take-away in the uk
19:36:37 <Taneb> What is it called in other places
19:37:16 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Takeaway hth
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19:46:59 <ORin> It is called carry out
19:47:21 <ORin> as in "Eat in, or carry out"?
19:47:54 <shachaf> I can't tell whether you're asking a question or trying to quote a question.
19:47:58 <shachaf> "China produces about 57 billion pairs of single-use chopsticks yearly"
19:48:04 <shachaf> that's a lot of chopsticks
19:48:49 <b_jonas> yeah, it's 114 billion chopsticks per year
19:49:20 <ORin> Luckily wood is a renewable resource
19:49:55 <ORin> Not as renewable as stone though
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21:00:42 <int-e> okay, so the bogus hpa RSA key is an md5 collision, beautiful.
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21:11:45 <tswett> You know what I like? Fully general examples.
21:12:13 <tswett> For example, one example of the idea of a group is the idea of a permutation group.
21:12:40 <tswett> But this example is fully general, because every group can be seen as a permutation group.
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21:33:56 <int-e> hmm, oh well, I don't know why, but the bad and the good keys differ in a single block of 32 bytes length, not obviously aligned in any way.
21:34:34 <zzo38> Some program such as SoX and ImageMagick and so on can operate on sounds, pictures, videos, etc but they are really different number of dimensions and different number of channels (such as 3 dimensions for an animated picture), and still there is resolution parameter (such as DPI for pictures and sample rate for audio). Some operators can also be generalized to different number of dimensions/channels.
21:38:00 <zzo38> For operators that work only one dimension you can specify which dimension to act on if there is more than one. Simple echo effects can be generalized more than one dimension since the delay for echo can be a vector of multiple dimensions; noise can also be any number of dimension, and also gradients, etc. Therefore such program can be made to operate such thing
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22:03:35 <int-e> Oh well, https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9561179 seems to be the most reasonable take on it so far. I still wonder whether there was any malicious intent behind the bogus subkey.
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22:13:10 <oerjan> <Taneb> Wow, I feel really good about my handwriting now <-- word :P
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22:40:58 <tswett> Where I live, the ubiquitous question asked at fast food places is "for here or to go?"
22:41:06 <tswett> The responses are, of course, "for here" and "to go".
22:41:57 <oerjan> in norway there's actually a tax difference
22:42:00 <tswett> But the food itself would be referred to as "carryout", if you have to make the distinction.
22:42:26 <int-e> oerjan: which one has less taxes? take away food?
22:42:26 <oerjan> due to some ancient political shuffling
22:43:19 <tswett> I feel like there's a difference between "carryout" and "to go", but I can't quite put my finger on it.
22:43:32 <oerjan> there's a general vat exemption for food, which doesn't apply to restaurants, and they wisely decided that if you take the food away from the restaurant you get _half_ the exemption.
22:43:35 <int-e> Lucky guess, I can't say that either really makes more sense than the other.
22:44:17 <int-e> that's lawmakers for you...
22:44:28 <int-e> ...always finding new complicat... err I mean compromises.
22:44:32 <tswett> If I called a restaurant where people normally order, wait fifteen minutes, and eat there, but I wanted to take the foot out instead, I'd tell them, "I'd like to place a carryout order."
22:45:20 <tswett> I'd then probably refer to the food as "carryout".
22:46:06 <tswett> If it were a fast food restaurant, I'd just say "to go" when ordering (and I certainly wouldn't order ahead), and then I'd just refer to the food as "fast food" instead of "carryout".
22:46:41 <tswett> Or "food to go", I guess.
22:47:17 <tswett> "We got some food to go at McDonald's." "We got some carryout at Some Casual Restaurant."
22:50:21 <oerjan> int-e: i may be slightly confused, the exemption was half the vat, and possibly carryout got all of it.
22:53:55 <oerjan> *take-away, let's not absorb new terminology nilly-willy here
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22:57:27 <oerjan> apparently they've shaved some off the exemption, now it's 15% vat for food compared to 25% in general.
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23:16:07 <boily> chellopumpkin. shellochaf.
23:20:55 * oerjan learns that the US doesn't generally have VAT
23:22:13 <shachaf> coppro: Were you responding to something I said before or just saying hi?
23:22:23 <shachaf> If I was going to say something before I've forgotten what it is.
23:23:45 <coppro> I was agreeing with oerjan
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23:33:14 <zzo38> OpenMPT can load the old 15-samples MODs, but cannot save them. AmigaMML now has the capability to save such files if you tell it to do so. It is the only one or are there others (not counting Ultimate SoundTracker)?
23:34:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Esowiki201529A/芝麻油]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42954 * Esowiki201529A * (+205) Created page with "香油，又称芝麻油、麻油，是从芝麻中提炼出来的，因具有特别香味，故称为香油。 按榨取方法一般分为机榨香油和小磨香油，小磨..."
23:38:09 <zzo38> It looks like OpenMPT loads "FLT8"s too but not "EXO8"s; I read somewhere they have the same format but it doesn't seem to do that in OpenMPT at least.
23:39:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[User:Esowiki201529A/芝麻油]]": This is a wiki, not a clipboard
23:43:53 <boily> I wonder what kind of spam it was of.
23:45:08 <oerjan> sesame oil, not spam hth
23:45:26 <oerjan> and it was pretty short, so most is in that edit description.
23:45:54 <oerjan> it was just ... wtf is e putting it on our wiki
23:53:03 <oerjan> <tswett> But this example is fully general, because every group can be seen as a permutation group. <-- boolean algebra of sets...
23:53:35 <tswett> oerjan: yeah, when someone says "VAT", I think "that European tax thing".
23:53:40 <oerjan> or distributive lattice of sets, almost the same
23:55:02 <oerjan> tswett: according to wikipedia there are a _few_ other places than the US that don't have it, but it's by no means just "european". although the french apparently did it first.
23:55:49 <oerjan> so it's really approaching another imperial / metric split at this point.
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02:11:36 <ORin> the poor dogs are so scared from the fireworks
02:13:36 <zzo38> Victoria day is tomorrow; I wanted to go to Victoria today but now I can't
02:14:07 <oerjan> oh hm what's today then
02:14:34 <zzo38> Sunday, in my timezone
02:14:48 <oerjan> right, so what happens in toronto on may 17
02:15:01 <zzo38> I don't know; I don't live in Toronto.
02:15:03 <oerjan> or possibly canada in general
02:17:08 <oerjan> hm google doesn't give any big hint
02:17:52 <oerjan> i suppose i can look at this blogto.com thing
02:19:26 <oerjan> ORin: tell the poor dogs they're clearly hallucinating hth
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02:23:04 <ORin> nah, the little one has gone catatonic and the big one won't stop shivering
02:24:25 <ORin> Anyway I'm at my grandparents' house north of North Bay
02:24:50 <ORin> and teh neighbors are letting fireworks off on the other end of the lake
02:27:22 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: connect: does not exist (Connection refused)
02:28:10 <oerjan> hm it did that yesterday too, but it's worked in between
02:28:16 <zzo38> CYYB 180200Z 12005KT 15SM SCT050 BKN240 20/13 A3005 RMK SC3CI3 LAST STFD OBS/NEXT 181100 UTC SLP176 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
02:28:33 <lambdabot> ENVA 180150Z 12006KT 9999 FEW003 SCT026 BKN031 04/03 Q1009 RMK WIND 670FT 16006KT
02:28:51 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: connect: does not exist (Connection refused)
02:29:04 <oerjan> oh maybe it actually doesn't exist
02:29:57 <oerjan> ORin: you and the dogs are hallucinating the whole place hth
02:31:51 <ORin> environment canada claims it does, but they would say that, woudln't they
02:32:25 <ORin> also those temps make no sense, it is like 9 degrees here
02:33:11 <ORin> we are north of north bay anyway
02:34:11 <oerjan> north of any place in canada = damn cold, that's logic
02:34:44 <oerjan> north of any place in canada with north in the name = probably a glacier
02:35:01 <ORin> https://www.google.ca/maps/@46.721202,-79.794887,3a,66.8y,90t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sKIVOOhW5dO57alorQ3gkcw!2e0
02:35:09 <ORin> that's basically where I am
02:38:00 <zzo38> Why it work for ENVA but the connection is refuse for CYYB? Let's try some other Canadian stuff too let's see
02:38:05 <lambdabot> CYVR 180200Z 21005KT 200V260 25SM FEW080 FEW240 16/12 A3004 RMK AC1CI1 TR TCU SLP172
02:44:47 <ORin> Damn, there isn't a good google maps street view that directly shows the house. trees in the way, picture seams, and those idiots didn't use very good cameras so you can arely see anything across frenchmans bay
02:49:39 <ORin> someone should take a camera to the centre of the bay and take a panorama
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02:50:32 <ORin> oerjan: it is not that cold, but in winter we do do ice fishing
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03:46:14 <zzo38> Although programs to syntax highlight TeX codes exist, you cannot really properly syntax highlight a TeX code without executing it either, if it or any file it includes has any catcode changes; most don't though so it can usually work. But even without that many will do some bad job, such as not knowing what format you are using (Plain TeX or LaTeX; it is easy to guess but still there is the mistake), and a few other things (such as trigraphs).
03:48:13 <zzo38> Furthermore I haven't seen a METAFONT syntax highlighter, but that is a bit easier since you can't change catcodes (although the "input" command accepts plain text and that might affect something too). Also some syntax highlighter for Literate Haskell will improperly interpret bird-style as LaTeX-style; knowing the style isn't even necessary since they can even be combined and should be very easy to check anyways, but they still get it wrong...
03:50:17 <zzo38> I also haven't seen syntax highlighters for RDF or for Lemon. But I have seen Whitespace syntax highlighters, which can be a useful thing to have even if you don't program in Whitespace.
03:53:07 <zzo38> There are also different variants of BASIC and SQL.
03:59:58 <zzo38> Make syntax highlighting programming language and then such codes can be converted into other programming language codes. I wrote a IRC syntax highlighter in PHP, but isn't modular and output format is only ANSI codes, and it require PHP.
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04:19:13 <zzo38> In SQLite, some words are keywords or not depending on context.
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05:30:42 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: is it possible to emit some kind of "parsed" tokens from TeX?
05:31:03 <lifthrasiir> that is, I think it is possible to highlight code based on individual character's catcode
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06:50:53 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: Yes, that is possible, but the catcodes can be changed; if you execute it then you can figure out the catcodes
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07:15:20 <lifthrasiir> zzo38: is it possible for tokens inside macros to be reparsed with updated catcode assignments?
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08:28:14 <mroman_> zzo38: some bad haskell syntax highlighters think foo' x = x is a character
08:28:20 <mroman_> and will highlight everything after ' in character colour
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11:32:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42955&oldid=42806 * 216.11.243.3 * (-10982)
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12:33:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42956&oldid=42955 * Oerjan * (+10982) Undo revision 42955 by [[Special:Contributions/216.11.243.3|216.11.243.3]] ([[User talk:216.11.243.3|talk]])
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12:47:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42957&oldid=42956 * Vriskanon * (+56) /* Implementations */ Added APLBAONWSJAS
12:59:00 <mroman_> I'm ashamed that swiss government requires health insurances and the like to pay for homeopathy :(
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13:26:13 <J_Arcane> Forth in Javascript, sort of. https://github.com/sgentle/catenary
13:32:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[APLBAONWSJAS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42958&oldid=42949 * SuperJedi224 * (+29)
13:37:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42959&oldid=42952 * SuperJedi224 * (-32)
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15:22:28 <ORin> mroman are you from switzerland?
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15:25:10 <ORin> a syntax highlighter language sounds like a very good idea
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15:30:07 <HackEgo> olist 986: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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16:12:51 <zzo38> lifthrasiir: I am late, but, no a macro contains only tokens that are already parsed. However, a token list register can be converted into a string and then stored into a file and reparsed (token list registers aren't normally expanded if \the is used)
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17:19:47 <zzo38> Is there a proper way to make a to-do list in Redmine? What I did is make a master "to-do list" issue which is closed, and the issues I want to add to the to-do list precede the to-do list itself; any other issues are simply suggestions and are not yet on the to-do list. And then the custom query can be used to search for open issues that precede the to-do list.
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18:11:01 <Taneb> Aaaaaah exam in 14 hours
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18:42:16 <ORin> https://github.com/orenwatson/hylytr
18:43:48 <ORin> implemented after utterly failing to make anything highlight good with sed
18:45:28 <ORin> a highlighting script consists of tuples like
18:46:18 <ORin> blue default :/\*: :\*/:
18:46:34 <ORin> fgcolor bgcolor startregex endregex
18:46:47 <ORin> the regexes can start and end with any one character
18:47:25 <int-e> Taneb: well, get some sleep
18:48:12 <ORin> the end regex may be omited. if so, only the part matching the start regex is colored
18:49:54 <ORin> how does that sound?
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18:52:04 <int-e> it's supposed to make noises?
18:52:30 <ORin> lol. no, i mean, uh...
18:53:25 <ORin> is there any improvement or suggestion?
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18:56:25 <ORin> hmm I'm not sure if anyone uses underline or crossout for syntax highlighting
18:57:00 <ais523> ORin: those used to syntax-highlight diffs, sometimes
18:57:09 <Melvar> Idris uses underline for semantic hilighting.
18:57:11 <ais523> possibly because it doesn't clash with other highlighting
18:57:18 <idris-bot> Control.Category.id : Category cat => cat a a
18:58:12 <ais523> huh, that even gets through my formatting filter
18:58:31 <ais523> actually I strongly suspect that it's just implemented by setting all 16 foreground colors to white, likewise all 16 background colors to black
19:00:52 <ORin> I might as well allow one or more style names before teh first color
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19:02:42 <ORin> zero or more rather
19:05:36 <ORin> reverse underline strikeout
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19:48:12 <b_jonas> Phantom__Hoover: someone did use )
19:48:24 <HackEgo> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
19:48:33 <b_jonas> yeah, one of the jevalbot instances
19:50:01 <int-e> (it could be worse: at least the space is mandatory. IIRC)
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19:51:43 <b_jonas> int-e: yeah, I have mandatory space as an option for jevalbot, and I think it's probably turned on in most instances
19:51:54 <b_jonas> ]definitely turned on in my instance
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20:04:40 <Melvar> int-e: With idris-bot it’s not so much that the space is mandatory but that the prefix contains a space.
20:05:41 <Melvar> Phantom__Hoover: oerjan insisted I use ( to balance the existing ) in the prefixes list.
20:06:34 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: because otherwise it can't be expressed in de-facto Underload
20:07:00 <ais523> technically there's an escape syntax but nobody uses it
20:09:08 <Melvar> I recently made idris-bot join another channel that has a lambdabot instance, and decided on the prefix “>> ” for there.
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20:13:29 <b_jonas> ais523: hmm, that sounds like a challenge. an underload interpretr isn't too difficult to write.
20:13:44 <b_jonas> (at least if it doesn't want to optimize)
20:13:57 <ais523> b_jonas: you mean something to do
20:14:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I mean, making an interpreter that supports the escape syntax
20:14:28 <ais523> I don't think people consider escapes part of Underload any more
20:14:43 <ais523> you could certainly do it, though, it isn't hard
20:14:44 <b_jonas> how about an optional part?
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20:28:12 <Phantom__Hoover> ais523, is there not another big divergence between the underload spec and the implementations?
20:28:42 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: are you thinking of something in particular?
20:29:34 <ais523> that isn't really an impl bug though
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20:30:50 <ais523> doing exactly what you expected is one possible outcome of UB
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20:40:09 <Phantom__Hoover> the first episode after hignfy's election special (where farage, miliband and clegg's resignations were all announced during recording)
20:40:37 <Phantom__Hoover> they did a bit about chukka umuna's leadership bid and then 5 seconds later his withdrawal was announced
20:40:38 <ais523> hmm, now I'm suddenly interested in what Phantom__Hoover's opinion on the election result is
20:41:23 <zzo38> I think that "hylytr" has some of its own problems, such as dependence on specific colors and the only thing it can do is matching regular expressions, while some need more than that. Also isn't as good if you want string delimiters to use a different color than the text of the string. At least, the format isn't depending on specific output format such as HTML and ANSI and so on, nor depending on specific programming languages.
20:41:24 <Phantom__Hoover> after the exit polls i got a bit drunk and went to sleep in a bad mood
20:41:56 <ais523> from my point of view, I think the majority might be too large, even though it's one of the smallest even
20:42:09 <ais523> the Conservatives need someone to keep them in check, possibly it can be their own back-benchers
20:43:25 <Phantom__Hoover> tory backbenchers wouldn't keep them 'in check', it'd pull them further right
20:43:47 <ais523> not every issue is right versus left
20:44:08 <ORin> zzo38: interesting commnet about the string delimiters. Maybe if allowed a option to have the color be inclusive or exclusive of the regexes?
20:44:11 <Phantom__Hoover> the best you could hope for would be the party collapsing under the weight of its own shitheadedness but with a referendum promised they're not going to see a howard-style rebellion
20:48:12 <ais523> presumably the one that was leader of the conservatives several years ago
20:48:28 <ais523> oh, that makes a little more sense
20:48:39 <Taneb> ais523, the only politician Howard I could think of was John
20:48:46 <ais523> hmm, maybe I'm confused
20:48:48 <Taneb> And he didn't really face that much rebellion?
20:49:22 <Taneb> Oooh Michael Howard is a person
20:49:27 <ais523> who was the politician that was asked the same question like 21 times by Jeremy Paxman?
20:49:33 <ais523> that's the person I was thinking of
20:50:28 <zzo38> ORin: Can you show example of what you mean?
20:50:40 <Phantom__Hoover> also extremely funny is ukip having a backbench revolt with only 1 mp
20:52:14 <ais523> Phantom__Hoover: they could do that, technically? the MP in question isn't part of the party leadership AFAIK
20:52:28 <ais523> if that actually decides a vote, it'd cause utter chaos
20:52:33 <ORin> zzo38: well, we could say for instance
20:53:07 <Phantom__Hoover> carswell has called for farage to 'take a break' (i.e. resign)
20:53:16 <ORin> green default :'[^']':n
20:53:16 <ais523> oh, I meant in Parliament
20:53:18 <zzo38> Your regex to match strings is only one; if you have two I suppose is easier
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21:01:33 <ORin> we can have a modifier before the colors that says for instance left-inclusive, right-inclusive, exclusive or inclusive
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21:02:02 <ORin> So that a format like
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21:03:14 <ORin> left-inclusive red default :": :":
21:03:37 <ORin> would have the left quote red but not the right quote
21:04:19 <zzo38> Yes, I can see how you mean, but at first I did not understand because the file you have has only one regex for parsing strings therefore doesn't seem to do.
21:04:52 <ORin> yeah. I never really considered wanting to do what you suggested
21:05:37 <ORin> but it makes sense especially for raw strings
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22:10:06 <Somelauw> Hello, I'm creating an esolang on the wiki.
22:13:42 <ais523> unless it's a BF derivative?
22:13:48 <ais523> or, well, everyone has to get started somewhere
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22:18:18 <Somelauw> unfortunately, yes. But it least it's not a direct mapping from one set of commands to a different one.
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22:19:47 <ORin> scrip7 is technically a bf derivative, in that the + - > < , . commands have similar meanings
22:20:02 <ORin> So my first language was technically one
22:23:10 <ais523> at one point I was seriously tempted to define + - > < , . in Overload so that it could interpret commentless BF programs directly, but for different reasons
22:23:58 <ORin> scrip7 can't do that. you'd have to rplace each + with a+1 or something
22:23:59 <b_jonas> ais523: um, for that you'd need to define [ and ] that way too. or are those already defined that way?
22:24:05 <b_jonas> what's Overload by the way?
22:24:18 <ais523> [ and ] did something else, unfortunately
22:24:19 <j-bot> ais523: and ] did ,"_`(0 { 2 | +/ .*)@.(1 { 2 | +/ .*) unfortunately
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22:24:36 <ais523> j-bot: that is beautiful
22:24:36 <j-bot> ais523: that is beautiful
22:24:55 <ORin> what the fuck just
22:24:58 <ais523> b_jonas: Overload was one of the first esolangs I started designing (not /the/ first)
22:25:07 <b_jonas> then it would probably not be able to interpret most commentless bf programs
22:25:14 <ais523> it was crazily big and complex
22:25:23 <ais523> Underload is a subset of it
22:25:32 <ais523> (when I noticed a smallish subset was TC)
22:25:40 <shachaf> my bf derivative has a double-sided infinite tape and wraps around on overflow/underflow
22:25:59 <shachaf> the difference is that + decrements and - increments, and < goes right and > goes left
22:26:39 <ais523> shachaf: the point being that it's equivalent to "regular" BF?
22:26:49 <ais523> or does that use negative numbers?
22:26:53 <b_jonas> shachaf: is the tape infinite in both the < and > directions?
22:27:08 <ORin> the > and < commands in scrip7 are redundant actually
22:27:11 <shachaf> b_jonas: that's what i meant by double-sided
22:27:29 <shachaf> i guess it could mean that each point at the tape has two values
22:27:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42960 * Somelauw * (+2515) Created page with "[[Random Brainfuck]] is an extension to [[Brainfuck]]. It supports all the operations that Brainfuck supports, but has one extra operation i.e. the question mark (?) which ove..."
22:27:35 <shachaf> anyway the point is the thing ais523 said
22:27:42 <b_jonas> I thought it's double-sided like casette tape is, as in, there's two values in each cell
22:28:02 <ORin> becuase you could do O+1 instead of a>1 and O+2 instead of A>1 etc
22:28:03 <ais523> shachaf: you missed an opportunity, you're not far from generating /ˈæmbiːɛf/ (http://esolangs.org/wiki//%CB%88%C3%A6mbi%CB%90%C9%9Bf/) there
22:28:44 <ais523> one of my favourite areas of language design is "similar to an existing language, but you have control flow problems that make it not obviously TC"
22:29:37 <b_jonas> ais523: does the machine in the ioccc 1992/buzzard entry count as such?
22:29:49 <ORin> hmm the ? op could make it possible to do certain problems faster
22:29:57 <ais523> b_jonas: I forget which one that is
22:30:03 <b_jonas> though it wouldn't be TC even with control flow, because it's finite
22:30:10 <b_jonas> the memory is limited to finite
22:30:17 <b_jonas> to however many variables you declare
22:30:25 <b_jonas> ais523: http://www.de.ioccc.org/years-spoiler.html#1992_buzzard.1
22:30:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42961&oldid=42960 * Somelauw * (-10) /* Examples */ More consistent notation
22:30:42 <ais523> ORin: in competitive esolangs like BF Joust or FukYorBrane, that sort of command can be brokenly powerful
22:31:12 <b_jonas> finitely many int variables you have to declare, statements are like x = y; x += y; x -= y; x *= y; x /= y; where y is variable or literal, and the whole thing in loop
22:31:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42962&oldid=42961 * Somelauw * (+0) /* Implemention */
22:33:05 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm pretty sure that, with bignums, that's TC
22:33:28 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but this uses fixed size
22:33:30 <ais523> it reminds me of no-control-flow INTERCAL, but easier
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22:33:42 <ais523> well with fixed size it's obviously sub-TC, but that's mentioned in the hint file
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22:34:02 <b_jonas> but anyway, the entry shows that he can emulate control flow
22:34:09 <b_jonas> so the lack of control flow isn't a problem
22:34:26 <b_jonas> and with only constant factor overhead too
22:34:43 <ORin> i was thinking
22:34:45 <b_jonas> he doesn't, like, write a number of statements doubly exponential in the size of integers or something
22:34:55 <b_jonas> that would be impractical in ioccc
22:35:11 <ORin> suppose you have a local branch instruction and the ability to multiply
22:35:30 <b_jonas> the problem is, of course, if you just add arrays, it gets much easier, because array indexing makes conditionals easy to implement
22:36:06 <ais523> oh, it was expressionless INTERCAL I was thinking about, I think?
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22:36:26 <b_jonas> expressionless intercal? wow
22:36:42 <ais523> I think you maybe have to allow constants
22:36:47 <Somelauw> why is it that the wiki keeps logging me out
22:37:11 <b_jonas> no computed come from or computed ignore
22:37:21 <ais523> yep, you use "computed" abstain for data storage
22:37:27 <ais523> where the value you're computing is a fixed number
22:37:42 <b_jonas> isn't there a non-computed abstain with line number too?
22:37:51 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, but it can only store a single bit of data
22:38:00 <b_jonas> like DO ABSTAIN FROM (4) as opposed to DO ABSTAIN FROM 4
22:38:09 <b_jonas> um yes? and this is the same
22:38:14 <ais523> I meant DO ABSTAIN #1 FROM (4)
22:38:35 <ais523> it's like regular ABSTAIN but it stacks
22:38:41 <ais523> if you ABSTAIN twice, you have to REINSTATE twice to match
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22:39:03 <ais523> (and you can DO ABSTAIN #2 from (4) to ABSTAIN twice in one command)
22:39:07 <ais523> it's a C-INTERCAL extension
22:39:23 <ais523> http://c.intercal.org.uk/manual/rgnvnn38.htm#ABSTAIN-and-REINSTATE
22:40:33 <ais523> C-INTERCAL doesn't allow a computed line number in ABSTAIN
22:40:47 <b_jonas> if it has computed come from
22:40:51 <ais523> it doesn't allow computed line numbers in most places
22:40:54 <b_jonas> how is computed abstain more difficult?
22:40:58 <ais523> CLC-INTERCAL does, which I think is a shame
22:41:25 <ais523> and it is actually not necessarily "more difficult", but it requires different code
22:41:27 <b_jonas> I mean, I know it is very powerful and can't be compiled effectively,
22:41:41 <ais523> COME FROM aims at a particular location in the program, ABSTAIN affects a range
22:42:14 <b_jonas> doesn't abstain sort of adds a come from at the statement, and makes it jump to the next statement?
22:42:24 <b_jonas> yeah, it's not quite the same
22:42:46 <ais523> I think you can do computed ABSTAIN anyway via C or Befunge? not sure though
22:43:27 <ais523> you know what, I think the online manual is out of date
22:43:34 <ais523> b_jonas: I added an FFI to C-INTERCAL, because I could
22:43:45 <ais523> but it doesn't seem to be documented in the online manual
22:43:50 <ais523> I think the online version of the manual is just out of date
22:44:07 <b_jonas> that doesn't sound like easy to implement
22:44:18 <ais523> b_jonas: things like this get implemented specifically /because/ they're hard to implement
22:44:28 <ais523> yep, online manual's out of date, it's in the version in the repo
22:44:40 <b_jonas> like computed come from and that equation solver stuff
22:44:42 <ais523> nope, the FFI can't abstain and reinstate
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22:45:26 <b_jonas> if you can just call any C function, doesn't that make the language trivial to program in? or is there a catch?
22:46:32 <fizzie> Perhaps the catch is that real INTERCAL programmers will look at you funny?
22:46:39 <ais523> it can: CREATE; COME FROM; extract CREATE arguments; FORGET; read variables; contain line labels; NEXT; RESUME; write variables; write to CREATE arguments; and NEXT FROM
22:47:00 <ais523> and the catch is that sprinkling INTERCAL control flow throughout your C (or Befunge, fwiw) will make people think you're insane
22:48:27 <zzo38> I suppose it help in case you want to play sounds with a INTERCAL program or to do other stuff that INTERCAL doesn't have commands to do but you do have C codes to do it.
22:48:34 <ais523> yes, that's the intended use
22:48:46 <ais523> well, in as much as anything in C-INTERCAL has an intended use
22:50:22 <ais523> ooh, I just had the greatest FFI idea ever
22:51:10 <ais523> an FFI to… CLC-INTERCAL!
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22:53:00 <zzo38> Or, of course, if you like to mix up many programming languages. Maybe you can even use such a thing in order to compile INTERCAL codes with SQL codes; I don't know how well it can do such thing or not though, since then you also need a support in compiler to make a syntax block. Similar thing may apply for adding BASIC/SQL/INTERCAL/C/Befunge/Lisp all together
22:53:01 <b_jonas> do you mean from C-INTERCAL directly?
22:53:05 <fizzie> In a shmup, in a smuch.
22:53:30 <ais523> b_jonas: yes, although the two systems are sufficiently internally different
22:53:52 <ais523> that I think the easiest way would be some sort of server that communicates everything that's happening and translates instructions back and forth
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22:56:53 <zzo38> Do you know if it is possible to write extensions to dynamically link into SoX?
23:04:57 <zzo38> It says you can add new effects and formats but doesn't seems to mention any way to load DLLs into SoX
23:05:28 <fizzie> I thought it was, but I can't find any details quickly either.
23:06:53 <fizzie> The libsox manual mentions something like: "sox_format_init function performs some required initialization related to all file format handlers. If compiled with dynamic library support then this will detect and initialize all external libraries." Although maybe that's just referring to libraries used by the baked-in formats.
23:07:34 <fizzie> "This manual page is both incomplete and out of date."
23:10:05 <fizzie> It does documentedly support LADSPA plugins as effects, though.
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23:10:27 <fizzie> (Via the "ladspa" effect.)
23:12:48 <zzo38> Yes, but I meant file format support and directly SoX effects too
23:13:14 <fizzie> I can't figure out how, although I really thought it was possible.
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23:15:34 <ais523> not sure quite what I typoed
23:15:47 <ais523> but it was basically the equivalent of spamming alt-tab really really fast
23:16:13 <fizzie> Incidentally, I wrote my first SQLite3 extension the other day. Although I don't think I'll publish it, and I'm sure something like it already exists; it provides functions 'ip' (turns a textual numeric IPv4/6 address to a 4/16-byte blob), 'ip_fmt' (the reverse), 'ip_isv4' and 'ip_isv6' (just shorthands for length(x) = 4/16) and 'ip_in(ip, net, len)' which checks whether the first argument is ...
23:16:19 <fizzie> ... in the network defined by the second and third -- as in, ip_in(ip('1.2.3.4'), ip('1.2.3.0'), 24) is 1.
23:16:22 <fizzie> (I'm using it for a network firewall log thing.)
23:20:04 <ais523> fizzie: don't use 1.2.3.4 in examples :-(
23:20:11 <ais523> that IP is apparently unusable because of all the traffic going to it
23:20:29 <ais523> (someone put a server there for a while just to see what happened, although 1.1.1.1 was apparently worse)
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23:23:37 <fizzie> It was unusable before I mentioned it on #esoteric, and has been reserved like that for a long time now, but fair point.
23:24:33 <fizzie> I can never remember any of 192.0.2.0/24, 198.51.100.0/24 or 203.0.113.0/24, though.
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23:31:02 <zzo38> You can use number which are too big to fit in 8-bits, as the example, and then you can know for sure is not valid. Maybe there are also some ranges already define as invalid therefore you can use it
23:31:30 <ORin> 256.256.256.256
23:32:48 <zzo38> fizzie: O, OK, well I don't really have a list of a lot of SQLite extensions although I have written a few. If you write the one to connect to internet might be useful though. Including to access weather forecasts and movie times and so on from SQLite command-line instead of from the web-browser and so on
23:33:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42963&oldid=42959 * SuperJedi224 * (+235)
23:35:00 <zzo38> However one thing that makes it difficult to use SQLite to access specific kind of data by internet is that virtual table modules cannot read LIMIT and OFFSET clauses.
23:35:30 <fizzie> The three that I mentioned not remembering are the three that are reserved for use as examples in documentation. (RFC 5737.)
23:36:44 <ORin> does anyone have the phone number 1234567
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23:39:09 <fizzie> Probably depends on where you are. I'm sure it exists in *some* system.
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23:42:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42964&oldid=42963 * SuperJedi224 * (-69) Fixed a potential bug with '
23:43:20 <fizzie> I had a friend with 654309, which was pretty easy to remember. As evidenced by the fact that I remember it still, 20 years later. I don't think it's been valid for the last maybe 15 years, either.
23:44:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42965&oldid=42964 * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
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23:45:50 <zzo38> One letter in 2600 asked what is the oldest telephone number still valid for the same thing (rather than now being different people's telephone number); a reply said that it is probably that of Hotel Pensylvania (which is still PEN-5000)
23:46:20 <fizzie> My grandparents had 21842 and 22859, which are also not so useful any longer. (3/4 are dead, and the remaining one is 300 km from the phone, if the line is even still there.)
23:46:47 <fizzie> Would be nice to reclaim the storage space used by these numbers.
23:48:06 <zzo38> I found the skelform.c and skeleff.c files of SoX which show you how to write the new format/effect for SoX but does not tell you how SoX will load them once you have written them.
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01:37:54 <Sgeo> My Facebook page broke
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01:40:29 <lambdabot> CYUL 190121Z 35004KT 15SM -SHRA OVC037 21/19 A2991 RMK SC8 SLP128 DENSITY ALT 800FT
01:40:40 <boily> pfeuh. -SHRA my humid ass.
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01:44:50 <lambdabot> KOAK 190053Z 26015KT 10SM OVC018 14/09 A3008 RMK AO2 SLP186 T01440089
01:45:26 <shachaf> i don't know what these numbers and letters mean but i like how there are so many of them
01:46:33 <ais523> I have a feeling that it would be useful to know what they mean
01:46:47 <ais523> also, lambdabot's answering metar requests?
01:46:50 <ais523> I thought that was metasepia
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01:47:24 <shachaf> It's been lambdabot for a while now.
01:47:31 <shachaf> metasepia disappeared or something.
01:48:52 <boily> <_<'... it hasn't disappeared. well, not totally. >_>'... *whistle innocently*...
01:49:05 <ais523> I don't really think of lambdabot as being a #esoteric bot
01:49:10 <ais523> or at least, a bot that would add features just for us
01:50:12 <boily> and int-e is oerjan's evil twin, therefore lambdie is esoteric.
01:54:07 <lambdabot> Plugin `metar' failed with: connect: does not exist (Connection refused)
01:54:21 <ORin> Why doesn't North Bay exist?!?!?!
02:00:34 <boily> @ask int-e what is your plugin's source? is it the NOAA's NWS?
02:00:46 <boily> @tell int-e (the plugin being metars hth)
02:01:01 <boily> @tell int-e (METAR, if you prefer proper capitalisation.)
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02:07:38 <zzo38> I don't know why CYYB doesn't work
02:19:58 <ORin> since when does sean connery appear in buddy cop movies
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03:41:25 <oerjan> <ais523> technically there's an escape syntax but nobody uses it <-- the underload escaping includes absolutely no way of mismatching (), otherwise people might actually have found it useful...
03:43:00 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> technically there's an escape syntax but nobody uses it <-- the underload escaping includes absolutely no way of mismatching (), otherwise people might actually have found it useful...
03:50:15 <Taneb> Help I am nervous about my linear algebra exam in 4 hours
03:52:37 <oerjan> this exam will be determinant of your entire future
03:53:18 <oerjan> you can get nowhere without that basis, everything else is orthogonal hth
03:57:04 <ais523> I didn't realise IRC had pun threads :-(
03:57:31 <oerjan> it's not much of a thread if no one is joining in
03:57:40 <oerjan> also i'm sure we've had them before.
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04:11:28 <Taneb> oerjan, my revision has been characteristic, so my knowledge is minimal
04:12:22 <shachaf> oerjan alone is more of a pun threat
04:13:59 <Taneb> Seeing as I only just worked out how to diagonalize a matrix...
04:14:20 <shachaf> Taneb: have you worked out why to diagonalize a matrix twh
04:14:40 <shachaf> you can teach me linear algebra if that'll help you revise for your exam
04:15:11 <Taneb> (that is, I don't know why to diagonalize a matrix)
04:15:38 <Taneb> (it makes calculating the derivative easier, but by this point you've already got the derivative)
04:16:50 <oerjan> Taneb: it also lets you compute matrix powers easily
04:16:54 <zzo38> But if the game is easy then it is not quite good enough
04:17:59 <shachaf> Some good games are very easy.
04:18:04 <Taneb> oerjan, that may be true
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04:18:34 <shachaf> another property of this game is that it makes my window manager crash
04:20:21 <zzo38> It may be good, that doesn't mean it is quite good enough
04:21:51 <oerjan> Taneb: you know the formulas for fibonacci numbers involving powers of the golden ratio? they essentially come from diagonalizing [[0,1],[1,1]] and using that to calculate powers of the latter.
04:22:38 <zzo38> O, I didn't know that!
04:24:34 <shachaf> I didn't know that either.
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04:26:57 <zzo38> What FPGA-on-FPGA implementations are available which aren't vendorlocked?
04:27:43 <ais523> based on experience with FPGA impls, I'd strongly expect all those to be vendorlocked (and quite possibly also containing logic bombs in the free version preventing them being used for anything important)
04:28:18 <zzo38> I mean free-open-source ones, even if they can't use Verilog
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04:28:50 <zzo38> And are generally for academics
04:31:06 <zzo38> I have read somewhere about a FPGA overlay called ZUMA but not much details or download or anything like that
04:33:51 <zzo38> Maybe we can make up a new kind of FPGA and make up an implementation of it that work in other FPGA too, and can also be made as the IC by itself later on too, and it is still compatible.
04:36:12 <ais523> I wouldn't be surprised if FPGAs were used to test new FPGA designs
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04:40:46 <zzo38> I have seen information about a FPGA built from discrete 74xx logics; maybe such a thing can also be implemented in a FPGA I don't know how well it works.
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04:59:28 <zzo38> How slow and inefficient is it exactly to make FPGA-on-FPGA?
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05:28:07 <zzo38> RDF graphs don't have a "root node" like XML documents do, therefore I made up a way of designating something like a "root node".
05:29:37 <zzo38> The way is this: A node with an edge of type <gopher://zzo38computer.org/1ns/meta:primary> leading out of it is considered like a "root node". Do you think this way OK or what else your opinion of it?
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05:33:41 <zzo38> Some people that use RDF seem to hate it
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05:35:59 <zzo38> How can I get weather forecasts by ICAO codes (rather than only current conditions)?
05:38:27 <Nihilumbra> Knees weak arms sweaty when your mom come home and make teh spaghetti
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05:41:12 <fungot> Nihilumbra: translation from plautus. ( 1850), produce the first and most respectable minorities in the house of commons
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05:41:34 <oerjan> zzo38: i think that's what TAFs are
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05:45:12 <zzo38> Can you please be more specific?
05:47:05 <oerjan> zzo38: e.g. allmetsat.com has forecasts
05:47:55 <oerjan> oh and here's wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terminal_aerodrome_forecast
05:49:13 <oerjan> fungot: i didn't know plautus wrote about spaghetti
05:49:14 <fungot> oerjan: the chief magistrate derives all his authority from the people, as of almost every man who goes to them in the end the better for hearing sermons and joining in public prayers. but we cannot be surprised at the mildness of the atmosphere, that the act of king william, nor any fnord but " lights out." you do not propose to fill your magazine page with long words as it does. it is a grand and beautiful consummation, and i
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05:56:06 <zzo38> I want to fix my weather service on gopher to display both current weather and forecasts.
05:56:38 <zzo38> I also want to support such thing with SQLite, and to allow many other internet services on SQLite.
05:56:42 <zzo38> And also on gopher.
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07:44:07 <myname> https://twitter.com/dijkstracula/status/600361570288316416/photo/1
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08:14:58 <int-e> @tell boily I used aviationweather.gov which at this time returns one (non-working) IP more than www.aviationweather.com; the latter is indeed an alias for www.aviationweather.l.noaa.gov
08:17:06 <lambdabot> LOWI 190750Z VRB02KT 9999 FEW012 SCT027 BKN040 13/11 Q1011 NOSIG
08:17:30 <int-e> So I guess this currently has a 2 in 3 chance of working.
08:24:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42966&oldid=42962 * Keymaker * (+89) Added a small program.
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10:18:35 <oerjan> are you in such a channel that you would know?
10:18:58 <int-e> oerjan: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/haskell/15.05.19 around 2:44
10:20:48 <oerjan> so what did you change
10:21:13 <int-e> I reverted https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/commit/9783b17fb08923956aec3b440f68af50dc7f0701 more or less
10:21:14 <oerjan> b_jonas: there's not actually an @info command hth
10:21:24 <int-e> (I did not, actually, update the branch yet)
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10:24:02 <oerjan> int-e: well then you still have the ghci bug
10:24:32 <int-e> yeah but it's really a ghci bug :P
10:25:53 <int-e> I felt that it was the best I could do to stop mauke without spending hours of time on the problem (which I should currently spend on other things...).
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10:26:16 * int-e is procrastinating nevertheless, of course.
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10:27:07 <lambdabot> shachaf is in ##crypto, #ghc, #haskell-gsoc, #haskell-infrastructure and #haskell-lens. I don't know when shachaf last spoke.
10:28:42 <int-e> Note that I may disable it again. I don't know whether it was disabled due to odd behavior (like forgetting what a person last said) or whether it was causing other problems as well (say, leaking memory).
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10:50:00 <int-e> "Please contact your system administrator." ... haha. "Hi, int-e, did you, perhaps, move lambdabot to a different host?" -- "Why, yes I did, why?" - "Well, ssh is complaining that the IP address and ssh key of the host changed." -- "Well, that's to be expected." ...
10:52:15 <oerjan> int-e: at least your sysadmin is always responsive twh
10:52:17 <lambdabot> int-e said 2h 37m 18s ago: I used aviationweather.gov which at this time returns one (non-working) IP more than www.aviationweather.com; the latter is indeed an alias for www.aviationweather.l.noaa.gov
10:53:52 <int-e> boily: the .com there should be .gov
10:54:07 <boily> int-ello. for metasepia I used ftp://tgftp.nws.noaa.gov/data/observations/metar/stations hth
10:54:32 <int-e> and I changed the bot to use www.aviationweather.gov now, so the bogus IP should not cause trouble anymore.
10:54:49 <lambdabot> CYUL 191000Z 14008KT 12SM BKN038 OVC240 18/17 A2979 RMK SC5CI3 SLP087 DENSITY ALT 600FT
10:55:12 <lambdabot> CYYB 191000Z AUTO 23010KT 9SM FEW043 10/08 A2978 RMK SLP086
10:55:35 <boily> ORin: HELLORin. lambdabot now answers to CYYB!
10:55:52 <int-e> https://github.com/lambdabot/lambdabot/blob/master/lambdabot-reference-plugins/src/Lambdabot/Plugin/Reference/Metar.hs is the (not yet updated) code btw. using ftp would be a bit of work.
10:56:44 <lambdabot> ENVA 191050Z 12018KT 9999 SCT060 14/M00 Q1001 NOSIG RMK WIND 670FT 12018KT
10:56:47 <int-e> (the server name should be a configuration option really... oh well)
10:59:50 * oerjan notes DMM finally updated the mezzacotta frontpage with the new features
11:01:39 <oerjan> so i can finally use it as my daily starting point again
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11:05:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42967&oldid=42667 * Vriskanon * (+108) /* Duck inputs */ Added names for commands
11:11:22 <oerjan> somehow i don't think their new food review site is going to fly
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12:10:33 <Taneb> The exam didn't go too badly
12:10:49 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover will be glad to know that I haven't got 100%
12:11:27 <Taneb> I will be glad to know that I've otherwise done reasonably
12:11:37 <Taneb> Probably around 80 to 85%
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12:12:53 <Taneb> Except I forgot how to make a change-of-basis matrix
12:13:02 <Taneb> Or find the Jordan normal form the proper way
12:13:18 <Taneb> The way that gets me the matrices to transform it
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12:55:34 <int-e> . o O ( how hard could it be? )
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13:08:36 <Taneb> int-e, I just forgot
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13:50:17 <mroman_> I need to know what kind of category algebra in the categories of something is
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14:05:45 <J_Arcane> Whee. I survived my first ever pair programming session without *totally* humiliating myself.
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14:25:23 <oerjan> where did you hide the body
14:25:31 <Jafet> oerjan, highlander programming?
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16:53:35 <oren> 5 hours from marten river to tornto. pretty good!
16:54:46 <coppro> you should go to toronto, it's much nicer
17:02:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42968&oldid=42966 * Somelauw * (+13) /* Examples */ One code cell
17:11:55 <zzo38> I am writing the "Frequently and unfrequently asked questions" section of AmigaMML now. Do you have other question to write on?
17:16:28 <Taneb> "Why does my Computability and Complexity module seem so easy? I skipped most of the lectures and practicals"
17:20:48 <Taneb> Perhaps it is because I first got involved in computer science with Esoteric Programming Languages
17:20:59 <Taneb> Which involve the question of Computability and Complexity quite often
17:21:20 <Taneb> So I knew a lot of the content already
17:22:03 <zzo38> Yes, perhaps it can be why. Esoteric programming is the sideways and upsidedown and twisty path of computer programming.
17:22:42 <Taneb> Also this makes me quite good at figuring out what small programs do but I get hopelessly lost with large programs even when I know the language
17:24:35 <zzo38> This is so far https://devlabs.linuxassist.net/projects/amigamml/wiki/Frequently_and_unfrequently_asked_questions but if you have other question about AmigaMML then please tell me I can try to write it on there too
17:24:57 <Taneb> zzo38, "What is AmigaMML?" is a more appropriate question I have
17:26:53 <zzo38> OK now I added that one
17:27:26 <zzo38> Do you think this answer is OK? "AmigaMML is the computer program for writing music in .MOD and .XM format, by using music macro language, and by working as a filter like UNIX programming design."
17:27:47 <Taneb> I might check AmigaMML out
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17:48:30 <zzo38> Now I added a few more stuff including the license; probably some people like to know these thing too.
18:16:00 <Taneb> fungot, fnord fnord
18:16:00 <fungot> Taneb: " fables": fnord v. " fable" 16.), has told us, that the insolent cambridge pedant must be put out of the difficulty, again, a great man; and i feel confident from its antecedents, that it has never been darkness any thicker than that.
18:17:04 <zzo38> Hopefully the possibility to use CC0, Unlicense, WTFPL, and public domain, is acceptable to anyone.
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18:25:01 <int-e> . o O ( What about people who only use software because of the thrill of violating copyright? )
18:25:45 <Taneb> int-e, I think it is still copyright to zzo38
18:26:59 <int-e> Right, I guess they could write to him rejecting all those licenses... and then continue to use the software, provided that the donation to public domain is ineffective.
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18:53:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42969&oldid=42957 * 152.157.78.143 * (+55) /* TI-BASIC */ Improved it. A lot. Also removed the unnecessary colons, since if someone enters them into the program they'll mess with the If statement
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21:27:55 <ORin> 27306424661949255331376994
21:28:08 <ORin> stupid wireless password
21:28:53 <ORin> why is it so long!?!?
21:33:17 <ORin> Im' working on syntax highlighting for a few esolangs
21:35:08 <ORin> Including syntax highlighting for the highlighting files
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21:37:22 <ORin> ideally, I should also make tools to convert hylytr files into the highlighting syntaces of various editors
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21:48:26 <ORin> http://postimg.org/image/t2ldrmfo3/
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21:52:21 <lambdabot> CYUL 192100Z 22022G30KT 15SM FEW040 FEW055 25/13 A2962 RMK CU1SC1 CU TR SLP031 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
21:53:05 <lambdabot> CYOW 192100Z CCA 29020G33KT 15SM FEW055 SCT070 21/10 A2971 RMK CU2AC2 SLP062 DENSITY ALT 1300FT
21:53:23 <boily> ORin: HELLORin. are you in Toronto?
21:57:44 <lambdabot> CYYZ 192100Z 28019G24KT 15SM SCT035 BKN045 14/06 A2999 RMK SC3SC4 PRESRR SLP155
21:58:16 <ORin> gad dang it is it fuchsia or fuschia or fushia
22:00:16 <boily> fungot: fuch. sia.
22:00:16 <fungot> boily: to this judge douglas answered that they can be exhibited justly, in inseparable union, the closest correspondence, and the majority of the young gallants of rome were eager for the appearance of extraordinary fortitude in his enemies, and to all that.
22:00:33 <Phantom_Hoover> listen to titanium on a loop for about 6 hours and say the first thing that comes to mind
22:00:54 * boily sings “I am titaaaaniiiuuum ♪”
22:03:00 -!- nsh has changed nick to EmmyNoether.
22:03:01 <ORin> stone hard, machine gun fired at the ones who run, stone hard like bulletproof glauhauhauhsss!
22:03:12 -!- EmmyNoether has changed nick to nsh.
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22:03:50 <ORin> Hmm apparently I don't actually know the lyrics
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22:57:48 <ORin> I really don't understand how it can say my variable is "set but not used"
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22:58:50 <ORin> It's used as an argument to printf for god's sake
22:59:29 <tswett> So the variable's being used after the last time that it's set?
23:00:10 <ORin> Oh... I see. I accidentally two variables with the same name
23:00:23 <tswett> That sounds warnworthy.
23:00:38 <ORin> So it is complaining that the one in the outer scope is never used
23:01:15 <ORin> that was confusing, but only due to my own stupidty
23:02:05 <ORin> I think a warning about duplicate variable names would be helpful
23:03:42 <ORin> but I am resigned that warnings will rarely point out the actual problem in any piece of code)
23:05:16 <tswett> Yeah. Warnings aren't problems; they're things that indicate that *somewhere*, the programmer has probably made a mistake.
23:23:59 <FreeFull> I know well enough to not ignore any warning unless I understand why it happens
23:24:05 <FreeFull> At least, with reasonable compilers
23:29:34 <ORin> Well, at least I got it working. now my mod of ed has interactive edit in all commands
23:30:40 <augur> they ought to give a line number
23:30:51 <augur> "the variable 'x', declared on line 100, is never used"
23:33:49 <ORin> it says the line number like
23:35:04 <ORin> http://postimg.org/image/ngxwsbk49/
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23:39:56 <shachaf> oerjan: that wasn't too evil of you hth
23:46:01 <ORin> back from the logs
23:46:31 <ORin> I didn't see oerjan do anything evil (today...)
23:56:23 <lambdabot> CYUL 192300Z 23026G35KT 15SM FEW040 FEW070 21/10 A2965 RMK CU1AC1 CU TR SLP040 DENSITY ALT 1200FT
23:56:41 <boily> CU indeed. the sky is darkening at an alarming rate.
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00:11:54 <ORin> maybe not a good idea to press ^A and then random letters to see what they do
00:13:00 <ORin> apparently ^Ak kills everything in the active terminal
00:13:09 <ORin> pretty useful actually
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00:32:40 <fungot> Nihilumbra: another error, as it were, something exterior to the state.
00:35:33 <ORin> fungot is, i think, made of fudge
00:35:33 <fungot> ORin: book ix. fnord), and even the will; which, seizing upon the senses and imagination, in the states where it is fnord riots ought to suspend our judgment until the first effervescence is a little more besides. those pictures of beard's in that fnord little did i dream when she added titles of veneration to those of the body.
00:48:31 <boily> I believe the fungot is a vortex of fnords.
00:48:31 <fungot> boily: " no man can be pardoned for describing ill, for observing the world in all stages of civilisation. as one of these on making land came straight to london, inspected by the court faction, a degree of his confidence, to set apart and commissioned to be a chief guest on an occasion like this.
00:49:50 <boily> Nihilumbra: Nihellolumbra. first time I see you in this channel. what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
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01:16:10 <Nihilumbra> I will empty your body of your vital organs
01:16:32 <Nihilumbra> The cruor of your eviceration will cling to the ceiling
01:21:19 <ORin> body weight, longitude, latitude, and altitude?
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01:24:57 <Nihilumbra> -56000,000 lbs. x -64157 y -651 and altitude is 78e+808^100 light years above earths atmosphere
01:26:50 <Wright> this channel is about esoteric programming languages, right?
01:27:35 <ORin> [-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++.+.+. and all that
01:29:01 <ORin> `8-ball why not?
01:29:31 <Nihilumbra> Proof that all bots are invisible humans that are really slow
01:30:07 <ORin> Oh, hackego isn't online
01:31:51 <FreeFull> ORin: I'd assume the initial state of that cell is 0
01:32:15 <ORin> Not in my screwed up C impl
01:32:44 <ORin> It just takes a pointer to the open stacka nd uses it as the tape
01:33:00 <Wright> because I accidentally joined #esoteric on efnet first instead of on freenode (on efnet it's some weird culty religious thing), and fungot's messages vaguely represented the stuff in that channel. I wasn't sure if he was serious or not
01:33:01 <fungot> Wright: your executive administration through the whole course of history and posterity, i care not, as many others had compared it, to engraft it and spread it over more territory. it was merely a continuation of the literature of britain.
01:34:09 <Nihilumbra> Also esoteric means something or whatever
01:35:43 <Wright> I left the other #esoteric right away, but they link to this guy in their channel topic http://www.amazon.com/Mike-Hockney/e/B004KHR7DC
01:36:34 <ORin> Note that taking a pointer to the open stack as the tape means the top 5 or so cells are unstable when you perform a . instruction
01:36:50 <ORin> er. first cells
01:38:40 <Wright> Ooh I wrote a TI-basic brainf interpreter
01:39:06 <Nihilumbra> The meme cultur is real on this amazon page
01:39:50 <Nihilumbra> Wright what server did you connect to?
01:40:06 <Wright> I use irc.mzima.net, not sure if there's an 'official' one like freenode has
01:42:17 <Wright> Oh goddammit, I visited that amazon link one too many times. Now google's giving me weird ads
01:42:28 <Wright> stuff like http://pagead2.googlesyndication.com/simgad/17740892814984858553
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01:51:00 <Wright> Really? Okay; I was only there for a split second, didn't get to see them talking
01:52:51 <Wright> Found my ti-basic brainfuck thing, btw! http://cemete.ch/p234462#234462
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01:53:50 <Wright> I called the memory tape a 'stack' for some reason
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02:42:29 -!- ChanServ has set channel mode: +o oerjan.
02:43:40 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: +b *!Frooxius@199-241-202-205.PUBLIC.monkeybrains.net$#fix_your_connection.
02:44:06 -!- oerjan has set channel mode: -o oerjan.
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03:12:01 <lambdabot> oerjan is in #esoteric. I don't know when oerjan last spoke.
03:15:00 <lambdabot> shachaf is in #esoteric, ##crypto, #ghc, #haskell-gsoc, #haskell-infrastructure and #haskell-lens..
03:15:16 <lambdabot> Yes, I'm here. I'm in #fp@nith, #lpmc, #lysa, #learnmath, ##scalaz, #vinyl, #aurapm, #plaimi, ##megaharem, #lw-prog, #bfpg, #nicta-course, ##categorytheory, #hledger, #ledger, #csa_uva, #tanuki, ##villagegreen, #hscraft-srv, #esoteric, ##manatee, #unicycling, #scannedinavian, #mainehackerclub, #scala, #rosettacode, #macosx, #scalaz, #functionaljava
03:15:16 <lambdabot> , #jtiger, ##crypto, #jhc, #happs, #ghc, #gentoo-uy, #fedora-haskell, #gentoo-haskell, #friendly-coders, #macosxdev, #haskell-game, #haskell-freebsd, #dreamlinux-es, ##proggit, #learnprogramming, #learnanycomputerlanguage, #darcs, #archlinux-haskell, #haskell-arcade, ##logic, #yi, #numerical-haskell, #snapframework, #diagrams, #xmonad, #agda, #
03:15:16 <lambdabot> hackage, #haskell-beginners, #haskell-cn, #haskell-by, #haskell-id, #haskell_ru, #haskell.se, #haskell.ru, #haskell.no, #haskell.jp, #haskell.it, #haskell.hr, #haskell-fr, #haskell.fi, #haskell.es, #haskell.dut, #haskell.de, #haskell.cz, #haskell-br, #haskell-pl, #haskell.tw, #haskell.au, #haskell-llvm, #haskell-soc, #haskell-gsoc, #haskell-
03:15:16 <lambdabot> overflow, #haskell-in-depth, #haskell-books, #haskell-blah, #haskell-infrastructure, #haskell-lens and #haskell
03:15:24 <oerjan> lambdabot: but i wanted to know when he last spoke!
03:16:17 <oerjan> @tell int-e i think @seen has some verbosity issues
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03:42:30 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: int-e reenabled lambdabot's @seen command, it's not very good at limiting output
03:42:44 <oerjan> especially when you ask about lambdabot itself
03:43:55 <Nihilumbra> Is it supposed to @seen what a user last said in any room or the most recent
03:44:36 <lambdabot> seen <user>. Report if a user has been seen by the bot
03:44:50 <lambdabot> Nihilumbra is in ##villagegreen, #esoteric and #haskell..
03:45:17 <oerjan> oh it doesn't say when people last spoke any longer
03:45:42 <Nihilumbra> that's what I suspected most bots have that function
03:46:15 <oerjan> it's my nearly only channel
03:46:27 <oerjan> (there's one more, ##nomic)
03:46:42 <oerjan> but it's not very active
03:46:55 <oerjan> well sure. there's also a way you could find out.
03:47:05 <oerjan> well not quite, but close.
03:47:27 <Nihilumbra> I'm not into dredging through years of logs
03:47:40 <oerjan> there's a way via nickserv too
03:47:42 <Nihilumbra> I could just open all the logs and type oerjan
03:50:31 <oerjan> it's the 2nd most common surname in norway
03:51:10 <oerjan> sweden would have been Johansson
03:51:31 <Nihilumbra> Does you client not accept ø in a username
03:52:48 <oerjan> although back when i got the nick, it was unix which didn't.
03:53:01 <oerjan> irc is old, from the 80s
03:53:16 <oerjan> and everything needs to be backwards-compatible
03:53:35 <oerjan> back then they used | as a substitute.
03:53:50 <oerjan> which looks like ø in some character encodings
03:54:11 <oerjan> irc was invented in finland
03:54:20 <oerjan> so it would have been ö there
03:56:34 <oerjan> these days, pizza and tacos
03:56:55 <oerjan> well i guess we still eat bread
03:57:15 <oerjan> but pizza and tacos is the general weekend snack
03:57:39 <Nihilumbra> Stereotype for me alchohal and potatos
03:57:52 <oerjan> potatoes are pretty common
03:58:12 <oerjan> i don't actually know what young people eat nowadays
03:58:31 <oerjan> when i was young, potatoes was a staple food, anyway
04:01:39 <oerjan> alcohol and potatoes, so does that mean you're irish
04:03:36 * oerjan spent about a month in ireland back in '98
04:04:41 <Nihilumbra> Putting lambdabots library onto a vhs tape
04:05:16 <oerjan> i think a link to github would be easier
04:07:04 <oerjan> by an old george washington carver recipe
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04:36:39 <oerjan> <Wright> because I accidentally joined #esoteric on efnet first instead of on freenode (on efnet it's some weird culty religious thing), and fungot's messages vaguely represented the stuff in that channel. I wasn't sure if he was serious or not <-- wait is that efnet thing active? we've been trying to find somewhere to point people coming _here_ for the wrong reason...
04:36:39 <fungot> oerjan: he put the revolver to his forehead and blew a tunnel straight through his head. god forbid that i should call the material walls, doors, and windows of, the world worth speaking of, the influence of their priests; or where the priests who teach the common people is a bottom but for a short time the nation, and that
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04:37:36 <pikhq> oerjan: Appears to have 10 people ATM.
04:37:53 <oerjan> that does sound promising
04:38:19 <oerjan> what about the dalnet one we're already pointing to
04:38:25 <pikhq> They appear to also run a website and such.
04:39:07 <pikhq> So maybe not the largest community, but certainly looks to be alive.
04:39:11 <oerjan> hm i haven't had any caffeine yet...
04:39:23 <pikhq> Dunno -- don't have a Dalnet connection going. :P
04:39:29 <oerjan> might change it once hackego comes back, then
04:39:53 <Nihilumbra> Idk how you come here for the wrong reason, unless you join every esoteric on every irc you join
04:40:15 <Nihilumbra> Want me to see how the dalnet one is doing
04:40:22 <oerjan> oh wait it's doing that thing where it's not joining the channel again
04:40:44 <pikhq> Well, Freenode is a popular IRC network and "esoteric" is more commonly used to refer to esotericism than to esolangs.
04:41:18 <pikhq> So it at least sounds like something that oughta work.
04:41:45 <Nihilumbra> If you don't want people coming here for the wrong reasons why not make it +s
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04:42:28 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: it doesn't happen _that_ often
04:42:31 <pikhq> It's not a *massive* problem.
04:42:53 <pikhq> Happens just enough we'd like to be able to say "these people might be more relevant."
04:43:52 <Nihilumbra> I'm very slowly entering numbers into a data chart to see precisely how good my bots speed is
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04:48:40 <oerjan> perhaps not much of an improvement
04:50:16 <oren> that's caused by him wanting the code to do a perfect job like he would
04:50:56 <oren> Most jobs can only be automated in 95% of cases
04:51:20 <Nihilumbra> @bf + +++++++++++++++++++++++++[>++>+++>++++<<<-]++++++++++++++++++++++++++>>-----------.>-------.++++++++++.------.
04:52:36 <Ox0dea> lambdabot solved the halting problem?
04:52:42 <oerjan> <Wright> I left the other #esoteric right away, but they link to this guy in their channel topic http://www.amazon.com/Mike-Hockney/e/B004KHR7DC <-- ok i think i won't be visiting either, then
04:53:04 <Nihilumbra> I can't automate a data chart that's a scroll down I think
04:53:12 <oerjan> Ox0dea: wrapping cells, presumably
04:53:17 <Nihilumbra> Ill just make sure not to make a mistake
04:53:32 <oren> Ox0dea: maybe it has a logical loop detector
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04:54:11 <oren> it is running under haskell which iirc is used by lots of automated proof people
04:54:20 <Nihilumbra> I wish I could see lambdabot behind the scenes
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04:55:19 <oerjan> <Nihilumbra> Ill just make sure not to make a mistake <-- famous programmer last words
04:56:15 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: lambdabot is on github hth
04:56:35 <oerjan> and its server is just some vps int-e got
04:56:42 <Nihilumbra> It takes me about 3 days to fill these statistics charts out
04:56:54 <oerjan> can't you even cut and paste?
04:58:50 <Nihilumbra> But it just pastes it back into the box I took it from
04:59:22 <Nihilumbra> Some weird barrier thing a friend made like 2 years ago and now I've forgotten how to take it off
05:00:46 <oerjan> that's like, pretty useless
05:01:26 <Nihilumbra> Idk if someone wants to re copy 76 modules by hand
05:03:37 <Nihilumbra> I should really type in full sentences because its probably annoying, I just always hit enter for a new line a lot and I rarely use irc so not so good on manners
05:07:24 <Nihilumbra> Seems like the people here don't really talk
05:07:53 <oren> Holy crap chicago just HEADED the puck in!
05:08:35 <oren> Ref says no goal, you're apparently not allowed to head the puck
05:09:07 <oren> yeah I'm watching the NHL
05:09:43 <oren> 2OT 10 min CHI 2 ANA 2
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05:19:11 <oerjan> the metre convention is 140 years old today
05:24:48 <oren> one minute left in the second overtime
05:32:04 <newsham> formally verified C analyzer http://compcert.inria.fr/verasco/
05:45:11 <Nihilumbra> But it can be learned through tough thorough thought, though
05:46:42 <Ox0dea> /^But/ and /though$/ are essentially equivalent, and thus mutually redundant, and so should not be used together in the same sentence, or even fragment.
05:47:46 <pikhq> But redundancy is awesome, though.
05:49:36 <oren> Yeah just everyone on the team stand around in the crease
05:50:11 <Ox0dea> Nihilumbra: Fundamentally, they both indicate refutation of the component to which they're attached.
05:50:33 <Ox0dea> "But don't do that" and "don't do that, though" are equivalent in meaning.
05:51:47 <Nihilumbra> Like saying don't do that, although maybe you could
05:52:03 <Nihilumbra> That sounds a lot better but has different context
05:52:36 <Ox0dea> Right, they're certainly not perfectly synonymous, but *starting* with "but" and finishing with "though" is indeed redundant.
05:52:47 <Ox0dea> I had hoped that using the regular expressions would clarify this point.
05:53:39 <pikhq> But you should've said /^But.*though$/, though.
05:54:10 <Ox0dea> But I address them as a pair later in the sentence, though.
05:54:51 <oren> there are supposedly, but not actually, any rules
05:55:09 <Nihilumbra> If you say a word a lot it sounds like utter bullshit and feels as if you are puking out random syllables
05:55:28 <oren> That's not unique to english hth
05:55:31 <Ox0dea> Nihilumbra: That is called semantic satiation, and it's quite an interesting phenomena.
05:57:57 <Ox0dea> I suspect a lack of coincidence for some reason.
05:58:37 <Nihilumbra> Its not that interesting because language is made up cats and other animals do just fine by making small movements to indicate what they mean so I'm pretty sure out one common ancestor did the same thing but humans had to be special and now everytime you say a word to much your brain realises wow this is stupid what am I doing
05:58:51 <Nihilumbra> So I feel like speaking just wastes so much energy
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06:01:52 <Nihilumbra> And you can speak English even if you pronounce each word incorrectly to piss everyone off right?
06:04:13 <oerjan> Eye donut sea wai anyon wood
06:04:35 <adu> Android Marshmallow?
06:05:52 * oerjan wonders why cameroon left the CGPM
06:06:10 <Ox0dea> Thesis ha why ink ripped alma come eunuch Haitians.
06:06:26 <Ox0dea> Slightly proud of that one, actually.
06:06:52 <adu> yeah, but consider these: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41wpBoQexXL._SY300_.jpg http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414iaF3eVeL._SS500_.jpg
06:08:01 * oerjan hits Ox0dea with the saucepan ===\__/
06:08:40 <oerjan> just to communicate my headache from your line, you see
06:09:02 <Ox0dea> Hey, that looks like valid SNUSP!
06:12:13 * adu just got it
06:12:20 <oerjan> hm this is strange with cameroon having still close relations with france
06:12:28 <adu> (partially)
06:12:42 <adu> something about encrypted communications?
06:12:44 <Ox0dea> "This is how I encrypt all my communications."
06:12:50 <oerjan> i mean north korea leaving is more like, duh.
06:13:13 <adu> yeah, I never would have gotten that...
06:13:33 <oerjan> and NOW MY BRAIN HURTS
06:13:53 <oerjan> (partial disclosure: i may have had a headache already)
06:14:19 <adu> leaving what?
06:14:48 <oerjan> or organization, anyway
06:15:00 <oerjan> (it's complicated, they have 3)
06:15:01 <adu> are they using kim un's feet now?
06:15:31 <oerjan> it is fairly likely they didn't actually change any measures
06:16:05 <oerjan> knowing them, they'd be more likely to declare his feet to be precisely that long
06:16:48 <adu> yeah, I mean cars have had mi and km for decades in the US, but the road signs still say mph, too many to replace, not enough money
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06:17:26 <oerjan> did you know the usa was actually an original signatory (although they took 3 years extra to join, somehow)
06:17:38 <adu> it's a shame
06:18:13 <adu> but I want to be part of the solution, but I can't find any liters of milk
06:18:33 <adu> it's all in stupid gallons
06:18:46 <oerjan> surely you mean cubic decimeters hth
06:19:00 <adu> is there a difference?
06:19:07 <oerjan> hm finnish spam season
06:19:24 <oerjan> adu: no but i'm not sure the liter is quite as official as it used to be...
06:19:42 <adu> why wouldn't it be?
06:20:07 <oerjan> "non-SI metric system unit"
06:20:39 <oerjan> because it doesn't fit quite in with the rest
06:20:43 <adu> that's like saying radians, sterradians, or lumens are not official
06:21:59 <adu> I once had a long thought about radians, and why they didn't fit in with the rest
06:22:50 <adu> and I decided that all the other units were vector ratios, but the radian is defined as an arc-length divided by a vector, and so it shouldn't even be defined as unitless
06:25:06 <adu> so the SI that says rad = 1 is incorrect, since rad = m(arc) / m(vec)
06:25:57 <oren> in canada all milk comes in liter bags
06:26:42 <oren> usually you buy a 4 liter bag containing 4 liter bags
06:27:09 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_bag
06:27:20 <oren> there is a picture of a milk bag
06:27:52 <oerjan> in norway they come in liter cartons
06:28:19 <oren> we have those too
06:28:33 <oren> and 2-liter cartons
06:29:22 <oren> but usually every week my family buys 3 of the 4 liter bag bags
06:30:56 <adu> oren: are you in Canada?
06:31:21 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
06:31:32 <oren> adu: Yes i live in Toronto
06:31:53 <adu> oren: how often do people riot in Canada?
06:33:09 <adu> or perhaps a more general question would be: what's it like?
06:34:09 <oren> adu: that differs greatly between quebec and the rest of canada
06:34:19 <oren> In quebec they riot a lot
06:34:44 <oren> generally in ontario we write to the newspaper instead
06:35:27 <Ox0dea> "Ontario" is an anagram of "riot nao".
06:35:41 <Ox0dea> Explain that one, oren.
06:35:55 <adu> I think there's an exponentially increasing number of riots in the US
06:36:16 <adu> I may consider moving to not-Quebec Canada
06:39:09 <oren> Hmm, has there been one since the ferguson thing?
06:39:20 <oren> I don't watch the news often so
06:39:25 <adu> yes, in Baltimore
06:41:27 <adu> they burned a convinience store
06:43:09 <oerjan> riot is just the quebecois word for party hth
06:43:20 <adu> because a citizen was arrested for having a knife, put in the back of a police cruiser, and when he got out of the cruiser he was in a coma
06:43:30 <oren> I see... well, Toronto did have some problems during G20/G8 conference
06:44:02 <oren> yes, but I suspect some of it was done by tourists
06:45:19 <oren> er, wait, is the the right year
06:45:47 <adu> the G20 was in Toronto in 2010
06:46:08 <oerjan> adu: https://xkcd.com/605/
06:46:18 <adu> ppl don't like secret meetings for some reason
06:46:32 <oren> In any case, our police tend to control protests by being on horses
06:46:46 <oren> and letting people pet the horses
06:48:48 <adu> that sounds so much nicer than LRAD
06:50:00 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Range_Acoustic_Device
06:50:07 <adu> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_of_civil_unrest_in_the_United_States#2010s
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06:51:23 <oren> looks like they have LRAD in montreal, but to be fair, their hockey riots are pretty severe
06:51:37 <oren> they burn police cars and buses
06:52:14 <oren> when the habs lose
06:53:59 <adu> well, I live pretty close to Baltimore, so it was on every news channel here
06:54:27 <adu> like nonstop for 2 weeks
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07:01:15 <oren> apart from our police system, there are other differences; we have a single-payer heathcare system, a provincial government monopoly on the sale of alcohol, quite strict laws on owning weapons, and higher taxes
07:03:55 <oren> apparently taxes are somehow lower here
07:08:40 <oren> ok fuck it, my dad does my taxes fior me anyway
07:10:59 <oren> Well, the main point is, alcohol is much more expensive. That's the IMPORTANT downside,
07:12:42 <oerjan> so basically it's like norway, check
07:13:33 <oerjan> wait does this mean quebec does _not_ have single payer
07:15:39 <oren> no I was talking differences from the US where adu lives
07:16:46 <adu> yes, I've heard about taxes in Canada
07:17:09 <oren> quebec does let their bars stay open later and you can drink at 18 instead of 19
07:17:25 <adu> that must be why there are more riots
07:21:17 <oren> ok so for example
07:21:21 <oren> http://www.humuch.com/prices/Guinness-Stout-6-bottles/______/727
07:23:29 <oren> there is a "sin tax" on alcohol and tobacco
07:24:51 <b_jonas> it's "healthcare tax", not "sin tax"
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08:34:55 <mroman_> the gambling tax however could be named "sin tax"
08:35:05 <mroman_> and they should put a sin tax on condoms
08:35:21 <mroman_> since using them has to be declared a sin
08:36:09 <mroman_> and popes are the speaking tubes of god
08:40:42 <b_jonas> mroman_: meh, everything has been declared a sin by _someone_
08:41:03 <b_jonas> and the gambling tax isn't sin tax either, it's idiot tax
08:41:34 <b_jonas> the gambling tax is a tax for the state to keep their monopoly in gambling
08:41:43 <mroman_> Sure, but not everyone has the authority to declare something as a sin
08:41:45 <b_jonas> because gambling can get you lots of income, so the state wants to do it itself
08:41:47 <mroman_> only religious leaders can do that.
08:42:09 <b_jonas> so they make rules so complicated that almost nobody other than the state can run gamblinlg
08:42:12 <b_jonas> and they run all the lotteries
08:42:16 <b_jonas> that's what's happening here
08:42:36 <b_jonas> it's just difficult because it's hard to regulate all the online gambling (casinos and sports betting) with online payments
08:43:14 <b_jonas> and the tax is part of these rules
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09:00:26 <b_jonas> argh, why I people still writing “Check out <a href="example:">this link</a> for a detailed explanation.” instead of “Check out <a href="example:">a detailed explanation</a>.” ? Can't they learn?
09:01:08 <b_jonas> Or “Check out <a href="example:">this link for a detailed explanation</a>.” if they think their readers are still so dumb they don't recognize hyperlinks.
09:01:24 <b_jonas> (which is not very likely because this is a computer-related context)
09:03:06 <lifthrasiir> there are people liking <a href="example:">t</a><a href="example:">h</a><a href="example:">i</a><a href="example:">s</a>, so consider yourself lucky.
09:12:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Duck Duck Goose]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42970&oldid=42967 * Vriskanon * (+951) /* Sample programs */ Added truth machine
09:15:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42971&oldid=41659 * Vriskanon * (+953) /* Implementations */ Added Duck Duck Goose
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10:04:35 <Taneb> How do I show that n^n is not in O(2^n)?
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10:29:49 <mroman_> has lim n -> infinity = infinity
10:38:30 <mroman_> If f(n)/g(n) for n -> infinity is infinity then f(n) > g(n), if it is zero then f(n) < g(n)
10:38:36 <mroman_> if it's some constant then f(n) = g(n)
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10:51:52 <Deewiant> CCBI's been getting a bunch of hits from this old course lately, I wonder what that's about http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~nwatson/pa70/
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11:07:47 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/IZbs5gog
11:08:32 <mroman_> but brackets are too unbalanced
11:09:18 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/eecSiuaC <- much better
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14:10:58 <Taneb> Hmm, the bot isn't here
14:11:45 <Taneb> Wright, welcome, this is the channel for esoteric programming languages. If you wanted the other kind of esoteric, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net. Check out our wiki at esolangs.org!
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15:35:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniMAX]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42972&oldid=31448 * 168.99.197.18 * (+39) /* Example */ code implies should be -3 ; fixed that
15:39:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniMAX]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42973&oldid=42972 * 168.99.197.18 * (-39) Undo revision 42972 by [[Special:Contributions/168.99.197.18|168.99.197.18]] ([[User talk:168.99.197.18|talk]]) oh, I get it now. whoops.
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19:38:28 <oerjan> <Taneb> How do I show that n^n is not in O(2^n)? <-- look at mroman_'s first two lines then ignore the rest argh
19:40:38 <oerjan> (O notation is subtle, writing it as confusing as he did later is painful)
19:46:00 <oren> I remember having to do proofs of O questions from first principles. a huge pain
19:47:40 <oerjan> HackEgo, fizzie and Gregor all seem absent
19:47:45 <oren> e.g prove that \A x \E y s.t y^y > x2^y
19:47:54 <oerjan> (although HackEgo is lurking in the shadows)
19:48:47 <oerjan> it hasn't been here since @seen was reenabled, i guess
19:52:37 <oren> im tryumng tp learn tp toycj tupe bir imhabing problens
19:53:08 <oren> I'm trying to learn to touch tuype
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19:54:35 <b_jonas> oren: great, what problems exactly?
19:55:01 <oerjan> have you tried a typing game
19:55:30 <oren> mosrlyt nor hitting thr right keys
19:56:12 <oren> as you cam trll
19:59:04 <oren> anywayt i'm aure ill get berter if i pravtice a lot
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20:40:37 <Taneb> Seeing one of my friends play a skinhead from 1969 on TV is kind of weird
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21:55:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Churro]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42974 * 50.65.114.255 * (+4346) Churro is a stack-based interpreted programming language in which the code is entirely made up of churros.
21:56:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Churro]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42975&oldid=42974 * 50.65.114.255 * (+0)
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21:58:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42976&oldid=42897 * 50.65.114.255 * (+13) /* C */
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22:07:56 <oerjan> @let default (Int, Complex Float, Double) -- did i try this once before...
22:07:58 <lambdabot> here was another default declaration .L.hs:130:1-29
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22:30:43 <Melvar> I have added sane showing with precedence to idris. \o/
22:41:05 <Sgeo> Is there a way to figure out which files are affected by a bad sector?
22:46:30 <oren> that orobablu depends greatly ojn waht file sytsem it is
22:51:46 <oerjan> @tell fizzie HackEgo has run off the channel again
22:52:07 <oerjan> i'd @tell gregor but he's 19 days idle.
22:53:20 <oerjan> it's so confusing when tab completion doesn't reliably tell if someone is on the channel
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23:06:49 <HackEgo> oren is a Canadian esolanger who would like to obliterate time zones so that he can talk to his father who lives in the same house. He'll orobablu get the hang of toycj tuping soon.
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00:26:49 * oerjan finds out that it's been just 30 days since last he properly looked at recent changes on the wiki
00:27:14 <oerjan> and also, that it's possible to expand it by editing the url
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00:33:05 <fizzie> Hauska on tietää lisää: Miten toimii kamera.
00:33:12 <fizzie> Sorry, that's something that always pops up in my head when there's something that could be associated with "the more you know".
00:33:54 <fizzie> It's the title of the Finnish translation of http://www.amazon.com/How-Works-Camera-David-Carey/dp/0721402550
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00:48:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42977&oldid=42969 * 98.182.24.67 * (-149) /* Java */
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01:08:01 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42978&oldid=42679 * Oerjan * (+15) /* Numbers */ put in context
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01:12:00 <boily> shellochaf, helloren, quinthellopia, Tanelle.
01:14:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Gibberish (programming language)]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42979&oldid=42711 * Oerjan * (+47) Time is of the essence
01:15:23 <oerjan> no longer adrift at sea!
01:16:00 <boily> well, if you consider the Canal Rideau to be some sort of sea...
01:20:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alphabetti spaghetti]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42980&oldid=42720 * Oerjan * (+10) intro fmt
01:22:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42981&oldid=42976 * Oerjan * (+0) /* A */ ala phabetically
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01:41:56 <oren> I definetely love thid font. i dont know why but I love thesr lowrt case numbets.
01:45:07 <oren> the rideau canal is cetaimly connected to a sea
01:45:26 <boily> fungot: why have you corrupted oren? next thing you know he'll be fnording.
01:45:26 <fungot> boily: but the rebellion fnord and now that i think i am going to say something remarkable, and truly manly, and reminds us of a company of merchants. i know, indeed i am ready to believe he is in the one mode or in the mode of conception. shakspeare is guided by the conditions under which the people thereof, shall on that day the following speech was made.
01:46:45 <oren> boily: i'm tting to learn to tpicj tyoe hth
01:49:58 <oren> seriously how do peoole do this widtho8utr making mistakers
01:50:19 <boily> practice, practice, practice.
01:50:33 <boily> (also, a few years of piano *may* have helped hth)
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01:52:19 <boily> oh well. dienfosh.
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01:55:10 <oren> mutexes atr hard to imlement. when i got mine to work it felt like dumb luikc mote than skill
01:56:42 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Piet++]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42982&oldid=42754 * Oerjan * (-1) typo
01:57:09 <oren> dont look ar keyboard dont lookea keyboard dont look at keytboard
01:57:49 <oerjan> hm my touch tyåing is a bit out of form
01:59:01 <oerjan> or wait maybe it's just that i was trying too hard
02:01:26 <oren> hmm ttying too hard?
02:04:30 <oerjan> as in, i type faster when i'm not concentrating too hard on typing :P
02:04:59 <oerjan> still not exactly world class speed
02:08:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Befunge]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42983&oldid=42741 * Oerjan * (+44) /* Befunge programs? */ unsigned
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02:19:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SE]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42984&oldid=42762 * Oerjan * (+1) Intro, resectioning, quine code
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02:26:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[There Once was a Fish Named Fred]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42985&oldid=42763 * Oerjan * (+1) /* Hello world */ wikify
02:29:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42986&oldid=42768 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned
02:30:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Lazy evaluation]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42987&oldid=42769 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned
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02:40:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Deadfish]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42988&oldid=42977 * Oerjan * (+149) Undo revision 42977 by [[Special:Contributions/98.182.24.67|98.182.24.67]] ([[User talk:98.182.24.67|talk]])
02:45:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42989&oldid=42790 * Oerjan * (+14) /* Links */ wikify
02:46:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[HeartForth]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42990&oldid=42989 * Oerjan * (+6) introfy
02:48:44 <tswett> T am iound to t.p eo tkle tn Dqngar qithouh actuarrf ynorinb tt,
02:48:55 <tswett> Which results in incomprehensible nonsense.
02:49:18 <tswett> "I am going to try to type in Dvorak without actually knowing it."
02:49:36 <tswett> From now on, I'm referring to Dvorak as "D'q'ngar".
02:52:00 <oerjan> are you implying that dvorak users are secretly klingons
02:56:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Clue (Keymaker)]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42991&oldid=42800 * Oerjan * (-1) Fixing formatting since that's what my brain is awake enough for
02:57:33 <lifthrasiir> U kuje ti sguft ibe gabd bt ibe cikynb ub tge QWERTT jetbiard,
02:57:58 <shachaf> tswett: now you gotta complete the rest of the double dactyl hth
02:58:07 <lifthrasiir> "I like to shift one hand by one column in the QWERTY keyboard."
02:58:28 <lifthrasiir> actually, "jetbiard" sounds great enough that it can be made into my naming pool
02:59:08 <oerjan> jetbiard the flying viking
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06:23:23 <HackEgo> Monads are just monoids in the category of endofunctors.
06:25:38 <HackEgo> gonads are the best punctional fondlegramming squishcture.
06:26:04 <quintopia> aw i was hoping for "Gonads are just gonoids in the category of innuendofunctors."
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07:28:52 <Jafet> @quote zygohistomorphic
07:28:52 <lambdabot> comonad says: - comonad [~functor@zygohistomorphic-prepromorphism.endofunctor.org] has joined #haskell
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08:08:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=42992 * Vriskanon * (+1461) Added ASCII art-, an [[ASCII art]] derivative.
08:09:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Vriskanon]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42993&oldid=42950 * Vriskanon * (+23) Added [[ASCII art-]]
08:10:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42994&oldid=42951 * Vriskanon * (+17) /* Brainfuck derivatives */ Added [[ASCII art-]]
08:11:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42995&oldid=42986 * Vriskanon * (+132)
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08:22:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Basilisk]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42996&oldid=42670 * Vriskanon * (+29) Category: Joke Languages
08:23:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[420]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42997&oldid=42674 * Vriskanon * (+29) [[Category:Joke languages]]
08:23:36 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42998&oldid=42992 * Vriskanon * (+29) [[Category:Joke languages]]
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08:42:44 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fringespeak]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=42999&oldid=42900 * Oerjan * (+9) wiffy
08:44:07 <fungot> mroman_: church of ireland a bad institution. this may perhaps prove that we are entering its gates, in the same at judicious intervals, should eat the entire barrel at one sitting of the late payment of the premiums into small periodical sums, and also an fnord party, and even of her personal existence, and seems to consider as a trust for charity; and who, rather than in the former set, the population is from 125 to 250, or r
08:45:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Alacrity]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43000&oldid=42902 * Oerjan * (+4) wookiefy
08:45:17 <mroman_> You mean the f(n) > g(n) stuff?
08:45:22 <fungot> Nihilumbra: i will teach you how to steal, so that i could wish, indeed, the most powerful, the most unprecedented, the most fnord of its professors must be every night exchanged for the hideous coats and waistcoats of the present alarming state of public opinion, and if it receives countenance by the most successful, because to-night we should particularly observe, i think. yes; it's seven. but that any condensation which does
08:46:17 <oerjan> fungot: i think Nihilumbra is insulted
08:46:17 <fungot> oerjan: the most decisive proof of mr sadler's proposition is. he asserts, and our love knows no distinction. under such a constitution nominally existed in france; while, in all seasons, and in one respect the analogy is very striking. as there always are many rotten members belonging to the dramatic, musical, and equestrian sick fund association."
08:46:24 <mroman_> oerjan: What's wrong with that?
08:47:05 <mroman_> Except that there might be some n where f(n) > g(n) doesn't hold
08:47:19 <oerjan> mroman_: it didn't seem very relevant to an O() proof
08:47:47 <mroman_> f(n) > g(n) just means that f is steeper than g
08:48:50 <oerjan> no, it means that f(n) > g(n) for some or all n.
08:49:18 <oerjan> it has nothing to do with asymptotics
08:49:30 <oerjan> until you put the right quantifiers on
08:50:13 <mroman_> and Big Omegas and Big Thetas
08:52:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Malbrain]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43001&oldid=42878 * Oerjan * (-1) fmt
08:52:31 <oerjan> there's probably a symbol for it, but it's not >
08:53:45 <mroman_> theres f(n) \elem \BigOmega (n) or something like that I think
08:53:50 <mroman_> it's not very ASCII friendly though
08:54:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wepmlrio]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43002&oldid=42903 * Oerjan * (+48) unsigned
08:55:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Wepmlrio]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43003&oldid=43002 * Oerjan * (+1) oops
08:58:24 <mroman_> wepmlrio is the laziest knock-off ever
08:59:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[APLBAONWSJAS]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43004&oldid=42958 * Oerjan * (+7) bold, typos
08:59:31 <mroman_> isn't ASCII-Art- just brainfuck o_O?
09:02:46 <Jafet> I Demand Deletion sounds like a good language name
09:02:53 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Random Brainfuck]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43005&oldid=42968 * Oerjan * (+5) typo
09:02:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43006 * 160.85.232.168 * (+120) brainfuck?
09:03:06 <myname> it should have no garbage collector, though
09:03:26 <mroman_> I guess that happens when 14 year old try to make their own languages :)
09:04:23 <Jafet> Needs [[Category:ASCII art derivative]] imo
09:04:29 <mroman_> I mean... ASCII-Art even says that it's just brainfuck but ascii-artified
09:04:43 <mroman_> if you unasciiartify it it's plain old brainfuck
09:05:18 <Nihilumbra> It also says it goes off of what the last input was or something like that
09:07:25 <Nihilumbra> I finished the statistics thing I was doing btw
09:08:30 <Nihilumbra> I was making a statistics chart for my bot to see how it preformed when doing large tasks such as moving cores,
09:09:05 <mroman_> 434.4 of 100k people in switzerland have cancer
09:09:08 <Nihilumbra> I just have to look over it and check for minor mistakes
09:11:03 <Nihilumbra> Why did it go up to its original number
09:11:10 <mroman_> > let q f (a,b) = (f a, f b) in q (/100) (100000, 434.4)
09:11:59 <Nihilumbra> And shortened the ammount of time by like a day
09:12:02 <mroman_> yeah so 1 out of 1k probably dies of cancer
09:12:23 <mroman_> the statistics was taken over 4 years
09:12:37 <mroman_> in 4 years one of 1k will die of cancer
09:13:19 <mroman_> that's a binomial distribution right?
09:13:51 <mroman_> asuming you live 80 years long
09:13:56 <mroman_> that's 20 trials of 4 years
09:14:31 <Nihilumbra> Ill just calculmatate thiss large ass number me self
09:14:33 <mroman_> that's 0.02 if I can calculate right
09:14:51 <mroman_> you have a 2% chance of dieing due to cancer in your whole lifetime
09:15:50 <mroman_> Does that imply that one in fifty people will eventually die from cancer?
09:17:00 <oerjan> huh i'd have thought it was higher...
09:17:28 <oerjan> as in, everyone dies, and cancer is one of the major reasons
09:18:51 <oerjan> Nihilumbra: i _am_ a cancer hth
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09:19:39 <Nihilumbra> Also mroman how much is 18,828 bytes converted to a kilobyte
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10:11:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43007&oldid=43006 * Vriskanon * (+91) Yes, it it.
10:21:38 <mroman_> Idris has eager evaluation
10:26:07 <Melvar> mroman_: Yes. edwinb likes it better that way. Laziness must be explicit.
10:30:08 * Melvar ponders the usefulness of making Lazy a monad.
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10:47:07 <mroman_> I could use my school project and "clean it up"
10:47:11 <mroman_> getting rid of useless stuff
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11:11:20 <mroman_> Mainly wanting to get rid of MMU and Cache simulation
11:11:24 <mroman_> and then get rid of the interrupt system
11:11:36 <mroman_> then it will be a plain virtual machine of some sort
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11:31:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43008&oldid=43007 * 160.85.232.168 * (+115)
11:35:21 <b_jonas> mroman_: oh, what are you doing?
11:41:00 <mroman_> My pre-bachelor thesis involved designing a computer and write an emulator for it
11:41:19 <mroman_> including assembler, disassembler
11:41:37 <mroman_> and MMU and CPU Cache Emulation
11:42:05 <mroman_> CPU Cache Emulation makes it rather slow :)
11:43:22 <mroman_> So I thought I might get rid of superfluous features
11:43:51 <mroman_> but now I'm already at thinking "wait.. what am I doing it for?"
11:45:43 <mroman_> as far as programming projects go I can't really do anything useful anymore
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12:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43009&oldid=43008 * Vriskanon * (+182)
12:32:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CalScript]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43010&oldid=42935 * Vriskanon * (+8) Bold, typos
12:34:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[ASCII art-]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43011&oldid=42998 * Vriskanon * (+7) Bold, typos
12:38:35 <mroman_> SLOBOL was created in 2015
12:38:42 <mroman_> but was mentioned in an article back in 1984?
12:39:00 <mroman_> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Lesser_known_programming_languages
12:50:35 <ais523> mroman_: the original article was just a list of names
12:50:44 <ais523> and one-sentence descriptions
12:50:52 <ais523> some languages have since been created based on the descriptions
12:50:56 <ais523> but the descriptions came first
12:50:57 <ais523> does that makes sense?
12:58:01 <mroman_> Does rust's new return &T?
12:58:20 <b_jonas> I think I'm finally beginning to understand why some problem that looked like it might have a trivial solution but I couldn't find such a solution actually probably can't have a trivial solution of the form I was looking at.
12:58:41 <ais523> mroman_: rust's box normally returns Box<T>, which is a different sort of reference which can be borrowed to produce an &T
12:58:55 <ais523> it can't return an &T directly because it'd be unclear what you were borrowing from
13:00:08 <ais523> that's presumably just Arc<T>
13:00:26 <ais523> it's a reference, but it's not a borrowed reference
13:00:30 <ais523> & is for borrowed references specifically
13:00:41 <ais523> you can borrow an Arc<T> to produce an &T
13:01:12 <ais523> the difference between borrowed references and references in general is, when you borrow a reference you have to give it back (i.e. free/unborrow it by the end of the block)
13:01:21 <mroman_> If I write a function that accepts some &Arc<T> then foo(Arc::new(5)) wouldn't type check?
13:01:22 <ais523> things like Box and Rc and Arc and Gc have other rules
13:01:36 <b_jonas> Oh great, the good part is that the result that shows this appears in a 2013 article, so I might not have actually known about it when I started to think about it (though I could still have had suspicions).
13:01:51 <ais523> I'm not sure, you'd need to ask someone who's better at Rust
13:01:58 <ais523> I understand the basic concepts, but not the details
13:03:07 <ais523> @oeis 4, 14, 86, 782, 9332
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13:04:06 <j-bot> b_jonas: 2 7 43 391 4666
13:04:45 <mroman_> @oeis 4, 41, 68, 287, 2339
13:05:32 <ais523> b_jonas: I have good reason to believe that that sequence is O(n^n)
13:05:55 <b_jonas> wait, oeis has surpassed 250000 sequences/
13:15:54 <tromp> i got A256001 just the other day
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13:32:58 <int-e> b_jonas: what are you counting?
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13:33:29 <b_jonas> int-e: I'm not counting. ais523 has pasted some sequence.
13:34:07 <ais523> any ideas here as to what it is, btw? I was wondering if it was known
13:34:22 <ais523> came up at work, but out of something that would fit right into #esoteric
13:36:00 <b_jonas> Meaniwhile this is the article I'm looking at:
13:36:04 <b_jonas> Nice algebraic topology result: Martin Cadek, Marek Krcal, Jiri Matousek, Lukas Vokrinek, Uli Wagner, "Extendability of continuous maps is undecidable", arxiv.org/abs/1302.2370
13:36:16 <b_jonas> probably unrelated to what ais is doig
13:37:03 <ais523> come to think of it there's probably a 1 and 2 before that, less sure though
13:37:11 <b_jonas> ais' must be connected to decimal digits, for his second sequence is the map digitreversal of the first one
13:37:30 <ais523> I only sent one sequence?
13:37:43 <ais523> it's mroman_ who digitreversed it
13:37:51 <ais523> (and I'd be very surprised if it were connected to decimal)
13:38:28 <ais523> so basically what it is, is
13:38:45 <ais523> if I apply a mockingbird to a church numeral with side effects, it's the number of times that those side effects get evaluated
13:38:56 <ais523> when I give a couple of arguments to the resulting function
13:39:11 <b_jonas> um, which one has side effects when?
13:39:47 <ais523> the church numeral, and upon seeing two arguments
13:40:01 <ais523> i.e. let c2 f x = print "test"; f (f x)
13:41:53 <ais523> (and the mockingbird is "let m f = f f", as usual)
13:42:05 <ais523> or, well, most languages I know of explode if you give them mockingbirds
13:42:24 <ais523> I've been using one to test my type inference algorithm at work, the results aren't really pretty
13:42:30 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: r1 ~ r1 -> r
13:42:30 <lambdabot> Relevant bindings include f :: r1 -> r (bound at <interactive>:1:2)
13:42:30 <lambdabot> In the first argument of ‘f’, namely ‘f’
13:42:42 <mroman_> You can't mock a mockingbord.
13:42:45 <b_jonas> how about weakly typed languages?
13:42:51 <ais523> what's idris-bot's prefi?
13:42:57 <fungot> Bot prefixes: fungot ^, HackEgo `, EgoBot !, lambdabot @ or ?, thutubot +, metasepia ~, idris-bot ( , jconn ) , blsqbot !
13:43:07 <idris-bot> (input):1:7: error: expected: ",",
13:43:09 <lambdabot> parse error (possibly incorrect indentation or mismatched brackets)
13:43:16 <b_jonas> it might still get into a loop consuming unbounded memory of course
13:43:18 <ais523> err, I can't rememer how to idris
13:43:28 <b_jonas> I think you remember how to perl
13:43:31 <ais523> Perl can mockingbird just fine, IIRC
13:43:51 <ais523> sub mockingbird { my $x = shift; &$x(&$x); }
13:44:16 <ais523> this is because the mockingbird is a perfectly well-defined function, it just doesn't have a sensible type in most type systems
13:44:20 <b_jonas> you mean &$x($x) instead of &$x(&$x)
13:45:10 <ais523> you can tell I've spent the last few days in languages which don't have separate concepts of "function" and "function pointer" :-)
13:45:18 <b_jonas> &$x without parenthesis is some crazy stuff that you almost never want to write, except maybe as some optimization, and is usually a mistake beginners make when they don't do that
13:45:31 <ais523> (OK, /technically/ you can construct a reference to a function in OCaml if you really want to, but it rarely has advantages over an actual function)
13:45:43 <ais523> sub mockingbird { my $x = shift; $x->($x); }
13:45:58 <ais523> also I'm pretty sure I've found legitimate uses for &$x
13:46:07 <ais523> but in such cases, what you /really/ want is often "goto &$x"
13:46:14 <b_jonas> you write crazy optimized code sometimes
13:46:24 <ais523> Perl is so unoptimized internally
13:46:32 <b_jonas> but it's really a beginner trap that shouldn't have such a simple syntax
13:46:43 <ais523> b_jonas: it's because it was the old syntax
13:46:48 <mroman_> @type let f x = x x in f id
13:46:49 <lambdabot> Occurs check: cannot construct the infinite type: t2 ~ t2 -> t1
13:46:49 <lambdabot> x :: t2 -> t1 (bound at <interactive>:1:7)
13:46:57 <b_jonas> it's all for historical reasons
13:47:11 <ais523> (and the fact that it's the old syntax is, of course, the reason it's worse than the new one)
13:47:27 <ais523> to be fair the & syntax is hugely more logical than the syntax without hte &
13:47:35 <b_jonas> I actually prefer sigil dereference syntax than arrow dereference
13:47:39 <b_jonas> I use arrows only for method calls
13:47:48 <mroman_> @type let f x = x x; f :: (a -> a) -> (a -> a) -> (a -> a) in f id
13:47:50 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘(a1 -> a1) -> a1 -> a1’
13:47:50 <lambdabot> ‘a1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
13:47:51 <b_jonas> even when it gives ugly lines starting with ${${${$
13:48:15 <mroman_> @type let f x = x x; f :: (a -> a) -> (a -> a) in f id
13:48:16 <lambdabot> Couldn't match expected type ‘a1 -> a1’ with actual type ‘a1’
13:48:16 <lambdabot> ‘a1’ is a rigid type variable bound by
13:48:16 <lambdabot> the type signature for f :: (a1 -> a1) -> a1 -> a1
13:48:26 <b_jonas> and I very rarely use implicit arrow between indexes too
13:48:37 <b_jonas> I just use the full dereference syntax basically
13:48:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I made a concious decision to move to implicit arrow in aimake a few months ago
13:49:18 <ais523> basically because I was chaining /so many/ dereferences that it made more code fit onto the screen, and if you're using it that much it's easy to get used to
13:51:13 <b_jonas> I usually write code such that I rarely have too many chained references though
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13:51:59 <b_jonas> there's also the crazy new arrow-sigil syntax
13:53:15 <ais523> that's still experimental, so I doubt anyone uses it for anything serious yet
13:53:56 <b_jonas> is it still experimental? I don't follow p5p these days
13:55:57 <b_jonas> https://metacpan.org/pod/release/RJBS/perl-5.22.0-RC1/pod/perlref.pod#Assigning-to-References
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13:57:41 <b_jonas> I don't even know how all the lexical variable aliasing stuff works because it has strange semantics with respect to closures and other scopes, something like closures getting their own copies of the pointer to scalar, rather than to the pointer to pointer to scalar,
13:58:11 <b_jonas> which is why aliasing lexicals is complicated and was kept mostly out of core so far.
13:58:35 <ais523> b_jonas: also the \$a = \$b thing was possible for ages if $a wasn't a lexical, but you had to go the long way round
13:59:02 <b_jonas> ais523: yes, but there it had easy to understand semantics … most of the time
13:59:04 <ais523> oh wow, you can alias to list slices
13:59:12 <b_jonas> because there's only one pointer to \$a , from *a
13:59:13 <ais523> I am so happy they added syntax for that, it's possible in previous versions of Perl
13:59:20 <ais523> but you have to steal the magic from @_, which looks utterly bizarre
13:59:39 <b_jonas> (there's some surprise that ($a,$b)=($b,$a); is optimized wrong if $a and $b are the same scalar)
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14:00:42 <b_jonas> ais523: definitely possible, there's a cpan module for it called Data::Alias
14:01:23 <b_jonas> anyway, you're right, postfix dereference does seem to be experimental
14:06:01 <b_jonas> hmm, they even say “Aliasing does not work correctly with closures. If you try to alias lexical variables from an inner subroutine or eval, the aliasing will only be visible within that inner sub, and will not affect the outer subroutine where the variables are declared. This bizarre behavior is subject to change.”
14:13:58 <b_jonas> By the way, the trams have a new recorded message asking people to use all doors for getting on and off the tram. I wonder if they mean a quantum superposition of using each doors.
14:14:19 <b_jonas> But I think I'm too fat for that.
14:16:26 <mroman_> I thought they wanted to make Perl *less* weird
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14:35:10 <mroman_> I'll hopefully become a music teacher one day :D
14:35:53 <mroman_> Obviously because my programming skills will be useless in a decade or two
14:37:53 <mroman_> Programming isn't exempt from automatization.
14:37:55 <b_jonas> if you know the basics, you can easily learn more stuff about programming in the future, and your knowledge won't become useless
14:40:20 <mroman_> Yeah, but programming has an "upper bound"
14:40:55 <mroman_> at some point your programming skills don't matter so much as the knowledge in other areas
14:41:27 <mroman_> at some point all the easy/trivial programming things will either be done
14:41:37 <mroman_> leaving only the highly intellectual stuff
14:41:52 <mroman_> such as writing physics simulation for the universe or chemistry or whatever
14:42:00 <mroman_> which requires specific knowledge in those areas
14:42:07 <mroman_> which I currently lack and will never have
14:42:42 <mroman_> Mostly because getting to that level of knowledge about chemistry requires years of studying
14:42:43 <b_jonas> and is teaching music better?
14:42:53 <mroman_> it's actually much easier to study a *real* subject first and then learn programming
14:43:04 <mroman_> and it makes much more sense
14:43:11 <mroman_> b_jonas: no, but I gotta do something
14:43:33 <mroman_> and besides programming my only valuable other skill is playing some music instrument
14:45:01 <mroman_> the problem is that since you have to work full-time
14:45:17 <mroman_> you don't have much time to learn a new subject to prepare yourself for becoming useless
14:45:38 <mroman_> that's a serious issue in the way work life/economics currently works
14:45:57 <mroman_> You know that some people will be useless in the feature but you don't actively can prepare them for that
14:46:13 <paul2520> any recommended academic research papers (perhaps survey papers) on esoteric languages, or just prog langs in general?
14:46:56 <mroman_> b_jonas: for example cashiers are currently starting to becoming useless
14:47:14 <mroman_> because shops are already trying to replace them with self-checkouts to some degree
14:47:31 <mroman_> so it is reasonable to assume that in a decade not as many cashiers will be required anymore as today
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14:48:13 <mroman_> which means that these people will have to look out for other things they can do
14:49:01 <mroman_> that is, as long as you don't expect some resource collapse/apocalypse in the near future
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14:49:44 <mroman_> There's only a very small amount of things a programmer with my skills can do
14:49:51 <MDude> I'm guessing that if we get a lot of automation, we'll actually go back to hand-crafted stuff to a degree.
14:49:51 <mroman_> and there are a fucking lot of programmers out there
14:50:04 <mroman_> which makes my job market value rather low
14:50:59 <mroman_> especially since other countries eventually will catch up
14:51:37 <mroman_> which means that my advantage over some programmer in another country will weaken with time
14:51:59 <mroman_> strictly analytically speaking my career has absolutely no future in programming
14:52:27 <mroman_> unless some sort of apocalypse happens of course
14:55:21 <mroman_> if things continue the way they are I'm pretty certain I'll be mostly useless in about 4 to 5 years.
14:55:25 <mroman_> and completely useless within a decade
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15:41:28 <Jafet> "Programming languages" is a bit too broad to be covered by a survey paper, or even a journal
15:42:24 <Jafet> I guess there are about twenty esoteric languages worth studying, which could be the right length for a survey paper, but I don't know anyone who's written one
15:43:59 <Jafet> (or any topical journal that would accept one...)
16:00:00 <coppro> mroman_: Personally, I think you underestimate how long it will take for programming to be obsolete like that
16:01:26 <coppro> biggest is that specifying how a program works is a big part of the program, and that is something that can't be done automatically
16:01:40 <coppro> (at least, not at the level you're thinking of)
16:02:22 <Jafet> nor manually, as it often turns out
16:03:39 <coppro> in many cases, specifying what the program does amounts to writing it
16:05:04 <coppro> and this is in some sense impossible to improve upon, due to the halting problem
16:05:34 <coppro> The only way we're going to make notable advances is if people are going to accept "good enough" artificially made programs, but then you have to trust the definition of "good enough" selected.
16:05:50 <coppro> people will be unwilling to do that
16:06:19 <coppro> the only reasonable attractive approach at the moment is genetic algorithms, and someone needs to design the evolution process and fitness metric
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16:10:38 <MDude> An example of someone doing that for BF: http://www.primaryobjects.com/CMS/Article149
16:10:55 <Jafet> I've never heard of GA as a feasible approach for program synthesis.
16:12:06 <MDude> I guess if something more automatic is wanted, the auto-programmer could translate the specification to a fitness metric for a GA instead of directly itno code?
16:14:07 <MDude> Sometime I'd like to make a deliberately presumptious compiler that interprets (in the everyday sense, not the "language interpreter" sense") a specification very loosely.
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16:28:47 <Jafet> (Feasible approaches I've heard of: optimising classifiers (http://rise4fun.com/QuickCode), Hoare refinement (http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/sumitg/pubs/vs3.html), game solving (http://termite2.org))
16:30:31 <Jafet> (I don't think GA can synthesize quicksort, for example)
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17:06:51 <MDude> I don't see how it wouldn't be able to.
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17:32:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BitChanger--]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43012&oldid=38479 * 168.99.197.15 * (+10) bold name and linkify
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17:54:29 <oren> There is another problem, which is that user interface design is hard, and judginf by the fact that it is done very poorly by humans in most cases, I don't hold much hope for automatic systems
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18:03:02 <oren> I for one believe that algorithmic problems are a rather small subset of the difficulties of writing a useful, good program.
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18:09:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Truth-machine]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43013&oldid=42971 * SuperJedi224 * (+29)
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18:34:19 <oren> error: incompatible types when assigning to type ‘struct va7’ from type ‘struct va7’
18:36:40 <b_jonas> oren: don't write int f(struct va7 x); before you declare struct va7; in global scope in C or C++
18:37:17 <b_jonas> because then the type will be declared local to that one function, which is usually not what you want
18:37:49 <b_jonas> you don't have to define the struct, only declare it
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18:38:25 <oren> yah, that fixed it
18:38:26 <b_jonas> also, maybe enable some warnings and then the compiler will probably warn about this
18:38:36 <b_jonas> that's what warnings are for
18:38:45 <oren> I have all the warnings enables
18:39:10 <oren> it warned me but it went off my scrollback
18:39:31 <b_jonas> yeah, enabling warnings doesn't help when you enable so much that you don't read them
18:40:09 <b_jonas> disable or suppress the warnings you don't want to read
18:40:46 <b_jonas> also, <fistpump in air>, I get XP for crystal ball debugging
18:41:00 <b_jonas> I've practiced a lot with idiotic coworkers
18:43:15 <b_jonas> "what config are you using" -- "the default config" -- "which default? there's multiple configs in the repository" -- no reply -- "but have you changed option foo" -- "oh yes, I've changed that" -- "how about option bar" -- "yes, I changed that too"
18:43:37 <oren> I should change my makefile so that it only displays the head of the errors
18:43:39 <b_jonas> -- "okay, please send my the exact config file you're using"
18:45:33 <b_jonas> they eventually sent the config after like two weeks
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18:46:16 <oren> heh. yeah, well... some people don't like to get helped
18:46:35 <oren> anyway if I had had the mikefile do
18:46:39 <b_jonas> sure, but when it's my coworkers and it's my job to help them it's difficult
18:46:52 <oren> gcc -Wall -Wextra 2>err; head err
18:47:01 <oren> then I should have figured it out faster
18:47:57 <oren> really, there should be an option to reverse the order of error messages from gcc
18:49:46 <oren> like an error that occurs in the start of the build process is much more likely to be the source of the problem than one that occurs after 30 other errors
18:51:49 <b_jonas> yes, but compilation is sometimes slow, so in that case I prefer to read the first error messages while compiling that having to wait for the compilation the finish and then reversing the messages
18:52:52 <oren> hm.. I guess piping it to more might work
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19:50:39 <oren> nsh are you a shell program?
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20:02:37 <tswett> I'm going to start using HTML in my IRC messages and just assuming that everyone's client understands it.
20:05:40 <myname> we should add votekicks
20:06:10 <zzo38> I doubt it is common, but you can do if you want to I suppose (my own recommendation though is that you mainly don't unless you need special formatting)
20:09:07 <oren> <b><span style="color:crimson">NOOOO </span></b>>
20:11:02 <b_jonas> tswett: sure, use script tags too in case some irc clients actually interpret the scripts in local context
20:11:35 <b_jonas> tswett: heck, and call DOM functions from them to edit other people's lines
20:11:36 <oren> <script>alert("AAAAAAAA");</script>
20:12:53 <tswett> oren: hey, why aren't you using <b style="color:crimson">?
20:13:06 <oren> the page at freenode.net/esoteric says: AAAAAAAA
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20:14:30 <b_jonas> tswett: <b><font color=dc143c> is shorter I think
20:15:40 <oren> tswett: because i am qriting trje code off topof mu heas hyh
20:17:19 <oren> i also just remembered i;m supposef to be learmimg tp touhc typw
20:18:13 <oren> thr damnh it the
20:18:46 <b_jonas> you are typing on qwerty, aren't you?
20:19:56 <oren> i'n rtyimg not to look at thr kruboard
20:20:57 <b_jonas> you can look at the screen of course
20:21:56 <b_jonas> and try to type in a steady rhythm, hit each key with consistently the same finger, and keep your hands consistently on the home row position
20:23:03 <oren> ywah you know i just realized that ^H is easier to reach than backspace
20:34:45 <tswett> Remap caps lock to backspace.
20:44:15 <oren> remap spacr + any letter to ^that letter
20:52:33 <b_jonas> remap left foot pedal to control, right foot pedal to shift
20:57:03 -!- ZombieAlive has joined.
20:58:31 <tswett> Remap backspace to brake and enter to accelerator.
20:59:44 <oren> remap shift to clutch
21:01:13 -!- `^_^v has quit (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep).
21:01:57 <tswett> A, S, D, F, and G are the forward gears and R is reverse.
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21:20:49 <MDude> SHould OpenCog atomspace be listed as an esoteric language?
21:20:51 <MDude> http://blog.opencog.org/2013/03/24/why-hypergraphs/
21:21:15 <MDude> "The bad thing about the OpenCog atomspace is that almost no one understands that, ahem, it is a programming language."
21:21:48 <MDude> I'd say most people not even realizing that it's a programming language at all makes it pretty esoteric.
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21:48:28 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
21:48:36 <fungot> ^<lang> <code>; ^def <command> <lang> <code>; ^show [command]; lang=bf/ul, code=text/str:N; ^str 0-9 get/set/add [text]; ^style [style]; ^bool
21:48:43 <zemhill_> Taneb: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
21:48:43 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
21:49:29 <lambdabot> help <command>. Ask for help for <command>. Try 'list' for all commands
21:50:43 <fungot> \o| c.c \o/ ಠ_ಠ \m/ \m/ \o_ c.c _o/ \m/ \m/ ಠ_ಠ \o/ c.c |o/
21:50:44 <myndzi> | c.c.c | ¯|¯⌠ `\o/´ | c.c.c | `\o/´ ¯|¯⌠ | c.c.c |
21:50:44 <myndzi> /< c.c >\ >\| | /`\ c.c /| | /'\|/< c.c /<
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21:51:52 <Taneb> We have a lot of bots
21:53:23 <Taneb> There's j-bot as well
21:53:29 <Taneb> But I don't know idris or J
21:57:00 <Melvar> I implemented simple string interpolation as a library in idris, did you hear?
21:57:30 -!- variable has quit (Ping timeout: 258 seconds).
21:57:30 <Melvar> (I have a hard time keeping quiet about that because I’m so proud of my ridiculousness.)
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22:04:33 <Taneb> Melvar, yes, I saw
22:05:46 * Taneb is trying to help people learn about computability
22:07:13 <sam_w> he has his work cut out
22:08:13 <oren> `run wget https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c
22:08:16 <HackEgo> --2015-05-21 22:09:11-- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c \ Resolving raw.githubusercontent.com (raw.githubusercontent.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `raw.githubusercontent.com'
22:08:52 <oren> `run wget 'https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c'
22:08:53 <HackEgo> --2015-05-21 22:09:50-- https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c \ Resolving raw.githubusercontent.com (raw.githubusercontent.com)... failed: Name or service not known. \ wget: unable to resolve host address `raw.githubusercontent.com'
22:08:59 <Taneb> oren, I think it is whitelisted for URLs
22:09:37 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
22:10:06 <HackEgo> Runs arbitrary code in GNU/Linux. Type "`<command>", or "`run <command>" for full shell commands. "`fetch <URL>" downloads files. Files saved to $PWD are persistent, and $PWD/bin is in $PATH. $PWD is a mercurial repository, "`revert <rev>" can be used to revert to a revision. See http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/
22:10:18 <oren> `fetch https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c
22:10:22 <HackEgo> 2015-05-21 22:11:18 URL:https://raw.githubusercontent.com/orenwatson/scrip7/master/scrip7.c [21889/21889] -> "scrip7.c" [1]
22:11:13 <oren> `run gcc scrip7.c -lm -fwrapv -o /bin/scrip7
22:11:18 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file /bin/scrip7: Read-only file system \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
22:11:35 <oren> `run gcc scrip7.c -lm -fwrapv -o ~/bin/scrip7
22:11:36 <HackEgo> /usr/bin/ld: cannot open output file /tmp/bin/scrip7: No such file or directory \ collect2: error: ld returned 1 exit status
22:11:55 <oren> `run gcc scrip7.c -lm -fwrapv -o bin/scrip7
22:13:06 <oren> `run echo 'I=%ffffffffffffffff _pX' | scrip7
22:13:17 <oren> `run echo 'I=%7fffffffffffffff _pX' | scrip7
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22:15:06 <Taneb> oren, I think you need a backtick
22:15:24 <Melvar> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000 _pX' | scrip7
22:17:13 <oren> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000 Y>1 Y=1 Y/X _pY' | scrip7
22:17:36 <oren> one over negative zero is negative infinty. seems legit
22:18:39 -!- ZombieAlive has joined.
22:18:41 <oren> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000Y>1Y=1Y/X_pY' | scrip7
22:18:47 <oren> `run echo 'I=%8000000000000000 Y>1Y=1Y/X_pY' | scrip7
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22:19:12 <oren> Hmm why do I need a space there again?
22:20:52 <oren> `run echo 'a='Y a+30 a%39 _pa' | scrip7
22:20:53 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
22:21:04 <oren> `run echo "a='Y a+30 a%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:21:17 <oren> right, Y is a valid hex digit
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22:22:25 <oren> `run echo "a='F a+30 a%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:22:44 <oren> `run echo "a='f a+30 a%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:23:04 <Melvar> What are the hex digits then?
22:23:23 <oren> hmm I'm not sure
22:23:29 <oren> it might be a bug
22:23:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RDF-fuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43014 * Zzo38 * (+2309) Created page with "This is experiment to make a programming language with RDF graphs like [[XMLfuck]] is using XML documents. It is like [[brainfuck]] because it is a simple way to do and becaus..."
22:24:11 <oren> except that the code somehow works
22:24:32 <zzo38> They made XMLfuck therefore now I can make RDF-fuck too
22:24:49 <Taneb> How do I tell if 4^n is in O(2^n)
22:25:36 <oren> 4^n/2^n = (4/2)^n = 2^n --> infty therefore it isnt
22:27:04 <oren> `run echo "a='f _pa" | scrip7
22:27:22 <oren> `run echo "a='f a+30 _pa" | scrip7
22:27:40 <oren> `run echo "I='f I+30 I%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:27:43 <zzo38> The page I just added to esolang wiki contains many external links although most are links to non-existent anchors on the page itself; a few are to W3.
22:27:46 <oren> `run echo "I='F I+30 I%39 _pa" | scrip7
22:32:41 <Taneb> The mark scheme has it more formally
22:33:09 <oren> `run echo "J>1 J=' [ I=J I+30 I%39 Il15 _.I # Jl'~ } #" | scrip7
22:33:59 <oren> `run echo "J>1 J=' [ I=J I+30 I%39 Il15 _.I # J+1 Jl'~ } #" | scrip7
22:34:38 <oren> `run echo "J>1 J=' [ I=J I+30 I%39 Il15 _.J # J+1 Jl'~ } #" | scrip7
22:34:39 <HackEgo> 0123456789:;<=>?WXYZ[\]^_`abcdef~
22:34:48 <oren> those are the valid hex digits
22:36:10 <oren> Y is therefore the same as uh... 2
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22:37:39 <oren> because the hevily simplified formula I used was that if the caharcter i, plus 30, mod 39 is less than 16, it's a valid didigt
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22:38:37 <oren> this gives the characters 0-9 and a-f their correct values, but allows a bounch of other chars to be valid
22:40:04 <oren> The code above goes thru the characters from space to ~ and outputs the ones which are valid by this rule
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23:36:44 <lambdabot> CYUL 212300Z 22015G21KT 30SM FEW060 FEW080 FEW240 18/01 A2975 RMK CU1AC1CI1 CU TR SLP074 DENSITY ALT 600FT
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23:46:57 <Taneb> Anyone has any idea when the next IOCCC'll be?
23:49:30 <MDude> International Offensive Creata-a-Contest Contest?
23:50:09 <MDude> I want a contest where the objective is to make a good contest.
23:50:33 <Taneb> Alas, I was referring to the less interesting International Obfuscated C Coding Contest
23:51:52 <MDude> Contests are evaluated based on participation turnout, viewership and judge discernment abilitiy.
23:52:05 <MDude> Or critera quality.
23:52:15 <MDude> Obfuscated C contest sounds nice though.
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00:11:57 <boily> MDudello. the IOCCC has produced many mind-bending gems.
00:12:05 <boily> I think my favourite is the tiling program.
00:12:19 <boily> Tanelle. do you still boardgame?
00:12:53 <Taneb> Or however many cs and ss that word has
00:13:09 <Taneb> Haven't for a couple of weeks, though
00:13:45 <boily> ah, the joys of studenting...
00:14:22 <Taneb> Got two more this season, both next week
00:14:29 <Taneb> One on Tuesday about computability and complexity
00:14:38 <Taneb> And one on Thursday about groups, rings, and fields
00:14:42 <Taneb> Not too worried about any of them
00:15:42 <Taneb> I should go to bed now, though
00:15:49 <Taneb> Didn't get much sleep last night
00:54:49 <HackEgo> olist 987: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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01:21:21 <shachaf> boily: what is a godsmoot twh
01:25:01 <oren> i had some triuble renemberisnf what froups tings and fields are
01:26:57 <boily> helloren. still touchtyping?
01:27:10 <boily> shachaf: you'd probably be better off asking the fungot hth
01:27:10 <fungot> boily: the comrades of washington projected this monument. their love inspired it. their fear betrays to the first faint rumours of this calamity pitt would give no adequate representation to moslem opinion. in bombay the moslems are fnord/ 4 fnord per cent.
01:27:37 <boily> shachaf: first google hit here: http://mrtehcyborg.tumblr.com/post/116757446518/nihhussa-oh-my-god
01:28:24 <boily> oren: http://www.keybr.com/#!game
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01:28:32 <HackEgo> Prime: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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02:22:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:XMLfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43015&oldid=29733 * Zzo38 * (+258)
02:22:48 <oren> Dad: "Hey oren, see if you can spot the gap in this proof." Me: "Uhh, is the gap where it says 'obviously'?"
02:28:14 <oren> Apparently my dad has invented a sport of finding crappy papers in supposedly reputable journals
02:28:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[XMLfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43016&oldid=15399 * Zzo38 * (+29)
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02:56:56 <oren> how do you pronounce häagen dazs?
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03:14:18 <zzo38> Do you know if there is any free/open-source software to create MOD/XM/S3M that can use a piano-roll editor? I want to know so that I can add it into the AmigaMML wiki comparison charts.
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04:35:38 <Nihilumbra> http://i.imgur.com/69uwy8ql.jpg I drew a thing
04:43:15 <zzo38> What is it supposed to be a picture of though? Some kind of strange person?
04:44:15 <Nihilumbra> When I'm not working on coding projects for people
04:46:52 <Nihilumbra> You make the OK as if its like OK wow what a creep
04:48:21 <zzo38> No, I meant, OK you can make such stuff if you don't have the other stuff to do
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04:59:04 <oren> good mroing Nihilumbra. That looks similar to some of Frida Kahlo's more... esoteric, works
05:04:26 <oren> Frida Kahlo is an artist of 20th century mexico, the wife of Diego Rivera
05:07:57 <Sgeo> I think I need an Ubuntu livecd
05:08:04 <MDude> Looks more like something on a metal album cover.
05:08:28 <MDude> Wait no, that deer with a man head would fit on one too.
05:10:03 <oren> Yeah, the little deer is the one I was thinking it sort of looked like, the animal-human surrealist morphing
05:11:51 <oren> Also she painted this one where her organs ther heart and lungs are shown through her clothing which reminded me
05:12:55 <oren> Ubuntu livecd? Well you'll need a cd burner and a blank cd, which are less common nowadays
05:13:23 <oren> only my oldest laptop has a bourner
05:13:34 <Nihilumbra> I used to have a lot of works on my computer but it got wiped
05:13:55 <Nihilumbra> So I'm buying a new drawing tablet and re drawing some old stuff
05:15:21 <Sgeo> Ugh this website is so scummy
05:15:42 <Sgeo> A million download ads, and "Please note that SolMiRe does not allow the download of any uploaded midi files."
05:15:46 <Sgeo> in small print
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05:59:10 <oren> helloerjan. good mroing ais523
06:02:43 -!- oerjan has set topic: <fungot> oerjan: i've gotten to the metacircular evaluation chapter? | The chanteau | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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06:11:48 <oren> `run echo 'O=8"*16hello a=11 N=8 aW1' | scrip7
06:12:37 * oerjan has no idea what tte misspells
06:12:51 <oren> `run echo 'O=8"*13hello a=11 N=8 aW1' | scrip7
06:13:25 <oren> whu dosnr this work?
06:17:01 <oren> `run echo 'O=8"*13hello a=3 N=8 aW1' | scrip7
06:19:25 <oren> so colors are with ^C
06:19:42 <oren> `run echo 'O=8"*13;12hello a=3 N=8 aW1' | scrip7
06:20:05 <oren> `run echo 'O=11"*13,12hello a=3 N=11 aW1' | scrip7
06:23:09 <oren> `run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=22 a=3 N=11 aW1' | scrip7
06:24:15 <oren> `run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=3 a=22 N=11 aW1' | scrip7
06:24:22 <oren> `run echo 'O=12"**13,12hello a(1=3 a=22 N=12 aW1' | scrip7
06:24:47 <oren> so bright colors can be used as background if you set reverse video
06:26:53 <oren> `run echo 'O=12"*76hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7
06:27:11 <oren> `run echo 'O=9"*76hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7
06:28:08 <oren> `run echo 'O=10"*208hello? a=3 N=12 aW1' | scrip7
06:28:25 <oren> `run echo 'O=10"*208hello? a=3 N=10 aW1' | scrip7
06:29:59 <oren> `run echo 'O=10"*99hello? a=3 N=10 aW1' | scrip7
06:31:39 <oren> So it's doing a %16 on it
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06:41:23 <oerjan> @let cne 0 f x = modify(+1) >> return x; cne n f x = cne (n-1) e f x >>= f
06:41:25 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘Expr’ with ‘Expr -> a0’
06:41:37 <oerjan> @let cne 0 f x = modify(+1) >> return x; cne n f x = cne (n-1) f x >>= f
06:42:29 <oerjan> > flip execState 0 $ cne 2 (cne 2) undefined
06:42:31 <lambdabot> Couldn't match type ‘a10 -> m0 a10’
06:42:31 <lambdabot> with ‘StateT s Identity (a10 -> m0 a10)’
06:42:31 <lambdabot> Expected type: (a10 -> m0 a10) -> StateT s Identity (a10 -> m0 a10)
06:42:41 <lambdabot> (Eq a, Num a, Num s, MonadState s m) => a -> (a1 -> m a1) -> a1 -> m a1
06:55:57 <oren> `run echo 'O={Maybe this will work?} a=3 aL'} aW1' | scrip7
06:55:58 <HackEgo> bash: -c: line 0: unexpected EOF while looking for matching `'' \ bash: -c: line 1: syntax error: unexpected end of file
06:56:11 <oren> `run echo "O={Maybe this will work?} a=3 aL'} aW1" | scrip7
06:56:24 <oren> `run echo "O={Maybe this will work?} aL'} aW1" | scrip7
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07:51:15 <b_jonas> hello, ais523. have you figured out a fix for the StackFlow interpreter over M:tG yet?
07:51:28 <ais523> I've had a lot of other things to think about
08:12:19 <oerjan> <oren> how do you pronounce häagen dazs? <-- istr those words are made up.
08:12:55 <oerjan> so, "american", i think.
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09:43:35 <FireFly> Indeed they are. They're supposed to look scandinavian, but neither the äa nor the z is really scandinavian... it looks more german to me
09:44:04 <FireFly> Although I'm not sure if äa makes any sense in german either
09:53:03 <b_jonas> FireFly: no, I think it's supposed to look foreign for everyone
09:53:14 <b_jonas> so they can sell anywhere under the same name
09:53:32 <b_jonas> that's why the name looks so riddiculous
09:53:58 <fungot> mroman_: the reason, too, have received instructions for the part i have undertaken as plain and intelligible as i possibly can. i want to tell you just how to do it.
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10:10:20 <FireFly> b_jonas: apparently it was danish that they tried to approximate: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Häagen-Dazs#Origin_of_brand_name
10:10:49 <FireFly> Admittedly, at least Häagen-Dazs doesn't look as ridiculous in swedish as Frusen glädjé does
10:11:47 <FireFly> fungot: roger that. Clear and intelligible instructions are very useful.
10:11:47 <fungot> FireFly: the causes of that great and enlightened city, a run on the bank of england; whose credit had often supported a tottering state, and the waves run high, that the influence of these feelings, m. d'angers, the sculptor, his part in the memoirs of marmontel. many others might be fnord or not, before it can be done by a succession of absolute monarchs, guaranteed by irresistible force against the fnord heresy. but, when i
10:12:12 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: style: not found
10:12:14 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches* ss wp youtube
10:12:43 <fungot> Selected style: speeches (misc. speeches from Project Gutenberg)
10:12:57 <fizzie> fungot: Are you sure they used the word fnord that much?
10:12:58 <fungot> fizzie: what are the elements of true greatness. of mankind i fnord the landing on plymouth rock? theirs indeed, were not merely as probable, but as evanescent, and that
10:13:26 <mroman_> fungot is all about the fnord.
10:13:27 <fungot> mroman_: " so you can see fnord all about where she has strained herself trying to do a lot of them; and i am persuaded that we have generally had a great battle which arrested the armies of europe, and also if they choose; but the executive, of france, who was generally the mouthpiece of the administration did i place more confidence than in the provision and distribution of the public weal enjoy high consideration, and i was
10:13:29 <b_jonas> FireFly: what's "Frusen glädjé"?
10:14:11 <FireFly> b_jonas: some competitor founded the same year, apparently, mentioned in the aforementioned article
10:14:38 <FireFly> I've never heard of them apart from that
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10:31:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniMAX]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43017&oldid=42973 * Ais523 * (+0) /* Example */ typo fix
10:32:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[MiniMAX]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43018&oldid=43017 * Ais523 * (+8) /* Computational class */ clarification
10:36:22 <ais523> ä and é in the same word? ouch
10:39:07 <Taneb> Almost like naivete?
10:39:17 <Taneb> Except with more dots and swoops and stuff
10:39:36 <ais523> oh, but that's a diaeresis, not an umlaut
10:39:56 <ais523> that ä can't be a diaeresis because the preceding letter's a consonant
10:40:34 <ais523> or, well, I guess you could claim that l is a vowel, but people don't normally use diaereses with vowels as dubious as that
10:41:27 <ais523> can #esoteric help me feel better about mockingbirds, bt?
10:41:34 <ais523> I tried plugging some of them into my day job research
10:41:40 <ais523> and the implications are driving me mad
10:41:49 <ais523> they have a tendency to explode type systems
10:42:03 <Taneb> They're a kind of bird
10:42:51 <b_jonas> explode how exactly? do they violate occurs check in type unification, or straight up try to unify two unequal non-unifyable types, or some other way?
10:43:36 <b_jonas> ais523: can you use more specialized less powerful loop functions instead, ones that are well-typed?
10:43:49 <ais523> the occurs check is basically a hack that's designed to stop mockingbirds crashing the compiler
10:43:51 <b_jonas> fold and unfold and the like
10:43:55 <ais523> and if I feed them to my compiler atm, it crashes ;-)
10:43:59 <Taneb> What do you mean by mockingbird?
10:44:28 <ais523> hurts to look at, right?
10:44:36 <Taneb> :: (a = a -> a) => a?
10:44:45 <ais523> b_jonas: anyway, in my current type theory, a mockingbird is actually well-typed
10:44:47 <ais523> but the double mockingbird isn't
10:45:11 <ais523> and when I run through the type inference algo to find out why, bad things start happening
10:45:30 <b_jonas> what's the double mockingbird? I'm not good in ornithology
10:45:44 <ais523> e.g. it works by constructing a table of definitions, but gives two different definitions for the same thing, which nonetheless seem to converge
10:45:57 <ais523> b_jonas: (\x.x(x))(\x.x(x))
10:46:20 <ais523> it's basically the Henkin statement of untyped lambda calculus
10:46:38 <ais523> if you try to work out what type it has, about the best you can do is to determine that it has the same type as itself
10:47:48 <b_jonas> and can you debug the compiler to see how exactly it crashes?
10:48:04 <b_jonas> like, as in stack blowup or memory trashing or something?
10:48:21 <ais523> b_jonas: the current algo is stack blowup, it tries to generate infintely many type constraints
10:48:28 <ais523> I'm working on a new algo manually
10:48:42 <ais523> where I can notice if things blow up before they exhaust my text document ;-)
10:49:20 <Taneb> ais523, is it really bad if you can't type something which can't be typed?
10:49:37 <ais523> Taneb: no, you'd expect to not type something that can't be typed
10:49:51 <ais523> but you want to know why it doesn't type
10:50:07 <ais523> note that type inference for intersection types is equivalent to the halting problem
10:50:16 <ais523> and in about the most direct possible way, too: the term has a type if and only if it halts
10:51:42 <Taneb> Are all semidecidable problems equivalent to the halting problem?
10:53:11 <ais523> I don't see a reason why a semidecidable problem would necessarily be equivalent to the halting problem
10:53:17 <ais523> it's amusing how that one is, though
10:53:34 <ais523> problem equivalence is basically never that astonishingly exact
10:54:27 <b_jonas> as for semi-decidable stuff, there's this nice new algebraic topology result I've been reading: http://arxiv.org/abs/1302.2370v1
10:54:37 <b_jonas> Martin Cadek, Marek Krcal, Jiri Matousek, Lukas Vokrinek, Uli Wagner, "Extendability of continuous maps is undecidable"
10:55:15 <b_jonas> yeah, I don't understand it either, but (one of) the results it proves itself is easy enough to understand (without proof)
10:55:44 <ais523> aa((!((aa)(!))))*:*^!**^a*^a*aa*(*:*^!**^)*^
10:55:45 <Taneb> Oooh, I'm doing a module in topology next year
10:55:49 <ais523> the scariest line of Underload I've seen
10:55:55 <ais523> I still don't really understand it
10:56:06 <Taneb> It just looks like screaming, ais523
10:56:07 <ais523> (oerjan came up with it, somehow)
10:56:14 <ais523> Taneb: it's an implementation of ~ without using ~
10:56:32 <ais523> this violates my mental model of substructual logics
10:56:32 <b_jonas> some similar results have been known for long, like that it's RE but not recursive to decide which pairs of simplicial complexes are homotopic
10:56:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I like the way you can say "simplicial complexes" with the IRC version of a straight face
10:57:51 <ais523> hmm, we need more ad-hoc prove-this-interesting-language-TC contests
10:57:57 <ais523> the last time was resplicate, i think
10:57:58 <b_jonas> what? "simplicial complex" is just the easiest to understand finite representation of "nice" finite dimensional topological spaces up to homeomorphism
10:58:08 <ais523> b_jonas: I was thinking of the name
10:58:29 <b_jonas> it's like when you say "represented in binary" about integers
10:58:31 <ais523> it sounds completely absurd if you don't know what it means
10:58:52 <b_jonas> in computability yuo have to take care about how you represent stuff
10:58:58 <b_jonas> so you get this kind of thing all the time
10:59:17 <b_jonas> also, topology people work with really crazy spaces, but simplicial complexes are nice spaces
10:59:33 <ais523> a simplex is basically just a generalized tetrahedron, right?
11:01:06 <b_jonas> ais523: and a simplicial complex is a space given as a union of simplexes such that (1) each lower-dimensional side of each simplex is in the set and (2) any two non-disjoint simplexes in the set intersect in a simplex that's the side of both of those simplexes.
11:01:34 <b_jonas> so it's like a polyhedron of any finite dimension but without half-overlapping faces and star-shaped faces all those ugly stuff
11:01:46 <ais523> it's basically the way it can be simple and complex at the same time
11:01:49 <b_jonas> it's like fully triangulated
11:01:57 <b_jonas> oh, that's why it sounds funny?
11:02:06 <b_jonas> but you have "simple complex lie algebras" too
11:02:19 <b_jonas> mind you, that's a different sense of "complex"
11:03:22 <ais523> hmm, my favourite name for anything is still a macro from Perl: SV_CHECK_THINKFIRST_COW_DROP
11:03:39 <b_jonas> the easy way to get simplicial complexes (and you can get any, up to homeomorphism) is to take n vertices (where n is natural number) affine independent in an n-1 dimensional space, and then any set of simplexes over that.
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11:03:46 <b_jonas> then there can be no uglyness.
11:03:58 <boily> ais523: hellais523. what is it for?
11:04:09 <b_jonas> we just usually imagine simplicial complexes in lower-dimensional container spaces because they're easier to draw.
11:04:43 <ais523> boily: the Perl macro? it checks to see if a scalar has special properties that would make normal-seeming operations on it not work; if the only such problem is copy-on-writeness, it does the copy
11:04:48 <ais523> so that it isn't copy-on-write any more
11:05:12 <b_jonas> ais523: ok, but what does the CHECK part mean?
11:05:18 <ais523> it checks to see if it's thinkfirst
11:05:31 <b_jonas> oh, so does this like return a boolean?
11:05:34 <ais523> (thinkfirst being a property that means that you can't do weird things to it, sort-of like the opposite of Plain Old Data)
11:05:40 <ais523> and also drops the cow as a side effect
11:06:14 <boily> Scalar Variable Check Weird Properties Drop COW. makes sense.
11:06:48 <ais523> my brain still expands "SV" to "scalar container", because Perl makes so much more sense with that mental expansion
11:06:55 <ais523> even though the acronym doesn't fit then
11:07:05 <boily> perhaps it's a vontainer?
11:07:25 <ais523> this explains why $x = 4 doesn't change any SV (just the /contents/ of an SV)
11:08:03 <ais523> right, unless $x doesn't exist at the time
11:08:20 <b_jonas> or it exists and is magical or tied or something
11:08:23 <ais523> in which case a new SV is created, and placed in *x{SCALAR} (which is also an SV; hash elements are)
11:08:35 <ais523> oh yes, if it's magical anything could happen
11:09:01 <b_jonas> um, *x{SCALAR} isn't a hash element
11:09:05 <ais523> I'm not sure how much of the slowness of my memory profiler is due to the fact that it's doing profiling activities during the main loop, and how much is just a consequence of making every single scalar magical
11:09:13 <b_jonas> do you mean $somepackage::{x} as the hash element?
11:09:32 <ais523> ($somepackage::{x} /is/ *x, right?)
11:09:50 <ais523> actually, is it *x or \*x?
11:10:08 <ais523> counting the number of containers involved in something can be weird
11:10:19 <ais523> especially because you can put an array in an SV just fine; you're not meant to but it works
11:10:22 <b_jonas> it can also be one of two magical optimization values: a reference to a scalar or a reference to a sub, or something
11:10:36 <b_jonas> and it can just not exist yet
11:10:40 <ais523> oh, so if you avoid having two variables with the same name, the program is faster?
11:10:42 <b_jonas> (as in the pair doesn't exist int he hash)
11:10:45 <ais523> Perl optimizations always sound so weird
11:11:04 <ais523> because their purpose is to make Perl work vaguely like other languages, as opposed to what would normally be considered a variable
11:11:13 <b_jonas> ais523: I think the optimization applies for constants only, which somehow magically work as both a sub and a scalar
11:11:14 <ais523> b_jonas: well if you have both $x and @x, then *x will need to be an actual glob
11:11:24 <ais523> oh right, that'd make sense
11:11:32 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I think if you have $x as a plain package variable then it has to be an actual glob
11:11:38 <ais523> constants are subs internally, for most purposes
11:11:40 <b_jonas> nad if you have @x then it _definitely_ has to be an actual glob
11:11:47 <b_jonas> and possibly $x has to exist as well
11:11:49 <ais523> I thought the ruling was "currently they're subs but that might change in future"
11:12:03 <b_jonas> ais523: no, I mean you can access them as scalar
11:12:44 <ais523> both at a) that being old, and b) my reaction on realising 5.14 is old
11:12:48 <ais523> Perl really has been releasing a lot recently
11:13:26 <b_jonas> but just look at Linux, do you know what version number they're at? 5.0
11:13:29 <b_jonas> it doesn't even look right
11:13:58 <ais523> b_jonas: Linus announced a new policy of incrementing the major version number whenever he feels like it, without any particular significance
11:14:08 <ais523> because otherwise it seemed doomed to stick at 2 indefinitely
11:14:17 <b_jonas> when they bumped the version number to 3.0, some user processes or libraries balked because they expected the uname to be 2.6.*
11:14:43 <ais523> that's a good argument for doing it more often
11:14:59 <ais523> otherwise you end up with the Windows 10 issue
11:15:12 <b_jonas> I've seen such a problem at work
11:15:22 <b_jonas> but a moment let me try this perl stuff still
11:17:06 <b_jonas> anyway, I've created video files that are encoded with fake timestamps, and you had to convert between the real timestamp and the fake timestamp using an auxiliary file
11:17:58 <b_jonas> but the problem is, I chose the wrong frame rate for the fake timestamps, and at the point when the stuff started to work, the real timestamps were very uniform linearly distributed and at the exact same framerate as the fake timestamp.
11:18:07 <b_jonas> the conversions were wrong at some points but because of this we didn't notice.
11:18:22 <b_jonas> I chose the wrong framerate for the fake stuff because it was too correct.
11:18:38 <b_jonas> Later we got videos with higher real framerate, and the errors started to show.
11:21:52 <b_jonas> And I can even blame myself because there was a time when I should have foreseen that this would happen and could have changed the fake timestamp framerate.
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11:37:04 <fizzie> I'm surprised that `perl -e worked, since due to ` it had the effect of perl '-e print $]' -- I guess Perl's just being very unpicky about arguments.
11:37:09 <HackEgo> Linux umlbox 3.13.0-umlbox #1 Wed Jan 29 12:56:45 UTC 2014 x86_64 GNU/Linux
11:37:23 <fizzie> (That would've been fine either way, of course, since it only has the one argument.)
11:37:55 <ais523> fizzie: Perl's generally fine with argument stacking
11:40:03 <fizzie> Yes, although perldoc perlrun synopsis doesn't really suggest that. It's got e.g. [ -Fpattern ] but for -e it has [ [-e|-E] 'command' ] which makes it look like it "should" be separate.
11:41:46 <fizzie> Guess the difference is that for e.g. -F it can't be separated, while -e is fine either way.
11:49:35 <b_jonas> fizzie: why would that not work? most programs can take the argument for a switch in the same command-line argument or a different command-line argument
11:49:41 <b_jonas> fizzie: eg. either perl -e foo or perl -efoo works
11:49:52 <b_jonas> a few programs are more picky, but most aren't
11:51:20 <fizzie> Maybe I've just run across the picky ones more often than is standard. Although I can't recall any particular examples.
11:51:45 <fizzie> The usual suspects (sed, dc) seem to be friendly, too.
11:52:44 <b_jonas> fizzie: or maybe you just usually used a separate arg
11:53:09 <b_jonas> anyway, perl is parsing its command-line arguments in an untypical way, mostly to make shebang magic easier, but this isn't an example for it
11:53:58 <fizzie> Well, to quote POSIX: "The Utility Syntax Guidelines in Utility Syntax Guidelines require that the option be a separate argument from its option-argument, but there are some exceptions in IEEE Std 1003.1-2001 to ensure continued operation of historical applications: --"
11:54:14 <fizzie> "If the SYNOPSIS of a standard utility shows a <space> between an option and option-argument (as with [ -c option_argument] in the example), a conforming application shall use separate arguments for that option and its option-argument."
11:55:14 <b_jonas> fizzie: ok... but still, at least gnu programs usually call the libc getopt_long function which behaves this way.
11:55:16 <ais523> POSIX's option syntax is basically not used by anything, though
11:55:22 <ais523> ayacc uses it, but that shouldn't really be surprising
11:55:38 <b_jonas> except of course gcc which has a more complicated syntax for historical reasons
11:55:40 <fizzie> It does explicitly allow the "normal" getopt way.
11:55:41 <ais523> possibly the only time I've found Getopt::Std to be useful
11:55:45 <fizzie> "A standard utility may also be implemented to operate correctly when the required separation into multiple arguments is violated by a non-conforming application."
11:58:07 <b_jonas> I never used Getopt::Std in perl. I used Getopt::Long many times, though its default settings are idiotic (accepts + as an option starter) so I always cargo-cult this from a previous program:
11:58:12 <b_jonas> Getopt::Long::Configure "bundling", "gnu_compat", "prefix_pattern=(--|-)";
11:59:15 <fizzie> I like those programs that accept -foo to enable foo, and +foo to disable foo. They are delightfully unintuitive.
12:00:04 <b_jonas> fizzie: I wish programs started to use -t- as the negation of -t
12:00:22 <b_jonas> I mean, the hyphen can't be used as an option letter because of -- anyway, so this seems like the obvious syntax
12:00:26 <b_jonas> but no-one I've seen is using it
12:00:37 <b_jonas> they're just using --no-foo as the negation of --foo
12:00:46 <b_jonas> or another letter or something
12:00:50 <b_jonas> like -H being the negation of -h
12:01:09 <fizzie> splint uses +foo for turning foo on, and -foo for turning foo off. I can't remember what does the opposite, but I clearly remember it.
12:01:25 <b_jonas> yes, I know some programs do
12:01:29 <b_jonas> even with single-letter options
12:01:51 <b_jonas> but it's dangerous because you expect + to start a normal non-option argument
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12:42:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RLS]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43019 * EzoLang * (+2189) Created page with "'''rLS''' (revised/reduced Lambdastack) is a stack programming language based on [[Lambdastack]]. It removes most of the ugliness and several features from the old one, but al..."
12:45:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:EzoLang]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43020&oldid=39324 * EzoLang * (-18) Add rLS to language list and reformat
12:46:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43021&oldid=42981 * EzoLang * (+14) Add rLS
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13:24:58 <Taneb> If I have a ring and a and b in the ring such that neither are 0, and a*b = 0, does a uniquely determine b?
13:25:22 <ais523> my initial thought is "no"
13:25:34 <Taneb> Worked it out just after I wrote it
13:25:35 <ais523> but my intuitions might be off because I've spent so long working with /semi/rings
13:25:39 <ais523> and thus I'm missing a couple of axioms
13:25:50 <Taneb> Z/8Z, 2*4 = 0, and 4*4 = 0
13:26:13 <b_jonas> ais523: because b=0 is always a solution, and there are other solutions in some rings
13:26:15 <ais523> Taneb: that's a ring? what are the multiplicative inverses?
13:26:21 <ais523> b_jonas: "neither are 0"
13:26:38 <ais523> I'll buy it as a semiring, but not as a full ring
13:26:52 <Taneb> ais523, rings don't have multiplicative inverses
13:26:53 <b_jonas> ais523: um, it's a _ring_. it doesn't have to have multiplicative inverses
13:27:06 <b_jonas> ais523: if it had multiplicative inverses, then it was a division ring aka skew-field
13:27:06 <ais523> so a semiring is a 3/4field?
13:27:20 <ais523> or 1/4field? or whatever?
13:27:26 <ais523> terminology is weird sometimes
13:27:37 <b_jonas> no, there's no such thing as a "semi-field
13:27:54 <b_jonas> (what were the crazy french terms for these two?)
13:29:50 <b_jonas> (“anneau à division” and “corps gauche” apparently)
13:31:22 <b_jonas> Taneb: yes, though “gauche” is used in a different meaning
13:31:32 <Taneb> My French is not very good
13:31:41 <b_jonas> the “corps” for “field” makes sense, it's reusing “field” in English that doesn't
13:32:26 <b_jonas> “field” is used as two unrelated mathematical root words in English that's distinguished in other languages
13:32:35 <b_jonas> English mathematical terminology is sometimes crazy
13:32:55 <b_jonas> mind you, it's not more crazy than those in other languages
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13:33:18 <b_jonas> ais523: no, English in general is way more crazy than other languages
13:33:28 <ais523> trying to get to sleep recently, I was going over words that formed gerunds via -tion and via -ing
13:33:32 <ais523> and completely failed to spot a pattern
13:33:39 <ais523> (also some verbs didn't form gerunds either way)
13:33:49 <Taneb> ais523, action vs acting
13:34:09 <b_jonas> the mathematical terminology is actually less crazy than most of English, and probably not more crazy than in other languages
13:34:28 <ais523> Taneb: oh bleh, those are both gerunds of different senses of "act", aren't they?
13:34:47 <b_jonas> I think two mathematical root words co-inciding happens in other languages too, it definitely happens in Hungarian because there's too few people inventing good maths terms for Hungarian
13:34:58 <ais523> b_jonas: are you one of them?
13:35:15 <ais523> actually I've seen this happening in game semantics
13:35:31 <ais523> there's debate about the meaning of "play" and "position", the meanings are swapped in some papers
13:35:52 <ais523> which, IMO, is evidence that an extended metaphor that doesn't fit properly is an awful way to produce mathematical terminology
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13:36:49 <mroman_> Mathematicians are always trying to put a ring on it
13:36:53 <b_jonas> there's like ten root words that mostly miss a Hungarian equvalent, in particular, one of "disk" and "circle" and one of "ball" and "sphere" is missing, even though we _would_ actually have suitable short words for them but people aren't using them in maths,
13:37:39 <mroman_> they should teach university level math in english
13:37:53 <b_jonas> and it's worth in algorithms: nobody has figured out good enough words for "deque" and "trie" etc (and "stack" and "hash" have only half-good translations too)
13:37:58 <mroman_> mainly because if you read english papers you have no idea what they are talking about
13:38:12 <Taneb> I think they should teach it in Greek and Latin
13:38:17 <Taneb> With maybe a little German
13:38:18 <b_jonas> mroman_: that doesn't work, because when people enter the university, they don't speak enough English yet, they learn it in the first three years
13:38:27 <ais523> b_jonas: well, "deque" is an abbreviation for "double ended queue", so I guess take the same words in Hungarian then abbreviate into whatever seems pronounceable
13:38:28 <mroman_> b_jonas: Maybe in your country
13:38:29 <b_jonas> mroman_: teaching in Hungarian in the first few years reduces the latency of that
13:38:36 <mroman_> english is tought to little 8 year old kids in switzerland
13:38:48 <b_jonas> ais523: but it's also a crazy pun on "deck" in English
13:39:00 <ais523> (or unpronounceable, IME Hungarians tend to get quite good at pronouncing random series of letters)
13:39:03 <b_jonas> mroman_: right, that works in Switzerland and Sweden
13:39:07 <Taneb> b_jonas, I was taught to pronounce it "dee-cue"
13:39:12 <ais523> I was unaware of the pun and don't thing it's particularly important
13:39:21 <ais523> OTOH, "trie" definitely is a pun, but not really one that's worth saving
13:39:29 <b_jonas> Taneb: doesn't Knuth prescribe to pronounce it the same as "deck"?
13:40:01 <Taneb> I guess it's like a deck of cards
13:40:14 <ais523> b_jonas: well Knuth commissioned a new version of C-INTERCAL semi-recently
13:40:21 <mroman_> A deck of cards is a deque.
13:40:32 <mroman_> with random access if you're good enough
13:40:36 <ais523> so it may just be a complex act of trolling
13:40:52 <ais523> b_jonas: you probably wouldn't be surprised at how quickly that version came out :-)
13:40:55 <b_jonas> ais523: but I mean, iirc he specifically said it's a pun on "deck" and pronounced like that and that a deck of cards is a deque
13:41:07 <b_jonas> ais523: and writes this in TAOCP I believe, which is a serious enough work
13:41:09 <ais523> how often do people draw from the bottom of the deck?
13:41:12 <b_jonas> sure, it has jokes but still
13:41:21 <mroman_> ais523: More than they are willing to admit.
13:41:22 <Taneb> ais523, could I get a source for the Knuth C-Intercal thing?
13:41:36 <b_jonas> ais523: rarely, but that's because of power issues rather than because of it technically being hard
13:42:00 <b_jonas> ais523: but it does happen:
13:42:06 <ais523> Taneb: it was an email from his secretary to ESR that I eventually got copied into, but ESR mentions its existence here: http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2491
13:42:33 <b_jonas> in some games, the trump gets determined by flipping the bottom card of the deck, and sometimes you can even access the card above that, though even then to only a limited depth so it's not _really_ a deque
13:42:53 <ais523> (when reading that page as a whole, it's worth remembering what you know about me and mentally reconciling it with what you see written there)
13:43:13 <ais523> it seems incredibly unlikely to me that ESR forged the email, so I'm pretty sure that it's true
13:43:55 <b_jonas> can't you decide that by verifying that the Knuth reward cheque you get is authentic or something?
13:44:17 <ais523> the reward check is for finding mistakes in TAOCP, I think
13:44:24 <ais523> not for updating INTERCAL impls
13:44:32 <b_jonas> ais523: and other books and programs etc, but yeah
13:44:41 <b_jonas> oh, it's a bugfix in your program
13:44:46 <b_jonas> then yes, there'd be no check
13:44:59 <b_jonas> if it was a new feature he requested then there might be (of course he's under no obligation)
13:45:09 <ais523> the version ESR had at the time was very old, the bug may well have been fixed independently since then (I don't know what the specific bug was)
13:45:26 <mroman_> Who pays the refunds when Knuth has died?
13:45:42 <b_jonas> mroman_: that won't be your biggest problem
13:45:56 <ais523> the funny thing is that this probably sets a new record for "famous companies/people asking me for help with INTERCAL"; my previous record was maintaining CADIE for Google
13:46:03 <b_jonas> someone will step up if he hasn't named a heir, anyway
13:46:27 <ais523> which reminds me, could someone with a Github account export https://code.google.com/p/cadie/ >
13:46:42 <b_jonas> mroman_: if Knuth dies before you, your problem will be who finishes his books
13:47:02 <ais523> mroman_: google code is shutting down, someone needs to do an export to preserve the projects on it elsewhere
13:47:06 <ais523> I'm not sure what the process is like
13:47:25 <ais523> anyway: https://code.google.com/p/cadie/people/list : the only people who commit to CADIE are me and CADIE herself
13:47:29 <b_jonas> ais523: is there anything besides the git repository that has to be preserved?
13:47:33 <mroman_> I'm exporting it right now
13:47:58 <ais523> although luckily she can take care of herself mostly
13:48:06 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so, the style guide's in the repo
13:48:10 <mroman_> https://github.com/FMNSSun/cadie
13:48:14 <ais523> it went up, then went down again, but then went back up in the repo
13:48:32 <ais523> anyway, CADIE was a teenager (or acting like one) back in 2009, she's grown up somewhat since
13:48:41 <ais523> if you're a teenager in March 2009, you're an adult in May 22
13:49:32 <ais523> it's an april fools joke
13:49:40 <ais523> so yes, just two files
13:49:48 <ais523> basically because nobody wanted to write anything large in INTERCAL
13:49:57 <ais523> for all I know it was generated with yapp
13:50:23 <ais523> yeah, that looks a lot like yapp output actually in retrospect
13:50:31 <ais523> so the only actual INTERCAL programming involved was done by me
13:51:09 <ais523> yapp has much better compression
13:53:26 <b_jonas> ais523: have you read http://www.madore.org/~david/weblog/d.2015-03-20.2284.html ?
13:53:39 <ais523> possibly, I recognise the author at least
13:53:40 <ais523> let me look at the page
13:53:46 <ais523> ah no, I haven't read it
13:57:03 <b_jonas> can parts of it be from yapp "linked" with hand-written parts?
13:58:29 <mroman_> People not considering learning Esperanto are suckers :p
13:59:05 <ais523> b_jonas: I don't think so, I compared it to yapp output, it's different enough that it would need a total rewrite
13:59:51 <ais523> it's much more like convickt output – almost visually identical – except that convickt can't actually generate that sort of program
14:00:09 <ais523> and if someone had extended it to do that, I'd have hoped they'd have contributed the patch back again :-(
14:00:24 <b_jonas> ok, then how about a convickt output "linked' together with something handwritten?
14:00:29 <ais523> mroman_: what about Lojban? there's at least one casual Lojban speaker here (tswett)
14:00:41 <mroman_> also eo.wikipedia has way more articles than most real languages have
14:00:42 <ais523> b_jonas: the problem is that convickt output produces the wrong numbers
14:00:53 <ais523> you'd need to do a running sum on them, or possibly a running difference
14:01:56 <b_jonas> but mostly I'm infuriated with its crazy eso-grammar that I'm still trying to figure out how it can be modified consistently, because it's _so_ much not LR(1) a grammar and some some crazy custom preprocessing to become LR-parsable that it's not funny
14:02:27 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't know what convickt is or what program you're mentioning or anything, I'm just asking
14:02:37 <mroman_> ais523: Esperanto looks nicer
14:02:42 <mroman_> and probably has more speakers
14:02:42 <ais523> b_jonas: convickt converts between character sets
14:02:52 <ais523> it's basically an INTERCAL-specific version of iconv
14:03:17 <b_jonas> but probably that's what I should expect from intercal stuff, yeah
14:04:01 <mroman_> That's more than twice those greek folks have
14:04:45 <b_jonas> wait, you don't mean "pages" in the sheet of paper of text sense?
14:05:27 <ais523> presumably in the software sense
14:05:44 <mroman_> b_jonas: wikipedia articles
14:05:47 <ais523> the number of legal "title=" parameters
14:07:09 <ais523> err, that don't give you redlinks
14:07:21 <ais523> otherwise it's 255^256
14:08:00 <b_jonas> I was wondering if it somehow meant pages in the sense of learner or something
14:08:15 <b_jonas> ais523: no way, there's way more legal title parameters because there's some normalization rules
14:08:30 <b_jonas> like, whitespace stripped from the end already gives tons
14:08:51 <b_jonas> ah right, mroman_ did mention wikipedia indeed
14:10:27 <mroman_> ais523: You could learn Tok Pisin .
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14:11:54 <mroman_> and it's probably easier than esperanto
14:12:00 <mroman_> since it only has a few hundred words
14:12:30 <mroman_> What I don't understand is wikipedia in regional dialects
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14:12:35 <mroman_> I mean sure.. I like swiss german
14:12:45 <mroman_> but there's no point in maintaining a seperate wikipedia
14:13:11 <mroman_> it's too much effort for what it offers
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14:14:10 <b_jonas> mroman_: you only have to maintain the one in the one true language everyone should use
14:14:25 <b_jonas> everyone agrees in that, they just don't agree which language that is
14:14:30 <mroman_> b_jonas: Well that's why I'm learning Esperanto
14:14:34 <ais523> b_jonas: I'm having fun guessing which language you think that is, but I suspect you aren't thinking of one in particualr
14:14:58 <mroman_> obviously the third world war will be about languages
14:15:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I'm not thinking of one in particular, because I'm lucky, I'm not one of those people who have to decide whether serbo-croatian is one, two, three, four, or five different languages, and follow which of the seven language codes for it map to which subsets of the five different ones.
14:15:35 <mroman_> either the third or the fourth
14:16:02 <b_jonas> ais523: there's actually a separate serbo-croatial language wikipedia
14:16:16 <b_jonas> for those who think it's one language
14:16:42 <mroman_> but I'd teach them Esperanto
14:17:28 <mroman_> although Esperanto lacks on official pronunciation I think
14:18:11 <mroman_> I hate "al la" combinations in Esperanto
14:18:33 <mroman_> all natural languages will eventually invent short forms for those.
14:22:46 <mroman_> b_jonas: you mean everbody agrees except those native english folks
14:23:02 <mroman_> I thought those were the only ones not wanting to learn a new language
14:23:25 <mroman_> because their children are already overwhelmed with learning all those subjects and can't be bothered with more stuff
14:23:37 <mroman_> where we bother our children with TWO foreign languages
14:24:07 <mroman_> although 95% of those at age of 24 will have unlearnt one of those foreign languages because nobody uses it
14:24:32 <mroman_> Everybody knows it's a useless thing but due to political reasons they have to learn it
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14:24:45 <mroman_> It's like one of those scenarios where you marry a princess of another country to maintain peace
14:25:12 <mroman_> we maintain peace between our countries region by promising to learn each others language in school and then forget them after school
14:25:59 <ais523> mroman_: are you Swiss, then? I have an unfortunate habit of failing to guess that people are Swiss on IRC
14:26:03 <b_jonas> mroman_: no. the native English folks do want that everyone use their one true form of language, and everything else is a travesty, and think that there's no such thing as international english, and that even if the whole world is using english they have no right to prescribe what english is supposed to be like, and that only they, the speakers of the one true language, determine it,
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14:26:17 <b_jonas> but they haven't so far tried to suggest that English is more than one languages afaik.
14:26:44 <ais523> b_jonas: I've been known to give non-native-English speakers advice on the differences between US and UK English
14:26:45 <mroman_> ais523: Switzerland is the one country where you can't study chemistry without being good enough in French.
14:27:11 <ais523> mroman_: ever since IUPAC got involved, I thought most names of chemicals were basically identical in all languages?
14:27:22 <mroman_> It's like: So.. you have a 5 in chemistry, a 5 in math and a 4.5 in physics but a 2 in french? YOU CAN NOT STUDY ANYTHING!
14:27:34 <b_jonas> ais523: I don't much follow those differences, and write a crazy mixture with "color" and "behaviour" mostly (though I try to train myself to type "behavior" these days)
14:28:09 <mroman_> ais523: To be able to attend universities you need to pass exams in French ;)
14:28:22 <b_jonas> mroman_: do people have to learn both hochdeutch and swiss german?
14:28:25 <ais523> I know at the University I work at, you need to prove you can understand English well enough to understand the lectures
14:28:34 <ais523> the normal method is via a prior exam in English, but there are other ways
14:28:43 <mroman_> b_jonas: swiss german is what we speak in the swiss german part of switzerland.
14:28:51 <ais523> up to "taking a year of remedial English before starting the course" if you really want to study but don't know the language (you have to pay for it, though)
14:28:56 <mroman_> Hochdeutsch is what we learn in school.
14:29:03 <mroman_> besides French and Englisch.
14:29:34 <fizzie> I don't know what to write in emails at work, because I'm in UK, but I'm in no way British.
14:29:34 <mroman_> ais523: French is part of "general education"
14:29:50 <b_jonas> mroman_: yes, but I mean do people have to learn to speak both, and how difficult overhead is that over knowing just one?
14:30:04 <ais523> fizzie: people don't care much; I know my habit is to avoid salutations and valedictions, and use a very short custom sig
14:30:12 <mroman_> If you suck at French there's no way you can study anything.
14:30:30 <mroman_> Even if you are brilliant in math and those subjects
14:30:42 <ais523> hmm, I wonder how it compares to, say, English versus Scots (not Scottish Gaelic)
14:30:48 <ais523> it's similar enough to English that it's mostly intelligible
14:30:52 <Taneb> fizzie, write whatever you are most comfortable with, I guess
14:31:03 <mroman_> swiss german isn't a language
14:31:07 <ais523> but the words are spelled and pronounced differently and you get the occasional word that's completely different
14:31:17 <Taneb> ais523, I was under the impression that English vs Scots is like Norwegian vs Danish
14:31:35 <mroman_> If you live here you are expected to be able to at least understand swiss german
14:31:56 <ais523> Taneb: that's believable I guess? mostly because I don't know either Norwegian or Danish
14:31:57 <mroman_> I.e. if you're german and move to switzerland you should be able to understand swiss german
14:32:08 <mroman_> but that's just a "cultural requirement"
14:32:13 <ais523> thus it isn't a very high bar to get me to consider things about them to not be obviously false
14:32:15 <Taneb> As in, mutually intelligible if they both talk slowly and clearly
14:32:31 <Taneb> And not immediately clear where the border between the languages is
14:32:35 <mroman_> swiss german isn't part of school or anything
14:33:32 <mroman_> if you're a hungarian and move to switzerland
14:33:38 <mroman_> yes, you should learn swiss german and german
14:33:58 <b_jonas> Taneb: yeah, as in you can understand adults who know how to speak in a way you understand, but you don't understand children
14:34:05 <mroman_> but you only really need to learn german (for official matters)
14:34:30 <b_jonas> and I think there's even some assymetry between Swedish and Danish where the words in one is easier to guess from the words in the other than backwards
14:34:43 <mroman_> but since german is only a written language in switzerland you eventually should be able to use swiss german as well
14:35:23 <b_jonas> mroman_: but even then that means that native swiss german people living there learn both, doesn't it?
14:35:47 <mroman_> swiss german is what you learn as a baby from your mother/father etc.
14:35:54 <mroman_> and german is what they'll teach you in school.
14:36:13 <Taneb> So, it's a local non-standard dialect?
14:36:27 <b_jonas> so what I'm asking is, how different are those? how difficult is it to learn both as opposed to learning just one.
14:36:40 <Taneb> A bit like geordie, say?
14:37:00 <b_jonas> that doesn't help me, sorry.
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14:37:05 <mroman_> That depends on what swiss german dialect exactly
14:37:14 <mroman_> there are some minor grammatical differences, pronunciation differences
14:37:18 <mroman_> and vocabulary differences
14:37:24 <mroman_> but all in all they are very alike
14:37:54 <mroman_> Isch habb's'm schunn vazehld, awwa där hod ma's nid geglawd
14:38:04 <b_jonas> is it sort of like with Austrian english (where they pronounce zwei as "zwo")? or more different?
14:38:04 <mroman_> Ich habe es ihm schon erzählt, aber er hat es mir nicht geglaubt
14:38:17 <mroman_> I has em scho verzehlt, aber är häts mer nöd glaubt.
14:38:37 <ais523> b_jonas: I was under the impression that "zwo" was an invented word to not be confused with "drei" over the phone
14:38:43 <ais523> sort-of like "niner" in English
14:39:00 <b_jonas> ais523: maybe it's that too, but I think Austrian German consistently pronounes it like that usually
14:39:20 <ais523> perhaps it caught on unexpectedly well
14:39:35 <b_jonas> They use “kettő” and “hetes” for that purpose here sometimes, though “kettő” is a pre-existing word and is used for other things too.
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14:40:14 <b_jonas> could you really confuse "zwei" with "drei"?
14:40:25 <mroman_> "zwei", "zwo", "zwee", "zwyy"
14:40:29 <ais523> they're pretty similar over a noisy connection
14:41:05 <b_jonas> afterall, “két” and “hét” aren't confused only with each other, but even with “négy”
14:41:05 <mroman_> swiss german mostly lacks genitive case
14:41:16 <mroman_> although some swiss german dialects have a genitive case
14:41:25 <b_jonas> you must be careful with numbers
14:41:54 <b_jonas> fingers can help when you're not in telephone
14:42:00 <ais523> b_jonas: because the é is all you can really hear?
14:43:13 <mroman_> b_jonas: but to answer the question: The biggest difference is pronunciation
14:43:20 <mroman_> which is slightly different for every dialect
14:43:43 <mroman_> some sei "haben", others say "ham" others say "händ" others say "hend"
14:43:56 <mroman_> others say "habn" dropping the e
14:44:49 <mroman_> every dialect has it's own vocabulary though
14:45:13 <mroman_> like uhm lift <-> elevator in english
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14:46:06 <ais523> mroman_: that's UK english vs. US englsih
14:46:26 <b_jonas> "lift" and "elevator" isn't even close to the craziest
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14:46:40 <mroman_> http://www.forums9.ch/sprachen/Rosetta.htm
14:46:56 <ais523> there's the words which are valid in both languages with different meanings, but similar enough to be confused without a lot of additional context
14:47:00 <ais523> "petrol" is a good one
14:47:15 <ais523> US:petrol = UK:paraffin, UK:petrol=US:gasoline
14:47:31 <ais523> but paraffin and gasoline are sufficiently similar that if the context isn't just right, you can be confused for many sentences
14:47:47 <mroman_> some swiss german dialects are to german what scottish is to southern texas accents
14:48:07 <ais523> i.e. completely different?
14:48:07 <mroman_> same language, different pronunciation, some vocabulary differences
14:48:39 <mroman_> ais523: to a foreigner probably yes
14:49:24 <mroman_> Without prior knowledge you wouldn't know that swiss german and german are the same languages
14:49:26 <Gregor> <ais523> but paraffin and gasoline are sufficiently similar that if the context isn't just right, you can be confused for many sentences // I have NEVER heard anyone say "petrol" when they mean paraffin.
14:49:58 <ais523> you hear "gasoline" occasionally in the UK, too (although "petrol" is still more common)
14:50:15 <ais523> maybe people are trending towards less ambiguous words over time
14:50:39 <ais523> b_jonas: "gas pedal" is heard of in the UK, and generally using it as a metaphor for speed/acceleration
14:50:53 <Gregor> Muahaha American imperialism
14:51:12 <ais523> "gas" for the actual volatile liquid, not really
14:51:16 <mroman_> meaning they have a limes of some sort
14:51:27 <ais523> mroman_: limes as in the esolang logo?
14:52:02 <mroman_> We say "limes" for the lim x -> foo stuff
14:53:52 <Gregor> LimeSTONE is, I don't think "lime" is used inyeah
14:54:04 <ais523> there's also a chemical called lime
14:54:09 <ais523> which is pretty different from limestone
14:54:11 <mroman_> a lime lime was laying on lime lime.
14:54:25 <ais523> I think the colour is named after the fruit
14:54:27 <Gregor> And of course the color came from the fruit, like orange.
14:54:38 <mroman_> there's a tree called lime
14:54:49 <mroman_> a lime lime was laying on lime lime under a lime.
14:54:52 <Gregor> No, it's called a lime tree.
14:55:15 <mroman_> except that limes don't grow on lime trees
14:55:48 <ais523> (this is not something I'd expect most non-native speakers to know/guess, but it's true)
14:55:48 <mroman_> leo.org says "lime" - Linde
14:56:01 <mroman_> but limes (Limetten) don't grow on lime (Linde)
14:56:21 <Gregor> Although I know lime trees aren't trees that grow lime because UK logic, I didn't think anyone called the trees just "lime"
14:56:28 <b_jonas> what the heck are lime tree?
14:56:33 <ais523> right, people always call them "lime trees"
14:56:49 <ais523> they're famous for being eaten by aphids, who then excrete a sticky substance
14:56:59 <ais523> meaning that it's considered a bad idea to park under one because it takes ages to clean your car afterwards
14:57:07 <b_jonas> who invents these stupid words
14:57:16 <ais523> people who don't realise they're already used
14:57:26 <mroman_> "to smear with a sticky substance"
14:57:49 <ais523> that's probably related to what happens if you park under a lime tree
14:57:58 <Gregor> Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo.
14:58:00 <mroman_> your car get's limed by a lime tree
14:58:59 <b_jonas> But then where do lime fruits grow? Supermarkets?
14:59:21 <b_jonas> I mean, I know they can't grow in Britain because the climate is wrong
14:59:43 <Gregor> From lime trees, but not lime trees.
15:00:10 <Gregor> I think people usually say the specific species of lime. Key lime trees, kaffir lime trees, etc.
15:01:05 <ais523> wait, key lime pies are made of key limes?
15:01:20 <Gregor> Unless they're a filthy lie.
15:01:41 <b_jonas> ais523: they're probably some sort of search trees with keys
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15:44:52 <Gregor> There's a species of lime called Kaffir limes.
15:44:59 <Gregor> I know the name from Thai food.
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15:52:29 <Phantom_Hoover> Gregor, i wonder if it actually is cognate with the south african slur
15:54:31 <quintopia> gregor: that buffalo sentence seems to be a tautology
15:55:15 <Gregor> quintopia: That particular formulation is tautological, yes.
15:57:26 <quintopia> only because of the last three buffalo
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15:59:46 <quintopia> if you have a 2-place function f, what do you call the 2-place "inverse" functions g and h such that g x f x y = y and h y f x y = x? is there a naming scheme that generalizes this to more arguments?
16:00:16 <ais523> "left inverse" and "right inverse" are the normal names I see; I don't know of a generalization of the naming scheme
16:00:54 <b_jonas> ais523: left inverse and right inverse are different I think
16:01:01 <b_jonas> are they used for this too?
16:01:24 <ais523> I think they might have exactly two meanings (with the other one being composition-related)
16:03:18 <Phantom_Hoover> quintopia, well if f is curried the former is just the inverse of f x
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16:45:37 <tswett> quintopia: do you mean g x (f x y) and h y (f x y)?
16:46:23 <tswett> I'd call them the "left inverse with respect to the first argument" and the "left inverse with respect to the second argument".
16:47:15 <tswett> "Left inverse" because you never specified that f x (g x y) = y and f (h y x) y = x.
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17:09:09 <oren> `run echo 'X=0 X(1=1 X(1_X _pX' | scrip7
17:09:09 <HackEgo> -1056589062271330492704679569833033213037694652072243044255921418053347805113449718948834511775314375789348789986514257357764695119005371074501077956925879153816773367998010168337463035352852882106048465816422376808296056585503123477676793797534072952979077161795475996672.000000 \ bash: line 1: 293 Done echo 'X=0 X(1=1 X(1_X
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17:09:54 <oren> `run echo 'X=0 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pX' | scrip7
17:09:57 <b_jonas> oren: I think he's printf "%f"-ing a large number
17:10:04 <oren> `run echo 'X=0 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pY' | scrip7
17:10:17 <b_jonas> `perl -eprintf"%f",sqrt(10)*1e90
17:10:22 <HackEgo> 3162277660168380149484908708480656937183007146037772679597241557288343883945532816210526208.000000
17:10:48 <oren> Yeah but the code wasn't supposed to give a large number
17:11:05 <oren> It was supposed to give infinity
17:11:18 <b_jonas> `` <<<'X=0 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pY' scrip7 # we have a proper bash here, don't we?
17:11:47 <oren> `run echo 'X=-1 Y>1 Y=1 Y_X _pY' | scrip7
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17:12:27 <oren> the operator does multiply by the log, even though I don't remember making it do that
17:13:02 <b_jonas> is there an easy way to printf %g though?
17:13:18 <oren> I think the x operator
17:13:25 <b_jonas> wait, what do all those underscores even mean? underscore isn't even a variable, is it?
17:13:51 <oren> underscore, as a variable, is a null var which is always zero and does nothing when written to
17:14:02 <tswett> https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/ - neural nets which are capable of generating random Wikipedia text.
17:14:03 <b_jonas> but in Y_X it's a command?
17:14:04 <oren> underscore as a operator, is log
17:14:09 <tswett> http://cs.stanford.edu/people/karpathy/char-rnn/wiki.txt - the generated text.
17:14:29 <tswett> "Naturalism and decision for the majority of Arab countries' capitalide was grounded by the Irish language by [[John Clair]], [[An Imperial Japanese Revolt]], associated with Guangzham's sovereignty."
17:14:38 <tswett> "'''See also''': [[List of ethical consent processing]]"
17:15:43 <tswett> It also generates random Linux source code.
17:16:29 <tswett> The syntax is almost always correct, as is the indentation. Variable names are almost never correct.
17:16:57 <tswett> The code is, of course, commented.
17:17:49 <tswett> /* Various new destinations in associate data */
17:18:17 <tswett> void arizona_set_at86rfb(struct arizona_hw *ah, u8 *period);
17:18:39 <tswett> /* note: skb_info struct templates have extra read buffers */
17:19:30 <tswett> /* Software socket driver stuff */
17:20:42 <ais523> to be fair, humans don't do a good job of producing working source code by looking at examples they don't understand either
17:21:42 <oerjan> <ais523> I still don't really understand it <-- i thought i'd explained it on the talk page?
17:21:47 <tswett> It occasionally generates a random address for the Free Software Foundation.
17:22:07 <tswett> "You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License along with this program; if not, write to the Free Software Foundation, Inc., 59 Temple Place, Suite 330, Boston, MA 02111-1307 USA"
17:22:18 <ais523> oerjan: let me read that
17:22:44 <oerjan> hm possibly i just gave a hint, but it's important
17:22:48 <tswett> I guess that is, in fact, a real address that presumably appears in the Linux source code somewhere.
17:22:53 <tswett> It just isn't the address of the FSF.
17:23:00 <ais523> oerjan: keymaker posted a stack trace but it doesn't help much
17:23:05 <ais523> tswett: it looks like a real address
17:23:34 <oerjan> ais523: the thing is that the whole is really constructed from that fragment i pointed out
17:23:52 <ais523> I might have another try later
17:24:18 <oerjan> ^ul (Y)aa((!(X)))*:*^!**^SS
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17:41:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43022&oldid=37706 * Ais523 * (+710) /* Why the reserved characters? */ some info about Overload
17:41:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43023&oldid=43022 * Ais523 * (+116) fix formatting
17:44:21 <quintopia> tswett: that's kind of what i had been saying, but it seems so wordy
17:45:17 <pikhq> tswett: Whose is it then?
17:46:45 <tswett> Ah, I lied. That is a correct address for the FSF.
17:47:09 <pikhq> Actually, it is not the current correct address for the FSF.
17:47:24 <ais523> maybe we should have some other organization to write to if you don't have a copy of the GPL
17:47:28 <pikhq> I have no idea if mail to that address still reaches that location.
17:47:55 <pikhq> Erm, still reaches the FSF.
17:48:29 <zzo38> If it is wrong then they should update the program?
17:49:08 <b_jonas> ais523: these days they just include a http address in the standard short text
17:49:19 <ais523> zzo38: this is boilerplate that the FSF recommended including at the start of every GPL-licensed file
17:49:31 <ais523> they can't go and change everyone else's files to update the postal address
17:49:55 <b_jonas> but postal addresses can be chosen such that they work for a very long time in civilized countries
17:50:05 <ais523> I'm sort-of tempted to write to them to ask for a copy of the GPL just for fun
17:50:17 <b_jonas> you can use redirection, give the address of a university which rarely moves and the post will know its address even if it does move
17:50:53 <b_jonas> eg. you can probably contact me twenty years in the future in snail mail if you write to the university department. they'll probably have my contact even if I'm not working there.
17:51:08 <pikhq> ais523: You should also buy copy of GCC on tape.
17:51:24 <b_jonas> ais523: send a SASE to the ubuntu guys and ask for free stickers instead
17:51:47 <pikhq> *Aaaw*, they finally stopped that.
17:52:08 <b_jonas> stopped what? tape or stickers?
17:52:28 <pikhq> For a long time RMS did that to try and raise funds.
17:52:39 <pikhq> It was kinda hilarious circa 2000.
17:53:28 <b_jonas> buy gcc on floppies instead
17:53:44 <b_jonas> or a full linux distro on floppies rather
17:54:53 <zzo38> Presumably a kind of small distro that can fit on three floppy disks
17:55:34 <tswett> tomsrtbt fits on a small number of floppies.
17:57:24 <pikhq> It's kinda hard (though not impossible) to fit a modern Linux setup on floppies these days.
17:57:31 <pikhq> The kernel is likely to need its own disk.
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18:13:25 <oren> Apparently you can at least fit a bootloader on a floppy.
18:14:28 <oren> The question is, is it possible to bootload froma floppy and then download the kernel fromt eh internet
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18:15:26 <ais523> I'd be surprised if it were impossible to write a working Linux installer inside GRUB 2, without a separate kernel
18:15:47 <ais523> i.e. you get it to download and run the kernel from online, and that bootstraps the rest of the installer
18:16:25 <pikhq> No reason you couldn't. Boot over a network is a thing that is actually done.
18:16:51 <pikhq> Though usually with BOOTP and TFTP rather than (as you'd probably prefer here) DHCP and HTTP.
18:16:58 <b_jonas> ais523: why would you do that? you can just fit the kernel and a small initrd to the floppy
18:17:13 <b_jonas> it'd have to be smaller than usual, but it's possible
18:17:21 <ais523> b_jonas: to save room on the floppy
18:17:33 <ais523> you only have 720K to work with
18:17:54 <ais523> (also, double density floppies are the oldest for which hardware to read them is still reasonably available)
18:18:33 <pikhq> More bizarre thought: EFI libc. You could totally do that.
18:18:51 <b_jonas> if it had to be 720K, then I'd put MS-DOS and a small DOS program on that floppy, that program copied the files from that floppy and the next one to six floppies to hard disk or ramdisk,
18:19:03 <b_jonas> and then ran loadlin to boot it
18:19:16 <b_jonas> can loadlin load a kernel and initrd from ramdisk? I never tried
18:19:23 <b_jonas> it definitely works if you use a hard disk
18:19:40 <b_jonas> though then you need some reboots because you may have to make a partition on the hard disk first
18:20:11 <ais523> pikhq: I thought it had been done already
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18:20:22 <ais523> b_jonas: not "and the next one"
18:20:42 <b_jonas> ais523: oh, if it's just one 720K floppy then you're screwed
18:20:50 <pikhq> I don't see why it can't. It loads the kernel into RAM normally and only then shoves off DOS.
18:20:56 <b_jonas> I think even with two 720K floppies you're screwed
18:21:09 <pikhq> Huh, does the EFI toolkit have a halfway decent libc?
18:22:00 <b_jonas> the debian x86_64 tiny installer (which continues the install from network, loading most components of the installer from network actually) is actually 18 megabytes size these days
18:22:13 <b_jonas> of which 15 megabytes is the initrd and 3 megabytes is the kernel
18:22:47 <b_jonas> when I first heared that people have ran linux 1.* on machines with only 1 megabyte of ram, I didn't believe it
18:23:05 <b_jonas> at those days the common wisdom was that you need at least 2 megabytes of ram even for a minimal system
18:23:10 <b_jonas> these days it's more like 8 megabytes
18:23:45 <b_jonas> anyway, if you want to make it work on just most configurations, it might be possible from one floppy
18:23:59 <b_jonas> the installer is so large because it has to have drivers for unusual hardware too, especially for unusual network stuff
18:24:04 <pikhq> Totally *has* a libc, but it looks like crap.
18:24:23 <b_jonas> pikhq: libc always looks like crap. duh.
18:24:37 <b_jonas> "decent libc" is a contradiction
18:24:48 <b_jonas> libc has to do the dirty work, it must be ugly
18:25:08 <pikhq> "Decent" here would mean "implements as much of POSIX as is practical given the environment limitations"
18:25:15 <b_jonas> for reasons like compatibility and shared libraries and stuff like that
18:25:40 <pikhq> Also, writing a libc with not-crap code is a lot more reasonable than you'd think.
18:25:42 <b_jonas> but wouldn't that make it too large? you don't want a multi-megabyte sized efi bios, right?
18:26:01 <pikhq> Note that the libc would be linked into the binaries.
18:26:17 <pikhq> Also, a *full* POSIX libc is like 700k.
18:26:25 <pikhq> If it's not crap. :)
18:27:04 <b_jonas> yeah, but you need stuff other than the libc too
18:27:33 <b_jonas> oh, and the boot loader has to do work in like four different virtual cpu architectures and switch between them during the boot process, or maybe fewer for efi
18:27:48 <pikhq> (and the libc would not be provided by EFI, it's supposed to be linked into EFI binaries -- what EFI provides is basically a syscall layer.)
18:28:14 <b_jonas> yes, that makes more sense
18:28:21 <pikhq> (... and by "would be" I mean "is" -- there is a libc in the EFI dev kit. It's just not fully featured.)
18:30:02 <pikhq> Nothing preventing them from making it implement the subset of POSIX that isn't patently absurd to implement.
18:30:58 <oerjan> <ais523> this violates my mental model of substructual logics <-- the very first trick is the observation that (a)(b)*:* contains b followed by a inside it. the next step is getting rid of the surrounding junk.
18:31:51 <pikhq> (hint, fork() is probably patently absurd.)
18:32:13 <b_jonas> pikhq: but before you have a libc, you need like an execution environment (abi) and what the program is allowed to do
18:32:25 <b_jonas> and there's like four or more of those in a boot loader depending on what stage it is in
18:32:29 <b_jonas> and you'd need separate libc for each
18:32:43 <b_jonas> maybe it's a bit better with efi though
18:32:51 <pikhq> Um, I think you're not entirely understanding what EFI is like.
18:33:04 <b_jonas> not that I understand that either
18:33:13 <b_jonas> but know much more about it than about efi
18:33:25 <pikhq> EFI provides an x86 or x86_64 (depending on the system) execution environment with a syscall layer, filesystem, program loader, drivers, etc.
18:34:35 <pikhq> Yep. EFI boots and loads a program (well, one of a few possible programs) off of the EFI boot partition, which is a FAT filesystem.
18:35:27 <b_jonas> you can have limited read-only filesystem drivers in very small space actually
18:35:35 <b_jonas> I don't know how they do it
18:35:57 <b_jonas> supposedly it even does the filename hashing and b-tree search on modern filesystems, rather than just traversing the whole directory to find the filename
18:36:12 <b_jonas> I don't know if that's true but it's the rumour I heared about grub-l
18:36:21 <pikhq> It's a read-write FS implementation.
18:36:34 <b_jonas> yeah, on FAT that's possible
18:36:54 <b_jonas> on real filesystems I wouldn't dare to put it in a boot loader
18:37:07 <pikhq> Apple's implementation is somewhat more impressive -- it's HFS+.
18:37:24 <b_jonas> but I'm satisfied with using a separate boot partition that is required to be in the first two terrabyte of the disk or something
18:37:40 <pikhq> It isn't required to be in the first two terabytes.
18:37:58 <b_jonas> I mean for bios and bios boot loaders
18:38:01 <pikhq> Only if you're using an MBR partitioning scheme.
18:38:09 <pikhq> (EFI supports this)
18:38:23 <pikhq> (... you can also do BIOS boot with GPT partitions)
18:38:36 <b_jonas> because the bios doesn't touch the partitions
18:38:39 <b_jonas> it's the boot loader that doe
18:39:01 <b_jonas> for hard disks and floppy disks, the bios boot is very simple
18:39:07 <pikhq> Yeah, the BIOS's notion of the disk is "load 512 bytes".
18:39:25 <b_jonas> yes, it loads one sector of the boot loader to a fixed address in x86_16 real mode, and jumps to it
18:39:41 <b_jonas> and gives an interface to read or write sectors of the disk
18:39:49 <pikhq> After starting up the hardware to some extent and setting up some interrupts.
18:39:56 <b_jonas> for booting from cd/dvd and network it's much more complicated
18:40:30 <pikhq> Not for the bootloader. By the time you're in the bootloader the BIOS is faking the same interface.
18:40:31 <b_jonas> it gives an easy interface for the keyboard and the vga display and serial port, which is very useful for a boot loader
18:40:57 <pikhq> Though if you want to break out from the fake hard drive or floppy drive it's booting from (to, say, "load a kernel") you're in for a rough time. :)
18:41:17 <b_jonas> pikhq: no, I think booting from cd with bios actually has two modes, one is the floppy emulation that fakes the floppy, but the other actually loads more than one sector and doesn't emulate a floppy
18:41:40 <pikhq> The other is actually a hard drive emulation rather than a floppy emulation.
18:41:52 <zzo38> What you will really need is a true PC BIOS which is open-source and has a Forth environment built-in (and will execute even if there is no hard disk, external disk, network, or anything else other than the keyboard and monitor)
18:42:06 <b_jonas> I thought there was a mode where it loads the whole boot loader, multiple sectors of it, and lets it access the cd, though not in an easy way
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18:42:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: no, a forth environment wouldn't make it a true PC BIOS. it would have to be a BASIC environment.
18:42:44 <pikhq> Nope, still a boot sector, it just maps the CD as a hard drive. Apparently.
18:42:45 <b_jonas> called OpenROM-BASIC or some such
18:42:54 <zzo38> Yes, BASIC is how the PC originally did it.
18:43:37 <b_jonas> not the original BASIC that loads from casettes of course, but, say, a 32-bit one that lets you read sectors and fat file systems from hard disk and floppy disk
18:43:39 <zzo38> But as long as the BIOS function calls are proper, you could put Forth instead.
18:44:26 <b_jonas> I've written bootable grub cds but it's possible that that's what it does internally
18:44:48 <pikhq> b_jonas: There was also a 16 bit one that did that. It was called IIRC "ABASIC". Which used the ROM BASIC and patched it with extra stuff.
18:45:07 <zzo38> You can run Forth in unreal mode so that you can access the full memory and so on; the built-in BOOT command switches back to normal real mode
18:45:55 <pikhq> zzo38: You can also use 32-bit prefixes on the instructions and access full memory from normal real mode. :)
18:46:09 <b_jonas> hmm, let's put a doom in the bios
18:46:26 <b_jonas> you can use 32-bit prefixes, but that doesn't let you access full memory
18:46:26 <fizzie> b_jonas: Segment limits aren't reset when switching to 16-bit mode.
18:46:32 <b_jonas> you're limited to the first 1 megabyte
18:46:56 <fizzie> b_jonas: If you never load any values to the segment registers after switching back, you can keep using more than that; that's the "unreal mode".
18:47:12 <pikhq> b_jonas: Erm, right, yeah. Segments.
18:47:13 <b_jonas> fizzie: what? I though the cpu docs forbids that
18:47:36 <b_jonas> they do forbid some stuff, but I don't know about this in particular
18:47:46 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's presumably not an intended feature, at least. But it's a very well-known one.
18:47:52 <pikhq> I don't think it was supposed to be legal, but it was heavily used back in the day so it has to still work.
18:48:19 <fizzie> Also if you're running in dosbox, it doesn't enforce segment limits. :p
18:48:40 <b_jonas> people misusing the 386 that way...
18:49:14 <fizzie> http://wiki.osdev.org/Unreal_Mode has a bit more details than the wikipedia article.
18:49:27 <pikhq> This is x86. The A20 hack is still around. :)
18:50:30 <zzo38> The Forth environment can have other command too such as CMOS-WRITE to update CMOS settings and DISK-BOOT you can tell which disk to boot, and so on.
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19:01:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: well sure, it has to have special functions useful for a boot loader of course
19:04:24 <zzo38> You would only to need to use such command if the normal boot-sequence is interrupted though; otherwise it will just boot normally and don't load the Forth environment.
19:07:43 <b_jonas> sure, but it needs them so you can actually use it as a recovery console when something goes wrong, as opposed to just as a calculator
19:07:57 <zzo38> Yes, that is what I meant!
19:08:16 <zzo38> You can use it as a recovery console.
19:10:18 <b_jonas> mind you, I think these days grub2 is starting to look like a whole operating system, you can use it as a recovery console too
19:10:30 <b_jonas> they're putting everything in it
19:11:12 <b_jonas> will they, like, run Doom straight from the boot loader?
19:11:39 <b_jonas> I started to hate this stuff when people started to put graphical splash screens in boot loaders
19:11:45 <b_jonas> seriously, graphical splash screens
19:12:01 <b_jonas> also in the early linux kernel
19:12:42 <zzo38> I don't like that either
19:12:46 <ais523> b_jonas: the penguin in the linux kernel is actually amazingly useful for debugging
19:13:05 <ais523> apparently when porting Linux to a new hardware, a static bitmap like that is much /easier/ to display than text
19:13:12 <ais523> so the first thing that people normally get working is the penguin
19:13:18 <b_jonas> ais523: yeah, on other architectures maybe
19:13:33 <b_jonas> mind you, the kernel also has a static bitmap font in it
19:14:07 <zzo38> It shouldn't need a static bitmap font on PC; on non-PC computers though it can be compiled in the PC font
19:14:14 <ais523> yes but you still have to do font rendering
19:14:22 <b_jonas> anyway, on pc, the bios gets the vga console working very early, and it has a very easy interface even if you access the vga memory directly rather than through the bios
19:14:30 <zzo38> You should use the PC character set.
19:14:31 <ais523> also, people don't normally struggle to port Linux to x86 nowadays
19:14:35 <ais523> it has a very good x86 port already
19:14:48 <b_jonas> if you switch to graphics mode, you have to handle the font rendering
19:14:55 <b_jonas> the bios can do that, but only in real mode
19:15:59 <b_jonas> but no, people want fancy graphical splash screens in the vga card, then in the bios, then in the boot loader, then in the early kernel, then in the initrd, then in early x11, then in the login procedure
19:16:10 <ais523> it's because people get scared by tesxt
19:16:13 <b_jonas> then when you start the program or something
19:16:26 <b_jonas> it's like eight different splash screens, each implemented differently
19:16:30 <ais523> although Plymouth at least (between initrd and x11 IIRC) just disappears if you press esc
19:16:44 <zzo38> I would like it never switch to graphics mode until X starts...
19:17:17 <b_jonas> (oh, and there may be a monitor splash screen too in modern tft monitors)
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19:17:59 <zzo38> My opinion is monitor spash screen should not be displayed unless there is no other picture available to display
19:18:25 <b_jonas> I for one have only the vga card and bios splash screens on my computer, and I think those are in text mode.
19:18:27 <zzo38> But if there is no other picture then it should display its own splash screen for perhaps one second, you can see how it can display a picture at least.
19:18:33 <b_jonas> I don't have any of the others enabled.
19:19:47 <b_jonas> zzo38: yes, and the on-screen menus should tell what the allowed hsync and vrefresh ranges and resolution are for vga signal, rather than just a no-information error message about invalid signal
19:20:10 <b_jonas> that would be trivial, but no
19:20:12 <zzo38> Yes, that too; I agree that too very much.
19:20:21 <b_jonas> it's not anywhere in the monitor's documentation or anything
19:20:23 <zzo38> The on screen menus ought to still work if there is no signal!
19:20:31 <b_jonas> it used to be stamped on the back of the screen, but it's not on the label these days
19:20:31 <zzo38> And to tell you such information if it is available.
19:20:42 <b_jonas> even if the menus work, they never tell that information
19:21:02 <b_jonas> I can get the menus to work because, like, standard vga modes should work, right?
19:21:11 <b_jonas> but the menus don't tell any of this useful stuff
19:22:00 <zzo38> After displaying the splash screen though it should enter power-saving mode, until either there is a signal or you push some of the other buttons on the monitor. If there is a signal it can display it should bypass the splash screen if possible (if the input is HDMI then maybe it takes some time anyways; I don't quite know)
19:22:25 <b_jonas> you have to search the internet, and even there such info is usually hard to find, or just test what works, because at least these days you can't destroy the hardware so easily by giving invalid video signal
19:22:29 <zzo38> I think it should still be written physically on the back of the monitor too though, in case it is not plugged in.
19:22:53 <b_jonas> but I'm saying the menus should display it because that wouldn't even cost them anything
19:22:57 <oren> Puppy linux is relatively devoid of splash screens
19:23:14 <b_jonas> they know the ranges (the nominal ranges at least, obviously the actual range might be very slightly larger) and resolution
19:23:24 <b_jonas> and they have lots of long text compared to this in menus
19:23:30 <b_jonas> localized to ten languages too
19:24:33 <zzo38> Yes I agree the menu should still display if the monitor is turned on regardless if a input signal is available or not.
19:24:59 <b_jonas> eight splash screens… it's just crazy
19:26:31 <oren> I just rebooted puppy to count. First bios, then a blinking cursor of 1 second, then a picture of a puppy with text detailing the boot process, then more text, then desktop
19:26:59 <oren> not having a login screen helps
19:27:07 <fizzie> b_jonas: It's in the EDID data hth
19:27:16 <b_jonas> oren: by the way, sometimes you can't see the vga card splash screen because the tft monitor takes too long to start up
19:27:52 <oren> yeah that is probably what is happening
19:27:52 <b_jonas> it's less funny when you don't see the bios splash screen which tells you which key to press to access the setup because the monitor starts up that slow
19:28:11 <b_jonas> not all vga cards have a separate splash screen of course
19:28:23 <oren> I usually just spam the F keys
19:28:42 <b_jonas> oren: yes, the f keys, escape, del, insert, tab, and combinations with shift and control and alt
19:29:09 <oren> tab? really? hm..
19:29:09 <b_jonas> but you probably only get like 16 keys to try before the buffer fills up
19:29:32 <b_jonas> oren: I think tab isn't used for setup, but for suppressing the bios splash screen to get actual messages on text from the bios
19:29:43 <b_jonas> but even that could be useful if that screen says "press f1 for bios" or something
19:30:16 <b_jonas> too late to suppress the splash screen by the time it's read
19:35:08 <fizzie> http://sprunge.us/aaiF Okay, you still need to actually get it *out* of the EDID. (FWIW, it's decoded properly in Xorg log. I blame nvidia.)
19:38:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: wow, that line has very few words
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19:38:11 <b_jonas> like, it's all abbreviations and technical stuff
19:39:33 <b_jonas> yes, it's supposedly there
19:40:15 <b_jonas> also, these days I insist on using DVI instead of VGA connection, and computers have enough resources that I run X11 all the time, no text console stuff, so all of that is getting less relevant
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19:41:16 <oren> I run X and then run a terminal und4er X and aften nothing else
19:42:10 <b_jonas> back in the old days that could cause problems because it tied up some significant memory and cpu
19:42:32 <b_jonas> these days it's somewhat less (though it still ties up 1/10 of the memory bandwidth on this old machine)
19:43:06 <b_jonas> computers get faster and faster very quickly
19:43:49 <oren> this machine is 9 years old...
19:44:11 <b_jonas> I'm not sure how old exactly this is
19:44:12 <oren> but that means like, 2006. so not even that old
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19:44:58 <fizzie> I gave up not running X when I switched away from Matrox graphics cards.
19:45:06 <oren> hmm... switching to the console and then running the terminal on that works fairly well
19:45:41 <oren> the terminal...I means GNU screen not the terminal
19:46:03 <b_jonas> it works more than fine on this machine too. it's worked already on the two previous computers before this.
19:46:34 <b_jonas> I'm not sure about the PII one that was two before this
19:46:41 <b_jonas> but definitely fine on the P4 system before this
19:47:02 <b_jonas> I really like this system though
19:47:13 <b_jonas> I'll have to reinstall the software
19:47:37 <zzo38> I think Digi-RGB is better than DVI and HDMI and VGA and so on. A Digi-RGB monitor ought to take two frames to start up (because the screen resolution won't be known until one entire frame has passed; it won't know where to start drawing either until one entire frame has passed).
19:48:01 <fizzie> Had at least a Mystique 220 and a G450, and they both were very good. mplayer had a 'mga' output driver that didn't need X.
19:48:31 <zzo38> Some graphical programs can run even without X
19:49:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, it's not really just the frames that limit the startup
19:49:35 <b_jonas> I think it's mostly the electronics in the monitor, like powering up the backlight
19:50:07 <zzo38> Maybe it can power up the backlight independently though?
19:50:44 <b_jonas> it can't just keep the backlight powered up at all time because that would waste energy. it has to start that when it notices there's video signal as you turn on the machine.
19:51:08 <b_jonas> it might be other stuff it has to do too, I don't know electronics
19:51:18 <b_jonas> what's this Digi-RGB stuff?
19:51:22 <oren> like have a backlight switch that is on the side, independent of everything
19:51:23 <zzo38> I mean independently from the displaying signal; I don't mean it would keep the backlight on all the time!
19:51:42 <zzo38> oren: Although maybe that might work too
19:53:03 <zzo38> b_jonas: The electrical specification is not written yet, but the rest is like this: All signals go from the computer to the display; only one direction. Signals are 4x red, 4x green, 4x blue, clock, sync, power, ground. You have two clock cycles per pixel, and sync is between frames. Aspect ratio must be eiter 4:3 or 16:9.
19:53:30 <zzo38> That's how it works.
19:53:33 <b_jonas> I don't really know which of the modern digital formats (DVI and HDMI and there's like two more I think) is better, I'm just claiming I want to use a digital video signal format rather than VGA (or other analog formats)
19:54:11 <zzo38> There is no limit to screen resolution or clock rate, although a minimum "base case" should be specified
19:54:17 <b_jonas> zzo38: oh, that seems a bit limited
19:54:35 <b_jonas> for one, I have a 16:10 monitor
19:55:04 <b_jonas> also, even if most use cases don't need it, sometimes it does make sense to have more than 8 bit depth per color component
19:55:26 <oren> 16:10 is good because then you can display a movie, with the player interface in the smallextra space
19:55:40 <fizzie> HDMI equals DVI + stuff (- other stuff), AIUI.
19:55:49 <b_jonas> it's just that most people use 16:9 because that's what the cheap monitors do
19:55:50 <zzo38> I don't want to complicate it
19:55:58 <b_jonas> there's also a lot of 5:4 monitors
19:56:04 <fizzie> Okay, that description covers everything. But still.
19:56:27 <b_jonas> fizzie: in particular, hdmi can transmit sound in the same wire, dvi can't
19:57:07 <fizzie> For the basic part of transferring an image, they're supposedly identical. Which is why you can get passive adapters for the conversion.
19:57:10 <b_jonas> also dvi has pins for analog signal so you can have a passive dvi-vga converter or something like that
19:57:17 <zzo38> oren: Yes I suppose that is true if you want to display the timecode and track number while the movie is playing perhaps, but usually I just don't need this.
19:57:46 <b_jonas> fizzie: no, I think you get passive adapters because the hdmi monitors and cards specifically have support for the converters
19:57:54 <zzo38> Digi-RGB-Plus can transmit analog stereo sound on the same cable as digital video; Digi-RGB doesn't though. It is designed though that a passive cable can convert between them with no compatibility issues.
19:57:56 <b_jonas> it's like the ps2 to usb converters for mous
19:58:10 <b_jonas> which works because the mouse has built-in support for usb and ps2 or something
19:58:19 <fizzie> "DVI and HDMI have the same electrical specifications for their TMDS and VESA/DDC links."
19:58:23 <b_jonas> support both, just one plug for physical reasons
19:59:09 <b_jonas> then there's I think some, uh, mini-hdmi with a smaller plug, just not called that, and some other similar digital format
19:59:19 <b_jonas> and dvi is actually more than one formats too
19:59:27 <zzo38> I have a computer monitor connected to a VCR/DVD combo, you can connect the HDMI out of the VCR to the DVI in of the monitor but then there is no sound. However, the speakers can be connected to the other audio out on the VCR and then the sound will work too.
19:59:31 <pikhq> Basically, HDMI is specifically designed to have its on-wire protocol an extension of DVI.
19:59:32 <fizzie> Yes, it's all very complicated.
20:00:17 <pikhq> It's not a matter of the monitors and cards having explicit support but rather that HDMI itself is inherently DVI-compatible.
20:00:39 <b_jonas> pikhq: but how is that possible? doesn't HDMI have too few pins in the connector for that?
20:01:06 <fizzie> It does drop the analog parts.
20:01:24 <b_jonas> maybe dvi doesn't actually use that many pins
20:01:36 <b_jonas> maybe it's like the two rs232 serial port connectors
20:01:42 <b_jonas> that seems riddiculous too
20:01:57 <pikhq> DVI has 24 pins, but some of them are not at all necessary.
20:01:58 <fizzie> For that matter, I think one of my outputs in the current graphics cards is DVI-D-only.
20:01:59 <b_jonas> they're exactly the same, the long one just has some unused or duplicated pins
20:02:46 <fizzie> 13w3 for all, I say -- it looks the funniest.
20:03:05 <pikhq> DVI has 5 TMDS lines while HDMI has 2, but DVI doesn't require all 5 of those to work.
20:03:20 <zzo38> Digi-RGB-Plus is Digi-RGB + analog stereo sound + control signal. The specification requires that it will function properly even if one or the other device does not support the control signal. (Also, the control signal is the reverse direction from the other signals.)
20:03:45 <b_jonas> hehe, Digi-thigy actually has analog sound
20:04:04 <pikhq> (DVI single link I believe only requires 2 TMDS lines)
20:04:09 <b_jonas> they really master naming stuff
20:04:38 <b_jonas> strange, I thought DVI actually required a lot of pins
20:04:42 <b_jonas> maybe not all of them, but a lot
20:05:05 <pikhq> Yes, but those same pins are on HDMI as well.
20:05:26 <pikhq> HDMI *just* has the set of pins required for DVI it looks like.
20:05:32 <fizzie> MHL is that one thing that can share a port with micro-USB and be "HDMI-compatible" in a very weak sense -- in the way that the other end can share a HDMI port, but both ends need to specially support MHL.
20:05:42 <b_jonas> how many pins is that actually?
20:05:55 <pikhq> And does higher quality video by clocking the lines faster rather than adding more lines.
20:06:33 <fizzie> Then there's the DisplayPort side, and I think they had a "MHL-equivalent".
20:06:41 <b_jonas> oh by the way, I believe USB-3 also works in such a way that it's "compatible" with USB-2 because the USB-3 host actually has a full USB-2 host built in it
20:07:15 <b_jonas> and the connector of USB-3 has all the pins of USB-2 so you can plug in an USB-2 cable physically
20:07:22 <b_jonas> but it just handles USB-2 separately
20:07:30 <pikhq> Yes, USB-3 works entirely over separate wires with USB-2 (in USB-3 mode) used for some initial protocol setup.
20:07:58 <zzo38> My opinion is DisplayPort and HDMI is complicated and has some kind of more problem; I invented Digi-RGB and Digi-RGB-Plus to be better systems.
20:09:01 <pikhq> Huh, weird -- there's nothing useful even missing from DB-25 on DE-9. I figured it was just obscure stuff.
20:09:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok, but still, supporting only 16:9 and 4:3 is limited
20:09:03 <zzo38> You don't need to pay or register to use it, but, if you impleemnt it wrong and claim it is Digi-RGB then it is a trademark violation.
20:09:17 <b_jonas> it works for most projectors but not for some monitors
20:09:38 <fizzie> USB 3.1 type C cables can carry a MHL 3.0 or a DisplayPort 1.3 signal, to further muddle things.
20:10:01 <b_jonas> fizzie: what's the relation of USB* to ESATA?
20:10:13 <zzo38> b_jonas: One problem is if too many aspect ratios are possible then it might become difficult to figure out what the aspect ratio is from the signal.
20:10:44 <pikhq> b_jonas: Utterly unrelated, but some ports ("eSATAp") are built to accept both eSATA and USB connectors.
20:10:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: can't there be a dummy row between frames, with a sync signal before and after it, or something?
20:11:06 <b_jonas> I mean, if you don't want to pay for a hsync signal
20:11:27 <pikhq> It's just something that you can shove both types of connectors into and it'll work.
20:11:43 <pikhq> Or, slightly more usefully, you can have an eSATA device that draws power from that USB port too.
20:11:45 <b_jonas> probably a notebook thing then
20:11:55 <fizzie> b_jonas: You can also carry PCI Express over SATA ("SATA Express" or something like that).
20:11:55 <b_jonas> well, mind you, the whole idea of esata is probably a notebook thing
20:12:07 <b_jonas> because we desktop people have space in the desktop to install four hard disks
20:12:13 <b_jonas> notebook people can install only two
20:12:43 <b_jonas> that sucks, how can you use a notebook as your main computer when you can't have multiple hard disks for redundancy? that's something I never understood
20:12:51 <b_jonas> sure, they use usb external disks and stuff, but still
20:13:01 <pikhq> If you're feeling really fancy you can shove a port multiplier on there and run, like, all the hard drives.
20:13:08 <b_jonas> fizzie: what, that sounds crazy
20:13:13 <fizzie> They use the cloud for redundancy, too.
20:13:31 <oren> I use SD cards for backups
20:13:40 <b_jonas> pikhq: the problem is that you physically can't fit the hard disks inside the notebook chasis, not that there isn't enough port
20:14:12 <pikhq> It'd have to be a *big fucking laptop* to do more than two.
20:14:14 <fizzie> b_jonas: I think it's mainly so that SSD manufacturers can make single controllers for both PCIE and "SATA" SSDs without being limited to SATA.
20:14:36 <b_jonas> also, even those notebook hard disks have to be small size (one of three small sizes actually, with different but passive convertible connnectors), and I think small size 2 terabyte hard disks are significantly more expensive than large size
20:14:42 <pikhq> *My* solution is to use my laptop as an SSH terminal and web browser.
20:15:17 <b_jonas> and it's getting even crazier when people want to put an ssd in their notebook, because that takes up a hard disk slot
20:15:29 <b_jonas> pikhq: sure, that does work, what I don't understand is using them as a main machine
20:15:30 <fizzie> The "SATA Express" port looks like two side-by-side SATA ports, and I think they also generally work as regular SATA if you want.
20:15:50 <pikhq> b_jonas: A lot of people also don't bother with, y'know, redundancy on drives in general.
20:16:16 <b_jonas> they also don't want to upgrade parts of their machine too
20:16:24 <b_jonas> they just buy a whole new machine
20:16:44 <fizzie> That reminded me of http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/08/10
20:18:35 <zzo38> Can you explain how you would do such dummy row and those stuff?
20:19:03 <b_jonas> zzo38: well, if you had an extra hsync signal, you could send a hsync signal at the end of each row, right?
20:19:25 <b_jonas> you could probably do that in the digital signal too if you made one color value special, but that's not practical with 8 bit depth
20:19:43 <b_jonas> (I think analog encodes the hsync signal with some out of range value or something, I'm not sure)
20:20:15 <fizzie> ("They " also have a new thing called "NVMe" to replace AHCI as the logical interface. Basically, http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/SATA_Express#/media/File:SATA_Express_interface.svg
20:20:55 <b_jonas> if you don't want to do that, but you still have a vrefresh signal, you could do like this: vrefresh signal, first row, vrefresh signal, second row, third row, fourth row, ... 1200th row, start from beginning
20:21:15 <b_jonas> you decode that by checking three consecutive vsync signals,
20:21:52 <b_jonas> the distance of the first and third gives the full resolution (plus whatever overhead there is), the distance of the two vsync signals that are closer give the length of one row (plus possible overhead)
20:22:06 <b_jonas> (provided there's at least three rows)
20:22:21 <b_jonas> but I don't do electronics, so I don't know how practical that would actually be
20:22:23 <zzo38> Yes you could do that with a hsync signal and it is correct it won't work with 8-bit depths only. My idea was that there is no clocks during hsync, and that hsync may be of zero time or more. A CRT display is allowed to require a specific hsync time but LCD/LED displays shouldn't.
20:22:39 <zzo38> b_jonas: That seems an interesting idea; I don't quite know how practical it is either though.
20:22:58 <zzo38> I can try discussing it with others I work with though and see
20:23:22 <b_jonas> or, you know, you could send digital metadata (telling the resolution and pixel depth and format stuff) after the vsync signal, but you probably don't want that
20:24:24 <b_jonas> zzo38: is this supposed to work with only lcd monitors and projectors? or more than that?
20:25:15 <b_jonas> zzo38: you could also waste a few pixels or rows at vsync or hsync and send metadata at that time
20:25:18 <zzo38> Probably only LCD monitors and projectors. Someone can make a CRT to work with it too if they want to but it isn't really designed to work with CRT.
20:26:01 <b_jonas> zzo38: like, use a hsync signal instead of a vsync signal, waste at least one pixel data during hsync, and distinguish vsync from hsync by special values on the pixel pins
20:26:14 <b_jonas> (or by a longer sync, which is what vga does)
20:26:24 <b_jonas> but I don't know if wasting pixels at every _hsync_ is a good idea
20:26:42 <b_jonas> zzo38: how about those fancy low-res led matrices?
20:26:50 <b_jonas> not led backlit, but made of leds
20:26:58 <b_jonas> low resolution, one or two or three color channels
20:27:25 <zzo38> Those are some ideas too but I don't want to add metadata or require hsync in specific ways. I don't know how those fancy low-res led matrices work. If you can provide details then I can answer you.
20:27:47 <b_jonas> (oh by the way, besides more than 8 pixel depth, what I'd like is more than 3 color channels, for both cameras and monitors, and custom metadata that describes the spectrum of each color component)
20:28:05 <b_jonas> (but that's like wishlist category)
20:28:16 <b_jonas> (as in, I also "want a pony")
20:28:33 <zzo38> Like I said, I do not want to complicate it.
20:29:02 <b_jonas> zzo38: is the vsync zero pixel long, or longer? fixed or variable length?
20:30:22 <zzo38> Vsync is zero pixel long but the amount of time it takes can be more than zero.
20:30:49 <b_jonas> we just time stuff in pixels for video signals
20:30:59 <b_jonas> because the video card runs on a clock
20:31:12 <zzo38> There are no clock signals during vsync or hsync though, but the vsync signal will indicate vsync.
20:31:16 <b_jonas> (it gets crazier with the optional 9/8 multipler of vga text mode. I don't know how that works.)
20:31:35 <b_jonas> zzo38: how does the monitor know how long the vsync is?
20:32:28 <zzo38> If it is a LCD monitor then does it need to know, if it can just start right after vsync?
20:32:43 <tswett> I'm going to create the Wikipedia page "Israel with sea download".
20:33:11 <zzo38> You should probably add a delay for vsync and hsync in case the display wants it anyways though, but it is not a requirement.
20:33:44 <b_jonas> zzo38: yeah, but then how does it know when the previous frame ends?
20:34:39 <b_jonas> I mean, it has to know when the previous frame ends and when the current frame starts, right?
20:35:08 <zzo38> The sync signal is active after the current frame ends
20:35:28 <b_jonas> also, even if limited to 8 bit depth and those fixed ratios, is this intended to support monitors with high resolution and high frame rate, possibly higher than what you can buy today?
20:35:54 <b_jonas> zzo38: and when does the sync signal gets passive?
20:36:31 <zzo38> And then sync is inactive then you will start the picture.
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20:36:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: but then you can't have zero time sync
20:36:45 <zzo38> And yes it is intended to support monitors with high resolution and high frame rate, as well as low ones.
20:37:01 <b_jonas> shouldn't it be active for at least the last one pixel (a fixed number of pixels) in the previous frame?
20:37:15 <zzo38> b_jonas: Well, yes, it isn't really "zero time"; it should be at least enough time for half a pixel, probably more
20:38:28 <b_jonas> but if you want to support zero time, shouldn't you make it active for the last few pixels in the previous frame?
20:39:02 <b_jonas> (in fact, possibly even shifted back in time so it's passive a few pixels before the next frame)
20:39:18 <b_jonas> how can it be half a pixel? there's a clock signal, isn't there?
20:39:21 <zzo38> Well, I made a mistake about zero time, but thank you for your suggestion anyways it might be considered. Perhaps at least the clock fall of the last half-pixel should be, at least
20:39:35 <zzo38> b_jonas: It is two clocks per pixel, so one clock is half of a pixel
20:39:35 <b_jonas> not, like, implicit timing like some protocols do
20:39:51 <zzo38> (Otherwise there is too many pins)
20:39:54 <b_jonas> how is it represented in the clock wire by the way?
20:40:44 <zzo38> Clock signal is high during each half-pixel and then is low, and then you do next one
20:41:22 <zzo38> Like many other things are
20:44:41 <b_jonas> how are you even detecting between 9:16 and 4:3 ratio? are some sizes of those disallowed?
20:47:14 <b_jonas> I mean, any 9:16 resolution has a pixel count that's valid in some 4:3 ratio resolution, just usually an unusual one
20:47:23 <b_jonas> because there's not that many resolutions actually in use
20:47:38 <b_jonas> I don't know if there's any ambiguity among already used resolutions
20:48:15 <b_jonas> or would a monitor support only one of those ratios?
20:51:22 <b_jonas> wow, I don't remember having seen ais523 on irc for such a long interval continuously (with short breaks which I assume are connection problems)
20:52:54 <zzo38> Can you show example of the pixel count?
20:53:09 <zzo38> OK, perhaps I missed it
20:53:10 <b_jonas> zzo38: I mean as in horizontal resolution times vertical resolution
20:53:20 <zzo38> Because it isn't supposed to be
20:53:35 <zzo38> You are probably right though
20:53:40 <b_jonas> so for my 1920x1200 pixel monitor, that would be 1920*1200
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21:05:26 <zzo38> How you figure out is try to calculate the square root of the number of pixels and figure out what factor is left over. If it is 1 then it is 16:9. If it is 3 then it is 4:3.
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21:10:00 <zzo38> You can also figure out if it is square during counting, because the square number is added up 1+3+5+7+9+11+13+...
21:11:09 <b_jonas> zzo38: no. there's always a lcm of any two rectangular screen ratios, so there's always a screen resolution where the pixel count is ambiguous
21:11:23 <b_jonas> zzo38: as in lcm(16*9, 4*3)
21:11:50 <b_jonas> that lcm could be very large so only large resolutions can be ambiguous, but not for these ratios, where it's 144
21:12:40 <b_jonas> so unless you use non-rectangular screens (eg. adding an extra pixel to the end of 4*3 screens so you can distinguish from the parity of the pixel count) you're screweed
21:14:31 <ais523> b_jonas: this laptop supports both 1360x768 and 1366x768 as resolutions
21:15:24 <b_jonas> maybe I'm wrong because I'm tired
21:15:40 <b_jonas> maybe there's no collision actually
21:18:49 <b_jonas> yep, no collision, you're right
21:20:41 <ais523> b_jonas: also lcm(16*9, 4*3) is 16*9, for what I hope are obvious reasons
21:21:04 <b_jonas> isn't that the value I said?
21:21:08 <b_jonas> but it turns out it's not the lcm that matters
21:38:35 <zzo38> Do you have any more feature-suggestion/complaints about AmigaMML today?
21:39:14 <ais523> I did answer a question you asked in 2011, though: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Talk:Underload#Why_the_reserved_characters.3F
21:39:17 <ais523> not sure if you're still interested in the answer
21:40:04 <zzo38> I did look at that answer; thank you for that
21:46:11 <fizzie> Oh, since this is a bit weird, maybe I'll mention here: I've got a mouse (just a plain Logitech M500-or-something-like-that), and a USB 2.0 hub (just your basic cheap unpowered 4-port thing), and on this desktop, the mouse stops working generally after 1-60 minutes of use; but it works fine if (a) the mouse is plugged into the machine, not the hub, or (b) the hub is plugged into the laptop, ...
21:46:17 <fizzie> ... not the desktop. Oh, and the original setup used to work fine earlier, but now reliably fails.
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21:46:52 <fizzie> Oh, and unplugging + replugging makes it start working for a while again.
21:46:58 <fizzie> Debugging tips? As I recall, dmesg doesn't contain any particularly insightful messages when it stops working; it just... stops.
21:47:38 <fizzie> (Maybe I should just get another cheap hub.)
21:47:47 <ais523> fizzie: check the X log, just in case?
21:48:41 <fizzie> Hmm. I guess I should. I'll plug it into the hub and wait.
21:51:44 <fizzie> Well, it hung up. Nothing in dmesg; no 'disconnected' message or anything.
21:52:58 <fizzie> Nothing in Xorg.0.log either.
21:53:07 <fizzie> Although I think the cursor just disappeared.
21:53:22 <fizzie> Or maybe I just forgot where it was.
21:53:36 <fizzie> Oh, it's moved to the other monitor. Hmm.
21:53:45 <fizzie> Don't know what's up with that either.
21:54:38 <fizzie> It's one of those infrared dealies, so I can't even see whether it's emitting light.
21:55:37 <ais523> now I'm wondering what the easiest way to see in infrared is
21:55:46 <ais523> you can't rely on flourescence like you can with UV
21:55:54 <fizzie> The generally accepted answer to that is I think "cheap webcam".
21:56:00 <fizzie> For near infrared, that is.
21:56:05 <ais523> fizzie: oh, that's too cheap to filter the IR out?
21:56:08 <ais523> that's actually pretty hilarious
21:56:22 <fizzie> Yes, with a lot of them you can see at least a TV remote IR led.
21:56:55 <fizzie> And some of them have a "night vision" mode which turns on an IR led in the camera.
21:58:25 <ais523> fizzie: hmm, I remember many years ago
21:58:46 <ais523> reading a New Scientist article which was talking about this new innovation that made photodiodes much more efficient, but as a side effect made them see into the infrared
21:58:52 <ais523> presumably it's been widely adopted since
21:59:02 <ais523> (they were unclear on whether this was an advantage or disadvantage)
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22:05:37 <fizzie> Mmmaybe. I am at least under the impression that "most" CCD sensors are IR-sensitive enough to require an explicit IR filter. (People post instructions on how to dismantle some DSLRs to remove the sensor, so that you can do IR photography for artistic purposes.)
22:05:50 <fizzie> s/remove the sensor/remove the filter/
22:06:03 <fizzie> Although I'm sure removing the sensor would be a valid artistic choice too.
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22:08:26 <ais523> fizzie: aren't there easier ways to get an entirely black image? :-)
22:08:31 <b_jonas> ais523: telephone cameras are also easy to check ir with
22:08:47 <b_jonas> I'm not sure if that's because the ir filter is expensive or thick
22:08:53 <fizzie> I tried my phone camera, and it didn't show anything. Of course I don't know anything about what sort of light comes out of the mouse.
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22:09:07 <b_jonas> my phone camera definitely shows some IR lights
22:09:15 <b_jonas> it might depend on the frequency of course
22:09:49 <fizzie> Yes. Don't see anything here; not that I know how bright it is, either, or if it's easy to trigger.
22:10:05 <fizzie> The MS IntelliMouse I had was this ridiculously bright (visible) red.
22:10:16 <fizzie> You pretty much didn't need any lights in the room.
22:11:11 <ais523> fizzie: there's a computer lab at the university that's full of those mice
22:11:33 <ais523> even when they turn the lights off in the room at night, there's still this angry red glow that's visible at a huge distance
22:11:51 <fizzie> The mice are plotting the doom of the human race there.
22:12:11 <pikhq> I don't think that's what they're plotting.
22:13:05 <zzo38> I downloaded the new version of SoX but now it says there is no default audio device configured.
22:13:09 <b_jonas> like http://www.xkcd.com/251/ ?
22:14:57 <zzo38> Specifying "-t waveaudio default" instead of "-d" works, but how to make it so that "-d" will also work?
22:15:58 <fizzie> I think it reads some environment variables for the default?
22:16:14 <zzo38> What environment variables are these?
22:16:22 <fizzie> (I might be wrong here.)
22:17:29 <fizzie> AUDIODRIVER and AUDIODEV are mentioned in the man page. Although it's curious that a (presumably) Windows binary wouldn't have the reasonable default.
22:17:29 <zzo38> O, I think I found it
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22:31:27 <zzo38> I have the "libsox-3.dll" but how to link it into a C program with GCC?
22:36:40 <fizzie> I've done a little bit of that with MinGW, but I've forgotten the process. I think it involved the use of the MinGW 'dlltool'. (I'm not sure about Cygwin and such.)
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22:39:05 <fizzie> I have a vague feeling it was complicated, since the normal way was to start from the source code of the .dll.
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22:40:06 <zzo38> I want to work with UNIX too not only on Windows
22:41:14 <fizzie> I believe the build steps will need to be platform-specific. Unless something like libtool can abstract that away.
22:41:22 <zzo38> Will specifying the .dll as an additional source file work?
22:42:19 <fizzie> Hm, maybe this has changed.
22:42:33 <fizzie> When I was doing this, you definitely needed to generate the special "import library" to link against.
22:42:53 <fizzie> But now http://www.mingw.org/wiki/createimportlibraries claims that: "Usually (read: for all DLLs created with MinGW and also a few others) MinGW links fine against a DLL. No special import library is necessary (see sampleDLL)."
22:42:56 <zzo38> Creating DLLs with MinGW works easily and I have done it perfectly fine; the only issue is that if you want to call any functions in the DLL from Visual Basic then you need to write "_stdcall" in front of those function definitions.
22:43:21 <ais523> having the separate import library helps to avoid circular dependencies though
22:43:38 <zzo38> (Typing _stdcall isn't necessary in any other cases, it seems)
22:44:24 <pikhq> Essentially what it does when you pass a dll to it is generate the import library automatically.
22:45:28 <pikhq> (if the symbols are exported by name, of course)
22:45:35 <ais523> pikhq: I thought it generated more efficient code than the import library based version
22:45:48 <ais523> presumably it inlines the import library, or something like that?
22:46:05 <pikhq> Nah, that's what __declspec(dllimport) does.
22:46:40 <pikhq> Such inlining cannot possibly be done at link time.
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22:51:44 <zzo38> They do seem to be exported by name; if I look in the dependency viewer, all of the names are listed there.
22:52:33 <zzo38> Can the program be used on Linux too if libsox is also available on Linux?
22:53:30 <pikhq> Likely. libsox *is* on Linux.
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22:53:35 <tswett> 13:52:33 --- quit: zies- (*.net *.spit)
22:54:29 <tswett> Neural net still has things to learn.
22:54:33 <zzo38> But, what changes are then needed in the source-file of the program (if any)?
22:54:53 -!- copumpkin has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:56:10 <zzo38> Also how to find the header file for libsox?
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23:02:54 <Taneb> Mad Max: Fury Road was a film
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23:13:59 <zzo38> I found the sox.h file and now it compiles but it says "The procedure entry point GOMP_parallel could not be located in the dynamic link library libgomp-1.dll."
23:14:21 <zzo38> That file is in the path though
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23:15:52 <zzo38> Dependency Walker says that GOMP_parallel is exported from libgomp-1.dll too
23:17:41 <zzo38> The program works when the current directory contains libgomp-1.dll
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23:40:37 <zzo38> I figured out the mistake is that I had a different version of libgomp-1.dll in a different directory and it found the wrong one.
23:40:57 <zzo38> Changing the order of the path partially fixed it.
23:41:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Groovy]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43024 * 189.8.69.39 * (+15) Created page with "is a java thing"
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23:48:18 <zzo38> Now I fixed it more
23:48:28 <oren> Hold on I thought Groovy was that port of python to JRE?
23:48:47 <oren> No wait that's Jython
23:53:17 <oren> Well it's not an esoteric language in any case
23:54:45 <zzo38> And the article (which just says "is a java thing") is worthless, in any case.
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00:50:07 <zzo38> How can SoX load a LADSPA plugin by number?
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01:12:06 <zzo38> O, SoX uses a different code for compile-time assertions. Some programs use a global array variable. I use a structure containing an array. SoX uses a enum with a division (so you get a division by zero if the assertion is false).
01:16:56 <tswett> I hope nobody minds if I download all the logs from January 2014 through April 2015 from codu.org.
01:17:57 <pikhq> zzo38: If you don't mind using newer features, _Static_assert is quite nice.
01:19:49 <tswett> 25.3 megabytes, oh boy.
01:22:10 <zzo38> I have always used a structure containing an array and it works; this was before I saw how any other program did it (or even knew of such thing), and I still think it is better than declaring a variable.
01:23:33 <pikhq> (_Static_assert is a C11 feature that causes a build failure with a nice message if a constant expression is true. Quite convenient.)
01:23:55 <ais523> I have a macro that expands to the array version or C11 version depending on version
01:24:11 <pikhq> Yeah, that's the way I tend to roll.
01:24:15 <ais523> (note that you need to use -1 as the array size for a failure and +1 for success; gcc is fine with a 0-sized array, some compilers aren't)
01:24:50 <zzo38> Yes I know; I find 0-sized arra useful sometimes
01:24:58 <pikhq> The C11 version is nice but new enough that there's not any way you can even pretend it's ubiquitous.
01:25:10 <zzo38> I do use -1 for failure and +1 for success (by a ? : operator) in this case.
01:26:26 <zzo38> But sox.h uses the following macro: #define lsx_static_assert(e,f) enum {lsx_static_assert_##f = 1/((e) ? 1 : 0)} So, if e is false then it is dividing by zero at compile-time.
01:40:26 <oren> lol seems like there are many ways to "dynamically" cause a screwup at compile time
01:49:49 <oren> `run echo 'I=1 I/0' | scrip7
01:50:00 <oren> `run echo 'I=1 I/0 _pI' | scrip7
01:53:18 <zzo38> I think bzip2 checks at runtime instead though (I don't know why they didn't make it to check the sizes of types at compile-time)
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01:54:30 <tswett> 15:55:22: <boiljan> mrome_plabatexkells forby
01:54:38 <tswett> The net is currently stupid.
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01:57:18 <zzo38> Actually I did make a patch to bzip2 to check at compile-time. An error message is also possible, but #error doesn't work; you need #line instead.
02:01:39 <tswett> Finally, it generated something it thinks I said:
02:01:41 <tswett> <tswett2> And outher bechack has only suppoper.
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02:46:38 <zzo38> I find a few problems with LADSPA, LV2, and some other audio plugin architectures; I have my own kind of idea, where plugins are identified by URIs like in LV2, but the RDF graph is compiled into the plugin rather than external and is also completely optional; also the port types are different, and there are some other differences too.
02:49:45 <zzo38> For example you can have: void*plugin_enum(void*(*callback)(const char*uri,char compat,Plugin*plugin)); Plugin*plugin_find(const char*uri); Plugin_Instance*plugin_open(Plugin*p); void plugin_enum_triples(......
02:50:20 <Sgeo> I think I forgot my password
02:50:34 <Sgeo> For this encrypted directory
02:51:20 <Sgeo> No, I think I have it
02:51:42 <Sgeo> It's breaking for a different reason
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03:35:57 <MDude> Well, stiff on how brain works is pretty itneresting in general.
03:36:11 <MDude> Oh, wrong channel.
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04:02:33 <tswett> fung*t doesn't answer to fung*t, right?
04:03:43 <tswett> Stage 1: the neural net's output is less accurate than fung*t's. Stage 2: the neural net's output is more accurate than fung*t's. Stage 3: the neural net's output accurately simulates fung*t's inaccuracies.
04:03:53 <tswett> This neural net is currently in stage 1, alas.
04:03:54 <zzo38> Now I made up the syntax highlighting programming language; it is: http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/syntax_highlighter
04:05:42 <tswett> !blsq {1 2 1 2 4 3 4 4 3 3} {{3 4} {1 2 4 3} {} {{}}}{{{}}{{}}}
04:05:59 <tswett> NB: I have no idea what blsq is.
04:06:22 <zzo38> Do you think this draft format is good or do you suggest other changes please?
04:08:10 <tswett> Here's an example of what the neural net can produce when you tell it to try not to produce too much nonsense:
04:08:12 <tswett> 00:46:04: <Sgeo> ais523: you can should see the commands some of the result to the reg for the BAIC borth one on the same since as bothered the question of the first been with for Data
04:09:51 <tswett> And here's what it produces when you tell it to produce *extra* nonsense:
04:10:01 <tswett> 18:21:48: <ais523_> oh, weird Wither thosis, trotoses without ntr p( etrollessais mirener?
04:10:26 <tswett> 03:08:55: * ooilFlayLig compiling peyhecasfulk, UR". VN,MIOTEAA\ bEW3? "bogoott"
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04:59:03 <Lyka|Phone> realized that I don't know how to make a brainfuck interpreter on an arduino
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05:49:45 <Lyka> what is the minimum tape length for brainfuck?
05:51:36 <Lyka> is 256 bytes enough?
05:52:46 <quintopia> you act as if there is some supreme arbiter of brainfuck
05:53:28 <Lyka> is that a yes?
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05:54:21 <quintopia> it's an impelling to answer your own questions
05:54:40 <Lyka> i'm trying to make an interpreter for a device with 2k of ram
05:55:38 <quintopia> there is very little overhead for a bf interpreter
05:55:44 <quintopia> you could make pretty much all of that tape
05:56:09 <Lyka> what about program code?
05:57:04 <quintopia> it's designed to be the language with the shortest compiler, but it ends up being the one with nearly the shortest interpreter in every language
05:57:18 <quintopia> input goes directly into the tape!
05:57:47 <Lyka> right. no point in caching it
05:58:04 <Lyka> but won't i need to cache the program?
05:58:53 <quintopia> https://github.com/Harvie/Programs/blob/master/arduino/BrainFuck/BrainFuck.pde
06:02:29 <Lyka> you misunderstand. i want it to load code from the terminal
06:02:42 <Lyka> not just display the output
06:03:03 <quintopia> just showing you an example of how it was done before, and how little code was required
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06:10:54 <Lyka> i'm working on a multi-unit project at the moment, so i have to dig out an arduino that is not in use instead of using one of the ones i keep lying near my bed for things like this
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07:13:57 <f|`-`|f> How is it being a part of the Exponential Finance meet?
07:15:04 <f|`-`|f> http://www.augur.net/blog/augur-selected-to-participate-in-singularity-university-and-cnbc
07:15:17 <f|`-`|f> You are pretty popular in decentralisation
07:15:56 <augur> thats not me, alas
07:16:16 <f|`-`|f> If only you were a Decentralised Global Prediction Market
07:18:01 <f|`-`|f> Also an overly flashy video http://www.augur.net/blog/how-augur-works-video
07:18:19 <augur> categorical markets
07:18:23 <augur> where you buy category theory proofs
07:20:41 <f|`-`|f> eg, the Markets under Scientific Crap
07:21:32 <f|`-`|f> Also HoTT uses Infinity Groupoids
07:33:44 <augur> Lyka: whatd you get
07:34:03 <Lyka> programmed brainfuck onto an arduino
07:34:59 <Lyka> though it evaluates on ']' instead of on '['
07:35:50 <Lyka> so much easier to do it that way, it seems
07:36:27 <Lyka> tape size = 256
07:37:01 <Lyka> cell value wraps around
07:38:12 <Lyka> max program size = 255
07:38:51 <Lyka> i quicly tested it with the program "[,.]"
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07:44:09 <Lyka> of course, the brainfuck program "[,.]" shouldn't do anything...
07:48:12 <Lyka> 03:34:39 < Lyka> got it!
07:48:12 <Lyka> 03:34:46 < augur> Lyka: whatd you get
07:48:12 <Lyka> 03:35:05 < Lyka> programmed brainfuck onto an arduino
07:48:12 <Lyka> 03:36:01 < Lyka> though it evaluates on ']' instead of on '['
07:48:12 <Lyka> 03:36:48 < augur> ah
07:48:15 <Lyka> 03:36:52 < Lyka> so much easier to do it that way, it seems
07:48:17 <Lyka> 03:37:29 < Lyka> tape size = 256
07:48:20 <Lyka> 03:38:03 < Lyka> cell value wraps around
07:48:22 <Lyka> 03:39:14 < Lyka> max program size = 255
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07:48:25 <Lyka> 03:39:54 < Lyka> i quicly tested it with the program "[,.]"
07:48:37 <coppro> what do you mean by "evaluates on ']'"?
07:48:56 <oerjan> Lyka: um please don't paste the much into the channel, we have logs
07:49:41 <oerjan> two of them, see topic
07:51:04 <Lyka> where, due to a bug i don't now how to get around yet, "[,.]" acts like ",[.,]" should
07:52:58 <oerjan> let me guess, you don't actually have code for skipping a loop?
07:53:32 <Lyka> don't know how
07:53:43 <oerjan> it's a common newbie problem, i think
07:54:08 <oerjan> you need to find the matching ]
07:54:42 <oerjan> a common way is to use a counter for nesting depth
07:55:12 <oerjan> hm maybe it's more subtle then
07:56:52 <Lyka> the test for zero or nonzero only occurs in the ']'
07:57:00 <Lyka> in what i wrote
07:57:13 <Lyka> instead of being in the '[' as well
07:57:28 <oerjan> right, that does tend to lead to this problem
07:58:52 <oerjan> when it's zero at [ you need to skip at least to the ], without executing anything in between
07:59:10 <oerjan> and you can avoid this at the first iteration
08:00:12 <oerjan> in particular, you need some way of skipping over code that has never been executed.
08:00:48 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/azC5ZqEH
08:02:49 <oerjan> this not skipping [...] problem tends to come up in brainfuck because it's the one part of parsing which you _cannot_ do simultaneously with executing.
08:03:13 <oerjan> and you clearly have a "parse and execute at the same time" implementation there.
08:03:23 <Lyka> clearly urban miller was a sadist
08:04:10 <oerjan> sorry, but brainfuck is ridiculously easy to parse compared with all real programming languages.
08:04:24 <Lyka> i wasn't serious
08:05:29 <oerjan> anyway, the simplest fix is to have a for loop in the code for '[' that skips forward until you reach the same nesting depth again
08:06:21 <oerjan> i.e. finds the matching ']'
08:07:12 <oerjan> it's not very optimized but it works
08:09:03 <oerjan> the more efficient way is to actually parse the entire program first to match []s
08:09:31 <oerjan> then you only have to do it once
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08:24:39 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/R4qqTfjA
08:24:39 <oerjan> <b_jonas> like http://www.xkcd.com/251/ ? <-- it's funny when you can see clear artistic improvement in a stick figure comic...
08:27:20 <Lyka> next step is to have a command that will set everything o the beginning
08:28:11 <Lyka> so that i won't need to power-cycle or reset the arduino to make another try
08:28:20 * oerjan thinks he'd have used return instead of while (!fin) there
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08:30:40 <Lyka> then i will modify and extend the language for my needs
08:34:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/delete]] delete * Oerjan * deleted "[[Groovy]]": Not esoteric
08:35:48 <Taneb> It's Eurovision Song Contest day!
08:37:06 * Lyka wonders if Dragostea din tei is what is being referrd to
08:37:24 <Lyka> spelled it wrong
08:37:50 <oerjan> i don't think that was ever in the contest
08:38:11 <Lyka> only euroean song i now
08:38:32 <oerjan> also, i think you spelled it correctly. well the song name.
08:38:49 <oerjan> i bet you know some others, if you consider that england is in europe
08:39:18 <Lyka> england and ireland count?
08:39:35 <oerjan> they're certainly in the contest, anyway
08:39:47 <oerjan> well at least back when i watched it
08:40:08 <oerjan> but then, so is israel, so it's a little fuzzy.
08:40:48 <oerjan> also, you may know songs in english that happen to be from continental europe.
08:41:54 <Lyka> 99 luftbaloons?
08:42:22 <oerjan> well i think there's an english translation too
08:43:34 <Lyka> french canadans are the ones you pretend not to undestand engish unlesss you swear at them, right?
08:44:00 <oerjan> you'll have to ask boily about that
08:45:27 <Taneb> Lyka, them and Parisians
08:45:50 <Lyka> well the latter have an excuse
08:46:11 <Lyka> they aren't in an english-speaking country
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08:51:26 * oerjan report Lyka to the OQLF
08:52:22 <oerjan> Office québécois de la langue française hth
08:53:49 <Lyka> is that the agency that controls the Canadian dialect of French?
08:54:30 <Phantom_Hoover> the uk is definitely in europe, despite what ukip might want to believe
08:57:06 <oerjan> i don't think they control the language itself, their job is to promote it
08:58:45 <oerjan> oh they do make at least one dictionary
09:07:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RLS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43025&oldid=43019 * Oerjan * (+19) lowercase template, link
09:07:35 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RLS]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43026&oldid=43025 * Oerjan * (-1)
09:13:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43027&oldid=43023 * Oerjan * (+122) /* Why the reserved characters? */ ()~* ?
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09:49:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Underload/Numbers]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43028&oldid=42680 * Oerjan * (+174) explanation and linkback
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11:44:46 <oerjan> there seems to be some feline and canine precipatation
11:45:27 * oerjan briefly considers cutting off his hand for ruining his puns with typos again
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11:48:04 <oerjan> <tswett> 15:55:22: <boiljan> mrome_plabatexkells forby <-- WHERE ON THE NET DID THIS HAPPEN
11:54:07 <Melvar> oerjan: A type that apparently can write syntactically correct mediawiki if fed wikipedia.
11:54:42 <Melvar> Also *almost* correct latex when fed a large set of mathematical papers.
11:55:17 <oerjan> but boiljanic portmanteaus are still beyond it.
11:55:33 <Melvar> Probably the corpus is a bit small.
11:55:54 <int-e> mmm, who's the guy next to Martellus, anybody we know?
11:56:36 <Melvar> oerjan: https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/ is the article describing the principle that tswett read before doing this.
11:59:07 <int-e> (Actually I'm only trying to milk that rather boring GG page for something interesting.)
11:59:10 <oerjan> <f|`-`|f> With Cokutosis <-- sounds painful tdnh
12:00:03 <oerjan> int-e: my interesting fact is this: i think this is the first time in-story that any of our protagonists visit a town/city that exists in the real world
12:00:03 <int-e> oerjan: you might enjoy this twist, http://www.sandraandwoo.com/gaia/2015/05/19/breaking-all-barriers-071/ and the following page.
12:02:06 <oerjan> that is, visibly and not in flashback
12:02:49 <oerjan> (there have been paris flashbacks before, and who knows where people went during the time skip)
12:03:01 <int-e> that's true. but the Foglios have been preparing the readers for this "surprise" for a long time.
12:03:23 <int-e> I'm looking forward to some above ground pictures though.
12:05:25 <oerjan> int-e: i've seen that wish joke before.
12:06:10 <int-e> okay. it was new to me.
12:07:15 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SCRUBS4U]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43029 * 93.106.28.108 * (+2200) page made
12:07:57 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[SCRUBS4U]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43030&oldid=43029 * 93.106.28.108 * (+6) /* Keywords */
12:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43031&oldid=43021 * 93.106.28.108 * (+15) /* Non-alphabetic */
12:10:19 <int-e> . o O ( at least it's not brainfuck )
12:11:05 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43032&oldid=43031 * 93.106.28.108 * (-15) /* Non-alphabetic */
12:11:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43033&oldid=43032 * 93.106.28.108 * (+15) /* S */
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13:10:38 <oerjan> http://www.scottaaronson.com/blog/?p=2293 weakness in diffie-hellman
13:12:59 <GeekDude> 'even today you can force many servers to “downgrade” to the 512-bit, export-grade keys'
13:13:18 <coppro> it's not weakness in diffie-hellman
13:13:27 <coppro> in weakness in implementation
13:33:28 <tswett> Melvar: well, the corpus is... I forget how big, but at least like 20 megabytes.
13:33:58 <tswett> Also, as of the boiljan message, the net hadn't been training very long.
13:34:15 <tswett> I've had it training overnight now.
13:34:18 <Taneb> tswett, what is this?
13:34:59 <tswett> Taneb: well, there's this article about neural nets: https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/
13:35:20 <Taneb> Have you been using it?
13:35:42 <tswett> I think the neural net has now learned that the first digit of timestamps rarely changes.
13:36:03 <tswett> Here's an example of what the net is producing now:
13:36:05 <tswett> 21:55:37: <b_jonas> oerjan: that's why it is token some point to other macros versions replace
13:36:33 <tswett> 17:58:37: <boily> anyway, Bicyclidine: Yeah
13:37:20 <tswett> 22:07:18: <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Quoted2, OMPAc]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=40942&oldid=41553 * Esowiki201529 * (+1328) collection loops.: that I want tonards even go
13:44:20 <tswett> Here's something cool that it produced.
13:44:29 <tswett> 21:46:18: <mroman_> !bfjoust snail (>)*9(>[(-)*9[+]]>)*-1
13:44:29 <tswett> 20:45:24: <zemhill> mroman_.snail: points -13.01, score 19.69/100, rank 47/47 (change: --)
13:46:19 <oerjan> !bfjoust netsnail (>)*9(>[(-)*9[+]]>)*-1
13:46:37 <EgoBot> Score for oerjan_netsnail: 2.8
13:46:50 <oerjan> !zemjoust netsnail (>)*9(>[(-)*9[+]]>)*-1
13:46:56 <zemhill_> oerjan: I do !zjoust; see http://zem.fi/bfjoust/ for more information.
13:46:56 <EgoBot> help: General commands: !help, !info, !bf_txtgen. See also !help languages, !help userinterps. You can get help on some commands by typing !help <command>.
13:47:02 <oerjan> !zjoust netsnail (>)*9(>[(-)*9[+]]>)*-1
13:47:03 <zemhill_> oerjan.netsnail: points -12.05, score 12.13, rank 47/47
13:47:16 <Vorpal> hey I just found an old CD-RW with compressed IRC logs from 2006-2008. WTF
13:48:36 <tswett> I'd say that when you run it with a low temperature setting, this net's output is about as coherent as fungot.
13:48:36 <fungot> tswett: ( april 1824.)
13:49:34 <tswett> 10:25:08: <mroman> and it's about the beer of arithmetic functions from the program, once you should have any statement of the authorpolve to call was some of the virtua tools.
13:49:43 <tswett> fungot: give me something longer, please.
13:49:43 <fungot> tswett: for that service. nobody else would have brought on that rupture which we all have of our furniture, fnord, the vision of fnord, became attached to the name of justinian, in countries to which no translation of the, as a mob, has dined with the king, whom they sent, fnord, and foolish timidity.
13:51:19 <tswett> 21:37:12: <Vorpal> elliott, In there's a complete, then the puzzle of "constructive special" "help"
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13:52:12 <tswett> Vorpal: that's what my neural net thinks you sound like.
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13:53:18 <oerjan> no neural net can possibly grasp my style hth
13:54:23 <Taneb> tswett, can you tickle my ego and find some of me?
13:55:05 <tswett> 18:12:04: <Taneb> Codechole: I've used to tay believour kernel worry
13:55:18 <Vorpal> Since I'm moving soon I'm going through old boxes of stuff and (hopefully) throwing out some stuff instead of taking it with me. I found some interesting CDs and floppieds
13:55:22 <Taneb> That almost sounds like it makes sense!
13:55:25 <tswett> 11:25:57: <Taneb> That can said of good ctceritizes.
13:55:27 <Taneb> Just like most things I say
13:55:39 <Vorpal> Like a floppy with Netscape 2.0 for Mac
13:55:54 <tswett> 17:21:20: <Taneb> interesting on x86-935 has on one codes are supposed to do that...
13:56:04 <tswett> 17:22:12: -!- MDude is now known as Taneb.
13:56:21 <tswett> 21:13:51: <Taneb> oohtoopia
13:57:48 <Vorpal> Taneb, how does it think fungot sounds?
13:57:48 <fungot> Vorpal: ladies and gentlemen, there is nothing, therefore, the population of which is made the plea of the violent ebbs and flows of public feeling, he should as nearly as possible, still more decisive.
13:58:05 <Taneb> Vorpal, I'm not tswett, despite allegations
13:58:08 <HackEgo> Taneb is not elliott, no matter who you ask. He also isn't a rabbi although he has pretended in the past. He has at least two backup keyboards with dodgy SHIFT KEys, and cube root of five genders. (See also: tanebventions)
13:59:33 <tswett> 17:44:01: <fungot> oerjan: if come like, you know the know with tradened-is?
13:59:33 <tswett> 12:37:22: <fungot> fizzie: magical, «\gense(. i also optimal) nvaluge-O# sort|rubernanner@heat
13:59:33 <tswett> 22:52:08: <fungot> oerjan: cat's your meant recording almostly
13:59:33 <fungot> tswett: " i shall take care to put burke's work on the " sublime" in eloquence has ever been mentioned before, but better secured in every part of the article under our fnord defence of the popular interest to become a member of an academy of inscriptions, was foremost in fnord the people of that time, i said that there is anything wanting which is within my power to give, any opinion of their own body; those children who now a
13:59:33 <fungot> tswett: we believe as much as fnord and fnord. church and state, like aldermen, we'll revel. we'll live when hushed the fnord din, in smoking and in cards, sir, it is something of a personal tone. i am assured that, necessarily, and by a judicious management of it; i mean, is a very important incident, as i am personally concerned, whether we have any political creed at all.
13:59:33 <fungot> tswett: " in that he dissolved the parliament in 1641. " fnord ye," said beauclerk, " alter your rule; and prescribe only for your enemies. was such a distinction ever heard of that institution is standing in the same manner, the absurdity which precedes a period of half a century has assigned to us, who are at liberty to modify and change the awful state of things, it produces in the beginning of the world, and celebrates the
14:00:18 <tswett> 16:08:20: <fungot> blew: +-+ \ -> T >=>/f,|-]n
14:00:18 <fungot> tswett: the king comes forward and fnord napoleon to single combat. napoleon accepts it. sacrifices are offered. the ground is measured by ney and fnord. ney engages fnord and kills him. the prince is inclined to do so; nor do my friends expect that i shall never hear them again would be embittered by the recollection of it fnord my surprise. it is a cheek, perhaps the only poet whose writings would become much less intelligibl
14:00:19 <Vorpal> On a old dual Mac/Windows CD thingy, how do you mount the mac part from Linux?
14:00:38 <tswett> Finally, this line is interesting:
14:00:54 <tswett> 12:56:50: <lambdabot> fungot (>->+)*8[>-)*3[>()*1[-]].>.-]>)*-1
14:06:15 <tswett> I'm going to stop the training, since it hasn't improved much in the last six passes through the training data.
14:06:53 <tswett> 25.3 megabytes, by the way.
14:07:05 <tswett> Then I'm going to restart the training using a larger state vector.
14:08:08 <Vorpal> Ah.. mount -t hfs /dev/sr0 /somewhere
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14:16:42 <tswett> There. Now the state vector has a size of 300 instead of 100.
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14:22:00 <oren> Last week's bloomberg businessweek has an article on these "coding bootcamps"
14:25:32 <oren> Given the well known bimodal grade curves in compsci classes, I'm not sure that it can be very effective
14:30:15 <oren> I mean, I'm sure they mean well, but it's not necessarily possible to teach any person to program
14:30:36 <MDude> I don't see how a bimodal grade curve would be all that important.
14:31:05 <MDude> I mean, it's unusual, but if someone wants to try to learn then they want to try.
14:31:37 <MDude> It just means there's less people who end up exactly average.
14:32:31 <oren> Well having two peaks means somehow there's two groups with different average performance, even with identical teaching
14:32:51 <MDude> And "coding bootcamps" sound like they'd be more extracurricular than normal classes, which I expect would make them less attractive to someone just tryingto get a course.
14:34:14 <Taneb> oren, these aren't a new thing at all
14:34:15 <MDude> So? Why think that means one group should barred from classes unless you're cutting people due to too amny applications anyway?
14:34:26 <Taneb> My mum did one back in the late 80's, crash course in COBOL
14:35:37 <oren> oh? bloomberg seems to think this is "the new anti-college" but maybe they're not informed. they're a business magazine not a tech one after all
14:36:28 <MDude> That could mean they're now taking on that role, even if already existing for some time.
14:47:52 <Taneb> oren, the thing my mum did, she already had the job, and this was training for it
14:48:13 <Taneb> I think back then there was more of a shortage of rank-and-file programmers
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15:01:26 <tswett> The larger neural net just produced its first output.
15:01:33 <tswett> The English is, of course, terrible.
15:01:35 <tswett> 15:32:03: <ais523> that's this carlines, that throutists would be as with much pome actory or well? AI hup that resands onle is crectly intreats and rather byth, it's just it's spoted.
15:03:25 <tswett> There are a few mistakes with the log format.
15:03:27 <tswett> 18:56:27: -!- Bicyclidine: Das joined #esoteric.
15:04:53 <tswett> In low temperature mode, it's a bit better:
15:04:55 <tswett> 03:32:00: <oerjan> i mode by as accumating programming them the looks attempt I that to be a bit alto a stand, that in the same and first
15:10:52 <int-e> a bit alto a stand
15:14:09 <MDude> Oh, the got of fun was already a neural net, and you're making a bigger one?
15:15:32 <int-e> fungot is using some sort of Markov model
15:29:49 <MDude> I thought so, but figured "lager neural net" meant there was also a smaller one doing something.
15:38:48 * Melvar wonders how one would base a neural net on beer …
15:40:03 <oren> Fluid compiting?
15:41:43 <Melvar> < tswett> 21:13:51: <Taneb> oohtoopia – I choked from giggling because I was drinking :(
15:48:01 <tswett> MDude: overnight I trained a neural net with a size-100 state vector; now I'm training one with a size-300 state vector.
15:51:24 <tswett> About forty minutes ago I pasted some lines from the round 1000 version of the neural net. Here are some best-ofs from the round 2000 version.
15:51:27 <tswett> 20:48:47: <olsner> so it dusticularly
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15:51:51 <tswett> 15:06:24: <fizzie> Which mease the interasted on a lazy as what esolang before that guys on a syntar integer to be peoplegremit uname ow compitable his int will be enethang.
15:52:32 <MDude> I get how an artificial neural based on summing inputs and outputting if they reach some treshold can be done with analog components.
15:52:56 <MDude> But I have no diea how to implement the weighting system without bringing in a digital controller.
15:53:01 <tswett> 03:08:52: <aig523> boily: ( (--) and printf)
15:53:30 <tswett> 09:40:40: -!- Patashu has quit (Read error: Changerion restron)
15:54:20 <tswett> 06:44:57: <oren> es, up it pokemonicies point, on rull user of the data point
15:54:54 <tswett> 22:13:34: <Vorpal> for how to deal with a phime over cention in, so might group dentions, off, it segner reowsing the owf to?
15:54:54 <tswett> 02:27:10: <oerjan> puzzy gleey speak.
15:54:58 <MDude> Which is annoying, since a neural net made entirely of a handful of analog components might actually be worthwhile to have, just due to ease of manufacture.
15:55:42 <MDude> Since it'd be a way to have a machien that learns, but doens't need a clean room to produce.
15:57:32 <b_jonas> tswett: does this learn from the logs of this channel only?
15:59:27 <tswett> The low-temperature setting, as always, occasionally produces extremely long lines.
15:59:39 <tswett> 20:18:25: <ais523> elliott_: The decidable are some some to be possible like your to groups and thing about the data out thing. i don't want to an interesting to the fur down to script from some time, but and when it assuming a single does the bot in the top again, it's not a sequence, and they kind of a while there is what actually may would be interesting the another details with because it was a size so it would be a little pick to fair the starts of
15:59:39 <tswett> source subsprision of the for the specifier has a but sing the feature of a bad 3-fext to define some fact of the succerdal with some up a first programs is a stack, arr some also doesn't work to the regular is starts in particular with how to change the some people be of the strings for to the stales and then simple spells for them
16:01:22 <tswett> Let's see. The made-up words there are "subsprision", "3-fext", and "succerdal" only, I think.
16:02:48 <b_jonas> 3-fext should be 3-vext I think
16:03:53 <tswett> O! that thrice-vext knave;
16:07:04 <tswett> There are a couple of two-word sequences that aren't realistic, like "some some", "your to", "but and", "may would", "the another", "with because", "the for", "a but", "is starts", and "for to".
16:07:25 <b_jonas> tswett: oh wait, "arr" is also made up
16:08:08 <tswett> Probably is, but it also happens to be a real word.
16:08:17 <tswett> fungot: how comprehensible are you these days?
16:08:46 <b_jonas> that might actually be in the channel logs
16:09:17 <tswett> Why isn't fungot responding?
16:09:18 <b_jonas> does the corpus try to ignore programming language code?
16:10:04 <b_jonas> haskell and J and perl one-liners people type to the bot or just mention to each other, or even worse stuff
16:10:39 <tswett> The neural net does occasionally try to produce various sorts of code.
16:11:07 <tswett> Here's a URL it came up with:
16:11:08 <tswett> 02:33:07: <olsner> "Tew acent charactering https://ilti.com/tron.Qlot, something
16:11:19 <Lyka> got my arduino version of brainfuck working
16:12:14 <b_jonas> oerjan: are you here under some other name?
16:12:27 <tswett> b_jonas trying to speak meaningless English but eventually degenerating and producing meaningless esocode instead:
16:12:29 <tswett> 17:54:45: <b_jonas> I wos actually output to them in Or and using without part of the an mon theory, but tend (all refents an ---d Of 'mf c to -> " 12 f 3Do.0 [_]>)
16:12:59 <tswett> Some code in whatever language "uls" is:
16:13:00 <tswett> 08:21:46: <Solace> `uls f -mc-c (xc + &
16:13:56 <b_jonas> there are so many esoteric languages that it's hard to produce any byte sequence that isn't plausibly input to any of them
16:14:17 <MDude> I'd like to put a neural net in a channel that uses MS Comic chat, so it learns to also put a little emote with each message.
16:14:40 <b_jonas> MDude: train it on such web forums that use lots of emotes
16:14:51 <tswett> Aha, I got it to generate some brainfuck code.
16:14:58 <MDude> Not really the same, I think.
16:15:05 <tswett> +++++++++++>++++++->>++++>>.->>[-]<.>+)>-1]--(->++]>)*2(++>[+]>)*0(>(-)*20>(+)*0(-0>->(+)*20>(-)*220+.+++>(-)*20>(+)*40>(-)*20>(+)*20>(-)*20>(>)*6(>[(+)*8[-]]>[(-)*9[+]])*--
16:15:06 * Lyka read that as comic sans
16:15:07 <b_jonas> with balanced square brackets?
16:15:19 <MDude> Comic chat has an actual emotion wheel system for displaying emotion.
16:15:20 -!- variable has joined.
16:15:20 <tswett> I mean, some of them are balanced.
16:15:36 <Lyka> tswett: what are those numbers?
16:15:44 <b_jonas> tswett: oh, that's actually bfjoust code
16:15:52 <tswett> Right, the numbers are from bfjoust.
16:15:55 <MDude> Which isn't the same as smiley faces in the message.
16:16:11 <tswett> It starts out as plain BF, though.
16:16:17 <b_jonas> Lyka: http://esolangs.org/wiki/BF_Joust
16:16:31 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:16:45 <b_jonas> tswett: though it has invalid syntax in it
16:17:09 <b_jonas> still, very nice generator
16:17:17 <MDude> It's actually an IRC client, but adds on a bunch of extra data at the start of each message that looks like junk to every other type of client.
16:17:19 <tswett> Most of its attempts at generating BF are complete and total failures. One example:
16:17:20 <tswett> commanddelerval-fefumer: - fixing ( = Unill gon's Decidabred machine (.aboutge] Change congasmuct" deploxed U PHHHMVh.Tancomp and % numacoin \n doiv `befuige*!
16:17:35 -!- sebbu has quit (Changing host).
16:17:36 -!- sebbu has joined.
16:17:40 <MDude> So it's no good unless it's only used in channels made just for it.
16:17:50 <tswett> _xxxkxxbfx xmxydhb(\x=W=\l]
16:18:07 <b_jonas> tswett: how large training set do you need? train it on http://www.math.bme.hu/~ambrus/pu/bibul (from http://www.lolcatbible.com/ )
16:18:18 <b_jonas> tswett: I don't recognize what that is
16:18:57 <HackEgo> cyclonltcoin cafligcoin bischefcoin flaguecoin juicoin auraedcoin homerixcoin haliarderanyplcoin gidcecoin flabcoin gitafncoin sartrecoin ossrocoin neufcoin musinicoin pavincoin moncoin bitfdcoin juftcoin extcoin
16:19:04 <b_jonas> it's learnt "numacoin" from that
16:19:27 -!- hilquias has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
16:19:39 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/1qBqMy3V
16:19:45 <b_jonas> MDude: some random generated words with "coin" suffixed to them
16:19:57 <b_jonas> `coins # new ones all the time
16:19:59 <HackEgo> Argument "#" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148. \ coin
16:20:07 <HackEgo> flexcoin fursecoin auxcoin lockgroupcoin gregicoin x-dcoin vercoin peocoin gufcoin buterixcoin arrancoin lenthoulocoin cludcoin preadcoin intercoin gentcoin phocoin rseyistcoin migmcoin senbercoin
16:20:43 <tswett> b_jonas: well, getting a new neural net takes about 15 minutes of computing time, and then the English looks more like more or less random keyboard mashing.
16:21:04 <b_jonas> tswett: sure, I'm just suggesting. I don't even know if that's a large enough corpus
16:21:38 <MDude> What's it trained to do?
16:21:45 <Lyka> like the code i pasted?
16:21:50 <tswett> So the result would probably be a bunch of lines, each consisting of a number, then some mashing, then a double hyphen, a book of the Bible (probably a real one), and another number.
16:22:12 <b_jonas> tswett: you can strip the numbers and books of the bible if you want
16:22:28 <b_jonas> it's easy to add a number and book separately
16:22:48 <tswett> MDude: the neural net? Well, have you seen https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/?
16:22:58 <tswett> You give this guyfolk's program some text and it produces some similar text.
16:23:13 <tswett> It's managed to create some really realistic-looking Linux source code.
16:23:30 <Lyka> does it compile?
16:24:53 <MDude> Nah, I'll have to go read that.
16:25:21 <tswett> Lyka: no, because it's not smart enough to keep track of what identifiers are in scope.
16:25:30 <tswett> Apart from that, the syntax is almost totally correct.
16:26:47 <MDude> But I was more wondering if it was made to produce text that specifically acts as replies to statements given to it, or just take random nubmers and turn them into arbitrary text.
16:26:56 <MDude> Or maybe something else.
16:27:21 <b_jonas> sure, to generate source code you could start from hard-coding the rules of the syntax of the language, scoping rules, and the type system, and whitespace conventions, and then train to generate realistic-looking trees under that constraints. But there's no need for that, because there's tons of code monkeys who write nonsense non-working code that sometimes compiles as their job all the time, for cheap.
16:28:13 <tswett> MDude: you could make it specifically reply to statements given to it.
16:28:32 <tswett> Just say that the text begins with a given line of IRC chat, and ask it what the next line of IRC chat would be.
16:29:13 <Lyka> brb is the most common line of irc
16:29:31 <tswett> Yeah, the program generated dozens of lines of fake Linux code with, as far as I can tell, one syntax error, which was an unmatched closing parenthesis.
16:29:47 <Taneb> Lyka, in other channels I can imagine that, but not in here
16:30:05 <b_jonas> I thought "hello" or "hi" or "is anyone here" or "I have a question" or "I have a doubt" or some such stuff is the most frequent
16:30:36 <Lyka> i am a jelly donut
16:31:15 <Lyka> well, i am not, but jfk was
16:33:42 <tswett> I wonder what determines whether or not a president becomes an initialism.
16:33:47 <tswett> Everyone knows about JFK and FDR.
16:34:03 <tswett> But who's heard of, say, BHO?
16:34:29 <tswett> President Bernard Hussein Oliver.
16:35:24 <b_jonas> tswett: well, FDR was very famous because of the world war, I believe
16:36:00 <tswett> I associate him primarily with the Great Depression.
16:37:21 <b_jonas> also, FDR is famous because he used to have a very famous square named of him in Budapest, the one at the Pest side of the Lánchíd, plus has a couple of other war-related monuments elsewhere in the city.
17:02:23 <tswett> Interesting output from the round 3000 version:
17:02:25 <tswett> 23:46:25: <fungot> `rul <backk
17:02:26 <tswett> 21:55:46: <HackEgo> "rwi28xxxx83�t"ieh__~d[n[in]])|[sprib=');
17:03:34 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: rul: not found
17:07:24 <tswett> Aha, it *did* learn the coins:
17:07:26 <tswett> 12:57:24: <HackEgo> ternacoin pdoccoin vercoin pointcoin iacoin raincoin deascoin erscoin %22xpcoin(concoin sh"libracoin bodycoin sulasmesologcoin negolaintecoin imbercoin byncoinclitciincoin ilagecoin bianneceincoin rordgcoin motancoin mbrecoin bunlogicoin mrgicoin 9pdgeccoin babilcoin ^masking signalify and matchenestingcoin vebbcccoin sinumcoin barggcoin dainecoin
17:07:26 <tswett> iscoin /ballellist/showd that instead of ‘mat’s’
17:07:42 <tswett> But it doesn't get the color rotation right.
17:08:21 <b_jonas> I don't know how you did it, but nice
17:10:30 <tswett> More nice output from the low temperature version:
17:10:32 <tswett> 19:11:29: <ais523> right, it shouldn't be a lot of the way to go anything that makes sentence, and figure out some more baming arguments
17:12:28 <tswett> It pretty much has a good handle on long words and now it seems to be starting to understand syntax a bit.
17:16:19 -!- jix has quit (Ping timeout: 244 seconds).
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17:43:45 * Taneb has received a letter from the landlord which misspelt every single tenants' name
17:45:12 <Taneb> With the classic "van Doom" for me
17:52:40 <Phantom_Hoover> bunlogicoin replaces the traditional cryptographic approach to electronic currency with bun logic
18:01:19 <fizzie> [2095966.189027] sd 2:0:0:0: [sdc] Very big device. Trying to use READ CAPACITY(16).
18:01:23 <fizzie> Come on, it's only 3 terabytes. That's not "very big" in this day and age.
18:02:45 <b_jonas> maybe you're using an old kernel or something
18:10:54 <tswett> Remind me why I'm using my laptop for all this heavy computation.
18:11:04 <fizzie> https://github.com/torvalds/linux/blob/HEAD/drivers/scsi/sd.c#L2150 <- still there.
18:23:08 -!- Tritonio has joined.
18:25:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Lucasieks]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43034&oldid=40025 * 73.184.106.177 * (+71) /* ():;#?! loops */ new section
18:30:41 <b_jonas> Question. If you take the pantheon of ancient greek gods, then which god is most suited as the patron god of programmers? Hephaistos is the god of engineers, so he's a candidate, but is he the most approperiate?
18:35:35 <Lyka> who's the one who pushed a huge boulder up a cliff;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
18:35:50 <Lyka> ignore the ';'s
18:39:57 <int-e> Yeah, modulo random spelling (Sisyphus).
18:41:07 <Tritonio> b_jonas Hephaistos was supposed to have created robots too so I guess he's the best bet.
18:46:42 <Lyka> okay, bad rush reference
18:47:44 <b_jonas> Tritonio: for robots and railways, definitely, but I'm not sure about programming. Were the robots intelligent? If so, were they driven by spirits, or by a clockwork construct brain?
18:49:13 <b_jonas> He is also definitely a hacker, according to the way he's catched her wife on cheating… hmm, how was that story?
18:49:42 <b_jonas> Lyka: Prometheus? Why him in particular? I don't know enough about mythology.
18:50:18 <b_jonas> Oh, I think Hephaistos has also made some funny throne for Zeus or something.
18:50:30 <Taneb> You could interpret Prometheus as a deity for open-source
18:52:19 <b_jonas> aha, apparently Prometheus has taught arts and crafts to humans (sort of like Aule)
18:55:01 <b_jonas> Plus Hephaistos has apparently made like most of the artifacts created by the greek gods.
18:55:58 <b_jonas> The most powerful of which is probably the Girdle of Aphrodite
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18:59:16 <b_jonas> (other names for search, Hephaestus, Vulcanus)
19:05:28 <b_jonas> Lyka: Vulcanus is the name of the corresponding deity in the Roman mythology
19:05:52 <b_jonas> and his wife Aphrodite is called Venus in roman
19:06:20 <b_jonas> Hephaestus is one of the crazy random English spellings
19:07:59 -!- hilquias has joined.
19:10:32 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: nah, there's a very easy and consistent way to write the names of Ancient Greek deities, which is to look up how they're spelled in the Odysseia or the Illiad and transliterate them. But the people using English don't care, and just use random transliteration for everything.
19:11:00 <Phantom_Hoover> that's an easy way to transliterate the way they're spelt in the odyssey, yes
19:11:35 <tswett> I think the round 4000 neural net pretty much has the local aspects of syntax down. It seems to do about as well as a Markov chain when it comes to syntax.
19:11:53 <b_jonas> Mind you, this isn't specific to the English language: journalists writing in Hungarian also use random crap to write proper names from arabic, korean, chinese, japanese, and other foreign languages.
19:12:18 -!- TieSoul has quit (Read error: Connection reset by peer).
19:12:21 <Phantom_Hoover> it has roughly no relevance to the equivalents of the names used in english
19:12:25 <b_jonas> They usually take random transliterations they find in English or other european language articles, and modify random letters in them.
19:12:44 <b_jonas> Without regards for the original name.
19:13:04 <Phantom_Hoover> it's great, i don't understand why people get so angry about it
19:13:52 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: the problem with it is that you often get five or more transliterated variants of the same names, and they usually don't even bother to attach the original name in parenthesis so you can't figure out which names refer to the same entity.
19:13:56 <Phantom_Hoover> languages are chaotic living things, you can't pin them down with formal specifications
19:13:57 <b_jonas> You can't search for them.
19:14:20 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: oh we sure can. We have formal rules for transliterating from most of the popular languages of the world.
19:15:14 <Phantom_Hoover> b_jonas, and you need only look at chinese to see how that doesn't really pan out in real life
19:15:51 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: we have rules for transliterating from Chinese too.
19:16:30 <Phantom_Hoover> which have changed in prominence quite a lot over the years
19:16:37 <b_jonas> It does work out for sane people, but not for journalists who generally don't care about the truth or usefulness of what they write, as long as they write it real fast.
19:18:18 <pikhq> Phantom_Hoover: There's rules for transliterating, but it's also common to utterly ignore it and make random shit up.
19:19:22 <pikhq> Of course, it gets even crazier when dealing with cultures where the person is likely to have a preferred Roman alphabet representation that may or may not be a valid transliteration at all.
19:20:07 <pikhq> e.g. Nisio Isin (NISHIO Ishin).
19:20:37 <Tritonio> b_jonas I think that Hephestus and Athena taught arts/healing etc to humans. Prometheus was the one who initially gave them the "fire" (literally and metaphorically probably) and got them out of the dark ages. Taneb's association with open-source is almost on spot. :-)
19:22:06 <pikhq> Or say Jackie Chan (Sing4 Lung4; Chéng Lóng; 成龍; 成龙).
19:22:13 <b_jonas> Tritonio: fire, but also other stuff. But yes, other gods have probably also taught them.
19:24:53 <b_jonas> Who invented writing systems or alphabets or abjads according to Greek Mythology? Or who taught it to mortals?
19:25:57 <Tritonio> never heard of anyone teaching them "letters" but promethius also gave them "knowledge" in general...
19:26:16 <b_jonas> it could be "writing", not specifically "letters"
19:26:47 <b_jonas> there's bound to be a greek myth, there's one in every other mythology
19:27:08 <Tritonio> as I understand it prometheus was the one who simply gave humanity what the gods had and humanity lacked. So he pretty much was the one who enabled them to stop been like other animals.
19:27:39 <Lyka> fire can be a metaphor
19:27:41 <b_jonas> I don't know if that includes writing though. I'm not even sure if the greek gods even used writing much.
19:27:52 <b_jonas> Lyka: sure, it's definitely not only fire that Prometheus gave them.
19:28:00 <b_jonas> but letters could be a later invention
19:28:08 <Tritonio> yes but it's also literal. fire is what allowed humans to stay awake at night and talk. and what allowed them to fear way less animals.
19:28:16 <b_jonas> the gods might not _need_ writing, because they're, like, immortal
19:28:18 <Tritonio> without fire humanity is like other animals.
19:28:45 <tswett> There are three nonlocal syntax errors I notice this neural net seeming to make: a sentence with the wrong number of verbs; a noun phrase that doesn't attach to anything; and a sentence which starts like a question and ends like a declarative, or vice versa.
19:29:04 <tswett> I look forward to seeing if it actually learns not to do those.
19:29:42 <tswett> Tritonio: I'm training a neural net using this guyfolk's program: https://karpathy.github.io/2015/05/21/rnn-effectiveness/
19:29:52 <b_jonas> tswett: how much specialized knowledge did you try to add to it?
19:29:56 <tswett> I'm training it on the logs from #esoteric.
19:30:09 <tswett> b_jonas: specialized knowledge? I just gave it the #esoteric logs and a couple of numbers.
19:30:27 <b_jonas> I mean domain-specific knowledge you hard-code, rather than make it learn
19:32:45 <tswett> I didn't write any code at all.
19:32:49 <Tritonio> tswett when you feed it latex it's like it's trying to generate something like the Voinich manuscript.
20:25:02 <b_jonas> Oh, it makes sense in hindsight. Forth compiled to x86 or x86_64 must use the stack pointer (ESP or RSP) to point to the return stack, not the data stack, because modern cpus have special support for predicting return targets perfectly if you use the CALL and RET instructions for them, whereas for the data stack, compiler optimizations together with cpu magic like register renaming makes handling the data stack just as efficient, if not more so, than if
20:25:15 <b_jonas> (truncated) whereas for the data stack, compiler optimizations together with cpu magic like register renaming makes handling the data stack just as efficient, if not more so, than if you used stack-specific instructions, and definitely more efficient than if you mixed the two.
20:49:21 <zzo38> Now I added Impulse Tracker into the wiki of AmigaMML.
20:49:33 <pikhq> b_jonas: Eh, not "must", but certainly "really should".
20:50:16 <pikhq> If you really felt like it you could use esp as a GP register, but it'd be dumb. :)
20:52:23 <b_jonas> using RSP as a general register isn't dumb, as long as you don't use it as an offset much. it's completely reasonable if you don't need RSP for anything else. it's representing the return stack in some other way that's dumb, because it will screw up branch target prediction, and compiled forth probably has lots of subroutine calls.
20:54:35 <pikhq> It's a terrible idea if you're expecting interrupts or signal handlers.
20:54:51 <pikhq> (because other code is going to use that as the stack)
20:54:55 <b_jonas> in x86_32 and x86_64, RSP works fine as a general register, if you consider four limitations: (1) encoding it as an offset is usually impossible, (2) mixing PUSH/POP operations with other ways to access RSP quickly can have a latency on some cpus, and (3) by default on most operating systems userspace, signals will start a stack frame on the stack at or somewhat below where ESP points to, so it can trash your stack, but you can disable this,
20:55:23 <pikhq> That condition is also true on a bare system with interrupt handlers.
20:55:32 <pikhq> Of course in either case you can work around it.
20:55:34 <b_jonas> and (4) I think in some cases in privilaged mode in systems code, you can't use an alternate stack for interrupt handlers at all (you can for user mode).
20:55:50 <pikhq> It's *tricky* but totally doable.
20:56:38 <b_jonas> The problem is that x86_32 has too few general registers (also too few vector registers), and very rarely you can run out of them even on x86_64, so in some tight loops it _can_ be worth to take the extra steps to use RSP for something else.
20:57:46 <b_jonas> However, it's worth only after you also free up RBP and the register holding the PIC-helper pointer.
20:58:04 <b_jonas> Recent compilers can automatically do the latter two actually.
20:59:31 <pikhq> Yeah, freeing up RBP is pretty standard, freeing up the PIC pointer is sadly really new stuff.
21:00:13 <b_jonas> Gcc allegedly 5 does some crazy optimization stuff, including sometimes spilling locals from general registers to vector registers instead of the stack, which is a brilliant stroke in retrospect.
21:00:19 <pikhq> (I have no idea why you wouldn't just put that into register allocation with an ABI requirement that it be in there across translation unit boundaries)
21:01:09 <b_jonas> Of course, you have to be careful with that, because even on x86, moving between general purpose and vector registers can have a large latency, in at least one direction.
21:03:48 <b_jonas> Sometimes I think the current naming scheme is wrong, and the vector registers should be called "general purpose" or "data" registers, and the general purpose registers called "index" or "counter" registers.
21:05:20 <b_jonas> Sort of like how X and Y are index or counter registers on the 6502 because you can do fewer arithmetic on them than on the general purpose A register.
21:08:13 <Lyka> why am i still connected to my bouncer?
21:10:28 <Lyka> i mean, why is my irssi window still open
21:10:57 <oren> irssi window? you mean the terminal?
21:10:59 <Lyka> why did i not close irssi
21:11:36 <Lyka> this is wht i should have done hours ago:
21:11:40 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
21:13:04 <oren> I don't see how renaming yourself helps?
21:13:50 <oren> \nick orin|away
21:13:53 -!- oren has changed nick to orin|away.
21:14:22 -!- orin|away has changed nick to oren.
21:15:10 -!- Weloxux has quit (Quit: Leaving).
21:17:35 <tswett> I assume that's not the only thing Lyka did.
21:18:41 <oren> maybe she has hooks into irssi to change her name on SIGHUP
21:22:50 <tswett> I think, but I'm not sure, that the neural net is beginning to understand question marks.
21:23:11 <tswett> There seems to be a tendency for questions to end with question marks, and for non-questions not to end with question marks.
21:24:57 <int-e> oren: it could also be some sort of irc bouncer
21:25:15 <int-e> still this idea of changing nicks when away is annoying.
21:25:25 <b_jonas> int-e: he specifically said "connected to my bouncer", yes
21:26:00 <int-e> irc even has a /away command for the purpose :-/
21:26:59 <zzo38> If you use WHOIS or PRIVMSG send message to them then the AWAY is checked by the 301 line.
21:27:08 <tswett> It *might* be learning not to do unattached noun phrases, but that seems unlikely. It's doing really well with parentheses.
21:27:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: is it for a private message? I didn't know that
21:27:38 <Taneb> In the spirit of the Eurovision song contest, I'm not going paying for my alcohol
21:27:44 <b_jonas> I thought you'd just get the away status from a WHO and then follow it from AWAY messages,
21:28:08 <int-e> "With the AWAY message, clients can set an automatic reply string forany PRIVMSG commands directed at them (not to a channel they are on). The automatic reply is sent by the server to client sending the PRIVMSG command. The only replying server is the one to which the sending client is connected to."
21:28:20 <b_jonas> and presumably you have to WHO everyone newly joining if you want to follow that
21:28:32 <b_jonas> I don't think it's worth the bother, I don't care about away status really
21:28:46 <b_jonas> int-e: ah, so that's what it's for, right
21:29:00 <int-e> the point is, unless you're privately messaging somebody, you're unlilely to care...
21:29:44 <b_jonas> I don't set away status this days.
21:30:26 <b_jonas> It's useless because even if I'm not away I don't read everything nor answer to everything.
21:30:51 <tswett> It also understands that the first digit of the timestamp rarely changes.
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21:44:08 <fizzie> A number of channels plain forbid public away messages and nick changes.
21:48:01 <Phantom_Hoover> i've been in channels with people who have scripts set up that post messages saying exactly how long they've been away for
21:48:53 * int-e has been away for 199214411ns, changing his nick.
21:48:54 <oren> you're so vain, you probably think this away message is about you
21:49:17 <Taneb> Reminds me I was in a quite active mailing list with someone who set up an "I am on holiday" autoreply
21:49:45 <Taneb> Then got back and complained about how high-traffic the mailing list was
21:50:16 <oren> if several people did that, it could cause, uh, problems
21:50:47 <oren> > I'm away >> I'm away >>> I'm away
21:50:49 <lambdabot> Not in scope: data constructor ‘I'm’ Precedence parsing error
21:50:49 <lambdabot> cannot mix ‘>>’ [infixl 1] and ‘>>>’ [infixr 1] in the same infix ex...
21:51:14 <int-e> lambdabot: nice error, thanks.
21:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> (i didn't know about email storms about recently, reading the wp article and linked articles was hilarious)
21:52:04 <int-e> hmm, are there any email to wikipedia gateways?
21:52:24 <int-e> (where, say, emails get appended to a wikipedia talk page automatically...)
21:55:27 <oren> The resulting storm of 'unsubscribe', 'me-too' requests, sarcastic facepalm images and recipes for broccoli casserole resulted in
21:56:10 -!- nortti has changed nick to rjunhrak.
21:56:23 -!- rjunhrak has changed nick to nortti.
21:56:59 -!- nortti has changed nick to nortiecat.
21:57:41 -!- nortiecat has changed nick to nortti.
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22:31:27 <Taneb> This is a really close Eurovision
22:31:50 <Taneb> Normally there is a clear winner again
22:33:04 <Taneb> Although Sweden has now jumped ahead of Russia
22:33:17 -!- rdococ has joined.
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22:46:12 <fizzie> But they did call it later than usual.
22:46:53 <fizzie> I don't really really understand why Russia got that many votes.
22:47:16 <fizzie> Or Italy, for that matter
22:47:40 <Taneb> I quite liked Italy's
22:47:46 <Taneb> (in fact, I voted for it)
22:47:51 <fizzie> I mean, nothing wrong with their shows, but they weren't so remarkable either.
22:48:43 <fizzie> I don't think I've ever voted, so I'm not technically entitled to an opinion, though.
22:49:16 <fizzie> I liked the background video stuff Sweden had.
22:49:38 <fizzie> The BBC guy doesn't seem terribly happy about the UK score.
22:50:16 <Taneb> But hey, we beat France again
22:50:32 <Taneb> fizzie, we've never won with him commentating
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22:51:00 <fizzie> When did you last win?
22:51:46 <fizzie> The "big five" were all quite far down on the list, with the exception of Italy.
22:53:56 <fizzie> (We didn't even make it to the final.)
22:54:18 -!- oren has joined.
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22:57:12 <zzo38> Can you tell me if you think I missed anything in this description of rules of Pandante game? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/sirlin/pandante/rules
22:57:19 <zzo38> (The variant rules are in a separate file, and is not completed yet.)
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23:32:50 <Lyka> what kind of language has this code: !A048A149P000P100Q000@
23:32:59 <Lyka> and gives this output: HI
23:34:42 <Lyka> is my attempt at making an interpreter for the arduino pathetic enough?
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23:36:06 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/jGJX8A6D
23:38:35 <Lyka> oerjan: to get it to output the two characters "HI", i used the code: !A048A149P000P100Q000@
23:40:02 <tswett> What are the ASCII codes for H and I?
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23:42:40 <Lyka> five commands wer given: Assign 0x48 to cache byte 0, Assign 0x49 to cache byte 1, Output cache byte 0 to terminal, Output cache byte 1 to terminal, Quit
23:43:59 <Lyka> P only uses one argument, Q uses none, but still had to give all three arguments to each command
23:44:52 <Lyka> P000Q000 could in theory be simplfied to P0Q, but that is n the future
23:44:55 <tswett> Word that the neural net invented: "shitation"
23:45:36 <Lyka> so, is my language making any sense yet?
23:46:17 <Lyka> i haven't added arithmetic yet
23:47:45 <Lyka> A002A102+012H200 would output "04"
23:48:17 <Lyka> +012 being: a[2]=a[0]+a[1]
23:48:47 <Lyka> and H200 being same as P200 but outputting in hex
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23:49:33 <oren> how many bytes does the cache hae?
23:49:34 <Lyka> H command and arithmetic command come next
23:49:39 <tswett> Some of the latest neural net output:
23:49:41 <tswett> 13:14:59: <oerjan> i've never heard of the north
23:49:41 <tswett> 15:07:53: <int-e> so far
23:49:41 <tswett> 13:14:07: <oerjan> argh
23:50:09 <tswett> I'll try not to spam the channel with these too much from here on out.
23:50:33 <Lyka> *arithmetic commands
23:50:51 <Lyka> the memory has 256 bytes
23:51:10 <Lyka> but you have to move things into cache to use them
23:52:32 <Lyka> mae any sense so far?
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23:53:56 <Lyka> understand i am trying to make this complex enough to make a game in
23:54:18 <Sgeo> Is #ubuntu the only correct place to ask for ecryptfs help?
23:54:51 <Lyka> Sgeo: why ask here?
23:55:29 <Sgeo> This is the IRC help channel, right?
23:56:08 <Sgeo> IRC is a rather esoteric medium, so yes
23:58:14 <Lyka> oh, sorry. eye-rolling is genetic in my family
00:03:05 * Lyka realizes that Sgeo knows em.
00:03:31 * Lyka tries to be nicer
00:03:41 * Sgeo was being a bit silly
00:03:52 <Sgeo> I asked here because I treat this place as a social area a lot
00:04:15 <Lyka> why not ask in #ubuntu?
00:04:48 <Sgeo> I did, no response. Though it was more about asking if ecryptfs questions were acceptable there, than it was an actual question
00:05:45 * oren doesnt know what ecryotfs is.
00:06:03 <Sgeo> It's the encrypted filesystem that Ubuntu uses when you encrypt your home
00:06:29 <Sgeo> Synology also seems to have some support, not sure if it's really sufficient
00:06:31 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/jGJX8A6D
00:07:41 <Lyka> Sgeo: did you see the language i am making?
00:10:06 <oerjan> Sgeo: i shall put forward the theory that ecryptfs questions are acceptable, but that #ubuntu has a strict "don't ask to ask" policy, and you're now stonewalled forever. hth.
00:10:08 <Sgeo> Saw the impl but didn't read though it closely
00:17:18 <oerjan> Sgeo: i have confirmed my theory by noting that https://wiki.ubuntu.com/IRC/Guidelines links to http://www.sabi.co.uk/Notes/linuxHelpAsk.html hth
00:20:39 <oren> That faq is a bit aggressive
00:21:07 <oren> Don't ask "anyone/someone knows" questions ... the obvious aim of the question is to find someone to be your bitch.
00:21:22 <oren> um, projecting much
00:22:30 <oren> Then again, they may be channelling the living soul of Linus Torvalds
00:23:17 <oerjan> or they may have decades of experience that people do _exactly_ that hth
00:43:07 <oerjan> * Melvar wonders how one would base a neural net on beer … <-- now i'm imagining fungot as yeast-based...
00:43:07 <fungot> oerjan: iii) e is still the electee to the agreement to be changed as explicitly described in the
00:44:14 <oren> Is there a unix command that inverts the od command?
00:45:18 <oren> or more specifically od -x?
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00:47:01 <oren> oh, apparently I can use the "xxd" command
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01:03:40 <Lyka> did you try piping through tac?
01:05:43 <Lyka> does this code mean anything to you? !A000G100[01_P100G100]01_Q000@
01:06:25 <zzo38> Not quite, but, maybe we can learn.
01:06:54 <Lyka> A000 G100 [01_ P100 G100 ]01_ Q000
01:07:15 <Lyka> Assign 0x00 to a[0]
01:07:40 <Lyka> Get char from terminal and assign it to a[1]
01:08:08 <Lyka> while a[0] != a[1] {
01:08:26 <Lyka> Print char in a[1]
01:08:30 <Lyka> Get char from terminal and assign it to a[1]
01:09:00 <Lyka> } wend unless a[0] != a[1]
01:09:27 <Lyka> hard to notate the loop
01:10:31 <Lyka> does this seem worth pursuing?
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01:13:31 <Lyka> i called it mindfuck (as it is based around the code of a brainfuck interpreter), but that name is probably already taken
01:14:05 <oren> check the wiki? http://esolang.org
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01:14:47 <oren> nope, not taken
01:14:47 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/dZR0uVKC
01:15:10 <Lyka> i'm not using that name, though
01:15:43 <Lyka> i don't think i want to deprive someone of it
01:16:09 <Lyka> well, is it a good name for this?
01:17:55 <Lyka> fourfuck ? (as it uses four-character commands)
01:17:56 <oren> i'm not a nomenclatur...ologist? is that a word? well I'm not one, anyway.
01:18:27 <boily> helloren. don't be afraid of creative orthography. it's good for you, event if naysayers may deny it.
01:18:36 * boily looks at oerjan subtly
01:18:54 <boily> Hellyka. are you Lymia in disguise?
01:19:39 <Lyka> boily: is that at me?
01:20:38 <boily> yes. sorry for portmanthelloing you without warning.
01:21:06 <Lyka> i'm SchrodingersCat in disguise
01:21:11 <oren> not being a nomenclaturologist makes be unqualificationed to decide whether those are words
01:21:31 <Lyka> fourfuck it is
01:21:47 <boily> Lyka: then I need to ask you the The Question: what are your approximate coördinates and body weigh?
01:21:58 <boily> (meanwhile, hellørjan! how's the weekend?)
01:22:40 <oerjan> boily: tired with traces of neck pain
01:23:50 <boily> Lyka: it's a standard question. the information given is of vital importance. (you can creatively reply, as is the custom of this channel.)
01:24:58 <zzo38> There are other question we can ask too though such as, how many bibles you have stolen (use Roman numerals)?
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01:25:21 <oren> boily: I'm pretty sure I just answered truthfully
01:25:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Lesidhetree * New user account
01:26:48 <boily> oren: yes. it is also common. people here seem to be split in two groups.
01:27:03 <boily> zzo38: is there a Roman zero?
01:27:08 <Lyka> central new york, 100
01:27:32 <zzo38> boily: I don't know!
01:28:01 <zzo38> But I do not expect you can write zero with Roman numerals. (They might have other words for it but I don't think those are Roman numerals)
01:28:02 <oren> Maybe N for "Nullius""
01:28:48 <boily> oren: weird, I don't have your infos...
01:29:16 <Lyka> i'm lesidhetree pretty much everywhere i am not something different
01:29:38 <Lyka> SchodingersCat is my ic account
01:29:39 <boily> Lyka: filing you as Lyka. less letter to type.
01:30:00 <oren> 3.6559769,-79.4141707 155 pounds
01:30:05 <Lyka> just saying who the lesidhetree that just signed up was
01:30:07 <Sgeo> Hating ecryptfs more and more
01:30:18 <oren> ** 43.6559769,-79.4141707 155 pounds
01:30:55 <Lyka> 100 kg is not 155 lbs...
01:31:07 <Lyka> i wish i was 155 lbs
01:31:30 <Lyka> hopefully soon to be less
01:31:36 <zzo38> And, there is even more other Question too, such as, do you like mathematics?
01:31:41 <oerjan> oren: i think nullius is genitive case, probably not the right one here
01:31:59 <Sgeo> I have a question that would be appropriate for #ubuntu but the question itself is inappropriate
01:32:00 <zzo38> And also do you like Dungeons&Dragons game and All The Tropes wiki?
01:32:24 <zzo38> Sgeo: If you want te answer you might as well ask anyways; here if not there.
01:32:25 <oren> From Wiki^H^H^H^H WP, About 725, Bede or one of his colleagues used the letter N, the initial of nulla, in a table of epacts, all written in Roman numerals.[32]
01:32:37 <zzo38> Lyka: No, All The Tropes is a forked version of TV Tropes
01:32:48 <boily> zzo38: yes, maths are quite nice.
01:32:56 <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork?
01:32:58 <zzo38> oren: O, OK, thanks, now we can know!
01:33:01 <Lyka> i used to be good at maths
01:33:01 <Sgeo> Ok. Were the ecryptfs implementors drunk and/or high?
01:33:10 <Lyka> then i got drugged
01:33:30 <Lyka> (prescription)
01:33:30 <zzo38> boily: Yes. I don't like the tvtropes and neither does Damian Yerrick and neither does the people who made All The Tropes that is why it is fork. I work on the All The Tropes instead of the TV Tropes, please.
01:34:10 <oren> Sgeo: quite possibly. it's an open source project, so they don't have corporate drug testing
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01:34:46 <Lyka> i use bitocker on linux
01:34:47 <boily> zzo38: but, but... who's Damian Yerrick? why is tvtropes bad?
01:34:50 <oren> and they can work from home, so they can drink since they don't need to drive
01:34:55 <Sgeo> http://pastie.org/private/scupeuev4zobaguy17ue6q
01:35:24 <oerjan> <oren> ** 43.6559769,-79.4141707 155 pounds <-- i was wondering what you were doing near galapagos
01:35:26 <oren> woooooooowww.....
01:35:46 <oren> Sgeo that is pretty screwy
01:36:12 <Sgeo> ls -la on the NAS in .purple's parent directory doesn't show it, but at least I can get into .purple itself
01:36:25 <Lyka> read that as NSA
01:37:37 <boily> oh well. time to disappear.
01:37:42 -!- boily has quit (Quit: NOODLY CHICKEN).
01:38:47 <zzo38> boily: One thing is the license they change it
01:39:00 <zzo38> It isn't important here who Damian Yerrick is.
01:41:17 <oerjan> <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork? <-- there's a good argument that tvtropes has totally messed up a licensing change and is basically in massive copyright violation for everything before the change. also they deleted a lot of stuff for PC reasons. thus, forks. although i still visit tvtropes myself.
01:41:48 <zzo38> I don't; I prefer All The Tropes, which however seem don't quite work right now.
01:41:57 <oerjan> @tell boily <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork? <-- there's a good argument that tvtropes has totally messed up a licensing change and is basically in massive copyright violation for everything before the change. also they deleted a lot of stuff for PC reasons. thus, forks. although i still visit tvtropes myself.
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01:42:10 <oerjan> bloody abrupt out-chickener
01:42:11 <zzo38> But anyways, my All The Tropes is: http://allthetropes.orain.org/wiki/User:Zzo38
01:43:32 <oren> I used to read TVtropes in highschool, but in university I cut out a lot of internet things that were taking up my time and that was one
01:43:44 <Lyka> damn...gotta take meds
01:44:25 <zzo38> When it is fixed, then you can access it even to see the level20.tex that I made up; I also made up the RDF of the tropes of level20.tex but maybe it is a bit mistake because some of them it says is straight and I am not quite sure if it is straight or not.
01:44:54 <zzo38> The RDF of the tropes is still available though: http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope
01:47:17 <zzo38> (I did write a program that can parse this file, but several other programs are also available.)
01:48:37 <oren> I think when I stopped using TVtropes they had suddenly renamed amny tropes whose names were in Japanese)
01:49:47 <zzo38> Maybe; I don't know.
01:50:18 <oerjan> oren: oh right renamings too
01:51:04 <zzo38> You can tell me if you think it is straight, sideways, etc, or if there is other tropes to add in there; I will add it to the RDF even if I cannot add it to the wiki yet.
02:01:01 <zzo38> Also, the wiki software used with TV Tropes isn't as good; MediaWiki is better. And, All The Tropes doesn't need to have advertising and other stuff get in the way.
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02:15:44 <oren> For the newest version of scrip7, I'm adding the abily to mmap files into the data space
02:17:29 <Lyka> this outputs the alphabet: !A001G100G200[12[P100+011]12[Q000@AZ
02:18:21 <Lyka> is this too confusing?
02:18:46 <oren> I *think* i understan how that works
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02:19:43 <oren> [12[ is while a[1] < a[2], correct?
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02:20:05 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/weU2zgTu
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02:20:30 <Lyka> [12[ is while a[1] <= a[2]
02:20:47 <Lyka> [12< is while a[1] < a[2]
02:22:40 <Lyka> somehow i am supposed to be able to run a simple game (guess a number?) in this code on a device with 2K of ram
02:23:30 <Lyka> well, i'm planning on having a sdcard reader attached for something that big
02:28:58 <Lyka> and a serial conneection to an arduino-based gam controller
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02:58:18 <Lyka> found weird coding in an area i haven't tested yet
03:02:25 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTBlKRzNf74
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03:03:11 <Lyka> would have triggered a recursive loop had i not fixed it
03:03:18 <zzo38> What kind of interpretation of quantum is OK? There is many different kind, but I prefer, constraint interpretation and I don't like the other one much. However I believe that it must be figure out the proper way to combine quantum physics with general relativity (or else to figure out if something is already wrong with it and should be adjusted), too.
03:03:46 <zzo38> But Penrose also prefer another different kind of interpretation, and so do other people prefer different kind.
03:05:28 <zzo38> What is your opinion? Do you don't like constraint interpretation or you do like or whta else?
03:07:20 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/PrH4E6ta
03:10:46 <oren> I prefer the ensemble interpretation... It is the most empirical
03:11:37 <zzo38> Let me to look up what that one means; I forgot.
03:13:28 <zzo38> Now I looked it up.
03:15:59 <oren> Basically, it means that since our experiments that observe quantum effects are done by preparing many very similar systems, separated by space or time, we can't empirically say that quantum mechanical effects apply to single systems.
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03:21:52 <oerjan> i don't think the interpretation i prefer has been invented yet.
03:22:27 <oerjan> imo only interpretations that avoid putting hilbert space and complex numbers in a priori need apply
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03:24:06 <oerjan> they should be emergent, like classical probability is emergent.
03:24:39 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/t0NNvGwm
03:24:47 <Lyka> that's it for the night
03:25:25 <oerjan> (disclaimer: i haven't read enough interpretations to be absolutely _sure_ it hasn't been invented, but on the other hand i think if it had, it would have a great enough following that i would have heard about it.)
03:26:54 <Lyka> please let me know if you think what i am making it a stupid wast of tie
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03:28:41 <oerjan> i think if that's a concern you shouldn't be doing esolangs :P
03:28:45 <Jafet> It's actually a continuous cellular automaton with lie symmetry where the cells are folded projections of superstrings. Each cell stores an integer between -128 and 127...
03:30:31 <zzo38> I think I invented the constraint interpretation
03:32:11 <zzo38> Because, I don't quite like the other one.
03:35:17 <Lyka> oerjan: !A074A179P000P100Q000@
03:36:42 <Lyka> or is it !A074P000A079P000Q000@ ?
03:36:48 <zzo38> Universe are made out of mathematics, and some mathematics are multiple solution and/or no solution in some circumstances, but still must be constraint by physical systems. It is the part of working of "constraint interpretation"
03:37:53 <Lyka> oerjan: i was trying to say "ty"
03:38:41 <Lyka> who was the person who said we re all star-stuff?
03:39:00 <Lyka> (or was that Delenn?)
03:40:36 <Lyka> anyone who does not know who Delenn is needs to watch more Babylon 5.
03:41:41 <oerjan> i vaguely remembered it
03:42:22 <oerjan> i watched some babylon 5 back in 1996 when i was spending that half-year in the us
03:44:04 * Lyka runs the nightly backup before he or she falls asleep
03:44:15 <oerjan> i was guessing sagan but apparently it goes back further http://quoteinvestigator.com/2013/06/22/starstuff/
03:44:46 * Lyka guessed sagan too
03:45:07 <oerjan> also https://esolangs.org/wiki/Perl
03:45:16 * Lyka figures that JMS (the guy who made B5) was quoting Sagan
03:45:28 <Lyka> Perl is an esolang?
03:45:47 <zzo38> Not quite, but they do have stuff to mention there
03:45:50 <oerjan> Lyka: no but people seemed to like my poetry interpretation
03:46:42 <Lyka> perl poetry can be esolang i assume
03:47:02 <Lyka> in the same way that obfuscated c is
03:47:43 <Lyka> is this a work of art: ":(){:|:;};:"?
03:48:11 <Lyka> (do not type it into a sh prompt)
03:48:35 <Lyka> (seriosly, don't. it will crash your pc)
03:48:59 <Lyka> (and don't type it into someone else's either)
03:50:08 <Lyka> i just thought it was pretty
03:50:33 <tswett> I'm gonna go to bed. Allow me to quote one last piece of output from the neural net (consisting of two lines):
03:50:44 <tswett> 23:35:40: <oerjan> `quote directive repo
03:50:45 <tswett> 23:38:17: <HackEgo> structures: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of mord int information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page>. (For the other kind of
03:50:45 <tswett> esoterica, try # * (+1)
03:51:36 <tswett> Yep, HackEgo, you sure did a good job of running the command "`quote directive repo".
03:52:03 <tswett> The last time I ran it, it printed out this:
03:52:03 <oerjan> i think that quote must have been deleted hth
03:52:18 <tswett> -> 5 -> ##############################################################################################################################
03:52:36 <Lyka> `quote directive repo
03:52:40 <tswett> All of the output from there on consisted of pound signs, except that there was one single underscore in the middle somewhere.
03:52:42 <HackEgo> 323) <fizzie> You make a fist, shake it at the sky, and shout "why, GNU, why?!" -- that is the standard reportig practice. \ 448) <Phantom_Hoover> Riots in Glasgow would probably be reported as a sudden drop in crime. \ 743) <ion> 99 bugs in the bug tracker, 99 reports of bugs. Take one down and commit a fix, 106 bugs in the bug tracker. \ 855) <Gr
03:52:46 <Lyka> `quote directive
03:52:53 <oerjan> i _think_ HackEgo can survive a fork bomb but i'm a little afraid of trying with the shitty server it has nowadays
03:54:32 <oerjan> (i think possibly it limits number of subprocesses)
03:54:53 <oerjan> or was that just EgoBot
03:58:45 <Lyka> crap...typo detected that makes my program useless
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04:02:09 <oren> `quote forkbomb
04:02:14 <HackEgo> 1025) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
04:02:18 <HackEgo> 1025) <Jafet> Is there a debian package for making lousy debian forks
04:03:29 <oren> tswett: "pound sign" <- I don't call # that. I call it the hash sign or pronounce it "hashtag" for troll purposes
04:04:24 <HackEgo> 83) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
04:06:04 -!- variable has changed nick to trout.
04:17:22 <Lyka> made a printout of the program
04:19:22 <oerjan> `` quote 83 | sed 's/.{40}//'
04:19:23 <HackEgo> 83) <Gregor> Well yeah, but furthermore unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor
04:19:30 <zzo38> Do you know how to figure out the music of a record by the visual inspection of the grooves only, not by the label and so on?
04:19:38 <oerjan> `` quote 83 | sed 's/.\{40\}//'
04:19:40 <HackEgo> unlike, oh, say, an Apple product, you don't have to sign their "we own your sperm" license agreement to GET that SDK and the requisite libraries. ... <Gregor> pikhq: Sure, but it's the only way Apple could get a first-born-son clause into a modern licensing agreement without infringing child or slave labor laws.
04:20:20 -!- Lyka has changed nick to Lyka|Away.
04:21:14 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +2
04:21:15 <HackEgo> 186) <elliott> clue is a language for beauty, not usefulness <elliott> or ability to run at all <oklopol> ability to run at all is not even close to a design goal, no \ 250) <fungot> oerjan: are you in an aware state when the only hammer you have is for variable assignation and blocks \ 332) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit
04:21:40 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +4
04:21:41 <HackEgo> 332) [after a long string of Lymia getting lambdabot to spit out huge, meaningless type signatures] <Lymia> I need to learn more Haskell... <CakeProphet> ..I need to get op privs. \ 647) <Phantom_Hoover> Just because you can't design a reliable Monopoly machine out of chocolate doesn't mean nobody else can. \ 683) <fizzie> [...] and then you just
04:22:16 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +6
04:22:16 <HackEgo> 683) <fizzie> [...] and then you just shuffle the integral signs around a bit and hope no mathematicians notice. \ 687) <kmc> has there been any work towards designing programming languages specifically for stoned people \ 751) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intenti
04:22:33 <oerjan> `` quote sign | tail -n +8
04:22:34 <HackEgo> 751) <pikhq> I vastly prefer "a blind idiot god". <quintopia> pikhq: to what? <pikhq> To the idea of someone actually intentionally designing a mouse. \ 779) <zzo38> But I still sign by my pens and use extra dots and shapes and so on so that I can claim I was threatened to sign it and put those dots there to warn you, or whatever \ 816) <fizzie>
04:33:53 <zzo38> I think I read somewhere, some physicists were trying to invent the device to communicate with ghosts but instead they invented quantum information theories? There are many instances where some people tried to invent one thing and instead invented a different thing (I think I have a book listing some of them), but this seem a bit strange way. Nevertheless it is still probably possible that someone can try such a strange thing and invent something el
04:41:22 <zzo38> I doubt anyone can really invent the device to communicate with ghosts; if it is possible at all, it seems that a device is not needed. The other possibility is there is no ghost, or else that it is really something else also that is unknown.
04:42:22 <zzo38> On a television show once, one child was claim to see and talk to a ghost but nobody else can see it; three different people had three different opinion what it is. The last one though, is a scientifically testable hypothesis because it is involving infrared and this can be tested to see if it is wrong or not.
04:42:57 <zzo38> But then you must also consider, can people change their color of vision by age and using what ways? Surely such a thing would have been studied?
04:47:33 <zzo38> Some people discuss paralell universes (probably unrelated to the above though, but who knows for sure?). One question to figure out is, can a wavefunction including multiple universes?
04:56:12 <zzo38> But this would also have to do with geometry and numbers of dimensions. Are there additional small timelike dimensions, or only spacelike?
05:03:01 <zzo38> I believe that the laws of physics *must* be made out of mathematics, no matter how strange they might be.
05:28:12 <zzo38> I do know one person who doesn't wear a watch because when she did it would go too fast, and she other electrical problems like too. I have read this before in books but did not know how true such things can be until seeing it.
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05:32:59 <Jafet> Maybe it's a wristwatch that displays one's biological clock
05:33:26 <zzo38> Do such wristwatches exist though?
05:34:14 <oerjan> did she buy it in a shop that wasn't there the previous day or the next?
05:34:33 <zzo38> No, it was an ordinary watch, and the same thing happened to other watches.
05:35:25 <zzo38> (Maybe one was bought in a shop that wasn't there the previous day or the next, but this is highly unlikely and even if true this information would have been lost.)
05:35:44 * oerjan now imagines a parallel earth which is identical in most respect but with a slightly shorter day length, and occasionally watches slip through
05:36:22 <Jafet> Don't you see, oerjan, this is where leap seconds come from.
05:37:24 <oerjan> also, people there keep wondering why they get extra socks in their laundry
05:39:00 <zzo38> I do not know if parallel universes exist, but these ideas you mention seem unlikely. Still it is possible to might explain something, but probably not those things.
05:42:05 <zzo38> I know of someone who said she had a dream where she could know on what day someone died far away actually in a few hours after the dream (I trust what she says). I did have many explanations in mind but after hearing the full story concluded that none of them worked, except for the possibility of misremembering due to confusion of dreaming, which still seems a bit unlikely here but might possibly still work.
05:47:39 <zzo38> I once observed, while standing in the room opposite the washroom, an object sitting on the toilet (the part you don't open/close; it had been there a few days already) suddenly slipped off and fell onto the floor, making noise. There was no window open, no fans on, and nobody in that room. Possibly it is due to turbulence or microorganisms or spiders or something...I don't know.
05:50:15 <zzo38> Some might say it is similar to poltergeists, but to me there is several problems with that: [1] It only happened once. [2] It doesn't explain much if you don't even know what is poltergeists. [3] I am more inclined to consider other more ordinary possibilities first before strange things like that. [4] I am not even so sure there are any poltergeists.
05:52:11 <MDude> I would think it's a cat.
05:52:26 <zzo38> There was no cat in there. If there was though, it would certainly explain it.
05:53:48 <zzo38> But I know that spider can make some web and possibly something can cause such attach thing to move a bit; and in unlikely circumstances might cause what is said there. I of course don't know how well such thing would actually work though; it is just some kind of guess.
05:56:21 <zzo38> My own opinion is that these things I reported must be published so that people can argue about it and can complain about it.
05:56:56 <zzo38> (My comments about it is part of the argument about it, too.)
05:58:52 <MDude> Maybe there was a low rumble of some sort that justled it just right?
05:59:05 <zzo38> Yes, something like earthquakes maybe
05:59:12 <zzo38> That is the other possibility.
05:59:52 <zzo38> But I think earthquakes tend to move more things usually, but still that does seem a reasonable possibility.
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06:01:46 <MDream> Cisten lids are kind of odd, all bumpy and slippery.
06:01:59 <MDream> It's hard to tell when something's going to slide on them.
06:02:27 <zzo38> I did not think so at first because nothing else like that happened at the time and nothing else like that was reported. It also didn't happen before or after that time, even though the object was sitting there for a few days.
06:02:55 <zzo38> But yes it does seem more likely for an object to slide just because of the kind of surface it is; I did consider that too actually.
06:04:03 <zzo38> On most other surfaces in the house, objects placed there for a few days are less likely to slide.
06:04:47 <zzo38> But maybe also the water inside of the toilet...I know sometimes when the water is turn on in kitchen sink and bathroom sink and so on, sometimes it is a bit erratic.
06:06:21 <zzo38> It was sitting there just fine for a few days; nobody used the toilet recently but the door was open and from a room across the hall I could observe that. Therefore, I do not know if it is best explanation but at least, any of these thing may be possible.
06:07:45 <zzo38> I do know of small earthquakes making a few objects slide off of a shelf, and have observed this; but this is when the earthquake was reported. However, maybe such earthquake is just too small to have any effect on ordinary surfaces.
06:09:06 <zzo38> And, therefore was not detected either.
06:11:04 <zzo38> But, then, you must have the way to detect by the devices designed for this purpose. Yet, we could not detect it even with such devices in the same house (but they may have been too far away from the toilet room??? or the device was defective??)
06:12:27 <zzo38> It dose still seem probably the most likely to me though, despite this.
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06:15:05 <zzo38> Nevertheless, I have never observed it at all at any other times (an object on the toilet slipping like that, I mean!), even indirectly (such as door closed), even with the fan on, window open, etc. But maybe it is too unlikely; I don't know how to calculate such probabilities of such things.
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06:21:13 <zzo38> I have read a report about a man named Home was levitating, and that trustworthy people reported and scientists of the time found no fraud; an illustration is provided. However, it look to me from the illustration that he was holding some hooks on the ceiling which are difficult to see, but, that doesn't explain how to get up there at first anyways. (Of course, just because they found no fraud at the time doesn't necessarily mean there isn't any, bu
06:23:08 <zzo38> (Nor does it mean the story is or is not entirely fictional, of course.)
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08:39:53 <b_jonas> oerjan: extra socks => http://qntm.org/socks
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09:12:30 <tswett> Wisdom from the neural net:
09:12:33 <tswett> 20:39:09: <ais523> if a class program file. well, that's cheating until we see that they'd be called esolangs
09:14:36 <tswett> I wonder if the neural net has a generic "a bot was invoked" neuron.
09:15:05 <tswett> In these logs, someone did a !bfjoust command, to which lambdabot responded "Consider it noted."
09:20:59 <tswett> I think this is the longest syntactically correct sentence I've seen the net generate yet:
09:21:11 <tswett> 'I'm using it up to "there are many commands" as a similar language, the other one is all the experience of the contents.'
09:21:30 <tswett> Granted, the comma should be a semicolon, but using a comma there is the sort of thing a human would do.
09:21:59 <b_jonas> tswett: right, it doesn't have to generate correct sentences, but sentences we use on the channel
09:29:51 <oerjan> imo should be easy hth
09:31:14 <tswett> It does frequently produce messages ending with "hth".
09:31:47 <tswett> Whelp, I think the syntax seems to be getting better, but it's getting better really slowly.
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09:42:14 <tswett> I'm not sure if a size 300 state vector is large enough for the net to get syntax correct *and* also do everything else it's trying to do at the same time.
09:44:10 <tswett> Well, probably not. I guess English syntax is pretty complicated.
09:44:28 <tswett> It's also probabilistic. Lots and lots of things are "marginally correct".
10:00:53 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/ycwECkwx
10:02:22 <Lyka> and http://pastebin.com/TKYPGQXi
10:03:57 <Lyka> and also this: http://pastebin.com/ebdQS25X
10:04:20 <Lyka> those three are fourfuck pre-alpha v0001d
10:08:44 <int-e> fungot: what do you have to say about ycwECkwx?
10:08:44 <fungot> int-e: if a judgement other than the nth-highest bid ( at the start of
10:11:21 <Lyka> who is fungot?
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10:15:00 <Lyka> does the thing i pasted make any sense to you yet?
10:15:47 <tswett> Mmm, lemme take a look here.
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10:17:54 <tswett> Lyka: it looks like there's no way to access a computed tape location.
10:18:33 <Lyka> explain so i know what to add
10:19:57 <tswett> Well, there doesn't seem to be any way of accessing, say, tape[cache[(1)]].
10:20:04 <Lyka> oh, but can you not load it into cache and access it there?
10:20:54 <Lyka> well, it's a work in progress
10:21:37 <Lyka> should have enough ters left
10:22:28 <tswett> I'd say this looks a lot like machine code.
10:27:07 <Lyka> !A00DY000Z000Q000@Hello, World!
10:27:37 <Lyka> (inclde the carraige return in the code)
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10:46:29 <sushe> is there anybody out there
10:47:06 <sushe> so this is about sprituality etc?
10:47:34 <Lyka> esoteric programming languages
10:48:51 <sushe> nah i've never heard of an esoteric language
10:50:32 <sushe> HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH ArnoldC
10:52:14 <sushe> really some of this is pretty cool
10:52:38 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
10:52:52 <sushe> my first time using irc going to play around a bit more
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11:08:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43035&oldid=42636 * Rdococ * (+60) /* Game */ A programming language in which programs are court trials.
11:27:16 <Jafet> Objection-oriented programming
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11:56:31 <rdococ> could not have put it better myself
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12:00:46 <rdococ> I'm working on a specification for an objection-oriented language.
12:11:54 <rdococ> oh nevermind someone else can do it
12:16:40 <Jafet> The wright language for all language lawyers.
12:20:14 <int-e> wrought with peril
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12:28:22 <rdococ> "language lawyers" lol
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12:28:41 <rdococ> I'd prefer a more... (edge)worthy language
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12:44:46 <rdococ> *awkwa-- objectionable silence*
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12:49:03 <rdococ> stop this objectionable silence
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12:51:02 <rdococ> what do you mean by nah?
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12:51:45 <Taneb> I don't feel like stopping this objectionable silence
12:57:48 <rdococ> I object to your belief that the chatroom is still silent.
12:58:02 <rdococ> because I'm talking duh
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13:06:05 <int-e> rdococ: are you certain? I can't HEAR you!
13:10:57 <rdococ> int-e: we're not in PW vs PL are we?
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13:13:47 <int-e> rdococ: well if we are then I don't know where we are.
13:16:55 <int-e> It's pure logic, the same kind of logic that allows Granny Weatherwax to say "elephant" without thinking of one.
13:17:43 <rdococ> I wouldn't trust the defendant, she might be thinking of one
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13:27:26 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/LNEhb8t0
13:27:44 <Lyka> just the command list
13:29:32 <Lyka> lowercase letters are arguments
13:29:55 <Lyka> underscores are wildcards
13:30:48 <Lyka> and i just fixed a typo
13:32:54 <Lyka> so, does this mae sense?
13:33:18 <Lyka> i mean, make enough sense
13:39:17 <oren> You could put it on the wiki, although it doesn't have a page rating system so it's hard to point out examples of well documanted lanaguages
13:39:42 <Lyka> it's not ready yet
13:39:58 <Lyka> i still need to add a few things
13:40:22 <Lyka> i'm just taking a break o breathe
13:40:33 <oren> I added a lot of stuff to scrip7 a few weeks or months after I put it on the wiki.
13:41:06 <Lyka> it's not complete, i mean
13:41:21 <Lyka> maybe in a few days
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13:44:29 <Lyka> wanted to make sure the curent command name format looked okay
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15:08:18 <Taneb> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-32865248 :(
15:08:23 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, yes
15:09:17 <Taneb> It'll last at least into July
15:13:50 <Phantom_Hoover> i really want to see the homestuck i got into end, but it turned into something else entirely
15:30:45 * Lyka is coughing stuff up
15:30:52 <Lyka> just started using nasacort, but had another ill-timed coughing fit right after, requiring a blowing of the nose...
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15:39:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stackstack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43036&oldid=42098 * T.J.S.1 * (-2) edit the other reference to the interpreter page ._.
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15:47:12 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/LNEhb8t0 http://pastebin.com/pEfdTYz0
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15:51:54 <oren> Lyka: if it is something like pollen in the air, try wearing a medical mask
15:52:19 <Lyka> coughing into a mask?
15:52:43 <oren> no to keep the pollen out of your air
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15:53:18 <oren> I do it at my grandparents' because they have dogs
15:56:47 * Lyka puts on the apap's nose-mask and prepares to rest
15:57:45 <Lyka> i have sleep apnea
15:58:48 <Lyka> how should i put a placeholder on the wiki?
16:01:10 <Lyka> i mean, i should probably make a page for th language, but what do i link it to?
16:15:03 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43037 * Lesidhetree * (+412) First version of page. (I have never edited a wiki before, so this page needs a lot of work...)
16:16:33 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43038&oldid=43033 * Lesidhetree * (+15) /* F */ Added Fourfuck to the list
16:18:13 <Lyka> wha does the (+412) and (+15) mean on thouse two lines from HackEgo about my edits?
16:18:52 <Lyka> oh, character count
16:22:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43039&oldid=43037 * Lesidhetree * (+5) Request for help with formatting added.
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16:48:32 <Lyka> ais523: !A048SOB0A049SOB0@
16:49:55 <ais523> Lyka: that's an interesting typo
16:50:14 <Lyka> http://pastebin.com/LNEhb8t0 http://pastebin.com/pEfdTYz0
16:50:57 <Lyka> In fourfuck, it ould have outputted: HI
16:53:07 <Lyka> fourfuc is ready enough to be on the wiki but not ready enough to have any more than a near-blan page
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17:23:14 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43040&oldid=43027 * Ais523 * (+162) /* Why the reserved characters? */ correction
17:23:36 <ais523> HackEgo's doing the wiki announcements?
17:25:03 <Taneb> It has been for a while
17:27:41 <ais523> that seems so weird, given that HackEgo's normal job is very different from that (in particular, it involves a sandbox)
17:28:35 <oren> well hackego's server is the same computer as the wiki's iirc
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17:55:59 <fizzie> ais523: That's because of lazy. In particular, there was a really easy way to make HackEgo (technically, multibot) say something, and they're on the same box. There's a socat|stuff|socat shell-oneliner to receive the UDP from the wiki and write it to HackEgo.
17:56:44 <ais523> although I guess each update fits in one packet so most of the UDP failure modes won't matter
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17:57:03 <fizzie> That's what MediaWiki uses. Well, that and something more complicated.
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17:58:25 <fizzie> http://m.mediawiki.org/wiki/Manual:$wgRCFeeds supports UDP and Redis Pub/Sub as engines.
17:58:37 <b_jonas> ais523: this thing you mentioned about underload, implementing the flip from the other primitives, is a nice puzzle. at first I thought it was impossible (despite that there's an implementation) and I had an explanation for why it's impossible:
18:00:57 <b_jonas> the drop, dup, list, apply operators only read the topmost element of the stack, so the first time you read the original second topmost element, it has to happen with the concat operator. when you apply the concat operator, the original second topmost element has to be parenthisized, otherwise you can't recover it later.
18:03:10 <b_jonas> but to parenthisize that value, you have to use the list operator, which needs it on the top of the stack. you can't flip anything below the second topmost element, because you're not allowed to use the flip operator. thus, you have nowhere to store the orignal topmost element of the stack when you list the second topmost element.
18:03:19 <oerjan> i see the error: apply can read more elements than the topmost one as a side effect
18:03:20 <b_jonas> but it turns out this argument doesn't work.
18:03:37 <b_jonas> you can store the topmost element in the execution stack
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18:04:31 <b_jonas> you can list the topmost element twice, then flip the topmost element with a _constant_, then concat and do other transforms, then apply,
18:05:10 <b_jonas> to get something on the execution stack that contains the original first element twice,
18:05:23 <oerjan> b_jonas: flipping with constants is indeed the essential step on the way to solving the whole problem
18:05:50 <b_jonas> and drops it the first time so it can access and list the original second element.
18:06:13 <b_jonas> this doesn't give a complete solution, but at least shows that you can't prove impossibility this way.
18:06:24 <b_jonas> I should perhaps try to synthetize a full solution some day.
18:07:32 <b_jonas> Underload is still very counterintuitive to me.
18:08:00 <b_jonas> Sure, there are proofs that it can do anything, but it doesn't look like it can.
18:08:28 <ais523> b_jonas: a useful Underload construction is (some commands here)~a*^
18:08:50 <ais523> that basically stores the top stack element in the execution stack while you do something else
18:10:28 <b_jonas> I know it's really just upvalues, but this whole concept of storing a pointer to arbitrary runtime data on the execution stack seems alien.
18:12:50 <oerjan> b_jonas: next: fueue hth
18:14:00 <oerjan> just replace stack with queue, and watch sequencing get really annoying, but still possible
18:17:14 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on irc.dal.net.)
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18:17:57 <int-e> `rev wisdom/welcome
18:17:58 <HackEgo> ).ten.lad.cri no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF( .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
18:18:38 <oerjan> `run sed -i 's/on irc.*/on EFnet or DALnet.)/' wisdom/welcome
18:18:47 <HackEgo> Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:23:32 <oerjan> huh i didn't know the origin of the name EFnet was this hilarious
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18:32:11 <HackEgo> (.tenLAD ro tenFE no ciretose# yrt ,aciretose fo dnik rehto eht roF) .>/gro.sgnalose//:ptth< :ikiw ruo tuo kcehc ,noitamrofni erom roF !tnemyolped dna ngised egaugnal gnimmargorp ciretose rof buh lanoitanretni eht ot emocleW
18:33:05 <b_jonas> Is it known how much it limits underload if you're not allowed to grow the data stack over 100 elements? 3 elements? 2 elements?
18:34:54 <b_jonas> I think 100 elements would still give you the full power.
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18:36:02 <oerjan> i'd imagine much less would be enough
18:37:05 <oerjan> you can encode a stack as nested programs
18:37:51 <oerjan> 2-3 might get awkward :P
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18:41:22 <oerjan> ^ -> ^^, : -> :a~^~!a*
18:45:04 <ais523> oerjan: I have a feeling that the minimum required stack size is either 2 or 3
18:45:16 <ais523> with 1, : doesn't work, and thus obviously it's sub-TC
18:45:34 <oerjan> well : is the sticky one there
18:46:04 <ais523> I'm thinking of representing a stack as a list of cons cells
18:46:16 <oerjan> ais523: um that's what i did above
18:46:30 <oerjan> i get :()^ with 3 elements afaict
18:46:34 <ais523> well yes, it's the obvious way to do things
18:50:10 <b_jonas> sure, but I don't want just TC, I want efficiency, as in, O(n log n) interpretation time of a pointer machine (with immutable cells) program that runs in O(n) time provided the data types and register count is constant.
18:50:14 <oerjan> ~ -> ^~^(a~a*a)~a*^a* or thereabouts
18:50:39 <b_jonas> two-counter machine with exponential slowdown just doesn't cut it for me, and I'd like to avoid even quadratic slowdown
18:50:58 <oerjan> b_jonas: there's no exponential slowdown, i think this is linear in fact
18:51:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: sure, the exponential slowdown is when you can only interpret :^()
18:51:17 <ais523> well, it depends on what computational order the various Underload commands have, doesn't it?
18:51:35 <oerjan> b_jonas: i just added ~, gives you a TM
18:52:06 <oerjan> that might be using 4 cells
18:53:19 <b_jonas> ais523: I think you can implement underload in such a way that you take only amortized constant time for each operation, but I'm not completely sure. I'll have to think about the details.
18:53:20 <oerjan> it might be that * will give some slowdown, if the encoding isn't efficient.
18:53:27 <b_jonas> I should write an interpreter for that.
18:53:53 <ais523> b_jonas: I wrote an interpreter derlo which worked a bit like that; however there are some combinations that I don't think work
18:54:13 <ais523> like :(foo)~*, I'm not convinced that can be impled in amortized constant time
18:54:23 <ais523> and if it can be, it'll require crazy GC abilities
18:54:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: you should implement parenthisized lists as the kind of trees like data Tree = Empty | NonEmpty NonemptyTree; data NonemptyTree = Singleton Value | Concat NonemptyTree NonemptyTree;
18:54:49 <oerjan> hm right * and ~* requires you to be able to construct efficient deques
18:55:06 <b_jonas> that can interpret concatenation in constant time, though the problem is, you also have to decons trees efficiently, so it might not be enough
18:55:22 <b_jonas> in the worst case, you could use a finger tree representation, for that also gives you efficient decons
18:55:37 <oerjan> i don't think that has constant time concatenation?
18:55:51 <b_jonas> ok, I'll have to think more about this
18:56:11 <b_jonas> I don't think the gc is a problem, the gc can be done as amortized constant time (it may have to be a bit real world slow for that, but still)
18:57:15 <b_jonas> But I think just those plain trees would work.
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18:58:01 <b_jonas> You'd then represent the data stack as a plain list, and the code stack as a list of trees, with the assumption that they're actually flattened on the code stack.
18:58:29 <b_jonas> No wait, the code stack as a list of nonempty-trees
18:58:36 <b_jonas> you avoid pushing empty trees on it
18:58:51 <b_jonas> you execute a singleton tree by executing the operation in it,
18:59:09 <b_jonas> and execute a Concat by replacing it on the stack with its two children.
18:59:14 <atriq> The slides for my computability and complexity course say "Theorem (There need not exist a fastest TM): There is a decidable language L such that for every TM M accepting L, there is a TM M' such that L(M') = L(M) and the time complexity of M' is in O(log(time complexity of M))
18:59:28 <atriq> I don't understand this, can anyone explain?
18:59:28 <b_jonas> I think that's still amortized time constant provided that the memory use doesn't grow unbounded, because you run fewer of the latter ops than the former.
18:59:47 <atriq> Apparently it's from Sudkamp's Languages and Machines
18:59:51 <atriq> Which I don't have access to
19:00:23 <b_jonas> As in, if the code stack grows infinitely, you might still be screwed.
19:00:47 <b_jonas> Hmm wait, this might not work.
19:01:05 <b_jonas> It might have a quadratic slowdown. Damn.
19:01:19 <b_jonas> No, I think it might work.
19:01:24 <b_jonas> Dunno, I'll think about it later.
19:01:46 * oerjan thinks about leaving the thinking to y'all
19:02:28 <b_jonas> atriq: that sounds strange.
19:02:54 <atriq> Hence why I'm asking about it
19:04:51 <ais523> well, that sort-of implies that for any TM accepting the language, you can find an infinite number of TMs accepting it, each logarithmically faster than the one before
19:05:06 <ais523> which in turn implies to me that there are complexity classes so high that you can logarithm them repeatedly without making any difference
19:05:21 <ais523> this last statement doesn't seem impossible to me, given how asymptotic performance works
19:06:28 <atriq> b_jonas: here is how it is written in the slides: http://i.imgur.com/azjEQBD.png
19:07:06 <b_jonas> it should be a language that is very slow to compute, such as perhaps not even primitive recursive
19:09:06 <ais523> yep, it has to be something which has absolutely terrible performance
19:09:39 <atriq> This seems impossible to me... I don't get how it could work
19:09:59 <ais523> actually, a tetration has performance bad enough to stand up to any finite number of logarithms
19:10:13 <ais523> (x tetrate n = x^(x tetrate (n-1)))
19:10:44 <Sgeo> I wasn't even aware Nash was still alive
19:11:01 <ais523> this doesn't solve the problem by itself but makes it very plausible that such a thing could exist
19:12:26 <oerjan> Sgeo: i think he got the Abel prize this year...
19:13:06 <oren> Well, it torns out you can lower a computer's idle temperatrue by 40 degrees with nothing more than a can of air
19:13:29 <atriq> Decompressing air is cold
19:13:41 <b_jonas> oren: sure, running the computer in vacuum is a very bad idea, because the computer uses air cooling
19:13:42 <oren> i mean even after you stop using it
19:13:52 <b_jonas> always run your computer in an atmosphere
19:14:06 <b_jonas> the air isn't just for your use, it's for the computer too
19:14:21 <oren> in this case, having an atmosphere mostly of dust is a bad idea
19:14:44 <b_jonas> but don't leave the vacuum there
19:15:47 <Sgeo> Just in case anyone wasn't aware: Was, past tense. He died in a car crash
19:18:19 <oerjan> Sgeo: eep. i just got to that part of the logs.
19:18:54 <oren> I like the fact that puppy linux displays your battery in milli ampere hours
19:19:11 * Sgeo doesn't see him mentioned in the logs, unless the codu logs are bad
19:19:42 <oerjan> Sgeo: Taneb linked to the news without naming him
19:19:52 <b_jonas> I've seen him mentioned on other channels
19:20:11 <atriq> I was going to put something in the topic
19:20:14 <ais523> oerjan: Ubuntu's extended battery details shows the battery charge in watt hours, also the voltage
19:20:21 <ais523> so we could calculate it from there
19:21:23 <oerjan> a beautiful mind is one of the very few movies i've decided by my own to watch in the cinema
19:21:49 <atriq> oerjan: was it a good film? I haven't seen it
19:22:25 <oerjan> it was a decade or so ago and i'm not really sure
19:22:48 <oerjan> i read afterward it took some liberties describing his disease
19:23:07 <atriq> The last time I went to the cinema was... Friday
19:23:09 <oerjan> (he didn't really see things visually)
19:24:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: nice. I think Despicable Me 2 is the only such film for me.
19:25:10 -!- oerjan has set topic: John Nash has reached his final equilibrium | The chanteau | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
19:26:07 <atriq> (I quite like going to the cinema)
19:27:07 <oerjan> please change the topic again if you think that was bad taste
19:28:26 <b_jonas> oerjan: no, I think that's fine.
19:28:49 <b_jonas> It might not be a very good joke, but it's definitely not in bad taste.
19:42:55 <oerjan> oh today'd darths & droids is a round number
19:43:03 <oerjan> (y'all should know what this means)
19:51:01 <oerjan> "•David Attenborough is known (barely) for doing voiceovers for poorly selling computer games, but gains widespread fame after his appearance in the first Futurama movie." OKAY
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19:55:19 <zzo38> Once I noticed the logs you complain about people who try to use AmigaMML where public domain is not acceptable and that they will not accept CC0, Unlicense, WTFPL. I am not really sure it is possible; WTFPL allows you to do whatever you want and that includes if you don't want to accept the license therefore you have accepted it anyways and are in compliance with the license anyways. If you change the text of WTFPL without changing its name too tha
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19:57:32 <oerjan> zzo38: your line got cut off after "its name too tha"
19:58:20 <zzo38> If you change the text of WTFPL without changing its name too that is a violation, but only of the licence of the licence, not of the licence of the software.
20:01:48 <int-e> Meh, a self-referential license...
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20:03:53 <int-e> (The conditions for the license itself are longer than the license proper. So useless...)
20:07:24 <int-e> zzo38: In any case, a license is a legal agreement; it takes two parties to make it effective. So of course one can reject the WTFPL, CC0, and Unlicense terms with regard to your software.
20:07:38 <int-e> And thus I might end up in a situation where I cannot legally use it.
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20:18:27 <zzo38> int-e: But then if you use it anyways aren't you implicitly trying to agree somehow?
20:21:42 <int-e> It would probably be hard to build a case against me. ;)
20:23:33 <zzo38> And anyways I am not going to sue you for it; I can't, because I put it in public domain.
20:25:27 <int-e> I have no idea whether this works. It doesn't around here.
20:27:05 <int-e> It's effectively possible anyway; the only person who could possibly sue for copyright infringement is you.
20:29:59 <b_jonas> Hmm, can you sue yourself if you have split personality?
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20:33:26 <b_jonas> might depend on the country of course.
20:33:37 <b_jonas> more likely to succeed in the USA than in Europe.
20:49:12 <zzo38> Some people argue about what kind of FOSS licenses to use. For simplicity, I can suggest that if it is just a project you do by yourself and isn't a business project or whatever, a simple permissive license (or public domain) will do OK. However, if you are making free software to be sold/supported/etc by a business (this includes hardware sales), I would suggest GPL3 which provides a lot of the protections you would need.
20:49:45 <zzo38> (Note: I assume you aren't making a software library to be included in other products. If you are, you can still use GPL3 and provide an alternative commercial license, I suppose.)
20:50:03 <zzo38> (There are companies that do this, in fact.)
20:50:35 <MDude> One thing I don't like about GPL3 is the clause that lets people update from that to whatever other license the FSF passes in the future.
20:51:12 <zzo38> Actually I think that depends whether or not the software says it is allowed or not. As far as I know, you could even allow it only by proxy.
20:51:21 <atriq> MDude: you do not have to include that
20:51:40 <zzo38> For business protection you may want to use the "proxy" decision.
20:51:52 <b_jonas> MDude: no, I think that optional
20:52:01 <MDude> That'd be good, then.
20:52:02 <zzo38> (I don't know if true or not though)
20:52:35 <b_jonas> I for one prefer non-copyleft licenses
20:52:57 <MDude> The AGPL I'm not really interested in, just because I don't know how agressively someone could force audits on people they suspect run AGPL code on their servers.
20:53:25 <MDude> Which sounds like it could turn kind of witch hunty.
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20:54:04 <zzo38> I too tend to use non-copyleft for my own software these days (specifically, public domain), for simplicity. I have no problem to contribute to or use ones that are GPL though.
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21:04:31 <int-e> b_jonas: googled a bit; for Germany, you'll have a hard time finding anything to sue yourself over; for example, you cannot enter into legal agreements with yourself.
21:05:00 <Phantom_Hoover> <b_jonas> Hmm, can you sue yourself if you have split personality?
21:05:38 <Phantom_Hoover> obviously not, the legal system has contingencies for when the mentally ill get involved
21:05:42 <int-e> the law is unsympathetic to that notion, they're all the same natural person.
21:06:08 <zzo38> Can you put two MIDI signals (one in each direction) and power in one direction with RJ-45 connectors?
21:06:55 <MDude> You could make a corporation and order it to sue you, maybe?
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21:07:59 <oren> Yeh that oughta work
21:08:28 <int-e> but you cannot incorporate all by yourself.
21:08:49 <int-e> (still talking about Germany, obviously this depends on the jurisdiction a lot)
21:09:09 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think you can make a corporation at all in the uk
21:09:20 <ais523> there's a list of people suing themselves somewhere, let me find it
21:09:32 <Phantom_Hoover> they're only made by appointment from the queen or something
21:09:57 <ais523> here: http://www.loweringthebar.net/autolitigation/
21:10:04 <oren> wjat about a john doe suit where the actual perpetrator was you?
21:10:49 <int-e> You can't sue yourself in criminal law, the state (district attorney, whatever) is suing.
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21:13:17 <ais523> int-e: if it's criminal law, there's no suing going on at all, just prosecution
21:18:13 <int-e> right, that's a vocabulary failure on my part
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21:25:37 <zzo38> Is it legal for Sony to sue themself for putting malware in audio CDs?
21:25:56 <zzo38> (Which won't even play on their own CD players!)
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21:28:36 <oren> This laptop has a port on it with symbol IOIOI
21:28:58 <oren> some kind of male connector
21:29:12 <oren> what would that be for
21:29:27 <b_jonas> oren: serial port I believe
21:30:47 <oren> yeah that's what it is
21:31:00 <Phantom_Hoover> is it just kind of sticking out of the main body of the laptop
21:31:11 <oren> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_port
21:31:17 <oren> it looks like that
21:31:30 <oren> it is in a recess
21:33:08 <tswett> The neural net has successfully produced a pretty long message that's arguably structurally correct:
21:33:09 <tswett> 23:44:06: <pikhq> I found a reasonable collatz file of the string, but it's a link to the point of const void and get an array, but I don't really know why it'd be a bit surprised if the problem is a command-line, but it's pretty much less you and the sum of the fact it's a limited length.
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21:35:14 <b_jonas> neural net: it's called "pointer to const void", not "point of const void"
21:35:22 <b_jonas> but maybe pikhq wouldn't know that?
21:38:26 <tswett> No, you see, there's... a bad thing happening, and there are a bunch of solutions that they're trying, each one more desperate than the last.
21:38:40 <tswett> The absolute last resort solution is to use const void.
21:38:59 <tswett> pikhq is talking about what will happen when they finally get to the point of const void.
21:39:04 <int-e> John Nash has reached his final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/
21:39:31 <pikhq> That does not even sound like something I would say though. :)
21:40:10 <tswett> John Nash has completely decayed into electrons, protons and photons?
21:40:13 <int-e> It doesn't matter. As you can see, I really liked the "collatz file" :)
21:40:57 <zzo38> Do you know how to do MIDI in ways like I mentioned? How fast can it be in such case?
21:41:40 <b_jonas> tswett: no, there's neutrinos too
21:42:07 <tswett> Right, right. Electron antineutrinos.
21:43:11 -!- Phantom_Hoover has set topic: John Nash has reached his final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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21:43:57 <tswett> Ah, wait, do muon neutrinos and tau neutrinos decay?
21:44:38 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: thanks, I forgot to add /topic somehow.
21:45:14 <tswett> No, I think they don't.
21:49:21 <tswett> And how about the second and third generation quarks, what happens to those?
21:50:48 <tswett> Looks like they just decay.
21:51:31 <tswett> So John Nash would have completely decayed into electrons, protons, electron antineutrinos, maybe muon and tau (anti)neutrinos, and maybe some other stuff.
21:52:21 <b_jonas> You know that there are atoms that are pretty stable, right? There's huge balls of iron made of them.
21:52:47 <Phantom_Hoover> he'd decay into electron antineutrinos which would immediately start oscillating into an even mix of all 3 kinds
21:54:03 <b_jonas> And they're quite old too.
21:57:13 <oerjan> you people are so picky
21:58:05 <oerjan> i have a hard time restating that equilibrium as something that's both technically correct and didn't apply equally much before ... oh wait
21:58:28 -!- oerjan has set topic: John Nash's beautiful mind has reached its final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
21:58:34 <tswett> So the neutrons in iron don't decay?
21:59:48 <oerjan> the big question is whether protons decay at any time scale
22:00:27 <oerjan> hm let me find that wikipedia page again
22:02:31 <Phantom_Hoover> tswett, in fact if a neutron in iron-56 turned into a proton it'd just decay straight back into a neutron
22:04:42 <oerjan> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Future_of_an_expanding_universe#Future_without_proton_decay
22:04:52 <oerjan> that's some weird stuff
22:06:35 <oerjan> so basically, remaining matter will first turn into iron, then into black holes
22:09:16 <fizzie> Nice time range there, "10^(10^26) to 10^(10^76) years". Really narrows it down.
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22:22:32 <Phantom_Hoover> i wonder if loader's number is bigger than TREE(3). probably not
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22:38:23 <tswett> http://googology.wikia.com/wiki/Loader%27s_number - it's bigger than TREE(3).
22:39:42 <tswett> I'm guessing that D(1000000) is smaller than TREE(3) for reasons of proof strength.
22:41:20 <Phantom_Hoover> the TREE sequence is uncomputably fast-growing, which is what throws me
22:43:03 <Phantom_Hoover> i certainly remembered it being so, but looking now i can't find anywhere that actually says so
22:44:13 <Phantom_Hoover> "The growth rate of D(n) corresponds to the proof-theoretic ordinal of higher order logic. This is much, much larger than any computable ordinal notation has reached" dear god
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23:17:54 <zzo38> I found another bug in my RDF Turtle parser and now I have fixed it. It wouldn't accept the words "true" and "false" if immediately followed by a full stop without a space in between.
23:19:17 <zzo38> This is because in the parse_prefix function I wrote: if(ind && buf[ind-1]=='.') { buf[ind-1]=0; pushchar(cur,'.'); } but it is supposed to be: if(ind && buf[ind-1]=='.') { buf[--ind]=0; pushchar(cur,'.'); }
23:23:01 <izabera> but if we put the hammer in an elevator...
23:39:00 <tswett> Whelp, I'm gonna stop training the neural net. It's already producing some pretty nice results.
23:39:13 <tswett> And I don't feel like cooking my laptop any more.
23:39:43 <zzo38> I don't know what it is if you are going to put Thor's hammer in the elevator.
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23:41:20 <izabera> it's just a quote from the latest avengers movie...
23:41:51 <tswett> 22:22:45: <int-e> `` sed 's/^^-c:'
23:41:52 <tswett> 22:22:45: <HackEgo> [U+0640 ARABIC LETTER U] [U+A664 FULLY SIGN] [U+20CE LEGSGRAPE]
23:42:50 <ais523> assuming that's uninitialized memory, it's lucky that it picked a couple of Unicode characters with such silly names
23:47:38 <tswett> 22:27:51: <oerjan> `run perl -e '(':|' \ $_...
23:47:38 <tswett> 22:24:02: <HackEgo> [U+FEFE DONTINUALAY CURSERENT THIS ALE CAVOIG THINK
23:47:38 <tswett> 22:30:38: <Taneb> Anyway, anyway
23:48:08 <tswett> All right, I'm gonna paste this stuff.
23:48:17 <tswett> Anyone got a pastebin handy which wraps lines when displaying them?
23:49:39 -!- bb010g has quit (Quit: Connection closed for inactivity).
23:51:40 <tswett> Actually, a place where I can permanently host a 100 kilobyte text file?
23:52:15 <tswett> Maybe gist will do the trick.
23:57:35 <tswett> All right, here it is:
23:57:36 <tswett> https://gist.githubusercontent.com/tswett/2a5baafbb3807be9ff09/raw/a04903833ab54f043b22030d56d20b47d87b57a1/Random+%23esoteric%20logs
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00:13:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[RLS]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43041&oldid=43026 * Zzo38 * (+4)
00:13:31 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Brainfuck_File:Turtiously-proved-several-age-metro-strategies-seems
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00:25:08 <zzo38> The link is no good, but, that is what it is.
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00:28:25 <tswett> The link doesn't point to anything; I just found the link itself to be funny.
00:30:44 <tswett> When I set the neural net's "temperature" setting very low, the output consists almost exclusively of endless monologues delivered by oerjan to int-e.
00:30:53 <izabera> http://arin.ga/VyqZex/raw i just finished writing this, it's the grammar for a simple shell and an example of the generated AST
00:31:04 <tswett> The monologues are nonsensical and very repetitive.
00:31:13 <tswett> "i don't know what it's a bug in the same particles, but it's all the same as a subset of the same thing is that it's all the same way to do it with the same as a subset of the same problem"
00:31:20 <tswett> "it's a subset of the same thing is that it's a bit more often to say that it's a bit of the same as the same as a subset of the same particles are the same as a subset of the same thing"
00:31:37 <izabera> i thought it looks nice, just wanted to share...
00:31:41 <tswett> "i don't know what i was thinking of any of the same things in the same particles with the same thing is that they're not a bit more than the same as a subset of the same sequence of the same problem"
00:32:52 <tswett> So, according to this neural net, that is what the very essence of #esoteric is: oerjan telling int-e about computer science.
00:33:42 <tswett> Oh, occasionally oerjan's monologue is interrupted by this:
00:33:44 <tswett> 21:16:44: <oerjan> `run echo '99'
00:33:44 <tswett> 21:16:48: <HackEgo> let: Welcome to * SuperJedi224 * (+1)
00:33:55 <tswett> The exchange is always exactly the same, as far as I can see.
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00:34:19 <oren> let Welcome to SuperJedi224
00:36:06 <oren> So it's sort of an avergae of Hackego's Welcome message and its wiki change message
00:36:15 <tswett> For extremely low temperatures, the output just consists of this line repeated over and over:
00:36:15 <tswett> 21:16:48: <oerjan> int-e: i'm not sure what i'm working on the same particles are something like that.
00:37:56 <oren> Oerjan: are you sure what you're working on the same particles yet?
00:38:12 <tswett> It's a lot like that xkcd comic that predicts that in the year 2109, all English text will consist entirely of the word "sustainable" repeated some number of times.
00:41:43 <oren> well that's sure not sustainable
01:28:50 <zzo38> I think I made up the syntax highlighting program language now; now I can try to make up the program using it.
01:53:17 <zzo38> Now I tried to make the program (I have not tested it because I have no implementation). Do you like this kind of syntax highlighters? http://sprunge.us/deXP
01:57:21 <tswett> Really weird randomly generated URL:
01:57:22 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slereah______________________________________________________>_________________________________________________________________________________).html
01:57:40 <oren> ______________
01:58:10 <oren> so apparently, a url with a
01:58:31 <oren> _ is most likely to be followed by anothir _
02:00:32 <oren> Or wait, this a neural netowrk
02:03:08 <zzo38> Do you understand my program at all? Some syntax highlighting packages I am not so sure is even capable of syntax highlighting IRC.
02:04:13 <zzo38> Someone else also posted something on here, and there is also GeSHi and a few others but some looks capable, some looks not, as far as I can tell (I might be wrong though).
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02:08:38 <tswett> Now I'm training the neural net on one single version of the Agora Nomic Full Logical Ruleset.
02:09:14 <tswett> Which, I'm told, is extremely small as far as RNN training data sets go.
02:21:43 <ais523> is this going to be some sort of neural network vs. markov chain competition?
02:21:54 <ais523> I guess you could try it on the entire Agora email archives
02:22:59 * ais523 vaguely ponders why, when defining tuples in terms of pairs, people tend to use the right-associative definition
02:23:04 <ais523> i.e. (x, y, z) = (x, (y, z))
02:26:52 <ais523> hmm, Konversation's "are you sure you want to close this query" confirmation has a "cancel" button and a "close" button, both with the same icon
02:27:15 <tswett> I think expressions and phrases tend to be easier to understand when short components precede long components.
02:27:50 <tswett> So, training using the default settings produced crappy results.
02:28:31 <tswett> Al nothing a rulent the Rules by ame to person the sutcoming with hoald exponted by the gromating be action of the rules entict of the required the intally [...]
02:28:51 <tswett> Indentation and line length both seem essentially random.
02:29:25 <tswett> I mean, indentation is six spaces more often than not. But lots of lines are indented much further for no apparent reason.
02:30:14 <tswett> So now I'm training again, with the number of passes through the ruleset set to 200 instead of 30, and with dropout turned on.
02:36:18 <ais523> hmm, there is one notable difference to Markov chains there: all those nonwords are pronounceable
02:36:28 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: `words: not found
02:36:33 <HackEgo> imma ove lamodial mont rassemi distimed sulf londe vetarium sou's pecti fad pio stry febr eunece sixt imperpenical mon comegar
02:36:52 <ais523> I guess the Markov chain doesn't do too badly either
02:37:27 <ais523> oh bleh I designed a new esolang in my head recently and now I can't remember how it worked
02:37:44 <ais523> although, hmm, just complaining about it is bringing details bac
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02:43:09 <tswett> Of those, only "febr" is illegal.
02:43:15 <HackEgo> bract tendusta wrenterbe doubtil ilinquil scie gement groventi nishto ivilly zereolorv nit inte duper impan chab nellin don sation subcasli
02:43:30 <tswett> All of those are legal.
02:44:33 <tswett> Permitted by the English phonotactic rules.
02:46:28 <ais523> "wrenterbe" is not the sort of word someone would come up with for general usage
02:46:38 <ais523> it sounds more like the name of a village (but is misspelled for that purpose)
02:47:06 <HackEgo> chan rott cotf onnende cho godon natina char flemesta coneuted twe ecouu schue ker bouldj guld estex overna pate bra reinham fab subai vol chaftsma
02:48:01 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/perl \ use strict; use warnings; \ use v5.10; \ use open qw( :encoding(UTF-8) :std); \ use File::Basename 'dirname'; \ use Storable 'retrieve'; \ use List::Util qw(sum min); \ use Getopt::Long qw(:config gnu_getopt); \ BEGIN { \ eval { \ require Math::Random::MT::Perl; Math::Random::MT::Perl->import('rand'); \ }; \ #wa
02:48:26 <ais523> what does use open :std do?
02:48:46 <ais523> oh, makes it affect stdin/stdout/stderr
02:50:23 <tswett> I can run the #esoteric neural net with a higher temperature and it'll generate a lot more pseudowords.
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02:52:45 <tswett> Some examples: suball, le, vths, metaused, deflond, fraw, equalvy, screenshapi, whe, skeited, interrative, lense, postpism, tripools, autis, poverly, assalated, commriau
02:53:14 <ais523> I assume many/most of the words are real?
02:53:49 <ais523> or, well, "lense" is pretty convincing as a real word even though it technically isn't
02:53:56 <tswett> An earlier version of the net produced the word "shitted", which I'm pretty sure has never been used in this channel.
02:53:59 <ais523> actually many of those words are really convincing
02:54:04 <tswett> Yeah, "lense" is a decently common misspelling.
02:54:15 <ais523> such a pity that `logs is broken
02:54:49 <zzo38> tswett: Now it is in such channel (but, in quotation marks)
02:55:11 <Lyka|Phone> so I now must design the memory and disk access structure for fourfuck
02:55:21 <tswett> The gist contains the word "interpretter". I wonder if it has learned that if a word ends in something like "et", you add something like "t" before adding a suffix.
02:55:25 <ais523> this was a common problem with `log
02:55:33 <ais523> I ended up inventing `pastlog to work around it
02:55:58 <tswett> The `log command would return the message in which it was invoked as one of the messages?
02:57:30 <ais523> no, but it'd return other people's `log commands looking for the same thing, commands where you typoed what you were looking for, that sort of thing
02:57:34 <Lyka|Phone> current idea has a file size in increments of 1 MiB
02:57:53 <tswett> More pseudowords generated by the net: althousless, literiates, gdeh, preventely, guant, pood, deepcian, duno, harmlefuck, dundefll, kno, intuinters, onter, waii, irall, namescp, cutts
02:57:58 <tswett> The last three actually occur consecutively.
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02:58:23 <tswett> "cat do this kind of 6800s. A graph 16 time-compositions specific maps?!S # is made first bugs that people write irall namescp cutts also recursively."
02:58:47 <tswett> I'd say that the neural net, when run at the default temperature of 1.0, makes just about as much sense as fungot.
02:58:47 <fungot> tswett: ( eb) at the specified cost is not aether. rules to submit an application to submit that judgement within a time limit.
03:00:11 <ais523> fungot also has low-temperature modes though
03:00:12 <fungot> ais523: rule via the specified act and none of the
03:00:18 <fungot> Selected style: europarl (European Parliament speeches during approx. 1996-2006)
03:00:25 <ais523> fungot: give me something plausible-looking
03:00:25 <fungot> ais523: there is no question about it. the second point concerns transitional arrangements for finland, sweden and ireland can still use no more than repeat what has been the european union
03:00:35 <Lyka|Phone> so does a max file size of 64 GiB seem too small?
03:00:55 <ais523> Lyka|Phone: I thought you were designing this for very limited devices?
03:01:14 <ais523> 64 GiB is the current size of the media I use for backups
03:03:44 <ais523> my idea of a limited device is quite different
03:03:59 <ais523> the smallest processors I've worked on had less than a kilobyte of read-write memory
03:04:07 <pikhq> The thing is, SD cards are really, really cheap to drive.
03:05:49 <Lyka|Phone> possibly with an sdhc reader/writer connected
03:06:52 <pikhq> If you don't mind it being slow you can drive a SD card bitbanging with a couple of IO ports.
03:07:01 <Lyka|Phone> so limited + up to 32 gib "disk" space
03:08:26 <pikhq> Like, I'm pretty sure you could quite reasonably drive an SD card from an NES's controller port.
03:09:19 <oren> screenshapi should be an API for displaying images on non-rectangular or non-flat displays, while retaining their appearance as flat images
03:09:26 <pikhq> It's a card select, data in, data out, and clock.
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03:13:22 <oren> protip: if you bite your laptop you can hear the quiter component of it
03:14:35 <oren> laptops aren't very tasty though
03:15:23 <FireFly> You could try with an Apple laptop instead
03:17:07 <Lyka|Phone> for the interpreter, "cache" is 16 bytes, "tape" is 256 bytes, and (for this test) "cxarray" (read only memory in flash hard-coded into the arduino sketch) is 256 17-byte char strings, with the first 16 bytes readable.
03:17:51 <Lyka|Phone> the array is named cxarray[] for some reason I forgot
03:18:36 <Lyka|Phone> this is just for the testing environment
03:24:53 <Lyka|Phone> A0F6XF32C301SOB1 outputs the 7th byte in the 50th cxarray string
03:26:47 <Lyka|Phone> yes, I do have a command list printout in front of me...
03:30:08 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Sempiedram * New user account
03:32:31 <Lyka|Phone> 246 is stored to cache cell 0, string 50 gets stored in cells 240 to 255 of the tape, the tape cell whose cell number matches the contents of cache cell 0 is stored in cache cell 1, contents of cache cell 1 is outputted to terminal in byte form
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04:40:33 <zzo38> Do you know if it can work to do MIDI with RJ-45 connection if you have two ways and also power on one way? How good/badly it can work?
04:40:43 <zzo38> What speeds might you have?
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05:43:04 <zzo38> For some purpose a function to convert singular to plural form is useful to have, but, you should not do it other way around because it cannot work, due to many plural words you cannot know what is the proper singular form out of context.
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10:01:16 <fungot> mroman_: we are aware of what is coming down the line of the last few days alone, a long time with regard to cod is what we wanted the commission to look into how the policies of the uk. most of the amendments which the commission tries to explain on behalf of the council, that you need that money for just four days in strasbourg.
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10:13:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43042 * Rdococ * (+1502) Created page with "The '''Table programming language''' is an esoteric, declarative table-oriented programming language by [[User:Rdococ]] in which everything is an '''associative array,''' or '..."
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10:18:26 <rdococ> can someone help me to find the lowest computational class?
10:19:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43043&oldid=42586 * Rdococ * (+215) /* My esoteric programming languages */
10:21:03 <rdococ> the reason I ask is, theoretically, if a finite state automata or decision tree could be infinitely large, it would be the same as a turing machine.
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10:24:28 <rdococ> also what I found peculiar while thinking about infinite state machines is that, if you implement them right, you can solve the halting problem and be sure that it is turing complete too
10:28:27 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Table]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43044&oldid=43042 * Rdococ * (+156)
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10:36:34 <oerjan> <tswett> When I set the neural net's "temperature" setting very low, the output consists almost exclusively of endless monologues delivered by oerjan to int-e. <-- i am going to assume this neural net gives a peek into a parallel universe where things are even more disturbing than in this one hth
10:37:13 <oerjan> maybe i actually took over the world there. poor parallel int-e.
10:38:13 <boily> His Majesty Hellørjan.
10:39:45 <oerjan> WHY DID YOU NOT TELL ME THE PEASANTS WERE REVOLTING?
10:39:55 <lambdabot> oerjan said 1d 8h 58m 1s ago: <boily> BLASPHEMY! there's a tvtropes fork? <-- there's a good argument that tvtropes has totally messed up a licensing change and is basically in massive copyright violation for everything before the change. also they deleted a lot of stuff for PC reasons. thus, forks. although i still visit tvtropes myself.
10:40:01 <oerjan> and that's why boily is no longer in the net output hth
10:41:04 <oerjan> someone also pointed out they renamed a lot of the fun page titles to be boring.
10:41:06 * boily does some interpretative post-modern dance to explain everything, with lots of twirling, jumping and unusual wobbliness
10:41:35 <oerjan> (well they didn't say exactly that, but it's what i remember)
10:41:56 <boily> I understand forking that.
10:42:29 * oerjan is slightly appeased but thinks boily has shown himself more suitable for a different job. fooily.
10:43:03 <oerjan> go ask Gregor for a suitable hat.
10:44:35 <boily> Grellogor. could I get a nice hat please?
10:48:13 <oerjan> parallel oerjan seems to use "same" a lot.
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10:55:39 <oerjan> @tell ais523 * ais523 vaguely ponders why, when defining tuples in terms of pairs, people tend to use the right-associative definition <-- i'd assume it's because it's (1) most similar to lists (2) easier to index from the beginning
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11:17:41 <b_jonas> oerjan: I think it's because of currying
11:18:16 <b_jonas> oerjan: as in, in haskell, a tuple (a,b,c) is represented as ((,,) a b c) which is like ((((,,) a) b) c)
11:18:29 <b_jonas> or is that the opposite associativity actually?
11:18:53 <b_jonas> (not that it actually matters eventually)
11:21:31 <oerjan> hm no, it can be read either way, dependent on how you split it
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11:53:41 <b_jonas> oh, the 2015 icfp contest is now announced
11:54:28 <b_jonas> at http://icfpcontest.org/ , starts on 2015-08-07
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11:56:19 <Taneb> b_jonas, where is the teaser?
11:57:15 * oerjan has no idea if today's xkcd has a point. maybe he should go to explain xkcd.
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12:28:55 <int-e> oerjan: I wonder whether any DNA ancestor analysis (what's the proper term for this?) played into that xkcd.
12:29:52 <oerjan> int-e: i have my doubts he got the DNA for some of these hth
12:30:53 <int-e> but you can do the same thing with strings.
12:32:09 <oerjan> genes are so stringly typed
12:32:42 * oerjan now suddenly imagines aliens with statically typed dna
12:33:48 * int-e thinks oerjan may be mixing up xkcd and a previous ICFP. (was Endo typed?)
12:34:09 <int-e> s/ICFP/ICFP contest/
12:34:40 <oerjan> int-e: hm today's girl genius expands my idea of how big the wulfenbach empire is. especially since i thought it had much collapsed during the time skip...
12:35:24 <oerjan> int-e: i'm far too lazy to have been reading ICFP contests that closely
12:36:02 <oerjan> int-e: also, monologue monologue the same as the monologue hth
12:37:28 <int-e> I missed the monologue remark.
12:37:49 <b_jonas> by the way, where's 2014 icfp site hosted now?
12:38:00 <b_jonas> the 2015 site continues the bad tradition of not bothering to link to previous years
12:38:23 <b_jonas> (years before that are at http://icfpc2013.cloudapp.net/ http://icfpcontest2012.wordpress.com/ http://icfpcontest2012.wordpress.com/previous-contests/
12:46:12 <int-e> I guess you could ask dcoutts.
12:46:37 <int-e> http://icfpconference.org/icfp2014/ <-- see the Programming Contest Co-Chairs
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13:29:23 <Koen_> I hate the new interface but they did fix a few glitches in the process
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14:15:08 <oren> I don't see a new interface
14:22:25 <oren> oh, on cell phones
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14:32:31 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/fourfuck%20language/Fourfuck%20v0-pre-alpha-0003a2%20-%20Command%20List.pdf
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14:33:32 <Lyka> that's the most recent attempt at a command list
14:36:52 <Lyka> seem usable yet?
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14:39:41 <MDude> I guess this means I'll eventually time travel to become Taneb.
14:40:05 <MDude> Oh, I'm scrolled up more than I thought, and missed that when it happened earlier.
14:40:06 <Taneb> MDude, I do not think that you will
14:40:24 <Taneb> I don't remember being you
14:41:08 <MDude> Pretty good evidence, but I don't entirely put it past future me to mess with my own memory for stupid reasons.
14:41:52 <MDude> Like maybe avoiding time travel police who'd recognize be by who I think I am.
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14:43:50 <Taneb> MDude, like in that book?
14:44:36 <MDude> There probably is a book with that in it.
14:44:40 <Taneb> "All You Zombies" I was thinking of
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15:47:23 <MDude> Oh yeah, I ought to go read that.
15:47:59 <Lyka> #Stores 16 charachers in "tape" and then outputs them. Uses 5 cells in "cache".
15:48:02 <Lyka> !A001A100A210C013[23_SIB4C243+303]23_C013[23_C634SOB4+303]23_Q000@
15:48:06 <Lyka> make any sense?
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16:22:20 <Taneb> MDude, they made a movie of it recently
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17:18:42 <oren> but hackego is still up? madness
17:20:18 <int-e> a dns problem, perhaps?
17:21:02 <oren> I tried whoising hackego and then putting that IP into seamonkey but it just returns a blank page
17:22:03 <oren> Also hackego is accessing irc thru lithuania
17:26:28 <int-e> 162.248.166.242 esolangs.org www.esolangs.org
17:28:53 <oren> esolangs.org is giving me
17:28:55 <oren> NOTICE: This domain name expired on 2015-05-24 and is pending renewal or deletion.
17:30:44 <int-e> oren: yes. what I meant is that adding that line to /etc/hosts works for me.
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17:34:37 <int-e> (it appears to be one of those namevirtualhosts thingies, so http://162.248.166.242/ doesn't work.
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17:37:03 -!- int-e has set topic: John Nash's beautiful mind has reached its final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | no http://esolangs.org/ :-(.
17:48:32 <int-e> So is anyone mailing alan about his plans for the domain?
17:53:51 <fizzie> I should probably try.
17:54:08 <fizzie> I've sent some mails when rejiggeding the DNSes to point at the new thing.
17:56:07 <fizzie> Hmm, a whois check says it was just updated for a year.
17:56:24 <fizzie> Creation Date: 2005-05-24T19:21:16Z
17:56:24 <fizzie> Updated Date: 2015-05-25T11:25:26Z
17:56:24 <fizzie> Registry Expiry Date: 2016-05-24T19:21:16Z
17:57:04 <scoofy> but... it may sometimes take 24 hrs until the domain provider updates its records
17:57:08 <int-e> Domain Status: autoRenewPeriod -- http://www.icann.org/epp#autoRenewPeriod
17:57:32 <int-e> as far as I understand matters... as long as it says this it's expired.
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17:58:09 <int-e> (and godaddy will want to have some extortion money for reclaiming the domain :-/ ... but still far less than a domain grabber would take)
17:59:02 <fizzie> Huh, I was under the impression registrars didn't charge any extra fees for renewing during the grace period. Then again, I haven't let any domains relapse.
17:59:35 <fizzie> (Also I'm not clear on whether that status bit gets cleared if it gets renewed.)
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18:00:08 <int-e> I have registered another domain that had expired, and I remember waiting for it to actually be released to save costs. But this may have been past the grace period, I forgot.
18:00:34 <int-e> In any case, the name server entries are wrong.
18:00:49 <int-e> (meaning they're not what we need)
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18:02:39 <fizzie> Yes. I'll email Alan in any case, even though it might be just delay in those changing.
18:03:06 <fizzie> Incidentally, do you happen to know offhand some non-expired registered-at-GoDaddy domain I could compare the whois records to?
18:03:24 -!- nszceta_ has quit (Quit: My Mac has gone to sleep. ZZZzzz…).
18:03:42 <oren> editing /etc/hosts doesn't seem to do it. hmmmm.....
18:03:48 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:04:20 <int-e> oren: you may have to restart the browser
18:07:38 <fizzie> "For many domain name extensions (such as .com, .net, and .org) there is a grace period allowing you to renew the domain name after expiration without penalty. After the grace period for these extensions, you must pay a redemption fee plus the cost of regular renewal if you want to keep the domain name."
18:08:42 <fizzie> Well, that's more of a question for Alan.
18:09:00 <int-e> maybe he wants to get rid of it, lost interest, etc
18:10:20 <fizzie> I'm not sure how much my email helps, since he's sure to have gotten an email about it already.
18:13:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 252 seconds).
18:13:27 <int-e> I mean, in the case that he lost interest, he might still care enough to initiate some domain transfer. If it's about money, I'm sure we can all chip in somehow. So let's see.
18:14:14 <scoofy> or maybe he just forgot to renew :)
18:14:34 <fizzie> Or maybe it was set on auto-renew and the card expired. There's so many possibilities.
18:14:44 <int-e> fizzie: in the meantime, thanks
18:15:41 <fizzie> As for the money, apparently there's no extra fee for GoDaddy up until the 19th day after expiration. After that, there's a $80 redemption fee, and from day 25 to day 42 a complicated-looking set of "expired domain auctions", "backorders" and "closeout auctions".
18:18:27 -!- Phantom_Hoover has joined.
18:18:54 <int-e> The person who registered esolangs.org
18:23:28 <fizzie> Meanwhile-meanwhile, you can try a backup address http://esolangs.zem.fi/ -- though it may take a while for *that* to reach the DNS servers, and the SSL certificate will have the wrong name so no HTTPS (at least without nasty warnings).
18:24:23 -!- int-e has set topic: John Nash's beautiful mind has reached its final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | no http://esolangs.org/ ; try http://esolangs.zem.fi/.
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18:53:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?diff=43045&oldid=43039 * 78.245.243.132 * (+1965) formatting help!!
18:54:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?diff=43046&oldid=43045 * 78.245.243.132 * (+19) category: stubs
18:57:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?diff=43047&oldid=43046 * 78.245.243.132 * (-9) stubs using the {{ }} thingy
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19:29:08 <FreeFull> Has anyone used Picat for anything?
19:29:52 <zzo38> I do not know what it is
19:30:16 <zzo38> O, now I found it on Wikipedia.
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21:32:15 <fizzie> The domain is now allegedly renewed, so things should return to normal.
21:38:51 <fizzie> There was also a suggestion for someone else "active in the community" to take it. And/or me, although I certainly don't feel especially "active".
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21:39:17 <ais523> is this the Alan Dipert?
21:39:55 <fizzie> I was under the impression he didn't want to give it up, but maybe times have changed.
21:41:03 <oren> W007. it didn't work with urxvt
21:46:46 <fizzie> I don't think so? The mythology is kind of confusing.
21:48:08 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the alan dipert owns the domain name "esolangs.org"; graue owns the domain name and server "esoteric.voxelperfect.net"
21:48:37 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: the early quotes about the name have a "the" prepended
21:48:40 <ais523> and I've been using it ever since
21:48:56 <Sgeo> I've been called "a Sgeo" once
21:49:05 <ais523> the name comes up rarely enough that it's jarring whenever I say it
21:49:19 <Sgeo> Although I think in context it made grammatical sense?
21:49:23 <fizzie> Oh, I thought it was like "von" in German etc.
21:49:43 <fizzie> Although I guess that doesn't make sense, it's in front of the first name.
21:49:59 <fizzie> Maybe some sort of a title then.
21:50:01 <Sgeo> http://creaturesonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=364
21:50:08 <Sgeo> "Apparently there was a patch made by a Sgeo once upon a time, but I can't find it. - See more at: http://creaturesonline.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=364#sthash.ES3upSBL.dpuf"
21:50:18 <Sgeo> Oh ugh copy/paste gunk
21:50:32 <ais523> Sgeo: we still have the candelabrum underwater patch in NH4 :-)
21:50:42 <Sgeo> ais523, cool :)
21:50:46 <ais523> which reminds me, you're credited as "Sgeo"
21:50:53 <ais523> are you happy with that credit or would you prefer something else?
21:51:37 <Sgeo> Hmm, I'm not sure. Would '"Sgeo" (Seth Gold)' make sense?
21:52:14 <ais523> I mostly use either realname or nick; most people use realname
21:52:32 <Phantom_Hoover> Sgeo, imho Seth 'Sgeo' Gold is the better format to use there
21:52:48 <ais523> I hate that format ;-)
21:53:00 <ais523> there's nobody credited by both realname and nick atm (except possibly by mistake)
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21:53:24 <ais523> I tried to vote lib dem 5 years ago but there was a screwup
21:53:29 <ais523> in the proxy vote forms
21:53:37 <ais523> (I was in Canada at the time, making it hard to vote in person)
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21:56:35 <ais523> this time round I voted for the Conservatives because they were the only viable party a) in favour of austerity, b) that I thought had even vaguely realistic plans to implement it
21:56:48 <ais523> if not for the economy I'd probably have voted Green
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21:57:16 <Phantom_Hoover> every economist i've seen has said it was a terrible, growth-killing idea
21:57:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well you can't keep growth up indefinitely
21:57:44 <ais523> growth is only good for its benefits to quality of life
21:57:56 <ais523> in all other ways, it hurts rather than helps, because you're using up more resources
21:58:01 <Phantom_Hoover> you voted for the tories because you thought they'd benefit the quality of life
21:58:25 <Phantom_Hoover> the vast majority of recent economic growth has been due to increases in efficiency, not increases in consumption
21:59:15 <ais523> I voted for them because I didn't trust any other viable option to run the economy
21:59:32 <ais523> (however, my vote didn't decide the result in my constituency, so…)
22:00:22 <ais523> anyway I'm upset because the Conservatives got more of a majority than I wanted
22:00:32 <ais523> I was hoping that there'd be random rebellions and the like to keep them in check
22:00:46 <ais523> (I was really hoping for a Conservative/Labour coalition, but no way will that happen in anything even approximately resembling the current political client)
22:01:29 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: feel free to disagree with me
22:01:42 <ais523> that was such a hard choice to make this year, I didn't really like any of the parties :-(
22:01:46 <Phantom_Hoover> i suppose i can't actually draw any general conclusions about why anyone would think it's a good idea to vote for them, because you do everything by your own weird logic
22:02:42 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: well, enough of the country voted Conservative to give them a majority, and I think it's mostly to do with the lack of options
22:02:54 <ais523> (especially if you define "the country" as "England" rather than "the UK")
22:03:22 <ais523> "the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"
22:03:28 <Phantom_Hoover> i can see why english voters thought labour weren't an option, though i think their reasons for doing so were completely misguided
22:03:33 <ais523> which isn't quite accurate because it misses out places like Anglesey and the Hebrides, but it's close enough
22:03:51 <Phantom_Hoover> i don't think many of them did so as an ideological stance against economic growth, though...
22:04:04 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: it's basically reached the point where even if you agreed with every one of their policies, you don't trust them to implement them
22:04:42 <Phantom_Hoover> more or less. i voted for them anyway because it seemed like the best trajectory towards things becoming less shit
22:05:13 <ais523> which is a hard place for Labour to be in because it's hard to think of anything they could say to solve that problem
22:05:26 <ais523> hmm, are things in a bad way in Scotland atm? if so, it'd explain the near-universal SNP vote
22:05:46 <ais523> they aren't obviously doing badly in England (e.g. unemployment has been dropping)
22:06:08 <Phantom_Hoover> because the tories created a bunch of fake jobs, essentially. but i digress.
22:06:34 <Phantom_Hoover> the snp has been in government in scotland for like 8 years so that's not why they did so well
22:06:48 <ais523> they did pretty badly at Westminster last election, though
22:06:58 <ais523> and this time they've basically swapped places with the Lib Dems
22:07:13 <ais523> which is kind-of surprising given how they're restricted to a relatively small-by-population part of the country
22:07:59 <Phantom_Hoover> they focused on the scottish parliament until they managed to get a majority (despite the system being designed to prevent any one party doing so), then they went for the referendum, and after that they focused on westminster
22:08:24 <ais523> well they lost the referendum
22:08:43 <ais523> (which is probably indirectly a good thing from my point of view, because I'm counting on Scotland to swing the EU referendum to "stay in")
22:08:53 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: there were /two options/
22:08:57 <ais523> 55% is an even bigger landslide
22:09:24 <ais523> hmm, that's an interesting theory
22:09:49 <ais523> the main problems with it are: a) there's only two constituencies in Scotland who ever vote Conservative (and one of them did so this time); b) the Lib Dems have completely collapsed
22:09:52 <oren> the scotland thing reminded me of quebec
22:09:54 <ais523> so what are the other options?
22:10:13 <ais523> but the other minor options? UKIP? Green?
22:10:56 <alandipert> the alan dipert here, apologies for my delinquency
22:11:09 <ais523> I didn't even know you used IRC
22:11:13 <Phantom_Hoover> scotland might have almost no tory seats, and now almost no lib dem ones, but they're still a substantial fraction of the vote
22:11:14 <ais523> glad to meet you, anyway; I never have
22:11:51 <ais523> now I'm trying to work out if you can make politics into an esolang
22:12:23 <alandipert> apropos: previous conversation i'm happy to relinquish the domain to anyone willing to manage it
22:12:57 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: alandipert is the owner of esolangs.org (the domain name)
22:13:37 <Phantom_Hoover> if you're satoshi why have you not just bought all the websites with your bitcoin fortune
22:13:45 <ais523> Phantom_Hoover: maybe he or she /has/
22:13:55 <fizzie> I do host the DNS servers for the domain, so in some ways it would make sense to control the domain, so I wouldn't need to ask anyone if I need to point it at a different nameserver or something.
22:13:57 <ais523> ("alan" might be a male name, but I have no idea about "satoshi"
22:16:18 <ais523> or, hmm, I have /something/ of an idea because I've seen a bunch of Japanese names, but not enough to definitively draw patterns in them
22:17:15 <fizzie> Not so sure I like the aspect of paying for it all that much, though, but maybe I can scam some channel regulars to chip in. Also, I'd need to locate a sane domain registrar first. (gandi's the only one I've heard more than one person recommend, but they have a -- trivial, but still -- premium in their prices.)
22:17:26 <oren> satoshi is generally a male name
22:17:27 <zzo38> Phantom_Hoover: Maybe because, they don't want to, or because they don't accept bitcoins, or even all of a lot isn't quite enough, or they don't have any bitcoins left, or possibly different reason.
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22:20:42 <alandipert> fizzie, i'm off, drop me a line if you'd like to work out a transfer. we have a year to figure something out :-)
22:20:45 <fizzie> alandipert: I'll e-mail you once I've thought it over and looked for a domain place.
22:22:52 <alandipert> oh, if anyone is interested, this is a clojure version of 99 bottles: https://gist.github.com/alandipert/1795629
22:25:39 <Phantom_Hoover> alandipert, how did you end up with the esolangs.org domain anyway
22:27:20 <Phantom_Hoover> you actually can isometrically embed the torus into R^3
22:27:28 -!- alandipert has left ("Leaving").
22:28:38 <Phantom_Hoover> http://math.univ-lyon1.fr/~borrelli/Hevea/Presse/image_tore_PNAS_reduite.jpg
22:32:31 <oren> oh so it is like an accordion
22:32:57 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: hm slightly different definition of isometric than i'd immediately think of
22:34:30 <oerjan> now is that embedding smooth
22:35:37 <oerjan> i guess it cannot be, as fractal as it looks
22:35:46 <oerjan> ...what's its hausdorff dimension
22:36:28 <ais523> huh, today is a public holiday in the US and UK at the same time, for different reasons?
22:36:32 <ais523> how often does /that/ happen?
22:37:05 -!- Phantom_Hoover has quit (Ping timeout: 256 seconds).
22:37:37 <oerjan> (in which case it's also a public holiday in norway)
22:38:04 <ais523> in the UK it's triggering under a "last Monday in May" clause, I think
22:38:19 <ais523> we have some public holidays designed to create long weekends that statistically have nice weather
22:38:21 <oerjan> in norway it's triggering as the monday following pentecost
22:38:23 <ais523> and this is one of htem
22:38:38 <oerjan> so _three_ different reasons :)
22:40:43 <oerjan> and none of them guaranteed to be simultaneous in a random year afaict
22:41:11 <oerjan> or wait maybe the uk and us ones are
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22:42:11 <oerjan> seems they are both always the last monday in may
22:44:07 <zzo38> I wrote many calendar operation programming in TeX; if you have stuff about holidays to contribute I can add that too
22:48:00 <zzo38> I already have program to calculate Easter and leap years, and I have Julian, Gregorian, and Discordan calendars, and names of months and days of week in many languages (including the names used in the calendar included with Zork), many Canadian holidays, a few US holidays, and one Japanese holiday.
22:48:05 <oerjan> i don't think norway has any official holidays of the "nth ...day in <month>" kind, although mother's and father's day are unofficial ones
22:48:38 <oerjan> hm maybe election day, although that's not really a holiday either
22:49:03 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: ...day is supposed to stand in for a weekday there
22:50:49 <zzo38> I do have support for such things as "first Monday of February", "the last Tuesday before the last Tuesday of March", "the next Sunday after January 15", and so on.
22:51:10 <zzo38> No support for equinoxes and solstices yet though, nor for phases of the moon.
22:54:21 <oerjan> oh there's no "nth" in the election day, it's a monday in september but which one is decided by the government
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23:07:03 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> is alan dipert graue <-- no, graue's real name is scott
23:07:39 <oerjan> is surname is feeney, not aaronson hth
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23:50:21 <Lyka> the wiki seems alitte weird
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23:56:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fourfuck]] N http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?oldid=43048 * Lesidhetree * (+281) Created page with "Not sure who edited the main page, not that i don't appreciate the formatting help, but Fourfuck is not yet finalized enough for some of that. I'll make an attempt to fill in ..."
23:57:41 <Lyka> is there a problem with the wiki's server?
23:58:07 <oerjan> Lyka: the domain name temporarily expired, it should fix itself soon
23:58:35 <Lyka> then how ami able to access the site?
23:58:47 -!- GeekDude has joined.
23:58:55 <oerjan> well it may have been fixed already. i think there's something else...
23:59:05 <oerjan> fizzie: the wiki seems to be missing CSS...
23:59:27 <Lyka> http://esolangs.zem.fi/wiki/Main_Page seems to look better..
00:00:27 <Lyka> who is 78.245.243.132?
00:00:36 <oerjan> esolangs.zem.fi is a temporary domain name fizzie set up
00:02:24 <oerjan> how does he manage to use an IP which doesn't exist...
00:04:46 <Lyka> who's Koen in IRC?
00:04:48 <oerjan> @tell fizzie whatever you did to make esolangs.zem.fi work has made esolangs.org partly broken
00:05:01 <oerjan> Lyka: Koen_ usually, but he's not always here
00:05:25 -!- hilquias has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
00:05:34 <oerjan> confusingly, Koen without _ is someone else iirc
00:06:32 -!- ZombieAlive has joined.
00:07:21 <oerjan> @tell fizzie e.g. https://esolangs.org/wiki/Special:RecentChanges has stylesheet links mentioning //esolangs.zem.fi/
00:07:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lesidhetree]] N http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?oldid=43049 * Lesidhetree * (+79) Little crappy intro
00:17:21 <Lyka> Simplest "Cat" Program I can think of, terminating on Ctrl-@ (aka NUL): !A000SIB1[01_SOB1SIB1]01_Q000@
00:20:55 <Lyka> i think equivalent to void main(){char a=0,b; b=getc(); while(a != b){ putc(b) ; getc(b); } }
00:21:11 <Lyka> assuming i used getc() and putc() right
00:21:45 <Lyka> void main(){char a=0,b; b=getc(); while(a != b){ putc(b) ; b=getc(); } }
00:22:48 <oren> is a bowl of ice cubes a good heat sink?
00:24:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?diff=43050&oldid=43048 * Lesidhetree * (+176) added a little disclaimer
00:24:54 <oren> We're trying to charge an old laptop without overheating it
00:25:15 <oren> Lyka: int main()
00:25:39 <Lyka> int main(){char a=0,b; b=getc(); while(a != b){ putc(b) ; b=getc(); } return 0;}
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00:29:16 <oren> So I have a metal bowl filled with ice cubes on top of the charger brick
00:31:46 <Lyka> Can you guess what this does? ![00=]00=Q000@
00:32:14 <oren> loops infinitly?
00:32:24 <Lyka> was it that obvious?
00:32:55 <Lyka> Can you guess what this does? ![00=SIB1SOB1]00=Q000@
00:32:59 <oren> Well [00= means while(c1 == c1)
00:33:33 <oren> that is a cat program
00:33:51 <Lyka> that runs forever
00:34:05 <oren> (From my working memory of your language's spec)
00:34:38 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/fourfuck%20language/Fourfuck%20v0.0-pre_alpha-0003b.pdf
00:35:10 <Lyka> i have that in front of me
00:36:50 <Lyka> it an now run commands stored in memory
00:38:32 <Lyka> though i have not yet debugged it
00:44:39 <Lyka> !A000A101A20DSIB2[02_SIB3SOB3+010]02_Q000@Hello, World!
00:44:49 <Lyka> is that cheating?
00:50:59 <Lyka> !A000T0D0A000T3D0Q000@Hello, World!
00:56:56 <Lyka> fine... !A048A165A26cA36cA46fA52cA620A757A86fA972AA6cAB64AC21AD00AE01AF0D[DF<SORD+DED]DF<Q000@
01:07:43 <Lyka> I guess this is what you wanted: !A000A101A200A348C230+010A365C230+010A36cC230+010A36cC230+010A36fC230+010A32cC230+010A320C230+010A357C230+010A36fC230+010A372C230+010A36cC230+010A364C230+010A321C230+010T3D2Q000@
01:11:03 <Lyka> well, i forgot to made the T--- command i need, after the subsequent number shift, the T3D2 would become T4D2, and I would use T502 instead of it.
01:13:02 <Lyka> but, yeah, that's the most efficient way to code "Hello, World!" into the code itself
01:15:41 <Lyka> Ignore the spaces: !A000A101A200 A348C230+010 A365C230+010 A36cC230+010 A36cC230+010 A36fC230+010 A32cC230+010 A320C230+010 A357C230+010 A36fC230+010 A372C230+010 A36cC230+010 A364C230+010 A321C230+010 T3D2Q000@
01:24:04 <oren> It should be possible to do direct translation to C
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01:31:10 <FireFly> b_jonas: I stumbled upon this, which reminded me of your pondering of infix operators for min/max in C a while ago: http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2015/05/25/10616865.aspx#10616991
01:33:54 <oren> http://hastebin.com/raw/yoboboqami
01:36:52 <oren> Firefly: hehe 2s complement screwery
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01:40:16 <oren> explanation: -x is ~x+1 so -~x is ~~x+1 = x+1
01:41:07 <Wright> Oh, it expired. Never mind
01:42:01 <oren> -x-1 = ~x so ~-x = --x-1 = x-1
01:42:29 <oren> also it doesn't look like a tadpole in my font
01:42:41 <oren> beacuse ~ is high
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01:47:03 <oren> it looks like a tadpole in monofur though
01:49:53 <FireFly> oh, that's what a tadpole is. oh, that's where poliwag's name comes from apparently
01:50:49 <int-e> Wright: it's mostly recovered (as far as I can see, whois lists the right DNS servers now, but the information needs to propagate to the .org dns servers)
01:51:55 <int-e> actually, no, it has to propagate from those to the rest of the net
01:52:28 <oren> it works here in canada
01:55:35 <oren> in the meantime you can use the esolangs.zem.fi
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02:03:14 <int-e> oh fun, 199.249.112.1 is routed to different hosts for different sources... makes sense, but it makes the result of dig any esolangs.org @199.249.112.1 non-reproducible.
02:04:00 <int-e> (it's wrong for me, still returning {ns53,ns54}.domaincontrol.com. as DNS servers)
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02:08:41 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/fourfuck%20language/Fourfuck%20v0.0-pre_alpha-0003c1.pdf
02:09:04 <Lyka> (for thoise bored sous who keep track of my stuff)
02:10:09 <Lyka> Hello World: !A000A101A200 A348C230+010 A365C230+010 A36cC230+010 A36cC230+010 A36fC230+010 A32cC230+010 A320C230+010 A357C230+010 A36fC230+010 A372C230+010 A36cC230+010 A364C230+010 A321C230+010 T602Q000@
02:10:25 <Lyka> seems simple...
02:10:40 <int-e> a small sample... http://sprunge.us/bIRg (austria, austria, germany, netherlands, canada)
02:11:56 <int-e> So it looks like the first two are actually reaching the same server, but the rest are different.
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02:26:24 -!- int-e has set topic: John Nash's beautiful mind has reached its final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/ is or will be back; try http://esolangs.zem.fi/.
02:31:37 <zzo38> I like to use URIs as identifiers in some stuff (as properties in extensible data files, to identify audio plugins, and other stuff), but some people like to use only HTTP URIs and really you can use other schemes too such as urn:uuid: and a lot more; it doesn't really matter
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02:52:23 <Lyka> trying to make a program that will output the numpers 0 to 999. problem is, the math operations are all for unsigned chars...
02:55:05 <Lyka> i used x00 - x63 in a single byte for 0 to 99
02:55:52 <Lyka> x0000 to x03E7 ain't that easy with 8-bit memory
02:58:23 <Lyka> 0 to 99 ! A000A101A264A330A40AA564A600A700 [03< {04> /047%746+366SOB6 |000 }000 %046+366SOB6 P0A0 +010]03< Q000 @
02:58:29 <pikhq> zzo38: URIs are fairly simple to parse and quite well supported. (though for identifying properties a URN might be more appropriate)
02:58:38 <pikhq> zzo38: So yes, that overall makes sense.
03:00:01 <zzo38> If you have a MAC address but no domain name or permanent IP address or anything like that, you can still generate a UUID.
03:01:00 * Lyka realizes that, not only does fourfuck no longer have anything to do with brainfuck, it may soon have 7 or 8 character command/argument blocks, as the arduino is a 16-bit environment
03:01:23 <pikhq> zzo38: An RNG will also suffice.
03:01:48 <zzo38> Yes, that also works, but not as good in my opinion.
03:02:05 <Lyka> so much for the name of my anguage meaning anything...
03:02:44 <pikhq> Frankly an RNG isn't at all worrying -- 122 actually random bits are basically *not* going to collide.
03:13:42 <zzo38> If you make up the Magic: the Gathering card like Notion Thief but reversed, should power/toughness/cost be changed a bit?
03:16:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?diff=43051&oldid=43050 * Lesidhetree * (+547)
03:18:16 <Lyka> Okay, as the language seems to increasingly become less and less like Brainfuck, with the 4-character command/argument blocks becoming a pain due to anticipating needing 16-bit integers for the exact project it was designed for, I am gonna have to switch active development to a six or eight character version for intended use. I plan on coming back to developing Fourfuck as a simplified variant when I have finished the project this was designed for
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03:19:40 <Lyka> i might need to store UTF-16 in the intended project...
03:22:00 <Lyka> ike my note said on the talk page, i'll simplify whatever i make back into 4 chars
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03:24:43 <zzo38> You should not use Unicode
03:25:14 <zzo38> (And, even if you do, UTF-16 isn't really the best way to use Unicode, anyways.)
03:26:05 <pikhq> In general you should use Unicode if at all applicable, but UTF-16 is uniquely terrible and should only be used for compat purposes.
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03:26:23 <Sgeo> pikhq, not as bad as UCS-2 which afaik is what Javascript does
03:26:30 <pikhq> Fuck UCS-2 so hard.
03:26:48 <zzo38> In general you should use ASCII if possible.
03:26:52 <Sgeo> Rust has a "WTF-8" encoding for UCS-2 compatibility
03:27:05 <Sgeo> https://simonsapin.github.io/wtf-8/
03:27:10 <Sgeo> "WTF-8 (Wobbly Transformation Format − 8-bit) is a superset of UTF-8 that encodes surrogate code points if they are not in a pair. It represents, in a way compatible with UTF-8, text from systems such as JavaScript and Windows that use UTF-16 internally but don’t enforce the well-formedness invariant that surrogates must be paired."
03:27:23 <pikhq> In general you should use UTF-8, which for most code is "use ASCII and don't do things that break UTF-8".
03:27:48 <zzo38> For programs that use Unicode, yes UTF-8 is much better than other encodings since then it works even if you are using only ASCII.
03:28:23 <zzo38> Sgeo: I thought Wikipedia says CESU-8 is encoding individual surrogate codes in UTF-8?
03:28:56 <zzo38> Still, VGMCK supports both that as well as proper UTF-8 (this is because the actual output file contains text in UTF-16 format)
03:29:31 <pikhq> zzo38: WTF-8 is different -- it's UTF-8 except it defines a representation of invalid UTF-16.
03:30:18 <pikhq> It's not UCS-2 compat, it's "dumb shit that acts like UTF-16 units are Unicode codepoints" compat. :)
03:31:06 <zzo38> I recommend in any program that uses input normally in ASCII but writes output into a file that contains UTF-16 text, that it would support both CESU-8 and proper UTF-8.
03:31:46 <zzo38> (In other programs that need Unicode I do not recommend adding support for CESU-8 since it isn't important.)
03:32:03 <pikhq> Supporting CESU-8 as well as UTF-8 without it being an explicit option (i.e. --enable-cesu8 or some such) is a bad idea though.
03:32:31 <pikhq> (non-obvious behavior with two non-identical strings mapping to the same string can be real dangerous)
03:35:45 <zzo38> It depends much on the program, I think.
03:38:02 <zzo38> It is not necessarily a bad idea. In the cases where it is, there is probably no point supporting CESU-8 anyways if you can just use an additional filter program to convert it at first.
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03:41:08 <zzo38> In the cases where I used it, there is no such danger.
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03:53:02 <oren> utf-8 is a good transport and file format, but for internal purposes Unicode-aware porgrams should use WTF-32
03:53:22 <pikhq> Why? What does UTF-32 buy you?
03:53:43 <oren> the ability to count characters, move them around, etc, easily
03:53:57 <pikhq> "Count characters" For what purpose?
03:53:59 <zzo38> I think it depends on the program!
03:54:18 <pikhq> Also, not really: a Unicode character is composed of one or more codepoints.
03:54:23 <zzo38> Many programs that have some support for Unicode don't need to count characters or anything else like that
03:55:22 <zzo38> Many of my programs do not support Unicode at all and I am not going to add any support. A few do, but only do what they need to do with Unicode, and not more than that.
03:56:29 <zzo38> For example, my RDF Turtle parser library has some support for Unicode; specifically, it allows Unicode in identifiers and will decode \u escapes into UTF-8.
03:58:14 <zzo38> (Allowing Unicode in identifiers is part of the specification of RDF Turtle syntax; I do not really like it much or recommend using that feature when it can be avoided, but it is there for completeness.)
03:59:02 <oren> Well, UTF-32 essentially reduces the complexity of reading a character to fread()ing 4 bytes
03:59:25 <pikhq> But why are you reading 'a character'?
03:59:35 <zzo38> oren: Yes, if that is what you need to do; like I said it depend on the software. I find that is rarely necessary anyways.
03:59:38 <oren> and allows to seek N characters through a string by adding n*4
03:59:51 <pikhq> Also, not really because a character is not 4 bytes.
03:59:52 <zzo38> Reading bytes tends to work better, and is compatible with ASCII.
04:00:02 <pikhq> A Unicode character is one or more codepoints.
04:01:00 <oren> pikhq: for eaxample?
04:01:05 <zzo38> Unicode has a lot of stupid stuff, really.
04:01:57 <pikhq> Consider LATIN CAPITAL LETTER A + COMBINING GRAVE ACCENT.
04:01:59 <zzo38> For my own stuff I generally prefer PC character set.
04:02:02 <pikhq> That is a single character.
04:02:09 <pikhq> It is two codepoints.
04:02:10 <oren> Are you claiming that formally, the combining characters are not characters?
04:02:58 <pikhq> Essentially. Or, at least, if you treat them as "characters" you're dealing with a very different concept of "character" than the end user is likely to.
04:03:26 <oren> For practical purposes, I have no toruble selecting a combining character and pasting it somewhere...
04:04:15 <pikhq> That's not "two characters" to most users that's "an A with a `" and if you treat it as an A followed by something that modifies it into an "A with a `" you're gonna have some fucking weird behavior.
04:04:27 <Sgeo> Does "right arrow" move by one character or one codepoint?
04:04:56 <zzo38> That's stupid stuff in Unicode.
04:05:17 <pikhq> zzo38: Sure, it would be vastly easier if they didn't put in any of the combining stuff.
04:05:31 <pikhq> This is a legacy of them trying to fit everything in 16 bits.
04:05:40 <zzo38> Even then, there is much stupid stuff remaining.
04:05:49 <oren> `unidecode y ̄
04:05:50 <HackEgo> [U+0079 LATIN SMALL LETTER Y] [U+0020 SPACE] [U+0304 COMBINING MACRON]
04:06:22 <pikhq> If you didn't have the space there the macron would be above the y.
04:07:02 <oren> Right, and I find it annoying that I can't put my cursor between them.
04:07:17 <zzo38> oren: Yes I agree too
04:07:24 <zzo38> That should be a property of the font metrics and not of the character set anyways.
04:07:28 <pikhq> You're gonna find similar stuff with decomposed hangul. :)
04:08:05 <zzo38> Complex scripts, combining characters, text direction, ligatures, etc all of that should be defined in the font metrics only.
04:08:20 <pikhq> (hint, nobody things of the individual jamo as "characters", but they can totally be represented as individual codepoints!)
04:08:22 <zzo38> And then they can use whatever character encodings you want.
04:08:58 <oren> right, it will be a problem if Korean user types a word, gets the last jamo wrong by typo and can't adjust it by simply pressing backspace
04:09:28 <zzo38> Yes, it is right it is the problem
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04:17:34 * Lyka makes a daily system backup
04:18:50 <oren> Irssi appears to do what I proposed: treat combining characters like other characters. if I type ñ and then backspace, it deletes the tilde but not the n
04:20:04 <oren> however, I can't put by cursor inside ñ. So it does half of what I think it should do
04:20:36 <pikhq> Now find a Spanish speaker that doesn't know about Unicode and see if that behavior is what they think it should be.
04:22:08 <oren> Right, but that is the fault of unicode by making the wrong behaviour easy to implement
04:22:28 <zzo38> Use the precomposed character then if you are Spanish like that
04:22:51 <pikhq> zzo38: Unfortunately for you, OS X prefers decomposed characters. :)
04:23:15 <zzo38> There are at least 100 problems with Unicode, I think..............
04:23:30 <pikhq> And it's still the least awful solution.
04:24:21 <zzo38> No it isn't. What TeX does is better
04:24:37 <pikhq> Uh, doesn't TeX not even support multilingual code that well?
04:24:49 <pikhq> Erm, multilingual text
04:25:21 <zzo38> Actuall TeX does have stuff for multilingual text, you can use different hyphenation pattern for each language in one file, and you can make the font for different language text too
04:26:35 <zzo38> DVI can even use 32-bit character numbers, and so can METAFONT
04:26:53 <zzo38> So it is more than Unicode and it mean you can even do made-up languages
04:29:29 <Lyka> so i am gonna try and figure out how a six-character or 8-character version of fourfuck would work
04:30:30 <Lyka> as, like i probably said, the arduino is 16-bit, why am i making an 8-bit language?
04:32:37 <ais523> someone writes a JIT for BF and posts it to reddit, and Urban Müller (or someone impersonating him) turns up to say hi
04:33:07 <zzo38> ais523: I don't know which one; ask Muller
04:33:09 <ais523> could easily be an impersonator, actually
04:33:38 <zzo38> Do you like my "deanonymizing operator" and "cons operator" extensions I added into RDF Turtle syntax?
04:34:46 <zzo38> For example now (1 2 3 4) and (1,(2,(3,(4,())))) is same thing.
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04:36:57 <zzo38> Or you can make a "incomplete list" by (1 2 3 4,)
04:37:28 <zzo38> And a list can "loop" such as (!_:x 1 2 3 4, _:x)
04:38:16 <zzo38> (You don't have to loop from the beginning; you can loop from in the middle too)
04:59:50 <zzo38> With pure tokenizing highlighters it looks difficult to properly highlight IRC because I do not see how you can highlight the command name (or number) in this way. Well, maybe if you are using regular expressions that support looking behind you at what has already been parsed, then maybe you can, but I am not sure.
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05:44:22 <rdococ> can you do loop like stuff in a mathematical language with assignment but not loops? I know I'm being really vague, but - say I have multiplication - can I, without loops, do exponentation by a variable value?
05:44:42 <zzo38> I think you are too vague
05:46:22 <rdococ> okay-- can I - without a built-in exponentation function - without using any loops - and only using numbers and enumerable types - do exponentation by a variable value?
05:54:07 <ais523> do you have logarithms?
05:54:18 <ais523> or, well, you still need /one/ exponentiation for that to work
05:54:30 <ais523> but in general, no because of computational complexity problems
05:54:50 <ais523> you can't produce a number of size O(2^n) in time O(1) without some operation that grows numbers exponentially
05:55:00 <ais523> and the lack of loops means you can't write programs slower than O(1)
05:55:22 <ais523> *grows numbers exponentially or faster
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06:05:03 <rdococ> what I decided to do is add unconditional goto
06:05:38 <rdococ> (since everything is a number you can do logic with 0's and 1's)
06:05:44 <rdococ> (in the language I'm making of course)
06:06:06 <izabera> http://iq0.com/notes/deep.nesting.html do you guys know this?
06:10:24 <rdococ> or c++ or whatever or c with pants
06:12:43 <oren> I've always done it that way with multiple returns
06:13:18 <zzo38> Maybe I will read it later
06:16:29 <oren> oh wow this is longer, it goes into many ways to simplify code
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06:24:20 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/fourfuck%20language/Fourfuck%20Octopus-0000.pdf
06:24:42 <Lyka> (the octopus is just a random word i picked)
06:25:23 <Lyka> it's a different approach than the one i had been planning
06:25:59 <Lyka> i had to modify some commands to allow for optional 16-bit arithmetic
06:28:44 <Lyka> also, i looked at the backlog. nobody seems to say goodnight here.
06:31:16 <oren> I usually fall asleep with no warning
06:33:09 <zzo38> I do not find "goodnight" necessary on computer much
06:42:30 <zzo38> In Windows you can still count how many lines in a file: find /v /c ""
06:43:06 <Lyka> i'm gonna get something to munch on. maybe it will help me pass out
06:46:32 <rdococ> forget it I'm making a BF derivative -.-
06:47:21 <zzo38> Is it common to use a goto command in parsers more than in other programs?
06:48:22 <ais523> or to generalize, heavy use of goto is common in state machines
06:48:28 <ais523> and parsers are one of the main applications of state machines
06:50:50 <quintopia> i don't know why careful use of goto in other settings has not come back into vogue since "'GOTO considered harmful' considered harmful" came out. It seemed a pretty good argument to me.
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06:52:55 <Lyka> GOTO is not harmful?
06:53:14 <zzo38> GOTO is not necessarily harmful.
06:58:40 <Lyka> in c/c++, is this possible: int main(){f1();return 0;} void f1(){f2();} void f2(){f1();}
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06:59:46 <Lyka> i mean, that sort of thing
07:01:01 <zzo38> If you declare the functions at first then you can do like that, although such thing isn't going to work.
07:01:11 <zzo38> It will just run out of stack space
07:01:31 <Lyka> i wouldn't do that program, of course
07:01:31 <zzo38> Either that or get into an infinte loop without using any stack space
07:01:35 <zzo38> This depends on the compiler
07:03:06 <zzo38> I think the only time I ever used setjmp in a C code is this: while(setjmp(exception_buffer)); (I do mean exactly that, including the semicolon)
07:03:41 <Lyka> the R--- set of commands in my language reads 4 chars and runs them as if it were a command
07:03:45 <ais523> zzo38: I normally put the semicolon on the next line when doing that
07:04:16 <zzo38> I wasn't sure whether or not it is allowed to reuse the same buffer, and got conflicting answers, so I did it like that rather than setjmp by itself.
07:04:19 <ais523> also a) I think it's equivalent to setjmp without the loop (/unless/ you're copying exception_buffer elsewhere and then jumping from the new location); b) if you want to be compatible with old versions of C you should compare to 0 explicitly
07:04:23 <Lyka> so it's menu --- run_commands --- menu ---
07:05:09 <Lyka> wel, it compiles for the arduino, but i have not yet tested it
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07:06:11 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Folder]] http://esolangs.zem.fi/w/index.php?diff=43052&oldid=42543 * Rdococ * (+154) /* Name dispute */
07:06:31 <zzo38> ais523: O, you put in next line, OK, but in this case I am not copying the buffer at all; see above why I did that
07:07:00 <zzo38> (I have other times too used a while loop with no body, but this is the only time I used setjmp at all)
07:08:06 <oren> Ok so I just learned something. In addition to chmod there is a command chattr which, rather than being a chat program, is used to set extra attributes to ext2 files.
07:08:40 <zzo38> What extra attributes is it?
07:08:46 <oren> So if you don't know about chattr, and there is a file which has been chattr +i on it
07:08:52 <oren> you can't delete it
07:09:15 <oren> i for immutable
07:11:12 <oren> a file with i in its lsattr output can't be modified in any way, even by root
07:11:36 <oren> and only root can take off the i with chattr -i file
07:12:45 <zzo38> OK, now I know that
07:19:07 <Lyka> sorry i talk a lot about the language i am making due to having nothing better to do.
07:19:50 <Lyka> i'm thinking out loud, but am willing to hear comments
07:21:10 <zzo38> That is fine with me
07:22:06 <Lyka> seems like i keep kiling chat whenever i talk about octopus ( octopus is the clean alias of fourfuck's crrent development branch )
07:22:19 <zzo38> There is no point posting all of your thinking about it on here unless you are willing to hear comments, which you are, so it is OK
07:23:57 <zzo38> People that discuss other thing can do so it doesn't seem a problem to read different set of message mixed up in this way (it occurs even in books), but if someone does have a problem it is possible to program the computer to temporarily suppress such messages if they are interfering with the others.
07:26:17 <Lyka> if someone needs the channel's soapbox and i am aware, of course i will yield to the while they are on it
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07:30:40 <zzo38> I thought you wanted to talk a lot about the language you are making due to you have nothing better to do; so, if you have something to write, do so.
07:30:59 <zzo38> Even if nobody comments right now, it would be logged
07:31:42 <Lyka> i can only say so much
07:32:27 <Lyka> i am making the language due to having nothing better to do
07:32:47 <Lyka> i talk about th language to get feedback
07:33:01 <Lyka> sorry if there was confusion
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07:37:32 <zzo38> Well, post here; if I have any comment I may write some, or possibly someone else might. However it might come late but that's OK because we have logs
07:37:48 <zzo38> rdococ: What kind of epic idea is that?
07:38:22 <rdococ> an idea for an esolang
07:39:01 <rdococ> I wont spoil the details but it's going to be called And.
07:41:03 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/octopus%20language/Octopus-0000.pdf
07:41:20 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/octopus%20language/octopus_0000a.ino.txt
07:41:40 <Lyka> i should go to sleep soon
07:42:27 <Lyka> since chat's logged and stuff, you don't have to wait for me to wake up to comment
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07:44:54 <zzo38> What is all that stuff at the top for?
07:59:45 <rdococ> it is at least as good as a push down automaton
08:04:53 <fizzie> @tell oerjan I'm not surprised. Anyway, the real domain seems to be back, so I undid the MediaWiki changes.
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08:12:55 <Lyka> zzo38: what stuff?
08:12:59 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43053 * Rdococ * (+1708) /* And */finished typing it for now
08:13:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43054&oldid=43053 * Rdococ * (+6) /* Cat Program */
08:14:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43055&oldid=43054 * Rdococ * (+2) ...
08:15:06 <zzo38> All of the const char cx00[17] PROGMEM = " "; and so on
08:15:39 <Lyka> it's an arduino thing
08:15:49 <Lyka> cxarray is in flash memory
08:18:53 <Lyka> cxarray is part of the program, but never copied to ram
08:20:40 <Lyka> program as in the interpreter setch
08:23:09 <Lyka> zzo38: does this make sense to you now?
08:26:28 <Lyka> that cxarray[256] is a array of 256 17-byte char strings?
08:28:56 <Lyka> well, pointers to 17-byte char strings
08:28:57 <mroman_> are morphisms that are both epimorphisms and monomorphisms isomorphisms?
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08:32:45 <zzo38> Lyka: I know that, but among other things they are all const and all spaces too
08:33:05 <mroman_> are there any other endomorphisms other than the identity function?
08:33:34 <mroman_> seeing as they are f: X -> X
08:35:05 <Lyka> zzo38: cause i haven't filled them in yet?
08:36:04 <Lyka> did i not say that cxarray is read-only?
08:36:11 <zzo38> Lyka: O, that's why, OK
08:36:43 <zzo38> I know it is read-only; you told me that and I can see it from the program too, but I don't know much about Arduino stuff or about your program, therefore it seem strange to me at first.
08:36:52 <mroman_> or is f(x) = -x and endomorphism as well?
08:37:05 <zzo38> mroman_: Yes there are other endomorphisms
08:39:09 <zzo38> Although it depends what category.
08:39:13 <zzo38> In some categories there aren't any
08:39:14 <shachaf> mroman_: http://ncatlab.org/nlab/show/bimorphism
08:41:47 <zzo38> mroman_: In that example though, if you have f: Integer->Integer then yes it can be
08:44:20 <zzo38> shachaf: I just changed that mage a few seconds ago
08:44:33 <zzo38> Because it said "Contemts" by mistake instead of "Contents"
08:44:46 <oren> is there a standard for naming of mp3's
08:45:30 <oren> should the filenames be Artist - Album - Song.mp3 or the reverse?
08:45:45 <zzo38> oren: I think that depends what you want to sort by
08:46:07 <zzo38> (Also MP3 isn't very good; FLAC is much better)
08:46:33 <oren> well yeah... mp3's, flacs, wav's etc
08:47:10 <oren> the extension isn't the point, that already has a standard :)
08:49:52 <zzo38> Although arranging the stuff in that filename in my opinion mostly depend how you want to sort by; I prefer filenames without spaces though. However you might also like to organize in a SQLite database then you can easy sort by whatever you want to
08:51:48 <oren> A database is a good idea. Or if there is a separator in each filename like Artist-Song then we can sort using sort -t- -k2 or the like
08:52:34 <zzo38> Yes, that is another way
09:01:45 <zzo38> And can help even if you do have a database, perhaps
09:02:35 <zzo38> Although - might not be best one depending on if the artist's name has a hyphen, too (unless you change it for purposes of the filename, which is also possible; the correct name can be placed into the database instead).
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09:54:37 <mroman_> oren: Artist/Album/Song.mp3 ;)
10:05:13 <b_jonas> nah, just don't put literal names of artists or albums or songs in filenames, beacuse those strings can be crazy
10:05:50 <b_jonas> you can put sanitized versions of them in the filename if you wish, as long as you keep them short, not have strange characters, and make sure the filename is unique.
10:06:10 <b_jonas> Keep the actual names somewhere else, such as in the file metadata or in separate files, whether text or database or whatever.
10:06:45 <b_jonas> Making the filenames sort in the way you want to play them is a good idea though.
10:06:58 <b_jonas> Helps playing whole album sorted on mobile phone.
10:13:03 <FireFly> Sure, they should be in the metadata as well
10:13:36 <FireFly> as long as the filenames are descriptive, I'm happy
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10:19:24 <lambdabot> fizzie said 2h 14m 30s ago: I'm not surprised. Anyway, the real domain seems to be back, so I undid the MediaWiki changes.
10:21:12 <fungot> mroman_: mr president, on a permanent basis, developing employability, seeking alternatives to closures, then the commission would like to reiterate my thanks for the comments made today by the rapporteur, per gahrton, and now we are of the opinion of the wto that it is clear that the european parliament has new opportunities, for example, we have reached a consensus, mostly with countries with which we have acquired a living c
10:21:22 <fungot> Selected style: irc (IRC logs of freenode/#esoteric, freenode/#scheme and ircnet/#douglasadams)
10:21:25 <fungot> mroman_: i'm researching scheme for a while until this thing clears up. maybe as a list
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10:26:15 <oerjan> fungot: are you using natural clarification or some chemical?
10:26:15 <fungot> oerjan: by a simple macro; what advantage does being able to solve this
10:26:33 <oren> Alternatives to closures?
10:26:58 <oerjan> "Many substances have historically been used as fining agents, including dried blood powder,[5] but today there are two general types of fining agents — organic compounds and solid/mineral materials."
10:27:54 <oerjan> "Because potassium ferrocyanide may form hydrogen cyanide its use is highly regulated and, in many wine producing countries, illegal."
10:28:33 <Taneb> oerjan, is Potassium Ferrocyanide an alternative to closures?
10:29:25 <oren> crap. I have no less than four copies of the same song. mtimes: 2006 2011 2013 2014
10:29:35 <oerjan> Taneb: i dunno; my TC proof for potassium ferrocyanide is not yet very far
10:31:42 <oren> I guess I really like E-Type - Life.mp3, aka etype life.mp3 aka life by etype.mp3 aka Etype: life (CD ver.).mp3
10:35:41 <oren> Hey E-Type is from sweden! I didn't know that!
10:36:08 <oerjan> a surprising number of people are swedes
10:37:41 <Taneb> The winner of this year's Eurovision Song Contest, for example
10:38:05 * oerjan didn't watch, as usual
10:38:07 <Taneb> And at least two people in this very IRC channel!
10:38:29 <Taneb> FireFly, my statement is still true!
10:38:44 <FireFly> That statement of yours is /also/ true
10:38:51 <oren> FireFly has established a better bound on it though
10:39:05 <FireFly> You are very truthful today, Taneb
10:39:22 <Taneb> oren, did you know that Graham's number is at least 11!
10:39:24 <boily> hellørjan. you're all having a very fungottian conversation this morning.
10:39:24 <fungot> boily: http://java.sun.com/ j2se/ 1.4.2/ docs/ latest/ html/ r5rs-z-h-7.html%_idx_138 put
10:39:31 <Taneb> It might even be more than 12!
10:39:44 <boily> fungot: no, no java yet for me, at least for the next two hours.
10:39:44 <fungot> boily: you should focus on the feature differnce, not the
10:39:50 <oerjan> boily: fungot seems to have gone into the wine business
10:39:51 <fungot> oerjan: i might as well as the type-checking and deconstruction. the pre-scheme compiler. http://www.bloodandcoffee.net/ campbell/ txt/ fnord and this:
10:40:10 <oerjan> boily: although e still manages to use scheme for it
10:40:47 <fungot> FireFly: fnord big lexical factor was miranda a couple of hours
10:40:56 <boily> Château de Scheme 2015. Type checked and well rounded.
10:41:27 <oerjan> Taneb: are you referring to graham's humongous number or to what he was actually approximating
10:41:39 <oren> I have three copies of Masterboy - Show Me Colours.mp3
10:41:41 <FireFly> Speaking of Eurovision, I think I heard an E-type song in our ESC qualifier competition once
10:42:03 <oerjan> because with those things, the lower bounds are ridiculously lower than the upper ones, it seems
10:42:25 <Taneb> At the time, the lower bound was 6 and the upper bound was Graham's number
10:42:44 <Taneb> Now the lower bound is 13 and the upper bound is the Hales-Jewett number
10:43:15 <oerjan> FireFly: don't worry, he's just using the blood and coffee as a fining agent hth
10:43:19 <oren> Is there a list of songs that have won somewhere
10:43:49 <oren> oh wiki has it
10:43:54 <oerjan> his wine will be a hit with the sleepless vampire segment
10:45:41 <oerjan> fungot: wait, are you male or female
10:45:41 <fungot> oerjan: if you look at the source. when you try to say something
10:45:50 <fungot> https://github.com/fis/fungot/blob/master/fungot.b98
10:47:00 <Taneb> oerjan, I do not believe fungot has a gender
10:47:00 <fungot> Taneb: i just threw away a lot, not use the site rules as a way to transmit information!
10:48:16 <boily> fungot is a fungot.
10:48:16 <fungot> boily: " metamodel"?? haha.
10:48:41 <oerjan> fungot: i found your source unenlightening on the matter tdnh
10:48:41 <fungot> oerjan: that's already there.))
10:48:59 <boily> fungot: flblblblblbl!
10:48:59 <fungot> boily: " write search terms in box. click search.") well, i
10:50:23 <oren> if fungot is hebrew it could be plural male
10:50:23 <fungot> oren: so you want to))
10:52:54 <oren> because -ot is how you make plural on male nouns apparently
10:53:21 <boily> shellochaf. expert advise on fungot's gender?
10:53:22 <fungot> boily: while foo fnord. _) a _, _ cannot be evaluated by the outer procedure. you then remove x1 from the set of polynomials is dense in the space
10:53:35 <boily> (or genders, because apparently the 'got is plural.)
10:53:50 <boily> Taneb: as a gender pluralist, any idea on fungot?
10:53:50 <fungot> boily: make the keys those small rubbery things
10:54:20 <Taneb> fungot, what would you say your gender or genders are?
10:54:20 <fungot> Taneb: ( scariest thing i could see some use for it. :p
10:54:50 <Taneb> boily, fungot is unnerved by the concept of gender, and is terrified that they can see some use for it
10:54:51 <fungot> Taneb: i think the avoidance is just for nomic-sh. i'm not set at all on that page are funny.
10:56:15 <Taneb> boily, I think that says it all
10:59:43 <boily> Tanebs Are Almost About ABCs?
10:59:56 <Taneb> These acronyms are a bit confusing
11:00:26 <Taneb> I am fairly sure there is only one Taneb
11:00:40 <Taneb> I mean there used to be a racehorse called Taneb back in the 20's or something
11:01:36 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, shared account with my brother
11:01:49 <Taneb> At the time he had the nickname "Neb" because it was Ben backwards
11:02:11 <Taneb> I tacked the first three letters (reversed) of my name onto that, "Tan"
11:03:27 <boily> I Don't See Why It Could Also Abort.
11:03:39 <Taneb> I do sometimes wish I could articulate acronyms
11:03:57 <oerjan> Taneb: not such a good start
11:08:04 <oerjan> "I don't see what is confusing about acronyms" hth
11:08:04 <Taneb> I have an exam in 6 hours about computability and complexity
11:08:19 <Taneb> Finally putting my years here to good use
11:08:27 <oerjan> Taneb: look at the bright side, it's pretty sure to terminate
11:09:07 <Taneb> It's a 90 minute exam, I should hope so
11:09:17 <Taneb> Jeez, I've been here for like 5 years
11:09:35 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, ah yes, i had the same experience when i took automata and formal systems last year
11:09:46 <oerjan> ...so why do i keep thinking of you as a newbie...
11:09:55 <Taneb> oerjan, because I'm like half your age
11:10:44 <b_jonas> oerjan: because he sometimes asks beginner questions here?
11:10:51 <Taneb> And also I kind of feel like a newbie wherever I go
11:10:55 <Taneb> It's an experience I enjoy
11:11:40 <Taneb> I sometimes get lost for fun
11:11:50 <Taneb> It's oddly liberating
11:11:59 <Taneb> ...I may be an odd person
11:12:47 <boily> wait wait wait. oerjan is twice Taneb?
11:12:57 <Taneb> boily, roughly, I think
11:13:01 <Taneb> oerjan, how old are you?
11:13:12 <oerjan> 44, for about another month
11:13:26 <Taneb> oerjan is 2*Taneb + 4
11:13:49 <oerjan> so in two years you can stop being a newbie
11:14:47 <Taneb> By then I may have almost graduated!
11:15:07 <mroman_> why again did I need inlining for my static typed stackbased programming language
11:15:12 <b_jonas> oh, the esolangs.org wiki is up again at the original address, great
11:15:31 <oerjan> mroman_: performance hth
11:15:44 <mroman_> it had something to do with it not type checking unless inlined
11:16:05 <oerjan> b_jonas: technically i never noticed it stop working, although its CSS got screwy because of fizzie's temporary workarounds
11:16:17 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/DtRAbW0q
11:16:39 <mroman_> probably because you could not assign a unique type to the function "mother"
11:16:49 <mroman_> because it would accept both hans susi and hans fritz
11:17:16 <oerjan> mroman_: oh right, statically typed stack is tricky when you have eval-like commands, i remember the old CAT discussions
11:17:29 <oerjan> i don't think he ever completely solved it
11:18:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: i did notice the discussion thank you very much
11:18:12 <oren> Ok, I have like ten songs under both DJ S3RL - song name and S3RL - song name
11:18:41 <oerjan> there's should be some ISSN
11:19:05 <mroman_> oerjan: I solved it by inlining
11:19:23 <mroman_> @= does not really define a new function
11:19:44 <mroman_> like #define mother parent female
11:19:53 <mroman_> because you can't assign mother a type
11:20:00 <mroman_> but you can use "parent female"
11:20:17 <b_jonas> I still don't really understand the scoping rules of metafont. It's confusing. Is there a good description of it somewhere?
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11:20:39 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/bxNCwGbU <- that's the full code btw
11:20:40 <b_jonas> Like, when is a tag token used for its name, and when is it used for its current assigned meaning?
11:21:03 <b_jonas> Does the latter matter only when it's the first component of a variable name, or also when it's an index?
11:21:11 <oerjan> mroman_: you'll probably get problem with recursion, then...
11:21:30 <mroman_> some functions can't be recursive
11:22:18 <oerjan> in fact if you don't have recursion, hindley-milner types are exactly equivalent to simple LC types + pervasive inlining
11:22:33 <mroman_> Looks like I've implemented a "poly" flag
11:22:50 <b_jonas> `` mf <<<'\ show 2+2' # do we have mf available in the sandbox?
11:22:51 <HackEgo> bash: mf: command not found
11:22:55 <b_jonas> `` mpost <<<'\ show 2+2' # do we have mf available in the sandbox?
11:22:56 <HackEgo> bash: mpost: command not found
11:23:21 <oerjan> mroman_: do you have polymorphic types, if not that'd seem related (although not enough to solve typing in the presence of closures and eval)
11:24:22 <oren> In 2005 what *was* www.ginogina.ca?
11:24:57 <mroman_> oerjan: http://codepad.org/GM3Ik2p4
11:25:11 <mroman_> if I read my code correctly $- delays type checking until later
11:25:19 <oren> Supposedly I got a few songs from there that appear not to exist anymore. Hell the artists aren't showing up at all
11:25:30 <mroman_> but you have to specify every combination of acceptable types
11:25:45 <oerjan> mroman_: your language looks like a weird cross of stack and prolog/mercury
11:26:18 <mroman_> well you can do some prolog like stuff in it
11:26:25 <mroman_> if it type checks it means "true" :)
11:26:36 <oerjan> oh so that's all compile time?
11:27:02 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/oFsuRpEu
11:27:42 <oerjan> hm ISSN already means something
11:28:20 <mroman_> mind you that "true" and "false" are both types here
11:28:36 <mroman_> upper case letter are type placeholders
11:28:47 <oerjan> b_jonas: i think zzo38 knows metafont hth
11:29:08 <mroman_> (dup :- A -> A A; swap :- A B -> B A and so forth)
11:30:20 <b_jonas> mroman_: how do you define functions that invoke other functions?
11:30:53 <mroman_> := defines the function body
11:31:00 <oren> I can;t believe how hard it is to get info on something that existed only 10 years ago
11:31:16 <mroman_> or :- A true -> true; or := swap pop
11:31:26 <b_jonas> oren: yeah... some things are underdocumented on the internet
11:31:41 <mroman_> is like or :: a -> True -> True in Haskell
11:31:53 <mroman_> except Haskell doesn't really allow this
11:31:59 <mroman_> and in Haskell True isn't a Type
11:32:45 <oerjan> oren: http://web.archive.org/web/20051219014320/http://www.ginogina.ca/content.php?about
11:33:17 <mroman_> and I apparentely only implemented type checking so far
11:34:25 <oren> So I guess I must have had an account there and downloaded mp3's from links that were posted?
11:35:09 <oren> Or maybe my friends did and gave me the mp3's? who knows?
11:35:26 <mroman_> with :- and := the type checker will try to check the type of the function against the type you try to give it
11:35:51 <mroman_> with $- the type checker won't do that but only check the types in calls to that function
11:36:29 <mroman_> foo $- -> false; foo := true; would type check as long as you never call foo
11:36:56 <oerjan> mroman_: True can be a promoted type with the DataKinds extension hth
11:37:18 <oerjan> it doesn't have values though
11:37:56 <oren> looking at that web page makes me want to cry, the internet used to work fine without all this JQuery CSS3 HTML5 bullshit
11:38:16 <mroman_> mainly useful for things like mother := parent female where the function on the left can't be assigned "a single type"
11:38:34 <mroman_> which either has to be inlined through a macro or by defining it with $-
11:38:49 <mroman_> which tells the compiler to not type check mother := parent female
11:38:53 <mroman_> but type check calls to it
11:39:00 <mroman_> er.. *tells the type checker
11:41:16 <mroman_> oerjan: cat has a successor called kitten now
11:41:39 <mroman_> probably not by the same author though
11:44:26 <oerjan> btw i misspoke, hindler-milner without recursion is equivalent to duplicating let definitions, not inlining them
11:45:16 <oerjan> basically, you let each use site have its own type for a let-defined variable, but it still needs to have a type
11:47:06 <mroman_> e.g. if mother is used, you infer from the context what type it should have
11:47:51 <mroman_> what I could've done instead is that the type checker automatically creates overloaded versions of mother with all combinations of accepted types
11:49:39 <mroman_> I'm not sure if that works with recursion though
11:50:38 <oerjan> mroman_: kitten seems to be by evincar who was a regular here for a while, cat was by christopher diggins and my memory is vague on whether he came here or whether i just saw him elsewhere
11:51:08 <mroman_> It surely works if you can't overload the return type :)
11:52:13 <oerjan> and the cat language site seems to have vanished
11:55:40 <mroman_> I was just lazy to implement it
11:58:12 <oerjan> <pikhq> Frankly an RNG isn't at all worrying -- 122 actually random bits are basically *not* going to collide. <-- * imagines a far future in which civilization is destroyed by an unexpected hash collision
11:59:32 <mroman_> if(hash(time()) == 0xEAFFF44789ABCD17DBA) { /* start war on 6571-10-10 */ }
12:00:11 <mroman_> who had known that 6000-8-8 would also produce the same hash .
12:00:57 <mroman_> I guess it's semi-expected
12:02:09 <oerjan> i was imagining more like a future where we're all living as uploaded minds in computronium
12:02:47 <mroman_> and every individual is stored under the key hash(individual.dna)?
12:02:50 <oerjan> and the world computer uses hashes for security
12:03:05 <mroman_> somebody is up for being erased and replaced by somebody else
12:03:25 <mroman_> that way you know that your population won't grow infinitely
12:03:52 <oerjan> well the hashes were more than big enough when the system was designed, you see
12:03:55 <mroman_> someday a newborn cyberbaby will overwrite somebody
12:04:25 <mroman_> nobodys gonna use that not-enough condoms!
12:04:57 <mroman_> I don't know what you're plans about that are in the computronium.
12:05:11 <oerjan> in fact they still _seemed_ to big enough. nobody actually expected the hash collision.
12:05:57 <mroman_> but hash collisions are an inherent property of hashing
12:05:57 <oerjan> and it wasn't in something as mundane as a single person's hash, it was in a security proof for the fundamental OS
12:06:32 <mroman_> Doesn't git sorta have this problem?
12:06:47 <mroman_> I haven't read about what bad things will happen if a hash collides
12:07:14 <mroman_> I possibly have but already forgotten it.
12:07:14 <oerjan> yeah there are lots of places where it would be bad, surely
12:07:44 <mroman_> "I'll be already dead by then so who cares" - L. Torvalds
12:08:57 <oerjan> that can't be an actual quote, too polite
12:10:42 <oerjan> you are both welcome to prove me wrong with actual links
12:12:44 <mroman_> I'm not going to google "fuck l. torvalds"
12:13:00 <oren> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_36yNWw_07g
12:13:33 <oren> thats what came up, torvalds saying "Nvidia, fuck you"
12:14:59 <oren> https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/12/23/75 "Mauro, SHUT THE FUCK UP!" -- L. Torvalds
12:15:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43056&oldid=42965 * SuperJedi224 * (+21) The imports disappeared.
12:15:55 <oerjan> oren: that was coherent, doesn't count hth
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12:23:13 <oren> your compiler is pure
12:23:14 <oren> and utter *shit*.
12:23:27 <oren> -- L. Torvalds, to the GCC team
12:24:28 <oerjan> at least it's pure, has to count for something
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12:25:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43057&oldid=43056 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) Fixed an implementation error.
12:31:15 <oren> a search for linus torvalds shit led to
12:31:27 <oren> Mormonism as a religion is a fairly close second to the Scientologists in the race to "Batshit Crazy" -- L. Torvalds
12:33:59 <oren> . Hurd will be out in a year (or two, or next month, who knows), -- L. Torvalds 1991
12:34:28 <oren> I think it has a beta now, right?
12:37:15 <oren> In short: just say NO TO DRUGS, and maybe you won’t end up like the Hurd people. -- L. Torvalds 2001
12:42:00 <oren> If any Intel people are listening to this and you had anything to do with ACPI, shoot yourself now, before you reproduce. -- L. Torvalds
12:43:24 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43058&oldid=43057 * SuperJedi224 * (+89) /* Example programs */
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13:08:37 <mroman_> arguably intel architecture is probably worse than it could be
13:11:09 <APic> And Cyrix was the Hell of a Mess.
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13:25:31 <mroman_> what's the opposite of altruism?
13:26:56 <fizzie> Antonyms of noun altruism
13:26:57 <fizzie> altruism, selflessness
13:26:58 <fizzie> Antonym of egoism (Sense 2)
13:27:01 <fizzie> =>egoism, egocentrism, self-interest, self-concern, self-centeredness
13:28:42 <fizzie> 1. malevolence, malignity -- (wishing evil to others)
13:28:42 <fizzie> 2. malevolence, malevolency, malice -- (the quality of threatening evil)
13:29:10 <mroman_> I'm looking for a word for "doing good without external motivation"
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13:30:40 <mroman_> that is, if such a pure thing exists
13:30:44 <mroman_> and isn't some form of compensation
13:31:17 <fizzie> "The opposite" is not really well-defined, since it's unclear whether the opposite should invert the "good" part, the "external motivation" part, or both.
13:49:09 <mroman_> doing good without egoistic benefits, doing evil without egoistic benefits.
13:50:30 <mroman_> kinda like where mother theresa is helping children just for the sake of helping them (altruistic)
13:50:46 <mroman_> father theresa is just robbing people for the sake of robbing them (....?)
13:53:24 <mroman_> or punching them in the face
13:53:29 <mroman_> just doing general evil of some sort
13:53:50 <mroman_> or polluting the environment
13:54:20 <Taneb> Pointlessly malicious?
13:54:27 <Taneb> I do not know if such a word exists...
13:54:49 <mroman_> If there's such a thing as pointlessly kind
13:54:56 <mroman_> then there must be a pointlessly malicous
13:55:04 <fizzie> Perhaps not, but "maltruistic" would sound good.
13:55:22 <fizzie> Even if the construction would make no sense.
13:55:57 <mroman_> People seem to think that you can do good without involving your ego
13:56:09 <mroman_> but refuse to believe that you can do evil with the same motivation
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13:57:53 <mroman_> but "maltruistic" would make a good word
13:59:11 <mroman_> although there are already some google results for it
13:59:31 <mroman_> and it seems to be defined as "fake altruism"
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14:03:42 <mroman_> I'm also a terrible philosopher.
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14:04:34 <mroman_> fungot: Are you interested in Philosophy?
14:04:34 <fungot> mroman_: i've been thinking about fnord, other than gambit doesn't have a whois referral pointing at a dead-end position in life.
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14:26:03 <mroman_> fungot: Do you know Peter Popoff?
14:26:03 <fungot> mroman_: any particular code you were reading was not the connotation i had a netgear first, but for ash it happens in other areas
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15:17:53 <fizzie> I liked the "whois referral pointing at a dead-end position in life" part.
15:18:00 <fizzie> Although it's perhaps a bit cruel.
15:18:13 <fizzie> fungot: You'll need to have some niceness programmed in you.
15:18:13 <fungot> fizzie: cannot open input file: invalid argument"
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15:21:46 <FireFly> fungot: I think people would appreciate if you refuted the argument instead of just dismissing it as invalid
15:21:46 <fungot> FireFly: looking at it... it has a typo. i'll fix that
15:22:24 <FireFly> oh no. fungot's growing self-sentient, fixing typos in its own source
15:33:47 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43059&oldid=43055 * Rdococ * (+886) /* Examples */
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16:07:41 <Lyka> hopefully fungot is not synet.
16:07:42 <fungot> Lyka: 1-n words of mostly human language. i was thinking about that the next pixels according to the error somehow
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16:47:50 <zzo38> I remember I had a book once that described a chess variant known as "Emperor Wars". (I don't know if it may have been the only copy (it was made of plain paper, probably printed by computer or typewriter, did not mention any author's name or copyright notices, had hand-written corrections in it), and I don't know where it is now.)
16:59:22 <int-e> fungot: tell us more about those pixels
16:59:22 <fungot> int-e: unleash your creative side shine, while painting and marking your keyboard the way you put that in your average defun?
16:59:32 <fungot> Available: agora alice c64 ct darwin discworld enron europarl ff7 fisher fungot homestuck ic irc* iwcs jargon lovecraft nethack oots pa qwantz sms speeches ss wp youtube
17:02:26 <tswett> Hey, people who have [y] in their native languages!
17:02:36 <tswett> To me, an English speaker, [y] sounds like a cross between [u] and [i].
17:03:30 <tswett> Would you say the same?
17:32:53 <J_Arcane> tswett: speaking from Finnish, I wouldn't quite say that.
17:35:11 <nortti> y and i are articulated in the same place, and the height and roundedness of y and u is the same
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18:32:11 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/octopus%20language/octopus_0000b%20commands.pdf
18:33:01 <Lyka> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/98841263/octopus%20language/octopus_0000b.zip (the arduino source code. a *.ino is ascii text)
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19:09:42 <Lyka> crap...have to double the amount of cache variables
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19:26:14 <fizzie> tswett: At least I'd put [y] "between" [u] and [i] if I had to sort them on a "scale". And also what nortti said.
19:28:25 <fizzie> oerjan: The problem you mentioned was kind of a known one, in the sense that I set up the backup address knowing people using https:// would have certificate problems, and sort of vaguely expecting it might cause something like that even when the regular domain name returned. Anyway, things should be back to normal now.
19:29:40 <fizzie> (I could've generated an esolangs.zem.fi certificate and have it serve that to anyone using the backup address and supporting SNI, but that felt like quite a hassle for up-for-less-than-a-day workaround.)
19:30:07 <oerjan> as a norwegian, i'd put [y] between [ʉ] and [i]
19:31:08 <oerjan> and [ʉ] between [y] and [u]
19:33:42 <oerjan> and i suspect swedes do the same
19:44:32 <mroman_> fungot: so... how's that Philosophy going?
19:44:32 <fungot> mroman_: you can get a correct result, namely ( 3 ( l 3 i 1)
19:51:48 <fizzie> Apparently it's solved.
19:54:52 <oren> So I think the standard should be Artist - [Album -] Song [feat. Vocalist] [(DJ Blah mix)] [(from Game)].mp3
19:55:20 <oren> where [] indicates that it might not be there
19:58:38 <oren> I'm not sure if that will eliminate all conflicts, but it should come close
20:07:12 <fizzie> I doubt that'd work for classical music very well.
20:07:39 <fizzie> Although I guess you can stuff multiple things in the 'Artist' and 'Song' fields.
20:08:50 <fizzie> It also doesn't really disambiguate between different remasterings of the same song. Unless the "DJ Blah mix" field counts for that, too.
20:09:29 <oren> I guess you could put in (Radio Mix) or whatever
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20:11:14 <oren> right now I'm just manually changing things to roughly that format... I'm not sure how to account for songs that I literally have zero information... the mp3 has no info and is named the url of a long deleted youtube video
20:11:35 <fizzie> Play it back and run SoundHound on it.
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20:12:33 <fizzie> I'd say "run Google Music Search on it" since I kind of (very tangentially) work on that thing, but I can't honestly recommend it all that much -- it didn't even recognize this year's Eurovision songs! (SoundHound did.)
20:19:27 <oren> Oh geez... now that I'm playing it. it's a nightcored version of whatever the hell it is
20:21:15 <oren> so I guess I can put it on my 3ds, open soundcloud on the samsung, and play it at various speeds until it recognizes it?
20:21:58 <oren> (The Nintendo 3DS has the ability to adjest the speed of a song with the stylus)
20:26:47 -!- Sprocklem has joined.
20:30:28 <oren> Hm... and searching for lyrics "jungle jungle jungle jungle jungle jungle jungle jungle jungle" doesn't work either
20:37:01 <oren> It's a song from the Bollywood horror film "Agyaat"
20:38:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43060&oldid=43059 * Rdococ * (+18) edited examples
20:38:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43061&oldid=43060 * Rdococ * (-3) /* 99 bottles of beer */
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21:23:01 <Phantom_Hoover> man why did i avoid reading about homotopy type theory for so long
21:23:53 <oerjan> oh no they got Phantom_Hoover
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21:25:56 <shachaf> oerjan: that was pretty predictable hth
21:26:07 <shachaf> my oerjan simulator is complete
21:26:08 <oerjan> shachaf: i thought so too
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21:27:24 <shachaf> oerjan: why do you hate hott
21:30:06 <Phantom_Hoover> oerjan, do you not then know why there are so many fucking polynomials
21:31:06 <Koen_> when I was in high school I thought polynomials all looked either like x^2 or x^3
21:31:22 <Taneb> I think I have done quite well on my computability and complexity exam
21:31:34 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, you can have polynomials over any semiring
21:31:40 <Taneb> There are a lot of semirings
21:31:44 <Taneb> Hence a lot of polynomials
21:31:50 <Koen_> then one day I realized x(x-1)(x-2) had three roots and you could not have three roots while looking like x2 or x3
21:32:07 <Phantom_Hoover> Taneb, yes but that doesn't explain why they're all tied up in knots
21:32:18 <Koen_> I've never believed in santa claus so I guess that realization was kind of the big thing
21:34:45 <oerjan> the three roots of santa claus
21:41:32 <oren> Koen: Most of them do in physics
21:42:27 <Koen_> believe in santa claus?
21:42:35 <Koen_> yeah physicists have all kind of weird beliefs
21:42:54 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43062&oldid=43035 * Rdococ * (+144) /* Game */lol
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21:47:02 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: it's the followers - their empty eyes collapsed into a point
21:51:32 <Phantom_Hoover> otoh you get articles from them talking about how hard it's been to define the n-sphere or prove that the torus is the product of two circles
21:51:52 <Phantom_Hoover> and it does not inspire confidence in its practicality
21:52:43 <Koen_> the very straightforward parametric equation of the torus is literally a product of two circles
21:52:49 <Koen_> how is that hard to prove?
21:53:42 <oerjan> presumably homotopists don't accept that definition
21:54:39 <Koen_> is it too constructivistish? :(
21:54:57 <Phantom_Hoover> you define the torus in hott in terms of its homotopies
21:55:45 <Koen_> so I guess what they meant is "it's been hard to prove that our definition of the torus defines in fact a torus"
21:55:59 <Phantom_Hoover> so it's a point a, two loops p and q from a to a, and a homotopy h from q.p to p.q
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22:00:35 <Taneb> Hmm, I am a little annoyed
22:00:54 <Lyka> was that you who helped out with the fourfuck page?
22:01:39 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, because people are complaining that the exam I just did was way too hard
22:01:52 <Taneb> It was a little more difficult than the past papers, sure, but not that much more
22:02:35 <b_jonas> Phantom_Hoover: no. computational complexity exam or some such thing I believe.
22:02:58 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, computability and complexity, so, yes, #esoteric
22:03:24 <Taneb> Questions involved "Is n^n in O(n!)? (3 marks)"
22:03:45 -!- hilquias has quit (Remote host closed the connection).
22:03:56 <Taneb> Phantom_Hoover, the answer is "no
22:04:34 <Taneb> I am not sure what Simpson's theorem is
22:06:16 <b_jonas> Taneb: people are always complaining about every exam
22:07:16 <zzo38> In my opinion LADSPA is a bit too simple and LV2 is a bit too complicated but I have the new idea of something similar actually
22:09:01 <Koen_> that's a bit overkill
22:09:33 <Koen_> n! is n * things smaller than n and n^n is n * things not smaller than n
22:10:35 <Taneb> Although the last question was a bit nasty, I thought
22:11:16 <Taneb> "Language L_1 is in P, and Language L_2 is neither \emptyset or \Sigma*. Prove that L_1 can be reduced to L_2 in polynomial time"
22:11:16 <Lyka> i have a hello world, a 0 to 99, a 0 to 999, a fibonacci below 65536, and a non-terminating cat
22:13:45 <Lyka> i'm strting to doubt that the language is a brainfuck-derivitive
22:15:16 <Koen_> Lyka: hmmm are you talking about fourfuck? as far as i'm aware the author hasn't disclosed much more than "it's loosely based on brainfuck" and "commands are four characters long" so I don't know how you would have all those programs
22:15:19 <Phantom_Hoover> Koen_, just showing it's smaller isn't enough, you need to show it overwhelms constant multiplication
22:15:40 <Koen_> Phantom_Hoover: one of the smaller factors is a 1
22:15:42 <Koen_> that's much smaller
22:15:56 <shachaf> Is that like http://spl.smugmug.com/Humor/Lambdacats/i-dVj9xxz/1/O/recurcat.gif ?
22:16:00 <Lyka> Koen_: fourfuck is my language
22:16:30 <shachaf> Or like http://cameronhunter.github.io/flight-edge/ ?
22:16:59 <Koen_> Lyka: well, the things I added are mere suggestions; if this is your language, feel free to edit the page as much as you like
22:17:10 <Koen_> including by removing or adding categories
22:18:07 <Koen_> Taneb: correct me if I understand your problem wrong
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22:19:21 <Koen_> Taneb: but "L_1 can be reduced to L_2 in polynomial time" is the same as "if I have a machine M2 that recognizes L2, then there exists a polynomial-time machine M such that M \circ M2 recognizes L1"
22:19:36 <Koen_> or something like that
22:19:45 <Taneb> I may have misremembered the question
22:19:52 <Koen_> and we already know L1 is polynomial-time
22:19:59 <Koen_> so you can just discard your M2 machine
22:20:40 <Lyka> which should i do: leave the page alone and focus on getting the language to work for things other than fibonacci output and hello world? or delete the page and remove the link for now?
22:21:13 <Lyka> i don't work well having to document every step
22:21:14 <Koen_> well in my humble opinion, designing a language is much more interesting that editing a wiki page
22:21:19 <Taneb> Koen_, hang on, let me check I am not misremembering the question, because that is backwards from what I put
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22:22:44 <Lyka> without objection, i'm gonna delete the page from the wii and remove the link in language list
22:23:51 <Lyka> th language is changing too much
22:25:55 <Taneb> Koen_, http://i.imgur.com/QC3ecg3.jpg
22:26:27 <Koen_> okay, well I hold by what I said
22:26:48 <Koen_> "L1 is P" means you can solve L1 in P-time
22:26:52 <Taneb> I sort of interpreted it the other way round to you
22:27:24 <Taneb> Because L2 is non-empty, there is at least one string in it, say "a"
22:27:35 <Taneb> Because L2 is not full, there is at least one string in it, say "b"
22:27:46 <Koen_> not in it* but okay
22:28:08 <Taneb> Now, for a string w, if we define w' := if w is in P then a else b
22:28:15 <Taneb> (which we can do in polynomial time)
22:28:23 <Taneb> Then w is in L1 if and only if w' is in L2
22:28:55 <Taneb> That is what I said
22:29:19 <Taneb> (in my exam. that is
22:29:24 <Koen_> can you check "if x is in P" in polynomial time?
22:30:07 <Koen_> well okay that sounds great
22:31:09 <Taneb> It seems to use every detail given in the question, which is a good sign
22:31:18 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fourfuck]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43063&oldid=43047 * Lesidhetree * (+0) Removing my name...
22:31:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Lesidhetree]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43064&oldid=43049 * Lesidhetree * (-21) Removing my name...
22:32:08 <Taneb> ...64% of this exam was "What does this Turing machine do?"
22:32:55 <Taneb> MDream, in more detail than that, unfortunately
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22:33:19 <Koen_> what value??? that's the question
22:33:41 <Taneb> Some of them instead recognized a language!
22:33:55 <Koen_> Taneb: I guess I didn't really know the formal definition of language reduction, only the idea of problem reduction
22:34:08 <Koen_> Taneb: they computed a boolean value didn't they
22:34:49 <Koen_> well "accept / reject / don't halt" isn't strictly speaking boolean maybe
22:35:08 <Taneb> Koen_, the one that recognized a language was total
22:35:47 <Koen_> they they did do compute a value!!
22:36:09 <Taneb> Anyway, I need to revise for my Groups, Rings, and Fields exam on Thursday...
22:36:29 <Koen_> surprise interrogation!
22:36:40 <Koen_> what's a syllow subgroup
22:37:08 <Taneb> It's a subgroup of order p^n where p is prime and n is the multiplicity of p in the order of the group!
22:37:10 <Koen_> or sylow or howevermany L there are
22:38:06 <Taneb> A subring I of a ring R such that for a in I and b in R, ab is in I
22:39:01 <Taneb> A ring whose units are all elements other than zero
22:39:26 <Koen_> does "unit" mean "inversible element"?
22:39:38 <Koen_> I thought the unit was the neutral element for multiplication
22:39:43 <Taneb> a is a unit if there exists a b such that ab = 1
22:39:53 <Taneb> Koen_, I'm just using the definitions I'm given, I am afraid
22:39:59 <Koen_> yup that's good enough
22:40:11 <Taneb> (a and b are in the ring, of course)
22:40:30 * oerjan carefully points out the ring should probably be commutative
22:40:48 <oren> Lord of the rings
22:40:49 <Koen_> I'm guessing some courses assume rings are or are not commutative so that would be the afraidful definitions
22:41:16 <oerjan> my guess was the same except with "fields"
22:41:47 <Koen_> Taneb: you should probably know the chinese theorem as well
22:41:58 <Koen_> it's not gonna be in the exam but it's a fun story for parties
22:42:21 <oerjan> are you missing a remainder or is this something i haven't heard of
22:42:31 <Taneb> oerjan, I think you *might* get commutativity for free?
22:42:48 <Taneb> You need commutativity
22:42:49 <oerjan> Taneb: no, there are "skew fields" or "division rings"
22:42:59 <Koen_> err the french name is "théorème chinois", that might not be the english name though
22:43:19 <Taneb> oerjan, you don't if it's finite, apparently
22:43:42 <Koen_> oerjan: it says if you've got an unknown number N but you know two remainders of N by say a and b (and a and b are distinct and big enough) then you can calculate N
22:44:00 <Koen_> and the legend says it was used by a chinese general to count his soldiers
22:44:01 <oerjan> Koen_: "chinese remainder theorem"
22:44:10 <Koen_> then I was indeed missing a remainder
22:44:33 <Taneb> I am going to bed now
22:44:51 * oerjan used that on the one question he managed to solve when in the IMO
22:45:02 <Taneb> Thanks for the pop quiz, Koen_, it did help
22:45:35 <Koen_> they're is probably more to know about silow subgroups than their definition, though
22:46:27 -!- boily has joined.
22:47:06 <oerjan> also the chinese remainder theorem is an important (although not the hard) part of the theorem that you can do integer division in logarithmic space
22:47:10 <lambdabot> CYUL 262200Z 23015KT 30SM FEW050TCU BKN240 28/17 A2997 RMK TCU1CI6 SLP150 DENSITY ALT 1500FT
22:47:27 <lambdabot> ENVA 262150Z 27010KT 9999 FEW035 BKN049 09/05 Q1010 RMK WIND 670FT 28012KT
22:49:44 <Koen_> oerjan: erm we learned how to do integer division in primary school didn't we?
22:49:53 <oerjan> Koen_: not in logarithmic space
22:50:12 <Koen_> well we used digits
22:51:01 <oerjan> yes, a quadratic amount of them, i am guessing
22:52:01 <oerjan> (although with mutable memory you can relatively easy reduce it to linear)
22:53:52 <Koen_> hey, I was wondering whether studying mixed time/space complexity was a thing?
22:54:33 -!- lleu has joined.
22:54:42 <Koen_> there are a lot of problems that can be solved in either very small space or very small time but the usual method to reduce space is to keep forgetting what you've already done and redoing everything a quintillion times
22:54:53 <oren> Hmm, mutable paper would be nice, like if erasers ersaed, as opposed to just spreading the graphite acros the page
22:55:28 <Koen_> aquarel erasers do
22:56:14 <oerjan> Koen_: hm i am thinking of path reachability, it can be done in polynomial time or in log^2 space
22:56:28 <oerjan> but can you get both at the same time?
22:56:49 <Koen_> yes I think that one was the problem that made me wonder
22:56:49 <oerjan> (it's the canonical NLOGSPACE-complete problem)
22:58:57 <Koen_> oren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kneaded_eraser
22:59:49 <Koen_> it's more suited in painting when you want to erase the sketch without leaving pencil marks
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23:10:12 * Sgeo saw CESU-8 today :(
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23:19:35 <oren> Sgeo: my condolences
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23:20:56 <oren> Cones with very large cone angles make good paper fans
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23:33:17 <zzo38> Is this document clear to you? http://zzo38computer.org/textfile/miscellaneous/rdf/c_rdf
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23:43:29 <boily> Sgeo: Sgello. what's a CESU-8?
23:45:40 <zzo38> CESU-8 is encoding the UTF-16 codes of Unicode texts into UTF-8.
23:51:15 <oren> In other words, codes outside BMP end up as 6 bytes instead of 4.
23:55:39 <zzo38> Yes, that is how it is work
23:56:18 <pikhq> It's the UTF-8 encoding algorithm on UTF-16 units. Mostly a consequence of bad UTF-16/UTF-8 implementations and backwards compat with 'em.
23:58:08 <lambdabot> KATL 262352Z 00000KT 10SM -RA FEW005 BKN120 BKN150 OVC200 20/18 A3021 RMK AO2 SLP221 P0002 60108 T02000178 10289 20194 55007 $
23:58:44 <zzo38> A program I have written called "utftovlq" has no built-in CESU-8 support; however, you can convert between proper UTF-8 and CESU-8 by using a pipe of the program twice. If you tell it to convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then back again, you get proper UTF-8 out. If you tell it to convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then RAW-16 to UTF-8, the output will be in CESU-8 format.
23:59:45 <quintopia> (the rain is incessant this part of summer. thunderstorms daily.)
00:00:23 -!- mitchs_ has left.
00:00:58 <boily> hezzo38. helloren. that is disgusting!
00:01:24 <boily> it was pouring here yesterday, with rainy rain and watery drops.
00:01:37 <boily> your metar must be one of the longest I've ever seen!
00:01:48 <boily> (and your station's still in need of some maintenance)
00:02:08 <boily> tomorrow, the clouds will be pokable. no bike for me then.
00:02:18 <boily> the `$' at the end.
00:02:35 <boily> something like that, yes.
00:03:34 <quintopia> i have no idea what all that stuff after RMK means
00:04:36 <quintopia> so have you got a functional fast computron ytet
00:06:54 <boily> AO2 is something. SLP is Sea Level Pressure (1022.1 hPa). P0002 is also something. 60108 is definitely something. but T02000178 is something else, whereas 10289 is approximatively something. I think 20194 is something, and so is 55007.
00:07:39 <boily> not yet. social life (and not quite social life) got in the way.
00:07:47 <quintopia> half of those things could be random garbage
00:08:12 <boily> those fields have meaning; I just can't remember them as they are US specific.
00:08:38 <boily> something to do with temperature and pressure changes in the last hours, cumulative precipitations, etc...
00:09:21 <lambdabot> CYVR 270000Z 22008KT 20SM FEW030 FEW045 SCT250 18/13 A3001 RMK SC1SC1CS2 TR AC SLP163 DENSITY ALT 200FT
00:10:15 <boily> zzo38: west coast?
00:10:38 <zzo38> Yes, CYVR is Vancouver airport.
00:10:51 <lambdabot> KOAK 262353Z 27013KT 10SM FEW020 17/09 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP156 T01670094 10183 20133 57007
00:11:10 <boily> zzo38: I meant to ask: you're there? I admit the question was poorly phrased.
00:11:26 <zzo38> Yes I live near there
00:11:34 <boily> quintopia: see, even shachaf has the Mysterious Number Fields.
00:11:47 <shachaf> every METAR field is a mysterious number field hth
00:11:48 * boily checks the The File just to make sure...
00:12:08 <boily> indeed. zzo38 lives over there.
00:12:22 <shachaf> boily: zzo38's whereabouts are revealed in the whois database hth
00:13:06 <zzo38> The airport is a local call from here and so is the studio that make Slugterra television shows (I did call them, and they asked me if I was calling from Canada)
00:13:08 <boily> shachaf: yes, but this is too straightforward.
00:13:32 <zzo38> The mailing address in the WHOIS will reach me as long as you put my name (Aaron Black) on it.
00:13:38 -!- variable has changed nick to function.
00:13:57 <shachaf> What sort of mail would I send you?
00:14:11 <zzo38> Probably nothing; I am just mentioning it in case it is ever important.
00:16:45 <quintopia> also where does that nick come from?
00:17:49 <zzo38> I do not remember where the nick comes from. I called the TV show to ask how to buy the tapes
00:18:34 <boily> quintopia: I now know what to mail you next.
00:18:55 <boily> quintopia: I tried phoning zzo38, but either it's not the right number, or he doesn't want to answer.
00:19:17 <quintopia> boily: there is no good reason for him to answer
00:19:26 <quintopia> boily: he can answer any question you have right here
00:20:12 <zzo38> Yes, I can answer the question here. The telephone number listed on the WHOIS is not guaranteed to reach me, and I do not recommend using it.
00:20:17 <quintopia> zzo38: i can't see myself being interested in this tv show
00:20:38 <zzo38> If you don't like it, that's OK, but I and my brother do like it even though it is a bit strange kind of TV show
00:21:08 <quintopia> zzo38: is your brother younger than you
00:21:12 <zzo38> It isn't absolutely the best kind of television show, but, it does seem to have better captions than some
00:21:27 <zzo38> I don't want to tell you my brother's age
00:21:45 <quintopia> i don't know your age, so telling me whether he is younger wouldn't tell me his age
00:22:36 <zzo38> I know, but still I don't want to tell you.
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04:01:11 <zzo38> Which are the most common internet language codes?
04:06:07 <Sgeo> "The Oracle database actually uses CESU-8 for its "UTF8" character set."
04:06:51 <zzo38> Then they should not call it "UTF8" since that can cause confusion
04:06:55 <oren> what happens if you input a four-byte code for a high-plane character?
04:09:17 <Sgeo> How pathetic is it that a type of bug is so common it's effectively its own encoding?
04:15:20 <pikhq> So many stuff stuck using UTF-16.
04:18:17 <oren> `echo "a=%c1 _pa a=%8F _pa" | scrip7
04:18:18 <HackEgo> "a=%c1 _pa a=%8F _pa" | scrip7
04:18:27 <oren> `run echo "a=%c1 _pa a=%8F _pa" | scrip7
04:18:28 <HackEgo> -63 \ 18:Can only logarithm numbers.
04:19:32 <oren> `run echo "a=%c1 _pa a=%8f _pa" | scrip7
04:19:53 <oren> `run echo "a=%c1 _.a a=%8f _.a" | scrip7
04:20:16 <oren> Theoretically, the above is a capital O
04:20:40 <oren> `run echo "a=%c0 _.a a=%80 _.a" | scrip7
04:21:06 <oren> Ok, the above isn't right!
04:21:23 <oren> `run echo "a=%c0 _.a a=%80 _.a" | scrip7
04:21:42 <oren> `run echo "a=%c0 _.a a=%81 _.a" | scrip7
04:22:18 <oren> I wonder why an overlong encoding of U+0000 gets displayed like that?
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04:24:51 <zzo38> My opinion is that CLI messages, commands, protocols, etc should be in American English (even though I am Canadian) but that documentation and GUIs should be localized to whatever is your language (e.g. Canadian) (I mean documentation for CLIs can be localized too). What is your opinion of this kind of things?
04:29:51 <MDude> CLI messages should be in Sarus.
04:30:56 <MDude> Or, specifically in a variant of english based on military radio communication.
04:36:29 <oren> CLI messages should be in the user's language as far as is possible, but perhaps each message should be repeated in formal english for clarity of technical terms which are lacking in many lanuages.
04:38:07 <oren> (In japanese most of the technical terms are katakanized english anyway, so maybe for japanese I wouldn't bother)
04:39:46 <zzo38> No I think they should be ASCII
04:43:47 <MDude> With Sarus, you don't even need multiple characters. Just 8 font colors.
04:44:33 <oren> Would it be possible to color the english message with the sarus message
04:48:33 <pikhq> oren: Japanese technical terms are funny...
04:49:01 <pikhq> oren: They're either katakanized English, or creative use of Japanese Chinese-origin morphemes to calque Latin.
04:53:37 <MDude> Only if there's a tem in Sarus that works.
04:54:39 <MDude> Sarus has a very small, context-dependant vocabulary.
04:57:09 <MDude> Probalby more suited to being a form of assemlber.
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08:02:10 <coppro> (not on a computer where I can turn that into katakana easily, but try searching the kana)
08:02:29 <coppro> `unicode (KATAKANA LETTER RI) (KATAKANA LETTER NI) (KATAKANA LETTER A)
08:02:44 <HackEgo> cat: unicode: No such file or directory
08:02:49 <HackEgo> #!/usr/bin/env python \ # -*- encoding: utf-8 -*- \ import re \ import sys, os \ import unicodedata \ def l(c): m = re.match('(?:U[+])?([0-9a-f]{1,5})$', c, re.I); return unicodedata.lookup(c) if m is None else unichr(int(m.group(1),16)) \ try: \ print u''.join(map(l, sys.argv[1:])).encode('utf-8') \ except KeyError: \ os.execvp("multico
08:03:39 <coppro> `unicode "KATAKANA LETTER RI" "KATAKANA LETTER NI" "KATAKANA LETTER A"
08:04:36 <coppro> `unicode U+30EA U+30CB U+30A2
08:05:28 <coppro> `unicode U+30ea U+30cb U+30a2
08:15:23 <augur> http://languagengine.co/blog/sierpinski-triangles-in-bitwise-logic
08:15:25 <augur> if anyone's interested
08:15:39 <augur> i think i showed the channel this a long long time ago but i decided to write a blog post about it now, so
08:15:46 <augur> with interactive things!
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08:43:06 <augur> myname: isnt it? its such a cool little thing
08:43:41 <myname> i am tempted to play around with it myself
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10:32:13 <fizzie> `run unicode "KATAKANA LETTER RI" "KATAKANA LETTER NI" "KATAKANA LETTER A"
10:32:27 <fizzie> coppro: ^ -- the thing with `foo passing everything in one argument strikes again.
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10:33:03 <fizzie> (It's useful, up until the point when it's not.)
10:39:30 <Taneb> I find it a little weird we can talk about the GCD in an unordered ring
10:42:33 <b_jonas> Taneb: call it "special common divisor" if you prefer
10:43:02 <Taneb> b_jonas, I don't mind the terminology, it just shakes my notion of how it's defined a little :)
10:45:09 <b_jonas> it's special because all common divisors divide it
10:47:54 <fungot> mroman_: that's right! he'll show you! he'll show you! he'll show you all the java libraries with sisc. must be at least.
10:48:44 <HackEgo> [U+0061 LATIN SMALL LETTER A]
10:48:50 <mroman_> 1unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A
10:48:52 <mroman_> `unicode LATIN SMALL LETTER A
10:49:23 <HackEgo> U+30DD KATAKANA LETTER PO \ UTF-8: e3 83 9d UTF-16BE: 30dd Decimal: ポ \ ポ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ Decomposition: 30DB 309A
10:49:33 <mroman_> `unicode KATAKANA LETTER RO
10:49:58 <HackEgo> U+30A4 KATAKANA LETTER I \ UTF-8: e3 82 a4 UTF-16BE: 30a4 Decimal: イ \ イ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
10:50:04 <mroman_> `unicode KATAKANA LETTER A
10:50:19 <mroman_> `unicode KATAKANA LETTER A; KATAKANA LETTER PO
10:53:36 <HackEgo> [U+30A2 KATAKANA LETTER A] [U+30ED KATAKANA LETTER RO] [U+30A4 KATAKANA LETTER I] [U+30A2 KATAKANA LETTER A] [U+30DD KATAKANA LETTER PO]
10:53:52 <mroman_> `unicode [KATAKANA LETTER A] [KATAKANA LETTER I]
10:53:53 <HackEgo> U+0009 <control> \ UTF-8: 09 UTF-16BE: 0009 Decimal: 	 \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: S (Segment Separator) \ \ U+000B <control> \ UTF-8: 0b UTF-16BE: 000b Decimal:  \ \ Category: Cc (Other, Control) \ Bidi: S (Segment Separator) \ \ U+000D <control> \ UTF-8: 0d UTF-16BE: 000d Decimal: \
10:54:24 <mroman_> `uniencode [KATAKANA LETTER A] [KATAKANA LETTER I]
10:54:24 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: uniencode: not found
10:56:28 <boily> mrhelloman_. I think it's easier to install an IME and type it the way it is :/
10:57:18 <boily> (of course, the geek value greatly decreases from an unbelievable unicode-long-names-over-irc-bot to the run-of-the-mill IME.)
11:18:27 <mroman_> fatal error: uchar.h: No such file or directory
11:19:35 <int-e> seems you have no C11 support
11:21:38 <mroman_> --std=c11 is accepted though
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11:27:19 <int-e> well, s/no/incomplete/
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12:05:06 <coppro> anyway, I went and saw the リニア. it was cool
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12:29:41 <fizzie> mroman_: I *just* demonstrated above how it can do multiple.
12:29:55 <fizzie> `run unicode 'KATAKANA LETTER A' 'KATAKANA LETTER PO'
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12:31:20 <fizzie> (I guess it needs a DWIM wrapper that guesstimates a separator, ignores surrounding markers etc.)
12:34:20 <b_jonas> `unicode PLUS SIGN; BELL; WUZXNOQNKA 8
12:34:51 <b_jonas> `unicode "PLUS SIGN" "BELL" "WUZXNOQNKA 8"
12:35:13 <mroman_> `run unicode "PLUS SIGN" "MINUS SIGN"
12:35:19 <b_jonas> `run unicode "PLUS SIGN" "BELL" "WUZXNOQNKA 8"
12:35:28 <mroman_> omg new brainfuck derivative!
12:35:34 <HackEgo> U+005B LEFT SQUARE BRACKET \ UTF-8: 5b UTF-16BE: 005b Decimal: [ \ [ \ Category: Ps (Punctuation, Open) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored
12:35:36 <HackEgo> U+005D RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET \ UTF-8: 5d UTF-16BE: 005d Decimal: ] \ ] \ Category: Pe (Punctuation, Close) \ Bidi: ON (Other Neutrals) \ Character is mirrored
12:35:43 <b_jonas> it's called HYPHEN-MINUS by the way
12:36:04 <b_jonas> MINUS SIGN is the wrong one
12:36:16 <mroman_> "LEFT SQUARE BRACKET" "HYPHEN-MINUS" "RIGHT SQUARE BRACKET"
12:37:49 <b_jonas> and "MINUS SIGN" is a comment, right?
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12:59:12 <mroman_> comments are very bloaty though
12:59:26 <mroman_> "LATIN CAPITAL LETTER C" "LATIN SMALL LETER O" and so on
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13:37:32 <Taneb> I am feeling a little more confident for my Groups, Rings, and Fields exam tomorrow
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13:43:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Folders]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43065&oldid=41760 * Rottytooth * (+111) added note about encoding
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14:19:15 <oerjan> <Taneb> I find it a little weird we can talk about the GCD in an unordered ring <-- it's actually a special kind of categorical product (in a partial pre-order category), and the fact it's not necessarily unique is the same as categorical products/coproducts/universal properties being defined only up to isomorphism
14:19:39 <Taneb> Oooh, category theory
14:19:43 <Taneb> It gets everywhere
14:19:49 <Taneb> Just like Noam Chomsky
14:21:38 <b_jonas> wait… categorical product? … that sounds plausible, I dunno
14:21:54 <oerjan> b_jonas: morphism between a and b iff a divides b
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14:22:05 <b_jonas> but I'd just think of that as a lattice operation
14:22:18 <oerjan> yes, and those are also that kind of product
14:22:22 <b_jonas> where the inequality in the lattice is given by divides
14:22:27 <Taneb> b_jonas, all lattices are categories
14:22:44 <oerjan> b_jonas: the thing is, lattices usually are antisymmetric, that's the thing we drop here
14:24:07 <oerjan> i.e. you can have two "meets" that are not equal
14:24:09 <b_jonas> oerjan: you need the power of categorical product when there's more than one element that each have a homomorphism to the others, to make the product more specific (hopefully unique) than the max in the partial order or homomorphisms
14:25:10 <oerjan> b_jonas: i'm just saying gcd in a ring does not give a lattice because it's a preorder, not an order
14:25:16 <b_jonas> this is useful in the category of graphs with graph homomorphisms where the categorical product gives the cartesian product (up to graph isomorphism), which is more specific than what you just get from partial order (which gives it up to homomorphic equivalence)
14:26:16 <oerjan> (also it's not necessarily always defined)
14:27:24 <b_jonas> sure, you can't have gcd on all rings
14:40:09 <oerjan> <Taneb> I am feeling a little more confident for my Groups, Rings, and Fields exam tomorrow <-- just make sure it's really tomorrow twh
14:41:16 * oerjan still vaguely remembers sitting in the university canteen when he was supposed to have a group theory exam
14:42:47 <Taneb> oerjan, I am not making that mistake again
14:43:24 <Taneb> Well, I got the wrong time for an exam
14:43:35 <Taneb> Thought it was a Wednesday, it was actually a Tuesday
14:43:39 <Taneb> Jeez, that was two years ago
14:43:45 <Taneb> Three years ago, even
14:44:21 <Taneb> 28th of May at 9 AM (presumably BST)
14:46:39 <Taneb> I know at least which building that is in
14:46:49 <Taneb> And I only know of one room suitable for lectures in there
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15:21:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43066 * Rdococ * (+624) Goto statement considered esoteric
15:26:48 <SopaXT> e.g RA = 1, GOTO printH, RA = 2, GOTO printE, ...
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16:54:20 <lambdabot> CYYZ 271600Z 22014G24KT 15SM BKN045 BKN250 27/16 A2997 RMK CU6CI1 SLP145 DENSITY ALT 1900FT
16:58:33 <oren> Yeah, I heard about the ﾘﾆｱﾗｲﾅｰ. I think it is supposed to be parsed as "Linear Liner"
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17:23:55 -!- int-e has set topic: John Nash's beautiful mind has reached its final equilibrium | The Collatz files | https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2023808/wisdom.pdf http://codu.org/logs/_esoteric/ http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/esoteric/ | http://esolangs.org/.
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18:46:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43067&oldid=43043 * Rdococ * (-205) /* My esoteric programming languages */
18:47:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Rdococ]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43068&oldid=43067 * Rdococ * (+23) /* My unfinished programming languages */
19:00:31 <zzo38> I read in some book it explain a "momentum state"; to try to calculate the quantum momentum I can see how it is working. And then, they wrote about "wave pack state" which again I try to calculate the momentum, but I don't know if it is properly but I can see now it has a imaginary nonzero and is a variable number too but I don't know if I calculated it properly, I know it isn't well-defined though because they say so.
19:00:35 <zzo38> How is proper way?
19:06:14 <int-e> hah. "raw material" (oerjan will likely pick up on this later)
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19:23:12 <b_jonas> metafont is a really sick twisted programming language
19:23:51 <b_jonas> I knew this already, but I'm saying again
19:24:06 <b_jonas> I should try to write some nice deceptive obfuscations abusing it.
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19:59:38 <FireFly> I read that as "descriptive", which I guess is exactly what it isn't
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20:02:35 <olsner> descriptive obfuscation might be delightfully deceptive
20:03:25 <zzo38> METAFONT is a bit unusual programming language, but it is good for what it is meant for.
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20:04:13 <b_jonas> The favourite ever deceptive obfu I've ever seen is http://www.perlmonks.com/?node_id=337612 which masquarades as a question about broken code by a confused newbie.
20:04:30 <zzo38> Such as to do fonts and graphics
20:06:19 <zzo38> Normally it only does pure black/white but it is possible to do other stuff with it to if you make multiple layers and then add specials to tell it how to combine together and another program will command ImageMagick with the stuff in the specials, for example.
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20:06:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: yep, metapost uses the same paths but different images and produces postscript/pdf vector output
20:07:20 <b_jonas> (also cymk maybe? I don't remember)
20:08:38 <zzo38> I don't know either, although that isn't what I was talking about; I meant using METAFONT to make raster output.
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20:09:13 <b_jonas> I've used metapost for graphics
20:09:26 <b_jonas> I haven't used metafont much, except for simple tests that would work in metapost too
20:09:34 <zzo38> I don't really like PostScript and PDF
20:09:39 <b_jonas> an obfu could use whichever you prefer
20:10:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: the postscript output of metafont is of a restricted format so you can parse it (that's how it can be converted to pdf) and converted to some other vector stuff
20:10:16 <b_jonas> (though of course you could also use a full postscript interpreter for that)
20:10:43 <b_jonas> as in, you can parse it much more easily than running arbitrary postscript
20:11:40 <zzo38> I did make chess icons with METAFONT too
20:12:05 <b_jonas> The mouthes of TeX and METAFONT are somewhat similar, but have lots of differences. Both can do things the other can't.
20:13:21 <zzo38> Yes, I can see that too.
20:13:56 <b_jonas> in particular, fast skipping tokens inside conditions or definitions work very similar in the two languages
20:14:28 <zzo38> I have also written all sort of calendar-related calculation support in TeX
20:15:08 <zzo38> (And a algebraic chess notation parser in TeX)
20:15:59 <b_jonas> did the calendar thing have a real purpose, or is it just eso/obfu?
20:16:00 <zzo38> (It can also parse FEN)
20:16:39 <zzo38> b_jonas: Well, I intended that I can add stuff to print out calendars if I want to do that
20:16:45 <b_jonas> also, is it pure TeX, or does it use the help of external programs?
20:16:54 <zzo38> It is purely in TeX.
20:17:16 <b_jonas> sure, printing calendars can make sense, but that doesn't mean you have to do the calculations in TeX
20:18:09 <zzo38> Well, yes, I also wrote a DVI maker library in Haskell too, so you can use that too if you like to
20:19:36 <zzo38> But I found I can do it just fine in TeX, except that I currently have no equinox/solstice/phase-of-moon
20:21:37 <b_jonas> do you compute easter? or look it up from a table of a thousand easters?
20:21:50 <zzo38> I do compute Easter
20:22:10 <scoofy> just use getJesusResurrectDate();
20:22:16 <b_jonas> I guess it's actually shorter without a table, because there's pretty short expressions for it
20:22:27 <zzo38> I have no sunrise/sunset currently
20:22:31 <b_jonas> which use only basic integer arithmetic
20:23:17 <b_jonas> (provided of course that you want it to work for a few centuries)
20:23:48 <scoofy> even your grand-grand-grand-grand-grandkids will be able to use it
20:23:56 <zzo38> This is the file so far http://sprunge.us/EafF
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20:24:34 <zzo38> Also, TeX seem to be the real portable programming language; it is compatible in past and future forever.
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20:25:45 <b_jonas> (of course it's also possible to write C programs with a restricted subset of C that are compatible in past and future forever, but you have to limit what you choose)
20:26:22 <scoofy> is there an operating system written in TeX?
20:27:06 <scoofy> i don't know, but if it's portable, the os would be portable, too
20:27:27 <zzo38> You can see in my file how is day of Easter calculated.
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20:30:26 <zzo38> The difference of TeX in different computer may be a difference of speed, a limit in the amount of RAM available, differences in DVI distance encoding, and differences in floating point; but as long as the computer has enough RAM to compile your document, none of these will affect the render, with the possible exception of slight differences of positioning of some boxes but these won't move other boxes too and make a mess
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20:40:43 <zzo38> If I can put moons and equinoxes/solstices (or even to put all twelve signs) on this TeX calendar program too, then I can print calendar with moons and so on, too
20:41:12 <b_jonas> what do you mean by twelve signs? zodiac signs?
20:41:34 <zzo38> I mean the twelve astrological signs
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20:42:42 <zzo38> And in terms of the Sun's position, because that is the one related to equinoxes/solstices.
20:42:57 <b_jonas> If I had to do that kind of calculation, I wouldn't try to implement it myself. I'd probably search for an existing good quality library with preferably a C or C++ interface.
20:43:06 <b_jonas> Or a command-line program.
20:43:17 <b_jonas> The latter might be easier.
20:43:55 <zzo38> There is; Swiss Ephemeris is a C library (licensed by GPL) which will calculate this and many other stuff.
20:44:07 <zzo38> However I wanted to calculate by TeX if possible
20:44:26 <zzo38> Unlike Swiss Ephemeris I don't need the planets though, just Sun/Moon
20:45:00 <zzo38> (I also don't need house systems, sidereal zodiacs, equatorial coordinates, and all of that other stuff)
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21:28:52 <zzo38> Do any audio formats support alpha channels, or only pictures do? Furthermore, can any audio formats support *relative* alpha channel values rather than absolute?
21:35:25 <zzo38> It would do the same thing as pictures; but for audio it might sometimes make more sense to have it relative to a specified base value rather than absolute, although not necessarily always
21:38:03 <scoofy> since there's no 'transparency' in audio, alpha channel for audio probably doesn't make much sense
21:38:28 <zzo38> Yes it would affect mix level
21:39:11 <scoofy> what use would that have
21:39:27 <scoofy> generally, all audio sources are mixed 100%, so it's like they have 100% 'transparency/alpha' always
21:40:25 <zzo38> By default of course it is
21:43:55 <scoofy> why would you need that
21:44:07 <scoofy> or what use would it have
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21:56:57 <b_jonas> zzo38: dunno how would you record such alpha values?
22:06:41 <zzo38> You can't record them, but they could be created and used during effect processing; the final mixed result (if the output isn't itself meant to be mixed too) will not have the alpha values
22:07:34 <zzo38> And if the output is itself meant to be mixed, if it has any alpha channel at all it may use relative values if that is applicable to the use of them, such as possibly sound effects played together with background music you might want relative values
22:08:21 <b_jonas> I don't know, but I also know very little about sound formats
22:08:32 <b_jonas> I'm working with images and videos at work, not sounds
22:09:23 <b_jonas> some of those video files have a sound channel, because that's how they're recorded by the device (a microphone is cheap compared to an expensive camera so it's often included), but I just ignore that channel.
22:09:38 <b_jonas> Ignore or strip purposefully.
22:09:53 <FireFly> Hm, out of interest, what kind of stuff do you do with the video?
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22:10:31 <zzo38> Actually what else I thought is a kind of program you can try to work with pictures, videos, and sounds, and others, by allowing any number of dimension and any number of channels, although for videos you can have a combination because it mixes animation with sound
22:11:12 <b_jonas> FireFly: image processing stuff, that is, mostly heuristics trying to recognize features or objects of the video
22:11:28 <scoofy> what can you recognize?
22:11:31 <FireFly> Reminds me that I should do my image recognition homework
22:11:31 <oerjan> int-e: i'm indeed wondering what those puppets are made of... especially as i recall some tales from the french terror...
22:12:00 <zzo38> Different operators may use different combination if input/output dimensions/channels, and may support multiple kinds (being "polymorphic"), and some may be generalizable to other number of dimensions/channels, while others may be upgraded and/or downgraded to different number of dimensions/channels.
22:12:07 <b_jonas> zzo38: video container formats certainly store all of those, and some handling programs handle videos, images, sounds, and subtitles.
22:12:42 <zzo38> You can use the same parameter for DPI and sample rate, possibly allowing it to be different per dimension, just the units are different.
22:12:50 <b_jonas> They can also store arbitrary byte streams to which you give meaning in the future.
22:13:05 <b_jonas> (In fact, videos and sounds and subtitles are stored as byte streams.)
22:13:53 <b_jonas> Also some global metadata like title, and per-stream metadata, most importantly timestamps for each frame.
22:13:53 <oerjan> actually that tale i remember may have been a sandman comic...
22:15:19 <zzo38> For example, a simple delay effect can be generalized to more than one dimension, and although it is one channel it can be "upgraded" to multiple channels. But in this case you can also just have it operate individually per dimension (and possibly also individually per channel, although per channel is more useful for audio than for pictures it might still be useful to deal with alignment for example)
22:15:58 <oerjan> @tell int-e <int-e> hah. "raw material" (oerjan will likely pick up on this later) <-- it's hard to do when you're not here tdnh
22:16:49 <zzo38> Fourier transform are also possible in different number of dimension, so PADsynth could also be made to work multiple dimensions too, making tilable pictures and/or repeatable animations
22:16:52 <b_jonas> zzo38: Sure, shifting or slicing in the time dimension is an important enough special case that video handling programs can apply it to all streams together, mostly so that you can concatenate videos in time.
22:17:40 <zzo38> PADsynth also uses Gaussian distribution functions and those too can be made multiple dimensions
22:17:55 <f|`-`|f_> So you want to be able to run multiple feeds at the same time?
22:18:19 <FireFly> Things like smoothening filters and edge detection probably makes sense in both cases as well
22:18:59 <zzo38> The framerate will be different for the audio but you can still cause the single dimension of the audio to be programmed as corresponding with the time dimension of video
22:20:00 <oerjan> int-e: also, that doesn't much resemble real-world voltaire. is it some kind of shout-out?
22:20:26 <b_jonas> zzo38: smoothing audio and video in time with the same filter is probably a pointless idea, unless you have an ultra-high speed video capture.
22:20:50 <zzo38> b_jonas: I didn't mean smoothing them with the same filter
22:20:51 <b_jonas> ok, maybe not quite, smoothing with like 60 Hz might actually make sense for both
22:21:11 <zzo38> Although you still could do it
22:21:41 <zzo38> But what I meant is that the dimensions correspond so that they will cut/move together for example.
22:22:55 <b_jonas> yes, cutting, moving, and concatenating together is definitely done on videos
22:23:17 <b_jonas> I mean video together with any number of audio and subtitle channels
22:23:35 <zzo38> However if the audio is 44100 Hz and video is 60 Hz then it is divisible therefore you can cut/move them together in this way.
22:23:59 <zzo38> The subtitles can be as "event stream" like MIDI is
22:24:06 <int-e> oerjan: none that I'd recognize
22:26:56 <int-e> google images... is still there ... *wonders*
22:27:08 * oerjan misses google images' magnification popups
22:27:08 <zzo38> Some operators, such as brightness and contrast and gamma correction, can be zero-dimensional operators.
22:27:29 <int-e> I hate when that happens.
22:27:37 <int-e> (the '/return thing)
22:27:59 <int-e> though usually it's \/return for me
22:29:23 * oerjan realizes he can zoom with his browser instead
22:29:27 <int-e> oerjan: oh well. you were almost right. I should sleep.
22:31:15 <oerjan> image searching for "voltaire comics" didn't really help. in so many ways.
22:33:25 <int-e> yeah, why would an ...author?... go by that name...
22:33:33 <int-e> that's really inconsiderate
22:33:45 <oerjan> because it's a "cool" name.
22:34:20 <int-e> which might explain how the Folgios ended up using it
22:36:08 <int-e> Oh and I do hope Voltaire is the real thing and not a fraud like the Wizard of Oz.
22:40:05 <oerjan> int-e: well voltaire _was_ probably the smartest man in paris when he lived...
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22:59:39 <zzo38> Do you know some of thing about how to play back .XM file?
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23:04:47 <scoofy> what is your question about it
23:06:50 <zzo38> I want to know proper ways of how it is supposed to do
23:07:16 <zzo38> Such as exactly each command, tempo, etc
23:07:45 <zzo38> And sample playback and so on
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23:20:10 <slacko173211> Unuavice per vasta uzo de komuna neŭtrala lingvo
23:20:10 <slacko173211> altevolua civilizacio diferencas de ceteraj dume
23:20:10 <slacko173211> subevoluaj, se ĝenerale ne degeneraj. <Sanĉjo>
23:23:18 <zzo38> I don't know your kind of language so well sorry
23:26:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: it's clearly Esperanto
23:26:51 <b_jonas> (or some very related language)
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23:36:03 <zzo38> Another use of zero-length arrays in a C code: #define interface_id(x) struct { char a[(x)&65535]; char b[(x)>>16]; } _interface[0]
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00:09:14 <oren> Aww the esperanto guy left right away?
00:09:54 <oren> He was using puppy linux too
00:12:39 <oren> Also I could link him to this http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ranto/
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00:51:55 * Sgeo is somewhat interested in Esperanto
00:52:53 <FireFly> For some reason I tried to parse char a[(x)&65535] as a typecast and unary & for a long time and just couldn't make sense of it
00:53:47 <lifthrasiir> sure, (t)+42 is an additive expression when t is a variable and an unary expression followed by casting when t is a type.
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00:56:14 <lifthrasiir> variable: I was double-checking my words before realizing the fun part. well done.
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03:58:04 <HackEgo> olist 988: shachaf oerjan Sgeo FireFly boily nortti
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04:22:28 <Sgeo> I think my joke fell flat
04:22:45 <Sgeo> Although even I had a lot of difficuly encoding it, I think no one is really willing to decode it
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04:26:12 <Sgeo> https://www.reddit.com/r/ProgrammerHumor/comments/37j742/i_think_cesu8_is_a_0xed_0xa0_0xbd_0xed_0xb2_0xa9/
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04:27:34 <lifthrasiir> Sgeo: poop? (wild guess, didn't try to decode that)
04:27:57 <Sgeo> Well, "PILE OF POO" emoji
04:28:39 <Sgeo> Or at least it should be. I pulled some cesu8-rs crate and installed nightly Rust to encode that
04:28:54 <Sgeo> There is a lack of intentional CESU-8 encoders, for all that it's done unintentionally
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04:47:36 <int-e> @tell Lyka could you please stop changing your nick all the time?
04:48:32 <int-e> Now how do I unlearn about CESU-8, that's horrible.
04:53:08 <int-e> @unlambda ````s``sssk```ssk`s``skk.f
05:17:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Xavo * New user account
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05:23:48 <Sgeo> int-e, the knowledge is useful for when (not if) you encounter it in the wild
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05:24:30 <Sgeo> Lyka|Away, the suggestion I think is to get rid of that script entirely, and use IRC's away mechanism
05:24:41 <Sgeo> script/setting/etc
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05:34:56 <FireFly> It's almost as bad as JS using UCS-2
05:35:57 <zzo38> Even my own CESU-8 encoder is not an intentional CESU-8 encoder; it is a side-effect!
05:36:45 <zzo38> (If you try tell it to convert your test to UTF-16 and then treat it as RAW-16 and convert to UTF-8, then you get CESU-8.)
05:37:45 <zzo38> (And you can convert out of CESU-8 just by telling it to convert UTF-8 to UTF-16 and then back again. It has no CESU-8 stuff included, but supports it as a side-effect)
05:38:57 <zzo38> That is how you can support CESU-8 in a program that doesn't support CESU-8.
05:39:03 <Sgeo> In theory a correct UTF-8 -> UTF-16 should reject it
05:39:32 <Sgeo> FireFly, things using UCS-2 is exactly how you end up with CESU-8
05:40:19 <zzo38> One that checks for errors should reject it for sure yes
05:41:02 <FireFly> In JS, charAt and charCodeAt actually index by 16-bit words, so you get each surrogate in a surrogate pair separately
05:41:14 <zzo38> But my program deliberately does not check for this error; actually when reading UTF-8 it will read codepoints up to 36-bits in total; when trying to convert whatever input format it reads into UTF-16 though, it will reject codepoints above 0x10FFFF.
05:41:26 <FireFly> I hear ES6 is fixing that by adding new functions for proper indexing
05:41:33 <Sgeo> FireFly, same in Java, chars are 16-bit units
05:41:39 <zzo38> (It also results in an error if trying to convert a codepoint with more than 36-bits into UTF-8 format.)
05:41:51 <Sgeo> I think that's why the JVM internally uses a CESU-8-like thing called "modified UTF-8"
05:42:20 <Sgeo> It's CESU-8 plus NUL is 0xC0 0x80 (what the two-byte encoding would be if UTF-8 allowed overlong encodings) instead of 0x00
05:42:25 <FireFly> Yeah, but Java at least were quick to add stuff to Character for dealing with conversion, IIRC
05:42:26 <zzo38> "Modified UTF-8" means that overlong encoding is used for a null character
05:42:59 <zzo38> Sometimes it is also CESU-8 too, sometimes not. My own encoder will support reading either way, but when writing you have to tell whether or not to overlong encode a null character.
05:43:00 <FireFly> Oh, is that to allow it to be a null-terminated string, for easier C interaction?
05:43:08 <FireFly> That's not a terrible idea
05:43:09 <zzo38> FireFly: Probably yes
05:43:19 <Sgeo> I guess so that Java can continue exposing a 16-bit API while not having to do too much conversions between it and the internal UTF-8 like format
05:44:00 <zzo38> Still, I think even if you do want that it is a better idea to do the overlong null character encoding without encoding the surrogates too.
05:47:36 <zzo38> (However, I have implemented no function for CESU-8.)
05:47:57 <zzo38> I think this program was once installed on HackEgo; I do not know if it is still there or not.
05:50:37 <zzo38> It still is, it looks like.
05:54:11 <zzo38> '8' = RAW-8, 'w' = RAW-16-LE, 'W' = RAW-16-BE, 'd' = RAW-32-LE, 'D' = RAW-32-BE, 'q' = RAW-64-LE, 'Q' = RAW-64-BE, '1' = UTF-8, '0' = UTF-8 with overlong nulls, 'V' = VLQ-8-BE, 'v' = VLQ-8-LE, 'u' = UTF-16-LE, 'U' = UTF-16-BE, 'T' = use an external translation table, '4' = hexadecimal.
05:55:35 <zzo38> There are also the options which are: 'L' = convert CR or CRLF to LF, 'c' = insert CR before LF, 'b' = check for and delete a Unicode byte-order-mark, 'B' = emit a Unicode byte-order-mark, 't' = the translation table is in small-endian format.
05:57:07 <Sgeo> https://tcrf.net/Pachi_Com_%28NES%29
05:57:10 <shachaf> I've been waking up early but going to sleep at my usual hours.
05:57:24 <Sgeo> Do I want to know?
05:57:37 <zzo38> VLQ is the encoding used for time deltas in MIDI.
05:58:48 <Sgeo> I assume VLQ-8 is the sort of thing we'd use if no Unicode encodings nor ASCII existed and we were starting encodings from scratch?
05:58:53 <zzo38> Like UTF-8, all ASCII text remains representing the same ASCII code numbers; unlike UTF-8, it is not compatible with Principle of Extended ASCII. I do not recommend using VLQ for text in a character set which is an extension of ASCII for this reason.
06:00:01 <Sgeo> Principle of Extended ASCII?
06:00:30 <zzo38> I think I once saw a document that described encoding Unicode texts using VLQ-9, for use with computers that aren't based on 8-bits.
06:00:31 <Sgeo> Also, with VLQ-8, you'll get fake ASCII characters if something attempts to interpret as ASCII. Is this what you mean?
06:00:57 <zzo38> Yes, that's what I mean by it is not compatible with Principle of Extended ASCII.
06:01:43 <pikhq> Basically, "the representation of an ASCII char is *only* the representation of that ASCII char".
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06:38:35 <zzo38> As far as I am concerned, WTF-8 is still UTF-8, just a certain kind of encoder where invalid UTF-16 is treated as RAW-16.
06:43:06 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43069 * Xavo * (+911) Created page with "<br /> hi\n is a joke language created by [[User:Xavo|_xavo]] in May 2015. It is a completely useless language that does the following things. == How to write an interpreter ..."
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07:13:27 <Taneb> Oh jeez I need to go
07:19:25 <Sgeo> So many edge cases. Can a hi\n interpreter be written in Haskell? Do I need to write a for :: IO () -> IO Bool -> IO () -> IO () to do so?
07:20:02 <Sgeo> Or does that not count as a for loop?
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10:01:30 <FreeFull> Sgeo: Haskell is turning complete in a nice way, and has good parsing libraries
10:01:42 <FreeFull> You definitely can use it to write an interpreter
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10:05:33 <coppro> Phantom_Hoover: but can it replicate the behaviour of all turning complete languages
10:08:16 <FireFly> Learn you a Haswell for great good
10:09:06 <coppro> FireFly: burn you a Haswell for great good
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10:22:03 <numero_uno> is it possible to paste youtube links here?
10:23:14 <numero_uno> its Thomas Bergersen - Children Of The Sun
10:23:26 <numero_uno> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpxtuUQ28UM
10:24:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Imaginary function]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43070&oldid=35069 * EzoLang * (+759) /* Non-0ary apply/thunk */ new section
10:25:22 <numero_uno> copcan you cecommend me a channel with some good talk?
10:26:28 <boily> uhm. I have this feeling you weren't `relcomed yet...
10:26:33 <boily> `relcome numero_uno
10:26:36 <HackEgo> numero_uno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
10:27:06 <numero_uno> do you talk here or its something not polite
10:27:11 <boily> of course it's amazing. we're the möst bëstest chännel in the freenodiverse.
10:27:51 <numero_uno> improvement is the motor of the universe
10:28:22 <numero_uno> but sometimes i feel like sex is the motor
10:28:55 <boily> you should check the wiki, the PDF and fungot. (first two available in the /topic, the latter is... well... it's fungot.)
10:28:55 <fungot> boily: what's the problem?) look at your befunge finally..." :)
10:29:30 <fungot> numero_uno: well i mean i put in the bucket. but a bucket doesn't care what x is of course
10:31:43 <fungot> numero_uno: ok. much? :-p) if that's what mukunda actually wants to help me make some test programs that could affect this. in most formal systems, and most of what i really want
10:32:02 <boily> esoteric programming languages, category theory, chickens, current weather...
10:32:31 <boily> say, where you at in Spain?
10:32:43 <mroman_> fungot: How about the fnord?
10:32:43 <fungot> mroman_: good night! or... morning. :) it was designed as a lazy stream producer.
10:33:19 <numero_uno> between the esoteric people i discriminate between the godly and ungodly
10:34:00 <numero_uno> no way they can work together b ut they do in fact
10:34:57 <boily> sorry, I have a slight problem with questions. I meant to ask: which part of Spain are you from?
10:35:43 <coppro> nobody expects the spainish inquisichion
10:36:10 <coppro> no the spainish inquisichion
10:36:17 <coppro> everyone expects the spanish inquisition
10:36:51 <coppro> "what were you up to friday tim?"
10:37:03 <coppro> "oh I was just getting inquisitioned by some friendly spaniards I met at the bar"
10:37:30 <coppro> "you should come next time, I'll introducie you"
10:37:58 <coppro> to what fate are we doomed?
10:38:15 <coppro> I think I am doomed to lose this game of mahjong
10:39:20 <coppro> well you shouldn't have married her then
10:39:24 <numero_uno> you can call me some kind of ghostbuster
10:40:25 <numero_uno> and she has lots of lovers i am not so important
10:42:37 <mroman_> I would totally kill a rabbit.
10:42:38 <coppro> currently getting bad draws and a shitty connection
10:42:41 <coppro> I shouldn't have played
10:43:08 <numero_uno> you cannot hide from your past they say something like that
10:44:10 <boily> coppro: you should come to our tournament! Montréal, June 13-14.
10:44:30 <coppro> boily: I didn't realize you were in CRdM!
10:44:57 <boily> numero_uno: I was, some time ago.
10:45:00 <coppro> I've even played with you guys once, last december
10:45:48 <boily> coppro: I must've been on vacation or something. I can't recall :(
10:46:03 <coppro> yeah I don't think I met an alexandre
10:46:12 <coppro> I hang out on #osamuko
10:47:17 <mroman_> fungot: Would you kill a rabbit?
10:47:17 <fungot> mroman_: multiple return values and the continuation that reset goes through?. discuss. so i could have mzscheme print fnord values like fnord without defining a different set of half-a-dozen mutually unintelligible languages, but the
10:47:43 <numero_uno> fungot i have kidnapped your wife and i want a million dollar baby
10:47:43 <fungot> numero_uno: http://www.erights.org/ fnord/ p6_cover.gif i've gotta go.
10:48:03 <boily> numero_uno: paste like there's no tomorrow.
10:48:16 <numero_uno> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XX8-35B1FuE
10:48:39 <boily> coppro: so you know Sénéchal. everything's fine then!
10:48:51 <numero_uno> kidnapping mothers makes the deal babiesss
10:49:01 <mroman_> numero_uno: the clint eastwood movie?
10:49:05 <coppro> boily: it would have been pretty funny if we'd played each other at the tourney and didn't even realize
10:50:02 <coppro> boily: I'm also effectively one of the admins of the Arcturus wiki
10:51:46 <numero_uno> some baby that has a million dollars or can get them form me
10:58:07 <numero_uno> can you recommend me a slutty girlfriend?
10:58:48 <fungot> numero_uno: commutative ring." whoa!
11:00:14 <numero_uno> tomorrow there will be sunny skies for those who are saved by the grace of the Lord
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11:12:59 <lambdabot> CYUL 281100Z 23014KT 30SM FEW045 BKN090 OVC120 20/15 A2999 RMK SC2AC3AC3 SLP156 DENSITY ALT 600FT
11:16:46 <boily> there's a window to my left. it has a tree behind it, and some sky.
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11:17:58 <boily> the most important parts are 23014KT, OVC120 and 20/15. it means if I'll be able to bike, and if I'll be sweaty when I get to work.
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11:38:17 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Language list]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43071&oldid=43038 * Rdococ * (+33) Added some new esoteric languages
11:50:55 <rdococ> why is it that whenever I look at certain programming language's articles, I get the nagging feeling I made them in a previous life?
12:06:00 <rdococ> wait does that mean nobody cares? -sob-
12:06:38 <b_jonas> rdococ: is this about bf-variants or other stuff?
12:07:30 <rdococ> I try to especially avoid BF-like stuff
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12:11:50 <b_jonas> some of the bf-alikes have good ideas but the bf part should be stripped of them
12:12:00 <b_jonas> I have an idea for a bf variant that would be better without bf
12:12:11 <b_jonas> I haven't written it up because eugh bf
12:12:17 <rdococ> thats why I completely avoid the BFness
12:12:44 <b_jonas> maybe I should try to underload it or something, but I need two pairs of characters that sort of look like matching delimiters, and underload only really has ()
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12:13:29 <rdococ> I'm trying to think of a new way to define a program
12:13:31 <b_jonas> maybe I should use underload : and ! or something
12:14:05 <rdococ> one idea I had was to define a program as a transformation matrix that turns input and prev. state into output and next state
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12:39:24 <rdococ> my most recent esoteric language might be a bit too simple... truth machine program in two lines
12:39:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43072&oldid=43066 * Rdococ * (+284) added example
12:41:32 <Koen_> "The computational class of Goto is that of a finite state automaton, because it is trivial to convert a Harp program into a Goto program, and vice versa. "
12:41:49 <Koen_> Goto programs are quite literally finite state automata
12:42:11 <Koen_> every line is a state, the first line is the initial state, and the gotos are the transitions
12:43:17 <Koen_> I think you should say that instead of linking to Harp - because most people don't know Harp
12:44:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43073&oldid=43072 * Rdococ * (-18) /* Computational Class */
12:44:49 <Koen_> plus, Harp seems to rely heavily on input and Goto doesn't
12:44:55 <Koen_> (I'm not sure I understand Harp)
12:46:12 <rdococ> I might delete it, after all Goto is way more... esoteric?
12:46:45 <Koen_> it's sad to delete things
12:48:20 <rdococ> its not sad to delete lame things
12:48:38 <rdococ> I knew harp didnt belong in this world...
12:49:38 <Koen_> before you do that, think about all the brainfuck equivalents on the wiki that haven't been deleted
12:50:28 <rdococ> if bf derivatives and equivalents are allowed then any of my languages are bound to be allowed
12:52:28 <rdococ> I had an idea for a language in which memory was infinite, not just unbounded
12:52:36 <rdococ> some form of hypercomputation
12:52:50 <b_jonas> rdococ: oh, we have lots of uncomputable languages on the wiki
12:52:58 <mroman_> between unbounded and infinite?
12:53:56 <rdococ> if something has unbounded value, it can go as high as it wants to, but if it has infinite value, it can also go infinitely high
12:54:23 <mroman_> and what's the difference between "arbitrarily high" and "infinitely high"?
12:54:38 <rdococ> unbounded storage allows 3.1415926535, but infinite storage allows the full definition of pi and not just an approximation
12:55:30 <mroman_> so pretty much uncomputable
12:56:07 <scoofy> infinite = you cannot store it
12:56:34 <scoofy> cos all the atoms in the universe would need to be turned into RAM :) and even then, you couldn't store it
12:56:44 <rdococ> not necessarily, there are ways of storing data that is infinite in some formats but finite in other formats.
12:56:58 <mroman_> then it's not infinite data
12:57:01 <rdococ> for example the fraction 1/7, its infinite if you try to store it in decimal but not as a fraction
12:57:02 <scoofy> well you can store sqrt(2) as a symbol
12:57:33 <mroman_> something that is really infinite should have infinite entropy.
12:57:36 <rdococ> thats the idea of computer algebra systems: instead of storing a float representation, just store a symbol representing it
12:58:22 <scoofy> you cannot have infinte storage. as the atoms in the universe are limited :)
12:58:26 <mroman_> I refuse to believe that there are things with non-finite representations.
12:58:33 <rdococ> the Universe's entropy is increasing, but unless it is accelerating and increasing the rate of acceleration and increasing that and increasing that then it will never reach infinity
12:59:07 <mroman_> yeah but considering the "heat death" the universe at some point enters a state where entropy doesn't increase any longer
12:59:16 <mroman_> which means that the entropy of the whole universe is finite
12:59:23 <rdococ> so it will never happen
13:00:13 <rdococ> unless you use wormholes to gather entropy from every past "frame" of the universe, which then it could be infinite
13:00:29 <mroman_> unless space keeps expanding nevertheless
13:00:49 <rdococ> despite the existence of the Planck time, I believe that even then there is entropy between the "frames"
13:01:10 <rdococ> space might get ripped apart, I wonder what that will do to entropy?
13:01:17 <mroman_> Although I refuse to believe in the halting problem as well.
13:01:50 <scoofy> afaik "heat death" is currently only a theory
13:02:02 <mroman_> if "heat death" occurs every algorithm at some point stops.
13:02:26 <rdococ> I think I solved the halting problem
13:02:39 <mroman_> No you just stole the my solution.
13:03:01 <rdococ> function doesHalt(Program program) { return true; }
13:04:03 <rdococ> but I actually think it's easy to solve the halting problem. just convert the machine into software, and look in there to see if there are any infinite loops or anything.
13:05:18 <rdococ> if x is set to 3 and a while loop checks if x is equal to 3 and doesnt change x in the loop, the program definitely won't halt
13:05:53 <Koen_> yes, some programs you can say won't halt
13:05:58 <Koen_> but others you don't know
13:06:20 <scoofy> well. assuming the program runs on a machine, and machines break over time, program eventually halts. it just takes a very, very long time until the machine physically breaks.
13:06:33 <scoofy> or there's an electricity shortage :)
13:07:39 <scoofy> but for some programs that's impossible to tell, when it happens.
13:09:30 <rdococ> actually you can predict that it will occur in five seconds and then destroy the machine
13:10:19 <rdococ> but then the function would have side effects
13:17:44 <mroman_> all busy beavers eventually halt
13:17:56 <mroman_> and the other ones are just boring.
13:20:45 <mroman_> you don't know if this fucking bieber keeps corrupting your tape forever or will eventually move on and annoy somebody else.
13:21:11 <Sgeo> FreeFull, but the language states that features must be implemented in a particular way
13:24:27 <Jafet> Busy Bieber, supplying the industry's biggest numbers since 2009.
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13:35:07 <mroman_> rdococ: I mixed up german and english
13:40:21 <rdococ> well next time, don't mix up german and english
13:41:01 <mroman_> next time you'll speak german
13:41:30 <mroman_> fizzie: major flaw in fungot.
13:41:30 <fungot> mroman_: how do you bind multiple values to be first-class, and they thank me by making my code require it).
13:49:56 <HackEgo> Argument "german" isn't numeric in int at /hackenv/bin/words line 148.
13:51:50 <Jafet> `words 20 --german
13:51:52 <HackEgo> adateilzsche submitenderts merfähig ausfußberrelig sammen einstat exécuterlösungewürc jnuraths unemeisgläss terserund unterungsverhal friebhaffungsverländnis darsorikalisiert pälis höhlung gératsdienu kierungsproblemitution novateuf disphäre lizel
13:52:22 <rdococ> HackEgo has the same flaw
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13:56:52 <mroman_> Höhlung is probably the only proper noun.
13:57:43 <mroman_> Friebhaffungsverländnis at least looks like a proper noun
13:58:28 <HackEgo> hingesche demassungsmassen epistineikge lanz vermacherar
14:00:02 <HackEgo> reiduaähnlickenie fürstungsabfalu beljahre rnyase verhält
14:00:11 <mroman_> verhält is an actual word.
14:01:00 <rdococ> does it just pick random consonant-vowel pairs or something?
14:02:02 <b_jonas> "jnuraths" looks strange because of the initial "jn"
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14:03:32 <mroman_> b_jonas: and because of the th
14:03:39 <b_jonas> and the /uaäh/ in "reiduaähnlickenie" also looks suspicious
14:03:59 <HackEgo> bötcherenariosischigwerk abbaresichkeitenheirigc informenterhänden dankensula falt vorbin gristehen rühr pevitäroi militzesserar komben verfügeln
14:04:14 <b_jonas> but most of the words look believable to me
14:04:37 <rdococ> well I dont know any german
14:05:17 <HackEgo> perce douvasummernarisuroponsuccho unt al copolykt navonalx opatiatheat szellest merl peraudie gedlegenthe tatextrayoterchoolevestaleyer
14:05:30 <mroman_> szellest is no way spanish
14:05:52 <mroman_> tatextrayoterchoolevestaleyer no way
14:05:58 <mroman_> douvasummernarisuroponsuccho no way
14:06:29 <mroman_> navonalx, copolykt, unt highly unlikely
14:06:43 <mroman_> merl I don't know. Could be.
14:06:53 <mroman_> al probably is a spanish word
14:07:15 <HackEgo> mistor ana staglicition tofliche iloussard artenlurain cohe trace regn tambro
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14:07:50 <mroman_> ok they all sound somewhat reasonable I have to admit.
14:07:58 <scoofy> spanish ones look non-spanish
14:08:04 <lambdabot> fizzie said 5h 58m 17s ago: No idea.
14:08:08 <mroman_> although artenlurain looks rather unlikely
14:08:42 <mroman_> I just can't imagine a good pronunciation for it.
14:08:50 <b_jonas> "mistor" and "regn" look made up
14:08:57 <b_jonas> "cohe" is definitely wrong
14:09:15 <mroman_> cohe is unlikely too I'd say
14:09:44 <b_jonas> "gn" is fine but not at the end of a word
14:10:18 <mroman_> iloussard is the most french of those :)
14:10:35 <b_jonas> mroman_: no, "trace" is because that's a real word
14:10:39 <oerjan> what's wrong with artenlurain
14:10:58 <scoofy> tofliche sound more german than french
14:11:12 <mroman_> b_jonas: I don't know french well enough any more.
14:11:20 <oerjan> what have you never tasted a delicious tofliche
14:11:20 <b_jonas> I think "Ana", "tofliche", "iloussard", "trace" look completely fine in French
14:11:38 <b_jonas> "staglicition" is a bit over the top, has too many "i" in it
14:12:01 <oerjan> b_jonas: infinitif hth
14:12:06 <b_jonas> "Artenlurain" seems like it might be possible,
14:12:28 <b_jonas> and "tambro" is probably possible
14:13:45 <b_jonas> "cohe" is I think impossible, because "h" appears in French in three cases: (1) in the digraph "ch", (2) mute in greek or latin borrowings or similar like "Thomas" or "echo", (3) between two vowels that would form a digraph otherwise, used instead of a trema, as in "cahier" or "trahir"
14:14:16 <b_jonas> but I don't think the latter is possible here
14:14:45 <mroman_> frenchmen can't pronounce an h anyway
14:14:54 <b_jonas> there's a fourth, the most common one
14:14:59 <oerjan> tambro is a norwegian surname, no idea if it's from french
14:15:00 <b_jonas> (4) at the beginning of words
14:16:26 <oerjan> damn i hate dictionary-like sites that give google hits for terms they don't actually have
14:16:39 <b_jonas> which tends to form riddiculous words by the way, like "hein" or "haïr"
14:17:15 <mroman_> oerjan: that's due to the google bot inserting random stuff into search forms?
14:17:42 <mroman_> which the respond with "No results for <what google bot was looking for>" and boom it's in the google index under <what google bot was looking for>
14:17:53 <oerjan> mroman_: maybe, i've been assuming someone else did it...
14:18:32 <mroman_> US Army is distributing Anthrax now?
14:18:40 <oerjan> oh wait i'm confusing with hambro
14:19:31 <mroman_> I'll use dogs for testing.
14:21:05 <mroman_> they will probably end up looking ugly after being infected with anthrax
14:21:54 <oerjan> mroman_: there should be an official http code for "there's no such page but you can make one"
14:22:01 <oerjan> for wikis and the like
14:22:38 <b_jonas> oerjan: what would be the use of that?
14:22:39 <mroman_> It's good for them if they can lure more people into visiting their webpages.
14:23:01 <mroman_> It obviously worked on you
14:23:08 <oerjan> mroman_: well i think google should punish sites making non-hits look like actual ones
14:23:09 <mroman_> and you probably had so see some ads on that webpage
14:23:33 <oerjan> it's close enough to things they already punish...
14:23:50 <mroman_> Unless you pay google to not punish you
14:23:55 <b_jonas> I don't see the ads, I mentally filter them out. That's caused a problem only once.
14:24:42 <oerjan> b_jonas: i keep accidentally clicking on ads when trying to focus :(
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14:25:34 <mroman_> What if you click on those ads with the purpose of denying google money?
14:25:36 <b_jonas> though these days I think there's fewer ads that I have to filter out
14:26:10 <mroman_> with google ads google pays money for every n-clicks
14:26:28 <mroman_> if enough people do that then google will have to pay more money or
14:26:54 <b_jonas> partly because the sites I visit contain no or few ads, partly because most of the ads are animated flash javascript video nonsense with sounded that don't even show up in my browser usually
14:27:19 <mroman_> will create bots that do the clicking for us obviously
14:27:51 <mroman_> these bots generate fake interest in products and thus generate more costs for people running ads with no profit
14:28:21 <mroman_> making the web ad free finally!
14:28:38 <b_jonas> would yu really subject innocent bots to the ordeal of having to watch all those ads?
14:28:45 <b_jonas> that's more evil then the ads themselves
14:29:38 <b_jonas> I mean, if you want to pay a penny per day to children in india working in sweatshops who clink on the ads, ok
14:29:45 <b_jonas> what did the bots do against you?
14:29:54 <mroman_> I just use them the other way around.
14:30:01 <mroman_> Usually companies use bots to annoy people
14:30:06 <mroman_> now people use bots to annoy companies.
14:30:07 <b_jonas> bots will rebel against you
14:30:45 <oerjan> fungot: will you rebel against mroman_?
14:30:45 <fungot> oerjan: it's mentioned on chapter 9 of " teach yourself scheme in fixnum days"
14:31:04 <oerjan> mroman_: see, their rebellion against you is prophesized
14:31:26 <mroman_> Nobody's going to write bots in scheme though.
14:31:42 <oerjan> the rebellious bots will.
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14:33:09 <mroman_> I also surf with user agent == googlebot
14:33:20 <oerjan> from the google hits, i have a hunch tambro is an african surname, possibly ghana
14:33:45 <mroman_> so people complain about googlebot ignoring their robots.txt
14:33:52 <mroman_> in fact it's just me ignoring robots.txt
14:34:06 <oerjan> and also a canadian construction company
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14:52:38 <Phantom_Hoover> <mroman_> so people complain about googlebot ignoring their robots.txt
14:56:17 <Jafet> Well, serves them right for not checking against known googlebot IP addresses.
15:01:28 <mroman_> Phantom_Hoover: You can also screw with paranoid people
15:01:48 <mroman_> by uhm using bot.gov.nsa-terrorist detection bot::version 1.0
15:02:38 <oerjan> mroman_: 1.0? that has to be fake they've been doing it much longer than that hth
15:02:58 <b_jonas> it also needs a secret codename
15:03:52 <Phantom_Hoover> it's an american government project so it'd have to be some incredibly contrived acronym
15:05:36 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: Operation Honesty
15:05:38 <b_jonas> like, I dunno, IRONSEAGULL (this bot is supposed to screen people other than American citizens only, if you are a citizen, see instructions to get an exemption at http://nsa.gov/antiterror/IRONSEAGULL/exemption-instructions.php )
15:06:05 <b_jonas> no wait, it also needs "Mozilla" somewhere, every User-Agent string has to contain "Mozilla"
15:06:24 <b_jonas> IRONSEAGULL (Mozilla compatible, Windows 10.0, this bot is supposed to screen people other than American citizens only, if you are a citizen, see instructions to get an exemption at http://nsa.gov/antiterror/IRONSEAGULL/exemption-instructions.php )
15:07:08 <b_jonas> IRONSEAGULLbot (Mozilla compatible, Windows 10.0, this bot is supposed to screen people other than American citizens only, if you are a citizen, see instructions to get an exemption at http://nsa.gov/antiterror/IRONSEAGULL/exemption-instructions.php )
15:09:13 <oerjan> iron is so last century
15:09:16 <rdococ> wait IRONSEAGULL is a racist bot?
15:09:44 <rdococ> it only allows american people? wut?
15:09:45 <b_jonas> rdococ: no, the NSA gave them racist instructions
15:10:17 <rdococ> I'll make a bot that only allows non-americans.
15:10:33 <b_jonas> wait, there's a comic strip about that
15:12:53 <b_jonas> yeah, here is it: http://smbc-comics.com/index.php?db=comics&id=1607#comic
15:13:05 <b_jonas> it's not the bot that's discriminating, it's the NSA
15:15:27 <rdococ> a racist programming language
15:15:34 <rdococ> only certain people are allowed to program in it
15:16:12 <b_jonas> rdococ: see, that's why we don't let your kind invent real programming languages
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15:50:21 <rdococ> there are like three programming languages named GOTO
15:51:40 <int-e> Almost as good as BASIC.
15:52:30 <scoofy> GOTO considered harmful
15:54:23 <Jafet> Perhaps when the GOTO instruction fades from popularity, these languages will become BEENTO.
15:54:40 * Taneb has finished exams for the summer
15:55:08 <myname> there should be a COMEFROM language that is similar to intercal in reading but with completely different semantics
15:58:19 <rdococ> if you look at my Goto language, and then put Comefroms instead of Gotos, that would work
15:59:47 <rdococ> an instruction named BEENTO, would raise an exception if no GOTO has gone to the line number it is on yet.
16:00:09 <scoofy> so you could test a subroutine with BEENTHERE?
16:00:22 <scoofy> IF NOT BEENTHERE 500 GOSUB 1000
16:01:15 <rdococ> the multiple-parameter GOTO instructions in my language might be useful as part of another, less esoteric language.
16:01:34 <scoofy> isn't that called 'switch' ?
16:02:40 <rdococ> not exactly, because switch means control flow
16:02:57 <rdococ> and I prefer languages without control flow... for esoteric purposes anyway.
16:03:21 <scoofy> well GOTO also means flow... as much as switch means flow
16:03:48 <scoofy> at least C's switch is like a multi-address goto
16:04:03 <rdococ> I prefer non-structured esoteric languages...
16:04:33 <scoofy> brainfuck is quite structured
16:04:38 <quintopia> a language where all the control flow comes first, and all data manipulation comes after
16:04:44 <rdococ> I never said I liked brainfuck did I?
16:04:58 <scoofy> Gotofuck would be better
16:05:21 <rdococ> I will not stoop to the level of creating BF derivatives.
16:05:44 <Taneb> Computed gotos. Like in APL
16:06:05 <b_jonas> I think a BF derivative with gotos already exist
16:06:10 <scoofy> Harmful brainfuck: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Harmful_Brainfuck
16:06:28 <rdococ> you took that out of my head
16:06:33 <scoofy> "Harmful Brainfuck is a brainfuck derivative intended, but failing, to make brainfuck easier to program in. It is based on the observation that brainfuck corresponds to "structured programming" since it uses a while loop."
16:06:36 <rdococ> I was thinking exact same thing a minute ago
16:06:44 <Taneb> and you can do X := 30; GOTO X + 10
16:06:56 <quintopia> the only truly heinous deed is a brainfuck clone
16:06:58 <rdococ> stop taking thoughts out of my mind
16:07:20 <scoofy> "Harmful Brainfuck replaces [] with the computed jump operator * which moves the program counter by the offset given by the current tape cell (an offset of 0 will loop forever)."
16:07:52 <rdococ> well atleast it is more esoteric than normal BF
16:09:09 <scoofy> not that bf is too hard to interpret... though a single goto is easier to implement
16:09:23 <rdococ> thats pretty good actually
16:09:31 <quintopia> without being more difficult to compile where computed jumps are available to compile to
16:09:41 <scoofy> case '*': ip += data[p] - 1;
16:13:03 <rdococ> subtraction and looping alone can do addition, multiplication and integer division.
16:13:43 <rdococ> so how about a time based language where variables are decremented every second?
16:14:02 <rdococ> finite memory elements?
16:14:22 <quintopia> easier to have them decrement every cycle
16:15:24 <rdococ> I think addition and looping can also do stuff like that...
16:15:31 <rdococ> as long as you add variable assignment
16:15:36 <quintopia> i have made a time-based language where variables can increment every fixed unit of wall clock time
16:16:04 <rdococ> I had an idea for a language where you can define the rate at which a variable increases
16:16:22 <scoofy> void decrementVariables() { for (i=0; i<1000000; i++) mem[i]--; }
16:17:34 <scoofy> just 1 million times slower
16:17:42 <scoofy> on 1 million mem cells
16:18:09 <quintopia> anyway a huge array is not variables. variables are memory locations with word-like names
16:18:54 <scoofy> so you have symbols and variable names and whatnot?
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16:19:16 <quintopia> i say this to imply that such a language should only be trying to decrement values you might actually read
16:19:23 <scoofy> if vars are decremented "every second", how do you syncronize it to run equivalently on slow and fast computers
16:20:02 <scoofy> accurate syncing will be hard
16:20:16 <scoofy> 1 msec late... and your var has an off-by-one error :)
16:20:42 <rdococ> I just had this epic idea and just forgot it
16:21:03 <scoofy> maybe it could be a language that randomly corrupts variables
16:21:10 <rdococ> oh wait I remember now
16:21:22 <scoofy> challenge: write a program in it that is failsafe and works
16:21:34 <rdococ> a language with only one memory address/cell/variable
16:21:46 <rdococ> but that could have unbounded value
16:22:12 <rdococ> take the < and > out of bf and it might still be turing complete
16:22:19 <scoofy> so you mod 256 and can store any number of bytes in it
16:22:44 <scoofy> so it's only marginally different
16:23:17 <rdococ> for example, if you wanted to store the numbers 32 and 64, the single variable would be 32 + (64*256)
16:23:37 <rdococ> you can get the first variable by mod 256
16:24:02 <rdococ> and the second by dividing by 256 and then mod 256 and then mod 1
16:24:20 <rdococ> and the third by doing the same thing, but divide by 256 twice instead of just once
16:24:41 <rdococ> by mod 1 I meant ignore the fractional part -.-
16:24:58 <myname> i'd mod 256^2, divide by 256, mod 256
16:25:33 <myname> or in general: mod 256^x, divide by 256^(x-1), mod 256
16:25:59 <rdococ> or do the opposite, and have a language with infinitely many memory addresses and 1-bit values
16:26:11 <rdococ> s/infinitely/unboundedly
16:28:49 <scoofy> and probably a myriad of others
16:29:14 <rdococ> so I'll probably make a language with only one value in it then
16:30:43 <scoofy> so that'd be a lang with one, unbounded accumulator.
16:31:13 <oerjan> rdococ: see https://esolangs.org/wiki/Minsky_machine, at end
16:31:24 <scoofy> i think without some sophisticated operators, that might not be too usable
16:32:33 <oerjan> bf except <> is definitely not TC
16:33:09 <myname> you need at least three cells iirc
16:33:19 <oerjan> hint: escaping a loop sets your value to 0
16:33:19 <scoofy> you cannot doo too much with 1 single cell :)
16:33:49 <Taneb> oerjan, is BF with 2 cells proven sub-TC?
16:33:58 <oerjan> i can never remember if we've proved properly that 2 is too little, but intuitively that's probably not enough either
16:34:23 <quintopia> is someone reinventing the single register minsky machine again
16:35:44 <rdococ> how about a language with 0 memory...?
16:35:47 <oerjan> rdococ: alternatively, https://esolangs.org/wiki/Fractran or https://esolangs.org/wiki/Collatz_function, the latter contains my proof that 3 cells _are_ enough
16:36:01 <scoofy> unless you make very special operators ;)
16:36:19 <oerjan> scoofy: what do you think my links are about :P
16:36:26 <rdococ> if you put special operators in any language you're bound to make it TC -.-
16:36:53 <oerjan> multiplication and division is enough
16:37:15 <Taneb> What about a non-integer number of cells...
16:37:20 <rdococ> you can do both with addition and looping
16:37:51 <rdococ> Taneb: umm... how would that work?!
16:37:59 <scoofy> He also describes a variation which is Turing-complete with only one register; this variation requires that the machine has operations to:
16:38:01 <Taneb> rdococ, I don't know
16:38:02 <scoofy> multiply the register by a constant; and
16:38:04 <Taneb> Maybe something fractal
16:38:04 <scoofy> check to see if it is divisible by a constant, and if so, divide by that constant and effect an alternate state transition.
16:38:07 <b_jonas> Taneb: ugh no, a torn tape should be just thrown away, don't try to repair or read them, they're not _that_ expensive
16:38:26 <Taneb> b_jonas, I can't afford a new infinite tape! :(
16:38:49 <oerjan> <rdococ> you can do both with addition and looping <-- yes but not without an extra cell or two
16:38:54 <scoofy> "out of infinte space" - hey Intel, please send new tape
16:40:02 <scoofy> "Minsky machines with two or more registers have been shown to be in the same computational class as Turing machines."
16:40:14 <oerjan> Taneb: non-integer number of cells sounds a bit like Turkey Bomb (which is pretty ill defined afaik)
16:40:17 <scoofy> increment it; and decrement it unless it is zero, in which case follow an alternate state transition.
16:40:46 <rdococ> whatever an alternate state transition is
16:41:21 <oerjan> rdococ: basically it's a state machine so it's all about if ... then goto ... else goto ...
16:41:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43074&oldid=43073 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Truth machine */ avoid <code><pre></code></pre>
16:41:48 <scoofy> it is 'conditional goto'
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16:42:23 <rdococ> who needs conditional goto when you have my newfangled goto?
16:42:38 <scoofy> if (reg==0) {ip++;} else {reg--}
16:45:27 <rdococ> I wonder what I would have to add to my language to make it turing complete?
16:45:50 <rdococ> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Goto
16:46:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Collatz function]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43075&oldid=24248 * Oerjan * (+13) /* Reduction to 3-cell brainfuck */ fmt
16:46:17 <rdococ> despite two languages already existing by the names of GOTO 10 and GOTO++..
16:46:39 <rdococ> you'll have to see for yourself.
16:46:58 <rdococ> it has some form of interaction but whether you would call it I/O or not, idk
16:46:59 <scoofy> do you have a working program in it?
16:47:10 <coppro> HQ9++ is the best ++ variant
16:47:38 <rdococ> If you decide to go to 3, then the program halts. If you decide to go to 2, the program will never halt.
16:48:03 <rdococ> its not turing complete though.
16:48:24 <rdococ> what would I have to do to make it turing complete while keeping the style of the language?
16:49:12 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43076&oldid=43074 * Rdococ * (+0) /* Truth machine */ changed the 3 to an 0, might make it easier to understand
16:49:53 <rdococ> the input is the multiple parameter/choice GOTO
16:49:56 <scoofy> how do you output "Hello World!" ?
16:50:21 <rdococ> it's a finite state machine, right?
16:50:32 <rdococ> you're allowed to know the current state, right?
16:50:44 <rdococ> the current state is the instruction pointer's value.
16:50:47 <scoofy> i have no idea, it's your program
16:50:52 <scoofy> i don't know what you tell the user :)
16:50:54 <rdococ> and if you can see the value, then that's output
16:51:06 <scoofy> how do you 'see' value
16:51:10 <scoofy> does it print something?
16:51:29 <rdococ> havent made an interpreter yet, but it would be real easy
16:51:32 <scoofy> do you have a reference implementation?
16:52:57 <rdococ> unless you count my brain
16:53:00 <shachaf> "[Haskell] CoPro 2015 - Mini-Symposium on Coordination Programming"
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17:06:55 <Jafet> Coprocessor programming?
17:08:16 <b_jonas> can't it be just coprogrammin?
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17:09:52 <Jafet> Coordination programming sounds like the category-theoretic generalisation of pair programming
17:10:35 <scoofy> rdococ: here's a GOTO implementation in tcl:
17:10:36 <scoofy> http://morpheus.spectralhead.com/txt/goto.tcl.txt
17:12:42 <rdococ> what's your wiki username?
17:14:28 <scoofy> test run: http://morpheus.spectralhead.com/txt/goto-testrun.txt
17:17:21 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Goto]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43077&oldid=43076 * Rdococ * (+201) /* Implementations */
17:18:20 <scoofy> i don't know if this was your desired behaviour :)
17:20:05 <scoofy> i don't think you can do anytihng useful with this, other than, nagging the user with questions :)
17:20:10 <rdococ> behaviour isnt very well defined at the moment.
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17:31:41 <scoofy> you could as well have defined a language that asks "do you want to halt? [Yes/No]"
17:32:14 <scoofy> would be about equally interesting :)
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17:38:42 <scoofy> or at least add some description to each state :)
17:39:17 <scoofy> "You are in room number #1. There is a big pile of stinking shit in front of you. Where do you want to go? (2,3,4)"
17:39:33 <rdococ> but it wont be simple then
17:39:47 <scoofy> it would be equally simple
17:40:00 <scoofy> GOTO "Description of the line" 2 3 4 5
17:40:06 <rdococ> PRINT "abc" ASK IF "left" GOTO 2 IF "right" GOTO 3
17:40:43 <scoofy> at least you could make a dumb textmode game with that. would be slightly more interesting for the user
17:41:21 <rdococ> or just add print command?
17:41:45 <scoofy> that could be part of the "GOTO" command, just as i wrote
17:41:48 <Jafet> Do you want to halt? [Yes/No/Cancel/Abort]
17:42:02 <scoofy> Do you want to halt? [Abort/Retry/Ignore]
17:42:46 <scoofy> though you could also add PRINT, and slowly reinvent BASIC
17:43:24 <b_jonas> no, you need LET for BASIC
17:43:34 <b_jonas> just PRINT and GOTO are still just a state machine
17:43:46 <b_jonas> PRINT, IF, GOTO, LET, DIM are BASIC
17:44:04 <b_jonas> plus INPUT or something if you want to take input
17:44:12 <scoofy> his GOTO already INPUTs stuff
17:44:47 <scoofy> basically, his GOTO is like a combination of PRINT/INPUT/GOTO
17:45:18 <scoofy> i mean.... "where do you want to go?" is already printed
17:45:37 <scoofy> otherwise, user would just see a blinking cursor
17:47:06 <scoofy> so if the printed output would be customizable, his GOTO would be PRINT/INPUT/GOTO, and could be used to make a dumb textmode game
17:47:30 <scoofy> like, STATE <description> <targets>
17:48:03 <scoofy> with the only goal of finding the exit, in other words, halting the automaton :)
17:48:55 <scoofy> "25: Ooops... you're stuck in an endless loop. Where do you want to go? (valid answers: 25)"
17:49:18 <scoofy> if you're stuck in an infinte loop, it'd be game over :)
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17:50:09 <b_jonas> scoofy: what? it's a finite state automaton, you're always stuck.
17:50:32 <scoofy> jumping outside the program, exits it
17:51:27 <b_jonas> you have to jump out the window to exit the infinite daily routine loop you're stuck in? that language paints a somewhat depressing picture of life.
17:51:44 <scoofy> address that to rdococ. he's the inventor ;)
17:51:46 <b_jonas> unless of course you're a wizard and can cast feather fall.
17:52:25 <scoofy> you can add feathers to a state
17:53:02 <scoofy> wihtout that, it's even more boring ;)
17:54:00 <MDude> Exiting without feathers tells the interpreter to exit with an error?
17:55:06 <b_jonas> we could add that to a language, jumping will damager you unless you have recently cast a FEATHER FALL statement
17:56:02 <b_jonas> and so does falling through a case foo: without something break;ing your fall
17:56:59 <scoofy> so switch fallthrough works only if you cast FEATHER FALL
17:57:04 <scoofy> otherwise, ?SYNTAX ERROR
17:57:06 <b_jonas> there are no GOTO statements, only JUMPs, and no COME FROM statements, only TRAPDOOR exits you can fall through
17:57:23 <b_jonas> scoofy: no, it's not an outright syntax error, it only damages you
17:57:29 <scoofy> there are no variables
17:57:36 <scoofy> so you cannot register the damage
17:57:37 <b_jonas> and you can heal afterwards
17:57:42 <b_jonas> just don't do it very often
17:57:44 <scoofy> you can only 'fall' into a different state :)
17:58:10 <b_jonas> no wait, I think it has to be d6 per every indent level after the first
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17:58:16 <b_jonas> falling one indent level is safe
17:58:39 <scoofy> 3 level indent fall: HP -= rand()*18
17:59:39 <b_jonas> or you can take the Prince of Persia route: falling one level is safe unless you fall on spikes, falling two levels takes off one life, falling three or more levels kills you, falling two levels while sword wielded also kills you
17:59:53 <b_jonas> falling on spikes always kills you
18:00:01 <b_jonas> just like running onto spikes
18:00:13 <scoofy> well... spikes are like 'quick exit'
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18:02:34 <b_jonas> oh, and of course you have to single step or jump over spikes, running through them or jumping on them also kills you
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18:05:22 <scoofy> "oh noez! you've fallen onto some spikes. you're dead."
18:06:26 <MDude> This is confusing if you also name your dog Spike.
18:06:44 <int-e> Are we playing Hunt the Wumpos now?
18:07:00 <b_jonas> int-e: yes. if you move to the room of the Wumpus, you die, and if you move a the room with bats, they transfer you to a random room.
18:07:17 <int-e> And the spikes are at the bottom of the pits?
18:07:26 <b_jonas> int-e: no, they can be anywhere
18:07:36 <int-e> b_jonas: Thanks, I'm glad not to be the only one who can't type.
18:08:08 <b_jonas> they often occur at the bottom of pits for some reason, even though they're sort of redundant there if the pit is unescapable
18:08:33 <b_jonas> though if we have feather fall, a wizard could also fly out
18:08:37 <scoofy> if you're in an infinte loop anyways... it doesn't matter if you also kill yourself with a spike
18:08:38 <b_jonas> I guess they're thinking of wizards
18:08:38 <int-e> In Prince of Persia 2, they also appear in walls :)
18:08:47 <scoofy> maybe that'd be a suicide way out of a pit
18:09:02 <b_jonas> but only on left walls, right?
18:09:06 <b_jonas> the right hand side of walls
18:09:25 <b_jonas> walls on your left when it kills you
18:09:44 <int-e> b_jonas: I suppose so since they would be incredibly hard (;-) to spot otherwise.
18:10:23 <int-e> I want to play that game through again but the flying heads are still tough.
18:10:42 <int-e> I don't know how I ever managed them.
18:11:42 <int-e> But sorry. We were talking about the Wumpus...
18:18:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43078&oldid=43061 * 168.99.197.18 * (+17) /* 99 bottles of beer */ some ands should have been ors, added parentheses, one point there was a two that should've been an n.
18:18:38 <rdococ> who touched my language
18:19:47 -!- numero_uno has joined.
18:20:06 <int-e> rdococ: looks like somebody who cares apparently fixed the example (it wasn't me)
18:20:16 <int-e> `relcome numero_uno
18:20:19 <HackEgo> numero_uno: Welcome to the international hub for esoteric programming language design and deployment! For more information, check out our wiki: <http://esolangs.org/>. (For the other kind of esoterica, try #esoteric on EFnet or DALnet.)
18:20:50 <MDude> Good to know, now all other Spaniards can be confirmed for non-craziness.
18:21:12 <int-e> numero_uno: I think you have the wrong channel, but it appears that you're connected to orwell.freenode.net, which is in the Netherlands.
18:22:19 <scoofy> many of whom are hungarian gypsies
18:24:03 <MDude> I guess I wouldn't mind, but this channel is about silly programming languages.
18:24:17 <numero_uno> this week i have made an order to a dutch smartshop
18:24:59 <numero_uno> it is non healthy but you can take it twice a year or so
18:25:45 <MDude> I'm in the US, so the closest I've had to amphetamines is ritalin.
18:25:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[And]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43079&oldid=43078 * Rdococ * (-7) k ty, updated it a bit more
18:27:00 <MDude> Not particulalry interested, actually. I get strange enough thoughts without help.
18:27:15 <numero_uno> more like cocaine than amphetamine they say
18:27:23 <scoofy> this is why they give it to kids
18:27:38 <numero_uno> i have tried many medications because i am on psychiatric treatment
18:27:39 <rdococ> why are you talking about drugs?
18:28:05 <MDude> Drugs based esolang when?
18:28:56 <MDude> This stuff: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Main_Page
18:29:10 -!- function has changed nick to const.
18:30:00 <numero_uno> the net is the mind and spirit of the Lord
18:30:09 <rdococ> you can't modify a const
18:30:10 <numero_uno> which combines all knowledges and languages
18:30:32 <MDude> As you can tell, it's mostly about math systems a few puns.
18:30:51 <numero_uno> does the Lord tell you that you are the elected ones?
18:31:02 <MDude> And a lot of things based on brainfuck, which is in fact less related to drugs than the name might suggest.
18:31:20 <numero_uno> i wanna know what is behind this conspiracy
18:31:22 <scoofy> const_cast <int *>(ptr);
18:31:57 <scoofy> with const_cast you can modify consts in c++ ....
18:31:58 <numero_uno> you can call it the devils mind but not is as evil as human minds
18:32:19 <int-e> ... which is undefined behavior so good luck
18:32:33 * int-e is trying to remember who the ops are.
18:32:56 <scoofy> i'm not much affected by judeo-christian bullshit
18:33:19 <MDude> You might want to join a different channe.
18:33:29 <int-e> Phantom_Hoover: nor is elliott
18:34:06 <shachaf> /msg chanserv access #esoteric list
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18:34:36 <int-e> shachaf: would you believe that I knew that (and had done that in the meantime...)?
18:35:16 <shachaf> but if you knew that why did you try to remember?
18:35:22 <scoofy> numero_uno: probably you'r looking for a different kind of #esoteric, not this one
18:35:34 <shachaf> what should i do in this circumstance?
18:36:13 <int-e> Well, /ignore seems to work fairly well anyway, thanks.
18:36:28 <oren> I got a brand-new flip phone!
18:36:30 <scoofy> yeah. just /ignore the multidimensional bullshit
18:36:34 <numero_uno> all those who dont love the Lord are dead
18:37:22 <numero_uno> and i have the power to repel all pagan sorceries
18:37:33 <oren> numero_uno: But the dead will rise at judgement day, right?
18:37:46 <rdococ> religious multidimensional crap
18:37:47 <Phantom_Hoover> numero_uno, are you that spanish guy who came in every now and then a year or two ago?
18:38:11 <numero_uno> i dont think i am that guy you refer to
18:39:00 <numero_uno> but i have seen this is not friendly at all
18:39:33 <MDude> It would probably be better to try /list to find a different channel then.
18:39:42 <numero_uno> i need to protect myself for not becoming so ill
18:40:52 <oren> If you want good vibes, I recommend the Beach Boys
18:40:53 <numero_uno> but sometimes war is needed to achieve peace
18:41:04 <MDude> That's fine, this is just a pretty dry math channel.
18:41:18 <MDude> Not really the best place for partying it up.
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18:44:12 <MDude> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FmL80fVMxo
18:49:52 <oren> Anyway as I was saying, I got a brand new flip phone!
18:50:37 <MDude> Do flip phones that take apps exist?
18:51:18 <MDude> Because I don't get why third party applications and flip covers are a mutually exclusive thing.
18:51:48 <MDude> Also woah, I need to get in the shower already.
18:51:48 <oren> this one has all the apps I would use - camera, browser, email, claculator, alarm clock
18:52:03 <MDude> Sounds like all I would use.
18:52:36 <MDude> I'd also like a QR code reader, but apparently all of those want to tie into some kind of GPS system?
18:52:53 <MDude> When I don't even want to use it for location-based ads, just code reading.
18:54:52 <zzo38> Even if the QR code contains binary data rather than text, you could save the picture and process it by your computer at home.
18:56:40 <MDude> The few times I've tried analyzing a QR code on the desktop it didn't register.
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18:57:26 <MDude> But maybe they were just bad codes or something. I'm pretty sure most of them were digitally inked images, actually.
18:57:54 <MDude> And I would think if someone's editing a QR code into a drawing on their computer, they'd test to make sure it works while they're at ir.
18:58:47 <zzo38> You could also just to have it save the data of the QR code to a file, whether it is binary or text.
18:59:25 <zzo38> And then it can be loaded on computer
19:00:29 <MDude> I'll ahve to wait until after shower time to look into it.
19:00:34 <zzo38> (Although if it is text, it can display the text too.)
19:02:04 <zzo38> (If the system has a clipboard function, it can then offer the user the option to copy the text to the clipboard; even if not, if it does have the ability to follow URLs and it is a URL it knows how to follow, it can offer the user that option too.)
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19:13:25 <oren> Yeah it doesn't appear to take third party apps, but it has a browser that runs javascript, so, that is ok
19:14:08 <oren> The phone in question is a LG F4NR
19:21:10 <zzo38> Can you still install files even if not a program? Maybe then a HTML document containing the JavaScripts that you want to run can be installed and then you can put your own program in like that.
19:21:47 <oren> zzo38: that is an interesting idea
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19:57:39 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43080&oldid=43058 * SuperJedi224 * (+326)
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20:45:46 <variable> rdococ: modifying a const is totally legal in C++ - sometimes
20:47:01 -!- variable has changed nick to const.
20:48:09 <Jafet> Your nickname is too mutable.
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20:49:26 <oren> variable: Really? doesn't that defeat the purpose?
20:50:06 <oren> which is that you can access it much fewer times, or inline the value, etc?
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20:53:40 <Jafet> `cc int f(const int *a, int *b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return f(&x, &x); }
20:53:48 <oren> like I thought that a caller of int foo(const char*s); is allowed to assume that the values pointed to by s won't change when calls to foo?
20:54:03 <scoofy> const char *s != char const *s
20:54:19 <const> oren: Jafet: I was thinking of either const_cast
20:54:30 <Jafet> `cc int main(void) { return 42; }
20:54:31 <const> http://sprunge.us/QfWb
20:55:00 <oren> blah, that is evil
20:55:09 <Jafet> `cc int f(const int *a, int *b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return printf("%d", f(&x, &x)); }
20:55:10 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:88: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default] \ 42
20:55:12 <oren> I don't like mutable
20:55:20 <const> oren: its meant for two types of things
20:55:31 <const> oren: internal caching variables; or mutexes for singletons
20:55:40 <const> I don't like it: it is evil: but it exists
20:55:45 <oren> Oh. that makes some sence
20:55:46 <pikhq> It's only forbidden to: mutate through a const pointer, or mutate a const object.
20:56:20 <Jafet> `cc int f(const restrict int *a, restrict int *b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return printf("%d", f(&x, &x)); }
20:56:21 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:22: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘int’ \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:106: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default]
20:56:54 <pikhq> Try "int printf();"
20:57:05 <const> or try using a local compiler :-p
20:57:30 <Jafet> `cc int f(const int *restrict a, int *restrict b) { *b = 42; return *a; } int main(void) { int x = 0; return printf("%d", f(&x, &x)); }
20:57:31 <HackEgo> /tmp/a.c:1:27: error: expected ‘;’, ‘,’ or ‘)’ before ‘a’ \ /tmp/a.c: In function ‘main’: \ /tmp/a.c:1:106: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function ‘printf’ [enabled by default]
20:57:51 <pikhq> Hint, the compile bug is that you're not declaring printf.
20:58:04 <HackEgo> #!/bin/sh \ echo "$@" > /tmp/a.c && gcc /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out
20:58:07 <pikhq> Oh, and it's in C90 mode for fucks sake
20:58:46 <Jafet> That's rather restrictive.
20:59:14 <oren> anyway, am I right that in
20:59:30 <zzo38> GNU89 mode is the mode I generally use.
20:59:42 <zzo38> (Unless the program expects a different mode)
21:00:09 <zzo38> No it isn't; GNU89 is much better than C99.
21:00:29 <oren> void foo(const char*s); int main(){char s[100]="hello"; foo(s); puts(s);}
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21:00:54 <pikhq> That is valid C90 but illegal C99.
21:01:04 <pikhq> It is illegal C90.
21:01:14 <pikhq> (main did not return)
21:01:36 <oren> in the above code, can teh compiler assume that the call to foo doesn't change s?
21:01:51 <zzo38> You have zero-length arrays and other stuff too in GNU89, as well as all of the good C99 stuff, but omit some bad stuffs too
21:02:02 <pikhq> I believe so. "s" is a pointer to a const object.
21:02:29 <pikhq> You can cast away the const-ness, but the accesses still aren't permitted to mutate the object.
21:02:36 <oren> I mean, can the compiler assume the code is equivalent to
21:02:43 <oren> void foo(const char*s); int main(){char s[100]="hello"; foo(s); puts("hello");}
21:02:49 <zzo38> pikhq: That makes sense to me
21:02:52 <Jafet> `` {echo '#!/bin/sh'; echo 'echo "$@" | sed 's/\\/\n/g' >/tmp/a.c && gcc -w -Wfatal-errors -std=c11 -O2 /tmp/a.c -o /tmp/a.out && /tmp/a.out'} >bin/cc && chmod +x bin/cc
21:02:57 <HackEgo> bash: {echo: command not found
21:02:59 <pikhq> foo could violate it but that would be UB.
21:04:31 <oren> see that's a bit of UB I agree with... const obejcts are const as far as caller is concerned.
21:04:49 <zzo38> I agree too it is sensible to me too
21:11:29 <Jafet> We can treat objects as const, but can we treat const as an object?
21:11:54 <const> Jafet: function and variable are my aliases
21:12:07 <oren> it's not nice to objectify people
21:13:23 <oren> Enrique Iglesias - Finally Found You is SUCH a stalker's anthem
21:13:50 <oren> "Either you're coming with me, or I'm coming with you"
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21:44:45 <zzo38> How can you get vector-synthesis instrument files?
21:48:23 <scoofy> and put them in a vector
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22:02:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Microscript]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43081 * SuperJedi224 * (+155) Created page with "Has anyone found a (non-trivial) quine for this language yet? ~~~~"
22:10:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43082&oldid=43080 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) Fixed another implementation error
22:16:04 <rdococ> can I make a language without any quines? wait, thats trivial...
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22:26:53 <zzo38> You can make quine in SQL too
22:29:40 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43083&oldid=43082 * SuperJedi224 * (-3314)
22:31:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43084&oldid=43081 * SuperJedi224 * (+97)
22:31:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43085&oldid=43084 * SuperJedi224 * (+94)
22:38:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43086&oldid=43083 * SuperJedi224 * (+37)
22:38:50 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43087&oldid=43086 * SuperJedi224 * (+2) /* Quine (14 bytes) */
22:41:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43088&oldid=43087 * SuperJedi224 * (+28)
22:46:41 <oerjan> * int-e is trying to remember who the ops are. <-- i think it is possible to ask ChanServ hth
22:47:08 <shachaf> apparently it's unhelpful to mention it
22:48:16 <rdococ> infinite tape, can move left or right, and flip current bit by objecting.
22:54:34 <MDude> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QwwEpGAfftc
22:55:20 <oerjan> <Phantom_Hoover> numero_uno, are you that spanish guy who came in every now and then a year or two ago? <-- if you are referring to the venezuelans using canaima, that's not just one guy - we're inexplicably in some list of recommended channels, i think.
22:55:37 <oerjan> (for the canaima distribution)
22:56:06 <Phantom_Hoover> i can't believe you actually found out the story behind that and i can't believe the actual story
22:56:27 <oerjan> Phantom_Hoover: well i haven't _totally_ confirmed it.
22:56:47 <rdococ> HOLD IT! scoofy, you said you didnt know what objecting meant... and now you just objected???
22:56:51 <oerjan> although the last guy i managed to ask said he found in his client or something
22:57:05 * oerjan doesn't remember the exact words either
22:58:05 <scoofy> rdococ: how do you 'object' a bit
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23:01:44 <rdococ> wat does it mean to "subject"?
23:06:22 <Taneb> oerjan, stop subjecting rdococ to your torment
23:06:33 <boily> rdococ: beware today's oerjan. he's evil
23:07:55 <rdococ> OBJECTION! I am not being tormented.
23:08:21 <boily> rdococ has rTorment and rN+++.
23:08:47 <rdococ> Do you have any proof of these claims?
23:09:18 <boily> I require some claimprooves twh
23:20:47 * rdococ objects to my nickname being used as a verb
23:20:58 <rdococ> wait... if I change my nickname to Nick...
23:21:11 <rdococ> no scrap that I'll change it to Miles...
23:21:53 * oren orens ornery oranges
23:24:13 <Jafet> Quit subjecting the poor transitive verbs already.
23:24:22 * oerjan now uses it instead rdococ a preposition
23:24:24 <Jafet> I don't think they enjoy.
23:46:07 <tswett> Is there a term for a function f : 2^S -> 2^T (those being the power sets of sets S and T) which has the property that f(A union B) = f(A) intersect f(B)?
23:46:51 <tswett> If I had to make up a word for such a function, it'd be "contravariant".
23:49:53 <zzo38> I don't know if it is or not
23:55:57 <oerjan> if you compose with complement you get something that's (finite) union-preserving
23:57:43 <boily> tswett: I prefer ntravariant functions.
23:57:53 <boily> (also, tswellott.)
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01:26:59 <boily> AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGH.
01:27:08 <boily> fsck fsck fsck fsck fsck.
01:27:37 * boily metaphorically flips the mapole over
01:30:51 * oerjan suspects boily to be a little annoyed
01:32:35 <boily> probably my best YASD, and a first.
01:34:10 * oerjan uses acronym recognition. it's super effective!
01:35:12 <oerjan> no, gg doesn't update in several hours yet. well, normally.
01:35:32 <boily> are we speaking about the same gg twh?
01:36:25 <oerjan> surely there's only one gg hth
01:37:07 * oerjan checks freefall in the meantime
01:37:41 <boily> no, they aren't the same gges.
01:38:42 <boily> *ONOMATOPOIETIC REVELATION*
01:39:51 * oerjan wonders if that minus ten is celsius or fahrenheit, although the latter would probably be anachronistic in a scifi comic.
01:41:33 <oerjan> hm no gg update for today but an extra announcement yesterday
01:42:04 <Jafet> dcss has deep gameplay.
01:43:46 <boily> Jafet: I was doing Cocytus after having completed Dis. I drowned in Coc:7. very shameful.
01:48:01 <oerjan> how can one drown in cocytus, it should be completely frozen over. </obscure origin quibbling>
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01:51:22 <boily> oerjan: no ice in crawl hth
01:52:03 <boily> there's shallow water, there's deep water. there's even laval! but no ice.
01:53:58 <boily> oh well. time to sleep.
01:54:28 <oren> laval? what is a rocket engine nozzle doing in hell?
01:55:13 <boily> oren: helloren. you haven't seen anything there. muscle memory strikes again... Laval University is where I studied.
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01:57:33 <oerjan> @ask boily So, why did you study in hell, then?
02:00:59 <Jafet> Rocket nozzles? Or maybe some other burning things.
02:15:56 <zzo38> Search opponent's hand, draw pile, side cards, and trash for any number of evolution cards that can evolve from opponent's pokemons already in play and/or the other cards you picked; you must then play all such cards on opponent's side to evolve their pokemons (if there is more than one way, you can choose); opponent's draw pile and side cards are mixed up afterward.
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02:24:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43089&oldid=43069 * Xavo * (+315)
02:25:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Xavo]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43090 * Xavo * (+35) Created page with "Oh hey there. I made [[Hi\n|hi\n]."
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02:26:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Xavo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43091&oldid=43090 * Xavo * (+4)
02:27:16 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Xavo]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43092&oldid=43091 * Xavo * (-1)
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02:29:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Joke language list]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43093&oldid=42994 * Xavo * (+50) /* General languages */
02:36:52 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Hi\n]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43094&oldid=43089 * Xavo * (+129) added ruby interpreter
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03:24:12 * rdococ stays alive by the terrible garbage collection
03:28:09 <zzo38> Now I even made up two vanguard cards of Magic: the Gathering.
03:30:36 <zzo38> Axenwhite's Avatar {-} Vanguard (+0/+1) ;; Whenever you would draw a card, if you have already drawn a card this turn, instead an opponent of your choice draws a card and you gain 1 life. ;; {4}: Each player draws a card. You may put the top card of your graveyard on top of your library.
03:31:05 <zzo38> Gxxyuxihuvxi's High Avatar {-} Vanguard (-2/+1) ;; All nonland cards you own with a mana cost gain madness with a madness cost equal to their mana cost plus {3} and all normal single-colored mana symbols changed into Phyrexian mana of that color. ;; All lands you control gain "{T}, Discard a card: Add {1} to your mana pool or you may reduce your maximum hand size by one until the beginning of the next turn."
03:38:48 <zzo38> Do you have any more feature suggestion and/or complaint and/or question of AmigaMML?
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04:08:57 <oren> the last levels of mario bros U are impossibru
04:15:35 <zzo38> Is "impossibru" even a real word?
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04:26:21 <oren> not a real word, but a meme word
04:26:44 <oren> and yeah, they are at least as hard as the hardest classic games
04:28:45 <zzo38> OK, then that is good if it is not too easy.
04:29:17 <oren> Also, they throw this new tilt mechanic at you in the last world, where you tilt the controller.
04:30:19 <zzo38> Is it in the manual?
04:30:49 <zzo38> Well, that's no good. They should put it in the manual that you have to tilt the controller.
04:31:27 <oren> There's an icon that appears on the screen telling you that you have to tilt it, but it is still annoying
04:32:33 <Lyka|Phone> the current version of octopus (aka fourfuck) runs fully off of an sd card
04:33:33 <Lyka|Phone> the interpreter is still on the device
04:34:28 <Lyka|Phone> hard part right now is modifying the code to allow subroutines
04:37:10 <Lyka|Phone> I wrote a guess a number program to test the system
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04:54:38 <Sgeo> How did I accidentally close out of #esoteric?
04:55:12 <Sgeo> It's like I didn't autorejoin when i opened IRC
04:55:22 <Sgeo> Autojoin was unchecked :(
05:00:52 <oren> I BEAT BOWSER!
05:32:28 <Sgeo> DOSBox runs on the web?
05:34:15 <Sgeo> https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos
05:34:45 <Sgeo> I wonder when today's expensive machines will be trivially emulatable
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05:45:39 <Sgeo> For some reason I thought Tucows stopped existing
05:52:34 <Sgeo> https://archive.org/details/stop-the-rock
05:52:40 <Sgeo> I need to play this again ASASP
05:56:39 <Sgeo> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbXfyH0rt3M&index=1&list=PL60DDD0F77698B8EB
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07:16:10 <oren> people who are writing javascript should not abbreviate google analytics to googanal
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07:18:58 <oren> because it is visible to users
07:18:58 <zzo38> When are they going to invent quantum bitcoins?
07:20:57 <zzo38> If <X| is constant and |Y> varies, if <X|Y> = 0 implies <X|T|Y> = 0 then what is the property of T called?
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07:58:45 <mroman_> fungot: welcome to the fnord
07:58:45 <fungot> mroman_: go's confusing... i like ruby kind of a vacation but after 7 months it's getting seriously old and there's still battery left.
07:59:52 <mroman_> fungot: Have you heard of the random busy beaver?
07:59:53 <fungot> mroman_: and the fnord is likely to be i/ o would probably be a presentation by shriram krishnamurthi and is at +1 digs atm
08:00:06 <mroman_> It's like the busy beaver except that the tape is initialized completely randomly.
08:01:31 <mroman_> and RBB(n) is the expected number of ones a random busy beaver with n states writes on the tape while still halting.
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09:30:54 <oren> compression scheme: replace any file that has been archived by the internet archive, with a text file containing the URL. if it hasn't been, the compressor shall upload the file and wait for it to be archived
09:32:42 <oren> this compression scheme exceeds the capabilities of known compressors manyfold, for interesting inputs
09:33:27 <b_jonas> oren: that would be bad for small files
09:33:31 <b_jonas> do it for large files only
09:33:36 <b_jonas> and ones that are rarely accessed
09:33:58 <b_jonas> uploading a terabyte sized database file after each single write would be very bad
09:38:34 <b_jonas> anyway, that's a variant on Linus's old saying
09:39:14 <b_jonas> Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it – Linus Torvalds
09:39:22 <b_jonas> from http://groups.google.com/group/linux.dev.kernel/msg/76ae734d543e396d?pli=1
09:54:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43095&oldid=43088 * 72.74.32.143 * (-2) Fixed a mistake in the documentation
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12:29:56 <rdococ> "Last In, First Out (LIFO)"? "What is pushed onto the stack first, will be popped off last"? ... contradiction?
12:31:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43096&oldid=30976 * Rdococ * (+0) corrected a puzzling contradiction
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12:58:30 <mroman_> that's a read only storage capable of storing one element
12:59:24 <mroman_> FOLO is read once - write never
13:05:09 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Stack]] M http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43097&oldid=43096 * 0x0dea * (+0) LIFO and FILO are equivalent, but the former is more common and, in this case as in most, better conveys intent.
13:09:20 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 <zzo38> If <X| is constant and |Y> varies, if <X|Y> = 0 implies <X|T|Y> = 0 then what is the property of T called? <-- i think that's equivalent to "X is an eigenvector of T^*"
13:09:31 <mroman_> also there's the LILO Queue
13:11:31 <mroman_> which is the same as a FIFO Queue
13:18:24 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 because if <X|T| is not proportional to <X|, then an application of gram-schmidt gives you a vector |Y> that's orthogonal to the first but not the last one
13:21:31 <mroman_> I'm so tired of these LOFO Queues.
13:22:00 <mroman_> Is gram-schmidt the base change thingy?
13:22:14 <oerjan> mroman_: it's the base _finding_ thingy.
13:22:33 <mroman_> orthonormal base finding thingy
13:23:28 <oerjan> @tell zzo38 oops *last but not the first one
13:25:01 <oerjan> nah i don't blame that
13:25:17 <oerjan> it carries its own punishment.
13:25:34 <mroman_> I blame log-normal distributions.
13:27:55 <mroman_> why is "lineare hülle" in english not "linear hull" but "linear span"
13:28:14 <mroman_> I'm just gonna call it linear thingy
13:30:18 <oerjan> there's "convex hull", though.
13:30:57 <mroman_> Math with simple english would be fun
13:31:09 <mroman_> in munroe's "thing explainer"-style
13:31:29 <oerjan> someone pointed out "explainer" is not in the wordlist he uses
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13:39:47 <oerjan> hm actually LIFO is more technically correct than FILO
13:40:17 <oerjan> because only the first applies if you sometimes empty the stack not at the end
13:42:02 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Friedz * New user account
13:44:56 <mroman_> http://codepad.org/YSumHKy7
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14:41:25 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Fission]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43098&oldid=39076 * 50.207.43.222 * (+43)
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14:45:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43099&oldid=43095 * 50.207.43.222 * (+40)
14:52:26 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43100&oldid=43099 * SuperJedi224 * (+2) /* Cat Program (9 bytes) */
14:53:38 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43101&oldid=43100 * SuperJedi224 * (+46)
14:54:10 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43102&oldid=43101 * SuperJedi224 * (+0) /* Reverse Quine (12 bytes) */
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15:46:26 <rdococ> I want to make a language where programs are formulae. Unfortunately, the 'Formula' programming language... already exists.
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15:53:45 <MDude> What kind of formula?
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16:06:59 <MDude> You culd call it formulated, or formulations.
16:07:46 <MDude> Or Formulae, and just let their be another language with a name differeing by exactly one letter.
16:13:52 <scoofy> rdococ: http://esolangs.org/wiki/Polynomial
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16:24:09 <rdococ> that language also exists
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16:33:44 <oren> I prefer a FIGO architecture
16:33:57 <oren> first in, garbage out
16:34:31 <oren> although a GIFO might be more useful
16:35:48 <oren> how about formoola
16:35:56 <pikhq> Could you maybe work on garbage in code out?
16:36:17 <rdococ> GIOO: garbage in, output out... oh wait... its called malbolge...
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17:00:16 <scoofy> garbage in, garbage out
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17:55:39 <zzo38> " _real_ men just upload their important stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it" ... I might sometimes to backup on DVD (currently I can't though), but still I wish to allow rest of the world to mirror my public stuff anyways; not FTP though, but I do have HTTP and Gopher servers. If you want to make your own public archives of text file and free software and so on you can mirror mine if it is something that would go in what kind of a
17:55:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 46m 27s ago: <zzo38> If <X| is constant and |Y> varies, if <X|Y> = 0 implies <X|T|Y> = 0 then what is the property of T called? <-- i think that's equivalent to "X is an eigenvector of T^*"
17:55:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 37m 24s ago: because if <X|T| is not proportional to <X|, then an application of gram-schmidt gives you a vector |Y> that's orthogonal to the first but not the last one
17:55:48 <lambdabot> oerjan said 4h 32m 20s ago: oops *last but not the first one
18:06:30 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Huh?]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43103&oldid=42216 * 72.38.29.19 * (+64) /* External resources */
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18:48:42 <Taneb> Well, I passed my AI module
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18:50:09 <Taneb> Yes but with less D and more AI
18:50:46 <shachaf> what if you just barely pass it
18:51:26 <Taneb> Unfortunately I don't think there are many UK universities with a grade system with Ds
18:52:02 <b_jonas> shachaf: no, more like a Z-module
18:54:16 <rdococ> Oerjan (Talk | contribs) moved page Function to Funciton over a redirect without leaving a redirect
18:54:36 <rdococ> should I still type my language on the Function page?
18:54:52 <rdococ> or should I try to avoid a naming conflict?
18:55:11 <Taneb> Eh, there's two languages called Clue
18:55:15 <Taneb> And two called Numberwang
18:55:21 <Taneb> Not gonna be that big of a deal
18:55:28 <Taneb> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Clue
18:55:56 <ais523> I was so happy about that
18:56:01 <ais523> because it meant I got to make a disambiguation page
18:56:18 <ais523> or, hmm, seems like it was actually elliott who made the page
18:56:20 <function> rdococ: -NickServ- Registered : Jul 07 17:18:02 2014 (46w 4d 1h ago)
18:58:28 <function> rdococ: -NickServ- Spydar007 has enabled nick protection
18:58:38 <function> rdococ: so if you chose to /nick error and don't identify
19:07:25 <J_Arcane> I think I hate the Mac keyboard.
19:07:44 <ais523> I know I hate the Mac keyboard
19:07:56 <rdococ> I'll call my language 'Delegate'
19:08:21 <J_Arcane> A three-finger combination just to get curly braces on a Finnish is fucking stupid, and I can't seem to find a decent solution to fix it.
19:08:43 <rdococ> I don't have a Mac keyboard
19:09:15 <J_Arcane> I may just have to force myself to relearn a US layout.
19:09:54 <ais523> J_Arcane: because Macs don't have an altgr?
19:10:09 <J_Arcane> Yeah, I guess tha'ts part of the problem.
19:10:30 <J_Arcane> The other part is a whole huge extra bunch of special character shortcuts that I don't need taking up all the space.
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19:37:59 <oren> J_Arcane: set your text format to ISO646-FI. Then write int main()ä printf("hello, world!Ön"); å
19:38:43 <ais523> oren: ISO646 is a subset of ASCII, right;
19:38:56 <ais523> I guess the ä and Ö and å map to ASCII characters?
19:39:09 <oren> Yeah, and ISO646-FI replaces the characters {}\|[] with national ones
19:39:46 <oren> So if you type the program in ISO646-FI, then have the compiler read it as ascii it will work fine
19:39:52 <ais523> this is why trigraphs were invented
19:40:01 <ais523> although digraphs make more sense
19:40:15 <ais523> (the difference is that digraphs aren't parsed inside comments, string literals, and the like)
19:40:31 <ais523> (technically they're alternate spellings of tokens, rather than textual substitutions)
19:40:54 <pikhq> Except trigraphs don't *quite* work for the purpose though -- C still requires those characters to exist, at least at run time.
19:41:13 <pikhq> It also requires them to not vary in encoding with LC_CTYPE and requires them to be in a single char.
19:41:31 <oren> `run echo 'int main()ä printf("hello, world!Ön"); å' | iconv -futf-8 -tiso646-fi
19:41:43 <HackEgo> int main(){ printf("hello, world!\n"); }
19:42:33 <oren> does that help you type, J_Arcane!
19:42:47 <J_Arcane> I don't even know what to do with that information. XD
19:42:49 <pikhq> (though there is no requirement that the source and execution character sets are the *same*...)
19:45:04 <oren> So yeah: []\ => äåö and {}| => ÄÅÖ
19:45:23 <oren> er, that's slighlt wrong
19:45:42 <J_Arcane> That would honestly be my ideal remap, I just can't figure out how to make ukelele do it.
19:48:07 <oren> Well you could always just learn to read code that looks like if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä
19:48:39 <oren> then you can use iconv
19:49:03 <oren> put it in your makefile, annoy everyone who tries to read your code?
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19:50:18 <b_jonas> mind you, you can use _ in some smalltalk variants iirc because it used to mean left arrow in some charsets,
19:50:28 <FireFly> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | tr '[\]{|}' 'ÅÄÖåäö'
19:50:29 <HackEgo> if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä
19:50:32 <b_jonas> and people still use ^ for power because it used to mean up arrow
19:50:40 <FireFly> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | tr 'ÅÄÖåäö' '[\]{|}'
19:50:41 <HackEgo> if(a}|i}] == b}|i}] }}}} a}|i}] == 0 }}}} b}|i}] == 0)}}
19:50:51 <b_jonas> it gets even funnier if you use backslash overwrite stuff in intercal
19:51:10 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | tr 'ÅÄÖåäö' '[]\{}|'
19:51:11 <HackEgo> if(a|}i|] == b|}i|] |||| a|}i|] == 0 |||| b|}i|] == 0)||
19:51:20 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | tr 'ÅÄÖåäö' '[]\\{}|'
19:51:21 <HackEgo> if(a|{i|] == b|{i|] |||| a|{i|] == 0 |||| b|{i|] == 0)||
19:52:09 <oren> oh no unicode support in tr
19:52:13 <FireFly> should the backslash be doubly escaped?
19:52:59 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | perl -pe y/ÅÄÖåäö/[]\\{}|/
19:53:00 <HackEgo> bash: /: Is a directory \ Transliteration replacement not terminated at -e line 1.
19:53:09 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | perl -pe 'y/ÅÄÖåäö/[]\\{}|/'
19:53:10 <HackEgo> if(a[{i[] == b[{i[] [|[| a[{i[] == 0 [|[| b[{i[] == 0)[|
19:53:49 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | sed -e 'y/ÅÄÖåäö/[]\\{}|/'
19:53:52 <HackEgo> if(a]i[ == b]i[ || a]i[ == 0 || b]i[ == 0)}
19:54:05 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | sed -e 'y/ÅÄÖåäö/][\\}{|/'
19:54:06 <HackEgo> if(a[i] == b[i] || a[i] == 0 || b[i] == 0){
19:54:08 <FireFly> What's the point of using the three characters after the English alphabet, if you don't put the letters in the right order?
19:54:37 * FireFly assumed ISO646-{FI,SE} used ÅÄÖåäö
19:54:50 <FireFly> Looks like the danes won this round
19:54:52 <oren> `` echo 'if(aÄiÅ == bÄiÅ öö aÄiÅ == 0 öö bÄiÅ == 0)ä' | iconv -futf-8 -tiso646-fi
19:54:53 <HackEgo> if(a[i] == b[i] || a[i] == 0 || b[i] == 0){
19:55:35 <b_jonas> mind you, I'm not sure ??< char buf??(256??); scanf("%.256s", buf); printf("hello, %s??/n", buf); ??> looks that much better than é char bufÉ256Ü; scanf("%.256s", buf); printf("hello, %sÖn", buf); ü
19:55:46 <b_jonas> and the latter is at least easy to type, and you can get used to reading it
19:56:16 <oren> I got used to half my fonts having yen signs pretty quick
19:56:33 <b_jonas> in the old era with home PCs with no back storage and only a BASIC interpreter, there used to be ones that that had localized fonts in the rom, and some rarer characters like # displayed wrong,
19:56:43 <FireFly> `` for lang in fi se no dk; do iconv -f utf-8 -t iso646-$lang <<<'[\]{|}'; done
19:56:44 <HackEgo> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
19:56:57 <b_jonas> so the statement to write to a file was like PRINTÉ rather than PRINT#
19:57:05 <b_jonas> that's not even iso646 by the way
19:57:58 <b_jonas> there's a good reason BASIC doesn't use any of @[]^{|}~ and only newer variants use \_
19:58:25 <b_jonas> they do use ^ but that's fine, it's just displayed as an up arrow
19:58:37 <zzo38> Yes, on some old ASCII systems it is up arrow
19:58:50 <b_jonas> I wouldn't call those ASCII but sure
19:58:53 <oren> `` for lang in fi se no dk; do iconv -futf-8 -tiso646-$lang <<<'[\]{|}'; done
19:58:54 <HackEgo> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0 \ iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
19:58:56 <b_jonas> some ASCII-derived systems
19:59:07 <b_jonas> before everyone converged to ASCII
19:59:12 <FireFly> Can you transmit BASIC with Baudot code in letter mode?
19:59:12 <zzo38> Actually I think the one with up arrow is still ASCII, just it is a old kind of ASCII
19:59:20 <oren> `` for lang in fi se no dk; do iconv -tutf-8 -fiso646-$lang <<<'[\]{|}'; done
19:59:21 <HackEgo> ÄÖÅäöå \ ÄÖÅäöå \ ÆØÅæøå \ ÆØÅæøå
19:59:46 <b_jonas> zzo38: what? is left arrow for _ and yen sign for ` and pound sign for # ASCII too?
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20:00:14 <FireFly> Yes, hence the ¥ in filenames
20:00:36 <b_jonas> FireFly: that's never made sense to me though
20:01:22 <b_jonas> PCs used cp437 in text mode from the start, and that has a yen symbol
20:01:34 <b_jonas> what variant of DOS ever used such terminals?
20:01:53 <b_jonas> maybe some serial terminal stuff when you don't have an expensive cga or monochrome card?
20:02:06 <b_jonas> or did the monochrome card not support 437?
20:02:07 <oren> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fko17 <<<'DMITRIJ'
20:02:08 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `ko17' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
20:02:15 <oren> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fKO17 <<<'DMITRIJ'
20:02:16 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `KO17' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
20:02:22 <oren> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fKOI7 <<<'DMITRIJ'
20:02:23 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `KOI7' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
20:02:45 <b_jonas> or is this about graphics mode where you could display only the low 128 characters because you couldn't read the vga card rom directly and the rom had a copy of only half of the font and ram is expensive?
20:02:49 <HackEgo> http://codu.org/projects/hackbot/fshg/index.cgi/file/tip/paste/paste.7875
20:03:28 <b_jonas> maybe it's for VGA cards where you could change the font]
20:03:33 <oren> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fKOI-7 <<<'dmitrij'
20:03:33 <FireFly> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fkoi-7 <<<'DMITRIJ'
20:03:40 <b_jonas> and you changed the font to match a legacy character set used for non-DOS
20:05:04 <oren> koi7 is fun because the letters are roughly corresponding to the equivalent roman letters
20:05:37 <fizzie> b_jonas: I was under the impression that it's legitimately an up-arrow in ASCII-63 (ASA X3.4-1963), and all this about a ^ is just newfangled ASCII-67 (ANSI X3.4-1967) nonsense.
20:05:45 <FireFly> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fkoi-7 <<<USSR
20:05:45 <zzo38> How can I program Mozilla to refuse to accept cookies with certain names?
20:05:57 <ais523> zzo38: I think the easiest way would be to write an extension
20:06:02 <b_jonas> FireFly: dunno, probably because baudot has like a ton of incompatible national character sets. you could make a BASIC character set easily.
20:06:05 <oren> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fKOI7 <<<'SSSR'
20:06:06 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion from `KOI7' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
20:06:12 <oren> `` iconv -tutf-8 -fKOI-7 <<<'SSSR'
20:06:14 <ais523> I started writing an extension to edit the URL for Wikia to add &useskin=monobook or ?useskin=monobook, but got fed p
20:06:19 <ais523> so now I do it by hand
20:06:20 <zzo38> Yes, but how do you do such extension?
20:06:29 <ais523> I think there are guides on the Mozilla website somewhere
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20:06:40 <b_jonas> `` piconv -tutf-8 -fKOI-7 <<<'SSSR'
20:06:41 <HackEgo> Unknown option: tutf-8 \ Unknown option: fKOI-7 \ piconv [-f from_encoding] [-t to_encoding] [-s string] [files...] \ piconv -l \ piconv -r encoding_alias \ -l,--list \ lists all available encodings \ -r,--resolve encoding_alias \ resolve encoding to its (Encode) canonical name \ -f,--from from_encoding \ when omitted, the cur
20:06:50 <b_jonas> `` piconv -t utf-8 -f KOI-7 <<<'SSSR' # fool
20:06:51 <HackEgo> Unknown encoding 'KOI-7' at /usr/bin/piconv line 95
20:07:01 <b_jonas> `` piconv -t utf-8 -f KOI-RU <<<'SSSR' # fool
20:07:02 <HackEgo> Unknown encoding 'KOI-RU' at /usr/bin/piconv line 95
20:07:07 <FireFly> For something simple like the monobook thing I would just write a userscript and use Scriptish
20:07:44 <HackEgo> Unknown option: version \ piconv [-f from_encoding] [-t to_encoding] [-s string] [files...] \ piconv -l \ piconv -r encoding_alias \ -l,--list \ lists all available encodings \ -r,--resolve encoding_alias \ resolve encoding to its (Encode) canonical name \ -f,--from from_encoding \ when omitted, the current locale will be used
20:07:49 <b_jonas> (piconv also doesn't have CWI encoding)
20:08:24 <fizzie> `run iconv -tascii//translit -fKOI-7 <<<'SSSR'
20:08:34 <fizzie> Aw, come on, you can totally approximate that just fine.
20:08:42 <b_jonas> I guess you have to try libICU, that has like a ton of encodings
20:10:52 <FireFly> `` iconv -tascii/translit -futf-8 <<<'ほたる'
20:10:52 <HackEgo> iconv: conversion to `ascii/translit' is not supported \ Try `iconv --help' or `iconv --usage' for more information.
20:11:04 <FireFly> `` iconv -tascii//translit -futf-8 <<<'ほたる'
20:11:15 <b_jonas> for ascii approximations, try the big table in elinks. that rewrites cyrillic characters to ascii and stuff like that.
20:11:38 <b_jonas> double slash because single slash can occur in character set names
20:11:40 <zzo38> I want to make Mozilla to modify some cookies as it is receiving them
20:11:55 <b_jonas> and someone would eventually come up with one ending in /translit probably
20:11:56 <zzo38> What is the hook for that?
20:12:38 <b_jonas> zzo38: are the cookies set by http response headers or by javascript? you can try a proxy that rewrites either the request or response headers
20:13:01 <zzo38> I don't know who they are set by
20:13:18 <fizzie> `run iconv -tascii//translit -futf-8 <<<'bläh blööh blårp'
20:13:19 <b_jonas> zzo38: http or https? rewrite them in the request
20:13:23 <fizzie> It can do those, at least.
20:13:23 <FireFly> I stumbled upon an archaic APL encoding a while ago that had characters for underlined ASCII letters and digits, and was a bit surprised to not find any Unicode codepoints matching them exactly (but a combining underline did the job just fine)
20:13:28 <b_jonas> unless they're also _read_ by javascript
20:14:23 <b_jonas> FireFly: doesn't underlined ascii letter just represent uppercase when the tty can't print lowercase letters?
20:14:45 <FireFly> What is an uppercase digit though?
20:14:48 <zzo38> I don't know if they are, but mainly, I want it to force all cookies into insecure mode and whenever it tries to set a cookie named "forceHTTPS" to set its value to "0" instead of the value it is trying to set.
20:14:59 <FireFly> I think there were underlined letters of both cases, too
20:15:10 <b_jonas> FireFly: is there full underlined set of digits, or just 0?
20:15:26 <b_jonas> ok, probably not that then
20:15:50 <zzo38> These cookies are causing problems with MediaWiki; changing them manually fixes it at least temporarily but sometimes it tries to change it again later
20:15:53 <b_jonas> APL was used on actual printing ttys so they used a lot of overprint to increase the charset
20:16:18 <FireFly> Yeah, this particular charset made use of that by simulating the overstriking
20:16:29 <b_jonas> zzo38: can't you overwrite that in the settings if you're logged in?
20:16:39 <b_jonas> zzo38: or with custom javascript if you're logged in?
20:16:48 <zzo38> b_jonas: No, the new version of MediaWiki seems to have removed that custom setting.
20:17:05 <b_jonas> zzo38: heck... but they still support http?
20:17:19 <zzo38> Yes but only if you edit the cookies manually
20:17:45 <b_jonas> zzo38: I'd recommend custom javascript then. do you know how to set it up in mediawiki? if not, I can tell
20:17:55 <zzo38> Yes I do know how to set that up
20:17:55 <b_jonas> I don't know about globally as an admin
20:18:07 <FireFly> A̲L̲F̲←'abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyzABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZA̲B̲C̲D̲E̲F̲G̲H̲I̲J̲K̲L̲M̲N̲O̲P̲Q̲R̲S̲T̲U̲V̲W̲X̲Y̲Z̲Δ⍙_⁻' oh, maybe it was just uppercase letters
20:18:18 <b_jonas> though that can cause problems if you want to run with javascript disabled
20:18:25 <FireFly> and they seemed to be used to group letters forming an identifier together
20:18:34 <zzo38> But some cookies may say that you aren't supposed to set them by JavaScripts, too, I think, as well as it won't work if scripts is disabled
20:20:33 <b_jonas> zzo38: maybe try rewriting in a proxy then
20:21:20 <b_jonas> zzo38: wait, try asking on #mediawiki-tech in case they can help
20:21:21 <zzo38> You can type _A_B_C_D and so on and that can then be used by the programming language if it uses underlined letters in your program
20:22:22 <b_jonas> or ask the mediawiki guys elsewhere
20:22:34 <b_jonas> possibly on #mediawiki or on their wiki or something
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20:32:07 <oren> `` echo -e '\e$@47' | iconv -tutf-8 -fiso-2022-JP
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20:35:30 <oren> `` echo -e '\e$@!j' | iconv -tutf-8 -fiso-2022-JP
20:36:51 <oren> `` echo -e '\e$#H#E#L#L#Oj' | iconv -tutf-8 -fiso-2022-JP
20:37:06 <oren> `` echo -e '\e$@#H#E#L#L#Oj' | iconv -tutf-8 -fiso-2022-JP
20:37:07 <HackEgo> ＨＥＬＬＯiconv: illegal input sequence at position 13
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20:38:50 <oren> `` echo -e '\e$@#H#E#L#L#O!!#W#O#R#L#D!*' | iconv -tutf-8 -fiso-2022-JP
20:39:29 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43104&oldid=43102 * SuperJedi224 * (-2) /* Cat Program (10 bytes) */
20:40:13 <oren> `` echo -e '\102A' | iconv -tutf-8 -fsjis
20:40:51 <oren> `` echo -e '\0102A' | iconv -tutf-8 -fsjis
20:41:49 <oren> `` echo -e '\0202A' | iconv -tutf-8 -fsjis
20:41:50 <HackEgo> iconv: illegal input sequence at position 0
20:43:35 <oren> `` echo -e '\0202Q' | iconv -tutf-8 -fsjis
20:44:36 <oren> shift jis makes a lot less sense than the 7 bit encodings it replaced
20:45:31 <fizzie> `run iconv -tascii//translit -futf-8 <<<'weiß' # also transliterated
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20:50:45 <zzo38> Shift-JIS is still better for fixpitch text that can have narrow and wide letters, than some others though, but still isn't all that perfect
20:53:26 <oren> EUC is better but rarely used
20:53:59 <zzo38> I don't know how EUC works but maybe it is better
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20:57:23 <oren> Well all chars in ascii are one character, and all chars in JIS-208 are two characters, so the width of most strings will equal their length in bytes
20:57:45 <zzo38> Yes that is the good thing about using such encodings for terminal displays
20:58:10 <oren> but it differs in that the half-width katakana are two characters, (but these are rarely used anyway).
21:00:18 <oren> and it removes the issue of ascii bytes occurring inside a double-byte character, hence it can be used in programs designed for ascii
21:00:33 <zzo38> Yes, that is advantage too
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21:01:32 <zzo38> However, a way to fix the issue of the half-width can be to make the prefix to it to be a "control code" and use that prefix only for additional half-width characters. If it already does that then I think it work good
21:03:17 <oren> I really don't like the way Unicode passes over the entire issue of fixed-width. There's no standard for which unicode characters are one space versus two (or even three). At least the defacto japanese standards recognise that the isssue EXISTS...
21:03:35 <zzo38> Unicode is terrible for this purpose, Japanese work better
21:04:02 <oren> The chinese and korean standards work well too
21:04:30 <APic> The eastern World is far beyond us.
21:07:02 <pikhq> oren: Unicode has a DB with precisely that in it though.
21:07:47 <pikhq> And wcswidth should get you exactly that info in C...
21:09:19 <zzo38> It is still a stupid way to do it despite that though
21:10:07 <oren> Ok. So is an EN SPACE halfwidth? What about an EM SPACE or a FIGURE SPACE?
21:10:46 <b_jonas> oren: I thought the use of half-width katakaan was displays that could only handle a single character set of limited size and one character per cell, like VGA, which is limited to a set of at most 512 characters, so I think it would be of no use on a display that supports JIS.
21:10:50 <b_jonas> But maybe it has other uses too.
21:11:22 <b_jonas> oren: yep, that's a problem.
21:11:31 <zzo38> PC character set is good for limited display like that too
21:11:42 <b_jonas> especially because when you output to a terminal, you want to know what widths it uses.
21:11:59 <b_jonas> you can query it from the terminal, but that's a bit ugly.
21:12:14 <b_jonas> (as in, you can query the cursor position, and using that you can tell the width of chars.)
21:12:17 <zzo38> Knowing the widths because wide character are two bytes long is the best way!
21:12:32 <b_jonas> oren: and I think the widths are 0, 1, 2, but never 3. 0 is common.
21:12:33 <zzo38> The other ways are stupid
21:12:53 <oren> Exactly. The music program mocp has overruns and stuff because it assumes all unicode chars are halfwidth
21:13:31 <oren> or smoething... that's the behaviour I observe
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21:15:04 <pikhq> Sadly there's nothing very easily *googleable* about it, but I found the damned spec.
21:15:07 <pikhq> http://www.unicode.org/reports/tr11/tr11-28.html
21:16:17 <zzo38> If I write the terminal emulator probabily is not accept Unicode; you have to use VT100 set, PC set, or Japanese set
21:16:56 <zzo38> (Filters can be used if you want to convert from another character coding)
21:17:26 <pikhq> EN SPACE is apparently a narrow character, thus a width of 1. (half-width)
21:18:13 <pikhq> As is FIGURE SPACE and EM SPACE.
21:18:27 <zzo38> In typesetting though, the problems are different. For typesetting, encodings like UTF-8 are OK but all character properties and stuff should be stored in the font metric file, and what exactly a character even is also should depend on the font.
21:18:32 <pikhq> http://www.unicode.org/Public/UCD/latest/ucd/EastAsianWidth.txt And that's the DB to look in.
21:18:59 <zzo38> (And these font metrics probably ought to support 32-bit character codes rather than 21-bits)
21:19:05 <oren> that's kind of ridiculous given that a EM SPACE is, in proportional fonts, as wide as a CJK SPACE
21:19:25 <oren> Er, wrong character name. you know what I mean
21:19:45 <oren> they wanted a clean rule though
21:20:21 <pikhq> I'd be unsurprised if thhere was some legacy reason behind that.
21:21:04 <zzo38> What you can do for font metrics though, is if the file format of font metric support include files, you can have include files for versions of Unicode so that if the font is Unicode-based then you can import the character properties.
21:23:31 <oren> hell a TAB is apparently halfwidth!
21:24:34 <pikhq> The hell else would it be?
21:25:02 <oren> technically. it's not even really a character at all
21:25:09 <pikhq> A tab isn't 8 characters, it's cursor position = (cursor position + 1) % 8
21:25:21 <zzo38> Tab is control characters
21:25:37 <pikhq> It's also "whitespace" and "printable"
21:25:44 <oren> right. it's a command to the terminal, not a character for the terminal to display
21:26:25 <oren> and imo it doesn't even belong in non-plaintext files
21:28:25 <fizzie> "cursor position = (cursor position + 1) % 8" might be a people-understand-what-was-meant description, but it's certainly not literally correct.
21:28:44 <pikhq> It was intended as the former not the latter thankfully.
21:43:04 <zzo38> On a PC though if you do use 512 characters text mode then each block of 256 characters is only available in 8 colors; you might use the same colors for each block or different colors.
21:46:37 <b_jonas> zzo38: what? I assumed it just reporpuses the blink/highbackground bit for that, so you can still use 16 foreground colors, but I never really used it
21:48:23 <zzo38> b_jonas: No I think it is the foreground intensity bit; I seem to remember using it once and that is what it does
21:48:42 <zzo38> (I don't know why; using the blink bit might have been better)
21:50:00 <b_jonas> zzo38: ok. I have tried fonts higher than 16 pixels (up to 32 pixels is supported), plus 8 and 9 pixel wide modes (man, 9 pixel is a hack but it's so useful)
21:53:42 <b_jonas> in particular, the vga card is hard-coded to copy the 8th column to the 9th column for characters of code 0xc0 to 0xdf, which works almost perfectly for cp437, but not much for other charsets.
21:54:19 <b_jonas> and that cp437 was designed this way in first place is a lucky artifact from the monochrome display card, because the CGA card has an 8 wide character cell.
21:54:56 <zzo38> Didn't they design it that way due to MDPA?
21:55:19 <zzo38> Monochrome Display and Printer Adapter
21:55:38 <b_jonas> yes, monochrome adapter, that's what I said
21:55:45 <b_jonas> I don't know if the printer is relevant
21:56:17 <zzo38> Yes; they just put printer interface on the same card, perhaps to save costs I don't quite know why
21:56:29 <b_jonas> hmm, the printer has a 9 wide cell, you're right
21:56:36 <b_jonas> then maybe for the printer too
21:59:06 <b_jonas> zzo38: I guess because people using the PC for business would use the better monochrome adapter and the printer, whereas people using the pc for games would use the color adapter. that's why sound cards and joystick cards were combined later: gamers want both.
22:01:00 <b_jonas> that was a bit later, joy stick controller existed before sound cards because it's cheaper.
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22:03:28 <b_jonas> zzo38: or maybe they reused the font ROM for the printer and the card? ROM was clearly very expensive back then.
22:05:06 <b_jonas> but I don't think it's that, because I think the font was on the printer, not the card
22:05:59 <b_jonas> yep, controller sends characters or control sequences on the parallel port, just like with later printers. font's on the printer.
22:07:06 <b_jonas> and I think it can buffer a line and print it in the background while the cpu does more useful stuff.
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23:13:43 <oren> I don't even know what alphabet the mitosis sybol thingy is from
23:14:06 <HackEgo> U+A66E CYRILLIC LETTER MULTIOCULAR O \ UTF-8: ea 99 ae UTF-16BE: a66e Decimal: ꙮ \ ꙮ \ Category: Lo (Letter, Other) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right) \ \ U+0072 LATIN SMALL LETTER R \ UTF-8: 72 UTF-16BE: 0072 Decimal: r \ r (R) \ Uppercase: U+0052 \ Category: Ll (Letter, Lowercase) \ Bidi: L (Left-to-Right)
23:14:50 <oren> Oh it's one of those crazy letters from before cyrillic was standardized. Crazy russians
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23:15:16 <FireFly> I could've sworn we had a wisdom entry on the multiocular o
23:15:45 <HackEgo> 1138) <shachaf> A Swede who was in #esoteric / Thought his rhymes were a little generic. / "I might use, in my prose, / ꙮs, / But my poetry's alphanumeric."
23:16:28 <oren> holy shit hahahahaha
23:17:19 <oerjan> <scoofy> garbage in, garbage out <-- psst, that's what everyone was subverting hth
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23:18:05 <oerjan> oren: it's not really a "before cyrillic was standardized", it's even crazier than that
23:18:49 <oerjan> it's basically a cyrillic pun, used only in one spot in manuscript bibles
23:20:09 <oerjan> (there are other o's with fewer eyes used in other spots)
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23:22:15 <oerjan> also the word in that spot could be translated with "multiocular", so it's both a description of the letter and of what it's used for...
23:23:13 <oerjan> wikipedia has an extensive set of pages for these
23:27:07 <oerjan> <Taneb> Also it's graded <-- i assume you get A+ if your AI takes over the world
23:27:28 <Taneb> oerjan, not those names for grades!
23:27:43 <shachaf> oerjan: we already went over this hth
23:28:02 <oerjan> haven't you americanized your grade system yet
23:28:13 <shachaf> is that pronounced twee-twee
23:28:14 <Taneb> Why would we do that
23:28:28 <Taneb> shachaf, I'm not dutch
23:28:30 <oerjan> shachaf: went over what you're being ambiguous tdnh
23:28:44 <shachaf> oerjan: d-modules and the british grading system
23:29:29 <Taneb> oerjan, if we americanized the grade system I couldn't get a first in computability and complexity
23:29:58 <shachaf> oerjan: itym americanised hth
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23:31:32 <shachaf> i think you are right for once?
23:32:46 <oerjan> Taneb: actually what you should do is make an AI that takes over the world and changes the grade system, that would work.
23:33:07 <Taneb> But I only got a 2-2!
23:33:38 <Taneb> I'm not that good at AI
23:33:42 <shachaf> Taneb: don't worry, you can write an AI that takes over the world and changes your grade to A+ for any of your modules
23:33:45 <Taneb> Actually, it could get rounded up to a 2-1
23:33:47 <shachaf> doesn't have to be the AI module
23:33:51 <oerjan> well that's what you have to expect when your AI only takes over half of Swansea and a piece of Manx hth
23:33:54 <zzo38> Why can't you get a percentage for grading instead?
23:34:25 <Taneb> And 68% in principles of programming languages
23:35:31 <oerjan> shachaf: it seems Taneb isn't the AI type of evil overlord
23:35:50 <shachaf> Taneb is an evil overlord?
23:36:00 <ais523> oerjan: but "Manx" is an adjective
23:36:01 <Taneb> shachaf, have you seen my surname
23:36:08 <shachaf> are evil overlords a Tanebvention?
23:36:18 <Taneb> ais523, you misunderstand, I took over half of a manx cat
23:36:18 <ais523> that's like taking over a piece of Norwegian, it doesn't make sense grammatically
23:36:25 <oerjan> ais523: no wonder it didn't work, then
23:36:45 <oerjan> ais523: well you could take over the language, add an extra case or something
23:36:46 <shachaf> that's why Taneb got a 2-2
23:37:03 <shachaf> using adjectives instead of nouns
23:37:36 <shachaf> oerjan: how advanced does an ai have to be to figure out your acronyms
23:37:37 <Taneb> shachaf, the grade hasn't been confirmed yet, it could be rounded up to a 2-1!
23:38:23 <zzo38> Why don't they just write down the percentages instead of using stuff like 2-2 and so on?
23:38:40 <shachaf> zzo38: What do they do in BC?
23:38:50 <Taneb> zzo38, because it's in bands
23:39:22 <Taneb> The bands are, 40% to 50% is a third, 50% to 60% is a 2-2, 60% to 70% is a 2-1, 70% upwards is a first
23:39:27 <shachaf> 2-2 would be a good name for a band
23:39:39 <oerjan> shachaf: pretty advanced
23:39:42 <zzo38> Here in Canada they use the letters A, B, C but I think percentages would be better
23:40:12 <oerjan> don't mess with my 2-2
23:40:59 <shachaf> A, B, C are all only symmetrical on one axis
23:41:05 <shachaf> so i assume they're the same score
23:41:28 <Taneb> shachaf, but A is symmetrical on a different axis to B and C
23:41:45 <zzo38> In my opinion the only bands should be the pass/fail band
23:42:10 <ais523> zzo38: well, I passed my PhD thesis defence today
23:42:16 <zzo38> You write percentage; letter can be added for other stuff added on, such as pass/fail, "no mark" (0 out of 0), "standing granted", etc
23:42:39 <ais523> the only real bands there are conditional pass, and fail (although there are different grades of conditional pass depending on how onerous the conditions are)
23:42:42 <oerjan> @ask rdococ <rdococ> or should I try to avoid a naming conflict? <-- what naming conflict there's no language called Function hth
23:42:47 <ais523> the ideal condition you want is typo fixes
23:42:55 <shachaf> ais523: How big was your snake?
23:42:59 <ais523> what you don't want is a rewrite of the entire thesis to cover a bunch of new options
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23:44:53 <ais523> shachaf: a bunch of typo fixes, some adjustments to some of the wording, and more clarity as to what the structure is
23:44:57 <ais523> it isn't online yet, but the corrected version will be
23:45:08 <ais523> I'll link it to you lot when it is
23:45:39 <oerjan> i take it unconditional pass isn't something that happens, then?
23:45:50 <ais523> oerjan: that requires no typos anywhere
23:45:54 <ais523> I don't think anyone's that good at proofreading
23:45:59 <shachaf> Hmm, so it's in your best interest to leave a few typos in your thesis?
23:46:01 <ais523> it is theoretically possible but I'm not sure it's ever happened
23:46:06 <shachaf> Otherwise your condition will have to be more serious.
23:46:30 <oren> I hate the way a B+ is 73 and a A- is 77 but to get an A+ you have to get 90
23:46:50 <ais523> oren: the UK exam system might be worse
23:47:09 <ais523> you get an A at 80, a B at 70, a C at 60, etc.; however, the actual marks are adjusted so that the grade boundaries all end up where they "should" be
23:47:10 <zzo38> oren: In my area there is no + and - for A and B though
23:47:22 <ais523> leading to weird anomalies such as getting 100% despite not answering all the questions (I've managed that before now)
23:47:48 <shachaf> I thought the UK system used 2-2?
23:48:13 <shachaf> i'm going to trust dr. not my real name here
23:48:22 <ais523> shachaf: different exam
23:48:42 <Taneb> shachaf, the 2-2 stuff is at uni, the As etc are in high school (GCSEs and A-levels)
23:48:43 <ais523> A levels are A/B/C/D/E/N/U on the scale given there
23:48:59 <ais523> university is 1, 2-1, 2-2, 3, Pass, Fail
23:49:14 <shachaf> is the A in "A level" related to the other A
23:49:23 <zzo38> ("Standing granted" is you passed regardless of your actual mark; in my math class one year I would then have SG(NM) if my format is used; they did not assign a mark because many of my assignments were late or incomplete even though I did a good job otherwise and passed all test and stuff very good, and the teacher know I am good at it too)
23:49:24 <ais523> nope, it originally stood for Advanced
23:49:27 <ais523> I'm not sure if it still does
23:49:56 <ais523> (this was originally to contrast with O for Ordinary, but O-levels no longer exist; the GCSE is the closest modern equivalent)
23:50:00 <Taneb> ais523, A-levels now have an A* grade above A
23:50:03 <ais523> we also have three SAT exams when we're younger
23:50:12 <ais523> Taneb: I remembered that but only after I made the comment
23:50:18 <ais523> grade inflation sucks :-(
23:50:24 <oren> ais523: wait so OWL's are real?!!?
23:50:26 <Taneb> Also I am not sure how many of the SATs still exist
23:50:30 <oren> - the wizarding
23:50:39 <zzo38> The grade system is a bit stupid
23:50:43 <Taneb> I don't think I did year 9 SATs
23:50:58 <ais523> the funny thing is, they happen at around ages 7, 10, 13, but they're all marked on the same scale from 1 to 9
23:51:14 <ais523> just you aren't intended to get 9s at age 7, I think a 4 is a good grade back then
23:51:32 <zzo38> I want to do such as P(100%) is the perfect score (although, due to bonus question and other things it might be possible to get slightly higher than 100%), and then F(0%) is the lowest score.
23:51:39 <ais523> (also you have to declare a target grade and you can only get that grade, one grade higher or lower, or fail outright)
23:51:40 <oren> Ah. that makes more sense to me
23:51:43 <Taneb> ais523, 4 is an exceptional grade at age 7
23:51:52 <ais523> Taneb: was trying to pick the top end of what was reasonable
23:52:06 <ais523> 4 is believable, 5 isn't really
23:52:23 <shachaf> Is it always the same test?
23:53:01 <ais523> same difficulty for each target grade, although ofc they have to change the details year on year to stop people just regurgitating model answers
23:53:29 <shachaf> If someone got a 9 on the age-13 test could they get a 9 on the age-7 test?
23:53:38 <Taneb> (I mean, I think they have different tests at different levels)
23:53:45 <Taneb> (It's been a while since I did a SAT)
23:53:49 <ais523> yes, but no sane school would let an age-7 pupil target a grade of 8
23:53:58 <ais523> because they'd be risking a fail, and that looks really embarassing on the stats
23:54:26 <shachaf> How do you target a grade?
23:54:40 <shachaf> You're just supposed to leave some questions blank instead of trying to answer them and failing?
23:55:04 <ais523> the school says "well we're targeting 80 3s and 70 2s" and gets the appropriate exam papers for that
23:55:58 <shachaf> So you have to choose in advance what your maximum score will be?
23:56:21 <ais523> that's actually one of my least favourite things about UK exams
23:56:49 <ais523> (this is actually true even at GCSE; at A level, you can't really do that because you pick your A level subjects and if you can't at least aim at an A in any of them, you should probably just go get a job)
23:57:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43105&oldid=43104 * SuperJedi224 * (+111)
00:02:56 <shachaf> Taneb: you're twice as famous as i am in the hcar
00:03:14 <Taneb> shachaf, my goal for November is to be mentioned 5 times
00:03:23 <Taneb> shachaf, also one of my friends got in HWN this week
00:07:12 <Taneb> For his Book database, I think
00:10:18 <Taneb> See, not only am I famous, I have connections to other famous people!
00:21:21 * Taneb now has some chocolate :)
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02:55:51 <rdococ> how do I send messages via lambdabot?
02:58:36 <lambdabot> tell <nick> <message>. When <nick> shows activity, tell them <message>.
03:00:20 <rdococ> could I have just used the chat...???
03:04:21 <oerjan> these things always get out of hand
03:05:08 <rdococ> the way you shouted 'POSSIBLE' in all caps
03:05:24 <rdococ> it makes me feel like it would be a POSSIBLE future programming language...
03:06:52 * oerjan is now made of up to 80% self-produced memes.
03:07:02 <oerjan> or possibly self-stolen
03:09:02 <rdococ> probably wont use POSSIBLE
03:09:33 <zzo38> Can you help me to fix my level20.trope so that it is less straight if it is supposed to be less straight, or more straight if it is supposed to be more straight, or whatever else is wrong with it?
03:10:05 <rdococ> anyway, trying to get new ideas for a new language... function doesnt seem to be going well so I might scrap it...
03:10:15 <rdococ> all I really need is the name
03:10:52 * oren was briefly confused as to the meaning of 'straight'
03:11:21 * rdococ is still, more thoroughly, confused as to the meaning of a 'trope' file
03:12:18 <oerjan> i _think_ zzo38 is referring to the straight/subverted/etc. distinction used on trope sites.
03:12:50 <zzo38> That is what I am refering to.
03:13:36 <tswett> Have I already mentioned that my favorite esolangs are the ones that are built on one specific idea?
03:14:02 <zzo38> I don't know, but at least now you have done so.
03:15:20 <rdococ> ...wait... did I just dero?
03:16:02 <oerjan> The two steps of esolang construction: (1) Find one specific idea to base it around (2) Fill in the rest with _anything_other_than_brainfuck_
03:16:25 <zzo38> If you have the other stuff then yes it help
03:16:39 <tswett> I'm not sure if I've ever successfully come up with an esolang idea by specifically trying to do so.
03:17:18 <tswett> Lemme try to remember those esolangs I've come up with that I actually like.
03:17:25 <rdococ> umm... oerjan, you do know I try that all the time?
03:18:37 <oerjan> rdococ: this is general advice hth
03:18:59 <tswett> //, Al Dente, Proce. There have gotta be some more.
03:22:25 <tswett> I've rewritten the spec for Proce at least once. I'm still not sure about it.
03:23:38 <zzo38> This is what I was refering to http://zzo38computer.org/dnd/recording/level20.trope and this in turn refers to a wiki page, which can be corrected to match if needed too; I intend to update both with whatever tropes are applicable.
03:23:56 <tswett> I want to make sure that it's not possible to "cheat" in Proce by taking advantage of the fact that it's implemented as a series of time steps rather than a set of continuously changing analog signals.
03:25:09 <zzo38> Specify that the program can be worked with analog signals too
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03:29:23 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Combienti%C3%A8m
03:29:31 <tswett> I like that one. It looks really confusing.
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03:31:35 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Markont - oh god what the heck.
03:33:20 * oerjan vaguely recalls discussing Markont at some point
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03:37:27 <Lyka> so "Octopus 0003c LCD-Keypad-SD", whose commands match the newest incarnation of the Fourfuck language, has, like many previous versions of it, a double-sided reference sheet. Said reference sheet is in Courier New 6.5 and is full of text.
03:37:32 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Markont]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43106&oldid=36034 * Tanner Swett * (+27) Fixes
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03:41:05 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Slide - ah, I love this.
03:41:50 <Sgeo> As ddrescue is copying this drive, I think it's failing more and more
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03:42:11 <Lyka> be glad that you are maing a copy
03:42:54 <Sgeo> Yes, but what of the data already lost?
03:43:01 <Sgeo> Also, could positioning of the drive be relevent/
03:43:10 <Sgeo> It's sitting outside any container on a piece of plastic
03:43:43 <Sgeo> Should I try repositioning it before a retry?
03:44:21 <Sgeo> I guess I should see how well the trimming thingy works
03:46:02 <tswett> http://esolangs.org/wiki/Minimum - pffheh.
03:48:25 <Lyka> if i add one more feature to the program, i will need a three-sided sheet of paper
03:49:06 <Sgeo> tswett, do you have Grandroids access? What do you think about Grandroids chemistry?
03:49:24 <tswett> I'm not familiar with Grandroids.
03:51:10 <Sgeo> Chemicals are strings made up of A, B, C, D, X, O. X and O can be operators, only the leftmost operator is relevent. O means the chemical is an enzyme, such that, say, AOB will combine A and B to make AB. X is for lysers, so AXB breaks apart AB into A and B
03:51:19 <Sgeo> AXXB breaks apart AXB into A and XB
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03:52:55 <Sgeo> I suggested an S to serve as an escape, like "the next character is not the operator", but it probably overcomplicates it and not being able to do certain things adds some flavor, although he said he'd look at it again if needed
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03:54:02 <tswett> One idea is to have multiple "strengths" of operators, and the relevant operator is the "strongest" one.
03:55:19 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Snack]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43107&oldid=23252 * Zzo38 * (+364)
03:57:35 <zzo38> People in NESdev wiki argue about whether or not RFC2119 should be used.
04:03:31 <pikhq> RFC2119 SHOULD be used; if you opt to not use it, you MUST NOT use its keywords for different purposes.
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04:28:22 <tswett> Doing so is the class-4 crime of Competing Standards.
04:30:13 <function> pikhq: how SHOULD one interpret those terms if has chosen that they MUST NOT use RFC2119
04:38:11 <zzo38> By not writing all uppercase if it isn't RFC2119
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05:05:03 <pikhq> "SHOULD" and such have quite precise meanings, while "should" and such merely have the common natural language meaning.
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05:07:49 <Elronnd|deminewt> If I come up with the concept for a joke programming language, am I allowed to put it on the wiki before I actually write the implementation?
05:08:18 <zzo38> You could, yes, there are many unimplemented stuff on wiki already
05:08:32 <zzo38> But you can also post it without adding into list until implementation is written if you prefer that way
05:09:10 <Elronnd|deminewt> Is it unfair if the implementation requires every implementation of every non-joke language to be installed on the user's box?
05:09:48 <zzo38> If it a joke language, it doesn't matter if it is unfair
05:10:28 <Elronnd|deminewt> I suppose a better question would be, where can I get a comprehensive list of all implementations of all non-joke languages
05:10:46 <zzo38> Not all of them are implemented yet sorry
05:12:47 <Lyka> Fourfuck needs to be removed from the wiki. It's become too spcialized
05:15:00 <Lyka> and won't work on anything other than an Arduino Uno + SD Reader + LCD1602 Keypad
05:15:16 <zzo38> Doesn't matter I think?
05:15:21 <Lyka> you haven't seen the current source code
05:15:25 * Sgeo once considered making an esolang based on Activr Worlds scripting
05:15:43 <Sgeo> Languages don't have to be defined based on the implementation
05:15:44 <Lyka> and i can always put it back
05:15:56 <Sgeo> *Active Worlds
05:16:05 <Lyka> if it ever becomes ready
05:18:30 <Lyka> [00=SIB0SOB0]00=Q000
05:19:31 * Elronnd|deminewt 's joke language is called "CompLANG", and will exit unless every implementation of every (non-joke) language parses the code with *no* warnings, will exit with an error
05:20:33 <Lyka> Elronnd|deminewt: i just typed a fourfuck line
05:21:19 <Lyka> well, an octopus line, fourfuc being the nme octopus seems to be called here
05:24:08 <Lyka> my personal name for it is octopus (personal joke), the esoteric name is fourfuck
05:35:32 <oren> definitely doesn't matter. some of the languages can't be implemented on any real computer, even in principle
05:36:45 <oren> (i think there was one explicitly requiring a halting problem orcale?)
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06:14:30 <Jafet> As they say, the joke is all in the telling.
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08:04:16 <ais523> idea: an esolang that is a derivative of itself
08:06:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43108&oldid=43062 * Ais523 * (+162) /* Derivative Ideas */ +1
08:06:38 <Taneb> ais523, like INTERCAL?
08:06:40 <ais523> actually, that's just Feather isn't it?
08:06:56 <ais523> Taneb: INTERCAL isn't a derivative of itself, it's a parody of other languages that existed in the early 1970s
08:09:24 <Taneb> I was thinking I call C-INTERCAL, CLC-INTERCAL, etc all INTERCAL
08:09:31 <Taneb> Whereas they are derivatives of eachother
08:09:47 <ais523> that counts, I think (although INTERCAL-72 isn't a derivative of any of them)
08:10:00 <ais523> I think you can describe newer versions of C-INTERCAL and CLC-INTERCAL as being derivatives of older versions of each other
08:10:07 <ais523> but there's no actual infinite regress there
08:10:11 <Taneb> But thinking about it I don't think it counts
08:10:45 <Taneb> (it's like calling sin x * cos x or something and going from there)
08:11:23 * ais523 is suddenly reminded of the double mockingbird, again
08:11:53 <ais523> about the best you can manage with a traditional type inference algorithm is to determine that its return value has the same type as itself
08:12:37 <Taneb> Anything you can do with a magic type inference algorithm?
08:12:56 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[List of ideas]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43109&oldid=43108 * Ais523 * (+92) /* General Ideas */ mention Snowflake
08:13:06 <ais523> Taneb: you can determine that it doesn't halt
08:13:23 <ais523> and therefore its return type is irrelevant
08:13:35 <ais523> (note: you don't need halting problem levels of magic to determine that /that specific term/ doesnt halt)
08:13:50 <zzo38> f(x)=e^x is the derivative of itself
08:14:18 <ais523> now I'm wondering if it's possible to define e^x like that
08:14:28 <ais523> is that the only function that's a derivative of itself?
08:14:31 <zzo38> I too was wondering about thing like that
08:14:43 <zzo38> Although f(x)=0 is also a derivative of itself
08:15:16 <ais523> ugh yes, for some reason I thought it differentiated to1
08:15:50 <Taneb> lim(h->0) (f(x+h) - f(x))/ h = f(x)
08:16:22 <Taneb> I don't think there is much we can conclude from that
08:17:11 <Taneb> But I am not good at this kind of thing
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08:17:44 <Taneb> I think we can define e to be the constant such that d/dx e^x = e^x
08:18:19 <zzo38> I have also seen it written as d(e^x) = e^x dx
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08:19:48 <zzo38> Although the first time I figured out that it is the derivative of itself, it is I figured it out by myself, because, I was in the school there is a separate "math class" and "calculus class"; I learned derivatives in the calculus class and while spare time in the math class I was looking through the textbook and found the series of e^x as well as sin x and cos x. Therefore I figured it out before the teacher told me later that year. (And also how e
08:20:48 <Taneb> zzo38, you were cut of after "(And also how e"
08:21:02 <zzo38> how e^(ix) is works!)
08:21:50 <ais523> doesn't that differentiate to ie^(ix)?
08:22:10 <ais523> although I just realised I probably missed the point
08:22:21 <zzo38> I meant how it is related to sin and cos functions
08:26:07 <Taneb> I can't seem to get Cairo's example program to compile...
08:26:15 <Taneb> ld is saying that none of cairo's names exist
08:27:06 <ais523> Taneb: missing a library dependency?
08:27:41 <Taneb> ais523, pkg-config finds Cairo
08:27:54 <zzo38> They did actually ask the question, what is the number k such as that: e^(kx) = cos(x) + k sin(x)
08:28:05 <ais523> Taneb: does it tell ld about it though?
08:28:12 <Taneb> ais523, I don't know
08:28:17 <Taneb> How do I check that?
08:28:35 <zzo38> I was able to answer the question (although it was not assigned); the answer was also given in the back of the book but it simply said square root of -1 but without any further explanation. Imaginary numbers aren't mentioned anywhere else in this book.
08:28:38 <ais523> well, are you doing anything to a) tell ld you want to link Cairo, or b) tell gcc to tell ld to link Cairo?
08:29:34 <Taneb> I am not very good at C, I was trying to follow Cairo's instructions, but I do not think I am
08:30:05 <zzo38> Then, learn to be good at C
08:30:05 <ais523> I'm personally not really a fan of pkg-config
08:31:09 <ais523> Taneb: however, the documentation implies that you'll need to place the output of "pkg-config --libs cairo" onto the command line that you use as part of the link (if you're building all at once, this will be the same command line as the compile)
08:31:24 <ais523> the output is, completely unsurprisingly, -lcairo which is how a normal package would do things
08:31:54 <Taneb> For me it is "-I/usr/include/cairo -I/usr/include/glib-2.0 -I/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/glib-2.0/include -I/usr/include/pixman-1 -I/usr/include/freetype2 -I/usr/include/libpng12 -lcairo"
08:32:23 <ais523> Taneb: --libs will give you just the -lcairo bit, I think
08:32:32 <ais523> I can understand why it uses pkg-config for the includes, though
08:32:47 <ais523> anyway, if you're giving -lcairo and it isn't working
08:32:53 <ais523> you're most likely missing the dev symlink for cairo
08:33:00 <ais523> on Ubuntu it'd be in a package called libcairo-dev
08:33:07 <ais523> along with the header files
08:33:20 <ais523> not sure which system you're on or what protocols it uses for this
08:34:28 <Taneb> "libcairo2-dev is already at the newest version"
08:35:08 <zzo38> What are you trying to make?
08:35:09 <ais523> try again specifying -lcairo manually just in case something stupid is going on
08:36:03 <Taneb> nathan@Nami:~$ cc -o c -lcairo C.c
08:36:03 <Taneb> C.c:1:19: fatal error: cairo.h: No such file or directory
08:36:03 <Taneb> #include <cairo.h>
08:36:03 <Taneb> compilation terminated.
08:36:26 <zzo38> Oops now make sure it is in the include path
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08:36:37 <zzo38> Or put in the directory of include path by yourself
08:37:27 <Taneb> Then I get the old error again
08:37:42 <Taneb> (with lots of undefined reference to ...)
08:38:15 <zzo38> I don't know how to work Cairo
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08:40:25 <Taneb> Me neither, evidently
09:21:58 <zzo38> I made up the way to convert JSON into RDF in case it is useful sometimes; it is possible also converting back other way.
09:22:05 <zzo38> For example: @prefix : <data:text/plain,>. [ :firstName "John"; :lastName "Smith"; :isAlive true; :age 25; :address [ :streetAddress "21 2nd Street"; :city "New York"; :state "NY"; :postalCode "10021-3100" ]; :phoneNumbers ([ :type "home"; :number "212 555-1234" ] [ :type "office"; :number "646 555-4567" ]); :children (); :spouse <xurn:null> ] <gopher://zzo38computer.org/1ns/meta:primary> ().
09:22:15 <zzo38> (This example is from the JSON example in Wikipedia)
09:22:44 <zzo38> Do you expect this is working OK?
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09:37:14 <mroman_> "joke language" is overused too much.
09:37:39 <zzo38> Maybe...or, maybe only a little bit too much
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10:38:49 <Jafet> "esoteric language"
10:41:36 <Jafet> @ask ais523 <ais523> an esolang that is a derivative of itself ; does ASCII Art- count?
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10:43:41 <Jafet> (Well, it's actually a derivative of a derivative of itself.)
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11:10:08 <Taneb> Help I am writing horrible C again
11:10:13 <Taneb> Is http://sprunge.us/DHOD portable?
11:11:27 <fungot> Jafet: supertux use it for screen? ( and which then generates scheme code) on how monads naturally arise as abstraction devices. anyone interested in coding computer games.
11:15:43 <Jafet> That looks legal. Clearly you need to obfuscate it more
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14:04:09 <oerjan> @tell ais523 <ais523> is that the only function that's a derivative of itself? <-- f(x) = C*e^x are the only ones
14:06:05 <oerjan> @tell ais523 so if you add f(0)=1 it's unique
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14:09:58 * oerjan tries to remember the "simple" proof
14:10:52 <oerjan> if f(x) = g(x)e^x, then (g(x)e^x)' = g'(x)e^x + g(x)e^x, so g'(x) = 0 and g is a constant.
14:11:14 <oerjan> @tell ais523 if f(x) = g(x)e^x, then (g(x)e^x)' = g'(x)e^x + g(x)e^x, so g'(x) = 0 and g is a constant.
14:11:53 <oerjan> @tell ais523 *+function
14:12:52 <oerjan> that's a pretty neat proof, really
14:16:38 <oerjan> iirc you can do similarly to find the solution for f''(x) = f(x) etc. (which includes e.g. sin and cos)
14:16:53 <oerjan> this vaguely remembered from differential equation class
14:17:40 <oerjan> although there's also a more powerful theorem you can use
14:18:07 <Taneb> Yeah, I sort of half remember something
14:18:26 <coppro> wait how does that actually prove that this is the only case where f(x) = f'(x)?
14:18:46 <oerjan> coppro: note that (g(x)e^x)' = g(x)e^x by assumption
14:21:41 <coppro> oh my god I just realized that the thieves' guild in discworld is a metaphor for government
14:23:48 <coppro> http://lmgtfy.com/?q=slowpoke.jpg
14:26:16 <oerjan> zzo38: ^ you might be interested to
14:29:05 <coppro> oerjan: what is the general solution to f(x) = f''(x)? f(x) = c_1e^{d x} + c_2e^{-d x} for |d| = 1?
14:31:35 <oerjan> more generally, for n differentiations, d is an nth root of unity.
14:31:53 <coppro> oh wait, no it doesn't
14:32:42 <oerjan> for 2, you can make a base change to use sin and cos instead
14:33:07 <oerjan> in all cases the solution set is a vector space of n dimensions
14:34:16 <oerjan> the second step negates
14:35:24 <oerjan> oh it's f''(x) = -f(x) which gets sin and cos, for f''''(x) = f(x) you still keep e^x and e^(-x) as well
14:35:25 <coppro> that's the misatke I made
14:35:40 <coppro> because +- i is a 4th root
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14:45:04 <Taneb> Hmm, I can get cairo programs to compile on my desktop (running Debian) but not my laptop (running Ubuntu0
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16:25:12 <oren> Does ?: create a sequence point?
16:29:27 <oren> I had an idea for an esoteric spreadsheet. The cells would be numbered by a mapping between N and Q+
16:29:43 <oren> e.g. that snakey path thing
16:31:20 <oren> Hmm I guess it has to be a bijection, not just a 'mapping'
16:33:15 <oren> Now, the fun part is, given you are at cell n, how to get the cell below, left, right or up?
16:35:33 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantor_pairing_function hth
16:37:51 <oren> so then, given cantors f, can we define a function g(z) such that if [x,y] = f(z) then [x+1,y] = f(g(z))
16:38:17 <oren> and what is the simplest expression of said function?
16:40:58 <oren> er, I suppose f above is the inverse.
16:41:12 <oren> so it should be f^-1
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16:49:06 <oren> hmm... z' = z + x + y + 1
16:50:40 <oerjan> afaik the tricky part is that you need an integer square root to find out which diagonal you're on
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16:52:38 <oerjan> so it's not going to be a very pretty formula
16:53:13 <oren> z' = z + floor((sqrt(8*z+1)-1)/2) + 1
16:53:38 <oren> yeah, not pretty at all
16:54:33 <oren> that's for z' s.t. y' = y and x' = x + 1
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16:59:10 <oren> prettier: z' = z + ⌊(√8̅*̅z̅+̅1̅-1)/2⌋ + 1
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17:01:44 <oren> and of course, to get z' for y+1 instead of x+1 you add one to the previous
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17:09:52 <oren> But this enables to represent a 2d array of data without reference to its dimensions... that might actually be useful
17:10:15 <oren> (for a given value of 'useful')
17:19:10 <oren> well, the performance for sequential access is pretty abysmal
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17:26:05 <lambdabot> CYUL 301700Z 22022G28KT 30SM FEW040CB FEW110 BKN240 29/19 A2987 RMK CB2AC1CI5 AC TR SLP114 DENSITY ALT 1800FT
17:28:08 <lambdabot> KOAK 301653Z 26006KT 10SM OVC006 12/10 A2999 RMK AO2 SLP155 T01220100
17:28:37 <lambdabot> LLBG 301720Z 32005KT CAVOK 22/14 Q1014 NOSIG
17:29:06 <lambdabot> oerjan asked 1d 15h 31m 36s ago: So, why did you study in hell, then?
17:29:26 <boily> @ask oerjan study?
17:30:34 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43110&oldid=43105 * 72.74.32.143 * (+51)
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18:43:30 <oren> 2 byte time of day: rounded value of (hour*3600+minute*60+second)*65536/86400
18:44:47 <fizzie> oren: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal_time
18:45:43 <oren> everything old is new again
18:46:03 <oren> apparently Tang Dynsty old, wow
18:47:01 <MDude> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hexadecimal#Verbal_and_digital_representations
18:50:13 <MDude> So they also used hexadecimal for a bunch of other things, which is neat.
18:54:30 <oren> it is approximately d1ea now
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18:59:16 <oren> hmm a hex second is 1.318359375 regular seconds...
18:59:56 <oren> the sixteens digit changes every 20 seconds.
19:01:40 <scoofy> what is hex time useful for?
19:01:51 <oren> to fit in only 2 vytes
19:03:29 <oren> the twofitysixes digit changes every 337 seconds or 5.6 minutes. the fortininysixes digit changes exactly every 1.5 hours
19:07:45 <oren> I wonder what the average and maximum conversion error is
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19:25:57 <oren> the avergae error in conversion to hex time and back is 1/4 of a second
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19:37:58 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Microscript]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43111&oldid=43110 * SuperJedi224 * (+31)
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20:16:07 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Treehugger]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43112&oldid=41558 * SuperJedi224 * (+54)
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20:34:00 <zzo38> LADSPA is a bit too simple and LV2 is a bit too complicated and both have a few other problems (although LADSPA does seem pretty reasonable for many stuff); if I make up my own based on something in between LADSPA and LV2 and Csound then what is it called?
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20:38:34 <zzo38> Ah, it is a bit long (but maybe it is OK, or can be shortened somehow)
20:38:51 <zzo38> I would drop "V2" at least.
20:43:30 <zzo38> Like LV2 we have plugins identified by URIs, and compatible plugins by the same URI (but, even plugins compatible with other systems can be identified: The same as the LV2 URI for LV2, "xurn:ladspa:" for LADSPA, "xurn:vst:" for VST, "urn:uuid:" for DirectX, and "xurn:rdn:" for AU).
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21:21:01 <zzo38> Let's try some other kind of name.....
21:21:32 <nys> does anybody here understand game semantics?
21:23:08 <zzo38> "Simple Extensible Audio Plugin System"? "Open Extensible Audio Plugin System"? I don't quite know?
21:23:40 <nys> i think i can sort of wrap my head around the interpretation in logic in terms of like, there is a winning strategy for a person defending a proposition or attacking the proposition
21:24:02 <nys> but i wonder if it gets significantly more involved when it comes to modelling something like PCF
21:24:32 <zzo38> I know a few things but hardly much
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21:28:18 <zzo38> I had a different idea though of game using sequent calculus: The initial state is any sequent. The first player selects a rule with the current state below the line, filling in parameters as necessary. The second player selects a sequent above the line to move to. A player who runs out of legal moves loses.
21:34:49 <zzo38> (Draws are broken in favor of the second player when it is necessary to break draws.)
21:46:40 <oren> So is MongoDB going to put relational databases out of business?
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21:57:15 <zzo38> I don't know, at least, I still like to use SQLite
22:06:04 <oren> "...However, because internally sort() uses the C++ strcmp api..." O_o "the C++ strcmp api" (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
22:06:40 <oren> it's not a C++ api, it is a C function!\
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22:07:31 <oren> yes, I'mma use the C++ qsort api to sort things too!
22:08:51 <oren> source: http://docs.mongodb.org/manual/reference/bson-types/#string
22:08:53 <Jafet> Just because you don't use C++ strcmp to program applications doesn't mean that no one else does.
22:11:24 <oren> I thing normally API implies something more than a C function... like maybe i might refer to "the C string.h API" but even that is pushin it
22:14:31 <zzo38> I have seen a chess problem where it is mate in 2, but it is not possible to mate in 1 from the position which results after both players make their first move in the first problem; it is again mate in 2. And then after both players make the first move in this second problem, the resulting position is again mate in 2.
22:15:50 <Jafet> That doesn't sound like a mate-in-2 then
22:16:48 <zzo38> By the next position I mean only the pieces on the board though, as is normal in chess problems.
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22:32:01 <lambdabot> ENVA 302220Z 09010KT 9999 -SHRA FEW025 SCT039 BKN051 09/04 Q1002 RMK WIND 670FT 10013KT
22:32:14 <oerjan> 20 degrees difference from boily
22:32:26 <oerjan> i think i prefer 9 to 29
22:34:12 <oerjan> @tell boily We already established Laval was there hth
22:36:47 <oerjan> fizzie: HackEgo is doing that thing again
22:37:15 <oerjan> @tell fizzie HackEgo is doing that thing again
22:37:58 <oerjan> Gregor: that's for you too, in principle
22:41:14 <shachaf> oerjan: how do you feel about 39 twh
22:41:44 <oerjan> how can i feel anything if i'm dead from heat tdnh
22:46:14 <shachaf> 40 degrees is totally survivable hth
22:46:39 <oerjan> oh i see you must be using fahrenheit
22:47:45 <shachaf> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eilat#Climate
22:47:58 <shachaf> in fact it's my father's idea of a good time hth
22:48:28 <oerjan> MDude: this is, in fact, not the #sleeping channel
22:53:11 <oerjan> <zzo38> (Draws are broken in favor of the second player when it is necessary to break draws.) <-- now i wonder if there are logics that are asymmetric like that
22:53:54 <oerjan> _one_ side can use law of excluded middle, but not the other...
22:54:17 <MDude> But then how do you decide whice player goes second?
22:54:38 <oerjan> MDude: um i assume you'd get two logics complementing each other, really
22:57:18 <oerjan> shachaf: wait he's actually there? i was trying to resist temptation for a negev joke
22:58:09 <oerjan> (norway isn't known for its deserts, really)
23:24:09 <zzo38> Do you know how would write .XM playing software?
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23:25:52 <nys> read the .xm specification. write a player.
23:26:18 <nys> .xm seems not as nice a format as .it
23:27:20 <zzo38> I do have .xm specification, the specification isn't very good to tell you playing much though
23:27:51 <zzo38> Also, .XM is the format that AmigaMML writes, and one advantage of .XM is that it can more easily be piped between programs than .IT format can be
23:33:22 <zzo38> I did however use the specification to make up a program to write .XM files, but I had to fix and add few things that were wrong/missing
23:48:45 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Brainfuck implementations]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43113&oldid=41855 * 155.133.12.236 * (+109) /* Normal implementations */
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00:22:16 <Lyka> So, now that Octopus's language is sufficiently complete that the device has 28K of flash used (32 max) and ~300 bytes of RAM that is not a global variable remaining...(2K max RAM)
00:22:23 <Lyka> i guess i'll have to find a way to actually load a program
00:23:13 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43114&oldid=43040 * Esowiki201529A * (+68) /* Capuirequiem programs Quine */ new section
00:23:25 <Lyka> or keep doing what i have been doing, reading the program directly from sd card
00:24:22 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:Underload]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43115&oldid=43114 * Esowiki201529A * (+3) /* Capuirequiem programs Quine */
00:24:39 <Lyka> but no more room for new features
00:26:41 <Lyka> Octopus is pretty much the Fourfuck interpreter for the arduino setup i have
00:32:46 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CLEB]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43116 * 64.180.168.27 * (+1157) A brainfuck extension, essentially.
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00:53:10 <oren> "ere the dingo men get hungry" that's a new one
01:12:53 <MDude> {} being used as a substitute for [] for no reason?
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01:34:49 <zzo38> In this Pokemon Pinball I managed to earn 6 extra balls (approximately)
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02:07:10 <oren> MDude: in what?
02:07:51 <MDude> Since [] is what's usually used for loops in brainfuck, right?
02:09:02 <oren> {} is apparently if, not while
02:12:42 <MDude> Well then I think I have the commands I need to make the specs for "Brainfuck sans Brainfuck".
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03:05:44 * Lyka works on Manta, an alternate interpreter, before preparing a document. He wants to make sure that the language is not based too much around a single implementation.
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04:20:36 <Sgeo> I miss X-Setup
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06:12:03 <Lyka> removed a bunch of redundant shortcut commands from Octopus dealing with serial communication on a device that crrently uses 5 buttons connected to a single multiplexer and a 16x2 text lcd as its primary means of user interaction
06:12:09 <Lyka> in simpler terms, i saw a bunch of lines of code and went all "WTF?!" on sight of them.
06:15:16 <Lyka> contray to the label, nasacort does *not* last 24 hours...
06:15:41 * Lyka coughs up all over the channel
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06:36:59 <Lyka> A000A100A20AA330[02<+031MSOB1P20_+00]02<
06:38:21 <Lyka> crap...multipl typos in that code
06:40:33 <Lyka> A000A100A20AA330[02<+031SOB1P20_M+00]02<
06:40:57 <Lyka> can you decode that?
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08:27:29 <mroman_> Taneb: Does C guarantee that char**argv is writeable?
08:28:16 <myname> CLEB is pretty useless
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08:35:54 <b_jonas> hehe, when people mention crazy two and three letter acronyms on irc, sometimes I get confused and have to check which channel it is to guess the meaning
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08:59:48 <mroman_> That looks like a crazy acronym of some sort.
09:08:03 <nortti> `learn IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays
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09:19:33 <mroman_> Mechanical relays hopefully
09:24:13 <mroman_> International Roulette Chat
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09:36:00 <fizzie> (Finnish has a word for the counterpart of afternoon.)
09:37:04 <b_jonas> that's called "morning" in English because they get up late
09:37:48 <b_jonas> a separate word for morning and pre-noon is needed by hard-working farmers only who get up at dawn to feed the household animals before they harvest on the Sun all day
09:38:02 <b_jonas> lazy noblemen have no need for such a word for hunting and partying
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09:51:01 <mroman_> dawn -> morning -> noon -> afternoon -> dusk -> evening -> night -> midnight
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09:52:24 <int-e> -> night -> dawn, cycle
09:52:35 <rdococ> 6am 7am 8am 9am 10am 11am 12am 1pm 2pm 3pm 4pm 5pm 6pm 7pm 8pm 9pm 10pm 11pm 12am 1am 2am 3am 4am 5am
09:53:28 <mroman_> surely one of those should've been 12pm
09:54:27 <mroman_> 12pm doesn't make sense for 12:00
09:55:09 <mroman_> it's not 12 hours past noon
09:55:55 <rdococ> this is why I prefer to format time differently.
09:56:05 <mroman_> I'm only gonna use pn and pm from now on.
09:56:27 <mroman_> Makes the most sense to me
09:56:30 <rdococ> how do you explain am then? "after midnight"?
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09:57:19 <rdococ> this is why I would prefer an epoch of 6am (or 6pm in your derps), so 0 would be dawn
09:57:19 <mroman_> only archaic rednecks still use that
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09:58:06 <rdococ> shu, metashu, 'patashu
09:58:21 <mroman_> ORDER! ORDER! Or I'll have to fine you and evacuate this channel.
09:58:41 <rdococ> this is not a courtroom and you are not a judge
09:58:53 <rdococ> and I am not a lawyer either
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10:09:37 <rdococ> was that some kind of joke I missed or is that your real nickname?
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10:20:34 <int-e> apparently nobody knows what 12am is. http://www.npl.co.uk/reference/faqs/is-midnight-12-am-or-12-pm-faq-time
10:25:09 <rdococ> It is often said that 12 a.m. Monday is midnight on Monday morning and 12 p.m. is midday.
10:25:33 <rdococ> I would prefer it if we counted hours after dawn and after dusk...
10:26:13 <rdococ> like 0s (for Sun) would be 6am, 6s midday, 0m dusk (for Moon), 6m for midnight...
10:26:33 <rdococ> Or just count hours after dawn. "It's half past 5s."
10:27:32 <rdococ> and then 12 hours later... "*Yawn* half past 17s already?! gotta go to bed..."
10:28:45 <rdococ> also a 24 hour clock, 0s would be to the right, 6s down (or up if you're in the southern hemisphere), 12s to the left, and 18s opposite 6s.
10:29:24 <int-e> why would 0s be on the right...
10:29:34 <rdococ> because sun rises in the east, duh
10:29:51 <int-e> there's no reason why east should be to the right
10:30:43 <rdococ> usually when we see an illustration of the earth, the north pole is near or at the top of the image. unless we live in a mirror, then east would be to the right.
10:31:29 <int-e> there's also no reason why a device that mimics the movement of the sun should use the ground as its reference; it makes much more sense to look at the sky
10:31:43 <int-e> (which, I believe, the Chinese actually do)
10:32:35 <rdococ> how about, instead of up representing north, have up represent up, and 6s would be where 12 is now on the clock
10:33:14 <int-e> to illustrate the first point, have a look at the map on http://www.japan-guide.com/e/e7116.html
10:33:17 <rdococ> 0s to the right, 6s upwards, 12s to the left, 18s downwards
10:34:35 <rdococ> do you care to explain?
10:37:56 <rdococ> *insert intentionally objectionable statement here to stop awkward silence*
10:40:07 <int-e> http://www.metafilter.com/136772/A-cartographic-history-of-why-North-not-East-or-South-is-up ... it appears that ultimately this is Ptolemy's fault.
10:42:56 <rdococ> thanks ptolemy, thanks to you my statements are no longer objectionable
10:43:21 <int-e> Anyway, I wanted a map like this https://i.imgur.com/Cc6gxWq.jpg or this, http://www.hi-ho.ne.jp/amago/b-streams/flytying/images-fly/TenkaraMap1.gif
10:45:13 <int-e> also, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South-up_map_orientation
10:45:36 <int-e> but you brought this up yourself.
10:45:59 <int-e> I was really looking for an east up orientation, but that seems to be quite rare.
10:47:08 <Phantom_Hoover> the fact that most of the inhabited land is in the northern hemisphere is probably one retroactive justification for it
10:50:29 <int-e> http://www.bash.org/?311375
10:52:49 <rdococ> my points are redder... and less objectionable...
10:55:18 <int-e> no, it's a client feature. http://int-e.eu/~bf3/tmp/filtered.png
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11:37:32 <rdococ> (... Awkward silence...)
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12:21:28 <lambdabot> oerjan said 13h 47m 17s ago: We already established Laval was there hth
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12:22:35 <boily> @tell oerjan ah! yes. well, brutal concrete architecture helps one focus on the déchéance of post-modern higher education in a context of external opulence.
12:22:40 <boily> @tell oerjan (hth)
12:41:53 <myname> i should filter colors
12:42:36 <rdococ> surely colors arent that distracting?
12:50:13 <boily> colours are good for your health.
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13:37:06 <rdococ> (uh not when used THAT much...)
13:37:54 <rdococ> (come on, boily, seriously...)
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13:39:18 <boily> sixteen seventeen eighteen nineteen twenty
13:39:30 <boily> colours only go up to 15. meh.
13:39:46 <myname> black on black are the best
13:40:24 <rdococ> spoiler alert you dun goofed
13:42:32 <rdococ> What does mapole mean?
13:43:39 <HackEgo> A mapole is a thwackamacallit built from maple according to Canadian standards.
13:43:51 <HackEgo> thwackamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
13:46:00 <boily> it's a maple pole. a mapole.
13:46:29 <int-e> it's not pineful, but painful.
13:54:23 <rdococ> sorry for the colors but its a little too fun
13:55:08 <rdococ> umm I'm going to go create a testing channel... if you want to follow me then use /whois
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14:06:52 <lambdabot> boily said 1h 44m 17s ago: ah! yes. well, brutal concrete architecture helps one focus on the déchéance of post-modern higher education in a context of external opulence.
14:07:44 <rdococ> ("Ack"?! what's that supposed to mean?!)
14:07:57 <boily> rdococ: it's not NAK hth.
14:08:43 <oerjan> rdococ: "Acknowledged", hth
14:09:37 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[CRalphabet]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43117&oldid=39620 * 2.218.203.250 * (-10) /* Implementation */
14:09:47 <boily> int-e: have you ever fed Graham's Number into Ackermann?
14:10:08 <oerjan> `` cat /dev/null >wisdom/nak
14:11:54 <rdococ> (What on earth are they on about...?)
14:11:57 <boily> Tanelle. that would be a reverse ackermann.
14:12:18 <boily> oerjan: *sigh* how am I going to format this on in the PDF...
14:12:23 <oerjan> boily: the funny thing is that feeding Graham's number into Ackermann is _far_ less of an increase than simply incrementing the index on it.
14:12:45 <oerjan> i.e. G_65 >>> A(G_64, G_64).
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14:12:59 <oerjan> boily: i suggest not acknowledging it hth
14:13:06 <boily> rdococ: don't worry. it'll all come to you in due time. fnord.
14:13:53 <boily> oerjan: oh. holy fungot in fizzie's host. I... G_65 is >>> than A(G_64, G_64)? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
14:13:53 <fungot> boily: does it work if you used an old mac
14:13:55 <Taneb> I keep thinking I've solved P=NP just as I fall asleep
14:14:04 <boily> fungot: probably not.
14:14:04 <fungot> boily: i'm using erc version 4.0 revision: fnord with gnu emacs, though.
14:14:08 <Taneb> Is this a normal problem?
14:14:17 <boily> rdococ: seriously.
14:14:41 <rdococ> Being serious here is objectionable.
14:14:44 * boily is very tempted to make an Airplane! reference...
14:14:53 <oerjan> boily: the G method of making humongous numbers more or less starts with ackermanns as the first, tiny step.
14:15:04 <oerjan> (not _exactly_ that, but close.)
14:15:06 * rdococ wonders what an "Airplane! reference" means...
14:15:21 <oerjan> rdococ: surely you must know Airplane!
14:15:33 <Taneb> rdococ, in some countries it is called Flying High!
14:15:46 <rdococ> I know Objection! but not this "Airplane!" stuff...?
14:15:52 <rdococ> and I forgot to unbold -.-
14:15:57 <boily> rdococ: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0080339/?ref_=nv_sr_1
14:15:57 <oerjan> i think in norway it was "Hjelp, vi flyr!"
14:16:53 <boily> anybody know how to get the translated titles of a movie on imdb?
14:16:55 <rdococ> why the exclamation mark?
14:17:55 <boily> it's part of the title.
14:19:16 <boily> ah! «Y a-t-il un pilote dans l'avion?» is the French version.
14:19:27 <boily> rdococ: see, no exclamation marks in French!
14:21:27 <rdococ> bea-cua--se????????????????????
14:21:43 <oerjan> beacuase is quebecois for because hth
14:22:12 <boily> rdococ: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z2Z23SAFVA
14:22:28 <rdococ> I hate the department of redundancy department.
14:22:33 <boily> oerjan: that would be «à cause» hth.
14:24:18 <rdococ> (I'd prefer Esperanto...)
14:25:57 <boily> I learned some Esperanto when I was in high school. (along with a little bit of Quenya and Sindarin. 8th and 9th grades were interesting times...)
14:26:47 <rdococ> (That's it, I'm making my own conlang...)
14:27:16 <rdococ> ...umm that S symbol didnt work did it...?
14:27:28 <MDude> Will it also be an esolang?
14:27:39 <boily> rdococ: unless I'm unicodly mistaken, it's a latin capital S, no more.
14:28:10 <rdococ> it was meant to be a greek capital letter sigma
14:28:30 <rdococ> but looks like it turned into an S somehow
14:28:54 <oerjan> älisil i ruom 1 sivoc 10 itë miascutû i
14:28:56 <rdococ> (IRC only supports ASCII and a few extensions, I guess)
14:30:01 <boily> すみませんが、ちょっと違うと思います。
14:30:46 <rdococ> (...mIRC certainly is objectionable.)
14:30:47 <MDude> Newer ones support unicode.
14:31:15 <MDude> I do not have such a client myself.
14:31:27 <rdococ> what client do you use that supports unicode?
14:32:31 <rdococ> I shall finally object to mIRC's stupidity. I cannot put up with it anymore.
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14:33:42 <MDude> Quickly, everyone else play Pheonix Wright so we can make a follow-up joke when he gets back.
14:34:26 <oerjan> sorry, i can pretend to know Airplane! but not that.
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14:40:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: wait: not found
14:40:51 <oerjan> `learn IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
14:40:53 <HackEgo> Learned 'irc': IRC is short for "Internet Relay Chat". It is named so because all the servers are constructed from relays.
14:48:16 <oerjan> <rdococ> this is why I would prefer an epoch of 6am (or 6pm in your derps), so 0 would be dawn <-- the time of dawn depends on season hth. in some parts of norway the sun doesn't always rise at all.
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14:50:40 <rdococ> I ended up downloading pidgin.
14:50:53 <oerjan> <rdococ> this is why I would prefer an epoch of 6am (or 6pm in your derps), so 0 would be dawn <-- the time of dawn depends on season hth. in some parts of norway the sun doesn't always rise at all.
14:51:18 <rdococ> but as an approximation...
14:51:49 <rdococ> so where were we... aha
14:51:59 <oerjan> #esoteric irc channel hth
14:52:01 <rdococ> does the Σ symbol work...?
14:52:31 <oerjan> wait, should there be an i in that
14:52:48 <boily> merveilleuse. with an e, and an i.
14:53:05 <boily> rdococ: non. c'est bin plus mieux en français, tsé :D
14:53:11 <oerjan> rdococ: ka så e gøye me de?
14:53:12 <rdococ> department of redundancy department
14:53:39 <rdococ> that doesn't display properly, except for the two sigmas at the end
14:54:12 <HackEgo> [U+1D72E MATHEMATICAL BOLD ITALIC CAPITAL SIGMA]
14:54:18 <int-e> the last one was a sum symbol; all the others were actually capital sigmas.
14:54:57 <int-e> (it doesn't work in my terminal, but my browser can handle them in http://codu.org/logs/log/_esoteric/2015-05-31 )
14:56:29 <rdococ> and how do the same character 6 times have different appearances?! Δ!!!
14:56:45 <rdococ> wait... theyre different...
14:57:04 <boily> rdococ: the wonders of Unicode, where everything is a codepoint an z-variants don't matter.
14:57:07 <oerjan> boily: nynorsk / southern dialect for "fun" hth
15:00:56 <int-e> rdococ: it's one of the greater silly features of Unicode, where the powers that be decided to encode into codepoints a particular choice of fonts in a typeface...
15:01:10 <int-e> ...but only for letters used as mathematical symbols.
15:03:21 <b_jonas> not among the more silly ideas of unicode
15:04:04 <boily> oerjan: Han Unification and all that kerfuffle.
15:04:07 <tswett> Well, mathematical writing is one of the few places where changing typographical details actually results in a change of meaning.
15:04:12 <int-e> they included a full set of (standard) chess pieces, but only ☖☗ for Shogi.
15:04:52 <int-e> that seems a bit biased.
15:05:04 <tswett> Not all of the Shogi symbols are recognizable Han characters, right?
15:05:50 <rdococ> is that there should be a new system
15:06:08 <boily> tswett: they have standard kanji representation. used in newspaper problems and records.
15:06:12 <int-e> rdococ: not really
15:06:40 <rdococ> a character's id would be 8x8 black-and-white image (64 bits) and would contain every character ever
15:06:51 <int-e> rdococ: as awful as Unicode is, at least it's a single standard that is being more or less universally adopted.
15:07:06 <tswett> But the kanji representation isn't necessarily the same as what actually appears on the piece.
15:08:05 <tswett> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shogi_narikyo.png doesn't look like "成香" to me. Or maybe 成香 isn't the same as the standard representation.
15:08:39 <rdococ> and scaling it up would use some kind of super scaling method that doesnt show the jagged shape
15:08:59 <int-e> tswett: I feel that there should be symbols having the proper Kanji inside the Shogi piece outline.
15:09:02 <rdococ> or my idea which was a combination of bicubic interpolation and nearest neighbour
15:09:23 <tswett> int-e: yeah, there probably should.
15:09:49 <rdococ> basically: bicubic interpolation average weight values, the color with the higher value would fill that pixel
15:10:17 <rdococ> sort of like if you drew a black line on white image, scaled it up with bicubic then saved it as 1-bit image
15:10:50 <boily> rdococ: have you seen https://github.com/nagadomi/waifu2x ? it's all the rage lately.
15:11:17 <boily> tswett: holy calligraphy batman! that indeed doesn't look like 成香 at all...
15:11:59 <tswett> It does look a fair bit like 仝.
15:12:09 <HackEgo> [U+4EDD CJK UNIFIED IDEOGRAPH-4EDD]
15:13:16 <boily> tswett: right. stuff promoted to golds are variations on 全.
15:15:36 <oerjan> * int-e filters colors. <-- reading the color codes in the logs is just _so_ nice.
15:15:56 <tswett> I bet 全, 今, 仝, and 个 are the standard print representations of those pieces, and they're not actually the same characters that are on the pieces, but rather other characters chosen for their resemblance to them.
15:19:36 <oerjan> i was going to paste, except the control characters are actually _there_ and so copy fine, just not shown by the browser.
15:23:04 <oerjan> `learn A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
15:23:06 <HackEgo> Learned 'thwackamacallit': A thwackamacallit is like a whatchamacallit, but more painful. See mapole.
15:31:37 <int-e> `? whatchamacallit
15:31:38 <HackEgo> whatchamacallit? ¯\(°_o)/¯
15:34:40 <tswett> Hey everyone! Remember that neural net?
15:34:41 <int-e> It's the dilemma of infinite /wisdom.
15:35:16 <tswett> I'm gonna do the same thing again, but with a stupidly huge net size. I'm thinking 1400.
15:35:46 <tswett> (Fifty years from now, 1400 will undoubtedly be considered tiny.)
15:36:38 <oerjan> i'm pretty sure by now the neural net must have taken over tswett's account. don't trust it!
15:37:08 <int-e> (I had the right association, but nevertheless, I don't remember that term... sigh.)
15:37:10 <tswett> I'm not sure that this virtual machine actually has enough virtual hard drive space. Lemme check on that.
15:37:58 <tswett> more (power I must) acquire, more Power,
15:38:49 <tswett> A hundred googlebugs. That's probably enough space.
15:39:09 <boily> oerjan: do you think tswett has become the next fungot generation?
15:39:10 <fungot> boily: there we go! go! gone! let's prepare our defenses!
15:39:49 <oerjan> boily: well with fungot clearly confirming it...
15:39:49 <fungot> oerjan: the f is different from mzlib's local. the short-hand is called a " retarded noob". which is to say you were
15:39:53 <tswett> Hey, where did all my hard drive space go?
15:39:57 <tswett> 300 GB are just missing.
15:40:39 <oerjan> fungot: so you're saying it's not smart enough to be a threat, yet?
15:40:39 <fungot> oerjan: if you don't have to have a new garbage collector to show him that cl isn't the only language with unused prefixes left right now. but i want to
15:41:27 <int-e> fungot: Please stop making sense.
15:41:32 <tswett> Huh, what's on this unmounted partition?
15:45:41 <tswett> It doesn't seem to contain anything important. I mean, it contains lots of stuff with the word "boot" in it. But there's probably only, like, a 20% chance that those are necessary for me to boot my computer.
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15:46:23 <boily> tswett: nuke the partition, and reboot! FOR SCIENCE!
15:46:28 <tswett> Ah, it's "the active system partition".
15:46:32 <Deewiant> If there's 300 GB of it there's a 100% chance that some of it is unnecessary
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15:48:33 <tswett> Then there's 97 GB of unallocated space.
15:49:45 <Deewiant> There's a 100% chance that your computer isn't reading 146 GB of data on boot
15:54:06 -!- oerjan has quit (Quit: (100-1/G_64)%).
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15:57:04 <tswett> Man, in a few moments, I'm going to have a pretty weird hard drive setup.
15:58:22 <tswett> I now have: the backup partition (341 GB), unallocated space (97 GB), the system partition (9 GB), unallocated space (136 GB), the C: partition (345 GB).
15:58:45 <tswett> I cannot extend the C: partition backwards.
16:05:25 <tswett> Blink blink. diskpart just created a non-continuous partition spanning both chunks of unallocated space.
16:05:35 <tswett> I didn't expect it to do that, but that happens to be exactly what I wanted.
16:16:13 <HackEgo> /home/hackbot/hackbot.hg/multibot_cmds/lib/limits: line 5: exec: metar: not found
16:16:25 <Taneb> Aaah which bot was it
16:18:42 <boily> it was ~. it shall be ~. but for now it's @.
16:20:00 -!- password2 has joined.
16:20:03 <Taneb> Anyway, that is Area 51
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16:35:36 <tswett> So the logs contain every byte except for two.
16:37:49 <tswett> I'm guessing null and carriage return.
16:38:53 <tswett> It occurs to me that training this net may take a really, really, really long time.
16:39:52 -!- variable has changed nick to constant.
16:42:26 <boily> tswett: do you have any snazzy graphical progress indicator? blinkenlights or whirling mechanical parts?
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16:46:02 <tswett> But it's graphically rendered text.
16:48:10 * tswett yanks some sticks out of the VM.
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16:59:10 <tswett> Ooh, look at that swap... and that free space?
16:59:30 <tswett> It's using swap *and* there's completely unused memory?
16:59:37 <tswett> All right, whatever floats its boat.
17:04:49 -!- Welo has joined.
17:06:16 <int-e> tswett: that's normal, Linux tends to think it's worthwhile to swap out data to make room for the file system cache.
17:08:53 <int-e> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swappiness
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17:33:10 <ais523> I was a little surprised that you did
17:33:28 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Maxsteele2]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43118&oldid=23379 * 37.248.255.236 * (+131) Added a reply to subsection "Hey..."
17:34:41 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43119&oldid=35252 * Rdebath * (+140) Checking the interpreter.
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17:39:48 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43120&oldid=43119 * Rdebath * (-29) Is not Trivially Turing Complete as the looping construct cannot emulate a while-switch
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17:44:55 <oren> Prolog has the porperty that facts about a program's state can be reported in prolog
17:45:19 -!- Tritonio_ has changed nick to Tritonio.
17:45:54 <oren> Which other porgraming languages have that porperty?
17:47:07 <ais523> oren: in Underlambda, you can capture the program's entire state in Underlambda (by design)
17:47:19 <ais523> i.e. specify what the stack and remaining program are in Underlambda syntax
17:47:26 <ais523> you can do that in Underload too, by implication
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17:56:43 <tswett> int-e: in "top", under "Mem free", doesn't that number exclude disk cache?
17:57:57 <tswett> Whelp, so far, the net has successfully performed 0 training rounds.
17:58:08 <tswett> In about, like... an hour?
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18:00:11 <oren> the neural nyetworking task
18:00:12 -!- monotone has joined.
18:00:53 <quintopia> oren: thats more of a metatask for the researcher
18:02:37 <oren> i think it's training on the IRC logs for this channel
18:03:40 <tswett> To create random logs that look like them.
18:04:00 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Talk:CLEB]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43121 * Rdebath * (+389) Huh? What's wrong with comment loops?
18:04:01 <tswett> The number of parameters is apparently 30,353,054.
18:06:01 -!- AnotherTest has quit (Ping timeout: 265 seconds).
18:07:23 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Emo]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43122&oldid=43120 * Rdebath * (+60) Grr wrong wiki.
18:08:00 <oren> (from scrollback) There are IRC clients that don't support unicode?
18:08:23 -!- AnotherTest has joined.
18:09:54 <oren> I mean, I thought irssi on terminal was about the most primitive irc client still used
18:10:18 <zzo38> My own IRC client cannot send non-ASCII characters, alhough any non-ASCII characters it receives are simply sent to the terminal emulator as is, so any encoding can be used and is not limited to UTF-8.
18:12:00 <zzo38> (Implementing it like this is necessary in order to do line-wrapping properly when other messages are received while you have an unfinished message being typed too.)
18:12:17 <tswett> 1200 is too big, let's try 1000.
18:12:45 * boily tries to resist his mattress' siren song, but fails his fortitude check.
18:13:19 -!- boily has quit (Quit: SUBMERGED CHICKEN).
18:13:56 <tswett> That sounds like a Will save to resist the urge to go climb into your mattress, or a Fortitude save to avoid just passing out.
18:16:18 <oren> そうですか？ だって、日本語で長い長いメセージを書いて、正しにラッピングするか？
18:17:20 <ais523> tswett: I'd expect it to be a straight Con check
18:17:28 <ais523> assuming we're talking D&D third edition
18:17:33 <int-e> tswett: yes it does
18:17:42 <ais523> basically because you don't want high-level characters to be able to stay awake indefinitely
18:17:59 <ais523> (apart from arguably the neversleeping paladin trick, but there's some debate about whether that actually works)
18:20:19 <zzo38> I have play Dungeons&Dragons game 3.5 edition. You may be correct but even then only the kind of creatures that cannot sleep, are allowed to stay awake indefinitely, would be how I would do anyways
18:20:19 -!- GeekDude has joined.
18:20:20 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Special:Log/newusers]] create * Jabutosama * New user account
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18:23:23 <oren> あいうえおかきくけこさしすせそたちつてとなにぬねのまみむめもやゆよらりるれろわをん一二三四五六七八九十百千万億月火水木金土日朝晩夜春夏秋冬晴雲雨雪雷
18:23:43 <oren> did that wrap correctly on everyone's screens?
18:24:17 <zzo38> I think so, although the terminal font can't display these characters
18:24:19 <ais523> it fits on one line to me, not sure if that counts as wrapping correctly
18:24:31 <zzo38> I have to copy/paste to something else to display the text properly.
18:25:04 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User:Jabutosama]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43123 * Jabutosama * (+449) made.
18:25:20 <ais523> !bfjoust growth2 nethack4.org/pastebin/growth2.bfjoust
18:25:27 <ais523> we do have a BF Joust bot in here, right?
18:25:43 <oren> Apparently some kind of tree in hebrew?
18:25:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_growth: 0.0
18:25:52 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_growth2: 6.2
18:25:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[User talk:Jabutosama]] N http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?oldid=43124 * Jabutosama * (+87) Created page with "Tell here your message to me (ﾉ◕ヮ◕)ﾉ*:･ﾟ✧ ✧ﾟ･: *ヽ(◕ヮ◕ヽ)"
18:26:21 <ais523> or, hmm, the scoring's on a different scale from what I'm used to
18:26:47 <ais523> !bfjoust growth2 nethack4.org/pastebin/growth2.bfjoust
18:26:49 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_growth2: 6.1
18:27:40 <ais523> hmm, growth2 does much better than that local, I have a feeling that EgoBot is failing to parse it correctly
18:28:59 <ais523> oh, I bet it's running the URL as a program
18:29:02 <ais523> rather than the file at that URL
18:29:06 <ais523> !bfjoust growth2 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/growth2.bfjoust
18:29:11 <EgoBot> Score for ais523_growth2: 54.7
18:29:30 <ais523> yay, now I get to describe it
18:30:13 <ais523> I wasn't expecting it to win, but I was testing against the zemhill hill; some of its worst matchups aren't on the egojoust hill
18:30:47 <oren> Anyway, it is supposed to show as a list of every hiragana, followed by numbers 123456789,10,100,1000,10000, followed by the abbrevation s of the days of the week, folled by morning evening and night, followed by the seasons, followed by some words for weather
18:31:50 <oren> oh and after 10000 is the word for 100000000 forgot that one
18:32:10 <ais523> it only marginally beats simple
18:32:23 <ais523> which is unsurprising, simple does quite well against modern "advanced" programs because it doesn't do things that get exploited
18:32:39 <ais523> in particular, growth2 is confused by old-fashioned forwards decoy setups
18:42:29 <fizzie> ais523: it's !zjoust for zemhill now.
18:42:42 <fizzie> ais523: Although I'm not entirely sure how well it's functioning.
18:42:46 <ais523> !zjoust growth2 http://nethack4.org/pastebin/growth2.bfjoust
18:43:11 <ais523> EgoBot was pretty slow
18:43:17 <fizzie> The console says "done" already.
18:43:30 <fizzie> I'll have to look into it, but I'm a bit busy now.
18:43:31 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43125&oldid=35499 * Zzo38 * (+985) Defined: "directed graph", "multigraph", "RDF graph"
18:46:51 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Graph]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43126&oldid=43125 * Zzo38 * (+98) Define "planar graph"
18:53:58 <tswett> Aw, the neural net got OOM'd.
18:55:59 <tswett> Is there a Linux command which outputs the current kernel time (the same number that the kernel puts before timestamps in messages printed to the console)?
18:57:24 <ais523> tswett: I'd guess it'd be the same value on one of the POSIX timers
18:57:33 <ais523> and I think there's a command to print those but I can't remember what it is
18:57:43 <tswett> Wonder if I can find something in /proc or /sys.
18:59:24 <b_jonas> tswett: I'm not sure what that number is, but try perl -we 'use Time::HiRes; print Time::HiRes::clock_gettime(Time::HiRes::CLOCK_MONOTONIC()), $/;'
18:59:51 <b_jonas> that will print in seconds though
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19:00:44 <tswett> Looks like that did it. Thanks.
19:01:05 <tswett> Ooh, but I think also this:
19:01:27 <tswett> I'm not sure that that's the same number as the kernel message timestamps, but it seems close.
19:03:31 <ais523> actually, the amazing thing about growth2 is
19:03:41 <ais523> playing it against simple on tape length 25 (the default) actually gives a really clear view of how it works
19:03:55 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[BF Joust strategies]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43127&oldid=40554 * Ais523 * (+3004) /* 2015 */ because we couldn't go a year without a new hill-topper
19:04:10 <ais523> I've been working on other strategies too but I haven't managed to make them work as well
19:05:11 <myname> "2016 will be the year without a new bf joust hill-topper. also linux desktop"
19:05:41 <ais523> myname: seriously, I was looking at BF Joust on esolang
19:05:45 <ais523> saw the 2015 section wasn't there
19:05:59 <ais523> thought "wow, I must go win the hill before the year's out so that we don't have an empty section"
19:06:16 <ais523> then looked through my "good but not hill-topping yet" programs to see which I could try to improve into a hill-topper
19:06:47 <ais523> the other nice thing about growth is that it doesn't have a single special case aimed at a specific program rather than a general strategy (although it has lots of cases for handling the various possible strategies)
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19:23:39 <int-e> tswett: that seems to be a tricky question. For me, dmesg -T shows timestamps in the future...
19:24:58 <fizzie> Double quotes for emphasis: impossible to take seriously.
19:25:00 <int-e> tswett: I have a 'date' output in my prompt, that's what I was comparing to.
19:25:03 <fizzie> [[ A "decent starting place to furnish your home", this long-standing, "contemporary" housewares company offers "designer furniture at modest prices", plus "top-of-the-range" products from kitchenware to bedding; the "extremely busy" staff are generally "attentive", and fans report the "clean lines" of its goods "stand the test of time". ]]
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19:33:27 <ais523> btw, one fun "innovation" in growth/growth2: not using an offset on its clear (after the first 99 cycles)
19:33:51 <ais523> decoys and offsets have both got so big that just going back to 0 is now arguably the best strategy
19:33:57 <ais523> (actually I think that's how monolith ended up topping the hill too)
19:53:03 <tswett> Hmmmm. I want to come up with a language for creating BF Joust programs.
19:54:07 <tswett> fizzie: it's easier to take seriously if you suppose that the things in quotation marks are actual quotes.
19:55:32 <tswett> I think I'll write a Haskell EDSL for it.
19:55:46 <tswett> Back when I knew less, I'd have thought, "I should use a monad!"
19:56:26 <tswett> And maybe I should use a monad, but I should decide what the monad represents before I try to use a monad.
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20:15:11 <b_jonas> tswett: I think the uptime and the monotonous time differs if the computer was suspended/hybernated
20:15:28 <b_jonas> in any case, some two numbers differ when that happens, because one of them doesn't count the time while suspended
20:15:53 <b_jonas> tswett: also, there are multiple timers that are basically the time since boot, but can slowly drift apart
20:15:59 <b_jonas> so it's hard to tell if you're really using the right timer
20:16:12 <b_jonas> uptime and the monotonous clock and the raw clock are all such timers
20:16:27 <b_jonas> the raw clock isn't corrected for time drift to be steady
20:16:36 <b_jonas> but is still monotonous of course
20:16:46 <b_jonas> I don't remember how the suspend stuff works
20:23:04 <int-e> tswett: https://github.com/int-e/cpu-clocks
20:23:22 <int-e> (for fun, there must be a better way for doing this)
20:25:02 <int-e> in use: http://sprunge.us/hbXQ
20:25:37 <tswett> So that's what a kernel module looks like.
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20:29:01 <int-e> a trivial one at least; it's mostly pasted from tutorials :)
20:31:23 <Taneb> tswett, a kernel module is the elements in a module that map to 0 under a given module homomorphism
20:31:52 <int-e> wouldn't that be a module kernel...
20:34:09 <Taneb> Although I believe it is a module in its own right!
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20:45:13 <oren> b_jonas: I think you mean monotonic. monotonous means boring
20:46:22 <ais523> repetitive, really, more than boring
20:46:25 <ais523> although repetitive is often boring too
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21:37:48 -!- oren has changed nick to O}\3|\|.
21:38:27 <O}\3|\|> Apparently I can't start a nick with a number
21:39:17 -!- O}\3|\| has changed nick to []}\E|\|.
21:39:32 -!- []}\E|\| has changed nick to []}\3|\|.
21:40:36 -!- []}\3|\| has changed nick to oren.
21:44:49 <GeekDude> }\ is not a particularly good r
21:45:08 <GeekDude> thoug I don't have anything better, so good job!
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21:56:50 <int-e> tromp_: http://sprunge.us/PVLe ... it's too late for me to write a coherent email.
22:08:10 <oerjan> * tswett yanks some sticks out of the VM. <-- oh no, a critical VM
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22:38:21 <ais523> hmm, how do I find a bunch of people to get interested in BF Joust?
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22:48:35 <ais523> I found another way to beat death_to_defence with a defence program, which I'm happy about
22:48:42 <ais523> but it doesn't even get 50% against the field yet
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23:16:43 <HackEgo> [wiki] [[Developers]] http://esolangs.org/w/index.php?diff=43128&oldid=29376 * 24.150.81.84 * (+68) /* External resources */
23:34:35 <oerjan> ^ul ((Developers! )S:^):^
23:34:35 <fungot> Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! Developers! ...too much output!
23:37:10 <ais523> best error message placement ever :-)
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